Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 2322618 times)

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Offline StillTrying

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7175 on: December 14, 2016, 03:23:21 am »
"There are more than eight 0.1 volt steps between 0.6 and 1.5 volts, so, in grossly simplified terms, the Batteriser can extend operational battery life somewhere around a factor of eight."

Well that's me convinced. :o

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7176 on: December 14, 2016, 04:01:23 am »
"There are more than eight 0.1 volt steps between 0.6 and 1.5 volts, so, in grossly simplified terms, the Batteriser can extend operational battery life somewhere around a factor of eight."
Well that's me convinced. :o
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html

Is that from back when they were saying that products typically drop out around 1.4V?

Ah, the good old days when that was in their patent
oops, it still is  :-DD
https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943
No less than 6 times  :palm:

I'm still convinced that at the time they did the Patent and the initial IGG they were so clueless about batteries that they really did think that measuring the open circuit voltage was the correct way to do it   :palm:

Then after a few months they changed all their website marketing to 1.3V
And then when we still called them out on that BS, they finally admitted they were measuring the open circuit battery voltage so ner ner ner ner ner.
That was like extracting teeth.

After this point their focus has been on how they can still weasle their way out of all and/or try to justify all the claims they made, and it's been one of the most technically embarrassing endeavours in recent memory, hence why everyone thinks this is great entertainment!


Now they have changed their official x8 claim to "significantly", but still claim only 20% of a battery is used in a typical product (and they add no caveats to that). And after they shipped is now this "active" and "passive" device weaselling.

I wish we had a concise list of all the changes and backpedalled in chronological order Batteroo have made of the last year and half. It's all in this thread, but it's a massive thread.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 04:11:45 am by EEVblog »
 
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Offline samgab

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7177 on: December 14, 2016, 04:27:32 am »
am i the only one who sees aproblem with that ? the battery gauge now reads 100% .. how will i know when the battery will get so low the batpoo will cut out ? i hope it has a proportional scaled output voltage so that the gauge in my Mac can accurately show how far from empty the batpoo+battery is or else my keyboard may suddenl
No it doesn't, and it's the biggest "gotcha" with the Batteriser that not many people talk about, certainly not Batteroo. The Batteriser renders the battery gauge on every product useless.
i smell trouble.... expect lots of people complaining it cuts out 'all of a sudden' ... it showed 100% 2 minutes ago and now it is empty ....

Yep, people will throw it out instantly in disgust. That one fact alone is enough to sink the longevity and mass appeal of the product even if it met it's demonstrably untrue performance claims.
At the very least it should come with a warning saying it will render your battery gauge inoperative. all it needs is for someone to use it in a critical product and then they'll get their arse sued.

Of course one major issue with 9V batteroo's when they eventually come out has been mentioned already, but it bears repeating: One main critical use of 9V batteries is smoke alarms/smoke detectors. If a typical non-EE type person puts a 9V batteroo on a battery in a smoke alarm, they will no longer be likely to get an extended period of low battery warning alerts, which has been carefully designed into all smoke alarms and the like. The battery will die without giving much - if any - warning, and houses could burn down and lives of families lost or endangered as a result. There are probably other critical items that run on AA or AAA cells also.
 

Offline Luminax

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7178 on: December 14, 2016, 04:34:47 am »
I remember learning about batteries and internal resistances, open circuit vs on-load voltage etc back in Circuit Theory II or thereabout...
What's the odds of a University not teaching about those in electronics engineering course?

I think Boob and Pranky is what we can call an "MBA Engineer"

regardless, making a chronological event view of this whole "Batteroo Saga" is kinda interesting... wonder if I have the time... hmmm
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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7179 on: December 14, 2016, 05:34:10 am »
I have to reply to this (and it was in the IGG comments)



What an utterly clueless comment. My very first video on Batteriser made it very clear that I (nor anyone else for that matter) thinks the Batteriser "doesn't work".
I put it here in big bold font, but will repeat it:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1077482/?topicseen#msg1077482

There isn't a single engineer on the planet that even remotely doubts the Batteriser will "work" as a boost converter and give you 1.5V output from a "dead" or "used" battery.
 

Offline quad

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7180 on: December 14, 2016, 05:43:21 am »
Maybe they don't have many AAA?



They are really killing themselves on postage by posting out partial orders?

Not to mention the 9V versions they need to post out to everyone!!
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 05:52:28 am by quad »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7181 on: December 14, 2016, 05:46:50 am »
They can avoid this by saying not to use them on metered devices like they did with LED lights.

Yes, but they're not saying that, are they?
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7182 on: December 14, 2016, 05:49:34 am »
There isn't a single engineer on the planet that even remotely doubts the Batteriser will "work" as a boost converter and give you 1.5V output from a "dead" or "used" battery.

Quoted for extra truthy redness in the forum.
 

Offline ez24

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7183 on: December 14, 2016, 05:57:38 am »
They can avoid this by saying not to use them on metered devices like they did with LED lights.

Yes, but they're not saying that, are they?

