It has not really fixed my jitter issue, although I had almost none before the update, perhaps even a little less it's hard to tell.
(http://u.cubeupload.com/Chryseus/eWwPwQ.png)
Isn't really that bad so I can live with it.
and what would you expect from a $500 scope ? according to the pictures you attached, your scope was and is just fine.
Isn't really that bad so I can live with it.
and what would you expect from a $500 scope ? according to the pictures you attached, your scope was and is just fine.
The output of the PLL is pretty awful, for $500 I'd certainly expect it to be better than that in a piece of test equipment, while the actual effect on my scope can be pretty much ignored it still doesn't excuse the failure on Rigol's part to properly check the PLL and the associated components. :palm:
Are you sure that is jitter and not just persistance? Make sure persistence levels is turned to none.
Are you sure that is jitter and not just persistance? Make sure persistence levels is turned to none.
There is no "none" for persistence on the DS1004Z series. This I hate. There is always persistence, minimum and some intermediate settings, and infinite. If you want to see the raw signal you need to set to infinite.
and what would you expect from a $500 scope ?
and what would you expect from a $500 scope ?I would expect a PLL that performs close to its reference design capabilities through the application-specific operating range out of any properly designed product at any price point since there is practically no material cost difference between a good and bad PLL circuit based on the same crystal and PLL chip.
and what would you expect from a $500 scope ?
There is no "none" for persistence on the DS1004Z series. This I hate. There is always persistence, minimum and some intermediate settings, and infinite. If you want to see the raw signal you need to set to infinite.
and what would "none" do ? redraw the waveform many times a second with 100% intensity ? that would yield a flickering thick line => no added value in that ;) (just my very opinion)
There should be a no persistence option, period. I don't want my scope hiding information from me if I want to see it.Then you should turn off intensity grading as well since that is effectively short-term persistence.
There is no "none" for persistence on the DS1004Z series. This I hate. There is always persistence, minimum and some intermediate settings, and infinite. If you want to see the raw signal you need to set to infinite.
and what would "none" do ? redraw the waveform many times a second with 100% intensity ? that would yield a flickering thick line => no added value in that ;) (just my very opinion)
There is sometimes a bit of detail hidden in the displayed signal when there is any persistence. Try it. Look at a waveform and then turn persistence to infinite and you will see some hidden detail. This is only a partial solution as there is garbage on the screen from the infinite persistence. There should be a no persistence option, period. I don't want my scope hiding information from me if I want to see it.
Sorry but is there a link to the new firmware, somewhere?
Thanks
Chris
However, it seems to me that the scope now boots significantly slower post-update. Is that normal or is there something funny going on with my unit?
However, it seems to me that the scope now boots significantly slower post-update. Is that normal or is there something funny going on with my unit?
I think my unit start up a little bit longer, too. I haven't checked the starting time before update so I can't compare it.
Hi, in the Video I cant see any decoupling capacitor around the ADF4360. According the datasheet (page 7, table 4) there must be one on pin 2 and pin 6 to ground "as short as possible"!
Decoupling capacitors and their right positioning are very important. They must be on the same side like the IC, and no via allowed between the capacitor an the IC-pin.
I think that will significantly improve the PLL performance (noise, jitter).
And don´t forget a decoupling capacitor on the supply of the 25 MHz oszillator!
Also, I would like to note that at first (as suggested by Rigol engineer) I have upgraded the bootloader of my scope, then I upgraded firmware to version 00.04.02 SP3 and finally to 00.04.02 SP4.Can you explain "bootloader upgrade"? On the officially published Rigol's update there is only firmware. I first time listen about bootloader update.
I'm not sure if such procedure is necessary (Dave didn't do that on video) but that is what I got from Rigol and I have no reason not to listen to their advices.
At last I can enjoy my DSO as it is written on the screen after successful upgrade precedure :scared:
Honestly I was surprised when I read that bootloader needs to be updated.So, I think booloader update means - step by step upgrade from 00.04.01 SP2->00.04.02 SP3>00.04.02 SP4, not direct.
To be 100% accurate below you can read an e-mail I got from Rigol:
"To be on the save side, I suggest to upgrade first to 00.04.02 SP3 and afterwards to 00.04.02 SP4
Therefore please start with the bootloader update... followed from the Firmware update 00.04.02 SP3
afterwards with the Firmware 00.04.02 SP4"
I had the same firmware version as Dave on the video, 00.04.01 SP2. As you could see he simply loaded 00.04.02. SP4 firmware without any additional steps. Probably method suggested by Rigol engineer is super safe way of doing the same thing.
It is a bit strange that Dave did not provide a link with the original post.Thanks for posting the link, Lightages.
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/ct/1579/s-0518-1412/Bct/l-sf-lead-0006/l-sf-lead-0006:16888/ct2_0/1?sid=W41SWJyI3 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/ct/1579/s-0518-1412/Bct/l-sf-lead-0006/l-sf-lead-0006:16888/ct2_0/1?sid=W41SWJyI3)
before Boot Time 32 s | 0 µs (http://i.imgur.com/zpH8eSHs.png) (http://i.imgur.com/zpH8eSH.png) | 5 µs (http://i.imgur.com/vqPuP5is.png) (http://i.imgur.com/vqPuP5i.png) | AC Trigger Coupling (http://i.imgur.com/F98sCgAs.png) (http://i.imgur.com/F98sCgA.png) |
after Boot Time 34 s | 0 µs (http://i.imgur.com/zmtQ2fVs.png) (http://i.imgur.com/zmtQ2fV.png) | 5 µs (http://i.imgur.com/GNN9FLss.png) (http://i.imgur.com/GNN9FLs.png) | AC Trigger Coupling (http://i.imgur.com/VpsKakhs.png) (http://i.imgur.com/VpsKakh.png) |
Actually the worst-case position is 5 us (MICROseconds), not 5 ns (NANOseconds), since the timing modulation is 100 kHz. So looks like you checked a delay that was 1000x too short, no wonder you did not see any noticeable jitter... :=)If you look at his actual screen dumps, they show 5µs as expected. His 5ns titles were just brain farts.
Is this just due to the 250MSa/s that the scope is only capable with 3 or 4 enabled channels?This is not jitter; this is noise and some of it is indeed attributable to the lower sampling rate when using two or more channels.
Is this just due to the 250MSa/s that the scope is only capable with 3 or 4 enabled channels?This is not jitter; this is noise and some of it is indeed attributable to the lower sampling rate when using two or more channels.
I'll search some nice literature online about Sample Rates vs Bandwidth and i guess I'll find our friend Nyquist introducing me again her daughter Aliasing :)
I have a DS1054Z "upgraded" to 100MHz.
Most probably is just me with a low knoledge of DSOs basics, but to verify the new firmware i was playing with a 20MHz oscillator and notice that if I enable 3 or 4 channels the signal jitters.
Is this just due to the 250MSa/s that the scope is only capable with 3 or 4 enabled channels?
I've tried with 9MHz and 4MHz with the same result.
Mauro
It is one form of aliasing.
Your signal have frequency components over Nyquist and these produce classic "corner wobbling". It is well explained in many places, example in some Agilent(Keyshit) papers. (also there is Rigol very poor implementation if "Sin(x)/x" fake)
Ooops, must have been looking at my scope upside down (http://i.imgur.com/dvPONjU.gif)Actually the worst-case position is 5 us (MICROseconds), not 5 ns (NANOseconds), since the timing modulation is 100 kHz. So looks like you checked a delay that was 1000x too short, no wonder you did not see any noticeable jitter... :=)If you look at his actual screen dumps, they show 5µs as expected. His 5ns titles were just brain farts.
Most probably is just me with a low knoledge of DSOs basics, but to verify the new firmware i was playing with a 20MHz oscillator and notice that if I enable 3 or 4 channels the signal jitters.Interesting, I took a look myself.
Is this just due to the 250MSa/s that the scope is only capable with 3 or 4 enabled channels?
I've tried with 9MHz and 4MHz with the same result.
Mauro
Like the awful quality CapXon capacitors all through the power supply?and what would you expect from a $500 scope ?
I would expect that they had checked that their phase locked loops were actually locked! If not just stuff an RC oscillaroe in there!
Ditto for a $200 scope.
