EEVblog #698 - GPU Video Rendering

[eripaha]

This episode felt like terrible disaster to me. Dave you should stick to what you know best. 

You should quit complaining about video you don't like, that's twice in as many posts, no one is forcing you to watch them, they are clearly titled.

Sorry dave if i offended you. You just always ask people to tell you what they think of your videos so i did.

[EEVblog]

Sorry dave if i offended you. You just always ask people to tell you what they think of your videos so i did.

Bitching about the subject of clearly one-off opportunistic videos does not offer any valuable feedback at all.
Now if I was to start making regular train videos, you'd have something to complain about.

[george graves]

In this tread I learned.  That...

a.) Don't ask the internet full of engineers/IT guys about video production. It will devolve into read/write hard drive debates
b.) If you're being cheap, and expect pro results.... you're going to have a bad time. 
c.) Dave is always right.  How dare you question our supreme leader!
d.) 60FPS is a novility.  Yes people like it cause it's new.  So then why not shoot in 3d?  Come on dave - you're future proofing!
e.) Dave's head has swelled. He's now a Diva!  Go on with your bad self!

 

[EEVblog]

c.) Dave is always right.  How dare you question our supreme leader!

And George is always demonstrably and embarrassingly wrong or off the mark about this stuff, even though he touts himself as an expert 

[westcovinadodge]

I suggest a lease return dual socket 1366 system. In America, with cheap shipping the best bang for the buck right now is a Lenovo d20. 139.95
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lenovo-ThinkStation-D20-Barebones-Add-your-own-CPU-Memory-HDD-Video-/111486648261?pt=Desktop_PCs&hash=item19f51f3fc5

oops that one needs fans
how about
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lenovo-ThinkStation-D20-4158-WKG-Dual-Xeon-Dual-Core-1-87-24GB-RAM-NVIDIA-FX1300-/390981977014?pt=Desktop_PCs&hash=item5b085783b6

Then you can get a couple of xeon x5650s 150.00
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-2-MATCH-PAIR-SLBV3-INTEL-XEON-X5650-6-CORE-2-66GHz-12MB-6-40GT-s-95W-PROC-/351092507948?pt=US_Server_CPUs_Processors&hash=item51bebe852c

for another 100 you could get a pair of x5670s
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-pair-dual-INTEL-XEON-2-X5670-2-93GHz-Hex-6-Core-12MB-LGA1366-SLBV7-/151484221598?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item234529c89e

I have a d30, my d20 is much better. bang for the buck wise
Oh, and you get 2 16 lane pcie slots if the gpu offload thing works out

Cheers and keep up the good work

[Corporate666]

In this tread I learned.  That...

a.) Don't ask the internet full of engineers/IT guys about video production. It will devolve into read/write hard drive debates
b.) If you're being cheap, and expect pro results.... you're going to have a bad time. 
c.) Dave is always right.  How dare you question our supreme leader!
d.) 60FPS is a novility.  Yes people like it cause it's new.  So then why not shoot in 3d?  Come on dave - you're future proofing!
e.) Dave's head has swelled. He's now a Diva!  Go on with your bad self!

 

What's wrong with 60fps?

I don't see any downside for the user at all.  I can see downside for Dave, since he's the one that needs to do the processing... but since he's clearly willing to do that, why on earth would we complain about it?  Unless I'm missing something, he's not saying 60fps content will be at the expense of quantity of content. 

Some of you guys sound like luddites complaining to the cable company that you don't want HDTV.

[Lightages]

60fps is good if people want it and it increases views and makes more money. It is also fine with me if Dave wants the extra burden. It makes no difference to me if there is more work on the other end. I enjoy the videos in 30fps but if Dave wants to and his other audience wants it, who cares??!!

I am also a tech geek and Dave's investigations and tribulations are fun to watch. If you don't like the content then don't watch it!

[yym]

You should give QuickSync a try.
It is true that the quality is somewhat lower then software encoder (X264), but the difference is not that obvious.
I can barely tell the difference between them.

