EEVBLOG #75 - Digital Multimeters

[EEVblog]

I honestly don't know what happened, I started talking, and the next thing I knew it was 52 minutes worth.
It was supposed to be a quick guide, really truly!

Flames invited!

Dave.

[Waifian]

  Nick likes this. 

[saturation]

I agree with 99.9% of what you said except in regards to bench desktop MM.  I think when it comes to accuracy and uV level [ likewise all V,I,R] measurements, they remain standards.  Few need to own one though, I don't.

If the "average" electronics person needs a meter with ~ 0.5% of rdg DC at $220 with many field useful features, why pay for .0004% such as a $9,000 Aligent 3458A ?





Note for bang for buck: 0.5/.0004 = 1,250 while 9,000/220 = 40.  That 1250x increase in accuracy for 40x the cost.

[migsantiago]

The bench dmm I have at school lab is awesome. It gives me 6 digits of precision, which I use to measure resistance on a high accuracy circuit I'm building. It also measures micro Volts, which was useful when I was testing some ultra low offset ampops. 

[allanw]

What do you think about getting used Flukes from ebay? I don't want to spend very much money and don't need super high accuracy. So, I was searching for the Fluke 83 and some of them have gone for $60-$70, which seems like a great deal:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280491339945
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270560542009

I guess the only concern is on features not working and having no recourse...

[EEVblog]

I agree with 99.9% of what you said except in regards to bench desktop MM.  I think when it comes to accuracy and uV level [ likewise all V,I,R] measurements, they remain standards.  Few need to own one though, I don't.

Exactly, and that's why it is not wroth recommending them to someone who watches a beginner video like this. I was of course referring to the low end bench meters, like for $200 you can get from various manufacturers and electronics shops. Uni-T are but one example. They have very few if any advantages over a hand held meter. If you need 0.0005% accuracy then you hardly need to watch my video!

If you want accuracy, get one of these babies, a bargain for the price:
http://instrumentation2000.com/gmcinstrumentsmetrahit30mtrms65digitmultimeter.aspx

Dave.

[EEVblog]

What do you think about getting used Flukes from ebay? I don't want to spend very much money and don't need super high accuracy. So, I was searching for the Fluke 83 and some of them have gone for $60-$70, which seems like a great deal:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280491339945
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270560542009

I guess the only concern is on features not working and having no recourse...

That's the chance you take to save some dollars, especially with the older original models. I've had mostly good luck with used Flukes on ebay though, but occasionally some bad apples.
I generally say go for it if you can't afford a new one, there are bargains to be had. The original Fluke 25 and 27 can be picked up pretty cheaply, and the 83 and 85 models generally go for less than the 87.

Dave.

[saturation]

I agree with 99.9% of what you said except in regards to bench desktop MM.  I think when it comes to accuracy and uV level [ likewise all V,I,R] measurements, they remain standards.  Few need to own one though, I don't.

Exactly, and that's why it is not wroth recommending them to someone who watches a beginner video like this. I was of course referring to the low end bench meters, like for $200 you can get from various manufacturers and electronics shops. Uni-T are but one example. They have very few if any advantages over a hand held meter. If you need 0.0005% accuracy then you hardly need to watch my video!

If you want accuracy, get one of these babies, a bargain for the price:
http://instrumentation2000.com/gmcinstrumentsmetrahit30mtrms65digitmultimeter.aspx

Dave.

I'm amazed!  Thanks Dave.  Its worth some study.

Your videos are not only factual, but fun and entertaining.  You made DMMs into a celebrity!

[saturation]

What do you think about getting used Flukes from ebay? I don't want to spend very much money and don't need super high accuracy. So, I was searching for the Fluke 83 and some of them have gone for $60-$70, which seems like a great deal:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280491339945
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270560542009

I guess the only concern is on features not working and having no recourse...

That's the chance you take to save some dollars, especially with the older original models. I've had mostly good luck with used Flukes on ebay though, but occasionally some bad apples.
I generally say go for it if you can't afford a new one, there are bargains to be had. The original Fluke 25 and 27 can be picked up pretty cheaply, and the 83 and 85 models generally go for less than the 87.

Dave.

I concur with Dave.  I've been shopping with eBay for sometime, but I have never paid more than I could afford to lose to fraud.  Some of those sellers linked seem pretty reputable, and they been vendors for some years, but its always a risk.  I remember when some of those working antiques were new    I'm impressed there is such an aftermarket for some of the older models of many brands.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Unbuilt-Sabtronics-Digital-Multimeter-DMM-Heathkit-doc_W0QQitemZ330416125135QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item4cee55f4cf

Was my first DMM, the hand held version I built in 1980.  It used Intersil 7106 A/D, it became popular as a DMM on a chip, and is still made today

http://www.intersil.com/data/fn/fn3082.pdf

[dimlow]

Just one small comment.

I don't quite agree with the getting a latched continuity beeper. I like the scratchy ones as you call it, For testing micro switches and other switches they are great. You can tell by listening to the sound of a switch press if it has bad contacts. You get a nice clean sound with a good switch , but with a bad switch you can hear the intermittent scratchy sound. The latched ones only tell you if there is a connection or not. Not that useful really.

[Kiriakos-GR]

Well from my point of view, I did not found this video helpful .

I has hope , that would be a comparison , or presentation ... of mid range multimeter's ,
the ones that you can trust .

Comparing  6$  worth  with 400$ ones , even in just specs , become just confusing.

You had there  tree called cheapys .... the two was truly garbage , and the big one ,
was from the Taiwanese "  Pro's Kit "  , who builds multi meters , the last 20 years .
http://www.proskit.com/cgi-bin/proskit/aboutus.html

And you blasted  the instrument  at the " safety " area ... by keep talking for high power ..
And I am asking .. How high Dave ?  

How much High energy the home user, will find in his wall plug ?

My own "Pro's Kit" multimeter , since 1992 , it does have the 10Mohm impedance , it does have  2.6V continuity voltage,
frequency meter to 20kHz , internal temperature , capacitance tester,
plus transistor tester ... that you had call it as gimmick ..   why is an  gimmick ? , you had never  feel the need, to make an quick test, on a simple BC547 or 548 transistor .

By having the selector at the transistor tester , the multimeter should work as frequency meter to 20kHz,
test it ...  
 
The 1000V Dave , its not Industrial voltage , the max  industrial voltage are  3 phases 380V AC .

The 1000V on multi meters , was there to serve  the technicians who does Television repairs ,
that you have  1000V  with just 200mA  current ..

I work in the Greek Army ( small contract ) , and I am speaking all day with true electronic engineers,
and they complain ,  that even the FLUKE one gets damaged , from high voltage , even with out the fuses to get activated ... by just measuring voltage.
Thats why they prefer to use  mid range tools , because they cost less .

Safety ...  I love it , but as real electrician ,  I will never use my multimeter  at the main transformer who haves  25.000V .

All our factory, runs at the most of 380 AC Volts , 220 for ordinary lines ,  and 120V for some old American power tools .
  
And I have not found yet , any other electrician at the maintenance department, that we are as six ,
to complain about , the mid range multimeter .. that the Army provide to us .
And they are common models , mid range class.

VDE tests ?  exploding multi meters  ?  at what voltage they tested it ?

Dave, have you ever cause damage , in to a multimeter ?
Tell us , your own experience.

And one last matter , I noticed that the MetraWatt uses SIBA Fuses ,
that haves as  30.000A  breaking point ,   The Fluke use Fuses with just 20.000A  breaking point capacity.
So, write on the score board , Germany VS U.S.A.  1-0    

  
My own Fluke 87-5 , arrives tomorrow , I will respect it, as I do with all my other tools ,
but not more.




 

 

[Kiriakos-GR]

For testing micro switches ....... You can tell by listening to the sound of a switch press if it has bad contacts........ The latched ones only tell you if there is a connection or not. Not that useful really.

I agree with you , about testing micro switches by using this method, but not all multi meters , have the same buzzer - beeping sound .

