Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 2334477 times)

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Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7525 on: December 24, 2016, 12:09:55 am »
I dislike the lack of transparency with the "Revive" version of the train test.
I prefer to see the full data not "I won't bore you with the technical stuff which is probably too hard for you".
I prefer to see the full video time lapsed including evidence of the brand new battery blister pack being opened and the batteroo being put on one specific battery and being inserted into a specific train and another battery out of the same pack being put into the other, and then both trains being run in an unbroken cycle so I can see for myself how it was done (as was done by Frank in his video). Gives confidence in the methods being used, so I can see that they haven't made any glaring "mistakes".

Could be still faked, e.g. discharge the battery without the sleeve, then close the blister pack carefully. Would get a lot more difficult, if the battery open loop voltage are measured at the beginning of the test on video (I really should have done this), but you could still fake a battery, or maybe use a strong magnet to slow down the train. The only way to be sure are independent tests with the same product. That's the reason I posted the exact model I used, both for the train and for the battery brand. I encourage everyone who likes trains and has a AAA Batteroo sleeve, to buy this train (might be a nice present for little kids, though a bit late for xmas), or any other toys with motors, result will probably be the same, and repeat the test.
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
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Online amspire

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7526 on: December 24, 2016, 12:25:05 am »
I dislike the lack of transparency with the "Revive" version of the train test.
...
I have to admit I am looking forward to seeing the measurements of the Batteriser with a power supply input and a calibrated load on the output.

They will be the only accurate performance numbers.

Stuff like toy train tests and MP3 player tests - OK it makes a point, but I am an engineer - I want accurate numbers that do not depend on unknowns like battery capacity variations, load variations in unknown devices, etc. I want to know efficiency at different battery voltages and loads, regulation, noise (output and EMI), maximum practical current, conditions that destroy the Batteriser, interaction between multiple Batterisers particularly when the first Batteriser shuts down, Minimum cell voltage (if one Batteriser shuts down in a multi-cell battery pack, can you end up with -0.6v on a battery cell?). If a Batteriser instantly switches from no load to maximum load, will the output drop to the battery voltage - 0.8V  for the time it takes to wake up from sleep mode? If so how long is that time?

I am far more interested personally in that information then the one off battery tests on consumer devices.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7527 on: December 24, 2016, 01:49:12 am »
Well DHL has let us down. they missed their own ETA and the current status is "The Estimated Delivery Date is currently unavailable. Please try again later."
Oh well, at least they have arrived down under.
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Saturday, December 24, 2016   Location   Time   Piece
18   Customs status updated   SYDNEY - AUSTRALIA   00:22

They are cleared, so will be on the next truck. Presumably the 27th.
No sign of my AA's direct from Batteroo.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7528 on: December 24, 2016, 01:50:33 am »
NEW UPDATE!

Quote
Dear Friends,

We want to wish you all a happy holiday season and New Year! We hope it’s filled with blessings & memorable experiences with loved ones. Thankfully, It has been an auspicious time for Batteroo. We are delighted to announce that we shipped all Indiegogo orders! If you're still waiting, you'll be getting yours soon. As a startup, we faced many obstacles to get to this stage, and we're thankful you patiently stood by us!

The good news doesn't stop. We launched a new website at www.batteroo.com. We look forward to sharing new testing and educational video content so that people can learn more about Batteroo, and how it can save you time, money & our environment by reducing the number of batteries in landfills.  You can also order more Batteroo Boost sleeves on our products page.

We also wanted to address a few questions. First, we want to remind you that once you receive a tracking e-mail, your order has shipped. For some international orders, however, the tracking link may be broken at first. This is due to a delay after the products transfer from U.S. mail to international postal services. We have addressed the problem & your link will work within 3 days. This has no effect on your shipment time.

Some of you noted that the Batteroo sleeves were a tight fit in a few devices. Battery compartments are designed so batteries fit securly in devices, so a tight fit is expected. To get a better appreciation for our technology, the Batteroo sleeve and electronic components add a mere 0.35 mm (thickness of a fingernail) to the battery length,  and 0.12 mm (thickness of a human hair) in thickness. There should be no issue with fit for most devices; however, a few device battery compartments leave absolutely no additional space. Just do your best to insert the sleeve without being forceful, and it should fit in most scenarios. We have addressed this further, as well as other user concerns  in our best practice guide on our new website. Click here for more.

Many of you have also asked about the Energizer lawsuit.  Based on a prior message, some of our customers may have believed that Energizer’s lawsuit against Batteroo’s use of the Batteriser name caused a delay in shipping products. This was not the case. Furthermore, the re-tooling of sleeves did not delay the shipment of our product.

Thanks again for supporting our campaign and making it such a success! You’ve helped us make history and get this groundbreaking technology out to the world.

Sincerely,

Batteroo
 

Offline amyk

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7529 on: December 24, 2016, 02:08:03 am »
And even this might be not the case. I measured the output voltage for different input voltages with different loads, see the second diagram here. But it is interesting that the output voltage is pretty stable, regardless of the current, but still much less thant 1.5V. As mentioned by amyk, the reason might be that battery indicators still work.

I still think they have a product that might be useful for some niche applications. They should just post all data so that the user can decide. Couldn't find this output voltage behaviour on their FAQ or production description page. They might be even be able to sell their chip without the sleeve with a good datasheet.
That behaviour suggests a Vref that's not fully powered up at low Vin. I have a feeling it might not even be intentional, but they decided to go with it anyway...
 

Online amspire

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7530 on: December 24, 2016, 03:31:01 am »
And even this might be not the case. I measured the output voltage for different input voltages with different loads, see the second diagram here. But it is interesting that the output voltage is pretty stable, regardless of the current, but still much less thant 1.5V. As mentioned by amyk, the reason might be that battery indicators still work.

I still think they have a product that might be useful for some niche applications. They should just post all data so that the user can decide. Couldn't find this output voltage behaviour on their FAQ or production description page. They might be even be able to sell their chip without the sleeve with a good datasheet.
That behaviour suggests a Vref that's not fully powered up at low Vin. I have a feeling it might not even be intentional, but they decided to go with it anyway...
LT power the reference from the output as long as the output is 0.24V or more above the input. This means that usually the reference stability ends up being independent of the input voltage. You would expect that the Batteriser would work the same way, but it seems they don't. Frank might be right in that it may be deliberate.

As the battery goes from 1.6V to 1V, the output goes from 1.52v to 1.4V - so most battery gauges will still be saying the battery is very good.

As the battery goes from 1v to 0.6V, the output gradually drops. This does mean it is not an abrupt shutdown from 100% to nothing and so I don't mind this behaviour at all.

My criticism is that the output voltage does not drop enough.

There will be devices that attempt to shutdown cleanly when the battery is getting low. The trouble with the Batteriser is the output is still 1.2V when the battery is 0.6V and so none of the clean shutdown routines will be triggered. Most smart devices will see 1.2V as meaning that there is lots of capacity left. I would have wanted the output to be under 1v output when the battery is 0.6v.
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7531 on: December 24, 2016, 03:43:43 am »
 We've waited how long for these Batteroo people to finish the excuses and actually ship, so surely we can wait a couple of weeks for Dave to spend time with his family and then produce what I am sure will be a VERY thorough analysis. In the meantime we have Frank, and also that latest update - wait, the Energizer lawsuit did not cause any delay? Didn't they say it WAS back at the time? And I really want to use their tooling provider if retooling the sleeve design to say Batteroo instead of Batterizer caused absolutely no delay. OK, it shouldn't take all that much time to change a few letter and regenerate the CAM file, but in the real world this usually takes a few days.
 Anyway, getting some fresh popcorn ready to see the response to the upcoming controlled tests - will the purchased dislikes make a return, will Dave (and Frank) be disparaged over their education level? Will random new accounts appear to post negative messages? Stay tuned for more from As The Battery Drains.....

 
 
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Offline SL4P

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7532 on: December 24, 2016, 05:27:50 am »
If anyone is putting together a fully integrated test suite - particularly for passive devices like the trains, it may be nice to add (along with earlier suggestions), a timer controlled relay in the load...

A random on/off interval between say... 30 secs and 5 minutes - to simulate real world use by children or other intermittent operation where the device is turned on and off during normal operation.  Of course this will extend the overall runtime.

This may also suggest some added monitoring overhead for duty cycle and total active runtime.
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Offline Blocco

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7533 on: December 24, 2016, 09:48:05 am »
NEW UPDATE!

Quote
Dear Friends,


Some of you noted that the Batteroo sleeves were a tight fit in a few devices. Battery compartments are designed so batteries fit securly in devices, so a tight fit is expected. To get a better appreciation for our technology, the Batteroo sleeve and electronic components add a mere 0.35 mm (thickness of a fingernail) to the battery length,  and 0.12 mm (thickness of a human hair) in thickness. There should be no issue with fit for most devices; however, a few device battery compartments leave absolutely no additional space. Just do your best to insert the sleeve without being forceful, and it should fit in most scenarios. We have addressed this further, as well as other user concerns  in our best practice guide on our new website. Click here for more.


