Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 2505393 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline firewalker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2356
  • Country: gr
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6950 on: December 05, 2016, 10:08:44 pm »
AAA version was mentioned before by someone as received.

Alexander.
Become a realist, stay a dreamer.

 
The following users thanked this post: Macbeth

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 32476
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6951 on: December 05, 2016, 11:43:47 pm »
But IMHO this is serious, they are perfectly capable of ruining Dave's reputation if he doesn't take any countermeasures.
:-DD
Yeah Dave's Fine Art Career is totally over...  :-DD

Performing Arts thank you very much!
 
The following users thanked this post: ccs46

Offline Smokey

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1635
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6952 on: December 06, 2016, 03:27:01 am »
Yeah Dave's Fine Art Career is totally over...  :-DD
[/quote]

Performing Arts thank you very much!
[/quote]

Which one? 
Please say interpretive dance....
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 06:42:44 am by Smokey »
 

Offline jonovid

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 942
  • Country: au
    • JONOVID
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6953 on: December 06, 2016, 03:51:53 am »
-old appliances may not have this,  I find most battery powered household appliances nowadays come with their own built in Batteriser.
its called a input voltage regulator.  ;D
Hobbyist with a basic knowledge of electronics
 

Offline djos

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 991
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6954 on: December 06, 2016, 03:58:06 am »
-old appliances may not have this,  I find most battery powered household appliances nowadays come with their own built in Batteriser.
its called a input voltage regulator.  ;D

Lol, I was just thinking exactly that!
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Visit my Tindie store for Tandy 1000 Adapters for EX, HX, SX, SL, TX & TL etc
 

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 10521
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6955 on: December 06, 2016, 04:56:11 am »
That just means a reduced potential market for Batteroo sleeves to be an effective product.  It also means that testing in products is going to be a hit and miss affair - unless it is known if the device has a built in boost circuit or not.

The state of battery chemistry is still the wild card though.
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 32476
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6956 on: December 06, 2016, 06:30:08 am »
Batteriser instruction sheet...


 :palm:
Even their instruction sheet shows they have no clue what they are talking about.
OK, so they now recognise the difference between active (boost converter) and "passive" loads, great.
They then proceed to extol the advantages of the Batteriser with active load devices.
Then they proceed to tell you about passive load devices and then use the example of a LED flashlight with "constant current" circuitry as an example of when the Batteriser may not be of any use and is not recommended!
The flashlight with the constant current circuitry is an active load device!  :palm:
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 32476
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6957 on: December 06, 2016, 06:36:30 am »
There, I fixed it for them.
 

Online Ice-Tea

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2236
  • Country: be
    • Freelance Hardware Engineer
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6958 on: December 06, 2016, 07:16:07 am »
In all honnesty, that's not how I read that leaflet. Their definition seems more like:

- Active devices: stuff that has an UVLO but no boost
- Passive devices: well, dumb as a brick.
- LED torches: active devices with a boost.

Offline Koen

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 527
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6959 on: December 06, 2016, 12:22:34 pm »
Yeah, it's a third section/paragraph. A title would have made it clearer.
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 32476
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6960 on: December 06, 2016, 12:55:01 pm »
In all honnesty, that's not how I read that leaflet. Their definition seems more like:
- Active devices: stuff that has an UVLO but no boost
- Passive devices: well, dumb as a brick.
- LED torches: active devices with a boost.

Active devices means basically all products that have a boost converter or any form of constant current or constant power operation. Everyone knows this, they know this.
Even if a product doesn't contain an actual boost converter and it's just linear reg for example, then that's still active circuitry because it's constant current consumption just like they are using the LED torch as an example. In that case it means they are admitting that the Batteriser is useless on the majority of products around today (that have boost/buck/CC converters and/or constant power loads, i.e. everything except purely dumb devices who operation changes with battery voltage)
They are very specifically mentioning LED torches because they know this will be a classic test.

The passive load argument is the only potential one the Batteriser product has going for it. And this has been said on here since day 1.
The Batteriser on these product might give shorter life, but it will ensure the clapping monkey keeps clapping at full tilt until it suddenly dies, and some people might find this a useful feature. For all other modern products with battery guages it will be frustrating as buggery, and likely lead to a shorter life to boot.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 01:01:12 pm by EEVblog »
 

Online McBryce

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1907
  • Country: de
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6961 on: December 06, 2016, 12:59:25 pm »
i.e. everything except purely dumb devices who operation changes with battery voltage)

So basically, just the monkey. :)

McBryce.
 

Offline dcac

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 266
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6962 on: December 06, 2016, 01:56:24 pm »
And this has been said on here since day 1.

This crazy circus seriously seems to be running round in circles.

And how many deadlines have they missed now, 5 or 6? I've lost count.
 

Offline ccs46

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 153
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6963 on: December 06, 2016, 01:57:38 pm »
Do you still have probes Dave? That way we can do some official testing on him?
Normal people... believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet. - Scott Adams
 

Offline Barny

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 294
  • Country: at
  • I'm from Austria, not Australia ;)
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6964 on: December 06, 2016, 02:04:13 pm »
i.e. everything except purely dumb devices who operation changes with battery voltage)

So basically, just the monkey. :)

McBryce.
Doesn't it draw more then 500mA?
(At least when the hands get blocked)
 

Offline Wytnucls

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2987
  • Country: be
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6965 on: December 06, 2016, 02:08:59 pm »
I have an old Garmin GPS (GPS95XL) that could benefit from sleeves on its 4 AA batteries, assuming 300mA is deliverable.
I don't expect a major improvement, but some testing might be enlightening.
The AA cells are tightly squeezed in their holder and may not accommodate any extra battery height.

Tested with power supply:
@6.0V 260mA (1.6W)
@4.4V 370mA  (500mA with backlight)
@4.3V Battery warning
@3.4V 500mA
@3.3V Cut Off

 https://www.manualslib.com/manual/56225/Garmin-Gps-95-Xl.html
 

Offline BoomBrush

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 29
  • Country: au
  • Hobbyist
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6966 on: December 06, 2016, 02:48:03 pm »
Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but will these "Batterisers" be able to output the kind of current needed by some appliances? They look pretty small, seems like the efficiency would hit the fan if you tried to draw high current from it. I don't mean when the battery has tiny charge in it, I mean a full battery. If I had a full battery, wouldn't drawing 2 amps from the "Batteriser" result in a faster depletion of battery life due to efficiency?

I bought one of those generic DC-DC buck/boost converters recently from ebay, now granted they are far more complicated than a batteriser would be, but they draw an idle current of 18mA. The batterisers might only have an idle current of a few microamps, but it's still a consideration. As I said before, theres also the problem of efficiency. If I draw 2 amps from the batteriser, how much would be drawn from the battery? 2.1A? 2.3A? Doesn't seem like a very "energy saving" concept. And wouldn't this problem gets worse the more current you draw? Keep in mind, I'm not talking about an almost dead battery, I'm talking about taking power out of the batteriser with a full battery.

I did a quick test and stole some AA batteries from my mums keyboard, I got no idea what charge is in them. About 1.5v open circuit, about 2.9A short circuit current. They seem pretty full. Let's say I threw a pair of batterisers on it: What's the short circuit current now? What if my "robot toy" requires 1.5A of current, and the max the batteriser outputs is 1A? I know 2.9A is pretty unrealistic, but I think I have illustrated my thoughts well enough for that to be negated.

My final comment: The implementation chosen seems to be a disaster due to losses in efficiency, no load power consumption and a current limit.

I looked at their website to see the prices. 26.85aud for only 8? I might as well buy a pile of rechargeables! Theres no way these things could ever give a major quantity of improvement but even if they did, is it really worth $27 bucks? The batteries were gonna die eventually. These are only ever useful in the long, long run. And in the long run, you might as well be using rechargeables.
 

Offline CJay

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3803
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6967 on: December 06, 2016, 03:04:30 pm »
I looked at their website to see the prices. 26.85aud for only 8? I might as well buy a pile of rechargeables! Theres no way these things could ever give a major quantity of improvement but even if they did, is it really worth $27 bucks? The batteries were gonna die eventually. These are only ever useful in the long, long run. And in the long run, you might as well be using rechargeables.

My thought exactly, I can lay hands on decent 2400mAH AA NiMH cells in packs of four for £3, a charger with a good reputation was £12 and it charges AAA, AA, C D and 9V cells/batteries.

Chances are I'd wreck a batteriseroo with a leaking cell or someone (probably me, it's an age thing) would forget they were fitted and they'd end up being given or thrown away with cells or equipment.

Nice niche product idea, probably useless for the vast majority of my needs, let's face it, if there were a market for it 'Big Battery' would have been all over it, just look at the battery market now, premium prices for Lithium, premium prices for cells made with 'recycled' cells, ready to use rechargeables etc. etc, an edge given by a product incorporating a boost converter would have been jumped on if it were useful, they'd have gone as far as making the cell slightly shorter to accommodate the boost and still have it fit a standard cell holder.



 

Offline lpickup

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 98
  • Country: us
  • Uncle Bobby Dazzler
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6968 on: December 06, 2016, 04:13:57 pm »
They are very specifically mentioning LED torches [ed: won't work] because they know this will be a classic test.

Which is ironic, because as Wayne showed us, the current limit of the Batteriser will actually cause the flashlight (torch) to run at a (perhaps imperceptibly) dimmer level and it WILL actually last longer.
 

Offline lpickup

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 98
  • Country: us
  • Uncle Bobby Dazzler
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6969 on: December 06, 2016, 04:15:03 pm »
So basically, just the monkey. :)

Don't forget about the butterfly
 

Offline drussell

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1766
  • Country: ca
  • Hardcore Geek
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6970 on: December 06, 2016, 05:14:42 pm »
I have an old Garmin GPS (GPS95XL) that could benefit from sleeves on its 4 AA batteries, assuming 300mA is deliverable.
...
Tested with power supply:
@6.0V 260mA (1.6W)
@4.4V 370mA  (500mA with backlight)
@4.3V Battery warning
@3.4V 500mA
@3.3V Cut Off

Uhhh...  No, those results looks like it already has boost circuitry in it.  It is drawing more current as the voltage drops because it is using that extra current at that voltage to make up the total power it needs to operate.

Adding another boost converter in there will only shorten the battery life due to the redundant converter(s) (in)efficiency siphoning off a little more of the total power available in the cells as you use it.  You are adding four more unnecessary boost converters in series with the one inside the GPS that is actually doing something useful already. 

You would be adding 4 X whatever Batteroo's power loss is and I highly doubt that their "generic application" boost converter is 4 X as efficient as the "purpose built" one already in the GPS. 

They DO have an interesting grasp on mathematics, don't they?  :)

« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 05:20:35 pm by drussell »
 

Offline drussell

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1766
  • Country: ca
  • Hardcore Geek
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6971 on: December 06, 2016, 05:45:29 pm »
Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but will these "Batterisers" be able to output the kind of current needed by some appliances?

No, they will not.  They were marketed as such but I find it highly unlikely that they will be even close.

Quote
They look pretty small, seems like the efficiency would hit the fan if you tried to draw high current from it. I don't mean when the battery has tiny charge in it, I mean a full battery. If I had a full battery, wouldn't drawing 2 amps from the "Batteriser" result in a faster depletion of battery life due to efficiency?

Yes...   Indeed

Quote
The batterisers might only have an idle current of a few microamps, but it's still a consideration. As I said before, theres also the problem of efficiency. If I draw 2 amps from the batteriser, how much would be drawn from the battery? 2.1A? 2.3A?

Yes...  More current would be drawn.  How much more at various currents we don't know yet.

