Author Topic: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review  (Read 31275 times)

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Online EEVblog

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EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« on: January 08, 2015, 11:33:33 am »
The new Keysight/Agilent 3000T Oscilloscope is released today, and Dave has a world first review of it.
It's a replacement for the existing 3000A X-Series, and is essentially the same in many ways, so only the differences are
covered in this video.
A lot of features from the 4000 X-Series have filtered down, and some things are now standard.
How does it compare to the Tektronix MDO3000?

Original 3000A review here:
4000 X-Series review is here:

 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2015, 11:38:52 am »
360p video?

(It's the highest resolution Youtube is offering me on both Firefox and Chrome...)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 11:51:39 am by Fungus »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2015, 11:56:35 am »
Over a minute just to turn it on??? 

 

Offline hammy

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2015, 11:58:40 am »
only 360p? :o

You processed the video with the old Apple Lisa?  ;)
 

Offline alimirjamali

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2015, 12:13:48 pm »
Alright I can that confirm best available quality is 360P:
Code: [Select]
$ youtube-dl -F FtcZ9K8551s
[youtube] FtcZ9K8551s: Downloading webpage
[youtube] FtcZ9K8551s: Extracting video information
[info] Available formats for FtcZ9K8551s:
format code extension resolution  note
17          3gp       176x144     (worst)
36          3gp       320x240
5           flv       400x240
18          mp4       640x360     (best)

However I would rather watch something exciting in low quality rather than a boring video in High-Def :P
Thanks Dave for the review :-+
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 12:32:20 pm by alimirjamali »
 

Offline alimirjamali

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2015, 12:25:43 pm »
You probably were a bit quick off the mark. More formats are available now.
You are absolutely right. Youtube just rendered 1080P DASH stream. They should upgrade their servers :-DD The infamous 60fps stream is not yet rendered. ^-^
Code: [Select]
youtube-dl -F FtcZ9K8551s
[youtube] FtcZ9K8551s: Downloading webpage
[youtube] FtcZ9K8551s: Extracting video information
[youtube] FtcZ9K8551s: Downloading DASH manifest
[info] Available formats for FtcZ9K8551s:
format code extension resolution  note
140         m4a       audio only  DASH audio , audio@128k (worst)
139         m4a       audio only  DASH audio   51k , audio@ 48k (22050Hz), 14.01MiB
140         m4a       audio only  DASH audio  131k , audio@128k (44100Hz), 37.28MiB
141         m4a       audio only  DASH audio  258k , audio@256k (44100Hz), 74.04MiB
160         mp4       144p        DASH video , video only
160         mp4       256x144     DASH video  121k , 13fps, video only, 32.44MiB
133         mp4       240p        DASH video , video only
133         mp4       426x240     DASH video  264k , 25fps, video only, 72.75MiB
134         mp4       360p        DASH video , video only
134         mp4       640x360     DASH video  610k , 25fps, video only, 95.28MiB
135         mp4       480p        DASH video , video only
135         mp4       854x480     DASH video 1117k , 25fps, video only, 200.64MiB
136         mp4       720p        DASH video , video only
136         mp4       1280x720    DASH video 2225k , 25fps, video only, 405.15MiB
137         mp4       1080p       DASH video , video only
137         mp4       1920x1080   DASH video 4181k , 25fps, video only, 823.30MiB
17          3gp       176x144
36          3gp       320x240
5           flv       400x240
18          mp4       640x360     (best)
 

Offline kilobyte

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2015, 12:30:23 pm »
Dave can you try if the old easter eggs are still in there?

Star Trek screensaver (Screensaver usertext TREK) or the Screensaver usertext CAKE easteregg like in the 4000 series

 

Online coppice

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2015, 12:45:40 pm »
I wonder why Dave was impressed by an MTBF of 250k hours? Used 40 hours per week for 52 weeks a year, that's about 1% failures per annum. Good, but nothing out of the ordinary these days.
 

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2015, 12:54:20 pm »
I wonder why Dave was impressed by an MTBF of 250k hours?

A 36% probability the scope still works after almost 23 years of 24/7 operation is not bad.
I'm more impressed that they actually specify it, and presumably have done the testing and calcs to come up with that figure, than the actual figure itself.
 

Online coppice

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2015, 12:59:21 pm »
I wonder why Dave was impressed by an MTBF of 250k hours?

A 36% probability the scope still works after almost 23 years of 24/7 operation is not bad.
I'm more impressed that they actually specify it, and presumably have done the testing and calcs to come up with that figure, than the actual figure itself.
You should know that is NOT what a 250k hour MTBF means.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2015, 01:15:07 pm »
Did I blink in the wrong place or was there no mention of price?

(Or is asking about the price the wrong thing to do...  :-X )

 

Offline TopLoser

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2015, 01:27:49 pm »
Did I blink in the wrong place or was there no mention of price?

(Or is asking about the price the wrong thing to do...  :-X )

DSOX3014T  £2,701
DSOX3024T  £3,012
DSOX3034T  £5,619
DSOX3054T  £7,583

Add about £1000 on for MSO option.
 

Offline Razor512

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2015, 02:10:25 pm »
I wonder, can those oscilloscopes be overclocked for better performance?

For the price they charge, it should include a Core i7 4790K, a decent PCI - express SSD, in addition to a better ASIC, in addition to 802.11ac 4 stream, and 10 gigabit Ethernet (and a bunch of eSATA ports, and a bunch of server functions so that you can get your ESXi on while probing stuff)  just for the hell of it.
 

Offline BloodySword

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2015, 02:21:56 pm »
I wonder, can those oscilloscopes be overclocked for better performance?

For the price they charge, it should include a Core i7 4790K, a decent PCI - express SSD, in addition to a better ASIC, in addition to 802.11ac 4 stream, and 10 gigabit Ethernet (and a bunch of eSATA ports, and a bunch of server functions so that you can get your ESXi on while probing stuff)  just for the hell of it.

As far as I know they do everything that must be done in real time via the ASICs. So the i7 would be very bored in such a device.
 

Offline jpelczar

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2015, 02:24:42 pm »
Nice scope. I was expecting the drop test :)
 

Offline Razor512

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2015, 02:26:05 pm »
I wonder, can those oscilloscopes be overclocked for better performance?

For the price they charge, it should include a Core i7 4790K, a decent PCI - express SSD, in addition to a better ASIC, in addition to 802.11ac 4 stream, and 10 gigabit Ethernet (and a bunch of eSATA ports, and a bunch of server functions so that you can get your ESXi on while probing stuff)  just for the hell of it.

As far as I know they do everything that must be done in real time via the ASICs. So the i7 would be very bored in such a device.

It may help with the boot speeds, and general UI functions. There is no reason not to add faster components even if they will just be used to boot the system and run the UI when they want an astronomically high price of $13,000+ for their scope.

For that price, it should be performing additional functions like virtualized hosting + a SAN
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2015, 02:30:21 pm »
It may help with the boot speeds, and general UI functions. There is no reason not to add faster components even if they will just be used to boot the system and run the UI when they want an astronomically high price of $13,000+ for their scope.

I doubt it'd help boot speeds, nor would it make the scope any faster to use.

Quote
For that price, it should be performing additional functions like virtualized hosting + a SAN

 :-DD

Go on, get to market with your business-in-a-box oscilloscope.
 

Offline Tek_TDS220

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2015, 02:45:57 pm »
I'm intrigued by the touch interface.  When I use my non-touch scope, I'm constantly looking back and forth between the screen and the keys/buttons section.  Using touch appears to be a lot faster and intuitive.  For those who have experience with these scopes, I wonder what percentage of time they use the touch interface vs the keys/buttons?
 

Offline MarkL

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2015, 03:37:22 pm »
Did I blink in the wrong place or was there no mention of price?

(Or is asking about the price the wrong thing to do...  :-X )

DSOX3014T  £2,701
DSOX3024T  £3,012
DSOX3034T  £5,619
DSOX3054T  £7,583

Add about £1000 on for MSO option.

