Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 2299235 times)

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Offline apis

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #225 on: July 01, 2015, 11:06:18 am »
For there example of 1.1V product voltage dropout under load, there is only about 12% of energy wasted in the battery for a 100mA constant current load.
Yup, open circuit voltage could be anything. Since their device can't be 100% efficient and they can't hope to get all of those remaining 12% there is no way to make this work in any meaningful way. It probably will reduce battery-life in most cases, if it's not a complete scam. :palm:

But I'm looking forward to be amazed! :popcorn:
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #226 on: July 01, 2015, 11:11:08 am »
Just by their adverts they are trying too hard and it's gimmicky.

Advertisement style usually reflects if the product will stand by its own or not.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #227 on: July 01, 2015, 12:52:46 pm »
But I'm looking forward to be amazed! :popcorn:

Yep, me too, always happy to admit I'm wrong, just show me the evidence.
Of course they will be able to find some products that are poorly designed with a high cutoff that might be wasting half the battery capacity, maybe even as much as 80% as they claim. But the demonstrably true fact that vast majority of products have cutout voltages of 1.1V or less means their device will get nowhere near their claims.
I'm completely baffled as to how they think they can hide or explain away this?
 

Offline apis

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #228 on: July 02, 2015, 02:21:42 am »
I'm completely baffled as to how they think they can hide or explain away this?
Maybe it's to late to back down now, having invested so much into marketing already. I'm a bit cynical now perhaps but I think they are just stalling, maybe they will do some more waffling after a while. To someone who doesn't know electronics it will be their word against your, and some people believe what they want to believe.

---
I don't know what's wrong with people but there is some interesting psychology going on in when it comes to swindlers.

There was this big scam here in Sweden a few years ago. An Italian guy called Andrea Rossi managed to bamboozle two tenured physics professors and a journalist at the largest technology newspaper here in Sweden into believing he had invented a cold-fusion device (e-cat) that could solve all the worlds energy problems.  ::)

No-one was allowed to test it at first, and then finally only with the guys own test equipment. Didn't matter that other physicists pointed out that if it worked the way they suggested, everyone monitoring the test would die from radiation poisoning the day after... :-DD

After more than a year another journalist finally decided to do some real work and quickly discovered the guy was a well known criminal in Italy and had done a similar scam in the 80:s when he claimed he could convert toxic waste into oil. He made a ton of money by taking care of other companies waste products. In the end it turned out he had just been dumping it. :palm:
 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #229 on: July 02, 2015, 08:40:36 pm »
...
They actually did admit that they are measuring the open circuit voltage of the battery!  :-DD  :palm:
Wow, just wow.

Yes but PhD's, and Patents...
:-)
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #230 on: July 02, 2015, 09:08:28 pm »
I'm thinking the plan is to keep piling the bull high until somebody like a director at Walmart signs up for ten million of them.

 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #231 on: July 03, 2015, 12:51:19 am »
I'm thinking the plan is to keep piling the bull high until somebody like a director at Walmart signs up for ten million of them.

Unfortunately for them, my local Google shows a page full of debunk....
There must be a name changing coming...

Quote from: cyborgar on hackaday: link=http://hackaday.com/2015/06/06/crowdfunding-follies-debunking-the-batteriser/
June 6, 2015 at 7:18 pm

Also another thing not noted here is that overdischarging batteries can cause them to leak because they corrode beyond their rated limits. Money saving and environmental friendliness ends when your device ends up ruined by leaked battery juice.

Anybody knows more about this?
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline apis

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #232 on: July 03, 2015, 04:17:31 pm »
Anybody knows more about this?
I've hear that before but don't really know much more. Wikipedia had this bit of information though:
Quote
The reason for leaks is that as batteries discharge — either through usage or gradual self-discharge — the chemistry of the cells changes and some hydrogen gas is generated. This out-gassing increases pressure in the battery. Eventually, the excess pressure either ruptures the insulating seals at the end of the battery, or the outer metal canister, or both.
If the batterizer is a small but otherwise ordinary boost converter it shouldn't be more of a problem than other devices with boost converters though.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 04:29:01 pm by apis »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #233 on: July 03, 2015, 04:26:00 pm »
Quote from: cyborgar
Also another thing not noted here is that overdischarging batteries can cause them to leak because they corrode beyond their rated limits. Money saving and environmental friendliness ends when your device ends up ruined by leaked battery juice.
Anybody knows more about this?
You never know, the Batterizer might down at 1.05V or something like that...
 

Offline moemoe

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #234 on: July 09, 2015, 05:31:45 pm »
There are a few issues you didn't mention.

As you have described, most devices will work down to 1.0-1.1v/cell. 

I just found out that my Sony universal remote control still works at 1.2V, but with miserable range. That's one point you didn't cover in your video, you only checked if there is still a signal, not but it's strength.

Normally, I can point the rc everywhere in the room and the devices still recieves the signal without any problems, at this voltage I had to point it directly onto the device I wanted to control.

But, as the Eneloops were in there fore probably more than two years, I doubt that the Batteriser would give any improvement, as the quiescent current would probably drain the battery much earlier. And, putting them in a charger every 2 years is not a big deal at all.
https://github.com/maugsburger/
Breadboard Adapters featured in EEVBlog #573 on Tindie
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #235 on: July 09, 2015, 07:27:14 pm »
But, as the Eneloops were in there fore probably more than two years, I doubt that the Batteriser would give any improvement, as the quiescent current would probably drain the battery much earlier.
Yep.