If their engineering appears to be, um, "slapdash" in one area then it probably is in others too.
Really. :o :palm:Like the awful quality CapXon capacitors all through the power supply?and what would you expect from a $500 scope ?
I would expect that they had checked that their phase locked loops were actually locked! If not just stuff an RC oscillaroe in there!
Ditto for a $200 scope.
If their engineering appears to be, um, "slapdash" in one area then it probably is in others too.
Really. :o :palm:Like the awful quality CapXon capacitors all through the power supply?and what would you expect from a $500 scope ?
I would expect that they had checked that their phase locked loops were actually locked! If not just stuff an RC oscillaroe in there!
Ditto for a $200 scope.
If their engineering appears to be, um, "slapdash" in one area then it probably is in others too.
Oh dear.
Can others confirm this?
Agent24 can you post a photo?
where can I get a copy of the new firmware?
Cheers
Ned
It's probably not going well with your Siglent sales is it ? :)Really. :o :palm:Like the awful quality CapXon capacitors all through the power supply?and what would you expect from a $500 scope ?
I would expect that they had checked that their phase locked loops were actually locked! If not just stuff an RC oscillaroe in there!
Ditto for a $200 scope.
If their engineering appears to be, um, "slapdash" in one area then it probably is in others too.
Oh dear.
Can others confirm this?
Agent24 can you post a photo?
I've seen so many blown CapXons on Badcaps.net and replaced many myself, mostly in LCD monitors. I don't know which brand Dave thinks is worse than CapXon, maybe Samxon, but AFAIK they are actually better, though the Samxon GF series seem to be pretty horrible.To be fair, the majority of blown CapXon caps are put in applications they are grossly under-spec'd for in the first place, so a large part of their failure is due to negligent design from the downstream product engineering: if you take the best caps ever made and run them at 4-10X their rated ripple current in an environment where they may be exposed to temperatures over 80C, as is often the case in poorly designed SMPS, they will fail prematurely too. The products could also be engineered for failure: stress the caps just enough to guarantee the PSU will fail soon after the warranty expires.
It is one form of aliasing.
Your signal have frequency components over Nyquist and these produce classic "corner wobbling". It is well explained in many places, example in some Agilent(Keyshit) papers. (also there is Rigol very poor implementation if "Sin(x)/x" fake)
Yes, in this few minutes I had a very pleasant reading of the following paper:
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5732EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5732EN.pdf)
Thanks to everyone for the quick and friendly feedback.
Mauro
I've seen so many blown CapXons on Badcaps.net and replaced many myself, mostly in LCD monitors. I don't know which brand Dave thinks is worse than CapXon, maybe Samxon, but AFAIK they are actually better, though the Samxon GF series seem to be pretty horrible.To be fair, the majority of blown CapXon caps are put in applications they are grossly under-spec'd for in the first place, so a large part of their failure is due to negligent design from the downstream product engineering: if you take the best caps ever made and run them at 4-10X their rated ripple current in an environment where they may be exposed to temperatures over 80C, as is often the case in poorly designed SMPS, they will fail prematurely too. The products could also be engineered for failure: stress the caps just enough to guarantee the PSU will fail soon after the warranty expires.
The Fact that a major Asian manufacturer is using these famous caps might not concern you but is sure as hell concerns me.It's probably not going well with your Siglent sales is it ? :)Really. :o :palm:Like the awful quality CapXon capacitors all through the power supply?and what would you expect from a $500 scope ?
I would expect that they had checked that their phase locked loops were actually locked! If not just stuff an RC oscillaroe in there!
Ditto for a $200 scope.
If their engineering appears to be, um, "slapdash" in one area then it probably is in others too.
Oh dear.
Can others confirm this?
Agent24 can you post a photo?
In the same environment, where one brand of capacitor fails while the others do not, and that brand fails consistently in many other devices, it does not suggest to me that the design is the problem.You need to check the actual specs of the capacitors and the actual current going through them if you can actually find the specs. Just the brand does not say much - if your mixed-bag PSU with various brands in various stages of blowing up are on different rails at different stages of power filtering (separated by inductors for example) then the ripple they get exposed to can be drastically different.