It's all on Keysight's web page:

http://www.keysight.com/en/pc-2475195/infiniivision-3000t-x-series-oscilloscope

Same pricing as the X3000A series, but more features including 4Mpts standard.  Bye bye, A series.
 

Offline Steffen

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2015, 04:52:03 pm »
[...] I wonder what percentage of time they use the touch interface vs the keys/buttons?

Few words from my experience with scopes at work:
Tek TDS 3000 Series: 70% Blind operation of knobs. After few years daily use of always the same few functions it's like 10 finger typing.
Tek MSO 5000 Series: Although this scope sits most times in the cabinet it requires oftenly switching views from display to knobs. It's all a matter of habit. This scope comes with resistive 10 inch 4:3 touchscreen, stylus included. Compared to the finger friendly UI from the DSOX3000T Series from HP Agilent Keysight the Tek MSO is quite difficult to use without stylus in menus.
Tek TDS 460A: Seldom use, although it's placed next to me at my work bench. But feels like TDS 3000.
R&S RTM 2000 series: I feel like an idiot that can't even ride a bicycle. It's quite far away from my Tektronix habits.   ;)
 

Offline rolycat

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2015, 05:18:16 pm »
I wonder, can those oscilloscopes be overclocked for better performance?

For the price they charge, it should include a Core i7 4790K, a decent PCI - express SSD, in addition to a better ASIC, in addition to 802.11ac 4 stream, and 10 gigabit Ethernet (and a bunch of eSATA ports, and a bunch of server functions so that you can get your ESXi on while probing stuff)  just for the hell of it.

As far as I know they do everything that must be done in real time via the ASICs. So the i7 would be very bored in such a device.

It may help with the boot speeds, and general UI functions. There is no reason not to add faster components even if they will just be used to boot the system and run the UI when they want an astronomically high price of $13,000+ for their scope.

Adding a 'Core i7 4790K' would achieve precisely nothing, because the Infiniivision X-series scopes don't use Intel processors. Nor do they run any flavour of desktop Windows. Windows Embedded Compact (formerly CE) is a totally different operating system.

 

Offline mfeinstein

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2015, 05:51:39 pm »
Any reasons to buy a Keysight DSOX3000T series instead of an equivalent a a lot cheaper Rigol MSO/DS2000A Series ?

 

Offline ElektronikLabor

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2015, 06:43:06 pm »
Any reasons to buy a Keysight DSOX3000T series instead of an equivalent a a lot cheaper Rigol MSO/DS2000A Series ?
I think the DS2000A is not the right scope to compare with DSOX3000T.
Maybe you could make a comparison between DSOX3000T and Rigol DS4000?
 

Offline mfeinstein

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2015, 07:23:59 pm »
Any reasons to buy a Keysight DSOX3000T series instead of an equivalent a a lot cheaper Rigol MSO/DS2000A Series ?
I think the DS2000A is not the right scope to compare with DSOX3000T.
Maybe you could make a comparison between DSOX3000T and Rigol DS4000?

I am not a specialist on scope's specs (this sounds a little funny haha) but, reading their 100MHz scopes's datasheet quickly over their website, they looks like the same...I am just not sure about the built in tools...

http://www.keysight.com/en/pc-2475195/oscilloscope?pm=SC&nid=-32756.0&cc=US&lc=eng

http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000A/
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2015, 07:35:35 pm »

As far as I know they do everything that must be done in real time via the ASICs. So the i7 would be very bored in such a device.

An i7 couldn't do a tenth of what those asics crunch er second... i'm even betting a one hundredth...
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Offline Rutger

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2015, 08:05:05 pm »
Great review, but all I can think is; what happened to the review of the new Rigol DS1000Z...  Did Keysight 'bribe' you not the review it?
 

Offline rolycat

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2015, 08:43:22 pm »
Great review, but all I can think is; what happened to the review of the new Rigol DS1000Z...  Did Keysight 'bribe' you not the review it?