The Fluke sounds like having an speaker in it, than a metallic buzzer .

At this point Dave's advice , about having more than one multimeter , are totally correct .
No just for measurement comparisons , but also for such specific tasks .

I am aware , that we have at list five deferent groups of people , looking for the "magic" multimeter that will satisfy all their needs ..

1) The amateur students , 2) The hard core hobbyists 3) The professional electricians 4) The developers of electronics  5) The professionals who repair electronics .

It would be wiser , if there was an separate video for its target group , one video for all groups  , causes mixed feelings and confusion.

Even so , we all need to thanks Dave , from the bottom of our hart ,  he did his best ..  
  

 

[saturation]

Maybe the title should be Newbies Guide to Buying DMM.  I think Dave was focusing his thoughts on newbies buying a DMM.  Experienced people like you would already know what you want!

But that could be another topic for a video.

Exploding DMM are rare because most work environments, at least in the USA, won't allow such incompetence in the worksite.  In the USA, such problems will create major lawsuits.  We spend a lot of time in safety training where such a risk exits.  However, problems have been reported by some consumers/users.

http://gossenmetrawatt.com/english/seiten/cautiondangerousmultimeters.htm

Fluke has even recalled test leads because of supposed problems.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml04/04131.html

A home user can find high energy risks if they work in category III risk areas, that is working near the junction box, or on 220V appliances like if they try to troubleshoot their washer/dryers.  High voltages spikes could be caused by EMF from the motors particularly if the user tests by turning the units on and off.  

I agree, hFE can be helpful if you work with a lot of transistors.  But that is an out-of-circuit test.  For that it might be easier to buy a cheapie MM as a transistor tester.  After all, you can't have just one DMM     In Germany, testing by their product safety group found that the hFE socket is a risk for high voltage injury since it shares a common ground and, you can connect a transistor to it and still use the DMM for voltage measurements.  They ran required safety tests on 105 store bought "consumer" grade DMM. All failed.  Its consumer because in Germany, products used by professionals must pass safety regulations.  In the US, all professionally used DMM are certified for safety regulation, but its use is not mandated by law.  However, if someone is injured because of non-compliance with safety standards, the US labor office, OSHA, will hold the employer and work place liable and sue them for fines or jail time.

http://gps.sozialnetz.de/go/id/pn/

[ In German, but translation available via google]

Some models are sold all over the world, with different brand names:





Fuse ratings won't matter so long as both DMM conform to the safety standard.  That's all we care about.  If that's what the manufacturer mandates in their DMM, that's what we should use.  Note the CE safety mark on the lower right, that is useless, it can be made by the manufacturer to suggest their internal testing meets IEC specs, but not that tested by independent testing.

In the Navy work, I'm not sure why your engineers lost so many Flukes, but in the US we would return those units.  All the top end Flukes are guaranteed for 'life'.   It sounds like they experienced high voltage low current transients that likely arc'd inside the casing, suggesting those Fluke's are either a very old design or defective.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml02/02231.html
 
In the USA, if a Fluke is reported to act strange, it will trigger them to investigate even recall items like test leads.  How much more to be damaged while being used as designed?

[EEVblog]

Maybe the title should be Newbies Guide to Buying DMM.  I think Dave was focusing his thoughts on newbies buying a DMM.  Experienced people like you would already know what you want!

I did originally have newbie in the title but decided to remove it, because I figured there might be some useful info in there for people who don't consider themselves newbies, so may not have viewed the video otherwise.
That raises an interesting point actually, I've learned that the titles of my videos are very important. Regulars will of course watch every video, but attracting new viewers when they search youtube or google is another art entirely.

That meter is frigg'n hilarious!

Dave.

[mausball]

Great vlog! My only beef (and the one that finally got me to register) was the rag on bench DMMs. Handhelds are wonderful, and even the $1200 GMC 6.5 digit handheld is nice, but if I want fast, reliable, 4 wire high precision measurements or simultaneous voltage and frequency numbers from a set of probes, it's hard to get that in a package better than a nice bench meter. Oh, and no batteries to lose, bigger, brighter displays, proper data capture, proper GPIB or serial connections, etc. I have a pile of handheld meters, and I love them dearly, but I also have a few bench meters (including a phenomenally nice 7.5 digit Agilent I got for a price I still don't believe), and I use them quite a lot.

I suppose it has a lot to do with one's personal work style, or how one learned the craft, but I think out-of-hand dismissal of bench meters is just a little....rantish. But that said, keep on ranting! I love the blog!

[MightyTwin]

*snip*

http://gps.sozialnetz.de/go/id/pn/

[ In German, but translation available via google]

*Snip*

http://gps.sozialnetz.de/global/show_document.asp?id=aaaaaaaaaaaakar

This 'meter looks vaguely familiar...

-MightyTwin.

[EEVblog]

I suppose it has a lot to do with one's personal work style, or how one learned the craft, but I think out-of-hand dismissal of bench meters is just a little....rantish. But that said, keep on ranting! I love the blog!

The blog was aimed at beginners, so therefore all the positives about high priced high end bench meters aren't really relevant to that audience.

Dave.

[Waifian]

Check out what they are making us use where I work. Note the CAT labels....
I dropped this from 3 feet and it turned into a maraca. 

[Kiriakos-GR]

For the moment I will just post a picture , so to share my enthusiasm , with the few who could understand  my feelings .. 

Arrived today ... Just picked it up , after my morning job .
So I am a dead body , and hungry one , with out energy to do any tests ..
Other than just an AC measurement .. 



More news, later on ...   
It came all the way from Honolulu to Greece with express shipping 43$..
Damn Shinny , all fuses good , back light ok, not sign of use !! or even a small one     

[saturation]

I forgot to mention the CAT II rating on the left of that image.  Like many cheapos, how do you know its really CAT II?

Notice the setting on the selector knob: 200V, 200KOhm, and mA in one setting.  With the V-Ohm-A setting a slide switch, you can go from measuring volts to short circuit with one switch.

I used this DMM as example because I've also seen it, its very small, shirt pocket sized.  It measures DC circuits OK, but how will its target market, the consumer, know not to use it for more?

On the German pdf file, you will see a link to RAPEX:

http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/dyna/rapex/rapex_archives_en.cfm

Unlike the US, EU is willing to recall or ban some multimeters under consumer product safety rules.

Another idea for Dave is doing stress tests on these elcheapo DMM and see how they survive where a professional meter is preferred.  

Note, in the German pdf report, the MM on the right of the picture is very much like a portable Fluke scope, so its monitoring the same conditions/load as the test DMM.

Maybe the title should be Newbies Guide to Buying DMM.  I think Dave was focusing his thoughts on newbies buying a DMM.  Experienced people like you would already know what you want!

I did originally have newbie in the title but decided to remove it, because I figured there might be some useful info in there for people who don't consider themselves newbies, so may not have viewed the video otherwise.
That raises an interesting point actually, I've learned that the titles of my videos are very important. Regulars will of course watch every video, but attracting new viewers when they search youtube or google is another art entirely.

That meter is frigg'n hilarious!

Dave.

[saturation]

I'm happy for you, K.  Give us your review as you have time.  It looks in very good shape, practically new.
You're old DMM seems to be quite well used, a testament also to its durability.

Note, for safety the lightning annunciator to warn you about the shock potential of the V you have on.

For the moment I will just post a picture , so to share my enthusiasm , with the few who could understand  my feelings ..  

Arrived today ... Just picked it up , after my morning job .
So I am a dead body , and hungry one , with out energy to do any tests ..
Other than just an AC measurement ..  

[mausball]

The blog was aimed at beginners, so therefore all the positives about high priced high end bench meters aren't really relevant to that audience.

No worries Dave, I know it was. I guess my kneejerk post was related to the fact that there are lots of professionals who watch as well.

Check out what they are making us use where I work. Note the CAT labels....
I dropped this from 3 feet and it turned into a maraca. 

