Author Topic: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing  (Read 39022 times)

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Offline aargee

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2015, 05:59:28 am »
I've updated my firmware and all is good with the 5uS jitter and the AC coupled trigger.

Interestingly, bootup was 19 seconds before AND after the upgrade.

Not easy, not hard, just need to be incentivised.
 

Offline vargoal

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2015, 06:34:05 am »
I should be getting my DS1054Z this month, fingers crossed that it doesn't have jitter issue. But being that I am friends with Murphy I am sure it will.
 

Offline womai

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2015, 06:46:55 am »
max666,

>>My unit didn't actually show the 5ns jitter before

Actually the worst-case position is 5 us (MICROseconds), not 5 ns (NANOseconds), since the timing modulation is 100 kHz. So looks like you checked a delay that was 1000x too short, no wonder you did not see any noticeable jitter...  :=)
 

Offline DanielS

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2015, 03:00:58 pm »
Actually the worst-case position is 5 us (MICROseconds), not 5 ns (NANOseconds), since the timing modulation is 100 kHz. So looks like you checked a delay that was 1000x too short, no wonder you did not see any noticeable jitter...  :=)
If you look at his actual screen dumps, they show 5µs as expected. His 5ns titles were just  brain farts.
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2015, 09:56:16 pm »
I just did the update and all went well. \there is zero evidence of jitter at 5us and none with AC trigger coupling. My boot time remains around 18 seconds. All upgrades remain enabled. System info show 00.04.02 SP4 and hardware 0.1.1

For me this is now a prefect perfectly functional scope, except for some personal gripes that I will cover another day in a video.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 12:12:56 am by Lightages »
 

Offline mauroh

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #55 on: January 09, 2015, 12:10:08 am »
Most probably is just me with a low knoledge of DSOs basics, but to verify the new firmware i was playing with a 20MHz oscillator and notice that if I enable 3 or 4 channels the signal jitters.

Is this just due to the 250MSa/s that the scope is only capable with 3 or 4 enabled channels?

I've tried with 9MHz and 4MHz with the same result.

Mauro

Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #56 on: January 09, 2015, 12:50:34 am »
Just tried with all four channels enabled and I saw nothing.
 

Offline DanielS

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #57 on: January 09, 2015, 03:05:57 am »
Is this just due to the 250MSa/s that the scope is only capable with 3 or 4 enabled channels?
This is not jitter; this is noise and some of it is indeed attributable to the lower sampling rate when using two or more channels.

The clock jitter issue this thread is about is for the delayed sweep function - when you want acquisition to start a certain amount of time after trigger. Some people noticed that the 1000Z and 2000A series scopes had periodic jitter every 5µs worth of trigger delay. You would need to setup such a delayed sweep to see if yours has it. On your screen, the delay is set to zero, which means you are staring directly at the trigger. You will never see jitter (at least not the type this thread is about) there.
 

Offline mauroh

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #58 on: January 09, 2015, 08:46:50 am »
Is this just due to the 250MSa/s that the scope is only capable with 3 or 4 enabled channels?
This is not jitter; this is noise and some of it is indeed attributable to the lower sampling rate when using two or more channels.


To Lightages: do you have a DS1054z? Mine is a DS1104z and I guess 100MHz bandwidth is "too much" if the scope is acquiring only 250MSa/s.

Thanks DanielS for the clarification, but I'm not totally convinced that it is just "noise". I'll search some nice literature online about Sample Rates vs Bandwidth and i guess I'll find our friend Nyquist introducing me again her daughter Aliasing  :)

Limiting the bandwidth to 20MHz the signal is much more stable

Mauro

Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #59 on: January 09, 2015, 08:50:54 am »
I have a DS1054Z "upgraded" to 100MHz.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #60 on: January 09, 2015, 08:54:22 am »
I'll search some nice literature online about Sample Rates vs Bandwidth and i guess I'll find our friend Nyquist introducing me again her daughter Aliasing  :)

And I'm quite sure you will see that it is perfectly reasonable (in theory and in practice) to sample, say, a waveform with 3GHz components at 100MS/s.

Of course there is the proviso that the signal you wish to extract has a bandwidth <50MHz :)
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline mauroh

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #61 on: January 09, 2015, 09:13:39 am »
I have a DS1054Z "upgraded" to 100MHz.

Well this is strange... I have a DS1074Z "upgraded" to 100MHz
Have you tried with a sine wave or square?
I'm using some crystal oscillators and I expect all DS1104Z will behave in the same way under the same condition...