I meant they will.  Also there will be a warning about not using them in tight places.   If they give enough warnings they may end up working only in butterflies, which I think has been the only successful use so far.  This is really funny.  Think of it, the only reported successful test so far has been with sex toys!  After all there is "riser" in Batteriser.

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7184 on: December 14, 2016, 06:29:12 am »
Not to mention the 9V versions they need to post out to everyone!!

I doubt people will get those promised 9V Batterisers. They can't afford to make good on that promise.
 

Offline quad

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7185 on: December 14, 2016, 06:32:00 am »
I noticed something interesting in the JSON data for the IGG comments.

https://www.indiegogo.com/private_api/campaigns/batteroo-extend-battery-life-significantly/comments?page=1

At the very bottom:

"previous":null,"next":2,"current":1,"per_page":10,"count":1071,"pages":108

It only says 1071 comments. But on the page says 1433 comments.

Where are the other 362 comments?

Or is it just some IGG system thing?
 

Offline ez24

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7186 on: December 14, 2016, 06:45:16 am »

Where are the other 362 comments?


Deleted ie in never never land
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Offline Luminax

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7187 on: December 14, 2016, 06:57:38 am »
I noticed something interesting in the JSON data for the IGG comments.

https://www.indiegogo.com/private_api/campaigns/batteroo-extend-battery-life-significantly/comments?page=1

At the very bottom:

"previous":null,"next":2,"current":1,"per_page":10,"count":1071,"pages":108

It only says 1071 comments. But on the page says 1433 comments.

Where are the other 362 comments?

Or is it just some IGG system thing?

25% comments disappearing...
I could've sworn there are more that disappeared... like 800% more  :-DD
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Online FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7188 on: December 14, 2016, 07:27:47 am »
There isn't a single engineer on the planet that even remotely doubts the Batteriser will "work" as a boost converter and give you 1.5V output from a "dead" or "used" battery.

Well, I doubt it now, after the Indiegogo comment from one backer, that the voltage indicator on the Apple keyboard went from 39% to 87%, assuming 39% is still at a reasonable level above 1V (because otherwise the percentage would be wrong, because of the time left at this voltage), which is fine for many boosters (many can start from 0.9V and work below once running) and 100% is 1.5V or higher (because I would expect the meter to show 100% with fresh batteries). I have a Mac, so I could even use such a keyboard. Found a seller in Germany for cheap (EUR 40), well'll see.

Dave, if you have access to a Mac somewhere and if you want one, I can forward the keyboard to you for testing (I guess you will get a sleeve sooner or later). You could do a Garmin-GPS like test, but more professional, with multiple multimeters, one for the battery terminal voltage, one for the voltage after the terminal and one for the current: A servo motor which hits a key every some seconds, then measure the time until it dies. All automated by a simple Python script on a Raspberry Pi (with the help of the Raspberry Pi2/3 logging platform for Voltnuts). The servo can be controlled from the Raspberry Pi as well, without any additional hardware, as I demonstrated. Or maybe better, use an Arduino for controlling the servo and then use something like Processing to send commands to the servo, read the multimeters, create a nice diagram and detect the key presses. Would be a fun weekend project to program and setup.
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7189 on: December 14, 2016, 08:13:30 am »
I think there is an element of confirmation bias and to a lesser degree brand loyalty when it comes to some (not all) of those who "invested" in Batteriser through IGG and I put Wayne firmly in that category. In some ways he isn't a stupid man and I think he knows what the Batteriser can and can't do and what its limitations are in terms of applications. However I think he's also the kind of person who has a very hard time admitting when he's wrong or when he has been duped (after all, no one wants to be wrong or be made to look a fool).

Wayne can rant and rave, call people tossers and trolls all he likes and as someone who has studied a little human psychology in the past, I can bet that it makes him feel good having the "last word" from behind his keyboard. The users and content on this forum obviously bother him, no matter how much he tries to put on a brave face and ignore us. But as we all know, this isn't anything personal against Wayne (even though he is taking it personally), it's all about the Batteriser and Roohparvar's outrages lies claims.
 

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7190 on: December 14, 2016, 08:48:53 am »
I noticed something interesting in the JSON data for the IGG comments.
It only says 1071 comments. But on the page says 1433 comments.
Where are the other 362 comments?
Or is it just some IGG system thing?

It has been well documented here (with screen captures) that Batteroo have been deleting IGG comments.
Same on Facebook (where they also ban people) and Youtube.
 

Offline quad

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7191 on: December 14, 2016, 12:55:08 pm »
362 seemed a bit high, even for Batteroo (25% of comments).

I think IGG doesn't count replies to comments as comments in the JSON total, but they count in the IGG total.

I'm drifting us a bit off topic now though, back to "hurry up and wait" for developments in the story
 

Offline Blocco

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7192 on: December 14, 2016, 03:34:00 pm »
Two months have passed since the last IGG update and the start of shipping .... how time flies. They've certainly faced some obstacles along the way; I heard that shipping a Batterooooo is more challenging, at times than shipping an iPhone!

I guess all the recipients must be "enjoying" their Batterooos so much that they can't find the time to tell the rest of the world just how this "game changing" technology has improved their lives, and not to mention the "lasting positive change on our environment". It is a very dark day for "big battery".  :-DD


Nearly forgot, although it has been mentioned before, don't forget Bob's pledge from 11 months ago:

"While you are waiting for delivery of your Batterisers, I also want to inform you that our engineering team has made a great deal of progress developing a Batteriser for 9 volt batteries.   As a token of our appreciation for your support, we have decided to send every single one of our Indiegogo backers a free 9 Volt Batteriser. The expected release of the 9v Batteriser will be in 2016, and proudly, our Indiegogo supporters will be the very first to enjoy it. "

Enjoy it? Enjoy it? I didn't think it possible but these crazy guys have taken 9V battery enjoyment to another level!
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 03:47:21 pm by Blocco »
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7193 on: December 14, 2016, 03:35:45 pm »
I remember learning about batteries and internal resistances, open circuit vs on-load voltage etc back in Circuit Theory II or thereabout...
What's the odds of a University not teaching about those in electronics engineering course?

They where teaching that in my secondary school physics classes when I was about 14, which was in the mid 1970s. If one needs to wait nowadays until a 2nd level university course to learn that, then the debate about whether education has dumbed down is over.
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Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7194 on: December 14, 2016, 03:53:41 pm »
There isn't a single engineer on the planet that even remotely doubts the Batteriser will "work" as a boost converter and give you 1.5V output from a "dead" or "used" battery.

Well, I doubt it now, after the Indiegogo comment from one backer, that the voltage indicator on the Apple keyboard went from 39% to 87%, assuming 39% is still at a reasonable level above 1V (because otherwise the percentage would be wrong, because of the time left at this voltage), which is fine for many boosters (many can start from 0.9V and work below once running) and 100% is 1.5V or higher (because I would expect the meter to show 100% with fresh batteries). I have a Mac, so I could even use such a keyboard. Found a seller in Germany for cheap (EUR 40), well'll see.

Dave, if you have access to a Mac somewhere and if you want one, I can forward the keyboard to you for testing (I guess you will get a sleeve sooner or later). You could do a Garmin-GPS like test, but more professional, with multiple multimeters, one for the battery terminal voltage, one for the voltage after the terminal and one for the current: A servo motor which hits a key every some seconds, then measure the time until it dies. All automated by a simple Python script on a Raspberry Pi (with the help of the Raspberry Pi2/3 logging platform for Voltnuts). The servo can be controlled from the Raspberry Pi as well, without any additional hardware, as I demonstrated. Or maybe better, use an Arduino for controlling the servo and then use something like Processing to send commands to the servo, read the multimeters, create a nice diagram and detect the key presses. Would be a fun weekend project to program and setup.

Just one comment here. Fresh batteries typically have a voltage in the 1.6-1.62 V range, not 1.5 V. I would expect the battery indicator to show 100% at 1.6 V, not at 1.5 V.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7195 on: December 14, 2016, 05:00:40 pm »
Just one comment here. Fresh batteries typically have a voltage in the 1.6-1.62 V range

Not when they're under load inside a device.
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7196 on: December 14, 2016, 05:04:01 pm »
Just one comment here. Fresh batteries typically have a voltage in the 1.6-1.62 V range

Not when they're under load inside a device.

Depends on the load. In this context we're talking about the Apple keyboard (20-50 mA?), it shouldn't drop that much. I'm not sure how the indicator would handle fully charged rechargeable NiMH cells, as they barely even reach 1.5 V (more like 1.45 V). Don't have much experience with alkaline/NiMH cells together with precise (0-100%) battery indicators.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 05:49:09 pm by TheAmmoniacal »
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7197 on: December 14, 2016, 06:23:27 pm »
Depends on the load. In this context we're talking about the Apple keyboard (20-50 mA?), it shouldn't drop that much.

~200uA at idle, pulses at 3-4mA when it's transmitting after a keypress (with fresh out of the box batteries) - just measured it on the very keyboard I'm typing on. I suspect that it's got an even lower sleep mode but I'm not sitting here for 30 minutes holding the batteries in with a pair of probes to find out.
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Offline lpickup

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7198 on: December 14, 2016, 06:52:34 pm »
but I'm not sitting here for 30 minutes holding the batteries in with a pair of probes to find out.

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Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7199 on: December 14, 2016, 08:05:23 pm »
They can avoid this by saying not to use them on metered devices like they did with LED lights.

Yes, but they're not saying that, are they?

I meant they will.  Also there will be a warning about not using them in tight places.   If they give enough warnings they may end up working only in butterflies, which I think has been the only successful use so far.  This is really funny.  Think of it, the only reported successful test so far has been with sex toys!  After all there is "riser" in Batteriser.

With many of those"devices" the battery compartment is rather touchy about the cell manufacturers they will take. Some will not take a Duracell, as they are just a tiny bit too long, and the pip on the end of the cell is not long enough to touch the contact in the positive side. Others are too thick to fit in there as well and have the cover close properly. Funny enough the cells that fit the best are the cheap and nasty ones, which are also the lightest ones, as they are mostly made with sawdust as filler as opposed to actual active material.
 


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