Author Topic: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card  (Read 42107 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 32016
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« on: March 01, 2015, 04:50:28 am »
Sony's have released a new Audiophile / Audiophool "Low Noise" SDXC memery card. It's only 5 times the price of a regular card!
The SR-64HXA will really make your music sound superlative!
And even better again on Sony's new $1100 ZX2 Audiophile grade Walkman!
http://www.sony.jp/sd/products/SR-HXA/

 

Offline Muttley Snickers

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2111
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2015, 05:13:06 am »
Louder and more definitive Oh's perhaps ?   :palm: :bullshit:


Knickers
 

Online Refrigerator

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 969
  • Country: lt
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2015, 05:25:32 am »
That's got to be the first time i heard Dave drop the f-bomb.  :scared:
I have a blog at http://brimmingideas.blogspot.com/ . Now less empty than ever before !
 

Offline jpenn

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 17
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2015, 05:32:16 am »
Instead of ones and zeros they must be using ONES and ZEROS. Don’t forget its HIGH fidelity! Or maybe it’s the high impact plastic it’s wrapped in.
 

Online Refrigerator

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 969
  • Country: lt
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2015, 05:39:25 am »
Instead of ones and zeros they must be using ONES and ZEROS. Don’t forget its HIGH fidelity! Or maybe it’s the high impact plastic it’s wrapped in.
Or maybe instead of ones and zeros they have zeros and ones ?
I have a blog at http://brimmingideas.blogspot.com/ . Now less empty than ever before !
 

Offline george graves

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1259
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2015, 05:43:49 am »
Seemed more like an eevBLAB.  Was surprised at how short it was!

Offline mitchy93

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 1
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2015, 05:50:01 am »
shall i buy a $1K, diamond HDMI cable and $10K ethernet cable to go with that aswell?
 
The following users thanked this post: PinheadBE

Offline pickle9000

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2185
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2015, 05:52:19 am »
Is Sony opening itself up to a lawsuit?
 

Offline Razor512

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2015, 05:55:42 am »
I wonder, how much will the lower noise benefit the device when most SD card slots are at least partially shielded


and that the internet components do not really many active components beyond a random die taking up the space

Some internal photos of micro SD cards.


Also what frequencies are these devices operating at, and will any of the noise made by the SD card, make it through the low-pass filter of the amplifier?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 06:03:07 am by Razor512 »
 

Offline nitro2k01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 844
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2015, 06:10:37 am »
As pointed out in previous threads, what the card is likely trying to solve is conducted noise that causes ripple in the supply rails, and interferes with the analog parts of the player. Shielding does not help against that. Bigger decoupling caps or better power regulation does. If you've ever used a player where you hear a slight buzz or sizzling noise burst when changing a track or browsing through files etc, that's it. Some laptops can pick up similar noises through the power rail, for example coming from hard drive activity or moving a window while the computer is idle because CPU leaves and enter sleep mode periodically.

Granted, this is an overpriced, overmarketed piece of crap that solves a problem that shouldn't exist, but simply mocking it as complete snake oil doesn't help further the world's collective knowledge.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 07:08:23 am by nitro2k01 »
Whoa! How the hell did Dave know that Bob is my uncle? Amazing!
 

Offline jpenn

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 17
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2015, 06:11:33 am »
Is somebody's calendar off? It's not April fools day yet. Ya got 1 month t go.
 

Offline nowlan

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 642
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2015, 06:11:44 am »
Certainly seems short enough to be a blab.
Are there* any consumer watch dogs who might call them out on their bullshit?
 

Offline Razor512

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2015, 06:15:34 am »
The issue is, how will the noise from the SD card compare to all of the various switching regulators and other noise producing components on the PCB of your average smartphone?
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15429
  • Country: za
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2015, 06:39:51 am »
A solution caused by the cheapness of the designer. If your card is causing audio noise the player needs to be taken and returned to the designer with a generous coating of pure Capsaicin oil applied. Can be taken either end, though oral application along with a generous drink to wash it down is preferred. Liquid of choice is denotanium in methanol.
 

Offline 0b01010011

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 69
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2015, 07:24:21 am »
Akio Morita must be spinning in his grave.

From Trinitron to Betamax to Walkman to bullshit.
 

Offline edy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2187
  • Country: ca
    • DevHackMod Channel
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2015, 07:57:22 am »
Correct me if I'm wrong....

But I thought the whole point of digital encoding is that signals get rounded to either 0 or 1 (low or a high voltage) so that any "noise" produced in transmission on top of the actual signal never actually impacts the accurate reproduction/interpretation of what the bits should be?

As a quick example....if we are using a system where 0 V is "0" and 5 V is supposed to be a "1", the noise can ride on top to a huge degree because even then, a 0-2.5V signal will automatically be interpreted as a "0" bit, and signals in the range of 2.5-5.0V would be considered a high or "1" bit (in reality it wouldn't be that huge amount of noise anyways)?

And as far as hearing goes, wouldn't it be the DAC that needs to be low noise? Accurately converting the digital stream into actual analog voltages to drive speakers and not having inaccuracies introduced (aka "noise")? Is Sony trying to say that their "better low noise" SD CARD produces a cleaner signal to the DAC input (which wouldn't matter a heap of sh#t) or that it introduces less noise to the circuitry that would produce noise on the DAC output?

Maybe I'm overthinking this and it is a complete pile of sh#t as Dave says.

Oh... and their digital Walkman that costs $1200.... It supports lossless codecs like FLAC and others. How does it sound any better than any other device that can play lossless? The only way I see is that they have built a superior DAC, or they are supporting higher-bit encoded files per sample (like 24-bit) to increase the resolution over the 16-bit (and whether you could possibly even resolve this with your ear is another matter altogether).... Same argument goes for TV's these days that are trying to increase the color-depth as well. More Marketing Bullsh#t.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 08:05:48 am by edy »
YouTube: www.devhackmod.com LBRY: https://lbry.tv/@winegaming:b
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain" - Scotty
 

Offline NRoach44

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 31
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2015, 08:09:32 am »
https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/2wghhg/sony_releases_160_64_gb_sd_cards_marketed_for/coqmogx

Quote
EDIT: Since i keep getting replies from people who missed this:

In my second point, I am referring to the possibility of interference from an SD card affecting the signal reproduction of an ANALOG TO DIGITAL RECORDING DEVICE.
I am not referring to the SD card mangling or otherwise effecting a digital signal due to interference..

Two points:

First, I'm not sure this is being targeted at end users.

Second, electrical interference from capacitors, motors, and other sources can and will get picked up by audio interfaces.

Computer equipment is VERY prone to generating that interference.

It's a severe enough issue that most professional audio recording uses external usb/firewire audio interfaces when recording directly to a computer. It's just easier to avoid the problems that it is to try and shield things like the computer's CPU.

Stand alone audio recording interfaces are used for on-site recording when you can't be in a studio. Most of them will record to a laptop via USB/firewire, but a large number of the newest ones can record directly to SD.

$160 for an internally shielded SD card is not that much compared to the results of having a whine from a failing card show up in a live recording.

EDIT: If it's got traces/wires and current, it has a magnetic field.
Shielding helps, but portable audio gear rarely includes a faraday cage between the SD card and the inputs.
 

Offline nitro2k01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 844
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2015, 08:18:12 am »
But I thought the whole point of digital encoding is that signals get rounded to either 0 or 1 (low or a high voltage) so that any "noise" produced in transmission on top of the actual signal never actually impacts the accurate reproduction/interpretation of what the bits should be?
See my post on page 1. The claim is most likely that it the card has less interference to the analog circuitry, not that it reproduces the digital data better.
The issue is, how will the noise from the SD card compare to all of the various switching regulators and other noise producing components on the PCB of your average smartphone?
Switching regulators, CPU clocks etc mostly operate at higher frequencies which are 1) well above the audible frequency range 2) easy to filter out. If the SD card draws a large current spike 1000 time over the course of a second, the supply voltage at some other place will move up and down 1000 times per second, and you may get interference at 1000 Hz. This should really only be a problem for writes, which consume far more power than reads, but badly written software may write to the SD card unnecessarily. And still, an SD card is not the only possible source of such interference, and if it happens it's a sign of bad design of the player. The above suggestion involving capsaicin might indeed be appropriate.
Whoa! How the hell did Dave know that Bob is my uncle? Amazing!
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 15344
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2015, 08:44:38 am »
Certainly seems short enough to be a blab.
Are there* any consumer watch dogs who might call them out on their bullshit?

Probably not because they need someone who is "qualified" to be able to rule on it.
 

Offline malloc

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 3
  • Country: de
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2015, 08:44:59 am »
Well ... when Dave started with sony's technical innovations - the first thing that came to my mind was their usage of XCP.

But his explanations on the whiteboard really made my day so far.  :-DD

Thanks Dave - you got me to start this day with a huge smile.
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 15344
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2015, 08:45:55 am »
Is Sony opening itself up to a lawsuit?

I'd hope so, if you can get a judge to understand the technicalities.
 

Offline JoeN

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 990
  • Country: us
  • We Buy Trannies By The Truckload
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2015, 08:53:08 am »
Is it April 1 already again?

This is hard to believe.  This should be far beneath the dignity of Sony.  This kills the credibility of their entire product line for me doing something like this.  I'm angry.

As pointed out in previous threads, what the card is likely trying to solve is conducted noise that causes ripple in the supply rails.

