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EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 01:02:54 pm

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 01:02:54 pm
Dave introduces his Product Baloney Detection Kit, and offers a step-by-step how-to tutorial guide to debunking wild marketing claims on tech products.
In this case the Batteriser, a boost converter that fits around ordinary AA batteries which claims to increase the battery life by up to 800%.
Does it live up to the hype?
http://www.batteriser.com/ (http://www.batteriser.com/)
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html)

Another dunking here on the Neurologica blog:
http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/batteriser-cool-tech-or-scam/ (http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/batteriser-cool-tech-or-scam/)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iEshd6izgk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iEshd6izgk)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 01:22:03 pm
Sorry about the length  :( you know I planed 10 minutes  ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tombi on June 05, 2015, 01:34:44 pm
BOOBIES on the calculator.  :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: station240 on June 05, 2015, 01:58:20 pm
I figured out the losses in the boost convertor would cancel out the gain of lost battery capacity, before Dave got to that point. Couldn't stop laughing.
Battery capacity 80% => 100%
Efficiency 100% => 80% (or less)
Losses 20% => 20% (or worse)

100% efficient at converting your money into junk you don't need.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on June 05, 2015, 02:24:15 pm
Dave -
I'd suggest you add a 20 second introduction before the main video that summarises three or four key points for both arguments - so you can say you've been objective in the best and worst cases.    Up-to, as much as, could, might, should  -- are all 'weasel words'; that have no legal standing!

On the up-side, you've 'possibly' saved them 'up to' $millions in insurance and damage claims to users that installed the product in the wrong products, or the wrong way around!

Edited 18:00 - less word!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: calexanian on June 05, 2015, 02:52:39 pm
That prof should not be allowed to teach anymore..  Clearly he is not teaching critical thinking to his students if he cannot practice it himself.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Razor512 on June 05, 2015, 04:12:22 pm
If the product comes out, can you test it to measure the max current output?

While the claim is complete BS, I do like the boost conversion for use in unregulated flash lights.

PS, some of the cheap china market wireless mice will run down to 0.9V with no problem.

I would like to see a version with an adjustable cutoff to work with rechargeable batteries.

PS, I prefer the longer form videos.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on June 05, 2015, 04:26:44 pm
I knew ONE product which cut of at 1.4V to 1.3V.
Its the ca. 10 to 15 year old digital camera.
It dont run at accumulators because of the drop out voltage.
This thing eats bateries like crazy.

But this product wouldnt be useable because 2 things:
* The clip dont fit in the housing.
* The current this camera is needet is up to multible amps.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: NigelSmith on June 05, 2015, 04:44:39 pm
Hello everybody,

Firstly i'm a big fan of EEVblog and Dave's unique presenting style!

Watched the video this morning and I have to agree with nearly all points presented with one exception, where Dave comments regarding the efficiency of the boost converter circuitry being at best 90% - 95% efficient (the losses becoming heat) and at worst could be down to as little efficiency as only 50% depending upon application.

Dave states that in some applications this device could actually reduce battery life of a product, well theoretically yes it could, but only if you put the stupid batteriser on the battery in the first place!

As long as you only use it once the device has decided that the battery is dead the batteriser can only extend battery life and not actually reduce it at all!

I have made no actual calculations but I personally can't imagine it ever getting more than an extra 10% capacity out of a battery, I can't imagine anywhere near their delusional 800%.

(I have no specific financial interest in the product or its development company, just thought I should point out this obvious fact)

I know this will make the product more awkward as it will need to be carried around separately and then used once the battery is deemed to be flat as opposed to just using it on a new battery, but even their bullshit promotional video shows it being used this way.

Finally no specific comments on the size of the thing, granted it might be very small and thin... but it will definitely extend the length of the battery by, I'm guessing 0.5 - 1.0 mm maybe more, well I have several products where the battery contacts are a tight fit on a standard (non batterised) battery, so how many products this stupid device will actually fit into remains to be seen.

In summary I still agree with Dave, the product isn't worth wasting any money on, but in one area I think he was a little harsh. Quite obviously someone has wasted a huge amount of time and money developing this ridiculous product, so naturally, they have now produced some marketing 'hype' tosh to try and sell as many as possible!

Keep up the good work Dave!

Nigel
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on June 05, 2015, 04:52:51 pm
I have a test device if you need it, Canon Powershor SX-100is, drops out at 1.42 volt per cell, hardly works at all on rechargeables, specs say around 140 shots on alkaline and 400 on NMiH. Really Canon where did you get them there numbers from you stupid pack of morons. It's only saving grace is that it has an external power jack so I can still get some use out of it on a 18650. Works on the new Energiser Ultimate Lithium but only because the initial voltage is around 1.8 volt.

Good job Canon lost me forever. :--
I regain the unused 80 odd percent in my old AA Maglights and other toys.

Muttley
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 05:05:14 pm
Watched the video this morning and I have to agree with nearly all points presented with one exception, where Dave comments regarding the efficiency of the boost converter circuitry being at best 90% - 95% efficient (the losses becoming heat) and at worst could be down to as little efficiency as only 50% depending upon application.

Pretty sure I mentioned that.

Quote
Dave states that in some applications this device could actually reduce battery life of a product, well theoretically yes it could, but only if you put the stupid batteriser on the battery in the first place!
As long as you only use it once the device has decided that the battery is dead the batteriser can only extend battery life and not actually reduce it at all!

They say on their website:
Quote
1. Extend Battery Life. Batteriser’s patented technology extends the life of your batteries up to 8x.
2. Works On Most “Used” Batteries Too. Take those batteries out of the trash and instantly extend their life up to 8x.

So it seems they envisage the main usage scenario to be used with new batteries.
If you don only use it with "dead" batteries to get some extra life, then there is certainly some benefit to that in probably the majority of cases.

Quote
Finally no specific comments on the size of the thing, granted it might be very small and thin... but it will definitely extend the length of the battery by, I'm guessing 0.5 - 1.0 mm maybe more, well I have several products where the battery contacts are a tight fit on a standard (non batterised) battery, so how many products this stupid device will actually fit into remains to be seen.

I'd love to see the finished product, and it would be intriguing to see how they have miniaturised the converter.
Guess we have to wait for the Indigogo campaign to order one?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 05:07:23 pm
If the product comes out, can you test it to measure the max current output?

Yes, I'll order one when it comes out.
I'm curious to see its performance.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on June 05, 2015, 05:08:33 pm
I dunno, I think they'll try to productise it through crowd-funding - no open source sharing.
a company, university etc...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 05:13:07 pm
I dunno, I think they'll try to productise it through crowd-funding

Yes, the article says they will be putting it on Indiegogo.
Not sure why they don't use Kickstarter? they obviously have a real prototype, so satisfies the requirement.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on June 05, 2015, 05:16:03 pm
Aah, I didn't see that.  Was it in the PCworld article - I didn't go into that.
That may dissuade them from legal paths, if they don't have 'real' money!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 05:23:02 pm
Aah, I didn't see that.  Was it in the PCworld article - I didn't go into that.

Yes, the PC World article:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html)
I'll back it when it goes live in late June. Delivery slated for September.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on June 05, 2015, 05:25:19 pm
I dunno, I think they'll try to productise it through crowd-funding

Yes, the article says they will be putting it on Indiegogo.
Not sure why they don't use Kickstarter? they obviously have a real prototype, so satisfies the requirement.

Maybe they assume there must be more gullible "funders" on Indiegogo since there's more questionable projects to be found there? ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on June 05, 2015, 05:26:56 pm
Gotta say that I love the way you rip the heart out of these get-rich-quick shysters.
Soon you'll have them contacting you before they promote products - so they might catch fundamental flaws before they make fools of themselves!!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 05:31:04 pm
Maybe they assume there must be more gullible "funders" on Indiegogo since there's more questionable projects to be found there? ;)

I think they'd do a lot better on Kickstarter. It's more credible than Indiegogo and has a much larger user base.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on June 05, 2015, 05:32:02 pm
Not any more - after your review!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daqq on June 05, 2015, 05:32:36 pm
Dave: I love these debunking videos of yours! Thanks!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 05:36:17 pm
Soon you'll have them contacting you before they promote products - so they might catch fundamental flaws before they make fools of themselves!!

I've already had quite a few crowd funding campaigns do that actually.
Batteroo are most welcome to send a pre-release one into the Mailbag segment.
I suspect the campaign, even on Indiegogo will be a winner. It's price point is just too compelling for people not to try it.
And it's likely true that you would get your money back in power saved if you used it on just dead batteries.
That doesn't stop the downsides of course, but many will look at it from just that perspective.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 05:46:06 pm
Not any more - after your review!

Nope, my video will amount to a hill of beans. Target audience for this product is Joe Average, and not electronics design people on my channel. Electronics people can instantly see the many downsides to it, so likely never would have bought it.
You wait, the campaign will go bangbusters.
Actually, I want it to get funded so I can actually get one to check out the miniaturisation and how they are doing that.

IMO they would have been far better off putting it in a clip on attachment for 9V batteries somehow . That is more of a problem than AA/AAA powered devices, and the batteries are more expensive. Plus potentially more room for bigger and better magnetics, less maximum current requirement, and no shorting problem.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on June 05, 2015, 06:01:13 pm
When I first saw this thread, it reminded me of a gadget I intended to develop - primarily for kids toys... but almost anything that 'gets left on'...  exactly the same form factor.

A one-shot that turns a FET on with the power switch, and while 'in range' current consumption. (C)2005. MDC/SL4P

If the unit is idle, or over-current for more than a hard-coded period (e.g. idle 2 mins, over-current 5 secs), it shuts off until the power supply is recycled.
Save batteries and kids from grinding their toys to death!

Unfortunately, my situation has me dead in their water for the last few years - so these ideas are just a dream now.  I'll share if someone else's wants to do it!    Call me!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 06:06:54 pm
Finally no specific comments on the size of the thing, granted it might be very small and thin... but it will definitely extend the length of the battery by, I'm guessing 0.5 - 1.0 mm maybe more, well I have several products where the battery contacts are a tight fit on a standard (non batterised) battery, so how many products this stupid device will actually fit into remains to be seen.

Yes, remains to be seen what the production version can and can't fit into. If it's 0.1mm as claimed then that should be good enough for a majority of products?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: G7PSK on June 05, 2015, 06:15:57 pm
I find that many products battery holders are already a tight fit for the battery so the extra length from one of these will prevent the insertion of the battery.
At one time (in the 60's) I used U2 (D size now) in a torch and when the bulb dimmed to a point where the torch was useless I would put the batteries into a transistor radio which would run for month's on what was otherwise a dead set of batteries, this was down to the inherent rise in internal resistance of the batteries of the time. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on June 05, 2015, 06:17:44 pm
I didn't read the literature but if the technology is so good then why stay small,
example ; Solar System Batteries, Rechargeable Cars, UPS Batteries. etc.

Did somebody mention a dastardly plan..... :-//

Muttley

Miniature, yes now I see, anyway I got a good dig at Canon, been wanting to get that out for a while.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 06:19:47 pm
I didn't read the literature but if the technology is so good then why stay small,
example ; Solar System Batteries, Rechargeable Cars, UPS Batteries. etc.

Their key tech seems to be in ultra militarisation, something you don't really need for that big boy stuff.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: fubar.gr on June 05, 2015, 06:35:45 pm
I didn't read the literature but if the technology is so good then why stay small,
example ; Solar System Batteries, Rechargeable Cars, UPS Batteries. etc.

Did somebody mention a dastardly plan..... :-//

Muttley

Miniature, yes now I see, anyway I got a good dig at Canon, been wanting to get that out for a while.
The whole concept is about draining the last drop out of primary batteries. Doing that on rechargeables doesnt make sense. It would simply kill the battery.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: coppice on June 05, 2015, 06:45:11 pm
That prof should not be allowed to teach anymore..  Clearly he is not teaching critical thinking to his students if he cannot practice it himself.
If you applied a little critical thinking you should realise that you have no idea of the context in which that professor said anything.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Zeph on June 05, 2015, 06:45:38 pm
There are a few issues you didn't mention.

As you have described, most devices will work down to 1.0-1.1v/cell. 

Consider (using simple figures) a battery depleted to 1.0v/cell and still working in the device, at say 100ma.  Insert the batterizer and the voltage gets boosted to 1.5v/cell - but that extra 0.5V/cell is probably going to be wasted as heat!  Meanwhile even if the boost converter was 100% efficient, you'd be draining the battery at 150ma@1v to produce 100ma@1.5v with the device using only 1.0v of that - a major efficiency loss!  Add in real world boost converter efficiency (in such a tiny space at such a low cost) and the situation is probably much worse, say 200 to 300ma (75-50% boost efficiency)  from the battery to produce 100ma to the device.

And it gets worse.  With that 150-300ma coming from the battery, you waste more power as heat through the battery's ESR resistance, and due to that and battery chemistry the battery voltage drops further, raising the input/output current ratios further even at the same boost efficiency, but the boost efficiency probably decreases as well.

And - look at the battery curves - as you increase the current drawn, you move to the steeper discharge curves on the left.  You show the wasted power as the area to the right of the cutoff voltage box *at the same current*, but instead consider transposing the steeper curves to that location (to the right of the box).

In the best case, the device itself is using a switching regulator, such that it will draw less current as the input voltage rises, so not all of that extra voltage (eg: raising battery 1.0v up to 1.5v to device) is wasted as heat.  But then we have the tiny Batterizer switching regulator feeding the device switching regulator; even in this best case, you are wasting power rather than saving it.

The only niche I can see is an old device which really does need 1.4v/cell input, where even will all the losses of the Batterizer, you might actually get enough gain from extracting more battery juice to have a modest net gain in total results.  Not 800% of course.

And - discharging the cells to low voltage may make them more likely to leak.  Not as bad aa pitfall s the shorting you mention (or mechanically jamming in tight battery cases), but another downside.

---

One other niche - using 1.2v rechargables in a device which needs higher voltage (at modest currents).  We all know of some devices which haven't worked well with rechargeables, so this is a more common use case.  However if it really discharges the battery to 0.6v, that's going to damage some rechargables.  If this boosted 1.0-1.3v to 1.5v with high efficiency and cut off at 1.0v (or 1.1 or 1.05v) to protect the battery, it might actually have a meaningful use, oddly enough - adapting some devices to use NiMH batteries.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on June 05, 2015, 06:49:46 pm
@fubar.gr
Yes, you make a fair point, I just thought that if you were going to milk a battery to death then why not go the whole hog.

Muttley
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: KedasProbe on June 05, 2015, 07:23:25 pm
BOOBIES on the calculator.  :-+
Baloney! they are not real.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rerouter on June 05, 2015, 07:43:10 pm
how easily recognizable the sound of someone performing a face-palm is via audio only has made me reflect on the people i spend time with...

If the battery has already drained below the low voltage cutoff, then and only then would i support the product, and they entirely could have marketed it as that and still made a profit (maybe less of one), if its efficiency at very low loads isnt too horrible, i may even buy one, just disappointing in the marketing approach,
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on June 05, 2015, 08:17:27 pm
great video Dave  :-+

will be interesting to see these tested... properly
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 08:29:30 pm
If the battery has already drained below the low voltage cutoff, then and only then would i support the product, and they entirely could have marketed it as that and still made a profit (maybe less of one), if its efficiency at very low loads isnt too horrible, i may even buy one, just disappointing in the marketing approach,

I agree. Could have been a successful without all the exaggeration. People sell boost converters like this, just not in this funky form factor, that alone would put them a head in this game.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 08:30:03 pm
will be interesting to see these tested... properly

Delivery in September apparently.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ErikI on June 05, 2015, 08:34:14 pm
Maybe someone has mentioned it and I missed it, but there is another downside to this product.
As most of the battery indicators and low battery warning systems are based on measuring the voltage of the battery, they will not work anymore due to the 1.5V constant voltage.
So you will get no warning that your battery is close to being dead and the device will just die suddenly.
A major downside in my mind.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 08:45:37 pm
So you will get no warning that your battery is close to being dead and the device will just die suddenly.
A major downside in my mind.

Yes, I forgot to mention this. i added it in annotation. I agree, a huge downside, your product will show 100% battery and then just fail instantly.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: good_cap/bad_cap on June 05, 2015, 08:48:15 pm
I think leakage could be another issue if you run down batteries that low... (?) It could damage both the batteriser and the device drive by it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on June 05, 2015, 08:49:31 pm
I wonder if I'm the only one to notice that even the basic mathematics are wrong?
If "usually" 80% are thrown away and this product could use all of these remaining 80%, it would extend the battery life from 20% to 100%.
This is a factor of 5, not 8. When we use a comparative as in "more" (capacity) or "longer" (time), the original capacity/runtime would be extended by 400%.

E.g. let's assume a toy bunny that could drum 100 hours if every bit of capacity in its batteries was used, but because of the 20% assumption it would "usually" stop after 20 hours.
Now with the magic device, the bunny could drum 100 hours, which means that it can drum five time as long:
The improved capacity would be 500% of the originally usable capacity.
However, if we are talking about much longer the bunny can drum, it's 80 hours longer which is a plus of 400%:
The capacity would be improved by 400% of the originally usable capacity.

Even ignoring all the other stuff, there is no way that the runtime of any device could be increased by 800% with the "only 20% used" assumption.
To justify a "8 times as long" claim, the usable capacity would have to be 12.5% (100%/8).
To justify a "8 times longer" claim, the usable capacity would have to be 11.11% (100%/9).
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on June 05, 2015, 08:59:54 pm
I think that the specific application would need to be considered, for instance if I were 1500 meters from a recharging station and couldn't get a tow then I would  have no hesitation in pressing the ULDO Bypass button, and neither would Scotty if the captain needed phasers.

Muttley

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on June 05, 2015, 10:30:53 pm
Related:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/energy-harvesting-of-used-batteries/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/energy-harvesting-of-used-batteries/)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/batteryvampire/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/batteryvampire/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on June 05, 2015, 11:33:38 pm
Great video Dave. Classic EEVblog! 😀
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: VK3DRB on June 06, 2015, 12:17:53 am
From http://www.recyclinginternational.com/recycling-news/8815/e-scrap-and-batteries/united-states/bringing-used-batteries-back-dead (http://www.recyclinginternational.com/recycling-news/8815/e-scrap-and-batteries/united-states/bringing-used-batteries-back-dead)

"This innovation could spell bad news for a world battery industry worth nearly US$ 90 billion. It also has the potential, say the researchers, to shrink the annual volume of battery waste in landfills by a factor of eight." These "researchers" or the media are speaking frogshit.

It reminded me of the famous car racing driver Peter Brock and his :bullshit: Energy Polarizer. He believed the Energy Polariser (containing crystals and a magnet) would align the molecules of the car. :-DD

More frogshit...
A bloke down the road actually told me that Herbal Life products cures cancer, but the doctors are all keeping it secret because they would lose money from the cancer business.  :palm:
An ELECTRONIC ENGINEER told me flaxseed oil cures cancer, but the doctors are all keeping it secret because they would lose money from the cancer business. :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: zapta on June 06, 2015, 12:38:49 am
Dave, at the ~6.20 mark you ignored the '... to many devices' part of the sentence.

Another saving can come from lower current at the high voltage period of the battery life, assuming high dc/dc efficiency.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Artlav on June 06, 2015, 01:48:58 am
I wonder why haven't they made a real product instead, namely boosting a NiMH battery from 1.2V to 1.4V?

Many things don't work too well on rechargeables, and many people don't pay attention to them enough to stop using them before they are below the safe discharge voltage.

Make a Batteriser-like clip on for a rechargeable battery that boosts it to 1.4V and cuts off at 0.8V cell voltage, and you'd have a real, good and useful product that will easily extend rechargeable battery total life by a couple factors on average, and discharge time by a good fraction quite likely.

Instead, they go for a pure scam.
Just why...?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ebastler on June 06, 2015, 02:11:36 am
Hey, I am convinced the Batteriser will work as advertised! Just look at their claim 1 of their patent application, https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943 (https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943):

Quote
A battery sleeve for extending the operational life of one or more batteries, comprising:
a positive conductive electrode; and
an insulating layer extending below the conductive electrode such that when the sleeve is coupled to a battery, the positive conductive electrode is positioned above the positive terminal of the battery with the insulating layer electrically isolating the positive conductive electrode from the positive terminal of the battery.

Just insert an insulator between the battery terminal and the connected device. Darn if that doesn't extend the battery life by at least 800%! :-DD

(Yes, I know. It's just a patent application, and you always start with ridiculously broad claims -- gotta try what you can get away with... But I have not seen a claim construction this ridiculuos in a while!)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tchicago on June 06, 2015, 02:26:33 am
Folks, remember good ole days of cell phone "antenna boosters"? When every single average Joe was truly convinced that attaching a sticker to the cellphone was drastically improving the cellphone reception. And it was impossible to prove otherwise, because "my cell reception just became a lot better". Oh, yeah, and you were supposed to attach the sticker under the battery.

Those were the days... and they are coming back. There is some psychological phenomenon of trying to justify a purchase even if it was a complete mistake. Bread and butter for scammers of all kinds.

V2 product will probably be inserted between the smartphone battery and the smartphone.  :-DD  The smartphone discharge pattern is highly randomized by a lot of external factors, so even though the device will do exactly nothing, it will be hard to make a valid before/after battery life comparison outside the electronics lab.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: erfly44 on June 06, 2015, 03:03:05 am
Hi Dave, and all,

I do agree with Zeph, the more the current drawn, the more the ESR resistance effect degrade the performance of the Alkaline battery.

So the test with a lab power supply doesn't reflect the reality.

For example, my Sony TCD-D8 indicates 'low battery' when the voltage of the cells is between 1,284V and 1,288V!!!
http://synthelectro-fr.blogspot.fr/2015/05/alternatives-aux-piles-alcalines-15v.html (http://synthelectro-fr.blogspot.fr/2015/05/alternatives-aux-piles-alcalines-15v.html) (in French, sorry)

In fact, when the device use a lot of milli Amps, for example greather than 100mA, NEVER use Alkaline Battery but
lithium battery, the power density and the constant voltage is incredibly better!

For very low power devices like remote control, low power hf like NRF components, you can use Alkaline battery,
and better, the very low cost battery because they fall very quickly under 1.1V, so you are sure to use it TOTALLY,
that is never the case of the Duracell...

And about the Batteriser? The problem isn't there, but I am curious about the suite!

And Dave : I like a lot your work and never miss a video  ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on June 06, 2015, 03:03:43 am
Oh, yeah, and you were supposed to attach the sticker under the battery.
I thought these stickers got sold to protect the brain of the user!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on June 06, 2015, 03:18:45 am
Oh, yeah, and you were supposed to attach the sticker under the battery.
I thought these stickers got sold to protect the brain of the user!

Both, and it was the same sticker!  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on June 06, 2015, 03:24:58 am
I didn't read the literature but if the technology is so good then why stay small,
example ; Solar System Batteries, Rechargeable Cars, UPS Batteries. etc.

Their key tech seems to be in ultra militarisation, something you don't really need for that big boy stuff.

There's plenty of money in defence contracts :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mushroom on June 06, 2015, 03:44:46 am
I think that this product
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mushroom on June 06, 2015, 04:03:29 am
I think that this product *COULD* be interesting in certain circumstances !

Some time ago, I had a look into the box where my wife and my daughter drop their used batteries. MOST OF THEM where 1.3 to 1.4 V !!! About 30 batteries in a box containing 40 to 50. I dont know all the gadgets they use batteries for, but the devices did'nt work anymore, and they said "bat lo"... This is measurements, not only readings.

But I have a mouse which claims very long battery life, and most likely includes a boost converter (dont remember exactly, but it is what I have been thinking of when I got it : a Microsoft touch mouse). The mouse works until the batteries reach 0.9 or 1.0 V (to be verified).

I run this mouse for months with used batteries only ! (less than 1.3 V)

This product could be interesting for old devices. I imagine that many low power more recent devices already include boost converters (?).

IMHO, product is not BS, but advertising is.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 06, 2015, 04:09:57 am
Fail.

You're not supposed to put this on a new battery and use it all the time, you're supposed to put it on a 'dead' battery so you can keep on using it a bit longer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 06:17:38 am
An alkaline AA battery that measures 1.4V~1.3V open voltage, is usually unusable in a device that requires 1.1V or more to operate properly (~100mA).
A voltage booster will indeed prolong the life of the battery, by using energy available below its end voltage (0.8V). It is actually mentioned in a Duracell guidance document linked below.
The novelty lies in the reduced size of the converter circuit, which can fit on top of a standard battery.
The 800% increase in battery life seems far fetched though and would have to be confirmed independently.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=155311;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=155315;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=155317;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dentaku on June 06, 2015, 06:26:35 am
So that's what Jon Philips is doing these days. He used to be at Maximum PC.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Unixon on June 06, 2015, 06:44:47 am
Sorry about the length  :( you know I planed 10 minutes  ;D
Good job, Dave. IMO, the longer the better. Especially when it is a teardown, a review or a tutorial. Hasty shallow videos are quite disappointing and no fun at all.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 0b01010011 on June 06, 2015, 06:45:25 am
more energy/voltage confusion, not to mention 'Wi-Fi will power the universe' bs from none other than the BBC

Power beamed to camera via wi-fi
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33020523 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33020523)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 06, 2015, 07:49:39 am
Hello there,

The video was pretty nice, i watched the whole thing.

When i first heard about this product i looked at the data sheets and found that if the device cuts out at about 1.3v then the 'new' product could provide about 300 percent of the normal run time, which is 200 percent more.  But then after looking at other data such as internal resistance and most boost converters efficiency (it goes down for a lot of reasons) i had to bring that down to 200 percent total, which is only a 100 percent gain.  That's at least something, but again, we cant forget, that is if the device cuts out at 1.3v.  I dont think i have any devices that cut out that high, and if we allow that threshold to drop to 1.2v, then we dont get a real lot more out of it, if anything.

What i think they should do is buck up to the fact that they have a really dippy product, and instead of trying to pass it off as is, sell it as a battery booster that can boost an AA cell up to maybe 3 to 4 volts or maybe even 9v.  At least then it might be worth something.  But yes, then there is the all important question of just how much current can it really put out since it is so small.  We'd have to actually test one to be sure.  Small MOSFETs and small inductors can do a decent amount of current these days, but the package they are using is not just small, it's super small.

Another question i had was about the physical size.  Just how much longer does it make the AA cell.  If it's even a small amount longer it could actually ruin the original contacts of the device it is being used in, making it impossible to use with regular batteries after a time.  It could even crack the plastic housing of an AA or double AA housing if it is that cheap styrene type, or warp other types of plastics.

This reminds me of the old Rayovac rechargeable alkalines.  Anyone remember them?  They only took a charge like 15 times when the claim was much much higher.  But they did work in my TI programmable calculator because they had higher terminal voltage.  That was the only thing they were good for however.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mcinque on June 06, 2015, 08:29:11 am
Dave, thank you for the video. I really enjoy when you debunk scams like that. The part where you describe the issue with the + of the battery and the metal chassis of the batterizer was a total ROTFL.  :-DD :-DD

Thanks again!  :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: thewyliestcoyote on June 06, 2015, 09:05:21 am
Dave Great Video,
Thanks,

I am working for a company that is working on very long lived low power devices. One of my junior engineers found this product and yesterday very loudly pushed it all the way up to the owner of the company (Not me and they are not a engineer). Needless to say this took a couple of hours to explain to them on why this is BULL SHIT and would not work and why this should not be designed into everything we are doing.

Dave you explanation was much better than mine,

Thanks
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LaurenceW on June 06, 2015, 09:50:56 am
Battery life on just about all moderm electronics products is their achilles' heel. To gain commercial advantage, manufacturers will pull every trick in the book to make THEIR gizmo last longer than a competitor's, by better battery management and, where applicable, buck/boost converters in their power conditioning circuits.

So IF some external electronic snake-oil was going to have ANY effect on product longevity (on one set of batteries), don't you think that the manufacturers would have already built the same technology into their products, for the competitive edge it would give them? Only they don't do it, because it doesn't work (for 90% of all devices).

Isn't it mildly depressing how gullible so many people can be, about these sort of stories?  Then again, it also amazes me that 7% of Americans belive the moon landings were faked (Source:Space.com); so perhaps I should be depressed yes, but not surprised, about this fake. Pass me my homeopathic headache tablets!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kedwards22 on June 06, 2015, 10:03:32 am
Another thing to consider is conducted/radiated noise. To get the magnetics small the boost converter is probably running in the MHz range and there's no space for shielding or effective output filtering. There's also a good chance that the converter is not fixed frequency, maybe a simpler fixed on time control scheme. In that case the switching frequency and noise will be all over the spectrum. Good luck using it in a wireless device.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: DanielS on June 06, 2015, 10:52:08 am
I had a 1GB MPIO MP3 player that was nearly hopeless on AAA NiMH batteries so I ended up connecting it to an external AA battery to get a day out of the thing. I never measured what its cut-off voltage was but I would guess it was not very far down the NiMH discharge curve.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: NiHaoMike on June 06, 2015, 01:35:16 pm
One case where a large percentage of the battery capacity is wasted is in high drain devices like digital cameras. But such a booster will not be useful for that and the only way to use the remaining capacity is in lower drain devices like clocks.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SaabFAN on June 06, 2015, 02:32:22 pm
The 800% figure could hold up when taking a medium current device like a Xbox-Controller and one of these ultra-cheap Alkalines.
In my experience, the cheap ones can cause the controller to fail at 1,3V Open-Loop Cell-Voltage.
Good batteries and Ni-Mh Accumulators can power my controller down to 1,1V or even 0,9V (accumulator).

What is missing in the video: Discharging an Alkaline right down to the point where it is completely empty highly increases the chance that it starts leaking.
Try leaving a fresh battery inside a powered flashlight (the old ones without LEDs) for 3 or 4 days and they most likely start spilling their guts.

The only place where I can see a real use for these devices: LED Flashlights that use only a resistor with the LED in series, instead of a proper Driver-IC (Which I assume is true for about 90% of all available types of LED-Flashlights). With the Batteriser, there would be no fading of the light-intensity when the battery-voltage drops. Only problem there: Most of these LED-Lamps I know use one or several AAA-Batteries.

So in conclusion, it is, and probably will be for quite some time, cheaper, greener and generally better to just use Accumulators, like I'm doing for about 10 years now :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ebastler on June 06, 2015, 04:30:46 pm
Maybe the Batteriser founder has simply misunderstood the expert he asked for a statement...

Dr. Kiumars Parvin of San Jose State University is quoted to have said: “We tested the Batteriser sleeve in our lab and we confirmed that the Batteriser taps into 80 percent of energy that is usually thrown away,”.  He did not say "... taps into the 80 percent of energy that is usually thrown away." He probably mant to say - or maybe even said, and is quoted incorrectly: "... taps into 80 percent of the energy that is usually thrown away." That would actually make sense, taking the converter losses and some remaining unusable capacity at <0.6V into account.

Just omitting a single word makes that quote so much more effective in advertising  ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 06, 2015, 04:45:26 pm
Fail.
You're not supposed to put this on a new battery and use it all the time, you're supposed to put it on a 'dead' battery so you can keep on using it a bit longer.

Read their website, that is not what they imply. Use on new batteries seems the primary usage scenario.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bitwelder on June 06, 2015, 05:27:13 pm
As 1.5V batteries as often used in series, is there any issue related to have a series of boost converters?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on June 06, 2015, 06:34:06 pm
Just came across this website:

The Baloney Detection Kit: Carl Sagan’s Rules for Bullshit-Busting and Critical Thinking
http://www.brainpickings.org/2014/01/03/baloney-detection-kit-carl-sagan/ (http://www.brainpickings.org/2014/01/03/baloney-detection-kit-carl-sagan/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: G7PSK on June 06, 2015, 06:36:11 pm
As the battery gets run down not only the voltage drops but so is it's ability to discharge at the same current. therefore even if you bring the voltage up again due to the current draw many devices still wont work. In fact you will need a greater current as you are converting current to voltage with the boost circuit. But of course on this forum we are all trying to teach granny to suck eggs to some extent, put the device on a supermarket shelf and it will fly off and do exactly what it is intended to do-Make money.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on June 06, 2015, 06:44:27 pm
I have got to admit, the more I think of it, the more I think this man is a genius. If you can make a boost converter so small that it fit's on a battery, that's a top job, regardless the specs of this converter.

But than he hires a Uni-dr. to do some tests on his product, and then get's him to do a nice quote on camera. That quote was of course all he came to the uni for, Dr. Parvin probably didn't have a clue what was really going on. (Well that's what I can image has happened, I'm actually really interested in Dr. Parvin's side of the story here).

And than someone broke into his office, and turns this event into his favour by concluding they were after the IP. (sublimative message: It was the established industry).

But guys like this will always be there, heck they might even believe in their product.
And exaggerating the benefits of your own product isn't new either, just watch the commercials.

IMHO We should point a the media here who write about this without any reservation. How can you not be sceptical after reading 800% improvement? These journalist are just so horny for getting a scoop, that they just don't mind giving a podium to people that don't deserve it. And just read the reactions on those sites, and see how many people actually believe in this crap.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 06, 2015, 07:05:26 pm
But than he hires a Uni-dr. to do some tests on his product, and then get's him to do a nice quote on camera.

The thing I don't get is why he even had to do that?

Look at his LinkedIn profile:
Quote
Prior to Batteriser, Dr. Roohparvar served as CEO and President of Flexpower, a subsidiary of Flextronics. After being told it couldn't be done, Dr. Roohparvar and his team re-designed the original iPhone charger, reducing size by 40% and creating the smallest charger in the world. Prior to Flexpower, Dr. Roohparvar served as Vice President and General Manager at Broadcom, in charge of their Power Management Business Unit. In addition to launching Batteriser, Dr. Roohparvar is also a professor at California State University, East Bay, teaching computer science and computer engineering classes. Dr. Roohparvar received his Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering from Iowa State University.

A guy with that experience isn't capable of thoroughly testing it himself and presenting the results in a way that proves it works as claimed?  :-//
Products like this don't need BS marketing numbers, it will sell itself. The miniaturization tech which he seems to specialise in must be impressive to fit in the space. I can't wait to see it myself, I'll buy some when they go on pre-sale.
To ruin it with silly pie-in-the-sky marketing numbers is a real shame. At the price it would have still sold like hot cakes if they simply said 50% extra life or whatever on average.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on June 06, 2015, 07:42:53 pm
The thing I don't get is why he even had to do that?
I would say only for marketing.

All that the crowd reads here is: "This device is confirmed by an independent authority".

...
Look at his LinkedIn profile:
Quote
..Dr. Roohparvar is also a professor at California State University, ...

Wow, I just wonder why they didn't put that in the PCWorld article.

I'm starting to get a bad vibe about universities in California now...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on June 06, 2015, 07:59:45 pm
...At the price it would have still sold like hot cakes if they simply said 50% extra life or whatever on average.
Yes, and if that was how they had put it, I would probably actually be positive about myself..
(though cautious to recommend it to others, since you do need to understand when and how to use it).

About the price: What kind of production numbers do you think they're targeting at? It must be huge I would say, and they already mentioned the price, so they really need a big start on their IGG campaign don't they?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Grapsus on June 06, 2015, 08:01:11 pm
Those kinds of marketing stunts really make me loose faith in humanity. The technical guy who designed the converter knows that their claims are bullshit, the marketing guys are even worse because they invented the bullshit. Then you have all those shitty tech magazines who probably have doubts but do nothing to verify what they publish, because if they did they would be unable to come with this giant headline and lose potential audience. I doubt releasing the product is in their interests, the real goal is to build a lot of hype around their startup so that a lot of venture capitalists fight in order to "fund" them. And their product is just perfect for duping any kind of investor: "look this battery is dead and when we plug our thingie on it, it comes alive again by tapping into all this wasted energy".

So what's the future for the Batteriser ? If they succeed in their little scam, they'll be able to get more than a million dollars. Then they'll rent offices in Sunnyvale, hire their friends. Maybe finally release something. And since real people won't use it, they'll be screwed.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 08:19:40 pm
Why do you think this is a scam? The voltage boost technology has been around for a while. The battery manufacturers are well aware of the wasted energy in their product and how to recover some of it.
The miniaturization of the circuit in this gizmo is the clincher.
The 800% battery life increase may even be true in some extreme case. We know marketing will naturally concentrate on those figures to grab the headlines. With most devices cutting out below 1V, the normal battery life extension is more likely to be around 20%, according to the Duracell constant power discharge curve.

This is an electronic blog. Someone here should have the equipment and the skills to disprove the claims with some hard testing of batteries, instead of everybody dismissing it all, out of hand.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on June 06, 2015, 08:35:14 pm
The 800% battery life increase may even be true in some extreme case.
As mentioned before (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg687566/#msg687566), an increase by 800% would mean that only about 11% of the capacity would be used under normal conditions. Not taking into account efficiency etc. I guess it will be extremely difficult to find one case where this is the case.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr Simpleton on June 06, 2015, 08:41:23 pm
Running a battery at 100 mA and 1.5 volt down to say 1V then put the gizmo on... means you will take 150 mA (in a perfect world) out of the poor battery, which is depleted already.

With increasing Ri this thing will go down hill real fast  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: k2teknik on June 06, 2015, 08:50:10 pm
I'm actually really interested in Dr. Parvin's side of the story here
Give him an email at kiumars.parvin@sjsu.edu
Hi looks to exist: http://www.sjsu.edu/people/kiumars.parvin/ (http://www.sjsu.edu/people/kiumars.parvin/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 08:51:59 pm
Running a battery at 100 mA and 1.5 volt down to say 1V then put the gizmo on... means you will take 150 mA (in a perfect world) out of the poor battery, which is depleted already.

With increasing Ri this thing will go down hill real fast  :-DD

Wrong. Look at the most efficient constant power curve of the Duracell AA battery. There is no significant time curve dip below 1V, down to 0.7V.
The internal battery resistance doesn't increase until below that voltage.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Grapsus on June 06, 2015, 08:58:12 pm
Why do you think this a scam? The voltage boost technology has been around for a while. The battery manufacturers are well aware of the wasted energy in their product and how to recover some of it.

We all agree that some additional energy can be squeezed out of batteries with a boost converter. Would such a converter achieve any significant gain for the user ? Simple technical considerations show that no, unless we talk about some very rare badly designed products. Therefore their claims are false and the end-users will never get what is advertised to them. This is the definition of a scam.

In the same way, the "white van" audio system does produce sound. Does it meet its high fidelity claims ? No. Same thing.

With Batteriser, the scam is even more elaborated because their real target are probably the silicon valley investors.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 09:15:08 pm
I wouldn't call a probable 20% gain for most devices insignificant. Your technical considerations are based on flawed principles, like battery voltage that can't be used below 0.8V coupled with supposedly high battery internal resistance.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 09:41:08 pm
The 800% battery life increase may even be true in some extreme case.
As mentioned before (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg687566/#msg687566), an increase by 800% would mean that only about 11% of the capacity would be used under normal conditions. Not taking into account efficiency etc. I guess it will be extremely difficult to find one case where this is the case.

They only need one instance to make the statement true. Totally misleading, but we wouldn't be talking about their gizmo if they had only claimed an average of 20% increase. So the advertising fib paid off.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on June 06, 2015, 09:42:41 pm
Battery life on just about all moderm electronics products is their achilles' heel. To gain commercial advantage, manufacturers will pull every trick in the book to make THEIR gizmo last longer than a competitor's, by better battery management and, where applicable, buck/boost converters in their power conditioning circuits.

So IF some external electronic snake-oil was going to have ANY effect on product longevity (on one set of batteries), don't you think that the manufacturers would have already built the same technology into their products, for the competitive edge it would give them? Only they don't do it, because it doesn't work (for 90% of all devices).
This, exactly. What's stopping designers from putting boost converters in?

In fact, most devices with electronics either will cut out completely around 0.7-0.8V anyway, or already have boost converters to generate the right voltages. Adding another boost step just lowers the overall efficiency so that extra bit of energy at the end might not ever be used to do useful work.

The "80 percent of the energy that is usually thrown away" quote might even be referring to their ultraminiature boost converter having only 80% efficiency...  which is not that great.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: max_torque on June 06, 2015, 09:46:30 pm
What do we know:

1) on "average" based on testing a (fairly common, and random) selection of battery powered devices, Dave showed that most run down to around 1v, before cutting out.

2) for an "average" battery, the 1V point is approximately 80% discharged typically, leaving another 20% of energy unusable.


3) A 100% efficient DC/DC convertor could leverage that extra 20% energy and make it available to the load.

4) No DC/DC convertor is 100% efficient, and their operating efficiency is HIGHLY dependent upon the load placed across them.

5) On average, typical existing DC/DC convertors would be expected to be between 90 & 95% efficient. meaning the extra energy available to an average load can be expected to be between 10 and 15%



Now, you'll note the use of "on average" as this is the important bit!  What matters is the average useage of this device not the extreme ends of the normal distribution curve!
It's like claiming your car does INFINITE miles per gallon because you have rolled down a hill with the engine off, and conveniently forgetting to mention how it got to the top of the hill, or that most people don't only drive downhill etc

So if we ignore all the marketing Bull, this product does potentially have some uses.  For example, you're giving a presentation and the battery in your wireless mouse goes "flat".  You whip out a Batteriser, and you're able to finish your presentation.  That's a genuinely usefull scenario.

 However, you could also finish that presentation by simply keeping a spare battery in your bag, which would fit any device, and provide 100% more run time, not 10%........


If this device is well designed, cheap, and they actually claim some realistic performance claims (which will be easily testable!) then it has a good future imo, but the blatant marketing spin and frankly, downright lies, published to date do nothing to help their case!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mzacharias on June 06, 2015, 09:50:32 pm
The battery drop-out voltage on my Fluke 27II was 1.4 volts per cell. And when it drops out, it REALLY drops out. You have to remove the batteries and replace them before the meter will turn on again.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: max_torque on June 06, 2015, 09:54:37 pm

They only need one instance to make the statement true.


Sorry, but no we don't.  They use words like "most" or "majority" or "typically"  to refer to the proportion of devices that only discharge their power source to 1.4V, any of which wording would not stand up in a court of law.   Technically speaking, to have a majority, you need over 50% of devices to cut out at 1.4V to support their claims.

If they had said "some" or "occasionally" then they would have a case.


For example, history shows it is possible to be shot in the head by a bullet and survive, for example:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2030646/Man-survives-bullet-brain-30-YEARS-wife-shot-gun-bought-gift.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2030646/Man-survives-bullet-brain-30-YEARS-wife-shot-gun-bought-gift.html)

And yet if you look at worldwide statistics you'll find that actually, only 5% of people survive being shot in the head.

If i said "most people survive being shot in the head" i'd be lying.
If i said "some people survive being shot in the head" i'd be telling the truth.

Those two sentences are very nearly identical, with just ONE letter different in fact, and yet they have a totally different meaning.  This is what "marketeers" rely on to dupe stupid people into believing what they say................
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 06, 2015, 09:58:24 pm
Why do you think this a scam? The voltage boost technology has been around for a while. The battery manufacturers are well aware of the wasted energy in their product and how to recover some of it.
The miniaturization of the circuit in this gizmo is the clincher.
The 800% battery life increase may even be true in some extreme case. We know marketing will naturally concentrate on those figures to grab the headlines. With most devices cutting out below 1V, the normal battery life extension is more likely to be around 20%, according to the Duracell constant power discharge curve.

This is an electronic blog. Someone here should have the equipment and the skills to disprove the claims with some hard testing of batteries, instead of everybody dismissing it all, out of hand.

Well ... as Dave says, many devices will get *less* battery life. eg. The keyboard shown in their own marketing video. Those keyboards consume microamps when you're not pressing keys. This device will probably make average consumption much worse than that, shortening the battery life.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on June 06, 2015, 09:59:20 pm
Another disbeliever (at least about the 800% claim):

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/batteriser-cool-tech-or-scam/ (http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/batteriser-cool-tech-or-scam/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 06, 2015, 10:18:22 pm
The miniaturization tech which he seems to specialise in must be impressive to fit in the space. I can't wait to see it myself, I'll buy some when they go on pre-sale.
It will be interesting to see what the standby/quiescent currents are.

Efficiency will also be interesting with such a tiny inductor. Maybe they could run it at ultra high frequencies or something.

Also: What will it output when a battery is fresh out of the pack and outputting 1.6V?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on June 06, 2015, 10:19:09 pm
They only need one instance to make the statement true. Totally misleading, but we wouldn't be talking about their gizmo if they had only claimed an average of 20% increase. So the advertising fib paid off.
They state the "only 20% are used" and directly derive a "plus 800%" number from it. Indeed they call it "grossly simplified", but it's utter nonsense and nothing in their own claims justifies the 800% assumption. So before going into details why a dramatic increase of battery life is unrealistic, one should 1st mention that the 800% number is complete bs.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 06, 2015, 10:20:33 pm
One other thing nobody's mentioned (or at least, I haven't seen it) is Ohm's Law, which works against this device.

Batteries output around 1.2V-1.3V for most of their lifetime, right?

If you boost the battery voltage to 1.5V then most devices will simply follow Ohm's Law and consume 20% more current, therefore shortening the overall battery life.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 06, 2015, 10:25:52 pm
They state the "only 20% are used" and directly derive a "plus 800%" number from it. Indeed they call it "grossly simplified"
Yep, the idea that we're only using 20% of our batteries is ludicrous. Laughable, even.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on June 06, 2015, 10:32:31 pm
One other thing nobody's mentioned (or at least, I haven't seen it) is Ohm's Law, which works against this device.
...
If you boost the battery voltage to 1.5V then most devices will simply follow Ohm's Law and consume 20% more current, therefore shortening the overall battery life.
This depends on the device. Indeed if it uses a boost converter to step up e.g. the ~1.5V from one cell to 3.3V, this converter might be a little more efficient when stepping up from 1.5V then when stepping up from 0.9V. Then again, the combined efficiency of batteriser and the device's boost converter will always be worse.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Grapsus on June 06, 2015, 10:32:54 pm
Wytnucls just says enough to get everyone going into explaining the thing again and again and then he replies totally ignoring everything that has been said to keep the controversy going. Totally classic troll, don't waste your time.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: zapta on June 06, 2015, 10:44:06 pm
an increase by 800% would mean that only about 11% of the capacity would be used under normal conditions.

Not necessarily.

It's possible that in normal operation you consume more than 11? but waste a portion of it on heat because the battery starts with higher voltage then the minimum required by your device.  Theoretically, an ideal DC/DC can fix that as well.

It's not clear if the debunking here is about 'breaking the laws of physics' or is just about the limitations of our current DC/DC technology.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 10:50:05 pm
Wytnucls just says enough to get everyone going into explaining the thing again and again and then he replies totally ignoring everything that has been said to keep the controversy going. Totally classic troll, don't waste your time.

Typical ad hominem statement. Come up with real physics instead. All my posts are backed up by Duracell graphs and application notes. You obviously didn't bother to read or grasp any of it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: RupertGo on June 06, 2015, 10:59:08 pm
I think they're sunk anyway. Once (if) the product gets into production, then no amount of marketing can compensate for reality and pissed-off users. It's easy enough to knock up a battery curve generator that automatically runs a variety of load scenarios - microcontroller, handful of relays - and then the truth will be out there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 06, 2015, 10:59:56 pm
Why do you think this a scam? The voltage boost technology has been around for a while. The battery manufacturers are well aware of the wasted energy in their product and how to recover some of it.
The miniaturization of the circuit in this gizmo is the clincher.
The 800% battery life increase may even be true in some extreme case. We know marketing will naturally concentrate on those figures to grab the headlines. With most devices cutting out below 1V, the normal battery life extension is more likely to be around 20%, according to the Duracell constant power discharge curve.

This is an electronic blog. Someone here should have the equipment and the skills to disprove the claims with some hard testing of batteries, instead of everybody dismissing it all, out of hand.

Hi,

It's not a scam, it's all 100 percent perfectly true.  And also, i will have some of these devices modified to give you not only 800 percent battery life, but 8000 percent battery life, and i'll sell them to you for 5 bucks each, when they get through production.  If 8000 percent still isnt good enough, just let me know and i'll get you some that will give you 80000 percent over normal usage.  I'll have to charge more for those though, like 6 bucks each, simply because it takes more ink to print 80000 than it takes to print 8000, sorry.
Oh yeah before i forget, i wont tell you what voltage threshold these estimates are based on :-)

The above is all perfectly 100 percent accurate and true, but what you dont know is how the calculations are done because you dont know the target cut out voltage for a normal run of a single cell without the extra new device installed.  But if that's not to your liking, i can always lie and tell you it's 1.3 volts, if that makes you more happy.

<chuckle>

To be more serious, in my last post i did give some 'reasonable' estimates that we might see IF we had a device that cuts out at 1.3v, but as i also pointed out, i dont have any devices that cut out at 1.3v so the new Battery Thingizer WILL NOT HELP ANY of my applications at all, not one.

Now turn the voltage up to 3.5v or higher (from a single AA cell) and can i could probably use them for other things.


Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on June 06, 2015, 11:05:16 pm
Not necessarily.
Well, actually yes. You might construct cases where the consumption is higher/smaller for a certain voltage level. But increasing the voltage level certainly won't help there.

It's possible that in normal operation you consume more than 11? but waste a portion of it on heat because the battery starts with higher voltage then the minimum required by your device.  Theoretically, an ideal DC/DC can fix that as well.
It's not clear if the debunking here is about 'breaking the laws of physics' or is just about the limitations of our current DC/DC technology.
This is a pretty bad example. Even counterproductive. You argue that the higher voltage at the begin of a battery's lifetime could be wasted due to higher currents. Well, this might be true in selected cases.
Then again the nominal voltage of a fresh alkaline cell is 1.5 V and this is exactly the voltage that this batteriser is said to deliver over the whole lifetime.
So in  cases where the higher voltage means higher losses, this device extends the issue over the whole lifetime.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 11:05:54 pm
I think they're sunk anyway. Once (if) the product gets into production, then no amount of marketing can compensate for reality and pissed-off users. It's easy enough to knock up a battery curve generator that automatically runs a variety of load scenarios - microcontroller, handful of relays - and then the truth will be out there.

Absolutely; if the average battery life extension turns out to be only 10-20%, depending on DC to DC efficiency, like I suspect, it may only be useful for niche applications and the general public will lose interest.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 06, 2015, 11:52:47 pm
About the price: What kind of production numbers do you think they're targeting at? It must be huge I would say, and they already mentioned the price, so they really need a big start on their IGG campaign don't they?

No idea about numbers, but a stamped metal sheet, a thin board, and the circuit, not much in the way of huge capital required, unless they spun an ASIC or something. There might be some novel mounting tech though.
Like many Kickstarter and Indiegogo campaigns, it's not uncommon to not make a profit on the first units, the idea is to build the business up.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 06, 2015, 11:56:24 pm
The 800% battery life increase may even be true in some extreme case.
As mentioned before (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg687566/#msg687566), an increase by 800% would mean that only about 11% of the capacity would be used under normal conditions. Not taking into account efficiency etc. I guess it will be extremely difficult to find one case where this is the case.

And that's the kicker. No matter what battery you are talking about, or what product you are talking about, it all comes down to simple energy used vs energy stored in the battery.
That 800% must also include the efficiency of the converter!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 07, 2015, 12:01:46 am
We all agree that some additional energy can be squeezed out of batteries with a boost converter. Would such a converter achieve any significant gain for the user ? Simple technical considerations show that no, unless we talk about some very rare badly designed products. Therefore their claims are false and the end-users will never get what is advertised to them. This is the definition of a scam.

It is not a scam. It just the usual BS marketing numbers making the headlines, seen it countless times before in every industry, nothing new here.
Companies are free to use words like "up to" etc, and have no real requirement to tell you what average figures you might expect in practice. Welcome to the free market. Of course, if they can't show at least one case of x8 improvement, then they might have some explaining to do.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Grapsus on June 07, 2015, 02:13:01 am
Ok, let's call it BS marketing. But who are they trying to fool here ? The first disappointed customers will tell it everywhere and nobody will buy the thing ever again. Since their strategy cannot lead to a happy growing customer base, I wonder if the real goal is not about impressing investors in order to get a big founding round...

Wytnucls just says enough to get everyone going into explaining the thing again and again and then he replies totally ignoring everything that has been said to keep the controversy going. Totally classic troll, don't waste your time.

Typical ad hominem statement. Come up with real physics instead. All my posts are backed up by Duracell graphs and application notes. You obviously didn't bother to read or grasp any of it.

Ok, sorry, I might have  been carried away.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on June 07, 2015, 02:20:12 am
Ok, let's call it BS marketing. But who are they trying to fool here ? The first disappointed customers will tell it everywhere and nobody will buy the thing ever again. Since their strategy cannot lead to a happy growing customer base, I wonder if the real goal is not about impressing investors in order to get a big founding round...
If that would be true, then there would not be any "snake oil" around.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ian.M on June 07, 2015, 02:23:37 am
How to profit from a silicon snake-oil gadget:

* Get it prominent in the media.
* Get it on the market in November.
* Get it in all the pre-Christmas gadget magazines and catalogs.
* Sell hundreds of thousands of units to non-techies looking for Christmas presents.
* Discount it heavily in the January sales to clear remaining stock.
* Fold the company 1st February before most dissatisfied customers have got round to returning it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 07, 2015, 02:31:58 am
Ok, let's call it BS marketing. But who are they trying to fool here ? The first disappointed customers will tell it everywhere and nobody will buy the thing ever again. Since their strategy cannot lead to a happy growing customer base, I wonder if the real goal is not about impressing investors in order to get a big founding round...

I get the feeling it's the electronics equivalent of ab-ductors, magnetic bracelets, cervical pillows, etc.

Get in there, sell the first few million as fast as possible, pocket the profit, close the company, start a new one with a different name...lather, rinse, repeat. Whoever does it first/most often gets the most money.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 07, 2015, 03:49:28 am
We all agree that some additional energy can be squeezed out of batteries with a boost converter. Would such a converter achieve any significant gain for the user ? Simple technical considerations show that no, unless we talk about some very rare badly designed products. Therefore their claims are false and the end-users will never get what is advertised to them. This is the definition of a scam.



It is not a scam. It just the usual BS marketing numbers making the headlines, seen it countless times before in every industry, nothing new here.
Companies are free to use words like "up to" etc, and have no real requirement to tell you what average figures you might expect in practice. Welcome to the free market. Of course, if they can't show at least one case of x8 improvement, then they might have some explaining to do.


Hello there,

That's the thing that bothers me the most.  Since the percentage is just the total energy divided by the used energy, all we have to do is choose the voltage cutout threshold we want and we can claim 800 percent, 8000 percent, you name it :-)

To the other poster:
I think that negative publicity only works for actors, not for electronic products.
Everything in this thread is well deserved negative publicity.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Poe on June 07, 2015, 04:29:35 am
So my camera eats a new battery every eight minutes.

I put this on a dead battery get an hour of run time?

That's what they're saying right?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: zapta on June 07, 2015, 04:45:35 am
You argue that the higher voltage at the begin of a battery's lifetime could be wasted due to higher currents. Well, this might be true in selected cases.

'selected' is a loaded word. I would say in 'some' cases.


Then again the nominal voltage of a fresh alkaline cell is 1.5 V and this is exactly the voltage that this batteriser is said to deliver over the whole lifetime.
So in  cases where the higher voltage means higher losses, this device extends the issue over the whole lifetime.

I don't know what exactly this product does but maintaining a let's say 1.2V level throughout the life of the battery may save energy also during the high voltage period.

'Consumed' is different that 'needed'. Ideally the device should spread the charge to provide the 'needed' power for as long as possible.  I don't think the video touched on that aspect.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on June 07, 2015, 05:18:55 am
I don't know what exactly this product does...
Which would however help to participate in a discussion about this very product.

... but maintaining a let's say 1.2V level throughout the life of the battery may save energy also during the high voltage period.
But this is quite the opposite of what it does. If you would have taken the time to either watch Dave's rant or visit their webpage, you would have found out that they argue that "most/all" devices don't work after a level of 1.3V. Therefore this things boosts up the voltage to 1.5V.

'Consumed' is different that 'needed'. Ideally the device should spread the charge to provide the 'needed' power for as long as possible.  I don't think the video touched on that aspect.
Why would it? It's a simple boost converter with a fixed 1.5V output. What you imply is that the thing magically knows what would be the best voltage level for the device you put it in. Even if this would be possible in theory, it's definitely nothing to expect from a $2.50 device that fits on top of an AA battery.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on June 07, 2015, 05:24:39 am
1. What's the going rate for a professor?  In the 70s one asked me for $2000 (under the table) in order for me to sell my product at his school and I did not want to pay it, so I lost my business.  And to be honest to this day, I wonder where I would be if I had paid him the money.  Professors are people and like people, some can be bought.

2.  The last video shows them telling people it is to be placed on a dead battery, so depending on the cost, I assume most will be happy to just get a few more minutes of use out of a battery (especially if they do not have a spare).

My guess is they will drop the 800% crap.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lewis on June 07, 2015, 05:36:27 am
If I was designing this thing I would only have the boost converter operating when the battery voltage dropped to, say, 1.1-1.2V. That would drastically improve system efficiency by negating almost all the quiescent current when the battery is fully charged. It's not difficult to do, turn the lower MOSFET off, and keep the synchronous MOSFET on (it would need one hell of a low Vgs).

I can see this improving battery life to some extent, maybe not quite the 800% claimed, but probably enough to pay for itself a few times over during its lifetime given its low cost. Which in my book makes it a fairly decent product, worth a punt.

Point taken about battery life being a valuable marketing feature so manufacturers would include a boost converter in their products anyway. But manufacturers can 'exaggerate' battery life claims for free, it costs money to put boost converters in products.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ivan747 on June 07, 2015, 05:37:58 am
I have a better idea, an actual improvement on this product. Instead of having it supply 1.5V 100% of the time, just let the DC-DC converter bypassed until the battery drops below, say 1.1V, then start the boost and keep the voltage on 1.1V until it drops dead. It's basically artificially modifying the discharge curve of the battery to take advantage of the energy at low voltages.

I, Ivan Veloz hereby claim my invention to be mine.  ;D Oh snap!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lewis on June 07, 2015, 05:40:53 am
I have a better idea

Beat you to it
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ivan747 on June 07, 2015, 05:41:30 am
I have a better idea

Beat you to it

Oh snap! Ready for some collaboration?  ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lewis on June 07, 2015, 05:44:09 am
Patent it quick!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: hikariuk on June 07, 2015, 07:09:04 am
I dunno, I think they'll try to productise it through crowd-funding

Yes, the article says they will be putting it on Indiegogo.
Not sure why they don't use Kickstarter? they obviously have a real prototype, so satisfies the requirement.

Only reason I can think of is that Indiegogo, iirc, lets you receive funds even if your goal isn't reached.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on June 07, 2015, 07:15:42 am
As Dave already mentioned, they won't have any problems reaching whatever goal they establish, so I don't think they'll need IGG flexible funding.

Maybe IGG takes a lower cut?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: zapta on June 07, 2015, 07:26:49 am
Why would it? It's a simple boost converter with a fixed 1.5V output.

That's a guess based on sketchy marketing material.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on June 07, 2015, 08:51:13 am
That's a guess based on sketchy marketing material.
Well, it's a pretty good guess though. They claim that most device will not work if the battery voltage drops below 1.4 or 1.3V.
Then they show you how with their batteriser, all devices display full battery again. Which is 1.5V for alkalines.
We don't want to nitpick here if they use 1.45V or 1.55V, but it will be something around 1.5V.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on June 07, 2015, 09:08:10 am
I posted the last two patents on another thread regarding this:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20150056476.pdf (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20150056476.pdf)

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20150048785.pdf (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20150048785.pdf)

But I didn't read them in detail but the voltages setting is not set on the patent, I think they refer to it as a target voltage.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: zapta on June 07, 2015, 10:12:07 am
But I didn't read them in detail but the voltages setting is not set on the patent, I think they refer to it as a target voltage.

Another patent that comes to mind is having some smart, history and heuristics that determine the target voltage dynamically.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: DanielS on June 07, 2015, 01:03:39 pm
I have a better idea, an actual improvement on this product. Instead of having it supply 1.5V 100% of the time, just let the DC-DC converter bypassed until the battery drops below, say 1.1V, then start the boost and keep the voltage on 1.1V until it drops dead.
If your device has a cut-off voltage of 1.3V and you wait for 1.1V to start boosting, then you wasted your time and money since booster will never engage.

Where this thing would be most useful is to make devices with high cut-off work with single-cell NiMH when they normally wouldn't, or at least not for long, because their cut-off voltage is close to full-charge voltage on NiMH, particularly older gadgets which may have been designed to operate off direct battery voltage.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: westfw on June 07, 2015, 04:32:16 pm
Quote
It is not a scam. It just the usual BS marketing numbers
I think it's sad that we make excuses like that.  "usual BS marketing marketing" ARE "scams."
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on June 07, 2015, 04:51:58 pm
Do we have any idea what the quiescent power consumption of this dc-dc converter is meant to be?

It needs to maintain 1.5V not just into a heavy load, but also a very light one. Most battery powered devices spend most of their time switched off, or at least, in a standby mode where their consumption is microamps. Draw more than a few uA when the device is off, and you're doing more harm than good.

The marketing, and perhaps the application itself, isn't doing justice to what could be some genuinely worthwhile technology. Perhaps they do indeed have a notably efficient, small dc-dc converter, which is cheap, robust, and has extremely low standby power use? That in itself is a really useful piece of technology, just not for use in this particular product.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on June 07, 2015, 05:17:05 pm
Do we have any idea what the quiescent power consumption of this dc-dc converter is meant to be?

It needs to maintain 1.5V not just into a heavy load, but also a very light one. Most battery powered devices spend most of their time switched off, or at least, in a standby mode where their consumption is microamps. Draw more than a few uA when the device is off, and you're doing more harm than good.

The marketing, and perhaps the application itself, isn't doing justice to what could be some genuinely worthwhile technology. Perhaps they do indeed have a notably efficient, small dc-dc converter, which is cheap, robust, and has extremely low standby power use? That in itself is a really useful piece of technology, just not for use in this particular product.
Based on common devices, likely to be somewhere between 5-20uA, but this will be drawn at the output voltage, so scale this by the step-up ratio & efficiency
If we say 30uA, this represents roughly 80Khrs, about 10 years.
Of course some devices will draw some current in "off" mode for various reasons, so "shelf" life would be reduces, but for AAs upwards, probably not enough to be a major issue. 

 
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mcinque on June 07, 2015, 06:34:58 pm
It is not a scam.

Legally here the word "scam" is used to describe something that makes you obtain an advantage by using artifice and deception.

Telling that a product does something huge (while it does not) only to obtain an advantage (to have your crowdsourcing campaign funded, for example), technically and legally, here it's considered a scam.

Of course you're right: there's nothing new in this kind of marketing, we can see this "technique" used in every single country of the planet, but this 800% improvement is a little bit cheeky, don't you? :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on June 07, 2015, 08:06:55 pm
Running a battery at 100 mA and 1.5 volt down to say 1V then put the gizmo on... means you will take 150 mA (in a perfect world) out of the poor battery, which is depleted already.

With increasing Ri this thing will go down hill real fast  :-DD

Wrong. Look at the most efficient constant power curve of the Duracell AA battery. There is no significant time curve dip below 1V, down to 0.7V.
The internal battery resistance doesn't increase until below that voltage.

At constant power the voltage is pretty much in free-fall by the time it's hit 1v, even for fairly small loads.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 07, 2015, 08:49:30 pm
The curve published by Duracell for 100mW is much flatter and goes below 0.8V.
At 1V, the load will draw 100mA and 170mA at the claimed 0.6V threshold, to maintain that power.
10 to 20% battery life extension seems plausible at that power level.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=155315;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 07, 2015, 08:51:01 pm
So my camera eats a new battery every eight minutes.

I put this on a dead battery get an hour of run time?

That's what they're saying right?

Hi,

That is what it is SUPPOSED to do, but there are too many unanswered specifications we still dont know yet, like the max current output for the Battery Thingizer.
Cameras need a decent amount of current, and it is not known yet if the new device can put out the required current that the camera would need.  Typically i think some cameras could benefit from a product like this, but only if it is able to put out enought current to satisfy the needs of the camera.  Right now because of the required size of the new device (that must fit over an AA cell and be able to still fit inside the battery compartment) it is very doubtful that it can work with high current devices, even when that current is just a pulse.  So it may only work with low current devices like remote controls, which may not really need the device anyway.

We have to wait and see what happens when someone gets one of these and tests it since the company that makes them only publishes specs they want you to know, and dont publish any specs they dont want you to know.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 07, 2015, 08:55:12 pm
The curve published by Duracell for 100mW is much flatter and goes below 0.8V.
At 1V, the load will draw 100mA and 170mA at the claimed 0.6V threshold, to maintain that power.
10 to 20% battery life extension seems plausible at that power level.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=155315;image)

Hello,

I used a similar curve to calculate an approximate 100 percent gain at a cutoff of 1.3 volts.  We KNOW that a boost circuit can do this, but the real problem is we dont know ALL the specs of this thing yet, like can it do a 1 amp load for example?
For most real life applications a boost circuit is designed AROUND a given application.  It's not designed for just ANY ol' application because it has to be optimized for that application, and that means the choice of parts like MOSFET, inductor, etc.  There's no choice allowed here as the circuit you buy would be the same one i buy, and we might have entirely different products to use it in which draw significantly different currents.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on June 07, 2015, 10:11:16 pm
The curve published by Duracell

The chart I posted was straight out of the standard Duracell MN1500 datasheet. (http://ww2.duracell.com/media/en-US/pdf/gtcl/Product_Data_Sheet/NA_DATASHEETS/MN1500_US_CT.pdf).  The "Plus Power" (http://professional.duracell.com/downloads/datasheets/product/Plus%20Power/Plus_AA_MN1500.pdf) and "Ultra power" (http://professional.duracell.com/downloads/datasheets/product/Ultra%20Power/Ultra-Power_AA_MX1500.pdf) variants all look very similar, though Duracell have cunningly changed the power values so they can't be directly compared.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on June 07, 2015, 10:14:58 pm
Based on common devices, likely to be somewhere between 5-20uA, but this will be drawn at the output voltage, so scale this by the step-up ratio & efficiency
That's better than I expected. Some combination of pulse skipping and a decent sized output cap to reduce the ripple voltage, presumably...?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on June 07, 2015, 10:34:40 pm
Based on common devices, likely to be somewhere between 5-20uA, but this will be drawn at the output voltage, so scale this by the step-up ratio & efficiency
That's better than I expected. Some combination of pulse skipping and a decent sized output cap to reduce the ripple voltage, presumably...?
Yes - they generally have a pulse-skip mode. The big catch is that the front-page quiescent current spec is from the output, which can be a significant issue if boosting to a significantly higher voltage like 5V
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mrkev on June 08, 2015, 01:53:36 am
As someone who worked in shop with electronics, I came across only few products that couldn't be powered from rechargeable batteries.
I would say that it was probably more common few years back, when they didn't have devices that could run on that low voltage (like OA in some walk-men type device) but it's pretty much only case of cheap electronics now...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Poe on June 08, 2015, 02:32:02 am
The curve published by Duracell for 100mW is much flatter and goes below 0.8V.
At 1V, the load will draw 100mA and 170mA at the claimed 0.6V threshold, to maintain that power.
10 to 20% battery life extension seems plausible at that power level.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=155315;image)

It's a shorter graph, but I'm not so certain those lines are flatter.  Since the internal resistance increases as the battery is discharged, the cutoff voltage is a function of how much current you're pulling.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: calzap on June 08, 2015, 03:08:14 am
1. What's the going rate for a professor?  In the 70s one asked me for $2000 (under the table) in order for me to sell my product at his school and I did not want to pay it, so I lost my business.  And to be honest to this day, I wonder where I would be if I had paid him the money.  Professors are people and like people, some can be bought.

As a retired professor, I can attest that with regard to ethics, there is a broad spectrum in the academic ranks.  Actually, the majority are quite ethical.   Most common conflict is requiring their students to buy a textbook that they wrote.  At the least, they should refund the royalty per textbook to each of their students who buy it.  Some are for sale to do endorsements.  Usually these are more senior profs who have a reputation in their field, so are attractive endorsers for companies.  And being tenured, they don't have to be too concerned about the opinion of their colleagues and department head.

Some naive young (and not so young) profs get suckered into doing endorsements without realizing how it will be used for marketing.  Happened to me as an assistant prof.  There was a commercial analytic lab that contacted me suggesting that my lab and theirs compare results on some samples.  I agreed.  The results were very close, and I sent them a letter stating that was the case.  A few weeks later, quotes from my letter appeared in their ads.  Learned to be careful after that.

Mike in California

 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 08, 2015, 05:26:02 am
I just finished running a discharge test of a single Duracell AA battery, between 0.7V and 0.6V, with a constant resistive load (5.6 Ohms + test leads).
Initial discharge current was 100mA and at the end, 90mA. It took 1 hour and 5 minutes for the 0.1V discharge.
Assuming the discharge slope is constant between 1V and 0.6V, that would be 4 hours of extra battery time. Depending on the converter efficiency at 100mA, that time could be reduced significantly.
Those figures seem to tie up with the Duracell graph.
There doesn't seem to be any significant rise in internal battery resistance above 0.6V.

Test jig: Keithley 2000 measuring voltage, Rigol DM3058E measuring current on 2A range and 10W 5.6 Ohm resistor.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mybetoostnedforths on June 08, 2015, 07:25:30 am
Hi from Sweden!
I just thought of something crazy aight.
Consider this
If applying the gizmo to your battery provides constant voltage at 1.5, by converting the stuff.
And if as Dave says, screws up battery-indicators,
wouldn't that mean that the indicator would just go to 100% (as in 1.5 volt), making it seem like it's full? As seen in their marketing video at 26 seconds.
That'd fool consumers into thinking it actually works, since it's full. Atleast for a while.

But hell, I'm just a very-low-time electronics hobbyist, and I sure as hell could just be wrong.
Regards
Mybetoostnedforths
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on June 08, 2015, 09:34:47 am
I just finished running a discharge test of a single Duracell AA battery, between 0.7V and 0.6V, with a constant resistive load (5.6 Ohms + test leads).
Initial discharge current was 100mA and at the end, 90mA. It took 1 hour and 5 minutes for the 0.1V discharge.
Assuming the discharge slope is constant between 1V and 0.6V, that would be 4 hours of extra battery time. Depending on the converter efficiency at 100mA, that time could be reduced significantly.
Well, 1st of all 400mAH is 20% of a 2000mAH cell. Not quite 800%.
Also keep in mind that even at ideal efficiency, the boost up of the voltage to 1.5V means that 100mA drawn from the boost up converter doesn't mean 100mA are drawn from the battery. Actually, at 0.7V more than 200mA are drawn which raises to 250mA at 0.6V. Obviously, considering a realistic efficiency, the current would be even higher. And higher currents means negative impact on battery life.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on June 08, 2015, 10:07:58 am

Either technically or morally the device appears to fall into a peculiar category.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitism)

Muttley
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 08, 2015, 11:00:17 am
Due to popular request I have a shorter and perhaps more digestible text based article here:
http://www.eevblog.com/2015/06/07/the-batteriser-explained/ (http://www.eevblog.com/2015/06/07/the-batteriser-explained/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on June 08, 2015, 03:17:18 pm
Nice text article.  I'm interested to see if you get more exposure from that than the video.  I would think it would be way easier for a news site to use the text article as a source than pointing people to watch a video.  The text is more quotable and makes a better static reference.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BradC on June 08, 2015, 03:52:53 pm
The section on rechargeables has me wondering. The theory on discharge down to 1V is to make sure the battery is not discharged to the point where individual weak cells can be reverse-charged. I've never heard any evidence to state that discharging a single cell to 0V will damage it, and in fact it is sometimes recommended to store NiCd & NiMh cells that have been properly discharged with shorting bars attached. I've certainly never damaged a cell by flattening it completely in isolation.

Discounting all the other failings of the product, if it can stop a rechargeable cell being reverse charged it's a bonus.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 08, 2015, 04:55:54 pm
I just finished running a discharge test of a single Duracell AA battery, between 0.7V and 0.6V, with a constant resistive load (5.6 Ohms + test leads).
Initial discharge current was 100mA and at the end, 90mA. It took 1 hour and 5 minutes for the 0.1V discharge.
Assuming the discharge slope is constant between 1V and 0.6V, that would be 4 hours of extra battery time. Depending on the converter efficiency at 100mA, that time could be reduced significantly.
Well, 1st of all 400mAH is 20% of a 2000mAH cell. Not quite 800%.
Also keep in mind that even at ideal efficiency, the boost up of the voltage to 1.5V means that 100mA drawn from the boost up converter doesn't mean 100mA are drawn from the battery. Actually, at 0.7V more than 200mA are drawn which raises to 250mA at 0.6V. Obviously, considering a realistic efficiency, the current would be even higher. And higher currents means negative impact on battery life.
Well, first of all, I never said that 800% is a realistic figure.
I think 10 to 20% is plausible, depending on final efficiency. Assuming an efficiency of 80~90%, with a current draw of 100mA, 2~3 hours at 40-50mA is still useful for some devices. A multimeter, for instance, only uses 10mA of current on average. A couple of sleeves would be easier to carry around, than extra batteries. Definitely not a huge market, but a market nevertheless.
I don't know how the device works, but the IC could reduce final voltage to 1.2~1.3V at the low end and still have most devices working at that voltage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on June 08, 2015, 05:09:10 pm
You're not supposed to put this on a new battery and use it all the time, you're supposed to put it on a 'dead' battery so you can keep on using it a bit longer.

The 800% increase in battery life seems far fetched though and would have to be confirmed independently.

They state otherwise, but if you put it on when it's nearly dead, you can also start counting battery life from that moment.
In that case, their 800% increase can be true, 90 seconds instead of 10 seconds use.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 08, 2015, 05:16:34 pm
The 800% extension is possible for a hypothetical device which cuts out near the 1.5V battery voltage.
I don't have such a device, but maybe there exists one in a dark corner of the world.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on June 08, 2015, 05:35:42 pm

* Sell hundreds of thousands of units to non-techies looking for Christmas presents.

thanks for predicting this, it leaves me some time for thinking about:

-How to behave if I get this as a present from an illiterate.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on June 08, 2015, 05:51:55 pm
As many devices already have a boost converter inside, how do multiple stages of boost converters behave combined?

I have very bad expieriences with that (another tech field), especially when at least one isn't designed for it, and the load goes up and down.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ian.M on June 08, 2015, 06:37:03 pm

* Sell hundreds of thousands of units to non-techies looking for Christmas presents.

thanks for predicting this, it leaves me some time for thinking about:

-How to behave if I get this as a present from an illiterate.
Its still better than novelty socks - at least you can send it to Dave for a teardown.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 08, 2015, 07:21:36 pm
As many devices already have a boost converter inside, how do multiple stages of boost converters behave combined?

You get twice the efficiency losses. And the DC-DC in the products usually present a constant power load, which the preceeding DC-DC (Batteriser) might not be as efficient at.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 08, 2015, 10:12:28 pm
Hi from Sweden!
I just thought of something crazy aight.
Consider this
If applying the gizmo to your battery provides constant voltage at 1.5, by converting the stuff.
And if as Dave says, screws up battery-indicators,
wouldn't that mean that the indicator would just go to 100% (as in 1.5 volt), making it seem like it's full? As seen in their marketing video at 26 seconds.
That'd fool consumers into thinking it actually works, since it's full. Atleast for a while.

But hell, I'm just a very-low-time electronics hobbyist, and I sure as hell could just be wrong.
Regards
Mybetoostnedforths

Hi,

Yes, but to be fair, if you got 800 percent run time out of a battery you normally get only 100 percent run time (say 8 hours as compared to 1 hour) you would not care if the battery gauge was not correct anymore.

But to be more reasonable, it could be only 200 percent run time (2 hours instead of 1 hour for example) and that is if your home product cuts out normally at 1.3v, which is not typical at all.  So in some strange device it might actually give you 2 hours run time instead of 1, and then you would not care as much about the battery gauge, even though you might miss it.  That's if the battery gauge works right in the first place which some dont anyway.

So i think the battery gauge issue is just a small side issue, which would not matter if the device worked as advertised or even just 100 percent better than without it.  But there dont seem to be many products that we will see a benefit for, unfortunately.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 08, 2015, 10:23:04 pm
Yes, but to be fair, if you got 800 percent run time out of a battery you normally get only 100 percent run time (say 8 hours as compared to 1 hour) you would not care if the battery gauge was not correct anymore.

Until it totally pisses you off when it dies on you unexpectedly. Personally I'd rather know were I stand with the battery level rather than have to guess/remember when I put the battery in last and how many hours it's been running for.
Murphy will ensure it dies at the most inconvenient time.

Quote
So i think the battery gauge issue is just a small side issue

I think it's a complete show-stopper for many people. Perhaps not if you only used it to get a bit more juice on an otherwise flat battery.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: RupertGo on June 09, 2015, 12:42:32 am
Battery gauges on many devices aren't that accurate anyway, and perhaps you could design the device to roll off its output with a bit of time to spare to give the user some warning, but I'm not sure if that's practicably possible given off-the-shelf converter chips and the limitations of the form factor. Especially given a dynamic load.

Something else that could be worrying: if you're using this thing on an NiMH cell and you put it and the cell into a charger, what happens? Do these circuits have protection against seeing a voltage like that on their output? How would the charger react? You probably don't want the sort of product liability issues that can come from mucking about with stuff like that unless you've designed for those cases.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AG6QR on June 09, 2015, 02:06:52 am
If you really want to see some crazy claims, look at the founder's interview on CNN Money

http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/02/technology/make-battery-last-longer-batteriser/?sr=cnnmoneybin060615battery0900story (http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/02/technology/make-battery-last-longer-batteriser/?sr=cnnmoneybin060615battery0900story)

For example, a typical AA battery will stop working after 240 minutes of use powering a remote control, 95 minutes powering portable speakers, or just 38 minutes powering an RC toy. Roohparvar claims that the Batteriser can get 1,185 minutes out of a remote (5 times more energy), 570 minutes out of portable speakers (6x) or 355 minutes out of an RC toy (9x).

If you read the comments on that CNN Money story, you'll notice that the readers of CNN Money, on average, aren't as technically astute as those of EEVblog, but we knew that.

He doesn't have a product.  He has an idea that he's pitching for crowdfunding investors.  That's why he's promoting the story in CNN Money.  On his website, he says his product will reduce the amount of battery waste going into landfills by a factor of eight.  That's a very bold claim, and in order to meet it, his device would have to produce that claimed 8x improvement when averaged out over all devices that use alkaline batteries -- not just once in a while on the most special cases.

Not a chance.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rr100 on June 09, 2015, 02:39:55 am
Dave, are feeling the load? You've got slashdotted!

I find it funny that for basic EE stuff like this the quality of discussion isn't that high on slashdot. I say that because I've been very often surprised by the collective knowledge of slashdot on anything slightly technical, from atomic power plants to 1800's technology, of course IT, etc. But they've got nothing, NOTHING on eevblog forum for EE stuff.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 09, 2015, 03:19:46 am
Yes, but to be fair, if you got 800 percent run time out of a battery you normally get only 100 percent run time (say 8 hours as compared to 1 hour) you would not care if the battery gauge was not correct anymore.

Until it totally pisses you off when it dies on you unexpectedly. Personally I'd rather know were I stand with the battery level rather than have to guess/remember when I put the battery in last and how many hours it's been running for.
Murphy will ensure it dies at the most inconvenient time.

Quote
So i think the battery gauge issue is just a small side issue

I think it's a complete show-stopper for many people. Perhaps not if you only used it to get a bit more juice on an otherwise flat battery.

Hello again,

Well, from personal experience with lots of battery operated devices, if i really did get 800 percent run time (to be clear that is 700 percent additional run time) i would easily accept giving up the battery gauge unless i could get a device that allowed it to still function properly and still get 800 percent.  With only 200 percent (100 percent additional) i would have to think about it, but for me 100 percent additional time could be very useful, so i might go with it anyway.

As others have and will point out, battery gauges dont work that well anyway most of the time, or at least not with the devices i have.  For example, my camera tells me 2 or 3 pictures before it dies, which i often miss anyway because i dont want to have to keep looking at the battery gauge.  So my remedy is to carry a spare battery or set of batteries with me, especially if i intend to do a lot of shooting.  That's the only way anyway.  But yes, having the battery gauge could save that special shot that we miss otherwise, if we are diligent about watching the gauge, which we might be if every shot was very important.  For me i guess my shots are not usually that important anyway (mostly still shots for important record keeping), but i could easily see that being a determining factor for sports fans.
What i always intended to do was to count the shots between recharges, and then check the picture number meter (numbers 0001 to 9999 i think) and that way i would know if i shot (say) 100 pictures it was time to change batteries, but i never got diligent enough to do this yet.  Maybe some day :-)
Luckily this camera takes Li-ion so i just pop in one battery to get going again.

I am already a little pissed off that they had the nerve to state "800 percent" <chuckle>
But luckily they were not too smart about picking that number as i think that tips people off right away that something probably isnt right here.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MyCo on June 09, 2015, 04:41:20 am
I'm not so much familiar with battery powered device design. But looking at this product and daves video, I thought: wouldn't do a buck converter a better job in this? So basically it converts the battery voltage always down to let's say 1.1V and when the input is too low it gets bypassed. That way you could get some more lifetime in linear/unregulated devices by using the peak energy (when the battery is full, and the voltage is high) over a longer time instead of drawing more current than necessary.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Herbert K. on June 09, 2015, 05:38:36 am
Hi,

 i'm sorry if somebody else mentioned it already and i'm wasting your time, but i didn't read the whole thread, i'm just too tired right now.

If you leave a depleted alkaline cell alone, the voltage will soon recover to about 1.35V (measured only with a typical high impedance voltmeter) But if you put any load what so ever on that cell it will crap out instantly.

I think the "inventors" measured the cell voltage of a dead alkaline without any LOAD and therefore are saying most devices use the cells only down to 1.35V.

When i was a kid, i had the same idea and made the same mistake.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 09, 2015, 11:41:55 am
Here is some great data on used battery capacity:
http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)
About 33% wasted is their figure.
Perhaps Batteroo would be kind enough to publish their data?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 09, 2015, 11:42:34 am
If you leave a depleted alkaline cell alone, the voltage will soon recover to about 1.35V (measured only with a typical high impedance voltmeter) But if you put any load what so ever on that cell it will crap out instantly.
I think the "inventors" measured the cell voltage of a dead alkaline without any LOAD and therefore are saying most devices use the cells only down to 1.35V.

That's the only conclusion I can come to as well.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Poe on June 09, 2015, 12:52:42 pm
Here is some great data on used battery capacity:
http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)
About 33% wasted is their figure.
Perhaps Batteroo would be kind enough to publish their data?

From the paper also, 10% were thrown away perfectly new. 

Both figures can easily be attributed to just just human factors and multiple cell devices.  The weak cell dies before the others get to zero and the user throws them all out.

I'm curious how much can be attributed to that, how much is due to an abnormally high device voltage cutoff, or simply a chemical battery recovery issue.

How much usable energy 'comes back' if a battery is discharged hard (like modern cameras) then allowed to 'recover'? 
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 09, 2015, 04:33:11 pm
From the paper also, 10% were thrown away perfectly new. 

Yes, the data will be skewed in terms of being used to backup the Batteriser claims. But it at least puts an upper number on it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 09, 2015, 04:34:23 pm
How much usable energy 'comes back' if a battery is discharged hard (like modern cameras) then allowed to 'recover'?

None. Energy does not and can not magically "come back". The cell voltage is the thing that "comes back".
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 09, 2015, 06:16:15 pm
The cell I had discharged to 0.6V jumped back to 1.06V overnight.
A further discharge with the same load as before gave a start current of 115mA at 0.7V, ending at 90mA when it reached 0.6V again, after 4 minutes.
So, there is very little energy recovery in the chemical process (~7%), at that discharge level.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on June 09, 2015, 07:30:24 pm
As many devices already have a boost converter inside, how do multiple stages of boost converters behave combined?

You get twice the efficiency losses. And the DC-DC in the products usually present a constant power load, which the preceeding DC-DC (Batteriser) might not be as efficient at.

The problem we had is the phenomen known as dynamic energy exchange.
At a certain load, the system swapped between 2 ocillations at 2 eigenfrequencies.

As a separate system, the stability was good, but if we put them together, seems like the stabilisations were playing with eachother.
Another field, but I ask myself if it's maybe possible when putting several DCDC converters after eachother.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 10, 2015, 12:12:07 am
Here is some great data on used battery capacity:
http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)
About 33% wasted is their figure.
Perhaps Batteroo would be kind enough to publish their data?

From the paper also, 10% were thrown away perfectly new. 

Both figures can easily be attributed to just just human factors and multiple cell devices.  The weak cell dies before the others get to zero and the user throws them all out.

I'm curious how much can be attributed to that, how much is due to an abnormally high device voltage cutoff, or simply a chemical battery recovery issue.

How much usable energy 'comes back' if a battery is discharged hard (like modern cameras) then allowed to 'recover'?

Hi there,

No energy really 'comes back', it is all there to begin with, just hiding a little.

In the more advanced electrical battery models there is a secondary storage component, a capacitor, that is smaller than the primary storage component which is a larger capacitor, and the resistance between the smaller cap and the larger cap is larger than the resistance from the battery terminal to the larger capacitor.
What this means is that when the battery is discharged, the larger capacitor voltage is what we measure when we measure the terminal voltage, while the smaller capacitor still has a slightly higher voltage across it because it does not discharge as much as the main capacitor due to the higher resistance.
When the load is finally disconnected, the smaller capacitor slowly recharges the larger main capacitor, and so we see a voltage rise across the battery terminals.
So the battery really looks sort of like two batteries, but they are not directly in parallel they are separated by a resistance that is larger than the so called series resistance of the battery, and the second smaller battery can charge the bigger main battery a little when the load is disconnected.
You might note however that the smaller battery gets it's energy from the regular charge process too just like the larger battery when the whole battery is charged normally, so there is no extra energy coming from anywhere.
This is still using only a simplified model with only two storage elements but that illustrates the main idea from a purely electrical perspective.
There are various battery models available on the web.

To get back to the main subject of the energy left in a battery when it is disconnected before all it's energy is depleted, here is a quick table of cutoff voltages and the total percent that could be attained if the rest of the energy was used too, compared to what is actually used up to that point...


1.4v  2.3hr  12.2x
1.3v  7.6hr   3.7x
1.2v  17.3hr   1.6x
1.1v  24.7hr   1.1x
1.0v  27.8hr   1.0x

For example in the above, if the cutoff voltage is 1.1v then we would only gain around 10 percent more if we depleted it all the way.  If the cutoff voltage was 1.2v however then we would gain about 60 percent more run time.
These numbers come from a typical battery curve for a 100mw load but are not intended to be super accurate, just for comparison to get a feel for how important the voltage cutoff point really is.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brutte on June 10, 2015, 12:47:13 am
I really like the idea. It is not a scam, it is a smart BS.
Mind this is one of these devices whose guaranteed performance cannot be verified. Mostly many in average by 800% often frequently and rarely. OTOH, I could swear I have seen a reputable alkaline battery manufacturer claiming their new product means 7x improvement*.

I have one technical remark regarding Dave's presentation.
When you compare integrals, the surfaces confined by some curves and horizontal axis, and the curves have an offset on the plot (as with the voltage=f(time) under load which was offset by 0.8V on that chart, 13:00), be aware not all of your viewers understand the marked region spans down to 0x axis. I feel that some people would think the energy|charge left in a cell is proportional to what you have covered with the marker, while it is not.

*The asterisk is the key.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: DanielS on June 10, 2015, 01:25:52 am
I'm not so much familiar with battery powered device design. But looking at this product and daves video, I thought: wouldn't do a buck converter a better job in this? So basically it converts the battery voltage always down to let's say 1.1V and when the input is too low it gets bypassed.
Since the batteriser's claim is that many devices stop working at 1.35V, bucking the voltage down to 1.1V would mean the intended devices would never work in the first place now that the fresh battery voltage is lower than the dead battery threshold.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 10, 2015, 07:09:34 am
I really like the idea. It is not a scam, it is a smart BS.
Mind this is one of these devices whose guaranteed performance cannot be verified. Mostly many in average by 800% often frequently and rarely. OTOH, I could swear I have seen a reputable alkaline battery manufacturer claiming their new product means 7x improvement*.

I have one technical remark regarding Dave's presentation.
When you compare integrals, the surfaces confined by some curves and horizontal axis, and the curves have an offset on the plot (as with the voltage=f(time) under load which was offset by 0.8V on that chart, 13:00), be aware not all of your viewers understand the marked region spans down to 0x axis. I feel that some people would think the energy|charge left in a cell is proportional to what you have covered with the marker, while it is not.

*The asterisk is the key.

Hi,

That's a good point.  If the graph does not show anything below some voltage like 0.8 then we are not seeing the entire area, so we might envision the wrong area ratios.
In my post #174 i used a rough curve fit and then solved for the several cutoff voltages and then calculated the ratios, with all calculations using the full curve all th way down to the horizontal axis.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 10, 2015, 07:14:09 am
I'm not so much familiar with battery powered device design. But looking at this product and daves video, I thought: wouldn't do a buck converter a better job in this? So basically it converts the battery voltage always down to let's say 1.1V and when the input is too low it gets bypassed.
Since the batteriser's claim is that many devices stop working at 1.35V, bucking the voltage down to 1.1V would mean the intended devices would never work in the first place now that the fresh battery voltage is lower than the dead battery threshold.

Hi,

The buck converter idea is a very interesting idea, for sure.  If a product could work with less voltage and NOT simultaneously draw more current, then the power consumption would be reduced and so the battery (now properly bucked) would last longer.  For devices with built in boost circuits it would be a waste however because they would just draw more current to make up for the voltage loss :-)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mrkev on June 10, 2015, 07:50:59 am
I'm not so much familiar with battery powered device design. But looking at this product and daves video, I thought: wouldn't do a buck converter a better job in this? So basically it converts the battery voltage always down to let's say 1.1V and when the input is too low it gets bypassed.
Since the batteriser's claim is that many devices stop working at 1.35V, bucking the voltage down to 1.1V would mean the intended devices would never work in the first place now that the fresh battery voltage is lower than the dead battery threshold.

Hi,

The buck converter idea is a very interesting idea, for sure.  If a product could work with less voltage and NOT simultaneously draw more current, then the power consumption would be reduced and so the battery (now properly bucked) would last longer.  For devices with built in boost circuits it would be a waste however because they would just draw more current to make up for the voltage loss :-)

It looks like anything you do, it's generally a bad idea to do it on the battery side. Since you have no way to know what kind of input and even V-A characteristic the device has (f.e. they often consume slightly more current on 1.5V than they would at almost discharged batt).
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 10, 2015, 08:41:53 am
The buck converter idea is a very interesting idea, for sure.  If a product could work with less voltage and NOT simultaneously draw more current, then the power consumption would be reduced and so the battery (now properly bucked) would last longer.  For devices with built in boost circuits it would be a waste however because they would just draw more current to make up for the voltage loss :-)

Buck converters aren't magic, they have efficiency characteristic curves too.
If you want something seamless like this, you need a SEPIC.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MyCo on June 10, 2015, 09:46:19 am
For devices with built in boost circuits it would be a waste however because they would just draw more current to make up for the voltage loss :-)

I wrote "I'm not so much familiar with battery powered device design", that doesn't mean I don't know anything about electronics. Therefor I explicitely mentioned "in linear/unregulated devices"!

Buck converters aren't magic, they have efficiency characteristic curves too.
If you want something seamless like this, you need a SEPIC.

A SEPIC would be too big in size... there are simpler buck-boost solutions. But that wasn't the point I wanted to make at all. Because the efficiency characteristic wouldn't matter that much in the buck converter idea, because the energy wasted by the buck converter would be lost anyway in linear/unregulated devices as I mentioned before.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 10, 2015, 10:02:16 am
But that wasn't the point I wanted to make at all. Because the efficiency characteristic wouldn't matter that much in the buck converter idea, because the energy wasted by the buck converter would be lost anyway in linear/unregulated devices as I mentioned before.

So what's the point of the buck converter idea then? Waste the energy in the linear reg in the product, or waste it in the efficiency of the buck converter, same thing either way.
Sure, just like the Batteriser you could find a sweet spot where it's advantageous, but overall it's going to be quite pointless.
And you still have the downside of the battery gauge always showing empty.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MyCo on June 10, 2015, 10:12:30 am
Waste the energy in the linear reg in the product, or waste it in the efficiency of the buck converter, same thing either way.

Oh, c'mon Dave. You know that's not true.

And you still have the downside of the battery gauge always showing empty.

There are a lot of products that don't have a gauge, and in many others you actually don't care. And in most linear/unregulated products that's the case.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Someone on June 10, 2015, 11:08:51 am
I really like the idea. It is not a scam, it is a smart BS.
Mind this is one of these devices whose guaranteed performance cannot be verified. Mostly many in average by 800% often frequently and rarely. OTOH, I could swear I have seen a reputable alkaline battery manufacturer claiming their new product means 7x improvement*.
*The asterisk is the key.
Energizer certainly promote their Lithium line as having up to 6x and 9x the life span of quality alkaline batteries, based only on the industry standard "camera" discharge test. Notable is their lack of application data for the less reputable A91 eveready gold alkaline, which could have arbitrarily high internal impedance to keep it as a low performance tier while still being an "alkaline" cell.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: westfw on June 10, 2015, 06:49:50 pm
Quote
what's the point of the buck converter idea then?
A lot of unregulated linear devices will have ohms-law-like current consumption, drawing more current at 1.5V than at 1.2V.   If they actually operate acceptably at 1.2V, you could extend battery life.  A flashlight bulb will run longer with 1.2V cells than 1.5V cells, assuming the same WH in the actual battery and no conversion losses.   It will also run dimmer, which is where "operate acceptably" comes in.
Similarly, a motor would run longer and slower (but at more constant speed as the battery runs down), which might make sense in some toys.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 10, 2015, 07:10:46 pm
Quote
what's the point of the buck converter idea then?
A lot of unregulated linear devices will have ohms-law-like current consumption, drawing more current at 1.5V than at 1.2V.   If they actually operate acceptably at 1.2V, you could extend battery life.  A flashlight bulb will run longer with 1.2V cells than 1.5V cells, assuming the same WH in the actual battery and no conversion losses.   It will also run dimmer, which is where "operate acceptably" comes in.
Similarly, a motor would run longer and slower (but at more constant speed as the battery runs down), which might make sense in some toys.
It would probably work better as a battery extender than this 'boost' nonsense.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 10, 2015, 07:29:01 pm
Waste the energy in the linear reg in the product, or waste it in the efficiency of the buck converter, same thing either way.

Oh, c'mon Dave. You know that's not true.

Assume 1.3V input to a 1V linear reg, with 1A output.
That's 0.3W drop in the voltage reg.
Use a buck converter to covert same 1.3V to 1V output at 1A. Assume 70% efficient converter and you still drop 0.3W in the switching reg.
Looks like I'm right in the ballpark.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on June 10, 2015, 08:59:23 pm
A lot of unregulated linear devices will have ohms-law-like current consumption, drawing more current at 1.5V than at 1.2V.   If they actually operate acceptably at 1.2V, you could extend battery life.  A flashlight bulb will run longer with 1.2V cells than 1.5V cells, assuming the same WH in the actual battery and no conversion losses.

His entire marketing strategy run's on the assumption that devices don't work on a 1.2V cell voltage.
But there is more, just look at a graph from his own patent.

Here he is actually stepping up a bit to 1.8V. This might not be the case in the final product, but I could imagine that a small step is actually required for the circuit to properly work.
So if you have a linear device, it could use more power right from the start.

And with this graph his also showing himself how much of the advantage of this batteriser disappears if the cut-off voltage is only dropping from 1.4 to 1.35V.


Edit:
Little (ok big) misinterpretation from my side:
He is actually comparing the time he can generate a fixed voltage against the time that a battery would otherwise be above 1.39 or 1.35 Volt. That gives him approx 7 times more battery life. I was confused by the fact that he showed a voltage of 1.8V in this graph. The text clearly states that he generates 1.5V no matter what the battery does:
Quote
A fresh AA battery provides a voltage to regulator 105 in the range of 1.5V to 1.6V. Output 102 of regulator 105 is then regulated to 1.5V,
So the difference between the text and the graph is a bit strange.

But you can also see that if your device otherwise goes down to 1V, then the batteriser will kindly half your battery life.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 10, 2015, 11:40:15 pm
Hello again,

Back to the buck idea again for a moment...

If the input is 1.5v and the output is 1.1v and the device can tolerate that, the efficiency using a linear regulator to go from 1.5 down to 1.1 would be about 36 percent better than without it assuming the load is resistive.  This is mostly because the resistive load draws less current at the lower voltage.

For the same operating conditions and load, the buck converter operating at 90 percent efficiency would raise the efficiency by about 69 percent, which is about twice that of the linear.  This is because of the two factors: the load current falls because of the lower voltage and the buck circuit provides a true power conversion.

They both fall short though as the battery voltage falls down to 1.4v, 1.3v, etc., as the efficiency would not be as good anymore.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brutte on June 11, 2015, 12:34:17 am
I have one technical remark regarding Dave's presentation.
That's a good point.(..) In my post #174 i used a rough curve fit and then solved for the several cutoff voltages and then calculated the ratios
Another thing worth noting is that the integral of u(t) on a power=const curve does not represent any meaningful quantity (that I know of). The area is proportional to the integral of reciprocal of i(t).
The energy left that you/we were interested in is simply proportional to the distance left on the time axis on that chart - no need to integrate anything (that is the core idea of that chart anyway). I have just noticed that you follow Dave's mistake (13:00). Oops.

If you would like the area to be proportional to something meaningful, I'd suggest integrating either voltage of constant current discharge curve (then the area is proportional to the energy) or simply integrating current on a current=f(something) chart (then the area is proportional to the charge).
Still, my previous offset remark applies.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 12, 2015, 12:17:36 am
I have one technical remark regarding Dave's presentation.
That's a good point.(..) In my post #174 i used a rough curve fit and then solved for the several cutoff voltages and then calculated the ratios
Another thing worth noting is that the integral of u(t) on a power=const curve does not represent any meaningful quantity (that I know of). The area is proportional to the integral of reciprocal of i(t).
The energy left that you/we were interested in is simply proportional to the distance left on the time axis on that chart - no need to integrate anything (that is the core idea of that chart anyway). I have just noticed that you follow Dave's mistake (13:00). Oops.

If you would like the area to be proportional to something meaningful, I'd suggest integrating either voltage of constant current discharge curve (then the area is proportional to the energy) or simply integrating current on a current=f(something) chart (then the area is proportional to the charge).
Still, my previous offset remark applies.

Hi,

I am not sure why but you must have misinterpreted my post, or else i did not explain what i did clearly enough.

First, i never integrated anything.  All i did was do a quick curve fit of the constant power curve, then solved for specific voltage set points that are easy to relate to such as 1.4, 1.3, 1.2, and 1.1 volts.  So there was no area calculation of any kind, just one calculation for the exact voltage set point, then another calculation for the ratio of two time values in hours.
The first calculation is just like using the inverse function of the constant power discharge curve, which given a voltage, yields a time in hours.  The ratio is then the time in hours to discharge to 0.8v divided by the time to discharge to the given voltage set point (such as 1.3v).  This ratio is then a number like 1.6, and because that is a ratio that expresses the entire gain the actual gain over a normal run without any circuit would be 1, so the gain with a circuit (that works that is) would be 1.6-1 and of course this equals 0.6 and that is the percent gain in time expressed as a fraction so this would mean 60 percent more run time.
Also just to be clear, this would be with a boost circuit that is 100 percent efficient with any input voltage.  We'd have to cut this back of course for a boost circuit that ranges from 50 to 90 percent efficient, and if they got 95 percent efficiency from their circuit i'd be very surprised seeing as they dont know how to calculate anything else <little chuckle> :-)

Short form of the math i used:
For v(t) = approximate constant power discharge curve,
t = T(v), where T is the inverse function of v(t), and t in hours, v in volts,
t1=T(0.8 ), the time to discharge to 0.8v, in hours,
then the total gain ratio is:
r(t)=t1/t for any given time t, or:
r(v)=t1/T(v) for any given cutoff voltage.

I'll also point out that the curve from 0.8v to 0.6v is almost a straight line down so there is very little gain in time to add there if we went all the way down to 0.6v.

So we see ratios of about 1.0 to 12 or so, but many of these cutoff points are not realistic that's what makes this whole product seem like a bunch of bool crap :-)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on June 14, 2015, 12:18:44 am
Today the Batteriser hit the German mainstream news:
 http://www.welt.de/wissenschaft/article142416810/So-sollen-Batterien-acht-Mal-laenger-halten.html (http://www.welt.de/wissenschaft/article142416810/So-sollen-Batterien-acht-Mal-laenger-halten.html)

At least they are asking some very good and critical questions.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dizzwold on June 18, 2015, 06:45:43 am
I also wonder about the figures quoted. My trackpad '2x 1.5v AA's', drops off at about 1.1v. So realistically, we're all get more value for our money than the Batteriser states.
The one thing that i do find odd in the demo video 'used with a wireless Mac keyboard', is they use 2 batteries in series, then 2 batteries again with the devices fitted in series? If these are simple 1.5v step up converters on each battery, how do they get the required 3v. The batteries on there own, i can appreciate that, but then having a circuit on each battery, then put them in series, your surly adding a reverse polarity to 1 of those circuits.
Does that make sense, or am i having a senior moment?
How is this done?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: DanielS on June 19, 2015, 08:15:21 am
The batteries on there own, i can appreciate that, but then having a circuit on each battery, then put them in series, your surly adding a reverse polarity to 1 of those circuits.
Each battery gets "boosted" to 1.5V by its own boost converter, no reverse polarity there unless one of the cells is too weak to operate its booster.

This gets really silly since:
1- boosting individual cells is horribly inefficient compared to boosting (or bucking) the total voltage only once
2- I bet the majority of semi-recent Apple and other decent quality products have their own internal buck/boost converters
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dizzwold on June 19, 2015, 11:23:52 pm
@DanileS,

 Thanks for that, regarding 'boost the total voltage', not each cell, but;
If each cell has it's own booster, powered from the + & - of the cell, when you put 2 in series your supplying the 2nd cell with 1.5v's from the 1st cell, your also supplying 1.5v's to the ground of the second cells booster circuit?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ruffy91 on June 20, 2015, 12:20:47 am
Yes. So you add 1.5V of the second booster to the 1.5V of the first booster and get 1.5V+1.5V=3V
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on June 22, 2015, 12:10:43 pm
Yes. So you add 1.5V of the second booster to the 1.5V of the first booster and get 1.5V+1.5V=3V

Wait... wait... two batteries?!?!?!  all you have to do is add a wheel and some magnets and you get......

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-708-free-energy-bullshit (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-708-free-energy-bullshit)!/

Where is DaveWing when you need him!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on June 26, 2015, 03:18:02 am
Since many cheap devices use more energy at higher voltage (eg if it has a linear regulator inside or is completely unregulated), boosting the voltage to a constant 1.5 might actually reduce battery life, add to that the losses in the converter itself. :palm:
Well designed devices will already have a custom tailored boost converter inside if there's any benefit to it. I would be surprised (and even impressed) if this thing doesn't reduce battery life in most devices. So yeah: :bullshit:

Also there could be performance problem because the boost regulator will introduce a lot of ripple noise, some battery operated devices rely on the low noise characteristic of a battery voltage source.

The only benefit one should hope to get from this is to squeeze a few extra drops out of an already "dead" battery: the question is if this gadget will be able to generate enough extra operating time in that case that it would be worth the trouble. Will be interesting to see some actual tests of this thing.

There really should be laws against marketing scams like this.

The problem we had is the phenomen known as dynamic energy exchange.
At a certain load, the system swapped between 2 ocillations at 2 eigenfrequencies.

As a separate system, the stability was good, but if we put them together, seems like the stabilisations were playing with eachother.
Another field, but I ask myself if it's maybe possible when putting several DCDC converters after eachother.
Interesting so they were acting sort of like coupled oscillators or some such?

UPDATE:
They now also have a video "proving" that it works by showing how the battery gauge goes up from 13% to 100% like magic when you add the batterizer! This is definitely 100% bs.

https://vimeo.com/130292451
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 27, 2015, 07:37:29 am
UPDATE:
They now also have a video "proving" that it works by showing how the battery gauge goes up from 13% to 100% like magic when you add the batterizer! This is definitely 100% bs.

vimeo.com/130292451

"Comments have been disabled for this video..."   :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 27, 2015, 08:54:30 am
UPDATE:
They now also have a video "proving" that it works by showing how the battery gauge goes up from 13% to 100% like magic when you add the batterizer! This is definitely 100% bs.

vimeo.com/130292451

"Comments have been disabled for this video..."   :-DD

Gee, I wonder why...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 27, 2015, 09:10:14 am
From their FAQ:
Quote
Are there limitations on devices that can use the Batteriser based on the current consumptions? No, the Batteriser sleeve is designed to deliver as much current as a battery is able to supply to the device.

Really, no limitations on current? At all?
No change in the expected life gain based on current? At all?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on June 29, 2015, 09:43:53 am
On some other forum someone mentioned a "joule thief 2.0" which allegedly works sort of like a voltage doubler/charge pump. An IC would switch capacitors so that they charge in parallel and then unload in series so that you get higher voltage out. Would that work in this case? Not sure if that's what the batteriser does but it could explain why there is no large inductor visible. Still couldn't work as advertised though since Daves debunking arguments are valid no matter how it operates.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 29, 2015, 08:12:04 pm
On some other forum someone mentioned a "joule thief 2.0" which allegedly works sort of like a voltage doubler/charge pump. An IC would switch capacitors so that they charge in parallel and then unload in series so that you get higher voltage out. Would that work in this case?
It might, but ... in this case you definitely don't want to double the voltage. It would wreck stuff.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 29, 2015, 08:19:13 pm
From their FAQ:
Quote
Are there limitations on devices that can use the Batteriser based on the current consumptions? No, the Batteriser sleeve is designed to deliver as much current as a battery is able to supply to the device.

Really, no limitations on current? At all?
No change in the expected life gain based on current? At all?
I think this statement is the least of their sins. Most devices won't be discharging at a current that would cause problems.

Maybe that's why their inductor is so small - they assume very small currents (and, hey, a battery is quite a big heatsink if you make it work hard).

Their whole strategy isn't based on this thing working well. It's about selling as many as they can to the sort of people who'll just shrug when it doesn't work out as promised.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on June 30, 2015, 02:55:15 am
On some other forum someone mentioned a "joule thief 2.0" which allegedly works sort of like a voltage doubler/charge pump. An IC would switch capacitors so that they charge in parallel and then unload in series so that you get higher voltage out. Would that work in this case?
It might, but ... in this case you definitely don't want to double the voltage. It would wreck stuff.
Yes, but with a little bit extra you should be able to regulate the output to between 1x and 2x the input voltage, that should work down to approx 0.75V which is what the batteriser claims to do. I googled a little and found this IC from maxim: MAX682 (http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/power/charge-pumps/MAX682.html). You should be able to do the same for approximately 0.75-1.5V in and get regulated 1.5V out. I have never used this type of converter so not sure if there's some downside to it that prevents it from working in this case but it could explain how they got it so small and why there is no inductor visible, only requires three relatively small capacitors. Of course there will be current limitations and losses in this type of regulator as well and the 1.4V cutoff assumption is false no matter how it works.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 30, 2015, 03:21:22 am
On some other forum someone mentioned a "joule thief 2.0" which allegedly works sort of like a voltage doubler/charge pump. An IC would switch capacitors so that they charge in parallel and then unload in series so that you get higher voltage out. Would that work in this case?
It might, but ... in this case you definitely don't want to double the voltage. It would wreck stuff.
Yes, but with a little bit extra you should be able to regulate the output to between 1x and 2x the input voltage, that should work down to approx 0.75V which is what the batteriser claims to do.
How is that better than just regulating it directly to 1.5V?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on June 30, 2015, 04:09:16 am
I think the benefit compared to typical boost circuit is that it is easier to miniaturize since you don't need the inductor.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on June 30, 2015, 04:22:04 am
They guy popped up in the youtube comments, in full-retard repetitive mode.
Saying something about ESR and internal resistance, patents and PhD's.....
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on June 30, 2015, 04:41:44 am
It's a safe bet someone is wrong when their only argument is they have a PhD.  ::)

If it really does work they could always send Dave a prototype for testing, would be interesting. :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 30, 2015, 05:03:32 am
I think the benefit compared to typical boost circuit is that it is easier to miniaturize since you don't need the inductor.
But if you double the voltage you have to regulate it down again so that needs an inductor.

(Unless you're thinking of using a linear regulator and throwing away half the battery power...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on June 30, 2015, 05:04:42 am
On some other forum someone mentioned a "joule thief 2.0" which allegedly works sort of like a voltage doubler/charge pump. An IC would switch capacitors so that they charge in parallel and then unload in series so that you get higher voltage out. Would that work in this case?
It might, but ... in this case you definitely don't want to double the voltage. It would wreck stuff.
Yes, but with a little bit extra you should be able to regulate the output to between 1x and 2x the input voltage, that should work down to approx 0.75V which is what the batteriser claims to do. I googled a little and found this IC from maxim: MAX682 (http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/power/charge-pumps/MAX682.html). You should be able to do the same for approximately 0.75-1.5V in and get regulated 1.5V out. I have never used this type of converter so not sure if there's some downside to it that prevents it from working in this case but it could explain how they got it so small and why there is no inductor visible, only requires three relatively small capacitors. Of course there will be current limitations and losses in this type of regulator as well and the 1.4V cutoff assumption is false no matter how it works.
The main problem with all those switched capacitor converters is the efficiency: It can only adjust the voltage in multiples of the input voltage. If you generate 1.5V from a 1.4V battery this voltage gets doubled to 2.8V and the difference to 1.5V wasted as heat. The MAX682 datasheet has no efficiency vs input voltage diagram, but it shows on page 4 the efficiency for a number of different input voltages. Unlike inductor bases converters, the efficiency drops when the input voltage increases.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 30, 2015, 05:06:13 am
They guy popped up in the youtube comments, in full-retard repetitive mode.
Saying something about ESR and internal resistance, patents and PhD's.....
I'm just hoping it blows up in his face before he has time to rip anybody off.

Seriously, why isn't the news all over this? I thought new outlets loved uncovering fraudsters.

There should be reporters hounding him for answers and making him look stupid on national TV. I'd pay to watch that.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on June 30, 2015, 05:46:58 am
But if you double the voltage you have to regulate it down again so that needs an inductor.

(Unless you're thinking of using a linear regulator and throwing away half the battery power...)
Based on the datasheet it looks like they charge the output capacitor only when it's below a threshold voltage (i.e. the desired output voltage), so doesn't use a linear regulator. But as bktemp says efficiency is low anyway?

---
So they have also put up a "batteriser fan page ::)" on google plus, claiming that engineers don't know about battery ESR
Quote
Most electronic engineers are not very familiar with intricate details of the inter-workings of batteries and its equivalent circuit models. Batteries have an internal impedance or resistance (ESR) that plays a major role in operation of a battery in a system.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on June 30, 2015, 06:27:30 am
I'm not sure what datasheet you're referring to
I was looking at the MAX682 (http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/power/charge-pumps/MAX682.html) on page 6 there's a block diagram (Figure 3. Skip-Mode Regulation). Yes there would be a lot of ripple.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 30, 2015, 04:10:05 pm
I'm not sure what datasheet you're referring to
I was looking at the MAX682 (http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/power/charge-pumps/MAX682.html) on page 6 there's a block diagram (Figure 3. Skip-Mode Regulation).
OK.

Quick glance says it needs 1µF caps per 100mA of output current. This thing needs to put out more than 100mA so would it really be smaller than an inductor?

Yes there would be a lot of ripple.
I imagine so...  :o
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 30, 2015, 07:23:23 pm
To keep the ripple in check you you might need a fourth capacitor across the battery so that the two parallel-series-switched capacitors in the middle will charge up faster (it will have a lower ESR than the battery).
I almost got it...  :)

The way they do it is to permanently connect one of the two 'charge transfer' capacitors across the source (ie. it doesn't switch). The chip only switches the other charge transfer capacitor between series/parallel to charge up the main output capacitor.

Pity it needs a 2.7V input. That means you can't run it from 2 batteries, it really limits its usefulness.  :(

Wait! I heard about this thing called 'The Batteriser' that can fix that problem!!


Update: I checked out Maxims other chips and there's one that can use an extra capacitor to triple the input voltage and get 5V from two batteries - the MAX619 (http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/power/charge-pumps/MAX619.html#popuppdf). Not very efficient though, only 60-70% with two batteries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on June 30, 2015, 07:34:18 pm
Update: I checked out Maxims other chips and there's one that can use an extra capacitor to triple the input voltage and get 5V from two batteries - the MAX619 (http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/power/charge-pumps/MAX619.html#popuppdf). Not very efficient though, only 60-70% with two batteries.
On page 3 there is a nice EFFICIENCY vs. INPUT VOLTAGE diagram showing the efficiency jump hat 2.5-3.0V when it switches from 3x to 2x mode.
If you want higher efficiency use a boost converter like MCP1640 or TPS6109x and many others. They all have a higher efficiency and lower ripple current. The inductors can be really small at >1MHz switching frequency. That is why charge pumps are rarely used in such applications.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 30, 2015, 07:48:58 pm
Update: I checked out Maxims other chips and there's one that can use an extra capacitor to triple the input voltage and get 5V from two batteries - the MAX619 (http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/power/charge-pumps/MAX619.html#popuppdf). Not very efficient though, only 60-70% with two batteries.
On page 3 there is a nice EFFICIENCY vs. INPUT VOLTAGE diagram showing the efficiency jump hat 2.5-3.0V when it switches from 3x to 2x mode.
Yep, I saw that. It's where I got my 60-70% figure from.

I'm sure these chips have their place. I was interested because they come in DIP packages so it would be easy for a hacker like me to add one to some perf-board in a battery-powered Arduino project.

OTOH I can get little inductor-based booster boards on eBay for a lot less money (MAXIM pricing!). And they work down to 0.7V. And they need less soldering.

If you want higher efficiency use a boost converter. The inductors can be really small at >1MHz switching frequency.
I wonder if that's what The Batteriser uses...?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 30, 2015, 11:12:07 pm
Someone pointed me to this response from Batteriser, apparently in response to my video and criticism from others:
https://plus.google.com/+BatteriserBatteroo/posts/8emCWUBJbve (https://plus.google.com/+BatteriserBatteroo/posts/8emCWUBJbve)
Apparently it's a non-affiliated "fan page"  ::)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A)
Yeah right, someone went to all the trouble to make a fan page for a startup tech, and they go around defending the product in comments, like on this video here, yeah that sounds totally legit  ::)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOMYDkxUWt8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOMYDkxUWt8)  :-DD

It's late and I couldn't be bothered reading it all, so go for it...

Quoted here in full in case it vanishes:
Quote

After seeing all the skepticism online, the Batteriser inventors answered a Q and A! We got a hold of the that Q and A with Batteriser! Here it is and I hope it helps you all get a better understanding of the product:
“Question 1: In the articles I have seen about Batteriser, your CEO claims that most battery operated devices stop working at around 1.3 or even higher. I have seen videos online that someone connects a power supply and shows that some typical devices work down to 1.1V or even lower, showing LED’s on a device still blink at that level. What is the explanation?
Answer:  There are multiple aspects to this issue. Let’s start with the less complicated aspect:
1.   Just because LED in a device is blinking, it doesn’t mean the device is fully functional. In one of our experiments with an RC remote, at 1.3 volt the car would only go forward, but not backwards. We use the voltage that the device is no longer fully functional as the cut off voltage rather than the voltage that the device’s LED is still blinking. In yet another example that most people can relate to, we all have had experience with our TV remotes. Once a battery gets to a low level, even though the LED blinks, you literally have to walk right up to the TV for it to work. Again, the batteries are considered dead by most, long before LED’s stop blinking. So the levels demonstrated in experiments like that are artificially too low.
2.   Using a Power Supply to detect, where a battery operated device stops working is wrong and misleading at best. A power supply has 0 ohm impedance and can supply high current at a constant voltage. A typical AA battery has internal resistance called ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) which is vastly different than an ideal power supply.  Most electronic engineers are not very familiar with intricate details of the inter-workings of batteries and its equivalent circuit models. Batteries have an internal impedance or resistance (ESR) that plays a major role in operation of a battery in a system. To Quote from Wikipedia: In use, the voltage across the terminals of a disposable battery driving a load decreases until it drops too low to be useful; this is largely due to an increase in internal resistance rather than a drop in the voltage of the equivalent source (source: Wikipedia). In other words, when a battery is perceived to be dead in a device, it is most likely NOT because the battery is fully depleted of energy, rather it is largely due to voltage drop across this internal resistance of the battery. I will get into more details below.
3.   The third aspect may be the difference in definition of the voltages being quoted. There are two distinct ways of looking at voltages that people discuss but sometimes mistakenly interchange.   One is the Open Circuit Voltage (referred to voltage at no load condition) and the other one is the Closed Voltage Circuit (referred to voltage under load condition). The two numbers that are quoted from the CEO and your question is an example of this incorrect interchange.
To fully appreciate the totality of the picture, Let us talk about ESR (Equivalent Series Resistor). To understand how ESR interacts at a circuit level, let’s go to Wikipedia:
A practical electrical power source which is a linear electric circuit may, according to Thévenin's theorem, be represented as an ideal voltage source in series with an impedance. This impedance is termed the internal resistance of the source. When the power source delivers current, the measured voltage output is lower than the no-load voltage; the difference is the voltage drop (the product of current and resistance) caused by the internal resistance.
A battery may be modeled as a voltage source in series with a resistance. In practice, the internal resistance of a battery is dependent on its size, chemical properties, age, temperature, and the discharge current. It has an electronic component due to the resistivity of the component materials and an ionic component due to electrochemical factors such as electrolyte conductivity, ion mobility, and electrode surface area. Measurement of the internal resistance of a battery is a guide to its condition, but may not apply at other than the test conditions.
In use, the voltage across the terminals of a disposable battery driving a load decreases until it drops too low to be useful; this is largely due to an increase in internal resistance rather than a drop in the voltage of the equivalent source.
To learn more, please, visit Energizer’s technical Bulletin at http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/BatteryIR.pdf. (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/BatteryIR.pdf.) The data from this bulletin shows that the typical effective resistance of fresh Energizer alkaline cylindrical batteries will be approximately 150 to 300 m-ohms at room temperature. It further shows that at very cold temperatures, this initial internal resistance value could be as high as 900 m-ohm, or roughly 1 ohm. This resistance further increases as the battery is used. Therefore the ESR value of a fresh new AA battery has an approximate range of 150 m-ohm to 900 m-ohm depending on temperature, chemistry, types and brands of batteries. While a resistance of 1 ohm may be considered insignificant and ignored by some people, we will see that it plays a major role in the final analysis as highlighted above in the Wikipedia description in the paragraph above.
For the sake of this analysis, assume 0.5 ohm as the internal resistance, which is a typical value for a battery at 1.3v (Open Circuit Voltage). If a device draws 400mA of current, the drop across this internal resistance is around 0.2v. This means that the device would see only 1.1V at the terminal of the battery.
The third aspect of the question is that when Batteroo’s CEO talks about batteries stop functioning at 1.3V, if you place that battery in a device described above, under load, the terminals of the battery would provide only 1.1V to the device and that is where the questioner agrees the device stops functioning. This is most likely the source of the discrepancy between what you stated as the low range of operation of devices vs. what is quoted as the open voltage of the batteries by the company.
Going back to your question that there are devices that operate at 1.1V but based on what we just showed this device will not function because it needs to have current supplied  from a battery with terminal voltage of 1.1 V. This means that the device would not be functioning properly around 1.3 V open voltage circuit (i.e. open circuit voltage of 1.3 v minus about 0.2v drop across ESR would produce a battery terminal voltage of 1.1 v seen by the device) …. Therefore the battery open voltage circuit must be 1.3 v or higher.
This is an important point which plays a significant role and has been missed and ignored. In other words, once a device with the operating point of 1.1v stops working, and the battery is pulled out and measured without load, the meter would show 1.3V. This has been a source of confusion for some people that hopefully is cleared.
To emphasize the point, ignoring the internal resistance of the battery leads to wrong conclusions. For example, some who ignored the ESR, would wrongly assume that a device that has an operating cut off voltage of 1.1V, can be serviced by a battery at 1.1V Open Circuit Voltage. It is noteworthy that the internal resistance of the battery increases to over 1.5  ohm in a non-linear fashion at room temperature (depending on many factors, and could be significantly higher at colder temperature. 
Question 2: I measured a used battery voltage using volt-meter and showed 1.2v. This toy can work all the way down to 1.1v but it is not working. Why?
Answer:  The fact that you battery is not working indicates that the closed circuit voltage is seen by the toy when is turned on is less than 1 volt. This suggests that your voltage drop across the internal resistance (ESR) is greater than 0.2 volts.
This 0.2 voltage drop is multiplication of load current and the ESR value of battery which indicated that the battery has high ESR and/or your toy is drawing a few hundred milliamps of current…
Let us say your toy is drawing 300 ma and the battery ESR is about 0.7 ohm, then your toy sees the terminal battery voltage to be under 1 volt; (i.e. open circuit of 1.2v minus the voltage drop across ESR  0.7 ohm times 300 ma is equal to closed circuit voltage of about  0.99 volt which is under 1 volt)   
Question 3: The relationship between current and voltage makes it impossible for a boosted battery to deliver such great gains, up to 8x. Besides the example below, there’s this one from Reddit: “In order to increase the voltage supplied to the target electronics, you would have to draw more current. Therefore as the battery voltage droops, the current draw will increase. Alkaline battery capacity is greatly affected by the current the cell is subjected to, with effective capacity dropping off a cliff as the current consumption increases.”
Answer:  Every system, boosted or not, has voltage and currents relationship and to say: "The relationship between current and voltage makes it impossible for a boosted battery to deliver such great gains, from 5x to 8x" is meaningless. However the most important aspect of extending the life of the battery has to do with how much of the energy left in the battery and how much of that energy can be harnessed after the battery is considered dead, depending on the specifics of devices and load conditions. Obviously to get these types of gains implies that there is significant amount of energy left is the battery as it is discarded. That could be improved by better device design that allow the circuitry to work at lower voltages, and there are devices in the market that are better than others and therefore the mileage would vary based on such  factors.
It is true that as the voltage drops, there is some increase in the current. However that current is being consumed from the energy that was in the battery and was going to be discarded at the point it was perceived to be dead.
Question 4: How does flash light benefit from Batteriser?
Answer: There are two types of devices, one with Passive load and the other with Active load:
 1.   Passive loads such as Flashlights that draw the current out of the battery until it is depleted, but the intensity of the light becomes too low for it to be useful. We measured the intensity of the light from a flashlight on a side by side comparison of, with and without Batteriser. They both started at 60 lux and after two hours, the flashlight utilizing the Batteriser maintained its 60 lux light intensity while the flashlight without Batteriser decreased its intensity to 25 lux.
2.  Active Loads such as electronic devices that usually have a cut off voltage.
Question 5: There are some well-built devices have dc-dc conversion (or similar power management) built in, so Batteriser wouldn’t help. For example, this comment was made on Reddit: “For something like a GameBoy, it actually DOES include a good switching power supply, which is why it got great runtime out of those batteries. The DMG01 was quite happy down to nearly 3V (less than 0.8V per cell, anyway).”
Answer: The question above is an actual proof of why the Batteriser is going to extend the life of the battery. The assertion that a GameBoy device is benefiting from a DC-DC and getting “great runtime” is a validation of the concept of the Batteriser. There are systems that have or may have designed these types of converters inside their electronics. Such devices are usually expensive and putting the added cost of the electronics is offset by the competitive advantage gained relative to their competition. As well, this example implies that the system must have 4 AA batteries. There are regulators in the market that would boost voltages at these levels. Batteriser uses a boost circuitry that can work down to 0.5v. You will not find any solutions in the market that allows systems with single battery boosting capabilities. Batteroo had to design a custom IC that allows boosting of the voltage from 0.5V and currents of over one Amp steady state at very high efficiency. In many systems that use one AA battery, there is no solutions in the market to provide the same benefits of extended life.
Question 6: In low-drain devices like (I assume) a TV remote, the actual shelf life of the battery will be over before the Batteriser delivers noticeable gains. For example, this comment on Macworld: “Since most batteries (excluding some lithium types) have shelf lives of say 5 years or less, then taking a low drain application scenario where the batteries will naturally last two years or more (i.e. a remote…), then boosting the battery life by the claimed 8X would mean your 5 years shelf-life battery would be “good-to-go” for up to 40 years!  Doesn’t take an engineer to tell you “it ain’t gonna happen!!”
Answer: Batteriser does work with voltage and current, regardless of the chemistry. We have seen improvement even with lithium battery. For those folks that change a battery every 5 years, we recommend not to utilize Batteriser technology.  However if you are like most of us living in an average household having 25 battery operated devices and having to continuously change batteries, Batteriser would certainly be a good choice to extend the time between battery changes by 8x depending on the end device.”?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 30, 2015, 11:19:19 pm
 :-DD  :-DD
Anyone who can identify these models/actors, err, sorry, "fans", wins a lifetime supply of Batterisers!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP2kuEzySP8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP2kuEzySP8)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 30, 2015, 11:29:56 pm
It gets even funnier!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkfdm8soHyU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkfdm8soHyU)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 01, 2015, 02:06:13 am
It gets even funnier!
Australian accents add comedy to anything they touch.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 01, 2015, 08:17:11 am
Yeah right, someone went to all the trouble to make a fan page for a startup tech, and they go around defending the product in comments, like on this video here, yeah that sounds totally legit  ::)
Yeah, those videos look totally fan made. :palm: Maybe the "fans" just accidentally hired the same pr-firm that the batterizer uses! :-DD

It's late and I couldn't be bothered reading it all, so go for it...
That is probably the point, it's important to put up a rebuttal, but they don't wan't anyone to read it too carefully or else they might spot the BS. I especially like how they claim most electrical engineers don't know about ESR.  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 01, 2015, 08:24:37 am
I especially like how they claim most electrical engineers don't know about ESR.  :-DD

The funniest thing about them claiming I didn't take into account ESR in my PSU test, is that if I did take ESR into account (i.e. the drop in the test leads and connection in the PSU case), then the results would have been better for my case and worse for their case  :palm:
By not taking the test leads and connection drop into account I was cutting them some slack. Of course, the battery discharge curves do take into account ESR, so any argument there is silly and it's clear they have no idea what they are talking about. And that's obvious to any competent engineer without having even reading their (I'm sure) waffle.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 01, 2015, 08:46:21 am
Yeah, and if it was legit it would be so easy for them to prove it, just send out a device for testing. I would happily think it's a success if it gives only 25% extra battery-life (in most devices)! (But the typical scammer response to this is that they can't because then you will steal their trade secrets...)

EDIT:
Yes, they seem to be arguing the 1.4V cutoff voltage refers to unloaded battery voltage, but then the claim of 80% wasted energy makes no sense, just proves you were right. :-//  :palm:

And that's obvious to any competent engineer without having even reading their (I'm sure) waffle.
it's probably not intended to fool engineers, it's some complicated sounding waffle to comfort those in doubt who don't know any electronics.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 01, 2015, 09:33:24 am
Yeah, and if it was legit it would be so easy for them to prove it, just send out a device for testing. I would happily think it's a success if it gives only 25% extra battery-life (in most devices)! (But the typical scammer response to this is that they can't because then you will steal their trade secrets...)

They claim on their Facebook page they will release the data and prove their claims.
They claim they are still compiling the data. So they've spent several years developing this, patents applications, are rpactically on the verge of selling production ready parts, have had countless time and energy to produce slick marketign campaign, but they haven't been able to compile data that proves beyond doubt that their product actually works as well as claimed?  :-//
Skeptical engineers like us are very easy to shut up, just show us the data that proves it and we'll happily admit we were wrong and that this is the best thing since sliced bread.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=159117;image)

Quote
Yes, they seem to be arguing the 1.4V cutoff voltage refers to unloaded battery voltage, but then the claim of 80% wasted energy makes no sense, just proves you were right. :-//  :palm:

That's the only conclusion any engineer can too, they are measuring the unloaded battery voltage. In whcih case they aren't taking into account the ESR during operation, and it's a fundamentally wrong way to measure battery voltage for remaining capacity calculations.
They are running out of legs to stand on.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 01, 2015, 10:12:23 am
Quote

The third aspect of the question is that when Batteroo’s CEO talks about batteries stop functioning at 1.3V, if you place that battery in a device described above, under load, the terminals of the battery would provide only 1.1V to the device and that is where the questioner agrees the device stops functioning. This is most likely the source of the discrepancy between what you stated as the low range of operation of devices vs. what is quoted as the open voltage of the batteries by the company.
Going back to your question that there are devices that operate at 1.1V but based on what we just showed this device will not function because it needs to have current supplied  from a battery with terminal voltage of 1.1 V. This means that the device would not be functioning properly around 1.3 V open voltage circuit (i.e. open circuit voltage of 1.3 v minus about 0.2v drop across ESR would produce a battery terminal voltage of 1.1 v seen by the device) …. Therefore the battery open voltage circuit must be 1.3 v or higher.
This is an important point which plays a significant role and has been missed and ignored. In other words, once a device with the operating point of 1.1v stops working, and the battery is pulled out and measured without load, the meter would show 1.3V. This has been a source of confusion for some people that hopefully is cleared.

Holy crap!
They actually did admit that they are measuring the open circuit voltage of the battery!  :-DD  :palm:
Wow, just wow.
They are done. Their product is bunk right there, they have admitted it, no doubt about it.
If I made that newbie error I'd have to quit the industry in shame, yet they have based an entire company and product around a fundamentally wrong measurement.

All anyone has to do it look at the curves
(http://www.eevblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/CoppertopAA-DischargeCapacityGraph-Line.png)

For there example of 1.1V product voltage dropout under load, there is only about 12% of energy wasted in the battery for a 100mA constant current load.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 01, 2015, 11:06:18 am
For there example of 1.1V product voltage dropout under load, there is only about 12% of energy wasted in the battery for a 100mA constant current load.
Yup, open circuit voltage could be anything. Since their device can't be 100% efficient and they can't hope to get all of those remaining 12% there is no way to make this work in any meaningful way. It probably will reduce battery-life in most cases, if it's not a complete scam. :palm:

But I'm looking forward to be amazed! :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on July 01, 2015, 11:11:08 am
Just by their adverts they are trying too hard and it's gimmicky.

Advertisement style usually reflects if the product will stand by its own or not.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 01, 2015, 12:52:46 pm
But I'm looking forward to be amazed! :popcorn:

Yep, me too, always happy to admit I'm wrong, just show me the evidence.
Of course they will be able to find some products that are poorly designed with a high cutoff that might be wasting half the battery capacity, maybe even as much as 80% as they claim. But the demonstrably true fact that vast majority of products have cutout voltages of 1.1V or less means their device will get nowhere near their claims.
I'm completely baffled as to how they think they can hide or explain away this?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 02, 2015, 02:21:42 am
I'm completely baffled as to how they think they can hide or explain away this?
Maybe it's to late to back down now, having invested so much into marketing already. I'm a bit cynical now perhaps but I think they are just stalling, maybe they will do some more waffling after a while. To someone who doesn't know electronics it will be their word against your, and some people believe what they want to believe.

---
I don't know what's wrong with people but there is some interesting psychology going on in when it comes to swindlers.

There was this big scam here in Sweden a few years ago. An Italian guy called Andrea Rossi managed to bamboozle two tenured physics professors and a journalist at the largest technology newspaper here in Sweden into believing he had invented a cold-fusion device (e-cat) that could solve all the worlds energy problems.  ::)

No-one was allowed to test it at first, and then finally only with the guys own test equipment. Didn't matter that other physicists pointed out that if it worked the way they suggested, everyone monitoring the test would die from radiation poisoning the day after... :-DD

After more than a year another journalist finally decided to do some real work and quickly discovered the guy was a well known criminal in Italy and had done a similar scam in the 80:s when he claimed he could convert toxic waste into oil. He made a ton of money by taking care of other companies waste products. In the end it turned out he had just been dumping it. :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on July 02, 2015, 08:40:36 pm
...
They actually did admit that they are measuring the open circuit voltage of the battery!  :-DD  :palm:
Wow, just wow.

Yes but PhD's, and Patents...
:-)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 02, 2015, 09:08:28 pm
I'm thinking the plan is to keep piling the bull high until somebody like a director at Walmart signs up for ten million of them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on July 03, 2015, 12:51:19 am
I'm thinking the plan is to keep piling the bull high until somebody like a director at Walmart signs up for ten million of them.

Unfortunately for them, my local Google shows a page full of debunk....
There must be a name changing coming...

Quote from: cyborgar on hackaday: link=http://hackaday.com/2015/06/06/crowdfunding-follies-debunking-the-batteriser/
June 6, 2015 at 7:18 pm

Also another thing not noted here is that overdischarging batteries can cause them to leak because they corrode beyond their rated limits. Money saving and environmental friendliness ends when your device ends up ruined by leaked battery juice.

Anybody knows more about this?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 03, 2015, 04:17:31 pm
Anybody knows more about this?
I've hear that before but don't really know much more. Wikipedia  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_battery#Leaks)had this bit of information though:
Quote
The reason for leaks is that as batteries discharge — either through usage or gradual self-discharge — the chemistry of the cells changes and some hydrogen gas is generated. This out-gassing increases pressure in the battery. Eventually, the excess pressure either ruptures the insulating seals at the end of the battery, or the outer metal canister, or both.
If the batterizer is a small but otherwise ordinary boost converter it shouldn't be more of a problem than other devices with boost converters though.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 03, 2015, 04:26:00 pm
Quote from: cyborgar
Also another thing not noted here is that overdischarging batteries can cause them to leak because they corrode beyond their rated limits. Money saving and environmental friendliness ends when your device ends up ruined by leaked battery juice.
Anybody knows more about this?
You never know, the Batterizer might down at 1.05V or something like that...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: moemoe on July 09, 2015, 05:31:45 pm
There are a few issues you didn't mention.

As you have described, most devices will work down to 1.0-1.1v/cell. 

I just found out that my Sony universal remote control still works at 1.2V, but with miserable range. That's one point you didn't cover in your video, you only checked if there is still a signal, not but it's strength.

Normally, I can point the rc everywhere in the room and the devices still recieves the signal without any problems, at this voltage I had to point it directly onto the device I wanted to control.

But, as the Eneloops were in there fore probably more than two years, I doubt that the Batteriser would give any improvement, as the quiescent current would probably drain the battery much earlier. And, putting them in a charger every 2 years is not a big deal at all.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 07:27:14 pm
But, as the Eneloops were in there fore probably more than two years, I doubt that the Batteriser would give any improvement, as the quiescent current would probably drain the battery much earlier.
Yep.

And, putting them in a charger every 2 years is not a big deal at all.
Well there's your problem!

Rechargeable batteries have a much higher self-discharge rate then ordinary alkalines. Using rechargeable batteries in remote control units isn't usually cost-effective (unless you're getting them for free or something...)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rs20 on July 09, 2015, 08:10:24 pm
Rechargeable batteries have a much higher self-discharge rate then ordinary alkalines. Using rechargeable batteries in remote control units isn't usually cost-effective (unless you're getting them for free or something...)
But the cost of recharging them is practically zero????
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 08:33:11 pm
Rechargeable batteries have a much higher self-discharge rate then ordinary alkalines. Using rechargeable batteries in remote control units isn't usually cost-effective (unless you're getting them for free or something...)
But the cost of recharging them is practically zero????
But that's only one of the costs of using them

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on July 09, 2015, 08:43:15 pm
And, putting them in a charger every 2 years is not a big deal at all.
Well there's your problem!

Rechargeable batteries have a much higher self-discharge rate then ordinary alkalines. Using rechargeable batteries in remote control units isn't usually cost-effective (unless you're getting them for free or something...)

The self discharge rate of "low self discharge" NiMH is not much worse than alkaline, eneloop can maintain a charge for 5 years.
How cost effective NiMH is can be discussed, one leaking alkaline and the NiMH might have been much cheaper.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rs20 on July 09, 2015, 10:12:41 pm
But that's only one of the costs of using them
Yeah, thanks for listing the others. Stop being so difficult, troll.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 10:42:25 pm
But that's only one of the costs of using them
Yeah, thanks for listing the others. Stop being so difficult, troll.
Ummmm... how hard can it be to think of 'costs' when you're buying things? (Hint: The clue is in the verb).

Duracell/Energizer AA - easily under $1  (under 50 cents if you buy boxes of them)
Duracell/Eneloop rechargeable AA - $3 each
Decent battery charger: $10-$20 ??

So they cost 4-5 times less, they last twice as long in 'standby' devices, eg. remote controls, and you don't have any start-up costs (charger).

So how much is a free recharge really worth?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rs20 on July 09, 2015, 11:00:08 pm
The savings are ostensibly/arguably environmental, and definitely convenience. I haven't had to buy a single battery for years, because I effectively have an infinite supply in my house, and I'm never eeking the last bit of charge out of a slightly dodgy remote. Especially true of my camera flash (granted, not the context that we're talking about but it illustrates my point well) -- I just charge my 4 eneloops before every trip. The fact that non-rechargeable would last twice as long is irrelevant because my rechargeables never run out. That ongoing convenience is easily worth the negligible initial outlay of $50 or so.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 11:12:41 pm
Especially true of my camera flash (granted, not the context that we're talking about but it illustrates my point well) -- I just charge my 4 eneloops before every trip.
No, it completely fails to illustrate the point.

Nobody's arguing that frequent-use items that use a lot of current are better off with rechargeable batteries. The point is that you'll be dead and buried long before 'practically zero' charging costs have recovered the cost of putting rechargeable batteries in something like a remote control.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 11:13:59 pm
How cost effective NiMH is can be discussed, one leaking alkaline and the NiMH might have been much cheaper.

http://www.duracell.com/en-us/guarantee (http://www.duracell.com/en-us/guarantee)

http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/no-leaks-guarantee (http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/no-leaks-guarantee)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 10, 2015, 12:06:49 am
So wasn't the Batteriser Indiegogo going to be end of June?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bob F. on July 10, 2015, 12:13:21 am
Site now says: Pre-Sale Coming Soon.  Batterisers are not yet available for purchase at this time. Sign up below to be invited to our early pre-sale event.


I wonder what made them change their mind...   8)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 10, 2015, 12:36:49 am
Site now says:

First line of site now says: "Most new batteries contain 1.5V of energy when first bought."


(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/556f852de4b02d3071c592f8/t/557c9f1ae4b097936a85500a/1434230554661/Frankie_Roohparvar.jpg?format=300w)
(The inventor)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 10, 2015, 12:41:29 am
They've got some new pics of it:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on July 10, 2015, 12:48:24 am
How cost effective NiMH is can be discussed, one leaking alkaline and the NiMH might have been much cheaper.

http://www.duracell.com/en-us/guarantee (http://www.duracell.com/en-us/guarantee)

http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/no-leaks-guarantee (http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/no-leaks-guarantee)


That guarantee does not prevent the batteries from leaking:

(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/cpf2/DSC_8572.jpg) (http://lygte-info.dk/pic/cpf2/DSC_8573.jpg)

You might sometimes, with some work, recover some of the cost from the battery manufacturer (If you use the right brand of batteries).
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 10, 2015, 01:10:13 am
http://www.duracell.com/en-us/guarantee (http://www.duracell.com/en-us/guarantee)

http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/no-leaks-guarantee (http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/no-leaks-guarantee)

That guarantee does not prevent the batteries from leaking:

(picture of leaking batteries with very clear "made in China" markings removed)

You might sometimes, with some work, recover some of the cost from the battery manufacturer

Some?

"Duracell guarantees its batteries against defects in materials and workmanship. Should any device be damaged due to a battery defect, we will repair or replace it at our option."

"Energizer will repair or replace, at our option, any device damaged by leakage from Energizer® MAX® AA/AAA Alkaline batteries"

(If you use the right brand of batteries).
You mean the brands I've been mentioning in this thread?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on July 10, 2015, 02:00:21 am
The fact that non-rechargeable would last twice as long is irrelevant because my rechargeables never run out.

Where do you get NiMH cells with infinite life?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on July 10, 2015, 02:11:56 am
(picture of leaking batteries with very clear "made in China" markings removed)

Duracell do also make batteries in China, but I am not aware I have removed any marking.

Some?

"Duracell guarantees its batteries against defects in materials and workmanship. Should any device be damaged due to a battery defect, we will repair or replace it at our option."

"Energizer will repair or replace, at our option, any device damaged by leakage from Energizer® MAX® AA/AAA Alkaline batteries"

You mean the brands I've been mentioning in this thread?

Yes, they do have that guarantee in some countries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: moemoe on July 10, 2015, 05:47:59 pm
Ummmm... how hard can it be to think of 'costs' when you're buying things? (Hint: The clue is in the verb).

Duracell/Energizer AA - easily under $1  (under 50 cents if you buy boxes of them)
Duracell/Eneloop rechargeable AA - $3 each
Decent battery charger: $10-$20 ??

So they cost 4-5 times less, they last twice as long in 'standby' devices, eg. remote controls, and you don't have any start-up costs (charger).

So how much is a free recharge really worth?

I payed 2€ per Eneloop AA,
and 0,34€ per Duracell AA,
the charger was already available (and that's why I don't calculate these costs, the question should be "what do _I_ have to pay extra in _my_ setup")

So yes, you could argue that (charging no cost for the charger) I could use 6 duracells instead of one Eneloop.

But that would also imply 6 times more waste for the same level of comfort, and in this case, I prefer to pay some € more for the environment's sake.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 10, 2015, 07:56:51 pm
But that would also imply 6 times more waste for the same level of comfort, and in this case, I prefer to pay some € more for the environment's sake.
Sure, but the argument was:

Quote
Quote from: fungus
Using rechargeable batteries in remote control units isn't usually cost-effective
"the cost of recharging them is practically zero"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: moemoe on July 10, 2015, 11:41:57 pm
But that would also imply 6 times more waste for the same level of comfort, and in this case, I prefer to pay some € more for the environment's sake.
Sure, but the argument was:

Quote
Quote from: fungus
Using rechargeable batteries in remote control units isn't usually cost-effective
"the cost of recharging them is practically zero"

Which is still true, if you already have a charger.

Or, if you want, I think I payed about 30€ for mine, and use it for at least 5 years now. With about 50 charges per year, that's 12ct per charging, reducing with every charge. I'd call that "practically zero."
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 11, 2015, 12:03:00 am
Quote
"the cost of recharging them is practically zero"
Which is still true, if you already have a charger.
And if you already have the batteries.

If you don't, then.... it isn't true! Tada!

Math. It works, bitches!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: moemoe on July 11, 2015, 06:23:08 am
And if you already have the batteries.

If you don't, then.... it isn't true! Tada!

Math. It works, bitches!

It's still true, only the break even point moves slower. I'm sure you can do the calculations with 2€+n*0,14€ against n*0,34€, where n is the number of charges, for yourself.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on July 11, 2015, 07:26:46 am
Say you buy 10 Eneloop that you recharge.

Then it probably should be 30€+10*2€+n*0,14€ vs n*0,34€.

So: 50 + n*0.14 = n*0.34 => 50 = n*(0.34-0.14) => n = 50/0.2 or 250 charge cycles to break even.

Less if you purchase less Eneloops.

Even without taking into account the cost of recycling those 250 batteries which should be included in the price of the batteries to begin with.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 11, 2015, 07:20:35 pm
It's still true, only the break even point moves slower. I'm sure you can do the calculations with 2€+n*0,14€ against n*0,34€, where n is the number of charges, for yourself.
Sure, let's see...

I calculate that I'll be dead long before before I break even with a remote control.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: moemoe on July 11, 2015, 11:34:26 pm
And you buy a new charger for every rechargable batteryi your calculation. You're always seeing that use case isolated.

2€+n*0,14€ against n*0,34€ => n=10 in my scenario with all the other batteries also using the charger (as I said, about 50 charges per year), summing up to 34ct per charge including the charger.

That's still 20 years for the RC batteries, but I hope you won't die that quick.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 12, 2015, 09:25:15 pm
That's still 20 years for the RC batteries, but I hope you won't die that quick.
My RC batteries last a lot longer than 2 years.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 04:58:17 pm
Words fail me at the pointlessness of this video  :palm:
This is supposed to be their big comeback to me using a power supply to test battery cutoff in a product!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv5eHRnjGC8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv5eHRnjGC8)

OMG, how cluelesss are these people?  :palm:  |O
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 05:06:32 pm
and then they followed up with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBH0PaqMBk8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBH0PaqMBk8)


 :-DD  |O  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on July 25, 2015, 05:17:37 pm
They should have added their product to those empty batteries that run instantaneously below the 0.9V when activated in the test and then....... oh no the monkey still does not operate even with their magic smoke product FAIL  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on July 25, 2015, 05:55:15 pm
Quote
OMG, how cluelesss are these people?
I don't think they are clueless.
I think they do this on purpose to rescue their product.
If they are good enough to build a boost circuit that small, thei knew what they are doing.
They only want to sell their product at high price to people which are not that good at electronic.

This is the new way of selling "snakeoil".

By the way.
Does the scinentist guy knew what they are doing with his statement about batteries?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 05:58:08 pm
Quote
OMG, how cluelesss are these people?
I don't think they are clueless.
I think they do this on purpose to rescue their product.
If they are good enough to build a boost circuit that small, thei knew what they are doing.
They only want to sell their product at high price to people which are not that good at electronic.

Yep, agreed, it must be that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on July 25, 2015, 06:03:45 pm
By the way.
Does the scinentist guy knew what they are doing with his statement about batteries?
Probably yes:
The whole bench looks like a movie setup: The scope is running with the probe connected to the probe adjust test signal output. And the remaining space is filled with random tools and other stuff.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on July 25, 2015, 06:07:28 pm
I don't think they are clueless.
Well, you never know. Look at the equipment. Never underestimate human stupidity.
Is this guy in the ugly shirt supposed to be one of the developers? If so, I could really imagine that he didn't quite get the problem with this open load voltage comparison.
Besides, the statement from the 1st vid is like "batteries are different - just believe us". The one one from the 2nd video is like "batteries are different - and there are very complex technical reasons for this (that we just googled without understanding the real issue)".
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: baoshi on July 25, 2015, 06:12:37 pm
In a typical convince-confuse-con theorem, now they reach confuse stage
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BravoV on July 25, 2015, 06:24:08 pm
Adding the "risk" when using alkaline battery which I think worth considering, especially in an expensive T&M instruments.

This photo was taken at Oct 2013, watch the expiry date at the cell. They were the standard batteries came with Fluke 287, and was installed in the meter (Fluke distributor's showroom) when I bought it for cheaper price as its a show unit. The meter was showing full bar at the battery indicator when they're installed, and also I did a brief "loaded" test and they were still fresh.  >:(

Just a reminder as well, remember to check your T&M instruments periodically if you are still using alkaline cells. Currently I'm a fanatic Eneloop user, and there are no alkaline cells allowed in my house, period.  >:(

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/how-much-are-you-willing-to-pay-for-a-fluke-287/?action=dlattach;attach=64864;image)


The damages at the meter's battery contacts  :palm:

I'm aware of Energizer warranty claim, its just not worth it for such expensive instruments, besides in my place, the damage claim could ended up for months in their bureaucracy , and there is no guarantee that they will replace or fix the device damaged by their battery.  :palm:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/how-much-are-you-willing-to-pay-for-a-fluke-287/?action=dlattach;attach=64866;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on July 25, 2015, 06:41:55 pm

I dont quite understand who the target audience is in regards to the toy monkey clips.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 06:55:38 pm
I dont quite understand who the target audience is in regards to the toy monkey clips.

It's something they can post on their Facebook page to all the plebs to make them sound like they know what they are talking about when somebody links in my video.
Obviously it's a direct response to my video, and of course they can't answer any of the criticism, so they have to invoke this deception (which is technically correct without any context) that batteries and and power supplies aren't the same thing, therefore my entire video, blog post, and all my evidence is wrong  ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2015, 07:38:16 pm
OMG, how cluelesss are these people?  :palm:  |O
I love their expert's "workbench". Totally clean and littered with tools what are obviously fresh out of the packet and unused.

And that soldering iron?  Obviously for EE work...  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2015, 07:49:53 pm
and then they followed up with this:

 :-DD  |O  :palm:
I wanna know why they didn't put the batterizer in the monkey and show us how well it works!

Must have just been an innocent omission on their part, right?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 07:55:13 pm
I love their experts's "workbench". Totally clean and littered with tools what are obviously fresh out of the packet and unused.

Anyone who can identify the "professor" in the video wins the Internet!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on July 25, 2015, 07:59:27 pm
OMG, how cluelesss are these people?  :palm:  |O
I love their experts's "workbench". Totally clean and littered with tools what are obviously fresh out of the packet and unused.
Look at that scope, it's hooked up to the test signal. That's probably the worst probe compensation I've ever seen.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on July 25, 2015, 08:03:31 pm
Look at that scope, it's hooked up to the test signal. That's probably the worst probe compensation I've ever seen.
It is the obvious tell sell expert camouflage surrounding like the doctors always dress in white and a skeleton against the wall, what doctor still has a skeleton in his office besides an ex patient that he forgot about in the waiting room.
I had expected the real nerd type with pencils in his shirt to explain this, bit of a bummer there was no actor that could do this besides this guy who really is a good casting for this monkey part  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: electr_peter on July 25, 2015, 08:18:05 pm
Completely fake instrument setup (too much clutter, unused new tools in random places, all instruments are faced to camera (why?)) - all points to deliberate fake video scene setup.

They made a strange video showing that battery is not equal to power supply (keeping in mind that is obvious to any engineer and is irrelevant to the point ...). Why? To confuse not technically literate people and indirectly say that all criticism is false. Demagogy at it's best.

Dave, do not waste time debunking this BS. Just link in few links/videos from publicly available videos from test equipment manufacturers advertising their power supplies/battery emulator solutions. For example, http://www.keithley.com/products/dcac/highspeedpower/battery (http://www.keithley.com/products/dcac/highspeedpower/battery) or http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1000000819%3Aepsg%3Apro-pn-66319D/dual-mobile-comm-dc-source-battery-emulation-dvm?cc=LT&lc=eng (http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1000000819%3Aepsg%3Apro-pn-66319D/dual-mobile-comm-dc-source-battery-emulation-dvm?cc=LT&lc=eng)

I think they know exactly what they are doing (they know that Dave's arguments are right, that their claims are BS, that they are deliberately providing borderline wrong or confusing information). I would clasify it as a deliberate scam. Let's wait and see what happens :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2015, 08:28:25 pm
Dave, do not waste time debunking this BS.
No, please do!   :popcorn:

(You'll need one of those monkeys, maybe somebody can find where they sell them and post a link.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on July 25, 2015, 08:34:03 pm
Dave, do not waste time debunking this BS.
No, please do!   :popcorn:

(You'll need one of those monkeys, maybe somebody can find where they sell them and post a link.)
"Magic Monkey Plays Cymbals Retro Battery Operated"
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Magic-Monkey-Plays-Cymbals-Retro-Battery-Operated-/221824158248?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33a5c00a28 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Magic-Monkey-Plays-Cymbals-Retro-Battery-Operated-/221824158248?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33a5c00a28)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mackrc1 on July 25, 2015, 08:40:10 pm
I love how their oscilloscope is just sitting in the background with a test pattern. "Look at us we have fancy equipment, therefor we are not pulling shite out our arse"  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 25, 2015, 08:43:23 pm

I'm convinced they know what they are doing too, it's textbook scamming. They need to respond to criticism somehow and if facts don't work, nonsense is almost as effective. Most people can't follow the technical arguments anyway so it comes down to which authority you trust most and people usually believe in the guy with a suit... This video was so bad I hope most people will see through it though.

They should have added their product to those empty batteries that run instantaneously below the 0.9V when activated in the test and then....... oh no the monkey still does not operate even with their magic smoke product FAIL  :palm:
+1
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 08:46:41 pm
Dave, do not waste time debunking this BS.

I don't know whether to throughly destory this video, or just not give them the air time any more?  :-//
Their Indiegogo Starts in two days time, and I suspect will succeed regardless of what I or anyone else who is talking out about this says.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on July 25, 2015, 08:52:01 pm
I don't know whether to throughly destory this video

You know you want to...  >:D
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2015, 09:02:19 pm
I don't know whether to throughly destory this video

You know you want to...  >:D
All you need is two flat batteries, a voltage booster module, and one of those monkeys.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 09:03:41 pm
They need to respond to criticism somehow and if facts don't work, nonsense is almost as effective. Most people can't follow the technical arguments anyway so it comes down to which authority you trust most and people usually believe in the guy with a suit...

They showed their hand in a classic case of this by looking at my Linkedin profile & comparing their PhD's, which because they are more qualified, of course makes them right ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on July 25, 2015, 09:06:24 pm
We could start a whole new society with Dave as president.

The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Batteries....RSPCB or RSPCBOM for battery operated monkeys, I felt that poor toys pain.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 25, 2015, 09:23:31 pm
They showed their hand in a classic case of this by looking at my Linkedin profile & comparing their PhD's, which because they are more qualified, of course makes them right ::)
They deserve a PhD in con-artistry at least!

They must know what they are doing, they already have prototype devices and it would be obvious when they test them that they don't work. And if they actually have real PhD's in electrical engineering and have been able to develop these tiny converters there is no way they don't understand Ohm's law at least.

At the same time they have spent all this money on a slick website, all those actors, video-production, marketing... I don't know what it cost to get your product pushed in all those magazines as if they were legit, but it can't be cheap.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on July 25, 2015, 09:33:19 pm
Isn't knowingly false promiseing and selling a potentiell dangerous product (lets be a little bit keen) a little bit illegal?

What does Duracel say that teire design get used in a fraud?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 09:38:25 pm
They must know what they are doing, they already have prototype devices and it would be obvious when they test them that they don't work. And if they actually have real PhD's in electrical engineering and have been able to develop these tiny converters there is no way they don't understand Ohm's law at least.

Yes, they must know this.
One has a Ph.D in EE from Iowa State University, and Vice President and General Manager at Broadcom, and a professor at California State University.
The other has an MS EE from Santa Clara University
Yet they can't even get the basics right?
You never, ever, measure the unloaded battery voltage and use that to claim anything, let alone product cutoff voltages, remaining energy capacity, and to base patents and an entire business around it. Yet they have admitted this is the entire basis of their product. It's a crazily embarrassing mistake if genuine.
If I claimed that I'd be laughed out of the industry.
If you did that at design job you'd be sacked for being clueless.
If you said that at a design job interview, you'd be shown the door.
It's stuff even hobbyists know - measuring the battery voltage under load is the only thing that counts!

Quote
At the same time they have spent all this money on a slick website, all those actors

The other thing is that flat out claim that those promo videos are submitted entries from "fans".

Also, a month ago they claimed they release data proving that it works as well as claimed, and that it was their "top priority" to do so.
Now the Indiegogo is 2 days away and still nothing. Not a single bit of data after working on this for 5 years!  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on July 25, 2015, 09:50:33 pm
C'mon Dave. Just give us the facts. Why did the monkey work down to a much lower voltage with a power supply than it did with batteries? Is their claim wrong? Does the internal resistance of the battery have no bearing?

The internal resistance in the battery is the problem. You may measure a high voltage on the battery when unloaded, but put a load on and it drops to nearly nothing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on July 25, 2015, 09:51:35 pm
Please do more videos destroying this bullshit! This tech scamming won't go away if people ignore it. T   
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on July 25, 2015, 09:55:39 pm
Observe how they never measured the voltage across the batteries in the toy when it was on...

I don't know whether to throughly destory this video

You know you want to...  >:D
Do it Dave! :popcorn:


I don't have a YouTube account but please be sure to downvote and link to Dave's debunking video on their other videos too, like these ones (not going to link them directly because I don't want to embed them here):

Code: [Select]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4zjWynjEo
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-5RLfvy8XI[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkfdm8soHyU[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP2kuEzySP8[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4_XvJaQO34[/url]

Look at the comments on that last one... clearly not right.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 25, 2015, 10:04:47 pm
Isn't knowingly false promiseing and selling a potentiell dangerous product (lets be a little bit keen) a little bit illegal?

What does Duracel say that teire design get used in a fraud?
The fact that it is crowd sourced probably complicates the legal situation... might even be legal because no-one thought about sites like indiegogo when the law was written. Considering all the effort they have put into this wouldn't surprise me if they have gotten thumbs up from their lawyers. They also use lots of weasel words, avoiding statements that are provably false and so on... like this last video, it's obviously true that batteries and power supplies are different but that's a straw man, no-one claimed they weren't.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 10:05:58 pm
C'mon Dave. Just give us the facts. Why did the monkey work down to a much lower voltage with a power supply than it did with batteries? Is their claim wrong? Does the internal resistance of the battery have no bearing?

That's a rhetorical question right?

It's the ESR of the battery, and they are incorrectly measuring the open circuit voltage. Of course that's the whole point of their argument, which is of course completely and utterly the wrong way to measure a product cutout voltage.

Quote
Getting a mob of your fans stirred up is not the way to respond. Play a straight bat.

How was my video or blog post not playing with a straight bat?
If you are referring to comments here, then this is just forum chat.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2015, 10:28:16 pm
C'mon Dave. Just give us the facts. Why did the monkey work down to a much lower voltage with a power supply than it did with batteries? Is their claim wrong? Does the internal resistance of the battery have no bearing?
You basically just said you don't understand Ohm's law...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 11:10:47 pm
Comments on their videos stink to high heaven. Take this new one testing against a flashlight (fair enough test, that's why most LED flashlights have boost converters built in):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-5RLfvy8XI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-5RLfvy8XI)

Check out this commenter called SagorRoy:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162604;image)

Joined start of July, clearly a recently generated sock puppet account. Check out all the other random comments made by this account.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162606;image)

Pathetic, really pathetic  :--

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162608;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 11:35:16 pm
No. You basically didn't comprehend that I think the best strategy Dave can use to counter the claims these people make is to play a straight bat and fend off the claims they make without additional comment.

Once again, I think I played with a fairly straight bat in my video and my follow-up blog post. I in fact cut them plenty of slack, and didn't call anyone who believed it stupid or any such thing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2015, 11:54:37 pm
I'm thinking of applying to be an authorized Batterizer distributor.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on July 26, 2015, 03:09:08 am

I dont quite understand who the target audience is in regards to the toy monkey clips.

You can be sure they understand that aspect very well.

The video is very well made, I mean, expensive camera, professional setup, they bought tools with the right color, actors etc.
Their whole campaign already cost more than a new car, and I assure you these guys will make a lot of money with it.

I dislike this type of scam very much, but if I look at the world around me, there's worse everywhere.
Health products, religion, greenwashery,...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on July 26, 2015, 03:21:21 am
I don't know whether to throughly destory this video, or just not give them the air time any more?  :-//
I wouldn't put new energy in their new video, all the people with some ohm's law knowledge already know what's going on.
To the others, you (we) sound like a religious demagoge or a consperacist, someone with a hidden agenda.

If I would react, I would resolutely stick to my own initial claims.
-they did not give a list of products that stop working below 1.2V
-they gave no list with devices that already have a boost converter.
-they mix all kind of tech/science units, go to basic school
-they don't understand percentages.
-there is no linearity between rest voltage and rest energy.
-the product has max xx% rendability, what will result in a lower autonomy
-they refuse to give numbers when speaking about longer, more, better,...
-...

None of this is corrected in their video2
Don't get guided by them or their agenda.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on July 26, 2015, 05:37:16 am
And now every critism below the video got deleted.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on July 26, 2015, 06:06:32 am
...
Check out this commenter called SagorRoy:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162604;image)

Joined start of July, clearly a recently generated sock puppet account. Check out all the other random comments made by this account.

...

He offers this service on twitter (https://twitter.com/RoySagor/status/611095478059597824):

Quote
i will Manually submit your website or blog or video links to 30+  Social Bookmarking Site. Services
His comments on the video are in line with that service.

https://www.fiverr.com/smartit69/create-30-high-quality-social-bookmarking-backlinks-from-pr10-to-6 (https://www.fiverr.com/smartit69/create-30-high-quality-social-bookmarking-backlinks-from-pr10-to-6)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: electr_peter on July 26, 2015, 07:12:32 am
Dave, do not waste time debunking this BS.
I don't know whether to throughly destory this video, or just not give them the air time any more?  :-//
Their Indiegogo Starts in two days time, and I suspect will succeed regardless of what I or anyone else who is talking out about this says.
Do whatever you feel like is best.
My point of view is that you cannot really do anything at this point about Bateriser because their are doing PR campaign with clear demagogy tactics and they do not care about technical arguments. They are "right" no matter what (until company folds). Thus, I would consider further debunking ineffective and unnecessary.

Not that there is some substance left to debunk - Bateriser did not ship anything yet (which they most likely would do) and did not provide any real data (which they won't do with 99.99% certainty). Expect some more vague misleading terms and claims, but not anything testable.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dmmt40 on July 26, 2015, 08:03:36 am
What's happening here is very simple, people behind this are just greedy.

In all fairness they do have a product that a lot of people would buy, but instead of being upfront with the benefits and limitations they decide to ignore facts, generalise scenarios, etc, the bubble is just getting bigger and bigger.

But this is what happens when lots of people get involved developing (and marketing) products like this, since no single person is directly responsible they'll just carry on until it bursts.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 26, 2015, 08:52:27 am
He offers this service on twitter (https://twitter.com/RoySagor/status/611095478059597824):
Quote
i will Manually submit your website or blog or video links to 30+  Social Bookmarking Site. Services
His comments on the video are in line with that service.
https://www.fiverr.com/smartit69/create-30-high-quality-social-bookmarking-backlinks-from-pr10-to-6 (https://www.fiverr.com/smartit69/create-30-high-quality-social-bookmarking-backlinks-from-pr10-to-6)

Nice find.
This Batteriser mob are simply pathetic.
Wouldn't surprise me if they bought the video views as well.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mackrc1 on July 26, 2015, 09:25:03 am
Comments on their videos stink to high heaven. Take this new one testing against a flashlight (fair enough test, that's why most LED flashlights have boost converters built in):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-5RLfvy8XI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-5RLfvy8XI)

Check out this commenter called SagorRoy:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162604;image)

Joined start of July, clearly a recently generated sock puppet account. Check out all the other random comments made by this account.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162606;image)

Pathetic, really pathetic  :--

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162608;image)

Talk shite, seriously?!
I did try to stay off the hate waggon but look at it! It's a piece of folded copper!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on July 26, 2015, 01:32:37 pm
Dave, do not waste time debunking this BS.

I don't know whether to throughly destory this video, or just not give them the air time any more?
Give it up. You're no match for a guy who stuffs probes up a toy monkey's butt.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: free_electron on July 26, 2015, 02:36:17 pm
PHD . Person Hopelesly Deficient...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on July 26, 2015, 02:44:33 pm
PHD . Person Hopelesly Deficient...
:--
Hey, we have honest PhDs amongst us. Not me btw.

Edit: to clarify, not me on the PhD part, not on the honest part ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on July 27, 2015, 02:32:35 am
When it will be made available?

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on July 27, 2015, 07:27:49 am
I believe a pre-sale starts July 27.

edit: actually that's today!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 05:46:00 pm
OMG!
Batteriser have finally admitted they were wrong and used the wrong voltage measurement to characterise their product!
They have changed the wording on their website completely to finally mention battery voltage under load, with a caveat that that related to 1.3V open circuit  :-DD
But they still cling to their stupid 80% unused energy claim, and even use it in the same headline implying that an under load dropout voltage of now 1.1V still translates to 80% unused energy.
Oops, how embarrassing!  :-DD  :palm:
The silly thing is their claim is now even more demonstrably untrue!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162891;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on July 27, 2015, 06:55:39 pm
The old statement.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/?action=dlattach;attach=162907;image)

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 07:42:49 pm
The old statement.

Luckily we captured all their old claims for posterity.
No way they would have changed their tune without the community showing they were completely wrong.
Only problem is they are still completely wrong about lost capacity now admitting a typical 1.1V cutout voltage. For anyone who cares to look at a battery datasheet, there is now zero chance of this product being anything close to the x8 / 800% / 80% lost claim, no if's, no buts, no secret sauce.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on July 27, 2015, 08:03:10 pm

Bugger.. :palm:
I was looking forward to the 2032 version, now it seems I wont be around... :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 08:15:00 pm
They have also changed their promo video.
It used to say
"did you know all the batteries you've ever used have only used up to 20% of their battery life."
Not it's
"Did you know that a significant number of dead batteries you throw away had only used roughly 20% of their battery life"
 :-DD

So they have gone from absolute certain fact of all batteries, to a "significant number"  :palm:

But of course they had to change this to stop any potential class action law suit from any Indiegogo backers or other customers who find them useless or don't get anywhere near the claimed capacity.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on July 27, 2015, 08:22:23 pm
We must find the old video...

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 08:29:43 pm
We must find the old video...

It's embedded in my debunking video at the end.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 08:58:14 pm
For the record, screen captures of their absurd and embarrassing straw man claim about my using a PSU to determine the product cutout voltage:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162927;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162929;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 27, 2015, 09:17:16 pm
...
Check out this commenter called SagorRoy:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162604;image)

Joined start of July, clearly a recently generated sock puppet account. Check out all the other random comments made by this account.

...

He offers this service on twitter (https://twitter.com/RoySagor/status/611095478059597824):

Quote
i will Manually submit your website or blog or video links to 30+  Social Bookmarking Site. Services
His comments on the video are in line with that service.

https://www.fiverr.com/smartit69/create-30-high-quality-social-bookmarking-backlinks-from-pr10-to-6 (https://www.fiverr.com/smartit69/create-30-high-quality-social-bookmarking-backlinks-from-pr10-to-6)
:-DD :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on July 27, 2015, 09:33:17 pm
Quote
"Most new batteries contain 1.5V of energy when first bought"
Are you sure these guys have an EE degree? :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: coppice on July 27, 2015, 09:40:31 pm
I think I might have a use for these things. There are a number of devices which refuse to run from a hydride cell, because they cut out at 1.4V or so. This gadget might boost the rechargeable cell's voltage until it becomes usable. :-\ I still can't see even the slimmest of structures fitting in most battery holders, though.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 27, 2015, 09:53:23 pm
I think I might have a use for these things. There are a number of devices which refuse to run from a hydride cell, because they cut out at 1.4V or so.
Sure, there's one or two devices where this could be useful.

But ... they're only a tiny percentage of devices. Care to name yours?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on July 27, 2015, 10:03:50 pm
I’m hoping they have the courtesy to send Dave some free Batteriser samples to review, after all the help/information he’s been providing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 10:08:47 pm
Quote
"Most new batteries contain 1.5V of energy when first bought"
Are you sure these guys have an EE degree? :palm:

A PhD and Masters. And the PhD guy is/was a professor  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 10:10:11 pm
I’m hoping they have the courtesy to send Dave some free Batteriser samples to review, after all the help/information he’s been providing.

They are more than welcome to, but I suspect they'd prefer I just go away and STFU.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on July 27, 2015, 10:21:50 pm
A PhD and Masters. And the PhD guy is/was a professor  :palm:
I just did a patentsearch on the guy, he claims to have more than 500 US patents, I thought that was rediculous, but he does, 505 to be exact.
All from a nand flash company called Micron, and a lot of them almost the same (must be otherwise you can not get that many patents) and probably a lot as side kick.
I really wonder why someone like that gets involved with this kind of shady business and claims.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 10:28:01 pm
I just did a patentsearch on the guy, he claims to have more than 500 US patents, and he does, 505 to be exact.
All from a nand flash company Micron, and a lot almost the same.

That's common. One idea and patent 500 ways to implement it. Big companies like that have in-house patent departments that do just this.
I've heard it's one of the least desirable patent attoney roles, because it's more boring than watching paint dry.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 10:43:27 pm
And the Indiegogo is live:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)

Flexible Funding of course, the choice of champions  ;D

And of course they are so scared of my debunking they had to put their ridiculous straw-man video right up on the campaign page!  ::)

Only $30K. They are smart, they will easily make that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 27, 2015, 10:49:11 pm
And the Indiegogo is live:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)

They've got a 'comments' section...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on July 27, 2015, 11:05:17 pm
I’m hoping they have the courtesy to send Dave some free Batteriser samples to review, after all the help/information he’s been providing.

They are more than welcome to, but I suspect they'd prefer I just go away and STFU.

Yeah perhaps, but considering the backing and funding this product seems to have, their overstatements maybe is deliberate to test the market responses (so to speak), on the line with "any publicity" is "good publicity"... (not at all a behaviour I agree with).

It's puzzling anyway... are they really just the 'clowns' they sometime seems to be(?)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on July 27, 2015, 11:06:39 pm
mark my words, this is going to be a tell sell product, just next to the shrinkable garden hose but that one actually works  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on July 27, 2015, 11:13:51 pm
5 guys with mega qualifications, probable substantial revenue streams and lines of credit, looking for a paltry 30,000$ investment on the internet to subsidize their project. That doesn't make much sense, unless the whole thing is baloney.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 27, 2015, 11:18:28 pm
5 guys with mega qualifications, probable substantial revenue streams and lines of credit, looking for a paltry 30,000$ investment on the internet to subsidize their project. That doesn't make much sense, unless the whole thing is baloney.
Making those pretty prototypes must have cost them that much.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on July 27, 2015, 11:22:48 pm
Because of Capitals Control I can't contribute and comment...

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 11:31:23 pm
Making those pretty prototypes must have cost them that much.

They have a fair bit of funding, no doubt. That is why they can set the target low.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on July 27, 2015, 11:35:13 pm
And the Indiegogo is live:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)

They've got a 'comments' section...

It also has an "As Seen On: " section. But they forgot to mention that it's covered on the EEVblog.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 11:36:06 pm
5 guys with mega qualifications, probable substantial revenue streams and lines of credit, looking for a paltry 30,000$ investment on the internet to subsidize their project. That doesn't make much sense, unless the whole thing is baloney.

It's so they can use the Indiegogo as proof of market to major venture capitalists. Doesn't matter the amount, campaign success means campaign success.
The goal is most likely to flip the company for a profit at the first opportunity.
But I'm stunned that they have spend 5 years developing this, obviously have money behind them, a big name investor on their board already, have obviously spent tons of money on clever highly polished marketing and vidoes, and they chose Indiegogo Flexible Funding instead of Kickstarter?  :-//
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 11:39:19 pm
And the Indiegogo is live:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)
They've got a 'comments' section...

Betcha anytign they will heavily censor any criticism on there.
I have a new video coming out tomorrow that is totally related, doesn't directly address their silly Monkey video though, that is best left to another video.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on July 27, 2015, 11:41:49 pm
They are allowed from IGG to select and remove comments?

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on July 27, 2015, 11:42:10 pm
Funny, there's 2 comments made on Indiegogo now (none by me)

One is calmly asking for more technical data.

The other is worshipping the product like the new messiah.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 27, 2015, 11:42:18 pm
I wonder if the people who wrote fluff articles based on the batteriser press release are happy that their names are now being used to endorse the product?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 11:49:19 pm
I wonder if the people who wrote fluff articles based on the batteriser press release are happy that their names are now being used to endorse the product?

That's all part of the game, they don't care.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on July 28, 2015, 12:02:03 am
A Google for "batteriser" currently has this for me as the 3rd result:

http://hackaday.com/2015/06/06/crowdfunding-follies-debunking-the-batteriser/ (http://hackaday.com/2015/06/06/crowdfunding-follies-debunking-the-batteriser/)

Dave's #751 video is also on the first page.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: coppice on July 28, 2015, 12:06:09 am
I think I might have a use for these things. There are a number of devices which refuse to run from a hydride cell, because they cut out at 1.4V or so.
Sure, there's one or two devices where this could be useful.

But ... they're only a tiny percentage of devices. Care to name yours?
I generally like Olympus products, but they've produced a few things that's wouldn't run from NiMH cells. They are certainly not alone.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 28, 2015, 12:07:51 am
A Google for "batteriser" currently has this for me as the 3rd result:
http://hackaday.com/2015/06/06/crowdfunding-follies-debunking-the-batteriser/ (http://hacaday.com/2015/06/06/crowdfunding-follies-debunking-the-batteriser/)
Dave's #751 video is also on the first page.

I'm at #4 for me.
5 of the top 10 results are debunking, including the NeuroLogica blog.
 :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on July 28, 2015, 12:53:01 am
Dave, what if we used batterisers on the storage batteries of a solar road?? All our power problems would be solved!!!  :-DD

McBryce.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on July 28, 2015, 01:12:04 am
I'll say this: these Batteriser guys are true EEVBlog fans. They even read the post about the battery shorting through the sleeve - so they coated their sheet metal.

I am impressed at the price point they're able to achieve. Being an insider at Flextronics has its benefits.

These would actually have been nice 30 years ago in they pre-ubiquitous-boost-converter heydays of TTL logic. Aside from uber cheap toys, it's hard to see the point today.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on July 28, 2015, 03:02:56 am
PHD - Piled Higher and Deeper.

Funny enough, this applies to them rather well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS9olPA2BK0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS9olPA2BK0)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Zbig on July 28, 2015, 03:30:30 am
For the record, screen captures of their absurd and embarrassing straw man claim about my using a PSU to determine the product cutout voltage:

[..]

After reading this they almost made me believe they actually do not comprehend that ESR is just a vehicle used to measure and describe the depleting battery's chemistry behavior under load. The guy who wrote this seems to genuinely believe that almost all of the energy is still hidden there magically and that pesky ESR is just some kind of a trimpot in series being turned by some little mot*********g gnome hiding inside, just to rain on your parade, blocking these 80% of energy from you just because f**k you, that's why :palm: It's so convincingly audiophile-grade delusional it almost seems as if they hired some student to write it, someone who actually believed what he just wrote. Well played.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on July 28, 2015, 04:49:24 am
not sure if this been posted before:

https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html (https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html)

Quote
Discussing the EEVBlog video, he says: “I think he’s a good guy. I think he just didn’t know enough.”

Quote
Yahoo Makers was only able to try out the Batteriser briefly in our offices.

Quote
In the end, of course, neither the company’s claims nor the doubters’ blogs and YouTube videos will determine the true potential of the Batteriser.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 06:20:35 am
I am impressed at the price point they're able to achieve. Being an insider at Flextronics has its benefits.
They might actually be losing money on them if it's all part of a bigger scam.

$30,000 is a ridiculously low funding level. They already spent more then that making the pretty prototypes, making videos, etc. They're obviously doing this to attract bigger fish afterwards or something.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on July 28, 2015, 06:56:46 am
I am impressed at the price point they're able to achieve. Being an insider at Flextronics has its benefits.
They might actually be losing money on them if it's all part of a bigger scam.

$30,000 is a ridiculously low funding level. They already spent more then that making the pretty prototypes, making videos, etc. They're obviously doing this to attract bigger fish afterwards or something.

Agreed that the funding level is silly, but this is advertising. These guys have money. I'm not sure they're losing money. Flextronics is one of the worlds best CMs. I'm pretty sure these guys can handle a 10 item BOM.

Looking at the credentials, if these guys are *complete* hucksters, they definitely are a grade or three up from the norm on IndieGoGo. They just sold a networked flash drive company to WD, so there is capital somewhere. Why they chose IGG instead of a more reputable venue is a good question and a red flag. But my bet is that people actually do receive their overbilled device that helps address a deficiency in older, or poorly engineered, or just cheap products. I just don't expect to see Apple trackpad users suddenly doing handsprings over their newfound battery longevity.

And I'm certain they are trying to sell the company. It's what they do: Build. Sell. Repeat.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 07:02:17 am
And I'm certain they are trying to sell the company. It's what they do: Build. Sell. Repeat.
That could be it.

Make a "successfully funded" product (they're hardly going to fail to get $30,000 - if the public doesn't step up obligingly they can probably fill the gap themselves).

Next look for a sucker to buy the company for $10 million.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on July 28, 2015, 07:03:00 am
[Tinfoilhatmode]

Maybe it's all just one big social experiment funded by the government to measure our stupidity and see how far they've dumbed us down so far?

[/Tinfoilhatmode]

MCBryce.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 28, 2015, 07:55:18 am
https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma (https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma)

What Batteriser think of me: “I think he’s a good guy. I think he just didn’t know enough.”
That's kindly  :-DD
Guess I'll have to respond in kind showing how little he knows.  ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on July 28, 2015, 08:14:06 am
https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma (https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma)

What Batteriser think of me: “I think he’s a good guy. I think he just didn’t know enough.”
That's kindly  :-DD
Guess I'll have to respond in kind showing how little he knows.  ;D

Now, you just remember young laddie!  No applying a voltage to the battery terminals to determine when the battery indicates "low" unless you include a series resistor which will definitively show um... er... uhh... well...it's darn important.  Just do that and trust me that the results will be very different.  Somehow.  Some way.  We hope that the result changes. 

Just do what we say, or we probe the monkey again.  :o
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on July 28, 2015, 08:30:40 am
https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma (https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma)

What Batteriser think of me: “I think he’s a good guy. I think he just didn’t know enough.”
That's kindly  :-DD
Guess I'll have to respond in kind showing how little he knows.  ;D

Do I smell another excuse to buy more test gear? There are several Keithley 2306 battery simulators on eBay...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 28, 2015, 10:04:54 am
OMG!
Batteriser have finally admitted they were wrong and used the wrong voltage measurement to characterise their product!
They have changed the wording on their website completely to finally mention battery voltage under load, with a caveat that that related to 1.3V open circuit  :-DD
But they still cling to their stupid 80% unused energy claim, and even use it in the same headline implying that an under load dropout voltage of now 1.1V still translates to 80% unused energy.
Oops, how embarrassing!  :-DD  :palm:
The silly thing is their claim is now even more demonstrably untrue!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162891;image)

And they have changed their claim AGAIN!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=163005;image)

They ave now removed the admission of 1.1V under load!
No wonder because they know their x8 claim cannot hold water now with admitting that 1.1V is the typical under load dropout voltage. They truly have no legs left the stand on.
My new video will prove this (right at the end), but the new video wasn't really intended as a Batteriser video.
They have to be closely monitoring this forum as they seem to be making changes based on the responses here to hide their tracks.
They even included a link to a used battery report in the campaign that was posted here, and they are using it as evidence. Of course they still don't have their own evidence to show after 5 years or work on this, not a single thing. It's one of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen!  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 28, 2015, 10:19:06 am
They have even changed their logo!
http://batteriser.com/press/ (http://batteriser.com/press/)

Used to be:
(http://www.eevblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/batteriser_final_logo_tag.png)

Now it's:
(http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/batteriser_final_logo_tag1.jpg)

And they have the hide to say I don't know what I'm talking about! They have changed almost everythign based on my debunking this thing :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: nitro2k01 on July 28, 2015, 10:54:41 am
Quote
Roohparvar says the critics ignore the differences in internal resistance between a battery and the equipment used to test voltages.
So he admits that he knows what ESR is. Now, if he would just explain how a voltage boost circuit would make the battery deliver enough current when the ESR creeps up in the single digit ohms.  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on July 28, 2015, 11:26:09 am
By the way, Batteriser Batteroo, since you're clearly keeping up with this, I wondered if you have asked Apple how they feel about your website insinuating that their battery management is poor:

(http://www.batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/how_it_works01.jpg)
(http://www.batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/how_it_works03.jpg)
(http://www.batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/how_it_works04.jpg)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on July 28, 2015, 11:42:02 am
I've been busy... :palm:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=163054;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on July 28, 2015, 12:01:38 pm
The 8x part is obviously a scam. But, it is a different matter to make it obvious for average non-EEs who may not know the difference between voltage, wattage and energy.  All the numbers, graphs and theories can help very little here. 

On the other hand, a simple video with proper test setup can be much more convincing: The monkey toy can be a good test device for being "well-known" as a "battery tester". The test setup should use a stack DC-DC converter ( that presumably uses a similar technology, except the miniature part) and a bunch of random dead batteries that has open voltage above 1.3V.   

The important thing to test is to measure how long the toy can play with such test setup. This compared to the working time of a set of fresh batteries will, much better, show how much capacity is left in random dead batteries.

The fact that Batteriser guys did not show any data with tests similar to the above one  already implied they are pulling a scam. Their video about the the keyboard showed full battery and, then, they skipped the important part, that is to show how long this full battery status lasted. Obviously, something they are trying to hide.

 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 28, 2015, 12:09:50 pm
The important thing to test is to measure how long the toy can play with such test setup. This compared to the working time of a set of fresh batteries will, much better, show how much capacity is left in random dead batteries.

After 5 years of development they still have not shown a single full discharge test comparison.

Quote
The fact that Batteriser guys did not show any data with tests similar to the above one  already implied they are pulling a scam. Their video about the the keyboard showed full battery and, then, they skipped the important part, that is to show how long this full battery status lasted. Obviously, something they are trying to hide.

They are still running that Apple keyboard 100% demo to media, as late as last week.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on July 28, 2015, 12:14:28 pm
PHD - Piled Higher and Deeper.

What's with the hate for PhDs?

Am I the only one that thinks that it takes hard work to become one and it's not a waste of time? Without the theory developed mostly by PhDs there would be no engineering.

Or is someone in here going to tell Shahriar that he wasted all those years/money for nothing and that getting employed at Bell Labs is really not that big of a deal?

Please don't equate that because the batteriser CEO has a PhD that PhDs in general know nothing.  I bet even the batterizer CEO knows exactly what he is doing one way or the other, even if it's just to build up the business to sell it before people do detailed analysis of the product, even if he promised an independent study will come shortly (probably after the campaign is over of course) and by that time they probably sell the company as other suggested.

Anyways, me for one, I do admire the efforts and struggles PhD students go through. I worked with many PhDs in my life and only one of them was an entitled a-hole, the rest where very nice and down to earth. But the distribution for A-holes don't have degree barriers. Some people are just that way.


Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on July 28, 2015, 01:49:26 pm
OK Batteroo,

Since you doctorates depend on undergrads to do your work for you, here it is:

Apple Trackpad (this will be very similar to the keyboard since both are bluetooth): 

0% indication voltage:  2.10V / 1.05V per cell

Functional cutoff voltage:  1.85 / or 0.925V per cell

Before you and your "engineer" go doing handsprings down the hallway because 0.925V is higher than the 0.8V specified by Duracell, I refer you to the same graph Dave did below, where you will see that 0.925 is very nearly depleted.  If you need an exact % of area under the curve of energy remaining, I'll have that in a few days, as I need to do that for a project anyway. By counting squares, I'm estimating the remaining charge is less than 5%.  Please show me the math of how you plan to extrapolate that <5% into 800% better battery life.

Oh, and your argument about the voltage drop under load?  Bullshit.  Peak current is about 0.050 mA, and the measured voltage drop against fresh AA cells under that load is approximately 0.02V per cell.  0.04V one way or another does not meaningfully change reality here.  Will running electric motors have a higher voltage drop due to the current draw?  Of course they will.  But since your front page advertising is directed squarely towards modern electronics, I'm going to point this out to you (as if it hadn't been done enough already):  virtually all well-designed electronics use up their battery capacity nowadays. 

In other words, Apple is already extracting a very practical amount of energy from their batteries and leaving enough headroom to help prevent leakage due to over-discharge.  As a former Apple employee, it's surprising to me you don't know that.  Hmm...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 02:44:42 pm
Apple is already extracting a very practical amount of energy from their batteries and leaving enough headroom to help prevent leakage due to over-discharge.
Aren't people going to be annoyed that their battery indicators have stopped working?

Mucking around with the battery-level indicator is a cute press demo but real users are going to be angry that the indicator is now useless and their keyboards are dropping dead unexpectedly (and the level indicator wasn't warning them to have some spare batteries around).
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on July 28, 2015, 02:46:02 pm
I tried discharging a alkaline battery with constant power down to 0.3 volt to see where how much energy is available at the low voltage:
(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/cpf3/Duracell%20Plus%20Power%20AA-discharge-0.1W%20capacity.png)
It looks like there is about 10% below 1 volt.
The spikes on the curve is unloaded voltage, measured during a 1 minute pause.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 02:51:21 pm
After 5 years of development they still have not shown a single full discharge test comparison.
I predict that for every device that works better with a batteriser (and I admit there will be some!) there will be at least half a dozen which get shorter overall battery life.

(And with the double annoyance that battery level indicators no longer work).
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 28, 2015, 03:16:19 pm
Aren't people going to be annoyed that their battery indicators have stopped working?

Yep, very.

Quote
Mucking around with the battery-level indicator is a cute press demo but real users are going to be angry that the indicator is now useless and their keyboards are dropping dead unexpectedly (and the level indicator wasn't warning them to have some spare batteries around).

Yep. First time it happens they will throw it in the bin in frustration.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 28, 2015, 03:17:53 pm
I predict that for every device that works better with a batteriser (and I admit there will be some!) there will be at least half a dozen which get shorter overall battery life.

You'll be spot on.
They are now backtracking on their claim of it working with rechargeables. They are now recommending in the Indiegogo comments not to use it with rechargeables.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Lightages on July 28, 2015, 03:26:11 pm
Most rechargeable battery chemistries will self destruct if taken down to 0 voltage, or even below 20%. They shouldn't be backtracking, they should be screaming to not use them for rechargeables!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on July 28, 2015, 03:34:04 pm
After 5 years of development they still have not shown a single full discharge graph
Development? 5 years of meetings which actress to hire (and f...) for their promovids is more likely.
Probably they only started last year but that sounds worse then 5 years just as " lasts longer" sounds worse then 8 times more.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BravoV on July 28, 2015, 03:35:33 pm
They are now backtracking on their claim of it working with rechargeables. They are now recommending in the Indiegogo comments not to use it with rechargeables.

Wait till they backtracking even on "NON" rechargeables, as certain alkaline don't like to be discharged "deeply" as they will leak.  :-DD

Batteroo , guarantee it will make you alkaline cell leak like hell !!!  >:D
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on July 28, 2015, 03:57:32 pm
OMG!
Batteriser have finally admitted they were wrong and used the wrong voltage measurement to characterise their product!
It looks like a hasty update as they didn't even edit the English; it should be "A significant number of... still have a lot of energy left in them."

More amusingly, they changed "makes your batteries last longer" to "makes it last longer"... which could be interpreted as making the Batteriser last longer and not the batteries! :-DD

The phrase "intelligent voltage management and delivery mechanism device" is really awkward too. Maybe they really wanted to slather on the marketese and do something like this instead:
Quote
Batteriser leverages intelligent voltage management and world-class delivery mechanisms through boost conversion to provide devices worldwide with robust, scalable, modern turnkey implementations of flexible, personalized, cutting-edge power management solution architectures that accelerate response to real-world current demands and reliably adapt to evolving energy needs, seamlessly and efficiently integrating and synchronizing with their existing legacy infrastructure, enhancing the battery consumption capabilities of production consumer electronic devices across the market while giving them a critical competitive advantage by extending their runtime capability to the next level.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 04:02:03 pm
Most rechargeable battery chemistries will self destruct if taken down to 0 voltage, or even below 20%. They shouldn't be backtracking, they should be screaming to not use them for rechargeables!
And non-rechargeables might leak! Double whammy!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on July 28, 2015, 06:13:55 pm
They are already 261% funded in two days, how many green power morons just press that button  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lapm on July 28, 2015, 09:39:52 pm
They are already 261% funded in two days, how many green power morons just press that button  :palm:

Great mass of people don't understand basic math/engineering principles enough to save themselves from scam...

Or where you think all those believers of directional audio cables come from  ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 10:13:02 pm
Indiegogo has a policy of not allowing scam products: https://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms (https://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms)

Quote
Prohibited Campaigns

Campaign Owners are not permitted to create a Campaign to raise funds for illegal activities, to cause harm to people or property, or to scam others.

If the Campaign is claiming to do the impossible or it's just plain phony, don't post it.

Maybe it's time to drop them a line...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on July 28, 2015, 10:24:25 pm
IGG is part of scamming process.

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 10:29:00 pm
Quote
Prohibited Campaigns

If the Campaign is claiming to do the impossible or it's just plain phony, don't post it.

Maybe it's time to drop them a line...

Line dropped, FWIW.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 28, 2015, 10:36:23 pm
They are already 261% funded in two days, how many green power morons just press that button  :palm:

Great mass of people don't understand basic math/engineering principles enough to save themselves from scam...

Or where you think all those believers of directional audio cables come from  ;)
You can't really expect people to know everything, I certainly don't. Problem is that people put their trust in the wrong people.

Societies are based on trust, we tend to inherently trust other people in the community. It's probably something that is hard-coded in us on a fundamental level. A small percentage of people might be willing and able to take advantage of that unless there are mechanisms in place that prevent it.

People are also really bad at judging who to trust and who not to trust (source criticism), and people often believe what they want to be true rather than what is realistic, empirically provably fact or not. There is lots of interesting psychology going on I'm sure.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 10:52:28 pm
Or where you think all those believers of directional audio cables come from  ;)
You can't really expect people to know everything
They don't have to know everything, just enough to smell a rat.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 28, 2015, 10:56:53 pm
You can't really expect people to know everything
They don't have to know everything, just enough to smell a rat.

I agree. The average intelligent person in the modern technical age should be able to see a claim like "8x longer battery life" and think "hang on, I've been using batteries all my life, and suddenly someone found a way to increase the battery life 8 times?, I smell an "up to" spec rat"
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 28, 2015, 11:26:26 pm
In this case I agree that the claims they make are ridiculous, like 800% battery life, but people are used to exaggerated claims in advertising (and in many cases it's not like that, take the "anti corrosion car thing" mentioned elsewhere for example). These claims have also been repeated by what many would consider reliable sources. To most people a computer is just magic for example, so why shouldn't some gadget by some clever people be able to extend the battery life, if not by 800% ::), at least by a little. And then there are all the below average intelligent people that doesn't deserve to be scammed either.

Complaining about people being suckers won't help at least, because that will never change. (Consider all the people who pay hundreds of dollars for homoeopathic remedies, which have been proven over and over is obviously nothing else than plain water.  :palm:)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on July 28, 2015, 11:34:59 pm
They are already 261% funded in two days, how many green power morons just press that button  :palm:

Great mass of people don't understand basic math/engineering principles enough to save themselves from scam...

Or where you think all those believers of directional audio cables come from  ;)
You can't really expect people to know everything, I certainly don't. Problem is that people put their trust in the wrong people.

Societies are based on trust, we tend to inherently trust other people in the community. It's probably something that is hard-coded in us on a fundamental level. A small percentage of people might be willing and able to take advantage of that unless there are mechanisms in place that prevent it.

Naive or uneducated people believe things on trust.  Other people stop and think for themselves.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 29, 2015, 12:30:03 am
Naive or uneducated people believe things on trust.  Other people stop and think for themselves.
History shows that people aren't very good at thinking for themselves, not until we started testing if things actually work the way we believe (and they usually do not) did we make any progress.

Education is based mostly on trust in the teacher, books, school/uni and so on. To be really certain you'd have to test all the things you've learned and that isn't practical for most people. Of course, if you work with electronics for example, you would have noticed if things doesn't work as expected (i.e. you are testing the theory) but there will be much you can't test. How do you know the moon landing wasn't an elaborate hoax?

In this case, Dave did the proper thing and tested a couple of devices and showed that they do not stop working at 1.35 V. Problem is that Batteroo then says Dave performed the test the wrong way... Unless you yourself can tell who's right it comes down to trust.

But OK, I'll admit that in this case there are many red flags, like Dave isn't the one who's asking for money and 8x battery time is just way out there, etc.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 29, 2015, 12:32:08 am
They don't have to know everything, just enough to smell a rat.
I agree. The average intelligent person in the modern technical age should be able to see a claim like "8x longer battery life" and think "hang on, I've been using batteries all my life, and suddenly someone found a way to increase the battery life 8 times?, I smell an "up to" spec rat"
I wonder: At what point would people actually stop and think?

"Up to 100x longer battery life!"

 (from our newly discovered quantum battery booster - tap into the quantum field that surrounds us all)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 29, 2015, 12:36:15 am
Naive or uneducated people believe things on trust.  Other people stop and think for themselves.
Education was compulsory in a lot of places last time I checked.

(But I don't remember receiving any 'critical thinking' classes at school...maybe that's the real problem)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 29, 2015, 12:46:23 am
(But I don't remember receiving any 'critical thinking' classes at school...maybe that's the real problem)
That sounds like a good idea!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 29, 2015, 03:57:11 am
Quote
Prohibited Campaigns

If the Campaign is claiming to do the impossible or it's just plain phony, don't post it.
Maybe it's time to drop them a line...
Line dropped, FWIW.

"Hi there,

Thank you for sharing your concern with us. At this time, the campaign is under review to ensure that it adheres to our Terms of Use (http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms (http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms)). We will follow up with you if we have any further questions.

So what happens now? We will include the information you have provided along with all other information at our disposal in our review of the campaign. In some cases, we will contact the campaign owner to have them edit their campaign and it will remain on our platform. If the project doesn't follow our rules, we may remove the campaign. We may also restrict the campaign owner's future activities on Indiegogo.

To protect our users' privacy, we're unable to share the action we take. At Indiegogo, we take the trust and safety of our community very seriously, and we greatly appreciate your patience and understanding throughout this review process. To learn more about Indiegogo’s Trust & Safety effort, please visit: www.indiegogo.com/trust (http://www.indiegogo.com/trust)"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheSlider on July 29, 2015, 05:40:20 am
I was posting a reply to a user when they spammed the comments youtube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOMYDkxUWt8)
So then I came here and saw this huge topic. Wow. Are they doing this on every video mentioning the Batteriser ? Looks like someone is having fun with a bot.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Carl_Smith on July 29, 2015, 02:02:01 pm
Just had a thought.  This is like the 200mpg carburetor conspiracy.  People want to believe, even if it does defy the laws of physics.

Dave is being paid off by "big battery" to make sure that their sales aren't negatively impacted.   :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on July 29, 2015, 05:39:30 pm
Dave is being paid off by "big battery" to make sure that their sales aren't negatively impacted.   :-DD

We'll know if he turns up in a Varta / Duracell T-Shirt in the next video :)

McBryce.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 29, 2015, 08:22:20 pm
I was posting a reply to a user when they spammed the comments
So then I came here and saw this huge topic. Wow. Are they doing this on every video mentioning the Batteriser ? Looks like someone is having fun with a bot.

Yes, there is clear evidence that Batteriser are paying SEO people to spam comments on videos.
The "fan" Youtube channel for Batteriser that claims to be independent is anything but, it's most likely them, or someone paid by them.
And the "fan videos" that have been submitted are clearly fake and professionally shot and scripted.
It's so pathetic.
All classic startup Kickstarter marketing BS straight out of the MBA playbook.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 29, 2015, 08:33:22 pm
In this case, Dave did the proper thing and tested a couple of devices and showed that they do not stop working at 1.35 V. Problem is that Batteroo then says Dave performed the test the wrong way... Unless you yourself can tell who's right it comes down to trust.

Then Batteroo finally came out and admitted that it was actually 1.1V under load they talking about, thus proving I am completely right. After 5 years of developing this and never once mentioning it in the patent or their website or any promo material, press, or videos etc, they finally admitted it. But it only lasted a day or two before they removed the mention of 1.1V under load form their website.
Luckily I had it screen captured:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162891;image)
Everyone should keep reposting this everywhere!
It blows their claim completely out of the water, and it's why they had to change the wording in their promo video too, their logo etc.
They know that once they admitted that it's trivial for anyone to look a battery datasheet and see how much energy is really wasted in the battery at the 1.1V cutoff they have admitted. That puts their product, buy their own admission!, in the territory of only applying to a smaller number of badly designed products. No wonder they removed it.

The only thing they had left to defend themselves was the ridiculous and embarrassing claim that I did the testing wrong.
I'm in two minds whether to do another video busting absolutely everything they have done and have said, and changed etc. But I know it won't amount to a hill of beans.
Should I bother?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on July 29, 2015, 08:42:23 pm
...
The "fan" Youtube channel for Batteriser that claims to be independent is anything but, it's most likely them, or someone paid by them.
And the "fan videos" that have been submitted are clearly fake and professionally shot and scripted.
It's so pathetic.
...


The first fan video (nature man) was submitted before they explained on youtube and google+ how and where to submit them.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 29, 2015, 08:50:53 pm
The first fan video (nature man) was submitted before they explained on youtube and google+ how and where to submit them.

That's what you can do when you paid to shoot it  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 29, 2015, 08:54:06 pm
They claim in a recent article that they tested it in a GPS thingo and got 5 times the battery life.
Ok, great, why can't they just show this, use that as their big demo and then claim "up to 5 times"?
Instead they have to put on this bullshit dog and pony show that is flat out lies, deception, and demonstrable stupidity  :palm:
People would still buy their product if they were just honest about the whole thing.
They still haven't released any data they said was their "top priority", and of course, they won't, ever.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on July 29, 2015, 09:02:50 pm
I've been busy... :palm:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=163054;image)

Wytnucls just posted on another thread that they may release a version for rechargeables.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on July 29, 2015, 09:25:14 pm
They claim in a recent article that they tested it in a GPS thingo and got 5 times the battery life.
Of all the devices they could've cherry-picked, they picked one that's almost certain to have a boost converter already built in... :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 29, 2015, 09:29:05 pm
Of all the devices they could've cherry-picked, they picked one that's almost certain to have a boost converter already built in... :palm:

The only evidence they have ever presented is the video on the (non DC-DC converter) torch light meter test.
Of course, modern torches have DC-DC converters for a reason  ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on July 29, 2015, 09:34:23 pm
Was reading the comments on IGG, so they're rolling their own IC? Wow.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on July 29, 2015, 09:40:02 pm
The only evidence they have ever presented is the video on the (non DC-DC converter) torch light meter test.
Of course, modern torches have DC-DC converters for a reason  ::)

Yes, it is a bit problematic to run a led on 1.5V, but the drivers do not always try to get constant brightness (It is usual a bad idea on a single cell).
Lights with more batteries may go for constant brights or with timed dimming.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on July 29, 2015, 11:45:22 pm
I wonder: At what point would people actually stop and think?

"Up to 100x longer battery life!"

Something that came to my mind too.

Let's overdo them. Let's make a video claiming that batteriseroo's technology is dated, and claim we have a "much thinner stronger better" case that gives "up to xxx" times more energy, in "significantly more" devices.

I carry 5000 patents.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 29, 2015, 11:52:33 pm
The first fan video (nature man) was submitted before they explained on youtube and google+ how and where to submit them.
And you know that ... how?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 30, 2015, 09:36:49 pm
Impromptu 30min rant on the Batteriser here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=199gtbX1y4M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=199gtbX1y4M)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on July 30, 2015, 09:43:11 pm
Google ads is too intelligent  :o

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 30, 2015, 10:04:32 pm
Google ads is too intelligent  :o

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=163461;image)

I've seen it on ebay too, they are everywhere.
It's funny how they have to raise $30K on crowd funding site but have endless money for adsense ads, slick marketing campaigns with professionally shot videos etc.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 30, 2015, 10:36:07 pm
Impromptu 30min rant on the Batteriser here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=199gtbX1y4M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=199gtbX1y4M)
The best batteriser video yet!

PS: But I don't the product is fine, bullshit marketing or otherwise. I'm fairly sure that most products will get less battery life with a Batteriser than without. Plus it stops your battery-life indicator from working, and you risk battery damage and data loss in products like cameras which check the battery voltage before writing to SD cards.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 30, 2015, 10:51:02 pm
Dave II's mum used to check battery voltages??   :popcorn:

THAT's a mum!


Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 30, 2015, 11:09:05 pm
If you want to do another video you should simulate a Batteriser using a DC boost converter. I don't know if there's an off-the-shelf one with those voltages (single AA battery in, 1.5V out).

With one of those you can log the power curves for different modes (constant power, constant current) and see how battery lifetimes compare to just using the batteries on their own.

For constant power you'd have to feed into a second boost converter to make it realistic.

Log the total power use, show the boost-converter efficiency, draw conclusions.

If you can't find an off the self converter for 1.1 to 1.5V you could put three batteries in series and use a common-as-muck 5V booster. If you get one of the newer "PFM" converters they're usually close to 90% efficient - most likely much better than the batteriser can manage with its tiny inductor. Would people accept that? EEVBLOG viewers know it's equivalent, but...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on July 30, 2015, 11:13:11 pm
Or just wait till they are released and do a few real-world tests with the actual product.

McBryce.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 30, 2015, 11:26:21 pm
Or just wait till they are released and do a few real-world tests with the actual product.
The delivery time is October. That's far too late.

There's still time to get their crowdfunding cancelled... it's not over yet. Indiegogo's terms of use prohibit scam products or products that "claim to do the impossible".

The claims being made on the crowdfunding front page are clearly impossible.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 30, 2015, 11:29:29 pm
PS: But I don't the product is fine, bullshit marketing or otherwise. I'm fairly sure that most products will get less battery life with a Batteriser than without. Plus it stops your battery-life indicator from working, and you risk battery damage and data loss in products like cameras which check the battery voltage before writing to SD cards.

Sure, but I still think it could be a good product in several (but minority of) circumstances.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 30, 2015, 11:30:54 pm
Sure, but I still think it could be a good product in several (but minority of) circumstances.
I think the only example we've found so far is "Olympus Cameras".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on July 30, 2015, 11:32:00 pm
Indiegogo's terms of use prohibit scam products or products that "claim to do the impossible".
What if "some website" puts some text online, naming it "our own terms of use" and does nothing with it?
Are they held responsible in court, and have to pay back everyone, because they didn't investigate and delete it?

Or is that just part of the whole marketing scam?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 30, 2015, 11:37:12 pm
If you can't find an off the self converter for 1.1 to 1.5V you could put three batteries in series and use a common-as-muck 5V booster. If you get one of the newer "PFM" converters they're usually close to 90% efficient - most likely much better than the batteriser can manage with its tiny inductor. Would people accept that? EEVBLOG viewers know it's equivalent, but...

Yes, it's got to be using PFM of some description, otherwise the efficiency response will be horrible. And yes, I don't see how the required ultra tiny inductor can be doing it nay favors at all, I expect a fair bit of droopy somewhere. But that remains to be seen.
Why wouldn't they be boasting to the hilt if it was super efficient across the entire current range?
I don't understand how you can spend 5 years developing this, do a custom ASIC converter, and not publish an efficiency curve for it?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 30, 2015, 11:39:15 pm
Are they held responsible in court, and have to pay back everyone, because they didn't investigate and delete it?
I don't know but I'm betting it's a lot harder to do anything after the campaign is over and the funds released.

I wrote to Indiegogo and got this reply:

Quote
Hi there,

Thank you for sharing your concern with us. At this time, the campaign is under review to ensure that it adheres to our Terms of Use (http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms (http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms)). We will follow up with you if we have any further questions.

So what happens now? We will include the information you have provided along with all other information at our disposal in our review of the campaign. In some cases, we will contact the campaign owner to have them edit their campaign and it will remain on our platform. If the project doesn't follow our rules, we may remove the campaign. We may also restrict the campaign owner's future activities on Indiegogo.
I'm not sure how "editing the campaign" helps people who already signed up for a product but it's clear that campaigns can be cancelled.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 30, 2015, 11:41:56 pm
I don't understand how you can spend 5 years developing this, do a custom ASIC converter, and not publish an efficiency curve for it?
There's only one plausible answer: "People would point at it and laugh!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 31, 2015, 02:16:23 am
Luckily I had it screen captured:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162891;image)
Everyone should keep reposting this everywhere!
It blows their claim completely out of the water, and it's why they had to change the wording in their promo video too, their logo etc.
They know that once they admitted that it's trivial for anyone to look a battery datasheet and see how much energy is really wasted in the battery at the 1.1V cutoff they have admitted. That puts their product, buy their own admission!, in the territory of only applying to a smaller number of badly designed products. No wonder they removed it.

The only thing they had left to defend themselves was the ridiculous and embarrassing claim that I did the testing wrong.
I'm in two minds whether to do another video busting absolutely everything they have done and have said, and changed etc. But I know it won't amount to a hill of beans.
Should I bother?
Might be a good idea to update the "the batteriser explained" page with that admission! :D

I suspect you have said all that can be said to convince those who can be convinced. Do another video if it's fun, but just don't expect them to admit they were wrong (well, any more than they already have!)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 31, 2015, 02:22:25 am
Sure, but I still think it could be a good product in several (but minority of) circumstances.
I think the only example we've found so far is "Olympus Cameras".
And that cheap flashlight they showed perhaps (if you prefer constant light flux over battery-life), but why not spend the money for a batteriser on a better flashlight instead. (I would bet they got the flashlight idea from the eevblog forum as well.)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on July 31, 2015, 06:13:56 am
They change it again!

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: KennethAa on July 31, 2015, 06:43:38 am
David,

I'd like to help you out in figuring out the packet based comm you mentioned in the X-carve V3 video. Contact me.

With regards,
Kenneth
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on July 31, 2015, 08:35:41 am
They change it again!

Alexander.

Seems the same to me as this one:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=163005;image)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=163005 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=163005)

...or am I missing something?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on July 31, 2015, 08:39:04 am
What I find really annoying is that none of the changes has been announced on their IGG Update page. Seems obvious to me to explain any changes in the product goal or specification, especially after the campaign already started,  so people who already paid are given a chance to re-evaluate the situation and possibly ask for their money back.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on July 31, 2015, 08:55:24 am
What I find really annoying is that none of the changes has been announced on their IGG Update page. Seems obvious to me to explain any changes in the product goal or specification, especially after the campaign already started,  so people who already paid are given a chance to re-evaluate the situation and possibly ask for their money back.

Maybe IGG is really investigating and bringing things up so they are forced to change their claims unless they can prove them, and they are not ready to prove them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on July 31, 2015, 10:14:31 am
I like how their claims are getting more and more vague, presumably because Dave and the others are shooting them down one by one. :-+

They started off with "8x longer", pure bullshit like "1.5V of energy" (:o), failed spectacularly with something about "number of 0.1V steps" (here (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html), someone might want to save that article in case they want it taken down), and now they're basically down to "a lot of energy left" and "makes it last longer".

It would be funny to see if it turns into "Batteriser may make batteries last longer for some devices under some usage conditions", which would certainly be true, but I doubt they would be as successful with the marketing if they said that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rs20 on July 31, 2015, 03:22:35 pm
...(here (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html), someone might want to save that article in case they want it taken down)...
Wow, that article is spectacular:
Quote
<picture of massive pile of batteries>
This is my collection of spent alkaline batteries. Maybe it’s a good thing I never recycled them—with Batteriser I may never need to buy another battery again (barring leaks, of course).

Quote
A four-pack of Duracell AAs costs $4 on Amazon. Slip those AAs into a $10 set of Batterisers, and the circuit boosters will pay for themselves after three typical battery life cycles. Then, after that, you’ll theoretically get another five cycles of free battery life. And after that, the batteries themselves will be dead, but the Batterisers will live on to boost the lives of new batteries.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on July 31, 2015, 03:35:30 pm
That´s the story that started it all.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/'batterizer'-claims-to-increase-disposable-battery-life-8x/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/'batterizer'-claims-to-increase-disposable-battery-life-8x/)

So I´m pretty sure it´s going to stay put in there, just part of the marketing machine.

Pretty effective way to be picked up by the media, espionage and conspiracies, that would get the ball rolling! :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on July 31, 2015, 04:32:18 pm
It would be funny to see if it turns into "Batteriser may make batteries last longer for some devices under some usage conditions"
Continuing on this road they will end up selling the batteriser as a stainless steel protective sleeve to avoid scratches on your batteries  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on July 31, 2015, 05:08:40 pm
It would be funny to see if it turns into "Batteriser may make batteries last longer for some devices under some usage conditions"
Continuing on this road they will end up selling the batteriser as a stainless steel protective sleeve to avoid scratches on your batteries  :-DD

Two other options for the marketing department are as follows based on current trends :

1. Do your batteries roll off the table at the most inconvenient moments, even Mr Dave Jones himself suffers terribly with this most irritating problem, we may have a solution..... :blah: :blah: :blah: :bullshit:

2. Are you safety conscious and concerned about the disposal of batteries that still have some remaining power left in them, well we are, and you should be, our new device can assist by safely dissipating that dangerously stored energy..... :blah: :blah: :blah: :bullshit:

Copyright : Dont even think about it. !


Muttley

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 31, 2015, 05:35:27 pm
I like how their claims are getting more and more vague, presumably because Dave and the others are shooting them down one by one. :-+
They started off with "8x longer", pure bullshit like "1.5V of energy" (:o), failed spectacularly with something about "number of 0.1V steps" (here (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html), someone might want to save that article in case they want it taken down), and now they're basically down to "a lot of energy left" and "makes it last longer".

And what they say in the promo video has changed as I mentioned a while back.
It used to say
"did you know all the batteries you've ever used have only used up to 20% of their battery life."
Now it's
"Did you know that a significant number of dead batteries you throw away had only used roughly 20% of their battery life"
 :-DD

And of course their new "significant number" claim is now even on more shaky legs because they have admitted that most products have a dropout voltage of 1.1V under load, on both their main page (now removed) and their FAQ.

Almost to a point of where a Wiki info article is required to keep up to date with all the changes!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 31, 2015, 05:39:36 pm
Might be a good idea to update the "the batteriser explained" page with that admission! :D

Good idea, will go do that now.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on August 04, 2015, 07:16:21 pm
The also claim that testing devices with a bench supply is not a good test. They even explain that in a video but right of the bat they do something completely wrong. They show that a device works until 0.9V with a powersupply but when using two batteries with around 1.2V in each cell it fails. But they measure the voltage of the batteries without a load so it doesn't claim much IMHO.

Check their website and especially their FAQ.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 04, 2015, 07:28:13 pm
The also claim that testing devices with a bench supply is not a good test. They even explain that in a video but right of the bat they do something completely wrong. They show that a device works until 0.9V with a powersupply but when using two batteries with around 1.2V in each cell it fails. But they measure the voltage of the batteries without a load so it doesn't claim much IMHO.
Check their website and especially their FAQ.

Only until quite recently have they finally admitted that they measure battery volote not under load. Their entire patent and business model is developed around this fundamentally and embarrassing wrong technique.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 04, 2015, 07:33:06 pm
Another "technical" video coming, we can't wait!:
From the Indigog comments from Mr Batteriser:
Quote
@Robert P Appreciate your very good question. We are in the process of making a technical video that shows how our Intelligent power management circuit would perform and address the issue that you have raised. This is why we call the Batteriser technology an intelligent power management and not just a simple DC-DC boost circuit

Funny thing is I can't find the questions from "Robert P"
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on August 04, 2015, 09:45:59 pm
Funny thing is I can't find the questions from "Robert P"
From Robert P's facebook page  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on August 04, 2015, 10:20:39 pm
The also claim that testing devices with a bench supply is not a good test. They even explain that in a video but right of the bat they do something completely wrong. They show that a device works until 0.9V with a powersupply but when using two batteries with around 1.2V in each cell it fails. But they measure the voltage of the batteries without a load so it doesn't claim much IMHO.
I strongly believe that's deliberate. They know it doesn't work so they try to carefully sidestep the problem and sell it anyway. All the marketing is part of that. They won't ever give you a straight answer, including measuring the loaded voltage, because they know that would count against them.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 04, 2015, 10:45:08 pm
They won't ever give you a straight answer, including measuring the loaded voltage, because they know that would count against them.

They have actually admitted the loaded voltage is 1.1V, it was on their front page for a few days. It's still in their FAQ last I looked.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 05, 2015, 02:41:06 am
I would love to add a FAQ to the Batteriser site called "Why Dr. Roohparvar cannot apply Thevenin's Theorem."
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 05, 2015, 05:29:17 pm
... "Why Dr. Roohparvar cannot apply Thevenin's Theorem."
...yes but internal resistance and power supplies...
:-)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 06, 2015, 03:11:34 am
... "Why Dr. Roohparvar cannot apply Thevenin's Theorem."
...yes but internal resistance and power supplies...
:-)

Fear not, for  I connected a 0.233242233214698 Ohm resistor in series with my power supply when I ran my trackpad test.

At 5ma, it changed *everything*...


... by 0.001V   :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 09, 2015, 06:37:53 pm
Didn't the use an Apple keyboard to demonstrate the batteriser? How often has someone to change batteries to that keyboard. For my wireless keyboard is 2xAAA every 2,5 years.

(http://i.imgur.com/J0X4RZF.png)

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 09, 2015, 08:00:32 pm
Didn't the use an Apple keyboard to demonstrate the batteriser? How often has someone to change batteries to that keyboard. For my wireless keyboard is 2xAAA every 2,5 years.
(http://i.imgur.com/J0X4RZF.png)

That's another admission that will go in my blog article update.
The funny thing is, with that (obvious and always demonstrably true) admission it also shows that their custom ASIC that goes down to 0.5/0.6V is practically pointless, as there is virtually no energy left under 0.8V, except at very low currents which they are now saying the Batterier is not suited to.
And they used examples like low power wireless keyboards and remote controls extensively in their marketing campaigns. Oops, how embarrassing  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 09, 2015, 08:17:07 pm
It seems the battery file for an Apple wireless keyboard (small aluminum one) is couple of months... What do they use the battery for? Heating up the aluminum plate for a warm touch?  :P :P :P

I can see product engineers to try and solve complaints about wrong battery indicators in products. :P

Also there is another answers to question that don't exist on IGG comments.  :-// :-// :-//

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 09, 2015, 08:57:02 pm
They came up with some proof, here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c)

a Garmin GPS runs 5 times longer with the aid of batteriser.

It looks convincing, but I just can't believe this is right. Garmin engineers know what they are doing, I'm pretty sure of that.

So after a little search this product seems to be a Garmin Dakota. ( https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/prod30925.html (https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/prod30925.html) )

Now you can see this Dakota has a DC-DC converter just from the data that Batteroo provides (at 1:24), since the current consumption is rising to counteract the dropping voltage. You can also see some power saving actions kicking in at the end.

I checked the manual, and this state a battery life of max 20 hour, but of course that's with the backlight of.
But the manual also states that you have to select battery type. And this thing will run on alkaline, NiMH or Lithium. Now somehow I don't think they used the alkaline setting...


Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 10, 2015, 01:25:36 am
Quote
The current consumption of the Batteriser is in micro amps...

How many uA would that be Bob?  Because that is going to make a huge difference in the battery lifetime of people's devices, particularly things like remote controls where the batteries can last for years. A few hundred uA of constant, parasitic load will shorten that life to months.

Yet another fantastic reason to NOT double up on boost converters.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on August 10, 2015, 01:45:56 am
They came up with some proof, here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c)

a Garmin GPS runs 5 times longer with the aid of batteriser.

It looks convincing, but I just can't believe this is right. Garmin engineers know what they are doing, I'm pretty sure of that.


Didn't bother to watch the whole video, but look at that first battery graph. About 2 hours with at most 300mA current draw. Worst case that would mean that the battery pack only contains 600mAh. That's about the capacity of an ancient AAA NiCD cell. AA NiMH cells contain about 2000mAh. Not completely sure about alkaline, but that should be about the same or even more.

Edit:
Looking at this Energizer datasheet:
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/E91.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/E91.pdf)
At half an amp the batteries should contain about 1200mA. Looking at the graph below that, for a 2 hour service life at 300mA the cutoff voltage is 1.2V, makes no sense for a device that runs on NiMH cells.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 10, 2015, 04:52:21 am
And how much burden voltage does that data logger introduce into the test setup? Maybe Dave needs to comp them a microcurrent.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 10, 2015, 04:58:03 am
Just a side note... Why they had to change batteries? Couldn't they use the batteriser to the depleted batteries?  :-// :-// :-//

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on August 10, 2015, 05:54:01 am
And how much burden voltage does that data logger introduce into the test setup? Maybe Dave needs to comp them a microcurrent.

Looks like they used a Dataq DI-145 logger for voltage (where is the graph?) and a Hantek 365 for current. http://www.hantek.com/Product/HT365/HT365_Manual.PDF (http://www.hantek.com/Product/HT365/HT365_Manual.PDF)

That Hantek doesn't really look like a precision instrument, I doubt the burden voltage is better than an average multimeter. Explains why they didn't show the voltage graph, they are probably pissing away almost half a volt. Also explains why the life is so short in the non-batteriser test.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 10, 2015, 12:33:05 pm
And how much burden voltage does that data logger introduce into the test setup? Maybe Dave needs to comp them a microcurrent.

Not to mention all the interconnection and contact resistance in those long leads.
Notice how they don't measure nor tell you what the cutout voltage of the GPS is.
No need for any of the testing gear, just a clock, that automated tapper, and a time lapse camera. Compare the two. More technical smoke and mirrors only invites more criticism.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on August 10, 2015, 12:50:02 pm
Quote
It looks convincing, but I just can't believe this is right. Garmin engineers know what they are doing, I'm pretty sure of that.

Maybe, someone has contact and can get Garmin engineers' attention. It is to their and their company's interest to tell their side of the the story. Garmin may have lawyers chasing after Batteriser soon.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 10, 2015, 01:03:20 pm
And how much burden voltage does that data logger introduce into the test setup? Maybe Dave needs to comp them a microcurrent.

Looks like they used a Dataq DI-145 logger for voltage (where is the graph?) and a Hantek 365 for current. http://www.hantek.com/Product/HT365/HT365_Manual.PDF (http://www.hantek.com/Product/HT365/HT365_Manual.PDF)

That Hantek doesn't really look like a precision instrument, I doubt the burden voltage is better than an average multimeter. Explains why they didn't show the voltage graph, they are probably pissing away almost half a volt. Also explains why the life is so short in the non-batteriser test.

I think you're likely close as far as the voltage drop.   If someone has one, it should take all of 10 minutes to find the burden voltage range between 100 and 300 mA. 

It's just so ridiculous that these guys run an ammeter in series during a power life test.  Do they *NOT* know that they're dissipating energy in the current shunt of the meter?!! 

================================================

Hey Bob, since you are still apparently reading these threads, here's some more free consulting engineering for you:

One must run *two* separate tests: one characterizing the current and a separate test measuring the battery voltage as a function of time.  You don't get to run both at once UNLESS you compensate for the voltage and power loss...

i.e., you pony up for a battery simulator:  http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2307914/battery-power-management-solutions?cc=US&lc=eng (http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2307914/battery-power-management-solutions?cc=US&lc=eng)

http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1842303-pn-N6705B/dc-power-analyzer-modular-600-w-4-slots?nid=-35714.937221.00&cc=US&lc=eng (http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1842303-pn-N6705B/dc-power-analyzer-modular-600-w-4-slots?nid=-35714.937221.00&cc=US&lc=eng)

You'll need some power modules too:
http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-838452-pn-N6733B/dc-power-module-20v-25a-50w?nid=-35714.384326.00&cc=US&lc=eng (http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-838452-pn-N6733B/dc-power-module-20v-25a-50w?nid=-35714.384326.00&cc=US&lc=eng)

With the current $214k that you'll receive from Indiegogo, you should have PLENTY of money to buy the right equipment for the job.  Or you could hire an engineer with a mere bachelor's degree that actually knows what they're doing and run two separate tests. 

What you folks have done to try and "prove your point" is to introduce two *additional*, substantial errors, simultaneously.  Maybe you should just stop trying, because it's only getting worse for you. 

And, Bob, in the interest of getting you a piece of equipment that *might* get you close to making something resembling a factual claim, I will send you my Microcurrent for free on the condition that you use it to un-hose this marketing campaign and make factual claims.  Just PM me. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 10, 2015, 01:19:44 pm
Quote
It looks convincing, but I just can't believe this is right. Garmin engineers know what they are doing, I'm pretty sure of that.

Maybe, someone has contact and can get Garmin engineers' attention. It is to their and their company's interest to tell their side of the the story. Garmin may have lawyers chasing after Batteriser soon.

Garmin tells users upfront that alkalines are not best-suited to their device.  In Batteriser's defense, that this *could* be a corner case where a boost converter makes alkalines more suitable for a high-drain device, but if they ran their test setup properly, the results would likely be far less dramatic. 

GPS is just a high-drain technology.  50-75mA draw just to run the receiver is pretty common.  So, virtually every manufacturer says not to use alkalines, but use NiMH or Lithium disposables - which have a fairly flat discharge curve as compared to an alkaline. 

This whole thing begs the question of "what is wrong with the truth?"  This clip on boost converter could be a nice solution for these corner cases, and I'd happily support it if the claims reflected reality: that this will only help a small minority of devices. But instead, they're still hyping 800%, and only slowly, begrudgingly admitting that no-one's keyboard batteries will last longer with their product. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 10, 2015, 01:22:48 pm
I think you're likely close as far as the voltage drop.   If someone has one, it should take all of 10 minutes to find the burden voltage range between 100 and 300 mA. 

According to the setup in video they are using the Amps jack, so burden will be much lower than the mA range, which likely wouldn't have been usable at all.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 10, 2015, 01:25:39 pm
Garmin tells users upfront that alkalines are not best-suited to their device.  In Batteriser's defense, that this *could* be a corner case where a boost converter makes alkalines more suitable for a high-drain device

Oh course it is, that's why they chose it. I have no problem with that personally provided they are honest that this is an edge case.
Thankfully they have now admitted that the average modern products drops out at 1.1V at most. They had too of course, because their claims were borderline fraudulent. Now they can just happily get away with the usual "up to" marketing BS claim.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 10, 2015, 01:49:41 pm
I think you're likely close as far as the voltage drop.   If someone has one, it should take all of 10 minutes to find the burden voltage range between 100 and 300 mA. 

According to the setup in video they are using the Amps jack, so burden will be much lower than the mA range, which likely wouldn't have been usable at all.
Do you have one?  I couldn't see the labels on those jacks for the life of me...  Nor could I tell from any of Hantek's photos...   :o
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on August 10, 2015, 02:06:39 pm
Quote
Garmin tells users upfront that alkalines are not best-suited to their device.  In Batteriser's defense, that this *could* be a corner case...
Well, the GPS  already had a boost converter. It does not make sense that chaining two boost converters should have a lot gain in utilizing energy in batteries of any type, if any. It should have practically none, unless Garmin's design is at fault.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 10, 2015, 02:08:22 pm
Do you have one?  I couldn't see the labels on those jacks for the life of me...  Nor could I tell from any of Hantek's photos...   :o

You can see the jack used in the video, and a check of the manual front panel shows it's the Amps jack.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 10, 2015, 02:55:51 pm
Quote
Garmin tells users upfront that alkalines are not best-suited to their device.  In Batteriser's defense, that this *could* be a corner case...
Well, the GPS  already had a boost converter. It does not make sense that chaining two boost converters should have a lot gain in utilizing energy in batteries of any type, if any. It should have practically none, unless Garmin's design is at fault.

Duracell NiMH datasheet:  http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/nh15-2300.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/nh15-2300.pdf)

Since these devices are high-drain devices by nature, Garmin likely designed around the characteristics of a NiMH cell, which I believe shouldn't be discharged below about 1.1V (someone please correct me here if my info is incorrect).  They might even stop at 1.15V just for safety, since over discharging those cells damages them .  So, of course the battery life for alkalines will be artificially reduced by this.  Like Dave pointed out, one needs to know the cutout threshold of the device. 

NiMH also have about 1/4 the internal resistance of an alkaline, which helps prop up the voltage during current draw spikes. 

So, in such an isolated instance, the Batteriser might actually "help," I just doubt the 5X claim.  I'd actually go through the effort and go by REI and see if they'd let me test a device, but I doubt it will matter.  Batteroo will just probe another helpless toy animal's nether-regions and make a new video.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on August 10, 2015, 05:01:44 pm
I am not sure that the Garmin is a valid use case anyway. The backlit display is forced on permanently and the unit is inside, out of GPS reception, so it will be permanently searching.

Regarding the Apple wireless keyboard, I gave up using mine because it went flat so quickly, a matter of a few weeks. I am minded to take a look at what the draw is, I suspect that it maintains a semi permanent bluetooth connection when the Mac it's paired with is in standby so it can power it up from the keyboard. Irrespective, I did once take a look at the unloaded voltage on the supoosed depleted cells and it was still 1.3V, so there may be a design flaw.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on August 10, 2015, 05:54:51 pm
Not sure why they built that rig anyway, I'm pretty sure that GPS has an "always on" mode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fulJk3fYxE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fulJk3fYxE)

At 5:40 is a screenshot of the settings menu (in Dutch):

At 3:58 is a screenshot of the battery selection. It even has a specific mode for alkaline.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 10, 2015, 06:08:16 pm
At 3:58 is a screenshot of the battery selection. It even has a specific mode for alkaline.

Which would likely change the battery dropout voltage detection. Batteriser of course don't mention that.
And if the Alkaline setting does indeed have a lower low battery cutout voltage, then their testing is either embaressingly flawed, or deliberately deceptive.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 10, 2015, 06:22:52 pm
I do not see a "batteriser" in the video.
It's a complete scam video.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 10, 2015, 06:24:20 pm
http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/Dakota_OM_EN.pdf#page8 (http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/Dakota_OM_EN.pdf#page8)

 :palm: OK, so on page two of the manual, we find the battery type setting. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 10, 2015, 08:18:28 pm
I do not see a "batteriser" in the video.
It's a complete scam video.
Try looking at 1:15...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 10, 2015, 08:20:47 pm
:palm: OK, so on page two of the manual, we find the battery type setting.

To not mention that in the video is truly  :palm: worthy indeed.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 10, 2015, 08:25:12 pm
Also, over 17,000 views in 2 days. My videos barely get that many and I've got over a quarter of a million subscribers. Who the hell is viewing this?
If I didn't know any better I'd say there is some bot racking views on their videos...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 10, 2015, 08:26:22 pm
Also, over 17,000 views in 2 days. My videos barely get that many and I've got over a quarter of a million subscribers. Who the hell is viewing this?

That's what that robot finger is for...  ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 11, 2015, 06:02:34 am
Also, over 17,000 views in 2 days. My videos barely get that many and I've got over a quarter of a million subscribers. Who the hell is viewing this?

17,000 of your 250,000 subscribers? :)

McBryce.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 11, 2015, 07:32:11 pm
I do not see a "batteriser" in the video.
It's a complete scam video.
Try looking at 1:15...

At 1:20 I see some 3D printed cover above the batteries.
But it isn't a batteriser, because that product still doesn't exist.

They could have used a breadboard with the "batteriser" circuitry, to be miniaturised.
But they didn't.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 11, 2015, 07:34:49 pm
... over 17,000 views in 2 days...Who the hell is viewing this?...
There are many politicians, store distributors and liberal arts students in the world.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 11, 2015, 07:51:56 pm
At 1:20 I see some 3D printed cover above the batteries.
But it isn't a batteriser, because that product still doesn't exist.

They could have used a breadboard with the "batteriser" circuitry, to be miniaturised.
But they didn't.

I think they have working prototypes?

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 11, 2015, 08:17:38 pm
17,000 of your 250,000 subscribers? :)

They wish. Nope, it's something else, and I can see no mechanism were they can get that many views (with youtube counter lag) in so few days. Something smells fishy.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 11, 2015, 08:20:08 pm
What if the video wasn't public and they had some service clicking it all the time?

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on August 11, 2015, 08:43:31 pm
17,000 of your 250,000 subscribers? :)

They wish. Nope, it's something else, and I can see no mechanism were they can get that many views (with youtube counter lag) in so few days. Something smells fishy.
Wasn't that channel owned by the guy who offered this:
https://nl.fiverr.com/smartit69/create-30-high-quality-social-bookmarking-backlinks-from-pr10-to-6

Wouldn't surprise me if he uses sites like MTurk or maybe even a botnet to generate hits.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 12, 2015, 09:18:50 am
I left a comment on the GPS video asking what battery mode they had selected. They deleted my comment.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 12, 2015, 09:20:18 am
Wasn't that channel owned by the guy who offered this:
https://nl.fiverr.com/smartit69/create-30-high-quality-social-bookmarking-backlinks-from-pr10-to-6

Don't know. Can anyone find out who owns that channel?
They claim to be "not affiliated" with Batteriser, yet have all their official videos and often talk in the first person as if it is them.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 12, 2015, 10:00:12 am
I left a comment on the GPS video asking what battery mode they had selected. They deleted my comment.

Why did they deleted it? :P :P :P

I was under the impression that after the fusion of G+ and YT, someone couldn't delete coments?

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on August 12, 2015, 01:10:42 pm
We all need to hit the comments with questions asking what battery mode they selected.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 12, 2015, 01:42:32 pm
We all need to hit the comments with questions asking what battery mode they selected.
Did that days ago, they didn't reply.

Better to write to Indiegogo. Their terms of service forbid impossible devices and 'scams'.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 12, 2015, 04:38:27 pm
I was under the impression that after the fusion of G+ and YT, someone couldn't delete coments?

Nope, a youtube owner can still delete any comment they like.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 12, 2015, 04:39:07 pm
Coming soon:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CML1viLWwAAxxTi.jpg)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pickle9000 on August 12, 2015, 04:46:48 pm
The monkey is awesome. That could be the new lab mascot.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikron on August 12, 2015, 05:18:34 pm
They really should consider renaming the product:
Borgerizer - internal resistance is futile
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on August 12, 2015, 05:35:46 pm
Coming soon:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CML1viLWwAAxxTi.jpg)

 :-DD
Funny as...
Love that, thanks Dave...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 12, 2015, 05:36:15 pm
Coming soon:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CML1viLWwAAxxTi.jpg)
:-DD :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 12, 2015, 05:51:57 pm
I can see my comment, but only when logged in. It got deleted?

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 12, 2015, 06:02:30 pm
Ah... OK. They are not going to publish it I guess. It was about the battery setting.

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 12, 2015, 06:04:48 pm
I can see my comment, but only when logged in. It got deleted?

AFAIR that happens when a comment is held in moderation queue.
Ahh, that's what happened to my comment previously as well!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 12, 2015, 07:03:34 pm
I think they have working prototypes?

Alexander.

Where do they state that? But even if they state it, I don't believe it. The necessary miniaturation for fitting in enclosures requires a 10000-run batch.

They may have a "working schematic" but it isn't documented and I don't see it. All I see is they have a 3D printed or otherwise CNC machined "cover" witch cannot contain the working schematic at this time.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 12, 2015, 07:09:08 pm
It says so to the article bellow.

https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html (https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 12, 2015, 07:24:00 pm
That monkey looks like he's enjoying that waaaay too much! :D

McBryce.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 12, 2015, 07:32:54 pm
From Dave's new tear down video.

(http://i.imgur.com/bIS3Xjf.jpg)

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on August 12, 2015, 09:28:05 pm
From Dave's new tear down video.

(http://i.imgur.com/bIS3Xjf.jpg)

Alexander.

The Butterizer?



Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 12, 2015, 09:45:48 pm
Oh! Someone must buy butteriser.com and post all Dave's videos about batteriser!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 12, 2015, 09:53:00 pm
The Butterizer?

 :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 13, 2015, 12:42:48 am
The person running the "Official Fan Page" Batteroo youtube channel just made a threat against a commenter  :--
On this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A8ATtlEWeg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A8ATtlEWeg)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=164968;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 13, 2015, 01:47:19 am
 :-- :-- :-- :--

Dave, as I mentioned to the other thread. Can they "attack" you for using parts of their video?

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 13, 2015, 02:00:50 am
Dave, as I mentioned to the other thread. Can they "attack" you for using parts of their video?
Who cares?  :-//

What's the worst that could happen? A DMCA takedown???  More publicity for Dave!  :-+



Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 13, 2015, 02:15:57 am
:-- :-- :-- :--

Dave, as I mentioned to the other thread. Can they "attack" you for using parts of their video?

Alexander.

It depends on the legal venue.  If it's the US, Dave quite likely falls under the category of a journalist, in which case it's "fair use." 
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 13, 2015, 02:22:57 am
Dave, as I mentioned to the other thread. Can they "attack" you for using parts of their video?
I guess Dave is protected by Freedom of speech and "fair use". But if they hire a lawyer, it could be still a hassle for Dave. Looks like the Batteriser company has quite some money, because they can do all these expensive videos. But they live in USA and international lawsuits are very expensive, so they won't do anything.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: flextard on August 13, 2015, 04:34:50 am
Yes, I saw the threat too!

Ridiculous!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 13, 2015, 04:44:44 am
This "threat" may merely be the doing of a devoted minion rather than a message from Dr. Bob himself. Still distasteful, but likely not credible.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: flextard on August 13, 2015, 05:23:46 am
This "threat" may merely be the doing of a devoted minion rather than a message from Dr. Bob himself. Still distasteful, but likely not credible.

Sure
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 13, 2015, 05:31:23 am
This "threat" may merely be the doing of a devoted minion rather than a message from Dr. Bob himself. Still distasteful, but likely not credible.
The Youtube "fan page" is obiviously created by the company itself, see the professional "fan" videos. So they are responsible for what the channel owner writes, or at least approve it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 13, 2015, 05:50:20 am
This "threat" may merely be the doing of a devoted minion rather than a message from Dr. Bob himself. Still distasteful, but likely not credible.
The Youtube "fan page" is obiviously created by the company itself, see the professional "fan" videos. So they are responsible for what the channel owner writes, or at least approve it.

As goofy as they are and as silly as their response to Dave was, leveling a threat like that seems off-base for them. I stand ready to be proven wrong, however. I often am when it comes to matters of human nature.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on August 13, 2015, 08:40:36 am
Just a heads-up on SYYNERGY7 (the poster of the most rcent 'support video')...

Google the handle SYYNERGY7, and you'll be impressed with this person's background and interests.
I won't run the full list here, as it is too expansive, but I'd guess he knows even less about battery chemistry than he does about Cat Flu or AIDS
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 13, 2015, 09:37:02 am
Dave, as I mentioned to the other thread. Can they "attack" you for using parts of their video?

Not successfully, no.
My use of their video falls correctly under the Fair Use clause on Youtube for the purposes of review and critique.
Especially so given that I am essentially a journalist and media blogger.
They also didn't complain about my first video. Indeed they essentially "approved it" by responding with this follow-up video attempting to answer my criticism.
I'm sure they would rather my videos and other criticism on other blogs does not exist, but there is nothing they can do about it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 13, 2015, 09:47:06 am
Comment about them using approved comments.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=165012;image)

So they have time to read the comments to find them "lovely", but not enough time to actually approve them. Yeah, right  ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on August 13, 2015, 02:29:20 pm
I see Dave's comment about battery mode on the GPS video, who knows how long it'll stay up though.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=165042)

That video has not enough downvotes yet... keep on :--'ing it!

In looking through the comments I found this "supporter" (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU7M_5IlPBmWBtln3EN0vrA) who looks like another marketroid bot.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 14, 2015, 02:51:12 pm
An EDN article calling out Batterisers claims.
http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440136/The-Batteriser--scam-or-savior- (http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440136/The-Batteriser--scam-or-savior-)

Quote
At the end of the day, although I commend Batteroo on its miniaturization achievement, I struggle to find a strong commercialization market opportunity for it. And attempting to rationalize early-adopter's investments in your company by means of dubious-at-best claims is penny-wise, pound-foolish.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 14, 2015, 08:02:41 pm
An EDN article calling out Batterisers claims.
http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440136/The-Batteriser--scam-or-savior- (http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440136/The-Batteriser--scam-or-savior-)
Very well written article, compact and informative, as most of the time at EDN. And your new official job title (I'm sure it would look nice on a business card) : debunker Dave Jones ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on August 15, 2015, 08:04:05 am
Hi group,

I have presented a fairly detailed analysis, using LTspice, of the combination of Alkaline batteries and a battery_booster in this thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/modeling-an-alkaline-battery-in-ltspice/msg731360/#msg731360 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/modeling-an-alkaline-battery-in-ltspice/msg731360/#msg731360)

Enjoy !!

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on August 15, 2015, 11:19:31 pm
17,000 of your 250,000 subscribers? :)

They wish. Nope, it's something else, and I can see no mechanism were they can get that many views (with youtube counter lag) in so few days. Something smells fishy.

Do you have any means of tracking how many users click on the links in your video description? Could it be an idea to try an URL-shortening service that do? Would be very interesting to see exactly how much traffic (and thus roughly views) can be attributed to you.

I only watch these videos through your links, I suspect many of your viewers do.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 16, 2015, 12:02:41 am
The Youtube Batteroo fan announced a new video:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=165474;image)
Seems a little bit of a weird fan to claim the product of his idol as his own doesn't it?
And who are
Quote
those whose revenue will be reduced
?

And why do they link to the Youtube channel of a fan that is
Quote
not in any way affiliated with Batteriser, or Batteroo Inc.
on their igg campain:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=165476;image)
They seem to have a vimeo channel, but than again, that could well be another fan of course...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: _Andrew_ on August 16, 2015, 01:00:37 am
With the qualifications that Dr Bob Roohparvar Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering and Mr Frankie Roohparvar M.S. in Electrical Engineering. I don't understand how they have got in to this mess regarding how to measure and determine the remaining usable energy in a battery.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on August 16, 2015, 02:39:38 am
Seems a little bit of a weird fan to claim the product of his idol as his own doesn't it?
And who are
Quote
those whose revenue will be reduced
?

And why do they link to the Youtube channel of a fan that is
Quote
not in any way affiliated with Batteriser, or Batteroo Inc.
on their igg campain:

He is a hired hand that promotes products on social media. That has been established a while back.

As for who are "those"? well, the whole campaign started with a tale of industrial espionage of breaking and entering to steal their tech. Whoever runs the campaign know exactly what they are doing and they are pretty good at human psychology used as a marketing tool.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pickle9000 on August 16, 2015, 03:30:04 am
With the qualifications that Dr Bob Roohparvar Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering and Mr Frankie Roohparvar M.S. in Electrical Engineering. I don't understand how they have got in to this mess regarding how to measure and determine the remaining usable energy in a battery.

Inept, probably not. Money related.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 16, 2015, 03:52:04 am
My questions were meant to be more or less rhetorical, but:
He is a hired hand that promotes products on social media. That has been established a while back.
He (Batteriser Batteroo on Youtube) actually explained this himself when asked by someone called EEVblog  ;)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=165542;image)

As for who are "those"? well, the whole campaign started with a tale of industrial espionage of breaking and entering to steal their tech. Whoever runs the campaign know exactly what they are doing and they are pretty good at human psychology used as a marketing tool.
Yeah, the fact that PCWorld (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html)) published this 'industrial espionage' story is what bothers me the most anyway. How could a good journalist not have any doubts after this stupid robbery(psst: it was the battery industry!) story? Or this 800% claim?

But who are they trying to fool when they say about the YT channel: "We are not in any way affiliated with Batteriser, or Batteroo Inc. We are simply a fan page.". And why don't they have a YT channel? This just doesn't make sense to me at all.
And also the way they talk on both YT and IGG, to me that looks like they are very affiliated with each other.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on August 16, 2015, 07:19:40 am
My questions were meant to be more or less rhetorical, but:
He is a hired hand that promotes products on social media. That has been established a while back.
He (Batteriser Batteroo on Youtube) actually explained this himself when asked by someone called EEVblog  ;)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=165542;image)


Ooooo, race card, anyone care to point out how anyone could possibly assert that unless they are grasping at straws of course?

Just when you thought this couldn't get any more desperate.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 16, 2015, 12:07:07 pm
So after a little search this product seems to be a Garmin Dakota. ( https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/prod30925.html (https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/prod30925.html) )
With some filtering I got this image from the video:

(http://i.imgur.com/Wvml9oE.jpg)

Looks like a Garmin Approach. The title of the same Vimeo video is "Golf Device" (http://tinyurl.com/qcqmhkm (http://tinyurl.com/qcqmhkm)), so the device might be a Garmin Approach G3: http://tgiblackfriday.com/Costco/Garmin-Approach-G3-Golf-GPS-deal (http://tgiblackfriday.com/Costco/Garmin-Approach-G3-Golf-GPS-deal)

Edit: manual is from 2009, it has a setting for the battery type (page 7) : http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/ApproachG3_OwnersManual.pdf (http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/ApproachG3_OwnersManual.pdf)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on August 16, 2015, 06:39:01 pm
Yep, definitely a Garmin Approach, great work seeing that!

Might be a good idea to have a separate thread "Batteriser Claims Debunked" to sort and categorise the information and tests you've all done and found!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 16, 2015, 06:54:29 pm
Someone should buy that device and test it.  >:D >:D >:D

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on August 16, 2015, 07:39:20 pm
Someone should buy that device and test it.  >:D >:D >:D

Alexander.

14 days return policy on all online purchases in the EU! Test and return, no money lost!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 17, 2015, 09:55:10 am
For those who want to know who runs the Batteroo "Fan Page", and also how much they have spent developing it so far:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=165779;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fsck on August 17, 2015, 10:05:11 am
how did they get "racist" out of any of this? American has nothing to do with race..
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on August 17, 2015, 10:09:44 am
I looked up the Batteriser's corporate address. It is located next to a Lowe's Home Improvement store in Sunnyvale, CA. This store is located on the sight where Signetics had a corporate address, their FAB and their R&D. How sad is that!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 17, 2015, 10:51:32 am
For those who want to know who runs the Batteroo "Fan Page", and also how much they have spent developing it so far:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=165779;image)

Batteroo folks,

Spending hundreds of thousands does not justify the making a litany of claims that any reasonable person familiar in the art cannot reproduce.

If these claims were reproducible, I would readily admit so and condemn the device manufacturer for shipping something so wasteful. Instead, what we see is that most manufacturers have excellent battery management practices. If partially depleted batteries are being disposed of, it is a human behavior issue not a device design issue.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mayo2017 on August 17, 2015, 10:57:30 am
For those who want to know who runs the Batteroo "Fan Page", and also how much they have spent developing it so far:

Dave, and those curious:
I had a conversation with a "fan" who just so happened to have registered on YouTube yesterday, is only subscribed to that Batteriser Bateroo channel, and is ALSO a friend of the inventor's son at the same university... and it was an interesting one. Screencapped it out of the YT alert box since the video comments don't show the whole string.

This is... probably the most relevant, but also the most family-friendly bit.
(http://i.imgur.com/eX1ukQz.png)

Imgur link to the full conversation in the interest of not taking up the entire thread with a picture.
STRONG language warning: http://i.imgur.com/jcvYNq3.png (http://i.imgur.com/jcvYNq3.png)

Edit: Were more replies since I took those screencaps, but they're just more vulgar posturing about "I'm just defending my free speech and a company I believe in" and such.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fsck on August 17, 2015, 11:02:07 am
the use of "your" instead of "you're" is kind of offensive
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Alexander.e.hiller on August 17, 2015, 11:28:42 am
Brad Jones fought with me as well! Sounds a lot like your conversation with him. I attached it below (please excuse the poor photo-shopping, I was using paint!)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mayo2017 on August 17, 2015, 11:34:28 am
Brad Jones fought with me as well!

By our powers combined, we... really attracted the attention of a serious nutcase.

I can't wait to make a screencap compilation of this whole debacle we got ourselves into.
He'll use his Visual Basic GUI Interface to track down our IP addresses. :popcorn:
(http://i.imgur.com/kXHc64B.png)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hugoneus on August 17, 2015, 11:55:06 am
This is clearly just a kid, doesn't know any better nor is he an expert in any meaningful way. I would just leave him alone and focus on understanding what can and can't be done with state-of-the-art DC-DC converters. It looks like about 5% to 10% increased battery life is possible in some circumstances. If that was their claim, that would have been Ok. But 800% is beyond ridiculous.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mayo2017 on August 17, 2015, 11:57:56 am
This is clearly just a kid, doesn't know any better nor is he an expert in any meaningful way. I would just leave him alone and focus on understanding what can and can't be done with state-of-the-art DC-DC converters. It looks like about 5% to 10% increased battery life is possible in some circumstances. If that was their claim, that would have been Ok. But 800% is beyond ridiculous.

Sorry, but I'm not of the opinion that people involved with scams taking 6 figures and up out of people who don't know better should be left alone in any respect.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hugoneus on August 17, 2015, 12:21:47 pm
This is clearly just a kid, doesn't know any better nor is he an expert in any meaningful way. I would just leave him alone and focus on understanding what can and can't be done with state-of-the-art DC-DC converters. It looks like about 5% to 10% increased battery life is possible in some circumstances. If that was their claim, that would have been Ok. But 800% is beyond ridiculous.

Sorry, but I'm not of the opinion that people involved with scams taking 6 figures and up out of people who don't know better should be left alone in any respect.

This kid is not involved. He is just a friend of the son of the "inventor". He is excited about the idea of working in this company and he has invested a lot of emotion and pride in it. He is otherwise not involved.

The focus should be in representing the truth to the public and addressing those who actually are making the claims.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 17, 2015, 01:06:03 pm
This is clearly just a kid, doesn't know any better nor is he an expert in any meaningful way. I would just leave him alone and focus on understanding what can and can't be done with state-of-the-art DC-DC converters. It looks like about 5% to 10% increased battery life is possible in some circumstances. If that was their claim, that would have been Ok. But 800% is beyond ridiculous.

Sorry, but I'm not of the opinion that people involved with scams taking 6 figures and up out of people who don't know better should be left alone in any respect.

This kid is not involved. He is just a friend of the son of the "inventor". He is excited about the idea of working in this company and he has invested a lot of emotion and pride in it. He is otherwise not involved.

The focus should be in representing the truth to the public and addressing those who actually are making the claims.

Yup.  Please, just leave the kids alone.  They are defending their parents and friends' parents.  That's natural and understandable.  I am certain that this young man truly believes in this product. 

I have addressed Bob directly in these posts because it is acutely obvious that he is reading them and responding on the Batteroo and Indiegogo sites.  Still, we must be respectful.  I apologize if my lighthearted jabs precipitated any decline in behavior into personal attacks.

So, please oh please, do not tussle with their friends or family members!  It's just not right.  Let's elevate the discussion.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 17, 2015, 02:14:11 pm
Imgur link to the full conversation in the interest of not taking up the entire thread with a picture.
STRONG language warning: http://i.imgur.com/jcvYNq3.png (http://i.imgur.com/jcvYNq3.png)
Edit: Were more replies since I took those screencaps, but they're just more vulgar posturing about "I'm just defending my free speech and a company I believe in" and such.

Mr Roohparvar and his company need to seriously disassociate themselves with these people who have now stepped it up to what amounts to possibly criminal threats of violence, however childish they may be. This "fan page" and their followers, all who by their own admission have said they have a close relationship to Batteroo, are bringing serious disrepute to their company image. Batteriser are allowing this "fan page" to talk in the first person as if they are them. If they have any sense at all they will put an end to this immediately.
I can't believe the former director of K-Mark Warren Flick who is their "Chief Strategy Officer" is letting this debarcle continue, let alone Mr Roohparvar and his brother.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 17, 2015, 02:34:30 pm
This "Brad Jones" character claming to be affiliated with Batteriser / Batteroo or their founders sounds nothing more than a teenage script kiddie. He's rather amusing actually -- I love the bit about "tracing IP addresses"  :-DD Pure gold. Oooh how I'd love if he could *actually* do as he says, he'd have a rude shock.

This whole Batteriser thing has moved from being a scam right through idiotic to downright entertaining. Someone should make a YouTube comedy series based on their original videos.

*Queue Benny Hill music*
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 17, 2015, 04:55:50 pm
RE: Spending "hundreds of thousands on patents and lawyers"

And then they only needed $30,000 more from IndieGoGo to get it going?  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 17, 2015, 05:09:16 pm
Did anyone ordered from the campaign?

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 17, 2015, 06:10:28 pm
Check out the blog thing on their Youtube channel!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A)

Quote
"Pls stand by we are in a process of releasing a video with the technical explanation for all engineers on how Batteriser works, while at first glance, it seems implausible, I am sure that real genuine engineers will appreciate our whiteboard technical discussions along with simulation, data matching battery companies spec sheets, in conjunction with device data. Of course, those whose revenue will be reduced by our technology will do everything to divert attention"

I wonder if it will be released before or after the end of their IndieGoGo campaign.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 18, 2015, 09:17:54 am
Check out the blog thing on their Youtube channel!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A)

Quote
"Pls stand by we are in a process of releasing a video with the technical explanation for all engineers on how Batteriser works, while at first glance, it seems implausible, I am sure that real genuine engineers will appreciate our whiteboard technical discussions along with simulation, data matching battery companies spec sheets, in conjunction with device data. Of course, those whose revenue will be reduced by our technology will do everything to divert attention"

I wonder if it will be released before or after the end of their IndieGoGo campaign.  :popcorn:

I particularly love their use of the English language. So professional!  :palm:

What I find funny is why their "engineers" need to explain it to other (actual) engineers?  :-//

Sounds like Batteriser / Batteroo are in serious damage control. They might actually realise themselves if their "real genuine engineers" conduct their "whiteboard technical discussions", simulations and "data matching" correctly, that their product is an epic fail.

I'm looking forward to the next instalment of 'Funniest Home Videos'...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rs20 on August 18, 2015, 09:52:11 am
(https://rs20-static.firebaseapp.com/pano/batteriser.png)

EDIT: Fixed broken image link.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 18, 2015, 11:09:56 am
This "Brad Jones" character claming to be affiliated with Batteriser / Batteroo or their founders sounds nothing more than a teenage script kiddie.

And he has multiple accounts.
He is now spamming my channel with comments like this.
My latest video had the exact same comment from both "Brad Jones" and "David Parish". What an idiot.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=165963;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on August 18, 2015, 11:22:39 am
I don't think this fellow is at all normal and is now attacking Arlens discussion page.

Arlens Youtube Page.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLfzK6R4o8yOQ7HY_VpFJfA/discussion (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLfzK6R4o8yOQ7HY_VpFJfA/discussion)

Some very nasty stuff.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/batteriser-expand-the-battery-life-of-disposable-batteries-by-800!/msg733239/#msg733239 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/batteriser-expand-the-battery-life-of-disposable-batteries-by-800!/msg733239/#msg733239)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=165973;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mayo2017 on August 18, 2015, 12:54:01 pm
It's just fun to peek around at some of the "commenters" on pretty much all of their videos. There's an incredibly high incidence of 1-3 word positive comments from accounts less than a couple months old.  :bullshit:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 18, 2015, 01:09:21 pm
It's just fun to peek around at some of the "commenters" on pretty much all of their videos. There's an incredibly high incidence of 1-3 word positive comments from accounts less than a couple months old.  :bullshit:
Ill do you one better:

(http://www.gifbin.com/bin/052009/1242749315_bullshit_amplifier-detector.gif)

 :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 18, 2015, 03:40:07 pm
I don't think this fellow is at all normal and is now attacking Arlens discussion page.

Yup, certified whacko.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on August 18, 2015, 03:41:37 pm
:o :wtf: they're clearly doing that because they've run out of technical arguments and are trying to divert attention away from it. Point that out to them if you feel like replying, and don't respond with the same sort of insults they're using.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 18, 2015, 03:45:55 pm
At this point, it will be interesting to just sit and wait.  The Indiegogo page went totally silent.  Something is brewing. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 18, 2015, 05:16:02 pm
Dr Bob posted this in the Indiegogo comments:

Quote
Thank you very much for sharing the posting with us..
Also with regards to your great suggestion, we are working on creating a well articulated video to show the reason why and how our technology works.
There are independent sources that are collecting data on thrown away battery in recycling center shows significant batteries have more than 80% energy left in them when they are throw away. By the way, these are well designed devices by very talented engineers.

Desperately trying to cling to that report (that they almost certainly found on here when someone posted it) to prove their 80% energy wastage figure.
And how can they possibly correlate which batteries were thrown away at the battery cutout voltage, and which were just tossed away for other reason. Let alone what device they went into that he could make the claim "these are well designed devices by very talented engineers"  :palm:
More demonstrable bullshit.
They can't of course, after 5 years of development of this thing actually provide their own data to back up their 80% figure.
It gets more embarrassing the more they try and struggle to justify their claims.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 18, 2015, 07:14:16 pm


I think they have working prototypes?

Alexander.

Where do they state that? But even if they state it, I don't believe it. The necessary miniaturation for fitting in enclosures requires a 10000-run batch.

They may have a "working schematic" but it isn't documented and I don't see it. All I see is they have a 3D printed or otherwise CNC machined "cover" witch cannot contain the working schematic at this time.

It says so to the article bellow.

https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html (https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html)

There were other articles before. Based on the lies in it, the propability they stated something right now, approaches zero.

There is no product. There are renderings, and a print case. And maybe a breadboard proto that works on 1% of the devices, with the condition that the battery type is wrongly set.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 18, 2015, 07:46:51 pm
There were other articles before. Based on the lies in it, the propability they stated something right now, approaches zero.
There is no product. There are renderings, and a print case. And maybe a breadboard proto that works on 1% of the devices, with the condition that the battery type is wrongly set.

Why do you keep saying this?
It is demonstrably true that the product exists. Reputable (rubbish batteriser articles aside) journalists have seen it working. I've spoken to one directly who has seen it.
There are also real prototype photos posted.
How well it works is another matter, but it does exist.
Remember, these guys clearly have big money behind them, and have been working on it for 5 years, and they have the technical credentials to pull it off physically.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 18, 2015, 10:03:25 pm
Haven't seen this business article before on Batteroo:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/batteroo-advisory-board-draws-from-more-than-100-years-of-power-management-electrical-system-product-development-success-2015-06-10 (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/batteroo-advisory-board-draws-from-more-than-100-years-of-power-management-electrical-system-product-development-success-2015-06-10)

Quote
"tested and proven"
"real and proven"

In what universe has it been "proven"? Given their obvious embarrassing public backtracking on many things since their claims have been called out, you gotta wonder just who did the "proving", and where that proof is?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 18, 2015, 10:24:33 pm
To quote Dave himself:

https://youtu.be/6a-jcaTn170?t=1m15s
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Arlen Moulton2 on August 19, 2015, 04:47:34 am
I got so much stick for doing a video like this, people are morons
 |O
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 19, 2015, 05:22:32 am
There were other articles before. Based on the lies in it, the propability they stated something right now, approaches zero.
There is no product. There are renderings, and a print case. And maybe a breadboard proto that works on 1% of the devices, with the condition that the battery type is wrongly set.

Why do you keep saying this?
It is demonstrably true that the product exists. Reputable (rubbish batteriser articles aside) journalists have seen it working. I've spoken to one directly who has seen it.
There are also real prototype photos posted.
How well it works is another matter, but it does exist.
Remember, these guys clearly have big money behind them, and have been working on it for 5 years, and they have the technical credentials to pull it off physically.

I keep saying it because there are no specs to be found. I mean, mature, real specs. Most crap on Aliexpress has better documentation.
There is no closeup, just shady pictures. Curious about how they did the miniaturisation in those 5 years.
For what the journalist say or think, I couldn't care less. Are they really that kind of guys that can't be fooled with a over-unit machine? It would be the first one I see.

The only thing that could make me think that it really exists, is the time it will be demonstrated by a (not on the payroll) user on youtube, or by you.
How it will perform, we already know that, no one's curious about that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 19, 2015, 05:25:38 am
Haven't seen this business article before on Batteroo:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/batteroo-advisory-board-draws-from-more-than-100-years-of-power-management-electrical-system-product-development-success-2015-06-10 (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/batteroo-advisory-board-draws-from-more-than-100-years-of-power-management-electrical-system-product-development-success-2015-06-10)

Quote
"tested and proven"
"real and proven"

In what universe has it been "proven"? Given their obvious embarrassing public backtracking on many things since their claims have been called out, you gotta wonder just who did the "proving", and where that proof is?

Time to pull their PhD and other grades in question. No serious one with some science/tech degree uses "proof" the way they do.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 19, 2015, 05:26:18 am
They say the inventor is going to do a live stream soon. Let the tough questioning begin.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 19, 2015, 05:27:44 am
I just heard a story on the web that what these guys are really after is to license the technology in Batteriser to Tesla motors. It will let their cars drive 8x further.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 19, 2015, 05:30:44 am
I just heard a story on the web that what these guys are really after is to license the technology in Batteriser to Tesla motors. It will let their cars drive 8x further.
And for the people that interprete 800% more as 9x, there's a bonus :-)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 19, 2015, 05:50:14 am
They say the inventor is going to do a live stream soon. Let the tough questioning begin.

Reference?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 19, 2015, 05:52:39 am
I just heard a story on the web that what these guys are really after is to license the technology in Batteriser to Tesla motors. It will let their cars drive 8x further.

?? Most commercial hybrid electric vehicles work on a charge/discharge cycle that only use a tiny fraction of the batteries capacity, somewhere between 100% and 85% fully charged, they delibrately don't get even close to deep discharging the batteries. I don't know the Tesla system, but I'm pretty sure that they have also heavily researched exactly what the "sweet spot" is for their system. As well as that, electric vehicles need AC because they usually use 3 phase AC motors, so there's an inverter in there converting the voltage to AC. A booster would be of no use to a HEV / EV at all.

McBryce.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 19, 2015, 05:58:32 am
They say the inventor is going to do a live stream soon. Let the tough questioning begin.

Reference?
Brad Jones@ 3:20 PM


 1
Reply
 
+Ccs4646 The inventor will be going live stream after the release of the new video. This will be your opportunity to ask all the tough questions live, and "disprove" the product! I will not remember to come find you for the live stream, but if you subscribe to +Batteriser Batteroo ONLY FOR ONE WEEK (This is not an attempt to increase their subscribers, they will be doing all the things you guys want), you will be updated and can let your army of Dave fans know about it.
They are doing this for the skeptics and engineers, it was not planned. It was due to high request. +EEVblog can also ask tough questions and "disprove" the batteriser live.

Let's draw as big of a crowd as possible to this debate between Batteroo Inc and Dave Jones at +EEVblog

Edit: I will not be doing any live debate, as I am not the inventor. This will be a chance for the best from +EEVblog vs the best from Batteroo Inc. I am not up on that level to be able to handle all the tough questions, yet.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 19, 2015, 06:03:42 am
They say the inventor is going to do a live stream soon. Let the tough questioning begin.

Reference?
Brad Jones@ 3:20 PM


 1
Reply
 
+Ccs4646 The inventor will be going live stream after the release of the new video. This will be your opportunity to ask all the tough questions live, and "disprove" the product! I will not remember to come find you for the live stream, but if you subscribe to +Batteriser Batteroo ONLY FOR ONE WEEK (This is not an attempt to increase their subscribers, they will be doing all the things you guys want), you will be updated and can let your army of Dave fans know about it.
They are doing this for the skeptics and engineers, it was not planned. It was due to high request. +EEVblog can also ask tough questions and "disprove" the batteriser live.

Let's draw as big of a crowd as possible to this debate between Batteroo Inc and Dave Jones at +EEVblog

Edit: I will not be doing any live debate, as I am not the inventor. This will be a chance for the best from +EEVblog vs the best from Batteroo Inc. I am not up on that level to be able to handle all the tough questions, yet.
Isn't Brad the guy that was leveling the threats?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 19, 2015, 06:08:07 am
They say the inventor is going to do a live stream soon. Let the tough questioning begin.

Reference?
Brad Jones@ 3:20 PM


 1
Reply
 
+Ccs4646 The inventor will be going live stream after the release of the new video. This will be your opportunity to ask all the tough questions live, and "disprove" the product! I will not remember to come find you for the live stream, but if you subscribe to +Batteriser Batteroo ONLY FOR ONE WEEK (This is not an attempt to increase their subscribers, they will be doing all the things you guys want), you will be updated and can let your army of Dave fans know about it.
They are doing this for the skeptics and engineers, it was not planned. It was due to high request. +EEVblog can also ask tough questions and "disprove" the batteriser live.

Let's draw as big of a crowd as possible to this debate between Batteroo Inc and Dave Jones at +EEVblog

Edit: I will not be doing any live debate, as I am not the inventor. This will be a chance for the best from +EEVblog vs the best from Batteroo Inc. I am not up on that level to be able to handle all the tough questions, yet.
Isn't Brad the guy that was leveling the threats?
Indeed he was. To me questioning that he says:
Brad Jones @ 3:40 PM


 1
Reply
 
+Ccs4646 It has been rough  for the past few weeks with a lot of hate mail for the fan page community and myself. I am only human and make mistakes when emotional. I apologize for any hostility. 
Bests?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 19, 2015, 06:15:01 am
+Ccs4646 The inventor will be going live stream after the release of the new video.

So ... that's definitely AFTER the IndieGoGo campaign has finished, right?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on August 19, 2015, 06:21:08 am
They say the inventor is going to do a live stream soon. Let the tough questioning begin.

Reference?
Brad Jones@ 3:20 PM


 1
Reply
 
+Ccs4646 The inventor will be going live stream after the release of the new video. This will be your opportunity to ask all the tough questions live, and "disprove" the product! I will not remember to come find you for the live stream, but if you subscribe to +Batteriser Batteroo ONLY FOR ONE WEEK (This is not an attempt to increase their subscribers, they will be doing all the things you guys want), you will be updated and can let your army of Dave fans know about it.
They are doing this for the skeptics and engineers, it was not planned. It was due to high request. +EEVblog can also ask tough questions and "disprove" the batteriser live.

Let's draw as big of a crowd as possible to this debate between Batteroo Inc and Dave Jones at +EEVblog

Edit: I will not be doing any live debate, as I am not the inventor. This will be a chance for the best from +EEVblog vs the best from Batteroo Inc. I am not up on that level to be able to handle all the tough questions, yet.

remember The Bill Nye-Ken Ham debate? or Chomsky-some other idiot one? its always a TARP, all it does it legitimises the retards pretending they are on the level playing field. It reframes the situation from 'look at that idiot' to 'oh, its a matter of opinion'.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 19, 2015, 06:38:40 am
So, this this will all make so much more sense in a one-sided ask-me any question I feel like answering format?!

They have two websites, a highly professional PR firm, the remains of likely $1M in VC funding, and it's just too difficult to show the arithmetic and EE100 and 200 series calculations that make their claims plausible?  A three page PDF should be all it takes to make their case. 

...oh, that's right. There isn't one.  :palm:

Don't take the bait, folks.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 19, 2015, 06:59:19 am
"Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies"

Isn't that what not allowing comments on their videos, without approval, is all about?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 19, 2015, 08:31:48 am
(http://www.globalwealthprotection.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/chief-wiggum-300x225.png)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 09:44:58 am
I got so much stick for doing a video like this, people are morons
 |O

You did good Arlen, don't worry about it.
Yes people are morons, and some people get very angry at the truth, they can't handle it.
Keep it up, you are the one creating content, they are the ones making hot air. You are the winner.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 09:47:20 am
I keep saying it because there are no specs to be found. I mean, mature, real specs. Most crap on Aliexpress has better documentation.

The specs are a different thing entirely to the actual product being a real physical thing.
There is no doubt the physical prototypes exist and they work as a basic boost converter.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 09:52:40 am
remember The Bill Nye-Ken Ham debate? or Chomsky-some other idiot one? its always a TARP, all it does it legitimises the retards pretending they are on the level playing field. It reframes the situation from 'look at that idiot' to 'oh, its a matter of opinion'.

Yep, I agree.
I wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole.
It's simple, they have made extraordinary claims, they can put up a video providing their extraordinary evidence.
Engineers are happy to be proven wrong just show us the data and the proof.
It speaks volumes that Batteriser, after 5 years of development and huge money invested, have not been able to show one scrap of proof their claims are real that any decent engineer will see and go "Oh, yeah, its really does work as claimed".
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 19, 2015, 10:18:27 am
remember The Bill Nye-Ken Ham debate? or Chomsky-some other idiot one? its always a TARP, all it does it legitimises the retards pretending they are on the level playing field. It reframes the situation from 'look at that idiot' to 'oh, its a matter of opinion'.

Yep, I agree.
I wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole.
It's simple, they have made extraordinary claims, they can put up a video providing their extraordinary evidence.
Engineers are happy to be proven wrong just show us the data and the proof.
It speaks volumes that Batteriser, after 5 years of development and huge money invested, have not been able to show one scrap of proof their claims are real that any decent engineer will see and go "Oh, yeah, its really does work as claimed".
My question is, will you ask the tough questions on the live stream? Oh by the way Dave they can't take down your video,
Since your video falls under the Fair Dealing law of Australia for these reasons:
review or criticism
research or study
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 10:24:45 am
My question is, will you ask the tough questions on the live stream?

I don't know anything about this live stream, and I wouldn't waste my time on it anyway.

Quote
Oh by the way Dave they can't take down your video,
Since your video falls under the Fair Dealing law of Australia for these reasons:
review or criticism
research or study

I know that, they'd be fools to even try, which is why they haven't tried.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 10:27:18 am
My question is, will you ask the tough questions on the live stream?

I don't know anything about this live stream, and I wouldn't waste my time on it anyway for the reasons Rasz said. It's like debating a creationist, it's pointless.
They can make fools out of themselves, it seems they don't need my help.
I know some people might find this surprising, but I'm not all that interested in Batteriser apart from mild amusement.
When they put up their new video, it'll be hard to find the enthusiasm to do another reply video to what will almost certainly be more BS.

Quote
Oh by the way Dave they can't take down your video,
Since your video falls under the Fair Dealing law of Australia for these reasons:
review or criticism
research or study

I know that, they'd be fools to even try, which is why they haven't tried.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 19, 2015, 10:36:46 am
A "debate" in which the opposing party controls the venue, the agenda, and the mute button is not a debate.

Please, no one take duh-bait. ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 19, 2015, 10:46:00 am
A "debate" in which the opposing party controls the venue, the agenda, and the mute button is not a debate.

Please, no one take the bait.

I have no intention in watching or even subscribing to their channel. Crap like Batteriser are spinning doesn't deserve views except for the purpose of ridicule.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 10:52:10 am
I just checked on their PSU "debunking" video, 1140 thumbs down  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 19, 2015, 11:02:28 am
I'm on pins and needles waiting for an instructional video showing:

0.9 + 0.1 = 8

Apparently the video production techniques required to suspend mathematics are fairly involved. I thought they'd be done by now.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on August 19, 2015, 11:02:45 am
I just checked on their PSU "debunking" video, 1140 thumbs down  :-DD

1,141 now...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on August 19, 2015, 11:03:49 am
A debate? I didn't know the questions in science and engineering depended on debating skills. I thought it was a question of logic and experiment. Silly me.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 11:32:25 am
A debate? I didn't know the questions in science and engineering depended on debating skills. I thought it was a question of logic and experiment. Silly me.

That's why you'd be foolish to debate them, just like debating creationists. Show us your engineering evidence or don't be surprised when engineers laugh at silly demonstrably wrong claims.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on August 19, 2015, 11:33:07 am
DAVE -
Just curious... have the Batteriser / Batteroo / Roopahvar team tried to contact ypu in any way or fprm since this exploded ?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 19, 2015, 11:38:29 am
Apparently the video production techniques required to suspend mathematics are fairly involved. I thought they'd be done by now.
Well maybe they (Finally) realized it's a lost cause and are trying to suspend it as long as possible? I wonder if they are running around with their asses on fire.  :scared:   :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 19, 2015, 11:49:05 am
Apparently the video production techniques required to suspend mathematics are fairly involved. I thought they'd be done by now.
Well maybe they (Finally) realized it's a lost cause and are trying to suspend it as long as possible? I wonder if they are running around with their asses on fire.  :scared:   :-DD
If someone's tail is on fire, it's because a few angry Korean VC's are chasing them around the office with a flamethrower.

SK Telecom opens the bank account on their client's behalf. You have to wonder if they didn't walk down to the bank yesterday and turn off the spigot.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 12:54:18 pm
Just curious... have the Batteriser / Batteroo / Roopahvar team tried to contact ypu in any way or fprm since this exploded ?

Nope, nothing. Not even a message on my videos, or blog post, or the forum.
I think that actually tells a lot.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 12:58:58 pm
Apparently the video production techniques required to suspend mathematics are fairly involved. I thought they'd be done by now.
Well maybe they (Finally) realized it's a lost cause and are trying to suspend it as long as possible?

Their video will no doubt be very polished and again professionally produced, and that takes time. Although they did say "stand by". But once again, that's though this stupid and confusing Batteroo "Fan Page", so technically it's not them saying anything.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on August 19, 2015, 01:22:30 pm
Just curious... have the Batteriser / Batteroo / Roopahvar team tried to contact ypu in any way or fprm since this exploded ?
Nope, nothing. Not even a message on my videos, or blog post, or the forum.
I think that actually tells a lot.
Indeed - if they try to call you out - they have to expose their position to validate their gripe!
Laughing! :box:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 19, 2015, 01:33:43 pm
I wonder if this guy is our "Brad Jones" AKA "David Parish" (he doesn't even make a convincing magician)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4_XvJaQO34 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4_XvJaQO34)

I literally laughed out loud when the next video in YouTube's automatic playlist was Dave's debunking video!  :-DD

The video does explain it all though; Batteriser isn't based on science or fact, it's magic!

I've also noticed they've recently begun uploading and linking their videos to Vimeo instead of Youtube, probably to avoid hits/suggestions to the debunking videos? They've also disabled comments on the Vimeo videos.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 19, 2015, 02:56:07 pm
But once again, that's though this stupid and confusing Batteroo "Fan Page", so technically it's not them saying anything.
All none-fan videos of the Youtube "fan page" are on their Vimeo page, too:

https://vimeo.com/user40765535/videos (https://vimeo.com/user40765535/videos)

The video 134165326 on the Vimeo page of this account is linked from the Indiegogo campaign (see HTML source code of https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x)).
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 19, 2015, 04:26:15 pm
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=166163)
 :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 04:37:49 pm
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=166163)
 :-DD

EMERGENCY!
Quick, what is the best idea we can come up with to delay the engineering video that no one will dare question?
That's it, THE TROOPS!
 :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 19, 2015, 04:38:21 pm
After Garmin, Raytheon is next...

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pickle9000 on August 19, 2015, 04:47:38 pm
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=166163)
 :-DD

EMERGENCY!
Quick, what is the best idea we can come up with to delay the engineering video that no one will dare question?
That's it, THE TROOPS!
 :-DD

U.S.A. U.S.A., Next up... Child stuck in well needs light, then something bunny related.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 19, 2015, 04:53:37 pm
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=166163)
 :-DD

Would be quicker to just measure the cut off voltage! Or possibly even just RTFM?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 19, 2015, 04:55:49 pm
When I was in the army, we was "forced" to keep our batteries (alkaline) in the fridge. Does it help at all for long time storage?

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 19, 2015, 05:00:00 pm
When I was in the army, we was "forced" to keep our batteries (alkaline) in the fridge. Does it help at all for long time storage?

Alexander.
Nope makes it worse.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 19, 2015, 05:01:58 pm
When I was in the army, we was "forced" to keep our batteries (alkaline) in the fridge. Does it help at all for long time storage?

Alexander.
Nope makes it worse.
There's three ways to do anything: The right way, the wrong way, and the army way.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on August 19, 2015, 06:16:58 pm
I sense a military model.

The Battalioniser

Men don your flak flat jackets.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 19, 2015, 06:25:40 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/pN5myvM.png)

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 06:32:09 pm
U.S.A. U.S.A., Next up... Child stuck in well needs light, then something bunny related.

You can't write comedy this good! Batteriser is the product that just keeps on giving  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 19, 2015, 06:33:29 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/pN5myvM.png)

Alexander.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuaA-rUBmEc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuaA-rUBmEc)

 :-//
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 06:41:38 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/pN5myvM.png)
Alexander.

Right there he is demonstrably wrong once again.
"The use of a bench power supply to determine device cutoff voltage is inaccurate."
And what the hell does the current limit setting have to do with it? That's for device overcurrent protection!
This is utterly stunning coming from a PhD EE, professor, very experienced designer in the power industry, and someone who's spent 5 years developing a battery boost converter.
Absolutely gob smackingly amazingly embarrassing statement.
Where does he think the battery cutoff voltage is measured?
It doesn't matter how many times he repeats this nonsense, it won't magically make it true.

Unfortunately he's between a rock and hard place. He's made these absurdly provably wrong statements and either has to admit he was wrong, or just keep sprouting them.
Either way he's a made himself into a laughing stock.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 19, 2015, 07:12:29 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/pN5myvM.png)
Alexander.

Right there he is demonstrably wrong once again.
"The use of a bench power supply to determine device cutoff voltage is inaccurate."
And what the hell does the current limit setting have to do with it? That's for device overcurrent protection!
This is utterly stunning coming from a PhD EE, professor, very experienced designer in the power industry, and someone who's spent 5 years developing a battery boost converter.
Absolutely gob smackingly amazingly embarrassing statement.
Where does he think the battery cutoff voltage is measured?
It doesn't matter how many times he repeats this nonsense, it won't magically make it true.

Unfortunately he's between a rock and hard place. He's made these absurdly provably wrong statements and either has to admit he was wrong, or just keep sprouting them.
Either way he's a made himself into a laughing stock.
Strange that they're going into so much trouble explaining the technology anyway, since Bob already told us long time ago that it's nothing new, only the miniaturization is:
Quote
Voltage boosters are nothing new, but Batteriser scales down the technology to the point where it can fit inside a stainless steel sleeve less than 0.1 mm thick. Roohparvar says the sleeves are thin enough to fit inside almost every battery compartment imaginable, and the combined package can extend battery life between 4.9x for devices like remote controls and 9.1x for various electronic toys.

“The Batteriser has boost circuitry that will boost the voltage from 0.6 volts to 1.5 volts and will maintain voltage at 1.5—which is a brand new battery,” Roohparvar says. “There’s actually no IP [intellectual property] in the boost circuitry. Our technology is really a miniaturization technique that allows us to build the sleeve. We have some IP in some of the IC circuits that are in there, but the key is we’ve been able to miniaturize the boost circuit to a point that no one else has been able to achieve. “
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 07:38:17 pm
Strange that they're going into so much trouble explaining the technology anyway, since Bob already told us long time ago that it's nothing new, only the miniaturization is:

Yes, very strange.
They seem to be under some delusion that engineers don't have a clue about how a boost converter works, or what the internal resistance of a battery is, or how to measure cutoff voltage etc. Even though millions of new products gets designed every year with complete understanding of this stuff. It's bread and butter stuff to any engineer.
Was speaking to a company the other day that makes well know high end commercial battery testers, and they are as stunned and baffled at the Batteriser's silly claims as everyone else is. They saw their monkey video and went  :wtf:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Joule Thief on August 19, 2015, 08:01:02 pm
I just stumbled across this

https://youtu.be/FjQL4rtKFKw

 :palm: The analogy drawn is "your the man who squeezes the last bit out of the toothpaste tube".

And you know, for most people, that might just be the most visually graphic and accurate statement yet made about the product. Now try to convince my mind's eye I'm going to be getting 8x more toothpaste from my tube than I'm used to.

BTW  I'm not the jolliest joker in the bunch but keeping a wide grin like that on your face for 7 plus minutes has to hurt!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on August 19, 2015, 08:25:21 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/pN5myvM.png)

Let's try thinking his way, just for the fun. As long as the monkey gets enough current it keeps running. The lab PSU provides sufficient current (very low internal resistance) even at low voltages. A battery can't do that, because its internal resistance is higher and also increases during discharge. The problem with measuring the battery's cut off voltage is that the voltage breaks down with the high load current and the batterry's internal resistance. Since you can't measure the battery's voltage before the internal resistance, they use the batteries until the monkey stops and than measure the batteries' voltage unloaded, i.e. neglecting the internal resistance (DMM is a tiny load causing a very low voltage drop on the internal resistance).

That would explain the high(er) cut off voltages, they are claiming. But that measurement of the cut off voltage is only valid for a specific battery A from vendor B and should be repeated several times to get some average value to cope with differences between the batteries. And what about other battery types and vendors? This method doesn't make any sense. The only thing you get from this is how long the monkey would run with a specific battery.

Any effect on the Batteriser? When the batteries are so discharged that they can't deliver enough current for the monkey anymore, how could they possibly deliver even more current for a boost converter? The monkey video is actually a good example how Batteriser would fail.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 08:32:14 pm
I just stumbled across this

He claims 1.5A output current.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 19, 2015, 08:32:28 pm
...This is utterly stunning coming from a PhD EE, professor, very experienced designer in the power industry, and someone who's spent 5 years developing a battery boost converter.
Is this PhD stuff and other degrees proven? Where did he buy it? Is it possible the guy' identity is stolen and used? Is there only one Bob Roohpavar? ...

But I heard similar stuff before from an Master Electrical Engineer, turned out he had always worked in the sales department of a distributor.
He said he worked there in what they called the research department but the only thing they did is research the manuals to give the customers some sales info.
They said to be very-close to real-engineering, (yes one time a year for evaluation) till all the way up in management and production (to ask when the items will be delivered)

 
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 08:39:42 pm
Since you can't measure the battery's voltage before the internal resistance, they use the batteries until the monkey stops and than measure the batteries' voltage unloaded

The point is they could have, and should have, measured the battery voltage under load inside the money. If they did that, they would have found that the monkey would have stopped working at exactly the same voltage as what the PSU did.

Quote
That would explain the high(er) cut off voltages, they are claiming. But that measurement of the cut off voltage is only valid for a specific battery A from vendor B and should be repeated several times to get some average value to cope with differences between the batteries. And what about other battery types and vendors? This method doesn't make any sense.

It makes zero sense.
The batteries I used in my low current discharge testing all the way to zero volts are back up to over 1V now. They will only power a few 10's of mA for a little while at this point, as there is barely any juice left in the batteries. Put them in the monkey and they'd do nothing of course. I'm in two minds about whether to do a video showing this.

Quote
Any effect on the Batteriser? When the batteries are so discharged that they can't deliver enough current for the monkey anymore, how could they possibly deliver even more current for a boost converter? The monkey video is actually a good example how Batteriser would fail.

Bingo!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 08:42:59 pm
Is this PhD stuff and other degrees proven? Where did he buy it? Is it possible the guy' identity is stolen and used? Is there only one Bob Roohpavar? ...

Yes. No one doubts his credentials as there is no reason to.
Not uncommon for people with such a high qualifications to be clueless about practical stuff, just like anyone else is capable of getting it wrong, especially when they are so invested in it and truly believe in it.
It's like Nobel prize winnings scientists who are creationists. Or the Solar Roadways guy who has a masters in EE.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: axel15 on August 19, 2015, 09:08:16 pm
Enough words Bob. If your theory is proven in practice, just send one unit to Dave (or any other reliable person) and lets verify it! Or... you could start by putting Batteriser into that clapping monkey after batteries have run out. It should keep on clapping 8 times longer than the initial stage without batteriser... right?

Axel.

(and yes... this comment was deliberately pointed to Bob using EEVblog forum)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 19, 2015, 09:24:12 pm
Anyone else here worked 5 years to "develop" or "invent" something?

I mean like really working on it, not only the saturday mornings or only on hollidays.
And 5 years for the first prototype, not during 5 years on continuous improvements on working devices.
Only on the technical/development/prototype side, not on installing a production plant for it in China, or lobbying/public image/marketing/publicity movies.

Really, 5 years?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 19, 2015, 09:24:23 pm
Yes. No one doubts his credentials as there is no reason to.
Not uncommon for people with such a high qualifications to be clueless about practical stuff, just like anyone else is capable of getting it wrong, especially when they are so invested in it and truly believe in it.
It's like Nobel prize winnings scientists who are creationists.
I'm not buying that.

Nobody who's capable of designing the batteriser can believe the "8x" claim.

The person who scripted/shot the monkey video can't possibly have not thought of putting the batteriser in the monkey.

etc.

This is deliberate fraud.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 19, 2015, 09:33:33 pm
Open letter to Bob (we know you read this):

Why can't you:

a) Put the batteriser onto two batteries that don't work in the monkey (eg. the ones you used in the video). Show us the monkey moving afterwards.

b) Put two identical devices side by side. One with batterizer, one without. Film the setup until one of them shuts down. Use flashlights, monkeys, GPS units, whatever you want. (nb. With GPS or similar we'll want to see the battery selection settings).

No shenanigans. Just film the process openly from start to finish.

They're two very easy, obvious tests. Either one of them will go a long way towards silencing every critic on the planet.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 19, 2015, 09:48:16 pm

They're two very easy, obvious tests. Either one of them will go a long way towards silencing every critic on the planet.

Because that's impossible...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Joule Thief on August 19, 2015, 09:55:22 pm
I just stumbled across this

He claims 1.5A output current.

that notion was mentioned
maybe not so much a performance claim but a brief allusion to a "we need and would be nice to have" eyes closed, fingers crosses, tongue at the right angle hope and dream

Just as an aside, if you really want to develop critical listening skills and fine tune your BS sensor, watch home shopping networks. I heard a gentleman selling a vegetable slicer and dicer
say if I use his product, it will cut a cucumber so thin the one cucumber WILL LAST A WHOLE YEAR! This was immediately followed by the woman who was selling portable device power "sticks" to power smartphones, IPads, etc for a few more hours. The one point she emphasized was to buy TWO sticks and .....wait for it .... recharge the first stick with the second stick to keep your smart phone going thru the rest of your vacation day and not miss one picture taking opportunity.  :palm:

I just don't get lathered up about these devices or protecting the innocent from purchasing them. If it's not the Batteriser, it will be the vegetable slicer.

I can't save them all Clarise.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on August 19, 2015, 09:56:08 pm
It is quite surprising that, with all the credentials of the batteriser guys, their EE knowledge are dubious for that they can't, at least in theory, properly argue the roll of internal resistance of a battery to their advantage: It is all about impedence matching for delivering a max power.

That is,  consider a voltage source with a serial resistor (V and Ri). The max power such a setup can deliver is when the load has  an equal resistance (impedence) as Ri. At the max power the load receives a voltage = V/2.

Now, if V/2 (e.g. 0.75V) is too low to have the load work properly, but the max power is just about high enough for the load to work, a converter is the way to solve the problem.

Then, in practice, too many factors are ignored from such an ideal model. Only real benchmarks can prove or disprove the claims.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on August 19, 2015, 10:47:07 pm
Hi,

Onlooker has a great point. Lets do the math:

I would estimate as follows for brand name AA.

(SOC = state of charge)

At 50% SOC

V= 1.4, Battery ESR = 0.3 Ohms

Maximum Power Theorem, gives max power in load as

(V/2)2 / ESR = 1.6W

If you allow a conversion efficiency of 85% in the Batteriser

Max current at 50% SOC is 1.6W x 0.85/1.5V = 0.9A


At 20% SOC

V= 1V, ESR =0.6 Ohm

(V/2)2 / ESR = 0.42W

If you allow a conversion efficiency of 85% in the Batteriser

Max current at 50% SOC is 0.42W x 0.85/1.5V = 0.24A


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B



Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on August 19, 2015, 11:06:24 pm
It is quite surprising that, with all the credentials of the batteriser guys, their EE knowledge are dubious for that they can't, at least in theory, properly argue the roll of internal resistance

For all we know the main fraudster could of been thrown out of Broadcom when they started getting ready for the merger and someone with a clue finally had a talk with him.

I just checked on their PSU "debunking" video, 1140 thumbs down  :-DD

1,141 now...

better to click more / report / spam or misleading / report as SCAM
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 20, 2015, 01:02:10 am
Enough words Bob. If your theory is proven in practice, just send one unit to Dave (or any other reliable person) and lets verify it! Or... you could start by putting Batteriser into that clapping monkey after batteries have run out. It should keep on clapping 8 times longer than the initial stage without batteriser... right?

Axel.

(and yes... this comment was deliberately pointed to Bob using EEVblog forum)
I bet they would put brand new batteries in.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 20, 2015, 02:22:22 am
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=166163)

Good Morning Dr. Roohparvar!

I am so sorry to hear that your retail channels have abandoned you at this critical juncture.

Now, regarding your apparent transformation into a DOD supplier, we'll need to do a little brushing up on your Latin vocabulary. There are two words that will be critical to your future:

Qui Tam

You should talk long and hard with your attorney before selling a product to the U.S. Government with the claims you are making. You might be very unhappy with the outcome.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on August 20, 2015, 04:42:31 am
Maker of Useless Dowsing Rod for Bombs Convicted for Fraud

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/04/29/dowsing_for_bombs_maker_of_useless_bomb_detectors_convicted_of_fraud.html (http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/04/29/dowsing_for_bombs_maker_of_useless_bomb_detectors_convicted_of_fraud.html)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: axel15 on August 20, 2015, 05:43:48 am
Enough words Bob. If your theory is proven in practice, just send one unit to Dave (or any other reliable person) and lets verify it! Or... you could start by putting Batteriser into that clapping monkey after batteries have run out. It should keep on clapping 8 times longer than the initial stage without batteriser... right?

I bet they would put brand new batteries in.

Yep, or some other trick IMHO.
Anyhow, even if this debate is fun to follow, I would like to see some actual evidences already. Bob, if you were able to bend physical laws by creating such device, prove it. And... by proving I mean demovideo with and without Batteriser. Not verbal slideshow or twin girls rapping on video or anything braindead like that. Clapping monkey with and without Batteriser is my request.

As my honest personal opinion, that video would be shown many times already if it really works. After 5 years of development they must have quite many prototypes already.

This is either a hoax or "N Ray" effect. Sorry investors...

Axel.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 20, 2015, 07:48:16 am
Something I've only just realised...

They're flogging these off as being for AAA, AA, C and D cells.... but have only ever shown the AA version in use...

The problem here, is that a AAA battery has about half the area available for a boost regulator, compared to a AA...

There is no chance of fitting a boost regulator on the top of a AAA cell, and yet, they've been selling AAA butterisers  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 20, 2015, 08:00:23 am
The problem here, is that a AAA battery has about half the area available for a boost regulator, compared to a AA...
There is no chance of fitting a boost regulator on the top of a AAA cell, and yet, they've been selling AAA butterisers  :palm:


I've been wondering that too, but have been willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
The issue is that unless all the specs are designed around the AAA physical build size, and that's unlikely given the lack of prototypes, the AA version will have better performance. They aren't telling you what the performance of each size device is.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Stephan_T on August 20, 2015, 08:22:12 am

They're two very easy, obvious tests. Either one of them will go a long way towards silencing every critic on the planet.

Because that's impossible...

Can you imagine how dangerous a Monkey at 800% will be?  >:D
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 20, 2015, 08:31:12 am

One device I looked at, had about 0.25mm clearance above the AAA cells...

How many devices will the butteriser not even physically fit in?

What's the physically smallest 1.5 amp inductor available? Or even 500ma for that matter?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 20, 2015, 09:11:36 am
I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the Batteriser on a miniaturization argument. Even if these guys don't have the skills personally, they surely know people who do. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on August 20, 2015, 04:41:48 pm

One device I looked at, had about 0.25mm clearance above the AAA cells...

How many devices will the butteriser not even physically fit in?

What's the physically smallest 1.5 amp inductor available? Or even 500ma for that matter?
In my Garmin GPSmap 62st it is already a tight fit with normal AA's so adding the batteriser will probably cause problems.
I even had trouble fitting some NiMH batteries because they tend to be slightly longer, Eneloops just fit in it without any room to spare.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 20, 2015, 05:10:50 pm

One device I looked at, had about 0.25mm clearance above the AAA cells...

How many devices will the butteriser not even physically fit in?

What's the physically smallest 1.5 amp inductor available? Or even 500ma for that matter?
In my Garmin GPSmap 62st it is already a tight fit with normal AA's so adding the batteriser will probably cause problems.
I even had trouble fitting some NiMH batteries because they tend to be slightly longer, Eneloops just fit in it without any room to spare.

Perhaps this is why they tested their GPS, with the batteries in a holder... claiming it was to measure current (which wasn't needing, and was basically a pointless measurement) and voltage, but then never even posting the voltage results...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on August 20, 2015, 05:27:56 pm
I am going to do a quick check with batteries to see when my Garmin cuts out. I don't have a accurate power supply so I can't test it like that.
It normally runs for 15 to 20 hours on NiMH's.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 20, 2015, 07:26:11 pm
A reddit thread on the GPS test:
https://www.reddit.com/r/shittykickstarters/comments/3gygee/batteriser_5x_longer_life_than_normal_batteries/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/shittykickstarters/comments/3gygee/batteriser_5x_longer_life_than_normal_batteries/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 20, 2015, 07:59:51 pm
A reddit thread on the GPS test:
https://www.reddit.com/r/shittykickstarters/comments/3gygee/batteriser_5x_longer_life_than_normal_batteries/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/shittykickstarters/comments/3gygee/batteriser_5x_longer_life_than_normal_batteries/)

hah, I suspected the message was something along those lines, but couldn't find any reference to it online.

They should start a kickstarter campaign to buy themselves a shovel...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 20, 2015, 08:10:19 pm
Oh, I hadn't seen that one.

It actually says something about "NiMH" on screen when their GPS dies. Look in the video at 1:10.

Does anybody own the GPS unit to see the complete message?



Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 20, 2015, 08:14:38 pm
It says "Use rechargable Nimh or *****? batteries to prevent this limitation"

I have no clue what the first few lines say though.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 20, 2015, 08:21:05 pm
This seem to confirm that the GPS is set to the alkaline option. Also it shows that it was just an info message, and they should continue the "experiment".

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 20, 2015, 08:24:35 pm
This seem to confirm that the GPS is set to the alkaline option. Also it shows that it was just an info message, and they should continue the "experiment".

Alexander.

I do believe you're right... and when the battery voltage was artificially boosted, the info message simply never appeared as the gps wasn't monitoring the actual battery voltage  :--
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 20, 2015, 08:34:17 pm
The software detected a "stupid" user that was continuously touching the screen and notified him. I doubt that the message came up for first time after two hours...

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 20, 2015, 08:41:52 pm
The software detected a "stupid" user that was continuously touching the screen and notified him. I doubt that the message came up for first time after two hours...

So is that why they went to all the trouble of building a finger instead of just going to the menu and selecting "don't sleep".   :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 20, 2015, 08:48:08 pm
"The data shows that the gps will stop functioning after one hour and 52 minutes, and the screen dims to dark"

That isn't them saying the batteries are flat....
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on August 20, 2015, 09:09:07 pm
http://forums.mtbr.com/gps-hrm-bike-computer/rechargeable-batteries-will-keep-my-oregons-screen-bright-681088.html (http://forums.mtbr.com/gps-hrm-bike-computer/rechargeable-batteries-will-keep-my-oregons-screen-bright-681088.html)

Quote
In the settings menu switch the battery type to Ni-mh. If you have it set for Alkaline the screen will dim when battery level reaches a certain point. As long as you have it set to Ni-mh the screen will stay bright until the batteries' bitter end, even if you are using alkalines.

The Oregon is a slightly bigger version of this thing.
So apparently in order to get the most use out of alkalines the device actually limits the brightness of the screen. That also explains why it crapped out at about 10 hours with Batteriser installed, Garmin figured the device wouldn't come near the advertised operating time with alkalines.  This also proves the device was also set to alkaline mode. So another fabricated piece of bullshit by Batteriser, the device never stopped working, just the screen dimmed, completely as designed.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 20, 2015, 09:12:17 pm
This totally makes sense.

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 20, 2015, 09:39:20 pm
So apparently in order to get the most use out of alkalines the device actually limits the brightness of the screen. That also explains why it crapped out at about 10 hours with Batteriser installed, Garmin figured the device wouldn't come near the advertised operating time with alkalines.  This also proves the device was also set to alkaline mode. So another fabricated piece of bullshit by Batteriser, the device never stopped working, just the screen dimmed, completely as designed.

More Batteriser testing FAIL.
Can they not get anything right? This isn't rocket science.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 20, 2015, 09:46:08 pm
"The data shows that the gps will stop functioning after one hour and 52 minutes, and the screen dims to dark"

That isn't them saying the batteries are flat....
But "stop functioning" is a lie, n'est pas?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 20, 2015, 10:09:14 pm
I dig through the Approach G5's firmware. The message is:

"The battery power is too low for full backlight. Use rechargeable NiMH or lithium batteries to prevent this limitation."

(http://i.imgur.com/jLWS4dp.png)

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 20, 2015, 10:14:17 pm
I dig through the Approach G5's firmware. The message is:
"The battery power is too low for full backlight. Use rechargeable NiMH or lithium batteries to prevent this limitation."

That seems to confirm they have screwed up this test completely. It didn't actually stop working. FAIL.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 20, 2015, 10:31:15 pm
I dig through the Approach G5's firmware. The message is:

"The battery power is too low for full backlight. Use rechargeable NiMH or lithium batteries to prevent this limitation."

Next question is: Do you actually have to keep prodding the screen to keep it at "full" brightness?

If so, that explains the finger. The finger makes no sense otherwise.

(It would also show the sheer deviousness of the batteroo people to try and show something lasting "many times longer")

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on August 20, 2015, 10:47:58 pm
So apparently in order to get the most use out of alkalines the device actually limits the brightness of the screen. That also explains why it crapped out at about 10 hours with Batteriser installed, Garmin figured the device wouldn't come near the advertised operating time with alkalines.  This also proves the device was also set to alkaline mode. So another fabricated piece of bullshit by Batteriser, the device never stopped working, just the screen dimmed, completely as designed.

More Batteriser testing FAIL.
Can they not get anything right? This isn't rocket science.

... this leads to the logical conclusion, that the whole story is a deliberate deception. It's simply too much nonsense to be considered as lack of experience and knowledge. In a few cases of badly designed devices/gadgets/toys Batteriser might help a little bit, but anything else is just hot air.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 20, 2015, 10:56:06 pm
... this leads to the logical conclusion, that the whole story is a deliberate deception. It's simply too much nonsense to be considered as lack of experience and knowledge. In a few cases of badly designed devices/gadgets/toys Batteriser might help a little bit, but anything else is just hot air.
Would be really interesting to test the batteriser. In the FAQ they claim "the Batteriser sleeve is designed to deliver as much current as a battery is able to supply to the device". Good luck with that in this small form factor with the near short circuit current of an AA battery for a high power device. It will glow nice red if the boost converter isn't really high efficient >:D
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 20, 2015, 10:58:47 pm
More Batteriser testing FAIL.
Can they not get anything right? This isn't rocket science.

Why expect that from a bunch of guys calling themselves PhD, who express energy in volt and clearly do not know how to use %.
What's next? Expressing time in kilogram?


Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on August 20, 2015, 11:44:52 pm
Quote
(It would also show the sheer deviousness of the batteroo people to try and show something lasting "many times longer")
According to Google, "The battery power is too low for full backlight." message has never before appeared on the Internet, and this might be the first mention of it.

If someone who has this unit could make it display that message and show a picture of it side-by-side with the one in the video, we'll have some pretty convincing proof. The fact that it's in the firmware might not be as convincing as others.  Now anyone who has a YT account can post that message on the Batteriser video, or make their own debunking...

Quote
... this leads to the logical conclusion, that the whole story is a deliberate deception. It's simply too much nonsense to be considered as lack of experience and knowledge. In a few cases of badly designed devices/gadgets/toys Batteriser might help a little bit, but anything else is just hot air.
Agreed.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 20, 2015, 11:49:13 pm
There is another string in the firmware.

"Batteries Too Low For Backlight"

So there was another voltage step that would disable the backlight. It seems to me that the unit would function for more time by just pressing ok.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: fcb on August 21, 2015, 12:22:16 am
So the product is debunked.  Their claims are poorly researched at best.  They look like they are using shills on all levels.

"Batteriser" (wonder why they haven't used a Z as they are from the US?) looks like it will raise a substantial amount of money.

So what? They haven't got a business as pretty soon after delivery some of the other magazines/blogs/vlogs out there will comprehensively test the product (assuming it gets delivered) - most likely they will be nursing a hefty loss and huge reputational damage.

And no VC in their right mind is going to fund them - even a small amount of due diligence on the Batteriser will find this thread.

Job done Dave, can we go back to some great teardowns, the uSupply and mailbags - even the postcards FFS.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 21, 2015, 12:28:15 am
Job done Dave, can we go back to some great teardowns, the uSupply and mailbags - even the postcards FFS.
Nobody's forcing you to read this thread. It's fun finding new flaws in their arguments (doubly so when you can use screenshots from their own videos to damn them).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: fcb on August 21, 2015, 12:34:14 am
Job done Dave, can we go back to some great teardowns, the uSupply and mailbags - even the postcards FFS.
Nobody's forcing you to read this thread. It's fun finding new flaws in their arguments (doubly so when you can use screenshots from their own videos to damn them).
Damn it! I just read your reply.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 21, 2015, 12:59:00 am

And no VC in their right mind is going to fund them -

SK Telecom already did. Up to $1MM USD. Now they're trying get money out of the Department of Defense.

This is a problem. It needs to stop. It's a discredit to the profession. The Roohparvar brothers are the collective Dr. Oz of electrical engineering.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 21, 2015, 01:02:10 am

And no VC in their right mind is going to fund them -

SK Telecom already did. Up to $1MM USD.
Citations...?

Edit: Don't worry, I found it - google is my friend.

Edit2: And that was back in March. This is more proof that the $30,000 IndieGoGo thing is only being done for nefarious reasons.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 21, 2015, 06:12:43 am
Bob,

When you get back from lunch, you have some deleting to do...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 21, 2015, 06:44:17 am
Wow. That was quick. Yeoman's work there, Bob.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 21, 2015, 06:53:23 am
"The data shows that the gps will stop functioning after one hour and 52 minutes, and the screen dims to dark"

That isn't them saying the batteries are flat....
But "stop functioning" is a lie, n'est pas?

Ah, but it did "stop functioning" till the "ok" button was pressed.... they didn't claim the batteries to be fully depleted, or that they'd reached the cut off voltage of the device...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 21, 2015, 07:00:20 am
About the golf GPS test,
First of all: yes I know I was wrong thinking this was a Dakota at the wrong battery setting at first,but before drawing more wrong conclusions I think we have to look a little closer:

1) GPS devices don't like to be inside
It's very hard to get a 'fix' when inside a building, and for the older generation receivers it's nearly impossible. During this search the receiver will probably be more power hungry.
A 'cold fix' takes even longer since it has to gather the almanac data first before being able to calculate it's position. So whatever time the Garmin can run on a set of batteries in this test, it's not 1:1 comparable with real live experience.

2) About the finger:
Knowing Garmin software, the device could ask "Are you indoors?" or something like that after a minute or so without reception. I think they need this force the GPS receiver to stay active

3) Look at the current graph again that they gave us:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=166544;image)
It's clearly switching to some powersaving mode after 1.5 hours. It also looks as if it goes from constant current to constant current (or the voltage didn't drop anymore.) But they did leave it running for a while after it switched mode.

4)
Running at full power for 10 hours with the batteriser against only 1.5 or 2 hours without is still a huge plus for the batteriser IMHO. ->Which is for me is a big reason to believe something else/something more is going on.

But at the end it isjust a waste of time speculating how the got their nice results. Only independent tests can tell what the batteriser (or just the technology)  is capable off. And the fact we don't see that should say enough.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 21, 2015, 07:21:54 am
Check out the blog thing on their Youtube channel!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A)

Quote
"Pls stand by we are in a process of releasing a video with the technical explanation for all engineers on how Batteriser works, while at first glance, it seems implausible, I am sure that real genuine engineers will appreciate our whiteboard technical discussions along with simulation, data matching battery companies spec sheets, in conjunction with device data. Of course, those whose revenue will be reduced by our technology will do everything to divert attention"

I wonder if it will be released before or after the end of their IndieGoGo campaign.  :popcorn:
Probably short before the campaign ends, long enough so most last doubters will see it, but short enough to not give anyone time to make a reaction video.
I guess we will see a video in which nothing will really be explained. They will admit that the critics are very smart, but the Roohparvar's will look much smarter, and that shall be enough to proof the batteriser works.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on August 21, 2015, 08:11:54 am
This has probably been said before, has anyone taken an off the shelf boost converter and running side by side tests on some batteries and showing the results.  With known numbers like the off the shelf boost converter's efficiency it should correlate to the type of effects the batteriser would have on stuff.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 21, 2015, 08:28:37 am
And no VC in their right mind is going to fund them -
SK Telecom already did. Up to $1MM USD.
Citations...?
Edit: Don't worry, I found it - google is my friend.
Edit2: And that was back in March. This is more proof that the $30,000 IndieGoGo thing is only being done for nefarious reasons.

Yes, they got that VC funding back March, before this thing hit the fan with the infamous PC World article on June 1st.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on August 21, 2015, 02:41:03 pm
This is a problem. It needs to stop. It's a discredit to the profession. The Roohparvar brothers are the collective Dr. Oz of electrical engineering.
I was thinking 'the Richard Simmons' of Elec Eng...!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 21, 2015, 08:34:00 pm
whatever time the Garmin can run on a set of batteries in this test, it's not 1:1 comparable with real live experience.
Correct, but that's not what's being measured here.

2) About the finger:
Knowing Garmin software, the device could ask "Are you indoors?" or something like that after a minute or so without reception. I think they need this force the GPS receiver to stay active
Yep, the finger is very suspicious here. Obviously part of the cheat in some way.


4) Running at full power for 10 hours with the batteriser against only 1.5 or 2 hours without is still a huge plus for the batteriser IMHO. ->Which is for me is a big reason to believe something else/something more is going on.
Well...it would be if they weren't cheating.

But they are.

But at the end it isjust a waste of time speculating how the got their nice results.
No it isn't.

Only independent tests can tell what the batteriser (or just the technology)  is capable off. And the fact we don't see that should say enough.
Nope. Anybody can prove that battery powered devices generally use up at least 80% of the power in the battery. The other 10-20% is usually left there for a reason (eg. fully discharging rechargeables is bad for them).

Your statement would be valid if Batteriser were claiming 10-20% more, but they aren't.

(And the batteriser isn't 100% efficient so it's much more more likely to be 10-20% less on most devices)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 21, 2015, 08:45:12 pm
Yes, they got that VC funding back March, before this thing hit the fan with the infamous PC World article on June 1st.
I can't find the $1 million figure anywhere but if it's true it's just more proof that the whole IndieGoGo thing is just part of a bigger scam.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 21, 2015, 09:34:01 pm
What I really like with their demonstrations videos is the

"Look we made that fancy setup, and do that test"
"Here the results"

No time-lapse, no chronometer, watch or whatever to show the time elapsed, nothing at all but just bare results.

The light box, their 60 vs 20 could be after 10hours without their stuff, and the 60 vs 60 with their stuff could be done 5 min after the beginning of the test, and they didn't even give after how many time it stoped working, and for the setup without any batterastuff.

We even didn't see them taking a fresh battery from the packaging and put them in the holder, such a demonstration video should be done without any cut at all, maybe in fastforward, but without any cuts.

BTW they didn't put any data from they fancy lumen detector that store logged data on a nice SD card?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 21, 2015, 09:57:52 pm
But at the end it isjust a waste of time speculating how the got their nice results.
No it isn't.

The thing that their claim of 800% is just BS. We don't have to argue about that. And I'm pretty sure that there's really nothing to gain on this Garmin device.
But they can't put out any proof were the they gain less then even a ridicules 400% now can they? So whatever they will show us, they will cheat in it. And I really don't care about how they cheat. Speculating about it just gives them a good laugh, and something to react on.
Remember that these are the people that discovered that 'Powersupplies are not Batteries!'.

Also their invention is not about boost converters, Bob said so himself.

All this discussion about the performance of the converter is just distracting from what this project is really about:
Can you even make a 1.5A or even 500mA  boost converter working at 1.5V and less with a decent efficiency in the tiny space that they have?
Let's see that working first.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 21, 2015, 10:20:09 pm

Can you even make a 1.5A or even 500mA  boost converter working at 1.5V and less with a decent efficiency in the tiny space that they have?
Let's see that working first.

I think no...

Looking at a few devices, they seem to have about 0.5mm of extra clearance provided by compressing the spring more, this will cater for the 0.5mm stainless steel sleeve.... But there's no clearance on the positive terminal to fit the boost converter, as most devices with cells positioned side by side, will have plastic tabs to retain the terminals...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 21, 2015, 10:36:58 pm
Nope. Anybody can prove that battery powered devices generally use up at least 80% of the power in the battery.

The funny thing is that Batteriser do admit this!
They admit in their FAQ (and previously on their home page before removing it) that most products cutout voltage is 1.1V under load.
They have nothing left to stand on after doing that, nothing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on August 21, 2015, 10:46:25 pm

Can you even make a 1.5A or even 500mA  boost converter working at 1.5V and less with a decent efficiency in the tiny space that they have?
Let's see that working first.

I think no...

Looking at a few devices, they seem to have about 0.5mm of extra clearance provided by compressing the spring more, this will cater for the 0.5mm stainless steel sleeve.... But there's no clearance on the positive terminal to fit the boost converter, as most devices with cells positioned side by side, will have plastic tabs to retain the terminals...
They have at least 1.0mm. If you look at their pictures, they have a pcb above the positive cap. The cap has a height of at least 1.0mm. It looks like they have fitted the circuit into this space.
But this also means, the new battery will be at least 1mm longer than the original one.
The available area for all parts is no more than 125mm² and the volume less than 125mm³.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 21, 2015, 10:51:42 pm

They have at least 1.0mm. If you look at their pictures, they have a pcb above the positive cap. The cap has a height of at least 1.0mm. It looks like they have fitted the circuit into this space.
But this also means, the new battery will be at least 1mm longer than the original one.
The available area for all parts is no more than 125mm² and the volume less than 125mm³.

They can make it 1mm longer, but that won't physically fit into many devices...

Edit: you'll also have about half that area for a AAA cell...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on August 21, 2015, 10:58:41 pm
Can you even make a 1.5A or even 500mA  boost converter working at 1.5V and less with a decent efficiency in the tiny space that they have?
Let's see that working first.
Can you make a really tiny boost converter? Yes. Will the efficiency be any good? No. On-chip inductors exist but the inductance is tiny and the switching frequencies need to be >100MHz.

http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~wonyoung/wkim_jssc12.pdf (http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~wonyoung/wkim_jssc12.pdf)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on August 21, 2015, 11:08:18 pm
Can you even make a 1.5A or even 500mA  boost converter working at 1.5V and less with a decent efficiency in the tiny space that they have?
Let's see that working first.
Can you make a really tiny boost converter? Yes. Will the efficiency be any good? No. On-chip inductors exist but the inductance is tiny and the switching frequencies need to be >100MHz.

http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~wonyoung/wkim_jssc12.pdf (http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~wonyoung/wkim_jssc12.pdf)

making it is a solved problem (satellites), doesnt change the fact its a SCAM that does nothing for consumers/products
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 22, 2015, 12:54:24 am
I have a friend who is a design engineer at Garmin, I want to see if we can get him to chime in about that GPS video. This will hilarious. :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on August 22, 2015, 01:17:41 am
Can you even make a 1.5A or even 500mA  boost converter working at 1.5V and less with a decent efficiency in the tiny space that they have?
Let's see that working first.
Can you make a really tiny boost converter? Yes. Will the efficiency be any good? No. On-chip inductors exist but the inductance is tiny and the switching frequencies need to be >100MHz.

http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~wonyoung/wkim_jssc12.pdf (http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~wonyoung/wkim_jssc12.pdf)

I wouldn't consider an on-chip inductor but rather an inductor in the flex-PCB between the two battery contacts. There's lots of challenges in making that efficient, especially sandwiched between the metal case of the battery and the metal strip of the batteriser, but then they've had 5 years to do it right? ;)

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=1581833 (http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=1581833) (a much smaller inductor than needed in this case, but they've got quite a lot of area to play with along the sides of the battery).
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 22, 2015, 01:41:54 am
I have a friend who is a design engineer at Garmin, I want to see if we can get him to chime in about that GPS video. This will hilarious. :popcorn:
If he can confirm that the voltage cutout levels are the same and confirm the presence of a boost converter, that would be fantastic.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hugoneus on August 22, 2015, 01:54:47 am
I did a video a while back on energy harvesting ICs. I did a few experiment including collecting energy from melting ice cubes to charge my cell phone for 30 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrELRVFEx_s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrELRVFEx_s)

Those energy harvesting ICs can really drain batteries to the last drop. If I get the time I can try and see how much longer I can run something like a computer mouse or keyboard using those ICs.

Of course what matters is how much longer in relative to the overall life of the battery. If a single battery can run my mouse for 3 months and I can get an extra 1 day use, that simply is not worth it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 22, 2015, 02:00:31 am
Only in occasions you can't leave the place you are in order to buy a fresh battery. Like night time.

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on August 22, 2015, 02:22:02 am
I did a video a while back on energy harvesting ICs. I did a few experiment including collecting energy from melting ice cubes to charge my cell phone for 30 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrELRVFEx_s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrELRVFEx_s)

Those energy harvesting ICs can really drain batteries to the last drop. If I get the time I can try and see how much longer I can run something like a computer mouse or keyboard using those ICs.

Of course what matters is how much longer in relative to the overall life of the battery. If a single battery can run my mouse for 3 months and I can get an extra 1 day use, that simply is not worth it.
But those things require a big storage capacitor. If you want to store a substantial amount of energy you need a huge capacitor, that just won't fit (I already doubt the  current Batteriser design fits in most devices anyway).
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hugoneus on August 22, 2015, 02:37:14 am

But those things require a big storage capacitor. If you want to store a substantial amount of energy you need a huge capacitor, that just won't fit (I already doubt the  current Batteriser design fits in most devices anyway).

Only if you need to draw a large amount of current instantly once the DUT is turned on. You can run it without capacitors at lower currents (< 300mA). Of course the source needs to be able to deliver the needed current (at lower voltages but same same power times (1/efficiency)).
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rs20 on August 22, 2015, 09:07:15 am
Those energy harvesting ICs can really drain batteries to the last drop. If I get the time I can try and see how much longer I can run something like a computer mouse or keyboard using those ICs.

That would be very interesting; even the most perfect energy harvesting IC can't overcome the fact that a near-dead battery has a very big ESR and therefore has a hard limit on how much power can be delivered. Put another way, if the keyboard draws power in bursts (and obviously it will), you'd really want that capacitor mentioned earlier; the capacitor provides the bursts of power; and the IC is pulling current out of the battery at a continuous, tiny current to keep I^2R down. Would be interesting to compare the longevity of the device with no output cap vs with the output cap -- does the ESR rise so rapidly that the output cap doesn't help for long, or does it make a big difference. Does just adding a capacitor to the naked battery make a bigger difference than the harvesting IC (I have my doubts)? Etc...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 22, 2015, 08:36:33 pm
Does just adding a capacitor to the naked battery make a bigger difference than the harvesting IC (I have my doubts)? Etc...

TI wrote a white paper on the difference a capacitor makes to a battery:

http://www.ti.com/lit/wp/swra349/swra349.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/wp/swra349/swra349.pdf)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on August 22, 2015, 09:34:43 pm
With remote controls the capacitor, even 22uF, will make a big difference. I add them to remote fobs, and they will operate even with a battery that does not even light the LED on an unmodified unit, though the drawback is they will fail fast once the remote shows low battery.

With IR remotes a 100uF 6V3 SMD capacitor added across the terminals means a battery set will last for years, as opposed to under 2 years, even with the cheapest non alkaline regular zinc carbon cells from the shop.

Even on a wall clock it helps, though with the new continuous motion clocks they still eat a battery a month. I got tired of doing it, so converted to run off a SLA cell that provides phone back up.  just added a 1000uF 10V capacitor ( old PC power supply that also donated the red LED and the SOT current limiting resistors) to handle those pulses. LED runs at 1V4, and barely glows. Even though the capacitor is CrapXon, and probably sky high ESR wise ( Did't test it, it was somewhat faded but not bulging or leaking, trhough the PSU was not happy at all) it works in this non demanding application.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on August 22, 2015, 10:51:10 pm
With remote controls the capacitor, even 22uF, will make a big difference. I add them to remote fobs, and they will operate even with a battery that does not even light the LED on an unmodified unit, though the drawback is they will fail fast once the remote shows low battery.

With IR remotes a 100uF 6V3 SMD capacitor added across the terminals means a battery set will last for years, as opposed to under 2 years, even with the cheapest non alkaline regular zinc carbon cells from the shop.

I guess using a bench power supply to test the battery cut of voltage isn't going to give an accurate result then, as a bench PS already has that very low output impedance, sometimes (often) accomplished with a large internal capacitor in parallel with the output terminals, which in this case is the same as the IR remote battery terminals. And this is (sort of) what Batteroo claims when saying PS's are not the same as batteries.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 22, 2015, 11:15:48 pm
And this is (sort of) what Batteroo claims when saying PS's are not the same as batteries.
Nope, that wasn't what they were claiming at all.

However: It will probably be what they start claiming three days from now, right after they read your post.

PS: It will be a fail because electronics engineers actually know about capacitors (and often put them in battery powered devices!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 22, 2015, 11:27:50 pm
I guess using a bench power supply to test the battery cut of voltage isn't going to give an accurate result then, as a bench PS already has that very low output impedance, sometimes (often) accomplished with a large internal capacitor in parallel with the output terminals,

Actually, it's the opposite.
The goal of a good lab PSU design is to minimise the output capacitance so that when it goes into constant current mode the output capacitance is able to supply as little peak current as possible.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 22, 2015, 11:29:19 pm
However: It will probably be what they start claiming three days from now, right after they read your post.

It's been rather amazing how things magically appear on their videos, comments and website after they appear here. Must be a coincidence  ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 23, 2015, 12:04:26 am
However: It will probably be what they start claiming three days from now, right after they read your post.

It's been rather amazing how things magically appear on their videos, comments and website after they appear here. Must be a coincidence  ::)
Have you seen this article?
http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)
It was posted on the GPS test video by youtube-batteriser himself, after some invisible commenter pissed him off.

This document is a study after wasted battery energy. 33% was wasted in this study, not 80.

They give reasons for why non-empty batteries are being disposed -> Non of them can be fixed with a batteriser..

Finally the show how to measured what energy is left in a battery: Measure the voltage While loading the battery with 10R or so!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on August 23, 2015, 01:25:01 am

Have you seen this article?
http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)
It was posted on the GPS test video by youtube-batteriser himself, after some invisible commenter pissed him off.

The interesting thing is that he claims that the paper backs up their 1.3V cut-off claims (I guess they are back to that higher number now), even though the only cut-off voltage claimed in the paper, as you (at least I think it was you) pointed out in your now deleted response, was 1.0V in the camera from 2001.  The only other possibility is that they think because batteries were thrown out with >1.3V (under load) left on them.  While true, they obviously can't draw the conclusion that those batteries were tossed because they fell below products' cut-off voltages, and more likely, as the paper pointed out, the users simply threw them out prematurely.

Here's what I predict will happen with this "product", assuming they do actually get it functioning at all:

The Indiegogo backers will receive their Batterisers.  Probably about 20-25% of them will fail within 2-3 batteries' worth of use.  The rest will go into devices like remote controls that will see almost no benefit from the Batteriser (in fact I think it the Batteriser will have a detrimental effect due to losses in the converter), but that won't matter because batteries already last a long time in those kinds of devices and nobody will actually be keeping track of how long they last compared to before.  And because they spent good money on the devices, they will convince themselves that they got so much more life out of their batteries.  A few devices may actually make it into old cameras (such as the one from 2001 mentioned in the above paper) that have a poorly designed battery management system that prematurely triggers the shut off mode (a camera I have appears to be such a poorly designed POS) and the Batteriser actually will extend the apparent life of those batteries, although probably by about 10-20% or so, nowhere near their claims.  Of course the meter reading on the camera will no longer function at all, so people will still resort to the bad habits stated in the paper of switching out the batteries--regardless of state-of-charge--before a weekend trip to make sure they have a fresh set.

Eventually the Batteriser will wind up on the home shopping channels or the overnight paid advertisements.  My mom will see them and buy me one for Christmas 2016 (because they buys all that crap she sees on TV), so in early 2017 I should be able to do my own scientific analysis of how crappy these things are in real-world practical devices that people actually use (and not clapping monkeys or old fashioned incandescent flashlights).

  ...Lance
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 23, 2015, 01:35:26 am
One of the giant logical fallacies of Brothers Roohparvar is equating human behavior with device design.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on August 23, 2015, 01:40:32 am
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteriser-battery-life-extender-launches-on-indiegogo-raises-more-than-300-percent-of-funding-goal-in-day-one-300120225.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteriser-battery-life-extender-launches-on-indiegogo-raises-more-than-300-percent-of-funding-goal-in-day-one-300120225.html)
Quote
raising more than 3x of its goal in the first 24 hours of the 30 day campaign and is now looking for support to increase this sum over and above 1 million dollars in the remaining 28 days of the campaign.

4 days left now and they're only up to about $260,000, seems a bit short, or will there be a race to the finishing line.


http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-names-three-new-members-to-its-board-of-directors-300131651.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-names-three-new-members-to-its-board-of-directors-300131651.html)
Quote
today announced that David Martin, Min Park and Bob Pavey have joined its Board of Directors to provide governance and oversight of the company
Quote
"As we move Batteroo forward from conceptual stage to one of production and market placement of our innovative Batteriser technology, it is important to have respected and experienced Board members ensuring this transition happens as smoothly as possible," said Frankie Roohparvar, inventor of the Batteriser technology and Batteroo's Chairman of the Board. "

Just some more marketing maneuvers. I guess.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 23, 2015, 03:02:37 am
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteriser-battery-life-extender-launches-on-indiegogo-raises-more-than-300-percent-of-funding-goal-in-day-one-300120225.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteriser-battery-life-extender-launches-on-indiegogo-raises-more-than-300-percent-of-funding-goal-in-day-one-300120225.html)
Quote
raising more than 3x of its goal in the first 24 hours of the 30 day campaign and is now looking for support to increase this sum over and above 1 million dollars in the remaining 28 days of the campaign.

4 days left now and they're only up to about $260,000, seems a bit short, or will there be a race to the finishing line.


http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-names-three-new-members-to-its-board-of-directors-300131651.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-names-three-new-members-to-its-board-of-directors-300131651.html)
Quote
today announced that David Martin, Min Park and Bob Pavey have joined its Board of Directors to provide governance and oversight of the company
Quote
"As we move Batteroo forward from conceptual stage to one of production and market placement of our innovative Batteriser technology, it is important to have respected and experienced Board members ensuring this transition happens as smoothly as possible," said Frankie Roohparvar, inventor of the Batteriser technology and Batteroo's Chairman of the Board. "

Just some more marketing maneuvers. I guess.

That is major news. SK is the VC backing Batteroo. They obviously want direct authority over how things are being run from here on out. 

Brothers Roohparvar clearly have lost credibility. You have to wonder if they aren't consider refunding everyone on Indiegogo and pulling the plug.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 23, 2015, 03:12:23 am
About the capacitor of the power supplies. I don;t believe that good designed power supplies will have any significant capacitance on the output. It would render the current limiting capability useless (upon connecting the load).

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 23, 2015, 03:12:45 am
And at this point, I'm not sure who's reading this if its Bob, Frankie, or Min Park, but it's also time to dispense with the "toxic battery" claim. Common alkaline batteries have not used mercury for a long time. Here is Duracell's statement on the matter:

Quote
Alkaline batteries can be safely disposed of with normal household waste. Never dispose of batteries in fire because they could explode.

Due to concerns about mercury in the municipal solid waste stream, we have voluntarily eliminated all of the added mercury from our alkaline batteries since 1993, while maintaining the performance you demand. Our alkaline batteries are composed primarily of common metals—steel, zinc, and manganese—and do not pose a health or environmental risk during normal use or disposal.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 23, 2015, 03:26:44 am
About the capacitor of the power supplies. I don;t believe that good designed power supplies will have any significant capacitance on the output. It would render the current limiting capability useless (upon connecting the load).

Alexander.

Yep, Dave gave a comment about that on the design of the Rigol DP832 if I remember correctly (or it was the Atten power supply? can't remember)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on August 23, 2015, 04:37:39 am
http://elektrotanya.com/hq_ps3003l_power-supply.pdf/download.html (http://elektrotanya.com/hq_ps3003l_power-supply.pdf/download.html)

I think this is the PSU used in Batteroo's monkey video, and it has a 470uF capacitor directly on the output terminals.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 23, 2015, 07:06:37 am
(at least I think it was you)
 
Yes that was me.

And my message is still there, but only I and 'BatteriserBatteroo' (-> I'm gonna call him YTBB from now on) can see my message. And only you and YTBB can see your messages. That is until YTBB makes our messages public, then everyone can see them. But by posting there we are now part of this conversation on Youtube, so that's why we get a copy of new messages in this thread on gmail, even though these messages are not made public by YTBB. At least so it seems - and I hope I explained it well. It's a bit weird this way, but it's Google, not much we can do about it. Let's wait if YTBB will respond on our comments.


The Indiegogo backers will receive their Batterisers.  Probably about 20-25% of them will fail within 2-3 batteries' worth of use.  The rest will go into devices like remote controls that will see almost no benefit from the Batteriser (in fact I think it the Batteriser will have a detrimental effect due to losses in the converter)
Don't forget the quiesent current of the batteriser. Putting the batteriser in a remote is a bad idea, I think Bob even said something this in an answer on IGG.

A few devices may actually make it into old cameras (such as the one from 2001 mentioned in the above paper) that have a poorly designed battery management system that prematurely triggers the shut off mode (a camera I have appears to be such a poorly designed POS) and the Batteriser actually will extend the apparent life of those batteries, although probably by about 10-20% or so
With 'poorly designed' you mean "not on par with 2015's technology" right? I mean I know the camera's from that era, and remember the horrible battery life you got on those with alkaline's. But that's the nature of the alkaline's with their relative high ESR. The camera has to be nice to NiMH cells as well, so it can't go below 1 Volt. The batteriser can load the alkaline's a bit more, so the voltage on the cell drop's down to 0.7V But by that time you are putting just as much power in the ESR as in your camera -> you heat up your batteries, and drain them twice as fast. But you will get to a point where the battery still has energy in it, but it cannot deliver it fast enough to power the camera.

nobody will actually be keeping track of how long they last compared to before.  And because they spent good money on the devices, they will convince themselves that they got so much more life out of their batteries.
That's my thought as well, although they might get annoyed eventually because their devices always die without any warning.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 23, 2015, 07:55:22 am
Finally the show how to measured what energy is left in a battery: Measure the voltage While loading the battery with 10R or so!

Of course. Every single engineer and hobbyist on the planet knows this, except the Roohparvar's and their cohorts it seems.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 23, 2015, 08:35:00 am
Don't forget the quiesent current of the batteriser. Putting the batteriser in a remote is a bad idea, I think Bob even said something this in an answer on IGG.
Yep, they've admitted they measured battery voltage unloaded  :palm:, and that they've admitted it will not be good for low power devices :palm:. So even by their own admission it will only be marginally usefull in a few high power devices (remains to be proven). :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on August 23, 2015, 09:55:14 am
My mom will see them and buy me one for Christmas 2016 (because they buys all that crap she sees on TV), so in early 2017 I should be able to do my own scientific analysis of how crappy these things are in real-world practical devices that people actually use (and not clapping monkeys or old fashioned incandescent flashlights).
Whoa there Sherlock!
I like those clapping monkeys!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 23, 2015, 01:48:17 pm
Wait no longer, for Batteroo has finally released the video explaining in great technical detail the Batteriser's principles of operation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w&list=PLC9CB54E90547E019 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w&list=PLC9CB54E90547E019)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pickle9000 on August 23, 2015, 01:55:53 pm
Wait no longer, for Batteroo has finally released the video explaining in great technical detail the Batteriser's principles of operation:



I love that vid
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on August 23, 2015, 01:58:51 pm
"Inverse reactive current for use in unilateral phase reactors."

Where can I buy one?
Oh yeah, Dr Bob makes them.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 23, 2015, 05:30:48 pm
Haven't seen this article before:
The title says it all:
http://fudzilla.com/news/37954-batteriser-falls-flat (http://fudzilla.com/news/37954-batteriser-falls-flat)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on August 23, 2015, 05:51:47 pm
The 800%, or 80% or whatever the figure is, it is just in the funny math:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS2aEfbEi7s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS2aEfbEi7s)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 23, 2015, 06:04:59 pm
Someone pointed me to this:
Looks like the board of Dr Bob's previous company DigitalOptics of which he was Preseindet & CEO weren't happy with him and gave him to boot:
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1261694/000092189513000602/prec14a06297103_03152013.htm (http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1261694/000092189513000602/prec14a06297103_03152013.htm)
He started Batteriser that same month.

Quote
We Are Concerned that Current Board Leadership Will Continue to Prevent
Effective Management of the Company and a Constructive Dialogue with Stockholders
 
Tessera has experienced continued turnover of its top-level managers in recent years, including a number who joined the Company only recently, yet received a handsome severance package or lucrative consulting arrangement.  Two examples are discussed below:
 
Farzan (Bob) Roohparvar, who joined the Company in March 2011, was terminated from his position as President of DOC on September 4, 2012.  The Company and Mr. Roohparvar entered into a settlement agreement on December 4, 2012, pursuant to which the Company agreed to pay him and his attorneys $500,000 as an initial separation payment and $440,000 in additional severance payments.  In connection with the settlement agreement, a subsidiary of the Company and Mr. Roohparvar entered into a consulting agreement pursuant to which he will provide up to five hours per month of advice through December 31, 2013 for total payments of up to $60,000.

So sounds like he had plenty of cash to pour into Batteriser.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: eilize on August 23, 2015, 06:16:27 pm
what??

don't make a joke from technology send by raptor jesus  !!!  O0
the batteriser 'll free your soul for only 2.5$





seriously

there is a simple principle..
in a ideal case where  there is no loss
the power is constant  on both side of a converter, it can only decrease.

so if you increase the voltage to ruin your jauge power...you ruin your current source
usefullness of a voltage source where you drasticlly decrease the current  ??

a simple boost

     _________L    __  \___________
    !                         |            |            |
-------                    \              |            |
!  u  !                      |            C           R
!------                      |            |            |
    |_____________|______|______|

IR= IL(1-alpha)

where alpha is the duty cycle

and i forget the loss by switching


raptor jesus know  you need it^^
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 23, 2015, 09:03:56 pm
Dave, well done. It looks like evidence proving that the Batteriser is a total scam (or failure at best) is mounting almost daily (certainly faster than "Bob" Roohparvar can generate crappy bullshit videos) and it seems EEVblog was the catalyst. I haven't seen much from his "fan" either. Do you think they might have actually conducted the same tests you did (albeit off-camera), then turned to each other and said "oh shit..."?

Note to Batteroo: Leave the EE to the EE's (that's Electronics Engineers). Maybe you guys could get a job at Apple, what you designed looked great but wasn't very useful and cost too much ;-)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 23, 2015, 09:20:21 pm
Dave, well done. It looks like evidence proving that the Batteriser is a total scam (or failure at best) is mounting almost daily (certainly faster than "Bob" Roohparvar can generate crappy bullshit videos) and it seems EEVblog was the catalyst. I haven't seen much from his "fan" either. Do you think they might have actually conducted the same tests you did (albeit off-camera), then turned to each other and said "oh shit..."?

Note to Batteroo: Leave the EE to the EE's (that's Electronics Engineers). Maybe you guys could get a job at Apple, what you designed looked great but wasn't very useful and cost too much ;-)

Apple hire real EE, not fake one so I really doubt that they could even afford to get a job there.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 23, 2015, 09:25:03 pm
Dave, well done. It looks like evidence proving that the Batteriser is a total scam (or failure at best) is mounting almost daily (certainly faster than "Bob" Roohparvar can generate crappy bullshit videos) and it seems EEVblog was the catalyst. I haven't seen much from his "fan" either. Do you think they might have actually conducted the same tests you did (albeit off-camera), then turned to each other and said "oh shit..."?

Note to Batteroo: Leave the EE to the EE's (that's Electronics Engineers). Maybe you guys could get a job at Apple, what you designed looked great but wasn't very useful and cost too much ;-)

Apple hire real EE, not fake one so I really doubt that they could even afford to get a job there.

That was my dig at Apple ;-)
What Apple make look pretty (including all the packaging) but, yeah... nahhhhh....
The amount of Apple hardware I've thrown out vs. PC hardware -- Apple wins hands down. There is a reason toddlers have their own iDevices these days: they are just toys.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 23, 2015, 09:55:02 pm
Do you think they might have actually conducted the same tests you did (albeit off-camera), then turned to each other and said "oh shit..."?

There had to be at least several "oh shit" moments, that was very obvious in the way they have changed their story and claims bit by bit after everyone takes them to task over every new thing. All this has been documented.
I suspect they might have learned their lesson by now, as it seems there isn't a single EE on the planet who will back them. If they are the least bit smart they won't bother to release their "technical" video for engineers, they must know they don't have a technical leg left to stand on any more. There was a hint of that with the "Troops" delay excuse.
The only reason left to do it or say any more at all is to appease their financial backers, and if they do do it, it'll likely be done very reluctantly, which will likely make the video even worse. Imagine a young earth creationist who comes into a creation debate trying to hedge their bets and weasle around things, it'll be awkward and fail. You either don't turn up at all, or you go full Ken Ham. Of course you still fail either way  ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 23, 2015, 11:24:25 pm
Meh, if there is a video/interview, etc, I expect it to be totally fake and scripted. There is no way they are going to let real EEs question them.

It would have been so easy for them to just put the butteriser in one clapping monkey and normal batteries in another and make the two run until the battery is drained like a Duracell bunny test. Yet they didn't, I wonder why. :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 23, 2015, 11:25:52 pm
Yeah, even the bunny test ad is much more scientific than their videos :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on August 23, 2015, 11:48:20 pm
Yeah, even the bunny test ad is much more scientific than their videos :)

Well, at least the Duracell bunny was just as misleading, by comparing an alkaline Duracell battery against zinc-chloride batteries from other brands (in 2014!), and then giving the impression that it was outlasting 12 other batteries in sequence, when it wasn't even doing that: http://www.thegrocer.co.uk/buying-and-supplying/advertising-watchdogs-silence-duracells-drumming-bunny/373910.article (http://www.thegrocer.co.uk/buying-and-supplying/advertising-watchdogs-silence-duracells-drumming-bunny/373910.article)

A nice parallel to the 800% claim really ;)

That's almost as misleading as "look! The battery status is showing 100%!"...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 24, 2015, 01:04:34 am
And at this point, I'm not sure who's reading this if its Bob, Frankie, or Min Park, but it's also time to dispense with the "toxic battery" claim. Common alkaline batteries have not used mercury for a long time. Here is Duracell's statement on the matter:

Quote
Alkaline batteries can be safely disposed of with normal household waste. Never dispose of batteries in fire because they could explode.

Due to concerns about mercury in the municipal solid waste stream, we have voluntarily eliminated all of the added mercury from our alkaline batteries since 1993, while maintaining the performance you demand. Our alkaline batteries are composed primarily of common metals—steel, zinc, and manganese—and do not pose a health or environmental risk during normal use or disposal.
Well it depends whether your using Chinese rip-off batteries, like they are.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 24, 2015, 04:17:08 am
Well, at least the Duracell bunny was just as misleading, by comparing an alkaline Duracell battery against zinc-chloride batteries from other brands (in 2014!), and then giving the impression that it was outlasting 12 other batteries in sequence, when it wasn't even doing that: http://www.thegrocer.co.uk/buying-and-supplying/advertising-watchdogs-silence-duracells-drumming-bunny/373910.article (http://www.thegrocer.co.uk/buying-and-supplying/advertising-watchdogs-silence-duracells-drumming-bunny/373910.article)
There must be many versions of bunny commercials by now, haven't seen that one.
Quote from: The Advertising Standards Authority
We considered the test data provided was not sufficient to demonstrate that the advertised product lasted longer than 12 leading zinc batteries consecutively used, in general usage, based on tests on a representative device. We therefore concluded that the ads were misleading.
:-+ That's how it's supposed to work. I wonder if there is something similar in the USA?

But it's not nearly as bad as the batteriser IMO. While misleading and the figure 12 might be BS it's still no secret that alkaline batteries last much longer than zinc cells (on average about 6x according to this old radioshack FAQ (http://support.radioshack.com/support_tutorials/batteries/bt-zicl-main.htm) ). If you put two Duracell bunnies side by side, one with crap zinc battery and the other with Duracell ultra power with duralock ::), the duracell one will outlast the zinc one by many times (even if not twelve). So the duracell advertisement might have been exaggerated and misleading but not a butteriser level scam.

Batteriser claims they will extend batterylife up to 8x, while most likely it would drain the batteries faster in most cases, unless they have come up with some nobel prize winning new physics. We all know what would happen with two monkeys, one with a batteriser and one with normal battery: the one without the batteriser will last longer since the monkey is an unregulated resistive load. So the batteriser claim is completely nonsense. In most cases it will be detrimental: higher risk of leakage, breaks the low battery indicators, drains batteries faster, etc. etc... And I'm sure the inventors know this, either that or they are so incompetent they shouldn't even be teaching electronics at gradeschool; this is a tenured professor at a university who doesn't understand you should measure battery under load? :palm: :palm: :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 05:49:27 am
One stupid question, but does a batterizer or equivalent on a single battery in a 2 or 4 battery product, won't it cause any problem?

I mean we always say to not mix battery of various ages/manufacturer on a single device, so if one battery always output 1.5 until it die completely, won't it be a problem?
Especially as some product may put the battery in parallel...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 06:13:10 am
One stupid question, but does a batterizer or equivalent on a single battery in a 2 or 4 battery product, won't it cause any problem?
Yes.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 24, 2015, 06:33:41 am
If you put several independent boost converters in parallel or series, that would normally cause problem as well since the ripples superimpose so you'd get beat frequencies and varying amplitude and lots of other nasty problems.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on August 24, 2015, 07:45:37 am
If you put several independent boost converters in parallel or series, that would normally cause problem as well since the ripples superimpose so you'd get beat frequencies and varying amplitude and lots of other nasty problems.
An interesting point... but irrelevant to them, as the Batteriser is a marketing smoke screen, buying time to prepare their micro-fusion AA reactor to replace conventional batteries.
"Certified Landfill-safe by a team of professors and highly skilled engineers."
What could go wrong?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on August 24, 2015, 07:58:50 am
Hi,

Since the Batteriser only adds 0.1mm to the length of the battery, Can I use two or more batterisers?

With their math

1 x Batteriser will give a 8x improvement

Therefore two will give

82 or 64x improvement

Soon I will never need to buy a battery again !!! :-//

Jay
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 24, 2015, 08:36:30 am
Hi,

Since the Batteriser only adds 0.1mm to the length of the battery, Can I use two or more batterisers?


They say the material is 0.1mm thick, but I haven't seen the claim that they only add 0.1mm to the cell's overall length. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ampere on August 24, 2015, 09:43:17 am
Does anyone else think that the Batteriser and Solar Roadways folks should join forces?

The roadways would generate power and the Batterisers could amplify the power 800%, enough to power entire cities. It could be the most profitable crowd funding campaign in history.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 12:06:58 pm
Does anyone else think that the Batteriser and Solar Roadways folks should join forces?

The roadways would generate power and the Batterisers could amplify the power 800%, enough to power entire cities. It could be the most profitable crowd funding campaign in history.
I'm imagining some guys using a crane to clip a huge batterizer to each road segment as they install them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on August 24, 2015, 01:52:35 pm
I'm imagining some guys using a crane to clip a huge batterizer to each road segment as they install them.
Let's put an alternate proposal together... A roadway comprising many  small diameter rollers laid across the lanes - each driving a small generator...
Edited: Stupid tablet spell-checker!)
Each roller is constrained to turn a fraction of a degree with each new application of rotational force in order to permit the vehicle to move forward.

Tie all the small generators together to generate what effectively is a half-wave DC waveform...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on August 24, 2015, 03:47:50 pm
I still can't quite understand the purpose of the crowdfunding campaign, with the qualifications and work experience of the Roohparvar brothers they wouldn't have any problems whatsoever getting millions out of investors and venture capitalists! Is it publicity? Is it because the money are uninsured? (I suspect they can't just run away with investor money?)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 24, 2015, 03:57:49 pm
I still can't quite understand the purpose of the crowdfunding campaign, with the qualifications and work experience of the Roohparvar brothers they wouldn't have any problems whatsoever getting millions out of investors and venture capitalists! Is it publicity? Is it because the money are uninsured? (I suspect they can't just run away with investor money?)
Several reasons:
- SK puts in money plus services *valued* up to $1M. That can leave a funding gap to get to production.
-The need to show retail partners that consumers will actually buy the product
- Advertsing buzz
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 04:04:59 pm
- SK puts in money plus services *valued* up to $1M. That can leave a funding gap to get to production.
-The need to show retail partners that consumers will actually buy the product
- Advertsing buzz

All of this.
Plus SK will be looking to flip the company for a profit to another company up the food chain, and crowd funding campaigns like this are kinda expected these days.
They would be completely bummed at only getting $275K or so, but enough to show it's got some traction.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: nessatse on August 24, 2015, 04:24:23 pm

New video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 05:16:59 pm
He is in more than 500 patents?

Oh my IPU!

You are on 500+ patents only because you where CEO (and not an EE or whatever) in a company where the Policy was to put the name of the CEO on every patent issued. You NEVER do any of the Out of the Box thinking, you are definitely not that type of person. You are just the normal type of CEO that say "Yay I was working in this wonderful company that generated billions of $$$" and forget all of the one you killed, and the one that worked, most of the time you where just put there by some management board in a company that was already exinsting, and when the company start to goes bad, you just disappear instantly.

I know that type of guy, I meet one, that was my CEO at some point and when the company started to goes bad he leave pretty quickly "because he had better opportunity elsewhere"....

I don't even want to see the rest of the video just the first 2 minutes disgust me.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 05:24:44 pm
WHAT? 46 minutes technical video and no batteriser? WTF? Just put in the damn thing a used battery and show us numbers...

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 05:27:42 pm
WHAT? 46 minutes technical video and no batteriser? WTF? Just put in the damn thing a used battery and show as numbers...

Alexander.

I'm pretty sure he just said that you don't take the area under the graph in a battery discharge plot, you have to take the whole area, above and below the graph? :/
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 05:28:18 pm
And the continue to say that the GPS unit failed when the screen dimmed...

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 05:29:43 pm
I'm confused about snails....  :o

I got the answer, I just have no idea how he thinks this relates to batteries...  |O
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 05:31:49 pm
"area under the curve"

and then he highlights the whole graph, below, and above the curve.... so confuse?!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 24, 2015, 05:34:33 pm
Their only point in this 46 minutes long video is that if there is a current spike the voltage can dip below the cut-off voltage suddenly. They claim that the Garmin GPS detects that and shut down prematurely.

(Yeah I don't get what he was trying to say about the area under the curve? Since it's constant current power is proportional to voltage and thus energy is the time integral of the voltage curve?  :-//)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 05:36:45 pm
Their only point in this 46 minutes long video is that if there is a current spike the voltage can dip below the cut-off voltage suddenly. They claim that the Garmin GPS detects that and shut down prematurely.

so stick a capacitor in it? problem solved!

wait, I think we already discussed this... lol
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 24, 2015, 05:47:08 pm
Yeah?  :palm:

Seems the whole point of the batteriser is to fool the devices battery level indicator so people don't change batteries to prematurely.

The unrealistic test situation aside, did the garmin gps really shut down or did it only display a low battery message?

(And btw, issuing patents is not hard, it just cost a lot of money.)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 05:49:36 pm
Yeah?  :palm:

Seems the whole point of the batteriser is to fool the devices battery level indicator so people don't change batteries to prematurely.

The unrealistic test situation aside, did the garmin gps really shut down or did it only display a low battery message?

(And btw, issuing patents is not hard, it just cost a lot of money.)

as far as we can all tell, it didn't shut down at all, it just displayed a message suggesting you use rechargeable batteries.

they never posted a log of the battery voltage, so I doubt it ever got down to 1.1volts, even for a fraction of a second.

edit: their new video also seems to be claiming that the gps draws 200 to ~660ma on peaks, which is when it shut down.... even though their previous video showed it using 125 to ~320ma when it shut down...  :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Orips on August 24, 2015, 06:06:19 pm
OMG there are so many things wrong in that video I don't know where to start!

Re. the Garmin testing this is what I think is happening - the Garmin is doing exactly what it has been designed to do - monitor the battery voltage and dim the backlight and display the message when it reaches a particular level. I think the spike they are seeing is the current drawn when the display is updated with the message. Either by the micro or display. The 2.25V (1.1v/cell) they are measuring on the scope is purely a coincidence and is NOT the shutdown voltage of the device!

The Garmin would almost certainly have a boost converter so the voltage spikes they are seeing would have absolutely no effect on the unit. They would see the same spikes if they measured across the battery inside the Batteriser. If they could measure after the Garmins boost converter (like they are on the batteriser) there will be no spikes.

The Batteriser is also interfering with the Garmins firmware design by not allowing it to measure battery voltage and use its current minimising features like reducing backlight brightness etc. to extend operation.
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 24, 2015, 06:17:13 pm
The Batteriser is also interfering with the Garmins firmware design by not allowing it to measure battery voltage and use its current minimising features like reducing backlight brightness etc. to extend operation.
I think you are right, and then it really does seems like the only effect is too fool the devices own battery measurements so it doesn't show a low battery warning to the user... |O

Why can't they just put the batteriser on the dead monkey batteries and show us the monkey clap seven times as long as it already had.

Oh well, the truth will get out eventually... :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Orips on August 24, 2015, 06:21:51 pm
The Batteriser is also interfering with the Garmins firmware design by not allowing it to measure battery voltage and use its current minimising features like reducing backlight brightness etc. to extend operation.
I think you are right, and then it really does seems like the only effect is too fool the devices own battery measurements so it doesn't show a low battery warning to the user... |O

Why can't they just put the batteriser on the dead monkey batteries and show us the monkey clap seven times as long as it already had.

Oh well, the truth will get out eventually... :popcorn:
Probably because it wont! :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 24, 2015, 06:36:17 pm
Probably because it wont! :-DD
Or maybe big battery is holding them back! :o :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 06:55:28 pm
This video just popped up, I have not watched it yet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cV8SH7Ghbo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cV8SH7Ghbo)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 07:09:43 pm
This video just popped up, I have not watched it yet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cV8SH7Ghbo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cV8SH7Ghbo)

He is wrong about the Apple keyboard. I mentioned before that the batteries on that thing last about 2 months. And when Apple released the mighty mouse, the combination of the two, got something  screwed up and the batteries lasted 2 weeks max.

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 07:13:54 pm
BTW, I didn't get it when I first look at the keyboard video, but Batterafool got it wrong on the OS name, the X is Roman numeral, so OS X is to be pronounced OS TEN.

That's my 2 cents ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 07:15:25 pm
Should I dare watch this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w)

Or should I wait for the Rotten Tomatoes review to see if it's worth wasting my life on?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 07:16:31 pm
Should I dare watch this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w)

Or should I wait for the Rotten Tomatoes review to see if it's worth wasting my life on?

It is refreshing.

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 24, 2015, 07:18:48 pm
If you put several independent boost converters in parallel or series, that would normally cause problem as well since the ripples superimpose so you'd get beat frequencies and varying amplitude and lots of other nasty problems.
Exactly. These things run at higher frequencies, one device will respond to the output of the other.
Without communicated synchronisation they have to be damped, reaction slown down, witch reduces the overall stability, specs and efficiency.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 24, 2015, 07:19:49 pm
Should I dare watch this?

Or should I wait for the Rotten Tomatoes review to see if it's worth wasting my life on?

Yes, definitely. You learn in 46 minutes that devices should add a few capacitors to allow for current peaks... Oh wait, they already do :)

McBryce.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 07:22:13 pm
So, if the butteriser just compensates for high peak loads, it won't help in a torch, because that's a fairly continuous resistance load, it won't help in the monkey, because that will run down to nothing anyway.

It won't help in any older hand held games consoles or tv remotes.

It most likely won't do anything in a wireless keyboard or mouse.

It will possibly allow a discman to spin up the disc at a lower cell starting voltage, but won't actually increase the run time.

And it might allow a digital camera to take 5 extra pics...

I'm sold!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on August 24, 2015, 07:23:25 pm
Should I dare watch this?
You will also learn that he has over 500 patents in his name and about 200 in the pipeline to be issued.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 24, 2015, 07:23:50 pm
I still can't quite understand the purpose of the crowdfunding campaign, with the...
Before: Get your coolTech idea payed for by the un-educated masses and clueless decision makers. Avoid "hard" and "tough" scientific questions and proof. 
Now: Get your coolTech idea reviewed by the online community, unfortunately including that small science educated niche community.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 24, 2015, 07:29:54 pm
Should I dare watch this?
...

The interviewer is a computer generated voice. (in the first 2 minutes, didn't watch/hear the rest)
Makes me think of the voice in my GPS.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 24, 2015, 07:31:50 pm
Oh what a fail!  :palm:

Dave, looking forward to you picking apart this video. Please include cheesy royalty-free music in your response. Instead of the clacky keyboard sound, I request you use an old fashioned typewriter with the carriage return "ding" at the end of each question.   :D

Also, could they not afford to hire TWO lapel mics?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 07:35:22 pm
Dave: I'm not even sure that the Rotten Tomato folks would even bother to give a note for this, they would die of borring just after 3 minutes of watching.

Also, could they not afford to hire TWO lapel mics?
No, this is not their job, they are here only to sell their ripoff of my BUTTeRUSEr PTM Edition (I have small tweak to be done before releasing it, OSH of course) so, leave the good mics to folks that only know how to do youtube videos and not EE, like dave, and leave the EE to people that know how it works...

(did that mean that they should stop doing EE and Youtube video, as dave is good at both?)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on August 24, 2015, 07:37:26 pm
Should I dare watch this?

You will learn that batteries equipped with batteriser can supply peak current at higher voltage than batteries without or at least that is the implication you get from the video. The batteriser is not participating in the video.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 07:47:55 pm
Should I dare watch this?
Or should I wait for the Rotten Tomatoes review to see if it's worth wasting my life on?
There's 10 minutes of stating the obvious (explaining how batteries work), two outright lies, then half an hour of mind-numbing mumbling while looking at oscilloscopes trying to justify those lies (our monkey probing friend makes an appearance for this).

At no point do they put a batteriser on a 'dead' battery and show it working again or do anything obvious/useful like that.

Hey, at least they got him a proper soldering iron for this one.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 07:49:40 pm
Is their (cheap) oscilloscope (cheap) probe are correctly calibrated this time?

It's really funny to see that a company that should have so much money to buy cheap chinese stuff for their "EE lab"? Why I don't see any agilent/tek/... or even Rigol branded TE stuffs?

Why does their EE lab look like a cheap table with nothing that a normal EE lab should have?

There is no way to "create" a sleeve like what they claim to have done in a lab like this.
I wonder if everything hasn't been fully ODM designed by some chinese company on the behalf of the battefool company?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 08:02:48 pm
There's 10 minutes of stating the obvious (explaining how batteries work), two outright lies

What lies are they?
(I still haven't watched it)

Quote
then half an hour of mind-numbing mumbling while looking at oscilloscopes trying to justify those lies (our monkey probing friend makes an appearance for this).

Oh great.

Quote
At no point do they put a batteriser on a 'dead' battery and show it working again or do anything obvious/useful like that.

Of course not! They seem to specialise in this.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 24, 2015, 08:02:59 pm
They do use a Rigol in part of the video.

McBryce.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 08:05:23 pm
Should I dare watch this?


something about snails, and 25 feet, which apparently 90% of people won't get, I assume that means he didn't get it at first either, I thought it was pretty obvious...  :-/O
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 08:05:42 pm
You will learn that batteries equipped with batteriser can supply peak current at higher voltage than batteries without or at least that is the implication you get from the video.

Ah, didn't somebody call this one a while back? as peak currents have recently been discussed on the forum.
I've been waiting for them to mention peak currents and voltage dips due to ESR. Let me guess, they use a camera as a test device in the video? (that are notorious for peak current issues with Alkalines)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 08:07:46 pm
You will learn that batteries equipped with batteriser can supply peak current at higher voltage than batteries without or at least that is the implication you get from the video.

Ah, didn't somebody call this one a while back? as peak currents have recently been discussed on the forum.
I've been waiting for them to mention peak currents and voltage dips due to ESR. Let me guess, they use a camera as a test device in the video? (that are notorious for peak current issues with Alkalines)

(well, yes, but I wasn't paying much attention)
however, they claimed the GPS drew 660ma peak, dropping the cells from 1.25 volts each, to 1.1volts, and causing it to shut down...

which is interesting, because their first test showed the GPS drawing about 300ma peak when it shut down...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 08:23:21 pm
But then, if its dropping to 1.1volts with (660ma) ~730mw load, with an 80% efficient dc-dc converter, you're now drawing ~910mw, or 830ma at 1.1volt..... but you're not going to have 1.1volts anymore, because you've increased the load.......... we all know where this is going of course :P

And can we really expect a 700+ ma output from a tiny boost regulator, with basically no capacitance? Isn't that going to drop voltage just as badly as the cells are anyway?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on August 24, 2015, 08:24:41 pm
It's really funny to see that a company that should have so much money to buy cheap chinese stuff for their "EE lab"? Why I don't see any agilent/tek/... or even Rigol branded TE stuffs?
There was a Rigol DS1054Z and a Tektronix current probe. They didn't show if the probes were properly compensated.

The video is unnecessarily lengthy to make their point. They don't show Batteriser at all, nor a real side by side comparison. The Garmin screen with the pop up notification looks to me like the text is intentionally smudged beyond readability. They don't properly show their test setup, it is unclear where they measure voltage and current and how long (and thing) the leads are they use. In all cases the battery holders were extended with wires to place them outside the DUT. They didn't show that the Batterizered batteries actually fit (physically, in length and diameter in the DUT's battery compartments.

I understand his "under the curve" vs. "boxed" argument (it is basically using two Y-axis, one in volts the other in ampères it should've been explained more clealy), but this is only accurate for a constant current load which is in my opinion very unlikely. I can't imagine a load would draw the same current at a 1.5V battery voltage as at a 0.8V battery voltage.

My 1.76 €ct
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 08:26:17 pm
There's 10 minutes of stating the obvious (explaining how batteries work), two outright lies, then half an hour of mind-numbing mumbling while looking at oscilloscopes
To save people from sitting through that awful video:

a) Apparently you have to include the area above the battery discharge curve when you're dealing with constant current devices, not just the area below it.

(No, I don't get it either, he just states that as a fact and gives no explanation.)

b) Due to ESR, sudden spikes in current demand can cause sudden voltage drops at the battery terminals. If the voltage drops low enough during a huge spike then the device will shut down prematurely. This in turn makes you think the batteries are dead when they're really half full (or whatever).

This is what the robot finger on the GPS is for - to cause big current spikes.

Does Batteriser prevent this voltage drop by drawing even more current from the battery to compensate? :-// This isn't explained.

Well, it might be but my brain went into shutdown after 20 minutes of mumbling and oscilloscope traces to prove that current draw in devices isn't constant.

(It isn't? Really??? I guess it takes a PhD to know clever stuff like that!!!  :palm: )

Edit: I don't mean the ESR voltage drops are a lie, I mean I don't believe the effect is causing millions of people to throw perfectly good batteries away.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 08:31:05 pm
I love the pc with the opened (and modified but not saved) FR_AA.cir file that in the ~/Download folder,
The "Eldo User's Manual (http://www.engr.uky.edu/~elias/tutorials/Eldo/eldo_ur.pdf)" pdf file opened
And best, the user login on the laptop: Engineer, and the laptop is named "Batteroo"
Sound strange, they have only one computer so that they named it the same as their company? and they only have one person working there "Engineer" ?


Ok for the DS1054Z + Tek probe, I haven't saw this video yet, so they bought some stuff since the Monkey video... Or borrow them from the university lab.... ;)
Strange BTW to mix a tek probe with a Rigol DSO

For the shaded area, the area he shade is not the voltage area, but the constant current area "left" which does not mean the same thing AT ALL.
Of course he put the 100mA line on the same level as 1.6V to make sure that the newly shaded area seems really big, but in fact it's just another bullshit.

(and the snail tought experiment is just so stupid..)

Edit: The scope after the "expensive tek probe" seems to be a cheap hantek DSO not a rigol
Look at the screenshot I attached, on 1 for me I read hantek, and look on the right foot of this DSO, it is so bad that they need to use a 250g 1+mm cheap solder wire to make it stable? :D
And the setup on that poor camera is so unprofessional that.. Erk
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 08:39:58 pm
So, if the butteriser just compensates for high peak loads

And how much energy capacity does the coil and output cap in the (ultra-tiny) Batterieser circuitry have to do this? Do they mention that at all?
By inspection, the Batteriser must have bugger-all peak current handling capacity due to it's size, those pesky laws of physics and all.
What they are relying on is the Batteriser goes down the 0.6V on the cell input, and that could be an advantage in a few niche circumstances, but if they don't actually show it in practice, then, blah.

Do they mention or show the pulse response of the Batterieser?
Do they mention or show the efficiency response curve of the Battersier?
I fully expected this "be-all end-all" technical videos for "real engineers" to include at least that stuff.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 08:45:07 pm
Ok for the DS1054Z + Tek probe, I haven't saw this video yet, so they bought some stuff since the Monkey video...
Yep. They've got him a nice new Hakko soldering station.

I hope it's enough reward for committing career suicide on video. Just imagine the his next job interview -  "Hey, it's the monkey-butt guy!!".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on August 24, 2015, 08:47:30 pm
b) Due to ESR, sudden spikes in current demand can cause sudden voltage drops at the battery terminals. If the voltage drops low enough during a huge spike then the device will shut down prematurely.

[...]

Does Batteriser prevent this voltage drop by drawing even more current from the battery to compensate?

I've been experimenting with a boost converter on a penlight in the past myself and it workes reasonably well for the purpose I used it for: An el cheapo LED camping light that fades over time. One of my lessons learned was that due to a current peak the converter can "latch up". Due to an output current peak the battery can be loaded so far that its voltage collapses beyond a certain point of recovery causing excessive current to be drawn. Current can be significant, heating up the cells, but total output power can in that case be very low, even too low to power the load, but enough to keep the converter running. The battery output voltage only recovers after switching off the converter (switching off the load is no longer sufficient) and reconnecting it.

I believe I did hear couple Energy vs. Voltage mess up's, but I can't be bothered to view the video again.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 08:50:05 pm
I understand his "under the curve" vs. "boxed" argument (it is basically using two Y-axis, one in volts the other in ampères it should've been explained more clealy), but this is only accurate for a constant current load

Is that what he was trying to get at? All I saw was him drawing a line across at the 1.6V level then shading the area above the graph and saying "this means there's really 50% remaining".

which is in my opinion very unlikely. I can't imagine a load would draw the same current at a 1.5V battery voltage as at a 0.8V battery voltage.
The rest of the video is devoted to proving that current draw isn't constant.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 08:52:03 pm
a) Apparently you have to include the area above the battery discharge curve when you're dealing with constant current devices, not just the area below it.
(No, I don't get it either, he just states that as a fact and gives no explanation.)

Ok, someone pointed me to that bit so I watched it.
The point he's trying to make here is exactly the same as my graph in my blog post and follow-up video here:
(http://www.eevblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/CoppertopAA-DischargeCapacityGraph-Line.png)
Except that he's assuming the battery capacity is measured in only mAh, which of course no battery is. Battery capacity is measured in Wh. Did he mention this later?
But, as my graph shows (which calculates power), it's almost a linear line, so mAh and Wh are practically the same in this case. In that case as my graph shows you can simply take the capacity remaining from the X axis like he is saying (the "area" part is moot).
So once again, he's technically right, but he's not saying anything that hasn't been said before, and he's not the least bit disproving the graph in my blog post.
If he did exactly what he is saying on real data (which he didn't), then he'd get the exact same result of remaining capacity as my graph. No surprises there at all.
It's more misdirection to try and prove they are "right" and everyone else is "wrong"  ::)
FAIL.

Did they really not do any test on the Batteriser itself in a 40min video?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 08:58:11 pm
Dave: After 30 minutes, no batterizer, apart if the gps setup have one on it, but no mention about that. and as they are to measure "real battery voltage and current" I doubt that their stuff is inside.

And the rigol is just there for the show but does nothing, they still use the hantek cheapo for measurement, strange...

Before I forgot, both of them seems really uneasy by doing this video, just look at their body languages, they both shake their legs, sign of big stress and being in a really uncomfortable position, especially Chris.

BTW their way to "measure" average is beyond stupidity, why don't they use the DSO measurement functionality to get the average instead of wrongly put a cursor somewhere?

And our Chris does not know how to configure his nice Rigol DS1054 to configure the channel to says probe is 10X and display mA instead of mV, but I'm maybe asking too much.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 09:05:00 pm
@Dave. No batteriser. You must watch it.

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 09:07:55 pm
@Dave. No batteriser. You must watch it.

Must I?  :(
Not enough Ripe Tomatoes yet.
Sorry, I have an appointment at the dentist to get all my teeth extracted, and he's out of pain killer and is a former marketing droid who like to talk about synergies. That's a less painful deal by the sounds of it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 09:09:03 pm
But, as my graph shows (which calculates power), it's almost a linear line, so mAh and Wh are practically the same in this case. In that case as my graph shows you can simply take the capacity remaining from the X axis like he is saying (the "area" part is moot).
I just watched it again (it's at 9 minutes in).

I think I got it. The trick is to assume the current remains constant as the voltage drops.

It's not a common situation but it could happen, eg. powering a linear voltage regulator where the battery voltage never drops below the regulator's dropout voltage.

But... that's a situation where using a batteriser will make things much worse. A voltage booster will make sure the voltage regulator is producing the maximum possible amount of heat for 100% of the battery's lifetime.


Did they really not do any test on the Batteriser itself in a 40min video?
Nope.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on August 24, 2015, 09:12:36 pm
@Dave. No batteriser. You must watch it.

Must I?  :(
Not enough Ripe Tomatoes yet.
Sorry, I have an appointment at the dentist to get all my teeth extracted, and he's out of pain killer and is a former marketing droid who like to talk about synergies. That's a less painful deal by the sounds of it.
You are always so full of scientific proof, so ... Picture or it didn't happen  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 09:13:39 pm
@Dave. No batteriser. You must watch it.

Must I?  :(
Not enough Ripe Tomatoes yet.
Sorry, I have an appointment at the dentist to get all my teeth extracted, and he's out of pain killer and is a former marketing droid who like to talk about synergies. That's a less painful deal by the sounds of it.
The start is OK. He proves he actually knows about batteries.

And that kinda makes the rest of it even worse - it throws the fraudulance into sharp relief.

Oh, I lied about the start. There's a really painful part where they ask him how anybody can hold 500 patents and he says "Well, I guess it's because I'm a really really clever person!"  :wtf:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 09:15:28 pm

The start is OK. He proves he actually knows about batteries.


That's what confused me... most of it made sense, was correct, or agreed with what everyone else was saying... and then physics went out the window!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 09:15:32 pm
I think I got it. The trick is to assume the current remains constant as the voltage drops.
It's not a common situation but it could happen, eg. powering a linear voltage regulator where the battery voltage never drops below the regulator's dropout voltage.

Correct. I explained this in a recent video.

Quote
But... that's a situation where using a batteriser will make things much worse. A voltage booster will make sure the voltage regulator is producing the maximum possible amount of heat for 100% of the battery's lifetime.

Correct.

Did they really not do any test on the Batteriser itself in a 40min video?
Nope.
[/quote]

Oh dear  :palm:
Please tell me it has efficiency curves?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 09:16:11 pm

Please tell me it has efficiency curves?

lol
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 09:18:23 pm
They zoom on the recorded singleshot so high that we only see quantisation error  :palm: (33:16)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 24, 2015, 09:23:16 pm
They could have just filmed two products (a Batteriser vs. non-Batteriser) and thrown it into time lapse or sped up the video. Would have been far more interesting (and accurate).

Then again, that would have simply proven Dave right, and Roohparvar et. al. wrong. I guess all they've confirmed is that the Batteriser is a scam.

(I love how Google indexes this forum too) ;-)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 09:26:06 pm
They could have just filmed two products (a Batteriser vs. non-Batteriser) and thrown it into time lapse or sped up the video. Would have been far more interesting (and accurate).
Yes that what I tell pages ago in this topic on the other one can't remember, the GPS video, or the flash light version just show a fancy setup, and directly goes to "the results are this and this" without anytimelapse or whatever.

If the are short on money, can anyone send them a SJ4000 camera? it seems to works really well for timelapse as Dave shown multiple times now
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on August 24, 2015, 09:33:18 pm
Hi,
The Battery model that is presented in the video is the same model that I presented in this thread. I translated the original model from:

S. C. Hageman, “Simple PSpice models let you simulate common battery types,”
Electronic Design News, vol. 38, pp. 117 – 129, 1993.

You can fine the model in this thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/modeling-an-alkaline-battery-in-ltspice/msg731204/#msg731204 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/modeling-an-alkaline-battery-in-ltspice/msg731204/#msg731204)


It absolute BS that the amount of energy remaining depends on whether you have a constant current or a resistive load.

I modified by model to add an energy meter. The energy is the integral of instantaneous power.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=167391;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=167398;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=167402;image)

I find that the battery has a total energy of 10.2 kJ.

If look at how much energy is left when the 1.0V threshold is reached, in both cases I get 1.47 kJ

I have attached a zipfile with the model.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B BSc (Eng) Hons ACGI (Imperial College, London)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on August 24, 2015, 09:54:31 pm
So based on the information provided in the video (which is not worth watching by the way and has the technical content of a brick) someone somewhere is counting discarded batteries on a global scale and conducting load and voltage measurements, really show me the person and the paperwork.

Our local council recycle centre has big bins full of discarded batteries and I've never seen a fellow sitting alongside with a shit load of test gear and an open spread sheet, which begs the question should I go around and grab a few hundred and video the whole thing or like the rest of it would it be a lot of energy and effort for little gain.

And by the way the snail was getting closer to the sun.... :palm:


Muttley
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 09:56:29 pm
@Dave. Don't you dare not to watch it. We are all together to this.  :P :P :P
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:05:23 pm
Our local council recycle centre has big bins full of discarded batteries and I've never seen a fellow sitting alongside with a shit load of test gear and an open spread sheet, which begs the question should I go around and grab a few hundred and video the whole thing or like the rest of it would it be a lot of energy and effort for little gain.

It's pointless, except to build Batteriser case, because it's based on the unknown of why the batteries were discarded.
Without that data then it is misleading to use that data as evidence for energy remaining in used batteries.
But of course Batteriser lapped up that data after it was posted here and will no doubt claim "well that's what people are throwing" out. Well, that may be true, but that habitual based throwing out for whatever reason that won't be changed with the use of the batteriser. As it has been demonstrably shown (and they admit) that most products have a 1.1V cutoff voltage or lower.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 10:07:48 pm
Ooops, looks like they've disabled comments on that new youtube video.

Maybe it didn't answer all our questions.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 24, 2015, 10:09:07 pm
Should I dare watch this?
There are some interesting things, like a Spice battery model (they don't link any references, but I googled it (http://http://www.ni-cd.net/accusphp/forum/docjoints/ID2051_Modelisation_decharge_batteries_Pspice.pdf)).

Then there are the bullshit parts, starting at 8:13: He draws a 100 mA current line and says the energy left is not the area under the voltage curve, but the area under the current line. Has nothing to do with how much power is left and of course, most modern devices needs constant power.

And as already debunked, at 26:38 they repeat that the Garmin device stops functioning after 1:52 hour, but the message on the screen is only a warning for the backlight. As firewalker found out here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg735874/#msg735874), the message could be "The battery power is too low for full backlight. Use rechargeable NiMH or lithium batteries to prevent this limitation.". I did a screenshot and tried some filters to enhance it, and I'm sure this is the message:

(http://i.imgur.com/wLDGWuj.jpg)

Technically maybe you could say that lower backlight means "stop functioning", if they mean 100% functioning and the batteriser would indeed help for this device for this use case. Of course, without the batterise it might be possible to use the GPS device much longer, because the full backlight needs much more power, so this is reasonable for the firmware. But it looks like it does a peak detection. They should improve the firmware and do some average over some seconds, because from the current consumption diagram you can see that it works in constant power mode, so there is an internal boost converter. Short drops below the cutoff voltage doesn't matter.

For the scope part they are using a 0.1 ohm shunt (30:20 in the video: "for every one millivolt you get ten milliamps"). This would result in a voltage drop of 0.046 for the 460 mA, so at least they got this right and it doesn't matter that much for the cutoff voltage. The rest of the video is arguing, that the batteriser prevents such spikes. Adding a 10 cent capacitor, or fixing the firmware of the Garmin device, would solve this, too.

If a laywer would watch the video, they might not say anything wrong, but it is all very misleading and the batteriser is not useful for 99% of all devices.

PS: I'm one of the 10% who knew the right answer for the snail question :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 10:10:38 pm
If I'm throwing away batteries with unknown capacity left, it's because I'm going away, and want new batteries in my digital camera, or I've removed them from a device that I haven't used, or don't plan to use, for a while, and don't want to risk them leaking...

Other than that, they get left in devices till they'll no longer function, at which point the cells are depleted!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:10:57 pm
Ooops, looks like they've disabled comments on that new youtube video.

That's it, the end, they lose.  :-DD

Whilst I love laughing at the train wreck that is Batteriser, I can't help but think the best move is to simply ignore them now and let the product just die a natural death?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on August 24, 2015, 10:14:49 pm
Ooops, looks like they've disabled comments on that new youtube video.

That's it, the end, they lose.  :-DD

Whilst I love laughing at the train wreck that is Batteriser, I can't help but think the best move is to simply ignore them now and let the product just die a natural death?

Bollocks to that Dave!  Keep prodding them until they admit defeat!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 10:15:58 pm
Prod them like the monkey!

But please don't video it...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 10:17:06 pm
Did they really not do any test on the Batteriser itself in a 40min video?
Nope.

Oh dear  :palm:
Please tell me it has efficiency curves?
Snork.  :-DD

You owe me a new keyboard. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on August 24, 2015, 10:19:20 pm
Ooops, looks like they've disabled comments on that new youtube video.

That's it, the end, they lose.  :-DD

Whilst I love laughing at the train wreck that is Batteriser, I can't help but think the best move is to simply ignore them now and let the product just die a natural death?

Just one final video, just one! Film yourself watching it live and comment on the go if you don't want to waste more time!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:20:51 pm
Bollocks to that Dave!  Keep prodding them until they admit defeat!

It gets tiring, like debating young earth creationists. It's fun for a while and then you just have to give up.
I won't get around to doing a responsive video for quite a while on this one (if I have the enthusiasm after watching it), too much else going on.
It would be great if others could also pick up the baton. I can't be the only one in town doing the public video debunking.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:22:53 pm
Just one final video, just one! Film yourself watching it live and comment on the go if you don't want to waste more time!

I thought about that, but that would not be very worthwhile and concise for people who want to learn. It would end up as a mess of a long video, it's a bad idea for such technical things.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 10:30:59 pm
The next video could be with the batteriser under real tests.

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on August 24, 2015, 10:36:49 pm
The next video could be with the batteriser under real tests.

Alexander.

No one has an actual Batteriser, but there must be people on here with 1.5v boost converters kicking around that they could play with?

An AA cell in a device, time how long it runs for. Then a new AA -> boost converter -> device.  Simples! 😀
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 10:40:22 pm
Their campaign was "successful" so the product will be out.

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:45:00 pm
Their campaign was "successful" so the product will be out.

If they don't have any issues with production.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on August 24, 2015, 10:51:07 pm
Their campaign was "successful" so the product will be out.

If they don't have any issues with production.

Like the device doesn't increase the available energy from the batteries by 80% ie. the battery capacity available will be less than promised 1.80 * nominal battery capacity?  :P
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 11:33:52 pm
Like the device doesn't increase the available energy from the batteries by 80% ie. the battery capacity available will be less than promised 1.80 * nominal battery capacity?  :P
Where did you get the 80% number from? Batteriser gives you 800%, not 80%.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on August 24, 2015, 11:42:52 pm
Like the device doesn't increase the available energy from the batteries by 80% ie. the battery capacity available will be less than promised 1.80 * nominal battery capacity?  :P
Where did you get the 80% number from? Batteriser gives you 800%, not 80%.

Maybe I missed just one zero. But as we speak about the Batteriser, zeros don't count.  :P
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 11:49:27 pm
My main problem with Bob and his brother (or even the Chris one) is that they seems to really believe what they are saying.

There is no way you could do a 40min video like that, showing your face without believing for even 1ns on what you are saying.

The main problem is that this person have a really basic knowledge of what EE is, discovered some stuff recently, but never work on real hardware design, and believe they found THE solution, as their test are completely flawed that they give them false confidence in what they claim..

maybe 10 or 15 years ago I would may have thought the same thing about the spike that "make the device stop" but since, I've learn thing, look how device are designed, done some design myself (not a lot that's true, but work on some design by others, event crapish Chinese design) or better watch Dave's YT channel, and learn things, taught myself, learn from other experience, and even if some part of what they say is true, seeing the "unintentional" scam around is clear.

In fact, they are not thinking outside the box, they are completely inside the box, so deep inside that they can't see how false they are...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on August 25, 2015, 12:01:20 am
In fact, they are not thinking outside the box, they are completely inside the box, so deep inside that they can't see how false they are...

Most definitely thay are thinking outside the box. Outside the box called "practical reality".

Anyway, they got the funds to start production. Max. 10% - 20% of the customers will bother asking for a refund, so they will still have the 80% - 90% profit in their pockets.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 25, 2015, 12:17:02 am
In fact, they are not thinking outside the box, they are completely inside the box, so deep inside that they can't see how false they are...

Most definitely thay are thinking outside the box. Outside the box called "practical reality".

Or maybe *we* are outside the box of "reality distortion field"

At least theirs are not as strong and good as Jobs' one.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 25, 2015, 12:33:34 am
At 9:33, Frankie demonstrates on YouTube for the whole world to see that the essence of their claims is that the Batteriser is an over-unity device.

Frankie is either deliberately or ignorantly confusing the voltage at the device's (Batteriser's output/device input) terminals with the voltage at the battery's terminals. The voltage at the battery's terminals DOES NOT GO UP because the Batteriser is attached. That voltage must go down due to the increased current draw in order to boost the voltage at the device terminals.

This so bad it's hard to find adjectives. Batteroo just invalidated at least some of their patent claims. By themselves. On YouTube. 

 :palm: :palm: :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hugoneus on August 25, 2015, 01:24:00 am
Nothing says "We are making scientific, verifiable and honest claims" better than when you disable YouTube rating and comments.

Batterriser you are an embarrassment to the field of engineering.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 25, 2015, 01:32:13 am
I start to think that he beleive that as the batteratruc is forcing the output voltage to 1.5V, that why "constant current" form a rectangle, and why only a rectangle is the only way to calculate the remaining power.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 25, 2015, 02:15:06 am
If they don't have any issues with production.
This was just an attempt to dazzle us with Dr. Bob's résumé, it's just a bunch of smoke and mirrors to obfuscate and confuse. There is no way to debate with them because they are not interested in truth, they are just seeing this as an advertising/pr campaign. They will never admit they are wrong, not even when pigs fly.

I was looking forward to some real eevblog tests of the batteriser though, but yea that assumed there will ever be a real product.  :-\
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 25, 2015, 02:42:49 am
They have disabled comments for all of the videos.

Also I can see a Thumbs Up/Down number. Why? Because of the comments being disabled?

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on August 25, 2015, 03:15:24 am
They are engaged in damage control. Disabling comments, deleting comments are telltale signs of panic.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on August 25, 2015, 03:26:33 am
They are engaged in damage control. Disabling comments, deleting comments are telltale signs of panic.
But why should they panic now?
Their goal was to raise $30,000 and they are now at $ 273,150
So, no matter what they do, they will have a quarter million in their pocket in a coupe of days.

The problem starts when they make this thing and people will return it and eventually there will possible a class action law suit against the corporation for misleading.
But for now, they are just fine.

It really is an embarrassment for the real world of engineering.
 
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr-Beamer on August 25, 2015, 03:28:05 am
nuff said
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=167438)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 25, 2015, 03:41:20 am
They are engaged in damage control. Disabling comments, deleting comments are telltale signs of panic.
But why should they panic now?
Their goal was to raise $30,000 and they are now at $ 273,150
So, no matter what they do, they will have a quarter million in their pocket in a coupe of days.
They're crapping themselves because their backers, SK Telecom, are pissed. The goal isn't to make Batterisers. The goal is a second round of funding followed by an IPO. As of now, that isn't possible. Their retail channel partners have obviously abandoned them.

And that money from IndieGoGo is more of a liability than anything. They're better off giving refunds at this point. They're in this never never land of having orders and fair bit of them, but not enough orders to not tape a dollar bill or three to every order. No CM is going to buy  and stock the MOQs necessary for the Batteriser's price point without Batteroo taking liability. And Batteroo doesn't have the assets to do it themselves.

It's a total nightmare for these guys. If they have any smarts, they'll pull the plug.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on August 25, 2015, 03:54:46 am
They are engaged in damage control. Disabling comments, deleting comments are telltale signs of panic.

They even removed the "Discussion" area from their YouTube page.  Not that they were allowing public comments there either, but it at least provided a convenient way for me to ask them how I am supposed to ask questions (like they promised) about the new video, and also to point out to them that there is no reason for them to disable comments if their claims are true and can be backed up, since a large community of EE's would happily chime in and correct naysayers who would make non-factual statements.  So if they really believe what they are saying, there should be no reason at all to disable comments.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 25, 2015, 04:32:41 am
Their goal was to raise $30,000
That was never a real goal. $30,000 will go nowhere when you're trying to mass produce something like the batterizer.

Besides, they had $1 million in funding six months ago. Why would they need another $30,000?

If there's a 'goal' for the Indiegogo campaign it's to be able to point to a "successful crowdfunding" as part of their scam (hoping nobody notices it was a fake campaign because they already had some venture capitalists behind them).

Pretty soon people are going to want to own their own batterizers. As soon they have to deliver the IndieGoGo rewards the game is up. I'm expecting about 60% of the normal battery life except for very low power devices. People will surely notice that. Anybody really expecting 8x battery life is going to be very disappointed.

After that it only takes one major news story or one syndicated TV program to totally destroy them as far as an IPO, a big military contract, ...or whatever other plan they have in mind goes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hugoneus on August 25, 2015, 04:47:46 am
I really hope that Dave makes a response video to this.  O0 I know at this point it is a waste of his time, but it would be so entertaining.

And thanks Dave for all that you have done already. :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SundayProgrammer on August 25, 2015, 04:53:50 am
Still no video of Batteriser in action? Come on... Enough chitchat, Bob. If you actually have a working prototype or a final product you would show the clapping monkey with Batteriser already.
This is a hoax and they keep it alive as long as possible to collect investors' money (and laugh all the way to bank). Are we involved in keeping this hoax alive by keep on analyzing this...

Axel.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 25, 2015, 05:22:16 am
If I'm throwing away batteries with unknown capacity left, it's because I'm going away, and want new batteries in my digital camera, or I've removed them from a device that I haven't used, or don't plan to use, for a while, and don't want to risk them leaking...

Other than that, they get left in devices till they'll no longer function, at which point the cells are depleted!

Likewise, especially when I'm doing anything with my audio/video gear. Fresh batteries every time I use them. I don't bother checking the state of the 'used' ones. In most cases they are probably half empty or less.

Bollocks to that Dave!  Keep prodding them until they admit defeat!

It gets tiring, like debating young earth creationists. It's fun for a while and then you just have to give up.
I won't get around to doing a responsive video for quite a while on this one (if I have the enthusiasm after watching it), too much else going on.
It would be great if others could also pick up the baton. I can't be the only one in town doing the public video debunking.

What about mini-Dave? Does a uni student know more than Batteriser's "engineers"? My bets are on Dave ;-)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 25, 2015, 05:23:34 am
Anyway, they got the funds to start production. Max. 10% - 20% of the customers will bother asking for a refund, so they will still have the 80% - 90% profit in their pockets.

So that's the residual 80% they've been talking about all along! Finally it's starting to make sense :D

McBryce.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on August 25, 2015, 06:53:40 am
There is no way you could do a 40min video like that, showing your face without believing for even 1ns on what you are saying.

there is $1M ways I would do it, naked, while singing Mariah Carey, badly!


edit: they disabled ratings and comments on videos, that leaves only one option : More / Report / Spam or misleading / SCAMS or FRAUD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 25, 2015, 07:31:50 am
 |O  At this point, I agree with Dave as well.... I am just getting a headache from all this!  |O

Let's put a reminder in our calendars for 3 months and then do a video on the *** ACTUAL BATTERISER *** once it gets delivered to your hands. They are AT THE END of their IndieGogo campaign. The flame war is getting stronger and stronger, and I can see why Dave doesn't want to be dragged into this pissy impossible-to-win debate any longer. It's starting to get TOO PERSONAL and no longer about the Engineering/Science.   :box:

I VOTE FOR 1 MORE VIDEO IN 3 MONTHS!   :popcorn:  Then we watch!

Batteriser *ACTUAL* teardown and *ACTUAL* performance testing on a number of different devices. Now that is the only video I want to ever see again regarding Batteriser.


Here are some other campaigns I'm watching (which have been funded) which I set a reminder to check up on in a few years:

- The Light Phone
- Airing

No point looking at them every day. Waste of time. In 2 years we will see the results.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 25, 2015, 07:46:08 am
I really hope that Dave makes a response video to this.  O0 I know at this point it is a waste of his time, but it would be so entertaining.

And thanks Dave for all that you have done already. :)

Couldn't you make a response (like the one for over unity)? It will become too personal and arduous for a single person busting their claims.

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 08:10:31 am
edit: they disabled ratings and comments on videos

Ah, yes, now disabled comments on ALL their videos. All previous comments gone.
They obviously were totally embarrassed by that idiot "fan" threatening people so they pulled the plug on everything to shut him/them up.
Good move on their part, but now that makes them look even more dodgy than what they already do.
Rock and a hard place.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 25, 2015, 08:15:35 am
What about the number of Up/Down thumbs?

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 08:19:24 am
I really hope that Dave makes a response video to this.  O0 I know at this point it is a waste of his time, but it would be so entertaining.
And thanks Dave for all that you have done already. :)
Couldn't you make a response (like the one for over unity)? It will become too personal and arduous for a single person busting their claims.

Yes, got to be careful not to make this personal. It's not personal of course, but it can certainly come across that way.
I've got an idea for a response video.
As I understand it (still haven't watch it all) their major claim now (they keep moving the goal posts, it's so hard to keep up) is that pulse currents cause product dropouts due to IR.
Ok, fair enough claim, so take a bunch of products like I did in my original video and capture the battery voltage (no need for the current) with the product working on near dead batteries (so the IR is highest). See if:
a) There are any significant battery voltage dips at all
and
b) If there are dips, do they cause the product to fail?

So once again show if the Batteriser, by demonstration, is suitable for all products, or just a few edge cases.
And of course (as I understand it), they haven't demonstrated that the Batteriser does anything to actually help dips like this anyway. It's all just whiteboard hand waving.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 08:23:27 am
What about the number of Up/Down thumbs?

Nope, the Thumbs are gone too on all videos.
http://movie-sounds.org/quotes/indylostark/Wiped-clean-by-the-wrath-of-God.mp3 (http://movie-sounds.org/quotes/indylostark/Wiped-clean-by-the-wrath-of-God.mp3)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hugoneus on August 25, 2015, 08:32:29 am
Thanks Dave. You are right that it is important to not give the illusion that this is personal, it really isn't. If this product actually worked we would be praising it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 08:35:33 am
I start to think that he beleive that as the batteratruc is forcing the output voltage to 1.5V, that why "constant current" form a rectangle, and why only a rectangle is the only way to calculate the remaining power.

I've watched that bit and understand what he's trying to say here (that with CC (with some error) (and CW) you can just read the % remaining from the X axis), and what's he's trying to say is essentially right. But it's a poor way to explain it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 08:39:48 am
They are engaged in damage control. Disabling comments, deleting comments are telltale signs of panic.
But why should they panic now?
Their goal was to raise $30,000 and they are now at $ 273,150
So, no matter what they do, they will have a quarter million in their pocket in a coupe of days.
They're crapping themselves because their backers, SK Telecom, are pissed. The goal isn't to make Batterisers. The goal is a second round of funding followed by an IPO. As of now, that isn't possible. Their retail channel partners have obviously abandoned them.

Yep, my money is on that scenario.

Quote
And that money from IndieGoGo is more of a liability than anything. They're better off giving refunds at this point. They're in this never never land of having orders and fair bit of them, but not enough orders to not tape a dollar bill or three to every order. No CM is going to buy  and stock the MOQs necessary for the Batteriser's price point without Batteroo taking liability. And Batteroo doesn't have the assets to do it themselves.

That is quite possible, and that is very common in the startup/crowd funding hardware world. This is discussed on the Amp Hour all the time.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 25, 2015, 08:40:15 am
I really hope that Dave makes a response video to this.  O0 I know at this point it is a waste of his time, but it would be so entertaining.
And thanks Dave for all that you have done already. :)
Couldn't you make a response (like the one for over unity)? It will become too personal and arduous for a single person busting their claims.

Yes, got to be careful not to make this personal. It's not personal of course, but it can certainly come across that way.
I've got an idea for a response video.
As I understand it (still haven't watch it all) their major claim now (they keep moving the goal posts, it's so hard to keep up) is that pulse currents cause product dropouts due to IR.

The problem is that Brothers Roohparvar are changing their YouTube claims while maintaining their (largely) original and demonstrably false claims on their website and IGG page.  I don't see why anyone should to chase this new claim.  It's a waste of time. Nothing changes the essential fact that their *premises* are utterly flawed:

The devices they are showing on their site are NOT leaving 80% of the energy unused in an alkaline cell.  There is no 800% or whatever the number is today of runtime to recover out of a cell that a device has run to 1.1V or less. 

Lastly, the Batteriser is utterly, unmistakably in the over-unity device category now.  Frankie's whiteboard explanation illustrates clearly that is what they are claiming.  There really doesn't need to be another video debunking because Batteroo thoroughly debunked themselves in under ten minutes. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 25, 2015, 08:54:04 am
So once again show if the Batteriser, by demonstration, is suitable for all products, or just a few edge cases.
And of course (as I understand it), they haven't demonstrated that the Batteriser does anything to actually help dips like this anyway. It's all just whiteboard hand waving.
They tried to demonstrate this for the Garmin Approach G3 device, which they repeated in this video and in great unnecessary detail with scope diagrams, but failed, because for all what we know, it didn't stop functioning when it shows the message that the backlight is turned off, as they claimed.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 25, 2015, 09:49:04 am
I start to think that he beleive that as the batteratruc is forcing the output voltage to 1.5V, that why "constant current" form a rectangle, and why only a rectangle is the only way to calculate the remaining power.

I've watched that bit and understand what he's trying to say here (that with CC (with some error) (and CW) you can just read the % remaining from the X axis), and what's he's trying to say is essentially right. But it's a poor way to explain it.

Hum, you mean that for example, if with at a specified constant current or power, the deplete in 100 hour (to make thing simpler) , when we are at 50h of use, basically, it remain 50% of the battery?
Then at 90h it only remain 10%?

Hum make sense in a way

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: _Andrew_ on August 25, 2015, 09:51:11 am
46 minutes of marketing smoke

OK so they have found a device that is susceptible to becoming unstable due to self generated impulse currents pulling down the battery voltage below a voltage at which it can not opperate.

Still right at the beginning they still show footage a battery being tested off load.

Agrees that at an average cut off voltage of 1.1v that there may be for instance be 10% of the battery charge left but then argues about which is the correct part of the curve to look at when determining remaining charge. So agrees that the arguments that have been presented are correct about the amount of remaining charge are correct, wrong and correct.

A point they made clear is that from the outset there clames have made using mathematical models as it was not viable to conduct actual real life testing as it would have taken to long. Funny that, when I have been involved with product development, putting the design through its paces with real life testing has been a vital part of the development.

There still also missing the point that well designed battery operated electronic devices commonly already have boost converters in them to eek out as much life as possible from the batteries. 

I still wonder how many products there going to have to pay for to be repaired or replace when the cells get stuck inside because the sleeves make the cells diameter to wide.

So OK there product probably does function, may assist electronic devices that do not take advantage of boost converters in there design. Where it has got messy is firstly they made to grander clames at the outset, secondly over estimating the typical cutoff voltage (and subsequently the remaining un-used charge), thirdly measuring the battery voltage not under load.

They will probably still sell them, quite possibly on late those night info-mercial channels or re-branded under JML products. Shift a load and then project there future sales on these results, sell the company to someone else, then start another company and launch another product and do the same again.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 25, 2015, 11:14:54 am
Can someone please explain what is happening at 9:20 in the new video? I see a Voltage vs. Time graph (discharge curve), and then the area under the graph representing the "energy left" in the battery? But then he starts drawing milliAmps where the Volt axis is. I'm very confused.

What I understand is that "Volts x Time" is meaningless without understanding the current draw. So it really is "Amps x Time" that is important to rate capacity? MilliAmpHours? Is that what is going on here? And he is saying that he can just use the same 100 mA draw all along the entire voltage discharge curve (whether boosting or limiting) and expect the curve to follow the same curve?

Then later at 10:50 he goes over how higher amperage drawing devices you get worse milliAmpHour ratings due to inefficiencies in the battery (probably chemical reaction inefficiencies due to higher and slower rate and diffusion characteristics of the chemicals in the battery). So lower current draw means longer use of battery which ends up giving you better milliAmpHour rating.

But devices draw the current they need to function, no? Isn't that a product of their internal resistance/load and the voltage being applied to the device? If you want to lower the current draw you will need to have a current limiter which will need to starve the device of current. But how would you know how much to starve it so it still works? And if you are limiting current but increasing voltage, is that the idea behind Batteriser?

So basically, by reducing or "buffering" the current draw by reducing the current pulses/spikes, you reduce the drops in voltage (or "even out" the voltage variations) and therefore keep longer above the cutoff voltage so avoid spikes causing it to shut off. Current sensor and limiter..... Not a voltage booster at all? Just indirectly boosting voltage as a side-effect of sensing voltage and limiting current (while still trying to keep the device working) to keep the battery voltage as high as possible for long as possible?

And so the premise here is that the Batteriser will work best on devices which have more variations or "glitches" in the current draw, versus devices that have very minimal swings in current draw?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 11:20:27 am
Hum, you mean that for example, if with at a specified constant current or power, the deplete in 100 hour (to make thing simpler) , when we are at 50h of use, basically, it remain 50% of the battery?
Then at 90h it only remain 10%?
Hum make sense in a way

For constant power, yes, absolutely, that's how it works. Because battery capacity of measured in Wh, and you are draining at a constant Wh.
Of course, in practice with a boost converter like the Batteriser, nothing will ever be constant power because of the efficiency curve, but that's beside the point here.
For a constant current, no. But as I've shown in a recent video, and on that graph, the slope is fairly linear, but it's a close approximation.
So what he's (I think) getting at is essentially correct. But once again, it's exactly the same thing I've been saying and showing. Nothing new here at all, his point is pointless. And he made no mention of constant power and how that works. Why he'd omit easy and obvious explanation I don't know.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 11:21:31 am
A viewer sent in the real thing!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNNy5COU8AEEgTj.jpg)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pickle9000 on August 25, 2015, 11:24:48 am
Awesome monkey!!!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 25, 2015, 11:49:00 am
A viewer sent in the real thing!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNNy5COU8AEEgTj.jpg)
So the question begs Dave... are you now "A monkey's uncle"?  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 25, 2015, 11:57:00 am
What I understand is that "Volts x Time" is meaningless without understanding the current draw. So it really is "Amps x Time" that is important to rate capacity? MilliAmpHours? Is that what is going on here? And he is saying that he can just use the same 100 mA draw all along the entire voltage discharge curve (whether boosting or limiting) and expect the curve to follow the same curve?
Using the area under the current line would make sense only if the device uses constant current, and even their test with the Garmin device shows rising current, because probably the Garmin device has an internal boost converter and needs constant power, not constant current:
(http://i.imgur.com/00ZrUk6.png)
So for most devices it is wrong to use the constant current chart to estimate battery runtime, but you should use the constant power chart, which you can find in most battery datasheets, too.

They are trying to make the video look scientific, but they are just distracting from the main questions: they don't say anything about the batteriser performance. Just a simple test would be sufficient: How long runs the monkey with normal batteries and with the batteriser? I guess with the batteriser it would run shorter, if it runs at all because of the high current draw, and of course they can't show this.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 25, 2015, 12:29:17 pm
It does look scientific. They almost had me convinced!   :phew:

The most simple summary explanation I can come up with here is that the Batteriser smooths out current draw from the battery, limiting "spikes" or "glitches" as they call them, which in turn results in a SMOOTHER voltage discharge curve whose variations take longer to eventually get close to dipping below the cutoff voltage, thus saving the device from just "powering off suddenly".

But what happens when a device needs a certain current to function? They are basically saying the Batteriser acts like a "power supply" voltage source in that it keeps a constant minimal voltage while somehow being able to supply whatever variation in current is demanded by the product without any dip in voltage.  Assuming it could magically isolate the device and battery so that current draws don't affect battery voltage, where is the extra "energy" coming from?

The Batteriser is tiny, where is it storing a current source that it can release at will whenever the device demands it? So that it protects the battery from seeing that current draw and shields it from having a voltage drop? Or am I over-thinking this? Is it just a matter of boosting the voltage which in turn still results in the same variations in voltage as the current draw varies, but just higher (shifted up) so it doesn't hit a cutoff voltage? Why can I not understand this?  :-//
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on August 25, 2015, 01:04:13 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/ZkQXjK5.gif)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on August 25, 2015, 02:04:38 pm
Hi,

I have a built a circuit that should be fairly representative of the performance of the Batteriser.

I have posted pictures of the board in this thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739648/#msg739648 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739648/#msg739648)


At Vin =1.1, Vout =1.5V, Iout=250mA I measured 81% efficiency.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 02:36:29 pm
But what happens when a device needs a certain current to function? They are basically saying the Batteriser acts like a "power supply" voltage source in that it keeps a constant minimal voltage while somehow being able to supply whatever variation in current is demanded by the product without any dip in voltage.  Assuming it could magically isolate the device and battery so that current draws don't affect battery voltage, where is the extra "energy" coming from?
The Batteriser is tiny, where is it storing a current source that it can release at will whenever the device demands it?

Bingo.
You canna change the laws of physics captain.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: joseph.anand on August 25, 2015, 05:33:25 pm
I think we need to summarize the issues with the Batteriser, and just let it die a natural death. I am attempting to summarize them here. Others can just add to this and we can be done with it.
1. With most decent devices already having boost regulators adding another one in the equation is just a waste of energy.
2. With devices using multiple cells, each cell having a boost regulator is a bad idea. This is why most devices have a single boost regulator for batteries connected in series (or parallel - yet to see devices using batteries in parallel).
3. Most devices use battery voltage to detect the battery level. Now using a batteriser you will have no idea of the actual battery level.

Now the issues with the technicality of their claims:
1. For all their "area under constant current curve nonsense", one needs to estimate the actual energy (in %) left. For a constant current load, you can instead estimate the area under the voltage curve. Simple basic maths W=VI. For those "PhD Professors who are consultants to Batteriser" this is Power= Volts x Current. Power = Energy/Time. 


Other readers can add to this, and bring this to a close. If you can put a point more succinctly than what I have, kindly replace yours with mine. This way  we can actually debunk this as and when the product releases and then we can all with our smug faces gift the Batteriser team with "We told you so" t-shirt.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on August 25, 2015, 05:53:36 pm
I'd like to add:

'There's bugger-all energy left'
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 25, 2015, 06:48:25 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/ZkQXjK5.gif)

Clapping cymbals monkey - A new design for an EEVblog shirt perhaps?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daqq on August 25, 2015, 06:52:33 pm
Their campaign was "successful" so the product will be out.

If they don't have any issues with production.
Or reality or the laws of physics... at the end of the day you'll get a bunch of crappy products that are useful for 20 ppm of products available, make good on their claims only with the right interpretation of weaselspeak.

I'm probably being naive, but it seems a wonderful object lesson in listening to engineers and peer review for the people who bought it, expecting their magic monkeys to last 8 times longer on just as crappy batteries. On the other hand, human stupidity is a VERY deep well...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 25, 2015, 07:02:33 pm
Other readers can add to this, and bring this to a close. If you can put a point more succinctly than what I have, kindly replace yours with mine. This way  we can actually debunk this as and when the product releases and then we can all with our smug faces gift the Batteriser team with "We told you so" t-shirt.

The biggest issue will be that it simply doesn't work as claimed. If it did, they would have shoved a couple up the monkey's butt and showed it coming back to life.

They didn't do that because they can't. This whole product is based on a lie. There's no need for maths and equations if it fails the basic sniff test. Everybody going into nerd-speak is exactly what they want from this video - the nerds aren't their target market.

Keep the argument against them simple. They still haven't actually shown a batteriser working in one of their videos (apart from the Apple keyboard, but they didn't show extended life, only the battery indicator level going up for a few seconds).


Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 25, 2015, 07:13:26 pm
https://youtu.be/95AAOZGjuIc

;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 25, 2015, 07:50:20 pm
Do they mention or show the pulse response of the Batterieser?
Do they mention or show the efficiency response curve of the Battersier?
I fully expected this "be-all end-all" technical videos for "real engineers" to include at least that stuff.
They show some story about a snail in a pit and some numbers.
He clearly does not target engineers and other (useful) higher educated people.

He keeps on targeting his customer base, like other salesmen do.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 25, 2015, 07:59:37 pm
My main problem with Bob and his brother (or even the Chris one) is that they seems to really believe what they are saying...
There are courses for that. Called Law/Sales/Banker/Commercial engineer/Marketing/Poker/Management.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 25, 2015, 08:54:51 pm
https://youtu.be/95AAOZGjuIc (https://youtu.be/95AAOZGjuIc)

;)

Umm... I made a few more videos with this setup...

Firstly, testing without a boost circuit... the boost circuit I ended up using is found here:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/201397293506 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/201397293506)

Modified to output 3.2volts, it happily did 500ma, with down to 1.8volts input (two cells in series) ( I didn't test it beyond this current), I'd measured it to do between 60 and 90% efficiency or so, depending on the input voltage, and output current.

Without the boost circuit, the camera, with forced flash, took 90 photos...

But now, guess how many it too with the boost circuit, using brand new cells?

(I'll upload the first video now, its not very interesting)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on August 25, 2015, 09:06:21 pm
The biggest issue will be that it simply doesn't work as claimed.

Well it does, but you have to decode the marketing B.S. from their claims.

What they are saying is that the Batteriser can tap into the 80% of energy (or voltage using their parlance) still left in alkaline batteries that are thrown away.  Sounds great until you read this paper that they threw at us:

http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)

that does actually claim that SOME batteries contain over 80% of usuable energy left (and actually using accepted scientific principles)

of course they fail to mention the conclusions reached in this paper about WHY practically new batteries are thrown out which have nothing to do with monkeys failing to clap or GPS units screens' dimming.

So technically speaking, using the Batteriser can help you tap into this 80% of remaining energy.  Hell, not sure why they said 80%, the Zinniker paper found that 10% of the batteries in the study had 103% of energy left in them, which by Batteriser standards comprises a "significant" number (you'll have to read the paper for an explanation of why it's >100%)

Of course not doing anything other than taking that recycled battery and sticking it into a TV remote or even a clapping monkey can also help you tap into this 80% of remaining energy.  But that's not the point.  Batteroo is not obligated to tell you that.

Forget the talk about miniaturization and boost converter efficiency and the size of their inductor and whether 0.1mm clearance is enough...they could build a simple battery sleeve and nothing more and it would still meet their claim on the Indiegogo page, about 20% of the time if you get your batteries out of recycle bins in Switzerland from the year 2002.

Hold the presses!

I just went to Rolf Zinniker's site and while I don't speak German (so I have no idea what this is referring to), he's got this image on his site:

(http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/Battere_h250.jpg)

WTF is it with these battery guys and monkeys?  Seriously!  Dave, are you SURE that the proper way to test a battery is NOT with a clapping monkey?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 25, 2015, 09:07:23 pm
The above power converter ha a huge inductor/capacitors compared to batteriser.

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 25, 2015, 09:10:20 pm
The above power converter ha a huge inductor/capacitors compared to batteriser.

Alexander.

Yes it does, impossibly big to fit on top of a aa cell, let alone a AAA...

So do you expect more photos? Less, or the same?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on August 25, 2015, 09:17:08 pm
Without the boost circuit, the camera, with forced flash, took 90 photos...

I hope you are using a camera from no later than 2001 to replicate the data the Batteroo people use to justify their claims.  Wouldn't want any of this modern battery management system rubbish, or lower power memory cards or anything like that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on August 25, 2015, 09:22:21 pm
So do you expect more photos? Less, or the same?

The boost-converter's efficiency is about 80% - 90%, which can be compensated by the fact that the boost converter can drain battery a bit more than the camera can. However, from the battery discharge curves we can see that as the current is increased the total energy available from the battery will be less. So, in this sense you will get less photos with the boost-converter unless the cameras's cut-off voltage is insanely high. I would guess that you got 75 photos instead of 90.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 25, 2015, 09:26:19 pm
Well, with the boost converter, I got zero photos... well, technically one photo, but it never managed to save it, as the current spike from the capacitor charging up for the flash caused a dip in voltage, and the battery cut off to be prematurely triggered...  :-DD

Brilliant!

Of course, the butteriser might be able to do 2 amps without dropping below 1.1volts :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on August 25, 2015, 09:29:19 pm
I hope you are using a camera from no later than 2001 to replicate the data the Batteroo people use to justify their claims. 

Jesting aside, I don't necessarily have a problem with using older hardware as the basis for this kind of test.  After all, people actually do have older cameras around that they still use, so a theoretical device that could extend the life of those products would in fact be useful.  But even by my standards (I'm cheap and keep stuff forever), 2001 is ancient, and more importantly this was pretty much at the beginning of the digital camera revolution.  Purpose built digital cameras only first came out in the very late 90's, and they were probably far more concerned with getting the image sensors and picture storage working, not power management.

It looks like the camera you are using is a probably very adequate for the purpose of this test.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 09:30:09 pm
Of course, the butteriser might be able to do 2 amps without dropping below 1.1volts :-DD

They briefly mentioned 1.5A in a video, but they have provided no evidence of that, no formal specs, no test data, no efficiency curves, no pulse response data, nothing.
We haven't even seen them use it in a high pulse drain device.
So we have absolutely nothing to go on.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 25, 2015, 09:43:19 pm
The above power converter ha a huge inductor/capacitors compared to batteriser.

Alexander.

Yes it does, impossibly big to fit on top of a aa cell, let alone a AAA...

So do you expect more photos? Less, or the same?

I expect batteriser to be worse.

Almost certain their switching frequency must be well in the MHz scale. What about EMI?

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on August 25, 2015, 09:49:28 pm
So we have absolutely nothing to go on.

A perfect scenario in their minds.

It’s amazing how much faq/advertising/videos they can produce and still reveal so little (true) facts.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 25, 2015, 09:57:52 pm
https://youtu.be/U6ZBcU7GJBA

And I'm done with my testing, it just doesn't work!

I've tried two small boost regulators, neither was even able to run the camera.

Unless they're pulling current out of a monkeys butt, it isn't going to work!

It's possible it would have run the camera without a flash, but if it only works in some devices, under some conditions, assuming it actually physically fits, even then you're not going to see any benefit from it!
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 25, 2015, 10:28:22 pm
Hold the presses!

I just went to Peter Zinniker's site and while I don't speak German (so I have no idea what this is referring to), he's got this image on his site:

(http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/Battere_h250.jpg)

WTF is it with these battery guys and monkeys?  Seriously!  Dave, are you SURE that the proper way to test a battery is NOT with a clapping monkey?

The picture on Rolf (not Peter) Zinnikers page is actually just reporting about a company that rents out batteries to you instead of you buying them. The Monkey is their company logo.

McBryce.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 25, 2015, 10:58:07 pm
They briefly mentioned 1.5A in a video, but they have provided no evidence of that, no formal specs, no test data, no efficiency curves, no pulse response data, nothing.
This makes sense and might be possible with a very efficient boost converter and for short peaks without releasing the magic smoke. Why don't they write it in their FAQ page? Obviously the FAQ is wrong: "the Batteriser sleeve is designed to deliver as much current as a battery is able to supply to the device".
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on August 25, 2015, 11:03:00 pm
The picture on Rolf (not Peter) Zinnikers page

Thanks, fixed.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 25, 2015, 11:26:26 pm
It's still a battery related company using a monkey though!  :)

McBryce.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 25, 2015, 11:52:24 pm
Hum, you mean that for example, if with at a specified constant current or power, the deplete in 100 hour (to make thing simpler) , when we are at 50h of use, basically, it remain 50% of the battery?
Then at 90h it only remain 10%?
Hum make sense in a way

For constant power, yes, absolutely, that's how it works. Because battery capacity of measured in Wh, and you are draining at a constant Wh.
Of course, in practice with a boost converter like the Batteriser, nothing will ever be constant power because of the efficiency curve, but that's beside the point here.
For a constant current, no. But as I've shown in a recent video, and on that graph, the slope is fairly linear, but it's a close approximation.
So what he's (I think) getting at is essentially correct. But once again, it's exactly the same thing I've been saying and showing. Nothing new here at all, his point is pointless. And he made no mention of constant power and how that works. Why he'd omit easy and obvious explanation I don't know.

I agree with that for constant power, but the problem is on his drawing it was a "constant current" and not power, as he says "100mA constant current"... So a big fail :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on August 25, 2015, 11:59:44 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/ZkQXjK5.gif)

Clapping cymbals monkey - A new design for an EEVblog shirt perhaps?

I wanted to say they may need a new company logo, but your tshirt idea is nice

 :-DD

And the slogan may say something like "We tap into your underused inner" , or perhaps "Feel 80% better!"
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on August 26, 2015, 12:05:47 am
How is it possible, that a guy with a Ph.D. can show a constant current over time and calls the area under the curve the energy?

That would only be true, if the voltage is constant during this time as well.
But on the same picture he is showing the voltage going down.
So, it is not a constant power and therefore the area under the current curve can not be the energy.
End of story!

And this guy was teaching EE classes?
I feel sorry for the students.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 26, 2015, 12:08:02 am
(http://i.imgur.com/ZkQXjK5.gif)

Clapping cymbals monkey - A new design for an EEVblog shirt perhaps?

I wanted to say they may need a new company logo, but your tshirt idea is nice

 :-DD

And the slogan may say something like "We tap into your underused inner" , or perhaps "Feel 80% better!"

I love your slogan!  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on August 26, 2015, 12:32:42 am
How is it possible, that a guy with a Ph.D. can show a constant current over time and calls the area under the curve the energy?

That would only be true, if the voltage is constant during this time as well.
But on the same picture he is showing the voltage going down.
So, it is not a constant power and therefore the area under the current curve can not be the energy.
End of story!

And this guy was teaching EE classes?
I feel sorry for the students.
Some interesting (https://www.koofers.com/california-state-university-east-bay-csueastbay/instructors/roohparvar-655557/) opinions (http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=671473) of him, presumably(!) by former students, although only on CS courses and no EE ones.  ???
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 26, 2015, 12:35:23 am
Quote
What they are saying is that the Batteriser can tap into the 80% of energy (or voltage using their parlance) still left in alkaline batteries that are thrown away.  Sounds great until you read this paper that they threw at us:

http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)

that does actually claim that SOME batteries contain over 80% of usuable energy left (and actually using accepted scientific principles)

Actually I downloaded the paper and read it. Aside from many grammatical and spelling errors (I assume due to some bad translation) the paper is not very scientific at all. The references are not scientific studies either. There are a few graphs and tables but honestly, this is NOT a scientific paper written by any scientist. This is not even a Masters thesis. It looks like a high-school science project. I've written better papers and studies in 1st year university Physics.

While there may be some validity to the "recycling" study, I am highly skeptical of the actual testing method used to check the batteries, and there is ABSOLUTELY NO history as to the consumer-use scenario for each of the batteries. So who really knows why they were thrown out?

The average consumer would just stick a Batteriser on the battery and it would yield little to no additional benefit to the battery+Batteriser IN THE SAME DEVICE. What the consumer must be educated about is DOWN-CYCLING batteries into lower-current-draining devices.... A step-down approach, WITHOUT any such Batteriser. That requires EDUCATION.... No device to sell at all.

So without addressing the REAL PROBLEM, people will just continue to throw out batteries from high-current drain devices like MOTORIZED TOYS (due to the significant voltage-drops below cutoff) with or without the Batteriser, when with a little education they will label those batteries and keep them handy for their REMOTE CONTROLS and KEYBOARDS and MICE.

 :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 26, 2015, 12:37:17 am
How is it possible, that a guy with a Ph.D. can show a constant current over time and calls the area under the curve the energy?

That would only be true, if the voltage is constant during this time as well.
But on the same picture he is showing the voltage going down.
So, it is not a constant power and therefore the area under the current curve can not be the energy.
End of story!

And this guy was teaching EE classes?
I feel sorry for the students.

Well one of his students has already ruined his chances of ever getting a decent job by featuring in the video.

McBryce.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 26, 2015, 12:41:24 am
How is it possible, that a guy with a Ph.D. can show a constant current over time and calls the area under the curve the energy?

That would only be true, if the voltage is constant during this time as well.
But on the same picture he is showing the voltage going down.
So, it is not a constant power and therefore the area under the current curve can not be the energy.
He doesn't say this. He tries a lot of unrelated weaselspeak. At 9:25 he says "if you really want to know how much is left". He doesn't say "how much energy is left". And of course, for 100 mA constant current, he is right. 50% runtime is left.

PS: I just noticed that at 9:16 in the video he says, "if you use a constant resistor, you can use the area under the curve", which is wrong, because the curve is for constant current, and when the voltage drops, the current would drop, too with a constant resistor.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 26, 2015, 01:13:52 am
Quote
PS: I just noticed that at 9:16 in the video he says, "if you use a constant resistor, you can use the area under the curve", which is wrong, because the curve is for constant current, and when the voltage drops, the current would drop, too with a constant resistor.


V=IR

V/I = R = constant....    V and I would vary proportionally to keep resistance the same?

I watched the video and I have no idea what he is saying, except the Snail problem was nice. What it has to do with anything, I don't know. But he just wants to show how "smart" he is, and how dumb the viewers are who don't get the right answer..... Ergo.... You, the average person viewing his video, who doesn't have 500 patents and can't solve a simple Snail riddle, is not as intelligent and shouldn't be questioning the Batteriser. The video did leave that taste in my mouth and taught us "newbies" a few things about voltage drops during current spikes, but still answered nothing about what happens in real products and what the Batteriser can magically do to the voltage and current that actually makes it last any longer.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 26, 2015, 01:20:14 am
How is it possible, that a guy with a Ph.D. can show a constant current over time and calls the area under the curve the energy?
He doesn't say this. He tries a lot of unrelated weaselspeak. At 9:25 he says "if you really want to know how much is left". He doesn't say "how much energy is left". And of course, for 100 mA constant current, he is right. 50% runtime is left.

Yes, it's a really convoluted thought process. It is technically correct but:

a) Constant current devices will actually waste a LOT of energy if used with a batteriser - the voltage applied to the device will be higher than it needs to be and the excess voltage will be turned directly to heat.

b) His "50%" number is pulled directly from a monkey's butt. He just drew a line on the middle of the chart and said "Look! That's 50% remaining".

If he drew then line at a realistic voltage (eg.) 1.1V then he'd be down in the "about 10% remaining" range, just like before.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 26, 2015, 01:29:35 am
V=IR

V/I = R = constant....    V and I would vary proportionally to keep resistance the same?

Think of a 5V voltage regulator (LM7805) feeding into a 100 Ohm resistor. The output current will be 50mA no matter what the input voltage is (so long as you stay within the working voltage range, obviously). Changes in voltage will only change the amount of heat produced by the regulator.

That's constant current.

I watched the video and I have no idea what he is saying, except the Snail problem was nice.
I got the snail problem right with half a second of thought.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 26, 2015, 01:35:17 am
Quote
PS: I just noticed that at 9:16 in the video he says, "if you use a constant resistor, you can use the area under the curve", which is wrong, because the curve is for constant current, and when the voltage drops, the current would drop, too with a constant resistor.


V=IR

V/I = R = constant....    V and I would vary proportionally to keep resistance the same?
Yes, you could say this. V drops over time and then the current drops, too, because I=V/R, so you can't use the curve on the whiteboard, which is for 100 mA constant current. Even a programmer like me can see this :)
I watched the video and I have no idea what he is saying, except the Snail problem was nice. What it has to do with anything, I don't know. But he just wants to show how "smart" he is, and how dumb the viewers are who don't get the right answer..... Ergo.... You, the average person viewing his video, who doesn't have 500 patents and can't solve a simple Snail riddle, is not as intelligent and shouldn't be questioning the Batteriser.
Better watch Dave's videos to learn things. The Batteriser guy intentionally demonstrates lots of unrelated things in a convoluted way to avoid showing the Batteriser data.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on August 26, 2015, 01:37:03 am
Don't worry, their Tom Foolery won't do much against real world testing with the batteriser once they ship the campaign rewards out.

I chose one with a large number of batterisers, and am planning to mail Dave some to play around with.  (Assuming he didn't already support their campaign himself with the same goal of disproving their bullshit 80% claim)

And IIRC, the level I choose gives me a pretty healthy number of units, so if any serious folks out there want in on the fun, let me know and I can mail a set your way.  (well, once they mail them out, whenever that will be)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 26, 2015, 01:38:11 am
Update: The comments have been re-enabled on the video. My question came back!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 26, 2015, 01:44:57 am
well, once they mail them out, whenever that will be
If they mail them out at all... is there even a guarantees for that on indiegogo?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 26, 2015, 01:51:23 am
Better watch Dave's videos to learn things. The Batteriser guy intentionally demonstrates lots of unrelated things in a convoluted way to avoid showing the Batteriser data.
Yes, except for the first 5 min where Dr. Bob tells us his resume and how many patents he has his name on, it was 40 minutes of confusing pointless waffling, even if mostly technically correct (still not sure about the energy under the graph part). Nothing at all about the performance or construction of the batteriser itself. :=\
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 26, 2015, 01:56:26 am
well, once they mail them out, whenever that will be
If they mail them out at all... is there even a guarantees for that on indiegogo?
I don't think there's a garantee of that on any crowdfunding site.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 26, 2015, 02:01:23 am
I don't think there's a garantee of that on any crowdfunding site.
Can't you even get a refund in that case?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 26, 2015, 02:05:08 am
I chose one with a large number of batterisers, and am planning to mail Dave some to play around with.  (Assuming he didn't already support their campaign himself with the same goal of disproving their bullshit 80% claim)
I think we should start a pool for betting on the conversion efficiency. We could pick a few output currents and whoever gets the closest wins a prize (or something).

10mA output with 1.1V input? I'll say 90% efficient.
50mA output with 1.1V input? I'll say 83%
100mA output with 1.1V input? Only 72% efficient with that tiny inductor.
200mA output with 1.1V input? 55%.
500mA output with 1.1V input? 20% if it even manages to maintain 1.5V output (I have my doubts)

Edit: Just remembered this is a forum full of engineers  :scared:

No cheating by using SPICE or whatever. What does your gut feeling tell you?

(Or post two answers, gut feeling first then SPICE afterwards...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 26, 2015, 02:07:41 am
I don't think there's a garantee of that on any crowdfunding site.
Can't you even get a refund in that case?
Nope. This isn't a grocery store.

You're supposed to evaluate the credibility of the campaign before buyingsending any money.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 26, 2015, 02:48:34 am
I still see now way they can bring this into mass-production with about *only* $300,000. They are definitely relying on the $1 million+ from Investors to get this rolled out. And they expect this by November? What planet are we living on?

What REALLY seems to be going on here is that everything was already made... 2-3 years ago, and the crowd-funding is all a publicity-making machine. Seems like it is all done... So the question is, who bank-rolled the actual development? Possibly some INVESTOR GROUP that wants to cash out. And is this crowd-funding campaign forced by the Investors to somehow raise enough capital (or so were the hopes) to get their money and bail out, leaving the public crowd-funders holding the bag?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on August 26, 2015, 02:53:34 am
How is it possible, that a guy with a Ph.D. can show a constant current over time and calls the area under the curve the energy?

That would only be true, if the voltage is constant during this time as well.
But on the same picture he is showing the voltage going down.
So, it is not a constant power and therefore the area under the current curve can not be the energy.
He doesn't say this. He tries a lot of unrelated weaselspeak. At 9:25 he says "if you really want to know how much is left". He doesn't say "how much energy is left". And of course, for 100 mA constant current, he is right. 50% runtime is left.

PS: I just noticed that at 9:16 in the video he says, "if you use a constant resistor, you can use the area under the curve", which is wrong, because the curve is for constant current, and when the voltage drops, the current would drop, too with a constant resistor.
Yes, may be ... but...
Well, at 14:: to 14:14 he clearly points to it as "Energy" under the curve.

This guy really must believe that we all are belonging to the 90% group of the people that he believes do not get the riddle.
There are so many flaws in this video, it really is embarrassing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on August 26, 2015, 03:19:45 am
Now THAT is strange...just went to watch Dave's Maker Faire interviews video and the entire 46 minute Batteriser video came up as the ad!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 26, 2015, 03:21:23 am
Quote
This guy really must believe that we all are belonging to the 90% group of the people that he believes do not get the riddle.


First time I didn't get the riddle..  |O      :palm:     Need to wake up my brain cells.   :=\   Good thing I'm not developing the Batteriser then.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 26, 2015, 04:08:25 am
Eventually got around to do some quick tests of battery operated gadgets from around the house. :-/O

Couldn't find so many though, most stuff uses Lithium rechargeable these days:Looks like I won't be needing a Batteriser. :phew:
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 26, 2015, 04:13:02 am
Update: The comments have been re-enabled on the video. My question came back!
It's must have been a mistake that it was disabled. After all Franky specifically asked for our reactions at the end of the video..

Or they just want to get more traffic to the video, to get a higher ranking in the search results on youtube.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hugoneus on August 26, 2015, 05:20:49 am
Update: The comments have been re-enabled on the video. My question came back!
It's must have been a mistake that it was disabled. After all Franky specifically asked for our reactions at the end of the video..
Or they just want to get more traffic to the video, to get a higher ranking in the search results on youtube.

I don't see any actual comments.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 26, 2015, 05:33:45 am
There used to be comments on the others videos. Not anymore.

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 26, 2015, 05:44:24 am
Looks like they deleted all comments. I just tested it on one of my videos: if you turn off comments and then turn it on again, the comments are still there.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on August 26, 2015, 05:45:31 am
Dave, I see a bright future for you doing due-diligence for VC's.  :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 26, 2015, 05:49:24 am
Dave, I see a bright future for you doing due-diligence for VC's.  :)

The only problem is that virtually no VC wants that. The major issue with the Batteriser is not that it won't help, but that it was so easily shown to be a boobyhatch.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 26, 2015, 06:21:40 am
I agree. Venture Capitalists are interested in a return on their investment.... not whether something actually works or not. They are only interested in getting back their money with interest and throwing on to the next chum (whether it be other public investors, crowd-funders, another company) to sort it all out.

I think the biggest blunder Batteriser did was then probably to crowd-fund their product. They should have just launched with "TV INFOMMERCIALS" and made money the old fashioned way, without anyone ever having the opportunity or time to critique it. I can see it now... 

"Call now, for a limited time you can get yours for only $9.99. But wait, there's more! And it's not sold in any store! If you are one of the first to call, you will not only get 1 Batteriser... But 2! Yes! Double your order! Not satisfied? We will also throw in this battery tester valued at over $20. Oh hold on... We are going crazy here at the factory. We are willing to give you not 2, but 4! Yes 4! If you call in the next 10 minutes! Do it now before this incredible offer disappears forever! You get 4 Batterisers each valued at $9.99, a battery tester for $20, a total value of almost $60..... All yours for ONLY $9.99 (plus shipping and handling of $14.99 and sales taxes not included)."

 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on August 26, 2015, 07:04:57 am
Now THAT is strange...just went to watch Dave's Maker Faire interviews video and the entire 46 minute Batteriser video came up as the ad!

AHAHAHAHAHAHA good joke, would be pretty sweet if it was true tho haha
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 26, 2015, 07:13:44 am
Now THAT is strange...just went to watch Dave's Maker Faire interviews video and the entire 46 minute Batteriser video came up as the ad!

AHAHAHAHAHAHA good joke, would be pretty sweet if it was true tho haha

Google serves up ads based on your profile, so perhaps if we are all typing and searching for Batteriser a lot, there is an opportunity for Batteriser to show up in ads of videos we watch. Batteriser can also target specific keywords for advertising. However funny that would be, I don't think it is worth it for them to spend that kind of money to appear on pages and sites and videos that actual Engineers are watching who know what they are doing. So likely a fluke with your browser shortcut or cache, and not Google or YouTube. :-)
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 26, 2015, 07:30:52 am
What REALLY seems to be going on here is that everything was already made... 2-3 years ago, and the crowd-funding is all a publicity-making machine.

I don't think so.... the lack of a functional AAA version, and the fact that I'm still pretty sure it physically can't be done, makes me believe that nothing is in production, and will never be in production...
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 26, 2015, 08:55:47 am
What REALLY seems to be going on here is that everything was already made... 2-3 years ago, and the crowd-funding is all a publicity-making machine. Seems like it is all done...

If that is the case then why don't they have real final units to show the media. At least one report from a journalist I've spoken to said the prototype failed in two devices he tried, and they struck it up to being a prototype issue that will be sorted out in production.
Also, if it's already finished, why isn't there any technical data released at all?
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 26, 2015, 08:59:27 am
It's must have been a mistake that it was disabled. After all Franky specifically asked for our reactions at the end of the video..
Or they just want to get more traffic to the video, to get a higher ranking in the search results on youtube.

Well, they got their feedback, 77 thumbs down to 16 thumbs up so far.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on August 26, 2015, 09:07:05 am
Now THAT is strange...just went to watch Dave's Maker Faire interviews video and the entire 46 minute Batteriser video came up as the ad!

AHAHAHAHAHAHA good joke, would be pretty sweet if it was true tho haha

Google serves up ads based on your profile, so perhaps if we are all typing and searching for Batteriser a lot, there is an opportunity for Batteriser to show up in ads of videos we watch. Batteriser can also target specific keywords for advertising. However funny that would be, I don't think it is worth it for them to spend that kind of money to appear on pages and sites and videos that actual Engineers are watching who know what they are doing. So likely a fluke with your browser shortcut or cache, and not Google or YouTube. :-)

Absolutely no joke.  I honestly thought Dave was doing a spoof or something, and then I thought I accidentally clicked the wrong video--I was amazed to see actual comments posted given they had disabled them, but couldn't figure out why people were asking about where to get scale mail on a Batteriser video.  That's when I realized it was their ad.

I'm not surprised that it fed me that ad with all the reloads of the GPS video I had been doing to look at comments.  I AM surprised that "Batteroo Batteriser", who disclaims that they are in no way associated with Batteroo, the company that makes Batteriser, would pay $$$, and probably some very serious $$$, to run that video as an ad.  I've never advertised on YouTube, so not sure if there is a premium for longer ads and whether they are charged by how long the viewer watched.  But if so, I hope I cost them some coin as I let it run while I took the screen shot and posted the last post.

I guess it's official though:  Dave, you officially have financially benefited from the Batteriser!

BTW, I doubt that advertisers have too much control over what videos their ads appear on.  It all comes down to what Google/YouTube thinks the viewer is going to want to see based on their browsing history.  Kind of like how Dave's Batteriser vids pop up as the recommended videos for the Batteriser videos.  I watch a lot of Electric Vehicle videos and the ads that come up there are usually for huge Chevy trucks, exactly the opposite type of vehicle I would be interested in, but Google/YouTube is not smart enough to figure that distinction out.
Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on August 26, 2015, 09:32:00 am
What REALLY seems to be going on here is that everything was already made... 2-3 years ago, and the crowd-funding is all a publicity-making machine. Seems like it is all done...

If that is the case then why don't they have real final units to show the media. At least one report from a journalist I've spoken to said the prototype failed in two devices he tried, and they struck it up to being a prototype issue that will be sorted out in production.
Also, if it's already finished, why isn't there any technical data released at all?

I am not surprised that the prototype failed in the device that he tried in. Here are some measurement that I made on my boost converter circuit based on the LTC3539 chip.

First I measured the current consumption of a Fuji Camera, I am not sure of the model, but at least five years old, it use and XD card.

Here is the current consumption while taken a picture with the flash on. The current is 200mA measured with a Tektronix TCP202 dc current probe:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=167734;image)


Same setup without using the flash:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=167736;image)

And the current drawn during start up:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=167738;image)

If I zoom into the peak, I see this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=167740;image)


The batteriser needs to be able supply about 1A of peak current if used in this camera.

So now I know what the peak current looks like I can use an electronic load.

This picture shows the battery terminal (input), blue trace, using the boost circuit:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=167742;image)


Without the boost circuit, the battery terminal voltage looks like this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=