We can make educated guesses that are likely very close but Bateroo will say:
"Invalid!  that is not our magical chip!  Invalid!  INVALID!!!"  :palm:

Quote
Doesn't seem like a very "energy saving" concept. And wouldn't this problem gets worse the more current you draw?

Yes... Indeed!
Well, there is usually a sweet-spot in the middle somewhere where the efficiency is highest but it is still < 100%.

Quote
Keep in mind, I'm not talking about an almost dead battery, I'm talking about taking power out of the batteriser with a full battery.

It will always use up some extra power, regardless of the state of charge of the cell or the current drawn.

Quote
They seem pretty full. Let's say I threw a pair of batterisers on it: What's the short circuit current now? What if my "robot toy" requires 1.5A of current, and the max the batteriser outputs is 1A? I know 2.9A is pretty unrealistic, but I think I have illustrated my thoughts well enough for that to be negated.

Again, while they were marketed as being able to supply "as much current as the battery can deliver" that is demonstrably hogwash.

Quote
My final comment: The implementation chosen seems to be a disaster due to losses in efficiency, no load power consumption and a current limit.

Yes...  Indeed!

Quote
I looked at their website to see the prices. 26.85aud for only 8? I might as well buy a pile of rechargeables!

Yes...  Indeed!

Quote
Theres no way these things could ever give a major quantity of improvement but even if they did, is it really worth $27 bucks?

Highly unlikely.

Quote
The batteries were gonna die eventually. These are only ever useful in the long, long run. And in the long run, you might as well be using rechargeables.

For the vast majority of devices they are not useful even in the long, long, long run.

My thought exactly, I can lay hands on decent 2400mAH AA NiMH cells in packs of four for £3, a charger with a good reputation was £12 and it charges AAA, AA, C D and 9V cells/batteries.

That is a MUCH better idea.

All of these points have been thoroughly discussed MANY times before in this thread but it provides a nice summary.  :)

« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 05:53:01 pm by drussell »
 

Offline Wytnucls

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2987
  • Country: be
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6972 on: December 06, 2016, 05:51:36 pm »
I have an old Garmin GPS (GPS95XL) that could benefit from sleeves on its 4 AA batteries, assuming 300mA is deliverable.
...
Tested with power supply:
@6.0V 260mA (1.6W)
@4.4V 370mA  (500mA with backlight)
@4.3V Battery warning
@3.4V 500mA
@3.3V Cut Off

Uhhh...  No, those results looks like it already has boost circuitry in it.  It is drawing more current as the voltage drops because it is using that extra current at that voltage to make up the total power it needs to operate.

Adding another boost converter in there will only shorten the battery life due to the redundant converter(s) (in)efficiency siphoning off a little more of the total power available in the cells as you use it.  You are adding four more unnecessary boost converters in series with the one inside the GPS that is actually doing something useful already. 

You would be adding 4 X whatever Batteroo's power loss is and I highly doubt that their "generic application" boost converter is 4 X as efficient as the "purpose built" one already in the GPS. 

They DO have an interesting grasp on mathematics, don't they?  :)
Yes, come to think of it, it is definitely an active load device operating at constant power (1.6W). As you said, the sleeves most probably will make things worse.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 05:55:58 pm by Wytnucls »
 

Offline lpickup

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 98
  • Country: us
  • Uncle Bobby Dazzler
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6973 on: December 06, 2016, 06:00:43 pm »
Yes, come to think of it, it is definitely an active load device operating at constant power (1.6W). As you said, the sleeves most probably will make things worse.
Unless you consider the end of the test as the moment you get the battery warning (like the Batteroo Bros did and convinced UL of).
 

Offline Wytnucls

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2987
  • Country: be
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #6974 on: December 06, 2016, 06:32:56 pm »
Touché!

According to the power curve for the Duracell alkaline AA, I should get about 5 hours of use, which, from memory, seems about right.
Garmin doesn't publish the figure.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf