Author Topic: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review  (Read 31280 times)

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Offline DJ

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2015, 11:46:37 pm »
Just to underscore this, when you say 800x480 touchscreen to someone, it conjures up this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/IRULU-9-800-x-480-Android-4-2-8GB-Tablet-Touchscreen-Dual-Core-Cam-WiFi-w-Case-/351098562776

Cheaping out on the man-machine interface is not the way to get it done.

Understood that vertical res on these scopes is 8 bits. Maybe it's time to work on that. Easy enough to boxcar/rolling avg to get into 12-bit territory. These displays can't even do 10-bit.

Help us old guys with bad eyes out. BIG screens with Lots of resolution.


ETA: Same goes for DMM/AWG/ SA and so on. EVERY instrument over $500 should have the ability to use a bigger display. DVI/HDMI/WiFi or BT to a tablet, etc. Stop making us squint!!!
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 11:52:27 pm by DJ »
 

Offline DJ

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2015, 12:09:14 am »
Big screens are a delight to work with. I had a 17" display driven from an Agilent 80something (1GHz Infiniium) on a repositionable arm and it made poking around circuits so much easier. I could probe and glance at the display without moving my head, critical when trying to keep probes on eeentsy tiny components.  Not only that, other engineers or techs can see waveforms without crouching over the person doing the work. Try it! It is liberating!
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2015, 12:20:45 am »
In any case, correct me if I am wrong, didn't Dave mention the resolution was fixed by virtue of reusing the same ASICs.

Yes, and that is why the big screen 4000 series had the same resolution. The ASIC maps the waveform data directly to the screen. It is also the reason why the waveform can't be expanded to include the full screen, it's a fixed map area.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2015, 09:07:08 am »
Bringing the advanced maths and segmented memory as standard is nice, they were features hard to convince people of the value of but are a pleasure to use.

The front end boards are still stratified into 100-200MHz, 350-500MHz, and 1000MHz variants so the slightly increased sample rate probably isn't much of a change.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2015, 09:25:23 am »
Help us old guys with bad eyes out. BIG screens with Lots of resolution.

Take a look at the Agilent 7000 Series scope. That screen is so big it is a real pleasure to work with.
It has a 12.1" XGA display and good size letters of text, easily readable



« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 09:26:58 am by HighVoltage »
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Offline DanielS

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2015, 12:59:01 pm »
Still stumped that Keysight doesn't do just the box, and couple it to a tablet with a decent display, a la Samsung Galaxy Note 12.2
I doubt the display update rate would be anywhere near as good if the screen had to get dumped over LAN/WiFi.

And personally, I really like having physical knobs and buttons.
 

Offline xDR1TeK

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2015, 01:31:29 pm »
So I went ahead and looked up the price tag for this one the MSO-X 3104T.

 15K+ USD.

Well, I don't see how that is interesting. It is a bloody toy for a bloody rich kid who wants flashy colors and two strippers on some shiny pole, and that isn't with all the functionality included even. You have to pay for the extras. Bloody yarn balls, they keep low balling suckers in the nut sack!!!! and they ask for more?

I don't know about you guys, but I think I can look up some hardware for the same specs with lower price tag and it doesn't have to be from the mainland either. Forget about the MTBF, that is just a load of dun, predictions are for your horoscopes....
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 01:43:59 pm by xDR1TeK »
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2015, 01:44:04 pm »
So I went ahead and looked up the price tag for this one the MSO-X 3104T.

 15K+ USD.

Well, I don't see how that is interesting. It is a bloody toy for a bloody rich kid who wants flashy colors and two strippers on some shiny pole, and that isn't with all the functionality included even. You have to pay for the extras. Bloody yarn balls, they keep low balling suckers in the nut sack!!!! and they ask for more?

I don't know about you guys, but I think I can look up some hardware for the same specs with lower price tag and it doesn't have to be from the mainland either. Forget about the MTBF, that is just a load of dun, predictions are for your horoscopes....

You won't get the same specs. Nor will you get the same support.

Sorry, but these are not targetted at cheap hobbyists, they're made for professionals and companies.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2015, 01:55:49 pm »
The starting price for the 3000T series in Germany is Euro 2700 for the two channel version and I think this is a reasonable price for a professional scope.
http://www.datatec.de/Oszilloskope-Probes/Oszilloskope-Keysight/Keysight-InfiniiVision-Oszilloskope/Keysight-3000T-Oszilloskop-Serie/index.htm
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Offline Pinkus

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2015, 03:06:05 pm »
MSOX3024T with all licenses ~13K Euro. Better try to get a used 4 channel MSOX3024A with all licenses for a third of the the price.
I admit, I had my prejudices with the touch screen. During Daves video I thought sometimes "nah - don't need it" and sometimes I though "well, quicker as with the regular knobs and buttons".
But then - at the end of the video (at 35:30) - Dave reaffirmed my prejudices by showing the screen of the scope :o (see screenshot attached) and now I know: no, I DO NOT WANT a smeared and smudgy screen covered with fingerprints and dirt.
I know enough people who do not care - many seem to even never clean their glasses. Brrrrr. But I do care - I want a clean screen.  My mobile phone can be cleaned quickly by wiping it at my shirt or trousers, the scope will need a dedicated peace of cloth laying around and will need some time to be cleaned.
But in a few years, when they finally invented grease repellent screens, I probably will be interested....
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 03:10:09 pm by Pinkus »
 

Offline Lukas

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2015, 04:55:48 pm »
Still stumped that Keysight doesn't do just the box, and couple it to a tablet with a decent display, a la Samsung Galaxy Note 12.2
I doubt the display update rate would be anywhere near as good if the screen had to get dumped over LAN/WiFi.

And personally, I really like having physical knobs and buttons.
We've got hardware H264 encoders these days. The mobile device only has to stream video.
 

Offline Zad

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2015, 04:07:26 pm »
I can stream 4K HD video from YouTube, I can't imagine video over ethernet would tax modern technology that much, even with a requirement for low latency. Even simple RLL compression would massively reduce scope display bandwidth.

Whilst I totally agree that "retina" type resolution would be a waste on low resolution applications like 8-bit oscilloscopes, I do think that they provide the potential for a clearer and more usable graphical interface. Applications such as frequency domain analysis and data logging trend trackers can also benefit from the resolution.


Offline LordNobady

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #62 on: January 12, 2015, 08:58:39 am »
Take a look at the Agilent 7000 Series scope. That screen is so big it is a real pleasure to work with.
It has a 12.1" XGA display and good size letters of text, easily readable
we have a MSO-x 4000 And the screen is a joy to work with. bigger screen means you see more from the data.

MSOX3024T with all licenses ~13K Euro. Better try to get a used 4 channel MSOX3024A with all licenses for a third of the the price.
I admit, I had my prejudices with the touch screen. During Daves video I thought sometimes "nah - don't need it" and sometimes I though "well, quicker as with the regular knobs and buttons".
But then - at the end of the video (at 35:30) - Dave reaffirmed my prejudices by showing the screen of the scope :o (see screenshot attached) and now I know: no, I DO NOT WANT a smeared and smudgy screen covered with fingerprints and dirt.
I know enough people who do not care - many seem to even never clean their glasses. Brrrrr. But I do care - I want a clean screen.  My mobile phone can be cleaned quickly by wiping it at my shirt or trousers, the scope will need a dedicated peace of cloth laying around and will need some time to be cleaned.
But in a few years, when they finally invented grease repellent screens, I probably will be interested....

As a user of a 4000 with touchscreen i can say that with normal analog work I don't use it a lot. with the wave-gen I don't use anything else. I believe it is possible to do it with the knobs. also when using serial decoding and measurements functions I use it sometimes. And if it is on you don't see the fingerprint as much.
 

Offline Rutger

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #63 on: January 12, 2015, 07:03:02 pm »
Great review, but all I can think is; what happened to the review of the new Rigol DS1000Z...  Did Keysight 'bribe' you not the review it?


Don't be ridiculous. And I've explained why a dozen times.

Actually I was just joking, but your response is ridiculous. I haven't seen any explanation why the review wasn't released on this channel. All I know is you released it on the 'supported' channel and that there is a jitter issue. When are you going to release the review on this channel?
 

Offline con-f-use

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2015, 03:06:38 pm »
Did I blink in the wrong place or was there no mention of price? (Or is asking about the price the wrong thing to do...  :-X )
Dave said it will be the same price as the older MSOX3000A model

Any reasons to buy a Keysight DSOX3000T series instead of an equivalent a a lot cheaper Rigol MSO/DS2000A Series ?
A few but not worth it IMHO. Smart probes, bandwidth, touch screen, better fft features and a few options already included.

Keysight took their sweet time engineering the MegaZoom. It was superior to anything else on the market. Now that competitors catch up, Keysight is unlocking features and making easy one-ups because they have reserves. But, I guarantee that after there is a clearly better scope from Rigol or Techtronix, Agilent will release the next generation ASIC and scopes based on it. They are just adding wank as long as they. I'd wait for the real deal - they're just milking the cash cow with no real effort as anyone would.

Pity they had to change the main board and the FPGA, if they had just wacked on the touch screen, it would have been a really easy hack. But still there is room for both soft and hardware hacking.

I hope they'll upgrade the DSO2000A soon. I'd like to see serial decoding on the logic channels. That's the greatest shortcoming of the 2000

 

Offline EvilGeniusSkis

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #65 on: January 13, 2015, 05:37:24 pm »
I am very surprised at the 250kh MTBF, I would have thought that the electrolytic caps. in the PSU would fail well before that.
 

Offline phenol

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #66 on: January 13, 2015, 08:22:04 pm »
MTBF of 250khrs does NOT mean that the scope should last for an average of 250khrs.
The actual probability that any one particular scope will survive to its claimed MTBF is merely 36.8% (e^-1). in other words, 63% will fail by those 250khrs. MTBF calculations do not apply when wearout, whether caps in psu, encoders and whatnot, is involved.
 

Offline xDR1TeK

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2015, 06:16:28 pm »
So I went ahead and looked up the price tag for this one the MSO-X 3104T.

 15K+ USD.

Well, I don't see how that is interesting. It is a bloody toy for a bloody rich kid who wants flashy colors and two strippers on some shiny pole, and that isn't with all the functionality included even. You have to pay for the extras. Bloody yarn balls, they keep low balling suckers in the nut sack!!!! and they ask for more?

I don't know about you guys, but I think I can look up some hardware for the same specs with lower price tag and it doesn't have to be from the mainland either. Forget about the MTBF, that is just a load of dun, predictions are for your horoscopes....

You won't get the same specs. Nor will you get the same support.

Sorry, but these are not targetted at cheap hobbyists, they're made for professionals and companies.

Fair enough.
 


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