Ouch! My WaveTek 27xt (from back in the blue-box pre-MeterMan takeover days) is still going strong. Off a ladder, off the roof, off a moving train (!), and knocked off countless benches over the years. I guess they don't make them like they used to....

[Waifian]

@ Kiriakos-GR
I didn't know they made those in black, thats pretty sweet!

[Kiriakos-GR]

@ Kiriakos-GR
I didn't know they made those in black, thats pretty sweet!

All  87-V ( 87-5) has this gray dark color .

With the Yellow protective holster around it , looks like a "half peeled" banana .. 

[Waifian]

Maybe the picture is making it look Black. I can't seem to find any pictures using a google picture search that shows one as dark as yours which looks solid black to me . That's still an awesome meter. I have a 189(personal use), all the bells and whistles non of the battery life.  

The Fluke 189 has only about 74 hours of battery life where the Fluke 87 has about 450. I guess it doesn't matter too much because I only use it when I am working on things at home and usually turn it off after making the measurements I want. One of these days when I can afford it I may get a 87.

I am broke for now though because of my fairly recent Rigol purchase.  

Edit: Never mind I found some that look the same. 

[Kiriakos-GR]

I'm happy for you, K.  Give us your review as you have time.  It looks in very good shape, practically new.
You're old DMM seems to be quite well used, a testament also to its durability.

Note, for safety the lightning annunciator to warn you about the shock potential of the V you have on.

Thanks Mate for your positive spirit  

I will write few words about my feelings, for the Newcomer ..

The first quirk found on it , was at the temperature setting, the inner sensor in order to work ,
needs from your end , to have leads crossed ( in contact ) ...  thats stupid ... but understandable .
It does not have an separate K-Prob input , so it needs my help to react properly.
With out the leads crossed the screen reads  { OPEn  }  ( circuit )    

The holster , with the extended rear ( foot - leg - support point ) , does not look to be well designed ,
it causes the feeling that the instrument will fall - flip , by an accidental sock , or even by pooling the test leads  in your direction.
( I am working on a solution about it , I had not made my mind yet )  
 
Check this picture..



Another  quirk that I found , are the clear plastic on the  display ,
its so shiny that causes  reflections  " glare " , even with the indoor lighting.  
( An not shinny LCD protector film , could be the answer )

Another  quirk
At High Resolution mode ...  at 20V (end of the high resolution road )
The meter correctly show as { 19.999 } above that drops to { 20.10 },that is logical.
In order to show again the high Resolution , it does not need to lower the voltage to less than 20 again , but to drop it down to 16.80 ... then it shows again High resolution .  Why ? .. why why ? tight asses  
( My DC PSU has an 30 turns potentiometer on it ... I have to do 3-4  complete rotations to drop it that low !! )
.
.
.



Other than that , the instrument looks solid ... Thanks God  


Few posts above I had speak about the inner Fuses, quick acting ones.  
And I just feel the need to explain my view - opinion - conclusion .

a)  About the Fuse ratings , the higher Fuse ratting , will force the manufacturer ,
to make one equal rated  PCB design and electronics .... So the MetraWatt must be better made than Fluke, so to survive in such an incident .

b)  Fuse rating - Max breaking capacity in KA  or thousands of Ampere ....
We need some one more expert , to tell us whats going on here ..
By combining scattered info .. like ..
1) The 87 Fluke can do 20A at 20 secs at 1KV  
2) Fluke recently updated the fuse rating from 17KA to 20KA ( 20.000A) ( 11A one)
3) The word capacity =  Amperes + time =  keep alive seconds
By combining all those , the MetraWatt should doing if I am not mistaken ,
as 20A for 30 seconds Max !!  
So its  33.3% more powerful in this area .    
  
c) We should not " force " the people , to throw away good tools , just from fear ,
that could " possibly "  blow - explode  ....  I recommencement to all who haves such instruments ,
to get an pair of " fusible probes " ... simple - effective - cheap.

d) Common glass fuses , does not explode , never did .
The car industry uses those for years .
Still , by replacing your old fuses , with " quick active ones " ( those with grey body instead of glass ),
its an clever or smart thing to do ,  those  modern - better - fuses , are probably used on the fusible probes too.

e) One last notice about multimeter 's  with slots and openings on the front panel.
Those are totally " in door " designs ... moisture or liquids are the enemy here .
One little opening on the multimeter , its not possible to be an enemy.

But for out door usage ... there are high risks ,  but this haves to worry mostly the industrial electricians,
that they " have to " work in all weather conditions,  &  also use  "open type toolboxes" ,
or if the environment that they work , are full of steams - heat or what ever other factor ,
that could raise the humidity level sky high , and could transform one simple multimeter ,
in to a wet stick ...  

Yes there is special gloves - boots - cloths ,
but electricity uses always the most direct path to meet you .  

About my old and brave one  
I had never removed the protective cheap nylon from the face plate ,
but even so , looks and works great .  

Dave.. I started reading your theory about the " burden voltage " .
Interesting stuff - for advanced tasks.  ( but lets stay on topic)        

 
 

[Kiriakos-GR]

Maybe the picture is making it look Black.

Check this link .. http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/showimage.aspx?gid=238574&image=359992571&images=359992571,359992649,359992608,359992632,359992866,359992847,359992737,359992754,359992703,359992721,359992666,359992777,359992889,359992796,359992587,359992827,359992810,359992995,359992978,359992950,359992911,359992932&formats=0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0&format=0

Its my multimeter , pictures are taken by the eBay seller.

[andri]

That meter is frigg'n hilarious!

I happen to own a multimeter that is probably a close relative to the one in that picture. (And no, I wouldn't call myself a proud owner). I got it a couple of years ago when I needed something that resembles a multimeter to take some quick measurements and they
were dirt cheap (in the 10€ range) at my local electronics store.

As people here tend to like multimeter porn, I opened it up and snapped a couple of pics (sorry for the distortion, I was using my mobile phone):




Given how Dave likes to talk about the importance of proper input design, it makes you really wonder how they justified slapping the "HIGH SAFETY" label on this one.

[Kiriakos-GR]

As people here tend to like multimeter porn, I opened it up and snapped a couple of pics (sorry for the distortion, I was using my mobile phone):

Good one  

it makes you really wonder how they justified slapping the "HIGH SAFETY" label on this one.

andri welcome , your name sounds to be from France .

Any way , no , I would be proud of your multimeter , if its going to be used at it named rating.
That is  500V ... This is what you had pay for , and get .

Those  " burned examples " , was tested .. OR  better said .. " blasted" , with an minimum of  1300 Volts.

The CAT III 1000 , its the nominal  not the maximum ,  the maximum should be 20-30% above that.  
Or even more ...

[EEVblog]

d) Common glass fuses , does not explode , never did .
The car industry uses those for years .
Still , by replacing your old fuses , with " quick active ones " ( those with grey body instead of glass ),
its an clever or smart thing to do ,  those  modern - better - fuses , are probably used on the fusible probes too.

Sorry, but you are off-the-mark and incorrect. Please go look up what HRC fuses are designed for, there are very good reasons why they exist and are used in multimeters and other equipment.
Standard glass fuses can only interrupt say an order of magnitude more than their rated current. Any higher and they may arc over, which means the fuse will continue to pass the current and it and other components can violently explode as a result.

It's not uncommon to find glass scattered all over your gear when glass fuses explode due to gross overloads.

Dave.

[Kiriakos-GR]

Sorry, but you are off-the-mark and incorrect. Please go look up what HRC fuses are designed for, there are very good reasons why they exist and are used in multimeters and other equipment.
Standard glass fuses can only interrupt say an order of magnitude more than their rated current. Any higher and they may arc over, which means the fuse will continue to pass the current and it and other components can violently explode as a result.

It's not uncommon to find glass scattered all over your gear when glass fuses explode due to gross overloads.

Dave.

Hi Dave .... arc over = some thousands of volts .
We can search and find  at what specific voltage rate,
the electricity can arc over the distance of 11 mm of the classic small fuses, or the distance of 19mm,
of the large Fast acting ones .