I'm sure the DS1054Z review is in the works - Dave mentioned that much of it has already been shot - but it has no time constraints. This one had to be synchronized with the new scope's release date in order for Dave to score his 'world first'.
 

Offline jlmoon

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2015, 08:44:53 pm »
Oh, the "Wants" is going to kill me!
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Offline Omicron

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2015, 09:17:07 pm »
So, how does one reconcile this quote from the data sheet:

Quote
The 3000T X-Series has excellent signal integrity, including full bandwidth to 1 mV/div

With this quote from the same data sheet:

Quote
1 mV/div and 2 mV/div are a magnification of 4 mV/div setting.

If you want to make a fair comparison to another scope then use the real ranges and not the software magnified fake ones! I'm surprised Keysight didn't get called out on such an obvious marketing wank...

And when we're on the topic of bandwidth: why not a comparison of a 1GHz signal being measured with the MDO3000 and the 3000T using the supplied probes? The Tek comes with 1GHz probes compared to the 500MHz ones Keysight provides. What difference does this make in practice? Surely a topic worth investigating!
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2015, 09:19:54 pm »
What does Sagan think of the touchscreen?
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Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2015, 09:38:46 pm »
And when we're on the topic of bandwidth: why not a comparison of a 1GHz signal being measured with the MDO3000 and the 3000T using the supplied probes? The Tek comes with 1GHz probes compared to the 500MHz ones Keysight provides. What difference does this make in practice? Surely a topic worth investigating!

There are countless topics "worth investigating" when comparing scopes, that is just one of them.
 

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2015, 09:40:03 pm »
Great review, but all I can think is; what happened to the review of the new Rigol DS1000Z...  Did Keysight 'bribe' you not the review it?


Don't be ridiculous. And I've explained why a dozen times.
 

Online max_torque

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2015, 10:00:36 pm »
Looks like a great scope, except maybe for the slightly pricey (as usual) options list, but i just can't get my head around "Keysight"  It's like someone who sells toilet paper, or printer toner or something. Awful just awful!  |O


(i'd love to know the marketing reasons behind simply chucking over 40 years of company heritage in the bin for a new "shiny" name??)
 

Offline jpb

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2015, 10:07:12 pm »
(i'd love to know the marketing reasons behind simply chucking over 40 years of company heritage in the bin for a new "shiny" name??)
It was a case of bits of the company splitting away and they couldn't both keep the same name so the measurement group had to come up with a different one. I think there was a similar story behind Agilent being created from HP when that happened.
 

Offline Fsck

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2015, 10:09:22 pm »
a refresh of the 3k series make you wonder if they'll refresh the 2k series as well.
"This is a one line proof...if we start sufficiently far to the left."
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2015, 10:21:57 pm »
a refresh of the 3k series make you wonder if they'll refresh the 2k series as well.

Perhaps.
But I doubt they would included touch, that adds extra hardware cost.
They could enable extra features on the 2000 though as they have done in the past. After all, that was the whole intention of these scopes from the get-go - build in the hardware and then enable once market pressures force you to.
 

Online Howardlong

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2015, 10:36:25 pm »
(i'd love to know the marketing reasons behind simply chucking over 40 years of company heritage in the bin for a new "shiny" name??)
It was a case of bits of the company splitting away and they couldn't both keep the same name so the measurement group had to come up with a different one. I think there was a similar story behind Agilent being created from HP when that happened.

As you say, same thing happened 15 years ago. The sad thing is that HP became run by money men and women who had no idea how to run a business consistently, always looking for short term monthly and quarterly gains, they thought that being an accountant or a "banker" was enough without having to have a clue about the business.

The HP brand today is junk, particularly after their EDS takeover and more recently the pissing contest with Autonomy, it's become a race to the bottom. This is quite unlike Agilent who managed to maintain their reputation, as I hope Keysight will.

I am no fan of rebranding, and find the continual supposed added value from the branding, M&A and strategy MBA wankers to be nothing short of money for old rope in almost all circumstances. I am sure I'll still be referring to Keysight and Agilent as HP for many years yet, keeping the memory of the good years, when reputation was everything, and the bean counters and bankers remained behind their desks and steered clear of the boardroom.
 

Offline alimirjamali

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2015, 11:12:01 pm »
Still no HW USB serial decoding? ::)
Still no HDMI out (+LAN) option? ???
Can you play Angry Birds and Fruit Ninja on the touch screen if you are bored? ^-^
 

Offline Bob S

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2015, 01:29:53 am »
I wonder if there will be any more firmware updates for the 3000x now that is in out. As for the cost being the same as the 3000x, yes it is currently the same but I think they just bumped the price of the 3000x. Net result, (if I am correct) is that it is more expensive than the 3000x of a few days ago.
 

Offline Smokey

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2015, 03:27:32 am »
Wonder why they are making Dave send back the newer model.  If they were going to let him keep one to use in videos, you would think they would want it to be the newest model.
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2015, 07:45:49 am »
The 3000X 'A' is certainly more expensive now than it was a short while back if you include the cost of optional features. The 'ultimate scope' upgrade was a great offer, but now (I presume) they're back to charging hundreds of $$$ for each and every serial protocol decoder, the whole range just became much worse value :(

Online coppice

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2015, 07:54:37 am »
I wonder if there will be any more firmware updates for the 3000x now that is in out.
Maybe they'll follow the Microsoft approach of continuing to update the old product until its so slow you desperately want the new one.  :)
 

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2015, 09:08:43 am »
but now (I presume) they're back to charging hundreds of $$$ for each and every serial protocol decoder, the whole range just became much worse value :(

Yes, seems like that, and not surprising from a corporate point of view. They have a new product that they think trumps the competition so they think they can charge a motza for it.
The MDO3000 though is a real threat with their now free spectrum analyser. I haven't look at Rigol's or others in that price range, but it's probably a battle of those big two.
 

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2015, 10:49:49 am »
My guess re "Keysight" is that a fair bit of their PROFIT comes from Military/Defence sales; the low to mid price section of the market I suspect has very little profit margin.
To me the name 'smells' of a marketing study merging Key as in security and Sight as in the sense of either predicting or gunsight both with strong military type associations.

The touch screen looks nice but I won't be looking to upgrade my DSO3054 until they have an order or two more memory points, being able to look in detail at both mS and nS timescales from the same triggered event would be handy. The MTBF figure is a little reassuring as I presume a lot of hardware is common with the 'old' 3000 series.
Whoah! Watch where that landed we might need it later.
 

Offline PinheadBE

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2015, 10:54:43 am »
"Don't turn it on, take it apart!"

I want to see the guts of the beast!
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Offline WVL_KsZeN

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2015, 11:25:44 am »
I wonder if the T has a faster processor or more memory then the X. It would be interesting if the FFT from the T could make an appearance on the X. I guess it doesn't make sense commercially though..
 

Offline DJ

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #46 on: January 09, 2015, 07:57:28 pm »
All the way back on p30 of the 37 page (!) data sheet, it notes the 8" screen has a resolution of 800 x 480.

They also continue to benchmark against similarly-priced Tek, when I suspect their real competition is much less expensive Chinese brands.

My guess is keysight will gradually lean towards high-end stuff. As US .mil spending wanes, and Chinese .mil expands, they may lose that too.

Still stumped that Keysight doesn't do just the box, and couple it to a tablet with a decent display, a la Samsung Galaxy Note 12.2
 

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2015, 10:36:30 pm »
They also continue to benchmark against similarly-priced Tek, when I suspect their real competition is much less expensive Chinese brands.

The MDO3000 is huge competition for them.
The Rigol 4000 is also a threat, but at that high end price range of the 500MHz models the majority would still opt for the "big three" names.
Rigol don't have a matching 1GHz model.

On the 2000 X-Series, yes Rigol is their main competition they are worried about.

Quote
Still stumped that Keysight doesn't do just the box, and couple it to a tablet with a decent display, a la Samsung Galaxy Note 12.2

Noone would buy it.
 

Offline Smokey

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #48 on: January 09, 2015, 11:13:26 pm »
Now what would be interesting would be an "Acquisition Box" and then a separate "Remove display AND physical button/knob front panel".  So pretty much take the front panel off the scope and let you carry it around leaving the acquisition hardware on the bench.  That would be pretty cool.
That could be third party hardware too.  Just make an API for the actions and anyone can make a rotary encoder knob board.
 

Offline DJ

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #49 on: January 09, 2015, 11:31:37 pm »
It's crazy to pay $5k and up for low-res touchscreen instruments. Particularly when iPad/Galaxy displays are amortized over millions of units. Make the acq box look like the bottom and right hwlf of the scope, and cradle a world-class touch display in the upper left quadrant. I love the XGA in my 7000 series Agilent, and would never downsize nor down-res.

They are making apps to control the scopes from tablets anyway.

Enough room on my 12.2 Galaxy to display both high res scope and plenty of other stuff (34461a/SDM3055 multimeter charts/5162 AWG display). Not to mention connectivity etc built in.


While Tek and Keysight play Chevy and Ford, the Toyotas and Hondas (think 70's, when their qualities were still hit and miss) are gobbling up the low end, with sights on moving up. History does have that habit of repeating.
 

Offline DJ

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2015, 11:46:37 pm »
Just to underscore this, when you say 800x480 touchscreen to someone, it conjures up this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/IRULU-9-800-x-480-Android-4-2-8GB-Tablet-Touchscreen-Dual-Core-Cam-WiFi-w-Case-/351098562776

Cheaping out on the man-machine interface is not the way to get it done.

Understood that vertical res on these scopes is 8 bits. Maybe it's time to work on that. Easy enough to boxcar/rolling avg to get into 12-bit territory. These displays can't even do 10-bit.

Help us old guys with bad eyes out. BIG screens with Lots of resolution.


ETA: Same goes for DMM/AWG/ SA and so on. EVERY instrument over $500 should have the ability to use a bigger display. DVI/HDMI/WiFi or BT to a tablet, etc. Stop making us squint!!!
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 11:52:27 pm by DJ »
 

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2015, 12:09:14 am »
Big screens are a delight to work with. I had a 17" display driven from an Agilent 80something (1GHz Infiniium) on a repositionable arm and it made poking around circuits so much easier. I could probe and glance at the display without moving my head, critical when trying to keep probes on eeentsy tiny components.  Not only that, other engineers or techs can see waveforms without crouching over the person doing the work. Try it! It is liberating!
 

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2015, 12:20:45 am »
In any case, correct me if I am wrong, didn't Dave mention the resolution was fixed by virtue of reusing the same ASICs.

Yes, and that is why the big screen 4000 series had the same resolution. The ASIC maps the waveform data directly to the screen. It is also the reason why the waveform can't be expanded to include the full screen, it's a fixed map area.
 

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2015, 09:07:08 am »
Bringing the advanced maths and segmented memory as standard is nice, they were features hard to convince people of the value of but are a pleasure to use.

The front end boards are still stratified into 100-200MHz, 350-500MHz, and 1000MHz variants so the slightly increased sample rate probably isn't much of a change.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2015, 09:25:23 am »
Help us old guys with bad eyes out. BIG screens with Lots of resolution.

Take a look at the Agilent 7000 Series scope. That screen is so big it is a real pleasure to work with.
It has a 12.1" XGA display and good size letters of text, easily readable



« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 09:26:58 am by HighVoltage »
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Offline DanielS

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2015, 12:59:01 pm »
Still stumped that Keysight doesn't do just the box, and couple it to a tablet with a decent display, a la Samsung Galaxy Note 12.2
I doubt the display update rate would be anywhere near as good if the screen had to get dumped over LAN/WiFi.

And personally, I really like having physical knobs and buttons.
 

Offline xDR1TeK

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2015, 01:31:29 pm »
So I went ahead and looked up the price tag for this one the MSO-X 3104T.

 15K+ USD.