Regarding speed, QuickSync is lightning fast, in my tests it was at least 3..6 times faster than CPU only or CUDA (CUDA for video encoding is a joke really)

I think for eevblog videos quicksync is more than enough, you know .. video quality (or framerate) is not something one values in a eevblog video 

[Fungus]

What's wrong with 60fps?

Wrong question.

I don't see any downside for the user at all. 

The correct question is: What's the upside?

It's a video of somebody opening parcels, not a low-level flight over a landscape. No high motion at all.

There might be more advantage in switching to 30fps than switching to 50fps. If there is a visible difference between 25fps and 50fps it will be because there's slightly less frame sync issues  when it's viewed on 60Hz monitors.

(maybe people could watch the 25fps videos with their monitors set to 75Hz and see how they like it...)

[george graves]

c.) Dave is always right.  How dare you question our supreme leader!

And George is always demonstrably and embarrassingly wrong or off the mark about this stuff, even though he touts himself as an expert 

Recap: So you post "I have a problem rendering at 60 fps"
And I say, "Upgrade your PC, here are some spec, and BTW - you're not a football broadcast, auto racing, so you don't even need 60FPS  - that's silly..."

I never claimed to be an expert.  But...I pointed you to a link of some people who are.  That's all.  You may know electronics, but your video production complexity is minimal - and so is your background in it.  And that's fine.  The EEVblog doesn't need it.  It's a "talking heads" video - it doesn't get easier then that!  Do I need to see you point a stick at a capacitor at 60FPS?  Again, it's blinking a LED with an arduino.  You're doing it cause you can.

You can do what ever you want.  Just if you ask the interwebs for advice, and someone gives you some you disagree with, just ignore it.

And I still stand by my claim that 24P would be more appropriate for your work. Higher quality, and/or faster upload times.

You keep saying that people *love* the 60FPS - why do they love it?  To see you tun a knob at 60fps?  Enlighten me...I simply don't get it.

(ducks before Dave gets sick of my calling him out on his BS and bans me!)

You have been hounding and trolling me about video production for years, and quite frankly I'm sick of hearing about it from you, please don't post in here again, I no longer want to hear your opinion on the matter.

No - not a year - only a month - silly rabbit.   You "I'm awesome, and my need for 60 fps is backed up by others" is crazy

[EEVblog]

(ducks before Dave gets sick of my calling him out on his BS and bans me!)

You have been hounding and trolling me about video production for years, and quite frankly I'm sick of hearing about it from you, please don't post in here again, I no longer want to hear your opinion on the matter.

[Corporate666]

What's wrong with 60fps?

Wrong question.

The correct question is: What's the upside?

It's a video of somebody opening parcels, not a low-level flight over a landscape. No high motion at all.

There might be more advantage in switching to 30fps than switching to 50fps. If there is a visible difference between 25fps and 50fps it will be because there's slightly less frame sync issues  when it's viewed on 60Hz monitors.

(maybe people could watch the 25fps videos with their monitors set to 75Hz and see how they like it...)

There is no 'question' to Dave at all.  What on earth makes non-paying viewers think they are entitled to any sort of explanation from the content creator in the first place, let alone one that satisfies their objections?  It's much simpler than that... Dave doesn't owe you or me or anyone else an explanation.  Nevertheless, he gave one, which was futureproofing and some people like 60fps (me included).  I hope you're not arrogant enough to think you know what people like better than they do? 

The fact that some want it and that Dave is willing to do it is all the explanation/justification that is needed.  Given that, it seems a lot of folks have opinions on what the best course of action is... but from the testing we've seen, the answer is clear.  It's a straight CPU horsepower problem.  There is no way around that, so short of outsourcing rendering (Dave says not an option) or more automation (also not an option), there is no other choice but a faster machine.

It's a curious characteristic of the Internet that people aren't able to just answer a question without also needing to evaluate the process that led to the question and attempting to overlay their opinion on the matter to the question asker and get upset if they don't conform.  Do people do that in real life also? 

[Corporate666]

Recap: So you post "I have a problem rendering at 60 fps"
And I say, "Upgrade your PC, here are some spec, and BTW - you're not a football broadcast, auto racing, so you don't even need 60FPS  - that's silly..."

That's simply not true.  You said he should switch to an SSD, upgrade to a higher end editing package with better GPU intergration, and check his drivers.  The reality is that NONE of those things are correct.  When called out on that, you changed track to "well why do you need 60fps anyway". 

I never claimed to be an expert.  But...I pointed you to a link of some people who are.  That's all.  You may know electronics, but your video production complexity is minimal - and so is your background in it.  And that's fine.  The EEVblog doesn't need it.  It's a "talking heads" video - it doesn't get easier then that!  Do I need to see you point a stick at a capacitor at 60FPS?  Again, it's blinking a LED with an arduino.  You're doing it cause you can.

Doesn't matter what you claim, it's what you do and say that show your intention.  You're telling the guy that built a very successful blog that you know better than him what to give to the consumers.  And you're telling the consumers that what they want isn't really what they need.  Classic case of "detached egghead syndrome" - the type that don't get why people buy things or do things and just gripe that they should do something else instead.  Meanwhile, people who DO "get it" are out there making money and creating satisfied customers. 

You can do what ever you want.  Just if you ask the interwebs for advice, and someone gives you some you disagree with, just ignore it.

It's always a good idea to ignore bad advice, isn't it?  Whether it's someone saying an SSD and Avid are the solution to a CPU speed problem or a homeopath telling a cancer patient that they need to align their Chi.  Bullshit is bullshit in any field.

And I still stand by my claim that 24P would be more appropriate for your work. Higher quality, and/or faster upload times.

Except massive swaths of Youtubers are moving to 60fps because consumers like it.  Perhaps all those dopey consumers just need a "Supreme leader" to think for them and tell them what they really like, since they don't really know what's good for them?  Someone who knows better than them what they want.  Someone like... you!  If only you were the supreme leader, everything would make sense!      The irony!

You keep saying that people *love* the 60FPS - why do they love it?  To see you tun a knob at 60fps?  Enlighten me...I simply don't get it.

Detached egghead syndrome... "I don't love it, so anyone else who does is wrong, because I am the authority by which all things are judged".  Good luck with that.

[Fungus]

Dave doesn't owe you or me or anyone else an explanation.

Never said he did.

Nevertheless, he gave one, which was futureproofing and some people like 60fps (me included).  I hope you're not arrogant enough to think you know what people like better than they do? 

I could understand moving to 4k resolution as "futureproofing".

Increased frame rate? Not so much.

(it's a guy opening parcels, removing screws and and turning knobs, not some high-movement video...)

If higher frame rates are going to cause any production problems/delays at all then I say it's not worth it.

[EEVblog]

I could understand moving to 4k resolution as "futureproofing".

It's not juts about that, it's also about experimenting with and making do with what you have to hand.
I don't have any 4K capable cameras, but 50/60fps is available to me with the gear I already use. So I tried it and a lot of people like it.

(it's a guy opening parcels, removing screws and and turning knobs, not some high-movement video...)

So a few say. Shame about all those people who like it provides an increased viewing quality for them.

[EEVblog]

Corporate666 nailed it 

[coppice]

I could understand moving to 4k resolution as "futureproofing".

It's not just about that, it's also about experimenting with and making do with what you have to hand.
I don't have any 4K capable cameras, but 50/60fps is available to me with the gear I already use. So I tried it and a lot of people like it.

The 50P/60P doesn't add much to your studio videos, but it really improves things when you are out and about and hand holding.

I think another year and there will be a rich choice of 4k cameras. Its quite impressive what a Samsung Galaxy S5 can do at 4k, with its nasty little lens, but there aren't many reasonably priced options right now.

[DanielS]

There might be more advantage in switching to 30fps than switching to 50fps. If there is a visible difference between 25fps and 50fps it will be because there's slightly less frame sync issues  when it's viewed on 60Hz monitors.

I agree that 25/50p seems like a silly choice for a web-based platform where the vast majority of viewers will be watching on a 60Hz display. Eliminating the unnecessary pull-up/down conversion would likely help almost just as much.

[Corporate666]

I could understand moving to 4k resolution as "futureproofing".

Increased frame rate? Not so much.

(it's a guy opening parcels, removing screws and and turning knobs, not some high-movement video...)

If higher frame rates are going to cause any production problems/delays at all then I say it's not worth it.

Again, not to sound like a total dick but why is it that the users need to understand (aka - agree with it)?  If Mercedes puts 19" wheels on their car and I object because it's more rotating mass... I don't think they owe me an explanation that satisfied my objections.  Why would it be different for Dave?

But I can speculate... I just bought a new motherboard with a heat sink that includes glowing red LED's shining through plastic slots.  It looks cool... totally and completely useless for heat disspiation (worse, if anything) and adds nothing but expense.  But it does look nice.  There's nothing wrong with indulging the consumers desire for a sexy product, whether it's high frame rates or cool illuminated logos.  If we all consumed based on just what we need - we could all live in mobile trailers in lots near our workplace, have crew cuts and eat Soylent Green every day. 

As for Dave's videos...I imagine that having a single process is better than having different ones based on what he's shooting, and standardizing on the best is easier.  Also, he does some outdoor videos and I can imagine that waveforms on a 'scope screen or color changing lights or other such things could benefit from 60fps.

But at the end of the day, it goes back to cornering a Mercedes engineer and demanding to know why they are using 19" wheels when you have reams of data showing that 17" wheels are superior for performance... the guy doesn't owe you (or me) an explanation that suits our thought process.

[joeyjr]

While veiwing the build you did for your new video PC using a 3770K I noticed  the location where you placed the memory was in the first two connectors. This seemed odd, if I'm not mistaken, since the 1155 socket supports duel channel memory and are color coded.  Hopefully this was just an oversite during the video. If not, for the best performance you may need to check your manual for the correct location using two dimms. Upgrading your system maybe the cheaper way in the long run than expensive GPU's to improve rendering times. Anyway, this is my first post and hope this will be of some use. Thanks Dave, this was a good one and for all your hard work! 

[george graves]

But at the end of the day, it goes back to cornering a Mercedes engineer and demanding to know why they are using 19" wheels when you have reams of data showing that 17" wheels are superior for performance... the guy doesn't owe you (or me) an explanation that suits our thought process.

The Mercedes engineer isn't on youtube, with a forum, that encourages debates on the mater.

Welcome to the internet.  If you can't handle someone calling you out of your complete and obvious BS, it's not the place for you.

[EEVblog]

Welcome to the internet.  If you can't handle someone calling you out of your complete and obvious BS, it's not the place for you.

Perhaps you didn't understand me the first time George, please don't post in this thread again.

[cpuerror]

I think the high frame rate is great for certain applications like a tour of a factory with high speed machinery, but I don't understand the benefit of watching Dave open parcels or looking at a data sheet at 60fps.

 Nonetheless, the only beef I have with 60 fps is that my connection can stream 1080p/30 but not at 60 so I am down to only 720p streaming but at 50/60 fps.

[Fungus]

(it's a guy opening parcels, removing screws and and turning knobs, not some high-movement video...)

If higher frame rates are going to cause any production problems/delays at all then I say it's not worth it.

Again, not to sound like a total dick but why is it that the users need to understand
[/quote]

They don't, but Dave seems to like feedback.

It seems the best (only?) way to speed up video rendering is to get more CPU cores. Intel does an i7 with 8 cores+hyperthreading - 16 cores altogether. Maybe that's the one to go for.

Not exactly cheap though... 

[gildasd]

Stupid question (probably):
If a dual Xeon board is out of reach price wise, would a dual Opteron be an option?
I tried to find information about their use for video, to no avail...


(that, or an ACPISB: Analogue Converter Powered by an Iintern on a Stationary Bicycle)