EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[dexters_lab]

i can certainly look at some of the higher current questions / destructive testing

i have two Keysight 6632 bench PSUs here so i can source and sink circa 4-5 amps at the same time, or is it preferable to use real-world products to test in?

i have dichloromethane here so can look at depotting the circuit off the sleeve, though the PCB is paper thin so i doubt there would be much left of it before the potting compound softens. It seems to be quite hard, its certainly not soft silicone.

[cowana]

Don't think we have seen decent photos of the AA PCB yet.

True - a lot of the testing so far has been on AAAs, and assuming performance on AAs (more common) will be similar.

[crimsonknight3]

I think this is going along the same lines as the batteriser, so I decided to post here hoping some of the more techy people are following the thread rather than just people enjoying the drama.

I assume the batteriser is essentially a joule thief?

I've been wondering, if a joule thief is installed with 20 led's in series from a new set of batteries, will the led's last just as long, longer or shorter... My assumption is just as long or shorter due to more energy being wasted by the current limiting resistor for the led's, am I close?

Thanks

[ccs46]

blow them up?

YES... DO IT!!! 

[ccs46]

I think this is going along the same lines as the batteriser, so I decided to post here hoping some of the more techy people are following the thread rather than just people enjoying the drama.

I assume the batteriser is essentially a joule thief?

I've been wondering, if a joule thief is installed with 20 led's in series from a new set of batteries, will the led's last just as long, longer or shorter... My assumption is just as long or shorter due to more energy being wasted by the current limiting resistor for the led's, am I close?

Thanks

Its a glorified boost converter...Thats all it is...  To quote Dave:

No on the forum denies that Batteriser will work, it will work as a boost converter, but not going to do what the Batterbros are saying it will...

It will work slightly longer, but the Batteriser renders gauges useless so from my understanding it would basically work til it died immediately. And from my limited EE experience, Correct me if I'm wrong,  I think it will be affected by the resistor, but the Batteriser might counter for that. So it might be a little bit shorter, but not much.

[Godzil]

Hum I wonder how much the Baterooser will impact the battery life of a really efficient WonderSwan (a Japanese handheld game console) that run on a single AA battery, and can run for dozen of hour (about 30 hours on the original model, ~15 hours on the latest with a colour screen)

Sadly I don't have any Batterooser

[dr_frost_dk]

i can certainly look at some of the higher current questions / destructive testing

i have two Keysight 6632 bench PSUs here so i can source and sink circa 4-5 amps at the same time, or is it preferable to use real-world products to test in?

i have dichloromethane here so can look at depotting the circuit off the sleeve, though the PCB is paper thin so i doubt there would be much left of it before the potting compound softens. It seems to be quite hard, its certainly not soft silicone.

If you have the equipment then get some curves on performance, e.g. what % efficiency at given input voltage and output current etc.
This would really be the last nail in the coffin if it can be shown that unless you use a VERY specific load/device then the batteriser will be hopeless and give less runtime as all tests are showing so far.

[Fungus]

I assume the batteriser is essentially a joule thief?

Yes and no. There's important differences.

A joule thief produces a stream of voltage spikes from an inductor. Spikes are enough to make LEDs flash briefly (and visibly) but in no way is it useful as a power supply.

A power supply (eg batteriser) has to regulate those spikes down to a fixed voltage and provide a sustained current.

[Pilleville]

Don't think we have seen decent photos of the AA PCB yet.

True - a lot of the testing so far has been on AAAs, and assuming performance on AAs (more common) will be similar.

The performance on AAs should be abit worse, since the sleeve has to operate over a wider current range, right? The boost converter can't be optimized for more then one point if it's static. If high current AAA setups gives heating problems, then AAs would require another chip totally and maybe another sleeve design to heat sink more.

[JiggyNinja]

Don't think we have seen decent photos of the AA PCB yet.

True - a lot of the testing so far has been on AAAs, and assuming performance on AAs (more common) will be similar.

The performance on AAs should be abit worse, since the sleeve has to operate over a wider current range, right? The boost converter can't be optimized for more then one point if it's static. If high current AAA setups gives heating problems, then AAs would require another chip totally and maybe another sleeve design to heat sink more.

It's probably not the physical limits of the chip that are causing the reported heat issues. They're too extreme. I believe the leading candidate is the sleeve shorting out the battery, either through a physical connection bridging of the + and - terminals or the converter chip latching up.

[PeterL]

Don't think we have seen decent photos of the AA PCB yet.

True - a lot of the testing so far has been on AAAs, and assuming performance on AAs (more common) will be similar.

The performance on AAs should be abit worse, since the sleeve has to operate over a wider current range, right? The boost converter can't be optimized for more then one point if it's static. If high current AAA setups gives heating problems, then AAs would require another chip totally and maybe another sleeve design to heat sink more.

It could also be better, since there is more space for capacitors and it could have a better inductor.

[ez24]

8 of the AA sleeves arrived with me today, in fact they were delivered last week but i had to pick them up from the post office

open to suggestions as to what to do with them

more testing? blow them up? give some away?

How about just check the fit in what you have and report the results (the fit)

[Mr.B]

OT: This is post number 8087.
Now equal longest thread with https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/

[Godzil]

The article in French is.. This guy does not understand the thing at all::

Avec un appareil en charge active : Partant d’un constat qu’une pile délivre 1.2v en pleine charge, elle s’use parce qu’elle ne tiens plus son courant d’1.2v malgré qu’il reste encore un peu de charge. Vos appareils (télécommande, caméra vidéo etc) eux ont besoin d’un courant maximal : Par exemple 4.8v si vous utilisez 4 piles. Si l’une d’entre elle est morte et ne délivre plus que 0,5v par exemple, votre appareil, en temps normal, ne fonctionnera pas.

Translation:

With an active device: From the constat that a battery give 1.2V when full, it wear because it does not hold it's current of 1.2V even if there are still some charge left. Your devices (remote, camera, ...) need a maximum current: For exemple 4.8V if you use 4 batteries. If one of them is dead and only deliver 0.5, for example, your device will no longuer work

Mixing current and voltage, I don't understand what the "need a maximum current" mean in this context, It would be meaningful with a "minimum current", but maximum?

[Hensingler]

Revive Batteries shared Batteroo's post.
19 hrs ·

Frost & Sullivan appear to be quite a respected organisation that have been around for more than 50 years worldwide. Some of their Australian Awards went to companies such as Telstra, Philips, Microsoft, Samsung, Verizon etc.

Frost & Sullivan seem to have our Darwin man fooled. How does he think Telstra, Philips, Microsoft etc could stop Frost & Sullivan giving them awards? Maybe he should ask Frost & Sullivan if they can make up an award to sell him as well. I'm sure they could photoshop him into one of their presentations for a small fee.

[lpickup]

Here's some interesting reading if you want to peek behind the Frost & Sullivan curtain (read the comments at the end of the blog post...several are from ex-F&S "analysts")

https://billanddave.wordpress.com/2007/06/03/frost-sullivan-award/

Example:

F&S is one big joke. I should know, I used to work there, and wrote many of these awards myself. Yes, the awards are usually selected by a careful analysis… meaning they are given to the company whom they feel will be gullible enough to license the award and purchase the paperweight.

[lpickup]

Here's another snippet from the comments, which seems very relevant to the whole "refuting BS" rant Dave did today:

As someone said, you can never defeat an ignorant man in a conversation.

Possibly based on this quote from Mark Twain:

Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

[SL4P]

Revive Batteries shared Batteroo's post.
19 hrs ·

Frost & Sullivan appear to be quite a respected organisation that have been around for more than 50 years worldwide. Some of their Australian Awards went to companies such as Telstra, Philips, Microsoft, Samsung, Verizon etc.

Frost & Sullivan seem to have our Darwin man fooled. How does he think Telstra, Philips, Microsoft etc could stop Frost & Sullivan giving them awards? Maybe he should ask Frost & Sullivan if they can make up an award to sell him as well. I'm sure they could photoshop him into one of their presentations for a small fee.

Wow!
 50 years... that means those X-ray glasses sold on the back cover of 1950s comic books were real too
I should have bought them back then, they'd be worth a fortune now. 

[Cerebus]

The article in French is.. This guy does not understand the thing at all::

Avec un appareil en charge active : Partant d’un constat qu’une pile délivre 1.2v en pleine charge, elle s’use parce qu’elle ne tiens plus son courant d’1.2v malgré qu’il reste encore un peu de charge. Vos appareils (télécommande, caméra vidéo etc) eux ont besoin d’un courant maximal : Par exemple 4.8v si vous utilisez 4 piles. Si l’une d’entre elle est morte et ne délivre plus que 0,5v par exemple, votre appareil, en temps normal, ne fonctionnera pas.

Translation:

With an active device: From the constat that a battery give 1.2V when full, it wear because it does not hold it's current of 1.2V even if there are still some charge left. Your devices (remote, camera, ...) need a maximum current: For exemple 4.8V if you use 4 batteries. If one of them is dead and only deliver 0.5, for example, your device will no longuer work

Mixing current and voltage, I don't understand what the "need a maximum current" mean in this context, It would be meaningful with a "minimum current", but maximum?

If you're relying on that translation I don't think you can draw any conclusions on the writer's understanding.

My French is pretty ropey after more than thirty years away from the subject, but even taking that into account I can clearly see that the translation falls far short of satisfactory. 

For instance, constat (which wasn't translated) means observation and the sentence fragment "Partant d’un constat qu’une pile délivre 1.2v en pleine charge," translates as "Starting from the observation that a fully charged battery delivers 1.2V," which is a long way from the translation given.

[Brumby]

If you're relying on that translation I don't think you can draw any conclusions on the writer's understanding.

My French is pretty ropey after more than thirty years away from the subject, but even taking that into account I can clearly see that the translation falls far short of satisfactory. 

For instance, constat (which wasn't translated) means observation and the sentence fragment "Partant d’un constat qu’une pile délivre 1.2v en pleine charge," translates as "Starting from the observation that a fully charged battery delivers 1.2V," which is a long way from the translation given.

My French is practically non-existent - but my experience with Google translate can only reinforce what Cerebus has said.  Those translations often need a very broad "interpretive" approach that benefits from understanding the content and making the phrases fit into a construct that makes sense.

Your:

I don't understand what the "need a maximum current" mean in this context,

is an example where this would, I believe, be necessary.  Either that, or learn the original language.

[Don Hills]

...
It's probably not the physical limits of the chip that are causing the reported heat issues. They're too extreme. I believe the leading candidate is the sleeve shorting out the battery, either through a physical connection bridging of the + and - terminals or the converter chip latching up.

Metal case flashlights are often conductive on the inside surface. It could also be Batteroo sleeves shorting out against one another in the style of holder that has the cells side by side. That could be another test - see how durable the coating on the sleeves is.

[jancumps]

It's not google that made the mistake. The French writer says that the battery can't hold a current of 1.2V. He should use the word 'tension' instead of 'courant'.

[dr_frost_dk]

Lets see how long this comment will stay up before it is deleted.

Indie Black
Do you have any comment on why the product performed so poorly in this test?

[FrankBuss]

The other issue with camera flashguns is outdoor cold temperature use. Cold batteries perform poorly so if a batteriser could overcome that it would help.

Well, some of the deleted Indiegogo comments suggest that Batteroo can help heating it up a bit

[kalleboo]

My AA's just arrived. The packaging is "batteroo" including the plastic case, but the sleeves themselves are "batteriser". I did NOT get the letter about active/passive loads. I've included a full scan of the paper sleeve for those who want to investigate their advertising claims. There are no CE markings or anything like that.