And, putting them in a charger every 2 years is not a big deal at all.
Well there's your problem!

Rechargeable batteries have a much higher self-discharge rate then ordinary alkalines. Using rechargeable batteries in remote control units isn't usually cost-effective (unless you're getting them for free or something...)
 

Offline rs20

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #236 on: July 09, 2015, 08:10:24 pm »
Rechargeable batteries have a much higher self-discharge rate then ordinary alkalines. Using rechargeable batteries in remote control units isn't usually cost-effective (unless you're getting them for free or something...)
But the cost of recharging them is practically zero????
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #237 on: July 09, 2015, 08:33:11 pm »
Rechargeable batteries have a much higher self-discharge rate then ordinary alkalines. Using rechargeable batteries in remote control units isn't usually cost-effective (unless you're getting them for free or something...)
But the cost of recharging them is practically zero????
But that's only one of the costs of using them

 

Offline HKJ

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #238 on: July 09, 2015, 08:43:15 pm »
And, putting them in a charger every 2 years is not a big deal at all.
Well there's your problem!

Rechargeable batteries have a much higher self-discharge rate then ordinary alkalines. Using rechargeable batteries in remote control units isn't usually cost-effective (unless you're getting them for free or something...)

The self discharge rate of "low self discharge" NiMH is not much worse than alkaline, eneloop can maintain a charge for 5 years.
How cost effective NiMH is can be discussed, one leaking alkaline and the NiMH might have been much cheaper.
 

Offline rs20

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #239 on: July 09, 2015, 10:12:41 pm »
But that's only one of the costs of using them
Yeah, thanks for listing the others. Stop being so difficult, troll.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #240 on: July 09, 2015, 10:42:25 pm »
But that's only one of the costs of using them
Yeah, thanks for listing the others. Stop being so difficult, troll.
Ummmm... how hard can it be to think of 'costs' when you're buying things? (Hint: The clue is in the verb).

Duracell/Energizer AA - easily under $1  (under 50 cents if you buy boxes of them)
Duracell/Eneloop rechargeable AA - $3 each
Decent battery charger: $10-$20 ??

So they cost 4-5 times less, they last twice as long in 'standby' devices, eg. remote controls, and you don't have any start-up costs (charger).

So how much is a free recharge really worth?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 10:50:54 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline rs20

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #241 on: July 09, 2015, 11:00:08 pm »
The savings are ostensibly/arguably environmental, and definitely convenience. I haven't had to buy a single battery for years, because I effectively have an infinite supply in my house, and I'm never eeking the last bit of charge out of a slightly dodgy remote. Especially true of my camera flash (granted, not the context that we're talking about but it illustrates my point well) -- I just charge my 4 eneloops before every trip. The fact that non-rechargeable would last twice as long is irrelevant because my rechargeables never run out. That ongoing convenience is easily worth the negligible initial outlay of $50 or so.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #242 on: July 09, 2015, 11:12:41 pm »
Especially true of my camera flash (granted, not the context that we're talking about but it illustrates my point well) -- I just charge my 4 eneloops before every trip.
No, it completely fails to illustrate the point.

Nobody's arguing that frequent-use items that use a lot of current are better off with rechargeable batteries. The point is that you'll be dead and buried long before 'practically zero' charging costs have recovered the cost of putting rechargeable batteries in something like a remote control.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #243 on: July 09, 2015, 11:13:59 pm »
How cost effective NiMH is can be discussed, one leaking alkaline and the NiMH might have been much cheaper.

http://www.duracell.com/en-us/guarantee

http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/no-leaks-guarantee
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #244 on: July 10, 2015, 12:06:49 am »
So wasn't the Batteriser Indiegogo going to be end of June?
 

Offline Bob F.

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #245 on: July 10, 2015, 12:13:21 am »
Site now says: Pre-Sale Coming Soon.  Batterisers are not yet available for purchase at this time. Sign up below to be invited to our early pre-sale event.


I wonder what made them change their mind...   8)
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #246 on: July 10, 2015, 12:36:49 am »
Site now says:

First line of site now says: "Most new batteries contain 1.5V of energy when first bought."



(The inventor)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 12:46:12 am by Fungus »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #247 on: July 10, 2015, 12:41:29 am »
They've got some new pics of it:

 

Offline HKJ

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #248 on: July 10, 2015, 12:48:24 am »
How cost effective NiMH is can be discussed, one leaking alkaline and the NiMH might have been much cheaper.

http://www.duracell.com/en-us/guarantee

http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/no-leaks-guarantee


That guarantee does not prevent the batteries from leaking:



You might sometimes, with some work, recover some of the cost from the battery manufacturer (If you use the right brand of batteries).
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #249 on: July 10, 2015, 01:10:13 am »
http://www.duracell.com/en-us/guarantee

http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/no-leaks-guarantee

That guarantee does not prevent the batteries from leaking:

(picture of leaking batteries with very clear "made in China" markings removed)

You might sometimes, with some work, recover some of the cost from the battery manufacturer

Some?

"Duracell guarantees its batteries against defects in materials and workmanship. Should any device be damaged due to a battery defect, we will repair or replace it at our option."

"Energizer will repair or replace, at our option, any device damaged by leakage from Energizer® MAX® AA/AAA Alkaline batteries"

(If you use the right brand of batteries).
You mean the brands I've been mentioning in this thread?
 


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