Are you shitting me?  I don't buy that for a second.  But assuming it's a problem, where do you solve it - in every SD card with caps that need to fit into an ultra-small device and need to be on EVERY SD card made, or on the SD card slot within the actual player, requiring only one set of caps?  If it's a problem, the designer of the player has already solved this.  I find it hard to believe its a problem, though.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 08:57:37 am by JoeN »
Have You Been Triggered Today?
 

Offline G7PSK

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3705
  • Country: gb
  • It is hot until proved not.
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2015, 09:44:48 am »
Sony's zero's are better than any one else's,They are more zero, rounder with less distortion. The 1's are straighter with less bend and wobble. That's Patently obvious and no doubt their lawyers will take you to the cleaners if you try to infringe.  :-DD
 
The following users thanked this post: PinheadBE

Offline george graves

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1259
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2015, 10:09:22 am »
The only exception I can think of is codecs that have error correction built into them on the decode end.  Like Sony's DV (and the pro version DVCAM) tapes.  Yes, it's all 1's and 0's....but with a tape format you'll get errors(physical imperfections in the tape).  So to over come that, it would look at past B-frames, and interpolate.  And other codecs do this as well, if they can't re-read the data.  I wonder how something as simple as a MP3 player would deal with a error?  I'm sure that it's a bit stream, but with some kind of markers.  So, if it got a error in the data, would it try to correct it?  Or just play the garbled bits as audio?

Dave mentioned, but downplayed Sony's domination in the pro video production world.  It didn't just stop with Betamax....that later became Betacam SP.  99% of TV you watched in the 90's was most likely coming from or shot on BetacamSP.  Sony dominated the market.  The most popular editor/recorder was the UVW-1800.  Sticker price as about $25k back in the day.  Now you can get one for about $100.  Would love to see a tear down of one.

Sony isn't dead, but they did shoot themselves in the foot for consumer products as a brand - to people in the know.  For my mom, it's still a trusted brand. 

Now-a-days....They make most of the cameras for smart phones..iphone, samsung. And do a good job at it.

They also sell life insurance....oddly enough.  Apparently - besides movies, they make a ton of money from it.  http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/28/business/global/sonys-bread-and-butter-its-not-electronics.html

Would have liked to seen that mentioned.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 10:35:36 am by george graves »
 

Offline FHR

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 20
  • Country: cz
  • I love Linux
    • FHRNet.eu
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2015, 10:23:05 am »
Hey Dave, that SD card is just the tip of the iceberg. Try this: http://www.audioquest.com/ethernet/diamond
Ethernet cable; 5500$ for 8 meters.
Want a power cable for 7000$? This is for you. http://www.audioquest.com/power-cables/wel-signature
 

Offline PinheadBE

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • Country: be
  • Pinball Freak
    • The Belgian Pinball Forum
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2015, 10:26:55 am »
Is it April 1 already again?

This is hard to believe.  This should be far beneath the dignity of Sony.  This kills the credibility of their entire product line for me doing something like this.  I'm angry.


I totally agree.
Some brands are known for doing a living from that sort of crap, but hey.. Sony !   :wtf:
I always owned a walkman, a discman and even a MiniDisc.  Sony is, indeed, at least for me, a synonym of real innovation in audio and video, affordable to the common people and quality driven.

But now....  I don't know if I ever would trust them again....

Are they in such a catastrophic situation that they really need to risk their credibility by selling THIS  ???
And to whom ?
A real "audiophile" will not buy a Sony "audiophile" product, because, well, as I said above, Sony is affordable to common people. 
An audiophile will never consider himself as a common people, will he ?

At least, I had a good laugh by seeing Dave's whiteboard in that episode.  :-DD :clap:
The Belgian Pinball Forum: http://ericpinballforum.be/
Please keep our planet clean
 

Offline andtfoot

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 352
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2015, 10:33:31 am »
I'm not a fan of their displays/TVs, but the Sony professional projectors and PTZ cameras I work with are still up there in my view. I reckon the laser projectors (VPL-FHZ55 and VPL-FHZ700L) are the best that I've seen in their class .
 

Offline TheEPROM9

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 236
  • Country: gb
  • I have a Kali USB and I'm not afraid to use it!
    • EPROM 9 Home
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2015, 10:55:41 am »
It is very sad and peripatetic, SONY use to be the bast.  :-+

Then in the 2000s whoever innovated was dematerialized for generic crap that all the other company's produce.  :--

Now there's this crap.  |O



Why the hell reputable company's spread this bull.  :bullshit: Guess SONY cannot be considered reputable anymore. Even Panasonic has spread this shit in the past.

Just like there are plenty of people calling out religion on it's bull, we need more people calling out company's on this sort of bull.

TheEPROM9 (The Husky Hunter Collectors inc.)
Knowledge should be sheared freely to those who want it.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/146977913@N06/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4vOnjz1G-aM8LddSbrK1Vg https://www.facebook.com/groups/118910608126229/
 

Offline TheEPROM9

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 236
  • Country: gb
  • I have a Kali USB and I'm not afraid to use it!
    • EPROM 9 Home
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2015, 11:04:58 am »
all this reminds me of just how motherboard factories market their boards.

the design could be likely a 1% improvement , but marketing just have to make it look like  .... 5x MORE ....or ...  216% ... or ... no LAG ... font size is important :P

if they are so adament about noise, why dont they put in a LM399 specifically to regulate the voltage of that SD card? while at it ... a 1ppm tempco SD card HAHAHA  :-DD.

It is all dependent on the network speed. If you have it hooked to a crap network, it is lag city for you. Amazes me that people fall for this crap. I did not know that the mobo company's spread this crap.
TheEPROM9 (The Husky Hunter Collectors inc.)
Knowledge should be sheared freely to those who want it.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/146977913@N06/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4vOnjz1G-aM8LddSbrK1Vg https://www.facebook.com/groups/118910608126229/
 

Offline PGrant

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 7
  • Country: scotland
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2015, 11:24:21 am »
 :wtf: That's crazy.

Still I (somehow) don't think it's as bad as those who will pay $3000 for a 1 meter "low noise" power cable.  :palm:
 

Offline GoldSrc

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 15
  • Country: mx
  • Billions and billions
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2015, 12:31:01 pm »
Poor Sony.
But either way idiots will buy this crap, after all, if it costs more it should "sound better"  :-DD.
The stars died so that you could be here today.
 

Offline namek

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 3
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2015, 12:42:17 pm »
This one made my day. I guess it's a month early.
 

Offline daro-1

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 4
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2015, 12:59:04 pm »
 So Sony has entered the electronic snake oil market now with this & the Audiophool punters will buy it.

The old saying is so true that there is a sucker born every minute. LMFAO  :-DD
 

Offline namek

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 3
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2015, 01:12:31 pm »
#facepalm

The other thread has detailed why this card has a measurable effect. Let's wait for some double blind tests to prove our disprove it. It's it on 5/3.

I'm really disappointed that you didn't bother to do some actual calculations or investigation. If you had you would have noticed the difficulty of filtering small amounts of noise in 24 bit DACs. More over, toy didn't consider that the nose from an SD card changes over time due to the access pattern. Again, of you had researched this you would have found that Sony discussed it extensively in the Japanese media.

Because Google knows that I can read Japanese it gives me Japanese search results along side English ones. I also read a lot of Japanese news sites. All the western coverage has been like yours - reactionary and uniformed. 24 bit audio isn't even really a thing in the west yet.

And yes, I can reliably ABX 24 bit audio. It really is not difficult, and my hearing isn't that good either.

It's digital, so media for audio shouldn't matter. All filtering must be done just before signal enters dac and or leaves it. Digital interface is used to overcome analog signal flaws. So this design tries to fix flaws which aren't there. Or they purposely flaws their player design to filter signal there, where it shouldn't be filtered.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 01:30:20 pm by namek »
 

Offline moogli

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 3
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2015, 01:21:27 pm »
Many "audiophile" products make improvements to an aspect that doesn't effect the endresult that much. A SD Card that produces less digital noise (on its supply rails, or via its emitted electromagnetic fields) is - of course - an improvement by itself. Can it possibly affect the audio of a player? It could, but its not very likely that its really a significant effect. We shouldn't hear digital noise at all if the player has been designed carefully. Its of course possible to keep away digital noise from analog circuits, of course, but its not super-easy, I designed mixed-signal stuff myself and struggled with that, too. My Laptop (not a cheap one) for example doesn't filter it 100%, its outputs has clearly audible digital noise, and my middle-class MP3 Player as well. A Sony branded one, by the way :D And I don't consider myself beeing an "audiophile" or heaving golden ears.

So what do I think here... I guess that the rest of the digital circuit, the processor, its memory and display probably plays a bigger role in producing possibly audible digital noise, but who knows? I think its at least possible to find measurable improvements in digital noise at the outputs of (some) MP3 players of an electrically more "silent" SD card.

Filtering something does never mean that something is totally "gone", its always just attenuation. So double filtering, or components that are more silent in the first place, might improve things. The only question is, if it makes sense. For example if the effect of the digital noise produced by the SD card already sits way below the noise floor of the DAC. But thats very tough to answer without taking real-world measurements. Why not do this? I suggest that for a video :-) Take a middle class MP3 Player and compare a super-cheap SD Card with the audiophile card. Playback a silent MP3 and a silent WAV (higher data rate = more memory accesses) and measure the outputs with a scope & spectrum analyzer. In my opinion thats the only way to really say: Ok, this doesnt do anything.
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12189
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2015, 01:27:32 pm »
Anyone want to buy one & send it to me for x-raying?
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline alter Ratz

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: at
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2015, 01:34:28 pm »
shall i buy a $1K, diamond HDMI cable and $10K ethernet cable to go with that aswell?

