Author Topic: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing  (Read 38980 times)

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Offline DanielS

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2015, 03:23:09 pm »
There should be a no persistence option, period. I don't want my scope hiding information from me if I want to see it.
Then you should turn off intensity grading as well since that is effectively short-term persistence.

Single-shot has nothing to persist or intensity-grade on either, so if you see "persistence" on those, you are looking at something else like a display formatting/scaling feature/glitch.

After all, unless your auto-trigger rate is slow enough that you have time to look at your signal before the next trigger, the scope will be blending the outputs from multiple trigger events on each display refresh to present to you as much of what happened since the last display refresh as it can to improve your chances of seeing glitches - that's what those 30k-200k wfm/s are for. If the scope presented only one waveform per display update, you would be losing 99.9% of the information.
 

Offline Phil_L

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2015, 04:36:40 pm »
Mine had no discernible offset jitter but did have AC trigger jitter pre-update. No jitter in either instance after update.
I took a 12Mpt FFT of a 16MHz crystal oscillator using  Alessandro's application before and after the update and I'm fairly certain I kept all other conditions consistent.
Maybe it's not particularly significant considering it's only a 40kHz span, but I just thought it was interesting that there was such a difference even though mine didn't seem to have problems initially. Was the AC triggering fix unrelated to the PLL? Or does the DS2000 series have the dodgy clock as well?

 

Offline rob77

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2015, 07:25:06 pm »
There is no "none" for persistence on the DS1004Z series. This I hate. There is always persistence, minimum and some intermediate settings, and infinite. If you want to see the raw signal you need to set to infinite.

and what would "none" do ? redraw the waveform many times a second with 100% intensity ? that would yield a flickering thick line => no added value in that ;) (just my very opinion)

There is sometimes a bit of detail hidden in the displayed signal when there is any persistence. Try it. Look at a waveform and then turn persistence to infinite and you will see some hidden detail. This is only a partial solution as there is garbage on the screen from the infinite persistence. There should be a no persistence option, period. I don't want my scope hiding information from me if I want to see it.

that's why you have so many triggering options - to catch the detail in single shot.
btw... it's not possible to see a "hidden" detail in auto mode.... if the "hidden" detail is occurring in every single cycle, then you'll clearly see it even with persistence and your detail is not hidden anymore ;) if it's not present in every cycle, then you got no chance to see it auto mode - you have to catch it in single shot ;)
or is the "hidden detail" you talking about just a noise ?  :-//
 

Offline cidcorp

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2015, 07:57:18 pm »
Sorry but is there a link to the new firmware, somewhere?

Thanks

Chris
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2015, 07:58:38 pm »
Yes, by saying detail I mean noise too, or even variations in the signal. With any persistence, this can get blurred and make the signal look cleaner than it is. Like said! Try it. You will see that the persistence s hiding detail, temporal detail.

Why is it a bad thing to see all the noise and changing detail in a signal? Really? Is that not one of the reasons for an oscilloscope?
 

Offline janoc

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2015, 07:58:45 pm »
I have done the update on my DS1074Z now and it seems to have fixed the AC trigger jitter just fine. Now all the trigger coupling modes work well. I didn't have the 5us offset issue before, so can't comment on that.

However, it seems to me that the scope now boots significantly slower post-update. Is that normal or is there something funny going on with my unit?
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2015, 08:03:08 pm »
Sorry but is there a link to the new firmware, somewhere?

Thanks

Chris

It is a bit strange that Dave did not provide a link with the original post.

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/ct/1579/s-0518-1412/Bct/l-sf-lead-0006/l-sf-lead-0006:16888/ct2_0/1?sid=W41SWJyI3
 

Offline michalK

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2015, 08:54:46 pm »
However, it seems to me that the scope now boots significantly slower post-update. Is that normal or is there something funny going on with my unit?

I think my unit start up a little bit longer, too. I haven't checked the starting time before update so I can't compare it.
 

Offline radiogeek97

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2015, 09:28:26 pm »
Just updated my scope and I had results just about like Dave had.   My jitter and ac trig coupling is noticeably better now :clap:  AND. Post update all my upgrades were retained  :phew:    thanks again
 

Offline janoc

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2015, 10:20:40 pm »
However, it seems to me that the scope now boots significantly slower post-update. Is that normal or is there something funny going on with my unit?