What we will never find, are totally fool proof multimeters .    

[PetrosA]

CAT ratings are explained here:

http://digital.ni.com/public.nsf/allkb/05D3F9C0F740BC2986256E9A00505421

The dangers that CAT ratings protect against are voltage spikes. Good multimeters will also be designed to minimize the likelihood of the meter becoming the source of an arc flash (which is one of the main reasons for using the HRC fuses). Most residential circuit breakers in N. America and Europe can withstand 10,000 amperes which is the most common available fault current from the transformers used by utilities. A meter has to be able to deal safely with that much fault current (and more) moving through it in the event of a voltage spike. This article gives an example of the dangers posed by a cheap multimeter on a common voltage:

http://ecmweb.com/ops_maintenance/defective-test-equipment-20100101/

As the first link shows, any outlet you test within 30'/10m of the point of origin of your electric service will be either CAT III or CAT IV and CAT II is only where you are at least 30'/10m from a CAT III source. So in most single family homes and in many apartments there may not be any CAT II outlets in the building which means you couldn't SAFELY use a CAT II meter to check any of the mains voltage at all.

Kyriakos is wrong that the highest industrial voltages are 380V 3Ø (phase to phase). While 380V 3Ø is a "common" voltage in the EU, it's not the only voltage used. In the US a common industrial 3Ø voltage is 480V and in both the US and EU electric motors are often 600V, 1200V and higher. It's also not true that you need thousands of volts to "arc over". US receptacles are designed to withstand 600V before arcing over (approx. 10mm gap). IIRC, EU plug gaps allow for a 1000V arc. They are designed this way to help shunt voltage in case of transformer failure or lightning strikes to ground. Transformer failures can cause huge voltage spikes lasting for many minutes at a time, and recurring when the automatic resets on the utility breakers keep trying to switch power back on. Mains power is truly a different beast and should be approached with extreme caution.

At the beginning of the 20th century, 1 out of 2 electricians were killed on the job. The numbers have come down drastically only because we are so much more aware of safe work practices and safer equipment designs.

[Kiriakos-GR]

While 380V 3Ø is a "common" voltage in the EU, it's not the only voltage used. In the US a common industrial 3Ø voltage is 480V and in both the US and EU electric motors are often 600V, 1200V and higher.

Ok ... ok ... but we talk here about multimeters , and the we do not teach the basics at the target group of industrial electricians of some factory , that it happens to own 2-3 electric motors that needs a 1000V to operate.

We have children's , fathers  and grandfathers , who just do basic measurements , in LOW power city network .. and  we should not scare those people , and look to them , as sellers of health  insurances,
that what usually do , are to repeatedly  remind you about 100 hazardous possibility's , in order to force you to buy, the damn health insurance contract ..    

Lets keep it simple .. lets not curred away , by creating a pile of  theory with out practical use .
If its hard even for one industrial electrician to find a motor with 1000V AC ,
why to bother all those people , with our debates about the absolute maximum limits ?

And , the point is that if I am measuring my own home plug , and at the same time  a massive lightning strikes the pole next to me and all that energy comes to my wall plug ,
I will survive , and be saved  because of the 400$  FLUKE ?

In such unpredictable conditions , its best to not be there at all .
 
If you are at the wrong place , at the wrong time, it called as accident , because it is one .

And there is no multimeter , that could handle such conditions, it just has not born yet,
and probably never will do .

  

[EEVblog]

Lets keep it simple .. lets not curred away , by creating a pile of  theory with out practical use .
If its hard even for one industrial electrician to find a motor with 1000V AC ,
why to bother all those people , with our debates about the absolute maximum limits ?

I thought I and others have been keeping it fairly simple.
The message is pretty clear, if you measure the mains you should get a properly designed name brand meter with a suitable CAT rating. At the very minimum a properly designed meter that doesn't have other dangers like poor quality probe insulation, exposed live metal screws or capacitor test sockets or whatever.
If you don't measure mains stuff then any old one-hung-low brand meter will do just fine.
So it really is a simple precautionary message.
IMO anyone who tries to argue the thin edge technicalities of it all is just being a twit.

Unfortunately some beginners and/or fans of el-cheapo meters don't seem to be able to comprehend or have respect for the potential dangers, so it unfortunately has to be explained to them ad nauseam, and the scary exploding multimeter videos help too!

And quite frankly almost any hobbyist will eventually want to measure the mains, so why not get that $50 name brand meter instead of the $10 one to begin with?

Dave.

[Kiriakos-GR]

At the very minimum a properly designed meter that doesn't have other dangers like poor quality probe insulation, exposed live metal screws or capacitor test sockets or whatever.

Dave.

a) exposed live metal screws ? .... its a damn plastic box , how it will become "live" ?  
b) test sockets ? ...  you will have  to spent allot of energy , and you will not win at the end ,
about making the planet to spin backwards  

But you are lucky ,  in the next 15 years , that all the TV sets will be 100% TFT - Plasma or what ever,
the small transistor slots , they will disappear from the face plate of multimeters .

Also because the new TV sets works with low DC , no one will care about CAT III other that some stupids electricians like me .  

But the capacitors slots , they will hunt you down for ever    as long there is even one electrolytic alive  ...

Take care Dave !!   ROFL  

I have meet and work with Australians , we was six months together.
We share the same passion as nations ,  when we stand behind of our opinions ..  
  

[XynxNet]

[...]
Hi Dave .... arc over = some thousands of volts .
We can search and find  at what specific voltage rate,
the electricity can arc over the distance of 11 mm of the classic small fuses, or the distance of 19mm,
of the large Fast acting ones .
[...]

When you massivly overload the classic unprotected small fuse, your fuse wire gets vaporized. The resulting hot metal vapor air mixture is mutch more conductive than normal air. Because of that the fuse can arc over at a much smaler voltage.

[Kiriakos-GR]

I took some quick lessons about fuses and arc-over, last night ..

Looks like , that the general rule are ... as much higher voltage fuse rating , the better about fuses build quality and behavior = anti arc over design .  

I have never bothered to look at high voltage fuses , because in everything that uses high voltage above 300V,  we secure the  220 input of the transformer by fuse , never the output.

The larger DC PSU that I have see from very close , was  selectable  700 - 2000V , and was used to power up the last tube ( stage )  ( RF amplifier )  (FM transmitter) of the American tubes ,
that they called as CX 4x250  or  CX 4x1000 , that produces large amount of RF power .

I had work - experiment - was my hobby -  the FM transmitters , but I was had always transistors as output ,like  dual  MRF317 , 250Watts on my antenna .
I had experiment and with tubes , like the EL-504 , but those was low output 25W ,
and the most that was able to handle , was as 300 - 400 DC at their anode.        

[alm]

c) We should not " force " the people , to throw away good tools , just from fear ,
that could " possibly "  blow - explode  ....  I recommencement to all who haves such instruments ,
to get an pair of " fusible probes " ... simple - effective - cheap.

Fused probes are a horrible idea in my opinion, the only reason why Fluke makes some is because it's mandated by some safety standard. Fused probes should only be used if you religiously use do a three-point test (known live circuit, circuit under test, known live circuit) for every measurement, otherwise they may incorrectly indicate 0V. I also doubt if a crappy meter plus fused probes offers the same safety as a real CAT II/III meter, will the fairly high-current fuse blow early enough to prevent any explosion or arcing?

But I do agree that applying industrial electrician standards to home use is silly, you'd be hard-pressed to find anything like CAT III 600V in most average homes, at most CAT III 380V (and for actual electronics usually CAT II/III 240V).

[TheWelly888]

Dave mentioned that no-one uses the transistor Hfe testers on the cheapo multi-meters. No wonder when they can only be used on low power outline ones such as BC558s etc and cannot be used at all with TO3 outline transistors such an 2N3055s!