I have I premium HQ WIFI cable, which I only use occasionally. Its signal to noise ratio is 3.14 dB better than the best competitor brand and the cable shielding is made of pure 24k gold. I could let you have it for a good price. (~$12k) ;)

Best Regards,
Bernhard
 

Offline alter Ratz

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: at
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2015, 01:42:44 pm »
FYI: Sony did not invet the walkman but rather steal the invention from a german inventor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Pavel

However, they did not pay him any royalties until 2003 when he was almost bankrupted by the legal battle against Sony. This is how the patent system is supposed to work: If manufacture something similar like a big company you are sued for patent infringement and f***ed quite good, the other way around ... not so much.

Best Regards,
Bernhard
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 01:44:32 pm by alter Ratz »
 

Offline nitro2k01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 844
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2015, 03:30:36 pm »
As pointed out in previous threads, what the card is likely trying to solve is conducted noise that causes ripple in the supply rails.

Are you shitting me?  I don't buy that for a second.  But assuming it's a problem, where do you solve it - in every SD card with caps that need to fit into an ultra-small device and need to be on EVERY SD card made, or on the SD card slot within the actual player, requiring only one set of caps?  If it's a problem, the designer of the player has already solved this.  I find it hard to believe its a problem, though.
Well, I've had this very problem in some devices taking SD cards. For fun I've written programs exploiting this effect on a CPU by making it go in and out of sleep mode periodically to create a very faint tone that plays a melody by interfering with the audio amplfier. (That time, the effect was created by the CPU, not an SD card.) Is this a problem to be solved by an SD card? No. Is this a $150 problem? Absolutely not! Whatever noises can be created by this effect are between "barely perceptible" and "easily outpowered by your breathing" in strength. From a marketing standpoint, this is bullshit. I'm simply drawing a line between "there's plausibly something there" and "there's absolutely nothing there" where the latter category includes shakti stones and oxygen free copper cables.

There are also two ironies in this. First, if their player is audiophile grade as they claim it is, this is exactly where they should be able to afford to design away this problem in the player and NOT need this card. And secondly, this card likely has properties that would otherwise be considered undesirable in an SD card. For example, slower write speeds (to consume less power and interfere less with the power rail).
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 03:49:59 pm by nitro2k01 »
Whoa! How the hell did Dave know that Bob is my uncle? Amazing!
 

Offline R_Gtx

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2015, 03:45:32 pm »
Anybody who has worked in an anechoic chamber will know that silence is a myth. You hear the constant sound of the pumping and flow of your own blood. So really, this truly, is aimed at the brain dead.
 

Offline vlad777

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 326
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2015, 04:40:41 pm »
Every computer I ever had makes so much noise on analog audio TRS jack.
Very much correlated with video rendering.

@edy

Digital is resistant to noise IF you are not talking about the clock signal or other edge signals.
24 bit is good. If you ever listened to classical music (which I don't).
Dynamic range is a big thing in classical music, they go very silent and then boom. (You need to have resolution for the silent stuff.)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 04:43:35 pm by vlad777 »
Mind over matter. Pain over mind. Boss over pain.
-------------------------
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15429
  • Country: za
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2015, 05:20:06 pm »
Well, this is Sony, so probably the Sony new generation Walkman will only work with the specified Sony media, and with other media will be programmed to reduce the audio quality to 8 bit. Probably will result in some fake cards being programmed to report that they are genuine Phony cards to fool this.
 

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3119
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2015, 05:34:38 pm »
Someone at Sony sees this as an easy way to make money (duh, no kidding!). 

In our household, Sony "jumped the shark" already in 2006 with the rootkit scandal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal   :wtf:

You really know deep down that a company has lost the plot when they do something like that.

Ever since then, all Sony products have been avoided like the plague here.

 

Offline Razor512

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2015, 05:44:10 pm »
Sony's zero's are better than any one else's,They are more zero, rounder with less distortion. The 1's are straighter with less bend and wobble. That's Patently obvious and no doubt their lawyers will take you to the cleaners if you try to infringe.  :-DD

Agreed, I bought one and while listening to my 128kbit MP3's, I could clearly hear the differences, the 1's were more 1, and the 0's were more 0. :)

----------------------------------

Anyway, I also wanted to add, most FLAC audio files are created by ripping the audio CD, thus you are not getting  24-bit/192kHz. You are at best getting the quality of the CD that you can purchase.

 

Offline PinheadBE

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • Country: be
  • Pinball Freak
    • The Belgian Pinball Forum
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2015, 05:51:59 pm »
In our household, Sony "jumped the shark" (...)

Sorry for this slightly off topic question, but I am french-speaking and I do not understand this "jumping the shark" expression Dave used in his vid, as you did here.
What does this mean ? 
The Belgian Pinball Forum: http://ericpinballforum.be/
Please keep our planet clean
 

Offline jpenn

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 17
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2015, 05:54:09 pm »
Is it really about the 1's and 0's? Smells more like number 2 !

BTW I wonder how it would work with video. Maybe it will make my 1080P look like 4K!! :-DD
 

Offline Razor512

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2015, 06:03:33 pm »
Quote
It is all dependent on the network speed. If you have it hooked to a crap network, it is lag city for you. Amazes me that people fall for this crap. I did not know that the mobo company's spread this crap.

From my experience there are some areas where a better NIC helps with ping times.

When doing a large number of connections between 2 computers connected directly via Ethernet, if you use a program such as ixchariot, At full saturation of a gigabit connection the intel server NIC's tend to have slightly better response times (in both the cheap stuff and the quality adapters, you are with ping times that are a tiny fraction of a millisecond, but the server NIC's tend to be a little better (e.g., sometimes up to 3% better. Though the main benefit is with the lower CPU usage, where the more common onboard NIC's will pull like 15-20% CPU usage while handling a simulated enterprise database load at full saturation, but the server NIC's will only be pulling like 5%

At low loads you can't really tell any difference (I tried and unless you are really close to saturating the gigabit connection, the high end and low end NIC's perform pretty much the same (the low end stuff just use more CPU usage while performing the same)

The main benefit of the "killer" NIC is simply the QOS software. it allows you to set up QOS rules so that your gaming traffic can have a higher priority, and thus have lower latency. The issue is the results are not as good as when you set up the QOS rules on your router (which then take into account the network traffic for your entire network (thus preventing a torrent download on another PC from hurting your gaming experience.

If you want something better than the killer NIC for less money, then go with the intel NIC's, you get the benefit of their hardware acceleration so when you fully saturate your gigabit connection, you can be sure that you will be getting slightly better response times as compared to if you were using the onboard realtek stuff.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 06:23:53 pm by Razor512 »
 

Offline Richard Crowley

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4310
  • Country: us
  • KE7GKP
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2015, 06:07:45 pm »
In our household, Sony "jumped the shark" (...)

Sorry for this slightly off topic question, but I am french-speaking and I do not understand this "jumping the shark" expression Dave used in his vid, as you did here.
What does this mean ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15429
  • Country: za
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2015, 06:10:16 pm »
In our household, Sony "jumped the shark" (...)

Sorry for this slightly off topic question, but I am french-speaking and I do not understand this "jumping the shark" expression Dave used in his vid, as you did here.
What does this mean ?

LMGIFY........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark

Hope this helps.
 

Offline PinheadBE

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • Country: be
  • Pinball Freak
    • The Belgian Pinball Forum
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2015, 06:34:02 pm »
Thanks.
Got it  :-+

(Sorry again ....)
The Belgian Pinball Forum: http://ericpinballforum.be/
Please keep our planet clean
 

Offline NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6619
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #50 on: March 01, 2015, 06:35:14 pm »
From my experience there are some areas where a better NIC helps with ping times.

When doing a large number of connections between 2 computers connected directly via Ethernet, if you use a program such as ixchariot, At full saturation of a gigabit connection the intel server NIC's tend to have slightly better response times (in both the cheap stuff and the quality adapters, you are with ping times that are a tiny fraction of a millisecond, but the server NIC's tend to be a little better (e.g., sometimes up to 3% better. Though the main benefit is with the lower CPU usage, where the more common onboard NIC's will pull like 15-20% CPU usage while handling a simulated enterprise database load at full saturation, but the server NIC's will only be pulling like 5%

At low loads you can't really tell any difference (I tried and unless you are really close to saturating the gigabit connection, the high end and low end NIC's perform pretty much the same (the low end stuff just use more CPU usage while performing the same)

The main benefit of the "killer" NIC is simply the QOS software. it allows you to set up QOS rules so that your gaming traffic can have a higher priority, and thus have lower latency. The issue is the results are not as good as when you set up the QOS rules on your router (which then take into account the network traffic for your entire network (thus preventing a torrent download on another PC from hurting your gaming experience.

If you want something better than the killer NIC for less money, then go with the intel NIC's, you get the benefit of their hardware acceleration so when you fully saturate your gigabit connection, you can be sure that you will be getting slightly better response times as compared to if you were using the onboard realtek stuff.
You can enable kernel level QoS with any NIC.

