Author Topic: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters  (Read 43991 times)

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Offline Chasm

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2010, 06:02:52 pm »
Hi,

I thought I and others have been keeping it fairly simple.
The message is pretty clear, if you measure the mains you should get a properly designed name brand meter with a suitable CAT rating. At the very minimum a properly designed meter that doesn't have other dangers like poor quality probe insulation, exposed live metal screws or capacitor test sockets or whatever.

I think that this is the thing to keep in mind both in this discussion and when buying a multimeter - or any other tool.

You may buy whatever multimeter you wish as long as it does meet the appropriate safety standards. Since we are talking about multimeter's this includes also the probes, if this would be about chainsaws we would be also talking about cut resistant trousers, steel caped boots and helmets with visors...

Really, if there should be a 1$ meter out there that actually meets the CATII standard that would be great, and there would be no obvious reason not to use it - but there is not such a meter.
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2010, 10:58:09 pm »
Really, if there should be a 1$ meter out there that actually meets the CATII standard that would be great, and there would be no obvious reason not to use it - but there is not such a meter.


I will play as Game, the lawyer of the Devil , and hit me as hard you can ..

1) Our great  Chinese or Asian or what ever made multimeters are totally safe .

2) They comply with the named rating, that its model has .

3) They come with users manual , and all users should read it,
so to properly and safely,  used this instrument.
(Load a weapon and shoot your self , the call it as bad weapon.)

4) Manufacturing defects , our multimeters are tested , and they do not suffer from any defects,
we was accused that our banana plugs are flimsy made , you had forget to show the back plate , that there is special support mechanism , so to keep those parts in place and unmovable .
( how in earth one unmovable part , can cause stress to the master PCB , when everything are bolted on the meter and  properly supported by the cover ? )

5) The meters with three banana plugs comes fused with 200 - 300mA Fuses ,  even if the meter used  by mistake  at the Ohms mode to measure Mains , the Fuse will engage , and there is no harm done.

6) The un-fused  10A or 20A line , serves an special purpose , the meter works in line measuring Amperes , so there is no issue of  explosion , the only issue  could be if the current will remain in the tolerance of the multimeter.
If not, the multimeter will get damaged , and only the multimeter.

7) The Germans and Europeans , zapped our meters with 2000-3000 Volts ,
so to deliberately sabotage our products , with excuses about VDE or other regulations .
Our products are directed for home use ,  we do not know any home to use 2000V as mains .  

8 ) We will manufacture,  the special model that costs as 1$ , as you requested .  ;D      
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 11:15:49 pm by Kiriakos-GR »
 

Offline armandas

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2010, 11:59:27 pm »
Really, if there should be a 1$ meter out there that actually meets the CATII standard that would be great, and there would be no obvious reason not to use it - but there is not such a meter.


I will play as Game, the lawyer of the Devil , and hit me as hard you can ..

1) Our great  Chinese or Asian or what ever made multimeters are totally safe .

2) They comply with the named rating, that its model has .

3) They come with users manual , and all users should read it,
so to properly and safely,  used this instrument.
(Load a weapon and shoot your self , the call it as bad weapon.)

4) Manufacturing defects , our multimeters are tested , and they do not suffer from any defects,
we was accused that our banana plugs are flimsy made , you had forget to show the back plate , that there is special support mechanism , so to keep those parts in place and unmovable .
( how in earth one unmovable part , can cause stress to the master PCB , when everything are bolted on the meter and  properly supported by the cover ? )

5) The meters with three banana plugs comes fused with 200 - 300mA Fuses ,  even if the meter used  by mistake  at the Ohms mode to measure Mains , the Fuse will engage , and there is no harm done.

6) The un-fused  10A or 20A line , serves an special purpose , the meter works in line measuring Amperes , so there is no issue of  explosion , the only issue  could be if the current will remain in the tolerance of the multimeter.
If not, the multimeter will get damaged , and only the multimeter.

7) The Germans and Europeans , zapped our meters with 2000-3000 Volts ,
so to deliberately sabotage our products , with excuses about VDE or other regulations .
Our products are directed for home use ,  we do not know any home to use 2000V as mains .   

8 ) We will manufacture,  the special model that costs as 1$ , as you requested .  ;D     


Kiriakos, now you're just being stubborn and ridiculous. What safety? What compliance? What manuals?

If you like cheap meters, that's fine with me. You can even invest in Chinese companies making them - I don't care. Just do everyone a favour and stop trolling.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2010, 01:16:22 am »
Kiriakos, now you're just being stubborn and ridiculous. What safety? What compliance? What manuals?

If you like cheap meters, that's fine with me. You can even invest in Chinese companies making them - I don't care. Just do everyone a favour and stop trolling.

I agree, this is just getting silly.
If it's Kiriakos's attempt at humor then the English translation is just not working.
These sorts of jokes are all well and good until some newbie reads it and takes it as gospel.

Dave.
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2010, 04:49:13 am »
When I said Hit me , I was ready to get the blow and I am still are .

And , my only intention are to Help Dave ,  by my way .
So to avoid, or better  stay protected , of using points of judgment ,  
that could make him to sound extreme , or overprotective , or Biased in the next video.

If he feels , that its not necessary , I have no reason to Play  the lawyer of the Devil.

Our time , as professionals are valuable , free games, are tasks for people who does not need to work.

Now, I think that I am crystal clear , to all .
Right now, Dave holds the ball , and nobody else.
If he does not needs this "test - game " , its ok with me.  

Regards Kiriakos..

  






« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 05:07:30 am by Kiriakos-GR »
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2010, 04:59:32 am »
What safety? What compliance? What manuals?

Safety : All the damn electrical and electronic devices , from an small radio up to a large sound system, gets protected  with the same fuses and fuse holders ...

User manuals : every device have one , cheap or expensive ..

compliance :
The only factor that needs to be tested .

And I will add
" cables-probes" : but those are exchangeable , and its up to the final user,
if he requires better ones , or if they go bad , to replace them with equal or better ones.  

" Display Readability "

"Quality of the selector"

" anti slip pads" 

Lets hope that the translation does not kills my points, this time ..    :)

« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 05:13:40 am by Kiriakos-GR »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2010, 06:53:43 am »
Safety : All the damn electrical and electronic devices , from an small radio up to a large sound system, gets protected  with the same fuses and fuse holders ...

No they are not, you are wrong. All types of equipment have (sometimes vastly) differing technical requirements, and varying safety standards they must/should meet etc.

Quote
User manuals : every device have one , cheap or expensive ..

And the cheap meters have a scrap of paper which is worthless. Just as worthless as the fake CAT ratings stamped on the front.

Quote

compliance :
The only factor that needs to be tested .

And the really cheap meters are NOT compliance tested, the compliance marks on them are FAKE!

Quote
And I will add
" cables-probes" : but those are exchangeable , and its up to the final user,
if he requires better ones , or if they go bad , to replace them with equal or better ones.  

Yes, but what's your point?
If you buy a $10 meter and get shit probes, you aren't going to go out and buy expensive $50 probes to get better safety.

Quote
Lets hope that the translation does not kills my points, this time ..    :)

No offense Kiriakos, but your English translations are not satisfactorily understandable in order to contribute to the debate, you are just confusing everyone!

Dave.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2010, 06:56:24 am »
there is something to be said for products that meet their specs only to pass testing and others that are made to be truly usable. I have had many of the cheap meters and they all failed in a short time. it could be that they would tell me that a circuit has 10 volts when it really has 100 because it is an unreliable instrument.

The chinese will and do put fake specs on products, didn't you here about the "C E" marking ? how many chinese manufacturers came up with a very similar making to put on their products, so similar that "CE" because confused with "C E" the same font and style was used unless you knew the difference you could not tell. the difference was that "C E" is the european compliance symbol and "CE" stands for (or so they say) china export, now wht would you put a china export symbol in the place of a certification symbol and make them almost identical but not enopugh for it to be illegal ? you know how many factories in China are called "england" "canada" etc ? so that the manufacturer can put on their products "made in england", I take any chinese manufacturer as a dihonest liar as default unless proven other wise, it is a real pity that european governments don't get their asses in gear and help manufacturing in europe thrive again !

i have a chinese made fan heater, I consider it lethal and will not let anyone but me use it. clearly it was made to justr pass import inspection assuming it got one. I expect it to fail horribly any day, but the chinese manufacturer does not care that his product may burn somebodies house down and kill their family
 

Offline Simon

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2010, 07:00:35 am »
Safety : All the damn electrical and electronic devices , from an small radio up to a large sound system, gets protected  with the same fuses and fuse holders ...

No they are not, you are wrong. All types of equipment have (sometimes vastly) differing technical requirements, and varying safety standards they must/should meet etc.

Quote
User manuals : every device have one , cheap or expensive ..

And the cheap meters have a scrap of paper which is worthless. Just as worthless as the fake CAT ratings stamped on the front.

Quote

compliance :
The only factor that needs to be tested .

And the really cheap meters are NOT compliance tested, the compliance marks on them are FAKE!

Quote
And I will add
" cables-probes" : but those are exchangeable , and its up to the final user,
if he requires better ones , or if they go bad , to replace them with equal or better ones.  

Yes, but what's your point?
If you buy a $10 meter and get shit probes, you aren't going to go out and buy expensive $50 probes to get better safety.

Quote
Lets hope that the translation does not kills my points, this time ..    :)

No offense Kiriakos, but your English translations are not satisfactorily understandable in order to contribute to the debate, you are just confusing everyone!

Dave.

Dave one concession you can make on Kiriakos: I've lived in Italy for 14 years and have seen the total direagard for safety and need to look after yourself, greece is not that much different but he needs to understand that in the rest of the world being killed by faulty equipment is not just one of those things like in the  mediteranian part of the world. In England drivers drive will little regard for others safety, in the mediteranian they drive with little regard for even their own life (and think god will look after them)
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2010, 08:14:54 am »

No offense Kiriakos, but your English translations are not satisfactorily understandable in order to contribute to the debate, you are just confusing everyone!

Dave.

I had to agree with you , at list thats how it looks,
I just liked to help , by my own ways of thinking.

Never had any intention to cause stress to any one.
So I will just do some steps back , and I will be more cautious in the future.

I wish you success , with your next Video - presentation ,
the subject as "multimeters " its a very sensitive one .
And you do know that all ready , from the emails that you got from the pissed ones..  :D

Regards Kiriakos

   
 

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2010, 10:19:33 am »
And how long should the humble multimeter be subject to such criticism? Rightfully till the end of the world.
@Simon: It is the evil world of outsourcing. Fluke, Agilent, Extech and probably all big manufacturers have manufacturing plants in China. Can you accept Agilent having the top of the line hand held multimeter outsourced to Malaysia. The results are obvious. And do not be confused by 'Made in Hong Kong' or 'Made in Taiwan' or 'Made in R.O.C.': they are all from the Chinese herd. We have got trampled over to such an extent that whenever I pull the remote display from the Fluke 233, people would exclaim 'look what the Chinese have managed!'
Actually, the Chinese people really manage to foster out of the box ideas and never seen before products. If we have got any Chinese member among us, be proud because the country is fast forwarding with innovations. They board ten times as many engineers as Europeans for the same emolument. But in an attempt to make it ten times more affordable, they make products look like steel, act like glass.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2010, 11:15:15 am »
I wish you success , with your next Video - presentation ,
the subject as "multimeters " its a very sensitive one .
And you do know that all ready , from the emails that you got from the pissed ones..  :D

On the contrary, the great thing about having my own blog is that the only thing that matters is my own opinion! :P

Dave.
 

Offline saturation

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2010, 05:36:27 pm »
The German consumer product safety links I posted earlier, i.e. the links with the videos of DMM on fire, state that the target market of problem meters are consumers, at least in Germany.

In the USA, the most incompetent meters, the one's IMHO are likely to hurt the user at CAT II ratings, are the meters you find in hardware stores, and automotive parts stores, to be used by DIY types who are barely electronics literate.  I went looking for any safety data on DMM and consumers in the USA, and can find none.

However, the EU found enough fault in some cheap DMM to have them pulled from the EU market.

http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/dyna/rapex/rapex_archives_en.cfm

Search term as " multimeter."



I agree with Dave and Kyriakos - you have to draw the line somewhere.

A student can drink a few less beers or smoke less to save for a slightly better meter
A professional in a country like Greece or Poland (I lived there for 14 years) can save some money to get the best they can afford
You can buy something used to save a few dollars
Hacking a cheap meter would be a waste of time ;)


I seriously doubt that consumers are a large group buying multimeters. Unless you have unlimited funds, most of us who need them will be trying to save money on what we buy but the equally important lesson in all of this is not to sacrifice safety for savings. We can't afford that.
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline saturation

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #63 on: April 19, 2010, 06:06:25 pm »
Alas, per the EU rules, a class of CE markings offers no assurance of compliance with any standards since it can be legitimately self posted by the manufacturer.  The Chinese marking is whole other issue, also briefly discussed here:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_mark







there is something to be said for products that meet their specs only to pass testing and others that are made to be truly usable. I have had many of the cheap meters and they all failed in a short time. it could be that they would tell me that a circuit has 10 volts when it really has 100 because it is an unreliable instrument.

The chinese will and do put fake specs on products, didn't you here about the "C E" marking ? how many chinese manufacturers came up with a very similar making to put on their products, so similar that "CE" because confused with "C E" the same font and style was used unless you knew the difference you could not tell. the difference was that "C E" is the european compliance symbol and "CE" stands for (or so they say) china export, now wht would you put a china export symbol in the place of a certification symbol and make them almost identical but not enopugh for it to be illegal ? you know how many factories in China are called "england" "canada" etc ? so that the manufacturer can put on their products "made in england", I take any chinese manufacturer as a dihonest liar as default unless proven other wise, it is a real pity that european governments don't get their asses in gear and help manufacturing in europe thrive again !

i have a chinese made fan heater, I consider it lethal and will not let anyone but me use it. clearly it was made to justr pass import inspection assuming it got one. I expect it to fail horribly any day, but the chinese manufacturer does not care that his product may burn somebodies house down and kill their family
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline Simon

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #64 on: April 19, 2010, 08:47:06 pm »
And how long should the humble multimeter be subject to such criticism? Rightfully till the end of the world.
@Simon: It is the evil world of outsourcing. Fluke, Agilent, Extech and probably all big manufacturers have manufacturing plants in China. Can you accept Agilent having the top of the line hand held multimeter outsourced to Malaysia. The results are obvious. And do not be confused by 'Made in Hong Kong' or 'Made in Taiwan' or 'Made in R.O.C.': they are all from the Chinese herd. We have got trampled over to such an extent that whenever I pull the remote display from the Fluke 233, people would exclaim 'look what the Chinese have managed!'
Actually, the Chinese people really manage to foster out of the box ideas and never seen before products. If we have got any Chinese member among us, be proud because the country is fast forwarding with innovations. They board ten times as many engineers as Europeans for the same emolument. But in an attempt to make it ten times more affordable, they make products look like steel, act like glass.

I'm not really concerned about where a product is made but it's quality (something that as a quality inspector i have to look at every day). You get good quality even from china if you pay the money, it is a combination of any company wanting to make as much money as possible and guy junk from china, you can go to a chinese manufacturer and ask for a good quality product, pay a good price and get a good product. But equally you can ask for a cheap item and you will get a cheap item but bad quality. I hate it when manufacturers and retailers chant about how they have the cheapest but best quality product because this is called BULLSHIT ! what I would hope is that crap qual;ity is not made and not accepted by any retailer/consumer but again it is about money. people as so short sighted. I think that today it is safe to say that as far as manufacturing goes 90% of products are made as throw away items, that £5 multimeter (versus a £30+), those £10 shoes (versus £35), I bought those £10 shoes and they lastest a matter of months, I not have apair of £35 shoes and they are still looking goo months later and my feet don't sweat in them because they are not made of plastic. People are so stupid ignorant and gullible, it is true that to some extent when it comes to brand names you pay a little more for the sake of the name. But it is also true that you get pretty much what you pay for unless you buy from ripoff retailers with a big name (like B&Q to name one). In today's day and age where there is a lot of cheap crap around companies cannot afford to charge more than something is worth. a little bit of common sense will get you quality at a reasonable price without getting burnt by either an overpriced unit or a heap of garbidge.

When I lived in Italy i worked for a man importing clothing from China/india, you know some of the shirts we got as samples had fabric so thin they came already ripped ?!
 

Offline Zad

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #65 on: April 19, 2010, 09:12:46 pm »
I just had a quick look around Ebay to see what was what. One of the first things I came across was (brace yourselves!) "Fluk" multimeters! I LOLed.

 ;D

Offline Simon

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #66 on: April 19, 2010, 09:22:17 pm »
yes I've spotted those to but I'm not that stupid
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #67 on: April 20, 2010, 12:02:22 am »
Its all about Geography ..  

So I will say few words for my dot on the map.

Greece was always the path between Asia and Europe.
The Asian products are dominant in the Greek market, at the last 25 years.
They was called "economic solution" , and they still are.
The European electronic products , was the "good ones"  after the Japanese ones.
Famous American  products ,  just the simple hand tools , great quality long lasting ones.

Fluke has almost zero market share in Greece, even if it has three major representatives - distributors.  
  
The Greek technicians works mostly , with the most high priced Taiwanese DMMs ,
the ones that last in time , there is two three brands , that does reliable DMM.

I got the Fluke 87-5 , because it is True RMS, and looks solid ,
but the most important reason that I got it, was that I found it softly used,
in the half of the price, and a bit even less.

So its all about pricing , and marketing , and Geography .

Because of  " my " Fluke, I started exploring the company it self , and their practices.
Oh my , they have the most aggressive policy about sales ... they offer even gifts at their own salesman, Fluke bonus points system....  If this salesman sold a meter of 400$  he gets 400 points .
So in translation , they aggressively push the Fluke name , and top up their bonus basket.

Never seen another company who does multimeters to act that way.

And I am saying all this , because right now I am very pissed , with this tactics,
and I have all the rights to do so, as an customer and consumer.