Sincerely,

Batteroo

According to the Batteroo website, the reason Batteroos don't make contact in some products is because the products aren't designed correctly. Fortunately, Bob has a solution.....
Quote
In some remote cases, these guards can stop the Batteroo top spring contact to not make connection with the positive contact of the battery-operated device. As we identify these devices, we are going to have communication with their manufacturers to improve on their design parameters

I'm sure they will appreciate the input. :)

Perhaps Bob could use the following as a template...
Quote
Dear (insert name of huge multi-national consumer electronics manufacturer here),

my name is Dr Bob Rhubarb and me and my brother, Frankie Rhubarb, have made a game-changing device that will reduce the battery life of your products, but don't worry, no one will notice because it also screws around with the battery metering whilst simultaneously making the world a better place for polar bears and dolphins etc etc. The only problem is you haven't designed your products properly and they won't fit our ground-breaking technological wonder! Please redesign them immediately, and don't bollocks it up this time!

Thanks for your cooperation.

PS If you're wondering about my expertise in this field, let me reassure you; I once reduced the size of an iPhone charger by 50%..... I cut it in half LOL.

« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 05:38:44 pm by Blocco »
 
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Offline SL4P

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7534 on: December 24, 2016, 09:53:12 am »
When this approach to the manufacturers fails - Boob has a fallback solution.
Batteroo's going to reverse the direction of rotation of the Earth - so that time actually unwinds - and all naysayers can go suck eggs.
Apple are already supporting this position.
Don't ask a question if you aren't willing to listen to the answer.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7535 on: December 24, 2016, 10:22:23 am »
Quote
"In some remote cases, these guards can stop the Batteroo top spring contact to not make connection with the positive contact of the battery-operated device. As we identify these devices, we are going to have communication with their manufacturers to improve on their design parameters."
That's the funniest thing I've read all week - I wonder if it's  bullshit or self-delusion?


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Online amspire

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7536 on: December 24, 2016, 11:14:42 am »
Quote
"In some remote cases, these guards can stop the Batteroo top spring contact to not make connection with the positive contact of the battery-operated device. As we identify these devices, we are going to have communication with their manufacturers to improve on their design parameters."
That's the funniest thing I've read all week - I wonder if it's  bullshit or self-delusion?
This is the 100 year anniversary of the AA battery, and 70 years since the size was made a standard, and Bob wants to redefine it so that it accommodates a new contact that will break after a few uses.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7537 on: December 24, 2016, 11:23:05 am »
Quote
"In some remote cases, these guards can stop the Batteroo top spring contact to not make connection with the positive contact of the battery-operated device. As we identify these devices, we are going to have communication with their manufacturers to improve on their design parameters."
That's the funniest thing I've read all week - I wonder if it's  bullshit or self-delusion?

It's political.

By making such a statement, he pushes responsibility onto the manufacturers.  When the manufacturers do nothing about it, the public won't blame Batteroo - whether or not Batteroo actually approach any manufacturers.
 

Offline Koen

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7538 on: December 24, 2016, 11:28:34 am »
That's the funniest thing I've read all week - I wonder if it's  bullshit or self-delusion?
No, it's a clear lack of vision or ambition. Instead of convincing all manufacturers to enlarge the slots (the easy but less profitable way; opening the way to competitors too !), they should sell NDA access to a 200-pages specifications document which manufacturers could then each implement on their own and which would then give them the right to licence the holy "Batteriser capable" name, logo and on-product marking yearly.
I've dropped the idea to my lawyer before clicking "post", you never know.
 

Offline daveake

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7539 on: December 24, 2016, 11:43:26 am »
What Boob should have said ...

Quote
"In some remote cases, devices do actually benefit from addition of a Batteroo. As we identify these devices, we are going to have communication with their manufacturers to improve on their design parameters so they don't need a Batteroo."
 
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Offline IanB

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7540 on: December 24, 2016, 12:21:09 pm »
Quote
"In some remote cases, these guards can stop the Batteroo top spring contact to not make connection with the positive contact of the battery-operated device. As we identify these devices, we are going to have communication with their manufacturers to improve on their design parameters."
That's the funniest thing I've read all week - I wonder if it's  bullshit or self-delusion?

I didn't mention it because I thought everyone would already be aware of it, but that's most like the reverse polarity protection. Nearly all electronic devices that are polarity sensitive have a plastic ridge around the positive contact that is just large enough for the positive button of the battery to fit inside. This prevents the negative end of the battery making electrical contact if the battery is put in backwards, thus protecting the device from damage.

Obviously if you do something that changes the shape of the positive button it will prevent this mechanism from working. This is a factor that would normally be expected to come up the early stages of product design.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 12:22:54 pm by IanB »
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Offline madires

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7541 on: December 24, 2016, 12:45:42 pm »
Quote
"In some remote cases, these guards can stop the Batteroo top spring contact to not make connection with the positive contact of the battery-operated device. As we identify these devices, we are going to have communication with their manufacturers to improve on their design parameters."
That's the funniest thing I've read all week - I wonder if it's  bullshit or self-delusion?

As Brumby said, it's just blaming someone else for their own design failures in a nice way to delude the reader. Batteroo did also underestimate the amount of battery compartments with a tight fit. The flimsy sleeves break easily. I think we'll see a lot of complaints about broken sleeves and battery compartment issues.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 02:19:31 pm by madires »
 

Offline quad

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7542 on: December 24, 2016, 01:51:30 pm »
What's the return / refund / warranty policy on the Batterisers?

Is this a case where IGG backers get ignored? What about people who purchased off the website?

We've already had a broken Batteriser and that was with the user being *careful*.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7543 on: December 24, 2016, 03:53:28 pm »
Remote cases are certainly one of the more common places to find the reverse polarity protection guards. :D

 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7544 on: December 24, 2016, 04:03:35 pm »
What's the return / refund / warranty policy on the Batterisers?

Is this a case where IGG backers get ignored?

You seem to be forgetting that when you back something on IGG, you are contributing a donation to a project, perhaps with the hope of possibly receiving a perk if everything goes successfully...

You are NOT purchasing a product!
 

Offline PeterL

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7545 on: December 24, 2016, 04:42:03 pm »
Quote
"In some remote cases, these guards can stop the Batteroo top spring contact to not make connection with the positive contact of the battery-operated device. As we identify these devices, we are going to have communication with their manufacturers to improve on their design parameters."
That's the funniest thing I've read all week - I wonder if it's  bullshit or self-delusion?

It's political.

By making such a statement, he pushes responsibility onto the manufacturers.  When the manufacturers do nothing about it, the public won't blame Batteroo - whether or not Batteroo actually approach any manufacturers.
'The manufacturers' could simply integrate Batteroo's groundbraking circuit on their own PCB, so no one has to hassle with flimsy sleeves, because it's already built in the device. How cool would that be!

And then while they are at it, the manufacturers could:
- Use just one 'batteroo chip' for a set of batteries, instead of one for each single cell,
- Taylor the circuit to the specific needs of their device,
- use better parts because they have more space,
- properly shutdown the converter when the device is off,
- Still measure the bare cell voltage for the battery gauge.

These benefits are so obvious that maybe, just maybe, manufacturers are already doing just that.

But Bob must prevent his crowd from figuring this out, so he throws op distractions like 'big battery should integrate this technology in their batteries', and 'manufacturers should modify their device to make the sleeve fit'.
 

Offline PeterL

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7546 on: December 24, 2016, 04:50:23 pm »
NEW UPDATE!

Quote
Dear Friends,

<...snip...>
Many of you have also asked about the Energizer lawsuit.  Based on a prior message, some of our customers may have believed that Energizer’s lawsuit against Batteroo’s use of the Batteriser name caused a delay in shipping products. This was not the case. Furthermore, the re-tooling of sleeves did not delay the shipment of our product.
<...snip...>

Sincerely,

Batteroo
This to to me reads as: "Be nice to Energizer, they can still come after us if we talk bad about them"
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 05:00:24 pm by PeterL »
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7547 on: December 24, 2016, 05:06:01 pm »
What's the return / refund / warranty policy on the Batterisers?

Is this a case where IGG backers get ignored?

You seem to be forgetting that when you back something on IGG, you are contributing a donation to a project, perhaps with the hope of possibly receiving a perk if everything goes successfully...

You are NOT purchasing a product!

From memory we have already been over this subject and I suspect more than once, it would appear that they themselves got caught in their own trap by way of wonky wording, now that I understand these arrangements better I do agree with you though that these campaigns are generally based around a donation backed arrangement rather than a promissory note, interpretation matters.

Backers and Perks.
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Offline SL4P

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7549 on: December 24, 2016, 08:29:19 pm »
With regard to the 'flimsy' construction of the BatterPoo
I don't think that's something we can criticise straight out of the gate because the construction has always been out on the table to see.   However, their flimsy positive contact is another thing.

Notwithstanding the engineering flaws and endless excuses, Boob has astounded me with his complete disregard for reality - even when it's put on the table in front of him.
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