I think my unit start up a little bit longer, too. I haven't checked the starting time before update so I can't compare it.

Mine now takes about 34 seconds to boot up from pushing the power button to the trace appearing. I didn't measure it before, but it was certainly faster - someone in the other thread on this scope commented that his boots in about 19 seconds, before and after the update. That sounds about right for what I had before.
 

Offline JackOfVA

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2015, 11:06:53 pm »
I wonder if some of the remaining noise sideband could be due to noise from the switching power supply or from the LCD display coupling into the PLL loop filter, where it becomes a modulating source (FM) to the loop.

Given the PLL multiplication factor, it wouldn't take a lot of unwanted noise leaking into the PLL to cause problems.
 

 

Offline DG5SAY

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2015, 09:43:10 am »
Hi, in the Video I cant see any decoupling capacitor around the ADF4360. According the datasheet (page 7, table 4) there must be one on pin 2 and pin 6 to ground "as short as possible"!
Decoupling capacitors and their right positioning are very important. They must be on the same side like the IC, and no via allowed between the capacitor an the IC-pin.
I think that will significantly improve the PLL performance (noise, jitter).
And don´t forget a decoupling capacitor on the supply of the 25 MHz oszillator!
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2015, 09:45:32 am »
Hi, in the Video I cant see any decoupling capacitor around the ADF4360. According the datasheet (page 7, table 4) there must be one on pin 2 and pin 6 to ground "as short as possible"!
Decoupling capacitors and their right positioning are very important. They must be on the same side like the IC, and no via allowed between the capacitor an the IC-pin.
I think that will significantly improve the PLL performance (noise, jitter).
And don´t forget a decoupling capacitor on the supply of the 25 MHz oszillator!

They're on the other side of the board. Yes, they can be on the other side of the board. BGAs, dual row QFN, the reality of where your power and ground planes live..

That said, the decoupling is much less robust than used on the DS2000Z design.
 

Offline Guni

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2015, 10:22:54 am »
Also, I would like to note that at first (as suggested by Rigol engineer) I have upgraded the bootloader of my scope, then I upgraded firmware to version 00.04.02 SP3 and finally to 00.04.02 SP4.
I'm not sure if such procedure is necessary (Dave didn't do that on video) but that is what I got from Rigol and I have no reason not to listen to their advices.
At last I can enjoy my DSO as it is written on the screen after successful upgrade precedure  :scared:
Can you explain "bootloader upgrade"? On the officially published Rigol's update there is only firmware. I first time listen about bootloader update.
BTW
Very nice illustration before-after update!
 

Offline michalK

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2015, 11:19:36 am »
Honestly I was surprised when I read that bootloader needs to be updated.
To be 100% accurate below you can read an e-mail I got from Rigol:

"To be on the save side, I suggest to upgrade first to 00.04.02 SP3 and afterwards to 00.04.02 SP4
Therefore please start with the bootloader update... followed from the Firmware update 00.04.02 SP3
afterwards with the Firmware 00.04.02 SP4"


I had the same firmware version as Dave on the video, 00.04.01 SP2. As you could see he simply loaded 00.04.02. SP4 firmware without any additional steps. Probably method suggested by Rigol engineer is super safe way of doing the same thing.

 

Offline radiogeek97

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2015, 02:24:59 pm »
for those of us that have and want to retain "upgrades/hacks" i would be hessitant to update the bootloader unless absolutely necessary.  You may wind up with a locked instrument like the dsa815
 

Jamieson

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2015, 03:13:32 pm »
The firmware update fixed both the 5us and AC trigger coupling issues on my DS1054Z.  This unit was ordered in November from TEquipment and delivered on December 24th.  Nice work Rigol!
 