BTW, "Killer" is just a rebranded Qualcomm NIC nowadays.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15429
  • Country: za
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #51 on: March 01, 2015, 06:39:43 pm »
English is my first language, and I still get caught out by regional differences. then you get US english, which is totally different. Same words, similar spelling but you sometimes need a translation to understand...... This having been done correctly however it is a very good language. It has a marked tendency to appropriate words from other languages with ease.
 

Offline jpenn

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 17
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #52 on: March 01, 2015, 07:10:46 pm »
I wonder if this has something to do with Japanese business culture. There are two rules.

1.   The boss is always correct
2.   In the event that the boss is not correct, rule one applies.

Maybe someone at the top got hold of an Audiophool magazine and got the bright idea to sell ultra ultra high end audio gear (aka snake-oil) . Of course the engineers had to comply.

I remember a story I read once about a technical writer who was working on a 35mm film camera instruction manual for a Japanese manufacturer.  When the president saw the finished manual he decided to put his two cents in and he rewrote some of it. If you are not familiar with a 35mmfilm camera the film is loaded into a can that gets spooled out when you wind it to take another picture. When the film reaches the end you have to rewind it back into the can before removing it from the camera. Well if you followed the instructions that came with this camera it would have you open the camera before rewinding the film! It seems no one would inform the boss of his mistake.
 

Offline mxmarek

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 18
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #53 on: March 01, 2015, 07:44:49 pm »
Hand bonded by nude virgins and only 5x the price?
I smell bullshti..
 

Offline zapta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6004
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #54 on: March 01, 2015, 07:47:11 pm »
Seemed more like an eevBLAB.  Was surprised at how short it was!

Need to move fast. #741 is behind the corner.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline dadler

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 848
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #55 on: March 01, 2015, 08:38:21 pm »
Hey Dave, that SD card is just the tip of the iceberg. Try this: http://www.audioquest.com/ethernet/diamond
Ethernet cable; 5500$ for 8 meters.
Want a power cable for 7000$? This is for you. http://www.audioquest.com/power-cables/wel-signature

Quote
DIRECTIONALITY: All audio cables are directional. The correct direction is determined by listening to every batch of metal conductors used in every AudioQuest audio cable. Arrows are clearly marked on the connectors to ensure superior sound quality. For best results have the arrow pointing in the direction of the flow of music. For example, NAS to Router, Router to Network Player.
 

Offline FrankBuss

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2324
  • Country: de
    • Frank Buss
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #56 on: March 01, 2015, 08:46:54 pm »
As pointed out in previous threads, what the card is likely trying to solve is conducted noise that causes ripple in the supply rails, and interferes with the analog parts of the player.
If it has less conducted noise, why did they publish an EMC plot with radiated emissions (my Japanese is a bit rusty, but the y-axis label translates to "radiation intensity") ? And as Dave said, if the audio player has a problem with such low radiated emission levels, then the audio player needs to be fixed. Otherwise all kind of nearby devices could cause problems, if it is within the allowed EMC levels.
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
Electronics, hiking, retro-computing, electronic music etc.: https://www.youtube.com/c/FrankBussProgrammer
 

Offline nitro2k01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 844
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #57 on: March 01, 2015, 10:46:06 pm »
As pointed out in previous threads, what the card is likely trying to solve is conducted noise that causes ripple in the supply rails, and interferes with the analog parts of the player.
If it has less conducted noise, why did they publish an EMC plot with radiated emissions (my Japanese is a bit rusty, but the y-axis label translates to "radiation intensity") ? And as Dave said, if the audio player has a problem with such low radiated emission levels, then the audio player needs to be fixed. Otherwise all kind of nearby devices could cause problems, if it is within the allowed EMC levels.
It was an educated guess, based on my own experience of SD cards. Otherwise, the card really is as useless (in theory and practice) as people insist it is.
Whoa! How the hell did Dave know that Bob is my uncle? Amazing!
 

Offline Excavatoree

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 841
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #58 on: March 02, 2015, 12:16:50 am »
It took me a while to notice, but I believe Dave "Rick Rolled" us as well.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 32016
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #59 on: March 02, 2015, 01:17:56 am »
In the 1970's there was a very popular TV show called "Happy Days".  In one episode during a holiday trip in Hawaii (if I recall correctly) one of the characters in a daring feat on water-skis attempted to jump a shark swimming in a cage in the sea. It was an end of season two part cliff hanger and the show dropped in ratings and quality on the return season. Hence the show was said to "jump the shark" from one season to the next and continued to slide in popularity and quality.

Actually that's not true, Happy Days didn't drop in ratings after the infamous Shark Jump episode, they had their best season ever in fact. But the term Jump The Shark stuck anyway and that's what people remember it as.
 

Offline nowlan

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 642
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #60 on: March 02, 2015, 01:34:31 am »
I had never heard of it either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark
 

Online Wilksey

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1231
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #61 on: March 02, 2015, 01:47:39 am »
Unbelievable, but funny as the f-bomb Dave dropped!

It's 100% correct in the fact that someone who has just paid 5x the amount for a memory card WILL hear the difference because they have told themselves that it is better, much like anything!

There are other companies that used to be innovative that are now about making money (Apple etc), but people still trust the original brand name and will buy it and believe the lies being told, some say it's wrong, some say fair play if you can get away with it, just be prepared to take the consequences when it comes, if, that is, they are at all bothered by them.

Short but funny rant!
 

Offline Fsck

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: ca
  • sleep deprived
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #62 on: March 02, 2015, 01:52:37 am »
if only we could get insider knowledge on their sales predictions.. I'm quite curious about how many of these they expect to sell.
"This is a one line proof...if we start sufficiently far to the left."
 

Offline 0b01010011

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 69
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #63 on: March 02, 2015, 02:14:19 am »
Just a thought - I'm sure this would depend on the player and the software, but wouldn't the device or s/w read the entire track into RAM before playing it? Surely then the micro SD card could be powered down between tracks?

If this was the case surely the audiophool wankery would be for nothing, or at best only a few milliseconds of caching time at the start of each track?
 

Online Wytnucls

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2944
  • Country: be
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #64 on: March 02, 2015, 03:05:23 am »
It's 100% correct in the fact that someone who has just paid 5x the amount for a memory card WILL hear the difference because they have told themselves that it is better, much like anything!

There is something similar going on in the classical music world, where famous performers and music critics are convinced that old famous string instruments sound better than new ones. (A Guarneri or Stradivari violin sells for millions of dollars at auctions).
This was thoroughly debunked in double blind experiments, but the myth lives on.
 

Offline Corporate666

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2007
  • Country: us
  • Remember, you are unique, just like everybody else
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #65 on: March 02, 2015, 03:22:59 am »
Correct me if I'm wrong....

But I thought the whole point of digital encoding is that signals get rounded to either 0 or 1 (low or a high voltage) so that any "noise" produced in transmission on top of the actual signal never actually impacts the accurate reproduction/interpretation of what the bits should be?

As a quick example....if we are using a system where 0 V is "0" and 5 V is supposed to be a "1", the noise can ride on top to a huge degree because even then, a 0-2.5V signal will automatically be interpreted as a "0" bit, and signals in the range of 2.5-5.0V would be considered a high or "1" bit (in reality it wouldn't be that huge amount of noise anyways)?

And as far as hearing goes, wouldn't it be the DAC that needs to be low noise? Accurately converting the digital stream into actual analog voltages to drive speakers and not having inaccuracies introduced (aka "noise")? Is Sony trying to say that their "better low noise" SD CARD produces a cleaner signal to the DAC input (which wouldn't matter a heap of sh#t) or that it introduces less noise to the circuitry that would produce noise on the DAC output?

Maybe I'm overthinking this and it is a complete pile of sh#t as Dave says.

Oh... and their digital Walkman that costs $1200.... It supports lossless codecs like FLAC and others. How does it sound any better than any other device that can play lossless? The only way I see is that they have built a superior DAC, or they are supporting higher-bit encoded files per sample (like 24-bit) to increase the resolution over the 16-bit (and whether you could possibly even resolve this with your ear is another matter altogether).... Same argument goes for TV's these days that are trying to increase the color-depth as well. More Marketing Bullsh#t.

The "rounding" you are thinking of is quantization, but nothing in the design of the memory card has anything to do with quantization.  Selling this memory card for superior sound quality is like selling sheet music printed on canvas vs. regular paper, for superior playback by a violinist reading music.  It's actually much worse than that, because a violinist could miss a note - but a digital music player isn't missing 1's and 0's from a non-audiophile card.

As for higher bit encoded files, it is erroneous to call them "high resolution".  They do not have any more resolution or music information, they just have a lower noise floor.  That's another huge scam of the "audiophile" industry - selling against the ignorance of consumers who equate "high res" audio with "high res" video - or even calling audio "high definition".  It's total marketing wank.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Offline Corporate666

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2007
  • Country: us
  • Remember, you are unique, just like everybody else
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #66 on: March 02, 2015, 03:36:16 am »
Anybody who has worked in an anechoic chamber will know that silence is a myth. You hear the constant sound of the pumping and flow of your own blood. So really, this truly, is aimed at the brain dead.

Thanks for that.

A lot of folks assume that "no sound at all" is achievable, when that's not the case.  Whenever we talk about reducing noise, we need to keep in mind what the real noise floor is - which is never zero.  Reducing some component of the noise floor below that level is like making a picture so vivid that it actually contains IR/UV and X-Ray for superior color.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Offline 99tito99

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 55
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #67 on: March 02, 2015, 04:07:26 am »
NO NO IT IS TRUE:

There is digital noise.

See the file attached below:

The data on the left was recorded on a run-of-the-mill memory card
And, the data on the right was recorded on the Sony Low Noise Audiophool SDXC Memory Card

Cheers,
Mark
***************
 

Offline f1rmb

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 180
  • Country: fr
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #68 on: March 02, 2015, 05:58:01 am »
:-D
 

Offline Barny

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 290
  • Country: at
  • I'm from Austria, not Australia ;)
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #69 on: March 02, 2015, 08:26:25 am »
Sony didn't invent the Walkman.

It was a German who invented it.
Sony's first Walkman prototype was nearly a one to one copy of the german design.

Sony lost the lawsuit after nearly 30 years.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 09:13:30 am by Barny »
 

Offline RupertGo

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 77
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #70 on: March 02, 2015, 12:11:04 pm »
Coincidentally, I've just read this long but really fascinating account http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up of how the marvellously-named Schitt Audio came to be. Tons of stuff about marketing, production, engineering and... well, being a company that decided to call itself Schitt. (Its latest product is the Fulla Schitt, so they know exactly what they're doing.)
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11206
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #71 on: March 02, 2015, 12:25:27 pm »
Question: do you think 24 bit recording is pointless?

24-bit playback: Very probably pointless

24-bit recording: Useful because of all the editing and remixing that happens later. Sound is rarely recorded at the same levels as it's reproduced.

I thought this SONY card was claiming lower EMF emissions and more stable power consumption, not better quality bits output on the SPI bus. Both those things *might* have an influence if you have a really crappy mp3 player.

OTOH you'd be better off spending the money on a better mp3 player than that SD card.
 

Offline GK

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2607
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #72 on: March 02, 2015, 01:09:09 pm »
And yes, I can reliably ABX 24 bit audio. It really is not difficult, and my hearing isn't that good either.


A throwaway line. For one thing I really doubt that you have any idea exactly what is involved in setting up a proper double blind ABX test, let alone having actually participated in one.


Some relevant reading:

http://archimago.blogspot.com.au/2014_06_01_archive.html
Bzzzzt. No longer care, over this forum shit.........ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 

Offline Dinsdale

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 77
  • Country: us
    • pretzelogic
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #73 on: March 02, 2015, 01:20:16 pm »
Well, my cat will enjoy the higher frequency response of this new card. Nothing's too good for my cat.

Quote
Question: do you think 24 bit recording is pointless?
Not if it's accompanied by 60fps recording speed.
This can't be happening.
 

Online daqq

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1865
  • Country: sk
    • My site
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #74 on: March 02, 2015, 01:32:59 pm »
Anyone want to buy one & send it to me for x-raying?
It'll be something like this probably.
Believe it or not, pointy haired people do exist!
+++Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++
 

Offline mixt

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 9
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #75 on: March 02, 2015, 03:01:45 pm »
People who believe that they can hear differences between 16-bit/24-bit or even 44.1kHz/96kHz+ sampling rates fall under these categories:
1. They're wrong and their ABX method is flawed, or they lied about doing ABX because doing a proper ABX is too much work (sorry!)
2. Their hardware/OS is interfering with the audio in a way that makes the output quality vary depending on source parameters (this could be caused by crappy output filters, crappy resamplers, unwanted signal processing somewhere in the chain, interferences caused by poor hardware implementation, etc)
3. In the case of 96kHz+ content, sometimes the ultrasonic information interferes with amplifiers/speakers causing additional issues which peoples' minds can intepret as "different" and "better"
4. "High resolution" content is often mastered differently, so you're hearing an improvement in the mastering process, not an improvement because of the high resolution itself

If you want to be scientific about it, you have to at least look at the output FFT of a test signal at all those test parameters to ensure that your hardware/software isn't messing it up. Check noise floor, check for harmonics, check for unwanted signals and possible intermodulation products, check square wave response to make sure nothing is oscillating (particularly relevant to DIY/modded hardware). The checks should be done at the final outputs (ie, speaker amp or headphones amp output). Do a white noise test and look at an averaged FFT to see if the linearity changes or if funky filters get switched in at different sampling rates, sometimes that's a thing..

In my experience, things that contribute to audio quality, sorted from highest contributing to lowest contibuting:
1. Speakers and room size/acoustics (together, this is by far the biggest factor)
2. Actual source quality (recording/mastering quality, format compression if any, bit-accurate output etc)
3. Basic issues (ground loops, bad power, interference between components - such as from switching PSUs etc)
4. Amplifier
5. DAC quality (power filtering, power regulation, output coupling, opamps/output stages, main clock oscillator phase noise, complexity of clock tree, dac chip jitter sensitivity, choice of dac chip)
6. Source path (ideally you want to avoid things like SPDIF that need clock recovery or cheap USB converters that carry really dirty power into the signal path and/or produce a lot of jitter because of a crappy clock... stick with I2S all the way if you can, since that's what the DAC chips will use). Some hardware generates I2S with microcontrollers or FPGAs, and is asynchronous to, and isolated from, the data input. Beauty.
1369. Your SD card brand (make sure to only use Sony's low-noise SD cards, or all this stuff will be in vain.

I'm a compulsive ABXer and anti-BS hardware dev person. I love proving myself/being proven wrong. I'm lucky enough to be able to hear to ~22kHz. :v I went to music school as kid. I have no friends because I science too much. If you can't trust me, then who can you trust... ;)
 

Offline AF6LJ

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2903
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #76 on: March 02, 2015, 03:05:19 pm »
Now I am use to the face most Americans go through life with suspension of disbelief hard wired in the on position. So it is quite normal to see snake oil, oxygen free copper, and global warming as the norm. All one need do is use the word SCIENCE! and all critical thinking gets turned off, brain in stand by mode....

PT Barnum laughs loud...

Remember if it is SONY it has to be PHONY.
Sue AF6LJ
Test Equipment Addict, And Proud Of It.
 

Offline namek

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 3
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #77 on: March 02, 2015, 03:15:34 pm »
People who believe that they can hear differences between 16-bit/24-bit or even 44.1kHz/96kHz+ sampling rates fall under these categories:
1. They're wrong and their ABX method is flawed, or they lied about doing ABX because doing a proper ABX is too much work (sorry!)
2. Their hardware/OS is interfering with the audio in a way that makes the output quality vary depending on source parameters (this could be caused by crappy output filters, crappy resamplers, unwanted signal processing somewhere in the chain, interferences caused by poor hardware implementation, etc)
3. In the case of 96kHz+ content, sometimes the ultrasonic information interferes with amplifiers/speakers causing additional issues which peoples' minds can intepret as "different" and "better"
4. "High resolution" content is often mastered differently, so you're hearing an improvement in the mastering process, not an improvement because of the high resolution itself

If you want to be scientific about it, you have to at least look at the output FFT of a test signal at all those test parameters to ensure that your hardware/software isn't messing it up. Check noise floor, check for harmonics, check for unwanted signals and possible intermodulation products, check square wave response to make sure nothing is oscillating (particularly relevant to DIY/modded hardware). The checks should be done at the final outputs (ie, speaker amp or headphones amp output). Do a white noise test and look at an averaged FFT to see if the linearity changes or if funky filters get switched in at different sampling rates, sometimes that's a thing..

In my experience, things that contribute to audio quality, sorted from highest contributing to lowest contibuting:
1. Speakers and room size/acoustics (together, this is by far the biggest factor)
2. Actual source quality (recording/mastering quality, format compression if any, bit-accurate output etc)
3. Basic issues (ground loops, bad power, interference between components - such as from switching PSUs etc)
4. Amplifier
5. DAC quality (power filtering, power regulation, output coupling, opamps/output stages, main clock oscillator phase noise, complexity of clock tree, dac chip jitter sensitivity, choice of dac chip)
6. Source path (ideally you want to avoid things like SPDIF that need clock recovery or cheap USB converters that carry really dirty power into the signal path and/or produce a lot of jitter because of a crappy clock... stick with I2S all the way if you can, since that's what the DAC chips will use). Some hardware generates I2S with microcontrollers or FPGAs, and is asynchronous to, and isolated from, the data input. Beauty.
1369. Your SD card brand (make sure to only use Sony's low-noise SD cards, or all this stuff will be in vain.

I'm a compulsive ABXer and anti-BS hardware dev person. I love proving myself/being proven wrong. I'm lucky enough to be able to hear to ~22kHz. :v I went to music school as kid. I have no friends because I science too much. If you can't trust me, then who can you trust... ;)

I think i do hear the difference between 24 and 16bits, but i don't hear any difference between 41khz and 48khz or 96khz. But for my test i use crappy recording, crappy integrated Realtek ALC1200 and crappy speakers/headphones. But in my crappy equipment 24 bits work.
 

Offline xrunner

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4881
  • Country: us
  • hp>Agilent>Keysight>?
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #78 on: March 02, 2015, 03:30:47 pm »
Sony is stupid. Why? Because if you look at the costs of the audiophile products sold to these idiots, like $600 for a 1 meter power cable -

http://www.lessloss.com/dfpc-series-p-213.html

or $1,600 for a 6 ft speaker cable with mono crystal pure copper strands and vibration absorbing nanoparticles (yes they really say that) -

http://www.lessloss.com/anchorwave-interconnects-and-speaker-cables-p-205.html

Sony is stupid because they could charge a whole lot more for the card than they are.  :o
I am a Test Equipment Addict (TEA) - by virtue of this forum signature, I have now faced my addiction
 

Offline AF6LJ

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2903
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #79 on: March 02, 2015, 03:38:43 pm »
Sony is stupid. Why? Because if you look at the costs of the audiophile products sold to these idiots, like $600 for a 1 meter power cable -

http://www.lessloss.com/dfpc-series-p-213.html

or $1,600 for a 6 ft speaker cable with mono crystal pure copper strands and vibration absorbing nanoparticles (yes they really say that) -

http://www.lessloss.com/anchorwave-interconnects-and-speaker-cables-p-205.html

Sony is stupid because they could charge a whole lot more for the card than they are.  :o

I haven't seen any evidence people actually buy that crap.

However;
People are stupid, someone once said there are two things in the Universe that have no limit;
Love
and
Stupidity.
Sue AF6LJ
Test Equipment Addict, And Proud Of It.
 

Online NANDBlog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4836
  • Country: nl
  • Current job: ATEX certified product design
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #80 on: March 02, 2015, 04:08:23 pm »
It is, although it's worth noting that the SPI bus itself has to be carefully managed because otherwise you are going to start seeing high frequency switching noise. Maybe it has better termination than the average card, which would certainly reduce emissions through the contacts.

Even if you disagree that 24 bit playback is worth while, surely you must accept that if the goal is to implement it then very small amounts of electrical noise will quickly raise the system noise floor far above where the digital one is.
While I agree with most of the problems you described, I have to disagree with the memory card SPI related noise. Changing only the memory card in a system will not have any difference in a properly designed system.
The frequency the SPI read bursts happen is below the loop frequency of a power supply. If the power supply rails are properly routed on a board, the burst will be inaduable. Also, the only way to decrease the noise on the Mhz++ level, which they claim they did is to decrease the loading of the digital lines. It is possible that they did this, but most of the loading will be due to the PCB traces anyway. You can argue, that if you decrease the rise time of the signals (not changing the baudrate), that will generate less high frequency noise, but you dont change the microcontroller's rise time, so the total effect is questionable to say the least. Shielding the internals should be by the host, not the card, and the host should have proper bypassing of the power supplies.

It is a snake oil device, even if the basis they used (if there is any) for the changes are scientific facts. It is like putting spikes below your DAC.
Spikes are good for mechanical dampening.
Mechanical forces affect electronics, reference voltage for example (I can give you a linear technology appnote to back this).
But no, putting spikes below a DAC will not have an audible effect.
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11206
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #81 on: March 02, 2015, 05:50:53 pm »
4. "High resolution" content is often mastered differently, so you're hearing an improvement in the mastering process, not an improvement because of the high resolution itself

No kidding.

You remember those SACD disks - 24bit, 192kHz or whatever they were...? They were made in layers - a normal CD at the bottom then the "SACD" layer underneath that.

Well, about ten years ago I dropped one of my favorite CDs and scratched it enough to make it skip.

(Remember when they told use we could drill holes in them? Was that SONY as well?)

So... I went out and bought another copy. But the new copy was crap. It had been "remastered" or something and was all horribly distorted (record companies take real pride in their work, they often used to record CDs onto 48kHz DAT tapes then send them off the duplicators to make a new batch of CDs)

So what could I do? I checked on eBay and saw an "MFSL" version of the CD. MFSL are people who take old records and remaster then into 24 bit recordings.

http://www.mofi.com/

They pride themselves on the quality of their work so I took the plunge and bought the CD. Hopefully I'd get a decent version of the record.

When it arrived it was absolutely awful. It was low pass filtered - no treble left at all.

I assume that SACD players have a button on them to switch between "16-bit CD" and "24-bit SACD" and SACDs are being deliberately mastered so that audiophools canpress "24 bit" and marvel at all the extra treble. (ie. the treble they've deliberately removed on the 16-bit version).

I actually made a comparison of the SACD sound vs. normal CD. There's a GIF below of a waveform with a hissy-whooshy sound in it. Compare the two. It's not even close.

What did I do in the end? I downloaded a FLAC file off the Pirate Bay of course. I own two CDs and a SACD of the music so I figure they can't complain.

(And it's crap like this that made me the pirate I am today...they bring it on themselves)


In my experience, things that contribute to audio quality, sorted from highest contributing to lowest contibuting:
1. Speakers and room size/acoustics (together, this is by far the biggest factor)

Yep. The single biggest thing you can do to improve your HiFi is to move the speakers around, preferably away from walls (and especially corners). And it's free to do (unless it annoys the wife...which it usually does)

The second thing? Spend more on your speakers than the amplifier. It goes against everything that they say in magazines but it really works. I've seen people buy expensive amplifiers and attach total cornflake packets to them.  :palm:

Think though - electronics is mostly a done deal. An EEVBLOG type can build you a damn good amp for $150. It might not look pretty but it'll sound as good as almost anything in the HiFi store. It's just a decent transformer plus a few MOSFETs and other stuff.

Speakers? They're physical objects. They depend a lot on quality materials and good construction. They cost a lot more than $150 to build them properly.

« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 06:05:30 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15429
  • Country: za
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #82 on: March 02, 2015, 06:13:30 pm »
Remember as well, from JLH IIRC, that a $150 speaker might only have has $15 spent on the drivers inside. An amplifier typically has a plateau above which the improvements are logarithmic. You get cheap, then double the price and get adequate, double again to good and then every doubling above that gives a very small improvement if at all.
 

Offline mixt

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 9
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #83 on: March 02, 2015, 06:16:24 pm »
3. In the case of 96kHz+ content, sometimes the ultrasonic information interferes with amplifiers/speakers causing additional issues which peoples' minds can intepret as "different" and "better"

HD audio is low pass filtered to remove content above the audible range anyway. The reason for going to 96KHz is to reduce aliasing of high frequency signals, not to allow higher frequencies.

Quote
4. "High resolution" content is often mastered differently, so you're hearing an improvement in the mastering process, not an improvement because of the high resolution itself

Indeed, but that alone is reason enough to welcome HD audio. One of the reasons why SACD and DVD audio are popular is that they require the mastering process to meet certain requirements set out by Dolby, which includes things like the minimum average dynamic range that limits compression. Same reason people buy old second hand CDs from the 80s, same reason they buy vinyl in fact. Old CDs were properly mastered, vinyl simply can't support the amount of compression that modern CDs can due to limitations of the format.

Hmm I think it's more correct to say that HD audio is lowpass filtered SOMETIMES. A lot of the content I've looked at extended to ~50kHz, some had 24kHz cutoff but not many. SACD will have your characteristic ultrasonic peak as well, which is tamed, but never completely filtered. Aliasing isn't an issue as long as you stay within nyquist. If you play vinyl, then again it will depend on the source. Some 30ips R2R tape machines can do 40kHz+, which is what the masters are recorded on, and what the vinyl is pressed from. Some high quality MC cartridges can do 10Hz - 60kHz within -3dB. Phono stages are supposed to have ultrasonic filters, but they're all different and wildly inconsistent. I don't actually listen to vinyl, but I've developed custom phono stages for clients. :)

I completely agree that older music was mastered better. Studio time was very expensive, and great attention was paid to preserve signal integrity in the analog world - simply because a lot of things could ruin it. These days, it's all digital filters.. but.. how good are they? Who characterizes them? How do they play together? How many people have truly flat monitors? How many people know what "flat" sound should be like? How many people strive for realism and a sense of space, instead of "sound that pops" lol? It took digital reverbs forever to catch up to a real life plate reverb, just due to computational complexity involved for realtime operation. :/

Good primers to understand digital/analog with respect to audio:
http://xiph.org/video/vid1.shtml
http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml
 

Offline mixt

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 9
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #84 on: March 02, 2015, 06:41:13 pm »
Speakers? They're physical objects. They depend a lot on quality materials and good construction. They cost a lot more than $150 to build them properly.

Definitely so. There is an easy test you can do for speakers which works quite well - knock on them. If they sound hollow or resonate, they won't sound good.

Lesson of the day: SPEAKERS ARE WATERMELONS! ^-^

Hahah, it's funny but true. Speaker building is an engineering art, much like building a musical instrument. Just look at the engineering that goes into some modern high-end brands like Magico.

I'm a big fan of room correction as well, there are some great devices out there like the Accuphase DG-58 which makes it really painless but far from cheap, but well.. there are many other nice (and free) software solutions as well, which even includes phase correction...
 

Offline mixt

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 9
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #85 on: March 02, 2015, 07:09:47 pm »
I think i do hear the difference between 24 and 16bits, but i don't hear any difference between 41khz and 48khz or 96khz. But for my test i use crappy recording, crappy integrated Realtek ALC1200 and crappy speakers/headphones. But in my crappy equipment 24 bits work.

Generally speaking, you need a really high quality setup to hear fine differences in sound, as well as training to do so. In your case, it sounds like it's more of a problem specific to that ALC1200 chipset which the 24-bit source overcomes. I use an ALC898 on a Rampage IV motherboard as a "baseline" reference actually, because sometimes I want to remind myself of what a "normal" dac/preamp sounds like, so that I don't let placebo take over when it comes to making design improvements. A good goal for any person, even if they're not an "audiophile", is realism. Wouldn't it be awesome if sounds from your headphones were real enough to trigger a subconscious startling reaction? Imagine if you couldn't distinguish between real sounds and what you hear on headphones. Imagine playing a horror game like that on the Rift. ;) Well, we're nowhere near that point, sadly. However, I think that's a great goal to aspire to in the audio world...
 

Offline cbmuser

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 5
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #86 on: March 02, 2015, 07:35:57 pm »
Sony didn't invent the Walkman.

YES, they did.

Here's a catalog from Sony, year 1971: http://wegavision.pytalhost.com/Sony/1971/011.jpg

Look at the portable cassette player, TC-40. That's basically a Walkman. Sony just didn't have the idea to actually call it a Walkman before 1979 when they decided to market it as a portable listening device for music.

Quote
It was a German who invented it.

No, he didn't. If he had, he would have easily won the case in court which he didn't.

Quote
Sony's first Walkman prototype was nearly a one to one copy of the german design.

No, it wasn't. The TPS-L2 was basically one of their previous portable cassette players/dictation devices with the recording functionality removed. This is why the TPS-L2 still has a microphone built in which they marketed as a "attention" feature which would mute down the music and allow you to listen to your environment when your attention is needed.

Quote
Sony lost the lawsuit after nearly 30 years.

No, they didn't. They settled the case outside of court because they were tired fighting with that guy as he wasn't giving up. And they could only do it after Akio Morita passed away who had the original idea to market Sony's portable cassette devices as portable audio listen devices, later called Walkman and would have NEVER agreed to give in. He invented the Walkman the way people later used it.

Endlessly repeating that myth that Pawel invented the Walkman doesn't make it any more true. Sony had portable cassette players already in 1970/71 so anything that Pawel had was already preceeded by prior art.

Adrian
 

Offline cbmuser

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 5
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #87 on: March 02, 2015, 07:42:41 pm »
I think i do hear the difference between 24 and 16bits, but i don't hear any difference between 41khz and 48khz or 96khz.

You might want to watch this and understand why it is mathematically not possible to hear a difference between 16 and 24 bits sampling:

http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml

The only thing that is actually audible is a sampling frequency which is too low and therefore the low-pass filter at Nyquist frequency / 2 has to be very sharp which is generally hard to implement which is why your resulting audio signal will contain aliasing noise.

Adrian
 

Offline Corporate666

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2007
  • Country: us
  • Remember, you are unique, just like everybody else
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #88 on: March 02, 2015, 08:05:58 pm »
The "rounding" you are thinking of is quantization, but nothing in the design of the memory card has anything to do with quantization.  Selling this memory card for superior sound quality is like selling sheet music printed on canvas vs. regular paper, for superior playback by a violinist reading music.  It's actually much worse than that, because a violinist could miss a note - but a digital music player isn't missing 1's and 0's from a non-audiophile card.

Question: do you think 24 bit recording is pointless? Have you ever compared it directly with a 16 bit recording in a double blind test? Having said that, such a test is of somewhat limited use because 16 bit mandates different mastering techniques and parameters, but even so...

No, I think 24 bit recording is very valuable.  The range of music is around 80db (max - most of it is way, way less), but recording in 24 bit allows the audio engineer to be a lot less careful about setting their levels during the recording process.  It also gives them more headroom during the mastering/adjustment process.

For delivery to users, 24 bit recording is completely pointless.  The only difference is a lower noise floor, but considering 16-bit can already hit the threshold of pain when the noise floor is adjusted to anechoic chamber levels, lowering the noise floor (or increasing the top end) has no effect.

Yes, I've done plenty of double blind tests - there are threads over on Hydrogen Audio and Head-Fi where dozens of people have done DBT's and not a single person has ever been able to tell the difference with all other things being equal - no human can.  Any perceived differences come in the mastering process (which can make a HUGE difference).
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Offline DanielS

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 798
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #89 on: March 02, 2015, 08:59:14 pm »
People are stupid, someone once said there are two things in the Universe that have no limit;
Love
and
Stupidity.
Einstein said: "Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. But I am not sure about the universe."
 

Offline cdonges

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 8
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #90 on: March 02, 2015, 11:34:27 pm »

You might want to watch this and understand why it is mathematically not possible to hear a difference between 16 and 24 bits sampling:

http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml



Interesting video link. Thanks for that.
It's a shame he only made two videos. Hopefully he will make more someday.
 

Offline MCRodrigues

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 12
  • Country: pt
    • Miguel Rodrigues
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #91 on: March 02, 2015, 11:57:59 pm »
Hey Dave, that SD card is just the tip of the iceberg. Try this: http://www.audioquest.com/ethernet/diamond
Ethernet cable; 5500$ for 8 meters.
Want a power cable for 7000$? This is for you. http://www.audioquest.com/power-cables/wel-signature

That network cable that you're refering?
Here is some more audiophoolery that grind my gears:
http://www.geek.com/chips/this-ethernet-cable-costs-10000-1615326/

They claim: "You don’t want some crappy unbiased cable, because it’ll “slow down parts of the signal differently” and that’s “a big problem for very time-sensitive multi-octave audio.”

THIS IS A NETWORK CABLE!!! Can someone try to explain me how the hell audio quality, that comes from a digital stream, carried on UDP packets, and probably encoded by a lossy  MP3 algorithm, will affected by the cable??? :rant:

Let me guess: definitely not the lossy MP3 algorithm, or UDP protocol... Oh I know! It must have unicorn fart powder!! :palm:
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 12:02:39 am by MCRodrigues »
 

Offline Circlotron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2056
  • Country: au
Injecting a bit of fact into the argument.
« Reply #92 on: March 03, 2015, 02:02:15 am »
This SD card is gold and white!
End of story.
 

Offline coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5946
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #93 on: March 03, 2015, 03:09:16 am »
No, I think 24 bit recording is very valuable.  The range of music is around 80db (max - most of it is way, way less), but recording in 24 bit allows the audio engineer to be a lot less careful about setting their levels during the recording process.  It also gives them more headroom during the mastering/adjustment process.
Recording at 96k samples/second is also valuable, because it pushes the anti-alias filters so far from the audio band that many generations of manipulation still leave the top edge of the audio band clean. Its totally pointless for distribution to an end user, though. People seem to struggle with the the difference between working data and final results.
 

Offline radiomog

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 58
  • Country: mc
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #94 on: March 03, 2015, 06:01:51 am »
I just gotta say, that of all your videos Bruce Dave, this one had me laughing the most!  :-DD
My job is so secret, even I don't know what I'm doing!
 

Offline ggchab

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 260
  • Country: be
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #95 on: March 03, 2015, 09:02:43 am »
There is something similar going on in the classical music world, where famous performers and music critics are convinced that old famous string instruments sound better than new ones. (A Guarneri or Stradivari violin sells for millions of dollars at auctions).
This was thoroughly debunked in double blind experiments, but the myth lives on.
Partially true. In the case of piano, the iron frame changes the sound. The tunning was also different. ;)
 

Online Wytnucls

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2944
  • Country: be
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #96 on: March 03, 2015, 09:15:14 am »
Perhaps, but the piano is classed as a keyboard instrument. You're muddying the waters, pitch tuning doesn't influence the sound quality of the instrument.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 09:34:30 am by Wytnucls »
 

Offline ggchab

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 260
  • Country: be
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #97 on: March 03, 2015, 10:06:28 am »
Strings are producing sound. Not the keyboard  :)
 

Online Wytnucls

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2944
  • Country: be
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #98 on: March 03, 2015, 10:14:52 am »
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. The sound quality of a violin is in the workmanship of the sound box construction, not the strings.
There is no controversy about pianos, a modern Steinway is as good as an old one.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 10:19:09 am by Wytnucls »
 

Offline ggchab

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 260
  • Country: be
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #99 on: March 03, 2015, 10:34:15 am »
I don't want to prove anything. Piano is a very specific instrument where strings, as well as hammers and soundboard play their own role. Some old compositions may sound better on old pianos than new ones. But at the end, everything is subjective.
 

Online Wytnucls

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2944
  • Country: be
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #100 on: March 03, 2015, 11:13:50 am »
I never mentioned pianos, only strings instruments and violins in particular. Once again, there is no controversy about pianos. Old Stradivarius violins have a reputation for sound quality above modern instruments, which is not supported by double-blind testing, that's all. Leave pianos out of this, please. if you want to talk about pianos, start another thread.
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11206
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #101 on: March 03, 2015, 11:51:08 am »
"You don’t want some crappy unbiased cable, because it’ll “slow down parts of the signal differently” and that’s “a big problem for very time-sensitive multi-octave audio.”

THIS IS A NETWORK CABLE!!! Can someone try to explain me how the hell audio quality, that comes from a digital stream, carried on UDP packets, and probably encoded by a lossy  MP3 algorithm, will affected by the cable???

It's pretty obvious if you think about it: Each instrument is transmitted along a different wire in the cable. That causes timing problems in the music if those wires aren't carefully matched.
 

Offline ivan747

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2022
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #102 on: March 03, 2015, 12:40:28 pm »
It's 100% correct in the fact that someone who has just paid 5x the amount for a memory card WILL hear the difference because they have told themselves that it is better, much like anything!

There is something similar going on in the classical music world, where famous performers and music critics are convinced that old famous string instruments sound better than new ones. (A Guarneri or Stradivari violin sells for millions of dollars at auctions).
This was thoroughly debunked in double blind experiments, but the myth lives on.

You know what? I'd still pay a million dollars for a Stradivari if I had a million dollars, because it's a historical instrument made by a prodigy family. Unlike audiophools.
 

Offline AF6LJ

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2903
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #103 on: March 03, 2015, 02:51:14 pm »
This is a real head shaker;
This doesn't happen in the situations we are discussing.


"You don’t want some crappy unbiased cable, because it’ll “slow down parts of the signal differently” and that’s “a big problem for very time-sensitive multi-octave audio.”

THIS IS A NETWORK CABLE!!! Can someone try to explain me how the hell audio quality, that comes from a digital stream, carried on UDP packets, and probably encoded by a lossy  MP3 algorithm, will affected by the cable???

It's pretty obvious if you think about it: Each instrument is transmitted along a different wire in the cable. That causes timing problems in the music if those wires aren't carefully matched.
Sue AF6LJ
Test Equipment Addict, And Proud Of It.
 

Offline AF6LJ

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2903
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #104 on: March 03, 2015, 02:55:08 pm »
Perhaps, but the piano is classed as a keyboard instrument. You're muddying the waters, pitch tuning doesn't influence the sound quality of the instrument.

It is my understanding a Piano is a Percussion instrument, given that the strings are struck by a hammer. Now if you are John Cage(RIP) that can be carried to it's logical extreme. 
Sue AF6LJ
Test Equipment Addict, And Proud Of It.
 

Online AndyC_772

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3701
  • Country: gb
  • Professional design engineer
    • Cawte Engineering | Reliable Electronics
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #105 on: March 03, 2015, 03:10:22 pm »
They claim: "You don’t want some crappy unbiased cable, because it’ll “slow down parts of the signal differently” and that’s “a big problem for very time-sensitive multi-octave audio.”

THIS IS A NETWORK CABLE!!! Can someone try to explain me how the hell audio quality, that comes from a digital stream, carried on UDP packets, and probably encoded by a lossy  MP3 algorithm, will affected by the cable??? :rant:

Just for completeness... the cable plugs into an ethernet Physical Layer IC, or PHY for short. More often than not, the PHY connects to the host processor via an interface called RMII, which has only one clock. That clock is locally generated from a crystal oscillator.

So: the timing on the cable is even more irrelevant than you might expect, even if it were carrying audio as a series of (uncompressed) samples. Any mismatch between the source and destination is taken up by a FIFO in the PHY, which empties during the gaps between packets.

Never mind that the RMII clock probably isn't derived from the same source as the sample clock anyway...  :palm:

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11206
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #106 on: March 03, 2015, 03:48:13 pm »
Perhaps, but the piano is classed as a keyboard instrument. You're muddying the waters, pitch tuning doesn't influence the sound quality of the instrument.

It is my understanding a Piano is a Percussion instrument, given that the strings are struck by a hammer. Now if you are John Cage(RIP) that can be carried to it's logical extreme.

Times have changed.

I once corrected the Wikipedia page which had pianos in the "strings" section  :palm: (I moved it to "percussion").

"Strings" was obviously wrong but since then the orchestra has been given a whole new section called "keyboards".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestra#Instrumentation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_section

Yes, there's five sections now.
 

Online Wytnucls

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2944
  • Country: be
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #107 on: March 03, 2015, 06:15:53 pm »
It's 100% correct in the fact that someone who has just paid 5x the amount for a memory card WILL hear the difference because they have told themselves that it is better, much like anything!

There is something similar going on in the classical music world, where famous performers and music critics are convinced that old famous string instruments sound better than new ones. (A Guarneri or Stradivari violin sells for millions of dollars at auctions).
This was thoroughly debunked in double blind experiments, but the myth lives on.

You know what? I'd still pay a million dollars for a Stradivari if I had a million dollars, because it's a historical instrument made by a prodigy family. Unlike audiophools.
And that would be a sound investment (no pun intended). Their inflated value comes from the false aura around a limited number of instruments, not so much their historical value. Some of the Stradivari violins were actually shoddily made, depending on the period, and modern luthiers, like Peter-Stefan Greiner, can make superior instruments, using traditional methods.
 

Offline rsjsouza

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4075
  • Country: us
  • Eternally curious
    • Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #108 on: March 03, 2015, 08:07:53 pm »
Good primers to understand digital/analog with respect to audio:
http://xiph.org/video/vid1.shtml
http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml

These videos are so good they hurt! :)
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline AF6LJ

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2903
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #109 on: March 03, 2015, 08:35:20 pm »
Perhaps, but the piano is classed as a keyboard instrument. You're muddying the waters, pitch tuning doesn't influence the sound quality of the instrument.

It is my understanding a Piano is a Percussion instrument, given that the strings are struck by a hammer. Now if you are John Cage(RIP) that can be carried to it's logical extreme.

Times have changed.

I once corrected the Wikipedia page which had pianos in the "strings" section  :palm: (I moved it to "percussion").

"Strings" was obviously wrong but since then the orchestra has been given a whole new section called "keyboards".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestra#Instrumentation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_section

Yes, there's five sections now.
Oh Well, times are a changin I suppose....
Does this mean I have to give up my HP-412 for a Fluke DMM? ;)

The hole digital VS analogue argument has spread across all fields of interest not just audio, video amateur radio and even the crappy voice quality of cellphones are not without those who find the whole thing one big step backwards.

As for me, it doesn't really matter much, I quit my interest in HiFi when CDs came out all it took was the garbage that was generated every time a drum solo began.
Now music is just background filler.
I have hardware in my computer that will sample up to 192KHZ and the 96KHZ stuff does sound better.

Some day we will have digital sound that is HiFi without all the stupidity.
 That day doesn't appear to be very far off.
Sue AF6LJ
Test Equipment Addict, And Proud Of It.
 

Offline EE-digger

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 159
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #110 on: March 04, 2015, 03:37:54 am »
What's the BER of a $5 SDHC card?  About 10^-15 perhaps (uncorrected).
What's the BER of this card?  I'm guessing around 10^-15 or so (uncorrected).

So, bit error rate is essentially zero for most intents and purposes.  Let's move on...

Someone mentioned that the emissions graph says that it is radiated.  Ok, so if this is true then we've got some possible scenarios where the $$ card produces audio with a higher noise free dynamic range.

scenario #1 - the SDHC card is mounted direcly above the ADC section - don't laugh - if the product is tiny, there can be a lot of compromises in placement of parts, where marketing wants certain features, etc. - Maybe the ADC isn't above the SDHC card, or under it, but perhaps the emissions are enough to alter the ADC noise AND/OR produce mixing products.  Maybe that 1,2,5 or so MHz emission is mixed down INSIDE the ADC and it is now planted in your band of interest and untouchable by your filtering.  Maybe a remnant of the emissions remains on the supply rails where, if synchronous, can still take serious filtering to mostly remove.

scenario #2 - if the read clocking of the SDHC ever becomes synchronous with the ADC conversion clock, you wreak havoc on the converter noise - much worse than in #1 - you could start getting downconverted clock noise sweeping in and out of synch with the audio for horrendous effects.  Maybe this could happen as a function of storage location, maybe as a function of wear leveling activity, etc.

While I haven't experienced either of the above with audio, I was extrapolating from problems I've had to solve in the past in telecom measurement equipment.  It's easy to turn your sampled data system into a spectum analyzer if you're not careful. 

So, I'd like to wait and see some noise and distortion numbers between the cards and with the equipment clearly identified.  Maybe when you crank the volume all the way up, it is still quiet with this card  :-+

Not a huge Sony fan but always had a place in my heart for Trinitron monitors (pro video and PC)

Den
 

Offline Richard Crowley

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4310
  • Country: us
  • KE7GKP
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #111 on: March 04, 2015, 03:53:57 am »
Not a huge Sony fan but always had a place in my heart for Trinitron monitors (pro video and PC)

During the early days of commercial color TV production, Trinitron monitors (Sony and other brands) were unfavorable for camera monitors because the aperture grille created a picture that was artificially too "crisp". It was harder to judge whether the camera was in critical focus or not because the Trinitron made it look better than it actually was. Most broadcast TV cameras used monochrome CRTs for viewfinders to enable the camera operator to judge focus properly.

In modern (digital) times, we use software to artifically enhance the edges of things in the frame. "Peaking" is added to the viewfinder signal in a color of the operator's choice to much more easily see when the camera is in focus (the high-frequency from the transition is at maximum amplitude.)

Here is an example of a viewfinder image with artificial red peaking edges added...
 

Offline Seaton

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 2
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #112 on: March 04, 2015, 12:28:57 pm »
Good primers to understand digital/analog with respect to audio:
http://xiph.org/video/vid1.shtml
http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml

These videos are so good they hurt! :)

Totally agree. But would an audiophool take any notice, even if they had the ability to understand them. It would be like trying to convert a Jihadist to be an Atheist.
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11206
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #113 on: March 04, 2015, 12:46:29 pm »
Totally agree. But would an audiophool take any notice, even if they had the ability to understand them. It would be like trying to convert a Jihadist to be an Atheist.

Why would you need to learn math when you can hear the difference?
 

Offline EvilGeniusSkis

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 123
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
« Reply #114 on: March 08, 2015, 01:32:21 am »
Is somebody's calendar off? It's not April fools day yet. Ya got 1 month t go.
in aus it is march fool's day not april.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf