Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 2425114 times)

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Offline Hensingler

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8775 on: July 08, 2017, 01:49:53 pm »
High capacity NiMh batteries like eneloops push the limit of the battery dimensions. You see occasional complaints about products where 'fat' rechargeables don't fit or get stuck.

Their 'doesn't fit' problems can only be worse.

 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8776 on: July 08, 2017, 06:12:34 pm »
Will be interesting to see if they are more or less successful this time.
Kickstarter is arguably a bigger market, the rechargable D cell thing is technically a more useful solution than the original Batteriser, but they don't have the same banner 800% bullshit claims.
They are still trying as hard as possible to mislead, even if they are technically accurate. This graph is probably accurate for one particular torch, but the graph is truncated just where the non-boosted torch brightness flattens off and then lasts for two or three times the life of the Batteriser boosted battery.


Ahh, lesson one from "How to Lie with Statistics".
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8777 on: July 09, 2017, 03:23:25 am »
Yep.

First paragraph begins: "Where to put your axes."
 

Offline amspire

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8778 on: July 09, 2017, 03:35:47 am »
It looks like they have taken a torch that can easily last the whole night at a perfectly adequate brightness and turned it into one that will start to dim at midnight and die totally at 1am. Well done!

They keep talking about saving batteries. How are they saving batteries by discharging batteries at double or triple the torch's designed discharge rate?
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8779 on: July 09, 2017, 03:53:06 am »
The waters are being muddied a bit by a secondary benefit.

By maintaining a consistent voltage, the performance of the device is kept consistent.  Sure, the total run time for any given battery will be less, but for a number of people, this might actually be more preferable than extra hours.

This is probably a more honest marketing approach for the chip they are using, but it doesn't sell as well as the idea of getting more juice out of a battery.
 

Offline Hensingler

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8780 on: July 09, 2017, 06:23:05 am »
Ahh, lesson one from "How to Lie with Statistics".

The bigger lie is "KEEPS YOUR FLASHLIGHT AT OPTIMAL....".

The truth is it keeps the cheap crappy flashlight they selected at optimal....

I own 5 flashlights - all LED and all have switch mode current regulation.

Spending $5 on a better flashlight instead of battroo sleeves is a no brainer.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8781 on: July 09, 2017, 07:30:36 am »
Spending $5 on a better flashlight instead of battroo sleeves is a no brainer.

You would think.... but I have seen it before, where people will put in hours and money into making a $2 item - such as a flashlight - perform above and beyond.

I've also seen people put in a couple of hours trying to make a half-hour job easier.



Go figure.
 

Offline meeder

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8782 on: July 09, 2017, 11:20:03 am »
Now that Dave has his nice battery simulator he can do more tests ;)
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8783 on: July 10, 2017, 06:53:19 pm »
 
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Offline Davey_Jonez

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8784 on: July 10, 2017, 10:39:33 pm »
The flashlight(torch) curve they show is for the Smart Shell. That has multiple batteries in it. That will last longer than the single batteries. So, they are going to have brighter and longer with that setup. Yes, much more useful than the previous stuff. 
 

Offline Davey_Jonez

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8785 on: July 10, 2017, 11:08:26 pm »
That is absolutely incorrect.
They have three AA batteries in each D smart shell vs a D battery. If I just use Energizer specs that is 3 X 2300mAH for each Smart Shell vs 2500mAH for each Energizer D battery. So the run time with their Smart Shells has to be longer.  Probably around two times longer run time even with boost. Yes/No?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8786 on: July 10, 2017, 11:14:09 pm »
That is absolutely incorrect.
They have three AA batteries in each D smart shell vs a D battery. If I just use Energizer specs that is 3 X 2300mAH for each Smart Shell vs 2500mAH for each Energizer D battery. So the run time with their Smart Shells has to be longer.  Probably around two times longer run time even with boost. Yes/No?

$1.26 including postage:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Parallel-AA-Battery-Adapter-Holder-1-5V-Case-Box-Converter-3-AA-to-1-D-Size/131912143816

And you are incorrect. An Energizer D cell has 12000mAh capacity at 250mA. More for lower currents
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e95.pdf
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 11:24:11 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8787 on: July 10, 2017, 11:17:57 pm »
The flashlight(torch) curve they show is for the Smart Shell. That has multiple batteries in it. That will last longer than the single batteries. So, they are going to have brighter and longer with that setup. Yes, much more useful than the previous stuff.

Who are you "Davey Jonez"? Do you work for or are affiliated with Batteroo?
 

Offline ez24

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8788 on: July 10, 2017, 11:33:26 pm »

$1.26 including postage:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Parallel-AA-Battery-Adapter-Holder-1-5V-Case-Box-Converter-3-AA-to-1-D-Size/131912143816

Thanks - I just ordered 10 so I can use my Eneloop AA batteries in the few D cell devices I have (dog feeders)  :-+
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8789 on: July 10, 2017, 11:42:45 pm »
BTW, I'm assuming that the Batteroo Reboost D cell holder just puts the cells in parallel like the cheap ebay ones?
If so then any imbalance in the cell charge will be an issue and power will be wasted in the internal ESR which is certainly not ideal.
I doubt they will use 3 separate chips and parallel the outputs? but it's possible.
On second though, given the high current applications for D cells, it would pretty demand that they use separate chips. Unless they want to claim again that the sleeve can magically output any current the battery can.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 12:02:50 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline djos

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8790 on: July 11, 2017, 12:02:45 am »
BTW, I'm assuming that the Batteroo Reboost D cell holder just puts the cells in parallel like the cheap ebay ones?
If so then any imbalance in the cell charge will be an issue and power will be wasted in the internal ESR which is certainly not ideal.
I doubt they will use 3 separate chips and parallel the outputs? but it's possible.

I guess it depends if they want to make a genuinely useful product this time. Should be interesting and maybe even worthwhile if they do include a chip per cell.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Offline amspire

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8791 on: July 11, 2017, 12:06:09 am »
That is absolutely incorrect.
They have three AA batteries in each D smart shell vs a D battery. If I just use Energizer specs that is 3 X 2300mAH for each Smart Shell vs 2500mAH for each Energizer D battery. So the run time with their Smart Shells has to be longer.  Probably around two times longer run time even with boost. Yes/No?
No.

An Energizer Alkaline D cell at 500mA discharge is around 9000mA hours. At 600mA for 2 hours a day, you can get 15 hours of life. That also equates to about 9000mAH. So it stores more energy then 3xAA cells easily. Also you can get NiMH D cells around the 10,000mAH. Where did you get the 2500mAH number for D cells from?

http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e95.pdf

An Energizer AA cell at 500mA/3 = 166mA has a capacity of about 2000mAH, so three of them equate to 6000mAH.

http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e91.pdf
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 12:15:35 am by amspire »
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8792 on: July 11, 2017, 01:07:04 am »
That is absolutely incorrect.
They have three AA batteries in each D smart shell vs a D battery. If I just use Energizer specs that is 3 X 2300mAH for each Smart Shell
vs 2500mAH for each Energizer D battery. ... ...

You have to be kidding.


... ... ...

And you are incorrect. An Energizer D cell has 12000mAh capacity at 250mA. More for lower currents
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e95.pdf

An Energizer Alkaline D cell at 500mA discharge is around 9000mA hours. At 600mA for 2 hours a day, you can get 15 hours of life. That also equates to about 9000mAH. So it stores more energy then 3xAA cells easily. Also you can get NiMH D cells around the 10,000mAH. Where did you get the 2500mAH number for D cells from?

http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e95.pdf

An Energizer AA cell at 500mA/3 = 166mA has a capacity of about 2000mAH, so three of them equate to 6000mAH.

http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e91.pdf


These are numbers that make far more sense to me - and the data sheets just confirm my understanding.


So the run time with their Smart Shells has to be longer.  Probably around two times longer run time even with boost. Yes/No?

Ahhhh ... No.

I find the argument fundamentally incredible - as in - unbelievable, lacking in logic, failing in fact.

Just think for a microsecond ... why do they make 'D' cells?  Aside from greater peak current capacity, it's because they have greater energy capacity, which comes from the volume of the chemistry inside.  Considering the type of chemistry is the same, it can be said pretty conclusively that 3 smaller cylinders of that chemistry that fit in the space of one larger cylinder must ALWAYS have less capacity than the larger cylinder, because the air in between isn't providing any power.


But, then this is Batteroo we're talking about, so perhaps I am missing something where some fundamentals of physics and chemistry can be overruled.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 01:09:00 am by Brumby »
 

Offline Hensingler

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8793 on: July 11, 2017, 01:14:50 am »
Who are you "Davey Jonez"? Do you work for or are affiliated with Batteroo?

He has only posted rubbish to this thread starting almost 2 years ago, he is probably of one of the families' idiot children lacking the imagination to think up a real false name.

Grabbed from the indiegogo site a while ago
Quote
Simon Says
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He is likely the 3rd of these 1$ batteroo shills, or probably all of them.
 

Offline samgab

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8794 on: July 11, 2017, 05:58:02 am »
OMG, so much  :palm: :palm: :palm:

They say in their marketing crap: "Did you know that rechargeable batteries are configured at a lower voltage than their alkaline counterparts?"
That sounds like it was written by someone who has no idea what he is talking about. "Configured at a lower voltage?" Idiots.
Also:


 

Offline ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8795 on: July 11, 2017, 06:18:19 am »


That looks just as dishonest than the Batterizer graphs?!  :o

It seems they are looking at AA batteries here, with the eneloop coming in at ~2000 mAh.
So what AA Alkaline battery did they compare to, which provides only 1000 mAh?!
 

Online HKJ

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8796 on: July 11, 2017, 06:33:14 am »
The curve is probably correct, but it lacking a vital information: The discharge current.

Alkalines has higher voltage than NiMH as is clearly shown by this curve:


But on the other hand NiMH has higher voltage than alkaline most of the time as is clearly shown on this curve:


It depends on the discharge current.
 

Offline samgab

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8797 on: July 11, 2017, 06:37:03 am »


That looks just as dishonest than the Batterizer graphs?!  :o

It seems they are looking at AA batteries here, with the eneloop coming in at ~2000 mAh.
So what AA Alkaline battery did they compare to, which provides only 1000 mAh?!

Actually, that is precisely what the discharge curves look like in real life, with for instance a 1A discharge. Pick any quality Alkaline, Duracell, Panasonic, Energiser.
Here's a real example of a 1A discharge on an eneloop and a Duracell Alkaline:

The eneloop chart is actually completely accurate and honest. Sure it's only at one particular constant current discharge load, but if they used lots of different curves the chart would be unreadable.
-Source: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/CommonAAcomparator.php  Pick some cells and have a play around for yourself. I've done plenty of discharge testing myself, so I'm familiar with the common discharge curves.

lol, looks like HKJ, the source of that charge beat me to it! Thanks HKJ ;)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8798 on: July 11, 2017, 06:50:12 am »
And don't forgot that D size NiHM cells have 10,000mAh capacity, and no loss by having unmatched cells in parallel
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/13542.pdf
Of course there is a case to be made for using standard AA's NiMH instead of D size, but you can buy those adapters for $1.26 on ebay delivered.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #8799 on: July 11, 2017, 06:53:16 am »


That looks just as dishonest than the Batterizer graphs?!  :o

It seems they are looking at AA batteries here, with the eneloop coming in at ~2000 mAh.
So what AA Alkaline battery did they compare to, which provides only 1000 mAh?!

A normal one like an Energizer.
Capacity drops with current, and isn't much more than 1000mAh at 500mA. Try a 1A discharge and it'll be less again, and I'll let you guess the figure...
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e91.pdf
 


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