Well, I don't see how that is interesting. It is a bloody toy for a bloody rich kid who wants flashy colors and two strippers on some shiny pole, and that isn't with all the functionality included even. You have to pay for the extras. Bloody yarn balls, they keep low balling suckers in the nut sack!!!! and they ask for more?

I don't know about you guys, but I think I can look up some hardware for the same specs with lower price tag and it doesn't have to be from the mainland either. Forget about the MTBF, that is just a load of dun, predictions are for your horoscopes....
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 01:43:59 pm by xDR1TeK »
 

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2015, 01:44:04 pm »
So I went ahead and looked up the price tag for this one the MSO-X 3104T.

 15K+ USD.

Well, I don't see how that is interesting. It is a bloody toy for a bloody rich kid who wants flashy colors and two strippers on some shiny pole, and that isn't with all the functionality included even. You have to pay for the extras. Bloody yarn balls, they keep low balling suckers in the nut sack!!!! and they ask for more?

I don't know about you guys, but I think I can look up some hardware for the same specs with lower price tag and it doesn't have to be from the mainland either. Forget about the MTBF, that is just a load of dun, predictions are for your horoscopes....

You won't get the same specs. Nor will you get the same support.

Sorry, but these are not targetted at cheap hobbyists, they're made for professionals and companies.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2015, 01:55:49 pm »
The starting price for the 3000T series in Germany is Euro 2700 for the two channel version and I think this is a reasonable price for a professional scope.
http://www.datatec.de/Oszilloskope-Probes/Oszilloskope-Keysight/Keysight-InfiniiVision-Oszilloskope/Keysight-3000T-Oszilloskop-Serie/index.htm
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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2015, 03:06:05 pm »
MSOX3024T with all licenses ~13K Euro. Better try to get a used 4 channel MSOX3024A with all licenses for a third of the the price.
I admit, I had my prejudices with the touch screen. During Daves video I thought sometimes "nah - don't need it" and sometimes I though "well, quicker as with the regular knobs and buttons".
But then - at the end of the video (at 35:30) - Dave reaffirmed my prejudices by showing the screen of the scope :o (see screenshot attached) and now I know: no, I DO NOT WANT a smeared and smudgy screen covered with fingerprints and dirt.
I know enough people who do not care - many seem to even never clean their glasses. Brrrrr. But I do care - I want a clean screen.  My mobile phone can be cleaned quickly by wiping it at my shirt or trousers, the scope will need a dedicated peace of cloth laying around and will need some time to be cleaned.
But in a few years, when they finally invented grease repellent screens, I probably will be interested....
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 03:10:09 pm by Pinkus »
 

Offline Lukas

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2015, 04:55:48 pm »
Still stumped that Keysight doesn't do just the box, and couple it to a tablet with a decent display, a la Samsung Galaxy Note 12.2
I doubt the display update rate would be anywhere near as good if the screen had to get dumped over LAN/WiFi.

And personally, I really like having physical knobs and buttons.
We've got hardware H264 encoders these days. The mobile device only has to stream video.
 

Offline Zad

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2015, 04:07:26 pm »
I can stream 4K HD video from YouTube, I can't imagine video over ethernet would tax modern technology that much, even with a requirement for low latency. Even simple RLL compression would massively reduce scope display bandwidth.

Whilst I totally agree that "retina" type resolution would be a waste on low resolution applications like 8-bit oscilloscopes, I do think that they provide the potential for a clearer and more usable graphical interface. Applications such as frequency domain analysis and data logging trend trackers can also benefit from the resolution.


Offline LordNobady

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #62 on: January 12, 2015, 08:58:39 am »
Take a look at the Agilent 7000 Series scope. That screen is so big it is a real pleasure to work with.
It has a 12.1" XGA display and good size letters of text, easily readable
we have a MSO-x 4000 And the screen is a joy to work with. bigger screen means you see more from the data.

MSOX3024T with all licenses ~13K Euro. Better try to get a used 4 channel MSOX3024A with all licenses for a third of the the price.
I admit, I had my prejudices with the touch screen. During Daves video I thought sometimes "nah - don't need it" and sometimes I though "well, quicker as with the regular knobs and buttons".
But then - at the end of the video (at 35:30) - Dave reaffirmed my prejudices by showing the screen of the scope :o (see screenshot attached) and now I know: no, I DO NOT WANT a smeared and smudgy screen covered with fingerprints and dirt.
I know enough people who do not care - many seem to even never clean their glasses. Brrrrr. But I do care - I want a clean screen.  My mobile phone can be cleaned quickly by wiping it at my shirt or trousers, the scope will need a dedicated peace of cloth laying around and will need some time to be cleaned.
But in a few years, when they finally invented grease repellent screens, I probably will be interested....

As a user of a 4000 with touchscreen i can say that with normal analog work I don't use it a lot. with the wave-gen I don't use anything else. I believe it is possible to do it with the knobs. also when using serial decoding and measurements functions I use it sometimes. And if it is on you don't see the fingerprint as much.
 

Offline Rutger

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #63 on: January 12, 2015, 07:03:02 pm »
Great review, but all I can think is; what happened to the review of the new Rigol DS1000Z...  Did Keysight 'bribe' you not the review it?


Don't be ridiculous. And I've explained why a dozen times.

Actually I was just joking, but your response is ridiculous. I haven't seen any explanation why the review wasn't released on this channel. All I know is you released it on the 'supported' channel and that there is a jitter issue. When are you going to release the review on this channel?
 

Offline con-f-use

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2015, 03:06:38 pm »
Did I blink in the wrong place or was there no mention of price? (Or is asking about the price the wrong thing to do...  :-X )
Dave said it will be the same price as the older MSOX3000A model

Any reasons to buy a Keysight DSOX3000T series instead of an equivalent a a lot cheaper Rigol MSO/DS2000A Series ?
A few but not worth it IMHO. Smart probes, bandwidth, touch screen, better fft features and a few options already included.

Keysight took their sweet time engineering the MegaZoom. It was superior to anything else on the market. Now that competitors catch up, Keysight is unlocking features and making easy one-ups because they have reserves. But, I guarantee that after there is a clearly better scope from Rigol or Techtronix, Agilent will release the next generation ASIC and scopes based on it. They are just adding wank as long as they. I'd wait for the real deal - they're just milking the cash cow with no real effort as anyone would.

Pity they had to change the main board and the FPGA, if they had just wacked on the touch screen, it would have been a really easy hack. But still there is room for both soft and hardware hacking.

I hope they'll upgrade the DSO2000A soon. I'd like to see serial decoding on the logic channels. That's the greatest shortcoming of the 2000

 

Offline EvilGeniusSkis

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #65 on: January 13, 2015, 05:37:24 pm »
I am very surprised at the 250kh MTBF, I would have thought that the electrolytic caps. in the PSU would fail well before that.
 

Offline phenol

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #66 on: January 13, 2015, 08:22:04 pm »
MTBF of 250khrs does NOT mean that the scope should last for an average of 250khrs.
The actual probability that any one particular scope will survive to its claimed MTBF is merely 36.8% (e^-1). in other words, 63% will fail by those 250khrs. MTBF calculations do not apply when wearout, whether caps in psu, encoders and whatnot, is involved.
 

Offline xDR1TeK

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Re: EEVblog #701 - Keysight 3000T Oscilloscope Review
« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2015, 06:16:28 pm »
So I went ahead and looked up the price tag for this one the MSO-X 3104T.

 15K+ USD.

Well, I don't see how that is interesting. It is a bloody toy for a bloody rich kid who wants flashy colors and two strippers on some shiny pole, and that isn't with all the functionality included even. You have to pay for the extras. Bloody yarn balls, they keep low balling suckers in the nut sack!!!! and they ask for more?

I don't know about you guys, but I think I can look up some hardware for the same specs with lower price tag and it doesn't have to be from the mainland either. Forget about the MTBF, that is just a load of dun, predictions are for your horoscopes....

You won't get the same specs. Nor will you get the same support.

Sorry, but these are not targetted at cheap hobbyists, they're made for professionals and companies.

Fair enough.
 


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