Offline Guni

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2015, 05:04:10 pm »
Honestly I was surprised when I read that bootloader needs to be updated.
To be 100% accurate below you can read an e-mail I got from Rigol:

"To be on the save side, I suggest to upgrade first to 00.04.02 SP3 and afterwards to 00.04.02 SP4
Therefore please start with the bootloader update... followed from the Firmware update 00.04.02 SP3
afterwards with the Firmware 00.04.02 SP4"


I had the same firmware version as Dave on the video, 00.04.01 SP2. As you could see he simply loaded 00.04.02. SP4 firmware without any additional steps. Probably method suggested by Rigol engineer is super safe way of doing the same thing.
So, I think booloader update means - step by step upgrade from 00.04.01 SP2->00.04.02 SP3>00.04.02 SP4, not direct.
We (or only I) don't know Rigol's firmware version numbering and changelogs as well. Logically 00.04.01.SP2 -> 00.04.02 SP3 is more important update with bootloder upgrade. From 00.04.02 SP3 ->00.04.02 SP4 is just a minor update.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 05:06:11 pm by Guni »
 

Offline dentaku

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2015, 06:37:36 pm »
Great video  :-+ and it wasn't too long at all. These types of videos are worth taking the time to do right.
 

Offline womai

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2015, 07:22:01 pm »
Tried the new firmware version. Below are the jitter pictures before and after the update (input: 20 MHz sine wave, looking at it 5 us after the trigger). As you can see my scope (DS1054Z) had a pretty bad case of "jitteritis", around 13ns pk-pk (see cursors), but the update cured it completely! Very happy about it.

 

Offline Smokey

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2015, 09:35:15 pm »
Great job on the video.  Putting some quantitative values (and plots) to the problem really helps hammer it home.

A suggestion:
Topics like this could really benefit from their own text page in addition to the video.  Something like a report that people could link to and reference.  The video is great, but not really something people can reference for details easily.  I bet you could get a lot more hits if you had a text blog post report of the findings in the video with some screenshots of the important parts. 

Also, maybe you could also use that page, or a section of it or something, as an up to date summary of the HUGE forum thread about the topic.  Once a forum thread takes off like this one, it becomes really had to keep up with it, and I know I personally give up really trying at some point.  I know some of the phone hacking sites dedicate the first post as the current summary of the thread.  That's really useful.

Just some thoughts.
 

Offline Daniel 74

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2015, 10:01:13 pm »
Looking at the video, I noticed that one inductor pair is placed in parallel and another pair is placed in-line. These should be placed in right angles with respect to each other.
This seems like asking for trouble in sensitive circuits like PLLs. Considering the tolerances on the parts, this could be the source of the problem and also could explain why the behavior is not consistent on all oscilloscopes.
 

Offline ConnorGames

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2015, 04:37:11 am »
If anyone else has a spectrum analyzer and affected scope, it would be interesting to see if Rigol has just come up with a new set of hard-coded coefficients, or if they are doing some kind of "autotuning" on the PLL.
 

Online Bud

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2015, 11:37:13 pm »
Follow blog #683, where the root cause of the problem was identified and which is where analysis was done on a pre updated scope and will be repeated on a post update one. We will not be cross posting in two threads. If interested in details of how the investigation developed, read the above blog from page 19 on.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline max666

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2015, 12:15:59 am »
It is a bit strange that Dave did not provide a link with the original post.

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/ct/1579/s-0518-1412/Bct/l-sf-lead-0006/l-sf-lead-0006:16888/ct2_0/1?sid=W41SWJyI3
Thanks for posting the link, Lightages.

My unit didn't actually show the 5µs jitter before and it also shows no clock jitter after the update (I checked lots of other delays too).
But my unit was really bad at AC Trigger Coupling (it didn't even trigger on the rising edge as it's supposed to). The firmware update fixed the whole AC Trigger Coupling completely  :-+
I really like the AC Trigger Coupling. Sometimes if you have an AC signal with DC offset and the DC offset varies slowly and you want to look at the whole signal and not just the AC part, it's really handy to have AC Trigger Coupling so you don't have to constantly readjust the trigger level.

Boot-Time stayed practically the same before and after the firmware update.


before
 
Boot
Time
32 s
0 µs
5 µs
AC Trigger Coupling

after
 
Boot
Time
34 s
0 µs
5 µs
AC Trigger Coupling

EDIT: ns -> µs typo fixed
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 07:18:13 pm by max666 »
 


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