Author Topic: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results  (Read 45946 times)

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Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #75 on: May 17, 2015, 11:17:09 am »
Problem is the panels are framed in aluminium, which has scrap value as metal. As well the wire is copper so also has value. If somebody can get 50c US for stealing something off a wall, or off a rooftop, they will do it. Cardboard is worth money, and is something that people have been killed over, just to get 2kg of it.

Your panel would have to be a glass plate with amorphous film on the back, laminated with a plastic membrane on the rear, with a frame made from GRP composite. The wire would have to be copper coated steel, with fixed connectors. Electronics inside would have to use minimal copper on the board, and the battery would have to be a 12V 7Ah SLA battery ( very common here and affordable to people) to be relatively theft proof. Cost would have to be under $30, to make it affordable to people yet worth the manufacturing cost.

As I am currently in the middle of replacing manhole covers, stolen because the cast iron is worth something as scrap metal ( and the thieves get a very low price because the unscrupulous yard owners know they are stolen but still take them at a big profit), and am using GRP composite covers and frames, so as to have minimal scrap value. The thieves might get $3 for the one they stole, but a replacement cast iron is $300, excluding the fitting costs, and the GRP one was cheaper at $200, including courier charges from half way across the country. Thus I am doing the labour work, as there is no budget for this, and insurance is not worth claiming as the excess is $400, and the loss of the no claim is worth more. Thus me out with a jackhammer, chisel and pickaxe, and mixing some tilefix and bonding liquid to improve the adhesion and smooth off the process.
 

Offline gildasd

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #76 on: May 17, 2015, 11:47:04 am »
Problem is the panels are framed in aluminium, which has scrap value as metal. As well the wire is copper so also has value. If somebody can get 50c US for stealing something off a wall, or off a rooftop, they will do it. Cardboard is worth money, and is something that people have been killed over, just to get 2kg of it.

Your panel would have to be a glass plate with amorphous film on the back, laminated with a plastic membrane on the rear, with a frame made from GRP composite. The wire would have to be copper coated steel, with fixed connectors. Electronics inside would have to use minimal copper on the board, and the battery would have to be a 12V 7Ah SLA battery ( very common here and affordable to people) to be relatively theft proof. Cost would have to be under $30, to make it affordable to people yet worth the manufacturing cost.

As I am currently in the middle of replacing manhole covers, stolen because the cast iron is worth something as scrap metal ( and the thieves get a very low price because the unscrupulous yard owners know they are stolen but still take them at a big profit), and am using GRP composite covers and frames, so as to have minimal scrap value. The thieves might get $3 for the one they stole, but a replacement cast iron is $300, excluding the fitting costs, and the GRP one was cheaper at $200, including courier charges from half way across the country. Thus I am doing the labour work, as there is no budget for this, and insurance is not worth claiming as the excess is $400, and the loss of the no claim is worth more. Thus me out with a jackhammer, chisel and pickaxe, and mixing some tilefix and bonding liquid to improve the adhesion and smooth off the process.
You'll be happy to know that this is/was a big problem here too.
It was not until yard owners where threatened of having the whole yard confiscated, every speck of metal expertises and being prosecuted as the actual thieves did this slow down. But it still happens, because the metal gets loaded into trucks and taken East. But this entails lower profits and more organisation, limiting the miscreant pool.
It's not until you get a 1 million rand fine per obviously stolen item, that the yards are going to change...

I had the stealing everything issue when working on a "3 class school unit" in a container for Guinea-Bissau...
Every part had to be designed to only fit with the parts in the container and have no resale value.
In the end (before we got cancelled), the solution I found was glass fibre structure using "click one way", a bit like those annoying plastic toys that you can't open without breaking. But the actual container and the roofing still had to be standard...
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Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #77 on: May 17, 2015, 12:26:53 pm »
That is actually in law, but between the lackluster performance of the various enforcement, sentencing and correctional services branches, and the lack of political will ( and infighting as well) nothing is done about it. If they prosecuted a few owners, and stripped them of everything, including the clothing on their backs, as proceeds of crime, and dropped them into jail nothing will happen. Cf  noted examples et al.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #78 on: May 17, 2015, 12:31:14 pm »
So, a good idea would be a small rootop PV, around 0.5m² to charge a small battery to sun a single 12watt CFD for 6 hours.
I'm sure there's at least half a dozen TED talks on this very subject.
(Either PV or a small hand-crank...)
Problem is that it's talk.
In that case the problem isn't technology, it's something else (eg. thieves).
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #79 on: May 18, 2015, 03:04:15 pm »
In that case the problem isn't technology, it's something else (eg. thieves).
A technology developed without considering the environment (in a large sense) is worthless.
If you can't commercialize a product because of some external influence, it's worthless.

So you HAVE TO consider such requirements, sot ignore them. People who ignore them are not sucessful.
 

Offline adream

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #80 on: May 18, 2015, 05:09:36 pm »
Hi Dave and EEV bods

Skeptics Guide to the Universe, a great podcast, talks about this and Daves blog post

well worth a listen

http://www.theskepticsguide.org/

Keep up the great work Dave and David

:-)
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #81 on: May 19, 2015, 04:59:45 pm »
Direct link...

http://www.theskepticsguide.org/podcast/sgu/514

I was listening to it today, but got pipped to the post.........
 

Offline Stebanoid

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #82 on: August 18, 2015, 05:53:03 am »
"Technology of the future" from the BBC Science Hour.
At 11:05 here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02wt5k2
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #83 on: August 21, 2015, 03:22:42 am »
"Technology of the future" from the BBC Science Hour.
At 11:05 here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02wt5k2

Putting existing solar panels in the most inefficient place possible is technology of the future?  :palm:
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #84 on: August 21, 2015, 04:01:17 am »
Want me to ask them if they'd like to go on the Amp Hour? 
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #85 on: August 21, 2015, 04:07:35 am »
Want me to ask them if they'd like to go on the Amp Hour?

Not interested in having them on.
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #86 on: August 21, 2015, 04:26:16 am »
Want me to ask them if they'd like to go on the Amp Hour?

Not interested in having them on.
That was a joke. I just can't believe the traction they get with the media and general public. They are literally local heroes. I was fuming the other day after getting trapped in the meeting from hell. I think they're supposed be speaking at some startup rah rah deal this weekend here.

I will acknowledge they have done one thing right: the silicon is right side up. Every other aspect of it is totally, utterly wrong.

And they are beloved for it.  :palm:
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #87 on: August 21, 2015, 04:39:22 am »
That was a joke.

Oops, must retune sarcasm radar.

Quote
I just can't believe the traction they get with the media and general public. They are literally local heroes.

People want to believe.
 

Offline gildasd

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #88 on: August 21, 2015, 07:20:24 am »
That was a joke.
Oops, must retune sarcasm radar.
Quote
I just can't believe the traction they get with the media and general public. They are literally local heroes.
People want to believe.
Had as discussion with a cousin over this...
She was starting being defensive and was beginning on the "you don't like innovation and green technology" line...
So I got out my calculator (I take on holidays, I'm a nerd b#tch), and I went on the "I like green but I also like maths":
And did a quick calculation proving that covering the parking spaces of her local supermarket with well orientated solar would provide loadsa km's worth of Solaroadsways equivalent EVEN if it was the much better Dutch system.
More green tech for your green means faster reduction in emissions. SIMPLE.
No forgetting the 1000's of litres of fuel not burnt to cool down cars that have been sitting in the sun.
And then I started with the invisible infrastructure costs: ripping off existing roads, building new roads, all the cabling and then maintaining the glass surface is staggering.
"Oh, that's why we did maths in school"...

France recently passed a law that obliges new buildings in towns (not houses) to have either solar panel or planted surface (grass) on their roofs.
Right now, this is the first step and it concerns not a lot of structures, but it will get tougher over the years and all buildings (new and old) will have this obligation 10 to 15 years from now.
This IS a great ecological advance but does not garner 1% of the press that the solardeadendroad gets.
And it pisses me off.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #89 on: August 21, 2015, 10:44:01 am »
I can think of one very useful application for a solar path: To provide power in scenic locations, such as parks, that may be off the grid, and to do so with minimal visual impact on the surroundings.
Why do they need power?

While it may be 4x the cost per watt-hour compared to conventional solar installations, I can't think of a less unsightly way to get local power.  I'm thinking of locations like the bottom of the Grand Canyon, or island parks.
a) Paving the grand canyon with solar panels isn't unsightly?

b) Why is putting them flat better than having half the area of panels but installing them at a 45 degree angle.
 

Online coppice

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #90 on: August 21, 2015, 10:57:35 am »
b) Why is putting them flat better than having half the area of panels but installing them at a 45 degree angle.
For some of us laying the panels flat is far more effective than at 45 degrees, and we don't use vast amounts of energy to avoid freezing to death in winter.  :) However, even in the tropics solar roadways are a wacky idea.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #91 on: August 21, 2015, 11:24:24 am »
b) Why is putting them flat better than having half the area of panels but installing them at a 45 degree angle.
For some of us laying the panels flat is far more effective than at 45 degrees
My bad. I guess I should have been more precise. I keep forgetting we're engineers here.

The grand canyon is at 36 degrees latitude. The correct angle in the Grand Canyon would be (90-36) = 54 degrees.

 

Offline Delta

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2015, 12:09:41 am »

For some of us laying the panels flat is far more effective than at 45 degrees, and we don't use vast amounts of energy to avoid freezing to death in winter.  :)

You just use even more in the summer trying to keep cool! 😀

If I'm ever too hot in the "summer", I can just go outside! 😕
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #93 on: October 24, 2015, 09:57:44 pm »
A viewer sent me these photos of the pathway being repaired.
The glass couldn't handle the cold temps it seems as we have seen before, so they are applying a new coating to the whole thing:
http://www.bespaarenergiescan.nl/index.php/nieuwsberichten/2246-nieuwe-coating-voor-zonnefietspad-solaroad


« Last Edit: October 24, 2015, 10:01:29 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline crispy_tofu

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #94 on: October 25, 2015, 03:03:13 am »
I wonder how much that would cost...  :popcorn:
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #95 on: October 25, 2015, 07:38:56 am »
Wonder just how badly the panel efficiency has degraded from new, and how much worse it is compared to a regular roof mounted panel after the same length of time. Those edges look very badly clouded, and as pretty much every engineer knows a solar panel is only as good as the weakest cell.
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #96 on: October 27, 2015, 06:33:07 pm »
It has not even been cold yet. It says it cannot handle the transitions.
 

Offline gildasd

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #97 on: October 29, 2015, 07:41:38 am »
And then add the splitting power of water vapour...
I can see certain types of laminated glass holding up to this, but it's the kind used for bank windows: very expensive.
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Offline NANDBlog

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #98 on: October 29, 2015, 09:40:03 am »
It has not even been cold yet. It says it cannot handle the transitions.
They should just put electric heating into it, so it doesnt break.
Also if they would put street lights above it, it could generate power even at night.
Sorry, I've run out stupid things to say.
 

Offline gildasd

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Re: EEVblog #743 – Solar Roadways Test Results
« Reply #99 on: October 29, 2015, 11:38:14 am »
It has not even been cold yet. It says it cannot handle the transitions.
They should just put electric heating into it, so it doesn't break.
Also if they would put street lights above it, it could generate power even at night.
Sorry, I've run out stupid things to say.
And tarmac for better grip.
I'm electronically illiterate
 


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