Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 2347098 times)

0 Members and 10 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline BradC

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1649
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7450 on: December 21, 2016, 02:14:19 am »
I've just found the perfect application for these devices :
http://sundown.me.uk/technology/mercedes-aa-class.mp4
 

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 9414
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7451 on: December 21, 2016, 02:36:23 am »
Called it...

Perhaps my biggest concern is that we may spend countless hours debating the "Why's" and "Wherefore's" of a photo such as this - and that the credibility of the Engineering fraternity as a whole is going to be defined by these types of discussion.

By casting a few morsels before the ravenous hoard and letting them go into a feeding frenzy, the apparent desperation to 'attack' is going to become the definitive measure of the Engineering position - at least as far as the public perception is concerned.  And that is all the Batteroo boys would need to do....


It may well be that they do have a product and, if so, we are already making it easier for them to release it...

1. Delays.
Once the product is actually released, then the delays will be summarily forgotten by those who have been waiting - they will be so happy to have received them!  The response from the 'faithful' will be something along the lines of "Oh, you poor little engineers.  You said there was no product - but here it is!".  Bob and Co might come up with a couple of more 'reasons' for the delays, but it won't matter.  The punters couldn't care less - they will have their sleeves.


2. Function.
Engineers (and others) have been critical of the fact that the Batteroo sleeves will not perform as (originally) advertised - but the perception has been that the Engineers are saying they will not work at all.  This is clealry an incorrect perception that only needs a sleeve to do what is expected by the customer for 60 seconds (or even less) for the howls of denigration to flow like a Tsunami.  Batteroo has won!  Forget the fact that it might cease to do so in the second minute.

Engineers have also been apprehensive about higher current capability from the beginning, but since the performance claims have been dialled back, there is less strength in that argument.


These functional failings may well have been problems that Batteroo have been trying to address, but without success - something which would be no surprise to us.  However, to successfully release the product, then they would need to do two things - manage expectations and discredit the critics.

Managing expectations has been easy.  They have simply adjusted their claims to something more modest - without saying the Engineering critics were right.  The average punter will either not have noticed and/or will see that as something they feel is more 'real'.  Remember, even some of the fanboys considered the Batteriser worth having even if it was only a quarter as good.
(Guess who was one of them.)
Quote
Discrediting the critics is going to be really simple.  The more we carry on about a range of issues, the more high profile the banner we are holding.  All Bob has to do is produce a product that does something and we will have given him the perfect distraction.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 02:40:31 am by Brumby »
 

Offline orion242

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 744
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7452 on: December 21, 2016, 03:47:24 am »
https://youtu.be/1XRQXF6IRLA?t=6m16s

"so you know free energy well.  you know what?  the guy knows what he is doing ok"

I think that sums this up well.
 

Offline AlxDroidDev

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 471
  • Country: br
    • Arduino Web Brasil
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7453 on: December 21, 2016, 03:54:44 am »
The video camera dave got on Mailbag in video #592 uses 3xAAA batteries. If Dave still has it, it might be a good test for the sleeves he's got in the mail. I won't be surprised, however, if Dave has thrown that POS in the garbage.
"The nice thing about standards is that you have so many to choose from." (Andrew S. Tanenbaum)
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15179
  • Country: za
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7454 on: December 21, 2016, 04:18:08 am »
Quickest test is to go buy 2 identical wall clocks, along with a pack of AAA cells to act as test cells. Identical cells from the same batch, most likely to be matched. then a pair of resistive loads to dump the energy a lot faster than the clocks will. Then simply have one with and one without Batteriser, arrange with a mirror to show the back of the units with the wiring and the load and batterisers in some AAA holders, and put a webcam in front along with the timelapse camera, and leave till one or the other stops ticking.

Easiest, and with the webcam as independant observer you can see when each of the clocks stops. Set them to 12H00 at the start, and simply use elapsed time.
 

Offline quad

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 113
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7455 on: December 21, 2016, 08:41:21 am »
Quickest test is to go buy 2 identical wall clocks, along with a pack of AAA cells to act as test cells. Identical cells from the same batch, most likely to be matched. then a pair of resistive loads to dump the energy a lot faster than the clocks will. Then simply have one with and one without Batteriser, arrange with a mirror to show the back of the units with the wiring and the load and batterisers in some AAA holders, and put a webcam in front along with the timelapse camera, and leave till one or the other stops ticking.

Easiest, and with the webcam as independant observer you can see when each of the clocks stops. Set them to 12H00 at the start, and simply use elapsed time.