I bought one of these for checking out discrete semiconductor devices ( BJTs, FETs and diodes ) and it's dead easy to use, just connect the leads any old where on the two/three legged thingy and it will tell you what the thingy is and what the lead outs are. http://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/jz_dca55.html

[Waifian]

Or you could look up the data sheet if you need info on it.
Use the diode check function to see if its bad. You can also figure out if the BJT is a pnp or npn this way with out the transistor hfe "feature".

[Pradipta]

In my opinion, closed case (electronic) calibration is a thing to look out for. That leaves out the chance of a potentiometer being altered from a hard knock, among other advantages.
Basic input abuse the Dave way maybe a scale of choosing the odd ones out. Yes, people will say that it is callous to have a meter on ohms and hook up to the mains, but remember Murphy's law. Ironically, this is not rare anyhow. If one needs warning indicators and terminal blockers on the amps jack, the former can be highly probable.
Conclusion: best is the meter that you need. A student can not afford to use a 87 V and a mainstream professional can not afford to use a cheap chinese meter.

[EEVblog]

The cheap multimeter will be on their way soon, 5x $50 ones and 5x $100 ones. So we'll see what kind of meter you can get for not much money.

Dave.

[Kiriakos-GR]

The cheap multimeter will be on their way soon, 5x $50 ones and 5x $100 ones. So we'll see what kind of meter you can get for not much money.

Dave.

Alleluia  !!      

[EEVblog]

Conclusion: best is the meter that you need. A student can not afford to use a 87 V and a mainstream professional can not afford to use a cheap chinese meter.

Thankfully there are MANY good meters in between. It's certainly possible to get a good quality safe brand name meter for around the $50 mark. The upcoming Multimeter shootout will be interesting to see what they have to offer for the price.

Dave.

[desolatordan]

Are you also reviewing one of the cheap-o $3 dollar ones?

[EEVblog]

Are you also reviewing one of the cheap-o $3 dollar ones?

No, I think that would spoil it, and I don't think I could ever stoop so low as to seriously review a sub $10 meter.
The idea is to find the best value and well made meter in two different price categories. In this case it's around $50 and $100. The $100 mark ones all have TRMS.
I could of course have a $10 category as well, but of course that's kinda pointless because they are all equally shit IMO!

Dave.

[saturation]

Are you also reviewing one of the cheap-o $3 dollar ones?

No, I think that would spoil it, and I don't think I could ever stoop so low as to seriously review a sub $10 meter.
The idea is to find the best value and well made meter in two different price categories. In this case it's around $50 and $100. The $100 mark ones all have TRMS.
I could of course have a $10 category as well, but of course that's kinda pointless because they are all equally shit IMO!

Dave.

It might be a good thing to demonstrate because consumers are more numerous than hobbyists, and far more than engineers.

So, you'll be like a Consumer advocate/Report and you can show:

you can show what those marking mean, and if they have none
how accurately they track compared to better meters
how safe they are under CAT II, most home use, and III, home appliance use

Usually, such things will make the general press and even TV spots.  

As the late 'Steve Irwin' was to wildlife, you could be to electronics.  As you suggested in one video, there is a resurgence of the hobbyist, hacker, maker crowd, so the timing could be ripe for even a spot on the Discovery channel, like Mythbusters.  You never know, but seize the moment.

I can see it now, instead of 'crickey' it'll be 'its garbage!' 

There are a large number of hacks being done everyday, mostly quietly, and mostly in Asia, who are constant trying to get more from their devices.   A lot are in cellphones, a lot of are quasi-legal, and it differs from model to model, and brand to brand, so there are lots of opportunities for material.

[Kiriakos-GR]

Are you also reviewing one of the cheap-o $3 dollar ones?

After an such question , I can only imagine the face of Dave , getting smokes from his ears  

When just an cheapy crappy leads set, cost more than 8$ , and the proper ones for 15$ and more,
how in earth we should care for the for the 3$ DMM .

And I speak in positive spirit.
I am not trying to make fun of anyone, or be nasty.

The culture of this blog , has to do , at list from what I have understand so far,
with common problems and issues , that would possibly bother , the mid class of the knowledgeable technicians in electronics.

Even I , have seconds thoughts , like that it is possible  the Greek "Mid level" to not qualify with the international one, and that translates to , that I do not fit in here.  

In any way ,  Dave was clear enough , he will evaluate from the 50$ range and up, and nothing less.  
(even my own cheapy , pictured few pages back, got it at 1992 with cost as 95$ . )

Edit: looks that my reply came delayed , but I will let it live ..  

[PetrosA]

I agree with Dave and Kyriakos - you have to draw the line somewhere.

A student can drink a few less beers or smoke less to save for a slightly better meter
A professional in a country like Greece or Poland (I lived there for 14 years) can save some money to get the best they can afford
You can buy something used to save a few dollars
Hacking a cheap meter would be a waste of time


I seriously doubt that consumers are a large group buying multimeters. Unless you have unlimited funds, most of us who need them will be trying to save money on what we buy but the equally important lesson in all of this is not to sacrifice safety for savings. We can't afford that.

[Simon]

I think the blog was aimed as mentioned earlier in the topic at people buying their first meters, I think most of us would prefer and need to spend the price of one bench meter on a number of neccessary handheld multimeters before buying a bench one, I currently have 5 handheld meters which I trust to various degrees and have to make do with my new amprobe AM220 as my master meter, I'll be buying a decent fluke long before i can afford a bench meter

[Chasm]

Hi,

I thought I and others have been keeping it fairly simple.
The message is pretty clear, if you measure the mains you should get a properly designed name brand meter with a suitable CAT rating. At the very minimum a properly designed meter that doesn't have other dangers like poor quality probe insulation, exposed live metal screws or capacitor test sockets or whatever.

I think that this is the thing to keep in mind both in this discussion and when buying a multimeter - or any other tool.

You may buy whatever multimeter you wish as long as it does meet the appropriate safety standards. Since we are talking about multimeter's this includes also the probes, if this would be about chainsaws we would be also talking about cut resistant trousers, steel caped boots and helmets with visors...

Really, if there should be a 1$ meter out there that actually meets the CATII standard that would be great, and there would be no obvious reason not to use it - but there is not such a meter.

[Kiriakos-GR]

Really, if there should be a 1$ meter out there that actually meets the CATII standard that would be great, and there would be no obvious reason not to use it - but there is not such a meter.

I will play as Game, the lawyer of the Devil , and hit me as hard you can ..

1) Our great  Chinese or Asian or what ever made multimeters are totally safe .

2) They comply with the named rating, that its model has .

3) They come with users manual , and all users should read it,
so to properly and safely,  used this instrument.
(Load a weapon and shoot your self , the call it as bad weapon.)

4) Manufacturing defects , our multimeters are tested , and they do not suffer from any defects,
we was accused that our banana plugs are flimsy made , you had forget to show the back plate , that there is special support mechanism , so to keep those parts in place and unmovable .
( how in earth one unmovable part , can cause stress to the master PCB , when everything are bolted on the meter and  properly supported by the cover ? )

5) The meters with three banana plugs comes fused with 200 - 300mA Fuses ,  even if the meter used  by mistake  at the Ohms mode to measure Mains , the Fuse will engage , and there is no harm done.

6) The un-fused  10A or 20A line , serves an special purpose , the meter works in line measuring Amperes , so there is no issue of  explosion , the only issue  could be if the current will remain in the tolerance of the multimeter.
If not, the multimeter will get damaged , and only the multimeter.

7) The Germans and Europeans , zapped our meters with 2000-3000 Volts ,
so to deliberately sabotage our products , with excuses about VDE or other regulations .
Our products are directed for home use ,  we do not know any home to use 2000V as mains .  

8 ) We will manufacture,  the special model that costs as 1$ , as you requested .        

[armandas]

Really, if there should be a 1$ meter out there that actually meets the CATII standard that would be great, and there would be no obvious reason not to use it - but there is not such a meter.

I will play as Game, the lawyer of the Devil , and hit me as hard you can ..

1) Our great  Chinese or Asian or what ever made multimeters are totally safe .

2) They comply with the named rating, that its model has .