Offline rf-loop

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #62 on: January 09, 2015, 10:21:59 am »
Most probably is just me with a low knoledge of DSOs basics, but to verify the new firmware i was playing with a 20MHz oscillator and notice that if I enable 3 or 4 channels the signal jitters.

Is this just due to the 250MSa/s that the scope is only capable with 3 or 4 enabled channels?

I've tried with 9MHz and 4MHz with the same result.

Mauro

It is one form of aliasing.
Your signal have frequency components over Nyquist and these produce classic "corner wobbling".  It is well explained in many places, example in some Agilent(Keyshit) papers.  (also there is Rigol  very poorly  implemented "Sin(x)/x" fake in DS1000Z, as described previously, example here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/msg563208/#msg563208 )
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 12:18:10 pm by rf-loop »
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Offline mauroh

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #63 on: January 09, 2015, 10:51:30 am »
It is one form of aliasing.
Your signal have frequency components over Nyquist and these produce classic "corner wobbling".  It is well explained in many places, example in some Agilent(Keyshit) papers.  (also there is Rigol  very poor implementation if "Sin(x)/x" fake)

Yes, in this few minutes I had a very pleasant reading of the following paper:

http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5732EN.pdf

Thanks to everyone for the quick and friendly feedback.

Mauro

Offline max666

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #64 on: January 09, 2015, 08:52:51 pm »
Actually the worst-case position is 5 us (MICROseconds), not 5 ns (NANOseconds), since the timing modulation is 100 kHz. So looks like you checked a delay that was 1000x too short, no wonder you did not see any noticeable jitter...  :=)
If you look at his actual screen dumps, they show 5µs as expected. His 5ns titles were just  brain farts.
Ooops, must have been looking at my scope upside down

Most probably is just me with a low knoledge of DSOs basics, but to verify the new firmware i was playing with a 20MHz oscillator and notice that if I enable 3 or 4 channels the signal jitters.

Is this just due to the 250MSa/s that the scope is only capable with 3 or 4 enabled channels?

I've tried with 9MHz and 4MHz with the same result.

Mauro
Interesting, I took a look myself.
Picture 1 at 1000MSa/s looks fine, note that it says sin(x)/x=ON. Funnily you can't disable sin(x)/x on 1000MSa/s and 500MSa/s.
Picture 2 at 250MSa/s ... oh boy!
But watch what happens when I disable sin(x)/x in Picture 3   :o
 

Offline Agent24

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #65 on: January 12, 2015, 12:09:11 am »
and what would you expect from a $500 scope ?

I would expect that they had checked that their phase locked loops were actually locked! If not just stuff an RC oscillaroe in there!

Ditto for a $200 scope.

If their engineering appears to be, um, "slapdash" in one area then it probably is in others too.
Like the awful quality CapXon capacitors all through the power supply?
 

Offline Neddie

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #66 on: January 12, 2015, 08:49:01 am »
where can I get a copy of the new firmware?
Cheers
Ned
 

Offline tautech

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #67 on: January 12, 2015, 08:52:49 am »
and what would you expect from a $500 scope ?

I would expect that they had checked that their phase locked loops were actually locked! If not just stuff an RC oscillaroe in there!

Ditto for a $200 scope.

If their engineering appears to be, um, "slapdash" in one area then it probably is in others too.
Like the awful quality CapXon capacitors all through the power supply?
Really.  :o :palm:
Oh dear.

Can others confirm this?
Agent24 can you post a photo?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 09:00:43 am by tautech »
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Offline Agent24

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #68 on: January 12, 2015, 09:40:13 am »
and what would you expect from a $500 scope ?

I would expect that they had checked that their phase locked loops were actually locked! If not just stuff an RC oscillaroe in there!

Ditto for a $200 scope.

If their engineering appears to be, um, "slapdash" in one area then it probably is in others too.
Like the awful quality CapXon capacitors all through the power supply?
Really.  :o :palm:
Oh dear.

Can others confirm this?
Agent24 can you post a photo?

No need, it's all here in Dave's teardown: http://youtu.be/kb9P1Am9aFU?t=13m36s

Quite sad since the old model used Nichicon. It's a total nosedive in quality. I've seen so many blown CapXons on Badcaps.net and replaced many myself, mostly in LCD monitors.  I don't know which brand Dave thinks is worse than CapXon, maybe Samxon, but AFAIK they are actually better, though the Samxon GF series seem to be pretty horrible.
 

Offline Towger

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #69 on: January 12, 2015, 09:51:46 am »
where can I get a copy of the new firmware?
Cheers
Ned

You can apply on their website. When I did it, I got a reply back within a hour or so. Depending on your current firmware version they may recommend that you update the bootloader as well, with an another update, before updating to the latest firmware. However, if you don't want to contact Rigol there are links in pervious posts to the latest update and I have seen no complaints from those who skipped the bootloader update.

For the record, my boot time from 'switch on' to 'trace display', with only ch1 on and no probes connected are:

00.02.01.SP1 - 29.6 seconds
00.04.02.SP3 - 33.7 seconds -> This is the update with the latest bootloader. File name 'DS1000Z(boot)Update_00.04.02.zip' containing folder 'Sparrow(boot)Update_00.04.02.03.00'.  For those complaining there are no release notes, this file also contains a Word document with 18 pages of changes in both Chinese and English.
00.04.02.SP4.07 - 33.7 seconds
00.04.02.SP4.07 After Self  - 33.8 - No difference.

I was also sent a 'DS1000Z(ARM)Update_00.04.02.zip', but this appears to contain the same update as the 'DS1000Z(boot)Update_00.04.02.zip' without the bootloader, so I did not bother installing it.

BTW. My scope is an early *real* DS1104Z and I could not reproduce either of the two bugs.


 

Offline Orange

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #70 on: January 12, 2015, 10:10:37 am »
and what would you expect from a $500 scope ?

I would expect that they had checked that their phase locked loops were actually locked! If not just stuff an RC oscillaroe in there!

Ditto for a $200 scope.

If their engineering appears to be, um, "slapdash" in one area then it probably is in others too.
Like the awful quality CapXon capacitors all through the power supply?
Really.  :o :palm:
Oh dear.

Can others confirm this?
Agent24 can you post a photo?
It's probably not going well with your Siglent sales is it ?  :)
 

Offline Neddie

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #71 on: January 12, 2015, 10:36:02 am »
Found the firmware link , thanks.
 

Offline DanielS

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #72 on: January 12, 2015, 05:04:28 pm »
I've seen so many blown CapXons on Badcaps.net and replaced many myself, mostly in LCD monitors.  I don't know which brand Dave thinks is worse than CapXon, maybe Samxon, but AFAIK they are actually better, though the Samxon GF series seem to be pretty horrible.
To be fair, the majority of blown CapXon caps are put in applications they are grossly under-spec'd for in the first place, so a large part of their failure is due to negligent design from the downstream product engineering: if you take the best caps ever made and run them at 4-10X their rated ripple current in an environment where they may be exposed to temperatures over 80C, as is often the case in poorly designed SMPS, they will fail prematurely too. The products could also be engineered for failure: stress the caps just enough to guarantee the PSU will fail soon after the warranty expires.

In the 1000Z's case, the caps likely see less than 1A ripple since there are 2-4 of 'em per supply output. The whole unit only consumes 40W including PSU losses and the enclosure has a fan guaranteeing airflow, so the caps' operating temperature will be hardly anything over ambient.

Rigol wants to earn market share and they are not going to earn much respect if they design products that systematically fail after 3-4 years due to shaving $1 on the BoM that could have let the products last a more reasonable 10 years. I would expect that Rigol has done their job and concluded that those CapXon will be good enough to give the scope service life comparable to the major-league manufacturers they want to compete with.
 

Offline Neddie

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #73 on: January 12, 2015, 07:27:22 pm »
Is this firmware update suitable for the DS2000 series of scopes?
Does not seem to have been mentioned in this thread.
Cheers
Neddie
 

Offline vinicius.jlantunes

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Re: EEVblog #699 - Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope Jitter Fix Testing
« Reply #74 on: January 12, 2015, 07:37:32 pm »
It is one form of aliasing.
Your signal have frequency components over Nyquist and these produce classic "corner wobbling".  It is well explained in many places, example in some Agilent(Keyshit) papers.  (also there is Rigol  very poor implementation if "Sin(x)/x" fake)

Yes, in this few minutes I had a very pleasant reading of the following paper:

http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-5732EN.pdf

Thanks to everyone for the quick and friendly feedback.

Mauro

Very nice document this one from Agilent. Interesting to see them showing the problems on the LeCroy and Tek scopes  :-DD


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