It's clever, but Batteroo would argue its product is designed to be used on real world products, not lab experiments.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30135
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7456 on: December 21, 2016, 08:50:06 am »
My Batterisers are still held up in Bucharest. Definitely won't make it before xmas now, and I'll be away in the new year.
It's all up to Frank now.

And still others I know who ordered them have not gotten tracking details yet.
 

Offline StuUK

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 388
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7457 on: December 21, 2016, 08:58:01 am »
Our Battery-iser man is back. He has received his Batteroos...


Jeez, listen to his slip of the tongue at 6:23, "reviving...."

https://youtu.be/1XRQXF6IRLA?t=385


Say no more....  :scared:
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12051
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7458 on: December 21, 2016, 09:20:06 am »
I think a small geared motor incrementing a counter would provide an indication of the Batteroooo's (un)effectiveness in a practical application; the higher the counter value when the motor stops, the greater the energy extracted from the cell. This would be very easy to do and doesn't require timelapse video or subjective assessments of performance and cut-off.

I rather like that idea.
For testing passive loads, you could use a 1.5v powered wall-clock as a quick & easy duration timer
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline Blocco

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 97
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7459 on: December 21, 2016, 11:27:03 am »
I think a small geared motor incrementing a counter would provide an indication of the Batteroooo's (un)effectiveness in a practical application; the higher the counter value when the motor stops, the greater the energy extracted from the cell. This would be very easy to do and doesn't require timelapse video or subjective assessments of performance and cut-off.

I rather like that idea.
For testing passive loads, you could use a 1.5v powered wall-clock as a quick & easy duration timer

Big Clive basically used this method, with a small elaboration, for comparing AA cell capacity.

https://youtu.be/-I4liMndTsI
 

Offline razvanme

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 31
  • Country: ro
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7460 on: December 21, 2016, 11:54:20 am »
Another turn of events. It reached Frank, he now needs to go after them.
 

Offline akohler

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 39
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7461 on: December 21, 2016, 01:22:08 pm »
My Batterisers are still held up in Bucharest.

Gee, that excuse sounds familiar.  :-DD
 

Online Cerebus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3668
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7462 on: December 21, 2016, 01:34:59 pm »
Any testing of Probes would need to count the total number of claps. Maybe you could sit him next to a microphone then record a wav file and calculate the RMS volume.

The proper measure would be the area under the sound pressure versus time curve, better known as the 'parent annoyance factor' of a noise making toy. At this gift giving time of year it behoves one to take into account the feelings of one's siblings and siblings-in-law when choosing toys for one's nieces and nephews, if you get my drift.  >:D
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline Towger

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1559
  • Country: ie
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7463 on: December 21, 2016, 03:41:21 pm »
Off we go again and ETA is still Friday..

Quote
EVENT CATEGORY
21 Dec 16 4:54 PM - Clearance processing complete - BUCHAREST,ROMANIA
 

Offline mikerj

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2178
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7464 on: December 21, 2016, 06:30:36 pm »
I'll summarise to save sanity. He believes that they are essentially joule thieves in fancy packaging, and he's actually correct in that.

Not really. A joule thief has no voltage feedback mechanism or output filtering.

Exactly this. The Joule Thief is a specific circuit design with the primary goal of lighting an LED from an almost dead cell with the fewest possible components.  It also features no voltage regulation, no accurate current limiting, no thermal protection, poor efficiency and  huge ripple.  You could not use a Joule Thief in a batteriser design without significantly changing the circuit, by which time it's no longer a Joule Thief.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30135
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7465 on: December 21, 2016, 09:35:02 pm »
My units shipped!
Yes, I can now reveal that I was a backer  ;D
A very early backer, so they obviously didn't care about shipping to those people first.
And just like others have said, my tracking number does not work. It's a USPS number that draws a blank, and the email link goes to Fedex.
 
The following users thanked this post: benst, ludzinc, mintsoft

Offline g.lewarne

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 127
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7466 on: December 21, 2016, 09:44:57 pm »
My units shipped!
Yes, I can now reveal that I was a backer  ;D
A very early backer, so they obviously didn't care about shipping to those people first.
And just like others have said, my tracking number does not work. It's a USPS number that draws a blank, and the email link goes to Fedex.


you dirty dawg!

WOOHOO!
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30135
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7467 on: December 21, 2016, 09:48:47 pm »
Off we go again and ETA is still Friday..
Quote
EVENT CATEGORY
21 Dec 16 4:54 PM - Clearance processing complete - BUCHAREST,ROMANIA

I doubt they will make it Friday, it's Thursday morning here now and it's a 24hr+ flight from Bucharest.
But even if they do I doubt I'll be able to do anything with them, maybe just a start a test, but certainly not a produce a video.
 