3) They come with users manual , and all users should read it,
so to properly and safely,  used this instrument.
(Load a weapon and shoot your self , the call it as bad weapon.)

4) Manufacturing defects , our multimeters are tested , and they do not suffer from any defects,
we was accused that our banana plugs are flimsy made , you had forget to show the back plate , that there is special support mechanism , so to keep those parts in place and unmovable .
( how in earth one unmovable part , can cause stress to the master PCB , when everything are bolted on the meter and  properly supported by the cover ? )

5) The meters with three banana plugs comes fused with 200 - 300mA Fuses ,  even if the meter used  by mistake  at the Ohms mode to measure Mains , the Fuse will engage , and there is no harm done.

6) The un-fused  10A or 20A line , serves an special purpose , the meter works in line measuring Amperes , so there is no issue of  explosion , the only issue  could be if the current will remain in the tolerance of the multimeter.
If not, the multimeter will get damaged , and only the multimeter.

7) The Germans and Europeans , zapped our meters with 2000-3000 Volts ,
so to deliberately sabotage our products , with excuses about VDE or other regulations .
Our products are directed for home use ,  we do not know any home to use 2000V as mains .   

8 ) We will manufacture,  the special model that costs as 1$ , as you requested .       

Kiriakos, now you're just being stubborn and ridiculous. What safety? What compliance? What manuals?

If you like cheap meters, that's fine with me. You can even invest in Chinese companies making them - I don't care. Just do everyone a favour and stop trolling.

[EEVblog]

Kiriakos, now you're just being stubborn and ridiculous. What safety? What compliance? What manuals?

If you like cheap meters, that's fine with me. You can even invest in Chinese companies making them - I don't care. Just do everyone a favour and stop trolling.

I agree, this is just getting silly.
If it's Kiriakos's attempt at humor then the English translation is just not working.
These sorts of jokes are all well and good until some newbie reads it and takes it as gospel.

Dave.

[Kiriakos-GR]

When I said Hit me , I was ready to get the blow and I am still are .

And , my only intention are to Help Dave ,  by my way .
So to avoid, or better  stay protected , of using points of judgment ,  
that could make him to sound extreme , or overprotective , or Biased in the next video.

If he feels , that its not necessary , I have no reason to Play  the lawyer of the Devil.

Our time , as professionals are valuable , free games, are tasks for people who does not need to work.

Now, I think that I am crystal clear , to all .
Right now, Dave holds the ball , and nobody else.
If he does not needs this "test - game " , its ok with me.  

Regards Kiriakos..

  

[Kiriakos-GR]

What safety? What compliance? What manuals?

Safety : All the damn electrical and electronic devices , from an small radio up to a large sound system, gets protected  with the same fuses and fuse holders ...

User manuals : every device have one , cheap or expensive ..

compliance : The only factor that needs to be tested .

And I will add
" cables-probes" : but those are exchangeable , and its up to the final user,
if he requires better ones , or if they go bad , to replace them with equal or better ones.  

" Display Readability "

"Quality of the selector"

" anti slip pads" 

Lets hope that the translation does not kills my points, this time ..    

[EEVblog]

Safety : All the damn electrical and electronic devices , from an small radio up to a large sound system, gets protected  with the same fuses and fuse holders ...

No they are not, you are wrong. All types of equipment have (sometimes vastly) differing technical requirements, and varying safety standards they must/should meet etc.

User manuals : every device have one , cheap or expensive ..

And the cheap meters have a scrap of paper which is worthless. Just as worthless as the fake CAT ratings stamped on the front.

compliance : The only factor that needs to be tested .

And the really cheap meters are NOT compliance tested, the compliance marks on them are FAKE!

And I will add
" cables-probes" : but those are exchangeable , and its up to the final user,
if he requires better ones , or if they go bad , to replace them with equal or better ones.  

Yes, but what's your point?
If you buy a $10 meter and get shit probes, you aren't going to go out and buy expensive $50 probes to get better safety.

Lets hope that the translation does not kills my points, this time ..    

No offense Kiriakos, but your English translations are not satisfactorily understandable in order to contribute to the debate, you are just confusing everyone!

Dave.

[Simon]

there is something to be said for products that meet their specs only to pass testing and others that are made to be truly usable. I have had many of the cheap meters and they all failed in a short time. it could be that they would tell me that a circuit has 10 volts when it really has 100 because it is an unreliable instrument.

The chinese will and do put fake specs on products, didn't you here about the "C E" marking ? how many chinese manufacturers came up with a very similar making to put on their products, so similar that "CE" because confused with "C E" the same font and style was used unless you knew the difference you could not tell. the difference was that "C E" is the european compliance symbol and "CE" stands for (or so they say) china export, now wht would you put a china export symbol in the place of a certification symbol and make them almost identical but not enopugh for it to be illegal ? you know how many factories in China are called "england" "canada" etc ? so that the manufacturer can put on their products "made in england", I take any chinese manufacturer as a dihonest liar as default unless proven other wise, it is a real pity that european governments don't get their asses in gear and help manufacturing in europe thrive again !

i have a chinese made fan heater, I consider it lethal and will not let anyone but me use it. clearly it was made to justr pass import inspection assuming it got one. I expect it to fail horribly any day, but the chinese manufacturer does not care that his product may burn somebodies house down and kill their family

[Simon]

Safety : All the damn electrical and electronic devices , from an small radio up to a large sound system, gets protected  with the same fuses and fuse holders ...

No they are not, you are wrong. All types of equipment have (sometimes vastly) differing technical requirements, and varying safety standards they must/should meet etc.

User manuals : every device have one , cheap or expensive ..

And the cheap meters have a scrap of paper which is worthless. Just as worthless as the fake CAT ratings stamped on the front.

compliance : The only factor that needs to be tested .

And the really cheap meters are NOT compliance tested, the compliance marks on them are FAKE!

And I will add
" cables-probes" : but those are exchangeable , and its up to the final user,
if he requires better ones , or if they go bad , to replace them with equal or better ones.  

Yes, but what's your point?
If you buy a $10 meter and get shit probes, you aren't going to go out and buy expensive $50 probes to get better safety.

Lets hope that the translation does not kills my points, this time ..    

No offense Kiriakos, but your English translations are not satisfactorily understandable in order to contribute to the debate, you are just confusing everyone!

Dave.

Dave one concession you can make on Kiriakos: I've lived in Italy for 14 years and have seen the total direagard for safety and need to look after yourself, greece is not that much different but he needs to understand that in the rest of the world being killed by faulty equipment is not just one of those things like in the  mediteranian part of the world. In England drivers drive will little regard for others safety, in the mediteranian they drive with little regard for even their own life (and think god will look after them)

[Kiriakos-GR]

No offense Kiriakos, but your English translations are not satisfactorily understandable in order to contribute to the debate, you are just confusing everyone!

Dave.

I had to agree with you , at list thats how it looks,
I just liked to help , by my own ways of thinking.

Never had any intention to cause stress to any one.
So I will just do some steps back , and I will be more cautious in the future.

I wish you success , with your next Video - presentation ,
the subject as "multimeters " its a very sensitive one .
And you do know that all ready , from the emails that you got from the pissed ones.. 

Regards Kiriakos

   

[Pradipta]

And how long should the humble multimeter be subject to such criticism? Rightfully till the end of the world.
@Simon: It is the evil world of outsourcing. Fluke, Agilent, Extech and probably all big manufacturers have manufacturing plants in China. Can you accept Agilent having the top of the line hand held multimeter outsourced to Malaysia. The results are obvious. And do not be confused by 'Made in Hong Kong' or 'Made in Taiwan' or 'Made in R.O.C.': they are all from the Chinese herd. We have got trampled over to such an extent that whenever I pull the remote display from the Fluke 233, people would exclaim 'look what the Chinese have managed!'
Actually, the Chinese people really manage to foster out of the box ideas and never seen before products. If we have got any Chinese member among us, be proud because the country is fast forwarding with innovations. They board ten times as many engineers as Europeans for the same emolument. But in an attempt to make it ten times more affordable, they make products look like steel, act like glass.

[EEVblog]

I wish you success , with your next Video - presentation ,
the subject as "multimeters " its a very sensitive one .
And you do know that all ready , from the emails that you got from the pissed ones.. 

On the contrary, the great thing about having my own blog is that the only thing that matters is my own opinion!

Dave.

[saturation]

The German consumer product safety links I posted earlier, i.e. the links with the videos of DMM on fire, state that the target market of problem meters are consumers, at least in Germany.

In the USA, the most incompetent meters, the one's IMHO are likely to hurt the user at CAT II ratings, are the meters you find in hardware stores, and automotive parts stores, to be used by DIY types who are barely electronics literate.  I went looking for any safety data on DMM and consumers in the USA, and can find none.

However, the EU found enough fault in some cheap DMM to have them pulled from the EU market.

http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/dyna/rapex/rapex_archives_en.cfm

Search term as " multimeter."

I agree with Dave and Kyriakos - you have to draw the line somewhere.

A student can drink a few less beers or smoke less to save for a slightly better meter
A professional in a country like Greece or Poland (I lived there for 14 years) can save some money to get the best they can afford
You can buy something used to save a few dollars
Hacking a cheap meter would be a waste of time


I seriously doubt that consumers are a large group buying multimeters. Unless you have unlimited funds, most of us who need them will be trying to save money on what we buy but the equally important lesson in all of this is not to sacrifice safety for savings. We can't afford that.

[saturation]

Alas, per the EU rules, a class of CE markings offers no assurance of compliance with any standards since it can be legitimately self posted by the manufacturer.  The Chinese marking is whole other issue, also briefly discussed here:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_mark

there is something to be said for products that meet their specs only to pass testing and others that are made to be truly usable. I have had many of the cheap meters and they all failed in a short time. it could be that they would tell me that a circuit has 10 volts when it really has 100 because it is an unreliable instrument.

The chinese will and do put fake specs on products, didn't you here about the "C E" marking ? how many chinese manufacturers came up with a very similar making to put on their products, so similar that "CE" because confused with "C E" the same font and style was used unless you knew the difference you could not tell. the difference was that "C E" is the european compliance symbol and "CE" stands for (or so they say) china export, now wht would you put a china export symbol in the place of a certification symbol and make them almost identical but not enopugh for it to be illegal ? you know how many factories in China are called "england" "canada" etc ? so that the manufacturer can put on their products "made in england", I take any chinese manufacturer as a dihonest liar as default unless proven other wise, it is a real pity that european governments don't get their asses in gear and help manufacturing in europe thrive again !

i have a chinese made fan heater, I consider it lethal and will not let anyone but me use it. clearly it was made to justr pass import inspection assuming it got one. I expect it to fail horribly any day, but the chinese manufacturer does not care that his product may burn somebodies house down and kill their family

[Simon]

And how long should the humble multimeter be subject to such criticism? Rightfully till the end of the world.
@Simon: It is the evil world of outsourcing. Fluke, Agilent, Extech and probably all big manufacturers have manufacturing plants in China. Can you accept Agilent having the top of the line hand held multimeter outsourced to Malaysia. The results are obvious. And do not be confused by 'Made in Hong Kong' or 'Made in Taiwan' or 'Made in R.O.C.': they are all from the Chinese herd. We have got trampled over to such an extent that whenever I pull the remote display from the Fluke 233, people would exclaim 'look what the Chinese have managed!'
Actually, the Chinese people really manage to foster out of the box ideas and never seen before products. If we have got any Chinese member among us, be proud because the country is fast forwarding with innovations. They board ten times as many engineers as Europeans for the same emolument. But in an attempt to make it ten times more affordable, they make products look like steel, act like glass.

I'm not really concerned about where a product is made but it's quality (something that as a quality inspector i have to look at every day). You get good quality even from china if you pay the money, it is a combination of any company wanting to make as much money as possible and guy junk from china, you can go to a chinese manufacturer and ask for a good quality product, pay a good price and get a good product. But equally you can ask for a cheap item and you will get a cheap item but bad quality. I hate it when manufacturers and retailers chant about how they have the cheapest but best quality product because this is called BULLSHIT ! what I would hope is that crap qual;ity is not made and not accepted by any retailer/consumer but again it is about money. people as so short sighted. I think that today it is safe to say that as far as manufacturing goes 90% of products are made as throw away items, that £5 multimeter (versus a £30+), those £10 shoes (versus £35), I bought those £10 shoes and they lastest a matter of months, I not have apair of £35 shoes and they are still looking goo months later and my feet don't sweat in them because they are not made of plastic. People are so stupid ignorant and gullible, it is true that to some extent when it comes to brand names you pay a little more for the sake of the name. But it is also true that you get pretty much what you pay for unless you buy from ripoff retailers with a big name (like B&Q to name one). In today's day and age where there is a lot of cheap crap around companies cannot afford to charge more than something is worth. a little bit of common sense will get you quality at a reasonable price without getting burnt by either an overpriced unit or a heap of garbidge.

When I lived in Italy i worked for a man importing clothing from China/india, you know some of the shirts we got as samples had fabric so thin they came already ripped ?!

[Zad]

I just had a quick look around Ebay to see what was what. One of the first things I came across was (brace yourselves!) "Fluk" multimeters! I LOLed.

 

[Simon]

yes I've spotted those to but I'm not that stupid

[Kiriakos-GR]

Its all about Geography ..  

So I will say few words for my dot on the map.

Greece was always the path between Asia and Europe.
The Asian products are dominant in the Greek market, at the last 25 years.
They was called "economic solution" , and they still are.
The European electronic products , was the "good ones"  after the Japanese ones.
Famous American  products ,  just the simple hand tools , great quality long lasting ones.

Fluke has almost zero market share in Greece, even if it has three major representatives - distributors.  
  
The Greek technicians works mostly , with the most high priced Taiwanese DMMs ,
the ones that last in time , there is two three brands , that does reliable DMM.

I got the Fluke 87-5 , because it is True RMS, and looks solid ,
but the most important reason that I got it, was that I found it softly used,
in the half of the price, and a bit even less.

So its all about pricing , and marketing , and Geography .

Because of  " my " Fluke, I started exploring the company it self , and their practices.
Oh my , they have the most aggressive policy about sales ... they offer even gifts at their own salesman, Fluke bonus points system....  If this salesman sold a meter of 400$  he gets 400 points .
So in translation , they aggressively push the Fluke name , and top up their bonus basket.

Never seen another company who does multimeters to act that way.

And I am saying all this , because right now I am very pissed , with this tactics,
and I have all the rights to do so, as an customer and consumer.

But more than everything I am pissed because they had make some nice Velcro straps for the cables,
and they do not shell them  Internationally ..   Just 48 States ..

Ok then, keep your DMMs for your 48 States ..  

Totally stupid marketing, Instead of be friendly and wide open .
They do a great job , about protecting their own interests , But I have also to protect my health from such confusing and irritating tactics , and continue to do my shopping , in the Taiwanese liberal market.  

[Simon]

Kiriakos if your "pissed" it means you are drunk. I think you mean "pissed off" which means angry or anoyed about something 

[saturation]

More exploding MM:

The caption writes of problems with input protection:




CAT IV accident, caught on security cam.  Professionals should wear PPE for CAT III and above:

[Kiriakos-GR]

Kiriakos if your "pissed" it means you are drunk. I think you mean "pissed off" which means angry or anoyed about something  

If so, I choose the second ...    

I am an motorcycles driver all my life , and do not own a car, so drinking is out of the question.  


edit: Found the damn straps , the same as the Fluke ones, with out the badge..
15cm Cable Velcro Straps   Got 20 for 4 EUR  

[Pradipta]

Aaaaaaaaaa... ...I can't wait any longer for the multimeter shoutout...! And Dave, you have reviewed all of the Flukes except the 179 (and the 77 IV), the most affordable made in USA Fluke. That will close the chapter, at least for now.

[EEVblog]

And how long should the humble multimeter be subject to such criticism? Rightfully till the end of the world.
@Simon: It is the evil world of outsourcing. Fluke, Agilent, Extech and probably all big manufacturers have manufacturing plants in China. Can you accept Agilent having the top of the line hand held multimeter outsourced to Malaysia.

FYI, Agilent do not outsource anything to Malaysia. Their hand-held design team is based there and manufacturing is done in-house by Agilent.

Dave.

[PetrosA]

FYI, Agilent do not outsource anything to Malaysia. Their hand-held design team is based there and manufacturing is done in-house by Agilent.

Dave.

Dave, you have to admit that comparing the Amprobe clamp meters (now discontinued) to the Agilent clamp meters, it looks like someone's doing some outsourcing or serious copying... I don't know where the Amprobe ones were made.

http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?nid=-34618.920248.00&cc=US&lc=eng

http://www.tequipment.net/AmprobeACDC-3000.asp
http://www.tequipment.net/AmprobeACDC-620T.asp
http://www.tequipment.net/AmprobeACD-330T.asp

[saturation]

This is a common issue with ODM houses, they retain rights to the design and sell it freely to other companies, so one design can have multiple brands and multiple prices.  The big question is do they really differ?

In China, an equally endemic issue is pirating the design by the contracted manufacturer and the creation of near perfect counterfeit.  It should be a good topic for discussion with all types of gear.  How its could be done, e.g. Rigol orders 1000 DS1052E scopes from factory XYZ but XYZ engineers, knowing how popular the product is, makes 2000, fills Rigols order to satisfaction and bills Rigol for 1000.  It then sells the other 1000 on the Internet or the grey market; or it takes the design plans and goes to factory ABC and asks them to make it.  This is a common problem for iPods.

AFAIK, Fluke maybe the only one, not yet affected by this problem.



Amprobe [yellow] vs Agilent [orange]:



Tenma handheld scope, and the Uni-T scope:

FYI, Agilent do not outsource anything to Malaysia. Their hand-held design team is based there and manufacturing is done in-house by Agilent.

Dave.

Dave, you have to admit that comparing the Amprobe clamp meters (now discontinued) to the Agilent clamp meters, it looks like someone's doing some outsourcing or serious copying... I don't know where the Amprobe ones were made.

http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?nid=-34618.920248.00&cc=US&lc=eng

http://www.tequipment.net/AmprobeACDC-3000.asp
http://www.tequipment.net/AmprobeACDC-620T.asp
http://www.tequipment.net/AmprobeACD-330T.asp

[saturation]

Just an FYI, there are not the same by a long shot.  The problem is not racial, its about the development of their engineering talent and the quality of the workmanship.

HK and PRC are one in the same.  HK just reflects the management arm, most hard core manufacturing is done in PRC.

Taiwan is ROC, and until recently, both design and manufacturing was exclusively Taiwan.  PRC and ROC are theoretically enemies from history, but $$$ is making friends of these long term foes, with Taiwan sending manufacturing to PRC with management in ROC.

At this time, ROC is a 1st world country.  They have R&D houses in the USA. China is rated ~ 92/182 while Taiwan is 25th.  The US is #13 while Australia is #2, using the UN rating scale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#Countries_missing_from_latest_report


That said, Taiwanese products are usually high to highest design and manufacturing quality.

And how long should the humble multimeter be subject to such criticism? Rightfully till the end of the world.
@Simon: It is the evil world of outsourcing. Fluke, Agilent, Extech and probably all big manufacturers have manufacturing plants in China. Can you accept Agilent having the top of the line hand held multimeter outsourced to Malaysia. The results are obvious. And do not be confused by 'Made in Hong Kong' or 'Made in Taiwan' or 'Made in R.O.C.': they are all from the Chinese herd. We have got trampled over to such an extent that whenever I pull the remote display from the Fluke 233, people would exclaim 'look what the Chinese have managed!'
Actually, the Chinese people really manage to foster out of the box ideas and never seen before products. If we have got any Chinese member among us, be proud because the country is fast forwarding with innovations. They board ten times as many engineers as Europeans for the same emolument. But in an attempt to make it ten times more affordable, they make products look like steel, act like glass.

[Reuben]

This is a copy of a reply I posted on the fluke 117 review.
I have the 117 and like the non contact feature because I work with high voltage.

I also have a fluke 16 which is a continuation of the fluke 12. It measures temperature and uA as well as caps. I had the fluke 12 for 10 years which only cost me 100 in 1994. I fell in love with this meter immediately. It had low Z was small, rugged and had 4 push buttons. I found the low z great for many things including discharging capacitors and testing batteries and power supplies.

These low end meters had a little known feature which Dave would love. The fluke 16 still has it although i did not find it in the manual. I believe you use the range button when in diode mode. It has a latch open and a latch close to check a cable for shorts or breaks. If you hold the leads together and hit a button it will detect a momentary open, but has a display which shows up as —__ on the display. otherwise the display looks like —–. Like a logic transition. Correct me if wrong, but this is a feature not included in higher models, I believe.

Love the blog Dave keep it up. Electronics has been my passion for over 20 years.

Reuben

While I am on the topic of meters I love, I have an Ideal amp meter with a tight sight display. There is a little rubber boot over a second display in the end. This is great for high hanging wires. This meter has min max capacitance, frequency through the jaws and an analog bar graph. It also has a great back light and huge digits. Sorry fluke, but I like this better than yours especially at under 200.
It looks and feels “sexy” as Dave would say. I had it checked by a calibration lab and they said it was “spot on”.

More on ideal amp meter. I have had it for 4 years. I really like the canvas belt holster and it comes with wonderful probes which come apart to put a huge black alligator clamp on the black lead for one handed testing. It is also cat III and IV. Check it out .

I have been using ideal’s vibrating low impedance meter (wiggy} for about 6 years and you want to talk rugged? I dropped mine from 50 feet. It has a solenoid which vibrates and a analog meter with ever famous neon lamps. Strangely, works well to test unloaded frequency drives.

[saturation]

There's nothing like real world testing, to show what stuff can really do. 

This is a copy of a reply I posted on the fluke 117 review...
While I am on the topic of meters I love, I have an Ideal amp meter with a tight sight display.

[haglered]

This is the blog that introduced me to dave and this forum.

I was doing research until all hours on digital multimeters (after buying a cheapy) trying to learn how to use it.

I found it helpful and educational about what to expect from digital multimeters in general and what to look for when I buy a better one.

No flames here Dave.

[sonicj]

I also have a fluke 16 which is a continuation of the fluke 12. It measures temperature and uA as well as caps. I had the fluke 12 for 10 years which only cost me 100 in 1994. I fell in love with this meter immediately. It had low Z was small, rugged and had 4 push buttons. I found the low z great for many things including discharging capacitors and testing batteries and power supplies.

These low end meters had a little known feature which Dave would love. The fluke 16 still has it although i did not find it in the manual. I believe you use the range button when in diode mode. It has a latch open and a latch close to check a cable for shorts or breaks. If you hold the leads together and hit a button it will detect a momentary open, but has a display which shows up as —__ on the display. otherwise the display looks like —–. Like a logic transition. Correct me if wrong, but this is a feature not included in higher models, I believe.

i have a fluke 12 that was handed down to me 5 or 6 years ago. the buttons didn't work at first so i never bothered to learn most of the functions other than voltage and continuity. i had no idea it did the continuity break logging! aside from the lack of current measuring and some complications with the zebra connectors, its been a great first level troubleshooting meter. especially for free!
-sj

[vk3yedotcom]

Has any other EEVBlog episode been parodied?  (by another Dave - from a few days ago)

[jancumps]

Has any other EEVBlog episode been parodied?  (by another Dave - from a few days ago)

Where's the 26 minutes of extra waffle? 

[001]

Has any other EEVBlog episode been parodied?  (by another Dave - from a few days ago)

Awesome
And I can undenstand You oral  speaking (I can`t understand Dave`s english)