But more than everything I am pissed because they had make some nice Velcro straps for the cables,
and they do not shell them  Internationally ..   Just 48 States ..

Ok then, keep your DMMs for your 48 States ..  

Totally stupid marketing, Instead of be friendly and wide open .
They do a great job , about protecting their own interests , But I have also to protect my health from such confusing and irritating tactics , and continue to do my shopping , in the Taiwanese liberal market.  
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 12:12:54 am by Kiriakos-GR »
 

Offline Simon

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #68 on: April 20, 2010, 06:38:19 am »
Kiriakos if your "pissed" it means you are drunk. I think you mean "pissed off" which means angry or anoyed about something  ;D
 

Offline saturation

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #69 on: April 20, 2010, 10:57:43 am »
More exploding MM:

The caption writes of problems with input protection:




CAT IV accident, caught on security cam.  Professionals should wear PPE for CAT III and above:







Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #70 on: April 20, 2010, 01:14:03 pm »
Kiriakos if your "pissed" it means you are drunk. I think you mean "pissed off" which means angry or anoyed about something  ;D


If so, I choose the second ...  ;D  

I am an motorcycles driver all my life , and do not own a car, so drinking is out of the question.  ;)


edit: Found the damn straps , the same as the Fluke ones, with out the badge..
15cm Cable Velcro Straps   Got 20 for 4 EUR   :P
« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 01:31:29 am by Kiriakos-GR »
 

Pradipta

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #71 on: April 24, 2010, 05:07:24 pm »
Aaaaaaaaaa... ...I can't wait any longer for the multimeter shoutout...! And Dave, you have reviewed all of the Flukes except the 179 (and the 77 IV), the most affordable made in USA Fluke. That will close the chapter, at least for now.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #72 on: April 24, 2010, 11:48:37 pm »
And how long should the humble multimeter be subject to such criticism? Rightfully till the end of the world.
@Simon: It is the evil world of outsourcing. Fluke, Agilent, Extech and probably all big manufacturers have manufacturing plants in China. Can you accept Agilent having the top of the line hand held multimeter outsourced to Malaysia.

FYI, Agilent do not outsource anything to Malaysia. Their hand-held design team is based there and manufacturing is done in-house by Agilent.

Dave.
 

Offline PetrosA

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #73 on: April 25, 2010, 04:02:39 am »
FYI, Agilent do not outsource anything to Malaysia. Their hand-held design team is based there and manufacturing is done in-house by Agilent.

Dave.

Dave, you have to admit that comparing the Amprobe clamp meters (now discontinued) to the Agilent clamp meters, it looks like someone's doing some outsourcing or serious copying... I don't know where the Amprobe ones were made.

http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?nid=-34618.920248.00&cc=US&lc=eng

http://www.tequipment.net/AmprobeACDC-3000.asp
http://www.tequipment.net/AmprobeACDC-620T.asp
http://www.tequipment.net/AmprobeACD-330T.asp
I miss my home I miss my porch, porch
 

Offline saturation

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Re: EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters
« Reply #74 on: April 25, 2010, 11:14:01 am »
This is a common issue with ODM houses, they retain rights to the design and sell it freely to other companies, so one design can have multiple brands and multiple prices.  The big question is do they really differ?

In China, an equally endemic issue is pirating the design by the contracted manufacturer and the creation of near perfect counterfeit.  It should be a good topic for discussion with all types of gear.  How its could be done, e.g. Rigol orders 1000 DS1052E scopes from factory XYZ but XYZ engineers, knowing how popular the product is, makes 2000, fills Rigols order to satisfaction and bills Rigol for 1000.  It then sells the other 1000 on the Internet or the grey market; or it takes the design plans and goes to factory ABC and asks them to make it.  This is a common problem for iPods.

AFAIK, Fluke maybe the only one, not yet affected by this problem.



Amprobe [yellow] vs Agilent [orange]:



Tenma handheld scope, and the Uni-T scope:






FYI, Agilent do not outsource anything to Malaysia. Their hand-held design team is based there and manufacturing is done in-house by Agilent.

Dave.

Dave, you have to admit that comparing the Amprobe clamp meters (now discontinued) to the Agilent clamp meters, it looks like someone's doing some outsourcing or serious copying... I don't know where the Amprobe ones were made.

http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?nid=-34618.920248.00&cc=US&lc=eng

http://www.tequipment.net/AmprobeACDC-3000.asp
http://www.tequipment.net/AmprobeACDC-620T.asp
http://www.tequipment.net/AmprobeACD-330T.asp
« Last Edit: April 25, 2010, 11:15:48 am by saturation »
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 


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