Offline samgab

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 423
  • Country: nz
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7468 on: December 21, 2016, 09:58:31 pm »
Off we go again and ETA is still Friday..
Quote
EVENT CATEGORY
21 Dec 16 4:54 PM - Clearance processing complete - BUCHAREST,ROMANIA

I doubt they will make it Friday, it's Thursday morning here now and it's a 24hr+ flight from Bucharest.
But even if they do I doubt I'll be able to do anything with them, maybe just a start a test, but certainly not a produce a video.


Well, it looks like in this crazy world we'll have at least ONE thing to look forward to in 2017...  ;)
 
The following users thanked this post: SeanB

Offline Kean

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 922
  • Country: au
  • Embedded systems & IT consultant
    • Kean Electronics
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7469 on: December 21, 2016, 10:13:29 pm »
Off we go again and ETA is still Friday..
Quote
EVENT CATEGORY
21 Dec 16 4:54 PM - Clearance processing complete - BUCHAREST,ROMANIA

I doubt they will make it Friday, it's Thursday morning here now and it's a 24hr+ flight from Bucharest.
But even if they do I doubt I'll be able to do anything with them, maybe just a start a test, but certainly not a produce a video.

Well if they do arrive in Sydney before you head off on holidays and you want to hand them off to someone local, then I'd be happy to run some qualification tests similar to FrankBuss.  I have the equipment.
Not interested in doing a video though  :scared:
 

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 9414
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7470 on: December 21, 2016, 10:22:20 pm »
Just a few minutes video of the unboxing will do.  It can be our Christmas present.

It might sound like a bit of an OTT effort - but considering all the "naysayers" comments on this thread about there never being a product and it was all a scam, I would consider it not unreasonable to address these directly and explain where they were founded (in the epic communications fail that defined Batteroo).

I believe there is great value in clearing the air on this.  Say whatever needs to be said to separate any and all discussion on the existence of the Batteroo sleeves from that regarding the claims and performance.

We now know that a product exists - and, in truth, all the huffing and puffing about that can be summarily dispensed with when all is said and done.  The corporate/marketing/communication fail is no longer relevant to what really matters.

What does matter now is the performance of the product - the engineering.  It is time to test ... and those tests will come .......
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 10:24:15 pm by Brumby »
 

Offline Towger

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1559
  • Country: ie
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7471 on: December 21, 2016, 10:37:59 pm »
[quote author=EEVblog
I doubt they will make it Friday, it's Thursday morning here now and it's a 24hr+ flight from Bucharest.
But even if they do I doubt I'll be able to do anything with them, maybe just a start a test, but certainly not a produce a video.
[/quote]

Close of business on Friday, which should be possible on a normal weekend...

Don't suppose it would go down well with Nicole, if you were to cancel your holidays to test some batteries for your 'Internet friends'. [emoji6]

I certainly looks as if a new backer has come along and money is no object. It is costing them fortune to post from the States, in those oversized boxes.  The wonder know as China Post seems to have escaped the brothers.

 

Online dcac

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 154
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7472 on: December 22, 2016, 12:37:56 am »
My units shipped!
Yes, I can now reveal that I was a backer  ;D

hehehe you'll probably be a Batteriser reseller before you know it, I was thinking you could have blue sleeves instead of red .... no actually scratch that thought.
 

Offline Luminax

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 159
  • Country: my
    • Electronesk
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7473 on: December 22, 2016, 01:43:02 am »
Any testing of Probes would need to count the total number of claps. Maybe you could sit him next to a microphone then record a wav file and calculate the RMS volume.

The proper measure would be the area under the sound pressure versus time curve, better known as the 'parent annoyance factor' of a noise making toy. At this gift giving time of year it behoves one to take into account the feelings of one's siblings and siblings-in-law when choosing toys for one's nieces and nephews, if you get my drift.  >:D

Or "the amount of liquor/coffee/cigarettes/pick your poison consumed to nullify the annoyance" meter  :-DD :-DD
Jack of all trade - Master of some... I hope...
 

Offline Smokey

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1592
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7474 on: December 22, 2016, 03:37:56 am »
Question for Dave,
Given the popularity of this topic (you have about 400,000 views on the 4 videos related to it), and the fact you have already been quoted by real news places (and directly disparaged by the creator), might it be worth it to get a video out quickly showing the actual analysis before others beat you to it?  Strikes me that would get a lot of views and attention now, but might not be that interesting once the inevitable flop is shown by a bunch of people and this whole thing fades away....  Might need to take the electronic load with you on vacation...  Christmas happens every year. 
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf