Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 2454267 times)

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Offline QuantumLogic

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7475 on: December 22, 2016, 04:00:54 am »
...Christmas happens every year.
And a wife's scorn lasts forever.  Family first.
 

Online Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7476 on: December 22, 2016, 04:27:57 am »
Yes - family is more important.

Besides, with the level of interest, I can see Dave wanting to be very considered in the videos he presents.  (Yes, I can see more than one).
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7477 on: December 22, 2016, 04:36:44 am »
Question for Dave,
Given the popularity of this topic (you have about 400,000 views on the 4 videos related to it), and the fact you have already been quoted by real news places (and directly disparaged by the creator), might it be worth it to get a video out quickly showing the actual analysis before others beat you to it? 

The point is moot, I don't have Batterisers yet.
I can't get out of planned holidays or xmas new years family event, not that I want to.
And you can't shoot, edit and release any decent technical videos whilst on holidays.
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7478 on: December 22, 2016, 05:05:00 am »
Probably not a bad thing really, I very much doubt that anybody here has the right to put you under the pump and I think most would rather you spent more relaxed time pondering over your final approach, the time out may in fact be a good thing so that when you get back from a break you could then nail these things down properly the first time around. 

Nothing worse than looking back on something you've previously done with the then realisation that it could have been done this, that or the other way, hindsight changes nothing in the past.
 
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7479 on: December 22, 2016, 05:39:43 am »
Dave, maybe it's worth while making this Batteriser video (when it does happen) a bigger-than-usual video. Are there any Aussie EE's that could join you in that episode? Maybe someone like Doug Ford?
 

Offline razvanme

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7480 on: December 22, 2016, 06:50:31 am »
Question for Dave,
Given the popularity of this topic (you have about 400,000 views on the 4 videos related to it), and the fact you have already been quoted by real news places (and directly disparaged by the creator), might it be worth it to get a video out quickly showing the actual analysis before others beat you to it? 

The point is moot, I don't have Batterisers yet.
I can't get out of planned holidays or xmas new years family event, not that I want to.
And you can't shoot, edit and release any decent technical videos whilst on holidays.

If they reach you by the time you leave, you can do real life tests :D. Avoid using them in a camera, you don't want it to suddenly shut down when you want to take that perfect family picture.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 07:32:45 am by razvanme »
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7481 on: December 22, 2016, 12:59:21 pm »
Quote from: EEVblog link=topic=48950.msg1096126#msg1096126
I doubt they will make it Friday, it's Thursday morning here now and it's a 24hr+ flight from Bucharest.
Santa can do it :)
or DHL :)
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 01:02:32 pm by f4eru »
 

Offline Towger

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7482 on: December 22, 2016, 01:26:02 pm »
Santa can do it :)
or DHL :)

They have left Germany now and the ETA to the EEVBlog Corporate HQ is still end of business on Friday.
 

Offline AlxDroidDev

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7483 on: December 22, 2016, 02:18:16 pm »
I had a feeling Dave was one of the backers! It was quite obvious, actually: Dave had to have one of those so he could do real tests and experiments with them. Only then the debunking would go from theoretical to practical.

And a wife's scorn lasts forever.  Family first.

Truer words were never spoken!

Dave, just enjoy the Holidays with your lovely family and put this matter aside for a few days. It won't hurt anyone, and besides we all will have something to look for in 2017. We've waited this long and we certainly can wait a few days more. Other folks, like a certain Bob and someone whose name we shan't mention, will certainly appreciate the wait!
"The nice thing about standards is that you have so many to choose from." (Andrew S. Tanenbaum)
 
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Offline SeanB

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EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7484 on: December 22, 2016, 03:58:26 pm »
We've waited this long and we certainly can wait a few days more. Other folks, like a certain Bob and someone whose name we shan't mention, will certainly appreciate the wait!

true, Dave needs to also have a holiday, see what the family looks like in the daylight, treat the woman he loves to some undivided attention and indulgence, and urn off his phone for at least 2 days with her, the family and nothing else to distract. if he is enjoying the lovely country he lives in as well, and is seeing places, without being glued to a camera viewfinder as well, so much more the better.

I should do the same, I hear the local band in the distance, at least the Scottish lethal weapon they have there. Think I will go for a quick walk and enjoy the afternoon.
 

Offline Hensingler

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7485 on: December 22, 2016, 04:49:41 pm »
The man in Darwin continues...

https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/posts/1301948409871526


and an unboxing from someone who might do testing and followup

« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 04:54:33 pm by Hensingler »
 

Offline samgab

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7486 on: December 22, 2016, 05:09:44 pm »
Thanks Frank! Pretty damn conclusive with a simple real world test.  :-+ :-+
 

Offline CJay

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7487 on: December 22, 2016, 06:04:25 pm »
I rarely, if ever do facebook (it's a game login thing) but I did today...

 
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Offline quad

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7488 on: December 22, 2016, 06:38:36 pm »
A big thanks to Frank Buss for performing the very first tests on the Batteroo! 

Think of the headlines!!!

Batteroo guilty as charged with exaggerated battery performance claims

Batteriser campaign runs out of juice

Batteriser falls flat on 800% claims

Battery boosting campaign runs out on backers

Crowdfunding supporters discover their battery booster was free of charge all along
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7489 on: December 22, 2016, 09:14:38 pm »
I hereby propose a new forum emoticon based on the picture below which could be used to relay either of the following messages:

1. This thread just keeps going around in circles.
2. This thread is a complete and utter train wreck.
3. Your technical theory is making all of us dizzy.
4. I've had enough and am getting off at the next stop.

 :) :-+
 

Offline g.lewarne

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7490 on: December 22, 2016, 09:38:01 pm »
can someone link me to franks video?
 

Offline FireBird

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7491 on: December 22, 2016, 09:42:33 pm »
His post is over here.
 

Offline Smokey

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7492 on: December 22, 2016, 10:31:23 pm »
...Christmas happens every year.
And a wife's scorn lasts forever.  Family first.

A big fat check for a super popular video and a bump in forum traffic buys the wife a lot of new shoes.  Just saying...
 

Offline Blocco

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7493 on: December 22, 2016, 11:02:09 pm »
It looks like their new top-dollar marketing adviser has some tough challenges ahead  :horse:




 

Online Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7494 on: December 22, 2016, 11:56:59 pm »
Considering the broad interest this thread seems to have captured - I thought the following might be appropriate to throw in....

For the casual reader, it should be pointed out that there are two very distinct classes of tests that can be performed on the Batteroo sleeves.

The first is the characterisation of the sleeves themselves. 
This is where power is provided by sources such as laboratory power supplies and dummy loads are used to draw power, just like a keyboard, clock or toy train would.  With these types of tests, there are several benefits:
 - there is great control over the parameters available, so you can set very specific conditions and you can see how the Batteroo sleeve performs on each one.  You can have input voltage levels like 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, etc. or 1.00, 1.01, 1.02, 1.03, etc.  It just depends on how detailed you want your data.
 - these conditions are stable.  You might want to see exactly how a sleeve performs at a point where a battery is dropping very quickly.  With lab equipment, you can set up any number of such points and keep them stable while the measurements are taken and recorded
 - these conditions are repeatable.  You can do them any number of times and there should be no variation.  If there is, you will need to look at your setup to work out why.  Using batteries for this type of testing makes repeatability with certainty practically impossible.
 - because this type of testing is stable and repeatable, you can test a number of different sleeves to see how consistently they perform when compared to each other.
 - lab style testing allows very precise measurements to be taken - particularly in the proper use of the measuring equipment, so that voltage drops along wires and through meters are not being included in the measurements being taken.  (These can be quite significant, especially at 1.5V battery levels, so avoiding this trap for young players is vital for accurate results.)

All of this will end up with a mass of numbers.  Numbers which can be used to create graphs and charts and all sorts of observations that electrical engineers drool over.  They do this because these graphs will show exactly what the Batteroo sleeves are capable of.  They will be able to tell you if the sleeve can deliver enough current to power a particular toy train.  They will be able to answer a multitude of questions from those tests about how the Batteroo sleeve will perform in various situations.

As much as people might go "Well, goody for you."  the fact is, that if a chart generated from testing a sleeve says it won't work in 'X' conditions ... then it won't work - and if it will, it will.  Just remember, these are the same engineering practices that put man on the moon, a laser in your pocket and the internet you are looking at right now.


The second class of testing is in real world applications.
Yes!  This is what it's all about - and you might be tempted to say "Why carry on with all that rubbish you just talked about when this is what matters?"  That is an understandable view - but I like to think of it like this:  All the characterisation testing produces a kind of a map of the terrain and in a real world application, you are going to follow a path across that terrain.  That is often very helpful in planning the trip and assessing the problems if something went wrong on the trip.

The big challenge, however, is that with this kind of testing - especially for battery powered equipment - is that there is a big unknown ... the actual condition of each battery.  Even brand new out of the pack, there is no guarantee they will all be the same.  Fortunately, they do tend to be fairly consistent - but even then, if we get a weirdly different test result somewhere along the line, we cannot exclude the battery from suspicion.  This challenge is made even more complex because we can be talking about batteries that have already served for a time, making their condition even more of a mystery.

While some real world tests that have been carefuly constructed (to provide as many consistent parameters as possible) will be able to produce some very useful results, they will not cover each and every possible situation.  That will take tens of thousands of tests out among the public to start painting such a picture.

But even then, test results may not be really accurate if, for example, a critical parameter was not noted during these tests.  "What sort of parameter?!!" you might demand.  I'll offer this as one: Temperature.  It has a rather significant effect on battery chemistry - as I'm sure a lot of people already know.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 12:00:45 am by Brumby »
 
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7495 on: December 23, 2016, 01:18:38 am »
The number of these things out in the wild must be extremely low.

Someone's asking an awkward question.
https://twitter.com/ueberfliegr/status/812051651854934016
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Online Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7496 on: December 23, 2016, 02:26:02 am »
The number of these things out in the wild must be extremely low.

Someone's asking an awkward question.
https://twitter.com/ueberfliegr/status/812051651854934016

To an EE, that's just a question - and given enough information, an EE will be able to answer it.  Part of that information is the "map of the terrain" I mentioned above.  Another is the path through that terrain that this test would represent.

The question only becomes potentially awkward when it's put to Batteroo.  They may have an answer for that particular one.  (I can already think of one that will probably satisfy the fan-boys.)
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7497 on: December 23, 2016, 03:44:06 am »
"The question only becomes potentially awkward when it's put to Batteroo.  They may have an answer for that particular one.  (I can already think of one that will probably satisfy the fan-boys.)"

Wrong type of sleaves on the line.
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 
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Offline kalleboo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7498 on: December 23, 2016, 08:07:20 am »
I ordered a pack on their website a month ago just to see what they do, paying with PayPal and figuring that it will be easy to refund in the 90 day paypal buyers guarantee when they inevitably slip on their non-stop delays, but to my surprise they claim to have shipped my package yesterday. So kickstarter backers aren't even necessarily getting theirs before website purchasers!

And just like others have said, my tracking number does not work. It's a USPS number that draws a blank, and the email link goes to Fedex.
If your tracking number ends with "SE" and not "US", then it's not USPS, but a PostNord (Sweden Post) tracking number. Maybe try http://www.postnord.se/en/Personal/Pages/personal.aspx
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 08:11:40 am by kalleboo »
 

Offline madires

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7499 on: December 23, 2016, 12:21:53 pm »
I ordered a pack on their website a month ago just to see what they do, paying with PayPal and figuring that it will be easy to refund in the 90 day paypal buyers guarantee when they inevitably slip on their non-stop delays, but to my surprise they claim to have shipped my package yesterday. So kickstarter backers aren't even necessarily getting theirs before website purchasers!

Batteroo knows exactly how to displease backers really good. :palm:
 


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