EEVblog Electronics Community Forum

EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 03:02:54 am

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 03:02:54 am

Dave introduces his Product Baloney Detection Kit, and offers a step-by-step how-to tutorial guide to debunking wild marketing claims on tech products.
In this case the Batteriser, a boost converter that fits around ordinary AA batteries which claims to increase the battery life by up to 800%.
Does it live up to the hype?
http://www.batteriser.com/ (http://www.batteriser.com/)
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html)

Another dunking here on the Neurologica blog:
http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/batteriser-cool-tech-or-scam/ (http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/batteriser-cool-tech-or-scam/)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iEshd6izgk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iEshd6izgk)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 03:22:03 am

Sorry about the length  :( you know I planed 10 minutes  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tombi on June 05, 2015, 03:34:44 am

BOOBIES on the calculator.  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: station240 on June 05, 2015, 03:58:20 am

I figured out the losses in the boost convertor would cancel out the gain of lost battery capacity, before Dave got to that point. Couldn't stop laughing.
Battery capacity 80% => 100%
Efficiency 100% => 80% (or less)
Losses 20% => 20% (or worse)

100% efficient at converting your money into junk you don't need.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on June 05, 2015, 04:24:15 am

Dave -
I'd suggest you add a 20 second introduction before the main video that summarises three or four key points for both arguments - so you can say you've been objective in the best and worst cases.    Up-to, as much as, could, might, should  -- are all 'weasel words'; that have no legal standing!

On the up-side, you've 'possibly' saved them 'up to' $millions in insurance and damage claims to users that installed the product in the wrong products, or the wrong way around!

Edited 18:00 - less word!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: calexanian on June 05, 2015, 04:52:39 am

That prof should not be allowed to teach anymore..  Clearly he is not teaching critical thinking to his students if he cannot practice it himself.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Razor512 on June 05, 2015, 06:12:22 am

If the product comes out, can you test it to measure the max current output?

While the claim is complete BS, I do like the boost conversion for use in unregulated flash lights.

PS, some of the cheap china market wireless mice will run down to 0.9V with no problem.

I would like to see a version with an adjustable cutoff to work with rechargeable batteries.

PS, I prefer the longer form videos.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on June 05, 2015, 06:26:44 am

I knew ONE product which cut of at 1.4V to 1.3V.
Its the ca. 10 to 15 year old digital camera.
It dont run at accumulators because of the drop out voltage.
This thing eats bateries like crazy.

But this product wouldnt be useable because 2 things:
* The clip dont fit in the housing.
* The current this camera is needet is up to multible amps.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: NigelSmith on June 05, 2015, 06:44:39 am

Hello everybody,

Firstly i'm a big fan of EEVblog and Dave's unique presenting style!

Watched the video this morning and I have to agree with nearly all points presented with one exception, where Dave comments regarding the efficiency of the boost converter circuitry being at best 90% - 95% efficient (the losses becoming heat) and at worst could be down to as little efficiency as only 50% depending upon application.

Dave states that in some applications this device could actually reduce battery life of a product, well theoretically yes it could, but only if you put the stupid batteriser on the battery in the first place!

As long as you only use it once the device has decided that the battery is dead the batteriser can only extend battery life and not actually reduce it at all!

I have made no actual calculations but I personally can't imagine it ever getting more than an extra 10% capacity out of a battery, I can't imagine anywhere near their delusional 800%.

(I have no specific financial interest in the product or its development company, just thought I should point out this obvious fact)

I know this will make the product more awkward as it will need to be carried around separately and then used once the battery is deemed to be flat as opposed to just using it on a new battery, but even their bullshit promotional video shows it being used this way.

Finally no specific comments on the size of the thing, granted it might be very small and thin... but it will definitely extend the length of the battery by, I'm guessing 0.5 - 1.0 mm maybe more, well I have several products where the battery contacts are a tight fit on a standard (non batterised) battery, so how many products this stupid device will actually fit into remains to be seen.

In summary I still agree with Dave, the product isn't worth wasting any money on, but in one area I think he was a little harsh. Quite obviously someone has wasted a huge amount of time and money developing this ridiculous product, so naturally, they have now produced some marketing 'hype' tosh to try and sell as many as possible!

Keep up the good work Dave!

Nigel

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on June 05, 2015, 06:52:51 am

I have a test device if you need it, Canon Powershor SX-100is, drops out at 1.42 volt per cell, hardly works at all on rechargeables, specs say around 140 shots on alkaline and 400 on NMiH. Really Canon where did you get them there numbers from you stupid pack of morons. It's only saving grace is that it has an external power jack so I can still get some use out of it on a 18650. Works on the new Energiser Ultimate Lithium but only because the initial voltage is around 1.8 volt.

Good job Canon lost me forever. :--
I regain the unused 80 odd percent in my old AA Maglights and other toys.

Muttley

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 07:05:14 am

Quote from: NigelSmith on June 05, 2015, 06:44:39 am

Watched the video this morning and I have to agree with nearly all points presented with one exception, where Dave comments regarding the efficiency of the boost converter circuitry being at best 90% - 95% efficient (the losses becoming heat) and at worst could be down to as little efficiency as only 50% depending upon application.

Pretty sure I mentioned that.

Quote

Dave states that in some applications this device could actually reduce battery life of a product, well theoretically yes it could, but only if you put the stupid batteriser on the battery in the first place!
As long as you only use it once the device has decided that the battery is dead the batteriser can only extend battery life and not actually reduce it at all!

They say on their website:

Quote

1. Extend Battery Life. Batteriser’s patented technology extends the life of your batteries up to 8x.
2. Works On Most “Used” Batteries Too. Take those batteries out of the trash and instantly extend their life up to 8x.

So it seems they envisage the main usage scenario to be used with new batteries.
If you don only use it with "dead" batteries to get some extra life, then there is certainly some benefit to that in probably the majority of cases.

Quote

Finally no specific comments on the size of the thing, granted it might be very small and thin... but it will definitely extend the length of the battery by, I'm guessing 0.5 - 1.0 mm maybe more, well I have several products where the battery contacts are a tight fit on a standard (non batterised) battery, so how many products this stupid device will actually fit into remains to be seen.

I'd love to see the finished product, and it would be intriguing to see how they have miniaturised the converter.
Guess we have to wait for the Indigogo campaign to order one?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 07:07:23 am

Quote from: Razor512 on June 05, 2015, 06:12:22 am

If the product comes out, can you test it to measure the max current output?

Yes, I'll order one when it comes out.
I'm curious to see its performance.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on June 05, 2015, 07:08:33 am

I dunno, I think they'll try to productise it through crowd-funding - no open source sharing.
a company, university etc...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 07:13:07 am

Quote from: SL4P on June 05, 2015, 07:08:33 am

I dunno, I think they'll try to productise it through crowd-funding

Yes, the article says they will be putting it on Indiegogo.
Not sure why they don't use Kickstarter? they obviously have a real prototype, so satisfies the requirement.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on June 05, 2015, 07:16:03 am

Aah, I didn't see that.  Was it in the PCworld article - I didn't go into that.
That may dissuade them from legal paths, if they don't have 'real' money!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 07:23:02 am

Quote from: SL4P on June 05, 2015, 07:16:03 am

Aah, I didn't see that.  Was it in the PCworld article - I didn't go into that.

Yes, the PC World article:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html)
I'll back it when it goes live in late June. Delivery slated for September.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on June 05, 2015, 07:25:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 07:13:07 am

Quote from: SL4P on June 05, 2015, 07:08:33 am

I dunno, I think they'll try to productise it through crowd-funding

Yes, the article says they will be putting it on Indiegogo.
Not sure why they don't use Kickstarter? they obviously have a real prototype, so satisfies the requirement.

Maybe they assume there must be more gullible "funders" on Indiegogo since there's more questionable projects to be found there? ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on June 05, 2015, 07:26:56 am

Gotta say that I love the way you rip the heart out of these get-rich-quick shysters.
Soon you'll have them contacting you before they promote products - so they might catch fundamental flaws before they make fools of themselves!!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 07:31:04 am

Quote from: janekm on June 05, 2015, 07:25:19 am

Maybe they assume there must be more gullible "funders" on Indiegogo since there's more questionable projects to be found there? ;)

I think they'd do a lot better on Kickstarter. It's more credible than Indiegogo and has a much larger user base.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on June 05, 2015, 07:32:02 am

Not any more - after your review!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daqq on June 05, 2015, 07:32:36 am

Dave: I love these debunking videos of yours! Thanks!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 07:36:17 am

Quote from: SL4P on June 05, 2015, 07:26:56 am

Soon you'll have them contacting you before they promote products - so they might catch fundamental flaws before they make fools of themselves!!

I've already had quite a few crowd funding campaigns do that actually.
Batteroo are most welcome to send a pre-release one into the Mailbag segment.
I suspect the campaign, even on Indiegogo will be a winner. It's price point is just too compelling for people not to try it.
And it's likely true that you would get your money back in power saved if you used it on just dead batteries.
That doesn't stop the downsides of course, but many will look at it from just that perspective.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 07:46:06 am

Quote from: SL4P on June 05, 2015, 07:32:02 am

Not any more - after your review!

Nope, my video will amount to a hill of beans. Target audience for this product is Joe Average, and not electronics design people on my channel. Electronics people can instantly see the many downsides to it, so likely never would have bought it.
You wait, the campaign will go bangbusters.
Actually, I want it to get funded so I can actually get one to check out the miniaturisation and how they are doing that.

IMO they would have been far better off putting it in a clip on attachment for 9V batteries somehow . That is more of a problem than AA/AAA powered devices, and the batteries are more expensive. Plus potentially more room for bigger and better magnetics, less maximum current requirement, and no shorting problem.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on June 05, 2015, 08:01:13 am

When I first saw this thread, it reminded me of a gadget I intended to develop - primarily for kids toys... but almost anything that 'gets left on'...  exactly the same form factor.

A one-shot that turns a FET on with the power switch, and while 'in range' current consumption. (C)2005. MDC/SL4P

If the unit is idle, or over-current for more than a hard-coded period (e.g. idle 2 mins, over-current 5 secs), it shuts off until the power supply is recycled.
Save batteries and kids from grinding their toys to death!

Unfortunately, my situation has me dead in their water for the last few years - so these ideas are just a dream now.  I'll share if someone else's wants to do it!    Call me!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 08:06:54 am

Quote from: NigelSmith on June 05, 2015, 06:44:39 am

Finally no specific comments on the size of the thing, granted it might be very small and thin... but it will definitely extend the length of the battery by, I'm guessing 0.5 - 1.0 mm maybe more, well I have several products where the battery contacts are a tight fit on a standard (non batterised) battery, so how many products this stupid device will actually fit into remains to be seen.

Yes, remains to be seen what the production version can and can't fit into. If it's 0.1mm as claimed then that should be good enough for a majority of products?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: G7PSK on June 05, 2015, 08:15:57 am

I find that many products battery holders are already a tight fit for the battery so the extra length from one of these will prevent the insertion of the battery.
At one time (in the 60's) I used U2 (D size now) in a torch and when the bulb dimmed to a point where the torch was useless I would put the batteries into a transistor radio which would run for month's on what was otherwise a dead set of batteries, this was down to the inherent rise in internal resistance of the batteries of the time. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on June 05, 2015, 08:17:44 am

I didn't read the literature but if the technology is so good then why stay small,
example ; Solar System Batteries, Rechargeable Cars, UPS Batteries. etc.

Did somebody mention a dastardly plan..... :-//

Muttley

Miniature, yes now I see, anyway I got a good dig at Canon, been wanting to get that out for a while.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 08:19:47 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on June 05, 2015, 08:17:44 am

I didn't read the literature but if the technology is so good then why stay small,
example ; Solar System Batteries, Rechargeable Cars, UPS Batteries. etc.

Their key tech seems to be in ultra militarisation, something you don't really need for that big boy stuff.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: fubar.gr on June 05, 2015, 08:35:45 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on June 05, 2015, 08:17:44 am

I didn't read the literature but if the technology is so good then why stay small,
example ; Solar System Batteries, Rechargeable Cars, UPS Batteries. etc.

Did somebody mention a dastardly plan..... :-//

Muttley

Miniature, yes now I see, anyway I got a good dig at Canon, been wanting to get that out for a while.

The whole concept is about draining the last drop out of primary batteries. Doing that on rechargeables doesnt make sense. It would simply kill the battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: coppice on June 05, 2015, 08:45:11 am

Quote from: calexanian on June 05, 2015, 04:52:39 am

That prof should not be allowed to teach anymore..  Clearly he is not teaching critical thinking to his students if he cannot practice it himself.

If you applied a little critical thinking you should realise that you have no idea of the context in which that professor said anything.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Zeph on June 05, 2015, 08:45:38 am

There are a few issues you didn't mention.

As you have described, most devices will work down to 1.0-1.1v/cell. 

Consider (using simple figures) a battery depleted to 1.0v/cell and still working in the device, at say 100ma.  Insert the batterizer and the voltage gets boosted to 1.5v/cell - but that extra 0.5V/cell is probably going to be wasted as heat!  Meanwhile even if the boost converter was 100% efficient, you'd be draining the battery at 150ma@1v to produce 100ma@1.5v with the device using only 1.0v of that - a major efficiency loss!  Add in real world boost converter efficiency (in such a tiny space at such a low cost) and the situation is probably much worse, say 200 to 300ma (75-50% boost efficiency)  from the battery to produce 100ma to the device.

And it gets worse.  With that 150-300ma coming from the battery, you waste more power as heat through the battery's ESR resistance, and due to that and battery chemistry the battery voltage drops further, raising the input/output current ratios further even at the same boost efficiency, but the boost efficiency probably decreases as well.

And - look at the battery curves - as you increase the current drawn, you move to the steeper discharge curves on the left.  You show the wasted power as the area to the right of the cutoff voltage box *at the same current*, but instead consider transposing the steeper curves to that location (to the right of the box).

In the best case, the device itself is using a switching regulator, such that it will draw less current as the input voltage rises, so not all of that extra voltage (eg: raising battery 1.0v up to 1.5v to device) is wasted as heat.  But then we have the tiny Batterizer switching regulator feeding the device switching regulator; even in this best case, you are wasting power rather than saving it.

The only niche I can see is an old device which really does need 1.4v/cell input, where even will all the losses of the Batterizer, you might actually get enough gain from extracting more battery juice to have a modest net gain in total results.  Not 800% of course.

And - discharging the cells to low voltage may make them more likely to leak.  Not as bad aa pitfall s the shorting you mention (or mechanically jamming in tight battery cases), but another downside.

---

One other niche - using 1.2v rechargables in a device which needs higher voltage (at modest currents).  We all know of some devices which haven't worked well with rechargeables, so this is a more common use case.  However if it really discharges the battery to 0.6v, that's going to damage some rechargables.  If this boosted 1.0-1.3v to 1.5v with high efficiency and cut off at 1.0v (or 1.1 or 1.05v) to protect the battery, it might actually have a meaningful use, oddly enough - adapting some devices to use NiMH batteries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on June 05, 2015, 08:49:46 am

@fubar.gr
Yes, you make a fair point, I just thought that if you were going to milk a battery to death then why not go the whole hog.

Muttley

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: KedasProbe on June 05, 2015, 09:23:25 am

Quote from: tombi on June 05, 2015, 03:34:44 am

BOOBIES on the calculator.  :-+

Baloney! they are not real.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rerouter on June 05, 2015, 09:43:10 am

how easily recognizable the sound of someone performing a face-palm is via audio only has made me reflect on the people i spend time with...

If the battery has already drained below the low voltage cutoff, then and only then would i support the product, and they entirely could have marketed it as that and still made a profit (maybe less of one), if its efficiency at very low loads isnt too horrible, i may even buy one, just disappointing in the marketing approach,

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on June 05, 2015, 10:17:27 am

great video Dave  :-+

will be interesting to see these tested... properly

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 10:29:30 am

Quote from: Rerouter on June 05, 2015, 09:43:10 am

If the battery has already drained below the low voltage cutoff, then and only then would i support the product, and they entirely could have marketed it as that and still made a profit (maybe less of one), if its efficiency at very low loads isnt too horrible, i may even buy one, just disappointing in the marketing approach,

I agree. Could have been a successful without all the exaggeration. People sell boost converters like this, just not in this funky form factor, that alone would put them a head in this game.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 10:30:03 am

Quote from: dexters_lab on June 05, 2015, 10:17:27 am

will be interesting to see these tested... properly

Delivery in September apparently.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ErikI on June 05, 2015, 10:34:14 am

Maybe someone has mentioned it and I missed it, but there is another downside to this product.
As most of the battery indicators and low battery warning systems are based on measuring the voltage of the battery, they will not work anymore due to the 1.5V constant voltage.
So you will get no warning that your battery is close to being dead and the device will just die suddenly.
A major downside in my mind.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 10:45:37 am

Quote from: ErikI on June 05, 2015, 10:34:14 am

So you will get no warning that your battery is close to being dead and the device will just die suddenly.
A major downside in my mind.

Yes, I forgot to mention this. i added it in annotation. I agree, a huge downside, your product will show 100% battery and then just fail instantly.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: good_cap/bad_cap on June 05, 2015, 10:48:15 am

I think leakage could be another issue if you run down batteries that low... (?) It could damage both the batteriser and the device drive by it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on June 05, 2015, 10:49:31 am

I wonder if I'm the only one to notice that even the basic mathematics are wrong?
If "usually" 80% are thrown away and this product could use all of these remaining 80%, it would extend the battery life from 20% to 100%.
This is a factor of 5, not 8. When we use a comparative as in "more" (capacity) or "longer" (time), the original capacity/runtime would be extended by 400%.

E.g. let's assume a toy bunny that could drum 100 hours if every bit of capacity in its batteries was used, but because of the 20% assumption it would "usually" stop after 20 hours.
Now with the magic device, the bunny could drum 100 hours, which means that it can drum five time as long:
The improved capacity would be 500% of the originally usable capacity.
However, if we are talking about much longer the bunny can drum, it's 80 hours longer which is a plus of 400%:
The capacity would be improved by 400% of the originally usable capacity.

Even ignoring all the other stuff, there is no way that the runtime of any device could be increased by 800% with the "only 20% used" assumption.
To justify a "8 times as long" claim, the usable capacity would have to be 12.5% (100%/8).
To justify a "8 times longer" claim, the usable capacity would have to be 11.11% (100%/9).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on June 05, 2015, 10:59:54 am

I think that the specific application would need to be considered, for instance if I were 1500 meters from a recharging station and couldn't get a tow then I would  have no hesitation in pressing the ULDO Bypass button, and neither would Scotty if the captain needed phasers.

Muttley

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on June 05, 2015, 12:30:53 pm

Related:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/energy-harvesting-of-used-batteries/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/energy-harvesting-of-used-batteries/)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/batteryvampire/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/batteryvampire/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on June 05, 2015, 01:33:38 pm

Great video Dave. Classic EEVblog! 😀

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: VK3DRB on June 05, 2015, 02:17:53 pm

From http://www.recyclinginternational.com/recycling-news/8815/e-scrap-and-batteries/united-states/bringing-used-batteries-back-dead (http://www.recyclinginternational.com/recycling-news/8815/e-scrap-and-batteries/united-states/bringing-used-batteries-back-dead)

"This innovation could spell bad news for a world battery industry worth nearly US$ 90 billion. It also has the potential, say the researchers, to shrink the annual volume of battery waste in landfills by a factor of eight." These "researchers" or the media are speaking frogshit.

It reminded me of the famous car racing driver Peter Brock and his :bullshit: Energy Polarizer. He believed the Energy Polariser (containing crystals and a magnet) would align the molecules of the car. :-DD

More frogshit...
A bloke down the road actually told me that Herbal Life products cures cancer, but the doctors are all keeping it secret because they would lose money from the cancer business.  :palm:
An ELECTRONIC ENGINEER told me flaxseed oil cures cancer, but the doctors are all keeping it secret because they would lose money from the cancer business. :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: zapta on June 05, 2015, 02:38:49 pm

Dave, at the ~6.20 mark you ignored the '... to many devices' part of the sentence.

Another saving can come from lower current at the high voltage period of the battery life, assuming high dc/dc efficiency.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Artlav on June 05, 2015, 03:48:58 pm

I wonder why haven't they made a real product instead, namely boosting a NiMH battery from 1.2V to 1.4V?

Many things don't work too well on rechargeables, and many people don't pay attention to them enough to stop using them before they are below the safe discharge voltage.

Make a Batteriser-like clip on for a rechargeable battery that boosts it to 1.4V and cuts off at 0.8V cell voltage, and you'd have a real, good and useful product that will easily extend rechargeable battery total life by a couple factors on average, and discharge time by a good fraction quite likely.

Instead, they go for a pure scam.
Just why...?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ebastler on June 05, 2015, 04:11:36 pm

Hey, I am convinced the Batteriser will work as advertised! Just look at their claim 1 of their patent application, https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943 (https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943):

Quote

A battery sleeve for extending the operational life of one or more batteries, comprising:
a positive conductive electrode; and
an insulating layer extending below the conductive electrode such that when the sleeve is coupled to a battery, the positive conductive electrode is positioned above the positive terminal of the battery with the insulating layer electrically isolating the positive conductive electrode from the positive terminal of the battery.

Just insert an insulator between the battery terminal and the connected device. Darn if that doesn't extend the battery life by at least 800%! :-DD

(Yes, I know. It's just a patent application, and you always start with ridiculously broad claims -- gotta try what you can get away with... But I have not seen a claim construction this ridiculuos in a while!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tchicago on June 05, 2015, 04:26:33 pm

Folks, remember good ole days of cell phone "antenna boosters"? When every single average Joe was truly convinced that attaching a sticker to the cellphone was drastically improving the cellphone reception. And it was impossible to prove otherwise, because "my cell reception just became a lot better". Oh, yeah, and you were supposed to attach the sticker under the battery.

Those were the days... and they are coming back. There is some psychological phenomenon of trying to justify a purchase even if it was a complete mistake. Bread and butter for scammers of all kinds.

V2 product will probably be inserted between the smartphone battery and the smartphone.  :-DD  The smartphone discharge pattern is highly randomized by a lot of external factors, so even though the device will do exactly nothing, it will be hard to make a valid before/after battery life comparison outside the electronics lab.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: erfly44 on June 05, 2015, 05:03:05 pm

Hi Dave, and all,

I do agree with Zeph, the more the current drawn, the more the ESR resistance effect degrade the performance of the Alkaline battery.

So the test with a lab power supply doesn't reflect the reality.

For example, my Sony TCD-D8 indicates 'low battery' when the voltage of the cells is between 1,284V and 1,288V!!!
http://synthelectro-fr.blogspot.fr/2015/05/alternatives-aux-piles-alcalines-15v.html (http://synthelectro-fr.blogspot.fr/2015/05/alternatives-aux-piles-alcalines-15v.html) (in French, sorry)

In fact, when the device use a lot of milli Amps, for example greather than 100mA, NEVER use Alkaline Battery but
lithium battery, the power density and the constant voltage is incredibly better!

For very low power devices like remote control, low power hf like NRF components, you can use Alkaline battery,
and better, the very low cost battery because they fall very quickly under 1.1V, so you are sure to use it TOTALLY,
that is never the case of the Duracell...

And about the Batteriser? The problem isn't there, but I am curious about the suite!

And Dave : I like a lot your work and never miss a video  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on June 05, 2015, 05:03:43 pm

Quote from: tchicago on June 05, 2015, 04:26:33 pm

Oh, yeah, and you were supposed to attach the sticker under the battery.

I thought these stickers got sold to protect the brain of the user!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on June 05, 2015, 05:18:45 pm

Quote from: HighVoltage on June 05, 2015, 05:03:43 pm

Quote from: tchicago on June 05, 2015, 04:26:33 pm

Oh, yeah, and you were supposed to attach the sticker under the battery.

I thought these stickers got sold to protect the brain of the user!

Both, and it was the same sticker!  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on June 05, 2015, 05:24:58 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 08:19:47 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on June 05, 2015, 08:17:44 am

I didn't read the literature but if the technology is so good then why stay small,
example ; Solar System Batteries, Rechargeable Cars, UPS Batteries. etc.

Their key tech seems to be in ultra militarisation, something you don't really need for that big boy stuff.

There's plenty of money in defence contracts :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mushroom on June 05, 2015, 05:44:46 pm

I think that this product

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mushroom on June 05, 2015, 06:03:29 pm

I think that this product *COULD* be interesting in certain circumstances !

Some time ago, I had a look into the box where my wife and my daughter drop their used batteries. MOST OF THEM where 1.3 to 1.4 V !!! About 30 batteries in a box containing 40 to 50. I dont know all the gadgets they use batteries for, but the devices did'nt work anymore, and they said "bat lo"... This is measurements, not only readings.

But I have a mouse which claims very long battery life, and most likely includes a boost converter (dont remember exactly, but it is what I have been thinking of when I got it : a Microsoft touch mouse). The mouse works until the batteries reach 0.9 or 1.0 V (to be verified).

I run this mouse for months with used batteries only ! (less than 1.3 V)

This product could be interesting for old devices. I imagine that many low power more recent devices already include boost converters (?).

IMHO, product is not BS, but advertising is.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 05, 2015, 06:09:57 pm

Fail.

You're not supposed to put this on a new battery and use it all the time, you're supposed to put it on a 'dead' battery so you can keep on using it a bit longer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 05, 2015, 08:17:38 pm

An alkaline AA battery that measures 1.4V~1.3V open voltage, is usually unusable in a device that requires 1.1V or more to operate properly (~100mA).
A voltage booster will indeed prolong the life of the battery, by using energy available below its end voltage (0.8V). It is actually mentioned in a Duracell guidance document linked below.
The novelty lies in the reduced size of the converter circuit, which can fit on top of a standard battery.
The 800% increase in battery life seems far fetched though and would have to be confirmed independently.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=155311;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=155315;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=155317;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dentaku on June 05, 2015, 08:26:35 pm

So that's what Jon Philips is doing these days. He used to be at Maximum PC.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Unixon on June 05, 2015, 08:44:47 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 03:22:03 am

Sorry about the length  :( you know I planed 10 minutes  ;D

Good job, Dave. IMO, the longer the better. Especially when it is a teardown, a review or a tutorial. Hasty shallow videos are quite disappointing and no fun at all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 0b01010011 on June 05, 2015, 08:45:25 pm

more energy/voltage confusion, not to mention 'Wi-Fi will power the universe' bs from none other than the BBC

Power beamed to camera via wi-fi
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33020523 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33020523)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 05, 2015, 09:49:39 pm

Hello there,

The video was pretty nice, i watched the whole thing.

When i first heard about this product i looked at the data sheets and found that if the device cuts out at about 1.3v then the 'new' product could provide about 300 percent of the normal run time, which is 200 percent more.  But then after looking at other data such as internal resistance and most boost converters efficiency (it goes down for a lot of reasons) i had to bring that down to 200 percent total, which is only a 100 percent gain.  That's at least something, but again, we cant forget, that is if the device cuts out at 1.3v.  I dont think i have any devices that cut out that high, and if we allow that threshold to drop to 1.2v, then we dont get a real lot more out of it, if anything.

What i think they should do is buck up to the fact that they have a really dippy product, and instead of trying to pass it off as is, sell it as a battery booster that can boost an AA cell up to maybe 3 to 4 volts or maybe even 9v.  At least then it might be worth something.  But yes, then there is the all important question of just how much current can it really put out since it is so small.  We'd have to actually test one to be sure.  Small MOSFETs and small inductors can do a decent amount of current these days, but the package they are using is not just small, it's super small.

Another question i had was about the physical size.  Just how much longer does it make the AA cell.  If it's even a small amount longer it could actually ruin the original contacts of the device it is being used in, making it impossible to use with regular batteries after a time.  It could even crack the plastic housing of an AA or double AA housing if it is that cheap styrene type, or warp other types of plastics.

This reminds me of the old Rayovac rechargeable alkalines.  Anyone remember them?  They only took a charge like 15 times when the claim was much much higher.  But they did work in my TI programmable calculator because they had higher terminal voltage.  That was the only thing they were good for however.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mcinque on June 05, 2015, 10:29:11 pm

Dave, thank you for the video. I really enjoy when you debunk scams like that. The part where you describe the issue with the + of the battery and the metal chassis of the batterizer was a total ROTFL.  :-DD :-DD

Thanks again!  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: thewyliestcoyote on June 05, 2015, 11:05:21 pm

Dave Great Video,
Thanks,

I am working for a company that is working on very long lived low power devices. One of my junior engineers found this product and yesterday very loudly pushed it all the way up to the owner of the company (Not me and they are not a engineer). Needless to say this took a couple of hours to explain to them on why this is BULL SHIT and would not work and why this should not be designed into everything we are doing.

Dave you explanation was much better than mine,

Thanks

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LaurenceW on June 05, 2015, 11:50:56 pm

Battery life on just about all moderm electronics products is their achilles' heel. To gain commercial advantage, manufacturers will pull every trick in the book to make THEIR gizmo last longer than a competitor's, by better battery management and, where applicable, buck/boost converters in their power conditioning circuits.

So IF some external electronic snake-oil was going to have ANY effect on product longevity (on one set of batteries), don't you think that the manufacturers would have already built the same technology into their products, for the competitive edge it would give them? Only they don't do it, because it doesn't work (for 90% of all devices).

Isn't it mildly depressing how gullible so many people can be, about these sort of stories?  Then again, it also amazes me that 7% of Americans belive the moon landings were faked (Source:Space.com); so perhaps I should be depressed yes, but not surprised, about this fake. Pass me my homeopathic headache tablets!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kedwards22 on June 06, 2015, 12:03:32 am

Another thing to consider is conducted/radiated noise. To get the magnetics small the boost converter is probably running in the MHz range and there's no space for shielding or effective output filtering. There's also a good chance that the converter is not fixed frequency, maybe a simpler fixed on time control scheme. In that case the switching frequency and noise will be all over the spectrum. Good luck using it in a wireless device.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: DanielS on June 06, 2015, 12:52:08 am

I had a 1GB MPIO MP3 player that was nearly hopeless on AAA NiMH batteries so I ended up connecting it to an external AA battery to get a day out of the thing. I never measured what its cut-off voltage was but I would guess it was not very far down the NiMH discharge curve.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: NiHaoMike on June 06, 2015, 03:35:16 am

One case where a large percentage of the battery capacity is wasted is in high drain devices like digital cameras. But such a booster will not be useful for that and the only way to use the remaining capacity is in lower drain devices like clocks.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SaabFAN on June 06, 2015, 04:32:22 am

The 800% figure could hold up when taking a medium current device like a Xbox-Controller and one of these ultra-cheap Alkalines.
In my experience, the cheap ones can cause the controller to fail at 1,3V Open-Loop Cell-Voltage.
Good batteries and Ni-Mh Accumulators can power my controller down to 1,1V or even 0,9V (accumulator).

What is missing in the video: Discharging an Alkaline right down to the point where it is completely empty highly increases the chance that it starts leaking.
Try leaving a fresh battery inside a powered flashlight (the old ones without LEDs) for 3 or 4 days and they most likely start spilling their guts.

The only place where I can see a real use for these devices: LED Flashlights that use only a resistor with the LED in series, instead of a proper Driver-IC (Which I assume is true for about 90% of all available types of LED-Flashlights). With the Batteriser, there would be no fading of the light-intensity when the battery-voltage drops. Only problem there: Most of these LED-Lamps I know use one or several AAA-Batteries.

So in conclusion, it is, and probably will be for quite some time, cheaper, greener and generally better to just use Accumulators, like I'm doing for about 10 years now :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ebastler on June 06, 2015, 06:30:46 am

Maybe the Batteriser founder has simply misunderstood the expert he asked for a statement...

Dr. Kiumars Parvin of San Jose State University is quoted to have said: “We tested the Batteriser sleeve in our lab and we confirmed that the Batteriser taps into 80 percent of energy that is usually thrown away,”.  He did not say "... taps into the 80 percent of energy that is usually thrown away." He probably mant to say - or maybe even said, and is quoted incorrectly: "... taps into 80 percent of the energy that is usually thrown away." That would actually make sense, taking the converter losses and some remaining unusable capacity at <0.6V into account.

Just omitting a single word makes that quote so much more effective in advertising  ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 06, 2015, 06:45:26 am

Quote from: Fungus on June 05, 2015, 06:09:57 pm

Fail.
You're not supposed to put this on a new battery and use it all the time, you're supposed to put it on a 'dead' battery so you can keep on using it a bit longer.

Read their website, that is not what they imply. Use on new batteries seems the primary usage scenario.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bitwelder on June 06, 2015, 07:27:13 am

As 1.5V batteries as often used in series, is there any issue related to have a series of boost converters?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on June 06, 2015, 08:34:06 am

Just came across this website:

The Baloney Detection Kit: Carl Sagan’s Rules for Bullshit-Busting and Critical Thinking
http://www.brainpickings.org/2014/01/03/baloney-detection-kit-carl-sagan/ (http://www.brainpickings.org/2014/01/03/baloney-detection-kit-carl-sagan/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: G7PSK on June 06, 2015, 08:36:11 am

As the battery gets run down not only the voltage drops but so is it's ability to discharge at the same current. therefore even if you bring the voltage up again due to the current draw many devices still wont work. In fact you will need a greater current as you are converting current to voltage with the boost circuit. But of course on this forum we are all trying to teach granny to suck eggs to some extent, put the device on a supermarket shelf and it will fly off and do exactly what it is intended to do-Make money.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on June 06, 2015, 08:44:27 am

I have got to admit, the more I think of it, the more I think this man is a genius. If you can make a boost converter so small that it fit's on a battery, that's a top job, regardless the specs of this converter.

But than he hires a Uni-dr. to do some tests on his product, and then get's him to do a nice quote on camera. That quote was of course all he came to the uni for, Dr. Parvin probably didn't have a clue what was really going on. (Well that's what I can image has happened, I'm actually really interested in Dr. Parvin's side of the story here).

And than someone broke into his office, and turns this event into his favour by concluding they were after the IP. (sublimative message: It was the established industry).

But guys like this will always be there, heck they might even believe in their product.
And exaggerating the benefits of your own product isn't new either, just watch the commercials.

IMHO We should point a the media here who write about this without any reservation. How can you not be sceptical after reading 800% improvement? These journalist are just so horny for getting a scoop, that they just don't mind giving a podium to people that don't deserve it. And just read the reactions on those sites, and see how many people actually believe in this crap.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 06, 2015, 09:05:26 am

Quote from: PeterL on June 06, 2015, 08:44:27 am

But than he hires a Uni-dr. to do some tests on his product, and then get's him to do a nice quote on camera.

The thing I don't get is why he even had to do that?

Look at his LinkedIn profile:

Quote

Prior to Batteriser, Dr. Roohparvar served as CEO and President of Flexpower, a subsidiary of Flextronics. After being told it couldn't be done, Dr. Roohparvar and his team re-designed the original iPhone charger, reducing size by 40% and creating the smallest charger in the world. Prior to Flexpower, Dr. Roohparvar served as Vice President and General Manager at Broadcom, in charge of their Power Management Business Unit. In addition to launching Batteriser, Dr. Roohparvar is also a professor at California State University, East Bay, teaching computer science and computer engineering classes. Dr. Roohparvar received his Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering from Iowa State University.

A guy with that experience isn't capable of thoroughly testing it himself and presenting the results in a way that proves it works as claimed?  :-//
Products like this don't need BS marketing numbers, it will sell itself. The miniaturization tech which he seems to specialise in must be impressive to fit in the space. I can't wait to see it myself, I'll buy some when they go on pre-sale.
To ruin it with silly pie-in-the-sky marketing numbers is a real shame. At the price it would have still sold like hot cakes if they simply said 50% extra life or whatever on average.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on June 06, 2015, 09:42:53 am

Quote from: EEVblog on June 06, 2015, 09:05:26 am

The thing I don't get is why he even had to do that?

I would say only for marketing.

All that the crowd reads here is: "This device is confirmed by an independent authority".

Quote from: EEVblog on June 06, 2015, 09:05:26 am

...
Look at his LinkedIn profile:

Quote

..Dr. Roohparvar is also a professor at California State University, ...

Wow, I just wonder why they didn't put that in the PCWorld article.

I'm starting to get a bad vibe about universities in California now...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on June 06, 2015, 09:59:45 am

Quote from: EEVblog on June 06, 2015, 09:05:26 am

...At the price it would have still sold like hot cakes if they simply said 50% extra life or whatever on average.

Yes, and if that was how they had put it, I would probably actually be positive about myself..
(though cautious to recommend it to others, since you do need to understand when and how to use it).

About the price: What kind of production numbers do you think they're targeting at? It must be huge I would say, and they already mentioned the price, so they really need a big start on their IGG campaign don't they?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Grapsus on June 06, 2015, 10:01:11 am

Those kinds of marketing stunts really make me loose faith in humanity. The technical guy who designed the converter knows that their claims are bullshit, the marketing guys are even worse because they invented the bullshit. Then you have all those shitty tech magazines who probably have doubts but do nothing to verify what they publish, because if they did they would be unable to come with this giant headline and lose potential audience. I doubt releasing the product is in their interests, the real goal is to build a lot of hype around their startup so that a lot of venture capitalists fight in order to "fund" them. And their product is just perfect for duping any kind of investor: "look this battery is dead and when we plug our thingie on it, it comes alive again by tapping into all this wasted energy".

So what's the future for the Batteriser ? If they succeed in their little scam, they'll be able to get more than a million dollars. Then they'll rent offices in Sunnyvale, hire their friends. Maybe finally release something. And since real people won't use it, they'll be screwed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 10:19:40 am

Why do you think this is a scam? The voltage boost technology has been around for a while. The battery manufacturers are well aware of the wasted energy in their product and how to recover some of it.
The miniaturization of the circuit in this gizmo is the clincher.
The 800% battery life increase may even be true in some extreme case. We know marketing will naturally concentrate on those figures to grab the headlines. With most devices cutting out below 1V, the normal battery life extension is more likely to be around 20%, according to the Duracell constant power discharge curve.

This is an electronic blog. Someone here should have the equipment and the skills to disprove the claims with some hard testing of batteries, instead of everybody dismissing it all, out of hand.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on June 06, 2015, 10:35:14 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 10:19:40 am

The 800% battery life increase may even be true in some extreme case.

As mentioned before (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg687566/#msg687566), an increase by 800% would mean that only about 11% of the capacity would be used under normal conditions. Not taking into account efficiency etc. I guess it will be extremely difficult to find one case where this is the case.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr Simpleton on June 06, 2015, 10:41:23 am

Running a battery at 100 mA and 1.5 volt down to say 1V then put the gizmo on... means you will take 150 mA (in a perfect world) out of the poor battery, which is depleted already.

With increasing Ri this thing will go down hill real fast  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: k2teknik on June 06, 2015, 10:50:10 am

Quote from: PeterL on June 06, 2015, 08:44:27 am

I'm actually really interested in Dr. Parvin's side of the story here

Give him an email at kiumars.parvin@sjsu.edu
Hi looks to exist: http://www.sjsu.edu/people/kiumars.parvin/ (http://www.sjsu.edu/people/kiumars.parvin/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 10:51:59 am

Quote from: Mr Simpleton on June 06, 2015, 10:41:23 am

Running a battery at 100 mA and 1.5 volt down to say 1V then put the gizmo on... means you will take 150 mA (in a perfect world) out of the poor battery, which is depleted already.

With increasing Ri this thing will go down hill real fast  :-DD

Wrong. Look at the most efficient constant power curve of the Duracell AA battery. There is no significant time curve dip below 1V, down to 0.7V.
The internal battery resistance doesn't increase until below that voltage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Grapsus on June 06, 2015, 10:58:12 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 10:19:40 am

Why do you think this a scam? The voltage boost technology has been around for a while. The battery manufacturers are well aware of the wasted energy in their product and how to recover some of it.

We all agree that some additional energy can be squeezed out of batteries with a boost converter. Would such a converter achieve any significant gain for the user ? Simple technical considerations show that no, unless we talk about some very rare badly designed products. Therefore their claims are false and the end-users will never get what is advertised to them. This is the definition of a scam.

In the same way, the "white van" audio system does produce sound. Does it meet its high fidelity claims ? No. Same thing.

With Batteriser, the scam is even more elaborated because their real target are probably the silicon valley investors.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 11:15:08 am

I wouldn't call a probable 20% gain for most devices insignificant. Your technical considerations are based on flawed principles, like battery voltage that can't be used below 0.8V coupled with supposedly high battery internal resistance.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 11:41:08 am

Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on June 06, 2015, 10:35:14 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 10:19:40 am

The 800% battery life increase may even be true in some extreme case.

As mentioned before (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg687566/#msg687566), an increase by 800% would mean that only about 11% of the capacity would be used under normal conditions. Not taking into account efficiency etc. I guess it will be extremely difficult to find one case where this is the case.

They only need one instance to make the statement true. Totally misleading, but we wouldn't be talking about their gizmo if they had only claimed an average of 20% increase. So the advertising fib paid off.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on June 06, 2015, 11:42:41 am

Quote from: LaurenceW on June 05, 2015, 11:50:56 pm

Battery life on just about all moderm electronics products is their achilles' heel. To gain commercial advantage, manufacturers will pull every trick in the book to make THEIR gizmo last longer than a competitor's, by better battery management and, where applicable, buck/boost converters in their power conditioning circuits.

So IF some external electronic snake-oil was going to have ANY effect on product longevity (on one set of batteries), don't you think that the manufacturers would have already built the same technology into their products, for the competitive edge it would give them? Only they don't do it, because it doesn't work (for 90% of all devices).

This, exactly. What's stopping designers from putting boost converters in?

In fact, most devices with electronics either will cut out completely around 0.7-0.8V anyway, or already have boost converters to generate the right voltages. Adding another boost step just lowers the overall efficiency so that extra bit of energy at the end might not ever be used to do useful work.

The "80 percent of the energy that is usually thrown away" quote might even be referring to their ultraminiature boost converter having only 80% efficiency...  which is not that great.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: max_torque on June 06, 2015, 11:46:30 am

What do we know:

1) on "average" based on testing a (fairly common, and random) selection of battery powered devices, Dave showed that most run down to around 1v, before cutting out.

2) for an "average" battery, the 1V point is approximately 80% discharged typically, leaving another 20% of energy unusable.


3) A 100% efficient DC/DC convertor could leverage that extra 20% energy and make it available to the load.

4) No DC/DC convertor is 100% efficient, and their operating efficiency is HIGHLY dependent upon the load placed across them.

5) On average, typical existing DC/DC convertors would be expected to be between 90 & 95% efficient. meaning the extra energy available to an average load can be expected to be between 10 and 15%



Now, you'll note the use of "on average" as this is the important bit!  What matters is the average useage of this device not the extreme ends of the normal distribution curve!
It's like claiming your car does INFINITE miles per gallon because you have rolled down a hill with the engine off, and conveniently forgetting to mention how it got to the top of the hill, or that most people don't only drive downhill etc

So if we ignore all the marketing Bull, this product does potentially have some uses.  For example, you're giving a presentation and the battery in your wireless mouse goes "flat".  You whip out a Batteriser, and you're able to finish your presentation.  That's a genuinely usefull scenario.

 However, you could also finish that presentation by simply keeping a spare battery in your bag, which would fit any device, and provide 100% more run time, not 10%........


If this device is well designed, cheap, and they actually claim some realistic performance claims (which will be easily testable!) then it has a good future imo, but the blatant marketing spin and frankly, downright lies, published to date do nothing to help their case!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mzacharias on June 06, 2015, 11:50:32 am

The battery drop-out voltage on my Fluke 27II was 1.4 volts per cell. And when it drops out, it REALLY drops out. You have to remove the batteries and replace them before the meter will turn on again.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: max_torque on June 06, 2015, 11:54:37 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 11:41:08 am

They only need one instance to make the statement true.

Sorry, but no we don't.  They use words like "most" or "majority" or "typically"  to refer to the proportion of devices that only discharge their power source to 1.4V, any of which wording would not stand up in a court of law.   Technically speaking, to have a majority, you need over 50% of devices to cut out at 1.4V to support their claims.

If they had said "some" or "occasionally" then they would have a case.


For example, history shows it is possible to be shot in the head by a bullet and survive, for example:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2030646/Man-survives-bullet-brain-30-YEARS-wife-shot-gun-bought-gift.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2030646/Man-survives-bullet-brain-30-YEARS-wife-shot-gun-bought-gift.html)

And yet if you look at worldwide statistics you'll find that actually, only 5% of people survive being shot in the head.

If i said "most people survive being shot in the head" i'd be lying.
If i said "some people survive being shot in the head" i'd be telling the truth.

Those two sentences are very nearly identical, with just ONE letter different in fact, and yet they have a totally different meaning.  This is what "marketeers" rely on to dupe stupid people into believing what they say................

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 06, 2015, 11:58:24 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 10:19:40 am

Why do you think this a scam? The voltage boost technology has been around for a while. The battery manufacturers are well aware of the wasted energy in their product and how to recover some of it.
The miniaturization of the circuit in this gizmo is the clincher.
The 800% battery life increase may even be true in some extreme case. We know marketing will naturally concentrate on those figures to grab the headlines. With most devices cutting out below 1V, the normal battery life extension is more likely to be around 20%, according to the Duracell constant power discharge curve.

This is an electronic blog. Someone here should have the equipment and the skills to disprove the claims with some hard testing of batteries, instead of everybody dismissing it all, out of hand.

Well ... as Dave says, many devices will get *less* battery life. eg. The keyboard shown in their own marketing video. Those keyboards consume microamps when you're not pressing keys. This device will probably make average consumption much worse than that, shortening the battery life.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on June 06, 2015, 11:59:20 am

Another disbeliever (at least about the 800% claim):

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/batteriser-cool-tech-or-scam/ (http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/batteriser-cool-tech-or-scam/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 06, 2015, 12:18:22 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on June 06, 2015, 09:05:26 am

The miniaturization tech which he seems to specialise in must be impressive to fit in the space. I can't wait to see it myself, I'll buy some when they go on pre-sale.

It will be interesting to see what the standby/quiescent currents are.

Efficiency will also be interesting with such a tiny inductor. Maybe they could run it at ultra high frequencies or something.

Also: What will it output when a battery is fresh out of the pack and outputting 1.6V?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on June 06, 2015, 12:19:09 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 11:41:08 am

They only need one instance to make the statement true. Totally misleading, but we wouldn't be talking about their gizmo if they had only claimed an average of 20% increase. So the advertising fib paid off.

They state the "only 20% are used" and directly derive a "plus 800%" number from it. Indeed they call it "grossly simplified", but it's utter nonsense and nothing in their own claims justifies the 800% assumption. So before going into details why a dramatic increase of battery life is unrealistic, one should 1st mention that the 800% number is complete bs.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 06, 2015, 12:20:33 pm

One other thing nobody's mentioned (or at least, I haven't seen it) is Ohm's Law, which works against this device.

Batteries output around 1.2V-1.3V for most of their lifetime, right?

If you boost the battery voltage to 1.5V then most devices will simply follow Ohm's Law and consume 20% more current, therefore shortening the overall battery life.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 06, 2015, 12:25:52 pm

Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on June 06, 2015, 12:19:09 pm

They state the "only 20% are used" and directly derive a "plus 800%" number from it. Indeed they call it "grossly simplified"

Yep, the idea that we're only using 20% of our batteries is ludicrous. Laughable, even.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on June 06, 2015, 12:32:31 pm

Quote from: Fungus on June 06, 2015, 12:20:33 pm

One other thing nobody's mentioned (or at least, I haven't seen it) is Ohm's Law, which works against this device.
...
If you boost the battery voltage to 1.5V then most devices will simply follow Ohm's Law and consume 20% more current, therefore shortening the overall battery life.

This depends on the device. Indeed if it uses a boost converter to step up e.g. the ~1.5V from one cell to 3.3V, this converter might be a little more efficient when stepping up from 1.5V then when stepping up from 0.9V. Then again, the combined efficiency of batteriser and the device's boost converter will always be worse.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Grapsus on June 06, 2015, 12:32:54 pm

Wytnucls just says enough to get everyone going into explaining the thing again and again and then he replies totally ignoring everything that has been said to keep the controversy going. Totally classic troll, don't waste your time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: zapta on June 06, 2015, 12:44:06 pm

Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on June 06, 2015, 10:35:14 am

an increase by 800% would mean that only about 11% of the capacity would be used under normal conditions.

Not necessarily.

It's possible that in normal operation you consume more than 11? but waste a portion of it on heat because the battery starts with higher voltage then the minimum required by your device.  Theoretically, an ideal DC/DC can fix that as well.

It's not clear if the debunking here is about 'breaking the laws of physics' or is just about the limitations of our current DC/DC technology.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 12:50:05 pm

Quote from: Grapsus on June 06, 2015, 12:32:54 pm

Wytnucls just says enough to get everyone going into explaining the thing again and again and then he replies totally ignoring everything that has been said to keep the controversy going. Totally classic troll, don't waste your time.

Typical ad hominem statement. Come up with real physics instead. All my posts are backed up by Duracell graphs and application notes. You obviously didn't bother to read or grasp any of it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: RupertGo on June 06, 2015, 12:59:08 pm

I think they're sunk anyway. Once (if) the product gets into production, then no amount of marketing can compensate for reality and pissed-off users. It's easy enough to knock up a battery curve generator that automatically runs a variety of load scenarios - microcontroller, handful of relays - and then the truth will be out there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 06, 2015, 12:59:56 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 10:19:40 am

Why do you think this a scam? The voltage boost technology has been around for a while. The battery manufacturers are well aware of the wasted energy in their product and how to recover some of it.
The miniaturization of the circuit in this gizmo is the clincher.
The 800% battery life increase may even be true in some extreme case. We know marketing will naturally concentrate on those figures to grab the headlines. With most devices cutting out below 1V, the normal battery life extension is more likely to be around 20%, according to the Duracell constant power discharge curve.

This is an electronic blog. Someone here should have the equipment and the skills to disprove the claims with some hard testing of batteries, instead of everybody dismissing it all, out of hand.

Hi,

It's not a scam, it's all 100 percent perfectly true.  And also, i will have some of these devices modified to give you not only 800 percent battery life, but 8000 percent battery life, and i'll sell them to you for 5 bucks each, when they get through production.  If 8000 percent still isnt good enough, just let me know and i'll get you some that will give you 80000 percent over normal usage.  I'll have to charge more for those though, like 6 bucks each, simply because it takes more ink to print 80000 than it takes to print 8000, sorry.
Oh yeah before i forget, i wont tell you what voltage threshold these estimates are based on :-)

The above is all perfectly 100 percent accurate and true, but what you dont know is how the calculations are done because you dont know the target cut out voltage for a normal run of a single cell without the extra new device installed.  But if that's not to your liking, i can always lie and tell you it's 1.3 volts, if that makes you more happy.

<chuckle>

To be more serious, in my last post i did give some 'reasonable' estimates that we might see IF we had a device that cuts out at 1.3v, but as i also pointed out, i dont have any devices that cut out at 1.3v so the new Battery Thingizer WILL NOT HELP ANY of my applications at all, not one.

Now turn the voltage up to 3.5v or higher (from a single AA cell) and can i could probably use them for other things.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on June 06, 2015, 01:05:16 pm

Quote from: zapta on June 06, 2015, 12:44:06 pm

Not necessarily.

Well, actually yes. You might construct cases where the consumption is higher/smaller for a certain voltage level. But increasing the voltage level certainly won't help there.

Quote from: zapta on June 06, 2015, 12:44:06 pm

It's possible that in normal operation you consume more than 11? but waste a portion of it on heat because the battery starts with higher voltage then the minimum required by your device.  Theoretically, an ideal DC/DC can fix that as well.
It's not clear if the debunking here is about 'breaking the laws of physics' or is just about the limitations of our current DC/DC technology.

This is a pretty bad example. Even counterproductive. You argue that the higher voltage at the begin of a battery's lifetime could be wasted due to higher currents. Well, this might be true in selected cases.
Then again the nominal voltage of a fresh alkaline cell is 1.5 V and this is exactly the voltage that this batteriser is said to deliver over the whole lifetime.
So in  cases where the higher voltage means higher losses, this device extends the issue over the whole lifetime.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 01:05:54 pm

Quote from: RupertGo on June 06, 2015, 12:59:08 pm

I think they're sunk anyway. Once (if) the product gets into production, then no amount of marketing can compensate for reality and pissed-off users. It's easy enough to knock up a battery curve generator that automatically runs a variety of load scenarios - microcontroller, handful of relays - and then the truth will be out there.

Absolutely; if the average battery life extension turns out to be only 10-20%, depending on DC to DC efficiency, like I suspect, it may only be useful for niche applications and the general public will lose interest.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 06, 2015, 01:52:47 pm

Quote from: PeterL on June 06, 2015, 09:59:45 am

About the price: What kind of production numbers do you think they're targeting at? It must be huge I would say, and they already mentioned the price, so they really need a big start on their IGG campaign don't they?

No idea about numbers, but a stamped metal sheet, a thin board, and the circuit, not much in the way of huge capital required, unless they spun an ASIC or something. There might be some novel mounting tech though.
Like many Kickstarter and Indiegogo campaigns, it's not uncommon to not make a profit on the first units, the idea is to build the business up.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 06, 2015, 01:56:24 pm

Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on June 06, 2015, 10:35:14 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 10:19:40 am

The 800% battery life increase may even be true in some extreme case.

As mentioned before (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg687566/#msg687566), an increase by 800% would mean that only about 11% of the capacity would be used under normal conditions. Not taking into account efficiency etc. I guess it will be extremely difficult to find one case where this is the case.

And that's the kicker. No matter what battery you are talking about, or what product you are talking about, it all comes down to simple energy used vs energy stored in the battery.
That 800% must also include the efficiency of the converter!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 06, 2015, 02:01:46 pm

Quote from: Grapsus on June 06, 2015, 10:58:12 am

We all agree that some additional energy can be squeezed out of batteries with a boost converter. Would such a converter achieve any significant gain for the user ? Simple technical considerations show that no, unless we talk about some very rare badly designed products. Therefore their claims are false and the end-users will never get what is advertised to them. This is the definition of a scam.

It is not a scam. It just the usual BS marketing numbers making the headlines, seen it countless times before in every industry, nothing new here.
Companies are free to use words like "up to" etc, and have no real requirement to tell you what average figures you might expect in practice. Welcome to the free market. Of course, if they can't show at least one case of x8 improvement, then they might have some explaining to do.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Grapsus on June 06, 2015, 04:13:01 pm

Ok, let's call it BS marketing. But who are they trying to fool here ? The first disappointed customers will tell it everywhere and nobody will buy the thing ever again. Since their strategy cannot lead to a happy growing customer base, I wonder if the real goal is not about impressing investors in order to get a big founding round...

Quote from: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 12:50:05 pm

Quote from: Grapsus on June 06, 2015, 12:32:54 pm

Wytnucls just says enough to get everyone going into explaining the thing again and again and then he replies totally ignoring everything that has been said to keep the controversy going. Totally classic troll, don't waste your time.

Typical ad hominem statement. Come up with real physics instead. All my posts are backed up by Duracell graphs and application notes. You obviously didn't bother to read or grasp any of it.

Ok, sorry, I might have  been carried away.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on June 06, 2015, 04:20:12 pm

Quote from: Grapsus on June 06, 2015, 04:13:01 pm

Ok, let's call it BS marketing. But who are they trying to fool here ? The first disappointed customers will tell it everywhere and nobody will buy the thing ever again. Since their strategy cannot lead to a happy growing customer base, I wonder if the real goal is not about impressing investors in order to get a big founding round...

If that would be true, then there would not be any "snake oil" around.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ian.M on June 06, 2015, 04:23:37 pm

How to profit from a silicon snake-oil gadget:

* Get it prominent in the media.
* Get it on the market in November.
* Get it in all the pre-Christmas gadget magazines and catalogs.
* Sell hundreds of thousands of units to non-techies looking for Christmas presents.
* Discount it heavily in the January sales to clear remaining stock.
* Fold the company 1st February before most dissatisfied customers have got round to returning it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 06, 2015, 04:31:58 pm

Quote from: Grapsus on June 06, 2015, 04:13:01 pm

Ok, let's call it BS marketing. But who are they trying to fool here ? The first disappointed customers will tell it everywhere and nobody will buy the thing ever again. Since their strategy cannot lead to a happy growing customer base, I wonder if the real goal is not about impressing investors in order to get a big founding round...

I get the feeling it's the electronics equivalent of ab-ductors, magnetic bracelets, cervical pillows, etc.

Get in there, sell the first few million as fast as possible, pocket the profit, close the company, start a new one with a different name...lather, rinse, repeat. Whoever does it first/most often gets the most money.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 06, 2015, 05:49:28 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on June 06, 2015, 02:01:46 pm

Quote from: Grapsus on June 06, 2015, 10:58:12 am

We all agree that some additional energy can be squeezed out of batteries with a boost converter. Would such a converter achieve any significant gain for the user ? Simple technical considerations show that no, unless we talk about some very rare badly designed products. Therefore their claims are false and the end-users will never get what is advertised to them. This is the definition of a scam.

It is not a scam. It just the usual BS marketing numbers making the headlines, seen it countless times before in every industry, nothing new here.
Companies are free to use words like "up to" etc, and have no real requirement to tell you what average figures you might expect in practice. Welcome to the free market. Of course, if they can't show at least one case of x8 improvement, then they might have some explaining to do.

Hello there,

That's the thing that bothers me the most.  Since the percentage is just the total energy divided by the used energy, all we have to do is choose the voltage cutout threshold we want and we can claim 800 percent, 8000 percent, you name it :-)

To the other poster:
I think that negative publicity only works for actors, not for electronic products.
Everything in this thread is well deserved negative publicity.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Poe on June 06, 2015, 06:29:35 pm

So my camera eats a new battery every eight minutes.

I put this on a dead battery get an hour of run time?

That's what they're saying right?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: zapta on June 06, 2015, 06:45:35 pm

Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on June 06, 2015, 01:05:16 pm

You argue that the higher voltage at the begin of a battery's lifetime could be wasted due to higher currents. Well, this might be true in selected cases.

'selected' is a loaded word. I would say in 'some' cases.

Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on June 06, 2015, 01:05:16 pm

Then again the nominal voltage of a fresh alkaline cell is 1.5 V and this is exactly the voltage that this batteriser is said to deliver over the whole lifetime.
So in  cases where the higher voltage means higher losses, this device extends the issue over the whole lifetime.

I don't know what exactly this product does but maintaining a let's say 1.2V level throughout the life of the battery may save energy also during the high voltage period.

'Consumed' is different that 'needed'. Ideally the device should spread the charge to provide the 'needed' power for as long as possible.  I don't think the video touched on that aspect.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on June 06, 2015, 07:18:55 pm

Quote from: zapta on June 06, 2015, 06:45:35 pm

I don't know what exactly this product does...

Which would however help to participate in a discussion about this very product.

Quote from: zapta on June 06, 2015, 06:45:35 pm

... but maintaining a let's say 1.2V level throughout the life of the battery may save energy also during the high voltage period.

But this is quite the opposite of what it does. If you would have taken the time to either watch Dave's rant or visit their webpage, you would have found out that they argue that "most/all" devices don't work after a level of 1.3V. Therefore this things boosts up the voltage to 1.5V.

Quote from: zapta on June 06, 2015, 06:45:35 pm

'Consumed' is different that 'needed'. Ideally the device should spread the charge to provide the 'needed' power for as long as possible.  I don't think the video touched on that aspect.

Why would it? It's a simple boost converter with a fixed 1.5V output. What you imply is that the thing magically knows what would be the best voltage level for the device you put it in. Even if this would be possible in theory, it's definitely nothing to expect from a $2.50 device that fits on top of an AA battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on June 06, 2015, 07:24:39 pm

1. What's the going rate for a professor?  In the 70s one asked me for $2000 (under the table) in order for me to sell my product at his school and I did not want to pay it, so I lost my business.  And to be honest to this day, I wonder where I would be if I had paid him the money.  Professors are people and like people, some can be bought.

2.  The last video shows them telling people it is to be placed on a dead battery, so depending on the cost, I assume most will be happy to just get a few more minutes of use out of a battery (especially if they do not have a spare).

My guess is they will drop the 800% crap.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lewis on June 06, 2015, 07:36:27 pm

If I was designing this thing I would only have the boost converter operating when the battery voltage dropped to, say, 1.1-1.2V. That would drastically improve system efficiency by negating almost all the quiescent current when the battery is fully charged. It's not difficult to do, turn the lower MOSFET off, and keep the synchronous MOSFET on (it would need one hell of a low Vgs).

I can see this improving battery life to some extent, maybe not quite the 800% claimed, but probably enough to pay for itself a few times over during its lifetime given its low cost. Which in my book makes it a fairly decent product, worth a punt.

Point taken about battery life being a valuable marketing feature so manufacturers would include a boost converter in their products anyway. But manufacturers can 'exaggerate' battery life claims for free, it costs money to put boost converters in products.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ivan747 on June 06, 2015, 07:37:58 pm

I have a better idea, an actual improvement on this product. Instead of having it supply 1.5V 100% of the time, just let the DC-DC converter bypassed until the battery drops below, say 1.1V, then start the boost and keep the voltage on 1.1V until it drops dead. It's basically artificially modifying the discharge curve of the battery to take advantage of the energy at low voltages.

I, Ivan Veloz hereby claim my invention to be mine.  ;D Oh snap!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lewis on June 06, 2015, 07:40:53 pm

Quote from: ivan747 on June 06, 2015, 07:37:58 pm

I have a better idea

Beat you to it

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ivan747 on June 06, 2015, 07:41:30 pm

Quote from: lewis on June 06, 2015, 07:40:53 pm

Quote from: ivan747 on June 06, 2015, 07:37:58 pm

I have a better idea

Beat you to it

Oh snap! Ready for some collaboration?  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lewis on June 06, 2015, 07:44:09 pm

Patent it quick!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: hikariuk on June 06, 2015, 09:09:04 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 07:13:07 am

Quote from: SL4P on June 05, 2015, 07:08:33 am

I dunno, I think they'll try to productise it through crowd-funding

Yes, the article says they will be putting it on Indiegogo.
Not sure why they don't use Kickstarter? they obviously have a real prototype, so satisfies the requirement.

Only reason I can think of is that Indiegogo, iirc, lets you receive funds even if your goal isn't reached.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on June 06, 2015, 09:15:42 pm

As Dave already mentioned, they won't have any problems reaching whatever goal they establish, so I don't think they'll need IGG flexible funding.

Maybe IGG takes a lower cut?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: zapta on June 06, 2015, 09:26:49 pm

Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on June 06, 2015, 07:18:55 pm

Why would it? It's a simple boost converter with a fixed 1.5V output.

That's a guess based on sketchy marketing material.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on June 06, 2015, 10:51:13 pm

Quote from: zapta on June 06, 2015, 09:26:49 pm

That's a guess based on sketchy marketing material.

Well, it's a pretty good guess though. They claim that most device will not work if the battery voltage drops below 1.4 or 1.3V.
Then they show you how with their batteriser, all devices display full battery again. Which is 1.5V for alkalines.
We don't want to nitpick here if they use 1.45V or 1.55V, but it will be something around 1.5V.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on June 06, 2015, 11:08:10 pm

I posted the last two patents on another thread regarding this:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20150056476.pdf (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20150056476.pdf)

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20150048785.pdf (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20150048785.pdf)

But I didn't read them in detail but the voltages setting is not set on the patent, I think they refer to it as a target voltage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: zapta on June 07, 2015, 12:12:07 am

Quote from: miguelvp on June 06, 2015, 11:08:10 pm

But I didn't read them in detail but the voltages setting is not set on the patent, I think they refer to it as a target voltage.

Another patent that comes to mind is having some smart, history and heuristics that determine the target voltage dynamically.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: DanielS on June 07, 2015, 03:03:39 am

Quote from: ivan747 on June 06, 2015, 07:37:58 pm

I have a better idea, an actual improvement on this product. Instead of having it supply 1.5V 100% of the time, just let the DC-DC converter bypassed until the battery drops below, say 1.1V, then start the boost and keep the voltage on 1.1V until it drops dead.

If your device has a cut-off voltage of 1.3V and you wait for 1.1V to start boosting, then you wasted your time and money since booster will never engage.

Where this thing would be most useful is to make devices with high cut-off work with single-cell NiMH when they normally wouldn't, or at least not for long, because their cut-off voltage is close to full-charge voltage on NiMH, particularly older gadgets which may have been designed to operate off direct battery voltage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: westfw on June 07, 2015, 06:32:16 am

Quote

It is not a scam. It just the usual BS marketing numbers

I think it's sad that we make excuses like that.  "usual BS marketing marketing" ARE "scams."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on June 07, 2015, 06:51:58 am

Do we have any idea what the quiescent power consumption of this dc-dc converter is meant to be?

It needs to maintain 1.5V not just into a heavy load, but also a very light one. Most battery powered devices spend most of their time switched off, or at least, in a standby mode where their consumption is microamps. Draw more than a few uA when the device is off, and you're doing more harm than good.

The marketing, and perhaps the application itself, isn't doing justice to what could be some genuinely worthwhile technology. Perhaps they do indeed have a notably efficient, small dc-dc converter, which is cheap, robust, and has extremely low standby power use? That in itself is a really useful piece of technology, just not for use in this particular product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on June 07, 2015, 07:17:05 am

Quote from: AndyC_772 on June 07, 2015, 06:51:58 am

Do we have any idea what the quiescent power consumption of this dc-dc converter is meant to be?

It needs to maintain 1.5V not just into a heavy load, but also a very light one. Most battery powered devices spend most of their time switched off, or at least, in a standby mode where their consumption is microamps. Draw more than a few uA when the device is off, and you're doing more harm than good.

The marketing, and perhaps the application itself, isn't doing justice to what could be some genuinely worthwhile technology. Perhaps they do indeed have a notably efficient, small dc-dc converter, which is cheap, robust, and has extremely low standby power use? That in itself is a really useful piece of technology, just not for use in this particular product.

Based on common devices, likely to be somewhere between 5-20uA, but this will be drawn at the output voltage, so scale this by the step-up ratio & efficiency
If we say 30uA, this represents roughly 80Khrs, about 10 years.
Of course some devices will draw some current in "off" mode for various reasons, so "shelf" life would be reduces, but for AAs upwards, probably not enough to be a major issue. 

 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mcinque on June 07, 2015, 08:34:58 am

Quote from: EEVblog on June 06, 2015, 02:01:46 pm

It is not a scam.

Legally here the word "scam" is used to describe something that makes you obtain an advantage by using artifice and deception.

Telling that a product does something huge (while it does not) only to obtain an advantage (to have your crowdsourcing campaign funded, for example), technically and legally, here it's considered a scam.

Of course you're right: there's nothing new in this kind of marketing, we can see this "technique" used in every single country of the planet, but this 800% improvement is a little bit cheeky, don't you? :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on June 07, 2015, 10:06:55 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on June 06, 2015, 10:51:59 am

Quote from: Mr Simpleton on June 06, 2015, 10:41:23 am

Running a battery at 100 mA and 1.5 volt down to say 1V then put the gizmo on... means you will take 150 mA (in a perfect world) out of the poor battery, which is depleted already.

With increasing Ri this thing will go down hill real fast  :-DD

Wrong. Look at the most efficient constant power curve of the Duracell AA battery. There is no significant time curve dip below 1V, down to 0.7V.
The internal battery resistance doesn't increase until below that voltage.

At constant power the voltage is pretty much in free-fall by the time it's hit 1v, even for fairly small loads.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 07, 2015, 10:49:30 am

The curve published by Duracell for 100mW is much flatter and goes below 0.8V.
At 1V, the load will draw 100mA and 170mA at the claimed 0.6V threshold, to maintain that power.
10 to 20% battery life extension seems plausible at that power level.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=155315;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 07, 2015, 10:51:01 am

Quote from: Poe on June 06, 2015, 06:29:35 pm

So my camera eats a new battery every eight minutes.

I put this on a dead battery get an hour of run time?

That's what they're saying right?

Hi,

That is what it is SUPPOSED to do, but there are too many unanswered specifications we still dont know yet, like the max current output for the Battery Thingizer.
Cameras need a decent amount of current, and it is not known yet if the new device can put out the required current that the camera would need.  Typically i think some cameras could benefit from a product like this, but only if it is able to put out enought current to satisfy the needs of the camera.  Right now because of the required size of the new device (that must fit over an AA cell and be able to still fit inside the battery compartment) it is very doubtful that it can work with high current devices, even when that current is just a pulse.  So it may only work with low current devices like remote controls, which may not really need the device anyway.

We have to wait and see what happens when someone gets one of these and tests it since the company that makes them only publishes specs they want you to know, and dont publish any specs they dont want you to know.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 07, 2015, 10:55:12 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on June 07, 2015, 10:49:30 am

The curve published by Duracell for 100mW is much flatter and goes below 0.8V.
At 1V, the load will draw 100mA and 170mA at the claimed 0.6V threshold, to maintain that power.
10 to 20% battery life extension seems plausible at that power level.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=155315;image)

Hello,

I used a similar curve to calculate an approximate 100 percent gain at a cutoff of 1.3 volts.  We KNOW that a boost circuit can do this, but the real problem is we dont know ALL the specs of this thing yet, like can it do a 1 amp load for example?
For most real life applications a boost circuit is designed AROUND a given application.  It's not designed for just ANY ol' application because it has to be optimized for that application, and that means the choice of parts like MOSFET, inductor, etc.  There's no choice allowed here as the circuit you buy would be the same one i buy, and we might have entirely different products to use it in which draw significantly different currents.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on June 07, 2015, 12:11:16 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on June 07, 2015, 10:49:30 am

The curve published by Duracell

The chart I posted was straight out of the standard Duracell MN1500 datasheet. (http://ww2.duracell.com/media/en-US/pdf/gtcl/Product_Data_Sheet/NA_DATASHEETS/MN1500_US_CT.pdf).  The "Plus Power" (http://professional.duracell.com/downloads/datasheets/product/Plus%20Power/Plus_AA_MN1500.pdf) and "Ultra power" (http://professional.duracell.com/downloads/datasheets/product/Ultra%20Power/Ultra-Power_AA_MX1500.pdf) variants all look very similar, though Duracell have cunningly changed the power values so they can't be directly compared.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on June 07, 2015, 12:14:58 pm

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 07, 2015, 07:17:05 am

Based on common devices, likely to be somewhere between 5-20uA, but this will be drawn at the output voltage, so scale this by the step-up ratio & efficiency

That's better than I expected. Some combination of pulse skipping and a decent sized output cap to reduce the ripple voltage, presumably...?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on June 07, 2015, 12:34:40 pm

Quote from: AndyC_772 on June 07, 2015, 12:14:58 pm

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 07, 2015, 07:17:05 am

Based on common devices, likely to be somewhere between 5-20uA, but this will be drawn at the output voltage, so scale this by the step-up ratio & efficiency

That's better than I expected. Some combination of pulse skipping and a decent sized output cap to reduce the ripple voltage, presumably...?

Yes - they generally have a pulse-skip mode. The big catch is that the front-page quiescent current spec is from the output, which can be a significant issue if boosting to a significantly higher voltage like 5V

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mrkev on June 07, 2015, 03:53:36 pm

As someone who worked in shop with electronics, I came across only few products that couldn't be powered from rechargeable batteries.
I would say that it was probably more common few years back, when they didn't have devices that could run on that low voltage (like OA in some walk-men type device) but it's pretty much only case of cheap electronics now...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Poe on June 07, 2015, 04:32:02 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on June 07, 2015, 10:49:30 am

The curve published by Duracell for 100mW is much flatter and goes below 0.8V.
At 1V, the load will draw 100mA and 170mA at the claimed 0.6V threshold, to maintain that power.
10 to 20% battery life extension seems plausible at that power level.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=155315;image)

It's a shorter graph, but I'm not so certain those lines are flatter.  Since the internal resistance increases as the battery is discharged, the cutoff voltage is a function of how much current you're pulling.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: calzap on June 07, 2015, 05:08:14 pm

Quote from: ez24 on June 06, 2015, 07:24:39 pm

1. What's the going rate for a professor?  In the 70s one asked me for $2000 (under the table) in order for me to sell my product at his school and I did not want to pay it, so I lost my business.  And to be honest to this day, I wonder where I would be if I had paid him the money.  Professors are people and like people, some can be bought.

As a retired professor, I can attest that with regard to ethics, there is a broad spectrum in the academic ranks.  Actually, the majority are quite ethical.   Most common conflict is requiring their students to buy a textbook that they wrote.  At the least, they should refund the royalty per textbook to each of their students who buy it.  Some are for sale to do endorsements.  Usually these are more senior profs who have a reputation in their field, so are attractive endorsers for companies.  And being tenured, they don't have to be too concerned about the opinion of their colleagues and department head.

Some naive young (and not so young) profs get suckered into doing endorsements without realizing how it will be used for marketing.  Happened to me as an assistant prof.  There was a commercial analytic lab that contacted me suggesting that my lab and theirs compare results on some samples.  I agreed.  The results were very close, and I sent them a letter stating that was the case.  A few weeks later, quotes from my letter appeared in their ads.  Learned to be careful after that.

Mike in California

 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 07, 2015, 07:26:02 pm

I just finished running a discharge test of a single Duracell AA battery, between 0.7V and 0.6V, with a constant resistive load (5.6 Ohms + test leads).
Initial discharge current was 100mA and at the end, 90mA. It took 1 hour and 5 minutes for the 0.1V discharge.
Assuming the discharge slope is constant between 1V and 0.6V, that would be 4 hours of extra battery time. Depending on the converter efficiency at 100mA, that time could be reduced significantly.
Those figures seem to tie up with the Duracell graph.
There doesn't seem to be any significant rise in internal battery resistance above 0.6V.

Test jig: Keithley 2000 measuring voltage, Rigol DM3058E measuring current on 2A range and 10W 5.6 Ohm resistor.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mybetoostnedforths on June 07, 2015, 09:25:30 pm

Hi from Sweden!
I just thought of something crazy aight.
Consider this
If applying the gizmo to your battery provides constant voltage at 1.5, by converting the stuff.
And if as Dave says, screws up battery-indicators,
wouldn't that mean that the indicator would just go to 100% (as in 1.5 volt), making it seem like it's full? As seen in their marketing video at 26 seconds.
That'd fool consumers into thinking it actually works, since it's full. Atleast for a while.

But hell, I'm just a very-low-time electronics hobbyist, and I sure as hell could just be wrong.
Regards
Mybetoostnedforths

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on June 07, 2015, 11:34:47 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on June 07, 2015, 07:26:02 pm

I just finished running a discharge test of a single Duracell AA battery, between 0.7V and 0.6V, with a constant resistive load (5.6 Ohms + test leads).
Initial discharge current was 100mA and at the end, 90mA. It took 1 hour and 5 minutes for the 0.1V discharge.
Assuming the discharge slope is constant between 1V and 0.6V, that would be 4 hours of extra battery time. Depending on the converter efficiency at 100mA, that time could be reduced significantly.

Well, 1st of all 400mAH is 20% of a 2000mAH cell. Not quite 800%.
Also keep in mind that even at ideal efficiency, the boost up of the voltage to 1.5V means that 100mA drawn from the boost up converter doesn't mean 100mA are drawn from the battery. Actually, at 0.7V more than 200mA are drawn which raises to 250mA at 0.6V. Obviously, considering a realistic efficiency, the current would be even higher. And higher currents means negative impact on battery life.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on June 08, 2015, 12:07:58 am

Either technically or morally the device appears to fall into a peculiar category.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitism)

Muttley

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 08, 2015, 01:00:17 am

Due to popular request I have a shorter and perhaps more digestible text based article here:
http://www.eevblog.com/2015/06/07/the-batteriser-explained/ (http://www.eevblog.com/2015/06/07/the-batteriser-explained/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on June 08, 2015, 05:17:18 am

Nice text article.  I'm interested to see if you get more exposure from that than the video.  I would think it would be way easier for a news site to use the text article as a source than pointing people to watch a video.  The text is more quotable and makes a better static reference.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BradC on June 08, 2015, 05:52:53 am

The section on rechargeables has me wondering. The theory on discharge down to 1V is to make sure the battery is not discharged to the point where individual weak cells can be reverse-charged. I've never heard any evidence to state that discharging a single cell to 0V will damage it, and in fact it is sometimes recommended to store NiCd & NiMh cells that have been properly discharged with shorting bars attached. I've certainly never damaged a cell by flattening it completely in isolation.

Discounting all the other failings of the product, if it can stop a rechargeable cell being reverse charged it's a bonus.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 08, 2015, 06:55:54 am

Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on June 07, 2015, 11:34:47 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on June 07, 2015, 07:26:02 pm

I just finished running a discharge test of a single Duracell AA battery, between 0.7V and 0.6V, with a constant resistive load (5.6 Ohms + test leads).
Initial discharge current was 100mA and at the end, 90mA. It took 1 hour and 5 minutes for the 0.1V discharge.
Assuming the discharge slope is constant between 1V and 0.6V, that would be 4 hours of extra battery time. Depending on the converter efficiency at 100mA, that time could be reduced significantly.

Well, 1st of all 400mAH is 20% of a 2000mAH cell. Not quite 800%.
Also keep in mind that even at ideal efficiency, the boost up of the voltage to 1.5V means that 100mA drawn from the boost up converter doesn't mean 100mA are drawn from the battery. Actually, at 0.7V more than 200mA are drawn which raises to 250mA at 0.6V. Obviously, considering a realistic efficiency, the current would be even higher. And higher currents means negative impact on battery life.

Well, first of all, I never said that 800% is a realistic figure.
I think 10 to 20% is plausible, depending on final efficiency. Assuming an efficiency of 80~90%, with a current draw of 100mA, 2~3 hours at 40-50mA is still useful for some devices. A multimeter, for instance, only uses 10mA of current on average. A couple of sleeves would be easier to carry around, than extra batteries. Definitely not a huge market, but a market nevertheless.
I don't know how the device works, but the IC could reduce final voltage to 1.2~1.3V at the low end and still have most devices working at that voltage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on June 08, 2015, 07:09:10 am

Quote from: Fungus on June 05, 2015, 06:09:57 pm

You're not supposed to put this on a new battery and use it all the time, you're supposed to put it on a 'dead' battery so you can keep on using it a bit longer.

Quote from: Wytnucls on June 05, 2015, 08:17:38 pm

The 800% increase in battery life seems far fetched though and would have to be confirmed independently.

They state otherwise, but if you put it on when it's nearly dead, you can also start counting battery life from that moment.
In that case, their 800% increase can be true, 90 seconds instead of 10 seconds use.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 08, 2015, 07:16:34 am

The 800% extension is possible for a hypothetical device which cuts out near the 1.5V battery voltage.
I don't have such a device, but maybe there exists one in a dark corner of the world.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on June 08, 2015, 07:35:42 am

Quote from: Ian.M on June 06, 2015, 04:23:37 pm

* Sell hundreds of thousands of units to non-techies looking for Christmas presents.

thanks for predicting this, it leaves me some time for thinking about:

-How to behave if I get this as a present from an illiterate.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on June 08, 2015, 07:51:55 am

As many devices already have a boost converter inside, how do multiple stages of boost converters behave combined?

I have very bad expieriences with that (another tech field), especially when at least one isn't designed for it, and the load goes up and down.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ian.M on June 08, 2015, 08:37:03 am

Quote from: Galenbo on June 08, 2015, 07:35:42 am

Quote from: Ian.M on June 06, 2015, 04:23:37 pm

* Sell hundreds of thousands of units to non-techies looking for Christmas presents.

thanks for predicting this, it leaves me some time for thinking about:

-How to behave if I get this as a present from an illiterate.

Its still better than novelty socks - at least you can send it to Dave for a teardown.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 08, 2015, 09:21:36 am

Quote from: Galenbo on June 08, 2015, 07:51:55 am

As many devices already have a boost converter inside, how do multiple stages of boost converters behave combined?

You get twice the efficiency losses. And the DC-DC in the products usually present a constant power load, which the preceeding DC-DC (Batteriser) might not be as efficient at.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 08, 2015, 12:12:28 pm

Quote from: Mybetoostnedforths on June 07, 2015, 09:25:30 pm

Hi from Sweden!
I just thought of something crazy aight.
Consider this
If applying the gizmo to your battery provides constant voltage at 1.5, by converting the stuff.
And if as Dave says, screws up battery-indicators,
wouldn't that mean that the indicator would just go to 100% (as in 1.5 volt), making it seem like it's full? As seen in their marketing video at 26 seconds.
That'd fool consumers into thinking it actually works, since it's full. Atleast for a while.

But hell, I'm just a very-low-time electronics hobbyist, and I sure as hell could just be wrong.
Regards
Mybetoostnedforths

Hi,

Yes, but to be fair, if you got 800 percent run time out of a battery you normally get only 100 percent run time (say 8 hours as compared to 1 hour) you would not care if the battery gauge was not correct anymore.

But to be more reasonable, it could be only 200 percent run time (2 hours instead of 1 hour for example) and that is if your home product cuts out normally at 1.3v, which is not typical at all.  So in some strange device it might actually give you 2 hours run time instead of 1, and then you would not care as much about the battery gauge, even though you might miss it.  That's if the battery gauge works right in the first place which some dont anyway.

So i think the battery gauge issue is just a small side issue, which would not matter if the device worked as advertised or even just 100 percent better than without it.  But there dont seem to be many products that we will see a benefit for, unfortunately.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 08, 2015, 12:23:04 pm

Quote from: MrAl on June 08, 2015, 12:12:28 pm

Yes, but to be fair, if you got 800 percent run time out of a battery you normally get only 100 percent run time (say 8 hours as compared to 1 hour) you would not care if the battery gauge was not correct anymore.

Until it totally pisses you off when it dies on you unexpectedly. Personally I'd rather know were I stand with the battery level rather than have to guess/remember when I put the battery in last and how many hours it's been running for.
Murphy will ensure it dies at the most inconvenient time.

Quote

So i think the battery gauge issue is just a small side issue

I think it's a complete show-stopper for many people. Perhaps not if you only used it to get a bit more juice on an otherwise flat battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: RupertGo on June 08, 2015, 02:42:32 pm

Battery gauges on many devices aren't that accurate anyway, and perhaps you could design the device to roll off its output with a bit of time to spare to give the user some warning, but I'm not sure if that's practicably possible given off-the-shelf converter chips and the limitations of the form factor. Especially given a dynamic load.

Something else that could be worrying: if you're using this thing on an NiMH cell and you put it and the cell into a charger, what happens? Do these circuits have protection against seeing a voltage like that on their output? How would the charger react? You probably don't want the sort of product liability issues that can come from mucking about with stuff like that unless you've designed for those cases.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AG6QR on June 08, 2015, 04:06:52 pm

If you really want to see some crazy claims, look at the founder's interview on CNN Money

http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/02/technology/make-battery-last-longer-batteriser/?sr=cnnmoneybin060615battery0900story (http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/02/technology/make-battery-last-longer-batteriser/?sr=cnnmoneybin060615battery0900story)

For example, a typical AA battery will stop working after 240 minutes of use powering a remote control, 95 minutes powering portable speakers, or just 38 minutes powering an RC toy. Roohparvar claims that the Batteriser can get 1,185 minutes out of a remote (5 times more energy), 570 minutes out of portable speakers (6x) or 355 minutes out of an RC toy (9x).

If you read the comments on that CNN Money story, you'll notice that the readers of CNN Money, on average, aren't as technically astute as those of EEVblog, but we knew that.

He doesn't have a product.  He has an idea that he's pitching for crowdfunding investors.  That's why he's promoting the story in CNN Money.  On his website, he says his product will reduce the amount of battery waste going into landfills by a factor of eight.  That's a very bold claim, and in order to meet it, his device would have to produce that claimed 8x improvement when averaged out over all devices that use alkaline batteries -- not just once in a while on the most special cases.

Not a chance.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rr100 on June 08, 2015, 04:39:55 pm

Dave, are feeling the load? You've got slashdotted!

I find it funny that for basic EE stuff like this the quality of discussion isn't that high on slashdot. I say that because I've been very often surprised by the collective knowledge of slashdot on anything slightly technical, from atomic power plants to 1800's technology, of course IT, etc. But they've got nothing, NOTHING on eevblog forum for EE stuff.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 08, 2015, 05:19:46 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on June 08, 2015, 12:23:04 pm

Quote from: MrAl on June 08, 2015, 12:12:28 pm

Yes, but to be fair, if you got 800 percent run time out of a battery you normally get only 100 percent run time (say 8 hours as compared to 1 hour) you would not care if the battery gauge was not correct anymore.

Until it totally pisses you off when it dies on you unexpectedly. Personally I'd rather know were I stand with the battery level rather than have to guess/remember when I put the battery in last and how many hours it's been running for.
Murphy will ensure it dies at the most inconvenient time.

Quote

So i think the battery gauge issue is just a small side issue

I think it's a complete show-stopper for many people. Perhaps not if you only used it to get a bit more juice on an otherwise flat battery.

Hello again,

Well, from personal experience with lots of battery operated devices, if i really did get 800 percent run time (to be clear that is 700 percent additional run time) i would easily accept giving up the battery gauge unless i could get a device that allowed it to still function properly and still get 800 percent.  With only 200 percent (100 percent additional) i would have to think about it, but for me 100 percent additional time could be very useful, so i might go with it anyway.

As others have and will point out, battery gauges dont work that well anyway most of the time, or at least not with the devices i have.  For example, my camera tells me 2 or 3 pictures before it dies, which i often miss anyway because i dont want to have to keep looking at the battery gauge.  So my remedy is to carry a spare battery or set of batteries with me, especially if i intend to do a lot of shooting.  That's the only way anyway.  But yes, having the battery gauge could save that special shot that we miss otherwise, if we are diligent about watching the gauge, which we might be if every shot was very important.  For me i guess my shots are not usually that important anyway (mostly still shots for important record keeping), but i could easily see that being a determining factor for sports fans.
What i always intended to do was to count the shots between recharges, and then check the picture number meter (numbers 0001 to 9999 i think) and that way i would know if i shot (say) 100 pictures it was time to change batteries, but i never got diligent enough to do this yet.  Maybe some day :-)
Luckily this camera takes Li-ion so i just pop in one battery to get going again.

I am already a little pissed off that they had the nerve to state "800 percent" <chuckle>
But luckily they were not too smart about picking that number as i think that tips people off right away that something probably isnt right here.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MyCo on June 08, 2015, 06:41:20 pm

I'm not so much familiar with battery powered device design. But looking at this product and daves video, I thought: wouldn't do a buck converter a better job in this? So basically it converts the battery voltage always down to let's say 1.1V and when the input is too low it gets bypassed. That way you could get some more lifetime in linear/unregulated devices by using the peak energy (when the battery is full, and the voltage is high) over a longer time instead of drawing more current than necessary.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Herbert K. on June 08, 2015, 07:38:36 pm

Hi,

 i'm sorry if somebody else mentioned it already and i'm wasting your time, but i didn't read the whole thread, i'm just too tired right now.

If you leave a depleted alkaline cell alone, the voltage will soon recover to about 1.35V (measured only with a typical high impedance voltmeter) But if you put any load what so ever on that cell it will crap out instantly.

I think the "inventors" measured the cell voltage of a dead alkaline without any LOAD and therefore are saying most devices use the cells only down to 1.35V.

When i was a kid, i had the same idea and made the same mistake.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 09, 2015, 01:41:55 am

Here is some great data on used battery capacity:
http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)
About 33% wasted is their figure.
Perhaps Batteroo would be kind enough to publish their data?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 09, 2015, 01:42:34 am

Quote from: Herbert K. on June 08, 2015, 07:38:36 pm

If you leave a depleted alkaline cell alone, the voltage will soon recover to about 1.35V (measured only with a typical high impedance voltmeter) But if you put any load what so ever on that cell it will crap out instantly.
I think the "inventors" measured the cell voltage of a dead alkaline without any LOAD and therefore are saying most devices use the cells only down to 1.35V.

That's the only conclusion I can come to as well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Poe on June 09, 2015, 02:52:42 am

Quote from: EEVblog on June 09, 2015, 01:41:55 am

Here is some great data on used battery capacity:
http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)
About 33% wasted is their figure.
Perhaps Batteroo would be kind enough to publish their data?

From the paper also, 10% were thrown away perfectly new. 

Both figures can easily be attributed to just just human factors and multiple cell devices.  The weak cell dies before the others get to zero and the user throws them all out.

I'm curious how much can be attributed to that, how much is due to an abnormally high device voltage cutoff, or simply a chemical battery recovery issue.

How much usable energy 'comes back' if a battery is discharged hard (like modern cameras) then allowed to 'recover'? 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 09, 2015, 06:33:11 am

Quote from: Poe on June 09, 2015, 02:52:42 am

From the paper also, 10% were thrown away perfectly new. 

Yes, the data will be skewed in terms of being used to backup the Batteriser claims. But it at least puts an upper number on it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 09, 2015, 06:34:23 am

Quote from: Poe on June 09, 2015, 02:52:42 am

How much usable energy 'comes back' if a battery is discharged hard (like modern cameras) then allowed to 'recover'?

None. Energy does not and can not magically "come back". The cell voltage is the thing that "comes back".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 09, 2015, 08:16:15 am

The cell I had discharged to 0.6V jumped back to 1.06V overnight.
A further discharge with the same load as before gave a start current of 115mA at 0.7V, ending at 90mA when it reached 0.6V again, after 4 minutes.
So, there is very little energy recovery in the chemical process (~7%), at that discharge level.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on June 09, 2015, 09:30:24 am

Quote from: EEVblog on June 08, 2015, 09:21:36 am

Quote from: Galenbo on June 08, 2015, 07:51:55 am

As many devices already have a boost converter inside, how do multiple stages of boost converters behave combined?

You get twice the efficiency losses. And the DC-DC in the products usually present a constant power load, which the preceeding DC-DC (Batteriser) might not be as efficient at.

The problem we had is the phenomen known as dynamic energy exchange.
At a certain load, the system swapped between 2 ocillations at 2 eigenfrequencies.

As a separate system, the stability was good, but if we put them together, seems like the stabilisations were playing with eachother.
Another field, but I ask myself if it's maybe possible when putting several DCDC converters after eachother.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 09, 2015, 02:12:07 pm

Quote from: Poe on June 09, 2015, 02:52:42 am

Quote from: EEVblog on June 09, 2015, 01:41:55 am

Here is some great data on used battery capacity:
http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)
About 33% wasted is their figure.
Perhaps Batteroo would be kind enough to publish their data?

From the paper also, 10% were thrown away perfectly new. 

Both figures can easily be attributed to just just human factors and multiple cell devices.  The weak cell dies before the others get to zero and the user throws them all out.

I'm curious how much can be attributed to that, how much is due to an abnormally high device voltage cutoff, or simply a chemical battery recovery issue.

How much usable energy 'comes back' if a battery is discharged hard (like modern cameras) then allowed to 'recover'?

Hi there,

No energy really 'comes back', it is all there to begin with, just hiding a little.

In the more advanced electrical battery models there is a secondary storage component, a capacitor, that is smaller than the primary storage component which is a larger capacitor, and the resistance between the smaller cap and the larger cap is larger than the resistance from the battery terminal to the larger capacitor.
What this means is that when the battery is discharged, the larger capacitor voltage is what we measure when we measure the terminal voltage, while the smaller capacitor still has a slightly higher voltage across it because it does not discharge as much as the main capacitor due to the higher resistance.
When the load is finally disconnected, the smaller capacitor slowly recharges the larger main capacitor, and so we see a voltage rise across the battery terminals.
So the battery really looks sort of like two batteries, but they are not directly in parallel they are separated by a resistance that is larger than the so called series resistance of the battery, and the second smaller battery can charge the bigger main battery a little when the load is disconnected.
You might note however that the smaller battery gets it's energy from the regular charge process too just like the larger battery when the whole battery is charged normally, so there is no extra energy coming from anywhere.
This is still using only a simplified model with only two storage elements but that illustrates the main idea from a purely electrical perspective.
There are various battery models available on the web.

To get back to the main subject of the energy left in a battery when it is disconnected before all it's energy is depleted, here is a quick table of cutoff voltages and the total percent that could be attained if the rest of the energy was used too, compared to what is actually used up to that point...


1.4v  2.3hr  12.2x
1.3v  7.6hr   3.7x
1.2v  17.3hr   1.6x
1.1v  24.7hr   1.1x
1.0v  27.8hr   1.0x

For example in the above, if the cutoff voltage is 1.1v then we would only gain around 10 percent more if we depleted it all the way.  If the cutoff voltage was 1.2v however then we would gain about 60 percent more run time.
These numbers come from a typical battery curve for a 100mw load but are not intended to be super accurate, just for comparison to get a feel for how important the voltage cutoff point really is.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brutte on June 09, 2015, 02:47:13 pm

I really like the idea. It is not a scam, it is a smart BS.
Mind this is one of these devices whose guaranteed performance cannot be verified. Mostly many in average by 800% often frequently and rarely. OTOH, I could swear I have seen a reputable alkaline battery manufacturer claiming their new product means 7x improvement*.

I have one technical remark regarding Dave's presentation.
When you compare integrals, the surfaces confined by some curves and horizontal axis, and the curves have an offset on the plot (as with the voltage=f(time) under load which was offset by 0.8V on that chart, 13:00), be aware not all of your viewers understand the marked region spans down to 0x axis. I feel that some people would think the energy|charge left in a cell is proportional to what you have covered with the marker, while it is not.

*The asterisk is the key.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: DanielS on June 09, 2015, 03:25:52 pm

Quote from: MyCo on June 08, 2015, 06:41:20 pm

I'm not so much familiar with battery powered device design. But looking at this product and daves video, I thought: wouldn't do a buck converter a better job in this? So basically it converts the battery voltage always down to let's say 1.1V and when the input is too low it gets bypassed.

Since the batteriser's claim is that many devices stop working at 1.35V, bucking the voltage down to 1.1V would mean the intended devices would never work in the first place now that the fresh battery voltage is lower than the dead battery threshold.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 09, 2015, 09:09:34 pm

Quote from: Brutte on June 09, 2015, 02:47:13 pm

I really like the idea. It is not a scam, it is a smart BS.
Mind this is one of these devices whose guaranteed performance cannot be verified. Mostly many in average by 800% often frequently and rarely. OTOH, I could swear I have seen a reputable alkaline battery manufacturer claiming their new product means 7x improvement*.

I have one technical remark regarding Dave's presentation.
When you compare integrals, the surfaces confined by some curves and horizontal axis, and the curves have an offset on the plot (as with the voltage=f(time) under load which was offset by 0.8V on that chart, 13:00), be aware not all of your viewers understand the marked region spans down to 0x axis. I feel that some people would think the energy|charge left in a cell is proportional to what you have covered with the marker, while it is not.

*The asterisk is the key.

Hi,

That's a good point.  If the graph does not show anything below some voltage like 0.8 then we are not seeing the entire area, so we might envision the wrong area ratios.
In my post #174 i used a rough curve fit and then solved for the several cutoff voltages and then calculated the ratios, with all calculations using the full curve all th way down to the horizontal axis.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 09, 2015, 09:14:09 pm

Quote from: DanielS on June 09, 2015, 03:25:52 pm

Quote from: MyCo on June 08, 2015, 06:41:20 pm

I'm not so much familiar with battery powered device design. But looking at this product and daves video, I thought: wouldn't do a buck converter a better job in this? So basically it converts the battery voltage always down to let's say 1.1V and when the input is too low it gets bypassed.

Since the batteriser's claim is that many devices stop working at 1.35V, bucking the voltage down to 1.1V would mean the intended devices would never work in the first place now that the fresh battery voltage is lower than the dead battery threshold.

Hi,

The buck converter idea is a very interesting idea, for sure.  If a product could work with less voltage and NOT simultaneously draw more current, then the power consumption would be reduced and so the battery (now properly bucked) would last longer.  For devices with built in boost circuits it would be a waste however because they would just draw more current to make up for the voltage loss :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mrkev on June 09, 2015, 09:50:59 pm

Quote from: MrAl on June 09, 2015, 09:14:09 pm

Quote from: DanielS on June 09, 2015, 03:25:52 pm

Quote from: MyCo on June 08, 2015, 06:41:20 pm

I'm not so much familiar with battery powered device design. But looking at this product and daves video, I thought: wouldn't do a buck converter a better job in this? So basically it converts the battery voltage always down to let's say 1.1V and when the input is too low it gets bypassed.

Since the batteriser's claim is that many devices stop working at 1.35V, bucking the voltage down to 1.1V would mean the intended devices would never work in the first place now that the fresh battery voltage is lower than the dead battery threshold.

Hi,

The buck converter idea is a very interesting idea, for sure.  If a product could work with less voltage and NOT simultaneously draw more current, then the power consumption would be reduced and so the battery (now properly bucked) would last longer.  For devices with built in boost circuits it would be a waste however because they would just draw more current to make up for the voltage loss :-)

It looks like anything you do, it's generally a bad idea to do it on the battery side. Since you have no way to know what kind of input and even V-A characteristic the device has (f.e. they often consume slightly more current on 1.5V than they would at almost discharged batt).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 09, 2015, 10:41:53 pm

Quote from: MrAl on June 09, 2015, 09:14:09 pm

The buck converter idea is a very interesting idea, for sure.  If a product could work with less voltage and NOT simultaneously draw more current, then the power consumption would be reduced and so the battery (now properly bucked) would last longer.  For devices with built in boost circuits it would be a waste however because they would just draw more current to make up for the voltage loss :-)

Buck converters aren't magic, they have efficiency characteristic curves too.
If you want something seamless like this, you need a SEPIC.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MyCo on June 09, 2015, 11:46:19 pm

Quote from: MrAl on June 09, 2015, 09:14:09 pm

For devices with built in boost circuits it would be a waste however because they would just draw more current to make up for the voltage loss :-)

I wrote "I'm not so much familiar with battery powered device design", that doesn't mean I don't know anything about electronics. Therefor I explicitely mentioned "in linear/unregulated devices"!

Quote from: EEVblog on June 09, 2015, 10:41:53 pm

Buck converters aren't magic, they have efficiency characteristic curves too.
If you want something seamless like this, you need a SEPIC.

A SEPIC would be too big in size... there are simpler buck-boost solutions. But that wasn't the point I wanted to make at all. Because the efficiency characteristic wouldn't matter that much in the buck converter idea, because the energy wasted by the buck converter would be lost anyway in linear/unregulated devices as I mentioned before.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 10, 2015, 12:02:16 am

Quote from: MyCo on June 09, 2015, 11:46:19 pm

But that wasn't the point I wanted to make at all. Because the efficiency characteristic wouldn't matter that much in the buck converter idea, because the energy wasted by the buck converter would be lost anyway in linear/unregulated devices as I mentioned before.

So what's the point of the buck converter idea then? Waste the energy in the linear reg in the product, or waste it in the efficiency of the buck converter, same thing either way.
Sure, just like the Batteriser you could find a sweet spot where it's advantageous, but overall it's going to be quite pointless.
And you still have the downside of the battery gauge always showing empty.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MyCo on June 10, 2015, 12:12:30 am

Quote from: EEVblog on June 10, 2015, 12:02:16 am

Waste the energy in the linear reg in the product, or waste it in the efficiency of the buck converter, same thing either way.

Oh, c'mon Dave. You know that's not true.

Quote from: EEVblog on June 10, 2015, 12:02:16 am

And you still have the downside of the battery gauge always showing empty.

There are a lot of products that don't have a gauge, and in many others you actually don't care. And in most linear/unregulated products that's the case.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Someone on June 10, 2015, 01:08:51 am

Quote from: Brutte on June 09, 2015, 02:47:13 pm

I really like the idea. It is not a scam, it is a smart BS.
Mind this is one of these devices whose guaranteed performance cannot be verified. Mostly many in average by 800% often frequently and rarely. OTOH, I could swear I have seen a reputable alkaline battery manufacturer claiming their new product means 7x improvement*.
*The asterisk is the key.

Energizer certainly promote their Lithium line as having up to 6x and 9x the life span of quality alkaline batteries, based only on the industry standard "camera" discharge test. Notable is their lack of application data for the less reputable A91 eveready gold alkaline, which could have arbitrarily high internal impedance to keep it as a low performance tier while still being an "alkaline" cell.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: westfw on June 10, 2015, 08:49:50 am

Quote

what's the point of the buck converter idea then?

A lot of unregulated linear devices will have ohms-law-like current consumption, drawing more current at 1.5V than at 1.2V.   If they actually operate acceptably at 1.2V, you could extend battery life.  A flashlight bulb will run longer with 1.2V cells than 1.5V cells, assuming the same WH in the actual battery and no conversion losses.   It will also run dimmer, which is where "operate acceptably" comes in.
Similarly, a motor would run longer and slower (but at more constant speed as the battery runs down), which might make sense in some toys.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 10, 2015, 09:10:46 am

Quote from: westfw on June 10, 2015, 08:49:50 am

Quote

what's the point of the buck converter idea then?

A lot of unregulated linear devices will have ohms-law-like current consumption, drawing more current at 1.5V than at 1.2V.   If they actually operate acceptably at 1.2V, you could extend battery life.  A flashlight bulb will run longer with 1.2V cells than 1.5V cells, assuming the same WH in the actual battery and no conversion losses.   It will also run dimmer, which is where "operate acceptably" comes in.
Similarly, a motor would run longer and slower (but at more constant speed as the battery runs down), which might make sense in some toys.

It would probably work better as a battery extender than this 'boost' nonsense.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 10, 2015, 09:29:01 am

Quote from: MyCo on June 10, 2015, 12:12:30 am

Quote from: EEVblog on June 10, 2015, 12:02:16 am

Waste the energy in the linear reg in the product, or waste it in the efficiency of the buck converter, same thing either way.

Oh, c'mon Dave. You know that's not true.

Assume 1.3V input to a 1V linear reg, with 1A output.
That's 0.3W drop in the voltage reg.
Use a buck converter to covert same 1.3V to 1V output at 1A. Assume 70% efficient converter and you still drop 0.3W in the switching reg.
Looks like I'm right in the ballpark.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on June 10, 2015, 10:59:23 am

Quote from: westfw on June 10, 2015, 08:49:50 am

A lot of unregulated linear devices will have ohms-law-like current consumption, drawing more current at 1.5V than at 1.2V.   If they actually operate acceptably at 1.2V, you could extend battery life.  A flashlight bulb will run longer with 1.2V cells than 1.5V cells, assuming the same WH in the actual battery and no conversion losses.

His entire marketing strategy run's on the assumption that devices don't work on a 1.2V cell voltage.
But there is more, just look at a graph from his own patent.

Here he is actually stepping up a bit to 1.8V. This might not be the case in the final product, but I could imagine that a small step is actually required for the circuit to properly work.
So if you have a linear device, it could use more power right from the start.

And with this graph his also showing himself how much of the advantage of this batteriser disappears if the cut-off voltage is only dropping from 1.4 to 1.35V.


Edit:
Little (ok big) misinterpretation from my side:
He is actually comparing the time he can generate a fixed voltage against the time that a battery would otherwise be above 1.39 or 1.35 Volt. That gives him approx 7 times more battery life. I was confused by the fact that he showed a voltage of 1.8V in this graph. The text clearly states that he generates 1.5V no matter what the battery does:

Quote

A fresh AA battery provides a voltage to regulator 105 in the range of 1.5V to 1.6V. Output 102 of regulator 105 is then regulated to 1.5V,

So the difference between the text and the graph is a bit strange.

But you can also see that if your device otherwise goes down to 1V, then the batteriser will kindly half your battery life.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 10, 2015, 01:40:15 pm

Hello again,

Back to the buck idea again for a moment...

If the input is 1.5v and the output is 1.1v and the device can tolerate that, the efficiency using a linear regulator to go from 1.5 down to 1.1 would be about 36 percent better than without it assuming the load is resistive.  This is mostly because the resistive load draws less current at the lower voltage.

For the same operating conditions and load, the buck converter operating at 90 percent efficiency would raise the efficiency by about 69 percent, which is about twice that of the linear.  This is because of the two factors: the load current falls because of the lower voltage and the buck circuit provides a true power conversion.

They both fall short though as the battery voltage falls down to 1.4v, 1.3v, etc., as the efficiency would not be as good anymore.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brutte on June 10, 2015, 02:34:17 pm

Quote from: MrAl on June 09, 2015, 09:09:34 pm

Quote from: Brutte on June 09, 2015, 02:47:13 pm

I have one technical remark regarding Dave's presentation.

That's a good point.(..) In my post #174 i used a rough curve fit and then solved for the several cutoff voltages and then calculated the ratios

Another thing worth noting is that the integral of u(t) on a power=const curve does not represent any meaningful quantity (that I know of). The area is proportional to the integral of reciprocal of i(t).
The energy left that you/we were interested in is simply proportional to the distance left on the time axis on that chart - no need to integrate anything (that is the core idea of that chart anyway). I have just noticed that you follow Dave's mistake (13:00). Oops.

If you would like the area to be proportional to something meaningful, I'd suggest integrating either voltage of constant current discharge curve (then the area is proportional to the energy) or simply integrating current on a current=f(something) chart (then the area is proportional to the charge).
Still, my previous offset remark applies.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrAl on June 11, 2015, 02:17:36 pm

Quote from: Brutte on June 10, 2015, 02:34:17 pm

Quote from: MrAl on June 09, 2015, 09:09:34 pm

Quote from: Brutte on June 09, 2015, 02:47:13 pm

I have one technical remark regarding Dave's presentation.

That's a good point.(..) In my post #174 i used a rough curve fit and then solved for the several cutoff voltages and then calculated the ratios

Another thing worth noting is that the integral of u(t) on a power=const curve does not represent any meaningful quantity (that I know of). The area is proportional to the integral of reciprocal of i(t).
The energy left that you/we were interested in is simply proportional to the distance left on the time axis on that chart - no need to integrate anything (that is the core idea of that chart anyway). I have just noticed that you follow Dave's mistake (13:00). Oops.

If you would like the area to be proportional to something meaningful, I'd suggest integrating either voltage of constant current discharge curve (then the area is proportional to the energy) or simply integrating current on a current=f(something) chart (then the area is proportional to the charge).
Still, my previous offset remark applies.

Hi,

I am not sure why but you must have misinterpreted my post, or else i did not explain what i did clearly enough.

First, i never integrated anything.  All i did was do a quick curve fit of the constant power curve, then solved for specific voltage set points that are easy to relate to such as 1.4, 1.3, 1.2, and 1.1 volts.  So there was no area calculation of any kind, just one calculation for the exact voltage set point, then another calculation for the ratio of two time values in hours.
The first calculation is just like using the inverse function of the constant power discharge curve, which given a voltage, yields a time in hours.  The ratio is then the time in hours to discharge to 0.8v divided by the time to discharge to the given voltage set point (such as 1.3v).  This ratio is then a number like 1.6, and because that is a ratio that expresses the entire gain the actual gain over a normal run without any circuit would be 1, so the gain with a circuit (that works that is) would be 1.6-1 and of course this equals 0.6 and that is the percent gain in time expressed as a fraction so this would mean 60 percent more run time.
Also just to be clear, this would be with a boost circuit that is 100 percent efficient with any input voltage.  We'd have to cut this back of course for a boost circuit that ranges from 50 to 90 percent efficient, and if they got 95 percent efficiency from their circuit i'd be very surprised seeing as they dont know how to calculate anything else <little chuckle> :-)

Short form of the math i used:
For v(t) = approximate constant power discharge curve,
t = T(v), where T is the inverse function of v(t), and t in hours, v in volts,
t1=T(0.8 ), the time to discharge to 0.8v, in hours,
then the total gain ratio is:
r(t)=t1/t for any given time t, or:
r(v)=t1/T(v) for any given cutoff voltage.

I'll also point out that the curve from 0.8v to 0.6v is almost a straight line down so there is very little gain in time to add there if we went all the way down to 0.6v.

So we see ratios of about 1.0 to 12 or so, but many of these cutoff points are not realistic that's what makes this whole product seem like a bunch of bool crap :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on June 13, 2015, 02:18:44 pm

Today the Batteriser hit the German mainstream news:
 http://www.welt.de/wissenschaft/article142416810/So-sollen-Batterien-acht-Mal-laenger-halten.html (http://www.welt.de/wissenschaft/article142416810/So-sollen-Batterien-acht-Mal-laenger-halten.html)

At least they are asking some very good and critical questions.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dizzwold on June 17, 2015, 08:45:43 pm

I also wonder about the figures quoted. My trackpad '2x 1.5v AA's', drops off at about 1.1v. So realistically, we're all get more value for our money than the Batteriser states.
The one thing that i do find odd in the demo video 'used with a wireless Mac keyboard', is they use 2 batteries in series, then 2 batteries again with the devices fitted in series? If these are simple 1.5v step up converters on each battery, how do they get the required 3v. The batteries on there own, i can appreciate that, but then having a circuit on each battery, then put them in series, your surly adding a reverse polarity to 1 of those circuits.
Does that make sense, or am i having a senior moment?
How is this done?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: DanielS on June 18, 2015, 10:15:21 pm

Quote from: dizzwold on June 17, 2015, 08:45:43 pm

The batteries on there own, i can appreciate that, but then having a circuit on each battery, then put them in series, your surly adding a reverse polarity to 1 of those circuits.

Each battery gets "boosted" to 1.5V by its own boost converter, no reverse polarity there unless one of the cells is too weak to operate its booster.

This gets really silly since:
1- boosting individual cells is horribly inefficient compared to boosting (or bucking) the total voltage only once
2- I bet the majority of semi-recent Apple and other decent quality products have their own internal buck/boost converters

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dizzwold on June 19, 2015, 01:23:52 pm

@DanileS,

 Thanks for that, regarding 'boost the total voltage', not each cell, but;
If each cell has it's own booster, powered from the + & - of the cell, when you put 2 in series your supplying the 2nd cell with 1.5v's from the 1st cell, your also supplying 1.5v's to the ground of the second cells booster circuit?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ruffy91 on June 19, 2015, 02:20:47 pm

Yes. So you add 1.5V of the second booster to the 1.5V of the first booster and get 1.5V+1.5V=3V

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on June 22, 2015, 02:10:43 am

Quote from: ruffy91 on June 19, 2015, 02:20:47 pm

Yes. So you add 1.5V of the second booster to the 1.5V of the first booster and get 1.5V+1.5V=3V

Wait... wait... two batteries?!?!?!  all you have to do is add a wheel and some magnets and you get......

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-708-free-energy-bullshit (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-708-free-energy-bullshit)!/

Where is DaveWing when you need him!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on June 25, 2015, 05:18:02 pm

Since many cheap devices use more energy at higher voltage (eg if it has a linear regulator inside or is completely unregulated), boosting the voltage to a constant 1.5 might actually reduce battery life, add to that the losses in the converter itself. :palm:
Well designed devices will already have a custom tailored boost converter inside if there's any benefit to it. I would be surprised (and even impressed) if this thing doesn't reduce battery life in most devices. So yeah: :bullshit:

Also there could be performance problem because the boost regulator will introduce a lot of ripple noise, some battery operated devices rely on the low noise characteristic of a battery voltage source.

The only benefit one should hope to get from this is to squeeze a few extra drops out of an already "dead" battery: the question is if this gadget will be able to generate enough extra operating time in that case that it would be worth the trouble. Will be interesting to see some actual tests of this thing.

There really should be laws against marketing scams like this.

Quote from: Galenbo on June 09, 2015, 09:30:24 am

The problem we had is the phenomen known as dynamic energy exchange.
At a certain load, the system swapped between 2 ocillations at 2 eigenfrequencies.

As a separate system, the stability was good, but if we put them together, seems like the stabilisations were playing with eachother.
Another field, but I ask myself if it's maybe possible when putting several DCDC converters after eachother.

Interesting so they were acting sort of like coupled oscillators or some such?

UPDATE:
They now also have a video "proving" that it works by showing how the battery gauge goes up from 13% to 100% like magic when you add the batterizer! This is definitely 100% bs.

https://vimeo.com/130292451

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 26, 2015, 09:37:29 pm

Quote from: apis on June 25, 2015, 05:18:02 pm

UPDATE:
They now also have a video "proving" that it works by showing how the battery gauge goes up from 13% to 100% like magic when you add the batterizer! This is definitely 100% bs.

vimeo.com/130292451

"Comments have been disabled for this video..."   :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 26, 2015, 10:54:30 pm

Quote from: Fungus on June 26, 2015, 09:37:29 pm

Quote from: apis on June 25, 2015, 05:18:02 pm

UPDATE:
They now also have a video "proving" that it works by showing how the battery gauge goes up from 13% to 100% like magic when you add the batterizer! This is definitely 100% bs.

vimeo.com/130292451

"Comments have been disabled for this video..."   :-DD

Gee, I wonder why...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 26, 2015, 11:10:14 pm

From their FAQ:

Quote

Are there limitations on devices that can use the Batteriser based on the current consumptions? No, the Batteriser sleeve is designed to deliver as much current as a battery is able to supply to the device.

Really, no limitations on current? At all?
No change in the expected life gain based on current? At all?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on June 28, 2015, 11:43:53 pm

On some other forum someone mentioned a "joule thief 2.0" which allegedly works sort of like a voltage doubler/charge pump. An IC would switch capacitors so that they charge in parallel and then unload in series so that you get higher voltage out. Would that work in this case? Not sure if that's what the batteriser does but it could explain why there is no large inductor visible. Still couldn't work as advertised though since Daves debunking arguments are valid no matter how it operates.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 29, 2015, 10:12:04 am

Quote from: apis on June 28, 2015, 11:43:53 pm

On some other forum someone mentioned a "joule thief 2.0" which allegedly works sort of like a voltage doubler/charge pump. An IC would switch capacitors so that they charge in parallel and then unload in series so that you get higher voltage out. Would that work in this case?

It might, but ... in this case you definitely don't want to double the voltage. It would wreck stuff.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 29, 2015, 10:19:13 am

Quote from: EEVblog on June 26, 2015, 11:10:14 pm

From their FAQ:

Quote

Are there limitations on devices that can use the Batteriser based on the current consumptions? No, the Batteriser sleeve is designed to deliver as much current as a battery is able to supply to the device.

Really, no limitations on current? At all?
No change in the expected life gain based on current? At all?

I think this statement is the least of their sins. Most devices won't be discharging at a current that would cause problems.

Maybe that's why their inductor is so small - they assume very small currents (and, hey, a battery is quite a big heatsink if you make it work hard).

Their whole strategy isn't based on this thing working well. It's about selling as many as they can to the sort of people who'll just shrug when it doesn't work out as promised.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on June 29, 2015, 04:55:15 pm

Quote from: Fungus on June 29, 2015, 10:12:04 am

Quote from: apis on June 28, 2015, 11:43:53 pm

On some other forum someone mentioned a "joule thief 2.0" which allegedly works sort of like a voltage doubler/charge pump. An IC would switch capacitors so that they charge in parallel and then unload in series so that you get higher voltage out. Would that work in this case?

It might, but ... in this case you definitely don't want to double the voltage. It would wreck stuff.

Yes, but with a little bit extra you should be able to regulate the output to between 1x and 2x the input voltage, that should work down to approx 0.75V which is what the batteriser claims to do. I googled a little and found this IC from maxim: MAX682 (http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/power/charge-pumps/MAX682.html). You should be able to do the same for approximately 0.75-1.5V in and get regulated 1.5V out. I have never used this type of converter so not sure if there's some downside to it that prevents it from working in this case but it could explain how they got it so small and why there is no inductor visible, only requires three relatively small capacitors. Of course there will be current limitations and losses in this type of regulator as well and the 1.4V cutoff assumption is false no matter how it works.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 29, 2015, 05:21:22 pm

Quote from: apis on June 29, 2015, 04:55:15 pm

Quote from: Fungus on June 29, 2015, 10:12:04 am

Quote from: apis on June 28, 2015, 11:43:53 pm

On some other forum someone mentioned a "joule thief 2.0" which allegedly works sort of like a voltage doubler/charge pump. An IC would switch capacitors so that they charge in parallel and then unload in series so that you get higher voltage out. Would that work in this case?

It might, but ... in this case you definitely don't want to double the voltage. It would wreck stuff.

Yes, but with a little bit extra you should be able to regulate the output to between 1x and 2x the input voltage, that should work down to approx 0.75V which is what the batteriser claims to do.

How is that better than just regulating it directly to 1.5V?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on June 29, 2015, 06:09:16 pm

I think the benefit compared to typical boost circuit is that it is easier to miniaturize since you don't need the inductor.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on June 29, 2015, 06:22:04 pm

They guy popped up in the youtube comments, in full-retard repetitive mode.
Saying something about ESR and internal resistance, patents and PhD's.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on June 29, 2015, 06:41:44 pm

It's a safe bet someone is wrong when their only argument is they have a PhD.  ::)

If it really does work they could always send Dave a prototype for testing, would be interesting. :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 29, 2015, 07:03:32 pm

Quote from: apis on June 29, 2015, 06:09:16 pm

I think the benefit compared to typical boost circuit is that it is easier to miniaturize since you don't need the inductor.

But if you double the voltage you have to regulate it down again so that needs an inductor.

(Unless you're thinking of using a linear regulator and throwing away half the battery power...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on June 29, 2015, 07:04:42 pm

Quote from: apis on June 29, 2015, 04:55:15 pm

Quote from: Fungus on June 29, 2015, 10:12:04 am

Quote from: apis on June 28, 2015, 11:43:53 pm

On some other forum someone mentioned a "joule thief 2.0" which allegedly works sort of like a voltage doubler/charge pump. An IC would switch capacitors so that they charge in parallel and then unload in series so that you get higher voltage out. Would that work in this case?

It might, but ... in this case you definitely don't want to double the voltage. It would wreck stuff.

Yes, but with a little bit extra you should be able to regulate the output to between 1x and 2x the input voltage, that should work down to approx 0.75V which is what the batteriser claims to do. I googled a little and found this IC from maxim: MAX682 (http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/power/charge-pumps/MAX682.html). You should be able to do the same for approximately 0.75-1.5V in and get regulated 1.5V out. I have never used this type of converter so not sure if there's some downside to it that prevents it from working in this case but it could explain how they got it so small and why there is no inductor visible, only requires three relatively small capacitors. Of course there will be current limitations and losses in this type of regulator as well and the 1.4V cutoff assumption is false no matter how it works.

The main problem with all those switched capacitor converters is the efficiency: It can only adjust the voltage in multiples of the input voltage. If you generate 1.5V from a 1.4V battery this voltage gets doubled to 2.8V and the difference to 1.5V wasted as heat. The MAX682 datasheet has no efficiency vs input voltage diagram, but it shows on page 4 the efficiency for a number of different input voltages. Unlike inductor bases converters, the efficiency drops when the input voltage increases.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 29, 2015, 07:06:13 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on June 29, 2015, 06:22:04 pm

They guy popped up in the youtube comments, in full-retard repetitive mode.
Saying something about ESR and internal resistance, patents and PhD's.....

I'm just hoping it blows up in his face before he has time to rip anybody off.

Seriously, why isn't the news all over this? I thought new outlets loved uncovering fraudsters.

There should be reporters hounding him for answers and making him look stupid on national TV. I'd pay to watch that.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on June 29, 2015, 07:46:58 pm

Quote from: Fungus on June 29, 2015, 07:03:32 pm

But if you double the voltage you have to regulate it down again so that needs an inductor.

(Unless you're thinking of using a linear regulator and throwing away half the battery power...)

Based on the datasheet it looks like they charge the output capacitor only when it's below a threshold voltage (i.e. the desired output voltage), so doesn't use a linear regulator. But as bktemp says efficiency is low anyway?

---
So they have also put up a "batteriser fan page ::)" on google plus, claiming that engineers don't know about battery ESR

Quote

Most electronic engineers are not very familiar with intricate details of the inter-workings of batteries and its equivalent circuit models. Batteries have an internal impedance or resistance (ESR) that plays a major role in operation of a battery in a system.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on June 29, 2015, 08:27:30 pm

Quote from: Fungus on June 29, 2015, 08:11:57 pm

I'm not sure what datasheet you're referring to

I was looking at the MAX682 (http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/power/charge-pumps/MAX682.html) on page 6 there's a block diagram (Figure 3. Skip-Mode Regulation). Yes there would be a lot of ripple.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 30, 2015, 06:10:05 am

Quote from: apis on June 29, 2015, 08:27:30 pm

Quote from: Fungus on June 29, 2015, 08:11:57 pm

I'm not sure what datasheet you're referring to

I was looking at the MAX682 (http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/power/charge-pumps/MAX682.html) on page 6 there's a block diagram (Figure 3. Skip-Mode Regulation).

OK.

Quick glance says it needs 1µF caps per 100mA of output current. This thing needs to put out more than 100mA so would it really be smaller than an inductor?

Quote from: apis on June 29, 2015, 08:27:30 pm

Yes there would be a lot of ripple.

I imagine so...  :o

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 30, 2015, 09:23:23 am

Quote from: apis on June 29, 2015, 07:46:58 pm

To keep the ripple in check you you might need a fourth capacitor across the battery so that the two parallel-series-switched capacitors in the middle will charge up faster (it will have a lower ESR than the battery).

I almost got it...  :)

The way they do it is to permanently connect one of the two 'charge transfer' capacitors across the source (ie. it doesn't switch). The chip only switches the other charge transfer capacitor between series/parallel to charge up the main output capacitor.

Pity it needs a 2.7V input. That means you can't run it from 2 batteries, it really limits its usefulness.  :(

Wait! I heard about this thing called 'The Batteriser' that can fix that problem!!


Update: I checked out Maxims other chips and there's one that can use an extra capacitor to triple the input voltage and get 5V from two batteries - the MAX619 (http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/power/charge-pumps/MAX619.html#popuppdf). Not very efficient though, only 60-70% with two batteries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on June 30, 2015, 09:34:18 am

Quote from: Fungus on June 30, 2015, 09:23:23 am

Update: I checked out Maxims other chips and there's one that can use an extra capacitor to triple the input voltage and get 5V from two batteries - the MAX619 (http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/power/charge-pumps/MAX619.html#popuppdf). Not very efficient though, only 60-70% with two batteries.

On page 3 there is a nice EFFICIENCY vs. INPUT VOLTAGE diagram showing the efficiency jump hat 2.5-3.0V when it switches from 3x to 2x mode.
If you want higher efficiency use a boost converter like MCP1640 or TPS6109x and many others. They all have a higher efficiency and lower ripple current. The inductors can be really small at >1MHz switching frequency. That is why charge pumps are rarely used in such applications.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 30, 2015, 09:48:58 am

Quote from: bktemp on June 30, 2015, 09:34:18 am

Quote from: Fungus on June 30, 2015, 09:23:23 am

Update: I checked out Maxims other chips and there's one that can use an extra capacitor to triple the input voltage and get 5V from two batteries - the MAX619 (http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/power/charge-pumps/MAX619.html#popuppdf). Not very efficient though, only 60-70% with two batteries.

On page 3 there is a nice EFFICIENCY vs. INPUT VOLTAGE diagram showing the efficiency jump hat 2.5-3.0V when it switches from 3x to 2x mode.

Yep, I saw that. It's where I got my 60-70% figure from.

I'm sure these chips have their place. I was interested because they come in DIP packages so it would be easy for a hacker like me to add one to some perf-board in a battery-powered Arduino project.

OTOH I can get little inductor-based booster boards on eBay for a lot less money (MAXIM pricing!). And they work down to 0.7V. And they need less soldering.

Quote from: bktemp on June 30, 2015, 09:34:18 am

If you want higher efficiency use a boost converter. The inductors can be really small at >1MHz switching frequency.

I wonder if that's what The Batteriser uses...?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 30, 2015, 01:12:07 pm

Someone pointed me to this response from Batteriser, apparently in response to my video and criticism from others:
https://plus.google.com/+BatteriserBatteroo/posts/8emCWUBJbve (https://plus.google.com/+BatteriserBatteroo/posts/8emCWUBJbve)
Apparently it's a non-affiliated "fan page"  ::)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A)
Yeah right, someone went to all the trouble to make a fan page for a startup tech, and they go around defending the product in comments, like on this video here, yeah that sounds totally legit  ::)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOMYDkxUWt8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOMYDkxUWt8)  :-DD

It's late and I couldn't be bothered reading it all, so go for it...

Quoted here in full in case it vanishes:

Quote

After seeing all the skepticism online, the Batteriser inventors answered a Q and A! We got a hold of the that Q and A with Batteriser! Here it is and I hope it helps you all get a better understanding of the product:
“Question 1: In the articles I have seen about Batteriser, your CEO claims that most battery operated devices stop working at around 1.3 or even higher. I have seen videos online that someone connects a power supply and shows that some typical devices work down to 1.1V or even lower, showing LED’s on a device still blink at that level. What is the explanation?
Answer:  There are multiple aspects to this issue. Let’s start with the less complicated aspect:
1.   Just because LED in a device is blinking, it doesn’t mean the device is fully functional. In one of our experiments with an RC remote, at 1.3 volt the car would only go forward, but not backwards. We use the voltage that the device is no longer fully functional as the cut off voltage rather than the voltage that the device’s LED is still blinking. In yet another example that most people can relate to, we all have had experience with our TV remotes. Once a battery gets to a low level, even though the LED blinks, you literally have to walk right up to the TV for it to work. Again, the batteries are considered dead by most, long before LED’s stop blinking. So the levels demonstrated in experiments like that are artificially too low.
2.   Using a Power Supply to detect, where a battery operated device stops working is wrong and misleading at best. A power supply has 0 ohm impedance and can supply high current at a constant voltage. A typical AA battery has internal resistance called ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) which is vastly different than an ideal power supply.  Most electronic engineers are not very familiar with intricate details of the inter-workings of batteries and its equivalent circuit models. Batteries have an internal impedance or resistance (ESR) that plays a major role in operation of a battery in a system. To Quote from Wikipedia: In use, the voltage across the terminals of a disposable battery driving a load decreases until it drops too low to be useful; this is largely due to an increase in internal resistance rather than a drop in the voltage of the equivalent source (source: Wikipedia). In other words, when a battery is perceived to be dead in a device, it is most likely NOT because the battery is fully depleted of energy, rather it is largely due to voltage drop across this internal resistance of the battery. I will get into more details below.
3.   The third aspect may be the difference in definition of the voltages being quoted. There are two distinct ways of looking at voltages that people discuss but sometimes mistakenly interchange.   One is the Open Circuit Voltage (referred to voltage at no load condition) and the other one is the Closed Voltage Circuit (referred to voltage under load condition). The two numbers that are quoted from the CEO and your question is an example of this incorrect interchange.
To fully appreciate the totality of the picture, Let us talk about ESR (Equivalent Series Resistor). To understand how ESR interacts at a circuit level, let’s go to Wikipedia:
A practical electrical power source which is a linear electric circuit may, according to Thévenin's theorem, be represented as an ideal voltage source in series with an impedance. This impedance is termed the internal resistance of the source. When the power source delivers current, the measured voltage output is lower than the no-load voltage; the difference is the voltage drop (the product of current and resistance) caused by the internal resistance.
A battery may be modeled as a voltage source in series with a resistance. In practice, the internal resistance of a battery is dependent on its size, chemical properties, age, temperature, and the discharge current. It has an electronic component due to the resistivity of the component materials and an ionic component due to electrochemical factors such as electrolyte conductivity, ion mobility, and electrode surface area. Measurement of the internal resistance of a battery is a guide to its condition, but may not apply at other than the test conditions.
In use, the voltage across the terminals of a disposable battery driving a load decreases until it drops too low to be useful; this is largely due to an increase in internal resistance rather than a drop in the voltage of the equivalent source.
To learn more, please, visit Energizer’s technical Bulletin at http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/BatteryIR.pdf. (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/BatteryIR.pdf.) The data from this bulletin shows that the typical effective resistance of fresh Energizer alkaline cylindrical batteries will be approximately 150 to 300 m-ohms at room temperature. It further shows that at very cold temperatures, this initial internal resistance value could be as high as 900 m-ohm, or roughly 1 ohm. This resistance further increases as the battery is used. Therefore the ESR value of a fresh new AA battery has an approximate range of 150 m-ohm to 900 m-ohm depending on temperature, chemistry, types and brands of batteries. While a resistance of 1 ohm may be considered insignificant and ignored by some people, we will see that it plays a major role in the final analysis as highlighted above in the Wikipedia description in the paragraph above.
For the sake of this analysis, assume 0.5 ohm as the internal resistance, which is a typical value for a battery at 1.3v (Open Circuit Voltage). If a device draws 400mA of current, the drop across this internal resistance is around 0.2v. This means that the device would see only 1.1V at the terminal of the battery.
The third aspect of the question is that when Batteroo’s CEO talks about batteries stop functioning at 1.3V, if you place that battery in a device described above, under load, the terminals of the battery would provide only 1.1V to the device and that is where the questioner agrees the device stops functioning. This is most likely the source of the discrepancy between what you stated as the low range of operation of devices vs. what is quoted as the open voltage of the batteries by the company.
Going back to your question that there are devices that operate at 1.1V but based on what we just showed this device will not function because it needs to have current supplied  from a battery with terminal voltage of 1.1 V. This means that the device would not be functioning properly around 1.3 V open voltage circuit (i.e. open circuit voltage of 1.3 v minus about 0.2v drop across ESR would produce a battery terminal voltage of 1.1 v seen by the device) …. Therefore the battery open voltage circuit must be 1.3 v or higher.
This is an important point which plays a significant role and has been missed and ignored. In other words, once a device with the operating point of 1.1v stops working, and the battery is pulled out and measured without load, the meter would show 1.3V. This has been a source of confusion for some people that hopefully is cleared.
To emphasize the point, ignoring the internal resistance of the battery leads to wrong conclusions. For example, some who ignored the ESR, would wrongly assume that a device that has an operating cut off voltage of 1.1V, can be serviced by a battery at 1.1V Open Circuit Voltage. It is noteworthy that the internal resistance of the battery increases to over 1.5  ohm in a non-linear fashion at room temperature (depending on many factors, and could be significantly higher at colder temperature. 
Question 2: I measured a used battery voltage using volt-meter and showed 1.2v. This toy can work all the way down to 1.1v but it is not working. Why?
Answer:  The fact that you battery is not working indicates that the closed circuit voltage is seen by the toy when is turned on is less than 1 volt. This suggests that your voltage drop across the internal resistance (ESR) is greater than 0.2 volts.
This 0.2 voltage drop is multiplication of load current and the ESR value of battery which indicated that the battery has high ESR and/or your toy is drawing a few hundred milliamps of current…
Let us say your toy is drawing 300 ma and the battery ESR is about 0.7 ohm, then your toy sees the terminal battery voltage to be under 1 volt; (i.e. open circuit of 1.2v minus the voltage drop across ESR  0.7 ohm times 300 ma is equal to closed circuit voltage of about  0.99 volt which is under 1 volt)   
Question 3: The relationship between current and voltage makes it impossible for a boosted battery to deliver such great gains, up to 8x. Besides the example below, there’s this one from Reddit: “In order to increase the voltage supplied to the target electronics, you would have to draw more current. Therefore as the battery voltage droops, the current draw will increase. Alkaline battery capacity is greatly affected by the current the cell is subjected to, with effective capacity dropping off a cliff as the current consumption increases.”
Answer:  Every system, boosted or not, has voltage and currents relationship and to say: "The relationship between current and voltage makes it impossible for a boosted battery to deliver such great gains, from 5x to 8x" is meaningless. However the most important aspect of extending the life of the battery has to do with how much of the energy left in the battery and how much of that energy can be harnessed after the battery is considered dead, depending on the specifics of devices and load conditions. Obviously to get these types of gains implies that there is significant amount of energy left is the battery as it is discarded. That could be improved by better device design that allow the circuitry to work at lower voltages, and there are devices in the market that are better than others and therefore the mileage would vary based on such  factors.
It is true that as the voltage drops, there is some increase in the current. However that current is being consumed from the energy that was in the battery and was going to be discarded at the point it was perceived to be dead.
Question 4: How does flash light benefit from Batteriser?
Answer: There are two types of devices, one with Passive load and the other with Active load:
 1.   Passive loads such as Flashlights that draw the current out of the battery until it is depleted, but the intensity of the light becomes too low for it to be useful. We measured the intensity of the light from a flashlight on a side by side comparison of, with and without Batteriser. They both started at 60 lux and after two hours, the flashlight utilizing the Batteriser maintained its 60 lux light intensity while the flashlight without Batteriser decreased its intensity to 25 lux.
2.  Active Loads such as electronic devices that usually have a cut off voltage.
Question 5: There are some well-built devices have dc-dc conversion (or similar power management) built in, so Batteriser wouldn’t help. For example, this comment was made on Reddit: “For something like a GameBoy, it actually DOES include a good switching power supply, which is why it got great runtime out of those batteries. The DMG01 was quite happy down to nearly 3V (less than 0.8V per cell, anyway).”
Answer: The question above is an actual proof of why the Batteriser is going to extend the life of the battery. The assertion that a GameBoy device is benefiting from a DC-DC and getting “great runtime” is a validation of the concept of the Batteriser. There are systems that have or may have designed these types of converters inside their electronics. Such devices are usually expensive and putting the added cost of the electronics is offset by the competitive advantage gained relative to their competition. As well, this example implies that the system must have 4 AA batteries. There are regulators in the market that would boost voltages at these levels. Batteriser uses a boost circuitry that can work down to 0.5v. You will not find any solutions in the market that allows systems with single battery boosting capabilities. Batteroo had to design a custom IC that allows boosting of the voltage from 0.5V and currents of over one Amp steady state at very high efficiency. In many systems that use one AA battery, there is no solutions in the market to provide the same benefits of extended life.
Question 6: In low-drain devices like (I assume) a TV remote, the actual shelf life of the battery will be over before the Batteriser delivers noticeable gains. For example, this comment on Macworld: “Since most batteries (excluding some lithium types) have shelf lives of say 5 years or less, then taking a low drain application scenario where the batteries will naturally last two years or more (i.e. a remote…), then boosting the battery life by the claimed 8X would mean your 5 years shelf-life battery would be “good-to-go” for up to 40 years!  Doesn’t take an engineer to tell you “it ain’t gonna happen!!”
Answer: Batteriser does work with voltage and current, regardless of the chemistry. We have seen improvement even with lithium battery. For those folks that change a battery every 5 years, we recommend not to utilize Batteriser technology.  However if you are like most of us living in an average household having 25 battery operated devices and having to continuously change batteries, Batteriser would certainly be a good choice to extend the time between battery changes by 8x depending on the end device.”?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 30, 2015, 01:19:19 pm

 :-DD  :-DD
Anyone who can identify these models/actors, err, sorry, "fans", wins a lifetime supply of Batterisers!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP2kuEzySP8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP2kuEzySP8)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 30, 2015, 01:29:56 pm

It gets even funnier!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkfdm8soHyU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkfdm8soHyU)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 30, 2015, 04:06:13 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on June 30, 2015, 01:29:56 pm

It gets even funnier!

Australian accents add comedy to anything they touch.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on June 30, 2015, 10:17:11 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on June 30, 2015, 01:12:07 pm

Yeah right, someone went to all the trouble to make a fan page for a startup tech, and they go around defending the product in comments, like on this video here, yeah that sounds totally legit  ::)

Yeah, those videos look totally fan made. :palm: Maybe the "fans" just accidentally hired the same pr-firm that the batterizer uses! :-DD

Quote from: EEVblog on June 30, 2015, 01:12:07 pm

It's late and I couldn't be bothered reading it all, so go for it...

That is probably the point, it's important to put up a rebuttal, but they don't wan't anyone to read it too carefully or else they might spot the BS. I especially like how they claim most electrical engineers don't know about ESR.  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 30, 2015, 10:24:37 pm

Quote from: apis on June 30, 2015, 10:17:11 pm

I especially like how they claim most electrical engineers don't know about ESR.  :-DD

The funniest thing about them claiming I didn't take into account ESR in my PSU test, is that if I did take ESR into account (i.e. the drop in the test leads and connection in the PSU case), then the results would have been better for my case and worse for their case  :palm:
By not taking the test leads and connection drop into account I was cutting them some slack. Of course, the battery discharge curves do take into account ESR, so any argument there is silly and it's clear they have no idea what they are talking about. And that's obvious to any competent engineer without having even reading their (I'm sure) waffle.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on June 30, 2015, 10:46:21 pm

Yeah, and if it was legit it would be so easy for them to prove it, just send out a device for testing. I would happily think it's a success if it gives only 25% extra battery-life (in most devices)! (But the typical scammer response to this is that they can't because then you will steal their trade secrets...)

EDIT:
Yes, they seem to be arguing the 1.4V cutoff voltage refers to unloaded battery voltage, but then the claim of 80% wasted energy makes no sense, just proves you were right. :-//  :palm:

Quote from: EEVblog on June 30, 2015, 10:24:37 pm

And that's obvious to any competent engineer without having even reading their (I'm sure) waffle.

it's probably not intended to fool engineers, it's some complicated sounding waffle to comfort those in doubt who don't know any electronics.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 30, 2015, 11:33:24 pm

Quote from: apis on June 30, 2015, 10:46:21 pm

Yeah, and if it was legit it would be so easy for them to prove it, just send out a device for testing. I would happily think it's a success if it gives only 25% extra battery-life (in most devices)! (But the typical scammer response to this is that they can't because then you will steal their trade secrets...)

They claim on their Facebook page they will release the data and prove their claims.
They claim they are still compiling the data. So they've spent several years developing this, patents applications, are rpactically on the verge of selling production ready parts, have had countless time and energy to produce slick marketign campaign, but they haven't been able to compile data that proves beyond doubt that their product actually works as well as claimed?  :-//
Skeptical engineers like us are very easy to shut up, just show us the data that proves it and we'll happily admit we were wrong and that this is the best thing since sliced bread.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=159117;image)

Quote

Yes, they seem to be arguing the 1.4V cutoff voltage refers to unloaded battery voltage, but then the claim of 80% wasted energy makes no sense, just proves you were right. :-//  :palm:

That's the only conclusion any engineer can too, they are measuring the unloaded battery voltage. In whcih case they aren't taking into account the ESR during operation, and it's a fundamentally wrong way to measure battery voltage for remaining capacity calculations.
They are running out of legs to stand on.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 01, 2015, 12:12:23 am

Quote

The third aspect of the question is that when Batteroo’s CEO talks about batteries stop functioning at 1.3V, if you place that battery in a device described above, under load, the terminals of the battery would provide only 1.1V to the device and that is where the questioner agrees the device stops functioning. This is most likely the source of the discrepancy between what you stated as the low range of operation of devices vs. what is quoted as the open voltage of the batteries by the company.
Going back to your question that there are devices that operate at 1.1V but based on what we just showed this device will not function because it needs to have current supplied  from a battery with terminal voltage of 1.1 V. This means that the device would not be functioning properly around 1.3 V open voltage circuit (i.e. open circuit voltage of 1.3 v minus about 0.2v drop across ESR would produce a battery terminal voltage of 1.1 v seen by the device) …. Therefore the battery open voltage circuit must be 1.3 v or higher.
This is an important point which plays a significant role and has been missed and ignored. In other words, once a device with the operating point of 1.1v stops working, and the battery is pulled out and measured without load, the meter would show 1.3V. This has been a source of confusion for some people that hopefully is cleared.

Holy crap!
They actually did admit that they are measuring the open circuit voltage of the battery!  :-DD  :palm:
Wow, just wow.
They are done. Their product is bunk right there, they have admitted it, no doubt about it.
If I made that newbie error I'd have to quit the industry in shame, yet they have based an entire company and product around a fundamentally wrong measurement.

All anyone has to do it look at the curves
(http://www.eevblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/CoppertopAA-DischargeCapacityGraph-Line.png)

For there example of 1.1V product voltage dropout under load, there is only about 12% of energy wasted in the battery for a 100mA constant current load.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 01, 2015, 01:06:18 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 01, 2015, 12:12:23 am

For there example of 1.1V product voltage dropout under load, there is only about 12% of energy wasted in the battery for a 100mA constant current load.

Yup, open circuit voltage could be anything. Since their device can't be 100% efficient and they can't hope to get all of those remaining 12% there is no way to make this work in any meaningful way. It probably will reduce battery-life in most cases, if it's not a complete scam. :palm:

But I'm looking forward to be amazed! :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on July 01, 2015, 01:11:08 am

Just by their adverts they are trying too hard and it's gimmicky.

Advertisement style usually reflects if the product will stand by its own or not.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 01, 2015, 02:52:46 am

Quote from: apis on July 01, 2015, 01:06:18 am

But I'm looking forward to be amazed! :popcorn:

Yep, me too, always happy to admit I'm wrong, just show me the evidence.
Of course they will be able to find some products that are poorly designed with a high cutoff that might be wasting half the battery capacity, maybe even as much as 80% as they claim. But the demonstrably true fact that vast majority of products have cutout voltages of 1.1V or less means their device will get nowhere near their claims.
I'm completely baffled as to how they think they can hide or explain away this?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 01, 2015, 04:21:42 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 01, 2015, 02:52:46 am

I'm completely baffled as to how they think they can hide or explain away this?

Maybe it's to late to back down now, having invested so much into marketing already. I'm a bit cynical now perhaps but I think they are just stalling, maybe they will do some more waffling after a while. To someone who doesn't know electronics it will be their word against your, and some people believe what they want to believe.

---
I don't know what's wrong with people but there is some interesting psychology going on in when it comes to swindlers.

There was this big scam here in Sweden a few years ago. An Italian guy called Andrea Rossi managed to bamboozle two tenured physics professors and a journalist at the largest technology newspaper here in Sweden into believing he had invented a cold-fusion device (e-cat) that could solve all the worlds energy problems.  ::)

No-one was allowed to test it at first, and then finally only with the guys own test equipment. Didn't matter that other physicists pointed out that if it worked the way they suggested, everyone monitoring the test would die from radiation poisoning the day after... :-DD

After more than a year another journalist finally decided to do some real work and quickly discovered the guy was a well known criminal in Italy and had done a similar scam in the 80:s when he claimed he could convert toxic waste into oil. He made a ton of money by taking care of other companies waste products. In the end it turned out he had just been dumping it. :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on July 02, 2015, 10:40:36 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 01, 2015, 12:12:23 am

...
They actually did admit that they are measuring the open circuit voltage of the battery!  :-DD  :palm:
Wow, just wow.

Yes but PhD's, and Patents...
:-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 02, 2015, 11:08:28 am

I'm thinking the plan is to keep piling the bull high until somebody like a director at Walmart signs up for ten million of them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on July 02, 2015, 02:51:19 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 02, 2015, 11:08:28 am

I'm thinking the plan is to keep piling the bull high until somebody like a director at Walmart signs up for ten million of them.

Unfortunately for them, my local Google shows a page full of debunk....
There must be a name changing coming...

Quote from: cyborgar on hackaday: link=http://hackaday.com/2015/06/06/crowdfunding-follies-debunking-the-batteriser/

June 6, 2015 at 7:18 pm

Also another thing not noted here is that overdischarging batteries can cause them to leak because they corrode beyond their rated limits. Money saving and environmental friendliness ends when your device ends up ruined by leaked battery juice.

Anybody knows more about this?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 03, 2015, 06:17:31 am

Quote from: Galenbo on July 02, 2015, 02:51:19 pm

Anybody knows more about this?

I've hear that before but don't really know much more. Wikipedia  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_battery#Leaks)had this bit of information though:

Quote

The reason for leaks is that as batteries discharge — either through usage or gradual self-discharge — the chemistry of the cells changes and some hydrogen gas is generated. This out-gassing increases pressure in the battery. Eventually, the excess pressure either ruptures the insulating seals at the end of the battery, or the outer metal canister, or both.

If the batterizer is a small but otherwise ordinary boost converter it shouldn't be more of a problem than other devices with boost converters though.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 03, 2015, 06:26:00 am

Quote from: Galenbo on July 02, 2015, 02:51:19 pm

Quote from: cyborgar

Also another thing not noted here is that overdischarging batteries can cause them to leak because they corrode beyond their rated limits. Money saving and environmental friendliness ends when your device ends up ruined by leaked battery juice.

Anybody knows more about this?

You never know, the Batterizer might down at 1.05V or something like that...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: moemoe on July 09, 2015, 07:31:45 am

Quote from: Zeph on June 05, 2015, 08:45:38 am

There are a few issues you didn't mention.

As you have described, most devices will work down to 1.0-1.1v/cell. 

I just found out that my Sony universal remote control still works at 1.2V, but with miserable range. That's one point you didn't cover in your video, you only checked if there is still a signal, not but it's strength.

Normally, I can point the rc everywhere in the room and the devices still recieves the signal without any problems, at this voltage I had to point it directly onto the device I wanted to control.

But, as the Eneloops were in there fore probably more than two years, I doubt that the Batteriser would give any improvement, as the quiescent current would probably drain the battery much earlier. And, putting them in a charger every 2 years is not a big deal at all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 09:27:14 am

Quote from: moemoe on July 09, 2015, 07:31:45 am

But, as the Eneloops were in there fore probably more than two years, I doubt that the Batteriser would give any improvement, as the quiescent current would probably drain the battery much earlier.

Yep.

Quote from: moemoe on July 09, 2015, 07:31:45 am

And, putting them in a charger every 2 years is not a big deal at all.

Well there's your problem!

Rechargeable batteries have a much higher self-discharge rate then ordinary alkalines. Using rechargeable batteries in remote control units isn't usually cost-effective (unless you're getting them for free or something...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rs20 on July 09, 2015, 10:10:24 am

Quote from: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 09:27:14 am

Rechargeable batteries have a much higher self-discharge rate then ordinary alkalines. Using rechargeable batteries in remote control units isn't usually cost-effective (unless you're getting them for free or something...)

But the cost of recharging them is practically zero????

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 10:33:11 am

Quote from: rs20 on July 09, 2015, 10:10:24 am

Quote from: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 09:27:14 am

Rechargeable batteries have a much higher self-discharge rate then ordinary alkalines. Using rechargeable batteries in remote control units isn't usually cost-effective (unless you're getting them for free or something...)

But the cost of recharging them is practically zero????

But that's only one of the costs of using them

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on July 09, 2015, 10:43:15 am

Quote from: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 09:27:14 am

Quote from: moemoe on July 09, 2015, 07:31:45 am

And, putting them in a charger every 2 years is not a big deal at all.

Well there's your problem!

Rechargeable batteries have a much higher self-discharge rate then ordinary alkalines. Using rechargeable batteries in remote control units isn't usually cost-effective (unless you're getting them for free or something...)

The self discharge rate of "low self discharge" NiMH is not much worse than alkaline, eneloop can maintain a charge for 5 years.
How cost effective NiMH is can be discussed, one leaking alkaline and the NiMH might have been much cheaper.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rs20 on July 09, 2015, 12:12:41 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 10:33:11 am

But that's only one of the costs of using them

Yeah, thanks for listing the others. Stop being so difficult, troll.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 12:42:25 pm

Quote from: rs20 on July 09, 2015, 12:12:41 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 10:33:11 am

But that's only one of the costs of using them

Yeah, thanks for listing the others. Stop being so difficult, troll.

Ummmm... how hard can it be to think of 'costs' when you're buying things? (Hint: The clue is in the verb).

Duracell/Energizer AA - easily under $1  (under 50 cents if you buy boxes of them)
Duracell/Eneloop rechargeable AA - $3 each
Decent battery charger: $10-$20 ??

So they cost 4-5 times less, they last twice as long in 'standby' devices, eg. remote controls, and you don't have any start-up costs (charger).

So how much is a free recharge really worth?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rs20 on July 09, 2015, 01:00:08 pm

The savings are ostensibly/arguably environmental, and definitely convenience. I haven't had to buy a single battery for years, because I effectively have an infinite supply in my house, and I'm never eeking the last bit of charge out of a slightly dodgy remote. Especially true of my camera flash (granted, not the context that we're talking about but it illustrates my point well) -- I just charge my 4 eneloops before every trip. The fact that non-rechargeable would last twice as long is irrelevant because my rechargeables never run out. That ongoing convenience is easily worth the negligible initial outlay of $50 or so.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 01:12:41 pm

Quote from: rs20 on July 09, 2015, 01:00:08 pm

Especially true of my camera flash (granted, not the context that we're talking about but it illustrates my point well) -- I just charge my 4 eneloops before every trip.

No, it completely fails to illustrate the point.

Nobody's arguing that frequent-use items that use a lot of current are better off with rechargeable batteries. The point is that you'll be dead and buried long before 'practically zero' charging costs have recovered the cost of putting rechargeable batteries in something like a remote control.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 01:13:59 pm

Quote from: HKJ on July 09, 2015, 10:43:15 am

How cost effective NiMH is can be discussed, one leaking alkaline and the NiMH might have been much cheaper.

http://www.duracell.com/en-us/guarantee (http://www.duracell.com/en-us/guarantee)

http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/no-leaks-guarantee (http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/no-leaks-guarantee)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 09, 2015, 02:06:49 pm

So wasn't the Batteriser Indiegogo going to be end of June?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bob F. on July 09, 2015, 02:13:21 pm

Site now says: Pre-Sale Coming Soon.  Batterisers are not yet available for purchase at this time. Sign up below to be invited to our early pre-sale event.


I wonder what made them change their mind...   8)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 02:36:49 pm

Quote from: Bob F. on July 09, 2015, 02:13:21 pm

Site now says:

First line of site now says: "Most new batteries contain 1.5V of energy when first bought."


(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/556f852de4b02d3071c592f8/t/557c9f1ae4b097936a85500a/1434230554661/Frankie_Roohparvar.jpg?format=300w)
(The inventor)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 02:41:29 pm

They've got some new pics of it:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on July 09, 2015, 02:48:24 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 01:13:59 pm

Quote from: HKJ on July 09, 2015, 10:43:15 am

How cost effective NiMH is can be discussed, one leaking alkaline and the NiMH might have been much cheaper.

http://www.duracell.com/en-us/guarantee (http://www.duracell.com/en-us/guarantee)

http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/no-leaks-guarantee (http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/no-leaks-guarantee)

That guarantee does not prevent the batteries from leaking:

(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/cpf2/DSC_8572.jpg) (http://lygte-info.dk/pic/cpf2/DSC_8573.jpg)

You might sometimes, with some work, recover some of the cost from the battery manufacturer (If you use the right brand of batteries).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 03:10:13 pm

Quote from: HKJ on July 09, 2015, 02:48:24 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 01:13:59 pm

http://www.duracell.com/en-us/guarantee (http://www.duracell.com/en-us/guarantee)

http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/no-leaks-guarantee (http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/no-leaks-guarantee)

That guarantee does not prevent the batteries from leaking:

(picture of leaking batteries with very clear "made in China" markings removed)

Quote from: HKJ on July 09, 2015, 10:43:15 am

You might sometimes, with some work, recover some of the cost from the battery manufacturer

Some?

"Duracell guarantees its batteries against defects in materials and workmanship. Should any device be damaged due to a battery defect, we will repair or replace it at our option."

"Energizer will repair or replace, at our option, any device damaged by leakage from Energizer® MAX® AA/AAA Alkaline batteries"

Quote from: HKJ on July 09, 2015, 02:48:24 pm

(If you use the right brand of batteries).

You mean the brands I've been mentioning in this thread?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on July 09, 2015, 04:00:21 pm

Quote from: rs20 on July 09, 2015, 01:00:08 pm

The fact that non-rechargeable would last twice as long is irrelevant because my rechargeables never run out.

Where do you get NiMH cells with infinite life?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on July 09, 2015, 04:11:56 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 03:10:13 pm

(picture of leaking batteries with very clear "made in China" markings removed)

Duracell do also make batteries in China, but I am not aware I have removed any marking.

Quote from: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 03:10:13 pm

Some?

"Duracell guarantees its batteries against defects in materials and workmanship. Should any device be damaged due to a battery defect, we will repair or replace it at our option."

"Energizer will repair or replace, at our option, any device damaged by leakage from Energizer® MAX® AA/AAA Alkaline batteries"

You mean the brands I've been mentioning in this thread?

Yes, they do have that guarantee in some countries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: moemoe on July 10, 2015, 07:47:59 am

Quote from: Fungus on July 09, 2015, 12:42:25 pm

Ummmm... how hard can it be to think of 'costs' when you're buying things? (Hint: The clue is in the verb).

Duracell/Energizer AA - easily under $1  (under 50 cents if you buy boxes of them)
Duracell/Eneloop rechargeable AA - $3 each
Decent battery charger: $10-$20 ??

So they cost 4-5 times less, they last twice as long in 'standby' devices, eg. remote controls, and you don't have any start-up costs (charger).

So how much is a free recharge really worth?

I payed 2€ per Eneloop AA,
and 0,34€ per Duracell AA,
the charger was already available (and that's why I don't calculate these costs, the question should be "what do _I_ have to pay extra in _my_ setup")

So yes, you could argue that (charging no cost for the charger) I could use 6 duracells instead of one Eneloop.

But that would also imply 6 times more waste for the same level of comfort, and in this case, I prefer to pay some € more for the environment's sake.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 10, 2015, 09:56:51 am

Quote from: moemoe on July 10, 2015, 07:47:59 am

But that would also imply 6 times more waste for the same level of comfort, and in this case, I prefer to pay some € more for the environment's sake.

Sure, but the argument was:

Quote

Quote from: fungus

Using rechargeable batteries in remote control units isn't usually cost-effective

"the cost of recharging them is practically zero"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: moemoe on July 10, 2015, 01:41:57 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 10, 2015, 09:56:51 am

Quote from: moemoe on July 10, 2015, 07:47:59 am

But that would also imply 6 times more waste for the same level of comfort, and in this case, I prefer to pay some € more for the environment's sake.

Sure, but the argument was:

Quote

Quote from: fungus

Using rechargeable batteries in remote control units isn't usually cost-effective

"the cost of recharging them is practically zero"

Which is still true, if you already have a charger.

Or, if you want, I think I payed about 30€ for mine, and use it for at least 5 years now. With about 50 charges per year, that's 12ct per charging, reducing with every charge. I'd call that "practically zero."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 10, 2015, 02:03:00 pm

Quote from: moemoe on July 10, 2015, 01:41:57 pm

Quote

"the cost of recharging them is practically zero"

Which is still true, if you already have a charger.

And if you already have the batteries.

If you don't, then.... it isn't true! Tada!

Math. It works, bitches!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: moemoe on July 10, 2015, 08:23:08 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 10, 2015, 02:03:00 pm

And if you already have the batteries.

If you don't, then.... it isn't true! Tada!

Math. It works, bitches!

It's still true, only the break even point moves slower. I'm sure you can do the calculations with 2€+n*0,14€ against n*0,34€, where n is the number of charges, for yourself.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on July 10, 2015, 09:26:46 pm

Say you buy 10 Eneloop that you recharge.

Then it probably should be 30€+10*2€+n*0,14€ vs n*0,34€.

So: 50 + n*0.14 = n*0.34 => 50 = n*(0.34-0.14) => n = 50/0.2 or 250 charge cycles to break even.

Less if you purchase less Eneloops.

Even without taking into account the cost of recycling those 250 batteries which should be included in the price of the batteries to begin with.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 11, 2015, 09:20:35 am

Quote from: moemoe on July 10, 2015, 08:23:08 pm

It's still true, only the break even point moves slower. I'm sure you can do the calculations with 2€+n*0,14€ against n*0,34€, where n is the number of charges, for yourself.

Sure, let's see...

I calculate that I'll be dead long before before I break even with a remote control.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: moemoe on July 11, 2015, 01:34:26 pm

And you buy a new charger for every rechargable batteryi your calculation. You're always seeing that use case isolated.

2€+n*0,14€ against n*0,34€ => n=10 in my scenario with all the other batteries also using the charger (as I said, about 50 charges per year), summing up to 34ct per charge including the charger.

That's still 20 years for the RC batteries, but I hope you won't die that quick.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 12, 2015, 11:25:15 am

Quote from: moemoe on July 11, 2015, 01:34:26 pm

That's still 20 years for the RC batteries, but I hope you won't die that quick.

My RC batteries last a lot longer than 2 years.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 06:58:17 am

Words fail me at the pointlessness of this video  :palm:
This is supposed to be their big comeback to me using a power supply to test battery cutoff in a product!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv5eHRnjGC8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv5eHRnjGC8)

OMG, how cluelesss are these people?  :palm:  |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 07:06:32 am

and then they followed up with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBH0PaqMBk8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBH0PaqMBk8)


 :-DD  |O  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on July 25, 2015, 07:17:37 am

They should have added their product to those empty batteries that run instantaneously below the 0.9V when activated in the test and then....... oh no the monkey still does not operate even with their magic smoke product FAIL  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on July 25, 2015, 07:55:15 am

Quote

OMG, how cluelesss are these people?

I don't think they are clueless.
I think they do this on purpose to rescue their product.
If they are good enough to build a boost circuit that small, thei knew what they are doing.
They only want to sell their product at high price to people which are not that good at electronic.

This is the new way of selling "snakeoil".

By the way.
Does the scinentist guy knew what they are doing with his statement about batteries?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 07:58:08 am

Quote from: Barny on July 25, 2015, 07:55:15 am

Quote

OMG, how cluelesss are these people?

I don't think they are clueless.
I think they do this on purpose to rescue their product.
If they are good enough to build a boost circuit that small, thei knew what they are doing.
They only want to sell their product at high price to people which are not that good at electronic.

Yep, agreed, it must be that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on July 25, 2015, 08:03:45 am

Quote from: Barny on July 25, 2015, 07:55:15 am

By the way.
Does the scinentist guy knew what they are doing with his statement about batteries?

Probably yes:
The whole bench looks like a movie setup: The scope is running with the probe connected to the probe adjust test signal output. And the remaining space is filled with random tools and other stuff.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on July 25, 2015, 08:07:28 am

Quote from: Barny on July 25, 2015, 07:55:15 am

I don't think they are clueless.

Well, you never know. Look at the equipment. Never underestimate human stupidity.
Is this guy in the ugly shirt supposed to be one of the developers? If so, I could really imagine that he didn't quite get the problem with this open load voltage comparison.
Besides, the statement from the 1st vid is like "batteries are different - just believe us". The one one from the 2nd video is like "batteries are different - and there are very complex technical reasons for this (that we just googled without understanding the real issue)".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: baoshi on July 25, 2015, 08:12:37 am

In a typical convince-confuse-con theorem, now they reach confuse stage

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BravoV on July 25, 2015, 08:24:08 am

Adding the "risk" when using alkaline battery which I think worth considering, especially in an expensive T&M instruments.

This photo was taken at Oct 2013, watch the expiry date at the cell. They were the standard batteries came with Fluke 287, and was installed in the meter (Fluke distributor's showroom) when I bought it for cheaper price as its a show unit. The meter was showing full bar at the battery indicator when they're installed, and also I did a brief "loaded" test and they were still fresh.  >:(

Just a reminder as well, remember to check your T&M instruments periodically if you are still using alkaline cells. Currently I'm a fanatic Eneloop user, and there are no alkaline cells allowed in my house, period.  >:(

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/how-much-are-you-willing-to-pay-for-a-fluke-287/?action=dlattach;attach=64864;image)


The damages at the meter's battery contacts  :palm:

I'm aware of Energizer warranty claim, its just not worth it for such expensive instruments, besides in my place, the damage claim could ended up for months in their bureaucracy , and there is no guarantee that they will replace or fix the device damaged by their battery.  :palm:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/how-much-are-you-willing-to-pay-for-a-fluke-287/?action=dlattach;attach=64866;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on July 25, 2015, 08:41:55 am

I dont quite understand who the target audience is in regards to the toy monkey clips.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 08:55:38 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on July 25, 2015, 08:41:55 am

I dont quite understand who the target audience is in regards to the toy monkey clips.

It's something they can post on their Facebook page to all the plebs to make them sound like they know what they are talking about when somebody links in my video.
Obviously it's a direct response to my video, and of course they can't answer any of the criticism, so they have to invoke this deception (which is technically correct without any context) that batteries and and power supplies aren't the same thing, therefore my entire video, blog post, and all my evidence is wrong  ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2015, 09:38:16 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 06:58:17 am

OMG, how cluelesss are these people?  :palm:  |O

I love their expert's "workbench". Totally clean and littered with tools what are obviously fresh out of the packet and unused.

And that soldering iron?  Obviously for EE work...  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2015, 09:49:53 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 07:06:32 am

and then they followed up with this:

 :-DD  |O  :palm:

I wanna know why they didn't put the batterizer in the monkey and show us how well it works!

Must have just been an innocent omission on their part, right?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 09:55:13 am

Quote from: Fungus on July 25, 2015, 09:38:16 am

I love their experts's "workbench". Totally clean and littered with tools what are obviously fresh out of the packet and unused.

Anyone who can identify the "professor" in the video wins the Internet!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on July 25, 2015, 09:59:27 am

Quote from: Fungus on July 25, 2015, 09:38:16 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 06:58:17 am

OMG, how cluelesss are these people?  :palm:  |O

I love their experts's "workbench". Totally clean and littered with tools what are obviously fresh out of the packet and unused.

Look at that scope, it's hooked up to the test signal. That's probably the worst probe compensation I've ever seen.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on July 25, 2015, 10:03:31 am

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on July 25, 2015, 09:59:27 am

Look at that scope, it's hooked up to the test signal. That's probably the worst probe compensation I've ever seen.

It is the obvious tell sell expert camouflage surrounding like the doctors always dress in white and a skeleton against the wall, what doctor still has a skeleton in his office besides an ex patient that he forgot about in the waiting room.
I had expected the real nerd type with pencils in his shirt to explain this, bit of a bummer there was no actor that could do this besides this guy who really is a good casting for this monkey part  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: electr_peter on July 25, 2015, 10:18:05 am

Completely fake instrument setup (too much clutter, unused new tools in random places, all instruments are faced to camera (why?)) - all points to deliberate fake video scene setup.

They made a strange video showing that battery is not equal to power supply (keeping in mind that is obvious to any engineer and is irrelevant to the point ...). Why? To confuse not technically literate people and indirectly say that all criticism is false. Demagogy at it's best.

Dave, do not waste time debunking this BS. Just link in few links/videos from publicly available videos from test equipment manufacturers advertising their power supplies/battery emulator solutions. For example, http://www.keithley.com/products/dcac/highspeedpower/battery (http://www.keithley.com/products/dcac/highspeedpower/battery) or http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1000000819%3Aepsg%3Apro-pn-66319D/dual-mobile-comm-dc-source-battery-emulation-dvm?cc=LT&lc=eng (http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1000000819%3Aepsg%3Apro-pn-66319D/dual-mobile-comm-dc-source-battery-emulation-dvm?cc=LT&lc=eng)

I think they know exactly what they are doing (they know that Dave's arguments are right, that their claims are BS, that they are deliberately providing borderline wrong or confusing information). I would clasify it as a deliberate scam. Let's wait and see what happens :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2015, 10:28:25 am

Quote from: electr_peter on July 25, 2015, 10:18:05 am

Dave, do not waste time debunking this BS.

No, please do!   :popcorn:

(You'll need one of those monkeys, maybe somebody can find where they sell them and post a link.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on July 25, 2015, 10:34:03 am

Quote from: Fungus on July 25, 2015, 10:28:25 am

Quote from: electr_peter on July 25, 2015, 10:18:05 am

Dave, do not waste time debunking this BS.

No, please do!   :popcorn:

(You'll need one of those monkeys, maybe somebody can find where they sell them and post a link.)

"Magic Monkey Plays Cymbals Retro Battery Operated"
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Magic-Monkey-Plays-Cymbals-Retro-Battery-Operated-/221824158248?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33a5c00a28 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Magic-Monkey-Plays-Cymbals-Retro-Battery-Operated-/221824158248?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33a5c00a28)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mackrc1 on July 25, 2015, 10:40:10 am

I love how their oscilloscope is just sitting in the background with a test pattern. "Look at us we have fancy equipment, therefor we are not pulling shite out our arse"  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 25, 2015, 10:43:23 am

I'm convinced they know what they are doing too, it's textbook scamming. They need to respond to criticism somehow and if facts don't work, nonsense is almost as effective. Most people can't follow the technical arguments anyway so it comes down to which authority you trust most and people usually believe in the guy with a suit... This video was so bad I hope most people will see through it though.

Quote from: Kjelt on July 25, 2015, 07:17:37 am

They should have added their product to those empty batteries that run instantaneously below the 0.9V when activated in the test and then....... oh no the monkey still does not operate even with their magic smoke product FAIL  :palm:

+1

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 10:46:41 am

Quote from: electr_peter on July 25, 2015, 10:18:05 am

Dave, do not waste time debunking this BS.

I don't know whether to throughly destory this video, or just not give them the air time any more?  :-//
Their Indiegogo Starts in two days time, and I suspect will succeed regardless of what I or anyone else who is talking out about this says.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on July 25, 2015, 10:52:01 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 10:46:41 am

I don't know whether to throughly destory this video

You know you want to...  >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2015, 11:02:19 am

Quote from: Howardlong on July 25, 2015, 10:52:01 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 10:46:41 am

I don't know whether to throughly destory this video

You know you want to...  >:D

All you need is two flat batteries, a voltage booster module, and one of those monkeys.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 11:03:41 am

Quote from: apis on July 25, 2015, 10:43:23 am

They need to respond to criticism somehow and if facts don't work, nonsense is almost as effective. Most people can't follow the technical arguments anyway so it comes down to which authority you trust most and people usually believe in the guy with a suit...

They showed their hand in a classic case of this by looking at my Linkedin profile & comparing their PhD's, which because they are more qualified, of course makes them right ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on July 25, 2015, 11:06:24 am

We could start a whole new society with Dave as president.

The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Batteries....RSPCB or RSPCBOM for battery operated monkeys, I felt that poor toys pain.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 25, 2015, 11:23:31 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 11:03:41 am

They showed their hand in a classic case of this by looking at my Linkedin profile & comparing their PhD's, which because they are more qualified, of course makes them right ::)

They deserve a PhD in con-artistry at least!

They must know what they are doing, they already have prototype devices and it would be obvious when they test them that they don't work. And if they actually have real PhD's in electrical engineering and have been able to develop these tiny converters there is no way they don't understand Ohm's law at least.

At the same time they have spent all this money on a slick website, all those actors, video-production, marketing... I don't know what it cost to get your product pushed in all those magazines as if they were legit, but it can't be cheap.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on July 25, 2015, 11:33:19 am

Isn't knowingly false promiseing and selling a potentiell dangerous product (lets be a little bit keen) a little bit illegal?

What does Duracel say that teire design get used in a fraud?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 11:38:25 am

Quote from: apis on July 25, 2015, 11:23:31 am

They must know what they are doing, they already have prototype devices and it would be obvious when they test them that they don't work. And if they actually have real PhD's in electrical engineering and have been able to develop these tiny converters there is no way they don't understand Ohm's law at least.

Yes, they must know this.
One has a Ph.D in EE from Iowa State University, and Vice President and General Manager at Broadcom, and a professor at California State University.
The other has an MS EE from Santa Clara University
Yet they can't even get the basics right?
You never, ever, measure the unloaded battery voltage and use that to claim anything, let alone product cutoff voltages, remaining energy capacity, and to base patents and an entire business around it. Yet they have admitted this is the entire basis of their product. It's a crazily embarrassing mistake if genuine.
If I claimed that I'd be laughed out of the industry.
If you did that at design job you'd be sacked for being clueless.
If you said that at a design job interview, you'd be shown the door.
It's stuff even hobbyists know - measuring the battery voltage under load is the only thing that counts!

Quote

At the same time they have spent all this money on a slick website, all those actors

The other thing is that flat out claim that those promo videos are submitted entries from "fans".

Also, a month ago they claimed they release data proving that it works as well as claimed, and that it was their "top priority" to do so.
Now the Indiegogo is 2 days away and still nothing. Not a single bit of data after working on this for 5 years!  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on July 25, 2015, 11:50:33 am

Quote from: wilfred on July 25, 2015, 11:40:19 am

C'mon Dave. Just give us the facts. Why did the monkey work down to a much lower voltage with a power supply than it did with batteries? Is their claim wrong? Does the internal resistance of the battery have no bearing?

The internal resistance in the battery is the problem. You may measure a high voltage on the battery when unloaded, but put a load on and it drops to nearly nothing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on July 25, 2015, 11:51:35 am

Please do more videos destroying this bullshit! This tech scamming won't go away if people ignore it. T   

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on July 25, 2015, 11:55:39 am

Observe how they never measured the voltage across the batteries in the toy when it was on...

Quote from: Howardlong on July 25, 2015, 10:52:01 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 10:46:41 am

I don't know whether to throughly destory this video

You know you want to...  >:D

Do it Dave! :popcorn:


I don't have a YouTube account but please be sure to downvote and link to Dave's debunking video on their other videos too, like these ones (not going to link them directly because I don't want to embed them here):

Code: [Select]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4zjWynjEo
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-5RLfvy8XI[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkfdm8soHyU[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP2kuEzySP8[/url]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4_XvJaQO34[/url]
Look at the comments on that last one... clearly not right.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 25, 2015, 12:04:47 pm

Quote from: Barny on July 25, 2015, 11:33:19 am

Isn't knowingly false promiseing and selling a potentiell dangerous product (lets be a little bit keen) a little bit illegal?

What does Duracel say that teire design get used in a fraud?

The fact that it is crowd sourced probably complicates the legal situation... might even be legal because no-one thought about sites like indiegogo when the law was written. Considering all the effort they have put into this wouldn't surprise me if they have gotten thumbs up from their lawyers. They also use lots of weasel words, avoiding statements that are provably false and so on... like this last video, it's obviously true that batteries and power supplies are different but that's a straw man, no-one claimed they weren't.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 12:05:58 pm

Quote from: wilfred on July 25, 2015, 11:40:19 am

C'mon Dave. Just give us the facts. Why did the monkey work down to a much lower voltage with a power supply than it did with batteries? Is their claim wrong? Does the internal resistance of the battery have no bearing?

That's a rhetorical question right?

It's the ESR of the battery, and they are incorrectly measuring the open circuit voltage. Of course that's the whole point of their argument, which is of course completely and utterly the wrong way to measure a product cutout voltage.

Quote

Getting a mob of your fans stirred up is not the way to respond. Play a straight bat.

How was my video or blog post not playing with a straight bat?
If you are referring to comments here, then this is just forum chat.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2015, 12:28:16 pm

Quote from: wilfred on July 25, 2015, 11:40:19 am

C'mon Dave. Just give us the facts. Why did the monkey work down to a much lower voltage with a power supply than it did with batteries? Is their claim wrong? Does the internal resistance of the battery have no bearing?

You basically just said you don't understand Ohm's law...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 01:10:47 pm

Comments on their videos stink to high heaven. Take this new one testing against a flashlight (fair enough test, that's why most LED flashlights have boost converters built in):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-5RLfvy8XI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-5RLfvy8XI)

Check out this commenter called SagorRoy:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162604;image)

Joined start of July, clearly a recently generated sock puppet account. Check out all the other random comments made by this account.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162606;image)

Pathetic, really pathetic  :--

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162608;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 01:35:16 pm

Quote from: wilfred on July 25, 2015, 01:31:07 pm

No. You basically didn't comprehend that I think the best strategy Dave can use to counter the claims these people make is to play a straight bat and fend off the claims they make without additional comment.

Once again, I think I played with a fairly straight bat in my video and my follow-up blog post. I in fact cut them plenty of slack, and didn't call anyone who believed it stupid or any such thing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 25, 2015, 01:54:37 pm

I'm thinking of applying to be an authorized Batterizer distributor.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on July 25, 2015, 05:09:08 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on July 25, 2015, 08:41:55 am

I dont quite understand who the target audience is in regards to the toy monkey clips.

You can be sure they understand that aspect very well.

The video is very well made, I mean, expensive camera, professional setup, they bought tools with the right color, actors etc.
Their whole campaign already cost more than a new car, and I assure you these guys will make a lot of money with it.

I dislike this type of scam very much, but if I look at the world around me, there's worse everywhere.
Health products, religion, greenwashery,...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on July 25, 2015, 05:21:21 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 10:46:41 am

I don't know whether to throughly destory this video, or just not give them the air time any more?  :-//

I wouldn't put new energy in their new video, all the people with some ohm's law knowledge already know what's going on.
To the others, you (we) sound like a religious demagoge or a consperacist, someone with a hidden agenda.

If I would react, I would resolutely stick to my own initial claims.
-they did not give a list of products that stop working below 1.2V
-they gave no list with devices that already have a boost converter.
-they mix all kind of tech/science units, go to basic school
-they don't understand percentages.
-there is no linearity between rest voltage and rest energy.
-the product has max xx% rendability, what will result in a lower autonomy
-they refuse to give numbers when speaking about longer, more, better,...
-...

None of this is corrected in their video2
Don't get guided by them or their agenda.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on July 25, 2015, 07:37:16 pm

And now every critism below the video got deleted.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on July 25, 2015, 08:06:32 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 01:10:47 pm

...
Check out this commenter called SagorRoy:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162604;image)

Joined start of July, clearly a recently generated sock puppet account. Check out all the other random comments made by this account.

...

He offers this service on twitter (https://twitter.com/RoySagor/status/611095478059597824):

Quote

i will Manually submit your website or blog or video links to 30+  Social Bookmarking Site. Services

His comments on the video are in line with that service.

https://www.fiverr.com/smartit69/create-30-high-quality-social-bookmarking-backlinks-from-pr10-to-6 (https://www.fiverr.com/smartit69/create-30-high-quality-social-bookmarking-backlinks-from-pr10-to-6)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: electr_peter on July 25, 2015, 09:12:32 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 10:46:41 am

Quote from: electr_peter on July 25, 2015, 10:18:05 am

Dave, do not waste time debunking this BS.

I don't know whether to throughly destory this video, or just not give them the air time any more?  :-//
Their Indiegogo Starts in two days time, and I suspect will succeed regardless of what I or anyone else who is talking out about this says.

Do whatever you feel like is best.
My point of view is that you cannot really do anything at this point about Bateriser because their are doing PR campaign with clear demagogy tactics and they do not care about technical arguments. They are "right" no matter what (until company folds). Thus, I would consider further debunking ineffective and unnecessary.

Not that there is some substance left to debunk - Bateriser did not ship anything yet (which they most likely would do) and did not provide any real data (which they won't do with 99.99% certainty). Expect some more vague misleading terms and claims, but not anything testable.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dmmt40 on July 25, 2015, 10:03:36 pm

What's happening here is very simple, people behind this are just greedy.

In all fairness they do have a product that a lot of people would buy, but instead of being upfront with the benefits and limitations they decide to ignore facts, generalise scenarios, etc, the bubble is just getting bigger and bigger.

But this is what happens when lots of people get involved developing (and marketing) products like this, since no single person is directly responsible they'll just carry on until it bursts.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 10:52:27 pm

Quote from: jancumps on July 25, 2015, 08:06:32 pm

He offers this service on twitter (https://twitter.com/RoySagor/status/611095478059597824):

Quote

i will Manually submit your website or blog or video links to 30+  Social Bookmarking Site. Services

His comments on the video are in line with that service.
https://www.fiverr.com/smartit69/create-30-high-quality-social-bookmarking-backlinks-from-pr10-to-6 (https://www.fiverr.com/smartit69/create-30-high-quality-social-bookmarking-backlinks-from-pr10-to-6)

Nice find.
This Batteriser mob are simply pathetic.
Wouldn't surprise me if they bought the video views as well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mackrc1 on July 25, 2015, 11:25:03 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 01:10:47 pm

Comments on their videos stink to high heaven. Take this new one testing against a flashlight (fair enough test, that's why most LED flashlights have boost converters built in):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-5RLfvy8XI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-5RLfvy8XI)

Check out this commenter called SagorRoy:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162604;image)

Joined start of July, clearly a recently generated sock puppet account. Check out all the other random comments made by this account.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162606;image)

Pathetic, really pathetic  :--

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162608;image)

Talk shite, seriously?!
I did try to stay off the hate waggon but look at it! It's a piece of folded copper!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on July 26, 2015, 03:32:37 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 10:46:41 am

Quote from: electr_peter on July 25, 2015, 10:18:05 am

Dave, do not waste time debunking this BS.

I don't know whether to throughly destory this video, or just not give them the air time any more?

Give it up. You're no match for a guy who stuffs probes up a toy monkey's butt.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: free_electron on July 26, 2015, 04:36:17 am

PHD . Person Hopelesly Deficient...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on July 26, 2015, 04:44:33 am

Quote from: free_electron on July 26, 2015, 04:36:17 am

PHD . Person Hopelesly Deficient...

:--
Hey, we have honest PhDs amongst us. Not me btw.

Edit: to clarify, not me on the PhD part, not on the honest part ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on July 26, 2015, 04:32:35 pm

When it will be made available?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on July 26, 2015, 09:27:49 pm

I believe a pre-sale starts July 27.

edit: actually that's today!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 07:46:00 am

OMG!
Batteriser have finally admitted they were wrong and used the wrong voltage measurement to characterise their product!
They have changed the wording on their website completely to finally mention battery voltage under load, with a caveat that that related to 1.3V open circuit  :-DD
But they still cling to their stupid 80% unused energy claim, and even use it in the same headline implying that an under load dropout voltage of now 1.1V still translates to 80% unused energy.
Oops, how embarrassing!  :-DD  :palm:
The silly thing is their claim is now even more demonstrably untrue!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162891;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on July 27, 2015, 08:55:39 am

The old statement.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/?action=dlattach;attach=162907;image)

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 09:42:49 am

Quote from: firewalker on July 27, 2015, 08:55:39 am

The old statement.

Luckily we captured all their old claims for posterity.
No way they would have changed their tune without the community showing they were completely wrong.
Only problem is they are still completely wrong about lost capacity now admitting a typical 1.1V cutout voltage. For anyone who cares to look at a battery datasheet, there is now zero chance of this product being anything close to the x8 / 800% / 80% lost claim, no if's, no buts, no secret sauce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on July 27, 2015, 10:03:10 am

Bugger.. :palm:
I was looking forward to the 2032 version, now it seems I wont be around... :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 10:15:00 am

They have also changed their promo video.
It used to say
"did you know all the batteries you've ever used have only used up to 20% of their battery life."
Not it's
"Did you know that a significant number of dead batteries you throw away had only used roughly 20% of their battery life"
 :-DD

So they have gone from absolute certain fact of all batteries, to a "significant number"  :palm:

But of course they had to change this to stop any potential class action law suit from any Indiegogo backers or other customers who find them useless or don't get anywhere near the claimed capacity.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on July 27, 2015, 10:22:23 am

We must find the old video...

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 10:29:43 am

Quote from: firewalker on July 27, 2015, 10:22:23 am

We must find the old video...

It's embedded in my debunking video at the end.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 10:58:14 am

For the record, screen captures of their absurd and embarrassing straw man claim about my using a PSU to determine the product cutout voltage:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162927;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162929;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 27, 2015, 11:17:16 am

Quote from: jancumps on July 25, 2015, 08:06:32 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 25, 2015, 01:10:47 pm

...
Check out this commenter called SagorRoy:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162604;image)

Joined start of July, clearly a recently generated sock puppet account. Check out all the other random comments made by this account.

...

He offers this service on twitter (https://twitter.com/RoySagor/status/611095478059597824):

Quote

i will Manually submit your website or blog or video links to 30+  Social Bookmarking Site. Services

His comments on the video are in line with that service.

https://www.fiverr.com/smartit69/create-30-high-quality-social-bookmarking-backlinks-from-pr10-to-6 (https://www.fiverr.com/smartit69/create-30-high-quality-social-bookmarking-backlinks-from-pr10-to-6)

:-DD :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on July 27, 2015, 11:33:17 am

Quote

"Most new batteries contain 1.5V of energy when first bought"

Are you sure these guys have an EE degree? :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: coppice on July 27, 2015, 11:40:31 am

I think I might have a use for these things. There are a number of devices which refuse to run from a hydride cell, because they cut out at 1.4V or so. This gadget might boost the rechargeable cell's voltage until it becomes usable. :-\ I still can't see even the slimmest of structures fitting in most battery holders, though.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 27, 2015, 11:53:23 am

Quote from: coppice on July 27, 2015, 11:40:31 am

I think I might have a use for these things. There are a number of devices which refuse to run from a hydride cell, because they cut out at 1.4V or so.

Sure, there's one or two devices where this could be useful.

But ... they're only a tiny percentage of devices. Care to name yours?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on July 27, 2015, 12:03:50 pm

I’m hoping they have the courtesy to send Dave some free Batteriser samples to review, after all the help/information he’s been providing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 12:08:47 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on July 27, 2015, 11:33:17 am

Quote

"Most new batteries contain 1.5V of energy when first bought"

Are you sure these guys have an EE degree? :palm:

A PhD and Masters. And the PhD guy is/was a professor  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 12:10:11 pm

Quote from: dcac on July 27, 2015, 12:03:50 pm

I’m hoping they have the courtesy to send Dave some free Batteriser samples to review, after all the help/information he’s been providing.

They are more than welcome to, but I suspect they'd prefer I just go away and STFU.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on July 27, 2015, 12:21:50 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 12:08:47 pm

A PhD and Masters. And the PhD guy is/was a professor  :palm:

I just did a patentsearch on the guy, he claims to have more than 500 US patents, I thought that was rediculous, but he does, 505 to be exact.
All from a nand flash company called Micron, and a lot of them almost the same (must be otherwise you can not get that many patents) and probably a lot as side kick.
I really wonder why someone like that gets involved with this kind of shady business and claims.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 12:28:01 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on July 27, 2015, 12:21:50 pm

I just did a patentsearch on the guy, he claims to have more than 500 US patents, and he does, 505 to be exact.
All from a nand flash company Micron, and a lot almost the same.

That's common. One idea and patent 500 ways to implement it. Big companies like that have in-house patent departments that do just this.
I've heard it's one of the least desirable patent attoney roles, because it's more boring than watching paint dry.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 12:43:27 pm

And the Indiegogo is live:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)

Flexible Funding of course, the choice of champions  ;D

And of course they are so scared of my debunking they had to put their ridiculous straw-man video right up on the campaign page!  ::)

Only $30K. They are smart, they will easily make that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 27, 2015, 12:49:11 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 12:43:27 pm

And the Indiegogo is live:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)

They've got a 'comments' section...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on July 27, 2015, 01:05:17 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 12:10:11 pm

Quote from: dcac on July 27, 2015, 12:03:50 pm

I’m hoping they have the courtesy to send Dave some free Batteriser samples to review, after all the help/information he’s been providing.

They are more than welcome to, but I suspect they'd prefer I just go away and STFU.

Yeah perhaps, but considering the backing and funding this product seems to have, their overstatements maybe is deliberate to test the market responses (so to speak), on the line with "any publicity" is "good publicity"... (not at all a behaviour I agree with).

It's puzzling anyway... are they really just the 'clowns' they sometime seems to be(?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on July 27, 2015, 01:06:39 pm

mark my words, this is going to be a tell sell product, just next to the shrinkable garden hose but that one actually works  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on July 27, 2015, 01:13:51 pm

5 guys with mega qualifications, probable substantial revenue streams and lines of credit, looking for a paltry 30,000$ investment on the internet to subsidize their project. That doesn't make much sense, unless the whole thing is baloney.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 27, 2015, 01:18:28 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on July 27, 2015, 01:13:51 pm

5 guys with mega qualifications, probable substantial revenue streams and lines of credit, looking for a paltry 30,000$ investment on the internet to subsidize their project. That doesn't make much sense, unless the whole thing is baloney.

Making those pretty prototypes must have cost them that much.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on July 27, 2015, 01:22:48 pm

Because of Capitals Control I can't contribute and comment...

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 01:31:23 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 27, 2015, 01:18:28 pm

Making those pretty prototypes must have cost them that much.

They have a fair bit of funding, no doubt. That is why they can set the target low.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on July 27, 2015, 01:35:13 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 27, 2015, 12:49:11 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 12:43:27 pm

And the Indiegogo is live:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)

They've got a 'comments' section...

It also has an "As Seen On: " section. But they forgot to mention that it's covered on the EEVblog.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 01:36:06 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on July 27, 2015, 01:13:51 pm

5 guys with mega qualifications, probable substantial revenue streams and lines of credit, looking for a paltry 30,000$ investment on the internet to subsidize their project. That doesn't make much sense, unless the whole thing is baloney.

It's so they can use the Indiegogo as proof of market to major venture capitalists. Doesn't matter the amount, campaign success means campaign success.
The goal is most likely to flip the company for a profit at the first opportunity.
But I'm stunned that they have spend 5 years developing this, obviously have money behind them, a big name investor on their board already, have obviously spent tons of money on clever highly polished marketing and vidoes, and they chose Indiegogo Flexible Funding instead of Kickstarter?  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 01:39:19 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 27, 2015, 12:49:11 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 12:43:27 pm

And the Indiegogo is live:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)

They've got a 'comments' section...

Betcha anytign they will heavily censor any criticism on there.
I have a new video coming out tomorrow that is totally related, doesn't directly address their silly Monkey video though, that is best left to another video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on July 27, 2015, 01:41:49 pm

They are allowed from IGG to select and remove comments?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on July 27, 2015, 01:42:10 pm

Funny, there's 2 comments made on Indiegogo now (none by me)

One is calmly asking for more technical data.

The other is worshipping the product like the new messiah.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 27, 2015, 01:42:18 pm

I wonder if the people who wrote fluff articles based on the batteriser press release are happy that their names are now being used to endorse the product?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 01:49:19 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 27, 2015, 01:42:18 pm

I wonder if the people who wrote fluff articles based on the batteriser press release are happy that their names are now being used to endorse the product?

That's all part of the game, they don't care.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on July 27, 2015, 02:02:03 pm

A Google for "batteriser" currently has this for me as the 3rd result:

http://hackaday.com/2015/06/06/crowdfunding-follies-debunking-the-batteriser/ (http://hackaday.com/2015/06/06/crowdfunding-follies-debunking-the-batteriser/)

Dave's #751 video is also on the first page.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: coppice on July 27, 2015, 02:06:09 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 27, 2015, 11:53:23 am

Quote from: coppice on July 27, 2015, 11:40:31 am

I think I might have a use for these things. There are a number of devices which refuse to run from a hydride cell, because they cut out at 1.4V or so.

Sure, there's one or two devices where this could be useful.

But ... they're only a tiny percentage of devices. Care to name yours?

I generally like Olympus products, but they've produced a few things that's wouldn't run from NiMH cells. They are certainly not alone.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 02:07:51 pm

Quote from: amyk on July 27, 2015, 02:02:03 pm

A Google for "batteriser" currently has this for me as the 3rd result:
http://hackaday.com/2015/06/06/crowdfunding-follies-debunking-the-batteriser/ (http://hacaday.com/2015/06/06/crowdfunding-follies-debunking-the-batteriser/)
Dave's #751 video is also on the first page.

I'm at #4 for me.
5 of the top 10 results are debunking, including the NeuroLogica blog.
 :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on July 27, 2015, 02:53:01 pm

Dave, what if we used batterisers on the storage batteries of a solar road?? All our power problems would be solved!!!  :-DD

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on July 27, 2015, 03:12:04 pm

I'll say this: these Batteriser guys are true EEVBlog fans. They even read the post about the battery shorting through the sleeve - so they coated their sheet metal.

I am impressed at the price point they're able to achieve. Being an insider at Flextronics has its benefits.

These would actually have been nice 30 years ago in they pre-ubiquitous-boost-converter heydays of TTL logic. Aside from uber cheap toys, it's hard to see the point today.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on July 27, 2015, 05:02:56 pm

PHD - Piled Higher and Deeper.

Funny enough, this applies to them rather well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS9olPA2BK0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS9olPA2BK0)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Zbig on July 27, 2015, 05:30:30 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 10:58:14 am

For the record, screen captures of their absurd and embarrassing straw man claim about my using a PSU to determine the product cutout voltage:

[..]

After reading this they almost made me believe they actually do not comprehend that ESR is just a vehicle used to measure and describe the depleting battery's chemistry behavior under load. The guy who wrote this seems to genuinely believe that almost all of the energy is still hidden there magically and that pesky ESR is just some kind of a trimpot in series being turned by some little mot*********g gnome hiding inside, just to rain on your parade, blocking these 80% of energy from you just because f**k you, that's why :palm: It's so convincingly audiophile-grade delusional it almost seems as if they hired some student to write it, someone who actually believed what he just wrote. Well played.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on July 27, 2015, 06:49:24 pm

not sure if this been posted before:

https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html (https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html)

Quote

Discussing the EEVBlog video, he says: “I think he’s a good guy. I think he just didn’t know enough.”

Quote

Yahoo Makers was only able to try out the Batteriser briefly in our offices.

Quote

In the end, of course, neither the company’s claims nor the doubters’ blogs and YouTube videos will determine the true potential of the Batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 27, 2015, 08:20:35 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on July 27, 2015, 03:12:04 pm

I am impressed at the price point they're able to achieve. Being an insider at Flextronics has its benefits.

They might actually be losing money on them if it's all part of a bigger scam.

$30,000 is a ridiculously low funding level. They already spent more then that making the pretty prototypes, making videos, etc. They're obviously doing this to attract bigger fish afterwards or something.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on July 27, 2015, 08:56:46 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 27, 2015, 08:20:35 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on July 27, 2015, 03:12:04 pm

I am impressed at the price point they're able to achieve. Being an insider at Flextronics has its benefits.

They might actually be losing money on them if it's all part of a bigger scam.

$30,000 is a ridiculously low funding level. They already spent more then that making the pretty prototypes, making videos, etc. They're obviously doing this to attract bigger fish afterwards or something.

Agreed that the funding level is silly, but this is advertising. These guys have money. I'm not sure they're losing money. Flextronics is one of the worlds best CMs. I'm pretty sure these guys can handle a 10 item BOM.

Looking at the credentials, if these guys are *complete* hucksters, they definitely are a grade or three up from the norm on IndieGoGo. They just sold a networked flash drive company to WD, so there is capital somewhere. Why they chose IGG instead of a more reputable venue is a good question and a red flag. But my bet is that people actually do receive their overbilled device that helps address a deficiency in older, or poorly engineered, or just cheap products. I just don't expect to see Apple trackpad users suddenly doing handsprings over their newfound battery longevity.

And I'm certain they are trying to sell the company. It's what they do: Build. Sell. Repeat.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 27, 2015, 09:02:17 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on July 27, 2015, 08:56:46 pm

And I'm certain they are trying to sell the company. It's what they do: Build. Sell. Repeat.

That could be it.

Make a "successfully funded" product (they're hardly going to fail to get $30,000 - if the public doesn't step up obligingly they can probably fill the gap themselves).

Next look for a sucker to buy the company for $10 million.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on July 27, 2015, 09:03:00 pm

[Tinfoilhatmode]

Maybe it's all just one big social experiment funded by the government to measure our stupidity and see how far they've dumbed us down so far?

[/Tinfoilhatmode]

MCBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 09:55:18 pm

https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma (https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma)

What Batteriser think of me: “I think he’s a good guy. I think he just didn’t know enough.”
That's kindly  :-DD
Guess I'll have to respond in kind showing how little he knows.  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on July 27, 2015, 10:14:06 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 09:55:18 pm

https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma (https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma)

What Batteriser think of me: “I think he’s a good guy. I think he just didn’t know enough.”
That's kindly  :-DD
Guess I'll have to respond in kind showing how little he knows.  ;D

Now, you just remember young laddie!  No applying a voltage to the battery terminals to determine when the battery indicates "low" unless you include a series resistor which will definitively show um... er... uhh... well...it's darn important.  Just do that and trust me that the results will be very different.  Somehow.  Some way.  We hope that the result changes. 

Just do what we say, or we probe the monkey again.  :o

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on July 27, 2015, 10:30:40 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 09:55:18 pm

https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma (https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma)

What Batteriser think of me: “I think he’s a good guy. I think he just didn’t know enough.”
That's kindly  :-DD
Guess I'll have to respond in kind showing how little he knows.  ;D

Do I smell another excuse to buy more test gear? There are several Keithley 2306 battery simulators on eBay...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 28, 2015, 12:04:54 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 07:46:00 am

OMG!
Batteriser have finally admitted they were wrong and used the wrong voltage measurement to characterise their product!
They have changed the wording on their website completely to finally mention battery voltage under load, with a caveat that that related to 1.3V open circuit  :-DD
But they still cling to their stupid 80% unused energy claim, and even use it in the same headline implying that an under load dropout voltage of now 1.1V still translates to 80% unused energy.
Oops, how embarrassing!  :-DD  :palm:
The silly thing is their claim is now even more demonstrably untrue!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162891;image)

And they have changed their claim AGAIN!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=163005;image)

They ave now removed the admission of 1.1V under load!
No wonder because they know their x8 claim cannot hold water now with admitting that 1.1V is the typical under load dropout voltage. They truly have no legs left the stand on.
My new video will prove this (right at the end), but the new video wasn't really intended as a Batteriser video.
They have to be closely monitoring this forum as they seem to be making changes based on the responses here to hide their tracks.
They even included a link to a used battery report in the campaign that was posted here, and they are using it as evidence. Of course they still don't have their own evidence to show after 5 years or work on this, not a single thing. It's one of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen!  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 28, 2015, 12:19:06 am

They have even changed their logo!
http://batteriser.com/press/ (http://batteriser.com/press/)

Used to be:
(http://www.eevblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/batteriser_final_logo_tag.png)

Now it's:
(http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/batteriser_final_logo_tag1.jpg)

And they have the hide to say I don't know what I'm talking about! They have changed almost everythign based on my debunking this thing :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: nitro2k01 on July 28, 2015, 12:54:41 am

Quote

Roohparvar says the critics ignore the differences in internal resistance between a battery and the equipment used to test voltages.

So he admits that he knows what ESR is. Now, if he would just explain how a voltage boost circuit would make the battery deliver enough current when the ESR creeps up in the single digit ohms.  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on July 28, 2015, 01:26:09 am

By the way, Batteriser Batteroo, since you're clearly keeping up with this, I wondered if you have asked Apple how they feel about your website insinuating that their battery management is poor:

(http://www.batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/how_it_works01.jpg)
(http://www.batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/how_it_works03.jpg)
(http://www.batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/how_it_works04.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on July 28, 2015, 01:42:02 am

I've been busy... :palm:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=163054;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on July 28, 2015, 02:01:38 am

The 8x part is obviously a scam. But, it is a different matter to make it obvious for average non-EEs who may not know the difference between voltage, wattage and energy.  All the numbers, graphs and theories can help very little here. 

On the other hand, a simple video with proper test setup can be much more convincing: The monkey toy can be a good test device for being "well-known" as a "battery tester". The test setup should use a stack DC-DC converter ( that presumably uses a similar technology, except the miniature part) and a bunch of random dead batteries that has open voltage above 1.3V.   

The important thing to test is to measure how long the toy can play with such test setup. This compared to the working time of a set of fresh batteries will, much better, show how much capacity is left in random dead batteries.

The fact that Batteriser guys did not show any data with tests similar to the above one  already implied they are pulling a scam. Their video about the the keyboard showed full battery and, then, they skipped the important part, that is to show how long this full battery status lasted. Obviously, something they are trying to hide.

 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 28, 2015, 02:09:50 am

Quote from: onlooker on July 28, 2015, 02:01:38 am

The important thing to test is to measure how long the toy can play with such test setup. This compared to the working time of a set of fresh batteries will, much better, show how much capacity is left in random dead batteries.

After 5 years of development they still have not shown a single full discharge test comparison.

Quote

The fact that Batteriser guys did not show any data with tests similar to the above one  already implied they are pulling a scam. Their video about the the keyboard showed full battery and, then, they skipped the important part, that is to show how long this full battery status lasted. Obviously, something they are trying to hide.

They are still running that Apple keyboard 100% demo to media, as late as last week.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on July 28, 2015, 02:14:28 am

Quote from: SeanB on July 27, 2015, 05:02:56 pm

PHD - Piled Higher and Deeper.

What's with the hate for PhDs?

Am I the only one that thinks that it takes hard work to become one and it's not a waste of time? Without the theory developed mostly by PhDs there would be no engineering.

Or is someone in here going to tell Shahriar that he wasted all those years/money for nothing and that getting employed at Bell Labs is really not that big of a deal?

Please don't equate that because the batteriser CEO has a PhD that PhDs in general know nothing.  I bet even the batterizer CEO knows exactly what he is doing one way or the other, even if it's just to build up the business to sell it before people do detailed analysis of the product, even if he promised an independent study will come shortly (probably after the campaign is over of course) and by that time they probably sell the company as other suggested.

Anyways, me for one, I do admire the efforts and struggles PhD students go through. I worked with many PhDs in my life and only one of them was an entitled a-hole, the rest where very nice and down to earth. But the distribution for A-holes don't have degree barriers. Some people are just that way.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on July 28, 2015, 03:49:26 am

OK Batteroo,

Since you doctorates depend on undergrads to do your work for you, here it is:

Apple Trackpad (this will be very similar to the keyboard since both are bluetooth): 

0% indication voltage:  2.10V / 1.05V per cell

Functional cutoff voltage:  1.85 / or 0.925V per cell

Before you and your "engineer" go doing handsprings down the hallway because 0.925V is higher than the 0.8V specified by Duracell, I refer you to the same graph Dave did below, where you will see that 0.925 is very nearly depleted.  If you need an exact % of area under the curve of energy remaining, I'll have that in a few days, as I need to do that for a project anyway. By counting squares, I'm estimating the remaining charge is less than 5%.  Please show me the math of how you plan to extrapolate that <5% into 800% better battery life.

Oh, and your argument about the voltage drop under load?  Bullshit.  Peak current is about 0.050 mA, and the measured voltage drop against fresh AA cells under that load is approximately 0.02V per cell.  0.04V one way or another does not meaningfully change reality here.  Will running electric motors have a higher voltage drop due to the current draw?  Of course they will.  But since your front page advertising is directed squarely towards modern electronics, I'm going to point this out to you (as if it hadn't been done enough already):  virtually all well-designed electronics use up their battery capacity nowadays. 

In other words, Apple is already extracting a very practical amount of energy from their batteries and leaving enough headroom to help prevent leakage due to over-discharge.  As a former Apple employee, it's surprising to me you don't know that.  Hmm...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 04:44:42 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on July 28, 2015, 03:49:26 am

Apple is already extracting a very practical amount of energy from their batteries and leaving enough headroom to help prevent leakage due to over-discharge.

Aren't people going to be annoyed that their battery indicators have stopped working?

Mucking around with the battery-level indicator is a cute press demo but real users are going to be angry that the indicator is now useless and their keyboards are dropping dead unexpectedly (and the level indicator wasn't warning them to have some spare batteries around).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on July 28, 2015, 04:46:02 am

I tried discharging a alkaline battery with constant power down to 0.3 volt to see where how much energy is available at the low voltage:
(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/cpf3/Duracell%20Plus%20Power%20AA-discharge-0.1W%20capacity.png)
It looks like there is about 10% below 1 volt.
The spikes on the curve is unloaded voltage, measured during a 1 minute pause.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 04:51:21 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 28, 2015, 02:09:50 am

After 5 years of development they still have not shown a single full discharge test comparison.

I predict that for every device that works better with a batteriser (and I admit there will be some!) there will be at least half a dozen which get shorter overall battery life.

(And with the double annoyance that battery level indicators no longer work).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 28, 2015, 05:16:19 am

Quote from: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 04:44:42 am

Aren't people going to be annoyed that their battery indicators have stopped working?

Yep, very.

Quote

Mucking around with the battery-level indicator is a cute press demo but real users are going to be angry that the indicator is now useless and their keyboards are dropping dead unexpectedly (and the level indicator wasn't warning them to have some spare batteries around).

Yep. First time it happens they will throw it in the bin in frustration.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 28, 2015, 05:17:53 am

Quote from: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 04:51:21 am

I predict that for every device that works better with a batteriser (and I admit there will be some!) there will be at least half a dozen which get shorter overall battery life.

You'll be spot on.
They are now backtracking on their claim of it working with rechargeables. They are now recommending in the Indiegogo comments not to use it with rechargeables.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Lightages on July 28, 2015, 05:26:11 am

Most rechargeable battery chemistries will self destruct if taken down to 0 voltage, or even below 20%. They shouldn't be backtracking, they should be screaming to not use them for rechargeables!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on July 28, 2015, 05:34:04 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 28, 2015, 02:09:50 am

After 5 years of development they still have not shown a single full discharge graph

Development? 5 years of meetings which actress to hire (and f...) for their promovids is more likely.
Probably they only started last year but that sounds worse then 5 years just as " lasts longer" sounds worse then 8 times more.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BravoV on July 28, 2015, 05:35:33 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 28, 2015, 05:17:53 am

They are now backtracking on their claim of it working with rechargeables. They are now recommending in the Indiegogo comments not to use it with rechargeables.

Wait till they backtracking even on "NON" rechargeables, as certain alkaline don't like to be discharged "deeply" as they will leak.  :-DD

Batteroo , guarantee it will make you alkaline cell leak like hell !!!  >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on July 28, 2015, 05:57:32 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 27, 2015, 07:46:00 am

OMG!
Batteriser have finally admitted they were wrong and used the wrong voltage measurement to characterise their product!

It looks like a hasty update as they didn't even edit the English; it should be "A significant number of... still have a lot of energy left in them."

More amusingly, they changed "makes your batteries last longer" to "makes it last longer"... which could be interpreted as making the Batteriser last longer and not the batteries! :-DD

The phrase "intelligent voltage management and delivery mechanism device" is really awkward too. Maybe they really wanted to slather on the marketese and do something like this instead:

Quote

Batteriser leverages intelligent voltage management and world-class delivery mechanisms through boost conversion to provide devices worldwide with robust, scalable, modern turnkey implementations of flexible, personalized, cutting-edge power management solution architectures that accelerate response to real-world current demands and reliably adapt to evolving energy needs, seamlessly and efficiently integrating and synchronizing with their existing legacy infrastructure, enhancing the battery consumption capabilities of production consumer electronic devices across the market while giving them a critical competitive advantage by extending their runtime capability to the next level.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 06:02:03 am

Quote from: Lightages on July 28, 2015, 05:26:11 am

Most rechargeable battery chemistries will self destruct if taken down to 0 voltage, or even below 20%. They shouldn't be backtracking, they should be screaming to not use them for rechargeables!

And non-rechargeables might leak! Double whammy!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on July 28, 2015, 08:13:55 am

They are already 261% funded in two days, how many green power morons just press that button  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lapm on July 28, 2015, 11:39:52 am

Quote from: Kjelt on July 28, 2015, 08:13:55 am

They are already 261% funded in two days, how many green power morons just press that button  :palm:

Great mass of people don't understand basic math/engineering principles enough to save themselves from scam...

Or where you think all those believers of directional audio cables come from  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 12:13:02 pm

Indiegogo has a policy of not allowing scam products: https://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms (https://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms)

Quote

Prohibited Campaigns

Campaign Owners are not permitted to create a Campaign to raise funds for illegal activities, to cause harm to people or property, or to scam others.

If the Campaign is claiming to do the impossible or it's just plain phony, don't post it.

Maybe it's time to drop them a line...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on July 28, 2015, 12:24:25 pm

IGG is part of scamming process.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 12:29:00 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 12:13:02 pm

Quote

Prohibited Campaigns

If the Campaign is claiming to do the impossible or it's just plain phony, don't post it.

Maybe it's time to drop them a line...

Line dropped, FWIW.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 28, 2015, 12:36:23 pm

Quote from: lapm on July 28, 2015, 11:39:52 am

Quote from: Kjelt on July 28, 2015, 08:13:55 am

They are already 261% funded in two days, how many green power morons just press that button  :palm:

Great mass of people don't understand basic math/engineering principles enough to save themselves from scam...

Or where you think all those believers of directional audio cables come from  ;)

You can't really expect people to know everything, I certainly don't. Problem is that people put their trust in the wrong people.

Societies are based on trust, we tend to inherently trust other people in the community. It's probably something that is hard-coded in us on a fundamental level. A small percentage of people might be willing and able to take advantage of that unless there are mechanisms in place that prevent it.

People are also really bad at judging who to trust and who not to trust (source criticism), and people often believe what they want to be true rather than what is realistic, empirically provably fact or not. There is lots of interesting psychology going on I'm sure.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 12:52:28 pm

Quote from: apis on July 28, 2015, 12:36:23 pm

Quote from: lapm on July 28, 2015, 11:39:52 am

Or where you think all those believers of directional audio cables come from  ;)

You can't really expect people to know everything

They don't have to know everything, just enough to smell a rat.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 28, 2015, 12:56:53 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 12:52:28 pm

Quote from: apis on July 28, 2015, 12:36:23 pm

You can't really expect people to know everything

They don't have to know everything, just enough to smell a rat.

I agree. The average intelligent person in the modern technical age should be able to see a claim like "8x longer battery life" and think "hang on, I've been using batteries all my life, and suddenly someone found a way to increase the battery life 8 times?, I smell an "up to" spec rat"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 28, 2015, 01:26:26 pm

In this case I agree that the claims they make are ridiculous, like 800% battery life, but people are used to exaggerated claims in advertising (and in many cases it's not like that, take the "anti corrosion car thing" mentioned elsewhere for example). These claims have also been repeated by what many would consider reliable sources. To most people a computer is just magic for example, so why shouldn't some gadget by some clever people be able to extend the battery life, if not by 800% ::), at least by a little. And then there are all the below average intelligent people that doesn't deserve to be scammed either.

Complaining about people being suckers won't help at least, because that will never change. (Consider all the people who pay hundreds of dollars for homoeopathic remedies, which have been proven over and over is obviously nothing else than plain water.  :palm:)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on July 28, 2015, 01:34:59 pm

Quote from: apis on July 28, 2015, 12:36:23 pm

Quote from: lapm on July 28, 2015, 11:39:52 am

Quote from: Kjelt on July 28, 2015, 08:13:55 am

They are already 261% funded in two days, how many green power morons just press that button  :palm:

Great mass of people don't understand basic math/engineering principles enough to save themselves from scam...

Or where you think all those believers of directional audio cables come from  ;)

You can't really expect people to know everything, I certainly don't. Problem is that people put their trust in the wrong people.

Societies are based on trust, we tend to inherently trust other people in the community. It's probably something that is hard-coded in us on a fundamental level. A small percentage of people might be willing and able to take advantage of that unless there are mechanisms in place that prevent it.

Naive or uneducated people believe things on trust.  Other people stop and think for themselves.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 28, 2015, 02:30:03 pm

Quote from: mikerj on July 28, 2015, 01:34:59 pm

Naive or uneducated people believe things on trust.  Other people stop and think for themselves.

History shows that people aren't very good at thinking for themselves, not until we started testing if things actually work the way we believe (and they usually do not) did we make any progress.

Education is based mostly on trust in the teacher, books, school/uni and so on. To be really certain you'd have to test all the things you've learned and that isn't practical for most people. Of course, if you work with electronics for example, you would have noticed if things doesn't work as expected (i.e. you are testing the theory) but there will be much you can't test. How do you know the moon landing wasn't an elaborate hoax?

In this case, Dave did the proper thing and tested a couple of devices and showed that they do not stop working at 1.35 V. Problem is that Batteroo then says Dave performed the test the wrong way... Unless you yourself can tell who's right it comes down to trust.

But OK, I'll admit that in this case there are many red flags, like Dave isn't the one who's asking for money and 8x battery time is just way out there, etc.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 02:32:08 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 28, 2015, 12:56:53 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 12:52:28 pm

They don't have to know everything, just enough to smell a rat.

I agree. The average intelligent person in the modern technical age should be able to see a claim like "8x longer battery life" and think "hang on, I've been using batteries all my life, and suddenly someone found a way to increase the battery life 8 times?, I smell an "up to" spec rat"

I wonder: At what point would people actually stop and think?

"Up to 100x longer battery life!"

 (from our newly discovered quantum battery booster - tap into the quantum field that surrounds us all)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 02:36:15 pm

Quote from: mikerj on July 28, 2015, 01:34:59 pm

Naive or uneducated people believe things on trust.  Other people stop and think for themselves.

Education was compulsory in a lot of places last time I checked.

(But I don't remember receiving any 'critical thinking' classes at school...maybe that's the real problem)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 28, 2015, 02:46:23 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 02:36:15 pm

(But I don't remember receiving any 'critical thinking' classes at school...maybe that's the real problem)

That sounds like a good idea!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 05:57:11 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 12:29:00 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 12:13:02 pm

Quote

Prohibited Campaigns

If the Campaign is claiming to do the impossible or it's just plain phony, don't post it.

Maybe it's time to drop them a line...

Line dropped, FWIW.

"Hi there,

Thank you for sharing your concern with us. At this time, the campaign is under review to ensure that it adheres to our Terms of Use (http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms (http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms)). We will follow up with you if we have any further questions.

So what happens now? We will include the information you have provided along with all other information at our disposal in our review of the campaign. In some cases, we will contact the campaign owner to have them edit their campaign and it will remain on our platform. If the project doesn't follow our rules, we may remove the campaign. We may also restrict the campaign owner's future activities on Indiegogo.

To protect our users' privacy, we're unable to share the action we take. At Indiegogo, we take the trust and safety of our community very seriously, and we greatly appreciate your patience and understanding throughout this review process. To learn more about Indiegogo’s Trust & Safety effort, please visit: www.indiegogo.com/trust (http://www.indiegogo.com/trust)"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheSlider on July 28, 2015, 07:40:20 pm

I was posting a reply to a user when they spammed the comments youtube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOMYDkxUWt8)
So then I came here and saw this huge topic. Wow. Are they doing this on every video mentioning the Batteriser ? Looks like someone is having fun with a bot.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Carl_Smith on July 29, 2015, 04:02:01 am

Just had a thought.  This is like the 200mpg carburetor conspiracy.  People want to believe, even if it does defy the laws of physics.

Dave is being paid off by "big battery" to make sure that their sales aren't negatively impacted.   :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on July 29, 2015, 07:39:30 am

Quote from: Carl_Smith on July 29, 2015, 04:02:01 am

Dave is being paid off by "big battery" to make sure that their sales aren't negatively impacted.   :-DD

We'll know if he turns up in a Varta / Duracell T-Shirt in the next video :)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 29, 2015, 10:22:20 am

Quote from: TheSlider on July 28, 2015, 07:40:20 pm

I was posting a reply to a user when they spammed the comments
So then I came here and saw this huge topic. Wow. Are they doing this on every video mentioning the Batteriser ? Looks like someone is having fun with a bot.

Yes, there is clear evidence that Batteriser are paying SEO people to spam comments on videos.
The "fan" Youtube channel for Batteriser that claims to be independent is anything but, it's most likely them, or someone paid by them.
And the "fan videos" that have been submitted are clearly fake and professionally shot and scripted.
It's so pathetic.
All classic startup Kickstarter marketing BS straight out of the MBA playbook.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 29, 2015, 10:33:22 am

Quote from: apis on July 28, 2015, 02:30:03 pm

In this case, Dave did the proper thing and tested a couple of devices and showed that they do not stop working at 1.35 V. Problem is that Batteroo then says Dave performed the test the wrong way... Unless you yourself can tell who's right it comes down to trust.

Then Batteroo finally came out and admitted that it was actually 1.1V under load they talking about, thus proving I am completely right. After 5 years of developing this and never once mentioning it in the patent or their website or any promo material, press, or videos etc, they finally admitted it. But it only lasted a day or two before they removed the mention of 1.1V under load form their website.
Luckily I had it screen captured:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162891;image)
Everyone should keep reposting this everywhere!
It blows their claim completely out of the water, and it's why they had to change the wording in their promo video too, their logo etc.
They know that once they admitted that it's trivial for anyone to look a battery datasheet and see how much energy is really wasted in the battery at the 1.1V cutoff they have admitted. That puts their product, buy their own admission!, in the territory of only applying to a smaller number of badly designed products. No wonder they removed it.

The only thing they had left to defend themselves was the ridiculous and embarrassing claim that I did the testing wrong.
I'm in two minds whether to do another video busting absolutely everything they have done and have said, and changed etc. But I know it won't amount to a hill of beans.
Should I bother?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on July 29, 2015, 10:42:23 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 29, 2015, 10:22:20 am

...
The "fan" Youtube channel for Batteriser that claims to be independent is anything but, it's most likely them, or someone paid by them.
And the "fan videos" that have been submitted are clearly fake and professionally shot and scripted.
It's so pathetic.
...

The first fan video (nature man) was submitted before they explained on youtube and google+ how and where to submit them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 29, 2015, 10:50:53 am

Quote from: jancumps on July 29, 2015, 10:42:23 am

The first fan video (nature man) was submitted before they explained on youtube and google+ how and where to submit them.

That's what you can do when you paid to shoot it  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 29, 2015, 10:54:06 am

They claim in a recent article that they tested it in a GPS thingo and got 5 times the battery life.
Ok, great, why can't they just show this, use that as their big demo and then claim "up to 5 times"?
Instead they have to put on this bullshit dog and pony show that is flat out lies, deception, and demonstrable stupidity  :palm:
People would still buy their product if they were just honest about the whole thing.
They still haven't released any data they said was their "top priority", and of course, they won't, ever.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on July 29, 2015, 11:02:50 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on July 28, 2015, 01:42:02 am

I've been busy... :palm:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=163054;image)

Wytnucls just posted on another thread that they may release a version for rechargeables.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on July 29, 2015, 11:25:14 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 29, 2015, 10:54:06 am

They claim in a recent article that they tested it in a GPS thingo and got 5 times the battery life.

Of all the devices they could've cherry-picked, they picked one that's almost certain to have a boost converter already built in... :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 29, 2015, 11:29:05 am

Quote from: amyk on July 29, 2015, 11:25:14 am

Of all the devices they could've cherry-picked, they picked one that's almost certain to have a boost converter already built in... :palm:

The only evidence they have ever presented is the video on the (non DC-DC converter) torch light meter test.
Of course, modern torches have DC-DC converters for a reason  ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on July 29, 2015, 11:34:23 am

Was reading the comments on IGG, so they're rolling their own IC? Wow.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on July 29, 2015, 11:40:02 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 29, 2015, 11:29:05 am

The only evidence they have ever presented is the video on the (non DC-DC converter) torch light meter test.
Of course, modern torches have DC-DC converters for a reason  ::)

Yes, it is a bit problematic to run a led on 1.5V, but the drivers do not always try to get constant brightness (It is usual a bad idea on a single cell).
Lights with more batteries may go for constant brights or with timed dimming.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on July 29, 2015, 01:45:22 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 28, 2015, 02:32:08 pm

I wonder: At what point would people actually stop and think?

"Up to 100x longer battery life!"

Something that came to my mind too.

Let's overdo them. Let's make a video claiming that batteriseroo's technology is dated, and claim we have a "much thinner stronger better" case that gives "up to xxx" times more energy, in "significantly more" devices.

I carry 5000 patents.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 29, 2015, 01:52:33 pm

Quote from: jancumps on July 29, 2015, 10:42:23 am

The first fan video (nature man) was submitted before they explained on youtube and google+ how and where to submit them.

And you know that ... how?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 30, 2015, 11:36:49 am

Impromptu 30min rant on the Batteriser here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=199gtbX1y4M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=199gtbX1y4M)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on July 30, 2015, 11:43:11 am

Google ads is too intelligent  :o

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 30, 2015, 12:04:32 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on July 30, 2015, 11:43:11 am

Google ads is too intelligent  :o

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=163461;image)

I've seen it on ebay too, they are everywhere.
It's funny how they have to raise $30K on crowd funding site but have endless money for adsense ads, slick marketing campaigns with professionally shot videos etc.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 30, 2015, 12:36:07 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 30, 2015, 11:36:49 am

Impromptu 30min rant on the Batteriser here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=199gtbX1y4M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=199gtbX1y4M)

The best batteriser video yet!

PS: But I don't the product is fine, bullshit marketing or otherwise. I'm fairly sure that most products will get less battery life with a Batteriser than without. Plus it stops your battery-life indicator from working, and you risk battery damage and data loss in products like cameras which check the battery voltage before writing to SD cards.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 30, 2015, 12:51:02 pm

Dave II's mum used to check battery voltages??   :popcorn:

THAT's a mum!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 30, 2015, 01:09:05 pm

If you want to do another video you should simulate a Batteriser using a DC boost converter. I don't know if there's an off-the-shelf one with those voltages (single AA battery in, 1.5V out).

With one of those you can log the power curves for different modes (constant power, constant current) and see how battery lifetimes compare to just using the batteries on their own.

For constant power you'd have to feed into a second boost converter to make it realistic.

Log the total power use, show the boost-converter efficiency, draw conclusions.

If you can't find an off the self converter for 1.1 to 1.5V you could put three batteries in series and use a common-as-muck 5V booster. If you get one of the newer "PFM" converters they're usually close to 90% efficient - most likely much better than the batteriser can manage with its tiny inductor. Would people accept that? EEVBLOG viewers know it's equivalent, but...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on July 30, 2015, 01:13:11 pm

Or just wait till they are released and do a few real-world tests with the actual product.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 30, 2015, 01:26:21 pm

Quote from: McBryce on July 30, 2015, 01:13:11 pm

Or just wait till they are released and do a few real-world tests with the actual product.

The delivery time is October. That's far too late.

There's still time to get their crowdfunding cancelled... it's not over yet. Indiegogo's terms of use prohibit scam products or products that "claim to do the impossible".

The claims being made on the crowdfunding front page are clearly impossible.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 30, 2015, 01:29:29 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 30, 2015, 12:36:07 pm

PS: But I don't the product is fine, bullshit marketing or otherwise. I'm fairly sure that most products will get less battery life with a Batteriser than without. Plus it stops your battery-life indicator from working, and you risk battery damage and data loss in products like cameras which check the battery voltage before writing to SD cards.

Sure, but I still think it could be a good product in several (but minority of) circumstances.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 30, 2015, 01:30:54 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 30, 2015, 01:29:29 pm

Sure, but I still think it could be a good product in several (but minority of) circumstances.

I think the only example we've found so far is "Olympus Cameras".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on July 30, 2015, 01:32:00 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 30, 2015, 01:26:21 pm

Indiegogo's terms of use prohibit scam products or products that "claim to do the impossible".

What if "some website" puts some text online, naming it "our own terms of use" and does nothing with it?
Are they held responsible in court, and have to pay back everyone, because they didn't investigate and delete it?

Or is that just part of the whole marketing scam?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 30, 2015, 01:37:12 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 30, 2015, 01:09:05 pm

If you can't find an off the self converter for 1.1 to 1.5V you could put three batteries in series and use a common-as-muck 5V booster. If you get one of the newer "PFM" converters they're usually close to 90% efficient - most likely much better than the batteriser can manage with its tiny inductor. Would people accept that? EEVBLOG viewers know it's equivalent, but...

Yes, it's got to be using PFM of some description, otherwise the efficiency response will be horrible. And yes, I don't see how the required ultra tiny inductor can be doing it nay favors at all, I expect a fair bit of droopy somewhere. But that remains to be seen.
Why wouldn't they be boasting to the hilt if it was super efficient across the entire current range?
I don't understand how you can spend 5 years developing this, do a custom ASIC converter, and not publish an efficiency curve for it?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 30, 2015, 01:39:15 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on July 30, 2015, 01:32:00 pm

Are they held responsible in court, and have to pay back everyone, because they didn't investigate and delete it?

I don't know but I'm betting it's a lot harder to do anything after the campaign is over and the funds released.

I wrote to Indiegogo and got this reply:

Quote

Hi there,

Thank you for sharing your concern with us. At this time, the campaign is under review to ensure that it adheres to our Terms of Use (http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms (http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms)). We will follow up with you if we have any further questions.

So what happens now? We will include the information you have provided along with all other information at our disposal in our review of the campaign. In some cases, we will contact the campaign owner to have them edit their campaign and it will remain on our platform. If the project doesn't follow our rules, we may remove the campaign. We may also restrict the campaign owner's future activities on Indiegogo.

I'm not sure how "editing the campaign" helps people who already signed up for a product but it's clear that campaigns can be cancelled.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 30, 2015, 01:41:56 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 30, 2015, 01:37:12 pm

I don't understand how you can spend 5 years developing this, do a custom ASIC converter, and not publish an efficiency curve for it?

There's only one plausible answer: "People would point at it and laugh!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 30, 2015, 04:16:23 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 29, 2015, 10:33:22 am

Luckily I had it screen captured:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=162891;image)
Everyone should keep reposting this everywhere!
It blows their claim completely out of the water, and it's why they had to change the wording in their promo video too, their logo etc.
They know that once they admitted that it's trivial for anyone to look a battery datasheet and see how much energy is really wasted in the battery at the 1.1V cutoff they have admitted. That puts their product, buy their own admission!, in the territory of only applying to a smaller number of badly designed products. No wonder they removed it.

The only thing they had left to defend themselves was the ridiculous and embarrassing claim that I did the testing wrong.
I'm in two minds whether to do another video busting absolutely everything they have done and have said, and changed etc. But I know it won't amount to a hill of beans.
Should I bother?

Might be a good idea to update the "the batteriser explained" page with that admission! :D

I suspect you have said all that can be said to convince those who can be convinced. Do another video if it's fun, but just don't expect them to admit they were wrong (well, any more than they already have!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on July 30, 2015, 04:22:25 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 30, 2015, 01:30:54 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 30, 2015, 01:29:29 pm

Sure, but I still think it could be a good product in several (but minority of) circumstances.

I think the only example we've found so far is "Olympus Cameras".

And that cheap flashlight they showed perhaps (if you prefer constant light flux over battery-life), but why not spend the money for a batteriser on a better flashlight instead. (I would bet they got the flashlight idea from the eevblog forum as well.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on July 30, 2015, 08:13:56 pm

They change it again!

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: KennethAa on July 30, 2015, 08:43:38 pm

David,

I'd like to help you out in figuring out the packet based comm you mentioned in the X-carve V3 video. Contact me.

With regards,
Kenneth

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on July 30, 2015, 10:35:41 pm

Quote from: firewalker on July 30, 2015, 08:13:56 pm

They change it again!

Alexander.

Seems the same to me as this one:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=163005;image)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=163005 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=163005)

...or am I missing something?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on July 30, 2015, 10:39:04 pm

What I find really annoying is that none of the changes has been announced on their IGG Update page. Seems obvious to me to explain any changes in the product goal or specification, especially after the campaign already started,  so people who already paid are given a chance to re-evaluate the situation and possibly ask for their money back.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on July 30, 2015, 10:55:24 pm

Quote from: dcac on July 30, 2015, 10:39:04 pm

What I find really annoying is that none of the changes has been announced on their IGG Update page. Seems obvious to me to explain any changes in the product goal or specification, especially after the campaign already started,  so people who already paid are given a chance to re-evaluate the situation and possibly ask for their money back.

Maybe IGG is really investigating and bringing things up so they are forced to change their claims unless they can prove them, and they are not ready to prove them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on July 31, 2015, 12:14:31 am

I like how their claims are getting more and more vague, presumably because Dave and the others are shooting them down one by one. :-+

They started off with "8x longer", pure bullshit like "1.5V of energy" (:o), failed spectacularly with something about "number of 0.1V steps" (here (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html), someone might want to save that article in case they want it taken down), and now they're basically down to "a lot of energy left" and "makes it last longer".

It would be funny to see if it turns into "Batteriser may make batteries last longer for some devices under some usage conditions", which would certainly be true, but I doubt they would be as successful with the marketing if they said that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rs20 on July 31, 2015, 05:22:35 am

Quote from: amyk on July 31, 2015, 12:14:31 am

...(here (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html), someone might want to save that article in case they want it taken down)...

Wow, that article is spectacular:

Quote

<picture of massive pile of batteries>
This is my collection of spent alkaline batteries. Maybe it’s a good thing I never recycled them—with Batteriser I may never need to buy another battery again (barring leaks, of course).

Quote

A four-pack of Duracell AAs costs $4 on Amazon. Slip those AAs into a $10 set of Batterisers, and the circuit boosters will pay for themselves after three typical battery life cycles. Then, after that, you’ll theoretically get another five cycles of free battery life. And after that, the batteries themselves will be dead, but the Batterisers will live on to boost the lives of new batteries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on July 31, 2015, 05:35:30 am

That´s the story that started it all.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/'batterizer'-claims-to-increase-disposable-battery-life-8x/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/'batterizer'-claims-to-increase-disposable-battery-life-8x/)

So I´m pretty sure it´s going to stay put in there, just part of the marketing machine.

Pretty effective way to be picked up by the media, espionage and conspiracies, that would get the ball rolling! :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on July 31, 2015, 06:32:18 am

Quote from: amyk on July 31, 2015, 12:14:31 am

It would be funny to see if it turns into "Batteriser may make batteries last longer for some devices under some usage conditions"

Continuing on this road they will end up selling the batteriser as a stainless steel protective sleeve to avoid scratches on your batteries  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on July 31, 2015, 07:08:40 am

Quote from: Kjelt on July 31, 2015, 06:32:18 am

Quote from: amyk on July 31, 2015, 12:14:31 am

It would be funny to see if it turns into "Batteriser may make batteries last longer for some devices under some usage conditions"

Continuing on this road they will end up selling the batteriser as a stainless steel protective sleeve to avoid scratches on your batteries  :-DD

Two other options for the marketing department are as follows based on current trends :

1. Do your batteries roll off the table at the most inconvenient moments, even Mr Dave Jones himself suffers terribly with this most irritating problem, we may have a solution..... :blah: :blah: :blah: :bullshit:

2. Are you safety conscious and concerned about the disposal of batteries that still have some remaining power left in them, well we are, and you should be, our new device can assist by safely dissipating that dangerously stored energy..... :blah: :blah: :blah: :bullshit:

Copyright : Dont even think about it. !


Muttley

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 31, 2015, 07:35:27 am

Quote from: amyk on July 31, 2015, 12:14:31 am

I like how their claims are getting more and more vague, presumably because Dave and the others are shooting them down one by one. :-+
They started off with "8x longer", pure bullshit like "1.5V of energy" (:o), failed spectacularly with something about "number of 0.1V steps" (here (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html), someone might want to save that article in case they want it taken down), and now they're basically down to "a lot of energy left" and "makes it last longer".

And what they say in the promo video has changed as I mentioned a while back.
It used to say
"did you know all the batteries you've ever used have only used up to 20% of their battery life."
Now it's
"Did you know that a significant number of dead batteries you throw away had only used roughly 20% of their battery life"
 :-DD

And of course their new "significant number" claim is now even on more shaky legs because they have admitted that most products have a dropout voltage of 1.1V under load, on both their main page (now removed) and their FAQ.

Almost to a point of where a Wiki info article is required to keep up to date with all the changes!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 31, 2015, 07:39:36 am

Quote from: apis on July 30, 2015, 04:16:23 pm

Might be a good idea to update the "the batteriser explained" page with that admission! :D

Good idea, will go do that now.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on August 04, 2015, 09:16:21 am

The also claim that testing devices with a bench supply is not a good test. They even explain that in a video but right of the bat they do something completely wrong. They show that a device works until 0.9V with a powersupply but when using two batteries with around 1.2V in each cell it fails. But they measure the voltage of the batteries without a load so it doesn't claim much IMHO.

Check their website and especially their FAQ.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 04, 2015, 09:28:13 am

Quote from: meeder on August 04, 2015, 09:16:21 am

The also claim that testing devices with a bench supply is not a good test. They even explain that in a video but right of the bat they do something completely wrong. They show that a device works until 0.9V with a powersupply but when using two batteries with around 1.2V in each cell it fails. But they measure the voltage of the batteries without a load so it doesn't claim much IMHO.
Check their website and especially their FAQ.

Only until quite recently have they finally admitted that they measure battery volote not under load. Their entire patent and business model is developed around this fundamentally and embarrassing wrong technique.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 04, 2015, 09:33:06 am

Another "technical" video coming, we can't wait!:
From the Indigog comments from Mr Batteriser:

Quote

@Robert P Appreciate your very good question. We are in the process of making a technical video that shows how our Intelligent power management circuit would perform and address the issue that you have raised. This is why we call the Batteriser technology an intelligent power management and not just a simple DC-DC boost circuit

Funny thing is I can't find the questions from "Robert P"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on August 04, 2015, 11:45:59 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 04, 2015, 09:33:06 am

Funny thing is I can't find the questions from "Robert P"

From Robert P's facebook page  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on August 04, 2015, 12:20:39 pm

Quote from: meeder on August 04, 2015, 09:16:21 am

The also claim that testing devices with a bench supply is not a good test. They even explain that in a video but right of the bat they do something completely wrong. They show that a device works until 0.9V with a powersupply but when using two batteries with around 1.2V in each cell it fails. But they measure the voltage of the batteries without a load so it doesn't claim much IMHO.

I strongly believe that's deliberate. They know it doesn't work so they try to carefully sidestep the problem and sell it anyway. All the marketing is part of that. They won't ever give you a straight answer, including measuring the loaded voltage, because they know that would count against them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 04, 2015, 12:45:08 pm

Quote from: amyk on August 04, 2015, 12:20:39 pm

They won't ever give you a straight answer, including measuring the loaded voltage, because they know that would count against them.

They have actually admitted the loaded voltage is 1.1V, it was on their front page for a few days. It's still in their FAQ last I looked.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 04, 2015, 04:41:06 pm

I would love to add a FAQ to the Batteriser site called "Why Dr. Roohparvar cannot apply Thevenin's Theorem."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 05, 2015, 07:29:17 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 04, 2015, 04:41:06 pm

... "Why Dr. Roohparvar cannot apply Thevenin's Theorem."

...yes but internal resistance and power supplies...
:-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 05, 2015, 05:11:34 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on August 05, 2015, 07:29:17 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 04, 2015, 04:41:06 pm

... "Why Dr. Roohparvar cannot apply Thevenin's Theorem."

...yes but internal resistance and power supplies...
:-)

Fear not, for  I connected a 0.233242233214698 Ohm resistor in series with my power supply when I ran my trackpad test.

At 5ma, it changed *everything*...


... by 0.001V   :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 09, 2015, 08:37:53 am

Didn't the use an Apple keyboard to demonstrate the batteriser? How often has someone to change batteries to that keyboard. For my wireless keyboard is 2xAAA every 2,5 years.

(http://i.imgur.com/J0X4RZF.png)

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 09, 2015, 10:00:32 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 09, 2015, 08:37:53 am

Didn't the use an Apple keyboard to demonstrate the batteriser? How often has someone to change batteries to that keyboard. For my wireless keyboard is 2xAAA every 2,5 years.
(http://i.imgur.com/J0X4RZF.png)

That's another admission that will go in my blog article update.
The funny thing is, with that (obvious and always demonstrably true) admission it also shows that their custom ASIC that goes down to 0.5/0.6V is practically pointless, as there is virtually no energy left under 0.8V, except at very low currents which they are now saying the Batterier is not suited to.
And they used examples like low power wireless keyboards and remote controls extensively in their marketing campaigns. Oops, how embarrassing  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 09, 2015, 10:17:07 am

It seems the battery file for an Apple wireless keyboard (small aluminum one) is couple of months... What do they use the battery for? Heating up the aluminum plate for a warm touch?  :P :P :P

I can see product engineers to try and solve complaints about wrong battery indicators in products. :P

Also there is another answers to question that don't exist on IGG comments.  :-// :-// :-//

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 09, 2015, 10:57:02 am

They came up with some proof, here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c)

a Garmin GPS runs 5 times longer with the aid of batteriser.

It looks convincing, but I just can't believe this is right. Garmin engineers know what they are doing, I'm pretty sure of that.

So after a little search this product seems to be a Garmin Dakota. ( https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/prod30925.html (https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/prod30925.html) )

Now you can see this Dakota has a DC-DC converter just from the data that Batteroo provides (at 1:24), since the current consumption is rising to counteract the dropping voltage. You can also see some power saving actions kicking in at the end.

I checked the manual, and this state a battery life of max 20 hour, but of course that's with the backlight of.
But the manual also states that you have to select battery type. And this thing will run on alkaline, NiMH or Lithium. Now somehow I don't think they used the alkaline setting...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 09, 2015, 03:25:36 pm

Quote

The current consumption of the Batteriser is in micro amps...

How many uA would that be Bob?  Because that is going to make a huge difference in the battery lifetime of people's devices, particularly things like remote controls where the batteries can last for years. A few hundred uA of constant, parasitic load will shorten that life to months.

Yet another fantastic reason to NOT double up on boost converters.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on August 09, 2015, 03:45:56 pm

Quote from: PeterL on August 09, 2015, 10:57:02 am

They came up with some proof, here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c)

a Garmin GPS runs 5 times longer with the aid of batteriser.

It looks convincing, but I just can't believe this is right. Garmin engineers know what they are doing, I'm pretty sure of that.

Didn't bother to watch the whole video, but look at that first battery graph. About 2 hours with at most 300mA current draw. Worst case that would mean that the battery pack only contains 600mAh. That's about the capacity of an ancient AAA NiCD cell. AA NiMH cells contain about 2000mAh. Not completely sure about alkaline, but that should be about the same or even more.

Edit:
Looking at this Energizer datasheet:
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/E91.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/E91.pdf)
At half an amp the batteries should contain about 1200mA. Looking at the graph below that, for a 2 hour service life at 300mA the cutoff voltage is 1.2V, makes no sense for a device that runs on NiMH cells.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 09, 2015, 06:52:21 pm

And how much burden voltage does that data logger introduce into the test setup? Maybe Dave needs to comp them a microcurrent.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 09, 2015, 06:58:03 pm

Just a side note... Why they had to change batteries? Couldn't they use the batteriser to the depleted batteries?  :-// :-// :-//

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on August 09, 2015, 07:54:01 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 09, 2015, 06:52:21 pm

And how much burden voltage does that data logger introduce into the test setup? Maybe Dave needs to comp them a microcurrent.

Looks like they used a Dataq DI-145 logger for voltage (where is the graph?) and a Hantek 365 for current. http://www.hantek.com/Product/HT365/HT365_Manual.PDF (http://www.hantek.com/Product/HT365/HT365_Manual.PDF)

That Hantek doesn't really look like a precision instrument, I doubt the burden voltage is better than an average multimeter. Explains why they didn't show the voltage graph, they are probably pissing away almost half a volt. Also explains why the life is so short in the non-batteriser test.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 10, 2015, 02:33:05 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 09, 2015, 06:52:21 pm

And how much burden voltage does that data logger introduce into the test setup? Maybe Dave needs to comp them a microcurrent.

Not to mention all the interconnection and contact resistance in those long leads.
Notice how they don't measure nor tell you what the cutout voltage of the GPS is.
No need for any of the testing gear, just a clock, that automated tapper, and a time lapse camera. Compare the two. More technical smoke and mirrors only invites more criticism.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on August 10, 2015, 02:50:02 am

Quote

It looks convincing, but I just can't believe this is right. Garmin engineers know what they are doing, I'm pretty sure of that.

Maybe, someone has contact and can get Garmin engineers' attention. It is to their and their company's interest to tell their side of the the story. Garmin may have lawyers chasing after Batteriser soon.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 10, 2015, 03:03:20 am

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on August 09, 2015, 07:54:01 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 09, 2015, 06:52:21 pm

And how much burden voltage does that data logger introduce into the test setup? Maybe Dave needs to comp them a microcurrent.

Looks like they used a Dataq DI-145 logger for voltage (where is the graph?) and a Hantek 365 for current. http://www.hantek.com/Product/HT365/HT365_Manual.PDF (http://www.hantek.com/Product/HT365/HT365_Manual.PDF)

That Hantek doesn't really look like a precision instrument, I doubt the burden voltage is better than an average multimeter. Explains why they didn't show the voltage graph, they are probably pissing away almost half a volt. Also explains why the life is so short in the non-batteriser test.

I think you're likely close as far as the voltage drop.   If someone has one, it should take all of 10 minutes to find the burden voltage range between 100 and 300 mA. 

It's just so ridiculous that these guys run an ammeter in series during a power life test.  Do they *NOT* know that they're dissipating energy in the current shunt of the meter?!! 

================================================

Hey Bob, since you are still apparently reading these threads, here's some more free consulting engineering for you:

One must run *two* separate tests: one characterizing the current and a separate test measuring the battery voltage as a function of time.  You don't get to run both at once UNLESS you compensate for the voltage and power loss...

i.e., you pony up for a battery simulator:  http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2307914/battery-power-management-solutions?cc=US&lc=eng (http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2307914/battery-power-management-solutions?cc=US&lc=eng)

http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1842303-pn-N6705B/dc-power-analyzer-modular-600-w-4-slots?nid=-35714.937221.00&cc=US&lc=eng (http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1842303-pn-N6705B/dc-power-analyzer-modular-600-w-4-slots?nid=-35714.937221.00&cc=US&lc=eng)

You'll need some power modules too:
http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-838452-pn-N6733B/dc-power-module-20v-25a-50w?nid=-35714.384326.00&cc=US&lc=eng (http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-838452-pn-N6733B/dc-power-module-20v-25a-50w?nid=-35714.384326.00&cc=US&lc=eng)

With the current $214k that you'll receive from Indiegogo, you should have PLENTY of money to buy the right equipment for the job.  Or you could hire an engineer with a mere bachelor's degree that actually knows what they're doing and run two separate tests. 

What you folks have done to try and "prove your point" is to introduce two *additional*, substantial errors, simultaneously.  Maybe you should just stop trying, because it's only getting worse for you. 

And, Bob, in the interest of getting you a piece of equipment that *might* get you close to making something resembling a factual claim, I will send you my Microcurrent for free on the condition that you use it to un-hose this marketing campaign and make factual claims.  Just PM me. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 10, 2015, 03:19:44 am

Quote from: onlooker on August 10, 2015, 02:50:02 am

Quote

It looks convincing, but I just can't believe this is right. Garmin engineers know what they are doing, I'm pretty sure of that.

Maybe, someone has contact and can get Garmin engineers' attention. It is to their and their company's interest to tell their side of the the story. Garmin may have lawyers chasing after Batteriser soon.

Garmin tells users upfront that alkalines are not best-suited to their device.  In Batteriser's defense, that this *could* be a corner case where a boost converter makes alkalines more suitable for a high-drain device, but if they ran their test setup properly, the results would likely be far less dramatic. 

GPS is just a high-drain technology.  50-75mA draw just to run the receiver is pretty common.  So, virtually every manufacturer says not to use alkalines, but use NiMH or Lithium disposables - which have a fairly flat discharge curve as compared to an alkaline. 

This whole thing begs the question of "what is wrong with the truth?"  This clip on boost converter could be a nice solution for these corner cases, and I'd happily support it if the claims reflected reality: that this will only help a small minority of devices. But instead, they're still hyping 800%, and only slowly, begrudgingly admitting that no-one's keyboard batteries will last longer with their product. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 10, 2015, 03:22:48 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 10, 2015, 03:03:20 am

I think you're likely close as far as the voltage drop.   If someone has one, it should take all of 10 minutes to find the burden voltage range between 100 and 300 mA. 

According to the setup in video they are using the Amps jack, so burden will be much lower than the mA range, which likely wouldn't have been usable at all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 10, 2015, 03:25:39 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 10, 2015, 03:19:44 am

Garmin tells users upfront that alkalines are not best-suited to their device.  In Batteriser's defense, that this *could* be a corner case where a boost converter makes alkalines more suitable for a high-drain device

Oh course it is, that's why they chose it. I have no problem with that personally provided they are honest that this is an edge case.
Thankfully they have now admitted that the average modern products drops out at 1.1V at most. They had too of course, because their claims were borderline fraudulent. Now they can just happily get away with the usual "up to" marketing BS claim.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 10, 2015, 03:49:41 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 10, 2015, 03:22:48 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 10, 2015, 03:03:20 am

I think you're likely close as far as the voltage drop.   If someone has one, it should take all of 10 minutes to find the burden voltage range between 100 and 300 mA. 

According to the setup in video they are using the Amps jack, so burden will be much lower than the mA range, which likely wouldn't have been usable at all.

Do you have one?  I couldn't see the labels on those jacks for the life of me...  Nor could I tell from any of Hantek's photos...   :o

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on August 10, 2015, 04:06:39 am

Quote

Garmin tells users upfront that alkalines are not best-suited to their device.  In Batteriser's defense, that this *could* be a corner case...

Well, the GPS  already had a boost converter. It does not make sense that chaining two boost converters should have a lot gain in utilizing energy in batteries of any type, if any. It should have practically none, unless Garmin's design is at fault.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 10, 2015, 04:08:22 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 10, 2015, 03:49:41 am

Do you have one?  I couldn't see the labels on those jacks for the life of me...  Nor could I tell from any of Hantek's photos...   :o

You can see the jack used in the video, and a check of the manual front panel shows it's the Amps jack.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 10, 2015, 04:55:51 am

Quote from: onlooker on August 10, 2015, 04:06:39 am

Quote

Garmin tells users upfront that alkalines are not best-suited to their device.  In Batteriser's defense, that this *could* be a corner case...

Well, the GPS  already had a boost converter. It does not make sense that chaining two boost converters should have a lot gain in utilizing energy in batteries of any type, if any. It should have practically none, unless Garmin's design is at fault.

Duracell NiMH datasheet:  http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/nh15-2300.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/nh15-2300.pdf)

Since these devices are high-drain devices by nature, Garmin likely designed around the characteristics of a NiMH cell, which I believe shouldn't be discharged below about 1.1V (someone please correct me here if my info is incorrect).  They might even stop at 1.15V just for safety, since over discharging those cells damages them .  So, of course the battery life for alkalines will be artificially reduced by this.  Like Dave pointed out, one needs to know the cutout threshold of the device. 

NiMH also have about 1/4 the internal resistance of an alkaline, which helps prop up the voltage during current draw spikes. 

So, in such an isolated instance, the Batteriser might actually "help," I just doubt the 5X claim.  I'd actually go through the effort and go by REI and see if they'd let me test a device, but I doubt it will matter.  Batteroo will just probe another helpless toy animal's nether-regions and make a new video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on August 10, 2015, 07:01:44 am

I am not sure that the Garmin is a valid use case anyway. The backlit display is forced on permanently and the unit is inside, out of GPS reception, so it will be permanently searching.

Regarding the Apple wireless keyboard, I gave up using mine because it went flat so quickly, a matter of a few weeks. I am minded to take a look at what the draw is, I suspect that it maintains a semi permanent bluetooth connection when the Mac it's paired with is in standby so it can power it up from the keyboard. Irrespective, I did once take a look at the unloaded voltage on the supoosed depleted cells and it was still 1.3V, so there may be a design flaw.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on August 10, 2015, 07:54:51 am

Not sure why they built that rig anyway, I'm pretty sure that GPS has an "always on" mode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fulJk3fYxE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fulJk3fYxE)

At 5:40 is a screenshot of the settings menu (in Dutch):

• Display timer always on
• Background color
• Screenshot on
• Battery saving off
• Press to start display calibration

At 3:58 is a screenshot of the battery selection. It even has a specific mode for alkaline.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 10, 2015, 08:08:16 am

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on August 10, 2015, 07:54:51 am

At 3:58 is a screenshot of the battery selection. It even has a specific mode for alkaline.

Which would likely change the battery dropout voltage detection. Batteriser of course don't mention that.
And if the Alkaline setting does indeed have a lower low battery cutout voltage, then their testing is either embaressingly flawed, or deliberately deceptive.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 10, 2015, 08:22:52 am

I do not see a "batteriser" in the video.
It's a complete scam video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 10, 2015, 08:24:20 am

http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/Dakota_OM_EN.pdf#page8 (http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/Dakota_OM_EN.pdf#page8)

 :palm: OK, so on page two of the manual, we find the battery type setting. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 10, 2015, 10:18:28 am

Quote from: Galenbo on August 10, 2015, 08:22:52 am

I do not see a "batteriser" in the video.
It's a complete scam video.

Try looking at 1:15...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 10, 2015, 10:20:47 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 10, 2015, 08:24:20 am

:palm: OK, so on page two of the manual, we find the battery type setting.

To not mention that in the video is truly  :palm: worthy indeed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 10, 2015, 10:25:12 am

Also, over 17,000 views in 2 days. My videos barely get that many and I've got over a quarter of a million subscribers. Who the hell is viewing this?
If I didn't know any better I'd say there is some bot racking views on their videos...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 10, 2015, 10:26:22 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 10, 2015, 10:25:12 am

Also, over 17,000 views in 2 days. My videos barely get that many and I've got over a quarter of a million subscribers. Who the hell is viewing this?

That's what that robot finger is for...  ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 10, 2015, 08:02:34 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 10, 2015, 10:25:12 am

Also, over 17,000 views in 2 days. My videos barely get that many and I've got over a quarter of a million subscribers. Who the hell is viewing this?

17,000 of your 250,000 subscribers? :)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 11, 2015, 09:32:11 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 10, 2015, 10:18:28 am

Quote from: Galenbo on August 10, 2015, 08:22:52 am

I do not see a "batteriser" in the video.
It's a complete scam video.

Try looking at 1:15...

At 1:20 I see some 3D printed cover above the batteries.
But it isn't a batteriser, because that product still doesn't exist.

They could have used a breadboard with the "batteriser" circuitry, to be miniaturised.
But they didn't.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 11, 2015, 09:34:49 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 10, 2015, 10:25:12 am

... over 17,000 views in 2 days...Who the hell is viewing this?...

There are many politicians, store distributors and liberal arts students in the world.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 11, 2015, 09:51:56 am

Quote from: Galenbo on August 11, 2015, 09:32:11 am

At 1:20 I see some 3D printed cover above the batteries.
But it isn't a batteriser, because that product still doesn't exist.

They could have used a breadboard with the "batteriser" circuitry, to be miniaturised.
But they didn't.

I think they have working prototypes?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 11, 2015, 10:17:38 am

Quote from: McBryce on August 10, 2015, 08:02:34 pm

17,000 of your 250,000 subscribers? :)

They wish. Nope, it's something else, and I can see no mechanism were they can get that many views (with youtube counter lag) in so few days. Something smells fishy.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 11, 2015, 10:20:08 am

What if the video wasn't public and they had some service clicking it all the time?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on August 11, 2015, 10:43:31 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 11, 2015, 10:17:38 am

Quote from: McBryce on August 10, 2015, 08:02:34 pm

17,000 of your 250,000 subscribers? :)

They wish. Nope, it's something else, and I can see no mechanism were they can get that many views (with youtube counter lag) in so few days. Something smells fishy.

Wasn't that channel owned by the guy who offered this:
https://nl.fiverr.com/smartit69/create-30-high-quality-social-bookmarking-backlinks-from-pr10-to-6

Wouldn't surprise me if he uses sites like MTurk or maybe even a botnet to generate hits.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 11, 2015, 11:18:50 pm

I left a comment on the GPS video asking what battery mode they had selected. They deleted my comment.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 11, 2015, 11:20:18 pm

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on August 11, 2015, 10:43:31 am

Wasn't that channel owned by the guy who offered this:
https://nl.fiverr.com/smartit69/create-30-high-quality-social-bookmarking-backlinks-from-pr10-to-6

Don't know. Can anyone find out who owns that channel?
They claim to be "not affiliated" with Batteriser, yet have all their official videos and often talk in the first person as if it is them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 12, 2015, 12:00:12 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 11, 2015, 11:18:50 pm

I left a comment on the GPS video asking what battery mode they had selected. They deleted my comment.

Why did they deleted it? :P :P :P

I was under the impression that after the fusion of G+ and YT, someone couldn't delete coments?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on August 12, 2015, 03:10:42 am

We all need to hit the comments with questions asking what battery mode they selected.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 12, 2015, 03:42:32 am

Quote from: Smokey on August 12, 2015, 03:10:42 am

We all need to hit the comments with questions asking what battery mode they selected.

Did that days ago, they didn't reply.

Better to write to Indiegogo. Their terms of service forbid impossible devices and 'scams'.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 12, 2015, 06:38:27 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 12, 2015, 12:00:12 am

I was under the impression that after the fusion of G+ and YT, someone couldn't delete coments?

Nope, a youtube owner can still delete any comment they like.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 12, 2015, 06:39:07 am

Coming soon:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CML1viLWwAAxxTi.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pickle9000 on August 12, 2015, 06:46:48 am

The monkey is awesome. That could be the new lab mascot.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikron on August 12, 2015, 07:18:34 am

They really should consider renaming the product:
Borgerizer - internal resistance is futile

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on August 12, 2015, 07:35:46 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 12, 2015, 06:39:07 am

Coming soon:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CML1viLWwAAxxTi.jpg)

 :-DD
Funny as...
Love that, thanks Dave...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 12, 2015, 07:36:15 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 12, 2015, 06:39:07 am

Coming soon:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CML1viLWwAAxxTi.jpg)

:-DD :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 12, 2015, 07:51:57 am

I can see my comment, but only when logged in. It got deleted?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 12, 2015, 08:02:30 am

Ah... OK. They are not going to publish it I guess. It was about the battery setting.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 12, 2015, 08:04:48 am

Quote from: datumplane on August 12, 2015, 07:57:31 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 12, 2015, 07:51:57 am

I can see my comment, but only when logged in. It got deleted?

AFAIR that happens when a comment is held in moderation queue.

Ahh, that's what happened to my comment previously as well!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 12, 2015, 09:03:34 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 11, 2015, 09:51:56 am

I think they have working prototypes?

Alexander.

Where do they state that? But even if they state it, I don't believe it. The necessary miniaturation for fitting in enclosures requires a 10000-run batch.

They may have a "working schematic" but it isn't documented and I don't see it. All I see is they have a 3D printed or otherwise CNC machined "cover" witch cannot contain the working schematic at this time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 12, 2015, 09:09:08 am

It says so to the article bellow.

https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html (https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 12, 2015, 09:24:00 am

That monkey looks like he's enjoying that waaaay too much! :D

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 12, 2015, 09:32:54 am

From Dave's new tear down video.

(http://i.imgur.com/bIS3Xjf.jpg)

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on August 12, 2015, 11:28:05 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 12, 2015, 09:32:54 am

From Dave's new tear down video.

(http://i.imgur.com/bIS3Xjf.jpg)

Alexander.

The Butterizer?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 12, 2015, 11:45:48 am

Oh! Someone must buy butteriser.com and post all Dave's videos about batteriser!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 12, 2015, 11:53:00 am

Quote from: dcac on August 12, 2015, 11:28:05 am

The Butterizer?

 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 12, 2015, 02:42:48 pm

The person running the "Official Fan Page" Batteroo youtube channel just made a threat against a commenter  :--
On this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A8ATtlEWeg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A8ATtlEWeg)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=164968;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 12, 2015, 03:47:19 pm

 :-- :-- :-- :--

Dave, as I mentioned to the other thread. Can they "attack" you for using parts of their video?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 12, 2015, 04:00:50 pm

Quote from: firewalker on August 12, 2015, 03:47:19 pm

Dave, as I mentioned to the other thread. Can they "attack" you for using parts of their video?

Who cares?  :-//

What's the worst that could happen? A DMCA takedown???  More publicity for Dave!  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 12, 2015, 04:15:57 pm

Quote from: firewalker on August 12, 2015, 03:47:19 pm

:-- :-- :-- :--

Dave, as I mentioned to the other thread. Can they "attack" you for using parts of their video?

Alexander.

It depends on the legal venue.  If it's the US, Dave quite likely falls under the category of a journalist, in which case it's "fair use." 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 12, 2015, 04:22:57 pm

Quote from: firewalker on August 12, 2015, 03:47:19 pm

Dave, as I mentioned to the other thread. Can they "attack" you for using parts of their video?

I guess Dave is protected by Freedom of speech and "fair use". But if they hire a lawyer, it could be still a hassle for Dave. Looks like the Batteriser company has quite some money, because they can do all these expensive videos. But they live in USA and international lawsuits are very expensive, so they won't do anything.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: flextard on August 12, 2015, 06:34:50 pm

Yes, I saw the threat too!

Ridiculous!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 12, 2015, 06:44:44 pm

This "threat" may merely be the doing of a devoted minion rather than a message from Dr. Bob himself. Still distasteful, but likely not credible.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: flextard on August 12, 2015, 07:23:46 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 12, 2015, 06:44:44 pm

This "threat" may merely be the doing of a devoted minion rather than a message from Dr. Bob himself. Still distasteful, but likely not credible.

Sure

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 12, 2015, 07:31:23 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 12, 2015, 06:44:44 pm

This "threat" may merely be the doing of a devoted minion rather than a message from Dr. Bob himself. Still distasteful, but likely not credible.

The Youtube "fan page" is obiviously created by the company itself, see the professional "fan" videos. So they are responsible for what the channel owner writes, or at least approve it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 12, 2015, 07:50:20 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on August 12, 2015, 07:31:23 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 12, 2015, 06:44:44 pm

This "threat" may merely be the doing of a devoted minion rather than a message from Dr. Bob himself. Still distasteful, but likely not credible.

The Youtube "fan page" is obiviously created by the company itself, see the professional "fan" videos. So they are responsible for what the channel owner writes, or at least approve it.

As goofy as they are and as silly as their response to Dave was, leveling a threat like that seems off-base for them. I stand ready to be proven wrong, however. I often am when it comes to matters of human nature.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on August 12, 2015, 10:40:36 pm

Just a heads-up on SYYNERGY7 (the poster of the most rcent 'support video')...

Google the handle SYYNERGY7, and you'll be impressed with this person's background and interests.
I won't run the full list here, as it is too expansive, but I'd guess he knows even less about battery chemistry than he does about Cat Flu or AIDS

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 12, 2015, 11:37:02 pm

Quote from: firewalker on August 12, 2015, 03:47:19 pm

Dave, as I mentioned to the other thread. Can they "attack" you for using parts of their video?

Not successfully, no.
My use of their video falls correctly under the Fair Use clause on Youtube for the purposes of review and critique.
Especially so given that I am essentially a journalist and media blogger.
They also didn't complain about my first video. Indeed they essentially "approved it" by responding with this follow-up video attempting to answer my criticism.
I'm sure they would rather my videos and other criticism on other blogs does not exist, but there is nothing they can do about it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 12, 2015, 11:47:06 pm

Comment about them using approved comments.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=165012;image)

So they have time to read the comments to find them "lovely", but not enough time to actually approve them. Yeah, right  ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on August 13, 2015, 04:29:20 am

I see Dave's comment about battery mode on the GPS video, who knows how long it'll stay up though.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=165042)

That video has not enough downvotes yet... keep on :--'ing it!

In looking through the comments I found this "supporter" (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU7M_5IlPBmWBtln3EN0vrA) who looks like another marketroid bot.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 14, 2015, 04:51:12 am

An EDN article calling out Batterisers claims.
http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440136/The-Batteriser--scam-or-savior- (http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440136/The-Batteriser--scam-or-savior-)

Quote

At the end of the day, although I commend Batteroo on its miniaturization achievement, I struggle to find a strong commercialization market opportunity for it. And attempting to rationalize early-adopter's investments in your company by means of dubious-at-best claims is penny-wise, pound-foolish.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 14, 2015, 10:02:41 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 14, 2015, 04:51:12 am

An EDN article calling out Batterisers claims.
http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440136/The-Batteriser--scam-or-savior- (http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440136/The-Batteriser--scam-or-savior-)

Very well written article, compact and informative, as most of the time at EDN. And your new official job title (I'm sure it would look nice on a business card) : debunker Dave Jones ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on August 14, 2015, 10:04:05 pm

Hi group,

I have presented a fairly detailed analysis, using LTspice, of the combination of Alkaline batteries and a battery_booster in this thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/modeling-an-alkaline-battery-in-ltspice/msg731360/#msg731360 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/modeling-an-alkaline-battery-in-ltspice/msg731360/#msg731360)

Enjoy !!

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on August 15, 2015, 01:19:31 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 11, 2015, 10:17:38 am

Quote from: McBryce on August 10, 2015, 08:02:34 pm

17,000 of your 250,000 subscribers? :)

They wish. Nope, it's something else, and I can see no mechanism were they can get that many views (with youtube counter lag) in so few days. Something smells fishy.

Do you have any means of tracking how many users click on the links in your video description? Could it be an idea to try an URL-shortening service that do? Would be very interesting to see exactly how much traffic (and thus roughly views) can be attributed to you.

I only watch these videos through your links, I suspect many of your viewers do.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 15, 2015, 02:02:41 pm

The Youtube Batteroo fan announced a new video:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=165474;image)
Seems a little bit of a weird fan to claim the product of his idol as his own doesn't it?
And who are

Quote

those whose revenue will be reduced

?

And why do they link to the Youtube channel of a fan that is

Quote

not in any way affiliated with Batteriser, or Batteroo Inc.

on their igg campain:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=165476;image)
They seem to have a vimeo channel, but than again, that could well be another fan of course...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: _Andrew_ on August 15, 2015, 03:00:37 pm

With the qualifications that Dr Bob Roohparvar Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering and Mr Frankie Roohparvar M.S. in Electrical Engineering. I don't understand how they have got in to this mess regarding how to measure and determine the remaining usable energy in a battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on August 15, 2015, 04:39:38 pm

Quote from: PeterL on August 15, 2015, 02:02:41 pm

Seems a little bit of a weird fan to claim the product of his idol as his own doesn't it?
And who are

Quote

those whose revenue will be reduced

?

And why do they link to the Youtube channel of a fan that is

Quote

not in any way affiliated with Batteriser, or Batteroo Inc.

on their igg campain:

He is a hired hand that promotes products on social media. That has been established a while back.

As for who are "those"? well, the whole campaign started with a tale of industrial espionage of breaking and entering to steal their tech. Whoever runs the campaign know exactly what they are doing and they are pretty good at human psychology used as a marketing tool.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pickle9000 on August 15, 2015, 05:30:04 pm

Quote from: _Andrew_ on August 15, 2015, 03:00:37 pm

With the qualifications that Dr Bob Roohparvar Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering and Mr Frankie Roohparvar M.S. in Electrical Engineering. I don't understand how they have got in to this mess regarding how to measure and determine the remaining usable energy in a battery.

Inept, probably not. Money related.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 15, 2015, 05:52:04 pm

My questions were meant to be more or less rhetorical, but:

Quote from: miguelvp on August 15, 2015, 04:39:38 pm

He is a hired hand that promotes products on social media. That has been established a while back.

He (Batteriser Batteroo on Youtube) actually explained this himself when asked by someone called EEVblog  ;)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=165542;image)

Quote from: miguelvp on August 15, 2015, 04:39:38 pm

As for who are "those"? well, the whole campaign started with a tale of industrial espionage of breaking and entering to steal their tech. Whoever runs the campaign know exactly what they are doing and they are pretty good at human psychology used as a marketing tool.

Yeah, the fact that PCWorld (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html)) published this 'industrial espionage' story is what bothers me the most anyway. How could a good journalist not have any doubts after this stupid robbery(psst: it was the battery industry!) story? Or this 800% claim?

But who are they trying to fool when they say about the YT channel: "We are not in any way affiliated with Batteriser, or Batteroo Inc. We are simply a fan page.". And why don't they have a YT channel? This just doesn't make sense to me at all.
And also the way they talk on both YT and IGG, to me that looks like they are very affiliated with each other.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on August 15, 2015, 09:19:40 pm

Quote from: PeterL on August 15, 2015, 05:52:04 pm

My questions were meant to be more or less rhetorical, but:

Quote from: miguelvp on August 15, 2015, 04:39:38 pm

He is a hired hand that promotes products on social media. That has been established a while back.

He (Batteriser Batteroo on Youtube) actually explained this himself when asked by someone called EEVblog  ;)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=165542;image)

Ooooo, race card, anyone care to point out how anyone could possibly assert that unless they are grasping at straws of course?

Just when you thought this couldn't get any more desperate.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 16, 2015, 02:07:07 am

Quote from: PeterL on August 09, 2015, 10:57:02 am

So after a little search this product seems to be a Garmin Dakota. ( https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/prod30925.html (https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/prod30925.html) )

With some filtering I got this image from the video:

(http://i.imgur.com/Wvml9oE.jpg)

Looks like a Garmin Approach. The title of the same Vimeo video is "Golf Device" (http://tinyurl.com/qcqmhkm (http://tinyurl.com/qcqmhkm)), so the device might be a Garmin Approach G3: http://tgiblackfriday.com/Costco/Garmin-Approach-G3-Golf-GPS-deal (http://tgiblackfriday.com/Costco/Garmin-Approach-G3-Golf-GPS-deal)

Edit: manual is from 2009, it has a setting for the battery type (page 7) : http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/ApproachG3_OwnersManual.pdf (http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/ApproachG3_OwnersManual.pdf)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on August 16, 2015, 08:39:01 am

Yep, definitely a Garmin Approach, great work seeing that!

Might be a good idea to have a separate thread "Batteriser Claims Debunked" to sort and categorise the information and tests you've all done and found!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 16, 2015, 08:54:29 am

Someone should buy that device and test it.  >:D >:D >:D

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on August 16, 2015, 09:39:20 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 16, 2015, 08:54:29 am

Someone should buy that device and test it.  >:D >:D >:D

Alexander.

14 days return policy on all online purchases in the EU! Test and return, no money lost!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 16, 2015, 11:55:10 pm

For those who want to know who runs the Batteroo "Fan Page", and also how much they have spent developing it so far:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=165779;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fsck on August 17, 2015, 12:05:11 am

how did they get "racist" out of any of this? American has nothing to do with race..

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on August 17, 2015, 12:09:44 am

I looked up the Batteriser's corporate address. It is located next to a Lowe's Home Improvement store in Sunnyvale, CA. This store is located on the sight where Signetics had a corporate address, their FAB and their R&D. How sad is that!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 17, 2015, 12:51:32 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 16, 2015, 11:55:10 pm

For those who want to know who runs the Batteroo "Fan Page", and also how much they have spent developing it so far:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=165779;image)

Batteroo folks,

Spending hundreds of thousands does not justify the making a litany of claims that any reasonable person familiar in the art cannot reproduce.

If these claims were reproducible, I would readily admit so and condemn the device manufacturer for shipping something so wasteful. Instead, what we see is that most manufacturers have excellent battery management practices. If partially depleted batteries are being disposed of, it is a human behavior issue not a device design issue.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mayo2017 on August 17, 2015, 12:57:30 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 16, 2015, 11:55:10 pm

For those who want to know who runs the Batteroo "Fan Page", and also how much they have spent developing it so far:

Dave, and those curious:
I had a conversation with a "fan" who just so happened to have registered on YouTube yesterday, is only subscribed to that Batteriser Bateroo channel, and is ALSO a friend of the inventor's son at the same university... and it was an interesting one. Screencapped it out of the YT alert box since the video comments don't show the whole string.

This is... probably the most relevant, but also the most family-friendly bit.
(http://i.imgur.com/eX1ukQz.png)

Imgur link to the full conversation in the interest of not taking up the entire thread with a picture.
STRONG language warning: http://i.imgur.com/jcvYNq3.png (http://i.imgur.com/jcvYNq3.png)

Edit: Were more replies since I took those screencaps, but they're just more vulgar posturing about "I'm just defending my free speech and a company I believe in" and such.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fsck on August 17, 2015, 01:02:07 am

the use of "your" instead of "you're" is kind of offensive

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Alexander.e.hiller on August 17, 2015, 01:28:42 am

Brad Jones fought with me as well! Sounds a lot like your conversation with him. I attached it below (please excuse the poor photo-shopping, I was using paint!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mayo2017 on August 17, 2015, 01:34:28 am

Quote from: Alexander.e.hiller on August 17, 2015, 01:28:42 am

Brad Jones fought with me as well!

By our powers combined, we... really attracted the attention of a serious nutcase.

I can't wait to make a screencap compilation of this whole debacle we got ourselves into.
He'll use his Visual Basic GUI Interface to track down our IP addresses. :popcorn:
(http://i.imgur.com/kXHc64B.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hugoneus on August 17, 2015, 01:55:06 am

This is clearly just a kid, doesn't know any better nor is he an expert in any meaningful way. I would just leave him alone and focus on understanding what can and can't be done with state-of-the-art DC-DC converters. It looks like about 5% to 10% increased battery life is possible in some circumstances. If that was their claim, that would have been Ok. But 800% is beyond ridiculous.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mayo2017 on August 17, 2015, 01:57:56 am

Quote from: Hugoneus on August 17, 2015, 01:55:06 am

This is clearly just a kid, doesn't know any better nor is he an expert in any meaningful way. I would just leave him alone and focus on understanding what can and can't be done with state-of-the-art DC-DC converters. It looks like about 5% to 10% increased battery life is possible in some circumstances. If that was their claim, that would have been Ok. But 800% is beyond ridiculous.

Sorry, but I'm not of the opinion that people involved with scams taking 6 figures and up out of people who don't know better should be left alone in any respect.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hugoneus on August 17, 2015, 02:21:47 am

Quote from: Mayo2017 on August 17, 2015, 01:57:56 am

Quote from: Hugoneus on August 17, 2015, 01:55:06 am

This is clearly just a kid, doesn't know any better nor is he an expert in any meaningful way. I would just leave him alone and focus on understanding what can and can't be done with state-of-the-art DC-DC converters. It looks like about 5% to 10% increased battery life is possible in some circumstances. If that was their claim, that would have been Ok. But 800% is beyond ridiculous.

Sorry, but I'm not of the opinion that people involved with scams taking 6 figures and up out of people who don't know better should be left alone in any respect.

This kid is not involved. He is just a friend of the son of the "inventor". He is excited about the idea of working in this company and he has invested a lot of emotion and pride in it. He is otherwise not involved.

The focus should be in representing the truth to the public and addressing those who actually are making the claims.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 17, 2015, 03:06:03 am

Quote from: Hugoneus on August 17, 2015, 02:21:47 am

Quote from: Mayo2017 on August 17, 2015, 01:57:56 am

Quote from: Hugoneus on August 17, 2015, 01:55:06 am

This is clearly just a kid, doesn't know any better nor is he an expert in any meaningful way. I would just leave him alone and focus on understanding what can and can't be done with state-of-the-art DC-DC converters. It looks like about 5% to 10% increased battery life is possible in some circumstances. If that was their claim, that would have been Ok. But 800% is beyond ridiculous.

Sorry, but I'm not of the opinion that people involved with scams taking 6 figures and up out of people who don't know better should be left alone in any respect.

This kid is not involved. He is just a friend of the son of the "inventor". He is excited about the idea of working in this company and he has invested a lot of emotion and pride in it. He is otherwise not involved.

The focus should be in representing the truth to the public and addressing those who actually are making the claims.

Yup.  Please, just leave the kids alone.  They are defending their parents and friends' parents.  That's natural and understandable.  I am certain that this young man truly believes in this product. 

I have addressed Bob directly in these posts because it is acutely obvious that he is reading them and responding on the Batteroo and Indiegogo sites.  Still, we must be respectful.  I apologize if my lighthearted jabs precipitated any decline in behavior into personal attacks.

So, please oh please, do not tussle with their friends or family members!  It's just not right.  Let's elevate the discussion.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 17, 2015, 04:14:11 am

Quote from: Mayo2017 on August 17, 2015, 12:57:30 am

Imgur link to the full conversation in the interest of not taking up the entire thread with a picture.
STRONG language warning: http://i.imgur.com/jcvYNq3.png (http://i.imgur.com/jcvYNq3.png)
Edit: Were more replies since I took those screencaps, but they're just more vulgar posturing about "I'm just defending my free speech and a company I believe in" and such.

Mr Roohparvar and his company need to seriously disassociate themselves with these people who have now stepped it up to what amounts to possibly criminal threats of violence, however childish they may be. This "fan page" and their followers, all who by their own admission have said they have a close relationship to Batteroo, are bringing serious disrepute to their company image. Batteriser are allowing this "fan page" to talk in the first person as if they are them. If they have any sense at all they will put an end to this immediately.
I can't believe the former director of K-Mark Warren Flick who is their "Chief Strategy Officer" is letting this debarcle continue, let alone Mr Roohparvar and his brother.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 17, 2015, 04:34:30 am

This "Brad Jones" character claming to be affiliated with Batteriser / Batteroo or their founders sounds nothing more than a teenage script kiddie. He's rather amusing actually -- I love the bit about "tracing IP addresses"  :-DD Pure gold. Oooh how I'd love if he could *actually* do as he says, he'd have a rude shock.

This whole Batteriser thing has moved from being a scam right through idiotic to downright entertaining. Someone should make a YouTube comedy series based on their original videos.

*Queue Benny Hill music*

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 17, 2015, 06:55:50 am

RE: Spending "hundreds of thousands on patents and lawyers"

And then they only needed $30,000 more from IndieGoGo to get it going?  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 17, 2015, 07:09:16 am

Did anyone ordered from the campaign?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 17, 2015, 08:10:28 am

Check out the blog thing on their Youtube channel!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A)

Quote

"Pls stand by we are in a process of releasing a video with the technical explanation for all engineers on how Batteriser works, while at first glance, it seems implausible, I am sure that real genuine engineers will appreciate our whiteboard technical discussions along with simulation, data matching battery companies spec sheets, in conjunction with device data. Of course, those whose revenue will be reduced by our technology will do everything to divert attention"

I wonder if it will be released before or after the end of their IndieGoGo campaign.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 17, 2015, 11:17:54 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 17, 2015, 08:10:28 am

Check out the blog thing on their Youtube channel!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A)

Quote

"Pls stand by we are in a process of releasing a video with the technical explanation for all engineers on how Batteriser works, while at first glance, it seems implausible, I am sure that real genuine engineers will appreciate our whiteboard technical discussions along with simulation, data matching battery companies spec sheets, in conjunction with device data. Of course, those whose revenue will be reduced by our technology will do everything to divert attention"

I wonder if it will be released before or after the end of their IndieGoGo campaign.  :popcorn:

I particularly love their use of the English language. So professional!  :palm:

What I find funny is why their "engineers" need to explain it to other (actual) engineers?  :-//

Sounds like Batteriser / Batteroo are in serious damage control. They might actually realise themselves if their "real genuine engineers" conduct their "whiteboard technical discussions", simulations and "data matching" correctly, that their product is an epic fail.

I'm looking forward to the next instalment of 'Funniest Home Videos'...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rs20 on August 17, 2015, 11:52:11 pm

(https://rs20-static.firebaseapp.com/pano/batteriser.png)

EDIT: Fixed broken image link.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 18, 2015, 01:09:56 am

Quote from: Halcyon on August 17, 2015, 04:34:30 am

This "Brad Jones" character claming to be affiliated with Batteriser / Batteroo or their founders sounds nothing more than a teenage script kiddie.

And he has multiple accounts.
He is now spamming my channel with comments like this.
My latest video had the exact same comment from both "Brad Jones" and "David Parish". What an idiot.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=165963;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on August 18, 2015, 01:22:39 am

I don't think this fellow is at all normal and is now attacking Arlens discussion page.

Arlens Youtube Page.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLfzK6R4o8yOQ7HY_VpFJfA/discussion (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLfzK6R4o8yOQ7HY_VpFJfA/discussion)

Some very nasty stuff.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/batteriser-expand-the-battery-life-of-disposable-batteries-by-800!/msg733239/#msg733239 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/batteriser-expand-the-battery-life-of-disposable-batteries-by-800!/msg733239/#msg733239)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=165973;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mayo2017 on August 18, 2015, 02:54:01 am

It's just fun to peek around at some of the "commenters" on pretty much all of their videos. There's an incredibly high incidence of 1-3 word positive comments from accounts less than a couple months old.  :bullshit:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 18, 2015, 03:09:21 am

Quote from: Mayo2017 on August 18, 2015, 02:54:01 am

It's just fun to peek around at some of the "commenters" on pretty much all of their videos. There's an incredibly high incidence of 1-3 word positive comments from accounts less than a couple months old.  :bullshit:

Ill do you one better:

(http://www.gifbin.com/bin/052009/1242749315_bullshit_amplifier-detector.gif)

 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 18, 2015, 05:40:07 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on August 18, 2015, 01:22:39 am

I don't think this fellow is at all normal and is now attacking Arlens discussion page.

Yup, certified whacko.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on August 18, 2015, 05:41:37 am

:o :wtf: they're clearly doing that because they've run out of technical arguments and are trying to divert attention away from it. Point that out to them if you feel like replying, and don't respond with the same sort of insults they're using.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 18, 2015, 05:45:55 am

At this point, it will be interesting to just sit and wait.  The Indiegogo page went totally silent.  Something is brewing. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 18, 2015, 07:16:02 am

Dr Bob posted this in the Indiegogo comments:

Quote

Thank you very much for sharing the posting with us..
Also with regards to your great suggestion, we are working on creating a well articulated video to show the reason why and how our technology works.
There are independent sources that are collecting data on thrown away battery in recycling center shows significant batteries have more than 80% energy left in them when they are throw away. By the way, these are well designed devices by very talented engineers.

Desperately trying to cling to that report (that they almost certainly found on here when someone posted it) to prove their 80% energy wastage figure.
And how can they possibly correlate which batteries were thrown away at the battery cutout voltage, and which were just tossed away for other reason. Let alone what device they went into that he could make the claim "these are well designed devices by very talented engineers"  :palm:
More demonstrable bullshit.
They can't of course, after 5 years of development of this thing actually provide their own data to back up their 80% figure.
It gets more embarrassing the more they try and struggle to justify their claims.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 18, 2015, 09:14:16 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 12, 2015, 09:09:08 am

Quote from: Galenbo on August 12, 2015, 09:03:34 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 11, 2015, 09:51:56 am

I think they have working prototypes?

Alexander.

Where do they state that? But even if they state it, I don't believe it. The necessary miniaturation for fitting in enclosures requires a 10000-run batch.

They may have a "working schematic" but it isn't documented and I don't see it. All I see is they have a 3D printed or otherwise CNC machined "cover" witch cannot contain the working schematic at this time.

It says so to the article bellow.

https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html (https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html)

There were other articles before. Based on the lies in it, the propability they stated something right now, approaches zero.

There is no product. There are renderings, and a print case. And maybe a breadboard proto that works on 1% of the devices, with the condition that the battery type is wrongly set.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 18, 2015, 09:46:51 am

Quote from: Galenbo on August 18, 2015, 09:14:16 am

There were other articles before. Based on the lies in it, the propability they stated something right now, approaches zero.
There is no product. There are renderings, and a print case. And maybe a breadboard proto that works on 1% of the devices, with the condition that the battery type is wrongly set.

Why do you keep saying this?
It is demonstrably true that the product exists. Reputable (rubbish batteriser articles aside) journalists have seen it working. I've spoken to one directly who has seen it.
There are also real prototype photos posted.
How well it works is another matter, but it does exist.
Remember, these guys clearly have big money behind them, and have been working on it for 5 years, and they have the technical credentials to pull it off physically.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 18, 2015, 12:03:25 pm

Haven't seen this business article before on Batteroo:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/batteroo-advisory-board-draws-from-more-than-100-years-of-power-management-electrical-system-product-development-success-2015-06-10 (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/batteroo-advisory-board-draws-from-more-than-100-years-of-power-management-electrical-system-product-development-success-2015-06-10)

Quote

"tested and proven"
"real and proven"

In what universe has it been "proven"? Given their obvious embarrassing public backtracking on many things since their claims have been called out, you gotta wonder just who did the "proving", and where that proof is?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 18, 2015, 12:24:33 pm

To quote Dave himself:

https://youtu.be/6a-jcaTn170?t=1m15s

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Arlen Moulton2 on August 18, 2015, 06:47:34 pm

I got so much stick for doing a video like this, people are morons
 |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 18, 2015, 07:22:32 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2015, 09:46:51 am

Quote from: Galenbo on August 18, 2015, 09:14:16 am

There were other articles before. Based on the lies in it, the propability they stated something right now, approaches zero.
There is no product. There are renderings, and a print case. And maybe a breadboard proto that works on 1% of the devices, with the condition that the battery type is wrongly set.

Why do you keep saying this?
It is demonstrably true that the product exists. Reputable (rubbish batteriser articles aside) journalists have seen it working. I've spoken to one directly who has seen it.
There are also real prototype photos posted.
How well it works is another matter, but it does exist.
Remember, these guys clearly have big money behind them, and have been working on it for 5 years, and they have the technical credentials to pull it off physically.

I keep saying it because there are no specs to be found. I mean, mature, real specs. Most crap on Aliexpress has better documentation.
There is no closeup, just shady pictures. Curious about how they did the miniaturisation in those 5 years.
For what the journalist say or think, I couldn't care less. Are they really that kind of guys that can't be fooled with a over-unit machine? It would be the first one I see.

The only thing that could make me think that it really exists, is the time it will be demonstrated by a (not on the payroll) user on youtube, or by you.
How it will perform, we already know that, no one's curious about that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 18, 2015, 07:25:38 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2015, 12:03:25 pm

Haven't seen this business article before on Batteroo:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/batteroo-advisory-board-draws-from-more-than-100-years-of-power-management-electrical-system-product-development-success-2015-06-10 (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/batteroo-advisory-board-draws-from-more-than-100-years-of-power-management-electrical-system-product-development-success-2015-06-10)

Quote

"tested and proven"
"real and proven"

In what universe has it been "proven"? Given their obvious embarrassing public backtracking on many things since their claims have been called out, you gotta wonder just who did the "proving", and where that proof is?

Time to pull their PhD and other grades in question. No serious one with some science/tech degree uses "proof" the way they do.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 18, 2015, 07:26:18 pm

They say the inventor is going to do a live stream soon. Let the tough questioning begin.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 18, 2015, 07:27:44 pm

I just heard a story on the web that what these guys are really after is to license the technology in Batteriser to Tesla motors. It will let their cars drive 8x further.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 18, 2015, 07:30:44 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 18, 2015, 07:27:44 pm

I just heard a story on the web that what these guys are really after is to license the technology in Batteriser to Tesla motors. It will let their cars drive 8x further.

And for the people that interprete 800% more as 9x, there's a bonus :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 18, 2015, 07:50:14 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on August 18, 2015, 07:26:18 pm

They say the inventor is going to do a live stream soon. Let the tough questioning begin.

Reference?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 18, 2015, 07:52:39 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 18, 2015, 07:27:44 pm

I just heard a story on the web that what these guys are really after is to license the technology in Batteriser to Tesla motors. It will let their cars drive 8x further.

?? Most commercial hybrid electric vehicles work on a charge/discharge cycle that only use a tiny fraction of the batteries capacity, somewhere between 100% and 85% fully charged, they delibrately don't get even close to deep discharging the batteries. I don't know the Tesla system, but I'm pretty sure that they have also heavily researched exactly what the "sweet spot" is for their system. As well as that, electric vehicles need AC because they usually use 3 phase AC motors, so there's an inverter in there converting the voltage to AC. A booster would be of no use to a HEV / EV at all.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 18, 2015, 07:58:32 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 18, 2015, 07:50:14 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on August 18, 2015, 07:26:18 pm

They say the inventor is going to do a live stream soon. Let the tough questioning begin.

Reference?

Brad Jones@ 3:20 PM


 1
Reply
 
+Ccs4646 The inventor will be going live stream after the release of the new video. This will be your opportunity to ask all the tough questions live, and "disprove" the product! I will not remember to come find you for the live stream, but if you subscribe to +Batteriser Batteroo ONLY FOR ONE WEEK (This is not an attempt to increase their subscribers, they will be doing all the things you guys want), you will be updated and can let your army of Dave fans know about it.
They are doing this for the skeptics and engineers, it was not planned. It was due to high request. +EEVblog can also ask tough questions and "disprove" the batteriser live.

Let's draw as big of a crowd as possible to this debate between Batteroo Inc and Dave Jones at +EEVblog

Edit: I will not be doing any live debate, as I am not the inventor. This will be a chance for the best from +EEVblog vs the best from Batteroo Inc. I am not up on that level to be able to handle all the tough questions, yet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 18, 2015, 08:03:42 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on August 18, 2015, 07:58:32 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 18, 2015, 07:50:14 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on August 18, 2015, 07:26:18 pm

They say the inventor is going to do a live stream soon. Let the tough questioning begin.

Reference?

Brad Jones@ 3:20 PM


 1
Reply
 
+Ccs4646 The inventor will be going live stream after the release of the new video. This will be your opportunity to ask all the tough questions live, and "disprove" the product! I will not remember to come find you for the live stream, but if you subscribe to +Batteriser Batteroo ONLY FOR ONE WEEK (This is not an attempt to increase their subscribers, they will be doing all the things you guys want), you will be updated and can let your army of Dave fans know about it.
They are doing this for the skeptics and engineers, it was not planned. It was due to high request. +EEVblog can also ask tough questions and "disprove" the batteriser live.

Let's draw as big of a crowd as possible to this debate between Batteroo Inc and Dave Jones at +EEVblog

Edit: I will not be doing any live debate, as I am not the inventor. This will be a chance for the best from +EEVblog vs the best from Batteroo Inc. I am not up on that level to be able to handle all the tough questions, yet.

Isn't Brad the guy that was leveling the threats?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 18, 2015, 08:08:07 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 18, 2015, 08:03:42 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on August 18, 2015, 07:58:32 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 18, 2015, 07:50:14 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on August 18, 2015, 07:26:18 pm

They say the inventor is going to do a live stream soon. Let the tough questioning begin.

Reference?

Brad Jones@ 3:20 PM


 1
Reply
 
+Ccs4646 The inventor will be going live stream after the release of the new video. This will be your opportunity to ask all the tough questions live, and "disprove" the product! I will not remember to come find you for the live stream, but if you subscribe to +Batteriser Batteroo ONLY FOR ONE WEEK (This is not an attempt to increase their subscribers, they will be doing all the things you guys want), you will be updated and can let your army of Dave fans know about it.
They are doing this for the skeptics and engineers, it was not planned. It was due to high request. +EEVblog can also ask tough questions and "disprove" the batteriser live.

Let's draw as big of a crowd as possible to this debate between Batteroo Inc and Dave Jones at +EEVblog

Edit: I will not be doing any live debate, as I am not the inventor. This will be a chance for the best from +EEVblog vs the best from Batteroo Inc. I am not up on that level to be able to handle all the tough questions, yet.

Isn't Brad the guy that was leveling the threats?

Indeed he was. To me questioning that he says:
Brad Jones @ 3:40 PM


 1
Reply
 
+Ccs4646 It has been rough  for the past few weeks with a lot of hate mail for the fan page community and myself. I am only human and make mistakes when emotional. I apologize for any hostility. 
Bests?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 18, 2015, 08:15:01 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on August 18, 2015, 07:58:32 pm

+Ccs4646 The inventor will be going live stream after the release of the new video.

So ... that's definitely AFTER the IndieGoGo campaign has finished, right?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on August 18, 2015, 08:21:08 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on August 18, 2015, 07:58:32 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 18, 2015, 07:50:14 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on August 18, 2015, 07:26:18 pm

They say the inventor is going to do a live stream soon. Let the tough questioning begin.

Reference?

Brad Jones@ 3:20 PM


 1
Reply
 
+Ccs4646 The inventor will be going live stream after the release of the new video. This will be your opportunity to ask all the tough questions live, and "disprove" the product! I will not remember to come find you for the live stream, but if you subscribe to +Batteriser Batteroo ONLY FOR ONE WEEK (This is not an attempt to increase their subscribers, they will be doing all the things you guys want), you will be updated and can let your army of Dave fans know about it.
They are doing this for the skeptics and engineers, it was not planned. It was due to high request. +EEVblog can also ask tough questions and "disprove" the batteriser live.

Let's draw as big of a crowd as possible to this debate between Batteroo Inc and Dave Jones at +EEVblog

Edit: I will not be doing any live debate, as I am not the inventor. This will be a chance for the best from +EEVblog vs the best from Batteroo Inc. I am not up on that level to be able to handle all the tough questions, yet.

remember The Bill Nye-Ken Ham debate? or Chomsky-some other idiot one? its always a TARP, all it does it legitimises the retards pretending they are on the level playing field. It reframes the situation from 'look at that idiot' to 'oh, its a matter of opinion'.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 18, 2015, 08:38:40 pm

So, this this will all make so much more sense in a one-sided ask-me any question I feel like answering format?!

They have two websites, a highly professional PR firm, the remains of likely $1M in VC funding, and it's just too difficult to show the arithmetic and EE100 and 200 series calculations that make their claims plausible?  A three page PDF should be all it takes to make their case. 

...oh, that's right. There isn't one.  :palm:

Don't take the bait, folks.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 18, 2015, 08:59:19 pm

"Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies"

Isn't that what not allowing comments on their videos, without approval, is all about?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 18, 2015, 10:31:48 pm

(http://www.globalwealthprotection.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/chief-wiggum-300x225.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 18, 2015, 11:44:58 pm

Quote from: Arlen Moulton2 on August 18, 2015, 06:47:34 pm

I got so much stick for doing a video like this, people are morons
 |O

You did good Arlen, don't worry about it.
Yes people are morons, and some people get very angry at the truth, they can't handle it.
Keep it up, you are the one creating content, they are the ones making hot air. You are the winner.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 18, 2015, 11:47:20 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on August 18, 2015, 07:22:32 pm

I keep saying it because there are no specs to be found. I mean, mature, real specs. Most crap on Aliexpress has better documentation.

The specs are a different thing entirely to the actual product being a real physical thing.
There is no doubt the physical prototypes exist and they work as a basic boost converter.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 18, 2015, 11:52:40 pm

Quote from: Rasz on August 18, 2015, 08:21:08 pm

remember The Bill Nye-Ken Ham debate? or Chomsky-some other idiot one? its always a TARP, all it does it legitimises the retards pretending they are on the level playing field. It reframes the situation from 'look at that idiot' to 'oh, its a matter of opinion'.

Yep, I agree.
I wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole.
It's simple, they have made extraordinary claims, they can put up a video providing their extraordinary evidence.
Engineers are happy to be proven wrong just show us the data and the proof.
It speaks volumes that Batteriser, after 5 years of development and huge money invested, have not been able to show one scrap of proof their claims are real that any decent engineer will see and go "Oh, yeah, its really does work as claimed".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 19, 2015, 12:18:27 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2015, 11:52:40 pm

Quote from: Rasz on August 18, 2015, 08:21:08 pm

remember The Bill Nye-Ken Ham debate? or Chomsky-some other idiot one? its always a TARP, all it does it legitimises the retards pretending they are on the level playing field. It reframes the situation from 'look at that idiot' to 'oh, its a matter of opinion'.

Yep, I agree.
I wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole.
It's simple, they have made extraordinary claims, they can put up a video providing their extraordinary evidence.
Engineers are happy to be proven wrong just show us the data and the proof.
It speaks volumes that Batteriser, after 5 years of development and huge money invested, have not been able to show one scrap of proof their claims are real that any decent engineer will see and go "Oh, yeah, its really does work as claimed".

My question is, will you ask the tough questions on the live stream? Oh by the way Dave they can't take down your video,
Since your video falls under the Fair Dealing law of Australia for these reasons:
review or criticism
research or study

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 12:24:45 am

Quote from: ccs46 on August 19, 2015, 12:18:27 am

My question is, will you ask the tough questions on the live stream?

I don't know anything about this live stream, and I wouldn't waste my time on it anyway.

Quote

Oh by the way Dave they can't take down your video,
Since your video falls under the Fair Dealing law of Australia for these reasons:
review or criticism
research or study

I know that, they'd be fools to even try, which is why they haven't tried.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 12:27:18 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 12:24:45 am

My question is, will you ask the tough questions on the live stream?

I don't know anything about this live stream, and I wouldn't waste my time on it anyway for the reasons Rasz said. It's like debating a creationist, it's pointless.
They can make fools out of themselves, it seems they don't need my help.
I know some people might find this surprising, but I'm not all that interested in Batteriser apart from mild amusement.
When they put up their new video, it'll be hard to find the enthusiasm to do another reply video to what will almost certainly be more BS.

Quote

Oh by the way Dave they can't take down your video,
Since your video falls under the Fair Dealing law of Australia for these reasons:
review or criticism
research or study

I know that, they'd be fools to even try, which is why they haven't tried.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 19, 2015, 12:36:46 am

A "debate" in which the opposing party controls the venue, the agenda, and the mute button is not a debate.

Please, no one take duh-bait. ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 19, 2015, 12:46:00 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 19, 2015, 12:36:46 am

A "debate" in which the opposing party controls the venue, the agenda, and the mute button is not a debate.

Please, no one take the bait.

I have no intention in watching or even subscribing to their channel. Crap like Batteriser are spinning doesn't deserve views except for the purpose of ridicule.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 12:52:10 am

I just checked on their PSU "debunking" video, 1140 thumbs down  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 19, 2015, 01:02:28 am

I'm on pins and needles waiting for an instructional video showing:

0.9 + 0.1 = 8

Apparently the video production techniques required to suspend mathematics are fairly involved. I thought they'd be done by now.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on August 19, 2015, 01:02:45 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 12:52:10 am

I just checked on their PSU "debunking" video, 1140 thumbs down  :-DD

1,141 now...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on August 19, 2015, 01:03:49 am

A debate? I didn't know the questions in science and engineering depended on debating skills. I thought it was a question of logic and experiment. Silly me.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 01:32:25 am

Quote from: photon on August 19, 2015, 01:03:49 am

A debate? I didn't know the questions in science and engineering depended on debating skills. I thought it was a question of logic and experiment. Silly me.

That's why you'd be foolish to debate them, just like debating creationists. Show us your engineering evidence or don't be surprised when engineers laugh at silly demonstrably wrong claims.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on August 19, 2015, 01:33:07 am

DAVE -
Just curious... have the Batteriser / Batteroo / Roopahvar team tried to contact ypu in any way or fprm since this exploded ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 19, 2015, 01:38:29 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 19, 2015, 01:02:28 am

Apparently the video production techniques required to suspend mathematics are fairly involved. I thought they'd be done by now.

Well maybe they (Finally) realized it's a lost cause and are trying to suspend it as long as possible? I wonder if they are running around with their asses on fire.  :scared:   :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 19, 2015, 01:49:05 am

Quote from: ccs46 on August 19, 2015, 01:38:29 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 19, 2015, 01:02:28 am

Apparently the video production techniques required to suspend mathematics are fairly involved. I thought they'd be done by now.

Well maybe they (Finally) realized it's a lost cause and are trying to suspend it as long as possible? I wonder if they are running around with their asses on fire.  :scared:   :-DD

If someone's tail is on fire, it's because a few angry Korean VC's are chasing them around the office with a flamethrower.

SK Telecom opens the bank account on their client's behalf. You have to wonder if they didn't walk down to the bank yesterday and turn off the spigot.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 02:54:18 am

Quote from: SL4P on August 19, 2015, 01:33:07 am

Just curious... have the Batteriser / Batteroo / Roopahvar team tried to contact ypu in any way or fprm since this exploded ?

Nope, nothing. Not even a message on my videos, or blog post, or the forum.
I think that actually tells a lot.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 02:58:58 am

Quote from: ccs46 on August 19, 2015, 01:38:29 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 19, 2015, 01:02:28 am

Apparently the video production techniques required to suspend mathematics are fairly involved. I thought they'd be done by now.

Well maybe they (Finally) realized it's a lost cause and are trying to suspend it as long as possible?

Their video will no doubt be very polished and again professionally produced, and that takes time. Although they did say "stand by". But once again, that's though this stupid and confusing Batteroo "Fan Page", so technically it's not them saying anything.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on August 19, 2015, 03:22:30 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 02:54:18 am

Quote from: SL4P on August 19, 2015, 01:33:07 am

Just curious... have the Batteriser / Batteroo / Roopahvar team tried to contact ypu in any way or fprm since this exploded ?

Nope, nothing. Not even a message on my videos, or blog post, or the forum.
I think that actually tells a lot.

Indeed - if they try to call you out - they have to expose their position to validate their gripe!
Laughing! :box:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 19, 2015, 03:33:43 am

I wonder if this guy is our "Brad Jones" AKA "David Parish" (he doesn't even make a convincing magician)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4_XvJaQO34 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4_XvJaQO34)

I literally laughed out loud when the next video in YouTube's automatic playlist was Dave's debunking video!  :-DD

The video does explain it all though; Batteriser isn't based on science or fact, it's magic!

I've also noticed they've recently begun uploading and linking their videos to Vimeo instead of Youtube, probably to avoid hits/suggestions to the debunking videos? They've also disabled comments on the Vimeo videos.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 19, 2015, 04:56:07 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 02:58:58 am

But once again, that's though this stupid and confusing Batteroo "Fan Page", so technically it's not them saying anything.

All none-fan videos of the Youtube "fan page" are on their Vimeo page, too:

https://vimeo.com/user40765535/videos (https://vimeo.com/user40765535/videos)

The video 134165326 on the Vimeo page of this account is linked from the Indiegogo campaign (see HTML source code of https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x)).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 19, 2015, 06:26:15 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=166163)
 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 06:37:49 am

Quote from: PeterL on August 19, 2015, 06:26:15 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=166163)
 :-DD

EMERGENCY!
Quick, what is the best idea we can come up with to delay the engineering video that no one will dare question?
That's it, THE TROOPS!
 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 19, 2015, 06:38:21 am

After Garmin, Raytheon is next...

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pickle9000 on August 19, 2015, 06:47:38 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 06:37:49 am

Quote from: PeterL on August 19, 2015, 06:26:15 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=166163)
 :-DD

EMERGENCY!
Quick, what is the best idea we can come up with to delay the engineering video that no one will dare question?
That's it, THE TROOPS!
 :-DD

U.S.A. U.S.A., Next up... Child stuck in well needs light, then something bunny related.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 19, 2015, 06:53:37 am

Quote from: PeterL on August 19, 2015, 06:26:15 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=166163)
 :-DD

Would be quicker to just measure the cut off voltage! Or possibly even just RTFM?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 19, 2015, 06:55:49 am

When I was in the army, we was "forced" to keep our batteries (alkaline) in the fridge. Does it help at all for long time storage?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 19, 2015, 07:00:00 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 19, 2015, 06:55:49 am

When I was in the army, we was "forced" to keep our batteries (alkaline) in the fridge. Does it help at all for long time storage?

Alexander.

Nope makes it worse.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 19, 2015, 07:01:58 am

Quote from: ccs46 on August 19, 2015, 07:00:00 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 19, 2015, 06:55:49 am

When I was in the army, we was "forced" to keep our batteries (alkaline) in the fridge. Does it help at all for long time storage?

Alexander.

Nope makes it worse.

There's three ways to do anything: The right way, the wrong way, and the army way.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on August 19, 2015, 08:16:58 am

I sense a military model.

The Battalioniser

Men don your flak flat jackets.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 19, 2015, 08:25:40 am

(http://i.imgur.com/pN5myvM.png)

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 08:32:09 am

Quote from: pickle9000 on August 19, 2015, 06:47:38 am

U.S.A. U.S.A., Next up... Child stuck in well needs light, then something bunny related.

You can't write comedy this good! Batteriser is the product that just keeps on giving  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 19, 2015, 08:33:29 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 19, 2015, 08:25:40 am

(http://i.imgur.com/pN5myvM.png)

Alexander.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuaA-rUBmEc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuaA-rUBmEc)

 :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 08:41:38 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 19, 2015, 08:25:40 am

(http://i.imgur.com/pN5myvM.png)
Alexander.

Right there he is demonstrably wrong once again.
"The use of a bench power supply to determine device cutoff voltage is inaccurate."
And what the hell does the current limit setting have to do with it? That's for device overcurrent protection!
This is utterly stunning coming from a PhD EE, professor, very experienced designer in the power industry, and someone who's spent 5 years developing a battery boost converter.
Absolutely gob smackingly amazingly embarrassing statement.
Where does he think the battery cutoff voltage is measured?
It doesn't matter how many times he repeats this nonsense, it won't magically make it true.

Unfortunately he's between a rock and hard place. He's made these absurdly provably wrong statements and either has to admit he was wrong, or just keep sprouting them.
Either way he's a made himself into a laughing stock.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 19, 2015, 09:12:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 08:41:38 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 19, 2015, 08:25:40 am

(http://i.imgur.com/pN5myvM.png)
Alexander.

Right there he is demonstrably wrong once again.
"The use of a bench power supply to determine device cutoff voltage is inaccurate."
And what the hell does the current limit setting have to do with it? That's for device overcurrent protection!
This is utterly stunning coming from a PhD EE, professor, very experienced designer in the power industry, and someone who's spent 5 years developing a battery boost converter.
Absolutely gob smackingly amazingly embarrassing statement.
Where does he think the battery cutoff voltage is measured?
It doesn't matter how many times he repeats this nonsense, it won't magically make it true.

Unfortunately he's between a rock and hard place. He's made these absurdly provably wrong statements and either has to admit he was wrong, or just keep sprouting them.
Either way he's a made himself into a laughing stock.

Strange that they're going into so much trouble explaining the technology anyway, since Bob already told us long time ago that it's nothing new, only the miniaturization is:

Quote

Voltage boosters are nothing new, but Batteriser scales down the technology to the point where it can fit inside a stainless steel sleeve less than 0.1 mm thick. Roohparvar says the sleeves are thin enough to fit inside almost every battery compartment imaginable, and the combined package can extend battery life between 4.9x for devices like remote controls and 9.1x for various electronic toys.

“The Batteriser has boost circuitry that will boost the voltage from 0.6 volts to 1.5 volts and will maintain voltage at 1.5—which is a brand new battery,” Roohparvar says. “There’s actually no IP [intellectual property] in the boost circuitry. Our technology is really a miniaturization technique that allows us to build the sleeve. We have some IP in some of the IC circuits that are in there, but the key is we’ve been able to miniaturize the boost circuit to a point that no one else has been able to achieve. “

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 09:38:17 am

Quote from: PeterL on August 19, 2015, 09:12:29 am

Strange that they're going into so much trouble explaining the technology anyway, since Bob already told us long time ago that it's nothing new, only the miniaturization is:

Yes, very strange.
They seem to be under some delusion that engineers don't have a clue about how a boost converter works, or what the internal resistance of a battery is, or how to measure cutoff voltage etc. Even though millions of new products gets designed every year with complete understanding of this stuff. It's bread and butter stuff to any engineer.
Was speaking to a company the other day that makes well know high end commercial battery testers, and they are as stunned and baffled at the Batteriser's silly claims as everyone else is. They saw their monkey video and went  :wtf:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Joule Thief on August 19, 2015, 10:01:02 am

I just stumbled across this

https://youtu.be/FjQL4rtKFKw

 :palm: The analogy drawn is "your the man who squeezes the last bit out of the toothpaste tube".

And you know, for most people, that might just be the most visually graphic and accurate statement yet made about the product. Now try to convince my mind's eye I'm going to be getting 8x more toothpaste from my tube than I'm used to.

BTW  I'm not the jolliest joker in the bunch but keeping a wide grin like that on your face for 7 plus minutes has to hurt!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on August 19, 2015, 10:25:21 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 19, 2015, 08:25:40 am

(http://i.imgur.com/pN5myvM.png)

Let's try thinking his way, just for the fun. As long as the monkey gets enough current it keeps running. The lab PSU provides sufficient current (very low internal resistance) even at low voltages. A battery can't do that, because its internal resistance is higher and also increases during discharge. The problem with measuring the battery's cut off voltage is that the voltage breaks down with the high load current and the batterry's internal resistance. Since you can't measure the battery's voltage before the internal resistance, they use the batteries until the monkey stops and than measure the batteries' voltage unloaded, i.e. neglecting the internal resistance (DMM is a tiny load causing a very low voltage drop on the internal resistance).

That would explain the high(er) cut off voltages, they are claiming. But that measurement of the cut off voltage is only valid for a specific battery A from vendor B and should be repeated several times to get some average value to cope with differences between the batteries. And what about other battery types and vendors? This method doesn't make any sense. The only thing you get from this is how long the monkey would run with a specific battery.

Any effect on the Batteriser? When the batteries are so discharged that they can't deliver enough current for the monkey anymore, how could they possibly deliver even more current for a boost converter? The monkey video is actually a good example how Batteriser would fail.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 10:32:14 am

Quote from: Joule Thief on August 19, 2015, 10:01:02 am

I just stumbled across this

He claims 1.5A output current.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 19, 2015, 10:32:28 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 08:41:38 am

...This is utterly stunning coming from a PhD EE, professor, very experienced designer in the power industry, and someone who's spent 5 years developing a battery boost converter.

Is this PhD stuff and other degrees proven? Where did he buy it? Is it possible the guy' identity is stolen and used? Is there only one Bob Roohpavar? ...

But I heard similar stuff before from an Master Electrical Engineer, turned out he had always worked in the sales department of a distributor.
He said he worked there in what they called the research department but the only thing they did is research the manuals to give the customers some sales info.
They said to be very-close to real-engineering, (yes one time a year for evaluation) till all the way up in management and production (to ask when the items will be delivered)

 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 10:39:42 am

Quote from: madires on August 19, 2015, 10:25:21 am

Since you can't measure the battery's voltage before the internal resistance, they use the batteries until the monkey stops and than measure the batteries' voltage unloaded

The point is they could have, and should have, measured the battery voltage under load inside the money. If they did that, they would have found that the monkey would have stopped working at exactly the same voltage as what the PSU did.

Quote

That would explain the high(er) cut off voltages, they are claiming. But that measurement of the cut off voltage is only valid for a specific battery A from vendor B and should be repeated several times to get some average value to cope with differences between the batteries. And what about other battery types and vendors? This method doesn't make any sense.

It makes zero sense.
The batteries I used in my low current discharge testing all the way to zero volts are back up to over 1V now. They will only power a few 10's of mA for a little while at this point, as there is barely any juice left in the batteries. Put them in the monkey and they'd do nothing of course. I'm in two minds about whether to do a video showing this.

Quote

Any effect on the Batteriser? When the batteries are so discharged that they can't deliver enough current for the monkey anymore, how could they possibly deliver even more current for a boost converter? The monkey video is actually a good example how Batteriser would fail.

Bingo!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 10:42:59 am

Quote from: Galenbo on August 19, 2015, 10:32:28 am

Is this PhD stuff and other degrees proven? Where did he buy it? Is it possible the guy' identity is stolen and used? Is there only one Bob Roohpavar? ...

Yes. No one doubts his credentials as there is no reason to.
Not uncommon for people with such a high qualifications to be clueless about practical stuff, just like anyone else is capable of getting it wrong, especially when they are so invested in it and truly believe in it.
It's like Nobel prize winnings scientists who are creationists. Or the Solar Roadways guy who has a masters in EE.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AccountRemovedPerUsersRequest on August 19, 2015, 11:08:16 am

Enough words Bob. If your theory is proven in practice, just send one unit to Dave (or any other reliable person) and lets verify it! Or... you could start by putting Batteriser into that clapping monkey after batteries have run out. It should keep on clapping 8 times longer than the initial stage without batteriser... right?

Axel.

(and yes... this comment was deliberately pointed to Bob using EEVblog forum)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 19, 2015, 11:24:12 am

Anyone else here worked 5 years to "develop" or "invent" something?

I mean like really working on it, not only the saturday mornings or only on hollidays.
And 5 years for the first prototype, not during 5 years on continuous improvements on working devices.
Only on the technical/development/prototype side, not on installing a production plant for it in China, or lobbying/public image/marketing/publicity movies.

Really, 5 years?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 19, 2015, 11:24:23 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 10:42:59 am

Yes. No one doubts his credentials as there is no reason to.
Not uncommon for people with such a high qualifications to be clueless about practical stuff, just like anyone else is capable of getting it wrong, especially when they are so invested in it and truly believe in it.
It's like Nobel prize winnings scientists who are creationists.

I'm not buying that.

Nobody who's capable of designing the batteriser can believe the "8x" claim.

The person who scripted/shot the monkey video can't possibly have not thought of putting the batteriser in the monkey.

etc.

This is deliberate fraud.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 19, 2015, 11:33:33 am

Open letter to Bob (we know you read this):

Why can't you:

a) Put the batteriser onto two batteries that don't work in the monkey (eg. the ones you used in the video). Show us the monkey moving afterwards.

b) Put two identical devices side by side. One with batterizer, one without. Film the setup until one of them shuts down. Use flashlights, monkeys, GPS units, whatever you want. (nb. With GPS or similar we'll want to see the battery selection settings).

No shenanigans. Just film the process openly from start to finish.

They're two very easy, obvious tests. Either one of them will go a long way towards silencing every critic on the planet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 19, 2015, 11:48:16 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 19, 2015, 11:33:33 am

They're two very easy, obvious tests. Either one of them will go a long way towards silencing every critic on the planet.

Because that's impossible...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Joule Thief on August 19, 2015, 11:55:22 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 10:32:14 am

Quote from: Joule Thief on August 19, 2015, 10:01:02 am

I just stumbled across this

He claims 1.5A output current.

that notion was mentioned
maybe not so much a performance claim but a brief allusion to a "we need and would be nice to have" eyes closed, fingers crosses, tongue at the right angle hope and dream

Just as an aside, if you really want to develop critical listening skills and fine tune your BS sensor, watch home shopping networks. I heard a gentleman selling a vegetable slicer and dicer
say if I use his product, it will cut a cucumber so thin the one cucumber WILL LAST A WHOLE YEAR! This was immediately followed by the woman who was selling portable device power "sticks" to power smartphones, IPads, etc for a few more hours. The one point she emphasized was to buy TWO sticks and .....wait for it .... recharge the first stick with the second stick to keep your smart phone going thru the rest of your vacation day and not miss one picture taking opportunity.  :palm:

I just don't get lathered up about these devices or protecting the innocent from purchasing them. If it's not the Batteriser, it will be the vegetable slicer.

I can't save them all Clarise.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on August 19, 2015, 11:56:08 am

It is quite surprising that, with all the credentials of the batteriser guys, their EE knowledge are dubious for that they can't, at least in theory, properly argue the roll of internal resistance of a battery to their advantage: It is all about impedence matching for delivering a max power.

That is,  consider a voltage source with a serial resistor (V and Ri). The max power such a setup can deliver is when the load has  an equal resistance (impedence) as Ri. At the max power the load receives a voltage = V/2.

Now, if V/2 (e.g. 0.75V) is too low to have the load work properly, but the max power is just about high enough for the load to work, a converter is the way to solve the problem.

Then, in practice, too many factors are ignored from such an ideal model. Only real benchmarks can prove or disprove the claims.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on August 19, 2015, 12:47:07 pm

Hi,

Onlooker has a great point. Lets do the math:

I would estimate as follows for brand name AA.

(SOC = state of charge)

At 50% SOC

V= 1.4, Battery ESR = 0.3 Ohms

Maximum Power Theorem, gives max power in load as

(V/2)² / ESR = 1.6W

If you allow a conversion efficiency of 85% in the Batteriser

Max current at 50% SOC is 1.6W x 0.85/1.5V = 0.9A


At 20% SOC

V= 1V, ESR =0.6 Ohm

(V/2)² / ESR = 0.42W

If you allow a conversion efficiency of 85% in the Batteriser

Max current at 50% SOC is 0.42W x 0.85/1.5V = 0.24A


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on August 19, 2015, 01:06:24 pm

Quote from: onlooker on August 19, 2015, 11:56:08 am

It is quite surprising that, with all the credentials of the batteriser guys, their EE knowledge are dubious for that they can't, at least in theory, properly argue the roll of internal resistance

For all we know the main fraudster could of been thrown out of Broadcom when they started getting ready for the merger and someone with a clue finally had a talk with him.

Quote from: Mr.B on August 19, 2015, 01:02:45 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 12:52:10 am

I just checked on their PSU "debunking" video, 1140 thumbs down  :-DD

1,141 now...

better to click more / report / spam or misleading / report as SCAM

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 19, 2015, 03:02:10 pm

Quote from: axel15 on August 19, 2015, 11:08:16 am

Enough words Bob. If your theory is proven in practice, just send one unit to Dave (or any other reliable person) and lets verify it! Or... you could start by putting Batteriser into that clapping monkey after batteries have run out. It should keep on clapping 8 times longer than the initial stage without batteriser... right?

Axel.

(and yes... this comment was deliberately pointed to Bob using EEVblog forum)

I bet they would put brand new batteries in.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 19, 2015, 04:22:22 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 06:37:49 am

Quote from: PeterL on August 19, 2015, 06:26:15 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=166163)

Good Morning Dr. Roohparvar!

I am so sorry to hear that your retail channels have abandoned you at this critical juncture.

Now, regarding your apparent transformation into a DOD supplier, we'll need to do a little brushing up on your Latin vocabulary. There are two words that will be critical to your future:

Qui Tam

You should talk long and hard with your attorney before selling a product to the U.S. Government with the claims you are making. You might be very unhappy with the outcome.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on August 19, 2015, 06:42:31 pm

Maker of Useless Dowsing Rod for Bombs Convicted for Fraud

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/04/29/dowsing_for_bombs_maker_of_useless_bomb_detectors_convicted_of_fraud.html (http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/04/29/dowsing_for_bombs_maker_of_useless_bomb_detectors_convicted_of_fraud.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AccountRemovedPerUsersRequest on August 19, 2015, 07:43:48 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on August 19, 2015, 03:02:10 pm

Quote from: axel15 on August 19, 2015, 11:08:16 am

Enough words Bob. If your theory is proven in practice, just send one unit to Dave (or any other reliable person) and lets verify it! Or... you could start by putting Batteriser into that clapping monkey after batteries have run out. It should keep on clapping 8 times longer than the initial stage without batteriser... right?

I bet they would put brand new batteries in.

Yep, or some other trick IMHO.
Anyhow, even if this debate is fun to follow, I would like to see some actual evidences already. Bob, if you were able to bend physical laws by creating such device, prove it. And... by proving I mean demovideo with and without Batteriser. Not verbal slideshow or twin girls rapping on video or anything braindead like that. Clapping monkey with and without Batteriser is my request.

As my honest personal opinion, that video would be shown many times already if it really works. After 5 years of development they must have quite many prototypes already.

This is either a hoax or "N Ray" effect. Sorry investors...

Axel.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 19, 2015, 09:48:16 pm

Something I've only just realised...

They're flogging these off as being for AAA, AA, C and D cells.... but have only ever shown the AA version in use...

The problem here, is that a AAA battery has about half the area available for a boost regulator, compared to a AA...

There is no chance of fitting a boost regulator on the top of a AAA cell, and yet, they've been selling AAA butterisers  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 19, 2015, 10:00:23 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 19, 2015, 09:48:16 pm

The problem here, is that a AAA battery has about half the area available for a boost regulator, compared to a AA...
There is no chance of fitting a boost regulator on the top of a AAA cell, and yet, they've been selling AAA butterisers  :palm:

I've been wondering that too, but have been willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
The issue is that unless all the specs are designed around the AAA physical build size, and that's unlikely given the lack of prototypes, the AA version will have better performance. They aren't telling you what the performance of each size device is.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Stephan_T on August 19, 2015, 10:22:12 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 19, 2015, 11:48:16 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 19, 2015, 11:33:33 am

They're two very easy, obvious tests. Either one of them will go a long way towards silencing every critic on the planet.

Because that's impossible...

Can you imagine how dangerous a Monkey at 800% will be?  >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 19, 2015, 10:31:12 pm

One device I looked at, had about 0.25mm clearance above the AAA cells...

How many devices will the butteriser not even physically fit in?

What's the physically smallest 1.5 amp inductor available? Or even 500ma for that matter?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 19, 2015, 11:11:36 pm

I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the Batteriser on a miniaturization argument. Even if these guys don't have the skills personally, they surely know people who do. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on August 20, 2015, 06:41:48 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 19, 2015, 10:31:12 pm

One device I looked at, had about 0.25mm clearance above the AAA cells...

How many devices will the butteriser not even physically fit in?

What's the physically smallest 1.5 amp inductor available? Or even 500ma for that matter?

In my Garmin GPSmap 62st it is already a tight fit with normal AA's so adding the batteriser will probably cause problems.
I even had trouble fitting some NiMH batteries because they tend to be slightly longer, Eneloops just fit in it without any room to spare.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 20, 2015, 07:10:50 am

Quote from: meeder on August 20, 2015, 06:41:48 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 19, 2015, 10:31:12 pm

One device I looked at, had about 0.25mm clearance above the AAA cells...

How many devices will the butteriser not even physically fit in?

What's the physically smallest 1.5 amp inductor available? Or even 500ma for that matter?

In my Garmin GPSmap 62st it is already a tight fit with normal AA's so adding the batteriser will probably cause problems.
I even had trouble fitting some NiMH batteries because they tend to be slightly longer, Eneloops just fit in it without any room to spare.

Perhaps this is why they tested their GPS, with the batteries in a holder... claiming it was to measure current (which wasn't needing, and was basically a pointless measurement) and voltage, but then never even posting the voltage results...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on August 20, 2015, 07:27:56 am

I am going to do a quick check with batteries to see when my Garmin cuts out. I don't have a accurate power supply so I can't test it like that.
It normally runs for 15 to 20 hours on NiMH's.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 20, 2015, 09:26:11 am

A reddit thread on the GPS test:
https://www.reddit.com/r/shittykickstarters/comments/3gygee/batteriser_5x_longer_life_than_normal_batteries/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/shittykickstarters/comments/3gygee/batteriser_5x_longer_life_than_normal_batteries/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 20, 2015, 09:59:51 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 20, 2015, 09:26:11 am

A reddit thread on the GPS test:
https://www.reddit.com/r/shittykickstarters/comments/3gygee/batteriser_5x_longer_life_than_normal_batteries/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/shittykickstarters/comments/3gygee/batteriser_5x_longer_life_than_normal_batteries/)

hah, I suspected the message was something along those lines, but couldn't find any reference to it online.

They should start a kickstarter campaign to buy themselves a shovel...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 20, 2015, 10:10:19 am

Oh, I hadn't seen that one.

It actually says something about "NiMH" on screen when their GPS dies. Look in the video at 1:10.

Does anybody own the GPS unit to see the complete message?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 20, 2015, 10:14:38 am

It says "Use rechargable Nimh or *****? batteries to prevent this limitation"

I have no clue what the first few lines say though.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 20, 2015, 10:21:05 am

This seem to confirm that the GPS is set to the alkaline option. Also it shows that it was just an info message, and they should continue the "experiment".

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 20, 2015, 10:24:35 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 20, 2015, 10:21:05 am

This seem to confirm that the GPS is set to the alkaline option. Also it shows that it was just an info message, and they should continue the "experiment".

Alexander.

I do believe you're right... and when the battery voltage was artificially boosted, the info message simply never appeared as the gps wasn't monitoring the actual battery voltage  :--

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 20, 2015, 10:34:17 am

The software detected a "stupid" user that was continuously touching the screen and notified him. I doubt that the message came up for first time after two hours...

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 20, 2015, 10:41:52 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 20, 2015, 10:34:17 am

The software detected a "stupid" user that was continuously touching the screen and notified him. I doubt that the message came up for first time after two hours...

So is that why they went to all the trouble of building a finger instead of just going to the menu and selecting "don't sleep".   :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 20, 2015, 10:48:08 am

"The data shows that the gps will stop functioning after one hour and 52 minutes, and the screen dims to dark"

That isn't them saying the batteries are flat....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on August 20, 2015, 11:09:07 am

http://forums.mtbr.com/gps-hrm-bike-computer/rechargeable-batteries-will-keep-my-oregons-screen-bright-681088.html (http://forums.mtbr.com/gps-hrm-bike-computer/rechargeable-batteries-will-keep-my-oregons-screen-bright-681088.html)

Quote

In the settings menu switch the battery type to Ni-mh. If you have it set for Alkaline the screen will dim when battery level reaches a certain point. As long as you have it set to Ni-mh the screen will stay bright until the batteries' bitter end, even if you are using alkalines.

The Oregon is a slightly bigger version of this thing.
So apparently in order to get the most use out of alkalines the device actually limits the brightness of the screen. That also explains why it crapped out at about 10 hours with Batteriser installed, Garmin figured the device wouldn't come near the advertised operating time with alkalines.  This also proves the device was also set to alkaline mode. So another fabricated piece of bullshit by Batteriser, the device never stopped working, just the screen dimmed, completely as designed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 20, 2015, 11:12:17 am

This totally makes sense.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 20, 2015, 11:39:20 am

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on August 20, 2015, 11:09:07 am

So apparently in order to get the most use out of alkalines the device actually limits the brightness of the screen. That also explains why it crapped out at about 10 hours with Batteriser installed, Garmin figured the device wouldn't come near the advertised operating time with alkalines.  This also proves the device was also set to alkaline mode. So another fabricated piece of bullshit by Batteriser, the device never stopped working, just the screen dimmed, completely as designed.

More Batteriser testing FAIL.
Can they not get anything right? This isn't rocket science.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 20, 2015, 11:46:08 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 20, 2015, 10:48:08 am

"The data shows that the gps will stop functioning after one hour and 52 minutes, and the screen dims to dark"

That isn't them saying the batteries are flat....

But "stop functioning" is a lie, n'est pas?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 20, 2015, 12:09:14 pm

I dig through the Approach G5's firmware. The message is:

"The battery power is too low for full backlight. Use rechargeable NiMH or lithium batteries to prevent this limitation."

(http://i.imgur.com/jLWS4dp.png)

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 20, 2015, 12:14:17 pm

Quote from: firewalker on August 20, 2015, 12:09:14 pm

I dig through the Approach G5's firmware. The message is:
"The battery power is too low for full backlight. Use rechargeable NiMH or lithium batteries to prevent this limitation."

That seems to confirm they have screwed up this test completely. It didn't actually stop working. FAIL.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 20, 2015, 12:31:15 pm

Quote from: firewalker on August 20, 2015, 12:09:14 pm

I dig through the Approach G5's firmware. The message is:

"The battery power is too low for full backlight. Use rechargeable NiMH or lithium batteries to prevent this limitation."

Next question is: Do you actually have to keep prodding the screen to keep it at "full" brightness?

If so, that explains the finger. The finger makes no sense otherwise.

(It would also show the sheer deviousness of the batteroo people to try and show something lasting "many times longer")

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on August 20, 2015, 12:47:58 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 20, 2015, 11:39:20 am

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on August 20, 2015, 11:09:07 am

So apparently in order to get the most use out of alkalines the device actually limits the brightness of the screen. That also explains why it crapped out at about 10 hours with Batteriser installed, Garmin figured the device wouldn't come near the advertised operating time with alkalines.  This also proves the device was also set to alkaline mode. So another fabricated piece of bullshit by Batteriser, the device never stopped working, just the screen dimmed, completely as designed.

More Batteriser testing FAIL.
Can they not get anything right? This isn't rocket science.

... this leads to the logical conclusion, that the whole story is a deliberate deception. It's simply too much nonsense to be considered as lack of experience and knowledge. In a few cases of badly designed devices/gadgets/toys Batteriser might help a little bit, but anything else is just hot air.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 20, 2015, 12:56:06 pm

Quote from: madires on August 20, 2015, 12:47:58 pm

... this leads to the logical conclusion, that the whole story is a deliberate deception. It's simply too much nonsense to be considered as lack of experience and knowledge. In a few cases of badly designed devices/gadgets/toys Batteriser might help a little bit, but anything else is just hot air.

Would be really interesting to test the batteriser. In the FAQ they claim "the Batteriser sleeve is designed to deliver as much current as a battery is able to supply to the device". Good luck with that in this small form factor with the near short circuit current of an AA battery for a high power device. It will glow nice red if the boost converter isn't really high efficient >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 20, 2015, 12:58:47 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 20, 2015, 11:39:20 am

More Batteriser testing FAIL.
Can they not get anything right? This isn't rocket science.

Why expect that from a bunch of guys calling themselves PhD, who express energy in volt and clearly do not know how to use %.
What's next? Expressing time in kilogram?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on August 20, 2015, 01:44:52 pm

Quote

(It would also show the sheer deviousness of the batteroo people to try and show something lasting "many times longer")

According to Google, "The battery power is too low for full backlight." message has never before appeared on the Internet, and this might be the first mention of it.

If someone who has this unit could make it display that message and show a picture of it side-by-side with the one in the video, we'll have some pretty convincing proof. The fact that it's in the firmware might not be as convincing as others.  Now anyone who has a YT account can post that message on the Batteriser video, or make their own debunking...

Quote

... this leads to the logical conclusion, that the whole story is a deliberate deception. It's simply too much nonsense to be considered as lack of experience and knowledge. In a few cases of badly designed devices/gadgets/toys Batteriser might help a little bit, but anything else is just hot air.

Agreed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 20, 2015, 01:49:13 pm

There is another string in the firmware.

"Batteries Too Low For Backlight"

So there was another voltage step that would disable the backlight. It seems to me that the unit would function for more time by just pressing ok.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: fcb on August 20, 2015, 02:22:16 pm

So the product is debunked.  Their claims are poorly researched at best.  They look like they are using shills on all levels.

"Batteriser" (wonder why they haven't used a Z as they are from the US?) looks like it will raise a substantial amount of money.

So what? They haven't got a business as pretty soon after delivery some of the other magazines/blogs/vlogs out there will comprehensively test the product (assuming it gets delivered) - most likely they will be nursing a hefty loss and huge reputational damage.

And no VC in their right mind is going to fund them - even a small amount of due diligence on the Batteriser will find this thread.

Job done Dave, can we go back to some great teardowns, the uSupply and mailbags - even the postcards FFS.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 20, 2015, 02:28:15 pm

Quote from: fcb on August 20, 2015, 02:22:16 pm

Job done Dave, can we go back to some great teardowns, the uSupply and mailbags - even the postcards FFS.

Nobody's forcing you to read this thread. It's fun finding new flaws in their arguments (doubly so when you can use screenshots from their own videos to damn them).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: fcb on August 20, 2015, 02:34:14 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 20, 2015, 02:28:15 pm

Quote from: fcb on August 20, 2015, 02:22:16 pm

Job done Dave, can we go back to some great teardowns, the uSupply and mailbags - even the postcards FFS.

Nobody's forcing you to read this thread. It's fun finding new flaws in their arguments (doubly so when you can use screenshots from their own videos to damn them).

Damn it! I just read your reply.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 20, 2015, 02:59:00 pm

Quote from: fcb on August 20, 2015, 02:22:16 pm

And no VC in their right mind is going to fund them -

SK Telecom already did. Up to $1MM USD. Now they're trying get money out of the Department of Defense.

This is a problem. It needs to stop. It's a discredit to the profession. The Roohparvar brothers are the collective Dr. Oz of electrical engineering.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 20, 2015, 03:02:10 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 20, 2015, 02:59:00 pm

Quote from: fcb on August 20, 2015, 02:22:16 pm

And no VC in their right mind is going to fund them -

SK Telecom already did. Up to $1MM USD.

Citations...?

Edit: Don't worry, I found it - google is my friend.

Edit2: And that was back in March. This is more proof that the $30,000 IndieGoGo thing is only being done for nefarious reasons.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 20, 2015, 08:12:43 pm

Bob,

When you get back from lunch, you have some deleting to do...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 20, 2015, 08:44:17 pm

Wow. That was quick. Yeoman's work there, Bob.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 20, 2015, 08:53:23 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 20, 2015, 11:46:08 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 20, 2015, 10:48:08 am

"The data shows that the gps will stop functioning after one hour and 52 minutes, and the screen dims to dark"

That isn't them saying the batteries are flat....

But "stop functioning" is a lie, n'est pas?

Ah, but it did "stop functioning" till the "ok" button was pressed.... they didn't claim the batteries to be fully depleted, or that they'd reached the cut off voltage of the device...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 20, 2015, 09:00:20 pm

About the golf GPS test,
First of all: yes I know I was wrong thinking this was a Dakota at the wrong battery setting at first,but before drawing more wrong conclusions I think we have to look a little closer:

1) GPS devices don't like to be inside
It's very hard to get a 'fix' when inside a building, and for the older generation receivers it's nearly impossible. During this search the receiver will probably be more power hungry.
A 'cold fix' takes even longer since it has to gather the almanac data first before being able to calculate it's position. So whatever time the Garmin can run on a set of batteries in this test, it's not 1:1 comparable with real live experience.

2) About the finger:
Knowing Garmin software, the device could ask "Are you indoors?" or something like that after a minute or so without reception. I think they need this force the GPS receiver to stay active

3) Look at the current graph again that they gave us:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=166544;image)
It's clearly switching to some powersaving mode after 1.5 hours. It also looks as if it goes from constant current to constant current (or the voltage didn't drop anymore.) But they did leave it running for a while after it switched mode.

4)
Running at full power for 10 hours with the batteriser against only 1.5 or 2 hours without is still a huge plus for the batteriser IMHO. ->Which is for me is a big reason to believe something else/something more is going on.

But at the end it isjust a waste of time speculating how the got their nice results. Only independent tests can tell what the batteriser (or just the technology)  is capable off. And the fact we don't see that should say enough.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 20, 2015, 09:21:54 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 17, 2015, 08:10:28 am

Check out the blog thing on their Youtube channel!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A)

Quote

"Pls stand by we are in a process of releasing a video with the technical explanation for all engineers on how Batteriser works, while at first glance, it seems implausible, I am sure that real genuine engineers will appreciate our whiteboard technical discussions along with simulation, data matching battery companies spec sheets, in conjunction with device data. Of course, those whose revenue will be reduced by our technology will do everything to divert attention"

I wonder if it will be released before or after the end of their IndieGoGo campaign.  :popcorn:

Probably short before the campaign ends, long enough so most last doubters will see it, but short enough to not give anyone time to make a reaction video.
I guess we will see a video in which nothing will really be explained. They will admit that the critics are very smart, but the Roohparvar's will look much smarter, and that shall be enough to proof the batteriser works.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on August 20, 2015, 10:11:54 pm

This has probably been said before, has anyone taken an off the shelf boost converter and running side by side tests on some batteries and showing the results.  With known numbers like the off the shelf boost converter's efficiency it should correlate to the type of effects the batteriser would have on stuff.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 20, 2015, 10:28:37 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 20, 2015, 03:02:10 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 20, 2015, 02:59:00 pm

Quote from: fcb on August 20, 2015, 02:22:16 pm

And no VC in their right mind is going to fund them -

SK Telecom already did. Up to $1MM USD.

Citations...?
Edit: Don't worry, I found it - google is my friend.
Edit2: And that was back in March. This is more proof that the $30,000 IndieGoGo thing is only being done for nefarious reasons.

Yes, they got that VC funding back March, before this thing hit the fan with the infamous PC World article on June 1st.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on August 21, 2015, 04:41:03 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 20, 2015, 02:59:00 pm

This is a problem. It needs to stop. It's a discredit to the profession. The Roohparvar brothers are the collective Dr. Oz of electrical engineering.

I was thinking 'the Richard Simmons' of Elec Eng...!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 21, 2015, 10:34:00 am

Quote from: PeterL on August 20, 2015, 09:00:20 pm

whatever time the Garmin can run on a set of batteries in this test, it's not 1:1 comparable with real live experience.

Correct, but that's not what's being measured here.

Quote from: PeterL on August 20, 2015, 09:00:20 pm

2) About the finger:
Knowing Garmin software, the device could ask "Are you indoors?" or something like that after a minute or so without reception. I think they need this force the GPS receiver to stay active

Yep, the finger is very suspicious here. Obviously part of the cheat in some way.

Quote from: PeterL on August 20, 2015, 09:00:20 pm

4) Running at full power for 10 hours with the batteriser against only 1.5 or 2 hours without is still a huge plus for the batteriser IMHO. ->Which is for me is a big reason to believe something else/something more is going on.

Well...it would be if they weren't cheating.

But they are.

Quote from: PeterL on August 20, 2015, 09:00:20 pm

But at the end it isjust a waste of time speculating how the got their nice results.

No it isn't.

Quote from: PeterL on August 20, 2015, 09:00:20 pm

Only independent tests can tell what the batteriser (or just the technology)  is capable off. And the fact we don't see that should say enough.

Nope. Anybody can prove that battery powered devices generally use up at least 80% of the power in the battery. The other 10-20% is usually left there for a reason (eg. fully discharging rechargeables is bad for them).

Your statement would be valid if Batteriser were claiming 10-20% more, but they aren't.

(And the batteriser isn't 100% efficient so it's much more more likely to be 10-20% less on most devices)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 21, 2015, 10:45:12 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 20, 2015, 10:28:37 pm

Yes, they got that VC funding back March, before this thing hit the fan with the infamous PC World article on June 1st.

I can't find the $1 million figure anywhere but if it's true it's just more proof that the whole IndieGoGo thing is just part of a bigger scam.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 21, 2015, 11:34:01 am

What I really like with their demonstrations videos is the

"Look we made that fancy setup, and do that test"
"Here the results"

No time-lapse, no chronometer, watch or whatever to show the time elapsed, nothing at all but just bare results.

The light box, their 60 vs 20 could be after 10hours without their stuff, and the 60 vs 60 with their stuff could be done 5 min after the beginning of the test, and they didn't even give after how many time it stoped working, and for the setup without any batterastuff.

We even didn't see them taking a fresh battery from the packaging and put them in the holder, such a demonstration video should be done without any cut at all, maybe in fastforward, but without any cuts.

BTW they didn't put any data from they fancy lumen detector that store logged data on a nice SD card?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 21, 2015, 11:57:52 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 21, 2015, 10:34:00 am

Quote from: PeterL on August 20, 2015, 09:00:20 pm

But at the end it isjust a waste of time speculating how the got their nice results.

No it isn't.

The thing that their claim of 800% is just BS. We don't have to argue about that. And I'm pretty sure that there's really nothing to gain on this Garmin device.
But they can't put out any proof were the they gain less then even a ridicules 400% now can they? So whatever they will show us, they will cheat in it. And I really don't care about how they cheat. Speculating about it just gives them a good laugh, and something to react on.
Remember that these are the people that discovered that 'Powersupplies are not Batteries!'.

Also their invention is not about boost converters, Bob said so himself.

All this discussion about the performance of the converter is just distracting from what this project is really about:
Can you even make a 1.5A or even 500mA  boost converter working at 1.5V and less with a decent efficiency in the tiny space that they have?
Let's see that working first.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 21, 2015, 12:20:09 pm

Quote from: PeterL on August 21, 2015, 11:57:52 am

Can you even make a 1.5A or even 500mA  boost converter working at 1.5V and less with a decent efficiency in the tiny space that they have?
Let's see that working first.

I think no...

Looking at a few devices, they seem to have about 0.5mm of extra clearance provided by compressing the spring more, this will cater for the 0.5mm stainless steel sleeve.... But there's no clearance on the positive terminal to fit the boost converter, as most devices with cells positioned side by side, will have plastic tabs to retain the terminals...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 21, 2015, 12:36:58 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 21, 2015, 10:34:00 am

Nope. Anybody can prove that battery powered devices generally use up at least 80% of the power in the battery.

The funny thing is that Batteriser do admit this!
They admit in their FAQ (and previously on their home page before removing it) that most products cutout voltage is 1.1V under load.
They have nothing left to stand on after doing that, nothing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on August 21, 2015, 12:46:25 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 21, 2015, 12:20:09 pm

Quote from: PeterL on August 21, 2015, 11:57:52 am

Can you even make a 1.5A or even 500mA  boost converter working at 1.5V and less with a decent efficiency in the tiny space that they have?
Let's see that working first.

I think no...

Looking at a few devices, they seem to have about 0.5mm of extra clearance provided by compressing the spring more, this will cater for the 0.5mm stainless steel sleeve.... But there's no clearance on the positive terminal to fit the boost converter, as most devices with cells positioned side by side, will have plastic tabs to retain the terminals...

They have at least 1.0mm. If you look at their pictures, they have a pcb above the positive cap. The cap has a height of at least 1.0mm. It looks like they have fitted the circuit into this space.
But this also means, the new battery will be at least 1mm longer than the original one.
The available area for all parts is no more than 125mm² and the volume less than 125mm³.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 21, 2015, 12:51:42 pm

Quote from: bktemp on August 21, 2015, 12:46:25 pm

They have at least 1.0mm. If you look at their pictures, they have a pcb above the positive cap. The cap has a height of at least 1.0mm. It looks like they have fitted the circuit into this space.
But this also means, the new battery will be at least 1mm longer than the original one.
The available area for all parts is no more than 125mm² and the volume less than 125mm³.

They can make it 1mm longer, but that won't physically fit into many devices...

Edit: you'll also have about half that area for a AAA cell...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on August 21, 2015, 12:58:41 pm

Quote from: PeterL on August 21, 2015, 11:57:52 am

Can you even make a 1.5A or even 500mA  boost converter working at 1.5V and less with a decent efficiency in the tiny space that they have?
Let's see that working first.

Can you make a really tiny boost converter? Yes. Will the efficiency be any good? No. On-chip inductors exist but the inductance is tiny and the switching frequencies need to be >100MHz.

http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~wonyoung/wkim_jssc12.pdf (http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~wonyoung/wkim_jssc12.pdf)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on August 21, 2015, 01:08:18 pm

Quote from: amyk on August 21, 2015, 12:58:41 pm

Quote from: PeterL on August 21, 2015, 11:57:52 am

Can you even make a 1.5A or even 500mA  boost converter working at 1.5V and less with a decent efficiency in the tiny space that they have?
Let's see that working first.

Can you make a really tiny boost converter? Yes. Will the efficiency be any good? No. On-chip inductors exist but the inductance is tiny and the switching frequencies need to be >100MHz.

http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~wonyoung/wkim_jssc12.pdf (http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~wonyoung/wkim_jssc12.pdf)

making it is a solved problem (satellites), doesnt change the fact its a SCAM that does nothing for consumers/products

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 21, 2015, 02:54:24 pm

I have a friend who is a design engineer at Garmin, I want to see if we can get him to chime in about that GPS video. This will hilarious. :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on August 21, 2015, 03:17:41 pm

Quote from: amyk on August 21, 2015, 12:58:41 pm

Quote from: PeterL on August 21, 2015, 11:57:52 am

Can you even make a 1.5A or even 500mA  boost converter working at 1.5V and less with a decent efficiency in the tiny space that they have?
Let's see that working first.

Can you make a really tiny boost converter? Yes. Will the efficiency be any good? No. On-chip inductors exist but the inductance is tiny and the switching frequencies need to be >100MHz.

http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~wonyoung/wkim_jssc12.pdf (http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~wonyoung/wkim_jssc12.pdf)

I wouldn't consider an on-chip inductor but rather an inductor in the flex-PCB between the two battery contacts. There's lots of challenges in making that efficient, especially sandwiched between the metal case of the battery and the metal strip of the batteriser, but then they've had 5 years to do it right? ;)

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=1581833 (http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=1581833) (a much smaller inductor than needed in this case, but they've got quite a lot of area to play with along the sides of the battery).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 21, 2015, 03:41:54 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on August 21, 2015, 02:54:24 pm

I have a friend who is a design engineer at Garmin, I want to see if we can get him to chime in about that GPS video. This will hilarious. :popcorn:

If he can confirm that the voltage cutout levels are the same and confirm the presence of a boost converter, that would be fantastic.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hugoneus on August 21, 2015, 03:54:47 pm

I did a video a while back on energy harvesting ICs. I did a few experiment including collecting energy from melting ice cubes to charge my cell phone for 30 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrELRVFEx_s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrELRVFEx_s)

Those energy harvesting ICs can really drain batteries to the last drop. If I get the time I can try and see how much longer I can run something like a computer mouse or keyboard using those ICs.

Of course what matters is how much longer in relative to the overall life of the battery. If a single battery can run my mouse for 3 months and I can get an extra 1 day use, that simply is not worth it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 21, 2015, 04:00:31 pm

Only in occasions you can't leave the place you are in order to buy a fresh battery. Like night time.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on August 21, 2015, 04:22:02 pm

Quote from: Hugoneus on August 21, 2015, 03:54:47 pm

I did a video a while back on energy harvesting ICs. I did a few experiment including collecting energy from melting ice cubes to charge my cell phone for 30 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrELRVFEx_s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrELRVFEx_s)

Those energy harvesting ICs can really drain batteries to the last drop. If I get the time I can try and see how much longer I can run something like a computer mouse or keyboard using those ICs.

Of course what matters is how much longer in relative to the overall life of the battery. If a single battery can run my mouse for 3 months and I can get an extra 1 day use, that simply is not worth it.

But those things require a big storage capacitor. If you want to store a substantial amount of energy you need a huge capacitor, that just won't fit (I already doubt the  current Batteriser design fits in most devices anyway).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hugoneus on August 21, 2015, 04:37:14 pm

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on August 21, 2015, 04:22:02 pm

But those things require a big storage capacitor. If you want to store a substantial amount of energy you need a huge capacitor, that just won't fit (I already doubt the  current Batteriser design fits in most devices anyway).

Only if you need to draw a large amount of current instantly once the DUT is turned on. You can run it without capacitors at lower currents (< 300mA). Of course the source needs to be able to deliver the needed current (at lower voltages but same same power times (1/efficiency)).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rs20 on August 21, 2015, 11:07:15 pm

Quote from: Hugoneus on August 21, 2015, 03:54:47 pm

Those energy harvesting ICs can really drain batteries to the last drop. If I get the time I can try and see how much longer I can run something like a computer mouse or keyboard using those ICs.

That would be very interesting; even the most perfect energy harvesting IC can't overcome the fact that a near-dead battery has a very big ESR and therefore has a hard limit on how much power can be delivered. Put another way, if the keyboard draws power in bursts (and obviously it will), you'd really want that capacitor mentioned earlier; the capacitor provides the bursts of power; and the IC is pulling current out of the battery at a continuous, tiny current to keep I^2R down. Would be interesting to compare the longevity of the device with no output cap vs with the output cap -- does the ESR rise so rapidly that the output cap doesn't help for long, or does it make a big difference. Does just adding a capacitor to the naked battery make a bigger difference than the harvesting IC (I have my doubts)? Etc...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 22, 2015, 10:36:33 am

Quote from: rs20 on August 21, 2015, 11:07:15 pm

Does just adding a capacitor to the naked battery make a bigger difference than the harvesting IC (I have my doubts)? Etc...

TI wrote a white paper on the difference a capacitor makes to a battery:

http://www.ti.com/lit/wp/swra349/swra349.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/wp/swra349/swra349.pdf)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on August 22, 2015, 11:34:43 am

With remote controls the capacitor, even 22uF, will make a big difference. I add them to remote fobs, and they will operate even with a battery that does not even light the LED on an unmodified unit, though the drawback is they will fail fast once the remote shows low battery.

With IR remotes a 100uF 6V3 SMD capacitor added across the terminals means a battery set will last for years, as opposed to under 2 years, even with the cheapest non alkaline regular zinc carbon cells from the shop.

Even on a wall clock it helps, though with the new continuous motion clocks they still eat a battery a month. I got tired of doing it, so converted to run off a SLA cell that provides phone back up.  just added a 1000uF 10V capacitor ( old PC power supply that also donated the red LED and the SOT current limiting resistors) to handle those pulses. LED runs at 1V4, and barely glows. Even though the capacitor is CrapXon, and probably sky high ESR wise ( Did't test it, it was somewhat faded but not bulging or leaking, trhough the PSU was not happy at all) it works in this non demanding application.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on August 22, 2015, 12:51:10 pm

Quote from: SeanB on August 22, 2015, 11:34:43 am

With remote controls the capacitor, even 22uF, will make a big difference. I add them to remote fobs, and they will operate even with a battery that does not even light the LED on an unmodified unit, though the drawback is they will fail fast once the remote shows low battery.

With IR remotes a 100uF 6V3 SMD capacitor added across the terminals means a battery set will last for years, as opposed to under 2 years, even with the cheapest non alkaline regular zinc carbon cells from the shop.

I guess using a bench power supply to test the battery cut of voltage isn't going to give an accurate result then, as a bench PS already has that very low output impedance, sometimes (often) accomplished with a large internal capacitor in parallel with the output terminals, which in this case is the same as the IR remote battery terminals. And this is (sort of) what Batteroo claims when saying PS's are not the same as batteries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 22, 2015, 01:15:48 pm

Quote from: dcac on August 22, 2015, 12:51:10 pm

And this is (sort of) what Batteroo claims when saying PS's are not the same as batteries.

Nope, that wasn't what they were claiming at all.

However: It will probably be what they start claiming three days from now, right after they read your post.

PS: It will be a fail because electronics engineers actually know about capacitors (and often put them in battery powered devices!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 22, 2015, 01:27:50 pm

Quote from: dcac on August 22, 2015, 12:51:10 pm

I guess using a bench power supply to test the battery cut of voltage isn't going to give an accurate result then, as a bench PS already has that very low output impedance, sometimes (often) accomplished with a large internal capacitor in parallel with the output terminals,

Actually, it's the opposite.
The goal of a good lab PSU design is to minimise the output capacitance so that when it goes into constant current mode the output capacitance is able to supply as little peak current as possible.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 22, 2015, 01:29:19 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 22, 2015, 01:15:48 pm

However: It will probably be what they start claiming three days from now, right after they read your post.

It's been rather amazing how things magically appear on their videos, comments and website after they appear here. Must be a coincidence  ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 22, 2015, 02:04:26 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 22, 2015, 01:29:19 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 22, 2015, 01:15:48 pm

However: It will probably be what they start claiming three days from now, right after they read your post.

It's been rather amazing how things magically appear on their videos, comments and website after they appear here. Must be a coincidence  ::)

Have you seen this article?
http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)
It was posted on the GPS test video by youtube-batteriser himself, after some invisible commenter pissed him off.

This document is a study after wasted battery energy. 33% was wasted in this study, not 80.

They give reasons for why non-empty batteries are being disposed -> Non of them can be fixed with a batteriser..

Finally the show how to measured what energy is left in a battery: Measure the voltage While loading the battery with 10R or so!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on August 22, 2015, 03:25:01 pm

Quote from: PeterL on August 22, 2015, 02:04:26 pm

Have you seen this article?
http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)
It was posted on the GPS test video by youtube-batteriser himself, after some invisible commenter pissed him off.

The interesting thing is that he claims that the paper backs up their 1.3V cut-off claims (I guess they are back to that higher number now), even though the only cut-off voltage claimed in the paper, as you (at least I think it was you) pointed out in your now deleted response, was 1.0V in the camera from 2001.  The only other possibility is that they think because batteries were thrown out with >1.3V (under load) left on them.  While true, they obviously can't draw the conclusion that those batteries were tossed because they fell below products' cut-off voltages, and more likely, as the paper pointed out, the users simply threw them out prematurely.

Here's what I predict will happen with this "product", assuming they do actually get it functioning at all:

The Indiegogo backers will receive their Batterisers.  Probably about 20-25% of them will fail within 2-3 batteries' worth of use.  The rest will go into devices like remote controls that will see almost no benefit from the Batteriser (in fact I think it the Batteriser will have a detrimental effect due to losses in the converter), but that won't matter because batteries already last a long time in those kinds of devices and nobody will actually be keeping track of how long they last compared to before.  And because they spent good money on the devices, they will convince themselves that they got so much more life out of their batteries.  A few devices may actually make it into old cameras (such as the one from 2001 mentioned in the above paper) that have a poorly designed battery management system that prematurely triggers the shut off mode (a camera I have appears to be such a poorly designed POS) and the Batteriser actually will extend the apparent life of those batteries, although probably by about 10-20% or so, nowhere near their claims.  Of course the meter reading on the camera will no longer function at all, so people will still resort to the bad habits stated in the paper of switching out the batteries--regardless of state-of-charge--before a weekend trip to make sure they have a fresh set.

Eventually the Batteriser will wind up on the home shopping channels or the overnight paid advertisements.  My mom will see them and buy me one for Christmas 2016 (because they buys all that crap she sees on TV), so in early 2017 I should be able to do my own scientific analysis of how crappy these things are in real-world practical devices that people actually use (and not clapping monkeys or old fashioned incandescent flashlights).

  ...Lance

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 22, 2015, 03:35:26 pm

One of the giant logical fallacies of Brothers Roohparvar is equating human behavior with device design.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on August 22, 2015, 03:40:32 pm

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteriser-battery-life-extender-launches-on-indiegogo-raises-more-than-300-percent-of-funding-goal-in-day-one-300120225.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteriser-battery-life-extender-launches-on-indiegogo-raises-more-than-300-percent-of-funding-goal-in-day-one-300120225.html)

Quote

raising more than 3x of its goal in the first 24 hours of the 30 day campaign and is now looking for support to increase this sum over and above 1 million dollars in the remaining 28 days of the campaign.

4 days left now and they're only up to about $260,000, seems a bit short, or will there be a race to the finishing line.


http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-names-three-new-members-to-its-board-of-directors-300131651.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-names-three-new-members-to-its-board-of-directors-300131651.html)

Quote

today announced that David Martin, Min Park and Bob Pavey have joined its Board of Directors to provide governance and oversight of the company

Quote

"As we move Batteroo forward from conceptual stage to one of production and market placement of our innovative Batteriser technology, it is important to have respected and experienced Board members ensuring this transition happens as smoothly as possible," said Frankie Roohparvar, inventor of the Batteriser technology and Batteroo's Chairman of the Board. "

Just some more marketing maneuvers. I guess.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 22, 2015, 05:02:37 pm

Quote from: dcac on August 22, 2015, 03:40:32 pm

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteriser-battery-life-extender-launches-on-indiegogo-raises-more-than-300-percent-of-funding-goal-in-day-one-300120225.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteriser-battery-life-extender-launches-on-indiegogo-raises-more-than-300-percent-of-funding-goal-in-day-one-300120225.html)

Quote

raising more than 3x of its goal in the first 24 hours of the 30 day campaign and is now looking for support to increase this sum over and above 1 million dollars in the remaining 28 days of the campaign.

4 days left now and they're only up to about $260,000, seems a bit short, or will there be a race to the finishing line.


http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-names-three-new-members-to-its-board-of-directors-300131651.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-names-three-new-members-to-its-board-of-directors-300131651.html)

Quote

today announced that David Martin, Min Park and Bob Pavey have joined its Board of Directors to provide governance and oversight of the company

Quote

"As we move Batteroo forward from conceptual stage to one of production and market placement of our innovative Batteriser technology, it is important to have respected and experienced Board members ensuring this transition happens as smoothly as possible," said Frankie Roohparvar, inventor of the Batteriser technology and Batteroo's Chairman of the Board. "

Just some more marketing maneuvers. I guess.

That is major news. SK is the VC backing Batteroo. They obviously want direct authority over how things are being run from here on out. 

Brothers Roohparvar clearly have lost credibility. You have to wonder if they aren't consider refunding everyone on Indiegogo and pulling the plug.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 22, 2015, 05:12:23 pm

About the capacitor of the power supplies. I don;t believe that good designed power supplies will have any significant capacitance on the output. It would render the current limiting capability useless (upon connecting the load).

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 22, 2015, 05:12:45 pm

And at this point, I'm not sure who's reading this if its Bob, Frankie, or Min Park, but it's also time to dispense with the "toxic battery" claim. Common alkaline batteries have not used mercury for a long time. Here is Duracell's statement on the matter:

Quote

Alkaline batteries can be safely disposed of with normal household waste. Never dispose of batteries in fire because they could explode.

Due to concerns about mercury in the municipal solid waste stream, we have voluntarily eliminated all of the added mercury from our alkaline batteries since 1993, while maintaining the performance you demand. Our alkaline batteries are composed primarily of common metals—steel, zinc, and manganese—and do not pose a health or environmental risk during normal use or disposal.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 22, 2015, 05:26:44 pm

Quote from: firewalker on August 22, 2015, 05:12:23 pm

About the capacitor of the power supplies. I don;t believe that good designed power supplies will have any significant capacitance on the output. It would render the current limiting capability useless (upon connecting the load).

Alexander.

Yep, Dave gave a comment about that on the design of the Rigol DP832 if I remember correctly (or it was the Atten power supply? can't remember)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on August 22, 2015, 06:37:39 pm

http://elektrotanya.com/hq_ps3003l_power-supply.pdf/download.html (http://elektrotanya.com/hq_ps3003l_power-supply.pdf/download.html)

I think this is the PSU used in Batteroo's monkey video, and it has a 470uF capacitor directly on the output terminals.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 22, 2015, 09:06:37 pm

Quote from: lpickup on August 22, 2015, 03:25:01 pm

(at least I think it was you)
 

Yes that was me.

And my message is still there, but only I and 'BatteriserBatteroo' (-> I'm gonna call him YTBB from now on) can see my message. And only you and YTBB can see your messages. That is until YTBB makes our messages public, then everyone can see them. But by posting there we are now part of this conversation on Youtube, so that's why we get a copy of new messages in this thread on gmail, even though these messages are not made public by YTBB. At least so it seems - and I hope I explained it well. It's a bit weird this way, but it's Google, not much we can do about it. Let's wait if YTBB will respond on our comments.

Quote from: lpickup on August 22, 2015, 03:25:01 pm

The Indiegogo backers will receive their Batterisers.  Probably about 20-25% of them will fail within 2-3 batteries' worth of use.  The rest will go into devices like remote controls that will see almost no benefit from the Batteriser (in fact I think it the Batteriser will have a detrimental effect due to losses in the converter)

Don't forget the quiesent current of the batteriser. Putting the batteriser in a remote is a bad idea, I think Bob even said something this in an answer on IGG.

Quote from: lpickup on August 22, 2015, 03:25:01 pm

A few devices may actually make it into old cameras (such as the one from 2001 mentioned in the above paper) that have a poorly designed battery management system that prematurely triggers the shut off mode (a camera I have appears to be such a poorly designed POS) and the Batteriser actually will extend the apparent life of those batteries, although probably by about 10-20% or so

With 'poorly designed' you mean "not on par with 2015's technology" right? I mean I know the camera's from that era, and remember the horrible battery life you got on those with alkaline's. But that's the nature of the alkaline's with their relative high ESR. The camera has to be nice to NiMH cells as well, so it can't go below 1 Volt. The batteriser can load the alkaline's a bit more, so the voltage on the cell drop's down to 0.7V But by that time you are putting just as much power in the ESR as in your camera -> you heat up your batteries, and drain them twice as fast. But you will get to a point where the battery still has energy in it, but it cannot deliver it fast enough to power the camera.

Quote from: lpickup on August 22, 2015, 03:25:01 pm

nobody will actually be keeping track of how long they last compared to before.  And because they spent good money on the devices, they will convince themselves that they got so much more life out of their batteries.

That's my thought as well, although they might get annoyed eventually because their devices always die without any warning.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 22, 2015, 09:55:22 pm

Quote from: PeterL on August 22, 2015, 02:04:26 pm

Finally the show how to measured what energy is left in a battery: Measure the voltage While loading the battery with 10R or so!

Of course. Every single engineer and hobbyist on the planet knows this, except the Roohparvar's and their cohorts it seems.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 22, 2015, 10:35:00 pm

Quote from: PeterL on August 22, 2015, 09:06:37 pm

Don't forget the quiesent current of the batteriser. Putting the batteriser in a remote is a bad idea, I think Bob even said something this in an answer on IGG.

Yep, they've admitted they measured battery voltage unloaded  :palm:, and that they've admitted it will not be good for low power devices :palm:. So even by their own admission it will only be marginally usefull in a few high power devices (remains to be proven). :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on August 22, 2015, 11:55:14 pm

Quote from: lpickup on August 22, 2015, 03:25:01 pm

My mom will see them and buy me one for Christmas 2016 (because they buys all that crap she sees on TV), so in early 2017 I should be able to do my own scientific analysis of how crappy these things are in real-world practical devices that people actually use (and not clapping monkeys or old fashioned incandescent flashlights).

Whoa there Sherlock!
I like those clapping monkeys!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 23, 2015, 03:48:17 am

Wait no longer, for Batteroo has finally released the video explaining in great technical detail the Batteriser's principles of operation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w&list=PLC9CB54E90547E019 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w&list=PLC9CB54E90547E019)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pickle9000 on August 23, 2015, 03:55:53 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 23, 2015, 03:48:17 am

Wait no longer, for Batteroo has finally released the video explaining in great technical detail the Batteriser's principles of operation:

I love that vid

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on August 23, 2015, 03:58:51 am

"Inverse reactive current for use in unilateral phase reactors."

Where can I buy one?
Oh yeah, Dr Bob makes them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 23, 2015, 07:30:48 am

Haven't seen this article before:
The title says it all:
http://fudzilla.com/news/37954-batteriser-falls-flat (http://fudzilla.com/news/37954-batteriser-falls-flat)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on August 23, 2015, 07:51:47 am

The 800%, or 80% or whatever the figure is, it is just in the funny math:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS2aEfbEi7s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS2aEfbEi7s)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 23, 2015, 08:04:59 am

Someone pointed me to this:
Looks like the board of Dr Bob's previous company DigitalOptics of which he was Preseindet & CEO weren't happy with him and gave him to boot:
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1261694/000092189513000602/prec14a06297103_03152013.htm (http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1261694/000092189513000602/prec14a06297103_03152013.htm)
He started Batteriser that same month.

Quote

We Are Concerned that Current Board Leadership Will Continue to Prevent
Effective Management of the Company and a Constructive Dialogue with Stockholders
 
Tessera has experienced continued turnover of its top-level managers in recent years, including a number who joined the Company only recently, yet received a handsome severance package or lucrative consulting arrangement.  Two examples are discussed below:
 
Farzan (Bob) Roohparvar, who joined the Company in March 2011, was terminated from his position as President of DOC on September 4, 2012.  The Company and Mr. Roohparvar entered into a settlement agreement on December 4, 2012, pursuant to which the Company agreed to pay him and his attorneys $500,000 as an initial separation payment and $440,000 in additional severance payments.  In connection with the settlement agreement, a subsidiary of the Company and Mr. Roohparvar entered into a consulting agreement pursuant to which he will provide up to five hours per month of advice through December 31, 2013 for total payments of up to $60,000.

So sounds like he had plenty of cash to pour into Batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: eilize on August 23, 2015, 08:16:27 am

what??

don't make a joke from technology send by raptor jesus  !!!  O0
the batteriser 'll free your soul for only 2.5$





seriously

there is a simple principle..
in a ideal case where  there is no loss
the power is constant  on both side of a converter, it can only decrease.

so if you increase the voltage to ruin your jauge power...you ruin your current source
usefullness of a voltage source where you drasticlly decrease the current  ??

a simple boost

     _________L    __  \___________
    !                         |            |            |
-------                    \              |            |
!  u  !                      |            C           R
!------                      |            |            |
    |_____________|______|______|

IR= IL(1-alpha)

where alpha is the duty cycle

and i forget the loss by switching


raptor jesus know  you need it^^

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 23, 2015, 11:03:56 am

Dave, well done. It looks like evidence proving that the Batteriser is a total scam (or failure at best) is mounting almost daily (certainly faster than "Bob" Roohparvar can generate crappy bullshit videos) and it seems EEVblog was the catalyst. I haven't seen much from his "fan" either. Do you think they might have actually conducted the same tests you did (albeit off-camera), then turned to each other and said "oh shit..."?

Note to Batteroo: Leave the EE to the EE's (that's Electronics Engineers). Maybe you guys could get a job at Apple, what you designed looked great but wasn't very useful and cost too much ;-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 23, 2015, 11:20:21 am

Quote from: Halcyon on August 23, 2015, 11:03:56 am

Dave, well done. It looks like evidence proving that the Batteriser is a total scam (or failure at best) is mounting almost daily (certainly faster than "Bob" Roohparvar can generate crappy bullshit videos) and it seems EEVblog was the catalyst. I haven't seen much from his "fan" either. Do you think they might have actually conducted the same tests you did (albeit off-camera), then turned to each other and said "oh shit..."?

Note to Batteroo: Leave the EE to the EE's (that's Electronics Engineers). Maybe you guys could get a job at Apple, what you designed looked great but wasn't very useful and cost too much ;-)

Apple hire real EE, not fake one so I really doubt that they could even afford to get a job there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 23, 2015, 11:25:03 am

Quote from: Godzil on August 23, 2015, 11:20:21 am

Quote from: Halcyon on August 23, 2015, 11:03:56 am

Dave, well done. It looks like evidence proving that the Batteriser is a total scam (or failure at best) is mounting almost daily (certainly faster than "Bob" Roohparvar can generate crappy bullshit videos) and it seems EEVblog was the catalyst. I haven't seen much from his "fan" either. Do you think they might have actually conducted the same tests you did (albeit off-camera), then turned to each other and said "oh shit..."?

Note to Batteroo: Leave the EE to the EE's (that's Electronics Engineers). Maybe you guys could get a job at Apple, what you designed looked great but wasn't very useful and cost too much ;-)

Apple hire real EE, not fake one so I really doubt that they could even afford to get a job there.

That was my dig at Apple ;-)
What Apple make look pretty (including all the packaging) but, yeah... nahhhhh....
The amount of Apple hardware I've thrown out vs. PC hardware -- Apple wins hands down. There is a reason toddlers have their own iDevices these days: they are just toys.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 23, 2015, 11:55:02 am

Quote from: Halcyon on August 23, 2015, 11:03:56 am

Do you think they might have actually conducted the same tests you did (albeit off-camera), then turned to each other and said "oh shit..."?

There had to be at least several "oh shit" moments, that was very obvious in the way they have changed their story and claims bit by bit after everyone takes them to task over every new thing. All this has been documented.
I suspect they might have learned their lesson by now, as it seems there isn't a single EE on the planet who will back them. If they are the least bit smart they won't bother to release their "technical" video for engineers, they must know they don't have a technical leg left to stand on any more. There was a hint of that with the "Troops" delay excuse.
The only reason left to do it or say any more at all is to appease their financial backers, and if they do do it, it'll likely be done very reluctantly, which will likely make the video even worse. Imagine a young earth creationist who comes into a creation debate trying to hedge their bets and weasle around things, it'll be awkward and fail. You either don't turn up at all, or you go full Ken Ham. Of course you still fail either way  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 23, 2015, 01:24:25 pm

Meh, if there is a video/interview, etc, I expect it to be totally fake and scripted. There is no way they are going to let real EEs question them.

It would have been so easy for them to just put the butteriser in one clapping monkey and normal batteries in another and make the two run until the battery is drained like a Duracell bunny test. Yet they didn't, I wonder why. :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 23, 2015, 01:25:52 pm

Yeah, even the bunny test ad is much more scientific than their videos :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on August 23, 2015, 01:48:20 pm

Quote from: Godzil on August 23, 2015, 01:25:52 pm

Yeah, even the bunny test ad is much more scientific than their videos :)

Well, at least the Duracell bunny was just as misleading, by comparing an alkaline Duracell battery against zinc-chloride batteries from other brands (in 2014!), and then giving the impression that it was outlasting 12 other batteries in sequence, when it wasn't even doing that: http://www.thegrocer.co.uk/buying-and-supplying/advertising-watchdogs-silence-duracells-drumming-bunny/373910.article (http://www.thegrocer.co.uk/buying-and-supplying/advertising-watchdogs-silence-duracells-drumming-bunny/373910.article)

A nice parallel to the 800% claim really ;)

That's almost as misleading as "look! The battery status is showing 100%!"...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 23, 2015, 03:04:34 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 22, 2015, 05:12:45 pm

And at this point, I'm not sure who's reading this if its Bob, Frankie, or Min Park, but it's also time to dispense with the "toxic battery" claim. Common alkaline batteries have not used mercury for a long time. Here is Duracell's statement on the matter:

Quote

Alkaline batteries can be safely disposed of with normal household waste. Never dispose of batteries in fire because they could explode.

Due to concerns about mercury in the municipal solid waste stream, we have voluntarily eliminated all of the added mercury from our alkaline batteries since 1993, while maintaining the performance you demand. Our alkaline batteries are composed primarily of common metals—steel, zinc, and manganese—and do not pose a health or environmental risk during normal use or disposal.

Well it depends whether your using Chinese rip-off batteries, like they are.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 23, 2015, 06:17:08 pm

Quote from: janekm on August 23, 2015, 01:48:20 pm

Well, at least the Duracell bunny was just as misleading, by comparing an alkaline Duracell battery against zinc-chloride batteries from other brands (in 2014!), and then giving the impression that it was outlasting 12 other batteries in sequence, when it wasn't even doing that: http://www.thegrocer.co.uk/buying-and-supplying/advertising-watchdogs-silence-duracells-drumming-bunny/373910.article (http://www.thegrocer.co.uk/buying-and-supplying/advertising-watchdogs-silence-duracells-drumming-bunny/373910.article)

There must be many versions of bunny commercials by now, haven't seen that one.

Quote from: The Advertising Standards Authority

We considered the test data provided was not sufficient to demonstrate that the advertised product lasted longer than 12 leading zinc batteries consecutively used, in general usage, based on tests on a representative device. We therefore concluded that the ads were misleading.

:-+ That's how it's supposed to work. I wonder if there is something similar in the USA?

But it's not nearly as bad as the batteriser IMO. While misleading and the figure 12 might be BS it's still no secret that alkaline batteries last much longer than zinc cells (on average about 6x according to this old radioshack FAQ (http://support.radioshack.com/support_tutorials/batteries/bt-zicl-main.htm) ). If you put two Duracell bunnies side by side, one with crap zinc battery and the other with Duracell ultra power with duralock ::), the duracell one will outlast the zinc one by many times (even if not twelve). So the duracell advertisement might have been exaggerated and misleading but not a butteriser level scam.

Batteriser claims they will extend batterylife up to 8x, while most likely it would drain the batteries faster in most cases, unless they have come up with some nobel prize winning new physics. We all know what would happen with two monkeys, one with a batteriser and one with normal battery: the one without the batteriser will last longer since the monkey is an unregulated resistive load. So the batteriser claim is completely nonsense. In most cases it will be detrimental: higher risk of leakage, breaks the low battery indicators, drains batteries faster, etc. etc... And I'm sure the inventors know this, either that or they are so incompetent they shouldn't even be teaching electronics at gradeschool; this is a tenured professor at a university who doesn't understand you should measure battery under load? :palm: :palm: :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 23, 2015, 07:49:27 pm

One stupid question, but does a batterizer or equivalent on a single battery in a 2 or 4 battery product, won't it cause any problem?

I mean we always say to not mix battery of various ages/manufacturer on a single device, so if one battery always output 1.5 until it die completely, won't it be a problem?
Especially as some product may put the battery in parallel...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 23, 2015, 08:13:10 pm

Quote from: Godzil on August 23, 2015, 07:49:27 pm

One stupid question, but does a batterizer or equivalent on a single battery in a 2 or 4 battery product, won't it cause any problem?

Yes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 23, 2015, 08:33:41 pm

If you put several independent boost converters in parallel or series, that would normally cause problem as well since the ripples superimpose so you'd get beat frequencies and varying amplitude and lots of other nasty problems.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on August 23, 2015, 09:45:37 pm

Quote from: apis on August 23, 2015, 08:33:41 pm

If you put several independent boost converters in parallel or series, that would normally cause problem as well since the ripples superimpose so you'd get beat frequencies and varying amplitude and lots of other nasty problems.

An interesting point... but irrelevant to them, as the Batteriser is a marketing smoke screen, buying time to prepare their micro-fusion AA reactor to replace conventional batteries.
"Certified Landfill-safe by a team of professors and highly skilled engineers."
What could go wrong?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on August 23, 2015, 09:58:50 pm

Hi,

Since the Batteriser only adds 0.1mm to the length of the battery, Can I use two or more batterisers?

With their math

1 x Batteriser will give a 8x improvement

Therefore two will give

8² or 64x improvement

Soon I will never need to buy a battery again !!! :-//

Jay

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 23, 2015, 10:36:30 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on August 23, 2015, 09:58:50 pm

Hi,

Since the Batteriser only adds 0.1mm to the length of the battery, Can I use two or more batterisers?

They say the material is 0.1mm thick, but I haven't seen the claim that they only add 0.1mm to the cell's overall length. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ampere on August 23, 2015, 11:43:17 pm

Does anyone else think that the Batteriser and Solar Roadways folks should join forces?

The roadways would generate power and the Batterisers could amplify the power 800%, enough to power entire cities. It could be the most profitable crowd funding campaign in history.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 02:06:58 am

Quote from: Ampere on August 23, 2015, 11:43:17 pm

Does anyone else think that the Batteriser and Solar Roadways folks should join forces?

The roadways would generate power and the Batterisers could amplify the power 800%, enough to power entire cities. It could be the most profitable crowd funding campaign in history.

I'm imagining some guys using a crane to clip a huge batterizer to each road segment as they install them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on August 24, 2015, 03:52:35 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 02:06:58 am

I'm imagining some guys using a crane to clip a huge batterizer to each road segment as they install them.

Let's put an alternate proposal together... A roadway comprising many  small diameter rollers laid across the lanes - each driving a small generator...
Edited: Stupid tablet spell-checker!)
Each roller is constrained to turn a fraction of a degree with each new application of rotational force in order to permit the vehicle to move forward.

Tie all the small generators together to generate what effectively is a half-wave DC waveform...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on August 24, 2015, 05:47:50 am

I still can't quite understand the purpose of the crowdfunding campaign, with the qualifications and work experience of the Roohparvar brothers they wouldn't have any problems whatsoever getting millions out of investors and venture capitalists! Is it publicity? Is it because the money are uninsured? (I suspect they can't just run away with investor money?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 24, 2015, 05:57:49 am

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on August 24, 2015, 05:47:50 am

I still can't quite understand the purpose of the crowdfunding campaign, with the qualifications and work experience of the Roohparvar brothers they wouldn't have any problems whatsoever getting millions out of investors and venture capitalists! Is it publicity? Is it because the money are uninsured? (I suspect they can't just run away with investor money?)

Several reasons:
- SK puts in money plus services *valued* up to $1M. That can leave a funding gap to get to production.
-The need to show retail partners that consumers will actually buy the product
- Advertsing buzz

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 06:04:59 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 24, 2015, 05:57:49 am

- SK puts in money plus services *valued* up to $1M. That can leave a funding gap to get to production.
-The need to show retail partners that consumers will actually buy the product
- Advertsing buzz

All of this.
Plus SK will be looking to flip the company for a profit to another company up the food chain, and crowd funding campaigns like this are kinda expected these days.
They would be completely bummed at only getting $275K or so, but enough to show it's got some traction.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: nessatse on August 24, 2015, 06:24:23 am

New video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 07:16:59 am

He is in more than 500 patents?

Oh my IPU!

You are on 500+ patents only because you where CEO (and not an EE or whatever) in a company where the Policy was to put the name of the CEO on every patent issued. You NEVER do any of the Out of the Box thinking, you are definitely not that type of person. You are just the normal type of CEO that say "Yay I was working in this wonderful company that generated billions of $$$" and forget all of the one you killed, and the one that worked, most of the time you where just put there by some management board in a company that was already exinsting, and when the company start to goes bad, you just disappear instantly.

I know that type of guy, I meet one, that was my CEO at some point and when the company started to goes bad he leave pretty quickly "because he had better opportunity elsewhere"....

I don't even want to see the rest of the video just the first 2 minutes disgust me.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 07:24:44 am

WHAT? 46 minutes technical video and no batteriser? WTF? Just put in the damn thing a used battery and show us numbers...

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 07:27:42 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 07:24:44 am

WHAT? 46 minutes technical video and no batteriser? WTF? Just put in the damn thing a used battery and show as numbers...

Alexander.

I'm pretty sure he just said that you don't take the area under the graph in a battery discharge plot, you have to take the whole area, above and below the graph? :/

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 07:28:18 am

And the continue to say that the GPS unit failed when the screen dimmed...

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 07:29:43 am

I'm confused about snails....  :o

I got the answer, I just have no idea how he thinks this relates to batteries...  |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 07:31:49 am

"area under the curve"

and then he highlights the whole graph, below, and above the curve.... so confuse?!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 24, 2015, 07:34:33 am

Their only point in this 46 minutes long video is that if there is a current spike the voltage can dip below the cut-off voltage suddenly. They claim that the Garmin GPS detects that and shut down prematurely.

(Yeah I don't get what he was trying to say about the area under the curve? Since it's constant current power is proportional to voltage and thus energy is the time integral of the voltage curve?  :-//)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 07:36:45 am

Quote from: apis on August 24, 2015, 07:34:33 am

Their only point in this 46 minutes long video is that if there is a current spike the voltage can dip below the cut-off voltage suddenly. They claim that the Garmin GPS detects that and shut down prematurely.

so stick a capacitor in it? problem solved!

wait, I think we already discussed this... lol

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 24, 2015, 07:47:08 am

Yeah?  :palm:

Seems the whole point of the batteriser is to fool the devices battery level indicator so people don't change batteries to prematurely.

The unrealistic test situation aside, did the garmin gps really shut down or did it only display a low battery message?

(And btw, issuing patents is not hard, it just cost a lot of money.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 07:49:36 am

Quote from: apis on August 24, 2015, 07:47:08 am

Yeah?  :palm:

Seems the whole point of the batteriser is to fool the devices battery level indicator so people don't change batteries to prematurely.

The unrealistic test situation aside, did the garmin gps really shut down or did it only display a low battery message?

(And btw, issuing patents is not hard, it just cost a lot of money.)

as far as we can all tell, it didn't shut down at all, it just displayed a message suggesting you use rechargeable batteries.

they never posted a log of the battery voltage, so I doubt it ever got down to 1.1volts, even for a fraction of a second.

edit: their new video also seems to be claiming that the gps draws 200 to ~660ma on peaks, which is when it shut down.... even though their previous video showed it using 125 to ~320ma when it shut down...  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Orips on August 24, 2015, 08:06:19 am

OMG there are so many things wrong in that video I don't know where to start!

Re. the Garmin testing this is what I think is happening - the Garmin is doing exactly what it has been designed to do - monitor the battery voltage and dim the backlight and display the message when it reaches a particular level. I think the spike they are seeing is the current drawn when the display is updated with the message. Either by the micro or display. The 2.25V (1.1v/cell) they are measuring on the scope is purely a coincidence and is NOT the shutdown voltage of the device!

The Garmin would almost certainly have a boost converter so the voltage spikes they are seeing would have absolutely no effect on the unit. They would see the same spikes if they measured across the battery inside the Batteriser. If they could measure after the Garmins boost converter (like they are on the batteriser) there will be no spikes.

The Batteriser is also interfering with the Garmins firmware design by not allowing it to measure battery voltage and use its current minimising features like reducing backlight brightness etc. to extend operation.
 :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 24, 2015, 08:17:13 am

Quote from: Orips on August 24, 2015, 08:06:19 am

The Batteriser is also interfering with the Garmins firmware design by not allowing it to measure battery voltage and use its current minimising features like reducing backlight brightness etc. to extend operation.

I think you are right, and then it really does seems like the only effect is too fool the devices own battery measurements so it doesn't show a low battery warning to the user... |O

Why can't they just put the batteriser on the dead monkey batteries and show us the monkey clap seven times as long as it already had.

Oh well, the truth will get out eventually... :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Orips on August 24, 2015, 08:21:51 am

Quote from: apis on August 24, 2015, 08:17:13 am

Quote from: Orips on August 24, 2015, 08:06:19 am

The Batteriser is also interfering with the Garmins firmware design by not allowing it to measure battery voltage and use its current minimising features like reducing backlight brightness etc. to extend operation.

I think you are right, and then it really does seems like the only effect is too fool the devices own battery measurements so it doesn't show a low battery warning to the user... |O

Why can't they just put the batteriser on the dead monkey batteries and show us the monkey clap seven times as long as it already had.

Oh well, the truth will get out eventually... :popcorn:

Probably because it wont! :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 24, 2015, 08:36:17 am

Quote from: Orips on August 24, 2015, 08:21:51 am

Probably because it wont! :-DD

Or maybe big battery is holding them back! :o :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 08:55:28 am

This video just popped up, I have not watched it yet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cV8SH7Ghbo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cV8SH7Ghbo)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 09:09:43 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 08:55:28 am

This video just popped up, I have not watched it yet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cV8SH7Ghbo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cV8SH7Ghbo)

He is wrong about the Apple keyboard. I mentioned before that the batteries on that thing last about 2 months. And when Apple released the mighty mouse, the combination of the two, got something  screwed up and the batteries lasted 2 weeks max.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 09:13:54 am

BTW, I didn't get it when I first look at the keyboard video, but Batterafool got it wrong on the OS name, the X is Roman numeral, so OS X is to be pronounced OS TEN.

That's my 2 cents ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 09:15:25 am

Should I dare watch this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w)

Or should I wait for the Rotten Tomatoes review to see if it's worth wasting my life on?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 09:16:31 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 09:15:25 am

Should I dare watch this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w)

Or should I wait for the Rotten Tomatoes review to see if it's worth wasting my life on?

It is refreshing.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 24, 2015, 09:18:48 am

Quote from: apis on August 23, 2015, 08:33:41 pm

If you put several independent boost converters in parallel or series, that would normally cause problem as well since the ripples superimpose so you'd get beat frequencies and varying amplitude and lots of other nasty problems.

Exactly. These things run at higher frequencies, one device will respond to the output of the other.
Without communicated synchronisation they have to be damped, reaction slown down, witch reduces the overall stability, specs and efficiency.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 24, 2015, 09:19:49 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 09:15:25 am

Should I dare watch this?

Or should I wait for the Rotten Tomatoes review to see if it's worth wasting my life on?

Yes, definitely. You learn in 46 minutes that devices should add a few capacitors to allow for current peaks... Oh wait, they already do :)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 09:22:13 am

So, if the butteriser just compensates for high peak loads, it won't help in a torch, because that's a fairly continuous resistance load, it won't help in the monkey, because that will run down to nothing anyway.

It won't help in any older hand held games consoles or tv remotes.

It most likely won't do anything in a wireless keyboard or mouse.

It will possibly allow a discman to spin up the disc at a lower cell starting voltage, but won't actually increase the run time.

And it might allow a digital camera to take 5 extra pics...

I'm sold!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on August 24, 2015, 09:23:25 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 09:15:25 am

Should I dare watch this?

You will also learn that he has over 500 patents in his name and about 200 in the pipeline to be issued.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 24, 2015, 09:23:50 am

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on August 24, 2015, 05:47:50 am

I still can't quite understand the purpose of the crowdfunding campaign, with the...

Before: Get your coolTech idea payed for by the un-educated masses and clueless decision makers. Avoid "hard" and "tough" scientific questions and proof. 
Now: Get your coolTech idea reviewed by the online community, unfortunately including that small science educated niche community.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 24, 2015, 09:29:54 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 09:15:25 am

Should I dare watch this?
...

The interviewer is a computer generated voice. (in the first 2 minutes, didn't watch/hear the rest)
Makes me think of the voice in my GPS.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 24, 2015, 09:31:50 am

Oh what a fail!  :palm:

Dave, looking forward to you picking apart this video. Please include cheesy royalty-free music in your response. Instead of the clacky keyboard sound, I request you use an old fashioned typewriter with the carriage return "ding" at the end of each question.   :D

Also, could they not afford to hire TWO lapel mics?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 09:35:22 am

Dave: I'm not even sure that the Rotten Tomato folks would even bother to give a note for this, they would die of borring just after 3 minutes of watching.

Quote from: Halcyon on August 24, 2015, 09:31:50 am

Also, could they not afford to hire TWO lapel mics?

No, this is not their job, they are here only to sell their ripoff of my BUTTeRUSEr PTM Edition (I have small tweak to be done before releasing it, OSH of course) so, leave the good mics to folks that only know how to do youtube videos and not EE, like dave, and leave the EE to people that know how it works...

(did that mean that they should stop doing EE and Youtube video, as dave is good at both?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on August 24, 2015, 09:37:26 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 09:15:25 am

Should I dare watch this?

You will learn that batteries equipped with batteriser can supply peak current at higher voltage than batteries without or at least that is the implication you get from the video. The batteriser is not participating in the video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 09:47:55 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 09:15:25 am

Should I dare watch this?
Or should I wait for the Rotten Tomatoes review to see if it's worth wasting my life on?

There's 10 minutes of stating the obvious (explaining how batteries work), two outright lies, then half an hour of mind-numbing mumbling while looking at oscilloscopes trying to justify those lies (our monkey probing friend makes an appearance for this).

At no point do they put a batteriser on a 'dead' battery and show it working again or do anything obvious/useful like that.

Hey, at least they got him a proper soldering iron for this one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 09:49:40 am

Is their (cheap) oscilloscope (cheap) probe are correctly calibrated this time?

It's really funny to see that a company that should have so much money to buy cheap chinese stuff for their "EE lab"? Why I don't see any agilent/tek/... or even Rigol branded TE stuffs?

Why does their EE lab look like a cheap table with nothing that a normal EE lab should have?

There is no way to "create" a sleeve like what they claim to have done in a lab like this.
I wonder if everything hasn't been fully ODM designed by some chinese company on the behalf of the battefool company?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:02:48 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 09:47:55 am

There's 10 minutes of stating the obvious (explaining how batteries work), two outright lies

What lies are they?
(I still haven't watched it)

Quote

then half an hour of mind-numbing mumbling while looking at oscilloscopes trying to justify those lies (our monkey probing friend makes an appearance for this).

Oh great.

Quote

At no point do they put a batteriser on a 'dead' battery and show it working again or do anything obvious/useful like that.

Of course not! They seem to specialise in this.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 24, 2015, 10:02:59 am

They do use a Rigol in part of the video.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 10:05:23 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 09:15:25 am

Should I dare watch this?

something about snails, and 25 feet, which apparently 90% of people won't get, I assume that means he didn't get it at first either, I thought it was pretty obvious...  :-/O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:05:42 am

Quote from: HKJ on August 24, 2015, 09:37:26 am

You will learn that batteries equipped with batteriser can supply peak current at higher voltage than batteries without or at least that is the implication you get from the video.

Ah, didn't somebody call this one a while back? as peak currents have recently been discussed on the forum.
I've been waiting for them to mention peak currents and voltage dips due to ESR. Let me guess, they use a camera as a test device in the video? (that are notorious for peak current issues with Alkalines)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 10:07:46 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:05:42 am

Quote from: HKJ on August 24, 2015, 09:37:26 am

You will learn that batteries equipped with batteriser can supply peak current at higher voltage than batteries without or at least that is the implication you get from the video.

Ah, didn't somebody call this one a while back? as peak currents have recently been discussed on the forum.
I've been waiting for them to mention peak currents and voltage dips due to ESR. Let me guess, they use a camera as a test device in the video? (that are notorious for peak current issues with Alkalines)

(well, yes, but I wasn't paying much attention)
however, they claimed the GPS drew 660ma peak, dropping the cells from 1.25 volts each, to 1.1volts, and causing it to shut down...

which is interesting, because their first test showed the GPS drawing about 300ma peak when it shut down...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 10:23:21 am

But then, if its dropping to 1.1volts with (660ma) ~730mw load, with an 80% efficient dc-dc converter, you're now drawing ~910mw, or 830ma at 1.1volt..... but you're not going to have 1.1volts anymore, because you've increased the load.......... we all know where this is going of course :P

And can we really expect a 700+ ma output from a tiny boost regulator, with basically no capacitance? Isn't that going to drop voltage just as badly as the cells are anyway?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on August 24, 2015, 10:24:41 am

Quote from: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 09:49:40 am

It's really funny to see that a company that should have so much money to buy cheap chinese stuff for their "EE lab"? Why I don't see any agilent/tek/... or even Rigol branded TE stuffs?

There was a Rigol DS1054Z and a Tektronix current probe. They didn't show if the probes were properly compensated.

The video is unnecessarily lengthy to make their point. They don't show Batteriser at all, nor a real side by side comparison. The Garmin screen with the pop up notification looks to me like the text is intentionally smudged beyond readability. They don't properly show their test setup, it is unclear where they measure voltage and current and how long (and thing) the leads are they use. In all cases the battery holders were extended with wires to place them outside the DUT. They didn't show that the Batterizered batteries actually fit (physically, in length and diameter in the DUT's battery compartments.

I understand his "under the curve" vs. "boxed" argument (it is basically using two Y-axis, one in volts the other in ampères it should've been explained more clealy), but this is only accurate for a constant current load which is in my opinion very unlikely. I can't imagine a load would draw the same current at a 1.5V battery voltage as at a 0.8V battery voltage.

My 1.76 €ct

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 10:26:17 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 09:47:55 am

There's 10 minutes of stating the obvious (explaining how batteries work), two outright lies, then half an hour of mind-numbing mumbling while looking at oscilloscopes

To save people from sitting through that awful video:

a) Apparently you have to include the area above the battery discharge curve when you're dealing with constant current devices, not just the area below it.

(No, I don't get it either, he just states that as a fact and gives no explanation.)

b) Due to ESR, sudden spikes in current demand can cause sudden voltage drops at the battery terminals. If the voltage drops low enough during a huge spike then the device will shut down prematurely. This in turn makes you think the batteries are dead when they're really half full (or whatever).

This is what the robot finger on the GPS is for - to cause big current spikes.

Does Batteriser prevent this voltage drop by drawing even more current from the battery to compensate? :-// This isn't explained.

Well, it might be but my brain went into shutdown after 20 minutes of mumbling and oscilloscope traces to prove that current draw in devices isn't constant.

(It isn't? Really??? I guess it takes a PhD to know clever stuff like that!!!  :palm: )

Edit: I don't mean the ESR voltage drops are a lie, I mean I don't believe the effect is causing millions of people to throw perfectly good batteries away.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 10:31:05 am

I love the pc with the opened (and modified but not saved) FR_AA.cir file that in the ~/Download folder,
The "Eldo User's Manual (http://www.engr.uky.edu/~elias/tutorials/Eldo/eldo_ur.pdf)" pdf file opened
And best, the user login on the laptop: Engineer, and the laptop is named "Batteroo"
Sound strange, they have only one computer so that they named it the same as their company? and they only have one person working there "Engineer" ?


Ok for the DS1054Z + Tek probe, I haven't saw this video yet, so they bought some stuff since the Monkey video... Or borrow them from the university lab.... ;)
Strange BTW to mix a tek probe with a Rigol DSO

For the shaded area, the area he shade is not the voltage area, but the constant current area "left" which does not mean the same thing AT ALL.
Of course he put the 100mA line on the same level as 1.6V to make sure that the newly shaded area seems really big, but in fact it's just another bullshit.

(and the snail tought experiment is just so stupid..)

Edit: The scope after the "expensive tek probe" seems to be a cheap hantek DSO not a rigol
Look at the screenshot I attached, on 1 for me I read hantek, and look on the right foot of this DSO, it is so bad that they need to use a 250g 1+mm cheap solder wire to make it stable? :D
And the setup on that poor camera is so unprofessional that.. Erk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:39:58 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 09:22:13 am

So, if the butteriser just compensates for high peak loads

And how much energy capacity does the coil and output cap in the (ultra-tiny) Batterieser circuitry have to do this? Do they mention that at all?
By inspection, the Batteriser must have bugger-all peak current handling capacity due to it's size, those pesky laws of physics and all.
What they are relying on is the Batteriser goes down the 0.6V on the cell input, and that could be an advantage in a few niche circumstances, but if they don't actually show it in practice, then, blah.

Do they mention or show the pulse response of the Batterieser?
Do they mention or show the efficiency response curve of the Battersier?
I fully expected this "be-all end-all" technical videos for "real engineers" to include at least that stuff.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 10:45:07 am

Quote from: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 10:31:05 am

Ok for the DS1054Z + Tek probe, I haven't saw this video yet, so they bought some stuff since the Monkey video...

Yep. They've got him a nice new Hakko soldering station.

I hope it's enough reward for committing career suicide on video. Just imagine the his next job interview -  "Hey, it's the monkey-butt guy!!".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on August 24, 2015, 10:47:30 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 10:26:17 am

b) Due to ESR, sudden spikes in current demand can cause sudden voltage drops at the battery terminals. If the voltage drops low enough during a huge spike then the device will shut down prematurely.

[...]

Does Batteriser prevent this voltage drop by drawing even more current from the battery to compensate?

I've been experimenting with a boost converter on a penlight in the past myself and it workes reasonably well for the purpose I used it for: An el cheapo LED camping light that fades over time. One of my lessons learned was that due to a current peak the converter can "latch up". Due to an output current peak the battery can be loaded so far that its voltage collapses beyond a certain point of recovery causing excessive current to be drawn. Current can be significant, heating up the cells, but total output power can in that case be very low, even too low to power the load, but enough to keep the converter running. The battery output voltage only recovers after switching off the converter (switching off the load is no longer sufficient) and reconnecting it.

I believe I did hear couple Energy vs. Voltage mess up's, but I can't be bothered to view the video again.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 10:50:05 am

Quote from: jippie on August 24, 2015, 10:24:41 am

I understand his "under the curve" vs. "boxed" argument (it is basically using two Y-axis, one in volts the other in ampères it should've been explained more clealy), but this is only accurate for a constant current load

Is that what he was trying to get at? All I saw was him drawing a line across at the 1.6V level then shading the area above the graph and saying "this means there's really 50% remaining".

Quote from: jippie on August 24, 2015, 10:24:41 am

which is in my opinion very unlikely. I can't imagine a load would draw the same current at a 1.5V battery voltage as at a 0.8V battery voltage.

The rest of the video is devoted to proving that current draw isn't constant.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:52:03 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 10:26:17 am

a) Apparently you have to include the area above the battery discharge curve when you're dealing with constant current devices, not just the area below it.
(No, I don't get it either, he just states that as a fact and gives no explanation.)

Ok, someone pointed me to that bit so I watched it.
The point he's trying to make here is exactly the same as my graph in my blog post and follow-up video here:
(http://www.eevblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/CoppertopAA-DischargeCapacityGraph-Line.png)
Except that he's assuming the battery capacity is measured in only mAh, which of course no battery is. Battery capacity is measured in Wh. Did he mention this later?
But, as my graph shows (which calculates power), it's almost a linear line, so mAh and Wh are practically the same in this case. In that case as my graph shows you can simply take the capacity remaining from the X axis like he is saying (the "area" part is moot).
So once again, he's technically right, but he's not saying anything that hasn't been said before, and he's not the least bit disproving the graph in my blog post.
If he did exactly what he is saying on real data (which he didn't), then he'd get the exact same result of remaining capacity as my graph. No surprises there at all.
It's more misdirection to try and prove they are "right" and everyone else is "wrong"  ::)
FAIL.

Did they really not do any test on the Batteriser itself in a 40min video?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 10:58:11 am

Dave: After 30 minutes, no batterizer, apart if the gps setup have one on it, but no mention about that. and as they are to measure "real battery voltage and current" I doubt that their stuff is inside.

And the rigol is just there for the show but does nothing, they still use the hantek cheapo for measurement, strange...

Before I forgot, both of them seems really uneasy by doing this video, just look at their body languages, they both shake their legs, sign of big stress and being in a really uncomfortable position, especially Chris.

BTW their way to "measure" average is beyond stupidity, why don't they use the DSO measurement functionality to get the average instead of wrongly put a cursor somewhere?

And our Chris does not know how to configure his nice Rigol DS1054 to configure the channel to says probe is 10X and display mA instead of mV, but I'm maybe asking too much.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 11:05:00 am

@Dave. No batteriser. You must watch it.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 11:07:55 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 11:05:00 am

@Dave. No batteriser. You must watch it.

Must I?  :(
Not enough Ripe Tomatoes yet.
Sorry, I have an appointment at the dentist to get all my teeth extracted, and he's out of pain killer and is a former marketing droid who like to talk about synergies. That's a less painful deal by the sounds of it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 11:09:03 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:52:03 am

But, as my graph shows (which calculates power), it's almost a linear line, so mAh and Wh are practically the same in this case. In that case as my graph shows you can simply take the capacity remaining from the X axis like he is saying (the "area" part is moot).

I just watched it again (it's at 9 minutes in).

I think I got it. The trick is to assume the current remains constant as the voltage drops.

It's not a common situation but it could happen, eg. powering a linear voltage regulator where the battery voltage never drops below the regulator's dropout voltage.

But... that's a situation where using a batteriser will make things much worse. A voltage booster will make sure the voltage regulator is producing the maximum possible amount of heat for 100% of the battery's lifetime.

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:52:03 am

Did they really not do any test on the Batteriser itself in a 40min video?

Nope.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on August 24, 2015, 11:12:36 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 11:07:55 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 11:05:00 am

@Dave. No batteriser. You must watch it.

Must I?  :(
Not enough Ripe Tomatoes yet.
Sorry, I have an appointment at the dentist to get all my teeth extracted, and he's out of pain killer and is a former marketing droid who like to talk about synergies. That's a less painful deal by the sounds of it.

You are always so full of scientific proof, so ... Picture or it didn't happen  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 11:13:39 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 11:07:55 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 11:05:00 am

@Dave. No batteriser. You must watch it.

Must I?  :(
Not enough Ripe Tomatoes yet.
Sorry, I have an appointment at the dentist to get all my teeth extracted, and he's out of pain killer and is a former marketing droid who like to talk about synergies. That's a less painful deal by the sounds of it.

The start is OK. He proves he actually knows about batteries.

And that kinda makes the rest of it even worse - it throws the fraudulance into sharp relief.

Oh, I lied about the start. There's a really painful part where they ask him how anybody can hold 500 patents and he says "Well, I guess it's because I'm a really really clever person!"  :wtf:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 11:15:28 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 11:13:39 am

The start is OK. He proves he actually knows about batteries.

That's what confused me... most of it made sense, was correct, or agreed with what everyone else was saying... and then physics went out the window!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 11:15:32 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 11:09:03 am

I think I got it. The trick is to assume the current remains constant as the voltage drops.
It's not a common situation but it could happen, eg. powering a linear voltage regulator where the battery voltage never drops below the regulator's dropout voltage.

Correct. I explained this in a recent video.

Quote

But... that's a situation where using a batteriser will make things much worse. A voltage booster will make sure the voltage regulator is producing the maximum possible amount of heat for 100% of the battery's lifetime.

Correct.

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:52:03 am

Did they really not do any test on the Batteriser itself in a 40min video?

Nope.
[/quote]

Oh dear  :palm:
Please tell me it has efficiency curves?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 11:16:11 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 11:15:32 am

Please tell me it has efficiency curves?

lol

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 11:18:23 am

They zoom on the recorded singleshot so high that we only see quantisation error  :palm: (33:16)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 24, 2015, 11:23:16 am

They could have just filmed two products (a Batteriser vs. non-Batteriser) and thrown it into time lapse or sped up the video. Would have been far more interesting (and accurate).

Then again, that would have simply proven Dave right, and Roohparvar et. al. wrong. I guess all they've confirmed is that the Batteriser is a scam.

(I love how Google indexes this forum too) ;-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 11:26:06 am

Quote from: Halcyon on August 24, 2015, 11:23:16 am

They could have just filmed two products (a Batteriser vs. non-Batteriser) and thrown it into time lapse or sped up the video. Would have been far more interesting (and accurate).

Yes that what I tell pages ago in this topic on the other one can't remember, the GPS video, or the flash light version just show a fancy setup, and directly goes to "the results are this and this" without anytimelapse or whatever.

If the are short on money, can anyone send them a SJ4000 camera? it seems to works really well for timelapse as Dave shown multiple times now

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on August 24, 2015, 11:33:18 am

Hi,
The Battery model that is presented in the video is the same model that I presented in this thread. I translated the original model from:

S. C. Hageman, “Simple PSpice models let you simulate common battery types,”
Electronic Design News, vol. 38, pp. 117 – 129, 1993.

You can fine the model in this thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/modeling-an-alkaline-battery-in-ltspice/msg731204/#msg731204 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/modeling-an-alkaline-battery-in-ltspice/msg731204/#msg731204)


It absolute BS that the amount of energy remaining depends on whether you have a constant current or a resistive load.

I modified by model to add an energy meter. The energy is the integral of instantaneous power.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=167391;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=167398;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=167402;image)

I find that the battery has a total energy of 10.2 kJ.

If look at how much energy is left when the 1.0V threshold is reached, in both cases I get 1.47 kJ

I have attached a zipfile with the model.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B BSc (Eng) Hons ACGI (Imperial College, London)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on August 24, 2015, 11:54:31 am

So based on the information provided in the video (which is not worth watching by the way and has the technical content of a brick) someone somewhere is counting discarded batteries on a global scale and conducting load and voltage measurements, really show me the person and the paperwork.

Our local council recycle centre has big bins full of discarded batteries and I've never seen a fellow sitting alongside with a shit load of test gear and an open spread sheet, which begs the question should I go around and grab a few hundred and video the whole thing or like the rest of it would it be a lot of energy and effort for little gain.

And by the way the snail was getting closer to the sun.... :palm:


Muttley

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 11:56:29 am

@Dave. Don't you dare not to watch it. We are all together to this.  :P :P :P

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 12:05:23 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on August 24, 2015, 11:54:31 am

Our local council recycle centre has big bins full of discarded batteries and I've never seen a fellow sitting alongside with a shit load of test gear and an open spread sheet, which begs the question should I go around and grab a few hundred and video the whole thing or like the rest of it would it be a lot of energy and effort for little gain.

It's pointless, except to build Batteriser case, because it's based on the unknown of why the batteries were discarded.
Without that data then it is misleading to use that data as evidence for energy remaining in used batteries.
But of course Batteriser lapped up that data after it was posted here and will no doubt claim "well that's what people are throwing" out. Well, that may be true, but that habitual based throwing out for whatever reason that won't be changed with the use of the batteriser. As it has been demonstrably shown (and they admit) that most products have a 1.1V cutoff voltage or lower.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 12:07:48 pm

Ooops, looks like they've disabled comments on that new youtube video.

Maybe it didn't answer all our questions.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 24, 2015, 12:09:07 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 09:15:25 am

Should I dare watch this?

There are some interesting things, like a Spice battery model (they don't link any references, but I googled it (http://http://www.ni-cd.net/accusphp/forum/docjoints/ID2051_Modelisation_decharge_batteries_Pspice.pdf)).

Then there are the bullshit parts, starting at 8:13: He draws a 100 mA current line and says the energy left is not the area under the voltage curve, but the area under the current line. Has nothing to do with how much power is left and of course, most modern devices needs constant power.

And as already debunked, at 26:38 they repeat that the Garmin device stops functioning after 1:52 hour, but the message on the screen is only a warning for the backlight. As firewalker found out here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg735874/#msg735874), the message could be "The battery power is too low for full backlight. Use rechargeable NiMH or lithium batteries to prevent this limitation.". I did a screenshot and tried some filters to enhance it, and I'm sure this is the message:

(http://i.imgur.com/wLDGWuj.jpg)

Technically maybe you could say that lower backlight means "stop functioning", if they mean 100% functioning and the batteriser would indeed help for this device for this use case. Of course, without the batterise it might be possible to use the GPS device much longer, because the full backlight needs much more power, so this is reasonable for the firmware. But it looks like it does a peak detection. They should improve the firmware and do some average over some seconds, because from the current consumption diagram you can see that it works in constant power mode, so there is an internal boost converter. Short drops below the cutoff voltage doesn't matter.

For the scope part they are using a 0.1 ohm shunt (30:20 in the video: "for every one millivolt you get ten milliamps"). This would result in a voltage drop of 0.046 for the 460 mA, so at least they got this right and it doesn't matter that much for the cutoff voltage. The rest of the video is arguing, that the batteriser prevents such spikes. Adding a 10 cent capacitor, or fixing the firmware of the Garmin device, would solve this, too.

If a laywer would watch the video, they might not say anything wrong, but it is all very misleading and the batteriser is not useful for 99% of all devices.

PS: I'm one of the 10% who knew the right answer for the snail question :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 12:10:38 pm

If I'm throwing away batteries with unknown capacity left, it's because I'm going away, and want new batteries in my digital camera, or I've removed them from a device that I haven't used, or don't plan to use, for a while, and don't want to risk them leaking...

Other than that, they get left in devices till they'll no longer function, at which point the cells are depleted!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 12:10:57 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 12:07:48 pm

Ooops, looks like they've disabled comments on that new youtube video.

That's it, the end, they lose.  :-DD

Whilst I love laughing at the train wreck that is Batteriser, I can't help but think the best move is to simply ignore them now and let the product just die a natural death?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on August 24, 2015, 12:14:49 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 12:10:57 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 12:07:48 pm

Ooops, looks like they've disabled comments on that new youtube video.

That's it, the end, they lose.  :-DD

Whilst I love laughing at the train wreck that is Batteriser, I can't help but think the best move is to simply ignore them now and let the product just die a natural death?

Bollocks to that Dave!  Keep prodding them until they admit defeat!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 12:15:58 pm

Prod them like the monkey!

But please don't video it...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 12:17:06 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 11:15:32 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 11:09:03 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:52:03 am

Did they really not do any test on the Batteriser itself in a 40min video?

Nope.

Oh dear  :palm:
Please tell me it has efficiency curves?

Snork.  :-DD

You owe me a new keyboard. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on August 24, 2015, 12:19:20 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 12:10:57 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 12:07:48 pm

Ooops, looks like they've disabled comments on that new youtube video.

That's it, the end, they lose.  :-DD

Whilst I love laughing at the train wreck that is Batteriser, I can't help but think the best move is to simply ignore them now and let the product just die a natural death?

Just one final video, just one! Film yourself watching it live and comment on the go if you don't want to waste more time!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 12:20:51 pm

Quote from: Delta on August 24, 2015, 12:14:49 pm

Bollocks to that Dave!  Keep prodding them until they admit defeat!

It gets tiring, like debating young earth creationists. It's fun for a while and then you just have to give up.
I won't get around to doing a responsive video for quite a while on this one (if I have the enthusiasm after watching it), too much else going on.
It would be great if others could also pick up the baton. I can't be the only one in town doing the public video debunking.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 12:22:53 pm

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on August 24, 2015, 12:19:20 pm

Just one final video, just one! Film yourself watching it live and comment on the go if you don't want to waste more time!

I thought about that, but that would not be very worthwhile and concise for people who want to learn. It would end up as a mess of a long video, it's a bad idea for such technical things.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 12:30:59 pm

The next video could be with the batteriser under real tests.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on August 24, 2015, 12:36:49 pm

Quote from: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 12:30:59 pm

The next video could be with the batteriser under real tests.

Alexander.

No one has an actual Batteriser, but there must be people on here with 1.5v boost converters kicking around that they could play with?

An AA cell in a device, time how long it runs for. Then a new AA -> boost converter -> device.  Simples! 😀

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 12:40:22 pm

Their campaign was "successful" so the product will be out.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 12:45:00 pm

Quote from: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 12:40:22 pm

Their campaign was "successful" so the product will be out.

If they don't have any issues with production.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on August 24, 2015, 12:51:07 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 12:45:00 pm

Quote from: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 12:40:22 pm

Their campaign was "successful" so the product will be out.

If they don't have any issues with production.

Like the device doesn't increase the available energy from the batteries by 80% ie. the battery capacity available will be less than promised 1.80 * nominal battery capacity?  :P

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 01:33:52 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on August 24, 2015, 12:51:07 pm

Like the device doesn't increase the available energy from the batteries by 80% ie. the battery capacity available will be less than promised 1.80 * nominal battery capacity?  :P

Where did you get the 80% number from? Batteriser gives you 800%, not 80%.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on August 24, 2015, 01:42:52 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 01:33:52 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on August 24, 2015, 12:51:07 pm

Like the device doesn't increase the available energy from the batteries by 80% ie. the battery capacity available will be less than promised 1.80 * nominal battery capacity?  :P

Where did you get the 80% number from? Batteriser gives you 800%, not 80%.

Maybe I missed just one zero. But as we speak about the Batteriser, zeros don't count.  :P

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 01:49:27 pm

My main problem with Bob and his brother (or even the Chris one) is that they seems to really believe what they are saying.

There is no way you could do a 40min video like that, showing your face without believing for even 1ns on what you are saying.

The main problem is that this person have a really basic knowledge of what EE is, discovered some stuff recently, but never work on real hardware design, and believe they found THE solution, as their test are completely flawed that they give them false confidence in what they claim..

maybe 10 or 15 years ago I would may have thought the same thing about the spike that "make the device stop" but since, I've learn thing, look how device are designed, done some design myself (not a lot that's true, but work on some design by others, event crapish Chinese design) or better watch Dave's YT channel, and learn things, taught myself, learn from other experience, and even if some part of what they say is true, seeing the "unintentional" scam around is clear.

In fact, they are not thinking outside the box, they are completely inside the box, so deep inside that they can't see how false they are...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on August 24, 2015, 02:01:20 pm

Quote from: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 01:49:27 pm

In fact, they are not thinking outside the box, they are completely inside the box, so deep inside that they can't see how false they are...

Most definitely thay are thinking outside the box. Outside the box called "practical reality".

Anyway, they got the funds to start production. Max. 10% - 20% of the customers will bother asking for a refund, so they will still have the 80% - 90% profit in their pockets.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 02:17:02 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on August 24, 2015, 02:01:20 pm

Quote from: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 01:49:27 pm

In fact, they are not thinking outside the box, they are completely inside the box, so deep inside that they can't see how false they are...

Most definitely thay are thinking outside the box. Outside the box called "practical reality".

Or maybe *we* are outside the box of "reality distortion field"

At least theirs are not as strong and good as Jobs' one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 24, 2015, 02:33:34 pm

At 9:33, Frankie demonstrates on YouTube for the whole world to see that the essence of their claims is that the Batteriser is an over-unity device.

Frankie is either deliberately or ignorantly confusing the voltage at the device's (Batteriser's output/device input) terminals with the voltage at the battery's terminals. The voltage at the battery's terminals DOES NOT GO UP because the Batteriser is attached. That voltage must go down due to the increased current draw in order to boost the voltage at the device terminals.

This so bad it's hard to find adjectives. Batteroo just invalidated at least some of their patent claims. By themselves. On YouTube. 

 :palm: :palm: :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hugoneus on August 24, 2015, 03:24:00 pm

Nothing says "We are making scientific, verifiable and honest claims" better than when you disable YouTube rating and comments.

Batterriser you are an embarrassment to the field of engineering.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 03:32:13 pm

I start to think that he beleive that as the batteratruc is forcing the output voltage to 1.5V, that why "constant current" form a rectangle, and why only a rectangle is the only way to calculate the remaining power.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 24, 2015, 04:15:06 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 12:45:00 pm

If they don't have any issues with production.

This was just an attempt to dazzle us with Dr. Bob's résumé, it's just a bunch of smoke and mirrors to obfuscate and confuse. There is no way to debate with them because they are not interested in truth, they are just seeing this as an advertising/pr campaign. They will never admit they are wrong, not even when pigs fly.

I was looking forward to some real eevblog tests of the batteriser though, but yea that assumed there will ever be a real product.  :-\

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 04:42:49 pm

They have disabled comments for all of the videos.

Also I can see a Thumbs Up/Down number. Why? Because of the comments being disabled?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on August 24, 2015, 05:15:24 pm

They are engaged in damage control. Disabling comments, deleting comments are telltale signs of panic.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on August 24, 2015, 05:26:33 pm

Quote from: meeder on August 24, 2015, 05:15:24 pm

They are engaged in damage control. Disabling comments, deleting comments are telltale signs of panic.

But why should they panic now?
Their goal was to raise $30,000 and they are now at $ 273,150
So, no matter what they do, they will have a quarter million in their pocket in a coupe of days.

The problem starts when they make this thing and people will return it and eventually there will possible a class action law suit against the corporation for misleading.
But for now, they are just fine.

It really is an embarrassment for the real world of engineering.
 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr-Beamer on August 24, 2015, 05:28:05 pm

nuff said
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=167438)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 24, 2015, 05:41:20 pm

Quote from: HighVoltage on August 24, 2015, 05:26:33 pm

Quote from: meeder on August 24, 2015, 05:15:24 pm

They are engaged in damage control. Disabling comments, deleting comments are telltale signs of panic.

But why should they panic now?
Their goal was to raise $30,000 and they are now at $ 273,150
So, no matter what they do, they will have a quarter million in their pocket in a coupe of days.

They're crapping themselves because their backers, SK Telecom, are pissed. The goal isn't to make Batterisers. The goal is a second round of funding followed by an IPO. As of now, that isn't possible. Their retail channel partners have obviously abandoned them.

And that money from IndieGoGo is more of a liability than anything. They're better off giving refunds at this point. They're in this never never land of having orders and fair bit of them, but not enough orders to not tape a dollar bill or three to every order. No CM is going to buy  and stock the MOQs necessary for the Batteriser's price point without Batteroo taking liability. And Batteroo doesn't have the assets to do it themselves.

It's a total nightmare for these guys. If they have any smarts, they'll pull the plug.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on August 24, 2015, 05:54:46 pm

Quote from: meeder on August 24, 2015, 05:15:24 pm

They are engaged in damage control. Disabling comments, deleting comments are telltale signs of panic.

They even removed the "Discussion" area from their YouTube page.  Not that they were allowing public comments there either, but it at least provided a convenient way for me to ask them how I am supposed to ask questions (like they promised) about the new video, and also to point out to them that there is no reason for them to disable comments if their claims are true and can be backed up, since a large community of EE's would happily chime in and correct naysayers who would make non-factual statements.  So if they really believe what they are saying, there should be no reason at all to disable comments.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 24, 2015, 06:32:41 pm

Quote from: HighVoltage on August 24, 2015, 05:26:33 pm

Their goal was to raise $30,000

That was never a real goal. $30,000 will go nowhere when you're trying to mass produce something like the batterizer.

Besides, they had $1 million in funding six months ago. Why would they need another $30,000?

If there's a 'goal' for the Indiegogo campaign it's to be able to point to a "successful crowdfunding" as part of their scam (hoping nobody notices it was a fake campaign because they already had some venture capitalists behind them).

Pretty soon people are going to want to own their own batterizers. As soon they have to deliver the IndieGoGo rewards the game is up. I'm expecting about 60% of the normal battery life except for very low power devices. People will surely notice that. Anybody really expecting 8x battery life is going to be very disappointed.

After that it only takes one major news story or one syndicated TV program to totally destroy them as far as an IPO, a big military contract, ...or whatever other plan they have in mind goes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hugoneus on August 24, 2015, 06:47:46 pm

I really hope that Dave makes a response video to this.  O0 I know at this point it is a waste of his time, but it would be so entertaining.

And thanks Dave for all that you have done already. :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SundayProgrammer on August 24, 2015, 06:53:50 pm

Still no video of Batteriser in action? Come on... Enough chitchat, Bob. If you actually have a working prototype or a final product you would show the clapping monkey with Batteriser already.
This is a hoax and they keep it alive as long as possible to collect investors' money (and laugh all the way to bank). Are we involved in keeping this hoax alive by keep on analyzing this...

Axel.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 24, 2015, 07:22:16 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 12:10:38 pm

If I'm throwing away batteries with unknown capacity left, it's because I'm going away, and want new batteries in my digital camera, or I've removed them from a device that I haven't used, or don't plan to use, for a while, and don't want to risk them leaking...

Other than that, they get left in devices till they'll no longer function, at which point the cells are depleted!

Likewise, especially when I'm doing anything with my audio/video gear. Fresh batteries every time I use them. I don't bother checking the state of the 'used' ones. In most cases they are probably half empty or less.

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 12:20:51 pm

Quote from: Delta on August 24, 2015, 12:14:49 pm

Bollocks to that Dave!  Keep prodding them until they admit defeat!

It gets tiring, like debating young earth creationists. It's fun for a while and then you just have to give up.
I won't get around to doing a responsive video for quite a while on this one (if I have the enthusiasm after watching it), too much else going on.
It would be great if others could also pick up the baton. I can't be the only one in town doing the public video debunking.

What about mini-Dave? Does a uni student know more than Batteriser's "engineers"? My bets are on Dave ;-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 24, 2015, 07:23:34 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on August 24, 2015, 02:01:20 pm

Anyway, they got the funds to start production. Max. 10% - 20% of the customers will bother asking for a refund, so they will still have the 80% - 90% profit in their pockets.

So that's the residual 80% they've been talking about all along! Finally it's starting to make sense :D

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on August 24, 2015, 08:53:40 pm

Quote from: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 01:49:27 pm

There is no way you could do a 40min video like that, showing your face without believing for even 1ns on what you are saying.

there is $1M ways I would do it, naked, while singing Mariah Carey, badly!


edit: they disabled ratings and comments on videos, that leaves only one option : More / Report / Spam or misleading / SCAMS or FRAUD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 24, 2015, 09:31:50 pm

 |O  At this point, I agree with Dave as well.... I am just getting a headache from all this!  |O

Let's put a reminder in our calendars for 3 months and then do a video on the *** ACTUAL BATTERISER *** once it gets delivered to your hands. They are AT THE END of their IndieGogo campaign. The flame war is getting stronger and stronger, and I can see why Dave doesn't want to be dragged into this pissy impossible-to-win debate any longer. It's starting to get TOO PERSONAL and no longer about the Engineering/Science.   :box:

I VOTE FOR 1 MORE VIDEO IN 3 MONTHS!   :popcorn:  Then we watch!

Batteriser *ACTUAL* teardown and *ACTUAL* performance testing on a number of different devices. Now that is the only video I want to ever see again regarding Batteriser.


Here are some other campaigns I'm watching (which have been funded) which I set a reminder to check up on in a few years:

- The Light Phone
- Airing

No point looking at them every day. Waste of time. In 2 years we will see the results.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 09:46:08 pm

Quote from: Hugoneus on August 24, 2015, 06:47:46 pm

I really hope that Dave makes a response video to this.  O0 I know at this point it is a waste of his time, but it would be so entertaining.

And thanks Dave for all that you have done already. :)

Couldn't you make a response (like the one for over unity)? It will become too personal and arduous for a single person busting their claims.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:10:31 pm

Quote from: Rasz on August 24, 2015, 08:53:40 pm

edit: they disabled ratings and comments on videos

Ah, yes, now disabled comments on ALL their videos. All previous comments gone.
They obviously were totally embarrassed by that idiot "fan" threatening people so they pulled the plug on everything to shut him/them up.
Good move on their part, but now that makes them look even more dodgy than what they already do.
Rock and a hard place.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 10:15:35 pm

What about the number of Up/Down thumbs?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:19:24 pm

Quote from: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 09:46:08 pm

Quote from: Hugoneus on August 24, 2015, 06:47:46 pm

I really hope that Dave makes a response video to this.  O0 I know at this point it is a waste of his time, but it would be so entertaining.
And thanks Dave for all that you have done already. :)

Couldn't you make a response (like the one for over unity)? It will become too personal and arduous for a single person busting their claims.

Yes, got to be careful not to make this personal. It's not personal of course, but it can certainly come across that way.
I've got an idea for a response video.
As I understand it (still haven't watch it all) their major claim now (they keep moving the goal posts, it's so hard to keep up) is that pulse currents cause product dropouts due to IR.
Ok, fair enough claim, so take a bunch of products like I did in my original video and capture the battery voltage (no need for the current) with the product working on near dead batteries (so the IR is highest). See if:
a) There are any significant battery voltage dips at all
and
b) If there are dips, do they cause the product to fail?

So once again show if the Batteriser, by demonstration, is suitable for all products, or just a few edge cases.
And of course (as I understand it), they haven't demonstrated that the Batteriser does anything to actually help dips like this anyway. It's all just whiteboard hand waving.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:23:27 pm

Quote from: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 10:15:35 pm

What about the number of Up/Down thumbs?

Nope, the Thumbs are gone too on all videos.
http://movie-sounds.org/quotes/indylostark/Wiped-clean-by-the-wrath-of-God.mp3 (http://movie-sounds.org/quotes/indylostark/Wiped-clean-by-the-wrath-of-God.mp3)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hugoneus on August 24, 2015, 10:32:29 pm

Thanks Dave. You are right that it is important to not give the illusion that this is personal, it really isn't. If this product actually worked we would be praising it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:35:33 pm

Quote from: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 03:32:13 pm

I start to think that he beleive that as the batteratruc is forcing the output voltage to 1.5V, that why "constant current" form a rectangle, and why only a rectangle is the only way to calculate the remaining power.

I've watched that bit and understand what he's trying to say here (that with CC (with some error) (and CW) you can just read the % remaining from the X axis), and what's he's trying to say is essentially right. But it's a poor way to explain it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:39:48 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 24, 2015, 05:41:20 pm

Quote from: HighVoltage on August 24, 2015, 05:26:33 pm

Quote from: meeder on August 24, 2015, 05:15:24 pm

They are engaged in damage control. Disabling comments, deleting comments are telltale signs of panic.

But why should they panic now?
Their goal was to raise $30,000 and they are now at $ 273,150
So, no matter what they do, they will have a quarter million in their pocket in a coupe of days.

They're crapping themselves because their backers, SK Telecom, are pissed. The goal isn't to make Batterisers. The goal is a second round of funding followed by an IPO. As of now, that isn't possible. Their retail channel partners have obviously abandoned them.

Yep, my money is on that scenario.

Quote

And that money from IndieGoGo is more of a liability than anything. They're better off giving refunds at this point. They're in this never never land of having orders and fair bit of them, but not enough orders to not tape a dollar bill or three to every order. No CM is going to buy  and stock the MOQs necessary for the Batteriser's price point without Batteroo taking liability. And Batteroo doesn't have the assets to do it themselves.

That is quite possible, and that is very common in the startup/crowd funding hardware world. This is discussed on the Amp Hour all the time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 24, 2015, 10:40:15 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:19:24 pm

Quote from: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 09:46:08 pm

Quote from: Hugoneus on August 24, 2015, 06:47:46 pm

I really hope that Dave makes a response video to this.  O0 I know at this point it is a waste of his time, but it would be so entertaining.
And thanks Dave for all that you have done already. :)

Couldn't you make a response (like the one for over unity)? It will become too personal and arduous for a single person busting their claims.

Yes, got to be careful not to make this personal. It's not personal of course, but it can certainly come across that way.
I've got an idea for a response video.
As I understand it (still haven't watch it all) their major claim now (they keep moving the goal posts, it's so hard to keep up) is that pulse currents cause product dropouts due to IR.

The problem is that Brothers Roohparvar are changing their YouTube claims while maintaining their (largely) original and demonstrably false claims on their website and IGG page.  I don't see why anyone should to chase this new claim.  It's a waste of time. Nothing changes the essential fact that their *premises* are utterly flawed:

The devices they are showing on their site are NOT leaving 80% of the energy unused in an alkaline cell.  There is no 800% or whatever the number is today of runtime to recover out of a cell that a device has run to 1.1V or less. 

Lastly, the Batteriser is utterly, unmistakably in the over-unity device category now.  Frankie's whiteboard explanation illustrates clearly that is what they are claiming.  There really doesn't need to be another video debunking because Batteroo thoroughly debunked themselves in under ten minutes. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 24, 2015, 10:54:04 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:19:24 pm

So once again show if the Batteriser, by demonstration, is suitable for all products, or just a few edge cases.
And of course (as I understand it), they haven't demonstrated that the Batteriser does anything to actually help dips like this anyway. It's all just whiteboard hand waving.

They tried to demonstrate this for the Garmin Approach G3 device, which they repeated in this video and in great unnecessary detail with scope diagrams, but failed, because for all what we know, it didn't stop functioning when it shows the message that the backlight is turned off, as they claimed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 11:49:04 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:35:33 pm

Quote from: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 03:32:13 pm

I start to think that he beleive that as the batteratruc is forcing the output voltage to 1.5V, that why "constant current" form a rectangle, and why only a rectangle is the only way to calculate the remaining power.

I've watched that bit and understand what he's trying to say here (that with CC (with some error) (and CW) you can just read the % remaining from the X axis), and what's he's trying to say is essentially right. But it's a poor way to explain it.

Hum, you mean that for example, if with at a specified constant current or power, the deplete in 100 hour (to make thing simpler) , when we are at 50h of use, basically, it remain 50% of the battery?
Then at 90h it only remain 10%?

Hum make sense in a way

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: _Andrew_ on August 24, 2015, 11:51:11 pm

46 minutes of marketing smoke

OK so they have found a device that is susceptible to becoming unstable due to self generated impulse currents pulling down the battery voltage below a voltage at which it can not opperate.

Still right at the beginning they still show footage a battery being tested off load.

Agrees that at an average cut off voltage of 1.1v that there may be for instance be 10% of the battery charge left but then argues about which is the correct part of the curve to look at when determining remaining charge. So agrees that the arguments that have been presented are correct about the amount of remaining charge are correct, wrong and correct.

A point they made clear is that from the outset there clames have made using mathematical models as it was not viable to conduct actual real life testing as it would have taken to long. Funny that, when I have been involved with product development, putting the design through its paces with real life testing has been a vital part of the development.

There still also missing the point that well designed battery operated electronic devices commonly already have boost converters in them to eek out as much life as possible from the batteries. 

I still wonder how many products there going to have to pay for to be repaired or replace when the cells get stuck inside because the sleeves make the cells diameter to wide.

So OK there product probably does function, may assist electronic devices that do not take advantage of boost converters in there design. Where it has got messy is firstly they made to grander clames at the outset, secondly over estimating the typical cutoff voltage (and subsequently the remaining un-used charge), thirdly measuring the battery voltage not under load.

They will probably still sell them, quite possibly on late those night info-mercial channels or re-branded under JML products. Shift a load and then project there future sales on these results, sell the company to someone else, then start another company and launch another product and do the same again.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 25, 2015, 01:14:54 am

Can someone please explain what is happening at 9:20 in the new video? I see a Voltage vs. Time graph (discharge curve), and then the area under the graph representing the "energy left" in the battery? But then he starts drawing milliAmps where the Volt axis is. I'm very confused.

What I understand is that "Volts x Time" is meaningless without understanding the current draw. So it really is "Amps x Time" that is important to rate capacity? MilliAmpHours? Is that what is going on here? And he is saying that he can just use the same 100 mA draw all along the entire voltage discharge curve (whether boosting or limiting) and expect the curve to follow the same curve?

Then later at 10:50 he goes over how higher amperage drawing devices you get worse milliAmpHour ratings due to inefficiencies in the battery (probably chemical reaction inefficiencies due to higher and slower rate and diffusion characteristics of the chemicals in the battery). So lower current draw means longer use of battery which ends up giving you better milliAmpHour rating.

But devices draw the current they need to function, no? Isn't that a product of their internal resistance/load and the voltage being applied to the device? If you want to lower the current draw you will need to have a current limiter which will need to starve the device of current. But how would you know how much to starve it so it still works? And if you are limiting current but increasing voltage, is that the idea behind Batteriser?

So basically, by reducing or "buffering" the current draw by reducing the current pulses/spikes, you reduce the drops in voltage (or "even out" the voltage variations) and therefore keep longer above the cutoff voltage so avoid spikes causing it to shut off. Current sensor and limiter..... Not a voltage booster at all? Just indirectly boosting voltage as a side-effect of sensing voltage and limiting current (while still trying to keep the device working) to keep the battery voltage as high as possible for long as possible?

And so the premise here is that the Batteriser will work best on devices which have more variations or "glitches" in the current draw, versus devices that have very minimal swings in current draw?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 01:20:27 am

Quote from: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 11:49:04 pm

Hum, you mean that for example, if with at a specified constant current or power, the deplete in 100 hour (to make thing simpler) , when we are at 50h of use, basically, it remain 50% of the battery?
Then at 90h it only remain 10%?
Hum make sense in a way

For constant power, yes, absolutely, that's how it works. Because battery capacity of measured in Wh, and you are draining at a constant Wh.
Of course, in practice with a boost converter like the Batteriser, nothing will ever be constant power because of the efficiency curve, but that's beside the point here.
For a constant current, no. But as I've shown in a recent video, and on that graph, the slope is fairly linear, but it's a close approximation.
So what he's (I think) getting at is essentially correct. But once again, it's exactly the same thing I've been saying and showing. Nothing new here at all, his point is pointless. And he made no mention of constant power and how that works. Why he'd omit easy and obvious explanation I don't know.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 01:21:31 am

A viewer sent in the real thing!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNNy5COU8AEEgTj.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pickle9000 on August 25, 2015, 01:24:48 am

Awesome monkey!!!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 25, 2015, 01:49:00 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 01:21:31 am

A viewer sent in the real thing!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNNy5COU8AEEgTj.jpg)

So the question begs Dave... are you now "A monkey's uncle"?  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 25, 2015, 01:57:00 am

Quote from: edy on August 25, 2015, 01:14:54 am

What I understand is that "Volts x Time" is meaningless without understanding the current draw. So it really is "Amps x Time" that is important to rate capacity? MilliAmpHours? Is that what is going on here? And he is saying that he can just use the same 100 mA draw all along the entire voltage discharge curve (whether boosting or limiting) and expect the curve to follow the same curve?

Using the area under the current line would make sense only if the device uses constant current, and even their test with the Garmin device shows rising current, because probably the Garmin device has an internal boost converter and needs constant power, not constant current:
(http://i.imgur.com/00ZrUk6.png)
So for most devices it is wrong to use the constant current chart to estimate battery runtime, but you should use the constant power chart, which you can find in most battery datasheets, too.

They are trying to make the video look scientific, but they are just distracting from the main questions: they don't say anything about the batteriser performance. Just a simple test would be sufficient: How long runs the monkey with normal batteries and with the batteriser? I guess with the batteriser it would run shorter, if it runs at all because of the high current draw, and of course they can't show this.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 25, 2015, 02:29:17 am

It does look scientific. They almost had me convinced!   :phew:

The most simple summary explanation I can come up with here is that the Batteriser smooths out current draw from the battery, limiting "spikes" or "glitches" as they call them, which in turn results in a SMOOTHER voltage discharge curve whose variations take longer to eventually get close to dipping below the cutoff voltage, thus saving the device from just "powering off suddenly".

But what happens when a device needs a certain current to function? They are basically saying the Batteriser acts like a "power supply" voltage source in that it keeps a constant minimal voltage while somehow being able to supply whatever variation in current is demanded by the product without any dip in voltage.  Assuming it could magically isolate the device and battery so that current draws don't affect battery voltage, where is the extra "energy" coming from?

The Batteriser is tiny, where is it storing a current source that it can release at will whenever the device demands it? So that it protects the battery from seeing that current draw and shields it from having a voltage drop? Or am I over-thinking this? Is it just a matter of boosting the voltage which in turn still results in the same variations in voltage as the current draw varies, but just higher (shifted up) so it doesn't hit a cutoff voltage? Why can I not understand this?  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on August 25, 2015, 03:04:13 am

(http://i.imgur.com/ZkQXjK5.gif)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on August 25, 2015, 04:04:38 am

Hi,

I have a built a circuit that should be fairly representative of the performance of the Batteriser.

I have posted pictures of the board in this thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739648/#msg739648 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739648/#msg739648)


At Vin =1.1, Vout =1.5V, Iout=250mA I measured 81% efficiency.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 04:36:29 am

Quote from: edy on August 25, 2015, 02:29:17 am

But what happens when a device needs a certain current to function? They are basically saying the Batteriser acts like a "power supply" voltage source in that it keeps a constant minimal voltage while somehow being able to supply whatever variation in current is demanded by the product without any dip in voltage.  Assuming it could magically isolate the device and battery so that current draws don't affect battery voltage, where is the extra "energy" coming from?
The Batteriser is tiny, where is it storing a current source that it can release at will whenever the device demands it?

Bingo.
You canna change the laws of physics captain.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: joseph.anand on August 25, 2015, 07:33:25 am

I think we need to summarize the issues with the Batteriser, and just let it die a natural death. I am attempting to summarize them here. Others can just add to this and we can be done with it.
1. With most decent devices already having boost regulators adding another one in the equation is just a waste of energy.
2. With devices using multiple cells, each cell having a boost regulator is a bad idea. This is why most devices have a single boost regulator for batteries connected in series (or parallel - yet to see devices using batteries in parallel).
3. Most devices use battery voltage to detect the battery level. Now using a batteriser you will have no idea of the actual battery level.

Now the issues with the technicality of their claims:
1. For all their "area under constant current curve nonsense", one needs to estimate the actual energy (in %) left. For a constant current load, you can instead estimate the area under the voltage curve. Simple basic maths W=VI. For those "PhD Professors who are consultants to Batteriser" this is Power= Volts x Current. Power = Energy/Time. 


Other readers can add to this, and bring this to a close. If you can put a point more succinctly than what I have, kindly replace yours with mine. This way  we can actually debunk this as and when the product releases and then we can all with our smug faces gift the Batteriser team with "We told you so" t-shirt.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on August 25, 2015, 07:53:36 am

I'd like to add:

'There's bugger-all energy left'

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 25, 2015, 08:48:25 am

Quote from: Bud on August 25, 2015, 03:04:13 am

(http://i.imgur.com/ZkQXjK5.gif)

Clapping cymbals monkey - A new design for an EEVblog shirt perhaps?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daqq on August 25, 2015, 08:52:33 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 12:45:00 pm

Quote from: firewalker on August 24, 2015, 12:40:22 pm

Their campaign was "successful" so the product will be out.

If they don't have any issues with production.

Or reality or the laws of physics... at the end of the day you'll get a bunch of crappy products that are useful for 20 ppm of products available, make good on their claims only with the right interpretation of weaselspeak.

I'm probably being naive, but it seems a wonderful object lesson in listening to engineers and peer review for the people who bought it, expecting their magic monkeys to last 8 times longer on just as crappy batteries. On the other hand, human stupidity is a VERY deep well...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 25, 2015, 09:02:33 am

Quote from: joseph.anand on August 25, 2015, 07:33:25 am

Other readers can add to this, and bring this to a close. If you can put a point more succinctly than what I have, kindly replace yours with mine. This way  we can actually debunk this as and when the product releases and then we can all with our smug faces gift the Batteriser team with "We told you so" t-shirt.

The biggest issue will be that it simply doesn't work as claimed. If it did, they would have shoved a couple up the monkey's butt and showed it coming back to life.

They didn't do that because they can't. This whole product is based on a lie. There's no need for maths and equations if it fails the basic sniff test. Everybody going into nerd-speak is exactly what they want from this video - the nerds aren't their target market.

Keep the argument against them simple. They still haven't actually shown a batteriser working in one of their videos (apart from the Apple keyboard, but they didn't show extended life, only the battery indicator level going up for a few seconds).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 25, 2015, 09:13:26 am

https://youtu.be/95AAOZGjuIc

;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 25, 2015, 09:50:20 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 24, 2015, 10:39:58 am

Do they mention or show the pulse response of the Batterieser?
Do they mention or show the efficiency response curve of the Battersier?
I fully expected this "be-all end-all" technical videos for "real engineers" to include at least that stuff.

They show some story about a snail in a pit and some numbers.
He clearly does not target engineers and other (useful) higher educated people.

He keeps on targeting his customer base, like other salesmen do.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 25, 2015, 09:59:37 am

Quote from: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 01:49:27 pm

My main problem with Bob and his brother (or even the Chris one) is that they seems to really believe what they are saying...

There are courses for that. Called Law/Sales/Banker/Commercial engineer/Marketing/Poker/Management.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 25, 2015, 10:54:51 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 25, 2015, 09:13:26 am

https://youtu.be/95AAOZGjuIc (https://youtu.be/95AAOZGjuIc)

;)

Umm... I made a few more videos with this setup...

Firstly, testing without a boost circuit... the boost circuit I ended up using is found here:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/201397293506 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/201397293506)

Modified to output 3.2volts, it happily did 500ma, with down to 1.8volts input (two cells in series) ( I didn't test it beyond this current), I'd measured it to do between 60 and 90% efficiency or so, depending on the input voltage, and output current.

Without the boost circuit, the camera, with forced flash, took 90 photos...

But now, guess how many it too with the boost circuit, using brand new cells?

(I'll upload the first video now, its not very interesting)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on August 25, 2015, 11:06:21 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 25, 2015, 09:02:33 am

The biggest issue will be that it simply doesn't work as claimed.

Well it does, but you have to decode the marketing B.S. from their claims.

What they are saying is that the Batteriser can tap into the 80% of energy (or voltage using their parlance) still left in alkaline batteries that are thrown away.  Sounds great until you read this paper that they threw at us:

http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)

that does actually claim that SOME batteries contain over 80% of usuable energy left (and actually using accepted scientific principles)

of course they fail to mention the conclusions reached in this paper about WHY practically new batteries are thrown out which have nothing to do with monkeys failing to clap or GPS units screens' dimming.

So technically speaking, using the Batteriser can help you tap into this 80% of remaining energy.  Hell, not sure why they said 80%, the Zinniker paper found that 10% of the batteries in the study had 103% of energy left in them, which by Batteriser standards comprises a "significant" number (you'll have to read the paper for an explanation of why it's >100%)

Of course not doing anything other than taking that recycled battery and sticking it into a TV remote or even a clapping monkey can also help you tap into this 80% of remaining energy.  But that's not the point.  Batteroo is not obligated to tell you that.

Forget the talk about miniaturization and boost converter efficiency and the size of their inductor and whether 0.1mm clearance is enough...they could build a simple battery sleeve and nothing more and it would still meet their claim on the Indiegogo page, about 20% of the time if you get your batteries out of recycle bins in Switzerland from the year 2002.

Hold the presses!

I just went to Rolf Zinniker's site and while I don't speak German (so I have no idea what this is referring to), he's got this image on his site:

(http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/Battere_h250.jpg)

WTF is it with these battery guys and monkeys?  Seriously!  Dave, are you SURE that the proper way to test a battery is NOT with a clapping monkey?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 25, 2015, 11:07:23 am

The above power converter ha a huge inductor/capacitors compared to batteriser.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 25, 2015, 11:10:20 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 25, 2015, 11:07:23 am

The above power converter ha a huge inductor/capacitors compared to batteriser.

Alexander.

Yes it does, impossibly big to fit on top of a aa cell, let alone a AAA...

So do you expect more photos? Less, or the same?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on August 25, 2015, 11:17:08 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 25, 2015, 10:54:51 am

Without the boost circuit, the camera, with forced flash, took 90 photos...

I hope you are using a camera from no later than 2001 to replicate the data the Batteroo people use to justify their claims.  Wouldn't want any of this modern battery management system rubbish, or lower power memory cards or anything like that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on August 25, 2015, 11:22:21 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 25, 2015, 11:10:20 am

So do you expect more photos? Less, or the same?

The boost-converter's efficiency is about 80% - 90%, which can be compensated by the fact that the boost converter can drain battery a bit more than the camera can. However, from the battery discharge curves we can see that as the current is increased the total energy available from the battery will be less. So, in this sense you will get less photos with the boost-converter unless the cameras's cut-off voltage is insanely high. I would guess that you got 75 photos instead of 90.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 25, 2015, 11:26:19 am

Well, with the boost converter, I got zero photos... well, technically one photo, but it never managed to save it, as the current spike from the capacitor charging up for the flash caused a dip in voltage, and the battery cut off to be prematurely triggered...  :-DD

Brilliant!

Of course, the butteriser might be able to do 2 amps without dropping below 1.1volts :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on August 25, 2015, 11:29:19 am

Quote from: lpickup on August 25, 2015, 11:17:08 am

I hope you are using a camera from no later than 2001 to replicate the data the Batteroo people use to justify their claims. 

Jesting aside, I don't necessarily have a problem with using older hardware as the basis for this kind of test.  After all, people actually do have older cameras around that they still use, so a theoretical device that could extend the life of those products would in fact be useful.  But even by my standards (I'm cheap and keep stuff forever), 2001 is ancient, and more importantly this was pretty much at the beginning of the digital camera revolution.  Purpose built digital cameras only first came out in the very late 90's, and they were probably far more concerned with getting the image sensors and picture storage working, not power management.

It looks like the camera you are using is a probably very adequate for the purpose of this test.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 11:30:09 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 25, 2015, 11:26:19 am

Of course, the butteriser might be able to do 2 amps without dropping below 1.1volts :-DD

They briefly mentioned 1.5A in a video, but they have provided no evidence of that, no formal specs, no test data, no efficiency curves, no pulse response data, nothing.
We haven't even seen them use it in a high pulse drain device.
So we have absolutely nothing to go on.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 25, 2015, 11:43:19 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 25, 2015, 11:10:20 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 25, 2015, 11:07:23 am

The above power converter ha a huge inductor/capacitors compared to batteriser.

Alexander.

Yes it does, impossibly big to fit on top of a aa cell, let alone a AAA...

So do you expect more photos? Less, or the same?

I expect batteriser to be worse.

Almost certain their switching frequency must be well in the MHz scale. What about EMI?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on August 25, 2015, 11:49:28 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 11:30:09 am

So we have absolutely nothing to go on.

A perfect scenario in their minds.

It’s amazing how much faq/advertising/videos they can produce and still reveal so little (true) facts.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 25, 2015, 11:57:52 am

https://youtu.be/U6ZBcU7GJBA

And I'm done with my testing, it just doesn't work!

I've tried two small boost regulators, neither was even able to run the camera.

Unless they're pulling current out of a monkeys butt, it isn't going to work!

It's possible it would have run the camera without a flash, but if it only works in some devices, under some conditions, assuming it actually physically fits, even then you're not going to see any benefit from it!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 25, 2015, 12:28:22 pm

Quote from: lpickup on August 25, 2015, 11:06:21 am

Hold the presses!

I just went to Peter Zinniker's site and while I don't speak German (so I have no idea what this is referring to), he's got this image on his site:

(http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/Battere_h250.jpg)

WTF is it with these battery guys and monkeys?  Seriously!  Dave, are you SURE that the proper way to test a battery is NOT with a clapping monkey?

The picture on Rolf (not Peter) Zinnikers page is actually just reporting about a company that rents out batteries to you instead of you buying them. The Monkey is their company logo.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 25, 2015, 12:58:07 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 11:30:09 am

They briefly mentioned 1.5A in a video, but they have provided no evidence of that, no formal specs, no test data, no efficiency curves, no pulse response data, nothing.

This makes sense and might be possible with a very efficient boost converter and for short peaks without releasing the magic smoke. Why don't they write it in their FAQ page? Obviously the FAQ is wrong: "the Batteriser sleeve is designed to deliver as much current as a battery is able to supply to the device".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on August 25, 2015, 01:03:00 pm

Quote from: McBryce on August 25, 2015, 12:28:22 pm

The picture on Rolf (not Peter) Zinnikers page

Thanks, fixed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 25, 2015, 01:26:26 pm

It's still a battery related company using a monkey though!  :)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 25, 2015, 01:52:24 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 01:20:27 am

Quote from: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 11:49:04 pm

Hum, you mean that for example, if with at a specified constant current or power, the deplete in 100 hour (to make thing simpler) , when we are at 50h of use, basically, it remain 50% of the battery?
Then at 90h it only remain 10%?
Hum make sense in a way

For constant power, yes, absolutely, that's how it works. Because battery capacity of measured in Wh, and you are draining at a constant Wh.
Of course, in practice with a boost converter like the Batteriser, nothing will ever be constant power because of the efficiency curve, but that's beside the point here.
For a constant current, no. But as I've shown in a recent video, and on that graph, the slope is fairly linear, but it's a close approximation.
So what he's (I think) getting at is essentially correct. But once again, it's exactly the same thing I've been saying and showing. Nothing new here at all, his point is pointless. And he made no mention of constant power and how that works. Why he'd omit easy and obvious explanation I don't know.

I agree with that for constant power, but the problem is on his drawing it was a "constant current" and not power, as he says "100mA constant current"... So a big fail :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on August 25, 2015, 01:59:44 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on August 25, 2015, 08:48:25 am

Quote from: Bud on August 25, 2015, 03:04:13 am

(http://i.imgur.com/ZkQXjK5.gif)

Clapping cymbals monkey - A new design for an EEVblog shirt perhaps?

I wanted to say they may need a new company logo, but your tshirt idea is nice

 :-DD

And the slogan may say something like "We tap into your underused inner" , or perhaps "Feel 80% better!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on August 25, 2015, 02:05:47 pm

How is it possible, that a guy with a Ph.D. can show a constant current over time and calls the area under the curve the energy?

That would only be true, if the voltage is constant during this time as well.
But on the same picture he is showing the voltage going down.
So, it is not a constant power and therefore the area under the current curve can not be the energy.
End of story!

And this guy was teaching EE classes?
I feel sorry for the students.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 25, 2015, 02:08:02 pm

Quote from: Bud on August 25, 2015, 01:59:44 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on August 25, 2015, 08:48:25 am

Quote from: Bud on August 25, 2015, 03:04:13 am

(http://i.imgur.com/ZkQXjK5.gif)

Clapping cymbals monkey - A new design for an EEVblog shirt perhaps?

I wanted to say they may need a new company logo, but your tshirt idea is nice

 :-DD

And the slogan may say something like "We tap into your underused inner" , or perhaps "Feel 80% better!"

I love your slogan!  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on August 25, 2015, 02:32:42 pm

Quote from: HighVoltage on August 25, 2015, 02:05:47 pm

How is it possible, that a guy with a Ph.D. can show a constant current over time and calls the area under the curve the energy?

That would only be true, if the voltage is constant during this time as well.
But on the same picture he is showing the voltage going down.
So, it is not a constant power and therefore the area under the current curve can not be the energy.
End of story!

And this guy was teaching EE classes?
I feel sorry for the students.

Some interesting (https://www.koofers.com/california-state-university-east-bay-csueastbay/instructors/roohparvar-655557/) opinions (http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=671473) of him, presumably(!) by former students, although only on CS courses and no EE ones.  ???

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 25, 2015, 02:35:23 pm

Quote

What they are saying is that the Batteriser can tap into the 80% of energy (or voltage using their parlance) still left in alkaline batteries that are thrown away.  Sounds great until you read this paper that they threw at us:

http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)

that does actually claim that SOME batteries contain over 80% of usuable energy left (and actually using accepted scientific principles)

Actually I downloaded the paper and read it. Aside from many grammatical and spelling errors (I assume due to some bad translation) the paper is not very scientific at all. The references are not scientific studies either. There are a few graphs and tables but honestly, this is NOT a scientific paper written by any scientist. This is not even a Masters thesis. It looks like a high-school science project. I've written better papers and studies in 1st year university Physics.

While there may be some validity to the "recycling" study, I am highly skeptical of the actual testing method used to check the batteries, and there is ABSOLUTELY NO history as to the consumer-use scenario for each of the batteries. So who really knows why they were thrown out?

The average consumer would just stick a Batteriser on the battery and it would yield little to no additional benefit to the battery+Batteriser IN THE SAME DEVICE. What the consumer must be educated about is DOWN-CYCLING batteries into lower-current-draining devices.... A step-down approach, WITHOUT any such Batteriser. That requires EDUCATION.... No device to sell at all.

So without addressing the REAL PROBLEM, people will just continue to throw out batteries from high-current drain devices like MOTORIZED TOYS (due to the significant voltage-drops below cutoff) with or without the Batteriser, when with a little education they will label those batteries and keep them handy for their REMOTE CONTROLS and KEYBOARDS and MICE.

 :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 25, 2015, 02:37:17 pm

Quote from: HighVoltage on August 25, 2015, 02:05:47 pm

How is it possible, that a guy with a Ph.D. can show a constant current over time and calls the area under the curve the energy?

That would only be true, if the voltage is constant during this time as well.
But on the same picture he is showing the voltage going down.
So, it is not a constant power and therefore the area under the current curve can not be the energy.
End of story!

And this guy was teaching EE classes?
I feel sorry for the students.

Well one of his students has already ruined his chances of ever getting a decent job by featuring in the video.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 25, 2015, 02:41:24 pm

Quote from: HighVoltage on August 25, 2015, 02:05:47 pm

How is it possible, that a guy with a Ph.D. can show a constant current over time and calls the area under the curve the energy?

That would only be true, if the voltage is constant during this time as well.
But on the same picture he is showing the voltage going down.
So, it is not a constant power and therefore the area under the current curve can not be the energy.

He doesn't say this. He tries a lot of unrelated weaselspeak. At 9:25 he says "if you really want to know how much is left". He doesn't say "how much energy is left". And of course, for 100 mA constant current, he is right. 50% runtime is left.

PS: I just noticed that at 9:16 in the video he says, "if you use a constant resistor, you can use the area under the curve", which is wrong, because the curve is for constant current, and when the voltage drops, the current would drop, too with a constant resistor.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 25, 2015, 03:13:52 pm

Quote

PS: I just noticed that at 9:16 in the video he says, "if you use a constant resistor, you can use the area under the curve", which is wrong, because the curve is for constant current, and when the voltage drops, the current would drop, too with a constant resistor.

V=IR

V/I = R = constant....    V and I would vary proportionally to keep resistance the same?

I watched the video and I have no idea what he is saying, except the Snail problem was nice. What it has to do with anything, I don't know. But he just wants to show how "smart" he is, and how dumb the viewers are who don't get the right answer..... Ergo.... You, the average person viewing his video, who doesn't have 500 patents and can't solve a simple Snail riddle, is not as intelligent and shouldn't be questioning the Batteriser. The video did leave that taste in my mouth and taught us "newbies" a few things about voltage drops during current spikes, but still answered nothing about what happens in real products and what the Batteriser can magically do to the voltage and current that actually makes it last any longer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 25, 2015, 03:20:14 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on August 25, 2015, 02:41:24 pm

Quote from: HighVoltage on August 25, 2015, 02:05:47 pm

How is it possible, that a guy with a Ph.D. can show a constant current over time and calls the area under the curve the energy?

He doesn't say this. He tries a lot of unrelated weaselspeak. At 9:25 he says "if you really want to know how much is left". He doesn't say "how much energy is left". And of course, for 100 mA constant current, he is right. 50% runtime is left.

Yes, it's a really convoluted thought process. It is technically correct but:

a) Constant current devices will actually waste a LOT of energy if used with a batteriser - the voltage applied to the device will be higher than it needs to be and the excess voltage will be turned directly to heat.

b) His "50%" number is pulled directly from a monkey's butt. He just drew a line on the middle of the chart and said "Look! That's 50% remaining".

If he drew then line at a realistic voltage (eg.) 1.1V then he'd be down in the "about 10% remaining" range, just like before.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 25, 2015, 03:29:35 pm

Quote from: edy on August 25, 2015, 03:13:52 pm

V=IR

V/I = R = constant....    V and I would vary proportionally to keep resistance the same?

Think of a 5V voltage regulator (LM7805) feeding into a 100 Ohm resistor. The output current will be 50mA no matter what the input voltage is (so long as you stay within the working voltage range, obviously). Changes in voltage will only change the amount of heat produced by the regulator.

That's constant current.

Quote from: edy on August 25, 2015, 03:13:52 pm

I watched the video and I have no idea what he is saying, except the Snail problem was nice.

I got the snail problem right with half a second of thought.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 25, 2015, 03:35:17 pm

Quote from: edy on August 25, 2015, 03:13:52 pm

Quote

PS: I just noticed that at 9:16 in the video he says, "if you use a constant resistor, you can use the area under the curve", which is wrong, because the curve is for constant current, and when the voltage drops, the current would drop, too with a constant resistor.

V=IR

V/I = R = constant....    V and I would vary proportionally to keep resistance the same?

Yes, you could say this. V drops over time and then the current drops, too, because I=V/R, so you can't use the curve on the whiteboard, which is for 100 mA constant current. Even a programmer like me can see this :)

Quote from: edy on August 25, 2015, 03:13:52 pm

I watched the video and I have no idea what he is saying, except the Snail problem was nice. What it has to do with anything, I don't know. But he just wants to show how "smart" he is, and how dumb the viewers are who don't get the right answer..... Ergo.... You, the average person viewing his video, who doesn't have 500 patents and can't solve a simple Snail riddle, is not as intelligent and shouldn't be questioning the Batteriser.

Better watch Dave's videos to learn things. The Batteriser guy intentionally demonstrates lots of unrelated things in a convoluted way to avoid showing the Batteriser data.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on August 25, 2015, 03:37:03 pm

Don't worry, their Tom Foolery won't do much against real world testing with the batteriser once they ship the campaign rewards out.

I chose one with a large number of batterisers, and am planning to mail Dave some to play around with.  (Assuming he didn't already support their campaign himself with the same goal of disproving their bullshit 80% claim)

And IIRC, the level I choose gives me a pretty healthy number of units, so if any serious folks out there want in on the fun, let me know and I can mail a set your way.  (well, once they mail them out, whenever that will be)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 25, 2015, 03:38:11 pm

Update: The comments have been re-enabled on the video. My question came back!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 25, 2015, 03:44:57 pm

Quote from: 5ky on August 25, 2015, 03:37:03 pm

well, once they mail them out, whenever that will be

If they mail them out at all... is there even a guarantees for that on indiegogo?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 25, 2015, 03:51:23 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on August 25, 2015, 03:35:17 pm

Better watch Dave's videos to learn things. The Batteriser guy intentionally demonstrates lots of unrelated things in a convoluted way to avoid showing the Batteriser data.

Yes, except for the first 5 min where Dr. Bob tells us his resume and how many patents he has his name on, it was 40 minutes of confusing pointless waffling, even if mostly technically correct (still not sure about the energy under the graph part). Nothing at all about the performance or construction of the batteriser itself. :=\

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 25, 2015, 03:56:26 pm

Quote from: apis on August 25, 2015, 03:44:57 pm

Quote from: 5ky on August 25, 2015, 03:37:03 pm

well, once they mail them out, whenever that will be

If they mail them out at all... is there even a guarantees for that on indiegogo?

I don't think there's a garantee of that on any crowdfunding site.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 25, 2015, 04:01:23 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 25, 2015, 03:56:26 pm

I don't think there's a garantee of that on any crowdfunding site.

Can't you even get a refund in that case?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 25, 2015, 04:05:08 pm

Quote from: 5ky on August 25, 2015, 03:37:03 pm

I chose one with a large number of batterisers, and am planning to mail Dave some to play around with.  (Assuming he didn't already support their campaign himself with the same goal of disproving their bullshit 80% claim)

I think we should start a pool for betting on the conversion efficiency. We could pick a few output currents and whoever gets the closest wins a prize (or something).

10mA output with 1.1V input? I'll say 90% efficient.
50mA output with 1.1V input? I'll say 83%
100mA output with 1.1V input? Only 72% efficient with that tiny inductor.
200mA output with 1.1V input? 55%.
500mA output with 1.1V input? 20% if it even manages to maintain 1.5V output (I have my doubts)

Edit: Just remembered this is a forum full of engineers  :scared:

No cheating by using SPICE or whatever. What does your gut feeling tell you?

(Or post two answers, gut feeling first then SPICE afterwards...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 25, 2015, 04:07:41 pm

Quote from: apis on August 25, 2015, 04:01:23 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 25, 2015, 03:56:26 pm

I don't think there's a garantee of that on any crowdfunding site.

Can't you even get a refund in that case?

Nope. This isn't a grocery store.

You're supposed to evaluate the credibility of the campaign before buyingsending any money.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 25, 2015, 04:48:34 pm

I still see now way they can bring this into mass-production with about *only* $300,000. They are definitely relying on the $1 million+ from Investors to get this rolled out. And they expect this by November? What planet are we living on?

What REALLY seems to be going on here is that everything was already made... 2-3 years ago, and the crowd-funding is all a publicity-making machine. Seems like it is all done... So the question is, who bank-rolled the actual development? Possibly some INVESTOR GROUP that wants to cash out. And is this crowd-funding campaign forced by the Investors to somehow raise enough capital (or so were the hopes) to get their money and bail out, leaving the public crowd-funders holding the bag?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on August 25, 2015, 04:53:34 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on August 25, 2015, 02:41:24 pm

Quote from: HighVoltage on August 25, 2015, 02:05:47 pm

How is it possible, that a guy with a Ph.D. can show a constant current over time and calls the area under the curve the energy?

That would only be true, if the voltage is constant during this time as well.
But on the same picture he is showing the voltage going down.
So, it is not a constant power and therefore the area under the current curve can not be the energy.

He doesn't say this. He tries a lot of unrelated weaselspeak. At 9:25 he says "if you really want to know how much is left". He doesn't say "how much energy is left". And of course, for 100 mA constant current, he is right. 50% runtime is left.

PS: I just noticed that at 9:16 in the video he says, "if you use a constant resistor, you can use the area under the curve", which is wrong, because the curve is for constant current, and when the voltage drops, the current would drop, too with a constant resistor.

Yes, may be ... but...
Well, at 14:: to 14:14 he clearly points to it as "Energy" under the curve.

This guy really must believe that we all are belonging to the 90% group of the people that he believes do not get the riddle.
There are so many flaws in this video, it really is embarrassing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on August 25, 2015, 05:19:45 pm

Now THAT is strange...just went to watch Dave's Maker Faire interviews video and the entire 46 minute Batteriser video came up as the ad!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 25, 2015, 05:21:23 pm

Quote

This guy really must believe that we all are belonging to the 90% group of the people that he believes do not get the riddle.

First time I didn't get the riddle..  |O      :palm:     Need to wake up my brain cells.   :=\   Good thing I'm not developing the Batteriser then.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 25, 2015, 06:08:25 pm

Eventually got around to do some quick tests of battery operated gadgets from around the house. :-/O

Couldn't find so many though, most stuff uses Lithium rechargeable these days:

• Game Boy Color: Still running at about 0,9 V when at highest sound setting and playing a game.
• Headlight: Still bright at < 0,9 V per cell.
• Wireless optical mouse: Still working at 0,25 V per cell.
• Radio-controlled Alarm Clock: 1,1 V per cell (LCD still readable).
• CASIO fx-82LB: LCD still readable at 1,1 V (more than 15 years old, rated 0,0004 W and still using the original CASIO branded alkaline batteries!)
• TI82 Calculator: LCD display still readable at ~ 1,1 V (about 20 years old).
• DECT phone handset: 1,25 V (made for NiMH batteries so not really relevant).

Looks like I won't be needing a Batteriser. :phew:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 25, 2015, 06:13:02 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 25, 2015, 03:38:11 pm

Update: The comments have been re-enabled on the video. My question came back!

It's must have been a mistake that it was disabled. After all Franky specifically asked for our reactions at the end of the video..

Or they just want to get more traffic to the video, to get a higher ranking in the search results on youtube.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hugoneus on August 25, 2015, 07:20:49 pm

Quote from: PeterL on August 25, 2015, 06:13:02 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 25, 2015, 03:38:11 pm

Update: The comments have been re-enabled on the video. My question came back!

It's must have been a mistake that it was disabled. After all Franky specifically asked for our reactions at the end of the video..
Or they just want to get more traffic to the video, to get a higher ranking in the search results on youtube.

I don't see any actual comments.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 25, 2015, 07:33:45 pm

There used to be comments on the others videos. Not anymore.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 25, 2015, 07:44:24 pm

Looks like they deleted all comments. I just tested it on one of my videos: if you turn off comments and then turn it on again, the comments are still there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on August 25, 2015, 07:45:31 pm

Dave, I see a bright future for you doing due-diligence for VC's.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 25, 2015, 07:49:24 pm

Quote from: photon on August 25, 2015, 07:45:31 pm

Dave, I see a bright future for you doing due-diligence for VC's.  :)

The only problem is that virtually no VC wants that. The major issue with the Batteriser is not that it won't help, but that it was so easily shown to be a boobyhatch.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 25, 2015, 08:21:40 pm

I agree. Venture Capitalists are interested in a return on their investment.... not whether something actually works or not. They are only interested in getting back their money with interest and throwing on to the next chum (whether it be other public investors, crowd-funders, another company) to sort it all out.

I think the biggest blunder Batteriser did was then probably to crowd-fund their product. They should have just launched with "TV INFOMMERCIALS" and made money the old fashioned way, without anyone ever having the opportunity or time to critique it. I can see it now... 

"Call now, for a limited time you can get yours for only $9.99. But wait, there's more! And it's not sold in any store! If you are one of the first to call, you will not only get 1 Batteriser... But 2! Yes! Double your order! Not satisfied? We will also throw in this battery tester valued at over $20. Oh hold on... We are going crazy here at the factory. We are willing to give you not 2, but 4! Yes 4! If you call in the next 10 minutes! Do it now before this incredible offer disappears forever! You get 4 Batterisers each valued at $9.99, a battery tester for $20, a total value of almost $60..... All yours for ONLY $9.99 (plus shipping and handling of $14.99 and sales taxes not included)."

 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on August 25, 2015, 09:04:57 pm

Quote from: lpickup on August 25, 2015, 05:19:45 pm

Now THAT is strange...just went to watch Dave's Maker Faire interviews video and the entire 46 minute Batteriser video came up as the ad!

AHAHAHAHAHAHA good joke, would be pretty sweet if it was true tho haha

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 25, 2015, 09:13:44 pm

Quote from: Rasz on August 25, 2015, 09:04:57 pm

Quote from: lpickup on August 25, 2015, 05:19:45 pm

Now THAT is strange...just went to watch Dave's Maker Faire interviews video and the entire 46 minute Batteriser video came up as the ad!

AHAHAHAHAHAHA good joke, would be pretty sweet if it was true tho haha

Google serves up ads based on your profile, so perhaps if we are all typing and searching for Batteriser a lot, there is an opportunity for Batteriser to show up in ads of videos we watch. Batteriser can also target specific keywords for advertising. However funny that would be, I don't think it is worth it for them to spend that kind of money to appear on pages and sites and videos that actual Engineers are watching who know what they are doing. So likely a fluke with your browser shortcut or cache, and not Google or YouTube. :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 25, 2015, 09:30:52 pm

Quote from: edy on August 25, 2015, 04:48:34 pm

What REALLY seems to be going on here is that everything was already made... 2-3 years ago, and the crowd-funding is all a publicity-making machine.

I don't think so.... the lack of a functional AAA version, and the fact that I'm still pretty sure it physically can't be done, makes me believe that nothing is in production, and will never be in production...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 10:55:47 pm

Quote from: edy on August 25, 2015, 04:48:34 pm

What REALLY seems to be going on here is that everything was already made... 2-3 years ago, and the crowd-funding is all a publicity-making machine. Seems like it is all done...

If that is the case then why don't they have real final units to show the media. At least one report from a journalist I've spoken to said the prototype failed in two devices he tried, and they struck it up to being a prototype issue that will be sorted out in production.
Also, if it's already finished, why isn't there any technical data released at all?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 10:59:27 pm

Quote from: PeterL on August 25, 2015, 06:13:02 pm

It's must have been a mistake that it was disabled. After all Franky specifically asked for our reactions at the end of the video..
Or they just want to get more traffic to the video, to get a higher ranking in the search results on youtube.

Well, they got their feedback, 77 thumbs down to 16 thumbs up so far.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on August 25, 2015, 11:07:05 pm

Quote from: edy on August 25, 2015, 09:13:44 pm

Quote from: Rasz on August 25, 2015, 09:04:57 pm

Quote from: lpickup on August 25, 2015, 05:19:45 pm

Now THAT is strange...just went to watch Dave's Maker Faire interviews video and the entire 46 minute Batteriser video came up as the ad!

AHAHAHAHAHAHA good joke, would be pretty sweet if it was true tho haha

Google serves up ads based on your profile, so perhaps if we are all typing and searching for Batteriser a lot, there is an opportunity for Batteriser to show up in ads of videos we watch. Batteriser can also target specific keywords for advertising. However funny that would be, I don't think it is worth it for them to spend that kind of money to appear on pages and sites and videos that actual Engineers are watching who know what they are doing. So likely a fluke with your browser shortcut or cache, and not Google or YouTube. :-)

Absolutely no joke.  I honestly thought Dave was doing a spoof or something, and then I thought I accidentally clicked the wrong video--I was amazed to see actual comments posted given they had disabled them, but couldn't figure out why people were asking about where to get scale mail on a Batteriser video.  That's when I realized it was their ad.

I'm not surprised that it fed me that ad with all the reloads of the GPS video I had been doing to look at comments.  I AM surprised that "Batteroo Batteriser", who disclaims that they are in no way associated with Batteroo, the company that makes Batteriser, would pay $$$, and probably some very serious $$$, to run that video as an ad.  I've never advertised on YouTube, so not sure if there is a premium for longer ads and whether they are charged by how long the viewer watched.  But if so, I hope I cost them some coin as I let it run while I took the screen shot and posted the last post.

I guess it's official though:  Dave, you officially have financially benefited from the Batteriser!

BTW, I doubt that advertisers have too much control over what videos their ads appear on.  It all comes down to what Google/YouTube thinks the viewer is going to want to see based on their browsing history.  Kind of like how Dave's Batteriser vids pop up as the recommended videos for the Batteriser videos.  I watch a lot of Electric Vehicle videos and the ads that come up there are usually for huge Chevy trucks, exactly the opposite type of vehicle I would be interested in, but Google/YouTube is not smart enough to figure that distinction out.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on August 25, 2015, 11:32:00 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 10:55:47 pm

Quote from: edy on August 25, 2015, 04:48:34 pm

What REALLY seems to be going on here is that everything was already made... 2-3 years ago, and the crowd-funding is all a publicity-making machine. Seems like it is all done...

If that is the case then why don't they have real final units to show the media. At least one report from a journalist I've spoken to said the prototype failed in two devices he tried, and they struck it up to being a prototype issue that will be sorted out in production.
Also, if it's already finished, why isn't there any technical data released at all?

I am not surprised that the prototype failed in the device that he tried in. Here are some measurement that I made on my boost converter circuit based on the LTC3539 chip.

First I measured the current consumption of a Fuji Camera, I am not sure of the model, but at least five years old, it use and XD card.

Here is the current consumption while taken a picture with the flash on. The current is 200mA measured with a Tektronix TCP202 dc current probe:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=167734;image)


Same setup without using the flash:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=167736;image)

And the current drawn during start up:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=167738;image)

If I zoom into the peak, I see this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=167740;image)


The batteriser needs to be able supply about 1A of peak current if used in this camera.

So now I know what the peak current looks like I can use an electronic load.

This picture shows the battery terminal (input), blue trace, using the boost circuit:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=167742;image)


Without the boost circuit, the battery terminal voltage looks like this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=167744;image)


The battery voltage drop less without the boost circuit than with.

Note: Some the components I am using are too big to fit in the batteriser clip.

FAIL

for high current devices like digital cameras.


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 25, 2015, 11:48:26 pm

Ya don't need no damn measurements and simulations, just whack it in a camera and see if it works!

I did this, it didn't work.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 26, 2015, 12:54:24 am

Quote from: lpickup on August 25, 2015, 11:07:05 pm

I AM surprised that "Batteroo Batteriser", who disclaims that they are in no way associated with Batteroo, the company that makes Batteriser, would pay $$$, and probably some very serious $$$, to run that video as an ad. 

That is very surprising! Someone is paying big money for that, google do not put those there for free, they are payed and targeted ads. Perhaps even targeting my Batteriser videos directly (In Google Adwords you can target specific video or channels and associated keyworks)
I've seen the Batteriser Adsense ads for the website, but not the "fan" videos before.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: P_Doped on August 26, 2015, 01:48:39 am

Jay_Diddy_B says: The battery voltage drop less without the boost circuit than with.

The droop from the boost can be larger than the raw battery output and it's o.k.  The comparison is the voltage presented to the load.  So, the comparison is the minimum value from the boost vs. battery alone.  If the battery is at 1.2V and then drops to 1.1V (100mV droop) compared with the boosted voltage at 1.5V which drops to 1.3V (200mV droop) when the current load step hits, the boost droop is larger, but the boosted voltage is still o.k. (i.e. will not trigger an undervoltage event).

This is voltage positioning, used in a variety of places where a load step is anticipated and the finite output impedance of the voltage source needs to be dealt with.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 26, 2015, 02:22:31 am

I am convinced that we will see a product shipped. Not sure about November though. Why? Because the folks behind Batteriser are well accessible, not some anonymous scammers in the remote woods. Seems very foolish if they are blatantly scamming. However, if it won't work as stated and likely just psychologically trick the mind into thinking that it lasts much longer... Seems like career sabotage if it is complete crap.  If they haven't assembled a production chain already, how can they do it in 3 months on such little ($300k funding and maybe $1 mil VC)? That's why I feel like they have built a production line already and don't show working models because they know it doesn't work. Unless...  They give back the money and claim some conspiracy to save face. At least we don't have to wait long to find out.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on August 26, 2015, 02:46:56 am

I'm REAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLY curious what the short circuit current of the batteriser will be, and am also curious what its behavior will be when it hits the current limit.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on August 26, 2015, 06:51:19 am

Quote from: lpickup on August 25, 2015, 05:19:45 pm

Now THAT is strange...just went to watch Dave's Maker Faire interviews video and the entire 46 minute Batteriser video came up as the ad!

That is interesting.
I am blocking all advertisement with "adblock pro"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 26, 2015, 06:55:54 am

Quote from: 5ky on August 26, 2015, 02:46:56 am

I'm REAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLY curious what the short circuit current of the batteriser will be, and am also curious what its behavior will be when it hits the current limit.  :popcorn:

Thats probably where they got their 1.5 amp rating from  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on August 26, 2015, 07:07:11 am

Yesterday their INDIEGOGO page said 16 hours left.
Now it is another 30 days.
It seems they want to postpone their need to act and hope this "talk" will go away.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 26, 2015, 07:16:23 am

Quote from: HighVoltage on August 26, 2015, 07:07:11 am

Yesterday their INDIEGOGO page said 16 hours left.
Now it is another 30 days.
It seems they want to postpone their need to act and hope this "talk" will go away.

Quote

What You May Request Indiegogo Edit After Your Campaign is Live

As a one-off, Indiegogo allows any campaigner to extend their campaign's deadline to bring their total days live to 60 days (Please note: we are unable to shorten or pull-forward a campaign's deadline).

    Please contact support@indiegogo.com to submit your request for an extension and include the new date upon which you'd like your campaign to end.
    Support must receive request at least 3 business days prior to campaign's current deadline.

Trying to scam as much money as they can maybe?
I mean, if its a functional, saleable device, they won't need the campaign to make more sales...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 26, 2015, 07:21:44 am

Quote from: HighVoltage on August 26, 2015, 07:07:11 am

Yesterday their INDIEGOGO page said 16 hours left.
Now it is another 30 days.

They clearly didn't get the money they were after. If they think they are going to get double after another 30 days, good luck with that, campaigns don't usually work like that.

Quote

It seems they want to postpone their need to act and hope this "talk" will go away.

I think it's the opposite actually. The longer the campaign stays active the more likely people are still going to comment on it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 26, 2015, 07:24:13 am

Clearly their campaign failed. I was expected the to be well above 500k. So they are seeking a "relance".

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pickle9000 on August 26, 2015, 07:27:10 am

Quote from: HighVoltage on August 26, 2015, 07:07:11 am

Yesterday their INDIEGOGO page said 16 hours left.
Now it is another 30 days.
It seems they want to postpone their need to act and hope this "talk" will go away.

I'm thinking outside investor issues.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 26, 2015, 07:33:00 am

Quote from: Kalvin on August 25, 2015, 11:22:21 am

The boost-converter's efficiency is about 80% - 90%, which can be compensated by the fact that the boost converter can drain battery a bit more than the camera can.

What's the efficiency of 2 boost converters (1 inside, 2nd is batteroo) AFTER eachother? Let's not fall into the trap of just multiplying the % numbers.
And, more important, what's the consumption of those 2 boost converters when the device is OFF? It's not zero, because one of them isn't aware of being OFF.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 26, 2015, 07:43:07 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 26, 2015, 12:54:24 am

That is very surprising! Someone is paying big money for that, google do not put those there for free, they are payed and targeted ads. Perhaps even targeting my Batteriser videos directly (In Google Adwords you can target specific video or channels and associated keyworks)
I've seen the Batteriser Adsense ads for the website, but not the "fan" videos before.

Don't you get a cut of the advertising shown before your videos? So you are now profitting from the Batteriser?? You've become part of the scam!!  :scared:  ;D

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 26, 2015, 08:10:53 am

Quote from: HighVoltage on August 26, 2015, 07:07:11 am

Yesterday their INDIEGOGO page said 16 hours left.
Now it is another 30 days.
It seems they want to postpone their need to act and hope this "talk" will go away.

Apparently you can extent your campaign by sending IGG a request at least 3 days before the end of a campaign:
https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/205154117-What-You-Can-Can-t-Edit-After-Your-Campaign-Is-Live (https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/205154117-What-You-Can-Can-t-Edit-After-Your-Campaign-Is-Live)
Which seems just like a smart thing to do for them, since the money is still pouring in.

Bob's last (6th) update is now a little strange though stating: "There's only 24 hours left". Again something that doesn't add up well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 26, 2015, 10:06:39 am

Quote from: McBryce on August 26, 2015, 07:43:07 am

Don't you get a cut of the advertising shown before your videos? So you are now profitting from the Batteriser??

Yes, I'll buy a muffin tomorrow with the profits.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 26, 2015, 10:21:15 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 26, 2015, 07:21:44 am

Quote from: HighVoltage on August 26, 2015, 07:07:11 am

Yesterday their INDIEGOGO page said 16 hours left.
Now it is another 30 days.

They clearly didn't get the money they were after. If they think they are going to get double after another 30 days, good luck with that, campaigns don't usually work like that.

So why did they set an initial target of $30,000?  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 26, 2015, 10:27:35 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 26, 2015, 10:06:39 am

Quote from: McBryce on August 26, 2015, 07:43:07 am

Don't you get a cut of the advertising shown before your videos? So you are now profitting from the Batteriser??

Yes, I'll buy a muffin tomorrow with the profits.

buy a batteriser ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 26, 2015, 10:37:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 26, 2015, 10:06:39 am

Quote from: McBryce on August 26, 2015, 07:43:07 am

Don't you get a cut of the advertising shown before your videos? So you are now profitting from the Batteriser??

Yes, I'll buy a muffin tomorrow with the profits.

That may be more than they ever profit from it! :D

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 26, 2015, 10:54:27 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 26, 2015, 10:21:15 am

So why did they set an initial target of $30,000?  :-//

So they can advertise to their VC's and others that it was a massive success being "1000% over funded".
It's a common technique when you don't actually need the money and you are doing it for other reasons.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 26, 2015, 10:59:53 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 26, 2015, 10:21:15 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 26, 2015, 07:21:44 am

Quote from: HighVoltage on August 26, 2015, 07:07:11 am

Yesterday their INDIEGOGO page said 16 hours left.
Now it is another 30 days.

They clearly didn't get the money they were after. If they think they are going to get double after another 30 days, good luck with that, campaigns don't usually work like that.

So why did they set an initial target of $30,000?  :-//

The low target is probably so it makes it look like they are so popular they are over-funded right away, also convincing potential crowd-funders that it is a sure thing since they are way over target... they will fund the campaign. But they also had a "flexible funding" on the $30k which means they could have raised only $10k and still able to keep the money. It is just for show.

They extended it another 30 days. This story only gets weirder. Their funding curve over the 30 days probably looks just like a battery voltage depletion curve, only flipped in its Y-axis.... Starts off fast, plateaus and then a final quick jump to the finish line.

However, in this case there is a Batteriser attached, so maybe they think it can extend their campaign another 8x! :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CaptCrash on August 26, 2015, 11:06:27 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 26, 2015, 10:54:27 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 26, 2015, 10:21:15 am

So why did they set an initial target of $30,000?  :-//

So they can advertise to their VC's and others that it was a massive success being "1000% over funded".
It's a common technique when you don't actually need the money and you are doing it for other reasons.

Don't you mean 80,000% over funded? It is batteriser after all, don't let math get in the way

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on August 26, 2015, 11:36:20 am

I can see this ending with a "Due to misinformation maliciously spread by interested parties elsewhere online, our major external investors have decided to pull out of the project.  Unfortunately, this means we are unable to deliver the product."  Oh, and we spent all your crowdfunding money on stupid videos, fast cars, and fast women, so no refunds!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 26, 2015, 11:38:42 am

Quote from: Delta on August 26, 2015, 11:36:20 am

fast cars, and fast women

Well at least they didn't waste it then.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on August 26, 2015, 11:44:19 am

Quote from: McBryce on August 26, 2015, 11:38:42 am

Quote from: Delta on August 26, 2015, 11:36:20 am

fast cars, and fast women

Well at least they didn't waste it then.

McBryce.

© G. Best 😃

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on August 26, 2015, 11:45:32 am

Hi,

Is there a place where you can get a chart of dollars raised versus time?

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 26, 2015, 11:58:26 am

Quote from: McBryce on August 26, 2015, 11:38:42 am

Quote from: Delta on August 26, 2015, 11:36:20 am

fast cars, and fast women

Well at least they didn't waste it then.

No, no, no... the joke is "spent it on loose cars and fast women"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on August 26, 2015, 12:11:25 pm

I just checked and it is confirmed that they have extended for another 30 days, so that then means they can study this and other threads for a month longer, and it looks and sounds like they need to.

I would love to have a serious game of poker with this mob because the card up my sleeve would be the knowledge that they are probably bluffing or even worse a pack of c#£@ts.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 26, 2015, 12:25:56 pm

Quote from: edy on August 26, 2015, 10:59:53 am

The low target is probably so it makes it look like they are so popular they are over-funded right away

...but even a drooling idiot can see that $30,000 is way too low, that there's something wrong there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on August 26, 2015, 12:44:23 pm

Quote from: Delta on August 26, 2015, 11:36:20 am

Oh, and we spent all your crowdfunding money on stupid videos, fast cars, and fast women

...and clapping monkeys and 8 year old golf GPS units and we had to buy a new oscilloscope because the toy we had before was being laughed at in our videos

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 26, 2015, 12:49:42 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 26, 2015, 11:58:26 am

Quote from: McBryce on August 26, 2015, 11:38:42 am

Quote from: Delta on August 26, 2015, 11:36:20 am

fast cars, and fast women

Well at least they didn't waste it then.

No, no, no... the joke is "spent it on loose cars and fast women"

Actually I was referring to the famous Georgie Best quote (as Delta spotted): "I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered."

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 26, 2015, 01:25:22 pm

Quote from: edy on August 26, 2015, 10:59:53 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 26, 2015, 10:21:15 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 26, 2015, 07:21:44 am

Quote from: HighVoltage on August 26, 2015, 07:07:11 am

Yesterday their INDIEGOGO page said 16 hours left.
Now it is another 30 days.

They clearly didn't get the money they were after. If they think they are going to get double after another 30 days, good luck with that, campaigns don't usually work like that.

So why did they set an initial target of $30,000?  :-//

They extended it another 30 days. This story only gets weirder. Their funding curve over the 30 days probably looks just like a battery voltage depletion curve, only flipped in its Y-axis.... Starts off fast, plateaus and then a final quick jump to the finish line.

True, but unlike a battery charge, backer can retract, so the line may go down suddenly if people get rid of the scam

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SundayProgrammer on August 26, 2015, 01:53:01 pm

Do we already know who is the "EE" in the clapping monkey video? I have started to feel sorry for him - if he really is EE I think he has lost his face so bad nobody will take him seriously anymore about anything.

If he is just a paid actor..  I understand.

Axel.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 26, 2015, 02:01:55 pm

Quote from: SundayProgrammer on August 26, 2015, 01:53:01 pm

Do we already know who is the "EE" in the clapping monkey video?

Yes, the detective story is in the middle of this thread somewhere.

We guessed it was this guy: https://instagram.com/exellentc/ (https://instagram.com/exellentc/)  https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopheruken (https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopheruken)

In their last video they actually called him "Chris" so I guess that makes it definitive.

Quote from: SundayProgrammer on August 26, 2015, 01:53:01 pm

If he is just a paid actor..  I understand.

Unfortunately not.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 26, 2015, 05:49:32 pm

Extending the crowd funding campaign is what one does after the VC firm closes your bank account and says, "Hell no! We will NOT be paying people to take product that 'works' by violating the first and second laws of thermodynamics.  Figure this mess out by yourselves."

September 26th is well outside the start window for the holiday season. They are going to have to buy tooling. They need to make progressive dies to whack out the clips, and I don't see how that can be done, qualify/tweak the tools and still get stuff on a cargo container for November delivery. There's also also the production and test fixtures that will need to be made. The injection molds appear to have been taken care of already, or maybe not. I couldn't see a witness line around the logo on the plastic case, but maybe they had a really good insert made for an existing tool(s).

If Batteroo is using this money to build tooling - which I'm guessing they are and is why they had to extend the campaign - don't get your hopes up on seeing your Batteriser any time soon.  Even in China, $300k can disappear in heartbeat.  I just don't see enough capital here to build 100k+ of anything.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 26, 2015, 06:27:47 pm

A VC firm does not care about laws of nature. They only care for laws of money. If someone starts to sell holy water that extends life by 50 years, and people want to buy it, VC will be there to support it.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on August 26, 2015, 07:49:35 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 24, 2015, 02:33:34 pm

At 9:33, Frankie demonstrates on YouTube for the whole world to see that the essence of their claims is that the Batteriser is an over-unity device.

Frankie is either deliberately or ignorantly confusing the voltage at the device's (Batteriser's output/device input) terminals with the voltage at the battery's terminals. The voltage at the battery's terminals DOES NOT GO UP because the Batteriser is attached. That voltage must go down due to the increased current draw in order to boost the voltage at the device terminals.

This so bad it's hard to find adjectives. Batteroo just invalidated at least some of their patent claims. By themselves. On YouTube. 

 :palm: :palm: :palm:

What are you talking about?

It's bloody obvious that they are not only saving the planet, but they also devised a system to extract more energy out of a battery than battery manufacturers claim their batteries possess.  :scared:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 26, 2015, 07:59:07 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/KmeTdhx.png)

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on August 26, 2015, 08:15:59 pm

Or 30 days for everyone to pull their contribution, nah that wont happen because people that put money on it probably will never visit the campaign again.

I wonder if some other product that got greedy lost contributions/pledges trying to squeezed a bit more out of IGG/KS.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on August 26, 2015, 08:16:57 pm

Just 30 more days for Dave to educate people.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 26, 2015, 08:31:52 pm

I concur... This is the email I received since I am following the campaign on IndieGogo:

Quote

30 more days to buy Batteriser!

We are thrilled by the tremendous support we've recieved during The Batteriser pre-sale this past month. We raised over $290,000, and reached nearly 1000% of our campaign goal. We know many of you have only recently learned about the Batteriser technology, so we've extended the pre-sale for another 30 days.

We want as many people as possible to benefit from the savings and environmental benefit that come with Batteriser. Buying during our pre-sale gives you the added benefit of our earlybird discounts, and you'll be among the first to get your Batterisers.

Copyright © 2015 Batteriser, All rights reserved.
You are receiving this email because you wished to join our batteriser team. Thank You!

Our mailing address is:
Batteriser
310 De Guigne Dr.
Sunnyvale, CA 94085

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 26, 2015, 08:34:33 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 26, 2015, 05:49:32 pm

September 26th is well outside the start window for the holiday season. They are going to have to buy tooling. They need to make progressive dies to whack out the clips, and I don't see how that can be done, qualify/tweak the tools and still get stuff on a cargo container for November delivery. There's also also the production and test fixtures that will need to be made. The injection molds appear to have been taken care of already, or maybe not. I couldn't see a witness line around the logo on the plastic case, but maybe they had a really good insert made for an existing tool(s).

If Batteroo is using this money to build tooling - which I'm guessing they are and is why they had to extend the campaign - don't get your hopes up on seeing your Batteriser any time soon.  Even in China, $300k can disappear in heartbeat.  I just don't see enough capital here to build 100k+ of anything.

You're assuming that they ever planned to mass produce their  "product". Maybe that was never part of the plan. They may not even have sourced a production facility. Maybe this is something that should be looked at?

A VC that knows what the first or second law of Thermodynamics is?? And makes decisions based on them?? I'd like to meet one, if they exist.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 26, 2015, 08:39:06 pm

They say that they had to go for a custom dc-dc chip. Correct? So they must went for large volume for the cost to be viable. They must have a large stock of the most critical part. If true, they can start mass production as we speak.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 26, 2015, 08:40:09 pm

I looked up their mailing address on Google Maps and there we have "SK Telecom" again. Aren't they the Venture Capitalist firm that is bank-rolling these guys? SK = "South Korea" ???? See this:

http://www.sktelecom.com/index_real.html (http://www.sktelecom.com/index_real.html)

And then here the VC page:

http://sktainnopartners.com/80-2/ (http://sktainnopartners.com/80-2/)

How deep is this connection and what is happening here?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 26, 2015, 08:46:16 pm

So who's making the IC? There's not that many companies that can fulfil such a contract and production firms leak like a plumbers tap. Someone must know who's doing this?

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on August 26, 2015, 09:02:09 pm

Quote from: edy on August 26, 2015, 10:59:53 am

The low target is probably so it makes it look like they are so popular they are over-funded right away, also convincing potential crowd-funders that it is a sure thing since they are way over target... they will fund the campaign. But they also had a "flexible funding" on the $30k which means they could have raised only $10k and still able to keep the money. It is just for show.

They extended it another 30 days. This story only gets weirder. Their funding curve over the 30 days probably looks just like a battery voltage depletion curve, only flipped in its Y-axis.... Starts off fast, plateaus and then a final quick jump to the finish line.

However, in this case there is a Batteriser attached, so maybe they think it can extend their campaign another 8x! :-)

That is some solid math!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on August 26, 2015, 09:21:44 pm

Quote from: miguelvp on August 26, 2015, 08:15:59 pm

Or 30 days for everyone to pull their contribution, nah that wont happen because people that put money on it probably will never visit the campaign again.

It wont happen because once you invest in something your brain flips a switch from critical thinking to justification. Cognitive dissonance solving part kicks in and starts whispering into your ear "Im not a sucker, I wouldnt give my money to a scammer, therefore it is not a scam, those other people are just jelly". This is how it works when you invest money/time in something, be it a product, idea (for example scientific theory) or religion. You stop analysing, and start rationalizing your decision.


As for the butterplug itself, as far as I see it all they have are printed paper cutout models of what the final product might look like.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on August 26, 2015, 09:32:59 pm

I do not know why you guys are so down on this - see pic below before the video

The pic comes from about 9:10 in the video.

This VI vs time graph clearly shows that the battery has much more energy in it than the V vs T graph that Dave likes to draw.   Everyone is just forgetting about current.  You need to add the area under the current graph to the area under the voltage graph.  This is what this device does - it adds the areas to give you more power.
 QED

Now I am going to buy mine.

Here is the whole truth telling video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 26, 2015, 09:37:24 pm

Quote from: edy on August 26, 2015, 08:40:09 pm

I looked up their mailing address on Google Maps and there we have "SK Telecom" again. Aren't they the Venture Capitalist firm that is bank-rolling these guys? SK = "South Korea" ???? See this:

Well ... 310 De Guigne Dr. (Batteroo) isn't the same as 370 De Guigne Dr (SK Telecom).

It's not surprising that SK Telecom have offices in the USA, or that Batteroo is near their venture capitalist.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 26, 2015, 09:51:47 pm

Quote from: ez24 on August 26, 2015, 09:32:59 pm

This VI vs time graph clearly shows that the battery has much more energy in it than the V vs T graph that Dave likes to draw.   Everyone is just forgetting about current.  You need to add the area under the current graph to the area under the voltage graph.  This is what this device does - it adds the areas to give you more power.
 QED

I hope this is sarcasm. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 26, 2015, 09:53:07 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 26, 2015, 09:37:24 pm

Quote from: edy on August 26, 2015, 08:40:09 pm

I looked up their mailing address on Google Maps and there we have "SK Telecom" again. Aren't they the Venture Capitalist firm that is bank-rolling these guys? SK = "South Korea" ???? See this:

Well ... 310 De Guigne Dr. (Batteroo) isn't the same as 370 De Guigne Dr (SK Telecom).

It's not surprising that SK Telecom have offices in the USA, or that Batteroo is near their venture capitalist.

Keep in mind that a portion of the "up to $1M USD" that SK provides is in the form of "assistance," so things like office space come out of that total.  It's a great way to inflate the equity portion of the investment while minimizing capital outlay. 

SK requires their "fund-ees" to operate out of SK's own offices.  The fact that Batteroo is in the same office complex is not a coincidence. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 26, 2015, 10:27:52 pm

Quote from: edy on August 26, 2015, 10:59:53 am

But they also had a "flexible funding" on the $30k which means they could have raised only $10k and still able to keep the money. It is just for show.

45 days ago, the crowdfunding was just for show.  Now, it is life or death for Batteroo.  In the consumer electronics industry, you have to have your sh*t squared away by late summer in order to have time to get distribution filled.  No one in their right mind would drag out getting their money into late September unless they had no other options. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on August 26, 2015, 10:31:08 pm

Quote

I hope this is sarcasm.

Yes after I brushed up on my VI vs T graphs  :-DD

I couldn't believe they would post this.

Dave needs to put up a VBS v t graph (voltage bull shit vs time)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 26, 2015, 10:47:41 pm

Some interesting links come up when you Google "SK Telecom" and "Batteriser". Here is an obvious one. I wonder if Mr. Park has decided to investigate his investment further.

Min. H. Park: President SK Telecom Americas and also Investor and Board Member Batteroo/Batteriser (no surprise as they are providing VC funding and need to watch what is going on with their investments)

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/min-h-park/0/85a/b77?trk=seokp-title_posts_secondary_cluster_res_author_name (https://www.linkedin.com/pub/min-h-park/0/85a/b77?trk=seokp-title_posts_secondary_cluster_res_author_name)


It's all part of SK Telecom Ventures. He is board member of a whole pile of other investments that are being funded by this VC firm. I haven't looked at the other projects but I presume they are on more solid footing from an engineering stand-point.

So my question is, how do these guys link up with each other? Does Mr. Roohparvar go to some VC convention and pitch the idea to various firms (one of which is SK Telecom) and try to secure backing to develop things? Is that how it works? Or do they go to conventions and set up tables to showcase their invention and hope for a VC firm to pass by their booth and start talking? Or is there some other way of doing this?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 26, 2015, 10:50:46 pm

Latest comments on their video...

Batteroo: "We are allowing independent testers and reviewers to do all those tests you are mentioning with our Media Test Kits."

Some guy: "Can we ask which independent testers you are sending your media kits to? So we can see the results. Also, when do you expect to send those media kits out?"

Batteroo: "Batteriser team were offered an exclusive by a couple big tech magazines similar to PC world (who did the first exclusive). It is not official yet, but I heard the names Wired magazine, Tech Crunch, and official electronic certification for retail stores. As of now, my information is very limited on which one is doing the exclusive, but I will announce it on this YouTube channel as soon as it is decided. It will most likely be published between 1-2 weeks from now. After the exclusive, we will send out additional Media Test Kits to anyone who wants one."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 26, 2015, 10:54:58 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 26, 2015, 10:50:46 pm

Latest comments on their video...

Batteroo: "We are allowing independent testers and reviewers to do all those tests you are mentioning with our Media Test Kits."

Some guy: "Can we ask which independent testers you are sending your media kits to? So we can see the results. Also, when do you expect to send those media kits out?"

Batteroo: "Batteriser team were offered an exclusive by a couple big tech magazines similar to PC world (who did the first exclusive). It is not official yet, but I heard the names Wired magazine, Tech Crunch, and official electronic certification for retail stores. As of now, my information is very limited on which one is doing the exclusive, but I will announce it on this YouTube channel as soon as it is decided. It will most likely be published between 1-2 weeks from now. After the exclusive, we will send out additional Media Test Kits to anyone who wants one."

Wow! Sounds promising... If they actually follow through with this, it would really help settle the debate once and for all. Send a Media Kit to Dave Jones please.

By the way, I read that PC World article again. It really sounds quite genuine and there are a lot of people involved that they quote, all who seem reputable. If this is a scam, it is one involving a lot of players. But what I don't understand is why they just don't show actual performance. They already had someone "steal" their prototypes from their office (according to their story) and they are planning to launch in Fall 2015 (according to PC World) so if they are that close to production (and I still can't see how they can do that in 2-3 months) why not just show actual results by real independent labs? It will be out in the wild very shortly anyways, who is going to copy them and they are protected by patents.

Why all these games? :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on August 27, 2015, 03:26:30 am

Quote from: edy on August 26, 2015, 10:54:58 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 26, 2015, 10:50:46 pm

Latest comments on their video...

Batteroo: "We are allowing independent testers and reviewers to do all those tests you are mentioning with our Media Test Kits."

Some guy: "Can we ask which independent testers you are sending your media kits to? So we can see the results. Also, when do you expect to send those media kits out?"

Batteroo: "Batteriser team were offered an exclusive by a couple big tech magazines similar to PC world (who did the first exclusive). It is not official yet, but I heard the names Wired magazine, Tech Crunch, and official electronic certification for retail stores. As of now, my information is very limited on which one is doing the exclusive, but I will announce it on this YouTube channel as soon as it is decided. It will most likely be published between 1-2 weeks from now. After the exclusive, we will send out additional Media Test Kits to anyone who wants one."

Wow! Sounds promising... If they actually follow through with this, it would really help settle the debate once and for all. Send a Media Kit to Dave Jones please.

no, they will send it after securing PR deal with "Wired magazine, Tech Crunch" or another TOTALLY NON TECHNICAL startup oriented venue

Quote from: edy on August 26, 2015, 10:54:58 pm

Why all these games? :-//

because its a SCAM

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 27, 2015, 04:28:02 am

Just to illustrate the level of desperation at Batteroo, the Indiegogo campaign has been repurposed as the wholesale channel. 

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=168004;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on August 27, 2015, 04:42:55 am

Quote from: Bud on August 25, 2015, 01:59:44 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on August 25, 2015, 08:48:25 am

Quote from: Bud on August 25, 2015, 03:04:13 am

(http://i.imgur.com/ZkQXjK5.gif)

Clapping cymbals monkey - A new design for an EEVblog shirt perhaps?

I wanted to say they may need a new company logo, but your tshirt idea is nice

 :-DD

And the slogan may say something like "We tap into your underused inner" , or perhaps "Feel 80% better!"

I can't believe I was so rude to offend those nice people...I was off by 720% , sorry folks. Here is the correct slogan:

Feel 800% better with B@tteraser

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on August 27, 2015, 05:06:44 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 27, 2015, 04:28:02 am

... the Indiegogo campaign has been repurposed as the wholesale channel. 

That is very smart, isn't it. Just get a few suckers to sign up and you are done rather than dealing with hundreds of them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 27, 2015, 05:17:50 am

So after all this time and effort, they still haven't shown a single device that gives the x8 life they claim in the logo. Why?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on August 27, 2015, 05:40:45 am

Because ...-> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ilr--_2hzcE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ilr--_2hzcE)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on August 27, 2015, 05:47:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 27, 2015, 05:17:50 am

So after all this time and effort, they still haven't shown a single device that gives the x8 life they claim in the logo. Why?

I concur.  Hell, I'd be happy just to see those "dead" AA batteries make that monkey clap with the batterisers.  (but the lack of information on their current output tells me that they'd probably struggle to climb "Brushed DC Motor Mountain")

Also, what a terrible product name.  When I hear "batteriser" out-loud, I think of a wife-beating redneck's nickname. They couldn't come up with something like "Battery Glove"?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on August 27, 2015, 05:51:50 am

Quote from: Bud on August 27, 2015, 05:40:45 am

Because ...-> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ilr--_2hzcE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ilr--_2hzcE)

Now we are talking about holy shit?  Aren't cows holy in India - so this bullshit much be holy do do  so this means this subject is holy do do.  Besides the VI vs T chart this is another reason to buy one.  I am sure they will sell a million to members of this forum.  I wonder how many have "secretly" ordered.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 27, 2015, 06:18:50 am

Quote from: Bud on August 27, 2015, 05:06:44 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 27, 2015, 04:28:02 am

... the Indiegogo campaign has been repurposed as the wholesale channel. 

That is very smart, isn't it. Just get a few suckers to sign up and you are done rather than dealing with hundreds of them.

From what I've seen over the years, it looks to me like they just rented a bigger backhoe to dig their hole.  Their CM might be telling them to go pound sand right now. $100k to $200k is small small account to tie up a production line with. And if the CM has any smarts, they will make Batteroo own all the inventory for the MOQs.  They might be on the hook for a few hundred thousand bucks just in excess inventory on the boost converter alone. Then there's the inductor which is likely custom and long lead time. A CM might carry that inventory for a Dell or HP, but not a company with less than $1M to its name.

This is just such a train wreck it's hard to turn away.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on August 27, 2015, 07:42:55 am

I quoted this post, but don't take it personally. I've seen similar remarks all across this thread.

Quote from: tree on August 26, 2015, 08:16:57 pm

Just 30 more days for Dave to educate people.

Oh come on guys, Dave is not the only one who can educate people. Anyone can do that, everybody here has a voice on Internet. Leave comments on published articles on news sites, write an article on your own blog, link debunking articles on your facebook or linkedin, ..., you can think of other things I'm sure. Search engines will pick up the blogs and the links, that is what we are looking for: Make the search engines believe there are controversial product claims.

Whatever you do, don't sit back while telling someone else [Dave] to get going.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on August 27, 2015, 08:39:55 am

Quote from: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 01:49:27 pm

My main problem with Bob and his brother (or even the Chris one) is that they seems to really believe what they are saying.

There is no way you could do a 40min video like that, showing your face without believing for even 1ns on what you are saying.

The main problem is that this person have a really basic knowledge of what EE is, discovered some stuff recently, but never work on real hardware design, and believe they found THE solution, as their test are completely flawed that they give them false confidence in what they claim..

maybe 10 or 15 years ago I would may have thought the same thing about the spike that "make the device stop" but since, I've learn thing, look how device are designed, done some design myself (not a lot that's true, but work on some design by others, event crapish Chinese design) or better watch Dave's YT channel, and learn things, taught myself, learn from other experience, and even if some part of what they say is true, seeing the "unintentional" scam around is clear.

In fact, they are not thinking outside the box, they are completely inside the box, so deep inside that they can't see how false they are...

You really underrate a lot what a very sophisticated i psychopath is able to do to get whatever they want.

- A psychopath is cold blood, very logic and planning even the slightest detail. They are perversely empathic in a way they don't care a shit about others, but they use their skills to gain social popularity and convince others by lots of manipulative ways.
* Most best marketing people could be considered psychopaths, as tons of CEOs too.
- A sociopath if impulsive and is unable to be so logical, not smart enough and do acts with previous thinking of them.

Just learn some  core concepts of psychiatry, psychology and  neuroscience. Despite there's some pseudoscience crap in it and bad practices, some of it is scientifically proven.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 27, 2015, 09:10:32 am

99,272 sold... although that may have increased by now... ;)

Delivery November 2015, so assume they have to be finished by mid November...

That's 70 days to produce them, assuming the production facility works 6 days a week, thats 60 days.... 16 hours a day?

1655 per day... 103 per hour... 35 seconds per batteriser...

Of course, China probably work 8 days a week, 40 hours a day :P

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on August 27, 2015, 09:12:31 am

Quote from: Circuiteromalaguito on August 27, 2015, 08:39:55 am

Quote from: Godzil on August 24, 2015, 01:49:27 pm

My main problem with Bob and his brother (or even the Chris one) is that they seems to really believe what they are saying.

There is no way you could do a 40min video like that, showing your face without believing for even 1ns on what you are saying.

The main problem is that this person have a really basic knowledge of what EE is, discovered some stuff recently, but never work on real hardware design, and believe they found THE solution, as their test are completely flawed that they give them false confidence in what they claim..

maybe 10 or 15 years ago I would may have thought the same thing about the spike that "make the device stop" but since, I've learn thing, look how device are designed, done some design myself (not a lot that's true, but work on some design by others, event crapish Chinese design) or better watch Dave's YT channel, and learn things, taught myself, learn from other experience, and even if some part of what they say is true, seeing the "unintentional" scam around is clear.

In fact, they are not thinking outside the box, they are completely inside the box, so deep inside that they can't see how false they are...

You really underrate a lot what a very sophisticated i psychopath is able to do to get whatever they want.

- A psychopath is cold blood, very logic and planning even the slightest detail. They are perversely empathic in a way they don't care a shit about others, but they use their skills to gain social popularity and convince others by lots of manipulative ways.
* Most best marketing people could be considered psychopaths, as tons of CEOs too.
- A sociopath if impulsive and is unable to be so logical, not smart enough and do acts with previous thinking of them.

Just learn some  core concepts of psychiatry, psychology and  neuroscience. Despite there's some pseudoscience crap in it and bad practices, some of it is scientifically proven.

Back to the electronics subject maybe? That's where our expertise is.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on August 27, 2015, 09:16:11 am

Quote from: Circuiteromalaguito on August 27, 2015, 08:39:55 am

- A psychopath is cold blood, very logic and planning even the slightest detail.

+1
I just had a deep discussion in the last weeks about this with an engineering friend who ran in to some psychopath with his business.
We came across this very interesting PDF:
Psychopathic Leader - Do they exist.pdf

Enjoy the reading....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 27, 2015, 09:29:38 am

Quote from: jancumps on August 27, 2015, 09:12:31 am

Back to the electronics subject maybe? That's where our expertise is.

Yes, try and keep this thread technical, as that is what is being discussed here.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 27, 2015, 10:12:42 am

What are FCC emission regulations? Roohparvar says the butteriser isn't subject to those regulations, but my very brief reading of the standard, I can't see why it wouldn't be applicable?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on August 27, 2015, 10:57:16 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 27, 2015, 10:12:42 am

What are FCC emission regulations? Roohparvar says the butteriser isn't subject to those regulations, but my very brief reading of the standard, I can't see why it wouldn't be applicable?

That may also be a real issue for the end user, having a noisy switch regulator plugged inside your device.
And in some cases you insert the battery inside the shielding. Nothing is going to stop the switch-mode noise.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 27, 2015, 11:25:26 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 27, 2015, 09:10:32 am

Delivery November 2015, so assume they have to be finished by mid November...

How long does FCC approval take?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 27, 2015, 11:27:41 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 27, 2015, 11:25:26 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 27, 2015, 09:10:32 am

Delivery November 2015, so assume they have to be finished by mid November...

How long does FCC approval take?

They aren't getting FCC approval. :p

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 27, 2015, 11:56:21 am

Quote from: jancumps on August 27, 2015, 10:57:16 am

That may also be a real issue for the end user, having a noisy switch regulator plugged inside your device.
And in some cases you insert the battery inside the shielding. Nothing is going to stop the switch-mode noise.

Well...it's hidden inside a metal bracket on one side and has a close-fitting battery on the other. It might be self-shielding.

I'm sure Dave can test that for them when they send him his press evaluation kit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 27, 2015, 12:18:55 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 27, 2015, 10:12:42 am

What are FCC emission regulations? Roohparvar says the butteriser isn't subject to those regulations

Where does he say that?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on August 27, 2015, 12:36:42 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 27, 2015, 09:10:32 am

99,272 sold... although that may have increased by now... ;)

Delivery November 2015, so assume they have to be finished by mid November...

That's 70 days to produce them, assuming the production facility works 6 days a week, thats 60 days.... 16 hours a day?

1655 per day... 103 per hour... 35 seconds per batteriser...

Of course, China probably work 8 days a week, 40 hours a day :P

You do know that some factories have more than one worker, right?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 27, 2015, 12:38:30 pm

Quote from: janekm on August 27, 2015, 12:36:42 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 27, 2015, 09:10:32 am

99,272 sold... although that may have increased by now... ;)

Delivery November 2015, so assume they have to be finished by mid November...

That's 70 days to produce them, assuming the production facility works 6 days a week, thats 60 days.... 16 hours a day?

1655 per day... 103 per hour... 35 seconds per batteriser...

Of course, China probably work 8 days a week, 40 hours a day :P

You do know that some factories have more than one worker, right?

Nah, I've never seen that before ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on August 27, 2015, 12:44:52 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 27, 2015, 12:18:55 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 27, 2015, 10:12:42 am

What are FCC emission regulations? Roohparvar says the butteriser isn't subject to those regulations

Where does he say that?

Could be plausible actually:

Quote

(h) Digital devices in which both the highest frequency generated and the highest frequency used are less than 1.705 MHz and which do not operate from the AC power lines or contain provisions for operation while connected to the AC power lines. Digital devices that include, or make provision for the use of, battery eliminators, AC adapters or battery chargers which permit operation while charging or that connect to the AC power lines indirectly, obtaining their power through another device which is connected to the AC power lines, do not fall under this exemption.

http://www.radiomet.com/documents/fcc_guide.pdf (http://www.radiomet.com/documents/fcc_guide.pdf)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 27, 2015, 12:54:00 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 27, 2015, 12:18:55 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 27, 2015, 10:12:42 am

What are FCC emission regulations? Roohparvar says the butteriser isn't subject to those regulations

Where does he say that?

On the indiegogo campaign. Someone asked about it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on August 27, 2015, 12:57:45 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 27, 2015, 12:54:00 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 27, 2015, 12:18:55 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 27, 2015, 10:12:42 am

What are FCC emission regulations? Roohparvar says the butteriser isn't subject to those regulations

Where does he say that?

On the indiegogo campaign. Someone asked about it.

Yep, it's right at the top of the comments as we speak:

Quote

Bob Roohparvar
11 hours ago
@Eric McFall
Thanks Eric,
our device is not subject to FCC emission regulation.


Eric McFall
13 hours ago
Mr. Roohparvar: Obviously quite a few of these Batterisers will be built and delivered. I believe it’s a fair statement that enough will be sold in the US to be subject to FCC emission regulations. This will not be trivial since at least some form of high frequency magnetics will be involved in the boost converter. What compliance pre-testing has been done to assure the Batteriser will pass FCC requirements for a consumer device before mass production can begin?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bitwelder on August 27, 2015, 01:11:57 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 26, 2015, 02:01:55 pm

Yes, the detective story is in the middle of this thread somewhere.

We guessed it was this guy: https://instagram.com/exellentc/ (https://instagram.com/exellentc/)  https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopheruken (https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopheruken)

In their last video they actually called him "Chris" so I guess that makes it definitive.

A *computer* engineer (according to LinkedIn)?  :palm:
Interestingly, Dr. Bob appeared in the list of 'People also viewed' LinkedIn sidebar.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 27, 2015, 01:45:47 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 27, 2015, 12:18:55 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 27, 2015, 10:12:42 am

What are FCC emission regulations? Roohparvar says the butteriser isn't subject to those regulations

Where does he say that?

(http://i.imgur.com/x57AhrL.png)

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 27, 2015, 01:57:28 pm

I don't know, but Mr Uken project does not seems related with the butter riser:

Quote

Senior Project
Biofeedback Mobility Group designed the Brainfingers Wheelchair Interface (BWI) for our client Dr. Bowen of California State University at East Bay that hopes to be one possible solution for increasing mobility. It is a Brain Computer Interface (BCI) controlled electric wheelchair. In this setup the Brainfingers BCI monitors brainwave signals and uses them to control a computer that is interfaced with the motor controllers on a Quickie P100 electric wheelchair.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 27, 2015, 02:02:09 pm

Quote from: janekm on August 27, 2015, 12:44:52 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 27, 2015, 12:18:55 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 27, 2015, 10:12:42 am

What are FCC emission regulations? Roohparvar says the butteriser isn't subject to those regulations

Where does he say that?

Could be plausible actually:

Quote

(h) Digital devices in which both the highest frequency generated and the highest frequency used are less than 1.705 MHz and which do not operate from the AC power lines or contain provisions for operation while connected to the AC power lines. Digital devices that include, or make provision for the use of, battery eliminators, AC adapters or battery chargers which permit operation while charging or that connect to the AC power lines indirectly, obtaining their power through another device which is connected to the AC power lines, do not fall under this exemption.

http://www.radiomet.com/documents/fcc_guide.pdf (http://www.radiomet.com/documents/fcc_guide.pdf)

But it says also:

Quote

The operator of the exempted device shall be required to stop operating the device upon a finding by the Commission or its representative that the device is causing harmful interference. Operation shall not resume until the condition causing the harmful interference has been corrected.

A boost converter used with a device which needs some amps can cause a lot of harmful interference, especially if it is high efficient, because of the fast rise/slow times.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 27, 2015, 02:26:59 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 27, 2015, 05:17:50 am

So after all this time and effort, they still haven't shown a single device that gives the x8 life they claim in the logo. Why?

After I said the device still does not exist, you claimed some days ago you know
some "serious" journalists that "confirmed" that the device exists AND "works"
Or did I misunderstand that?

The needed miniaturisation of the dc converter (let's assume here it's possible) requires mass production.
Before that moment, there is no chip.
Before that moment, there is no device.

They can proove or demonstrate their claims with a breadboard or closed box prototype, but they don't.
So far, so good. Their right to no demonstrate it.

But they DID show the device?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 27, 2015, 02:36:46 pm

From the FCC:

Quote

Digital devices that do not generate or use frequencies above
1.705 MHz and that do not operate while connected to the AC power
lines, such as certain electronic calculators. Digital devices that
include, or make provision for the use of, battery eliminators, AC
adapters or battery chargers that permit operation while charging or
that connect to the AC power lines indirectly, obtaining their power
through another device that is connected to the AC power lines, do
not fall under this exemption.
Section 15.103(h)
Digital devices that are exempt from the technical standards in Part 15 are still not
permitted to cause harmful interference to any authorized radio communications.
Accordingly, it is strongly recommended that the manufacturer of an exempt digital
device endeavor to have the device meet the technical standards anyhow.

https://transition.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Documents/bulletins/oet62/oet62rev.pdf

So, in addition to all the other risk, Batteroo has decided to add the risk of having sales be prohibited by the FCC if their device is shown to be an interferer after it hits the marketplace. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 27, 2015, 02:44:47 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 27, 2015, 02:36:46 pm

So, in addition to all the other risk, Batteroo has decided to add the risk of having sales be prohibited by the FCC if their device is shown to be an interferer after it hits the marketplace.

There is an interferiser in the "pipeline", patents are on the way, it will cost 2.5 dollar and reduces the interferences by 800%.
Available in 4 different colors.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 27, 2015, 02:58:00 pm

@Galenbo: It is about the size of a D battery?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 27, 2015, 03:17:05 pm

Most household bins (trashcans) are metal and that's where most batterisers will end up (if they ever get produced). That should be enough shielding for the device.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 27, 2015, 04:25:16 pm

I am reading through the  "scientific" paper by Zinniker:

http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)

... and starting to realize how poor the methodology is. For example, the main premise of their measurement of "battery capacity" remaining is as follows (see pages 9 and 10):

Quote

The test setup is shown in Fig. 8. The Olympus C3040 Camera (courtesy of
Olympus Europe) is equiped with 4 AA-Batteries under test. Every 20
seconds, a foto with full flash power in VGA-Resolution (in order to have
enough capacity on the SM storage card) and display on is made (the
RM-1 IR-remote control is connected to a pulse generator).

As soon as the battery voltage drops under 4V, the camera shuts off and
the number of fotos taken can be determined. After a pause of 12 to 24
hours, the batteries are discharged with 120mA constant current to 0.9V
in order to find their remaining capacity. From this rest capacity, an
equivalent number of Fotos is estimated (measurements during the test
showed, that for one foto an average current of 690mA can be
estimated ). Results are shown in Fig. 9.
 

 


So basically they are measuring until the camera stops functioning well.... Likely an issue with the remaining voltage dropping due to need to supply a certain high current demanded by charging the flash. But then, they measure the remaining capacity of the battery by draining it through a VERY SMALL  (in comparison) current draw until they get to 0.9 V per cell to estimate the amount of capacity that was wasted in the battery. How is that arbitrarily decided? Really?

Not to mention the Olympus C3040 is a 14 year old digital camera:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusc3040z (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusc3040z)

And the Zinniker paper itself is 12 years old.... Dated circa 2003. Choosing one device with crappy scientific method and extrapolating this to using Batteriser as some universal product unleashed on the public for a huge variety of devices in 2015.... that's just incompetence at the highest level.  :palm:

I'm not an electrical engineer, but isn't that a GROSS FLAW in the methodology of seeing what is actually remaining in a battery? And even so, wouldn't just adding a boost converter also be dependent on current draw required, even though the voltage increases, how are they simultaneously providing the necessary current supply?

I mean, I could show a battery drawing 10mA current and watching it last even longer before the voltage drops. Why not 50mA? Why not 100mA? Why not 200mA? Why not 500mA? Each one will have a different time until voltage drops to 0.9V per cell. And why 0.9 V per cell? So I believe the "remaining capacity" measurement is completely flawed. And that still doesn't answer the question of how you can simultaneously boost voltage and current at the same time. There is a trade-off between the two, that's why you get a voltage drop in the first place when you have higher current draw.   :wtf:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on August 27, 2015, 04:44:11 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 27, 2015, 11:56:21 am

Quote from: jancumps on August 27, 2015, 10:57:16 am

That may also be a real issue for the end user, having a noisy switch regulator plugged inside your device.
And in some cases you insert the battery inside the shielding. Nothing is going to stop the switch-mode noise.

Well...it's hidden inside a metal bracket on one side and has a close-fitting battery on the other. It might be self-shielding.

I'm sure Dave can test that for them when they send him his press evaluation kit.

It's not hidden inside the bracket. Their exploded view shows that pcb and components are sitting on top of the battery, not on the side between bracket and mantle.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on August 27, 2015, 07:40:38 pm

Quote from: edy on August 27, 2015, 04:25:16 pm

I am reading through the  "scientific" paper by Zinniker:

http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)

... and starting to realize how poor the methodology is. For example, the main premise of their measurement of "battery capacity" remaining is as follows (see pages 9 and 10):

<snip>

Well, it's even worse...the camera rig/experiment was not even Zinniker's.  He was just citing an earlier paper (from 2001) that did the camera experiment.  As I've mentioned earlier, not only is it just plain old, but this is an example of a camera from the very beginning of the consumer digital camera era.  I doubt they were doing much in the way of power management at that time so it's no surprise that it turns off early.  But even then, the data (which Batteroo happily points us to) shows that the majority of the batteries discarded in this 2001 era digital camera only had another 40-50% of capacity remaining...except for maybe the one battery on the far left of their plot, which likely is an el cheapo battery with an exceptionally high internal resistance.  But hey, that's probably good enough for marketing to call a "significant number".

Having said all that, Zinniker and the camera guy's approach to measuring battery capacity is LIGHT YEARS ahead of what Batteroo is doing in 2015, which consists mainly of measuring the open circuit voltage of the battery and whacking a Batteriser-equipped battery into a device with a battery meter that then reads 100% and calling it a win (well of course it's going to read 100% as the Batteriser is basically fooling the battery meter).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on August 27, 2015, 09:39:04 pm

Quote from: edy on August 27, 2015, 04:25:16 pm

...
Not to mention the Olympus C3040 is a 14 year old digital camera:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusc3040z (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusc3040z)
...

This adds absolutely nothing to the present conversation... but... I had an Olympus C3040 back in the day.  It was a really good camera.  I just got around to getting rid of it recently.  That's it.  Sorry.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 27, 2015, 10:39:13 pm

Quote from: Smokey on August 27, 2015, 09:39:04 pm

Quote from: edy on August 27, 2015, 04:25:16 pm

...
Not to mention the Olympus C3040 is a 14 year old digital camera:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusc3040z (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusc3040z)
...

This adds absolutely nothing to the present conversation...

Maybe not for you personally, but for me, it does.
They try to defend their claim based on obsolete devices this time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 27, 2015, 10:59:25 pm

Quote from: firewalker on August 27, 2015, 01:45:47 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 27, 2015, 12:18:55 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 27, 2015, 10:12:42 am

What are FCC emission regulations? Roohparvar says the butteriser isn't subject to those regulations

Where does he say that?

(http://i.imgur.com/x57AhrL.png)

Alexander.

And within ONE day, Dr. Roohparvar has already retracted his claim regarding FCC compliance.

Glad we could help, Bob! 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on August 27, 2015, 11:05:27 pm

Backtrack...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=168057;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Davey_Jonez on August 27, 2015, 11:31:40 pm

It is likely incidental emissions, just miss-stated the first time.
You guys think all of this is BS. Quite funny.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 28, 2015, 12:03:16 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 27, 2015, 10:59:25 pm

And within ONE day, Dr. Roohparvar has already retracted his claim regarding FCC compliance.
Glad we could help, Bob!

That's what technical forums are for!  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 28, 2015, 12:20:40 am

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on August 27, 2015, 11:31:40 pm

It is likely incidental emissions, just miss-stated the first time.

It read like a very definitive statement.
Going from no action to be taken to "our compliance team is looking into it".

Quote

You guys think all of this is BS. Quite funny.

The data shows it's mostly BS marketing, no opinion required.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 28, 2015, 12:22:30 am

Dave: even if we now have a Phony you on the forum, you should just ignore hum I think, or should I say we should ignore him unless he broke some rules (something, that I fear will happen sonner than later)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 28, 2015, 12:26:44 am

Quote from: Godzil on August 28, 2015, 12:22:30 am

Dave: even if we now have a Phony you on the forum, you should just ignore hum I think

No, lets see what Mr Davey_Jonez has to say.
Perhaps he'd like to explain how and why the Batteriser is as good as it claims.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 28, 2015, 12:38:04 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 28, 2015, 12:26:44 am

Quote from: Godzil on August 28, 2015, 12:22:30 am

Dave: even if we now have a Phony you on the forum, you should just ignore hum I think

No, lets see what Mr Davey_Jonez has to say.
Perhaps he'd like to explain how and why the Batteriser is as good as it claims.

That's a good point, I can't object to that!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 28, 2015, 01:03:28 am

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on August 27, 2015, 11:31:40 pm

It is likely incidental emissions, just miss-stated the first time.
You guys think all of this is BS. Quite funny.

I wish this was haha funny. This is now just a sad train wreck 

Batteroo's claims are readily demonstrable, utter bullshit.

Show us a specific, reproducible claim. Thus far, no one has been able to reproduce a single one of Batteroo's claims. And it is not for lack of time and expense trying. I've actually gone out of my way and purchased devices to test because these claims are so extraordinary.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 28, 2015, 01:34:38 am

All of this drama and craziness taken aside, I thank Batteriser for actually helping me learn more about electronics. With help from all the pro's in the forum, we hobbyists have gained quite a bit of understanding and more interest in battery power curves, boost circuits and practical limitations of battery powered devices. That's the main value of this thread, even though it is fun to speculate and rant about the motives and ethical indiscretions involved by the founders, the flip-flopping and non-sense with IndieGogo campaign, the increasingly amusing video rebuttals and now "meatpuppets" trolling the campaigns, forums and YouTube channel looking to attack anyone who asks a serious question. The scientific value alone is a valuable pursuit. It just so happens that it took something like Batteriser to kick off the educational opportunity.

So back to electronics. If I were to design, say, a constant current load on a battery to test drainage, could I use a variable resistor which adjusts according to the amperage setting desired for the drain current? For example, V=IR so as the battery depletes through a constant resistive load, the current will also decrease. If I wish to maintain a constant current, I would need to vary my resistive load and decrease it as my voltage drops to maintain the same current. I imagine I could use a discrete component which intrinsically keeps the current constant as it passes over it, or some comparator which evaluates the current and can vary resistances to keep the current constant?

I'm looking it up on Google... constant current source circuit... See educational off-shoots are abundant!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 28, 2015, 01:38:41 am

Quote from: edy on August 28, 2015, 01:34:38 am

The scientific value alone is a valuable pursuit. It just so happens that it took something like Batteriser to kick off the educational opportunity.

I've had many battery related videos on the channel for years before Batteriser came long  ;D
But yeah, great discussions have arisen on this thread because of it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 28, 2015, 01:58:41 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 28, 2015, 01:38:41 am

I've had many battery related videos on the channel for years before Batteriser came long  ;D
But yeah, great discussions have arisen on this thread because of it.

I will have to look them up! Many of us who subscribed to EEVBlog at different times have missed your earlier videos. I try to keep current (no pun intended) with every new video, but there will be repetition of course as beginners "re-discover" something the more experienced folks take as obvious.  :) Looking forward to more fundamental Fridays and learning what is going on in basic circuits!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 28, 2015, 02:13:07 am

Quote from: edy on August 28, 2015, 01:58:41 am

I will have to look them up!

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvOlSehNtuHtj5Ubhx7govoBfNkyUO4Pp (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvOlSehNtuHtj5Ubhx7govoBfNkyUO4Pp)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 28, 2015, 02:44:10 am

Quote from: jippie on August 27, 2015, 07:42:55 am

Whatever you do, don't sit back while telling someone else [Dave] to get going.

https://youtu.be/vfCLlhd76zU

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 28, 2015, 02:56:35 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 28, 2015, 02:13:07 am

Quote from: edy on August 28, 2015, 01:58:41 am

I will have to look them up!

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvOlSehNtuHtj5Ubhx7govoBfNkyUO4Pp (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvOlSehNtuHtj5Ubhx7govoBfNkyUO4Pp)

Awesome!!!  Yeah that was definitely before I found out about EEVBlog. I'm glad you made those categorized playlists. This one looks like exactly the answer I was looking for...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xX2SVcItOA&list=PLvOlSehNtuHtj5Ubhx7govoBfNkyUO4Pp&index=7 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xX2SVcItOA&list=PLvOlSehNtuHtj5Ubhx7govoBfNkyUO4Pp&index=7)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: coppice on August 28, 2015, 04:09:38 am

Quote from: edy on August 27, 2015, 04:25:16 pm

Not to mention the Olympus C3040 is a 14 year old digital camera:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusc3040z (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusc3040z)

Being a 14 year old camera is irrelevant, but being an Olympus camera is highly relevant. Olympus make some great products, and I've owned quite a few. However, a number of their cameras and flashguns will not turn on when you put rechargeable batteries in them. 1.25V per cell is just not enough to start them. The C3040 is a model of that kind. My wife had one, and loved it. However we always had to run it on primary cells.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 28, 2015, 05:26:29 am

Quote from: coppice on August 28, 2015, 04:09:38 am

However, a number of their cameras and flashguns will not turn on when you put rechargeable batteries in them. 1.25V per cell is just not enough to start them.

Sounds like bad design to me. DC boost circuits cost less than 50 cents.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 28, 2015, 05:49:12 am

Quote from: edy on August 28, 2015, 01:34:38 am

All of this drama and craziness taken aside, I thank Batteriser for actually helping me learn more about electronics. With help from all the pro's in the forum, we hobbyists have...

+1, Dr Roohpavar was the guy who created the false claims and controversy, Dave explained how and what, but in the end, I learnt a lot.
I am an EE working as machine designer, but never had to deal with battery powered.

Of course buck/boost and series resistance was known, but a lot of details and methods came to my eyes in this tread.
I hope some of the questions I still have get answered one day.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on August 28, 2015, 07:10:36 am

I have to agree with Galenbo, I gained a lot of knowledge by following this soap opera. You get lessons in electronics and electronic design and on top of that you get a marketing masterclass from the Batteriser crew! :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on August 28, 2015, 07:33:47 am

out of interest, how many here intend to buy the batteriser with the aim to test and disprove the claims?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 28, 2015, 08:26:07 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 27, 2015, 10:59:25 pm

And within ONE day, Dr. Roohparvar has already retracted his claim regarding FCC compliance.

Glad we could help, Bob!

I was almost sure that they will change it. That's why I screen captured it.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 28, 2015, 09:20:56 am

Quote from: dexters_lab on August 28, 2015, 07:33:47 am

out of interest, how many here intend to buy the batteriser with the aim to test and disprove the claims?

I think I openly refuse it if someone gives it as a present.
But that's pure hypothetical, "it" will never exist.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 28, 2015, 09:47:54 am

Dave,

I was just watching EEVBLOG #139: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V_p1GBH4pk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V_p1GBH4pk)

Did you ever get that thing working? 5V @ 500mA from a single AA battery seems very ambitious. If you were looking at 50-60% efficiency on the datasheets then that's a battery current of over 4 Amps!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on August 28, 2015, 10:13:58 am

Quote from: Galenbo on August 28, 2015, 09:20:56 am

Quote from: dexters_lab on August 28, 2015, 07:33:47 am

out of interest, how many here intend to buy the batteriser with the aim to test and disprove the claims?

I think I openly refuse it if someone gives it as a present.
But that's pure hypothetical, "it" will never exist.

oh i think it will exist

there does seem to be a difference to what people are expecting and what batteriser claim it will do

they are being very careful in their marketing wording. My belief is the product will only be effective in a small number of cases, but people will buy based on their perceptions. This is common for many products marketing words are spun not to make a claim but to fool the buyer into thinking it does more than they claim.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 28, 2015, 10:51:41 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 28, 2015, 09:47:54 am

Did you ever get that thing working? 5V @ 500mA from a single AA battery seems very ambitious.

It was for a D cell.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 28, 2015, 01:40:28 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on August 28, 2015, 10:13:58 am

oh i think it will exist

there does seem to be a difference to what people are expecting and what batteriser claim it will do

They are changing the claims and details in every scientific paper they publish (in the form of "video" in their culture)
So maybe after reviewing the claims enough, there will be something, but it will not be conform to the specs they made at the start of the indigogo period.
And the new "detail" that popped up makes it unsure if it can legally be sold.

Quote from: dexters_lab on August 28, 2015, 10:13:58 am

they are being very careful in their marketing wording.

I agree with that. It will continue like that, it's the guy's field of expertise.

Why did they replace the sexy twins with fattie in the last video?
Running out of budget, or are there marketing reasons also?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ozone42 on August 28, 2015, 02:16:49 pm

Watched the EEVblog #779 on the Batteriser.
On the danger of shorting out the positive battery case with the negative contacted metal shell, my company built a flow meter for Tuthill Systems in Ft. Wayne, IN. It used 2 AA batteries in a metal battery battery clips. We switched to Panasonic batteries from Duracell to save money. We found that the plastic cover on the Panasonic was only around half as thick as the Duracell.
There was a large problem with piercing of the cover by the metal holder which dead shorted the battery at the negative end of the clip into the positive shell. Never had a fire in shipment, but had very scary swelled batteries with electrolyte leakage. Product DOA at customer. Went back to the Duracells and even occasionally pierced those. Anyway, I cringe when I see the "stylish" metal cover on the Batteriser. It appears to have an edge that could cut into the positive case of the battery going around the corner on the end of the battery. Fail!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on August 28, 2015, 02:46:16 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on August 28, 2015, 01:40:28 pm

Why did they replace the sexy twins with fattie in the last video?

I am sure sex was part of the game. The girl in the famous "Batteries are not power supplies" video sounded almost as if she was undressing when reading the narrative.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on August 28, 2015, 02:58:25 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on August 28, 2015, 01:40:28 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on August 28, 2015, 10:13:58 am

oh i think it will exist

there does seem to be a difference to what people are expecting and what batteriser claim it will do

They are changing the claims and details in every scientific paper they publish (in the form of "video" in their culture)
So maybe after reviewing the claims enough, there will be something, but it will not be conform to the specs they made at the start of the indigogo period.
And the new "detail" that popped up makes it unsure if it can legally be sold.

Quote from: dexters_lab on August 28, 2015, 10:13:58 am

they are being very careful in their marketing wording.

I agree with that. It will continue like that, it's the guy's field of expertise.

Why did they replace the sexy twins with fattie in the last video?
Running out of budget, or are there marketing reasons also?

bring on the nerds for credability?

although it did make me laugh when it seemed he didn't know what he was doing:
https://youtu.be/622uCZ_pE0w?t=20m23s


as for the claims... they say "up to 8x", they never state a minimum or even a 'typical' or 'expected' value

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 28, 2015, 04:10:36 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on August 28, 2015, 02:58:25 pm

as for the claims... they say "up to 8x", they never state a minimum or even a 'typical' or 'expected' value

Should car makers be allowed to say, "Up to 100mpg!" in their adverts for huge-ass SUVs? No, of course not.

Advertising can be classed as 'false' even when the all claims are technically true.

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/media-resources/truth-advertising (https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/media-resources/truth-advertising)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 28, 2015, 05:45:55 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on August 28, 2015, 02:58:25 pm

bring on the nerds for credability?

although it did make me laugh when it seemed he didn't know what he was doing:

Doesn't look like the nerds I know. Those guys speak open and determined, don't care too much about the feelings of the guy that listens and especially if it's a hierarchic type.
I didn't do the effort to listen to what this guy had to say from his boss, his body language makes me think of the biggest arse-lickers I ran into.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on August 28, 2015, 05:59:06 pm

Hopefully Batteriser Batteroo doesn't mind me reposting their YT replies here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w)

Quote

We decided to dedicate this video to teach and inform people batteries work under different loads and understand why there is so much remaining energy in discarded batteries. We are allowing independent testers and reviewers to do all those tests you are mentioning with our Media Test Kits.

Quote

Batteriser team were offered an exclusive by a couple big tech magazines similar to PC world (who did the first exclusive). It is not official yet, but I heard the names Wired magazine, Tech Crunch, and official electronic certification for retail stores. As of now, my information is very limited on which one is doing the exclusive, but I will announce it on this YouTube channel as soon as it is decided. It will most likely be published between 1-2 weeks from now. After the exclusive, we will send out additional Media Test Kits to anyone who wants one.

So it seems we should soon know more about the Batteriser actual performance.

Perhaps they even let Dave have one of those kits.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 28, 2015, 05:59:11 pm

I just noticed this (maybe it was there before?) but on the BATTERISER.COM home page, it now says:

"Tap into 80% more energy with Batteriser."

So 80% more means if think you used 100% of your battery, then 80% more gives you 180%? So you are just slightly less than doubling your battery use (1.8x use)? I mean, it stands to reason that if someone says "Get 100% more of something" you get DOUBLE of something. No???? Or do they mean you use 20% of your battery and then the remaining 80% is unused so you are going from 20% to 100% which means you used 1/5th of your battery and you now tap into the 4/5th with the Batteriser?

Oh my god..  :scared: ... how can you keep track of what they are saying!  :wtf:

Addendum:  I just noticed under in small letters it says batteries use 20% of energy and Batteriser makes use of the 80% so I guess it is still 5x more energy (where they get 8x I don't know).

Next they'll be saying (and probably the most accurate description) is "Batteriser let's you use more than 80% of your battery".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 28, 2015, 06:15:47 pm

Battery use 20% and their stuff 80?

I can read that, like their stuff have only 20% of efficiency

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on August 28, 2015, 06:47:19 pm

What I don't get is how noisy their "snail" is at 5 times the noise to signal ratio, surely battery consumption is not as noisy as they claim to trigger the cut-off voltage prematurely.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 28, 2015, 06:49:26 pm

He sure does make a lot of basic math errors for somebody with an IQ of 1.3e+28 and over 500 patents to his name.

(...and that's still not what it says on their IndieGogo page).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 28, 2015, 07:06:52 pm

See that's the confusing part. Tapping into 80% MORE of something doesn't mean you are getting 5x more energy (going from 20% to 100% by using the remaining unused 80% is multiplying the energy 5x).

That means if you tap into 100% MORE, it means you are getting INFINITELY more energy because that means going from 0% to 100%.... 100/0 = undefined!

So the question is, when you see a box of CEREAL and they tell you the box now contained 10% MORE CEREAL, clearly if the old box was 100g, the new box has 110g. If it says 20%, the old box was 100g and the new box 120g. Then 80% more means the old box was 100g and new box 180g. 100% MORE would simply be old box 100g and new box 200g, or DOUBLE the amount.

So according to this logic, 80% MORE would mean going from 100g to 180g means the Batteriser is helping you extract roughly 1.8x the energy compared to the device WITHOUT the Batteriser (which is as reference considered "1").

That seems a lot more reasonable (although still likely to be only in a handful of very inefficient low current devices).... But the math is VERY SLIPPERY INDEED!

And I'm the one who didn't solve the Snail Riddle at first glance.  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 28, 2015, 07:13:15 pm

They are contradicting them selves in 5 lines of text...  :-// :-// :-//

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 29, 2015, 03:25:18 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 28, 2015, 07:13:15 pm

They are contradicting them selves in 5 lines of text...  :-// :-// :-//

Alexander.

Are you the Alexander who comments on their videos?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on August 29, 2015, 04:01:00 am

Hi group,

Dave has some completion !!

Watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6MIcCvbvZc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6MIcCvbvZc)

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on August 29, 2015, 04:09:34 am

I recognize that radio, that has to be a friend of Arlen :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 29, 2015, 05:07:44 am

Quote from: dcac on August 28, 2015, 05:59:06 pm

Perhaps they even let Dave have one of those kits.

They haven't contacted me yet.
You'd think they would, I'd be happy to sing it's praises if it works as well as claimed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 29, 2015, 05:14:59 am

Quote from: edy on August 28, 2015, 05:59:11 pm

I just noticed this (maybe it was there before?) but on the BATTERISER.COM home page, it now says:
"Tap into 80% more energy with Batteriser."
So 80% more means if think you used 100% of your battery, then 80% more gives you 180%? So you are just slightly less than doubling your battery use (1.8x use)? I mean, it stands to reason that if someone says "Get 100% more of something" you get DOUBLE of something. No???? Or do they mean you use 20% of your battery and then the remaining 80% is unused so you are going from 20% to 100% which means you used 1/5th of your battery and you now tap into the 4/5th with the Batteriser?

Yep, completely baffling that it's always changing. The "x8" claim is gone form their logo, and it seems form their website?

Although they are making very specific and definite claims on their website still :

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=168236;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=168238;image)

One implies that all products only tap into 20% of batteries energy.
The other says that most products only tap into 20% of batteries energy.
Both are demonstrably incorrect  :palm:
And after all this time and effort on their part, still no hard evidence of those claims, just lots of hand waving.
It's incredible simple to test. Take a dozen typical products, measure time it takes for them to die normally. Insert Batteriser, time how long extra they last.
Why can't they do this?
If any one gets some of these things, that's the test that should be done, nothing fancier needed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 29, 2015, 06:13:39 am

Quote from: ccs46 on August 29, 2015, 03:25:18 am

Quote from: firewalker on August 28, 2015, 07:13:15 pm

They are contradicting them selves in 5 lines of text...  :-// :-// :-//

Alexander.

Are you the Alexander who comments on their videos?

No.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 29, 2015, 11:11:49 am

By the way, I havn't tick on that before, but the girl that put the battery with the sleeve inside the Apple Keyboard seems to push it with some unnecesary amount of force, a normal battery should slide without any force on this device..

I fear that when they are put in such a device, it will be nearly impossible to remove... :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 29, 2015, 11:24:07 am

Quote from: Godzil on August 29, 2015, 11:11:49 am

I fear that when they are put in such a device, it will be nearly impossible to remove... :D

That could be a problem for a great many products.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on August 29, 2015, 12:41:43 pm

Has this been discussed? With the electrcally serial and physically parallel settings, the sleeves can easily touch each other and form short. The best can be just drained betteries (with OCP) and the worst can be fire. The risk is high for household users. Extra insulation coatings will make it harder to use in even more devices.

On the other hand if the miniaturization is really achieveable with given specs(?), it may be more useful as a modular component for circuit designers. They need just seal the whole thing in a small metal can with 3 leads (similar to a linear regulator) out and both the thermal and emi(?) problems may be reduced a bit too. And the potential sales can be high too.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on August 29, 2015, 02:58:22 pm

Quote from: Bud on August 28, 2015, 02:46:16 pm

I am sure sex was part of the game. The girl in the famous "Batteries are not power supplies" video sounded almost as if she was undressing when reading the narrative.

IMHO that voice sounded smug and smarmy, and was more irritating than anything. Not what I'd consider "sexy" at all. Then again, I'm not a guy... :-//

Quote from: onlooker on August 29, 2015, 12:41:43 pm

Has this been discussed? With the electrcally serial and physically parallel settings, the sleeves can easily touch each other and form short. The best can be just drained betteries (with OCP) and the worst can be fire. The risk is high for household users. Extra insulation coatings will make it harder to use in even more devices.

I think it was brought up somewhere in this or the other thread. A small length of flex would've been better, although perhaps slightly more fiddly to install.

Quote

On the other hand if the miniaturization is really achieveable with given specs(?), it may be more useful as a modular component for circuit designers. They need just seal the whole thing in a small metal can with 3 leads (similar to a linear regulator) out and both the thermal and emi(?) problems may be reduced a bit too. And the potential sales can be high too.

Integrated boost converters have been around for a long time - TI has some, for example.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 29, 2015, 03:01:46 pm

Quote from: onlooker on August 29, 2015, 12:41:43 pm

On the other hand if the miniaturization is really achieveable with given specs(?), it may be more useful as a modular component for circuit designers. They need just seal the whole thing in a small metal can with 3 leads (similar to a linear regulator) out and both the thermal and emi(?) problems may be reduced a bit too. And the potential sales can be high too.

Many devices would need more than 1.5V output, or have other requirements, better just build your own boost converter with one of the available ICs. For high power there are a lot of modules, I guess because it is more difficult to build your own and easier to replace a module if it gets broken, but for low power battery devices it is no problem. Maybe this is the reason I can find only one low power DC/DC converter module for low input voltage:
http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?keywords=893-1207-1-ND (http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?keywords=893-1207-1-ND)
Input voltage 0.9V-5V, output voltage 3.3V, 100mA, 2.5mm x 2.0mm x 1.0mm. Needs only external capacitors, inductor included.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 29, 2015, 03:02:08 pm

Quote from: onlooker on August 29, 2015, 12:41:43 pm

Has this been discussed? With the electrcally serial and physically parallel settings, the sleeves can easily touch each other and form short. The best can be just drained betteries (with OCP) and the worst can be fire. The risk is high for household users. Extra insulation coatings will make it harder to use in even more devices.

From the Batteriser FAQ (http://batteriser.com/faq/):

Q) You have mentioned the sleeve is made of stainless steel…is there a possibility of the Batteriser shorting?

A) No, the sleeve is covered with a non-conductive coating, which prevents shorting.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 29, 2015, 03:12:14 pm

Quote from: onlooker on August 29, 2015, 12:41:43 pm

On the other hand if the miniaturization is really achieveable with given specs(?), it may be more useful as a modular component for circuit designers.

Already been done: http://www.ebay.com/itm/271734570473 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/271734570473)

The converter IC is probably this one: http://www.mpja.com/download/ce830.pdf (http://www.mpja.com/download/ce830.pdf)

And there's hundreds of variations of those things.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 29, 2015, 03:16:23 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 29, 2015, 03:02:08 pm

Quote from: onlooker on August 29, 2015, 12:41:43 pm

Has this been discussed? With the electrcally serial and physically parallel settings, the sleeves can easily touch each other and form short. The best can be just drained betteries (with OCP) and the worst can be fire. The risk is high for household users. Extra insulation coatings will make it harder to use in even more devices.

From the Batteriser FAQ (http://batteriser.com/faq/):

Q) You have mentioned the sleeve is made of stainless steel…is there a possibility of the Batteriser shorting?

A) No, the sleeve is covered with a non-conductive coating, which prevents shorting.

It's worth noting that Batteroo added the coating after reading about the shorting issue here and Dave pointing that issue out on his video.  Before that, the clip was uncoated stainless.

It's so great that the EEvblog has been so instrumental in the Batteriser's development. I wonder if there will ever be attribution, or at least a simple thank you.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 29, 2015, 05:21:11 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 29, 2015, 03:16:23 pm

It's worth noting that Batteroo added the coating after reading about the shorting issue here and Dave pointing that issue out on his video.  Before that, the clip was uncoated stainless.

Let's not get carried away now, there is already a picture of 2 coated batterisers in the very first pcworld article.

I only wonder how this coating is gonna hold up after a few uncareful battery changes, but in the whole scheme of things, I would one just call a minor issue.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 29, 2015, 05:53:07 pm

Quote from: PeterL on August 29, 2015, 05:21:11 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 29, 2015, 03:16:23 pm

It's worth noting that Batteroo added the coating after reading about the shorting issue here and Dave pointing that issue out on his video.  Before that, the clip was uncoated stainless.

Let's not get carried away now, there is already a picture of 2 coated batterisers in the very first pcworld article.

I only wonder how this coating is gonna hold up after a few uncareful battery changes, but in the whole scheme of things, I would one just call a minor issue.

Those look like copper to me.
(http://images.techhive.com/images/article/2015/05/batterizer_beauty-100588200-large.jpg)

This is what happened after the shorting issue was pointed out.  And of course, Batteroo added text to address the shorting issue that was raised:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=168337;image)

EEVBlog forum points out a serious shortcoming.  Batteroo makes a change shortly thereafter.  Repeat.  It may all be a series of incredibly remarkable coincidences.   ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on August 29, 2015, 06:16:34 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 29, 2015, 05:53:07 pm

Those look like copper to me.
(http://images.techhive.com/images/article/2015/05/batterizer_beauty-100588200-large.jpg)

Probably heat "treated" stainless. It also seems a little bit more purple at the top, if I remember correctly this happens at about 350 degrees C. Maybe they tried to solder the thing by preheating it, until they figured out stainless barely takes solder.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on August 29, 2015, 06:31:54 pm

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on August 29, 2015, 06:16:34 pm

until they figured out stainless barely takes solder.

I don't think there is a reliable way to soft-solder anything to stainless.
That is why stainless is usually hard-soldered or spot welded.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 29, 2015, 06:41:55 pm

What is really incredible, is that they plan to release this stuff in november, and there are at least 5 or 6 different version of this that has been show, the copperish one, the one with pink, but we can see more different design on the videos they show..

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on August 29, 2015, 07:10:06 pm

Font face on the product is totally different from the font in their logo, i'd think this is a big mistake.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on August 29, 2015, 07:45:16 pm

Quote from: Godzil on August 29, 2015, 06:41:55 pm

What is really incredible, is that they plan to release this stuff in november, and there are at least 5 or 6 different version of this that has been show, the copperish one, the one with pink, but we can see more different design on the videos they show..

I suspected they already had had them manufactured before they began the gogo campaign, since the prototypes in the videos look rather polished, but I'm not so sure any more since they appear to continuously update the design based on feedback from dave and this forum.  :-\

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 29, 2015, 07:53:33 pm

In one of their videos they show someone putting them in an Apple wireless keyboard, with the typical "battery tube" end-loader. I'd much prefer to see them getting the batteries back out of it, that would be a much more entertaining video! :)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on August 29, 2015, 08:19:49 pm

Hi group,

the 800% explanation.

This is from the Batteriser Patent Application.

If one looks at the potential return of such a device in terms of lifetime of a battery, one can see significant benefits. For instance, the AA battery in the above example would use roughly the equivalent charge of the battery output in the range of 1.5V to 1.4V. This means that after 0.1V drop, the battery's life is over. If the battery could be used until its voltage reaches 0.8V, then after 0.7V drop the battery's life is over. If one were to assume that the time versus the voltage drop is a linear function, then the life of the battery could be improved by a factor of 7 in this example. However, advantageously the time versus voltage drop is not quite linear. The time it takes for the battery voltage to drop by 0.1V is longer at lower voltages versus at higher voltages. That means that if a constant current was drawn from the battery, it would take the battery a lot longer to discharge from 1.2V to 1.1V than it would from 1.5V to 1.4V. This means that the extent to which the battery life is increased could be even higher than the factor of 7 in the above example above.

It is noted that the regulation circuit has a certain efficiency which cuts back on the extent to which the battery life is extended though the life time reduction is rather minimal. During operation, the regulator itself uses a certain amount of current from the battery. A lot of the available DC to DC converters have high efficiencies of around 95%. That is, of power supplied by the battery, 5% is used by the converter and the rest is available for the end user. However, the 5% efficiency loss due to use of a converter, when compared to the 700% gain in efficiency of the battery, is negligible. It is further noted, that the converter efficiency may drop as the battery voltage drops due to use. For example, as the battery voltage drops from 1.5V to 1V, the efficiency of the converter may drop down to 50% to 60%. However, 50% efficiency is still a significant improvement over the current approach of discarding the batteries because their voltage has dropped below the operable voltage range (i.e., 1.4-1.5V).



Since they talk about the battery having a linear discharge curve, we can treat this as a capacitor:

Assume a AA battery is 2Ahr the capacitance is 3600x2 = 7200F

I=C dv/dt

Assume the powered device has a cut-off voltage of 1.4, the voltage has to fall 0.1V

Assume a 50mA power consumption

solving for t

The device runs for 14400 seconds.


Now will introduce a lossless Boost converter.

The properties of a boost converter are power is preserved, the power consumption from the battery will be constant,

The power consumption is 1.5V x 50mA = 75mW

If the Starting voltage is V_o

And the end point voltage is V₁

The discharge time can be calculated as

t = 0.5 x C (V₀² - V₁²) / power consumption


If I plug in the numbers I get

T= 0.5 x 7200 (1.5² - 0.7²)/75mW  = 84,480 seconds

Even in this idealised case the time multiplier is

84,480 / 14400 = 5.8x

If the cut-off is 1.3V the multiplier is x0.5 = 2.9x


It seems like Dr. Bob didn't get the math right in the patent application !!

Adding inefficiencies, or raising the UVLO for the boost circuit only makes this worse not better.


Of course the battery discharge is not a linear function of time, it has a plateau in it. Any product that is designed (correctly) until after the plateau will work longer without the batteriser than with it.

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on August 29, 2015, 10:03:16 pm

Jay_Diddy_B,
I don't know where you find the time to devote to disproving the batteriser claims. Nonetheless, good job. The scientific community requires proof for a claim, however, it seems, rather sadly, that the consumer market accepts a claim blindly and requires someone to DISPROVE it. If more people paid attention to the EEVblog, I don't think they would even spend their time laughing at their silly claims.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 29, 2015, 10:04:02 pm

They answered one of my question on Youtube, see the "Batteriser - Full length Batteriser explanation video" video. The answer is a bit confusing, and with obvious errors in it ("Y axis is hours"). Another one answered to their answer, they deleted it. I found the text still in my eMail notification:

Quote

gblargg: +Batteriser Batteroo From Wikipedia, you need to include the voltage to determine power remaining in the battery: "An ampere-hour is not a unit of energy. In a battery system, for example, accurate calculation of the energy delivered requires integration of the power delivered (product of instantaneous voltage and instantaneous current) over the discharge interval. Generally, the battery voltage varies during discharge; an average value or nominal value may be used to approximate the integration of power."?

The text from wikipedia is from this article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampere-hour). But this Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_%28electricity%29) says "Capacity is measured in units such as amp-hour (A·h)" and this is what I can see on my batteries here. Before I answer, is it right to measure the capacity in mAh? What terminal voltage is used for it? I know physically it is not accurate, because as the Wikipedia ampere-hour article says, you have to integrate it over time with the current voltage and current. Would be better if the batteries would specify the capacity in Wh.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 29, 2015, 10:23:21 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on August 29, 2015, 10:04:02 pm

The text from wikipedia is from this article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampere-hour). But this Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_%28electricity%29) says "Capacity is measured in units such as amp-hour (A·h)" and this is what I can see on my batteries here. Before I answer, is it right to measure the capacity in mAh?

No it's not right, and anyone who does any serious work with battery capacity and energy knows that.
But, it is common to simply (incorrectly) use mAh, as it's actually generally not that far off as evidenced by the almost linear capacity curve in my blog post and video here:
(http://www.eevblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/CoppertopAA-DischargeCapacityGraph-Line.png)

If everyone uses mAh then it's an acceptable comparison metric.

Quote

What terminal voltage is used for it? I know physically it is not accurate, because as the Wikipedia ampere-hour article says, you have to integrate it over time with the current voltage and current. Would be better if the batteries would specify the capacity in Wh.

Wh is common on mobile phone and laptop batteries, because of confusion with multi-cell packs of different voltages.
Wh is the only true measure of capacity, and it's no different for single Alkaline cells.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 29, 2015, 10:26:00 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 29, 2015, 05:53:07 pm

EEVBlog forum points out a serious shortcoming.  Batteroo makes a change shortly thereafter.  Repeat.  It may all be a series of incredibly remarkable coincidences.   ;)

Only a dozen times in a row now. Yeah, must be coincidence.
(https://uldissprogis.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/plausible.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 29, 2015, 10:30:27 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 29, 2015, 03:16:23 pm

It's so great that the EEvblog has been so instrumental in the Batteriser's development. I wonder if there will ever be attribution, or at least a simple thank you.

It seems that no one on the forum, including myself, have been offered sample units to test.
You'd think they could get no better technical feedback (and real glowing reviews proving it really works) than from those on here  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 29, 2015, 11:32:03 pm

If I remember correctly a few year year ago, it has been decided that battery capacity must be displayed in Wh instead of the more commonly used (m)Ah due to some international regulation. It may only touch Lithium based battery I'm not sure.

Does anyone knows more about that?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on August 30, 2015, 01:42:23 am

Quote from: Godzil on August 29, 2015, 11:32:03 pm

If I remember correctly a few year year ago, it has been decided that battery capacity must be displayed in Wh instead of the more commonly used (m)Ah due to some international regulation. It may only touch Lithium based battery I'm not sure.

Does anyone knows more about that?

The batteries themselves might, but that doesn't stop manufacturers from using Ah instead to make their capacity look larger.

Best example: USB power banks.  It drives me insane when I see ads saying that a 10,000 mAh USB power bank can charge a 2,000 mAh smartphone five times.  Little do they know, that the 10,000 mAh rating is at the 3.7 volts of the lithium cells inside the unit (all in parallel), and the mAh that you get out of the unit is much less when you convert to Wh, then back to mAh @ 5v that it gets boosted to by the boost converter.  (not to mention the losses)

Marketing marketing marketing

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 30, 2015, 03:49:36 am

Here's a quick refresher for beginners on Ah vs. Wh:

http://www.goalzero.com/solarlife/2013/05/28/clearing-up-the-question-of-battery-capacity-in-electronics/ (http://www.goalzero.com/solarlife/2013/05/28/clearing-up-the-question-of-battery-capacity-in-electronics/)

...and those mAh ratings on cellphone recharging power banks cannot be believed, especially so many brands that completely over-state the capacity and even fill up the batteries with flour or sand to make the weight heavier! Wow!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 07:52:01 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on August 29, 2015, 10:04:02 pm

is it right to measure the capacity in mAh? What terminal voltage is used for it? I know physically it is not accurate, because as the Wikipedia ampere-hour article says, you have to integrate it over time with the current voltage and current. Would be better if the batteries would specify the capacity in Wh.

'Better' depends on the device. mAh is a more useful metric for a constant current device, Wh is more useful for a constant power device.

In reality, neither can be used to sit down and calculate exactly how long a battery is going to last because there's other factors, eg. temperature.

The main point of battery markings is to be able to compare batteries with each other. mAh works for that.

The car analogy would be "mpg"*. It lets you compare cars with each other but everybody knows that you won't get that fuel consumption in practice.

(Or l/100km, depending on where you live)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 30, 2015, 08:20:31 am

Another Batteriser rendering now.
Completely busting the monkey video, with the real monkey.
Yes, lots of waffle  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 30, 2015, 08:21:23 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 30, 2015, 08:20:31 am

Another Batteriser rendering now.
Completely busting the monkey video, with the real monkey.
Yes, lots of waffle  ;D

I'm looking forward to watching you play with your monkey ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 30, 2015, 08:32:56 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_FYDJz5GIE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_FYDJz5GIE)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 30, 2015, 08:42:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 30, 2015, 08:20:31 am

Another Batteriser rendering now.
Completely busting the monkey video, with the real monkey.
Yes, lots of waffle  ;D

Dave, tell us the truth; you really like to do theses videos :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 30, 2015, 08:42:47 am

Just saw this...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=168473;image)

Where on earth could anyone possibly get that idea from!?!

(http://i.imgur.com/x57AhrL.png)

 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 30, 2015, 08:47:24 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 30, 2015, 08:42:47 am

Just saw this...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=168473;image)

Where on earth could anyone possibly get that idea from!?!

(http://i.imgur.com/x57AhrL.png)

 :-DD

He answer to the BB question should be

"In one monkey butt"

/me is searching for a door...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 09:09:14 am

This is interesting for people playing the 'politics' game.

http://batteriser.com/batteroo-names-three-new-members-to-its-board-of-directors/ (http://batteriser.com/batteroo-names-three-new-members-to-its-board-of-directors/)

Some new guys joined the Batteroo gang last week, "to provide governance and oversight of the company". One of them is from SK Telecom, another is from a different venture capitalist called Morgenthaler Ventures.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 09:19:00 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 30, 2015, 08:42:47 am

Just saw this...

 :-DD

No, no, no...

The comedy is how this (original response):
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=168481;image)

Became this (what it says today):
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/?action=dlattach;attach=168483;image)

There must have been a real "Oh, shit!" moment between those two posts.


Still, credit where credit is due: He did manage to put a compliance "team" together in less than 24 hours. On a weekend.   :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on August 30, 2015, 10:07:22 am

They will also need to comply with the EU "CE" requirements for the EMC directive.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 30, 2015, 10:23:40 am

Latest video busting that poor Monkey:

(may not be finished processing)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-m-7jex88k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-m-7jex88k)

Technical comments should be really be on the other thread for the previous video:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on August 30, 2015, 10:32:00 am

I love that Troll there............ ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on August 30, 2015, 10:44:52 am

I have a Crompton TCL lithium primary cell that is dead, but it still has 3V7 into 10M, but internal resistance is in the tens of kilohms range. Expired a decade ago, but still good enough to run a CMOS memory which uses less than 1uA in standby.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 10:53:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 30, 2015, 10:23:40 am

Latest video busting that poor Monkey:

Where did you get the troll?  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SundayProgrammer on August 30, 2015, 10:59:30 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 30, 2015, 10:23:40 am

Latest video busting that poor Monkey:

(may not be finished processing)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-m-7jex88k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-m-7jex88k)

Technical comments should be really be on the other thread for the previous video:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/)

Major frustration noticed :-)

Axel.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on August 30, 2015, 11:00:13 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 10:53:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 30, 2015, 10:23:40 am

Latest video busting that poor Monkey:

Where did you get the troll?  :)

eBay? They probably still are on sale around somewhere, or Dave went out to the local toy store and bought one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 30, 2015, 11:11:41 am

I just found another anti-batteroo video:
Love the "Unstupid" title!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh1BzB2dXIM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh1BzB2dXIM)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 11:21:41 am

"This video is unlisted. Be considerate and think twice before sharing."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 11:32:06 am

Two thumbs up! This is the video you should have made last time.

PS: The battery that leaked could have had a bit more airtime. If batteriser drains every last drop of energy from people's batteries (as they claim) then it's a real danger.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 30, 2015, 11:35:35 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 11:32:06 am

Two thumbs up! This is the video you should have made last time.

PS: The battery that leaked could have had a bit more airtime. If batteriser drains every last drop of energy from people's batteries (as they claim) then it's a real danger.

And it won't just be when the device is in use, as the butteriser will still put a noticeable load on the battery, even without a load on its output....

So you could leave a device with "working" batteries, only to come back a month or two later, and find the butteriser has over discharged them, and caused them to leak....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 11:58:19 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 30, 2015, 11:35:35 am

And it won't just be when the device is in use, as the butteriser will still put a noticeable load on the battery, even without a load on its output....

We don't know that for sure.

OTOH they can't go into a shutdown mode in a general purpose booster like this. It's supposed to be able to power remote controls and keyboards so they can't say "stop boosting at less than 1mA current drain" (or whatever).

Yes, many booster ICs actually do that, even the cheapo eBay ones. eg.  this one (http://www.mpja.com/download/ce830.pdf) will shut down and consume a few microamps when it detects no load on the output or when it finds it can no longer maintain the output voltage. Batteriser can't do that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 30, 2015, 12:28:23 pm

Dave: you're video miss some really important things, there is no oscilloscope with uncalibrated probe and no new soldering iron not connected on your bench, that's why you don't the same results  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 30, 2015, 01:56:38 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 11:58:19 am

We don't know that for sure.
OTOH they can't go into a shutdown mode in a general purpose booster like this. It's supposed to be able to power remote controls and keyboards so they can't say "stop boosting at less than 1mA current drain" (or whatever).

That's going to be the trick.
Making a boost converter go into standby is easy peasy, but trying to do it from a general purpose product that is supposed to work on anything from a low power remote control to a high powered toy may not be easy.
It will be interesting to get one and measure it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 30, 2015, 02:14:18 pm

I've just got a revelation!

Batteroo is just trying to apply on of the standard in the industry to the battery usage:

Do more, with less

I think we can safely say that a lot of company works like this so it should be some sort of a truth: it is possible to do more with less.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 02:32:25 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 30, 2015, 01:56:38 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 11:58:19 am

We don't know that for sure.
OTOH they can't go into a shutdown mode in a general purpose booster like this. It's supposed to be able to power remote controls and keyboards so they can't say "stop boosting at less than 1mA current drain" (or whatever).

That's going to be the trick.
Making a boost converter go into standby is easy peasy, but trying to do it from a general purpose product that is supposed to work on anything from a low power remote control to a high powered toy may not be easy.
It will be interesting to get one and measure it.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at Batteroo when things like this are revealed to them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 30, 2015, 02:43:26 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 09:19:00 am

There must have been a real "Oh, shit!" moment between those two posts.

Still, credit where credit is due: He did manage to put a compliance "team" together in less than 24 hours. On a weekend.   :-DD

Did they start manufacturing? If they look into this problem now, it is possible that they could trash everything already produced and major design changes might be needed. Then the planned delivery in November this year is ambitious.

BTW: for those playing along at home, I did a discharge test myself. I had an Arduino at hand, below is a sketch for a simple voltmeter. I didn't use the "delay" function, because this would be not accurate, because I don't know how long the serial output and ADC measure needs. The best way is to use a timer, with auto reload on compare, because then my interrupt function is called exactly once per second. Don't use the timer overload mode and reload in interrupt, because then again there are some cycles for the interrupt latency are added (parts of the code found somewhere on the internet). If you wonder about the magic value 209.0f: I just feed 3V to it, used Serial.println(val), then calculated the factor with val/3. Because of the 10 bit ADC it is not very accurate for low voltages, but still better than 10% down to 0.3V.

Then I used my RK8511 DC electronic load (you can use "EEVblog #102 - DIY Constant Current Dummy Load for Power Supply and Battery Testing" instead) and set it to 100 mA constant current. This is the result for a not fresh Rayovac AAA battery (diagram based on every 100th value, because Open Office gets terrible slow on my PC with too many values in diagrams) :

(http://www.frank-buss.de/battery/discharge.png)

The full data and calculations are in this Open Office document: http://www.frank-buss.de/battery/discharge.ods (http://www.frank-buss.de/battery/discharge.ods)
The battery was not fresh, so the 0.76 Wh capacity looks reasonable. The datasheet (http://www.rayovac.com/~/media/Rayovac/Files/Product%20Guides/pg_battery.ashx) says "963 mAh capacity to 0.9V" for 120 mA.

Code: [Select]

int ledPin = 13;
int analogPin = 5;

void setup()
{
  Serial.begin(115200);
  pinMode(ledPin, OUTPUT);
 
  // initialize timer1
  noInterrupts(); // disable all interrupts
  TCCR1A = 0;
  TCCR1B = 0;
  TCNT1 = 0;
 
  OCR1A = 15625; // compare match register for 1s delay
  TCCR1B |= (1 << WGM12); // CTC mode
  TCCR1B |= (1 << CS12) | (1 << CS10); // 1024 prescaler
  TIMSK1 |= (1 << OCIE1A); // enable timer compare interrupt
  interrupts(); // enable all interrupts
}

ISR(TIMER1_COMPA_vect)
{
  char buf[16];
  digitalWrite(ledPin, digitalRead(ledPin) ^ 1);
  float val = analogRead(analogPin) / 209.0f;
  dtostrf(val, 6, 3, buf);
  Serial.println(buf);
}

void loop()
{
}


Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 03:02:58 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on August 30, 2015, 02:43:26 pm

Did they start manufacturing?

Let's hope so.  >:D

Quote from: FrankBuss on August 30, 2015, 02:43:26 pm

I didn't use the "delay" function, because this would be not accurate, because I don't know how long the serial output and ADC measure needs.

Correct.

Quote from: FrankBuss on August 30, 2015, 02:43:26 pm

The best way is to use a timer, with auto reload on compare, because then my interrupt function is called exactly once per second.

Interrupts are generally bad and can cause many side effects.

Code: [Select]

ISR(TIMER1_COMPA_vect)
{
  ...
  Serial.println(buf);  // Boom!
}
For example: You're not allowed to use 'Serial' in an interrupt because you might interrupt the function which is taking bytes out of the Serial buffer, causing a cash.

If you want accurate timing you can rely on the fact that millis() changes at regular intervals. For a 1-second delay you can watch the value of millis() and wait until it's 1000 ticks higher than the previous update. It doesn't matter how much processing you do in-between.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on August 30, 2015, 03:05:44 pm

Dave you are not playing in the same ballpark as their marketing dept.
They make a 2 minute video which everyone can understand (although wrong) with a sexy woman voice, nice graphic overlays and a big dumb looking EE , and you answer with a 20+ minute tech video with (lets skip the voice) an intelligent EE.
A lot of people will skip it after their 1 minute attention span  :(  Mission failed.
You really should make a short 2 minute video , let your wife do the voice over , have some catchy nice graphic overlay and then you can cope with their marketing BS  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 30, 2015, 03:24:22 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 03:02:58 pm

For example: You're not allowed to use 'Serial' in an interrupt because you might interrupt the function which is taking bytes out of the Serial buffer, causing a cash.

Why causes this a crash? At least it worked for 8 hours, but in general you are right, never a good idea to do something fancy like serial port data transfer in an interrupt. Would be better to use the interrupt just to set a flag that a second has passed, which then can be used in "loop".

Quote

If you want accurate timing you can rely on the fact that millis() changes at regular intervals. For a 1-second delay you can watch the value of millis() and wait until it's 1000 ticks higher than the previous update. It doesn't matter how much processing you do in-between.

Right, this would be better and more portable, because not every Arduino clone is based on AVR. But would need special handling for periods longer than 49.7 days when it wraps. Microsoft didn't care for Windows 98, so it hangs after this time if not patched (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/216641).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 03:58:51 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on August 30, 2015, 03:24:22 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 03:02:58 pm

For example: You're not allowed to use 'Serial' in an interrupt because you might interrupt the function which is taking bytes out of the Serial buffer, causing a cash.

Why causes this a crash?

Serial code isn't thread-safe. Your interrupt is modifying variables in 'Serial'. The main thread might also be doing it. If the two collide, then, boom! In your case your 'loop()' is empty so you're probably OK.

Other problems? What if the serial output buffer is full? Your interrupt will hang the system because the interrupt that sends data will never happen so no data can be sent (your interrupt takes priority).

Quote from: FrankBuss on August 30, 2015, 03:24:22 pm

At least it worked for 8 hours

Yes, that's the scary thing about interrupts. Errors need exactly the right set of circumstances to appear.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 30, 2015, 04:06:18 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on August 30, 2015, 03:05:44 pm

Dave you are not playing in the same ballpark as their marketing dept.
They make a 2 minute video which everyone can understand (although wrong) with a sexy woman voice, nice graphic overlays and a big dumb looking EE , and you answer with a 20+ minute tech video with (lets skip the voice) an intelligent EE.
A lot of people will skip it after their 1 minute attention span  :(  Mission failed.
You really should make a short 2 minute video , let your wife do the voice over , have some catchy nice graphic overlay and then you can cope with their marketing BS  :-+

I don't think Dave or anyone here really cares to influence the Batteriser campaign to the average Joe Public. There is no need to fight their garbage videos of marketing with short dumb-downed videos with Sexy lady voices. I'd rather have an intelligent EE-level video for as long as is needed to learn the science. I am here to learn EE, not save the world from fools who buy crap... that is not ever going to be achieved.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on August 30, 2015, 04:09:23 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 03:02:58 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on August 30, 2015, 02:43:26 pm

I didn't use the "delay" function, because this would be not accurate, because I don't know how long the serial output and ADC measure needs.

Correct.

Quote from: FrankBuss on August 30, 2015, 02:43:26 pm

The best way is to use a timer, with auto reload on compare, because then my interrupt function is called exactly once per second.

Interrupts are generally bad and can cause many side effects.

Code: [Select]

ISR(TIMER1_COMPA_vect)
{
  ...
  Serial.println(buf);  // Boom!
}
For example: You're not allowed to use 'Serial' in an interrupt because you might interrupt the function which is taking bytes out of the Serial buffer, causing a cash.

If you want accurate timing you can rely on the fact that millis() changes at regular intervals. For a 1-second delay you can watch the value of millis() and wait until it's 1000 ticks higher than the previous update. It doesn't matter how much processing you do in-between.

You can use the ISR to read the analog pin and set a global flag to notify the main loop about new result. In that way you would keep the ISR short, clean and well-behaving. The main loop will just wait for the flag to be set and then read the variable containing the analog pin, clear the flag and do the computing + printf-sutff. In this particular case it might be enough that the ISR just set the global flag at 1 second interval and the main program would just wait for the flag to be set by the ISR, clear it, and then read the analog pin value, do the processing and print the result.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 30, 2015, 04:18:45 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on August 30, 2015, 04:09:23 pm

You can use the ISR to read the analog pin and set a global flag to notify the main loop about new result. In that way you would keep the ISR short, clean and well-behaving. The main loop will just wait for the flag to be set and then read the variable containing the analog pin, clear the flag and do the computing + printf-sutff. In this particular case it might be enough that the ISR just set the global flag at 1 second interval and the main program would just wait for the flag to be set by the ISR, clear it, and then read the analog pin value, do the processing and print the result.

It will prevent some possible corruptions scenario, but it's not either correct in this way, because the INT could occur at the moment where the main read the data, and you could miss/loss some value in this situation.

The only solution to be sure that there is no corruption would be to use a FIFO, so the INT stack the data read, the serial will unstack data to send.

In the current program sending from the INT or your approach will work only because the INT occurs every 1 second, and sending the data take much less than 1s so conflict/corruption is really unlikely to occur.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on August 30, 2015, 04:26:36 pm

Quote from: Godzil on August 30, 2015, 04:18:45 pm

In the current program sending from the INT or your approach will work only because the INT occurs every 1 second, and sending the data take much less than 1s so conflict/corruption is really unlikely to occur.

Exactly this is assumed in my suggestion that the main loop will be able to complete the computation and print before the next ISR will occur. Otherwise there would be a need for a queue, and the queues can also overflow if the input rate is higher than the output rate. Only when the processing rate can match the input rate, the system will behave correctly.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 04:34:04 pm

Quote from: edy on August 30, 2015, 04:06:18 pm

I don't think Dave or anyone here really cares to influence the Batteriser campaign to the average Joe Public.

Nope.

But some tech site might pick up on it and do an article.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on August 30, 2015, 04:47:46 pm

Quote from: Godzil on August 30, 2015, 04:18:45 pm

In the current program sending from the INT or your approach will work only because the INT occurs every 1 second, and sending the data take much less than 1s so conflict/corruption is really unlikely to occur.

Using an oscilloscope with one or two channels is a simple way to estimate how well your system behaves and how deterministic the system is in time-wise. Dedicate two GPIO pins for the oscolliscope monitoring: One GPIO for the ISR and the other GPIO for the main loop. When the ISR starts, set the ISR GPIO to "1" and when the ISR is completed set the GPIO to "0". Same thing in the main loop: When the main loop is triggered set the main loop GPIO to "1" and when the main loop is completed set the GPIO back to "0". Now, hooking the dual channel oscilloscope to the GPIOs, setting the triggering to the ISR GPIO rising edge, one can observe the ISR and main loop processing times and the processing jitter. Using a digital oscilloscope, set the display mode to indefinitive persistence and let the system run for few hours/days and observe the jitter and maximum processing time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 30, 2015, 05:08:14 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 04:34:04 pm

Quote from: edy on August 30, 2015, 04:06:18 pm

I don't think Dave or anyone here really cares to influence the Batteriser campaign to the average Joe Public.

Nope.

But some tech site might pick up on it and do an article.

I think the best approach is to continue to analyze the scientific issues behind this, and many other products. I agree, the chatter will be picked up by other tech sites and hopefully people who think of buying either existing stuff or support crowd-funding campaigns would do their research before jumping in. Let's face it, there is a sucker born every minute. All we can do is try to give a few of those suckers at least a healthy bit of skepticism by offering a more educated scientifically-founded critique to counterbalance the marketing hyperbole.

We can't make it a personal thing or a crusade. It will be a full time job trying to fight every single device, gadget, Kickstarter or IndieGogo campaign out there. There have been worse things already making way more money, and the flood of these gadgets does not seem to be abating. The crowd-funding sites turn a blind eye and the Internet media blog syndicate for the most part just wants to repeat the same media press kit to gain clicks and ad revenue.

What I love about EEVBlog is that we have a great community of people who all want to learn or teach or just chat about electronics. These "scam" devices just give Dave and the forums more variety of topical subjects to ramble about, refresh our fundamentals and joke around. But at the end of the day, we hope the world is listening in and can learn from it, or some media site will run "the other side of the story - one based on knowledge and truth" but even if nobody else cares, at least if Google indexes it, a few people may actually open up their eyes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 05:12:10 pm

Quote from: Godzil on August 30, 2015, 04:18:45 pm

In the current program sending from the INT or your approach will work only because the INT occurs every 1 second, and sending the data take much less than 1s so conflict/corruption is really unlikely to occur.

Yep.

PS: If you want to see it crash just add "Serial.print('X');" to your loop()

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 30, 2015, 05:37:27 pm

I wrote a more portable version of the Arduino-voltage logger. Has a bit more jitter than the interrupt version, but this is not important for the 1 s sample clock. It should work on any Arduino and not crash. I think it might even work longer than 50 days, because of the magics of "unsigned int" sub/add C-behaviour.

Code: [Select]

int ledPin = 13;
int analogPin = 5;
unsigned long time = 0;

void setup()
{
  Serial.begin(115200);
  pinMode(ledPin, OUTPUT);
}

void loop()
{
  // wait for next second
  while (true) {
    unsigned long t2 = millis();
    if (t2 - time >= 1000) {
      time += 1000;
      break;
    }
  }

  // measure ADC input, scale and send to serial port
  char buf[16];
  float val = analogRead(analogPin) / 209.0f;
  dtostrf(val, 6, 3, buf);
  Serial.println(buf);
  digitalWrite(ledPin, digitalRead(ledPin) ^ 1);
}


Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 05:52:12 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on August 30, 2015, 05:37:27 pm

I wrote a more portable version of the Arduino-voltage logger. Has a bit more jitter than the interrupt version, but this is not important for the 1 s sample clock.

How did you measure that? I can't see how it would be more than a dozen clock cycles.

Quote from: FrankBuss on August 30, 2015, 05:37:27 pm

Code: [Select]

{
  ...
  digitalWrite(ledPin, digitalRead(ledPin) ^ 1);
}


Not really correct ... you aren't supposed to assume what the values of "HIGH" or "LOW" are.

If you want to use the ^ operator then:

Code: [Select]


  digitalWrite(ledPin, digitalRead(ledPin) ^ (HIGH^LOW));

;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 30, 2015, 06:10:14 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 05:52:12 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on August 30, 2015, 05:37:27 pm

I wrote a more portable version of the Arduino-voltage logger. Has a bit more jitter than the interrupt version, but this is not important for the 1 s sample clock.

How did you measure that? I can't see how it would be more than a dozen clock cycles.

I didn't measure it. But I assume "millis" is set in an interrupt, and then there is the length of the tests in the while loop, but right, maybe not more than a dozen cycles.

Quote

Not really correct ... you aren't supposed to assume what the values of "HIGH" or "LOW" are.

If you want to use the ^ operator then:

Code: [Select]


  digitalWrite(ledPin, digitalRead(ledPin) ^ (HIGH^LOW));

;)

I had to think about it, but right, this works for any value for HIGH and LOW, if it is not equal, clever code :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 06:30:57 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on August 30, 2015, 06:10:14 pm

Quote

If you want to use the ^ operator then:

Code: [Select]


  digitalWrite(ledPin, digitalRead(ledPin) ^ (HIGH^LOW));

;)

I had to think about it, but right, this works for any value for HIGH and LOW, if it is not equal, clever code :)

Personally I would write:

Code: [Select]


digitalWrite(ledPin, !digitalRead(ledPin));


This is neater and easier to read/type. It's not technically quite as correct as "^(HIGH^LOW)" but it's unlikely to break. It relies on ANSI C's definition of 'true' and 'false', the Arduino people wouldn't dare break that (the result would be apocalyptic).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on August 30, 2015, 08:25:26 pm

something is screwy so I took a screen shot of it

talking about Arduino code on this topic ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 30, 2015, 08:31:19 pm

Too many tabs open Fungus?  ::)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 08:31:51 pm

Quote from: ez24 on August 30, 2015, 08:25:26 pm

something is screwy so I took a screen shot of it

talking about Arduino code on this topic ?

Arduino code that plots battery discharge curves. Yes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on August 30, 2015, 08:46:01 pm

Have you guys seen the batteriser video where they demo the batteriser in an apple bluetooth keyboard?  It's ridiculous and REALLY misleading to the average joe.

They put in "dead" batteries that show 13% capacity left in OS X on the laptop it's paired to, then they pop those same batteries into batterisers, then back into the keyboard, then the OS power monitor for the keyboard shows the keyboard is at 100%.  They were VERY careful with their wording in that video.  Not once did they ever say the word energy or capacity.  They only said "these dead batteries show 13%" and "it now shows 100%".  That will mislead the general public to believe that it means it's actually full capacity, but obviously the capacity monitor uses battery voltage to give you a capacity percent.  When you boost the voltage back up to the voltage of fresh cells, the capacity monitor will think the batteries are at full capacity, which is not even remotely true in that case.  For all we know, those batteries actually have only 15 minutes of juice left in them but due to their misleading video, people will assume it'll go as long as fresh batteries would last when you use the batteriser on empty cells.  Grrrrrrrrrrrrr those fools are driving me insane.  Link to said video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4zjWynjEo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4zjWynjEo)

Their website FAQ section had a question about current capability and their answer was "No, the Batteriser sleeve is designed to deliver as much current as a battery is able to supply to the device."  :bullshit: So.... I'm supposed to believe that their boost converter using an inductor half the size of a grain of rice is capable of 5-10 amps like a fresh AA battery can put out?  Baloney.  There's a reason why they never used batteriser in that stupid monkey, and why their "demo" videos are always in really low current devices like remotes, bluetooth keyboards, low power 3.5mm led flashlights, etc.

I made a video about this a couple weeks ago because I was so pissed when I saw that video.  Their other videos are pretty dubious also, but that's no surprise.  I'm VERY excited for my campaign rewards.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 30, 2015, 08:54:27 pm

Quote from: 5ky on August 30, 2015, 08:46:01 pm

Have you guys seen the batteriser video where they demo the batteriser in an apple bluetooth keyboard?  It's ridiculous and REALLY misleading to the average joe.

Already tested.  Totally false claim:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/msg730784/#msg730784 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/msg730784/#msg730784)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on August 30, 2015, 09:00:09 pm

Quote from: 5ky on August 30, 2015, 08:46:01 pm

They only said "these dead batteries show 13%" and "it now shows 100%".  That will mislead the general public to believe that it means it's actually full capacity, but obviously the capacity monitor uses battery voltage to give you a capacity percent.

Thats what they do with all their videos...

In the GPS video, they claim that the GPS "stopped functioning".... which it did, till the "ok" message on the screen was pressed, then the GPS would have kept working for another 8 hours.

They never claimed the batteries to be depleted, or that they're reached the cut off voltage of the GPS...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on August 30, 2015, 09:01:48 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on August 30, 2015, 08:54:27 pm

Quote from: 5ky on August 30, 2015, 08:46:01 pm

Have you guys seen the batteriser video where they demo the batteriser in an apple bluetooth keyboard?  It's ridiculous and REALLY misleading to the average joe.

Already tested.  Totally false claim:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/msg730784/#msg730784 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/msg730784/#msg730784)

Well you just saved me $69.  I was going to go buy one to test, but I guess I don't have to.  (not that it really needed to be tested--they know exactly what they're doing, and what they're doing is misleading the general public)

What pisses me off is that if they were honest from the start about everything, this could and would still be a successful device with decent uses.  There ARE some applications where you could potentially get some more life out of a set of batteries, but when they make broad claims about "most devices only use 20%" sort of crap--ahhhhhh it makes me so mad.  I need a beer.

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 30, 2015, 09:00:09 pm

Quote from: 5ky on August 30, 2015, 08:46:01 pm

They only said "these dead batteries show 13%" and "it now shows 100%".  That will mislead the general public to believe that it means it's actually full capacity, but obviously the capacity monitor uses battery voltage to give you a capacity percent.

Thats what they do with all their videos...

In the GPS video, they claim that the GPS "stopped functioning".... which it did, till the "ok" message on the screen was pressed, then the GPS would have kept working for another 8 hours.

They never claimed the batteries to be depleted, or that they're reached the cut off voltage of the GPS...

And I know they know EXACTLY what they're doing because they suspiciously know what words to say, and what words NOT to say in their "demo" videos.  Sneaky f'n snakes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on August 30, 2015, 09:10:55 pm

Quote from: Fungus on August 30, 2015, 08:31:51 pm

Quote from: ez24 on August 30, 2015, 08:25:26 pm

something is screwy so I took a screen shot of it

talking about Arduino code on this topic ?

Arduino code that plots battery discharge curves. Yes.

oh sorry

Has anyone built a breadboard circuit to do what the Batteriser is suppose to do and chart the graphs under different loads?  Seems with all the smart people here this would be simple to do and now we have arduino code to help.

It would be interesting to see what a real high efficiency circuit could do.  There is a battery grapher guy here but not sure if he could put the circuit together (I lost his name)  but he sure can make some nice battery graphs.  I suggest someone make up a circuit and send it to him to test with his test equipment.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on August 30, 2015, 09:19:02 pm

Quote from: ez24 on August 30, 2015, 09:10:55 pm

Has anyone built a breadboard circuit...

Jay_Diddy_B

Check this thread...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 30, 2015, 10:45:02 pm

I'm wondering if the thing is UL listed, someone on their latest videos said they could not find it in the database, they are asking for Baterisers model number.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on August 30, 2015, 10:45:50 pm

Quote from: Mr.B on August 30, 2015, 09:19:02 pm

Quote from: ez24 on August 30, 2015, 09:10:55 pm

Has anyone built a breadboard circuit...

Jay_Diddy_B

Check this thread...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/)

Thanks I remember it now.  I see someone just replied with "bookmark".  I have been trying to figure how to track posts, I see this is a way.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on August 31, 2015, 12:47:34 am

Quote from: ez24 on August 30, 2015, 10:45:50 pm

I see someone just replied with "bookmark".

 ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 31, 2015, 03:23:59 am

The other problem I see with the Batteriser (and it's already been mentioned by a few users) is the very real possibility that these things will get stuck inside consumer products. Take the Apple keyboard for example, it might slide in OK, but who knows what is inside that battery compartment. All it would take is the Batteriser to shift slightly and catch on something inside and you're buggered. Good way to void product warranties by having to pull the thing apart just to get that damn batteries out.

Quote from: 5ky on August 30, 2015, 09:01:48 pm

And I know they know EXACTLY what they're doing because they suspiciously know what words to say, and what words NOT to say in their "demo" videos.  Sneaky f'n snakes.

Yep! It's as much about what you don't say as it is that's actually said. Enough to fool the average person perhaps. Typical salesmen. Unfortunately they don't know their own product very well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SundayProgrammer on August 31, 2015, 06:34:14 am

Quote from: 5ky on August 30, 2015, 08:46:01 pm

Have you guys seen the batteriser video where they demo the batteriser in an apple bluetooth keyboard?  It's ridiculous and REALLY misleading to the average joe.

clip...

The first time I see the actual product running. So... it seems that it thin enough to fit into the Mac keyboard. I hope they can get batteries out from one too...
But still... IMHO Batteriser is a "battery level indicator disabler"... which also uses energy of a battery to operate.

Axel.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on August 31, 2015, 07:29:32 am

What will be funny is the large number of devices that will actually lose ~10% battery life using batteriser.  We all know there are tons of devices that already dry up almost everything in the batteries they use, so wrapping a ~90% efficient boost converter around the batteries means you're adding loss to the system, and nothing else.  Quite contrary to the 80% B.S. they claim

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 31, 2015, 07:59:50 am

Can anyone see the comments below? They got deleted?

(http://i.imgur.com/FwMznX3s.png) (http://i.imgur.com/FwMznX3.png)

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 31, 2015, 08:48:18 am

Quote from: ez24 on August 30, 2015, 09:10:55 pm

Has anyone built a breadboard circuit to do what the Batteriser is suppose to do and chart the graphs under different loads?

There's not much point.  If we pick a DC booster device that's close to Batteriser's parameters (boost 0.8-1.5V to 1.5V, up to 1A) then all the graphs are already plotted in the datasheet. We can draw enough conclusions from the datasheet to know that Batteriser doesn't work.

eg. This one will boost 0.8V to 1.5V: http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps61000.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps61000.pdf)

Also: Batteriser is working with really strict size requirements. Their inductor has to be tiny and this will affect the results a lot. Data produced from a breadboard circuit using that chip wouldn't be accurate.

OTOH if anybody's bored and has the parts then why not...? It might be interesting to see the effects of reduced inductor size and extrapolate down to a 1mm cube like Batteriser uses.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 31, 2015, 08:52:10 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 31, 2015, 08:48:18 am

This one will boost 0.8V to 1.5V: http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps61000.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps61000.pdf)

I see another potential issue in that datasheet: Power-on isn't instant.

I it takes a few milliseconds (eg. 8ms for that device) for the output to ramp up.

How will this affect things like keyboards which expect instant power every time you press a key? Will they get brown-outs?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on August 31, 2015, 10:55:25 am

Maybe the batteriser is in a always on state which causes even faster draining....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 31, 2015, 11:38:46 am

Quote from: meeder on August 31, 2015, 10:55:25 am

Maybe the batteriser is in a always on state which causes even faster draining....

It seems likely that it is. There's no way to shut down a booster that has to work everywhere.

eg. They show it in remote controls and Apple keyboards, devices which only consume microamps when they're idle. If it doesn't shut down in those devices then it probably has no shut down capability.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on August 31, 2015, 11:40:17 am

Which dramatically increases the risk of leaking batteries due to deep discharge in low power devices in which normal batteries can be used for years.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 31, 2015, 12:16:31 pm

Who care about leaking battery? They will go into the trash so.


Oh wait! the device around the battery is not going to the trash too?
Crap!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on August 31, 2015, 04:09:36 pm

Quote from: firewalker on August 31, 2015, 07:59:50 am

Can anyone see the comments below? They got deleted?

[urlhttp://i.imgur.com/FwMznX3.png](http://i.imgur.com/FwMznX3s.png)[/url]

Alexander.

Looks like a strange G+/Youtube feature. There were 5 answers to an answer from the "fan" to my answer, and I can still see them in the G+ notification, but it is not visible in the Youtube video: http://i.imgur.com/DuUiLm1.png (http://i.imgur.com/DuUiLm1.png)
I don't see your comments either in the Youtube video. My guess is that they can delete the comments for their Youtube videos, but if you started a comment, it is still visible in your G+ account. So don't waste time commenting their videos.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on August 31, 2015, 05:06:12 pm

Another crap article from a respected source: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html)

EEAtlanta in the comments (Batteroo themselves):

"Dave Jones graduated from Dramatic Arts School. The inventors of Batteriser are professors of electrical engineering. Regarding your post, Batteroo released a video demonstrating why you cannot use a power supply box to "debunk" the Batteriser. Batteries and constant power supply boxes behave very differently:
(... stupid vid here... Don't want to spam the forum with the YouTube page)

That Youtube page also has a video of the Batteriser tested on flashlights. Check it out if interested.
Thanks"

Dramatic Arts School, why did you put that on your LinkedIn  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on August 31, 2015, 06:35:07 pm

Just out of curiosity I checked my Garmin GPSmap 62st to see at which voltage it cuts out.
I tested it with Eneloop NiMH batteries with the unit battery type set to NiMH.
The unit stopped working completely at 1.90V so that is 0.95V per cell.

I haven't tested it with alkalines but that is the next test.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 31, 2015, 07:31:46 pm

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on August 31, 2015, 05:06:12 pm

Dramatic Arts School, why did you put that on your LinkedIn  :-DD

Why does it matter? It's only a matter of time when/if they release the Batteriser that Roohparvar and his "professors" will have egg on their face when it comes to light that Dave Jones from Dramatic Arts School was correct all along (well, derrr...). Whether they care to admit it or not, their customers certainly will.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 31, 2015, 07:34:22 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on August 31, 2015, 07:31:46 pm

Why does it matter? It's only a matter of time when/if they release the Batteriser that Roohparvar and his "professors" will have egg on their face when it comes to light that Dave Jones from Dramatic Arts School was correct all along (well, derrr...).

Publicize it! Tell the world a dramatic arts student was smarter than Mr IQ.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on August 31, 2015, 08:14:26 pm

Quote from: meeder on August 31, 2015, 06:35:07 pm

Just out of curiosity I checked my Garmin GPSmap 62st to see at which voltage it cuts out.
I tested it with Eneloop NiMH batteries with the unit battery type set to NiMH.
The unit stopped working completely at 1.90V so that is 0.95V per cell.

I haven't tested it with alkalines but that is the next test.

Small update from the unit running with Alkaline batteries with the device set to Alkaline.
The message that the battery voltage was to low for backlight and sound was displayed at 2.27V. With NiMH batteries you will never get this message, probably because they can deliver higher currents.
The backlight doesn't turn off completely at that point, it just dims to about 50% brightness and the sound does turn off completely.
After the brightness is reduced the voltage got back up to 2.35V caused by the lower current draw.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on August 31, 2015, 08:42:54 pm

Quote from: meeder on August 31, 2015, 08:14:26 pm

With NiMH batteries you will never get this message, probably because they can deliver higher currents.

If I remember correctly part of the message is that you should use rechargable batteries if you don't want this to happen. It would be a bit weird to show this using NiMH...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: RFZ on August 31, 2015, 08:59:31 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on August 24, 2015, 07:27:42 am

I'm pretty sure he just said that you don't take the area under the graph in a battery discharge plot, you have to take the whole area, above and below the graph? :/

Because he is right, regarding a constant current load. Your capacity is current*time, which is the integral over the rectangle he showed. It might not be what matters in most cases in reality, but it is totally correct.
Maybe because of that Dave often says mAh is not the best way to give the capacity of a battery, use mWh.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on August 31, 2015, 09:05:32 pm

Quote from: meeder on August 31, 2015, 08:14:26 pm

Small update from the unit running with Alkaline batteries with the device set to Alkaline.
The message that the battery voltage was to low for backlight and sound was displayed at 2.27V. With NiMH batteries you will never get this message, probably because they can deliver higher currents.
The backlight doesn't turn off completely at that point, it just dims to about 50% brightness and the sound does turn off completely.
After the brightness is reduced the voltage got back up to 2.35V caused by the lower current draw.

What I don't get is this, and this could be a great example of how Batteriser could drastically REDUCE longevity (and not just because of the boost converter inefficiency).  In alkaline mode, the device "prematurely" dims the screen (even at 1/2 to 3/4 remaining battery on the on-screen-display).  Actually probably a prudent step to take to extend battery life.  Now we all suspect that Batteroo simply concluded the non-Batteriser test at this point and called the product "dead" (which it probably was not).

But what about the Batteriser case?  With the artificially high terminal voltage provided by the Batteriser, the unit should never dim the screen, and one would then expect the device to burn through the battery even faster than without the Batteriser.  You can see from their plots that when the screen is at full brightness, it pulls about 150-160mA and the dim screen pulls about 110-120mA.  If we assume they are pulling about 1600mAh total out of the battery (with the Batteriser), it looks like you'd get 1.5 hours @ 160mA (=240mAh) leaving another 11 or so hours @ 120mA with the dim screen.  So total of 13.5 hours without the Batteriser, 10 hours with.

Okay, I realize this is way oversimplifying and assumes constant current (which it's not) and eventually the device WILL legitimately reach the cut-out voltage, probably before the full 13.5 hours.  But still:  in the real world application of this device, it detects a "failing" battery and takes steps to extend battery life (different devices may slow down the CPU, etc.)  The Batteriser will completely defeat these measures and likely end up having unintended consequences of shortening overall life just for those reasons alone!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 31, 2015, 10:51:27 pm

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on August 31, 2015, 05:06:12 pm

Dramatic Arts School, why did you put that on your LinkedIn  :-DD

Because it's, you know, funny.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 31, 2015, 10:55:00 pm

Quote from: lpickup on August 31, 2015, 09:05:32 pm

What I don't get is this, and this could be a great example of how Batteriser could drastically REDUCE longevity (and not just because of the boost converter inefficiency).  In alkaline mode, the device "prematurely" dims the screen (even at 1/2 to 3/4 remaining battery on the on-screen-display).  Actually probably a prudent step to take to extend battery life.  Now we all suspect that Batteroo simply concluded the non-Batteriser test at this point and called the product "dead" (which it probably was not).

Can someone please just get one of these things and bust this right open?
It's easy, just time how long it works. If it's longer than the 2hrs they got when the screen dimmed and they implied it stopped working, then their video is embarrassingly wrong (which seems to be the case).
It's a Garmin Approach G3

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on August 31, 2015, 11:27:44 pm

This might be worth trying since the batteriser hasn't been released yet.

Jay_Diddy_B put together a battery model which predicts discharge characteristics pretty well. Why doesn't someone take that model and implement it using a programmable power supply to see how long a device lasts. Then, using that model, power an "average" boost converter and see how long the product lasts. I think that will be a good relative comparison between a battery and a battery+batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mayo2017 on August 31, 2015, 11:31:37 pm

Curious to see if any of Batteriser's little quips here are true.
Note: This wasn't even on Batteriser's channel. They really, really don't like me. :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 01, 2015, 01:20:30 am

That's what makes this so interesting... You have a couple of brothers with apparently impressive CV's who have made billions for other companies  (FlexPower, Quantum, etc) using their incredibly high IQs, yet can't seem to put together a demo unit to send to some independent labs, even though they have a product launch in less than 3 months. They spout mostly confusing ideas that are prime for debunking in their videos...

So is their campaign and videos all a cover to raise publicity? Have they really come up with an ingenius idea since  not even Apple engineers knew how to make their iPhone charger smaller? Or have their careers fallen and they are looking for a rebound? Is it a purposeful sham?

This story is not just about electronics, although there is a lot to learn from the entire discussion... I'm really curious how this will play out, and the people behind it. This could make a good movie, it is getting dramatic! How do you reconcile those "massive" resumes and patents from the Roohparvar brothers with the farce that is Batteriser thus far? Or is this like the cold fusion labs, all deluded or missing something that should be obvious?

Why risk their "reputation" and teaching position? Has anyone done a real background investigation? I doubt that they are not the same people behind the patents and employed by who they claimed. Unless someone did an identity switch, which seems highly improbable given the attention given to this campaign. Then one has to keep asking, is Batteriser real and will it even be produced for a November release?

All this mystery and speculation and nail-biting suspense would go away if we just had 1 Batteriser to test. Much could be put to rest. I guess we just have to wait until November. They surely want to hit the shelves before Christmas peak shopping since these would be huge for battery-operated toys!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 01, 2015, 01:28:59 am

Quote from: edy on September 01, 2015, 01:20:30 am

Or have their careers fallen and they are looking for a rebound?

Just the "next big thing".
Bob started Batteroo the same month he got fired as President and CEO of DigitalOptics corp.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 01, 2015, 01:29:08 am

Quote from: edy on September 01, 2015, 01:20:30 am

That's what makes this so interesting... You have a couple of brothers with apparently impressive CV's who have made billions for other companies  (FlexPower, Quantum, etc) using their incredibly high IQs, yet can't seem to put together a demo unit to send to some independent labs, even though they have a product launch in less than 3 months. They spout mostly confusing ideas that are prime for debunking in their videos...

So is their campaign and videos all a cover to raise publicity? Have they really come up with an ingenius idea since  not even Apple engineers knew how to make their iPhone charger smaller? Or have their careers fallen and they are looking for a rebound? Is it a purposeful sham?

This story is not just about electronics, although there is a lot to learn from the entire discussion... I'm really curious how this will play out, and the people behind it. This could make a good movie, it is getting dramatic! How do you reconcile those "massive" resumes and patents from the Roohparvar brothers with the farce that is Batteriser thus far?

Perhaps they've just taken credit for someone else's homework in the past?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mayo2017 on September 01, 2015, 01:51:54 am

It's not uncommon for executive bigwigs to have their name on a patent somewhere, even if they aren't the designer. "Hundreds of patents" my ass.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 01, 2015, 01:54:20 am

Looks like we now have a third Roohparvar working for them, now replying in the campaign comments.
https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=182102138 (https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=182102138)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 01, 2015, 02:06:31 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 01, 2015, 01:54:20 am

Looks like we now have a third Roohparvar working for them, now replying in the campaign comments.
https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=182102138 (https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=182102138)

Can't view the link without an account. Screenshot?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 01, 2015, 02:19:17 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 31, 2015, 10:55:00 pm

Quote from: lpickup on August 31, 2015, 09:05:32 pm

What I don't get is this, and this could be a great example of how Batteriser could drastically REDUCE longevity (and not just because of the boost converter inefficiency).  In alkaline mode, the device "prematurely" dims the screen (even at 1/2 to 3/4 remaining battery on the on-screen-display).  Actually probably a prudent step to take to extend battery life.  Now we all suspect that Batteroo simply concluded the non-Batteriser test at this point and called the product "dead" (which it probably was not).

Can someone please just get one of these things and bust this right open?
It's easy, just time how long it works. If it's longer than the 2hrs they got when the screen dimmed and they implied it stopped working, then their video is embarrassingly wrong (which seems to be the case).
It's a Garmin Approach G3

Wednesday  :popcorn:

(http://i.imgur.com/G1qKE8Ph.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 01, 2015, 03:12:16 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 31, 2015, 10:55:00 pm

Quote from: lpickup on August 31, 2015, 09:05:32 pm

What I don't get is this, and this could be a great example of how Batteriser could drastically REDUCE longevity (and not just because of the boost converter inefficiency).  In alkaline mode, the device "prematurely" dims the screen (even at 1/2 to 3/4 remaining battery on the on-screen-display).  Actually probably a prudent step to take to extend battery life.  Now we all suspect that Batteroo simply concluded the non-Batteriser test at this point and called the product "dead" (which it probably was not).

Can someone please just get one of these things and bust this right open?
It's easy, just time how long it works. If it's longer than the 2hrs they got when the screen dimmed and they implied it stopped working, then their video is embarrassingly wrong (which seems to be the case).
It's a Garmin Approach G3

Working on it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 01, 2015, 03:16:01 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 01, 2015, 03:12:16 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 31, 2015, 10:55:00 pm

Quote from: lpickup on August 31, 2015, 09:05:32 pm

What I don't get is this, and this could be a great example of how Batteriser could drastically REDUCE longevity (and not just because of the boost converter inefficiency).  In alkaline mode, the device "prematurely" dims the screen (even at 1/2 to 3/4 remaining battery on the on-screen-display).  Actually probably a prudent step to take to extend battery life.  Now we all suspect that Batteroo simply concluded the non-Batteriser test at this point and called the product "dead" (which it probably was not).

Can someone please just get one of these things and bust this right open?
It's easy, just time how long it works. If it's longer than the 2hrs they got when the screen dimmed and they implied it stopped working, then their video is embarrassingly wrong (which seems to be the case).
It's a Garmin Approach G3

Working on it.

Doh, did I just buy one for no reason? lol

I guess my boss likes to golf...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on September 01, 2015, 03:27:21 am

Please do post a clear picture of the screen showing the battery message, so it can be used alongside the screenshot of the Batteriser video.  Someone in either this thread or the other one found the string in the firmware and the message seems to match, but a picture would dispel any doubt.

Quote from: Mayo2017 on August 31, 2015, 11:31:37 pm

Curious to see if any of Batteriser's little quips here are true.
Note: This wasn't even on Batteriser's channel. They really, really don't like me. :popcorn:

That's "Brad Jones", I'd guess. Using their not-so-unofficial account to make posts like that is really disturbing. :wtf:

Nevertheless, the level of faith he displays in his idols (the Roohparvars) is also surprising.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 01, 2015, 03:28:19 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 01, 2015, 03:16:01 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 01, 2015, 03:12:16 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 31, 2015, 10:55:00 pm

Quote from: lpickup on August 31, 2015, 09:05:32 pm

What I don't get is this, and this could be a great example of how Batteriser could drastically REDUCE longevity (and not just because of the boost converter inefficiency).  In alkaline mode, the device "prematurely" dims the screen (even at 1/2 to 3/4 remaining battery on the on-screen-display).  Actually probably a prudent step to take to extend battery life.  Now we all suspect that Batteroo simply concluded the non-Batteriser test at this point and called the product "dead" (which it probably was not).

Can someone please just get one of these things and bust this right open?
It's easy, just time how long it works. If it's longer than the 2hrs they got when the screen dimmed and they implied it stopped working, then their video is embarrassingly wrong (which seems to be the case).
It's a Garmin Approach G3

Working on it.

Doh, did I just buy one for no reason? lol

I guess my boss likes to golf...

No. Test it now. I'm bidding on one on eBay.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 01, 2015, 04:15:35 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 01, 2015, 03:12:16 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 31, 2015, 10:55:00 pm

Quote from: lpickup on August 31, 2015, 09:05:32 pm

What I don't get is this, and this could be a great example of how Batteriser could drastically REDUCE longevity (and not just because of the boost converter inefficiency).  In alkaline mode, the device "prematurely" dims the screen (even at 1/2 to 3/4 remaining battery on the on-screen-display).  Actually probably a prudent step to take to extend battery life.  Now we all suspect that Batteroo simply concluded the non-Batteriser test at this point and called the product "dead" (which it probably was not).

Can someone please just get one of these things and bust this right open?
It's easy, just time how long it works. If it's longer than the 2hrs they got when the screen dimmed and they implied it stopped working, then their video is embarrassingly wrong (which seems to be the case).
It's a Garmin Approach G3

Working on it.

The other problem with this firmware "feature" is that apparently it will force the backlight off with Alkalines, so that won't be a fair comparison with the Batteriser in terms of total operational time.
Still will give a useful measure though.
This might be able to be got around by forcing another battery type.
Or what I would do is perhaps measure the current raw with backlight on and off to see how much the backlight takes, and when the message pops up and the backlight turns off, switch on a dummy load to take the equivalent backlight current. Keep that load in place until the GPS dies. Then you'll have a true operational time comparison with the Batteriser.

Of course, just proving the GPS continues to work after the message pops up proves Batteroo's video to be wrong. Because they aren't taking into account a firmware feature of the product that is designed to protect the battery life on Alkaline batteries.
In fact, I fail to see why they needed the backlight robotic finger to begin with, can't the GPS simply stay switched on like you'd normally use it?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 01, 2015, 04:48:48 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 01, 2015, 04:15:35 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 01, 2015, 03:12:16 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 31, 2015, 10:55:00 pm

Quote from: lpickup on August 31, 2015, 09:05:32 pm

What I don't get is this, and this could be a great example of how Batteriser could drastically REDUCE longevity (and not just because of the boost converter inefficiency).  In alkaline mode, the device "prematurely" dims the screen (even at 1/2 to 3/4 remaining battery on the on-screen-display).  Actually probably a prudent step to take to extend battery life.  Now we all suspect that Batteroo simply concluded the non-Batteriser test at this point and called the product "dead" (which it probably was not).

Can someone please just get one of these things and bust this right open?
It's easy, just time how long it works. If it's longer than the 2hrs they got when the screen dimmed and they implied it stopped working, then their video is embarrassingly wrong (which seems to be the case).
It's a Garmin Approach G3

Working on it.

The other problem with this firmware "feature" is that apparently it will force the backlight off with Alkalines, so that won't be a fair comparison with the Batteriser in terms of total operational time.
Still will give a useful measure though.
This might be able to be got around by forcing another battery type.
Or what I would do is perhaps measure the current raw with backlight on and off to see how much the backlight takes, and when the message pops up and the backlight turns off, switch on a dummy load to take the equivalent backlight current. Keep that load in place until the GPS dies. Then you'll have a true operational time comparison with the Batteriser.

Of course, just proving the GPS continues to work after the message pops up proves Batteroo's video to be wrong. Because they aren't taking into account a firmware feature of the product that is designed to protect the battery life on Alkaline batteries.
In fact, I fail to see why they needed the backlight robotic finger to begin with, can't the GPS simply stay switched on like you'd normally use it?

I have a non-golfing garmin gps that's similar size to that one, screen size and all, and the backlight just turns off after a few minutes to save energy, but the unit stays on indefinitely.  If you touch a button or the screen, the backlight comes back on.  The unit I have is incredible in broad daylight--the color screen is fully visible in direct sunlight without the backlight on.  I'm not sure how they do it but it's awesome.  A set of AA batteries lasted me a few full-day float trips with it "on" the entire time, and that's with it baking in the 95 degree sun all day.  I'm REALLY skeptical of their claims in that video.

On Wednesday, we shall see how much they were twisting the truth.

EDIT: typos

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 01, 2015, 05:37:46 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 01, 2015, 04:15:35 am

In fact, I fail to see why they needed the backlight robotic finger to begin with, can't the GPS simply stay switched on like you'd normally use it?

With the unit I tested, setting the backlight to never dim was simple.

Continuously tapping the screen will up the power consumption slightly by working the cpu harder, but only enough to affect the runtime by maybe an hour or so. It's really a silly test since no one uses a GPS like that.

I did like that the finger actuator was simply a relay that they cracked open.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 01, 2015, 05:56:47 am

They did it to make their test setup look more scientific and controlled. Still, the easiest test would have been to buy 2 devices, open up brand new batteries for each and whack one set in as-is and the other set with Batterisers, and set up a time-lapse camera taking shots every minute until both are dead. Make the photos into a video and post it. Simple and easy proof.

Then repeat with 2 monkeys, 2 radios, 2 flashlights.... very simple actually. Stuff for a middle-school science fair project. No need to understand the "magic" going on in the Batteriser, just measure the device performance over time (speed of movement, light intensity, screen contrast, reception/volume).

Give some Batterisers to a bunch of 6th graders and they will have no problem doing it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 01, 2015, 06:35:34 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 01, 2015, 05:37:46 am

Continuously tapping the screen will up the power consumption slightly by working the cpu harder, but only enough to affect the runtime by maybe an hour or so. It's really a silly test since no one uses a GPS like that.

That's the thing, why do that? Why not just use the GPS as you are supposed to?  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 01, 2015, 06:37:40 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 01, 2015, 04:48:48 am

On Wednesday, we shall see how much they were twisting the truth.

Please make a quick video of the test!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 01, 2015, 07:00:49 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 01, 2015, 06:37:40 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 01, 2015, 04:48:48 am

On Wednesday, we shall see how much they were twisting the truth.

Please make a quick video of the test!

I will start testing as soon as I'm home on Wednesday and will hopefully have the video up that night.  I'll then come post the link here

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on September 01, 2015, 08:07:52 am

What's funny now is if you search YouTube for "batteriser" (I tried it in a private browsing window so it wouldn't be influenced by my subscriptions), the first video is Dave's debunking, then another debunking, then Dave's monkey video and THEN finally their own explanation video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 01, 2015, 08:27:53 am

Quote from: kalleboo on September 01, 2015, 08:07:52 am

What's funny now is if you search YouTube for "batteriser" (I tried it in a private browsing window so it wouldn't be influenced by my subscriptions), the first video is Dave's debunking, then another debunking, then Dave's monkey video and THEN finally their own explanation video.

The system works :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 01, 2015, 08:46:19 am

Quote from: kalleboo on September 01, 2015, 08:07:52 am

What's funny now is if you search YouTube for "batteriser" (I tried it in a private browsing window so it wouldn't be influenced by my subscriptions), the first video is Dave's debunking, then another debunking, then Dave's monkey video and THEN finally their own explanation video.

Try it on a browser that isn't full of your personal history....see the difference?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 01, 2015, 10:51:18 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 31, 2015, 11:38:46 am

Quote from: meeder on August 31, 2015, 10:55:25 am

Maybe the batteriser is in a always on state which causes even faster draining....

It seems likely that it is. There's no way to shut down a booster that has to work everywhere.

eg. They show it in remote controls and Apple keyboards, devices which only consume microamps when they're idle. If it doesn't shut down in those devices then it probably has no shut down capability.

Yes, I also mentioned this before. There's no way for "the batteriser concept" to know if some device is idle or not, and keeps on "working", draining the battery 800% more than without "the batteriser concept"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on September 01, 2015, 11:05:38 am

Quote from: Galenbo on September 01, 2015, 10:51:18 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 31, 2015, 11:38:46 am

Quote from: meeder on August 31, 2015, 10:55:25 am

Maybe the batteriser is in a always on state which causes even faster draining....

It seems likely that it is. There's no way to shut down a booster that has to work everywhere.

eg. They show it in remote controls and Apple keyboards, devices which only consume microamps when they're idle. If it doesn't shut down in those devices then it probably has no shut down capability.

Yes, I also mentioned this before. There's no way for "the batteriser concept" to know if some device is idle or not, and keeps on "working", draining the battery 800% more than without "the batteriser concept"

Actually, I would argue that would be possible... Have a comparator for the incoming battery voltage, and only engage the boost converter when the battery voltage is below say 1.2V or so (that doesn't seem to be what they're doing since the Apple keyboard was reporting "100%" battery level of course, but I'm just saying it should be possible)...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on September 01, 2015, 11:46:28 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 01, 2015, 06:35:34 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 01, 2015, 05:37:46 am

Continuously tapping the screen will up the power consumption slightly by working the cpu harder, but only enough to affect the runtime by maybe an hour or so. It's really a silly test since no one uses a GPS like that.

That's the thing, why do that? Why not just use the GPS as you are supposed to?  :-//

Well, one reason would be to speed up the test.  Almost all reviews of the G3 I said claimed it lasted 2-3 round of golf (WITHOUT the Batteriser!) meaning that the non-Batteriser test would have taken about 15 hours, and of course the Batteiser, because it could extend the life of the GPS unit 5X as they showed in the video would take 75 hours!  We could make a similar critique that they are testing this thing indoors where it obviously is not getting a GPS signal and in preview mode.  But actually I'm okay with all of those "non-realistic" aspects of the test, as long as it's apples to apples with the Batteriser.

But I think we all know the real reason is that it gave them a convenient point to call the product "dead" (when the screen is FORCED dim) at a suitable time that backed up their claim of tapping into 80% of energy remaining.

We don't have to actually test it.  Batteroo have done it for us already.  At 30:33 in the full-length video they show us the oscilloscope trace "at the last cycle" when the device "failed" (see picture which is Chris pointing to the spike that triggered the screen dim message, or in his words exactly:  "The point that the device failed is right here").  Do you see the current draw drop to 0?  Do you see the voltage recover to its unloaded voltage?  No, the device clearly continues to operate.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=168746)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dagga on September 01, 2015, 12:07:52 pm

My first post, but I've been following this debacle for a few weeks. I'm not a batteroo shill, I promise.

I noticed this ad on the eevblog front page today. I believe Batteroo's ad budget may be more well spent somewhere else :-DD
(http://i.imgur.com/M5tiySo.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 01, 2015, 12:18:33 pm

We were speaking about potato energy on another thread, Dave do you think they should also make a potatorizer?

I think that caracterise a potato energy should be done.

That would be really helpful for powering Probe!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on September 01, 2015, 12:37:38 pm

Quote

We don't have to actually test it.  Batteroo have done it for us already.  At 30:33 in the full-length video they show us the oscilloscope trace "at the last cycle" when the device "failed" (see picture which is Chris pointing to the spike that triggered the screen dim message, or in his words exactly:  "The point that the device failed is right here").  Do you see the current draw drop to 0?  Do you see the voltage recover to its unloaded voltage?  No, the device clearly continues to operate

I did not watch that video,  but, it does raise an important question about their red/green current vs timing chart.

The red one was for w/o batteriser and it showed an about 30 minutes interval at the end of the discharge curve, then the current dropped to zero. This time interval was presumably due to the reduced backlight mode kicked in.

The question is whether  anyone knows if this discharge termination was due to low battery auto shutoff or due to maually switching off the GPS?  I always thought they implied the former. But, it could just be the chart being intentionally misleading. Since they decided to call the starting point of the low backlight mode as the failing point, they may have just turned off the GPS after a short time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 01, 2015, 12:47:03 pm

Quote from: dagga on September 01, 2015, 12:07:52 pm

My first post, but I've been following this debacle for a few weeks. I'm not a batteroo shill, I promise.

I noticed this ad on the eevblog front page today. I believe Batteroo's ad budget may be more well spent somewhere else :-DD
(http://i.imgur.com/M5tiySo.png)

The ad is likely customized to your browsing history and profile. If you have been following Batteriser for a while, you are part of their target market and now your browser will show ads for it.

Try browsing a bunch of feminine beauty product sites, kids toy sites and nutritional and weight-loss sites for a few days and see how all the ads you see will change. You can also go in to your Google account settings and customize ad preferences as well.

Remember these 3rd party ad banners are not served up by Dave or any other content site directly. They are just "place-holders" on sites, and the ads just get fetched and inserted there by independent sites that monitor your behaviour and interests and try to feed you ads that the advertiser chose for you because they believe you would be most likely to click it.

If your neighbor had a toothache and had been looking for a dentist for the past week, EEVBLOG would be showing him local dentists!  :-DD

The best way to deal with the Batteriser ads is CLICK THEM wherever you see them. That depletes the Batteriser ad budget, but also the clicks on EEVBLOG site generate income for Dave to keep EEVBLOG going.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on September 01, 2015, 12:53:43 pm

Quote from: onlooker on September 01, 2015, 12:37:38 pm

The red one was for w/o batteriser and it showed an about 30 minutes interval at the end of the discharge curve, then the current dropped to zero. This time interval was presumably due to the reduced backlight mode kicked in.

The question is whether  anyone knows if this discharge termination was due to low battery auto shutoff or due to maually switching off the GPS?  I always thought they implied the former. But, it could just be the chart being intentionally misleading.

Yeah, I have wondered the same thing.  To me it seemed like the screen dim was the cause of the first drop, and that the unit completely shut off (on its own) for the final drop.  But I have listened very carefully to what the narrator says in that video and I changed my mind--to me it became plausible that in fact they considered the test over when the screen dimmed and not when the device shut off.

After the full length video where it clearly shows the device is still operating past the point that they say, and I quote, "the device failed", that sealed it for me.  They definitely cheated on this.  I suspect that in the original test they let the device run for a short while (20-30 minutes) with the dim screen/error message and then just manually shut it off.  I don't know whether they intentionally let it run with a dim screen to throw off skeptics, or if they simply left the room and came back and saw it like that and shut down the experiment, but nonetheless I have practically no doubt that they prematurely terminated the experiment before the device actually died.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 01, 2015, 12:58:39 pm

I've got mine too!  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 01, 2015, 01:22:29 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 01, 2015, 12:58:39 pm

I've got mine too!  :-DD

Nice... Now if we all click the Batteriser ads that show up on EEVBlog, not only do we deplete Batteroo's ad budget but also earn Dave some cash! Perfect!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 01, 2015, 02:11:50 pm

Quote from: janekm on September 01, 2015, 11:05:38 am

Quote from: Galenbo on September 01, 2015, 10:51:18 am

if some device is idle or not, ...

Actually, I would argue that would be possible... Have a comparator for the incoming battery voltage, and only engage the boost converter when the battery voltage is below say 1.2V or so...

In case the device is off:

That adds the consumption of a constantly working comparator
+
losses/efficiency of that comparator's direct/boost switch
+
all the continuous extra loss when the battery voltage is below your 1.2V.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 01, 2015, 02:44:59 pm

In fact I suspect that this device would much more interesting if it just work as a pass-through when the battery voltage is more than 1.1V or 1.0V, then activate with the battery goes to that voltage to maintain the voltage to 1.1 or 1.0V. (or a user specified switch voltage)

So that it's only used at the end of the battery life and may really give a few more time, not so long for sure and would not trick the battery indicator thinking that the battery is full.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on September 01, 2015, 02:55:27 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 01, 2015, 08:46:19 am

Try it on a browser that isn't full of your personal history....see the difference?

It was right there in my post that you quoted... "I tried it in a private browsing window so it wouldn't be influenced". "Private browsing" is a feature of all modern browsers where it blocks all access to your cookies/javascript databases/history/etc.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 01, 2015, 03:07:59 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 01, 2015, 02:44:59 pm

In fact I suspect that this device would much more interesting if it just work as a pass-through when the battery voltage is more than 1.1V or 1.0V, then activate with the battery goes to that voltage to maintain the voltage to 1.1 or 1.0V. (or a user specified switch voltage)

Same problems, causing significantly lower autonomy, remain.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 01, 2015, 03:09:09 pm

Quote from: edy on September 01, 2015, 01:22:29 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 01, 2015, 12:58:39 pm

I've got mine too!  :-DD

Nice... Now if we all click the Batteriser ads that show up on EEVBlog, not only do we deplete Batteroo's ad budget but also earn Dave some cash! Perfect!

Is a click enough or are there trackers that keep record of the time you spend on that batteroo site?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 01, 2015, 05:28:36 pm

Quote from: janekm on September 01, 2015, 11:05:38 am

Actually, I would argue that would be possible... Have a comparator for the incoming battery voltage, and only engage the boost converter when the battery voltage is below say 1.2V or so (that doesn't seem to be what they're doing since the Apple keyboard was reporting "100%" battery level of course, but I'm just saying it should be possible)...

Even a tiny bit of extra circuitry like a comparator could easily halve the battery life in a remote control or Apple keyboard.

eg. Here's a special low power comparator: http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/sbos300b/sbos300b.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/sbos300b/sbos300b.pdf)

It has a 2.8uA Quiescent Current. It doesn't sound like much but it's probably about the same as those devices.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 01, 2015, 06:03:03 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/B8op84r.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 01, 2015, 08:21:23 pm

On the one hand Batteriser protects babies from chemical burns by not discharging batteries "to an unsafe level".

On the other hand they don't recommend it for rechargeable batteries because it over-discharges them (down to 0.5V!)  :-//


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=168797;image)

PS: Yes, the babies and chemical burns thing is real.  "Safety!" is their latest sales message.  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 01, 2015, 09:57:08 pm

Quote from: dagga on September 01, 2015, 12:07:52 pm

My first post, but I've been following this debacle for a few weeks. I'm not a batteroo shill, I promise.
I noticed this ad on the eevblog front page today. I believe Batteroo's ad budget may be more well spent somewhere else :-DD
(http://i.imgur.com/M5tiySo.png)

Damn, that's funny!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 01, 2015, 10:02:46 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 01, 2015, 02:44:59 pm

In fact I suspect that this device would much more interesting if it just work as a pass-through when the battery voltage is more than 1.1V or 1.0V, then activate with the battery goes to that voltage to maintain the voltage to 1.1 or 1.0V. (or a user specified switch voltage)

It's only quite recently in the scheme of the development that Batteroo appear to know that battery voltage cutout is typically 1.1V under load.
No mention of it in their patents at all, it's 1.3V or 1.4V in there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 01, 2015, 10:07:24 pm

Quote from: edy on September 01, 2015, 12:47:03 pm

The best way to deal with the Batteriser ads is CLICK THEM wherever you see them. That depletes the Batteriser ad budget, but also the clicks on EEVBLOG site generate income for Dave to keep EEVBLOG going.

Please don't do that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 01, 2015, 10:15:02 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 01, 2015, 10:07:24 pm

Quote from: edy on September 01, 2015, 12:47:03 pm

The best way to deal with the Batteriser ads is CLICK THEM wherever you see them. That depletes the Batteriser ad budget, but also the clicks on EEVBLOG site generate income for Dave to keep EEVBLOG going.

Please don't do that.

Ok Dave, I won't click.... But I surely was tempted. Look what showed up when I opened EEVBlog on my web browser as well (see attached photo).  :-DD

I think we are all starting to get the Batteriser ad campaign, probably ranking very high.  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 01, 2015, 10:24:49 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 01, 2015, 10:02:46 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 01, 2015, 02:44:59 pm

In fact I suspect that this device would much more interesting if it just work as a pass-through when the battery voltage is more than 1.1V or 1.0V, then activate with the battery goes to that voltage to maintain the voltage to 1.1 or 1.0V. (or a user specified switch voltage)

It's only quite recently in the scheme of the development that Batteroo appear to know that battery voltage cutout is typically 1.1V under load.
No mention of it in their patents at all, it's 1.3V or 1.4V in there.

Anyway, as I put my idea here, it left some traces, so they won't be able to patent this!  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 02, 2015, 01:06:20 am

I'll also post this here, as many people only subscribe to this thread:

Now this is going too far:
Batteriser (I don't care if it's their BS claimed "fan page") are accusing me of, well, read it for yourself:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=168825;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 02, 2015, 01:07:46 am

Someone is also buying dislikes on my Batteriser videos, and also those of at least one other Batteriser video:
Truly pathetic.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=168823;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 02, 2015, 01:14:22 am

Wow that really is pathetic.  As if their BS product claims weren't bad enough, their marketing guy is working extra hard to totally ruin their reputation.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 02, 2015, 01:16:57 am

Wow, it's getting ugly! How can we support you Dave, do we need an army of EEVBlog members to start liking these videos to skew the numbers back? Is there an "abuse" department or complaint email to YouTube to investigate where these Dislikes are coming from (like a bunch of fake YouTube accounts created for the sole purpose of spamming or affecting ratings that can be bought... Like sock puppet accounts? ).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 02, 2015, 01:20:09 am

Quote from: edy on September 02, 2015, 01:16:57 am

:palm:
Wow, it's getting ugly! How can we support you Dave, do we need an army of EEVBlog members to start liking these videos to skew the numbers back?

Nope, don't do anything, they are doing a spectacular job of ruining their reputation all by themselves  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on September 02, 2015, 01:25:01 am

Their whole play, front and back, now looks more like a gangsters' movie. Maybe, this can really be a good material for a gangsters' movie.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 02, 2015, 01:44:20 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 02, 2015, 01:20:09 am

Quote from: edy on September 02, 2015, 01:16:57 am

:palm:
Wow, it's getting ugly! How can we support you Dave, do we need an army of EEVBlog members to start liking these videos to skew the numbers back?

Nope, don't do anything, they are doing a spectacular job of ruining their reputation all by themselves  :palm:

You're right. I agree. They want to drag things down to their level. The best play here is to simply ignore this type of behavior and take the high road. Continue to ask for the science. The other thing is we don't know really who is behind these posts, so it could all be a ruse. The fact of the matter is, Batteriser has still not shown a single working prototype demonstration which will shut us all up if they actually have something that works like they advertise. And Amazon will have it November? Hmmm....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on September 02, 2015, 01:53:05 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 02, 2015, 01:07:46 am

Someone is also buying dislikes on my Batteriser videos, and also those of at least one other Batteriser video:
Truly pathetic.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=168823;image)

These bitches want war? They damn sure got one now...  :-DD

The question is why are most of those dislikes coming from 'Nam?  :wtf:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on September 02, 2015, 02:06:30 am

The youtube fanpage is starting to piss me off. I know it's one guy who's somehow related to the batteriser "inventors", but he's spewing crap left and right. While most of us from the forums are asking for science and data, all he's saying in response is "PhD...blaa blaa blaa...PhD.... we're smarter". This is a kid who's so damn insecure that he needs to boast about someone's credentials. Last time I checked, some of the most brilliant analog designers had no degree nor finished their degree, let alone a damn PhD... Some examples are from LT, Dobby and the late Jim, and yet they're regarded as some of the most brilliant engineers in analog.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 02, 2015, 02:11:07 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 02, 2015, 01:20:09 am

Nope, don't do anything, they are doing a spectacular job of ruining their reputation all by themselves  :palm:

Sorry, couldn't help myself replying to that comment.  His replies are hilarious though - what a troll! :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 02, 2015, 02:22:34 am

Quote

The question is why are most of those dislikes coming from 'Nam? 

Notice that only 13 people viewed the video yet 132 disliked it.  :-//   So they dislike it without even watching it? Venezuela is the same.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 02, 2015, 02:25:48 am

Quote from: edy on September 02, 2015, 02:22:34 am

Notice that only 13 people viewed the video yet 132 disliked it.  :-//   So they dislike it without even watching it? Venezuela is the same.

Because they don't play the video enough for Youtube to register a view.
When you pay a company to buy dislikes (or likes) they farm it out to people who open the link and then hit like/dislike and then close it and they collect their commission.
Youtube is very fussy about what constitutes a view, so they have complex algorithms for that. Not so (or nearly as much) for thumbs.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 02, 2015, 02:31:24 am

Very interesting.  Looks like I got 269 "dislikes" from Vietnam as well.  Those cheap bastards are really trying hard to bury our videos, but it's not working  :-DD

I was going to suggest that maybe the "professor" (term I use very loosely with that guy) was giving out extra credit to his students if they went and gave thumbs downs to videos calling batteriser a scam... until I saw what country the thumbs downs came from 

(http://i.imgur.com/l0tEVLah.png)

EDIT: typo

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 02, 2015, 02:38:50 am

How do you get a "-1" Like? Wouldn't that just be a dislike?  :palm: :-DD  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 02, 2015, 02:42:17 am

Quote from: edy on September 02, 2015, 02:38:50 am

How do you get a "-1" Like? Wouldn't that just be a dislike?  :palm: :-DD  :-//

Quantum thumbs, man.  We'll call it superposition  :scared:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on September 02, 2015, 02:44:25 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 02, 2015, 02:42:17 am

Quote from: edy on September 02, 2015, 02:38:50 am

How do you get a "-1" Like? Wouldn't that just be a dislike?  :palm: :-DD  :-//

Quantum thumbs, man.  We'll call it superposition  :scared:

Sorry. Not an LTI system. Can't use superposition.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 02, 2015, 02:46:37 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 02, 2015, 02:42:17 am

Quote from: edy on September 02, 2015, 02:38:50 am

How do you get a "-1" Like? Wouldn't that just be a dislike?  :palm: :-DD  :-//

Quantum thumbs, man.  We'll call it superposition  :scared:

Next we'll see a sqrt(-1) likes.  O0

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 02, 2015, 02:54:38 am

Just discovered that even though the comments on Youtube are moderated, you can see the full unmoderated discussion with this moron via Google Plus
e.g. https://plus.google.com/u/0/106095496873834311761/posts/9zCvkcWPjhu

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 02, 2015, 03:03:36 am

Thanks.. that Google Plus page shows the whole comment thread. The last one is particularly revealing (a college student who is friends with the inventor's son and hoping to be paid at some point for his efforts):

Quote

Batteriser Batteroo - 1 minute ago
+c4757p They have a PR team, they handle IGG and Social Media. I'm a college student and friends with the inventor's son and the people who made the "fan videos". I reached out to Dave Jones several times to test and review the Batteriser with no reply. Once I saw YouTube has become a big joke and 99% trolls, also I found out which software EEVblog uses to manipulate social media. I realized he is clearly being paid for these videos, and also just getting his ratings up. This whole EEVblog vs Batteroo has become a circus, and I just decided to join in on the fun and shit talking.
If you want to see their professional marketing and PR team, follow their Facebook and IGG pages. I'm an idiot, but I know the Batteroo team was right from the start and decided to set this channel up to get their videos on YouTube (they only posted on Facebook) and most people search YouTube. I was hoping I can ask them for a check at the end of the campaign if it was successful. Fingers crossed! LOL

I highly doubt he ever tried to send Dave a Batteriser to test. Such lies.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pickle9000 on September 02, 2015, 03:10:31 am

Quote from: Kean on September 02, 2015, 02:54:38 am

Just discovered that even though the comments on Youtube are moderated, you can see the full unmoderated discussion with this moron via Google Plus
e.g. https://plus.google.com/u/0/106095496873834311761/posts/9zCvkcWPjhu

That is one ugly conversation.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on September 02, 2015, 03:16:16 am

Quote from: tree on September 02, 2015, 02:06:30 am

The youtube fanpage is starting to piss me off. I know it's one guy who's somehow related to the batteriser "inventors", but he's spewing crap left and right. While most of us from the forums are asking for science and data, all he's saying in response is "PhD...blaa blaa blaa...PhD.... we're smarter". This is a kid who's so damn insecure that he needs to boast about someone's credentials. Last time I checked, some of the most brilliant analog designers had no degree nor finished their degree, let alone a damn PhD... Some examples are from LT, Dobby and the late Jim, and yet they're regarded as some of the most brilliant engineers in analog.

Its not some dude in a basement. Its one of those PR social media digital reputation companies that do all of this shit. Next thing you know Dave will get unexpected ATO visit after anonymous tip and other shit (at least he is not in US so no SWATting).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muxr on September 02, 2015, 04:33:38 am

Quote from: Rasz on September 02, 2015, 03:16:16 am

Quote from: tree on September 02, 2015, 02:06:30 am

The youtube fanpage is starting to piss me off. I know it's one guy who's somehow related to the batteriser "inventors", but he's spewing crap left and right. While most of us from the forums are asking for science and data, all he's saying in response is "PhD...blaa blaa blaa...PhD.... we're smarter". This is a kid who's so damn insecure that he needs to boast about someone's credentials. Last time I checked, some of the most brilliant analog designers had no degree nor finished their degree, let alone a damn PhD... Some examples are from LT, Dobby and the late Jim, and yet they're regarded as some of the most brilliant engineers in analog.

Its not some dude in a basement. Its one of those PR social media digital reputation companies that do all of this shit. Next thing you know Dave will get unexpected ATO visit after anonymous tip and other shit (at least he is not in US so no SWATting).

They are spending their VC/Kickstarter money to silence the internet exposing their little scam. Further proof they are a shady outfit. Who knows how many unsuspecting non technical people they've sold on this magical creation of theirs.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on September 02, 2015, 04:34:38 am

Quote from: Rasz on September 02, 2015, 03:16:16 am

Quote from: tree on September 02, 2015, 02:06:30 am

The youtube fanpage is starting to piss me off. I know it's one guy who's somehow related to the batteriser "inventors", but he's spewing crap left and right. While most of us from the forums are asking for science and data, all he's saying in response is "PhD...blaa blaa blaa...PhD.... we're smarter". This is a kid who's so damn insecure that he needs to boast about someone's credentials. Last time I checked, some of the most brilliant analog designers had no degree nor finished their degree, let alone a damn PhD... Some examples are from LT, Dobby and the late Jim, and yet they're regarded as some of the most brilliant engineers in analog.

Its not some dude in a basement. Its one of those PR social media digital reputation companies that do all of this shit. Next thing you know Dave will get unexpected ATO visit after anonymous tip and other shit (at least he is not in US so no SWATting).

I think it was confirmed that it's some guy who's related to the Roohparvar brothers. But that's irrelevant at this point. Even if it's a social media firm, it's still rather annoying how unprofessional they're (he) behaving.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 02, 2015, 05:33:01 am

Bob, Frankie,

You're officially scraping rock bottom. Enjoy your sojourn in the sewer. I wanted to respect and like you as people despite our differences over your claims, but you just lost that completely.

Good luck with your retail gambit. Can't wait to see what happens when your kid's buddy threatens Amazon's staff. Will he be inviting all the one-star reviewers to Kennesaw County for an ass whooping in the B-school parking lot?  Do you really think these types of intimidation tactics work?!  Or did the threats and slander tactics already backfire spectacularly?

=========

Folks, I wouldn't get too wound up about this. The Batteroo guys are clearly desperate at this point. I'm beginning to wonder if SK Telecom hasn't cut them loose and just not made the announcement yet. I can't even imagine a mainstream retail channel picking these characters up at this juncture. The IGG campaign is totally pointless. It's a financial black hole at $300k and change.  I'm actually wondering how much of that campaign was actually astroturfed at this point given the current behavior.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 02, 2015, 05:48:48 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU08zwBH-wo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU08zwBH-wo)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SundayProgrammer on September 02, 2015, 06:10:21 am

Talking about energy.... what an amount of wasted energy many people have spent to this debate...
After reading Google+ comments, I would take one step back and wait for to get one device to test. After that it is possible to continue discussion - based on facts - again.

Axel.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on September 02, 2015, 06:11:23 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 02, 2015, 05:48:48 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU08zwBH-wo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU08zwBH-wo)

Now you've done it Jones...
You had to go there.
This kid will now commit internet suicide from built up rage.....because you didn't insult him and actually feel bad for the ccompany.
Way to keep it professional and civilized Dave.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pickle9000 on September 02, 2015, 06:15:59 am

@dave

Very professional.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 02, 2015, 06:22:27 am

Quote from: pickle9000 on September 02, 2015, 06:15:59 am

@dave
Very professional.

Thanks, I tried.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 02, 2015, 06:26:37 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 02, 2015, 05:48:48 am

...video...

What thought process even goes through these idiot's heads?

"Yeah, we could buy a load of dislikes on his videos, that'll fix him! Solve all out problems!!"   :palm:


PS: Looks like there's still people out there who haven't heard of the Streisand Effect. This will seriously backfire.

The mainstream press isn't much interested in a bunch of nerds in forums discussing whether Batteriser works or not. A youtube flamewar, OTOH? That's newsworthy!   :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 02, 2015, 06:31:09 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=168862;image)

New claims: 

UL Verification. I hereby request to see the report and documentation of the test setup and procedures. Which UL Lab did the test?

FCC Certification. Curiously enough, the FCC database shows no record of Batteroo, nor your device. Care to make a revised statement or retraction, Bob?

Oh, and regarding the "6X" improvement in run time?  On a very similar model, I managed to get 6.5X by inserting fresh alkalines, turning everything to full tilt boogie and walking away. No Batteriser required.

Are you going to keeping making these bizarre claims?  It is time to come to Jesus.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=168865;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 02, 2015, 06:53:13 am

Has anyone looked at the Batteriser Google+ page?
Almost all of the 82 people in their "circle" are very attractive young female.
I'm in the wrong business it seems.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=168869;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 02, 2015, 06:57:11 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 02, 2015, 06:31:09 am

FCC Certification. Curiously enough, the FCC database shows no record of Batteroo, nor your device. Care to make a revised statement or retraction, Bob?

They only admitted last week (Bob himself) that it didn't need FCC certification.
Then the next day they had a crack team working on it, and obviously the FCC had it all done and dusted by the weekend, so it clearly takes time to make it's way to the website, give it a few days ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 02, 2015, 07:25:48 am

Dave: wow yes we are all wrong, that's some incredible circles!

But it's like for audiophiles products, with a friend we always complain how much rich we would be if we design such product instead of trying to be honest...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 02, 2015, 07:36:37 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 02, 2015, 06:31:09 am

FCC Certification. Curiously enough, the FCC database shows no record of Batteroo, nor your device. Care to make a revised statement or retraction, Bob?

They only put their certification team together last weekend.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on September 02, 2015, 07:38:05 am

Do someone knew where this town "home" is?
I think I need to make my next vacation there  :-DD

Battero & Batteriser have one good thing.
Its the best way to start a day reading what these wacky people have done during night.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 02, 2015, 07:44:41 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 02, 2015, 06:53:13 am

Has anyone looked at the Batteriser Google+ page?
Almost all of the 82 people in their "circle" are very attractive young female.
I'm in the wrong business it seems.

Weirdly enough you can put those photos into google image search and they all turn out to be celebs!

Who knew that rich/famous women were creating profiles online just so they can be friends with Batteroo?

(Or maybe they're created by the same people who are downvoting your videos...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 02, 2015, 08:49:50 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 02, 2015, 06:31:09 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=168862;image)

Next they will accuse Dave of developing a battery sleeve with booster that doesn't work and performs worse than without.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 02, 2015, 08:54:35 am

The thing I like about the payed dislikes is that now every healthy ousider like a cook, gardener and roofer clearly sees who's the scammer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MikeW on September 02, 2015, 09:00:33 am

Quote from: Galenbo on September 02, 2015, 08:54:35 am

The thing I like about the payed dislikes is that now every healthy ousider like a cook, gardener and roofer clearly sees who's the scammer.

In my opinion it's more common for the average person to not know anything about paid dislikes and just see the dislikes and think 'Well this guy must be wrong'.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 02, 2015, 09:15:57 am

I honestly didn't think Batteroo, Roohparvar and the other people associated with this failure known as Batteriser could stoop to a new level of low... but it appears as though they have.

Yes, their claims are dubious which have been debunked and disproven through plain, simple science and mathematics. But now according to their comments, they are just attacking anyone who disagrees, which is not a great way to start a business. They have also been caught out blatantly lying and fabricating statements which they attempt to pass off as fact.

If they weren't scammers before, they certainly are now! I would trust a car salesman before I trust anything with the name Batteroo or Batteriser. The train wreak that is 'The Batteriser' has started its collision course (and we'll be there to witness it, popcorn in hand).  :popcorn:

Thankfully over 80%* of people trust the science and actual facts presented by Dave Jones and the EEVblog... or was that 800%...?


* This figure is based on a small hand-picked and made-up sample size which it totally organic and 99.9% fat-free!
It has not been independently or scientifically tested (just like the Batteriser hasn't).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on September 02, 2015, 09:18:47 am

Quote from: MikeW on September 02, 2015, 09:00:33 am

Quote from: Galenbo on September 02, 2015, 08:54:35 am

The thing I like about the payed dislikes is that now every healthy ousider like a cook, gardener and roofer clearly sees who's the scammer.

In my opinion it's more common for the average person to not know anything about paid dislikes and just see the dislikes and think 'Well this guy must be wrong'.

tbh i think most people on youtube just ignore the like/dislike buttons

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on September 02, 2015, 10:15:28 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 02, 2015, 06:31:09 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=168862;image)

Funny how this YT-batteriser guy seems to think that FCC-testing is about the batterylife expanding capabilities of the batteriser..

And also:
From "We don't need FCC" to "We got approval" in just one week?

Seriously: I don't have any experience with testing for the US market, but is actually possible?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 02, 2015, 10:28:10 am

Quote from: PeterL on September 02, 2015, 10:15:28 am

Funny how this YT-batteriser guy seems to think that FCC-testing is about the batterylife expanding capabilities of the batteriser..

And also:
From "We don't need FCC" to "We got approval" in just one week?

Seriously: I don't have any experience with testing for the US market, but is actually possible?

Typical "try and shift the negative focus onto someone else" strategy. It's a pity for "Batteriser Batteroo" or the "Batteriser Fan TEAM" that the average reader and consumer is smarter than he is/they are.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on September 02, 2015, 10:35:02 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 02, 2015, 06:53:13 am

Has anyone looked at the Batteriser Google+ page?
Almost all of the 82 people in their "circle" are very attractive young female.

Its all included in the scammy SEO/reputation manipulation package^^^^oh Im sorry, Its called 'Growth Hacking' !!1
I seem to remember you talking about flood of those scammers when you ran your KS, same deal.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on September 02, 2015, 10:36:50 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 02, 2015, 06:31:09 am

UL Verification. I hereby request to see the report and documentation of the test setup and procedures. Which UL Lab did the test?

This is huge news that UL is no longer just doing safety and regulatory testing, but now even doing performance testing!  I wonder if they had to custom build the little finger thingy as well...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 02, 2015, 10:46:05 am

Just thought I'd check out the last days comments on the IGG campaign, and came across a couple of comments that seemed like shills.
Even their registered names seem awfully suspicious, and of course this is the only campaign they've backed or commented on.
And what do you know... they all backed around the same time for $1.  It appears they forgot to click the private option until the last one.  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on September 02, 2015, 10:57:38 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=168862;image)

I'm no legal expert but aren't some of these statements almost paramount to slanderous and defamatory.

Title: Re: Why is it so?
Post by: EEVblog on September 02, 2015, 11:23:08 am

Quote from: merlinb on September 02, 2015, 11:21:14 am

In "EEVblog #789 - Batteriser Monkey BUSTED!", where does the black and white clip at 6:05 come from?

Professor Julius Sumner Miller

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 02, 2015, 11:24:44 am

Quote from: Kean on September 02, 2015, 10:46:05 am

Just thought I'd check out the last days comments on the IGG campaign, and came across a couple of comments that seemed like shills.
Even their registered names seem awfully suspicious, and of course this is the only campaign they've backed or commented on.
And what do you know... they all backed around the same time for $1.  It appears they forgot to click the private option until the last one.  :-DD

It just gets more comical by the day!

Title: Re: Why is it so?
Post by: Kean on September 02, 2015, 11:26:01 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 02, 2015, 11:23:08 am

Quote from: merlinb on September 02, 2015, 11:21:14 am

In "EEVblog #789 - Batteriser Monkey BUSTED!", where does the black and white clip at 6:05 come from?

Professor Julius Sumner Miller

Such as: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIfxV7uNZXQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIfxV7uNZXQ)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on September 02, 2015, 11:33:03 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 02, 2015, 10:57:38 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=168862;image)

I'm no legal expert but aren't some of these statements almost paramount to slanderous and defamatory.

Just image having a friend of your family, using your name, and talking like that..

No serious company in the world would ever tolerate something like that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 02, 2015, 11:42:15 am

Quote from: PeterL on September 02, 2015, 11:33:03 am

No serious company in the world would ever tolerate something like that.

And it's not just the language and attitude either. There have been threats of physical violence against a fellow 13yo blogger, documented on this forum.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ljwinkler on September 02, 2015, 11:54:57 am

I have found a similar KS campaign from last year: BatteryVampire: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2ndlifetech/batteryvampire (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2ndlifetech/batteryvampire)

At least this guy cancelled it without burying himself...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 02, 2015, 11:55:14 am

Dave, now you've got the monkey, pretty please do a 2 minute, non technical video debunking their claims once and for all.

Two new AA cells in a holder, wired directly up Probes's arse, run him until he stops. Maybe film it in time lapse with a clock in the background.
Then connect a 3v boost converter (which I'm sure you can knock up easily enough) between the batteries and Probes, and see how much longer, if at all, he runs for.

Then home for tea and medals!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 02, 2015, 12:07:41 pm

Quote from: ljwinkler on September 02, 2015, 11:54:57 am

I have found a similar KS campaign from last year: BatteryVampire: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2ndlifetech/batteryvampire (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2ndlifetech/batteryvampire)

At least this guy cancelled it without burying himself...

Discussed here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/batteryvampire/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/batteryvampire/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SteveyG on September 02, 2015, 12:08:49 pm

Quote from: Delta on September 02, 2015, 11:55:14 am

Dave, now you've got the monkey, pretty please do a 2 minute, non technical video debunking their claims once and for all.

Two new AA cells in a holder, wired directly up Probes's arse, run him until he stops. Maybe film it in time lapse with a clock in the background.
Then connect a 3v boost converter (which I'm sure you can knock up easily enough) between the batteries and Probes, and see how much longer, if at all, he runs for.

Then home for tea and medals!

I was thinking the same thing. They're likely using the Texas Instruments TPS61200 DC-DC converter - so buy a TPS61200EVM-179 Evaluation Module and do that exact experiment.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on September 02, 2015, 12:19:11 pm

Quote from: SteveyG on September 02, 2015, 12:08:49 pm

Quote from: Delta on September 02, 2015, 11:55:14 am

Dave, now you've got the monkey, pretty please do a 2 minute, non technical video debunking their claims once and for all.

Two new AA cells in a holder, wired directly up Probes's arse, run him until he stops. Maybe film it in time lapse with a clock in the background.
Then connect a 3v boost converter (which I'm sure you can knock up easily enough) between the batteries and Probes, and see how much longer, if at all, he runs for.

Then home for tea and medals!

I was thinking the same thing. They're likely using the Texas Instruments TPS61200 DC-DC converter - so buy a TPS61200EVM-179 Evaluation Module and do that exact experiment.

It is useless. They will come up with some stupid excuse like using their custom designed asic that can do some magical stuff to get 800% efficiency.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SundayProgrammer on September 02, 2015, 12:27:29 pm

Quote from: bktemp on September 02, 2015, 12:19:11 pm

Quote from: SteveyG on September 02, 2015, 12:08:49 pm

Quote from: Delta on September 02, 2015, 11:55:14 am

Dave, now you've got the monkey, pretty please do a 2 minute, non technical video debunking their claims once and for all.

Two new AA cells in a holder, wired directly up Probes's arse, run him until he stops. Maybe film it in time lapse with a clock in the background.
Then connect a 3v boost converter (which I'm sure you can knock up easily enough) between the batteries and Probes, and see how much longer, if at all, he runs for.

Then home for tea and medals!

I was thinking the same thing. They're likely using the Texas Instruments TPS61200 DC-DC converter - so buy a TPS61200EVM-179 Evaluation Module and do that exact experiment.

It is useless. They will come up with some stupid excuse like using their custom designed asic that can do some magical stuff to get 800% efficiency.

Exactly. From academic point of view you can do what ever you like, but to continue this debate on professional level you need to have an actual product to test and review. And when I say professional level... hmm.. this discussion between Eevblog people and Batteriser fan boys is way below that. Unfortunately.

Axel.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on September 02, 2015, 12:38:39 pm

The fan pictures shown above made me think that it is possible that the batteriser is trying to penetrate into toy battery market segment, namely adult-oriented toys. And it is quite possible that those toys exhibit too high cut-off voltages. For some reason they ended up using the monkey as an example of a toy instead of a vibrator.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 02, 2015, 12:40:35 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 02, 2015, 11:24:44 am

Quote from: Kean on September 02, 2015, 10:46:05 am

Just thought I'd check out the last days comments on the IGG campaign, and came across a couple of comments that seemed like shills.
Even their registered names seem awfully suspicious, and of course this is the only campaign they've backed or commented on.
And what do you know... they all backed around the same time for $1.  It appears they forgot to click the private option until the last one.  :-DD

It just gets more comical by the day!

Funny thing is that the $1 backers are normally the ones slamming the creators for being scammers (e.g. Ritot)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: RupertGo on September 02, 2015, 01:11:03 pm

In the past, I've reported on numerous companies who had too-good-to-be-true 'products' that seemed to break the laws of physics but were not actually available for testing. Almost got enough for a book by now. once I work out how not to be sued. (I've been threatened with that, and UK libel laws make it a most credible deterrent.)

Some of them had pseudonymous online supporters - there's usually just one per company - who had no admitted connection to the company but conducted remarkably shrill, aggressive and intemperate online campaigns against anyone who criticised the company, regardless of how careful that criticism was. One in particular went as far as leaving me voicemails, subscribing me to large number of mailing lists, and posting stuff of a personal (and inaccurate) nature that proved remarkably counter-productive.

All you can do is what Dave's doing now: stick to the facts, keep on asking the questions that can't (or won't) be answered, and make sure that anyone who is interested in investing in or supporting the company because they think the technology has potential can find the credible criticism and inconvenient facts that indicates otherwise. More than that, is up to them.

Shrill shills give themselves away every time they post. Campaigns to denigrate or shut down online criticism leave fingerprints over everything they touch. You can't prevent this, but you can patiently and in good faith point them out - and then get on with the rest of the stuff you do. In Dave's case, that's assembling 800+ entertaining, informative (and occasionally trying!) videos that have absolutely no agenda except the one he stands by.

Look at the opposition, laugh, sigh and move on...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 02, 2015, 01:17:13 pm

It seem that they start a new angle for their product:

Quote

I just read that article Ali posted. I had no idea how dangerous batteries can be. As a parent, I don’t care if a Batteriser can make my kid’s toy last twice as long, or eight times as long, or whatever. But I do care that a Batteriser can keep my kid safe! I think parents really need to know about this. http://www.consumer.org.my/index.php/safety/household/224-batteries-can-leak-overheat-and-rupture-causing-chemical-burns-to-your-kids (http://www.consumer.org.my/index.php/safety/household/224-batteries-can-leak-overheat-and-rupture-causing-chemical-burns-to-your-kids)

18 hour ago[/quote]

Quote

@Pierobosco, no not really. I’m naïve I guess. I thought battery companies made batteries safe for all of us to use. Like if the batteries were really that dangerous then they wouldn’t make them. Yeah, I know, LOL.

17 hours ago

Cf this $1 account: https://www.indiegogo.com/individuals/11983934/activities (https://www.indiegogo.com/individuals/11983934/activities)

"Battery safety" the batteriser make battery safer!

They should make a liporiser to make Li-Po battery safer, I think that LiPo (and all Lithium battery) is much more dangerous than alcaline or any Nickel based rechargeable battery.

And all these comments feels unnatural for me

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: neotesla on September 02, 2015, 01:49:23 pm

Quote from: SundayProgrammer on September 02, 2015, 12:27:29 pm

this discussion between Eevblog people and Batteriser fan boys is way below that. Unfortunately.

Axel.

So you'd reckon both sides are equally to blame for that?

This is not the first time that you're leaving me with the impression that you're implying some fault on Dave's (and his supporters') side. At least be clear about it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on September 02, 2015, 01:54:35 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 01, 2015, 01:54:20 am

Looks like we now have a third Roohparvar working for them, now replying in the campaign comments.
https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=182102138 (https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=182102138)

He's also telling that he was involved in making the Nature Man fan video, and he became part of their indiegogo team 4 days ago. That channel doesn't seem to be that independent, does it?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=168904)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on September 02, 2015, 02:03:31 pm

Quote from: neotesla on September 02, 2015, 01:49:23 pm

Quote from: SundayProgrammer on September 02, 2015, 12:27:29 pm

this discussion between Eevblog people and Batteriser fan boys is way below that. Unfortunately.

Axel.

So you'd reckon both sides are equally to blame for that?

This is not the first time that you're leaving me with the impression that you're implying some fault on Dave's (and his supporters') side. At least be clear about it.

I think he's allowed to have that opinion over here (if he has it :) ). Nothing wrong with that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 02, 2015, 02:06:50 pm

The Batteriser Batteroo Google plus page is hilarious!  :-DD



Look at the attached image! Arianna Grande has changed her name apparently, and there is a guy named Barbara. The whole thing is a joke of monumental proportions! I am thinking whoever made these pages is not working for Batteroo, but against them and blackmailing them to stop before ruining things even further!  :-DD  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on September 02, 2015, 02:11:59 pm

And Irma and Debora are twin sisters, just like in that fan video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on September 02, 2015, 02:22:39 pm

Quote from: edy on September 02, 2015, 02:06:50 pm

The Batteriser Batteroo Google plus page is hilarious!  :-DD



Look at the attached image! Arianna Grande has changed her name apparently, and there is a guy named Barbara. The whole thing is a joke of monumental proportions! I am thinking whoever made these pages is not working for Batteroo, but against them and blackmailing them to stop before ruining things even further!  :-DD  :palm:

if you dig deeper, many of those accounts are in each others circles too

many are linked to:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/115510254665929876630/posts
and
https://plus.google.com/u/0/+UsedTruckSalesBrooklyn/posts

edit:

just tried calling 'Holistic Clients', no answer and the mailbox is full

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on September 02, 2015, 02:45:09 pm

Quote from: neotesla on September 02, 2015, 01:49:23 pm

Quote from: SundayProgrammer on September 02, 2015, 12:27:29 pm

this discussion between Eevblog people and Batteriser fan boys is way below that. Unfortunately.

Axel.

So you'd reckon both sides are equally to blame for that?

This is not the first time that you're leaving me with the impression that you're implying some fault on Dave's (and his supporters') side. At least be clear about it.

Well if he's not clear, I will be...some of the anti-Batteriser comments are very childish and sink to name calling.  This is not Dave's fault.  In fact, he has asked us to keep civil about it (or just ignore it altogether).  I don't know if the comments come directly from people in this community, but since they reference items posted here within the past 24 hours, I think there's a better than average chance they are at least on these forums.  And I will say that it's not everyone, in fact it's a fairly small minority.  But you know that they will latch on to those few posts and use them as justification that they are being "harassed" by the EEVBlog community.

Folks, we have no need to sink to their level.  We've got science, physics and reality on our side.  And frankly it hurts our credibility to sink to their level.

Here is a recent example:

Quote

+Batteriser Batteroo HAHA, you are so full of shit it is amazing. You are the ones paying for the dislikes of EEVblog. Batteriser is just a big scam!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on September 02, 2015, 02:47:38 pm

and a little more digging and spotted this company in common with many of those G+ accounts: Bembry Business Design Studio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5ut1MqZz5w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5ut1MqZz5w)

who provide....
http://bembrybusiness.multiscreensite.com/social-media (http://bembrybusiness.multiscreensite.com/social-media)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: fahraynk on September 02, 2015, 02:52:06 pm

Since we have seen now that products work with a lower battery voltage, cant we design a working one ?
Basically... it would have to lower the voltage of the battery to slow the current so that products work on their minimum voltage rating. This should cause the products to work for less current.

Like a resonant capacitor/inductor circuit somehow designed to lower current into the product with magnetic flux change....

like if we create our own wire loop that the product uses instead of the battery, and shoot that wire loop with flux from an inductor coil, and when you compress the battery terminals then our original resonant circuit gets closed and activated, causing the inductor and capacitor to go in and out with our new chosen voltage level.

...hmm but that would cause it to be a AC voltage wouldn't it... Would also need a filter or diode or something... ugh. any thoughts ?

oh wait you could probably just use a voltage regulator for a LOWER voltage. like a 1.1 volt regulator ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on September 02, 2015, 02:52:53 pm

Looks like Batteroo have a new spokesman...and now the claim is that we can get 800 TIMES the lifetime!

https://youtu.be/Yx5VE7xDRq4 (https://youtu.be/Yx5VE7xDRq4)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on September 02, 2015, 03:05:59 pm

The amount of :palm: and :wtf: in this whole story are reaching insane levels...

I'm hoping that somehow, it was all just a clever social experiment to see how far people could believe unsubstantiated claims.

Quote from: lpickup on September 02, 2015, 02:45:09 pm

I don't know if the comments come directly from people in this community, but since they reference items posted here within the past 24 hours, I think there's a better than average chance they are at least on these forums.

Given that there's nearly 150 guests viewing this thread at the moment, I'm guessing they were never regulars in the community, but were just linked here from somewhere else.

Quote

Folks, we have no need to sink to their level.  We've got science, physics and reality on our side.  And frankly it hurts our credibility to sink to their level.

I agree. Everyone posting anti-Batteriser comments should stick to the facts.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 02, 2015, 03:11:46 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on September 02, 2015, 02:47:38 pm

and a little more digging and spotted this company in common with many of those G+ accounts: Bembry Business Design Studio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5ut1MqZz5w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5ut1MqZz5w)

who provide....
http://bembrybusiness.multiscreensite.com/social-media (http://bembrybusiness.multiscreensite.com/social-media)

Doh!
I'm not a native english speaker so that could explain, but his accent is just horrible, and the presentation is just awfull  :wtf: :palm:
That's can't be a serious company, no way :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on September 02, 2015, 03:17:36 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 02, 2015, 03:11:46 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on September 02, 2015, 02:47:38 pm

and a little more digging and spotted this company in common with many of those G+ accounts: Bembry Business Design Studio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5ut1MqZz5w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5ut1MqZz5w)

who provide....
http://bembrybusiness.multiscreensite.com/social-media (http://bembrybusiness.multiscreensite.com/social-media)

Doh!
I'm not a native english speaker so that could explain, but his accent is just horrible, and the presentation is just awfull  :wtf: :palm:
That's can't be a serious company, no way :-//

out of the other G+ users following Batteriser that account seems to be the most genuine and is selling subscribers, followers etc

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on September 02, 2015, 03:20:06 pm

Quote from: amyk on September 02, 2015, 03:05:59 pm

Quote from: lpickup on September 02, 2015, 02:45:09 pm

I don't know if the comments come directly from people in this community, but since they reference items posted here within the past 24 hours, I think there's a better than average chance they are at least on these forums.

Given that there's nearly 150 guests viewing this thread at the moment, I'm guessing they were never regulars in the community, but were just linked here from somewhere else.

Fair enough, but here is another example that implies he is the very definition of a regular:

Quote

You lot are the scum bags! ive been watching Daves videos from his first ever vid and he is the most genuine bloke going. now i understand a lot more now knowing you lot are American! BTW how much did it cost to buy all them dislikes!! this company is a F**K joke.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 02, 2015, 03:41:34 pm

Quote from: amyk on September 02, 2015, 03:05:59 pm

I agree. Everyone posting anti-Batteriser comments should stick to the facts.

That first sounds like a good idea, but what exactly are the facts?
-there is no device
-there is no prototype
-there is no schematic
-there are no compliant reproducable test results
-there is no manual, no file
-there are no indepently tested results

There' s only a guy full of lies, about his idea, about the numbers, about the units, about graphs, about his plans, claims, regulation, safety ...
Everytime the EEVblog community comes with the proof of something, they just invent another lie.

I think it's good Dave discourages insults to them, but everyone has another kind of argueing.
Especially after seeing how that Batteroo guy starts the insults himself....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 02, 2015, 03:48:44 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on September 02, 2015, 03:41:34 pm

Everytime the EEVblog community comes with the proof of something, they just invent another lie.

But something we can they are is entertaining, we all hold our breath for the next outcome of the Butter-riser video/comment/trick :)
They make us laugh a lot, that's a good point no?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 02, 2015, 03:49:16 pm

Quote from: lpickup on September 02, 2015, 02:52:53 pm

Looks like Batteroo have a new spokesman...and now the claim is that we can get 800 TIMES the lifetime!

https://youtu.be/Yx5VE7xDRq4 (https://youtu.be/Yx5VE7xDRq4)

Please someone download that video before it disappears. It is a real comedy.  :-DD Never mind the Batteriser, it is just the way Mr. Lesko does his intro and the interview, it was very entertaining!

Now back to the Batteriser facts, I agree to hold judgement until we see what they come up with in less than 3 months. Keeping it professional and scientific. This story will continue to unfold in all sorts of bizarre ways, even without any comments or input from anyone from the EEVBlog community. So just sit back and watch, and bring some popcorn.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SundayProgrammer on September 02, 2015, 04:01:27 pm

Quote from: neotesla on September 02, 2015, 01:49:23 pm

Quote from: SundayProgrammer on September 02, 2015, 12:27:29 pm

this discussion between Eevblog people and Batteriser fan boys is way below that. Unfortunately.
Axel.

So you'd reckon both sides are equally to blame for that?
This is not the first time that you're leaving me with the impression that you're implying some fault on Dave's (and his supporters') side. At least be clear about it.

lpickup summarizes pretty well what I meant. Also when Dave calls someone as "clown" it is throwing gasoline on the fire.... as an example.

I have followed Dave for many years. Not from the very beginning but almost. I also have been regular supporter as long that I can't even remember. When I see debate like this growing and growing each day I thought that I have right to express my opinion.

And to be absolutely clear: even if Batteriser crew has made this personal, even if they provoke all the time, even if their comments keep on sinking... we don't need to. At least for me it would be more satisfying to watch professional responses to all of their claims and in the end: test/review the actual product and bust it completely.

If you say that no one here isn't provoked by Batteriser people... I rest my case.

Axel.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 02, 2015, 04:03:29 pm

A little bit about Matthew Lesko:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/lesko_grants.html (http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/lesko_grants.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lincoln on September 02, 2015, 04:20:41 pm

Dude. Google lists their office right around the corner form me... I'm tempted to see what the deal is.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on September 02, 2015, 04:52:07 pm

What's the big deal with the office location, both Apple and Google operated out of a garage until they found investors.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 02, 2015, 05:33:26 pm

Quote from: Bud on September 02, 2015, 04:52:07 pm

What's the big deal with the office location, both Apple and Google operated out of a garage until they found investors.

Sure... but Apple and Google both had working products.

When you don't...? It's all offices, suits and slick marketing videos.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 02, 2015, 05:41:46 pm

Dave just did a video about "buying likes/dislikes" on YouTube. That was an eye-opener for me. I didn't realize there are companies that do this kind of thing! Which led me to think about the same being true of Kickstarter and IndieGogo campaigns.

So here is a "thought".... Follow me along with this one:

PAYING TO KICKSTART A KICKSTARTER/GOGO AN INDIEGOGO

Someone decides to start up a crowd-funding campaign. The psychology of it is that if people see other people throwing money at something, they will be more likely to do it.

So the project creator pays a company to "pay" into a campaign. I'm not sure how this is done, whether you can use the same credit card to pay multiple times into a system or whether this can be circumvented or not.

Bottom line is, such a "crowd-funding backer" (CFB) company could have a bunch of fake users, multiple credit cards linked to those accounts, and pay into a campaign. The project creator would give the CFB company perhaps $105,000.... they would get back $100,000 from them, so net cost to CFB would be $5,000. Of course, IndieGogo or Kickstarter would also keep a percentage (maybe another 5% or $5,000 from the $100,000). This would leave project creator with $95,000 back.

So they effectively would have paid $105,000 to get back $95,000 and CFB would keep $5000 and crowd-funding site another $5000. Net cost for this service would be $10,000. What does this $10,000 buy you?

Well, having your campaign backed to the tune of $100,000 along the way may also be enough psychological motivation to entice perhaps another $200,000 out of other real people to join the campaign. So the project creator has lost $10,000 in order to potentially gain $200,000.

It reminds me of seminars where overly-enthusiastic people are "planted" in the audience (the "shill") to help encourage unsuspecting people to part with their money.

Now I know it is a bit of a "far-fetched" idea. But I didn't know things like this existed and were allowed until I saw Dave's video about YouTube paying for Likes/Dislikes and all this fake Google Plus+ and Facebook and other social media service companies. SO... Perhaps this stuff, if not already being done, may actually happen? What do you think?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on September 02, 2015, 05:50:48 pm

interesting idea, but there are easier and less risky ways to manipulate a market, as someone pointed out the shill backers only needed to back to the sum of $1 to allow them to post in the comments

creating media spin for your product is a far better idea... and legal

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 02, 2015, 06:43:29 pm

I just got the notification that the GPS unit just arrived at my front door.  Once I get home, it's on like donkey kong.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on September 02, 2015, 06:51:03 pm

Quote from: edy on September 02, 2015, 05:41:46 pm

PAYING TO KICKSTART A KICKSTARTER/GOGO AN INDIEGOGO

I don't know if I'd trust a company needing to stoop to such low standards to drum up support to pay me back my $105K.  Sounds like a highly risky way to make $5K.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on September 02, 2015, 06:57:53 pm

Ladies & Gentlemen, your attention please...

The part of "Batteriser Batteroo" on YouTube is now being played by "Batteriser Fan Page".

We now join our program currently in progress.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on September 02, 2015, 07:09:53 pm

Quote from: edy on September 02, 2015, 05:41:46 pm

You mean like this:
https://youtu.be/QfgoDDh4kE0?t=449

7:34 in the video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 02, 2015, 07:33:42 pm

More articles about Matthew Lesko:

https://www.thefranchiseking.com/free-government-money-for-a-franchise-purchase (https://www.thefranchiseking.com/free-government-money-for-a-franchise-purchase)

http://www.grantsnorthwest.com/grant-scams-1/ (http://www.grantsnorthwest.com/grant-scams-1/)

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/6692633/ns/business-personal_finance/t/agency-calls-tv-money-mans-claims-deceptive/ (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/6692633/ns/business-personal_finance/t/agency-calls-tv-money-mans-claims-deceptive/)

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Matthew_Lesko (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Matthew_Lesko)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/14/AR2007071401118_2.html?hpid=artslot (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/14/AR2007071401118_2.html?hpid=artslot)Ã%C2%83¢Ã%C2%82Â%C2%8AÃ%C2%82Â%C2%82=AR

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on September 02, 2015, 08:37:37 pm

One thing that makes all this even worse is WHY THE F**K do you do an interview on a channel like Matthew_Lesko.

1. He seems kinda out-there with the free everything
2. His videos have VERY few views

This batteriser thing (followed since beginning and been watching EEVBlog for some years) HAS ALL the red flags of scams and such.

SO far they have not shown ONE video with ANY proof, the only one that comes "close" is the GPS thing, even thou we have found reviews that say it will do about 10 hours (normal use), but as a couple of users here have ordered that GPS we will soon see what is what.

Oh and now again they have removed the like/dislike from their videos......

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SundayProgrammer on September 02, 2015, 08:48:54 pm

Quote from: jancumps on September 02, 2015, 02:03:31 pm

Quote from: neotesla on September 02, 2015, 01:49:23 pm

Quote from: SundayProgrammer on September 02, 2015, 12:27:29 pm

this discussion between Eevblog people and Batteriser fan boys is way below that. Unfortunately.

Axel.

So you'd reckon both sides are equally to blame for that?

This is not the first time that you're leaving me with the impression that you're implying some fault on Dave's (and his supporters') side. At least be clear about it.

I think he's allowed to have that opinion over here (if he has it :) ). Nothing wrong with that.

For me the video "eevBLAB #13 - Buying Youtube DISLIKES! - The Batteriser" was Dave crossing the line I wish he would not cross. It means that Dave keeps the debate as personal level as the Batteriser crew does. Perhaps I'm alone with an opinion that Batteriser reference in that video wasn't necessary. It is keeping on throwing gasoline on the flames. I just don't like where this conversation has been going to. I don't see absolutely no reason why any smart guy have any need to have discussion on that level.

Professional level of analyzing "Batteriser" or "Solar highway" or... what ever... yes please. Fundamental Fridays... yes please. Fundamental turned into practice... yes please.
If someone wants to bark about it... let them bark.

Axel.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 02, 2015, 09:05:05 pm

Quote from: SundayProgrammer on September 02, 2015, 08:48:54 pm

For me the video "eevBLAB #13 - Buying Youtube DISLIKES! - The Batteriser" was Dave crossing the line I wish he would not cross. It means that Dave keeps the debate as personal level as the Batteriser crew does.

Axel.

I don't think its crossing any line... the line was already well and truely crossed when someone affiliated with butteriser started buying dislikes.

If you're already both playing in the mud, throwing mud at each other, by all means, keep it up!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mayo2017 on September 02, 2015, 09:46:44 pm

It's not crossing any line when you've got someone trying to harm a legal business through fraudulent means.

Also that's not Matthew Lesko's first Batteriser video. His previous one has some... fantastic ongoing conversations. :blah:

Oh, and apparently UL's "independent performance testing" will be published by the end of the week. Fun times ahead.  :popcorn:
And dislikes on my video? I don't even have any videos.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 02, 2015, 10:25:09 pm

Does anyone still believe the Batteriser products can be shipped by November? That leaves 3 months now, assuming it is the last day of November. We have essentially 90 days.

We don't know if the Batteriser has been fabricated yet or if the final design has been chosen and they are already getting in gear for full-scale production.

In that time, if they have finished deciding on the final design, they will need to fabricate die and tooling for the factory to stamp out and bend the Batteriser frameworks. They will need a paint-finishing line to coat them so they don't short. They will need to have PCB's fabricated and components all ordered, with some kind of pick & place or other fabrication process to assemble them (or if they do chip-on-board). They will need a machine to automatically join the metal Batteriser clip to the PCB board.

This fabrication process will have to be repeated for at least 4 different battery sizes (AA, AAA, C, D). 

Finally once they set up for mass-fabrication, they will need to run the machines 24 hours a day for some time to fulfill all of the orders required, and then will need to set up a packaging line and print out packaging and then set up the order supply-chain through Amazon, warehousing and ship all of the initial Batterisers to crowd-funding backers.

Honestly, I vote on leaving Batteriser Batteroo alone for 3 months... All of this arguing about whether it works or not is going to be a distraction for them. They really need to grind in their heals just to get production in gear to meet the deadline before peak Christmas toy-shopping season (include a set of Batterisers with every toy). We don't want to keep them from making this device, do we? I'd rather set a reminder in 3 months and then start back up into this... And once we have actual Batterisers available, I am sure this can be settled once and for all.  :clap:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 02, 2015, 10:38:34 pm

So let me get this right... "Batteroo Fan Page" is just a "poor college student" and has several times denied being involved with Batteroo Inc. etc... yet he's sending e-mails on behalf of Batteroo offering media test kits? Again... more lies.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mayo2017 on September 02, 2015, 10:46:42 pm

Oh no, he's operating even after Batteriser asked him to shut down, don't you know. But I'm wrong about everything and he'll admit he's wrong if I buy a Batteriser for only $2.50 on Amazon this November and give it a disappointing review! Whatever shall I do to maintain my wonderful image on YouTube? :scared:

And the change of the channel name is absolutely hilarious. Especially since the internet doesn't just forget things.

Watching this guy scream at me dozens of times over is the most entertaining thing I've seen in a while.  :-/O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on September 02, 2015, 10:50:04 pm

It'd be pretty smart of Batteriser to have a "fan page" that is secretly run by them so that if anything goes south, what was said wouldn't be their responsibility.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 02, 2015, 10:50:25 pm

Quote from: edy on September 02, 2015, 10:25:09 pm

Does anyone still believe the Batteriser products can be shipped by November? That leaves 3 months now, assuming it is the last day of November. We have essentially 90 days.

No.  There are only about 30 days or less available for manufacturing.  The IGG campaign ends on or about Sept 24.  I don't know how it takes for IGG to clear funds,  but there are always delays with invalid credit cards not clearing, refunds, etc.  Then, it takes 30 days to typically ship a container from China and get it through customs.  (Companies like Apple can air-ship, but that's because the phones are worth $800 each. If Batteroo air-ships, they're toast.  Their product is 80% air and of low-value.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 03, 2015, 12:31:31 am

Got the GPS unit.  It shuts off at 1.1v per cell.  It'll run just fine at 1.105v per cell but as soon as it hits 1.1v per cell it turns itself off.

I'm about to pop in some brand new AA's and use a servo to keep the screen on at the same interval that they did in their video, and see how long it'll go.

Has batteriser stated what voltage their batteriser will work down to?  If it's 1.1v, this is already busted right open before I even start.  I'd hope it can do at least 0.7v.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on September 03, 2015, 12:39:52 am

I think that I found their schematic...... :-DD

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=169013;image)
http://www.engineering.com/DesignerEdge/DesignerEdgeArticles/ArticleID/10236/Meet-the-Simple-Device-That-Could-Revolutionize-the-Battery-Industry.aspx (http://www.engineering.com/DesignerEdge/DesignerEdgeArticles/ArticleID/10236/Meet-the-Simple-Device-That-Could-Revolutionize-the-Battery-Industry.aspx)

And some are questioning it's integrity..... :clap:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=169015;image)
http://architechnologist.com/three-battery-innovations-that-could-change-everything/#.VeeVLSWqqkp (http://architechnologist.com/three-battery-innovations-that-could-change-everything/#.VeeVLSWqqkp)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on September 03, 2015, 12:42:24 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 03, 2015, 12:31:31 am

Got the GPS unit.  It shuts off at 1.1v per cell.  It'll run just fine at 1.105v per cell but as soon as it hits 1.1v per cell it turns itself off.

I'm about to pop in some brand new AA's and use a servo to keep the screen on at the same interval that they did in their video, and see how long it'll go.

Has batteriser stated what voltage their batteriser will work down to?  If it's 1.1v, this is already busted right open before I even start.  I'd hope it can do at least 0.7v.

What battery setting? Does it display that warning message about using NiMH/Lithium rechargeables?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on September 03, 2015, 12:51:11 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 03, 2015, 12:31:31 am

Got the GPS unit.  It shuts off at 1.1v per cell.  It'll run just fine at 1.105v per cell but as soon as it hits 1.1v per cell it turns itself off.

I'm about to pop in some brand new AA's and use a servo to keep the screen on at the same interval that they did in their video, and see how long it'll go.

Has batteriser stated what voltage their batteriser will work down to?  If it's 1.1v, this is already busted right open before I even start.  I'd hope it can do at least 0.7v.

I have seen them claim 0.5V.

If you do build the servo thing, position the finger so that it clicks to "OK" button on the rechargable battery warning screen (but not the DONE button on the preview screen if that's possible).  Also make sure you are indoors and not receiving a good GPS signal in order to replicate their questionable test methods.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 03, 2015, 01:05:07 am

Quote from: amyk on September 03, 2015, 12:42:24 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 03, 2015, 12:31:31 am

Got the GPS unit.  It shuts off at 1.1v per cell.  It'll run just fine at 1.105v per cell but as soon as it hits 1.1v per cell it turns itself off.

I'm about to pop in some brand new AA's and use a servo to keep the screen on at the same interval that they did in their video, and see how long it'll go.

Has batteriser stated what voltage their batteriser will work down to?  If it's 1.1v, this is already busted right open before I even start.  I'd hope it can do at least 0.7v.

What battery setting? Does it display that warning message about using NiMH/Lithium rechargeables?

alkaline:
2.61v brightness dims (with warning on screen)
2.31v low battery warning
2.11v powers off

lithium:
2.82v low battery warning
2.16v powers off (screen still max brightness)

nimh:
2.59v low battery warning
2.16v powers off (screen still max brightness)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 03, 2015, 01:07:14 am

Quote from: lpickup on September 03, 2015, 12:51:11 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 03, 2015, 12:31:31 am

Got the GPS unit.  It shuts off at 1.1v per cell.  It'll run just fine at 1.105v per cell but as soon as it hits 1.1v per cell it turns itself off.

I'm about to pop in some brand new AA's and use a servo to keep the screen on at the same interval that they did in their video, and see how long it'll go.

Has batteriser stated what voltage their batteriser will work down to?  If it's 1.1v, this is already busted right open before I even start.  I'd hope it can do at least 0.7v.

I have seen them claim 0.5V.

If you do build the servo thing, position the finger so that it clicks to "OK" button on the rechargable battery warning screen (but not the DONE button on the preview screen if that's possible).  Also make sure you are indoors and not receiving a good GPS signal in order to replicate their questionable test methods.

I thought about that but was hoping that doing so won't make the gps have to load more info since it would be moving the cursor position if it isn't dead center, potentially draining faster than leaving the cursor in the same spot like their test did.  (if all else fails, I can do both methods--I have lots of AA's on hand)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 03, 2015, 01:36:48 am

Now that there is a circuit to look at, I have some questions. First, it looks like their diode may be an LED as the photos show a yellow SMD on the top of the PCB. Either way, isn't there a voltage drop (forward voltage) expected across a diode? Wouldn't the Batteriser need to output even greater voltage to overcome the diode?

Second, the PWM signal has to be powered by the battery as well. It appears to short the battery through the inductor, then when it is off the inductor current and voltage add to the battery. Is the PWM changing duty cycle based on the sensed voltage? It would barely need to be on initially when the battery is full, but again the diode voltage drop would need to be overcome.

Also during time PWM is on and shorting the battery (loading up the inductor), the load wouldn't get any voltage/current? Wouldn't it just average out?

Dave, I think we need a good Fundamentals Friday on that schematic and how it works, and other boost circuits.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 02:25:19 am

Heads up for those following only this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eevblab/eevblab-13-batteriser-how-to-buy-youtube-dislikes (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eevblab/eevblab-13-batteriser-how-to-buy-youtube-dislikes)!/msg745884/#msg745884
Info in the PR firm Batteriser are using, saying the "Representation of customers is FAKE"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 03, 2015, 02:46:33 am

Here is some more info on JPR communications:

http://m.marketwired.com/press-release/jpr-communications-hits-4-billion-total-client-acquisitions-following-successful-pr-1753711.htm (http://m.marketwired.com/press-release/jpr-communications-hits-4-billion-total-client-acquisitions-following-successful-pr-1753711.htm)

Quote

a proactive and strategic public relations firm specializing in launching startups and establishing data storage/cloud computing brands worldwide

No doubt they must know each other from the days when Frankie Roohparvar was head of Skyera and Micron Technologies, both enterprise flash storage tech startups.

Yup, here are past clients:

http://www.jprcom.com/clients.html (http://www.jprcom.com/clients.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: linux-works on September 03, 2015, 03:21:25 am

Quote from: edy on September 02, 2015, 03:49:16 pm

Please someone download that video before it disappears. It is a real comedy.  :-DD Never mind the Batteriser, it is just the way Mr. Lesko does his intro and the interview, it was very entertaining!

% cd /tmp
% youtube-dl 'https://www.youtube.com/embed/Yx5VE7xDRq4' (https://www.youtube.com/embed/Yx5VE7xDRq4')
[youtube] Setting language
[youtube] Yx5VE7xDRq4: Downloading webpage
[youtube] Yx5VE7xDRq4: Downloading video info webpage
[youtube] Yx5VE7xDRq4: Extracting video information
[download] Destination: How Stop Getting Ripped Off By The Battery Companies Gets $289.000 On Internet-Yx5VE7xDRq4.mp4

done.  its in my /tmp folder.  come get it anytime you want.

;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GoneTomorrow on September 03, 2015, 03:56:31 am

It's impressive how quickly this became the second-most-replied-to thread on this forum, and pretty sure it will soon be the most discussed. (in fact, if you add together all the threads related to Batteriser, it's by far the most discussed)
 
I kind of hope a product actually eventuates from this that we can do proper scientific analysis on, but the behaviour of Batteriser definitely isn't that of a company which actually has anything to deliver.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 04:01:10 am

Quote from: SundayProgrammer on September 02, 2015, 08:48:54 pm

For me the video "eevBLAB #13 - Buying Youtube DISLIKES! - The Batteriser" was Dave crossing the line I wish he would not cross. It means that Dave keeps the debate as personal level as the Batteriser crew does.

I have nothing against Betteriser/Batteroo personally. That video was in response to a forum post about the fake dislikes. That alone was interesting I thought to warrant a video.
And yes, I also decided to take on a response to the clown running the "fan page" who made some very serious accusations against me.
This is not about Batteriser the company.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 04:02:40 am

Quote from: GoneTomorrow on September 03, 2015, 03:56:31 am

It's impressive how quickly this became the second-most-replied-to thread on this forum

Nope, it's not even in the top 10.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mayo2017 on September 03, 2015, 04:24:56 am

It got a little weird on a Matthew Lesko video.

I'm also in the camp of "this is barely even about the Batteriser company anymore" since genius decided to make it personal.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SundayProgrammer on September 03, 2015, 04:51:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 04:01:10 am

Quote from: SundayProgrammer on September 02, 2015, 08:48:54 pm

For me the video "eevBLAB #13 - Buying Youtube DISLIKES! - The Batteriser" was Dave crossing the line I wish he would not cross. It means that Dave keeps the debate as personal level as the Batteriser crew does.

And yes, I also decided to take on a response to the clown running the "fan page" who made some very serious accusations against me.
This is not about Batteriser the company.

Yep, I was afraid that you'd reply that "but....they started it...".
Well... Batteriser (fan boys or what ever bunch of people they are) related ranting was entertaining for a while but it has now getting shapes which seem to be uglier and uglier every day. Enough of Batteriser related ranting.
Just ignore Batteriser fan boys barking - they are not worth it.

Axel.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 03, 2015, 05:53:10 am

What was done to Arlen Moulten is despicable and merits a profuse apology direct from Batteroo corporate.

i.e. A letter from the Board of Directors.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 06:47:36 am

Well there you go, they backed down and apologised :clap:
After Batteroo kicked their arse of course.
What's this rubbish about Batteroo not being able to set up a Youtube channel though? They have a ton of money, make all these professional videos, have a Vimeo channel, social media to the wazoo, but have no idea about how to set up a Youtube channel? Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 06:55:22 am

Quote from: Mayo2017 on September 03, 2015, 04:24:56 am

I'm also in the camp of "this is barely even about the Batteriser company anymore" since genius decided to make it personal.

Were is all this chat? presumably on Google+ somewhere? Can you provide a link please? (I don't use G+ and have no idea how to find stuff...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 03, 2015, 07:24:26 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 06:55:22 am

Quote from: Mayo2017 on September 03, 2015, 04:24:56 am

I'm also in the camp of "this is barely even about the Batteriser company anymore" since genius decided to make it personal.

Were is all this chat? presumably on Google+ somewhere? Can you provide a link please? (I don't use G+ and have no idea how to find stuff...)

The link to the YT comments in G+ seems to be hard to track down unless specifically made public.  The way I found the link was after someone else commented on the same thread I had, I then got a notification in G+.  From that notification, you can click into a "deep" link such as from the timestamp from the original comment, and it appears to ignore the YT moderation.  That's the link I shared a few pages back: https://plus.google.com/106095496873834311761/posts/9zCvkcWPjhu

I don't have a link to Mayo's comments so I can't track his above mentioned posts down.  Looks like the Batteriser Fan Page guy has been deleting many of his abusive comments anyway.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 03, 2015, 07:28:54 am

Quote from: Kean on September 03, 2015, 07:24:26 am

Looks like the Batteriser Fan Page guy has been deleting many of his abusive comments anyway.

Actually, scratch that.  I can now see the couple of comments I thought had gone missing (the ones directed at me).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 07:45:23 am

Quote from: Kean on September 03, 2015, 07:24:26 am

That's the link I shared a few pages back: https://plus.google.com/106095496873834311761/posts/9zCvkcWPjhu

Wow  :o
All this fun happening I didn't know about!
Seems like he's stopped posting now.
I wouldn't be surprised if he nuked the whole Youtube channel  and g+ account.
Those playing along at home should take captures while they still can.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on September 03, 2015, 07:54:36 am

Regarding the Batteriser full length explanation video http://youtu.be/622uCZ_pE0w (http://youtu.be/622uCZ_pE0w) at least there is an attempt to make a technical explanation.

o Brief current peaks exhibited by some devices will indeed cause brief voltage dips, and will be deeper as the cells deplete and their internal resistance increases, also exacerbated by the decreasing cell voltage as they discharge.

o The GPS used explicitly recommends the use of NiMH or Li cells instead of Alkaline, presumeably because of the inferior internal resistance of alkaline cells, thus making the voltage dips during high current load worse.

o There is continual requoting that the GPS is "well designed", however I wouldn't say so if the device was designed for alkaline batteries and reboots when the voltage dips due to creating 600mA current spikes. However, Garmin recommend NiMH and Li presumeably for exactly this reason. Online reviews of the device refer to strange battery behaviour too, so is it really that "well designed"?

o The presenter repeatedly mixes up energy, current and charge, and repeatedly ignores voltage when calculating remaining energy during a constant current test, on three occasions trying to place a completely arbitrarily placed current line on a voltage axis.

o The GPS test is not a representative use case. Not only are they not using recommended cells, the high energy, sunlight-readable display is continually kept active by tapping the touch screen. In real use this would not be the case. In addition, the GPS will continually be in acquisition mode as the test is performed inside.

In short, there is at least some technical point to the video, but still there are still some fundamental errors.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bookaboo on September 03, 2015, 08:23:19 am

^
I watched that video last night and the problem of voltage dips causing brownouts can be genuine if the product is poorly designed. It's not hard to solve at design stage with a good regulator selection and enough capacitance to ride out the dips. With that said, if the batteriser people had started with legitimate data showing this problem and some repeatable tests showing they solve it they would have gotten support here. In fact they *might* (published repeatable data depending) have a chance of a niche practical product.

However at 8.40 in the same video there's what looks to be a significant (deliberate?) error in how they work out the remaining energy in the battery. I'm pretty sure the area under the curve is the correct method, I really don't see how the original open cell voltage has anything to do with it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 03, 2015, 08:36:59 am

- Anyone who has used the "Approach" (http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/ApproachG3_OwnersManual.pdf) series Garmin golf GPS in question knows that the test is set up and fake. The message which comes up where they stop the test on Alkalines is a nag screen which you can "okay" to get past, and then the device continues working fine for another 8 plus hours after that. It basically says that the screen will reduce in brightness and to avoid that you should really use NiMH cells rather than Alkaline. The device has not "died" at that point.
- The analogy of the snail climbing the wall is not analogous at all, and has no relevance to the subject.
- Devices don't just suddenly die the moment they get a current spike that drops the battery to 1.1V. That is ridiculous, and no AA-run device works that way, regardless of their "test" of the Garmin. When a device uses spikes of current so great that it causes the cells to suddenly dip in voltage, and just as suddenly recovery, if they're "smart" devices, they have capacitance built in to smooth that out, and electronics to deal with the dips and troughs. If they're a "dumb" device, like a simple motor driven toy, then the device will keep running regardless of noise peaks and dips in the voltage.
- All of their tests are faked or skewed in some way using cherry-picked devices with very specific test conditions shown to make it appear that their device is working.

A good way to test their claims without even having a Batteriser would be to run alkalines in typical devices; remotes, mice, DMM's, toy trains, cymbal playing monkeys (?), etc; until they stop functioning at all (not just until a low battery message comes up).
Then, take the "dead" Alkaline cells and discharge them with test equipment logging the voltage and current to calculate the total power dischargeable from the cell.
That will show how much energy really remained in the cell after that particular device said it was "dead" (Because that's what is important, the remaining energy, not the open circuit voltage, of course, as everyone on this forum already knows).
Then you can take the total energy that type of cell has from new (according to the datasheets or from testing new cells of the same type), subtract the remaining energy, divide by the amount of time the device ran until it thought the battery was dead, and you will be able to calculate how much extra running time you might get if you were able to eke every single mWh out of the cells.
From my own experience and tests (not usable as my equipment isn't lab grade), when my AA-run devices say their battery is dead, the cells have very very little usable energy left in them, regardless of what open circuit voltage the cells recover to after being removed. (Anyway, I've switched everything over to eneloops nowadays. My days of using Alkalines are long gone (except in super low energy devices like wall clocks, remote controls, and DMMs)).

As has already been stated previously, most modern devices that run on AA cells are very good at using up nearly all of the available energy in the cells.
I think part of that is because most of the AA devices (those I own and use anyway), are designed to also run well on NIMH cells, so they all work fine down to 0.8-0.9V/Cell (under load), at which point there is really very little energy remaining in any cell, Alkaline or NiMH.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: neotesla on September 03, 2015, 08:37:10 am

Quote from: SundayProgrammer on September 02, 2015, 04:01:27 pm

lpickup summarizes pretty well what I meant. Also when Dave calls someone as "clown" it is throwing gasoline on the fire.... as an example.

There are still nastier (and yet correct) names for people who use that kind of phony marketing for their products, let alone pay some poor sods in Vietnam to dislike Dave's videos.

But it's OK, I suppose, for us to disagree. The matter seems to be resolving itself, anyway (which is good). :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 03, 2015, 08:51:13 am

Quote from: bookaboo on September 03, 2015, 08:23:19 am

...at 8.40 in the same video there's what looks to be a significant (deliberate?) error in how they work out the remaining energy in the battery. I'm pretty sure the area under the curve is the correct method, I really don't see how the original open cell voltage has anything to do with it.

Yes, you're exactly right. "Frankie" was switching back and forth between remaining ENERGY and remaining TIME. Yes, the current in a constant current discharge test remains the same, but because the VOLTAGE is dropping, the POWER is also dropping, so the area contained in the small lower part of the curve is indeed the remaining energy, not the large area shown with the straight line which he drew in.

There are two possibilities. 1: He's incredibly ignorant about a product he had a part in designing and is marketing. or 2: He's deliberately skewing tests and using sleight of hand marketing to trick people.
Given his business and electronics history, I'd say it was the latter. He seems like particularly weasley kind of person to me, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was involved in nasty little tricks like paying for negative youtube votes to detractors. The whole thing about the 500 patents and 200 more in the pipeline, and how he was describing himself and his "brain", all just reeks of sleazy businessman to me. The 700 patents are probably more about him litigating big business for breaches of his so-called patents and reaching monetary settlements than 700 actual inventions he's come up with...  Maybe I'm wrong, but this entire marketing strategy for this little product gives me a bad feeling about him and his "team".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mayo2017 on September 03, 2015, 08:59:58 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 07:45:23 am

I wouldn't be surprised if he nuked the whole Youtube channel  and g+ account.
Those playing along at home should take captures while they still can.

Oh believe me, I got lots of them I posted quite some pages back. I REFUSED to stop hammering until I came out on top, whether that makes me persistent or an asshole I don't know. The apology conversation I had with him/them and posted a few posts up was on one of Matthew Lesko's videos, not on any Batteriser-affiliated channel. I tried to keep it there so they couldn't mute or delete things quite so easily. It goes for quite a while.

Edit: In the interest of transparency and record-keeping, here's the full saga.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SteveyG on September 03, 2015, 09:29:37 am

Quote from: edy on September 03, 2015, 01:36:48 am

Now that there is a circuit to look at, I have some questions. First, it looks like their diode may be an LED as the photos show a yellow SMD on the top of the PCB. Either way, isn't there a voltage drop (forward voltage) expected across a diode? Wouldn't the Batteriser need to output even greater voltage to overcome the diode?

Second, the PWM signal has to be powered by the battery as well. It appears to short the battery through the inductor, then when it is off the inductor current and voltage add to the battery. Is the PWM changing duty cycle based on the sensed voltage? It would barely need to be on initially when the battery is full, but again the diode voltage drop would need to be overcome.

Also during time PWM is on and shorting the battery (loading up the inductor), the load wouldn't get any voltage/current? Wouldn't it just average out?

Dave, I think we need a good Fundamentals Friday on that schematic and how it works, and other boost circuits.

This is the basic schematic for a boost converter and is covered in every boost converter tutorial. I do not think there is anything to be analysed here. The nuances of more sophisticated DC-DCs for use at extra low voltages are more interesting and akin to a video Dave has done in the past on energy harvesting.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Joule Thief on September 03, 2015, 10:18:10 am

Quote from: edy on September 03, 2015, 01:36:48 am

Dave, I think we need a good Fundamentals Friday on that schematic and how it works, and other boost circuits.

Another member on the forum has created a very detailed explanation of a boost converter operation. Check out his YouTube video(s) - great stuff!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOp57JCnWqE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOp57JCnWqE)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on September 03, 2015, 10:36:40 am

Quote from: bookaboo on September 03, 2015, 08:23:19 am

^
I watched that video last night and the problem of voltage dips causing brownouts can be genuine if the product is poorly designed. It's not hard to solve at design stage with a good regulator selection and enough capacitance to ride out the dips.

Precisely.

Quote

However at 8.40 in the same video there's what looks to be a significant (deliberate?) error in how they work out the remaining energy in the battery. I'm pretty sure the area under the curve is the correct method, I really don't see how the original open cell voltage has anything to do with it.

The way I read it was that he was placing a 100mA constant current at an arbitrary place on the the voltage axis. If it were the off-load voltage, then that too will decrease. If it is meant to be the voltage when it comes fresh out of the pack as you say then that too has little relevance.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 03, 2015, 10:56:06 am

The batteriser guy states now that he contacted Dave in many ways.
The main reason I don't believe it, is that for the first time he's polite, even overly, and the answer he said to have received isn't the style I know from Dave.

Google screenshot in attachment.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on September 03, 2015, 10:57:38 am

Quote from: samgab on September 03, 2015, 08:36:59 am

- ... the device continues working fine for another 8 plus hours after that. It basically says that the screen will reduce in brightness and to avoid that you should really use NiMH cells rather than Alkaline. The device has not "died" at that point.

That would seem to be reflected by user experience on Amazon, about three rounds of golf.

Quote

- The analogy of the snail climbing the wall is not analogous at all, and has no relevance to the subject.

That passed me by too. I couldn't see the relevance.

On another note, there seems to be a subtle change in the Batteriser use case: rather than using the Batteriser with the cells all the time, there seems to be a suggestion that you only slip them on when a cell is starting to fail in a device.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on September 03, 2015, 11:07:35 am

Quote from: Howardlong on September 03, 2015, 07:54:36 am

...
o There is continual requoting that the GPS is "well designed", however I wouldn't say so if the device was designed for alkaline batteries and reboots when the voltage dips due to creating 600mA current spikes. However, Garmin recommend NiMH and Li presumeably for exactly this reason. Online reviews of the device refer to strange battery behaviour too, so is it really that "well designed"?
...
o The GPS test is not a representative use case. Not only are they not using recommended cells, the high energy, sunlight-readable display is continually kept active by tapping the touch screen. In real use this would not be the case. In addition, the GPS will continually be in acquisition mode as the test is performed inside.

I don't necessarily have a problem with these two issues raised.  In the latter statement, sure, it's not a representative use case, but at least it's apples to apples.  It speeds up the test by keeping the backlight on.  We do similar types of accelerated lifetime testing so we don't have to literally test a product out to 100K power on hours.  The one caveat is this though:  as I've mentioned before, use of the Batteriser will defeat the screen dimming power saving feature and theoretically shorten battery life because of that.  If the device is readable in all situations where it would be used without the backlight, then I would say yes, it's fair to test the unit without the "finger pressing".  Although in this case, it seems like a really poor design that the backlight is on unnecessarily when the battery is fresh.

As for the former issue:  use in older and poorly designed products.  My feeling is that if there are a lot of these products out there in people's homes, then it's fair to put those types of products forward as candidates for Batteriser use.  If there really were a lot of these products that had high cut-off voltages or shut off prematurely after the slightest "kiss" of the cut-off voltage, then fine, there is a case to be made for the Batteriser.  Dave showed in the first video that high cut-off voltage devices don't exist (although I will say that Dave probably has higher than average quality devices lying around).  And I bet they had to specifically search for a device that exhibited this kind of behavior.  I don't think it's common at all.

I guess most damning though is the fact that I am now convinced that they cheated on the GPS test.  Did the GPS actually shut off shortly after the screen dimmed or did they just declare it dead and turn it off manually.  I don't think there was enough to go on in the original video to make this call.  But very clearly in the full length video Chris points to the point at which the device died, and clearly it did not.  I'm usually willing to give people the benefit of the doubt until more data is provided, but in this case I really think they cheated.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 03, 2015, 11:16:10 am

Quote from: Galenbo on September 03, 2015, 10:56:06 am

The batteriser guy states now that he contacted Dave in many ways.
The main reason I don't believe it, is that for the first time he's polite, even overly, and the answer he said to have received isn't the style I know from Dave.

Dave stated multiple times that they didn't contact him. I guess it is as wrong as their defamation that Dave did the image with the twins sisters and the monkey head, which I think was not a good idea, but from another EEVblog poster, not from Dave.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 11:23:22 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on September 03, 2015, 11:16:10 am

Quote from: Galenbo on September 03, 2015, 10:56:06 am

The batteriser guy states now that he contacted Dave in many ways.
The main reason I don't believe it, is that for the first time he's polite, even overly, and the answer he said to have received isn't the style I know from Dave.

Dave stated multiple times that they didn't contact him. I guess it is as wrong as their defamation that Dave did the image with the twins sisters and the monkey head, which I think was not a good idea, but from another EEVblog poster, not from Dave.

For the last time, neither this "fan page guy", nor anyone connected with Batteriser has ever contacted me by email. EVER.
I have never replied to anyone because I have never got any email from them! I'd love to see proof of that email.
And what "public discussion" and what "page"?
If it's Google+ I have said multiple times I do not use Google+, I don't see anything on Google+, nor do I follow comment on their videos.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=169084;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 03, 2015, 11:25:21 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 11:23:22 am

For the last time, neither this "fan page guy", nor anyone connected with Batteriser has ever contacted me by email.
I have never replied to anyone because I have never got any email from them! I'd love to see proof of that email.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=169084;image)

Why would they contact you?
For a $2.50 device, they'd just send it to you and hope you did a review...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 03, 2015, 11:42:06 am

I guess all that's left to do is wait for this Batteriser product to actually be manufactured and sent out (if it ever happens). All the science behind it has already been proven (or disproven) by Dave, meanwhile Batteroo (and everyone remotely associated with them) have been left looking like absolute fools.

We just have to twiddle our thumbs... and wait... until then, it's business as usual for the EEVblog. Keep it up DJ  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 03, 2015, 11:54:14 am

Quote from: Howardlong on September 03, 2015, 10:57:38 am

On another note, there seems to be a subtle change in the Batteriser use case: rather than using the Batteriser with the cells all the time, there seems to be a suggestion that you only slip them on when a cell is starting to fail in a device.

It sounds like a good idea...until you find out you only get a few more minutes of life before you have to put some more batteries in it.

How many times would you do that before you decide it's a waste of time?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SundayProgrammer on September 03, 2015, 12:30:03 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 11:23:22 am

For the last time, neither this "fan page guy", nor anyone connected with Batteriser has ever contacted me by email. EVER.

I think that at least one contact was made a week ago. It is a comment post to a "#786" youtube video:
https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=3OrG5ucVQBA (https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=3OrG5ucVQBA)

Axel.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 03, 2015, 12:37:43 pm

Quote from: SundayProgrammer on September 03, 2015, 12:30:03 pm

I think that at least one contact was made a week ago. It is a comment post to a "#786" youtube video:
https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=3OrG5ucVQBA (https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=3OrG5ucVQBA)

In a comment on the Sydney maker faire video?  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on September 03, 2015, 12:45:04 pm

Quote from: SundayProgrammer on September 03, 2015, 04:51:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 04:01:10 am

Quote from: SundayProgrammer on September 02, 2015, 08:48:54 pm

For me the video "eevBLAB #13 - Buying Youtube DISLIKES! - The Batteriser" was Dave crossing the line I wish he would not cross. It means that Dave keeps the debate as personal level as the Batteriser crew does.

And yes, I also decided to take on a response to the clown running the "fan page" who made some very serious accusations against me.
This is not about Batteriser the company.

Yep, I was afraid that you'd reply that "but....they started it...".
Well... Batteriser (fan boys or what ever bunch of people they are) related ranting was entertaining for a while but it has now getting shapes which seem to be uglier and uglier every day. Enough of Batteriser related ranting.
Just ignore Batteriser fan boys barking - they are not worth it.

Axel.

I'm sure the people who get ripped off and lose money will be happy that the people who could have warned them decided to keep quiet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 01:19:00 pm

Quote from: SundayProgrammer on September 03, 2015, 12:30:03 pm

I think that at least one contact was made a week ago. It is a comment post to a "#786" youtube video:
https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=3OrG5ucVQBA (https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=3OrG5ucVQBA)

On my Maker Faire video!  :-DD
No wonder I didn't see it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SundayProgrammer on September 03, 2015, 01:26:37 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 01:19:00 pm

Quote from: SundayProgrammer on September 03, 2015, 12:30:03 pm

I think that at least one contact was made a week ago. It is a comment post to a "#786" youtube video:
https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=3OrG5ucVQBA (https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=3OrG5ucVQBA)

On my Maker Faire video!  :-DD
No wonder I didn't see it.

Yep. A wrong place and obviously not noticed. The letter is quite polite and constructive. Is is possible to hold on "anti-batteriser videos" for a moment and listen what they have in mind.
I don't know about rest of you but I would like to see the actual product in your hands reviewed and analyzed.

Axel.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 03, 2015, 01:29:38 pm

It is interesting how the Batteriser Fan Page has access to Batterisers and signs their post "Batteriser Team" yet claims no association with Batteroo. And in their post to Dave offering a test kit (on his Maker Faire video no less) talk as if in the first person like they are from Batteriser. Yeah, they are very definitely very linked to Batteriser and have access to all the videos and inside information.

With respect to the test kit, why not do what EVERYONE ELSE has done which is send one in the mail to Dave Jones that crazy Aussie bloke, not Austria, and mail it to his mailbox PO Box. No strings attached. We don't need any video chat between Batteriser and Dave. We need a no strings attached Batteriser (or several Batterisers) in Dave's hands so he can independently test them, do a teardown and circuit analysis and review the merits of this product. I trust Dave to tell it like it is, and if the Batteriser has any usefulness in certain cases I am sure he will point it out.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 03, 2015, 01:30:45 pm

Quote from: SundayProgrammer on September 03, 2015, 01:26:37 pm

Is is possible to hold on "anti-batteriser videos" for a moment and listen what they have in mind.

What "anti-batteriser" videos?

I haven't seen any "anti-batteriser" videos on here.

I've seen some videos pointing out technical mistakes in the Batteriser claims, some videos calling them clowns when they deserve it by acting like clowns, but no "anti-batteriser" videos.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 03, 2015, 01:34:04 pm

Ok, Dave, accept the offering of a Batteriser.  ;) ;) ;)
 
Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on September 03, 2015, 01:37:26 pm

Quote from: edy on September 03, 2015, 01:29:38 pm

It is interesting how the Batteriser Fan Page has access to Batterisers and signs their post "Batteriser Team" yet claims no association with Batteroo. And in their post to Dave offering a test kit (on his Maker Faire video no less) talk as if in the first person like they are from Batteriser. Yeah, they are very definitely very linked to Batteriser and have access to all the videos and inside information.

With respect to the test kit, why not do what EVERYONE ELSE has done which is send one in the mail to Dave Jones that crazy Aussie bloke, not Austria, and mail it to his mailbox PO Box. No strings attached. We don't need any video chat between Batteriser and Dave. We need a no strings attached Batteriser (or several Batterisers) in Dave's hands so he can independently test them, do a teardown and circuit analysis and review the merits of this product. I trust Dave to tell it like it is, and if the Batteriser has any usefulness in certain cases I am sure he will point it out.

It's obvious Dave tries to be as unbiased as possible. I think in the first debunking video he mentions that it might have uses in certain applications but those applications are far and few between. The biggest [technical] issue is their original claim of 800% more battery life which then changed to 80% more. The former being absolutely ridiculous and the latter also  ridiculous but to average Joe they perhaps thought it would seem "plausible". It might be a good product for incandescent flashlights for instance, but it will NOT give you 80% more battery life. If anything, it will ensure that you have constant brightness at the expense of reduced battery life. if they came out with a claim such as this I'm sure no one would care and we might have though it would have been a great product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 03, 2015, 01:37:49 pm

Quote from: lpickup on September 03, 2015, 11:07:35 am

Quote from: Howardlong on September 03, 2015, 07:54:36 am

...
o There is continual requoting that the GPS is "well designed", however I wouldn't say so if the device was designed for alkaline batteries and reboots when the voltage dips due to creating 600mA current spikes. However, Garmin recommend NiMH and Li presumeably for exactly this reason. Online reviews of the device refer to strange battery behaviour too, so is it really that "well designed"?
...
o The GPS test is not a representative use case. Not only are they not using recommended cells, the high energy, sunlight-readable display is continually kept active by tapping the touch screen. In real use this would not be the case. In addition, the GPS will continually be in acquisition mode as the test is performed inside.

I don't necessarily have a problem with these two issues raised.  In the latter statement, sure, it's not a representative use case, but at least it's apples to apples.  It speeds up the test by keeping the backlight on.  We do similar types of accelerated lifetime testing so we don't have to literally test a product out to 100K power on hours.  The one caveat is this though:  as I've mentioned before, use of the Batteriser will defeat the screen dimming power saving feature and theoretically shorten battery life because of that.  If the device is readable in all situations where it would be used without the backlight, then I would say yes, it's fair to test the unit without the "finger pressing".  Although in this case, it seems like a really poor design that the backlight is on unnecessarily when the battery is fresh.

As for the former issue:  use in older and poorly designed products.  My feeling is that if there are a lot of these products out there in people's homes, then it's fair to put those types of products forward as candidates for Batteriser use.  If there really were a lot of these products that had high cut-off voltages or shut off prematurely after the slightest "kiss" of the cut-off voltage, then fine, there is a case to be made for the Batteriser.  Dave showed in the first video that high cut-off voltage devices don't exist (although I will say that Dave probably has higher than average quality devices lying around).  And I bet they had to specifically search for a device that exhibited this kind of behavior.  I don't think it's common at all.

I guess most damning though is the fact that I am now convinced that they cheated on the GPS test.  Did the GPS actually shut off shortly after the screen dimmed or did they just declare it dead and turn it off manually.  I don't think there was enough to go on in the original video to make this call.  But very clearly in the full length video Chris points to the point at which the device died, and clearly it did not.  I'm usually willing to give people the benefit of the doubt until more data is provided, but in this case I really think they cheated.

Without even testing, I guarantee they just stopped the test when the screen brightness warning came on.  The thing ran down to 1.1v per cell, which is the majority of the energy in those AA's, and what's left could not possibly run the GPS unit 5x longer.  Not possible.  But there's no way I'm going to stop there when I can make a video to disprove their dishonest marketing further.

I got the test rig mostly set up last night.  Similar to theirs, only I'm using a servo instead of a "taken-apart" relay.  I'll use the same interval for touching the screen.  I'm going to datalog the whole thing too.  I'm going to use my 34461A to datalog via Agilent's BenchVue software.  I figure it's worth doing some high resolution datalogging to see if these voltage "dips" really exist or not.

I agree that using the batteriser will probably HURT the battery life of that unit since it defeats the battery saving screen dimming feature.  I have another garmin gps unit, non touchscreen, that uses the exact same LCD screen and without the backlight on, it'll go all day no problem.  I've taken it on several float trips where we started at 7am and we didn't get back until ~12 hrs later.  The GPS was on the entire time and didn't ever give any warnings about battery life the entire time.  (it uses AA's just like the approach G3)  There's no way batteriser gave them 5x the time. 

EDIT:  I forgot, that's not to mention the 10-15%+ loss in the boost converter

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 03, 2015, 01:57:01 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 03, 2015, 01:37:49 pm

EDIT:  I forgot, that's not to mention the 10-15%+ loss in the boost converter

10-15% is rather generous IMHO. If you could get 10-15% efficiency out of a tiny inductor with voltage doubling and "as much current as a battery is able to supply to the device" (Batteroo's words) then somebody would have already noticed by now.

Linear Tech, Analog Devices, TI, etc. have been working on this problem for decades.

But hey, feel free to prove me wrong. I'll survive the shaming!  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 03, 2015, 02:06:54 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 03, 2015, 01:37:49 pm

...I got the test rig mostly set up last night.  Similar to theirs, only I'm using a servo instead of a "taken-apart" relay.  I'll use the same interval for touching the screen.  I'm going to datalog the whole thing too.  I'm going to use my 34461A to datalog via Agilent's BenchVue software.  I figure it's worth doing some high resolution datalogging to see if these voltage "dips" really exist or not...

Can't wait to see your video response  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 03, 2015, 02:10:15 pm

Quote from: samgab on September 03, 2015, 02:06:54 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 03, 2015, 01:37:49 pm

...I got the test rig mostly set up last night.  Similar to theirs, only I'm using a servo instead of a "taken-apart" relay.  I'll use the same interval for touching the screen.  I'm going to datalog the whole thing too.  I'm going to use my 34461A to datalog via Agilent's BenchVue software.  I figure it's worth doing some high resolution datalogging to see if these voltage "dips" really exist or not...

Can't wait to see your video response  :popcorn:

Be sure to get a clear shot of the screen when the "NiMH" message appears and good footage of you dismissing the message before continuing the test for several more hours.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 03, 2015, 02:20:24 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 03, 2015, 01:37:49 pm

I got the test rig mostly set up last night.  Similar to theirs, only I'm using a servo instead of a "taken-apart" relay.  I'll use the same interval for touching the screen.  I'm going to datalog the whole thing too.  I'm going to use my 34461A to datalog via Agilent's BenchVue software.  I figure it's worth doing some high resolution datalogging to see if these voltage "dips" really exist or not.

Please do a teardown after your tests, some highres photos of the circuit board, or just send it to Dave :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 03, 2015, 02:35:27 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/bINeSnP.png)

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on September 03, 2015, 02:42:43 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 06:47:36 am

Well there you go, they backed down and apologised :clap:
After Batteroo kicked their arse of course.
What's this rubbish about Batteroo not being able to set up a Youtube channel though? They have a ton of money, make all these professional videos, have a Vimeo channel, social media to the wazoo, but have no idea about how to set up a Youtube channel? Sorry, I'm not buying it.

 ¯\_(?)_/¯


It's a wise combination of astroturfing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing) and a tricky try to avoid legal responsibility to the information in their videos.

The fanboys were a way to do bullying by proxy and make astroturfing a bit less obvious or obfuscated, but this crap can be researched.

Maybe they didn't research a shit about EE for the product, but they seem smart asses

Quote from: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 07:45:23 am

Quote from: Kean on September 03, 2015, 07:24:26 am

That's the link I shared a few pages back: https://plus.google.com/106095496873834311761/posts/9zCvkcWPjhu

Wow  :o
All this fun happening I didn't know about!
Seems like he's stopped posting now.
I wouldn't be surprised if he nuked the whole Youtube channel  and g+ account.
Those playing along at home should take captures while they still can.

What about contacting organizations like this?

http://www.fraud.org
http://scambust.org

Maybe there are more a lot sites like this, I don't know right now.

Kind regards.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 03, 2015, 03:15:05 pm

This illustrates some of the two-sided coin that is crowd-funding. Namely, while it helps to promote your product (the media and hype train) that follows very successful Kickstarter and IndieGogo campaigns, it can also work against you.

I do not believe Batteriser needed the money necessarily from IndieGogo. It was purely a strategic play on the part of their investment capitalists and PR firm to create promotion. However, early release of the concept to market (before product availability) created a huge opportunity for analysis which, in the case of Batteriser, created more negativity.

Looking back, I think they would have been better off just releasing the thing on the unsuspecting public and marketing the heck out of it in more traditional ways. By the time anyone figured anything out, they would have sold millions because items that cheap tend not to bother consumers much if they feel it was a waste. "Oh well, I spent $2.50 at Wal-Mart when I bought my batteries for my kids toy and it didn't really work, who cares?".

When the dust finally settles and we have some more history behind us sometime in the fall and next year, there will be a lot to learn from this story, even more than the electronics that we are focusing on now. I do hope the Batteriser materializes... It would be a shame for it to just vanish. While that may be better to avoid a potential "scam" situation, we would never quite get full closure on this. We'd always be left wondering, what exactly was in that device and what was the performance?

I eagerly await the release of the Batteriser when everyone in the world will have access to it and we all can independently evaluate it. If nothing more, it may be an interesting gadget to hack and use the bits from to do various other things.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 03, 2015, 03:36:50 pm

Quote from: edy on September 03, 2015, 03:15:05 pm

I do hope the Batteriser materializes...

Has anybody come up with a device that's designed: a) to run on common alkaline/NiMH batteries, and b) that has a cutoff voltage above 1.1V?

Until we do, Batterizer is worse then useless. It will shorten battery life.

nb. This is being generous and assuming an 80-90% conversion efficiency. It can get a lot worse.

Quote from: edy on September 03, 2015, 03:15:05 pm

By the time anyone figured anything out, they would have sold millions because items that cheap tend not to bother consumers much if they feel it was a waste. "Oh well, I spent $2.50 at Wal-Mart when I bought my batteries for my kids toy and it didn't really work, who cares?".

Nope. People should be protected against false claims and snake-oil products.

(And yes, there are laws...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 03, 2015, 03:51:56 pm

Quote

Nope. People should be protected against false claims and snake-oil products.
(And yes, there are laws...)

Yes true. Unfortunately we are not in the position here on EEVBlog to be the police. I don't think Dave wants to necessarily police the entire world of crappy electronics products either. But calling out fakes and scams, flooding the internet with "balancing" viewpoints (to counter-act the media PR spin) and informing the real CONSUMER PROTECTION bureaus is all that we can really do? No?

The problem is, until a product is actually "out in the market" nothing can be done. You can't stop a product that doesn't exist and hasn't actually harmed anyone yet, nor gone through testing to dispute false advertising. So until Batteriser actually exists, we can all bark and shout but the real "police" won't be able to do anything.


EDIT:  One other thing - once the Batteriser is physically being produced and can be tested, there will be independently verifiable and reproducible data that can be used for any lawsuits claiming false advertising, harm to people and devices, and so on. Then the lawyers can nail Batteriser to the wall and make them pay. But until then, we can only discuss the scientific merits of their claims on theory only. Unless they have discovered some "magical sauce" that is in the Batteriser, we will know soon enough.

EDIT 2: Case in point - The "Airing" (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/the-airing/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/the-airing/)) is a crowd-funded project that has over $1,000,000 in money raised. It has the real potential to harm people, and everything points to it being a SCAM OF MONUMENTAL PROPORTIONS. IndieGogo washes their hands of it. The campaign site has been white-washed of all negative comments, serious questions and critiques. Medically-compromised people are desperate for this to work and have paid on average > $100 each to get in on this. We won't know for 2-3 years what will be, and by my understanding of the laws regarding crowd-funding campaigns, there is NO LEGAL RECOURSE anyone can take at this point to bust it open. By comparison, the Batteriser is small-potatoes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 03, 2015, 04:40:04 pm

Quote from: firewalker on September 03, 2015, 02:35:27 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/bINeSnP.png)

What is the use of announcing that you will be announcing "great news" some time soon? If you know you have "great news", why not just share it? This isn't the first time they announce the announcement of some time soon great news.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 03, 2015, 04:43:23 pm

Quote from: edy on September 03, 2015, 03:51:56 pm

The problem is, until a product is actually "out in the market" nothing can be done. You can't stop a product that doesn't exist and hasn't actually harmed anyone yet, nor gone through testing to dispute false advertising. So until Batteriser actually exists, we can all bark and shout but the real "police" won't be able to do anything.

EDIT:  One other thing - once the Batteriser is physically being produced and can be tested, there will be independently verifiable and reproducible data that can be used for any lawsuits claiming false advertising, harm to people and devices, and so on. Then the lawyers can nail Batteriser to the wall and make them pay. But until then, we can only discuss the scientific merits of their claims on theory only. Unless they have discovered some "magical sauce" that is in the Batteriser, we will know soon enough.

We don't need to own a Batteriser to measure cutoff voltages or pull batteries out of our devices and test their "only 20% used" claim.

We don't need to own a Batteriser to know their videos are lies - we can see them measuring batteries open-circuit right there on video, despite their own FAQ telling us this is the wrong way to do it. Daves measurements of the monkey are just icing on the cake.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 03, 2015, 05:15:40 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 03, 2015, 04:43:23 pm

We don't need to own a Batteriser to measure cutoff voltages or pull batteries out of our devices and test their "only 20% used" claim.

We don't need to own a Batteriser to know their videos are lies - we can see them measuring batteries open-circuit right there on video, despite their own FAQ telling us this is the wrong way to do it. Daves measurements of the monkey are just icing on the cake.

I agree. The videos are all marketing B.S. - but because they have not sold anybody anything yet, there is no actual legal recourse. Sure they took a bunch of money from crowd-funders... over $300,000, and promised them absolute horse manure. But the laws have not caught up to this yet. Batteroo can still refund the money. None of the backers are getting together (yet) to demand any compensation... They willingly gave Batteroo money. There are still no victims to come forward.

After a few months, when the backers start getting their Batteriser and find out it is complete nonsense, perhaps they will launch a class-action lawsuit against Batteroo for damages. On the other hand, if Batteroo delays and stalls on delivering the Batteriser or never fulfill their campaign promise, the backers can sue them for a refund of the money.

The way crowd-funding is legally worded, I believe it is very hard to argue a case. There is only 1 that I know of in the news that finally got sued (a Kickstarter campaign). Many hundreds of scams have never had any legal recourse, even after the campaign creator took off with all the money.

We really need a lawyer who knows this stuff to explain the ramifications of crowd-funding campaigns and how false and misleading advertising is regulated in this new arena, whether "the public" needs protection or only people who are "backers" (a very different group) as they could argue that it is very different from a product sold on the shelves in the open, versus an investment or support or donation to develop a product.... with a "reward" attached. I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know. The fact that so many scammers go to IndieGogo and Kickstarter is likely due to the very shady legal frameworks and they know it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 03, 2015, 05:27:48 pm

I don't understand why anyone is talking about legal recourse, lawsuits? What.

What we are seeing here is simply the biology equivalent of creationism. Whenever you see nonsense like this in tech, debunk it, debate it, explain why they are lying, give the science. When they want to teach overunity and free perpetual motion physics in the classrooms, that's when the law comes into the discussion.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 03, 2015, 05:38:08 pm

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on September 03, 2015, 05:27:48 pm

I don't understand why anyone is talking about legal recourse, lawsuits? What.

What we are seeing here is simply the biology equivalent of creationism. Whenever you see nonsense like this in tech, debunk it, debate it, explain why they are lying, give the science. When they want to teach overunity and free perpetual motion physics in the classrooms, that's when the law comes into the discussion.

Exactly. The way I see it is this. Batteroo has $300,000 of people's money. Either they deliver what the backers expect, or they don't, in which case they will have a bunch of angry people wanting their money back. Batteroo has dug this hole for themselves. They will have to answer for it, one way or the other.

Meanwhile, the rest of us who are watching this debacle are doing what we can to uncover the nonsense with the only objective reproducible non-biased approach possible.... the science. Dave and many others have done testing and critical analysis that will have hopefully educated many more people that otherwise would have known about it.

The only "legal" contract that is involved here is between backers and Batteroo, or when (and if) it ever gets sold to the consumer public, will be between people who buy it, or not.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 03, 2015, 05:52:34 pm

Except Indiegogo specifically states that backers have no rights here, all and any support is between the backer and the campaign. There's no contract or expectation of delivery of these perks. Kind companies try to give back the money, but they don't have to. Failed startups get away with this all the time, the sums involved per individual is usually too low for anyone to 'really' care.

I think you would win if you were to take them to court, as the government do treat campaign perks as purchases (at least that's how they tax them here). Anyone in the US now the VAT rates charged on these campaigns?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 03, 2015, 05:58:18 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 03, 2015, 01:30:45 pm

What "anti-batteriser" videos?

I haven't seen any "anti-batteriser" videos on here.

I've seen some videos pointing out technical mistakes in the Batteriser claims, some videos calling them clowns when they deserve it by acting like clowns, but no "anti-batteriser" videos.

As there is still no product/proto/schematic/documentation/... some people see "batteriser" as just collection of false promises, lies and scam.
In that definition, I am definitely anti-batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 03, 2015, 06:03:28 pm

Quote from: edy on September 03, 2015, 05:38:08 pm

...
The only "legal" contract that is involved here is between backers and Batteroo, or when (and if) it ever gets sold to the consumer public, will be between people who buy it, or not.

False marketing is illegal, customers or not.
Falsely discredit a company like in their comments is illegal too.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 03, 2015, 06:10:27 pm

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on September 03, 2015, 05:52:34 pm

Except Indiegogo specifically states that backers have no rights here

No legal recourse against IndieGoGo isn't the same as "no rights".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 03, 2015, 06:15:37 pm

Interestingly, indiegogo is now starting a refund scheme (only started 1st of Sept 2 days ago):

Effective Tuesday, September 1, 2015, contributors may request a refund from Indiegogo, before the end of a fixed or flexible funding campaign they have contributed to. For campaigns that have entered the InDemand program, contributors may request a refund from Indiegogo within 10 days of the contribution.

https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/526876?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bills on September 03, 2015, 06:19:43 pm

[quote
 Anyone in the US now the VAT rates charged on these campaigns?
[/quote]

The US has no VAT tax we would not stand for that kind of nonsense.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 03, 2015, 06:22:20 pm

Quote from: bills on September 03, 2015, 06:19:43 pm

 Anyone in the US now the VAT rates charged on these campaigns?


The US has no VAT tax we would not stand for that kind of nonsense.

What about sales tax?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bills on September 03, 2015, 06:33:28 pm

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on September 03, 2015, 06:22:20 pm

Quote from: bills on September 03, 2015, 06:19:43 pm

 Anyone in the US now the VAT rates charged on these campaigns?


The US has no VAT tax we would not stand for that kind of nonsense.

What about sales tax?

Yes most states have sales tax 3-10% but let us not take this thread off topic.
If you would like to discuss this start another thread or take it to a pm.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 03, 2015, 06:46:17 pm

Back to Batteriser's campaign timeline.... We have this on their page:

(https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1437794783/bgvlro6fznyycllaengt.png)

We are into the "Summer - Launch IndieGogo, Production Starts" and "Fall - Ship to Backers". I would say that if there was any credible shred of evidence that this device lived up to the misleading and conflicting statements of "8x more, 80% more" and "the snail that escaped after 25+1 days" claims, we would have seen Batteriser showing us final production-ready units by now and final schematics. If they are patented, what do they have to lose? If they are the only ones who know how to miniaturize it, or have a production secret for making them, they don't even have to share that. A simple schematic using large-scale components breadboard prototyping would do.

Now I've been looking into the PWM boost circuits (thanks for the wonderful links to the "Post Apocalyptic Inventor" videos - very good!) and there is always a capacitor across the circuit (usually after the diode). I don't see any evidence of that in the Batteriser schematic.

I can see how they could get a PWM generator, a tiny inductor and diode in there. Perhaps the PWM generator is regulated by the remaining voltage of the battery so that the duty cycle creates greater boost as the voltage drops more and more on the battery, so it tried to keep the voltage regulated to 1.5V constant. Otherwise, keeping a steady PWM duty cycle would result in greater boosting when the voltage is 1.5V than when it has dropped down to 0.5V, no? I don't remember, did Batteriser claim to keep working on the battery until it gets down to 0.5V?

Anyways, does this circuit not require a capacitor to work?

(http://res.cloudinary.com/engineering-com/image/upload/w_640,h_640,c_limit/BatteryDiagram_vc7zbo.jpg)


Oh and I found this interesting page covering a boost chip from MicroChip and the sizing of the various component values:

http://www.electronicproducts.com/Analog_Mixed_Signal_ICs/SoCs_ASICs_ASSPs_MEMS/Simplifying_efficient_solid-state_backlight_driver_design.aspx (http://www.electronicproducts.com/Analog_Mixed_Signal_ICs/SoCs_ASICs_ASSPs_MEMS/Simplifying_efficient_solid-state_backlight_driver_design.aspx)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 03, 2015, 07:05:41 pm

One doesn't push out getting $300k  for another 30 days because things are going well - particularly when the holiday season is nearly lost.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 03, 2015, 07:34:43 pm

I finally found the patent PDF complete with the schematics and it does indeed show a capacitor. Here is the full patent PDF:

http://images3.freshpatents.com/pdf/US20150056476A1.pdf (http://images3.freshpatents.com/pdf/US20150056476A1.pdf)

I would attach it here but it is bigger than the size limit.

Here is the page you can see it as well:

http://www.freshpatents.com/-dt20150226ptan20150056476.php (http://www.freshpatents.com/-dt20150226ptan20150056476.php)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 03, 2015, 07:35:03 pm

Quote from: edy on September 03, 2015, 06:46:17 pm

Back to Batteriser's campaign timeline.... We have this on their page:

(https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1437794783/bgvlro6fznyycllaengt.png)

Claiming 500 patents, means 1 patent per month for over 40 years in a row on average. Say his first patent at age 20, then he'd be 60yrs old now, sounds reasonable. This also means that during idea-design-patents-phase Mr. Roohparvar about 50 new patents. I'm jealous of his brilliant brain, if I only had half of his brain to start with.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on September 03, 2015, 07:40:18 pm

Let's assume he really holds 500 patents, all of which have a contribution from Roohparvar. In academia, there are plenty of professors who will publish articles upon articles just based on one project. They just take bits and pieces and publish them as opposed to other professors who publish an entire project at once. What's stopping Roohparvar from doing the same with patents, i.e., patenting bits and pieces of a larger system?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 03, 2015, 07:51:22 pm

Quote from: tree on September 03, 2015, 07:40:18 pm

Let's assume he really holds 500 patents, all of which have a contribution from Roohparvar. In academia, there are plenty of professors who will publish articles upon articles just based on one project. They just take bits and pieces and publish them as opposed to other professors who publish an entire project at once. What's stopping Roohparvar from doing the same with patents, i.e., patenting bits and pieces of a larger system?

Not all patents are for brilliant, world-changing ideas. Patents can be for really stupid, obvious things. Really. Some of them are beyond belief.

The only real obstacles to holding lots of patents are willpower and money. Keep submitting junk to the patent office, some of it will stick.

I'm sure a google search for "frankie roohparvar patents" will be enlightening.

(And I wonder how many of those patents will have several names on them, not just his...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 03, 2015, 07:53:17 pm

Have you actually read some of these patents? I read a few. Most of them are not single author, and frankly, consist of "chuck it at the wall and see if it will stick" claims of possible things one could do. Micron was trying to patent every possible way to use its products. That is not really indicative of unique inventions brought to fruition.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on September 03, 2015, 07:55:37 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 03, 2015, 07:51:22 pm

Quote from: tree on September 03, 2015, 07:40:18 pm

Let's assume he really holds 500 patents, all of which have a contribution from Roohparvar. In academia, there are plenty of professors who will publish articles upon articles just based on one project. They just take bits and pieces and publish them as opposed to other professors who publish an entire project at once. What's stopping Roohparvar from doing the same with patents, i.e., patenting bits and pieces of a larger system?

Not all patents are for brilliant, world-changing ideas. Patents can be for really stupid, obvious things. Really. Some of them are beyond belief.

The only real obstacles to holding lots of patents are willpower and money. Keep submitting junk to the patent office, some of it will stick.

I'm sure a google search for "frankie roohparvar patents" will be enlightening.

(And I wonder how many of those patents will have several names on them, not just his...)

First patents that popped up were for memory related systems and of course others' names were on them. Based on that technical video batteriser released and the technical language in these patents, I seriously doubt he actually "invented" anything.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 03, 2015, 07:58:08 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 03, 2015, 07:53:17 pm

Have you actually read some of these patents? I read a few. Most of them are not single author, and frankly, consist of "chuck it at the wall and see if it will stick" claims of possible things one could do. Micron was trying to patent every possible way to use its products. That is not really indicative of unique inventions brought to fruition.

You can see most of them here:

http://patents.justia.com/inventor/frankie-f-roohparvar (http://patents.justia.com/inventor/frankie-f-roohparvar)

If only there was a way to simply grab only the "title" of the patents and make a brief list. A lot of it has to do with memory access, writing and reading. Most of bits and pieces, which I assume is easier to defend in court than a whole large patent. With the right system in place, you can become a "patent-making machine" once you know the process. He was part of a team for most patents. Also, if you are the CEO or COO of a company, I assume your name goes on all the patents as a matter of business because your company owns part of the patent for funding it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on September 03, 2015, 07:59:31 pm

Quote from: edy on September 03, 2015, 07:58:08 pm

Most of bits and pieces, which I assume is easier to defend in court than a whole large patent.

My original point!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on September 03, 2015, 07:59:45 pm

There are over 600 patents with his name, starting from 1995, so that means one patent every two weeks.

A human patent machine is not the same as producing an end product: everyone has ideas, but not many people see any of those ideas through to real, worthwhile marketable products.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 03, 2015, 08:04:48 pm

Quote from: Howardlong on September 03, 2015, 07:59:45 pm

There are over 600 patents with his name, starting from 1995, so that means one patent every two weeks.

A human patent machine is not the same as producing an end product: everyone has ideas, but not many people see any of those ideas through to real, worthwhile marketable products.

Let's see... 2015 - 1995 = 20 years = 52 weeks/year x 20 years = 1040 weeks.
1040 weeks / 600 patents = 1.7333 weeks/patent.
7 days/week * 1.7333 weeks/patent = 12.1333 days per patent.

That's incredible!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 03, 2015, 08:06:19 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 03, 2015, 07:53:17 pm

Have you actually read some of these patents? I read a few. Most of them are not single author, and frankly, consist of "chuck it at the wall and see if it will stick" claims of possible things one could do. Micron was trying to patent every possible way to use its products. That is not really indicative of unique inventions brought to fruition.

Here's a list: http://patents.justia.com/inventor/frankie-roohparvar (http://patents.justia.com/inventor/frankie-roohparvar)

Looks like he used to work at Micron. Most (all?) of them are variations on ways to access memory devices.

Here's a random example: "If a memory block in a flash memory device is found to have a defect, a memory block quality indication is generated in response to the type of memory defect. This indication is stored in the memory device. In one embodiment, the quality indication is stored in a predetermined location of the defective memory block."

Around here that level of problem solving is just "what I did today". Nothing special.

If you work at Micron it gets patented (...and most other big companies as well, I'm not judging Micron)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on September 03, 2015, 08:07:55 pm

Quote from: edy on September 03, 2015, 08:04:48 pm

Let's see... 2015 - 1995 = 20 years = 52 weeks/year x 20 years = 1040 weeks.
1040 weeks / 600 patents = 1.7333 weeks/patent.
7 days/week * 1.7333 weeks/patent = 12.1333 days per patent.

That's incredible!

thats corporate, IBM spams over 20 patents per day

Quote from: Fungus on September 03, 2015, 08:06:19 pm

Around here that level of problem solving is just "what I did today". Nothing special.

this!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 03, 2015, 08:09:08 pm

I think he's trying to compete with Dr. Nakamatsu:

http://www.tofugu.com/2011/04/20/inventor-nakamats/ (http://www.tofugu.com/2011/04/20/inventor-nakamats/)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshiro_Nakamatsu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshiro_Nakamatsu)

(http://www.tofugu.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/nakamats.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 03, 2015, 08:10:06 pm

Quote from: edy on September 03, 2015, 08:04:48 pm

7 days/week * 1.7333 weeks/patent = 12.1333 days per patent.

It takes longer than that between announcing the announcement of the great news and the actual publishing of the great news  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 03, 2015, 08:14:08 pm

Somebody better notify Wikipedia.... Frankie Roohparvar is NOT on the list of the world's most prolific inventors:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prolific_inventors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prolific_inventors)


Should he not be up there? Or do they list only individual patent holders and not include any that contain more than one name or a company as holding the patent?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on September 03, 2015, 08:15:35 pm

Quote from: tree on September 03, 2015, 07:40:18 pm

Let's assume he really holds 500 patents, all of which have a contribution from Roohparvar. In academia, there are plenty of professors who will publish articles upon articles just based on one project. They just take bits and pieces and publish them as opposed to other professors who publish an entire project at once. What's stopping Roohparvar from doing the same with patents, i.e., patenting bits and pieces of a larger system?

Nothing except money.  Since it costs quite a lot of money to push a patent through the system, generally you will want to do just the opposite:  made your patent as BROAD as possible, and therefore more valuable.  There is really no prize for largest number of patents (despite the fact that the company I used to work for, IBM, repeatedly touted their leadership in annual number of patents issued.  But at IBM, I can tell you that the IP lawyers were not trying to intentionally break up inventions into dozens of different patents.  On the contrary, the lawyers would get you to expand your claims as much as possible to cover every foreseeable application space the single patent would cover.

The other issue with Frankie's patents, as others have theorized, is that he simply attached his name to patents where the inventions were actually his underlings.  While it's certainly possible he did this, it is also very illegal.  Every inventor listed on a patent must have contributed some novel intellectual property to the invention.  IBM was/is very serious about this as well.  During the review process, each inventor is required to describe their specific contribution.

I am SURE that not all companies operate like this.  And it would be extremely difficult to prove after the fact, but I believe finding inventors listed on patents that did not actually contribute to the invention would be a valid reason to nullify the patent.  So it's a very risky way to do business.  CEO's that add their name to the patent without actually contributing to it are asking for trouble.

Now I do have several friends that do indeed have 100's of patents legitimately amassed over the years, with the strict requirements I listed above.  They do have a process they use.  In the most successful case, the guy held a weekly breakfast meeting where we all sat around and brainstormed ideas.  Usually there were 10-15 of us.  Sometimes we would hit upon an idea that seemed patentable and 2-3 guys would develop the idea and meet separately.  The leader would make sure he attended all these separate meetings and he would generally contribute one small nugget towards the invention so he could get his name on it.  In this way he kept his patent pipeline full with 2-3 patents applications a month (and after so many patents, he was an expert in determining whether something was patentable or not and how to write it up).  He did have to work hard...he did most of the writeups on his own time in the evenings and he spends a fair amount of time developing these ideas.  Because IBM valued their number of patents issued, they do allow (even expect) inventors such as him to spend 10-25% of their time developing patentable ideas.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 03, 2015, 08:16:26 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 03, 2015, 08:06:19 pm

Around here that level of problem solving is just "what I did today". Nothing special.

Another example:
https://www.google.com/patents/US5526364 (https://www.google.com/patents/US5526364)

Quote

A circuit for generating test-mode signals for memory which uses both hardware and software protection schemes. The circuit enters a test code by receiving a high voltage at two terminals. The high voltage must remain on at least one of the terminals during the test code process. Otherwise, the circuit is reset.

I don't get it how the German patent got granted. Law requires a minimal level of invention, not just some common practice problem solving.
 :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 03, 2015, 08:22:45 pm

I don't think the Patent System today works anything like it did in the past.

Patents are SO complex and technical now, and there are so many that get pushed through the pipeline, that reviewers likely skim through them and grant many that shouldn't be. The patent system obviously wants to keep the revenue stream flowing, and so it works more like a "library system" where ideas get time-stamped. When and if there is ever a violation found, a lawsuit occurs or whatever, the lawyers pour through and that's when the actual patent infringement and nitty-gritty technicalities get brought out and discussed. I highly doubt that a patent clerk will have the time or energy or knowledge to carry out the amount of very technically detailed work needed to decide if a patent should even be patented. They are probably just making sure it follows a certain "format" and that the money is paid for filing, and there are no obvious major holes.

http://www.wired.com/2015/01/fixing-broken-patent-system/ (http://www.wired.com/2015/01/fixing-broken-patent-system/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 03, 2015, 08:45:05 pm

Quote from: edy on September 03, 2015, 08:14:08 pm

Somebody better notify Wikipedia.... Frankie Roohparvar is NOT on the list of the world's most prolific inventors:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prolific_inventors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prolific_inventors)

There's people on there with less than 1000 patents? Jeez.

I'm sure I could be on that list if I'd had a team of patent lawyers following me around for the last 30 years. I'm sure I have half a dozen patentable ideas a week. If just one in three of them get past the examiners then 30*52*2=3120

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 03, 2015, 09:08:07 pm

Quote from: edy on September 03, 2015, 07:58:08 pm

Also, if you are the CEO or COO of a company, I assume your name goes on all the patents as a matter of business because your company owns part of the patent for funding it.

That's exactly the point, and it was exactly what I though the first time I saw the video where he try to explain how smart he is by claming "My name is on 500+ patents"

You were CEO on the company that claimed those patents, it's nearly impossible in such big company (like micron) that the CEO have time to do any research.

Edit: is that me or their own patent show that the batteriser will nearly halves the battery life

It's "FIG 7: shows actual measurements that illustrate the advantages of the various embodiments."
For me it does not display what the title says, but I'm always wrong so.. Go figure..

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on September 03, 2015, 09:22:25 pm

Quote from: edy on September 03, 2015, 08:22:45 pm

I don't think the Patent System today works anything like it did in the past.

Patents are SO complex and technical now, and there are so many that get pushed through the pipeline, that reviewers likely skim through them and grant many that shouldn't be. The patent system obviously wants to keep the revenue stream flowing, and so it works more like a "library system" where ideas get time-stamped. When and if there is ever a violation found, a lawsuit occurs or whatever, the lawyers pour through and that's when the actual patent infringement and nitty-gritty technicalities get brought out and discussed. I highly doubt that a patent clerk will have the time or energy or knowledge to carry out the amount of very technically detailed work needed to decide if a patent should even be patented. They are probably just making sure it follows a certain "format" and that the money is paid for filing, and there are no obvious major holes.

http://www.wired.com/2015/01/fixing-broken-patent-system/ (http://www.wired.com/2015/01/fixing-broken-patent-system/)

Yes, all patent applications are granted unless there's something obviously wrong with them. Like over unity devices (but over unity devices get patented every now and then anyway). According to patent proponents that's fine though. If there is something wrong with a patent you should challenge it in court and the court will determine if it is valid or not...

One of the many problems with this is that most courts are nationalistic and appear to be biased toward domestic companies. But there are other problems as well, such as small companies not having the resources to get into court fights for example (that's why patent trolls are so successful I suppose).

Patents are supposed to protect the small inventor from having his invention stolen by the big giants. In practice the giants patent everything they can think of and thereby create a very difficult barrier for newcomers to enter an existing market niche. Want to develop a new mobile phone? Prepare to licence a hundred patents or so first, or challenge the big companies patents in court...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on September 03, 2015, 09:44:56 pm

Quote from: edy on September 03, 2015, 03:51:56 pm

Quote

Nope. People should be protected against false claims and snake-oil products.
(And yes, there are laws...)

Yes true. Unfortunately we are not in the position here on EEVBlog to be the police. I don't think Dave wants to necessarily police the entire world of crappy electronics products either.

I see it!

Dave L. Jones: International General Director of International Electronics Products Police.

I would see too much guilty people out there. The prisons would be intensive reeducation camps to learn EE properly and not be released until they master it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on September 03, 2015, 09:46:20 pm

Quote from: Circuiteromalaguito on September 03, 2015, 09:44:56 pm

I see it!

Dave L. Jones: International General Director of International Electronics Products Police.

I would see too much guilty people out there. The prisons would be intensive reeducation camps to learn EE properly and not be released until they master it.

Reeducation camps, ehh?

I like it!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on September 03, 2015, 09:57:27 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 03, 2015, 09:08:07 pm

Edit: is that me or their own patent show that the batteriser will nearly halves the battery life

It's "FIG 7: shows actual measurements that illustrate the advantages of the various embodiments."
For me it does not display what the title says, but I'm always wrong so.. Go figure..

No.  They are simply not showing the "unregulated" case (although they do list the times where the voltage dropped below 1.39V and 1.35V--the voltage they claim that many devices stop working at at the very beginning of their patent (strange that they felt the need to give this business justification--that's really not necessary for the patent)

Quote

[0003] Some electronic equipment that use disposable batteries, such as AA batteries, are designed to stop operating when the battery voltage drops by 10% or so. That means when the voltage of an AA battery drops to about 1.4V or 1.35V, the battery is no longer useable by the equipment and has to be replaced with a fresh battery.

From the detailed description of Fig 7:

Quote

The amount of time it takes for the batteries to reach 1.39V, which is where a lot of electronic equipment stop operating, are listed.

If you were to draw a line from V=1.39V down to the X-axis you would get the times listed in the table at the bottom.

What's really interesting to me is that while they have repeatedly claimed that the Batteriser will function at a terminal voltage of 0.5V (maybe I'm just not remembering it correctly), Fig 7 clearly shows that at least with whatever prototype they used for this data, that it only functioned down to about 1.3V or so.. Huh?  Wow!

Quote

The Panasonic battery when used in conjunction with a regulator, according to embodiments of the invention, took 27.9 hours before it stopped providing 1.5V, and the Sony battery when used with a regulator took 32 hours before its stopped providing 1.5V.

Well, I guess it could continue to "function", just not provide 1.5V, but strange that the curves they showed in Fig 7 dropped to 0V once it reached that threshold.  If I take that literally, it means the Batteriser would actually shut off when it reached this point, and devices that are well-designed that do work down to 1.1 or 1.0V would in fact have shorter lifetimes (is that what you were getting at maybe?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 03, 2015, 10:32:49 pm

Yes that's basically my point

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 03, 2015, 10:38:57 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=169190;image)

So in the graph above, I see the regulated voltage at 1.80 V.... last for about 30 hours on average for all 3 batteries, then cut off to 0V? And that's testing the batteries under a load that drew 50mA? Meanwhile, the other curves show voltage for the "unregulated" batteries gradually declining until about 50-60 hours? Also under the same current draw of 50mA.

According to the curves, it looks like the "Regulated" circuits only last half as long. Sure they provide a stable 1.8 V for the entire duration, at 50mA (which is not much of a current draw either) and then die abruptly. The other curves drop down to about 1.0V at about 50 hours and then start to die abruptly.

I really don't understand the "table" under the graph showing 1.39V, 1.35V, Regulated, Multiple/1.4 and Multiple/1.35 for the 3 batteries. Can anyone explain what those numbers mean? It would have been nice if they used units somewhere in the table. Are they looking at time? Is that in hours? And what does "3 times" mean, an average? And what is "multiple" and 1.4 and 1.35?  :-//

If I were to guess.... The key "trick" to their argument lies in that the "CUTOFF" voltage used for 1.35V let's say, you can see the unregulated curves for the normal batteries at 50mA current draw cross below the 1.35v threshold at about 15 hours. Meanwhile, the "regulated" lines continue until about 30 hours. So you can argue that the regulated batteries last 2x longer if your device cutoff was 1.35v. But if you made your threshold by drawing a horizontal line across the graph at 1.1V, you would have closer to 50 hours out of each battery at 50mA.

I think all the Batteriser does is just make your device run like it has brand new batteries, but for a shorter time. Great if you want nice bright flashlights for half the time. Yes, a bright flashlight when you need it, is better than a dim flashlight. An electric battery-powered toothbrush running at 100% is much better than one that is slowly dying and barely moving. In these situations, you want OPTIMAL VOLTAGE because the product you are using works much better for your needs at that moment.

You usually don't use a flashlight all the time. It sits in the closet and toothbrush sits in the bathroom most of the day. You just want it to turn on, work like it's got BRAND NEW batteries for those 2-3 minutes that you need it, and then turn it off. So even though the batteries may actually work for FEWER hours in those devices, it has more utility for you to be able to have optimal performance for those fewer hours than have crappy performance for many more hours.

Imagine a battery-operated electric shaver. I'd rather have one that runs fast and cuts efficiently and does the job quickly, then string it along (even though the motor will still run) and have it rip out my hairs slowly and painfully and make the experience longer. I think that is what the Batteriser may be going for, and only in a very specific set of devices that have this type of usage behaviour where optimal voltage is required for optimal utility, and where lower voltages will still allow the device to run but the usefulness quickly diminishes. However, the Batteriser marketing goes completely against this notion, but if they market it properly that is the only real benefit I can see.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Davey_Jonez on September 03, 2015, 10:42:40 pm

morons.
The device will show it can no longer display the back-light or it will shut down. That is a fail for either mode. With the their (custom) boost converter it runs almost 6X longer. UL has verified it in their lab.
Ah yes, then the comeback is UL is paid so they do what you want. Really, are you all that retarded. They are in business to make money, they charge to test a product. I do not know of any labs that test a company product for free. You cannot buy the result.
I have dealt with UL many times over the course of my career in Silicon Valley. They are very rigid in terms of reporting results.

And, genius, if you use an off the shelf boost converter you will likely see a different result. That is not their product. You may only see 2 or 3X. Keep digging. They win, you lose. Do something constructive. Like little children stomping their feet.
If you want to find bad things you will. If you want to find good things, you will. Just constantly negative. You cannot stop them. They have investors that have done due diligence. Try an incandescent flashlight. Will it stay brighter longer with a highly efficient boost converter? very simple. try it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 03, 2015, 10:53:52 pm

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 03, 2015, 10:42:40 pm

morons.
The device will show it can no longer display the back-light or it will shut down. That is a fail for either mode. With the their (custom) boost converter it runs almost 6X longer. UL has verified it in their lab.
Ah yes, then the comeback is UL is paid so they do what you want. Really, are you all that retarded. They are in business to make money, they charge to test a product. I do not know of any labs that test a company product for free. You cannot buy the result.
I have dealt with UL many times over the course of my career in Silicon Valley. They are very rigid in terms of reporting results.

And, genius, if you use an off the shelf boost converter you will likely see a different result. That is not their product. You may only see 2 or 3X. Keep digging. They win, you lose. Do something constructive. Like little children stomping their feet.
If you want to find bad things you will. If you want to find good things, you will. Just constantly negative. You cannot stop them. They have investors that have done due diligence. Try an incandescent flashlight. Will it stay brighter longer with a highly efficient boost converter? very simple. try it.

That is the whole point, isn't it. The Batteriser extends "optimal" voltage for longer than a regular battery, but then it will abruptly cut off. A regular battery will slowly decay and run sub-optimal for a much longer time. The use-case scenario then becomes, which do you prefer?

Like the flashlight, electric battery toothbrush and battery-shaver examples. Nobody wants a slowly working shaver or toothbrush. Nobody wants a dim flashlight, even if it will last many more hours. It is more of an "all or nothing" situation for the device to be useful to the user.

However, the GPS will continue to function WITHOUT a backlight for many hours. Users in the forum have already confirmed that. The question is, if you absolute positively MUST have that backlight work (say you are playing Golf in the dark) then the Batteriser will win in that situation.... while someone else who doesn't have the Batteriser, will have a GPS last much longer but there would be no backlight, so you wouldn't be able to use that GPS very well.

At the end of the day, regardless of whether we are right or wrong about all of this, Batteriser and it's fans have done nothing to increase their credibility to the Electronic Engineer community with any real science. Videos, theories, patents, all of it is being picked apart by multiple people from multiple continents who all studied in Universities and work in the profession. There is no collusion going on here. We are discussing it objectively and backing our arguments with science and experiment.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 03, 2015, 10:54:02 pm

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 03, 2015, 10:42:40 pm

morons.
The device will show it can no longer display the back-light or it will shut down. That is a fail for either mode. With the their (custom) boost converter it runs almost 6X longer. UL has verified it in their lab.

Feel free to produce the report with the testing conditions.  So far, we've seen nothing meaningful out of Batteroo to support its (your?) claims.  If you paid UL for a test, there is an accompanying test report. 

While you're at it, produce this "FCC Certification" that is being alleged and was obtained in less than 1 week. 

Quote

Try an incandescent flashlight. Will it stay brighter longer with a highly efficient boost converter? very simple. try it.

The flashlight test is a later claim.  The original claim is that the Batteriser would make all things powered by alkalines last 800% longer.  Now, you have had to modify the claim, and that claim is, that the flashlight operates for a much shorter time with the Batteriser, but it's better when it does. 

The claims keep shifting. 

Then there is the claim of devices leaving 80% of the charge left in the batteries when reporting 0% charge remaining.  You cite the Apple wireless keyboard and trackpad.  Both claims are demonstrably false.  Yet, you still keep making these claims. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on September 03, 2015, 10:58:20 pm

In the patent fig 11-13 they show (theoretical) operation of their regulator down to 0.8V.

Those three diagrams have x-axis in minutes, and the battery voltage reaches 0.8V after 45-52 min which (I think) roughly correspond to a 1.5A load for a AA battery.

Fig 13 show three stages of regulation/boosting:
1st a bypass phase when the battery voltage is over 1.45V.
2nd a phase where the regulator voltage ramps down from 1.5V to 1.35V as the battery’s voltage is falling from 1.45V to 1.0V.
3rd a constant voltage phase where the regulator outputs 1.35V until the battery drops below 0.8V.

In their patent claims they seem to “only” claim operation down to 70% of initial battery voltage, or about 1.05V.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on September 03, 2015, 11:07:31 pm

Quote from: edy on September 03, 2015, 10:38:57 pm

I really don't understand the "table" under the graph showing 1.39V, 1.35V, Regulated, Multiple/1.4 and Multiple/1.35 for the 3 batteries. Can anyone explain what those numbers mean? It would have been nice if they used units somewhere in the table. Are they looking at time? Is that in hours? And what does "3 times" mean, an average? And what is "multiple" and 1.4 and 1.35?  :-//

Let's pick one row as an example (Panasonic -- solid line).

The first column of the table describes the time at which the unregulated voltage falls below 1.39V (at which point the patent claims that "some" devices will cut-out and fail).  Follow the unregulated solid line to 1.39V, draw a line down to the X-axis:  6.3 hours.  Second column is the same, except they assume cut-out at 1.35V.  Third column is just the time at which the regulated solid line drops from 1.8V to 0V (27.9 hours).  Fourth column (they've switched to 1.4V, but they probably mean 1.39V) is just column 3 divided by column 1, indicating how many times longer the battery lasts with the regulator than without (assuming 1.39/1.4V cut-out).  Same for column 5 except it's column 3 divided by column 2.

Maybe we should do them a favor and include columns for more common cut-out voltages of 1.1V and 1.0V.  The "multiple" factors I get are 1.1V: 0.61 and 10V: 0.56

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 03, 2015, 11:08:10 pm

Quote from: jippie on September 03, 2015, 04:40:04 pm

Quote from: firewalker on September 03, 2015, 02:35:27 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/bINeSnP.png)

What is the use of announcing that you will be announcing "great news" some time soon? If you know you have "great news", why not just share it? This isn't the first time they announce the announcement of some time soon great news.

They need to fabricate the great news first... it's just taking them a bit longer to make something up that sounds half-plausible. :-)

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 03, 2015, 10:42:40 pm

morons.

I see we finally have the "Batteroo Fan Page" on this blog. Welcome :-) You might learn a thing or two... feel free to report that back to Batteroo Inc. Just keep it civil.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 03, 2015, 11:08:24 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 03, 2015, 10:54:02 pm

The flashlight test is a later claim.  The original claim is that the Batteriser would make all things powered by alkalines last 800% longer.  Now, you have had to modify the claim, and that claim is, that the flashlight operates for a much shorter time with the Batteriser, but it's better when it does. 

The claims keep shifting. 

Then there is the claim of devices leaving 80% of the charge left in the batteries when reporting 0% charge remaining.  You cite the Apple wireless keyboard and trackpad.  Both claims are demonstrably false.  Yet, you still keep making these claims.

Exactly. I see it now... The Batteriser marketing team went on a drug-induced hallucinogenic hyperbole-fest when they were coming up with how great it was. Where did they get those numbers? How did it go from 800% to 80% to 8x to 5x, and so on? I will never know.

But what seems to be happening here is NOTHING of the sort of claims that Batteriser was misleading backers with up to and continuing on with this IndieGogo campaign. Not only is the claim shifting, it was already schizophrenic from the time it started? Nobody has a clue what is actually being claimed, only that it is grossly overstated.

I get it now. The Batteriser saves batteries because people throw them out when their flashlight goes dim. A dim flashlight is useless, even if it will run dim for another 10 hours. I get it. Your flashlight is only bright for 2 hours, and then the next 10 hours it is just not going to be good enough. Throw in a Batteriser and you will get 6 hours of bright light, and then it will die completely to darkness. A miracle! You have used your battery 3x longer than otherwise, since a person would have chucked the batteries away after only 2 hours otherwise.

That scenario (and other specific use-cases) need to be spelled out clearly to people who are buying this product. Not a generalized statement that applies to all devices, and all situations.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on September 03, 2015, 11:18:37 pm

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 03, 2015, 10:42:40 pm

morons.
The device will show it can no longer display the back-light or it will shut down. That is a fail for either mode. With the their (custom) boost converter it runs almost 6X longer. UL has verified it in their lab.
Ah yes, then the comeback is UL is paid so they do what you want. Really, are you all that retarded. They are in business to make money, they charge to test a product. I do not know of any labs that test a company product for free. You cannot buy the result.
I have dealt with UL many times over the course of my career in Silicon Valley. They are very rigid in terms of reporting results.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UL_(safety_organization) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UL_(safety_organization))

UL is a safety organization to test your product to make sure it doesn't blow up. They don't test its performance. Sure, they'll stress test the thing and let it do what it was designed to do, but they don't care about logging battery data and timing it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on September 03, 2015, 11:24:21 pm

Please correct me if I am wrong but based on what I have read and for your average Joe in the street are they claiming that Joe can put batteries in his flashlight and run it for a number of hours until it dims, lets say 5 hours and then add a sleeve and get another 35 hours or thereabouts usable running time out of those already discharged batteries, I find it extraordinary and difficult to comprehend regardless of the smarts involved, and perhaps these people may as well.

https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/consumer-guarantees (https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/consumer-guarantees)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 03, 2015, 11:33:30 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 03, 2015, 11:24:21 pm

Please correct me if I am wrong but based on what I have read and for your average Joe in the street are they claiming that Joe can put batteries in his flashlight and run it for a number of hours until it dims, lets say 5 hours and then add a sleeve and get another 35 hours or thereabouts usable running time out of those already discharged batteries, I find it extraordinary and difficult to comprehend regardless of the smarts involved, and perhaps these people may as well.

https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/consumer-guarantees (https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/consumer-guarantees)

It's all "wishy-washy".... What is considered "dim"? What is the average Joe going to do? What do they expect from the performance of their flashlight? I can see the average Joe turning on their flashlight one day and thinking "crap it is too dim for me to use for what I need", so they slap on the Batteriser sleeves and get maybe another 10 minutes out of the batteries before they die completely. So the average Joe thinks "wow I just sucked more juice out of my dim batteries" and thinks the Batterisers were a savior.

They are not going to get another 35 hours... The marketing B.S. makes it sound like that, but they won't. But it will get them out of a jam until they get a fresh pair of batteries, and that may be enough psychological motivation to make people think these are so great, when they are not.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 11:40:51 pm

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 03, 2015, 10:42:40 pm

morons.
The device will show it can no longer display the back-light or it will shut down. That is a fail for either mode.

Not, it's not, it's how the product is designed to operate!
When Alkaline battery mode is selected the firmware purposely puts up that message at a certain battery voltage and switches off the bakclight, because the product is not optimally designed for Alklalines.

Quote

With the their (custom) boost converter it runs almost 6X longer. UL has verified it in their lab.

It was only about a month ago that it is claimed Batteriser set up this GPS test due to customer feedback of what tests they like to see. Do you really expect us to believe that UL have tested the product on this GPS and have provided a report within that one month?

Quote

And, genius, if you use an off the shelf boost converter you will likely see a different result. That is not their product. You may only see 2 or 3X.

If Batterisers performance is so leading edge, why have they not publish the efficiency performance envelope curve to prove it? That would shut everyone up.

Quote

Keep digging. They win, you lose. Do something constructive. Like little children stomping their feet.

So who are you exactly? Do you work for Batteriser?

Quote

Try an incandescent flashlight. Will it stay brighter longer with a highly efficient boost converter? very simple. try it.

LOL. Who uses an incandescent light bulb torch any more  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 03, 2015, 11:40:53 pm

Surely I'm not the only one who finds it hillarious that there are supposed "fans" of a cheapo consumer electronics product that isn't even available?

Yes, you see fan site and fan videos for sports teams, bands, films etc, but unreleased electronics products?  Aye, right! 😂😂😂

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 11:41:57 pm

Quote from: Delta on September 03, 2015, 11:40:53 pm

Surely I'm not the only one who finds it hillarious that there are supposed "fans" of a cheapo consumer electronics product that isn't even available?
Yes, you see fan site and fan videos for sports teams, bands, films etc, but unreleased electronics products?  Aye, right! 😂😂😂

That's because they are setup by the marketing companies. It's a common technique called Astroturfing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 11:44:33 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 03, 2015, 11:24:21 pm

Please correct me if I am wrong but based on what I have read and for your average Joe in the street are they claiming that Joe can put batteries in his flashlight and run it for a number of hours until it dims, lets say 5 hours and then add a sleeve and get another 35 hours or thereabouts usable running time out of those already discharged batteries, I find it extraordinary and difficult to comprehend regardless of the smarts involved, and perhaps these people may as well.

It seems like Batteriser are backing themselves into a corner where the only decent usage case they find is an old school incandescent flashlight.  :palm:
Where are the tests on the real products they claimed? The remote controls, the game controllers, etc. They can't even get the GPS test right, they completely goofed that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 03, 2015, 11:48:39 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 11:44:33 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 03, 2015, 11:24:21 pm

Please correct me if I am wrong but based on what I have read and for your average Joe in the street are they claiming that Joe can put batteries in his flashlight and run it for a number of hours until it dims, lets say 5 hours and then add a sleeve and get another 35 hours or thereabouts usable running time out of those already discharged batteries, I find it extraordinary and difficult to comprehend regardless of the smarts involved, and perhaps these people may as well.

It seems like Batteriser are backing themselves into a corner where the only decent usage case they find is an old school incandescent flashlight.  :palm:
Where are the tests on the real products they claimed? The remote controls, the game controllers, etc. They can't even get the GPS test right, they completely goofed that.

It may work in those cheap battery-powered throw-away kids toothbrushes. Usually the motor keeps working but slugging along for way too long but parents get lazy or forget to replace the batteries, they just keep using them. But yeah, very limited usage and the claims are totally misleading and exaggerated. Good observation... who would actually be a "fan" of an unreleased product unless they are Batteroo or someone associated with them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 03, 2015, 11:51:52 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 11:41:57 pm

Quote from: Delta on September 03, 2015, 11:40:53 pm

Surely I'm not the only one who finds it hillarious that there are supposed "fans" of a cheapo consumer electronics product that isn't even available?
Yes, you see fan site and fan videos for sports teams, bands, films etc, but unreleased electronics products?  Aye, right! 😂😂😂

That's because they are setup by the marketing companies. It's a common technique called Astroturfing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing

Aye, I'm familiar with astroturfing, I was more pointing out how monumentally stupid they are to expect people to believe that they have "fans"!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 03, 2015, 11:53:12 pm

I have a better idea for Batteriser to market....

Make a battery with a beeper and bluetooth module in it, so you can insert it into your TV remote control. When you lose the remote and can't find it, use your PHONE to connect to it and activate the beeper so you can hear where it is and find it.

Quick... better patent that!  :scared:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MikeW on September 03, 2015, 11:56:38 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 11:40:51 pm

Quote

Try an incandescent flashlight. Will it stay brighter longer with a highly efficient boost converter? very simple. try it.

LOL. Who uses an incandescent light bulb torch any more  :-DD

Quite a lot of people. Not to say I am in any way trying to help batteriser here but just saying there are a huge number of people behind the technogoly curve.

A lot of people on this forum seem to think their knowledge is common knowledge and it's really not the case.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 04, 2015, 12:06:39 am

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 03, 2015, 10:42:40 pm

With the their (custom) boost converter it runs almost 6X longer. UL has verified it in their lab.

Would be interesting to see the report. I've helped developing a product which was UL tested and they didn't care about functionality, as others here noted, they only test that it doesn't burn the house down if there is a short circuit etc. and they are good at it. The product required some rework because of theoretical problems with a coin cell which was in the product. What does the AA-Batteriser do, if it gets shorted?

Quote

Try an incandescent flashlight. Will it stay brighter longer with a highly efficient boost converter? very simple. try it.

An incandescent flashlight wouldn't be usable as long with a boost converter than without one. Better usable for an hour and at the end you can see that it gets darker, than usable for half an hour and suddenly it turns off.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on September 04, 2015, 12:08:58 am

I think that I will stick with my existing ridiculous battery back from the dead gadget which was supposed to recharge primary carbon batteries and the like, it never worked as promoted but recently I found that it can and does work with rechargeable's.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 04, 2015, 12:25:41 am

Here's a scenario, using times taken from Energizer's E91 datasheet:
(http://i61.tinypic.com/25anjus.jpg)


I took the example of a device with a 250mA constant current discharge at 21 deg C.
With that cell, such a device would run for 7.5 hours until it was, to all intents and purposes, dead as long as it had a very low cutout voltage.


So, lets have a look at the amount of runtime you would get out of that cell if the devices low voltage cutoff was set to various levels:
(http://i61.tinypic.com/o52p75.jpg)


This is the same data, using the same 250mA constant current scenario.
If you have a device which cuts out at 1.0V, it would cut out after just over 7 hours of operation, and you would have another 22 minutes of operation potential left in the cell, if all other things were 100% efficient, say if you took the cell out of the device with the 1V cutoff at that point and put it into a new device with the same 250mA constant current draw but with a 0.6V cutoff.
If the same device with 250mA CC draw cut out at 1.1V, it would cut out at just under 6 hours of operation, and doing the same as above you could potentially gain another 1 hour and 39 minutes of use out of the cell doing the same as mentioned above.


Now, add into this scenario the inefficiencies of the boost converter, and other inefficiencies, and the gains are not that much.


So there's no way you'd gain an extra 800%, or even 80%. You might gain a few minutes here and there.
Now if you have the batteriser on the cell from when it is inserted new into the device; see their FAQ:
"Does the battery need to be “dead” before you use the Batteriser? (http://batteriser.com/faq/#collapse-144)
No, you can start using the Batteriser at any time, even a brand new battery, and you will get the benefits of extended battery life."


Then, the inefficiencies of running a boost converter add up over the entire 6 hours or so you would be running the device.


The curve for a constant power draw device follows the same pattern.


If you have a flashlight that is a simple bulb connected to a battery, which dims after a certain amount of use, using this device will give you a constant brightness output, which is great, that should be the promotional message. But the time it runs will be LESS than the original draw, because you don't get nuthin' from nuthin', and drawing a constant power from a cell and maintaining a constant voltage output, your current draw rises until either the cell gives up or the device can't handle the current draw and cuts out. It doesn't matter how efficient or small the boost converter is, it can't beat the laws of physics/thermodynamics/conservation of energy/ohm's...
In fact, in the scenario of a flashlight, because the human eye's response to light is logarithmic not linear (http://www.telescope-optics.net/eye_intensity_response.htm), you might actually get longer performance out of the unregulated flashlight in some scenarios, because of the human eye's acceptance of, and adaptability to, a lack of light vs perceived light.


Also, this shows why you can't just divide the 0.1V steps between 1.3V and 0.6V into equal portions and say that means there are 8 x 0.1V steps remaining. How much energy is contained in the 0.7-0.6V step? Zero. Same goes for the 0.8-0.7V step. Snails climbing out of wells notwithstanding.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 04, 2015, 01:54:21 am

About to start the test with some fresh duracells that I just bought (same brand they used in their video)

(http://i.imgur.com/7woORMEh.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 04, 2015, 02:00:47 am

Quote from: samgab on September 04, 2015, 12:25:41 am

This is the same data, using the same 250mA constant current scenario.
If you have a device which cuts out at 1.0V, it would cut out after just over 7 hours of operation, and you would have another 22 minutes of operation potential left in the cell, if all other things were 100% efficient, say if you took the cell out of the device with the 1V cutoff at that point and put it into a new device with the same 250mA constant current draw but with a 0.6V cutoff.
If the same device with 250mA CC draw cut out at 1.1V, it would cut out at just under 6 hours of operation, and doing the same as above you could potentially gain another 1 hour and 39 minutes of use out of the cell doing the same as mentioned above.

Now, add into this scenario the inefficiencies of the boost converter, and other inefficiencies, and the gains are not that much.

So there's no way you'd gain an extra 800%, or even 80%. You might gain a few minutes here and there.

That's been everyone's argument from day 1.
It's bleedingly obvious by inspection to anyone who knows anything about batteries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 04, 2015, 02:32:06 am

He's STILL at it!
He's just keeps the libel going  :clap:
OK, so he called himself David Parish again now, and has also claimed that "Brad Jones" is another real person.
Why then have both "David Parish" and "Brad Jones" posted the exact same comment to one of my videos?
What an absolute fruitcake!  :palm:
I can't believe Batteriser haven't shut down his channel and account.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eevblab/eevblab-13-batteriser-how-to-buy-youtube-dislikes!/?action=dlattach;attach=169218;image)

The day before he was saying this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=169220;image)

I think he needs to seek professional help.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: linux-works on September 04, 2015, 02:36:00 am

Quote from: edy on September 03, 2015, 11:53:12 pm

I have a better idea for Batteriser to market....

Make a battery with a beeper and bluetooth module in it, so you can insert it into your TV remote control. When you lose the remote and can't find it, use your PHONE to connect to it and activate the beeper so you can hear where it is and find it.

ah, so what you really want is a combination "clicker and clapper!"

lol

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 04, 2015, 02:36:54 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 04, 2015, 02:00:47 am

That's been everyone's argument from day 1.
It's bleedingly obvious by inspection to anyone who knows anything about batteries.

Yet how can it be that these high ranking executives of million and billion dollar companies who have 500+ patents under their belt and teach at University and have $1 million+ startup invested already can be so wrong? It just doesn't make sense...  :scared: I'd like to know what their motivation is, and how these brilliant businessmen and inventors have associated themselves with such an obviously fabricated media PR firm with laughable Google+ users and IndieGogo shills, and everything else that looks to be suspicious and faked. I bet you for one moment they never thought any EE would pay attention, nor would someone with a large following like Dave catch them in the act. They completely miscalculated that they would be called out to prove anything. All the most revealing videos they've made are a direct response to the criticism initiated by EEVBlog. They were not ready and their PR firm is actually terrible at guiding them through this minefield that they have sown for themselves.

Out of curiosity I tallied up how many Batterisers have been sold (see spreadsheet):

104,920 as of now

If they have 90 days to produce these, they'll need to make about close to 1200 a day working 7 days a week. If they wait for IndieGogo to get funds and it takes 30 days on a shipping container from China, they will have to make 3500 per day (in the 30 days they have). It is a huge job, and the $300k IndieGogo will dry up fast.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SundayProgrammer on September 04, 2015, 04:56:45 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 04, 2015, 01:54:21 am

About to start the test with some fresh duracells that I just bought (same brand they used in their video)

Impressive  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 04, 2015, 05:05:11 am

I'll hit the 3 hour mark in 9 minutes and the thing is still going and the backlight hasn't even dimmed yet.  It's currently at 2.63v under load.  In their video, theirs supposedly completely died before it got to the 2 hour mark.  Their graph also shows a drop in current at about 1 hr 40 min, which I'd assume is the screen dimming at 2.6v.  That means they started the test with a not-so-fresh battery considering mine is about to hit 3 hours and still hasn't dimmed yet.   :popcorn:

EDIT: I forgot to mention, agilent's benchvue software limits datalogs to 1 hour each if you have the "free" version (paid one is $200).  Those cheap bastards.  I would've been better off using the same arduino that's controlling the servo to datalog to an SD card  |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Simon on September 04, 2015, 06:02:46 am

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 03, 2015, 10:42:40 pm

morons.
The device will show it can no longer display the back-light or it will shut down. That is a fail for either mode. With the their (custom) boost converter it runs almost 6X longer. UL has verified it in their lab.
Ah yes, then the comeback is UL is paid so they do what you want. Really, are you all that retarded. They are in business to make money, they charge to test a product. I do not know of any labs that test a company product for free. You cannot buy the result.
I have dealt with UL many times over the course of my career in Silicon Valley. They are very rigid in terms of reporting results.

And, genius, if you use an off the shelf boost converter you will likely see a different result. That is not their product. You may only see 2 or 3X. Keep digging. They win, you lose. Do something constructive. Like little children stomping their feet.
If you want to find bad things you will. If you want to find good things, you will. Just constantly negative. You cannot stop them. They have investors that have done due diligence. Try an incandescent flashlight. Will it stay brighter longer with a highly efficient boost converter? very simple. try it.

UL testing is for safety and not to verify that it works as described: http://ul.com/ (http://ul.com/) anyone who understands anything about this will see a mile of that it's a scam and fast turning into downright fraud. Wony don't you go back to your rich boss and tell him he is never going to get anywhere. Well actually he may and that is why he is paying all this money to get fake articles and reviews not to mention youtube thumbs down. The device is cheap, $2.50 and will be bought in mass (he hopes) nobody is going to take him to court over $2.50 but collectively he will make a lot of money out of this fraud. These days you can't get justice over teaching material that tells lies that is governed by a government body never mind a misleading product.

Just the claim that it must work because it was UL tested is utter fraud and show batterizer and your boss for the scammer and fraudster he is. No go back and tell him we all said "Hi" oh and tell him that an oscilloscope with a calibration signal on a video at the back is not going to fool anyone, really how pathetic, in fact the most pathetic thing I have ever seen.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 04, 2015, 06:22:18 am

Well, I just hit the 4 hour mark and the screen was still max brightness as far as I could tell and the battery voltage was 2.55v under load.  Unfortunately, I have to get up for work at 5:30am and it's already 1:20 am so off I go.  (I would let it run on its own but I don't have pro version of benchvue so I have to restart datalog every hour)  I have more batteries from that same pack that I'll do a FULL run on.

But it's already completely busted.  I mean we knew that before doing any tests, but this proves it and I'll pop a video of this onto youtube once I get a full run in.  Their video showed their gps allegedly turn off BEFORE it hit the 2 hour mark.  I just hit double that and we still have about 450mv until we hit the cutoff voltage.  I smell some bullshit  :bullshit:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 04, 2015, 06:43:53 am

Quote from: Simon on September 04, 2015, 06:02:46 am

No go back and tell him we all said "Hi" oh and tell him that an oscilloscope with a calibration signal on a video at the back is not going to fool anyone, really how pathetic, in fact the most pathetic thing I have ever seen.

Right, they should have at least showed some nice lissajous figures, as you can see in old science fiction movies :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Akra on September 04, 2015, 07:14:32 am

Hello,
There is an easy way to tell if you can squeeze more juce out of a Battery.
If you know the theoretical Capacity of the Battery, you can easily tell how much juce is left.
For this reason i did a chemical analysis of a brand new DURACELL Battery.

The results are in the attached pdf file.

In short:
The Battery delivers a capacity of about 3,5Ah with a constant Load of 5mA (datasheet) und this is almost the theoretical Limit (calculated from the analysis: 3,554Ah) !
So there is nothing left you can use to deliver more Capacity (if you don't break the laws of Physics of course).

This is scientific foundamental and it doesn't matter how you measure the voltage/Capacity, what circuit you use or whatever, when your Load is about 5mA (of corse higher Loads gives us a lower capacity due to the increase of ionic resitens) you can't squeeze more juce out of the Battery then you already do with a cut-off voltage of 0,8V.

(Sry for my english, i hope there aren't too many mistakes)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on September 04, 2015, 07:31:04 am

Quote from: Akra on September 04, 2015, 07:14:32 am

Hello,
There is an easy way to tell if you can squeeze more juce out of a Battery.
If you know the theoretical Capacity of the Battery, you can easily tell how much juce is left.
For this reason i did a chemical analysis of a brand new DURACELL Battery.

The results are in the attached pdf file.

In short:
The Battery delivers a capacity of about 3,5Ah with a constant Load of 5mA (datasheet) und this is almost the theoretical Limit (calculated from the analysis: 3,554Ah) !
So there is nothing left you can use to deliver more Capacity (if you don't break the laws of Physics of course).

This is scientific foundamental and it doesn't matter how you measure the voltage/Capacity, what circuit you use or whatever, when your Load is about 5mA (of corse higher Loads gives us a lower capacity due to the increase of ionic resitens) you can't squeeze more juce out of the Battery then you already do with a cut-off voltage of 0,8V.

(Sry for my english, i hope there aren't too many mistakes)

Hello Akra,
Thanks for this highly interesting calculation!

In is interesting what one can learn about batteries from this thread

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on September 04, 2015, 07:48:51 am

I think I've worked out what the holes in the case are for, its so people can see through it..... :palm:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=169244;image)


And can anyone here understand French as it's all Greek to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55rohP99_OI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55rohP99_OI)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 04, 2015, 07:51:12 am

Quote from: Akra on September 04, 2015, 07:14:32 am

There is an easy way to tell if you can squeeze more juce out of a Battery.
If you know the theoretical Capacity of the Battery, you can easily tell how much juce is left.
For this reason i did a chemical analysis of a brand new DURACELL Battery.
The results are in the attached pdf file.
In short:
The Battery delivers a capacity of about 3,5Ah with a constant Load of 5mA (datasheet) und this is almost the theoretical Limit (calculated from the analysis: 3,554Ah) !

I haven't seen that done before, nice!, thanks for sharing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 04, 2015, 08:01:31 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 04, 2015, 07:48:51 am

And can anyone here understand French as it's all Greek to me.

Sounds like he's just reading the Batteriser press release so it's just the usual batteriser marketing fluff.

Batteries can last 8x longer...

It works because most devices shut down at 1.4V, leaving most of the power unused...

etc.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SteveyG on September 04, 2015, 08:09:34 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 04, 2015, 02:32:06 am

He's STILL at it!
He's just keeps the libel going  :clap:
OK, so he called himself David Parish again now, and has also claimed that "Brad Jones" is another real person.
Why then have both "David Parish" and "Brad Jones" posted the exact same comment to one of my videos?
What an absolute fruitcake!  :palm:

"David Parish" - "Brad Jones"

Perhaps his real name is "Brad Parish" and decided to mix his name up with "David Jones"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 04, 2015, 08:12:45 am

Quote from: Akra on September 04, 2015, 07:14:32 am

Hello,
There is an easy way to tell if you can squeeze more juce out of a Battery.
If you know the theoretical Capacity of the Battery, you can easily tell how much juce is left.
For this reason i did a chemical analysis of a brand new DURACELL Battery.

The results are in the attached pdf file.

In short:
The Battery delivers a capacity of about 3,5Ah with a constant Load of 5mA (datasheet) und this is almost the theoretical Limit (calculated from the analysis: 3,554Ah) !
So there is nothing left you can use to deliver more Capacity (if you don't break the laws of Physics of course).

This is scientific foundamental and it doesn't matter how you measure the voltage/Capacity, what circuit you use or whatever, when your Load is about 5mA (of corse higher Loads gives us a lower capacity due to the increase of ionic resitens) you can't squeeze more juce out of the Battery then you already do with a cut-off voltage of 0,8V.

(Sry for my english, i hope there aren't too many mistakes)

Handbook of Batteries (3rd edition, McGraw-Hill) agree with you.

0.308 Ah / g * 11.530 g = 3.55124 Ah.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 04, 2015, 08:28:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 04, 2015, 07:51:12 am

Quote from: Akra on September 04, 2015, 07:14:32 am

There is an easy way to tell if you can squeeze more juce out of a Battery.
If you know the theoretical Capacity of the Battery, you can easily tell how much juce is left.
For this reason i did a chemical analysis of a brand new DURACELL Battery.
The results are in the attached pdf file.
In short:
The Battery delivers a capacity of about 3,5Ah with a constant Load of 5mA (datasheet) und this is almost the theoretical Limit (calculated from the analysis: 3,554Ah) !

I haven't seen that done before, nice!, thanks for sharing.

OK, so we can now discharge our batteries down to a specific voltage, measuring mAh as we go, and we know exactly how much energy is left in the battery when we reach that voltage. No need to calculate areas under curves.

It might be worthwhile doing that and plotting a graph of battery voltage vs. remaining energy (if anybody has the time/inclination/hardware).

ESR is a problem though - the observed voltage will be different under different loads. You'd have to plot a graph at several different loads for it to be useful.

What would be cool is a programmable device that could vary the load every minute or so, logging the voltage at each load - do it in one pass.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 04, 2015, 08:34:50 am

PS: What causes the difference in battery capacity due to temperature and load? Is it purely due to wasted heat from ESR?

ie. In cold weather it has higher ESR and will produce more heat. Higher loads mean the battery gets warmer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Synthetase on September 04, 2015, 08:47:47 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 04, 2015, 08:34:50 am

PS: What causes the difference in battery capacity due to temperature and load? Is it purely due to wasted heat from ESR?

ie. In cold weather it has higher ESR and will produce more heat. Higher loads mean the battery gets warmer.

Battery chemistry. The chemical reactions will slow down as the ambient temperature drops, limiting current flow. Also when the cell is subjected to higher load current, what you're asking from the chemistry is for a lot of ions to find their way to electrodes really quickly, this is a physical process and it takes time for it to happen, hence the faster you want it to go, the less time it'll last and vice versa. This is also why cells can appear to recover significant capacity after a rest: the chemicals have had a chance to disperse more throughout the whole cell, so you don't have a huge build-up of 'spent' chemicals directly around each electrode.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on September 04, 2015, 08:48:06 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 04, 2015, 08:01:31 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 04, 2015, 07:48:51 am

And can anyone here understand French as it's all Greek to me.

Sounds like he's just reading the Batteriser press release so it's just the usual batteriser marketing fluff.

Batteries can last 8x longer...

It works because most devices shut down at 1.4V, leaving most of the power unused...

etc.

Yes, they are mentioning the initial specifications: 80% energy left in discarded batteries, gear stops at 1.4V, Multiplies life of battery by 8.
They say they don't know if the claimed specs are true - with a grin - so it's not just repeating the fluff.
Further they discuss that rechargeable batteries are a more straightforward solution, and one of them mentions that that is not a feasable solution in all cases, because the voltage is lower.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bookaboo on September 04, 2015, 08:48:28 am

In fairness if there is a useful application for the batteriser it's not a 5mA constant load, never in a million years would a boost converter help there. That said their marketing bs infers otherwise.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 04, 2015, 08:58:11 am

You know where the real forefront of miniaturisation and efficiency in boost converters for AA Cells is?
LED Flashlights.
Zebralight for instance, build single-AA flashlights which are incredibly efficient and have fantastic buck/boost DC/DC converters which are miniaturised into the head of the tiny torches. Such as the SC5 AA, for instance:
http://www.zebralight.com/SC5-AA-Flashlight-Cool-White_p_161.html (http://www.zebralight.com/SC5-AA-Flashlight-Cool-White_p_161.html)
(http://www.zebralight.com/thumbnail.asp?file=assets/images/sc5bezeldownfront.jpg&maxx=300&maxy=0)



Here's a review of that flashlight:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?403440-Zebralight-SC5-(1xAA-XM-L2)-Review-RUNTIMES-BEAMSHOTS-VIDEO-and-more (http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?403440-Zebralight-SC5-(1xAA-XM-L2)-Review-RUNTIMES-BEAMSHOTS-VIDEO-and-more)!
and notice the stable regulation of the boost converter on Alkaline cells (the pink straight lines):
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/selfbuilt/2015/SC5-Hi-Alka.gif)


But LED flashlights such as Fenix have been doing this for years. They certainly are getting better at it though. A lot of earlier flashlights struggled to regulate properly with a single AA Alkaline, but this one does it really well, with a super flat output "curve" or straight line, as the battery discharges right down to 0.7V.


The SC5 I mentioned here, for instance, has the following runtimes (on a single eneloop):
535 Lm (3min, then 325lm, total 0.8 hr),
325 Lm (0.9 hr) /
200 Lm (1.8 hrs) /
115 Lm (3.5 hrs),
48 Lm (8.5 hrs),
20 Lm (16.5 hrs) /
8 Lm (42 hrs),
1.1 Lm (16 days) /
0.3 Lm (50 days) /
0.1 Lm (4 months)
Parasitic Drain: 2.4 uA (much less than the self discharging of a battery)

That's some pretty efficient electronic design there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 04, 2015, 09:26:55 am

Quote from: jancumps on September 04, 2015, 08:48:06 am

Yes, they are mentioning the initial specifications: 80% energy left in discarded batteries, gear stops at 1.4V, Multiplies life of battery by 8.
They say they don't know if the claimed specs are true - with a grin - so it's not just repeating the fluff.

But ... they don't say they aren't true - which would be not repeating the fluff.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 04, 2015, 09:32:49 am

Quote from: samgab on September 04, 2015, 08:58:11 am

You know where the real forefront of miniaturisation and efficiency in boost converters for AA Cells is?
LED Flashlights.

I agree.

Plus: These people have been making real products and competing with each other for years.

Quote from: samgab on September 04, 2015, 08:58:11 am

Zebralight for instance, build single-AA flashlights which are incredibly efficient and have fantastic buck/boost DC/DC converters which are miniaturised into the head of the tiny torches. Such as the SC5 AA, for instance:

Let me guess: You own that model.  :)

My EDC is a Fenix LD01 - same as Dave Jones. It's truly keyring size and runs on a single AAA battery - none of that bulky, high-current, AA cheating.

Quote from: samgab on September 04, 2015, 08:58:11 am

this one does it really well, with a super flat output "curve" or straight line, as the battery discharges right down to 0.7V.

Why is it much brighter for the first 17 minutes? That doesn't seem like "super flat" to me.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 04, 2015, 09:42:28 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 04, 2015, 07:48:51 am

And can anyone here understand French as it's all Greek to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55rohP99_OI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55rohP99_OI)

I will watch this and make a transcript of this video (or try to) then translate it to english. I will do my best.

(Ouch 1hr of speak? hum I will see what I can do... :D)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 04, 2015, 09:42:42 am

Quote from: Synthetase on September 04, 2015, 08:47:47 am

Battery chemistry. The chemical reactions will slow down as the ambient temperature drops, limiting current flow. Also when the cell is subjected to higher load current, what you're asking from the chemistry is for a lot of ions to find their way to electrodes really quickly, this is a physical process and it takes time for it to happen, hence the faster you want it to go, the less time it'll last and vice versa. This is also why cells can appear to recover significant capacity after a rest: the chemicals have had a chance to disperse more throughout the whole cell, so you don't have a huge build-up of 'spent' chemicals directly around each electrode.

But the only effect of all that is to change the ESR...?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 04, 2015, 09:45:08 am

Quote from: Godzil on September 04, 2015, 09:42:28 am

(Ouch 1hr of speak? hum I will see what I can do... :D)

There's only a couple of minutes talking about the Batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 04, 2015, 09:56:34 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 04, 2015, 09:32:49 am

My EDC is a Fenix LD01 - same as Dave Jones. It's truly keyring size and runs on a single AAA battery - none of that bulky, high-current, AA cheating.

And it runs on the smell of an oily battery. It worked with the fully discharged AAA's I showed in a recent video. Of course it wouldn't last long, but it worked.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on September 04, 2015, 10:00:02 am

Quote from: Godzil on September 04, 2015, 09:42:28 am

I will watch this and make a transcript of this video (or try to) then translate it to english. I will do my best.

(Ouch 1hr of speak? hum I will see what I can do... :D)

i wouldn't be too fussed about it as Fungus and others have already indicated that they are just having a chat, the reason that I posted it was because I had no clue about the context of the conversation and it was not an easy one to find with only 10 views, also the name of the channel rang a bell but I could be mistaken.

Many Thanks

Muttley

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 04, 2015, 10:03:29 am

In fact there is only 4min so it should be quite quick

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 04, 2015, 10:03:45 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 04, 2015, 05:05:11 am

I'll hit the 3 hour mark in 9 minutes and the thing is still going and the backlight hasn't even dimmed yet.  It's currently at 2.63v under load.  In their video, theirs supposedly completely died before it got to the 2 hour mark.  Their graph also shows a drop in current at about 1 hr 40 min, which I'd assume is the screen dimming at 2.6v.  That means they started the test with a not-so-fresh battery considering mine is about to hit 3 hours and still hasn't dimmed yet.   :popcorn:

EDIT: I forgot to mention, agilent's benchvue software limits datalogs to 1 hour each if you have the "free" version (paid one is $200).  Those cheap bastards.  I would've been better off using the same arduino that's controlling the servo to datalog to an SD card  |O

You get one 30 day trial of the full BenchVue that will permit unlimited logging time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 04, 2015, 10:17:37 am

Quote from: Simon on September 04, 2015, 06:02:46 am

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 03, 2015, 10:42:40 pm

morons.
The device will show it can no longer display the back-light or it will shut down. That is a fail for either mode. With the their (custom) boost converter it runs almost 6X longer. UL has verified it in their lab.
Ah yes, then the comeback is UL is paid so they do what you want. Really, are you all that retarded. They are in business to make money, they charge to test a product. I do not know of any labs that test a company product for free. You cannot buy the result.
I have dealt with UL many times over the course of my career in Silicon Valley. They are very rigid in terms of reporting results.

And, genius, if you use an off the shelf boost converter you will likely see a different result. That is not their product. You may only see 2 or 3X. Keep digging. They win, you lose. Do something constructive. Like little children stomping their feet.
If you want to find bad things you will. If you want to find good things, you will. Just constantly negative. You cannot stop them. They have investors that have done due diligence. Try an incandescent flashlight. Will it stay brighter longer with a highly efficient boost converter? very simple. try it.

UL testing is for safety and not to verify that it works as described: http://ul.com/ (http://ul.com/) anyone who understands anything about this will see a mile of that it's a scam and fast turning into downright fraud. Wony don't you go back to your rich boss and tell him he is never going to get anywhere. Well actually he may and that is why he is paying all this money to get fake articles and reviews not to mention youtube thumbs down. The device is cheap, $2.50 and will be bought in mass (he hopes) nobody is going to take him to court over $2.50 but collectively he will make a lot of money out of this fraud. These days you can't get justice over teaching material that tells lies that is governed by a government body never mind a misleading product.

Just the claim that it must work because it was UL tested is utter fraud and show batterizer and your boss for the scammer and fraudster he is. No go back and tell him we all said "Hi" oh and tell him that an oscilloscope with a calibration signal on a video at the back is not going to fool anyone, really how pathetic, in fact the most pathetic thing I have ever seen.

UL actually does offer independent testing of manufacturer claims. What the question is - is what was the "test."  If UL ran a test, there should be a report. All Bob needs to do is upload the report.  I'm guessing we will never see it. There will only be minor excerpts at best.

The GPS claim is now disproved as well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ToreJSS on September 04, 2015, 10:26:28 am

Don`t know if anyone has discussed this before but I`ll ask anyway, will the batteriser drain power from the battery when it`s attached to it? So that the "whatever it`s attached to" will drain even when it`s off?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 04, 2015, 10:27:43 am

Quote

Quote from: Fungus on Today at 07:32:49 PM


>Quote from: samgab on Today at 06:58:11 PM
... Such as the SC5 AA, for instance:


Let me guess: You own that model. 

My EDC is a Fenix LD01 - same as Dave Jones. It's truly keyring size and runs on a single AAA battery - none of that bulky, high-current, AA cheating.


Quote from: samgab on Today at 06:58:11 PM
this one does it really well, with a super flat output "curve" or straight line, as the battery discharges right down to 0.7V.



Why is it much brighter for the first 17 minutes? That doesn't seem like "super flat" to me.

Hey, I don't have the SC5, although I do have an SC600 which runs on a single 18650, is also tiny, and puts out insane amounts of light, but that one didn't seem appropriate to this discussion about Alkaline AA batteries. 

As for the brighter initial output and then the flat line... that is by design... It drops to a lower mode of output when battery voltage reaches a certain point. But I was trying to highlight the regulation mainly. There's no curving down, it just runs as a straight line then drops off like a brick wall between modes.

When you look at the full review though, and see the output charts for Eneloops for instance, it stays at full output longer, although it still drops down to those same levels after a time, but spends less time running at the lower levels (It's probably to do with the internal resistance of the Alkaline cells compared to the NiMH cells. I don't think the Alkaline chemistry can sustain the output current required to keep the max output going long. I'd like to see some tailcap current measurements):
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff97/selfbuilt/2015/SC5-Hi-EnePro.gif)

The LD01 is a neat little torch, again, amazing performance for a single AAA. My EDC keychain is a 4Sevens Preon0, same form factor. But I wasn't sure if they are fully regulated or if they use PWM. I think they're regulated too. I also have a Fenix LD20 which also has great regulation.

But yes, regulating AA and AAA cells to get steady performance and to use all of the energy in Alkaline cells is nothing new.


Also check this review
http://lygte-info.dk/review/Review%20Fenix%20LD01%20SS%202010%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/review/Review%20Fenix%20LD01%20SS%202010%20UK.html)
of the LD01.
Check out the regulation shown by a voltage sweep (you have to read it backward):
(http://www.lygte-info.dk/pic/Fenix/LD01-2010-SS/Fenix%20LD01%20high.png)
Notice how the current climbs way up to nearly 2 Amps as the cell voltage dips down to 1V! That's just to maintain a constant(ish) light output, and there is a max Power draw of nearly 2W!


This gives an idea of what the batteriser would have to do to keep a constant voltage output at 1.5V although it has to maintain it right down to 0.6V, not just 1V input voltage. (to stay on topic ;) )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on September 04, 2015, 10:31:21 am

Quote from: ToreJSS on September 04, 2015, 10:26:28 am

Don`t know if anyone has discussed this before but I`ll ask anyway, will the batteriser drain power from the battery when it`s attached to it? So that the "whatever it`s attached to" will drain even when it`s off?

Yep, discussed :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Akra on September 04, 2015, 10:33:40 am

Thanks for the positiv feedback:)

@Fungus:

As stated by others one reason is the increase of the Ionic resistence and the speed of the reaction.

But also the lower Capacity for higher current for example is due to dependence of the Battery voltage of the ion concentration (nernst equation).
For example the concentration of the Zincions rapidly increase in the kathode space if you draw a high current.
The high Zinc concentration reduce the voltage and availible current.
Due to Fick's law th concentraion decrease over time and again you can withdraw a higher current and also the voltage will increase.
This is generally known as the recovery of Batteries.

And also diffusion of the ions to reduce the concentration is also very  temperature dependent.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on September 04, 2015, 10:56:41 am

Interesting Stuff.


http://imgur.com/gallery/iRNGlpO (http://imgur.com/gallery/iRNGlpO)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 04, 2015, 10:57:33 am

Quote from: ToreJSS on September 04, 2015, 10:26:28 am

Don`t know if anyone has discussed this before but I`ll ask anyway, will the batteriser drain power from the battery when it`s attached to it? So that the "whatever it`s attached to" will drain even when it`s off?

As long as you don't have circuitry in place to disconnect the DC-DC converter from the power source, it will draw current (quiescent current) - this can be very low however, like below 20 µA. But it could be a problem in low-power devices, or if they batteriser is left on the battery for a long time - where it can cause deep discharge and potentially leakage. For a product that's as universal as this, I don't think it's possible to have circuitry that disconnects it.

Someone can correct me on this..

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on September 04, 2015, 11:02:25 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 04, 2015, 10:56:41 am

Interesting Stuff.


http://imgur.com/gallery/iRNGlpO (http://imgur.com/gallery/iRNGlpO)

Goes to show that he's neither David nor Brad.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 04, 2015, 11:06:04 am

Quote from: edy on September 04, 2015, 02:36:54 am

I bet you for one moment they never thought any EE would pay attention, nor would someone with a large following like Dave catch them in the act. They completely miscalculated that they would be called out to prove anything.

Damn those engineers, with their pesky facts...  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 04, 2015, 11:17:03 am

Quote from: jancumps on September 04, 2015, 11:02:25 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 04, 2015, 10:56:41 am

Interesting Stuff.
http://imgur.com/gallery/iRNGlpO (http://imgur.com/gallery/iRNGlpO)

Goes to show that he's neither David nor Brad.

Also that he is affiliated to Batteroo, and that he speaks for them - both of which they keep denying.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on September 04, 2015, 11:26:54 am

To Brad Jones/Dave Parish/whoever you are:

If you're as close to Batteriser as you claim, and have offered to send some to Dave for review, you must have access to them yourself? You should personally test them; it's not hard to do at all. Get some new batteries, put them in some battery-operated devices you have, and time how long it takes for the device to stop working completely. Then put the Batterisers on them, and see how much longer it lasts. 8 times? 80% more (1.8x)?

Instead, all you seem to be doing is blindly believing, and throwing insults at everyone who disagrees. Why are you so insistent in defending a product which no one else has, and one that you haven't even tested to see whether it works!? :palm:

If you feel inclined to now claim that you have, we'll know that you're lying, because otherwise it would be something a "fan" would've surely posted a video about - proof that it actually works! Instead all the videos your "fan page" have produced are marketing fluff and deception. :--

You don't have to trust us, or Batteriser. You can test and find the truth yourself.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 04, 2015, 11:52:43 am

A discussion has started on the website of the VC company backing Batteriser:
http://sktainnopartners.com/welcome-to-batteroo/ (http://sktainnopartners.com/welcome-to-batteroo/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 04, 2015, 11:56:48 am

I know it's already been soundly debunked, but I just noticed this on the video of the "testing" of the Garmin golf GPS also.
Where they show a screenshot of the testing, it shows the current over time.
Although it fluctuates, the one that "dies" without the batteriser averages about 150-200mA for about 2 hours. so that's about 300-400mAh of capacity! So they are claiming that the GPS device only used 300-400mAh out of a brand new pair of duracells before becoming unusable? Nonsense.
And with the batteriser on, it ran for 10 hours again with an average current draw of about 150mA, so about 1500mAh drawn in that case before the device died. Still seems a little on the low side, if they're claiming to use ALL of the capacity in the cells.
(http://i58.tinypic.com/209o6xh.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/2kq7mx.jpg)

Annoying that poor dupes are featuring it on golfing websites now: http://www.mrtopesgolf.com/blog/video-increase-battery-life-up-to-8x-in-golf-gps-rangefinders-with-batteriser/ (http://www.mrtopesgolf.com/blog/video-increase-battery-life-up-to-8x-in-golf-gps-rangefinders-with-batteriser/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 04, 2015, 12:56:02 pm

Quote from: jancumps on September 04, 2015, 11:02:25 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 04, 2015, 10:56:41 am

Interesting Stuff.


http://imgur.com/gallery/iRNGlpO (http://imgur.com/gallery/iRNGlpO)

Goes to show that he's neither David nor Brad.

I don't understand, is Batteriser Fan Admin (whoever that is) trying to blackmail Batteroo by releasing email screen shots? Or is the guy just taking revenge for being silenced by Batteroo? Maybe somebody forgot to pay someone off. Or was it all a setup from the beginning by an anti-Batteriser proponent? Perhaps a disgruntled PR firm employee (or ex-employee now)?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Simon on September 04, 2015, 01:21:20 pm

Check out the new website claim: http://batteriser.com/ (http://batteriser.com/) now they say that 80% is unused and that 20% gets used, that's 4 times loger and 5 times as long not 8 times, I think someones maths prowess is worse than mine.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 04, 2015, 01:26:22 pm

I found this quote, from a PHD who actually seems to understand battery chemistry and underlying motivations, interesting:

Quote

"...All the marketing, videos and posts by the company in question still show that they do not have the necessary understanding of battery chemistry which is needed. If they interchangeably mistake voltage for power than this might sadly be enough to fool venture capitalists but it will not help their product at all.

Yes it is amazing that you can develop a boost converter with such a small footprint nowadays, but this does really not change the physics and chemistry which is responsible for a hugely nonlinear relationship between battery voltage and remaining energy in the battery. If you take a piece of copper and a piece of zinc and press it into a lemon, you get a battery with quite a high voltage, but there really is not much energy which could be extracted this way. The same is true for the chemistry of a regular AA battery: the voltage is determined by the chemistry and the energy stored is determined by the amount of remaining metal and chemicals.

Also, as Dave Jones brilliantly explained lately, the current you need to extract from the battery to deliver the same power from the boost converter, rises towards the very end of the lifetime of a battery, making the internal series resistance more and more working against you.

There is no significant energy left in an alkaline AA battery, once the voltage has dropped below 1 V, even though this is still 67% of the original voltage - but the anode metal is consumed at this point!

There is only one party here who really wants to make money from this story, and it's neither the battery manufacturers, nor is it Dave Jones.

Uwe Zimmermann,
PhD, Senior lecturer in electronics @ Uppsala University"

- http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440136/The-Batteriser--scam-or-savior- (http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440136/The-Batteriser--scam-or-savior-)
Sorry if it's already been posted elsewhere, the comment threads are hard to keep track of.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 04, 2015, 02:15:49 pm

Quote from: samgab on September 04, 2015, 01:26:22 pm

I found this quote, from a PHD who actually seems to understand battery chemistry and underlying motivations, interesting:

Quote

"...All the marketing, videos and posts by the company in question still show that they do not have the necessary understanding of battery chemistry which is needed. If they interchangeably mistake voltage for power than this might sadly be enough to fool venture capitalists but it will not help their product at all.

Yes it is amazing that you can develop a boost converter with such a small footprint nowadays, but this does really not change the physics and chemistry which is responsible for a hugely nonlinear relationship between battery voltage and remaining energy in the battery. If you take a piece of copper and a piece of zinc and press it into a lemon, you get a battery with quite a high voltage, but there really is not much energy which could be extracted this way. The same is true for the chemistry of a regular AA battery: the voltage is determined by the chemistry and the energy stored is determined by the amount of remaining metal and chemicals.

Also, as Dave Jones brilliantly explained lately, the current you need to extract from the battery to deliver the same power from the boost converter, rises towards the very end of the lifetime of a battery, making the internal series resistance more and more working against you.

There is no significant energy left in an alkaline AA battery, once the voltage has dropped below 1 V, even though this is still 67% of the original voltage - but the anode metal is consumed at this point!

There is only one party here who really wants to make money from this story, and it's neither the battery manufacturers, nor is it Dave Jones.

Uwe Zimmermann,
PhD, Senior lecturer in electronics @ Uppsala University"

- http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440136/The-Batteriser--scam-or-savior- (http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440136/The-Batteriser--scam-or-savior-)
Sorry if it's already been posted elsewhere, the comment threads are hard to keep track of.

EXCELLENT find!!

Also, it's only 4 hours of logging since I had to go to bed due to having to get up early for work, but here's a graph of the discharge of fresh AA duracells in the exact same gps unit that batteriser used in their video.  In their video, they show it dying at about 1 hr 50 minutes.  Mine was still full screen brightness (as far as I could tell) at the 4 hour mark, and since it was still at 2.55v, that means it still had another 450mV until it hits voltage cutoff.  Their video is absolutely bullshit

(http://i.imgur.com/T6KeLXb.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 04, 2015, 02:41:52 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 04, 2015, 08:28:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 04, 2015, 07:51:12 am

Quote from: Akra on September 04, 2015, 07:14:32 am

There is an easy way to tell if you can squeeze more juce out of a Battery.
If you know the theoretical Capacity of the Battery, you can easily tell how much juce is left.
For this reason i did a chemical analysis of a brand new DURACELL Battery.
The results are in the attached pdf file.
In short:
The Battery delivers a capacity of about 3,5Ah with a constant Load of 5mA (datasheet) und this is almost the theoretical Limit (calculated from the analysis: 3,554Ah) !

I haven't seen that done before, nice!, thanks for sharing.

OK, so we can now discharge our batteries down to a specific voltage, measuring mAh as we go, and we know exactly how much energy is left in the battery when we reach that voltage. No need to calculate areas under curves.

It might be worthwhile doing that and plotting a graph of battery voltage vs. remaining energy (if anybody has the time/inclination/hardware).

ESR is a problem though - the observed voltage will be different under different loads. You'd have to plot a graph at several different loads for it to be useful.

What would be cool is a programmable device that could vary the load every minute or so, logging the voltage at each load - do it in one pass.

I don't know if this would help. Batteries are strange. If you discharge it with 100 mA constant current, but then measure it with 5 mA current, voltage will rise over time. How high does it rise and how long does it need? As mentioned by Akra, it is the recovery effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovery_effect).

And there are other effects, like if you discharge it with 25 mA constant current, looks like you get more energy from the battery until it is discharged compared to 500 mA. At least this suggests this datasheet (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/E91.pdf), but specifying the capacity in mAh might be misleading and Wh might be the same. But nevertheless it was interesting to see how to calculate the max theoretical energy of a battery with the chemical reaction formula.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on September 04, 2015, 03:00:21 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on September 04, 2015, 02:41:52 pm

And there are other effects, like if you discharge it with 25 mA constant current, looks like you get more energy from the battery until it is discharged compared to 500 mA. At least this suggests this datasheet (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/E91.pdf), but specifying the capacity in mAh might be misleading and Wh might be the same. But nevertheless it was interesting to see how to calculate the max theoretical energy of a battery with the chemical reaction formula.

At higher currents you lose more energy in the ESR. Also at higher currents the terminal voltage is lower, so the battery has to be discarded as empty sooner, because of the larger voltage drop across the ESR.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 04, 2015, 03:04:05 pm

Battery chemist is a tricky thing.  Even using Peukert's constant, you still have to account for battery age and temperature.  Tricky business  :scared:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 04, 2015, 03:04:54 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on September 04, 2015, 02:41:52 pm

I don't know if this would help. Batteries are strange. If you discharge it with 100 mA constant current, but then measure it with 5 mA current, voltage will rise over time. How high does it rise and how long does it need?

That's all part of the learning process...  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on September 04, 2015, 03:44:50 pm

Just did a Google Search for "Batteriser" from a computer that have never searched for that, also not at home so the INET provider is also different.
Same results as "private browsing", batteriser.com and various pages, at 4-5 place the debunking pages/videos begins :)

And 5ky nice work, looking forward to see the results, i used to test Li-Po/ion battery's so i know it can be time consuming...

If you have any kind of time-lapse camera you could also log voltage by having an "always on" multimeter in frame with the GPS and just having it take picture every 1 sec, i have a lot of tiny "spycams" that does this and makes it into a 30fps video (1 sec video is then 30 sec real time), this is for a very simple setup anybody can throw together, will not be the most precise but will be MUCH better then anything i have seen so far from batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 04, 2015, 03:51:32 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on September 04, 2015, 03:44:50 pm

Just did a Google Search for "Batteriser" from a computer that have never searched for that, also not at home so the INET provider is also different.
Same results as "private browsing", batteriser.com and various pages, at 4-5 place the debunking pages/videos begins :)

And 5ky nice work, looking forward to see the results, i used to test Li-Po/ion battery's so i know it can be time consuming...

If you have any kind of time-lapse camera you could also log voltage by having an "always on" multimeter in frame with the GPS and just having it take picture every 1 sec, i have a lot of tiny "spycams" that does this and makes it into a 30fps video (1 sec video is then 30 sec real time), this is for a very simple setup anybody can throw together, will not be the most precise but will be MUCH better then anything i have seen so far from batteriser.

funny enough, I used my old smartphone to do a timelapse last night.  i had an analog clock in view, as well as the computer monitor where you can see the voltage, and in the foreground you can see the gps unit and the servo setup

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 04, 2015, 04:08:19 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on September 04, 2015, 03:44:50 pm

If you have any kind of time-lapse camera you could also log voltage by having an "always on" multimeter in frame with the GPS and just having it take picture every 1 sec, i have a lot of tiny "spycams" that does this and makes it into a 30fps video (1 sec video is then 30 sec real time), this is for a very simple setup anybody can throw together, will not be the most precise but will be MUCH better then anything i have seen so far from batteriser.

It is better to use an Arduino, as I did, because then you have the voltage reading data:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg743529/#msg743529 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg743529/#msg743529)
Testing if the GPS is still running could be done with an additional photodiode, which would result in another curve with probably three levels: full brightness, dimmed screen after the warning message and device off. Bonus points if you use a uCurrent to measure the current as a third channel :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 04, 2015, 04:16:54 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on September 04, 2015, 04:08:19 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on September 04, 2015, 03:44:50 pm

If you have any kind of time-lapse camera you could also log voltage by having an "always on" multimeter in frame with the GPS and just having it take picture every 1 sec, i have a lot of tiny "spycams" that does this and makes it into a 30fps video (1 sec video is then 30 sec real time), this is for a very simple setup anybody can throw together, will not be the most precise but will be MUCH better then anything i have seen so far from batteriser.

It is better to use an Arduino, as I did, because then you have the voltage reading data:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg743529/#msg743529 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg743529/#msg743529)
Testing if the GPS is still running could be done with an additional photodiode, which would result in another curve with probably three levels: full brightness, dimmed screen after the warning message and device off. Bonus points if you use a uCurrent to measure the current as a third channel :)

Yeah I probably should have gone that route.  Would be more robust than free version of benchvue.

I do have a uCurrent so maybe I'll have to work that into the mix when I retest this weekend

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 04, 2015, 04:35:15 pm

Looks like your nice 34461A can save the logged data to an USB memory stick, if the free PC software is too limited. But is it true that it can't measure voltage and current at the same time? Then an Arduino would be indeed better for this application. See this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg743640/#msg743640) for the latest Arduino sketch, because my first version could crash because of unsafe functions within the interrupt. One sample per second is sufficient, so you can oversample it for higher resoultion than the 10 bits ADC. And if you supply a reference voltage to the AREF pin (and enabling it with analogReference(EXTERNAL)) it gets even better.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 04, 2015, 05:12:20 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on September 04, 2015, 04:35:15 pm

Looks like your nice 34461A can save the logged data to an USB memory stick, if the free PC software is too limited. But is it true that it can't measure voltage and current at the same time? Then an Arduino would be indeed better for this application. See this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg743640/#msg743640) for the latest Arduino sketch, because my first version could crash because of unsafe functions within the interrupt. One sample per second is sufficient, so you can oversample it for higher resoultion than the 10 bits ADC. And if you supply a reference voltage to the AREF pin (and enabling it with analogReference(EXTERNAL)) it gets even better.

As silly as it sounds, my model can't data log without a computer. I think the 70 model adds that menu option. It can measure voltage and current simultaneously, but I'm not sure if that works while data logging. I might have to try. I'm curious what the burden is on that thing

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 04, 2015, 05:14:44 pm

I wrote a blog post highlighting some big IndieGogo and Kickstarter "Scampaigns" (similar to Batteriser) and one of the ads on my page pointed to this company:

https://www.krowdster.co/media-lists (https://www.krowdster.co/media-lists)

It's no wonder "media" and "journalists" on the web don't think twice about disseminating and promoting dubious companies and products. All of these so-called writers are simply trying to make a living on the internet and will feature just about anything for the right price. The "Krowdster" site is another example of how PR firms/"Journalist"-Bloggers and such are paid to flood the internet with whatever a company wants you to hear. Sadly, most people don't know how rampant it is, and tend to believe articles.

I'm glad to see the PC-WORLD article that Batteriser keeps linking to getting a flood-storm of negative comments. At least they didn't turn that off, although one person said their negative post was removed. But there is a lot of chatter on the PC-World article:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 04, 2015, 05:18:42 pm

Quote from: edy on September 04, 2015, 05:14:44 pm

I wrote a blog post highlighting some big IndieGogo and Kickstarter "Scampaigns" (similar to Batteriser) and one of the ads on my page pointed to this company:

https://www.krowdster.co/media-lists (https://www.krowdster.co/media-lists)

It's no wonder "media" and "journalists" on the web don't think twice about disseminating and promoting dubious companies and products. All of these so-called writers are simply trying to make a living on the internet and will feature just about anything for the right price. The "Krowdster" site is another example of how PR firms/"Journalist"-Bloggers and such are paid to flood the internet with whatever a company wants you to hear. Sadly, most people don't know how rampant it is, and tend to believe articles.

I'm glad to see the PC-WORLD article that Batteriser keeps linking to getting a flood-storm of negative comments. At least they didn't turn that off, although one person said their negative post was removed. But there is a lot of chatter on the PC-World article:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html)

That stuff is scary, almost makes me want to mention GamerGate  :wtf:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on September 04, 2015, 07:10:25 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on September 04, 2015, 02:41:52 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 04, 2015, 08:28:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 04, 2015, 07:51:12 am

Quote from: Akra on September 04, 2015, 07:14:32 am

There is an easy way to tell if you can squeeze more juce out of a Battery.
If you know the theoretical Capacity of the Battery, you can easily tell how much juce is left.
For this reason i did a chemical analysis of a brand new DURACELL Battery.
The results are in the attached pdf file.
In short:
The Battery delivers a capacity of about 3,5Ah with a constant Load of 5mA (datasheet) und this is almost the theoretical Limit (calculated from the analysis: 3,554Ah) !

I haven't seen that done before, nice!, thanks for sharing.

OK, so we can now discharge our batteries down to a specific voltage, measuring mAh as we go, and we know exactly how much energy is left in the battery when we reach that voltage. No need to calculate areas under curves.

It might be worthwhile doing that and plotting a graph of battery voltage vs. remaining energy (if anybody has the time/inclination/hardware).

ESR is a problem though - the observed voltage will be different under different loads. You'd have to plot a graph at several different loads for it to be useful.

What would be cool is a programmable device that could vary the load every minute or so, logging the voltage at each load - do it in one pass.

I don't know if this would help. Batteries are strange. If you discharge it with 100 mA constant current, but then measure it with 5 mA current, voltage will rise over time. How high does it rise and how long does it need? As mentioned by Akra, it is the recovery effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovery_effect).

And there are other effects, like if you discharge it with 25 mA constant current, looks like you get more energy from the battery until it is discharged compared to 500 mA. At least this suggests this datasheet (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/E91.pdf), but specifying the capacity in mAh might be misleading and Wh might be the same. But nevertheless it was interesting to see how to calculate the max theoretical energy of a battery with the chemical reaction formula.

Would you like the source code for my Arduino that's designed to do this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: robby1995 on September 04, 2015, 07:21:52 pm

Quote from: samgab on September 04, 2015, 11:56:48 am

(http://i58.tinypic.com/209o6xh.jpg)

it looks like the Red curve is WITH bat :bullshit:teriser and the geen without.
in the red curve the current is getting bigger while the voltage drops.
maybe they mixed up the results  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 04, 2015, 07:44:14 pm

Quote from: robby1995 on September 04, 2015, 07:21:52 pm

it looks like the Red curve is WITH bat :bullshit:teriser and the geen without.
in the red curve the current is getting bigger while the voltage drops.
maybe they mixed up the results  :-DD

Those graphs are exactly what you'd expect to see if the GPS already has a built-in DC booster. I wonder if it does...?  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on September 04, 2015, 08:00:56 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 04, 2015, 11:52:43 am

A discussion has started on the website of the VC company backing Batteriser:
http://sktainnopartners.com/welcome-to-batteroo/ (http://sktainnopartners.com/welcome-to-batteroo/)

I would not want to be the VC who approved this investment. Talk about career shortening decisions!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 04, 2015, 08:19:45 pm

Quote from: samgab on September 04, 2015, 11:56:48 am

(http://i58.tinypic.com/209o6xh.jpg)

So they are claiming that the GPS device only used 300-400mAh out of a brand new pair of duracells before becoming unusable? Nonsense.

You might have indirectly found the first Batteriser efficiency measurement!   :-+

They managed ten hours at 150mA. That means they got about 1500 mAh from their batteries, not 300-400.

But that's on the GPS side of the Batteriser... on the battery side it's constant-power so we need to use mWh:  1.5V @ 150mA is 225mW of power.

Here's the battery datasheet:

http://www.professional.duracell.com/downloads/datasheets/product/Ultra%20Power/Ultra-Power_AA_MX1500.pdf (http://www.professional.duracell.com/downloads/datasheets/product/Ultra%20Power/Ultra-Power_AA_MX1500.pdf)

On page 2 there's graphs for constant power. According to the second graph a drain of 225mW will last for approx. 11 hours. They got 10.

So...either:
a) Batteriser is 90% efficient at 225mW,
or
b) They cheated.

Thoughts?

(nb. This post is a correction of a previous one where I didn't check his math)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on September 04, 2015, 08:42:19 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 04, 2015, 08:19:45 pm

Quote from: samgab on September 04, 2015, 11:56:48 am

(http://i58.tinypic.com/209o6xh.jpg)

So they are claiming that the GPS device only used 300-400mAh out of a brand new pair of duracells before becoming unusable? Nonsense.

You might have indirectly found the first Batteriser efficiency measurement!   :-+

They managed ten hours at 150mA. That means they got about 1500 mAh from their batteries, not 300-400.

But that's on the GPS side of the Batteriser... on the battery side the current isn't constant so we need to use mWh:  1.5V @ 150mA is 225mW of power.

Here's the battery datasheet:

http://www.professional.duracell.com/downloads/datasheets/product/Ultra%20Power/Ultra-Power_AA_MX1500.pdf (http://www.professional.duracell.com/downloads/datasheets/product/Ultra%20Power/Ultra-Power_AA_MX1500.pdf)

On page 2 there's graphs for constant power. According to the second graph a drain of 225mW will last for approx. 11 hours. They got 10.

So...either:
a) Batteriser is 90% efficient at 225mW,
or
b) They cheated.

Thoughts?

(nb. This post is a correction of a previous one where I didn't check his math)

I think the average current draw is closer to 135 mA, the with of the spikes is not to scale here so you cannot really tell. But 135mA gives a power closer to 200mW per cell. And with that they should get some 13 hours, since they go down to 0.5V cell voltage.
And then you get closer to 77% effecient.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 04, 2015, 09:46:25 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 04, 2015, 02:15:49 pm

Also, it's only 4 hours of logging since I had to go to bed due to having to get up early for work, but here's a graph of the discharge of fresh AA duracells in the exact same gps unit that batteriser used in their video.  In their video, they show it dying at about 1 hr 50 minutes.  Mine was still full screen brightness (as far as I could tell) at the 4 hour mark, and since it was still at 2.55v, that means it still had another 450mV until it hits voltage cutoff.  Their video is absolutely bullshit

The big question is did you get the firmware message and the backlight turning off?
You should have, as it's supposed to be a firmware feature if the setting is for Alkaline batteries.
There is a report that the backlight eventually turns back on though.
But in either case though, sounds like their GPS video is thoroughly busted, nice work!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 04, 2015, 09:50:11 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 04, 2015, 05:12:20 pm

As silly as it sounds, my model can't data log without a computer. I think the 70 model adds that menu option.

Correct, the 70 model has the data logging. But the 34461A has the trend lot that can be extracted to USB stick after you stop it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 04, 2015, 10:01:04 pm

I was thinking about this last night... possibly in my sleep....

If a device NEEDS, 1.1volts per cell, or 2.2volts total for something using two AA cells in series, then logically, if there was energy below the 1.1volt per cell cutoff, then wouldn't the manufacturer design the device to run off three AA (or AAA) cells in series, so the 2.2volt cut off occurs at 0.75volts per cell...

But then I also thought, it's easy enough to see how much longer you can run from depleted cells, by taking a device that's meant to run off two, and wiring three in series, once they're already depleted of course (or in a device you don't care about)

No boost circuit required!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 04, 2015, 10:08:27 pm

And it's pretty well game over for Batteroo. The retailers have obviously walked away or at least will hold off until they see the product perform in the marketplace. 2016 could not have been the plan. They will be just another retailer on Amazon (which anyone can do) and selling on their own e-commerce site. And the suspicions of not having anywhere near enough cash to pull this off are correct. It sounds like the actual retail price will be more than $2.50 each - which would have put their BOM cost around $.80-85 per unit.  That price would require some very aggressive component deals which only could have occurred in volumes much greater than what they have commitments for. The only question left is whether they will be taping money to each package of Batterisers if and when the IGG campaign ships.

It's an ironic end, since after it has all shook out, the business development plan is back to bootstrapping.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=169455;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 04, 2015, 10:52:10 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 04, 2015, 09:46:25 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 04, 2015, 02:15:49 pm

Also, it's only 4 hours of logging since I had to go to bed due to having to get up early for work, but here's a graph of the discharge of fresh AA duracells in the exact same gps unit that batteriser used in their video.  In their video, they show it dying at about 1 hr 50 minutes.  Mine was still full screen brightness (as far as I could tell) at the 4 hour mark, and since it was still at 2.55v, that means it still had another 450mV until it hits voltage cutoff.  Their video is absolutely bullshit

The big question is did you get the firmware message and the backlight turning off?
You should have, as it's supposed to be a firmware feature if the setting is for Alkaline batteries.
There is a report that the backlight eventually turns back on though.
But in either case though, sounds like their GPS video is thoroughly busted, nice work!

I had it set to Alkaline and I never saw the brightness message even after the four hours, but since I have the servo hit the screen right where that "ok" button is (intentionally), I never saw it.  It didn't appear to have dimmed yet, however.  When testing with my bench power supply it dimmed at 1.3v per cell, and when I stopped last night, it was at 1.275v per cell, so I'm not sure if perhaps it just hadn't triggered the warning yet or not, but the message matches the one on their video (which you can somewhat read if you pause it at the right time) when it does appear.  I just got a fresh pair started and since it's early and I don't work tomorrow, this test will go until the GPS shuts itself off.  (and I installed an older version of the Agilent DMM software that doesn't have a time limit so I shouldn't have to hit start every hour this time.  Will post video/results when I'm done so people can see how BS their marketing videos really are.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 04, 2015, 11:57:08 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 04, 2015, 10:08:27 pm

And it's pretty well game over for Batteroo.

They may do well on those late night infomercials. And also bundling with toys or cheap dollar-store batteries. People will buy 1 or 2 and then realize it has little practical use. But meanwhile they will sell them by the millions... because nobody will care if they spent a few bucks on a "gamble".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 05, 2015, 12:21:48 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 04, 2015, 10:52:10 pm

I had it set to Alkaline and I never saw the brightness message even after the four hours, but since I have the servo hit the screen right where that "ok" button is (intentionally), I never saw it.  It didn't appear to have dimmed yet, however.  When testing with my bench power supply it dimmed at 1.3v per cell, and when I stopped last night, it was at 1.275v per cell, so I'm not sure if perhaps it just hadn't triggered the warning yet or not, but the message matches the one on their video (which you can somewhat read if you pause it at the right time) when it does appear.  I just got a fresh pair started and since it's early and I don't work tomorrow, this test will go until the GPS shuts itself off.  (and I installed an older version of the Agilent DMM software that doesn't have a time limit so I shouldn't have to hit start every hour this time.  Will post video/results when I'm done so people can see how BS their marketing videos really are.

Thanks heaps for all your testing. Would it be possible to take a clear photo of that message that comes up about the Alaline batteries, so we know verbatim what it is actually saying there. I have the gist of it, but I'd like to see exactly what the message is. Cheers! EDIT: Don't worry about that, I found the post in here where the message is quoted verbatim. Never mind!

To everyone:
I recommend having a good look at this chap HKJ's website here:
http://lygte-info.dk/info/batteryEnergyAtLowVoltage%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/info/batteryEnergyAtLowVoltage%20UK.html)

He does excellent testing of flashlights, chargers, DMMs, and cells (Alkaline, NiMH, and Li-ion).
The page I linked is where he checks how much energy really is left in Alkaline cells (He uses Duracell Plus Power), when under various constant power loads as the voltage decreases. The results are very interesting. I like all of HKJ's tests. He's very thorough, and seems to use proper scientific method. He's a member of flashlight forums like CPF, but I'm not sure if he's around on this forum. I hope he chimes in though if he is on this forum!
Anyway, I hope he doesn't mind, but I'll show a couple of his result charts and tables below, but I really recommend checking the full website article linked above.
(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/batteryEnergyLowVoltage/Duracell%20Plus%20Power%20AA-discharge-1.0W%20remaning%20energy%20zoom.png)
(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/batteryEnergyLowVoltage/Duracell%20Plus%20Power%20AA-discharge-0.5W%20remaning%20energy%20zoom.png)
(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/batteryEnergyLowVoltage/Duracell%20Plus%20Power%20AA-discharge-0.2W%20remaning%20energy%20zoom.png)

And the overall results of testing:
(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/batteryEnergyLowVoltage/RemaningEnergy.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 02:51:46 am

They just sent a "new announcement" on IGG. 

Hey Dave, Batteriser just tweeted this picture today stating that UL did their GPS test.  You should retweet their tweet and tag UL's official twitter channel asking if they really tested their product or not.  :popcorn:

https://twitter.com/GoBatteriser/status/639965473510064130 (https://twitter.com/GoBatteriser/status/639965473510064130)

(http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/UL-pic1.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 05, 2015, 03:14:11 am

Assuming this UL test is not a complete fabrication, there must be some quirk in the design of this Garmin product which occurs when the back light is continuously activated. Some kind of voltage sense algorithm which shuts down the unit when back light is always on at a high cutoff, whereas the Batterisers trick the Garmin algorithms. If these claims are true, I believe it is specifically valid only on certain devices. If the firmware on the Garmin was improved, it could simply refuse to turn on the back light when tapped (or have a very short "on" time) below a certain voltage, or warn the user, to make it last longer in real world situations (who taps on a Garmin repeatedly?). Something very odd going on here.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 03:27:51 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 02:51:46 am

They just sent a "new announcement" on IGG. 

Hey Dave, Batteriser just tweeted this picture today stating that UL did their GPS test.  You should retweet their tweet and tag UL's official twitter channel asking if they really tested their product or not.  :popcorn:

Why on earth would UL be running Batteriser's GPS test? They're a certification compliance company, not a product functionality tester. What internationally recognised standard/certification is Batteriser's GPS test complying with?

Would they really lie and use UL's name/log  like that? UL could destroy them. Very confused.  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 03:29:40 am

Quote from: edy on September 05, 2015, 03:14:11 am

Assuming this UL test is not a complete fabrication, there must be some quirk in the design of this Garmin product which occurs when the back light is continuously activated.

Agreed. There must be some reason they're obsessed with that GPS and why they built that screen-poking device.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on September 05, 2015, 03:36:22 am

That does not look like any of the UL certification reports I've seen before... and more importantly, neither Batteroo nor Batteriser show up in UL's database.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 03:37:25 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 04, 2015, 10:01:04 pm

I was thinking about this last night... possibly in my sleep....

If a device NEEDS, 1.1volts per cell, or 2.2volts total for something using two AA cells in series, then logically, if there was energy below the 1.1volt per cell cutoff, then wouldn't the manufacturer design the device to run off three AA (or AAA) cells in series, so the 2.2volt cut off occurs at 0.75volts per cell...

Sometimes there's a size requirement so you're not allowed to do that.

But in that case you'd probably build a DC booster into it. It's two square centimeters of PCB and 50 cents extra (maybe cheaper in big quantities).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 04:09:02 am

UL does indeed test the claims of device manufacturers.  It is not what they are normally known for, but it is a service UL provides.

With respect to this posting on Batteriser's site, this appears to be a test description that Batteroo provided to UL.  Worst of all, the test is specifying this strange test fixture where the batteries are placed in the external battery box, while the GPS is attached to the fixture with the native battery compartment inaccessible.  This test fixture seems to be strangely necessary to produce result Batteroo is reporting. 

When these GPS devices are tested doing the thunderingly obvious, placing the batteries into the device's battery compartment and measuring the voltage at the device battery terminals, a completely different result is obtained. 

Lastly, this "report" excerpt appears to be Photoshopped.  The UL logo looks like it was copied off somewhere else, the white background is different that the white background of this "report."  If this really was excerpted from the real report, the entire white background would have the same tint. 

Oh, and by the way Bob, you spelled "battery" wrong.   I'm pretty certain the UL uses spell check. :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 05, 2015, 04:13:57 am

Not sure but would the report or any evidence of it appear when searched on this site:

http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/cgifind/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.html (http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/cgifind/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 04:16:36 am

Ha, I didn't even notice the spelling error.  That's hilarious.

I have my test setup nearly identical to theirs (even measuring the voltage at the external battery box) and it's still going as we speak and it's at 5 hr 30 min and still at 2.46v under load. (when I tested with bench supply, the unit shut off at 2.1v so we still have another hour or two to go) 

I'm doubting that was really tested by UL.  Perhaps UL tested for something else and batteriser is doing what they do best and using smoke and mirrors tactics to associate UL's testing with their GPS findings to convince people they're legit results.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 05, 2015, 04:21:02 am

They continue to dig their hole deeper and deeper... Wrongness on so many levels boggles the mind.

(http://i.imgur.com/VyngADK.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/egMI8dw.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/TwWFfhV.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/U9ITRHA.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on September 05, 2015, 04:22:26 am

I've submitted a product report to UL, we'll see if they believe this is a valid use of their mark.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 04:23:18 am

Quote from: PeterL on September 04, 2015, 08:42:19 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 04, 2015, 08:19:45 pm

1.5V @ 150mA is 225mW of power.

I think the average current draw is closer to 135 mA, the with of the spikes is not to scale here so you cannot really tell. But 135mA gives a power closer to 200mW per cell. And with that they should get some 13 hours, since they go down to 0.5V cell voltage.
And then you get closer to 77% effecient.

You may be right. That graph doesn't show enough detail to be sure.

I'm a bit surprised it's that high with such a small inductor and claims that it can provide "as much current as the battery can supply". High current capability normally sacrifices efficiency at lower currents.

But, whatever... I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. The reason they're using the GPS might be because it's at the sweet spot on the performance curve.

Let's be generous and call it 80%.

Throwing away 20% of the battery's energy inside the Batteriser isn't good for their claims of 'extended battery life'.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 04:26:42 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 04:16:36 am

Ha, I didn't even notice the spelling error.  That's hilarious.

They used a batter holder in the test?

Maybe the cutout logo in the batteriser can be used to filter the lumps out of the batter before they put it on their fish.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 04:28:20 am

Quote from: edy on September 05, 2015, 04:13:57 am

Not sure but would the report or any evidence of it appear when searched on this site:

Yes. That's the entire point of UL certification - that you can verify the "UL" stamp on the back of your device.

OTOH this is some sort of weird certification so who knows?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on September 05, 2015, 04:29:37 am

Read closely and you'll see the very good reason they're stuck on this particular device. They're testing to either shutdown OR a battery message pops up on screen. We know this particular GPS pops up a battery warning when its barely used any battery at all, and continues to function for many hours afterward. A boost converter wouldn't make the device run any longer, but it WOULD prevent the battery message.

Its yet more slight of hand.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 04:32:00 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 04:09:02 am

Lastly, this "report" excerpt appears to be Photoshopped.  The UL logo looks like it was copied off somewhere else, the white background is different that the white background of this "report."  If this really was excerpted from the real report, the entire white background would have the same tint. 

Oh, and by the way Bob, you spelled "battery" wrong.   I'm pretty certain the UL uses spell check. :palm:

They might have just done that until the UL paperwork arrives in the post.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 04:32:15 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 04:26:42 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 04:16:36 am

Ha, I didn't even notice the spelling error.  That's hilarious.

They used a batter holder in the test?

Maybe the cutout logo in the batteriser can be used to filter the lumps out of the batter before they put it on their fish.

Yup.  Watch the vid, it's only two minutes long: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 04:40:30 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 04:32:15 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 04:26:42 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 04:16:36 am

Ha, I didn't even notice the spelling error.  That's hilarious.

They used a batter holder in the test?

Maybe the cutout logo in the batteriser can be used to filter the lumps out of the batter before they put it on their fish.

Yup.  Watch the vid, it's only two minutes long:

Didn't see any batter holders in there...
(http://www.chefscatalog.com/img/products/285x285/11377_285.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 05, 2015, 04:42:08 am

All of these dishonest and shady business practices notwithstanding:

They say that the reason or motivation for doing this is because they care about the environment (not because they want to make bucketloads of cash).

If that's so, and they care about the environment and not money, they SHOULD be promoting the use of NiMH cells and not Alkaline primaries.
Even if everyone got slightly more battery life out of their Alkaline cells, they're still using single use Alkaline cells, and then throwing them away.
It doesn't solve the problem, even if their pie in the sky claims were true.

I almost exclusively use rechargable batteries (built-in rechargeables, 18650's or eneloops) in anything that runs on batteries.
So yes, those still get thrown away eventually, but only after being reused usually hundreds of times.
THAT's better for the environment than using single shot Alkalines, but of course, that's not giving anyone a product that will make my bank account fat. Except Panasonic I suppose.

Maybe the Bobby/Frankie team should have designed a more energy efficient AA NiMH charger... Oh but that way they couldn't make lots of quick money from average non-electronics-minded people.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 04:44:59 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 04:40:30 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 04:32:15 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 04:26:42 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 04:16:36 am

Ha, I didn't even notice the spelling error.  That's hilarious.

They used a batter holder in the test?

Maybe the cutout logo in the batteriser can be used to filter the lumps out of the batter before they put it on their fish.

Yup.  Watch the vid, it's only two minutes long:

Didn't see any batter holders in there...
(http://www.chefscatalog.com/img/products/285x285/11377_285.jpg)

Touché.  I need to learn to read more carefully  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 04:47:01 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 04:09:02 am

When these GPS devices are tested doing the thunderingly obvious

Batteroo have never done the thunderingly obvious in any of their tests. What are they hiding? The only answer is that Batteriser will give shorter battery lifetimes on nearly everything.

ie. They were relying on cognitive dissonance in the buyers until the pesky engineers turned up and started asking questions.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 05:01:35 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 04:32:00 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 04:09:02 am

Lastly, this "report" excerpt appears to be Photoshopped.  The UL logo looks like it was copied off somewhere else, the white background is different that the white background of this "report."  If this really was excerpted from the real report, the entire white background would have the same tint. 

Oh, and by the way Bob, you spelled "battery" wrong.   I'm pretty certain the UL uses spell check. :palm:

They might have just done that until the UL paperwork arrives in the post.

Copying the UL logo on to a document that is not generated by UL, could constitute both trademark infringement and fraud.  Batteroo needs to provide this report post-haste, in full, and unredacted.  If the report is complete on UL's side, Batteroo should surely have the PDF for it in-hand.  Electronic delivery is a normal delivery method, with hard-copies for record-keeping following in the mail.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 05, 2015, 05:04:27 am

With their best flawed 'longevity test', they only mustered a 6x extension. Where does that 8x battery life extension statement come from, if not from thin air? And these people are qualified engineers?  ::)
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)

'UL, one of the oldest and most presitigious independent Labs' Don't they have spell check software at Batteroo?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 05, 2015, 05:10:33 am

It takes 3 to 4 months, at the earliest, to obtain test results at UL labs, according to their site.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 05:11:02 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 05, 2015, 05:04:27 am

With their best flawed 'longevity test', they only mustered a 6x extension. Where does that 8x battery life extension statement come from, if not from thin air?
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)

'UL, one of the oldest and most presitigious independent Labs' Don't they have spell check software at Batteroo?

Preserved for posterity.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 05:18:04 am

I'm about to hit 7 hour mark and the GPS is still going in alkaline mode and the loaded voltage is at 2.49v.  They HAD to have stopped their test when the screen dimmed and called that "stopped working".

Funny thing is, you can get around that by changing battery type to nimh or lipo.  The only thing that changes is it disables the screen dimming at 2.6v, and it changes the voltage where the unit tells you the battery is low.  Other than that, you could use that to circumvent the screen dimming.  And without the losses of the batteriser's boost converter, I'm sure you could go as long if not longer. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 05, 2015, 05:18:57 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 05, 2015, 05:10:33 am

It takes 3 to 4 months, at the earliest, to obtain test results at UL labs, according to their site.

I know... I sent Dave a message to this effect the other day.

One of our customers, it took them 12 months to get their product through...

But don't worry, Batteriser can do anything! 3 days for UL approval? no worries!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 05, 2015, 05:19:19 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 05:11:02 am

Preserved for posterity.

Or perhaps....  positerity... :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 05, 2015, 05:23:36 am

So the key to the whole test result is in the wording where they say: "Test is terminated when... GPS unit displays a Low Battery Power message".
Personally, I dispute that that message is really a low battery power message, but that's what they're using as their loophole.

Now, on that note, I have a great idea for a new invention (because that's the sort of genius I am, just like Frankie)...
It's a device that you install in cars and it disables the fuel warning light (using amazing new wire snips that I've invented).
So I will do a test, driving the car until either it stops going or the fuel light comes on.
First I'll do the test without my new genius invention installed. I'll stop when the fuel light comes on.
Then, I'll do the test with my invention; let's call it CARRRERRISER!; installed. The test stops when the car stops going.
This test will prove that CARRRERRISER! gives many cars 8 times more travel per tank of fuel.
(NB. CARRRERRISER! does not give some cars 8 times more travel, your milage may vary. For instance, in Australia you may use Kms.)
....
PROFIT!!!!

EDIT: Hmm, now all I need to do is make some Apple-esque ad videos with smooth music in the background, and some guys sitting on stools talking about how fuel lights are such a worldwide problem, and ideally some pretty girls demonstrating my product in action! I'll be a hundred-aire in no time!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 05, 2015, 05:24:37 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 04:16:36 am

I have my test setup nearly identical to theirs (even measuring the voltage at the external battery box) and it's still going as we speak and it's at 5 hr 30 min and still at 2.46v under load. (when I tested with bench supply, the unit shut off at 2.1v so we still have another hour or two to go) 

This discrepancy between your results and theirs seems to indicate a problem with their test setup.  As they're measuring voltage and current, the burden voltage of their current measuring must be the cause.  They have both a Dataq and a Hantek USB device connected to the laptop, so it may be worth checking up on the burden voltage in current measurement on those, although I wouldn't put it past them either setting the current range to maximise burden voltage, or be using an external shunt to do the same.  Hard to tell in that mess of wires/probes/labels, but I think the Dataq is doing the current measurement.

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 04:16:36 am

I'm doubting that was really tested by UL.  Perhaps UL tested for something else and batteriser is doing what they do best and using smoke and mirrors tactics to associate UL's testing with their GPS findings to convince people they're legit results.

It is possible that the Roohparvar's have contacts at UL from their previous business relationships and got this done as a special favour and fast tracked.  Doesn't mean it was done as an official test and that UL will put their backing behind it.  It certainly appears that Batteroo provided the test jig and procedure, and all UL would have done was operate a stop watch.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 05, 2015, 05:24:42 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 05, 2015, 05:18:57 am

But don't worry, Batteriser can do anything! 3 days for UL approval? no worries!

I know, it's not the "UL" we are thinking. They are using "Uken's Lavatory"... errr.."Laboratory". That's it!  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 05:39:18 am

Quote from: Kean on September 05, 2015, 05:24:37 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 04:16:36 am

I have my test setup nearly identical to theirs (even measuring the voltage at the external battery box) and it's still going as we speak and it's at 5 hr 30 min and still at 2.46v under load. (when I tested with bench supply, the unit shut off at 2.1v so we still have another hour or two to go) 

This discrepancy between your results and theirs seems to indicate a problem with their test setup.

At this point, this unusual result would appear to be - let us call it - a *feature* of Batteroo's test setup. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 05, 2015, 05:40:31 am

Quote from: samgab on September 05, 2015, 05:23:36 am

So the key to the whole test result is in the wording where they say: "Test is terminated when... GPS unit displays a Low Battery Power message".
Personally, I dispute that that message is really a low battery power message, but that's what they're using as their loophole.

Yes, anything funky with their test jig or procedure (i.e. treating that backlight message as a low battery warning) would be reproduced by a test lab strictly following a customer supplied procedure.  Having two different test termination modes invalidates the test procedure as you point out.

Again this test just shows how their product pretty much just disables the battery "fuel gauge" on most devices.

And yes, the set of batteries from the non-batteriser test would still have a bunch of remaining energy, but only because they aborted the test early.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 05, 2015, 05:43:53 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 05:39:18 am

Quote from: Kean on September 05, 2015, 05:24:37 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 04:16:36 am

I have my test setup nearly identical to theirs (even measuring the voltage at the external battery box) and it's still going as we speak and it's at 5 hr 30 min and still at 2.46v under load. (when I tested with bench supply, the unit shut off at 2.1v so we still have another hour or two to go) 

This discrepancy between your results and theirs seems to indicate a problem with their test setup.

At this point, this unusual result would appear to be - let us call it - a *feature* of Batteroo's test setup.

Yes, but possibly a *feature* of their test protocol, rather than the jig.

I just read in your other posts that your auto-tapping device might have OK'd that backlight warning message - but if it did, wouldn't the backlight have been disabled at that point?  In the other discussions on this Garmin device I don't recall mention of backlight dimming, just backlight on or off.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 05:46:37 am

Another classic quote from our friend Bob:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=169533;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on September 05, 2015, 05:50:32 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 04:09:02 am

UL does indeed test the claims of device manufacturers.  It is not what they are normally known for, but it is a service UL provides.

yes
http://services.ul.com/service/energy-efficiency-testing/ (http://services.ul.com/service/energy-efficiency-testing/)
http://services.ul.com/service/energy-efficiency-certification/ (http://services.ul.com/service/energy-efficiency-certification/)

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 04:09:02 am

Lastly, this "report" excerpt appears to be Photoshopped.  The UL logo looks like it was copied off somewhere else, the white background is different that the white background of this "report."  If this really was excerpted from the real report, the entire white background would have the same tint. 

http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=b0a5d6bdde9f967a695293e74f9b9c0614f09728.45526 (http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=b0a5d6bdde9f967a695293e74f9b9c0614f09728.45526)
and real thing
http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=738f46338f36c56b7f3d8d4db28b83a5009dcadc.15552 (http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=738f46338f36c56b7f3d8d4db28b83a5009dcadc.15552)

logo is wrong color (official is pantone 485, not pink), copy pasted with background from another jpeg, and whole formatting with results in smaller font is a joke. Either its a fake made by batteriser themselves, or produced by a third party dodgy 'UL certification service' in India/China.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 05:50:44 am

Quote from: Kean on September 05, 2015, 05:43:53 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 05:39:18 am

Quote from: Kean on September 05, 2015, 05:24:37 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 04:16:36 am

I have my test setup nearly identical to theirs (even measuring the voltage at the external battery box) and it's still going as we speak and it's at 5 hr 30 min and still at 2.46v under load. (when I tested with bench supply, the unit shut off at 2.1v so we still have another hour or two to go) 

This discrepancy between your results and theirs seems to indicate a problem with their test setup.

At this point, this unusual result would appear to be - let us call it - a *feature* of Batteroo's test setup.

Yes, but possibly a *feature* of their test protocol, rather than the jig.

I just read in your other posts that your auto-tapping device might have OK'd that backlight warning message - but if it did, wouldn't the backlight have been disabled at that point?  In the other discussions on this Garmin device I don't recall mention of backlight dimming, just backlight on or off.

5ky is testing the Approach G3.

I previously tested an eTrex 20, and with that unit, I was able to lock the backlight on 100% for the duration of the test.  My unit ran over 13 hours with everything turned on. 

I wish these external battery holders were not part of the test.  I understand the desire to replicate Batteroo's so-called "test", but we really need to eliminate all the extra contact and lead resistances and let the device operate normally and just monitor the battery voltage so that we can see the device shut itself off. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 05:50:49 am

Quote from: Kean on September 05, 2015, 05:43:53 am

I just read in your other posts that your auto-tapping device might have OK'd that backlight warning message - but if it did, wouldn't the backlight have been disabled at that point?

It doesn't disable it, it just doesn't run at "full brightness".

This appears to be Batteroo's criteria for terminating the test. When they say "the screen dimmed" they don't mean it went black, it just went down a notch.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 05, 2015, 05:53:26 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 05:46:37 am

Another classic quote from our friend Bob:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=169533;image)

That is just moronic!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 05:56:03 am

Quote from: Kean on September 05, 2015, 05:43:53 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 05:39:18 am

Quote from: Kean on September 05, 2015, 05:24:37 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 04:16:36 am

I have my test setup nearly identical to theirs (even measuring the voltage at the external battery box) and it's still going as we speak and it's at 5 hr 30 min and still at 2.46v under load. (when I tested with bench supply, the unit shut off at 2.1v so we still have another hour or two to go) 

This discrepancy between your results and theirs seems to indicate a problem with their test setup.

At this point, this unusual result would appear to be - let us call it - a *feature* of Batteroo's test setup.

Yes, but possibly a *feature* of their test protocol, rather than the jig.

I just read in your other posts that your auto-tapping device might have OK'd that backlight warning message - but if it did, wouldn't the backlight have been disabled at that point?  In the other discussions on this Garmin device I don't recall mention of backlight dimming, just backlight on or off.

I just turned the lights off and the display is definitely being backlit.  I believe it dims it.  (though in direct sunlight, it's VERY readable.  it uses reflected light and looks similar to color e-ink.  not sure how they pulled it off but it works great--my other garmin I use on float trips and I leave it on ALL day and it's crisp and clear in direct sunlight with no backlight)

Once it hits 2.6v it dims the backlight.  Even if you're on alkalines, you could set the battery mode to lipo or nimh to get around that.

It's at 7 hr 17 min @ 2.49v.  Still going strong!  Means it should still have ~390 mV until cutoff voltage.  It does spike a lot (in both directions) so it might dip below the theshold and shut off before it's completely down to 2.1v, but we'll find out in a couple hours.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 05:59:42 am

Quote from: Rasz on September 05, 2015, 05:50:32 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 04:09:02 am

UL does indeed test the claims of device manufacturers.  It is not what they are normally known for, but it is a service UL provides.

yes
http://services.ul.com/service/energy-efficiency-testing/ (http://services.ul.com/service/energy-efficiency-testing/)
http://services.ul.com/service/energy-efficiency-certification/ (http://services.ul.com/service/energy-efficiency-certification/)

That's for certified compliance with contractual requirements. ie. You have a customer with a certain requirement, UL will certify that you meet that requirement.

What contractual requirements is Batteriser meeting?

I guess if the 'contract' on their web site is "devices only use 20% of their batteries" then UL could certify that the batteries lasted 5x longer in the rigged GPS test.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 06:07:48 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 05:59:42 am

Quote from: Rasz on September 05, 2015, 05:50:32 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 04:09:02 am

UL does indeed test the claims of device manufacturers.  It is not what they are normally known for, but it is a service UL provides.

yes
http://services.ul.com/service/energy-efficiency-testing/ (http://services.ul.com/service/energy-efficiency-testing/)
http://services.ul.com/service/energy-efficiency-certification/ (http://services.ul.com/service/energy-efficiency-certification/)

That's for certified compliance with contractual requirements. ie. You have a customer with a certain requirement, UL will certify that you meet that requirement.

What contractual requirements is Batteriser meeting?

I guess if the 'contract' on their web site is "devices only use 20% of their batteries" then UL could certify that the batteries lasted 5x longer in the rigged GPS test.

This is likely the division that Batteroo supposedly worked with:

http://services.ul.com/service/claims-testing/ (http://services.ul.com/service/claims-testing/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bills on September 05, 2015, 06:08:38 am

Quote from: Kean on September 05, 2015, 05:53:26 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 05:46:37 am

Another classic quote from our friend Bob:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=169533;image)

That is just moronic!

Well that solves it for me, Now I know what to do with all the old batteries ( correct spelling ) that I have been saving for the last few years. I have  one that is 70+ years old it's a 22.5 volt and still reads 22.5 v. open circuit 0 v with any load.  I have tried to recharge it
no change....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 06:11:04 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 05:56:03 am

Once it hits 2.6v it dims the backlight.

Mystery solved!

We now know why they chose that particular GPS and why they say "the screen dims to dark" in the video.

(although they do say "stop functioning" as well...which is a complete lie)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c&t=1m04s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c&t=1m04s)

So it looks like all this is carefully planned/orchestrated from the start:
a) The GPS test gives the 5x battery life Batteroo has been claiming since day 1.
b) UL could certify that figure for them, so long as this is the only Batteriser test that UL does.

(UL might be a bit angry when they figure out what's really going on).

Quote from: Kean on September 05, 2015, 05:24:37 am

It is possible that the Roohparvar's have contacts at UL from their previous business relationships and got this done as a special favour and fast tracked.  Doesn't mean it was done as an official test and that UL will put their backing behind it.  It certainly appears that Batteroo provided the test jig and procedure, and all UL would have done was operate a stop watch.

Why fast tracked? That GPS jig could be two years old for all we know.

But yeah, you'd think they'd have something better than a badly photoshopped image to show us.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 06:14:00 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 06:11:04 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 05:56:03 am

Once it hits 2.6v it dims the backlight.

Mystery solved!

We now know why they chose that particular GPS and why they say "the screen dims to dark" in the video.

(although they do say "stop functioning" as well...which is a complete lie)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c&t=1m04s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c&t=1m04s)

So all this is carefully planned/orchestrated:
a) The GPS test gives the 5x battery life they're been claiming since day 1.
b) UL could certify that figure for them, so long as this is the only Batteriser test that UL does.

(UL might be a bit angry when they figure out what's really going on).

you would think folks like UL would test it themselves instead of watching a video of someone test something and say "OK PUT OUR UL STAMP ON IT, THAT'LL BE $1,500,000 PLEASE N THANKS"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on September 05, 2015, 06:19:03 am

I'd have though that a reputable test house like UL would include more details in test reports.Like date of test, tester name, site where test was conducted.
Maybe it's on other pages (buy you'd expect pages to be numbered), in which case why only publish one page?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 06:19:27 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 06:14:00 am

you would think folks like UL would test it themselves instead of watching a video of someone test something and say "OK PUT OUR UL STAMP ON IT, THAT'LL BE $1,500,000 PLEASE N THANKS"

I think UL took the money and did exactly what Batteroo told them to do.  In that case, the result would have been the same, incorrect result that Batteroo has been promoting.  I doubt that UL was given the latitude to design their own test.  It's unfortunate that UL will now be used as a proxy to promote these ridiculous claims. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 06:23:39 am

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 05, 2015, 06:19:03 am

I'd have though that a reputable test house like UL would include more details in test reports.Like date of test, tester name, site where test was conducted.
Maybe it's on other pages (buy you'd expect pages to be numbered), in which case why only publish one page?

That image is very fishy.

Surely UL gives people an official certificate with signatures, rubber stamp, etc.  (has anybody here done UL certification?)

...and surely Batteroo would publish that if they had it, not a badly photoshopped image of their test protocol.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 05, 2015, 06:24:17 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 05:56:03 am

I just turned the lights off and the display is definitely being backlit.  I believe it dims it.

Hmmm... I wonder if Batteroo's Garmin device has old firmware that didn't do dimming.  I did a bit of searching, but couldn't find a history of firmware changes (apparently you have to use their WebUpdater software to check for and get firmware updates).  On the off-chance there is any Garmin staff reading this, it would be great if you could find out if this is an area that has changed/improved on the Approach G3 firmware.

Oh, I just found this firmware change history, but it is pretty old (version 2.50 as of August 5, 2011)
http://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=4887 (http://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=4887)

@5ky can you check what firmware your unit has (when you've finished the current tests)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 05, 2015, 06:28:19 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 06:11:04 am

Why fast tracked? That GPS jig could be two years old for all we know.

Because they've only just shown this "report".  Surely if they had such a report it would have been featured heavily in the campaign.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 05, 2015, 06:30:47 am

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 05, 2015, 06:19:03 am

I'd have though that a reputable test house like UL would include more details in test reports.Like date of test, tester name, site where test was conducted.
Maybe it's on other pages (buy you'd expect pages to be numbered), in which case why only publish one page?

Agreed, an official test report would typically have all that and photos of the test setup, and quite possibly info on any equipment used (e.g. stop watch) and when it was last calibrated  :-DD
(maybe they want to keep some info confidential, but that just isn't appropriate in this instance - they have the burden of proof)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 05, 2015, 06:33:55 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 05:50:49 am

Quote from: Kean on September 05, 2015, 05:43:53 am

I just read in your other posts that your auto-tapping device might have OK'd that backlight warning message - but if it did, wouldn't the backlight have been disabled at that point?

It doesn't disable it, it just doesn't run at "full brightness".

This appears to be Batteroo's criteria for terminating the test. When they say "the screen dimmed" they don't mean it went black, it just went down a notch.

Thanks, my mistake.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 06:41:00 am

I hope no one is using a stop watch to do this test.  All one has to do is log the voltage.  The voltage will rise as soon as the device shuts off.  Read off the timestamp, done. 

More free consulting for you Bob, enjoy. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 06:47:54 am

Quote from: Kean on September 05, 2015, 06:28:19 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 06:11:04 am

Why fast tracked? That GPS jig could be two years old for all we know.

Because they've only just shown this "report".  Surely if they had such a report it would have been featured heavily in the campaign.

They might have planned on having it earlier but it only just arrived.

(maybe this is why they extended the IndieGoGo campaign....give them a chance to go around waving this report in people's faces)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 05, 2015, 06:56:39 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 06:47:54 am

Quote from: Kean on September 05, 2015, 06:28:19 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 06:11:04 am

Why fast tracked? That GPS jig could be two years old for all we know.

Because they've only just shown this "report".  Surely if they had such a report it would have been featured heavily in the campaign.

They might have planned on having it earlier but it only just arrived.

(maybe this is why they extended the IndieGoGo campaign....give them a chance to go around waving this report in people's faces)

They only decided they probably should look into it when a member of the public suggested it to them.

At first, they were saying they didn't need any approvals.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 05, 2015, 06:57:15 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 06:41:00 am

I hope no one is using a stop watch to do this test.  All one has to do is log the voltage.  The voltage will rise as soon as the device shuts off.  Read off the timestamp, done. 

The single page report they've shown just mentions "Record the time it took..."
A real test report (and test protocol) would hopefully specify how to measure the time.  For someone who knows nothing about the expected results, they wouldn't know if it was to be measured in nanoseconds or light-years!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 07:05:23 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 06:47:54 am

Quote from: Kean on September 05, 2015, 06:28:19 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 06:11:04 am

Why fast tracked? That GPS jig could be two years old for all we know.

Because they've only just shown this "report".  Surely if they had such a report it would have been featured heavily in the campaign.

They might have planned on having it earlier but it only just arrived.

(maybe this is why they extended the IndieGoGo campaign....give them a chance to go around waving this report in people's faces)

They extended the campaign because they need cash, badly.  If they had gotten the orders they had planned from major retailers, they could have used those as collateral for all the components and tooling they will have to pony up for.  That didn't happen.  Worse, it seems that SK Telecom is pissed off and just packed Batteroo's Board of Directors with their own people.  And that UL report isn't for you and me.  It's for SK Telecom, and for the retail channel partners that just walked. 

Batteroo just put themselves into the same trap a lot of small electronics companies do.  They always request quotes using fluffed up volumes, which give unrealistic BOM costs.  When the orders actually arrive, the volumes are lower, much lower than planned, and the pricing ends up on a much higher tier.  The client will try to order based on the high volume pricing, but smart CMs will generally not fall for that trap.  Worse yet, they have a custom clip, inductor, and IC, none of which are useful to the CM if Batteroo disappears.  So the CM is going to make Batteroo pony up for that inventory up front. 

Batteroo is really in a jam right now.  If they were smart, really smart, they'd refund the IGG backers right now.  I have no idea how they can ship at this point without losing money. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: free_electron on September 05, 2015, 07:34:45 am

has anyone looked at building such a thing ?

i did some sleuthing and there is this picture i found

looking for boost converters in that package and the current needed , the only two chips that come close to this are the analog devices ADP1607 and semtech SC121 . all others are too low current.

356K and 1 meg in the feedback gives 1.4 volts output voltage for this circuit .. package fits their design ...

i think we have a winner.

maybe time for a little building of this thing and trying it out ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on September 05, 2015, 07:57:32 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 04, 2015, 05:05:11 am

I'll hit the 3 hour mark in 9 minutes and the thing is still going and the backlight hasn't even dimmed yet.  It's currently at 2.63v under load.  In their video, theirs supposedly completely died before it got to the 2 hour mark.  Their graph also shows a drop in current at about 1 hr 40 min, which I'd assume is the screen dimming at 2.6v.  That means they started the test with a not-so-fresh battery considering mine is about to hit 3 hours and still hasn't dimmed yet.   :popcorn:

EDIT: I forgot to mention, agilent's benchvue software limits datalogs to 1 hour each if you have the "free" version (paid one is $200).  Those cheap bastards.  I would've been better off using the same arduino that's controlling the servo to datalog to an SD card  |O

Is your hardware Sigrok compatible? It could be a good alternative.

Quote from: samgab on September 05, 2015, 12:21:48 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 04, 2015, 10:52:10 pm

I had it set to Alkaline and I never saw the brightness message even after the four hours, but since I have the servo hit the screen right where that "ok" button is (intentionally), I never saw it.  It didn't appear to have dimmed yet, however.  When testing with my bench power supply it dimmed at 1.3v per cell, and when I stopped last night, it was at 1.275v per cell, so I'm not sure if perhaps it just hadn't triggered the warning yet or not, but the message matches the one on their video (which you can somewhat read if you pause it at the right time) when it does appear.  I just got a fresh pair started and since it's early and I don't work tomorrow, this test will go until the GPS shuts itself off.  (and I installed an older version of the Agilent DMM software that doesn't have a time limit so I shouldn't have to hit start every hour this time.  Will post video/results when I'm done so people can see how BS their marketing videos really are.

Thanks heaps for all your testing. Would it be possible to take a clear photo of that message that comes up about the Alaline batteries, so we know verbatim what it is actually saying there. I have the gist of it, but I'd like to see exactly what the message is. Cheers! EDIT: Don't worry about that, I found the post in here where the message is quoted verbatim. Never mind!

To everyone:
I recommend having a good look at this chap HKJ's website here:
http://lygte-info.dk/info/batteryEnergyAtLowVoltage%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/info/batteryEnergyAtLowVoltage%20UK.html)

He does excellent testing of flashlights, chargers, DMMs, and cells (Alkaline, NiMH, and Li-ion).
The page I linked is where he checks how much energy really is left in Alkaline cells (He uses Duracell Plus Power), when under various constant power loads as the voltage decreases. The results are very interesting. I like all of HKJ's tests. He's very thorough, and seems to use proper scientific method. He's a member of flashlight forums like CPF, but I'm not sure if he's around on this forum. I hope he chimes in though if he is on this forum!
Anyway, I hope he doesn't mind, but I'll show a couple of his result charts and tables below, but I really recommend checking the full website article linked above.
(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/batteryEnergyLowVoltage/Duracell%20Plus%20Power%20AA-discharge-1.0W%20remaning%20energy%20zoom.png)
(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/batteryEnergyLowVoltage/Duracell%20Plus%20Power%20AA-discharge-0.5W%20remaning%20energy%20zoom.png)
(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/batteryEnergyLowVoltage/Duracell%20Plus%20Power%20AA-discharge-0.2W%20remaning%20energy%20zoom.png)

And the overall results of testing:
(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/batteryEnergyLowVoltage/RemaningEnergy.png)

Does he know about Batteriser? Please invite him to this forum thread ;)

Quote from: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 04:32:00 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 04:09:02 am

Lastly, this "report" excerpt appears to be Photoshopped.  The UL logo looks like it was copied off somewhere else, the white background is different that the white background of this "report."  If this really was excerpted from the real report, the entire white background would have the same tint. 

Oh, and by the way Bob, you spelled "battery" wrong.   I'm pretty certain the UL uses spell check. :palm:

They might have just done that until the UL paperwork arrives in the post.

Maybe someone should inform UL about this.

Who knows, maybe this scam involve false claims about UL testing the product. This could make them even more shameful than right now and UL would do anything to save their reputation if this company cares about it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 05, 2015, 08:01:01 am

Hey, here's a challenge.
Let's take bets on what off-the-shelf step-up dc-dc converter IC they've used in this thing?

It has to be in a tiny package, has to operate down to 0.6V Input, has to be able to output 1.6V, and has to have good current handling capabilities, and really good efficiency even at low input voltage, plus it must be available in large quantities, and must be very cheap...

I can't figure it out, but I thought something like this: http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/35392fc.pdf (http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/35392fc.pdf)
Although that doesn't meet ALL of the requirements. I think the package may be too big, and it can't handle enough current.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 08:04:05 am

Quote from: free_electron on September 05, 2015, 07:34:45 am

has anyone looked at building such a thing ?

i did some sleuthing and there is this picture i found

looking for boost converters in that package and the current needed , the only two chips that come close to this are the analog devices ADP1607 and semtech SC121 . all others are too low current.

356K and 1 meg in the feedback gives 1.4 volts output voltage for this circuit .. package fits their design ...

i think we have a winner.

maybe time for a little building of this thing and trying it out ?

If I remember correctly they stated to have designed their own silicon.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 05, 2015, 08:04:27 am

Quote from: Circuiteromalaguito on September 05, 2015, 07:57:32 am

...Does he know about Batteriser? Please invite him to this forum thread ;)

Yeah, he knows something about it, because he comments on it at the bottom of the webpage of his I linked to with the low voltage testing of Alkaline cells, and because there was some superficial discussion of it on the CPF forums, but I'm not sure if he's aware of the whole débâcle.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 05, 2015, 08:06:11 am

Quote from: free_electron on September 05, 2015, 07:34:45 am

looking for boost converters in that package and the current needed , the only two chips that come close to this are the analog devices ADP1607 and semtech SC121 . all others are too low current.

Both of those are specified for 1.8V minimum output, and 0.8V or 0.7V minimum inputs respectively (with even higher minimum startup voltages).
Performance graphs also indicate much lower output currents, with the SC121 only specced to 250mA out in certain conditions, and on a single cell ADP1607 is about the same.

Not that I would put it past these guys either running the device outside guaranteed specification, or fudging the figures.  I believe the 1.8V output does correlate with some details in the patent.
But as mentioned by firewalker, they did state they have their own silicon ( :bullshit:)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 08:07:07 am

@5ky. What firmware your device run? The message is contained to the firmware ApproachG5_WebUpdater__370.gcd.

Alexander.
 .

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 05, 2015, 08:12:51 am

Quote from: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 08:04:05 am

...If I remember correctly they stated to have designed their own silicon.

Alexander.

There's no way. The costs would be prohibitive for such a small scale operation. The person claiming they made their own silicon is that lunatic who's been saying he isn't associated with them and has been all over youtube and the various forums posting all kinds of rubbish, and he clearly has no knowledge of electronics at all. Either he is a student who is a friend of the son of the CEO, or he's a person in an office somewhere who's been charged with viral marketing and is making a horrendous hash of it. Either way, I doubt there's any custom IC on this thing. A custom PCB and a custom shell with a jellybean IC, some capacitors, and some resistors is it.
Look at the schematic underneath the prototype:
(https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1437690768/fa3nsmkk4omex8wqjewl.png)

I see C1, C2, R1, R2, L1, and U1. That's about it. I bet U1 is off-the-shelf.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 08:12:57 am

Unless I missed it, where is the model of the GPS specified in the test?
To have a report that doesn't specify the exact model used seems crazy.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on September 05, 2015, 08:16:04 am

It looks like the sock puppets of Batteriser / Battero are active again at the comment section of the debunk-video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 08:17:26 am

Copy of the UL "report"
UL Project Number:4787059213

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 08:20:14 am

Quote from: Barny on September 05, 2015, 08:16:04 am

It looks like the sock puppets of Batteriser / Battero are active again at the comment section of the debunk-video.

Yup, "Jones David". How original. Joined Sep 1st.
Blocked.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 05, 2015, 08:21:34 am

I found the comment by Bob Roohparvar on IGG about the custom IC - it was in relation to a future rechargeable battery model.
(ignore the highlight, that was just the search term I used after expanding all the comments)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 08:30:52 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 05:18:04 am

I'm about to hit 7 hour mark and the GPS is still going in alkaline mode and the loaded voltage is at 2.49v.  They HAD to have stopped their test when the screen dimmed and called that "stopped working".

Nope, they claim very clearly "shutting down" with further clarification that the "GPS unit shuts down completely"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on September 05, 2015, 08:31:16 am

Quote from: Kean on September 05, 2015, 08:21:34 am

I found the comment by Bob Roohparvar on IGG about the custom IC - it was in relation to a future rechargeable battery model.
(ignore the highlight, that was just the search term I used after expanding all the comments)

He says customized IC, not custom.
My guess is that they just want a bare die, which is not standard and thus 'customized'.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 05, 2015, 08:32:31 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 08:30:52 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 05:18:04 am

I'm about to hit 7 hour mark and the GPS is still going in alkaline mode and the loaded voltage is at 2.49v.  They HAD to have stopped their test when the screen dimmed and called that "stopped working".

Nope, they claim very clearly "shutting down" with further clarification that the "GPS unit shuts down completely"

On the video, I don't think they did... they said it "stopped functioning"

They didn't claim the low battery cut off was activated, or that the batteries were depleted.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 08:34:17 am

Quote from: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 08:07:07 am

@5ky. What firmware your device run? The message is contained to the firmware ApproachG5_WebUpdater__370.gcd.

Alexander.
 .

Not sure but I'll check after the test is done.

By the way, the GPS unit is still going.  It's current at 2.40v at 9 hr 57 min.  I'm going to laugh if this passes their batterised "UL" test

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 08:38:56 am

Quote from: samgab on September 05, 2015, 08:01:01 am

Hey, here's a challenge.
Let's take bets on what off-the-shelf step-up dc-dc converter IC they've used in this thing?

They have stated many times that it's a custom ASIC, and they are supposed to have patent(s) on some of the tech in there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 05, 2015, 08:49:15 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 05, 2015, 08:32:31 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 08:30:52 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 05:18:04 am

I'm about to hit 7 hour mark and the GPS is still going in alkaline mode and the loaded voltage is at 2.49v.  They HAD to have stopped their test when the screen dimmed and called that "stopped working".

Nope, they claim very clearly "shutting down" with further clarification that the "GPS unit shuts down completely"

On the video, I don't think they did... they said it "stopped functioning"

They didn't claim the low battery cut off was activated, or that the batteries were depleted.

Check out the supposed UL report - it definitely states "Test was terminated at ... due to Garmin GPS shutting down."

Edit to add: interestingly the test protocol states "Test is terminated when one of the following occurs: either GPS unit shuts down completely or until the GPS displats a Low Battery Power message".
So the "UL" report can be clearly shown as false, as Batteroo's own video shows it displays a message, and does not shut down completely!   :box:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 09:21:18 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 05, 2015, 08:32:31 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 08:30:52 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 05:18:04 am

I'm about to hit 7 hour mark and the GPS is still going in alkaline mode and the loaded voltage is at 2.49v.  They HAD to have stopped their test when the screen dimmed and called that "stopped working".

Nope, they claim very clearly "shutting down" with further clarification that the "GPS unit shuts down completely"

On the video, I don't think they did... they said it "stopped functioning"
They didn't claim the low battery cut off was activated, or that the batteries were depleted.

I was talking about the UL report.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 05, 2015, 09:23:10 am

Okay, so I'll concede that they claim they've done something custom or customised... I'm not convinced. I mean, if they had a track record of honesty, maybe I'd buy that. Time will tell. I'm really looking forward to some genuine real-world, technical testing and teardowns.  :-DMM

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 09:24:21 am

Quote from: Kean on September 05, 2015, 08:49:15 am

Check out the supposed UL report - it definitely states "Test was terminated at ... due to Garmin GPS shutting down."
Edit to add: interestingly the test protocol states "Test is terminated when one of the following occurs: either GPS unit shuts down completely or until the GPS displats a Low Battery Power message".
So the "UL" report can be clearly shown as false, as Batteroo's own video shows it displays a message, and does not shut down completely!   :box:

Good point.
The Batteriser would obviously just stop functioning with no warning (that's what boost converters like this do), but just the batteries should most certainly have triggered the low battery warning at some point and not just shut off.
So either someone wasn't watching, or something ain't right...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 05, 2015, 09:27:03 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 09:21:18 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 05, 2015, 08:32:31 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 08:30:52 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 05:18:04 am

I'm about to hit 7 hour mark and the GPS is still going in alkaline mode and the loaded voltage is at 2.49v.  They HAD to have stopped their test when the screen dimmed and called that "stopped working".

Nope, they claim very clearly "shutting down" with further clarification that the "GPS unit shuts down completely"

On the video, I don't think they did... they said it "stopped functioning"
They didn't claim the low battery cut off was activated, or that the batteries were depleted.

I was talking about the UL report.

Ignore the "UL report", that wasn't prepared by butteriser  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 09:36:44 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 08:17:26 am

Copy of the UL "report"
UL Project Number:4787059213

I could find no record of the UL "project number" using this search:
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.html?utm_source=ulcom&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=database (http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.html?utm_source=ulcom&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=database)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 05, 2015, 09:42:06 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 09:36:44 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 08:17:26 am

Copy of the UL "report"
UL Project Number:4787059213

I could find no record of the UL "project number" using this search:
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.html?utm_source=ulcom&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=database (http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.html?utm_source=ulcom&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=database)

The UL File Numbers appear to be an "E", followed by six digits.

They appear to currently be in the E476000 range at the moment (of course, the E could stand for something else, so there may be variations)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Quarlo Klobrigney on September 05, 2015, 09:52:34 am

I was going to say before Dave spoke my words.
The "report" that was presented in the jpg doesen't look official, only a report by the BS marketing dept. Where was the screen capture taken form UL or the BS dept?

Quote from: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 09:36:44 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 08:17:26 am

Copy of the UL "report"
UL Project Number:4787059213

I could find no record of the UL "project number" using this search:
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.html?utm_source=ulcom&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=database (http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.html?utm_source=ulcom&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=database)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 05, 2015, 10:02:05 am

Quote from: Quarlo Klobrigney on September 05, 2015, 09:52:34 am

I was going to say before Dave spoke my words.
The "report" that was presented in the jpg doesen't look official, only a report by the BS marketing dept. Where was the screen capture taken form UL or the BS dept?

Quote from: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 09:36:44 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 08:17:26 am

Copy of the UL "report"
UL Project Number:4787059213

I could find no record of the UL "project number" using this search:
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.html?utm_source=ulcom&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=database (http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.html?utm_source=ulcom&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=database)

Aren't they opening themselves up to huge legal ramifications if they are falsifying a UL certification?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 10:07:59 am

Maybe UL tested their experiment setup. That is safe to use a board with a relay and a couple of DMMs.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 10:14:28 am

Well, the stupid GPS is still going, so I think I'm going to go to bed.  Hopefully the logging software doesn't have any memory leaks or anything.

In batteriser's GPS test video, they got 10:12 runtime on duracell AA's. EDIT: that's USING batteriser--it only got 1:50 or so ALLEGEDLY using batteries without batteriser  :bullshit:

I'm currently at 11:36 on duracell AA's.   :palm:

The voltage is still at 2.40v at this moment so I'm sure it'll go for another hour at least.   :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 10:17:09 am

Is the GPS locked on the satellites? I think their device was unable to lock on a signal.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Quarlo Klobrigney on September 05, 2015, 10:22:07 am

"Aren't they opening themselves up to huge legal ramifications if they are falsifying a UL certification?"
Yes depending who the company/corporation is, and location. Good luck with these jokers.
In my past experience, UL just doesn't do anything quickly, i.e. on a piece of plywood.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 05, 2015, 10:23:33 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 10:14:28 am

Well, the stupid GPS is still going, so I think I'm going to go to bed.  Hopefully the logging software doesn't have any memory leaks or anything.

In batteriser's GPS test video, they got 10:12 runtime on duracell AA's. EDIT: that's USING batteriser--it only got 1:50 or so ALLEGEDLY using batteries without batteriser  :bullshit:

I'm currently at 11:36 on duracell AA's.   :palm:

The voltage is still at 2.40v at this moment so I'm sure it'll go for another hour at least.   :popcorn:

Assume 10:12 VS 12:30...

That's a 20% decrease in run time.... you mean, making the power source 20% less efficient results in a 20% shorter run time? who would have thought!  :clap:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 05, 2015, 10:26:37 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 10:14:28 am

Well, the stupid GPS is still going, so I think I'm going to go to bed.  Hopefully the logging software doesn't have any memory leaks or anything.

In batteriser's GPS test video, they got 10:12 runtime on duracell AA's. EDIT: that's USING batteriser--it only got 1:50 or so ALLEGEDLY using batteries without batteriser  :bullshit:

I'm currently at 11:36 on duracell AA's.   :palm:

The voltage is still at 2.40v at this moment so I'm sure it'll go for another hour at least.   :popcorn:

Classic! So not only have you debunked their "2 hours without batteriser, 6 times longer with batteriser" claim, you've actually proven that a Garmin G3 GPS actually runs significantly longer WITHOUT the batteriser product. Good work! Now that fact needs publicity!
(https://igbocybershrine.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/fraud.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Quarlo Klobrigney on September 05, 2015, 10:28:29 am

Albert Einstein:
“Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.”

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 05, 2015, 10:34:50 am

Quote from: PeterL on September 05, 2015, 08:31:16 am

Quote from: Kean on September 05, 2015, 08:21:34 am

I found the comment by Bob Roohparvar on IGG about the custom IC - it was in relation to a future rechargeable battery model.
(ignore the highlight, that was just the search term I used after expanding all the comments)

He says customized IC, not custom.
My guess is that they just want a bare die, which is not standard and thus 'customized'.

My thinking is the customised version for rechargeables would just add an UVLO to avoid excessive discharge.  A relatively small change, but could take time to get fabbed if they hadn't thought of it in advance of the questions on IGG.  If they're using an off the shelf device with UVLO already (e.g. from TI, Linear, etc), they may be able to request a custom trimmed part if they place a large enough order.

Rather than bare die, they'd likely be using some sort of chip-scale package which are quite common now and very low profile.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 10:37:42 am

5ky, yu are testing Approach G3, right? I think they were testing Approach G5. G5 has a bigger screen with bigger resolution.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 05, 2015, 10:43:09 am

Quote from: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 10:37:42 am

5ky, yu are testing Approach G3, right? I think they were testing Approach G5. G5 has a bigger screen with bigger resolution.

Nope, look at their "UL Report". They clearly say it's the G3 that they are testing.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg747370/#msg747370 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg747370/#msg747370)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 05, 2015, 10:43:31 am

Quote from: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 10:37:42 am

5ky, yu are testing Approach G3, right? I think they were testing Approach G5. G5 has a bigger screen with bigger resolution.

Alexander.

I'm certain they were using a G3, this is a comparison pic of the two:

(http://site.tigergps.com/graphics/approachsizer.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 05, 2015, 10:43:35 am

Quote from: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 10:37:42 am

5ky, yu are testing Approach G3, right? I think they were testing Approach G5. G5 has a bigger screen with bigger resolution.

Alexander.

Definitely not a G5. The Approach they use in the video has a slot at the bottom for attaching a carrying strap. The G5 does not.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 10:51:19 am

Yep, you are right. I also located the message to the firmware of G3.

(http://i.imgur.com/Anmk9sy.png)

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 10:51:46 am

Quote from: samgab on September 05, 2015, 10:43:09 am

Nope, look at their "UL Report". They clearly say it's the G3 that they are testing.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg747370/#msg747370 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg747370/#msg747370)

Ah, so it does. Garmin Approach G3 is fully confirmed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 10:52:28 am

Every performance claim by Batteroo has now been completely destroyed. Care to start making some retractions there Bob?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 11:01:24 am

Some people have been suggesting that the UL report could be BS, but I'm pretty sure it's not.
Why?, because it's one thing to sprout marketing BS and exaggerate your products claims, duck and weave, and do cleverly deceptive videos etc, that's not really punishable by anyone. Media, forum people, and all and sundry can punch holes in that ship all they like, and it will still float.
But faking a UL report would be hugely fraudulent, with potentially harsh punishment, and they would know that. If they did it their company would be history, and potentially much worse.
They are not that silly, these are smart industry players. So I'm pretty sure the UL report is real in some way shape or form. But what they have shown is clearly not the entire report, not even a full page.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 11:02:32 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 10:52:28 am

Every performance claim by Batteroo has now been completely destroyed. Care to start making some retractions there Bob?

Nope, he's got a UL report that trumps everything, and they'll ride that show pony all the way into town.

I bet they are now done and won't release any more videos or reply to any more technical claims. They'll keep mum until the dust settles.
They still haven't responded to my video about the paid dislikes, not a peep.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 05, 2015, 11:09:22 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 04, 2015, 07:48:51 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55rohP99_OI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55rohP99_OI)


And can anyone here understand French as it's all Greek to me.

to your service. 5:28 --> 9:13

Quotes, lies, strange things:

5:34 ...I'm talking to parent who put batteries in toys or persons who put batteries in objects....
6:30 ...They multiplicate autonomy by 8x in AVERAGE...
6:38 ...I don't know if it's true...
6:40 ...In an example on their site they show a bluetooth keyboard that indicates 13% and after putting the tool it goes to 100%, It's IMPRESSING... 
7:03 ...what I appreciate a lot also is that the CEO has refused all offers of big businesses like DURACELL and ENERGISER who start to panic because it's gonna take them business profit... million dollars...
7:24 ...planned obsolecency... big companies were able to develop this? Sure, now it's too late, it's patented, much hahaha
8:54 ...I know the subject very well.. in our products alkaline is used... our devices need a voltage of 1.5V... there are devices do not work on rechargable, they need 1.5V, and do not work under that voltage.
9:04 ...change your products so they work till 1.3V hahaha...right, we're working on that hahaha.

I think nobody wants to read the full text, It's stupid beyond what I heard till now.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 11:13:03 am

I also don't believe that there isn't a single chance for the UL thing to be a fake.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 05, 2015, 11:15:04 am

Quote from: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 11:13:03 am

I also don't believe that there isn't a single chance for the UL thing to be a fake.

Alexander.

But it seems they didn't actually get UL approval, they just got UL to repeat their GPS test, using butterisers own test rig.

No one asked for that, and its meaningless, as its already been shown that the GPS will run for just as long, if not longer, without the butteriser...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on September 05, 2015, 11:19:59 am

Another possible theory is that the GPS they're using, and sent to UL, happens to have a defective - or deliberately disabled (and acting as a passthrough) - boost converter. 2xAA at 3V might be just enough to run something expecting 3.3V (a few GPS modules I've looked at specify 3.3V nominal and a 3-3.6V range), but not for long. Adding the Batteriser of course "fixes" this...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 11:21:02 am

It is like I run with another person and I lost. I can ether say:

"I lost, my opponent won."

Or I can say:

"In a race that included my opponent, I finished second and my opponent last but one."

Both statements are true. I guess something similar with the UL thing they presented.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 11:23:32 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 11:02:32 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 10:52:28 am

Every performance claim by Batteroo has now been completely destroyed. Care to start making some retractions there Bob?

Nope, he's got a UL report that trumps everything, and they'll ride that show pony all the way into town.

Well... we have reports of a report of sort.  If there's truly a report in-hand, then they should post the full, un-redacted PDF. I don't doubt that Batteroo did indeed contract UL to do *something*, but it appears only to have been to operate a test fixture that produces an erroneous result by design.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 11:29:40 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 05, 2015, 11:15:04 am

But it seems they didn't actually get UL approval, they just got UL to repeat their GPS test, using butterisers own test rig.
No one asked for that, and its meaningless, as its already been shown that the GPS will run for just as long, if not longer, without the butteriser...

Ah, but you see, that doesn't matter one bit. Only to technical people like us. To everyone else, including their investors, it's like being knighted.
They will trumpet this from every hill top.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 05, 2015, 11:33:59 am

End of the day, it doesn't matter what butteriser say, or what UL come up with, or what firmware the G3 devices are running.
The facts are:

• The G3 is designed by Garmin for golf use.
• Many users who own the device have been using it for a long time, and getting 2+ rounds of golf per Alkaline battery.
• Each round of golf lasts more than 4-5 hours.
• Golfers who bought this and are living with it are clearly getting much more than 2 hours of use out of it, not doing 2 battery changes per round.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 11:35:21 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 11:29:40 am

They will trumpet this from every hill top.

If only they knew the difference between a trumpet and a kazoo...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 05, 2015, 11:36:16 am

Maybe they let the monkey set up the gps test...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on September 05, 2015, 11:37:53 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 05, 2015, 11:15:04 am

Quote from: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 11:13:03 am

I also don't believe that there isn't a single chance for the UL thing to be a fake.

Alexander.

But it seems they didn't actually get UL approval, they just got UL to repeat their GPS test, using butterisers own test rig.

No one asked for that, and its meaningless, as its already been shown that the GPS will run for just as long, if not longer, without the butteriser...

This 'UL test' wasn't done to convince the engineers community in any way of course.

The just wanted a statement that looks very convincing to the crowd.

So UL did a test. It doesn't matter what any more. It's says UL, so it sounds official and that enough. Sure some people are gonna dig in to that, but those people probably won't buy their crap anyway, so why bother.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 11:43:48 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 05, 2015, 10:23:33 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 10:14:28 am

Well, the stupid GPS is still going, so I think I'm going to go to bed.  Hopefully the logging software doesn't have any memory leaks or anything.

In batteriser's GPS test video, they got 10:12 runtime on duracell AA's. EDIT: that's USING batteriser--it only got 1:50 or so ALLEGEDLY using batteries without batteriser  :bullshit:

I'm currently at 11:36 on duracell AA's.   :palm:

The voltage is still at 2.40v at this moment so I'm sure it'll go for another hour at least.   :popcorn:

Assume 10:12 VS 12:30...

That's a 20% decrease in run time.... you mean, making the power source 20% less efficient results in a 20% shorter run time? who would have thought!  :clap:

This fits in with the 75-80% conversion efficiency we calculated for Batteriser earlier.

We also know the GPS only uses 20% of normal batteries before "shutting down" and that it shows the message at 2.6V - this gives us the "1.3V shutdown" of their initial claims.

The whole house of cards is obviously designed around this GPS test. Their initial claims for Batterizer, the UL thingy, everything. The only mystery is why they bothered making that crappy response video with the monkey in it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 05, 2015, 11:55:55 am

If they managed to pull the wool over some eyes at UL Labs with their dodgy test set-up, it would reflect pretty badly on UL certification in general. I hope that the full test report will be available shortly and that the small print will exonerate the testing company of any sloppy practices.

If it transpires that they willfully endorsed a stupid product from a new company that claims their gizmo prolongs the life of spent batteries by 800%, their worldwide reputation would take a serious blow.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 05, 2015, 12:01:19 pm

Quote from: PeterL on September 05, 2015, 11:37:53 am

The just wanted a statement that looks very convincing to the crowd.
So UL did a test. It doesn't matter what any more. It's says UL, so it sounds official and that enough.

I didn't know about UL tests, but it sounds familiar to the TUV tests in Europe.
They only test security, not functionality.
I know about "deionisators', for attaching around fuel lines on cars, saves 'till 12% fuel', that turned out to be magnets in a plastic enclosure, with a TUV stamp.

Quote from: PeterL on September 05, 2015, 11:37:53 am

This 'UL test' wasn't done to convince the engineers community in any way of course.

They never addressed the engineers community till now. They listen, choose some words, make a story around it for their own community.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Quarlo Klobrigney on September 05, 2015, 12:05:48 pm

"Making chinese machines twice as good is very easy. Open it and tighten the screws."
And remove all the Hot Snot and secure everything properly.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 12:08:04 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 11:01:24 am

Some people have been suggesting that the UL report could be BS, but I'm pretty sure it's not.

I'm with you on that, but why the badly photoshopped image?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 12:16:15 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 12:08:04 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 11:01:24 am

Some people have been suggesting that the UL report could be BS, but I'm pretty sure it's not.

I'm with you on that, but why the badly photoshopped image?

Probably because they wanted a single compact image to use in their marketing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 05, 2015, 12:24:22 pm

I have asked UL Labs to provide some information about test # 4787059213. I encourage you to do the same.

47173 Benicia Street
Fremont, CA 94538
U.S.A.
Tel: 510.771.1000
Email:
CustomerExperienceCenter@ul.com

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on September 05, 2015, 12:38:46 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on September 05, 2015, 12:01:19 pm

I didn't know about UL tests, but it sounds familiar to the TUV tests in Europe.
They only test security, not functionality.

I don't know about UL testing either, but from what I read in this thread they seem to offer more than just the certification.

It looks like they just hired some lab space for a day or so, some contract job kinda thing.

Also remember that when asked Bob was very quick saying "We don't need no stinking UL certification", and then just as quick changed it to "we will look into that". I think just there they sprouted the idea of doing a test at the UL labs, it's not about certification or performance, just renting equipment.

And according to their YT-fan they spend many thousands on lawyers. That's probably to figure out how far they can go with claims like these.

Quote from: Galenbo on September 05, 2015, 12:01:19 pm

They never addressed the engineers community till now. They listen, choose some words, make a story around it for their own community.

Who do you think the "Dr. Franky explains it with snails" video was for?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Svuppe on September 05, 2015, 01:28:32 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 04, 2015, 05:12:20 pm

As silly as it sounds, my model can't data log without a computer. I think the 70 model adds that menu option. It can measure voltage and current simultaneously, but I'm not sure if that works while data logging. I might have to try. I'm curious what the burden is on that thing

Are you sure it can measure voltage and current simultaneously? That would be very handy.
Unfortunately, I never heard of this ability. I sure could have used that feature from time to time. Guess I have to go read up on the manual now.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on September 05, 2015, 02:26:09 pm

Apparently we have a big electronics show coming up in a few days down here in Melbourne as Dave pointed out in a recent video and my fashion skills are rather ordinary, so should I go formal with a plain tee shirt or dress it down a bit and plonk some crude advertising on the front and perhaps a monkey on my back.

I expect that Dave will be wearing his shirt of invisibility which we all recently witnessed, just hope it works properly this time around.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=163054;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 05, 2015, 02:51:20 pm

I really think it's time for Dave to get his hands on this Approach G3 and make some comments to the technical video and their recent UL 'certification' / document!

It might be going too far to directly say the document is fake, and I wouldn't encourage Dave to say it. But let's be real, it's fake.

1. It looks nothing like an official document I've ever seen, it has spelling mistakes and awkward grammar.
2. The UL logo is missing the copyright logo.
3. It looks nothing likely any UL report/certification I can find online: http://www.multi-contact.com/AcroFiles/Zertifikate/UL/UL_E351413_CND_%28en%29.pdf (http://www.multi-contact.com/AcroFiles/Zertifikate/UL/UL_E351413_CND_%28en%29.pdf) or http://www.gadgetplusstore.com/sites/default/files/uploads/1274255303%26%2609.jpg (http://www.gadgetplusstore.com/sites/default/files/uploads/1274255303%26%2609.jpg)
4. A company like UL would most definitely use a fixed template.
5. No technical information is listed, no signatures, dates, reference numbers, issueee, etc.
6. It's a screen capture of a Word document (JPG), not PDF.
7. Inconsistent use of language, says the test is terminated when a low battery message is displayed - while at the same time saying the GPS shuts down when the test ends (without batteriser).
etc etc.

Anyone who knows more can give more points I am sure.

The document only makes sense if this is the procedure provided by Batteroo and sent to UL for them to test. i.e. Batteroo's own findings that they want UL to replicate. But then, why the UL logo?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 03:07:15 pm

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on September 05, 2015, 02:51:20 pm

It might be going too far to directly say the document is fake, and I wouldn't encourage Dave to say it. But let's be real, it's fake.

1. It looks nothing like an official document I've ever seen...

Obviously UL didn't issue that document, but that doesn't mean the certification itself isn't real.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 05, 2015, 03:17:30 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 05, 2015, 03:07:15 pm

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on September 05, 2015, 02:51:20 pm

It might be going too far to directly say the document is fake, and I wouldn't encourage Dave to say it. But let's be real, it's fake.

1. It looks nothing like an official document I've ever seen...

Obviously UL didn't issue that document, but that doesn't mean the certification itself isn't real.

Good. We can agree on that. Most comments seemed to suggest it was though.. That was my impression.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on September 05, 2015, 03:22:08 pm

The UL provides a form where you can tell them your concerns for safety OR advertising  :-+

The page starts like this:
"If you would like to report a safety-related concern with a product bearing a UL Mark or an advertising concern, please complete and submit the form below. If any of the fields are not applicable, please enter NA."

So it could be helpful to tell them your concern about the falsified looking document here:
http://ul.com/offerings/market-surveillance/ (http://ul.com/offerings/market-surveillance/)

They also accept pictures. Download it and upload it to the form. Include the link as well (very important)
http://www.batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/UL-pic1.jpg (http://www.batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/UL-pic1.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 03:30:43 pm

If the report is genuine, why not just put up the PDF?  Why fabricate something that obviously was NOT generated by UL? 

Every time Bateroo tries to make themselves seem more legitimate, they end up going in the opposite direction. It is strange to say the least that the "evidence" of this test is actually Batteroo's own test procedure. Why not show UL's *conclusions*? That is what matters.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on September 05, 2015, 03:38:21 pm

there's no way that picture is the original, certainly i would expect to have a multi-page document describing the purpose of the test, some kind of theory, setup, details of the test equipment, results and a conclusion.

it could be the real document has some sensitive information in it which they dont want us to see and they just shopped one up instead

it's a shame the picture shown of the new red batteriser (the latest version) shown on the document is not any clearer as it's the first picture to show the inside of the clip and the underside of the pcb which seems to contain most of the components. I do find it odd they never show a detailed pic of this area  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 05:56:38 pm

So I just woke up and luckily the logging software was still going strong.  It was pretty easy to find the time when the unit shut off because it's where the voltage started climbing (and was no longer "noisy").

And you know what?  I started the test at 5:36pm last night, and when I checked the logs, it shut off at 10:49 am today.  That's what, 17 hours?  They were definitely not being honest about something.  I didn't see any change in current between when it was searching for satellites and when it was locked on.  (if there was a difference, it wasn't enough for it to jump out at me)  I might have to check again.  I'll have to watch the current when it's just been turned on (and obviously still searching for the 3-4+ locks), then see what the current looks like after it has a solid lock.

Will upload graph, timelapse, video to youtube, etc sometime today.

EDIT: typos--I shouldn't attempt to type without getting some caffeine  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on September 05, 2015, 06:00:18 pm

^^Excellent work 5ky!


About the UL test, how would UL know which performance they actually are testing, the Batteriser, or the Garmin GPS. It would seem logical to first verify that the Garmin GPS is without faults and working according to its specifications, else the test results would only be valid for the GPS unit(s) that Batteroo provided.

And as I understand it this particular GPS is already outdated so it would be difficult to verify its performance, at least on a 'new in box’ unit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 06:33:35 pm

Data is beautiful!

So, I got it into excel and started massaging the data and got it into a nice graph.  VERY interesting results.  You can very clearly tell at what point the screen dimmed because it plateaus.  (again, I'm going to make a video today to put on youtube because people need to see this a real apples to apples test like this to show that batteriser is being very dishonest in their claims)

EDIT: this also means that if we didn't use the stupid servo to keep the screen on, this thing would probably easily do 20-25+ hours on fresh AA's

Link to the full resolution screenshot (beware, I run 4k monitors so the screenshot is HUGE): http://i.imgur.com/M7sjSf3.png (http://i.imgur.com/M7sjSf3.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/M7sjSf3h.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 05, 2015, 07:20:02 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 06:33:35 pm

Data is beautiful!

Nice work!  Can you check the firmware version for us?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on September 05, 2015, 07:23:01 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 06:33:35 pm

Data is beautiful!

So, I got it into excel and started massaging the data and got it into a nice graph.  VERY interesting results.  You can very clearly tell at what point the screen dimmed because it plateaus.  (again, I'm going to make a video today to put on youtube because people need to see this a real apples to apples test like this to show that batteriser is being very dishonest in their claims)

EDIT: this also means that if we didn't use the stupid servo to keep the screen on, this thing would probably easily do 20-25+ hours on fresh AA's

Nice work!
And while a result like this was logical and to be expected, I find it quite shocking to see confirmed what we already suspected: They manipulated their test like crazy, just to get the result they needed.

Just wow!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 07:25:42 pm

Quote from: Kean on September 05, 2015, 07:20:02 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 06:33:35 pm

Data is beautiful!

Nice work!  Can you check the firmware version for us?

Software Version: 3.10
GPS Software Version: 4.25
CourseView Americas: 4.30

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 05, 2015, 07:46:11 pm

Batteriser's UL supposed "test" had one of the conditions for terminating the test as "either GPS unit shuts down competely OR until the GPS unit displays a Low Battery Power message". Nothing about measuring voltage or current.

Since we all know this particular Garmin device has a setting for alkaline batteries and is programmed to monitor the voltage down and display a warning message at some voltage, we can easily figure out using 5ky's excellent graph what that voltage is. I'd say about 1.75 hours into the graph we have 2.7 V for the pair or 1.35 V per cell!!

The Batteriser does nothing but trick the firmware in the Garmin to not display the warning message. We can also calculate the efficiency of having it in the device from a fresh new pair of batteries. It lasted only 10 hours while 5ky's test shows 17+ hours?

If UL oversaw the test, all they can say is what is obvious to anyone who understands this. They can attest to the setup of the test and that the conditions (as stated) were followed truthfully.

Batteroo states in their UL press release that regular batteries resulted in termination of the test after 1 hour 43 minutes due to "GPS shutting down". I bet you this is a BLATANT LIE and the real reason for termination of the test was the second condition (after the OR) which is the low battery power warning came on. Otherwise, why would they have even had an "OR" at all!?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 07:54:03 pm

Quote from: edy on September 05, 2015, 07:46:11 pm

Batteriser's UL supposed "test" had one of the conditions for terminating the test as "either GPS unit shuts down competely OR until the GPS unit displays a Low Battery Power message". Nothing about measuring voltage or current.

Since we all know this particular Garmin device has a setting for alkaline batteries and is programmed to monitor the voltage down and display a warning message at some voltage, we can easily figure out using 5ky's excellent graph what that voltage is.

The Batteriser does nothing but trick the firmware in the Garmin to not display the warning message. We can also calculate the efficiency of having it in the device from a fresh new pair of batteries. It lasted only 10 hours while 5ky's test shows 17+ hours?

If UL oversaw the test, all they can say is what is obvious to anyone who understands this. They can a test to the setup of the test and that the conditions (as stated) were followed truthfully.

Batteroo states in their UL press release that regular batteries resulted in termination of the test after 1 hour 43 minutes due to "GPS shutting down". I bet you this is a BLATANT LIE and the real reason for termination of the test was the second condition (after the OR) which is the low battery power warning came on. Otherwise, why would they have even had an "OR" at all!?

It's absolutely a lie.  The screen didn't dim on my unit until 7 hours into the test where you can clearly see the change in discharge rate.  I have no idea how they only managed to get 1.8 hrs.

EDIT: I found this hilarious comment on their gps testing video:

"Dude. I have that GPS, It lasts way longer than 2 hours, that waning message is just telling you that it is reducing screen brightness because you are using regular batteries rather than rechargeable."

Someone who owns that GPS unit saw the video and commented.  Hilarious.  I hope more people comment like that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 08:02:37 pm

Did you receive the same message with your unit?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 08:15:34 pm

Quote from: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 08:02:37 pm

Did you receive the same message with your unit?

Alexander.

Yes, but I didn't witness it because I wasn't going to stare at the screen for 17 straight hours  :-DD

I did, however, test using bench power supply before I did all this to see at what voltages you get the messages and there is definitely a message about screen brightness when the device is set to alkaline mode.  It just dims the screen a little and you push "ok" and the message goes away.  If you set the battery type to nimh or lipo the message never shows up and the screen never dims.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on September 05, 2015, 08:18:04 pm

Quote

Data is beautiful!

Very good!

As other's have mentioned, one more test of interest is to set the battery type to NiMH while using Alkaline. This will tell if Batteriser has even an advantage of delaying the dim warning message.

Regardless how Batteriser defines the termination point, a simpler question is  why Batteriser's data showed only about 2 hours before backlight dimming (vs 6 hours here). Maybe, they want to redo their tests without inserting current metering. If UL really tested the timing as Batteriser claimed, UL will need to explain the discrepancy too.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 08:30:32 pm

Judging from the message it self, there shouldn't be message when in NiMH mode.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: learningrc on September 05, 2015, 08:30:55 pm

I do quite a bit of work getting products tested with UL and I can say without a doubt that that isn't an official UL document, unless they edited it.  Here is some info for those not familiar with how UL works:

1) The "UL Project Number" is an internal number for a project.  It won't be on any official documents or the UL file search..  If, for example, I want to make a change to one of our UL files, I submit a request and then that request is given a UL project number.  It is odd that that number was even given out to the public - its a temporary number that really only has significance while the project is open.
2) The UL search that was linked to earlier (http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/cgifind/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.html (http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/cgifind/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.html)) should show results if there is UL file for the Batteriser.  I found nothing searching for "Batteriser" or "Batteroo."  That could just mean the UL testing isn't complete yet.
3) As somebody mentioned, UL files start with an E, followed by a bunch of numbers.  UL takes every product it certifies and places it in a certain UL category.  For example, I work with electric motors and the UL category code for most of our stuff is PRGY2.  So our file is usually designated as PRGY2.E______.  (Try searching for "PRGY2 and you'll get a whole bunch of motor manufacturers.)
4) When you get UL product approval, UL sends you a document that lets the UL inspector that visit your factory know what he needs to inspect for.  It contains construction details, information on what markings need to be on the product and in some cases if the inspector needs to witness any safety tests.  Every page in that report has header information that lists the E file number, the Volume, the Section and the page number of the file.
5) That sort of test wouldn't be included in a report and wouldn't even be something UL would test for.  UL has tons of standards that detail how products need to be constructed and what safety tests they need to pass.  There is no way that one of UL's standard tests would use a specific GPS model in a test like this.  And UL doesn't care how well your product performs.  It cares about things like whether your product will start a fire or shock somebody or explode.  For motors, for example, they care about things like what our insulation is made out of and how thick it is.  They care about clearances and creepage.  On some motors they perform locked rotor tests to make sure the thermal cutouts work before the motor gets too hot for its insulation class.  That's the sort of stuff they care about.

If you have any questions, let me know.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 08:39:53 pm

Quote from: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 08:30:32 pm

Judging from the message it self, there should be message when in NiMH mode.

Alexander.

nope, the message mentions using NiMH or Lipo instead to avoid the limitation:

(http://i.imgur.com/Yu6P2Roh.jpg?1)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 05, 2015, 08:49:22 pm

Had another close look at the GPS video, and can see the Dataq logger is measuring the voltage, and the Hantek 365 is measuring current on its 10A range.  I also discovered this has been discussed a while back starting around post 459: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg727461/#msg727461 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg727461/#msg727461)

So, does anyone have a Hantek 365 so they can measure the burden voltage on 10A range?  It isn't specified in the manual.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on September 05, 2015, 08:49:57 pm

Quote

Quote from: firewalker on Today at 06:30:32 AM
   

Quote

Judging from the message it self, there should be message when in NiMH mode.
    Alexander.

nope, the message mentions using NiMH or Lipo instead to avoid the limitation:

I meant if there are some dim message (of different wording) for NiMH mode, it will be interesting to see if it will show up before or after the 10 hour point (the time interval Batteriser claimed to have extended to).   

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 09:00:15 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 08:39:53 pm

Quote from: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 08:30:32 pm

Judging from the message it self, there should be message when in NiMH mode.

Alexander.

nope, the message mentions using NiMH or Lipo instead to avoid the limitation:

I just forgot the "not" in my sentence.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on September 05, 2015, 09:03:43 pm

Quote from: edy on August 25, 2015, 08:21:40 pm

I agree. Venture Capitalists are interested in a return on their investment.... not whether something actually works or not. They are only interested in getting back their money with interest and throwing on to the next chum (whether it be other public investors, crowd-funders, another company) to sort it all out.

I think the biggest blunder Batteriser did was then probably to crowd-fund their product. They should have just launched with "TV INFOMMERCIALS" and made money the old fashioned way, without anyone ever having the opportunity or time to critique it. I can see it now... 

"Call now, for a limited time you can get yours for only $9.99. But wait, there's more! And it's not sold in any store! If you are one of the first to call, you will not only get 1 Batteriser... But 2! Yes! Double your order! Not satisfied? We will also throw in this battery tester valued at over $20. Oh hold on... We are going crazy here at the factory. We are willing to give you not 2, but 4! Yes 4! If you call in the next 10 minutes! Do it now before this incredible offer disappears forever! You get 4 Batterisers each valued at $9.99, a battery tester for $20, a total value of almost $60..... All yours for ONLY $9.99 (plus shipping and handling of $14.99 and sales taxes not included)."

 :-DD

I don't believe that a VC doesn't care about whether a product works. There are, after all, financial consequences to fraud, and if Batteriser is not a fraud but a scam, there are consequences to a VC's reputation which again leads to financial consequences. What is fascinating about Batteriser is that they have reputable EE management and a reputable VC who seem to have the unmitigated gall to believe that they can get away with this. To me it seems like suicide on their part. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 09:35:25 pm

Quote from: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 09:00:15 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 08:39:53 pm

Quote from: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 08:30:32 pm

Judging from the message it self, there should be message when in NiMH mode.

Alexander.

nope, the message mentions using NiMH or Lipo instead to avoid the limitation:

I just forgot the "not" in my sentence.

Alexander.

Ah, I see.  In the other modes, the message does not show up.  The only thing the "setting" changes is in lithium and nimh modes, the screen dim (and message) are disabled, and it also changes the voltage at which the low battery alert comes on.  So, you could technically use alkalines and just set the battery type to lithium and not have the screen dim.  Most of the time, in real use, you wouldn't have the backlight on anyways because those screen are VERY readable in direct sunlight. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on September 05, 2015, 09:39:42 pm

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on September 05, 2015, 02:51:20 pm

I really think it's time for Dave to get his hands on this Approach G3 and make some comments to the technical video and their recent UL 'certification' / document!

It might be going too far to directly say the document is fake, and I wouldn't encourage Dave to say it. But let's be real, it's fake.

1. It looks nothing like an official document I've ever seen, it has spelling mistakes and awkward grammar.
2. The UL logo is missing the copyright logo.
3. It looks nothing likely any UL report/certification I can find online: http://www.multi-contact.com/AcroFiles/Zertifikate/UL/UL_E351413_CND_%28en%29.pdf (http://www.multi-contact.com/AcroFiles/Zertifikate/UL/UL_E351413_CND_%28en%29.pdf) or http://www.gadgetplusstore.com/sites/default/files/uploads/1274255303%26%2609.jpg (http://www.gadgetplusstore.com/sites/default/files/uploads/1274255303%26%2609.jpg)
4. A company like UL would most definitely use a fixed template.
5. No technical information is listed, no signatures, dates, reference numbers, issueee, etc.
6. It's a screen capture of a Word document (JPG), not PDF.
7. Inconsistent use of language, says the test is terminated when a low battery message is displayed - while at the same time saying the GPS shuts down when the test ends (without batteriser).
etc etc.

Anyone who knows more can give more points I am sure.

The document only makes sense if this is the procedure provided by Batteroo and sent to UL for them to test. i.e. Batteroo's own findings that they want UL to replicate. But then, why the UL logo?

May I say conspiranoid and even more crazy than usual if I think about the following?

- Who's that teacher and his workers at this startup?
* Is his identity and degree really verified?
* Where did he get his degree from (I hope not from one of those infamous fake universities [1] (http://www.ugc.ac.in/page/Fake-Universities.aspx) [2] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unaccredited_institutions_of_higher_education) ?
- Is his university officially aware of his entrepreneur activity at Batteroo Inc and supports him in some way? Does somebody from his university department support his efforts and product capabilities?
- Any information about this information with some feedback about the education quality and resources of this university?
* Feedback from former students, despite being known in the industry or just anonymous faces.
* Former and current workers.
* Reports and feedback from government, charities, companies and other kind of institutions.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 05, 2015, 09:55:15 pm

Indiegogo campgain update:

Quote

Must read if your children use battery powered toys and devices:
According to Energizer mixing old and new batteries in a device can cause a “leakage or rupture, resulting in personal injury or property damage”.  Kodak, Rayovac, Varta, and the consumer advocate group National Center for Healthy Housing all recognize the issue.
Batteriser technology eliminates this problem by preventing batteries it is installed on from discharging to an unsafe level and allowing old batteries to provide the same amount of instantaneous power as a new battery.
Sources that recognize this issue:
http://www.consumer.org.my/index.php/safety/household/224-batteries-can-leak-overheat-and-rupture-causing-chemical-burns-to-your-kids (http://www.consumer.org.my/index.php/safety/household/224-batteries-can-leak-overheat-and-rupture-causing-chemical-burns-to-your-kids)
http://www.nchh.org/Portals/0/Contents/CPSC_Battery_Burns.pdf (http://www.nchh.org/Portals/0/Contents/CPSC_Battery_Burns.pdf)
http://www.kodakbatteries.strandeurope.com/Safety/Things-Not-To-Do (http://www.kodakbatteries.strandeurope.com/Safety/Things-Not-To-Do)
http://www.rayovac.com/learning/battery-care.aspx (http://www.rayovac.com/learning/battery-care.aspx)
http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/battery-care (http://www.energizer.com/about-batteries/battery-care)
http://www.duracell.com/en-us/battery-care-and-disposal (http://www.duracell.com/en-us/battery-care-and-disposal)
 
Have a wonderful and safe weekend!
http://igg.me/at/batteriser (http://igg.me/at/batteriser)

Anyone explain how the Batteriser prevents leakage or rupture when mixing old with new? What is the cause of the problems with mixing old with new?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 05, 2015, 09:58:29 pm

The issue with mixing old and new, is that the old would be over discharged.

Much like putting a butteriser in will do, cause the battery to be over discharged.

I'm not sure how they think putting extra load on a battery will stop it from being over discharged :/

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on September 05, 2015, 10:02:45 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 08:39:53 pm

Quote from: firewalker on September 05, 2015, 08:30:32 pm

Judging from the message it self, there should be message when in NiMH mode.

Alexander.

nope, the message mentions using NiMH or Lipo instead to avoid the limitation:

(http://i.imgur.com/Yu6P2Roh.jpg?1)

i would expect 'lithium' means Lithium Iron Disulphide or the AA Energizer Ultimate Lithium disposable cells rather than 'Lithium Polymer' which would be rechargable

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 05, 2015, 10:04:33 pm

Wouldn't the Batteriser over-discharge every battery? Isn't that the purpose of it? Even when the cell is completely flat the DC-DC converter will most likely have a quiescent current draw.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 05, 2015, 10:06:31 pm

You'll have to ask the monkey about that! XD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on September 05, 2015, 10:14:05 pm

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on September 05, 2015, 10:04:33 pm

Wouldn't the Batteriser over-discharge every battery? Isn't that the purpose of it? Even when the cell is completely flat the DC-DC converter will most likely have a quiescent current draw.

Ali just posted:

"It takes on average over 30 years to drain alkaline battery at standby current with the Batteriser. The difference with and without Batteriser at standby is negligible. "

indicates a low parasitic load on the battery

i would expect if you had a full battery and an empty one in series the empty battery would just act as a series resistor, how this affects the chemistry to promote leakage i dont really know... i am sure someone will have an answer?

one way to reduce leakage risk is to have the empty battery out of circuit, could the batteriser do this by design?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 05, 2015, 10:27:00 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on September 05, 2015, 10:14:05 pm

Ali just posted:

"It takes on average over 30 years to drain alkaline battery at standby current with the Batteriser. The difference with and without Batteriser at standby is negligible. "

I would say that's a bit exaggerated, but not important. What I'm thinking is when the Batteriser is left in the product after it has stopped working, when "all the power has been used from it". How problematic would a ~5 µA load left on it be? (basically ~120k ohm across the terminals) Days? Weeks?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 10:34:33 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on September 05, 2015, 10:02:45 pm

i would expect 'lithium' means Lithium Iron Disulphide or the AA Energizer Ultimate Lithium disposable cells rather than 'Lithium Polymer' which would be rechargable

yeah I'm pretty sure that's what they mean because I don't know of any lipos that are AA format

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on September 05, 2015, 10:48:37 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 10:34:33 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on September 05, 2015, 10:02:45 pm

i would expect 'lithium' means Lithium Iron Disulphide or the AA Energizer Ultimate Lithium disposable cells rather than 'Lithium Polymer' which would be rechargable

yeah I'm pretty sure that's what they mean because I don't know of any lipos that are AA format

yes AFAIK lipo chemistry would mean a 3.7v cell

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on September 05, 2015, 10:55:05 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on September 05, 2015, 10:14:05 pm

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on September 05, 2015, 10:04:33 pm

Wouldn't the Batteriser over-discharge every battery? Isn't that the purpose of it? Even when the cell is completely flat the DC-DC converter will most likely have a quiescent current draw.

Ali just posted:

"It takes on average over 30 years to drain alkaline battery at standby current with the Batteriser. The difference with and without Batteriser at standby is negligible. "

indicates a low parasitic load on the battery

i would expect if you had a full battery and an empty one in series the empty battery would just act as a series resistor, how this affects the chemistry to promote leakage i dont really know... i am sure someone will have an answer?

one way to reduce leakage risk is to have the empty battery out of circuit, could the batteriser do this by design?

Update/correction  from Bob:

"With regard to Stand by current… it is in Micro amps range..if you put Batteriser sleeve on the device it takes over 20 years to drain the battery which by then the battery would be useless anyway."

well, what is a 30% error between friends eh?  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 05, 2015, 11:02:04 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 06:33:35 pm

Data is beautiful!

So, I got it into excel and started massaging the data and got it into a nice graph.  VERY interesting results.  You can very clearly tell at what point the screen dimmed because it plateaus.  (again, I'm going to make a video today to put on youtube because people need to see this a real apples to apples test like this to show that batteriser is being very dishonest in their claims)

EDIT: this also means that if we didn't use the stupid servo to keep the screen on, this thing would probably easily do 20-25+ hours on fresh AA's
...
(http://i.imgur.com/M7sjSf3h.png)

Really excellent work! One thing I found very interesting, is notice the voltage dip where it goes below 1.9V and the unit continues working? In their "technical" snail rebuttal video, at 29:46, the chubby engineer and Frankie both state that the moment a spike "kisses" the 2.2V mark (1.1V per cell) the unit will shut off. This chart proves beyond a shadow of doubt that that claim is false.

I look forward to seeing the video!
Proven: Batteriser causes 41% LOSS in device runtime, using batteriser's own time claims with it on the device. (10:12 hours claimed WITH batteriser; 17:23 hrs proven without batteriser.) This is using a device which they cherry-picked to fit their specific requirements.
(EDIT; went back and fixed my percentage. I need a coffee too...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 05, 2015, 11:10:01 pm

And its been dipping below the 2.2volt point from around the 6hour, 45 minute mark...

They never posted the voltage figures with their gps/butterister test, because I have no doubt they were dropping just as low, just as soon, with their test, if not worse, because its highly unlikely the butteriser can deliver the current claims they make either...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 11:25:41 pm

Quote from: samgab on September 05, 2015, 11:02:04 pm

Really excellent work! One thing I found very interesting, is notice the voltage dip where it goes below 1.9V and the unit continues working? In their "technical" snail rebuttal video, at 29:46, the chubby engineer and Frankie both state that the moment a spike "kisses" the 2.2V mark (1.1V per cell) the unit will shut off. This chart proves beyond a shadow of doubt that that claim is false.

Of course. Because it's not a problem in most practical products.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on September 05, 2015, 11:28:26 pm

GPS video now thoroughly debunked.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=169666)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on September 05, 2015, 11:35:56 pm

The issue of leakage can work both ways - for products that cut off at a high-ish voltage and then stop drawing power, Batteriser will discharge the battery lower than it would otherwise, and also continue to draw some quiescent current, hastening leakage.
However for "dumb" products that are resistive or similar loads (e.g. monkey), batteriser will (presumably) cut off at some voltage, preventing, or at least signifiantly postpone the deep discharge that would make leakage likely. Assuming of course the boost converter architecture has load shutoff as opposed to bypass when the input is undervoltage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 06, 2015, 01:18:35 am

Quote from: Circuiteromalaguito on September 05, 2015, 09:39:42 pm

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on September 05, 2015, 02:51:20 pm

I really think it's time for Dave to get his hands on this Approach G3 and make some comments to the technical video and their recent UL 'certification' / document!

It might be going too far to directly say the document is fake, and I wouldn't encourage Dave to say it. But let's be real, it's fake.

1. It looks nothing like an official document I've ever seen, it has spelling mistakes and awkward grammar.
2. The UL logo is missing the copyright logo.
3. It looks nothing likely any UL report/certification I can find online: http://www.multi-contact.com/AcroFiles/Zertifikate/UL/UL_E351413_CND_%28en%29.pdf (http://www.multi-contact.com/AcroFiles/Zertifikate/UL/UL_E351413_CND_%28en%29.pdf) or http://www.gadgetplusstore.com/sites/default/files/uploads/1274255303%26%2609.jpg (http://www.gadgetplusstore.com/sites/default/files/uploads/1274255303%26%2609.jpg)
4. A company like UL would most definitely use a fixed template.
5. No technical information is listed, no signatures, dates, reference numbers, issueee, etc.
6. It's a screen capture of a Word document (JPG), not PDF.
7. Inconsistent use of language, says the test is terminated when a low battery message is displayed - while at the same time saying the GPS shuts down when the test ends (without batteriser).
etc etc.

Anyone who knows more can give more points I am sure.

The document only makes sense if this is the procedure provided by Batteroo and sent to UL for them to test. i.e. Batteroo's own findings that they want UL to replicate. But then, why the UL logo?

May I say conspiranoid and even more crazy than usual if I think about the following?

- Who's that teacher and his workers at this startup?
* Is his identity and degree really verified?
* Where did he get his degree from (I hope not from one of those infamous fake universities [1] (http://www.ugc.ac.in/page/Fake-Universities.aspx) [2] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unaccredited_institutions_of_higher_education) ?
- Is his university officially aware of his entrepreneur activity at Batteroo Inc and supports him in some way? Does somebody from his university department support his efforts and product capabilities?
- Any information about this information with some feedback about the education quality and resources of this university?
* Feedback from former students, despite being known in the industry or just anonymous faces.
* Former and current workers.
* Reports and feedback from government, charities, companies and other kind of institutions.

I looked, and Bob and Frankie's academic credentials appear sound.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 06, 2015, 01:53:12 am

Quote

I looked, and Bob and Frankie's academic credentials appear sound.

I have no doubt the Roohparvars are very clever in engineering and business. I am sure they know exactly what they are doing, and they know exactly what the Batteriser does. I believe that this was calculated and designed from the very beginning as a way to sell a cheap device to the masses to help make some of their electronics function more optimally (no dimming, no slowing down, no reduced functions, no compromise) for a longer time than otherwise expected due to gradual battery voltage decrease.... albeit shorter time overall because once it does increase the current draw to maintain the voltage it drains the battery quicker. It Is an "all or nothing" which they justify by using examples like flashlights and certain toys where lower voltage performance, while still allowing the device to function, may not be as useful to the end user.

Nevertheless, I am confident everything was chosen exactly because Batteroo knew how best to fool the uninformed lay public. They miscalculated the attention they would get from other EE's and hobbyists, and chose a very bad set of people to run their YouTube channel, PR marketing and social media accounts (easy to spot fakes, astroturfing, not professional, etc).

Once they over-reached their marketing and started designing tests and demonstrations which are completely biased to promote Batteriser and not in any way prove it has any value, they took it down the hole with them and the rest just added fuel to the fire. I bet many people would have bought the Batteriser if it simply promoted "optimal voltage to get the best light/speed out of your high-energy using toys for longer" and never tried to tackle any other purpose.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 06, 2015, 01:58:49 am

Quote from: edy on September 06, 2015, 01:53:12 am

Quote

I looked, and Bob and Frankie's academic credentials appear sound.

I have no doubt the Roohparvars are very clever in engineering and business. I am sure they know exactly what they are doing, and they know exactly what the Batteriser does. I believe that this was calculated and designed from the very beginning as a way to sell a cheap device to the masses to help make some of their electronics function more optimally (no dimming, no slowing down, no reduced functions, no compromise) for a longer time than otherwise expected due to gradual battery voltage decrease.... albeit shorter time overall because once it does increase the current draw to maintain the voltage it drains the battery quicker. It Is an "all or nothing" which they justify by using examples like flashlights and certain toys where lower voltage performance, while still allowing the device to function, may not be as useful to the end user.

Nevertheless, I am confident everything was chosen exactly because Batteroo knew how best to fool the uninformed lay public. They miscalculated the attention they would get from other EE's and hobbyists, and chose a very bad set of people to run their YouTube channel, PR marketing and social media accounts (easy to spot fakes, astroturfing, not professional, etc).

Once they over-reached their marketing and started designing tests and demonstrations which are completely biased to promote Batteriser and not in any way prove it has any value, they took it down the hole with them and the rest just added fuel to the fire. I bet many people would have bought the Batteriser if it simply promoted "optimal voltage to get the best light/speed out of your high-energy using toys for longer" and never tried to tackle any other purpose.

well said!  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Synthetase on September 06, 2015, 02:01:34 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 04, 2015, 09:42:42 am

Quote from: Synthetase on September 04, 2015, 08:47:47 am

Battery chemistry. The chemical reactions will slow down as the ambient temperature drops, limiting current flow. Also when the cell is subjected to higher load current, what you're asking from the chemistry is for a lot of ions to find their way to electrodes really quickly, this is a physical process and it takes time for it to happen, hence the faster you want it to go, the less time it'll last and vice versa. This is also why cells can appear to recover significant capacity after a rest: the chemicals have had a chance to disperse more throughout the whole cell, so you don't have a huge build-up of 'spent' chemicals directly around each electrode.

But the only effect of all that is to change the ESR...?

Not sure if this has been addressed - don't have time to read the latest 10 pages of the thread, but...

The ESR of a cell is a complex beast, merely modelled by electronics engineers as a resistor within the cell which is close enough for their purposes. What you know is that there is some inherent impedance to current flow, you don't care how it happens, just that it does. Although, if you look at the AA cell data sheets Dave was showing in one of his batteriser videos, you can see the discharge curve alters as the discharge current does, so they do a few under a range of different currents. This is to take the variation of the cell's ESR under different loading conditions into account, giving design engineers a starting point to work from.

As for how ESR actually occurs, the power of the cell is derived from chemical reactions, hence anything that will act to slow down the flow of electrons will be lumped under ESR. If the reaction cannot proceed fast enough to give you as many electrons/second as you'd like (ambient temp, short circuit, etc): ESR. If the reaction at the electrodes is happening so fast that fresh ions in the chemical mix cannot get to the electrodes fast enough in order to give up/join with their electrons: ESR. A change in surface area of the electrodes due to being eaten away by the reaction will also alter the ESR (this is a very common failure mode for lead-acid batteries). Anything else you can think of that alters the efficiency of the reaction will alter the ESR.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 06, 2015, 02:15:56 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 06:33:35 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/M7sjSf3h.png)

Regarding burden voltage due to the current shunt, allow me to type order magnitude numbers here for argument sake, cutting few corners here.

• It was claimed that the device stopped working after little under 2 hours, that is 4 divisions in above graph. The voltage at that point is approximately 2.7V.
• Without current shunt in series with the power supply, the device stops full backlight after 13 divisions. The voltage at that point is approximately 2.4V.
• So I would estimate burden voltage to be about 0.2 to 0.3V.
• If I recall correctly the current averaged about 150mA, then the current shunt would be around 0.3/0.150 = 2 ohms?

Does that make sense?
My main multimeter (top end consumer electronics) has a spec'd burden voltage of 1.5mV/mA in 500mA range, resulting in 1.5 ohms. I mean to say order magnitude of the burden voltage seems viable to me.
Someone mentioned the 10A socket was used for current measurements, but I didn't spot that in the GPS video. I've seen the 10A socket on a DVM used in another video, probably the monkey but I'm not sure about that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Davey_Jonez on September 06, 2015, 02:58:25 am

OMG, the idiot factor is high. UL is not issuing certification, then there would be a UL logo with copyright stuff. They received test verification. I have used UL like that in the past. It is real, not faked. It means they cannot put UL on the retail package, but UL tested and verified their results.
I am not going to go off and buy a Garmin G3 and test it, but I know people that use it on the golf course and they complain it gets 9 hours tops and they are not tapping the screen every 12-15 seconds. So, not sure what this result below is, but if UL tested it and verified, then I would believe UL over some guy on a blog. Make all of the videos you want to, and I know you will, I would say good luck, but I do not care about any of this crap.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on September 06, 2015, 03:09:06 am

UL doesn't do tests like that. The entire point of getting something UL tested is to get a certification allowing you to put their logo on your device/packaging/marketing.

If they have instead received "test verification" which does not permit them to claim UL certification, than isn't posting a claim of UL certification, using their logo, on the company twitter account illegal? If you do not have UL certification, you are not permitted to use their logo in any way. There is no "we submitted it for testing" permitted use, there is no "They tested but didn't receive a certification" use - which, by the way, means you failed testing.

You have never dealt with UL, but I'm sure their lawyers will be contacting you soon. UL is very protective of its trademark and reputation.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 06, 2015, 03:19:20 am

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 06, 2015, 02:58:25 am

OMG, the idiot factor is high. UL is not issuing certification, then there would be a UL logo with copyright stuff. They received test verification. I have used UL like that in the past. It is real, not faked. It means they cannot put UL on the retail package, but UL tested and verified their results.
I am not going to go off and buy a Garmin G3 and test it, but I know people that use it on the golf course and they complain it gets 9 hours tops and they are not tapping the screen every 12-15 seconds. So, not sure what this result below is, but if UL tested it and verified, then I would believe UL over some guy on a blog. Make all of the videos you want to, and I know you will, I would say good luck, but I do not care about any of this crap.

So the batteriser test CLEARLY stops the test when the brightness warning appears on the screen, and they call that the point at which is "shuts down and the screen dims to black"?  Lying c*nts.

Calling that the stopping point means 1.5 hours versus 17 hours.  (or 11.7 hours if we throw in 300 mV of burden voltage)  Why be dishonest about shit like that?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: andrew.perrong on September 06, 2015, 03:22:33 am

I think this "Mr. Jones" is a bit of a batteriser shill, eh? Using a fake profile with a fake name, and pretending to be "new" to this stuff and having "friends" that have the G3.

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 06, 2015, 02:58:25 am

OMG, the idiot factor is high. UL is not issuing certification, then there would be a UL logo with copyright stuff. They received test verification. I have used UL like that in the past. It is real, not faked. It means they cannot put UL on the retail package, but UL tested and verified their results.
I am not going to go off and buy a Garmin G3 and test it, but I know people that use it on the golf course and they complain it gets 9 hours tops and they are not tapping the screen every 12-15 seconds. So, not sure what this result below is, but if UL tested it and verified, then I would believe UL over some guy on a blog. Make all of the videos you want to, and I know you will, I would say good luck, but I do not care about any of this crap.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on September 06, 2015, 03:26:34 am

UL expressly forbids even using their name in any way related to a product or its marketing unless you have entered into a service agreement with them. Have you? You're not even allowed to say a product is in testing!

Quote

Subscriber acknowledges and agrees that UL Contracting Party or
another UL Company owns the UL Mark. Subscriber expressly agrees that it shall not
use the name of UL Contracting Party or another UL Company or the UL Mark on or in
connection with, the Covered Product, containers, or packaging, unless and until the
Subscriber has entered into a Service Agreement for Follow-Up Services with
UL Contracting Party and then only in the form of manner specified in the Follow-Up
Service Procedure (e.g., Subscriber may not refer to a Covered Product as “UL
pending”)

It sounds like UL also wants to review any promotional use, for which you need permission in writing (do you have it?), to make sure you aren't trying to pull a fast to one by claiming something they didn't do (sound familar?):

Quote

UL Contracting Party will permit Subscriber to make appropriate references to
UL Contracting Party or another UL Company as authorized from time to time in writing
by UL Contracting Party and specified in the Follow-Up Service Procedure) in
promotional or advertising material, in any medium, including, without limitation, print or
electronic media, solely in connection with Covered Products that bear the UL Mark;
PROVIDED THAT, in UL Contracting Party’s sole opinion, the following conditions are
met: (a) the promotional or advertising material is in no way inconsistent with the
findings or coverages of UL Contracting Party; (b) the reference to UL Contracting Party
or another UL Company is not intended to and does not create a misleading impression
as to the nature of UL Contracting Party’s findings, its coverages, or its Service; and
(c) the promotional or advertising material does not in any manner state or imply that
UL Contracting Party or any other UL Company is in any way (i) “endorsing” or
“certifying” the Covered Product; or (ii) “warranting” or “guaranteeing” any aspect of the
Covered Product, its performance, or its “safety.” Except for the UL Mark that is
prescribed for use in a specific Follow-Up Service Procedure, no other UL Mark may be
used in any advertising or promotional material related to a Covered Product. In those
instances where a UL Mark is used, any text which is required by the Follow-Up Service
Procedure shall be set forth in full in any such advertising or promotional materials.

And note that, once again, if you haven't gotten permission to put the UL mark on your product, you don't have permission to use it anywhere else or refer to them testing your product at all, including on twitter.

Violation of any of these can result in immediate termination of your service agreement and possible other penalties. Hope you've got a good legal team...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 06, 2015, 03:29:53 am

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 06, 2015, 02:58:25 am

... I do not care about any of this crap.

And yet you're still here. One would have to wonder why?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 06, 2015, 04:08:17 am

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 06, 2015, 02:58:25 am

OMG, the idiot factor is high. UL is not issuing certification, then there would be a UL logo with copyright stuff. They received test verification. I have used UL like that in the past. It is real, not faked. It means they cannot put UL on the retail package, but UL tested and verified their results.
I am not going to go off and buy a Garmin G3 and test it, but I know people that use it on the golf course and they complain it gets 9 hours tops and they are not tapping the screen every 12-15 seconds. So, not sure what this result below is, but if UL tested it and verified, then I would believe UL over some guy on a blog. Make all of the videos you want to, and I know you will, I would say good luck, but I do not care about any of this crap.

So, you admit that Batteroo's test is producing the incorrect result, and that this sub-2 hours result is baloney.  But you're calling the people who obtain results that also contradict Batteroo's (your) results "idiots." Care to tell where precisely that places *you* on the IQ scale? 

And good luck with the UL.  It really does appear that you're infringing their trademark. We'll start the timer for how long it takes for them to force you to retract your claims. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on September 06, 2015, 04:48:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 05, 2015, 11:02:32 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 05, 2015, 10:52:28 am

Every performance claim by Batteroo has now been completely destroyed. Care to start making some retractions there Bob?

Nope, he's got a UL report that trumps everything, and they'll ride that show pony all the way into town.

I bet they are now done and won't release any more videos or reply to any more technical claims. They'll keep mum until the dust settles.
They still haven't responded to my video about the paid dislikes, not a peep.

That UL report still means nothing towards it's performance. All that means its that it's won't kill you or catch on fire...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on September 06, 2015, 04:55:04 am

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on September 05, 2015, 02:51:20 pm

But then, why the UL logo?

Anyone can pull the logo off google images and Photoshop it onto a document...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tupapioso on September 06, 2015, 05:55:05 am

I took a look at the supposed UL photo in photoshop and it is quite clear (especially if you look at the red channel) that the UL logo has compression artifacts surrounding it that are probably the result of the UL logo being cut from another document and pasted on to this picture. Also if you run the photo through photoforensics.com you will see how suspicious the UL logo is.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Simon on September 06, 2015, 06:27:29 am

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 06, 2015, 02:58:25 am

OMG, the idiot factor is high. UL is not issuing certification, then there would be a UL logo with copyright stuff. They received test verification. I have used UL like that in the past. It is real, not faked. It means they cannot put UL on the retail package, but UL tested and verified their results.
I am not going to go off and buy a Garmin G3 and test it, but I know people that use it on the golf course and they complain it gets 9 hours tops and they are not tapping the screen every 12-15 seconds. So, not sure what this result below is, but if UL tested it and verified, then I would believe UL over some guy on a blog. Make all of the videos you want to, and I know you will, I would say good luck, but I do not care about any of this crap.

We call crap on you batterizer. Find me the text on the UL website that states that they test to see if products meet the manufacturer claims. No UL only test for safety not for veracity or in you case lack of fraudalent claims because you are all about fraud at this point.

Just look at the cliams on batterizer.com. It starts with "tap into 80% more" right so 80% more is actually 0.8 on top of what you originally had or 1.8 times capacity boost.

Then in the same paragragh it says that devices only tap into 20% of battery capacity and you can get the other 80% back for them, so 80%/20% = 4x not 8x as originally claimed and not the 1.8x claimed in the line above.

How stupid can batterizer get ? you can't even do basic and consistent maths in one paragraph (and I'm bad)  :palm:

Anyone who invested in this fraud should be getting their money back, to make a mistake is one thing to intentionally mislead people is called fraud in law. You go take a hard long look at yourself  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 06, 2015, 06:50:22 am

Batteroo has been bragging about the miniaturization of their DC to DC converter (*), but if you look at the datasheet of the ADP1607 suggested by free_electron, you would see that the circuit layout published by Analog Devices already fits easily on top of a AA battery, with some minor changes to accommodate the positive nib of the battery:

http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/ADP1607.pdf (http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/ADP1607.pdf)

(*) [Our technology is really a miniaturization technique that allows us to build the sleeve. We have some IP in some of the IC circuits that are in there, but the key is we’ve been able to miniaturize the boost circuit to a point that no one else has been able to achieve. “]

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Quarlo Klobrigney on September 06, 2015, 07:00:12 am

Are you the same YouTube troll that debunks anything that has proper engineering proof and is so much hokum, that this Batteriser will not work?
BTW the world is somewhat round. Prove me wrong Mr. Jonez.
Prove the UL testing is real.
Whichever one is easier for you.

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 06, 2015, 02:58:25 am

OMG, the idiot factor is high. UL is not issuing certification, then there would be a UL logo with copyright stuff. They received test verification.
Snip ?
but I do not care about any of this crap.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Quarlo Klobrigney on September 06, 2015, 07:18:46 am

Tiny little AD thing isn't it? Now imagine shrinking a Chinese version less the IC encapsulation to begin with, but a black dot of epoxy encompassing the whole circuit.
They did not reinvent the wheel just the spin of it. And I do mean SPIN.

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 06, 2015, 06:50:22 am

Batteroo has been bragging about miniaturization of their DC to DC converter

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 06, 2015, 07:25:53 am

Quote from: free_electron on September 05, 2015, 07:34:45 am

...i did some sleuthing and there is this picture i found

looking for boost converters in that package and the current needed , the only two chips that come close to this are the analog devices ADP1607 and semtech SC121 . all others are too low current.

356K and 1 meg in the feedback gives 1.4 volts output voltage for this circuit .. package fits their design ...

i think we have a winner.

maybe time for a little building of this thing and trying it out ?

Yeah, Good find. I agree the ADP1607 is the closest I've seen to meeting the design sheet. Same as the sample layout on the datasheet too, with the only components being C1, C2, R1, R2, L1, and U1.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 06, 2015, 07:32:49 am

I would be surprised if they are doing a custom chip / ASIC, they sure have the expertise and contacts - but I doubt they have the money. So if they are using an off the shelf chip with the numbers scratched off - would we ever be able to tell? Would we have to Decap it and compare side-by-side with off the shelf alternatives that meet all the requirements?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 06, 2015, 07:36:50 am

Quote from: Nerull on September 06, 2015, 03:26:34 am

And note that, once again, if you haven't gotten permission to put the UL mark on your product, you don't have permission to use it anywhere else or refer to them testing your product at all, including on twitter.

It is on the main batteriser.com page too.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on September 06, 2015, 07:45:25 am

If you contract to buy 100k of a particular chip most semiconductor vendors will be all too happy to give you a batch with your own custom part number on it and your own logo, with only a tiny extra bit of marking so they can do their in house tracking. Just a change in the final stage of marking after they pass the function test, and they give you the whole batch in the standard package and box, just with the labels having your house code instead of their part number, but they will still have the standard lot coding and inventory codes. Instant custom chip, and at no extra cost as you are paying the standard price for the 100k in any case.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 06, 2015, 07:50:08 am

I don't see the batteriser doing more than about an amp, tops.  I'm curious how it will behave when you put it in something like an RC car with a brushed DC motor.  Or a high power LED flashlight.  (unlike the piss-ant weak-ass one they used in their promo video)  Will it give up the ghost?  I can't wait to find out!  :box:

EDIT: I CAN'T TYPE

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 06, 2015, 08:01:38 am

At Vin 0.8V, they'd be hard-pressed to get more than 300mA out.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 06, 2015, 08:07:16 am

Markings? We don't NEED no stinkin' markings. We can simply test and observe it's performance characteristics and we'll know if it's just a blank or relabeled ADP1607. It's not a very complicated chip...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 06, 2015, 08:13:30 am

This looks very familiar, don't you think:
(http://i.imgur.com/5lJN2CX.jpg)
(http://www.element14.com/community/dtss-images/uploads/devtool/diagram/large/aef123309f81385b9ef8e60f42dbcb84.png)

Of course this is no evidence of anything really. Time will tell what the mysterious "U1" really is.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 06, 2015, 08:34:45 am

Today a CO (carbon monoxide) detector on a boat started beeping for a new battery. I always thought that CO/smoke/e.t.c. detectors used a 9 volt battery. But this model had AA cells.

What would the implication of someone using the batteriser on a CO/smoke detectors...  :scared: :scared: :scared:

Potentially lethal!

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on September 06, 2015, 08:48:16 am

Quote from: SeanB on September 06, 2015, 07:45:25 am

If you contract to buy 100k of a particular chip most semiconductor vendors will be all too happy to give you a batch with your own custom part number on it and your own logo, with only a tiny extra bit of marking so they can do their in house tracking. Just a change in the final stage of marking after they pass the function test, and they give you the whole batch in the standard package and box, just with the labels having your house code instead of their part number, but they will still have the standard lot coding and inventory codes. Instant custom chip, and at no extra cost as you are paying the standard price for the 100k in any case.

106,208 sold as of this morning

Total Sales   $266,455.00
Total Batterisers   106,208
Average Batteriser Selling Price   $2.509
Perks Claimed   5,866
Funders Total   5,942
Funders Without Perks   76
Total Raised   $318,063.00

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 06, 2015, 09:10:04 am

We can pretty much figure out all the parts being used. Anybody would hazard a guess about the BOM cost for 100,000 devices?

1 sheet metal AA battery holder (Powder coated)
1 metal cap (Anode)
1 doughnut-shaped PCB (double-sided) 4.5mm radius (AA)
1 Analog Devices ADP1607 ACPZN-R7
2 10uF 10V X5R capacitors (0402) 0.17$ each
1 TDK 2.2uH MLP2016S2R2M inductor (0805) 0.12$ each
2 resistors 100kOhm (0402) (Bourns CRT0402-CZ-1003GLF) @ 0.07$ each

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: DJohn on September 06, 2015, 09:14:43 am

Quote from: Circuiteromalaguito on September 05, 2015, 09:39:42 pm

May I say conspiranoid and even more crazy than usual if I think about the following?

Yes, you sound like a 'conspiranoid'.  This is why I've been keeping out of this whole thing.

What it shouldn't be: a witch-hunt against Batteroo, with people leaping on every new statement, tearing it apart, looking for the tiniest apparent inconsistency (even when there isn't one) and crying victory.  It makes you look petty, like you have some agenda that you haven't declared, and (when you see supposed failings that have other explanations) like you don't know what you're talking about.

What it should be: taking testable claims, and testing them.  That's what Dave has been doing, and that's what whoever it is doing the GPS tests is doing.

"That UL logo looks photoshopped", "his background is in digital design, so he can't have the skills to design a power supply", "I don't think he has a real degree at all" are opinions.  All they do is make their holders look like people with a grudge against Batteroo, desperate to score whatever points they can, without anything solid to back them up.  It makes things turn ugly.

"Devices only use 20% of the power in a battery" is a claim that can be tested.  Dave's shown that to be false (and taught a lot of people a lot about how batteries behave in the process).  "This model of GPS lasts less than 2 hours unmodified" is easily shown to be false as well.  That's all that's necessary.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on September 06, 2015, 09:23:25 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 06, 2015, 09:10:04 am

We can pretty much figure out all the parts being used. Anybody would hazard a guess about the BOM cost for 100,000 devices?

1 sheet metal AA battery holder (Powder coated)
1 metal cap (Anode)
1 doughnut-shaped PCB (double-sided) 4.5mm radius (AA)
1 ADP1607
2 10uF 10V X5R capacitors (0402)
1 TDK 2.2uH MLP2016S2R2M inductor (0805)
2 resistors (0402)

incidentally the cheapest they are selling the batteriser for is $1.92 each for the AA and AAA size

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 06, 2015, 09:47:45 am

Quote from: DJohn on September 06, 2015, 09:14:43 am

What it shouldn't be: a witch-hunt against Batteroo, with people leaping on every new statement, tearing it apart, looking for the tiniest apparent inconsistency (even when there isn't one) and crying victory.  It makes you look petty, like you have some agenda that you haven't declared, and (when you see supposed failings that have other explanations) like you don't know what you're talking about.

What it should be: taking testable claims, and testing them.  That's what Dave has been doing, and that's what whoever it is doing the GPS tests is doing.

I agree.
There are plenty of testable claims, either via actual physical test, or via inspection and whiteboard and datasheet analysis using industry standard procedures and figures.
The GPS one is now thoroughly busted, although other people to confirm will add even more weight.
Want to verify the big thing in their latest "technical" video about power drops causing products to drop out? Simple - take a dozen random products and hook a datalogging multimeter on the battery terminals. Operate device until dead and get the plot.
See if:
a) There are any spikes at all
and
b) If there are, do they cause any problem?

Want to make that test quicker and easier?, that's easy, just discharge some batteries so only 10-20% energy remains (so it's worst case spikes due to high ESR) and capture the battery voltage on a scope. Maybe a few hours work for half a dozen products.
Claim either confirmed, or busted for half a dozen or a dozen typical products.
A few people do that and you have a lot of product data points.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on September 06, 2015, 09:51:34 am

ADP1607 has a max rating of -0.3V between Vin,out and GND. Mixing old and new batteries in series will likely cause damage to ADP1607 due to reserse charging.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 06, 2015, 09:53:09 am

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 06, 2015, 02:58:25 am

OMG, the idiot factor is high. UL is not issuing certification, then there would be a UL logo with copyright stuff. They received test verification. I have used UL like that in the past. It is real, not faked. It means they cannot put UL on the retail package, but UL tested and verified their results.
I am not going to go off and buy a Garmin G3 and test it, but I know people that use it on the golf course and they complain it gets 9 hours tops and they are not tapping the screen every 12-15 seconds. So, not sure what this result below is, but if UL tested it and verified, then I would believe UL over some guy on a blog. Make all of the videos you want to, and I know you will, I would say good luck, but I do not care about any of this crap.

Hey Davey_Jonez
For the record, who are you?
Are you in any way associated with Batteriser, Batteroo, or the "Fan Page", or do you know them?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 06, 2015, 10:27:09 am

I don't even know what they're trying to achieve anymore...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=169704;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 06, 2015, 10:46:14 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 06, 2015, 09:47:45 am

Quote from: DJohn on September 06, 2015, 09:14:43 am

What it shouldn't be: a witch-hunt against Batteroo, with people leaping on every new statement, tearing it apart, looking for the tiniest apparent inconsistency (even when there isn't one) and crying victory.

"That UL logo looks photoshopped", ...  are opinions.

What it should be: taking testable claims, and testing them.

I agree.
There are plenty of testable claims,

UL certification is a testable claim.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 06, 2015, 10:47:09 am

Is my "fear" for hazardous gases detectors valid? Could it go off without the ability to notify the user? If something like that occurs, what is the liability for Batteroo?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 06, 2015, 10:52:07 am

Quote from: firewalker on September 06, 2015, 10:47:09 am

Is my "fear" for hazardous gases detectors valid? Could it go off without the ability to notify the user? If something like that occurs, what is the liability for Batteroo?

Alexander.

Well, yes. All devices use the battery voltage to estimate the remaining power, and thus display a battery indicator or low-battery warning. With the Batteriser no battery indicators will work, as the device will think it has lots of power up until the DC-DC converter shuts down and device stops working suddenly. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 06, 2015, 10:59:03 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 06:33:35 pm

Data is beautiful!

So, I got it into excel and started massaging the data and got it into a nice graph.  VERY interesting results.  You can very clearly tell at what point the screen dimmed because it plateaus.  (again, I'm going to make a video today to put on youtube because people need to see this a real apples to apples test like this to show that batteriser is being very dishonest in their claims)

EDIT: this also means that if we didn't use the stupid servo to keep the screen on, this thing would probably easily do 20-25+ hours on fresh AA's

Nail is driven into coffin. Well done! If you make a video you can also show the different menu settings and the effect they have.

Can I make a suggestion? I know this is all your work, etc., but could you and Dave get together and collaborate on a video showing this result?

eg. Dave introduces the video saying, "Here's a guy who has the exact same GPS and has been testing it, the results are interesting...", then passes over to you with your test setup, your data, your screenshots, etc.

The reason is that Dave is under the spotlight of all things Batteriser. A lot more people will see it (and give it credibility?) if it's on EEVBLOG's Youtube channel.

(This is assuming You + Dave are interested, of course...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 06, 2015, 11:07:19 am

They should place a banner with huge letters stating that their product should not be used with any kind of safety device. They could find themselves in deep shit if something goes wrong...

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 06, 2015, 11:09:01 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 06, 2015, 10:59:03 am

eg. Dave introduces the video saying, "Here's a guy who has the exact same GPS and has been testing it, the results are interesting...", then passes over to you with your test setup, your data, your screenshots, etc.

The reason is that Dave is under the spotlight of all things Batteriser. A lot more people will see it (and give it credibility?) if it's on EEVBLOG's Youtube channel.

(This is assuming You + Dave are interested, of course...)

5ky did a video, here (read top comment): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw_jFIPxePc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw_jFIPxePc)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on September 06, 2015, 11:11:57 am

While the footprint and circuit matches what they've shown, I don't think the ADP1607 is suitable - it only goes down to 1.8V output. If Batterisers are outputting 1.8V that could be too high for some devices. Two of them in series will be 3.6V instead of 3V, and four of them give 7.2V instead of 6V - 20% higher.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 06, 2015, 11:28:35 am

Quote from: PeterL on September 05, 2015, 12:38:46 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on September 05, 2015, 12:01:19 pm

I didn't know about UL tests, but it sounds familiar to the TUV tests in Europe.
They only test security, not functionality.

I don't know about UL testing either, but from what I read in this thread they seem to offer more than just the certification.

Sorry I forgot, TUV also tests against compliance to the laws, security, radiation, EMC,... and in the medical/food field much more.
But doesn't (always, per definition) test the claims.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 06, 2015, 11:30:25 am

Quote from: amyk on September 06, 2015, 11:11:57 am

While the footprint and circuit matches what they've shown, I don't think the ADP1607 is suitable - it only goes down to 1.8V output. If Batterisers are outputting 1.8V that could be too high for some devices. Two of them in series will be 3.6V instead of 3V, and four of them give 7.2V instead of 6V - 20% higher.

Yeah, it's specced for 1.8-3.6V, but "The output voltage is set by a resistor voltage divider, R1, from the output voltage (VOUT) to the 1.259 V feedback input at FB and R2 from FB to GND". So you can get 1.6V out of it by tweaking the R1 and R2 values.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 06, 2015, 11:45:54 am

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on September 06, 2015, 11:09:01 am

5ky did a video, here (read top comment):

Two thumbs up for video. All the data, all presented loud and clear.

(A bit rambling towards the end but the important part at the beginning was spot on).

PS: I could do a Batteriser video if there's any left over (assuming they ever appear). If anybody else wants them I can post them onwards after I'm done...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SundayProgrammer on September 06, 2015, 11:48:33 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 06, 2015, 07:50:08 am

I don't see the batteriser doing more than about an amp, tops.

Based on my limited experience of GPS receiver modules I noticed (when I was designing GPS tracking system) that there can be some differences in power consumption whether the receiver is a) searching for satellites or b) locked to satellites. Ie the device is outside or inside for example. In that particular device can you see _any_ variations between those two operation stages?

Anyway... huge difference between test results! I am more and more interested to see how Batteriser works IRL. For example in action in this very same test (if you bought Garmin, you will probably buy couple of Batterisers too :-) )

Axel.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 06, 2015, 01:17:50 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on September 06, 2015, 09:23:25 am

incidentally the cheapest they are selling the batteriser for is $1.92 each for the AA and AAA size

I struggle to comprehend how they could possibly make that widget for such a low price and still turn a profit.
The IC alone costs 1.44$ in bulk (3,000 units) at Digi-key. If they rolled up their own (huge development cost), I doubt they could produce it for much cheaper than Analog Devices can sell theirs for.

The small package ADP1607 is rather impressive: More than 85% efficiency between 1mA and 100mA load current at Vin 0.8V.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on September 06, 2015, 01:41:23 pm

I just got this from igg, posting it here to have a useable timestamp:


It's not clear what John asked, this was a private message, but it looks like a reaction to 5ky's GPS test.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr.diesel on September 06, 2015, 01:45:48 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 06, 2015, 01:17:50 pm

I struggle to comprehend how they could possibly make that widget for such a low price and still turn a profit.

GIven what we've seen so far, I suspect their plan is to pay a few months salary to themselves and fold with no product ever being produced.  Be just another failed crowdfunding campaign.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on September 06, 2015, 01:51:14 pm

Quote from: samgab on September 06, 2015, 11:30:25 am

Quote from: amyk on September 06, 2015, 11:11:57 am

While the footprint and circuit matches what they've shown, I don't think the ADP1607 is suitable - it only goes down to 1.8V output. If Batterisers are outputting 1.8V that could be too high for some devices. Two of them in series will be 3.6V instead of 3V, and four of them give 7.2V instead of 6V - 20% higher.

Yeah, it's specced for 1.8-3.6V, but "The output voltage is set by a resistor voltage divider, R1, from the output voltage (VOUT) to the 1.259 V feedback input at FB and R2 from FB to GND". So you can get 1.6V out of it by tweaking the R1 and R2 values.

The regulation will probably be horrible though - there's a reason AD did not specify lower than 1.8V. Boost converters with low input voltages also use the output to power themselves, so things like the internal voltage reference are going to stop working properly if the output is set too low.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 06, 2015, 01:52:59 pm

I believe 5sky is a backer. He should comment on their campaign...  :box: :box: :box:

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on September 06, 2015, 03:43:44 pm

Quote from: firewalker on September 06, 2015, 01:52:59 pm

I believe 5sky is a backer. He should comment on their campaign...  :box: :box: :box:

Alexander.

Yeah he said so in the video. But he also pointed out something like "only for testing them"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on September 06, 2015, 04:19:26 pm

The funny thing is, that at least one sock pupet of Batteriser/Battero is in the comment section of the video from 5sky too.
(User:  Jones David)

But there he postet a really normal comment.

[Edit] Polished my crappy english.[/edit]

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on September 06, 2015, 04:29:19 pm

Quote from: PeterL on September 06, 2015, 01:41:23 pm

I just got this from igg, posting it here to have a useable timestamp:


It's not clear what John asked, this was a private message, but it looks like a reaction to 5ky's GPS test.

They are REALLY grasping at straws, i do not believe AT ALL they have any UL certification or testing.
And what kind of "answer" is that, no data, no nothing, just a stupid (fabricated looking) UL report saying THE SAME as their "test".
Also one more thing, every body says it takes some time getting a UL done, so why are they using the RED sleved batteriser they recently posted on not the original stainless steel only batteriser ones from 1+ mouth ago. ?

ANYBODY can see this:
Batteriser GPS: 2 Hours normal - 10 Hours Batteriser...
5ky GPS: 17 Hours normal.....
AND Reviews for that GPS: ALL over 15 hours normal
 
Looking forward for another user here that bought the same GPS, i bet it will be within 10% of 5ky´s test

Good job 5ky, really good test and very good video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: qoole on September 06, 2015, 04:33:58 pm

You've been featured, indirectly, on slashdot now!

http://news.slashdot.org/story/15/09/06/1230220/ddos-style-youtube-dislikes-for-sale (http://news.slashdot.org/story/15/09/06/1230220/ddos-style-youtube-dislikes-for-sale)

Which links to the Dell Secureworks website:

http://www.secureworks.com/resources/blog/negative-feedback-attack-on-a-youtube-channel/ (http://www.secureworks.com/resources/blog/negative-feedback-attack-on-a-youtube-channel/)

Watch out for incoming usage spikes!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 06, 2015, 04:44:27 pm

A couple of questions for 5ky now that he has his GPS and test setup:

(Both referring to Batteroo's graph from their video...)

a) Batteroo show a current draw of about 130mA at the start of their test. What input voltage would that correspond to? You can mess around with your power supply and find the voltage where it draws 130mA. Now look that voltage up on your chart, it might give us a clue about the state of their batteries at the start of their test. (Yeah, I know we don't know their burden voltage but we maybe we can get a ballpark figure).

b) Is the GPS a constant power device? Their graphs suggest it is. If so, why would Garmin even bother with that "NiMH" message? Your tests didn't seem to show a massive difference when the screen went 'dim' but could you measure power draw on either side of that bump? I'm interested in how much life would people lose if they select 'NiMH' in the menu to avoid that message then use alkalines?

(http://i58.tinypic.com/209o6xh.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 06, 2015, 05:01:40 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on September 06, 2015, 04:53:47 pm

I tried to find the UL project number , UL 4787059213 ...

Lots of people have.

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on September 06, 2015, 04:53:47 pm

Has anybody found the report at the UL Labs ?   :-//

Nope.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 06, 2015, 05:05:25 pm

As has been described on the forum, the project number is only an internal number, you won't find anything on it. You can search for the company when UL testing is completely and a report has been published.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 06, 2015, 05:15:04 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 06, 2015, 04:44:27 pm

A couple of questions for 5ky now that he has his GPS and test setup:

(Both referring to Batteroo's graph from their video...)

a) Batteroo show a current draw of about 130mA at the start of their test. What input voltage would that correspond to? You can mess around with your power supply and find the voltage where it draws 130mA. Now look that voltage up on your chart, it might give us a clue about the state of their batteries at the start of their test. (Yeah, I know we don't know their burden voltage but we maybe we can get a ballpark figure).

b) Is the GPS a constant power device? Their graphs suggest it is. If so, why would Garmin even bother with that "NiMH" message? Your tests didn't seem to show a massive difference when the screen went 'dim' but could you measure power draw on either side of that bump? I'm interested in how much life would people lose if they select 'NiMH' in the menu to avoid that message then use alkalines?

right at 3v, but the current jumps around on that unit even when you aren't touching it.  it occasionally jumps up to 250mA, and then back down to 90mA, but the majority of the time it's right at 130mA right at 3v, and when it's at 130mA, when I crank voltage down 100mV at a time, I see the current go up in ~10mA increments so it's definitely constant power.  Plus, on my voltage graph you see downward dips and on batteriser's current graph, you see upward peaks which probably correlate with those downward dips

I'm guessing they started with fresh batteries, and their logger has 1-2 ohm shunt, and the burden voltage caused the brightness warning to come on a 2 hr mark, and that's where they called it and lied and said that the unit shut off.  (which we all know is BS)

EDIT: WORDS AND STUFF

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 06, 2015, 05:29:11 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 06, 2015, 10:59:03 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 06:33:35 pm

Data is beautiful!

So, I got it into excel and started massaging the data and got it into a nice graph.  VERY interesting results.  You can very clearly tell at what point the screen dimmed because it plateaus.  (again, I'm going to make a video today to put on youtube because people need to see this a real apples to apples test like this to show that batteriser is being very dishonest in their claims)

EDIT: this also means that if we didn't use the stupid servo to keep the screen on, this thing would probably easily do 20-25+ hours on fresh AA's

Nail is driven into coffin. Well done! If you make a video you can also show the different menu settings and the effect they have.

Can I make a suggestion? I know this is all your work, etc., but could you and Dave get together and collaborate on a video showing this result?

eg. Dave introduces the video saying, "Here's a guy who has the exact same GPS and has been testing it, the results are interesting...", then passes over to you with your test setup, your data, your screenshots, etc.

The reason is that Dave is under the spotlight of all things Batteriser. A lot more people will see it (and give it credibility?) if it's on EEVBLOG's Youtube channel.

(This is assuming You + Dave are interested, of course...)

I would gladly pack up the entire setup and mail it to dave if he'd like to use it in any way, shape, or form.  Just let me know!

Quote from: Fungus on September 06, 2015, 11:45:54 am

(A bit rambling towards the end but the important part at the beginning was spot on).

PS: I could do a Batteriser video if there's any left over (assuming they ever appear). If anybody else wants them I can post them onwards after I'm done...

Yeah, sorry about the rambling--I'm pretty bad about rambling.  I get excited and geek out about stuff like this.  :scared:

Quote from: SundayProgrammer on September 06, 2015, 11:48:33 am

Anyway... huge difference between test results! I am more and more interested to see how Batteriser works IRL. For example in action in this very same test (if you bought Garmin, you will probably buy couple of Batterisers too :-) )

I have supported their campaign just to get some samples to test and am already planning to mail some out to vbloggers like dave who could put it through their paces  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 06, 2015, 05:50:44 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 06, 2015, 05:15:04 pm

I'm guessing they started with fresh batteries, and their logger has 1-2 ohm shunt

I had calculated a similar shunt resistance too. Just thinking, would the 1 or 2 ohm shunt roughly support the batterised (what was the operational hours, 10hr or so?) service time?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on September 06, 2015, 06:21:13 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 06, 2015, 05:29:11 pm

I have supported their campaign just to get some samples to test and am already planning to mail some out to vbloggers like dave who could put it through their paces  :-+

lol, i backed them a while ago for the same reasons, i guess there will be plenty to go around... well if we get something for our hard earned!!

great video BTW

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 06, 2015, 06:28:43 pm

Quote from: DJohn on September 06, 2015, 09:14:43 am

What it shouldn't be: a witch-hunt against Batteroo, with people leaping on every new statement, tearing it apart, looking for the tiniest apparent inconsistency (even when there isn't one) and crying victory.  It makes you look petty, like you have some agenda that you haven't declared, and (when you see supposed failings that have other explanations) like you don't know what you're talking about.

I also agree, and I give thanks to all members on the forum who have been doing their own testing to try and replicate Batteroo's claims, and have stuck to arguing the science and engineering aspect of this entertaining campaign.

However, I believe there is some pent up frustration as to what has been going on with IndieGogo in particular and the growing examples of many questionable tech devices especially. The storm that ensued Batteriser's far-out claims and flame war may be just the beginning of what places like IndieGogo will have to deal with, given that censorship on the site is so prevalent. I agree, keep with the science, but it alone my not attract attention to give a balanced opinion, and certainly would be censored on those sites. But hey, EE's are also human, they are not all Mr. Spock. :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Simon on September 06, 2015, 06:36:03 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on September 06, 2015, 04:29:19 pm

They are REALLY grasping at straws, i do not believe AT ALL they have any UL certification or testing.
And what kind of "answer" is that, no data, no nothing, just a stupid (fabricated looking) UL report saying THE SAME as their "test".
Also one more thing, every body says it takes some time getting a UL done, so why are they using the RED sleved batteriser they recently posted on not the original stainless steel only batteriser ones from 1+ mouth ago. ?

I'm going to guess that the whole thing is a fabrication, UL do NOT test to manufacturer claims, they test to say it is safe, and that would not include particular cases where a peice of safety equipment needs to see a gradual run down so that it can warn of battery failure before its too late. Surely UL can be contatced and asked to provide any testing they carried out.

Any decent product would have a boost converter built in and therefore also be able to monitor battery level. a bunch of batterizers in series is not even a clever idea...... so much waste.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 06, 2015, 06:37:22 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 06, 2015, 05:15:04 pm

I'm guessing they started with fresh batteries, and their logger has 1-2 ohm shunt, and the burden voltage caused the brightness warning to come on a 2 hr mark, and that's where they called it and lied and said that the unit shut off.  (which we all know is BS)

I did a Google image search for "current data logger" and on the first page was a device that looked like what they used, probably a Hantek365, a low cost USB multimeter. The manual (you have to create an account to download it, but eMail is not verified, then you have to rename the downloaded ZIP file to PDF, pretty horrible website) doesn't specify the shunt resistance. This is a screenshot of the software in the manual:
(http://i.imgur.com/gqpcnwj.png)
Looks exactly like in their video. With a 2 ohm shunt it would be up to 500 mV voltage drop with the spikes, but this would be a very high shunt. At least they are using the A input, not mA, so it should be much lower than 1 ohm, even with the additional cables and connectors. Of course, they didn't show the voltage curve in their test video with the "fresh" batteries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on September 06, 2015, 06:38:30 pm

Quote from: DJohn on September 06, 2015, 09:14:43 am

Quote from: Circuiteromalaguito on September 05, 2015, 09:39:42 pm

May I say conspiranoid and even more crazy than usual if I think about the following?

Yes, you sound like a 'conspiranoid'.  This is why I've been keeping out of this whole thing.

What it shouldn't be: a witch-hunt against Batteroo, with people leaping on every new statement, tearing it apart, looking for the tiniest apparent inconsistency (even when there isn't one) and crying victory.  It makes you look petty, like you have some agenda that you haven't declared, and (when you see supposed failings that have other explanations) like you don't know what you're talking about.

I must confess I do have a specific agenda. I do not like to see reputable EE/VC get away with a scam.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 06, 2015, 07:15:46 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on September 06, 2015, 06:37:22 pm

With a 2 ohm shunt it would be up to 500 mV voltage drop with the spikes, but this would be a very high shunt. At least they are using the A input, not mA, so it should be much lower than 1 ohm, even with the additional cables and connectors. Of course, they didn't show the voltage curve in their test video with the "fresh" batteries.

My main multimeter has a 1.5mV/mA burden voltage in the 500mA range, resulting in 1.5 ohm. So I guess order magnitude for such a range is viable. Of course the calculated "shunt resistor" includes the difference in wiring between the two tests. I agree that it looks from the video that they've set up the Amps input jack. Of course we don't have a test protocol that actually describes which ranges, equipment, inputs, battery age, ... are used (would've been nice if the voltage at the GPS terminals was measured too). There is no way to tell if they changed the setup for the published duration tests. But maybe we should allow them some credit, we might be missing something.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 06, 2015, 07:18:50 pm

Quote from: edy on September 06, 2015, 06:28:43 pm

Quote from: DJohn on September 06, 2015, 09:14:43 am

What it shouldn't be: a witch-hunt against Batteroo, with people leaping on every new statement, tearing it apart, looking for the tiniest apparent inconsistency (even when there isn't one) and crying victory.  It makes you look petty, like you have some agenda that you haven't declared, and (when you see supposed failings that have other explanations) like you don't know what you're talking about.

I also agree, and I give thanks to all members on the forum who have been doing their own testing to try and replicate Batteroo's claims, and have stuck to arguing the science and engineering aspect of this entertaining campaign.

I'm in the middle.

I mean...these guys are thieves. Plain and simple. Their product is a lie, they know it, but they're still going after people's money. Venture capitalists first, now IndieGoGo users, next up: Government+taxpayers (they've mentioned they want to "support the troops" by lightening the heavy load of batteries they carry around).

You'd hope a government/military would be smart enough to figure out the scam but they don't exactly have a stellar record (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29459896). If Batteroo have an impressive board of directors, successful crowdfunding behind them, UL certification, slick salesmen... who knows whether or not the rigged demos will get past the top brass or not? Do you want to see crates full of Batterisers being shipped out to war zones on the taxpayer dollar? I don't.

So I say: No name calling or personal attacks, but, yes, look for the tiniest inconsistencies. You never know where it will lead.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 06, 2015, 07:33:50 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 06, 2015, 01:17:50 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on September 06, 2015, 09:23:25 am

incidentally the cheapest they are selling the batteriser for is $1.92 each for the AA and AAA size

I struggle to comprehend how they could possibly make that widget for such a low price and still turn a profit.
The IC alone costs 1.44$ in bulk (3,000 units) at Digi-key. If they rolled up their own (huge development cost), I doubt they could produce it for much cheaper than Analog Devices can sell theirs for.

The small package ADP1607 is rather impressive: More than 85% efficiency between 1mA and 100mA load current at Vin 0.8V.

That's not the impressive part. The impressive part is the list of matching miniature inductors. There's one (http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?KeyWords=MLP2016S2R2M&WT.z_header=search_go) which measures 2.0x1.6x1.0 mm and can handle 1.2 amps.

3.2 cubic millimeters, 1.2 amps, 12 cents each on Digikey.

(adjusts internal model of what inductors can do)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ziq8tsi on September 06, 2015, 07:48:08 pm

Quote

So the batteriser test CLEARLY stops the test when the brightness warning appears on the screen, and they call that the point at which is "shuts down and the screen dims to black"?

Attention consumers!  Do you discard batteries at the first sniff of a warning message, or when the battery display goes down even one bar?  You could be wasting up to 80% of your cells' voltage power energy.

Batteriser's patented technology effectively disables the battery gauge on all of your favorite products, thereby saving you money!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chris74656 on September 06, 2015, 08:09:34 pm

Don't forget they are making AAA, C and D sizes as well.

Will all that circuitry fit onto a AAA? What about the higher current for C and D cells?  100mA D cell anyone? :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 06, 2015, 09:01:11 pm

And yet ANOTHER claim:  one cannot refute Batteroo's claims without possession of a Batteriser.

Oh contraire, young Ali, we can.  The premises upon which your technology is based on are faulty, i.e. completely wrong. We have thoroughly, utterly, and completely refuted the premise that a battery that has depleted 90-95% of its energy, can suddenly supply 4X to 7X more energy by attaching your device.  The energy is not there.  The only way that your device can "work" is through gerrymandering the tests in order to artificially force the device to power off earlier than normal and leave enough energy remaining for your test to "work." 

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=169782;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 06, 2015, 09:09:37 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 06, 2015, 01:17:50 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on September 06, 2015, 09:23:25 am

incidentally the cheapest they are selling the batteriser for is $1.92 each for the AA and AAA size

I struggle to comprehend how they could possibly make that widget for such a low price and still turn a profit.
The IC alone costs 1.44$ in bulk (3,000 units) at Digi-key. If they rolled up their own (huge development cost), I doubt they could produce it for much cheaper than Analog Devices can sell theirs for.

I think we should be careful about using Digikey or Mouser pricing.  It is very common to negotiate pricing directly with the manufacturer when buying in very large volume.  If Flextronics was/is the CM on this, they have considerable negotiating power.  Even with that, one has to be careful with a CM's book pricing because the component suppliers will offer rebates to the CM so that customer's think the CM's margin is lower than it really is.

That said, I think it is a very reasonable conclusion that Batteroo is in deep trouble with their BOM costs and their tooling costs. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 06, 2015, 09:27:52 pm

Oh Ali Roohparvar... swing and a miss matey! I particularly loved his "UL is a lot more credible than some teenagers making inaccurate blog videos", which thankfully is not what has been occurring. The only teenager making inaccurate claims is Batteriser's "Fan Club" (AKA David Jonez or whatever he wants to call himself this week).

If UL have legitimately performed any kind of testing, there will be verifiable proof of it (such as the original test report). So far, nothing has surfaced and once again, Batteroo are digging themselves into an even deeper hole. Their credibility has been shot to pieces long time ago so no matter what they post is usually false or will be picked to pieces.

If Batteroo had even the smallest shred of dignity left, they would simply mail a sample of the Batteriser sleeve to the EEVblog. For the benefit of Roohparvar et. al. that address is:

Batteriser Debunking Competition
c/- Dave Jones
PO Box 7949
BAULKHAM HILLS   NSW   2153
AUSTRALIA

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on September 06, 2015, 09:31:29 pm

You won't get parts by AD, TI etc. for vastly less than Digikey etc., however it's quite possible that  similar devices exist in the Chinese market at very low prices.
If you look in Chinese mass-market products you won't often see run-of-the-mill functions like regulators from big-names like TI,Maxim,LT etc.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JSnyder on September 06, 2015, 09:52:26 pm

"UL is a lot more credible than some teenagers making inaccurate blog videos" Wow. Uh. We haven't even seen a PROPER UL report, we don't have a PROPER UL reference number to look up, "batteriser" and "batteroo" return no results in UL's database. And this is the leg they want to stand on, good call. At this point that "teenager making inaccurate blog videos" is an order of magnitude more transparent and definitive in his test setup/parameters then anything batteriser have released thus far. And contrary to popular belief (ahem Roohparvar) comparing a device's battery life with just plain 'ol (new) batteries (to their published figures for the batteriser-less test) doesn't actually require a batteriser sleeve to do.  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on September 07, 2015, 12:37:10 am

Quote from: photon on September 06, 2015, 06:38:30 pm

Quote from: DJohn on September 06, 2015, 09:14:43 am

Quote from: Circuiteromalaguito on September 05, 2015, 09:39:42 pm

May I say conspiranoid and even more crazy than usual if I think about the following?

Yes, you sound like a 'conspiranoid'.  This is why I've been keeping out of this whole thing.

What it shouldn't be: a witch-hunt against Batteroo, with people leaping on every new statement, tearing it apart, looking for the tiniest apparent inconsistency (even when there isn't one) and crying victory.  It makes you look petty, like you have some agenda that you haven't declared, and (when you see supposed failings that have other explanations) like you don't know what you're talking about.

I must confess I do have a specific agenda. I do not like to see reputable EE/VC get away with a scam.

Yes, I agree. I try to avoid that thinking and question myself certain ideas, shifting to the kickball side and real data. I often do personal introspection about my thinking was, beliefs and knowledge. But never if enough.

 Thanks for checking my wrong thinking, it's really appreciated. I really miss it from loved people that I see or contact them daily or very often and help them very often too, but they prefer to be polite instead.

But I already see technical careers are often very underestimated in the mainstream world. Tons of people see us as weird people that must solve their "important" problems, and do it fast. It doesn't matter if it's a family member, your boyfriend girlfriend, a friend or your narcissistic boss.

People underestimate our skills, efforts and problems. We are often seen as one if those tools they have no damn clue to understand our repair, something I dislike and fight against that defensively write often. I'm somewhat of a grumpy geeky guy.

That's not enough. Average people are even more illiterate about technology than other topics, at least in my country. I understand not everyone want to be an engineer, but I consider  stuff such as Ohm's Law a lot more useful for everyday than insanely detailed topics in geography and history.

This is a great opportunity to skilled scammers to theft money from too many of those unfortunately very ignorant people about technology and science basics.

This is a shame and a curse to all of us. I'm having a very hard time learning electronics due to very diverse reasons and would love to someday be at least something near an EE. This kind of shit makes things even worse.

I consider scammers in science field to be dangerous criminals a lot more than those persecuted "intellectual property" infringers, because they can involve health risks up to very dangerous legend and can damage the reputation of professionals to get their jobs

Quote from: EEVblog on September 06, 2015, 09:47:45 am

Quote from: DJohn on September 06, 2015, 09:14:43 am

What it shouldn't be: a witch-hunt against Batteroo, with people leaping on every new statement, tearing it apart, looking for the tiniest apparent inconsistency (even when there isn't one) and crying victory.  It makes you look petty, like you have some agenda that you haven't declared, and (when you see supposed failings that have other explanations) like you don't know what you're talking about.

What it should be: taking testable claims, and testing them.  That's what Dave has been doing, and that's what whoever it is doing the GPS tests is doing.

I agree.
There are plenty of testable claims, either via actual physical test, or via inspection and whiteboard and datasheet analysis using industry standard procedures and figures.
The GPS one is now thoroughly busted, although other people to confirm will add even more weight.
Want to verify the big thing in their latest "technical" video about power drops causing products to drop out? Simple - take a dozen random products and hook a datalogging multimeter on the battery terminals. Operate device until dead and get the plot.
See if:
a) There are any spikes at all
and
b) If there are, do they cause any problem?

Want to make that test quicker and easier?, that's easy, just discharge some batteries so only 10-20% energy remains (so it's worst case spikes due to high ESR) and capture the battery voltage on a scope. Maybe a few hours work for half a dozen products.
Claim either confirmed, or busted for half a dozen or a dozen typical products.
A few people do that and you have a lot of product data points.

I agree hard scientific data is the most important thing here. And not only because authentic testing and EE knowledge is the most solid reason, but because this has a very important didactic value.

But I think it's important to know the legal and institutional sides of this:

-  What do UL think about this and if that testing is real? Are they reliable as a testing organization? Do they really care about their reputation in a professional and strict way?
- What about professional background? What were their real times at companies such as Micron?
- What's the reputation of that university? Are there some background about them?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 07, 2015, 01:58:47 am

Quote from: Circuiteromalaguito on September 07, 2015, 12:37:10 am

But I think it's important to know the legal and institutional sides of this:

-  What do UL think about this and if that testing is real? Are they reliable as a testing organization? Do they really care about their reputation in a professional and strict way?
- What about professional background? What were their real times at companies such as Micron?
- What's the reputation of that university? Are there some background about them?

I am curious to know as well. The Roohparvars are both highly educated and know the performance expected out of the Batteriser. Where I think it went all wrong was a poor decision along the way on how to market this device and what words and numbers were chosen to represent the utility of the Batteriser.

I'm not sure if once they got caught with egg on their face, they had too much pride to change the story, or if they were knee deep into financial obligations to be able to alter course. So they decided to fight the claims and hide things or continue confusing everyone to just buy time.

I said it before, the Batteriser has some specific utility. But the list of good uses would confuse the heck out of people.... So marketing just said "up to 8x" and generalized it, without putting a disclaimer listing at all for when and where it should be used. Someone already mentioned smoke alarms may not warn users when the battery is getting low with a chirp and turn off immediately, creating a safety hazard.

The marketing is mostly to blame. If the Batteriser does exist, I have no doubt the Roohparvars worked hard to make it, and probably believe that they accomplished something awesome... and rightly so. But once the smoke and mirrors started to come out to justify the bad marketing exaggerations, Batteroo didn't know when to quit, and for whatever reason continue on this ridiculous charade. I want to know when and why and who decided on the marketing copy and whether it was one of the Roohparvars or some external marketing firm, or the VC firm, and why nobody wants to start toning down the exaggerations on how much battery capacity is used normally by most devices (and don't give me this 20% B.S.) and what really the Batteriser is beneficial for.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrRobSteel on September 07, 2015, 02:05:52 am

I took one look at thier UL test report and I'm pretty sure I can smell the BS from here.

One quick search for 'UL TEST REPORT AND PROCEDURE' later, shows plenty of legitimate test reports. None of them look remotely like the one they claim to have.

I agree if it's fake it's about the worst thing they could do, could be marketing dumbing it down for the public though.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on September 07, 2015, 02:39:51 am

Quote from: MrRobSteel on September 07, 2015, 02:05:52 am

I took one look at thier UL test report and I'm pretty sure I can smell the BS from here.

One quick search for 'UL TEST REPORT AND PROCEDURE' later, shows plenty of legitimate test reports. None of them look remotely like the one they claim to have.

I agree if it's fake it's about the worst thing they could do, could be marketing dumbing it down for the public though.

Indeed. Observe in particular that none of the reports actually have the UL logo in them, except those for which they've stated to have completed the testing successfully; here's one example of that: http://www.ultralevel.com.tw/upload/files/PRL1201%20safety.pdf (http://www.ultralevel.com.tw/upload/files/PRL1201%20safety.pdf)

Those that are authorised to use the UL logo will have the accompanying file number too, which can be looked up on the UL website.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on September 07, 2015, 02:50:27 am

In a way, Batteriser's claimed UL performance test was a test of Garmin's GPS. Could this be legally done without the consent and cooperation of Garmin? After all, only Garmin can officially provide the  proper test conditions and the meanings of the modes, messages  and powering levels/stages.  Did Garmin know about the tests?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 07, 2015, 03:15:05 am

Quote from: onlooker on September 07, 2015, 02:50:27 am

In a way, Batteriser's claimed UL performance test was a test of Garmin's GPS. Could this be legally done without the consent and cooperation of Garmin? After all, only Garmin can officially provide the  proper test conditions and the meanings of the modes, messages  and powering levels/stages.  Did Garmin know about the tests?

I'm pretty sure you're allowed to test any product that you own. But I would love for Garmin to go to media with factual info about their (discontinued) G3 product's battery life, and the 1000's of happy customers they have of that product who are regularly getting many times more than 2 hours of usable life with Alkaline cells while they play golf using it. Yet another nail in the coffin, that would be.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on September 07, 2015, 03:32:52 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 06, 2015, 09:27:52 pm

Batteriser Debunking Competition

So that there is no bias I would also love to see The Signal Path let the cat out of the bag on this one but I did not see his name on the list, obviously they have some huge support based on the backers list particularly from the one pictured below.

And does anyone know what percentage IGG or KS get from these promotions, if it's not much then it's cheap advertising.

Simon says clap your hands, silly monkey.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 07, 2015, 03:41:44 am

Oh. So I've been arguing with another fake youtube profile. Lmao.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 07, 2015, 06:09:40 am

I'm very curious to get Garmin's take on this G3 GPS test, and the claims of their device getting 1 hr & 43 mins on a new set of Alkalines.
So I emailed their support department:

Quote

"The company startup "Batteroo" with the pending product "Batteriser" have published a video in which they claim to test a Garmin Approach G3 using new Alkaline batteries, and they state that it only lasts 1 hour and 52 minutes before it dies. this claim has been widely spread on youtube, their own website, and other parts of the internet.
Can Garmin confirm or refute whether the Approach G3 will only last for under 2 hours on new Alkaline Duracell batteries, and then the batteries would need to be changed?
Thank you for your assistance.
Best Regards,
Sam
PS Here are the relevant links:
(Links to the youtube videos and the batteriser site removed.)

And a picture which shows, they claim, a UL test confirming their test findings that the Approach G3 runs for less than 2 hours on new Alkalines (1 hr 43 mins this time!):
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COGdNPQUcAA8XuS.jpg (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COGdNPQUcAA8XuS.jpg)

I appreciate your comment on this."

It will be interesting to see their take on it. I don't know if this email will make it past the first level support pleb at Garmin, get a form reply, or if it will get elevated. Will report back. I'm taking this step, because if I was involved in the design of the G3, I would want to know if something like this was being circulated. Presumably someone at Garmin wants to know this too.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on September 07, 2015, 06:21:39 am

What a 2-hour life GPS device would be useful for? For taking your home from the local mall after buying grosseries? Who in their right mind would use or make such short life devices that are crucial for outdoor activities.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on September 07, 2015, 06:23:06 am

Quote from: samgab on September 07, 2015, 06:09:40 am

I'm very curious to get Garmin's take on this G3 GPS test, and the claims of their device getting 1 hr & 43 mins on a new set of Alkalines.
So I emailed their support department:

Quote

"The company startup "Batteroo" with the pending product "Batteriser" have published a video in which they claim to test a Garmin Approach G3 using new Alkaline batteries, and they state that it only lasts 1 hour and 52 minutes before it dies. this claim has been widely spread on youtube, their own website, and other parts of the internet.
Can Garmin confirm or refute whether the Approach G3 will only last for under 2 hours on new Alkaline Duracell batteries, and then the batteries would need to be changed?
Thank you for your assistance.
Best Regards,
Sam
PS Here are the relevant links:
(Links to the youtube videos and the batteriser site removed.)

And a picture which shows, they claim, a UL test confirming their test findings that the Approach G3 runs for less than 2 hours on new Alkalines (1 hr 43 mins this time!):
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COGdNPQUcAA8XuS.jpg (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COGdNPQUcAA8XuS.jpg)

I appreciate your comment on this."

It will be interesting to see their take on it. I don't know if this email will make it past the first level support pleb at Garmin, get a form reply, or if it will get elevated. Will report back. I'm taking this step, because if I was involved in the design of the G3, I would want to know if something like this was being circulated. Presumably someone at Garmin wants to know this too.

good idea, did you send it to PR dep too? PR is more suitable for this. Even better if this inquiry was made by someone backed by a wall of readers/subscribers (like Dave :P).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 07, 2015, 06:51:06 am

Quote from: Rasz on Today at 04:23:06 PM (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=48950.msg748673#msg748673)

good idea, did you send it to PR dep too? PR is more suitable for this. Even better if this inquiry was made by someone backed by a wall of readers/subscribers (like Dave :P ).

I hadn't contacted PR. I don't know how to contact them. I found this:

You can contact our media department via email at: media.relations@garmin.com (media.relations@garmin.com?subject=Email%20from%20Garmin.com)



EDIT: Grr, what is up with the editor on this thing... Anyway, so I emailed them too. Will await reply.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on September 07, 2015, 07:29:14 am

tweeting garmin would work too, or bookfacing them

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 07, 2015, 07:30:01 am

Is anyone keeping a running list of Batteroo's claims, failures and successes (if they have any)? Would be good to see them summaries. Most of them will probably have "Busted" next to them.

Quote from: Rasz on September 07, 2015, 07:29:14 am

tweeting garmin would work too, or bookfacing them

Get with the times, everyone's using Friendface these days ;-)

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/76/5a/6f/765a6f3c7775d7dafb31631a077217db.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 07, 2015, 09:19:38 am

Here is another candidate IC, LTC3526: Start voltage 0.85V, operates down to 0.5V, output voltage 1.6V, 2mmx2mm, 100mA, 80% efficiency.
About 2$ each for 3000 units at Digi-Key.
Lots of versions available, some with lower start voltage, 1.5V out, 1MHz or 2 MHz switching.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=169862;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 07, 2015, 09:56:39 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 07, 2015, 03:32:52 am

So that there is no bias I would also love to see The Signal Path let the cat out of the bag on this one but I did not see his name on the list, obviously they have some huge support based on the backers list particularly from the one pictured below.

That Jones David is not me.
Another Batteriser shill has been using "Jones David" in youtube comments on various videos.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 07, 2015, 09:58:21 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 07, 2015, 07:30:01 am

Is anyone keeping a running list of Batteroo's claims, failures and successes (if they have any)? Would be good to see them summaries. Most of them will probably have "Busted" next to them.

That would be interesting.
They have changed their website and claims so many times it's actually hard to keep up. Most of them are documented here somewhere.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 07, 2015, 10:05:20 am

Here is one:

Our technology is really a miniaturization technique that allows us to build the sleeve. We have some IP in some of the IC circuits that are in there, but the key is we’ve been able to miniaturize the boost circuit to a point that no one else has been able to achieve.

BUSTED!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 07, 2015, 10:06:50 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 06, 2015, 09:01:11 pm

And yet ANOTHER claim:  one cannot refute Batteroo's claims without possession of a Batteriser.
Oh contraire, young Ali, we can.

Yes we certainly can in the case of the GPS, because they are making very specific claims about the GPS with standard Alkaline cells. Anyone can reproduce this this, and they have, thus proving, not only beyond all doubt, but demonstrably as a true measured fact, that their claim of the 2 hour operational product life on Alkalines is simply wrong.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on September 07, 2015, 10:37:15 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 07, 2015, 09:58:21 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 07, 2015, 07:30:01 am

Is anyone keeping a running list of Batteroo's claims, failures and successes (if they have any)? Would be good to see them summaries. Most of them will probably have "Busted" next to them.

That would be interesting.
They have changed their website and claims so many times it's actually hard to keep up. Most of them are documented here somewhere.

I think the torch test is next on the list and was surprised to see exactly the same lux level in their exaggeration experiment, my lux meter display varies if a mozzie flies over the top.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 07, 2015, 10:50:21 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 07, 2015, 07:30:01 am

Is anyone keeping a running list of Batteroo's claims, failures and successes (if they have any)? Would be good to see them summaries.

I could look into making an automatic daily screen capture of the batteriser.com website. I may just I have the tools readily installed on my webserver for that, but it'd need some specific setting up and the like. Raise hands if that's useful.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 07, 2015, 10:57:54 am

Quote from: jippie on September 07, 2015, 10:50:21 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 07, 2015, 07:30:01 am

Is anyone keeping a running list of Batteroo's claims, failures and successes (if they have any)? Would be good to see them summaries.

I could look into making an automatic daily screen capture of the batteriser.com website. I may just I have the tools readily installed on my webserver for that, but it'd need some specific setting up and the like. Raise hands if that's useful.

You can use a service like https://www.changedetection.com (https://www.changedetection.com) to automatically keep track of website changes when they happen, and email you to notify you of any changes. I've added Batteriser.com to my changedetection.com list.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 07, 2015, 11:08:29 am

5Ky, you where asking about the screen technology for the GPS. It's what we call a transflective display, meaning that it is build to be sun readable and can also be used with a backlight.
It's the same sort of screen that Pebble use for the Time, and garmin for their own smartwatch and some other outdoor based GPS.

The main idea is of course as outside there is generally plenty of luminosity (direct sun or not) we can read the screen without the need of a power hungry backlight, but we still keep a backlight in case you want to use the device at night or indoor with poor lighting. So your 17hr test is even wrong because no one would use this specific device with a constant backlight on, I'm sure that without the backlight we could gain, at least, from 2 to 5 more hours of run time.

For the screen there are plenty different type of transflective screen, some of them are coloured with and without a backlight (like the Pebble Time and it seems this garmin GPS) some other are coloured with the backlight, and grayscaled without (like the PixelQi screen)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 07, 2015, 11:09:09 am

Quote from: samgab on September 07, 2015, 10:57:54 am

Quote from: jippie on September 07, 2015, 10:50:21 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 07, 2015, 07:30:01 am

Is anyone keeping a running list of Batteroo's claims, failures and successes (if they have any)? Would be good to see them summaries.

I could look into making an automatic daily screen capture of the batteriser.com website. I may just I have the tools readily installed on my webserver for that, but it'd need some specific setting up and the like. Raise hands if that's useful.

You can use a service like https://www.changedetection.com (https://www.changedetection.com) to automatically keep track of website changes when they happen, and email you to notify you of any changes. I've added Batteriser.com to my changedetection.com list.

I added that functionality to my local RSS-aggregator. Hadn't thought of adding bitteriser.com yet. OTOH I was thinking actual screenshots rather than textual (or HTML) differences.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Quarlo Klobrigney on September 07, 2015, 11:21:32 am

Did anyone comment on the typo in the UL "testing" screenshot? It says "the batter holder". Would UL release a document with a typo? You be the judge.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 07, 2015, 11:31:22 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 06:33:35 pm

Data is beautiful!

So, I got it into excel and started massaging the data and got it into a nice graph.  VERY interesting results.  You can very clearly tell at what point the screen dimmed because it plateaus.  (again, I'm going to make a video today to put on youtube because people need to see this a real apples to apples test like this to show that batteriser is being very dishonest in their claims)

I don't know if I missed it, but please measure how much Wh the garmin device needs at 3V constant voltage for maybe 1 hour. I think we can assume that most modern batteries have more or less the same capacity, or at least they used the best available battery brand for longer runtime. With the Batteriser the GPS device runs for 10 hours, they say in the video. Can't be compared to the 17 hours without the batteriser, because of the dimmed screen after some hours, but it is easy to calculate the (average) efficiency of the boost converter, if we know how much energy it needs. This would be a useful number, because then we could say, for any device which operates down to 1.1V or 1V, where the battery is nearly discharged, that it would last x% less time than with the batterieser. The number would be independant of the device, because with the constant voltage, most devices become constant current devices (when running). But might vary for lower/higher current.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 07, 2015, 12:03:07 pm

Quote from: samgab on September 07, 2015, 06:09:40 am

...It will be interesting to see their take on it. I don't know if this email will make it past the first level support pleb at Garmin, get a form reply, or if it will get elevated. Will report back. I'm taking this step, because if I was involved in the design of the G3, I would want to know if something like this was being circulated. Presumably someone at Garmin wants to know this too.

I expect, If passed the first barrier, an answer like this: Garmin user terms and conditions doesn't include the use of these devices, warranty will be void.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 07, 2015, 05:06:19 pm

Batteroo/Brad Jones/Batteriser/Ali RPV/David Parish/... comes with some new data:
I'm nearly addicted to his style.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 07, 2015, 05:26:32 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on September 07, 2015, 05:06:19 pm

I'm nearly addicted to his style.

It is boring and sad, written by an insecure person, who does this with an anonymous account (which of course is not anonymous anymore, if someone gets a subpoena because someone decided that he insulted or threatened too much). He doesn't have technical arguments.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 07, 2015, 05:29:31 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on September 07, 2015, 05:26:32 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on September 07, 2015, 05:06:19 pm

I'm nearly addicted to his style.

It is boring and sad, written by an insecure person, who does this with an anonymous account (which of course is not anonymous anymore, if someone gets a subpoena because someone decided that he insulted or threatened too much). He doesn't have technical arguments.

You fucking retard, you dont'know anything about it, you are payed by the industry of...

Sorry, I'm really getting into his style :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 07, 2015, 05:30:01 pm

They really thought that no one would buy the specific GPS unit and make the same test? Are they so naive?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 07, 2015, 05:30:57 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on September 07, 2015, 05:06:19 pm

Batteroo/Brad Jones/Batteriser/Ali RPV/David Parish/... comes with some new data:
I'm nearly addicted to his style.

On what video are those comments?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 07, 2015, 05:39:04 pm

Quote from: firewalker on September 07, 2015, 05:30:01 pm

They really thought that no one would buy the specific GPS unit and make the same test? Are they so naive?

The world of "teenage bloggers" seems quite alien to them, yes.

I'm sure they're used to dealing with other people in suits whose eyes glaze over as soon as you start talking about power efficiency curves. People checking the facts has come as a big shock.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: NoItAint on September 07, 2015, 05:57:04 pm

When I buy a product, if there's one with UL trademark label, and one without, I always go for the UL Label.  I purely though it was about safety considerations.   If it instead means that a company can pass some contrived test to UL labs and it past the contrived test then this makes me rather sick to my stomach.

If true, it will totally change the way I buy gear.
 :(

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 07, 2015, 06:02:23 pm

Batteroo is being really nice, can't you see. Ali has offered a member of the military some free sleeves because he needed an odd number and Batterisers are only packaged in groups of 4. Just send in your ID to Ali to qualify (see attached).

Seriously though, I don't think there is much more to debate and certainly nothing productive can come out of arguing with the Brad Jones/Parrish guy. We still have a UL response coming... and maybe Garmin will chime in..... Until then, I would just let things run along. Batteroo will likely shoot themselves in the foot again, like they have up until now. There is no need to do anything, they are fumbling it all on their own.

I would wait until we hear back from UL, Garmin, and wait until they ship these units. It's only a few more months.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 07, 2015, 06:04:45 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on September 07, 2015, 11:31:22 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 05, 2015, 06:33:35 pm

Data is beautiful!

So, I got it into excel and started massaging the data and got it into a nice graph.  VERY interesting results.  You can very clearly tell at what point the screen dimmed because it plateaus.  (again, I'm going to make a video today to put on youtube because people need to see this a real apples to apples test like this to show that batteriser is being very dishonest in their claims)

I don't know if I missed it, but please measure how much Wh the garmin device needs at 3V constant voltage for maybe 1 hour. I think we can assume that most modern batteries have more or less the same capacity, or at least they used the best available battery brand for longer runtime. With the Batteriser the GPS device runs for 10 hours, they say in the video. Can't be compared to the 17 hours without the batteriser, because of the dimmed screen after some hours, but it is easy to calculate the (average) efficiency of the boost converter, if we know how much energy it needs. This would be a useful number, because then we could say, for any device which operates down to 1.1V or 1V, where the battery is nearly discharged, that it would last x% less time than with the batterieser. The number would be independant of the device, because with the constant voltage, most devices become constant current devices (when running). But might vary for lower/higher current.

389 mW average at 3v CV if you force the backlight to stay on.  it's generally right at 389 mW but you occasionally see spikes up and down, fairly frequently, but most of the time it's right at 389mW.  You'd almost have to do high frequency logging to get a good clean average.

It drops down to 247 mW once the backlight dims.

The batteries I used are Duracell AA LR6 MN1500

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on September 07, 2015, 06:13:12 pm

In the Garmin scenario, who would end up with a fully non-working GPS first, the one with or the one without batterisers?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 07, 2015, 06:13:33 pm

Quote from: NoItAint on September 07, 2015, 05:57:04 pm

When I buy a product, if there's one with UL trademark label, and one without, I always go for the UL Label.  I purely though it was about safety considerations.   If it instead means that a company can pass some contrived test to UL labs and it past the contrived test then this makes me rather sick to my stomach.

If true, it will totally change the way I buy gear.
 :(

You may want to check this post: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg747911/#msg747911 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg747911/#msg747911)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on September 07, 2015, 07:10:12 pm

Quote from: NoItAint on September 07, 2015, 05:57:04 pm

When I buy a product, if there's one with UL trademark label, and one without, I always go for the UL Label.  I purely though it was about safety
considerations.
...
If true, it will totally change the way I buy gear.

That was a good thing to do (in the USA) 10 years ago.

The problem is not only fake UL logos, and even certificates like Bateroo is forging.

The problem is also UL has no monopoly any more on certification in the USA.
A company with a serious product has 3 options:

1) get a certification at UL : cost is in the order of 50 000$, it can vary widely...
2) get an alternative certification (NRTL) : cost is in the order of 20 000$, for the same strong certificaton as UL
3) not sell in the USA if the quantities are too low to justify a NRTL certification

The option 2 will probably lose some customers, but is a valid and exact replacement for a UL certification.
The list of the marks approved by the US gov. are here :
https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html (https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html)

As you can see, UL still abuses it's (former) monopoly position.
I strongly encourage you to buy rather than only UL marked stuff, devices marked with any NRTL mark.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on September 07, 2015, 07:11:21 pm

Concerning Batterizer, I never saw a forged UL test result before, this document is obviously fake. Even asian crap manufacturers don't do fake documents like that, even if sometimes they fake the logo on the product. As Batteroo is an US company, they could get in deep legal trouble with UL.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on September 07, 2015, 07:25:44 pm

Quote from: f4eru on September 07, 2015, 07:11:21 pm

Concerning Batterizer, I never saw a forged UL test result before, this document is obviously fake. Even asian crap manufacturers don't do fake documents like that, even if sometimes they fake the logo on the product. As Batteroo is an US company, they could get in deep legal trouble with UL.....

Batteriser doesn't show an official document, they show a summary. I can't and will not believe that they would even risk to falsify that.
They know that everyone is looking with a magnifying glass on everything they post.
The fan channel may be run by youngsters that still have to understand how to run a PR campaign, but the Batteriser company and their VCs aren't naive starters. That's not how the world turns.

As a human being with compassion, I don't even blame the fan channel that hard. They are making every possible mistake. And they make it in public.
But I think (hope) that they do that because of young enthusiasm. Some of us (me :) )have made many mistakes in the early days because of young enthousiasm ;) . The internet wasn't around.
I hope that they learn from being slapped from both sides. If that would turn one of them into a great engineer, and one of them into a great PR guy that would be great.

I also bet that the great kid that got so many nasty comments will be alright. He's got the talent to become a great blogger and engineer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 07, 2015, 07:54:58 pm

Quote from: jancumps on September 07, 2015, 07:25:44 pm

Quote from: f4eru on September 07, 2015, 07:11:21 pm

Concerning Batterizer, I never saw a forged UL test result before, this document is obviously fake

Batteriser doesn't show an official document, they show a summary. I can't and will not believe that they would even risk to falsify that.

I also don't think they'd fake that, but why did they publish:
a) Such an unprofessional document
b) With a number that can't be found in the UL database.
c) In a time frame that's impossible - UL certification takes time and they only started this a week ago.

OK, point 'c' is heresay (what evidence do we have apart from things they've said?), but 'a' and 'b' don't make sense.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on September 07, 2015, 08:02:17 pm

not commenting on a. Only Batteriser can tell. Many companies would put in the comments that it is a summary. They choose not to do so.

b) a few members here posted that that particular number isn't searchable in the online database. It's a work number used between UL and companies. Not an official reference for external use.
Maybe they used it to impress us.

c) I don't know. Maybe different timeliness  for different services? They ordered a service that many of us didn't know UL provided. Maybe they have a different timeline for those not-safety-related reports?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on September 07, 2015, 09:50:07 pm

Quote from: jancumps on September 07, 2015, 06:13:12 pm

In the Garmin scenario, who would end up with a fully non-working GPS first, the one with or the one without batterisers?

The one with the Batteriser will fail first because (a) the unit is operating at full backlight with the batteriser whereas without, the unit deliberately reduces power on alkalines and (b) the inate inefficiencies of the Batteriser (or any) boost converter.

In fact, I'd say you'd be lucky to get 70% of the total running time with a Batteriser compared to straight cells bearing in mind the unit's efficiency savings that are being deliberately overridden by the Batteriser functionality.

389mW draw with the full backlight, which the Batteriser will force by falsifying battery state to the GPS, and 247mW when the Garmin is allowed to manage the battery itself after the first 7 hours or so.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: nixxon on September 07, 2015, 09:52:00 pm

Here is a link to the 2003 Zinniker article with the figures quoted 42 minutes into the Batteroo's "Batteriser - Full length Batteriser explanation video". Zinniker is a bit more specific than Batteroo regarding the applied testing conditions: http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)

I havent read all the pages of the Zinniker article, I must confess.

BTW: a "LR6" battery = an alkaline "AA" battery

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 07, 2015, 10:15:04 pm

How can you all be so naive?

That 5ky fella is clearly working for Big GPS, and Dave is on the pay of Big Battery and Big Monkey.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 07, 2015, 10:57:14 pm

Quote from: Delta on September 07, 2015, 10:15:04 pm

How can you all be so naive?

That 5ky fella is clearly working for Big GPS, and Dave is on the pay of Big Battery and Big Monkey.

Ha!  What's funny is that I actually live about 10 minutes away from Garmin world headquarters, and a couple of my former classmates work there as EEs.  (last I checked)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: robby1995 on September 08, 2015, 12:14:58 am

Quote from: Delta on September 07, 2015, 10:15:04 pm

How can you all be so naive?

That 5ky fella is clearly working for Big GPS, and Dave is on the pay of Big Battery and Big Monkey.

Tell me with some good arguments why you think so.

I testet some batteries at my self and there wasn't. Much left in them for the batterizer to use.
I don't know whats going on with the GPS but i trust 5ky more then batteroo

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 08, 2015, 12:17:25 am

Quote from: robby1995 on September 08, 2015, 12:14:58 am

Quote from: Delta on September 07, 2015, 10:15:04 pm

How can you all be so naive?

That 5ky fella is clearly working for Big GPS, and Dave is on the pay of Big Battery and Big Monkey.

Tell me with some good arguments why you think so.

I testet some batteries at my self and there wasn't. Much left in them for the batterizer to use.
I don't know whats going on with the GPS but i trust 5ky more then batteroo

I think he was being sarcastic  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: robby1995 on September 08, 2015, 12:27:20 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 08, 2015, 12:17:25 am

Quote from: robby1995 on September 08, 2015, 12:14:58 am

Quote from: Delta on September 07, 2015, 10:15:04 pm

How can you all be so naive?

That 5ky fella is clearly working for Big GPS, and Dave is on the pay of Big Battery and Big Monkey.

Tell me with some good arguments why you think so.

I testet some batteries at my self and there wasn't. Much left in them for the batterizer to use.
I don't know whats going on with the GPS but i trust 5ky more then batteroo

I think he was being sarcastic  ;D

Ups
My english isn't the best,haha
If it's. So i'm sorry.
But it would be very interesting whats going on in the heads of the batteroo guys..
But i think we will know soon

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on September 08, 2015, 12:28:36 am

Quote

Quote from: Delta on Today at 08:15:04 AM

Quote

How can you all be so naive?
        That 5ky fella is clearly working for Big GPS, and Dave is on the pay of Big Battery and Big Monkey.

    ...
I think he was being sarcastic  ;D

Ya, without ending the post with a proper facial expression, it can be confusing at the first look.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 08, 2015, 12:38:57 am

Quote from: onlooker on September 08, 2015, 12:28:36 am

Quote

Quote from: Delta on Today at 08:15:04 AM

Quote

How can you all be so naive?
        That 5ky fella is clearly working for Big GPS, and Dave is on the pay of Big Battery and Big Monkey.

    ...
I think he was being sarcastic  ;D

Ya, without ending the post with a proper facial expression, it can be confusing at the first look.

Aye sorry, should have put a smiley in, but I was hoping mention of "Big Monkey" would give it away! 😂

That said, with some of the shit that comes out of their online PR team, you could be forgiven for thinking I was serious...!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on September 08, 2015, 12:44:20 am

Now, it is clear. As to "Big Monkey", it could be interpreted as referencing big (toy) industry in general even if there cannot be logical relations.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on September 08, 2015, 01:26:42 am

Hey people, do an aspie test! I sometimes have problems with sarcasm, but this was very obvious!

If your English is somewhat bad, you might get confused in a lot of stuff. But please be concerned to improve it a bit more at least, this great effort will provide you many benefits and avoid dangerous mistakes. I was in a lot more shameful situations than this when my English was even worse than these days, and one of them involving undesired sex with a senior man and this isn't the worst one.

Quote from: 5ky on September 07, 2015, 10:57:14 pm

Quote from: Delta on September 07, 2015, 10:15:04 pm

How can you all be so naive?

That 5ky fella is clearly working for Big GPS, and Dave is on the pay of Big Battery and Big Monkey.

Ha!  What's funny is that I actually live about 10 minutes away from Garmin world headquarters, and a couple of my former classmates work there as EEs.  (last I checked)

Please make them a visit with your laptop, showing them the Garmin video and even this forum thread if they get more interested. I'm nearly sure they will laugh and get angry at same time! It will be a fun spectacle and these scammers will get what they deserve.

It will be very funny to see the Garmin response, no monkey butt would save Batteroo Inc.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: learningrc on September 08, 2015, 01:41:55 am

Quote from: Quarlo Klobrigney on September 07, 2015, 11:21:32 am

Did anyone comment on the typo in the UL "testing" screenshot? It says "the batter holder". Would UL release a document with a typo? You be the judge.

Yes, they would.  I've had it happen multiple times.  But as I explained a few pages back, that page is definitely not from UL.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 08, 2015, 01:46:43 am

Back to business, has anyone contacted UL?

I severely doubt that UL have had anything to do with this sham - that jpeg looked more like a piss poor school project - but even if they did do that test, then 1) Butteroo should not be plastering the UL logo around the place until the official report is released, and 2) Butteroo have tricked them into putting their name to a bullshit test.

Playing with bloggers is one thing, playing with UL (or BASEEFA, or TUV, or ATEX etc etc) is quite another!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 08, 2015, 03:16:31 am

Update!  Jay_Diddy_B wants to send me his boost converter from this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739648/#msg739648 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739648/#msg739648)

..to use in my test rig.  So, once that arrives, I'm going to pop it into the test rig between the battery holder (with brand new duracell AA's) and the GPS unit, and run the test in the exact same manner as my first test.  This should give us a very interesting stand-in for the real batteriser.   Thanks Jay!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on September 08, 2015, 03:33:36 am

Hi group,

I will ship two of the boards that I showed in this post:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739648/#msg739648 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739648/#msg739648)

These should be fairly representative of the boost converter in the Batteriser.

I will measure the efficiency at 100mA before I ship them.

5ky will repeat the test that he performed with the Garmin GPS.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: opa627bm on September 08, 2015, 04:52:37 am

Here are few things we need to do:
1. Download their batteriser videos and repost it on youtube with free comment and likes/dislikes.
2. make time lapse videos about how a GPS can run without batteriser and post video of it.
3. Contact UL about their claim.
4. They might did something in their test jig to forge such data (a 100 ohm resistors inside the GPS will do)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on September 08, 2015, 07:37:13 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 04, 2015, 11:52:43 am

A discussion has started on the website of the VC company backing Batteriser:
http://sktainnopartners.com/welcome-to-batteroo/ (http://sktainnopartners.com/welcome-to-batteroo/)

What exactly is a 'serial entrepreneur' ..? "Founded in 2012 by serial entrepreneur and technologist Dr. Farzan “Bob” Roohparvar" ...  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on September 08, 2015, 08:51:29 am

Quote

What exactly is a 'serial entrepreneur' ..?

It's a professional scammer who has already started the next cash cow when one gets discovered. Time is money.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 08, 2015, 09:01:43 am

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on September 08, 2015, 07:37:13 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 04, 2015, 11:52:43 am

A discussion has started on the website of the VC company backing Batteriser:
http://sktainnopartners.com/welcome-to-batteroo/ (http://sktainnopartners.com/welcome-to-batteroo/)

What exactly is a 'serial entrepreneur' ..? "Founded in 2012 by serial entrepreneur and technologist Dr. Farzan “Bob” Roohparvar" ...  :-//

It's the sort of guy that say "I've created dozen of company, and sold them all"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on September 08, 2015, 09:05:52 am

(UL) certification ----
I see this image pasted into the Batteroo website - and it has a procedure and results displayed, but no claim...  which is FAIR ENOUGH BECAUSE (UL) doesn't certify functionality, it certifies safety and risk standards (which might be questionable if testing fire risk and safety-critical applications using the device !)

I think this must be drawing to a close soon.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on September 08, 2015, 09:12:54 am

Quote from: Godzil on September 08, 2015, 09:01:43 am

What exactly is a 'serial entrepreneur' ..? "Founded in 2012 by serial entrepreneur and technologist Dr. Farzan “Bob” Roohparvar" ...  :-//

It's the sort of guy that say "I've created dozen of company, and sold them all"
[/quote]

It's the sort of guy people refer to as "He created dozen of companies, and bankrupted them all"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MikeW on September 08, 2015, 09:17:29 am

If that UL report is real I will eat a metaphorical hat.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on September 08, 2015, 09:35:49 am

FWIW - here's the battery discharge graph used in Batteroo's PATENT application
https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943 (https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 08, 2015, 09:47:01 am

Somehow, butteriser, conned another IGG campaign into advertising for them...

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/aftershokz-trekz-bone-conduction-headphones#/updates (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/aftershokz-trekz-bone-conduction-headphones#/updates)

 :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 08, 2015, 11:34:53 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 08, 2015, 09:47:01 am

Somehow, butteriser, conned another IGG campaign into advertising for them...

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/aftershokz-trekz-bone-conduction-headphones#/updates (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/aftershokz-trekz-bone-conduction-headphones#/updates)

 :-//

You can't con a con....

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/2015-new-model-waterproof-bone-conduction_60289914933.html?spm=a2700.7724838.35.1.xWJKqX (http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/2015-new-model-waterproof-bone-conduction_60289914933.html?spm=a2700.7724838.35.1.xWJKqX)

(https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1441136315/cbwpfyl7egxnx4bla4bm.jpg)

(http://g01.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1vxYZIFXXXXXpapXXq6xXFXXX7/2015-new-model-waterproof-bone-conduction-headphones.jpg)

OK, sorry, they are not exactly the same. Still, I'm not sold on "bone conduction" yet. Will have to try one out. How many backers have ever actually tried it? Off topic alert.... Back to Batteriser.

EDIT:  Apparently this company has been around for a while and sold these, so not quite a con afterall. The Chinese Alibaba site is just another option but impossible to compare to, not knowing the quality. However, I am surprised that a company like AfterShokz that DOES have a real product and client base and by all looks of it is a functioning company that is delivering a reasonably good product would associate themselves with Batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 08, 2015, 11:51:37 am

Quote from: Bud on September 08, 2015, 09:12:54 am

Quote from: Godzil on September 08, 2015, 09:01:43 am

It's the sort of guy that say "I've created dozen of company, and sold them all"

It's the sort of guy people refer to as "He created dozen of companies, and bankrupted them all"

Yeap also another clear vision of the facts

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 08, 2015, 12:12:47 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 08, 2015, 11:51:37 am

Quote from: Bud on September 08, 2015, 09:12:54 am

Quote from: Godzil on September 08, 2015, 09:01:43 am

It's the sort of guy that say "I've created dozen of company, and sold them all"

It's the sort of guy people refer to as "He created dozen of companies, and bankrupted them all"

Yeap also another clear vision of the facts

That also explains why so many patents. Perhaps the patents become something you can sell with the company that increases the value.

EDIT: Just had to comment on IndieGogo. That site has become a "shill" for Chinese manufacturers as well. Just like "astroturfing" is a play on words describing fake "grass-roots" movement, the IndieGogo campaigns which look an awful lot like Alibaba redesigns may be fake campaigns operated by Chinese factories who take advantage of cheap marketing through "crowd-funding" success story psychology to help push their latest wares. I wouldn't be surprised at all if at least some of this was going on.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: borud on September 08, 2015, 12:50:56 pm

Quote from: Delta on September 08, 2015, 01:46:43 am

Back to business, has anyone contacted UL?

I did.  I contacted their Market Surveillance Department.  I heard back from them today.   They have assigned an investigator.  Here is their response:

Quote

UL Product Incident Report (PIR) 2015FR-1418

Hello Mr. Borud.


Thank you for taking the time to contact the UL Market Surveillance Department to report your advertising concern.


Based on the information you submitted, a Product Incident Report (PIR) investigation has been opened and assigned to **removed** , UL Market Surveillance Report Investigator.

 

If you have additional information or questions, please contact the investigator at **removed** .

 

We would like to assure you that the information you provide will be thoroughly reviewed and appropriate action will be taken as warranted.  We will notify you upon completion of this investigation.

 

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.

 

Regards,

 

Ms. **removed**

Market Surveillance Analyst

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on September 08, 2015, 12:56:42 pm

They have picked up another 2400 odd backers in a day thats umm umm anyway a fair few without significant increase in takings, I hereby predict a lot if not all getting lost in the mail so any chance of a local pickup just to be on the safe side, after all we are saving the planet aren't we.

Based on their current numbers there are roughly 6100 people hanging out to debunk, some more qualified than others.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: borud on September 08, 2015, 12:56:54 pm

Quote from: jancumps on September 07, 2015, 07:25:44 pm

Batteriser doesn't show an official document, they show a summary. I can't and will not believe that they would even risk to falsify that.

Well, in the spirit of testing claims, since UL has been notified we might find out what's what.  If they have indeed hired UL to perform a test we will hopefully find out what kind of test has been performed and what the outcome was.  If they haven't hired UL to perform a test or have otherwise misrepresented the situation, we might be able to get some information on that as well.

I have no idea what the UL Market Surveillance Department will communicate back to me/us/the public, but at least this is one step towards clarification.

-Bjørn

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 08, 2015, 01:01:04 pm

Quote from: edy on September 08, 2015, 12:12:47 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 08, 2015, 11:51:37 am

Quote from: Bud on September 08, 2015, 09:12:54 am

Quote from: Godzil on September 08, 2015, 09:01:43 am

It's the sort of guy that say "I've created dozen of company, and sold them all"

It's the sort of guy people refer to as "He created dozen of companies, and bankrupted them all"

Yeap also another clear vision of the facts

That also explains why so many patents. Perhaps the patents become something you can sell with the company that increases the value.

Of course!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 08, 2015, 01:19:42 pm

Quote from: borud on September 08, 2015, 12:50:56 pm

Quote

If you have additional information or questions, please contact the investigator at <mail@address> or phone <number> (RTP, NC, USA).

Not sure if it is wise to publish exact contact details online with regard to spamming and abuse in other ways.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MikeW on September 08, 2015, 01:52:53 pm

Quote from: borud on September 08, 2015, 12:56:54 pm

Quote from: jancumps on September 07, 2015, 07:25:44 pm

Batteriser doesn't show an official document, they show a summary. I can't and will not believe that they would even risk to falsify that.

Well, in the spirit of testing claims, since UL has been notified we might find out what's what.  If they have indeed hired UL to perform a test we will hopefully find out what kind of test has been performed and what the outcome was.  If they haven't hired UL to perform a test or have otherwise misrepresented the situation, we might be able to get some information on that as well.

I have no idea what the UL Market Surveillance Department will communicate back to me/us/the public, but at least this is one step towards clarification.

-Bjørn

If it was a legitimate report then why would there be a need for any sort of investigation?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2015, 01:56:04 pm

Quote from: jancumps on September 07, 2015, 06:13:12 pm

In the Garmin scenario, who would end up with a fully non-working GPS first, the one with or the one without batterisers?

A true test of this would consist of two games of golf using the Garmin GPS.

After two games the battery indicator will show 50% remaining with ordinary Alkalines but 100% remaining with Batteriser. Batteriser is clearly the winner!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2015, 01:57:33 pm

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on September 08, 2015, 07:37:13 am

What exactly is a 'serial entrepreneur' ..?

Somebody who's started many different companies, none of which were successful enough to not have to close and start over with another company.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on September 08, 2015, 01:59:37 pm

Quote from: edy on September 08, 2015, 12:12:47 pm

EDIT: Just had to comment on IndieGogo. That site has become a "shill" for Chinese manufacturers as well. Just like "astroturfing" is a play on words describing fake "grass-roots" movement, the IndieGogo campaigns which look an awful lot like Alibaba redesigns may be fake campaigns operated by Chinese factories who take advantage of cheap marketing through "crowd-funding" success story psychology to help push their latest wares. I wouldn't be surprised at all if at least some of this was going on.

At least in that case they probably do have real product to sell... on the other hand, this story has been going on for over 3 months but is there anyone outside of the company and their "fan club" (and allegedly, UL) who has an actual Batteriser yet?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 08, 2015, 02:01:53 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 08, 2015, 03:16:31 am

Update!  Jay_Diddy_B wants to send me his boost converter from this thread: ... and run the test in the exact same manner as my first test... 

Can you also measure OFF-autonomy? Or OFF-consumption? Between the batteries and the converter.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2015, 02:03:20 pm

Quote from: MikeW on September 08, 2015, 01:52:53 pm

If it was a legitimate report then why would there be a need for any sort of investigation?

Yep. Why would somebody who actually works at UL need to start an investigation? The UL reference number is clearly displayed on Batteroo's image. Surely they can just look it up in their database and give a yes/no answer.   :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 08, 2015, 02:03:46 pm

Quote from: f4eru on September 08, 2015, 08:51:29 am

Quote

What exactly is a 'serial entrepreneur' ..?

It's a professional scammer who has already started the next cash cow when one gets discovered. Time is money.

A guy selling the company before the product warranty claims start getting in...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 08, 2015, 02:27:53 pm

What about a StepUp that have it's output following the battery voltage?

I mean that, let's says that our step-up is able to output
- 1.5V
- 1.3V
- 1.2V
- 1.1V
- 1.0V
- 0.9V

Allong with a small and power efficient uC (like an Attiny9) that read the (real) battery voltage and switch the step-up to a close output value for the stepup.
Ultimately the lowest available value should be configured with the device cutoff voltage, so that we are sure that the voltage never goes off that limit.

What this will do
- Prevent unusefull consumption on the battery by doing a too high conversion from the battery voltage to the output voltage
- But better, the battery meter on the device will work as before.

What is unknown:
- Does this will have any effect on the "tap into 800000000% of the battery remaining" I'm not sure, that it would help, and anyway if the device also use a step-up this is still absolutely unuseful.
- The total use time may also get worst by using this (but can't be as worse as a batter raiser)

Ho and by the way Batteroo, you are not allowed to take my idea for your next device if you will be able to make another one. This is an Open Source Idea, with the only limitation that any company with a name that start with "Batter" won't have any right of use it, and use of this idea need to follow this license of course.

So joke apart, Batteroo don't try to patent this idea, or you will have to pay me as my idea will precede your patent claim.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MikeW on September 08, 2015, 02:30:42 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 08, 2015, 02:03:20 pm

Quote from: MikeW on September 08, 2015, 01:52:53 pm

If it was a legitimate report then why would there be a need for any sort of investigation?

Yep. Why would somebody who actually works at UL need to start an investigation? The UL reference number is clearly displayed on Batteroo's image. Surely they can just look it up in their database and give a yes/no answer.   :-//

For me this shows they have definitely crossed the line from people who just don't really understand what they are selling, and don't want to admit they are wrong after so much work, (a flawed but kind of understandable human trait) to actual conscious fraud.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 08, 2015, 02:33:36 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 08, 2015, 03:16:31 am

Update!  Jay_Diddy_B wants to send me his boost converter from this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739648/#msg739648 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739648/#msg739648)

..to use in my test rig.  So, once that arrives, I'm going to pop it into the test rig between the battery holder (with brand new duracell AA's) and the GPS unit, and run the test in the exact same manner as my first test.  This should give us a very interesting stand-in for the real batteriser.   Thanks Jay!

don;t forget. He must send you two pieces. :D :D :D

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2015, 02:45:07 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 08, 2015, 02:27:53 pm

What about a StepUp that have it's output following the battery voltage?

I mean that, let's says that our step-up is able to output
- 1.5V
- 1.3V
- 1.2V
- 1.1V
- 1.0V
- 0.9V

It would need to be able to step-down as well.

But, yes, it might actually prolong battery life by optimizing the voltage being delivered to the device.

I can see it now: Batteriser II (now with more monkeys!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 08, 2015, 03:01:44 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 08, 2015, 02:03:20 pm

Quote from: MikeW on September 08, 2015, 01:52:53 pm

If it was a legitimate report then why would there be a need for any sort of investigation?

Yep. Why would somebody who actually works at UL need to start an investigation? The UL reference number is clearly displayed on Batteroo's image. Surely they can just look it up in their database and give a yes/no answer.   :-//

It's a different department with their own records system and they use a different tracking number to provide traceability.  It's done to make sure that UL "closes the loop" with the investigation, however long or short it may be.  It is bureaucracy, but it's a good thing in this instance.  A tracking number means the issue won't be just forgotten or lost. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on September 08, 2015, 03:05:16 pm

This Vaporware is now in the phase where it slowly disappears.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 08, 2015, 03:20:33 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 08, 2015, 02:45:07 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 08, 2015, 02:27:53 pm

What about a StepUp that have it's output following the battery voltage?

I mean that, let's says that our step-up is able to output
- 1.5V
- 1.3V
- 1.2V
- 1.1V
- 1.0V
- 0.9V

It would need to be able to step-down as well.

But, yes, it might actually prolong battery life by optimizing the voltage being delivered to the device.

I can see it now: Batteriser II (now with more monkeys!)

Yep Stepdown is also part of my idea, the idea is to choose the output voltage which is higher than the cutoff voltage and the closest to the current battery voltage to reduce the current load on the battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 08, 2015, 03:29:28 pm

Quote from: MikeW on September 08, 2015, 02:30:42 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 08, 2015, 02:03:20 pm

Quote from: MikeW on September 08, 2015, 01:52:53 pm

If it was a legitimate report then why would there be a need for any sort of investigation?

Yep. Why would somebody who actually works at UL need to start an investigation? The UL reference number is clearly displayed on Batteroo's image. Surely they can just look it up in their database and give a yes/no answer.   :-//

For me this shows they have definitely crossed the line from people who just don't really understand what they are selling, and don't want to admit they are wrong after so much work, (a flawed but kind of understandable human trait) to actual conscious fraud.

I would not read anything into the assignment of an investigator.  It merely means that they will look into the matter.  Nothing more.  Please don't interpret UL's response as taking sides.  It's not fair to them.   

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MikeW on September 08, 2015, 03:36:54 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 08, 2015, 03:29:28 pm

Quote from: MikeW on September 08, 2015, 02:30:42 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 08, 2015, 02:03:20 pm

Quote from: MikeW on September 08, 2015, 01:52:53 pm

If it was a legitimate report then why would there be a need for any sort of investigation?

Yep. Why would somebody who actually works at UL need to start an investigation? The UL reference number is clearly displayed on Batteroo's image. Surely they can just look it up in their database and give a yes/no answer.   :-//

For me this shows they have definitely crossed the line from people who just don't really understand what they are selling, and don't want to admit they are wrong after so much work, (a flawed but kind of understandable human trait) to actual conscious fraud.

I would not read anything into the assignment of an investigator.  It merely means that they will look into the matter.  Nothing more.  Please don't interpret UL's response as taking sides.  It's not fair to them.

I would be highly surprised if it doesn't turn out to be so.

People can search the UL database themselves online, an actual UL employee can't do the same thing in 5 seconds? Nah.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2015, 03:46:32 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 08, 2015, 03:01:44 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 08, 2015, 02:03:20 pm

The UL reference number is clearly displayed on Batteroo's image. Surely they can just look it up in their database and give a yes/no answer.   :-//

It's a different department with their own records system and they use a different tracking number to provide traceability.  It's done to make sure that UL "closes the loop" with the investigation, however long or short it may be.  It is bureaucracy, but it's a good thing in this instance.  A tracking number means the issue won't be just forgotten or lost.

Internal support ticket. Opened in one department, closed in another...?

Makes sense.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: naxxfish on September 08, 2015, 03:51:45 pm

There's one product this would sort of "work" for. Cheap incandescent bulb flashlights. The lamp would stay bright right up until the point at which the battery is totally dead - and then would completely die without any warning. Not really what you want if, for example, you're caving!

Totally pointless for anything else.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2015, 04:09:48 pm

Quote from: naxxfish on September 08, 2015, 03:51:45 pm

There's one product this would sort of "work" for. Cheap incandescent bulb flashlights. The lamp would stay bright right up until the point at which the battery is totally dead - and then would completely die without any warning. Not really what you want if, for example, you're caving!

Totally pointless for anything else.

If "flashlight brightness" is the only thing you're after then do yourself a favor and get yourself an LED flashlight, not a Batteriser. You'll get better regulation AND double the battery life due to LED efficiency and optimized booster circuit.

eg. This is the graph for a Fenix LD01 (as featured on EEVBLOG #78):

(http://www.lygte-info.dk/pic/Fenix/LD01-2010-SS/Fenix%20LD01%20high.png)

It's a thing of beauty.... note how brightness is perfectly flat above 1.0V then at exactly 1.0V it fades linearly down to 0.4V (ie. it doesn't suddenly leave you in the dark).

THAT, ladies and gentlemen,  is a boost converter for a flashlight. Batteriser can't even come close.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 08, 2015, 04:44:45 pm

Quote from: MikeW on September 08, 2015, 03:36:54 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 08, 2015, 03:29:28 pm

Quote from: MikeW on September 08, 2015, 02:30:42 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 08, 2015, 02:03:20 pm

Quote from: MikeW on September 08, 2015, 01:52:53 pm

If it was a legitimate report then why would there be a need for any sort of investigation?

Yep. Why would somebody who actually works at UL need to start an investigation? The UL reference number is clearly displayed on Batteroo's image. Surely they can just look it up in their database and give a yes/no answer.   :-//

For me this shows they have definitely crossed the line from people who just don't really understand what they are selling, and don't want to admit they are wrong after so much work, (a flawed but kind of understandable human trait) to actual conscious fraud.

I would not read anything into the assignment of an investigator.  It merely means that they will look into the matter.  Nothing more.  Please don't interpret UL's response as taking sides.  It's not fair to them.

I would be highly surprised if it doesn't turn out to be so.

People can search the UL database themselves online, an actual UL employee can't do the same thing in 5 seconds? Nah.

This will ultimately be reviewed by one of UL's attorneys. That takes time, even though the answer should seem obvious. None of us have knowledge as to exactly what Batteroo purchased from UL.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on September 08, 2015, 09:03:09 pm

about 14 days have passed in the campaign extension and only about 30.000$ extra..... maybe people are finding the debunk video´s or this forum + pages about debunking the batteriser.

Approx 2000$ pr day is not much, at this rate they will get maybe 60.000$ extra vs the 290.000 they had at end of 1 due date....

And i just love the response to 5ky´s GPS test.
"the test is not vaild because he does not have batteriser sleves to test with....."  :palm:
But People will put 2 and 2 together when they see 17+ hours vs 2.5, and going to read actual reviews (old even) saying runtime was 15+ hours...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 08, 2015, 09:15:28 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on September 08, 2015, 09:03:09 pm

about 14 days have passed in the campaign extension and only about 30.000$ extra..... maybe people are finding the debunk video´s or this forum + pages about debunking the batteriser.

Approx 2000$ pr day is not much, at this rate they will get maybe 60.000$ extra vs the 290.000 they had at end of 1 due date....

And i just love the response to 5ky´s GPS test.
"the test is not vaild because he does not have batteriser sleves to test with....."  :palm:
But People will put 2 and 2 together when they see 17+ hours vs 2.5, and going to read actual reviews (old even) saying runtime was 15+ hours...

It may help to look at other such campaigns that have gone into "extended funding" mode. I would like to think EEVBlog videos had something to do with it, but I have a feeling we are but a small blip. And we would have been an even smaller blip if Batteroo didn't actually pay any attention to Dave's videos and never bother to mount any rebuttals. I am not sure how many people would have found the debunking videos on their own without Batteroo actually calling attention to them in their replies.

In any case, look at the "Airing" (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/airing-the-first-hoseless-maskless-micro-cpap#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/airing-the-first-hoseless-maskless-micro-cpap#/story)). It is a complete sham, yet they managed to get 896% funded in their initial campaign period (forgot how many days it was). They set a $100,000 goal, so this means they sucked in $896,000. Since then, it has been a few months and they have slowly climbed up to $1,038,970 (that's another $142,970... or about 15%). If Batteriser makes $60k on top of their $300k it will be almost 20% more.

These campaigns with their paid hype media marketing only works a short time. After that, it is hard to make the "news" again. I don't think Batteroo would have made much more money even if nobody debunked them. And if the debunking videos actually worked, I would have expected at least a bunch of the existing Batteriser backers to have asked for a refund.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on September 08, 2015, 10:02:13 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on September 08, 2015, 09:03:09 pm

about 14 days have passed in the campaign extension and only about 30.000$ extra..... maybe people are finding the debunk video´s or this forum + pages about debunking the batteriser.

Approx 2000$ pr day is not much, at this rate they will get maybe 60.000$ extra vs the 290.000 they had at end of 1 due date....

And i just love the response to 5ky´s GPS test.
"the test is not vaild because he does not have batteriser sleves to test with....."  :palm:
But People will put 2 and 2 together when they see 17+ hours vs 2.5, and going to read actual reviews (old even) saying runtime was 15+ hours...

I have just put two my boost regulator is in the mail (Xpresspost) so that 5ky can repeat the GPS test with the batteries being boosted to 1.5V. Short of having a Batteriser, this is close a test as can be performed.

I measured the efficiency of my boost regulators at 90.5% when boosting 1.25V to 1.5V at 100mA.

When the testing is done we will have a really good idea on how the Garmin GPS would behave with a Batteriser.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GoneTomorrow on September 08, 2015, 11:13:05 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 03, 2015, 04:02:40 am

Quote from: GoneTomorrow on September 03, 2015, 03:56:31 am

It's impressive how quickly this became the second-most-replied-to thread on this forum

Nope, it's not even in the top 10.

I guess I should have said "sub-forum," as in the EEVBlog Specific forum. In other words, probably going to end up being your most-discussed video. I suppose you can thank them for stimulating forum discussion.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Quarlo Klobrigney on September 08, 2015, 11:35:45 pm

All this is because Dave has been bought by Big Battery  :-DD

I read that somewhere in a Youtube comment section. Don't throw rocks at me please..

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on September 09, 2015, 12:40:38 am

Quote from: Quarlo Klobrigney on September 08, 2015, 11:35:45 pm

All this is because Dave has been bought by Big Battery  :-DD

I read that somewhere in a Youtube comment section. Don't throw rocks at me please..

Too late...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=170187)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: andrew.perrong on September 09, 2015, 01:03:16 am

Very very interesting development.
Looks like Batteriser changed the text of their Facebook post, to say that UL only "verified" their results, and did not do any testing.

See the difference here:
https://www.diffchecker.com/0zygo1pn (https://www.diffchecker.com/0zygo1pn)

Seems to me like UL must have gotten a hold of them and requested the change.

So to me it seems like Batteriser called up UL and had them certify the test procedure as a proper one, and UL themselves did not actually do the testing. However, as always, there are ways to cheat on these tests.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on September 09, 2015, 01:33:42 am

This might be preemptive ass-covering, my reading of ULs licensing terms is that if you don't have a cert - which comes with a contract that must be regularly renewed to remain valid - they don't even want you mentioning them in relation to your product. Any advertising using the UL name also needs to be approved in advance, precisely to prevent this sort of confusion about what UL actually did.

I don't think that's going to be enough to save them if they're not being completely honest.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on September 09, 2015, 02:14:19 am

Quote from: Nerull on September 09, 2015, 01:33:42 am

This might be preemptive ass-covering

It doesn't matter what they cover their asses with, UL is going to kick them...   :box:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on September 09, 2015, 02:23:31 am

I would guess they do not have something substantial with UL. But they do want to maintain the UL story in some form for 2 more weeks before the IGG campaign is over.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 09, 2015, 05:38:27 am

It is pretty obvious to everybody by now, that Batteroo's gizmo cannot live up to their grossly inflated performance claims, but they are still grasping at every straw, to convince the public otherwise.
In my book, such intentional deception is akin to daylight robbery.

If they finally admitted that the DC booster can only be mildly beneficial in very specific cases, they would have an ethical business, but a lot less financial rewards. We will know soon whether the Rhooparvars have any moral fiber.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 05:52:55 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 09, 2015, 05:38:27 am

If they finally admitted that the DC booster can only be mildly beneficial in very specific cases, they would have an ethical business, but a lot less financial rewards. We will know soon whether the Rhooparvars have any moral fiber.

Admitting the truth would mean cancelling the IGG campaign. Not gonna happen.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on September 09, 2015, 08:21:04 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on September 08, 2015, 10:02:13 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on September 08, 2015, 09:03:09 pm

about 14 days have passed in the campaign extension and only about 30.000$ extra..... maybe people are finding the debunk video´s or this forum + pages about debunking the batteriser.

Approx 2000$ pr day is not much, at this rate they will get maybe 60.000$ extra vs the 290.000 they had at end of 1 due date....

And i just love the response to 5ky´s GPS test.
"the test is not vaild because he does not have batteriser sleves to test with....."  :palm:
But People will put 2 and 2 together when they see 17+ hours vs 2.5, and going to read actual reviews (old even) saying runtime was 15+ hours...

I have just put two my boost regulator is in the mail (Xpresspost) so that 5ky can repeat the GPS test with the batteries being boosted to 1.5V. Short of having a Batteriser, this is close a test as can be performed.

I measured the efficiency of my boost regulators at 90.5% when boosting 1.25V to 1.5V at 100mA.

When the testing is done we will have a really good idea on how the Garmin GPS would behave with a Batteriser.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

And it sure is good to have you guys willing to use your time to actually test the claims, i so hope this campaign gets closed but that not the way IGG does things.....

In other "news" new video out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwa_WQr5LnY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwa_WQr5LnY)
Well if you can call it "new", just the same crap, and that voltage spike theory is so busted by 5ky´s test

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 09, 2015, 08:28:26 am

Nothing new to this video.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on September 09, 2015, 08:29:06 am

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on September 09, 2015, 08:21:04 am

In other "news" new video out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwa_WQr5LnY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwa_WQr5LnY)
Well if you can call it "new", just the same crap, and that voltage spike theory is so busted by 5ky´s test

Can anybody find the full UL report? According to this video it should be on their page.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 09, 2015, 08:36:00 am

I love that when they mention UL, they say "To see the full report, Please Visit:" and where I expected to see a link to UL's website, I see "www.battseriser.com".   |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on September 09, 2015, 08:45:10 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 09, 2015, 08:36:00 am

I love that when they mention UL, they say "To see the full report, Please Visit:" and where I expected to see a link to UL's website, I see "www.battseriser.com".   |O

I'm getting a webpage not available from that link  :-//

Edit: Ahhh .... I should've checked the speling  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 09, 2015, 08:53:00 am

http://www.batteriser.com/ (http://www.batteriser.com/)

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: gore on September 09, 2015, 08:53:58 am

There is a spelling error in the link. Not a bad idea by the community to keep track of any changes in their website. I've been to their website quite a few times and things seem to change substantially. Including the original claims. What's this 80%? Wasn't it 800%? :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Psycho on September 09, 2015, 09:18:23 am

So the new video is a short version of the longer explanation? And they waste 30 seconds of about three minutes for an argument ad verecundiam? :D :D :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 09, 2015, 09:31:53 am

Quote from: gore on September 09, 2015, 08:53:58 am

There is a spelling error in the link. Not a bad idea by the community to keep track of any changes in their website. I've been to their website quite a few times and things seem to change substantially. Including the original claims. What's this 80%? Wasn't it 800%? :-//

It might as be 80000% it's all the same bullshit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 09, 2015, 09:39:21 am

Remember, according to the video: "This is truley a Global phenomenon!" [sic]

Seriously, invest some of that capital into a word processor with spell check, at least...

That sounds nit-picky. But I can't believe they're still harping on like a stuck record on the same nonsense; arguments based on known, proven, blatantly, obviously false premises. It's beyond a joke.

I've had no reply from Garmin as yet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 09, 2015, 10:01:32 am

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on September 09, 2015, 08:21:04 am

In other "news" new video out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwa_WQr5LnY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwa_WQr5LnY)
Well if you can call it "new", just the same crap, and that voltage spike theory is so busted by 5ky´s test

The video states:

Quote

Has successfully sold multiple companies

How is that an achievement? That isn't the same as:

 :-DD

Quote

Has sold multiple successful companies

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 10:25:25 am

I've been approached by the SMH/Age newspaper tech section (Australia) to do a story on the Batteriser Dislikes. Should I dare be involved with Fairfax media?
Straw poll....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 09, 2015, 10:29:10 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 10:25:25 am

I've been approached by the SMH/Age newspaper tech section (Australia) to do a story on the Batteriser Dislikes. Should I dare be involved with Fairfax media?
Straw poll....

Yeah man, make the facts public! Make some notes of all of their false claims, and all of the facts which refute those claims, and go hard!

Edit: just noticed that the focus is on the dislikes on your youtube channel. In that case, I still reckon go for it, but stay focussed on the issue of paying for fake downvotes. I guess there's no proving who paid for the downvotes, but you have proof that it happened.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 09, 2015, 10:31:51 am

No. You really can;t control what you say and what they will they write. And if they really deliver, there always can be retraction leaving you exposed.

Mass media is a lose-lose situation for an honest guy (in most cases).

Will it be only for the fact of disslike "industry"? If it has to do with batteriser, stay out. Until they ship at least.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on September 09, 2015, 10:32:11 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 10:25:25 am

I've been approached by the SMH/Age newspaper tech section (Australia) to do a story on the Batteriser Dislikes. Should I dare be involved with Fairfax media?
Straw poll....

i think i would stay out of it, at least until they are shipping them and they can be properly tested or they end up in endless delays and nothing ships

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 09, 2015, 10:34:54 am

At least, this new video is much more difficult to attack, apart from the fact that most device won't fail on the fist voltage spike, there is no the crap "you have to take the whole square for remaining capacity" or that poor snail that no one ask if he was happy to be there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 09, 2015, 10:36:31 am

@Godzil. Did you updated the git of BUTTERUSEr? :P :P :P

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BravoV on September 09, 2015, 10:36:49 am

Quote from: dexters_lab on September 09, 2015, 10:32:11 am

i think i would stay out of it, at least until they are shipping them and they can be properly tested or they end up in endless delays and nothing ships

+1  :-+  ... the proof of the pudding is in the eating ...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Quarlo Klobrigney on September 09, 2015, 10:45:59 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 10:25:25 am

Should I dare be involved with Fairfax media?
Straw poll....

Their website is at least not annoying like most are. Looks like a good paper, but then again you live there.
I say throw off the yoke of Big Battery and go for it.
What could they do to you? Drive up your site-YouTube hits?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 09, 2015, 10:56:38 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 10:25:25 am

I've been approached by the SMH/Age newspaper tech section (Australia) to do a story on the Batteriser Dislikes. Should I dare be involved with Fairfax media?
Straw poll....

Do it! (Was it Ben Grubb? He's a reasonable bloke.) They have quite a voice in Australia and worldwide. Who knows where this could lead you Dave. Look after your own interests. Fairfax are not likely to support (or even appear to support) the likes of Batteroo in the name of transparency and factual editorials. What Batteroo/Batteriser have claimed is nothing more than pure fantasy. Yes, the media like to hype things up from time to time, but they aren't going to put their name to something which can be so easily disproven.

Don't be surprised if it turns into one of these "One Aussie engineer going up against..." stories. It can only make you look good. You have the science, maths and data behind you... Batteroo don't.

EEVblog is more than just some hobby for Dave these days, it's his job and he relies on it. Good publicity will actually benefit him.

Quote from: firewalker on September 09, 2015, 10:31:51 am

No. You really can;t control what you say and what they will they write.

Absolutely you can! I've been involved in many interviews in my line of work and you'll find most reporters are mostly interested in facts. They don't want to be made to look like a fool with incorrect information either! The media aren't this huge devil everyone thinks it is. They can actually work for you if you're open, honest and you didn't fuck up.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 11:10:21 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 10:25:25 am

I've been approached by the SMH/Age newspaper tech section (Australia) to do a story on the Batteriser Dislikes. Should I dare be involved with Fairfax media?
Straw poll....

I say "no". I don't see what you could possibly gain from it.

( The "newspaper" looks like a sensationalist rag to me: http://www.theage.com.au/ (http://www.theage.com.au/)  )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 09, 2015, 11:11:56 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 11:10:21 am

I say "no". I don't see what you could possibly gain from it.

Are you kidding me?! You can't see it? One word... EXPOSURE... and it's unlikely to be negative exposure at that. Do you honestly think the biggest news story of the day is an "insignificant" YouTube channel buying likes? Umm... no.

For the purpose of full disclosure: I actually prefer news.com.au over SMH, but hey, you have to have both sides of "the argument".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 6581 on September 09, 2015, 11:15:09 am

 Vote for no. I think you've already addressed the subject well in your video and there's nothing more to add. It'd turn into something else about "B" and I think you've done wonderful job with your videos, in your own media / arena.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 09, 2015, 11:18:07 am

I vote yes!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 09, 2015, 11:19:06 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 09, 2015, 10:56:38 am

Absolutely you can! I've been involved in many interviews in my line of work and you'll find most reporters are mostly interested in facts. They don't want to be made to look like a fool with incorrect information either! The media aren't this huge devil everyone thinks it is. They can actually work for you if you're open, honest and you didn't fuck up.

No, media are not evil. But for technical issues they just don;t get it. If the article doesn't mention batteriser at all, it's ok.

Once I was asked from a local newspaper to comment on an economizer sold in my area, by door to door salesman. Just a single drop resistor an LED and an unconected capacitor. They didn't publish my comment because it was not flexible. I denied to give any chance for the product being true.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 09, 2015, 11:23:02 am

Quote from: firewalker on September 09, 2015, 11:19:06 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 09, 2015, 10:56:38 am

Absolutely you can! I've been involved in many interviews in my line of work and you'll find most reporters are mostly interested in facts. They don't want to be made to look like a fool with incorrect information either! The media aren't this huge devil everyone thinks it is. They can actually work for you if you're open, honest and you didn't fuck up.

No, media are not evil. But for technical issues they just don;t get it. If the article doesn't mention batteriser at all, it's ok.

Once I was asked from a local newspaper to comment on an economizer sold in my area, by door to door salesman. Just a single drop resistor an LED and an unconected capacitor. They didn't publish my comment because it was not flexible. I denied to give any chance for the product being true.

Alexander.

I think that's generalising a bit, don't you? You're talking about one small interview in your country. Over here, things are likely to be very different. The media are actually held to account and if they screw up, the eagles from their competitors are waiting to swoop. It's a bit like a court case, make the other guy look bad or discredit them even slightly and you might get off.

From where Dave is sitting, he can only benefit from this. Fairfax will already have read all our comments and posts with fact-checkers doing their homework. They'll walk into the interview armed with knowledge, just as Dave will.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 11:23:22 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 09, 2015, 11:11:56 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 11:10:21 am

I say "no". I don't see what you could possibly gain from it.

Are you kidding me?! You can't see it? One word... EXPOSURE... and it's unlikely to be negative exposure at that. Do you honestly think the biggest news story of the day is an "insignificant" YouTube channel buying likes? Umm... no.

I can tell you've never been interviewed by a newspaper.

(they usually have the story written long before the interview, the only reason you're there is to make it look like your words, not theirs).

Maybe this one is different, I dunno. Is it a Q/A interview or are they asking you to write an article for them?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 11:25:49 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 09, 2015, 11:23:02 am

Fairfax will already have read all our comments and posts with fact-checkers doing their homework. They'll walk into the interview armed with knowledge, just as Dave will.

LOL!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 09, 2015, 11:28:31 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 11:25:49 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 09, 2015, 11:23:02 am

Fairfax will already have read all our comments and posts with fact-checkers doing their homework. They'll walk into the interview armed with knowledge, just as Dave will.

LOL!

I assume by your "LOL" you think the reporter will have just plucked a story out of their ass, done no research at all and have decided to contact Dave because they're bored? Or maybe they just ran out of coffee?? They run a business like everyone else and as per my previous comments, they don't like to be proven wrong or made to look like fools.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 09, 2015, 11:35:58 am

Quote from: firewalker on September 09, 2015, 10:36:31 am

@Godzil. Did you updated the git of BUTTERUSEr? :P :P :P

Alexander.

That's not fair :o

I have some nasty changes to be done on the silkscreen (the latest kicad changes does not help on editing polygones, that would be nice if there where something about that!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 09, 2015, 11:38:28 am

Quote from: Godzil on September 09, 2015, 10:34:54 am

At least, this new video is much more difficult to attack, apart from the fact that most device won't fail on the fist voltage spike, there is no the crap "you have to take the whole square for remaining capacity" or that poor snail that no one ask if he was happy to be there.

Still quite a few errors.
00:44 Significant number of batteries thrown away only used 20% of their capacity. Debunked.
00:48 80% still trapped inside. Debunked.
01:39 "The first time one of these glitches goes below the minimum operating voltage of the device, the device stops functioning (showing a chart with a glitch at about 20% of the discharge curve" Debunked.
02:00 Shows a 2 hour battery life for Garmin Approach G3 on allegedly new Duracell? Debunked.
02:10 Claims that UL have replicated and verified their result. And that UL found that batteriser improved battery life in the Garmin by nearly 600% over new batteries. Debunked.
02:13 Claim that the full UL report is at batteriser.com. It is not. No one has ever seen an official full UL report on this. Debunked.
02:26 A battery recycling conference tested batteries from unknown/unstated sources: ("The sample batteries have been collected by Kassensturz during spring 2002 from 19 recycling boxes in supermarkets, consumer electronic shops and offices in the Zurich and Basle area."), and found that 30% of them had 84% capacity remaining. It is unknown if these batteries were recycled from commercial locations, where batteries are thrown away when still good, where people don't care about using the capacity in batteries, perhaps they have short term needs of batteries that won't give out on jobs and they recycle them afterwards or just throw away unused packs of batteries because the dates are expired and they've been stored for ages. People in office, industrial, commercial settings are unlikely to worry about using all the capacity in batteries before they chuck them and put in fresh ones. Those users aren't going to care about using batterisers either. Given that we don't know the background of these particular sourced batteries, it is not a reliable figure to place any weight on.

Also, here is the actual study in Switzerland which they took that data from: http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)
They had a sample of 636 cells. Not a very big "study" then. The same study found that 55% of the batteries (more than half) had less than 500mAh capacity remaining. 40% had zero capacity remaining. They found that the overall average capacity remaining was 33% per cell. And that from a sample pool which is most likely to throw away perfectly good batteries. Much more so than a household. The reason being not because the devices can't use most or all of the batteries capacity or because the user needs a device to enable such, but because of the actions and attitudes of the users.
The study came to several conclusions and recommendations, none of which was to put a sleeve on batteries to make them seem like they have 100% of charge until they die.

(http://i.imgur.com/CLyIQGo.jpg)

Glaring omissions from the video:
-Most devices run down to 1.0V, or 0.9V per cell.
-Most devices therefore use at least 80-90% of a cells available energy.
-The last 10-20% is harder to extract because of lower cell voltage and higher ESR.
-The batteriser must be extremely current limited, making it impossible to draw a useful current, especially as the cell gets low in energy.
-The batteriser can be no more than 70-80% efficient on average in a best case scenario, offsetting any potential gain made by extracting all of the capacity in cells, burning it off as waste heat.
-They claim it saves money and the environment. Both are false. It costs money, albeit not a lot. It doesn't save on battery consumption. It is far more harmful to the environment to provide a placebo device which encourages people to continue using single-shot Alkaline cells rather than moving to LSD NiMH rechargeable cells which can be reused over 2000 times.
-If users were to switch to LSD NiMH cells, they would have the advantages of higher current capability, no vampire current loss, no device inefficiencies, longer life between battery changes, over 2000 re-uses per cell, better performance in high and low temperature environments, flatter discharge curves...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 09, 2015, 11:42:10 am

I don't think they are interested for the product. Only for the fact that a company (allegedly) "attacked" a video blogger with dislikes for busting their product.

Dave did an excellent video for the fact. They can use it and write a story.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on September 09, 2015, 11:49:17 am

Quote from: Godzil on September 09, 2015, 11:35:58 am

Quote from: firewalker on September 09, 2015, 10:36:31 am

@Godzil. Did you updated the git of BUTTERUSEr? :P :P :P

Alexander.

That's not fair :o

I have some nasty changes to be done on the silkscreen (the latest kicad changes does not help on editing polygones, that would be nice if there where something about that!)

Did you write an email about the issue to kicad-developers? If not, please do it.

There's currently some interest about that kind of geometry stuff due to DXF importing and such, such as B-Splines (already supported by gEDA and Altium).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 11:54:21 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 09, 2015, 11:28:31 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 11:25:49 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 09, 2015, 11:23:02 am

Fairfax will already have read all our comments and posts with fact-checkers doing their homework. They'll walk into the interview armed with knowledge, just as Dave will.

LOL!

I assume by your "LOL" you think the reporter will have just plucked a story out of their ass, done no research at all and have decided to contact Dave because they're bored?

I'm sure they saw Dave's video. How much "homework" or "fact checking" they did isn't clear.

Question: How much homework or fact-checking did all those other sites do before they published their Batteriser article? Any at all?

Quote from: Halcyon on September 09, 2015, 11:28:31 am

they don't like to be proven wrong or made to look like fools.

All the web sites that ran the Batteriser story have hundreds of "This editor is an idiot!!!" and "Check your facts before publishing crap like this!" comments.

Do they look like they care? Has a single article been retracted or a follow-up posted?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 09, 2015, 11:55:25 am

Quote from: samgab on September 09, 2015, 11:38:28 am

Quote from: Godzil on September 09, 2015, 10:34:54 am

At least, this new video is much more difficult to attack, apart from the fact that most device won't fail on the fist voltage spike, there is no the crap "you have to take the whole square for remaining capacity" or that poor snail that no one ask if he was happy to be there.

Still quite a few errors.
00:44 Significant number of batteries thrown away only used 20% of their capacity. Debunked.
00:48 80% still trapped inside. Debunked.

The keyword is "Significant number". For me even 5 over 100 battery trashed with 20% only used is a significant number. That term is not a statistical term and really mean nothing.

(and both are linked, if a battery is used only at 20%, 80% is remaining inside that a fact)

Quote from: samgab on September 09, 2015, 11:38:28 am

01:39 "The first time one of these glitches goes below the minimum operating voltage of the device, the device stops functioning (showing a chart with a glitch at about 20% of the discharge curve" Debunked.

But that's also true that some badly designs product behave like that. *SOME*

Quote from: samgab on September 09, 2015, 11:38:28 am

02:00 Shows a 2 hour battery life for Garmin Approach G3 on allegedly new Duracell? Debunked.

As always, they are playing with words, their graph is stopping when the device show a "battery warning" or "shutdown". As with their setup, the battery warning is displayed after 2hr...
The only "debunked" thing there is that their setup and play with word, is wrong and misleading, at best.

Quote from: samgab on September 09, 2015, 11:38:28 am

02:10 Claims that UL have replicated and verified their result. And that UL found that batteriser improved battery life in the Garmin by nearly 600% over new batteries. Debunked.
02:13 Claim that the full UL report is at batteriser.com. It is not. No one has ever seen an official full UL report on this. Debunked.

The UL "report" is not a clear thing for now, there is nothing debunked about that. What they show is not a real report for sure, but there is a real high change that the used some services from UL.


For the study they use, we can do what we want with number, and especially make them tell what you want. It's just marketing in the batteroo case, it is true that a certain number of battery is trashed when they are not fully used, and that some device are badly designs and does not use the full battery capacity.

In this video they carefully chose the word they use, they don't give any real information any real number making this video much more difficult to "debunk" than the other one, because this one is mainly only marketing stuff, andcorrectly worded (apart from some typos) to be enoughly vague so that it's hard to counter attack it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 11:56:09 am

Quote from: firewalker on September 09, 2015, 11:42:10 am

I don't think they are interested for the product. Only for the fact that a company (allegedly) "attacked" a video blogger with dislikes for busting their product.

People attacking each other on the Internet is a juicy story.

Be careful that they don't make it look like Dave attacked them first.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 12:06:21 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 09, 2015, 11:55:25 am

In this video they carefully chose the word they use, they don't give any real information any real number making this video much more difficult to "debunk" than the other one, because this one is mainly only marketing stuff, andcorrectly worded (apart from some typos) to be enoughly vague so that it's hard to counter attack it.

No it isn't.

It is NOT true that devices only use 20% of the power in batteries. The batteries in the "20%" report weren't thrown away because people thought they were empty. Devices do not shut down because of current spikes.

It is NOT true that people can expect Batteriser to extend their battery life (see previous point).

These basic premises are wrong.

Possible follow up to the current spike argument: Build a device to mimic the effect of current spikes (ie. short voltage drops) and feed it in to the GPS. Vary the pulse heights, pulse widths and baseline voltages. Find out what the actual limits of the device are. How big of a spike would it take to shut it down?

(PS: Don't you think a device crash is more likely than a nice clean shutdown?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 09, 2015, 12:07:52 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 10:25:25 am

I've been approached by the SMH/Age newspaper tech section (Australia) to do a story on the Batteriser Dislikes. Should I dare be involved with Fairfax media?
Straw poll....

You'll reach an entirely different kind of public, for a large part non-EE, which can certainly be a good thing. Some of the readers may eventually even visit your website out of true interest. You'll have to gear down for expected technical background though. I think you should not allow yourself to mention Batteriser, neither the product claims, nor suspect for arranging the dislikes. Try to make clear agreements on the article scope, maybe see if you can review it before publication.

I am not familiar with SMH/Age newspaper or Fairfax media, so I can't really say do or don't.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on September 09, 2015, 12:26:52 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 10:25:25 am

I've been approached by the SMH/Age newspaper tech section (Australia) to do a story on the Batteriser Dislikes. Should I dare be involved with Fairfax media?
Straw poll....

Dave:

Since you've already gone 'public' regarding this issue in your Dislikes Video; I don't see why you shouldn't do an interview/article for the press.  They'll probably run with the story regardless, so you might as well go 'on the record' in a press statement or interview too.

The story they're looking at here, presumably, is the manipulation of social media by individuals or corporate entities. Such as buying likes or dislikes on YouTube. Go for it.  :)

Edit: Minor grammatical niggle  ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 12:29:34 pm

Oh dear, Batteriser aren't content with flogging their own stuff, but are now flogging others:
They sent a backer email update plugging this campaign:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/aftershokz-trekz-bone-conduction-headphones#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/aftershokz-trekz-bone-conduction-headphones#/story)

Quote

Because our team dug the Trekz Titanium™ headphones so much, we coaxed the good folks at AfterShokz into putting together a special package just for our community. How cool is that?! Here’s the deal: all Batteriser backers can now access AfterShokz’s ShokzStar Special Edition Perk for only $99 (even though it’s listed at $129!). That means you get (1) Trekz Titanium™, (1) activity belt and (1) limited edition t-shirt for nearly 30% less than everyone else!

Tacky.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 09, 2015, 12:32:30 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 10:25:25 am

... Should I dare be involved with Fairfax media?
Straw poll....

I was twice in the media, and 2 times, I didn't recognise any of the sentences they wrote, and didn't understand what 'the guy' was telling.
Wouldn't do it again without full revision rights.
It's my story, they have the right to type it, not to change it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 09, 2015, 12:35:03 pm

Time to expose the Batteroo Indian shills for posterity:

'We tested the Batteriser sleeve in our lab and we confirmed that the Batteriser taps into the 80 percent of energy that is usually thrown away.' Dr Kiumars Parvin

'How to make your batteries last 8x longer' video
Lakshmi Narasimhan

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 12:35:42 pm

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on September 09, 2015, 12:26:52 pm

The story they're looking at here, presumably, is the manipulation of social media by individuals or corporate entities. Such as buying likes or dislikes on YouTube. Go for it.  :)

Actually, it seems to be an article on the Batteriser debunking in general:

Quote

We'd like to run a piece on your take-down of the Batterizer, and the company's subsequent response (rumours it bought dislikes for your page, quietly changed its claims etc).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 09, 2015, 12:39:57 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 11:54:21 am

All the web sites that ran the Batteriser story have hundreds of "This editor is an idiot!!!" and "Check your facts before publishing crap like this!" comments.

Do they look like they care? Has a single article been retracted or a follow-up posted?

Generally they don't care, but I remember one of the seen-on-pages on the batteriser-page retracted the article.
The title still appears when you search on that site, but clicking on it generates an error.
Wasn't it engineering.com? Sorry, too lazy to check (again)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on September 09, 2015, 12:42:44 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 12:29:34 pm

Oh dear, Batteriser aren't content with flogging their own stuff, but are now flogging others:
They sent a backer email update plugging this campaign:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/aftershokz-trekz-bone-conduction-headphones#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/aftershokz-trekz-bone-conduction-headphones#/story)

Quote

Because our team dug the Trekz Titanium™ headphones so much, we coaxed the good folks at AfterShokz into putting together a special package just for our community. How cool is that?! Here’s the deal: all Batteriser backers can now access AfterShokz’s ShokzStar Special Edition Perk for only $99 (even though it’s listed at $129!). That means you get (1) Trekz Titanium™, (1) activity belt and (1) limited edition t-shirt for nearly 30% less than everyone else!

Tacky.

they "exchanged" support, those 'cheap shitty chinese already manufactured and ready to buy on aliexpress headphones' IGG campain posted same BS about Buttsexizer on their site.

Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 12:35:42 pm

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on September 09, 2015, 12:26:52 pm

The story they're looking at here, presumably, is the manipulation of social media by individuals or corporate entities. Such as buying likes or dislikes on YouTube. Go for it.  :)

Actually, it seems to be an article on the Batteriser debunking in general:

Quote

We'd like to run a piece on your take-down of the Batterizer, and the company's subsequent response (rumours it bought dislikes for your page, quietly changed its claims etc).

Nice. Its AU outfit so its bloody unlikely they would throw fellow Austrian under the bus. As long as they let you authorize it its cool.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 09, 2015, 12:44:29 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 11:56:09 am

...Be careful that they don't make it look like Dave attacked them first.

As they did from the start. Payed by the battery industry. EE dropout with an arts degree.
New to come: Payed himself for the dislikes, look here, his own video where he admits it (link to the video)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on September 09, 2015, 12:47:00 pm

Quote from: Rasz on September 09, 2015, 12:42:44 pm

Nice. Its AU outfit so its bloody unlikely they would throw fellow Austrian under the bus. As long as they let you authorize it its cool.

in my experience the press would throw their own mothers under a bus for a good story

they should be considered untrustworthy at all times

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 09, 2015, 12:49:02 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 12:35:42 pm

Actually, it seems to be an article on the Batteriser debunking in general:

Quote

We'd like to run a piece on your take-down of the Batterizer, and the company's subsequent response (rumours it bought dislikes for your page, quietly changed its claims etc).

What's the % of the audience that understands Ohm's law?
I hope it doesn't become another believer-nonbeliever thing in the end.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 09, 2015, 01:07:44 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 12:35:42 pm

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on September 09, 2015, 12:26:52 pm

The story they're looking at here, presumably, is the manipulation of social media by individuals or corporate entities. Such as buying likes or dislikes on YouTube. Go for it.  :)

Actually, it seems to be an article on the Batteriser debunking in general:

Quote

We'd like to run a piece on your take-down of the Batterizer, and the company's subsequent response (rumours it bought dislikes for your page, quietly changed its claims etc).

DAVE, be careful!  :scared:   Call me paranoid, but this may be a set up. How did they get your name? Why do they care about this topic now? Could there be any legal ramifications once you are in print that Batteroo and their lawyers can use to go after you for affecting their company business? Remember, you STILL have no Batteriser in your hand, and they want you to write about the Batteriser. They could use that $300,000 in IndieGogo money to sue you into the ground, just to make you rack up your legal fees. Even if you win, the financial costs can bury you.

As much as it would be AWESOME to see you in a major news publication, you need to ask what reasons you have for doing it, what back up you have for saying things in print (maybe some LEGAL advice is in order), and what risks you will face.

Plus, the campaign is still in the middle...... there is no product. I can see a desperate Batteroo trying to get out of their obligations and using a ScapeGoat like Dave to blame for why their product is delayed, or why they have lost some funding, or other such nonsense.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on September 09, 2015, 01:22:01 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 12:35:42 pm

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on September 09, 2015, 12:26:52 pm

The story they're looking at here, presumably, is the manipulation of social media by individuals or corporate entities. Such as buying likes or dislikes on YouTube. Go for it.  :)

Actually, it seems to be an article on the Batteriser debunking in general:

Quote

We'd like to run a piece on your take-down of the Batterizer, and the company's subsequent response (rumours it bought dislikes for your page, quietly changed its claims etc).

Hmmm. In that case I'd be a lot more wary. This could end up being a mountain out of a molehill situation  ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 09, 2015, 01:36:05 pm

Please Fungus, calm down, I'll explain my point of view:

Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 12:06:21 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 09, 2015, 11:55:25 am

In this video they carefully chose the word they use, they don't give any real information any real number making this video much more difficult to "debunk" than the other one, because this one is mainly only marketing stuff, and correctly worded (apart from some typos) to be enoughly vague so that it's hard to counter attack it.

No it isn't.

Yes it is, the first thing they say is at 00:37 "Significant number of dead battery you throw away" what is a "significant number"? For some situation, one over 10000 is significant for other, 99/100 is significant. The wording they use here is absolutely ambiguous.

Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 12:06:21 pm

It is NOT true that devices only use 20% of the power in batteries. The batteries in the "20%" report weren't thrown away because people thought they were empty. Devices do not shut down because of current spikes.

There are unfortunately some device that badly work like this, but *SOME* not all.

Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 12:06:21 pm

It is NOT true that people can expect Batteriser to extend their battery life (see previous point).

These basic premises are wrong.

I never say anything about that, because I completely agree with the fact that the basic premises are wrong. (apart from the fact that most of the people that backed this product though that they would extent their battery life with it)

I'm just saying that this specific video has been better made than all the other, there are some sort of fact, be told in a really ambiguous way ("is wrong and at least misleading")

Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 12:06:21 pm

Possible follow up to the current spike argument: Build a device to mimic the effect of current spikes (ie. short voltage drops) and feed it in to the GPS. Vary the pulse heights, pulse widths and baseline voltages. Find out what the actual limits of the device are. How big of a spike would it take to shut it down?

(PS: Don't you think a device crash is more likely than a nice clean shutdown?)

Of course this is not something we want, and it's something I already raised in this topic before, what is the device need to store things before the battery die, and use the battery voltage/remaining capacity to trigger this?

So as I say I'm absolutely not trying to say the batteriser is a good (or bad product), but just saying that the latest video has been carefully made to be hard to attack on all the point we raised earlier, and that they would have plenty of way to say that what they say is somewhat true in some situations. This video is not giving fact and trying to prove them, it just give some vague facts.

(And by the way, I've been paid by the Big Probe Monkey Corporation)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 09, 2015, 01:39:24 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 09, 2015, 01:36:05 pm

...There are unfortunately some device that badly work like this, but *SOME* not all.

It would be a false assumption that these badly engineered 'some' devices will work better with batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 09, 2015, 01:42:19 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on September 09, 2015, 01:39:24 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 09, 2015, 01:36:05 pm

...There are unfortunately some device that badly work like this, but *SOME* not all.

The false assumption is that these badly engineered 'some' devices will work better with batteriser.

They would at some point, but maybe at the price of halving the battery life
(and anyway, a batteriser would be better with what I proposed earlier in this topic, the current version is just useless, and even my proposal, is I think it's still useless)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on September 09, 2015, 01:49:21 pm

Quote from: edy on September 09, 2015, 01:07:44 pm

How did they get your name?

Seriously? Do you think only us here on the forums know his name? ::)

http://www.eevblog.com/about/ (http://www.eevblog.com/about/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 09, 2015, 01:55:27 pm

Quote from: amyk on September 09, 2015, 01:49:21 pm

Quote from: edy on September 09, 2015, 01:07:44 pm

How did they get your name?

Seriously? Do you think only us here on the forums know his name? ::)

http://www.eevblog.com/about/ (http://www.eevblog.com/about/)

I know Dave is quite famous. My point is, how many times does Dave get approached by general-interest newspapers to talk about his Rants and Raves about stuff he's done many videos about in the past. Why now? Why this? I'm still curious how this newspaper found out about this entire Batteriser debate. If they say "oh we've been watching Dave for years and finally decided this was a good story"... Or did they get "fed" the name and by who? Did someone point the newspaper in this direction? Just wondering...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 09, 2015, 02:36:55 pm

Do the newspaper thing Dave.  Don't let the all-media-are-out-to-get-us posse put you off. 😃

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 02:44:21 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 09, 2015, 01:36:05 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 12:06:21 pm

It is NOT true that people can expect Batteriser to extend their battery life (see previous point).

These basic premises are wrong.

I never say anything about that, because I completely agree with the fact that the basic premises are wrong. (apart from the fact that most of the people that backed this product though that they would extent their battery life with it)

I'm just saying that this specific video has been better made than all the other, there are some sort of fact, be told in a really ambiguous way ("is wrong and at least misleading")

If people aren't convinced by anti-batteriser videos yet then they won't be convinced by any new tech-heavy ones.

The correct way to respond to this one is with a 3-minute, soundbite-heavy video.

Storyboard
"Only 20% of battery used used? Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope...."  (video of somebody going from device to device to device with a multimeter, nb. no explanation given, just say "nope, nope, nope...")

"GPS only lasts 2 hours? Nope. Current spikes shutting it down? Nope." (video of 5ky's GPS machine still ticking after 16.5 hours, with graph of time and current spikes)

"Calling us 'amateur teenage bloggers' with no real experience? LOL!" (video of Batteroo's engineer's workbench with price labels above their $60 eBay power supply, unused soldering irons, $70 Hantek current logger, etc. Cut to obviously non-teenage Dave, Dave's hardware with price labels above it, 5ky's hardware with price labels above it, etc. "Who's the amateurs here?")

"Measuring batteries open circuit, pretending they're still good then sticking them up a monkey's butt? Definitely!" (video of Batteroo measuring batteries, cut to video of Dave measuring dead batteries at 1.25V open circuit, his voltage recover curves, sticking them in his monkey and watching it run even when they were at 0.5V under load)

"Batteroo constantly changing their story to match facts as they are revealed to them? Priceless!" (montage of snapshots of all the edits and story-reversals we've got archived from their online comments)

"Threatening a 13-year-old blogger, attacking people in comments, paying Vietnamese to dislike youtube videos? Truly pathetic..." (montage of screenshots showing all that stuff)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 02:44:45 pm

Quote from: Delta on September 09, 2015, 02:36:55 pm

Do the newspaper thing Dave.  Don't let the all-media-are-out-to-get-us posse put you off. 😃

Flip a coin.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on September 09, 2015, 02:45:51 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 10:25:25 am

Straw poll....

Everyone I know who has been quoted in the media has been misquoted.

You can pick what you say extremely carefully but they can still make it seem like you said the opposite. It doesn't even have to be malicious, but you know as they say, those who can't do, write about it for a newspaper.

I vote don't bother. I guess it could get you some extra views though...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on September 09, 2015, 02:51:46 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 08, 2015, 09:47:01 am

Somehow, butteriser, conned another IGG campaign into advertising for them...

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/aftershokz-trekz-bone-conduction-headphones#/updates (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/aftershokz-trekz-bone-conduction-headphones#/updates)

 :-//

Well that's quite disappointing. I have some older Aftershokz bluetooth headphones. They work well. Definitely not some alibaba knockoff or scam.

Title: Bone Fone
Post by: drussell on September 09, 2015, 03:13:18 pm

That bone conduction headphone idea has been around since the late 1970s...  They were a bit of a fad for a time and they sold quite a few but most people don't remember them now.  Wearable tech had it's first fad phase, now someone has revived the Bone Fone idea of late....  but it fizzled in the early 1980s and it probably won't last now either.  (But someone will probably make a bit of a tidy profit from selling the latest pet rock, though, etc...  What's old is new again once most people forget that it was there before!  :) )  Just google Bone Fone and you should be able to find all the information you need from the late '70s into the '80s... Popular XX magazine articles, etc. etc.

Dave, as for doing the article about the Batterizer brouhaha, personally I think I would do it.  The mass media ran with the original batterizer story (as usual) without a second thought or much critical thinking.  It would be very nice for them to do a bit of an informed article on it instead and I'm sure you could provide some solid technical advice.

Yes, you should be a bit wary, I suppose, but someone needs to help them and provide the technical information that a typical reporter (even most "tech reporters") will be sorely lacking.  Your skills fit the bill...

Hmm... Speaking of "Pet Rocks", I don't think I've seen anyone selling those for a while....
Perhaps we should get together and start an IndieGoGo campaign!  :scared:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on September 09, 2015, 04:23:02 pm

I Googled the term fraudulent youtube dislikes earlier on today and it revealed a couple of things in my search bearing in mind that your search may display a different result, Daves current EEVBlab Dislikes video was forth on the list and above that was an article in the guardian newspaper about fake view numbers on some youtube channels whereby youtube themselves declared that they will be more vigilant in regards to spammers, dated 5th February 2014.

Also I think that any relevant information in regards to the dislikes issue should be collated and posted on that particular EEVBlab thread so that if the media does follow it up and in turn the general public then they can get the exact information from there, if they then want to get an idea of some of the other outrageous tactics used then a link back here should do the trick.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on September 09, 2015, 04:48:32 pm

did anyone notice they added a new perk when they mentioned the Aftershokz promo?

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x/contributions/new/#/contribute?perk_amt=35&perk_id=3121246 (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x/contributions/new/#/contribute?perk_amt=35&perk_id=3121246)

basically the same as the 8xAA + 8xAAA perk for $40 but with the price reduced by $5 to $35.00

as of today:
Total Sales   $273,585.00
Total Batterisers   109,096
Average Batteriser Selling Price   $2.508

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 09, 2015, 05:29:42 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on September 09, 2015, 12:32:30 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 10:25:25 am

... Should I dare be involved with Fairfax media?
Straw poll....

I was twice in the media, and 2 times, I didn't recognise any of the sentences they wrote, and didn't understand what 'the guy' was telling.
Wouldn't do it again without full revision rights.
It's my story, they have the right to type it, not to change it.

I wrote some articles for a big German computer magazine some time ago (Java 3D programming etc.) and recently a Bitcoin article for the 2600 magazine. It was always published nearly without changes, but I guess a technical or hacker magazine is different than for example a general newspaper.

Who is the audience? Dave, maybe give them an interesting story with all the personal backgrounds, like the threatening from Batteriser to the Youtube commenter kid, or this long thread and the how much effort others spent to debunk it, too, and how all this probably led to buying the votes (but I guess it can't be proved that they did it). But write it in a way that non-technical people understand it. Just don't forget to mention your EEVblog multiple times ("watch EEVblog x for more information about this detail, EEVblog y for basics about this, ...") for everyone who wants to know the technical details.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on September 09, 2015, 05:50:17 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 09, 2015, 04:23:02 pm

I Googled the term fraudulent youtube dislikes earlier on today and it revealed a couple of things in my search bearing in mind that your search may display a different result, Daves current EEVBlab Dislikes video was forth on the list and above that was an article in the guardian newspaper about fake view numbers on some youtube channels whereby youtube themselves declared that they will be more vigilant in regards to spammers, dated 5th February 2014.

Also I think that any relevant information in regards to the dislikes issue should be collated and posted on that particular EEVBlab thread so that if the media does follow it up and in turn the general public then they can get the exact information from there, if they then want to get an idea of some of the other outrageous tactics used then a link back here should do the trick.

This:  http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/feb/05/youtube-fake-views-counts-google (http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/feb/05/youtube-fake-views-counts-google)  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 09, 2015, 05:55:28 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on September 09, 2015, 05:29:42 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on September 09, 2015, 12:32:30 pm

I was twice in the media, and 2 times, I didn't recognise any of the sentences they wrote, and didn't understand what 'the guy' was telling.
Wouldn't do it again without full revision rights.
It's my story, they have the right to type it, not to change it.

I wrote some articles for a big German computer magazine some time ago ... It was always published nearly without changes, but I guess a technical or hacker magazine is different than for example a general newspaper...

Ok, you wrote ready-to-consume articles, that's completely different. I did that for some low-number magasines too, they also nearly took it over entirely.

I was talking about an interview-style appearance in the media, Q and A, where they mix it themselves with other data and video parts, and do the editing afterwards.
Be sure their story is ready, their what-does-our-audience-want-to-hear study is done, let's hope he fits into that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: NoItAint on September 09, 2015, 05:59:07 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 10:25:25 am

I've been approached by the SMH/Age newspaper tech section (Australia) to do a story on the Batteriser Dislikes. Should I dare be involved with Fairfax media?
Straw poll....

I'd like to see this.  Nothing wrong with seeing some science and reasoning in the press.  You've got no agenda, just facts.  It'll help make the public more aware that science works!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on September 09, 2015, 06:03:34 pm

Quote from: edy on September 09, 2015, 01:07:44 pm

DAVE, be careful!  :scared:   Call me paranoid, but this may be a set up. How did they get your name?

How did they get the name of a popular blogger who blogs under his real name? Seriously?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on September 09, 2015, 06:32:05 pm

Quote from: kalleboo on September 09, 2015, 02:45:51 pm

Everyone I know who has been quoted in the media has been misquoted.

Well I'm sure we all know that statistically these anecdotal stories of whether the media treats sources fairly or not mean absolutely nothing...however, I'll just add, to balance things out a bit, I was "quoted" in an article about a subject that I am passionate about (and has a fairly large and vocal naysayer community against it: electric vehicles), and I will say that I was "misquoted", however I feel that the author SIGNIFICANTLY improved my words.  When I read the article I knew I had been misquoted because there is no way I could have been that eloquent.

So I suppose it comes down what you think their angle is and whether they might really be sympathetic to Batteroo or Youtube dislike companies, or whatever you think the article is about now.  If it's the Youtube thing, you're probably pretty safe, as it would be hard to believe that anyone could be sympathetic to people that want to defraud Youtube likes, and the newspaper will know that too and if only for the interest of making their readers happy, will put someone like Dave in a favorable light.  The Batteriser angle could go either way.  There are plenty of people that WANT to believe there is a magical device that could spell ruin for Big Battery.  But there are also a large number of people that would love to hear about scammers and how they were defeated.

What I like about Dave's approach so far is that he's stuck to the facts, and even stopped short of attacking Batteroo directly, but rather stuck to educating us on the right and wrong way to do these things.  I suspect that Dave can probably handle it well enough to avoid looking silly.

On the other hand, I honestly don't see what more they would really need that Dave hasn't already outlined in his videos.  If they basically want to pull information from that and want some background biographical information or photo, then I don't see the harm in it.  But if they try to get him to re-explain any of the technical material (in a possible attempt to entrap him somehow), I would just refer to the video for all the technical details.
 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 09, 2015, 06:49:14 pm

Quote from: lpickup on September 09, 2015, 06:32:05 pm

But if they try to get him to re-explain any of the technical material (in a possible attempt to entrap him somehow), I would just refer to the video for all the technical details.

I'm not so sure about that...  Would you really want them (who are probably not as technically-minded) to be trying to use your technical information without at least verifying their understanding of it with you?  I would think you'd want to do at least that, even if you don't provide any direct quotes, write any material for them or even be mentioned in any way in the actual article.

Dave's videos do a pretty good job of explaining everything but remember that many people do not have any technical background compared to EEVBLOG viewers and those on this forum even though we may sometimes forget that it may not be nearly as obvious to the average reader/viewer/etc.

Just my $.0216 AUD

(Sorry, currency conversion from Canada, you know, eh?)  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on September 09, 2015, 07:21:40 pm

Hey. I'm an machine fitter with an a non-english mother tongue and understand whats Dave talking about.

But youre right.
The media - SI unit of distance is soccer field and the media - SI unit for weight is cars   :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 09, 2015, 08:22:56 pm

New update on their indiegogo campaign:

Quote

We take input from our contributors seriously, and we need your help! We've put together a survey to learn what types of people are most interested in Batteriser and what products you're most interested in using the Batteriser with. The information you provide will be essential to us as we prepare for our retail launch.

Desperate to optimize the efficiency appropriately so the launch will be less of a total failure?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 09, 2015, 08:34:11 pm

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on September 09, 2015, 08:22:56 pm

New update on their indiegogo campaign:

Quote

We take input from our contributors seriously, and we need your help! We've put together a survey to learn what types of people are most interested in Batteriser and what products you're most interested in using the Batteriser with. The information you provide will be essential to us as we prepare for our retail launch.

Desperate to optimize the efficiency appropriately so the launch will be less of a total failure?

Isn't "what products you're most interested in using the Batteriser with" a question you want answered before you design the device, rather than after it's been potentially sold to thousands users?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on September 09, 2015, 08:40:05 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 12:35:42 pm

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on September 09, 2015, 12:26:52 pm

The story they're looking at here, presumably, is the manipulation of social media by individuals or corporate entities. Such as buying likes or dislikes on YouTube. Go for it.  :)

Actually, it seems to be an article on the Batteriser debunking in general:

Quote

We'd like to run a piece on your take-down of the Batterizer, and the company's subsequent response (rumours it bought dislikes for your page, quietly changed its claims etc).

For what it's worth, here's my opinion:

What got me annoyed about this project in the first place was the fact that the (internet)media just eagerly lent themselves to bring the great news about this new 'great invention'. They probably thought: "If this becomes something big, let us be the ones who brought it first. And if it's not big, well better luck next time". But what they failed to do is fact-checking. And personally I think that was very, very amateurish journalism.
This all was brought in the first place by media which gets paid only by advertisers and bringers of the news, but not by news-consumers.

A proper journalist would probably just have ignored this project, or written down the opinion of independent specialist.

And if we had only learned about this project after the igg-campaign had started, things would be completely different now. Chances are we (Dave) wouldn't even have picked it up.

But now this whole thing has become quite a mayhem, and there is a story in it with an important role for Dave: It's basically Dave and his global fan-base against professors in silicon valley. I can imagine that if you're a journalist from Sydney you want to write this down.

Now to decide if you should do this, I think Dave that is something you have to decide yourself. It will sure piss off Batteroo, they (or their fan) will probably accuse you of seeking the media. OTOH it will give some extra exposure to batteriser too.

Also it might bring you more fame in your home town. I mean it seems that even people in your building don't have any idea who you are or what you do. This is could change if the article is well written, and well read.

And of course keep it to the facts, and let people draw their own conclusions from it. But that is something you already do, so I don't see a danger in it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on September 09, 2015, 08:43:13 pm

Quote from: Rasz on September 09, 2015, 12:42:44 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 12:29:34 pm

Oh dear, Batteriser aren't content with flogging their own stuff, but are now flogging others:
They sent a backer email update plugging this campaign:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/aftershokz-trekz-bone-conduction-headphones#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/aftershokz-trekz-bone-conduction-headphones#/story)

Quote

Because our team dug the Trekz Titanium™ headphones so much, we coaxed the good folks at AfterShokz into putting together a special package just for our community. How cool is that?! Here’s the deal: all Batteriser backers can now access AfterShokz’s ShokzStar Special Edition Perk for only $99 (even though it’s listed at $129!). That means you get (1) Trekz Titanium™, (1) activity belt and (1) limited edition t-shirt for nearly 30% less than everyone else!

Tacky.

they "exchanged" support, those 'cheap shitty chinese already manufactured and ready to buy on aliexpress headphones' IGG campain posted same BS about Buttsexizer on their site.

Quote from: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 12:35:42 pm

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on September 09, 2015, 12:26:52 pm

The story they're looking at here, presumably, is the manipulation of social media by individuals or corporate entities. Such as buying likes or dislikes on YouTube. Go for it.  :)

Actually, it seems to be an article on the Batteriser debunking in general:

Quote

We'd like to run a piece on your take-down of the Batterizer, and the company's subsequent response (rumours it bought dislikes for your page, quietly changed its claims etc).

Nice. Its AU outfit so its bloody unlikely they would throw fellow Austrian under the bus. As long as they let you authorize it its cool.

I don't really see why this interview shouldn't happen. They're asking to talk about the reasoning behind the debunking video, and on the darker areas of social media.
Dave has a story on why he reacted on the batteriser claim based on EE principles (the first ask on the take-down part), and he can show what happened on his channel (the views vs dislikes vs country part).
He doesn't have to relate that to batteriser themselves - just like in the comments here; it's always been related to the fan page.

If press in Australia is like press in Belgium, it's going to be a fair analysis.

edit: I'm not a big fan of interviewees authorizing an article. I believe in journalists. But that's another story.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macman on September 09, 2015, 08:51:12 pm

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on September 09, 2015, 08:22:56 pm

New update on their indiegogo campaign:

Quote

We take input from our contributors seriously, and we need your help! We've put together a survey to learn what types of people are most interested in Batteriser and what products you're most interested in using the Batteriser with. The information you provide will be essential to us as we prepare for our retail launch.

Desperate to optimize the efficiency appropriately so the launch will be less of a total failure?

I saw that earlier. It made me smile when I was the survey was being done by SurveyMonkey.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on September 09, 2015, 09:01:49 pm

Quote from: Macman on September 09, 2015, 08:51:12 pm

I saw that earlier. It made me smile when I was the survey was being done by SurveyMonkey.

So we've gone from monkey-probing to a probing monkey? :D

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 09, 2015, 10:54:01 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 09, 2015, 02:44:21 pm

If people aren't convinced by anti-batteriser videos yet then they won't be convinced by any new tech-heavy ones.

The correct way to respond to this one is with a 3-minute, soundbite-heavy video.

Storyboard
"Only 20% of battery used used? Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope...."  (video of somebody going from device to device to device with a multimeter, nb. no explanation given, just say "nope, nope, nope...")

"GPS only lasts 2 hours? Nope. Current spikes shutting it down? Nope." (video of 5ky's GPS machine still ticking after 16.5 hours, with graph of time and current spikes)

"Calling us 'amateur teenage bloggers' with no real experience? LOL!" (video of Batteroo's engineer's workbench with price labels above their $60 eBay power supply, unused soldering irons, $70 Hantek current logger, etc. Cut to obviously non-teenage Dave, Dave's hardware with price labels above it, 5ky's hardware with price labels above it, etc. "Who's the amateurs here?")

"Measuring batteries open circuit, pretending they're still good then sticking them up a monkey's butt? Definitely!" (video of Batteroo measuring batteries, cut to video of Dave measuring dead batteries at 1.25V open circuit, his voltage recover curves, sticking them in his monkey and watching it run even when they were at 0.5V under load)

"Batteroo constantly changing their story to match facts as they are revealed to them? Priceless!" (montage of snapshots of all the edits and story-reversals we've got archived from their online comments)

I've been thinking a short summary video along those lines is needed, and of course would be funny, but not sure I could be bothered.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ozwolf on September 09, 2015, 11:00:21 pm

Hi Dave,

I believe your response to the newspaper should be along the lines of "when I get a Batteriser to test, I'm happy to be interviewed."

Only then can you be confident of the outcome.

Ozwolf

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on September 09, 2015, 11:03:51 pm

Quote from: ozwolf on September 09, 2015, 11:00:21 pm

Hi Dave,

I believe your response to the newspaper should be along the lines of "when I get a Batteriser to test, I'm happy to be interviewed."

Only then can you be confident of the outcome.

Ozwolf

Give this man a cookie! [emoji514]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 09, 2015, 11:22:33 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on September 09, 2015, 11:03:51 pm

Quote from: ozwolf on September 09, 2015, 11:00:21 pm

Hi Dave,

I believe your response to the newspaper should be along the lines of "when I get a Batteriser to test, I'm happy to be interviewed."

Only then can you be confident of the outcome.

Ozwolf

Give this man a cookie! [emoji514]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I second that! Give him 8x cookies...  [emoji514] [emoji514] [emoji514] [emoji514] [emoji514] [emoji514] [emoji514] [emoji514]

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ozwolf on September 09, 2015, 11:48:34 pm

Quote from: edy on September 09, 2015, 11:22:33 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on September 09, 2015, 11:03:51 pm

Quote from: ozwolf on September 09, 2015, 11:00:21 pm

Hi Dave,

I believe your response to the newspaper should be along the lines of "when I get a Batteriser to test, I'm happy to be interviewed."

Only then can you be confident of the outcome.

Ozwolf

Give this man a cookie! [emoji514]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I second that! Give him 8x cookies...  [emoji514] [emoji514] [emoji514] [emoji514] [emoji514] [emoji514] [emoji514] [emoji514]

Geez, I'm gonna get fat again.  Thanks any way.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 10, 2015, 12:36:06 am

It sounds to me like they're going to write the article on this subject either way.
They've given Dave the opportunity to have a share in how it's presented.
I think it would be a shame to reject that opportunity.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 10, 2015, 06:10:51 am

Quote from: ozwolf on September 09, 2015, 11:00:21 pm

Hi Dave,

I believe your response to the newspaper should be along the lines of "when I get a Batteriser to test, I'm happy to be interviewed."

Only then can you be confident of the outcome.

Ozwolf

Maybe I don't get the irony, but of course you can be confident before you have a Batteriser to test, because of physical laws and technical facts, like the bullshit that a boosted battery suddenly shows 100% full in a wireless keyboard. For all we know, and not the surpised user, it could suddenly die the next minute.

There should be a xkcd.com comic about it :)
panel 1: Mac keyboard with normal battery, level shows 10%
panel 2: zoom: put the Batterieser sleeve on it and back into the keyboard
panel 3: level shows 100%, stick man smiles, dumb comment from him
panel 4: one minute later: level shows 0%, clever comment from the woman from the back

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 10, 2015, 06:58:33 am

If you haven't already noticed, they've shared another persons videos...  :-DD

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 10, 2015, 07:24:24 am

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on September 09, 2015, 08:21:04 am

In other "news" new video out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwa_WQr5LnY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwa_WQr5LnY)
Well if you can call it "new", just the same crap, and that voltage spike theory is so busted by 5ky´s test

I just watched it, and all they say now is that the Batterieser helps with the voltage spikes, which is not a problem with the Garmin GPS device as independently demonstrated? Maybe the UL test failed and now they replace the ASIC boost converter with a bridge wire, selling a glorified capacitor :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 10, 2015, 07:26:55 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 10, 2015, 06:58:33 am

If you haven't already noticed, they've shared another persons videos...  :-DD

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A)

Yeah... I took a look at the rest of the content that ...person... has uploaded. There's nothing suspicious about the dislikes he's received. They're just genuine dislikes to his content. Heck, I disliked it myself.  If that's the sort of person the batteroo team want on their side, they're welcome to him!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 07:37:17 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 09, 2015, 12:35:03 pm

Time to expose the Batteroo Indian shills for posterity:

'We tested the Batteriser sleeve in our lab and we confirmed that the Batteriser taps into the 80 percent of energy that is usually thrown away.' Dr Kiumars Parvin

'How to make your batteries last 8x longer' video
Lakshmi Narasimhan

I'm Indian, and "Kiumars" is not an Indian name. "Kumar " though is. And the only two Dr. Praveen Kumar's EEs I could find where one from IIT Guwahati and another from BITS. I do not think either have anything to do with this crap.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 10, 2015, 07:41:58 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 10, 2015, 06:58:33 am

If you haven't already noticed, they've shared another persons videos...  :-DD

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A)

This guy in the video does have (sort of) a point: I think that in this thread alone more engineering hours have been spent than can be paid from the 300k$ IGG campain.

Of course he disregards the fact that someone is (potentially) making a lot of money, but that is besides the point I want to make.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on September 10, 2015, 07:43:25 am

Quote from: McBryce on September 09, 2015, 09:01:49 pm

Quote from: Macman on September 09, 2015, 08:51:12 pm

I saw that earlier. It made me smile when I was the survey was being done by SurveyMonkey.

So we've gone from monkey-probing to a probing monkey? :D

McBryce.

An infinite number of marketing monkeys with typewriters churning out Batteroo propaganda.

  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 07:52:29 am

Quote from: Delta on September 09, 2015, 02:36:55 pm

Do the newspaper thing Dave.  Don't let the all-media-are-out-to-get-us posse put you off. 😃

Unless they agree to let you review the content they are going to publish, don't. I have seen cases where even technical magazines (like IEEE Spectrum) have misquoted the interviewee. Any additional views you may get for your videos will drastically die down after a few months as it will be purely a temporary phenomenon.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 10, 2015, 07:55:53 am

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 07:37:17 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 09, 2015, 12:35:03 pm

Time to expose the Batteroo Indian shills for posterity:

'We tested the Batteriser sleeve in our lab and we confirmed that the Batteriser taps into the 80 percent of energy that is usually thrown away.' Dr Kiumars Parvin

'How to make your batteries last 8x longer' video
Lakshmi Narasimhan

I'm Indian, and "Kiumars" is not an Indian name. "Kumar " though is. And the only two Dr. Praveen Kumar's EEs I could find where one from IIT Guwahati and another from BITS. I do not think either have anything to do with this crap.

Correct, not Indian, probably Iranian. Country roots are not that important. What is important is that educated people are making outrageous statements in support of Batteroo's wild claims.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 08:05:39 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 10, 2015, 07:55:53 am

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 07:37:17 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 09, 2015, 12:35:03 pm

Time to expose the Batteroo Indian shills for posterity:

'We tested the Batteriser sleeve in our lab and we confirmed that the Batteriser taps into the 80 percent of energy that is usually thrown away.' Dr Kiumars Parvin

'How to make your batteries last 8x longer' video
Lakshmi Narasimhan

I'm Indian, and "Kiumars" is not an Indian name. "Kumar " though is. And the only two Dr. Praveen Kumar's EEs I could find where one from IIT Guwahati and another from BITS. I do not think either have anything to do with this crap.

Correct, not Indian, probably Iranian. Country roots are not that important. What is important is that educated people are making outrageous statements in support of Batteroo's wild claims.

This is the guy http://www.sjsu.edu/people/kiumars.parvin/ (http://www.sjsu.edu/people/kiumars.parvin/)  (http://www.recyclinginternational.com/recycling-news/8815/e-scrap-and-batteries/united-states/bringing-used-batteries-back-dead (http://www.recyclinginternational.com/recycling-news/8815/e-scrap-and-batteries/united-states/bringing-used-batteries-back-dead))

From what I can see, he is no EE.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 08:13:30 am

Another "quality post" from a Batteriser supporter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR75iaxASHI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR75iaxASHI)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 10, 2015, 08:16:06 am

They are in panic. I guess they was expecting near a million from the IGG campaign.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 10, 2015, 08:20:10 am

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 08:13:30 am

Another "quality post" from a Batteriser supporter [/url]

He's an infantile view-whore, jumping on the bandwagon. His dislikes on this video will be genuine too, I'd suggest.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Joule Thief on September 10, 2015, 08:22:28 am

Quote from: samgab on September 10, 2015, 07:26:55 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 10, 2015, 06:58:33 am

If you haven't already noticed, they've shared another persons videos...  :-DD

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A)

they will have to send him a memo to have him stop calling it a

"battery-er-iser"   :palm:

and repeating the chant " it's only two fiddy, hell yeah I'm going buy it - not like I have to take out a mortgage or nuttin' "

the new promo campaign will be

Battery-er-iser, what the hell, it's only two fiddy

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on September 10, 2015, 08:36:05 am

Quote from: ozwolf on September 09, 2015, 11:00:21 pm

Hi Dave,

I believe your response to the newspaper should be along the lines of "when I get a Batteriser to test, I'm happy to be interviewed."

Only then can you be confident of the outcome.

Ozwolf

'when I get a solar roadway then Ill be happy to do an interview' ...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Quarlo Klobrigney on September 10, 2015, 08:42:51 am

Crunch crackle crunch Batteryizer YoYo dur dur Batteryizer freakin ain't I whatever.... :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:
BTW love the Rocky Cat.....You, not so much.

A real brain trust in that video. Nuff said.

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 10, 2015, 06:58:33 am

If you haven't already noticed, they've shared another persons videos...  :-DD

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on September 10, 2015, 08:52:21 am

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 08:05:39 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 10, 2015, 07:55:53 am

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 07:37:17 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 09, 2015, 12:35:03 pm

Time to expose the Batteroo Indian shills for posterity:

'We tested the Batteriser sleeve in our lab and we confirmed that the Batteriser taps into the 80 percent of energy that is usually thrown away.' Dr Kiumars Parvin

'How to make your batteries last 8x longer' video
Lakshmi Narasimhan

I'm Indian, and "Kiumars" is not an Indian name. "Kumar " though is. And the only two Dr. Praveen Kumar's EEs I could find where one from IIT Guwahati and another from BITS. I do not think either have anything to do with this crap.

Correct, not Indian, probably Iranian. Country roots are not that important. What is important is that educated people are making outrageous statements in support of Batteroo's wild claims.

This is the guy http://www.sjsu.edu/people/kiumars.parvin/ (http://www.sjsu.edu/people/kiumars.parvin/)  (http://www.recyclinginternational.com/recycling-news/8815/e-scrap-and-batteries/united-states/bringing-used-batteries-back-dead (http://www.recyclinginternational.com/recycling-news/8815/e-scrap-and-batteries/united-states/bringing-used-batteries-back-dead))

From what I can see, he is no EE.

Professor, Physics & Astronomy

Oh yes! Why nobody did provide that info before?

What about the rest of people involved? This smells more than ever.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on September 10, 2015, 08:57:17 am

Perhaps  a chemist knows more about batteries than an EE, why should a physicist not know more about batteries than an EE ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikron on September 10, 2015, 08:58:38 am

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 08:13:30 am

Another "quality post" from a Batteriser supporter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR75iaxASHI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR75iaxASHI)

A sock puppet playing with sock muppets...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 10, 2015, 09:02:54 am

Quote from: samgab on September 10, 2015, 12:36:06 am

It sounds to me like they're going to write the article on this subject either way.

Quote from: samgab on September 10, 2015, 12:36:06 am

They've given Dave the opportunity to have a share in how it's presented.

As in: They're looking for a cheap way to use more of Dave's image to fit their personal agenda.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 10, 2015, 09:06:54 am

Quote from: Kjelt on September 10, 2015, 08:57:17 am

Perhaps  a chemist knows more about batteries than an EE, why should a physicist not know more about batteries than an EE ?

No need for such overgeneralisation. There's no 'about batteries', and there's no 'a chemist', no 'an EE' and 'a physicist'

Apart from the ones that just popped of school, they share less than 5% common knowledge after some years.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on September 10, 2015, 09:14:57 am

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 08:05:39 am

http://www.recyclinginternational.com/recycling-news/8815/e-scrap-and-batteries/united-states/bringing-used-batteries-back-dead (http://www.recyclinginternational.com/recycling-news/8815/e-scrap-and-batteries/united-states/bringing-used-batteries-back-dead)

"Most new batteries contain 1.5 V of energy"  |O

At which point, what's the point of reading any further?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 10, 2015, 09:32:56 am

I'm surprised no one has come up with a Batteriser meme featuring a sex toy of sorts. Increase your pleasure by 800%... or maybe a 'Fleshlight' instead of their flashlight... I dunno, this is all off the top of my head and I'm no good with Photoshop.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 10, 2015, 09:37:28 am

Quote from: ozwolf on September 09, 2015, 11:00:21 pm

I believe your response to the newspaper should be along the lines of "when I get a Batteriser to test, I'm happy to be interviewed."

Only then can you be confident of the outcome.

I think Dave is quite confident right now. I know I am.

(Of course that doesn't mean Batteriser can't still be huge commercial success. Get them on the checkouts at Walmart and you'll sell millions whether they work or not - so much for Batteriser saving the environment!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ozwolf on September 10, 2015, 10:49:37 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on September 10, 2015, 06:10:51 am

Quote from: ozwolf on September 09, 2015, 11:00:21 pm

Hi Dave,

I believe your response to the newspaper should be along the lines of "when I get a Batteriser to test, I'm happy to be interviewed."

Only then can you be confident of the outcome.

Ozwolf

Maybe I don't get the irony, but of course you can be confident before you have a Batteriser to test, because of physical laws and technical facts, like the bullshit that a boosted battery suddenly shows 100% full in a wireless keyboard. For all we know, and not the surpised user, it could suddenly die the next minute.

There should be a xkcd.com comic about it :)
panel 1: Mac keyboard with normal battery, level shows 10%
panel 2: zoom: put the Batterieser sleeve on it and back into the keyboard
panel 3: level shows 100%, stick man smiles, dumb comment from him
panel 4: one minute later: level shows 0%, clever comment from the woman from the back

We (the community on EEVblog) may understand the physical laws and technical facts, but the newspaper and its readers are less likely to do so. 

Let the reporter and newspaper put pressure on Batteriser to send a couple of prototypes to Dave for testing.  The real story may then become why Batteriser won't let their device be subject to peer review.

Ozwolf

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 10, 2015, 10:51:29 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 10, 2015, 06:58:33 am

If you haven't already noticed, they've shared another persons videos...  :-DD

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A)

As a French people, I feel beeing insulted by the "synergy" guy with his French flag in the background. French revolution have nothing to do with this crap.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 10, 2015, 10:52:50 am

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 08:13:30 am

Another "quality post" from a Batteriser supporter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR75iaxASHI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR75iaxASHI)

which he removed and re-uploaded...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fvJUjeojG0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fvJUjeojG0)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 11:11:25 am

Quote from: Circuiteromalaguito on September 10, 2015, 08:52:21 am

Professor, Physics & Astronomy

Oh yes! Why nobody did provide that info before?

What about the rest of people involved? This smells more than ever.

Lakshmi Narasimha: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp-63GvqMiE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp-63GvqMiE)
He is no EE. He is a "software engineer".

https://www.linkedin.com/in/lakshminarasimhanav (https://www.linkedin.com/in/lakshminarasimhanav)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 10, 2015, 11:20:28 am

Quote from: samgab on September 10, 2015, 07:26:55 am

There's nothing suspicious about the dislikes he's received. They're just genuine dislikes to his content. Heck, I disliked it myself. 

Yup, he of course didn't show the overlay of the views and dislikes.
His video got featured on the Batteriser page, so people saw it and they disliked it. Simple.

Quote

If that's the sort of person the batteroo team want on their side, they're welcome to him!

Probably best to let Batteriser simply self implode at this point.

BTW, I lost count of the number of people who came up to me at Electronex over the last two days and mentioned Batteriser. Just face palm after face palm.
The best comedy writers on the planet couldn't have scripted it better.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 11:22:40 am

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 11:11:25 am

Lakshmi Narasimha: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp-63GvqMiE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp-63GvqMiE)
He is no EE. He is a "software engineer".
https://www.linkedin.com/in/lakshminarasimhanav (https://www.linkedin.com/in/lakshminarasimhanav)

From his Linkedin profile, He works at a company called "Startup Inc"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 10, 2015, 11:40:46 am

12 views, 300 dislikes...
204 views, 3 dislikes...

Yeah, that seems legit!  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 10, 2015, 12:14:26 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on September 10, 2015, 09:32:56 am

I'm surprised no one has come up with a Batteriser meme featuring a sex toy of sorts. Increase your pleasure by 800%... or maybe a 'Fleshlight' instead of their flashlight... I dunno, this is all off the top of my head and I'm no good with Photoshop.

Feel free to call the monkey "spanks" instead of "probes".

(Just keep it to yourself)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Quarlo Klobrigney on September 10, 2015, 12:17:30 pm

Your all up in my space!
Too close for an interview for my liking.

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 11:22:40 am

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 11:11:25 am

Lakshmi Narasimha: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp-63GvqMiE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp-63GvqMiE)
He is no EE. He is a "software engineer".
https://www.linkedin.com/in/lakshminarasimhanav (https://www.linkedin.com/in/lakshminarasimhanav)

From his Linkedin profile, He works at a company called "Startup Inc"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 10, 2015, 12:43:08 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 10, 2015, 11:20:28 am

Probably best to let Batteriser simply self implode at this point.

BTW, I lost count of the number of people who came up to me at Electronex over the last two days and mentioned Batteriser. Just face palm after face palm.
The best comedy writers on the planet couldn't have scripted it better.

Hence the need to wait regarding the interview and/or article and resist the temptation to further stoke this flaming disaster. I would wait until they ship (if they ever do)... and if they don't, well you have your answer either way. Honestly I would just ignore Batteriser at this point and revisit them in 2 months to see what is left of this train wreck.

And that is the unfortunate thing about these crowd-funding campaigns. The backers and initial media run are all drinking the "Kool-Aid" and when critical thinking and debunking enters the picture, it is often too late and not really able to target who has already bought in to the idea. So while it may be a useful exercise for critical analysis and fundamentals review, it will be a monumental job and likely will make little difference to go after each and every dubious crowd-funding campaign. The system must be changed or laws enacted to protect backers and penalize scammers severely, just like those who run pyramid schemes or inside trading and stock schemes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 10, 2015, 12:47:14 pm

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 11:11:25 am

He is no EE. He is a "software engineer".

So? I'm a video game programmer, that doesn't stop me knowing about electronics.

(And Dave Jones is a performing arts graduate and fitness trainer who used to run Internet dating sites).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 10, 2015, 01:52:01 pm

Wow the level of stupidity of thoses bateroo fan are just over 9000...

I don't think I insulted him apart from saying that I feel insulted myself by his stupid comparison...
(I wonder if I should report his comment)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrRobSteel on September 10, 2015, 02:12:31 pm

Quote

Batteriser Fan Page posted 22 hours ago
Here is an honorable man who is capable of making rational and conscious conclusions. There is a bigger picture. Who is behind all the paid dislikes on Batteriser Fan Page for the past 3 months? Wake up and open your eyes, don't let the future fall to professional manipulators and professional "victims". Who has really been under attack since day one? Batteriser.

Good to know that Batteriser only associate with the most honorable, rational people.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on September 10, 2015, 02:15:52 pm

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=170459 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=170459)

1 Godwin point for Batterizer...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Quarlo Klobrigney on September 10, 2015, 02:18:50 pm

Quote from: MrRobSteel on September 10, 2015, 02:12:31 pm

Good to know that Batteriser only associate with the most honorable, rational people.

Sounds like a guy I used to work with. Eventually they burn themselves out. Hopefully without taking others with them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 02:26:30 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 10, 2015, 12:47:14 pm

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 11:11:25 am

He is no EE. He is a "software engineer".

So? I'm a video game programmer, that doesn't stop me knowing about electronics.

(And Dave Jones is a performing arts graduate and fitness trainer who used to run Internet dating sites).

Well I was just trying to put to rest their claim of "many professors" vs "EEs". Anyway I'm also not an EE by education. I 'm a researcher and programmer whose first hobby has always been electronics till it was overtaken by  programming and then spent over the last decade specializing in signal processing, and machine learning. Dave's blog sort of caused me to start spending  time with electronics over the last few years. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on September 10, 2015, 02:39:47 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 10, 2015, 01:52:01 pm

Wow the level of stupidity of thoses bateroo fan are just over 9000...

I don't think I insulted him apart from saying that I feel insulted myself by his stupid comparison...
(I wonder if I should report his comment)

Godwin's law works every time
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=170459;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: felixd on September 10, 2015, 02:52:01 pm

Quote from: MrRobSteel on September 10, 2015, 02:12:31 pm

Quote

Batteriser Fan Page posted 22 hours ago
Here is an honorable man who is capable of making rational and conscious conclusions. There is a bigger picture. Who is behind all the paid dislikes on Batteriser Fan Page for the past 3 months? Wake up and open your eyes, don't let the future fall to professional manipulators and professional "victims". Who has really been under attack since day one? Batteriser.

Good to know that Batteriser only associate with the most honorable, rational people.

Nice to see my own comment here ;)
Yup, you're right about this guy.

Greetings from Poland! :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 10, 2015, 03:01:34 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 10, 2015, 01:52:01 pm

Wow the level of stupidity of thoses bateroo fan are just over 9000...

Do they honestly think the haters are being paid by "Big Battery"?

Their heads must be messed up inside, I can't even think down to a level where that's the way the world works.

Facts are facts. Big Battery is sleeping soundly tonight.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on September 10, 2015, 03:21:20 pm

"15 miles from France"??? So they're from Belgium, Holland, Germany, Luxemburg or Spain???

Or does he mean some small US town called France?

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on September 10, 2015, 03:25:19 pm

Quote from: McBryce on September 10, 2015, 03:21:20 pm

"15 miles from France"??? So they're from Belgium, Holland, Germany, Luxemburg or Spain???

Or does he mean some small US town called France?

McBryce.

Treading water off the coast of Dover  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 10, 2015, 03:26:10 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 10, 2015, 11:20:28 am

Quote from: samgab on September 10, 2015, 07:26:55 am

There's nothing suspicious about the dislikes he's received. They're just genuine dislikes to his content. Heck, I disliked it myself. 

Yup, he of course didn't show the overlay of the views and dislikes.
His video got featured on the Batteriser page, so people saw it and they disliked it. Simple.

Quote

If that's the sort of person the batteroo team want on their side, they're welcome to him!

Probably best to let Batteriser simply self implode at this point.

BTW, I lost count of the number of people who came up to me at Electronex over the last two days and mentioned Batteriser. Just face palm after face palm.
The best comedy writers on the planet couldn't have scripted it better.

It's over. Sanity and good engineering won. Batteroo is so over-committed  and under-funded at this point it's beyond laughable. They have at least three more sets of injection molds to pay for and likely four sets of progressive dies for the sheet metal. The C and D batteries will the coup de grace if they actually try to fulfill those orders. They are literally spending tens of thousands of dollars to make a few hundred.

The sheet metal dies will be a total bastard with their current design. They need DFM help. Badly.

The plastics will be fairly expensive. Making that high zoot clear case instead of just using plastic clamshell packaging was just nuts. The C and D version sell for the same price, yet have vastly lower volume, and higher tooling and part costs. Batteroo has to be looking for a way to not build those. I think that's the purpose of the survey. The real survey should have been: "can we give you a refund and walk away?"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on September 10, 2015, 03:27:14 pm

Quote from: McBryce on September 10, 2015, 03:21:20 pm

"15 miles from France"??? So they're from Belgium, Holland, Germany, Luxemburg or Spain???

Or does he mean some small US town called France?

McBryce.

Andorra, Monaco?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on September 10, 2015, 03:30:48 pm

Quote from: jancumps on September 10, 2015, 03:27:14 pm

Quote from: McBryce on September 10, 2015, 03:21:20 pm

"15 miles from France"??? So they're from Belgium, Holland, Germany, Luxemburg or Spain???

Or does he mean some small US town called France?

McBryce.

Andorra, Monaco?

I knew I'd forget a few :)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 10, 2015, 03:34:32 pm

I've genuinely didn't understood that part of his reply, but it's the most uninteresting part of it anyway

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on September 10, 2015, 03:35:09 pm

Quote from: McBryce on September 10, 2015, 03:30:48 pm

Quote from: jancumps on September 10, 2015, 03:27:14 pm

Quote from: McBryce on September 10, 2015, 03:21:20 pm

"15 miles from France"??? So they're from Belgium, Holland, Germany, Luxemburg or Spain???

Or does he mean some small US town called France?

McBryce.

Andorra, Monaco?

I knew I'd forget a few :)

McBryce.

Swiss, Italy  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 10, 2015, 03:53:20 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 10, 2015, 10:52:50 am

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 08:13:30 am

Another "quality post" from a Batteriser supporter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR75iaxASHI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR75iaxASHI)

which he removed and re-uploaded...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fvJUjeojG0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fvJUjeojG0)

thanks for making me watch that.  I think I lost some brain cells watching that garbage

if you think that's bad, watch this trainwreck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjWYlC8OcP4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjWYlC8OcP4)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on September 10, 2015, 03:54:22 pm

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 11:22:40 am

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 10, 2015, 11:11:25 am

Lakshmi Narasimha: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp-63GvqMiE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp-63GvqMiE)
He is no EE. He is a "software engineer".
https://www.linkedin.com/in/lakshminarasimhanav (https://www.linkedin.com/in/lakshminarasimhanav)

From his Linkedin profile, He works at a company called "Startup Inc"

One is a physicist and astronomer teacher that worked as Micron.

The other is a "software engineer".

Where they did study to get their degrees?

Quote from: EEVblog on September 10, 2015, 11:20:28 am

Quote from: samgab on September 10, 2015, 07:26:55 am

There's nothing suspicious about the dislikes he's received. They're just genuine dislikes to his content. Heck, I disliked it myself. 

Yup, he of course didn't show the overlay of the views and dislikes.
His video got featured on the Batteriser page, so people saw it and they disliked it. Simple.

Quote

If that's the sort of person the batteroo team want on their side, they're welcome to him!

Probably best to let Batteriser simply self implode at this point.

BTW, I lost count of the number of people who came up to me at Electronex over the last two days and mentioned Batteriser. Just face palm after face palm.
The best comedy writers on the planet couldn't have scripted it better.

This would be funnier than the Micro Men TV documentary drama  movie. What about prepare a script movie draft and find some starting talents to do it after some months? This could be the geekier movie ever made, even better if other EEvBlog friendly people collaborate. It would be amazing if being geek and hilarious at same time.


Suggested titles
- "Clamping Monkey Scammers"
- "Magical Battery Optimizer"
- "Battery Fools and Scammers"
- "Ohm's Law Violation"
- "Battery Rise Men"
- "The Incredible Scamming of Batteriser"

Or a mini series about different stuff:

- Techie criminals
- Snake Oil in Tech
- Tech Scammers


You could initiate a new section or series
EEvFiction by "That Crazy Aussie Bloke" Films.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kire Pûdsje on September 10, 2015, 04:22:34 pm

Quote from: jancumps on September 10, 2015, 03:35:09 pm

Quote from: McBryce on September 10, 2015, 03:30:48 pm

Quote from: jancumps on September 10, 2015, 03:27:14 pm

Quote from: McBryce on September 10, 2015, 03:21:20 pm

"15 miles from France"??? So they're from Belgium, Holland, Germany, Luxemburg or Spain???

Or does he mean some small US town called France?

McBryce.

Andorra, Monaco?

I knew I'd forget a few :)

McBryce.

Swiss, Italy  :)

Why stop, since 'Holland' is mentioned (bordering France in Sint Maarten/Saint Martin), a complete (I hope) list would be: Spain, Andorra, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Monaco, Brazil, Suriname, The Netherlands.
BTW: Holland != The Netherlands, just like England != UK

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on September 10, 2015, 04:35:05 pm

I did say I missed a few  ::)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 10, 2015, 04:47:34 pm

Quote from: Kire Pûdsje on September 10, 2015, 04:22:34 pm

Why stop, since 'Holland' is mentioned (bordering France in Sint Maarten/Saint Martin)

If we're going to include French overseas territories then the list will get a lot longer than that.

(But let's not...eh?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: andrew.perrong on September 10, 2015, 05:50:53 pm

I will just leave this here.
I got a reply from UL.

"Hello

Thank you for taking the time to contact UL to report your concern. 

UL cannot provide you with any information regarding UL projects as it is not public information. 

We are working with the company to clarify the information posted on their website.


Best regards,

MXXX. LXXXXXXXX XXXXXXX
Market Surveillance Analyst
________________________
UL LLC
333 Pfingsten Road
Northbrook, IL  60062
Email: Market.Surveillance@ul.com
W: ul.com"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on September 10, 2015, 05:54:24 pm

Quote from: TimmyToner on September 10, 2015, 04:15:11 pm

I have done some digging (attached pdf) and have a crazy theory that the Batteriser Fan Page YouTube channel is run by a Roohparvar (probably Ali). 

Great detective work.  I also have my suspicions this might be the case.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 10, 2015, 06:13:58 pm

Quote from: andrew.perrong on September 10, 2015, 05:50:53 pm

I will just leave this here.
I got a reply from UL.

"Hello

Thank you for taking the time to contact UL to report your concern. 

UL cannot provide you with any information regarding UL projects as it is not public information. 

We are working with the company to clarify the information posted on their website.


Best regards,

MXXX. LXXXXXXXX XXXXXXX
Market Surveillance Analyst
________________________
UL LLC
333 Pfingsten Road
Northbrook, IL  60062
Email: Market.Surveillance@ul.com
W: ul.com"

What your senses say about their response? Anyone with experience dealing with UL?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 10, 2015, 06:19:39 pm

Quote from: TimmyToner on September 10, 2015, 04:15:11 pm

Hello EEVblog,

Sorry this is slightly off topic.

I have done some digging (attached pdf) and have a crazy theory that the Batteriser Fan Page YouTube channel is run by a Roohparvar (probably Ali). 

Thoughts?

P.S.
Sorry about the jpeg quality

Any thoughts? Ahem.... I think you nailed it m8!

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 10, 2015, 06:43:12 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on September 10, 2015, 06:29:06 pm

Isn`t this a case for the FBI? It should be clearly fradulent.

No. This isn't close to FBI material.  If they go public with an IPO, then the SEC could go after them. Right now, at worst, the FTC or CA state attorney general can make funny faces at them. That's about it.

This will go away on its own. Actually attempting to manufacture at this scale with so little money is punishment enough.

Patience.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 10, 2015, 07:18:19 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 10, 2015, 06:43:12 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on September 10, 2015, 06:29:06 pm

Isn`t this a case for the FBI? It should be clearly fradulent.

This will go away on its own. Actually attempting to manufacture at this scale with so little money is punishment enough.
Patience.

It could be the reason they even did the IndieGogo campaign was because of pressure from their VC backers (SK Telecom) to establish a client base or market as a contingency of them getting their million dollar funding. This way, if an IndieGogo campaign goes sour, SK Telecom backs out.

Yes, having just over $300k to manufacture this number and variety of devices is no money at all, even in China. The die-and-tooling needed to create punches, formers and folders for the sleeves alone, not to mention the PCB fabrication line and assembly, will cost much more. Once again, if they keep to their November release (if at all) I will be a Probes The Monkey's uncle.  :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 10, 2015, 07:32:35 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 10, 2015, 06:43:12 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on September 10, 2015, 06:29:06 pm

Isn`t this a case for the FBI? It should be clearly fradulent.

No. This isn't close to FBI material.

It might be FTC material though.

But anyway, the goggle-eyed people who signed up on IGG will all get what they deserve, if the claims made here for manufacturing costs are true then the Batteriser Brothers will get what they deserve too.

Let's hope the people who invested via. SK Telecom aren't stung too badly - just enough to make them wary of backing snake oil salesmen in the future.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 10, 2015, 07:59:55 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 10, 2015, 07:32:35 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 10, 2015, 06:43:12 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on September 10, 2015, 06:29:06 pm

Isn`t this a case for the FBI? It should be clearly fradulent.

No. This isn't close to FBI material.

It might be FTC material though.

But anyway, the goggle-eyed people who signed up on IGG will all get what they deserve, if the claims made here for manufacturing costs are true then the Batteriser Brothers will get what they deserve too.

Let's hope the people who invested via. SK Telecom aren't stung too badly - just enough to make them wary of backing snake oil salesmen in the future.

Already noted the FTC. 

I don't know SK Telecom personally, but I'm not sure that there's anyone involved that I'd put a white hat on right now.  This fiasco is very likely a combination of unrealistic promises from Batteroo coupled with unrealistic expectations from SK.  The thought that anyone was going to go from zero to full tilt boogie mass-market retail distribution in under six months and less than $1M USD with FOUR unique products ... well ... not a chance.  Not even close. 

In SK's defense, I'll say that they were probably heavily relying upon Bob Roohparvar's experience from Flextronics to guide them.  Instead we have a project that is hard to believe that anyone from Flex would believe worked from a time/resources standpoint.

There might have been a time when Batteroo could have gotten a bank loan or revolving line of credit based on the receivables from the retail orders, but those obviously evaporated since they extended the IGG campaign in the hopes that they would get enough money to go to production. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on September 10, 2015, 08:18:05 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 10, 2015, 03:53:20 pm

if you think that's bad, watch this trainwreck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjWYlC8OcP4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjWYlC8OcP4)

He has a sort of Southern US kind of accent, I would say Georgia or Alabama, maybe Louisiana.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 10, 2015, 09:04:55 pm

Well, someone at Garmin has just replied to my query, and they have completely avoided answering anything about the Alkaline battery life issue.

Again, here is my question:

Quote

"The company startup "Batteroo" with the pending product "Batteriser" have published a video in which they claim to test a Garmin Approach G3 using new Alkaline batteries, and they state that it only lasts 1 hour and 52 minutes before it dies. This claim has been widely spread on youtube, their own website, and other parts of the internet.

Can Garmin confirm or refute whether the Approach G3 will only last for under 2 hours on new Alkaline Duracell batteries, and then the batteries would need to be changed?"

[/i]

And here is their answer:

Quote

"Thank you for contacting Garmin International. I would be happy to assist you today. NiMH or Lithium batteries are recommended for the Approach G3, and the expected battery life is up to 15 hours using either of these batteries.

When determining which batteries will suit your application best it is important to note, if Lithium batteries are chosen, that two distinct types exist.

Lithium Batteries
Lithium Ion Batteries
The difference in these two types of batteries resides in the voltage each produces. Please check to ensure that the voltage listed on the battery does not exceed the voltage requirement of your GPS listed in the manual.

The difference in voltage between the two batteries is as follows:

Lithium batteries have a voltage of 1.75V and are not rechargeable
Lithium Ion batteries have a voltage of 4.2V and are rechargeable
Often Lithium batteries are the preferred choice for those choosing to use such a battery. In many cases, a Lithium battery will need to be used after its voltage has dropped below the recommended voltage listed in the device manual. It is not recommended that Lithium Ion batteries be used. In many cases these batteries exceed the limits of Garmin GPS devices and can cause irreversible damage."

[/i]

I'm fairly sure I just got one of their standard form replies. I don't think she even read my email, just saw "G3... battery life... hmm, okay, send form letter on using NiMH or Lithium batteries."

I replied, pushing for an actual considered response:

Quote

"Thank you for your reply, I appreciate your time.
However, I find that my question hasn't been answered. I understand that the recommended cells are Lithium metal or NiMH and I understand the difference between Lithium metal primary cells and Lithium ion cells, however; the Approach G3 has an Alkaline setting, so it was clearly also designed with the ability to be run on those. Sometimes, for different reasons, the only batteries available are Alkalines, such as Duracell Power Plus, and my question was: How much battery life could reasonably be expected using Alkaline cells without the use of some device to boost the voltage? Is it less than 2 hours as claimed by the Batteriser people in their media campaign? Or about half a round of golf per set of Alkaline batteries?"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 10, 2015, 09:18:21 pm

Here is the Garmin Approach G3 manual:

http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/ApproachG3_OwnersManual.pdf (http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/ApproachG3_OwnersManual.pdf)

Page 1 - The Approach operates on two AA batteries (not included). Use alkaline, NiMH or lithium batteries.
Page 7 - Battery Type - select Akaline, Lithium and rechargeable NiMH.
Page 10 - Power source: Two AA batteries (Alkaline, NiMH or lithium)

So they now DON'T recommend alkaline or do they just not want to say anything?  :wtf:

EDIT: spelling errors.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: gore on September 10, 2015, 09:19:27 pm

Sounds like a regular, robotic PR type response taken right off of a template. I don't think the person answering has any idea or care for the issue being discussed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 10, 2015, 09:38:30 pm

Quote from: samgab on September 10, 2015, 09:04:55 pm

Well, someone at Garmin has just replied to my query, and they have completely avoided answering anything about the Alkaline battery life issue.

Again, here is my question:

Quote

"The company startup "Batteroo" with the pending product "Batteriser" have published a video in which they claim to test a Garmin Approach G3 using new Alkaline batteries, and they state that it only lasts 1 hour and 52 minutes before it dies. This claim has been widely spread on youtube, their own website, and other parts of the internet.

Can Garmin confirm or refute whether the Approach G3 will only last for under 2 hours on new Alkaline Duracell batteries, and then the batteries would need to be changed?"

[/i]

And here is their answer:

Quote

"Thank you for contacting Garmin International. I would be happy to assist you today. NiMH or Lithium batteries are recommended for the Approach G3, and the expected battery life is up to 15 hours using either of these batteries.

When determining which batteries will suit your application best it is important to note, if Lithium batteries are chosen, that two distinct types exist.

Lithium Batteries
Lithium Ion Batteries
The difference in these two types of batteries resides in the voltage each produces. Please check to ensure that the voltage listed on the battery does not exceed the voltage requirement of your GPS listed in the manual.

The difference in voltage between the two batteries is as follows:

Lithium batteries have a voltage of 1.75V and are not rechargeable
Lithium Ion batteries have a voltage of 4.2V and are rechargeable
Often Lithium batteries are the preferred choice for those choosing to use such a battery. In many cases, a Lithium battery will need to be used after its voltage has dropped below the recommended voltage listed in the device manual. It is not recommended that Lithium Ion batteries be used. In many cases these batteries exceed the limits of Garmin GPS devices and can cause irreversible damage."

[/i]

I'm fairly sure I just got one of their standard form replies. I don't think she even read my email, just saw "G3... battery life... hmm, okay, send form letter on using NiMH or Lithium batteries."

I replied, pushing for an actual considered response:

Quote

"Thank you for your reply, I appreciate your time.
However, I find that my question hasn't been answered. I understand that the recommended cells are Lithium metal or NiMH and I understand the difference between Lithium metal primary cells and Lithium ion cells, however; the Approach G3 has an Alkaline setting, so it was clearly also designed with the ability to be run on those. Sometimes, for different reasons, the only batteries available are Alkalines, such as Duracell Power Plus, and my question was: How much battery life could reasonably be expected using Alkaline cells without the use of some device to boost the voltage? Is it less than 2 hours as claimed by the Batteriser people in their media campaign? Or about half a round of golf per set of Alkaline batteries?"

Wow! I just got a lightning fast response to my reply to their reply from an actual human! Maybe replies to standard replies get escalated to second tier support right away, I don't know. Anyway, this response is much better:

Quote

"Thank you for contacting Garmin International. I can help you here.

Quick question, are you planning on tapping on the screen of the device every 15 seconds like they do in the sample video?

If your answer is "yes" then I can say it may be likely that you can drain the batteries very quickly.

Under normal use however, the device will last 3 or possibly 4 rounds of golf before they are too drained. So 12 - 16 hours.

I've had a set of energizers in my G5 for months and it still has enough power for me to troubleshoot situations.

Finally, I don't think I have ever heard of Batteriser or Batteroo so I'm not sure I would find any claim from them towards another companies product to be of any value.



Let us know if you have any other questions. "

So I replied to him:

Quote

"Awesome! Thanks Sean, nice to get a considered response from a human. That's what I was looking for.

Pass my email to your boss as a good work story if you like. "

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: warp_foo on September 10, 2015, 10:04:34 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on September 10, 2015, 08:18:05 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 10, 2015, 03:53:20 pm

if you think that's bad, watch this trainwreck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjWYlC8OcP4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjWYlC8OcP4)

He has a sort of Southern US kind of accent, I would say Georgia or Alabama, maybe Louisiana.

No, definitely not a southern accent. I place that accent somewhere in the NE quadrant on the US.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Joule Thief on September 10, 2015, 10:23:49 pm

I am guessing the Pittsburgh area or more likely the 80 IQ Dunning Kruger corridor from southern Philadelphia thru northeastern New Jersey.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 10, 2015, 10:36:46 pm

This syyenergy7 guy has 18,162 subscribers and 10,301,216 views.

He put up the muppet video poking fun at Dave as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fvJUjeojG0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fvJUjeojG0)

A lot of his videos have "click-bait" showing slide-shows of women on motorcycles or other completely random stuff while he talks (or "rants") about completely different stuff. He has tons of videos, quite a prolific YouTuber. All of which is monetized.

I don't believe anyone put him up to this... certainly not Batteroo. He likely just saw an opportunity to climb to this "hot" topic in order to increase viewership and earnings on YouTube. The more you click on his videos, the more money he makes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on September 10, 2015, 10:38:01 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on September 10, 2015, 08:18:05 pm

He has a sort of Southern US kind of accent, I would say Georgia or Alabama, maybe Louisiana.

He is disrespectful to other people. Especially to those that clearly have a higher education than him.
This in itself is a sign of poor educational background.
So I consider this guy way beneath everybody who takes an scientific approach to this case.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on September 11, 2015, 12:06:57 am

Note that his video description mentions John Bedini, a rather well-known overunity quack (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/bedini-motor/msg560750/). I doubt the Batteriser guys really want to be associated with overunity...? But syyenergy7 seems to believe in overunity. ::)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/list-of-dodgy-crowd-source-funded-projects/msg483842/#msg483842 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/list-of-dodgy-crowd-source-funded-projects/msg483842/#msg483842)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/free-energy-scams-and-fakes/msg378754/#msg378754 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/free-energy-scams-and-fakes/msg378754/#msg378754)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-708-free-energy-bullshit (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-708-free-energy-bullshit)!/msg597289/#msg597289

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on September 11, 2015, 12:51:45 am

Quote from: amyk on September 11, 2015, 12:06:57 am

Note that his video description mentions John Bedini, a rather well-known overunity quack (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/bedini-motor/msg560750/). I doubt the Batteriser guys really want to be associated with overunity...? But syyenergy7 seems to believe in overunity. ::)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/list-of-dodgy-crowd-source-funded-projects/msg483842/#msg483842 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/list-of-dodgy-crowd-source-funded-projects/msg483842/#msg483842)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/free-energy-scams-and-fakes/msg378754/#msg378754 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/free-energy-scams-and-fakes/msg378754/#msg378754)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-708-free-energy-bullshit (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-708-free-energy-bullshit)!/msg597289/#msg597289

Why not? I think they are targeting a potential market in mentally insane and dumb people. They're perfect buyers of useless crap, aka Snake Oil.

Some of those conspiranoid leaders will (it already do) say Big Battery like Duracell are against this revolutionary product because it would make them lose profit. They'll create forums and videos about that, then form a network of pyramidal business like Herbalife

Batteroo Bros. would make conferences, books and events about that.

There's too much potential to swindle lunatics that believe in reptilians, ancient aliens, free energy and such.

They often suffer certain degree of unmanaged schizophrenia, but the leaders just ate psychopaths that use them. I knew many of them, they get obsessed about that mind of stuff.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Traxs on September 11, 2015, 02:16:16 am

"Batteriser Fan Page" posted 3 syyenergy7 videos to their youtube page... :palm:  |O

Grabbed a pic in case they pull them....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Stephan_T on September 11, 2015, 02:37:50 am

Quote from: jancumps on September 10, 2015, 03:27:14 pm

Quote from: McBryce on September 10, 2015, 03:21:20 pm

"15 miles from France"??? So they're from Belgium, Holland, Germany, Luxemburg or Spain???

Or does he mean some small US town called France?

McBryce.

Andorra, Monaco?

Are both too small to get 15 miles away from France.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: joseph.anand on September 11, 2015, 02:48:43 am

Quote from: Traxs on September 11, 2015, 02:16:16 am

"Batteriser Fan Page" posted 3 syyenergy7 videos to their youtube page... :palm:  |O

Grabbed a pic in case they pull them....

A man is know by the company he keeps. In this case the blog is know by the company it keeps.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 11, 2015, 03:54:24 am

Quote from: Traxs on September 11, 2015, 02:16:16 am

"Batteriser Fan Page" posted 3 syyenergy7 videos to their youtube page... :palm:  |O

Grabbed a pic in case they pull them....

I shouldn't be surprised by this, yet I am...

EDIT: I started the discharge test using the two boost converters that Jay mailed me but I doubt it'll be done by the time I have to leave for work tomorrow morning so perhaps tomorrow night I'll have some results to share.  I started earlier but had a brain fart and was attempting to measure voltage across both batteries as if they're in series, when in reality, they aren't--only the output is in series, so I ended up having to restart with fresh batteries.  I shouldn't do this type of stuff on low sleep  |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 11, 2015, 06:13:55 am

The newspaper article is happening:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=170594;image)

and the Batteriser CEO has made some "interesting claims" about me:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=170596;image)

Let's see if they defame me like the fan page did  :-DD

Naturally I'm not having a bar of it, classic case of trying to rake me into a mud fight so they can have a sensational story.
They can quote what I said on twitter, so they can't say I "declined to comment".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: neotesla on September 11, 2015, 07:30:51 am

Gosh, if I hate anything about modern-day journalism, it's their idea of "balance". So, say we're writing on homeopathy and the actual medicine - that means it's best to pitch the story somewhere mid-way, for "balance".

Cluelessness seem to be a prerequisite for journalism these days. :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 11, 2015, 07:51:42 am

Quote from: neotesla on September 11, 2015, 07:30:51 am

Gosh, if I hate anything about modern-day journalism, it's their idea of "balance". So, say we're writing on homeopathy and the actual medicine - that means it's best to pitch the story somewhere mid-way, for "balance".

Yep, another reason why I won't be part of it. Like writing an article on evolution and giving equal time to the creationists  :palm:
If it was just an article on the dislikes, and that was the angle (that this sort of thing can happen), then I probably would have been happy to contribute.
Batterisers claims do not get to sit on the same shelf as real engineering, unless they are willing to provide real engineering data. One could argue that with hindsight we shouldn't have even discussed it or did videos and blog posts on it. But of course it was way too on-topic for any of us to pass up. And now it's become this hilariously spectacular train wreck none of us can keep our eyes off!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 11, 2015, 07:53:18 am

Dave, I really think it would be better if you worked with the newspaper, they clearly want some technical (aka not marketing bollocks) input.  Give them a chance!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on September 11, 2015, 07:53:59 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 11, 2015, 06:13:55 am

The newspaper article is happening:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=170594;image)

and the Batteriser CEO has made some "interesting claims" about me:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=170596;image)

Let's see if they defame me like the fan page did  :-DD

Naturally I'm not having a bar of it, classic case of trying to rake me into a mud fight so they can have a sensational story.
They can quote what I said on twitter, so they can't say I "declined to comment".

I'm sure they are reading this forum too.

I smell a sensationalist journalism at it's best, disguised as objective and hearing to both parts, but brewing controversy instead conductive debate.

Obviously, journals love mud fights. Here in Spain political and yellow debates are becoming too popular, they are like a bunch of crazy dogs vowing each other.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on September 11, 2015, 08:11:36 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 11, 2015, 06:13:55 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=170596;image)

whoa, that sounds like 'better cooperate with me or ill shit on you in print' :/

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 11, 2015, 08:14:05 am

Quote from: Rasz on September 11, 2015, 08:11:36 am

whoa, that sounds like 'better cooperate with me or ill shit on you in print' :/

That's what I thought, too.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on September 11, 2015, 08:16:13 am

Quote from: neotesla on September 11, 2015, 07:30:51 am

Gosh, if I hate anything about modern-day journalism, it's their idea of "balance". So, say we're writing on homeopathy and the actual medicine - that means it's best to pitch the story somewhere mid-way, for "balance".

Cluelessness seem to be a prerequisite for journalism these days. :palm:

I think it's more like "legal ass-covering" - they don't want to take sides, lest they get sued too. The fact that reality does take sides, in this case against Batteriser, is immaterial to them. They just want to write a good story with the minimum of legal risk.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 11, 2015, 08:19:49 am

Quote from: amyk on September 11, 2015, 08:16:13 am

I think it's more like "legal ass-covering" - they don't want to take sides, lest they get sued too. The fact that reality does take sides, in this case against Batteriser, is immaterial to them. They just want to write a good story with the minimum of legal risk.

The thing is though, you can only get successfully sued for libel/defamation if you publish something that is deliberately untrue.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 11, 2015, 08:21:30 am

Quote from: Rasz on September 11, 2015, 08:11:36 am

whoa, that sounds like 'better cooperate with me or ill shit on you in print' :/

It did rub me the wrong way.
They have not told me nor asked about these "various claims", so if they print them and they are untrue, someone might be in a spot of trouble.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 11, 2015, 08:28:13 am

One of the main gripes throughout this debacle has been how so many media outlets just simply repeated Batteroo's marketing schpiel without doing any basic fact checking.  For the first time now, there appears to be a journo who wants to do just that, yet opinion is that Dave shouldn't do it? 😕

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 11, 2015, 08:37:56 am

Where did the above dialog occurred? I can;t find it on your twitter.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 11, 2015, 09:25:08 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 11, 2015, 08:21:30 am

Quote from: Rasz on September 11, 2015, 08:11:36 am

whoa, that sounds like 'better cooperate with me or ill shit on you in print' :/

It did rub me the wrong way.

My reaction is the same. It seems that this journalist was contacted by Batteroo, not the other way around.

They can run with this story, but they will have a hell of a time finding *anyone* with any credibility that will support Batteroo's claims. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 11, 2015, 09:32:06 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 11, 2015, 09:25:08 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 11, 2015, 08:21:30 am

Quote from: Rasz on September 11, 2015, 08:11:36 am

whoa, that sounds like 'better cooperate with me or ill shit on you in print' :/

It did rub me the wrong way.

My reaction is the same. It seems that this journalist was contacted by Batteroo, not the other way around.

They can run with this story, but they will have a hell of a time finding *anyone* with any credibility that will support Batteroo's claims.

Hey, Ms. Journalist! THIS is the real story here...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on September 11, 2015, 09:43:36 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 11, 2015, 08:21:30 am

Quote from: Rasz on September 11, 2015, 08:11:36 am

whoa, that sounds like 'better cooperate with me or ill shit on you in print' :/

It did rub me the wrong way.
They have not told me nor asked about these "various claims", so if they print them and they are untrue, someone might be in a spot of trouble.

Hi Dave:

Same here  ::)

"No Comment" is a perfectly rational response in my opinion. Your debunking videos say all that needs to be said regarding this issue.

Would love to find out what 'interesting things' the Batteroo CEO said about you. Whatever did you get up to in your 'Dramatic Arts' classes  ;)

Be sure to keep us all posted  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 11, 2015, 10:12:58 am

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on September 11, 2015, 09:43:36 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 11, 2015, 08:21:30 am

Quote from: Rasz on September 11, 2015, 08:11:36 am

whoa, that sounds like 'better cooperate with me or ill shit on you in print' :/

It did rub me the wrong way.
They have not told me nor asked about these "various claims", so if they print them and they are untrue, someone might be in a spot of trouble.

"No Comment" is a perfectly rational response in my opinion. Your debunking videos say all that needs to be said regarding this issue.

Ask her if she's seen all the videos, what she thought of them. Any remaining doubts? You'll be happy to clear them up.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 11, 2015, 10:22:21 am

Hannah, although perhaps well-intentioned, reports on 'new technology', which usually means the latest iPhone. She has no technical background whatsoever. She would probably have trouble identifying the positive side of a AA battery, never mind questioning Batteroo's wild claims.
She should first contact a qualified EE engineer in Melbourne, who would set her straight about how much energy is left in a spent battery, before writing an inane piece about the Batteroo and Dave 'controversy'.
I don't think that Dave needs to get involved at all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 11, 2015, 10:48:58 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 11, 2015, 10:12:58 am

Ask her if she's seen all the videos, what she thought of them. Any remaining doubts? You'll be happy to clear them up.

She wanted a phone call.
I said I was happy to answer any questions by email (so I have proof of the exact correspondence of course)
Haven't heard a peep.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bookaboo on September 11, 2015, 11:00:41 am

A journalist probably won't have a pre-set agenda going into something like this but will spin the story in whatever way they feel will generate click bait. I'd play ball but only via email.

Also, you have to give the general public a fools pardon when it comes to claims like this. It's possible to dismiss batteriser out of hand just using common sense, some basic engineering tests and calculations were needed to do that but joe public can't be expected to do or understand all that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 11, 2015, 11:14:07 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 11, 2015, 10:48:58 am

She wanted a phone call.
I said I was happy to answer any questions by email (so I have proof of the exact correspondence of course)
Haven't heard a peep.

I don't know, your tweets might have sounded a bit aggressive for her ("[write it and] embarrass yourself, silly claims"). Compare this to the slick CEO. I don't care, only facts count, but for many people the appearance is more important, as the success of the Indiegogo campaign demonstrates.

A phone call doesn't sound that bad. You can discuss with her the facts, it might help other people who otherwise would buy the Batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on September 11, 2015, 11:18:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 11, 2015, 10:48:58 am

She wanted a phone call.
I said I was happy to answer any questions by email (so I have proof of the exact correspondence of course)
Haven't heard a peep.

Always wise to keep an audit trail. She was probably just looking for a 'soundbite' that could be taken out of context.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on September 11, 2015, 11:22:14 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 11, 2015, 09:25:08 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 11, 2015, 08:21:30 am

Quote from: Rasz on September 11, 2015, 08:11:36 am

whoa, that sounds like 'better cooperate with me or ill shit on you in print' :/

It did rub me the wrong way.

My reaction is the same. It seems that this journalist was contacted by Batteroo, not the other way around.

They can run with this story, but they will have a hell of a time finding *anyone* with any credibility that will support Batteroo's claims.

hmm, maybe newspaper got the standard Buttsexizer PR blurb, but unlike many others instead of just reprinting or throwing it away someone actually googled, stumbled on Dave video and decided to make a story out of it.
Phone call is not that terrible if you also record.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 11, 2015, 11:25:07 am

Quote from: bookaboo on September 11, 2015, 11:00:41 am

It's possible to dismiss batteriser out of hand just using common sense, some basic engineering tests and calculations were needed to do that

No calculations are needed.

Just ask yourself a simple question: Why on earth would everybody be making devices that only use 20% of the battery? (Including big clever companies like Apple according to Batteroo!)

Is battery life not a selling point? Not even in things like flashlights...?

So what's more likely:
a) All the engineers employed in every company in the world are idiots compared to the Batteroo Brothers, or
b) Batteroo is stretching the truth?

Take a good look at the "engineer's workbench" in the Batteriser video before answering. It's all freshly unwrapped and obviously staged. Don't the Batteroo Brothers have an actual lab where they developed the Batteriser and made the prototypes? Why isn't it in the video?


Another simple question is: Why can't Batteroo make a simple video which shows two devices side by side running until they die? What mental process are required to make videos any more complicated than that?

Is it because:
a) Batteroo can't afford two monkeys/flashlights, or
b) They're hiding something?

(You can send those questions to Ms. Journalist, see what she thinks)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 11, 2015, 12:59:40 pm

The lab setup is hard to spot for untrained eye, there is a lots of complicated things on the table, so it looks genuine (for an untrained eye ONLY)

The Super Batteroo Bros World is made only of people that are not EE or at least EE aware.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 11, 2015, 01:18:49 pm

BTW, they're claiming the "UL Report" they've posted is "a screen shot posted from one of the pages in the UL report"

But they are still "in the process of working with UL to publish the full report"

 :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on September 11, 2015, 01:25:06 pm

Quote from: EEVBlag on September 11, 2015, 01:19:08 pm

…………………...- *" \ - "::*'\

oh please please let the IP this was posted from be from SK telecom again :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on September 11, 2015, 01:27:17 pm

Solved!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=170680;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daqq on September 11, 2015, 01:33:36 pm

Quote

[A crude ASCII drawing of a dong]

Batteriser, is that you?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 11, 2015, 01:36:14 pm

Quote from: daqq on September 11, 2015, 01:33:36 pm

Quote

[A crude ASCII drawing of a dong]

Batteriser, is that you?

Maybe that's where their sleeve is supposed to go?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on September 11, 2015, 01:36:31 pm

The final design drawings have leaked

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 11, 2015, 01:37:49 pm

I've reported all of these found post

Thanks Batteriser Fan Club for your so adultish manners!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on September 11, 2015, 01:41:44 pm

Quote from: jancumps on September 11, 2015, 01:36:31 pm

The final design drawings have leaked

Nah, it's a self portrait of their chief design engineer ;)

Though I strongly suspect another party was responsible for the recent spamming  ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 11, 2015, 01:44:13 pm

How do you add someone to the ignore list?!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 11, 2015, 01:44:45 pm

I guess the the post of eevblag is the official response of them.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: nessatse on September 11, 2015, 01:45:05 pm

>

Quote from: Godzil on September 11, 2015, 01:37:49 pm

I've reported all of these found post

Thanks Batteriser Fan Club for your so adultish manners!

Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions.  I suspect this is another user that was recently banned/deleted

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 11, 2015, 01:47:27 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 11, 2015, 01:44:13 pm

How do you add someone to the ignore list?!

Profile -> Modify Profile -> Buddies/Ignore list... -> Edit Ignore List

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Andy Watson on September 11, 2015, 01:48:08 pm

Quote from: nessatse on September 11, 2015, 01:45:05 pm

Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions.  I suspect this is another user that was recently banned/deleted[/size][/font]

Another user who, on more one occasion has claimed to have developed scripts to automate operations on these message boards.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on September 11, 2015, 01:49:04 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 11, 2015, 01:44:13 pm

How do you add someone to the ignore list?!

Profile -> Forum Profile -> Modify Profile -> Buddies/Ignore list -> Edit Ignore List

First time in my life I've ever had to use the function on any board I've ever been on.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on September 11, 2015, 01:52:01 pm

Quote from: Andy Watson on September 11, 2015, 01:48:08 pm

Quote from: nessatse on September 11, 2015, 01:45:05 pm

Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions.  I suspect this is another user that was recently banned/deleted[/size][/font]

Another user who, on more one occasion has claimed to have developed scripts to automate operations on these message boards.

Indeed, and if that turns out to be the case, I would imagine any remaining support they ever had from anyone will disappear.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 11, 2015, 01:54:08 pm

Hum you right, I tell that without any proof, but as it was on all the topic about this subject..

Anyway, sorry Big Batter Raiser Fan it was maybe not your fault.

And thanks for the ignore list, I was searching in the profile pages, but wasn't found, the menu to get there is not obvious

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on September 11, 2015, 02:09:11 pm

Oh, that's full of dicks! It seems they were draw with by some dickhead.

IP check, please. We want to have some fun. Are they from Vietnam?

If so: Good morning, Vietnam! ;)



---------  OFTOPIC ALERT---------
Ironically, this gives me lots of nostalgia. ASCII art is very funny, I like nicely done ASCII demoscene too. "Digital: A Love Story" was a great game involving retrocyberpunk stuff with using BBS and other very futuristic topics, I liked it. I really with there were more games like that, even more hardcore geek ones.

Unfortunately, the author went to the manga way, something usually bores me a lot (Satoshi Kon, I miss you). I also liked Ghost in The Shell and Planetes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 11, 2015, 02:20:12 pm

New sleeve design.... The Dickeriser!  :-DD

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=170684;image)

EDIT:  Are you confused?  :-// For those of you playing along at home who didn't view this thread in the past few hours, somebody (user "EEVBlag") posted a bunch of ASCII-art penises spamming the thread. They have since been removed. But that's why the thread suddenly derailed into dick jokes. Sorry for my bad Photoshop job.  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 11, 2015, 02:28:55 pm

Quote from: Delta on September 11, 2015, 07:53:18 am

... the newspaper, they clearly want some technical (aka not marketing bollocks) input.  Give them a chance!

Where did you read or hear that?
Why do you presume they have the right characteristics to be able to receive un-marketing details?

Magazines and journalists do not have the judgement power to decide what's true or not.
They are on the "Volt=Current, bad contact=short circuit and Power=Energy" side of the story, unless proven differently.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 11, 2015, 02:33:12 pm

Quote from: McCarthy on September 11, 2015, 02:21:00 pm

Damn, they must have small dicks.

It's AA's one, but they are also going to make a sleeve for AAA's one.

800% more hardness and power using that marvelous tool!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Simon on September 11, 2015, 02:47:43 pm

Quote from: daqq on September 11, 2015, 01:33:36 pm

Quote

[A crude ASCII drawing of a dong]

Batteriser, is that you?

no, the names chang, mojo chang.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on September 11, 2015, 04:56:24 pm

Quote from: samgab on September 10, 2015, 09:04:55 pm

I'm fairly sure I just got one of their standard form replies. I don't think she even read my email, just saw "G3... battery life... hmm, okay, send form letter on using NiMH or Lithium batteries."

I replied, pushing for an actual considered response:

Quote

"Thank you for your reply, I appreciate your time.
However, I find that my question hasn't been answered. I understand that the recommended cells are Lithium metal or NiMH and I understand the difference between Lithium metal primary cells and Lithium ion cells, however; the Approach G3 has an Alkaline setting, so it was clearly also designed with the ability to be run on those. Sometimes, for different reasons, the only batteries available are Alkalines, such as Duracell Power Plus, and my question was: How much battery life could reasonably be expected using Alkaline cells without the use of some device to boost the voltage? Is it less than 2 hours as claimed by the Batteriser people in their media campaign? Or about half a round of golf per set of Alkaline batteries?"

Their response is clearly the standard response. Garmin support is quite terrible. I had to deal with them a couple of times and they never seem to read your email the first time. When you report a problem and you clearly state that you have performed a factory reset and the latest firmware is installed they will still ask you to do a reset and a firmware upgrade....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 11, 2015, 05:15:39 pm

Quote from: meeder on September 11, 2015, 04:56:24 pm

Quote from: samgab on September 10, 2015, 09:04:55 pm

I'm fairly sure I just got one of their standard form replies. I don't think she even read my email, just saw "G3... battery life... hmm, okay, send form letter on using NiMH or Lithium batteries."

I replied, pushing for an actual considered response:

Quote

"Thank you for your reply, I appreciate your time.
However, I find that my question hasn't been answered. I understand that the recommended cells are Lithium metal or NiMH and I understand the difference between Lithium metal primary cells and Lithium ion cells, however; the Approach G3 has an Alkaline setting, so it was clearly also designed with the ability to be run on those. Sometimes, for different reasons, the only batteries available are Alkalines, such as Duracell Power Plus, and my question was: How much battery life could reasonably be expected using Alkaline cells without the use of some device to boost the voltage? Is it less than 2 hours as claimed by the Batteriser people in their media campaign? Or about half a round of golf per set of Alkaline batteries?"

Their response is clearly the standard response. Garmin support is quite terrible. I had to deal with them a couple of times and they never seem to read your email the first time. When you report a problem and you clearly state that you have performed a factory reset and the latest firmware is installed they will still ask you to do a reset and a firmware upgrade....

Yes true, but fortunately a different person responded very quickly to my followup email with a much better reply:

"Thank you for contacting Garmin International. I can help you here.

Quick question, are you planning on tapping on the screen of the device every 15 seconds like they do in the sample video?

If your answer is "yes" then I can say it may be likely that you can drain the batteries very quickly.

Under normal use however, the device will last 3 or possibly 4 rounds of golf before they are too drained. So 12 - 16 hours.

I've had a set of energizers in my G5 for months and it still has enough power for me to troubleshoot situations.

Finally, I don't think I have ever heard of Batteriser or Batteroo so I'm not sure I would find any claim from them towards another companies product to be of any value.



Let us know if you have any other questions. "

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 11, 2015, 05:34:37 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 11, 2015, 12:59:40 pm

The lab setup is hard to spot for untrained eye, there is a lots of complicated things on the table, so it looks genuine (for an untrained eye ONLY)

The Super Batteroo Bros World is made only of people that are not EE or at least EE aware.

OK, so don't look at the table. Just ask the questions.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 11, 2015, 06:53:14 pm

I have interesting results!  The discharge test of the gps unit using two boost converters (one for each AA battery) in series just finished.  It ran for 10 hours, which is almost exactly what batteroo got in their video using batteriser.  Very interesting!

I think the reason the AA's without boost converters ran for 17 hours if because the firmware dims the screen at a certain voltage for alkaline batteries, so it gets lower current draw for the last half of the battery, allowing it to go really long.  I think I might retest WITHOUT boost converters tonight, only I'll set the battery type to lithium in the firmware so that it doesn't dim the screen to give it an apples to apples result against batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 11, 2015, 07:06:41 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 11, 2015, 06:53:14 pm

I have interesting results!  The discharge test of the gps unit using two boost converters (one for each AA battery) in series just finished.  It ran for 10 hours, which is almost exactly what batteroo got in their video using batteriser.  Very interesting!

I think the reason the AA's without boost converters ran for 17 hours if because the firmware dims the screen at a certain voltage for alkaline batteries, so it gets lower current draw for the last half of the battery, allowing it to go really long.  I think I might retest WITHOUT boost converters tonight, only I'll set the battery type to lithium in the firmware so that it doesn't dim the screen to give it an apples to apples result against batteriser.

Good stuff. That is very interesting. Of course, the plebs at Batteroo would just refute any testing not using their device as irrelevant because of their magical uniquely designed chips, they claim. Of course, we know better. Even if you did testing with a real batteriser, they're refute that too, because of some little detail they'd pick on. Even though as you pointed out in your video, you're using equipment orders of magnitude better and more accurate that what they used.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 6581 on September 11, 2015, 07:06:56 pm

Thanks 5ky! Very interesting results indeed. Comparison with battery type set as lithium - yes please! That'd definitely give interesting data point.

Also thanks for the forum member that supplied those boost converters. Nice team work!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 11, 2015, 07:20:56 pm

Quote from: 6581 on September 11, 2015, 07:06:56 pm

Thanks 5ky! Very interesting results indeed. Comparison with battery type set as lithium - yes please! That'd definitely give interesting data point.

Also thanks for the forum member that supplied those boost converters. Nice team work!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No problem.  After doing this again on lithium mode with normal batteries I'll throw them into a quick video with the time lapses and upload it for all to see.

And thanks goes to Mr. Jay_Diddy_B for sending me the butterisers  :-+

EDIT: typos

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 11, 2015, 08:14:47 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 11, 2015, 06:53:14 pm

I have interesting results!  The discharge test of the gps unit using two boost converters (one for each AA battery) in series just finished.  It ran for 10 hours, which is almost exactly what batteroo got in their video using batteriser.  Very interesting!

I think the reason the AA's without boost converters ran for 17 hours if because the firmware dims the screen at a certain voltage for alkaline batteries, so it gets lower current draw for the last half of the battery, allowing it to go really long.  I think I might retest WITHOUT boost converters tonight, only I'll set the battery type to lithium in the firmware so that it doesn't dim the screen to give it an apples to apples result against batteriser.

Precisely.  This is not surprising, this is the expected result!

This GPS unit is ALREADY DESIGNED to maximize battery life!  The designers even went to the trouble of providing optimized settings for three different types of batteries.  Using an added boost converter will not add any battery life, it will always decrease it due to the additional losses in the unnecessary additional DC-DC boost converter.

The designers of the GPS intentionally added the feature which limited backlight usage on alkaline cells to maximize the battery life!  All that adding a Batterizier will do is defeat this intentionally engineered-in battery life extension which can already be accomplished with the settings provided on the unit if one really desires the backlight to stay fully functional at the expense of battery life!  :palm:

5ky, I would expect you to get, perhaps, 11-12 hours at best with the GPS set to a low-cutout, non-alkaline setting which disables the backlight power saving feature.  It should likely be just slightly longer than using the external boost converter to "fool" the GPS due to the reduced losses from not having an extra DC-DC converter in the power supply chain, only using the one which is already in the GPS.  This will really just depend on the exact cutoff voltages of the various DC-DC converters being tried, etc.

There seems to be every indication that the Batterizer folks know exactly what they're doing, how they're saying it and how misleading it all is to make some money.  This type of thing is not a new strategy, it is done all the time in many industries and often gives people who make honest products and breakthroughs a tough hill to climb for public acceptance.  This one is just ridiculously easy to dismiss as crapola by anyone who actually understands how this stuff works.

As for them now asking for feedback about what devices they should optimize for, etc. etc...  You would think this should have been done long before a claim to the mass media to have "solved" the horrible "wasted battery capacity" issue which doesn't really exist.  This is the kind of basic product project engineering that should go on long before anyone even goes for a patent but of course the patent system is now more used for something along the lines of "here's an idea nobody has patented before, lets patent it with a patent so broad that so nobody except us can ever produce anything like it without us still making money, even if it's a fundamentally flawed idea".  I'm sure this is not how the patent system was envisioned when it was created but it's also certainly not the first time this kind of thing has happened over the past, oh, couple hundred years...  :)  The concept of a DC-DC boost converter is not new, the design is somewhat obvious and the only thing they claim to have done is make one as a sleeve that a battery will snap into and still fit into most products.  I have a difficult time believing it's going to even fit properly into most products, but that's really their only properly possible claim.

The most useful kind of "Batterizer" would be one which changes the discharge curve of a NiCd or NiMH to mimic an alkaline battery to make them a drop-in replacement for an alkaline.  The rechargeable battery companies could even build that INTO these special rechargeable cells without any problem (they could shrink the actual cell size to make room for the electronics) kind of like a typical rechargable Lithium chemistry battery pack will have control electronics in it.  It can include short and deep-discharge protection, adjust the voltage output to vary like an alkaline so battery meters would still function, etc, etc.  Why the rechargable companies never did that already, I don't know, though with todays use of DC-DC converters in most devices that would benefit from that, it's really a moot point, there just aren't that many cases where it's necessary or desired.  This kind of idea should be obvious to anyone with basic understanding of the subject matter and so should be non-patentable, though various actual implementations could be protected by patents, industrial designs, etc. if new and novel.

This whole debacle is SO[/b] aggravating to watch for those of us "in the know!"  Grrrrrr....  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on September 11, 2015, 08:23:31 pm

Quote

I think I might retest WITHOUT ...

Li or NiMH? please  use the type with lower cut off. Thanks.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 11, 2015, 08:55:47 pm

Quote from: onlooker on September 11, 2015, 08:23:31 pm

Quote

I think I might retest WITHOUT ...

Li or NiMH? please  use the type with lower cut off. Thanks.

If i remember correctly, all three modes cut off at the same voltage.  The only thing that differs between lithium and nimh is the low battery warning level.  I may test first before I get it going to ensure that's really the case.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 11, 2015, 09:24:18 pm

From post #1320:

Quote from: 5ky on September 03, 2015, 01:05:07 am

alkaline:
2.61v brightness dims (with warning on screen)
2.31v low battery warning
2.11v powers off

lithium:
2.82v low battery warning
2.16v powers off (screen still max brightness)

nimh:
2.59v low battery warning
2.16v powers off (screen still max brightness)

You might want to double and triple check those for extreme accuracy, though...  :)

Batterizer seems to think nobody will notice the difference between when a low battery warning comes on (or just a a backlight battery-saver feature warning, FFS) and the actual runtime of the device.

Much of their gameplan seems to revolve around fooling people by delaying low battery warnings and fudging battery gauges to misleadingly show greater capacity than is actually remaining (like full capacity on an essentially dead cell,) etc. into thinking they've actually added significantly to the available, usable battery capacity when in actual fact they've essentially just disabled the battery gauge.  :palm:

Happy testing!  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on September 11, 2015, 10:06:05 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 11, 2015, 10:48:58 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 11, 2015, 10:12:58 am

Ask her if she's seen all the videos, what she thought of them. Any remaining doubts? You'll be happy to clear them up.

She wanted a phone call.
I said I was happy to answer any questions by email (so I have proof of the exact correspondence of course)
Haven't heard a peep.

Yeah, email sounds good.

I don't know anything about this magazine or the journalist but they typically care a lot about what their advertisers say. The batteriser people have obviously been able to bedazzle journalists before, considering the initial press release coverage. This journalist could be legit, but better not take any chances. If it's as someone said, she's normally doing puff pieces for new products but have no technical competence, then I would be very sceptical. And the batteriser people have shown they are not below sleaze tactics.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on September 11, 2015, 10:20:53 pm

Quote from: tree on September 03, 2015, 01:37:26 pm

Quote from: edy on September 03, 2015, 01:29:38 pm

It is interesting how the Batteriser Fan Page has access to Batterisers and signs their post "Batteriser Team" yet claims no association with Batteroo. And in their post to Dave offering a test kit (on his Maker Faire video no less) talk as if in the first person like they are from Batteriser. Yeah, they are very definitely very linked to Batteriser and have access to all the videos and inside information.

With respect to the test kit, why not do what EVERYONE ELSE has done which is send one in the mail to Dave Jones that crazy Aussie bloke, not Austria, and mail it to his mailbox PO Box. No strings attached. We don't need any video chat between Batteriser and Dave. We need a no strings attached Batteriser (or several Batterisers) in Dave's hands so he can independently test them, do a teardown and circuit analysis and review the merits of this product. I trust Dave to tell it like it is, and if the Batteriser has any usefulness in certain cases I am sure he will point it out.

It's obvious Dave tries to be as unbiased as possible. I think in the first debunking video he mentions that it might have uses in certain applications but those applications are far and few between. The biggest [technical] issue is their original claim of 800% more battery life which then changed to 80% more. The former being absolutely ridiculous and the latter also  ridiculous but to average Joe they perhaps thought it would seem "plausible". It might be a good product for incandescent flashlights for instance, but it will NOT give you 80% more battery life. If anything, it will ensure that you have constant brightness at the expense of reduced battery life. if they came out with a claim such as this I'm sure no one would care and we might have though it would have been a great product.

If anything Dave has been too nice. But then again, there's nothing to be gained from a "pie fight" with these guys, it's as the old saying says: never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 12, 2015, 12:25:08 am

Time was 9 hr 38 min from start until it shut off.  What's interesting is that even while using boost converters, the bare GPS without using the boost converters went almost nearly as low in voltage before it shut off, so I have a feeling if I re-run this with teh battery mode set to lithium (so the screen never dims), batteries will probably run longer due to avoiding the losses in the boost converters.  I'll probably test that tonight for fun.

Using boost converters (in series):
(http://i.imgur.com/MgFc4lkh.png)

Without boost converters:
(http://i.imgur.com/8qSwAaEh.png)

Link to the timelapse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJgvxJmCP6E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJgvxJmCP6E)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on September 12, 2015, 12:47:52 am

Great work! Boost converters reduce battery-life as predicted. Math, physics and data are all in agreement, who would have thought.:-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 12, 2015, 12:51:47 am

Wow. So after all that, we were correct and thermodynamics reigns victorious once again.  ::)

Title: Introducing...
Post by: drussell on September 12, 2015, 01:36:33 am

Sorry, I just couldn't resist...  <Sarcasm mode ENABLE!>

Quote

Introducing the Fuelerizer!!!

Are you tired of today's high gas prices and smelly, messy fill-ups?
Are you tired of that pesky "Low Fuel" light coming on all the time in your automobile?

Now with our patented Fuelerizer you can extend your car's range on a single fill-up by 80%, 5x, or even 800%!
Say goodbye to messy fill-ups and environmental impacts!  It works just like magic!

Independant lab tests agreed with our demonstration of driving our test car for a 200 kilometer round trip and the gas gauge still reading completely full when we returned.
The savings are virtually limitless!  We've proved it!

When asked how this amazing new breakthrough works and why this has never been done before, inventor and CEO of Fueleroo Corporation, Mr. I. Foolayou, stated "It's very complicated but simple enough for any university professor and serial entrepreneur like myself with hundreds of patents bearing my name to understand.  We don't break any laws of physics or common sense, we simply took today's standard fuel system wiring and minimalized it."

Pure genius!  Everyone should order one today at Fuelerizeme.com!

Of course, we all know the device is just one of those 3M "Scotch-Lock" connectors shorting the fuel sender wire that runs to the gauge and the low-fuel light wire to +12v battery power.  It does make the circuit shorter, so they've "minimalized it" all right and technically they're not lying, per se, but all they've really done is disable the gauge and make it always read full. 

People will, of course, eventually figure it out when they actually run out'ta gas but by then Mr. Foolayou will have mumbled something incoherent about "suckers" and moved on to a new venture, all while sipping some kind of slushy coctail on a vacation beach somewhere....

:palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 12, 2015, 02:25:02 am

And to think Batteriser was bad... This fuel saver is even worse! Very sad indeed that these crooks can go to work every day and swindle money from people.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 12, 2015, 02:35:25 am

Yeah, this sort of crap has been going on for ages:
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q160/lover_88/lover_88053/4_zps50021f94.jpg~original)
(http://www.seentvcanada.com/images/fuel-shark-lighter-plug-product-image.jpg)
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q160/lover_88/lover_88053/3_zpsfbc1380b.jpg~original)

Which is nuts because all it is, is a tiny 2200uF capacitor and an LED!
(http://kep.index.hu/1/0/597/5974/59747/5974726_bd201aef685013fd212b6b215c921d04_wm.jpg)

At the end of the day, Caveat Emptor is an individual's own responsibility.
But it's great that people like Dave try to give fair warning...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 12, 2015, 02:50:51 am

Meanwhile, back on topic...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 12, 2015, 02:52:31 am

Seeing all these crap products makes me mad, but mostly sad... Sad that for every Batteriser that you expose for bring a scam, you have 10x more types of garbage products out there that continue. It is an impossible task to challenge them all, and even if you did, people would still buy them and swindlers will continue to make a living.

So what has this entire Batteriser drama taught us (besides a nice refresher on proper electronics testing and measurement and battery and boost circuits performance).... Well, sadly, that we may as well just give up because if every one of these crap scammy product companies fight like Batteroo, it is just going to be too tiring.

We can discuss and debate it all in the forums, Dave can call it B.S. and do a video, but this going back and forth just gets pointless very quickly when you realize there is no way to argue with the scammers, and it is hard to reach the potential victims of the scam also. I guess caveat emptor is right.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on September 12, 2015, 04:05:45 am

Quote from: edy on September 12, 2015, 02:52:31 am

Seeing all these crap products makes me mad, but mostly sad... Sad that for every Batteriser that you expose for bring a scam, you have 10x more types of garbage products out there that continue. It is an impossible task to challenge them all, and even if you did, people would still buy them and swindlers will continue to make a living.

So what has this entire Batteriser drama taught us (besides a nice refresher on proper electronics testing and measurement and battery and boost circuits performance).... Well, sadly, that we may as well just give up because if every one of these crap scammy product companies fight like Batteroo, it is just going to be too tiring.

We can discuss and debate it all in the forums, Dave can call it B.S. and do a video, but this going back and forth just gets pointless very quickly when you realize there is no way to argue with the scammers, and it is hard to reach the potential victims of the scam also. I guess caveat emptor is right.

I think a cure to stupidity might solve it.

Telepathy, fast knowledge transfer, parallel thinking between many minds and all that sci-fi/New Age concepts becoming reality.

Until then, our biology sucks. We need urgently a brain upgrade.

Some people are able to be smart in some areas, but it learning abilities might become damaged or limited easily. Too much information, too much limitation.

Brainriser! Improve your brain by 800000%

Just put this specially engineered tinfoil hat with custom innovating technology. Your mind will be nearly limitless!

Buy one by just 80K US at Brainriser.com

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on September 12, 2015, 06:00:23 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 12, 2015, 12:25:08 am

Time was 9 hr 38 min from start until it shut off.  What's interesting is that even while using boost converters, the bare GPS without using the boost converters went almost nearly as low in voltage before it shut off, so I have a feeling if I re-run this with teh battery mode set to lithium (so the screen never dims), batteries will probably run longer due to avoiding the losses in the boost converters.  I'll probably test that tonight for fun.

[Some nice graphs not quoted here]

Link to the timelapse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJgvxJmCP6E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJgvxJmCP6E)

Nice data  :-+  :-+  :-+
Nice graphs   :-+  :-+  :-+
Data is so beautiful, so here are finally the voltages I have collected since the discussion has begun:

Whenever I get the chance to test a product's cut out voltage I do now, and I have only found one which a small chance that a Batteriser could improve the usability. But that's clearly due to a bad design decision.

So far:

Honeywell Rondostat Radiator Controller (2 AA) Firmware 2.04: 1.95-2.05V
Honeywell Rondostat Radiator Controller (2 AA) Firmware 1.xx (sorry forgot to note that down): 2.1-2.2V

Logitech Wireless mouse M705 (2 AA NiMH) 1.87V but starts to get weird around 2.0V
A cheapo crappy chinese "One-Hung-Lo" Mosquito heater pen (2 AAA) : 2.3V not really cut out, but heating up takes awfully long.
Clock, recently deceased battery (1 AA) : 0.78V, measured without load.

Remote for LG TV (2AA): This remote is badly designed IMO, the capacitor inside is too small and it takes high current spikes.
The µCurrent revealed it ;) Voltage under load (a spike) 1.6-1.7V while the batteries had 2.33V when idle.

Why I quote voltage ranges and not one voltage:
Sometimes I took several measurements under load, for instance when that radiator controller turned the motor on.
The voltage gets very noisy then and the values are jumping around a little.
I got the feeling that batteries that have been used for a long time (clock ore remote control) have a higher inner resistance than these who were used for one ow two months. However I didn't measure that, so that's just a guess.

All batteries were Alkaline, various brands but mostly VARTA.

Still to come:
A Surefeed RFID controlled cat feeder (prevents the other cat from stealing) : (4 C cells) : That thing is going for ages now, very impressed with that.
A PIR sensor controlled "get off the table, cat" compressed air spray can (4 AAA): Cat's are not naughty enough, so it's still going..
Dunno if it makes sense to also check the CR2032 from another remote

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 12, 2015, 06:14:22 am

Quote from: Chipguy on September 12, 2015, 06:00:23 am

Nice data  :-+  :-+  :-+
Nice graphs   :-+  :-+  :-+
Data is so beautiful, so here are finally the voltages I have collected since the discussion has begun:

Whenever I get the chance to test a product's cut out voltage I do now, and I have only found one which a small chance that a Batteriser could improve the usability. But that's clearly due to a bad design decision.

So far:

Honeywell Rondostat Radiator Controller (2 AA) Firmware 2.04: 1.95-2.05V
Honeywell Rondostat Radiator Controller (2 AA) Firmware 1.xx (sorry forgot to note that down): 2.1-2.2V

Logitech Wireless mouse M705 (2 AA NiMH) 1.87V but starts to get weird around 2.0V
A cheapo crappy chinese "One-Hung-Lo" Mosquito heater pen (2 AAA) : 2.3V not really cut out, but heating up takes awfully long.
Clock, recently deceased battery (1 AA) : 0.78V, measured without load.

Remote for LG TV (2AA): This remote is badly designed IMO, the capacitor inside is too small and it takes high current spikes.
The µCurrent revealed it ;) Voltage under load (a spike) 1.6-1.7V while the batteries had 2.33V when idle.

Why I quote voltage ranges and not one voltage:
Sometimes I took several measurements under load, for instance when that radiator controller turned the motor on.
The voltage gets very noisy then and the values are jumping around a little.
I got the feeling that batteries that have been used for a long time (clock ore remote control) have a higher inner resistance than these who were used for one ow two months. However I didn't measure that, so that's just a guess.

All batteries were Alkaline, various brands but mostly VARTA.

Still to come:
A Surefeed RFID controlled cat feeder (prevents the other cat from stealing) : (4 C cells) : That thing is going for ages now, very impressed with that.
A PIR sensor controlled "get off the table, cat" compressed air spray can (4 AAA): Cat's are not naughty enough, so it's still going..
Dunno if it makes sense to also check the CR2032 from another remote

And even with the random items that could potentially benefit from batteriser, you still have to accept the fact that you lose any battery level indicators in products, on top of the risk of your camera shutting off during a video record because you never got a low battery indicator.

And that's also assuming you use batteries WITHOUT batteriser until the device powers off, THEN put batteriser on, else you lose 10-30% through the losses in the batterisers.

Lots of variables, very little REAL information out of batteroo.  I'm very curious to see how the numbers look using the real deal once they're out. (if they ever ship)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on September 12, 2015, 06:48:43 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 12, 2015, 06:14:22 am

And even with the random items that could potentially benefit from batteriser, you still have to accept the fact that you lose any battery level indicators in products, on top of the risk of your camera shutting off during a video record because you never got a low battery indicator.

And that's also assuming you use batteries WITHOUT batteriser until the device powers off, THEN put batteriser on, else you lose 10-30% through the losses in the batterisers.

Lots of variables, very little REAL information out of batteroo.  I'm very curious to see how the numbers look using the real deal once they're out. (if they ever ship)

Exactly, think of the smoke detector scenario. It won't notify you that the battery is about to go. That's even dangerous.

When the thing was mentioned first I was like "oh, interesting, are there really so many products out there that do not use batteries up properly...hmmm"
Then the first test were conducted by Dave and others, so it went to "ok, in practice it is rather useless but it could work for some products".
Since I heard the price I am rather like "Let's see if they will ever get into production, I have my doubts, hopefully I'm wrong"
We will see if they gonna take the money, make some of them, even ship them and then declare bankruptcy. Won't be surprised.
They might even blame that on Dave  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on September 12, 2015, 06:54:21 am

Quote from: McCarthy on September 12, 2015, 06:44:44 am

Somebody should make a request at UL with the claimed UL Project Number: 4787059213.

http://ul.com/offerings/market-surveillance/ (http://ul.com/offerings/market-surveillance/)

Thats already been done earlier in this thread.
IIRC the internal project number has no public reference and UL wouldn't discuss it, or something like that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 12, 2015, 07:30:54 am

Frankie Roohparvar's initial brainstorm:
Do all EE Engineers draw ellipses like an 8-year old would?  ;)
Is this what 'Big Battery and the break-in' was about?  :o

(https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1437690229/ddigurrb8ezcnlm68xzs.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: wraper on September 12, 2015, 07:51:27 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 12, 2015, 07:30:54 am

Frankie Roohparvar's initial brainstorm:
Do all EE Engineers draw ellipses like an 8-year old would?  ;)

I don't think it's uncommon to draw something like this when you trying to figure out some rough idea. Though I personally won't publish such artworks of myself regarding to some product I intend to sell.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on September 12, 2015, 08:14:10 am

Quote from: edy on September 12, 2015, 02:25:02 am

And to think Batteriser was bad... This fuel saver is even worse! Very sad indeed that these crooks can go to work every day and swindle money from people.

Wouldn't that site be fake?
They are selling a €80 hose clip...
http://www.be-fuelsaver.net/en/shop/bio-energetic-emission-saver-ms/

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on September 12, 2015, 08:16:56 am

Quote from: Chipguy on September 12, 2015, 06:00:23 am

Whenever I get the chance to test a product's cut out voltage I do now, and I have only found one which a small chance that a Batteriser could improve the usability. But that's clearly due to a bad design decision.

I think I have one, a Logitech "Anywhere Mouse MX". (Two examples, as it happens... both behave the same).

It's a nice mouse, very smooth and accurate, but only when the AA batteries are fresh. As their voltage drops, it starts to become erratic, and the wireless range decreases. By the time they've dropped to 1.3V per cell, the mouse still "works", but it's no longer reliable enough... drag operations stop prematurely, movement is jerky, that sort of thing.

This means I end up changing the batteries at this point, even though there's plenty of energy left in them. Even more annoyingly, since this is above the voltage of a fresh pair of rechargeables, I'm stuck with using alkaline.

There's quite a lot of noise on the 'net about this model of mouse, and problems it has with clicking and dragging after a period of time. My personal experience is that the tendency to misbehave correlates with battery voltage, and at risk of attracting a degree of well-deserved flak, I'd quite like to try a couple of Batterisers to see if they help. In theory, I could stop using alkaline cells altogether, and instead use a set of low self-discharge NiMh cells, with Batterisers installed to boost the voltage.

It's perhaps also worth noting that the mouse is no longer in production. It's been replaced by a mk 2 version, which among other changes, has a built-in rechargeable battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 12, 2015, 08:26:44 am

I've been using the Logitech MX anywhere for a long time. My experience couldn't be more different from yours. Batteries last for ever and there are no glitches until the low voltage light comes on. I will measure drop out voltage and consumption later to see if it ties up with your figures.
(Logitech figures: cordless range 10 meters, battery life 7 months)

http://www.engadget.com/products/logitech/anywhere-mouse-mx/ (http://www.engadget.com/products/logitech/anywhere-mouse-mx/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on September 12, 2015, 09:05:49 am

OK, maybe I have a couple of defective mice, I wouldn't be at all surprised.

I was just suggesting that, given that I already have the mice, a cheap and easily installed device to keep the voltage up would actually be beneficial in my specific case. I'd try a battery booster before replacing them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 12, 2015, 09:07:29 am

Quote from: edy on September 12, 2015, 02:52:31 am

...
We can discuss and debate it all in the forums, Dave can call it B.S. and do a video, but this going back and forth just gets pointless very quickly when you realize there is no way to argue with the scammers, and it is hard to reach the potential victims of the scam also. I guess caveat emptor is right.

Caveat emptor, indeed, however, what dimays me the most about this type of situation is that years ago, when I was a child, at least, the media, the true journalists in the media, took it upon themselves to actually investigate this sort of thing before they actually reported on it.  Be it politics, new technology or some other topic, they would truly strive to do their research to attempt to bring you that latest breaking news the story, behind the scenes and below the surface before ever daring to actually publish it.  (I took a few classes in journalism many years ago and this was still the ideal at the time, at least, as well...)

These days, apparently any media outlet either just regurgitates whatever press releases and/or paid advertisements are placed in front of them (and often lately there seems to be an unfortunately thin line separating those categories with newsvertizing and edutainment ruling the roost lately) or is generally just beholden to some external kind of force, rather than real, true independant journalism.

We should all recognise that everyone in the general population will not understand the technical nuances of some particular subject but can at least help to steer the conversation in the direction of sanity, rational discussion on the merits and critical analysis.

There is a way to help disuade the scammers and educate the public and really it is our responsibility as members of the engineering community to ensure that the most possible information is made available to the widest possible audience.  Members of the "mass media" should be ashamed of themselves for many things in the past many years as they have traditionally been looked upon by the "general public" as an institution of integrity and a source of information on subjects that the average person may not be expected to be an expert on and have seemingly been trying to erode that historically hard-earned authority at an alarming rate.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on September 12, 2015, 09:08:25 am

turns out you can sue and win against scam crowdfunding campaign
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/253471/State_court_orders_Kickstarted_game_creator_to_pay_54k_for_failing_to_deliver.php (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/253471/State_court_orders_Kickstarted_game_creator_to_pay_54k_for_failing_to_deliver.php)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 12, 2015, 09:20:07 am

Glad to see that, in the US at least, crowd funding scammers can be taken to court.
I wonder if the scam artists would still be liable if the goods are delivered, but come short on effectiveness promises.
Perhaps that link should posted on Batteroo's site.  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 10:17:16 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on September 11, 2015, 11:14:07 am

A phone call doesn't sound that bad. You can discuss with her the facts, it might help other people who otherwise would buy the Batteriser.

Phone calls are always a bad idea when dealing with the press. There is no record of exactly what was said or the way it was said.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 10:20:12 am

Quote from: Galenbo on September 11, 2015, 02:28:55 pm

Magazines and journalists do not have the judgement power to decide what's true or not.
They are on the "Volt=Current, bad contact=short circuit and Power=Energy" side of the story, unless proven differently.

They also have no reason to doubt otherwise educated and reputable sounding designers. e.g. A PhD professor, 500+ patents, former CEO of big tech companies etc.
Technical people on the other hand know that only verifiable and reproducible data and best practices is what matters.
Doesn't matter who you are, you can be demonstrably wrong the next time you open your mouth. Science & engineering does not work on appeal to authority.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 10:25:32 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 12, 2015, 12:25:08 am

Time was 9 hr 38 min from start until it shut off.  What's interesting is that even while using boost converters, the bare GPS without using the boost converters went almost nearly as low in voltage before it shut off, so I have a feeling if I re-run this with teh battery mode set to lithium (so the screen never dims), batteries will probably run longer due to avoiding the losses in the boost converters.  I'll probably test that tonight for fun.
Without boost converters:
(http://i.imgur.com/8qSwAaEh.png)

And don't you just love those dips way below the product cutoff voltage, and wow!, what you know, the product didn't switch off!
Oops, just busted Batteriser "Technical" video that was all about those dreaded voltage dips  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on September 12, 2015, 10:27:10 am

Hi,
I would ask the Journalist to request a sample from Batteriser. Since they must have them, after all UL tested them and they submitted samples for EMC (FCC) testing.

It would be very telling if they could get an actual sample, not a press pack of PR.

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 10:33:25 am

Quote from: samgab on September 12, 2015, 02:35:25 am

(http://www.seentvcanada.com/images/fuel-shark-lighter-plug-product-image.jpg)

The designers of these products don't like being called out:
http://www.compendiumarcana.com/fuel_doctor_fd47/ (http://www.compendiumarcana.com/fuel_doctor_fd47/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 12, 2015, 10:39:12 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 10:25:32 am

And don't you just love those dips way below the product cutoff voltage, and wow!, what you know, the product didn't switch off!
Oops, just busted Batteriser "Technical" video that was all about those dreaded voltage dips  :-DD

Which is why they only ever posted the current graph of their gps test, even through they were also logging voltage...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 10:42:25 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 12, 2015, 06:14:22 am

Lots of variables, very little REAL information out of batteroo. 

I don't think Batteroo have ever released one single piece of technical information that is the least bit usable and credible?
And of course many of their claims they have had to revoke or revise  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 10:46:17 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 12, 2015, 07:30:54 am

Frankie Roohparvar's initial brainstorm:
Do all EE Engineers draw ellipses like an 8-year old would?  ;)
Is this what 'Big Battery and the break-in' was about?  :o
(https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1437690229/ddigurrb8ezcnlm68xzs.jpg)

That image is clearly a draft image for a patent. The numbered terms 101, 102 etc are a dead giveaway.
I don't know anyone who draws brainstorming images like that  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 10:48:27 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 12, 2015, 10:39:12 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 10:25:32 am

And don't you just love those dips way below the product cutoff voltage, and wow!, what you know, the product didn't switch off!
Oops, just busted Batteriser "Technical" video that was all about those dreaded voltage dips  :-DD

Which is why they only ever posted the current graph of their gps test, even through they were also logging voltage...

Of course, that would be, well, inconvenient!
The art of good BS is knowing what to leave out.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on September 12, 2015, 10:55:49 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 10:33:25 am

Quote from: samgab on September 12, 2015, 02:35:25 am

(http://www.seentvcanada.com/images/fuel-shark-lighter-plug-product-image.jpg)

The designers of these products don't like being called out:
http://www.compendiumarcana.com/fuel_doctor_fd47/ (http://www.compendiumarcana.com/fuel_doctor_fd47/)

The similarities are obvious...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on September 12, 2015, 11:01:45 am

My eyesight is rapidly deteriorating, has anybody tried those high definition sun glasses yet, they must be good to be on TV.

I have been evaluating a serious competitor to the Batteriser, it's called the Energizer Ultimate Lithium Battery. The packet says it lasts 7 times longer and the fresh unloaded voltage is around 1.80 volts so my Canon Powershort SX 100is camera is back in operation again on batteries, I posted about it previously somewhere and am hoping that if they become a bit more popular the price might start to drop. Also they are much lighter than regular batteries, approximately 14 grams compared to 24 grams for a Duracell Coppertop.


Disclaimer : I have no affiliation with any of the brands listed above, nor do I recommend Canon cameras that are meant to run on regular or rechargeable AA batteries but dont.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on September 12, 2015, 11:07:33 am

Hi,

The datasheet for the Energizer Ultimate Lithium Battery can be found here:

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf)

It looks pretty solid.

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Robyn on September 12, 2015, 11:44:07 am

Quote from: AndyC_772 on September 12, 2015, 08:16:56 am

Quote from: Chipguy on September 12, 2015, 06:00:23 am

Whenever I get the chance to test a product's cut out voltage I do now, and I have only found one which a small chance that a Batteriser could improve the usability. But that's clearly due to a bad design decision.

I think I have one, a Logitech "Anywhere Mouse MX".

I have  an expensive Sony radio with the same problem, it only works well with full batteries. When the voltage drops, noise gets very loud. With NiMh you can use it listen to strong fm signals, but listen  ssb in SW its to much noise to understand something. I'm not sure if the batteriser could help here, perhaps it makes to much noise itself.

 At other devices, like mechanic cameras, I see a problem, that voltage shut down to fast to give the device time enough to go in a safety position.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 12, 2015, 12:41:36 pm

Quote from: edy on September 12, 2015, 02:52:31 am

Seeing all these crap products makes me mad, but mostly sad... Sad that for every Batteriser that you expose for bring a scam, you have 10x more types of garbage products out there that continue. It is an impossible task to challenge them all, and even if you did, people would still buy them and swindlers will continue to make a living.

I think this what really caught the Batteriser Brothers by surprise - that anybody would actually question what they were doing.

I mean: They actually did some engineering compared to those other guys (sure, the math doesn't work but Batteriser is actually pretty good from a design/engineering viewpoint).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Joule Thief on September 12, 2015, 12:45:02 pm

Brainriser! Improve your brain by 800000%

Just put this specially engineered tinfoil hat with custom innovating technology. Your mind will be nearly limitless!

Buy one by just 80K US at Brainriser.com



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evlrs5Bi_6E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evlrs5Bi_6E)

:-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 12, 2015, 12:49:30 pm

Quote from: Chipguy on September 12, 2015, 06:00:23 am

Remote for LG TV (2AA): This remote is badly designed IMO, the capacitor inside is too small and it takes high current spikes.
The µCurrent revealed it ;) Voltage under load (a spike) 1.6-1.7V while the batteries had 2.33V when idle.

I wonder if a simple clip-on capacitor might actually be more useful than a batteriser? It would smooth out all those current spikes and keep the internal chemistry more stable.

The battery life extension from capacitors is very real in coin cells: http://www.ti.com/lit/wp/swra349/swra349.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/wp/swra349/swra349.pdf)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on September 12, 2015, 01:14:38 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 12, 2015, 07:30:54 am

Frankie Roohparvar's initial brainstorm:
Do all EE Engineers draw ellipses like an 8-year old would?  ;)
Is this what 'Big Battery and the break-in' was about?  :o

(https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1437690229/ddigurrb8ezcnlm68xzs.jpg)

Voltage regultor block VR1?

WTF???!!!!!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 12, 2015, 01:15:57 pm

Quote from: Circuiteromalaguito on September 12, 2015, 01:14:38 pm

Voltage regultor block VR1?

WTF???!!!!!

Yep. Batteriser voltage output is regulated (to 1.5V).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on September 12, 2015, 01:16:25 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 12, 2015, 12:49:30 pm

I wonder if a simple clip-on capacitor might actually be more useful than a batteriser? It would smooth out all those current spikes and keep the internal chemistry more stable.

Unfortunately, this only works for short pulses. Otherwise the caps get too big to fit into modern devices.
There are even capacitors designed exactly for this purpose:
http://www.avx.com/docs/catalogs/bestcap.pdf (http://www.avx.com/docs/catalogs/bestcap.pdf)

Did anybody try to simulate the the Batteriser mechanically by adding a small disk with 0.5mm thickness on top of a battery and insert this into some devices to see if it still fits?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 12, 2015, 01:20:41 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 12, 2015, 01:15:57 pm

Quote from: Circuiteromalaguito on September 12, 2015, 01:14:38 pm

Voltage regultor block VR1?

WTF???!!!!!

Yep. Batteriser voltage output is regulated (to 1.5V).

"regultor"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: wraper on September 12, 2015, 01:22:50 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 12, 2015, 12:49:30 pm

Quote from: Chipguy on September 12, 2015, 06:00:23 am

Remote for LG TV (2AA): This remote is badly designed IMO, the capacitor inside is too small and it takes high current spikes.
The µCurrent revealed it ;) Voltage under load (a spike) 1.6-1.7V while the batteries had 2.33V when idle.

I wonder if a simple clip-on capacitor might actually be more useful than a batteriser? It would smooth out all those current spikes and keep the internal chemistry more stable.

The battery life extension from capacitors is very real in coin cells: http://www.ti.com/lit/wp/swra349/swra349.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/wp/swra349/swra349.pdf)

2.33 V while not loaded batteries are almost empty. Also, of course there will be high current spikes as this is how IR remotes behave in general. Short pulses of up to few hundred mA through the IR LED(s). Usually capacitor inside of the remotes is in the region of 22-100uF.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 12, 2015, 01:40:56 pm

Quote from: Circuiteromalaguito on September 12, 2015, 01:14:38 pm

Voltage regultor block VR1?

WTF???!!!!!

You know that dyslexia is a pretty common thing? It doesn't say anything about how smart you are. Some of the great minds were dyslectic. So can we please stop throwing mud at simple spelling mistakes?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 02:19:19 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 12, 2015, 12:41:36 pm

I think this what really caught the Batteriser Brothers by surprise - that anybody would actually question what they were doing.
I mean: They actually did some engineering compared to those other guys (sure, the math doesn't work but Batteriser is actually pretty good from a design/engineering viewpoint).

My guess is it actually started out as a good idea, and then they simply got too invested in the idea, and more importantly, the idea of turning it into a patent/startup business, solving the packaging problem etc, than bothering (or simply not knowing how to?) to do the basic engineering and look to see if the basic premise was viable.
Just look at the amount of things that they have gotten wrong and have had to backtrack on. It's a long list of embarrassing oversights from their patent onwards that would have been fleshed out at the first prototype stage should they have done the required testing.
It seems fairly clear they only cared about the (otherwise excellent) packaging part.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 12, 2015, 02:45:36 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 02:19:19 pm

Just look at the amount of things that they have gotten wrong and have had to backtrack on. It's a long list of embarrassing oversights from their patent onwards that would have been fleshed out at the first prototype stage should they have done the required testing.
It seems fairly clear they only cared about the (otherwise excellent) packaging part.

My guess is the marketing got ahead of them and the tail started wagging the dog. Then dollar signs got in the way of their eyes, and rather being surrounded by independent engineers to return them to reality, they were surrounded by "Yes" men and non-technical people who just ran with the idea and blew it up into this product for every situation that does amazingly too good (8x no less, or is it 5x, or 4x, or 1.8x which is 80% more)?

 I mean, you couldn't well market a product with the slogan "run your device at full performance for half the time, in those cases where you need your back light or toy motor run at full power, and can't tolerate anything less". Just doesn't have the same marketing ring to it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on September 12, 2015, 02:46:46 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 02:19:19 pm

It seems fairly clear they only cared about the (otherwise excellent) packaging part.

Have I missed where it states the maximum current which the Batteriser can supply?

Ridiculous claims about capacity aside, I'll be genuinely impressed if they can actually squeeze a working dc-dc converter into approximately zero thickness. The only company I know that can actually do that is Enpirion, now part of Altera.

(For what it's worth, I've had over 10A out of a AA battery, albeit briefly, during fault condition testing. I wonder which dies first if a battery is installed in a device backwards; the battery itself, or the Batteriser?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: adprom on September 12, 2015, 02:59:46 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 12, 2015, 12:41:36 pm

I think this what really caught the Batteriser Brothers by surprise - that anybody would actually question what they were doing.

I mean: They actually did some engineering compared to those other guys (sure, the math doesn't work but Batteriser is actually pretty good from a design/engineering viewpoint).

First post on eevblog for me but I have been following the batteriser issue for a while (as well as watching eevblog vids). These are marketing capaigns designed to suck in as many people before release as possible. It sounds like they didn't bank on criticism or doubts coming before release which has really thrown them.

This appears to be a project managed hype excercise designed to get as many preorders through indiegogo as possible. As long as you don't release a product for people to test and trade on hype, you can suck in more people without ever being questioned...

Until dave bought attention to it of course...

P.S. The other thing I actually doubt is whether the number of funders is legit and whether it is real money. I have a funny feeling that indiegogo and a number of other crowdfunding platforms are susceptible to the equivalent of "bought likes" in terms of funders. It just adds to the hype.

As for the hand drawing - just more of the marketing con. In a real marketing campaign you would never have handwritten concepts because you have a real product that performs against some claim. In this case, the reverse tactic is being used in an attempt to generate authenticity so people look and think - "oh there is the genius at work on the back of a beer coaster drawing - it must be legit". Otherwise it is all too obvious that there nothing more to this than a slick (or not so slick) marketing campaign.

I am genuinely surprised how shallow the marketing campaign has been The smallest crack bought out the abuse on youtube, batteriser batteroo/"fan" accounts etc. They really didn't expect to have anything questioned before release.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: adprom on September 12, 2015, 03:03:49 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 02:19:19 pm

My guess is it actually started out as a good idea, and then they simply got too invested in the idea, and more importantly, the idea of turning it into a patent/startup business, solving the packaging problem etc, than bothering (or simply not knowing how to?) to do the basic engineering and look to see if the basic premise was viable.
Just look at the amount of things that they have gotten wrong and have had to backtrack on. It's a long list of embarrassing oversights from their patent onwards that would have been fleshed out at the first prototype stage should they have done the required testing.

I considered this - but the sleeve as it has photos of seems like a fair bit of effort has gone into it to miniaturise  and make it look nice (of course we don't know without a real product to feel). My first guess was that they were called out and simply got it wrong and are trying to stick with it. In fact, they may still believe the claims.

However, with the behaviour since and how the crowdfunding has been setup - I suspect they knew well before getting to the crowdfunding stage that the claims are BS. They have chosen to go with it anyway. The marketing has been too carefully designed to omit certain facts.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on September 12, 2015, 03:17:36 pm

Quote from: jippie on September 12, 2015, 01:40:56 pm

Quote from: Circuiteromalaguito on September 12, 2015, 01:14:38 pm

Voltage regultor block VR1?

WTF???!!!!!

You know that dyslexia is a pretty common thing? It doesn't say anything about how smart you are. Some of the great minds were dyslectic. So can we please stop throwing mud at simple spelling mistakes?

Yes, I know it. I know many engineers that are diagnosed dyslexia or have horrible mistakes at writing, probably undiagnosed ones.

But if I were aware of my disorder, I would find someone to proofread my stuff. And specially if I need to show my work to others.

These days there are effective therapies to reduce the dyslexia symptoms, not sure if it can be totally fixed but at least improved a lot.

I have a friend that is industrial engineer that has dyslexia, so he does most of his stuff at the computer and uses a spell checking software to write. He even learned five languages and is fluent at three of them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 12, 2015, 03:33:14 pm

Quote from: AndyC_772 on September 12, 2015, 02:46:46 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 02:19:19 pm

It seems fairly clear they only cared about the (otherwise excellent) packaging part.

Have I missed where it states the maximum current which the Batteriser can supply?

Apparently so!

It's in the Batteriser FAQ, on their web page.

Quote from: AndyC_772 on September 12, 2015, 02:46:46 pm

Ridiculous claims about capacity aside, I'll be genuinely impressed if they can actually squeeze a working dc-dc converter into approximately zero thickness.

I had doubts about that, too, but there really are off-the-shelf components that can do it:

eg. 2mm x 2mm x 0.5mm DC booster:

http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/ADP1607.pdf (http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/ADP1607.pdf)

Matching 2mm x 1.6mm x 1mm inductor:

http://product.tdk.com/en/catalog/datasheets/inductor_commercial_power_mlp2016_en.pdf (http://product.tdk.com/en/catalog/datasheets/inductor_commercial_power_mlp2016_en.pdf)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on September 12, 2015, 03:38:14 pm

Quote

At the end of the day, Caveat Emptor is an individual's own responsibility.
But it's great that people like Dave try to give fair warning...

I don't get this defeatist attitude.

If I buy a package of milk at a store I shouldn't have to worry about whether there actually is milk in it or not. If I buy a 12 MPixel camera there should be at least 12 million pixels on the sensor. If I buy a battery labeld as 12 Ah, there should be at least 12 Ah in it when new. If I buy a gadget claiming to extend battery life and save the environment, then it better extend battery life and save the environment.

Makes me think about the Chinese company that added melamine to milk powder a couple of years ago, lots of people died. ( http://www.who.int/csr/media/faq/QAmelamine/en/ (http://www.who.int/csr/media/faq/QAmelamine/en/) )

Batteriser might be small fry, but it's definitely not only up to the individual to ensure the claims a seller make are true.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 12, 2015, 03:46:33 pm

Quote from: McCarthy on September 12, 2015, 03:43:42 pm

If such a 'successful' team, one of them holding 500 patents, needs a $30,000 kick starter founding for a product worth $2,50 in retail, you know exactly what’s going on.

FTFY.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on September 12, 2015, 04:00:46 pm

Quote from: AndyC_772 on September 12, 2015, 02:46:46 pm

Have I missed where it states the maximum current which the Batteriser can supply?

To the best of my knowledge no claims have been made about how much current the Batteriser can supply.

The Garmin GPS that has been mentioned in the testing needs around 150-200mA based on the run time that forum member 5ky measured.

A digital camera running from 2x AA cells would need a peak current of around 1A. The 1A current has been measured in some of the Batteriser videos, but there has never been a demonstration of a digital camera running from AA with the Batteriser. Since the majority of Digital cameras use rechargeable Li-ion this is a mute point.

A survey of available ICs for this job suggests that 500mA may be possible. The switches in the IC would be handling twice about twice the output current. The space limitations also limit the inductor to about 2A. The inductor needs to be around 2uH.

Other people have suggested that the IC is the Analog Devices ADP1607.

Here is the published efficiency curve from the ADI datasheet:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=170834;image)

It would have difficulty doing 500mA even from a 1.2V source.

There are two reasons that this is likely to be the chip that was used on the prototype:

1) This part has a minimum output voltage of 1.8V The chip needs the output voltage to operate itself after start up. The 1.8V has been mention in the Batteriser videos.

2) The part will fit a picture of a board layout shown in the Batteriser campaign.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=170836;image)

The inductor that was used by ADI to get the datasheet graphs is too large for the space at the end of an AA cell.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=170838;image)


Sooner or later you run into the maximum power theorem. Given the ESR of an AA battery is around 0.2 Ohms, maximum power would be delivered into a 0.2 Ohm load.

The maximum power would be:

(V_oc/2)² / 0.2 = 2.5W which is about 2W into the load given the estimated boost converter efficiency around 80%.

There will be proportional problems for different size cells.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Psycho on September 12, 2015, 04:08:27 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on September 12, 2015, 04:00:46 pm

Quote from: AndyC_772 on September 12, 2015, 02:46:46 pm

Have I missed where it states the maximum current which the Batteriser can supply?

Batteriser FAQ (http://batteriser.com/faq/)

Quote

No, the Batteriser sleeve is designed to deliver as much current as a battery is able to supply to the device.

:palm:

 :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on September 12, 2015, 04:12:46 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 12, 2015, 03:46:33 pm

Quote from: McCarthy on September 12, 2015, 03:43:42 pm

If such a 'successful' team, one of them holding 500 patents, needs a $30,000 kick starter founding for a product worth $2,50 in retail, you know exactly what’s going on.

FTFY.

...precisely, and that figure won't fund the salaries and expenses of their board for anywhere near a month, let alone fund any development, testing, certification, tooling etc.

Well, now they have VC interest on the board, it might cover a few boozy lunches and rounds of golf I suppose. Just shows how broken the VC industry is, his sum total of due diligence before accepting the appointment must've been, er, approximately zero.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 12, 2015, 04:52:56 pm

They have stated that the Batteriser can supply as much current as the battery can deliver (i.e. it won't ever be an issue). Which means it can do ~10 A, that's what my varta batteries read when I short them with my DMM.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 12, 2015, 04:53:08 pm

As I said before. Me senses tell they were aiming for the million target.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on September 12, 2015, 04:57:43 pm

Technically speaking, earlier I made metion of a particular battery that when new has an unloaded voltage of around 1.80 volts, and if or when the Batteriser sleeve ever becomes available what would be the likely outcome if poor old Joe average decided that by using these batteries with 7X longer life in conjunction with a sleeve with the promoted 8X additional longevity could he then expect to get 15 times longer battery life than a regular cell or would the sleeve have a detrimental effect on these lithium cells by dragging them down to the nominated 1.50 volt as indicated, or is there a risk that the sleeve could raise the output voltage of a cell above the 1.80 which for AAs is already at the top end as far as I am aware. These and many other scenarios need to be well thought out beforehand.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 12, 2015, 05:36:42 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on September 12, 2015, 04:00:46 pm

The inductor that was used by ADI to get the datasheet graphs is too large for the space at the end of an AA cell.

True, but the datasheet has a whole list of suitable inductors (with part numbers). Some of them are really tiny.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on September 12, 2015, 05:44:11 pm

So what happens if you mom puts one of those x.risers on rechargeable batteries in her lovely camera, then without obviously having a clue what this thingy is, connects the camera to the charger. Has it been discussed here? Sorry if I missed that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on September 12, 2015, 06:13:05 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 12, 2015, 05:36:42 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on September 12, 2015, 04:00:46 pm

The inductor that was used by ADI to get the datasheet graphs is too large for the space at the end of an AA cell.

True, but the datasheet has a whole list of suitable inductors (with part numbers). Some of them are really tiny.

It is possible, but smaller inductors have either a higher DC resistance and therefore more losses or can handle only low currents because the ferrite core saturates.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 12, 2015, 06:48:52 pm

If you look at the datasheets, it is just the opposite (TDK  MLP2016 2016 [0806 inch]) :
Small inductor = small DC resistance
Small inductor = higher current

For instance:
2.2uH    2MHz   0.11 Ohm   1200mA max
4.7uH    2MHz   0.16 Ohm   1100mA max

To increase the output voltage, a bigger inductor is needed, with fast diminishing returns, as the inductance increases. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on September 12, 2015, 07:00:03 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 12, 2015, 06:48:52 pm

If you look at the datasheets, it is just the opposite (TDK  MLP2016 2016 [0806 inch]) :
Small inductor = small DC resistance
Small inductor = higher current

For instance:
2.2uH    2MHz   0.11 Ohm   1200mA max
4.7uH    2MHz   0.16 Ohm   1100mA max

To increase the output voltage, a bigger inductor is needed, with fast diminishing returns, as the inductance increases.

Yes, but we were talking about mechanical size, not inductance.
If you look at the graph, the 4.7uH version has lost half the inductance at 350mA. So the maximum output current will be very low. The 2.2uH is probably the better choice.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 12, 2015, 07:00:53 pm

Quote from: Bud on September 12, 2015, 05:44:11 pm

So what happens if you mom puts one of those x.risers on rechargeable batteries in her lovely camera, then without obviously having a clue what this thingy is, connects the camera to the charger. Has it been discussed here? Sorry if I missed that.

Ummmm, no. I don't believe it has.

Does that even exist? What if people do it to alkalines?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 12, 2015, 07:46:04 pm

Quote

FCC Compliance Update:
Our team has been receiving a lot of emails about FCC compliance. The good news is that we have completed the testing and passed the FCC compliance to the Following Standards:
FCC Part 15 Subpart B Section 15.109
The test report that we received bears the accreditation symbol indicating that the
testing performed meets the test and reporting requirements
of ISO/IEC 17025 under the applicable scope of EMC testing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 12, 2015, 07:49:10 pm

Is that FCC process expensive?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on September 12, 2015, 08:01:02 pm

The juce is in the "applicable scope of EMC testing", which means interferrence measured in relation to receiver/transmitter external to the device under test and at a specified distance from it. I am curious to see how much this thingy not cause interferrence  when installed in my portable ham radio handheld on receive, and not be affected when the radio goes on transmit. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 09:42:27 pm

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on September 12, 2015, 07:46:04 pm

Quote

FCC Compliance Update:
Our team has been receiving a lot of emails about FCC compliance. The good news is that we have completed the testing and passed the FCC compliance to the Following Standards:
FCC Part 15 Subpart B Section 15.109
The test report that we received bears the accreditation symbol indicating that the
testing performed meets the test and reporting requirements
of ISO/IEC 17025 under the applicable scope of EMC testing.

It was only a few weeks ago that Bob himself said FCC testing was not required.
They got that done quick, which is possible I believe.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 12, 2015, 10:32:19 pm

An EMC test can be done in a few hours for such a simple product. I was once at a TÜV facility in Cologne to see how a product was tested which I helped developing:

http://www.tuev-sued.de/industry-and-consumer-products/-services/electromagnetic-compatibility-emc (http://www.tuev-sued.de/industry-and-consumer-products/-services/electromagnetic-compatibility-emc)

The EMC chamber has a heavy door, like a bank safe, antennas can be moved remote controlled from outside and there was a wall of expensive Rohde and Schwarz scopes, spectrum analyzers, function generators etc. outside.

The tricky part is when the test fails. They have a large collection of ferrite rings and other EMC accessories for quick fixes, but if this doesn't help, a few kEuro are lost for the test cost and you have to rework your product, which might need some weeks, and then test it again. The Batteriser guys are lucky that they passed the test just before shipping.

PS: the ISO/IEC norms requires to use the product in a typical application and that you specify any special required hardware, like "tested with high quality shielded cables of manufacturer x". Would be interesting to read the full report. If they would test it with probes the monkey, I doubt it would pass the FCC requirements, because of high current spikes, unshielded battery and maybe cheap motors.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 10:44:11 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on September 12, 2015, 10:32:19 pm

Would be interesting to read the full report.

The odds of them releasing that are about the same as them releasing the UL test report.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 10:51:54 pm

Quote from: McCarthy on September 12, 2015, 03:43:42 pm

If such a 'successful' team, one of them holding 500 patents, needs kick starter founding for a product worth $2,50 in retail, you know exactly what’s going on.

They don't. Bob himself got a massive payout (after fighting for it) when he got sacked from being CEO of his former company (details on the forum), same month he formed Batteriser. More than what they got from this Indiegogo campaign.
Smart people don't use their own money though if they can avoid it, Bob is smart.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 10:53:18 pm

Quote from: firewalker on September 12, 2015, 04:53:08 pm

As I said before. Me senses tell they were aiming for the million target.

Obviously.
They are backed by a big VC company, $330K is chump change.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 12, 2015, 11:01:54 pm

Quote

FCC Compliance Update:
Our team has been receiving a lot of emails about FCC compliance. The good news is that we have completed the testing and passed the FCC compliance to the Following Standards:
FCC Part 15 Subpart B Section 15.109
The test report that we received bears the accreditation symbol indicating that the
testing performed meets the test and reporting requirements
of ISO/IEC 17025 under the applicable scope of EMC testing.

I think this is like their VI vs T chart.  Note: "accreditation symbol"   A real report will use words.  My guess it is an unpaid invoice (before the lab will do the test) that they are referencing to and the FCC symbol is on the labs forms indicating the lab can do FCC testing. 

If you read this carefully - it is double talk

Edit: corrected quotes

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 13, 2015, 12:58:54 am

As much as their reputation may have been tarnished for mostly the English-speaking Web, do you think they still have a chance to sell millions of these in other countries? Are there Chinese or Korean or Iranian or Russian sites and media that could help them launch sales there? There is a huge non-English world out there with Internet that may not have access to translations of the YouTube debunking videos and articles, so if they go into those markets and not have anyone equivalent to Dave Jones to point out the fraud, they have another chance to start.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 13, 2015, 01:05:15 am

Hopefully not, but I'm sure they'll sell a ton anyway.  |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 13, 2015, 01:46:42 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 10:53:18 pm

Quote from: firewalker on September 12, 2015, 04:53:08 pm

As I said before. Me senses tell they were aiming for the million target.

Obviously.
They are backed by a big VC company, $330K is chump change.

It's worth noting that SK has a $1M USD cap on its funding, which includes "services" and other intangibles. It's definitely not $1M cash.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 13, 2015, 01:53:34 am

Well if they were idiots in asking for FLEXIBLE Funding and setting their funding goal too low (in order to "brag" and create a sense of over-funding delirium) and they really needed $2 million to make this happen, there is no way they will deliver to backers. So either they refund the money now, or walk away with it and have a bunch of angry backers chasing them. Or they keep dragging out the campaign and delay delivery until they scrounge up enough money to make this happen.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on September 13, 2015, 02:09:44 am

I think all the "defeatists" should relax a little. It is not in the control of the forum members as to how their business will develop.

What we can do is to discuss the merits and demerits of their design and business practice. If we are having fun by such discussions and, at the some time, get more people to recognize the scam nature of their product, we should smile.

Besides, if this is really something that can sell in other countries, clones with much lower prices will popup in no time. It should be a lot easier to clone a bad product since one can hardly do worse.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 13, 2015, 02:42:45 am

Quote from: onlooker on September 13, 2015, 02:09:44 am

I think all the "defeatists" should relax a little. It is not in the control of the forum members as to how their business will develop.

What we can do is to discuss the merits and demerits of their design and business practice. If we are having fun by such discussions and, at the some time, get more people to recognize the scam nature of their product, we should smile.

It's worth talking about what it really takes capital-wise to start one of these ventures.  There's a bunch of business practices in the crowdfunding market that need to be addressed.  Undercapitalization is a major issue - as is an over-ambitious goal.  The Batteriser really is a series of teachable moments from many different aspects of designing, building, and selling a consumer-oriented electronics product:  thermodynamics, battery chemistry, low-battery cutoff techniques, boost-converter design, "napkin estimation," component price negotiation, custom manufacturing, tooling, marketing, seeking capital, retail distribution, and probably a lot more that I've missed. 

Batteroo really nailed the marketing and distribution channels out of the chute.  You have to admire them for that.  The industrial design is fairly slick as well, it just is going to have manufacturability issues. 

It's rare to get to watch something like this run its course from start to finish.  So, as long as the discussion is mature and objective, these things are worth talking about. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Davey_Jonez on September 13, 2015, 04:38:25 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 10:25:32 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 12, 2015, 12:25:08 am

Time was 9 hr 38 min from start until it shut off.  What's interesting is that even while using boost converters, the bare GPS without using the boost converters went almost nearly as low in voltage before it shut off, so I have a feeling if I re-run this with teh battery mode set to lithium (so the screen never dims), batteries will probably run longer due to avoiding the losses in the boost converters.  I'll probably test that tonight for fun.
Without boost converters:
(http://i.imgur.com/8qSwAaEh.png)

And don't you just love those dips way below the product cutoff voltage, and wow!, what you know, the product didn't switch off!
Oops, just busted Batteriser "Technical" video that was all about those dreaded voltage dips  :-DD

I believe the test fail is either when it shut off or shows the error message about the back light. When did the back light error come up?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Davey_Jonez on September 13, 2015, 04:39:54 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 12, 2015, 10:17:16 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on September 11, 2015, 11:14:07 am

A phone call doesn't sound that bad. You can discuss with her the facts, it might help other people who otherwise would buy the Batteriser.

Phone calls are always a bad idea when dealing with the press. There is no record of exactly what was said or the way it was said.

Sounds more like chicken shit. Cannot discuss anything without your blog goons?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 13, 2015, 04:48:11 am

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 13, 2015, 04:38:25 am

I believe the test fail is either when it shut off or shows the error message about the back light. When did the back light error come up?

Its not an "error" message  :-DD

And it was after about 6.5 hours.

Of course, I always turn my phone off when the battery indicator drops one bar, isn't that the normal thing to do?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: adprom on September 13, 2015, 05:11:01 am

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 13, 2015, 04:39:54 am

Sounds more like chicken shit. Cannot discuss anything without your blog goons?

Want to elaborate on that? The immature response in each of your posts seems oddly familiar to the batteriser 'fans'

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 13, 2015, 05:51:16 am

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 13, 2015, 04:38:25 am

I believe the test fail is either when it shut off or shows the error message about the back light. When did the back light error come up?

There is no error message.  It's the interface letting you know that it's dimming the backlight to help extend battery life.  That's a feature.  You can easily disable it by setting battery type to lithium or nimh (even when you're actually using alkalines).  And what's funny is that the backlight message didn't even show up until about the 7 hour mark.  I'm still wondering how "used" those AA's were that batteroo used to get their GPS to get to that message after only 2 hours?

Oh, and now that I've tested using boost converters similar to what the batterisers will be using, I'm retesting (almost done) using duracells without boost converters WITH battery type set to lithium to bypass the screen dimming, and it's at 9 hr 30 min and still has ~150 mV to go before cutoff.  The test using a boost converter per cell only went 10 hours, so it's already safe to say that the Garmin Approach G3 GPS unit actually gets slightly shorter battery life using batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on September 13, 2015, 06:02:14 am

Quote from: edy on September 13, 2015, 12:58:54 am

they still have a chance to sell millions of these in other countries?

They do not need to. Mark my words: most of sales will be right in the US.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 13, 2015, 06:13:30 am

Quote from: Bud on September 13, 2015, 06:02:14 am

Quote from: edy on September 13, 2015, 12:58:54 am

they still have a chance to sell millions of these in other countries?

They do not need to. Mark my words: most of sales will be right in the US.

Yep. Just get it next to the checkouts at Walmart and watch what happens...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 13, 2015, 06:21:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 06, 2015, 09:53:09 am

Hey Davey_Jonez
For the record, who are you?
Are you in any way associated with Batteriser, Batteroo, or the "Fan Page", or do you know them?

I see this username has ignored your question here.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 13, 2015, 06:35:45 am

5ky when you finish your exotic testing and if you have a LED flashlight that uses 2 AA batteries could you take 4 new alkaline batteries and run 2 until shutoff without your circuit and 2 with your circuit.

This is a major use I have for AA batteries. 

thanks

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 13, 2015, 06:40:26 am

Quote from: ez24 on September 13, 2015, 06:35:45 am

5ky when you finish your exotic testing and if you have a LED flashlight that uses 2 AA batteries could you take 4 new alkaline batteries and run 2 until shutoff without your circuit and 2 with your circuit.

This is a major use I have for AA batteries. 

Most LED flashlights will already have boost converters in them. Plus they'll be optimized for the particular LED.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on September 13, 2015, 06:45:03 am

Quote from: samgab on September 13, 2015, 06:21:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 06, 2015, 09:53:09 am

Hey Davey_Jonez
For the record, who are you?
Are you in any way associated with Batteriser, Batteroo, or the "Fan Page", or do you know them?

I see this username has ignored your question here.

It's pretty obvious that this user is associated with them in some way.
However no one will take this user seriously since the choice of name and the wording of comments could not be worse.
That user has either to reveal his/her real name if it's one of the Batteriser team or his/her association by changing the username to Batteroo or whatever.
All I see shows the signs of a underage kid, trying to cause some trouble and hiding behind stupid nicknames.
Most likely it's one of the kids from the people involved in that company, trying to "help" out with public receiption.
Doesn't really work, does it  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 13, 2015, 06:57:01 am

I believe he is one of the Roohparvars.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on September 13, 2015, 07:01:23 am

Quote from: firewalker on September 13, 2015, 06:57:01 am

I believe he is one of the Roohparvars.

Alexander.

Same here

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 13, 2015, 07:08:12 am

Quote

Most LED flashlights will already have boost converters in them. Plus they'll be optimized for the particular LED.

yes but still the flashlight dies.  If the device would fit and make the flashlight last longer then I would say it does its job.  At least 5ky could say if the flashlight would stay on longer (from full new battery turn on to OFF)

thanks

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 13, 2015, 07:17:03 am

Quote from: ez24 on September 13, 2015, 07:08:12 am

Quote

Most LED flashlights will already have boost converters in them. Plus they'll be optimized for the particular LED.

yes but still the flashlight dies.  If the device would fit and make the flashlight last longer then I would say it does its job.  At least 5ky could say if the flashlight would stay on longer (from full new battery turn on to OFF)

thanks

I'll pick one up tomorrow and will do some testing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 13, 2015, 07:36:04 am

Even the cheapest flashlight LED driver I found when googling claims to work down to 0.9V on a cell: https://www.fasttech.com/products/1612/10001715/1134800 (https://www.fasttech.com/products/1612/10001715/1134800)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on September 13, 2015, 08:09:15 am

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on September 13, 2015, 07:36:04 am

Even the cheapest flashlight LED driver I found when googling claims to work down to 0.9V on a cell: https://www.fasttech.com/products/1612/10001715/1134800 (https://www.fasttech.com/products/1612/10001715/1134800)

I just tested a brand new LED-Lenser (German manufacturer) flashlight and it still works at 0.46 V It is pretty dim at that time but it still works. I don't think that the batterizer would be able to improve this flashlight.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 13, 2015, 08:19:29 am

Yeah me too. And a runtime test isn't the only way to test. Another way is to take the cells out after your item won't run any longer, and test discharge the cells to see how much energy is still remaining in them.
I have a 4xAA LED flashlight I've been testing, a Sunwayman D40A (http://www.sunwayman.com/fo/pd_1_en.html) (excellent flashlight by the way (http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?364639-Sunwayman-D40A-(XM-L2-4xAA)-Review-RUNTIMES-BEAMSHOTS-VIDEO-more)), and after it no longer runs, I've tested the cells in a discharge test. It leaves no capacity in the cells. About 7mAh from all 4 combined in one test cycle, and zero measurable remaining capacity from another cycle.
Also, I recommend getting eneloop (http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Eneloop%20AA%20BK-3HCC%202450mAh%20(Black)%20UK.html) Low Self Discharge NiMH cells instead of using Alkalines.  :-+
(http://i.imgur.com/26DHMKV.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 13, 2015, 08:46:37 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 13, 2015, 01:05:15 am

Hopefully not, but I'm sure they'll sell a ton anyway.  |O

Yep, I'm sure they'll sell a ton too.
Even if when they deliver and everyone tests it and it (almost certainly) shows it's true lack of claimed performance, it'll mean squat, they still sell squillions of them.
Every tech blog on the planet could say it's useless, and that message would still only reach 1% of the potential market.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 13, 2015, 08:53:02 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 13, 2015, 02:42:45 am

It's worth talking about what it really takes capital-wise to start one of these ventures.  There's a bunch of business practices in the crowdfunding market that need to be addressed.  Undercapitalization is a major issue - as is an over-ambitious goal.  The Batteriser really is a series of teachable moments from many different aspects of designing, building, and selling a consumer-oriented electronics product:  thermodynamics, battery chemistry, low-battery cutoff techniques, boost-converter design, "napkin estimation," component price negotiation, custom manufacturing, tooling, marketing, seeking capital, retail distribution, and probably a lot more that I've missed. 

Batteroo really nailed the marketing and distribution channels out of the chute.  You have to admire them for that.  The industrial design is fairly slick as well, it just is going to have manufacturability issues. 

It's rare to get to watch something like this run its course from start to finish.  So, as long as the discussion is mature and objective, these things are worth talking about.

Agreed. This has been and will continue to be a fascinating project to watch, whether it succeeds or fails.
Unfortunately if it does fail I suspect we won't hear a peep out of them, unlike what is quite common these days, with failed projects writing an extensive blog post about how and why it failed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 13, 2015, 09:08:13 am

I have one of these:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Wholesale-CREE-Q5-1200-Lumen-14500-ZOOMABLE-LED-Flashlight-Torch-Black-Mini-/381332636816?hash=item58c9324490 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Wholesale-CREE-Q5-1200-Lumen-14500-ZOOMABLE-LED-Flashlight-Torch-Black-Mini-/381332636816?hash=item58c9324490)

I'm pretty sure its the same, mine didn't some with the laser warning sticker.  :-//

However, its still very usable down to 0.6volts, and keeps outputting light down to 0.3volts!

So, the batteriser will reduce the run time, and rather than have the torch slowly drop in brightness, so you can potentially get to a safe place, or out of the darkness, it will simply suddenly, and without warning, FAIL!  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on September 13, 2015, 10:18:46 am

Hi,

From a commercial point of view I don't believe that Bob's goal is to sell a ton of Batterisers with a fairly slim margins.

I believe that Bob's real product is the company. He is a serial entrepreneur, he will have an exit strategy, somebody else will be left with the pieces.

They don't care if the product really works.

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ErikTheNorwegian on September 13, 2015, 10:56:41 am

Quote from: Chipguy on September 13, 2015, 07:01:23 am

Quote from: firewalker on September 13, 2015, 06:57:01 am

I believe he is one of the Roohparvars.

Alexander.

Same here

I bet Dave has a IP adress in the log from the " Davey_Jonez " that we could look at and try to find other traces from in logs on the net.. it may reveal the Id in other forum and pages.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: coppice on September 13, 2015, 11:05:11 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 13, 2015, 06:40:26 am

Quote from: ez24 on September 13, 2015, 06:35:45 am

5ky when you finish your exotic testing and if you have a LED flashlight that uses 2 AA batteries could you take 4 new alkaline batteries and run 2 until shutoff without your circuit and 2 with your circuit.

This is a major use I have for AA batteries. 

Most LED flashlights will already have boost converters in them. Plus they'll be optimized for the particular LED.

Most LED flashlights have lithium ion batteries in them. Trying to optimise battery performance with alkaline cells is a niche market. :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 13, 2015, 11:36:45 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on September 13, 2015, 10:18:46 am

I believe that Bob's real product is the company. He is a serial entrepreneur, he will have an exit strategy, somebody else will be left with the pieces.

Undoubtedly, that is the goal.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 13, 2015, 02:25:35 pm

Quote from: ez24 on September 13, 2015, 07:08:12 am

Quote

Most LED flashlights will already have boost converters in them. Plus they'll be optimized for the particular LED.

yes but still the flashlight dies.  If the device would fit and make the flashlight last longer then I would say it does its job.

How can another boost converter in serial make a flashlight last longer? It will most likely waste 10-20% of the battery.

(And all 147 pages of this thread have been saying this...it's an unavoidable side effect of boost converters like Batteriser)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Psycho on September 13, 2015, 03:15:36 pm

I hope they send some Batterisers out...
Maybe I am a kind of masochist but i want to see this guy testing the Batteriser.

syyenergy7 - I'll be doing a Real Batteriser Test in about November (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoEIGd7XJn0)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrRobSteel on September 13, 2015, 03:36:36 pm

Quote from: Psycho on September 13, 2015, 03:15:36 pm

I hope they send some Batterisers out...
Maybe I am a kind of masochist but i want to see this guy testing the Batteriser.

syyenergy7 - I'll be doing a Real Batteriser Test in about November (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoEIGd7XJn0)

A whole video about how specs are misleading and often exaggerate... well between random ramblings. Pretty sure this is what we've been saying. *facepalm*

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Psycho on September 13, 2015, 03:45:39 pm

I guess I will never be able to understand how people can be that ignorant, like this syyenergy7

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 13, 2015, 04:48:37 pm

Quote from: MrRobSteel on September 13, 2015, 03:36:36 pm

A whole video about how specs are misleading and often exaggerate... well between random ramblings. Pretty sure this is what we've been saying. *facepalm*

I'm not sure what to say. It might actually work in a crappy camera like that. If Alkalines only last ten minutes then the cutoff voltage must be 1.4V or something.

Is it chance that fixated him on that camera? Is this the cleverest Batteroo shill yet?   :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 13, 2015, 05:07:12 pm

It'll be great when batteroo's favorite little special person who can't even pronounce their product name correctly, syyenergy7, ends up proving that batteriser is a scam.  I'm VERY glad that he chose a high current device to test on.  Let the games begin!  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 13, 2015, 05:24:17 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 13, 2015, 05:07:12 pm

It'll be great when batteroo's favorite little special person who can't even pronounce their product name correctly, syyenergy7, ends up proving that batteriser is a scam.

If Alkalines only last 10 minutes in that camera (as stated in the manual!) then Batteriser could easily end up making them last 20-30 minutes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 13, 2015, 05:42:00 pm

Someone buy that camera and test it!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ziq8tsi on September 13, 2015, 05:48:43 pm

If he tests the runtime while recording video, he will quite possibly find that sudden loss of power also corrupts the memory card.

Most older cameras use FAT filesystems, which are not journalled and require simultaneous writes to the data blocks, both FATs, and directory entry to maintain consistency.  And the controller inside the card remaps physical blocks for wear levelling and defect management; not necessarily an atomic process either.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Quarlo Klobrigney on September 13, 2015, 06:03:51 pm

It's just the white van men selling dodgy kit...only without the white van.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 13, 2015, 06:04:11 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 13, 2015, 05:24:17 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 13, 2015, 05:07:12 pm

It'll be great when batteroo's favorite little special person who can't even pronounce their product name correctly, syyenergy7, ends up proving that batteriser is a scam.

If Alkalines only last 10 minutes in that camera (as stated in the manual!) then Batteriser could easily end up making them last 20-30 minutes.

You're assuming it only lasts 10 minutes due to a really high cutoff voltage.  I'm thinking it's high current draw

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 13, 2015, 06:20:05 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 13, 2015, 06:04:11 pm

You're assuming it only lasts 10 minutes due to a really high cutoff voltage.  I'm thinking it's high current draw

It would need to draw about 12 Amps to use up 2000 mAh in ten minutes...

(2000+ being the number of mAh in an alkaline AA battery, approx.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on September 13, 2015, 06:22:37 pm

I have a Sony camera which will do around 5 minutes with non rechargeable cells, then says low battery and cuts off. Only ones that will last are the Energiser Lithium cells, which will do hours. 1Ah AA NimH cells the same long run time. Just the spiky high current draw as the camera charges up the flash circuitry if the light level drops down triggers the UVLO.

I bought the camera on Gumtree, not because I wanted the camera, but it was advertised with 3 MS cards, and they were a mix of high capacity and low capacity ones, and I wanted one bigger than the 8M one in the Mavica. The camera and cards were cheaper than the one 128M card alone, plus it came with the Energiser Lithium cells as well, which did a month of shooting every so often. Now it is in a drawer as I have other cameras I like with better resolution and better focusing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 13, 2015, 06:31:58 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 13, 2015, 06:20:05 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 13, 2015, 06:04:11 pm

You're assuming it only lasts 10 minutes due to a really high cutoff voltage.  I'm thinking it's high current draw

It would need to draw about 12 Amps to use up 2000 mAh in ten minutes...

(2000+ being the number of mAh in an alkaline AA battery, approx.)

You're forgetting Peukert's Law.  You get MUCH less capacity out of a battery at higher current draw.  A Duracell AA battery is rated at 27 hours of life at 100 mA constant current.  A Duracell AA battery is also rated at about 1 hour at 1 A constant current.  Do the math and you'll find it's not a proportional relationship.  :-+

Also, that example was assuming you go down to 0.8v.  I'd assume the camera probably cuts out at closer to 1.1v, so in that case, it would be 22 hours for 100mA versus about 30 minutes at 1A.

EDIT: here's their graph, for reference

(http://i.imgur.com/13Ii5TEh.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 13, 2015, 07:08:54 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 13, 2015, 06:31:58 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 13, 2015, 06:20:05 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 13, 2015, 06:04:11 pm

You're assuming it only lasts 10 minutes due to a really high cutoff voltage.  I'm thinking it's high current draw

It would need to draw about 12 Amps to use up 2000 mAh in ten minutes...

(2000+ being the number of mAh in an alkaline AA battery, approx.)

You're forgetting Peukert's Law. 

My bad  :)

Still, you'd need to draw 2-3 Amps to kill them in 10 minutes.

Think though: Would alkalines die in ten minutes when other battery types manage 2 hours if it was just current draw? Nope.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on September 13, 2015, 07:12:55 pm

I doubt the Batteriser can supply enough current to keep the camera from shutting down.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on September 13, 2015, 07:14:30 pm

Yes, it cuts off, not because the energy is used up, but because the ESR is too high for the high current draw, so the cell voltage collapses.
The boost converter can help a little bit with that by reducin the cutoff from 1.1V to 0.5V, but that won't help more than ca. 10%

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 13, 2015, 07:15:00 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 13, 2015, 07:08:54 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 13, 2015, 06:31:58 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 13, 2015, 06:20:05 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 13, 2015, 06:04:11 pm

You're assuming it only lasts 10 minutes due to a really high cutoff voltage.  I'm thinking it's high current draw

It would need to draw about 12 Amps to use up 2000 mAh in ten minutes...

(2000+ being the number of mAh in an alkaline AA battery, approx.)

You're forgetting Peukert's Law. 

My bad  :)

Still, you'd need to draw 2-3 Amps to kill them in 10 minutes.

Think though: Would alkalines die in ten minutes when other battery types manage 2 hours if it was just current draw? Nope.

Yes. That's due to the ESR. Look up the ESR for lithium batteries. It's much lower than alkalines. Hence why voltage delta between full and empty is so small. That also mean they're able to put out nearly the same amount of current when empty as they can when they're full. Alkaline current capability curves downwards with the voltage. Full AA: 6-10 amps, empty AA: 0.5-1 amp. Do you know what current output difference is like with lithium batteries?

Voltage isn't everything. If your battery can't supply enough current, your device can stop functioning, despite the voltage level. It's why eight AA batteries in series can't start your car engine despite having the same voltage as a lead acid 12V it normally used.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on September 13, 2015, 07:20:07 pm

Quote

Still, you'd need to draw 2-3 Amps to kill them in 10 minutes

Yep, and a camera uses that much. 3A @ 2x1.1V is 6.6W. That's not much for all the processing power, motors, flash, memory  etc...  in this camera.
Alkaline cells cannot supply that current, this is why the manufacturer recommends NiMh, which have a much lower ESR, and last longer, despite having actually less capacity, less energy, and less voltage !!!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 13, 2015, 07:20:41 pm

Quote from: f4eru on September 13, 2015, 07:14:30 pm

Yes, it cuts off, not because the energy is used up, but because the ESR is too high for the high current draw, so the cell voltage collapses.
The boost converter can help a little bit with that by reducin the cutoff from 1.1V to 0.5V, but that won't help more than ca. 10%

I think the converter can actually latch into a state where it draws enough current to keep itself running and pull the battery voltage down to near 0V (ish), but is unable to supply sufficient current (and voltage) to actually power the load.

Might be an interesting test for 5ky to check if this behaviour can be reproduced (I've observed it before with a 5V converter) as it will definitely draw the cells way beyond their safe discharge rating (read leakage).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on September 13, 2015, 07:33:35 pm

Quote

I think the converter can actually latch into a state where it draws enough current to keep itself running and pull the battery voltage down to near 0V (ish), but is unable to supply sufficient current (and voltage) to actually power the load.

Yes, there is a snow ball effect in that, also called positive feedback. Put a constant load power draw on a cell, at some point, it could probably even oscillate due to the cut off behavior of the load !!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on September 13, 2015, 07:42:23 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on September 13, 2015, 10:18:46 am

Hi,

From a commercial point of view I don't believe that Bob's goal is to sell a ton of Batterisers with a fairly slim margins.

I believe that Bob's real product is the company. He is a serial entrepreneur, he will have an exit strategy, somebody else will be left with the pieces.

They don't care if the product really works.

Jay_Diddy_B

I have worked for 4 startups , one of which was successful, the other 3 lost their VC investors millions, the worst losing about $45 million. I took these jobs because of the experience it provided. There aren't enough engineers at a startup to actually do the work in the given schedule, so each one has a lot to do. Of these 4 startups, each was making a product that they wanted to sell to a customer like Cisco, Apple or other technically astute player. Batteriser is unique, AFAIK, in that they are the first Silicon Valley VC funded company who have a business plan to scam the uneducated masses.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 13, 2015, 07:46:18 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 13, 2015, 04:48:37 pm

I'm not sure what to say. It might actually work in a crappy camera like that. If Alkalines only last ten minutes then the cutoff voltage must be 1.4V or something.
...
If Alkalines only last 10 minutes in that camera (as stated in the manual!) then Batteriser could easily end up making them last 20-30 minutes.

It can't be 1.4v cutoff otherwise it wouldn't get any kind of runtime on a NiMH cell either.  It's the current demand of the camera trying to pull a couple amps out of a pair of AA cells.  This will cause the voltage across a pair of AAs to drop very rapidly to the point that they can't supply enough total power regardless of what kind of boost converter you slap on them.

Batterizer won't make them last significantly longer because as the input voltage drops you have to draw even more current in order to supply the total power at the boosted voltage to the output.

Quote

Still, you'd need to draw 2-3 Amps to kill them in 10 minutes.

Think though: Would alkalines die in ten minutes when other battery types manage 2 hours if it was just current draw? Nope

You're correct in that this camera will be drawing a couple of amps but wrong about the other batteries.  Other battery chemistries can do significantly more current for longer without the terminal voltage dropping significantly.  This is why things like NiCds are used in power tools, for example, and get good battery life until the discharge profile finally starts to drop off like a rock at the end.  Just compare the discharge curves of an alkaline and a NiCd or NiMH cells at an amp or two.  You'll see why any device with a heavy load will do much better on rechargeables than alkalines.

Quote from: 5ky on September 13, 2015, 06:04:11 pm

You're assuming it only lasts 10 minutes due to a really high cutoff voltage.  I'm thinking it's high current draw

You're correct.

Quote from: ziq8tsi on September 13, 2015, 05:48:43 pm

If he tests the runtime while recording video, he will quite possibly find that sudden loss of power also corrupts the memory card.

Yes.  This is another unintended consequence.  Just like the CO2 detector example where you won't get your low battery warning (EGADS!) because it removes the product's ability to warn the user, a camera typically does the same type of thing.  When it goes into shutdown mode due to low battery it still has enough juice to do a clean shutdown, close files properly, etc.  This will not occur with a batterizer if it just cuts the power from 1.5v to 0v with no warning.  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 13, 2015, 07:56:39 pm

Quote from: McCarthy on September 13, 2015, 07:40:18 pm

So, did anybody here pre order a set for some testing when it comes out?

Yup, with enough to go around if anyone wants a pair mailed to them. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 13, 2015, 08:18:55 pm

Quote from: McCarthy on September 13, 2015, 07:58:46 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 13, 2015, 07:56:39 pm

Quote from: McCarthy on September 13, 2015, 07:40:18 pm

So, did anybody here pre order a set for some testing when it comes out?

Yup, with enough to go around if anyone wants a pair mailed to them.

Please PM me as soon as you got them. I'd love to test and share. I'll pass them on when done.

I have a terrible memory so it would be safer for you to Pm me when you've heard they've shipped :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on September 14, 2015, 12:17:50 am

I have a feeling that high-current devices are either going to fry the Batteriser or won't work as well as without, as it'll have to draw even more current (and thus a lower voltage) from a battery with increasing internal resistance, and the efficiency of the boost converter is going to drop very quickly. Is it even possible to make a boost converter that can take e.g. 0.8V at 4A to 1.5V at 2A, i.e. 94% efficiency, and put it in a package <1mm thick?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 14, 2015, 12:36:04 am

Quote from: amyk on September 14, 2015, 12:17:50 am

... Is it even possible to make a boost converter that can take e.g. 0.8V at 4A to 1.5V at 2A, i.e. 94% efficiency, and put it in a package <1mm thick?

Ahh well, you see, that is the magic of this new custom designed IC from the genius Rooparvah brothers...  :-DD They've managed to design a custom IC that none of the big IC manufacturers, TI/Maxim/Fairchild/etc were able to achieve. Using Patents, genius, and MAGIC!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on September 14, 2015, 07:14:00 am

Quote from: McCarthy on September 13, 2015, 07:40:18 pm

So, did anybody here pre order a set for some testing when it comes out?

yes, have 8 AA size on order

TBH i think quite a few people have ordered some for testing/teardown/debunking

i will have some spare, so if anyone in UK/Europe wants one for testing let me know

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 14, 2015, 08:33:38 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 13, 2015, 08:46:37 am

...they still sell squillions of them.
Every tech blog on the planet could say it's useless, and that message would still only reach 1% of the potential market.

But some investors and distributors could be influenced by those blogs. I hope so.
Or corporations like Sony, Samsung, Philips could inform those distributors about dangers and incompatibilities.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 14, 2015, 08:45:59 am

Quote from: Psycho on September 13, 2015, 03:45:39 pm

I guess I will never be able to understand how people can be that ignorant, like this syyenergy7

Is it only that guy, or is a whole area in that country speaking with that accent?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 08:57:22 am

I have some more data!

It's hilarious how the one with the boost converters (simulating batterisers) gets the shortest time.  That's using inductors that wouldn't fit into the batteriser.  If they don't put some disclaimers in their instructions manual that says "only use batteriser AFTER your product stops working, else you'll get reduced battery life.", I would be very surprised.

I'm also testing rechargable 2500 mAh nimh batteries at the moment, but couldn't wait until it's finished to put the other results into a combined graph.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, to keep the lines "thinner", I added a pretty aggressive weighted rolling average so you can tell the lines apart better.  The "noise" made the lines appear really thick, which made it hard to tell apart when they're near each other.

(http://i.imgur.com/YaFNpAq.png)

Link to full resolution image: http://i.imgur.com/n597E01.png (http://i.imgur.com/n597E01.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 14, 2015, 09:01:37 am

 :clap: :clap: :clap:

How did they manage to get only 2 hours? :P :P :P

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 09:02:31 am

Quote from: firewalker on September 14, 2015, 09:01:37 am

:clap: :clap: :clap:

How did they manage to get only 2 hours? :P :P :P

Alexander.

By being blatant liars  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 14, 2015, 09:10:05 am

Quote from: firewalker on September 14, 2015, 09:01:37 am

:clap: :clap: :clap:

How did they manage to get only 2 hours? :P :P :P

We can't say for sure, but...

a) We know they stopped the test where the blue line jumps upwards on that graph (claiming the batteries are dead there when they aren't)
b) We can see they have a cheap current measuring device attached to it, burden voltage unknown.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 14, 2015, 09:10:22 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 08:57:22 am

It's hilarious how the one with the boost converters (simulating batterisers) gets the shortest time. 

That was predicted (p)ages ago.
Terrific work by the way.

What's the OFF or standby consumption with/without batterisersimulator?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 14, 2015, 09:11:29 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 08:57:22 am

It's hilarious how the one with the boost converters (simulating batterisers) gets the shortest time.

Hilarious ... but not really surprising.

PS: Great graph!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on September 14, 2015, 09:11:43 am

Great Results !!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=171094;image)

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 09:18:31 am

Quote from: Galenbo on September 14, 2015, 09:10:22 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 08:57:22 am

It's hilarious how the one with the boost converters (simulating batterisers) gets the shortest time. 

That was predicted (p)ages ago.
Terrific work by the way.

What's the OFF or standby consumption with/without batterisersimulator?

I'm too sleepy to test this now--going to bed.  I'll test when I get up and let you know.  (assuming the nimh test is finished by then)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 14, 2015, 09:20:47 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 08:57:22 am

I have some more data!...

Wow, excellent job!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 14, 2015, 09:28:02 am

Thanks 5Ky for this nice graph :)

The lithium battery are really impressive! 20Hr wow  :clap: (and alkalines with the dimmed backlight are not that far away, you get only 3hr more with the lithium! (For a price much higher, and as it's an outdoor product, the backlight is not that important)

It have nothing to do with our current problem, but I wonder how long on alkalines vs lithum the device will work without the backlight at all, I'm sure it would be impressive as just dimming it add 6 hour of run time for the alkaline battery)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 14, 2015, 09:34:57 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 08:57:22 am

I have some more data!

It's hilarious how the one with the boost converters (simulating batterisers) gets the shortest time.  That's using inductors that wouldn't fit into the batteriser.

[...]

Link to full resolution image: http://i.imgur.com/n597E01.png (http://i.imgur.com/n597E01.png)

How did you measure the boosted battery voltage? I guess you had to measure both batteries individually or so as there was a boost converter in between them?

Probably Batteroo's next defense will be that Batterisers are meant to work with Lithium cells. Remember where you read it first  8)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 14, 2015, 09:37:51 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on September 14, 2015, 09:11:43 am

Great Results !!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=171094;image)

Jay_Diddy_B

nb. It also busts their "current spikes" theory. There's plenty of current spikes on there but it didn't seem to bother the GPS.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on September 14, 2015, 12:07:24 pm

Quote

only use batteriser AFTER your product stops working,

The point about  using boost converter on exhausted batterie is an interesting thing to put to test now.  A percentage number in time gained should indicate what batteriser can do in a best case scenario (for such GPS). I hope you still have those dead batteries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 14, 2015, 12:43:31 pm

Quote from: onlooker on September 14, 2015, 12:07:24 pm

Quote

only use batteriser AFTER your product stops working,

The point about  using boost converter on exhausted batterie is an interesting thing to put to test now.  A percentage number in time gained should indicate what batteriser can do in a best case scenario (for such GPS). I hope you still have those dead batteries.

You would have to allow the non-converterised setup to recover equally long as the batteries that you "recycle" using a converter and see how long both will run. All graphs clearly show the batteries recover after the GPS as powered off.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 14, 2015, 01:17:43 pm

Quote from: onlooker on September 14, 2015, 12:07:24 pm

Quote

only use batteriser AFTER your product stops working,

The point about  using boost converter on exhausted batterie is an interesting thing to put to test now.  A percentage number in time gained should indicate what batteriser can do in a best case scenario (for such GPS). I hope you still have those dead batteries.

That could very well be dependent upon how long you let the batteries recover.
Not that they regain any extra energy of course, but the dynamic ionic ESR can play a role here.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 14, 2015, 01:20:45 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 14, 2015, 09:37:51 am

nb. It also busts their "current spikes" theory. There's plenty of current spikes on there but it didn't seem to bother the GPS.

And that was the entire premise of their "technical" video  :palm:
Of course, it might have some merit on a few (poorly designed) products, but busted on their own carefully selected product, the GPS!  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 14, 2015, 01:20:56 pm

Quote from: onlooker on September 14, 2015, 12:07:24 pm

Quote

only use batteriser AFTER your product stops working,

The point about  using boost converter on exhausted batterie is an interesting thing to put to test now.  A percentage number in time gained should indicate what batteriser can do in a best case scenario (for such GPS). I hope you still have those dead batteries.

Haven't you seen the video? It instantly goes from 2% to 100%!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 14, 2015, 01:27:34 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 14, 2015, 01:20:56 pm

Quote from: onlooker on September 14, 2015, 12:07:24 pm

Quote

only use batteriser AFTER your product stops working,

The point about  using boost converter on exhausted batterie is an interesting thing to put to test now.  A percentage number in time gained should indicate what batteriser can do in a best case scenario (for such GPS). I hope you still have those dead batteries.

Haven't you seen the video? It instantly goes from 2% to 100%!

So true...

I'll buy 10000000000000000000000000000000000000 of them! Please please please!!!

Imagine a Batteriser used after a solar panel or a wind turbine you will be able to go to Pluto with that!
I can't even imagine a 800% more energy from a nuclear power plant.... That would be more than just awesome.....  :scared:

 :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rt on September 14, 2015, 01:31:24 pm

I know the Aussie media will be more concerned with matters in Canberra today but any sign of publications from Fairfax concerning a certain Sydney-side rabble rouser?!

I presume they wouldn't be up for including 5ky's graph above (nice work) as part of the fair and balanced coverage.

rt

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 14, 2015, 01:51:57 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 14, 2015, 01:27:34 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 14, 2015, 01:20:56 pm

Quote from: onlooker on September 14, 2015, 12:07:24 pm

Quote

only use batteriser AFTER your product stops working,

The point about  using boost converter on exhausted batterie is an interesting thing to put to test now.  A percentage number in time gained should indicate what batteriser can do in a best case scenario (for such GPS). I hope you still have those dead batteries.

Haven't you seen the video? It instantly goes from 2% to 100%!

So true...

I'll buy 10000000000000000000000000000000000000 of them! Please please please!!!

Imagine a Batteriser used after a solar panel or a wind turbine you will be able to go to Pluto with that!
I can't even imagine a 800% more energy from a nuclear power plant.... That would be more than just awesome.....  :scared:

 :popcorn:

Why go through all the trouble if you can fit a batteriser over a batteriser over an AA cel? As you may know batterisers come in 4-packs ... clip one on the other and you have 4096 times more energy from a single AA cell.

With all the batterisers ordered so far, you can actually solve the worlds energy problems if you only connected them all together.  ::) I bet Big Batteriser didn't mention this because they want to sell as many batterisers as possible, thus they will probably advise against using them in this way.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 14, 2015, 01:59:42 pm

It's not 4096!

It's 6561 times more! ( 9^4, 800% more of i => 9*i )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 14, 2015, 02:24:45 pm

Quote from: firewalker on September 14, 2015, 09:01:37 am

How did they manage to get only 2 hours?

Quote from: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 09:02:31 am

By being blatant liars

Yeah, pretty much...  They know what they're doing.  They're playing "confuse and confound" with the general public (who they know full well can't be expected to understand the details of the engineering that goes into something like this) to obfuscate the truth.  That's why they haven't published a single piece of actual test data.  It would either have to be completely fudged data or some kind of misleading edge case, otherwise it's going to show exactly what we already knew from the outset.  :palm:

It's those pesky laws of physics getting in the way again...  :)

Quote from: Fungus on September 14, 2015, 09:10:05 am

a) We know they stopped the test where the blue line jumps upwards on that graph (claiming the batteries are dead there when they aren't)
b) We can see they have a cheap current measuring device attached to it, burden voltage unknown.

Yes, precisely.

a) For one thing, it seems that they're saying when the GPS informs you that it's activating it's Alkaline power saver feature to give you maximum battery life that this is the "product failing, shutting off".  This is completely untrue.

b) Obviously, either the batteries were not new with full capacity (unlikely) or all the added resistance of their goofy and horrible test setup is sapping extra power AND making the battery voltage seen at the GPS significantly lower than the actual battery terminal voltage.  This goes back to the original video debacle with the monkey where they claim the test setup needs to be correct, etc. and then blatently do it incorrectly over and over, again and again in various hilarious ways.  :palm:

Quote from: jippie on September 14, 2015, 09:34:57 am

How did you measure the boosted battery voltage? I guess you had to measure both batteries individually or so as there was a boost converter in between them?

5ky is using a single boost converter around the pair of batteries.  Contrary to what Batteroo claims (that we must use their super-duper-extra-funky Batterizer brand boost converter which has magic-like efficiency,) this actually gives Batterizer the benefit of the doubt with regard to converter efficiency as it is very likely that even if they have a more efficient single converter than 5ky has tested here, once you put two of them (or 4,6,8 of them) in series you're likely going to waste significantly more power total in those multiple converter stages even though each one is doing a smaller "boost" in voltage.  (Each one still has to do the full current, though, of course...)  :palm:

edit: I was incorrect.  5ky is using two converters, see post #2248 below.  It is still likely that you would lose efficiency in the total system as you put more and more converters in series, though, I would expect, so I've not removed the preceding paragraph.

Quote from: onlooker on September 14, 2015, 12:07:24 pm

The point about using boost converter on exhausted batterie is an interesting thing to put to test now.

Quote from: jippie on September 14, 2015, 12:43:31 pm

You would have to allow the non-converterised setup to recover equally long as the batteries that you "recycle" using a converter and see how long both will run.

This would be a valid best-case-scenario test and similar to someone going to the junk drawer and pulling out a couple of "dead" batteries (which Batterizer essentially claims will work tickety-boo).  This eliminates the converter losses during the actual real life of the battery. 

The problem is there is no significant energy actually left in the battery so using the GPS example, you're only going to get a few more minutes of runtime after letting the batteries "recover" whether you're using an extra boost converter or just the one already built into the GPS.  It should generally be slightly shorter with an extra boost converter added due to the additional losses but will again depend on the cutout voltages of each converter and the actual chemical capacity left in the cell.  Recharging a standard alkaline (which will never get you anywhere close to full capacity again but will reverse the chemical reaction and put some power back into the cell) will net you far more total use time from the cell than any Batterizer ever could...

Quote from: jippie on September 14, 2015, 12:43:31 pm

All graphs clearly show the batteries recover after the GPS as powered off.

The open circuit, unloaded terminal voltage will recover somewhat but the battery itself is still essentially chemically depleted and only a small amount of extra energy will be able to be extracted due to the chemistry having a chance to settle and the maximum amount of anode and cathode exposed to electrolyte, etc.  As has been explained and demonstrated repeatedly, the unloaded voltage doesn't really tell you anything about the capacity remaining in a battery of any chemistry type.  (Well, I suppose if you measure 0.125 volts on a cell that should be more like 1.56v new, you can deduce that you're not looking at a battery with any significant capacity left.  :) )  As Dave showed and explained in his videos, just because it measures 1.5v doesn't mean it has any usable energy left at all.

In high-drain, long-term loads where there is actually significant physical heating of the cell this effect will be amplified because the cell will have a chance to cool, the resistance of elements will drop, etc. so you will be able to extract a bit more total energy compared to a low-drain device but it's still going to be a pretty small fraction of the total battery capacity.

800%, even 80%, my arse!  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 14, 2015, 02:40:53 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 08:57:22 am

If they don't put some disclaimers in their instructions manual that says "only use batteriser AFTER your product stops working, else you'll get reduced battery life.", I would be very surprised.

They can't really do that either because then you lose that "power of suggestion" effect.  If people only put the Batterizer on cells when they're already dead, they will soon realize that they're only getting a small fraction of additional power when the thing dies shortly thereafter and they have to install fresh batteries.  Batteroo are relying on the fact that the average consumer isn't going to actually critically analyze the length of time the batteries last and may be fooled into thinking they're getting longer battery life (when in fact it will probably actually be shorter in almost every use case.)

edit: The only way to partially get around this would be for the Batterizer to be bypassing the boost converter until voltage drops to some setpoint and then activating it but then what do you set your cut-in threshold to in order to work with all devices? etc. etc.  Set it too high and you waste too much power.  Set it too low and you won't get those huge gains on the one-off oddball, poorly/erroneously designed or faulty product that could actually benefit from the boost because you'll hit the product's cutoff voltage first....  :palm:  fail, Fail, FAIL...

Great work on the measurements, by the way, 5ky!  :)  Thanks!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 14, 2015, 02:46:48 pm

Quote from: drussell on September 14, 2015, 02:24:45 pm

800%, even 80%, my arse!  :)

Are you Probe?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: uwezi on September 14, 2015, 02:53:36 pm

Wow - 150 pages of discussion, I know that my contribution will drown...

Anyway, I just had the time to read the latest scientific source which the guys at Batterizer cited lately in favor of their view of the world: "Using PSpice to Simulate the Discharge Behavior of Common Batteries" by Steven C. Hageman. It appears that the guys at Batterizer really have a hard time reading, because this manuscript clearly states:

page 261:
- "For pulsed loads with cycle times greater than 10 seconds, the cell gives more total capacity than under a constant load. The rest portion of the pulsed load allows the battery chemistry to recover some of the lost capacity. But as the pulsed load cycle time becomes less than 1 second, the cell does not enough time... In these cases the RMS value of the pulsed discharge current should be used."

-"Cell resistance is a function of the cell's state of charge and ... Alkaline cells show a 2:1 to 4:1 increase in cell resistance from full charge to full discharge."

page 275:
-"When a battery is discharged to a low terminal voltage level, then disconnected from the load, the battery voltage will recover to some higher level in an hour or so. This phenomenon is accounted for in these models when they are discharged at high current levels then left to rest. ... The battery chemistry tries to make a voltage potential difference even if only a few molecules of unused material remain. In this state of discharge the internal resistance of the cell can be an order of magnitude or more than its initial value. If any load is reconnected, the terminal voltage will quickly collapse again to zero."

page 277:
-"Don't simulate pulsed current loads with cycle times less than 5 seconds or so."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on September 14, 2015, 03:05:49 pm

Hi,

@uwezi

I presented an LTspice version of the model described by Steven C. Hageman earlier in this thread. You can find it here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg739090/#msg739090 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg739090/#msg739090)

@ drussell

5ky is using two boost converters, one per battery. I supplied to the boost converters to 5ky. They are described here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739648/#msg739648 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739648/#msg739648)

and the test results are here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739968/#msg739968 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739968/#msg739968)

In addition I measured the efficiency at 100mA, it was 90.5% with Vin=1.25V.

I used the LTC3539 (1 MHz version):

http://www.linear.com/product/LTC3539 (http://www.linear.com/product/LTC3539)

Here is a picture of 5ky test:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=171130;image)


This is the test data from Batteriser's Video:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=171132;image)

The upper trace  (red) shows that as the test continues the battery current rises. This is a characteristic of a switching power supply. The switching power supply is drawing constant power from the batteries. The step is when the Garmin GPS reduces the brightness to prolong battery life.

5ky test results show that the time scale on this graph is wrong. The GPS should run for about 10 hours.



Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 14, 2015, 03:13:39 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on September 14, 2015, 03:05:49 pm

5ky is using two boost converters, one per battery. I supplied to the boost converters to 5ky.
...
Here is a picture of 5ky test:

I had even watched the video but obviously missed picking up on that.

I stand corrected, thanks!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on September 14, 2015, 03:36:08 pm

Quote from: samgab on September 14, 2015, 12:36:04 am

Ahh well, you see, that is the magic of this new custom designed IC from the genius Rooparvah brothers...  :-DD They've managed to design a custom IC that none of the big IC manufacturers, TI/Maxim/Fairchild/etc were able to achieve. Using Patents, genius, and MAGIC!

No, no nooo, they didn't use Magic, they know better. They use Bullshit.


Hey, why not put the Batterizer guys in touch with the solar roadway guys ? They will design us a nice roadwayzer which will increase the efficiency of solar roadways some 800% ....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: stuarts on September 14, 2015, 03:41:11 pm

While I think that their claims of up to 800% are a bit difficult to justify, I can see some applications where it might help.
Case in point.

Many years ago I used an original Garmin Etrex whilst gliding.  It would run for about 22 hours on Energizers. If I put in NiMH with a higher nominal capacity than the Energizers, I was lucky to get 2 to 3 hours from them. While I never bothered to check the terminal voltage that the Etrex expired  at, it was obvious that the lower terminal voltage to the rechargables caused the Etrex to die. It would have been interesting to try such a device and see how long it would have run. Even today using Eneloops, 4 hours is about as much as I can get from the Etrex.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 14, 2015, 03:42:14 pm

Haaa Bullshit ISO certification 1664 is a really good thing :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 14, 2015, 04:07:07 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on September 14, 2015, 03:05:49 pm

This is the test data from Batteriser's Video:
...
The upper trace  (red) shows that as the test continues the battery current rises. This is a characteristic of a switching power supply. The switching power supply is drawing constant power from the batteries. The step is when the Garmin GPS reduces the brightness to prolong battery life.

Yeah, I'm still a bit perplexed as to exactly what is happening there on their graph, that result has never made any sense at all to me.  Beyond completely fudging it on their part with extra resistance or starting with partially discharged batteries (can't tell since we see only current, not the starting cell voltage) or somesuch, my best guess is that because their screen tapper wasn't over the OK button on the alkaline battery feature notification like it was during 5ky's tests, the GPS runs until the message is displayed, then because the OK is never pressed it eventually times out and powers down or something.

Perhaps 5ky can shed some light on that for us as to what might have been happening there. 

5ky, Does the unit eventually shut itself off or go into some sort of standby mode if you don't press the OK button when the backlight reduction notice appears?  According to their graph it looks like it took about 25 minutes from the reduction in current point.  (If anything on that graph can be believed, that is...)

Quote

5ky test results show that the time scale on this graph is wrong. The GPS should run for about 10 hours.

Yeah, something certainly makes no sense with that upper, red graph.  Either they completely fudged something to do with the test itself or the timescale on the results or something like my hunch above must be occuring.  If they really measured that first test with fresh cells and didn't fudge the timescale, they must have some very significant extra resistance in there for the GPS to have seen such low voltages at its input so quickly.

As for total runtime, since they were using the Alkaline setting they should have got more like 17 hours total with the reduced backlight, not 10 hours, shouldn't they?  The time to backlight reduction should be more like 6 hours according to 5ky's data rather than the hour and a half or so that they seem to have observed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 14, 2015, 04:37:31 pm

Quote from: stuarts on September 14, 2015, 03:41:11 pm

While I think that their claims of up to 800% are a bit difficult to justify, I can see some applications where it might help.
Case in point.

Many years ago I used an original Garmin Etrex whilst gliding.  It would run for about 22 hours on Energizers. If I put in NiMH with a higher nominal capacity than the Energizers, I was lucky to get 2 to 3 hours from them. While I never bothered to check the terminal voltage that the Etrex expired  at, it was obvious that the lower terminal voltage to the rechargables caused the Etrex to die. It would have been interesting to try such a device and see how long it would have run. Even today using Eneloops, 4 hours is about as much as I can get from the Etrex.

That is a good example of a product that is designed for alkaline batteries and doesn't play well with rechargeables due to the chemistry's lower output voltage where a boost converter (either in the product itself or when necessary, a Batterizer) would be beneficial.  There used to be a lot more products that were like this than the typical consumer would be likely to be using today, but they certainly still exist.

The problem is that if you try to use a NiCd / NiMH in the current model Batterizer designed for alkaline cells you will be repeatedly over-discharging your rechargeable batteries and likely significantly shorten their cycle life because the Batterizer is designed to really, really heavily discharge an alkaline cell.  This is why they state that they're planning a separate model Batterizer for rechargeables in the future but that you are not to use the current model with rechargables.

... which is so silly because one for rechargeables would have been a far better product to begin with (but much more difficult to try to fool the public into buying with grandiose claims of always increasing battery life many times over) for those cases where you want 1.5 volts instead of 1.2 volts nominal from your cells...  :palm:

Once again, we're doing Batteroo's engineering for them, but what else can 'ya do?  :)

This has been discussed previously by others and I mentioned it in post #2075, for example:

Quote from: drussell on September 11, 2015, 08:14:47 pm

...
The most useful kind of "Batterizer" would be one which changes the discharge curve of a NiCd or NiMH to mimic an alkaline battery to make them a drop-in replacement for an alkaline.  The rechargeable battery companies could even build that INTO these special rechargeable cells without any problem (they could shrink the actual cell size to make room for the electronics) kind of like a typical rechargable Lithium chemistry battery pack will have control electronics in it.  It can include short and deep-discharge protection, adjust the voltage output to vary like an alkaline so battery meters would still function, etc, etc.
...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on September 14, 2015, 04:55:13 pm

I found another product that I have at home that doesn't play well with rechargeables: my hand soap dispenser. It will actually stop functioning within a few weeks of inserting freshly charged eneloop batteries. After the soap dispenser stopped functioning, I charged my batteries with one of those smart chargers and I only managed to store ~300mAh of charge when they normally can do >2000mAh. Had batteriser come out with a completely different claim, such as providing a guaranteed 1.5V output voltage they would have been successful, but they did not. They're sticking to their ridiculous claims and trying to justify them when science is NOT on their side. :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Probes on September 14, 2015, 05:21:41 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 14, 2015, 02:46:48 pm

Quote from: drussell on September 14, 2015, 02:24:45 pm

800%, even 80%, my arse!  :)

Are you Probe?

My name is Probes T. Monkey.

Pleased to meet you!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 14, 2015, 05:44:31 pm

Quote from: tree on September 14, 2015, 04:55:13 pm

I found another product that I have at home that doesn't play well with rechargeables: my hand soap dispenser.

You have a battery powered soap dispenser??   :wtf:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on September 14, 2015, 05:56:12 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 14, 2015, 05:44:31 pm

Quote from: tree on September 14, 2015, 04:55:13 pm

I found another product that I have at home that doesn't play well with rechargeables: my hand soap dispenser.

You have a battery powered soap dispenser??   :wtf:

Yes. Stick your hand to break the IR beam and you get soap. Black magic!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 14, 2015, 06:18:22 pm

Quote from: tree on September 14, 2015, 05:56:12 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 14, 2015, 05:44:31 pm

Quote from: tree on September 14, 2015, 04:55:13 pm

I found another product that I have at home that doesn't play well with rechargeables: my hand soap dispenser.

You have a battery powered soap dispenser??   :wtf:

Yes. Stick your hand to break the IR beam and you get soap. Black magic!

Until the sensor gets gummed up and it empties all the soap over the floor.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on September 14, 2015, 06:20:18 pm

Not for long, those things break down due to the unprotected electronics getting wetted by spilt soap. the sensor is smart, it only dispenses once with a hand approach, it does not carry on till empty.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on September 14, 2015, 06:28:34 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 14, 2015, 06:18:22 pm

Quote from: tree on September 14, 2015, 05:56:12 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 14, 2015, 05:44:31 pm

Quote from: tree on September 14, 2015, 04:55:13 pm

I found another product that I have at home that doesn't play well with rechargeables: my hand soap dispenser.

You have a battery powered soap dispenser??   :wtf:

Yes. Stick your hand to break the IR beam and you get soap. Black magic!

Until the sensor gets gummed up and it empties all the soap over the floor.

Actually it's quite smart. Sensor always gets gummed up and never leaks on the floor. It triggers on edges I think rather than hi/lo values.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 14, 2015, 06:34:56 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 14, 2015, 05:44:31 pm

You have a battery powered soap dispenser??   :wtf:

Yeah, a no-touch soap dispenser. they're actually a pretty nifty.    A great idea.

Quote from: Fungus on September 14, 2015, 06:18:22 pm

Until the sensor gets gummed up and it empties all the soap over the floor.

Quote from: SeanB on September 14, 2015, 06:20:18 pm

...
the sensor is smart, it only dispenses once with a hand approach, it does not carry on till empty.

Like SeanB says, they won't just continuously squirt soap.  Those dispenser doodads (or at least any reasonably well desgned one :) ) does a single-shot burst of soap when the beam is broken but then does hysteresis so it won't activate again until the IR sensor beam is re-established for some period of time and then broken again for another squirt.

I don't own one but the ones I have used work great.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 14, 2015, 06:37:16 pm

Quote from: Probes on September 14, 2015, 05:21:41 pm

My name is Probes T. Monkey.

Pleased to meet you!

Huh...
He came to life...
Good for him!

(Just like Lard Lad)  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 14, 2015, 07:27:57 pm

Quote from: drussell on September 14, 2015, 06:34:56 pm

Quote from: SeanB on September 14, 2015, 06:20:18 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 14, 2015, 06:18:22 pm

Until the sensor gets gummed up and it empties all the soap over the floor.

the sensor is smart, it only dispenses once with a hand approach, it does not carry on till empty.

Like SeanB says, they won't just continuously squirt soap.

Maybe you meant you've never seen one continuously squirt soap. Not yet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on September 14, 2015, 07:39:45 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 14, 2015, 07:27:57 pm

Quote from: drussell on September 14, 2015, 06:34:56 pm

Quote from: SeanB on September 14, 2015, 06:20:18 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 14, 2015, 06:18:22 pm

Until the sensor gets gummed up and it empties all the soap over the floor.

the sensor is smart, it only dispenses once with a hand approach, it does not carry on till empty.

Like SeanB says, they won't just continuously squirt soap.

Maybe you meant you've never seen one continuously squirt soap. Not yet.

Slip on a soaperiser and get 800% more soap!


Shut up and take my money!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 07:43:53 pm

Minor disclaimer, in that picture that Jay posted of the setup on the last page, I had the voltage measurement hooked up wrong.  (I was measuring battery voltage, before the boost converters, which is what I should be doing, only I had the DMM hooked up across BOTH batteries as if they were in series, but they weren't--their outputs are what was in series)

I was on very little sleep, and had a brain fart and was measuring the voltage of the batteries as if they're in series, which didn't immediately throw red flags since that meant it was actually the voltage of one boost converter output in series with the other battery, so the voltage looked correct on the DMM.  I unfortunately didn't notice for an hour that the batteries weren't in series, but instead the outputs were, so I stopped and had to restart the test with fresh batteries, measuring only one battery.  I took measurements of both batteries during the test and they were VERY parallel--I got very lucky that the batteries didn't stray at all during the test.  I just doubled the voltage in excel to compensate for only measuring one.  The difference between the sum of both battery voltages versus my doubling method would be negligible.  (good news is--I found an excuse to go pick up a second bench DMM to avoid problems like this in the future)

Quote from: drussell on September 14, 2015, 04:07:07 pm

Perhaps 5ky can shed some light on that for us as to what might have been happening there. 

5ky, Does the unit eventually shut itself off or go into some sort of standby mode if you don't press the OK button when the backlight reduction notice appears?  According to their graph it looks like it took about 25 minutes from the reduction in current point.  (If anything on that graph can be believed, that is...)

From what I can tell (it's sitting on that warning message as we speak and it's been 20+ minutes), it's just a warning or reminder that the screen is being dimmed and that you should consider lithium or nickel batteries.  It has not shut off (yet), and I don't imagine that it will.  (it would be annoying for it to shut off in the middle of your golfing round just because you didn't click "ok" to confirm that you read the warning message)

Oh and for those discussing those battery soap dispensers--they're awesome!  I find them to be handy when I'm putting rub on some pork ribs.  I can just use my wrist to turn the faucet on and break the IR beam to get my soap.  No need to get anything messy in the process.  (well, I still manage to make a huge mess when using the smoker)

EDIT: words and stuff

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 14, 2015, 08:35:16 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 07:43:53 pm

The difference between the sum of both battery voltages versus my doubling method would be negligible.  (good news is--I found an excuse to go pick up a second bench DMM to avoid problems like this in the future)

A few op-amps rigged up to be two (or more) differential amplifiers that buffer the two (or more) cell voltages at unity gain across the + and - terminals and then added together (which could easily be extended to n number of cells) would easily give a reasonably accurate sum of the voltages of the individual cells.

I don't think I've ever thought about that one before but that actually sounds like a handy apparatus to have around.  I think I just might solder one up with, say 8 differential inputs, on some proto-board with some junkbox op-amps just to have one around for adding (or subtracting, if you reverse an input +/-) things on the bench.  As long as the op-amps have a reasonably small offset voltage with the inputs shorted (any unused inputs can be disabled by shorting them, preferrably to ground, I suppose) the resultant output should even be fairly accurate.

Quote from: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 07:43:53 pm

Quote from: drussell on September 14, 2015, 04:07:07 pm

...
5ky, Does the unit eventually shut itself off or go into some sort of standby mode if you don't press the OK button when the backlight reduction notice appears?  According to their graph it looks like it took about 25 minutes from the reduction in current point.  (If anything on that graph can be believed, that is...)

From what I can tell (it's sitting on that warning message as we speak and it's been 20+ minutes), it's just a warning or reminder that the screen is being dimmed and that you should consider lithium or nickel batteries.  It has not shut off (yet), and I don't imagine that it will.  (it would be annoying for it to shut off in the middle of your golfing round just because you didn't click "ok" to confirm that you read the warning message)

I thought it might possibly conclude that the user wasn't paying attention so an inactivity timer would activate but hadn't thought about the fact that this is intended for a round of golf so some people might well just have it in a pocket or whatever and not even look at the GPS at all until the end of the round to get some statistics rather than peeking at it during the round.  That would be quite an anti-feature, I suppose...  :)

Hmmm...  That still leaves me wondering just what the heck they were doing to appear to get such horrible battery life on the alkalines directly. 

I wonder how much resistance would have to be in series with that thing to make it shut off at a battery terminal voltage of 2.65-2.7 volts (approximately where your alkaline tests were after 2h, not that your set-up was exactly a 0 ohm set-up either, but still...)  That could be tested with a variable power supply and a small-value rheostat or some discrete small-value resistors, I suppose, just to try to approximate how bad their test setup might have had to have been...  Perhaps?  Maybe?  I'm at a loss on that one.

I just can't seem to fathom how on earth they could have observed such terrible battery life if the thing really did shut off.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 14, 2015, 08:45:18 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 14, 2015, 07:27:57 pm

Maybe you meant you've never seen one continuously squirt soap. Not yet.

Your quote conveniently left out my next sentence where I stated:

Quote from: drussell on September 14, 2015, 06:34:56 pm

(or at least any reasonably well desgned one :) )

There may well be poorly designed ones out there but I haven't seen one personally. 
Have you actually seen one that misbehaves like that or are you just theorizing?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 09:01:13 pm

Quote from: drussell on September 14, 2015, 08:35:16 pm

A few op-amps rigged up to be two (or more) differential amplifiers that buffer the two (or more) cell voltages at unity gain across the + and - terminals and then added together (which could easily be extended to n number of cells) would easily give a reasonably accurate sum of the voltages of the individual cells.

I don't think I've ever thought about that one before but that actually sounds like a handy apparatus to have around.  I think I just might solder one up with, say 8 differential inputs, on some proto-board with some junkbox op-amps just to have one around for adding (or subtracting, if you reverse an input +/-) things on the bench.  As long as the op-amps have a reasonably small offset voltage with the inputs shorted (any unused inputs can be disabled by shorting them, preferrably to ground, I suppose) the resultant output should even be fairly accurate.

A similar solution was my next plan of attack had the battery voltages strayed at all from each other, but the night-of, I was far too tired (and lazy) to come up with a better solution  :-DD

For anyone wanting to look at the raw data, here's a link to the spreadsheet.  It's 16 MB so I wasn't able to attach it directly to this post: http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=35560814306500935701 (http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=35560814306500935701)

For those who do look at the spreadsheet, the graphs are to the right of the data at the very top.  Top one is just the boost converter versus regular alkaline.  Graph below it includes the lithium and NiMH batteries.

To make the lines appear thinner for visibility, I added a weighted rolling average, dynamically, so you can just set both weights to 0.5 if you want to see the raw data in the graphs.  (it will look the same, but the noise will be greater, but it also makes it easier to see the voltage dips too since the filtering lessens those by quite a bit)

My wife is making me go to the dog park with her since it's nice out today, but once I'm home, I'm going to make another quick video with these results.  The world needs to know that Batteriser will probably give less battery life in "most" cases than not using them at all.  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 14, 2015, 09:35:14 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 09:01:13 pm

My wife is making me go to the dog park with her since it's nice out today...

Do you have a dog...?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 10:37:30 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 14, 2015, 09:35:14 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 09:01:13 pm

My wife is making me go to the dog park with her since it's nice out today...

Do you have a dog...?

Yup

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 14, 2015, 10:58:26 pm

You can't beat a bit of dogging on a late summer's eve...

😉

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on September 14, 2015, 11:05:15 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 09:01:13 pm

My wife is making me go to the dog park with her since it's nice out today, but once I'm home, I'm going to make another quick video with these results.

Wife making you do things? Get a new wife!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrRobSteel on September 15, 2015, 12:29:30 am

Quote from: tree on September 14, 2015, 11:05:15 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 09:01:13 pm

My wife is making me go to the dog park with her since it's nice out today, but once I'm home, I'm going to make another quick video with these results.

Wife making you do things? Get a new wife!

Coming soon, Wiferiser. 800% more wife.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on September 15, 2015, 01:08:19 am

Quote from: MrRobSteel on September 15, 2015, 12:29:30 am

Quote from: tree on September 14, 2015, 11:05:15 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 09:01:13 pm

My wife is making me go to the dog park with her since it's nice out today, but once I'm home, I'm going to make another quick video with these results.

Wife making you do things? Get a new wife!

Coming soon, Wiferiser. 800% more wife.

Wifesexizer and Husbandsexizer, 8000% more sex with more attractive and pain.

That would be nice.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 15, 2015, 02:07:54 am

Quote from: Circuiteromalaguito on September 15, 2015, 01:08:19 am

Wifesexizer and Husbandsexizer, 8000% more sex with more attractive and pain.

That would be nice.

They already have that on AliExpress...  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on September 15, 2015, 03:15:50 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 10:37:30 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 14, 2015, 09:35:14 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 09:01:13 pm

My wife is making me go to the dog park with her since it's nice out today...

Do you have a dog...?

Yup

Whats her name? xD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 15, 2015, 04:05:24 am

Could the Batteriser have any sort of over-current protection or would it just burn out?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 15, 2015, 04:26:04 am

Quote from: ccs46 on September 15, 2015, 03:15:50 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 10:37:30 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 14, 2015, 09:35:14 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 09:01:13 pm

My wife is making me go to the dog park with her since it's nice out today...

Do you have a dog...?

Yup

Whats her name? xD

Ellie, the ankle biter  :-+

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on September 15, 2015, 04:05:24 am

Could the Batteriser have any sort of over-current protection or would it just burn out?

Potentially, but considering the size constraints, I think they'd have a hard time fitting all that into there.  I wonder if any boost converter IC's have current sense capabilities for that purpose?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on September 15, 2015, 04:41:47 am

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on September 15, 2015, 04:05:24 am

Could the Batteriser have any sort of over-current protection or would it just burn out?

If we assume that it was properly designed, then they have to include it to make sure the inductor doesn't saturate. What happens when the inductor saturates? Tons of bad stuff. For one, efficiency takes a dive.

But then again we can say that it wasn't properly designed, so best guess, they don't have current protection.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 05:10:19 am

It seems the Batteriser CEO is going to claim in this newspaper article that I'm working for Duracell  :palm:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=171199;image)

How on earth can the investors let this farce go on?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 15, 2015, 05:14:27 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 05:10:19 am

It seems the Batteriser CEO is going to claim in this newspaper article that I'm working for Duracell  :palm:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=171199;image)

How on earth can the investors let this farce go on?

Dammit Dave!  I thought we had a gentleman's agreement and I was shilling for Duracell and you were working for Energizer. What happened, man? Where's the love?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on September 15, 2015, 05:15:22 am

:-\ missed opportunity there... should've taken the offer for the article.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tech5940 on September 15, 2015, 05:19:39 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 05:10:19 am

It seems the Batteriser CEO is going to claim in this newspaper article that I'm working for Duracell  :palm:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=171199;image)

How on earth can the investors let this farce go on?

Clearly you have way more in common with the Energizer bunny than you do with Duracell. Get it right people. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 15, 2015, 05:20:52 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 05:10:19 am

It seems the Batteriser CEO is going to claim in this newspaper article that I'm working for Duracell  :palm:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=171199;image)

How on earth can the investors let this farce go on?

Are you going to finally reveal the shocking truth: That you are in fact none other than MR BIG BATTERY HIMSELF, the CEO of Duracell in disguise, and that the Dave Jones persona and the EEVBlog and the EEVBlog Youtube channel are all an elaborate front which you've spent the last 10 or more years building up to this exact moment so you can debunk a little battery sleeve! Now is the time to come clean Mr. BB! And you'd have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for those pesky Butterizer kids...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 15, 2015, 05:23:21 am

http://sktainnopartners.com/team-2/ (http://sktainnopartners.com/team-2/)

Min Park turns out to be a EE.  Could be worth chatting him up if this keeps on.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 05:31:04 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 15, 2015, 05:14:27 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 05:10:19 am

It seems the Batteriser CEO is going to claim in this newspaper article that I'm working for Duracell  :palm:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=171199;image)
How on earth can the investors let this farce go on?

Dammit Dave!  I thought we had a gentleman's agreement and I was shilling for Duracell and you were working for Energizer. What happened, man? Where's the love?

The cheques in the mail, relax  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 15, 2015, 05:36:07 am

If she's anything like most American journalists looking to twist your words, don't trust her.  A simple "I have ZERO affiliation with battery companies." would probably be fine, but I wouldn't divulge any information beyond that.  This planet's media is in a really sad state.  |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 15, 2015, 05:37:34 am

And Batteroo releases the expansive, detailed, whopping 3 page UL test report:
http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_ULReport_GPSDevice.pdf (http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_ULReport_GPSDevice.pdf)

Quote

BATTERISER INC 310 De Guigne Dr. Sunnyvale, CA 94085
Dear Batteriser,
Per your request, project 4787059213 was opened, in accordance with your requested test protocol. The test data has been included at the end of this report.
UL LLC did not select the samples, determine whether the samples were representative of production samples, witness the production of the test samples, nor were we provided with information relative to the formulation or identification of component materials used in the test samples. The test results apply only to the actual samples tested.
The issuance of this report in no way implies Listing, Classification or Recognition by UL LLC and does not authorize the use of UL Listing, Classification or Recognition Marks or any other reference to UL LLC. on the product or system. UL LLC authorizes the above named company to reproduce this Report provided it is reproduced in its entirety. The name, Brand or Marks of UL LLC cannot be used in any packaging, advertising, promotion or marketing relating to the data in this Report, without UL's prior written permission.
UL, its employees and agents shall not be responsible to anyone for the use or nonuse of the information contained in this Report, and shall not incur any obligation or liability for damages, including consequential damages, arising out of or in connection with the use of, or inability to use, the information contained in this Report.
This letter will serve to report that all tests on the subject product have been completed and the data is included in the attached test report.
Thank you for the opportunity to provide your company with these services. Please do not hesitate to contact us if you should have any questions or comments.

Now that is the seal of approval if I've ever seen it.  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 05:40:25 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 15, 2015, 05:37:34 am

And Batteroo releases the expansive, detailed, whopping 3 page UL test report:
http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_ULReport_GPSDevice.pdf (http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_ULReport_GPSDevice.pdf)

Quote

BATTERISER INC 310 De Guigne Dr. Sunnyvale, CA 94085
Dear Batteriser,
Per your request, project 4787059213 was opened, in accordance with your requested test protocol. The test data has been included at the end of this report.
UL LLC did not select the samples, determine whether the samples were representative of production samples, witness the production of the test samples, nor were we provided with information relative to the formulation or identification of component materials used in the test samples. The test results apply only to the actual samples tested.
The issuance of this report in no way implies Listing, Classification or Recognition by UL LLC and does not authorize the use of UL Listing, Classification or Recognition Marks or any other reference to UL LLC. on the product or system. UL LLC authorizes the above named company to reproduce this Report provided it is reproduced in its entirety. The name, Brand or Marks of UL LLC cannot be used in any packaging, advertising, promotion or marketing relating to the data in this Report, without UL's prior written permission.
UL, its employees and agents shall not be responsible to anyone for the use or nonuse of the information contained in this Report, and shall not incur any obligation or liability for damages, including consequential damages, arising out of or in connection with the use of, or inability to use, the information contained in this Report.
This letter will serve to report that all tests on the subject product have been completed and the data is included in the attached test report.
Thank you for the opportunity to provide your company with these services. Please do not hesitate to contact us if you should have any questions or comments.

Now that is the seal of approval if I've ever seen it.  :palm:

Batteriser now have to remove all mention of the UL testing from their website, Indiegogo, and all other promotional material.
UL will totally kick their arse if they don't.

That is the most embarrassing technical report I've ever read in my life, it doesn't even have the date on it  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 15, 2015, 05:42:05 am

From the beginning, they painted themselves as the white knights in shining armour, fighting the evil empire of big battery. A new play on the old conspiracy theory that big oil companies killed the water engine.

The whole family and associates are ruthless scammers. Initially we thought their inflated claims were due to an overzealous advertising team. It is now clear that the Roohparvars were out to deceive investors at the very start of the campaign.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 15, 2015, 05:48:41 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 15, 2015, 05:36:07 am

If she's anything like most American journalists looking to twist your words, don't trust her.  A simple "I have ZERO affiliation with battery companies." would probably be fine, but I wouldn't divulge any information beyond that.  This planet's media is in a really sad state.  |O

Dave's statements are all public tweets. Hannah doesn't have too much leeway there. I think she might be fair. Bob's claim is so silly that he's pretty well cooked.

These desperate acts are a good indication of how quickly the wheels are coming off at Batteroo. People don't recklessly lash out like this when things are going their way.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 05:55:44 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 15, 2015, 05:48:41 am

Dave's statements are all public tweets. Hannah doesn't have too much leeway there. I think she might be fair.

She's at least asking all the right questions and doing some due diligence. We'll see how it turns out, but I'm not fussed either way. I suspect it will just be exactly as she mentioned, a "balanced" article. As if both sides have equally valid technical data to back up their claims.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 15, 2015, 05:55:54 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 05:40:25 am

Batteriser now have to remove all mention of the UL testing from their website, Indiegogo, and all other promotional material.
UL will totally kick their arse if they don't.

It's still there as I write this: "UL, one of the oldest and most prestigious Labs, has performed independent Performance testing of a Garmin Golf GPS with and without Batteriser showing approx. 600% life extension"

Quote from: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 05:40:25 am

That is the most embarrassing technical report I've ever read in my life, it doesn't even have the date on it  :palm:

Not even signed.

It feels like they were blackmailed into writing it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: joseph.anand on September 15, 2015, 06:00:16 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 05:40:25 am

Batteriser now have to remove all mention of the UL testing from their website, Indiegogo, and all other promotional material.
UL will totally kick their arse if they don't.

That is the most embarrassing technical report I've ever read in my life, it doesn't even have the date on it  :palm:

Batteriser already had the entire report with them. They have violated the agreement with UL by
1. Advertising UL certification
2. Placing only a partial portion of the report online
3. Editing out portions of the report (like page 2 of 3)

Page 1 clearly states that everything was provided by Batteriser. It was not independent testing of the claims, but rather independent testing of the things provided to them by Batteriser. It is not stated anywhere that the batteries provided for testing were new.

After reading Page 2 UL themselves have made a mess by not clearly stating for "Test without Batteriser" whether GPS shut down or backlight was switched off. And from both Batteriser's video and also tests done by people on this forum we know that the GPS goes on for much more than that without switching off.


From a product that could have been useful in some situations, this thing is turning day by day into a farce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 15, 2015, 06:02:22 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 05:10:19 am

It seems the Batteriser CEO is going to claim in this newspaper article that I'm working for Duracell  :palm:

Were you also paid by Big Coal to do the solar roadway videos?

How about that time you said something bad about a Sony camera? Was that because Canon was paying you?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drws on September 15, 2015, 06:09:17 am

Why does the UL report use different fonts from page 1 to page 2?
It just doesn't look right. It looks like someone inserted a different page in it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 15, 2015, 06:10:20 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 05:10:19 am

It seems the Batteriser CEO is going to claim in this newspaper article that I'm working for Duracell  :palm:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=171199;image)

How on earth can the investors let this farce go on?

I wondered what company you worked for ever since you mentioned in one of your videos that you were being sponsored by a company.  I guess it is in the detail of "working" or being "sponsored".  But it does not bother me. Unfortunately I cannot find the video.  Maybe someone remembers it and can post it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 15, 2015, 06:14:39 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=171199;image)

Can we make sure Ms. Reporter gets to see the unsigned, undated UL 'report' in all its glory?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 15, 2015, 06:20:23 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 05:40:25 am

That is the most embarrassing technical report I've ever read in my life, it doesn't even have the date on it  :palm:

That's what you send a client at 4:57 on Friday afternoon to make them shut up and go away. Nobody at UL even wanted their name associated with Batteroo, quite obviously. It's pretty obvious from all the caveats, that UL operated the fixture as requested, but is fairly certain the results are garbage.

Getting an actual test report, which wasn't signed by the tester and or the lab director is *really* unusual. We get test results that cost $200-300 USD per test from qualified labs and every one is signed, dated, etc.  That UL test had to cost a couple grand and nobody would sign.   :o

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 15, 2015, 06:25:00 am

"Test is terminated when one of the following occurs: either GPS unit shuts down completely or until the GPS unit displays a Low Battery Power message."

 |O

Did UL actually test it?  There is no low battery message until those cells are DRAINED.  It's like they took the first sheet from the UL report (for some other testing), and then appended two more pages that were 100% fabricated by batteroo to make it appear as if the first UL page is related to the following pages.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 15, 2015, 06:27:41 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 15, 2015, 06:25:00 am

|O

Did UL actually test it?

UL obviously didn't write page 2, Batteroo supplied that page.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: NoItAint on September 15, 2015, 06:30:34 am

(https://richardlittledale.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/battery.jpg)
Big Battery had a big chuckle about this.
So much so, he leaked a little  :o

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 15, 2015, 06:37:32 am

Duracell CEO: 'We have to make them bigger now, because you're only using 20% of capacity'.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 15, 2015, 06:39:46 am

Quote from: drws on September 15, 2015, 06:09:17 am

Why does the UL report use different fonts from page 1 to page 2?
It just doesn't look right. It looks like someone inserted a different page in it.

Why does it have a third page, just to tell you the page is blank?  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on September 15, 2015, 06:55:13 am

Just to make sure there is a permanent copy of the  :bullshit:  report...
Uploaded PDF below.

PS: Thanks Dave, 5ky, Jay_Diddy_B and others for providing all of the educational evidence.
It has been fascinating following this...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 15, 2015, 07:05:32 am

Quote from: McCarthy on September 15, 2015, 06:59:42 am

Btw: this is how a proper UL report looks like:

Yep. That's more like I'd expect from UL - names, dates, signatures.

The Batteriser 'report' looks/feels like somebody at UL is being blackmailed owes a favor. I bet if you showed it to UL upper management they'd toss it out the window

Anybody have contacts at UL...?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 15, 2015, 07:15:30 am

You can open the PDF file in a text editor (notepad) and I believe see who it was created by, and on what date...

The date appears to be the 11th of this month.. of course, I could be completely wrong... but that's after they posted the screenshot of the report...

But as I said, I couldn't barking up the wrong tree.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 15, 2015, 07:22:00 am

BATTERISER INC
310 De Guigne Dr.
Sunnyvale, CA 94085

I thought the company was called Batteroo.

'SKTA Innopartners is pleased to welcome Batteroo, Inc. into the Innovation Accelerator in Sunnyvale. Specializing in cutting-edge power management technology, Batteroo is poised to revolutionize the performance of conventional batteries in consumer devices. Batteroo marks the first SKTA portfolio company to enter the consumer market.'

By the way, that address is just free office space at SKTA. (Spell checker not included)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 07:24:06 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 15, 2015, 05:55:54 am

It's still there as I write this: "UL, one of the oldest and most prestigious Labs, has performed independent Performance testing of a Garmin Golf GPS with and without Batteriser showing approx. 600% life extension"

For the record:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 15, 2015, 07:26:24 am

The file seems to have been created on the 11th, while they uploaded their screenshot on the 5th or so?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 15, 2015, 07:26:29 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 15, 2015, 07:22:00 am

BATTERISER INC
310 De Guigne Dr.
Sunnyvale, CA 94085

I thought the company was called Batteroo.

It is ... good call!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 15, 2015, 07:30:21 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 15, 2015, 07:26:24 am

The file seems to have been created on the 11th, while they uploaded their screenshot on the 5th or so?

This gets better by the minute.  :-DD

I've just contacted UL via. the "report a concern" link on their web page.

I'm concerned about the total lack of names and dates on that 'report' - no accountability or traceability doesn't seem very "UL" to me.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on September 15, 2015, 07:49:58 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 15, 2015, 07:26:24 am

The file seems to have been created on the 11th, while they uploaded their screenshot on the 5th or so?

I cannot find any record of a "Rene Moreno" at UL... The apparent author of the document.
Also, Google search tops "Rene Moreno" for me as an actor... go figure...
Batteriser - "Just an act".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on September 15, 2015, 07:51:27 am

These guys should really learn how to fake reports properly. What a joke.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 15, 2015, 07:52:32 am

Quote from: Mr.B on September 15, 2015, 07:49:58 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 15, 2015, 07:26:24 am

The file seems to have been created on the 11th, while they uploaded their screenshot on the 5th or so?

I cannot find any record of a "Rene Moreno" at UL... The apparent author of the document.
Also, Google search tops "Rene Moreno" for me as an actor... go figure...
Batteriser - "Just an act".

I do like how they titled the document "Month Day Year"

Very professional!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 15, 2015, 07:55:19 am

Just about everything Batteroo/Batteriser, Roohparvar and others have claimed just smells of scam. I bet you on a date already chosen by them, they'll be packing their bags with investor money and claiming the company is insolvent. Just another notch in the "serial entrepreneur's" belt.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on September 15, 2015, 07:56:04 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 15, 2015, 07:52:32 am

Quote from: Mr.B on September 15, 2015, 07:49:58 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 15, 2015, 07:26:24 am

The file seems to have been created on the 11th, while they uploaded their screenshot on the 5th or so?

I cannot find any record of a "Rene Moreno" at UL... The apparent author of the document.
Also, Google search tops "Rene Moreno" for me as an actor... go figure...
Batteriser - "Just an act".

I do like how they titled the document "Month Day Year"

Very professional!

Yip... All professional labs do that if you pay the extra for the service called "Open dated document"...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: gore on September 15, 2015, 07:57:14 am

The UL report has got to be a joke. You click for the full report on their website and it gives you 3 pdf pages, one of which is a blank. The other one we've already seen before. Where's that data? No tables, no curves, no signatures or dates...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 15, 2015, 07:58:44 am

Quote from: gore on September 15, 2015, 07:57:14 am

The UL report has got to be a joke. You click for the full report on their website and it gives you 3 pdf pages, one of which is a blank. The other one we've already seen before. Where's that data? No tables, no curves, explanations, no signatures or dates...

Its not blank! It clearly has printed on it "THIS PAGE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK"

 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on September 15, 2015, 08:00:03 am

Quote from: gore on September 15, 2015, 07:57:14 am

The UL report has got to be a joke. You click for the full report on their website and it gives you 3 pdf pages, one of which is a blank. The other one we've already seen before. Where's that data? No tables, no curves, no signatures or dates...

Yes, absolutely fake.
I hope UL sue their arses off... very publicly...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 15, 2015, 08:03:59 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 15, 2015, 07:58:44 am

Quote from: gore on September 15, 2015, 07:57:14 am

The UL report has got to be a joke. You click for the full report on their website and it gives you 3 pdf pages, one of which is a blank. The other one we've already seen before. Where's that data? No tables, no curves, explanations, no signatures or dates...

Its not blank! It clearly has printed on it "THIS PAGE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK"

That's quite common in this sort of document - it's so you can't write anything on that page and show it to other people claiming it was in the original.

Why they'd add a blank page to a 2 page 'report'? That's a different question...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on September 15, 2015, 08:08:34 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 15, 2015, 08:03:59 am

Why they'd add a blank page to a 2 page 'report'? That's a different question...

It is because they faked the report in MS Word... Suffered from "font-itis" between pages... Ran out of BS ideas at the start of that page.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 15, 2015, 08:12:05 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 05:10:19 am

It seems the Batteriser CEO is going to claim in this newspaper article that I'm working for Duracell  :palm:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=171199;image)

How on earth can the investors let this farce go on?

I wouldn't even say yes or no to this claim, but question the initiator.

Why does he start claiming this? On what events or evidence does he base his claims? What's the logic this guy uses from idea to quote?
What's the money he makes by claiming such things? Did he claim similar things before?...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 15, 2015, 08:44:34 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 05:10:19 am

It seems the Batteriser CEO is going to claim in this newspaper article that I'm working for Duracell  :palm:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=171199;image)

How on earth can the investors let this farce go on?

Dave, obviously Batteriser are trying to discredit you by any means necessary. Trying to cast even the slightest amount of doubt into who you are and what you're saying.

But Hannah Francis of Fairfax should know better. This "claim" that you work for Duracell is so easily disproven. Had Hannah done 5 minutes of research (by making a simple phone call to Procter & Gamble's own media team), she'd realise the credibility of Roohparvar and Batteriser isn't worth the twitter or e-mail it's written on.

@han_francisco: To save you a few minutes, the direct contact for media enquiries at P&G (owners of 'Duracell') contact detail removed by Moderator

I tend to agree there is a news-worthy story in this... it's just not the story Batteriser is trying to spin. Dave, it's time to turn Batteriser's own stupidity into a positive for you.

(Maybe http://www.abc.net.au/tv/thecheckout/ (http://www.abc.net.au/tv/thecheckout/) would be interested in doing a piece on not believing everything you read on Crowd Funding sites?)

Also, let me translate "Publishing soon" as "I might look at writing something if there is something to write about. Either way, the paper will still continue publishing as per normal".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 15, 2015, 08:58:15 am

SAN JOSE, Calif., Aug. 21, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- Batteroo Inc. today announced that David Martin, Min Park and Bob Pavey have joined its Board of Directors.

'Park currently serves as President of SK Telecom Americas, and SKTA InnoPartners, a wholly owned subsidiary of SK Telecom, Korea.'

Talk of a conflict of interest!

Is SKTA in on the scam?

http://news.sys-con.com/node/3423310 (http://news.sys-con.com/node/3423310)

It seems like they're hell-bent on releasing their pathetic gizmo on the unsuspecting American public.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MikeW on September 15, 2015, 08:59:56 am

The problem with a news story about this is simplifying the technical details to something that most people reading/watching news are going to understand or have the attention span to want to understand.

How many editors are going to run with a story about discharge curves, internal resistance, boost convertors and cut-off voltages? Technical publications? sure. Six O'clock news? No way.

If they really wanted to run something they would have to focus not on why it's not a very good product, but more about ever changing claims and dodgy certification.

Even then, what have you really got, 'Breaking news, lies being told on internet'.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: nitro2k01 on September 15, 2015, 09:05:20 am

Quote from: MikeW on September 15, 2015, 08:59:56 am

How many editors are going to run with a story about discharge curves, internal resistance, boost convertors and cut-off voltages? Technical publications? sure. Six O'clock news? No way.

Even if perhaps not six o'clock news material, what would convince Joe Schmoe is empirical battery life data. Compare the battery life with and without the dvice on as many devices as possible and show a bar graph comparing the times. That's a juicy headline.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MikeW on September 15, 2015, 09:09:16 am

I don't recall seeing many news stories simply disproving a products efficacy.

UNLESS that product is something that could potentially place users in danger as result.

'Product not very good' is not a juicy headline. 'Product endangers safety' is what editors want'

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 15, 2015, 09:10:09 am

Quote from: nitro2k01 on September 15, 2015, 09:05:20 am

Quote from: MikeW on September 15, 2015, 08:59:56 am

How many editors are going to run with a story about discharge curves, internal resistance, boost convertors and cut-off voltages? Technical publications? sure. Six O'clock news? No way.

Even if perhaps not six o'clock news material, what would convince Joe Schmoe is empirical battery life data. Compare the battery life with and without the dvice on as many devices as possible and show a bar graph comparing the times. That's a juicy headline.

Yup. The media love negativity. People read "scam" stories. Look at A Current Affair and Today Tonight for examples. The average consumer couldn't care less about the science, but they will certainly take issue when they are being ripped off (or might eventually be ripped off).

When was the last time you heard "How to avoid being ripped off, tune it at 6..." or "Australian's being suckered in by Crowd Funding... how YOU can avoid becoming a victim..."? Probably within the last 12 hours.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 15, 2015, 09:12:47 am

I've finally found who's who.

Look at that Duracell webpage:

http://professional.duracell.com/en/ultra-power (http://professional.duracell.com/en/ultra-power)

They clearly says "Ultra Power delivers up to 40% more power"

So Bateroo is in fact Big Battery, and Duracell already use half a batteriser in their battery!

I'm sure of that, and all this rant agains Dave is because they want to hire him :o

That's what they told me, or at least what The Voice told me!!! :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MikeW on September 15, 2015, 09:13:32 am

Well at best this is one for a slow news day. Just my opinion. Could well be wrong.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 15, 2015, 09:33:20 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 15, 2015, 06:25:00 am

It's like they took the first sheet from the UL report (for some other testing), and then appended two more pages that were 100% fabricated by batteroo to make it appear as if the first UL page is related to the following pages.

It looks very different from the usual UL report. And note that the first page uses a serif font and the other two page a sans-serif font. Might be not a fake, but looks like they sent the report and the test setup to them (with lots of money attached) and UL just added the first disclaimer page, and ran the test.

But for all what we know the shunt of the ampmeter could be a few ohms, or the "fresh batteries" were provided by Batteroo, too. How do they define "fresh"? Is this a technical term which you should use in a report? They didn't even noted the battery voltage with no load at test start, which can be a hint how fresh they are. Maybe they mean they were kept in the refrigerator all the time to avoid get rotten :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on September 15, 2015, 09:42:49 am

Quote from: Mr.B on September 15, 2015, 07:49:58 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 15, 2015, 07:26:24 am

The file seems to have been created on the 11th, while they uploaded their screenshot on the 5th or so?

I cannot find any record of a "Rene Moreno" at UL... The apparent author of the document.
Also, Google search tops "Rene Moreno" for me as an actor... go figure...
Batteriser - "Just an act".

What do you think of these? (Found via this search (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Per+your+request%2C+project%22+%22was+opened%22+%22Month+Day+Year%22))

http://www.crescor.com/uploads/documents/UL.pdf (http://www.crescor.com/uploads/documents/UL.pdf)
https://www.modularledsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/IP66-test-report-for-MSLB2-wagon-wheel.pdf (https://www.modularledsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/IP66-test-report-for-MSLB2-wagon-wheel.pdf)

Also, try this search (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Per+your+request%2C+project%22+%22was+opened%22) for more to compare.

It's suspicious, but I'm not going to call FAKE FAKE FAKE yet...


Edit: I just saw the creation/modification dates are after Batteriser posted the original image of the "report" (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg747370/#msg747370 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg747370/#msg747370) ) . The PDF also does not contain XMP metadata and is in v1.5 format with 1.4- compatibility. The other UL reports above have the XMP and are in 1.5 format without 1.4- compatibility. (If you want to test this out for yourself, you'll have to use Acrobat 5.0 - it will be able to open the Batteriser PDF but not those slightly older ones above.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 15, 2015, 09:54:15 am

Quote from: amyk on September 15, 2015, 09:42:49 am

Quote from: Mr.B on September 15, 2015, 07:49:58 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 15, 2015, 07:26:24 am

The file seems to have been created on the 11th, while they uploaded their screenshot on the 5th or so?

I cannot find any record of a "Rene Moreno" at UL... The apparent author of the document.
Also, Google search tops "Rene Moreno" for me as an actor... go figure...
Batteriser - "Just an act".

What do you think of these? (Found via this search (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Per+your+request%2C+project%22+%22was+opened%22+%22Month+Day+Year%22))

http://www.crescor.com/uploads/documents/UL.pdf (http://www.crescor.com/uploads/documents/UL.pdf)
https://www.modularledsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/IP66-test-report-for-MSLB2-wagon-wheel.pdf (https://www.modularledsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/IP66-test-report-for-MSLB2-wagon-wheel.pdf)

Also, try this search (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Per+your+request%2C+project%22+%22was+opened%22) for more to compare.

It's suspicious, but I'm not going to call FAKE FAKE FAKE yet...

They have the same title.. "Month Day Year"

But they managed to get the UL logo in the same place on each page, and actually have peoples names, and dates on the document :P

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on September 15, 2015, 10:00:41 am

Quote from: amyk on September 15, 2015, 09:42:49 am

What do you think of these? (Found via this search (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Per+your+request%2C+project%22+%22was+opened%22+%22Month+Day+Year%22))

http://www.crescor.com/uploads/documents/UL.pdf (http://www.crescor.com/uploads/documents/UL.pdf)
https://www.modularledsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/IP66-test-report-for-MSLB2-wagon-wheel.pdf (https://www.modularledsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/IP66-test-report-for-MSLB2-wagon-wheel.pdf)

Also, try this search (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Per+your+request%2C+project%22+%22was+opened%22) for more to compare.

It's suspicious, but I'm not going to call FAKE FAKE FAKE yet...


Edit: I just saw the creation/modification dates are after Batteriser posted the original image of the "report" (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg747370/#msg747370 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg747370/#msg747370) ) . The PDF also does not contain XMP metadata and is in v1.5 format with 1.4- compatibility. The other UL reports above have the XMP and are in 1.5 format without 1.4- compatibility. (If you want to test this out for yourself, you'll have to use Acrobat 5.0 - it will be able to open the Batteriser PDF but not those slightly older ones above.)

I am happy to stand corrected...

"It's suspicious, but I'm not going to call FAKE FAKE FAKE yet..."

Yes, I thought very suspicious. It just doesn't add up to what a ligit UL report looks like, and then you find those other two with the same watermarks that appear genuine... beats me...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 15, 2015, 10:21:38 am

The UL "report" from butteriser is probably real....

However, I'm not sure about their test results, and.... wouldn't their test procedure have required someone to sit there, and watch the GPS screen for 10+ hours?  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 10:30:11 am

Quote from: Galenbo on September 15, 2015, 08:12:05 am

I wouldn't even say yes or no to this claim, but question the initiator.
Why does he start claiming this? On what events or evidence does he base his claims? What's the logic this guy uses from idea to quote?
What's the money he makes by claiming such things? Did he claim similar things before?...

Nope, if you do that you are drawn into the debate.
I simply denied it as you can see on my twitter account, and said it was ludicrous the CEO would even suggest such a thing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 15, 2015, 11:28:14 am

Quote from: McCarthy on September 15, 2015, 06:27:07 am

Regarding 5ky's testing and the discrepancy in battery live: could it be that the GPS was using less power in his setting because it was able to actually get satellite signals through a window and didn't have to scan for signals the entire time as perhaps in Baterizers lab?

The power never changes between searching and locked. It's always a constant power draw. I thought the same also, but never saw any difference. I rebooted and tested quite a few times and never saw a difference between when the searching icon is flashing and when it finally locks.

I suppose I could take it to work and see how it does with 38 floors of steel above it shielding from the satellites and see if it changes things

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 11:56:21 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 15, 2015, 08:58:15 am

SAN JOSE, Calif., Aug. 21, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- Batteroo Inc. today announced that David Martin, Min Park and Bob Pavey have joined its Board of Directors.
'Park currently serves as President of SK Telecom Americas, and SKTA InnoPartners, a wholly owned subsidiary of SK Telecom, Korea.'
Talk of a conflict of interest!

That's the idea. VC companies very often put their own people on the board of directors. Standard business practice, nothing wrong with it, it's in their best interest to do so.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on September 15, 2015, 12:26:21 pm

Quote

Quote from: Wytnucls on Today at 06:58:15 PM

Quote

SAN JOSE, Calif., Aug. 21, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- Batteroo Inc. today announced that David Martin, Min Park and Bob Pavey have joined its Board of Directors.
'Park currently serves as President of SK Telecom Americas, and SKTA InnoPartners, a wholly owned subsidiary of SK Telecom, Korea.'
Talk of a conflict of interest!

That's the idea. VC companies very often put their own people on the board of directors. Standard business practice, nothing wrong with it, it's in their best interest to do so

The more interesting question is about the timing. why this was not done earlier? Or is this about the time SK got involved?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on September 15, 2015, 12:39:32 pm

Quote from: MikeW on September 15, 2015, 09:09:16 am

I don't recall seeing many news stories simply disproving a products efficacy.

UNLESS that product is something that could potentially place users in danger as result.

'Product not very good' is not a juicy headline. 'Product endangers safety' is what editors want'

Two words; "Advertising Revenue".

You'll hardly ever see product debunking or product safety stories in the press. Such stories could discourage potential advertisers. Always follow the money  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 15, 2015, 12:52:39 pm

Quote from: amyk on September 15, 2015, 09:42:49 am

What do you think of these? (Found via this search (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Per+your+request%2C+project%22+%22was+opened%22+%22Month+Day+Year%22))

http://www.crescor.com/uploads/documents/UL.pdf (http://www.crescor.com/uploads/documents/UL.pdf)
https://www.modularledsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/IP66-test-report-for-MSLB2-wagon-wheel.pdf (https://www.modularledsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/IP66-test-report-for-MSLB2-wagon-wheel.pdf)

Interesting that they have the same 'Month Day Year' title and 'Rene Moreno' as author.

But both of those are dated and both of them name specific people from UL (complete with all their contact details). That's a BIG difference.

Batteroo's report looks like something that was sneaked anonymously out of the back door without management approval. Nobody at UL was prepared to put their name on it.

Quote from: amyk on September 15, 2015, 09:42:49 am

Edit: I just saw the creation/modification dates are after Batteriser posted the original image of the "report"

Edit: That part doesn't worry me. Batteriser might have jumped the gun and published the page (created by them) that they knew their contact at UL was about to sign off on.

(When I say "sign off", I obviously don't mean 'sign', nobody actually put their name to it. I'm sticking with my blackmail theory until proved otherwise...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 15, 2015, 01:00:43 pm

Quote from: onlooker on September 15, 2015, 12:26:21 pm

Quote

Quote from: Wytnucls on Today at 06:58:15 PM
That's the idea. VC companies very often put their own people on the board of directors. Standard business practice, nothing wrong with it, it's in their best interest to do so

The more interesting question is about the timing. why this was not done earlier? Or is this about the time SK got involved?

He was appointed right about the time Batteroo extended the IndieGoGo campaign for an extra 30 days.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 15, 2015, 01:02:19 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 11:56:21 am

VC companies very often put their own people on the board of directors. Standard business practice, nothing wrong with it, it's in their best interest to do so.

Yep. Just in case it actually makes a lot of money

(he knows it's unlikely but it doesn't cost him anything to be on the board and he wants to be in on it if it makes millions...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 15, 2015, 01:26:03 pm

Let's assume for a moment that the UL report is real. The first page pretty much sums it up. My understanding is that they verified that the test setup and devices used gave the results they measured.

We already know the test setup was designed to give the results Batteroo wanted to show. The experimental setup was flawed from the beginning, as was their criteria for stopping the test, their method of measurement and so on.

UL is simply verifying that "as is stated" the Batteroo people are not just pulling numbers out of their arse.

It is like a Notary Public whose job it is to witness that someone signed a document on a certain day and that it was the person named. The Notary Public stamp in no way gives any credence to what is actually contained in the document... All it can attest to is that the person who signed it actually showed some government ID and was heard taking an oath and swore they read everything in the document and answered it truthfully, and that it happened on a certain date and place.

So as far as I can tell, at least from what I understand on the first page, is that UL just stood by like an observer and signed off that given this "rigged" experiment and a pile of devices and batteries that were provided by Batteroo, that they saw what Batteroo saw. Nothing more.

Imagine a magician showing you how they can make an elephant disappear. You are called in as an "observer". The magician makes sure you sit in exactly the right spot in the theatre, without any extra tools (binoculars, flashlight, xray machine) and asked to write down what you observe during the trick. The elephant is there one moment, and then "poof" it is gone. Obviously if you were given the task of actually verifying that the elephant did disappear you would have the ability to move around, look at the stage from different angles, use various instruments and cameras to detect the elephant movement and so on. Nothing of the sort happened with this "UL test". Anyone reading the first page would see this.

I guess the question is, how many people will download and read it? It's enough just to have "UL" on their website, nobody will dig any deeper, and through association alone they will be considered legit. People will assume it was tested. But as far as I can see they can't put the UL logo anywhere, so how does the legal team work their way around this, especially since it is a website and they are only using the logo in association with links to this document of theirs (not with Batteriser). Seems like they are cleverly walking that grey line down the middle that let's them get away with it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on September 15, 2015, 01:32:53 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 15, 2015, 09:12:47 am

They clearly says "Ultra Power delivers up to 40% more power"

So Bateroo is in fact Big Battery, and Duracell already use half a batteriser in their battery!

Just a small but important correction :

Quote

Duracell already use up to half a batteriser in their battery!

don't mess with the amount of batterizers :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 15, 2015, 01:45:03 pm

Quote from: edy on September 15, 2015, 01:26:03 pm

So as far as I can tell, at least from what I understand on the first page, is that UL just stood by like an observer and signed off that given this "rigged" experiment and a pile of devices and batteries that were provided by Batteroo, that they saw what Batteroo saw. Nothing more.

Yep, that's all it is.

...but it specifically says:

Quote

"UL LLC authorizes the above named company to reproduce this Report provided it is reproduced in its entirety."

Batteroo's front page doesn't show the entire document.

...it also says:

Quote

"The name, Brand or Marks of UL LLC cannot be used in any packaging, advertising, promotion or marketing relating to the
data in this Report, without UL's prior written permission."

Batteroo is definitely using UL's name to promote their product.

Do they have written permission? We don't know yet, obviously. (the person who gave them that might have given them a letter as well...)

The main problem is lack of dates/signatures. I bet somebody higher up at UL would want some answers if they saw this being used to promote snake oil.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on September 15, 2015, 02:11:53 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 15, 2015, 10:21:38 am

The UL "report" from butteriser is probably real....

However, I'm not sure about their test results, and.... wouldn't their test procedure have required someone to sit there, and watch the GPS screen for 10+ hours?  :palm:

I'm surprised that you folks are even remotely believing this crap!  (sorry, this is not meant as a personal statement on you AmmoJammo, just the general trend the posts are taking).

You don't think that the same guy behind Batteriser Fan Page (who I think probably produced this "report") is capable of doing their own Google search to get the wording that UL uses?  In fact, they probably downlaoded an actual PDF they found, converted to a Word doc and substituted their own page 2, which they had previously whipped up manually (in like a day or two after the whole "certification" issue was brought to their attention) based on what they saw.  They thought we would all buy that load of garbage, and when we didn't, they went back and did a better job of it.

This is the only way I can explain things like the font changes and the 3rd "blank" page.  And about that--there is no need to put an "INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK" third page.  You would only do this on an actual blank page, such as between sections of a document, or on the last even page, so that when printed duplex you don't have an ACTUAL blank page.  By putting a 3rd blank page, you'd end up with a 4th blank page you'd need to mark as well.

So here's what I think the timeline of events was:

1)  A comment was posted asking about FCC certification
2)  Bob initially claimed that FCC certification was not applicable
3)  He then corrected himself and said that certification was underway (meaning they were scrambling at Batteroo on creating something they could show that would "show" certification.
4)  Somewhere at Batteroo there was a miscommunication/blown assumption and the person (Batteriser Fan Page) figured it was UL certification that Bob wanted.  They did a Google search and found this type of UL evaluation report.  Screen grabbed the logo and created the rest of the initial report by hand, resulting in a pretty crappy "report" which is now page 2 in the "full" report.  Like the initial monkey videos with the el cheapo lab equipment fresh out of the box, the amateur that did this figured it would pass muster with the critics.
5)  Of course it didn't, so they set out to create a more "professional" looking report.
6)  Meanwhile Bob saw that it wasn't an FCC report after all, so he just simply announced FCC certification (in record time no doubt!) without any images or actual documentation that could be criticised.
7)  So the UL "report" author converted the orginal PDF they found on the web to a Word doc (that fixed the logo screen capture issue, yay!)  Changed the project number slightly.  Changed the inside address and salutation.  Removed the signatures because obviously that would be too easy to investigate.  Cut and paste their initial attempt at the report into page 2 (of course the font doesn't match, but they couldn't be bothered to actually fix this).  Removed the bulk of the original report, keeping the "official looking" THIS PAGE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK page, even though you would never put it on an odd page.  The cover letter section specifically prohibits using only a portion of the document--either the amateur didn't even read this (otherwise they probably would have deleted it), or they foolishly thought we wouldn't notice.
8)  Output their "masterpiece" to a PDF and post to their website.  Voila!

BTW, I won't criticize the spelling and grammatical errors (of which there are plenty).  I mean, c'mon guys, engineers are FAMOUS for having poor writing skills.  I found errors in the legit report:

Quote

RESULTS
Their [was] [was not] the presence of visible smoke and grease-laden
air from the appliance during testing.

but I mean, c'mon...getting the COMPANY name wrong?  That's just lame.

There is NO WAY this UL thing is real.  It is a complete fabrication.  Does anyone really believe that UL supplied Batteroo (or is it Batteriser, Inc. now?) with just page 2, and then it took a week or so to supply the cover letter and blank page?  No, if this was real from the start, the full 3 page "report" would have been provided and Batteroo would have access to it and could have uploaded the entire PDF right from the start.  Sorry, the  :bullshit: is off the chart on this one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tree on September 15, 2015, 02:13:14 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 15, 2015, 08:58:15 am

It seems like they're hell-bent on releasing their pathetic gizmo on the unsuspecting American public.

I think we need to alert the CDC

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 15, 2015, 02:15:28 pm

Being appointed a company board director usually comes with some financial compensation.
Coupled with the inflated management team, that's an awful lot of people on the payroll already, for a tiny company that hasn't yet released its $2.50 flawed product.

SKTA probably owns a large share of the Batteroo business and, if they are issuing guidance, are as much to blame for the misinformation being fed to the public.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 15, 2015, 02:16:10 pm

Quote from: lpickup on September 15, 2015, 02:11:53 pm

I'm surprised that you folks are even remotely believing this crap!  (sorry, this is not meant as a personal statement on you AmmoJammo, just the general trend the posts are taking).

You don't think that the same guy behind Batteriser Fan Page (who I think probably produced this "report") is capable of doing their own Google search to get the wording that UL uses?  In fact, they probably downlaoded an actual PDF they found, converted to a Word doc and substituted their own page 2, which they had previously whipped up manually (in like a day or two after the whole "certification" issue was brought to their attention) based on what they saw.  They thought we would all buy that load of garbage, and when we didn't, they went back and did a better job of it.

They are not so stupid to do so.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 15, 2015, 02:16:45 pm

Quote from: tree on September 15, 2015, 02:13:14 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 15, 2015, 08:58:15 am

It seems like they're hell-bent on releasing their pathetic gizmo on the unsuspecting American public.

I think we need to alert the CDC

Vaccination only requires a dose of common sense. ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 15, 2015, 02:36:02 pm

Except that when I enquired about the project with UL, without mentioning Batteriser in my email, the UL response had this in the subject line:

Batteriser Inc. Project#4787059213 Inquiry

So, the project number is legitimate and Batteroo is known as Batteriser Inc. at UL.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 15, 2015, 03:00:45 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 15, 2015, 02:36:02 pm

Except that when I enquired about the project with UL, without mentioning Batteriser in my email, the UL response had this in the subject line:

Batteriser Inc. Project#4787059213 Inquiry

So, the project number is legitimate.

I've seen employees at large computer manufacturers slip a few machines out the back door in exchange for a bottle of whiskey.

I'd lean more towards an unscrupulous UL employee than somebody at batteriser faking the whole thing. Maybe somebody at Batteroo has a friend who knows somebody at UL who...

Lack of dates/signatures though? There's no way that happened legitimately. UL's entire business is based around record keeping and accountability.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 15, 2015, 03:07:15 pm

I just got a reply from UL:

Quote

Thank you for taking the time to contact the UL Market Surveillance Department.  We appreciate your concern and assistance.

We are working with Batteriser to clarify the information being posted.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 15, 2015, 03:14:14 pm

Automated reply?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 15, 2015, 03:40:06 pm

Quote from: firewalker on September 15, 2015, 03:14:14 pm

Automated reply?

It does say "We are working with Batteriser..." so it's not a robot reply.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 15, 2015, 03:46:59 pm

Not, a robot. A "stock reply", would be a better use of words. I believe another user got the exact same reply.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 15, 2015, 03:57:24 pm

Quote from: lpickup on September 15, 2015, 02:11:53 pm

Quote

RESULTS
Their [was] [was not] the presence of visible smoke and grease-laden
air from the appliance during testing.

but I mean, c'mon...getting the COMPANY name wrong?  That's just lame.

There is NO WAY this UL thing is real.  It is a complete fabrication.  Does anyone really believe that UL supplied Batteroo (or is it Batteriser, Inc. now?) with just page 2, and then it took a week or so to supply the cover letter and blank page?  No, if this was real from the start, the full 3 page "report" would have been provided and Batteroo would have access to it and could have uploaded the entire PDF right from the start.  Sorry, the  :bullshit: is off the chart on this one.

I don't agree with that, if it was a fabrication this error wouldn't be there, it's just show how the UL care about this test and wanted to get rid of it as soon as possible. I'm pretty sure this document is legitimate in the way it really come from the UL, the first and maybe the last page are from UL, the second is from the test document from batteroo nothing more. This is not a real test, batteroo have just paid to get the first page, but didn't take the full service that mean signed report, so this is just basically crap and a "public notary" work like someone explain on this thread, nothing more.

And if it was fabricated, why all the clauses about not using the UL name for marketing purpose, that wouldn't make any sense.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on September 15, 2015, 04:26:10 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 15, 2015, 03:57:24 pm

Quote from: lpickup on September 15, 2015, 02:11:53 pm

Quote

RESULTS
Their [was] [was not] the presence of visible smoke and grease-laden
air from the appliance during testing.

but I mean, c'mon...getting the COMPANY name wrong?  That's just lame.

There is NO WAY this UL thing is real.  It is a complete fabrication.  Does anyone really believe that UL supplied Batteroo (or is it Batteriser, Inc. now?) with just page 2, and then it took a week or so to supply the cover letter and blank page?  No, if this was real from the start, the full 3 page "report" would have been provided and Batteroo would have access to it and could have uploaded the entire PDF right from the start.  Sorry, the  :bullshit: is off the chart on this one.

I don't agree with that, if it was a fabrication this error wouldn't be there, it's just show how the UL care about this test and wanted to get rid of it as soon as possible.

Let me clarify:  the "their" vs "there" error I quoted came from a legitimate UL report that someone posted above.  I only used that example to illustrate that even in the legitimate reports, typos exist.  The reason I pointed that out was because people were focusing in on the typos on page 2 as evidence that the report was fake (e.g. the "batter" holder).  I don't think typos alone raise the document into the "unbelievable" category, so that was the point I was trying to make.

Why all the legal clauses about not using the UL name, etc?  Again, I think that Batteriser Fan Page simply grabbed an actual UL report and used it as-is for his own report.  He probably didn't read the actual text to determine that Batteroo had already violated the rules, but even if he did, what can he do about it?  He's got to keep it as intact as possible to avoid it coming off looking like a complete forgery.

So okay, several posters have subsequently said that the project # appears legit and tied to a company named "Batteriser, Inc."  So, perhaps they did actually open a project with UL, but I still maintain that this is not an official report to come out of that project.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 15, 2015, 04:38:58 pm

If the batteriser fan (and as the document is on the IGG and baterro website it has nothing to do with a "fan" fabrication.

No I still think that this has been done by a real UL lab that didn't really care about that and make this report by an intern telling him to do this quick and dirty.


Edit:

By the way, is that me or the LinkedIn account for the Mitchell Nishi is strange?
No mention about Bateroo, and the photo apart from the background look suspiciously the same as the one on the batteroo website

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=171277;image) vs (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=171279;image)

Apart from some slight color changes, he is in the exact same position, eye closed the same way etc...

Really suspicious :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drws on September 15, 2015, 04:49:37 pm

UL does say all the test data is in the attached report...
Page 3 is all the data that UL found supporting their claims!  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on September 15, 2015, 04:57:59 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 15, 2015, 03:57:24 pm

And if it was fabricated, why all the clauses about not using the UL name for marketing purpose, that wouldn't make any sense.

to be fair, it does not say they cant use it for marketing, it says:

Quote

The issuance of this report in no way implies Listing, Classification or Recognition by UL LLC and does not authorize the use of UL Listing, Classification or Recognition Marks or any other reference to UL LLC. on the product or system. UL LLC authorizes the above named company to reproduce this Report provided it is reproduced in its entirety. The name, Brand or Marks of UL LLC cannot be used in any packaging, advertising, promotion or marketing relating to the data in this Report, without UL's prior written permission.

so they cant put a UL logo on the product

but they can use it on packaging & marketing because they probably have written permission to do so

its not that hard to figure out :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 15, 2015, 05:20:04 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 15, 2015, 04:38:58 pm

Apart from some slight color changes, he is in the exact same position, eye closed the same way etc...

Really suspicious :D

Photoshop...all the batterizer photos have the same green background photoshopped in.

Notice that there's no photos of actual Batteriser offices, Batteriser workshop, etc. in any of their websites or videos.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 15, 2015, 05:25:10 pm

The photo is not suspicious. Maybe they asked him for a photo and he provided a stock one this purpose.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 15, 2015, 05:50:05 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on September 15, 2015, 05:34:03 pm

Quote from: firewalker on September 15, 2015, 05:25:10 pm

The photo is not suspicious. Maybe they asked him for a photo and he provided a stock one this purpose.

Then why change the bacground?

To match the other photos on the web site.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 15, 2015, 06:24:08 pm

Could we call a halt to the NCIS investigation?  This is turning about as batty as the accusation of Dave being in the employ of BIG BATTERY.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on September 15, 2015, 06:25:32 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 15, 2015, 06:24:08 pm

Could we call a halt to the NCIS investigation?  This is turning about as batty as the accusation of Dave being in the employ of BIG BATTERY.

Yes, good idea. Back to the electronics.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pesshau on September 15, 2015, 08:11:17 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 07:24:06 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 15, 2015, 05:55:54 am

It's still there as I write this: "UL, one of the oldest and most prestigious Labs, has performed independent Performance testing of a Garmin Golf GPS with and without Batteriser showing approx. 600% life extension"

For the record:

I just thought I'd mention that there are snapshots of the Batteriser.com front page stored with the Wayback Machine. I'm getting an error message now when trying to store their latest front page, but there is a snapshot from 12 September:

http://web.archive.org/web/20150912005058/http://batteriser.com/ (http://web.archive.org/web/20150912005058/http://batteriser.com/)

It's nice to have an unbiased source for future reference.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 15, 2015, 08:57:04 pm

Quote from: lpickup on September 15, 2015, 02:11:53 pm

This is the only way I can explain things like the font changes and the 3rd "blank" page.  And about that--there is no need to put an "INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK" third page.  You would only do this on an actual blank page, such as between sections of a document, or on the last even page, so that when printed duplex you don't have an ACTUAL blank page.  By putting a 3rd blank page, you'd end up with a 4th blank page you'd need to mark as well.

Nope, most of the reports changed fonts from the cover letter, to the report, and I also found another one or two with "this page is intentionally left blank"

It was me that first questioned the dates, and names of the file! But I'm not convinced they're stupid enough to fake a UL report....

The fact that the logo changed location does have me curious though....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kire Pûdsje on September 15, 2015, 09:37:49 pm

One of batterisers images is showing (http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/presale.jpg) what looks like an xbox one controller.
I found the following statement here (http://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/accessories/wireless-controller-rechargeable-batteries)

Quote

While you can use standard AA (LR6) batteries in your Xbox One Wireless Controller, standard rechargeable AA batteries are not recommended.

Maybe Microsoft wants to sell their own battery packs, or is this statement indicative of a high cut-off voltage?
I try to follow this thread, but did not read every post, anyone measured this controller yet?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: joseph.anand on September 15, 2015, 09:56:44 pm

Quote from: Kire Pûdsje on September 15, 2015, 09:37:49 pm

One of batterisers images is showing (http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/presale.jpg) what looks like an xbox one controller.
I found the following statement here (http://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/accessories/wireless-controller-rechargeable-batteries)

Quote

While you can use standard AA (LR6) batteries in your Xbox One Wireless Controller, standard rechargeable AA batteries are not recommended.

Maybe Microsoft wants to sell their own battery packs, or is this statement indicative of a high cut-off voltage?
I try to follow this thread, but did not read every post, anyone measured this controller yet?

I think by "standard" rechargeable they mean Alkaline (LR6) rechargeables and not NiMH. Further down the same page says

Quote

Note: Rechargeable (LR6) AA batteries do not charge while in the Xbox One Wireless Controller. Only the Xbox One battery that comes with the Play & Charge Kit can charge while in the controller. Recharge standard AA batteries by the method recommended by the manufacturer.

Based on my interaction with my relatives that stay in the US I have to clearly differentiate NiMH from rechargeable's since they consider rechargeable = rechargeable Alkaline.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kire Pûdsje on September 15, 2015, 10:04:48 pm

Being from the Netherlands, I assumed "standard rechargable " to mean NiCd.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 15, 2015, 10:05:41 pm

The UL test didn't measure voltage or current, therefore, the batteries, (with and without batteriser) should have been directly inserted into the GPS, as there was no reason to have them external....

The UL test isn't even testing the butteriser, but in fact, their test setup....

And what the UL test has confirmed, is that the test setup and procedure is completely flawed, and giving false results...

I don't think this is quite what butteriser had in mind  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: joseph.anand on September 15, 2015, 10:28:23 pm

Quote from: Kire Pûdsje on September 15, 2015, 10:04:48 pm

Being from the Netherlands, I assumed "standard rechargable " to mean NiCd.

In India standard AA/AAA rechargeable means NiMH. NiCd's are for "cordless phones".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 10:29:40 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 15, 2015, 02:15:28 pm

Being appointed a company board director usually comes with some financial compensation.
Coupled with the inflated management team, that's an awful lot of people on the payroll already, for a tiny company that hasn't yet released its $2.50 flawed product.

According to the Indiegogo page they have 8 people, not including the board.
They would not survive without the VC funding. The indieogo money won't last long at all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fsck on September 15, 2015, 10:31:38 pm

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 15, 2015, 10:28:23 pm

Quote from: Kire Pûdsje on September 15, 2015, 10:04:48 pm

Being from the Netherlands, I assumed "standard rechargable " to mean NiCd.

In India standard AA/AAA rechargeable means NiMH. NiCd's are for "cordless phones".

you won't find NiCd commonly in canada either, so rechargeable would mean NiMH here too.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: wraper on September 15, 2015, 10:35:31 pm

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 15, 2015, 09:56:44 pm

Based on my interaction with my relatives that stay in the US I have to clearly differentiate NiMH from rechargeable's since they consider rechargeable = rechargeable Alkaline.

I've yet to see rechargeable Alkaline. Although they seem to exist according to Wikipedia, for sure they are not to be considered as standard type of rechargeables. Good luck to even finding a charger which officially supports them.

Quote

Being from the Netherlands, I assumed "standard rechargable " to mean NiCd.

Not for last 10 years, NiCd batteries are relic of the past. The vast majority of rechargeable AA batteries are NiMh.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Davey_Jonez on September 15, 2015, 10:38:03 pm

Quote from: Mr.B on September 15, 2015, 08:08:34 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 15, 2015, 08:03:59 am

Why they'd add a blank page to a 2 page 'report'? That's a different question...

It is because they faked the report in MS Word... Suffered from "font-itis" between pages... Ran out of BS ideas at the start of that page.

Wrong as usual.
Muppets are wrong a lot.
UL did the test and of course you will say the test is rigged so UL ran a rigged test.
Grow up and accept you are wrong sometimes. It is not a scam, you lose.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 15, 2015, 10:41:55 pm

So "Davey", how did butteriser manage to break the gps so it only ran for 2 hours? Lol

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 10:45:31 pm

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 15, 2015, 10:38:03 pm

Wrong as usual.
Muppets are wrong a lot.
UL did the test and of course you will say the test is rigged so UL ran a rigged test.
Grow up and accept you are wrong sometimes. It is not a scam, you lose.

Going to tell us who you are?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 15, 2015, 10:48:55 pm

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 15, 2015, 10:38:03 pm

Wrong as usual.
Muppets are wrong a lot.
UL did the test and of course you will say the test is rigged so UL ran a rigged test.
Grow up and accept you are wrong sometimes. It is not a scam, you lose.

Give Davey a break.  He is probably stuck in his locker.  A euphemism for drowning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Jones%27_Locker     :-DD  or   :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 10:49:02 pm

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 13, 2015, 04:39:54 am

Sounds more like chicken shit. Cannot discuss anything without your blog goons?

Chicken shit is hiding behind an anonymous fake account and name.
Tell us who you are and you might have some legitimacy.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: joseph.anand on September 15, 2015, 10:49:07 pm

Quote from: wraper on September 15, 2015, 10:35:31 pm

I've yet to see rechargeable Alkaline. Although they seem to exist according to Wikipedia, for sure they are not to be considered as standard type of rechargeables. Good luck to even finding a charger which officially supports them.

Till a few years back the only rechargeable's  Duracell and Energizer were selling were rechargeable Alkalines in the US. "NiMH" was generally considered Japanese Technology. Anyway this discussion got me spending some more time online and discovering that NiCd actually use/used an alkaline electrolyte. Any battery chemistry experts her to verify this?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: nitro2k01 on September 15, 2015, 10:51:25 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 10:45:31 pm

Going to tell us who you are?

I can't know, but I'm guessing it's this guy, or one of his fanboys:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fvJUjeojG0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fvJUjeojG0)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 10:51:55 pm

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 15, 2015, 10:38:03 pm

It is not a scam, you lose.

No, it's not a scam, it's just a flashy product with grossly exaggerated marketing claims that can't be backed up with any real engineering data and repeatable tests.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 15, 2015, 10:56:41 pm

I have a Ray O Vac  reusable alkaline Renewal rechargeable D cell battery.  It will not die!  Every year I take it out and discharge it and recharge it.  Every time I cannot believe it and double check it.

Of course the other dozen Renewal batteries that I had failed many years ago.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on September 15, 2015, 10:59:33 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 10:45:31 pm

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 15, 2015, 10:38:03 pm

Wrong as usual.
Muppets are wrong a lot.
UL did the test and of course you will say the test is rigged so UL ran a rigged test.
Grow up and accept you are wrong sometimes. It is not a scam, you lose.

Going to tell us who you are?

I think she's Big Monkey. She got upset because you did put probes inside the anus of her little Clamping Monkey.

Now she's trying some very sophisticated plot to disprove you. I'm sure!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: helius on September 15, 2015, 11:04:16 pm

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 15, 2015, 10:49:07 pm

Till a few years back the only rechargeable's  Duracell and Energizer were selling were rechargeable Alkalines in the US. "NiMH" was generally considered Japanese Technology. Anyway this discussion got me spending some more time online and discovering that NiCd actually use/used an alkaline electrolyte. Any battery chemistry experts her to verify this?

That's correct, rechargeable alkalines were commonly seen during the 1980s. They had a reputation for leaking or exploding during charging, and many devices from that period carried warnings not to use them.
NiCd uses potassium hydroxide as an electrolyte, which as you say is alkaline (basic). When NiCd cells leak, the CO₂ in the air reacts with it to form potassium carbonate, seen as blue crystals. Most damage to devices with NiCds happens when they leak in a sealed chamber without air exchange, so the KOH remains to react with metals in the device.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: isaiahA on September 15, 2015, 11:06:52 pm

Quote

I think she's Big Monkey. She got upset because you did put probes inside the anus of her little Clamping Monkey.

Now she's trying some very sophisticated plot to disprove you. I'm sure!

Quote

Chicken shit is hiding behind an anonymous fake account and name.
Tell us who you are and you might have some legitimacy.

Quote

Give Davey a break.  He is probably stuck in his locker.  A euphemism for drowning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Jones%27_Locker     :-DD  or   :palm:

:-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: joseph.anand on September 15, 2015, 11:11:56 pm

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 15, 2015, 10:38:03 pm

Wrong as usual.
Muppets are wrong a lot.
UL did the test and of course you will say the test is rigged so UL ran a rigged test.
Grow up and accept you are wrong sometimes. It is not a scam, you lose.

When "test" and "theory/math" contradict each other and there are other tests that do confirm the math then there is something seriously wrong with the test contradicting the math. When you have a product that does serve a particular purpose and then you start making ridiculous claims to market the product even to the extent of ditching common (engineering) sense in attempting to justify your claims, you are just making life more difficult for yourselves. Any (little) credibility Frank had with the EE community on EEVblog vanished with the technical video the "Batteriser Fan Page" posted. I would rate cat videos higher than that video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 15, 2015, 11:20:56 pm

Quote from: Fsck on September 15, 2015, 10:31:38 pm

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 15, 2015, 10:28:23 pm

Quote from: Kire Pûdsje on September 15, 2015, 10:04:48 pm

Being from the Netherlands, I assumed "standard rechargable " to mean NiCd.

In India standard AA/AAA rechargeable means NiMH. NiCd's are for "cordless phones".

you won't find NiCd commonly in canada either, so rechargeable would mean NiMH here too.

Quote from: wraper on September 15, 2015, 10:35:31 pm

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 15, 2015, 09:56:44 pm

Based on my interaction with my relatives that stay in the US I have to clearly differentiate NiMH from rechargeable's since they consider rechargeable = rechargeable Alkaline.

I've yet to see rechargeable Alkaline. Although they seem to exist according to Wikipedia, for sure they are not to be considered as standard type of rechargeables. Good luck to even finding a charger which officially supports them.

Quote

Being from the Netherlands, I assumed "standard rechargable " to mean NiCd.

Not for last 10 years, NiCd batteries are relic of the past. The vast majority of rechargeable AA batteries are NiMh.

What?!  Are you guys all nuts?  :)

- NiCd are readily available in Canada just like NiMH, though most of the super-expensive retail brands like Duracell and Energizer you will normally find NiMH being pushed by the retail stores because they can charge more for that bit of extra capacity and they are easier to build with lower self-discharge characteristics which is important for low-drain devices like a remote control.  NiCd is far superior for heavy cycle heavy loads and huge multi-cell packs of them are even used in some off-grid or battery backup inverter setups.
- Every cordless phone I've seen in the past 10 years that uses standard cells comes with NiMH cells in them.
- Alkalines that are specifically designed to be recharged (like PureEnergy, which was developed in Canada) are readily available also, though you can partially recharge any standard alkaline cells several times as long as they haven't been ultra-deep discharged by somehting like a Batteriser before the internal elements just aren't there anymore.  If you try to recharge ones that have been over-discharged, that's when they leak.  They just aren't designed to be robust enough (the case and seals or the anode and cathode) for many charge/discharge cycles since they're intended to be discharged once and discarded.
- Alkaline rechargers are readily availble also...  Where are you guys looking?  :)
- Just like NiCd or NiMH, you can recharge alkalines using your bench power supply, just go nice and slow and limit the current to a nice low value (and don't accidentally leave them for days and days to ultra-overcharge...)  :)  lol

All batteries are just electrochemical cells, which is chemistry, which is just a a glorified form of Physics.  :)

When I think "rechargeable" in a size like AA, I think NiCd first, then NiMH by default....  Alkaline rechargeables only when specified as "alkaline rechargeable" but everyones's probably going to think of whatever they personally use.

NiCd is used in things like power tools because they have FAR better cycle life at high charge/discharge rates than NiMH and are significantly cheaper for close to the same capacity.

NiCd and NiMH can be charged in the same chargers at low charge rates, it's only when you get to rapid chargers that you need to do it a bit differently for the two chemistries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on September 15, 2015, 11:30:36 pm

Quote from: drussell on September 15, 2015, 11:20:56 pm

snip
NiCd is used in things like power tools...
snip

I haven't seen NiCd in power tools for years.
Every battery powered tool I have purchased in the last 8 to 10 years has had Li-ion.


EDIT: Spelling

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 15, 2015, 11:48:54 pm

As much as I hate to feed the trolls.....

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 15, 2015, 10:38:03 pm

Wrong as usual.
Muppets are wrong a lot.
UL did the test and of course you will say the test is rigged so UL ran a rigged test.
Grow up and accept you are wrong sometimes. It is not a scam, you lose.

The UL did the tests on the Batteriser using the test jig and methodology supplied by Batteroo and reported the results.

If the test was completely invalid (which I personally believe it was) that's not the UL's fault.  They did exactly what they were asked to and supplied a (humourous) report to that effect.  There is absolutely no scientific data provided in that report, nor has there been any credible scientific evidence or any valid data at all supplied by Bateroo regarding the Batteriser.  We're still patiently waiting.

As for who's wrong or needs to grow up, I think everyone with any kind of professionalism and credibility in this industry will find that information to be glaringly self-evident...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 15, 2015, 11:51:14 pm

Quote

Every battery powered tool I have purchased in the last 8 to 10 years has had Li-ion.

Not everyone is lucky as you.  My tools are not Li-ion  :(

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on September 15, 2015, 11:58:03 pm

Quote from: ez24 on September 15, 2015, 11:51:14 pm

Quote

Every battery powered tool I have purchased in the last 8 to 10 years has had Li-ion.

Not everyone is lucky as you.  My tools are not Li-ion  :(

Thats a bit sad...
Li-ion is just about all you can buy in New Zealand.
I am pretty sure you would have great difficulty purchasing a modern tool with NiCd batteries in NZ. I am quite happy to be corrected on this of course.
In the last 12 months I have purchased: Screwdriver, Drill, Small Circular Saw and Angle Grinder (padlock master key) and all of them are Li-ion.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 16, 2015, 12:01:10 am

Quote from: Mr.B on September 15, 2015, 11:30:36 pm

I haven't seen NiCd in power tools for years.
Every battery powered tool I have purchased in the last 8 to 10 years has had Li-ion.

Most decent tools are available with a choice of batteries.  NiCd or Li-ion...

I've tried a couple of the Li-ions on my Ryobi gear and while they did provide a nice runtime and were lighter than the NiCd packs, they only lasted about 15-25 recharge cycles before the electronics detected some problem with the cells and disabled the ability to charge.  After being bitten by that a few times I said screw it, I'm going back to the NiCds.

Considering the full-size Li-ion packs run $90-110 and I can pick up a two pack of NiCDs for $49.99, it's a no-brainer.  I'm sticking with the NiCd packs.  I have about 20 of them.  (Yes, I use them a lot...  I have two single chargers, a 6-port charger, circular saws, a sawzall, drills, flashlight, even a whipper-snipper and a hedge clipper.)  Some of the ones I'm still using are over 10 years old and still hold some decent charge.  When a pack gets tired, I open them up, find the weak cells and replace them with good ones from another pack...  They tend to work for a few more years almost as good as new ones once you get rid of the worst cells since they're all in series so (the weakest link and all that....)

You can't do that with Li-ion packs.  You'd have to have a jig to tap into the microcontroller and reset it to working condidion after "fixing" a pack, that's just not practical for the average person.  Some of my the cells in some of my bodged-together packs have thousands of cycles on them and the cells just won't die.  The cells in all the ones I have are made by Panasonic.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 16, 2015, 12:04:43 am

Quote from: drussell on September 15, 2015, 11:48:54 pm

As much as I hate to feed the trolls.....

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 15, 2015, 10:38:03 pm

Wrong as usual.
Muppets are wrong a lot.
UL did the test and of course you will say the test is rigged so UL ran a rigged test.
Grow up and accept you are wrong sometimes. It is not a scam, you lose.

The UL did the tests on the Batteriser using the test jig and methodology supplied by Batteroo and reported the results.

If the test was completely invalid (which I personally believe it was) that's not the UL's fault.  They did exactly what they were asked to and supplied a (humourous) report to that effect.  There is absolutely no scientific data provided in that report, nor has there been any credible scientific evidence or any valid data at all supplied by Bateroo regarding the Batteriser.  We're still patiently waiting.

As for who's wrong or needs to grow up, I think everyone with any kind of professionalism and credibility in this industry will find that information to be glaringly self-evident...

The UL report is based on a client-provided test fixture that is designed to produce an incorrect result  either by ignorance or intent. The "two hour GPS life" result been so thoroughly disproved, and is so easily disproved with modest means, that only fools would continue to stand by such a claim at this date.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fsck on September 16, 2015, 12:08:54 am

Quote from: drussell on September 15, 2015, 11:20:56 pm

Quote from: Fsck on September 15, 2015, 10:31:38 pm

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 15, 2015, 10:28:23 pm

Quote from: Kire Pûdsje on September 15, 2015, 10:04:48 pm

Being from the Netherlands, I assumed "standard rechargable " to mean NiCd.

In India standard AA/AAA rechargeable means NiMH. NiCd's are for "cordless phones".

you won't find NiCd commonly in canada either, so rechargeable would mean NiMH here too.

Quote from: wraper on September 15, 2015, 10:35:31 pm

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 15, 2015, 09:56:44 pm

Based on my interaction with my relatives that stay in the US I have to clearly differentiate NiMH from rechargeable's since they consider rechargeable = rechargeable Alkaline.

I've yet to see rechargeable Alkaline. Although they seem to exist according to Wikipedia, for sure they are not to be considered as standard type of rechargeables. Good luck to even finding a charger which officially supports them.

Quote

Being from the Netherlands, I assumed "standard rechargable " to mean NiCd.

Not for last 10 years, NiCd batteries are relic of the past. The vast majority of rechargeable AA batteries are NiMh.

What?!  Are you guys all nuts?  :)

- NiCd are readily available in Canada just like NiMH, though most of the super-expensive retail brands like Duracell and Energizer you will normally find NiMH being pushed by the retail stores because they can charge more for that bit of extra capacity and they are easier to build with lower self-discharge characteristics which is important for low-drain devices like a remote control.  NiCd is far superior for heavy cycle heavy loads and huge multi-cell packs of them are even used in some off-grid or battery backup inverter setups.

for me, common would be somewhere a university student without a car would go. this basically limits it to the popular malls and anything really close to public transit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on September 16, 2015, 12:15:18 am

Quote from: drussell on September 16, 2015, 12:01:10 am

snip
The cells in all the ones I have are made by Panasonic.
snip

I agree with you totally.
I have a 22 year old Panasonic NiCd battery drill. I have replaced the battery pack once.
It does not get a lot of use however.

Mostly I was just saying that Li-ion is just about the only battery technology available in New Zealand for hand held power tools.
I have not (yet) suffered your issue of premature failure with Li-ion.
My oldest Li-ion battery drill is about 9 years and still going strong.
I am only a weekend warrior though, so it does not get a hammering.

Sorry, I am clouding this thread with chat. I will shut up now.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 16, 2015, 01:36:17 am

It is a cumulative average designed to be completely deceptive.

For example, 60% of batteries had on average 55% capacity left. Now add on the next 10% of batteries and average that in with the top 60% group, and the average of these 70% top batteries now drops down to 47%.

Let's think about this for a minute.

If I have 100 batteries, I sort them and pick my top 60 and their average is 55% remaining capacity. Ok. I find my next 10 best batteries and include them in my average so I have 70 batteries.

Guess what? If those additional 10 batteries have ZERO capacity left, the weighted average goes from 55% to 47%.

(60 x 55 + 10 x 0)/70 = 47

If you "reverse-engineer" that table and pull out each step of the cumulative average and notice what it does to the previous step average, you can see how it actually works. I'll post a spreadsheet later.

When they say 100% of batteries have 33% of capacity left, that is an AVERAGE! Actually, a good deal of them (like the bottom 40%) have ZERO capacity... All they do is pull the cumulative average down until they get to 33%... just like I showed what happened from when I included 60 batteries and then added the next worst 10 batteries.

Look at the plot in the study after the chart and notice how things hit bottom for most of the lines after about 50-60% of batteries are included. It is more accurate to say almost half of the batteries had no capacity left, all they did was pull down an average, which is completely different than saying all 100 batteries have 33% capacity left.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on September 16, 2015, 01:48:12 am

Hi McCarthy and the group,

You asked:

So why does Batteriser claim "Tap into 80%" if there is only 33% in average left?

Also keep in mind: this study is 13 years old. Today even more devices have a booster build in. Hence these days the amount left in batteries is probably less than 25%. That’s far away from 80%.



The Batteriser guys took the top  two lines which says that 30% of the batteries discarded had 84% of the energy left.

They make the claim that 100% of the energy could be extracted from these batteries using the Batteriser. Since only 16% of the energy was extracted the devices have the potential to last 84/16 x longer  5x longer.

If you take only the top line you get 93/7 time longer 13x longer.

This proposition is flawed. It assumes that the ONLY reason that the batteries were discarded is because they no longer worked in a product.

I have discarded batteries because:

1) they are old

2) I am putting some thing away for storage and I don't want them to leak

3) Some thing breaks and I try new batteries etc....


Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 16, 2015, 01:51:54 am

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 15, 2015, 10:38:03 pm

Wrong as usual.
Muppets are wrong a lot.
UL did the test and of course you will say the test is rigged so UL ran a rigged test.
Grow up and accept you are wrong sometimes. It is not a scam, you lose.

We all know who is he. And judging by his level of (im)maturity and use of the English language, I'd say he's no older than 16.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on September 16, 2015, 02:44:41 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 16, 2015, 01:51:54 am

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 15, 2015, 10:38:03 pm

Wrong as usual.
Muppets are wrong a lot.
UL did the test and of course you will say the test is rigged so UL ran a rigged test.
Grow up and accept you are wrong sometimes. It is not a scam, you lose.

We all know who is he. And judging by his level of (im)maturity and use of the English language, I'd say he's no older than 16.

:-DD :popcorn:  :clap:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 16, 2015, 02:56:11 am

Hi folks,

I've put together the attached EXCEL spreadsheet showing why the Zinniker tables are so confusing. They are CUMULATIVE plots. That means as you keep adding batteries you average the "capacity" in with the previous.

The EXCEL spreadsheet "reverse-engineers" the Zinniker table and shows the ACTUAL mAh contribution of each successive 10% of batteries they added. Remember the cumulative distribution plot is a sorted plot.

The calculations show that a good 40% of their batteries had ZERO REMAINING CAPACITY. That means if you go to a garbage bin, and you pick out 100 batteries at random, you will find 40 are COMPLETELY DEAD. That is what Zinniker found too, it was just presented in a way that hides it due to the "averaging" effect. You can even see it better by flipping the cumulative sort from high to low, to low to high after pulling out the raw data for each step-wise increment of batteries from the original table.

Have a look for yourself (here is a screenshot of the full Excel file, also included):

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on September 16, 2015, 03:02:46 am

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 15, 2015, 10:49:07 pm

Quote from: wraper on September 15, 2015, 10:35:31 pm

I've yet to see rechargeable Alkaline. Although they seem to exist according to Wikipedia, for sure they are not to be considered as standard type of rechargeables. Good luck to even finding a charger which officially supports them.

Till a few years back the only rechargeable's  Duracell and Energizer were selling were rechargeable Alkalines in the US. "NiMH" was generally considered Japanese Technology. Anyway this discussion got me spending some more time online and discovering that NiCd actually use/used an alkaline electrolyte. Any battery chemistry experts her to verify this?

I've lived in the US my entire life, and never seen rechargeable alkalines. Rechargeable batteries were NiCd, but mostly NiMH now.

From what I'm seeing, rechargeable alkaline is proprietary tech and neither Duracell or Energizer have licensed it. Rayovac is the only major brand that has, and they don't seem to sell them in the US.

The tech was only introduced in 1992. Older products had warnings about trying to recharge standard alkalines, not using rechargeable alkalines.

It doesn't sound very good, either. Apparently rechargeable alkaline only recharge to 60% of initial capacity if fully discharged, and continue losing significant capacity every cycle.

It IS possible, though not recommended, to recharge standard alkaline batteries. Perhaps that's what people were thinking of?

On another note, Milwaukee tools does still offer NiCd packs but its interesting that the NiCd packs only have a 1 year warranty while the lithium packs in the same form factor have 3 year warranties.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 16, 2015, 03:33:23 am

Quote

Rayovac is the only major brand that has, and they don't seem to sell them in the US.

I bought mine in the 90s in San Diego.  As far as I know SD is in the US.  FYI they are heavy.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Joule Thief on September 16, 2015, 03:53:12 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 16, 2015, 01:51:54 am

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 15, 2015, 10:38:03 pm

Wrong as usual.
Muppets are wrong a lot.
UL did the test and of course you will say the test is rigged so UL ran a rigged test.
Grow up and accept you are wrong sometimes. It is not a scam, you lose.

We all know who is he. And judging by his level of (im)maturity and use of the English language, I'd say he's no older than 16.

Mentally, yes. No doubt.
Chronologically, who can say?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Joule Thief on September 16, 2015, 04:00:21 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on September 16, 2015, 01:48:12 am

Hi McCarthy and the group,

You asked:

So why does Batteriser claim "Tap into 80%" if there is only 33% in average left?

Also keep in mind: this study is 13 years old. Today even more devices have a booster build in. Hence these days the amount left in batteries is probably less than 25%. That’s far away from 80%.



The Batteriser guys took the top  two lines which says that 30% of the batteries discarded had 84% of the energy left.

They make the claim that 100% of the energy could be extracted from these batteries using the Batteriser. Since only 16% of the energy was extracted the devices have the potential to last 84/16 x longer  5x longer.

If you take only the top line you get 93/7 time longer 13x longer.

This proposition is flawed. It assumes that the ONLY reason that the batteries were discarded is because they no longer worked in a product.

I have discarded batteries because:

1) they are old

2) I am putting some thing away for storage and I don't want them to leak

3) Some thing breaks and I try new batteries etc....


Jay_Diddy_B

Back in my days as a field rep, if I had to fly cross country at odd hours and knew beforehand I would be isolated in hospital operating suites repairing instrumentation, I would always check my meters before leaving home. I would replace the batteries in my Fluke 87's and YSI temp meters as a precaution, just to avoid ANY issues when I arrived on site. I KNOW I threw away many fully functional batteries in these meters and also (in the day) in my pager.  Yea, pager, I'm that old!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on September 16, 2015, 04:14:35 am

^ Did you pick your forum name based on prior guilt from throwing away all those mostly full batteries...  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Joule Thief on September 16, 2015, 04:40:38 am

Quote from: Mr.B on September 16, 2015, 04:14:35 am

^ Did you pick your forum name based on prior guilt from throwing away all those mostly full batteries...  ;D

Very nice!  I see what you did there.

When clients were being billed over $300 and hour, stopping your troubleshooting and loosing your train of thought to diagnose the dead meter as a (fingers crossed) dead battery, then leave the operating suite, un-glove, find replacement batteries and re-glove and get your head back into the game where it was 5 minutes ago, that's nearly $30 for a battery change!

So add sheer convenience, economy and safety factors to Jay_Diddy's list.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Don Hills on September 16, 2015, 06:02:23 am

It's the same in film and TV production... change the batteries in the radio mics etc whether they need it or not.

And change the betteries in your smoke alarms every 6 months instead of waiting till they start beeping. If you leave it till they start beeping, you take the battery out to stop the noise, then never quite get around to going out and buying a new one...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on September 16, 2015, 07:09:14 am

 :rant:
Please guys did anyone actually read the articles provided by Batteriser?

The 'full' UL report is totally logical. It's states very very clear  that it did a measurement that is for 100% provided by batteriser, and whatever the results were, it had nothing to do with what UL normally stands for. This UL-report is just a disclaimer made by UL, with a warning that Batteroo is not allowed to associate the UL logo with their products.

The Zinniker report is also logical. They found that non-empty are thrown away. They also give a couple of reasons about why. Non of these reasons are about devices that discard batteries to early. The camera example may look that way, but what really happens here is that the camera has to stop, because due to the ESR the batteries cannot deliver enough power even though there is still some energy left in them.
The solution that Zinniker provides is to measure energy level in your battery before you throw them away. -> (And it is actually Duracell who has an implementation of this solution with their yellow battery level indicator.)

So: batteriser state some claims, and then back these claims with documents that state something totally different.
How can they do that? Simple: most people don't read the documents anyway, and most that try don't understand it. Just like EULA's. There is also reversed psychology involved here: "It's provided by Batteriser, so it must be in favour of them."
-> This is probably what Franky meant with 'Thinking out of the box'.


But we understand these documents don't we? So let's not be confused by the fact that Batteroo promotes these documents as being in favour of them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: adprom on September 16, 2015, 08:26:51 am

Quote from: PeterL on September 16, 2015, 07:09:14 am

The 'full' UL report is totally logical. It's states very very clear  that it did a measurement that is for 100% provided by batteriser, and whatever the results were, it had nothing to do with what UL normally stands for. This UL-report is just a disclaimer made by UL, with a warning that Batteroo is not allowed to associate the UL logo with their products.

The report also says

"UL LLC authorizes the above named company
to reproduce this Report provided it is reproduced in its entirety. The name, Brand or Marks of
UL LLC cannot be used in any packaging, advertising, promotion or marketing relating to the
data in this Report, without UL's prior written permission."

By my reading, they are in breach of this by posting the single page by itself and using the UL name for promotional advertising on their main page.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on September 16, 2015, 08:33:44 am

Quote from: PeterL on September 16, 2015, 07:09:14 am

Please guys did anyone actually read the articles provided by Batteriser?

Yep. We read it very carefully. And this is NOT a valid test report.

A very short and incomplete list of things lacking in this "test report" :

- Description of battery used ? "Duracell Alkaline" is not enough to describe it. Duracell makes several different types of AA alkaline batteries.

- Description of battery used ? Battery types, provenance, state, date printed, type number are all lacking. Nothing.

- Description of the Boost converters used : provenance, state, version, etc, etc... Nothing.

- Description of the GPS unit ? serial number, type number, provenance, etc... Nothing.

- description of the test setup. How was the "tapping" done. By whom ? when, how often? Nothing is described.

- Date of the test, ambient temperature, operator name, location, GPS reception and functionnal state ? Nothing is described. All these have a measurable influence on the test result !!

- "Record the time it took for one of the two messages to display" How is the time recorded ? what instrument is used ? what is the role of the operator ? Is he allowed to go to the toilet during the test and can he miss something? Again, absolutely nothing is described.

- "Batteriser installed" How ? Photo of the installed devices is necessary.

- "Garmin GPS shutting down." Deliberately Wrong.

- "one of the two messages to display" Which two messages ??

- Date of the test, date of the report ????

- Test operator, and manager sign off ? there is not a single name to be found in this document.
......


This document is not a test report. it's either a fake, or a joke.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on September 16, 2015, 08:54:40 am

Quote from: adprom on September 16, 2015, 08:26:51 am

By my reading, they are in breach of this by posting the single page by itself and using the UL name for promotional advertising on their main page.

Agreed they are breaking the law, and bringing their own evidence. But they probably know exactly how far they can stretch this. And until UL summons them explicitly to remove the UL logo from their website within x days they'll just leave it there. Well that's my guess.

Quote from: f4eru on September 16, 2015, 08:33:44 am

Quote from: PeterL on September 16, 2015, 07:09:14 am

Please guys did anyone actually read the articles provided by Batteriser?

Yep. We read it very carefully. And this is NOT a valid test report.

A very short and incomplete list of things lacking in this "test report" :

It's not a test report at all. Batteroo wants you to believe that, and it seems to kinda work.
But this document is just a letter. It does not claim to be at test report(other than in the filename).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: nixxon on September 16, 2015, 09:10:50 am

Quote from: McCarthy on September 16, 2015, 12:02:16 am

I'd like to read the mentioned study from the "International Battery Recycling Conference". Please provide me with a link or a copy.

Quote from: nixxon on September 07, 2015, 09:52:00 pm

Here is a link to the 2003 Zinniker article with the figures quoted 42 minutes into the Batteroo's "Batteriser - Full length Batteriser explanation video". Zinniker is a bit more specific than Batteroo regarding the applied testing conditions: http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)

I havent read all the pages of the Zinniker article, I must confess.

BTW: a "LR6" battery = an alkaline "AA" battery

In the Zinniker report, it is mentioned (as Batteroo emphasize) that some devices shut off when a low voltage threshold is reached. Some alkaline batteries have a relatively large rest capacity when the test device turns off. The test device is a 2001 model Olympus C-3040. Zinniker measured a 1.4A current peak when the camera saved the image.

The manual for this camera states on page 13 that

"• Alkaline battery performance is limited, especially at low temperatures.
And it may runs out extremely shorter period than CR-V3 or NiMH.
Using NiMH batteries is recommended."
http://www.olympusamerica.com/files/oima_cckb/c3040_instm.pdf (http://www.olympusamerica.com/files/oima_cckb/c3040_instm.pdf)

It seems that this legacy camera is not well suited for use with alkaline batteries.

In the report, it is also assumed that some batteries (that are not rejected by the battery powered devices) are thrown away due to the following reasons:

Be sure to have good batteries
Before a weekend-trip or other activities, people want to be sure, to
have good batteries in their equipment. So they put in new ones and
dispose the "old" ones.

Mix up old and new batteries
While changeing batteries, the new set is ready for insertion, the old one
retracted and the phone is ringing. After some nice conversation, the
batteries have rolled around on the table. Now which are the new,
which are the old ones? Dispose all and take an other new set.

The rest capacity of batteries that are disposed due to "Be sure to have good batteries" or "Mix up old and new batteries" should be considered differently than the rest capacity that is discarded due to device shutoff.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: gore on September 16, 2015, 09:39:40 am

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on September 15, 2015, 10:38:03 pm

Wrong as usual.
Muppets are wrong a lot.
UL did the test and of course you will say the test is rigged so UL ran a rigged test.
Grow up and accept you are wrong sometimes. It is not a scam, you lose.

Faked or not, it is a misleading test. Let's look at the criteria the Batteriser set for this test:

"Test is terminated when one of the following occurs: 1) either GPS unit shuts down completely or 2) until the GPS unit displays a Low Battery Power message."

1) This part is not going to terminate the test. The device doesn't shut down after two hours of use, no matter how much you tap the screen.
2) This is the criteria that supposedly terminated the test. But let's take a closer look at the so called "low battery power message". Let's read it right off the Garmin's screen - "The battery power is too low for full backlight. Use rechargeable NiMH or lithium batteries to prevent this limitation". 

So it's just a limitation warning to save battery life, not a declaration of a shut down. The test is designed to make it sound like the device is not functional anymore only after ~ 2 hours of use, which absolutely misleading. In reality the device is functional for more than 10 hours, even more than that, without the backlight blasting at full power. Even if you prevent Garmin from dimming the screen, it would go for much longer than 1h52m. All in all, the Batteriser asked UL to verify the test using misleading criteria, which they supposedly did. What good is that? It seems to demonstrate dishonesty instead of battery life extension, which is what the Batteriser sleeve is suppose to excel at.

The things I've noted above were discussed and tested numerous times in this thread alone. Ultimately the reference to the UL report being thrown around is completely useless. There's no data in it. It doesn't matter who verifies what without any data attached. Either the data shows something is real, or it's nothing more than an argument from authority.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 16, 2015, 09:47:17 am

You can probably actually make the gps run longer by dropping the input voltage, so it's always in the reduced back light mode, rather than boosting it...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 16, 2015, 09:52:04 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 14, 2015, 08:57:22 am

I have some more data!

It's hilarious how the one with the boost converters (simulating batterisers) gets the shortest time.  That's using inductors that wouldn't fit into the batteriser.  If they don't put some disclaimers in their instructions manual that says "only use batteriser AFTER your product stops working, else you'll get reduced battery life.", I would be very surprised.

I'm also testing rechargable 2500 mAh nimh batteries at the moment, but couldn't wait until it's finished to put the other results into a combined graph.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, to keep the lines "thinner", I added a pretty aggressive weighted rolling average so you can tell the lines apart better.  The "noise" made the lines appear really thick, which made it hard to tell apart when they're near each other.

(http://i.imgur.com/YaFNpAq.png)

Link to full resolution image: http://i.imgur.com/n597E01.png (http://i.imgur.com/n597E01.png)

I asked the Garmin support last week about battery lifetime of the Approach G3 and if the Batteriser video is right that it only lasts for 1:52 hours. Today they answered: "Der Akku des Approach G3 hält im Normalfall bis zu 15 Stunden. In anderen Fällen liegt ein Defekt des Akkus vor." (translation: "Usually the battery of the Approach G3 lasts up to 15 hours. Otherwise the battery is broken."). I don't know why they said "Akku" (rechargeable battery), maybe they mean if someone uses it with NiMH batteries. So now their test is "officially" busted.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 16, 2015, 09:58:17 am

PS: did someone already contact the Garmin CEO? Support might not care about it, but such a video is really bad publicity for their device and the Garmin CEO might be interested in it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 16, 2015, 10:13:37 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on September 16, 2015, 09:58:17 am

PS: did someone already contact the Garmin CEO? Support might not care about it, but such a video is really bad publicity for their device and the Garmin CEO might be interested in it.

I doubt the CEO will care either.  The message in that video isn't that Garmin is bad, it's that you can get longer battery life with Batteriser.

If I was a Garmin CEO watching that video I'd be thinking, "Garmin brand GPS is being featured in a Youtube video! Yay!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Psycho on September 16, 2015, 10:38:55 am

And people watching it might think that this device just runs 2 hours without the batteriser...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 16, 2015, 10:52:33 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 16, 2015, 10:13:37 am

If I was a Garmin CEO watching that video I'd be thinking, "Garmin brand GPS is being featured in a Youtube video! Yay!"

And all product managers have a quick look and think: That type isn't in my current personal products list.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: adprom on September 16, 2015, 10:53:23 am

Quote from: PeterL on September 16, 2015, 08:54:40 am

Quote from: adprom on September 16, 2015, 08:26:51 am

By my reading, they are in breach of this by posting the single page by itself and using the UL name for promotional advertising on their main page.

Agreed they are breaking the law, and bringing their own evidence. But they probably know exactly how far they can stretch this. And until UL summons them explicitly to remove the UL logo from their website within x days they'll just leave it there. Well that's my guess.

It wouldn't be illegal - most likely a breach of contract.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on September 16, 2015, 11:20:29 am

Quote from: adprom on September 16, 2015, 08:26:51 am

"UL LLC authorizes the above named company
to reproduce this Report provided it is reproduced in its entirety. The name, Brand or Marks of
UL LLC cannot be used in any packaging, advertising, promotion or marketing relating to the
data in this Report, without UL's prior written permission."

By my reading, they are in breach of this by posting the single page by itself and using the UL name for promotional advertising on their main page.

Then I don't think you read the first 3 words and the last 5 words.  Now I think the whole report is nothing more than a forgery, so this is moot, but technically this "letter" would constitute written permission from UL (assuming it's real) to use ONLY the report, in its entirety.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: adprom on September 16, 2015, 11:35:48 am

Quote from: lpickup on September 16, 2015, 11:20:29 am

Then I don't think you read the first 3 words and the last 5 words.  Now I think the whole report is nothing more than a forgery, so this is moot, but technically this "letter" would constitute written permission from UL (assuming it's real) to use ONLY the report, in its entirety.

I suspect all 3 pages constitute the entire report given the letter stipulates what the testing did and didn't cover.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on September 16, 2015, 12:19:01 pm

Wherever this UL document came from, if you read this:

Quote

Per your request, project 4787059213 was opened, in accordance with your requested test protocol.

This:

Quote

UL LLC did not select the samples, determine whether the samples were representative of production samples, witness the production of the test samples, nor were we provided with information relative to the formulation or identification of component materials used in the test samples. The test results apply only to the actual samples tested.

And this:

Quote

The issuance of this report in no way implies Listing, Classification or Recognition by UL LLC

Then you know that UL did not do a performance test, so we got that confirmed now.

They (UL) just did a meaningless contract test job, and wrote down the result on little more than a post-it note.

And now these Batteroo guys are totally misusing the UL-notes to imply conformation of their ridicules claim.

I'd say this is bad behaviour for any company, but for a professor at a state university that Bob R. claims to be, that's just off the scale imho.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 16, 2015, 12:19:30 pm

I've attached a copy of some recent comments made on the IndieGogo campaign page, just in case they get deleted (which I suspect has already had)... See attached DOC.

I can't seem to find the original comment for some users, yet Ali replied to them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 16, 2015, 01:30:17 pm

Quote from: PeterL on September 16, 2015, 12:19:01 pm

Quote

The issuance of this report in no way implies Listing, Classification or Recognition by UL LLC

Then you know that UL did not do a performance test, so we got that confirmed now.

They (UL) just did a meaningless contract test job, and wrote down the result on little more than a post-it note.

And now these Batteroo guys are totally misusing the UL-notes to imply conformation of their ridicules claim.

Batteriser web site clearly says: "UL, one of the oldest and most prestigious Labs, has performed independent Performance testing of a Garmin Golf GPS with and without Batteriser"

Which part of that report says "independent testing" to anybody?

I don't see how UL doesn't have a problem with that statement.

Of course their remedy will probably be a written 'cease and desist' letter which Batteriser can safely ignore for a month or two before complying with it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on September 16, 2015, 02:31:36 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 16, 2015, 01:30:17 pm

Which part of that report says "independent testing" to anybody?

To me it practically says the opposite, and that's the point I was trying to make.

They posted a document that proof's that their statement "UL.....has performed independent Performance testing..." is a lie, however weird that is..

Quote from: Fungus on September 16, 2015, 01:30:17 pm

Of course their remedy will probably be a written 'cease and desist' letter which Batteriser can safely ignore for a month or two before complying with it.

My thoughts also, and for now, a couple of weeks would even be beautiful for Batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Stephan_T on September 16, 2015, 02:33:11 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 15, 2015, 05:10:19 am

It seems the Batteriser CEO is going to claim in this newspaper article that I'm working for Duracell  :palm:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=171199;image)

Ha, ha,

judging by your negative attitude towards NiMH rechargeables you kind of deserved that :-DD

Quote from: EEVblog

Source: EEVblog #176 - Lithium Ion/Polymer Battery Charging Tutorial (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6mKd5_-abk&feature=youtu.be&t=35s)
"[...about MjMH rechargeble AA and AAA cells...]
they are a bit of a pain in the butt: they all have chemistry [...]"

Well, jokes aside, in the discussions about battery cutoff voltage "EEVblog #774 - Low Battery Discharge Testing Part 1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_eictfFUao)) i was a little bit disappointed about how you ignored the question of rechargeable batteries and how deep discharge can hurt and damage them.
From my point of view, rechargeable cells are the only real solution for the environmental issue about reducing the amount of batteries thrown away. I only use disposable batteries for very few devices with very low power consumption, where the self discharge of rechargeable cells make them questionable. NiMH are no pain in the ..., they are much better than throwing away lots of chemistry (hopefully into the recycling process, but many ignorant people will ignore even that). So when you talk and educate about cutoff voltage, i would like you to take into account, what it means for the relatively environment friendly rechargeable cells.

If you would do more of this, suspecting you being a BIG BATTERY agent would become less likely.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wile E. Coyote on September 16, 2015, 03:03:33 pm

I have been a fly on this wall for long enough. I am enjoying this thread a lot and thought I would put in my 2 cents.

I decided to look into other battery related articles written by Hannah Francis, and found one here:
http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/this-yoke-and-shell-battery-could-charge-your-phone-in-six-minutes-20150811-gix2vz#comments (http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/this-yoke-and-shell-battery-could-charge-your-phone-in-six-minutes-20150811-gix2vz#comments)

It is about battery technology that could allow an iPhone battery to be fully charged within 6 minutes. Theory is nice, but ZERO math was applied to this article. The last person to comment on the article did some REAL math revealing the current involved in charging a battery that fast. It may be possible, but far from practical.

Based on Hannah's writing style of the above linked article, I would expect her to side with new technology along with little technical fact checking (if any).

And a reminder to batteriser...
(http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/scotty1.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 16, 2015, 04:02:44 pm

Quote from: Wile E. Coyote on September 16, 2015, 03:03:33 pm

I have been a fly on this wall for long enough. I am enjoying this thread a lot and thought I would put in my 2 cents.

I decided to look into other battery related articles written by Hannah Francis, and found one here:
http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/this-yoke-and-shell-battery-could-charge-your-phone-in-six-minutes-20150811-gix2vz#comments (http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/this-yoke-and-shell-battery-could-charge-your-phone-in-six-minutes-20150811-gix2vz#comments)

It is about battery technology that could allow an iPhone battery to be fully charged within 6 minutes. Theory is nice, but ZERO math was applied to this article. The last person to comment on the article did some REAL math revealing the current involved in charging a battery that fast. It may be possible, but far from practical.

And a reminder to batteriser...
(http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/scotty1.jpg)

My concern with comment is not the math, they seems to be fine for me, but where does the "4 times 2500 mAh battery" come from?
And why speaking about 4 AA battery? this article is about charging a SMARTPHONE battery in 6 min, not replacing a NiMH battery, nor 4.

Based on Hannah's writing style of the above linked article, I would expect her to side with new technology along with little technical fact checking (if any). Also he made assumption that these battery will have a nominal voltage of 1.5V, but nothing tell that.

For example my iPhone 5s have a 5.92 Whr (1560 mAh) LiPo battery so the nominal voltage is 3.7V.

So taking the same calculation as him:

The battery is 1.56 Ah, T still be 6min,  so 0.1h
I = C / T = 1.56 / 0.1 = 15.6 A + 10% = 15.6 * 1.10 = 17.16A (not sure about that, the main goal of this article and type of batterie is that the charging efficiency is really high, 10% of loss is quite high for me)

So for the 240VAC vs DC output, 3.7/240 * 17.16 = 0.26A or mure accurately, charging such a battery in 6min would need a 60W charger (or approaching).
But that's normal that quick charge need more power. But such a battery will also mean that in the same conditions as it is currently the charge your battery will be much quicker.

I've search with my friend google, and a LiPo charging efficiency seems to be about 60 to 70%
NiMH seems to be about 85%.

So I suspect that such batteries would be higher than 90%.

Anyway, even a 90% efficiency against a 60% efficiency is about a 50% improvement in charge speed.


(and sorry if I say something stupid, my head hurts today)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Stephan_T on September 16, 2015, 04:31:32 pm

Quote from: Wile E. Coyote on September 16, 2015, 03:03:33 pm

Based on Hannah's writing style of the above linked article, I would expect her to side with new technology along with little technical fact checking (if any).

And if not ...











she will be called a DURACELL bunny herself:
(http://www.smh.com.au/content/dam/images/g/i/x/7/f/d/image.related.articleLeadNarrow.300x0.gix2vz.png/1439350922198.jpg) :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 16, 2015, 04:42:18 pm

Just read that on the sy-ynergy-77 channel comments from the man himself:

Quote

The trouble is 99% of you "engineers", with your heads in the clouds and up your asses at the same time, never turned a wrench and did anything in the real world. Although I have scholastic aptitude in the upper 1% in mathematics as proven by my name listed in Who's Who, I actually am a person that gets down and dirty in the practical application .   I know many times "engineers can be wrong and the joke "trust me, I an engineer" came into being for a reason.  You have no concern about scammers or else you'd be calling out the liars who kill people with chemo 'treating' cancer,  "Doctor".  I suggest that  if this issue bothers you so much, perhaps you need a prescription for lithium.

That just show how on earth this guy is.

I strongly doubt he is in the Who's Who, or the credibility of this list is no more :)

(and just look at his channel poster image, that add a lot of credibility to all of his work!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: joseph.anand on September 16, 2015, 05:20:45 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 16, 2015, 04:42:18 pm

I strongly doubt he is in the Who's Who, or the credibility of this list is no more :)

I think it is the latter than the former. In the last 10 years I have been nominated to this 3 times list and each time I declined to respond based on the following logic:
1. If indeed I get onto the list, that would be downgrading the achievements of people who are on the list and have actually done something exceptional.
2. If I get on this list and then discover that there are people who have done nothing whatsoever that would be degrading to me. :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 16, 2015, 07:25:22 pm

No one ever asked me to be on this list :o

I'm angry :o

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on September 16, 2015, 08:05:27 pm

Perhaps it's better that way :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who%27s_Who_scam

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 16, 2015, 08:13:29 pm

I still think that every EE, and EE enthousiast should be in the Who's Who :o

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Joule Thief on September 16, 2015, 08:29:42 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 16, 2015, 04:42:18 pm

Just read that on the sy-ynergy-77 channel comments from the man himself:

Quote

The trouble is 99% of you "engineers", with your heads in the clouds and up your asses at the same time, never turned a wrench and did anything in the real world. Although I have scholastic aptitude in the upper 1% in mathematics as proven by my name listed in Who's Who, I actually am a person that gets down and dirty in the practical application .   I know many times "engineers can be wrong and the joke "trust me, I an engineer" came into being for a reason.  You have no concern about scammers or else you'd be calling out the liars who kill people with chemo 'treating' cancer,  "Doctor".  I suggest that  if this issue bothers you so much, perhaps you need a prescription for lithium.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.64.2655 (http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.64.2655)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y5ia2CEt5c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y5ia2CEt5c)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Joule Thief on September 16, 2015, 08:40:59 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EkBuKQEkio (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EkBuKQEkio)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 16, 2015, 09:28:03 pm

Yeah that why peoples who knows, feel that themselves are incompetent

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Groucho2005 on September 16, 2015, 10:30:43 pm

Quote from: Joule Thief on September 16, 2015, 08:29:42 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y5ia2CEt5c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y5ia2CEt5c)

Wow, the guy in the video really likes the word "actually"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: free_electron on September 16, 2015, 11:01:23 pm

164 pages on this battered-poo and still going strong ..

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 16, 2015, 11:09:55 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 16, 2015, 04:42:18 pm

Just read that on the sy-ynergy-77 channel comments from the man himself:

Quote

The trouble is 99% of you "engineers", with your heads in the clouds and up your asses at the same time, never turned a wrench and did anything in the real world. Although I have scholastic aptitude in the upper 1% in mathematics as proven by my name listed in Who's Who, I actually am a person that gets down and dirty in the practical application .   I know many times "engineers can be wrong and the joke "trust me, I an engineer" came into being for a reason.  You have no concern about scammers or else you'd be calling out the liars who kill people with chemo 'treating' cancer,  "Doctor".  I suggest that  if this issue bothers you so much, perhaps you need a prescription for lithium.

Can you post a link or screen capture that?
Is that the "Fan Page" guy or Bob himself? I have not seen Bob comment on youtube video before.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: robby1995 on September 16, 2015, 11:17:39 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 16, 2015, 11:09:55 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 16, 2015, 04:42:18 pm

Just read that on the sy-ynergy-77 channel comments from the man himself:

Quote

The trouble is 99% of you "engineers", with your heads in the clouds and up your asses at the same time, never turned a wrench and did anything in the real world. Although I have scholastic aptitude in the upper 1% in mathematics as proven by my name listed in Who's Who, I actually am a person that gets down and dirty in the practical application .   I know many times "engineers can be wrong and the joke "trust me, I an engineer" came into being for a reason.  You have no concern about scammers or else you'd be calling out the liars who kill people with chemo 'treating' cancer,  "Doctor".  I suggest that  if this issue bothers you so much, perhaps you need a prescription for lithium.

Can you post a link or screen capture that?
Is that the "Fan Page" guy or Bob himself? I have not seen Bob comment on youtube video before.

I think its a command from this sy-ynergy 77 guy

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: hauptbr09 on September 16, 2015, 11:18:14 pm

(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/16/8ae7d5b9f97e5272ed6e2f0d0ab73648.jpg)

From syyenergy7

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 16, 2015, 11:41:58 pm

Yeah, he's another one of those guys that make me just kind of shake my head in disbelief, I don't even know what to say.  I'd also already seen that muppet video before.  :palm:

How misguided...  when we're talking about some electronic device most of the time the engineers ARE the ones who turn the wrenches and actually build things .  Do engineers (professional or amateur) ever get things wrong?  Most certainly(!) and any good one is more than happy to be proved wrong, that's one of the ways you learn things.  If you apply good, sound, scientific methodology to things like this, you'll always find out the truth.

These guys are all just so far out there that even obvious rational, logical deduction arguments will be lost on them it seems, let alone any kind of scientific-sounding evidence from some us nerdy geeks who obviously have no understanding of how these things work...  Oh my...  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fsck on September 16, 2015, 11:42:52 pm

I wonder who he thinks is responsible for his electricity, plumbing and sewage systems

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: chadb on September 17, 2015, 12:25:09 am

EDN put out another article about batteriser today: http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440366/The-Batteriser--defenders-and-detractors (http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440366/The-Batteriser--defenders-and-detractors)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 17, 2015, 12:53:04 am

Quote from: chadb on September 17, 2015, 12:25:09 am

EDN put out another article about batteriser today: http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440366/The-Batteriser--defenders-and-detractors (http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440366/The-Batteriser--defenders-and-detractors)

Quote

Additionally, the current range for those devices was around 100 milliamps. If you have watched Dave Jones’ video, he actually brought that up in his video that most likely we have a very limited current range, which is incorrect. These are the reasons we designed our own IC, which works down to 0.5V and is capable of delivering steady state current of 1.3A. Creating an IC as capable as Batteriser’s was the result of over four years of R&D.

So first, they say there's no IP in their product, but now they claim to have made their own chip?  As if a bunch of startup guys can outdo the big hitters who've been perfecting boost converters for 50+ years?  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on September 17, 2015, 01:04:39 am

Quote

...capable of delivering steady state current of 1.3A

Earlier on in the GoGo campaign Bobby Boy answered a question about current and said that it could deliver everything the battery could deliver.
There was of course wide spread doubt here that such a device could deliver in excess of 10A from an AA cell.

So they have backtracked again and revised their deliverables...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cyco66 on September 17, 2015, 01:50:36 am

It was interesting look through the syyenergy7 Youtube channel as he does seem to like backing scams, he heavily promotes the Spooky Rife machine which is a well known scam, problem with this one is it could cost someone their life. He really is a sad excuse for a human being.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: DrGeoff on September 17, 2015, 02:06:20 am

Nice one Dave.

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/batteriser-battery-life-extender-scam-or-saviour-20150915-gjmrql.html (http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/batteriser-battery-life-extender-scam-or-saviour-20150915-gjmrql.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 17, 2015, 02:12:36 am

Quote from: chadb on September 17, 2015, 12:25:09 am

EDN put out another article about batteriser today: http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440366/The-Batteriser--defenders-and-detractors (http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440366/The-Batteriser--defenders-and-detractors)

The article says nothing new unfortunately and just argues the same points that have been debunked since the beginning, proof of which is found in this very long thread.

Question 1: Their answer - most devices don't have boost circuits, so that is why Batteriser is useful. My argument: They don't mention that even without boost circuits these devices may run down to a very low cutoff voltage, so the benefit of the Batteriser is limited... but they do state the max output is 1.3 A now.

Question 2: Their answer - some circular argument about how devices have boost circuits in them, therefore there is obviously a use to it... so that validates the benefit of a Batteriser, otherwise why would most devices use a boost circuit? My argument: Again, nobody is arguing that a boost circuit can or cannot be beneficial for certain devices. It is very device dependent and engineered in there for a reason, and turned on during certain thresholds (not running all the time like Batteriser)... Although we don't know what Batteriser does, it may indeed have a cutoff that triggers the boosting... But as a previous user said in this thread, every device has a different cutoff and so how would the Batteriser be "set" to know every single device out there and use the appropriate cutoff? Only a device engineered with a preset cutoff level booster would work optimally.

They also bring up Zinniker's table showing % of batteries in garbage that have certain % capacity left.... As explained a few pages ago, this is a cumulative plot and you must carefully understand what the numbers mean and read Zinniker's full article to get all the nuances involved.

Question 3: Their answer - Batteriser is more cost-effective and cheaper batteries have less energy than more expensive batteries. My argument: The problem with this argument is, even if the Batteriser cost $0.00.... Would it not be using up my batteries faster due to the efficiency loss? We have already seen examples on this thread showing boost converter versus non-boost and performance is actually worse due to inefficiencies in the booster.

Question 4: Their answer - people will still use disposable batteries and it is ending up in landfills and being a huge waste. Point well taken. My argument: But Batteriser does not seem to be the answer.... It will only add to the pollution. First, the Batteriser manufacturing itself. Second, the fact that if it actually degrades time of the battery, will result in more batteries being used and possibly also leaking. Third, if they created a rechargeable battery with a boost converter in it, it would theoretically work in more devices and actually be reusable although I figure it wouldn't have as long as life in the device as an alkaline, at least you could use it in those devices that don't like rechargeables due to the lower voltage. 

Question 5: Their answer - Same thing they are saying before about tapping last bit of energy from battery, and also Garmin GPS test mentioned again which has been thoroughly debunked by multiple people. My argument: I have none. They are clearly and utterly sticking to their Garmin GPS setup and saying they will add more "side by side" comparison tests.... Yes, as soon as they find another device that they can arbitrarily decide on a "failure" mode that makes the Batteriser look like it is giving way longer performance life.

BOTTOM LINE:

This huge thread has all the answers in it, to all of the above questions, with actual mathematical and scientific arguments. Batteroo fundamentally disagrees with it, and continue to recite the same thing. You can blow huge holes into all of their answers. It is a pointless exercise to debate this anymore with Batteroo. What we need is to wait and see what they DELIVER. Fortunately it is only a few months away.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 17, 2015, 02:17:24 am

Quote from: DrGeoff on September 17, 2015, 02:06:20 am

Nice one Dave.

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/batteriser-battery-life-extender-scam-or-saviour-20150915-gjmrql.html (http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/batteriser-battery-life-extender-scam-or-saviour-20150915-gjmrql.html)

Not a bad article at all for a mainstream paper.  Not all journos just want to reprint PR hype!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 17, 2015, 02:26:21 am

Quote from: DrGeoff on September 17, 2015, 02:06:20 am

Nice one Dave.

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/batteriser-battery-life-extender-scam-or-saviour-20150915-gjmrql.html (http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/batteriser-battery-life-extender-scam-or-saviour-20150915-gjmrql.html)

I always love a tech article written by a female that starts off with the sentence:

How could we forget those baloney billboards from the Advanced Medical Institute which preyed upon men's sexual insecurities with the promise of longer-lasting sex.

 :-DD

But seriously, I listened to the video and read it. Dave would certainly have been a lot more negative than Geoff Walker. I still think it is a good idea he didn't get involved directly in this article by Hannah Francis. While in the end it does actually seem (at least from what I see) that she actually is supporting Dave on this one so are all the experts she quotes (apart from Batteriser). Hannah writes of Batteroo:

With 280,000 subscribers to the EEVblog YouTube channel, Batteroo is none too pleased at the negative attention, and told Fairfax Media its legal team was "looking at" potential action against Jones.

Dave still gets lots of attention in the article. But Hannah is not very flattering by quoting Roohparvar's opinion of Dave's qualifications compared to his. Look at what she writes:

Roohparvar went on to paraphrase Gandhi – "First they will ignore you; then they will laugh at you; then they will fight you; then you will win" – and his first punch in that perceived fight was to discredit Jones for having no formal electrical engineering qualifications, only a degree in performing arts from Australia's National Institute of Dramatic Arts.

Anyways, by the end of the article I am given the feeling that it is actually anti-Batteriser and you have 3 or 4 different experts who all say it is baloney. Good job Hannah! Finally! Or is it too lenient?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 02:36:01 am

Quote from: edy on September 17, 2015, 02:26:21 am

Roohparvar went on to paraphrase Gandhi – "First they will ignore you; then they will laugh at you; then they will fight you; then you will win" – and his first punch in that perceived fight was to discredit Jones for having no formal electrical engineering qualifications, only a degree in performing arts from Australia's National Institute of Dramatic Arts.

Nobody obviously bothered to fact check that  :palm:
Heads up Dr Bob, I don't have a degree in performing arts from NIDA. It's in my linkedIn profile as a joke  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 02:42:03 am

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/batteriser-battery-life-extender-scam-or-saviour-20150915-gjmrql.html (http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/batteriser-battery-life-extender-scam-or-saviour-20150915-gjmrql.html)

As usual Batteriser are left with nothing to stand on but slandering people and big-noting their own credentials, as if science and engineering works on appeals to authorities. How sad.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: DrGeoff on September 17, 2015, 02:47:32 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 02:36:01 am

Quote from: edy on September 17, 2015, 02:26:21 am

Roohparvar went on to paraphrase Gandhi – "First they will ignore you; then they will laugh at you; then they will fight you; then you will win" – and his first punch in that perceived fight was to discredit Jones for having no formal electrical engineering qualifications, only a degree in performing arts from Australia's National Institute of Dramatic Arts.

Nobody obviously bothered to fact check that  :palm:
Heads up Dr Bob, I don't have a degree in performing arts from NIDA. It's in my linkedIn profile as a joke  :palm:

Ha ha ha! That's even better!
Now you can write a musical about it :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 02:50:32 am

I bet Bob will regret being involved in that article when he reads it.
Hannah did an excellent job sourcing other experts, all of which rubbish the Batteriser claims.
And the slander, well, that's just  :palm:
I wonder what the VC's and his "legal team" think of that?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 02:53:59 am

Quote from: DrGeoff on September 17, 2015, 02:47:32 am

Ha ha ha! That's even better!
Now you can write a musical about it :)

Actually, it's not a complete fabrication, I did a short course at NIDA. They told me I was the 2nd worst actor they have ever seen.
Perhaps I should add some other joke qualifications on there, any suggestions?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 17, 2015, 03:04:17 am

Well done Dave :-)

My favourite bit is: "Batteroo is none too pleased at the negative attention, and told Fairfax Media its legal team was "looking at" potential action against Jones."  :-DD

Any half-decent solicitor wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, let alone trying to sue someone in another country based on a case which has no reasonable prospect of even getting off the ground. Even Judge Judy would laugh at Batteroo. Any such case has "costs awarded" written all over it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 17, 2015, 03:07:51 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 02:53:59 am

Perhaps I should add some other joke qualifications on there, any suggestions?

How about a "Brewmasters Degree in Beerology" from a place like this:

http://www.fshn.chhs.colostate.edu/students/undergraduate/fermentation-science/ (http://www.fshn.chhs.colostate.edu/students/undergraduate/fermentation-science/)

B.S. in Fermentation Science and Technology:

(http://www.fshn.chhs.colostate.edu/students/undergraduate/fermentation-science/img/Set%203/Comparative%20analysis.jpg)

We all need a little beer sometimes to do proper engineering.  ;D :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fsck on September 17, 2015, 03:10:27 am

degree in sports appreciation

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 17, 2015, 03:11:34 am

Speaking of Beer... Here is a sad story about an EE in Canada who has struggled to find a job since being laid off, and now works in a Beer Store:

The article is titled "Professional engineer makes minimum wage at a Beer Store":

http://www.northernlife.ca/news/localNews/2015/04/12-engineer.aspx (http://www.northernlife.ca/news/localNews/2015/04/12-engineer.aspx)

Sorry to derail the thread. Back to Beereriser... get 800% more Beer! Now that I would buy!  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 03:29:04 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 17, 2015, 03:04:17 am

Well done Dave :-)
My favourite bit is: "Batteroo is none too pleased at the negative attention, and told Fairfax Media its legal team was "looking at" potential action against Jones."  :-DD
Any half-decent solicitor wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, let alone trying to sue someone in another country based on a case which has no reasonable prospect of even getting off the ground. Even Judge Judy would laugh at Batteroo. Any such case has "costs awarded" written all over it.

Yup, you can tell I'm quaking in my boots.
I've stuck entirely to facts and basic engineering throughout this whole thing, and have no made no personal attacks or unfounded accusations.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 17, 2015, 03:36:00 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 03:29:04 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 17, 2015, 03:04:17 am

Well done Dave :-)
My favourite bit is: "Batteroo is none too pleased at the negative attention, and told Fairfax Media its legal team was "looking at" potential action against Jones."  :-DD
Any half-decent solicitor wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, let alone trying to sue someone in another country based on a case which has no reasonable prospect of even getting off the ground. Even Judge Judy would laugh at Batteroo. Any such case has "costs awarded" written all over it.

Yup, you can tell I'm quaking in my boots.
I've stuck entirely to facts and basic engineering throughout this whole thing, and have no made no personal attacks or unfounded accusations.

Again, my hat off to you. Common sense and science prevails!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Stephan_T on September 17, 2015, 03:38:27 am

I especially liked the conclusion of the article:

Quote

www.smh.com.au (http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/batteriser-battery-life-extender-scam-or-saviour-20150915-gjmrql.html#ixzz3lxkwOQmg)
Both Dr Walker and Dr Vassallo instead suggested replacing a flat battery, or using good quality rechargeable batteries, as the best options.

Replacing a flat battery is kind of ovious, but rechargeable batteries are a much better solution of the problem than the Batteriser.

Let's look at the cutoff voltage issue in regards to rechargeables, as I allredy suggested here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg756200/#msg756200).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 17, 2015, 03:42:57 am

I'm still laughing at the comparisons of the Batteriser to the marketing of fake boner pills. Well done, Hannah.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on September 17, 2015, 03:47:14 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 17, 2015, 03:42:57 am

I'm still laughing at the comparisons of the Batteriser to the marketing of fake boner pills. Well done, Hannah.

At least people scammed by Batteriser will just be out some money... Look at the side effects of ExtenZe....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExtenZe

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 03:49:32 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 17, 2015, 03:42:57 am

I'm still laughing at the comparisons of the Batteriser to the marketing of fake boner pills. Well done, Hannah.

That was pretty funny!  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Stephan_T on September 17, 2015, 03:50:24 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 02:36:01 am

Quote from: edy on September 17, 2015, 02:26:21 am

Roohparvar went on to paraphrase Gandhi – "First they will ignore you; then they will laugh at you; then they will fight you; then you will win" – and his first punch in that perceived fight was to discredit Jones for having no formal electrical engineering qualifications, only a degree in performing arts from Australia's National Institute of Dramatic Arts.

Nobody obviously bothered to fact check that  :palm:
Heads up Dr Bob, I don't have a degree in performing arts from NIDA. It's in my linkedIn profile as a joke  :palm:

What kind of fact check do you expect? Didn't you yourself stated this as your own credentials on the information platform linkedIn? How are journalists supposed to know what is a joke and what not? If they find out, that your degree in performing arts from Australia's National Institute of Dramatic Arts is not for real, they might even accuse you of lying about your qualifications.
Be careful ;) The Batteroooo lawyers have started to collect evidence.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 6581 on September 17, 2015, 03:51:37 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 02:53:59 am

Perhaps I should add some other joke qualifications on there, any suggestions?

DMM in PCB Design

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 17, 2015, 05:06:33 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 02:36:01 am

Quote from: edy on September 17, 2015, 02:26:21 am

Roohparvar went on to paraphrase Gandhi – "First they will ignore you; then they will laugh at you; then they will fight you; then you will win" – and his first punch in that perceived fight was to discredit Jones for having no formal electrical engineering qualifications, only a degree in performing arts from Australia's National Institute of Dramatic Arts.

Nobody obviously bothered to fact check that  :palm:
Heads up Dr Bob, I don't have a degree in performing arts from NIDA. It's in my linkedIn profile as a joke  :palm:

I am certain Hannah knows it's incorrect. I think she made a conscious decision to give Bob enough rope to hang himself. She really has to get credit for writing the best article on the subject thus far. It was far better than the EDN article.  :clap:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fsck on September 17, 2015, 05:14:59 am

Quote from: Stephan_T on September 17, 2015, 03:50:24 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 02:36:01 am

Quote from: edy on September 17, 2015, 02:26:21 am

Roohparvar went on to paraphrase Gandhi – "First they will ignore you; then they will laugh at you; then they will fight you; then you will win" – and his first punch in that perceived fight was to discredit Jones for having no formal electrical engineering qualifications, only a degree in performing arts from Australia's National Institute of Dramatic Arts.

Nobody obviously bothered to fact check that  :palm:
Heads up Dr Bob, I don't have a degree in performing arts from NIDA. It's in my linkedIn profile as a joke  :palm:

What kind of fact check do you expect? Didn't you yourself stated this as your own credentials on the information platform linkedIn? How are journalists supposed to know what is a joke and what not? If they find out, that your degree in performing arts from Australia's National Institute of Dramatic Arts is not for real, they might even accuse you of lying about your qualifications.
Be careful ;) The Batteroooo lawyers have started to collect evidence.

typically, good reporting involves some sort of independent investigation from trusted sources and are typically corroborated against each other.
though I guess in the social media era, just randomly taking people at their word on the internet has become popular.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 05:32:01 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 17, 2015, 05:06:33 am

am certain Hannah knows it's incorrect.

Actually, it's not really her fault. It's reasonable to assume that a LinkedIn profile would be correct, and wouldn't have any jokes in it (or that it might be incomplete in terms of qualifications and some jobs).
Although she didn't contact me about that claim, just the one about being paid by Duracell. If she did ask I could have straitened that one out.

Quote

She really has to get credit for writing the best article on the subject thus far. It was far better than the EDN article.  :clap:

Yep, by far the best article so far.
I see EDN have a new follow-up article:
http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440366/The-Batteriser--defenders-and-detractors (http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440366/The-Batteriser--defenders-and-detractors)
I have't read it all yet, but the intro nails it:

Quote

The bulk of the commenters' observations were skeptical of Batteroo and its pending product, and otherwise negative in tone. Some of the comments were from Batteroo itself; unfortunately, in my opinion, the company frequently chose to engage in personal attacks on the detractors themselves (their underlying motives, their backers, their technical competence, etc), versus focusing on addressing the issues raised.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 17, 2015, 05:38:27 am

http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_Report_FCC.pdf (http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_Report_FCC.pdf)

 :palm: :palm:

There just are not enough  :palm:'s to describe this. Yup, the AA version of the Batteriser "passed" FCC compliance testing ...

... at a fixed current draw of 1.5 mA.

Is this a joke?!  One fixed current draw?  The Apple keyboard and trackpad draw 5-7mA in normal operation and over 50mA peak. The beloved "golf GPS" runs at least 100X of that. Could Batteroo be afraid it might not pass when actually pushing the converter at a realistic level?!

Per the FCC, the device must be tested AS IT WILL BE USED.  What device in all these claims of Batteroo idles along at a fixed 1.5mA!? 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 17, 2015, 05:45:51 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 17, 2015, 05:38:27 am

http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_Report_FCC.pdf (http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_Report_FCC.pdf)

 :palm: :palm:

There just are not enough  :palm:'s to describe this. Yup, the AA version of the Batteriser "passed" FCC compliance testing ...

... at a fixed current draw of 1.5 mA.

Is this a joke?!  One fixed current draw?  The Apple keyboard and trackpad draw 5-7mA in normal operation and over 50mA peak. The beloved "golf GPS" runs at least 100X of that. Could Batteroo be afraid it might not pass when actually pushing the converter at a realistic level?!

Per the FCC, the device must be tested AS IT WILL BE USED.  What device in all these claims of Batteroo idles along at a fixed 1.5mA!?

Safe to assume their switching frequency is 1.5 MHz?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 17, 2015, 05:47:37 am

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on September 17, 2015, 05:45:51 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 17, 2015, 05:38:27 am

http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_Report_FCC.pdf (http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_Report_FCC.pdf)

 :palm: :palm:

There just are not enough  :palm:'s to describe this. Yup, the AA version of the Batteriser "passed" FCC compliance testing ...

... at a fixed current draw of 1.5 mA.

Is this a joke?!  One fixed current draw?  The Apple keyboard and trackpad draw 5-7mA in normal operation and over 50mA peak. The beloved "golf GPS" runs at least 100X of that. Could Batteroo be afraid it might not pass when actually pushing the converter at a realistic level?!

Per the FCC, the device must be tested AS IT WILL BE USED.  What device in all these claims of Batteroo idles along at a fixed 1.5mA!?

Safe to assume their switching frequency is 1.5 MHz?

Oh no. Try for 900MHz. They are smack in the middle of the ISM band.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Someone on September 17, 2015, 05:48:43 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 02:53:59 am

Quote from: DrGeoff on September 17, 2015, 02:47:32 am

Ha ha ha! That's even better!
Now you can write a musical about it :)

Actually, it's not a complete fabrication, I did a short course at NIDA. They told me I was the 2nd worst actor they have ever seen.
Perhaps I should add some other joke qualifications on there, any suggestions?

NIDA is a rather exclusive and well regarded organisation, great choice to mention. If you want funny why not follow A J Rimmer BSc and list all the trivial qualifications you get as a child (in that case Bronze Swimming Certificate).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 17, 2015, 05:49:03 am

The test fixture.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 17, 2015, 05:59:53 am

I see it has a lot going on around 900 MHz, but "Highest Intentionally Generated Frequency is 1.5MHz". Someone else explain this?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 06:00:15 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 17, 2015, 05:38:27 am

Per the FCC, the device must be tested AS IT WILL BE USED.  What device in all these claims of Batteroo idles along at a fixed 1.5mA!?

2.25mW  :-DD
Funny how they can show a FCC report, and a UL "report", but still can't show a single characteristic curve, nor provide any real performance data.

Also:

Quote

Highest intentional generated frequency is 1.5MHz

So looks like we have an official upper limit on the switching frequency used.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 06:01:30 am

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on September 17, 2015, 05:59:53 am

I see it has a lot going on around 900 MHz, but "Highest Intentionally Generated Frequency is 1.5MHz". Someone else explain this?

I presume that means the fundamental switching frequency of the converter, not including harmonics.
IIRC Bob (or someone) has mentioned 1.5MHz switching before?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on September 17, 2015, 06:04:03 am

@LabSpokane:
Is there a pice of paper below the clip?
Could it be that the Butteriser have some little short circuit issues?  :-DD

And anybody knews that you have to solder some resistors on your new battery bevore you install it  :scared:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 06:05:27 am

Quote from: Someone on September 17, 2015, 05:48:43 am

NIDA is a rather exclusive and well regarded organisation

Yes indeed. Many try and and don't make it in each year, let alone finish. If I really was a graduate of NIDA's full course I'd be a hell of a lot better on camera than I am, by maybe 10 orders of magnitude!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on September 17, 2015, 06:07:24 am

Excerpt from the article

Quote

With 280,000 subscribers to the EEVblog YouTube channel, Batteroo is none too pleased at the negative attention, and told Fairfax Media its legal team was "looking at" potential action against Jones.

Looking into legal action sounds like a silly joke but it won't be the first completely ludercrous lawsuit initiated by a tech company (or so called tech company).
If they really do that (what I still doubt) I am going to up the Patreon support because fighting it off does not come for free. That won't be hard at all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on September 17, 2015, 06:07:42 am

Quote from: Godzil on September 16, 2015, 08:13:29 pm

I still think that every EE, and EE enthousiast should be in the Who's Who :o

Then open one for EE's :))

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: joseph.anand on September 17, 2015, 06:34:29 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 17, 2015, 12:53:04 am

As if a bunch of startup guys can outdo the big hitters who've been perfecting boost converters for 50+ years?  :palm:

Hmm.. This is actually plausible. Startup guys can outdo the big hitters sometimes provided they do things right.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on September 17, 2015, 06:45:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 02:53:59 am

Actually, it's not a complete fabrication, I did a short course at NIDA. They told me I was the 2nd worst actor they have ever seen.
Perhaps I should add some other joke qualifications on there, any suggestions?

I propose : Master degree in scam debunking

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 17, 2015, 06:51:15 am

Most converters intended for AA batteries operate either at 1MHz or 2MHz with some fluctuations on either side. A max of 1.5MHz would point to a 1MHz converter. The best ones available, that fit on top of a AA/AAA battery, don't output much more than 300mA @ 1.5V input, reducing to about 25mA @ 0.5V lowest input voltage.
Their claim of having engineered a small homebrew converter IC with a 1.5A output is ludicrous. As usual, no concrete proof of performance is presented.

A 5x improvement on the best IC technology, with high efficiency over a wide current range, and an implied 3A rating for a tiny 4.7uH inductor only make sense at Batteroo, Inc.

Batteroo's standards of electronics engineering:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=171471;image)



This is what it takes to make a decent DC to DC converter:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=171473;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 17, 2015, 07:16:52 am

1.5ma....

Surely they're having a laugh now!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: adprom on September 17, 2015, 07:50:54 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 17, 2015, 03:04:17 am

Well done Dave :-)

My favourite bit is: "Batteroo is none too pleased at the negative attention, and told Fairfax Media its legal team was "looking at" potential action against Jones."  :-DD

Any half-decent solicitor wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, let alone trying to sue someone in another country based on a case which has no reasonable prospect of even getting off the ground. Even Judge Judy would laugh at Batteroo. Any such case has "costs awarded" written all over it.

Have to love trigger happy people from the US who assume the rest of the world uses the same legal system as them. Should they take legal action in Aus, they could well be hit with costs in this sort of case. Interestingly, Dallas Buyers Club found this out the hard way as well.

Assume they can be litigous just like in the US with no consequence. I would love to seem them try.

A lot of noise with not much substance from Batteriser. It is unfortunate when facts get in the way of their marketing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 08:22:35 am

Quote from: adprom on September 17, 2015, 07:50:54 am

Have to love trigger happy people from the US who assume the rest of the world uses the same legal system as them. Should they take legal action in Aus, they could well be hit with costs in this sort of case. Interestingly, Dallas Buyers Club found this out the hard way as well.
Assume they can be litigous just like in the US with no consequence. I would love to seem them try.

Perhaps they'd like to sue the Sydney Morning Herald too for comparing their product with longer lasting sex ads  :-DD
I think Bob underestimated the pluckiness of journalist Hannah Francis actually going to to the trouble to find and talk to several university experts, who, *SPOLIER*, all agree that the Batteriser claims are misleading.  :-+ to quality journalism.
I bet he thought it would be another marketing puff piece for them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 17, 2015, 08:33:59 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 02:53:59 am

Quote from: DrGeoff on September 17, 2015, 02:47:32 am

Ha ha ha! That's even better!
Now you can write a musical about it :)

Actually, it's not a complete fabrication, I did a short course at NIDA. They told me I was the 2nd worst actor they have ever seen.
Perhaps I should add some other joke qualifications on there, any suggestions?

"expressive poetry"
"sheep psychology"
"male bovine excretion mechanisms"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: adprom on September 17, 2015, 08:56:16 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 08:22:35 am

Quote from: adprom on September 17, 2015, 07:50:54 am

Have to love trigger happy people from the US who assume the rest of the world uses the same legal system as them. Should they take legal action in Aus, they could well be hit with costs in this sort of case. Interestingly, Dallas Buyers Club found this out the hard way as well.
Assume they can be litigous just like in the US with no consequence. I would love to seem them try.

Perhaps they'd like to sue the Sydney Morning Herald too for comparing their product with longer lasting sex ads  :-DD
I think Bob underestimated the pluckiness of journalist Hannah Francis actually going to to the trouble to find and talk to several university experts, who, *SPOLIER*, all agree that the Batteriser claims are misleading.  :-+ to quality journalism.
I bet he thought it would be another marketing puff piece for them.

If you read his comments - I am sure you are correct that he thought it would be a supportive piece!

I found the article refreshingly good journalism.

No doubt batteriser will claim (if they comment at all) that the article is biased and unbalanced as if pseudoscience deserves equal amount of space as actual science, engineering and logic.

I'd love to see them go the legal route down here. Of course they won't - but they seem to think that idle threats actually work here where we have a functional legal system.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 17, 2015, 08:59:42 am

I didn't read the FCC report, I really just looked at the pictures, but the frequency emissions appear to have been taken at a distance of 3 metres?

So what happens when its a matter of centimetres from the device its installed in?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 17, 2015, 09:16:48 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 02:36:01 am

Quote from: edy on September 17, 2015, 02:26:21 am

Roohparvar went on to paraphrase Gandhi – "First they will ignore you; then they will laugh at you; then they will fight you; then you will win" – and his first punch in that perceived fight was to discredit Jones for having no formal electrical engineering qualifications, only a degree in performing arts from Australia's National Institute of Dramatic Arts.

Nobody obviously bothered to fact check that  :palm:
Heads up Dr Bob, I don't have a degree in performing arts from NIDA. It's in my linkedIn profile as a joke  :palm:

And I strongly doubt that at least Thales and Atlium would hire someone that has only such a degree :D

And, I find you quite good in front of a camera! And you do a lot of dramatic video, look at the video about that poor Samsung LCD TV, you kept us in suspence with that! Especially when this poor thing gets injured by the evil ReflowOven  :box:


And yes sorry, the quote I did a few pages ago about "the man itself" it was about the sy-nergy77 one, not one of the batteroo folks (even if this guys seems to be a good friend with "Batter-raiser FAN Page"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 17, 2015, 09:20:59 am

Quote from: edy on September 17, 2015, 02:12:36 am

Quote from: chadb on September 17, 2015, 12:25:09 am

EDN put out another article about batteriser today: http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440366/The-Batteriser--defenders-and-detractors (http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440366/The-Batteriser--defenders-and-detractors)

The article says nothing new unfortunately and just argues the same points that have been debunked since the beginning

Only batteroo was given a voice?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 17, 2015, 09:30:42 am

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on September 17, 2015, 09:24:05 am

Quote from: free_electron on September 16, 2015, 11:01:23 pm

164 pages on this battered-poo and still going strong ..

Yeahh.. powerd  by The Batteriser it wount stop before it reaches 800 pages!  ;)

Hey!
The Batteriser would make a really good name for an horror movie!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on September 17, 2015, 09:33:54 am

Quote from: Godzil on September 17, 2015, 09:30:42 am

Hey!
The Batteriser would make a really good name for an horror movie!

Or a Fish & Chip shop  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 17, 2015, 09:42:41 am

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on September 17, 2015, 09:33:54 am

Quote from: Godzil on September 17, 2015, 09:30:42 am

Hey!
The Batteriser would make a really good name for an horror movie!

Or a Fish & Chip shop  ;)

I wonder if Batteroo will lend us their batter holder (the one they mention in their UL test).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on September 17, 2015, 09:45:19 am

1.3A @ 1.5V with 0.5V in (1.95W) means the input is going to be at 3.9A with 100% efficiency, in reality more than that. They'll need a peak switch current of at least ~5A, ditto for the inductor.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on September 17, 2015, 09:50:16 am

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on September 17, 2015, 05:59:53 am

I see it has a lot going on around 900 MHz, but "Highest Intentionally Generated Frequency is 1.5MHz". Someone else explain this?

- Fast switching of the power transistors inside the chip.
- decoupling caps in the inductive frequency region
- The length of the wires and of the device makes a good antenna gor 900 MHz

Basically it creates a lot of harmonics, but the decoupling "holes" and the antenna (also called "wires") select some of them...

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 17, 2015, 06:34:29 am

Hmm.. This is actually plausible. Startup guys can outdo the big hitters sometimes provided they do things right.

Yes it's possible.
But cutting edge DC/DC converter chips with integrated MOS with a very low Vgsth, low leakage, very low quiescent current, etcetc....
This means a lot of R&D at the silicon process level and at the chip design, which cannot be done for a few ten thousand pieces... (at even less so if your product needs to be dirt cheap.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ozwolf on September 17, 2015, 10:01:19 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 17, 2015, 05:38:27 am

http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_Report_FCC.pdf (http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_Report_FCC.pdf)

 :palm: :palm:

There just are not enough  :palm:'s to describe this. Yup, the AA version of the Batteriser "passed" FCC compliance testing ...

... at a fixed current draw of 1.5 mA.

Is this a joke?!  One fixed current draw?  The Apple keyboard and trackpad draw 5-7mA in normal operation and over 50mA peak. The beloved "golf GPS" runs at least 100X of that. Could Batteroo be afraid it might not pass when actually pushing the converter at a realistic level?!

Per the FCC, the device must be tested AS IT WILL BE USED.  What device in all these claims of Batteroo idles along at a fixed 1.5mA!?

Did anyone notice that the Equipment Under Test (EUT) is Serial Number 1 (see page 5 of report)?

Surely a valid test would be conducted on a sample size greater than the first (and possibly only) device?

Ozwolf

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 17, 2015, 10:03:52 am

Bah you could put the number you want for a serial number, it does not need to be a consecutive number, it may be attributed at random, anyway I doubt that this is the sort of device that will have a sticker with a serial number on it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on September 17, 2015, 10:14:50 am

Quote from: Godzil on September 17, 2015, 09:30:42 am

Hey!
The Batteriser would make a really good name for an horror movie!

Or a guy throwing around batteries. .... little googling .... found one :  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIdQEsmrsU0nr1X84gr2SIA/videos (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIdQEsmrsU0nr1X84gr2SIA/videos)

He is ....... The Batteriser .....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 10:24:06 am

Quote from: adprom on September 17, 2015, 08:56:16 am

If you read his comments - I am sure you are correct that he thought it would be a supportive piece!

Seems that way:

Quote

Batteroo's chief executive, Bob Roohparvar, became notably upset when Jones' arguments were put to him

Of course he's going to get upset when people come out with proper supported engineering facts that don't match up to their claims.
He's all too eager to engage all and sundry who want to do marketing pieces for him, but has never once contacted me or other bloggers about any of our concerns, nor tried to defend his product in a technical forum on either Youtube video comments, this forum, or my blog page. (The Batteriser "Fang Page" child doesn't count). Nor has he ever offered any for actual testing.
As a professor he should know that the best way to defend your position and claims to fellow technical people is provide the data, and let people recreate your test results. Yet in what, 3-4 months now he hasn't provided a shred of credible data to back anything. What they have come out with has only been met with laughter from the engineering community, as evidences by the 100+ pages on here and elsewhere, and the experts quoted in the article, one even used the word "ludicrous". And rightly so, because it's so far from credible engineering data you'd think it's a parody.
Yet his main defense seems to be an appeal to authority because he's got a PhD and is a professor, and his brother has 500+ patents.

Quote

I found the article refreshingly good journalism.

Yes, Hannah is to be congratulated.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 10:29:42 am

Quote from: amyk on September 17, 2015, 09:45:19 am

1.3A @ 1.5V with 0.5V in (1.95W) means the input is going to be at 3.9A with 100% efficiency, in reality more than that. They'll need a peak switch current of at least ~5A, ditto for the inductor.

Which of course is impossible for the battery to supply because of the ESR being >>0.3ohms at such a low voltage. Actually it's 0.3ohms at around 1V, let alone 0.5V:
http://ww2.duracell.com/media/en-US/pdf/gtcl/Product_Data_Sheet/NA_DATASHEETS/MN1500_US_CT.pdf (http://ww2.duracell.com/media/en-US/pdf/gtcl/Product_Data_Sheet/NA_DATASHEETS/MN1500_US_CT.pdf)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: adprom on September 17, 2015, 10:37:13 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 10:24:06 am

And rightly so, because it's so far from credible engineering data you'd think it's a parody.
Yet his main defense seems to be an appeal to authority because he's got a PhD and is a professor, and his brother has 500+ patents.

It would be interesting to get a comment from California State University on this and the questionable claims of one of their associate professors. I would lay a bet that they would be at odds with Bob's claims.

Out of interest because I swear I saw it somewhere, did you go through the uni engineering qualifications? Not that it really matters - I am just curious now. I thought you had mentioned it on a video once.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: nitro2k01 on September 17, 2015, 10:40:23 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 10:24:06 am

(The Batteriser "Fang Page" child doesn't count).

Actually, all the videos on that channel are re-uploads of the Indiegogo progress report videos, and not produced by an independent party. So it's possible, if unlikely, that it's the work of some random fanboy.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/gallery (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/gallery)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: gore on September 17, 2015, 10:48:35 am

Not a bad article. I wasn't expecting it to reflect on the research that's been done on the Batteriser and its exaggerated claims. As for the CEO, well, still no arguments from him. You'd expect something of substance from a professor.

Quote

In contrast to Jones' lack of expertise, Roohparvar is quick to highlight his position as a professor at California State University and his more than 30 years' experience in the power industry. (In fact he is Associate Professor, a marginally lesser role.)

Roohparvar also suggested Jones was being paid by battery maker Duracell, which he says stands a lot to lose from Batteriser's "disruptive" potential.

One of the principals of science is that there are no authorities in science. Someone can be an expert in the field, but that doesn't automatically make him right on every question. Experiments and data is all that counts. As to having a formal education - that's great. It can help a lot. But one can lack a formal education and still be a great engineer. It depends whether you are passionate about the subject and invest time into studying the field. This doesn't even apply to Dave. He's got an EE degree.  :-// As for being paid by Duracell - a bold statement. That's just slander without evidence to back it up.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on September 17, 2015, 11:10:35 am

Hey. As this Batterizer unfolds more and more and more as a scam, I saw one claim which was still not debunked :

Quote

Frankie RoohparvarChairman & Inventor, Holds over 500 US patents

That does not sound very plausible to me. It means you write one patent each and every week for 10 years.
Yeah. Let's google that :

https://patents.google.com/?q=roohparvar

78 results. Most of them being citation.
OK, now that's more realistic. But, patents. Who cares....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: adprom on September 17, 2015, 11:12:30 am

Quote from: gore on September 17, 2015, 10:48:35 am

As for being paid by Duracell - a bold statement. That's just slander without evidence to back it up.

I doubt Dave could give 2 hoots - but as the call was in Aus - it would most likely be libel. Complete and utter waste of time pursuing however.

Quote

As to having a formal education - that's great. It can help a lot. But one can lack a formal education and still be a great engineer.

Depends, in many countries the use of the title engineer is protected ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 17, 2015, 11:22:35 am

But in fact, Dave is not paid by Duracell, but Energizer, and he was instructed to only use Duracell battery in his video to fool everyone!  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 17, 2015, 11:32:32 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 02:53:59 am

Actually, it's not a complete fabrication, I did a short course at NIDA. They told me I was the 2nd worst actor they have ever seen.

Indeed, you loose here, I'm sure winner BOB RPV is a much better actor, I guess nobody questions that.

:-) :-) :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 17, 2015, 11:37:16 am

Quote from: Stephan_T on September 17, 2015, 03:38:27 am

...
Both Dr Walker and Dr Vassallo instead suggested replacing a flat battery, or using good quality rechargeable batteries, as the best options.

What if the uninformed median guy takes good intentions to the limit?
Installing rechargable+batteriser?

We all know it will last shorter, but what exacly happens when you charge the device when the battery has that jacket on?
Pushing energy the other way through a boost converter?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 17, 2015, 11:55:10 am

Quote from: adprom on September 17, 2015, 11:12:30 am

Depends, in many countries the use of the title engineer is protected ;)

Not in our country, and around.
Only the personal abbreviations like ir. ing. dr. Msc. Meng. etc are protected.

Ont he other side, the word Architect is protected, even in a combination expression like interior architect.
But everybody uses it. Software architect, career architect, interior architect, garden architect.
Nobody cares.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 17, 2015, 12:01:45 pm

Quote from: f4eru on September 17, 2015, 11:10:35 am

Hey. As this Batterizer unfolds more and more and more as a scam, I saw one claim which was still not debunked :

Quote

Frankie RoohparvarChairman & Inventor, Holds over 500 US patents

That does not sound very plausible to me. It means you write one patent each and every week for 10 years.
Yeah. Let's google that :

Nah, it's true, we looked them up earlier in the thread. He used to work at Micron in a team and every random thought the team had was patented.

They're mostly junk though. Really obvious, basic stuff. Most people around here will have 20 thoughts like those every single day, we just don't have a patenting department following us around to record them and try to get them past patent examiners.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 17, 2015, 12:12:11 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 17, 2015, 12:01:45 pm

... He used to work at Micron in a team and every random thought the team had was patented.
They're mostly junk though. ...

Looks like they did a DoS attack (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial-of-service_attack) on the Patent services :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 17, 2015, 12:12:36 pm

Quote from: joseph.anand on September 17, 2015, 06:34:29 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 17, 2015, 12:53:04 am

As if a bunch of startup guys can outdo the big hitters who've been perfecting boost converters for 50+ years?  :palm:

Hmm.. This is actually plausible. Startup guys can outdo the big hitters sometimes provided they do things right.

Sure, in fields where a new technology appears and the big hitters didn't respond yet.

Designing DC boost converters in a field where the big hitters have been hitting each other for 20 years? Not so much.

(eg. Linear Tech., Analog Devices, TI, etc.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on September 17, 2015, 12:18:01 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 08:22:35 am

I think Bob underestimated the pluckiness of journalist Hannah Francis actually going to to the trouble to find and talk to several university experts...

I think 95% of this forum underestimated Hannah.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: neotesla on September 17, 2015, 12:20:17 pm

Quote from: lpickup on September 17, 2015, 12:18:01 pm

I think 95% of this forum underestimated Hannah.

Guilty as charged.
Good article (apart from a blooper about DJ not being an engineer) :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on September 17, 2015, 12:23:40 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 03:49:32 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 17, 2015, 03:42:57 am

I'm still laughing at the comparisons of the Batteriser to the marketing of fake boner pills. Well done, Hannah.

That was pretty funny!  :-DD

Haang on... Does that mean my vibrating massager will run EIGHT times as long?
Maybe we should ask Boob Ropahrvar?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 17, 2015, 12:52:29 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 17, 2015, 08:59:42 am

I didn't read the FCC report, I really just looked at the pictures, but the frequency emissions appear to have been taken at a distance of 3 metres?

So what happens when its a matter of centimetres from the device its installed in?

FCC requires only 3 m for the tested class: http://www.interferencetechnology.com/radiated-emission-measurements-at-1351030-meters/ (http://www.interferencetechnology.com/radiated-emission-measurements-at-1351030-meters/)
But I guess it wouldn't be much different in the centimeters range, because the Batterise is so small, but might depend on wires in the device etc., too. Of course, no problem for a 1k resistor :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 17, 2015, 01:01:45 pm

Addressing Battered-Kanga-roo's claims that devices use 20% or less of a cell's capacity. They featured an Apple wireless keyboard as an example device in their slick marketing videos.
At my work they have some Macs, and they use Energizer Industrial Alkaline AA cells (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/EN91.pdf) in the wireless keyboards and mice.
So when I noticed one pop up with a message saying "only 6% battery capacity remaining" in the Magic Mouse, I took the cells home and ran discharge tests on both cells at a very low discharge rate (0.05A) down to 0.5V to see how much capacity was really remaining in the cells when they came up with that message. Was there really 80% of their total capacity still remaining? I also discharged a brand new cell of the same make and model to compare the capacity of a new cell discharged at the same constant current rate to 0.5V.
This is an example of the cells:
(http://i.imgur.com/AG1zyqu.jpg)

Here is the discharge curve of a new cell (2477mAh):
(http://i.imgur.com/NYMaD11.png)

And here is the discharge curve of the two cells I took out of the Magic Mouse which showed 6% capacity remaining (393 and 325mAh):
(http://i.imgur.com/CkCjvLP.png)

So here is the relative capacity remaining in the cells vs new:
(http://i.imgur.com/sKktvdM.png)

so about 13-15% remaining capacity in the used cells when the mouse still registers as having 6% left usable capacity.
I'd've liked to have used all the usable capacity in the mouse until it turned off and then tested remaining capacity, but someone at work would have thrown the cells away before it got to that point. So I'm breaking with my normal pattern of only using LSD NiMH cells, and I've put some of the same Energizer Industrial Alkaline AA cells in a Magic Mouse at home which I'll use until it turns itself off, then I redo the discharge test on this pair to see how much capacity is really remaining in the cells.

You DON'T need a Batteriser to do this test, and to disprove their claims, because their claims are dependant on how much of a cell's usable capacity is utilized by a device. They claimed initially that "every battery you ever threw away had as much as 80% of the capacity still remaining". This is clearly not the case, as we all knew of course. But the Roopedoopedoovarhar brothers and Co. keep saying that you can't refute their claims without actually having a Battery-iser to test, when that obviously isn't the case.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: joseph.anand on September 17, 2015, 01:32:20 pm

Quote from: lpickup on September 17, 2015, 12:18:01 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 08:22:35 am

I think Bob underestimated the pluckiness of journalist Hannah Francis actually going to to the trouble to find and talk to several university experts...

I think 95% of this forum underestimated Hannah.

Yes one of the most neutral and factual technology related article I have read in a newspaper. I'm having a feeling she actually checked with real EE Professors before getting in touch with Dave.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 17, 2015, 03:47:44 pm

Quote

I also downloaded a brand new cell of the same make and model

I think we all would be more interested in your tele-transporter than a battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 17, 2015, 03:54:57 pm

Quote from: samgab on September 17, 2015, 01:01:45 pm

They claimed initially that "every battery you ever threw away had as much as 80% of the capacity still remaining". This is clearly not the case, as we all knew of course. But the Roopedoopedoovarhar brothers and Co. keep saying that you can't refute their claims without actually having a Battery-iser to test, when that obviously isn't the case.

This is reverse-talking, meaningless, misleading marketing-hype-type doublespeak.  Technically it is correct.  If you have 1000 batteries which are all completely dead, with 0 capacity left, 0 volts measured across the terminals, they still all have up to 80% of their original capacity left.  Misleading?  Of course!  True?  Unfortunately, technically, yes.  You never even have to see one with 80% capacity left for the statement to be true.  0 < 80 a thousand times over is still always true.  You can twist words around to make it sound like you're saying just about anything when you're technically not.  Very misleading weasel words, but it's done all the time!

Of course we can refute their claims without having an actual Batteriser to test but they have a vested intrest in trying to obfuscate the truth and mislead and confuse as many people as possible.  :palm:

That'll only work for so long, though, unless this becomes vaporware.  Sooner or later they'll have to actually start shipping some of their product and it will be obvious that they haven't lived up to their misleading marketing hype.

I can't wait!  This is going to be great!  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on September 17, 2015, 06:51:28 pm

Quote from: Delta on September 17, 2015, 08:33:59 am

"sheep psychology"

duh, Sheep Shearing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAi1005K71g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAi1005K71g)

Quote from: lpickup on September 17, 2015, 12:18:01 pm

I think 95% of this forum underestimated Hannah.

Guilty. I was pleasantly surprised she actually did the research, reached out to independent professors etc instead of reprinting PR bullshit most "news" outlets did.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 17, 2015, 06:57:09 pm

I don't think this actually got posted, sorry if it is a dupe:

Quote from: FrankBuss on September 17, 2015, 12:52:29 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 17, 2015, 08:59:42 am

I didn't read the FCC report, I really just looked at the pictures, but the frequency emissions appear to have been taken at a distance of 3 metres?

So what happens when its a matter of centimetres from the device its installed in?

FCC requires only 3 m for the tested class: http://www.interferencetechnology.com/radiated-emission-measurements-at-1351030-meters/ (http://www.interferencetechnology.com/radiated-emission-measurements-at-1351030-meters/)
But I guess it wouldn't be much different in the centimeters range, because the Batterise is so small, but might depend on wires in the device etc., too. Of course, no problem for a 1k resistor :-DD

Yeah... Remember that those part 15 FCC rules and tests to that end are only really intended to prevent excessive radiated emissions from doing things like interfering with radio and TV reception or otherwise causing general havoc in surrounding electonics and have nothing to do with something like a Batteriser generating and conducting or radiating undesired noise into whatever product they are installed in.  (Those FCC rules even state that your product must "accept any interference received, including that which may cause undesired operation")

I'm sure, though, that the radiated emissions from any boost converter, especially something like a Batteriser would be significantly higher at, say 1.5 A than they are at 1.5 mA... Who knows what they'll actually be like in real world, typical operation and how they will affect operation when put into some random device that may well have even been intentionally designed without a switching power supply and are assuming it will have a nice, clean, DC battery supply...  :palm:

Batteroo/Batteriser are essentially claiming to be able to do a better job of understanding almost every device's power requirements and doing a better job of re-engineering the power supply of that device for maximum performance than the original designers in almost every case. 

That is just complete hogwash.  :bullshit:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 17, 2015, 07:29:33 pm

Quote from: ez24 on September 17, 2015, 03:47:44 pm

Quote

I also downloaded a brand new cell of the same make and model

I think we all would be more interested in your tele-transporter than a battery.

lol, oops, it was late. *discharged* fixed...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on September 17, 2015, 09:43:55 pm

Could someone that has been across all the claims, bs and fog of marketing-speak, please put together an easy to read matrix of claims vs actual posted/observed/claimed results?
Batteriser are welcome to contribute with evidence supported claims.

e.g   FCC, UL, date, chemistry, technology, fansite claims on one edge, and responders/ refuters along the other - with results at the meeting points...

This will clearly reveal truths, doublespeak, viable science and straight out falsehoods in an easy to understand format...  it's what Boob Ropahrvar should already have on his desk.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 17, 2015, 10:30:19 pm

Nothing from the Batteroo Fan Boy (I'm starting to think he might be Roohparvar's little nephew perhaps?). Anyway, I'm just waiting for the "What would she know, she's just a journalist and you guys are all poopy heads!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 17, 2015, 10:42:37 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on September 17, 2015, 10:30:19 pm

Nothing from the Batteroo Fan Boy (I'm starting to think he might be Roohparvar's little nephew perhaps?). Anyway, I'm just waiting for the "What would she know, she's just a journalist and you guys are all poopy heads!"

lol, or one of his alter egos, ie: "Daisy Datez"  :-DD |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 18, 2015, 12:06:40 am

It's a good thing they had their "special" non-conductive coating on the Batteriser. By the looks of the FCC test, they tore the outer label off the battery. The regular "un-coated" batteriser would have just shorted out.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Someone on September 18, 2015, 12:38:58 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 06:05:27 am

Quote from: Someone on September 17, 2015, 05:48:43 am

NIDA is a rather exclusive and well regarded organisation

Yes indeed. Many try and and don't make it in each year, let alone finish. If I really was a graduate of NIDA's full course I'd be a hell of a lot better on camera than I am, by maybe 10 orders of magnitude!

That doesn't really matter when you've already made it as a media personality :)

Quote from: drussell on September 17, 2015, 06:57:09 pm

I'm sure, though, that the radiated emissions from any boost converter, especially something like a Batteriser would be significantly higher at, say 1.5 A than they are at 1.5 mA... Who knows what they'll actually be like in real world, typical operation and how they will affect operation when put into some random device that may well have even been intentionally designed without a switching power supply and are assuming it will have a nice, clean, DC battery supply...  :palm:

It will depend on the design of the switching convertor, if there is proportional current control (not just constant on time or pulse dropping) and those emissions are proportional to current through the switching node then it would likely fail the FCC compliance even with a benign 0.5A resistive load. If they ship units it could make for a hilarious report to the FCC from a studious person with enough space and a spectrum analyser.

I'd really like to get my hands on one of these if they ship, we have all the automated equipment to measure the power supply performance and an EMC chamber.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 18, 2015, 12:50:23 am

Quote from: SL4P on September 17, 2015, 09:43:55 pm

Could someone that has been across all the claims, bs and fog of marketing-speak, please put together an easy to read matrix of claims vs actual posted/observed/claimed results?
Batteriser are welcome to contribute with evidence supported claims.
e.g   FCC, UL, date, chemistry, technology, fansite claims on one edge, and responders/ refuters along the other - with results at the meeting points...
This will clearly reveal truths, doublespeak, viable science and straight out falsehoods in an easy to understand format...  it's what Boob Ropahrvar should already have on his desk.

At what point in the campaign though?
One of the more intriguing/confusing parts of this whole campaign is how their claims have changed/backtracked over time as they have been taken to task for various claims.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Spudgun on September 18, 2015, 01:22:26 am

Adding to their arsenal.....

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-adds-former-battery-company-technologist-environmental-advocate-to-advisory-board-300145134.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-adds-former-battery-company-technologist-environmental-advocate-to-advisory-board-300145134.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 18, 2015, 01:41:28 am

Quote from: Spudgun on September 18, 2015, 01:22:26 am

Adding to their arsenal.....

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-adds-former-battery-company-technologist-environmental-advocate-to-advisory-board-300145134.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-adds-former-battery-company-technologist-environmental-advocate-to-advisory-board-300145134.html)

What an interesting article. So they added a couple of more big shots. This is starting to look like a heavy-weight team of experts who obviously must know what they are doing. Just what is going on here? How do you add people to your board and what does that even mean to the company? Are they going to make money from shares or salary? Act as advisors?

I like how they quote Blomgren (Eveready Senior Technology Fellow? What is that?):

Quote

"I have been pleasantly surprised at the depth of understanding of the Roohparvar brothers regarding the Batteriser development,"

And then...

Quote

While their approach can work for any type of battery, the alkaline cell is particularly sensitive because of its steeply decreasing voltage during discharge.  The battery industry has never clearly explained this fact to the consumer, but battery experts have been well aware of the problem and the great waste encountered, especially when devices use relatively high cut-off voltages.

Then they quote Lilienfeld, the environmental expert as saying:

Quote

"Given the ability of Batteriser to significantly reduce battery discards, the savings to both the environment and people's wallets is enormous,"

Now this is all coming from PR Newswire which is simply regurgitating a media press release provided them by Batteroo.... obviously it is going to contain the same over-exaggerated claims they have been mentioning previously.

Wow! This is only getting better. Can't wait for the season finale! : popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 18, 2015, 01:47:27 am

And they go on to say in the PR release:

Quote

Batteriser, currently the only device of its kind, has been tested and proven compatible on a variety of battery-operated home and office gadgets, including wireless keyboards, noise cancelling headphones, Xbox and Wii controllers, TV remote controls, walkie-talkies, digital scales, electric toothbrushes, toys, portable radios, flashlights, and blood pressure monitors.

What about GPS units? Forgot the most important one? :)

Well if they have done all that testing where is it. I hope these guys Blomgren and Lilienfeld know who they are associating with, lest they get sucked down the same hole once it all implodes in on itself.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on September 18, 2015, 02:06:44 am

This thing is starting to remind me of the Firepower scam. An obvious scam from day one - a magic fuel saver pill you dropped in your gas tank - still managed to bring on high profile investors and secure the backing of the Australian government, including the PM. The "inventor" was receiving enough money to buy himself a few sports teams before the company folded with no product and he fled the country.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 18, 2015, 02:52:47 am

Between all the money flying around...

Between all the heavy-hitters and experts with doctorates getting their pockets lined  ...

Between all the the slick marketing drones ....

Between all the stock options being passed out like Halloween candy ...

Between all of the Death by PowerPuke presentations ..

Between all the VCs being endlessly pandered to ...

Not one person seems to be able perform the thunderingly obvious act to place fresh AAs into a device, attach a logging voltmeter, wait, read the result, and speak the truth.

Not one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: chadb on September 18, 2015, 03:33:59 am

Another engineering professor weighs in on batteriser:

http://media.theage.com.au/technology/tech-talk/batteriser-too-good-to-be-true-6853920.html (http://media.theage.com.au/technology/tech-talk/batteriser-too-good-to-be-true-6853920.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 18, 2015, 03:35:06 am

Quote from: Nerull on September 18, 2015, 02:06:44 am

This thing is starting to remind me of the Firepower scam. An obvious scam from day one - a magic fuel saver pill you dropped in your gas tank - still managed to bring on high profile investors and secure the backing of the Australian government, including the PM. The "inventor" was receiving enough money to buy himself a few sports teams before the company folded with no product and he fled the country.

I just read the Firepower scam on Wikipedia here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firepower_International (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firepower_International)

Wow! Just wow! You are right, it is shaping up to be the same sort of high-brass con-job. Except this time they are being called out from day one. I'm not sure how Firepower managed to make it so big, it seems to have been debunked early on yet still managed to continue growing unabated. I wonder if Batteriser will just do the same and advertise their way to the masses with oodles of cash from more bilked investors while the scientific community gets silenced.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: neotesla on September 18, 2015, 04:28:56 am

I wonder if they plan to sell the Batteriser in form factor that would fit onto a Tesla Powerwall (http://www.teslamotors.com/en_AU/powerwall). (http://board.crossfit.com/images/cnome/smilies/biggrin.gif)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on September 18, 2015, 05:22:03 am

Someone should just comment on their page that they need an NTIA Exclusion Approval (or some other fake/bogus certification) and see if they come up with a report for it anyway  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 18, 2015, 08:51:50 am

(http://i.imgur.com/NiFXem8.png)

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 18, 2015, 09:06:38 am

Quote from: firewalker on September 18, 2015, 08:51:50 am

(http://i.imgur.com/NiFXem8.png)

Alexander.

Someone should ask him what, and what he considers to be high current.

If you can pull 2watts for 10 minutes, you're not going to increase this to 50 minutes...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 18, 2015, 09:22:24 am

Quote from: SL4P on September 17, 2015, 09:43:55 pm

Could someone that has been across all the claims, bs and fog of marketing-speak, please put together an easy to read matrix of claims vs actual posted/observed/claimed results?
Batteriser are welcome to contribute with evidence supported claims.

e.g   FCC, UL, date, chemistry, technology, fansite claims on one edge, and responders/ refuters along the other - with results at the meeting points...

This will clearly reveal truths, doublespeak, viable science and straight out falsehoods in an easy to understand format...  it's what Boob Ropahrvar should already have on his desk.

I know somebody who could fit that job, I don't know the real name, but on internet he's known as SL4P.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 18, 2015, 09:30:34 am

They have got to start coming up with better fake names than "Rod Walsh". C'mon! Batteroo, you aren't fooling anyone! Since Dave went to NIDA, maybe he can assist you in being a bit more creative?  :-DD At least do what you did with the "paid dislikes" thing and pay some Vietnamese to comment on your videos for you.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 18, 2015, 10:36:16 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 18, 2015, 02:52:47 am

Not one person seems to be able perform the thunderingly obvious act to place fresh AAs into a device, attach a logging voltmeter, wait, read the result, and speak the truth.

Not one.

Who needs a voltmeter?

The reason is obvious: NOBODY has been alone with a Batteriser for ten minutes to try it out. Not one person.

(Which in itself is a red flag about 1 mile wide, but nobody seems to have noticed that either.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on September 18, 2015, 10:52:27 am

Quote from: edy on September 18, 2015, 01:47:27 am

And they go on to say in the PR release:

Quote

Batteriser, currently the only device of its kind, has been tested and proven compatible on a variety of battery-operated home and office gadgets, including wireless keyboards, noise cancelling headphones, Xbox and Wii controllers, TV remote controls, walkie-talkies, digital scales, electric toothbrushes, toys, portable radios, flashlights, and blood pressure monitors.

What about GPS units? Forgot the most important one? :)

I'm very surprised that digital camera is not in that list. Out of all the products listed, that's the one that probably exhibits the highest current spikes that could trigger an early cut out as Batteroo claims, and in fact the Zinniker paper they love to quote specifically singled out such a camera.  AND, the syyenergy guy points out that his camera will only record 5-8 minutes on alkalines, so obviously a high load device like this (which Batteroo claims gives the BEST improvement) would be one of the KEY products that Batteroo would put out there as proof of their product's worth, not to mention one that I'm sure people are familiar with and probably are specifically frustrated with short battery life.

The fact that it's NOT on that list really says something, doesn't it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on September 18, 2015, 11:08:40 am

The TV remote control reappears on the list. Something that was earlier on mentioned by the company as an item where the product wouldn't give advantage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 18, 2015, 11:14:13 am

Their statement doesn't claim to have gained any performance...

Quote

has been tested and proven compatible on a variety of battery-operated home and office gadgets

"compatible" simply means it fits... it doesn't mean it gains any performance.

"tested" simply means the device still turned on.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 18, 2015, 12:11:26 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 18, 2015, 11:14:13 am

"compatible" simply means it fits... it doesn't mean it gains any performance.

"tested" simply means the device still turned on.

Yeah, the vast majority of their claims (virtually everything, except for a few slip-ups) and marketing hooey have been very carefully worded to say absolutely nothing at all.  All the grandiose claims are qualified with an "up to.." for example and they're going to extreme lengths to avoid actually releasing any data or allow any kind of performance testing and real results.  I'm convinced they know what they're doing with this BS and are intentionally obfuscating the truth at every turn.

Many people fall for that ruse, unfortunately...  It's all so very, very sad...  :palm:

 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on September 18, 2015, 12:36:11 pm

Quote from: drussell on September 18, 2015, 12:11:26 pm

Many people fall for that ruse, unfortunately...  It's all so very, very sad...  :palm:

That's the way it is. We can't save the world from BS and we shouldn't put too much effort into the whole debunking. It's always the same process. When you (as the engineer) say something critical you'll be the grinch. Later on, when most people realize that the whole thing is BS, it's your turn to say "I've told you so". Works every time ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bitwelder on September 18, 2015, 02:43:13 pm

Quote from: firewalker on September 18, 2015, 08:51:50 am

(http://i.imgur.com/NiFXem8.png)

Alexander.

So Rod Walsh has a company running on high-drained batteries?   ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 18, 2015, 02:49:08 pm

D'you think it's the same Rod: http://creation.com/rod-walsh-ark-van (http://creation.com/rod-walsh-ark-van)

It would make sense ;)

This is this one too: https://www (https://www). youtube.com/watch?v=vSQj_j_SA3A which would make even more sense

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 18, 2015, 02:50:03 pm

Quote from: bitwelder on September 18, 2015, 02:43:13 pm

Quote from: firewalker on September 18, 2015, 08:51:50 am

(http://i.imgur.com/NiFXem8.png)

Alexander.

So Rod Walsh has a company running on high-drained batteries?   ::)

Hat fan company?

(http://www.imhimports.com/fanhat/fanhatvisor.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 18, 2015, 03:16:19 pm

Quote from: madires on September 18, 2015, 12:36:11 pm

Quote from: drussell on September 18, 2015, 12:11:26 pm

Many people fall for that ruse, unfortunately...  It's all so very, very sad...  :palm:

That's the way it is. We can't save the world from BS and we shouldn't put too much effort into the whole debunking. It's always the same process. When you (as the engineer) say something critical you'll be the grinch. Later on, when most people realize that the whole thing is BS, it's your turn to say "I've told you so". Works every time ;)

The issue really isn't the product. The primary issue is the claims being made by persons educated and familiar in the art that cannot be substantiated by sound and obvious methods.

Then there is the issue of the test protocols that are being submitted to test laboratories that bear little resemblance to the actual normal operation region of the device. I fully understand the need for a passive load in an RF chamber. Using a 1K ohm resistor to generate a 2.25 mW load on a device that supposedly works best on a high drain device with a 100-200X load does not make a representative test. It is surprising that someone would submit such a "test" to the FCC as the basis for approval.  I could understand the 2.25 mW load as part of a *series* of tests, but certainly not as the one and only test.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on September 18, 2015, 03:50:08 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 18, 2015, 03:16:19 pm

Quote from: madires on September 18, 2015, 12:36:11 pm

Quote from: drussell on September 18, 2015, 12:11:26 pm

Many people fall for that ruse, unfortunately...  It's all so very, very sad...  :palm:

That's the way it is. We can't save the world from BS and we shouldn't put too much effort into the whole debunking. It's always the same process. When you (as the engineer) say something critical you'll be the grinch. Later on, when most people realize that the whole thing is BS, it's your turn to say "I've told you so". Works every time ;)

The issue really isn't the product. The primary issue is the claims being made by persons educated and familiar in the art that cannot be substantiated by sound and obvious methods.

Actually I meant the whole package including marketing and what have you. And it's not just Batteriser, it happens all the time, mostly in companies. Some brilliant idea from some manager, things like that. I've met EEs working in the sales department, talking a lot of BS and not having any idea about what they are selling.

Quote

Then there is the issue of the test protocols that are being submitted to test laboratories that bear little resemblance to the actual normal operation region of the device. I fully understand the need for a passive load in an RF chamber. Using a 1K ohm resistor to generate a 2.25 mW load on a device that supposedly works best on a high drain device with a 100-200X load does not make a representative test. It is surprising that someone would submit such a "test" to the FCC as the basis for approval.  I could understand the 2.25 mW load as part of a *series* of tests, but certainly not as the one and only test.

I fully agree. But even the FCC isn't foolproof.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 18, 2015, 04:46:06 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 18, 2015, 03:16:19 pm

The issue really isn't the product. The primary issue is the claims being made by persons educated and familiar in the art that cannot be substantiated by sound and obvious methods.

Well, thats just it.  Most of their claims are backed up with disclamers and "up-to"s to the point that they actually mean nothing.  They are inferring the product will actually meet somewhere close to what these claims sound like they're claiming at first glance and doing it in a way which will mislead many (if not most) people but most of their claims seem to be very carefully worded to avoid actually making any claims at all.  :palm:

Quote

Then there is the issue of the test protocols that are being submitted to test laboratories that bear little resemblance to the actual normal operation region of the device. I fully understand the need for a passive load in an RF chamber. Using a 1K ohm resistor to generate a 2.25 mW load on a device that supposedly works best on a high drain device with a 100-200X load does not make a representative test. It is surprising that someone would submit such a "test" to the FCC as the basis for approval.  I could understand the 2.25 mW load as part of a *series* of tests, but certainly not as the one and only test.

Again, they seem to be doing all of this intentionally.  Instead of actually having their product tested for performance in real-world scenarios, they supply a test hand-picked to be meaningless and misleading.  Instead of having their product tested for radiated emissions in worst-case scenario tests as you should when using sound engineering principles, they have it tested with a very light load to virtually assure passing the test but tell nothing about real-world applications and usage...  :palm:

It's all very underhanded and misleading but carefully disecting their claims shows most of them to actually mean nothing.  Very, very deceptive! :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on September 18, 2015, 07:35:31 pm

just posted to Announcements

Quote

Check out what our newest expert advisory board members say about Batteriser!

With more than 20 U.S. patents covering many aspects of battery technology, Blomgren currently serves as President of Blomgren Consulting Services, consulting with companies around the world on battery technology and applications; and as an Adjunct Professor in the Department of Chemical Engineering at Case Western Reserve University.  During a 41-year career with Union Carbide Corp., which evolved into the Eveready Battery Co., he worked on several advancements in battery technologies, earning the company's highest technical position - Senior Technology Fellow. After Eveready, Blomgren founded and was Chief Scientist of Imara Corp.  He has also served as Associate Editor of the Journal of the Electrochemical Society, Chair of the ECS Battery Division, and adjunct professor at Carnegie Mellon University.


"I have been pleasantly surprised at the depth of understanding of the Roohparvar brothers regarding the Batteriser development," said Blomgren.  "They were able to look at a problem with alkaline batteries related to extracting the maximum capacity from each cell and relate it to their deep knowledge of electronic circuitry.  While their approach can work for any type of battery, the alkaline cell is particularly sensitive because of its steeply decreasing voltage during discharge.  The battery industry has never clearly explained this fact to the consumer, but battery experts have been well aware of the problem and the great waste encountered, especially when devices use relatively high cut-off voltages. But the industry has never produced a means to solve or get around the problem.  These men and their staffs are very enterprising, thoughtful and intelligent in their approach to a new and revolutionary battery device."


Learn more, and also read what board member and environmental advocate Bob Lillenfield of use less stuff  has said about us,  here:   http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-adds-former-battery-company-technologist-environmental-advocate-to-advisory-board-300145134.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-adds-former-battery-company-technologist-environmental-advocate-to-advisory-board-300145134.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 18, 2015, 07:40:07 pm

More reference to authority (people on the payroll), instead of unequivocal demonstration of the product capability.  ::)

What deep knowledge of circuitry is required to stick an off-the-shelf converter on top of a AA battery?
Or do they still maintain they cooked up their own converter in a QFN package, without infringing on the existing patents?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 18, 2015, 07:44:39 pm

Quote from: bitwelder on September 18, 2015, 02:43:13 pm

Quote from: firewalker on September 18, 2015, 08:51:50 am

(http://i.imgur.com/NiFXem8.png)

Alexander.

So Rod Walsh has a company running on high-drained batteries?   ::)

I think Rod will be disappointed. I wonder if he'll sue Ali R. for lying to him.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on September 18, 2015, 08:45:45 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 18, 2015, 03:16:19 pm

Then there is the issue of the test protocols that are being submitted to test laboratories that bear little resemblance to the actual normal operation region of the device. I fully understand the need for a passive load in an RF chamber. Using a 1K ohm resistor to generate a 2.25 mW load on a device that supposedly works best on a high drain device with a 100-200X load does not make a representative test. It is surprising that someone would submit such a "test" to the FCC as the basis for approval.  I could understand the 2.25 mW load as part of a *series* of tests, but certainly not as the one and only test.

A test with multiple batterisers in series would also be necessary IMO. Almost all devices I know need at least 2 batteries, so that's very normal use-case. Multiple switchers in series can create interference frequencies, and the switching noise of one batteriser could confuse the control-loop of the other. I also think it would be more realistic to connect the resistor with wires of 10cm or so.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on September 18, 2015, 08:54:46 pm

Quote from: jancumps on September 18, 2015, 11:08:40 am

The TV remote control reappears on the list. Something that was earlier on mentioned by the company as an item where the product wouldn't give advantage.

Yeah, I'v also read that. But if you look at the igg-story the first example they show is a... remote!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on September 18, 2015, 09:11:33 pm

Quote from: PeterL on September 18, 2015, 08:54:46 pm

Quote from: jancumps on September 18, 2015, 11:08:40 am

The TV remote control reappears on the list. Something that was earlier on mentioned by the company as an item where the product wouldn't give advantage.

Yeah, I'v also read that. But if you look at the igg-story the first example they show is a... remote!

Maybe they mean this one :D http://www.amazon.co.uk/Universal-Remote-Massive-Buttons-Satillite/dp/B0011OVNHI (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Universal-Remote-Massive-Buttons-Satillite/dp/B0011OVNHI)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Stephan_T on September 18, 2015, 11:23:41 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 18, 2015, 07:40:07 pm

More reference to authority (people on the payroll), instead of unequivocal demonstration of the product capability.  ::)

The adVenture Capitalists seem to be incompetent:

Quote

Source: Bateroo's press agency (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-adds-former-battery-company-technologist-environmental-advocate-to-advisory-board-300145134.html)
[...] Blomgren founded and was Chief Scientist of Imara Corp.

That was 2006.

Quote

Source: the same press agency working for Imara Corp.: (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/imara-corporation-introduces-advanced-lithium-ion-battery-technology-for-high-power-applications-65395782.html)
Imara is Swahili for strength, power and endurance.

Quote

Source: blogs.wsj.com, Dec 9, 2009 :
"Turning Out The Lights: Imara, A Lithium-Ion Battery Maker" (http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2009/12/09/turning-out-the-lights-imara-a-lithium-ion-battery-maker/)

Menlo Park, Calif.-based Imara, which on Tuesday announced its closing in a blog post titled 'A Day that will live in Infamy (http://www.imaracorp.com/blog/?p=46),'[*] had been seeking $20 million from venture capitalists since April, said Neil Maguire, the company’s business development executive, in an inteview. But Imara’s difficulties in setting up manufacturing and its lack of customer-verified technology spooked potential investors, while existing backers Battery Ventures and Nth Power LLC decided to cut their risk exposure to the company.

[*] Who ever wants to (re)write the cry-baby story of "Imara's Life in Infamy" can purchase the domain "imaracorp.com" (where the wsj blog article links to) for $2395 at hugedomains.com (http://www.hugedomains.com/domain_profile.cfm?d=imaracorp&e=com).
Big chance for BIG BATTREY :) :box: >:D

If you want to refer to his authority, you might at least spend pocked change to clean up his past before announcing him as new advisory board member.

I have not looked much into Bob Lilienfeld and what kind of reputation "The ULS Report" has, but he/they have  quite some history of recommending rechargeable batteries (https://www.google.de/search?q=site:use-less-stuff.com+batteries), which is a much better solution than the Batteriser nonsense.
Maybe he wants to become the "Matthew Lesko" of greenwashing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwashing).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: joseph.anand on September 19, 2015, 12:06:59 am

Quote from: PeterL on September 18, 2015, 08:45:45 pm

.... Multiple switchers in series can create interference frequencies, and the switching noise of one batteriser could confuse the control-loop of the other.

I had faced a similar problem. Except that my circuit being powered (an oscillator) was affecting the boost circuit which in turn fed back to my circuit. Had to use an LDO in between the two to fix it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 19, 2015, 02:11:07 am

Quote from: PeterL on September 18, 2015, 08:45:45 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 18, 2015, 03:16:19 pm

Then there is the issue of the test protocols that are being submitted to test laboratories that bear little resemblance to the actual normal operation region of the device. I fully understand the need for a passive load in an RF chamber. Using a 1K ohm resistor to generate a 2.25 mW load on a device that supposedly works best on a high drain device with a 100-200X load does not make a representative test. It is surprising that someone would submit such a "test" to the FCC as the basis for approval.  I could understand the 2.25 mW load as part of a *series* of tests, but certainly not as the one and only test.

A test with multiple batterisers in series would also be necessary IMO. Almost all devices I know need at least 2 batteries, so that's very normal use-case. Multiple switchers in series can create interference frequencies, and the switching noise of one batteriser could confuse the control-loop of the other. I also think it would be more realistic to connect the resistor with wires of 10cm or so.

While I highly suspect that arbitrarily daisy chaining boost converters in series is going to cause issues, that one is much tougher to test. Daisy chaining four batterisers in series is going to give people efficiency nightmares. Four 90% efficient boost converters will yield a 65% conversion process.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on September 19, 2015, 02:30:16 am

This is a self-extinct product, people will be throwing it away together with the depleted batteries either because they forget or because they thought it was a one time use thingy.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 19, 2015, 03:47:55 am

Quote from: Stephan_T on September 18, 2015, 11:23:41 pm

If you want to refer to his authority, you might at least spend pocked change to clean up his past before announcing him as new advisory board member.

I have not looked much into Bob Lilienfeld and what kind of reputation "The ULS Report" has, but he/they have  quite some history of recommending rechargeable batteries, which is a much better solution than the Batteriser nonsense.
Maybe he wants to become the "Matthew Lesko" of greenwashing.

These shady business people can hide among real companies and live off VC funding for years, then move on once the business fails. They make enough to live for 5-10 years, then sprout back up again. Look at Stephen Marsh and his team of suits who raised over 1 million on IGG to make the "Airing" CPAP device, which is looking to be a complete scam. His background is not clean either. Same pattern of creating a fuel or energy cell related company with VC cash and then coming up with absolutely nothing.

The VC's just throw money at anything and hope some of it sticks and it becomes huge. They figure they might lose some, but better to fund it. Why not do some due diligence like asking for an independent review to determine if the company actually has any leg to stand on, or are they inventing or trying to sell something impossible?

Some would call it white collar crime, and the amount of money being swindled probably dwarfs the other thefts by more violent criminals. But nobody is forcing VC's and IGG backers from giving them money. They should have done their homework!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: nitro2k01 on September 19, 2015, 09:02:30 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 19, 2015, 02:11:07 am

While I highly suspect that arbitrarily daisy chaining boost converters in series is going to cause issues, that one is much tougher to test. Daisy chaining four batterisers in series is going to give people efficiency nightmares. Four 90% efficient boost converters will yield a 65% conversion process.

I think you misread that. Not 4 of them stacked, but 4 batteries in series, each with a Batteriser. That's going to give you "just" the same loss as in one unit, assuming no additional probldms like interference. It won't automatically give you (.9)^4.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 19, 2015, 09:24:32 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 18, 2015, 07:40:07 pm

...Or do they still maintain they cooked up their own converter in a QFN package, without infringing on the existing patents?

You entered an interesting aspect here.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 19, 2015, 05:29:08 pm

Quote from: nitro2k01 on September 19, 2015, 09:02:30 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 19, 2015, 02:11:07 am

While I highly suspect that arbitrarily daisy chaining boost converters in series is going to cause issues, that one is much tougher to test. Daisy chaining four batterisers in series is going to give people efficiency nightmares. Four 90% efficient boost converters will yield a 65% conversion process.

I think you misread that. Not 4 of them stacked, but 4 batteries in series, each with a Batteriser. That's going to give you "just" the same loss as in one unit, assuming no additional probldms like interference. It won't automatically give you (.9)^4.

I henceforth shall forsake interwebbing in the midst of performing bicycle repair.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on September 20, 2015, 02:40:19 am

Come on guys.  It's been hours and no new posts!  Is interest finally fading??

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on September 20, 2015, 02:41:06 am

Quote from: Smokey on September 20, 2015, 02:40:19 am

Come on guys.  It's been hours and no new posts!  Is interest finally fading??

It reached the cut off voltage ;)

Edit: we need a blogeriser to get it going to 20,800 post.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 20, 2015, 03:44:23 am

Quote from: Smokey on September 20, 2015, 02:40:19 am

Come on guys.  It's been hours and no new posts!  Is interest finally fading??

Nope, I think we're all just waiting for the next episode of the Batteroo Comedy Show. I'm sure those crazy kids are busy thinking up some more funnies for us.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on September 20, 2015, 03:53:50 am

I don't know what the go is with IGG purchases but in certain countries the consumer has rights in regards to warranties and goods failing to work as promoted, I would expect that these products are provided with an invoice or proof of sale should a claim be required.

Additionally if I had the motivation and if this product failed as promoted then a list of those web sites that openly advertised the gadget as being a revolutionary concept would be added to my router as blocked sites, never to be visited again, not even by accident.

Good work by all concerned.... :-+

Muttley
   

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 20, 2015, 07:24:01 am

I found these in some old PC hardware I got...

Made in Australia, haven't leaked, and appear to be dated the 5th week, 1993...

And each cell is still sitting at 0.8volts...

Now, do they work in my led torch?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=172009;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 20, 2015, 08:51:03 am

So 5 days left in the campaign, and looks like they might get say $375K
After fees they'll maybe get $345K and by my count they have sold 120K units (all types)
So they have to produce them and ship them at $2.82 per unit just the break even, not including their half dozen staff and all the money they have spent up until this point.
Good luck.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 20, 2015, 09:02:11 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 20, 2015, 08:51:03 am

So they have to produce them and ship them at $2.82 per unit just the break even, not including their half dozen staff and all the money they have spent up until this point.
Good luck.

Rubbing in the salt?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on September 20, 2015, 09:16:08 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 20, 2015, 08:51:03 am

So they have to produce them and ship them at $2.82 per unit just the break even, not including their half dozen staff and all the money they have spent up until this point. Good luck.

The only way that price would work is that they use chinese one hung lo parts, chinese back yard manufacturing and chinese shipping like we see on these DC/DC converters you can get cheap from ebay for example.

I personally think they will never ship large quantities and go bankrupt even blaming it on all the "Battery industry paid hate videos and articles" or something. And I hope that I am wrong.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 20, 2015, 09:20:50 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 20, 2015, 09:02:11 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 20, 2015, 08:51:03 am

So they have to produce them and ship them at $2.82 per unit just the break even, not including their half dozen staff and all the money they have spent up until this point.
Good luck.

Rubbing in the salt?

Nope, just pointing out a common scenario that many of these crowd funding campaigns find themselves in. Successful, but not successful enough to actually make a profit, so unless they can get money from somewhere else, they will go out of business.
In reality though, Batteriser have a lot of money behind them from a VC company, hence their crazy low crowd funding goal. Their goal is clearly not to make money from this campaign (and that's good for them, because they won't make money), it's just a stepping stone to their grander plan.
Will be interesting to see how long it takes them to deliver.
And of course once they deliver a single unit, the technical world will be able to actually test it and verify it, which I'm sure they are not looking forward to. If they were looking forward to it then they would have already handed them out like candy to all their critics.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 20, 2015, 09:22:45 am

Quote from: Chipguy on September 20, 2015, 09:16:08 am

I personally think they will never ship large quantities and go bankrupt even blaming it on all the "Battery industry paid hate videos and articles" or something. And I hope that I am wrong.

I don't see that happening, they have too much invested in this, and too many big names looking to cash-in. The VC will continue to fund until they deliver and no doubt get that huge retail Walmart type deal they must be lusting after. That's the big game, the indiegogo campaign is chump change.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 20, 2015, 09:43:56 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 20, 2015, 09:22:45 am

I don't see that happening, they have too much invested in this, and too many big names looking to cash-in. The VC will continue to fund until they deliver and no doubt get that huge retail Walmart type deal they must be lusting after. That's the big game, the indiegogo campaign is chump change.

Yep. If they can get it into Walmart then it'll sell millions no matter how many bad reviews it has on the 'net.

Walmart isn't stupid, they'll test it of course. At the end of the day though they'll only be looking at the profit margin and the percentage of people who are likely to return it.

We know that short term it will appear to work - battery level indicators will jump to 100%, etc. Will that be enough to confuse people and stop them from returning it? The time it all takes to implode and move on to the next big scam will depend a lot on psychology.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 20, 2015, 09:47:54 am

When are they going to ship? Around Xmas?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 20, 2015, 09:49:19 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 20, 2015, 09:43:56 am

Yep. If they can get it into Walmart then it'll sell millions no matter how many bad reviews it has on the 'net.

They have the former CEO of K-Mart on their team for a reason.

Quote

Walmart isn't stupid, they'll test it of course.

They plug it in and it'll "work" of course. They'll look at the UL and FCC reports and tick, approved.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 20, 2015, 09:49:41 am

They said November for the backers

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 20, 2015, 10:01:03 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 20, 2015, 09:49:19 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 20, 2015, 09:43:56 am

Walmart isn't stupid, they'll test it of course.

They plug it in and it'll "work" of course. They'll look at the UL and FCC reports and tick, approved.

Walmart isn't too proud to sell useless laundry balls and magnetic fung-shui insoles to people, they just don't want any returns.

The insole people probably aren't going to come back and say "I've been wearing them for two weeks and I'm not rich yet".

The Batteriser is actually measurable though. A claim of "8x longer" is easy to see. You'll small a rat as soon as you put them in a flashlight expecting it to come back to life for more than 2 minutes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GoneTomorrow on September 20, 2015, 10:02:11 am

So theoretically in 2 months a bunch of people here will have units in hand for analysis. We'll see; if it actually ships on time I'll eat my hat.

The only crowd funded project I had ship on time was the uArm, by a group of (perhaps stereotypically ironic) Chinese engineers. They busted ass and worked the project around the deadline they'd set, rather than slipping the dates half a dozen times. Rather impressed to get the product 100% as advertised and on time (we already know Batteriser failed on one of these  :-DD)

Anyway, kind of actually hoping it DOES ship soon so we can get some proper scientific data on it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: robby1995 on September 20, 2015, 10:13:01 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 20, 2015, 07:24:01 am

I found these in some old PC hardware I got...

Made in Australia, haven't leaked, and appear to be dated the 5th week, 1993...

And each cell is still sitting at 0.8volts...

Now, do they work in my led torch?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=172009;image)

With batterizer they will  :-DD

Energy left in the batteries for 0minutes of operation
Times 8 with batterizer = 0 minutes

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 20, 2015, 10:36:16 am

Quote from: robby1995 on September 20, 2015, 10:13:01 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 20, 2015, 07:24:01 am

I found these in some old PC hardware I got...

Made in Australia, haven't leaked, and appear to be dated the 5th week, 1993...

And each cell is still sitting at 0.8volts...

Now, do they work in my led torch?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=172009;image)

With batterizer they will  :-DD

Energy left in the batteries for 0minutes of operation
Times 8 with batterizer = 0 minutes

They actually run the LED torch fine, probably only get a few minutes from each, but I reckon these are bloody brilliant quality cells!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on September 20, 2015, 10:56:26 am

Made back when Eveready actually made good cells. That they have not leaked means you had the ones made just after the machine maintenance cycle, where everything was perfect in assembly.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 20, 2015, 10:59:01 am

Quote from: Godzil on September 20, 2015, 09:49:41 am

They said November for the backers

They also said a few weeks for "press kits". What's the bet they don't send me one...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 20, 2015, 11:36:45 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 20, 2015, 10:59:01 am

Quote from: Godzil on September 20, 2015, 09:49:41 am

They said November for the backers

They also said a few weeks for "press kits". What's the bet they don't send me one...

I'm guessing you're not their most favourite individual just at the moment; if Daisy Dukez/Davey Jonez/etc is anything to go on...  >:D

You know a thing or two about product design and bill of materials etc, so help me out here:

I just can't add it up. Promotion and marketing, plus designing and having an integrated circuit manufactured from scratch, plus say minimum 2 resistors, 2 capacitors, and 1 Inductor, plus at least a diode for reverse polarity protection, plus a custom PCB, plus the metal shell, plus anodising or coating in the red coating to prevent shorts, plus the manufacture of that snazzy plastic case they come in, plus shipping...
They've GOT to be losing money at less than $2.50 per SKU...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 20, 2015, 12:26:08 pm

Quote from: firewalker on September 20, 2015, 09:47:54 am

When are they going to ship? Around Xmas?

Alexander.

If they're smart, never. The only units that seem to exist at the moment are the AA version. Those are the only ones that have been submitted for test. That means that they will need to spool up the AAA, C and D versions from scratch between now and the first week of November to have any hope of getting on a container that will make it in time. This is exceedingly unlikely.

These guys are angry and lashing out for a reason: because they are going to have to effectively tape money to everything they sell.  I'm sure that there are some heated internal discussions about just how much more money will be consumed before profits arrive.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Psycho on September 20, 2015, 12:47:58 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 20, 2015, 12:26:08 pm

These guys are angry and lashing out for a reason: because they are going to have to effectively tape money to everything they sell.  I'm sure that there are some heated internal discussions about just how much more money will be consumed before profits arrive.

A funny thought.  :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 20, 2015, 12:49:33 pm

Quote from: samgab on September 20, 2015, 11:36:45 am

They've GOT to be losing money at less than $2.50 per SKU...

Yup, but like I said, that doesn't matter. They are looking to create a company they can flip for a profit. Well, that's what the VC's are in it for anyway.
The BOM cost does come way down once you start talking millions of units though. It could potentially be made quite cheap given enough investment in tooling.
And their current advertised price isn't necessarily what you'd buy it in Walmart for.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 20, 2015, 12:57:46 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 20, 2015, 12:26:08 pm

If they're smart, never. The only units that seem to exist at the moment are the AA version. Those are the only ones that have been submitted for test. That means that they will need to spool up the AAA, C and D versions from scratch between now and the first week of November to have any hope of getting on a container that will make it in time. This is exceedingly unlikely.

And that's the trick. They have packaged AA and AAA versions in a lot of the backer deals. Unlikely they'd ship the AA first then the AAA's as that's double postage and handling.
They have sold both "Early Bird" AA and AAA packages, so will be interesting to see what they ship first.
It's likely the AAA prototypes don't even exist yet, otherwise I'm sure they would have been proud to show off such a miniaturisation feat.
So I agree that in that case it's very unlikely to see any AAA's shipped on time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lampbus on September 20, 2015, 01:29:35 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 20, 2015, 09:49:19 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 20, 2015, 09:43:56 am

Yep. If they can get it into Walmart then it'll sell millions no matter how many bad reviews it has on the 'net.

They have the former CEO of K-Mart on their team for a reason.

Quote

Walmart isn't stupid, they'll test it of course.

They plug it in and it'll "work" of course. They'll look at the UL and FCC reports and tick, approved.

Here in the UK we have a massive supermarket chain called ASDA, owned by Walmart...I purchased a small weather stationthat was heavily discounted - I think it only cost £4.00.
Anyway - it is junk - the batteries in the outside radio transmitting part die in days, and the internal receiver is not much better.
It may or may not have UL, CE, TuV (I have not checked) but it now has a small solar panel and schotky diode powering the rechargeable battery in the outside part (mounted on my roof)

So it worked - and provided me some interest, but basically for anyone who was not able to mod it - it would be a useless battery guzzler five min toy.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 20, 2015, 01:39:50 pm

They are supposed to produce and deliver before the end of November 2015 to 6,815 people (last count):
61,446 AA sleeves
27,766 AAA sleeves
3,824 C sleeves
4,542 D sleeves

or a total of 97,578 sleeves and matching carry case!  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on September 20, 2015, 01:44:04 pm

Even if they lost $1 per unit ($100K) it would be enough for them to get a big deal. $100K spent for targeted advertising is nothing compared to their burn rate.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 20, 2015, 01:46:30 pm

Quote from: samgab on September 20, 2015, 11:36:45 am

I just can't add it up. Promotion and marketing, plus designing and having an integrated circuit manufactured from scratch, plus say minimum 2 resistors, 2 capacitors, and 1 Inductor, plus at least a diode for reverse polarity protection, plus a custom PCB, plus the metal shell, plus anodising or coating in the red coating to prevent shorts, plus the manufacture of that snazzy plastic case they come in, plus shipping...
They've GOT to be losing money at less than $2.50 per SKU...

Yes, it has been brought up many times in this thread. We have all doubted even the $300k they have is enough to do anything, and even with $1 million VC funding, it takes a massive effort to set up a completely new manufacturing line to fabricate the thousands of Batterisers they need to fulfill just their IGG campaign (not to mention stocking retail stores). Never mind the actual BOM and costs to finish and package and ship the products.

So unless they just make a "sleeve" with a chip on board (may be cheaper) or just fake the entire thing like those Calculators with "solar cells" which are actually plastic look-a-likes, you will probably see the cost in stores increase substantially. Not only does Batteroo need to make money, but also the retailers. Or this is all vapor ware and nothing will ever be delivered, as they were hoping somebody would have bought the company already.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 20, 2015, 04:46:36 pm

For 100k pieces the storage box, and the metal piece would not cost a lot, especially is the plastic storage piece is made to accommodate all the batteriser version. If not of course that's a different story, but even for 10k pieces molded plastique is not that expensive, (apart maybe for transparent one)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 20, 2015, 05:39:44 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 20, 2015, 04:46:36 pm

even for 10k pieces molded plastique is not that expensive, (apart maybe for transparent one)

The Batteriser one is transparent...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 20, 2015, 07:03:17 pm

That's why I add this point ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 20, 2015, 07:11:47 pm

The plastic is cheap but the dies are what are expensive

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on September 20, 2015, 07:19:03 pm

Blow moulded plastic for a cover is very cheap, once you have the tooling in place. Then you just heat, step and blow and cut out from the scrap.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 20, 2015, 09:18:06 pm

Transparent plastic need more attention than normal because lots of parameter will make your plastic fragile, not at the correct transparency level etc...

It quite hard to make.

Anyway, I've just found that I have that IKEA stuff running on double AA since at least last February, (under load) one battery is at about 1.0 the other at 1.5.. And it takes about 0.6mA.....

With its 800x power expansion, a batteriser would make it run for years! As it has run for merely 9 month and is still working in a good shape!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 20, 2015, 10:15:06 pm

These plastic cases are injection-molded, not blow molded.  I'm guessing that the AA case costs in the neighborhood of $0.50 USD each  based on a two-cavity 200 ton press with a 30 second cycle time and clear HIPS material.  That's assuming there is no wastage, no setup charge, no shipping, no tool amortization, etc.  Just press time and material time.  And I'm assuming that it's an optimized tool with nice, thin-walled plastic. 

That is *not* "cheap."  That is at least $1.00 to $1.50 in product price by the time you factor in distribution and retail markups.  You have to realize that they have this expensive case *ON TOP* of the retail packaging.  I have no idea of what they were thinking with that.  Packaging is already expensive. 

Then there's the type of tool that needs to be purchased.  This is where they're really going to feel pain.  They surely budgeted the part price with a multi-cavity hot-nozzle tool for no waste and no trimming.  Well, kiss that plan goodbye if they aren't planning to dig deep in their own pockets.  Now, they're down to a cold-runner tool with sub-gates that generate maybe 25% of the part weight as scrap that they don't dare regrind back in if they don't want black specs showing up. 

China used to basically give their machine time away for free.  I don't think they can do that any longer.  I think that a quality molded part will be cheaper there, but not half or 1/4 price like it used to be during the bad old days of the Asian financial crisis. 

For anyone that hasn't done it, running clear plastic at a custom molder that runs every other kind of plastic through the same machines ...
...  well ... it's a nightmare.  An absolute nightmare.  There will be black specs everywhere.  The scrap rates just go through the roof.  You need a molder that has machines dedicated to clear resins that have a very strict cleaning regimen for the extruder.  There are also a lot of cleanliness considerations in order to prevent contamination.  I won't bore you with them all. 

And to me, it looks like the case for the Batterisers are model-specific.  There's no way they're stuffing a D-cell in the AA  model they have shown.

Like I've said before, the worst punishment there is - is for Batteroo to actually have to manufacture and ship.   

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 20, 2015, 10:22:58 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 20, 2015, 04:46:36 pm

For 100k pieces the storage box, and the metal piece would not cost a lot,

The tooling and the scrap rate on the metal are what's going to bite Batteroo ... hard.  That little clip is stainless, which is OK when you're laser-cutting, but not on a progressive die.  I'll leave it to Batteroo to find out why their scrap rate will be so high. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ludzinc on September 20, 2015, 10:47:28 pm

Regards the stainless strip - could Batteriser be using that as the boost inductor?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 20, 2015, 11:25:22 pm

Quote from: ludzinc on September 20, 2015, 10:47:28 pm

Regards the stainless strip - could Batteriser be using that as the boost inductor?

Unlikely. Unless there's a coil inside there with a ferrous core to increase the magnetic flux. If the sleeve was designed to go completely around the battery, a coil could be made wrapping around the battery. However, the amount of inductance would be likely low due to the core being a battery... not exactly a good magnetic material. Also it would vary greatly between batteries of different types, and even the same type, depending on how it is made and what materials are used.

Anyhow, the sleeve is unlikely to do anything except act as a conductor from the positive to negative terminal through the boost converter.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on September 21, 2015, 12:06:58 am

Hello everyone! 

(my first post!)

I'm not much of an EE any more but I dabbled a bit when I was younger and have always liked tinkering with stuff, and I really enjoy watching Dave's videos!

Anyway, I have been following the batteriser shenanigans closely and have a some thoughts I wanted to share.  Having worked in electronics retail I can already see device manufacturers stance on batteriser if it ever gets released - they will not offer any warranty or accept refunds/exchanges on products that exhibit "faulty" battery reporting.  And customers are going to get angry.  Why do I think this?  Lets take their Mac Bluetooth keyboard in the promotional video as an example.  How long do you think Apple will tolerate "the battery guage is faulty" claims from customer? especially if it goes 100% (with the boost converter) to 0 and turns off with no in-between?

It will not take long for manufactures to issue "warranty void if used with batteriser" claims on products that have battery monitoring functionality....and 99.9% of customers will genuinely believe the product IS faulty as it will exhibit unusual behaviour.  Retails will notice the uptake in returns / exchanges very quickly.  I expect that itself will lead to some product verification, testing and then withdrawal from retail stores first, with manufactures following shortly after.  If batteriser sales really take off, this could actually lead to inflation of prices as manufacturers perceive lower yields and higher losses due to returns.

It will be chaos

Sorry if i'm not adding much to the discussions,
G

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 21, 2015, 12:35:11 am

Quote from: edy on September 20, 2015, 11:25:22 pm

Anyhow, the sleeve is unlikely to do anything except act as a conductor from the positive to negative terminal through the boost converter.

And act as a heatsink.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ozwolf on September 21, 2015, 12:37:33 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on September 21, 2015, 12:06:58 am

Hello everyone! 

(my first post!)

I'm not much of an EE any more but I dabbled a bit when I was younger and have always liked tinkering with stuff, and I really enjoy watching Dave's videos!

Anyway, I have been following the batteriser shenanigans closely and have a some thoughts I wanted to share.  Having worked in electronics retail I can already see device manufacturers stance on batteriser if it ever gets released - they will not offer any warranty or accept refunds/exchanges on products that exhibit "faulty" battery reporting.  And customers are going to get angry.  Why do I think this?  Lets take their Mac Bluetooth keyboard in the promotional video as an example.  How long do you think Apple will tolerate "the battery guage is faulty" claims from customer? especially if it goes 100% (with the boost converter) to 0 and turns off with no in-between?

It will not take long for manufactures to issue "warranty void if used with batteriser" claims on products that have battery monitoring functionality....and 99.9% of customers will genuinely believe the product IS faulty as it will exhibit unusual behaviour.  Retails will notice the uptake in returns / exchanges very quickly.  I expect that itself will lead to some product verification, testing and then withdrawal from retail stores first, with manufactures following shortly after.  If batteriser sales really take off, this could actually lead to inflation of prices as manufacturers perceive lower yields and higher losses due to returns.

It will be chaos

Sorry if i'm not adding much to the discussions,
G

Not bad for your first post.

I think your comments are valid, and will wait to see the long term outcome of Batteriser use on well designed products.

The parallel here is the use of fuel additives to our cars.  If we add something to our fuel, and damage the engine, you can't expect the manufacturer to honour their warranty.

Ozwolf

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 21, 2015, 12:44:33 am

What is interesting is that the Indiegogo campaign has been funded for almost two months now, but not a single update on actual production issues, which if you look at their timeline is supposed to start the same time as the campaign.
And they were supposed to have all the tooling done before the campaign even started.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on September 21, 2015, 12:52:14 am

Quote from: ozwolf on September 21, 2015, 12:37:33 am

Not bad for your first post.

I think your comments are valid, and will wait to see the long term outcome of Batteriser use on well designed products.

The parallel here is the use of fuel additives to our cars.  If we add something to our fuel, and damage the engine, you can't expect the manufacturer to honour their warranty.

Ozwolf

Of course my comment is only valid if it ever makes it to retail sales....which is doubtful at best

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Don Hills on September 21, 2015, 01:33:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 21, 2015, 12:35:11 am

And act as a heatsink.

Not a very good one, if it's made of stainless steel.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on September 21, 2015, 02:24:11 am

Quote from: ozwolf on September 21, 2015, 12:37:33 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on September 21, 2015, 12:06:58 am

Hello everyone! 

(my first post!)

I'm not much of an EE any more but I dabbled a bit when I was younger and have always liked tinkering with stuff, and I really enjoy watching Dave's videos!

Anyway, I have been following the batteriser shenanigans closely and have a some thoughts I wanted to share.  Having worked in electronics retail I can already see device manufacturers stance on batteriser if it ever gets released - they will not offer any warranty or accept refunds/exchanges on products that exhibit "faulty" battery reporting.  And customers are going to get angry.  Why do I think this?  Lets take their Mac Bluetooth keyboard in the promotional video as an example.  How long do you think Apple will tolerate "the battery guage is faulty" claims from customer? especially if it goes 100% (with the boost converter) to 0 and turns off with no in-between?

It will not take long for manufactures to issue "warranty void if used with batteriser" claims on products that have battery monitoring functionality....and 99.9% of customers will genuinely believe the product IS faulty as it will exhibit unusual behaviour.  Retails will notice the uptake in returns / exchanges very quickly.  I expect that itself will lead to some product verification, testing and then withdrawal from retail stores first, with manufactures following shortly after.  If batteriser sales really take off, this could actually lead to inflation of prices as manufacturers perceive lower yields and higher losses due to returns.

It will be chaos

Sorry if i'm not adding much to the discussions,
G

Not bad for your first post.

I think your comments are valid, and will wait to see the long term outcome of Batteriser use on well designed products.

The parallel here is the use of fuel additives to our cars.  If we add something to our fuel, and damage the engine, you can't expect the manufacturer to honour their warranty.

Ozwolf

Yeah it would be like putting ethanol in a Prius, the engine catches on fire, and then you expect the manufacture to replace the engine.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Stupid Beard on September 21, 2015, 02:35:25 am

Quote from: McCarthy on September 21, 2015, 01:11:33 am

Talking about that fucking promo video with the Apple wireless keyboard: did you guys see that the woman typing on the keyboard actually sits right in-front of a freakin LAPTOP? Why would you need a keyboard for a laptop in the first place? That alone shows how ridiculous their marketing is.

I know people that do that. Usually it's either because they want a numpad or they want to use a keyboard that's more comfortable to type on for long periods. I'm not sure that would apply to the apple keyboard, though.

My apple wireless keyboard was horribly murdered by a cup of tea. It wasn't connected to a laptop, but I could see using a keyboard as a sacrificial thing to avoid loss of the laptop as being a valid use case. For what it's worth, the cuppa was mourned far more than the keyboard was.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 21, 2015, 02:37:53 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2015, 02:36:01 am

Quote from: edy on September 17, 2015, 02:26:21 am

Roohparvar went on to paraphrase Gandhi – "First they will ignore you; then they will laugh at you; then they will fight you; then you will win" – and his first punch in that perceived fight was to discredit Jones for having no formal electrical engineering qualifications, only a degree in performing arts from Australia's National Institute of Dramatic Arts.

Nobody obviously bothered to fact check that  :palm:
Heads up Dr Bob, I don't have a degree in performing arts from NIDA. It's in my linkedIn profile as a joke  :palm:

You know, if it's character assassination they were after, they didn't get very creative. I mean if they really wanted to get crazy making stuff up, they could have made up something about being a fitness instructor, and the author of an e-book about online dating!  :palm:  >:D
Speaking of, I miss Davey Jonez' always insightful comments...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 21, 2015, 02:41:14 am

Quote from: Don Hills on September 21, 2015, 01:33:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 21, 2015, 12:35:11 am

And act as a heatsink.

Not a very good one, if it's made of stainless steel.

Sure, but still a couple of orders of magnitude better than free air.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 21, 2015, 04:10:34 am

I can see a lot of manufacturing difficulties:
Intricate 3D shape of the clip (4 different sets of dies).
Insulation coating, with some areas untouched for electrical contact.
Proper insertion of the populated circular PCB in the clip.
PCB to clip crimp or weld for a durable contact .
Finished product testing for mechanical and electrical reliability.

I'm no expert, but the cost of an automated production line for such a product must be huge.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 21, 2015, 04:49:27 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 21, 2015, 04:10:34 am

I can see a lot of manufacturing difficulties:
Intricate 3D shape of the clip (4 different set of dies).
Isolation coating, with some areas untouched for electrical contact.
Proper insertion of the populated circular PCB in the clip.
PCB to clip crimp or weld for a durable contact .
Finished product testing for mechanical and electrical reliability.

I'm no expert, but the cost of an automated production line for such a product must be huge.

I think that the original plan was to use Flextronics as the custom manufacturer (CM).  The CM will provide the production line and usually will require the client to pay for all custom fixturing, test jigs, etc.  At the current volume, I think there is going to be a question of whether this work is even in Flex's wheelhouse.  $350K is just a tiny, tiny customer for someone like Flex.  There's so much overhead in getting a customer like that set up, that it's just a loser from an overhead standpoint.  A Flex or a Foxconn usually won't take that kind of a client on. 

Knocking out the clip on a progressive die should actually be easy with some exceptions that I'm going to let Batteroo discover.  I've been to Tyco and watched them bang out contacts, and it's really impressive what they can do. 

You're dead on with the coating operation.  That is a major gotcha that they didn't plan on.  I'm assuming it will be a sprayed on coating.  That's going to be tricky because someone is going to have to hand place that spindly thing into a mask.  It's going to add a lot of cost to the product. 

Getting the PCB onto the clip --- well I think you're right there too.  That's going to be a DFM learning experience for someone.

Aside from the SMT work, the assembly production line won't be automated, I'm fairly certain about that.  They don't have nearly enough money to buy automation.  This will likely be standard SMT PCBs with hand assembly to the clips.  If someone was really clever, they might be able to run the whole shebang though a reflow oven with some aluminum fixtures and a bit of a presoak.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on September 21, 2015, 05:07:22 am

Quote from: Don Hills on September 21, 2015, 01:33:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 21, 2015, 12:35:11 am

And act as a heatsink.

Not a very good one, if it's made of stainless steel.

I dont think its made of stainless steel.

Stainless steel is:
A.: Expensive
B.: Very difficult to solder
I think its some sort of tinplate or some sort of low cost spring-steel.

The coating could be some sort of powder coating.
The soldering and the melting of the coating could be done at the same time.

But I think that the clip an the PCB is only pressed together.
Perhaps only a press fit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 21, 2015, 05:16:59 am

Quote from: Barny on September 21, 2015, 05:07:22 am

I dont think its made of stainless steel.

It is:
(https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1437638097/eqdujzrg0u5jh5yq52ax.gif)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 21, 2015, 05:20:34 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 21, 2015, 05:16:59 am

Quote from: Barny on September 21, 2015, 05:07:22 am

I dont think its made of stainless steel.

It is:
(https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1437638097/eqdujzrg0u5jh5yq52ax.gif)

Actually, assuming that drawing is accurate, it looks like the stainless steel sleeve is soldered to the PCB. Of course it has to be to get the contact, unless they are doing some contact thing.
Perhaps no heatsinking on 2nd thought. Although it's maybe possible to use the positive output terminal as a small heatsink, but it would have to be isolated.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on September 21, 2015, 06:23:55 am

Quote from: Barny on September 21, 2015, 05:07:22 am

I dont think its made of stainless steel.
Stainless steel is:
A.: Expensive
B.: Very difficult to solder

This thing is so thin that is has to be made of stainless steel. The springy version of it.
Stainless steel is the only material tough enough not to bend, rip or buckle.
If you have ever drilled holes into 1mm thick 1.4301 (for the yanks 316 grade SS) you know what I mean.
For the same reason solder stencils are made of stainless steel. The material of the sleeve won't be much different from that.
A rough estimate calculation of a 0.127mm thick sleeve for an AA battery comes up to around 4 grams.
Stainless steel costs roughly $10 per kg, so we are talking about 4 cents for a AA sleeve.
Don't quote me on that, the numbers are rather crude estimates, could be 2 cents, could be 10 cent. But somewhere around that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 21, 2015, 06:32:01 am

Man, that PCB is going to be taking a lot of physical force from the battery.  Especially those three solder tabs, granted they look to be pretty large.  (relatively speaking)  I assumed that there would be steel surrounding the PCB to hold it in place, but from that diagram, it looks like the solder tabs are what's holding it on to the chassis. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 21, 2015, 06:52:33 am

Force comming from the battery? There is no spring on the negative terminal

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on September 21, 2015, 06:59:21 am

Quote from: Godzil on September 21, 2015, 06:52:33 am

Force comming from the battery? There is no spring on the negative terminal

Devils advocate here...
The spring from the battery enclosure will provide sufficient pressure that an independent negative terminal spring is not required.

I am not defending batteriser here... I truly believe it is a totally BS product that will never ship.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 21, 2015, 07:40:08 am

Quote from: Barny on September 21, 2015, 05:07:22 am

[...]
The coating could be some sort of powder coating.
[...]

I am curious if this powder coating will stick well to the sharp cut edges, the one place on the clip where it is actually important for isolation purposes and which may be razor sharp and cut though the cell's protective plastic sleeve. The very reason why the clips are being coated in the first place.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 21, 2015, 07:52:35 am

How thick is the sleeve meant to be? 0.1mm?

I have some 0.15mm stainless steel, its cut from a PCB stencil...

a piece that's 14mm wide, measures around 0.1ohm along a 50mm distance....

I'll go throw some current at it now, and see what the voltage drop is, but I don't think they can use stainless steel, its not conductive enough...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 21, 2015, 07:54:40 am

That's why some shown prototype use something like transparent heathshrink tube around the clip

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 21, 2015, 08:07:36 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 21, 2015, 07:52:35 am

How thick is the sleeve meant to be? 0.1mm?

I have some 0.15mm stainless steel, its cut from a PCB stencil...

a piece that's 14mm wide, measures around 0.1ohm along a 50mm distance....

I'll go throw some current at it now, and see what the voltage drop is, but I don't think they can use stainless steel, its not conductive enough...

I measure pretty much 100mv drop, at 1.5amp, so 0.06ohm.

However, I believe this piece of stainless steel is 50% thicker (0.15mm) compared to their sleeve...

And according to their pics, they have a section of the sleeve that is nowhere near 14mm wide, more like 5 or 6mm.

I reckon, at a 1.5amp draw, they'd be lucky to only get 200mv drop....

THEIR BUTTERISER HAS ITS OWN BUILT IN ESR!?!?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on September 21, 2015, 08:28:41 am

Quote from: jippie on September 21, 2015, 07:40:08 am

Quote from: Barny on September 21, 2015, 05:07:22 am

[...]
The coating could be some sort of powder coating.
[...]

I am curious if this powder coating will stick well to the sharp cut edges, the one place on the clip where it is actually important for isolation purposes and which may be razor sharp and cut though the cell's protective plastic sleeve. The very reason why the clips are being coated in the first place.

Take a look at the Pic of their official test and you'll see a little pice of paper:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg756800/#msg756800 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg756800/#msg756800)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: nitro2k01 on September 21, 2015, 08:40:44 am

Quote from: Barny on September 21, 2015, 08:28:41 am

Take a look at the Pic of their official test and you'll see a little pice of paper:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg756800/#msg756800 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg756800/#msg756800)

Piece of paper? I'm seeing a piece of probably double-sided adhesive tape holding the battery holder in place, (or just an old piece that was left there for whatever reason) and also that clip appears as if it has two different colors because the metal is sharply bent and the light refelcts different due to different angles. Where is the piece of paper?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 21, 2015, 08:44:26 am

Quote from: Barny on September 21, 2015, 08:28:41 am

Quote from: jippie on September 21, 2015, 07:40:08 am

Quote from: Barny on September 21, 2015, 05:07:22 am

[...]
The coating could be some sort of powder coating.
[...]

I am curious if this powder coating will stick well to the sharp cut edges, the one place on the clip where it is actually important for isolation purposes and which may be razor sharp and cut though the cell's protective plastic sleeve. The very reason why the clips are being coated in the first place.

Take a look at the Pic of their official test and you'll see a little pice of paper:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg756800/#msg756800 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg756800/#msg756800)

I think either the image is not clear enough to draw that conclusion, or I'm not looking at the right spot (which essentially makes the same point).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Don Hills on September 21, 2015, 08:45:01 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 21, 2015, 02:41:14 am

Sure, but still a couple of orders of magnitude better than free air.

How good does it have to be? 1.5 volts out, 1.5 amps, worst efficiency maybe 70% or less depending on cell voltage = over 600 mW? 50 degrees C/W, assuming it's not allowed to get hot enough to burn fingers...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on September 21, 2015, 09:09:12 am

The paper is clearly to see at the bottom right.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/?action=dlattach;attach=172161;image)

Here you can see the bottom edge without battery:
(https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1437638097/eqdujzrg0u5jh5yq52ax.gif)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 21, 2015, 11:53:25 am

Quote from: Barny on September 21, 2015, 09:09:12 am

The paper is clearly to see at the bottom right.
<SNIP>

Mehhh, I don't know, could equally well be the protective sleeve/label of the battery, maybe even looking at the "seem". Notice that there is text printed on the side, the red 'tab' could easily be part of a logo or so.

Another thought: The plastic case that the batterisers come in? Could be very well an off the shelf item, which is much cheaper than making your own.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on September 21, 2015, 12:01:13 pm

I wonder if batteriser has finally given up trying to fight us. Maybe they are trying to keep quiet now, so they can run off with the VC's investments when no ones looking! [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lampbus on September 21, 2015, 12:22:29 pm

Quote from: Chipguy on September 21, 2015, 06:23:55 am

Quote from: Barny on September 21, 2015, 05:07:22 am

I dont think its made of stainless steel.
Stainless steel is:
A.: Expensive
B.: Very difficult to solder

This thing is so thin that is has to be made of stainless steel. The springy version of it.
Stainless steel is the only material tough enough not to bend, rip or buckle.
If you have ever drilled holes into 1mm thick 1.4301 (for the yanks 316 grade SS) you know what I mean.
For the same reason solder stencils are made of stainless steel. The material of the sleeve won't be much different from that.
A rough estimate calculation of a 0.127mm thick sleeve for an AA battery comes up to around 4 grams.
Stainless steel costs roughly $10 per kg, so we are talking about 4 cents for a AA sleeve.
Don't quote me on that, the numbers are rather crude estimates, could be 2 cents, could be 10 cent. But somewhere around that.

Actually stainless steels are not that much different to mild steel in terms of 'strength' but like you say - they are a pain to machine. This is due to the low thermal conductivity and work hardening - results in blunt drills - like you I have been there, done that...

IF they use stainless steel, then it will be stamped from sheet keeping the laser for prototypes. They may use photo-chemical etching, but they will still need press tooling to form the final shape.

Sharp edges (mentioned elsewhere) can be removed by tumbling in ceramic beads (or similar) so thet powder coating will be OK around the edges.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 21, 2015, 12:33:50 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on September 21, 2015, 12:01:13 pm

I wonder if batteriser has finally given up trying to fight us. Maybe they are trying to keep quiet now, so they can run off with the VC's investments when no ones looking! [emoji23]

Ran out of ideas, more like. I don't know what else they could say.

Thinking up stuff like the "current spikes causing premature shutdown" isn't easy. I wouldn't have thought of that.

(And this sort of thinking is what convinces me this is a deliberate con, the Batteroo Bros. are under no illusion that it actually works...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 21, 2015, 12:44:15 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 21, 2015, 12:33:50 pm

Thinking up stuff like the "current spikes causing premature shutdown" isn't easy. I wouldn't have thought of that.

It's easy if you read this thread constantly!
Engineers like to throw out innocent little tidbits of info like that can be manipulated many ways if desired.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 21, 2015, 12:47:33 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on September 21, 2015, 12:01:13 pm

I wonder if batteriser has finally given up trying to fight us. Maybe they are trying to keep quiet now, so they can run off with the VC's investments when no ones looking!

They have to ship, the VC's are on the board and will demand progress. The next week or two will be telling when they should update backers on production progress. It's also telling if they don't...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 21, 2015, 02:16:14 pm

There is one thing I don't understand with that sort of start-up, apart from the distorded fact that is used as a basis for the main product.

Why such a small company with "so little money so they need VC and crowdsourcing" keep hiring so many expensive people that are here not for working on the product.

If I where to make a breakthrough device, I would hire a few highly skilled engineers and would not bother at all with marketing profiles, unless the business is somewhat secured, what is not the case here.

They are just basically burning money with that new roles and all the marketing fancy things they do.

Even without thinking about all the technical flaw they showed us, just this little things is a red alert from me. All the project I backed where project from small teams, of company a bit bigger (like Pebble) but they where all humble and all showed not to be burning money on marketing tidbit. I even pledge on two risky one which are the Tiko 3D printer and the 10$ CHIP, there is a bit of marketing for each, but also both wherent trying to hide anything, and was quite open on their product.

There is a clear and noticeable difference from thoses two startup (Next Things Co for the CHIP and Tiko for.. the Tiko) and what batteroo showed us., even before Dave's first video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 21, 2015, 03:40:01 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on September 21, 2015, 12:01:13 pm

I wonder if batteriser has finally given up trying to fight us. Maybe they are trying to keep quiet now, so they can run off with the VC's investments when no ones looking! [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think we should refrain from accusing anyone of embezzlement or similar crimes.  As near as I can tell they are spending money on prototypes, marketing, etc. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 21, 2015, 04:05:54 pm

Yet another imprecise statement from Batteroo:

(http://i.imgur.com/LTQ5fOx.png)

He is talking about lithium primary cells but then says they may work on one for lithium-ion batteries.  I hope it was a typo and he meant to say lithium-iron batteries, which are one of the chemistries used for disposable lithium primary cells but lithium-ion implies one of the rechargeable chemistries that allows ion exchange back and forth during the charge and discharge cycles.

The chemical makeup of primary cells and rechargeable secondary cells may be similar (like lithium and manganese dioxide being used in the typical CR-series button cell batteries vs. lithium manganese oxide "LMO" rechargeables in a laptop or phone) but the physical arrangement and construction is different (metallic lithium for the primary cells.)

These are not at all the same thing and certainly doesn't help instill any additional confidence in these people who love to tout how gloriously expert they are at all things battery chemistry and electrical engineering related and how little the rest of us know and understand...  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on September 21, 2015, 04:34:02 pm

The more I look at the animated/graphical mock ups, I realise Batterpoo are approaching the physical construction ass-backwards...
To minimise the overall length, they should allow the +V nub of the battery to protrude up through the top end of the Batteriser cap as the +V contact, and implement the cell-bypass within the 'flat' negative terminal end.  Why add length to the smallest, least variable part of the physical battery construction?
Where they actually put the boost circuitry is irrelevant - except for the voltage drop across the length of the sleeve as mentioned earlier.
I'm also still keen to see how it handles a string of cells.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kezat on September 21, 2015, 05:12:49 pm

I'm not sure if it was already mentioned but how long are the positive terminal tabs going to last? If the battery is installed end in like a flashlight or that keyboard it should be ok but if the battery is loaded from the side the little contacts are going to catch and bend/break. It's made worse by the slightly tighter fit because of the extra length. On a cheap product the contacts are sometimes made out of a flat spiral of wire, that will really catch the little metal fingers of the positive contacts.

Also anyone have a guess on how much current the boost converter will draw with no load, as soon a its clipped over a battery it will start draining the battery regardless if its installed in a device or even if the device is off.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on September 21, 2015, 08:35:46 pm

Quote from: SL4P on September 21, 2015, 04:34:02 pm

The more I look at the animated/graphical mock ups, I realise Batterpoo are approaching the physical construction ass-backwards...
To minimise the overall length, they should allow the +V nub of the battery to protrude up through the top end of the Batteriser cap as the +V contact, and implement the cell-bypass within the 'flat' negative terminal end.  Why add length to the smallest, least variable part of the physical battery construction?
Where they actually put the boost circuitry is irrelevant - except for the voltage drop across the length of the sleeve as mentioned earlier.
I'm also still keen to see how it handles a string of cells.

Maybe they have a component in series with the positive rail, in which case putting the electronics at the other end would still require a disconnect at the positive end?

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 21, 2015, 08:54:03 pm

Quote from: kezat on September 21, 2015, 05:12:49 pm

Also anyone have a guess on how much current the boost converter will draw with no load, as soon a its clipped over a battery it will start draining the battery regardless if its installed in a device or even if the device is off.

Keeping a tiny comparator alive to watch the output voltage would only need a microamp or so. It just has to give a pulse every now and again to top up the output capacitor when the voltage drops.

Nothing to worry about really (assuming they did it right).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on September 21, 2015, 09:43:57 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 21, 2015, 02:16:14 pm

There is one thing I don't understand with that sort of start-up, apart from the distorded fact that is used as a basis for the main product.

Why such a small company with "so little money so they need VC and crowdsourcing" keep hiring so many expensive people that are here not for working on the product.

If I where to make a breakthrough device, I would hire a few highly skilled engineers and would not bother at all with marketing profiles, unless the business is somewhat secured, what is not the case here.

They are just basically burning money with that new roles and all the marketing fancy things they do.

Even without thinking about all the technical flaw they showed us, just this little things is a red alert from me. All the project I backed where project from small teams, of company a bit bigger (like Pebble) but they where all humble and all showed not to be burning money on marketing tidbit. I even pledge on two risky one which are the Tiko 3D printer and the 10$ CHIP, there is a bit of marketing for each, but also both wherent trying to hide anything, and was quite open on their product.

There is a clear and noticeable difference from thoses two startup (Next Things Co for the CHIP and Tiko for.. the Tiko) and what batteroo showed us., even before Dave's first video.

There is a difference between building a business you intent to grow and profit from, and building a business that appears legit for the sole purpose of selling it to some big sucker.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 21, 2015, 09:55:03 pm

Only 3 days left to get your Izzer:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ErikTheNorwegian on September 21, 2015, 10:24:07 pm

The real big picture here, i think you all miss.. What Batteriser really are, is not a big scam on the product itself. That it is,  its just a tools for getting other VP's  to invest their own money, not  the crowdfounding,  into a Company. All these people got money that i recond they put into the Company in exchange for a position.  Then Ali  can get into more money from cash from these investors and partners.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 21, 2015, 10:28:57 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 21, 2015, 02:16:14 pm

There is one thing I don't understand with that sort of start-up, apart from the distorded fact that is used as a basis for the main product.
Why such a small company with "so little money so they need VC and crowdsourcing" keep hiring so many expensive people that are here not for working on the product.

Because they are building a startup business they can sell to the first taker. Impressions and big names on the board with big contacts are everything. Quite a common model for these "serial entrepreneurs".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 21, 2015, 10:30:58 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 21, 2015, 08:54:03 pm

Quote from: kezat on September 21, 2015, 05:12:49 pm

Also anyone have a guess on how much current the boost converter will draw with no load, as soon a its clipped over a battery it will start draining the battery regardless if its installed in a device or even if the device is off.

Keeping a tiny comparator alive to watch the output voltage would only need a microamp or so. It just has to give a pulse every now and again to top up the output capacitor when the voltage drops.
Nothing to worry about really (assuming they did it right).

Yes, that's easy. They have said it draws in the order of uA, and I believe them. I don't think that will be a problem.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 21, 2015, 10:36:51 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 21, 2015, 03:40:01 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on September 21, 2015, 12:01:13 pm

I wonder if batteriser has finally given up trying to fight us. Maybe they are trying to keep quiet now, so they can run off with the VC's investments when no ones looking! [emoji23]

I think we should refrain from accusing anyone of embezzlement or similar crimes.  As near as I can tell they are spending money on prototypes, marketing, etc.

Yes, that just adds fuel to the fire, and it's just not cricket.
Let's stick to the technical stuff.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on September 22, 2015, 12:21:36 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 21, 2015, 10:36:51 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 21, 2015, 03:40:01 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on September 21, 2015, 12:01:13 pm

I wonder if batteriser has finally given up trying to fight us. Maybe they are trying to keep quiet now, so they can run off with the VC's investments when no ones looking! [emoji23]

I think we should refrain from accusing anyone of embezzlement or similar crimes.  As near as I can tell they are spending money on prototypes, marketing, etc.

Yes, that just adds fuel to the fire, and it's just not cricket.
Let's stick to the technical stuff.

Alright.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Don Hills on September 22, 2015, 12:26:44 am

Quote from: McBryce on September 21, 2015, 08:35:46 pm

Maybe they have a component in series with the positive rail, in which case putting the electronics at the other end would still require a disconnect at the positive end?

From a heat dissipation angle it might make sense to put the electronics at the negative end, the (mostly) flat surface of the negative terminal would make a good heatsink.  But it would make the cell a lot longer, whereas at the positive end they appear to be using the "shoulder" space around the positive terminal for the components so as to minimise the added length. But this leads to another problem, many devices have the positive contact recessed to prevent reverse polarity insertion - if you insert the cell backwards, the wide negative terminal is prevented from touching the device contact. Batteroo appear to have considered this, though - looking at the rotating exploded diagram posted recently, the new positive terminal appears to be a spring. So the circuit board will butt up against the "anti reverse polarity" shield, and the spring will reach up to touch the device contact.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GoneTomorrow on September 22, 2015, 01:25:09 am

Quote from: drussell on September 21, 2015, 04:05:54 pm

Yet another imprecise statement from Batteroo:

(http://i.imgur.com/LTQ5fOx.png)

He is talking about lithium primary cells but then says they may work on one for lithium-ion batteries.  I hope it was a typo and he meant to say lithium-iron batteries, which are one of the chemistries used for disposable lithium primary cells but lithium-ion implies one of the rechargeable chemistries that allows ion exchange back and forth during the charge and discharge cycles.

The chemical makeup of primary cells and rechargeable secondary cells may be similar (like lithium and manganese dioxide being used in the typical CR-series button cell batteries vs. lithium manganese oxide "LMO" rechargeables in a laptop or phone) but the physical arrangement and construction is different (metallic lithium for the primary cells.)

These are not at all the same thing and certainly doesn't help instill any additional confidence in these people who love to tout how gloriously expert they are at all things battery chemistry and electrical engineering related and how little the rest of us know and understand...  :palm:

Putting anything Batteriser-like makes no sense on rechargeable (especially lithium-ion) cells. Without appropriate cut-off measures, it's going to well overdischarge rechargeable cells and pretty much ruin them instantly. But with appropriate cut-off, it's not really going to make a sod of difference (probably make it worse) since most products designed for rechargeable cells are going to cutoff around that voltage anyway.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: _Sin on September 22, 2015, 06:03:28 am

And you know, they're rechargeable, so the amount left in the battery is irrelevant.

Plus if there's a laptop that doesn't squeeze the most runtime from its battery back, you need a new laptop, not some widget that would need to be custom designed for pretty much every individual machine, assuming it could be fitted at all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 22, 2015, 10:53:09 am

@Dave & Rasz: Yeah I know that this is what they are doing, but please leave me in my dream world where people create companies/startup just in the goal of making product they are proud of, not just for money, and didn't care at all about the product.

If that sort of crap people (sorry, but I can't think anything else from such people) wasn't existing, the world would not be really better, but at least a bit better.. I all company where making product they are proud of, and not with the first goal of printing money, we would not have all of that patent trolls, scammers, etc..  :-[

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 22, 2015, 11:28:16 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PykPH1Q6Jhg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PykPH1Q6Jhg)

I don't know what he's talking about "Vietnam trolls" or why he's complaining about 1 dislike on a video... but I was more than happy to go through and dislike about 100 of his videos  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on September 22, 2015, 11:48:02 am

Your comments in that on Vietnam as a country are unsolicited for. Pfft

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on September 22, 2015, 04:13:49 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 22, 2015, 11:28:16 am

I don't know what he's talking about "Vietnam trolls" or why he's complaining about 1 dislike on a video... but I was more than happy to go through and dislike about 100 of his videos  :-DD

syyenergy7 is your stereotypical weapons grade conspiracy nutter.  Never one to let basic facts get in the way of a good rant, especially if it involves free energy, magic cancer curing boxes and American foreign policy. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on September 22, 2015, 06:10:13 pm

Oh, look.
Now he gets down votes from the naz* hater of EEVBlog.
Fascinating

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 22, 2015, 08:50:15 pm

Quote from: Barny on September 22, 2015, 06:10:13 pm

Oh, look.
Now he gets down votes from the naz* hater of EEVBlog.
Fascinating

A job well done!  :-+

I wonder what would happen if he made a video titled "Like this video if you think I'm an idiot"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: robby1995 on September 22, 2015, 11:02:06 pm

I think the dislikes he is ranting about came from me  :-DD
After his first batterizer video i disliked everything on his channel

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on September 23, 2015, 04:38:37 am

Why don't we just stop doing things like that?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rpannen on September 23, 2015, 08:11:19 am

I was thinking about how they fit the inductor in the small space. Has anyone ever tried to use an inductor made of pcb copper traces for a boost converter?

Here's a paper about multilayer pcb inductors: http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperDownload.aspx?paperID=29914 (http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperDownload.aspx?paperID=29914)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 23, 2015, 08:46:59 am

A multilayer board would increase thickness and cost substantially.
Plenty of small inductors exist which would fit in the restricted donut gap around the AA/AAA battery positive nib.
According to the drawings released by Batteriser, the inductor has a slightly bigger footprint than their QFN IC (2x2mm?).
With a 1~1.5MHz oscillator frequency and a claimed delivery of 1.5A at 1.5V, the 2.2~4.7uH inductor would have to be rated for about 3A, which seems unrealistic within the space available.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=172497;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=172477;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 23, 2015, 08:59:11 am

*sits and waits*

They must already be in production then? Or very close to it.

Anyone seen the AAA, C, and D sized versions yet?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=172479;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 23, 2015, 09:21:32 am

They are giving away free batterisers with each referral, to increase the client base. It is good to inflate the Indigogo contributions, but will hurt when shipping of the product actually happens.
Very few of the large order Indigogo options were fulfilled, pointing to a 'let's first see what these things can do' attitude from the public.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 23, 2015, 10:16:36 am

This Gizmodo article doesn't muck around!
http://gizmodo.com/dont-buy-the-bullshit-this-indiegogo-campaign-is-sellin-1732402971 (http://gizmodo.com/dont-buy-the-bullshit-this-indiegogo-campaign-is-sellin-1732402971)

If Batteroo are worried about my big audience, try Gizmodo  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 23, 2015, 10:42:47 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 23, 2015, 10:16:36 am

This Gizmodo article doesn't muck around!
http://gizmodo.com/dont-buy-the-bullshit-this-indiegogo-campaign-is-sellin-1732402971 (http://gizmodo.com/dont-buy-the-bullshit-this-indiegogo-campaign-is-sellin-1732402971)

If Batteroo are worried about my big audience, try Gizmodo  ;D

I think the average reader has established a long time ago that Batteroo are running scared. They are at the point where they HAVE to release "something" in terms of a tangible product rather than pulling out at this late stage. Whether it works as promised is hardly the point anymore (as we all know, that was busted long ago). They'd be just about in "disaster recovery" mode while probably trying to write off whatever losses they can as tax write-off's etc...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 23, 2015, 10:49:14 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 23, 2015, 10:42:47 am

They are at the point where they HAVE to release "something" in terms of a tangible product rather than pulling out at this late stage.

Pulling out was never an option. This isn't a couple of schmucks in a garage, it's a professional VC backed company with big names on the board of directors, with a ton of resources, money, and experience. They'll ride this donkey all the way into town, with bells on.
The biggest mistake they made was to try and defend their (ever changing) technical claims, they should have just kept quiet and most likely everyone would have forgotten all about it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 23, 2015, 11:05:13 am

Did Gizmodo asked for a sample?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 23, 2015, 11:12:53 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 23, 2015, 08:59:11 am

*sits and waits*

They must already be in production then? Or very close to it.

Anyone seen the AAA, C, and D sized versions yet?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=172479;image)

Surprizingly, I have more confidence in a chinese run kickstarter to be able to deliver the first just one month after the begining of the campaign (see Seeed's Re-Phone kickstarter) than batteroo abilities to deliver something in november so more than 6 month after the beginning of the campaign :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 23, 2015, 11:15:04 am

I suspect Bob won't be doing any more interviews. He's now been shot down in flames in the latest two articles in the Sydney Morning Herald and now Gizmodo.
Oops.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Joule Thief on September 23, 2015, 11:30:03 am

most recent changes to the batteriser website

http://www.changedetection.com/log/batteriser/index_log2.html (http://www.changedetection.com/log/batteriser/index_log2.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 23, 2015, 11:33:54 am

Quote from: Joule Thief on September 23, 2015, 11:30:03 am

most recent changes to the batteriser website
http://www.changedetection.com/log/batteriser/index_log2.html (http://www.changedetection.com/log/batteriser/index_log2.html)

Sounds like UL tapped them on the shoulder.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=172495;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 23, 2015, 12:07:53 pm

Quote

"The wave of bad publicity led to a few changes: Batteriser changed its website and video, to remove the claim that ‘all’ batteries have 80% capacity remaining (a mistake Roohparvar told me was because of a “miscommunication” between the engineers and the “website guys”);?

 :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 23, 2015, 12:23:14 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 23, 2015, 12:07:53 pm

Quote

"The wave of bad publicity led to a few changes: Batteriser changed its website and video, to remove the claim that ‘all’ batteries have 80% capacity remaining (a mistake Roohparvar told me was because of a “miscommunication” between the engineers and the “website guys”);?

:palm:

The website guys made the official promo video too?  :palm:
https://youtu.be/4iEshd6izgk?t=33m52s

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 23, 2015, 12:57:44 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 23, 2015, 12:23:14 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 23, 2015, 12:07:53 pm

Quote

"The wave of bad publicity led to a few changes: Batteriser changed its website and video, to remove the claim that ‘all’ batteries have 80% capacity remaining (a mistake Roohparvar told me was because of a “miscommunication” between the engineers and the “website guys”);?

:palm:

The website guys made the official promo video too?  :palm:
https://youtu.be/4iEshd6izgk?t=33m52s (https://youtu.be/4iEshd6izgk?t=33m52s)

Weirdly enough, today's Batteriser web site implies that it's all of them:

Quote

Devices only tap into 20% of a Battary's charge before it[sic] tells you the battery is "dead". Batteriser taps into the other 80%..

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=172501;image)

I wonder if the IndieGoGo backers have been told the official numbers have gone from "8x" to "80% more" (which is only 1.8x).

...or is it 5x more (ie. going from 20% to 100%)??   I guess math isn't their strong point  :-DD

Maybe it's just that Batteroo have never done the thunderingly obvious test of actually measuring things then publishing a list like this:

Example battery life increase:

Flashlights: XX% longer
Monkeys: YY% longer...

etc.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on September 23, 2015, 01:14:23 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 23, 2015, 10:16:36 am

This Gizmodo article doesn't muck around!
http://gizmodo.com/dont-buy-the-bullshit-this-indiegogo-campaign-is-sellin-1732402971 (http://gizmodo.com/dont-buy-the-bullshit-this-indiegogo-campaign-is-sellin-1732402971)

If Batteroo are worried about my big audience, try Gizmodo  ;D

Yes, that was a great article I was greeted with this morning on Gizmodo while drinking my coffee. And I loved the title  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on September 23, 2015, 01:17:06 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 23, 2015, 12:23:14 pm

The website guys made the official promo video too?  :palm:
https://youtu.be/4iEshd6izgk?t=33m52s

Next, they will be blaming it on the monkey!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 23, 2015, 01:35:15 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 23, 2015, 10:16:36 am

This Gizmodo article doesn't muck around!
http://gizmodo.com/dont-buy-the-bullshit-this-indiegogo-campaign-is-sellin-1732402971 (http://gizmodo.com/dont-buy-the-bullshit-this-indiegogo-campaign-is-sellin-1732402971)

If Batteroo are worried about my big audience, try Gizmodo  ;D

That's a well written, down-to-earth, factual article. Well done Chris Mills for not just regurgitating the promo copy but actually doing some digging!  :-+ :-+ :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 23, 2015, 01:50:44 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 23, 2015, 08:46:59 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=172477;image)

How do they even manufacture stuff like that?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on September 23, 2015, 02:17:17 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 23, 2015, 01:50:44 pm

How do they even manufacture stuff like that?

similarily to MLCC capacitors :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y25I6Y22sE0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y25I6Y22sE0)
Probably add 2/3 steps for the vias.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 23, 2015, 02:32:59 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 23, 2015, 12:57:44 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 23, 2015, 12:23:14 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 23, 2015, 12:07:53 pm

Quote

"The wave of bad publicity led to a few changes: Batteriser changed its website and video, to remove the claim that ‘all’ batteries have 80% capacity remaining (a mistake Roohparvar told me was because of a “miscommunication” between the engineers and the “website guys”);?

:palm:

The website guys made the official promo video too?  :palm:
https://youtu.be/4iEshd6izgk?t=33m52s (https://youtu.be/4iEshd6izgk?t=33m52s)

Weirdly enough, today's Batteriser web site implies that it's all of them:

Quote

Devices only tap into 20% of a Battary's charge before it[sic] tells you the battery is "dead". Batteriser taps into the other 80%..

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=172501;image)

I wonder if the IndieGoGo backers have been told the official numbers have gone from "8x" to "80% more" (which is only 1.8x).

...or is it 5x more (ie. going from 20% to 100%)??   I guess math isn't their strong point  :-DD

Maybe it's just that Batteroo have never done the thunderingly obvious test of actually measuring things then publishing a list like this:

Example battery life increase:

Flashlights: XX% longer
Monkeys: YY% longer...

etc.

It could be even worse, 80% of the used 20%!
So 36% of the complete battery charge!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 23, 2015, 02:39:22 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 23, 2015, 01:50:44 pm

How do they even manufacture stuff like that?

(http://www.global.tdk.com/techmag/inductive/vol3/images/indx1Fig02.gif)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 23, 2015, 03:06:39 pm

Quote from: f4eru on September 23, 2015, 02:17:17 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 23, 2015, 01:50:44 pm

How do they even manufacture stuff like that?

similarily to MLCC capacitors : Probably add 2/3 steps for the vias.

I guess so...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFEYuaY35Vo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFEYuaY35Vo)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on September 23, 2015, 06:01:52 pm

Let's see if this gets deleted or if they comment on it :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 23, 2015, 07:03:39 pm

The Roohparvar show reminds me of this great Aussie classic from the early 90's.
 :-DD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw7yA9ylCHA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw7yA9ylCHA)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on September 23, 2015, 07:32:30 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 23, 2015, 10:49:14 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 23, 2015, 10:42:47 am

They are at the point where they HAVE to release "something" in terms of a tangible product rather than pulling out at this late stage.

Pulling out was never an option. This isn't a couple of schmucks in a garage, it's a professional VC backed company with big names on the board of directors, with a ton of resources, money, and experience. They'll ride this donkey all the way into town, with bells on.
The biggest mistake they made was to try and defend their (ever changing) technical claims, they should have just kept quiet and most likely everyone would have forgotten all about it.

Batteries seem to be a current hot button for VC's. Here's a VC funded company with a 9 volt battery with micro and wi-fi for $36. http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1327736 (http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1327736)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 23, 2015, 08:31:48 pm

Quote from: photon on September 23, 2015, 07:32:30 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 23, 2015, 10:49:14 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 23, 2015, 10:42:47 am

They are at the point where they HAVE to release "something" in terms of a tangible product rather than pulling out at this late stage.

Pulling out was never an option. This isn't a couple of schmucks in a garage, it's a professional VC backed company with big names on the board of directors, with a ton of resources, money, and experience. They'll ride this donkey all the way into town, with bells on.
The biggest mistake they made was to try and defend their (ever changing) technical claims, they should have just kept quiet and most likely everyone would have forgotten all about it.

Batteries seem to be a current hot button for VC's. Here's a VC funded company with a 9 volt battery with micro and wi-fi for $36. http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1327736 (http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1327736)

What the?!

Why install that in the battery and not in the smoke alarm? How can a stupid 9V battery can detect that the alarm is ringing?

That even more stupid than the batteriser :/

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 23, 2015, 08:36:47 pm

Something tells me they are going to edit or pull their videos with the 800% claim...

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 23, 2015, 08:40:00 pm

I received this email from Batteriser... still misleading.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 23, 2015, 08:47:49 pm

Who exactly is Blomgren and was he actually associated ever with Eveready Batteries? And what is Imara Corp and is this the same guy?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on September 23, 2015, 09:00:12 pm

He's a "rent-an-expert", consult who is also on the bat-board, but supposedly he did actually work for Union Carbide. Here he is in action: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/battery-expert-i-would-not-fly-in-a-dreamliner/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/battery-expert-i-would-not-fly-in-a-dreamliner/)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 23, 2015, 09:50:27 pm

Quote from: edy on September 23, 2015, 08:47:49 pm

Who exactly is Blomgren and was he actually associated ever with Eveready Batteries? And what is Imara Corp and is this the same guy?

http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2009/12/09/turning-out-the-lights-imara-a-lithium-ion-battery-maker/ (http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2009/12/09/turning-out-the-lights-imara-a-lithium-ion-battery-maker/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on September 23, 2015, 11:29:25 pm

Hi Group,

Here is some of the latest comments on the Batteriser IGG Campaign:

This is their response to the comment that drew their attention to the Gizmodo article:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=172587;image)

Their comments on the Video posted by TechnologyCatalyst (Forum Member 5ky)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1662&v=bw_jFIPxePc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1662&v=bw_jFIPxePc)

Ali claims that the results are suspect, because the G3 should not last 17 hours:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=172589;image)


And to top it off, questions about the Monkey:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=172591;image)

This comment links Ali directly to the Batteriser Fan Page.

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 23, 2015, 11:49:32 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 23, 2015, 09:50:27 pm

http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2009/12/09/turning-out-the-lights-imara-a-lithium-ion-battery-maker/ (http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2009/12/09/turning-out-the-lights-imara-a-lithium-ion-battery-maker/)

That list of VC backed companies gone belly-up is impressive, and just the tip of the iceberg of course.
And of course, if you are the founder of such a company, instead of getting a bad rep, it seems to be a badge of honour and easier to get your next VC idea funded.
No wonder many people can spend their entire career going from one failed startup to the next, on someone else's dime. Good gig if you can get it I guess.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 23, 2015, 11:54:32 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on September 23, 2015, 11:29:25 pm

Ali claims that the results are suspect, because the G3 should not last 17 hours:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=172589;image)

They can prove this beyond doubt, just do a proper time-lapse video.
And anyone else can verify it too.
This is not a matter of opinion, it's one of demonstrable quantifiable provable fact.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 24, 2015, 12:02:52 am

Quote from: edy on September 23, 2015, 08:47:49 pm

Who exactly is Blomgren and was he actually associated ever with Eveready Batteries? And what is Imara Corp and is this the same guy?

Notice how everybody on their board is "former president of...whatever", ie. nobody the companies thought was worth keeping (assuming they didn't go bust).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on September 24, 2015, 12:07:58 am

Nice to see that Gizmodo article. I suspect Gizmodo have about the same target audience as batteriser is trying to fool. :D

Meanwhile I've discovered a real battery problem here at home: my wireless mouse drains my batteries to literally zero volts, and this appears to harm the NiMh batteries I use with it (one even had inverted polarity when I measured it!) I wouldn't have noticed if not for all these battery videos. I suppose I need to come up with some sort of low voltage cut-off circuit for it. :-\

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 24, 2015, 12:13:06 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 23, 2015, 11:54:32 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on September 23, 2015, 11:29:25 pm

Ali claims that the results are suspect, because the G3 should not last 17 hours:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=172589;image)

They can prove this beyond doubt, just do a proper time-lapse video.
And anyone else can verify it too.
This is not a matter of opinion, it's one of demonstrable quantifiable provable fact.

I think Ali is my favorite of the Batteroo Brothers. Very quotable.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on September 24, 2015, 12:55:37 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 23, 2015, 11:49:32 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 23, 2015, 09:50:27 pm

http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2009/12/09/turning-out-the-lights-imara-a-lithium-ion-battery-maker/ (http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2009/12/09/turning-out-the-lights-imara-a-lithium-ion-battery-maker/)

That list of VC backed companies gone belly-up is impressive, and just the tip of the iceberg of course.
And of course, if you are the founder of such a company, instead of getting a bad rep, it seems to be a badge of honour and easier to get your next VC idea funded.
No wonder many people can spend their entire career going from one failed startup to the next, on someone else's dime. Good gig if you can get it I guess.

Losing millions of dollars is going to hurt a lot of people and cost them their jobs. But some are so politically astute that they can successfully reflect blame and survive. These are the dangerous ones, but I do think they eventually get their due rep wise.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 24, 2015, 01:15:34 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 23, 2015, 11:54:32 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on September 23, 2015, 11:29:25 pm

Ali claims that the results are suspect, because the G3 should not last 17 hours:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=172589;image)

They can prove this beyond doubt, just do a proper time-lapse video.
And anyone else can verify it too.
This is not a matter of opinion, it's one of demonstrable quantifiable provable fact.

And once again, those not in the profession neither understand nor account for engineering safety factors. When I write "operates 15 hours" on a specification, I'm going to damned well make sure I have enough headroom to make it.

Of course the GPS runs 17 hours with fresh Duracells at room temperature. It's SUPPOSED TO!!!!!

 :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on September 24, 2015, 01:23:46 am

Well, from the Battero perspective and according to the other Batteriser logic it makes perfect sense to claim something runs 15 hours when in reality it was only 2... I suppose it's understandable Roohparvar finds it hard to believe any product could possibly be better than the manufacturers specs. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 24, 2015, 01:31:55 am

That response from Batteriser just makes me want to go and get one of these GPS's and repeat the test myself...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: hauptbr09 on September 24, 2015, 02:27:48 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 24, 2015, 01:31:55 am

That response from Batteriser just makes me want to go and get one of these GPS's and repeat the test myself...

Dave, please do. Nothing against +5ky, but repeatability is always key. Just let it run in the background while doing something else. Maybe an in depth teardown of the G3??

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 24, 2015, 03:24:11 am

Here's a startup that burned through $170M in six years:

http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2015/09/22/quirky-failure-among-largest-venture-backed-startup-flops/?mod=newsreel (http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2015/09/22/quirky-failure-among-largest-venture-backed-startup-flops/?mod=newsreel)

Here's a great quote:

Quote

Quirky also couldn’t keep costs under control while attempting to manufacture dozens of products at a time, said another person familiar with the situation. Many of the products were financially under water, and Quirky had to absorb the cost of discarded products that malfunctioned, as well as unsold inventory, the person said. The scale of its manufacturing operation was too small to justify those costs, the person said.

Even as the company saw the limits of its business model, its decision-makers were hopeful that the next products in its pipeline would be big winners and turn things around.

Ultimately, the company pivoted to having large manufacturing partners take on the production and retail distribution on its behalf and pay it royalties, but that shift came too late, the person said. The company needed to raise up to $50 million in capital, but when it went out to the market to investors they were reluctant, and Quirky ran out of cash, the person said.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 24, 2015, 03:43:37 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 24, 2015, 01:31:55 am

That response from Batteriser just makes me want to go and get one of these GPS's and repeat the test myself...

say the word and the G3 will be on its way to 'STRALYA

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 24, 2015, 03:47:00 am

How much extra current does the gps actually take with the back light on, vs when it's off?

You can pretty easily figure out a rough run time based on its measured power draw (with the back light full brightness), the measured cut off voltage, and compare it to the constant power run time given in the duracell data sheet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 24, 2015, 04:02:44 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 24, 2015, 03:47:00 am

How much extra current does the gps actually take with the back light on, vs when it's off?

You can pretty easily figure out a rough run time based on its measured power draw (with the back light full brightness), the measured cut off voltage, and compare it to the constant power run time given in the duracell data sheet.

140 mA with backlight on, down to about 85 mA with the backlight dimmed

It's constant power so it's 250 mW with backlight dimmed, and 420 mW with the backlight on

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CaptCrash on September 24, 2015, 04:22:55 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 24, 2015, 03:43:37 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 24, 2015, 01:31:55 am

That response from Batteriser just makes me want to go and get one of these GPS's and repeat the test myself...

say the word and the G3 will be on its way to 'STRALYA

It would be a better idea to source a separate G3 to ensure that there can be no claim, that this is an unusual unit or has been doctored in some way.

Im not saying that the one 5ky have is bad, I'm just making a point that having tests from two unrelated units (possibly with differering firmware, build batches etc) would help to pile on the evidence.

btw, excellent work 5ky on your testing and congrats Dave on the excellent videos and presentation of information.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: IanP on September 24, 2015, 05:45:39 am

Have you seen this https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/battery-squeeze-make-flat-aa-batteries-work-again#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/battery-squeeze-make-flat-aa-batteries-work-again#/story).
Some very interesting claims made in their extremely poor campaign video and story

Quote

One flat batter last 6 weeks. Insert two and will give light for 12 weeks

A light that runs 24/7 for 12 weeks on already flat batteries, can't be a very bright light.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: NoItAint on September 24, 2015, 06:18:32 am

UL blew the test
http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_ULReport_GPSDevice.pdf (http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_ULReport_GPSDevice.pdf)

Results they say
"Test without Batteriser: Test was terminated at 1 hour 43 minutes due to Garmin GPS shutting down."
"Test with Batteriser: Test was terminated at 10 hours 12 minutes due to Garmin GPS shutting down."

UL clearly says "shutting down" and nothing about displaying a "low battery" condition.

In 5ky time-lapse test the GPS clearly goes through a low battery warning well before the GPS shuts down.  This is just as others have reported for the GPS. 

UL should have reported a "low battery" condition before the "shutdown".  They didn't.  The test is suspect.

If I was on the Batteriser team I'd ask for my money back from UL. UL obviously missed the low battery warning.  Purely shoddy testmanship from UL  |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: IanP on September 24, 2015, 06:53:01 am

Maybe the constant screen tapping shook a battery or a wire loose after 1 hour 43, that would explain the early shutdown  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 24, 2015, 06:57:27 am

Or it break the screen making the device "shutdown" as it no longer display anything?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 24, 2015, 07:19:42 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 24, 2015, 04:02:44 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 24, 2015, 03:47:00 am

How much extra current does the gps actually take with the back light on, vs when it's off?

You can pretty easily figure out a rough run time based on its measured power draw (with the back light full brightness), the measured cut off voltage, and compare it to the constant power run time given in the duracell data sheet.

140 mA with backlight on, down to about 85 mA with the backlight dimmed

It's constant power so it's 250 mW with backlight dimmed, and 420 mW with the backlight on

The back light warning seem to come on, and it changed to power saving mode at about 1.225volts per cell.... based on your graph? (I didn't go back and find the exact figure you quoted)

Based on the Duracell datasheet, with a 420mW load, you would expect two cells to last about 5.5 - 6 hours before reaching this voltage, and switching modes, your graph shows about 6 - 6.5hours.

If the GPS was only drawing 250mW for its entire run time, with a cut off voltage of 1.05volts per cell (that your graph seems to suggest) you can expect a run time of over 18 hours...

So I'm not sure why butteriser see it as so far fetched to get a 17 hours run time...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on September 24, 2015, 07:36:11 am

Quote from: IanP on September 24, 2015, 05:45:39 am

Have you seen this https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/battery-squeeze-make-flat-aa-batteries-work-again#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/battery-squeeze-make-flat-aa-batteries-work-again#/story).
Some very interesting claims made in their extremely poor campaign video and story

Quote

One flat batter last 6 weeks. Insert two and will give light for 12 weeks

A light that runs 24/7 for 12 weeks on already flat batteries, can't be a very bright light.

Honestly, this has to be a piss-take on Batteriser...

The campaign video is worse than I could ever produce and I have no experience in video production.
They quote "In 2009 or 2008 we (3 recently made redundant scientists) had a light bulb moment. Since then we have tried to sell the invention"...
So he cannot remember when that light bulb moment occurred and clearly does not date his notes.
I thought every engineer or scientist of any discipline dated notes.
Do a 'whois' lookup on their domain and the domain was created in June 2015...
Any 6 year old kid can build a joule thief, it is well documented in numerous forms on the net.

Surely this is a Batteriser piss-take...

Maybe I am wrong.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 24, 2015, 08:02:38 am

Quote from: Mr.B on September 24, 2015, 07:36:11 am

Honestly, this has to be a piss-take on Batteriser...

Price in pounds? Check.

Yep, that's British humour (really!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on September 24, 2015, 08:06:19 am

Quote from: IanP on September 24, 2015, 05:45:39 am

Have you seen this https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/battery-squeeze-make-flat-aa-batteries-work-again#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/battery-squeeze-make-flat-aa-batteries-work-again#/story).
Some very interesting claims made in their extremely poor campaign video and story

Quote

One flat batter last 6 weeks. Insert two and will give light for 12 weeks

A light that runs 24/7 for 12 weeks on already flat batteries, can't be a very bright light.

Looks like Batteroo have some competition. Now why didn't I think of that!  :-+ :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on September 24, 2015, 08:10:37 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 24, 2015, 08:02:38 am

Yep, that's British humour (really!)

Sorry, I don't get your point Fungus...

Maybe it is just that I am so exhausted from such a long week.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 24, 2015, 08:27:51 am

Quote from: Mr.B on September 24, 2015, 08:10:37 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 24, 2015, 08:02:38 am

Yep, that's British humour (really!)

Sorry, I don't get your point Fungus...

Point: Somebody in Britain thought it would be funny to do that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 24, 2015, 08:29:19 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 24, 2015, 07:19:42 am

So I'm not sure why butteriser see it as so far fetched to get a 17 hours run time...

Because they're lying to people, that's why.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 24, 2015, 08:49:24 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 23, 2015, 10:49:14 am

...The biggest mistake they made was to try and defend their (ever changing) technical claims, they should have just kept quiet and most likely everyone would have forgotten all about it.

+1, the debunk would have stayed between techical people, and outside the CEO/sales/mgmt world.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 24, 2015, 09:05:47 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 24, 2015, 12:13:06 am

I think Ali is my favorite of the Batteroo Brothers. Very quotable.

He was better before his media training, when still posting under multiple pseudonyms.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 24, 2015, 09:11:27 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 24, 2015, 01:31:55 am

That response from Batteriser just makes me want to go and get one of these GPS's and repeat the test myself...

Where's the thumbs up button on this blog... Oh, here it is:  :-+ :-+ :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 24, 2015, 09:30:51 am

Quote from: 5ky on September 24, 2015, 03:43:37 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 24, 2015, 01:31:55 am

That response from Batteriser just makes me want to go and get one of these GPS's and repeat the test myself...

say the word and the G3 will be on its way to 'STRALYA

I'm sure then they would say that it was not an original device. What, Dave didn't test the GPS function? Probably was desoldered for longer battery life time :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on September 24, 2015, 09:42:21 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 24, 2015, 08:27:51 am

Quote from: Mr.B on September 24, 2015, 08:10:37 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 24, 2015, 08:02:38 am

Yep, that's British humour (really!)

Sorry, I don't get your point Fungus...

Point: Somebody in Britain thought it would be funny to do that.

Thank for clarifying.
I thought that exactly, but your comment made me second guess myself.

Medication and bed now...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on September 24, 2015, 10:07:01 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 24, 2015, 01:31:55 am

That response from Batteriser just makes me want to go and get one of these GPS's and repeat the test myself...

Funny thing really, I was in at a cash thieves shop down here last week and they had a brand new Garmin G3 Golf in the box for eighty bucks, I pulled it out and had a look and was so impressed that when I got home the first thing I did was searched for video reviews all of which by the way indicated around fifteen hours of use.

Anyway I was tenpted but walked out with an AEG 1300 watt sabre saw instead, handy for cutting sandwiches you know, I can go back or ring them to see if it's still there but this whole thing is almost over and I think that Sky did more than enough already, your call.

They are only handy if you play golf as the course layouts are down loaded into the unit and they can also tally up your shot count, I wanted to ask Sky if they save the shot count after the batteries die as that might be awkward in a serious match, anyway no good for general GPS usage just for ball whackers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Joule Thief on September 24, 2015, 10:22:14 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 24, 2015, 01:31:55 am

That response from Batteriser just makes me want to go and get one of these GPS's and repeat the test myself...

waste of time

the 15 to 17 hour difference is ~ a 15% variance, not a 600% variance their test results indicated.

The 15% could easily be the difference of battery manufacturer used in their tests versus 5KY's test. Most of the difference is likely an "under promise and over deliver" factor in Garmin's claim for battery life.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 24, 2015, 10:37:57 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 24, 2015, 10:07:01 am

Anyway I was tenpted but walked out with an AEG 1300 watt sabre saw instead, handy for cutting sandwiches you know

That's a really neat idea!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on September 24, 2015, 10:40:27 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 24, 2015, 10:07:01 am

They are only handy if you play golf as the course layouts are down loaded into the unit and they can also tally up your shot count, I wanted to ask Sky if they save the shot count after the batteries die as that might be awkward in a serious match, anyway no good for general GPS usage just for ball whackers.

If your golf game is taking more than 15 hours, it's time to consider taking up a different sport :D

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on September 24, 2015, 10:45:49 am

Quote from: Joule Thief on September 24, 2015, 10:22:14 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 24, 2015, 01:31:55 am

That response from Batteriser just makes me want to go and get one of these GPS's and repeat the test myself...

waste of time

the 15 to 17 hour difference is ~ a 15% variance, not a 600% variance their test results indicated.

The 15% could easily be the difference of battery manufacturer used in their tests versus 5KY's test. Most of the difference is likely an "under promise and over deliver" factor in Garmin's claim for battery life.

No, the problem is that Batterise claims, it works for 1:52 hours, only, so an independent test might be useful. Not because we doubt the credibility of 5KY, but it is scientific practice to reproduce tests independently to be sure there is no error.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on September 24, 2015, 11:07:34 am

If it's the same model Garmin G3 Approach Golfing GPS a quick search indicates that they are readily available from JB Hi Fi and Harvey Norman for around two hundred, I thought that they were a superseded model but obviously not.

And apparently they wont indicate where your lost ball is or help with obstacles such as kangaroos or wombats so pretty useless for my game really, 15 hours for me is one par 3, I wont be rushed by anybody.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on September 24, 2015, 11:09:23 am

Hi group,

I have an experiment under way to measure the performance of a Duracell Procell AA battery.

The test setup

a) HP3478A DMM for voltage measurement
b) HP6060A electronic load for discharge current

The test and data logging is being performed by a PC using HPIB.

To compress the data, the time and voltage are recorded when the battery voltage changes by more than 5mV, rather than recording the data at fixed time interval.

In addition every time the voltage changes by more than 50mV, the load is turned-off for 4 seconds. The battery voltage is measured twice while the load is off. This additional data point can be used to calculate ESR.

The DMM leads and load leads are connected directly to the battery, (Kelvin connection).

Starting with a fresh AA battery, I am now 40,000 seconds (11 hours) into the test and the battery voltage is 1.1V, this is with a constant load current of 150mA.


Here is some preliminary data, from a partially discharged cell, gathered while I was testing the software:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=172652;image)


I should have good data later today.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 24, 2015, 11:13:25 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 24, 2015, 11:07:34 am

If it's the same model Garmin G3 Approach Golfing GPS a quick search indicates that they are readily available from JB Hi Fi and Harvey Norman for around two hundred, I thought that they were a superseded model but obviously not.

And apparently they wont indicate where your lost ball is or help with obstacles such as kangaroos or wombats so pretty useless for my game really, 15 hours for me is one par 3, I wont be rushed by anybody.

There is one on eBay for (currently) less than £60:
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/Garmin-Approach-G3-GPS-/141779419943?hash=item2102b64327 (http://www.ebay.fr/itm/Garmin-Approach-G3-GPS-/141779419943?hash=item2102b64327)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 24, 2015, 11:15:31 am

Good stuff Jay.  How about a constant power discharge run, as I think that is the most realistic comparison to modern devices, like golf GPSs etc...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Joule Thief on September 24, 2015, 11:18:27 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on September 24, 2015, 10:45:49 am

Quote from: Joule Thief on September 24, 2015, 10:22:14 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 24, 2015, 01:31:55 am

That response from Batteriser just makes me want to go and get one of these GPS's and repeat the test myself...

waste of time

the 15 to 17 hour difference is ~ a 15% variance, not a 600% variance their test results indicated.

The 15% could easily be the difference of battery manufacturer used in their tests versus 5KY's test. Most of the difference is likely an "under promise and over deliver" factor in Garmin's claim for battery life.

No, the problem is that Batterise claims, it works for 1:52 hours, only, so an independent test might be useful. Not because we doubt the credibility of 5KY, but it is scientific practice to reproduce tests independently to be sure there is no error.

Two data points still would not be scientifically "significant".
I believe even if you redo 5KY's test to a statistically significant 20+ data points,  no Batteriser minds would be changed and no changes to claims would be seen on their web site.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 24, 2015, 11:36:14 am

Quote from: Joule Thief on September 24, 2015, 11:18:27 am

Two data points still would not be scientifically "significant".

It doesn't work like that.
When you are dealing with batteries, they only have X amount of energy.
You can goof the test and get less time than you should, but you can't get goof the test and get more than you should. The product either works or it doesn't for X amount of time.
Even one test is proof enough, two would nail it home.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 24, 2015, 11:43:00 am

The Gizmodo article has over 165,000 views:
http://gizmodo.com/dont-buy-the-bullshit-this-indiegogo-campaign-is-sellin-1732402971 (http://gizmodo.com/dont-buy-the-bullshit-this-indiegogo-campaign-is-sellin-1732402971)
It will very shortly overtake my video in popularity.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 24, 2015, 11:48:46 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 24, 2015, 11:43:00 am

The Gizmodo article has over 165,000 views:
http://gizmodo.com/dont-buy-the-bullshit-this-indiegogo-campaign-is-sellin-1732402971 (http://gizmodo.com/dont-buy-the-bullshit-this-indiegogo-campaign-is-sellin-1732402971)
It will very shortly overtake my video in popularity.

The Gizmodo article is watched by "normal" people. I guess your audience is more technical people, that would understand the baloney by them selves. If Gizmodo had this article two months ago, it would be a significant hit for their campaign.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 24, 2015, 11:56:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 24, 2015, 11:43:00 am

The Gizmodo article has over 165,000 views:
http://gizmodo.com/dont-buy-the-bullshit-this-indiegogo-campaign-is-sellin-1732402971 (http://gizmodo.com/dont-buy-the-bullshit-this-indiegogo-campaign-is-sellin-1732402971)
It will very shortly overtake my video in popularity.

Dave I wonder, as this article make a link to you video does it have change anything on the audience of your video? I had one of my project on the Hack-A-Day front page at one time, and it made really big spike on my blog and related video visits for a few days :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: hauptbr09 on September 24, 2015, 12:00:47 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 24, 2015, 11:36:14 am

Quote from: Joule Thief on September 24, 2015, 11:18:27 am

Two data points still would not be scientifically "significant".

It doesn't work like that.
When you are dealing with batteries, they only have X amount of energy.
You can goof the test and get less time than you should, but you can't get goof the test and get more than you should. The product either works or it doesn't for X amount of time.
Even one test is proof enough, two would nail it home.

Agreed. It would be ideal in an academic setting, but this is more or less EE 101. A handful of tests are sufficient

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 24, 2015, 12:26:04 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 24, 2015, 11:56:19 am

Dave I wonder, as this article make a link to you video does it have change anything on the audience of your video?

I don't have the stats for a few days, they are not instant.

Quote

I had one of my project on the Hack-A-Day front page at one time, and it made really big spike on my blog and related video visits for a few days :D

Hack-a-day used to give me video a big boost way back at the start, but now it's down in the noise, like a few hundred views.
Similar with Slashdot.
Hacker News gets a lot more views than both of those combined.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 24, 2015, 12:51:01 pm

It is excellent that a more mainstream site like Gizmodo have picked up on this.

Ideally, Gizmodo should now get hold of a G3 gps themselves and repeat the test. No data logging needed, just a tapper, a clock and a timelapse camera.

No disrespect to 5ky, but it's one thing calling a youtuber a liar, but would they dare do that to a commercial setup like Gizmodo?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on September 24, 2015, 12:59:23 pm

Quote from: Delta on September 24, 2015, 12:51:01 pm

No disrespect to 5ky, but it's one thing calling a youtuber a liar, but would they dare do that to a commercial setup like Gizmodo?

If anything I think they'd be even more inclined to say Gizmodo is "working for big battery", but then again, I don't know how these people think...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 24, 2015, 01:15:55 pm

I'm tempted to buy one myself (there's a couple of them on ebay uk), test it myself, then send it to Gizmodo...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: cezar on September 24, 2015, 02:39:59 pm

There is an analogy between UL/Bateroo testing Garmin and Volkswagen testing engines :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 24, 2015, 02:53:30 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 24, 2015, 10:37:57 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on September 24, 2015, 10:07:01 am

Anyway I was tenpted but walked out with an AEG 1300 watt sabre saw instead, handy for cutting sandwiches you know

That's a really neat idea!

Maybe you guys need to improve your bread making technique.

Use a high gluten flour and real yeast, not that 'self raising' stuff. Knead for at least 10 minutes (or five minutes in mixer).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 24, 2015, 02:56:36 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 24, 2015, 11:43:00 am

The Gizmodo article has over 165,000 views:
http://gizmodo.com/dont-buy-the-bullshit-this-indiegogo-campaign-is-sellin-1732402971 (http://gizmodo.com/dont-buy-the-bullshit-this-indiegogo-campaign-is-sellin-1732402971)
It will very shortly overtake my video in popularity.

Is that with or without Vietnamese viewers? I heard it was very popular over there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 24, 2015, 03:18:50 pm

Dave: Thanks, good to know about hacker news :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on September 24, 2015, 03:24:00 pm

Hi group,

Here are my test results from discharging a Duracell Procell AA Alkaline at 150mA.

The test setup

a) HP3478A DMM for voltage measurement
b) HP6060A electronic load for discharge current

The test and data logging is being performed by a PC using HPIB.

To compress the data, the time and voltage are recorded when the battery voltage changes by more than 5mV, rather than recording the data at fixed time interval.

In addition every time the voltage changes by more than 50mV, the load is turned-off for 4 seconds. The battery voltage is measured twice while the load is off. This additional data point can be used to calculate ESR.

The DMM leads and load leads are connected directly to the battery, (Kelvin connection).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=172671;image)

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 24, 2015, 05:14:35 pm

Quote from: cezar on September 24, 2015, 02:39:59 pm

There is an analogy between UL/Bateroo testing Garmin and Volkswagen testing engines :-)

I see an antipole.
One promises and talks a lot, has no clue and will not meet specs.
Two says nothing totally silent, knows everything, meets "specs".

:-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 24, 2015, 06:40:00 pm

Here's an email from Batteriser announcing 14 hours left to go in the campaign.... Read the last sentence in the 2nd last paragraph (I've bolded)... Very troubling!

Quote

A message from Batteriser’s CEO
 
Dear Friends,

It is with great pleasure that we embark on the final hours of the Batteriser Indiegogo campaign. We have been blessed with tremendous support by over 7,000 contributors from 114 countries, raising over $387,000 to date. Our work is not done yet. In fact, it is just the beginning. Billions of batteries will be thrown away this year that would have lasted far longer with Batteriser.

Thanks to your help, we will make Batteriser a reality. I ask as we near our Indiegogo campaign’s conclusion, that you might take just a few moments to share a word about Batteriser with your friends and family. Every bit of support helps for development of 9V and rechargeable versions of Batteriser. We are also developing military-grade Batterisers so our troops will no longer need to haul 16 lbs of batteries on an average 72 hour mission.

It is only because of forward-thinking individuals like yourself that innovative products come to life. We look forward to introducing Batteriser to the world together.

Warmest regards,
Bob Roohparvar, Ph.D.
Chief Executive Officer
Batteroo, Inc.

Ok... So they are, and I quote "also developing military-grade Batterisers so our troops will no longer need to haul 16 lbs of batteries on an average 72 hour mission."    :palm:   Way to pull at the heart-strings of the American public. Next they will be developing Batterisers for hospital medical use in Children's hospitals. Associate yourself with charitable and patriotic supporters... That always boosts sales.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on September 24, 2015, 07:46:06 pm

Hi,

A quick (in)sanity check:

16 lbs of batteries

AA battery typically weighs 0.8oz (Panasonic datasheet)

Therefore 20 batteries to the lb.

16 lbs is the equivalent of 320 AA batteries for a 72 Hour mission

I am sure that they probably use more exotic batteries, LTO etc.

And again I am sure much of the equipment has switching supplies.


Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on September 24, 2015, 08:08:32 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on September 24, 2015, 07:46:06 pm

Hi,

A quick (in)sanity check:

16 lbs of batteries

AA battery typically weighs 0.8oz (Panasonic datasheet)

Therefore 20 batteries to the lb.

16 lbs is the equivalent of 320 AA batteries for a 72 Hour mission

I am sure that they probably use more exotic batteries, LTO etc.

And again I am sure much of the equipment has switching supplies.


Jay_Diddy_B

To be fair, the expression "There's the good way, the bad way, and there's the army way" exists for a reason :P

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 24, 2015, 08:10:56 pm

Quote from: edy on September 24, 2015, 06:40:00 pm

Ok... So they are, and I quote "also developing military-grade Batterisers so our troops will no longer need to haul 16 lbs of batteries on an average 72 hour mission."

It's actually 20lbs (or was in 2011) ... but only a tiny percentage are AAs:

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2011/May/Pages/ArmyMarinesFaceUphillBattleToLightenTroops%E2%80%99BatteryLoad.aspx (http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2011/May/Pages/ArmyMarinesFaceUphillBattleToLightenTroops%E2%80%99BatteryLoad.aspx)

The night vision systems use 1 AA battery that lasts 50 hours:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/PVS-14 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/PVS-14)

It's only dark for half the day so a single AA has that one covered.

The other things that use AAs are flashlights, I'm pretty sure they'll already have boosters in them.

Quote from: edy on September 24, 2015, 06:40:00 pm

   :palm:   Way to pull at the heart-strings of the American public. Next they will be developing Batterisers for hospital medical use in Children's hospitals.

Don't worry, they've already been down that road. Apparently the same device that gets every last drop of power out of a battery also does it without fully discharging the battery - because that would be unsafe and burn people's babies!!!

You can also mix old and new batteries, no problem.

Is there no end to Batteroo's engineering talent?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=172714;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 24, 2015, 08:28:22 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 24, 2015, 08:10:56 pm

Quote from: edy on September 24, 2015, 06:40:00 pm

Ok... So they are, and I quote "also developing military-grade Batterisers so our troops will no longer need to haul 16 lbs of batteries on an average 72 hour mission."

It's actually 20lbs (or was in 2011) ... but only a tiny percentage are AAs:

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2011/May/Pages/ArmyMarinesFaceUphillBattleToLightenTroops%E2%80%99BatteryLoad.aspx (http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2011/May/Pages/ArmyMarinesFaceUphillBattleToLightenTroops%E2%80%99BatteryLoad.aspx)

From your link

Quote

The average multiband “manpack” radio, for instance, requires 216 AA batteries every two days if it’s operated continuously.

Can we buy stock in Batteriser ?  I can just see them getting a 100 million dollar contract with the US and Mr R laughing on his private island. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 24, 2015, 08:53:24 pm

Streamlight 14032 Sidewinder Military Tactical Flashlight, 2 AA batteries, lasting 75 hours of continuous use.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/412yXYaMmXL._SL500_AA130_.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 24, 2015, 08:55:39 pm

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on September 24, 2015, 08:08:32 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on September 24, 2015, 07:46:06 pm

Hi,

A quick (in)sanity check:

16 lbs of batteries

AA battery typically weighs 0.8oz (Panasonic datasheet)

Therefore 20 batteries to the lb.

16 lbs is the equivalent of 320 AA batteries for a 72 Hour mission

I am sure that they probably use more exotic batteries, LTO etc.

And again I am sure much of the equipment has switching supplies.


Jay_Diddy_B

To be fair, the expression "There's the good way, the bad way, and there's the army way" exists for a reason :P

If one adds up the batteries of an entire squad, maybe.  Otherwise, no.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 24, 2015, 09:00:05 pm

Quote from: ez24 on September 24, 2015, 08:28:22 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 24, 2015, 08:10:56 pm

Quote from: edy on September 24, 2015, 06:40:00 pm

Ok... So they are, and I quote "also developing military-grade Batterisers so our troops will no longer need to haul 16 lbs of batteries on an average 72 hour mission."

It's actually 20lbs (or was in 2011) ... but only a tiny percentage are AAs:

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2011/May/Pages/ArmyMarinesFaceUphillBattleToLightenTroops%E2%80%99BatteryLoad.aspx (http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2011/May/Pages/ArmyMarinesFaceUphillBattleToLightenTroops%E2%80%99BatteryLoad.aspx)

From your link

Quote

The average multiband “manpack” radio, for instance, requires 216 AA batteries every two days if it’s operated continuously.

Can we buy stock in Batteriser ?  I can just see them getting a 100 million dollar contract with the US and Mr R laughing on his private island.

If Batteroo wins a $100M contract and make similar claims to their present ones, they can potentially be sued via Qui Tam (False Claims Act).  The plaintiff can recover between 15 and 25% of the damages, which can be triple the amount of loss the government determines it has suffered. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on September 24, 2015, 09:08:37 pm

Quote from: edy on September 24, 2015, 06:40:00 pm

Ok... So they are, and I quote "also developing military-grade Batterisers so our troops will no longer need to haul 16 lbs of batteries on an average 72 hour mission."

If that's true they will be disappointed when they realize that the US military actually test things before they buy them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on September 24, 2015, 10:09:45 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on September 24, 2015, 08:53:24 pm

Streamlight 14032 Sidewinder Military Tactical Flashlight, 2 AA batteries, lasting 75 hours of continuous use.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/412yXYaMmXL._SL500_AA130_.jpg)

I have that one. A damn well built flashlight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on September 24, 2015, 11:15:26 pm

Quote from: apis on September 24, 2015, 09:08:37 pm

Quote from: edy on September 24, 2015, 06:40:00 pm

Ok... So they are, and I quote "also developing military-grade Batterisers so our troops will no longer need to haul 16 lbs of batteries on an average 72 hour mission."

If that's true they will be disappointed when they realize that the US military actually test things before they buy them.

sometimes...
http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/04/29/dowsing_for_bombs_maker_of_useless_bomb_detectors_convicted_of_fraud.html (http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/04/29/dowsing_for_bombs_maker_of_useless_bomb_detectors_convicted_of_fraud.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 24, 2015, 11:36:41 pm

Quote from: Smokey on September 24, 2015, 11:15:26 pm

Quote from: apis on September 24, 2015, 09:08:37 pm

Quote from: edy on September 24, 2015, 06:40:00 pm

Ok... So they are, and I quote "also developing military-grade Batterisers so our troops will no longer need to haul 16 lbs of batteries on an average 72 hour mission."

If that's true they will be disappointed when they realize that the US military actually test things before they buy them.

sometimes...
http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/04/29/dowsing_for_bombs_maker_of_useless_bomb_detectors_convicted_of_fraud.html (http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/04/29/dowsing_for_bombs_maker_of_useless_bomb_detectors_convicted_of_fraud.html)

Note:  These were purchased and used by the IRAQI military.  Not the US military to my knowledge.  It was the US military that was outraged at their use instead of dogs.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 25, 2015, 12:44:06 am

Quote from: ez24 on September 24, 2015, 08:28:22 pm

Quote

The average multiband “manpack” radio, for instance, requires 216 AA batteries every two days if it’s operated continuously.

So WTF is a "multiband manpack radio" and why is it so badly designed?

The only thing I could find is this and it doesn't use AA batteries:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/PRC-117F

Quote from: ez24 on September 24, 2015, 08:28:22 pm

I can just see them getting a 100 million dollar contract with the US and Mr R laughing on his private island.

a) I'm sure the army will test the batteriser before buying. Fortunately the test isn't difficult to do.
b) Batteriser is too flimsy for the army.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 25, 2015, 01:15:04 am

6 HOURS LEFT !!!

Get yours now

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 25, 2015, 01:27:37 am

6 hours to go, and the same people are ordering *multiple times in a row*????

What the ....?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 25, 2015, 01:33:53 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 25, 2015, 01:27:37 am

6 hours to go, and the same people are ordering *multiple times in a row*????

What the ....?

They want to re-sell them on eBay for $10 each!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 25, 2015, 01:36:59 am

Quote from: ez24 on September 25, 2015, 01:15:04 am

6 HOURS LEFT !!!
Get yours now
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)

Will they crack $400K?

Of course, now comes the pesky task of actually shipping.
And once units are in people's hand, if they think the community have been too harsh on them before, they could be in for shock if it doesn't test as well as they claim it is.
Of course, being engineers who are mostly incapable of lying about technical stuff, if it works as well as they say, they'll be applauded.
Of course, none of that really matters, all they need (and are desperately hoping/trying for I'm sure) is to get a huge order from someone like Walmart.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 25, 2015, 01:38:13 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 25, 2015, 01:36:59 am

Quote from: ez24 on September 25, 2015, 01:15:04 am

6 HOURS LEFT !!!
Get yours now
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)

Will they crack $400K?

Of course, now comes the pesky task of actually shipping.
And once units are in people's hand, if they think the community have been too harsh on them before, they could be in for shock if it doesn't test as well as they claim it is.
Of course, being engineers who are mostly incapable of lying about technical stuff, if it works as well as they say, they'll be applauded.
Of course, none of that really matters, all they need (and are desperately hoping/trying for I'm sure) is to get a huge order from someone like Walmart.

Dave how many did you buy?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GoldSrc on September 25, 2015, 02:51:02 am

Quote from: ez24 on September 25, 2015, 01:15:04 am

6 HOURS LEFT !!!

Get yours now

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)

They still have the stupid claim that using a power supply to test the battery cut off voltage is wrong in their FAQ  :palm: , how many times have that stupid claim been destroyed?
I can't wait to see the mob of angry backers who now get less battery life when using the Batteriser on new fresh batteries and less than their claimed "80% more".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on September 25, 2015, 02:59:40 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 25, 2015, 01:27:37 am

6 hours to go, and the same people are ordering *multiple times in a row*????

What the ....?

 A person called Anonymous has bought loads !!

I would want to be anonymous if I signed up.  :-DD

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 25, 2015, 03:39:59 am

Quote

 A person called Anonymous has bought loads !!

I would want to be anonymous if I signed up.  :-DD

Maybe Anonymous name starts with D

They have 3 - $1,000 buyers.  Come on guys - fess up

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 25, 2015, 05:24:41 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 25, 2015, 12:44:06 am

Quote from: ez24 on September 24, 2015, 08:28:22 pm

Quote

The average multiband “manpack” radio, for instance, requires 216 AA batteries every two days if it’s operated continuously.

So WTF is a "multiband manpack radio" and why is it so badly designed?

The only thing I could find is this and it doesn't use AA batteries:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/PRC-117F (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/PRC-117F)

Good luck fitting a Batteriser over one of these:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=172739;image)

Notice the words "sealed" and "do not disassemble" on the label.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 25, 2015, 05:34:51 am

1 hr left  !!!!!!!!

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)


I am waiting for the fireworks to start

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 25, 2015, 06:35:17 am

Quote from: edy on September 24, 2015, 06:40:00 pm

... We are also developing military-grade Batterisers so our troops will no longer need to haul 16 lbs of batteries on an average 72 hour mission.

I'm glad to see that guys who don't know about CE/UL and struggle with the difference between voltage and capacity, are now recognied suppliers for the army.
You see, everything is possible, never stop believing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 25, 2015, 06:37:31 am

It's done and dusted!
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/funders (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/funders)
$395,314
7400 backers.
And IIRC Bob said they are on track for shipping. Let's see...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 25, 2015, 06:43:38 am

Quote from: ez24 on September 25, 2015, 01:15:04 am

6 HOURS LEFT !!!

Get yours now

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)

Is there, like in solaroads, government/taxpayer money involved/wasted?
Somebody has info about that?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 25, 2015, 06:46:07 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 25, 2015, 06:37:31 am

It's done and dusted!
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/funders (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/funders)
$395,314
7400 backers.
And IIRC Bob said they are on track for shipping. Let's see...

Darn and no fireworks  :(

How about a survey on who bought one.  Once I knew how to start one but now I do not know how.  I am really curious on how many members bought one.  I will confess ... I ..... did ...... not.  sniff sniff

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 25, 2015, 06:46:43 am

Quote from: Galenbo on September 25, 2015, 06:43:38 am

Is there, like in solaroads, government/taxpayer money involved/wasted?

Nope, just gullible venture capital investors:
http://sktainnopartners.com/80-2/ (http://sktainnopartners.com/80-2/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on September 25, 2015, 08:50:48 am

well this is where things might get interesting, lets see what happens over the next few weeks!

I attached a spreadsheet with some stats in

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on September 25, 2015, 09:07:18 am

Just ordered a bunch of Wun Hung Lo DC-DC converters to perfect my testing techniques until I can get my hands on some real honest to goodness batterisers.

These things http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00VYLNNR6?keywords=dc%20dc%20converter&qid=1443171587&ref_=sr_ph&sr=1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00VYLNNR6?keywords=dc%20dc%20converter&qid=1443171587&ref_=sr_ph&sr=1) are only £1.00 each, delivered!

I can't wait   ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 25, 2015, 10:08:53 am

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on September 25, 2015, 09:07:18 am

Just ordered a bunch of Wun Hung Lo DC-DC converters to perfect my testing techniques until I can get my hands on some real honest to goodness batterisers.

These things http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00VYLNNR6?keywords=dc%20dc%20converter&qid=1443171587&ref_=sr_ph&sr=1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00VYLNNR6?keywords=dc%20dc%20converter&qid=1443171587&ref_=sr_ph&sr=1) are only £1.00 each, delivered!

I use loads of those. They work down to 1V as claimed but current output with only 1V input is worthless. You'd struggle to light a single LED.

Even with a fresh AA as input the voltage will start to droop at about 50mA load and efficiency is very poor - about 50%. Need more than 100mA from a single AA? Forget it.

Being realistic: You need 2xAA minimum to drive them, 3xAA if you're after a few hundred milliamps.


The only redeeming feature IMHO is a decently low standby current - about 60uA when there's no load. You can put them in things that go to sleep and need to last a long time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on September 25, 2015, 10:20:12 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 25, 2015, 10:08:53 am

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on September 25, 2015, 09:07:18 am

Just ordered a bunch of Wun Hung Lo DC-DC converters to perfect my testing techniques until I can get my hands on some real honest to goodness batterisers.

These things http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00VYLNNR6?keywords=dc%20dc%20converter&qid=1443171587&ref_=sr_ph&sr=1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00VYLNNR6?keywords=dc%20dc%20converter&qid=1443171587&ref_=sr_ph&sr=1) are only £1.00 each, delivered!

I use loads of those. They work down to 1V as claimed but current output with only 1V input is worthless. You'd struggle to light a single LED.

Even with a fresh AA as input the voltage will start to droop at about 50mA load and efficiency is very poor - about 50%. You want more than 100mA from a single AA? Forget it.

Being realistic: You need 2xAA minimum to drive them, 3xAA if you're after a few hundred milliamps.


The only redeeming feature IMHO is a decently low standby current - about 60uA when there's no load. You can put them in things that go to sleep and need to last a long time.

Excellent. They're as naff as I thought, I'm gonna enjoy testing them  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 25, 2015, 10:31:13 am

Apparently Kickstarter requires a working prototype to make a campaign..... Indiegogo apparently doesn't.....  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 25, 2015, 11:02:40 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 25, 2015, 10:31:13 am

Apparently Kickstarter requires a working prototype to make a campaign..... Indiegogo apparently doesn't.....  :-//

I am not so sure about that. Have a look at the following.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/shaving-with-laser/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/shaving-with-laser/)

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on September 25, 2015, 11:12:55 am

Quote from: firewalker on September 25, 2015, 11:02:40 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on September 25, 2015, 10:31:13 am

Apparently Kickstarter requires a working prototype to make a campaign..... Indiegogo apparently doesn't.....  :-//

I am not so sure about that. Have a look at the following.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/shaving-with-laser/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/shaving-with-laser/)

Alexander.

I did say apparently, and I heard it elsewhere, but that kickstarter appears to be claiming to have a working product....

Quote

Two of the aluminum prototypes with the laser turned on

Quote

Prototype with laser attached

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 25, 2015, 03:30:23 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 25, 2015, 06:37:31 am

It's done and dusted!
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/funders (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/funders)
$395,314
7400 backers.
And IIRC Bob said they are on track for shipping. Let's see...

-10% = 355,783

Then there will be the inevitable credit cards that don't process because they are expired, over the limit, etc. 

The total dollar value for the C & D models is just shy of $40K, so there's $36K to pay for all the tooling, setup charges, component costs, etc.   That is the definition of punishment.  It's all the work of the AA and AAA models and likely at a substantial loss. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on September 25, 2015, 03:35:53 pm

Minus all the $5.00 fees that are for shipping chargers that IGG counts as contributions.

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 26, 2015, 12:49:54 pm

Has anyone else noticed when you try to go to batteriser.com, the first time browser says network error or cant connect, but then you press retry button and it works. This is happening on my phone and tablet, only when I go to www.batteriser.com (http://www.batteriser.com) directly typing the url in browser bar, and always the first time... After pressing retry it goes through fine second time. And this never happened to me before or even now with any other site on the internet... Only batteriser. Any ideas?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f1rmb on September 26, 2015, 12:52:50 pm

Quote from: edy on September 26, 2015, 12:49:54 pm

Has anyone else noticed when you try to go to batteriser.com, the first time browser says network error or cant connect, but then you press retry button and it works. This is happening on my phone and tablet, only when I go to www.batteriser.com (http://www.batteriser.com) directly typing the url in browser bar, and always the first time... After pressing retry it goes through fine second time. And this never happened to me before or even now with any other site on the internet... Only batteriser. Any ideas?

They're probably hosted on a RPi, using AA and butterizer ;-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 26, 2015, 12:54:43 pm

Quote from: edy on September 26, 2015, 12:49:54 pm

Has anyone else noticed when you try to go to batteriser.com, the first time browser says network error or cant connect, but then you press retry button and it works. This is happening on my phone and tablet, only when I go to www.batteriser.com (http://www.batteriser.com) directly typing the url in browser bar, and always the first time... After pressing retry it goes through fine second time. And this never happened to me before or even now with any other site on the internet... Only batteriser. Any ideas?

Yep, I get that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 26, 2015, 12:58:38 pm

So is this some kind of fake page that captures info or redirects, or some network server  issue, or what? It is quite interesting to find out why it is happening.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2015, 01:10:22 pm

Quote from: edy on September 26, 2015, 12:58:38 pm

So is this some kind of fake page that captures info or redirects, or some network server  issue, or what? It is quite interesting to find out why it is happening.

Something like that.

Note that even if you type "http://www.batteriser.com/" in the address box you end up at "http://batteriser.com/"

So it's some sort of server thing.

Or maybe they're under attack by Big Battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on September 26, 2015, 01:19:37 pm

Quote from: edy on September 26, 2015, 12:49:54 pm

Has anyone else noticed when you try to go to batteriser.com, the first time browser says network error or cant connect, but then you press retry button and it works. This is happening on my phone and tablet, only when I go to www.batteriser.com (http://www.batteriser.com) directly typing the url in browser bar, and always the first time... After pressing retry it goes through fine second time. And this never happened to me before or even now with any other site on the internet... Only batteriser. Any ideas?

Yes, I get that. Using Firefox latest update.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 26, 2015, 01:21:25 pm

It doesn't happen for me. And tbh I don;t remember happening. Firefox on GNU/Linux though.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 26, 2015, 01:34:39 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 26, 2015, 01:10:22 pm

Or maybe they're under attack by Big Battery.

As a rumoured paid employee of Duracell, I can neither confirm nor deny there is any such attack  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on September 26, 2015, 01:44:16 pm

I've gotten that occasionally too - it looks like the server resets the connection (i.e. closes it) immediately after the request is sent, but if you try again it starts working for a while.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ErikTheNorwegian on September 26, 2015, 04:34:15 pm

Quote from: edy on September 26, 2015, 12:49:54 pm

Has anyone else noticed when you try to go to batteriser.com, the first time browser says network error or cant connect, but then you press retry button and it works. This is happening on my phone and tablet, only when I go to www.batteriser.com (http://www.batteriser.com) directly typing the url in browser bar, and always the first time... After pressing retry it goes through fine second time. And this never happened to me before or even now with any other site on the internet... Only batteriser. Any ideas?

Yepp, noticed it early this last week, on monday i think. It looks like a DNS lookup problem.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 26, 2015, 04:39:43 pm

In Google Chrome I'm getting:  ERR_CONNECTION_RESET

Then immediately after a few seconds the browser refreshes (or I have to hit a "retry" button) and it loads up "batteriser.com" (without the "www."). So yeah it must be something to do with "www." setting on their server which is supposed to redirect to the URL without it.

Apparently it is some timeout issue. Something is taking too long to respond or do something I guess. Probably just a silly glitch on whoever is hosting their website... Just a mistake or accidental setting oversight.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 26, 2015, 06:50:46 pm

Quote from: firewalker on September 26, 2015, 01:21:25 pm

It doesn't happen for me. And tbh I don;t remember happening. Firefox on GNU/Linux though.

I get a server error too, using:

Quote

Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Ubuntu; Linux x86_64; rv:40.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/40.0

I suspect a poorly tested webserver configuration and logfiles not being checked (as most admins like to forget).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 26, 2015, 07:49:40 pm

http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_Report_FCC.pdf (http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_Report_FCC.pdf)

Legal question  or when does Sept 3 start?

In their FCC report the tests were started around 2:35 pm on Sept 3  and a piece of testing gear (a cable  CNT 195) was due for calibration on Sept 3.

So was it past the calibration date?  Or do they have until midnight?
Is there a grace period for calibration (I have nothing that needs outside calibration).

Are testing labs allowed to calibrate their own equipment?

Also not good for a testing lab to number the tests as Sequences then report then out of sequence (order) in the report.  There were 4 tests with times and reported in this order 2,1,3,4 (times out of order).

If I was a regulator, I would call the lab and ask them these questions.  And I would expect the next test results not to have these mistakes.
 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MrRobSteel on September 26, 2015, 09:14:48 pm

Test labs are usually allowed to calibrate their own equipment to a certain degree, the equipment they use to calibrate with though, that's sent away to another company or someone comes in to calibrate on site.

As for being past calibration... it's never an ideal situation, but as long as you're able to prove that it was working as specified, for example, within spec next calibration, they you can probably get away with it. Just far easier for everyone involved if everything is calibrated.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 26, 2015, 09:17:38 pm

Quote from: MrRobSteel on September 26, 2015, 09:14:48 pm

Test labs are usually allowed to calibrate their own equipment to a certain degree, the equipment they use to calibrate with though, that's sent away to another company or someone comes in to calibrate on site.

As for being past calibration... it's never an ideal situation, but as long as you're able to prove that it was working as specified, for example, within spec next calibration, they you can probably get away with it. Just far easier for everyone involved if everything is calibrated.

thanks

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 26, 2015, 10:24:50 pm

Sounds like they don't have their apache2 aliases set for http://www.batteriser.com (http://www.batteriser.com) (but they do for http://batteriser.com (http://batteriser.com)) and aren't using MOD_REWRITE.  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on September 27, 2015, 07:16:29 am

Interesting how Bob and Ali write their comments every single day (even during the weekends) on IGG, count down 13-9-4 days, 24 hours. And then the once the campain is closed the IGG page turns silent for days. I would expect a happy update for a succesful IGG campaign, but ... nothing. Now that makes me feel uncomfortable, even though I didn't support the campaign. Makes me wonder if everybody left for holiday. I wonder what a $400k holiday would be like :-\

Hopefully I'm wrong.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 27, 2015, 07:28:15 am

Quote from: jippie on September 27, 2015, 07:16:29 am

Interesting how Bob and Ali write their comments every single day (even during the weekends) on IGG, count down 13-9-4 days, 24 hours. And then the once the campain is closed the IGG page turns silent for days. I would expect a happy update for a succesful IGG campaign, but ... nothing. Now that makes me feel uncomfortable, even though I didn't support the campaign. Makes me wonder if everybody left for holiday. I wonder what a $400k holiday would be like :-\

Hopefully I'm wrong.

I thought the same thing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on September 27, 2015, 08:42:00 am

Depending on the country ( and if they have an extradition treaty with the USA) it can be pretty good. There is a list of those countries where there is no treaty, but some may not exactly be nice places to live in, though they will be a good holiday wit $00k.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_extradition_treaties

Madagascar sounds good........

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 27, 2015, 08:42:05 am

Quote from: jippie on September 27, 2015, 07:16:29 am

Interesting how Bob and Ali write their comments every single day (even during the weekends) on IGG, count down 13-9-4 days, 24 hours. And then the once the campain is closed the IGG page turns silent for days. I would expect a happy update for a succesful IGG campaign, but ... nothing. Now that makes me feel uncomfortable, even though I didn't support the campaign. Makes me wonder if everybody left for holiday. I wonder what a $400k holiday would be like :-\
Hopefully I'm wrong.

They are likely going to have a big meeting with the VC's/board to see what they are going to do. They clearly cannot make money out of this campaign alone, and if they don't currently have a big order from retailer (as I'm sure they are lusting over. In fact it's stated goal of the Indiegogo campaign), they have to decide what to do next financially and production wise.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 27, 2015, 09:41:37 am

When they fail, the blame will be firmly pointed at "Those bloggers and naysayers who spread all those lies and slander about our amazing product and turned thousands of customers away, causing the startup to fail so we couldn't get any finished products out".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 27, 2015, 09:48:05 am

They didn't fail. They "must" send a product. They asked for 30k and they got 400k. More that 800% :P.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bitwelder on September 27, 2015, 10:47:01 am

Now I tried it myself, using 'curl' instead of one of those newfangled web browsers,
and the first connection to their website gets indeed dropped. How rude!

Code: [Select]

$ curl -sv batteriser.com >/tmp/batt1.log
* Rebuilt URL to: batteriser.com/
* Hostname was NOT found in DNS cache
*   Trying 198.1.123.166...
* Connected to batteriser.com (198.1.123.166) port 80 (#0)
> GET / HTTP/1.1
> User-Agent: curl/7.35.0
> Host: batteriser.com
> Accept: */*
>
* Recv failure: Connection reset by peer
* Closing connection 0

Next attempt instead goes through:

Code: [Select]

$ curl -sv batteriser.com >/tmp/batt2.txt
* Rebuilt URL to: batteriser.com/
* Hostname was NOT found in DNS cache
*   Trying 198.1.123.166...
* Connected to batteriser.com (198.1.123.166) port 80 (#0)
> GET / HTTP/1.1
> User-Agent: curl/7.35.0
> Host: batteriser.com
> Accept: */*
>
< HTTP/1.1 200 OK
< Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 10:18:14 GMT
* Server Apache is not blacklisted
< Server: Apache
< Vary: Accept-Encoding,Cookie
< Cache-Control: max-age=3, must-revalidate
< WP-Super-Cache: Served supercache file from PHP
< Transfer-Encoding: chunked
< Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
<
{ [data not shown]
* Connection #0 to host batteriser.com left intact

Also, they have set a redirect from www.batteriser.com (http://www.batteriser.com) to batteriser.com

Code: [Select]

$ curl -sv [url=http://www.batteriser.com]www.batteriser.com[/url] >/tmp/batt3.txt
* Rebuilt URL to: [url=http://www.batteriser.com/]www.batteriser.com/[/url]
* Hostname was NOT found in DNS cache
*   Trying 198.1.123.166...
* Connected to [url=http://www.batteriser.com]www.batteriser.com[/url] (198.1.123.166) port 80 (#0)
> GET / HTTP/1.1
> User-Agent: curl/7.35.0
> Host: [url=http://www.batteriser.com]www.batteriser.com[/url]
> Accept: */*
>
< HTTP/1.1 301 Moved Permanently
< Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 10:19:52 GMT
* Server Apache is not blacklisted
< Server: Apache
< Vary: Cookie,Accept-Encoding
< X-Pingback: http://batteriser.com/xmlrpc.php
< Location: http://batteriser.com/
< Content-Length: 0
< Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
<
* Connection #0 to host [url=http://www.batteriser.com]www.batteriser.com[/url] left intact

Interesting that Batteriser website is simply made with Wordpress,
and as they didn't even disable the X-Pingback there is some hope that is even DDoS-sable  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 27, 2015, 04:38:04 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 27, 2015, 08:42:05 am

Quote from: jippie on September 27, 2015, 07:16:29 am

Interesting how Bob and Ali write their comments every single day (even during the weekends) on IGG, count down 13-9-4 days, 24 hours. And then the once the campain is closed the IGG page turns silent for days. I would expect a happy update for a succesful IGG campaign, but ... nothing. Now that makes me feel uncomfortable, even though I didn't support the campaign. Makes me wonder if everybody left for holiday. I wonder what a $400k holiday would be like :-\
Hopefully I'm wrong.

They are likely going to have a big meeting with the VC's/board to see what they are going to do. They clearly cannot make money out of this campaign alone, and if they don't currently have a big order from retailer (as I'm sure they are lusting over. In fact it's stated goal of the Indiegogo campaign), they have to decide what to do next financially and production wise.

Hopefully, refunds or simply not charging the credit cards is an option that's on the table.

And I have to say that the assertions that they will simply take the money and run are totally unfounded and unfair at this point.  There is absolutely no evidence that they would do that. And that's a stupid small amount of money anyway to even regard that as a possibility.

They break in communications is very likely due to the fact that they have some money, a huge level of commitments to meet, but not nearly enough money to meet all those commitments. For all the missteps, at this point, they do deserve a little time to process the situation and respond appropriately.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 27, 2015, 06:07:07 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 27, 2015, 04:38:04 pm

Hopefully, refunds or simply not charging the credit cards is an option that's on the table.

Nope.

That would be the end of Batteriser, and they're not rich yet.

My prediction is "stall", keep announcing production problems that are 'out of their control', try to keep the ball rolling and get somebody to buy them out.

Sort of related to this topic: I was looking at 18650 batteries on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=18650+battery) yesterday. There's sellers on there that have sold thousands of them, all with good feedback. No problem, right?

...except:
a) AFAIK there's no 18650 with more than about 3400mAh capacity but they're all 6000mAh, 9800mAh...etc.
b) The internet is full of 18650 tests (http://www.ebay.com/gds/18650-Battery-Buying-Guide-test-on-all-from-eBay-below-3-/10000000178020340/g.html) that show all those batteries have dismal capacities (200-300mAh is common).
c) There's hundreds of pictures of battery teardowns where they're half full of white powder with a tiny battery inside, etc.

(http://i.imgur.com/aPGyA.jpg)

ie. The tiniest bit of research will will let you know you'd have to be insane to buy a cheap 18650  on eBay.

Question: Why are they selling so many and where does all the positive feedback come from?

And back on topic: Will all the imbeciles who buy Batterisers be able to tell if they work or not?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kilrah on September 27, 2015, 06:12:08 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 27, 2015, 06:07:07 pm

And back on topic: Will all the imbeciles who buy Batterisers be able to tell if they work or not?

Of course not, they'll just run on placebo effect and give raving reviews. Sigh  |O

Quote from: Fungus on September 27, 2015, 06:07:07 pm

Question: Why are they selling so many and where does all the positive feedback come from?

Most of the positive feedback is likely paid for fake feedback (like the negative feedback on Dave's videos about the batteriser).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 27, 2015, 06:30:41 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 27, 2015, 06:07:07 pm

...Question: Why are they selling so many and where does all the positive feedback come from?

Part of the positive feedback I regret, is when I ordered parts for spare, that looked good, or were good in a first test.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on September 27, 2015, 06:50:21 pm

Quote from: MrRobSteel on September 26, 2015, 09:14:48 pm

As for being past calibration... it's never an ideal situation, but as long as you're able to prove that it was working as specified, for example, within spec next calibration, they you can probably get away with it. Just far easier for everyone involved if everything is calibrated.

Exactly it is quite common practice if your test equipment is just out of calibration.
But you really want to avoid it because of the amount of paperwork you need to produce to get the traceability in check.
I found that when doing calibrations for pharmaceutical companies it is easier to reschedule the calibrations (if possible) so there is less trouble in the paper department...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 27, 2015, 08:05:56 pm

Quote from: meeder on September 27, 2015, 06:50:21 pm

Quote from: MrRobSteel on September 26, 2015, 09:14:48 pm

As for being past calibration... it's never an ideal situation, but as long as you're able to prove that it was working as specified, for example, within spec next calibration, they you can probably get away with it. Just far easier for everyone involved if everything is calibrated.

Exactly it is quite common practice if your test equipment is just out of calibration.

Or if your customer is Batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on September 27, 2015, 09:02:52 pm

Quote from: McCarthy on September 27, 2015, 08:58:38 pm

How do you buy feedback on eBay? You actually have to purchase the item in order to leave a feedback.

I think you just answered your own question?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 27, 2015, 09:40:53 pm

Quote from: PA0PBZ on September 27, 2015, 09:02:52 pm

Quote from: McCarthy on September 27, 2015, 08:58:38 pm

How do you buy feedback on eBay? You actually have to purchase the item in order to leave a feedback.

I think you just answered your own question?

I think eBay would spot a load of purchases with no actual payments being made.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kilrah on September 27, 2015, 09:51:39 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 27, 2015, 09:40:53 pm

I think eBay would spot a load of purchases with no actual payments being made.

Make the payments, then refund them a month later. Or just eat the payment fees as marketing budget, obviously both the sending and receiving accounts would belong to the same entity.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 27, 2015, 09:55:16 pm

Quote from: Kilrah on September 27, 2015, 09:51:39 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 27, 2015, 09:40:53 pm

I think eBay would spot a load of purchases with no actual payments being made.

Make the payments, then refund them a month later. Or just eat the payment fees as marketing budget, obviously both the sending and receiving accounts would belong to the same entity.

Thousands and thousands  of them?

eg. http://www.ebay.com/itm/121498553553 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/121498553553)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on September 27, 2015, 10:00:28 pm

you can allow bank transfer payments for that. No need to do the transfer, ebay is not in the loop.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 28, 2015, 12:07:42 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on September 27, 2015, 04:38:04 pm

Hopefully, refunds or simply not charging the credit cards is an option that's on the table.

I greatly doubt it. They need to produce something and make the campaign a success. It's a big thing that the VC's no doubt want to pitch others.

Quote

And I have to say that the assertions that they will simply take the money and run are totally unfounded and unfair at this point.  There is absolutely no evidence that they would do that. And that's a stupid small amount of money anyway to even regard that as a possibility.

Yes, all that talk is complete and utter nonsense.

Quote

They break in communications is very likely due to the fact that they have some money, a huge level of commitments to meet, but not nearly enough money to meet all those commitments. For all the missteps, at this point, they do deserve a little time to process the situation and respond appropriately.

This.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 28, 2015, 01:41:29 am

Quote from: bitwelder on September 27, 2015, 10:47:01 am

Now I tried it myself, using 'curl' instead of one of those newfangled web browsers,
and the first connection to their website gets indeed dropped. How rude!

Interesting that Batteriser website is simply made with Wordpress,
and as they didn't even disable the X-Pingback there is some hope that is even DDoS-sable  ;)

Waaaaaaaaait a minute--could this be to thwart our web-caching webapps that we've been using to keep track of changes to their website?

EDIT: shorted the quoted stuff

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 28, 2015, 08:03:29 am

Quote from: McCarthy on September 27, 2015, 11:51:34 pm

The feedback in this case is not bought or faked. You can see here:

You are too much into what that site tells about itself.
Their customers are the sellers. Don't expect independence, fair, easy, transparence, thruth,...
But if you absolutely want to: lookup what legal value that stars-hidden-feedback page has.

Quote from: McCarthy on September 27, 2015, 11:51:34 pm

...that the feedback comes from many different buyer with different sums of feedbacks. If many of them would come from the same account you would see both repeating first / last digits of the eBay name as well as identical feedback counter.

I never typed "feedback farm" in Google. Maybe narrowing down the search to results in Vietnam gives better results.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kilrah on September 28, 2015, 08:18:26 am

Quote from: McCarthy on September 27, 2015, 11:51:34 pm

The feedback in this case is not bought or faked. You can see here that the feedback comes from many different buyer with different sums of feedbacks. If many of them would come from the same account you would see both repeating first / last digits of the eBay name as well as identical feedback counter.

There are companies that specialize in selling fake feedback / likes / dislikes / comments and spam for most big online platforms like eBay, facebook, instagram, youtube, twitter etc who own thousands of different accounts just for that purpose and automate the process.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 28, 2015, 08:40:00 am

Quote from: f4eru on September 27, 2015, 10:00:28 pm

you can allow bank transfer payments for that. No need to do the transfer, ebay is not in the loop.

Could. Might. Maybe. Theoretically...yada yada.

Have you any proof of this?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: free_electron on September 28, 2015, 08:50:24 am

Quote from: firewalker on September 27, 2015, 09:48:05 am

They didn't fail. They "must" send a product. They asked for 30k and they got 400k. More that 800% :P.

Alexander.

I wonder how they will pay for that 'customised ic'...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 28, 2015, 08:54:33 am

I'll eat my hat if it's a customized IC.  :bullshit:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 28, 2015, 08:57:40 am

Quote from: free_electron on September 28, 2015, 08:50:24 am

Quote from: firewalker on September 27, 2015, 09:48:05 am

They didn't fail. They "must" send a product. They asked for 30k and they got 400k. More that 800% :P.

Alexander.

I wonder how they will pay for that 'customised ic'...

How much for sandpaper and a sharpie? :P :P :P

Alexander.

EDIT: Spelling.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 28, 2015, 09:17:49 am

Quote from: McCarthy on September 27, 2015, 11:53:44 pm

PS: some eBay buyer are learning:

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=hksells&iid=121498553553&de=off&items=25&which=negative&interval=365&_trkparms=negative_365 (http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=hksells&iid=121498553553&de=off&items=25&which=negative&interval=365&_trkparms=negative_365)

Yep. You'd think people would go as far as looking at the seller's feedback, but nooooo...

This page is classic:

http://www.ebay.com/gds/18650-Battery-Buying-Guide-/10000000177628747/g.html (http://www.ebay.com/gds/18650-Battery-Buying-Guide-/10000000177628747/g.html)

Consumers ...  find that eBay is a wonderful place to shop for the batteries.   :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 28, 2015, 10:43:31 am

This nice red stick battery look more like a stick of TNT to me than a battery :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on September 28, 2015, 11:14:58 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 28, 2015, 08:40:00 am

Quote from: f4eru on September 27, 2015, 10:00:28 pm

you can allow bank transfer payments for that. No need to do the transfer, ebay is not in the loop.

Could. Might. Maybe. Theoretically...yada yada.

Have you any proof of this?

Yep.
http://pages.ebay.de/help/pay/bankpay-faq.html (http://pages.ebay.de/help/pay/bankpay-faq.html)
http://pages.ebay.com/HELP/POLICIES/ACCEPTED-PAYMENTS-POLICY.HTML (http://pages.ebay.com/HELP/POLICIES/ACCEPTED-PAYMENTS-POLICY.HTML)

You sell an item and propose bank transfer. I do it often, it's current in germany, not so much in other countries.
The buyer receives an email with the IBAN of the seller, and just transfers the money directly to the buyer. Ebay is not involved, so you can just skip the paiement entirely if the goal is to do fake reviews between two complice accounts.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 28, 2015, 02:00:53 pm

Quote from: f4eru on September 28, 2015, 11:14:58 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 28, 2015, 08:40:00 am

Could. Might. Maybe. Theoretically...yada yada.
Have you any proof of this?

Yep.

Nope. I mean do you have proof that people are actually doing that to inflate their ratings?

Besides, even if you pay outside of eBay you still have to give them their 10%. I can't imagine sellers creating 3500 fake sales and paying 10% to eBay just to get a higher rating

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ruffy91 on September 28, 2015, 02:10:44 pm

It's 4% provision for 1-100$ and you pay 10% less provision when you are a Top Rated Seller (less than 0,4% unresolved cases). So there are edge cases where you will get cheaper when you fake ratings.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kilrah on September 28, 2015, 03:19:10 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 28, 2015, 02:00:53 pm

I can't imagine sellers creating 3500 fake sales and paying 10% to eBay just to get a higher rating

It's a business like another even if a dishonest one, "invest" a bit in fake sales and fees to get a good rating, then you can sell crap products you got for peanuts or took out of a trash can.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on September 28, 2015, 06:01:29 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 27, 2015, 06:07:07 pm

Sort of related to this topic: I was looking at 18650 batteries on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=18650+battery) yesterday. There's sellers on there that have sold thousands of them, all with good feedback. No problem, right?

...except:
a) AFAIK there's no 18650 with more than about 3400mAh capacity but they're all 6000mAh, 9800mAh...etc.
b) The internet is full of 18650 tests (http://www.ebay.com/gds/18650-Battery-Buying-Guide-test-on-all-from-eBay-below-3-/10000000178020340/g.html) that show all those batteries have dismal capacities (200-300mAh is common).
c) There's hundreds of pictures of battery teardowns where they're half full of white powder with a tiny battery inside, etc.

(http://i.imgur.com/aPGyA.jpg)

ie. The tiniest bit of research will will let you know you'd have to be insane to buy a cheap 18650  on eBay.
Question: Why are they selling so many and where does all the positive feedback come from?
And back on topic: Will all the imbeciles who buy Batterisers be able to tell if they work or not?

I had some of these as well and tried to open them. But when I put the saw to it some fluid leaked out and bubbled.
They were still shit, stating 4800 mAh but only had around 1000 mAh. Utter garbage.
That was a while back and I should have shared that info back then, thought it was not important enough.

I found one seller on ebay though who sells Panasonic cells with that got 3200mAh on theird spec.
I checked them and the results were promising with 2900mAh at 1/3C load as well as 1/3C charge.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 28, 2015, 06:18:26 pm

Quote from: Chipguy on September 28, 2015, 06:01:29 pm

I found one seller on ebay though who sells Panasonic cells with that got 3200mAh on theird spec.
I checked them and the results were promising with 2900mAh at 1/3C load as well as 1/3C charge.

Yes, there's some good ones.

"Panasonic 3200mAh" is a real battery. They cost about $7 each.

"Surefire 9000mAh", four for $6.99? Not so much.   :bullshit:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 28, 2015, 06:22:17 pm

Still nothing from Batteroo? I'm intrigued as to what happens next.   :popcorn:

Obviously they can't give anybody a Batteriser before they go for the big contract - they might actually try it to see if it works!! :scared:

But ... now the pressure is on to do something. I guess they have until November 30th to make an announcement though.


Edit: Oh, wait, apparently they're going to be selling them direct through the Batteriser web site now...  :-DD

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=173470;image)

IMHO their only chance was to get them in a place where people would buy them on impulse, eg. a Walmart checkout. This completely kills that...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AF6LJ on September 28, 2015, 06:29:51 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 28, 2015, 06:22:17 pm

Still nothing from Batteroo? I'm intrigued as to what happens next.   :popcorn:

Obviously they can't give anybody a Batteriser before they go for the big contract - they might actually try it to see if it works!! :scared:

But ... now the pressure is on to do something. I guess they have until November 30th to make an announcement though.


Edit: Oh, wait, apparently they're going to be selling them direct through the Batteriser web site now...  :-DD

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=173470;image)

Me thinks this is a stalling tactic.
 :popcorn: :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on September 28, 2015, 06:39:41 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 28, 2015, 06:18:26 pm

Quote from: Chipguy on September 28, 2015, 06:01:29 pm

I found one seller on ebay though who sells Panasonic cells with that got 3200mAh on theird spec.
I checked them and the results were promising with 2900mAh at 1/3C load as well as 1/3C charge.

Yes, there's some good ones.
"Panasonic 3200mAh" is a real battery. They cost about $7 each.
"Surefire 9000mAh", four for $6.99? Not so much.   :bullshit:

$7 sounds about right for the Panasonics
And everything that has "fire" in the name and states more than that: Hands off!!!  :--

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on September 28, 2015, 06:50:12 pm

I'm surprised they are not already converting over to "InDemand" status to collect more money.

Have a look at another campaign for the "Airing" on IndieGogo:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/airing-the-first-hoseless-maskless-micro-cpap#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/airing-the-first-hoseless-maskless-micro-cpap#/story)

They originally captured $896,000 (which is 896% funded over their original flexible funding goal of $100,000). Over the past few months they've continued to climb up to $1,053,945 by using this "InDemand" feature of IndieGogo to effectively continue and scam people for more money on this impossible device (see this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/the-airing/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/the-airing/)).

So why is Batteriser not using "InDemand" funding? This should be the first thing they do.... especially since this is the SECOND ROUND of IndieGogo for them after their first campaign wasn't enough money. Unless they plan on a THIRD ROUND?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on September 28, 2015, 07:19:56 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 28, 2015, 06:22:17 pm

IMHO their only chance was to get them in a place where people would buy them on impulse, eg. a Walmart checkout. This completely kills that...

Yeah, I agree, people would then buy on impulse just to see if it works. They would eventually just end up in the trash but people wouldn't mention it because they were cheap and no-one likes admit they were fooled. A dedicated website like this will require buyers who are looking for them, who heard from a friend how great they were, and that's not likely to happen in this case.:-DD

Anyway, will be fun to see the final verdict when(/if) Dave gets his paws on one. :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 28, 2015, 07:51:56 pm

Quote from: apis on September 28, 2015, 07:19:56 pm

Anyway, will be fun to see the final verdict when(/if) Dave gets his paws on one. :popcorn:

Is anybody expecting any surprises?

(Apart from Dave actually getting his paws on one...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 28, 2015, 10:45:57 pm

Quote from: edy on September 28, 2015, 06:50:12 pm

I'm surprised they are not already converting over to "InDemand" status to collect more money.


So why is Batteriser not using "InDemand" funding? This should be the first thing they do.... especially since this is the SECOND ROUND of IndieGogo for them after their first campaign wasn't enough money. Unless they plan on a THIRD ROUND?

As has been mentioned, the IGG money is a piss in the ocean, they alread had Venture Capital funding.  The IGG campaign is simply to drum up publicity such that they find a big retail contract. (or just sell the company)

Trying to crowdfund 30k when you've already got millions from the VCs?  Yeah, that's a legit campaign...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 28, 2015, 11:32:11 pm

Quote from: apis on September 28, 2015, 07:19:56 pm

Anyway, will be fun to see the final verdict when(/if) Dave gets his paws on one. :popcorn:

So, whatever happened to those "Press Kit" units?
Weren't they like one week away from shipping those after some "exclusive" with some website?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Stonent on September 28, 2015, 11:37:09 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 28, 2015, 11:32:11 pm

Quote from: apis on September 28, 2015, 07:19:56 pm

Anyway, will be fun to see the final verdict when(/if) Dave gets his paws on one. :popcorn:

So, whatever happened to those "Press Kit" units?
Weren't they like one week away from shipping those after some "exclusive" with some website?

DealExtreme, TaoBao, or AliBaba surely!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AF6LJ on September 28, 2015, 11:42:13 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 28, 2015, 11:32:11 pm

Quote from: apis on September 28, 2015, 07:19:56 pm

Anyway, will be fun to see the final verdict when(/if) Dave gets his paws on one. :popcorn:

So, whatever happened to those "Press Kit" units?
Weren't they like one week away from shipping those after some "exclusive" with some website?

That was until someone (Dave and others here) was on to their game.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on September 29, 2015, 08:18:27 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 28, 2015, 06:22:17 pm

...
IMHO their only chance was to get them in a place where people would buy them on impulse, eg. a Walmart checkout. This completely kills that...

The difficult aspect in 'building' that webshop is controlling the kind of 'related videos' automatically appears on the sides as publicity...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 29, 2015, 10:03:09 am

Quote from: Stonent on September 28, 2015, 11:37:09 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 28, 2015, 11:32:11 pm

Quote from: apis on September 28, 2015, 07:19:56 pm

Anyway, will be fun to see the final verdict when(/if) Dave gets his paws on one. :popcorn:

So, whatever happened to those "Press Kit" units?
Weren't they like one week away from shipping those after some "exclusive" with some website?

DealExtreme, TaoBao, or AliBaba surely!

I will not talk about TaoBao and AliBaba that I don't know, but DX sell much more qualitative product than this stuff :o

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 29, 2015, 10:14:02 am

Quote from: edy on September 28, 2015, 06:50:12 pm

I'm surprised they are not already converting over to "InDemand" status to collect more money.

Have a look at another campaign for the "Airing" on IndieGogo:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/airing-the-first-hoseless-maskless-micro-cpap#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/airing-the-first-hoseless-maskless-micro-cpap#/story)

They originally captured $896,000 (which is 896% funded over their original flexible funding goal of $100,000). Over the past few months they've continued to climb up to $1,053,945 by using this "InDemand" feature of IndieGogo to effectively continue and scam people for more money on this impossible device (see this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/the-airing/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/the-airing/)).

So why is Batteriser not using "InDemand" funding? This should be the first thing they do.... especially since this is the SECOND ROUND of IndieGogo for them after their first campaign wasn't enough money. Unless they plan on a THIRD ROUND?

Something I don't understand with this Airing product (sorry to hijack this topic about this unrelated thing) but, apart maybe to prevent snoring (even if I'm nearly sure it does nothing) how can this stuff could replace a normal mask with a tube that bring pure oxygen!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 29, 2015, 11:24:08 am

Please discuss that on the The Airing thread in the crowd funding section.

Spoiler: posters on there have already pulled it to pieces!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on September 30, 2015, 04:47:37 am

So, Batteroo now has the e-commerce site up for *pre-orders* through a pre-order site called Celery.  When doubling down isn't enough, I guess you triple down. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 30, 2015, 05:11:23 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 28, 2015, 11:32:11 pm

Quote from: apis on September 28, 2015, 07:19:56 pm

Anyway, will be fun to see the final verdict when(/if) Dave gets his paws on one. :popcorn:

So, whatever happened to those "Press Kit" units?
Weren't they like one week away from shipping those after some "exclusive" with some website?

There's a "press kit" button at the top of their web site.

Apparently you have to email "dan@jprcom.com"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on September 30, 2015, 06:07:02 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 30, 2015, 05:11:23 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 28, 2015, 11:32:11 pm

Quote from: apis on September 28, 2015, 07:19:56 pm

Anyway, will be fun to see the final verdict when(/if) Dave gets his paws on one. :popcorn:

So, whatever happened to those "Press Kit" units?
Weren't they like one week away from shipping those after some "exclusive" with some website?

There's a "press kit" button at the top of their web site.

Apparently you have to email "dan@jprcom.com"

I bet they make you sign one helluva release form.

But let's not kid ourselves: they haven't released press kits for good reason.  Press kits are a big deal for getting hype going, but when your product doesn't do as it claims.........

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daqq on September 30, 2015, 06:28:15 am

Quote

When they fail, the blame will be firmly pointed at "Those bloggers and naysayers who spread all those lies and slander about our amazing product and turned thousands of customers away, causing the startup to fail so we couldn't get any finished products out".

Oh I'm quite sure that they'll ship something - a step up DC DC converter is well within the realm of possible. Whether it will have the desired effect is another matter entirely.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 30, 2015, 06:45:28 am

Quote

When they fail, the blame will be firmly pointed at "Those bloggers and naysayers who spread all those lies and slander about our amazing product and turned thousands of customers away, causing the startup to fail so we couldn't get any finished products out".

It would be VERY easy to shut the naysayers up. It would be VERY easy to prove to the press that it works.

(Assuming you have a working product. If you don't, well... not so easy  :-// )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AF6LJ on September 30, 2015, 02:41:22 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 30, 2015, 06:45:28 am

Quote

When they fail, the blame will be firmly pointed at "Those bloggers and naysayers who spread all those lies and slander about our amazing product and turned thousands of customers away, causing the startup to fail so we couldn't get any finished products out".

It would be VERY easy to shut the naysayers up. It would be VERY easy to prove to the press that it works.

(Assuming you have a working product. If you don't, well... not so easy  :-// )

As if saying it will work changes the laws of physics. ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ErikTheNorwegian on September 30, 2015, 02:55:24 pm

I was thinking about their product the other day. I got a lot of remote-controllers that are used from daily bases to sometimes once a month. Every so often, some of them don’t work, and I have to open the battery lid, and role the batteries round a couple of times with my finger. And then they work fine.  I guess that its oxidation on the battery poles/contacts that make a bad connection, high resistance. This happens with calculators and other stuff to. Even with good brand batteries.
In these kind of circumstances the user that clip on a “Batteriser”  will be fooled to think that it works… A trick for the Batteriser is also to coat the poles with somthing, so they oxidate, and then clip on the Batterizer that will cut tru the oxidation and "Bobs your unckle"!
.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 30, 2015, 04:14:59 pm

Quote from: 5ky on September 30, 2015, 06:07:02 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 30, 2015, 05:11:23 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 28, 2015, 11:32:11 pm

So, whatever happened to those "Press Kit" units?

There's a "press kit" button at the top of their web site.

I bet they make you sign one helluva release form.

Right now I bet you won't get much more than a PDF of their web site via email.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on October 01, 2015, 08:59:31 pm

Oh, about those professional looking fan commercials, they didn't cost that much, so I guess they are not rolling in big bucks.

Twins:
https://www.fiverr.com/theadtwins/create-a-promotional-video-featuring-twins (https://www.fiverr.com/theadtwins/create-a-promotional-video-featuring-twins)

Magician:
https://www.fiverr.com/angelinoperafan/do-magic-with-your-logo-or-text (https://www.fiverr.com/angelinoperafan/do-magic-with-your-logo-or-text)

Australian Nature Guy:
https://www.fiverr.com/coreworkouts/enthusiastically-talk-about-your-product-like-an-australian-nature-enthusiast-watch-video (https://www.fiverr.com/coreworkouts/enthusiastically-talk-about-your-product-like-an-australian-nature-enthusiast-watch-video)

It's a pretty cool site that fiverr thing :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on October 01, 2015, 09:09:54 pm

Quote from: miguelvp on October 01, 2015, 08:59:31 pm

Oh, about those professional looking fan commercials, they didn't cost that much, so I guess they are not rolling in big bucks.

Twins:
https://www.fiverr.com/theadtwins/create-a-promotional-video-featuring-twins (https://www.fiverr.com/theadtwins/create-a-promotional-video-featuring-twins)

Magician:
https://www.fiverr.com/angelinoperafan/do-magic-with-your-logo-or-text (https://www.fiverr.com/angelinoperafan/do-magic-with-your-logo-or-text)

Australian Nature Guy:
https://www.fiverr.com/coreworkouts/enthusiastically-talk-about-your-product-like-an-australian-nature-enthusiast-watch-video (https://www.fiverr.com/coreworkouts/enthusiastically-talk-about-your-product-like-an-australian-nature-enthusiast-watch-video)

It's a pretty cool site that fiverr thing :)

Oh wow, they splashed out on the $15 trifecta of lame!  :palm: :palm: :palm:

I wonder how much the professor cost for his comments endorsing the product. I mean the twins, the "Ozzy guy", and the "magician" had obviously never set eyes on a batteriser yet they endorsed it...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on October 01, 2015, 09:17:12 pm

I bet it did cost more than $15 because extra time and other things, but probably way less than $50 per video if it was even that much. Even at $200 per video it's not like a lot of mula.

What is strange is that for a fiverr you can get someone to design you a circuit :)

https://www.fiverr.com/keyuracharya/design-schematic-and-layout-for-pcb (https://www.fiverr.com/keyuracharya/design-schematic-and-layout-for-pcb)

there are others too.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on October 01, 2015, 09:20:21 pm

Quote from: samgab on October 01, 2015, 09:09:54 pm

I wonder how much the professor cost for his comments endorsing the product. I mean the twins, the "Ozzy guy", and the "magician" had obviously never set eyes on a batteriser yet they endorsed it...

Being paid to be an actor in a commercial is completely different from actually endorsing a product...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on October 01, 2015, 09:46:34 pm

Now I wonder if the person who ordered the promotional videos charged them way more of what he paid?

Probably so, after all transitions and overlays are expensive to create :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on October 01, 2015, 09:52:53 pm

But that means their whole advertising campaign was based on lies?

Those videos state:

Quote

A fan submitted this to our official Batteriser Fan Page and we loved it! They wanted Batteriser to know they have full permission to use this video for commercials or online ads!

I only count 42ish words for the "Nature Man" video.... 5 dolla!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on October 01, 2015, 11:38:53 pm

fiverr also has people that will watch videos and add likes to social media, one wonders if you can also get thumbsdowns as well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 02, 2015, 12:01:34 am

Quote from: miguelvp on October 01, 2015, 08:59:31 pm

Oh, about those professional looking fan commercials, they didn't cost that much, so I guess they are not rolling in big bucks.
Twins:
https://www.fiverr.com/theadtwins/create-a-promotional-video-featuring-twins (https://www.fiverr.com/theadtwins/create-a-promotional-video-featuring-twins)
Magician:
https://www.fiverr.com/angelinoperafan/do-magic-with-your-logo-or-text (https://www.fiverr.com/angelinoperafan/do-magic-with-your-logo-or-text)
Australian Nature Guy:
https://www.fiverr.com/coreworkouts/enthusiastically-talk-about-your-product-like-an-australian-nature-enthusiast-watch-video (https://www.fiverr.com/coreworkouts/enthusiastically-talk-about-your-product-like-an-australian-nature-enthusiast-watch-video)
It's a pretty cool site that fiverr thing :)

Nice find!
Everyone who's making a Batteriser video should hire them to be in it  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 02, 2015, 12:02:27 am

Quote from: samgab on October 01, 2015, 09:09:54 pm

I mean the twins, the "Ozzy guy", and the "magician" had obviously never set eyes on a batteriser yet they endorsed it...

And yet the "fan page" guy swears black and blue they were genuine fans  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 02, 2015, 12:12:42 am

Quote from: drussell on October 01, 2015, 09:20:21 pm

Quote from: samgab on October 01, 2015, 09:09:54 pm

I wonder how much the professor cost for his comments endorsing the product. I mean the twins, the "Ozzy guy", and the "magician" had obviously never set eyes on a batteriser yet they endorsed it...

Being paid to be an actor in a commercial is completely different from actually endorsing a product...

Of course. The problem is how Batteriser have made out they are genuine fans who submitted a video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on October 02, 2015, 12:24:22 am

So, hypothetically, one can also hire them to testify,  on video for $5 each, about how much Betteriser devices suck.

It will be interesting to see both pro and con videos played at the same time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on October 02, 2015, 12:34:31 am

Quote from: onlooker on October 02, 2015, 12:24:22 am

So, hypothetically, one can also hire them to testify,  on video for $5 each, about how much Betteriser devices suck.

It will be interesting to see both pro and con videos played at the same time.

I would think most of those actors won't touch a negative campaign, just in case. Also I don't think anyone would need them, because of the gimmicky aspect, it would play against your message anyways.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on October 02, 2015, 01:09:29 am

Quote from: miguelvp on October 01, 2015, 09:46:34 pm

Now I wonder if the person who ordered the promotional videos charged them way more of what he paid?

Probably so, after all transitions and overlays are expensive to create :)

That someone can create in premiere and aftereffects in like what 10 minutes?  :bullshit:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on October 02, 2015, 01:14:29 am

Quote from: ccs46 on October 02, 2015, 01:09:29 am

Quote from: miguelvp on October 01, 2015, 09:46:34 pm

Now I wonder if the person who ordered the promotional videos charged them way more of what he paid?

Probably so, after all transitions and overlays are expensive to create :)

That someone can create in premiere and aftereffects in like what 10 minutes?  :bullshit:

I know, it was a tongue in cheek comment. I guess sarcasm doesn't translate well in the interwebs.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on October 02, 2015, 01:44:48 am

Quote

I would think most of those actors won't touch a negative campaign, just in case.

Then, (imagine to) hire them to praise Dave's Debunk video or EEVblog in general. :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on October 02, 2015, 02:00:12 am

Quote from: onlooker on October 02, 2015, 01:44:48 am

Quote

I would think most of those actors won't touch a negative campaign, just in case.

Then, (imagine to) hire them to praise Dave's Debunk video or EEVblog in general. :-DD

I'd pitch in for that  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on October 02, 2015, 02:31:47 am

Quote from: miguelvp on October 02, 2015, 01:14:29 am

Quote from: ccs46 on October 02, 2015, 01:09:29 am

Quote from: miguelvp on October 01, 2015, 09:46:34 pm

Now I wonder if the person who ordered the promotional videos charged them way more of what he paid?

Probably so, after all transitions and overlays are expensive to create :)

That someone can create in premiere and aftereffects in like what 10 minutes?  :bullshit:

I know, it was a tongue in cheek comment. I guess sarcasm doesn't translate well in the interwebs.

The amount of time batteriser has taken on this, they could have done all the work themselves

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on October 02, 2015, 02:57:45 am

Quote from: miguelvp on October 02, 2015, 12:34:31 am

Quote from: onlooker on October 02, 2015, 12:24:22 am

So, hypothetically, one can also hire them to testify,  on video for $5 each, about how much Betteriser devices suck.

It will be interesting to see both pro and con videos played at the same time.

I would think most of those actors won't touch a negative campaign, just in case. Also I don't think anyone would need them, because of the gimmicky aspect, it would play against your message anyways.

How about hiring them to promote EEVblog, or more specifically, the debunking of Batteriser? It wouldn't really be a "negative campaign" but more like "find the truth about battery-extension scammers"...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on October 02, 2015, 03:16:53 am

Oh Dear...
I keep seeing Batteriser promotions and claims on the web - especially the 'reports' and 'certifications', but what is glaringly apparent is that none of them are relevant to the claimed capability of the Batteriser to deliver the extension of battery life.

• FCC - Not causing interference? - hmm ok.
• UL  - Not causing an insurable liability? - hmmm ok (with some reservation).
• BR  - Extending battery life through clever use of technology or physics? - no proof yet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 02, 2015, 04:55:23 am

It's now more than a week since the campaign finished, and not even so much a thankyou, let alone an update on how it's tracking. Very poor form.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on October 02, 2015, 05:09:21 am

How many deceptions are allowed, before a fundraising campaign is labeled a scam?
If it quacks like a duck...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on October 02, 2015, 05:35:20 am

It really appears to me that there was/is every intention to deliver a physical product. Batteriser even has the cases illustrated on their new web store. I can't tell if they are real or simply excellent renderings at this point. But the fact is that even if it is a rendering, it took considerable time, effort, and expense. If the cases are indeed production models, they are far ahead of where I thought they would be and I congratulate them.

Batteroo did a smart thing in making the AA/AAA and C/D cases common, which really saved them on tooling and press setup charges. One can even see an evolution in how the sheet metal was designed with what are ostensibly the latest production version.

A pure scam would not go through those exercises.  While the "fan" videos were so bizarre and amateurish, I couldn't believe they even listed them, I have to give them credit for the more professionally done videos. Product functionality, claims, testing, etc. aside, I honestly would be thrilled to have a market introduction executed as well as Batteroo's.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on October 02, 2015, 05:48:08 am

Quote from: SL4P on October 02, 2015, 03:16:53 am

UL  - Not causing an insurable liability? - hmmm ok (with some reservation).

The (bogus) test performed by UL had absolutely nothing to do with safety and Batterisers are NOT UL approved or certified in any way.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on October 02, 2015, 05:57:59 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 02, 2015, 12:01:34 am

Nice find!
Everyone who's making a Batteriser video should hire them to be in it  ;D

Great find, indeed...

It would be quite a laugh to have the twins in a parody video or covert debunking video or somesuch, just like the "fan" page had a submitted video, some "fans" of other things could most certainly hire the twins or one of the others to star in their video.  :)

Hmmm...  Perhaps something about a couple of twins with performing arts degrees creating some type of incredible breakthrough product?  Or maybe that nature guy playing some sort of entreprenurial genius professor?  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 02, 2015, 06:02:00 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on October 02, 2015, 05:35:20 am

It really appears to me that there was/is every intention to deliver a physical product.

Yes, all the talk about a scam etc is just crazy, there is a huge VC company behind this, and big otherwise reputable names on the boards of directors.
The VC and board members might have been seduced by the extravagant claims of the founders about this product, but nothing unusual there, that happens every day in the startup world.
You can bet your arse they are trying deliver something. How well it going to work though, well that's up the laws of physics and practical engineering.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 02, 2015, 06:04:36 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on October 02, 2015, 05:35:20 am

Batteriser even has the cases illustrated on their new web store. I can't tell if they are real or simply excellent renderings at this point.

The Batterisers looks like renderings at first glance, the lighting, surfaces etc seem just too perfect. But of course practical prototypes do exist of course but probably don't take really nice photos.
The case looks realistic enough?
Either way, very slick production. Big money has indeed gone into this.
(https://www.filepicker.io/api/file/lLddcLQdTFe1lzxlP7xB)

(https://www.filepicker.io/api/file/xQ35zjoxTBG7iTgufJq0)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on October 02, 2015, 06:09:40 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 02, 2015, 06:02:00 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on October 02, 2015, 05:35:20 am

It really appears to me that there was/is every intention to deliver a physical product.

Yes, all the talk about a scam etc is just crazy,

Agreed. We have a right to speak our piece about the technical claims, but we must always be fair.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on October 02, 2015, 06:12:26 am

One shouldn't discount a scam just because a physical product exists, no matter how shiny it is.
If the product doesn't perform as advertised (we know it can't), I don't know what else to call it.
Constant deception and obfuscation have been the mainstay of the new product presentation.
A successful scam needs an elaborate deceptive publicity campaign. In that regard, Batteriser scores quite high.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on October 02, 2015, 07:13:11 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on October 02, 2015, 06:12:26 am

One shouldn't discount a scam just because a physical product exists, no matter how shiny it is.
If the product doesn't perform as advertised (we know it can't), I don't know what else to call it.
Constant deception and obfuscation have been the mainstay of the new product presentation.
A successful scam needs an elaborate deceptive publicity campaign. In that regard, Batteriser scores quite high.

Exactly; what he said. It depends how you define "scam". I don't define scam as just if they weren't intending to deliver a product at all; I include in "scam" if they were actively promoting a product they fully intend to deliver which doesn't do what they claim it will, and where they keep claiming that it will do what it won't do knowingly after they have seen that it doesn't do what they claim. And then trying to do clever marketing to make it seem like the product does what they claim in order to deceive people. And claiming that people are fans of a product endorsing it when those people are paid actors. THAT's what I include in the broad term "scam".
"a confidence game or other fraudulent scheme, especially for making a quick profit; swindle."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on October 02, 2015, 07:27:47 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 02, 2015, 12:01:34 am

Quote from: miguelvp on October 01, 2015, 08:59:31 pm

Oh, about those professional looking fan commercials, they didn't cost that much, so I guess they are not rolling in big bucks.
Twins:
https://www.fiverr.com/theadtwins/create-a-promotional-video-featuring-twins (https://www.fiverr.com/theadtwins/create-a-promotional-video-featuring-twins)
Magician:
https://www.fiverr.com/angelinoperafan/do-magic-with-your-logo-or-text (https://www.fiverr.com/angelinoperafan/do-magic-with-your-logo-or-text)
Australian Nature Guy:
https://www.fiverr.com/coreworkouts/enthusiastically-talk-about-your-product-like-an-australian-nature-enthusiast-watch-video (https://www.fiverr.com/coreworkouts/enthusiastically-talk-about-your-product-like-an-australian-nature-enthusiast-watch-video)
It's a pretty cool site that fiverr thing :)

Nice find!
Everyone who's making a Batteriser video should hire them to be in it  ;D

I'm betting that "Magician" bloke is really our Batteriser Fan guy AKA Davey Jonez, AKA Daisy whatever...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on October 02, 2015, 07:29:51 am

They're artists you can hire. The person who put the great comments on the G+ page was also a service that could be bought on fiverr (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg717133/#msg717133).

Then this comment :)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=174011;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on October 02, 2015, 08:10:03 am

Quote from: miguelvp on October 01, 2015, 08:59:31 pm

Oh, about those professional looking fan commercials, they didn't cost that much, so I guess they are not rolling in big bucks.

Twins:
https://www.fiverr.com/theadtwins/create-a-promotional-video-featuring-twins (https://www.fiverr.com/theadtwins/create-a-promotional-video-featuring-twins)

Magician:
https://www.fiverr.com/angelinoperafan/do-magic-with-your-logo-or-text (https://www.fiverr.com/angelinoperafan/do-magic-with-your-logo-or-text)

Australian Nature Guy:
https://www.fiverr.com/coreworkouts/enthusiastically-talk-about-your-product-like-an-australian-nature-enthusiast-watch-video (https://www.fiverr.com/coreworkouts/enthusiastically-talk-about-your-product-like-an-australian-nature-enthusiast-watch-video)

It's a pretty cool site that fiverr thing :)

now that you mentioned fiverr:

http://fusion.net/story/191773/i-created-a-fake-business-and-fooled-thousands-of-people-into-thinking-it-was-real/ (http://fusion.net/story/191773/i-created-a-fake-business-and-fooled-thousands-of-people-into-thinking-it-was-real/)

I bet those Vietnamese downvotes came from there as well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on October 02, 2015, 12:29:41 pm

How about the twins in golf gear, saying how they are such big fans of the Garmin G3 and its 18 hour battery life...? 😀

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on October 02, 2015, 12:36:14 pm

Can anyone point out their lies for the fun videos in the campaign comments?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on October 02, 2015, 12:48:06 pm

I don't know if it was mentioned before here, but I searched "advertise twins" and I was lucky and the first Google result is this:
https://www.fiverr.com/theadtwins/create-a-promotional-video-featuring-twins (https://www.fiverr.com/theadtwins/create-a-promotional-video-featuring-twins)
Riiiight, a fan video :-DD
EDIT: was mentioned before some pages before, still interesting that it is the first Google search result.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on October 02, 2015, 12:58:33 pm

According to http://www.consumerfraudreporting.org/productscams_.php (http://www.consumerfraudreporting.org/productscams_.php) (and other consumer law advice sites), product scams are described as

Quote

Product Scams: False Advertising, Misrepresentation, Exaggerated Claims and Products that are not "fit for purpose"

Now, we need to argue, did their ads do any in the description? Another quote is listed below,

Quote

False Advertising
"Any advertising or promotion that misrepresents the nature, characteristics, qualities or geographic origin of goods, services or commercial activities" (Lanham Act, 15 U.S.C.A. § 1125(a))
Proof Requirement
To establish that an advertisement is false, a plaintiff must prove five things: (1) a false statement of fact has been made about the advertiser's own or another person's goods, services, or commercial activity; (2) the statement either deceives or has the potential to deceive a substantial portion of its targeted audience; (3) the deception is also likely to affect the purchasing decisions of its audience; (4) the advertising involves goods or services in interstate commerce; and (5) the deception has either resulted in or is likely to result in injury to the plaintiff. The most heavily weighed factor is the advertisement's potential to injure a customer. The injury is usually attributed to money the consumer lost through a purchase that would not have been made had the advertisement not been misleading. False statements can be defined in two ways: those that are false on their face and those that are implicitly false.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 02, 2015, 01:05:24 pm

Quote from: onlooker on October 02, 2015, 12:58:33 pm

According to http://www.consumerfraudreporting.org/productscams_.php (http://www.consumerfraudreporting.org/productscams_.php) (and other consumer law advice sites), product scams are described as

Quote

Product Scams: False Advertising, Misrepresentation, Exaggerated Claims and Products that are not "fit for purpose"

There's a lot of "Misrepresentation" and "Exaggerated Claims". Nobody could doubt that for a minute.

The "fan videos" are now revealed as an outright lie. That's "False advertising".

Ok, it was always a safe bet that two hot twins would never spontaneously make a fan video for Batteriser but they might have been friends/family of the Batteriser Brothers. Now there's hard proof that they're not.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on October 02, 2015, 01:33:17 pm

Quote from: miguelvp on October 01, 2015, 08:59:31 pm

Oh, about those professional looking fan commercials, they didn't cost that much, so I guess they are not rolling in big bucks.

Twins:
https://www.fiverr.com/theadtwins/create-a-promotional-video-featuring-twins (https://www.fiverr.com/theadtwins/create-a-promotional-video-featuring-twins)

Magician:
https://www.fiverr.com/angelinoperafan/do-magic-with-your-logo-or-text (https://www.fiverr.com/angelinoperafan/do-magic-with-your-logo-or-text)

Australian Nature Guy:
https://www.fiverr.com/coreworkouts/enthusiastically-talk-about-your-product-like-an-australian-nature-enthusiast-watch-video (https://www.fiverr.com/coreworkouts/enthusiastically-talk-about-your-product-like-an-australian-nature-enthusiast-watch-video)

It's a pretty cool site that fiverr thing :)

Wow nice find, and the the comment from aly saying that the "australian nature guy" was a friend just put a lots of discredit in the whole baterro campain :/

Quote from: miguelvp on October 01, 2015, 09:17:12 pm

I bet it did cost more than $15 because extra time and other things, but probably way less than $50 per video if it was even that much. Even at $200 per video it's not like a lot of mula.

What is strange is that for a fiverr you can get someone to design you a circuit :)

https://www.fiverr.com/keyuracharya/design-schematic-and-layout-for-pcb (https://www.fiverr.com/keyuracharya/design-schematic-and-layout-for-pcb)

there are others too.

Hum 5$ for an auto-routed PCB? That's quite expensive

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 02, 2015, 02:08:11 pm

Quote from: Godzil on October 02, 2015, 01:33:17 pm

What is strange is that for a fiverr you can get someone to design you a circuit :)
https://www.fiverr.com/keyuracharya/design-schematic-and-layout-for-pcb (https://www.fiverr.com/keyuracharya/design-schematic-and-layout-for-pcb)
there are others too.

Check out the feedback, looks totally legit  ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on October 02, 2015, 02:40:02 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on October 02, 2015, 02:08:11 pm

Quote from: Godzil on October 02, 2015, 01:33:17 pm

What is strange is that for a fiverr you can get someone to design you a circuit :)
https://www.fiverr.com/keyuracharya/design-schematic-and-layout-for-pcb (https://www.fiverr.com/keyuracharya/design-schematic-and-layout-for-pcb)
there are others too.

Check out the feedback, looks totally legit  ::)

There's even single instance of negative feedback from Zack  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on October 02, 2015, 03:06:02 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on October 02, 2015, 02:08:11 pm

Quote from: Godzil on October 02, 2015, 01:33:17 pm

What is strange is that for a fiverr you can get someone to design you a circuit :)
https://www.fiverr.com/keyuracharya/design-schematic-and-layout-for-pcb (https://www.fiverr.com/keyuracharya/design-schematic-and-layout-for-pcb)
there are others too.

Check out the feedback, looks totally legit  ::)

Yeah, that was something that was in my mind, could we rely on feedback on a website that sell fake feeback? ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on October 02, 2015, 05:42:32 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on October 02, 2015, 02:08:11 pm

Quote from: Godzil on October 02, 2015, 01:33:17 pm

What is strange is that for a fiverr you can get someone to design you a circuit :)
https://www.fiverr.com/keyuracharya/design-schematic-and-layout-for-pcb (https://www.fiverr.com/keyuracharya/design-schematic-and-layout-for-pcb)
there are others too.

Check out the feedback, looks totally legit  ::)

Legit feedback for a legit $5 

(you have to use your own moral judgement on what "legit" means in this case)

https://www.fiverr.com/keyuracharya/write-a-5-star-review-for-your-windows-phone-app?funnel=3e11a998-9e5f-4a06-bd13-bd6180492d56 (https://www.fiverr.com/keyuracharya/write-a-5-star-review-for-your-windows-phone-app?funnel=3e11a998-9e5f-4a06-bd13-bd6180492d56)

Can you trust his feedbacks when he is a professional feedbacker (5 stars only)?  It would only take you $5 to find out then you (whoever) could let the rest of us know. 

(Dave I heard you didn't get any stinky tofu  :( )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on October 02, 2015, 06:33:42 pm

I read the past few pages (ever since the revelation of using Fiverr for the fan videos and the fake reviews) and all I can say is how horribly disgusted I am by the way the Internet and e-commerce has evolved, and how incredulous things have become with the mushrooming of these types of pay-for social promotion/review and astroturfing businesses. The major sites (like Yelp, Facebook, YouTube, etc) all have a stake in cleaning up this crap using various algorithms if they are to sustain any sort of user-base who believes in honest reporting. I can tell you that once more people know about this, they will stop visiting these sites altogether and not believing a thing they read on them. You can't believe any reviews on many commercial and social sites anymore.

It is one thing to advertise on Facebook, YouTube, Google.... It is clearly marked as an advertisement. There is nothing devious about it. It is a completely different thing to pay for people to rate your product, write reviews, follow and manipulate dishonestly the reputation and popularity of you business/product and try to PASS IT OFF as it being from REAL USERS. Advertise all you want, but clearly mark it as an advertisement. Testimonials are not allowed by many PROFESSIONAL regulatory bodies because even though they can be placed in advertisements, there is too much opportunity for them to be abused and faked. Clearly, everyone will include a raving testimonial, which may not be reflective of the average general customer experience with that business.

So meanwhile you have to do your own research from multiple sources, read reviews from people you trust or have a history of saying it like it is, and following the money-trail on everything you see. For me, the Kickstarter and IndieGogo sites have already lost all credibility for not having protected backers from obvious scams where people have created "fantasy" renderings for products that there is no way they could ever deliver, and have no prototypes to speak of... Batteriser is a "saint" in comparison to those other campaigns that made WAY MORE money and ran off with it all and never delivered even a "goodbye suckas" to their backers. 

If we have learned anything from Batteriser and Batterroo Ltd, it is that they are probably NOT the only ones who have discovered these sites. If you start digging deeper, I bet you will find a PLAGUE of social-media and review manipulating services completely biasing the web. This has to be addressed by the industry, just like more and more people are installing ad-blockers on their pages, because people will eventually catch wind of this practice and lose all remaining trust in all review and ratings systems.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on October 02, 2015, 08:20:52 pm

I like the proposition of hiring a number of fivers to create videos using a script that calls out the practice of fake voting or promotion for products they 'have no commercial interest' in.
That immediately exposes all the campaigns as disingenuous, while letting the promoters continue their business - having been paid professional promoters
There is no fraud in fivers making the video, but there is if the advertiser use it to support unfounded commercial or scientific claims!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on October 02, 2015, 09:07:38 pm

When I replied about the "scam" claims, it was in reference to the insinuations that Batteroo will simply take the money and run. Once again, there is no evidence that will occur. What has been shown thus far is a genuine effort to develop a product that will hopefully be delivered. I even believe that they will deliver functional boost converters. Whether or not that product will provide the benefits as claimed is another matter.

I have concerns that Batteroo will exhaust their funding before they fulfill their commitments. I have far less concern that they will not attempt to deliver at all.

Once again, fairness and accuracy matter.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on October 02, 2015, 09:08:16 pm

Quote from: SL4P on October 02, 2015, 08:20:52 pm

There is no fraud in fivers making the video, but there is if the advertiser use it to support unfounded commercial or scientific claims!

There is no fraud in hiring Fiverr people or anyone else to make a video advertisement. Whether they stretch the truth or not is another story, but at least let's be clear about it... and call it an advertisement.

What I don't like is when an IGG campaign or any other business tries to proclaim it as being "grass-roots" or hide the fact that it is a paid advertisement. For example, when there are fake reviews, likes and so on, portraying to be real honest people like you and me who have tried the product and giving their opinion.

Let's be fair, you can't even trust a lot of "normal" reviews because you only get biased results. Often when people complain, they write nasty stuff. You hear bad stories and complaints way more than good or stellar service. Just look at many of the reviews for hotels and resorts, and restaurants. So I would take them all with a grain of salt... This just adds even more uncertainty in the mix.

What we need are systems that allow responses to reviews from other users. For example, if someone bad-mouths an establishment why not the owner of the business be able to respond? Perhaps they would shed light on what happened, or apologize, or point out the customer was an a-hole who couldn't be satisfied no matter what. Or if people put fake reviews, other users could write replies and ask if they tried this or that and how they came up with praising it when they found all these other issues, and so on. But the systems aren't designed that way... Of course that could also be abused. So what else is there? Just don't trust anything you read from people you don't know... only from people who you know (friends, family, co-workers) and take a risk on it yourself and make up your own mind I guess?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on October 02, 2015, 09:12:10 pm

Quote from: edy on October 02, 2015, 09:08:16 pm

Quote from: SL4P on October 02, 2015, 08:20:52 pm

There is no fraud in fivers making the video, but there is if the advertiser use it to support unfounded commercial or scientific claims!

There is no fraud in hiring Fiverr people or anyone else to make a video advertisement. Whether they stretch the truth or not is another story, but at least let's be clear about it... and call it an advertisement.

No stress, but that's exactly what I said.
The videos, and asking for them to be made are no problem, but promoting them as genuine - appears to be representative of Batteroo' illness.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on October 02, 2015, 10:14:07 pm

Quote from: SL4P on October 02, 2015, 09:12:10 pm

No stress, but that's exactly what I said.
The videos, and asking for them to be made are no problem, but promoting them as genuine - appears to be representative of Batteroo' illness.

Totally agree!!!  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 02, 2015, 10:58:16 pm

Quote from: edy on October 02, 2015, 09:08:16 pm

What I don't like is when an IGG campaign or any other business tries to proclaim it as being "grass-roots" or hide the fact that it is a paid advertisement. For example, when there are fake reviews, likes and so on, portraying to be real honest people like you and me who have tried the product and giving their opinion.

Unfortunately this is so common in the industry that is even has a name - astroturfing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing
It now seems so common that people expect it as being normal business practice and see nothing wrong with it. As if it's part of the official startup marketing playbook.
Like people accepting that politicians lie, as if it's a part of the job.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on October 02, 2015, 11:04:58 pm

Kinda now the reality is that ethics, principles, and commercial integrity are an optional extra - only after you win the race to the bottom!
While it is being very selective, it seems that as cross-border/cross-cultural trading became more common in the 50s and 60s - we have broadly accepted the lowest common denominator in all business practices.
Probably irreversible, so we have to look for the next era of commerce to implement stronger standards...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kilrah on October 03, 2015, 12:54:49 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on October 02, 2015, 09:07:38 pm

I have concerns that Batteroo will exhaust their funding before they fulfill their commitments. I have far less concern that they will not attempt to deliver at all.

The only problem is that it's very easy to do the latter while using the former as an excuse... and you just showed it would work as you'd believe it :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on October 03, 2015, 02:10:08 pm

Quote from: Kilrah on October 03, 2015, 12:54:49 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on October 02, 2015, 09:07:38 pm

I have concerns that Batteroo will exhaust their funding before they fulfill their commitments. I have far less concern that they will not attempt to deliver at all.

The only problem is that it's very easy to do the latter while using the former as an excuse... and you just showed it would work as you'd believe it :)

If so, then *you* need to explain why so much money has been spent thus far on industrial design, marketing, and prototyping. I know energy fraudsters. I meet them professionally. The ones that take the money and run do not spend money like this. They pocket it all instead.

 Batteroo has some aspects with regards to claims (as in nearly all of them) that I take serious issue with. As far as these assertions that Batteroo will pocket this pittance of cash they have received, once again, all evidence is to the contrary. All evidence is that Batteroo will make a good faith effort to deliver a physical product to their clients.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on October 03, 2015, 02:26:30 pm

Honoring the IGG orders is going to cost them a fortune. A large amount of those are likely to be freebees, awarded for referrals. So far, we've only seen real sleeves on AA batteries. Production for AAA, C and D cells has to start in earnest.
It could take a few months, but once reality sets in and dreams of large orders and IPO evaporate, it wouldn't be surprising if SKTA pulls the plug (they own 25% equity in Batteroo).
Personally, and it's just a hunch, I will be amazed if anything gets released.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kilrah on October 03, 2015, 02:39:55 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on October 03, 2015, 02:10:08 pm

If so, then *you* need to explain why so much money has been spent thus far on industrial design, marketing, and prototyping. I know energy fraudsters. I meet them professionally. The ones that take the money and run do not spend money like this.

I really hope you're right.
Personally when I see someone is able to find just the right balance between BS claims and proper ones to get people to follow... I tend to believe they're just as capable of finding the same balance of just spending enough to appear legit while pocketing the rest. And their situation does sound a bit like that to me. Base a whole solid business plan on stirring things up and getting initial funding from a crowdfunding campaign to attract investors (nothing wrong with that), BUT with a product that is deliberately just not viable enough so that you're pretty sure that no investor will actually join.
When none joins, "oh damn we don't have enough to go ahead and start production, too bad, bye".

Hopefully I'm just too negative.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on October 03, 2015, 03:11:41 pm

Quote from: Kilrah on October 03, 2015, 02:39:55 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on October 03, 2015, 02:10:08 pm

If so, then *you* need to explain why so much money has been spent thus far on industrial design, marketing, and prototyping. I know energy fraudsters. I meet them professionally. The ones that take the money and run do not spend money like this.

I really hope you're right.
Personally when I see someone is able to find just the right balance between BS claims and proper ones to get people to follow... I tend to believe they're just as capable of finding the same balance of just spending enough to appear legit while pocketing the rest. And their situation does sound a bit like that to me. Base a whole solid business plan on stirring things up and getting initial funding from a crowdfunding campaign to attract investors (nothing wrong with that), BUT with a product that is deliberately just not viable enough so that you're pretty sure that no investor will actually join.
When none joins, "oh damn we don't have enough to go ahead and start production, too bad, bye".

Hopefully I'm just too negative.

I, too, believe they have far too little money to fully execute their commitments, but I think there will be at least some evidence of the effort on the way.

This whole matter is so disappointing because it would be fantastic to see all the effort and money that has gone into this be used for a product that is really good and will meet the maker's claims.
--------------
ETA: I do think you and everyone has a right to be very skeptical of a new energy claim. There are so many bad ones, that it's hard to be anything else.

I have erred on the side of trying to see he good that there is to be learned from Batteroo's campaign. I hope there is a young Turk out there who can glean what was done so well and apply it to a great product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 03, 2015, 03:24:50 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on October 03, 2015, 02:10:08 pm

The ones that take the money and run do not spend money like this. They pocket it all instead.

My prediction: They'll spend all the VC money on high living and when it runs out they'll announce they can't deliver any Batterisers.

They'll blame Big Battery/EEVBLOG's hate campaign for this failure (it prevented them from getting that big contract they needed!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 03, 2015, 03:45:52 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on October 03, 2015, 03:11:41 pm

ETA: I do think you and everyone has a right to be very skeptical of a new energy claim. There are so many bad ones, that...

That's not the reason. Not even close.

The reason we're skeptical is because we the laws of physics tell us what energy is available. We can put a percentage figure on the efficiency of all our energy sources. Hard numbers.

eg. Imagine somebody tells you than can make a solar panel that produces 10x more energy than existing panels.

In that case you can look at the efficiency figure for existing panels and if that number is higher than 10% then the new claim HAS TO BE BULLSHIT. You don't even need to investigate or listen to the theory behind it. The only way it can be 10 times better is if they also managed to increase the output of the sun.

And ... if a new energy does come along it won't be hidden behind smoke and mirrors like Batteriser. It will be very clear it works.

They also won't need any 'investors' or 'venture capital' to get it off the ground. people will be fighting to give them money long before you or I even hear about it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kilrah on October 03, 2015, 04:25:29 pm

Quote from: Fungus on October 03, 2015, 03:45:52 pm

In that case you can look at the efficiency figure for existing panels and if that number is higher than 10% then the new claim HAS TO BE BULLSHIT.

So if someone came and showed a panel that demonstrably had doubled the efficiency of existing ones it would have to be BS just because there's too much of a gap? Come on, that makes no sense.

Here the issue is that there is just nothing that can be improved the way they say they can.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 03, 2015, 05:09:25 pm

Quote from: Kilrah on October 03, 2015, 04:25:29 pm

So if someone came and showed a panel that demonstrably had doubled the efficiency of existing ones it would have to be BS just because there's too much of a gap? Come on, that makes no sense.

I didn't say that.

Big jumps towards 100% are obviously possible.... but extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. Very big jumps had better come with some independently reproducible measurements.

A corollary of this is that if Batteriser worked as claimed they'd be handing out free samples. They'd want people to try for themselves. That fact that they aren't doing this is just another big red flag.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on October 03, 2015, 05:34:10 pm

Quote from: Kilrah on October 03, 2015, 04:25:29 pm

So if someone came and showed a panel that demonstrably had doubled the efficiency of existing ones it would have to be BS just because there's too much of a gap? Come on, that makes no sense.

No, Fungus is correct.  If solar panel "X" converts 25% of all of the solar energy (all radiation including heat, light, etc.) it receives into electrical energy and someone says they can improve that by 10x, it is impossible.  (Making the panel 10x the size doesn't count.)  It would have to be converting 250% of the energy it receives from the sun.  How exactly is it going to do that without increasing Sol's output by 2.5x??  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kilrah on October 03, 2015, 05:48:17 pm

Ah yes of course, I actually misread a part of his post:

Quote

In that case you can look at the efficiency figure for existing panels and if that number is higher than 10%

I read that as meaning that "if the difference between the efficiency of existing panels and the new one is more than 10%".

I don't think anybody would dare claiming a 10 times improvement on anything though, even the Batterizer doesn't ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 03, 2015, 05:56:53 pm

Quote from: Kilrah on October 03, 2015, 05:48:17 pm

I don't think anybody would dare claiming a 10 times improvement on anything though, even the Batterizer doesn't ;)

They claim 80% of that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: uwezi on October 03, 2015, 07:20:01 pm

Quote from: Kilrah on October 03, 2015, 05:48:17 pm

I don't think anybody would dare claiming a 10 times improvement on anything though, even the Batterizer doesn't ;)

Exactly, even in the beginning Batterizer only claimed an 8x improvement  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 04, 2015, 12:23:01 am

Quote from: Kilrah on October 03, 2015, 02:39:55 pm

I really hope you're right.
Personally when I see someone is able to find just the right balance between BS claims and proper ones to get people to follow... I tend to believe they're just as capable of finding the same balance of just spending enough to appear legit while pocketing the rest. And their situation does sound a bit like that to me.

The difference is this isn't a couple of guys in a garage, there is a huge VC firm backing them, and they have big reputable names on their board of directors. Heck, one of them is the former president of K-Mart. To think they are going to "run off" with a lousy $300k or whatever is ludicrous. Bob himself got something like 2-3 times this payout when his last company booted him out (that's public record as has been posted on here)

Of course that doesn't mean it's going to work. It is fairly clear that they are in a world of trouble with delivering with just the funds raised from IGG. But if they do fail to deliver in some way, it won't be because their plan was to just not deliver from the get-go

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on October 04, 2015, 03:21:40 am

Quote from: drussell on October 03, 2015, 05:34:10 pm

How exactly is it going to do that without increasing Sol's output by 2.5x??  :)

Make the cells thinner and pack more cells in there, more layers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on October 04, 2015, 03:24:33 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 04, 2015, 12:23:01 am

Of course that doesn't mean it's going to work. It is fairly clear that they are in a world of trouble with delivering with just the funds raised from IGG. But if they do fail to deliver in some way, it won't be because their plan was to just not deliver from the get-go

Not to mention the world of trouble they are in for falsely claiming certification.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 04, 2015, 03:42:07 am

Quote from: ccs46 on October 04, 2015, 03:21:40 am

Quote from: drussell on October 03, 2015, 05:34:10 pm

How exactly is it going to do that without increasing Sol's output by 2.5x??  :)

Make the cells thinner and pack more cells in there, more layers.

Available Watts of sunlight per square meter is a fixed quantity. It doesn't matter how many 'layers' you put in a solar panel, you can't get more energy output than that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on October 04, 2015, 09:08:19 am

Korean SKTA is not really a big player in the VC California world. They haven't been around for more than a couple of years. They are focusing on reviving the Silicon Valley hardware business, instead of investing in software, like other VC companies. Batteroo is their first venture into the consumer product arena. By the look of things, not much 'energy' went into assessing the final product performance.
Up to one million dollars is allocated to each start-up, for an equity of 25%, with a revenue stream or acquisition within 3 years. Their overall initial funding was 10 million dollars in 2013.
They have 5 start-ups on their books (incubator space for 11), with, AFAIK, no return on investment yet (target 8~10%).
Incidentally, the tech start-up failure rate in California is hovering around 90%. The failure rate for VC-backed companies is still about 75%.
The odds don't look good for SKTA.

SKTA strategy:
(http://electronics360.globalspec.com/images/assets/224/4224/c309cd51-d3d1-40fe-a839-bdf43ad2318e.png)

http://www.inc.com/john-mcdermott/report-3-out-of-4-venture-backed-start-ups-fail.html (http://www.inc.com/john-mcdermott/report-3-out-of-4-venture-backed-start-ups-fail.html)
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/28/silicon-valley-startup-failure-culture-success-myth (http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/28/silicon-valley-startup-failure-culture-success-myth)

(https://wp.streetwise.co/dcinno/files/2014/09/Startups-Fail.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 04, 2015, 12:29:29 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on October 04, 2015, 09:08:19 am

(https://wp.streetwise.co/dcinno/files/2014/09/Startups-Fail.png)

That doesn't add up to 100...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on October 04, 2015, 04:54:54 pm

This comment would normally have been deleted by the batteiser team, but going on 3 days now.... cant belive they would run off with so little money so it can't possible be that.

Also no update for 10 Days now...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on October 04, 2015, 05:06:58 pm

If the project gets canned, the IGG funds would be used to fill the hole at SKTA first. I don't think there would be much left over for the Roohparvar brothers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on October 04, 2015, 05:23:24 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on October 04, 2015, 04:54:54 pm

This comment would normally have been deleted by the batteiser team, but going on 3 days now.... cant belive they would run off with so little money so it can't possible be that.

Also no update for 10 Days now...

Yeah, I was surprised that comment hadn't been deleted when I noticed it a couple days ago.  I'm even more surprised it is still there now.  They're certainly not paying much attention to that IGG page recently.  That is one of the only even remotely critical comments to have survived on there for even a matter of hours.  :)

Out of curiosity, is this Marcel_X one of the members here on EEVblog?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on October 04, 2015, 05:33:04 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on October 04, 2015, 09:08:19 am

Korean SKTA is not really a big player in the VC California world. They haven't been around for more than a couple of years. They are focusing on reviving the Silicon Valley hardware business, instead of investing in software, like other VC companies. Batteroo is their first venture into the consumer product arena. By the look of things, not much 'energy' went into assessing the final product performance.
Up to one million dollars is allocated to each start-up, for an equity of 25%, with a revenue stream or acquisition within 3 years. Their overall initial funding was 10 million dollars in 2013.
They have 5 start-ups on their books (incubator space for 11), with, AFAIK, no return on investment yet (target 8~10%).
Incidentally, the tech start-up failure rate in California is hovering around 90%. The failure rate for VC-backed companies is still about 75%.
The odds don't look good for SKTA.

Excellent review of SKTA credentials. An inexperienced VC with money, but no tech savvy, falling for the story of a self-aggrandizing, but mediocre, technical leadership. A short expected lifetime.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on October 04, 2015, 06:32:24 pm

Quote from: photon on October 04, 2015, 05:33:04 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on October 04, 2015, 09:08:19 am

Korean SKTA is not really a big player in the VC California world. They haven't been around for more than a couple of years. They are focusing on reviving the Silicon Valley hardware business, instead of investing in software, like other VC companies. Batteroo is their first venture into the consumer product arena. By the look of things, not much 'energy' went into assessing the final product performance.
Up to one million dollars is allocated to each start-up, for an equity of 25%, with a revenue stream or acquisition within 3 years. Their overall initial funding was 10 million dollars in 2013.
They have 5 start-ups on their books (incubator space for 11), with, AFAIK, no return on investment yet (target 8~10%).
Incidentally, the tech start-up failure rate in California is hovering around 90%. The failure rate for VC-backed companies is still about 75%.
The odds don't look good for SKTA.

Excellent review of SKTA credentials. An inexperienced VC with money, but no tech savvy, falling for the story of a self-aggrandizing, but mediocre, technical leadership. A short expected lifetime.

I agree that SKTA is inexperienced, but given compared to some of the heralded alternatives like Y Combinator, SK's $1M for 20% of the company beats the heck out of Y-C's $120K for 7% of the company.  From Batteroo's standpoint, they got a much better deal.   

The sad part of this is that when investors realize what is actually happening with startup lottery mania - funding a good business will be much, much harder. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on October 04, 2015, 06:48:41 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on October 04, 2015, 06:32:24 pm

Quote from: photon on October 04, 2015, 05:33:04 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on October 04, 2015, 09:08:19 am

Korean SKTA is not really a big player in the VC California world. They haven't been around for more than a couple of years. They are focusing on reviving the Silicon Valley hardware business, instead of investing in software, like other VC companies. Batteroo is their first venture into the consumer product arena. By the look of things, not much 'energy' went into assessing the final product performance.
Up to one million dollars is allocated to each start-up, for an equity of 25%, with a revenue stream or acquisition within 3 years. Their overall initial funding was 10 million dollars in 2013.
They have 5 start-ups on their books (incubator space for 11), with, AFAIK, no return on investment yet (target 8~10%).
Incidentally, the tech start-up failure rate in California is hovering around 90%. The failure rate for VC-backed companies is still about 75%.
The odds don't look good for SKTA.

Excellent review of SKTA credentials. An inexperienced VC with money, but no tech savvy, falling for the story of a self-aggrandizing, but mediocre, technical leadership. A short expected lifetime.

The sad part of this is that when investors realize what is actually happening with startup lottery mania - funding a good business will be much, much harder.

I have no sympathy for stupid investors. They, like all of us, must learn from either history (dot.com bubble) or from their mistakes. Nor do I have any sympathy for stupid VC's. Nor am I worried about good businesses finding funding. The "good" ones always do.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AF6LJ on October 04, 2015, 10:12:17 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on October 04, 2015, 04:54:54 pm

This comment would normally have been deleted by the batteiser team, but going on 3 days now.... cant belive they would run off with so little money so it can't possible be that.

Also no update for 10 Days now...

No surprises here;
This guy comes to mind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._T._Barnum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._T._Barnum)
 :popcorn:  :-DD :-DD :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on October 04, 2015, 11:11:15 pm

Hi,

I have noticed that they have removed the link to the IGG campaign from the main page of their website.

http://batteriser.com/ (http://batteriser.com/)

You can find on the 'Blog' section of their website, but it is not prominent anymore.

Maybe they don't want potential investors reading the comments or tracking the campaign ??


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on October 04, 2015, 11:14:19 pm

Quote from: AF6LJ on October 04, 2015, 10:12:17 pm

No surprises here;
This guy comes to mind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._T._Barnum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._T._Barnum)

I do not get it?  Seems he was a good guy.  From your link:

Quote

At his death, most critics had forgiven him and he was praised for good works. Barnum was hailed as an icon of American spirit and ingenuity, and was perhaps the most famous American in the world.

Are you saying the guys at Batt are good guys by comparison?  Seems the article says he liked to fool people but not cheat them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AF6LJ on October 05, 2015, 02:47:53 am

Quote from: ez24 on October 04, 2015, 11:14:19 pm

Quote from: AF6LJ on October 04, 2015, 10:12:17 pm

No surprises here;
This guy comes to mind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._T._Barnum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._T._Barnum)

I do not get it?  Seems he was a good guy.  From your link:

Quote

At his death, most critics had forgiven him and he was praised for good works. Barnum was hailed as an icon of American spirit and ingenuity, and was perhaps the most famous American in the world.

Are you saying the guys at Batt are good guys by comparison?  Seems the article says he liked to fool people but not cheat them.

No; he is credited with saying "There is a sucker born every minute".
He was right. Like with the stock market a sucker's bet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bills on October 05, 2015, 04:24:36 am

Realy ?  stock market is a suckers bet?
well I disagree and I am driving my new lotus evora  (2014) with what I EARNED in the stock market!
If you can't figure out how to do it maybe you should quit listening to the socialists on this forum.
Let the flames begin!
My lotus hauls ass.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bills on October 05, 2015, 04:36:03 am

edit

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 05, 2015, 06:49:49 am

They are still on track to ship on November:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=174460;image)

Don't say whether that includes all sizes, or just the AA, which is the only one we have seen a working prototype of.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on October 05, 2015, 08:54:10 am

Quote

Batteriser is crafted from stainless steel at 0.1 mm thin to fit back neatly back into your devices’ battery compartments, and comes in 2 variations: for side-by-side batteries or batteries that are stacked, like in a keyboard.

Umm... when did this happen?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on October 05, 2015, 09:01:39 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 05, 2015, 06:49:49 am

... or just the AA, which is the only one we have seen a working prototype of.

I didn't see that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 05, 2015, 09:43:54 am

Quote from: Galenbo on October 05, 2015, 09:01:39 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 05, 2015, 06:49:49 am

... or just the AA, which is the only one we have seen a working prototype of.

I didn't see that.

IIRC you keep repeating this scepticism, and I don't know why.
They have clearly shown prototypes, reputable people have physically seen them work, they exist.
No one, except you it seems, seems to think they don't exist.
Making a tiny boost converter like this is not rocket science.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on October 05, 2015, 09:55:23 am

Maybe he means that they haven;t show their product to honor their claims.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on October 05, 2015, 12:19:47 pm

Quote from: drussell on October 04, 2015, 05:23:24 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on October 04, 2015, 04:54:54 pm

This comment would normally have been deleted by the batteiser team, but going on 3 days now.... cant belive they would run off with so little money so it can't possible be that.

Also no update for 10 Days now...

Yeah, I was surprised that comment hadn't been deleted when I noticed it a couple days ago.  I'm even more surprised it is still there now.  They're certainly not paying much attention to that IGG page recently.  That is one of the only even remotely critical comments to have survived on there for even a matter of hours.  :)

Out of curiosity, is this Marcel_X one of the members here on EEVblog?

Yes I am. Quietly following this thread  :popcorn:.
And surprisingly my previous comment has also not been removed!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on October 05, 2015, 12:31:35 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on October 05, 2015, 09:43:54 am

Making a tiny boost converter like this is not rocket science.

What is rocket science, is whether it does what they are claim it will do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2015, 12:56:23 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on October 05, 2015, 12:31:35 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on October 05, 2015, 09:43:54 am

Making a tiny boost converter like this is not rocket science.

What is rocket science, is whether it does what they are claim it will do.

No amount of science can do that. Rocket or otherwise.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AF6LJ on October 05, 2015, 02:26:52 pm

Quote from: bills on October 05, 2015, 04:24:36 am

Realy ?  stock market is a suckers bet?
well I disagree and I am driving my new lotus evora  (2014) with what I EARNED in the stock market!
If you can't figure out how to do it maybe you should quit listening to the socialists on this forum.
Let the flames begin!
My lotus hauls ass.

That's truly funny
And no flames, for the vast majority it is a suckers game, simply because they don't do their own homework, they leave it up to someone else. Just like owning a car, unless you know something about that car you are at the mercy of whomever you have it service / repaired by. A sucker of another breed.

Eleven years ago I had a rather interesting set of conversations with a roommate who had his series seven license. There are no sure things in the stock market, it is like playing black jack, you can win but you have to be well informed. There are three things I have taken away from both my own experience managing my own 401K when I had one.
1. the brokers make the money
2. as long as yhour money is in paper, it has the potential to be worth less than the paper it is written on.
3. you are a damned fool if you leave all the decision making process up to your broker.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled thread.
Thank You.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AF6LJ on October 05, 2015, 02:30:14 pm

Quote from: bills on October 05, 2015, 04:36:03 am

Evora-s 6 speed Manuel 245 hp. 0-60 4.4 sec. 178 mph top speed way more car than I can or will drive .
but it will spend it's time in the garage with the wifes 911s-sc targa it will be an investment .
next up is a jaguar v-12

Take good care of it, a car up on blocks in a garage still needs maintenance. :)
Nice car.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on October 05, 2015, 02:39:19 pm

Quote from: bills on October 05, 2015, 04:36:03 am

Evora-s 6 speed Manuel 245 hp. 0-60 4.4 sec. 178 mph top speed way more car than I can or will drive .
but it will spend it's time in the garage with the wifes 911s-sc targa it will be an investment .
next up is a jaguar v-12

Nice cars, but I'm sceptical that they could be considered an investment? Do you really think that there asking price will ever go up? Or in what way do you consider them an investment?

Bryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: helius on October 05, 2015, 08:02:51 pm

Only cars with very limited production or special significance appreciate in value. Just like baseball cards.
And the people who think they are "investing" are mostly the same.
"If you can't figure out how to do it" --> fundamental attribution error

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on October 05, 2015, 08:11:07 pm

Update.

(http://i.imgur.com/0vEGJBJ.png)

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on October 05, 2015, 08:26:23 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on October 05, 2015, 08:54:10 am

Quote

Batteriser is crafted from stainless steel at 0.1 mm thin to fit back neatly back into your devices’ battery compartments, and comes in 2 variations: for side-by-side batteries or batteries that are stacked, like in a keyboard.

Umm... when did this happen?

That is indeed something new! What about devices where batteries are stacked, side by side?
So they are bringing out 2 versions of every sleeve, 8 in total?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on October 05, 2015, 08:45:45 pm

Quote from: photon on October 04, 2015, 05:33:04 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on October 04, 2015, 09:08:19 am

Korean SKTA is not really a big player in the VC California world. They haven't been around for more than a couple of years. They are focusing on reviving the Silicon Valley hardware business, instead of investing in software, like other VC companies. Batteroo is their first venture into the consumer product arena. By the look of things, not much 'energy' went into assessing the final product performance.
Up to one million dollars is allocated to each start-up, for an equity of 25%, with a revenue stream or acquisition within 3 years. Their overall initial funding was 10 million dollars in 2013.
They have 5 start-ups on their books (incubator space for 11), with, AFAIK, no return on investment yet (target 8~10%).
Incidentally, the tech start-up failure rate in California is hovering around 90%. The failure rate for VC-backed companies is still about 75%.
The odds don't look good for SKTA.

Excellent review of SKTA credentials. An inexperienced VC with money, but no tech savvy, falling for the story of a self-aggrandizing, but mediocre, technical leadership. A short expected lifetime.

In case you want to compare SKTA/Batteriser with a real VC/Startup: http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1327894 (http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1327894)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 05, 2015, 09:48:19 pm

Quote from: firewalker on October 05, 2015, 08:11:07 pm

Update.

That was a pretty lame update after 11 days. No detail at all.
Their campaign was a classic example of about how to do everything right (from a marketing/sales and running a campaign perspective). Can't say the same for the updates after it's closed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on October 05, 2015, 09:56:10 pm

No, the update was good: what the backers learned from it was:

"This is only the beginning"
 :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on October 05, 2015, 11:04:39 pm

Quote

Batteriser is crafted from stainless steel at 0.1 mm thin to fit back neatly back into your devices’ battery compartments, and comes in 2 variations: for side-by-side batteries or batteries that are stacked, like in a keyboard.

My take on this is they have different versions for "stacked" (i.e. in-series) batteries versus "side-by-side" (i.e. parallel) battery configurations. This is to adjust for the in-efficiencies of multiple boost converters in series. At least that's what I read into this announcement.

NOW.... as far as the general lay public understanding what this means for their toys and appliances, I don't know. Some people have a hard time even putting batteries in the correct polarity orientation. Now ask them to decypher the circuit internals (which may not be entirely obvious) into whether those "side-by-side" batteries are anti-parallel or going in the same direction, and whether the ends are common or not, or wired in some other way. It will be hard to sometimes figure out for some people.

Is this what they mean or is it something else?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on October 05, 2015, 11:13:52 pm

Quote

"side-by-side" (i.e. parallel) battery configurations

Maybe the "parallel" configuration is the case they come in?  Parallel packing vs serial packing  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 06, 2015, 12:07:07 am

Quote from: edy on October 05, 2015, 11:04:39 pm

Quote

Batteriser is crafted from stainless steel at 0.1 mm thin to fit back neatly back into your devices’ battery compartments, and comes in 2 variations: for side-by-side batteries or batteries that are stacked, like in a keyboard.

My take on this is they have different versions for "stacked" (i.e. in-series) batteries versus "side-by-side" (i.e. parallel) battery configurations. This is to adjust for the in-efficiencies of multiple boost converters in series. At least that's what I read into this announcement.
NOW.... as far as the general lay public understanding what this means for their toys and appliances, I don't know. Some people have a hard time even putting batteries in the correct polarity orientation. Now ask them to decypher the circuit internals (which may not be entirely obvious) into whether those "side-by-side" batteries are anti-parallel or going in the same direction, and whether the ends are common or not, or wired in some other way. It will be hard to sometimes figure out for some people.

It will be impossible for most, and they won't even bother checking even if they could.
And what type do backers get shipped? Will they send out a survey asking people which type they want?
This has all the hallmarks of a last minute  :palm: worthy oopsy.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on October 06, 2015, 02:40:39 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 05, 2015, 09:48:19 pm

That was a pretty lame update after 11 days. No detail at all.
Their campaign was a classic example of about how to do everything right (from a marketing/sales and running a campaign perspective). Can't say the same for the updates after it's closed.

Yes, slick and effective marketing BS, for sure....  Actual information or useful data and statistics, any technical information at all, anywhere?  Not so much!

Quote from: EEVblog on October 06, 2015, 12:07:07 am

Quote from: edy on October 05, 2015, 11:04:39 pm

Quote

Batteriser is crafted from stainless steel at 0.1 mm thin to fit back neatly back into your devices’ battery compartments, and comes in 2 variations: for side-by-side batteries or batteries that are stacked, like in a keyboard.

My take on this is they have different versions for "stacked" (i.e. in-series) batteries versus "side-by-side" (i.e. parallel) battery configurations. This is to adjust for the in-efficiencies of multiple boost converters in series. At least that's what I read into this announcement.
NOW.... as far as the general lay public understanding what this means for their toys and appliances, I don't know. Some people have a hard time even putting batteries in the correct polarity orientation. Now ask them to decypher the circuit internals (which may not be entirely obvious) into whether those "side-by-side" batteries are anti-parallel or going in the same direction, and whether the ends are common or not, or wired in some other way. It will be hard to sometimes figure out for some people.

It will be impossible for most, and they won't even bother checking even if they could.
And what type do backers get shipped? Will they send out a survey asking people which type they want?
This has all the hallmarks of a last minute  :palm: worthy oopsy.

They've certainly had several :palm: worthy oopsies during this cherade and they still obviously seem to be engineering these things on-the-fly, as it were...  This is not at all how you bring an honest, quality product to market, regardless of how "slick" your marketing department is.  :palm:

What utter sleaze....  SHOW US THE NUMBERS!!  Give us REAL data!!!

As an aside, I hadn't even thought about those rare situations where cells are actually connected in parallel.  While it does present problems with bare cells (they must be totally matched or will want to try to drain the stonger cell into the weaker cell,) that does add an extra dimension to the circuit design I hadn't considered, though many topologies will essentially just work, at least to the extent that they may not "fight" each other trying to regulate to an exact voltage with no load, for example, but it may not be trivial to make them drain both batteries evenly.)  That certainly requires some consideration, for sure!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on October 06, 2015, 03:20:51 am

So if there's two versions of each batteriser, which version are the backers getting, and why are they only just now being told about it?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 06, 2015, 03:41:08 am

Quote from: drussell on October 06, 2015, 02:40:39 am

Yes, slick and effective marketing BS, for sure....  Actual information or useful data and statistics, any technical information at all, anywhere?  Not so much!

That stuff doesn't matter when you are strictly (as I am) talking about their actual campaign. I can't see how anyone could argue it was not executed to almost flawless perfection.

Quote from: EEVblog on October 06, 2015, 12:07:07 am

They've certainly had several :palm: worthy oopsies during this cherade and they still obviously seem to be engineering these things on-the-fly, as it were...  This is not at all how you bring an honest, quality product to market, regardless of how "slick" your marketing department is.  :palm:

That's got nothing to do with the running of the campaign though. Different issue.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on October 06, 2015, 04:10:37 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 06, 2015, 03:41:08 am

That stuff doesn't matter when you are strictly (as I am) talking about their actual campaign. I can't see how anyone could argue it was not executed to almost flawless perfection.
...
That's got nothing to do with the running of the campaign though. Different issue.

Oh, most definitely!

It just seems to me that with any kind of (especially crowdfunded) technilogical gadget, anything that is promoted without supplying any kind of technical information to back up claims or properly describe what the campaign is actually peddling should be the kind of thing that would raise red flags, even to some non-technical-type people.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on October 06, 2015, 04:26:25 am

Quote from: drussell on October 06, 2015, 04:10:37 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 06, 2015, 03:41:08 am

That stuff doesn't matter when you are strictly (as I am) talking about their actual campaign. I can't see how anyone could argue it was not executed to almost flawless perfection.
...
That's got nothing to do with the running of the campaign though. Different issue.

Oh, most definitely!

It just seems to me that with any kind of (especially crowdfunded) technological gadget, anything that is promoted without supplying any kind of technical information to back up claims or properly describe what the campaign is actually peddling should be the kind of thing that would raise red flags, even to some non-technical-type people.  :)

The problem is they did apparently have technical information, at least from the perspective of non-technical people.  Their videos and presentations had "charts" and "graphs" and "equipment tests" and "experts".  If you didn't know what voltage or current or an oscilloscope was, it's good enough.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on October 06, 2015, 08:21:48 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 05, 2015, 09:43:54 am

Quote from: Galenbo on October 05, 2015, 09:01:39 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 05, 2015, 06:49:49 am

... or just the AA, which is the only one we have seen a working prototype of.

I didn't see that.

IIRC you keep repeating this scepticism, and I don't know why.
They have clearly shown prototypes, reputable people have physically seen them work, they exist.
No one, except you it seems, seems to think they don't exist.
Making a tiny boost converter like this is not rocket science.

Just because they did not show prototypes. And I did not see a working prototype in their videos.
Nothing changed. I saw renderings, I saw a metal shell. I saw a test setup with a monkey.
Just like everybody else.

You mentioned the "reputable" "reporters" before. You did not say who they are, what they know, they did not make/show a report.
You just mentioned they said "it worked", without specifying how, where, why, conditions, report.

What's the minimum order quantity for the needed-chip-miniaturisation?
4? To make 4 working-prototypes? I think it's more like 4000 or 40000, but please feel free to correct me here,
to give examples of low-quantitiy chip manifacturers, lead times, costs.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on October 06, 2015, 08:33:56 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on October 05, 2015, 08:54:10 am

Quote

Batteriser is crafted from stainless steel at 0.1 mm thin to fit back neatly back into your devices’ battery compartments, and comes in 2 variations: for side-by-side batteries or batteries that are stacked, like in a keyboard.

Umm... when did this happen?

The

Quote

, and comes in 2 variations: for side-by-side batteries or batteries that are stacked, like in a keyboard

part disappeared from the batteriser website.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2015, 09:02:52 am

Quote from: Galenbo on October 06, 2015, 08:21:48 am

Just because they did not show prototypes. And I did not see a working prototype in their videos.

What about the Apple keyboard video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4zjWynjEo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4zjWynjEo)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on October 06, 2015, 09:08:48 am

Quote from: Fungus on October 06, 2015, 09:02:52 am

Quote from: Galenbo on October 06, 2015, 08:21:48 am

Just because they did not show prototypes. And I did not see a working prototype in their videos.

What about the Apple keyboard video?

I've been in doubt of mentioning my thought for many weeks, but although this video may very well be an actual working demonstration of the device, at the same time there is no guarantee that you are actually looking at the keyboard that is paired with the laptop. I mean it would be trivial to have a second keyboard nearby that is actually showing its stats on the computer screen.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2015, 09:44:31 am

Quote from: jippie on October 06, 2015, 09:08:48 am

Quote from: Fungus on October 06, 2015, 09:02:52 am

What about the Apple keyboard video?

I've been in doubt of mentioning my thought for many weeks, but although this video may very well be an actual working demonstration of the device, at the same time there is no guarantee that you are actually looking at the keyboard that is paired with the laptop. I mean it would be trivial to have a second keyboard nearby that is actually showing its stats on the computer screen.

I seem to remember reading that they did this demo live in front of some journalists.

But ... I just googled a bit and I can't find any links now.

Maybe it was just hearsay. Anybody?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on October 06, 2015, 10:11:48 am

Quote from: jippie on October 06, 2015, 08:33:56 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on October 05, 2015, 08:54:10 am

Quote

Batteriser is crafted from stainless steel at 0.1 mm thin to fit back neatly back into your devices’ battery compartments, and comes in 2 variations: for side-by-side batteries or batteries that are stacked, like in a keyboard.

Umm... when did this happen?

The

Quote

, and comes in 2 variations: for side-by-side batteries or batteries that are stacked, like in a keyboard

part disappeared from the batteriser website.

Lmao!
Brilliant! So are there two versions or not?

Does this mean the device they're supplying people is already know to not fit all devices? Possibly only fit half the devices?

So, 50% of the time you can use a batteriser in a device, that 20% of the time leaves 80% battery capacity remaining.

I like those odds!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 06, 2015, 10:21:35 am

Quote from: Galenbo on October 06, 2015, 08:21:48 am

Just because they did not show prototypes. And I did not see a working prototype in their videos.

You didn't want to see a working prototype in their videos, so you didn't  ::)

Quote

You mentioned the "reputable" "reporters" before. You did not say who they are, what they know, they did not make/show a report.
You just mentioned they said "it worked", without specifying how, where, why, conditions, report.

Here is one:
https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html (https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html)
I have spoken to him directly, he has seen it working.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 06, 2015, 10:24:34 am

Quote from: jippie on October 06, 2015, 08:33:56 am

part disappeared from the batteriser website.

Technical information appearing and disappearing from their website after someone mentions it on here could become a drinking game!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on October 06, 2015, 10:40:59 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 06, 2015, 10:24:34 am

Quote from: jippie on October 06, 2015, 08:33:56 am

part disappeared from the batteriser website.

Technical information appearing and disappearing from their website after someone mentions it on could become a drinking game!

Or they're testing version control tools.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on October 06, 2015, 11:11:06 am

Quote from: jippie on October 06, 2015, 10:40:59 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 06, 2015, 10:24:34 am

Quote from: jippie on October 06, 2015, 08:33:56 am

part disappeared from the batteriser website.

Technical information appearing and disappearing from their website after someone mentions it on could become a drinking game!

Or they're testing version control tools.

But not really good at?

Maybe it's not version control tools, but they test their backup solution, and it seems that it fail since the restored version is that older... ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on October 06, 2015, 11:30:17 am

Really bad choice of lighting in the second picture. Looks like the device on the right is burnt to a crisp :D

Bryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2015, 11:44:55 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 06, 2015, 10:21:35 am

https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html (https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html)
I have spoken to him directly, he has seen it working.

Yep. That was the one I'd lost...

Quote from: Yahoo

That eye-catching 800 percent improvement has been realized on some devices, Roohparvar says, but perhaps more importantly, his company has seen enough dramatic improvement in general to make the product worthwhile to regular consumers. “A golf GPS ran out in 2 hours,” he says. “We put the Batteriser on and it runs over 10 hours. That’s 5 times!”

He can't actually name the device that got 800% improvement?

Quote from: Yahoo

Yahoo Makers was only able to try out the Batteriser briefly in our offices.

After Roohparvar successfully demonstrated the Batteriser prototype in his Apple keyboard, we tried it out in a regular flashlight and in a Bluetooth mouse. This time, though, it failed to make contact and power the devices. Roohparvar thought the positive tip wasn’t quite lined up where it needed to be and said the production version would be much more resilient. He offered to give Yahoo Makers another unit to test soon.

They couldn't fiddle with it until it made contact...?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on October 06, 2015, 12:14:05 pm

I love conspiracy theories, so

Quote from: Fungus on October 06, 2015, 11:44:55 am

Quote from: Yahoo

Yahoo Makers was only able to try out the Batteriser briefly in our offices.

After Roohparvar successfully demonstrated the Batteriser prototype in his Apple keyboard, we tried it out in a regular flashlight and in a Bluetooth mouse. This time, though, it failed to make contact and power the devices. Roohparvar thought the positive tip wasn’t quite lined up where it needed to be and said the production version would be much more resilient. He offered to give Yahoo Makers another unit to test soon.

They couldn't fiddle with it until it made contact...?

this fits nicely with two keyboards and non functional product mockup scenario.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2015, 12:30:31 pm

Quote from: Rasz on October 06, 2015, 12:14:05 pm

I love conspiracy theories, so

Quote from: Fungus on October 06, 2015, 11:44:55 am

Quote from: Yahoo

we tried it out in a regular flashlight and in a Bluetooth mouse. This time, though, it failed to make contact and power the devices. Roohparvar thought the positive tip wasn’t quite lined up where it needed to be and said the production version would be much more resilient. He offered to give Yahoo Makers another unit to test soon.

They couldn't fiddle with it until it made contact...?

this fits nicely with two keyboards and non functional product mockup scenario.

You're right, it does...    :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on October 06, 2015, 02:17:21 pm

They must have a few functional AA sleeves, like the one sent to the FCC for testing.
Out of curiosity, I made one sleeve, without the PCB, from the metal slide on a 3 1/2" floppy disk. I think it is also made from a 0.1mm stainless steel sheet.
It feels sturdy enough for several uses, but the weak points will be the PCB anchor tabs and electrical contact.

Here is a suggested update for their site, in case they still read this thread:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on October 06, 2015, 02:27:50 pm

20% sounds more reasonable than 800%.

Of course they do this after they got their crowd funding money and after they got all the hyped press to give them free advert with the 800% claim.

If they started with the 20% I would doubt the media would have give them that much attention.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on October 06, 2015, 03:09:11 pm

Quote from: miguelvp on October 06, 2015, 02:27:50 pm

20% sounds more reasonable than 800%.

Of course they do this after they got their crowd funding money and after they got all the hyped press to give them free advert with the 800% claim.

If they started with the 20% I would doubt the media would have give them that much attention.

That wasn't a change by Batteroo, that was a "suggested" change by Wytnucls.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on October 06, 2015, 03:16:09 pm

I would modify that to saying....


Get the full 1.5 V out of your batteries for their entire usage life!^*

*Your batteries may not work for as long, but who cares since your device at 1.3 V^** is no good to you anyways if they drop to that level after only a few hours 

**1.3 V cutoff is only an estimate, and may vary to as low as 0.9 V per cell on some devices (hey we told you so, so don't complain... now go away and buy more of them, don't ask us any more questions)


:-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on October 06, 2015, 08:47:30 pm

Quote from: edy on October 06, 2015, 03:16:09 pm

I would modify that to saying....


Get the full 1.5 V out of your batteries for their entire usage life!^*

*Your batteries may not work for as long, but who cares since your device at 1.3 V^** is no good to you anyways if they drop to that level after only a few hours 

**1.3 V cutoff is only an estimate, and may vary to as low as 0.9 V per cell on some devices (hey we told you so, so don't complain... now go away and buy more of them, don't ask us any more questions)


:-DD

! 50% of the time, as the other 50% of the time, it won't physically fit in your device.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on October 06, 2015, 09:19:52 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on October 06, 2015, 03:41:08 am

Quote from: drussell on October 06, 2015, 02:40:39 am

Yes, slick and effective marketing BS, for sure....  Actual information or useful data and statistics, any technical information at all, anywhere?  Not so much!

That stuff doesn't matter when you are strictly (as I am) talking about their actual campaign. I can't see how anyone could argue it was not executed to almost flawless perfection.
...

I'd like to exclude the fan site from that.

I think it's been a group of young enthusiasts and relatives that did more harm than good. They weren't part of the flawless perfection. More a bunch of uncontrollable mob.
It may have sounded like a great idea. Some cousins and friends from uni that support the campaign - and then they go berserk :)

I'm a bit old fashioned fond of them though. Such an enthusiasm and rücksichtslos support warms my heart.
Many great careers are build on young foolish behavior - and learning from that...

edit: note to self: go to English grammar and speling course

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on October 06, 2015, 09:43:43 pm

Quote from: jippie on October 06, 2015, 09:08:48 am

Quote from: Fungus on October 06, 2015, 09:02:52 am

Quote from: Galenbo on October 06, 2015, 08:21:48 am

Just because they did not show prototypes. And I did not see a working prototype in their videos.

What about the Apple keyboard video?

I've been in doubt of mentioning my thought for many weeks, but although this video may very well be an actual working demonstration of the device, at the same time there is no guarantee that you are actually looking at the keyboard that is paired with the laptop. I mean it would be trivial to have a second keyboard nearby that is actually showing its stats on the computer screen.

This will work. The video will be real. A largely depleted battery can look good on a fuel gauge when there's a booster in between.
That doesn't mean that the keyboard will work longer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Stephan_T on October 06, 2015, 09:50:48 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on October 06, 2015, 10:24:34 am

Technical information appearing and disappearing from their website after someone mentions it on here could become a drinking game!

Here's your drinking game:

Quote

Tap into 100% pure drinking
water with Wasserhahn (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasserhahn)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Tap.png/220px-Tap.png)

Quote from: EEVblog on October 06, 2015, 03:41:08 am

Quote from: drussell on October 06, 2015, 02:40:39 am

Yes, slick and effective marketing BS, for sure....  Actual information or useful data and statistics, any technical information at all, anywhere?  Not so much!

That stuff doesn't matter when you are strictly (as I am) talking about their actual campaign. I can't see how anyone could argue it was not executed to almost flawless perfection.

If by "actual campaign" you mean their efforts to make the now called fan page YouTube channel to disappear from it, you seem to actually blind your self ;)
They are now linking to a Batteroo Vimeo account, but the dates on the videos show which one was first:
First monkey video on Youtube  Published on Jul 10, 2015 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv5eHRnjGC8)

Same video at Vimeo channel posted on July 25, 2015 at 7:30 PM (https://vimeo.com/134513378)

I guess, they will sooner or later delete the whole YouTube channel to bury the tracks of Nature Man, the Twins Teach the World ... and all the comments there. That Youtube channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A/videos) is not what I would call a part of a professional marketing campaign.

Actually it is an embarrassment for the VC company to have a client using such idiots to premier their video rebuttals of you debunking. The fact, that this channel is still existing today, shows you that the marketing campaign is anything but[t] flawless.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 06, 2015, 10:47:54 pm

Quote from: drussell on October 06, 2015, 03:09:11 pm

Quote from: miguelvp on October 06, 2015, 02:27:50 pm

20% sounds more reasonable than 800%.

Of course they do this after they got their crowd funding money and after they got all the hyped press to give them free advert with the 800% claim.

If they started with the 20% I would doubt the media would have give them that much attention.

That wasn't a change by Batteroo, that was a "suggested" change by Wytnucls.  :)

Yes, Wytnucls should have said that one was a joke. He had me checking their site seeing if that was true  :-[

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on October 07, 2015, 07:47:14 am

Quote from: Fungus on October 06, 2015, 09:02:52 am

Quote from: Galenbo on October 06, 2015, 08:21:48 am

Just because they did not show prototypes. And I did not see a working prototype in their videos.

What about the Apple keyboard video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4zjWynjEo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4zjWynjEo)

It must be the definition of "showing"

The few microseconds the metal shield is "shown" in that full-edited video means nothing to me.
The way it affects the fuel gage also means nothing. But at least they took the effort to turn the clock back to make it look right.

In contrast to what I would suspect on this kind of forums, there seem to be many people misleaded by those marketing videos.
Nobody familiar with tests where volts, amps, time,.. is shown? Like the videos about the microcurrent.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on October 07, 2015, 07:59:00 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 06, 2015, 10:21:35 am

Quote from: Galenbo on October 06, 2015, 08:21:48 am

You mentioned the "reputable" "reporters" before. You did not say who they are, what they know, they did not make/show a report.
You just mentioned they said "it worked", without specifying how, where, why, conditions, report.

Here is one:
https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html (https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html)
I have spoken to him directly, he has seen it working.

So Oliver Libaw Managing Editor saw the device. At least, if he tells the thruth, they indeed made a shell with the DC converter on it.
Happy to know the name of the only person who "saw" this till now.
What was his definition of "working"? The device fooling the fuel gage with flat batteries, or did he measure the extra time devices could run?

2nd part: What's reputable about him? doesn he know tech/science basics? Or does he hold a "big" position?
I'll do a little research about other articles he writes, somebody knows what type of guy this is?


Edit: LinkedIn says Master Philosophy
Editor Producer Content Management...

But as we saw before. LinkedIn profiles don't tell everything. Maybe there's a Engineering Master hidden behind it. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on October 07, 2015, 08:19:58 am

Regardless, UL and FCC testing means they have a working Batteriser. Like Dave said, building a working sleeve with off-the-shelf components is rather trivial.
Making one that performs to the level of their inflated claims is another matter.

PS: Apologies to the people I misled with the fake Batteroo banner. I changed the introduction to make it more obvious. I thought my shoddy work with MS Paint was self-evident.  :o

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on October 07, 2015, 08:28:27 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on October 07, 2015, 08:19:58 am

Regardless, UL and FCC testing means they have a working Batteriser.

Can be my lack of understanding english, but I understood that till now every UL testing announcement was fake, and there is no UL report.
Please correct me if you have other data.

Quote from: Wytnucls on October 07, 2015, 08:19:58 am

Like Dave said, building a working sleeve with off-the-shelf components is rather trivial.

Can be my lack of understanding english, but I understood that they were making a miniaturised version of the circuit to make it fit, and with existing components it wouldn't fit.
Please correct me if you have other data.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on October 07, 2015, 08:37:20 am

I contacted UL personnel who confirmed that the Batteriser reference number was genuine.
Existing DC to DC components fit easily in the space around the anode of the batteries. None can provide the claimed 1.5A output, but that's another story.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on October 07, 2015, 10:44:46 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 06, 2015, 10:24:34 am

Quote from: jippie on October 06, 2015, 08:33:56 am

part disappeared from the batteriser website.

Technical information appearing and disappearing from their website after someone mentions it on here could become a drinking game!

But you don't drink Dave? Or do you... has Batteroo convinced you to play Beer Pong (of sorts) ?
At least Wine? It's kind of like grape juice.

;-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on October 07, 2015, 11:00:59 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on October 07, 2015, 08:37:20 am

Existing DC to DC components fit easily in the space around the anode of the batteries. None can...

I understood in the beginning they were planning to make new components. Did I misunderstand that, or did they change what they say they plan?
Maybe I thought this based on comments like this, I don't remember if there were other comments or claims-->

Quote from: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 07:46:06 am

Actually, I want it to get funded so I can actually get one to check out the miniaturisation and how they are doing that.

Quote from: Wytnucls on October 07, 2015, 08:37:20 am

I contacted UL personnel who confirmed that the Batteriser reference number was genuine.

I must have missed that. Is more info about this in this tread or somewhere else?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on October 07, 2015, 11:09:04 am

There isn't much extra information about the actual test, as UL won't release it to the public. The only thing that is certain is that Batteroo had some test done at UL, under their supervision, with a genuine reference number.

The BatteRoohparvar brothers claim they spun their own DC to DC converter, but there is no evidence to back that up yet. They also did claim to have had to shrink components to make them fit on small AA/AAA PCBs, but again, tiny DC to DC converters and inductors have been available for some time, so that's probably all baloney.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on October 07, 2015, 11:15:11 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on October 07, 2015, 08:19:58 am

Regardless, UL and FCC testing means they have a working Batteriser.

Quote from: Wytnucls on October 07, 2015, 11:09:04 am

The only thing that is certain is that Batteroo had some test done at UL, under their supervision, with a genuine reference number.

So let's not assume it's a something that looks similar to what their renderings show.
It would be too naive to believe that from a serial-liar company.

Except, when, of course, a very-reputable-philosophy-reporter shows up and says he really did see it, that would totally change my idea.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on October 07, 2015, 11:29:58 am

The official FCC test report is proof enough that a batteriser was used in that instance. I don't know why you're stuck on renderings, there are plenty pictures of real AA sleeves around.
Anyway, in about a month, some could be available for testing, so have some patience.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on October 07, 2015, 12:40:01 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on October 07, 2015, 11:29:58 am

The official FCC test report is proof enough that a batteriser was used in that instance. I don't know why you're stuck on renderings, there are plenty pictures of real AA sleeves around.
Anyway, in about a month, some could be available for testing, so have some patience.

Yeah but all the FCC testing means is that it won't interfere with other devices by means of RF, or that it accepts RF from other device without causing ill effects. The FCC test does not mean it will do what batteriser claims.

On another note, anyone have that link that shows how many times their website has changed? My friend who designs websites is wondering if they really are changing it.  Dad


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 07, 2015, 12:47:02 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on October 07, 2015, 07:59:00 am

So Oliver Libaw Managing Editor saw the device. At least, if he tells the thruth

Galenbo, can you please stop all this conspiracy talk about how the real prototypes don't exist. You are the only one who thinks so, and harping on and on about it will just make this forum thread look like conspiracy central.
A lot of people (including media) come here to read the technical rebuttals, this stuff does not make the technical arguments look good.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 07, 2015, 12:47:44 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on October 07, 2015, 12:40:01 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on October 07, 2015, 11:29:58 am

The official FCC test report is proof enough that a batteriser was used in that instance. I don't know why you're stuck on renderings, there are plenty pictures of real AA sleeves around.
Anyway, in about a month, some could be available for testing, so have some patience.

Yeah but all the FCC testing means is that it won't interfere with other devices by means of RF, or that it accepts RF from other device without causing ill effects. The FCC test does not mean it will do what batteriser claims.

Whoosh!  :palm:

The point of the FCC testing is that it exists, not that it does what they claim.

NOBODY here believes it will do what they claim (and there's over 200 pages people saying so!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on October 07, 2015, 05:53:59 pm

Here is another product for Batteroo to come up with... specifically for 2 batteries in series connected side-by-side (3V total) like these examples:

(http://www.spikenzielabs.com/Catalog/images/medium/ck/CK-2AA-HOLDER_MED.jpg)

Like in this toy...

(http://chow.karmeng.my/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/BatteryCompartment_Opened.JPG)


Just create a PCB the shape of a large figure-8... it would not need to be a sleeve. It would just insert at one end of the battery compartment (up against the part that actually is wired to the circuitry of the device) and span both the NEGATIVE end of one battery and the POSITIVE end of the other battery. It would boost them to 3V constant voltage (as seen by the device). The other side of the battery compartment is simply a contact running across the batteries.

The question will be to identify which end is simply a bridge contact and which runs through the device. That could be checked easily with OHM measurement. The device could even have an OHM meter built in, if it finds no resistance it blinks a red light or something as it is on the wrong end of the 2-battery compartment.

So you slip in the figure-8 shaped PCB so it contacts BOTH + and - contacts on one end of the battery compartment (assuming there is no nasty plastic divider between them to get in the way) and you then slide your batteries in as usual. The 2 batteries will form their own circuit through your Batteriser on one side of the PCB, and coming out the other side of the PCB is your boosted 3 V constant. 

Maybe I should start a campaign...  ;D

Here is another link I found with something similar:

http://www.seanet.com/~karllunt/5vdcbatteries.html (http://www.seanet.com/~karllunt/5vdcbatteries.html)

(http://www.seanet.com/~karllunt/5vdcbattery_3.JPG)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on October 07, 2015, 08:50:42 pm

Quote from: edy on October 07, 2015, 05:53:59 pm

Here is another product for Batteroo to come up with... specifically for 2 batteries in series connected side-by-side (3V total) like these examples:

(http://www.spikenzielabs.com/Catalog/images/medium/ck/CK-2AA-HOLDER_MED.jpg)

Like in this toy...

(http://chow.karmeng.my/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/BatteryCompartment_Opened.JPG)


Just create a PCB the shape of a large figure-8... it would not need to be a sleeve. It would just insert at one end of the battery compartment (up against the part that actually is wired to the circuitry of the device) and span both the NEGATIVE end of one battery and the POSITIVE end of the other battery. It would boost them to 3V constant voltage (as seen by the device). The other side of the battery compartment is simply a contact running across the batteries.

The question will be to identify which end is simply a bridge contact and which runs through the device. That could be checked easily with OHM measurement. The device could even have an OHM meter built in, if it finds no resistance it blinks a red light or something as it is on the wrong end of the 2-battery compartment.

So you slip in the figure-8 shaped PCB so it contacts BOTH + and - contacts on one end of the battery compartment (assuming there is no nasty plastic divider between them to get in the way) and you then slide your batteries in as usual. The 2 batteries will form their own circuit through your Batteriser on one side of the PCB, and coming out the other side of the PCB is your boosted 3 V constant. 

Maybe I should start a campaign...  ;D

Here is another link I found with something similar:

http://www.seanet.com/~karllunt/5vdcbatteries.html (http://www.seanet.com/~karllunt/5vdcbatteries.html)

(http://www.seanet.com/~karllunt/5vdcbattery_3.JPG)

why? Thats just overcomplicating things, assuming the batteriser works ( >:D ) then two regular AA batterisers would work just fine. A figure 8 design would not work even in the image you posted because they often have plastic dividers between the batteries and it would also be more complicated for the end user to use

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on October 07, 2015, 08:59:01 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on October 07, 2015, 08:50:42 pm

why? Thats just overcomplicating things, assuming the batteriser works ( >:D ) then two regular AA batterisers would work just fine. A figure 8 design would not work even in the image you posted because they often have plastic dividers between the batteries and it would also be more complicated for the end user to use

Yes, I know.  :-DD   It was meant as a joke....  I am trying to expand the product line, just like they announced some Batterisers for side-by-side and reverse battery orientations, to handle the assumed issues of having boost converters in series... This eliminates having 2 Batteriser sleeves in series with each other. This would just apply one boost converter to the combination of both batteries in series, which would address this problem.

There are multiple issues with this idea just as there are with the sleeves, including the practicality of getting through the plastic divider between battery compartments, physically inserting it and getting it pushed against the spring of one side, and actually figuring out which side of the battery compartment is just a simple SHORT through to the battery terminals, and which side actually goes to the load.

All said tongue-in-cheek to jab this preposterous idea of having Batterisers for different configurations of parallel and series battery compartments which the average user would need to decypher.  :palm:

But in the interest of having fun, I will propose more Batteriser products so they can expand their line. Actually this idea would be easier and cheaper to make and would not require a metallic sleeve. And you could have 2 disc-shaped PCBs with a flexible wire interconnect so you could theoretically have it jump across the plastic divider.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on October 07, 2015, 09:09:41 pm

Quote from: edy on October 07, 2015, 08:59:01 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on October 07, 2015, 08:50:42 pm

why? Thats just overcomplicating things, assuming the batteriser works ( >:D ) then two regular AA batterisers would work just fine. A figure 8 design would not work even in the image you posted because they often have plastic dividers between the batteries and it would also be more complicated for the end user to use

Yes, I know.  :-DD   It was meant as a joke....  I am trying to expand the product line, just like they announced some Batterisers for side-by-side and reverse battery orientations, to handle the assumed issues of having boost converters in series... This eliminates having 2 Batteriser sleeves in series with each other. This would just apply one boost converter to the combination of both batteries in series, which would address this problem.

There are multiple issues with this idea just as there are with the sleeves, including the practicality of getting through the plastic divider between battery compartments, physically inserting it and getting it pushed against the spring of one side, and actually figuring out which side of the battery compartment is just a simple SHORT through to the battery terminals, and which side actually goes to the load.

All said tongue-in-cheek to jab this preposterous idea of having Batterisers for different configurations of parallel and series battery compartments which the average user would need to decypher.  :palm:

But in the interest of having fun, I will propose more Batteriser products so they can expand their line. Actually this idea would be easier and cheaper to make and would not require a metallic sleeve. And you could have 2 disc-shaped PCBs with a flexible wire interconnect so you could theoretically have it jump across the plastic divider.

lol, ok fair enough!

i am looking forward to getting my batterisers, if they dont work, i'll just blow them up  :bullshit:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on October 07, 2015, 09:45:44 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on October 07, 2015, 12:47:02 pm

Galenbo, can you please stop all this conspiracy talk about how the real prototypes don't exist. You are the only one who thinks so, and harping on and on about it will just make this forum thread look like conspiracy central.
A lot of people (including media) come here to read the technical rebuttals, this stuff does not make the technical arguments look good.

With all possible data we have and with all possible deduction, applied in a scientific way, there is simply not 1 reason to state a prototype "exists", "works" or "is shown",
but I will respect your decision to not talk about the hidden reasons you have to state the inverse.
I assume those reasons are "important" and "reputable", even to the level of starting to state other reasonable ideas "conspiracies"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on October 07, 2015, 10:13:54 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on October 07, 2015, 09:45:44 pm

With all possible data we have and with all possible deduction, applied in a scientific way, there is simply not 1 reason to state a prototype "exists", "works" or "is shown",
but I will respect your decision to not talk about the hidden reasons you have to state the inverse.
I assume those reasons are "important" and "reputable", even to the level of starting to state other reasonable ideas "conspiracies"

I think another reason to down-play the conspiracy theory and such is because with this thread being public and now attracting much more attention, especially from media, is that we want to continue to provide an objective and scientific analysis of what is going on engineering merits ONLY. This keeps it "professional" and immaculate in behaviour. We don't want to tarnish all the wonderful contributions made by members who have actually done vigorous testing and analysis in their own labs to disprove the claims.

I know we all have various ideas of what is going on with the Batteroo company and the Roohparvar's and V.C. funding and IndieGogo campaign and their fans and so on. We have seen and obtained plenty of proof about the shenanigans they are willing to go through to make this thing happen and silence any objective critical analysis and engineering opinion. Don't give them anything to latch on to... The conspiracy is that nothing exists and it is all a scam to make money from people, but we have no way to prove or disprove that at the moment. We will know soon enough, and if that is the case your claim will be vindicated.

Meanwhile, let's keep a high-brow and stand proud and above all keep scientific about it, and not provide the Batteriser fans with any reason to say "I told you so", especially if the Batteriser is released. Then what will happen is they will appear to have won the argument because it would have become "it is a scam and doesn't exist VS. it exists"... When the real argument is "it exists and claims 800% improvement in battery life VS. it exists and doesn't really help much at all, and may actually worsen device performance".

The reason we don't have demo media units in the wild is probably not because they don't exist, it is probably because they are embarassed to let someone independently pick it apart without them watching everything and scripting and controlling your ever movement with it. They know that if Dave got a hold of one, he would DaveCAD the PCB and do rigorous testing with it and have undeniable final proof of the actual performance before it reaches the main market, and possibly cause even more damage to their reputation.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on October 07, 2015, 10:17:29 pm

Quote from: edy on October 07, 2015, 10:13:54 pm

...
I think another reason to down-play the conspiracy theory and such is because with this thread being public and now attracting much more attention, especially from media, is that we want to continue to provide an objective and scientific analysis of what is going on engineering merits ONLY.
...

It's also the very subject that we are good at. Once we stray from that path, our expertise is a bit dodgy - being EEs and all :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on October 07, 2015, 10:18:39 pm

Underwriters Laboratories (UL) have seen and tested the device. Only to the limits of what Batteroo or however the company is called asked them to test.

After all UL does a lot of things other than certify devices:
http://ul.com/aboutul/what-we-do/ (http://ul.com/aboutul/what-we-do/)

There is no doubt the device exists.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on October 07, 2015, 10:28:54 pm

Quote from: edy on October 07, 2015, 10:13:54 pm

The reason we don't have demo media units in the wild is probably not because they don't exist, it is probably because they are embarassed to let someone independently pick it apart without them watching everything and scripting and controlling your ever movement with it. They know that if Dave got a hold of one, he would DaveCAD the PCB and do rigorous testing with it and have undeniable final proof of the actual performance before it reaches the main market, and possibly cause even more damage to their reputation.

of course, the experts can pull it apart but there will be many more 'users' who will sing it's praises

i am trying to think of an analogy but i can only think of Homoeopathy ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on October 07, 2015, 10:45:02 pm

Quote from: miguelvp on October 07, 2015, 10:18:39 pm

There is no doubt the device exists.

The boss decided that, so on this forum there really is no doubt anymore. No need to repeat it. But before, I preferred to think like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

Quote from: edy on October 07, 2015, 10:13:54 pm

Meanwhile, let's keep a high-brow and stand proud and above all keep scientific about it, and not provide the Batteriser fans with any reason to say "I told you so", especially if the Batteriser is released. Then what will happen is they will appear to have won the argument because it would have become "it is a scam and doesn't exist VS. it exists"... When the real argument is "it exists and claims 800% improvement in battery life VS. it exists and doesn't really help much at all, and may actually worsen device performance".

I don't agree with you, but respect the way you try to avoid false victory claims from them.
Meanwhile, I remember their victory quotes about internal resistance and power supply.

Quote from: edy on October 07, 2015, 10:13:54 pm

..., is that we want to continue to provide an objective and scientific analysis of what is going on engineering merits ONLY.

Ok. Understood. Back to the engineering-only questions:

What's your engineering idea about what was called miniaturisation?
Is it necessary to create new components to get a working device in a keyboard?
Is it possible to get an EMC filtered schematic with existing components around the positive pole in all existing batterisers?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 08, 2015, 08:09:59 am

Quote from: Galenbo on October 07, 2015, 09:45:44 pm

With all possible data we have and with all possible deduction, applied in a scientific way, there is simply not 1 reason to state a prototype "exists", "works" or "is shown","conspiracies"

There's no reason to think there ISN'T a prototype.

It's not magic, it's a DC voltage booster. It could be built at home by many of the people on this forum using off-the-shelf components (suitable parts have been listed earlier in this thread).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on October 08, 2015, 08:49:51 am

Quote from: Fungus on October 08, 2015, 08:09:59 am

...There's no reason to think there ISN'T a prototype.

Please stop it, like asked before, +you fail even in the most basic scientific methods.
Don't turn it around and expect rationality. There is no reason to think there ISN'T a God.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on October 08, 2015, 09:45:00 am

Quote from: Galenbo on October 08, 2015, 08:49:51 am

Quote from: Fungus on October 08, 2015, 08:09:59 am

...There's no reason to think there ISN'T a prototype.

Please stop it, like asked before, +you fail even in the most basic scientific methods.
Don't turn it around and expect rationality. There is no reason to think there ISN'T a God.

quite clearly there is a prototype... probably many of them.

The fact that UL labs tested a prototype, which is featured as a photo in the report and the UL test has been confirmed you must be deluded to think still it does not exist.

In this case there is evidence to prove a prototype does exist for the batteriser.

If you want to bring imaginary friends into it, i would say any good atheist should be willing to accept that god exists if the evidence is provided to prove it does, but we cant make a conclusion either way until there is some evidence... making a conclusion based on the LACK of evidence is just irrational.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on October 08, 2015, 09:55:35 am

There are prototype, that's for sure, what is clearly not sure is the "800%", "8x", "80%" and "1.3V" claims.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 08, 2015, 10:37:53 am

Please don't engage Galenbo any further on this issue, clearly he's not going to stop replying to people.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on October 08, 2015, 10:45:45 am

Hey guys, Dave asked Galenbo to stop talking about whether or not there is a prototype, so it's only fair that we as well stop offering rebuttals that technically he can't respond to.  Besides the whole argument comes down to each of our personal definitions of "prototype" anyway, so there is room for everyone to be correct.  Galenbo's definition of a prototype is a device that functions to its stated claims.  Others' definition is simply a device that fits into the necessary form factor, makes electrical contact, and is capable of fooling a battery meter and cutting down the run time of a GPS unit by 7 hours.  So let's just agree to disagree and drop it like Dave has asked.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on October 08, 2015, 12:01:16 pm

A huge bag of Bingo 1V0 to 5V0 boost converters just arrived from China (ordered via Amazon)  :-+

Now I can begin perfecting my test techniques ready for when I get some propper Batterisers to play with. I for one can't wait for the Batteriser to turn up on the shelf at my local Poundland  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 08, 2015, 12:04:12 pm

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on October 08, 2015, 12:01:16 pm

Now I can begin perfecting my test techniques ready for when I get some propper Batterisers to play with. I for one can't wait for the Batteriser to turn up on the shelf at my local Poundland  ;D

November is only 3 weeks away  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 08, 2015, 12:57:31 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on October 08, 2015, 10:37:53 am

Please don't engage Galenbo any further on this issue, clearly he's not going to stop replying to people.

Yep. He/she is now in the idiot bin after that last reply.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AF6LJ on October 08, 2015, 02:10:34 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on October 08, 2015, 12:04:12 pm

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on October 08, 2015, 12:01:16 pm

Now I can begin perfecting my test techniques ready for when I get some propper Batterisers to play with. I for one can't wait for the Batteriser to turn up on the shelf at my local Poundland  ;D

November is only 3 weeks away  ;D

It is coming all too quickly, I have one of those milestone birthdays that end in a zero in the first half of November....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on October 08, 2015, 02:25:48 pm

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on October 08, 2015, 12:01:16 pm

Now I can begin perfecting my test techniques ready for when I get some propper Batterisers to play with. I for one can't wait for the Batteriser to turn up on the shelf at my local Poundland  ;D

Maybe we could ask Mr Ashen to do a review of it in that case? :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AF6LJ on October 08, 2015, 03:24:20 pm

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on October 08, 2015, 12:01:16 pm

A huge bag of Bingo 1V0 to 5V0 boost converters just arrived from China (ordered via Amazon)  :-+

Now I can begin perfecting my test techniques ready for when I get some propper Batterisers to play with. I for one can't wait for the Batteriser to turn up on the shelf at my local Poundland  ;D

Don't forget the;
Battery in backwards test (battery in backwords in the batterizer.)
and
The Short Circuit test.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on October 08, 2015, 03:37:30 pm

Quote from: AF6LJ on October 08, 2015, 03:24:20 pm

Don't forget the;
Battery in backwards test (battery in backwords in the batterizer.)
and
The Short Circuit test.

The three year old nephew test is the killer.

I will need:

1x Three year old nephew
1x Electric Monkey (Probes III)
2x Batterisers AA model
2x Well discharged AA batteries

Method. Insert discharged AA batteries into Batteriser sleeves. Insert Batterised batteries into Electric Monkey. Switch on Electric Monkey and give to three year old nephew. Sit back and watch the mayhem if Electric Monkey fails to perform  :popcorn:

I have the three year old nephew, I have ordered an Electric Monkey, and I have some old AA batteries. All I need now are some Batterisers.  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 08, 2015, 04:02:12 pm

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on October 08, 2015, 12:01:16 pm

A huge bag of Bingo 1V0 to 5V0 boost converters just arrived from China (ordered via Amazon)  :-+

Now I can begin perfecting my test techniques ready for when I get some propper Batterisers to play with. I for one can't wait for the Batteriser to turn up on the shelf at my local Poundland  ;D

Boosting from 1V to 5V isn't the same as boosting from 1V to 1.5V.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Don Hills on October 08, 2015, 08:46:33 pm

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on October 08, 2015, 12:01:16 pm

A huge bag of Bingo 1V0 to 5V0 boost converters just arrived from China (ordered via Amazon)  :-+
...

They look like they're designed to have a USB socket soldered to them. I wonder what they were intended for - maybe emergency charging a cell phone from a 1.5 volt cell?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on October 09, 2015, 07:34:28 am

Quote from: Fungus on October 08, 2015, 04:02:12 pm

Boosting from 1V to 5V isn't the same as boosting from 1V to 1.5V.

The methodology of the test procedure is the same though. I'm actually testing my test procedures prior to getting some actual Batterisers (hope they make it to market) :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on October 09, 2015, 08:13:35 am

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on October 08, 2015, 03:37:30 pm

Quote from: AF6LJ on October 08, 2015, 03:24:20 pm

Don't forget the;
Battery in backwards test (battery in backwords in the batterizer.)
and
The Short Circuit test.

The three year old nephew test is the killer.

I will need:

1x Three year old nephew
1x Electric Monkey (Probes III)
2x Batterisers AA model
2x Well discharged AA batteries

Method. Insert discharged AA batteries into Batteriser sleeves. Insert Batterised batteries into Electric Monkey. Switch on Electric Monkey and give to three year old nephew. Sit back and watch the mayhem if Electric Monkey fails to perform  :popcorn:

I have the three year old nephew, I have ordered an Electric Monkey, and I have some old AA batteries. All I need now are some Batterisers.  ;D

Good that you already have the three year old nephew sorted out, the delivery time on those is ridiculous!

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 09, 2015, 08:23:24 am

Quote from: Fungus on October 08, 2015, 04:02:12 pm

Boosting from 1V to 5V isn't the same as boosting from 1V to 1.5V.

Likely they could be modified for 1.5V output though, or something under 2V anyway.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on October 09, 2015, 08:35:34 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 09, 2015, 08:23:24 am

Quote from: Fungus on October 08, 2015, 04:02:12 pm

Boosting from 1V to 5V isn't the same as boosting from 1V to 1.5V.

Likely they could be modified for 1.5V output though, or something under 2V anyway.

Yeah, I thought that too. There's not much to 'em. I'll reverse engineer the schematic when I get home from work (and I can also try out my new SMD rework station)  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on October 09, 2015, 08:38:38 am

With a shottky diode as the rectifier for the boost converter the efficiency will be quite low at 1.5V output voltage. Even without any further losses only 80% are possible. The whole circuit will be have 50-75% efficiency.
A good synchronous boost converter can reach 95%. At 5V output the 0.3V voltage drop on the diode only slightly affects the efficiency, but at lower voltages a synchronous rectifier greatly improves the efficiency.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on October 09, 2015, 10:12:23 am

LTspice demo circuits are available for small DC to DC converters (0.5~1.5V to 1.5V)
At Vin 1.0V, max Iout is about 150mA with Vout 1.5V, in agreement with the datasheet.
Demo boards are also available, but they are expensive ($75.00)  http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/demo-board-manual/dc1053A-EFGH.pdf (http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/demo-board-manual/dc1053A-EFGH.pdf)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=175430;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 10, 2015, 02:48:23 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on October 09, 2015, 08:23:24 am

Quote from: Fungus on October 08, 2015, 04:02:12 pm

Boosting from 1V to 5V isn't the same as boosting from 1V to 1.5V.

Likely they could be modified for 1.5V output though, or something under 2V anyway.

FWIW: The chip on those is likely to be a CE8301 (https://www.mpja.com/download/ce830.pdf) (from what I can find for chips marked "E50D").

If your boards are like mine they have the SOT-89-3 package which doesn't let you adjust the output.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on October 11, 2015, 05:45:26 am

Their "Pre-Order" button on the Batteriser.com website no longer links to IndieGogo. It opens up an e-Commerce widget that lets you order items (see attached photos). Is this any different from the IndieGogo costs? 8 Batterisers for $20... with shipping to Canada it says $30. That's $3.75 a piece. Also they continue to claim November 2015 estimated delivery.

Meanwhile, have a look at the Amazon listing I show as well in the photo.... 8 AA's and charger, same deal for about the same price, but it is rechargeable, meaning I get way more usage out of these batteries than slapping Batterisers on alkalines. And those are not the cheapest options either.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004H2VUUQ?keywords=8%20rechargeable%20aa%20batteries&qid=1444542872&ref_=sr_1_31&sr=8-31 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004H2VUUQ?keywords=8%20rechargeable%20aa%20batteries&qid=1444542872&ref_=sr_1_31&sr=8-31)

There is also EBL brand which I am not sure about:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00M2RA8XS?keywords=8%20rechargeable%20aa%20batteries&qid=1444542019&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00M2RA8XS?keywords=8%20rechargeable%20aa%20batteries&qid=1444542019&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on October 13, 2015, 07:59:01 am

So we'll all have our Batterisers before Christmas? ;-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on October 13, 2015, 08:08:25 am

Quote from: Halcyon on October 13, 2015, 07:59:01 am

So we'll all have our Batterisers before Christmas? ;-)

I'm already practicing a theatre performance.

"How to behave if a family member good-intentions-nitwit gives it to me as a present"

...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ian.M on October 14, 2015, 09:50:45 am

Well the FIRST recipient can thank them nicely and post it to Dave for a teardown!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on October 14, 2015, 10:34:03 am

Am I the only one which see this scenario?

One mailbag monday in december:
Dave receive 50% of Batterisers production  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 14, 2015, 01:04:05 pm

Quote from: Barny on October 14, 2015, 10:34:03 am

Am I the only one which see this scenario?
One mailbag monday in december:
Dave receive 50% of Batterisers production  :-DD

I wouldn't bet against that!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ian.M on October 14, 2015, 01:25:32 pm

I would, as in most cases the clueless gift buyer wont give it to the EE recipient till Christmas.    OTOH I wouldn't bet against 50% of the packages on a Feb 2016 mailbag containing Batterizers!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on October 14, 2015, 01:30:33 pm

It's gone awfully quiet on the IGG Batteriser website.
9 days and no updates and no new comments since 10 days.
Unless they have been removed by Batteriser.

Hmmm... Maybe they're quite busy with the production.
Roughly one month to go! Let's wait and see...

 :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on October 14, 2015, 01:53:32 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on October 14, 2015, 01:04:05 pm

I wouldn't bet against that!

Will they end up being left 8x longer on the shelf behind you?

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on October 14, 2015, 07:43:44 pm

Seems like the illustrious Warren Flick may have jumped ship?

(http://i.imgur.com/BsOc6o3.jpg)
-  http://www.changedetection.com/log/batteriser/index_log2.html (http://www.changedetection.com/log/batteriser/index_log2.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on October 15, 2015, 03:13:33 am

Quote from: samgab on October 14, 2015, 07:43:44 pm

Seems like the illustrious Warren Flick may have jumped ship?

(http://i.imgur.com/BsOc6o3.jpg)
- http://63.249.66.211/comparecache.html (http://63.249.66.211/comparecache.html)

What do they need Warren Flick for now that they have no retail channels besides their own and an Amazon order referral service? 

Or, just maybe Warren didn't need them either...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2015, 03:54:36 am

So they hired a buddy from Flextronics by the sounds of it.
Interesting that Warren Flick is gone, he was their big ticket business name.
So maybe they have either made the big retail sale they were hoping for and his job is done, or the wheels have fallen off the billy cart.
Guys like Flick usually don't leave after such as short time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on October 15, 2015, 04:20:28 am

One has to wonder why someone needs a Director of Product Development for a product that is already developed and desperately needs to be manufactured tout de suite.

They need not a manufacturing engineer, nor a logistics person, nor a purchasing agent, but rather someone with extensive experience in ... wait for it ... PCB design. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2015, 04:29:45 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on October 15, 2015, 04:20:28 am

One has to wonder why someone needs a Director of Product Development for a product that is already developed and desperately needs to be manufactured tout de suite.
They need not a manufacturing engineer, nor a logistics person, nor a purchasing agent, but rather someone with extensive experience in ... wait for it ... PCB design.

But if he has ties with Flextronics, who I'm lead to believe they are getting to manufacture it, then that makes some sense.

Still no updates.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on October 15, 2015, 04:50:10 am

Quote

Flick usually don't leave after such as short time.

I bet he watched their videos. :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on October 15, 2015, 05:05:03 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 15, 2015, 04:29:45 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on October 15, 2015, 04:20:28 am

One has to wonder why someone needs a Director of Product Development for a product that is already developed and desperately needs to be manufactured tout de suite.
They need not a manufacturing engineer, nor a logistics person, nor a purchasing agent, but rather someone with extensive experience in ... wait for it ... PCB design.

But if he has ties with Flextronics, who I'm lead to believe they are getting to manufacture it, then that makes some sense.

Still no updates.

Flex may well still be the manufacturer, but certainly not at the original price.  Flex normally wouldn't even have answered Batteroo's phone call, save for Bob being an insider.  From what I've seen, no one, except for a third or fourth tier CM would even consider something with this little dollar volume.  It's only virtue is that it is simple to manufacture as long as one assumes no liability for the PCB to clip solder joint. 

Batteroo is the account that the CM assigns to their lowest seniority project manager.  All work + no profit = no bonus.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 15, 2015, 06:17:24 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 15, 2015, 04:29:45 am

But if he has ties with Flextronics, who I'm lead to believe they are getting to manufacture it, then that makes some sense.

Probably figured out that there's no profit in the initial production run and that there's no future in something that:

a) Doesn't work as claimed
and
b) Is easy to measure, even for ordinary people

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on October 15, 2015, 07:52:33 am

Quote from: Fungus on October 15, 2015, 06:17:24 am

Probably figured out that there's no profit in the initial production run and that there's no future in something that:

a) Doesn't work as claimed
and
b) Is easy to measure, even for ordinary people

c) is 'burned', because subject to controversy on social media and tech channels.

The first public event for such products should be the items being in the store.
Promo videos should be ready, but released only that same day, so debunking can only take effect after a good month of sales.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on October 21, 2015, 11:47:48 pm

November is creeping up fast, and still not a peep out of batteriser...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on October 22, 2015, 12:53:51 am

Strangely their press releases seemed to still be going out after the campaign.

:bullshit: :bullshit: :bullshit: ---- WARNING BS FOLLOWS ---- :bullshit: :bullshit: :bullshit:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/independent-test-shows-garmin-gps-with-batteriser-sleeve-ran-nearly-six-times-longer-under-the-same-test-condition-300159304.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/independent-test-shows-garmin-gps-with-batteriser-sleeve-ran-nearly-six-times-longer-under-the-same-test-condition-300159304.html)
http://www.consumerelectronicsnet.com/article/Independent-Test-Shows-Garmin-GPS-with-Batteriser-Sleeve-ran-nearly-six-times-longer-under-the-same-test-condition-4115282 (http://www.consumerelectronicsnet.com/article/Independent-Test-Shows-Garmin-GPS-with-Batteriser-Sleeve-ran-nearly-six-times-longer-under-the-same-test-condition-4115282)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 22, 2015, 03:51:46 am

Quote from: Kean on October 22, 2015, 12:53:51 am

Strangely their press releases seemed to still be going out after the campaign.
:bullshit: :bullshit: :bullshit: ---- WARNING BS FOLLOWS ---- :bullshit: :bullshit: :bullshit:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/independent-test-shows-garmin-gps-with-batteriser-sleeve-ran-nearly-six-times-longer-under-the-same-test-condition-300159304.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/independent-test-shows-garmin-gps-with-batteriser-sleeve-ran-nearly-six-times-longer-under-the-same-test-condition-300159304.html)
http://www.consumerelectronicsnet.com/article/Independent-Test-Shows-Garmin-GPS-with-Batteriser-Sleeve-ran-nearly-six-times-longer-under-the-same-test-condition-4115282 (http://www.consumerelectronicsnet.com/article/Independent-Test-Shows-Garmin-GPS-with-Batteriser-Sleeve-ran-nearly-six-times-longer-under-the-same-test-condition-4115282)

 |O It's not a true independent test to replicate results. UL was very careful to say that in their "report". Everything, including the DUT, equipment, and procedure was supplied by Batteriser and follow to the letter without question by UL.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on October 22, 2015, 03:53:41 am

Nice to see that at least a few things in their marketing are still consistent...

Quote

Batteriser can extend the life of disposable alkaline batteries by up to 800 percent, saving consumers money and saving landfills from toxic battery waste which would result in soil contamination and a laundry list of negative environmental impacts. Batteriser has been tested and proven compatible on a variety of battery-operated home and office gadgets, including wireless keyboards, noise-cancelling headphones, Xbox and Wii controllers, TV remote controls, walkie-talkies, digital scales, electric toothbrushes, toys, portable radios, flashlights, and blood pressure monitors. The company was cofounded by Bob Roohparvar Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering, who holds more than 20 patents in his 30-year career in power management, semiconductors, and consumer products and Frankie Roohparvar well known executive who holds more than 500 patents.

That is a very concise description of the basic premise...   

Can't wait to see real world use on an actual unit....  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 22, 2015, 03:54:16 am

Quote from: 5ky on October 21, 2015, 11:47:48 pm

November is creeping up fast, and still not a peep out of batteriser...

Nor is anyone bothering to ask for updates on the campaign comments  :-//
Would be interesting to see is Batterieser volunteer an update without people screaming...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on October 22, 2015, 04:00:08 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 22, 2015, 03:51:46 am

|O It's not a true independent test to replicate results. UL was very careful to say that in their "report". Everything, including the DUT, equipment, and procedure was supplied by Batteriser and follow to the letter without question by UL.

Yes, I also noticed that and thought it interesting that they are seemingly still trying to play up their bogus test results as being independent while also carefully including the true nature on the sly....

Quote

...was tested in a Garmin GPS (with the same test procedure that had been performed in Batteroo's lab) by global independent safety science company UL.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 22, 2015, 05:46:43 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 22, 2015, 03:54:16 am

Quote from: 5ky on October 21, 2015, 11:47:48 pm

November is creeping up fast, and still not a peep out of batteriser...

Nor is anyone bothering to ask for updates on the campaign comments  :-//

Many of the 'commenters' were obvious sock puppets.

Quote from: drussell on October 22, 2015, 04:00:08 am

Yes, I also noticed that and thought it interesting that they are seemingly still trying to play up their bogus test results as being independent while also carefully including the true nature on the sly....

The whole point of doing the UL test was to be able to play it up, so agian ... not surprising at all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on October 22, 2015, 10:50:32 am

Quote

Batteriser can extend the life of disposable alkaline batteries by up to 800 percent, saving consumers money and saving landfills from toxic battery waste which would result in soil contamination and a laundry list of negative environmental impacts. Batteriser has been tested and proven compatible on a variety of battery-operated home and office gadgets, including wireless keyboards, noise-cancelling headphones, Xbox and Wii controllers, TV remote controls, walkie-talkies, digital scales, electric toothbrushes, toys, portable radios, flashlights, and blood pressure monitors. The company was cofounded by Bob Roohparvar Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering, who holds more than 20 patents in his 30-year career in power management, semiconductors, and consumer products and Frankie Roohparvar well known executive who holds more than 500 patents.

Question : Do these battery sleeves require some other type of certification or approval before being used in medical devices ? (see quote above), or are there blood pressure monitors that are just a home DIY type of thing ?

Thank the almighty that hearing aids, pacemakers and other important stuff doesn't run on regular batteries, some people could be in a bit of strife otherwise.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on October 22, 2015, 11:19:36 am

Some take 2 AA/AAA batteries. No special certification required.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71H-0Qmc63L._SY355_.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on October 22, 2015, 11:50:58 am

What if batteries leak after being drained of every last watt hour of capacity by any batterisers fitted, and as a result 'gunk up' your nice shiny product?

This is Duracell's guarantee regarding battery defects: http://www.duracell.com/en-us/guarantee (http://www.duracell.com/en-us/guarantee)  I assume other manufacturers also have something similar.

"Should any device be damaged due to a battery defect, we will repair or replace it at our option. Leaking battery and damaged device must be provided as proof of claim. Duracell may deny claims of damage caused by misuse or modification of the batteries or device."

I suspect Duracell (and other battery manufacturers) will class the fitting of a batteriser sleeve as a "misuse or modification" and refuse any compensation due to leaky batteries which they will claim was caused by the batteriser.

What guarantees (if any) do batteriser provide, regarding their product causing damage to the suckers users shiny products  ;D

The lawyers will love this one  :box:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on October 22, 2015, 11:59:00 am

@Dave.

What happened to the slow discharge test of the batteries? Did I missed it?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: crispy_tofu on October 22, 2015, 12:03:55 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on October 22, 2015, 11:19:36 am

Some take 2 AA/AAA batteries. No special certification required.

Hmmm... even the expensive ~$1200 ambulatory blood pressure monitors use AA batteries...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LifeSource-TM-2430-Ambulatory-Blood-Pressure-Monitor-/111523061325?hash=item19f74ade4d:g:nvQAAOSwMmBV6ZOO (http://www.ebay.com/itm/LifeSource-TM-2430-Ambulatory-Blood-Pressure-Monitor-/111523061325?hash=item19f74ade4d:g:nvQAAOSwMmBV6ZOO)

Looking at the variety of blood pressure monitors, most of them use AA/AAA batteries and/or an AC adapter.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 22, 2015, 12:53:00 pm

Quote from: firewalker on October 22, 2015, 11:59:00 am

@Dave.
What happened to the slow discharge test of the batteries? Did I missed it?

I got data for 50mW, 20mW and 10mW, but my meter won't support greater length data logging, so I need to set up a different system for that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 23, 2015, 01:35:05 am

Update!

Quote

Greetings Batteriser Supporters!
We're getting closer to the final production of the Batteriser sleeves. Here's a sneak peek at our progress, plus some cool photos hot off the press!

The form factor of the sleeve has been finalized...meaning it's optimized to be strong enough for reuse, but thin enough to fit inside most battery compartments.

We've spent several months finalizing the top contact of the Batteriser. The challenge was to engineer the top contact to be flexible enough to allow for both parallel and in-line battery compartments. In earlier prototypes, we had issues with contacts' durability, but this new generation uses a different material that is much stronger.

The Rose-gold is even prettier in person! This serves as a non-conductive protective coating over the Batteriser to prevent shorting. Originally, we were considering a clear-coat over the Batteriser, but opted for the Rose-gold to ensure an even coating during production for quality control purposes. We're thrilled with the look.

We have also finalized the protective cases (recyclable material) that your Batterisers will be shipping in. These reusable cases safely store your Batterisers when not in use and allow for easy transport. We wanted to design a case that you could easily throw in your bag or purse and bring on an airplane.

The next step is to receive the final, next generation optimized IC (integrated circuit) from manufacturing and start assembling. The early prototype that we took to PC World wasn't optimized yet for high-drain devices. This new IC does exactly that, which is a huge plus for devices like digital cameras, RC cars, and other high-drain devices. 
Thank you again for your support! We couldn't be more excited to make Batteriser a reality!
Regards,
Bob and the Batteriser Team

So after what, 4 years of development?, only at the 11th hour are they spinning a new chip that is suitable for high drain devices?  :-//
What was all their claims about 1.5A output capability then if they had never really tested it properly?
The odds of this thing being decently efficient over the whole performance envelope in the size available has to be very low.
What are the odds of something going wrong with the new IC?
How can they test and qualify a new IC, presumably make PCB changes as well?, ramp up production, and get these things shipped in a month?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: crispy_tofu on October 23, 2015, 01:47:36 am

My guess is that it'll be 'delayed' for half a year.  :-DD :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on October 23, 2015, 01:53:19 am

They wrote it is optimized for high drain devices, probably the old chip worked already for 1.5 A, but not as efficient. Of course, nearly all devices will run longer without the batteriser, maybe they are desperately trying to maximize the efficiency to minimize customer complaints.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 23, 2015, 02:15:14 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on October 23, 2015, 01:53:19 am

They wrote it is optimized for high drain devices, probably the old chip worked already for 1.5 A, but not as efficient. Of course, nearly all devices will run longer without the batteriser, maybe they are desperately trying to maximize the efficiency to minimize customer complaints.

So why not make it efficient at 1.5A in the first place?
Seems like a last minute snafu.
And can you just make it magically better without compromising efficiency at the lower end?
This is the sort of basic stuff you are supposed figure out in the initial prototype stage before you go public with the song and dance routine.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on October 23, 2015, 02:24:14 am

Dave will need to put his batteriser in his Fail button. Seems appropriate doesn't it?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on October 23, 2015, 03:03:29 am

I think they're very well aware of their bullshit claims, and probably had a chat with the VC board and their legal team to discuss potential fallout, and they probably decided to do some tweaking (IE: higher current model) to lessen the uproar from consumers after they realize their 80% claim was a flat out lie.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on October 23, 2015, 03:26:33 am

I'm just speculating now but one theory I have is that their real product is not the batteriser but the IC. If that's the case, the batteriser is only an attempt to create initial demand for the chip in order to get the ball rolling.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 23, 2015, 03:27:40 am

Quote from: WN1X on October 23, 2015, 02:24:14 am

Dave will need to put his batteriser in his Fail button. Seems appropriate doesn't it?

With a robot actuator to continually push it!  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bills on October 23, 2015, 03:30:46 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 23, 2015, 03:27:40 am

Quote from: WN1X on October 23, 2015, 02:24:14 am

Dave will need to put his batteriser in his Fail button. Seems appropriate doesn't it?

With a robot actuator to continually push it!  :-+

Please don't make a video of that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on October 23, 2015, 03:47:43 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 23, 2015, 01:35:05 am

Update!

Quote

Greetings Batteriser Supporters!
We're getting closer to the final production of the Batteriser sleeves. Here's a sneak peek at our progress, plus some cool photos hot off the press!

The form factor of the sleeve has been finalized...meaning it's optimized to be strong enough for reuse, but thin enough to fit inside most battery compartments.

We've spent several months finalizing the top contact of the Batteriser. The challenge was to engineer the top contact to be flexible enough to allow for both parallel and in-line battery compartments. In earlier prototypes, we had issues with contacts' durability, but this new generation uses a different material that is much stronger.

The Rose-gold is even prettier in person! This serves as a non-conductive protective coating over the Batteriser to prevent shorting. Originally, we were considering a clear-coat over the Batteriser, but opted for the Rose-gold to ensure an even coating during production for quality control purposes. We're thrilled with the look.

We have also finalized the protective cases (recyclable material) that your Batterisers will be shipping in. These reusable cases safely store your Batterisers when not in use and allow for easy transport. We wanted to design a case that you could easily throw in your bag or purse and bring on an airplane.

The next step is to receive the final, next generation optimized IC (integrated circuit) from manufacturing and start assembling. The early prototype that we took to PC World wasn't optimized yet for high-drain devices. This new IC does exactly that, which is a huge plus for devices like digital cameras, RC cars, and other high-drain devices. 
Thank you again for your support! We couldn't be more excited to make Batteriser a reality!
Regards,
Bob and the Batteriser Team

So after what, 4 years of development?, only at the 11th hour are they spinning a new chip that is suitable for high drain devices?  :-//
What was all their claims about 1.5A output capability then if they had never really tested it properly?
The odds of this thing being decently efficient over the whole performance envelope in the size available has to be very low.
What are the odds of something going wrong with the new IC?
How can they test and qualify a new IC, presumably make PCB changes as well?, ramp up production, and get these things shipped in a month?

Whoa!  Back up the truck, Brothers Roohparvar.

This means you have to re-submit for FCC verification, UL, CE, CSA, the whole thing. 

And if your device wasn't optimized for high drain devices, what the heck was going on with the GPS deal? 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 23, 2015, 03:51:30 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on October 23, 2015, 03:47:43 am

Whoa!  Back up the truck, Brothers Roohparvar.
This means you have to re-submit for FCC verification, UL, CE, CSA, the whole thing. 

Yup.
Maybe someone should point that out to them on the Indiegogo comments, just in case they aren't aware.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on October 23, 2015, 04:23:16 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 23, 2015, 03:51:30 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on October 23, 2015, 03:47:43 am

Whoa!  Back up the truck, Brothers Roohparvar.
This means you have to re-submit for FCC verification, UL, CE, CSA, the whole thing. 

Yup.
Maybe someone should point that out to them on the Indiegogo comments, just in case they aren't aware.

I'd bother if not for the fact that two ex-Flextronics engineers and one ex-Micron engineer ought to know the rules by now and can surely afford to do the job properly.   ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on October 23, 2015, 06:41:30 am

Physical size is also a problem. There isn't much real estate on top of a AAA battery. Existing ICs and inductors capable of generating 1.5A at 1.5MHz with 80-90% efficiency throughout the range are much larger and wouldn't fit. Switching to ICs running at 3MHz may help some.
Cost and time don't seem to be on their side.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on October 23, 2015, 08:06:37 am

Quote

...The next step is to receive the final, next generation optimized IC (integrated circuit) from manufacturing and start assembling. ...This new IC does

What is the minimum and average time you guys expierienced between:

-have a schematic for the IC
and
-having the IC manufactured
and
-having the pcb containing the IC approved CE/ EMC/UL/...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 23, 2015, 08:43:50 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on October 23, 2015, 04:23:16 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 23, 2015, 03:51:30 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on October 23, 2015, 03:47:43 am

Whoa!  Back up the truck, Brothers Roohparvar.
This means you have to re-submit for FCC verification, UL, CE, CSA, the whole thing. 

Yup.
Maybe someone should point that out to them on the Indiegogo comments, just in case they aren't aware.

I'd bother if not for the fact that two ex-Flextronics engineers and one ex-Micron engineer ought to know the rules by now and can surely afford to do the job properly.   ::)

Sure, *we* know that, _they_ know that, but their IndieGoGo backers don't.

Plus: The reply might be funny.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 23, 2015, 09:35:08 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on October 23, 2015, 06:41:30 am

Physical size is also a problem. There isn't much real estate on top of a AAA battery.

That's the other thing, no mention or photos of the other sizes, just the AA's.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 23, 2015, 09:41:08 am

Technically speaking: They still have about five weeks before "November" runs out.

It *might* be possible.

They certainly managed to get FCC approval in three or four days the first time somebody mentioned it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on October 23, 2015, 09:54:57 am

It is the first time they admit that not everything is rosy-gold with the batteriser. It could be the beginning of the slippery slope. Delivery deadline seems impossible to achieve (15th November).
Can they afford to provide any kind of warranty for their flimsy product?
If the first release is a dud, they will have to run for the hills. The pressure is on.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 23, 2015, 10:01:57 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on October 23, 2015, 09:54:57 am

Delivery deadline seems impossible to achieve (15th November).

Did they say "15th"? I only saw "November".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on October 23, 2015, 10:03:19 am

I'll double-check, but that's what I remember.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: crispy_tofu on October 23, 2015, 10:29:11 am

Looking on Google, there aren't any references to November 15 and Batteriser.  :-//

EDIT: On the Indiegogo page, it says November 15. Very vague... (considering that 15 is probably the year)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on October 23, 2015, 10:34:06 am

The official release date is November 2015 on IGG. What I remember may have been come from some back and forth messages on one of their different sites. Couldn't be bothered going through all that again to find it.
End of November is still acceptable, so let's stick to that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on October 23, 2015, 11:01:51 am

How are those "sneak peak" photos any different to anything they've already shown?

Why are they showing four units, and not the 100,000 or something they're meant to be making? Why are there no actual production pictures of anything?

I like how they're now saying they're thin enough to fit in MOST battery compartments, where was this statement before they took peoples money?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on October 23, 2015, 11:34:14 am

Quote from: Fungus on October 23, 2015, 09:41:08 am

They certainly managed to get FCC approval in three or four days the first time somebody mentioned it.

Well, at least what they mean was FCC approval. The 1k resistor load for testing was a bad joke. When it is used in a device which draws 1.5 A and which is sensitive to EMC, they might get problems.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on October 23, 2015, 11:52:45 am

Quote from: Galenbo on October 23, 2015, 08:06:37 am

Quote

...The next step is to receive the final, next generation optimized IC (integrated circuit) from manufacturing and start assembling. ...This new IC does

What is the minimum and average time you guys expierienced between:

-have a schematic for the IC
and
-having the IC manufactured
and
-having the pcb containing the IC approved CE/ EMC/UL/...

It seems that the first two are already done, even if the manufacturing isn't on full production now, but in general I would says months for all of this. Designing even simple things takes a lot of time so making your own asic/chip/whatever like they say to do (did they just select another on the shelf DC2DC chip in fact?) take even more time especially because it NEVER work on the first time, and they don't says that their chip has been tested. Just "receiving the final" IC so that an engineering sample, they would need much more round of test before the chip is "final" (and a chip is never final anyway, look at all the errata sheet on nearly all components)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on October 23, 2015, 12:45:20 pm

The photos is just blanks, right? No actual pcb attached.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on October 23, 2015, 01:03:20 pm

The three pictures on the update looks like 3D rendering :/

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 23, 2015, 01:35:34 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on October 23, 2015, 11:01:51 am

Why are they showing four units, and not the 100,000 or something they're meant to be making? Why are there no actual production pictures of anything?

Yep. If it was me I'd be posting pics of the crates full of shiny-new batterisers, not the same old rendered image they've been posting for months.
.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on October 23, 2015, 01:41:56 pm

Quote from: Fungus on October 23, 2015, 01:35:34 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on October 23, 2015, 11:01:51 am

Why are they showing four units, and not the 100,000 or something they're meant to be making? Why are there no actual production pictures of anything?

Yep. If it was me I'd be posting pics of the crates full of shiny-new batterisers, not the same old rendered image they've been posting for months.
.

If it was me, I'd post pictures of everything I had!... Oh wait, that's what they did :)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on October 23, 2015, 03:35:13 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on October 23, 2015, 01:35:05 am

So after what, 4 years of development?, only at the 11th hour are they spinning a new chip that is suitable for high drain devices?  :-//
What was all their claims about 1.5A output capability then if they had never really tested it properly?
The odds of this thing being decently efficient over the whole performance envelope in the size available has to be very low.
What are the odds of something going wrong with the new IC?
How can they test and qualify a new IC, presumably make PCB changes as well?, ramp up production, and get these things shipped in a month?
...
So why not make it efficient at 1.5A in the first place?
Seems like a last minute snafu.

I don't think that they've ever really tested much of anything, otherwise they would probably have been able to show some kind of specifications rather than the vague moving targets we've seen.  I believe they're still trying to engineer something that will actually work well enough to fool at least some people but that the few bits of description and things like 1.5A current capability are more of a design goal than any sort of measurement or specification of the finished product.

Quote from: EEVblog on October 23, 2015, 02:15:14 am

And can you just make it magically better without compromising efficiency at the lower end?
This is the sort of basic stuff you are supposed figure out in the initial prototype stage before you go public with the song and dance routine.

Quote from: apis on October 23, 2015, 03:26:33 am

I'm just speculating now but one theory I have is that their real product is not the batteriser but the IC.

Quote from: Wytnucls on October 23, 2015, 06:41:30 am

Physical size is also a problem. There isn't much real estate on top of a AAA battery. Existing ICs and inductors capable of generating 1.5A at 1.5MHz with 80-90% efficiency throughout the range are much larger and wouldn't fit. Switching to ICs running at 3MHz may help some.

Quote from: Godzil on October 23, 2015, 11:52:45 am

Designing even simple things takes a lot of time so making your own asic/chip/whatever like they say to do (did they just select another on the shelf DC2DC chip in fact?) take even more time especially because it NEVER work on the first time, and they don't says that their chip has been tested. Just "receiving the final" IC so that an engineering sample, they would need much more round of test before the chip is "final" (and a chip is never final anyway, look at all the errata sheet on nearly all components)

My assumption has always been that they aren't really designing their own IC from scratch but rather just a customized version of an existing off-the-shelf DC-DC converter chip.  My guess would be a standard part that has been modified to run at a slightly higher frequency (could be as simple as a resistor or cap change on the die) and perhaps includes a beefier output MOSFET or whatever.  Oh, and of course custom part number silkscreened on top.  (Perhaps ONLY that!)  :)

I seriously doubt they have actually designed a breakthrough, fundamentally different DC-DC converter topology or novel circuit design of any kind.  I fully expect the first person that shaves open one of their chips will find it to be identical to or (perhaps a mildly tweaked version of a commercially available chip from one of the major manufacturers.

:popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on October 23, 2015, 03:51:36 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on October 23, 2015, 11:34:14 am

Quote from: Fungus on October 23, 2015, 09:41:08 am

They certainly managed to get FCC approval in three or four days the first time somebody mentioned it.

Well, at least what they mean was FCC approval. The 1k resistor load for testing was a bad joke. When it is used in a device which draws 1.5 A and which is sensitive to EMC, they might get problems.

For what it's worth, based on my reading of the FCC regs, this device falls under validation only, which means it must be tested (and pass), but does not need FCC approval per se. The testing documentation must be kept on file and must be available upon immediate request from the FCC.

If they retest at 1.5mA and claim a 1.5A device rating, I'm fairly certain someone will file a complaint with the FCC, which will initiate a records request, and quickly reveal how Batteroo is gaming the validation process. 

The FCC will not be amused.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on October 23, 2015, 03:56:58 pm

I was watching randomly dave's videos I haven't watch yet and went on the number 320, a mailbag.

And what is the first thing dave found in the first parcel?

"AAsaver" to use "dead" AA battery to use old "dead" battery for powering a breadboard or a simple flash light...
Don't know why but it remind me about something we discuss in a more recent topic..... :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ai9PLpbGIE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ai9PLpbGIE)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on October 24, 2015, 02:31:30 pm

Quote from: Godzil on October 23, 2015, 11:52:45 am

Quote from: Galenbo on October 23, 2015, 08:06:37 am

Quote

...The next step is to receive the final, next generation optimized IC (integrated circuit) from manufacturing and start assembling. ...This new IC does

What is the minimum and average time you guys expierienced between:

-have a schematic for the IC
and
-having the IC manufactured
and
-having the pcb containing the IC approved CE/ EMC/UL/...

It seems that the first two are already done, even if the manufacturing isn't on full production now, but in general I would says months for all of this. Designing even simple things takes a lot of time so making your own asic/chip/whatever like they say to do ...

With months, how many months do you mean between having the definitive chip schematic, and having the PCB with the chip approved for CE/EMC/UL?
I'm not into chip design, no idea how many time that takes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on October 25, 2015, 02:55:37 am

Quote from: Galenbo on October 24, 2015, 02:31:30 pm

Quote from: Godzil on October 23, 2015, 11:52:45 am

Quote from: Galenbo on October 23, 2015, 08:06:37 am

Quote

...The next step is to receive the final, next generation optimized IC (integrated circuit) from manufacturing and start assembling. ...This new IC does

What is the minimum and average time you guys expierienced between:

-have a schematic for the IC
and
-having the IC manufactured
and
-having the pcb containing the IC approved CE/ EMC/UL/...

It seems that the first two are already done, even if the manufacturing isn't on full production now, but in general I would says months for all of this. Designing even simple things takes a lot of time so making your own asic/chip/whatever like they say to do ...

With months, how many months do you mean between having the definitive chip schematic, and having the PCB with the chip approved for CE/EMC/UL?
I'm not into chip design, no idea how many time that takes.

Depends on how much money you are willing to spend...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: crispy_tofu on October 25, 2015, 03:00:32 am

Quote from: Smokey on October 25, 2015, 02:55:37 am

Depends on how much money you are willing to spend...

Reminds me of this:
(http://i.imgur.com/JK0CyHo.png)

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on October 25, 2015, 08:59:43 am

Quote from: Smokey on October 25, 2015, 02:55:37 am

Depends on how much money you are willing to spend...

Money is not something magic which will shorten time.
It's like the "man month" metric. A 10 man month project will not make it done in 1 day by putting 300 (10*30) persons on it.

And the time for the three steps I would says 3 months is the bare minimum

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 25, 2015, 09:15:42 am

Quote from: Godzil on October 25, 2015, 08:59:43 am

Quote from: Smokey on October 25, 2015, 02:55:37 am

Depends on how much money you are willing to spend...

Money is not something magic which will shorten time.

I'm sure there's chip fabs out there that will let you jump the queue for the right price...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on October 25, 2015, 09:50:26 am

Cheap chip fab maybe, but serious one I doubt.

And making the sample quicker does not change the design time nor debug time. That's what takes a lot of time

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on October 25, 2015, 10:03:59 am

Where's my hoverboard Batteriser?

(I really do mean hoverboard)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 25, 2015, 10:06:32 am

Quote from: Godzil on October 25, 2015, 09:50:26 am

Cheap chip fab maybe, but serious one I doubt.

And making the sample quicker does not change the design time nor debug time. That's what takes a lot of time

Since when does Batterizer care about quality? The whole product is a ripoff! They're not going to spend any money to make it 5% better (or whatever).

Nope. The only reason they'd want to make their own chip is "unit price".

People here are talking about "need to improve the efficiency under 1.5A load", but... seriously? The dimmest of tech bloggers knows how to use a stopwatch, people are going to know Batteriser is a scam as soon as it hits the streets. No amount of chip tweaking will change that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: crispy_tofu on October 25, 2015, 10:08:21 am

Quote from: Halcyon on October 25, 2015, 10:03:59 am

Where's my hoverboard Batteriser?

(I really do mean hoverboard)

Guaranteed to get 800% more board for your hover!  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 25, 2015, 10:38:26 am

Quote from: Fungus on October 25, 2015, 10:06:32 am

People here are talking about "need to improve the efficiency under 1.5A load", but... seriously? The dimmest of tech bloggers knows how to use a stopwatch and people are going to know Batteriser is a scam as soon as it hits the streets. No amount of chip tweaking will change that.

That's going to be the ultimate test.
Anyone can put it in a product and drain it, and then compare without Batteriser, no test gear required, just a stopwatch. If they have to have the time and inclination to do it that is.
IIRC Batteriser used to be all gun-ho about using it on fresh batteriers, and then kinda back-tracked on that saying you can "also" use it on fresh batteries?
But now no mention o that on the website, so simple full cycle product testing with a stopwatch is all that is required to bust this thing wide open.
And their front page is still sprouting a definitive statement that only 20% of a batteries capacity is used. The way it's worded still implies all products do that.
They are going to get hammered! :box:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 25, 2015, 11:40:11 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 25, 2015, 10:38:26 am

Anyone can put it in a product and drain it, and then compare without Batteriser, no test gear required, just a stopwatch. If they have to have the time and inclination to do it that is.

I think a lot of people will want to do that. It's new, it's exciting, it's the reason they bought the damn thing in the first place.

Whether they'll boast about the results is another matter, nobody likes to admit they were ripped off. Most likely it'll end up in the same cupboard as all those abdominal exercisers and workout tapes they bought.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on October 25, 2015, 10:57:15 pm

Quote from: Godzil on October 25, 2015, 08:59:43 am

...
And the time for the three steps I would says 3 months is the bare minimum

Thanks for this info.
I'm really not into chip design, and wanted to know the line where to start calling production claims BS.

In the same budget situation (non-nasa) what is a reasonable minimum batch for IC production per version?
0.1K, 10K, 1M ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on October 25, 2015, 11:09:00 pm

I don't know, but for the ASIC on the company where I work (much more complex than the batteriser chip, and made from an FPGA) it seems that the reasonable minimum was about 1K to 10k chip, but it was comparing to a FPGA solution, so it's strictly depends on the product and the price you agree to put on the chip. (The product we made is not cheap)

I would says that 10K is the "standard" minimum, mais I may be wrong, there are maybe people there that knows more than me on this point

Oh and for the three step, the chip took at least 2 years between the FPGA to the ASIC, and the ASIC had multiple revision (at least 4 or 5) and there are still bugs found and more to be found, the QA was a bit poor TBH on that project, that explain why it was so slow, and there is no real expert in this company on making ASIC, nor FPGA programming, yeah, at some point they wanted to put everything, even the CPU in the FPGA, without good knowledge in the company for that, as for the fact that we use Linux with no one that had experience on it, that was before I joined..., at least 2 years after the project started, yeah that's crazy.
Anyway, the ASIC made by my company is much more complex than the bateroo one, but you can't do anything on the first time perfect, you'll need a lot of test and trial, there are a lots of reason for failure, not necessarily because of your design..

I would recommend to read the Parallax Inc. forum, especially about the propeller, Chip Gracey give a lot of information about the design of his chip the Propeller (yes he made it all by himself, and mostly by hand) about all the problem they had during the first batch and testing of the chip, it's quite interesting.


And for my three months, that's a rough estimation, I seriously doubt that any company was able to make a chip in a three month time span, even small changes will takes a lot of test, either from the manufacturing point of view, and from the usage point of view. A single change could easily break the whole chip... See it as PCB design 100 to 1000x more complex (or even more)
And it's especially true when you want to have the level of performance they claim.
It's for purely the digital domain, but look at all the compilation options you have for "simple" FPGA design, plus all the optimisation that can be done (and need to be done) if you want more than what the automatic optimiser will do...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on October 26, 2015, 06:23:59 am

I'm a bit confused how they claim 1.5amp output, and upto 8x run time, when they haven't even finalised the chip design yet....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on October 26, 2015, 07:59:01 am

It would be funny to put together a basic test procedure that non-EE types could do when these things come out so everyone can do a similar test and share results meaningfully.  Like step by step with pictures. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on October 26, 2015, 08:29:28 am

Quote from: Smokey on October 26, 2015, 07:59:01 am

It would be funny to put together a basic test procedure that non-EE types could do when these things come out so everyone can do a similar test and share results meaningfully.  Like step by step with pictures.

Don't know, only the result would be funny. But if someone really needs a test procedure:

• buy two sets of fresh batteries
• use the first set of batteries, without the batteriser, for a device and measure how long the device runs
• use the second set of batteries, with the batteriser, for the same device and measure how long it runs
• finally, use the first set of batteries, now with the batteriser, for the same device (hint: you won't need a stopwatch this time)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 26, 2015, 08:52:20 am

Quote from: Smokey on October 26, 2015, 07:59:01 am

It would be funny to put together a basic test procedure that non-EE types could do when these things come out so everyone can do a similar test and share results meaningfully.  Like step by step with pictures.

Chose random product
Insert fresh batteries without Batteriser, run widget and time how long until until dead (whatever indicator that is)
Insert fresh batteries (from same packet) with Batteriser, run widget and time how long until until dead (whatever indicator that is)
Take first set of batteries and reinsert  into Batteriser and time how long until until dead (whatever indicator that is)
Measure product battery cutoff voltage if you are able.
We should all do this and collate the info for many different types of product.
First cab off the rank, that Golf GPS.

Other testing is just just for kicks and niche use cases.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on October 26, 2015, 09:54:42 am

Right, using batteries from the same package is important. If possible, measure the open loop voltage of all batteries before testing, should be the same.

And when running the widget, it is important to run it exactly the same way for both tests. For example for a MP3 player, don't use random shuffle, but auto-repeat the same song. An appropriate song for the task would be this: http://tinyurl.com/pqqux9a (http://tinyurl.com/pqqux9a)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on October 26, 2015, 06:47:14 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on October 26, 2015, 09:54:42 am

Right, using batteries from the same package is important. If possible, measure the open loop voltage of all batteries before testing, should be the same.

And when running the widget, it is important to run it exactly the same way for both tests. For example for a MP3 player, don't use random shuffle, but auto-repeat the same song. An appropriate song for the task would be this: http://tinyurl.com/pqqux9a (http://tinyurl.com/pqqux9a)

 >:D +1 for that one..............  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: crispy_tofu on October 26, 2015, 07:34:45 pm

Quote from: SeanB on October 26, 2015, 06:47:14 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on October 26, 2015, 09:54:42 am

Right, using batteries from the same package is important. If possible, measure the open loop voltage of all batteries before testing, should be the same.

And when running the widget, it is important to run it exactly the same way for both tests. For example for a MP3 player, don't use random shuffle, but auto-repeat the same song. An appropriate song for the task would be this: http://tinyurl.com/pqqux9a (http://tinyurl.com/pqqux9a)

 >:D +1 for that one..............  :-+

Agh, you got me... +1  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pdunz on October 26, 2015, 09:47:16 pm

Just seen a facebook post few hours ago, their AAA versions apparently have arrived.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 26, 2015, 10:07:18 pm

Quote from: pdunz on October 26, 2015, 09:47:16 pm

Just seen a facebook post few hours ago, their AAA versions apparently have arrived.

'Sleeves' - no PCB or electronics.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kezat on October 26, 2015, 10:09:44 pm

Its hard to tell but it almost looks like the batteriser at the top of the photo has the positive end blurred out. :-//

Quote from: Fungus on October 26, 2015, 10:07:18 pm

Quote from: pdunz on October 26, 2015, 09:47:16 pm

Just seen a facebook post few hours ago, their AAA versions apparently have arrived.

'Sleeves' - no PCB or electronics.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: crispy_tofu on October 26, 2015, 10:11:24 pm

Quote from: Fungus on October 26, 2015, 10:07:18 pm

Quote from: pdunz on October 26, 2015, 09:47:16 pm

Just seen a facebook post few hours ago, their AAA versions apparently have arrived.

'Sleeves' - no PCB or electronics.

Now if they put stripes on it...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on October 26, 2015, 10:11:56 pm

Quote from: pdunz on October 26, 2015, 09:47:16 pm

Just seen a facebook post few hours ago, their AAA versions apparently have arrived.

This picture is quite strange, looks almost like a 3D rendering, and what the f* it is upside down?

If it's a real photo, the one who took it was stupid enough to take it with the product upside down, so they 180° rotated the photo to show the text in the good direction?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pdunz on October 27, 2015, 06:39:50 am

Quote from: Fungus on October 26, 2015, 10:07:18 pm

Quote from: pdunz on October 26, 2015, 09:47:16 pm

Just seen a facebook post few hours ago, their AAA versions apparently have arrived.

'Sleeves' - no PCB or electronics.

Forgot to mention that. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 27, 2015, 06:47:58 am

Quote from: Fungus on October 26, 2015, 10:07:18 pm

Quote from: pdunz on October 26, 2015, 09:47:16 pm

Just seen a facebook post few hours ago, their AAA versions apparently have arrived.

'Sleeves' - no PCB or electronics.

Details... details...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Joule Thief on October 27, 2015, 07:05:09 am

Quote from: Godzil on October 26, 2015, 10:11:56 pm

Quote from: pdunz on October 26, 2015, 09:47:16 pm

Just seen a facebook post few hours ago, their AAA versions apparently have arrived.

This picture is quite strange, looks almost like a 3D rendering, and what the f* it is upside down?

If it's a real photo, the one who took it was stupid enough to take it with the product upside down, so they 180° rotated the photo to show the text in the good direction?

There just seems to be a certain level of intrigue in and about every single step they take.

That image looks like they glued one shell to the ceiling and the case is glued into a corner of the room.

I stared at it for a few seconds and now I'm dizzy.  :-[

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on October 27, 2015, 07:47:42 am

NoveDecember?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=178596;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: andtfoot on October 27, 2015, 08:33:25 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on October 27, 2015, 07:47:42 am

NoveDecember?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=178596;image)

Depends how you define the holiday season. I've already seen Christmas stuff on shelves here a couple of days ago...  ::)

Actually, after a quick search the US 'holiday season' appears to be, "...(in the US) the period of time from Thanksgiving until New Year, including such festivals as Christmas, Hanukkah, and Kwanzaa.".
Sooo... late November?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: crispy_tofu on October 27, 2015, 08:37:26 am

They never said what they were delivering...  >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: andtfoot on October 27, 2015, 08:45:15 am

Quote from: crispy_tofu on October 27, 2015, 08:37:26 am

They never said what they were delivering...  >:D

I think they are delivering a shipping plan.   :D
What/when stuff gets shipped, well...  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on October 27, 2015, 10:45:58 am

Quote from: Godzil on October 26, 2015, 10:11:56 pm

This picture is quite strange, looks almost like a 3D rendering, and what the f* it is upside down?

My guess is a mix of a real picture of the plastic, and the rest photoshopped into the image.
The item on top looks somewhat real, the other 3 items??? Strange.



 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on October 27, 2015, 12:05:33 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on October 27, 2015, 10:45:58 am

Quote from: Godzil on October 26, 2015, 10:11:56 pm

This picture is quite strange, looks almost like a 3D rendering, and what the f* it is upside down?

My guess is a mix of a real picture of the plastic, and the rest photoshopped into the image.
The item on top looks somewhat real, the other 3 items??? Strange.

When you look at the picture on the correct rotation is seems less like a rendering, but again, why put the device on the wrong orientation and then rotate the picture to let read the name instead of... put them in the correct orientation?
This is so unprofessional

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on October 27, 2015, 12:22:54 pm

So delivery is now... when?

They have been very quiet recently

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on October 27, 2015, 02:15:54 pm

After we expanded our livingroom in september 2012 I told my gf that I would have the (own built) lighting system operational with Christmass.
Unfortunately it took much longer since the first batch of pcb's had stability and EMC issues, so end december she asked me where the lighting system was.
I told her: "I am still on target, the lighting system will be operational with Christmass 2013" ;) 
So batteriser's holiday season , which year?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on October 27, 2015, 02:48:51 pm

No drama. The AAA sleeves don't have PCBs installed yet. They won't clip on the plastic retainers without them. That's why the box had to be positioned upside down for the pretty picture.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 27, 2015, 02:54:37 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on October 27, 2015, 02:48:51 pm

No drama. The AAA sleeves don't have PCBs installed yet. They won't clip on the plastic retainers without them. That's why the box had to be positioned upside down for the pretty picture.

Ummmm... no. They could have put the opposite side of the box on the table.

I'm assuming they didn't notice the mistake until after the photography team had left.   :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on October 27, 2015, 07:01:17 pm

Yoohoo! Oh Batteroo!

When will we seek the new FCC Class B EMC compliance tests for the AA at 1.5A plus the other models?  Shipping without testing the device in its actual usage mode is very naughty, and the FCC might fill your stockings with coal this Christmas without those test reports on file.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on October 27, 2015, 08:44:35 pm

What is funny is that we clearly see the shadow of the person who took the photo

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 28, 2015, 10:23:05 am

Quote from: Godzil on October 27, 2015, 12:05:33 pm

When you look at the picture on the correct rotation is seems less like a rendering, but again, why put the device on the wrong orientation and then rotate the picture to let read the name instead of... put them in the correct orientation?
This is so unprofessional

Ah, it's obvious when you see the pic the right way up.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=178672;image)

If you put them the right way up the camera would have to go below the table to hide the fact that there's no PCBs in them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on October 28, 2015, 12:16:28 pm

what if they actually ship them without the PCB installed? 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 28, 2015, 12:17:24 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on October 28, 2015, 12:16:28 pm

what if they actually ship them without the PCB installed?

It might work better...!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: crispy_tofu on October 28, 2015, 12:18:21 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on October 28, 2015, 12:16:28 pm

what if they actually ship them without the PCB installed?

Then something is seriously wrong with management.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 28, 2015, 12:22:24 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on October 28, 2015, 12:16:28 pm

what if they actually ship them without the PCB installed?

Performance could actually improve in many products!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on October 28, 2015, 12:30:29 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on October 28, 2015, 12:22:24 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on October 28, 2015, 12:16:28 pm

what if they actually ship them without the PCB installed?

Performance could actually improve in many products!

For about 100% better? :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: al brown on October 30, 2015, 06:21:37 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCVlAnpEYUw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCVlAnpEYUw)

 We are the British guys you are talking about in the quote below:

It is a counter-attack against Batteroo.

We believe one of the people we disclosed our ideas to in 2009 leaked it to USA - we showed the (poor) presentation above to some people in 2009 - all under Non-disclosure agreement - but we know how they work.

Anyway, we found out it would not work in a device that draws more than milliamps, so dropped the 'sleeve' idea  and moved onto the product we now have (it uses the milliamps in LEDs until the battery voltage is 0.3Volts - that reduces the toxicity of a 1.2V cell by 75% - much better for landfill and we get light for weeks - yes we choose our LEDs carefully - Nichia usually). We didn't do much with it as we did not know about crowdfunding and have no business sense.

When Batteroo launched their campaign we were PISSED as can be. A scam using our idea and gaining $ thousands.

If you look at our website you will see that we can prove we thought of using the well known circuit by placing it in a container (sleeve like) in about 2008 (we worked fulltime then and it was in our lunchbreaks) - we filed for patent in 2010 (see website).

Yes we launched our batterySqueeze website in 2015; as I said we hoped to use Bateroo's BAD publicity to help with our product that WORKS.

www.allproductdesign.co.uk (http://www.allproductdesign.co.uk) is ours and was live years ago. We are simple inventors that apply science and technology in ways that others have not thought of before. We cannot campaign. We are nerds. We think in different ways, but at least our products work.

We were made redundant recently (the UK is outsourcing the R&D we did to the USA !   so we started a small limited company this year.

www.newboatgear.co.uk (http://www.newboatgear.co.uk)
www.ledknowhow.co.uk (http://www.ledknowhow.co.uk)
www.batterysqueeze.com (http://www.batterysqueeze.com)
www.growbagstand.co.uk (http://www.growbagstand.co.uk)

Quote from: Mr.B on September 24, 2015, 07:36:11 am

Quote from: IanP on September 24, 2015, 05:45:39 am

Have you seen this https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/battery-squeeze-make-flat-aa-batteries-work-again#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/battery-squeeze-make-flat-aa-batteries-work-again#/story).
Some very interesting claims made in their extremely poor campaign video and story

Quote

One flat batter last 6 weeks. Insert two and will give light for 12 weeks

A light that runs 24/7 for 12 weeks on already flat batteries, can't be a very bright light.

 

6 weeks is with LDR in place so circuit only activates at night. 12 weeks with 2 aa cells in parallel

Honestly, this has to be a piss-take on Batteriser...

The campaign video is worse than I could ever produce and I have no experience in video production. We rushed into this trying to counter Batteroo - video etc not our skillset.
They quote "In 2009 or 2008 we (3 recently made redundant scientists) had a light bulb moment. Since then we have tried to sell the invention"...
So he cannot remember when that light bulb moment occurred and clearly does not date his notes.
I thought every engineer or scientist of any discipline dated notes.  We have over 50 inventions on the go in our freetime often on the back of envelopes - 2008 was long ago - we did find our patent application in 2010 and post it on website however.
Do a 'whois' lookup on their domain and the domain was created in June 2015...
Any 6 year old kid can build a joule thief, it is well documented in numerous forms on the net.

But WE were the only ones to think of sticking it an enclosure (wooden to begin with) and apply it to AA cells. We have always stated we are average scientists that stand upon the shoulders of giants, but we think in different ways and are always trying to apply scientific knowledge (in our freetime)

Surely this is a Batteriser piss-take... 

Maybe I am wrong.  As said, COUNTER ATTACK - that looks like it will fail -  only 800 page views in a month - the claims in our patent application are practically word for word what batteroo have used, but like all good scammers, they have backers and skills we don't.

We (3 of us) pooled our saving when the government scrapped us (average age 42) and have been trying our best, but we can't sell - we can hardly socialise, let alone do a sales pitch (except for the two devices seen on our other websites) and we don't sell a lot of those, but all customers like them and love the lifetime guarantee.  All our savings have gone and we have all cashed our pensions in early just to survive. We are all a bit depressed, but hey ho - we aren't dead yet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: al brown on October 30, 2015, 06:23:45 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 24, 2015, 08:02:38 am

Quote from: Mr.B on September 24, 2015, 07:36:11 am

Honestly, this has to be a piss-take on Batteriser...

Price in pounds? Check.

Yep, that's British humour (really!)

British desperation - that is the 3rd invention stolen from us (and abused)

www.allproductdesign.co.uk/Video.html (http://www.allproductdesign.co.uk/Video.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: al brown on October 30, 2015, 06:25:21 pm

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on September 24, 2015, 08:06:19 am

Quote from: IanP on September 24, 2015, 05:45:39 am

Have you seen this https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/battery-squeeze-make-flat-aa-batteries-work-again#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/battery-squeeze-make-flat-aa-batteries-work-again#/story).
Some very interesting claims made in their extremely poor campaign video and story

Quote

One flat batter last 6 weeks. Insert two and will give light for 12 weeks

A light that runs 24/7 for 12 weeks on already flat batteries, can't be a very bright light.

Looks like Batteroo have some competition. Now why didn't I think of that!  :-+ :-DD

The sons of guns are the competitors - we thought of it first - and then realised it wouldn't work so developed a product that did - we are simply trying to claw our way back

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: al brown on October 30, 2015, 06:26:48 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 24, 2015, 08:27:51 am

Quote from: Mr.B on September 24, 2015, 08:10:37 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 24, 2015, 08:02:38 am

Yep, that's British humour (really!)

Sorry, I don't get your point Fungus...

Point: Somebody in Britain thought it would be funny to do that.

I wish.  The doctor actually stuck me on anti-depressants for a while. No one over here is laughing at these Silicon Valley Scams

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on October 30, 2015, 07:31:32 pm

Unfortunately the same clueless claim that draining a battery to 0.4V will give you 3x longer life than when draining to 1.2V  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: al brown on October 30, 2015, 08:59:55 pm

Quote from: PA0PBZ on October 30, 2015, 07:31:32 pm

Unfortunately the same clueless claim that draining a battery to 0.4V will give you 3x longer life than when draining to 1.2V  :palm:

If a battery lasts 1.5 to 1.2V = 0.3V and then 1.2 to 0.3 = 0.9 V, that is 3x.

Or if it lasts 1 week in an xbox controller and then 3 weeks non-stop in our device, that is 3x.

There are statistics, statistics and damn lies.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on October 30, 2015, 09:16:45 pm

Quote from: al brown on October 30, 2015, 08:59:55 pm

Quote from: PA0PBZ on October 30, 2015, 07:31:32 pm

Unfortunately the same clueless claim that draining a battery to 0.4V will give you 3x longer life than when draining to 1.2V  :palm:

If a battery lasts 1.5 to 1.2V = 0.3V and then 1.2 to 0.3 = 0.9 V, that is 3x.

Or if it lasts 1 week in an xbox controller and then 3 weeks non-stop in our device, that is 3x.

There are statistics, statistics and damn lies.

Sure, if you ignore the fact that a battery at about 1.0V has only 1% energy left that's true.
I advise you to read this thread and then come back with your calculations...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: al brown on October 30, 2015, 09:27:21 pm

Quote from: PA0PBZ on October 30, 2015, 09:16:45 pm

Quote from: al brown on October 30, 2015, 08:59:55 pm

Quote from: PA0PBZ on October 30, 2015, 07:31:32 pm

Unfortunately the same clueless claim that draining a battery to 0.4V will give you 3x longer life than when draining to 1.2V  :palm:

If a battery lasts 1.5 to 1.2V = 0.3V and then 1.2 to 0.3 = 0.9 V, that is 3x.

Or if it lasts 1 week in an xbox controller and then 3 weeks non-stop in our device, that is 3x.

There are statistics, statistics and damn lies.

Sure, if you ignore the fact that a battery at about 1.0V has only 1% energy left that's true.
I advise you to read this thread and then come back with your calculations...

We have a product that works.

We SHOW it works LIVE unlike Batteroo.

The stated statistics are irrelevant - our campaign is rubbish - we had to do something to get peoples' attention.

We won't get the product to market even though it has benefits and not a scam such as the Batteroo product.

Do you doubt our product has benefits? Such as 3 weeks of light and 75% reduction in wet chemical toxins?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Biff383 on October 30, 2015, 09:37:00 pm

  I kinda like the wood sleeve idea,but only if you make the inductor out of spider web. Green is good.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on October 30, 2015, 09:39:09 pm

Quote from: al brown on October 30, 2015, 09:27:21 pm

Do you doubt our product has benefits?

I'm sure your product has benefits, like any joule thief it's a niche product that can get a bit of light out of otherwise thrown away batteries.
It's your 3x claim that I call clueless, and I'm just guessing here that you know it is.
Would I use it? No, I'm fine without, my light switch still works and I have no need for candlelight in my room.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: al brown on October 30, 2015, 10:14:19 pm

Quote from: PA0PBZ on October 30, 2015, 09:39:09 pm

Quote from: al brown on October 30, 2015, 09:27:21 pm

Do you doubt our product has benefits?

I'm sure your product has benefits...
...Would I use it? No, I'm fine without, my light switch still works and I have no need for candlelight in my room.

Meanwhile, in the UK alone 43 000 tonnes of AA cells alone (let alone other sizes) go to landfill gradually increasing the toxicity of the land and then water table whilst we offer a cheap, everlasting alternative.

When your electricity fails, our houses are lit up very well (I could measure the lux etc, but much better than 1 candle) using batteries that we used to throw away.

Safe lights to make house look occupied instead of 240 volt timers and bulbs. 

Small lightweight devices for campers, sailors, tent pegs lit up with rubbish batteries.

Lots of benefits - no?

Not to mention Third World countries that can only afford 10 AA batteries a month in their mud huts.

We will get nowhere and remain unemployed I suppose - too old to re-employ, obviously can't sell. We'll become a burden to the state whilst they pay us to go sailing.

I am beginning to hate inventing; especially when others either steal the IP and make money from it or make money from scams.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 30, 2015, 10:22:47 pm

Quote from: al brown on October 30, 2015, 09:27:21 pm

We have a product that works.
We SHOW it works LIVE unlike Batteroo.
The stated statistics are irrelevant - our campaign is rubbish - we had to do something to get peoples' attention.
We won't get the product to market even though it has benefits and not a scam such as the Batteroo product.
Do you doubt our product has benefits? Such as 3 weeks of light and 75% reduction in wet chemical toxins?

Hi
You are welcome here to discuss your product, but if oyu want to do that then please start another thread. This thread is already incredibly long and must be kept for discussion of the Batteriser only.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: al brown on October 30, 2015, 11:17:53 pm

Thanks.

Started thread in "Crowdfunding" section.

Is that correct place?

cheers

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on October 31, 2015, 04:09:12 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on October 31, 2015, 10:28:59 am

Quote from: al brown on October 30, 2015, 11:17:53 pm

Thanks.

Started thread in "Crowdfunding" section.

Is that correct place?

cheers

Nice to see a woman join the forum, nice picture of you in the avatar Al! Short for Alice?

Their profile says male so "he" is a good looking cross dresser - probably the best on this forum   :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on October 31, 2015, 09:24:48 pm

I figured they would, but my comments on the Batteriser facebook page calling them out on the missing PCB / Positive end cap on their two most recent postings have been removed

I am really starting to think they are going to ship them without the PCB actually installed!  Will be hilarious if they do 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on November 01, 2015, 08:39:47 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on October 31, 2015, 09:24:48 pm

I figured they would, but my comments on the Batteriser facebook page calling them out on the missing PCB / Positive end cap on their two most recent postings have been removed

I am really starting to think they are going to ship them without the PCB actually installed!  Will be hilarious if they do

Interesting to see if the placebo effect will be strong with this one ;-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on November 01, 2015, 11:47:51 am

I don't know if this has been pointed out earlier, but I see www.batteriser.com (http://www.batteriser.com) have posted a banner image that claims only 80% more energy from a battery...
Almost likely.
But the caption beneath it suggests they aren't too sure - or want to generate a point of confusion to challenge any blow-back from the previous 800% claims...?  (Or have no idea what they're talking about)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 01, 2015, 02:20:07 pm

Quote from: SL4P on November 01, 2015, 11:47:51 am

I don't know if this has been pointed out earlier, but I see www.batteriser.com (http://www.batteriser.com) have posted a banner image that claims only 80% more energy from a battery...

Yes, we've seen it.

That's just batteriser math. The text at the bottom of that image already contradicts it ("the other 80%" = 400% more).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=179476;image[b][/b])

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on November 05, 2015, 07:20:21 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/IJhgp2U.png)

Is it possible to reply to a response on IGG?

Someone should respond with something like:

Quote

So that means the battery gauge on my device won't work any more once a Batteriser is installed?

Also, still no word on timeframe for shipping:

(http://i.imgur.com/iHr2K9j.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on November 05, 2015, 09:19:27 pm

I can see one of two things happening.  Either they don't ship, ever.  Or, they ship the bare sleeves without the PCB installed and hope placebo takes effect.  I called them out twice on their most recent facebook posts, they deleted my comments (one of which, about the missing PCB positive end cap had over a hundred thumbs up) and have seemingly turned off all comments on their timeline.

Ive got my popcorn and am looking forward to the show :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 05, 2015, 09:32:29 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 05, 2015, 09:19:27 pm

Either they don't ship, ever.  Or, they ship the bare sleeves without the PCB installed and hope placebo takes effect.

That is a ludicrous suggestion. Never going to happen.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on November 06, 2015, 01:36:17 am

Quote from: ez24 on October 31, 2015, 04:09:12 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on October 31, 2015, 10:28:59 am

Quote from: al brown on October 30, 2015, 11:17:53 pm

Thanks.

Started thread in "Crowdfunding" section.

Is that correct place?

cheers

Nice to see a woman join the forum, nice picture of you in the avatar Al! Short for Alice?

Their profile says male so "he" is a good looking cross dresser - probably the best on this forum   :-DD

Cultural tip: Did you know Crossdresser clubs started at England?

Nothing wrong with that! Crossdresser electronics people: Welcome to EEvBLOG ;)

Anyway, I this inspired me to write a post titled "Sexuality, genders and technology" (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/gender-technology-and-relationships-personal-experiences-and-some-thinkings/) based on personal experiences and occasional looking into it. You can read it if you want :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on November 06, 2015, 06:37:30 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 05, 2015, 09:32:29 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 05, 2015, 09:19:27 pm

Either they don't ship, ever.  Or, they ship the bare sleeves without the PCB installed and hope placebo takes effect.

That is a ludicrous suggestion. Never going to happen.

Agreed....  That is just ridiculous.

They are most likely going to ship the product we expect (a DC-DC converter as best they can manage to conjure up to meet their lofty goals) or a slim chance of never shipping anything but I seriously doubt they'll ship nothing.

They'll ship the best that current state of the art electronics and basic physics will allow but I can't see how it's going to be anywhere near their goals or marketing claims.

:popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: RogerRowland on November 06, 2015, 06:59:16 am

Quote from: drussell on November 06, 2015, 06:37:30 am

They'll ship the best that current state of the art electronics and basic physics will allow but I can't see how it's going to be anywhere near their goals or marketing claims.

+1. This.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 06, 2015, 08:36:50 am

Quote from: drussell on November 06, 2015, 06:37:30 am

They are most likely going to ship the product we expect (a DC-DC converter as best they can manage to conjure up to meet their lofty goals) or a slim chance of never shipping anything but I seriously doubt they'll ship nothing.
They'll ship the best that current state of the art electronics and basic physics will allow but I can't see how it's going to be anywhere near their goals or marketing claims.

Yep, I'm 95% sure this is what will happen.
I suspect they'll be a bit late though, but we'll get a product that looks and basically works as claimed, but it's performance, well, that doesn't stand a chance in hell of meeting their claims. We'll find out within a month or two most likely.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on November 06, 2015, 08:45:24 am

I wonder how many revs of the board (and mfg cycle) they will use before they release?
I suspect they are so arrogant, they will build half a million of rev 1.0, then discover something important... beyond the fact it doesn't deliver as claimed!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 06, 2015, 08:50:52 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 06, 2015, 08:36:50 am

Quote from: drussell on November 06, 2015, 06:37:30 am

They are most likely going to ship the product we expect (a DC-DC converter as best they can manage to conjure up to meet their lofty goals) or a slim chance of never shipping anything but I seriously doubt they'll ship nothing.
They'll ship the best that current state of the art electronics and basic physics will allow but I can't see how it's going to be anywhere near their goals or marketing claims.

Yep, I'm 95% sure this is what will happen.
I suspect they'll be a bit late though, but we'll get a product that looks and basically works as claimed, but it's performance, well, that doesn't stand a chance in hell of meeting their claims. We'll find out within a month or two most likely.

Naah. They will be late because they needed to send the reference GPS, monkey and the LED flashlight for repair because they fail to work long enough with the new batteriser. It will take a while to get them back from the manufacturer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 06, 2015, 09:02:02 am

Quote from: SL4P on November 06, 2015, 08:45:24 am

I suspect they are so arrogant, they will build half a million of rev 1.0, then discover something important...

Important enough to need a new capital injection and a few more months of testing?

(because they care about quality and can't possibly ship a substandard product!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 06, 2015, 09:07:06 am

Quote from: SL4P on November 06, 2015, 08:45:24 am

I suspect they are so arrogant, they will build half a million of rev 1.0, then discover something important...

You mean like spending many years in development, running a huge big budget Indiegogo, and then figuring out it isn't very efficient at high current loads mere weeks before delivery?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on November 06, 2015, 09:11:50 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 06, 2015, 09:07:06 am

Quote from: SL4P on November 06, 2015, 08:45:24 am

I suspect they are so arrogant, they will build half a million of rev 1.0, then discover something important...

You mean like spending many years in development, running a huge big budget Indiegogo, and then figuring out it isn't very efficient at high current loads mere weeks before delivery?

Blinded by their self-confidence... in itself, not a bad thing - but when lying and wasting a lot of other people's money... tends to take the gloss off.  But a least the gloss will last 8x as long!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 06, 2015, 09:15:39 am

Quote from: SL4P on November 06, 2015, 09:11:50 am

But a least the gloss will last 8x as long!

You mean 5x, 80% of the unused gloss!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 06, 2015, 10:22:16 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 06, 2015, 09:07:06 am

Quote from: SL4P on November 06, 2015, 08:45:24 am

I suspect they are so arrogant, they will build half a million of rev 1.0, then discover something important...

You mean like spending many years in development, running a huge big budget Indiegogo, and then figuring out it isn't very efficient at high current loads mere weeks before delivery?

To be fair: It was only a few weeks ago that you that pointed out the problems to them.

And you saw how they upgraded their laboratory between the 'Monkey' video and the 'Tech' video. That might have helped them find the flaw in the custom silicon.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on November 06, 2015, 04:31:38 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 06, 2015, 08:36:50 am

I suspect they'll be a bit late though, but we'll get a product that looks and basically works as claimed, but it's performance, well, that doesn't stand a chance in hell of meeting their claims.

That's the crux of the entire thing right there Dave!

Will it work?  As in produce 1.5v from a cell sitting at <1.5v?  Yes.

Will it perform?  As in extend battery life by 8x (or even at all).  Certainly not.  Physics always wins.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: @rt on November 11, 2015, 02:40:47 pm

Hi Guys,
I have tried searching for a thread in here that Dave mentioned in a video.
Apparently has done some testing and posted results?
Any help finding the thread?
Cheers, Brek.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on November 13, 2015, 04:55:08 pm

Quote from: @rt on November 11, 2015, 02:40:47 pm

Hi Guys,
I have tried searching for a thread in here that Dave mentioned in a video.
Apparently has done some testing and posted results?
Any help finding the thread?
Cheers, Brek.

Hi Brek,

Maybe you mean these videos made by TechnologyCatalyst. He's on this forum too.

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cV8SH7Ghbo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cV8SH7Ghbo)
Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw_jFIPxePc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw_jFIPxePc)
And the summary in Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00YYQxOn2YE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00YYQxOn2YE)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 5ky on November 13, 2015, 08:37:37 pm

"November" is running out, and we still haven't heard a peep out of Batteriser....  :scared:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 13, 2015, 09:18:57 pm

Quote from: 5ky on November 13, 2015, 08:37:37 pm

"November" is running out, and we still haven't heard a peep out of Batteriser....  :scared:

You forgot to say what year ?   Maybe November 2025 ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 14, 2015, 02:35:18 am

Quote from: 5ky on November 13, 2015, 08:37:37 pm

"November" is running out, and we still haven't heard a peep out of Batteriser....  :scared:

It's blindingly obvious they will not ship in November.
Them not updating anything for 3 weeks is not them extremely busy in preparation to ship, it means they can't do it.
The last update about waiting for a new silicon is evidence of that.
They aren't dumb, if they can't ship in Nov as promised, they aren't going to tell anyone until after November.
I expect no update until Dec.
But hey, maybe they'll prove us all wrong?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: crispy_tofu on November 14, 2015, 04:59:31 am

Quote from: ez24 on November 13, 2015, 09:18:57 pm

You forgot to say what year ?   Maybe November 2025 ?

November never?  |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on November 15, 2015, 11:18:41 am

Quote from: 5ky on November 13, 2015, 08:37:37 pm

"November" is running out, and we still haven't heard a peep out of Batteriser....  :scared:

Happens all the time, broken deadlines and delays. Even with products that potentially work.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AF6LJ on November 15, 2015, 01:09:43 pm

Quote from: ez24 on November 13, 2015, 09:18:57 pm

Quote from: 5ky on November 13, 2015, 08:37:37 pm

"November" is running out, and we still haven't heard a peep out of Batteriser....  :scared:

You forgot to say what year ?   Maybe November 2025 ?

The year 2525 maybe??

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Dino KL0S on November 15, 2015, 01:50:23 pm

"If man is still alive..." (Sorry, couldn't refuse; showing my age, that song line immediately came to mind!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on November 15, 2015, 01:55:06 pm

Quote from: Dino KL0S on November 15, 2015, 01:50:23 pm

"If man is still alive..." (Sorry, couldn't refuse; showing my age, that song line immediately came to mind!)

That song is older then me and for me it came to mind as well ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AF6LJ on November 15, 2015, 02:28:43 pm

Quote from: meeder on November 15, 2015, 01:55:06 pm

Quote from: Dino KL0S on November 15, 2015, 01:50:23 pm

"If man is still alive..." (Sorry, couldn't refuse; showing my age, that song line immediately came to mind!)

That song is older then me and for me it came to mind as well ;)

Great minds often follow the same path....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on November 15, 2015, 04:11:16 pm

Quote from: AF6LJ on November 15, 2015, 02:28:43 pm

Great minds often follow the same path....

Great minds think alike
Fools seldom differ  8)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lincoln on November 16, 2015, 07:27:26 pm

I always wonder, ether the Battaro folks or the youtube free energy people, or HHO people,  Do they really their own bullshit? Speaking of the latter two, I know there are people that really believe in it, but the guy selling DVDs and supplies what not. Is it a cynical ploy to defraud?

Do I want it to be a cynical ploy to defraud because that is an easy explanation?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: helius on November 17, 2015, 12:10:45 am

It gives people something positive to believe in. You can find many kinds of blind faith in the world.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GoneTomorrow on November 21, 2015, 06:46:54 am

Bob's admitted that it's "a bit behind schedule" on a comment on the Indiegogo campaign.

Quote

Bob Roohparvar Campaigner 11 hours ago
Although we are a bit behind schedule, We certainly don't expect a substantial delay like that! I'm sorry your first crowdfunding experience was not a positive one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 21, 2015, 07:00:57 am

I'm surprised this one hasn't been deleted yet:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=183128;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 21, 2015, 07:12:09 am

Quote from: GoneTomorrow on November 21, 2015, 06:46:54 am

Bob's admitted that it's "a bit behind schedule" on a comment on the Indiegogo campaign.

Quote

Bob Roohparvar Campaigner 11 hours ago
Although we are a bit behind schedule, We certainly don't expect a substantial delay like that! I'm sorry your first crowdfunding experience was not a positive one.

That was in response to someone mentioning a project that was 2 years late, so perhaps "a delay like that" can be a year  ;D
But I'm being cynical, I expect they'll only be a few months late.

The million dollar question is what is their game plan once they ship?
They know full well the product isn't going to deliver as promised, and that countless people are going to test it up the wazoo and make videos and blog and forum posts etc. They'll test it with the exact GPS, with Probes The Monkey, and with countless products someone will collate into a spreadsheet. They'll publish full efficiency performance curves, and it wouldn't surprise me if someone etches away the die and figures out what it is.
It will be a marketing disaster, and if they haven't gotten a huge Walmart or some other deal by then, then the products name will likely be mud.
Their plan up until this point has been "no one has tested it, so all these bloggers are full of crap, trust us". But once all and sundry has tested it and the real data is in, what's left?
They never even shipped those promised "media test kits".
Of course the cynical answer will be they will never ship until they have the consumer deal they want, or the company gets bought, or whatever their ultimate play is, but I think they will grudgingly ship before that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 21, 2015, 09:47:06 am

Yup. November was just never going to happen. Anyone with any industry acumen figured that one out quickly after looking at the scope of what Batteroo has on its plate.

I, too, believe they will ship, just late. Although they really must be stinging from the C and D models. Those, while technically easier, are a huge distraction with no money but all the work.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on November 21, 2015, 10:02:00 am

(http://i.imgur.com/mcGOqci.png)

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 21, 2015, 10:52:45 am

Batteriser extends the delivery time by 800%!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on November 21, 2015, 12:01:46 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if they offer a "Hello Kitty" upgrade option for current backers to get another month or two.  >:D The Batteriser project will implode soon. :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on November 21, 2015, 01:33:00 pm

I'm pretty shocked that no Chinese knockoffs of this have appeared on ebay or Alibaba yet

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on November 21, 2015, 01:44:22 pm

Quote from: firewalker on November 21, 2015, 10:02:00 am

(http://i.imgur.com/mcGOqci.png)

Alexander.

Finalising plans with your logistics provider means diddly squat. That might mean they're found their local post office on Google, or it might mean that they have found a drop shipper or fulfilment agent, but have not come to any agreement yet. Either way it's pretty meaningless.

What it doesn't tell you is when they will have any product to ship. It is not hard to be able to predict that, typically you'll have organised a contract assembler who'll have a number of weeks' lead time, and for the volume they're discussing it would be six to twelve weeks. Is there any evidence that they've even started manufacturing or have a production schedule signed?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on November 21, 2015, 01:45:36 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 21, 2015, 01:33:00 pm

I'm pretty shocked that no Chinese knockoffs of this have appeared on ebay or Alibaba yet

Don't worry to much about that, they will be there

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 21, 2015, 02:30:29 pm

Quote from: Godzil on November 21, 2015, 01:45:36 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 21, 2015, 01:33:00 pm

I'm pretty shocked that no Chinese knockoffs of this have appeared on ebay or Alibaba yet

Don't worry to much about that, they will be there

Which one will deliver first? Batteriser or the Chinese knockoffs?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on November 21, 2015, 02:32:10 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 21, 2015, 01:33:00 pm

I'm pretty shocked that no Chinese knockoffs of this have appeared on ebay or Alibaba yet

You can't copy something not existing yet  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on November 21, 2015, 02:39:01 pm

Quote from: madires on November 21, 2015, 02:32:10 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 21, 2015, 01:33:00 pm

I'm pretty shocked that no Chinese knockoffs of this have appeared on ebay or Alibaba yet

You can't copy something not existing yet  :-DD

Pretty sure there is enough information out there for someone to at least come up with their own version of it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on November 21, 2015, 02:46:21 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 21, 2015, 02:39:01 pm

Pretty sure there is enough information out there for someone to at least come up with their own version of it.

Some forum members did exactly this already. The point is that the concept is broken. Or would you copy a non working circuit for profit? I forgot, audiophoolery is working   :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on November 21, 2015, 03:23:35 pm

Quote from: madires on November 21, 2015, 02:46:21 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 21, 2015, 02:39:01 pm

Pretty sure there is enough information out there for someone to at least come up with their own version of it.

Some forum members did exactly this already. The point is that the concept is broken. Or would you copy a non working circuit for profit? I forgot, audiophoolery is working   [emoji14]alm:

Let's make a IGG campaign! I ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 21, 2015, 03:28:08 pm

Quote from: timofonic on November 21, 2015, 03:23:35 pm

Quote from: madires on November 21, 2015, 02:46:21 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 21, 2015, 02:39:01 pm

Pretty sure there is enough information out there for someone to at least come up with their own version of it.

Some forum members did exactly this already. The point is that the concept is broken. Or would you copy a non working circuit for profit? I forgot, audiophoolery is working   [emoji14]alm:

Let's make a IGG campaign! I ;)

Let's make a monkey which will run 800% longer with the Batteriser, and then start selling those monkeys to all Batteriser buyers! $$$$$

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on November 21, 2015, 03:43:21 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on November 21, 2015, 03:28:08 pm

Quote from: timofonic on November 21, 2015, 03:23:35 pm

Quote from: madires on November 21, 2015, 02:46:21 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 21, 2015, 02:39:01 pm

Pretty sure there is enough information out there for someone to at least come up with their own version of it.

Some forum members did exactly this already. The point is that the concept is broken. Or would you copy a non working circuit for profit? I forgot, audiophoolery is working   [emoji14]alm:

Let's make a IGG campaign! I ;)

Let's make a monkey which will run 800% longer with the Batteriser, and then start selling those monkeys to all Batteriser buyers! $$$$$

This gives a double sense meaning to the Monkey Business term! ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on November 21, 2015, 03:56:36 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on November 21, 2015, 02:30:29 pm

Quote from: Godzil on November 21, 2015, 01:45:36 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 21, 2015, 01:33:00 pm

I'm pretty shocked that no Chinese knockoffs of this have appeared on ebay or Alibaba yet

Don't worry to much about that, they will be there

Which one will deliver first? Batteriser or the Chinese knockoffs?

...

Quote from: madires on November 21, 2015, 02:46:21 pm

Some forum members did exactly this already. The point is that the concept is broken.

Precisely...  Why would you bother to clone a product which cannot work, a product where the very concept itself is fundamentally flawed?

The Chinese clone makers may be many things but they are rarely stupid.  :)

Though, as I've said before, I suppose a properly executed one designed to boost rechargeables to 1.5v volts but not over-discharge them could potentially be a useful product but only in a small number of devices.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on November 21, 2015, 04:26:03 pm

Quote from: drussell on November 21, 2015, 03:56:36 pm

The Chinese clone makers may be many things but they are rarely stupid.  :)

There are a large number of counter example about that, the cloning industry is more about cloning things that is popular than cloning thing "that work" so if they found the batteratruc popular, they will clone it working or not.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 21, 2015, 05:39:02 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 21, 2015, 07:00:57 am

I'm surprised this one hasn't been deleted yet:

They already got the money, what difference does it make?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: crispy_tofu on November 21, 2015, 08:40:18 pm

Quote from: madires on November 21, 2015, 02:32:10 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 21, 2015, 01:33:00 pm

I'm pretty shocked that no Chinese knockoffs of this have appeared on ebay or Alibaba yet

You can't copy something not existing yet  :-DD

I beg to differ.  ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSO1KWLGd50 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSO1KWLGd50)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tekbasse on November 22, 2015, 01:29:33 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 04:36:29 am

Quote from: edy on August 25, 2015, 02:29:17 am

But what happens when a device needs a certain current to function? They are basically saying the Batteriser acts like a "power supply" voltage source in that it keeps a constant minimal voltage while somehow being able to supply whatever variation in current is demanded by the product without any dip in voltage.  Assuming it could magically isolate the device and battery so that current draws don't affect battery voltage, where is the extra "energy" coming from?
The Batteriser is tiny, where is it storing a current source that it can release at will whenever the device demands it?

Bingo.
You canna change the laws of physics captain.

What if the circuit's shell is a novel capacitor?

I watched the debunk video and appreciate it's spirit; Yet, I didn't see where the limits of using a variable DC supply to model battery life performance were addressed etc.

With a battery, a high current load drops voltage; Perhaps the 800% refers to more thoughtful cases of switching a "dead" battery from a high-power heavy-load device that isn't using a Batteriser, to a minimal load device using the Batteriser.

For example, the debunk video concludes that most devices can run rechargeable batteries at 1.2V; Local experience is different. I see consumers tending to buy things requiring alkaline batteries that quit at 1.2V; Rechargeables don't work well with them. For example, I might get 10 minutes using rechargeables with Maglite LED flashlights or digital equipment such as cameras.

Note: Newer Maglite LED models may not be a good example. They seem to have a joule thief built into system, so the 1.2V limit may not exist anymore --I don't have D rechargeables handy to confirm; Based on my DMM readings of recycling used batteries, newer Maglites seem to get more energy out of batteries than before; The used batteries I now collect have less capacity.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on November 22, 2015, 02:17:51 am

Quote from: tekbasse on November 22, 2015, 01:29:33 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 25, 2015, 04:36:29 am

Quote from: edy on August 25, 2015, 02:29:17 am

But what happens when a device needs a certain current to function? They are basically saying the Batteriser acts like a "power supply" voltage source in that it keeps a constant minimal voltage while somehow being able to supply whatever variation in current is demanded by the product without any dip in voltage.  Assuming it could magically isolate the device and battery so that current draws don't affect battery voltage, where is the extra "energy" coming from?
The Batteriser is tiny, where is it storing a current source that it can release at will whenever the device demands it?

Bingo.
You canna change the laws of physics captain.

What if the circuit's shell is a novel capacitor?

I watched the debunk video and appreciate it's spirit; Yet, I didn't see where the limits of using a variable DC supply to model battery life performance were addressed etc.

With a battery, a high current load drops voltage; Perhaps the 800% refers to more thoughtful cases of switching a "dead" battery from a high-power heavy-load device that isn't using a Batteriser, to a minimal load device using the Batteriser.

For example, the debunk video concludes that most devices can run rechargeable batteries at 1.2V; Local experience is different. I see consumers tending to buy things requiring alkaline batteries that quit at 1.2V; Rechargeables don't work well with them. For example, I might get 10 minutes using rechargeables with Maglite LED flashlights or digital equipment such as cameras.

Note: Newer Maglite LED models may not be a good example. They seem to have a joule thief built into system, so the 1.2V limit may not exist anymore --I don't have D rechargeables handy to confirm; Based on my DMM readings of recycling used batteries, newer Maglites seem to get more energy out of batteries than before; The used batteries I now collect have less capacity.

 :palm: This has all been thoroughly addressed and re-addressed throughout this thread. Also... "a novel capacitor"...? Seriously?  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: adprom on November 22, 2015, 02:24:01 am

Quote from: tekbasse on November 22, 2015, 01:29:33 am

What if the circuit's shell is a novel capacitor?

But it's not....

Quote

I watched the debunk video and appreciate it's spirit; Yet, I didn't see where the limits of using a variable DC supply to model battery life performance were addressed etc.

With a battery, a high current load drops voltage; Perhaps the 800% refers to more thoughtful cases of switching a "dead" battery from a high-power heavy-load device that isn't using a Batteriser, to a minimal load device using the Batteriser.

I don't know what is ambiguous abot them stating 80% that the energy of a battery is unused or 800% more life which clearly refers to any single application. Dave has explained numerous times how using a benchtop power supply for closed circuit voltage is correct. Feel free to cite what problems there are in using a benchtop power supply to determine cutoff voltage.

Quote

For example, the debunk video concludes that most devices can run rechargeable batteries at 1.2V; Local experience is different. I see consumers tending to buy things requiring alkaline batteries that quit at 1.2V; Rechargeables don't work well with them. For example, I might get 10 minutes using rechargeables with Maglite LED flashlights or digital equipment such as cameras.

Nearly any decently designed device has a boost converter in in it. No well designed digital camera works poorly with rechargeable batteries. It has been years since I have had a device that has a particularly high cut off voltage. I think the last, was a really old cordless mouse.

Quote

Note: Newer Maglite LED models may not be a good example. They seem to have a joule thief built into system, so the 1.2V limit may not exist anymore --I don't have D rechargeables handy to confirm; Based on my DMM readings of recycling used batteries, newer Maglites seem to get more energy out of batteries than before; The used batteries I now collect have less capacity.

I was going to suggest, for an LED light to not have a boost converter in it would be a pretty poor design.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on November 22, 2015, 04:01:56 am

Quote from: drussell on November 21, 2015, 03:56:36 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on November 21, 2015, 02:30:29 pm

Quote from: Godzil on November 21, 2015, 01:45:36 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 21, 2015, 01:33:00 pm

I'm pretty shocked that no Chinese knockoffs of this have appeared on ebay or Alibaba yet

Don't worry to much about that, they will be there

Which one will deliver first? Batteriser or the Chinese knockoffs?

...

Quote from: madires on November 21, 2015, 02:46:21 pm

Some forum members did exactly this already. The point is that the concept is broken.

Precisely...  Why would you bother to clone a product which cannot work, a product where the very concept itself is fundamentally flawed?

The Chinese clone makers may be many things but they are rarely stupid.  :)

Though, as I've said before, I suppose a properly executed one designed to boost rechargeables to 1.5v volts but not over-discharge them could potentially be a useful product but only in a small number of devices.

Interestingly enough the Chinese have come up with AA batteries that contain a lithium cell and minature buck converter:

http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Kentli%20AA%202800mWh%20(Blue)%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Kentli%20AA%202800mWh%20(Blue)%20UK.html)
http://www.amazon.com/TBOO-Rechargeable-Battery-Lithium-1000mAh/dp/B00YOSBH2Y (http://www.amazon.com/TBOO-Rechargeable-Battery-Lithium-1000mAh/dp/B00YOSBH2Y)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tekbasse on November 22, 2015, 04:18:40 am

Quote from: adprom on November 22, 2015, 02:24:01 am

Quote from: tekbasse on November 22, 2015, 01:29:33 am

What if the circuit's shell is a novel capacitor?

But it's not....

AFAICT, that's hearsay until confirmed.

Quote from: adprom on November 22, 2015, 02:24:01 am

I don't know what is ambiguous abot them stating 80% that the energy of a battery is unused or 800% more life which clearly refers to any single application. Dave has explained numerous times how using a benchtop power supply for closed circuit voltage is correct. Feel free to cite what problems there are in using a benchtop power supply to determine cutoff voltage.

For purposes of a battery powered device, a benchtop power supply supplies essentially limitless current. Batteries have performance limits on their current output. Exceeding specs degrade overall life capacity.

"..the amount of current we can really draw (the power capability) from a battery is often limited.." from https://learn.adafruit.com/all-about-batteries/power-capacity-and-power-capability

Quote from: adprom on November 22, 2015, 02:24:01 am

Nearly any decently designed device has a boost converter in in it. No well designed digital camera works poorly with rechargeable batteries. It has been years since I have had a device that has a particularly high cut off voltage. I think the last, was a really old cordless mouse.

You're a careful buyer. Least cost economics tend to favor poor choices.

Quote from: adprom on November 22, 2015, 02:24:01 am

I was going to suggest, for an LED light to not have a boost converter in it would be a pretty poor design.

Sadly, many consumer electronics products are not designed for optimal battery performance.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 22, 2015, 07:42:40 am

Quote from: tekbasse on November 22, 2015, 04:18:40 am

Quote from: adprom on November 22, 2015, 02:24:01 am

Quote from: tekbasse on November 22, 2015, 01:29:33 am

What if the circuit's shell is a novel capacitor?

But it's not....

AFAICT, that's hearsay until confirmed.

It is confirmed, time and time again, by Batteroo in all their marketing, interviews, patents, etc.
It is a simply a DC-DC boost converter.

Quote

Quote from: adprom on November 22, 2015, 02:24:01 am

I don't know what is ambiguous abot them stating 80% that the energy of a battery is unused or 800% more life which clearly refers to any single application. Dave has explained numerous times how using a benchtop power supply for closed circuit voltage is correct. Feel free to cite what problems there are in using a benchtop power supply to determine cutoff voltage.

For purposes of a battery powered device, a benchtop power supply supplies essentially limitless current. Batteries have performance limits on their current output.

Technically correct. Using a PSU to simulate a battery is not in theory correct, but it's so close for the way most modern practical products are designed and implemented (DC-DC converters, copious decoupling etc, the way the low batt detection works etc), that it's an industry standard technique for doing so. Unless of course you have some specific niche product application that it really does make a difference.
And even when not true strictly true, using a PSU gets you a pretty good ballpark estimate.
But the average product Batteroo are talking about they are equivalent techniques.

Quote

Sadly, many consumer electronics products are not designed for optimal battery performance.

Yes, but the majority are designed to get at least decent performance with their intended batteries.
Go out and test products like I did and you'll find that's the case.
Batteroo have had 5 years to work on this, have millions of dollars on the line, and they can't even produce a list of products that are poorly designed like you mention.
Their big test with the GPS has been thoroughly proven to have been incorrectly implemented and/or deliberately deceiving.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 22, 2015, 07:58:51 am

Quote from: tekbasse on November 22, 2015, 01:29:33 am

What if the circuit's shell is a novel capacitor?

I watched the debunk video and appreciate it's spirit; Yet, I didn't see where the limits of using a variable DC supply to model battery life performance were addressed etc.

With a battery, a high current load drops voltage; Perhaps the 800% refers to more thoughtful cases of switching a "dead" battery from a high-power heavy-load device that isn't using a Batteriser, to a minimal load device using the Batteriser.

For example, the debunk video concludes that most devices can run rechargeable batteries at 1.2V; Local experience is different. I see consumers tending to buy things requiring alkaline batteries that quit at 1.2V; Rechargeables don't work well with them. For example, I might get 10 minutes using rechargeables with Maglite LED flashlights or digital equipment such as cameras.

Note: Newer Maglite LED models may not be a good example. They seem to have a joule thief built into system, so the 1.2V limit may not exist anymore --I don't have D rechargeables handy to confirm; Based on my DMM readings of recycling used batteries, newer Maglites seem to get more energy out of batteries than before; The used batteries I now collect have less capacity.

Is this a troll?  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 22, 2015, 08:01:38 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 22, 2015, 07:58:51 am

Is this a troll?  :palm:

tekbasse is a free energy/overunity aficionado.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tekbasse on November 22, 2015, 08:15:31 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 22, 2015, 08:01:38 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 22, 2015, 07:58:51 am

Is this a troll?  :palm:

tekbasse is a free energy/overunity aficionado.

LOL, got to love labels. I guess I am if it includes Mill's GUT-CP http://www.blacklightpower.com/theory-2/theory/ (http://www.blacklightpower.com/theory-2/theory/) , but then most any theory that supports electrons moving essentially perpetually ie preventing atoms from imploding is worth consideration --including quantum mechanics. ;-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: crispy_tofu on November 22, 2015, 08:32:39 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 22, 2015, 07:58:51 am

Is this a troll?  :palm:

You can make your own conclusion... link (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/te-and-strategy-to-design-novel-tv-antenna-open-hardware-to-be-crowdfunded/msg800424/#msg800424)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 22, 2015, 08:49:33 am

Quote from: crispy_tofu on November 22, 2015, 08:32:39 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 22, 2015, 07:58:51 am

Is this a troll?  :palm:

You can make your own conclusion... link (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/te-and-strategy-to-design-novel-tv-antenna-open-hardware-to-be-crowdfunded/msg800424/#msg800424)

Conclusion: "Nutcase".

(Which he'll somehow give a positive spin - young maverick, living on the edge, refusing to accept the theories of 'classical engineering'... despite the entire observable universe obeying the laws of thermodynamics all around him  :palm: )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on November 22, 2015, 11:11:16 am

Quote from: tekbasse on November 22, 2015, 01:29:33 am

With a battery, a high current load drops voltage; Perhaps the 800% refers to more thoughtful cases of switching a "dead" battery from a high-power heavy-load device that isn't using a Batteriser, to a minimal load device using the Batteriser.

But you could achieve the same result without a batteriser.  A cell that is unable to power a high current device may still power a low current device for a long time.

Quote from: tekbasse on November 22, 2015, 01:29:33 am

joule thief

No it doesn't integrate a joule thief, it has a regulated boost converter.  A joule thief is specific circuit for stepping up the voltage from a single cell to light an LED, and is a crude, unregulated and fairly inefficient design whose primary advantage is minimal component count and low cost.

Quote from: tekbasse on November 22, 2015, 08:15:31 am

LOL, got to love labels.

If the label fits...  And this this case it appears to be a bespoke, Savile Row made label.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on November 23, 2015, 01:57:54 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 22, 2015, 07:42:40 am

It is confirmed, time and time again, by Batteroo in all their marketing, interviews, patents, etc.
It is a simply a DC-DC boost converter.

Hmmm patents....Looks like they don't have any granted in the US/EU. The patent examiner examining their US application found possible prior (now active) art about a month ago [US2010/0136374 - assigned to Samsung as US9147864 B2 (examiner believes obvious modification in view of US6118248 and US4702975)]. So to me it appears that even if they had everything ready to go with UL approval and in boxes, they can't sanely ship units in the US/EU until the patent clears, unless they want to risk possible infringement (and actually I think they may be at risk even if they don't ship due to presales). From what I can tell, Batteroos patent claims are to be rejected unless Batteroo has a good argument, Batteroos arguments were sent about a week and a half ago... so will see

USPTO public PAIR system  http://portal.uspto.gov/pair/PublicPair (http://portal.uspto.gov/pair/PublicPair)
Select "application number" and enter "14/542313"
Click "image file wrapper" tab

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on November 23, 2015, 02:19:52 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on November 23, 2015, 01:57:54 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 22, 2015, 07:42:40 am

It is confirmed, time and time again, by Batteroo in all their marketing, interviews, patents, etc.
It is a simply a DC-DC boost converter.

Hmmm patents....Looks like they don't have any granted in the US/EU. The patent examiner examining their US application found possible prior (now active) art about a month ago [US2010/0136374 - assigned to Samsung as US9147864 B2 (examiner believes obvious modification in view of US6118248 and US4702975)]. So to me it appears that even if they had everything ready to go with UL approval and in boxes, they can't sanely ship units in the US/EU until the patent clears, unless they want to risk possible infringement (and actually I think they may be at risk even if they don't ship due to presales). From what I can tell, Batteroos patent claims are to be rejected unless Batteroo has a good argument, Batteroos arguments were sent about a week and a half ago... so will see

USPTO public PAIR system  http://portal.uspto.gov/pair/PublicPair (http://portal.uspto.gov/pair/PublicPair)
Select "application number" and enter "14/542313"
Click "image file wrapper" tab

I don't understand legalese but it sounds fun! Did anybody contact Samsung?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 23, 2015, 02:21:01 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on November 23, 2015, 01:57:54 am

Hmmm patents....Looks like they don't have any granted in the US/EU. The patent examiner examining their US application found possible prior (now active) art about a month ago [US2010/0136374 - assigned to Samsung as US9147864 B2 (examiner believes obvious modification in view of US6118248 and US4702975)]. So to me it appears that even if they had everything ready to go with UL approval and in boxes, they can't sanely ship units in the US/EU until the patent clears, unless they want to risk possible infringement (and actually I think they may be at risk even if they don't ship due to presales). From what I can tell, Batteroos patent claims are to be rejected unless Batteroo has a good argument, Batteroos arguments were sent about a week and a half ago... so will see
USPTO public PAIR system  http://portal.uspto.gov/pair/PublicPair (http://portal.uspto.gov/pair/PublicPair)
Select "application number" and enter "14/542313"
Click "image file wrapper" tab

They might be in trouble with potentially having their patent application rejected, but does mean they are infringing the other patents?
Wouldn't it just mean that their variation is simply not novel enough to warrant granting a new patent?
The discussion seem quite extensive (see attached).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: helius on November 23, 2015, 05:07:47 am

For a patent to be valid, it must claim a technique that is a non-obvious improvement on the prior art. This is separate from infringement, which is when you use a patented technique without a right to. If the prior art is still in force, your patented improvement may be in one of four cases: valid, and non-infringing; valid, and infringing; not valid, and non-infringing; not valid, and infringing. Just because your improvement is valid, if making it falls under the claims of a prior valid patent, then you need to license that patent. One way is to cross-license with the other owner. Another approach would be buying legally licensed products and modifying them according to your improvement.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on November 23, 2015, 05:40:31 am

Well there's something satisfying in that an expert in the field of patent application, with more patents than there are days in the year, can have their project held up by a possible patent infringement.

I doubt that's the only reason for the delay though.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 23, 2015, 06:05:50 am

Quote from: Howardlong on November 23, 2015, 05:40:31 am

I doubt that's the only reason for the delay though.

I doubt it's a reason for any delay.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on November 23, 2015, 08:53:20 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2015, 02:21:01 am

They might be in trouble with potentially having their patent application rejected, but does mean they are infringing the other patents?
Wouldn't it just mean that their variation is simply not novel enough to warrant granting a new patent?
The discussion seem quite extensive (see attached).

I think the examiner is more interested in obviousness than novelty. If the examiner rejects based on novelty against the claims of an active patent, then I think there would likely be potential infringement issue. Same with direct obviousness. However, for obviousness against combination of patents (sec 103 - the current batteriser prior art), it's a lot less clear to me (not lawyer); seems like you could have a patent rejected but be ok to enter market in many/most cases but can’t find that stated anywhere. I think this case may fall under the “Doctrine of equivalents” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_of_equivalents (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_of_equivalents) but I don’t really know.

Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2015, 06:05:50 am

Quote from: Howardlong on November 23, 2015, 05:40:31 am

I doubt that's the only reason for the delay though.

I doubt it's a reason for any delay.

Agreed in this case. However, half the use of a patent is to be “reasonably assured you can enter the space”; if they are really sincere that they wish to enter the market as a serious company it would be dumb not wait out the short period until fully examined by the USPTO since the space is fairly convoluted, and the number of units they wish to send out is definitely enough to get them noticed if there is an infringement issue present. If they wait, then they can possibly maneuver a bit to get out of infringement (if any found) and if they're rejected but not in infringement, then no big deal in-terms of shipping units. I think they knew this would be the normal thing to do, which is why at the bottom of their Indiegogo page, the timeline clearly says “2010-2013 … Patents” as if they had done it before presale.

Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2015, 02:21:01 am

The discussion seem quite extensive (see attached).

Attached file from the patent examiner which is in reference to previous attachment; not a quick read but makes the other file from Batteroo more readable.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: coppice on November 23, 2015, 09:11:00 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2015, 02:21:01 am

Wouldn't it just mean that their variation is simply not novel enough to warrant granting a new patent?

How could you possibly measure a quantity of novelty? What the patent system is supposed to judge is obviousness of novelty to someone versed in the field, although it does a pretty poor job of this.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on November 23, 2015, 09:41:57 am

Quote from: coppice on November 23, 2015, 09:11:00 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2015, 02:21:01 am

Wouldn't it just mean that their variation is simply not novel enough to warrant granting a new patent?

How could you possibly measure a quantity of novelty? What the patent system is supposed to judge is obviousness of novelty to someone versed in the field, although it does a pretty poor job of this.

Obviousness and novelty are treated as separate things by the patent office. Novelty is actually considered the easier of the two to measure, since it is usually just examining claims, dates, and disclosures. Obviousness is... less obvious see http://www.bitlaw.com/patent/requirements.html (http://www.bitlaw.com/patent/requirements.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: coppice on November 23, 2015, 10:01:38 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on November 23, 2015, 09:41:57 am

Quote from: coppice on November 23, 2015, 09:11:00 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2015, 02:21:01 am

Wouldn't it just mean that their variation is simply not novel enough to warrant granting a new patent?

How could you possibly measure a quantity of novelty? What the patent system is supposed to judge is obviousness of novelty to someone versed in the field, although it does a pretty poor job of this.

Obviousness and novelty are treated as separate things by the patent office. Novelty is actually considered the easier of the two to measure, since it is usually just examining claims, dates, and disclosures. Obviousness is... less obvious see http://www.bitlaw.com/patent/requirements.html (http://www.bitlaw.com/patent/requirements.html)

The patent office doesn't try to measure amounts of novelty, only that novelty is present.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 23, 2015, 10:37:08 am

Quote from: coppice on November 23, 2015, 09:11:00 am

How could you possibly measure a quantity of novelty? What the patent system is supposed to judge is obviousness of novelty to someone versed in the field, although it does a pretty poor job of this.

That's because the patent examiner almost certainly isn't someone who's well versed in the practical  field.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2015, 02:28:03 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2015, 10:37:08 am

Quote from: coppice on November 23, 2015, 09:11:00 am

How could you possibly measure a quantity of novelty? What the patent system is supposed to judge is obviousness of novelty to someone versed in the field, although it does a pretty poor job of this.

That's because the patent examiner almost certainly isn't someone who's well versed in the practical  field.

And it doesn't help that they only get paid to accept patents, not to reject them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: adprom on November 24, 2015, 12:01:51 am

Quote from: tekbasse on November 22, 2015, 04:18:40 am

AFAICT, that's hearsay until confirmed.

You have just completely made up that capacitor theory! It is complete hearsay (and unwarranted speculation) that something may exist where there has been no indication that it exists, and it is not mentioned in any patent. If that was the case - they would be marketing the hell out of it.

Quote

Quote from: adprom on November 22, 2015, 02:24:01 am

Nearly any decently designed device has a boost converter in in it. No well designed digital camera works poorly with rechargeable batteries. It has been years since I have had a device that has a particularly high cut off voltage. I think the last, was a really old cordless mouse.

You're a careful buyer. Least cost economics tend to favor poor choices.

As Dave said, it is quite hard to find any circuit, even cheap rubbish that doesn't have a boost converter in it.

Quote

Sadly, many consumer electronics products are not designed for optimal battery performance.

See comment above.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on November 24, 2015, 05:20:33 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 23, 2015, 02:28:03 pm

And it doesn't help that they only get paid to accept patents, not to reject them.

Huh?

The patent examiner at the patent office gets paid their salary regardless of how many patents they accept or deny.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: coppice on November 24, 2015, 07:55:52 am

Quote from: drussell on November 24, 2015, 05:20:33 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 23, 2015, 02:28:03 pm

And it doesn't help that they only get paid to accept patents, not to reject them.

Huh?

The patent examiner at the patent office gets paid their salary regardless of how many patents they accept or deny.

The patent office gets paid for accepting patents, so their ability to pay staff is predicated on sustaining a good rate of patent acceptance. Not following a "when in doubt accept" policy is not likely to be career enhancing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2015, 10:21:27 am

Quote from: drussell on November 24, 2015, 05:20:33 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 23, 2015, 02:28:03 pm

And it doesn't help that they only get paid to accept patents, not to reject them.

Huh? The patent examiner at the patent office gets paid their salary regardless of how many patents they accept or deny.

Sure, but their bosses don't.

Patents are a commercial enterprise. Their bosses want them to accept as many patents as possible. Rejecting a lot of patents is frowned upon.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2015, 10:23:11 am

Quote from: adprom on November 24, 2015, 12:01:51 am

Quote from: tekbasse on November 22, 2015, 04:18:40 am

AFAICT, that's hearsay until confirmed.

You have just completely made up that capacitor theory! It is complete hearsay (and unwarranted speculation) that something may exist where there has been no indication that it exists

Hey, that's the way the over-unity people roll...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2015, 11:46:49 am

Quote from: drussell on November 24, 2015, 05:20:33 am

The patent examiner at the patent office gets paid their salary regardless of how many patents they accept or deny.

I wonder if there are any rouge hard-arse patent examiners? who just sit there all day and go:

Quote

Nope!
Bullshit!
*face palm*
You gotta be kidding!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on November 24, 2015, 11:51:26 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2015, 11:46:49 am

Quote from: drussell on November 24, 2015, 05:20:33 am

The patent examiner at the patent office gets paid their salary regardless of how many patents they accept or deny.

I wonder if there are any rouge hard-arse patent examiners? who just sit there all day and go:

Quote

Nope!
Bullshit!
*face palm*
You gotta be kidding!

No, they do an IQ test at the interview and if you pass it you don't get a job.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on November 24, 2015, 11:53:03 am

Einstein once worked in a patent office...admittedly, not in the US.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on November 24, 2015, 11:57:34 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2015, 11:46:49 am

Quote from: drussell on November 24, 2015, 05:20:33 am

The patent examiner at the patent office gets paid their salary regardless of how many patents they accept or deny.

I wonder if there are any rouge hard-arse patent examiners? who just sit there all day and go:

Quote

Nope!
Bullshit!
*face palm*
You gotta be kidding!

And have a cousin named Probe?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2015, 12:19:43 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2015, 11:46:49 am

I wonder if there are any rouge hard-arse patent examiners? who just sit there all day and go:

Quote

Nope!
Bullshit!
*face palm*
You gotta be kidding!

Sadly, not.

I'd love to work at the patent office. I'd totally be rejecting stuff all day long.

OTOH I know somebody who works in a patent office in Germany (Munich). They showed me around their new building/offices one day and it's unbelievable. All very plush and everything completely automated. Detectors to know if anybody is in the room to control the heating individually, automatic window blinds with sunlight detectors, etc. Must have cost a fortune to build and you don't get that sort of money from rejecting patents.

The Patent Office is a perfect example of something that should be paid for with taxpayer money. There's no way acceptance of patents should have a profit motive (and they should only employ curmudgeons).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: d-smes on November 24, 2015, 02:18:36 pm

The US Patent and Trademark building is also very nice.  While they are funded with taxpayer money, they are the only US government agency that takes in way more than they spend (the IRS doesn't count).  They actually turn a profit (it goes into the General Fund; they don't get to spend it).  I suspect that is true of other patent offices around the world.  While it is true one must pay an Issue Fee for a patent to become official, the real money is made with annuity payments required every several years (yearly in the EU, I believe) to keep the patent or trademark active and enforceable throughout its 20 year life.

Sorry I can't dispel the "profit motive" appearance.  But I will say it's not a slam dunk to get a patent.  The examiners are very good at finding published papers and prior art to reject ones claim.  It takes several back-and-forth office actions to explain and educate them how your invention works and is different.   In the end, only about 80% of my dozens of applications were granted patent status.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2015, 05:03:00 pm

Quote from: d-smes on November 24, 2015, 02:18:36 pm

Sorry I can't dispel the "profit motive" appearance.  But I will say it's not a slam dunk to get a patent.  The examiners are very good at finding published papers and prior art to reject ones claim.  It takes several back-and-forth office actions to explain and educate them how your invention works and is different.   In the end, only about 80% of my dozens of applications were granted patent status.

Maybe for "prior art" but certainly not for "non-obviousness".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on November 25, 2015, 06:00:27 pm

well this comes as no surprise!

interesting though they do reveal the prototype had a maximum 500mA output limit

Quote

Dear Indiegogo Supporters,

Our team has been hard at work completing final development of Batteriser and moving into initial production. At this time, we have encountered a slight delay relating to the manufacturing of the Batteriser's integrated circuit (IC).

Our earlier proof of concept prototype IC could efficiently deliver 500 milliamps of steady state current. However, as many applications need higher current driving capabilities, we modified our Integrated Circuit (IC) design to make it capable of the higher level of current driving capability. We expected our final IC to be ready and out of the fabrication facility (FAB) over a month ago. However, due to a drift in process parameters, the IC is still being worked on by our engineering team, in order to be ready for mass production. Fortunately, we have been working diligently with the FAB to address and fix the issues responsible for this delay, and we are anxiously waiting to receive our final IC in the coming weeks. We are committed to producing your Batterisers with the highest quality standards.

As you might recall, this is the last component necessary to start assembling and shipping Batterisers. At this time, we will need to delay our estimated ship date, but we are doing everything possible to ship Batterisers to you and your family as soon as possible, and hopefully before Christmas.

As part of our commitment to shipping to our supporters as early as possible, we have already made arrangements to have the first production batch shipped via air from our manufacturing partners in Asia, therefore significantly expediting the overall shipping process. Although we will incur significantly more costs by air shipping, it will be well worth the reward of making our Indiegogo supporters happy.

We sinerely apologize for the delay and for any inconvenience it may cause you. We couldn't be more thankful for your support, and hope to have Batterisers in your hands as soon as possible! Thank you and please enjoy a wonderful Thanksgiving!

Best Wishes,
Bob Roohparvar
CEO | Batteroo, Inc.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on November 25, 2015, 06:26:53 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on November 25, 2015, 06:00:27 pm

interesting though they do reveal the prototype had a maximum 500mA output limit

And they still don't specify the maximum current of the modified Integrated Circuit (IC).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on November 25, 2015, 06:36:06 pm

501mA maximum current, or 1.002A in marketing speak.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on November 25, 2015, 06:38:06 pm

Quote from: SeanB on November 25, 2015, 06:36:06 pm

501mA maximum current

lol, you beat me to it!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on November 25, 2015, 06:56:37 pm

Quote from: PA0PBZ on November 25, 2015, 06:26:53 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on November 25, 2015, 06:00:27 pm

interesting though they do reveal the prototype had a maximum 500mA output limit

And they still don't specify the maximum current of the modified Integrated Circuit (IC).

They were bragging about 1.5A output.  ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on November 25, 2015, 07:14:45 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on November 25, 2015, 06:56:37 pm

Quote from: PA0PBZ on November 25, 2015, 06:26:53 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on November 25, 2015, 06:00:27 pm

interesting though they do reveal the prototype had a maximum 500mA output limit

And they still don't specify the maximum current of the modified Integrated Circuit (IC).

They were bragging about 1.5A output.  ::)

At some stage in the past they were boasting "as much as the battery could deliver"...  Which we all know is pure BS.
I just cannot find the original Bob Roohparvar post to be able to quote it here.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on November 25, 2015, 07:23:44 pm

Drift in process parameters: FAB can't produce functioning ICs in sufficient numbers. Too many duds.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 25, 2015, 07:56:55 pm

So, 5 days before everyone is meant to have them, they admit they don't even have a functioning unit?  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2015, 08:01:49 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on November 25, 2015, 06:00:27 pm

We expected our final IC to be ready and out of the fabrication facility (FAB) over a month ago. However the IC is still being worked on by our engineering team

Film at 11.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on November 25, 2015, 08:29:53 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on November 25, 2015, 06:00:27 pm

well this comes as no surprise!

interesting though they do reveal the prototype had a maximum 500mA output limit

Quote

Dear Indiegogo Supporters,

Our team has been hard at work completing final development of Batteriser and moving into initial production. At this time, we have encountered a slight delay relating to the manufacturing of the Batteriser's integrated circuit (IC).

Our earlier proof of concept prototype IC could efficiently deliver 500 milliamps of steady state current. However, as many applications need higher current driving capabilities, we modified our Integrated Circuit (IC) design to make it capable of the higher level of current driving capability. We expected our final IC to be ready and out of the fabrication facility (FAB) over a month ago. However, due to a drift in process parameters, the IC is still being worked on by our engineering team, in order to be ready for mass production. Fortunately, we have been working diligently with the FAB to address and fix the issues responsible for this delay, and we are anxiously waiting to receive our final IC in the coming weeks. We are committed to producing your Batterisers with the highest quality standards.

As you might recall, this is the last component necessary to start assembling and shipping Batterisers. At this time, we will need to delay our estimated ship date, but we are doing everything possible to ship Batterisers to you and your family as soon as possible, and hopefully before Christmas.

As part of our commitment to shipping to our supporters as early as possible, we have already made arrangements to have the first production batch shipped via air from our manufacturing partners in Asia, therefore significantly expediting the overall shipping process. Although we will incur significantly more costs by air shipping, it will be well worth the reward of making our Indiegogo supporters happy.

We sinerely apologize for the delay and for any inconvenience it may cause you. We couldn't be more thankful for your support, and hope to have Batterisers in your hands as soon as possible! Thank you and please enjoy a wonderful Thanksgiving!

Best Wishes,
Bob Roohparvar
CEO | Batteroo, Inc.

Doesn't that invalidate the FCC certifications?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on November 25, 2015, 08:32:48 pm

"hopefully" before Christmas.....2016   

So they have gone over a month since their last update when they were "working hard" with their 3rd party logistics to get them all out to investors, then another update a few weeks ago about them being almost ready, just needing final assembly, now to engineering and fabrication delays.  It seems kinda backwards to me, like these things should be announced in reverse order.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on November 25, 2015, 08:34:45 pm

Quote from: jancumps on November 25, 2015, 08:29:53 pm

Doesn't that invalidate the FCC certifications?

Indeed, it would. A moot point considering this product will probably never actually ship  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 25, 2015, 08:37:52 pm

If they don't even have the final design yet, there's zero chance they'll get them out this year.

Its now gotten to the point that they don't even have the product they ran the indiegogo campaign for, so should be refunding people, and starting again from scratch, or just scrapping the whole thing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on November 25, 2015, 09:58:14 pm

Quote from: jancumps on November 25, 2015, 08:29:53 pm

Doesn't that invalidate the FCC certifications?

They did the EMC test with a 1k load resistor. They can be pretty sure that the new IC will pass this test, too :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on November 25, 2015, 11:06:30 pm

Hi Group,

I am going to demonstrate that the specification that Batteriser is trying to achieve is not physically possible. There is no need to consider the IC at all.

Battery Measurement

First I used my HPIB controlled Load and DMMs to characterise a AA Cell. I used a Duracell Procell. This is a top tier battery.
Here is a picture of the equipment:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=183771;image)

The discharging was interrupted periodically to measure the Open Circuit Voltage and the ESR of the battery.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=183773;image)

This data is consistent with data published by various battery manufacturers.

LTspice Model

The data from the battery measurements was transferred to an LTspice model. The model includes tables for OCV and ESR.

I have arranged the model to step from 90% charged to 10% charged in 20% steps. At each step I have swept the load resistance from 2 Ohms to 0.1 Ohms. I have plotted a graph that shows peak power in Watts that can be obtained from the cell. (I use the word charged even though the alkaline battery is a primary cell. Think of the cell as being chemically charged.)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=183775;image)


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=183777;image)

Maximum Power Theorem

The Maximum Power Theorem states that the maximum power will be delivered to the load when the load resistance (impedance) is equal in magnitude to the source resistance (impedance). In this case this happens when the load resistance is equal to the ESR. And at that point half the power is dissipated in the ESR and half in the load.

Observation

In order to get 1.5W from the cell, the cell must have greater than 70% of capacity left.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 26, 2015, 02:05:40 am

Screen cap for posterity
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=183800;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on November 26, 2015, 02:24:42 am

Hi,

This is the most incredible, as in unbelievable, part of that message:

However, due to a drift in process parameters, the IC is still being worked on by our engineering team, in order to be ready for mass production.


Semiconductor fabs are absolutely fanatical about the consistency of their processes. It is most important thing they do. They want to make identical parts, day after day, week after week and year after year.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 26, 2015, 02:27:13 am

Their latest updated translated:

Quote

Dear Indiegogo Supporters,
Our team has been hard at work completing final development of Batteriser and moving into initial production.

Still don't have a working product even though we are at the end of the month it's supposed to ship, and we've been working on this for 3 years. It's seriously embaressing, we are supposed to be experts and the best in the business, and know more about batteries than every other engineer on the planet.

Quote

At this time, we have encountered a slight delay relating to the manufacturing of the Batteriser's integrated circuit (IC).

This is huge and there will be massive delays, but it would be foolish to admit that.

Quote

Our earlier proof of concept prototype IC could efficiently deliver 500 milliamps of steady state current.

We took everyone's money on the promise that the EE work had been done and we were ready to go into production. But that wasn't true.
(http://i.imgur.com/kMJxmvo.png)

Quote

However, as many applications need higher current driving capabilities, we modified our Integrated Circuit (IC) design to make it capable of the higher level of current driving capability.

We spend many years developing this and getting patents, and only now just realised this. We aren't very smart.

Quote

We expected our final IC to be ready and out of the fabrication facility (FAB) over a month ago. However, due to a drift in process parameters, the IC is still being worked on by our engineering team, in order to be ready for mass production.

It's really awesome to be able to blame IC production, and it sounds highly technical which is a nice bonus.

Quote

Fortunately, we have been working diligently with the FAB to address and fix the issues responsible for this delay, and we are anxiously waiting to receive our final IC in the coming weeks. We are committed to producing your Batterisers with the highest quality standards.

We have no real clue what we are doing, but we really care about you, the customer. This is a really good thing, trust us.

Quote

As you might recall, this is the last component necessary to start assembling and shipping Batterisers.

It's the only active component in the whole thing, and we should (and promised we) have perfected it years ago before the campaign even started. But we completely screwed up and only want to tell you now.

Quote

At this time, we will need to delay our estimated ship date, but we are doing everything possible to ship Batterisers to you and your family as soon as possible, and hopefully before Christmas.

There is no way in hell we can deliver before Christmas, but we care about you, so we are giving you some false hope.
We still have to get it re-tested and evaluated (without screwing up), get it FCC tested (something we forgot about before), get new pre-production prototypes made, evaluate and test them, then push the production button. All this really does take a lot of time, many many months, but you don't need to know that.
This buys us another month before we have to update you again.

Quote

As part of our commitment to shipping to our supporters as early as possible, we have already made arrangements to have the first production batch shipped via air from our manufacturing partners in Asia, therefore significantly expediting the overall shipping process. Although we will incur significantly more costs by air shipping, it will be well worth the reward of making our Indiegogo supporters happy.

We never had a hope in hell of ever meeting the shipping date, and don't want to ship you the 500mA units because that would mean people would be able to test it and we can't continue to claim that they are full of BS.

We aren't going to show you any photos of the 500mA chips we must have had made in order to meet the promised dates we have previously made, because, well, just because, ok.

Quote

We sinerely apologize for the delay and for any inconvenience it may cause you. We couldn't be more thankful for your support, and hope to have Batterisers in your hands as soon as possible! Thank you and please enjoy a wonderful Thanksgiving!

We still haven't found a huge retail chain like Walmart who are willing to buy these things to make us filthy rich. Nor have we have anyone we can sell the company to yet. But we certainly hope that will happen before we have to actually ship units!
We'll update you in another month and thank you for your support once again, and will wish you a merry xmas.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 26, 2015, 02:32:00 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on November 25, 2015, 09:58:14 pm

Quote from: jancumps on November 25, 2015, 08:29:53 pm

Doesn't that invalidate the FCC certifications?

They did the EMC test with a 1k load resistor. They can be pretty sure that the new IC will pass this test, too :-DD

Good point! No problem with FCC then  :-+
 :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 26, 2015, 02:34:08 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 25, 2015, 08:32:48 pm

So they have gone over a month since their last update when they were "working hard" with their 3rd party logistics to get them all out to investors, then another update a few weeks ago about them being almost ready, just needing final assembly, now to engineering and fabrication delays.  It seems kinda backwards to me, like these things should be announced in reverse order.

Which meant that they must have had 10's of thousands of the "500mA" chip already made and ready to go.
Why not ship some 500mA units for those that agree to take them?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 26, 2015, 02:40:21 am

Quote from: dexters_lab on November 25, 2015, 06:00:27 pm

well this comes as no surprise!
interesting though they do reveal the prototype had a maximum 500mA output limit

Which after 3 years of work on this by some of the best and experienced guys in the power business, a professor no less, and a holder of 500 patents no less, and raising serious VC money and producing fantastic  and impressive prototypes and forming a company to produce it, they now admit they have no clue what they were doing about the most basic spec on a product like this :palm:
Incredible, absolutely incredible.
They are laughing stock  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 26, 2015, 02:42:52 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on November 25, 2015, 07:56:55 pm

So, 5 days before everyone is meant to have them, they admit they don't even have a functioning unit?  :-DD

Yep, because couldn't even get a basic spec like maximum current right.
Comedy GOLD!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on November 26, 2015, 02:43:06 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 26, 2015, 02:27:13 am

Quote

At this time, we will need to delay our estimated ship date, but we are doing everything possible to ship Batterisers to you and your family as soon as possible, and hopefully before Christmas.

There is no way in hell we can deliver before Christmas, but we care about you, so we are giving you some false hope.

And dear customers just please check the Chinese holidays calendar and do not bother us until March

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on November 26, 2015, 02:47:46 am

Hi,
I identified some of these issues when I built my imitation Batteriser that is documented in these messages:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/?action=dlattach;attach=167537;image)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739648/#msg739648 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739648/#msg739648)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739968/#msg739968 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739968/#msg739968)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg740380/#msg740380 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg740380/#msg740380)

This was on August 26th, 3 months ago.

McBryce said at the time:

Quote from: McBryce on August 25, 2015, 01:35:20 pm

You do realise that you have already done more R&D on this than the Batteriser team managed in 5 years?

McBryce.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 26, 2015, 03:09:48 am

I'm still betting that in addition to the obvious tech problems, they have a problem with order volumes, as in their current order volume is an order of magnitude or more below what was expected and Batteroo's suppliers and CM have correspondingly raised their prices.  If Batteroo is genuinely using a custom IC, they may even not be able to come to terms with the MOQ necessary for a production run. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on November 26, 2015, 09:20:07 am

Quote from: dexters_lab on November 25, 2015, 06:00:27 pm

... shipped via air from our manufacturing partners in Asia, therefore significantly expediting the overall shipping process...

All their environmental claims just flew away.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brutte on November 26, 2015, 10:26:43 am

h) (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/msg730032/#msg730032) Sink the Batterizer with Roohparvar onboard, before the captain abandons ship.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: d-smes on November 26, 2015, 01:35:31 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on November 25, 2015, 11:06:30 pm

Maximum Power Theorem

The Maximum Power Theorem states that the maximum power will be delivered to the load when the load resistance (impedance) is equal in magnitude to the source resistance (impedance). In this case this happens when the load resistance is equal to the ESR. And at that point half the power is dissipated in the ESR and half in the load.

Observation

In order to get 1.5W from the cell, the cell must have greater than 70% of capacity left.

I thought max. power theorem was true only for linear circuits.  Once you insert a DC-DC boost converter, can't peak power be much higher for a given SOC?   Isn't this how Batteriser utilizes the "80% remaining capacity" in "dead" batteries?  Or is that your point?

If you add a ideal DC-DC converter to your simulation, does it show 800 u% (micro percent) more runtime?  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on November 26, 2015, 01:46:53 pm

Quote from: d-smes on November 26, 2015, 01:35:31 pm

I thought max. power theorem was true only for linear circuits.  Once you insert a DC-DC boost converter, can't peak power be much higher for a given SOC?

Imagine for a moment that the boost converter is just another part of the load - which it is, of course.

Meanwhile, the battery is still just a two terminal device, which we can model as a voltage source in series with a resistor.

The maximum power theory still applies to the battery, regardless of what the load consists of, and maximum power is still achieved when the equivalent resistance of the load equals the ESR of the battery.

Adding a dc-dc converter may well cause a different amount of current to be drawn from the battery under a given set of conditions than would be drawn without it, but it can't affect the maximum power that the battery is physically capable of providing.

It's also worth noting a consequence of the maximum power theory, which is that at max power, the system of [battery + load] is only delivering power with 50% efficiency, with the other 50% being wasted as heat in the battery. Drawing more power from the battery actually decreases the total energy available.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: helius on November 26, 2015, 02:08:38 pm

A boost voltage converter can increase the voltage going to the load, but not the power. It actually must reduce the maximum available power by switching losses. Accumulating charge in the converter circuit for power peaks won't help unless it's synchronous with the load, which rules out devices like the Batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 26, 2015, 09:00:43 pm

If the original design could only do 500ma at 1.5volt output... what input voltage would it have needed to even do the 500ma? Obviously, it wouldn't still do 500ma down to whatever voltage they claimed the butteriser to work down to...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on November 26, 2015, 09:24:29 pm

Quote from: helius on November 26, 2015, 02:08:38 pm

A boost voltage converter can increase the voltage going to the load, but not the power. It actually must reduce the maximum available power by switching losses. Accumulating charge in the converter circuit for power peaks won't help unless it's synchronous with the load, which rules out devices like the Batteriser.

That's simple, you can't increase the power only decrease it :)
1W at the output side? it will be a bit more than 1W on the input side :)

So for 1W, if the battery is at 0.8V you will need at least 1.25A to provide 1W on the other side :)  (a bit more in fact as there is some loss during the step-up conversion process :))

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 26, 2015, 11:07:06 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on November 26, 2015, 09:00:43 pm

If the original design could only do 500ma at 1.5volt output... what input voltage would it have needed to even do the 500ma? Obviously, it wouldn't still do 500ma down to whatever voltage they claimed the butteriser to work down to...

Of course not, it's going to have a performance envelope with every other DC-DC converter.
500mA out @ 1.5V requires 1.25A from the battery at the lowest 0.6V input voltage it can work down to, not including converter losses that will likely be 20% at least at that current, so 1.5A.
And if you think a AA can sustain that current at 0.6V you are delusional.
Batteriser haven't even got the most rudimentary clue about battery product design. They are driven by this unobtainable utopian goal that you can magically get power out over the full performance envelope.
This is why they will never release the efficiency curves, let alone the efficiency curves over the full current performance envelope, because they know the results will be shit and they have to admit the Batteriser is nothing more than a niche use product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on November 27, 2015, 12:58:36 am

I am curious to know what sort of effect on ESR and battery chemistry there will be when multiple butterisers are used in series, each effectively using the batteries as a heatsink.  Sure, at low power the heat generation will be marginal, but on higher loads surely there will be a significant temperature increase? Wont this just make things even worse?

and how do series connect dc-dc converters even behave in terms of voltage rail noise?  2 in series probably isn't much, but...... 4? .....6?  or even the 8 in my RC car?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on November 27, 2015, 01:00:04 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 27, 2015, 12:58:36 am

I am curious to know what sort of effect on ESR and battery chemistry there will be when multiple butterisers are used in series, each effectively using the batteries as a heatsink.  Sure, at low power the heat generation will be marginal, but on higher loads surely there will be a significant temperature increase? Wont this just make things even worse?

and how do series connect dc-dc converters even behave in terms of voltage rail noise?  2 in series probably isn't much, but...... 4? .....6?  or even the 8 in my RC car?

I'm sorry for the noobish questions



edit....whoa, what happened then. the forum saved my edit as a new post.  feel free to delete.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on November 27, 2015, 01:41:12 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 27, 2015, 01:00:04 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 27, 2015, 12:58:36 am

I am curious to know what sort of effect on ESR and battery chemistry there will be when multiple butterisers are used in series, each effectively using the batteries as a heatsink.  Sure, at low power the heat generation will be marginal, but on higher loads surely there will be a significant temperature increase? Wont this just make things even worse?

and how do series connect dc-dc converters even behave in terms of voltage rail noise?  2 in series probably isn't much, but...... 4? .....6?  or even the 8 in my RC car?

I'm sorry for the noobish questions



edit....whoa, what happened then. the forum saved my edit as a new post.  feel free to delete.

Seriously, it's not a bad question at all, and I think we already discuss about that here in this same topic, but the idea is that it may fail miserably, with the noise generated & co.
But I don't know if some people ever done something like that before: putting DC2DC converter in series, so it maybe worth to try for science.. :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on November 27, 2015, 01:55:10 am

Quote from: Godzil on November 27, 2015, 01:41:12 am

Seriously, it's not a bad question at all, and I think we already discuss about that here in this same topic, but the idea is that it may fail miserably, with the noise generated & co.
But I don't know if some people ever done something like that before: putting DC2DC converter in series, so it maybe worth to try for science.. :D

honestly, I find it difficult to follow this 222page thread.  Dyslexia is my enemy here.  Takes me a long time to read things and sort out the jumbled mess my brain sees.  Ill try searching again for the answer to my questions :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on November 27, 2015, 04:17:29 am

Well, the heat generated in the ESR of the cell will help activate the chemical reactions in the cell, allowing it to deliver more power up to a point. The failure will be when the cell reaches 70C internal temperature, which will melt the internal plastic separators and cause the cell to short out. Will not be spectacular like a lithium cell, but will dump the hot alkaline electrolyte and depolariser in a stream of hot liquid and steam, though the batteriser PCB on the cell will survive the lower cell batteriser will not.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on November 27, 2015, 06:29:53 am

Oh!
Batteriser has "unexpected" delays ?
I'm so SHOCKED by that news....

Now I can go in rage and put to trash the 30 empty AA cells that I kept only to suck out the 800% of marketing wank :)))

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 27, 2015, 10:48:05 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 27, 2015, 12:58:36 am

Sure, at low power the heat generation will be marginal, but on higher loads surely there will be a significant temperature increase?

It all depends on how efficient the Batteriser is.

Assuming they're not lying on the GPS test then Batteriser is close to 90% efficient at GPS current levels.

How does that scale at higher currents? That's the only thing we don't know about the Batteriser. It's not impossible that it will scale to 1 Amp and maintain a reasonable efficiency - other people make chips can do that.

At 1A current your batteries are going to get quite warm with or without the Batterizer, so...  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on November 27, 2015, 11:25:38 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 27, 2015, 01:00:04 am

edit....whoa, what happened then. the forum saved my edit as a new post.  feel free to delete.

You sure you didn't click "Quote" instead of "Edit". I do it ALL the time. You can also delete your own posts.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on November 27, 2015, 12:48:49 pm

Hi Group,

Maximum Power Point Measurement - Duracell AA

I have just finished an experiment to measure the Maximum Power Point of a Duracell AA cell.

Procedure

A HP6060A electronic load and HP3478A DMM were controlled using HPIB.

The cell was discharged using a constant current of 200mA for 30 minutes, 100 mAh.

Then the load was switched to Constant Resistance mode and the load resistance was stepped from 1 Ohm to 0.2 Ohms in 50m Ohm steps.

After the sweep to determine the maximum power, the load was returned to constant current. Then the cycle was repeated until the battery was depleted.

The cell voltage and current was measured at each step. The load power was calculated. The results were stored in a CSV file for analysis.


Maximum Power Point Results

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=184055;image)

This graph shows the maximum power that can be extracted from the cell at each step. The horizontal axis is the load resistance required to extract that power.

This is the absolute maximum power that can be extracted.

So to get 1.5V at 1A the battery must have been discharged by less than 300mAh (which is about 15%)

It doesn't matter what the Batteriser guys do, they can not exceed the power available from this set of curves.

This graph shows what is happening during a single MPPT sweep, this is after the cell was discharged by 200 mAh:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=184057;image)

To get 1.5W you need draw about 2.2A from 0.7V, and at this point 1.5W will dissipated in the cell.


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 28, 2015, 05:44:32 am

The numbers of backers on the campaign has gone down...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on November 28, 2015, 06:21:41 am

Batteriser - the perfect Christmas gift for creationists and over-unity followers.
Order now, you should receive yours in time (the day after the apocalypse).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on November 30, 2015, 01:08:22 pm

It's now the #9 Gadget in CNN's top 36 gadgets of the year...
http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html (http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on November 30, 2015, 01:14:49 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on November 30, 2015, 01:08:22 pm

It's now the #9 Gadget in CNN's top 36 gadgets of the year...
http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html (http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html)

FFS.  Does no media outlet bother to do even the slightest bit of fact checking?
I thought CNN were a proper news outfit, yet they state as fact that AA batteries have 80% energy remaining when they stop working. Arrrghhhh!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on November 30, 2015, 01:20:03 pm

Quote from: Delta on November 30, 2015, 01:14:49 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on November 30, 2015, 01:08:22 pm

It's now the #9 Gadget in CNN's top 36 gadgets of the year...
http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html (http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html)

FFS.  Does no media outlet bother to do even the slightest bit of fact checking?
I thought CNN were a proper news outfit, yet they state as fact that AA batteries have 80% energy remaining when they stop working. Arrrghhhh!

Something gives me the feeling that Batteroo paid them...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on November 30, 2015, 01:40:49 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on November 30, 2015, 01:08:22 pm

It's now the #9 Gadget in CNN's top 36 gadgets of the year...
http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html (http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html)

The comments are pretty scathing  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on November 30, 2015, 01:58:47 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on November 30, 2015, 01:20:03 pm

Quote from: Delta on November 30, 2015, 01:14:49 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on November 30, 2015, 01:08:22 pm

It's now the #9 Gadget in CNN's top 36 gadgets of the year...
http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html (http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html)

FFS.  Does no media outlet bother to do even the slightest bit of fact checking?
I thought CNN were a proper news outfit, yet they state as fact that AA batteries have 80% energy remaining when they stop working. Arrrghhhh!

Something gives me the feeling that Batteroo paid them...

I always suppose that. I see most media incomes are by advertising, disguised as news or not.

Delta: Do you still trust in media? You have a really bad problem, I into even worse than all the issues Batteriser victims are going to have into one person. Please be think a lot more critical even if gives you problems at short place, you'll find this world is full of lies and stupidity!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JoeO on November 30, 2015, 02:23:32 pm

Quote from: Delta on November 30, 2015, 01:14:49 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on November 30, 2015, 01:08:22 pm

It's now the #9 Gadget in CNN's top 36 gadgets of the year...
http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html (http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html)

FFS.  Does no media outlet bother to do even the slightest bit of fact checking?
I thought CNN were a proper news outfit, yet they state as fact that AA batteries have 80% energy remaining when they stop working. Arrrghhhh!

CNN is not a good news outlet.  They are on par with the Daily Mail.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on November 30, 2015, 03:33:39 pm

I trust what the media say with a grain of salt. A buddy of mine pointed the ad out to me. I just had to share how desprate they are getting! xD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on November 30, 2015, 04:14:03 pm

CNN Chicken Noodle News. Only good thing was the first Gulf war coverage, at least for us in the same time zone, it made for a good few interesting tea times and lunchtime viewing, mostly comparing how the systems worked, or just how badly some pilots were at hitting a static target.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on November 30, 2015, 05:52:25 pm

Quote from: SeanB on November 30, 2015, 04:14:03 pm

CNN Chicken Noodle News. Only good thing was the first Gulf war coverage, at least for us in the same time zone, it made for a good few interesting tea times and lunchtime viewing, mostly comparing how the systems worked, or just how badly some pilots were at hitting a static target.

What a disgusting comment, interesting tea time while thousands of people are getting killed  :--

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on November 30, 2015, 06:38:41 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on November 30, 2015, 05:52:25 pm

Quote from: SeanB on November 30, 2015, 04:14:03 pm

CNN Chicken Noodle News. Only good thing was the first Gulf war coverage, at least for us in the same time zone, it made for a good few interesting tea times and lunchtime viewing, mostly comparing how the systems worked, or just how badly some pilots were at hitting a static target.

What a disgusting comment, interesting tea time while thousands of people are getting killed  :--

Military, unlike the Dutch we actually did have a war on at the time. Only thing we were grateful for was that SA has no oil fields, so we are safe from US invasion.  I worked next door to the plant that supplied Saddam with some of his weapons, and those worryingly are still mostly unaccounted for, along with a lot of the money.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: RFZ on December 01, 2015, 07:58:24 am

Just got an email from the batteriser team ;)

Quote

(...) At this time, we have encountered a slight delay relating to the manufacturing of the Batteriser's integrated circuit (IC).

Our earlier proof of concept prototype IC could efficiently deliver 500 milliamps of steady state current. However, as many applications need higher current driving capabilities, we modified our Integrated Circuit (IC) design to make it capable of the higher level of current driving capability. We expected our final IC to be ready and out of the fabrication facility (FAB) over a month ago. However, due to a drift in process parameters, the IC is still being worked on by our engineering team, in order to be ready for mass production. Fortunately, we have been working diligently with the FAB to address and fix the issues responsible for this delay, and we are anxiously waiting to receive our final IC in the coming weeks. We are committed to producing your Batterisers with the highest quality standards. (...)

So, long story short: Their prototype can only deliver 500mA and and they don't have an IC ready for production :clap:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 01, 2015, 08:17:36 am

Quote from: RFZ on December 01, 2015, 07:58:24 am

Just got an email from the batteriser team ;)

Nice, a backer. When you get one, please measure the efficiency for different battery voltages and currents, and how long devices run with and without it. And of course, use only batteries, because Dr. Bob Roohparvar told us you can't use a PSU to do these tests :-DD Or send me one, I can do this, too.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: station240 on December 01, 2015, 08:41:55 am

Quote from: RFZ on December 01, 2015, 07:58:24 am

Just got an email from the batteriser team ;)

So, long story short: Their prototype can only deliver 500mA and and they don't have an IC ready for production :clap:

Easy solution, just replace the silicon die with a copper slug, no more limited current, and most of their customers won't notice anyway.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 01, 2015, 08:51:45 am

Quote from: RFZ on December 01, 2015, 07:58:24 am

Just got an email from the batteriser team ;)

Quote

(...) At this time, we have encountered a slight delay relating to the manufacturing of the Batteriser's integrated circuit (IC).

Our earlier proof of concept prototype IC could efficiently deliver 500 milliamps of steady state current. However, as many applications need higher current driving capabilities, we modified our Integrated Circuit (IC)

So, long story short: Their prototype can only deliver 500mA and and they don't have an IC ready for production :clap:

And they only figured this out the week before they were supposed to deliver? What exactly were they doing for the other five years...?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on December 01, 2015, 09:44:25 am

...Working out the best strategy to sell a flawed product to potential investors and the general public. That takes some doing.

500mA at 1.5V, delivered by an IC perched on top of a AAA battery would be quite an achievement. I don't believe they have managed that either. Show us the evidence, Batteroo.  ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 01, 2015, 09:46:40 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on December 01, 2015, 09:44:25 am

...Working out the best strategy to sell a flawed product to potential investors and the general public. That takes some doing.

Not to mention massaging the buttocks of venture capitalists. That's exhausting work.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 01, 2015, 10:27:37 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 01, 2015, 08:51:45 am

Quote from: RFZ on December 01, 2015, 07:58:24 am

Just got an email from the batteriser team ;)

Quote

(...) At this time, we have encountered a slight delay relating to the manufacturing of the Batteriser's integrated circuit (IC).

Our earlier proof of concept prototype IC could efficiently deliver 500 milliamps of steady state current. However, as many applications need higher current driving capabilities, we modified our Integrated Circuit (IC)

So, long story short: Their prototype can only deliver 500mA and and they don't have an IC ready for production :clap:

And they only figured this out the week before they were supposed to deliver? What exactly were they doing for the other five years...?

My highlighting. That means that they lied on their Indiegogo campaign when they said they had done all the R&D and were headed into production. No mention at all about a "proof of concept" "prototype" IC.
Heck, they even claimed they had "pre-production" prototypes before the campaign. And with those they didn't notice it could only do 500mA? Wow, just wow.
(http://i.imgur.com/kMJxmvo.png)

They flat out lied and have come'a'gutsa!  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on December 01, 2015, 10:28:47 am

Quote from: RFZ on December 01, 2015, 07:58:24 am

Just got an email from the batteriser team ;)
So, long story short: Their prototype can only deliver 500mA and and they don't have an IC ready for production :clap:

I see the next message from them coming:
The high power version draws more quiescent current, therefore the benefit from the Batteriser is lower. To avoid a further delay they will ship the high power version and use this as an excuse why the test results from users differ from the ones shown by Batteriser.

But there will be many other problems causing delays until they will ship the Batterisers (if that will ever happen).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Joule Thief on December 01, 2015, 10:33:15 am

one day this is all going to end and I will have to find something else to read with my morning coffee  :popcorn:

it is a shame as I have learned a great deal from all the responses

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 01, 2015, 10:35:12 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 01, 2015, 08:17:36 am

And of course, use only batteries, because Dr. Bob Roohparvar told us you can't use a PSU to do these tests :-DD

Of course, everyone knows that a PSU is only good in those rare niche cases when the product has capacitive filtering and draws so little heavy battery pulse current that it's not a problem. So few modern products do that ::)  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 01, 2015, 10:37:13 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 01, 2015, 10:27:37 am

My highlighting. That means that they lied on their Indiegogo campaign when they said they had done all the R&D and were headed into production. No mention at all about a "proof of concept" "prototype" IC.
Heck, they even claimed they had "pre-production" prototypes before the campaign. And with those they didn't notice it could only do 500mA? Wow, just wow.
http://i.imgur.com/kMJxmvo.png (http://i.imgur.com/kMJxmvo.png)

They flat out lied and have come'a'gutsa!  :-DD

You can still report the campaign, even though its ended.

and I have...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 01, 2015, 10:38:10 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 01, 2015, 10:35:12 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 01, 2015, 08:17:36 am

And of course, use only batteries, because Dr. Bob Roohparvar told us you can't use a PSU to do these tests :-DD

Of course, everyone knows that a PSU is only good in those rare niche cases when the product has capacitive filtering and draws so little heavy battery pulse current that it's not a problem. So few modern products do that ::)  :palm:

Speaking of which, i know the Golf GPS was comprehensively busted, but did anyone scope the battery voltage on the product terminals  to see if it matched the waveform (that I think was) shown in Batteroo's last snail video?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Artlav on December 01, 2015, 10:52:21 am

500mA, hm?
That reminds me of something...
Could it be that Dave is to blame for Batteriser (by long haul logic)?
Could it be that the guys behind it got their "inspiration" from watched this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V_p1GBH4pk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V_p1GBH4pk)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on December 01, 2015, 10:53:54 am

I know that's not directly batteroo related, but some of you may have followed the "RetroVGS" story, and I've recently see this reposted video from this pseudo project:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzJb22Buvbk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzJb22Buvbk)

When I watched it I was unable to not think about another video that one of our beloved (or not) company had done.
I am the only one to see a full setup table full of lots of electronic stuff that are here just to tell "look we have an electronic lab!!!!! incredible!"
The show of "prototypes" that are basically not prototypes, trying to fool people with something which is not a real product, nor does what.
A real PSU, and lots of explaination about something else and not the product itself....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on December 01, 2015, 11:40:45 am

Quote from: Joule Thief on December 01, 2015, 10:33:15 am

one day this is all going to end and I will have to find something else to read with my morning coffee  :popcorn:

it is a shame as I have learned a great deal from all the responses

Nothing lasts forever, not even a Batterizer thread with 800% more posts.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: RFZ on December 01, 2015, 11:42:54 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 01, 2015, 08:17:36 am

Nice, a backer. When you get one, please measure the efficiency for different battery voltages and currents, and how long devices run with and without it. And of course, use only batteries, because Dr. Bob Roohparvar told us you can't use a PSU to do these tests :-DD Or send me one, I can do this, too.

What did you think I've ordered them for?  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 01, 2015, 12:03:19 pm

I predict another burglary at Batteroo's head office but this time the intruders will return everything they took after the realisation that it was of no value, most burglars are intelligent enough to pick a target with a decent prospect of reward, they got done like a dinner on this one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on December 01, 2015, 12:55:53 pm

Quote from: RFZ on December 01, 2015, 07:58:24 am

Just got an email from the batteriser team ;)

Quote

(...) At this time, we have encountered a slight delay relating to the manufacturing of the Batteriser's integrated circuit (IC).

Our earlier proof of concept prototype IC could efficiently deliver 500 milliamps of steady state current. However, as many applications need higher current driving capabilities, we modified our Integrated Circuit (IC) design to make it capable of the higher level of current driving capability. We expected our final IC to be ready and out of the fabrication facility (FAB) over a month ago. However, due to a drift in process parameters, the IC is still being worked on by our engineering team, in order to be ready for mass production. Fortunately, we have been working diligently with the FAB to address and fix the issues responsible for this delay, and we are anxiously waiting to receive our final IC in the coming weeks. We are committed to producing your Batterisers with the highest quality standards. (...)

So, long story short: Their prototype can only deliver 500mA and and they don't have an IC ready for production :clap:

I think they are trying to impress us with that technobabble.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on December 01, 2015, 01:23:00 pm

Quote from: RFZ on December 01, 2015, 07:58:24 am

Just got an email from the batteriser team ;)

Quote

(...) At this time, we have encountered a slight delay relating to the manufacturing of the Batteriser's integrated circuit (IC).

Our earlier proof of concept prototype IC could efficiently deliver 500 milliamps of steady state current. However, as many applications need higher current driving capabilities, we modified our Integrated Circuit (IC) design to make it capable of the higher level of current driving capability. We expected our final IC to be ready and out of the fabrication facility (FAB) over a month ago. However, due to a drift in process parameters, the IC is still being worked on by our engineering team, in order to be ready for mass production. Fortunately, we have been working diligently with the FAB to address and fix the issues responsible for this delay, and we are anxiously waiting to receive our final IC in the coming weeks. We are committed to producing your Batterisers with the highest quality standards. (...)

So, long story short: Their prototype can only deliver 500mA and and they don't have an IC ready for production :clap:

It is actually worse than that. In reply 3330 in this thread I showed that, because of the maximum power theorem, it is impossible to meet their target specification of 1.5V at 1A from anything but a fresh cell.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on December 01, 2015, 01:32:21 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 01, 2015, 10:27:37 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 01, 2015, 08:51:45 am

Quote from: RFZ on December 01, 2015, 07:58:24 am

Just got an email from the batteriser team ;)

Quote

(...) At this time, we have encountered a slight delay relating to the manufacturing of the Batteriser's integrated circuit (IC).

Our earlier proof of concept prototype IC could efficiently deliver 500 milliamps of steady state current. However, as many applications need higher current driving capabilities, we modified our Integrated Circuit (IC)

So, long story short: Their prototype can only deliver 500mA and and they don't have an IC ready for production :clap:

And they only figured this out the week before they were supposed to deliver? What exactly were they doing for the other five years...?

My highlighting. That means that they lied on their Indiegogo campaign when they said they had done all the R&D and were headed into production. No mention at all about a "proof of concept" "prototype" IC.
Heck, they even claimed they had "pre-production" prototypes before the campaign. And with those they didn't notice it could only do 500mA? Wow, just wow.
(http://i.imgur.com/kMJxmvo.png)

They flat out lied and have come'a'gutsa!  :-DD

Maybe it's just me, but judging from the lab setup they showed with Probes the Monkey and the GPS test, it seems doubtful they'd be capable of getting into chip design, or even be able to adequately specify the requirements to a third party. Something's definitely not adding up.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on December 01, 2015, 01:46:49 pm

 :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on December 01, 2015, 01:53:39 pm

Quote from: Howardlong on December 01, 2015, 01:32:21 pm

Something's definitely not adding up.

I think that most people on this forum figured that out 3000+ posts ago.

Maybe its time to lock this thread until Batteriser deliver an actual product or the heat death of the universe occurs, whichever comes sooner  ;D

(My money's on the heat death of the universe)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 01, 2015, 02:16:19 pm

Quote from: Howardlong on December 01, 2015, 01:32:21 pm

Maybe it's just me, but judging from the lab setup they showed with Probes the Monkey and the GPS test, it seems doubtful they'd be capable of getting into chip design, or even be able to adequately specify the requirements to a third party. Something's definitely not adding up.

Actually it was quite clear from the beginning, it's either the Dunning–Kruger effect or a deliberate scam.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on December 01, 2015, 05:19:51 pm

Quote from: madires on December 01, 2015, 02:16:19 pm

Actually it was quite clear from the beginning, it's either the Dunning–Kruger effect or a deliberate scam.

The only question at this time is probably how they want to get out of this mess, without having to deal with a huge court battle.
It is no question in my mind that it is a scam.
They just did not expect real technical people to be interested in what they are doing and they probably expected to quietly get away with it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 01, 2015, 08:22:12 pm

Quote from: Howardlong on December 01, 2015, 01:32:21 pm

Maybe it's just me, but judging from the lab setup they showed with Probes the Monkey and the GPS test, it seems doubtful they'd be capable of getting into chip design, or even be able to adequately specify the requirements to a third party. Something's definitely not adding up.

Yes, that was my point several hundred pages ago.

Why would they need to set up an obviously fake 'workbench'? Don't they have one in their office? Surely somebody with that many patents has a workshop somewhere that they could use.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on December 01, 2015, 11:40:17 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on December 01, 2015, 12:55:53 pm

Quote from: RFZ on December 01, 2015, 07:58:24 am

Just got an email from the batteriser team ;)

Quote

(...) At this time, we have encountered a slight delay relating to the manufacturing of the Batteriser's integrated circuit (IC).

Heeyyyyyy!! It's not just an IC ! it's a Batteriser IC, so a BIC!

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/03-BICcristal2008-03-26.jpg) !!!

(it there is anyway to resize an external image with the bbcode here?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on December 01, 2015, 11:49:44 pm

Quote from: Godzil on December 01, 2015, 11:40:17 pm

Heeyyyyyy!! It's not just an IC ! it's a Batteriser IC, so a BIC!

At least that BIC performs as advertised, which more than can be said about the Batteriser  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on December 02, 2015, 12:10:17 am

Buy a Fisher Space Pen - they perform 800% better than a BIC.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 02, 2015, 01:38:08 am

BIC also includes multi-lingual word processing and LH/RH use without modification.  What can Batteriser do?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on December 02, 2015, 01:56:19 am

Quote from: SL4P on December 02, 2015, 01:38:08 am

BIC also includes multi-lingual word processing and LH/RH use without modification.  What can Batteriser do?

Only speaking for myself here, but the left hand performance of the BIC is significantly worse than the right hand, which is also actually pretty terrible. 

Don't even get me started on the BIC's Spanish.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on December 02, 2015, 03:20:37 am

Quote from: Smokey on December 02, 2015, 01:56:19 am

Quote from: SL4P on December 02, 2015, 01:38:08 am

BIC also includes multi-lingual word processing and LH/RH use without modification.  What can Batteriser do?

Only speaking for myself here, but the left hand performance of the BIC is significantly worse than the right hand, which is also actually pretty terrible. 

Don't even get me started on the BIC's Spanish.....

Operator Error... (This will be Batterisers excuse to why their products don't work as said...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 02, 2015, 03:23:02 am

Just wondering whether Batteroo will include protection for multiple batterisers loaded in reverse polarity? 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on December 02, 2015, 03:33:06 am

Quote from: SL4P on December 02, 2015, 03:23:02 am

Just wondering whether Batteroo will include protection for multiple batterisers loaded in reverse polarity?

And what will happen if one installs a Batteriser in a device that draws too much current? I.e., how will it fail?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 02, 2015, 06:11:46 am

Quote from: WN1X on December 02, 2015, 03:33:06 am

Quote from: SL4P on December 02, 2015, 03:23:02 am

Just wondering whether Batteroo will include protection for multiple batterisers loaded in reverse polarity?

And what will happen if one installs a Batteriser in a device that draws too much current? I.e., how will it fail?

It's UL tested, that means it has a proper thermal shutdown.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 02, 2015, 07:03:55 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 02, 2015, 06:11:46 am

It's UL tested, that means it has a proper thermal shutdown.

It is NOT UL certified or safety tested in any way.  There hasn't really been any real data of any kind published, including any safety test data.

Who knows if it has what we would call proper safety circuitry but most chips like this have overcurrent and/or overtemperature protection circuitry like you would expect in any regulator.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ErikTheNorwegian on December 02, 2015, 07:26:36 am

Quote from: drussell on December 02, 2015, 07:03:55 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 02, 2015, 06:11:46 am

It's UL tested, that means it has a proper thermal shutdown.

It is NOT UL certified or safety tested in any way.  There hasn't really been any real data of any kind published, including any safety test data.

Who knows if it has what we would call proper safety circuitry but most chips like this have overcurrent and/or overtemperature protection circuitry like you would expect in any regulator.

There is No finised product to test.. So how can they Chaim UL certification when they have not finised a production item to delivery for test?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 03, 2015, 01:22:27 am

I've never seen a thread as active as this one - but it's not hard to understand why.  Apologies ... but I'm not reading through 226 pages to catch up.

It's easy to see the proponents have taken an engineering concept, attempted to create a marketable product and hyped it to the wazoo.  They are making their case with a principle, not with a real product.  What is more troubling with this product is that the principle is, in itself, sound - and that's the position they take in any defence - but it's the practical implementation that is fraught with problems.

I'm no design engineer, but I would consider designing such a circuit for a known environment where the battery and load were specified would be problematic enough, let alone for a consumer market where the range of batteries and devices spans a spectacular and diverse array of parameters.  And 800%...?  I would like them to provide ONE reproducible demonstration - if they can.


On the other hand, maybe they've developed some components using room temperature superconductors that addresses the issue of losses?  If so, it is refreshing to see such a breakthrough delivered to consumers, rather than the pomp and circumstance of Nobel Prizes, military and aerospace applications and other revolutionary impacts.

Yeah, right.


Personally - IF the device ever gets to market, I am REALLY looking forward to Dave's tear-up ... er ... tear down.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 03, 2015, 11:06:51 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 03, 2015, 01:22:27 am

It's easy to see the proponents have taken an engineering concept, attempted to create a marketable product and hyped it to the wazoo.  They are making their case with a principle, not with a real product.  What is more troubling with this product is that the principle is, in itself, sound

No it isn't Consumer devices are NOT leaving most of their capacity unused.

The problem that Batterizer is claiming to solve is a figment of somebody's imagination.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: coppice on December 03, 2015, 11:23:23 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 03, 2015, 01:22:27 am

It's easy to see the proponents have taken an engineering concept, attempted to create a marketable product and hyped it to the wazoo.  They are making their case with a principle, not with a real product.  What is more troubling with this product is that the principle is, in itself, sound - and that's the position they take in any defence - but it's the practical implementation that is fraught with problems.

Wow, you really missed the point. Nobody is really attacking the product. They haven't seen it. Its the priciple which is bogus. Only a handful of poorly designed products leave a substantial portion of a battery's energy unused.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 03, 2015, 11:31:15 am

@ Brumby

Irrespective of any product that this mob may or may not get to market do yourself a favour and take a deeper look into some of their unscrupulous, defamatory and at times threatening behaviour.

Those that have either participated in or followed the saga from the beginning know exactly what these XXXXX are capable of, outrageous and inexcusable in anybodys language.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on December 03, 2015, 11:51:58 am

Quote from: Delta on November 30, 2015, 01:14:49 pm

FFS.  Does no media outlet bother to do even the slightest bit of fact checking?
I thought CNN were a proper news outfit, ...

Seems like your media checking was kind of bad before :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 03, 2015, 12:00:21 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on December 03, 2015, 11:31:15 am

@ Brumby

Irrespective of any product that this mob may or may not get to market do yourself a favour and take a deeper look into some of their unscrupulous, defamatory and at times threatening behaviour.

Those that have either participated in or followed the saga from the beginning know exactly what these XXXXX are capable of, outrageous and inexcusable in anybodys language.

Yep. These are not well-intentioned people who are making an honest mistake.

They know Batterizer doesn't work. That makes them a bunch of scammers who are deliberately planning to take other people's money under false pretenses.

That, all the name calling, the buying of down-votes on Dave's videos, the fake demos given to magazines....let's call a spade a spade. The people at Batteroo are common criminals.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 03, 2015, 01:13:36 pm

I beg to differ.

The principle, in the fundamental sense of physics, is sound - in that it is extracting demonstrable energy from a battery (or, more correctly, cell) that has fallen below some 'operational threshold'.  As a simple demonstration, if you take such a cell and short it out, you will get some heating - will you not?  It won't be much, nor very useful and it will not last long - but you have extracted some energy.  Tell me I'm wrong.  This, then, demonstrates the principle has validity.  IMHO this is a point that MUST be conceded (even if quietly in one's own mind).  If not, then you are just trying to sidestep the argument from the Batteriser camp - and they know that they can debate on this point because it is obvious.

It's the practical implementation that is bogus.  I repeat ... the problem is with the practical implementation.  There's no question some energy is there - just how to get it and how much can you get?

When I was watching Dave's video on the subject, I found myself nodding through each and every point - as the Batteriser claims and engineering in the real (practical) world clearly had a lot of distance between them.  I could throw out a couple of thoughts on some of the points - but I wouldn't be saying anything Dave hasn't already covered.

But I predict that, should the Batteriser come to market, one TV advertisement will be an electronic device that stops from 'dead' batteries, where the batteries are removed, Batteriser(s) fitted and replaced with the device springing back to life.  I know it's rather obvious, but if (IF?!!) they pick the right device and batteries, it will appear stunning in a 15 or even 30 second Ad.

Advertisement #2 would be to answer the critics who claim the batteries recovered enough during their period of removal (and possibly assisted by heating from studio lights and/or being handled by warm hands) would be to have two identical setups where both sets of batteries were removed for the same time and, when replaced, the Batteriser device ran to the end of the Ad while the other died in a couple of seconds.


I would like to reiterate a comment I read above - that putting the Batteriser onto a fresh battery will result in a reduction, not increase, of battery life.

But, to be fair an unbiased, we should really wait until the product is available so it could be independently assessed.  Even then, when it is shown just how much hype has been used, there will still be the 'believers' - and to those people, I would like to offer one of my special bulldog clips that when placed on your spark plug leads will improve mileage, decrease emissions and clear up acne.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on December 03, 2015, 01:17:11 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 03, 2015, 01:13:36 pm

I beg to differ.

The principle, in the fundamental sense of physics, is sound - in that it is extracting demonstrable energy from a battery (or, more correctly, cell) that has fallen below some 'operational threshold'.  As a simple demonstration, if you take such a cell and short it out, you will get some heating - will you not?  It won't be much, nor very useful and it will not last long - but you have extracted some energy.  Tell me I'm wrong.  This, then, demonstrates the principle has validity.  IMHO this is a point that MUST be conceded (even if quietly in one's own mind).  If not, then you are just trying to sidestep the argument from the Batteriser camp - and they know that they can debate on this point because it is obvious.

It's the practical implementation that is bogus.  I repeat ... the problem is with the practical implementation.  There's no question some energy is there - just how to get it and how much can you get?

When I was watching Dave's video on the subject, I found myself nodding through each and every point - as the Batteriser claims and engineering in the real (practical) world clearly had a lot of distance between them.  I could throw out a couple of thoughts on some of the points - but I wouldn't be saying anything Dave hasn't already covered.

But I predict that, should the Batteriser come to market, one TV advertisement will be an electronic device that stops from 'dead' batteries, where the batteries are removed, Batteriser(s) fitted and replaced with the device springing back to life.  I know it's rather obvious, but if (IF?!!) they pick the right device and batteries, it will appear stunning in a 15 or even 30 second Ad.

Advertisement #2 would be to answer the critics who claim the batteries recovered enough during their period of removal (and possibly assisted by heating from studio lights and/or being handled by warm hands) would be to have two identical setups where both sets of batteries were removed for the same time and, when replaced, the Batteriser device ran to the end of the Ad while the other died in a couple of seconds.


I would like to reiterate a comment I read above - that putting the Batteriser onto a fresh battery will result in a reduction, not increase, of battery life.

But, to be fair an unbiased, we should really wait until the product is available so it could be independently assessed.  Even then, when it is shown just how much hype has been used, there will still be the 'believers' - and to those people, I would like to offer one of my special bulldog clips that when placed on your spark plug leads will improve mileage, decrease emissions and clear up acne.

I know you were not going to read the 226 pages, but all's been covered before. Maybe you should?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 03, 2015, 01:21:02 pm

As for the tactics and so on - that is not what I was addressing.  I've seen some of the material they've spouted and I have no misgivings about their intent.

What I was trying to do was separate the emotion from the science.

If all your challenges are tainted by any sort of emotional attack, then you are just giving them something to use to discredit whatever else is said.  It's bad enough that they invent crap and tell porkies - but when someone jumps in with any sort of 'outburst' they can claim 'victimisation' ... and they can use that as an example.

And they are.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 03, 2015, 01:23:35 pm

Quote from: jancumps on December 03, 2015, 01:17:11 pm

I know you were not going to read the 226 pages, but all's been covered before. Maybe you should?

That's a fair criticism.

It would probably be more appropriate for me to step back at this point - but I will be interested to follow the topic.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: grumpydoc on December 03, 2015, 02:02:29 pm

Quote from: Godzil on December 01, 2015, 11:40:17 pm

(it there is anyway to resize an external image with the bbcode here?)

[img width=<number_of_pixels>]http://........[/img]

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 03, 2015, 04:31:37 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 03, 2015, 01:13:36 pm

There's no question some energy is there

Right.

Quote from: Brumby on December 03, 2015, 01:13:36 pm

how much can you get?

Short version: "Bugger all".

Most devices can work down to 1.0V or less and at that point there's so little energy left it simply isn't worth trying to get it.

Long version: The rest of this thread where it's been covered plenty of times in multiple different proofs and experiments.

Quote from: Brumby on December 03, 2015, 01:13:36 pm

one TV advertisement will be an electronic device that stops from 'dead' batteries, where the batteries are removed, Batteriser(s) fitted and replaced with the device springing back to life

Yes, that is the first video on their web site (Apple keyboard) and also the exact demo they went around doing to magazines earlier this year (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on December 03, 2015, 05:06:17 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 03, 2015, 01:21:02 pm

As for the tactics and so on - that is not what I was addressing.  I've seen some of the material they've spouted and I have no misgivings about their intent.

What I was trying to do was separate the emotion from the science.

If all your challenges are tainted by any sort of emotional attack, then you are just giving them something to use to discredit whatever else is said.  It's bad enough that they invent crap and tell porkies - but when someone jumps in with any sort of 'outburst' they can claim 'victimisation' ... and they can use that as an example.

And they are.

No one on this forum (as far as I can recall) has ever disputed the underlying physical principles behind the Batteriser device (buck boost converter). What has been disputed are the claims that Batteroo are (still) making (see attached image).

As to character assassination, the Batteriser Bunch fired off the first salvo there when they called Dave's qualifications and experience into question. I suggest you take some time to read few some of the earlier posts. Everything that can be said about this subject has been said.

Like all good scams, there is a grain of truth in there. Batteroos problem, is that it they're still trying to defend their provenly bullshit claims.  ::)

Seriously, take some time to read some of the earlier posts, the ones before it all descended into farce  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 03, 2015, 05:45:46 pm

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on December 03, 2015, 05:06:17 pm

No one on this forum (as far as I can recall) has ever disputed the underlying physical principles behind the Batteriser device

Why would we dispute the existence of something we all use on a daily basis?

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on December 03, 2015, 05:06:17 pm

(buck converter).

Boost, I think you'll find...   :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 03, 2015, 06:16:09 pm

Only way Batterpoo can get 800% more energy out of a pretty much flat battery is if they have invented a working Mr Fusion  as seen in BTTF.  If that, and at the price point they intend to sell at, then the energy worries of the planet are solved for pretty much until the sun finally senesces and turns into a red dwarf. If that then I want to be Lister....... Or even Holly. Just not Rimmer. Might take the Kryten position, if i can be one of the spare heads.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 04, 2015, 01:26:56 am

Quote from: GNU_Ninja on December 03, 2015, 05:06:17 pm

Like all good scams, there is a grain of truth in there.

Indeed.

Quote

Seriously, take some time to read some of the earlier posts, the ones before it all descended into farce  :)

Something I really should have done.  I do apologise.

I need to make some time for that exercise.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 04, 2015, 07:27:39 am

The number of backers has decreased again, and now there's people on the Indiegogo page asking where their batterisers are...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on December 04, 2015, 08:13:49 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 03, 2015, 05:45:46 pm

Boost, I think you'll find...   :D

Oops  :palm:   :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 04, 2015, 08:49:54 am

Generally, we agree the. Batteriser is 'bucked' in any case!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on December 04, 2015, 09:56:01 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 04, 2015, 07:27:39 am

The number of backers has decreased again, and now there's people on the Indiegogo page asking where their batterisers are...

Soon it will be time to grab some popcorn, sit back and watch the show


The limitations of their initial pre-production product should have been made very clear to everyone form the beginning.  Instead of focusing on hype and pipe-dreams they should have just been honest.  Then their product would not have been dragged through the mud as it has been.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 04, 2015, 10:09:25 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 04, 2015, 07:27:39 am

The number of backers has decreased again, and now there's people on the Indiegogo page asking where their batterisers are...

How do backer numbers descrease? Are they giving refunds?

I'm quite surprised at the lack of comments on this campaign, especially given the large number of backers. usually people start to go feral when the project is overdue, and the BS excuses start coming in as we have started to see.
Is it the low price where people simply don't care enough to follow and comment?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 04, 2015, 10:19:47 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 04, 2015, 10:09:25 am

I'm quite surprised at the lack of comments on this campaign, especially given the large number of backers.

I wonder how many of the "backers" are shills?

eg. I'm pretty sure "DaisyDates" isn't a real backer, and neither is "DaveyJonez".

Could they have paid a bunch of Vietnamese campaign backers to boost up the campaign as part of their bigger scam?

They had the capital to do it and they'll get a decent chunk of the money back from IndieGoGo (add in the real money from the people who thought it was a genuine product and they might even turn a profit).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 04, 2015, 10:21:58 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 04, 2015, 10:09:25 am

How do backer numbers descrease? Are they giving refunds?


Is it the low price where people simply don't care enough to follow and comment?

I don't know, all I know is that it was 7400 a few days ago, so its only decreased by 3, but if people are realising what's going on, more and more people are going to ask for a refund.

People probably haven't queried it yet, because we're only 4 days into December; 4 days past the claimed delivery date...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 04, 2015, 01:02:04 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on December 04, 2015, 09:56:01 am

Soon it will be time to grab some popcorn, sit back and watch the show

I'm ready....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v702/brumbymg/AAA/Popcorn-3D.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/brumbymg/media/AAA/Popcorn-3D.jpg.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on December 04, 2015, 01:07:43 pm

I can't wait to hear Batteroo's next reason for delaying shipment.

"The monkey ate the plans."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on December 04, 2015, 01:23:53 pm

Quote from: WN1X on December 04, 2015, 01:07:43 pm

I can't wait to hear Batteroo's next reason for delaying shipment.

"The monkey ate the plans."

Nah.  However, I will bet 1000 Quatloos that the next update contains the following phrases

"Big Battery"  "Youtubers"  and  some form of "Conspiracy" statement

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 04, 2015, 09:57:21 pm

Delay in shipment? That implies they have something to ship....

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=185507;image)

Based in their timeline, the delay actually dates back to 2010, when they started on the design and applied for a patent  :-DD

So if they're now 5 years delayed, should we expect shipment in 2020?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on December 04, 2015, 10:29:02 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 04, 2015, 10:09:25 am

(...)
Is it the low price where people simply don't care enough to follow and comment?

I think that's exactly the case.
That other rude dude who made that stupid "I am Dave the engineer" video said, he is not that bothered if he got scammed and loses his 10 bucks.
Seems to be a common attitude around those backers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 05, 2015, 03:13:23 am

On the presumption that they do actually bring a product to market, one thing I will be waiting for is the list of excuses given for why the product didn't live up to the hype.

I wonder if the delay might be because they are (still?) looking for a spin doctor who will take on the challenge?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: l0rd_hex on December 05, 2015, 06:15:02 am

I came across this randomly today when I was checking out one of Dave's blabs -- couldn't help but chuckle. Maybe these Batteroo'tards think it's not December in Australia yet  ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on December 05, 2015, 06:23:39 am

Quote from: l0rd_hex on December 05, 2015, 06:15:02 am

I came across this randomly today when I was checking out one of Dave's blabs -- couldn't help but chuckle. Maybe these Batteroo'tards think it's not December in Australia yet  ::)

Just a young man with no cause.

How did they let him be a somewhat spokesman goes beyond me, as I recall he is related to the company or a friend of one of the kids from a founder of the company, using fiverr to get promotional videos and to down vote Dave's videos.

I think those young men did more harm to the company than the claims by the company... well maybe not because the claims are pretty bad.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on December 05, 2015, 01:00:03 pm

Quote from: l0rd_hex on December 05, 2015, 06:15:02 am

I came across this randomly today when I was checking out one of Dave's blabs -- couldn't help but chuckle. Maybe these Batteroo'tards think it's not December in Australia yet  ::)

Even if we say that Dave's YT channel is a fraud, all his views are paid for in order to make money, blah, blah, blah, why on earth would he stand to lose out if Buttplugeriser really did what it claims to do?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on December 05, 2015, 03:44:36 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on December 04, 2015, 09:56:01 am

Soon it will be time to grab some popcorn, sit back and watch the show

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-RtHM20EsSfs/Ur6iaa656II/AAAAAAAAzN8/d7yCaDwC3hg/w530-h716-p/13%2B-%2B1)

Quote from: g.lewarne on December 04, 2015, 09:56:01 am

The limitations of their initial pre-production product should have been made very clear to everyone form the beginning.

In this case, it's more a case of the limits imposed by physical laws. You can't draw more than 0,5W from a quite depleted AA cell.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: l0rd_hex on December 05, 2015, 05:54:28 pm

Quote from: miguelvp on December 05, 2015, 06:23:39 am

How did they let him be a somewhat spokesman goes beyond me, as I recall he is related to the company or a friend of one of the kids from a founder of the company, using fiverr to get promotional videos and to down vote Dave's videos.

I think those young men did more harm to the company than the claims by the company... well maybe not because the claims are pretty bad.

I wonder if it was the old "my nephew is always on Facebook, he must have great social medias!" combined with the fact the nephew sounds like a prototypical business school meatball who thinks he can't do wrong.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cyberdragon on December 06, 2015, 06:54:44 am

There is only one fate for a waste of shitty chinese electronics. (Even they don't deserve to be assembled in such a manner as this horrible device, at least that disgusting tablet thing worked, but this thing is pointless)
They should be forced to cancel all orders...but then we'ed have no fun...😈

Youtubers...after debunking the batteriser, please bust your device further by:

Inserting a lithium AA and shorting it (8A surge current)
Connecting to MOT
Connecting to flyback
Shooting it
Stomping it
Will it Blend?
Dropping it in molten lead
Connecting to Car battery
Is it a Good Idea to Microwave This?
throwing it out a window (with battery)
Sucking up with carpet vacuum
PHOTONICINDUCTION
Acid
Laser
Granade
Oven
Toaster
Blowtorch
Seawater
Launching it from toy rocket

And so on...
They are abominations that should not be allowed to exist, the only thing they are good for is destroying them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 06, 2015, 08:05:08 am

I hope you feel better getting that off your mind!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 06, 2015, 08:07:20 am

Quote from: SL4P on December 06, 2015, 08:05:08 am

I hope you feel better getting that off your mind!

+1

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 06, 2015, 08:08:13 am

Quote from: Cyberdragon on December 06, 2015, 06:54:44 am

They are abominations that should not be allowed to exist, the only thing they are good for is destroying them.

Don't hold back, tell us what you really think!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 06, 2015, 02:55:43 pm

The grenade alternative has definite appeal, but last time I checked, detonating military ordnance in a residential area - or even an industrial estate - was rather frowned upon in Sydney.  Besides, I'm sure they aren't worth the price of a grenade.


This option, however, got my immediate approval....

Quote from: Cyberdragon on December 06, 2015, 06:54:44 am

Will it Blend?

Trouble is, being such a small product, just one blitz and it would be all over.  Maybe better if we do 50 at a time - and repeat the experiment to ensure statistically reliable results.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on December 06, 2015, 04:33:04 pm

I literally had a nightmare dream last night.  I was drowning in batteriser sleeves!  they were all really flimsy, sharp and kept cutting me.

I felt 80% better when I work up and realised it wasn't real.

(and no, I'm not joking, I really did have a dream about batterisers)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on December 06, 2015, 04:53:23 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on December 06, 2015, 04:33:04 pm

I literally had a nightmare dream last night.  I was drowning in batteriser sleeves!  they were all really flimsy, sharp and kept cutting me.

I felt 800% better when I work up and realised it wasn't real.

You need to quietly revise your improvement down to 80% :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: l0rd_hex on December 06, 2015, 07:03:07 pm

Quote from: Cyberdragon on December 06, 2015, 06:54:44 am

Granade

I'd love to but Granola based weapons are banned in Canada.  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 06, 2015, 07:34:07 pm

Aussie50 needs one to put through his shredder. Nice and slow, and will be recorded in high def.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 06, 2015, 07:46:18 pm

Thin, sharp-edged stainless steel... heck, when Batteriser folds - they could be repurposed as blender blades (or military shrapnel!)....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ian.M on December 06, 2015, 07:53:59 pm

If you put a 3.6V Lithium AA sized battery in, does it become a miniature IED, and is it directional? 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cyberdragon on December 07, 2015, 04:37:36 am

Quote from: Ian.M on December 06, 2015, 07:53:59 pm

If you put a 3.6V Lithium AA sized battery in, does it become a miniature IED, and is it directional?

It might just blow instantly all over your hand. But thats another design failure, because I'm pretty sure theres no voltage protection. (We might revise this to a feature since it has none.)

Once I get some new capacitors for my 600v vacuum tube PSU, these little metal holders might be goods mounts for pencil leads to make an arc lamp. Once of course I've used the PSU to burn away all of the grainy bits in the sleeve.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on December 07, 2015, 06:37:35 am

Their IC should have an overvoltage protection like the similar LT3526, but we shall see. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cyberdragon on December 07, 2015, 07:15:12 am

Will it protect it against a tesla coil though? :p

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 07, 2015, 07:35:30 am

Quote from: Cyberdragon on December 07, 2015, 07:15:12 am

Will it protect it against a tesla coil though? :p

Cue the Mythbusters.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 07, 2015, 10:02:05 am

I don't understand why bob keeps referring to it as a shipping delay...

A delay in shipping implies that there's something to ship, and they're trying to sort out the logistics of sending to however many countries it is, some which would be large quantities using drop shipping, some that I imagine would have to be single packages sent to a country...

Quote

However, there is no doubt in my mind that all of our backers will be getting the batterisers they ordered!

 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 07, 2015, 10:13:05 am

Everyone relax, it's a typo.
I think they meant 'a chipping  delay'....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 07, 2015, 11:49:44 am

From Indiegogo just now...

Quote

12 days ago

Dear Indiegogo Supporters,

Our team has been hard at work completing final development of Batteriser and moving into initial production. At this time, we have encountered a slight delay relating to the manufacturing of the Batteriser's integrated circuit (IC).

Our earlier proof of concept prototype IC could efficiently deliver 500 milliamps of steady state current. However, as many applications need higher current driving capabilities, we modified our Integrated Circuit (IC) design to make it capable of the higher level of current driving capability. We expected our final IC to be ready and out of the fabrication facility (FAB) over a month ago. However, due to a drift in process parameters, the IC is still being worked on by our engineering team, in order to be ready for mass production. Fortunately, we have been working diligently with the FAB to address and fix the issues responsible for this delay, and we are anxiously waiting to receive our final IC in the coming weeks. We are committed to producing your Batterisers with the highest quality standards.

As you might recall, this is the last component necessary to start assembling and shipping Batterisers. At this time, we will need to delay our estimated ship date, but we are doing everything possible to ship Batterisers to you and your family as soon as possible, and hopefully before Christmas.

"we are anxiously waiting to receive our final IC in the coming weeks".

I wouldn't be holding my breath for Christmas.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cyberdragon on December 07, 2015, 08:58:27 pm

This has probably already been covered somewhere in these 200+ pages but...take a look at this

(this is their FCC testing)

http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_Report_FCC.pdf (http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_Report_FCC.pdf)

almost ONE GIGAHERTZ?! From a boost converter?! :wtf:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on December 07, 2015, 09:10:03 pm

Quote from: Cyberdragon on December 07, 2015, 08:58:27 pm

almost ONE GIGAHERTZ?! From a boost converter?! :wtf:

800% more Hz...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 08, 2015, 05:13:10 am

My first guess was harmonics. But I think that's not possible, because there is nothing from 30 MHz to 500 MHz. And can't be the switching frequency, because the report says "highest intentionally generated frequency is 1.5 MHz", so 1.5 MHz might be the switching frequency of the voltage converter (and emitted radiation for this frequency would be very low with the 1k test resistor). Maybe some other HF voodoo I don't know or understand?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 08, 2015, 05:24:41 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 08, 2015, 05:13:10 am

::: Maybe some other HF voodoo I don't know or understand?

That would fit Batteroo's marketing model  :box:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on December 08, 2015, 05:59:50 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 08, 2015, 05:13:10 am

My first guess was harmonics. But I think that's not possible, because there is nothing from 30 MHz to 500 MHz. And can't be the switching frequency, because the report says "highest intentionally generated frequency is 1.5 MHz", so 1.5 MHz might be the switching frequency of the voltage converter (and emitted radiation for this frequency would be very low with the 1k test resistor). Maybe some other HF voodoo I don't know or understand?

Anti-Ringing Control:
The anti-ring circuit connects a resistor across the inductor
to prevent high frequency ringing on the SW pin
during discontinuous current mode operation. Although
the ringing of the resonant circuit formed by L and CSW
(capacitance on SW pin) is low energy, it can cause EMI
radiation.(LT3526 datasheet)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on December 08, 2015, 09:11:47 am

Wait... this Batteriser thing is still going? I mean no one's seen a product yet but the Batteroo jokers still claim it's going to happen?  :palm:

I bet there are a lot of pissed off "investors" by this stage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 08, 2015, 09:46:08 am

And don't forget that there are probably more people waiting for it to debunk than there are legitimate backers.

I have no doubt that the device will be suitable in particular applications, for instance if you added a treble hook you could probably catch a fish.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 08, 2015, 09:53:24 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 07, 2015, 10:02:05 am

I don't understand why bob keeps referring to it as a shipping delay...
A delay in shipping implies that there's something to ship

Yes, clearly playing with words again.
You can't have admittedly pre-production silicon prototype issues requiring new silicon and call it shipping problem. It's impossible.
They have design problems after their shipping date, and way after they claimed to be ready for production.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on December 08, 2015, 03:13:18 pm

I still dont understand how a product advertised to deliver 2A initially? then lowered to 500mA, can pass FCC testing at 1.5mA and be legit???

its like testing idling plane engine for fuel consumption
edit: bad analogy, its like testing idling plane engine for effective perceived noise level (EPNL)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 08, 2015, 07:35:45 pm

Quote from: Rasz on December 08, 2015, 03:13:18 pm

I still dont understand how a product advertised to deliver 2A initially? then lowered to 500mA, can pass FCC testing at 1.5mA and be legit???

its like testing idling plane engine for fuel consumption
edit: bad analogy, its like testing idling plane engine for effective perceived noise level (EPNL)

News from Batterpoo:

" We hired some new engineering staff, ex Volkswagen, who have come up with some proven ways to increase design efficiency under the standardised test conditions"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on December 08, 2015, 08:22:43 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 08, 2015, 09:53:24 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 07, 2015, 10:02:05 am

I don't understand why bob keeps referring to it as a shipping delay...
A delay in shipping implies that there's something to ship

Yes, clearly playing with words again.
You can't have admittedly pre-production silicon prototype issues requiring new silicon and call it shipping problem. It's impossible.
They have design problems after their shipping date, and way after they claimed to be ready for production.

Or testing a aircraft engine before the crankcase makes it out of the CAD station.  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 08, 2015, 08:36:32 pm

more and more people asking where their batteriesers are...

approximate dates for shipping? we'll let you know next week!  :-DD

that would suggest that they have no idea... if their magical ICs were done, they'd have some idea of production time... those damn s(c)hipping delays!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on December 08, 2015, 08:52:31 pm

Quote from: SeanB on December 08, 2015, 07:35:45 pm

Quote from: Rasz on December 08, 2015, 03:13:18 pm

I still dont understand how a product advertised to deliver 2A initially? then lowered to 500mA, can pass FCC testing at 1.5mA and be legit???

its like testing idling plane engine for fuel consumption
edit: bad analogy, its like testing idling plane engine for effective perceived noise level (EPNL)

News from Batterpoo:

" We hired some new engineering staff, ex Volkswagen, who have come up with some proven ways to increase design efficiency under the standardised test conditions"

VW Engineers? So it will output 2Amps on a test fixture, but only 200mA when used in an everyday situation? :D

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 08, 2015, 11:15:37 pm

Bob is still claiming a x6 increase in battery life on the golf GPS.
He's going to be very embarrassed when people get the Batteriser and actually test it with the exact same GPS

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186228;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 08, 2015, 11:20:24 pm

Latest update today:

Quote

We'll have a clearer sense of the exact timeline by next week, so we plan on sending another update regarding shipping at that time.

So by say the end of next week (18th worst case) they have a "clearer sense" of the "exact timeline".
So he's not talking about shipping, he's talking about knowing the timeline.
That means absolutely no delivery in December, no doubt about it. Because you don't announce a "timeline" and then ship the same week.
No surprises of course, we all knew this, because they have to get and test the new silicon. They don't even have the new silicon yet, otherwise they'd be crowing about it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 08, 2015, 11:27:15 pm

Quote from: Rasz on December 08, 2015, 03:13:18 pm

I still dont understand how a product advertised to deliver 2A initially? then lowered to 500mA, can pass FCC testing at 1.5mA and be legit???

That brings up the point about the current.
Bob is now saying it was only designed for 500mA max current, as if they just realised this now and it's shock. But I'm pretty darn sure that somewhere in these countless pages there is evidence of him saying publicly that it had 1.5A max current output?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cyberdragon on December 09, 2015, 02:57:46 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 08, 2015, 11:15:37 pm

Bob is still claiming a x6 increase in battery life on the golf GPS.
He's going to be very embarrassed when people get the Batteriser and actually test it with the exact same GPS

No...he won't. These jerks have no shame.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 09, 2015, 05:16:47 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 08, 2015, 11:27:15 pm

Quote from: Rasz on December 08, 2015, 03:13:18 pm

I still dont understand how a product advertised to deliver 2A initially? then lowered to 500mA, can pass FCC testing at 1.5mA and be legit???

That brings up the point about the current.
Bob is now saying it was only designed for 500mA max current, as if they just realised this now and it's shock. But I'm pretty darn sure that somewhere in these countless pages there is evidence of him saying publicly that it had 1.5A max current output?

It was so long ago now I've forgotten, but weren't both, or at least one of those Rupedupepoofarharvar brothers PHD's in EE? Or something?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 09, 2015, 07:18:43 am

From the Batteriser site:

Dr. Bob Roohparvar
CEO
30+ years experience in disrupting power management industry at Flextronics, Flexpower, and Broadcom. Redesigned the original iPhone charger, reducing size by over 50%. Holds a Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering from Iowa State University.

Frankie Roohparvar
Chairman & Inventor
Holds over 500 US patents in complex electrical systems, and is currently CEO of Skyera. Holds an M.S. in Electrical Engineeering from Santa Clara University, and M.B.A.s from Columbia Business School as well as Haas School of Business, University of California Berkeley.

Peter Pietrangelo
VP of Product Development
25+ years experience in product packaging design for high volume manufacturing of HDDs and camera modules. Served as Sr. Director positions at DOC and GLO-USA as well as Global Design Manager at VPT/Flextronics taking charge of camera module packaging for over 1,000 camera designs including the iPhone4 and Microsoft Kinect cameras.

Plus
Mitchell Nishi (VP Finance) and Sammy Saloum (Advisory Board - Strategy & Business Development)


No mention if anyone has any High School chemistry knowledge.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 09, 2015, 07:51:07 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 08, 2015, 11:27:15 pm

That brings up the point about the current.
Bob is now saying it was only designed for 500mA max current, as if they just realised this now and it's shock. But I'm pretty darn sure that somewhere in these countless pages there is evidence of him saying publicly that it had 1.5A max current output?

Their own FAQ has always said there's no limit:

http://batteriser.com/faq/ (http://batteriser.com/faq/)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186283;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 09, 2015, 08:12:53 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 09, 2015, 07:51:07 am

Their own FAQ has always said there's no limit:
http://batteriser.com/faq/ (http://batteriser.com/faq/)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186283;image)

 :-DD
There own FAQ is wrong, andnot accidently wrong, but deliberately wrong and deceiving on the primary parameter required of a product like the Batteriser.
And this is from guys of the supposed technical caliber listed in the post above.
I still gobsmacked at why they would ruin their careers and reputation on this blatant technical rubbish?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on December 09, 2015, 08:25:58 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 08, 2015, 09:53:24 am

...You can't have admittedly pre-production silicon prototype issues requiring new silicon and call it shipping problem. It's impossible.
They have design problems after their shipping date, and way after they claimed to be ready for production.

This perfectly lines up with companies that start engineering a product after they claim to have the product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 09, 2015, 09:49:33 am

Even if it can supply 1.5 amps for the AA version, the D sized version would need to supply around 4 times this to make it suitable for most devices that use D cells...

So even once they've developed the IC for the AA version, they'll have to go through it all again for the C and D sizes!  :-//

Then they'll need prototypes for them all, and FCC/UL testing for each version.

If they aren't shipping what they already have, which is a device that won't do as claimed, I don't think they're going to ship anything, because whats the point in developing another IC, for a device that still won't do as claimed?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on December 09, 2015, 11:39:20 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 09, 2015, 07:18:43 am

From the Batteriser site:

Frankie Roohparvar
Chairman & Inventor
Holds over 500 US patents in complex electrical systems, and is currently CEO of Skyera. Holds an M.S. in Electrical Engineeering from Santa Clara University, and M.B.A.s from Columbia Business School as well as Haas School of Business, University of California Berkeley.

Frankie's got a lot of 'e's in his title M.S. in Electrical Engineeeeeeeering. I wonder.... |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on December 09, 2015, 12:13:26 pm

The comments on their indegogo are heating up my popcorn......shows a'comin!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on December 09, 2015, 12:46:10 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 09, 2015, 09:49:33 am

Even if it can supply 1.5 amps for the AA version, the D sized version would need to supply around 4 times this to make it suitable for most devices that use D cells...

So even once they've developed the IC for the AA version, they'll have to go through it all again for the C and D sizes!  :-//

Hi,

I thought that the C & D cells would be able to do higher current, but when I checked the datasheets:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186289;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186291;image)

I found that the internal resistance of the C & D cells is more less the same as the AA cell.  I thought about this, then I realised it is a resistors in series and parallel kind of thing. As you scale the physical dimensions there is a larger parallel path and longer series path.

So the larger cells don't really help with maximum current, they do have increased capacity.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 09, 2015, 12:48:43 pm

Looks like they are deleting comments on Indiegogo. I posted this 19 days ago in this thread:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=183128;image)

Now it's gone:
(http://i.imgur.com/H6TD1Ry.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on December 09, 2015, 12:52:46 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 08, 2015, 11:20:24 pm

Latest update today:

Quote

We'll have a clearer sense of the exact timeline by next week, so we plan on sending another update regarding shipping at that time.

So by say the end of next week (18th worst case) they have a "clearer sense" of the "exact timeline".
So he's not talking about shipping, he's talking about knowing the timeline.
...

I know you know this, but he's not talking about "knowing" the timeline.  He said he will have a "clearer" sense.  Same old language to give them plenty of wiggle room by next week when the timeline will be "clearer" (maybe they will be able to tell whether it's 2016, 2017 or 2018 they are talking about).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on December 09, 2015, 01:03:33 pm

Hi,

Here is a capture of the comments:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186293;image)

Let us see if they get deleted when they wake up in the West coast.

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 09, 2015, 01:08:45 pm

Censorship is the first sign of someone running scared.

Genuine people address such pressure with acknowledgement and a professional response.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 09, 2015, 03:08:20 pm

Letting them down slowly...?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186301;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GNU_Ninja on December 09, 2015, 03:12:50 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 09, 2015, 03:08:20 pm

Letting them down slowly...?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186301;image)

And we all know Batteroos 'test' on the Garmin GPS was comprehensively debunked earlier in this thread by forum member 5ky.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on December 09, 2015, 03:15:42 pm

"have a clearer sense of the exact timeline..." could just mean they will know they have to have more unknown delays.

"We are still committed to ..." is not very reassuring. The use of the word "still" sounds like they are going to drop the commitment at any moment, and, then, take a different path, such as refund all backers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CrashO on December 09, 2015, 03:18:32 pm

Reading the comments on indiegogo  :popcorn:  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on December 09, 2015, 03:20:15 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 09, 2015, 03:08:20 pm

Letting them down slowly...?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186301;image)

I like how he phrases that such that it appears that 2X is the MINIMUM amount of improvement you'd see.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SpidersWeb on December 09, 2015, 07:20:13 pm

I'm waiting for the complaints from people who discover a shorter battery life. I'm looking forward to the shipping date.

If they did a CR2032 holder with a diode and boosted the output to 3.6 that would've been neat (for me anyway) or a a clip on step-up so people could easily run Arduino or similar projects off a single AA with minimal fuss. But attempting to extend the life of junk batteries which are probably going to leak soon anyway - meh.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 09, 2015, 08:00:08 pm

From their facebook page...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186368;image)

"for the new year" doesn't that imply this year? It does to me anyway...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 09, 2015, 09:14:27 pm

Notwithstanding the fact the product is based on false assumptions, Batteroo looks like the perfect example of graduate, boardroom 'engineers' that have never actually done any practical work, hence no experience in testing and engineering for production.  A lot of talk, but no delivery.

I doubt their initial intent was to defraud, but they simply had very little idea what they were talking about from day one.

About now, they should setup a roadside lemonade stand that offers to swap out the batteries in children's' toys!  ...but health certification for the 'Kool Aid' substitute may be difficult with the track record of Batteriser...  at least 'staying on the shelf' due to delayed shipping, it will last much longer than real 'Kool Aid' !

Perhaps one of the backers could ask which 'products' were tested at 2, 4, 6 times extended operation, and the testing methodology.

Of course, these tests are irrelevant with new chip design/silicon coming 'soon'...
Sigh.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on December 10, 2015, 12:20:21 am

Ali is getting frustrated...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 12:27:39 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 09, 2015, 08:00:08 pm

From their facebook page...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186368;image)

How can they go from "We'll have a clearer timeline by end of next week" to now making out it's all hunky-dory and a good chance of shipping before new years?
Crazy.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 12:34:09 am

Hilarious stuff!
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186433;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 12:38:26 am

Wow, did Ali Roohparvar just dox one of their contributors?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186435;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on December 10, 2015, 12:44:15 am

Ali is really getting upset now...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 12:45:05 am

I can't believe Bob is letting Ali comment on like this
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186441;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 12:47:46 am

More technical details.
Given that they designed this new higher current IC back in July, that was before/during the IGG campaign, yet they didn't bother to inform that backers that:
a) They were using a now admittedly pre-production prototype
and
b) A new IC was in the works, and therefore that is a potentially big and substantial risk to the project timeline, they did not inform backers about. They in fact lied on their project timeline diagram as has been posted here and is still currently displayed on their campaign page.

And also, why did they bother FCC and UL testing the pre-production prototype chip?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186444;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on December 10, 2015, 01:04:26 am

Strange twist from Ali's talk: what threats was he talking about?  Is  his talking "I will find out... where they live.." itself a threat to those who have negative opinions about their products?   

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 10, 2015, 01:12:11 am

Quote from: onlooker on December 10, 2015, 01:04:26 am

Strange twist from Ali's talk: what threats was he talking about?  Is  his talking "I will find out... where they live.." itself a threat to those who have negative opinions about their products?   

I guess for him it is a threat if you criticize the product, and some people react with violence if they run out of arguments.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SpidersWeb on December 10, 2015, 01:36:20 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 09, 2015, 08:00:08 pm

From their facebook page...

I read that post this morning, but went back just now and it's been removed?!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 10, 2015, 02:04:21 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 09, 2015, 01:08:45 pm

Genuine people address such pressure with acknowledgement and a professional response.

... like that is happening.

Seems we have well and truly entered the "Managing Expectations" zone - and there are not a lot of positives that can be said about how that is being managed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SpidersWeb on December 10, 2015, 02:17:06 am

lol @  "Don’t be fooled by thirsty journalists and full time bloggers."
Those pesky kids with their maths and their science.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 02:51:40 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 10, 2015, 01:12:11 am

Quote from: onlooker on December 10, 2015, 01:04:26 am

Strange twist from Ali's talk: what threats was he talking about?  Is  his talking "I will find out... where they live.." itself a threat to those who have negative opinions about their products?   

I guess for him it is a threat if you criticize the product, and some people react with violence if they run out of arguments.

It's this.
No one is threatening Batteriser in any way. Technical people are just criticising the product and their extraordinary claims.
Ali is doing great harm to the company image the way he is handling this.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 10, 2015, 02:53:29 am

Quote from: SpidersWeb on December 10, 2015, 02:17:06 am

lol @  "Don’t be fooled by thirsty journalists and full time bloggers."
Those pesky kids with their maths and their science.

SpidersWeb  -->  just curious - do you like spiders?  I do  :-+      I wonder if it is possible to change user name? 

There is a topic on glues that got onto spiders so I do not feel bad about asking this here  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 02:55:32 am

Quote from: SpidersWeb on December 10, 2015, 02:17:06 am

lol @  "Don’t be fooled by thirsty journalists and full time bloggers."
Those pesky kids with their maths and their science.

 ;D
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186465;image)

It's interesting to note that I don't think I've ever used the word scam. In fact I have been very generous and conceding toward Batteriser given the clearly demonstrable nature of their silly claims.
If I was a thirsty full time blogger just after views, I could go to town on Batteriser with half a dozen more videos that would get hundreds of thousands of views. But that's not why I do it, hence why I stopped making Batteriser videos, even though they are easy fodder for ridicule.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on December 10, 2015, 02:57:23 am

That's beautiful, how to destroy your public image in 1 lesson and less than 5 minutes...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 03:07:22 am

Quote from: Godzil on December 10, 2015, 02:57:23 am

That's beautiful, how to destroy your public image in 1 lesson and less than 5 minutes...

Their public image is already in ruins, almost all by their own hand and that of their agents like Ali and the Batteroo Youtube channel kid.
And as far as their reputation in the technical community goes, they are nothing short of the laughing stock of the industry.
Almost everyone I meet jokes about Batteriser, and even top companies involved in the battery business have expressed to me continual facepalms at the Batteriser claims and their videos.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 10, 2015, 04:19:55 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 09, 2015, 08:00:08 pm

"for the new year" doesn't that imply this year? It does to me anyway...

To me, that wording says "we'll ship in the new year" so I certainly wouldn't be expecting them until sometime into 2016.  That phrasing gives them all of 2016 to ship them before it becomes another lie.  They're very careful with their wording.  :popcorn:

Quote from: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 12:45:05 am

I can't believe Bob is letting Ali comment on like this

Yeah, his comment style sure has the same kind of immature tone as the YouTube Batteroo Fan Page kid.  Is this the same guy?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rx8pilot on December 10, 2015, 04:23:39 am

The response is similar to when the "Windows Service" scammer called me. I played with him for a bit and then called his scam. He immediately became angry and his response was similarly teenager in tone.

There is no company or product here so there is no way to damage the company. The scam is losing power before the launch sequence.

Ugly.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on December 10, 2015, 05:02:52 am

So far, there is no evidence that any IC is produced in-house by Batteroo.
Their claim that the original 1.5MHz IC could deliver 500mA efficiently at 1.5V, from within the restricted space available on top of a AA/AAA battery, already pushes the bounds of credulity, when it is compared to the best available DC to DC converters, especially designed for battery applications.
The recent announcement of an improved IC, producing an output of 1.3A, engineered and tested over a period of four months, borders on the ridiculous.  :bullshit:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 10, 2015, 05:14:34 am

I reckon Ali should run this conversation past his mum before making statements in public...  Bob or whomever should be worried about 'relationships' within the family?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186479;image)
:::
-- and of course, I can understand the 1.3A operating current rating (ha?), but I wonder what magic they pulled to draw 4 Amps when idle.  Perhaps switch the stainless sleeve across the battery to turn off the output (that'll work).
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186481;image)

-- and the 500mA units were ready over the summer... but they never made ANY promotional videos or demonstrations of it working?  sigh

They could dismiss it as one BIG typo - just like the whole campaign... (?!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on December 10, 2015, 05:28:44 am

New companies with a wonder product and family members in key positions don't inspire confidence. Ask the Madoff investors.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SpidersWeb on December 10, 2015, 05:47:33 am

Something else that's probably already been discussed, but I only noticed today - a lot of their marketing shots shows it being used in computer devices and showing 100% capacity - this could actually be VERY annoying for the end user, because it'll sit at 100% for a long time then suddenly drop making the gauge practically useless. It may even excite end users enough to post positive feedback, long before they've discovered minimal differences in longevity.

Quote from: ez24 on December 10, 2015, 02:53:29 am

SpidersWeb  -->  just curious - do you like spiders?  I do  :-+      I wonder if it is possible to change user name? 
There is a topic on glues that got onto spiders so I do not feel bad about asking this here  :-+

haha, I appreciate them but it's not a personally hobby. I started using it ~15 years ago, and I was doing a lot of work on the web, and it's just what I came up with at the time :P

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 10, 2015, 06:01:25 am

Quote from: SpidersWeb on December 10, 2015, 05:47:33 am

Something else that's probably already been discussed, but I only noticed today - a lot of their marketing shots shows it being used in computer devices and showing 100% capacity - this could actually be VERY annoying for the end user, because it'll sit at 100% for a long time then suddenly drop making the gauge practically useless. It may even excite end users enough to post positive feedback, long before they've discovered minimal differences in longevity.

Yes, this has been discussed many times.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 06:06:52 am

Quote from: SpidersWeb on December 10, 2015, 05:47:33 am

Something else that's probably already been discussed, but I only noticed today - a lot of their marketing shots shows it being used in computer devices and showing 100% capacity - this could actually be VERY annoying for the end user, because it'll sit at 100% for a long time then suddenly drop making the gauge practically useless. It may even excite end users enough to post positive feedback, long before they've discovered minimal differences in longevity.

Correct. It renders any product battery gauge useless.
It has been mentioned many times.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rx8pilot on December 10, 2015, 06:09:08 am

"Transient State"???

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 10, 2015, 06:11:54 am

Quote from: SpidersWeb on December 10, 2015, 01:36:20 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 09, 2015, 08:00:08 pm

From their facebook page...

I read that post this morning, but went back just now and it's been removed?!

Its back again... lmao  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Joule Thief on December 10, 2015, 06:18:40 am

Quote from: Joule Thief on December 01, 2015, 10:33:15 am

one day this is all going to end and I will have to find something else to read with my morning coffee  :popcorn:

it is a shame as I have learned a great deal from all the responses

maybe I was too quick to see an end to this.

standing by for more comedy gold  :-/O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 10, 2015, 06:26:24 am

They've got facebook?  :popcorn:

Oh, there's some good material there...

Batteriser will definitely ship by new year! (Chinese new year?)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186488;image)

Sales are on the increase in Denmark!
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186484;image)

The C-cell Batterisers are nearly ready!
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186486;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 10, 2015, 06:30:19 am

Quote from: Godzil on December 10, 2015, 02:57:23 am

That's beautiful, how to destroy your public image in 1 lesson and less than 5 minutes...

These sudden outbursts seem like a problem with drink/drugs to me.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 06:40:32 am

Interesting look at the C cell holder:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186490;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on December 10, 2015, 06:48:29 am

Batteriser comments on the Indiegogo campain:
"Relax old man. I'm half your age and twice your strength..." and
"I will check it (customers physical strength) out myself. I'm also willing to bet you probalby smell like the dumpsters in Milpitas...."

What the :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
Seriously ??
Really ?

No, no, no, noooo professional company would ever ever ever do this. Not even remotely. That is beyond insane  :palm:
If an employee of a decent run company would post such a comment online the next comment would be an apology and a comment like: "We apologize for the comments of our (former) colleague and are sad to hear that you think this way, however we are still going to reward your investment by shipping out the reward blah blah blah..."  :blah:

I have never ever seen this in my life.
That's a new quality of company insanity.

BTW: We need an emoticon "sheaking head in disbelief" like this one  :-//
Edit: Typos corrected

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 10, 2015, 06:59:23 am

Quote from: Chipguy on December 10, 2015, 06:48:29 am

Batteriser comments on the Indiegogo campain:
"Relax old man. I'm half your age and twice your strength..." and
"I will check it (customers physical strength) out myself. I'm also willing to bet you probalby smell like the dumpsters in Milpitas...."

What the :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
Seriously ??

I want to know how he knows what the dumpsters in Milpitas smell like.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 10, 2015, 06:59:59 am

Quote from: Chipguy on December 10, 2015, 06:48:29 am

no, noooo professional company would ever ever ever do this. Not even remotely. That is beyond insane  :palm:

Well, of course Batteriser could distance themselves by saying this 'Ali Rooparvar' character is a shill member of the detractor community - trying to cast Batteroo in a bad light - thus proving Bob's bleating that the world is against his and Franky's innovation and world-saving inventions...
And all you naysayers - Ali is an expert in marketing according to his LinkedIn profile...

If anyone can snatch the originating iP in some way - to link them later ?

Quote from: Fungus on December 10, 2015, 06:59:23 am

I want to know how he knows what the dumpsters in Milpitas smell like.

Aargh! - flashback to Ali's mum...  :-DD

Quote from: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 06:40:32 am

Interesting look at the C cell holder:

Strange mechanical construction ??
It looks like they routed the edge of the PCB laminate to accept the folded flanges of the sleeve ?!  Mechanical strength - not if it's done that way...
Maybe needed to reduce the overall height of the PCB + battery + sleeve ?
(... or it won't physically last long enough to test the 800% claim !)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 10, 2015, 07:50:06 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 10, 2015, 06:59:23 am

I want to know how he knows what the dumpsters in Milpitas smell like.

I googled it and all I could find was a reference to a dead girl being found in one (Milpitas dumpster).  :-//

Is there something we should know about Ali?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on December 10, 2015, 08:00:55 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 03:07:22 am

goes, they are nothing short of the laughing stock of the industry.
Almost everyone I meet jokes about Batteriser, and even top companies involved in the battery business have expressed to me continual facepalms at the Batteriser claims and their videos.

A-ha!  So you ARE involved with Big Battery after all!

Anyway, my sympathies are with poor Ali, he's going to be waking up with a stinking hangover and a stern bollocking from his faither and uncle...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 10, 2015, 08:10:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 06:40:32 am

Interesting look at the C cell holder:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186490;image)

They didn't get the text right? Both "E"s have missing bars. And why is it tilted relative to the battery? Looks like it doesn't really fit over the battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on December 10, 2015, 08:50:14 am

The PCB looks like it's made of corrigated cardboard too :)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 10, 2015, 08:54:44 am

Quote from: McBryce on December 10, 2015, 08:50:14 am

The PCB looks like it's made of corrigated cardboard too :)
McBryce.

Laminated phenolic - not fibreglass cheap old style, china low-cost.

Quote from: Fungus on December 10, 2015, 07:50:06 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 10, 2015, 06:59:23 am

I want to know how he knows what the dumpsters in Milpitas smell like.

I googled it and all I could find was a reference to a dead girl being found in one (Milpitas dumpster).  :-//

Dumpster Diving in California is more exciting than Castle Hill !

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 10, 2015, 09:55:50 am

edit, ahh, someone else got in first... Ignore this post  >:(

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on December 10, 2015, 10:53:21 am

Quote: 'Batteriser increases sales in Denmark region'

First, Denmark is a country, not a region.
Second, when you translate the Jylland-Posten article (by Danish freelance reporter based in San Francisco), you realize that sales aren't mentioned at all. It is just a rehash of Batteroo's press releases and the usual drivel:

"You increase the service life of between 15 and 800 per cent, depending on which device batteries used"said Bob Roohparvar.

Batterisers headquarters is located in an anonymous building in Sunnyvale south of San Francisco. It flows with batteries, wires, power meters and gadgets everywhere. A homemade Storm P-like mechanical arm presses automatically on the touch screen of a GPS-meter, while Xbox controllers buzz and Brio railways, toy robots and a mechanical monkey that can beat the pelvis, waiting to be awakened. This is where Bob Roohparvar and company test how Batteriser works in different devices.

To test whether Batteriser now also works, we put a nearly empty battery in a small Brio trains and lit it. The train crawled forward across the railway tracks. We measured the battery to still have 1 V back and sat as the small Batteriser jacket on. And immediately popped off the train energetic start browsing. "In general, we measured that we increase train speed by 60 per cent.," Said Bob Roohparvar.

Battery industry has no interest in increasing the battery life dramatically, as they will lose money on it," said Bob Roohparvar

Bob Roohparvar claims that bloggers often have been bought by battery companies. He points out that physics professors from San Jose State University have tested Batteriser and confirmed that the wrapper utilizes the power remaining in the battery, like the independent American testing laboratory UL has tested Batteriser on a Garmin GPS. With an ordinary battery GPS went out after an hour and 43 minutes while it with Batteriser in conjunction entire 10 hours and 12 minutes - exactly six times as long.

(http://cdn1.legacystation.com/media/catalog/category/33097md_1.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 10, 2015, 11:12:00 am

Quote

We measured the battery to still have 1 V

Quote

In general, we measured that we increase train speed by 60 per cent.

 :-//

So, the cells weren't depleted enough for the train to not operate, and the batteriser made it run faster.... not longer of course, as they're using the available energy quicker... just faster... for what, 5 seconds? 2 seconds?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 10, 2015, 11:18:23 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 10, 2015, 08:10:29 am

They didn't get the text right? Both "E"s have missing bars.

Each Batteriser prototype is cunningly fingerprinted.

If a prototype leaks out to the press they'll be able to trace the guilty party and take action.

(Remember: Ali has the strength of two men and you could end up in a dumpster in Milpitas)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 10, 2015, 11:20:14 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 10, 2015, 11:12:00 am

Quote

We measured the battery to still have 1 V

Quote

In general, we measured that we increase train speed by 60 per cent.

 :-//

So, the cells weren't depleted enough for the train to not operate, and the batteriser made it run faster.... not longer of course, as they're using the available energy quicker... just faster... for what, 5 seconds? 2 seconds?

1V open circuit, no doubt.

...and the speed increase doesn't matter if it only runs for 20 seconds.  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on December 10, 2015, 11:54:35 am

Batteriser video, explaining how to calculate the remaining energy in the battery:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w)

Scroll to timeline 8:20 and start watching.

At 8:57 - 9:03: "Oops, I just created energy from nothing."

The presenter missed one crucial point, which will break the batteriser's claims totally. He believes, that when using a boost-converter putting out 1.5 constant voltage and loaded with a 100mA constant current, the battery will still be able to sustain supplying energy equally long as the battery loaded with the 100mA constant current without the boost-converter. Major fail. They cannot create energy from nothing ie. when the battery is empty it is still empty even if you apply a boost-converter.

As Jay_Diddy_B has shown in his simulations, a device properly designed, will actually have less running time with the batteries that without batteriser. You may also read this statement as: using a batteriser will shorten the available running time of properly designed battery operated electrical appliance. However, in some badly designed battery-operated gadgets you may see some improvement.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on December 10, 2015, 12:07:29 pm

No what he say is correct, for a current point of view, which is, in reality false when you remember that to calculate the remaining in a battery if it's charge, not current, and even voltage is not even the correct unit.

That's why we now use Power (Wh/Watt) instead of current to tell the capacity of a battery.

P = U * I

If in his case I is a constant, U is the first thing he draw, so basically, P have the exact same shape as U, that's why we can use U to mesure the remaining capacity of a battery.

But this is true ONLY because we are running with a constant current. If we were in a constant power condition, the graph would be something else.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 10, 2015, 12:15:52 pm

In that video, with the digital camera, they measure it to have a 1.3amp current draw at one point.

The butteriser wouldn't even run this...

I found the same thing with my little boost converter, it could run the camera, but as soon as the flash capacitor tried to charge, the camera shut off...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 12:24:43 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on December 10, 2015, 11:54:35 am

At 8:57 - 9:03: "Oops, I just created energy from nothing."
The presenter missed one crucial point, which will break the batteriser's claims totally. He believes, that when using a boost-converter putting out 1.5 constant voltage and loaded with a 100mA constant current, the battery will still be able to sustain supplying energy equally long as the battery loaded with the 100mA constant current without the boost-converter. Major fail. They cannot create energy from nothing ie. when the battery is empty it is still empty even if you apply a boost-converter.

Correct.
His explanation is only valid when you have a constant current load on the battery. Only time matters in that case, which is what you see using my graph technique of remaining capacity, it's essentially linear and hence only becomes a function of time.
(http://www.eevblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/CoppertopAA-DischargeCapacityGraph-Line.png)

But he still doesn't understand (or if he does he doesn't explain it and is simplifying) that true battery capacity is measured in units of energy (Wh).
Hence why my graph is not completely linear.

But very few modern products are constant current load. And none are constant current when you introduce the Batteriser!
The Batteriser changes the discharge response curve for the product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 12:37:27 pm

Quote from: Delta on December 10, 2015, 08:00:55 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 03:07:22 am

goes, they are nothing short of the laughing stock of the industry.
Almost everyone I meet jokes about Batteriser, and even top companies involved in the battery business have expressed to me continual facepalms at the Batteriser claims and their videos.

A-ha!  So you ARE involved with Big Battery after all!

LOL, yeah, you got me, I'm paid by BIG BATTERY!  ::)
Seriously, some companies and well respected players in the industry (not battery manufactures) have contacted me to express their bewilderment at Batteriser and their claims, and to thank me for debunking it.
Some even considering debunking it themselves, but ultimately deemed it too stupid to waste their time on.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on December 10, 2015, 12:40:49 pm

Seems like their office is full of battery-powered gizmos, all primed for misleading demonstrations. These people are engineers, where are the datasheets, graphs and efficiency curves?  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 10, 2015, 12:41:56 pm

Quote from: Godzil on December 10, 2015, 12:07:29 pm

But this is true ONLY because we are running with a constant current.

Yep.

And the problem is that constant current devices get less efficient as you raise the input voltage.

Think: LM7805 voltage regulator - the higher the input voltage, the more heat it produces.

And ... what do Batterisers do?? They raise the input voltage above what a battery would normally supply. That's their only purpose :-+

This means a Batterised constant current device converts more of the battery power to heat so the battery will last less time.  :palm:

He conveniently forgets to mention this in the video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 10, 2015, 12:44:52 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 12:37:27 pm

Some even considering debunking it themselves, but ultimately deemed it too stupid to waste their time on.

And the conspiracy theorists will go mental if big battery publicly denounces it.

Better to keep quiet and let the thing implode all by itself.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 12:49:05 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on December 10, 2015, 12:40:49 pm

These people are engineers, where are the datasheets, graphs and efficiency curves?  :palm:

Those pesky thing get in the way of good marketing.
They have promised data and never delivered.
They have promised media test units and never delivered.
But they do deliver occasionally, kinda: They promised a be-all-end-all highly technical video for engineers, and gave us a snail story and incorrect explanation of battery capacity.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on December 10, 2015, 02:53:10 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on December 10, 2015, 10:53:21 am

Quote: 'Batteriser increases sales in Denmark region'

...independent American testing laboratory UL has tested Batteriser on a Garmin GPS. With an ordinary battery GPS went out after an hour and 43 minutes while it with Batteriser in conjunction entire 10 hours and 12 minutes - exactly six times as long.

not this shit again, how the F does UL stand idly by this? how the F did they do it in the first place?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: free_electron on December 10, 2015, 03:13:30 pm

Quote from: Chipguy on December 10, 2015, 06:48:29 am

Batteriser comments on the Indiegogo campain:
"Relax old man. I'm half your age and twice your strength..." and
"I will check it (customers physical strength) out myself. I'm also willing to bet you probalby smell like the dumpsters in Milpitas...."

What the :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
Seriously ??
Really ?

No, no, no, noooo professional company would ever ever ever do this. Not even remotely. That is beyond insane  :palm:
If an employee of a decent run company would post such a comment online the next comment would be an apology

followed by a swift kick in the buttocks of said employee so he flies through the front door and out.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on December 10, 2015, 04:26:33 pm

Hi,

Just to get back to the technical aspect of the Batteriser for a minute.

Here is the discharge curve of a Duracell AA battery:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=183773;image)

If you take the point at 30,000 seconds, the open circuit voltage is 1.23 Volts and the internal resistance is 0.3 Ohms:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186536;image)

The 30,000 second point was chosen. The cell is half full or half empty depending on your view  :D

So if you add a variable load resistor to the circuit:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186538;image)

And you monitor the terminal voltage, the cell current and the power dissipated in the load resistor you get this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186540;image)

It is simply to not possible to get more than 1.26W


Now if I introduce a Batteriser. I have been very generous and given the Batteriser a conversion efficiency of 95%. The output voltage is being held constant at 1.4V

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186542;image)

The results are:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186544;image)

The maximum load power is 1.17W. This is not a surprise since 95% of 1.26W is around 1.17W.


What is more interesting is that the circuit doesn't work at all on the low voltage side of the maximum power point.
This is because the boost converter tries to draw more current, the voltage goes down, it tries to draw even more current etc. until the terminal voltage of the cell is zero volts and there is no power in the load.

I submit that it is simply not possible to build a Batteriser that will allow more than about 800mA from a half depleted AA cell.

I am waiting to watch how this plays out.....

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: grumpydoc on December 10, 2015, 04:54:01 pm

Quote

What is more interesting is that the circuit doesn't work at all on the low voltage side of the maximum power point.
This is because the boost converter tries to draw more current, the voltage goes down, it tries to draw even more current etc. until the terminal voltage of the cell is zero volts and there is no power in the load.

I submit that it is simply not possible to build a Batteriser that will allow more than about 800mA from a half depleted AA cell.

I have a practical demonstration of this in my pocket

During the winter I carry an Olight S15 Batton - I quite like it as a torch but the important thing for this discussion is that it obviously has a boost** converter in it since it will run from either 1xAA or 2xAA batteries.

It has three light levels - full output (3A @ 2.85v into the LED) can only really be achieved with fairly fresh batteries.. Once they are part discharged it will only go to medium brightness (pulling maybe 500mA). You just can't pull the current required out of a part exhausted battery.

** Probably buck-boost in fact as it will take Lithium batteries as well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 10, 2015, 05:35:05 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on December 10, 2015, 04:26:33 pm

...

Now if I introduce a Batteriser. I have been very generous and given the Batteriser a conversion efficiency of 95%. The output voltage is being held constant at 1.4V

Batteriser does 1.5V, I think you'll find...

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on December 10, 2015, 04:26:33 pm

I submit that it is simply not possible to build a Batteriser that will allow more than about 800mA from a half depleted AA cell.

...which means that number has to be revised downwards...

...down towards the 500mA which they think is unacceptable and currently causing "shipping delays"?  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on December 10, 2015, 05:52:16 pm

Quote from: SL4P on December 10, 2015, 08:54:44 am

Quote from: McBryce on December 10, 2015, 08:50:14 am

The PCB looks like it's made of corrigated cardboard too :)
McBryce.

Laminated phenolic - not fibreglass cheap old style, china low-cost.
...

I worked with phenolic - it looks more like corrigated cardboard to me too, hand coloured green.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SpidersWeb on December 10, 2015, 06:48:21 pm

I'm not sure if people are getting bored of the Jerry Springer performance or not, but good lord, how old is Ali Roohparvar? Twelve?
I know he's being trolled, but he should recognize this and show some ounce of professionalism, it's ridiculous.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on December 10, 2015, 07:05:07 pm

Quote

I know he's being trolled, but he should recognize this and show some ounce of professionalism, it's ridiculous.

This anger may be a good indication as to how well their business is doing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 10, 2015, 07:21:17 pm

Quote from: jancumps on December 10, 2015, 05:52:16 pm

it looks more like corrigated cardboard to me too, hand coloured green.

Now I look more closely... you may be right. Cardboard with little holes cut in it for some components to poke through!   :-DD

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186490;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 10, 2015, 07:37:34 pm

Quote from: Chipguy on December 10, 2015, 06:48:29 am

"I will check it (customers physical strength) out myself. I'm also willing to bet you probalby smell like the dumpsters in Milpitas...."

Maybe this is a private joke that I do not get.  What caught my eye is there is an eBay seller from Milpitas that always has some beat up Power Designs Power Supplies for sale.  Do people in Milpitas throw electronics away in dumpsters?  I thought everyone recycled electronics stuff?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on December 10, 2015, 08:30:18 pm

Quote from: jancumps on December 10, 2015, 05:52:16 pm

Quote from: SL4P on December 10, 2015, 08:54:44 am

Quote from: McBryce on December 10, 2015, 08:50:14 am

The PCB looks like it's made of corrigated cardboard too :)
McBryce.

Laminated phenolic - not fibreglass cheap old style, china low-cost.
...

I worked with phenolic - it looks more like corrigated cardboard to me too, hand coloured green.

I've worked with phemolic too, which is why I said it looks like cardboard. Phenolic is perfectly flat, that looks uneven.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: gore on December 10, 2015, 08:41:10 pm

This whole campaign and all the silly claims they made was ridiculous from the get go. And the little fan page we've been dealing with. Considering the attitude of Ali Roohparvar on the Indiegogo website and his ignorant exchange tells me that it doesn't take an immature child to run a page like that. Ali could occupy that position himself.

Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in this company, does it. I am just hoping that some of you who ordered the product for the sake of testing its false claims will eventually get it. Some tests results would be nice to put it to bed once and for all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 10, 2015, 09:14:03 pm

Quote from: ez24 on December 10, 2015, 07:37:34 pm

Quote from: Ali_R

"you probalby smell like the dumpsters in Milpitas...."

Maybe this is a private joke that I do not get.

I have no idea what it means but it sure made me laugh.  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on December 10, 2015, 09:49:02 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 10, 2015, 09:14:03 pm

Quote from: ez24 on December 10, 2015, 07:37:34 pm

Quote from: Ali_R

"you probalby smell like the dumpsters in Milpitas...."

Maybe this is a private joke that I do not get.

I have no idea what it means but it sure made me laugh.  :-DD

Perhaps it's where he sourced that "PCB" on the D-Cell? :)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on December 10, 2015, 10:26:20 pm

Hi group,

It looks like that whole exchange of comments on the Batteriser Indieggo between Ali R is now gone. The number of comments has gone down to 534.

I wish the IGG site would show how many comments have been deleted.

The number of backers is slowly going down. There are 7394 backers now.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 10:32:56 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on December 10, 2015, 10:26:20 pm

It looks like that whole exchange of comments on the Batteriser Indieggo between Ali R is now gone.

Yep, they deleted everything, both Ali's comments and those of the backers.
This ability makes IGG a joke.
Also, they can't even date the updates and comments, that's just bullshit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 10:35:31 pm

Quote from: gore on December 10, 2015, 08:41:10 pm

Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in this company, does it. I am just hoping that some of you who ordered the product for the sake of testing its false claims will eventually get it. Some tests results would be nice to put it to bed once and for all.

No need to worry about that, it will be a mad scramble to publish full efficiency curves, real tests with dozens of products including the infamous Golf GPS.
The game will be completely up once they ship.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 10, 2015, 10:39:00 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 10:32:56 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on December 10, 2015, 10:26:20 pm

It looks like that whole exchange of comments on the Batteriser Indieggo between Ali R is now gone.

Yep, they deleted everything, both Ali's comments and those of the backers.
This ability makes IGG a joke.
Also, they can't even date the updates and comments, that's just bullshit.

I wouldn't be surprised if this whole Batteriser bungle didn't bring IGG to it's knees - or at the very least to stimulate legal requirements for CF campaigns.  It's in IGGs interest to call Batteroo to the table to discuss the effect on their (IGG) image as a legitimate CF player.

Added:  https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/updates (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/updates)

Quote

Our team has been hard at work completing final development of Batteriser and moving into initial production. At this time, we have encountered a slight delay relating to the manufacturing of the Batteriser's integrated circuit (IC).

Then you are certainly not moving into production ... yet.

Quote

Our earlier proof of concept prototype IC could efficiently deliver 500 milliamps of steady state current.

But we never presented it.

Quote

However, as many applications need higher current driving capabilities, we modified our Integrated Circuit (IC) design to make it capable of the higher level of current driving capability. We expected our final IC to be ready and out of the fabrication facility (FAB) over a month ago.

Project Management Score: 2/10

Quote

However, due to a drift in process parameters, the IC is still being worked on by our engineering team, in order to be ready for mass production.

A drift... to be ready...  We thought you were 'moving' into production...?

Quote

Fortunately, we have been working diligently with the FAB to address and fix the issues responsible for this delay, and we are anxiously waiting to receive our final IC in the coming weeks.

''working diligently''...  a spec change on your part - the fab does the rest (at great cost for a recast of the die), and we all move on...

Time is a constant.  Usually pretty easy to work with it - if you are experienced and communicate well.

Quote

We are committed to producing your Batterisers with the highest quality standards.

No-one doubts the Batteriser will be made to the 'highest standards' unless proven wrong, but there are concerns whether it will work.
The stainless sleeve looks nice.  The rest of the design strategy remains to be seen. At all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 10:46:46 pm

Quote from: SL4P on December 10, 2015, 10:39:00 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if this whole Batteriser bungle didn't bring IGG to it's knees - or at the very least to stimulate legal requirements for CF campaigns.  It's in IGGs interest to call Batteroo to the tabe to discuss the effect om their (IGG) image as a legitimate CF player.

Not going to happen.
Dodgy campaigns like Batteriser are literally a dime-a-dozen on IGG

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on December 10, 2015, 10:49:04 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 10:35:31 pm

No need to worry about that, it will be a mad scramble to publish full efficiency curves, real tests with dozens of products including the infamous Golf GPS.
The game will be completely up once they ship.

And let's not forget Probes the Monkey. Me thinks "Battery Bob" will be the one getting probed  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 10, 2015, 11:12:36 pm

Quote from: SL4P on December 10, 2015, 10:39:00 pm

The stainless sleeve looks nice.  The rest of the design strategy remains to be seen. At all.

It may look nice, but stainless steel is a poor conductor.

With the thickness they're using, and the design of the sleeve, the stainless steel itself will have a resistance similar to the esr of the battery anyway...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on December 11, 2015, 12:44:40 am

Give them a break, "the possibilities are endless"!  A CarBatteriser could be next!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on December 11, 2015, 01:19:32 am

Stainless isn't totally rubbish at conducting, I think roughly 15 milliohms for an 0.2mm thick AA batteriser sheet, but maybe, realising they need all the help they can, decided not to cut all the logo out of the C cell version  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 11, 2015, 01:21:04 am

Quote from: Delta on December 11, 2015, 12:44:40 am

Give them a break, "the possibilities are endless"!  A CarBatteriser could be next!

Nice troll that one!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 11, 2015, 01:30:39 am

Quote from: rich on December 11, 2015, 01:19:32 am

Stainless isn't totally rubbish at conducting, I think roughly 15 milliohms for an 0.2mm thick AA batteriser sheet, but maybe, realising they need all the help they can, decided not to cut all the logo out of the C cell version  :)

except they're talking about using 0.1mm from memory, and don't forget there's a ~3 or 4mm wide section on the AAA and AA versions of the butteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 11, 2015, 02:16:11 am

Quote

Give them a break, "the possibilities are endless"!  A CarBatteriser could be next!

Is this possible for $100 ?  I would pay $100 if I could get 5 secs one time from a dead car battery.  Right now I know my car will not start but would if I could get 5 secs.  I have a new battery in the trunk but I would rather have a CarBatteriser.  But I think tomorrow is the day I have to install the new battery (too far for an extension cord) because I do not have a CarBatteriser.

I cannot imagine the size of the components needed but if the size of a car battery and about $100 I would buy one.  My guess it is not possible.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 11, 2015, 03:37:12 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 11, 2015, 02:16:11 am

Quote

Give them a break, "the possibilities are endless"!  A CarBatteriser could be next!

Is this possible for $100 ?

No, it's not.
The main job of a car battery is to start your car. That requires hundreds of amps. If you battery can't deliver that, then no magic voodoo converter you add is going to help.
It would require another high current capable storage element, like another battery, or some form of super cap that you need to charge up.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on December 11, 2015, 03:45:39 am

Supercaps in series connected to the battery in parallel would work, however you have to load balance the charge.
I recall seeing some on e-bay, but modifying a car with external power or anything hooked at the electrical system is too risky for my blood.

I prefer my cars not on fire, not saying that device is dangerous but in my mind they are unproven.

Edit: Old listing but the balancer schematic picture is no longer available
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultracapacitor-Diesel-Engine-Battery-Starter-Booster-Car-Ultra-Super-Capacitor-/300900579759 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultracapacitor-Diesel-Engine-Battery-Starter-Booster-Car-Ultra-Super-Capacitor-/300900579759)

Get a better battery instead.

Edit: Also photoinduction tried this thing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_pzljtJapE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_pzljtJapE)

Available in the US as well but on a different name brand?
http://www.amazon.com/Current-13600mAh-Portable-Starter-Flashlight/dp/B00I02SVOC (http://www.amazon.com/Current-13600mAh-Portable-Starter-Flashlight/dp/B00I02SVOC)

Sorry for the derailment.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: l0rd_hex on December 11, 2015, 04:39:24 am

I believe replacing the water in your battery with holy water will forgive your battery's sins and may result in a "born again" battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 11, 2015, 06:44:33 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 11, 2015, 02:16:11 am

Quote

Give them a break, "the possibilities are endless"!  A CarBatteriser could be next!

Is this possible for $100 ?

It's not possible at any price. Cars need extra amps, not extra volts.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 11, 2015, 06:45:27 am

Quote from: SL4P on December 10, 2015, 10:39:00 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if this whole Batteriser bungle didn't bring IGG to it's knees - or at the very least to stimulate legal requirements for CF campaigns.

Have you browsed their campaigns...? Batteriser is nothing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on December 11, 2015, 07:10:12 am

Quote from: miguelvp on December 11, 2015, 03:45:39 am

Supercaps in series connected to the battery in parallel would work, however you have to load balance the charge.
I recall seeing some on e-bay, but modifying a car with external power or anything hooked at the electrical system is too risky for my blood.

I prefer my cars not on fire, not saying that device is dangerous but in my mind they are unproven.

Edit: Old listing but the balancer schematic picture is no longer available
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultracapacitor-Diesel-Engine-Battery-Starter-Booster-Car-Ultra-Super-Capacitor-/300900579759 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultracapacitor-Diesel-Engine-Battery-Starter-Booster-Car-Ultra-Super-Capacitor-/300900579759)

Get a better battery instead.

Edit: Also photoinduction tried this thing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_pzljtJapE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_pzljtJapE)

Available in the US as well but on a different name brand?
http://www.amazon.com/Current-13600mAh-Portable-Starter-Flashlight/dp/B00I02SVOC (http://www.amazon.com/Current-13600mAh-Portable-Starter-Flashlight/dp/B00I02SVOC)

Sorry for the derailment.

Let them start a diesel engine with that thing. I measured the current draw from the battery on my old mk2 Golf years ago. It drew 50 Amps to heat up the glowplugs for 5 to 10 seconds and then over 400A to crank the engine.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on December 11, 2015, 09:39:27 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 10, 2015, 12:37:27 pm

... some companies ....
Some even considering debunking it themselves, but ultimately deemed it too stupid to waste their time on.

The debunking part of it was easy, may of us could have done it, even very fast.

But you did it in an educational way, with a neutral dry scientific approach.
There was no real need for a debunk because most of us already knew, but you (and others) also delivered a lot of extra details and information.
I think it's only a little minority here that already knew ALL aspects.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on December 11, 2015, 09:48:12 am

Quote from: onlooker on December 10, 2015, 07:05:07 pm

Quote

I know he's being trolled, but he should recognize this and show some ounce of professionalism, it's ridiculous.

This anger may be a good indication as to how well their business is doing.

Isn't the Ali guy the same as the student guy that posted with different names on their Youtube channel?
It's nearly exam time for them, stress goes up.

The most dirty thing somebody could do at the moment is tell Daddy that Ali was on internet again instead of studying.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: senso on December 11, 2015, 10:27:30 am

Quote from: meeder on December 11, 2015, 07:10:12 am

Quote from: miguelvp on December 11, 2015, 03:45:39 am

Supercaps in series connected to the battery in parallel would work, however you have to load balance the charge.
I recall seeing some on e-bay, but modifying a car with external power or anything hooked at the electrical system is too risky for my blood.

I prefer my cars not on fire, not saying that device is dangerous but in my mind they are unproven.

Edit: Old listing but the balancer schematic picture is no longer available
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultracapacitor-Diesel-Engine-Battery-Starter-Booster-Car-Ultra-Super-Capacitor-/300900579759 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultracapacitor-Diesel-Engine-Battery-Starter-Booster-Car-Ultra-Super-Capacitor-/300900579759)

Get a better battery instead.

Edit: Also photoinduction tried this thing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_pzljtJapE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_pzljtJapE)

Available in the US as well but on a different name brand?
http://www.amazon.com/Current-13600mAh-Portable-Starter-Flashlight/dp/B00I02SVOC (http://www.amazon.com/Current-13600mAh-Portable-Starter-Flashlight/dp/B00I02SVOC)

Sorry for the derailment.

Let them start a diesel engine with that thing. I measured the current draw from the battery on my old mk2 Golf years ago. It drew 50 Amps to heat up the glowplugs for 5 to 10 seconds and then over 400A to crank the engine.

Mike started a truck with a Makita drill battery..

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 11, 2015, 10:28:55 am

Quote from: Galenbo on December 11, 2015, 09:48:12 am

Isn't the Ali guy the same as the student guy that posted with different names on their Youtube channel?

No evidence of that.
The fan page kid claims to be "David Parish". But I have evidence he's used other names as well.
However someone on here did suggest it:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=170499 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=170499)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on December 11, 2015, 11:07:59 am

Quote from: meeder on December 11, 2015, 07:10:12 am

Quote from: miguelvp on December 11, 2015, 03:45:39 am

Supercaps in series connected to the battery in parallel would work, however you have to load balance the charge.
I recall seeing some on e-bay, but modifying a car with external power or anything hooked at the electrical system is too risky for my blood.

I prefer my cars not on fire, not saying that device is dangerous but in my mind they are unproven.

Edit: Old listing but the balancer schematic picture is no longer available
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultracapacitor-Diesel-Engine-Battery-Starter-Booster-Car-Ultra-Super-Capacitor-/300900579759 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultracapacitor-Diesel-Engine-Battery-Starter-Booster-Car-Ultra-Super-Capacitor-/300900579759)

Get a better battery instead.

Edit: Also photoinduction tried this thing



Available in the US as well but on a different name brand?
http://www.amazon.com/Current-13600mAh-Portable-Starter-Flashlight/dp/B00I02SVOC (http://www.amazon.com/Current-13600mAh-Portable-Starter-Flashlight/dp/B00I02SVOC)

Sorry for the derailment.

Let them start a diesel engine with that thing. I measured the current draw from the battery on my old mk2 Golf years ago. It drew 50 Amps to heat up the glowplugs for 5 to 10 seconds and then over 400A to crank the engine.

Erm, if you watch the video, you will see him starting a Diesel engine in a Citroen van...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on December 11, 2015, 02:07:53 pm

But it's a French car, that's why.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on December 11, 2015, 02:47:56 pm

Let's see it start a Diesel engine -> here is it starting a Diesel engine -> that doesn't count....  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CrashO on December 11, 2015, 03:14:37 pm

Quote from: Godzil on December 11, 2015, 02:07:53 pm

But it's a French car, that's why.

Correct.
French always runs best  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 11, 2015, 04:32:37 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on December 11, 2015, 03:18:55 pm

How can they claim a UL listing as long as the product tested is not the same as they ship?

They've never claimed to be UL listed.

They had UL perform a battery life test of their own (Batteroo's) design and very carefully word that to fool many people into thinking they're saying it's UL listed when IT IS NOT.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 11, 2015, 07:48:58 pm

Quote from: drussell on December 11, 2015, 04:32:37 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on December 11, 2015, 03:18:55 pm

How can they claim a UL listing as long as the product tested is not the same as they ship?

They've never claimed to be UL listed.

They had UL perform a battery life test of their own (Batteroo's) design and very carefully word that to fool many people into thinking they're saying it's UL listed when IT IS NOT.

It seems that UL regrets doing it. The text of the "UL verified" headline on Batteroo's web page has changed several times now and no longer shows the test results. Presumably showing the one favorable page from the report was against the terms of the agreement (which requires it to be reproduced in full).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 11, 2015, 10:17:29 pm

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v702/brumbymg/EEVblog/Thebestway_zpsa3i0adjc.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/brumbymg/media/EEVblog/Thebestway_zpsa3i0adjc.jpg.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on December 12, 2015, 12:22:00 am

Quote from: meeder on December 11, 2015, 07:10:12 am

Quote from: miguelvp on December 11, 2015, 03:45:39 am

Supercaps in series connected to the battery in parallel would work, however you have to load balance the charge.
I recall seeing some on e-bay, but modifying a car with external power or anything hooked at the electrical system is too risky for my blood.

I prefer my cars not on fire, not saying that device is dangerous but in my mind they are unproven.

Edit: Old listing but the balancer schematic picture is no longer available
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultracapacitor-Diesel-Engine-Battery-Starter-Booster-Car-Ultra-Super-Capacitor-/300900579759 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultracapacitor-Diesel-Engine-Battery-Starter-Booster-Car-Ultra-Super-Capacitor-/300900579759)

Get a better battery instead.

Edit: Also photoinduction tried this thing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_pzljtJapE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_pzljtJapE)

Available in the US as well but on a different name brand?
http://www.amazon.com/Current-13600mAh-Portable-Starter-Flashlight/dp/B00I02SVOC (http://www.amazon.com/Current-13600mAh-Portable-Starter-Flashlight/dp/B00I02SVOC)

Sorry for the derailment.

Let them start a diesel engine with that thing. I measured the current draw from the battery on my old mk2 Golf years ago. It drew 50 Amps to heat up the glowplugs for 5 to 10 seconds and then over 400A to crank the engine.

Err, they did... Watch the vid.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rx8pilot on December 12, 2015, 12:46:14 am

Was that box providing the whole starting current or was it boosting a battery that was just a little short on current?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: l0rd_hex on December 12, 2015, 12:57:23 am

Quote from: rx8pilot on December 12, 2015, 12:46:14 am

Was that box providing the whole starting current or was it boosting a battery that was just a little short on current?

Affix your looking balls on the web filmette and all of your questions will be answered!!!

EDIT: can we get back on topic here?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 12, 2015, 01:23:56 am

OK, time to get back on topic!
Please fork this if needed to chat about starting your car etc...
Too many alerts for non-Batteriser posts.
thx

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ian.M on December 12, 2015, 02:13:34 am

Plan B: See if 3000 batterisers in series-parallel can jump start a car!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on December 12, 2015, 02:17:52 am

12 times this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hwLHdBTQ7s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hwLHdBTQ7s)

But I don't think they are going to make 9V batterisers.

Edit: 18V for two in series and connect them all in parallel it's going to be impossible ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on December 13, 2015, 01:33:04 pm

Quote from: Ian.M on December 12, 2015, 02:13:34 am

Plan B: See if 3000 batterisers in series-parallel can jump start a car!

Like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0utNemFsl8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0utNemFsl8)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ian.M on December 13, 2015, 02:43:12 pm

He looks (and acts) like one of my ex-boss'es cousins, and if anyone could be expected to have a batteriser accidentally explode in their trouser pocket, they could!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on December 17, 2015, 03:56:42 pm

Quote from: McBryce on December 08, 2015, 08:52:31 pm

Quote from: SeanB on December 08, 2015, 07:35:45 pm

Quote from: Rasz on December 08, 2015, 03:13:18 pm

I still dont understand how a product advertised to deliver 2A initially? then lowered to 500mA, can pass FCC testing at 1.5mA and be legit???

its like testing idling plane engine for fuel consumption
edit: bad analogy, its like testing idling plane engine for effective perceived noise level (EPNL)

News from Batterpoo:

" We hired some new engineering staff, ex Volkswagen, who have come up with some proven ways to increase design efficiency under the standardised test conditions"

VW Engineers? So it will output 2Amps on a test fixture, but only 200mA when used in an everyday situation? :D

McBryce.

Maybe it uses a miniture Diesel engine...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brutte on December 17, 2015, 11:06:42 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on December 17, 2015, 03:56:42 pm

Maybe it uses a miniture Diesel engine...

So that is the catch!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2015, 11:12:55 pm

So, the last update was 3 weeks ago...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on December 17, 2015, 11:26:03 pm

And what will be their next excuse? Those battery companies stole the plans?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 18, 2015, 12:33:53 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 17, 2015, 11:12:55 pm

So, the last update was 3 weeks ago...

What happened to:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=187938;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: crispy_tofu on December 18, 2015, 01:42:33 am

Will anybody be happy with the finished product?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on December 18, 2015, 01:45:04 am

Quote from: crispy_tofu on December 18, 2015, 01:42:33 am

Will anybody be happy with the finished product?

I think we all know the answer to that question!  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: warp_foo on December 18, 2015, 01:46:57 am

I am sad. I just had to replace the batteries in my wireless mouse. Had this product shipped on time, I could have had another 4-6 years of productive mousing. Instead, I had to spend a $1 on new batteries.

Damn you, big battery, damn you to hell!

m

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 18, 2015, 01:51:06 am

Quote

ANON: "During the search for 'prior art', our patent attorneys have found a product that challenges the Batteriser ever being patented - or indeed sold in conflict with that prior patent lodgement."

ANON: "Batteroo's legal team have advised that if we proceed with promotion, sales and/or distribution of the Batteriser in any of its existing forms, we will be liable to damages action from the holder of that original filing.  We regret to inform that as of this date, the Batteriser project has officially ceased to exist.   We would like to thank our backers and the Batteroo team for their commitment and hard work to realise our hopes, and wish you a Merry Christmas (we'll certainly enjoy ours!)."

For those that are a bit full of Christmas 'cheer' (or really thick) - this post is 'tongue-in-cheek'...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on December 18, 2015, 02:01:03 am

^   :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rx8pilot on December 18, 2015, 02:16:38 am

Sooooo.......they keep they money?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 18, 2015, 02:22:51 am

Quote from: crispy_tofu on December 18, 2015, 01:42:33 am

Will anybody be happy with the finished product?

Maybe those without any electronics knowledge.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on December 18, 2015, 03:59:53 am

Quote from: rx8pilot on December 18, 2015, 02:16:38 am

Sooooo.......they keep they money?

No. If this is true, they are about to get sued for every cent they own.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rx8pilot on December 18, 2015, 04:02:53 am

I was so excited to see this revolutionary power source. Moment of silence.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 18, 2015, 04:05:39 am

Quote from: ccs46 on December 18, 2015, 03:59:53 am

Quote from: rx8pilot on December 18, 2015, 02:16:38 am

Sooooo.......they keep they money?

No. If this is true, they are about to get sued for every cent they own.

Umm, it's a joke.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 18, 2015, 04:08:48 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 18, 2015, 04:05:39 am

Umm, it's a joke.

Too much Christmas 'spirit' for that one!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 18, 2015, 04:21:44 am

On Facebook:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v702/brumbymg/EEVblog/batteriserFB_zpsmbagrrna.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/brumbymg/media/EEVblog/batteriserFB_zpsmbagrrna.jpg.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 18, 2015, 04:25:45 am

... and that's why I'm not on Facebook!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on December 18, 2015, 04:27:39 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 18, 2015, 04:05:39 am

Quote from: ccs46 on December 18, 2015, 03:59:53 am

Quote from: rx8pilot on December 18, 2015, 02:16:38 am

Sooooo.......they keep they money?

No. If this is true, they are about to get sued for every cent they own.

Umm, it's a joke.

Oh, I didn't realize he said "tongue and cheek" xD


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on December 18, 2015, 04:35:34 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 18, 2015, 04:21:44 am

On Facebook:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v702/brumbymg/EEVblog/batteriserFB_zpsmbagrrna.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/brumbymg/media/EEVblog/batteriserFB_zpsmbagrrna.jpg.html)

More deliberately vague weasel words:

"ship out for the New Year"

turns out to mean

"We will be shipping out at the beginning of the new year"

with no indication which New Year they're referring to.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 18, 2015, 04:37:19 am

Quote from: SL4P on December 18, 2015, 04:25:45 am

... and that's why I'm not on Facebook!

I only got onto Facebook to follow the Mars rover, Curiosity - otherwise I avoid it like the plague.  On rare occasions there is something almost worth reporting ... such as this.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 18, 2015, 06:00:15 am

Quote from: Howardlong on December 18, 2015, 04:35:34 am

More deliberately vague weasel words:
"ship out for the New Year"

If they actually had the units ready to ship you can bet your bottom dollar Bob would be crowing about on Idiegogo, show photos etc.
But no, just a vaguely worded update on Facebook.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: crispy_tofu on December 18, 2015, 06:11:47 am

Quote from: Howardlong on December 18, 2015, 04:35:34 am

"We will be shipping out at the beginning of the new year"

And then they'll accidentally use a carrier that takes another year to deliver (true story)!! Whoops!  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 18, 2015, 11:18:01 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 18, 2015, 06:00:15 am

Quote from: Howardlong on December 18, 2015, 04:35:34 am

More deliberately vague weasel words:
"ship out for the New Year"

If they actually had the units ready to ship you can bet your bottom dollar Bob would be crowing about on Idiegogo, show photos etc.
But no, just a vaguely worded update on Facebook.

That's the thing. They can't ship anything. Even if they have them ready to go. As soon as they ship them the game is over.

...and if they don't ship them the game will soon be over, too. Batteriser has publicly claimed that retail devices will be available before New Year. They can't keep up the "first samples will be here next week" type bullshit any longer. They could maybe have one more manufacturing glitch that "forced them to switch supplier" but that's it.

Meanwhile: This is exactly the wrong time of year to be looking for a big contract from somebody like Walmart. Walmart won't be looking for any new product lines until February-March. The clock is ticking, Bob, the clock is ticking.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 18, 2015, 12:10:44 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 18, 2015, 11:18:01 am

Meanwhile: This is exactly the wrong time of year to be looking for a big contract from somebody like Walmart. Walmart won't be looking for any new product lines until February-March. The clock is ticking, Bob, the clock is ticking.

The battery in the clock has run out. Quick, better pop in a Batteriser! Oh, that's right, they don't have them yet, not even ones to send to the media  ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 18, 2015, 12:18:53 pm

I'd be interested in some of the 500ma versions to look at.

I mean, they won't work in high current devices, even though they claimed they'd seen the greatest gains in high current devices, but it would be interesting to see if they even exist!  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on December 18, 2015, 12:36:22 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 18, 2015, 12:18:53 pm

I'd be interested in some of the 500ma versions to look at.

I mean, they won't work in high current devices, even though they claimed they'd seen the greatest gains in high current devices, but it would be interesting to see if they even exist!  :popcorn:

Well, since we have never seen an actual, real, batteriser up close and tested, (the keyboard and gps vids could be "props") perhaps they ran out of the same cardboard they used on the C/D "mockup"

Or, maybe they only made 2 or 3 of them and used those for the videos and marketing fluff

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 18, 2015, 12:46:50 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 18, 2015, 12:18:53 pm

I'd be interested in some of the 500ma versions to look at.
I mean, they won't work in high current devices, even though they claimed they'd seen the greatest gains in high current devices, but it would be interesting to see if they even exist!  :popcorn:

All of their claims, including the ones of high current devices have all come before:
a) They acknowledged they needed a high current version
and
b) By their own admission couldn't have had (and still don't) even have the high current version to test anything with.

All we know for certain is that their prototypes exist, which they have now admitted have the "low current" 500mA chip in it. And those prototypes were physically and/or electrically flaky as witnessed when some media actually played with them and they wouldn't work.
No one has ever seen a production version, nor have they proudly shown them off. Even when they were supposedly ready to ship, before this recent ASIC high current re-spin delay.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 18, 2015, 12:50:28 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on December 18, 2015, 12:36:22 pm

Or, maybe they only made 2 or 3 of them and used those for the videos and marketing fluff

That seems to be the case.
They definitely shows prototypes to Yahoo who couldn't get it working:
https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html (https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html)

Quote

Trouble With Our Test
Yahoo Makers was only able to try out the Batteriser briefly in our offices.
After Roohparvar successfully demonstrated the Batteriser prototype in his Apple keyboard, we tried it out in a regular flashlight and in a Bluetooth mouse. This time, though, it failed to make contact and power the devices. Roohparvar thought the positive tip wasn’t quite lined up where it needed to be and said the production version would be much more resilient. He offered to give Yahoo Makers another unit to test soon.

And wow, 427 comments on that article!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 18, 2015, 01:42:14 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 18, 2015, 12:50:28 pm

They definitely shows prototypes to Yahoo who couldn't get it working:
https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html (https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html)

The article is from July 2015. They were developing this since 2010 and didn't manage to get the sleeve right for the Yahoo test, and later discovered that there are battery powered devices which need more than 500 mA. Based on this track record, a usuable product might be ready in 2020 :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 18, 2015, 07:58:19 pm

Quote

We are getting closer to shipment and optimistic about our progress. You can expect your Batterisers this January.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 18, 2015, 08:49:28 pm

Quote from: quad on December 18, 2015, 07:58:19 pm

Quote

We are getting closer to shipment and optimistic about our progress. You can expect your Batterisers this January.

What day in January?

What happened to "for new Year"?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 18, 2015, 09:15:52 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 18, 2015, 08:49:28 pm

Quote from: quad on December 18, 2015, 07:58:19 pm

Quote

We are getting closer to shipment and optimistic about our progress. You can expect your Batterisers this January.

What day in January?

What happened to "for new Year"?

When they said "for", they meant "in"

Mind you, to expect the butterisers this January, they'd have to start shipping, well, right now actually...

Which would of course mean they'd have to already be built........

Which if this was the case, Bob would have told us by now......................................................................dotdotdotDOT!

edit: 7,390 backers, I think thats about 15 down from when the campaign ended? that could be 15 "backers" all with the same IP address... :P

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 18, 2015, 09:20:22 pm

My gag thread for the day...
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/capacitors-batteriser-and-static-charges/msg824552/#msg824552 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/capacitors-batteriser-and-static-charges/msg824552/#msg824552)

Also a bit worried that.Bob is only 'optimistic' about their progress...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 18, 2015, 09:54:15 pm

My suggestion is for manufactures include a compartment in their battery equipped stuff and include a Batteriser in the compartment for emergency power of the device.

I think Dave should make a compartment in his MM for a Batteriser and use this as a selling point, first MM with emergency power backup.

I bet if the Batteriser works, someday you will see stuff with compartments for them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 18, 2015, 10:02:09 pm

Bob already has a compartment for spare batteries... ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on December 18, 2015, 10:29:38 pm

Quote from: ez24 on December 18, 2015, 09:54:15 pm

I bet if the Batteriser works, someday you will see stuff with compartments for them.

If it worked (which it won't) they'd just include the batteriser circuitry on the devices circuit board! Massively cheaper than making compartments for them.

Oh, wait.... they already do include circuitry to make the most of the battery.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 19, 2015, 10:52:04 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=188161;image)

Ah, so its a "newer", "more accessible" version of the butteriser they've chosen to go with.

The one that hasn't been designed, prototyped, built, or tested  :-+

Much more accessible!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 19, 2015, 10:54:58 am

More accessible than what?
The existing one?
Give me a break...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 19, 2015, 10:55:58 am

I don't think they quite understand the concept of "stocking stuffers".... and thanking someone...  :-DD

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=188163;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on December 19, 2015, 11:21:37 am

Bob says deliveries in January now. Eternal optimist.
More accessible could mean they gave up on their own IC and went shopping on DigiKey. Good luck with 1.5A or even 500mA from a AAA battery then.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 19, 2015, 11:21:43 am

"more accessible" .... ?

What the bloody hell does that mean?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr.diesel on December 19, 2015, 11:29:52 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 19, 2015, 11:21:43 am

"more accessible" .... ?

What the bloody hell does that mean?

Something more accessible that took longer, LMAO.    :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 19, 2015, 11:58:17 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on December 19, 2015, 11:21:37 am

Bob says deliveries in January now. Eternal optimist.
More accessible could mean they gave up on their own IC and went shopping on DigiKey. Good luck with 1.5A or even 500mA from a AAA battery then.

Own IC?  :-DD After showing so much competence I'd think they fell victim to some start-up in a garage with the same business plan.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 19, 2015, 12:40:01 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 18, 2015, 01:42:14 pm

The article is from July 2015. They were developing this since 2010 and didn't manage to get the sleeve right for the Yahoo test, and later discovered that there are battery powered devices which need more than 500 mA. Based on this track record, a usuable product might be ready in 2020 :)

Doesn't instill a lot of confidence does it  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 19, 2015, 12:44:09 pm

Who's actually writing the Batteriser Facebook posts I wonder?
The cognitive dissonance is strong with this one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on December 19, 2015, 12:44:50 pm

Yes it's likely the Facebook is not managed by the same persons :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 19, 2015, 06:50:26 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 19, 2015, 11:21:43 am

"more accessible" .... ?

What the bloody hell does that mean?

According to this article, normal human beings aren't able to get the old one onto a battery:

https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html (https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html)

Quote

"Yahoo Makers was only able to try out the Batteriser briefly in our offices.

After Roohparvar successfully demonstrated the Batteriser prototype in his Apple keyboard, we tried it out in a regular flashlight and in a Bluetooth mouse. This time, though, it failed to make contact and power the devices. Roohparvar thought the positive tip wasn’t quite lined up where it needed to be and said the production version would be much more resilient. He offered to give Yahoo Makers another unit to test soon."

Maybe "more accessible" means that they've fixed that.

Or maybe the entire thing is a lie and the "Apple Keyboard test" is done with a hacked keyboard and remote control in Bob's pocket.

It's the only demo that's ever been done outside of Batteriser, the only time anybody has seen one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 19, 2015, 07:28:05 pm

 :-DD

Normal human beings ?,

Good luck finding one of those..... |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on December 19, 2015, 08:12:46 pm

Another battery test was conducted at Batteroo HQ in the presence of a Danish journalist:
'To test whether Batteriser now also works, we put a nearly empty battery in a small Brio trains and lit it. The train crawled forward across the railway tracks. We measured the battery to still have 1 V back and sat as the small Batteriser jacket on. And immediately popped off the train energetic start browsing.'

So, they do have a functioning sleeve, but as stated before, anybody could make one from readily available components. The challenge is to deliver on the outlandish performance claims made in their publications and statements. So far, no demonstration has corroborated such a feat.
As we know, the prognostic is rather grim.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 20, 2015, 12:48:27 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on December 19, 2015, 11:21:37 am

Bob says deliveries in January now. Eternal optimist.
More accessible could mean they gave up on their own IC and went shopping on DigiKey. Good luck with 1.5A or even 500mA from a AAA battery then.

The butteriser webpage says that if you order now, they'll ship on 31st December.

That's pretty good going!

Design, prototype, test, and manufacture 10,000 butterisers in 11 days! With Christmas in the middle too!  :scared:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 20, 2015, 02:11:23 am

10k units from China is doable.
QC may be dubious if they have only 'just' received the 'new' chips...
I wonder if any change was needed for the revised + terminal profile, as referenced in the Yahoo review...
Perhaps a new storage case?
Also shipping next week with no (as yet) published UL certification.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 20, 2015, 09:25:56 am

Quote from: SL4P on December 20, 2015, 02:11:23 am

Also shipping next week with no (as yet) published UL certification.

It never had a "UL certification".

UL just watched the GPS test from a distance and said "Yup, it's just like in the video". They didn't take anything apart, didn't check the wiring, nothing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 20, 2015, 01:07:59 pm

There is no reason for them to bother getting UL certification, CSA approval or any kind of safety certification except marketing wankery.  Battery operated devices like this don't require any safety certification. 

Now, as to whether they'd be smart to do some safety tests to attempt to be sure the thing's not going to burst into flames, that's another story!  :)  I don't have any confidence at all in their abilities to properly test their own product given their complete lack of basic knowledge and understanding, willful ignorance or whatever their problem is, whether or not all this hokery-dokery that they're doing is intentional or not, given their previously released information (and lack thereof), claims and "test" protocols, etc...  :palm:

Simply clueless!!  (Or, perhaps, extremely brazen to try to fool people with such obvious quackery if they really do understand that their product is an impossible fraud...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 20, 2015, 01:18:44 pm

Since I can't comment on the IGG page, I'll do it here...

(http://i.imgur.com/COEwMuj.png])

Gaaa!  Of course not!!  A Batteriser will make this kind of problem much more likely!

:palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 20, 2015, 01:38:35 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 19, 2015, 10:52:04 am

(http://i.imgur.com/LYr6sa6.png)

Quote from: Brumby on December 19, 2015, 11:21:43 am

"more accessible" .... ?

What the bloody hell does that mean?

I assumed that means that their "prototype" design (whether this was really their own design, a modification to or custom version of an existing chip) couldn't be scaled/modified any time soon to deliver the kind of output current and general performance they need for it not to be considered a laughingstock.  My guess is they're going with some other, already available (more accessible) chip.  :)

My gut feeling has always been that there is only about 1% chance at most that they were actually really spinning their own chip design from scratch.

This whole sordid tale is just :palm:...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 20, 2015, 02:08:03 pm

Quote from: drussell on December 20, 2015, 01:18:44 pm

Since I can't comment on the IGG page, I'll do it here...

(http://i.imgur.com/COEwMuj.png])

Gaaa!  Of course not!!  A Batteriser will make this kind of problem much more likely!

:palm:

No, no, no.... Batteriser makes batteries completely safe!


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=188461;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 20, 2015, 02:21:07 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 20, 2015, 02:08:03 pm

No, no, no.... Batteriser makes batteries completely safe!

Oh, I'm well aware of their claims, I just don't believe them for one minute!  :)

It's supposedly taken them, what, 5-6 years to reinvent the LM2623 (which has been available for, what, 10+ years?) :palm:

What an absolute farce!!...  :bullshit:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on December 20, 2015, 11:20:14 pm

Quote from: drussell on December 20, 2015, 01:38:35 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 19, 2015, 10:52:04 am

(http://i.imgur.com/LYr6sa6.png)

Quote from: Brumby on December 19, 2015, 11:21:43 am

"more accessible" .... ?

What the bloody hell does that mean?

My gut feeling has always been that there is only about 1% chance at most that they were actually really spinning their own chip design from scratch.

Yup. They might be in the queue for a specific existing niche IC, which can have lead times of 40 and 50 weeks, but spinning their own IC is really a stretch.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on December 21, 2015, 02:43:06 am

"Go with a new more accessible version" may just mean they gave up the 1.5A version (either due to no IC or realized it is not achievable), and went back to the 500mA version.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 21, 2015, 02:52:00 am

Quote from: onlooker on December 21, 2015, 02:43:06 am

"Go with a new more accessible version" may just mean they gave up the 1.5A version (either due to no IC or realized it is not achievable), and went back to the 500mA version.

Seems like a likely scenario given that they are now promising (at least on Facebook) to ship by 31st Dec!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 21, 2015, 04:18:35 am

Next update is the factory was in that complex that was damaged by a land slippage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on December 21, 2015, 10:12:33 am

Quote from: SeanB on December 21, 2015, 04:18:35 am

Next update is the factory was in that complex that was damaged by a land slippage.

Don't give them idea like that!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on December 21, 2015, 11:55:44 am

Oh they'll ship by the new year... The Chinese New Year!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: coppice on December 21, 2015, 12:13:39 pm

Quote from: kalleboo on December 21, 2015, 11:55:44 am

Oh they'll ship by the new year... The Chinese New Year!

A Chinese New Year

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on December 21, 2015, 06:34:21 pm

I vote "Never"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on December 21, 2015, 06:41:45 pm

It's "Next Monday" when you mean never.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on December 21, 2015, 09:44:00 pm

Quote from: Godzil on December 21, 2015, 06:41:45 pm

It's "Next Monday" when you mean never.

Won't be delivered until Tuesday

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on December 22, 2015, 02:38:05 am

So the problems with the patent continues; last Thursday patent examiner found the reconsideration arguments to the final rejection notice to be unconvincing (none of the claims they filed made it) and Friday, Batteroo filed for an appeal... the full appeal process takes 1.5-2.5, years and odds on average are not in favor.

Interesting Roohparvar saying Batteriser can function as a safety device. If I remember correctly,  that was one of the examiners arguments...that it could be seen as a safety device and therefore overlaps some other existing prior arts.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 22, 2015, 05:15:33 am

Intellectual Property can be a bitch.


.... but sometimes it's satisfying to see certain parties get bitten in the bum.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 22, 2015, 05:40:38 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on December 22, 2015, 02:38:05 am

So the problems with the patent continues; last Thursday patent examiner found the reconsideration arguments to the final rejection notice to be unconvincing (none of the claims they filed made it) and Friday, Batteroo filed for an appeal... the full appeal process takes 1.5-2.5, years and odds on average are not in favor.

Interesting Roohparvar saying Batteriser can function as a safety device. If I remember correctly,  that was one of the examiners arguments...that it could be seen as a safety device and therefore overlaps some other existing prior arts.

Hmm, so their delays could be at least somewhat influenced by their approach to patents...  Interesting...  :)

Links?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 22, 2015, 07:28:13 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on December 22, 2015, 02:38:05 am

So the problems with the patent continues; last Thursday patent examiner found the reconsideration arguments to the final rejection notice to be unconvincing (none of the claims they filed made it) and Friday, Batteroo filed for an appeal... the full appeal process takes 1.5-2.5, years and odds on average are not in favor.
Interesting Roohparvar saying Batteriser can function as a safety device. If I remember correctly,  that was one of the examiners arguments...that it could be seen as a safety device and therefore overlaps some other existing prior arts.

Got to wonder how that affects any plans to sell the company? (That's usually the end game for the VC's)
No one will likely touch it without the patents.
1.5 years to appeal basically sinks the whole thing. They no longer have patents worth a penny.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 22, 2015, 07:34:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 22, 2015, 07:28:13 am

No one will likely touch it without the patents.

I couldn't agree more.

Who would buy a company/product without security on the very element of value in such a deal?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ErikTheNorwegian on December 22, 2015, 09:23:55 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 22, 2015, 07:34:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 22, 2015, 07:28:13 am

No one will likely touch it without the patents.

I couldn't agree more.

Who would buy a company/product without security on the very element of value in such a deal?

This guy would!  He could team up with the Batteriser crew!  (http://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_large/public/thumbnails/image/2015/09/29/12/Martin-Shkreli.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 22, 2015, 09:32:53 am

Quote from: drussell on December 22, 2015, 05:40:38 am

Hmm, so their delays could be at least somewhat influenced by their approach to patents... 

Not really. If the patent has been filed then it's theirs. Anybody using the IP runs the risk of being sued if they win the appeal.

So the "delays" aren't because of patents, other than them spending time messing about at the patent office instead of moving boxes of batterisers.

Then again, I'm sure they have a "team" for box packing and a separate "team" working on the patents. They certainly have "teams" for everything else. It's not just two guys in a tiny office, honest!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on December 22, 2015, 09:50:17 am

It seems to me that these guys didn't plan to deliver anything but instead they planned that someone fool enough with the money would buy their patents and paper-company, and the batteriser-guys would be off the hook with the new money in their pockets. The new proud owners of the batteriser-company would then have a pile of s**t in their hands and possibly obligation to deliver the devices which would never work as advertised.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 22, 2015, 10:36:36 am

Quote from: Kalvin on December 22, 2015, 09:50:17 am

It seems to me that these guys didn't plan to deliver anything but instead they planned that someone fool enough with the money would buy their patents and paper-company, and the batteriser-guys would be off the hook with the new money in their pockets. The new proud owners of the batteriser-company would then have a pile of s**t in their hands and possibly obligation to deliver the devices which would never work as advertised.

Yep.

It's obvious from their videos, etc. that they know something about electronics.

It's also obvious from their videos that they know Batteriser doesn't/can't work (testing a Batteriser is very simple - two identical devices, one clock...no need for all that smoke and mirrors)

That makes them liars (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie).

They've also taken people's money so that makes them thieves (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/thief), too.

The comedy value of the videos plus Ali's macho chest beating and dumpster references are worthy of a thread here, but let's not forget what sort of people they are.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rx8pilot on December 22, 2015, 05:08:57 pm

Once this project finds itself at its final resting place, what happens to the money they have collected?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 22, 2015, 05:27:48 pm

The backers/saps/gulliblefools who provided the seed money and the VC money will be out of pocket, with the scammers off to spend whatever they have left that they squirrelled away from those looking for them. Probably move to another town, and rinse and repeat.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on December 22, 2015, 07:57:02 pm

Quote from: SeanB on December 22, 2015, 05:27:48 pm

The backers/saps/gulliblefools who provided the seed money and the VC money will be out of pocket, with the scammers off to spend whatever they have left that they squirrelled away from those looking for them. Probably move to another town, and rinse and repeat.

No need to move. In SV these days, behavior like Batteroo's is regarded as an impeccable industry credential.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 22, 2015, 09:01:09 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 22, 2015, 07:57:02 pm

No need to move. In SV these days, behavior like Batteroo's is regarded as an impeccable industry credential.

Yep. After this he'll have 500 patents AND a successful crowdfunding campaign on his CV.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on December 22, 2015, 09:40:09 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 22, 2015, 07:57:02 pm

Quote from: SeanB on December 22, 2015, 05:27:48 pm

The backers/saps/gulliblefools who provided the seed money and the VC money will be out of pocket, with the scammers off to spend whatever they have left that they squirrelled away from those looking for them. Probably move to another town, and rinse and repeat.

No need to move. In SV these days, behavior like Batteroo's is regarded as an impeccable industry credential.

No, it is not.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 22, 2015, 09:48:48 pm

So, effectively disabling the low battery warning in (potentially) a mission critical situation... e.g.emergency radios or lights - is a 'feature'?

OK Bob, if you say so.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 22, 2015, 10:46:32 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 22, 2015, 09:32:53 am

Quote from: drussell on December 22, 2015, 05:40:38 am

Hmm, so their delays could be at least somewhat influenced by their approach to patents... 

Not really. If the patent has been filed then it's theirs. Anybody using the IP runs the risk of being sued if they win the appeal.

But that's not the issue for Batteriser.
Their patent game isn't to stop anyone else coming out with the same idea, it is so they have something of value to sell.
Any company looking to buy Batteriser will do due-diligence on the patents to find out where they are at and see that it's essentially been rejected twice already. That should really scare them off.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on December 23, 2015, 12:02:03 am

I know a little bit about the patent system; my best friend is a former USPTO Examiner. They will not win their appeal. I absolutely 800% guarantee it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on December 23, 2015, 12:34:09 am

8 times a normal guarantee… That’s impressive.
Can you substantiate that claim?
Perhaps by using a toy monkey to demonstrate.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: free_electron on December 23, 2015, 12:55:27 am

Quote from: timb on December 23, 2015, 12:02:03 am

I know a little bit about the patent system; my best friend is a former USPTO Examiner. They will not win their appeal. I absolutely 800% guarantee it.

using a batteriser to jack up from 100 % ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on December 23, 2015, 01:36:48 am

Quote from: photon on December 22, 2015, 09:40:09 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 22, 2015, 07:57:02 pm

Quote from: SeanB on December 22, 2015, 05:27:48 pm

The backers/saps/gulliblefools who provided the seed money and the VC money will be out of pocket, with the scammers off to spend whatever they have left that they squirrelled away from those looking for them. Probably move to another town, and rinse and repeat.

No need to move. In SV these days, behavior like Batteroo's is regarded as an impeccable industry credential.

No, it is not.

Based on some of the yoyos I meet, it would sure seem to be that way. If I meet another "Serial Entrepreneur" out of that little hamlet, I will probably vomit on their shoes. Granted, they probably had to head north because no one would hire them locally...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 23, 2015, 02:20:40 am

Quote from: timb on December 23, 2015, 12:02:03 am

I know a little bit about the patent system; my best friend is a former USPTO Examiner. They will not win their appeal. I absolutely 800% guarantee it.

 :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 23, 2015, 02:28:59 am

Quote from: timb on December 23, 2015, 12:02:03 am

I know a little bit about the patent system; my best friend is a former USPTO Examiner. They will not win their appeal. I absolutely 800% guarantee it.

Even if it was an 80% chance of being rejected, and had a 20% chance of winning, no investor is going to touch it.
It seems that the only thing that will save Batteroo now is that magical order from Walmart or someone they have been trying to get.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on December 23, 2015, 02:49:43 am

Hi,

I don't recall if this has been covered before, they have added Sammy Saloum to their team. He was a VP with Radio Shack.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=188961;image)

I assume that he is on their team to try and get the product into retail establishments.

Regarding investors, if they do the smallest amount of research they should find this thread....

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on December 23, 2015, 03:02:15 am

Quote from: free_electron on December 23, 2015, 12:55:27 am

Quote from: timb on December 23, 2015, 12:02:03 am

I know a little bit about the patent system; my best friend is a former USPTO Examiner. They will not win their appeal. I absolutely 800% guarantee it.

using a batteriser to jack up from 100 % ?

Exactly.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on December 23, 2015, 03:04:55 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on December 23, 2015, 02:49:43 am

Hi,

I don't recall if this has been covered before, they have added Sammy Saloum to their team. He was a VP with Radio Shack.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=188961;image)

I assume that he is on their team to try and get the product into retail establishments.

Regarding investors, if they do the smallest amount of research they should find this thread....

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Wow, quite a resume this guy has. Let's see... CompUSA, mismanaged and out of business. Radio Shack, mismanaged and bankruptcy....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 23, 2015, 03:10:04 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on December 23, 2015, 02:49:43 am

I don't recall if this has been covered before, they have added Sammy Saloum to their team. He was a VP with Radio Shack.
I assume that he is on their team to try and get the product into retail establishments.

That's presumably what they had Warren Flick on the board for (Former K-Mart President), until, well, they either they gave him the Flick, or he left.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on December 23, 2015, 03:25:59 am

Quote from: Mr.B on December 23, 2015, 12:34:09 am

8 times a normal guarantee… That’s impressive.
Can you substantiate that claim?
Perhaps by using a toy monkey to demonstrate.

Don't forget the probes  :-DD :-DD :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AF6LJ on December 23, 2015, 03:43:41 am

Quote from: timb on December 23, 2015, 03:04:55 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on December 23, 2015, 02:49:43 am

Hi,

I don't recall if this has been covered before, they have added Sammy Saloum to their team. He was a VP with Radio Shack.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=188961;image)

I assume that he is on their team to try and get the product into retail establishments.

Regarding investors, if they do the smallest amount of research they should find this thread....

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Wow, quite a resume this guy has. Let's see... CompUSA, mismanaged and out of business. Radio Shack, mismanaged and bankruptcy....

I wonder if he was involved with Computer City which also had an untimely ending.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on December 23, 2015, 08:19:15 pm

Quote from: timb on December 23, 2015, 03:04:55 am

Wow, quite a resume this guy has. Let's see... CompUSA, mismanaged and out of business. Radio Shack, mismanaged and bankruptcy....

If "apple is the graveyard of Tesla"http://www.marketwatch.com/story/elon-musk-heres-why-we-call-apple-the-tesla-graveyard-2015-10-09 (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/elon-musk-heres-why-we-call-apple-the-tesla-graveyard-2015-10-09), Batterizer is the graveyard of the rest of the industry :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 24, 2015, 04:30:46 am

Quote from: SeanB on December 21, 2015, 04:18:35 am

Next update is the factory was in that complex that was damaged by a land slippage.

LMAO!

You should stop giving them ideas!

 :-DD

Quote

Unfortunately, due to a tragic heavy landslide in Shenzhen, China  this week,  we are now facing additional slight delays.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=189214;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on December 24, 2015, 04:40:46 am

Quote from: Godzil on December 21, 2015, 10:12:33 am

Quote from: SeanB on December 21, 2015, 04:18:35 am

Next update is the factory was in that complex that was damaged by a land slippage.

Don't give them idea like that!

Wow.. you guys called it right on! 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 24, 2015, 04:41:17 am

The landslide bit was funny, good call SeanB!

Now they are just saying another couple of weeks, so it seems they are actually going to ship these things?
If they wanted to delay big-time then they could have with the fab problem. But nope, it's all tested and ready to go.
They game is up once they ship!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 24, 2015, 04:42:43 am

Quote from: Smokey on December 24, 2015, 04:40:46 am

Quote from: Godzil on December 21, 2015, 10:12:33 am

Quote from: SeanB on December 21, 2015, 04:18:35 am

Next update is the factory was in that complex that was damaged by a land slippage.

Don't give them idea like that!

Wow.. you guys called it right on!

There has been a remarkable parallel with things/ideas said on this forum which then Batteriser have used days or weeks later. Maybe 4-5 things now?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 24, 2015, 04:49:01 am

BS detector just went off scale positive. Either it just blew or the depth is in the kilometre range.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on December 24, 2015, 04:50:56 am

Chinese holidays is next, I threw that idea some days ago. Watch it happening.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on December 24, 2015, 04:59:24 am

Just in case, should they run out of ideas:
- "My dog ate the schematics"
- "My cat peed on the computer containing backers' contact information"
- "The shipping container fell into ocean"
- "The shipping container is robbed/lost"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on December 24, 2015, 05:14:12 am

Quote from: Kalvin on December 24, 2015, 04:59:24 am

- "My dog ate the schematics"

This indeed can happen, I saw with my own eyes my friend's dog ate his Dissertation. Well, a good chunk of it.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on December 24, 2015, 05:29:22 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 24, 2015, 04:42:43 am

Quote from: Smokey on December 24, 2015, 04:40:46 am

Quote from: Godzil on December 21, 2015, 10:12:33 am

Quote from: SeanB on December 21, 2015, 04:18:35 am

Next update is the factory was in that complex that was damaged by a land slippage.

Don't give them idea like that!

Wow.. you guys called it right on!

There has been a remarkable parallel with things/ideas said on this forum which then Batteriser have used days or weeks later. Maybe 4-5 things now?

The short circuit issue begat the coating.

The uselessness of the device for low current draw devices like remotes has got us 500 to 1500 mA spec change and the "Fab Delay."

Pointing out the the RF interference issue got us the ridiculously-gamed FCC class B test.

Pointing out that 0.8V was the industry standard for "dead" forced Batteroo to give up on the energy extraction down to 0.5V nonsense.

Testing devices' actual dropout voltages got the admission that 0.9-1.1V was actually where devices cutoff at, not the 1.35V got more claims changes.

So yes, it's fair to think Bob and Frankie keep tabs on this thread.  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 24, 2015, 05:35:39 am

Container loss is also very common, there are quite a few sitting on the ocean floor or bobbing along just on the surface.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFxtNsUPRKE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFxtNsUPRKE)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRU2PxMOh18 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRU2PxMOh18)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 24, 2015, 05:41:53 am

This sounds like a great opportunity to collate a 'real' list of the remaining excuses Batteroo can roll out before they're exposed to their backers... and fall into a deep hole.

To start the ball rolling, we had the mudslide...
Chinese New Year is a strong contender for 7-10 days minimum delay.

A global shortage of 'something' - other than integrity could add to the list.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on December 24, 2015, 06:05:34 am

"The funds were in bitcoins and the bitcoins are now robbed."
"My dog ate the paper slip containing the bitcoin password."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Urs42 on December 24, 2015, 06:38:16 am

"My pony-tail hit the on/off switch on the power strip."
"Evil dogs hypnotised the night shift"

They can find more excuses on http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~ballard/bofh/bofhserver.pl (http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~ballard/bofh/bofhserver.pl)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 24, 2015, 06:46:16 am

"The container ship was diverted to another port due to mechanical problems."

"The shipment got held up by Customs."

"They delivered the wrongs containers to us.  Instead of Batterisers, we received 600 pieces of hand carved furniture and 2000 cane baskets."

"A water main burst and flooded the warehouse."

"A sink hole opened up under the loading dock and we've been locked out of our building for our own safety."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 24, 2015, 06:50:11 am

That's not what an "update" is, Bob.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=189242;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 24, 2015, 06:53:49 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 24, 2015, 05:29:22 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 24, 2015, 04:42:43 am

Quote from: Smokey on December 24, 2015, 04:40:46 am

Quote from: Godzil on December 21, 2015, 10:12:33 am

Quote from: SeanB on December 21, 2015, 04:18:35 am

Next update is the factory was in that complex that was damaged by a land slippage.

Don't give them idea like that!

Wow.. you guys called it right on!

There has been a remarkable parallel with things/ideas said on this forum which then Batteriser have used days or weeks later. Maybe 4-5 things now?

The short circuit issue begat the coating.

The uselessness of the device for low current draw devices like remotes has got us 500 to 1500 mA spec change and the "Fab Delay."

Pointing out the the RF interference issue got us the ridiculously-gamed FCC class B test.

Pointing out that 0.8V was the industry standard for "dead" forced Batteroo to give up on the energy extraction down to 0.5V nonsense.

Testing devices' actual dropout voltages got the admission that 0.9-1.1V was actually where devices cutoff at, not the 1.35V got more claims changes.

So yes, it's fair to think Bob and Frankie keep tabs on this thread.  ;D

When someone made a humourous comment on this forum about the spelling of "Engineeer" in Bob's title on their website my change tracker showed that the spelling was corrected within a day. They definitely monitor this thread.

Oh, did anyone else notice the sneaky little change to "1300mA" current handling now, rather than the previous figure drawn from someone's hat of 1.5A?

And interesting their wording to supporters: "...As you may recall, we initially planned to ship the 500mA beta version of the Batteriser..."
That is disingenuous, to say the least.
They were promoting it from the word go as a device that would handle whatever current the battery would put out, they never initially put a 500mA figure on that; not when the backers were handing over their cash at any rate.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 24, 2015, 07:02:17 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 24, 2015, 04:41:17 am

Now they are just saying another couple of weeks

They said the same thing two weeks ago.

And two weeks before that...

Quote from: EEVblog on December 24, 2015, 04:41:17 am

so it seems they are actually going to ship these things?

Shall we start a pool to guess the shipping date?   :popcorn:

I'm predicting a long string of incredible bad luck.

A landslide is good for at least two more delays while they sift through the rubble to find the lost blueprints, rebuild the factory, etc.

That takes them to Chinese new year. It's a well known fact that nobody in China works for a whole month during new year.

After that they can lose the shipping container at sea...send another one, have it stolen by some "Somalian pirates" employed by Big Battery...

Then they can just close the whole thing down because they "ran out of money".

(But hey! It wasn't their fault, they tried their best!)

"Running out of money" is the only option that leaves them personally blameless so they can start over with another scam.

Shipping date? I say never.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 24, 2015, 07:05:03 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 24, 2015, 07:02:17 am

Shall we start a pool to guess the shipping date?   :popcorn:

Will any of us live long enough to claim the pool?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 24, 2015, 07:07:57 am

As much current as your device needs, 500ma, 1500ma, 1300ma, it's all the same thing really!

What happens if you exceed 1300ma though?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 24, 2015, 07:38:10 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 24, 2015, 07:07:57 am

As much current as your device needs, 500ma, 1500ma, 1300ma, it's all the same thing really!

What happens if you exceed 1300ma though?

You can't. The math was done a few pages back (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg807994/#msg807994).

Edit: This post is easier to understand (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg809012/#msg809012).

Quote

Observation

In order to get 1.5W from the cell, the cell must have greater than 70% of capacity left.

1300mA @ 1.5V is 1.95W,  ie. The battery will go into a death spiral almost as soon as you switch the device on.

The idea of Batteriser being useful at 1.95W is pure comedy. Delaying the product to achieve that figure is a farce. :-DD

(Or it would be, if they weren't stealing other people's money...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 24, 2015, 07:46:43 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 24, 2015, 07:38:10 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 24, 2015, 07:07:57 am

As much current as your device needs, 500ma, 1500ma, 1300ma, it's all the same thing really!

What happens if you exceed 1300ma though?

You can't. The math was done a few pages back (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg807994/#msg807994).

Quote

Observation

In order to get 1.5W from the cell, the cell must have greater than 70% of capacity left.

1300mA @ 1.5V is 1.95W,  ie. The battery will go into a death spiral almost as soon as you switch the device on.

The idea of Batteriser being useful at 1.95W is pure comedy. Delaying the product to achieve that figure is a farce. :-DD

(Or it would be, if they weren't stealing other people's money...)

But assuming you have brand new cells, what happens if your digital camera needs 2 amps to charge the flash capacitor?

Remember, they started claiming that the batteriser was to reduce voltage dips that occur when there's a current spike, from the load, on the battery...

Is exceeding the current limit going to result in the voltage dropping just as much, if not more than not having a butteriser on the cell at all? Especially seeing you have basically zero capacitance after the boost regulator...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 24, 2015, 07:56:48 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 24, 2015, 07:46:43 am

But assuming you have brand new cells, what happens if your digital camera needs 2 amps to charge the flash capacitor?

2 amps @ 1.5V is 3W - not going to happen.

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 24, 2015, 07:46:43 am

Remember, they started claiming that the batteriser was to reduce voltage dips that occur when there's a current spike, from the load, on the battery...

 :-DD

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 24, 2015, 07:46:43 am

Is exceeding the current limit going to result in the voltage dropping just as much, if not more than not having a butteriser on the cell at all?

Yes.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg809012/#msg809012 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg809012/#msg809012)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: station240 on December 24, 2015, 09:40:05 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 24, 2015, 07:07:57 am

As much current as your device needs, 500ma, 1500ma, 1300ma, it's all the same thing really!

What happens if you exceed 1300ma though?

Micro black hole opens up, and swallows part of The Batteriser. Looks a lot like the usual magic smoke escaping, but totally not.

Actually I'm wondering how this device is going to cope with very low output currents, going from 10mA to 100uA makes the inductor 100 times the value. The component values I got for plugging some of Batteriser claims into a calculator for boost inverters are comical, would never fit into a AA battery space, much less the tiny area in and around one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on December 24, 2015, 09:44:20 am

Quote from: station240 on December 24, 2015, 09:40:05 am

Actually I'm wondering how this device is going to cope with very low output currents, going from 10mA to 100uA makes the inductor 100 times the value. The component values I got for plugging some of Batteriser claims into a calculator for boost inverters are comical, would never fit into a AA battery space, much less the tiny area in and around one.

Operating frequency in the MHz range + burst mode for low output currents.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 24, 2015, 10:34:27 am

Quote from: station240 on December 24, 2015, 09:40:05 am

Actually I'm wondering how this device is going to cope with very low output currents, going from 10mA to 100uA makes the inductor 100 times the value.

Modern boosters vary their frequency based on load.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on December 24, 2015, 10:36:18 am

Quote

With each passing day,  we are getting closer and closer to shipping your Batterisers.

and

Quote

Unfortunately, in the construction of the updated Batteriser IC, we encountered unexpected technical fabrication process related issues which caused us to miss our estimated November shipping date.

and

Quote

Unfortunately, due to a tragic heavy landslide in Shenzhen, China  this week,  we are now facing additional slight delays.

This reminds me of a story about a snail that has to climb out of a well...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on December 24, 2015, 10:42:35 am

Quote

As you may recall, we initially planned to ship the 500 milli-amp beta version of the Batteriser

No, this is what I recall:

Quote

Are there limitations on devices that can use the Batteriser based on the current consumptions? No, the Batteriser sleeve is designed to deliver as much current as a battery is able to supply to the device.

It's still in your FAQ Bob!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 24, 2015, 11:59:52 am

Quote from: PeterL on December 24, 2015, 10:42:35 am

Quote

As you may recall, we initially planned to ship the 500 milli-amp beta version of the Batteriser

No, this is what I recall:

Quote

Are there limitations on devices that can use the Batteriser based on the current consumptions? No, the Batteriser sleeve is designed to deliver as much current as a battery is able to supply to the device.

It's still in your FAQ Bob!

As noted above: 500mA is about as much current as a battery is able to supply (in practice).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 24, 2015, 12:09:39 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 24, 2015, 07:46:43 am

But assuming you have brand new cells, what happens if your digital camera needs 2 amps to charge the flash capacitor?
Remember, they started claiming that the batteriser was to reduce voltage dips that occur when there's a current spike, from the load, on the battery...

Correct. That's why their whole video thing about the current spikes was a farce. A DC-DC converter, especially an ultra-miniature one with necessarily small output capacitance hasn't got a hope in hell of providing for those high current spike requirements.

Quote

Is exceeding the current limit going to result in the voltage dropping just as much, if not more than not having a butteriser on the cell at all? Especially seeing you have basically zero capacitance after the boost regulator...

Yep.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 24, 2015, 12:11:30 pm

Quote from: PeterL on December 24, 2015, 10:42:35 am

Quote

Are there limitations on devices that can use the Batteriser based on the current consumptions? No, the Batteriser sleeve is designed to deliver as much current as a battery is able to supply to the device.

It's still in your FAQ Bob!

Their story is so full of holes, all the electrons have fallen out.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on December 24, 2015, 12:18:55 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 24, 2015, 12:11:30 pm

Quote from: PeterL on December 24, 2015, 10:42:35 am

Quote

Are there limitations on devices that can use the Batteriser based on the current consumptions? No, the Batteriser sleeve is designed to deliver as much current as a battery is able to supply to the device.

It's still in your FAQ Bob!

Their story is so full of holes, all the electrons have fallen out.

And that's 800% more electrons than were actually in it in the first place!

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 24, 2015, 12:40:04 pm

Well - even if the electrons have fallen out the holes, they still have plenty of 'dopes' creating the junctions.

(To be honest, I feel bad with all this character assassination, but Batteroo keep walking into the line of fire - over and over again!.  I remember Charles Darwin had some comments about this kind of behaviour.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 24, 2015, 12:50:43 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 24, 2015, 11:59:52 am

As noted above: 500mA is about as much current as a battery is able to supply (in practice).

No, it's not. As described in this posting you referenced (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg809012/#msg809012), you can draw 2.2 A from a battery at 0.7 V, even after it was discharged by 200 mAh (this is less than 15% of the capacity according to the post). And still more than an amp when discharged by more than 15%. The post doesn't say how long it can supply this current, but I guess at least for some seconds, maybe longer than a 500 mA version of the Batteriser would survive it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on December 24, 2015, 01:24:29 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 24, 2015, 11:59:52 am

Quote from: PeterL on December 24, 2015, 10:42:35 am

Quote

As you may recall, we initially planned to ship the 500 milli-amp beta version of the Batteriser

No, this is what I recall:

Quote

Are there limitations on devices that can use the Batteriser based on the current consumptions? No, the Batteriser sleeve is designed to deliver as much current as a battery is able to supply to the device.

It's still in your FAQ Bob!

As noted above: 500mA is about as much current as a battery is able to supply (in practice).

Yeah, I do understand all that.
What I wanted to point out is how they speak against themselves with this '500 milli-amp beta' statement.

Anyway this project has failed already big time. They have a product that should appeal to almost every citizen in the world, and from those 7,000,000,000 potential buyers they could only find some 7000 willing to give it a try. VC's will be very disappointed now, and the only thing that can safe them now is a batteriser that actually performs as stated, and so attracts significantly more buyers. And I don't see that happening...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on December 24, 2015, 01:59:29 pm

number of backers has gone down again!  (big surprise)

How does a boost converter behave if current draw exceeds its design limits?  does it shut off? overheat and die? burst into flames?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 24, 2015, 02:05:58 pm

Normally burst into flames, as the internal switch goes to near 100% on time, and if the current limiting in the switch is working it just goes to 90 odd percent and the inductor cooks itself. If the switch goesa to 100% and no limiting then the chip cooks itself.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on December 24, 2015, 02:13:35 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on December 19, 2015, 11:21:37 am

Bob says deliveries in January now. Eternal optimist.

Ah, but January of WHAT YEAR????

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on December 24, 2015, 03:14:34 pm

Quote from: SeanB on December 24, 2015, 02:05:58 pm

Normally burst into flames, as the internal switch goes to near 100% on time, and if the current limiting in the switch is working it just goes to 90 odd percent and the inductor cooks itself. If the switch goesa to 100% and no limiting then the chip cooks itself.

You would hope that Batterieser would have designed thermal protection into their imaginary boost converter. After all, they are promoting it on safety grounds  |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on December 24, 2015, 03:23:31 pm

Hi,

There seems to be a little interest in my post:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg809012/#msg809012 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg809012/#msg809012)

In this post I talk about the maximum power that can be extracted from a partially discharged AA cell. Remember this is power out of the cell, and does not include any conversion losses in the boost converter.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

I am running out of pop-corn. :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on December 24, 2015, 03:34:11 pm

Quite often these crowd funded project show pictures about the progress. Not in this case, although the batteriser people have tried to keep high and loud public profile otherwise. What I have seen are only some rendered photos, some vague tests performed by few magazines (which were not too successful) and faulty technical specifications and claims. Where are the photos of smiling campaign people when getting final prototypes prior launching the actual production, photos of actual pre-production devices, measurement results of pre-production units, photos of "Hey guys, here we are assembling the devices, here are the first 100 units ready to be shipped out". Nothing. This stinks.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 24, 2015, 04:59:00 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on December 24, 2015, 03:34:11 pm

Quite often these crowd funded project show pictures about the progress. Not in this case, although the batteriser people have tried to keep high and loud public profile otherwise. What I have seen are only some rendered photos, some vague tests performed by few magazines (which were not too successful) and faulty technical specifications and claims. Where are the photos of smiling campaign people when getting final prototypes prior launching the actual production, photos of actual pre-production devices, measurement results of pre-production units, photos of "Hey guys, here we are assembling the devices, here are the first 100 units ready to be shipped out". Nothing. This stinks.

Yep. There's not a single photo of anything. No Chinese worker holding a pink battery clip, no trays of Batteriser chips, NOTHING.

My prediction is that this whole thing is fake. It will end in a series of 'accidents' and 'natural disasters' followed by: "We did our best but we ran out of money and can't finish making them, sorry."

There's no way the Batteriser Brothers can actually ship anything, they have too much to lose.  Running out of money is their only face-saving option at this point. :popcorn:


(That landslide last week must have been too good to be true for them... and it just happened to be their factory that was built under that mountain, right?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on December 24, 2015, 05:36:29 pm

Another good one: devaluation of the Yuan.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 24, 2015, 05:49:58 pm

Vapourware factory for sure, built only in an area that is now busy being dug out.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 24, 2015, 06:29:32 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 24, 2015, 04:59:00 pm

(That landslide last week must have been too good to be true for them... and it just happened to be their factory that was built under that mountain, right?)

Right, highly unlikely, they must have really bad luck. Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Shenzhen_landslide) says that the landslide covered an area of ten hectares, that's 0.1 km^2, and 33 buildings where destroyed. The area of Shenzhen is 2050 km^2, so the landslide affected 0.005 % of it (that's 50 ppm). I couldn't find a list of the buildings, would be interesting if there was any factory at all.

Edit: I read their announcement again and it is the same as with their other tricky descriptions: They didn't say that their factory was destroyed by the landslide, which you would assume, but they are using the disaster just as an excuse for the delay. If someone ask them why, they could say everything goes slower in Shenzhen because of the cleanup work etc.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on December 24, 2015, 06:33:48 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 24, 2015, 06:29:32 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 24, 2015, 04:59:00 pm

(That landslide last week must have been too good to be true for them... and it just happened to be their factory that was built under that mountain, right?)

Right, highly unlikely, they must have really bad luck. Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Shenzhen_landslide) says that the landslide covered an area of ten hectares, that's 0.1 km^2, and 33 buildings where destroyed. The area of Shenzhen is 2050 km^2, so the landslide affected 0.005 % of it (that's 50 ppm). I couldn't find a list of the buildings, would be interesting if there was any factory at all.

That's simple, a few Kickstarter I pledged that are still in the production process or near shipping that come from China, and especially the Shenzhen are absolutely unaffected by this landslide, so.. Either they are just liar, or have a very bad luck..

I'm more about one of the two solutions to be honest.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on December 24, 2015, 06:55:58 pm

makes you wonder what their *planned" delay was going to be?  Then like a gift from the gods, a tragedy gives them something actually somewhat verifiable.  Well, whetever their planned excuse was going to be, that will be the next one.

I'll bet 500 quatloos that there will be some sort of shipping "delay" getting the stuff out of china to their "US Warehouse"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 24, 2015, 07:16:01 pm

If they can spin till mid Jan then the virtual close of the entire PRC for new years will be that excuse. My guess is they will either be "experiencing a supply chain slowdown due to the Government cracking down on pollution", "The coating is being delayed due to an external subcontractor being late with delivery", " the pcb supplier has experienced an equipment malfunction".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 24, 2015, 08:20:16 pm

They could go 'all honest' - and say...

"Dear Backers: We have been let down by a trusted member of the Batteroo engineering team, who has been identified - and now left the company (with entitlements).  His motives were ill-formed, and distracted by the hacker/developer community.  We have to blame someone, and this (someone) has let us all down."

"We regret that due to invalid research metrics, and data produced by this team member, Batteroo are unable to proceed with the Batteriser project.   This is a disappointing end to this project which was on track to save the planet, run 'Big Battery' into the ground, and feed starving children across the globe."

TRANSLATED: We have collected enough money, (someone) has resigned from the company, and we're all off to the beach.... and my dog died (after eating the schematics).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on December 24, 2015, 09:11:01 pm

Or

I am sorry my dog ate the Monkey and we are unable to test ...

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on December 24, 2015, 10:54:28 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 24, 2015, 04:59:00 pm

  Running out of money is their only face-saving option at this point.

Batteroo was out of money before the IGG campaign ever got underway.  There simply is not enough money to meet the commitments without diving into someone's pocket. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on December 24, 2015, 11:21:13 pm

"We are currently testing in another galaxy"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxafIhYFOr0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxafIhYFOr0)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 25, 2015, 03:12:02 am

Re: Dave Finch...

Must be another Batteroo Supporter!  :)  ROTFL...

Dave, I think you have another account to delete!  :)  LOL

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 25, 2015, 12:16:07 pm

Quote from: PeterL on December 24, 2015, 01:24:29 pm

Anyway this project has failed already big time. They have a product that should appeal to almost every citizen in the world, and from those 7,000,000,000 potential buyers they could only find some 7000 willing to give it a try. VC's will be very disappointed now

Even more now that they have effectively lost their patents.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 25, 2015, 02:17:38 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 24, 2015, 10:54:28 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 24, 2015, 04:59:00 pm

  Running out of money is their only face-saving option at this point.

Batteroo was out of money before the IGG campaign ever got underway.  There simply is not enough money to meet the commitments without diving into someone's pocket.

Sorry, that should have been in quotes:

"Running out of money" is their only face-saving option at this point.

Yes, it seems unlikely that they're actually manufacturing anything at this point. More likely they're just working on their escape.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 25, 2015, 04:07:37 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 24, 2015, 06:29:32 pm

Right, highly unlikely, they must have really bad luck. Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Shenzhen_landslide) says that the landslide covered an area of ten hectares, that's 0.1 km^2, and 33 buildings where destroyed. The area of Shenzhen is 2050 km^2, so the landslide affected 0.005 % of it (that's 50 ppm). I couldn't find a list of the buildings, would be interesting if there was any factory at all.

If you multiply the odds of all their excuses you'll get a probabilty lower than a jackpot in a lottery.

Quote

Edit: I read their announcement again and it is the same as with their other tricky descriptions: They didn't say that their factory was destroyed by the landslide, which you would assume, but they are using the disaster just as an excuse for the delay. If someone ask them why, they could say everything goes slower in Shenzhen because of the cleanup work etc.

If I would be a backer I'd collect all those tidbits for a class action suit. False claims, misleading reports ...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on December 25, 2015, 04:42:15 pm

Quote from: madires on December 25, 2015, 04:07:37 pm

If I would be a backer I'd collect all those tidbits for a class action suit. False claims, misleading reports ...

You wouldn't need to, we've collected them all here for you :)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on December 26, 2015, 07:46:40 am

+++ Breaking news +++ Breaking news +++ Breaking news +++ Breaking news +++ Breaking news +++ Breaking news +++

The news team was able to get a first impression of the massive landslide in Shenzhen, China.
As of now it is unclear how long it will take to repair all the damages to the infrastucture, but it is estimated that deliveries will be delayed by almost one full year. However Batteroo is working hard to deliver the rewards before Christmas 2016.

(http://images.theage.com.au/2011/01/12/2131122/GOR-420x0.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on December 26, 2015, 07:59:27 am

Yes. they are so predictable...

(http://i.imgur.com/WPnkL0Vs.png) (http://i.imgur.com/WPnkL0V.png)

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on December 26, 2015, 08:55:21 am

Quote from: firewalker on December 26, 2015, 07:59:27 am

Yes. they are so predictable...

(http://i.imgur.com/WPnkL0Vs.png) (http://i.imgur.com/WPnkL0V.png)

Alexander.

I can't read the text in the image.

Quote from: McBryce on December 25, 2015, 04:42:15 pm

Quote from: madires on December 25, 2015, 04:07:37 pm

If I would be a backer I'd collect all those tidbits for a class action suit. False claims, misleading reports ...

You wouldn't need to, we've collected them all here for you :)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jaxbird on December 26, 2015, 09:01:51 am

Quote from: SeanB on December 24, 2015, 07:16:01 pm

If they can spin till mid Jan then the virtual close of the entire PRC for new years will be that excuse. My guess is they will either be "experiencing a supply chain slowdown due to the Government cracking down on pollution", "The coating is being delayed due to an external subcontractor being late with delivery", " the pcb supplier has experienced an equipment malfunction".

\


that is this shit

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Simon on December 26, 2015, 09:05:20 am

isn't there anything legal that can be done about these scammers, or are the terms of the funraising method that you can end up with nothing ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 26, 2015, 09:34:45 am

They are VC, so have some legal fictions they spin. Basically the investors are gambling, though the stuff coming out of Batterpoo is skirting the line between legal advertorial and a pump and dump scheme. If they do go belly up ( better than 90% chance of that) there might be a recourse by the backers, though they did sign many of the rights away in investing in a VC startup, as many do fail.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 26, 2015, 09:35:00 am

Quote from: madires on December 25, 2015, 04:07:37 pm

If I would be a backer I'd collect all those tidbits for a class action suit.

People always talk about class action lawsuits about crowd funded projects.
It's not going to happen for a few tens of bucks item, and few hundred $k funding.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Simon on December 26, 2015, 09:49:39 am

The problem with stuff across countries is where is the legal authority to rule based ? it's probably hard suing someone half way across the world.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 26, 2015, 09:54:44 am

Quote from: Simon on December 26, 2015, 09:49:39 am

The problem with stuff across countries is where is the legal authority to rule based ? it's probably hard suing someone half way across the world.

It is. And it costs huge amounts of money and time to sue someone in any case.
And there is few if any case law rulings on crowd funding campaigns, so no one has any clue about legalities.
Crowd funding sites usully make it quite clear you are not "purchasing" "goods". You are investing in a company in exchange for a promise of a reward that you specified.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Simon on December 26, 2015, 10:06:44 am

but what batteerizer and many others have done amountes to is a boiler room scam and those are taken seriously. what is needed is for that to be seen and for the same rules to apply with maybe the crowd funder being resposible for persuing them and therefor the crowd funder obtaining access to security from the proposers.

I do peer to peer lending. Any losses are mine to bear. But the mediator of the loans does employ a legal team to persue the debts and hold garantors to account, people don't just ditch and run.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 26, 2015, 10:23:22 am

SIMON... sorry, did you mean pursue, or peruse ?!!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 26, 2015, 12:12:39 pm

Quote from: Simon on December 26, 2015, 10:06:44 am

but what batteerizer and many others have done amountes to is a boiler room scam and those are taken seriously. what is needed is for that to be seen and for the same rules to apply with maybe the crowd funder being resposible for persuing them and therefor the crowd funder obtaining access to security from the proposers.

https://nonprofitquarterly.org/2015/07/02/the-feds-take-action-against-crowdfunding-fraud-and-its-about-time/

Backers should report any fraud! Also if there's no chance to get your money back or it's just about a few bucks, make sure to stop scammers in the future!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on December 26, 2015, 03:05:44 pm

Quote from: Chipguy on December 26, 2015, 07:46:40 am

+++ Breaking news +++ Breaking news +++ Breaking news +++ Breaking news +++ Breaking news +++ Breaking news +++

The news team was able to get a first impression of the massive landslide in Shenzhen, China.
As of now it is unclear how long it will take to repair all the damages to the infrastucture, but it is estimated that deliveries will be delayed by almost one full year. However Batteroo is working hard to deliver the rewards before Christmas 2016.

It was already covered. Maybe I'm too sensitive, but that picture you used is kind of  in bad taste to the victims of that disaster.

Granted, Batteroo using it as an excuse is as bad because most likely  they were not affected directly.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on December 26, 2015, 04:16:32 pm

Quote from: Simon on December 26, 2015, 09:05:20 am

isn't there anything legal that can be done about these scammers, or ...

My personal favorite is: Educate the people.
Optional: If the scam ended up being proved: Expose the "organisators" for being scammers, and expose the "victims" for being stupid.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 26, 2015, 04:27:02 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on December 26, 2015, 04:16:32 pm

Quote from: Simon on December 26, 2015, 09:05:20 am

isn't there anything legal that can be done about these scammers, or ...

My personal favorite is: Educate the people.
Optional: If the scam ended up being proved: Expose the "organisators" for being scammers, and expose the "victims" for being stupid.

We must be careful.  Just as they are...

There is little doubt that Batteroo are incompetent, arrogant and 'incredibly' unlucky', but to call them scammers is a grey area... and this seems to be what they are playing.

There are a lot of words that fit better, and none of them are complimentary - but until a formal judgement drops - what they are doing is not illegal.  It has very strong elements of questionable conduct, disrespect, dubious morals and other commercial no-no's... but they aren't in this for the long term business, so none of that matters.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 26, 2015, 06:07:02 pm

Quote from: SL4P on December 26, 2015, 04:27:02 pm

There is little doubt that Batteroo are incompetent, arrogant and 'incredibly' unlucky', but to call them scammers is a grey area... and this seems to be what they are playing.

There are a lot of words that fit better, and none of them are complimentary - but until a formal judgement drops - what they are doing is not illegal.  It has very strong elements of questionable conduct, disrespect, dubious morals and other commercial no-no's... but they aren't in this for the long term business, so none of that matters.

Watch their videos again...it's obvious they never believed Batteriser works as claimed.

The only question is whether they ever intended to manufacture anything. It now seems obvious they didn't.

(...and why would they waste money on manufacturing something that will cause them problems and make them a laughing stock, 100% guaranteed?)

There's hundreds of people out there waiting for Batterisers to arrive so they can test them, measure the efficiency, plot some curves, etc. I think the Batteriser Brothers decided to have the last laugh.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on December 26, 2015, 07:51:21 pm

For the batteriser people:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7b5YZENvjY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7b5YZENvjY)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXE_dh38HjU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXE_dh38HjU)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uemr8xaxcw0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uemr8xaxcw0)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on December 26, 2015, 08:17:50 pm

I wonder if the next  delay will be due to "an act of God"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 26, 2015, 08:21:22 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on December 26, 2015, 08:17:50 pm

I wonder if the next  delay will be due to "an act of God"

Somalian Pirates!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on December 26, 2015, 08:22:28 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 26, 2015, 08:21:22 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on December 26, 2015, 08:17:50 pm

I wonder if the next  delay will be due to "an act of God"

Somalian Pirates!

Cargo Ship sunk by the North Koreans!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on December 26, 2015, 10:03:32 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on December 26, 2015, 08:17:50 pm

I wonder if the next  delay will be due to "an act of God"

Shipment stolen by Big Battery!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on December 26, 2015, 10:13:41 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on December 26, 2015, 10:03:32 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on December 26, 2015, 08:17:50 pm

I wonder if the next  delay will be due to "an act of God"

Shipment stolen by Big Battery!

Stolen By an drop out art student!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on December 26, 2015, 11:37:48 pm

at some point, if they are not actually manufacturing, and they are planning an exit strategy, they are going to point some kinda blame at Dave / EEVBlog

Just wait, they will

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pickle9000 on December 26, 2015, 11:47:31 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on December 26, 2015, 11:37:48 pm

at some point, if they are not actually manufacturing, and they are planning an exit strategy, they are going to point some kinda blame at Dave / EEVBlog

Just wait, they will

They will, but it means they are ineffective designers and manufacturers. Every product has a down side, a great salesman can sell shoes to a guy with no legs.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on December 27, 2015, 12:39:52 am

This whole thing is so funny (unless you are one of the investor). Dave has provided verifiable scientific evidence why this thing can't possibly do what the claim, and their entire rebuttal to date is essentially that Dave is too stupid because he isn't a PhD and thus can't understand their laws of physics defying breakthrough. As pointed out, it would be stupidly simple to prove their side. If they really are making these things, then they absolutely must have a working prototype they could send out for reviews.
 As for scam or not, there really are two choices. Either they are naive and don't understand what they are doing, or they fully understand that the science is against them. Given the high level of education they claim, it sure seems like they should know exactly what they are doing, in which case there's no doubt, it's a deliberate attempt to defraud people with a product that cannot do what is claimed. There's really not much grey area here.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on December 27, 2015, 01:35:45 am

Quote from: rrinker on December 27, 2015, 12:39:52 am

This whole thing is so funny (unless you are one of the investor). Dave has provided verifiable scientific evidence why this thing can't possibly do what the claim, and their entire rebuttal to date is essentially that Dave is too stupid because he isn't a PhD and thus can't understand their laws of physics defying breakthrough. As pointed out, it would be stupidly simple to prove their side. If they really are making these things, then they absolutely must have a working prototype they could send out for reviews.
 As for scam or not, there really are two choices. Either they are naive and don't understand what they are doing, or they fully understand that the science is against them. Given the high level of education they claim, it sure seems like they should know exactly what they are doing, in which case there's no doubt, it's a deliberate attempt to defraud people with a product that cannot do what is claimed. There's really not much grey area here.

I am starting to question whether they have *ever* had even working prototypes.  Sure, we have seen things that look like a batteriser, but they could have been props with no actual circuitry present, a straight through + connector.  The only media test I can find is from Yahoo, and they could not make it work.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 02:01:53 am

Quote from: rrinker on December 27, 2015, 12:39:52 am

This whole thing is so funny (unless you are one of the investor). Dave has provided verifiable scientific evidence why this thing can't possibly do what the claim, and their entire rebuttal to date is essentially that Dave is too stupid because he isn't a PhD and thus can't understand their laws of physics defying breakthrough. As pointed out, it would be stupidly simple to prove their side. If they really are making these things, then they absolutely must have a working prototype they could send out for reviews.

Not only that, but they could publish performance curves and data like they promised and never did.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 02:08:00 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on December 27, 2015, 01:35:45 am

I am starting to question whether they have *ever* had even working prototypes. 

No, this is wrong, several different media people have seen it work in the apple keyboard.
Working prototypes exist.
It's not that hard to get something like this built and working.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on December 27, 2015, 03:27:32 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on December 26, 2015, 11:37:48 pm

at some point, if they are not actually manufacturing, and they are planning an exit strategy, they are going to point some kinda blame at Dave / EEVBlog

Just wait, they will

r

They already are. Dave's battery cutout voltage video begat the whole monkey butt ...err...rebuttal.  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pickle9000 on December 27, 2015, 04:01:13 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 27, 2015, 03:27:32 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on December 26, 2015, 11:37:48 pm

at some point, if they are not actually manufacturing, and they are planning an exit strategy, they are going to point some kinda blame at Dave / EEVBlog

Just wait, they will

r

They already are. Dave's battery cutout voltage video begat the whole monkey butt ...err...rebuttal.  :palm:

Maybe probes was a real monkey dressed up to look like a toy. He gets loose from his cage and kills a couple of the "engineers" and their parents came looking for them (the engineers). The Batterizer group could be hiding the whole thing. Just think how probes the monkey feels being probed every day, the poor thing. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 27, 2015, 04:27:26 am

Quote from: pickle9000 on December 27, 2015, 04:01:13 am

Maybe probes was a real monkey dressed up to look like a toy. He gets loose from his cage and kills a couple of the "engineers" and their parents came looking for them (the engineers). The Batterizer group could be hiding the whole thing. Just think how probes the monkey feels being probed every day, the poor thing.

OMG!  I've figured it out.
Probes the Monkey is in fact Batteriser Bob in disguise...!  All this acrimony and distraction is an effort to strop us from making that connection (excuse the pun), and sticking the probes up his 'donkey' once and for all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 04:43:00 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 27, 2015, 03:27:32 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on December 26, 2015, 11:37:48 pm

at some point, if they are not actually manufacturing, and they are planning an exit strategy, they are going to point some kinda blame at Dave / EEVBlog
Just wait, they will

r
They already are. Dave's battery cutout voltage video begat the whole monkey butt ...err...rebuttal.  :palm:

Of course they won't focus on other bloggers who have busted them either, I'm the poster boy  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 27, 2015, 04:54:12 am

This link may have been posted previously, but I see in the fine detail, that a Trade Mark opposition was lodged & accepted two weeks ago (15 Dec 2015)
https://trademarks.justia.com/865/71/batteriser-86571275.html (https://trademarks.justia.com/865/71/batteriser-86571275.html)

EDIT: Added:
Big Battery are in the court.  Wait for sparks to fly.
http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/2oy0gcdxs/uspto-trademark-trial-and-appeal-board/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/ (http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/2oy0gcdxs/uspto-trademark-trial-and-appeal-board/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/)

Interestingly, they seem to be going after the risk of consumer confusion between ENERGIZER anbd BATTERISER...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pickle9000 on December 27, 2015, 05:25:02 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 04:43:00 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 27, 2015, 03:27:32 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on December 26, 2015, 11:37:48 pm

at some point, if they are not actually manufacturing, and they are planning an exit strategy, they are going to point some kinda blame at Dave / EEVBlog
Just wait, they will

r
They already are. Dave's battery cutout voltage video begat the whole monkey butt ...err...rebuttal.  :palm:

Of course they won't focus on other bloggers who have busted them either, I'm the poster boy  ;D

Dave, if they invite you to their lab to see a test, be careful. Remember what happened to probes (the monkey). Humans already have the optimum number of holes in them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on December 27, 2015, 07:02:28 am

Quote from: SL4P on December 27, 2015, 04:54:12 am

This link may have been posted previously, but I see in the fine detail, that a Trade Mark opposition was lodged & accepted two weeks ago (15 Dec 2015)
https://trademarks.justia.com/865/71/batteriser-86571275.html (https://trademarks.justia.com/865/71/batteriser-86571275.html)

EDIT: Added:
Big Battery are in the court.  Wait for sparks to fly.
http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/2oy0gcdxs/uspto-trademark-trial-and-appeal-board/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/ (http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/2oy0gcdxs/uspto-trademark-trial-and-appeal-board/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/)

Interestingly, they seem to be going after the risk of consumer confusion between ENERGIZER anbd BATTERISER...

I think you discovered the actual natural disaster that has impacted Batteroo. All their tooling and branded inventory - if any exists - is now scrap. They have no money to fight this unless someone had the foresight to buy legal insurance.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on December 27, 2015, 07:35:40 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 27, 2015, 07:02:28 am

Quote from: SL4P on December 27, 2015, 04:54:12 am

This link may have been posted previously, but I see in the fine detail, that a Trade Mark opposition was lodged & accepted two weeks ago (15 Dec 2015)
[...]
Interestingly, they seem to be going after the risk of consumer confusion between ENERGIZER anbd BATTERISER...

I think you discovered the actual natural disaster that has impacted Batteroo. All their tooling and branded inventory - if any exists - is now scrap. They have no money to fight this unless someone had the foresight to buy legal insurance.

I wonder if all this would've been an issue if they had just been crowdfunding this as a project rather than having the ability to order the products from their webstore after the campain has closed. What I mean to say is that there are countless projects that just do a one of run once funded and that's that. No patents and trademarks stuff.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 27, 2015, 07:55:25 am

Quote from: SL4P on December 27, 2015, 04:54:12 am

[nterestingly, they seem to be going after the risk of consumer confusion between ENERGIZER anbd BATTERISER...

So in the end it is Big Battery that's killing them.

(and this gives them a legitimate way to "run out of money"... a completely clean escape route  >:( )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 27, 2015, 08:00:23 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 27, 2015, 07:02:28 am

They have no money to fight this unless someone had the foresight to buy legal insurance.

I would guess that insurance was the first thing they got, that way they are able to use somebody else’s money to do the fighting, andd they probably were pretty sure they would need it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pickle9000 on December 27, 2015, 08:35:49 am

Just think how big battery would be after them if it actually worked (as described)?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on December 27, 2015, 09:02:46 am

Quote from: pickle9000 on December 27, 2015, 08:35:49 am

Just think how big battery would be after them if it actually worked (as described)?

Big battery probably welcomed such device (if it worked) since everything seems to be going the Li-ion way.

Not sure what claim does Energizer have, that monkey looks nothing like a bunny.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 27, 2015, 09:15:53 am

Quote from: miguelvp on December 27, 2015, 09:02:46 am

Not sure what claim does Energizer have, that monkey looks nothing like a bunny.

Look and feel, a furry small stuffed animated animal, that could cause confusion in the target market. Though the sound of the name is more likely to lead to confusion, not helped by them also having used branded cells ( instead of a white or pale blue no name branded sleeve over the demo cells) which could lead the the assumption that this use is sanctioned by the trademark holder.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on December 27, 2015, 09:24:25 am

Quote

....
http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/2oy0gcdxs/uspto-trademark-trial-and-appeal-board/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/ (http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/2oy0gcdxs/uspto-trademark-trial-and-appeal-board/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/)
....

On page 33 of that last document:
"...BATTERISER, Prosecution History, Notice of Pseudo Mark (April 1, 2015) (creating the pseudo mark “BATTERY RISER”)...."

April 1st... there you got it  :-DD
Nice coincidence... going on with  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on December 27, 2015, 09:24:49 am

Energizer takes a page from Dave and goes after their credibility. From the Notice of Opposition:

The Applied-For Marks Are Deceptive Or Alternatively Deceptively Mis-Descriptive.

12. The Applied-For Mark are deceptive because they bestow upon the product
identified by Applied-For Marks an appearance of greater quality or salability than it has in fact.

14. Upon information and belief, the product identified by Applied-For Marks,
however, does not actually raise or increase the stored energy of the battery. Instead, as
indicated in Applicant’s recitation of goods, the identified product merely provides access to
existing stored energy found within the battery, i.e., “sleeve to be used with disposable batteries to extract stored energy and extend battery life.” (Emphasis added).

15. This deception is material because it relates to a character, quality or function of
the identified product and because prospective purchasers are likely to believe that the deception actually describes the product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on December 27, 2015, 09:29:48 am

Quote from: Chipguy on December 27, 2015, 09:24:25 am

On page 33 of that last document:
"...BATTERISER, Prosecution History, Notice of Pseudo Mark (April 1, 2015) (creating the pseudo mark “BATTERY RISER”)...."

This video blogger "syyenergy7" mentions Battery Riser consistently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjWYlC8OcP4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjWYlC8OcP4)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 27, 2015, 09:42:41 am

Another deluded guy, cannot realise there is a difference between voltage and power. For the price of batteriser you can buy a lot of decent rechargeable cells. Saying even if it does not work it is fine. Why does he not go and throw money in the dumpster every day, it is still possible a dumpster diver might get it before it goes to landfill.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 09:48:30 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 27, 2015, 07:02:28 am

Quote from: SL4P on December 27, 2015, 04:54:12 am

This link may have been posted previously, but I see in the fine detail, that a Trade Mark opposition was lodged & accepted two weeks ago (15 Dec 2015)
https://trademarks.justia.com/865/71/batteriser-86571275.html (https://trademarks.justia.com/865/71/batteriser-86571275.html)

EDIT: Added:
Big Battery are in the court.  Wait for sparks to fly.
http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/2oy0gcdxs/uspto-trademark-trial-and-appeal-board/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/ (http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/2oy0gcdxs/uspto-trademark-trial-and-appeal-board/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/)

Interestingly, they seem to be going after the risk of consumer confusion between ENERGIZER anbd BATTERISER...

I think you discovered the actual natural disaster that has impacted Batteroo. All their tooling and branded inventory - if any exists - is now scrap. They have no money to fight this unless someone had the foresight to buy legal insurance.

The Batteriser soap opera never fails to disappoint!  :popcorn:
Yeah, Batteroo and their backers are no match for Energiser. It's looking very grim. Almost certain to lose their patent, and now this Trademark fight.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on December 27, 2015, 09:55:46 am

Quote from: photon on December 27, 2015, 09:24:49 am

Energizer takes a page from Dave and goes after their credibility. From the Notice of Opposition:

The Applied-For Marks Are Deceptive Or Alternatively Deceptively Mis-Descriptive.

12. The Applied-For Mark are deceptive because they bestow upon the product
identified by Applied-For Marks an appearance of greater quality or salability than it has in fact.

14. Upon information and belief, the product identified by Applied-For Marks,
however, does not actually raise or increase the stored energy of the battery. Instead, as
indicated in Applicant’s recitation of goods, the identified product merely provides access to
existing stored energy found within the battery, i.e., “sleeve to be used with disposable batteries to extract stored energy and extend battery life.” (Emphasis added).

15. This deception is material because it relates to a character, quality or function of
the identified product and because prospective purchasers are likely to believe that the deception actually describes the product.

That makes more sense than going after the name, but it was too long to read, nice find.

So essentially they are saying that the device is BS and Batteroo implies that the Energizer batteries are somewhat faulty.

Weird, they  usually used Duracells on their demos, but they also did use Enegizers:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=189808;image)

noob mistake from Batteroo, as someone mentioned before, they should have not used name brands that where easily recognizable.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 27, 2015, 10:07:15 am

Since they're obviously monitoring this forum...
:clap:
Merry Christmas Batteroo!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on December 27, 2015, 10:20:32 am

Quote from: miguelvp on December 27, 2015, 09:55:46 am

So essentially they are saying that the device is BS and Batteroo implies that the Energizer batteries are somewhat faulty.

Energizer does not say that Batteriser is BS. They say the name "Batteriser" is deceptive in that it implies something it does not deliver.

Energizer does not say that Batteroo implies that the Energizer's batteries are faulty. They say that the name "Batteriser" implies that it adds something to an Energizer battery which in fact it does not.

The Batteroo guys, self-deluded smartest guys on the planet, thought they could rub off some Energizer brand recognition with their clever name.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on December 27, 2015, 10:36:11 am

Quote from: rrinker on December 27, 2015, 12:39:52 am

their entire rebuttal to date is essentially that Dave is too stupid because he isn't a PhD and thus can't understand their laws of physics defying breakthrough.

Difference between theoretical science and applied science:

PhD: theoretical battery operated device will stop operating at 1,3V
Dave: such devices are no longer made in this world, all modern devices run to 1,0V and already have a dc-dc converter built in.

That is why in all companies PhD's/sysarchs etc. should work together with the applied science people to keep them from floating away from earth  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on December 27, 2015, 10:37:38 am

If it were "Big Battery" going after them, why do we have rechargeable batteries?
I am using Eneloop NiMH's in loads of devices and since they have a extreme low self discharge you can easily use them in low power devices like clocks.
So if "Big Battery" was after them "Big Battery" should already have destroyed Sanyo and the likes with low self-discharge NiMH batteries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on December 27, 2015, 11:08:31 am

Choosing a name like Batteriser for their product was looking for trouble.
In case Energizer wins the court case, may I suggest a few alternatives:
Battevac, Battecell, Batteloop, Batteready, Battevac, Battony, Battesonic and my favorite, Batterlips.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 27, 2015, 11:20:55 am

Quote from: meeder on December 27, 2015, 10:37:38 am

So if "Big Battery" was after them "Big Battery" should already have destroyed Sanyo and the likes with low self-discharge NiMH batteries.

First, Sanyo is a company which was bought by Panasonic for $4.5 billion. Suing them for something would be very expensive compared to a company which is probably only worth a few million dollars max. But the main point is that Batteriser claims they can fix something that is wrong with the batteries, which is deceptive and could damage the reputation of Big Battery corp, because you can see the battery brand. Battery companies just list the features of their battery, and usually you don't see the brand of the other battery, if they do comparative tests.

I hope Big Battery corp wins the case and then less people buys it, because the Batteriser will cause more problems for customers than it will help them for the 0.1% applications where it is useful. As mentioned before in this thread by others, the Apple keyboard example is very good, because the Mac shows always 100% with the Batteriser, until it suddenly dies. Without the Batteriser you would see early when you have to plan to buy new batteries. When someone gets the Batteriser, would be fun to compare the keyboard with and without it. I bet it works longer without Batteriser, because usually the efficiency of buck converters is not good for low output currents, as you would expect from a keyboard. And even if you put in the Batteriser only after it shows low %, probably it won't last longer. If it would, they would have posted numbers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 11:25:46 am

Quote from: SL4P on December 27, 2015, 04:54:12 am

Interestingly, they seem to be going after the risk of consumer confusion between ENERGIZER anbd BATTERISER...

Perhaps now we know why Batteriser is spelled with a non-american S.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: cavac on December 27, 2015, 11:34:58 am

Quote from: SeanB on December 27, 2015, 09:42:41 am

Another deluded guy, cannot realise there is a difference between voltage and power. For the price of batteriser you can buy a lot of decent rechargeable cells. Saying even if it does not work it is fine. Why does he not go and throw money in the dumpster every day, it is still possible a dumpster diver might get it before it goes to landfill.

I do some rough calculation on the amount of money you can save by NOT buying batteriser and non-rechargable batteries on my blog: https://cavac.at/guest/blog/view/32 (https://cavac.at/guest/blog/view/32).

Basically, you can save somewhere between 600 to 18000 Euros (by reusing your initial investment), compared to the initial investment of just buying enough non-rechargable battery capacity to break even with the batteriser (compared to non-rechargable non-batteriser use)...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 11:39:38 am

Quote from: photon on December 27, 2015, 10:20:32 am

The Batteroo guys, self-deluded smartest guys on the planet, thought they could rub off some Energizer brand recognition with their clever name.

Like it or not, Energizer probably have a reasonable case. And a "reasonable case" in the Trademark worlds means at least a million dollars for Batteroo to defend against it and "win".
Energizer won't back down, their pockets are so big so this trademark suit is chump change, so I think Batteroo are pretty much screwed. They will have to drop the name, or go bankrupt.
That means:
a) all the sleeves they made (which have been made according to them, just waiting on the chip?) will have to be re-done.
b) they will likely have to pay initial legal costs for Energizer?
c) The project will now be even more delayed. Only a fool would go ahead and ship product with this lawsuit hanging over their head, because that would add damages based on units shipped.

Whatever the case, it unfortunately adds massive and "indisputable" proof to back up their absurd claim that "big battery" is trying to shut them down to protect profits because they are scared of their "amazing technology"  ::)
And also their libelous claim that I'm paid by "big battery"  ::)

I do wonder if Energizer had their engineers investigate whether or not their was any proof in Batterisers claims? I recon they did, and the result of course would be that the claims are BS, but they decided to go ahead anyway and trademark sue because Battrisers marketing just pissed them off  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 27, 2015, 11:56:44 am

Quote from: SL4P on December 27, 2015, 10:07:15 am

Since they're obviously monitoring this forum...
:clap:
Merry Christmas Batteroo!

Christmas is the time for giving, so what gives ?, not their product that's for sure.

I sincerely hope that Big Battery does not pursue any legal proceedings for the following reasons :

1. We will most likely never see the product (I suspect this was on the cards either way).
2. They will use it in more bullshit publicity to say that they were put out of business by Big Battery because their product posed a threat.
3. They will release it under a different name and we will have to go through all of this again (or simply change the thread title, all else stays the same).
4. There is bugger all on television and this is both informative and entertaining.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: cavac on December 27, 2015, 12:00:54 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 11:39:38 am

I do wonder if Energizer had their engineers investigate whether or not their was any proof in Batterisers claims? I recon they did, and the result of course would be that the claims are BS, but they decided to go ahead anyway and trademark sue because Battrisers marketing just pissed them off  ;D

I'm pretty sure they did check first. Even if the current court battle is about the trademark, it will also involve both companies' marketing campaigns. The judge will look if the consumer is likely to get confused about the two products.

For example, if Chiquita starts to make pies, the judge would (most likely) assume that their product is so different from the banana pi single board computer that the consumer is unlikely to confuse the two products.

So it might "come up by accident" in court that some of the marketing claims made by Batteroo are false, which might lead to slander charges being added to the case.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 12:15:16 pm

So did anyone predict this turn of events?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 12:23:32 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on December 27, 2015, 11:56:44 am

2. They will use it in more bullshit publicity to say that they were put out of business by Big Battery because their product posed a threat.

I now wonder if the VC's who were sold on the marketing spin, might now buy into a "see, the technology is so amazing it will revolutionise the world, fund this trademark defense and let's crush big battery" line?
It all now likely rests on the VC's. They either fund the defense, or they pull the plug. I doubt the brothers would fund this out of their own pocket, they aren't that silly.
Odds would have to be that with the likely patent failure, and now this huge defense expense against a massive company, the VC's will fold and run.

Odds of any of us actually getting a Batteriser now are an order of magnitude less than what they were last week.
And given that the Ingiegogo backers are technically financial backers of the company, this (and likely Patent failure) is news that Batteroo need to share with them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 27, 2015, 12:40:56 pm

In the trademark opposition document -
See the attached paragraph, and the immediate ~10 following paras...

...and the second let's Batteroo go on holidays for a while before they file no contest, and sink the VC funds.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on December 27, 2015, 12:42:40 pm

Energizer isn't free of the same dillution, it seems:


(http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/batteries.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 27, 2015, 12:43:16 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 12:23:32 pm

And given that the Ingiegogo backers are technically financial backers of the company, this (and likely Patent failure) is news that Batteroo need to share with them.

Next update: "We hired a law firm to defend against big battery corp and lost. One condition was not to sell the Batteriser and because of the legal fees we went bankrupt before we could change the name. Sorry folks, it's all the fault of the big players and their employee Dave Jones, they don't want us to sell our perfect product. But see our new campaign: Magic battery snake oil! Rub your battery with it and it will extend its life by 800%!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 27, 2015, 12:46:29 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 27, 2015, 12:43:16 pm

...But see our new campaign: Magic battery snake oil! Rub your battery with it and it will extend its life by 800%!"

Now if only they could do that for male appendages... oh wait, they have been offering that for years in my email and banner ads!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on December 27, 2015, 12:54:39 pm

They could always settle quickly with Energizer and change the product name fairly cheaply (We never saw large crates of freshly minted sleeves). I predicted patent litigation, but had the 'in house' DC to DC converter in mind at the time, not the sleeve. I still don't believe they created their own IC and don't buy the 500mA output either, never mind anything higher.
The whole enterprise is in shambles and I wouldn't be surprised if SKTA is about to pull the plug on them. The serial entrepreneurs will leave town on a rail, tarred and feathered. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on December 27, 2015, 12:58:22 pm

As a consumer I do not mix Coca-Cola to Pepsi cola. And I do not have any trouble accidentally mixing Energizer to Batteriser either.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 01:00:40 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on December 27, 2015, 12:54:39 pm

They could always settle quickly with Energizer and change the product name fairly cheaply (We never saw large crates of freshly minted sleeves).

That is their only out, if Energizer intend to let them settle and still sell under another name.
But the wheels have already fallen off the billy cart.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 01:03:01 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on December 27, 2015, 12:58:22 pm

As a consumer I do not mix Coca-Cola to Pepsi cola. And I do not have any trouble accidentally mixing Energizer to Batteriser either.

In the trademark/patent lawsuit world, it doesn't matter. The one with the deepest pockets usually wins by attrition.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 27, 2015, 01:24:55 pm

I found myself nodding as I read this:

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 27, 2015, 12:43:16 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 12:23:32 pm

And given that the Ingiegogo backers are technically financial backers of the company, this (and likely Patent failure) is news that Batteroo need to share with them.

Next update: "We hired a law firm to defend against big battery corp and lost. One condition was not to sell the Batteriser and because of the legal fees we went bankrupt before we could change the name. Sorry folks, it's all the fault of the big players and their employee Dave Jones, they don't want us to sell our perfect product.

Quote from: Wytnucls on December 27, 2015, 12:54:39 pm

They could always settle quickly with Energizer and change the product name fairly cheaply

This would be the logical thing to do - presuming they had a real product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on December 27, 2015, 01:33:57 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 01:03:01 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on December 27, 2015, 12:58:22 pm

As a consumer I do not mix Coca-Cola to Pepsi cola. And I do not have any trouble accidentally mixing Energizer to Batteriser either.

In the trademark/patent lawsuit world, it doesn't matter. The one with the deepest pockets usually wins by attrition.

Just look at the time line for this case. This whole procedure will take 16 months. No matter who wins this one, Batteroo already lost this one. IMHO a 16 months wait is something they just cannot afford at the moment.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 01:39:51 pm

Quote from: PeterL on December 27, 2015, 01:33:57 pm

Just look at the time line for this case. This whole procedure will take 16 months. No matter who wins this one, Batteroo already lost this one. IMHO a 16 months wait is something they just cannot afford at the moment.

Does the case legally stop Batteriser shipping potentially infringing units?
Even if it didn't, doing so is near suicidal, it just adds to the infringing cost.
Even is Batteroo (and the VC's) fought this and won. It would actually take years and cost them millions to win it. I doubt Energizer wouldn't see it through till the end. They would have a whole legal team that salivate at the thought of cases like this.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on December 27, 2015, 01:54:51 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on December 27, 2015, 12:54:39 pm

I still don't believe they created their own IC and don't buy the 500mA output either, never mind anything higher.

I don't believe that either.

But just take a look at what their Youtube fan posted:

So without the use of bulky caps or inductors, still a peak current of 4.5 Amp!
And they designed all this in just a few months after realizing their first version wasn't good enough.

If they really had such a design, I would recommend them selling it to NS/TI or LT, and forget about the flimsy sleeves.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 27, 2015, 01:59:56 pm

I just realised that if this thing goes to court they may be required under law to swear on a book not to tell porky pies, that alone might be a challenge.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 27, 2015, 02:09:16 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on December 27, 2015, 01:59:56 pm

I just realised that if this thing goes to court they may be required under law to swear on a book not to tell porky pies, that alone might be a challenge.

Only the chump spokesperson is the one who has to do that, and as anybody knows the spokesperson is generally one who bears a very strong resemblance to Forrest Gump.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on December 27, 2015, 02:17:51 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 12:15:16 pm

So did anyone predict this turn of events?

I think nobody expected "Big Battery" to really care about the device and they probably still wouldn't have if they weren't afraid for their brand name being smudged  being associated with Batterizer by consumers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on December 27, 2015, 02:19:41 pm

Quote from: PeterL on December 27, 2015, 01:54:51 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=189833;image)

They do have a lot of guts to promote their product with medicial / life support devices like "heart monitors" and "emergency equipment"  :-\

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on December 27, 2015, 03:03:19 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 11:39:38 am

a) all the sleeves they made (which have been made according to them, just waiting on the chip?) will have to be re-done.

Naaah they will rename to "Batter" and put a sticker over the last four letters  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on December 27, 2015, 03:14:01 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on December 27, 2015, 03:03:19 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 11:39:38 am

a) all the sleeves they made (which have been made according to them, just waiting on the chip?) will have to be re-done.

Naaah they will rename to "Batter" and put a sticker over the last four letters  :)

Naah, just a sticker "Batteroo" and them can be sent to backers. Unless the sticker machine gets jammed and there will be yet an another delay because of that ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 27, 2015, 03:45:14 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 12:23:32 pm

And given that the Ingiegogo backers are technically financial backers of the company, this (and likely Patent failure) is news that Batteroo need to share with them.

... and not doing so in a timely manner might be an offence. It's also a strong indication for embezzlement.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 27, 2015, 03:56:34 pm

I wonder if the Indigogo contributors are also likely to be liable for more than they paid, as they technically can be considered to be shareholders of the company, and might be required to pay in extra to cover the settlement.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on December 27, 2015, 05:04:02 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 12:15:16 pm

So did anyone predict this turn of events?

I never thought that "Big Battery" would waste their time on something so petty. I'm pretty disappointed that Energizer just granted Bros. Roohparvar such undeserved credibility. Now that the device will not be allowed to fail in the open market, we're going to be listening to this "Big Battery" conspiracy garbage for decades.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on December 27, 2015, 05:07:47 pm

Quote from: SeanB on December 27, 2015, 03:56:34 pm

I wonder if the Indigogo contributors are also likely to be liable for more than they paid, as they technically can be considered to be shareholders of the company, and might be required to pay in extra to cover the settlement.

If Energizer tries that, they are absolutely stupid. That would generate 1000X more ill will in the market than they could ever hope to recover. If Energizer is smart, they will settle for a name change only, with no money changing hands, and be done with it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bitwelder on December 27, 2015, 05:10:00 pm

Quote from: firewalker on December 26, 2015, 07:59:27 am

Yes. they are so predictable...

(http://i.imgur.com/WPnkL0Vs.png) (http://i.imgur.com/WPnkL0V.png)

Alexander.

I see some (involuntary?) irony in Dr. Bob closing his letter with 'Best Wishes'.
As, that's all what you backers will be left with.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 27, 2015, 05:16:24 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 27, 2015, 05:07:47 pm

Quote from: SeanB on December 27, 2015, 03:56:34 pm

I wonder if the Indigogo contributors are also likely to be liable for more than they paid, as they technically can be considered to be shareholders of the company, and might be required to pay in extra to cover the settlement.

If Energizer tries that, they are absolutely stupid. That would generate 1000X more ill will in the market than they could ever hope to recover. If Energizer is smart, they will settle for a name change only, with no money changing hands, and be done with it.

I wonder just how good the separation is between the founders and the company. There is still some liability for them if it folds, they might not get off without losing more than reputation.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on December 27, 2015, 05:28:04 pm

Quote from: SeanB on December 27, 2015, 05:16:24 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 27, 2015, 05:07:47 pm

Quote from: SeanB on December 27, 2015, 03:56:34 pm

I wonder if the Indigogo contributors are also likely to be liable for more than they paid, as they technically can be considered to be shareholders of the company, and might be required to pay in extra to cover the settlement.

If Energizer tries that, they are absolutely stupid. That would generate 1000X more ill will in the market than they could ever hope to recover. If Energizer is smart, they will settle for a name change only, with no money changing hands, and be done with it.

I wonder just how good the separation is between the founders and the company. There is still some liability for them if it folds, they might not get off without losing more than reputation.

In the US, the LLC is a pretty good shield against this type of stuff.  The real risk is to SK Telecom. That is the deep pocket here.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 27, 2015, 06:07:21 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 27, 2015, 05:28:04 pm

Quote from: SeanB on December 27, 2015, 05:16:24 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 27, 2015, 05:07:47 pm

Quote from: SeanB on December 27, 2015, 03:56:34 pm

I wonder if the Indigogo contributors are also likely to be liable for more than they paid, as they technically can be considered to be shareholders of the company, and might be required to pay in extra to cover the settlement.

If Energizer tries that, they are absolutely stupid. That would generate 1000X more ill will in the market than they could ever hope to recover. If Energizer is smart, they will settle for a name change only, with no money changing hands, and be done with it.

I wonder just how good the separation is between the founders and the company. There is still some liability for them if it folds, they might not get off without losing more than reputation.

In the US, the LLC is a pretty good shield against this type of stuff.  The real risk is to SK Telecom. That is the deep pocket here.

Might be, but if they can prove fraud or gross neglect then that will probably fall away and expose them direct.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 27, 2015, 06:28:29 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 12:15:16 pm

So did anyone predict this turn of events?

Nope.

But the Batteriser Brothers must have popped their special reserve bottle of champagne when they received that letter. It's a perfect "out" for them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 27, 2015, 06:32:24 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on December 27, 2015, 03:03:19 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 11:39:38 am

a) all the sleeves they made (which have been made according to them, just waiting on the chip?) will have to be re-done.

Naaah they will rename to "Batter" and put a sticker over the last four letters  :)

Wonder if that's why their C-cell version had wonky lettering?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186490)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on December 27, 2015, 06:38:20 pm

Stupendously stupid move from Energizer. They are going to spoil all the fun.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ErikTheNorwegian on December 27, 2015, 07:11:22 pm

Quote from: firewalker on December 27, 2015, 06:38:20 pm

Stupendously stupid move from Energizer. They are going to spoil all the fun.

Alexander.

Yes, i bought a solid supply of popcorn that i will burn in with if they collaps now...

Erik

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on December 27, 2015, 07:23:13 pm

I didn't had the time to read through. The problem is having the "izer" on a battery related product? I could understand it if they where using something like "DarkEnergizer". Batterizer seems totally legit to me (as a name).

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on December 27, 2015, 07:32:03 pm

Rename the product DurexCell. It's a sleeve over a stick anyway. What could possibly go wrong.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on December 27, 2015, 07:40:46 pm

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on December 27, 2015, 07:32:03 pm

Rename the product DurexCell. It's a sleeve over a stick anyway. What could possibly go wrong.

Keep one in your wallet and you are then Ever Ready !

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on December 27, 2015, 08:49:41 pm

Quote from: firewalker on December 27, 2015, 07:23:13 pm

I didn't had the time to read through. The problem is having the "izer" on a battery related product? I could understand it if they where using something like "DarkEnergizer". Batterizer seems totally legit to me (as a name).

Alexander.

I agree, to me it is quite far fetched to sue a company based on the izer/iser part of the name.

Title: The Batteriser Saga (continues?)
Post by: expertmax on December 27, 2015, 08:56:56 pm

Hi fellow eevblog forum users!

I'm very sorry to start another thread about the Batteriser but it seems like the saga won't stop since now they updated their indiegogo page with a delay in shipment due to changes in the hardware and a landslide in Shen Zhen (if you believe that story).

The hardware changes

Quote

With each passing day,  we are getting closer and closer to shipping your Batterisers. As you may recall, we initially planned to ship the 500 milli-amp beta version of the Batteriser; however, we made a strategic decision to deliver Batterisers with a  new IC (Integrated circuit) capable of driving 1300 milli-amps of steady state current. We did this because the new version will make Batteriser more compatible with a wider range of devices, and we want to give our backers the absolute best final product that we believe they deserve. Unfortunately, in the construction of the updated Batteriser IC, we encountered unexpected technical fabrication process related issues which caused us to miss our estimated November shipping date. 

Article found on https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/updates (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/updates)

Personally I don't see how changing the chip from 500 mA to 1.3 A will increase product compatibility but it seems like the Batteroo folks are trying to delay their shipping date, there's a reason why and I'll get to that in a second.

Quote

We are now thrilled to announce that we have identified and resolved our fab process issues, and  have conducted testing of the new IC, with great results. The Batteriser final assembly is underway and packaging is nearly complete.  Unfortunately, due to a tragic heavy landslide in Shenzhen, China  this week,  we are now facing additional slight delays.

OK fair enough, a landslide prevents the shipment of the product. But I investigated further and I found that the landslide was actually in a landfill zone and was about 400 meters wide. The landslide happened in a rural area of Shen Zhen and there is no company near the landslide for at least 2km. So I call this BULLS*IT.

Delays means more money in

Of course this is all so obvious, they are fighting with time and excuses to delay the release of their product. Why? Because they are still taking orders which means they are still taking money away from people. Yes one day they will have to ship their real product but it will not work as advertised and this is when their success will start to slope downwards.

If you plan to ship a product, why would you radically change your hardware if you know you will screw up your promised shipment date? They promised end-november... well we are nearing 2016 and no Batteriser in sight.

What will happen next?

Now my big question was: what will happen to the poeple on indiegogo who funded the development of the Batteriser? Do they have some sort of insurance if no product shows up? What about if the Batteriser does not work as designed/promised/advertised? Will they be able to get a refund?

One thing is for sure, Batteroo will run away with the money. After the batteriser, you will never see the name Roohparvar again and with a good reason: Dave pretty much ruined the last drop of credibility they had and that's a good thing, we don't need these kind of products on our market.

Now, what are your thoughts about this?

Let's hope people on indiegogo will have a refund if necessary and that Batteroo hits a brick wall  |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Simon on December 27, 2015, 09:08:31 pm

Quote from: SL4P on December 26, 2015, 04:27:02 pm

We must be careful.  Just as they are...

There is little doubt that Batteroo are incompetent, arrogant and 'incredibly' unlucky', but to call them scammers is a grey area... and this seems to be what they are playing.

There are a lot of words that fit better, and none of them are complimentary - but until a formal judgement drops - what they are doing is not illegal.  It has very strong elements of questionable conduct, disrespect, dubious morals and other commercial no-no's... but they aren't in this for the long term business, so none of that matters.

they are scammers, even if unintentionally, the law does not make allowances for ignorance. I could screw up plenty of things and just say "well what do you know but I didn't expect that to happen", not many people would take me seriously if i did though, bun instead I am always acutely aware of where I may lack information and training and I learn what I need to know or warn those that matter that this is bigger and needs looking into.

And don't tell me that PC world publishing articles about breakin's at batteroo to steal this highly secret and lucrative "technology" (yea boost converters) was bot orchestrated by them..... And just look at the claims they make, they can't even get basic math right. They are scammers, I'd happily see them nailed to the wall and shot for the useless low lifes they are that have no purpose in our society....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pickle9000 on December 27, 2015, 09:13:43 pm

Quote from: meeder on December 27, 2015, 08:49:41 pm

Quote from: firewalker on December 27, 2015, 07:23:13 pm

I didn't had the time to read through. The problem is having the "izer" on a battery related product? I could understand it if they where using something like "DarkEnergizer". Batterizer seems totally legit to me (as a name).

Alexander.

I agree, to me it is quite far fetched to sue a company based on the izer/iser part of the name.

The "keep clear" of my name is important to a company it strengthens the brand . This may not even be related to the Batteroo's but to others thinking of names now or in the future. Be careful or we will see you in court.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on December 27, 2015, 09:16:35 pm

Quote from: meeder on December 27, 2015, 08:49:41 pm

Quote from: firewalker on December 27, 2015, 07:23:13 pm

I didn't had the time to read through. The problem is having the "izer" on a battery related product? I could understand it if they where using something like "DarkEnergizer". Batterizer seems totally legit to me (as a name).

Alexander.

I agree, to me it is quite far fetched to sue a company based on the izer/iser part of the name.

I agree, but isn't that what US civil (sic) lawyers are famous for?

Certainly looks suspiciously like the IP version of speculative ambulance chasing and money for old rope for the silks.

Still, another twist the the story.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on December 27, 2015, 09:47:25 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 27, 2015, 05:04:02 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 12:15:16 pm

So did anyone predict this turn of events?

I never thought that "Big Battery" would waste their time on something so petty. I'm pretty disappointed that Energizer just granted Bros. Roohparvar such undeserved credibility. Now that the device will not be allowed to fail in the open market, we're going to be listening to this "Big Battery" conspiracy garbage for decades.

Absolutely, it just plays into the hands of the conspiracy theorists. Let it run, let it show for itself what a steaming pile it is, and have done. By trying to shut it down, it demonstrates a concern that it might actually work and have an impact on battery sales. Lawyers, please just shut the ---- up for once.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on December 27, 2015, 09:48:33 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 27, 2015, 05:04:02 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 12:15:16 pm

So did anyone predict this turn of events?

I never thought that "Big Battery" would waste their time on something so petty. I'm pretty disappointed that Energizer just granted Bros. Roohparvar such undeserved credibility. Now that the device will not be allowed to fail in the open market, we're going to be listening to this "Big Battery" conspiracy garbage for decades.

Quote from: photon on September 05, 2015, 09:03:43 pm

I don't believe that a VC doesn't care about whether a product works. There are, after all, financial consequences to fraud, and if Batteriser is not a fraud but a scam, there are consequences to a VC's reputation which again leads to financial consequences. What is fascinating about Batteriser is that they have reputable EE management and a reputable VC who seem to have the unmitigated gall to believe that they can get away with this. To me it seems like suicide on their part.

Pass the hemlock.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on December 27, 2015, 10:11:39 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 12:15:16 pm

So did anyone predict this turn of events?

Yes, they did themselves, when they said that "Big battery would go after them" :D

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 27, 2015, 10:13:52 pm

Quote from: meeder on December 27, 2015, 08:49:41 pm

Quote from: firewalker on December 27, 2015, 07:23:13 pm

I didn't had the time to read through. The problem is having the "izer" on a battery related product? I could understand it if they where using something like "DarkEnergizer". Batterizer seems totally legit to me (as a name).

I agree, to me it is quite far fetched to sue a company based on the izer/iser part of the name.

Me too, but the American legal system isn't for mortals to understand.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 27, 2015, 10:15:26 pm

Quote from: SL4P on December 26, 2015, 04:27:02 pm

We must be careful.  Just as they are...

There is little doubt that Batteroo are incompetent, arrogant and 'incredibly' unlucky', but to call them scammers is a grey area...

No it isn't. Nobody at Batteroo believes their own claims.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on December 27, 2015, 10:22:04 pm

Quote from: McBryce on December 27, 2015, 10:11:39 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 12:15:16 pm

So did anyone predict this turn of events?

Yes, they did themselves, when they said that "Big battery would go after them" :D

McBryce.

Well...there may have been a series of cease and decist nastygrams that Batteroo had been receiving for some time. I doubt that the filing with the USPTO was the first communication between the two. This may be a good explanation for the Queen's English spelling -iser instead of the American -izer.

As for the missing portions of the logo on the sheet metal, that's what you get when you try to convert a laser cut prototype into hard tooling without accounting for the weakness of the teeny tiny pieces of metal that will have to punch the holes in stainless steel. While the clip is not thick, stainless is notoriously difficult to work with.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 27, 2015, 10:38:38 pm

Just an ignorant question from me...

The IGG campaign was oversubscribed and closed. all good.
Batteriser then moved pre-order public sales to their own website before any IGG product has shipped or validated...

Is that illegal in any way?  It seems very opportunistic  and disingenuous from where I'm sitting.
They're taking trade in the open market for a crowd funded product that hasn't been proven or delivered in any situation yet !

At the very least that would suggest they're exposing themselves to litigation, as engaging in public trade is quite different from 'informed' backers of a development / prototype product...?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 27, 2015, 10:48:36 pm

Quote from: Simon on December 27, 2015, 09:08:31 pm

they are scammers, even if unintentionally

Nope. There's nothing unintentional about it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 11:02:50 pm

Quote from: jippie on December 27, 2015, 02:17:51 pm

I think nobody expected "Big Battery" to really care about the device and they probably still wouldn't have if they weren't afraid for their brand name being smudged  being associated with Batterizer by consumers.

That's probably the thing.
They have likely gotten engineering to evaluate it, and of course they would come back saying the claims are a load of BS as has everyone else in the industry.
Then they probably decided that because it sounds similar they don't want any chance of being associated with it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 11:07:11 pm

Quote from: SeanB on December 27, 2015, 03:56:34 pm

I wonder if the Indigogo contributors are also likely to be liable for more than they paid, as they technically can be considered to be shareholders of the company, and might be required to pay in extra to cover the settlement.

It doesn't work like that. There is no legal document that links backers to ownership (and hence liability) in the company.
Effectively the backers are donating money to the company for a promise of something in return, which is not ownership in the company.
There are crowd funding sites that do that (uBeam did it recently), but Indiegogo and Kickstarter et.al are not one of them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 11:10:54 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 27, 2015, 05:04:02 pm

I never thought that "Big Battery" would waste their time on something so petty. I'm pretty disappointed that Energizer just granted Bros. Roohparvar such undeserved credibility. Now that the device will not be allowed to fail in the open market, we're going to be listening to this "Big Battery" conspiracy garbage for decades.

That is the most likely unfortunate consequence of this event.
The only way to avoid that is if Bateroo quickly change the name, settle the lawsuit, and then continue to deliver as promised. But it doesn't sound likely.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 11:13:59 pm

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on December 27, 2015, 07:32:03 pm

Rename the product DurexCell. It's a sleeve over a stick anyway.

 :clap:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CrashO on December 27, 2015, 11:22:36 pm

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on December 27, 2015, 07:32:03 pm

Rename the product DurexCell. It's a sleeve over a stick anyway. What could possibly go wrong.

With the level of safety I expect batteriser will deliver. Durex might feel it inflicts on their proper safety rating and staring suing, just like energizer...  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 27, 2015, 11:28:10 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 11:13:59 pm

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on December 27, 2015, 07:32:03 pm

Rename the product DurexCell. It's a sleeve over a stick anyway.

 :clap:

Isn't "Durex" a brand of adhesive tape in Austria?  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on December 28, 2015, 01:37:27 am

Quote from: miguelvp on December 27, 2015, 09:02:46 am

Not sure what claim does Energizer have, that monkey looks nothing like a bunny.

I do not think the monkey was a coincidence. Really, cute animal banging cymbals, like the bunny bangs the drum! Making a monkey out of the Energizer marketing brand. The chutzpah of these guys is as big as their delusion.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 28, 2015, 10:50:30 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 11:02:50 pm

Quote from: jippie on December 27, 2015, 02:17:51 pm

I think nobody expected "Big Battery" to really care about the device and they probably still wouldn't have if they weren't afraid for their brand name being smudged  being associated with Batterizer by consumers.

That's probably the thing.
They have likely gotten engineering to evaluate it, and of course they would come back saying the claims are a load of BS as has everyone else in the industry.
Then they probably decided that because it sounds similar they don't want any chance of being associated with it.

A big +1

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 28, 2015, 02:25:58 pm

How long can Batteriser withhold this information from the IGG backers?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on December 28, 2015, 02:32:09 pm

Quote from: quad on December 28, 2015, 02:25:58 pm

How long can Batteriser withhold this information from the IGG backers?

no idea. But it would be pretty amusing if anyone here who is a backer (I know some of you are) posted some links to the dispute.  Interestings to see how long the comments stays up

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on December 28, 2015, 02:53:37 pm

Hi,

There was this press release:

SAN JOSE, Calif., Sept. 17, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- Batteroo Inc. today announced the expansion of its Advisory Board with the addition of former Eveready Senior Technology Fellow Dr. George Blomgren...



Eveready is part of Energizer. You would have thought that Dr. Blomgren would have known about Energizer's practice of brand protection and IP litigation?

If you missed the IGG campaign you can still pre-order on Batteriser.com They are still showing a ship date of December 31st 2015. It will be interesting to see how long it takes before this is changed.


In summary we have:

1) A device that would need to violate the maximum power theorem to get the power of a partially depleted AA battery.

We also videos that show that the claims about the increase in battery life in the Garmin GPS are not true

2) We have seen no photos of a pre-production model. If they are planning on shipping Dec 31st, there must be production devices somewhere.

3) A patent application that looks like it will not be granted.

4) A trademark dispute with 'Big Battery'

5) Warren Flick, former president of Kmart, and Sammy Saloum former VP with Radio Shack. I assume that these guys were added to the board to attempt to get a retail product placement. I am not sure if Warren is still on the board.

6) The product of this exercise from the beginning, was not to sell Batterisers, but to sell the company...

7) and https://www.facebook.com/Batteriser (https://www.facebook.com/Batteriser) which seems somewhat disconnected from Batteriser.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 28, 2015, 03:17:35 pm

Quote from: quad on December 28, 2015, 02:25:58 pm

How long can Batteriser withhold this information from the IGG backers?

Forever.

IGG backers aren't shareholders, I doubt they have any legal rights whatsoever. They took a bet, that's all.

Batteriser will probably use this as part of their "out"; Big Battery killing the Batteriser - it's perfect for them!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on December 28, 2015, 04:04:27 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 28, 2015, 03:17:35 pm

Batteriser will probably use this as part of their "out"; Big Battery killing the Batteriser - it's perfect for them!

What if Batteroo changes the Batteriser to something else like Batteroo. Then there won't be any reason not to ship the devices. If that is the case, then using the Big Battery as an excuse will be invalid.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ErikTheNorwegian on December 28, 2015, 04:31:23 pm

Dr. George E. Blomgren
Chief Scientist
Imara Corporation
Menlo Park , California 94025
United States
Revenue:    $5 mil. - $10 mil.
$7,000,000
Employees: 20 - 50
Industry:  Energy, Utilities & Waste Treatment , Batteries, Power Storage Equipment & Generators , Electronics ,  More
SIC Codes:  3691
NAICS Codes:  335911
Products and Services: high-performance next-generation lithium-ion batteries
Company Description: A: Imara employs patented materials science to design and manufacture high-power, long-runtime, extended cycle-life lithium-ion battery cells and packs. Imara batteries are designed primarily for high-power applications including power tools, outdoor power equipment, and vehicles.


More at. http://www.zoominfo.com/s/#!search/profile/company?companyId=351418580&targetid=profile
 (http://www.zoominfo.com/s/#!search/profile/company?companyId=351418580&targetid=profile)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ErikTheNorwegian on December 28, 2015, 04:40:01 pm

George Blomgren, Chief Scientist, Lion Cells Dr.  George  E.  Blomgren evolved from a theoretical chemist into a battery  expert,  first by earning  a B.S. in chemistry from Northwestern University in 1952 and a Ph.D.  in physical chemistry from  the University of Washington  in 1956. After a post-doc at Columbia University,  he  began a  41  -year  career  with  Union Carbide Corp.  which  evolved into the Eveready Battery Co.   His early work  with  UCC  involved statistical mechanical theories of liquids,  electrolyte solutions,  and molten salts.  This led to a group leader  position in the Battery Products Division in 1963 with  a focus on the  then-new lithium batteries.  His work  on electrolytes prepared the way in  1971  to filing  the first patent  on lithium liquid cathode batteries in which the liquid (e.g., thionyl chloride) serves as both  the solvent for  the electrolyte salt and the active  cathode material. This dual  role  allows very  high  energy to be packed in the container,  thus forming  the highest energy primary battery in use  today.  His work  also led to the lithium-ion disulfide battery,  which  the company developed into  a commercial product,  first as  a button cell and then as an  AA  and AAA cell.  His reward was the highest technical position  at  Eveready - Senior Technology Fellow. After retirement  he  started a  new  career  consulting  with companies around  the world on battery technology and  applications.  He also has presented invited  papers at  many  meetings in  the  U.S., Europe, and Asia  to the delight of his wife Gerry, who is always ready to pack up and  go with him.  George  was Associate Editor  of the Journal of the Electrochemical Society,  Chair  of the  ECS Battery Division,  and adjunct professor  at Carnegie Mellon universities.   He continues as adjunct professor  at Case Western Reserve University in the Department of Chemical Engineering.   With  the formation of the new company "Lion Cells, Inc.", George became a founder and the Chief Scientist in 2006.

From. https://www.google.no/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://web.mit.edu/dsadoway/www/Participant%2520List%2520and%2520Bios.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjHqfuW_P7JAhWEnnIKHcX1AWEQFgggMAI&usg=AFQjCNEpPzp2TGfSsc0A47twHmggx2qr4A&sig2=hb_PfytrtqQnRKMvfCb5vg (https://www.google.no/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://web.mit.edu/dsadoway/www/Participant%2520List%2520and%2520Bios.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjHqfuW_P7JAhWEnnIKHcX1AWEQFgggMAI&usg=AFQjCNEpPzp2TGfSsc0A47twHmggx2qr4A&sig2=hb_PfytrtqQnRKMvfCb5vg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 28, 2015, 05:06:28 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on December 28, 2015, 04:04:27 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 28, 2015, 03:17:35 pm

Batteriser will probably use this as part of their "out"; Big Battery killing the Batteriser - it's perfect for them!

What if Batteroo changes the Batteriser to something else like Batteroo. Then there won't be any reason not to ship the devices. If that is the case, then using the Big Battery as an excuse will be invalid.

Why on earth would they want to ship anything?  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on December 28, 2015, 05:38:44 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 28, 2015, 05:06:28 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on December 28, 2015, 04:04:27 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 28, 2015, 03:17:35 pm

Batteriser will probably use this as part of their "out"; Big Battery killing the Batteriser - it's perfect for them!

What if Batteroo changes the Batteriser to something else like Batteroo. Then there won't be any reason not to ship the devices. If that is the case, then using the Big Battery as an excuse will be invalid.

Why on earth would they want to ship anything?  :-//

Indeed. My comment was that they cannot use the Big Battery as an excuse not to ship the devices. They have to come up with something else as an excuse, something like the dog ate the schematics or the cat peed into the laptop.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 28, 2015, 05:52:58 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on December 28, 2015, 05:38:44 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 28, 2015, 05:06:28 pm

Why on earth would they want to ship anything?  :-//

Indeed. My comment was that they cannot use the Big Battery as an excuse not to ship the devices.

Sure they can.  Just watch them do it over the next few weeks...

Quote from: Batteroo

"We were just loading the last pallet of Batterisers on the truck ready for shipping when this awful letter arrived. Unfortunately we can't ship the Batterisers as-is, and there's no money left to make another batch.

We're completely gutted at not being able to ship you your Batterisers but there's nothing we can do. We've been fighting off Big Battery since day one but they finally caught up with us.

Sorry, Bob R."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on December 28, 2015, 08:56:08 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 27, 2015, 11:28:10 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 11:13:59 pm

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on December 27, 2015, 07:32:03 pm

Rename the product DurexCell. It's a sleeve over a stick anyway.

 :clap:

Isn't "Durex" a brand of adhesive tape in Austria?  :-//

No, thats Tixo.

Durex have the same usage in Austria like in the rest of the world ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: grumpydoc on December 28, 2015, 09:01:20 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 27, 2015, 11:28:10 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 11:13:59 pm

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on December 27, 2015, 07:32:03 pm

Rename the product DurexCell. It's a sleeve over a stick anyway.

 :clap:

Isn't "Durex" a brand of adhesive tape in Austria?  :-//

ITYM Australia

Apparently it was, but is no longer. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Durex (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Durex)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 28, 2015, 09:52:40 pm

Blomgren  may have some chops in battery chemistry, but that doesn't mean anything in the Batteriser scheme of things - Batteroo don't make batteries, and have no means of changing the chemistry of a battery with a Batteriser attached....  Energiser, Duracell and others know how batteries work, and it doesn't have anything to do with boost converters.  He's an old mate, being called in to 'legitimise' Bob's claims for the Batteriser.

Where there's smoke, there's usually a heat source - and it could be a Batteriser!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on December 28, 2015, 10:24:17 pm

The constant shuffling of the "experts" is all one needs to know that the pandering to unwitting / half-wit investors continues unabated. The actual science is irrelevant as long as all the suits around the table smile and nod at the appropriate intervals in the PowerPoint presentation. How so few players can both do that and deliver four new products on time ...

... Oh yeah, that's right. They aren't.  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 29, 2015, 03:24:56 am

Quote from: SL4P on December 28, 2015, 09:52:40 pm

Blomgren  may have some chops in battery chemistry, but that doesn't mean anything in the Batteriser scheme of things - Batteroo don't make batteries, and have no means of changing the chemistry of a battery with a Batteriser attached....  Energiser, Duracell and others know how batteries work, and it doesn't have anything to do with boost converters.

I disagree.  One of the chief arguments against the Batteriser stems from the depleted chemistry not being able to deliver the necessary power.  Bringing in someone who has expertise in that area will allow them to prostitute themselves attest to the capability of the chemistry.  Sure it's BS, but the objective for any scam is to obfuscate the truth to as many suckers as possible.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on December 29, 2015, 02:01:16 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 29, 2015, 03:24:56 am

Quote from: SL4P on December 28, 2015, 09:52:40 pm

Blomgren  may have some chops in battery chemistry, but that doesn't mean anything in the Batteriser scheme of things - Batteroo don't make batteries, and have no means of changing the chemistry of a battery with a Batteriser attached....  Energiser, Duracell and others know how batteries work, and it doesn't have anything to do with boost converters.

I disagree.  One of the chief arguments against the Batteriser stems from the depleted chemistry not being able to deliver the necessary power.  Bringing in someone who has expertise in that area will allow them to prostitute themselves attest to the capability of the chemistry.  Sure it's BS, but the objective for any scam is to obfuscate the truth to as many suckers as possible.

OTOH, if they ever shipped anything they would have no excuse for the performance to suck with discharged cells since they have a battery expert on board.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JoeO on December 29, 2015, 03:06:31 pm

Quote from: SL4P on December 27, 2015, 04:54:12 am

This link may have been posted previously, but I see in the fine detail, that a Trade Mark opposition was lodged & accepted two weeks ago (15 Dec 2015)
https://trademarks.justia.com/865/71/batteriser-86571275.html (https://trademarks.justia.com/865/71/batteriser-86571275.html)

EDIT: Added:
Big Battery are in the court.  Wait for sparks to fly.
http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/2oy0gcdxs/uspto-trademark-trial-and-appeal-board/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/ (http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/2oy0gcdxs/uspto-trademark-trial-and-appeal-board/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/)

Interestingly, they seem to be going after the risk of consumer confusion between ENERGIZER anbd BATTERISER...

To the outside world this looks like Big Battery is going after Batteroo for extending the useful life of batteries when in fact they are going after the trademark portion.

This can give them an out, "Big Battery took us out".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on December 29, 2015, 09:19:55 pm

Quote from: Batteroo

"We were just loading the last pallet of Batterisers on the truck ready for shipping when this awful letter arrived. Unfortunately we can't ship the Batterisers as-is, and there's no money left to make another batch.

We're completely gutted at not being able to ship you your Batterisers but there's nothing we can do. We've been fighting off Big Battery since day one but they finally caught up with us.

Sorry, Bob R."

If they've been "fighting off big battery since day one"... why did they continue to make such ludacris claims all this time? I think we all see through Roohparvar's lies by now. There probably wasn't any pallet of Batterisers either.

Did they stop part-way through loading the truck when they decided to open their mail? I think not.

EDIT:

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 29, 2015, 11:40:00 pm

That quote was a facetious invention of Fungus. It's not real.

Amended post as per above.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 29, 2015, 09:35:48 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on December 29, 2015, 09:19:55 pm

If they've been "fighting off big battery since day one"... why did they continue to make such ludacris claims all this time?

Because they're after venture capital.

As much money as possible.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on December 29, 2015, 11:20:51 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 29, 2015, 09:35:48 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on December 29, 2015, 09:19:55 pm

If they've been "fighting off big battery since day one"... why did they continue to make such ludacris claims all this time?

Because they're after venture capital.

As much money as possible.

But the astonishing thing is that it worked: until the likes of uBeam and Batteriser I at least thought that VCs actually would attempt and take note of any reasonable due diligence. Right now, their attitude to due diligence is pretty much the same as disgraced Fred the Shred had at the Royal Bank Of Scotland when he just bought anything: now that bank is essentially nationalised as it's majority owned by uk.gov as a result of his actions and almost complete lack of attention to due diligence in lieu of greed. Although at different scales in monetary terms, the parallels are quite disturbing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on December 29, 2015, 11:40:00 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on December 29, 2015, 09:19:55 pm

Quote from: Batteroo

"We were just loading the last pallet of Batterisers on the truck ready for shipping when this awful letter arrived. Unfortunately we can't ship the Batterisers as-is, and there's no money left to make another batch.

We're completely gutted at not being able to ship you your Batterisers but there's nothing we can do. We've been fighting off Big Battery since day one but they finally caught up with us.

Sorry, Bob R."

If they've been "fighting off big battery since day one"... why did they continue to make such ludacris claims all this time? I think we all see through Roohparvar's lies by now. There probably wasn't any pallet of Batterisers either.

Did they stop part-way through loading the truck when they decided to open their mail? I think not.

That quote was a facetious invention of Fungus. It's not real.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on December 29, 2015, 11:46:55 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 29, 2015, 11:40:00 pm

That quote was a facetious invention of Fungus. It's not real.

Ahh... it sounded very Batteriser-like though! I've amended my post.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on December 30, 2015, 12:52:03 am

Hi group,

Remember back around reply #1953 a San Jose State University professor (Physics and Astronomy) called Kiumars Parvin was talking up the Batteriser.

Well it turns out the attorney representing Batteroo in the trademark dispute with Energizer happens to be Pardees Parvin.

A coincidence, may be, but www.Whitepages.com (http://www.Whitepages.com) has a Kiumars Parvin and a Pardees Parvin at the same address.

I suspect that they might just be related.....

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 30, 2015, 01:19:33 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 29, 2015, 11:40:00 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on December 29, 2015, 09:19:55 pm

Quote from: Batteroo

"We were just loading the last pallet of Batterisers on the truck ready for shipping when this awful letter arrived. Unfortunately we can't ship the Batterisers as-is, and there's no money left to make another batch.

We're completely gutted at not being able to ship you your Batterisers but there's nothing we can do. We've been fighting off Big Battery since day one but they finally caught up with us.

Sorry, Bob R."

If they've been "fighting off big battery since day one"... why did they continue to make such ludacris claims all this time? I think we all see through Roohparvar's lies by now. There probably wasn't any pallet of Batterisers either.

Did they stop part-way through loading the truck when they decided to open their mail? I think not.

That quote was a facetious invention of Fungus. It's not real.

 :-DD :-DD :-DD

:popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on December 30, 2015, 05:12:55 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on December 30, 2015, 12:52:03 am

Hi group,

Remember back around reply #1953 a San Jose State University professor (Physics and Astronomy) called Kiumars Parvin was talking up the Batteriser.

Well it turns out the attorney representing Batteroo in the trademark dispute with Energizer happens to be Pardees Parvin.

A coincidence, may be, but www.Whitepages.com (http://www.Whitepages.com) has a Kiumars Parvin and a Pardees Parvin at the same address.

I suspect that they might just be related.....

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Their defense doesn't look too good:

Pardees Parvin - #291291

http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Member/Detail/291291 (http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Member/Detail/291291)

Current Status:  Active
This member is active and may practice law in California.

9/8/2015 Active
7/1/2015 Suspended, failed to pay Bar membr. fees: Not Eligible To Practice Law
10/25/2013 Admitted to The State Bar of California

 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 30, 2015, 06:34:26 am

Quote from: Kalvin on December 30, 2015, 05:12:55 am

Their defense doesn't look too good

Well, it's not as if they aim to win, is it?  Best outcome is for a deal to be made.

But who's betting any details of such a deal will be "confidential" - even if it's just a name change.  Then they can spin any yarn they like.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on December 30, 2015, 07:25:25 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on December 30, 2015, 12:52:03 am

[...]
Remember back around reply #1953 a San Jose State University professor (Physics and Astronomy) called Kiumars Parvin was talking up the Batteriser.
[...]

I think this is the first occurrence of the name in this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg750496/#msg750496 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg750496/#msg750496)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on December 30, 2015, 08:14:52 am

Quote from: Kalvin on December 30, 2015, 05:12:55 am

Their defense doesn't look too good:

Pardees Parvin - #291291

http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Member/Detail/291291 (http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Member/Detail/291291)

Current Status:  Active
This member is active and may practice law in California.

9/8/2015 Active
7/1/2015 Suspended, failed to pay Bar membr. fees: Not Eligible To Practice Law
10/25/2013 Admitted to The State Bar of California

Then there best option would be...

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JoeO on December 30, 2015, 02:22:20 pm

Quote from: jippie on December 30, 2015, 07:25:25 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on December 30, 2015, 12:52:03 am

[...]
Remember back around reply #1953 a San Jose State University professor (Physics and Astronomy) called Kiumars Parvin was talking up the Batteriser.
[...]

I think this is the first occurrence of the name in this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg750496/#msg750496 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg750496/#msg750496)

WOW.  Did you notice the word play!
"'We tested the Batteriser sleeve in our lab and we confirmed that the Batteriser taps into the 80 percent of energy that is usually thrown away.' Dr Kiumars Parvin"
Taps into the "80%" but it doesn't say how much of the "80%" it uses.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 30, 2015, 03:16:49 pm

10 out of 10 for that part of the word play ... but somewhat of a fail on the latter part: "taps into the 80 percent of energy that is usually thrown away"

If I remember correctly, Dave's voltage tests on various bits of gear put the dropout level at around the 1.0V level - and when you look under the discharge curve (he scribbled on), the energy discarded is more like 8% than 80%.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on December 30, 2015, 07:21:09 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 30, 2015, 03:16:49 pm

10 out of 10 for that part of the word play ... but somewhat of a fail on the latter part: "taps into the 80 percent of energy that is usually thrown away"

If I remember correctly, Dave's voltage tests on various bits of gear put the dropout level at around the 1.0V level - and when you look under the discharge curve (he scribbled on), the energy discarded is more like 8% than 80%.

The "usually gets thrown away" part is valid, because many people throw away batteries that haven't been full used. Not because the device didn't work any more, but because the device is no longer used or whatever. So he wormed his way around that one too.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 31, 2015, 02:14:04 am

I'm just impressed that a part-time lawyer has an electronics lab in his office.
Maybe he's was visiting Bob, or UL at the time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 31, 2015, 03:07:17 am

Quote from: McBryce on December 30, 2015, 07:21:09 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 30, 2015, 03:16:49 pm

10 out of 10 for that part of the word play ... but somewhat of a fail on the latter part: "taps into the 80 percent of energy that is usually thrown away"

If I remember correctly, Dave's voltage tests on various bits of gear put the dropout level at around the 1.0V level - and when you look under the discharge curve (he scribbled on), the energy discarded is more like 8% than 80%.

The "usually gets thrown away" part is valid, because many people throw away batteries that haven't been full used. Not because the device didn't work any more, but because the device is no longer used or whatever. So he wormed his way around that one too.

McBryce.

In my experience, nearly all batteries that I toss are because the device stops working.  I could accept a classification of "rarely" or perhaps "sometimes" (at a push), but there's no way I could use the word "usually".

Admittedly there will be the odd occasion where a device is no longer used and you might remove the batteries to prevent damage from leaking and then dispose of them because their questionable state of charge, but I would put that on a frequency an order of magnitude or two below replacement of exhausted batteries.

I would think I am not unique in this.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on December 31, 2015, 03:25:42 am

Hi group,

Quote from: SL4P on December 31, 2015, 02:14:04 am

I'm just impressed that a part-time lawyer has an electronics lab in his office.
Maybe he's was visiting Bob, or UL at the time.

I don't think the lawyer has a lab. There is a possibility that the lawyer's dad, who may be a professor of Astronomy and Physics at SJSU may have a lab. Where do you get the idea that the lawyer has a lab?

Remember you can still pre-order the Batteriser http://batteriser.com/ (http://batteriser.com/) They are still showing shipping on the 31st of December 2015:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=190587;image)

I strongly suggest that you read all the message in this thread before you order. ;)

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 31, 2015, 03:45:27 am

a quote earlier in this thread lifted by wytnuckles
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg750496/#msg750496 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg750496/#msg750496)

Quote

'We tested the Batteriser sleeve in our lab and we confirmed that the Batteriser taps into the 80 percent of energy that is usually thrown away.' Dr Kiumars Parvin

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on December 31, 2015, 04:12:14 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 31, 2015, 03:07:17 am

In my experience, nearly all batteries that I toss are because the device stops working.  I could accept a classification of "rarely" or perhaps "sometimes" (at a push), but there's no way I could use the word "usually".

Admittedly there will be the odd occasion where a device is no longer used and you might remove the batteries to prevent damage from leaking and then dispose of them because their questionable state of charge, but I would put that on a frequency an order of magnitude or two below replacement of exhausted batteries.

I would think I am not unique in this.

The Batteriser guys like to point to this paper:  http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)  as evidence that there is a significant amount of energy left in batteries that get thrown out.  While the paper is old (over 12 years old) and they have taken some liberties with the capacities of the discarded batteries, a surprising number of batteries were discarded that had significant remaining capacity left.  Of course the paper goes on to say that they suspect the batteries are being discarded for a variety of reasons, not all of which are that the product stopped working (e.g. people throw a relatively fresh set of batteries away to guarantee that they have a fresh set in their digital camera before heading off on that weekend trip--I used to do that myself frequently before I had a smartphone--my digital camera was notorious for eating through batteries and it was just easier to throw in a new set even though the old set may still have reasonable capacity).

The point being is that at the very least they can make this claim by pointing to this paper without having to stretch the truth too much (although technically they still have to stretch it to arrive at "usually" and "80 percent" in the same sentence, or at least redefine what they mean by 80%).  They just have to omit the facts that more recent products that would cause people to throw away good batteries either use rechargeables or are better designed.

Honestly that part of their argument is not what bothers me, at least not any more than most of the marketing rubbish that most companies put out, including reputable ones.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on December 31, 2015, 05:14:31 am

Quote from: SL4P on December 31, 2015, 03:45:27 am

a quote earlier in this thread lifted by wytnuckles
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg750496/#msg750496 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg750496/#msg750496)

Quote

'We tested the Batteriser sleeve in our lab and we confirmed that the Batteriser taps into the 80 percent of energy that is usually thrown away.' Dr Kiumars Parvin

The lawyer is Pardees Parvin

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 31, 2015, 05:17:08 am

hard to keep track of the bs!
my bad!  I'll have to start a map of all the players.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 31, 2015, 05:18:39 am

Quote from: lpickup on December 31, 2015, 04:12:14 am

The point being is that at the very least they can make this claim by pointing to this paper without having to stretch the truth too much (although technically they still have to stretch it to arrive at "usually" and "80 percent" in the same sentence, or at least redefine what they mean by 80%).  They just have to omit the facts that more recent products that would cause people to throw away good batteries either use rechargeables or are better designed.

I'll agree with the stretching part - just that I feel it's well and truly overstretched.


It just occurred to me - isn't stretching something you do before running?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 31, 2015, 07:13:29 am

I tend to use batteries in the following way, or at least I did so before changinmg mostly to a rechargeable regime.

High current loads like a camera, till the camera shows low battery. Then those cells will go into a collection used for medium loads, like analogue wall clocks and remotes, where you use it till it is pretty much completely depleted. That way the cells that are not working any more in the remotes and clocks are pretty much no longer capable of delivering more than 10mA of current into any load, which means that they are pretty much depleted, but they still are capable of running a LCD display clock for a good few months, until the LCD is poor contrast and the cell is pretty much fully depleted. Then they go into the scrap metal pile for recycling.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Simon on December 31, 2015, 09:50:50 am

I just use rechargeables and keep a spare freshly charged set to hand, that way I have at least one fresh set and all juice is used. I have become well known at work for walking around with a torch in each pocket and often get asked why I carry two, the answer is that when one goes dud i just use the other and charge it as soon as I can. Plus having two is handy no and then. The torch is not much bigger than the single AA cell (or whatever the lithium equivalent is) so hardly worth carrying a spare battery to change with in the dark.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on December 31, 2015, 12:23:19 pm

Quote from: Simon on December 31, 2015, 09:50:50 am

I just use rechargeables and keep a spare freshly charged set to hand, that way I have at least one fresh set and all juice is used. I have become well known at work for walking around with a torch in each pocket and often get asked why I carry two, the answer is that when one goes dud i just use the other and charge it as soon as I can. Plus having two is handy no and then. The torch is not much bigger than the single AA cell (or whatever the lithium equivalent is) so hardly worth carrying a spare battery to change with in the dark.

Me to, I use Eneloops wherever I can. They even work great in low current devices due to their extremely low self discharge characteristics.
I use a decent charger which helps to prolong their lifespan.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on December 31, 2015, 02:09:48 pm

Quote from: SeanB on December 31, 2015, 07:13:29 am

I tend to use batteries in the following way, or at least I did so before changinmg mostly to a rechargeable regime.

High current loads like a camera, till the camera shows low battery. Then those cells will go into a collection used for medium loads, like analogue wall clocks and remotes, where you use it till it is pretty much completely depleted. That way the cells that are not working any more in the remotes and clocks are pretty much no longer capable of delivering more than 10mA of current into any load, which means that they are pretty much depleted, but they still are capable of running a LCD display clock for a good few months, until the LCD is poor contrast and the cell is pretty much fully depleted. Then they go into the scrap metal pile for recycling.

This is probably how we should all operate...even I, a staunch renewable energy and efficiency nut, don't even get close to this level of effort, and actually I'm not really even sure how I would.  When I was using my digital camera, it would FLY through batteries, as in 4 cells every month of two if I was actually using the camera. As for the other loads I have around the house (remotes, clocks, etc.) that would be candidate targets for those cells, I probably replace 2-4 cells a year.  Granted, if I was tossing in the partially depleted camera batteries into those devices I suspect my replacement rate would increase, but I suspect at the end of the day I would still end up with a growing pile of partially depleted batteries.

This topic has actually taught me one thing about that camera though:  I always assumed the batteries really WERE dead when the camera failed to turned off moments after I turned it on.  In reality there was probably some usable amount of energy left usable by lighter load devices.  But I agree with you that rechargeable is the way to go for those high current draw devices.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 31, 2015, 02:26:33 pm

That is why I got the hell in with the nice clock that ate new batteries in a month. I swapped it with an older one which runs a year or more on a cell ( though there is one at home which is still using the same AA cell from 5 years ago, still not leaking at last check) and power it off a 12V standby source. 14Ah of cell capacity ( more or less at this low load, and dropout will be at a level terminal to the cell recovering anyway) will run it fine for any power failure short of a 6 month outage. Also discovered that clock oscillators are really dependant on cell voltage, this one gains time at 1V6,  tried 1V2 and it keeps time perfectly.

I have some NiCd cells in an alarm clock, been in there for over a decade and still do the job. Originally used a CR2032 cell, but got modified a little, now has a 3V regulator using a AC129 PNP germanium transistor, simply because it uses the 3V rail as switch common, and i disliked the slide switch, so put in a small BCD switch instead. My alarm clock, has been running for nearly 30 years. Ricoh made a good module for sure.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on December 31, 2015, 09:53:19 pm

Quote from: lpickup on December 31, 2015, 02:09:48 pm

Quote from: SeanB on December 31, 2015, 07:13:29 am

I tend to use batteries in the following way, or at least I did so before changinmg mostly to a rechargeable regime.

High current loads like a camera, till the camera shows low battery. Then those cells will go into a collection used for medium loads, like analogue wall clocks and remotes, where you use it till it is pretty much completely depleted. That way the cells that are not working any more in the remotes and clocks are pretty much no longer capable of delivering more than 10mA of current into any load, which means that they are pretty much depleted, but they still are capable of running a LCD display clock for a good few months, until the LCD is poor contrast and the cell is pretty much fully depleted. Then they go into the scrap metal pile for recycling.

This is probably how we should all operate...even I, a staunch renewable energy and efficiency nut, don't even get close to this level of effort, and actually I'm not really even sure how I would.  When I was using my digital camera, it would FLY through batteries, as in 4 cells every month of two if I was actually using the camera. As for the other loads I have around the house (remotes, clocks, etc.) that would be candidate targets for those cells, I probably replace 2-4 cells a year.  Granted, if I was tossing in the partially depleted camera batteries into those devices I suspect my replacement rate would increase, but I suspect at the end of the day I would still end up with a growing pile of partially depleted batteries.

This topic has actually taught me one thing about that camera though:  I always assumed the batteries really WERE dead when the camera failed to turned off moments after I turned it on.  In reality there was probably some usable amount of energy left usable by lighter load devices.  But I agree with you that rechargeable is the way to go for those high current draw devices.

4 cells every month? That's not flying through batteries. I remember around 2000 or so, my mother bought a digital camera (early Kodak model) to use for her eBay business. That thing ate a set of batteries (4xAA) an hour! It wouldn't take rechargeable cells either. So we'd buy 200 packs of alkaline cells at the warehouse club.

It was still better than shooting on film, having it developed and scanning the pictures in, which is what she was doing before hand.

Later we got a Sony camera. That managed to only take a set a day, which is amazing considering it stored photos on a floppy disk! I think you could hook an AC adapter to it as well, but it was a pita because the cord wasn't quite long enough, so the brick hung from the camera when it was on a tripod. It would occasionally topple the whole thing over if you weren't careful.

Ah, those were the days. Now she uses an iPhone 6 for all her photos. By the time she gets back to her computer, the photos are there waiting for her.

Besides, who the hell in 2015 doesn't buy a digital camera with swappable lion packs? The only people who actually buy digital cameras these days are people who need DSLR quality and features. Everyone else just used their phone.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on December 31, 2015, 10:08:01 pm

not long to go before they either have to live up to their promise of Dec 31st shipping or coming up with another excuse.  Cue the indegogo questions tomorrow.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on December 31, 2015, 10:30:14 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on December 31, 2015, 10:08:01 pm

not long to go before they either have to live up to their promise of Dec 31st shipping or coming up with another excuse.  Cue the indegogo questions tomorrow.....

Looks like we are going to need a whole more popcorn  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on January 01, 2016, 02:29:12 am

5 1/2 hours left, Bob. Tick tock...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on January 01, 2016, 02:32:58 am

Tick tick, tick...crap, my battery died; I needed my Batteriser lol.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 01, 2016, 08:39:30 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on December 31, 2015, 10:08:01 pm

not long to go before they either have to live up to their promise of Dec 31st shipping or coming up with another excuse.  Cue the indegogo questions tomorrow.....

They have already said they won't ship until January.
But of course that's unlikely to happen with the Energizer lawsuit hanging over their heads.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on January 01, 2016, 09:22:00 am

You will need a container of popping corn, a big industrial microwave, a large pyrex dish to hold the corn for oilless popping, and a whole container again of assorted spices ( use fresh ground mixed pepper and some garlic salt), plus a few thousand disposable paper dishes to hold for munching from.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on January 01, 2016, 10:30:51 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 01, 2016, 08:39:30 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on December 31, 2015, 10:08:01 pm

not long to go before they either have to live up to their promise of Dec 31st shipping or coming up with another excuse.  Cue the indegogo questions tomorrow.....

They have already said they won't ship until January.
But of course that's unlikely to happen with the Energizer lawsuit hanging over their heads.

Ah yes, but, they still have December 31st shipping date specified on all "products" on their online shop website thing.  They certainly like to be inconsistent and confusing!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on January 01, 2016, 11:20:03 am

Talking about scams, the other day whilst out shopping I purchased two packets of potato chips and when we got home I started to put the shopping away and found that one bag of chips was a bit lighter than the other so I weighed them both, one was at 177 grams and the other at 152 yet the packages say 175 grams.

These are a popular big name brand of potato chips, chicken flavour, What do we do ?

Should I make a complaint with the potential of getting some compensation...... :popcorn: :popcorn:...... or eat the chips...... :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Simon on January 01, 2016, 11:37:12 am

they probably have a disclaimer about possible variation in weight due to being mechanically packed by machine.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on January 01, 2016, 11:44:37 am

Quote from: Simon on January 01, 2016, 11:37:12 am

they probably have a disclaimer about possible variation in weight due to being mechanically packed by machine.

You will see a letter 'e' after the weight indication. This means that on average over a certain amount of bags the weight is no less then indicated.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on January 01, 2016, 11:51:19 am

Quote from: meeder on January 01, 2016, 11:44:37 am

Quote from: Simon on January 01, 2016, 11:37:12 am

they probably have a disclaimer about possible variation in weight due to being mechanically packed by machine.

You will see a letter 'e' after the weight indication. This means that on average over a certain amount of bags the weight is no less then indicated.

I think that's only for Europe, and still for a package of 100-200 grams it can not go 4.5% lower than what is indicated, so the minimum in the example given should be 167.125 grams.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on January 01, 2016, 12:08:21 pm

There is no "e" after the 175 gm, it does say on the rear label this package is sold by weight not volume, some settling of the contents may occur during shipping.

I got done like a dinner, scandalous affair......  :o

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Joule Thief on January 01, 2016, 12:12:18 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on January 01, 2016, 11:20:03 am

I started to put the shopping away and found that one bag of chips was a bit lighter than the other so I weighed them both, one was at 177 grams and the other at 152 yet the packages say 175 grams.

make sure there isn't a 25 gram mouse packed in the first bag  :scared: :scared:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on January 01, 2016, 12:13:11 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on January 01, 2016, 12:08:21 pm

I got done like a dinner, scandalous affair......  :o

I feel your pain, what a lousy way to start the new year!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on January 01, 2016, 12:50:45 pm

Packed by a multihead form fill and seal machine. You probably got a bag where all the heads filled low mass, so it could not get a solution in the desired mass range for the pack, so dumped all that were ready to complete the cycle on schedule. It runs multiple weighing hoppers, and fills them from a central feed, then per cycle ( that is the determining factor, all heads that indicate settled and ready are used for the fill cycle in progress while the others are either filling up after release or are in a settle time regime to get a final mass) calculated which heads need release to fit in the desired set point and allowable variation.

Slower machines use a vibratory feeder and a hopper, and use variable feed speed to get a rough fill then a fine fill to desired mass, but then your cycle time is going to be longer as you wait for a feeder to go ready then dump it. The multihead will at any time have 2 cycles in process, the pack being filled and the next pack dropping down the feed tube, with the cycle being fast enough that as the fill reaches the base of the tube a bag is dropping down to relieve it, and then the sealer jaw closes to form the end seals for 2 bags and separates them with a serrated cutter during the seal cycle.

A complex mix of programmable logic, mechanical design, hot metal, rubber feed belts, servo motors ramping up from zero to 100Hz in 5 cycles on a variable speed drive ( and if you have a few of these machines you do common the motor DC bus to them all to save having to use a 1kW brake resistor block per machine) and PID loops which have to all be set up, along with some high resolution mass measurement in a very noisy environment. When they work they work well, but when they sort of work it can be a pain to get them running properly again.

Here is a new base sealer, you can see the parts and operation, though the multihead filler is not shown. Nice machine, hate to think of the price though, but I can get a locally made one for around $20k.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf5VcU_Uf8w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf5VcU_Uf8w)

The multihead filler, showing the computer controls and the method of operation. Not chips but friut, but same principle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN4xVE0ws4U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN4xVE0ws4U)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on January 01, 2016, 12:59:35 pm

Yes but technically I still got diddled.

I cant link it from here and I didn't mean to take the thread off topic but there was a recent TV show down here called Mega Factories which was a guided tour of the Frito Lay plant in the US, mouth watering stuff, anyway it's on Youtube.

My complaint about the chips is not that we are out by 23 grams it's that the manufacturer is and they should have it down pat by now, this is only one packet out of who knows how many, worth a call to be fair I think.

Anyway companies that make false claims in regards to promised values and in particular the lack of required chips need to be held accountable, maybe I'm not that far off topic after all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Simon on January 01, 2016, 01:03:47 pm

try this for being scammed on food:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 01, 2016, 02:08:05 pm

If it's still sealed, then you have a demonstrable complaint.  Make a call.

You might get nothing out of it other than the satisfaction of getting it off your chest, but they might offer you something.


Many years ago I had a tin of John West tuna that had far more liquid than normal, so I rang them.  They sent a rep to my work who checked it out and agreed there had been more 'cook out' than there should be - and he exchanged the tin for a bag of half a dozen other John West products.  No fuss.  No argument.  Just good PR.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Simon on January 01, 2016, 02:12:12 pm

Well I'm pretty sure this is not the first one I've had, I know that they are all like this, It's the usual scam and I'm surte they will hide behind the usual "photo is a serving suggestion", I will just never buy food their again and not much of anything else, had some mains socket timers from them fail as well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: cs.dk on January 01, 2016, 02:18:06 pm

Quote from: Brumby on January 01, 2016, 02:08:05 pm

Many years ago I had a tin of John West tuna that had far more liquid than normal, so I rang them.  They sent a rep to my work who checked it out and agreed there had been more 'cook out' than there should be - and he exchanged the tin for a bag of half a dozen other John West products.  No fuss.  No argument.  Just good PR.

I've tried similar with "Beauvais" many years ago. Bought some sliced cucumber salad in a supermarked, which was not so crisp as they used to be. They really was poor, did not eat them.
Complained to the factory and got a hell of a big package with allmost all their products in, as a compensation. Thats customer care :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Simon on January 01, 2016, 02:20:19 pm

Well in this case any such action would just be damage control, customer care would be to not sell this rubbish in the first place. If they were to offer free replacements etc I would tell them to stuff it and instead refund every transaction they could to people who bought these scams.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: cs.dk on January 01, 2016, 02:22:19 pm

Quote from: Simon on January 01, 2016, 02:20:19 pm

Well in this case any such action would just be damage control, customer care would be to not sell this rubbish in the first place. If they were to offer free replacements etc I would tell them to stuff it and instead refund every transaction they could to people who bought these scams.

I don't know if you were refering to my post;
But they usually make some really good products - And when they fail (it may be once in my lifetime to return a thing to them), they compensate great. I still buy their products.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Simon on January 01, 2016, 02:23:15 pm

yes which is why I said "in this case" which I meant to refer to my case not yours

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: cs.dk on January 01, 2016, 02:34:17 pm

Quote from: Simon on January 01, 2016, 02:23:15 pm

yes which is why I said "in this case" which I meant to refer to my case not yours

Ohh sorry... Language barriers sometimes ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Simon on January 01, 2016, 02:37:04 pm

I didn't explain it well to be honest.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on January 01, 2016, 10:41:01 pm

Meanwhile, in the Batteriser office...

"Quick, the forum guys are distracted! Quietly change the shipping date to March 2016! Downgrade to the current output to 550mA! Remove all references to anything higher! Post a vague status update that we're still on track to ship units out 'for the New Year'!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Simon on January 01, 2016, 10:45:42 pm

Quote from: quad on January 01, 2016, 10:41:01 pm

Meanwhile, in the Batteriser office...

"Quick, the forum guys are distracted! Quietly change the shipping date to March 2016! Downgrade to the current output to 550mA! Remove all references to anything higher! Post a vague status update that we're still on track to ship units out 'for the New Year'!"

I'm more than distracted from this batterizer thing, I know little about it and have nothing to loose from it. how have they managed to rile up the battery manufacturers ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 01, 2016, 11:04:52 pm

Quote from: Simon on January 01, 2016, 10:45:42 pm

how have they managed to rile up the battery manufacturers ?

a) Using a name that is deliberately similar to Energizer
b) Making ridiculous performance claims they can't possibly meet, hence potentially exasperating issues with name confusion in a)
c) Claiming that I and other bloggers are paid by "big battery"
d) Claiming that batteries are tossed out with up to 80% of energy left in from most products, and hence, perhaps by association that "big battery" is somehow complicate in this "secret".

It might ultimately ruin our fun getting our hands on a Batteriser, but I don't blame Energizer for suing them at all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on January 01, 2016, 11:40:49 pm

Are we sure this kerfuffle is a 'suing'?
I thought it was an opposition to a Trade Mark application?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on January 01, 2016, 11:53:28 pm

A couple of people on Facebook are asking the hard questions...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=190902;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: RonZ on January 02, 2016, 12:56:52 am

Dave
Loved the video well done. I can across this while seeing what info was around for single cell boost converters like the one I bought http://www.trademe.co.nz/electronics-photography/other-electronics/electronic-components/other/auction-1006395137.htm (http://www.trademe.co.nz/electronics-photography/other-electronics/electronic-components/other/auction-1006395137.htm) (advertised on eBay as well) cost $2.90 NZ I expected it to be junk and it was. The ripple output voltage is huge I measured this as outputting 1.2 volts pp delivering 5 volts of output into a 47 ohm resistor. This corresponds to a current a bit over 100mA. So if the Batteriser is anything like this piece of junk. I wouldn't even contemplate using it. Incidentally this video persuaded me to join the eeVBlog forum.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on January 02, 2016, 02:22:26 pm

Quote from: RonZ on January 02, 2016, 12:56:52 am

Dave
Loved the video well done. I can across this while seeing what info was around for single cell boost converters like the one I bought http://www.trademe.co.nz/electronics-photography/other-electronics/electronic-components/other/auction-1006395137.htm (http://www.trademe.co.nz/electronics-photography/other-electronics/electronic-components/other/auction-1006395137.htm) (advertised on eBay as well) cost $2.90 NZ I expected it to be junk and it was. The ripple output voltage is huge I measured this as outputting 1.2 volts pp delivering 5 volts of output into a 47 ohm resistor. This corresponds to a current a bit over 100mA. So if the Batteriser is anything like this piece of junk. I wouldn't even contemplate using it. Incidentally this video persuaded me to join the eeVBlog forum.

Have you tried to place a capacitor to the output. It looks like the board itself doesn't have decent capacitor at the output, so I guess that the board assumes that the device to be powered will contain applicable capacitor.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 02, 2016, 07:43:12 pm

Quote from: RonZ on January 02, 2016, 12:56:52 am

Dave
Loved the video well done. I can across this while seeing what info was around for single cell boost converters like the one I bought http://www.trademe.co.nz/electronics-photography/other-electronics/electronic-components/other/auction-1006395137.htm (http://www.trademe.co.nz/electronics-photography/other-electronics/electronic-components/other/auction-1006395137.htm) (advertised on eBay as well) cost $2.90 NZ I expected it to be junk and it was. The ripple output voltage is huge I measured this as outputting 1.2 volts pp delivering 5 volts of output into a 47 ohm resistor. This corresponds to a current a bit over 100mA.

I've got a few of those. Yes, they struggle to produce more than about 30mA with only a single battery as input. A capacitor would help with the ripple, but...only up to a point.

They work much better with 2 batteries as input and very well indeed with 3 batteries - I've powered many Arduino projects with one of those and a 3xAA battery pack.

Remember: Batteriser doesn't boost to 5V, it only boosts to 1.5V. That's a big difference, over three times less.

Proportionally speaking Batteriser is more like using your booster with 3 batteries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: nixxon on January 02, 2016, 09:08:53 pm

What is Worth noting about the address? Looking at the satelite photo, there is a lot of tarmac (asphalt) on the property and some tall trees as well. But again, what is Worth noting?

(I don't know why, but some Words get Capital letters automagically when writing a post)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on January 02, 2016, 09:11:29 pm

Quote from: nixxon on January 02, 2016, 09:08:53 pm

What is Worth noting about the address? Looking at the satelite photo, there is a lot of tarmac (asphalt) on the property and some tall trees as well. But again, what is Worth noting?

Qualcomm

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on January 02, 2016, 09:51:16 pm

It's also the address of SK Telecom Americas, and they seem to have some kind of start-up funding program (http://www.skta.com/innopartners-accelerator/).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Groucho2005 on January 02, 2016, 09:56:48 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on January 02, 2016, 08:33:35 pm

310 De Guigne Road
Sunnyvale

There is no "De Guigne Road" in Sunnyvale, only "De Guigne Drive". Your Norwegian Google Maps is having some kind of seizure. Your map is showing Qualcomm,  3165 Kifer Rd Santa Clara, CA 95051.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 02, 2016, 09:57:31 pm

I would not be concerned about the address. Companies in Silicon Valley move faster than Google maps can keep up. It part of the culture. The companies out grow (or shrink) their home and move to different places.

SK Telecom Americas Inc. is at the address:

310 De Guigne Road
Sunnyvale, CA 94085

SK Telecom is Bateroo's VC company. So this part makes sense.

(wrote the same time as the previous post)

If you Google the address you will also find:

http://www.menloequities.com/property-portfolio/86 (http://www.menloequities.com/property-portfolio/86)

This shows Maxim as a tenant. But this old historic information.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 02, 2016, 09:59:29 pm

And there could be multiples company in the same building, depends on the building size

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on January 02, 2016, 10:00:33 pm

Saw this comic, and somehow it seems appropriate here.........

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3974 (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3974)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 02, 2016, 10:45:49 pm

Quote from: RonZ on January 02, 2016, 12:56:52 am

Dave
Loved the video well done. I can across this while seeing what info was around for single cell boost converters like the one I bought http://www.trademe.co.nz/electronics-photography/other-electronics/electronic-components/other/auction-1006395137.htm (http://www.trademe.co.nz/electronics-photography/other-electronics/electronic-components/other/auction-1006395137.htm) (advertised on eBay as well) cost $2.90 NZ I expected it to be junk and it was. The ripple output voltage is huge I measured this as outputting 1.2 volts pp delivering 5 volts of output into a 47 ohm resistor. This corresponds to a current a bit over 100mA. So if the Batteriser is anything like this piece of junk. I wouldn't even contemplate using it.

Welcome.
Yes, the output ripple voltage could be pretty bad, it's going to be a function of the output current, switching frequency, and output capacitance (which by the physical nature of the Batteriser, must be absolutely tiny) which could include any input capacitance of the product itself.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 02, 2016, 11:07:34 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on December 30, 2015, 12:52:03 am

Hi group,
Remember back around reply #1953 a San Jose State University professor (Physics and Astronomy) called Kiumars Parvin was talking up the Batteriser.
Well it turns out the attorney representing Batteroo in the trademark dispute with Energizer happens to be Pardees Parvin.
A coincidence, may be, but www.Whitepages.com (http://www.Whitepages.com) has a Kiumars Parvin and a Pardees Parvin at the same address.
I suspect that they might just be related.....

In that case he probably works cheap!  :-+
They could do with that right now I'm guessing.
I wonder what their VC's think about that choice of defense team?
Does the guy have any experience with Trademark law?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on January 02, 2016, 11:25:23 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on December 27, 2015, 12:54:39 pm

They could always settle quickly with Energizer and change the product name fairly cheaply

Nah ! Energizer will have to be renamed :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 03, 2016, 12:20:13 am

Quote from: Kalvin on December 30, 2015, 05:12:55 am

Their defense doesn't look too good:
Pardees Parvin - #291291
http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Member/Detail/291291 (http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Member/Detail/291291)
Current Status:  Active
This member is active and may practice law in California.
9/8/2015 Active
7/1/2015 Suspended, failed to pay Bar membr. fees: Not Eligible To Practice Law
10/25/2013 Admitted to The State Bar of California

Seems to be no record of him being a registered Patent or Trademark Attorney.
If he's just a regular Joe Bloggs attorney then good luck going up against Energiser in a Trademark defense case, a lamb to the slaughter.
Sounds like they aren't serious about defending this trademark?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheSteve on January 03, 2016, 04:56:57 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 03, 2016, 12:20:13 am

Quote from: Kalvin on December 30, 2015, 05:12:55 am

Their defense doesn't look too good:
Pardees Parvin - #291291
http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Member/Detail/291291 (http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Member/Detail/291291)
Current Status:  Active
This member is active and may practice law in California.
9/8/2015 Active
7/1/2015 Suspended, failed to pay Bar membr. fees: Not Eligible To Practice Law
10/25/2013 Admitted to The State Bar of California

Seems to be no record of him being a registered Patent or Trademark Attorney.
If he's just a regular Joe Bloggs attorney then good luck going up against Energiser in a Trademark defense case, a lamb to the slaughter.
Sounds like they aren't serious about defending this trademark?

The lawsuit is just what they need to avoid ever having to ship a product they know doesn't really work. Now they can just go bankrupt "fighting" a lawsuit and fold the company all the while saying they had the best product in the world but it was a crushed by "big battery".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 03, 2016, 05:05:25 am

Not the first time that scenario has been suggested - but it does pretty well write itself, doesn't it?

A sufficiently credible escape route.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 03, 2016, 06:10:13 am

No messages from backers in the last 10 days. Seems they don't really care?
I find that remarkable out of over 7000 backers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on January 03, 2016, 07:03:40 am

More likely they turned on moderation......

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on January 03, 2016, 09:32:28 am

The Energiser suit does spoil the fun IMHO. Personally I don't really see people mixing the two up just because there is iser in the name.
Duracel isn't suing Accucell because of the 'cell' part in the name for example... http://www.conrad-electronic.co.uk/ce/en/product/650445/Accucell-RAM-baby-battery-3000-mAh-2pc-15-V

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 03, 2016, 10:17:43 am

I think you will find the phonetic comparison between Energizer and Batteriser more interesting:

En	-	er	-	gi	-	zer
Batt	-	er	-	i	-	ser
Different		Same		Very Similar		Same

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on January 03, 2016, 10:22:16 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 03, 2016, 10:17:43 am

I think you will find the phonetic comparison between Energizer and Batteriser more interesting:

En	-	er	-	gi	-	zer
Batt	-	er	-	i	-	ser
Different		Same		Very Similar		Same

The 'er' isn't same phonetically in both.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on January 03, 2016, 10:27:14 am

There is a difference in Dutch on the ser and zer, but in the USA there is pretty much no difference in US English.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 03, 2016, 10:34:58 am

Quote from: meeder on January 03, 2016, 09:32:28 am

The Energiser suit does spoil the fun IMHO.

Let's all write to Energizer and get them to drop the lawsuit.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on January 03, 2016, 11:29:54 am

Quote from: Fungus on January 03, 2016, 10:34:58 am

Quote from: meeder on January 03, 2016, 09:32:28 am

The Energiser suit does spoil the fun IMHO.

Let's all write to Energizer and get them to drop the lawsuit.  [emoji14]opcorn:

"Please let us have some fun, your lawsuit is probably ending a year long sitcom for us before it ends the way it should" ;-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 03, 2016, 11:32:44 am

Quote from: SeanB on January 03, 2016, 10:27:14 am

..... on the ser and zer, but in the USA there is pretty much no difference in US English.

Same in Australia

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on January 03, 2016, 11:58:52 am

Actually Batteroo-gang haven't shipped anything yet, so it is possible that they do not have face any penalties if they just change the Batteriser to something else like Batteroo, and behave well and in good spirit towards the Energizer. After all, they are after the big fish like dumb investors with more money than brain.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Simon on January 03, 2016, 12:02:49 pm

lets face it the yanks don't know the difference between "z" and "s" and use them interchangeably a lot of the time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on January 03, 2016, 12:13:16 pm

Quote from: Simon on January 03, 2016, 12:02:49 pm

lets face it the yanks don't know the difference between "z" and "s" and use them interchangeably a lot of the time.

For us, the non-native writers/speakers, this is just a good thing as we make fewer mistakes :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 03, 2016, 12:56:15 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on January 03, 2016, 11:58:52 am

Actually Batteroo-gang haven't shipped anything yet, so it is possible that they do not have face any penalties if they just change the Batteriser to something else like Batteroo, and behave well and in good spirit towards the Energizer. After all, they are after the big fish like dumb investors with more money than brain.

Yes but if they have a good excuse to not ship, they'll take it.

Why would they want all the expense and embarrassment of shipping something they know doesn't work?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 03, 2016, 02:09:13 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 03, 2016, 12:56:15 pm

... but if they have a good excuse to not ship, they'll take it.

I wonder... What are the odds of them leveraging as much as they can from any litigation.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on January 03, 2016, 02:36:29 pm

800% for sure................

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Neilm on January 03, 2016, 02:47:43 pm

Quote from: Simon on January 03, 2016, 12:02:49 pm

lets face it the yanks don't know the difference between "z" and "s" and use them interchangeably a lot of the time.

Could cause confusion if a military person wants a fuze for his multimeter.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on January 03, 2016, 03:00:12 pm

Quote from: Neilm on January 03, 2016, 02:47:43 pm

Quote from: Simon on January 03, 2016, 12:02:49 pm

lets face it the yanks don't know the difference between "z" and "s" and use them interchangeably a lot of the time.

Could cause confusion if a military person wants a fuze for his multimeter.

Not in the military, they just return it to stores and get another one....... Repair depot works on a part number, they do not care what it is so long as the number is in the breakdown for the particular instrument.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Neilm on January 03, 2016, 06:25:46 pm

A fuze is the bit of a bomb that makes it go bang. A fuse is the cartridge bit that protects against overcurrent.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on January 03, 2016, 06:27:57 pm

Word about the trademark case has emerged on the Batteriser Facebook page in Visitor Posts.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=191212;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=191214;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=191216;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on January 03, 2016, 11:00:53 pm

At least those people who were looking to receive the Batteriser have an equally useless product to fall back on should the need arise, it appears that these people did follow through and the Kickstarter page indicates that they did ship. Perhaps Zippo or Bic might be a better choice for those wanting to ignite something.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1097965489/lightors-the-worlds-first-monster-batteries?ref=category_popular (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1097965489/lightors-the-worlds-first-monster-batteries?ref=category_popular)

http://www.gadgetreview.com/lightors-usb-rechargeable-batteries-you-need-in-your-life (http://www.gadgetreview.com/lightors-usb-rechargeable-batteries-you-need-in-your-life)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAd0gmauqG0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAd0gmauqG0)

 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on January 04, 2016, 12:03:07 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on January 03, 2016, 11:00:53 pm

At least those people who were looking to receive the Batteriser have an equally useless product to fall back on should the need arise, it appears that these people did follow through and the Kickstarter page indicates that they did ship. Perhaps Zippo or Bic might be a better choice for those wanting to ignite something.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1097965489/lightors-the-worlds-first-monster-batteries?ref=category_popular (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1097965489/lightors-the-worlds-first-monster-batteries?ref=category_popular)

http://www.gadgetreview.com/lightors-usb-rechargeable-batteries-you-need-in-your-life (http://www.gadgetreview.com/lightors-usb-rechargeable-batteries-you-need-in-your-life)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAd0gmauqG0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAd0gmauqG0)

Why would anybody kickstart this when similar products are already available... I've seen several AA batteries with built-in USB connector already, even at regular retail places. Even a AAA with a fold-out USB connector. Still pointless as you lose a stupid amount of capacity, but the concept isn't new at all.

This crowd-scamming needs to die fast... Good thing all these shit projects will help to achieve that, too bad some people will get ripped off in the process.

Another fun crowd-"funding" example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFX0f_YUn1I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFX0f_YUn1I)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on January 04, 2016, 12:53:33 am

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on January 04, 2016, 12:03:07 am

I've seen several AA batteries with built-in USB connector already, even at regular retail places. Even a AAA with a fold-out USB connector. Still pointless as you lose a stupid amount of capacity, but the concept isn't new at all.

This crowd-scamming needs to die fast... Good thing all these shit projects will help to achieve that, too bad some people will get ripped off in the process.

I agree and you are right in all aspects, I simply hadn't seen them before and there are quite a number of variations on the same theme.

http://www.usbcell.com/product/1 (http://www.usbcell.com/product/1)

http://www.yankodesign.com/2011/01/17/usb-drive-has-another-electrifying-side/ (http://www.yankodesign.com/2011/01/17/usb-drive-has-another-electrifying-side/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 04, 2016, 02:25:41 am

Hi,

I am surprised that Monster didn't go after Lightors for trademark:

https://www.monsterproducts.com/ (https://www.monsterproducts.com/)


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=191273;image)

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 04, 2016, 04:30:28 pm

Quote from: quad on January 03, 2016, 06:27:57 pm

Word about the trademark case has emerged on the Batteriser Facebook page in Visitor Posts.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=191212;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=191214;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=191216;image)

I checked the Batteriser Facebook page today. These Visitor posts are gone. No supprise !!

Let us see if this one survives on the IGG campaign:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=191384;image)

I am surprised as to how few comments there are on the IGG campaign. Are they deleting them ?

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 04, 2016, 07:36:47 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 04, 2016, 04:30:28 pm

I checked the Batteriser Facebook page today. These Visitor posts are gone. No supprise !!

Mine's still there...even got a few likes!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 04, 2016, 10:09:46 pm

Still no real news...  They're still saying "within the next few weeks" as of this morning...

(http://i.imgur.com/tb0zFss.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 04, 2016, 10:22:27 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 04, 2016, 04:30:28 pm

I am surprised as to how few comments there are on the IGG campaign. Are they deleting them ?

There is screen capture evidence on this forum that they have deleted IGG comments on multiple occasions.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on January 04, 2016, 10:22:50 pm

Quote from: drussell on January 04, 2016, 10:09:46 pm

Still no real news...  They're still saying "within the next few weeks" as of this morning...

(http://i.imgur.com/tb0zFss.png)

so, never then

Wont be long before they have to ban everyone from posting on their facebook and severely moderate indegogo comments.   Got my popcorn ready!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on January 04, 2016, 10:29:25 pm

Its a bit of a disappointment, that after all the BS, false claims and outright devious behaviour - that the Battteriser campaign should end up like this!

I'm sure we all expected an explosive teardown on technical merits rather than a small fart caused by 'the product name being confusing...'

Oh well. Batteroo got their money, the VCs got shafted, and the IGG backers get nothing.  The earth is still turning!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on January 04, 2016, 11:55:14 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on January 01, 2016, 12:59:35 pm

Yes but technically I still got diddled.

My complaint about the chips is not that we are out by 23 grams it's that the manufacturer is and they should have it down pat by now, this is only one packet out of who knows how many, worth a call to be fair I think.

Anyway companies that make false claims in regards to promised values and in particular the lack of required chips need to be held accountable, maybe I'm not that far off topic after all.

For those following and eagerly awaiting the outcome of this exciting episode of Muttley got done again, I contacted the manufacturer and the permissible weight tolerance is one percent, they are sending out a Coles Supermarket Gift Card for compensation, I get nothing for the mental anguish although they did declare that I can now eat the chips.

 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 05, 2016, 12:55:55 am

But, dear Muttley, there are a number of positives  from your experience:

The manufacturer

• knows they are being watched
• knows they will be held responsible for delivery of a product that falls short of declared parameters
• should be well aware that such situations may well get broad exposure across social media
• knows it would be in their best interest to make a fair and reasonable response in a timely manner

While you

• have got it off your chest
• made others aware of potential issues
• had your issue acknowledged by the manufacturer
• have an offer of some tangible compensation
• get to eat your chips - even though the packet wasn't 800% 100%

Yes, things can go wrong and when they do, it can be distressing - but the true measure of any manufacturer, merchant or any other party with whom you interact, is how they address a problem.

All things considered, it's probably a reasonable outcome, IMHO.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on January 05, 2016, 01:13:44 am

They are not chips, they are crisps!  😈

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on January 05, 2016, 01:31:18 am

Quote from: Delta on January 05, 2016, 01:13:44 am

They are not chips, they are crisps!  😈

So I should also go them on false product description..... :-//

We call them chips and always have...... :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on January 05, 2016, 01:53:55 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 05, 2016, 12:55:55 am

But, dear Muttley, there are a number of positives  from your experience:

The manufacturer

• knows they are being watched
• knows they will be held responsible for delivery of a product that falls short of declared parameters
• should be well aware that such situations may well get broad exposure across social media
• knows it would be in their best interest to make a fair and reasonable response in a timely manner

While you

• have got it off your chest
• made others aware of potential issues
• had your issue acknowledged by the manufacturer
• have an offer of some tangible compensation
• get to eat your chips - even though the packet wasn't 800% 100%

Yes, things can go wrong and when they do, it can be distressing - but the true measure of any manufacturer, merchant or any other party with whom you interact, is how they address a problem.

All things considered, it's probably a reasonable outcome, IMHO.

Well put and brilliant advice...... :-+

Reminds me of something else but I cant remember exactly what it was right now, anyway unlike some other things it will come to me sooner or later.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on January 05, 2016, 10:11:26 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 04, 2016, 04:30:28 pm

..
I am surprised as to how few comments there are on the IGG campaign. Are they deleting them ?

Maybe they even hired that guy with his software for bulk-deleting posts.

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on January 05, 2016, 10:56:16 am

Quote from: Galenbo on January 05, 2016, 10:11:26 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 04, 2016, 04:30:28 pm

..
I am surprised as to how few comments there are on the IGG campaign. Are they deleting them ?

Maybe they even hired that guy with his software for bulk-deleting posts.

OH SNAP! Bitch just got served an ICE BURN son! Dammmmnnn...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on January 05, 2016, 10:59:30 am

Quote from: timb on January 05, 2016, 10:56:16 am

Quote from: Galenbo on January 05, 2016, 10:11:26 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 04, 2016, 04:30:28 pm

..
I am surprised as to how few comments there are on the IGG campaign. Are they deleting them ?

Maybe they even hired that guy with his software for bulk-deleting posts.

OH SNAP!

Might just take a fiverr (https://www.fiverr.com/) (a.k.a. 5 USD dollars)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on January 06, 2016, 01:27:33 am

Some more Facebook page goodness.

Notice:
1. The epic troll with the electric car post 
2. Batteriser have been called out for deleting posts

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=191642;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=191644;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 06, 2016, 01:37:34 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=191644;image)

Sorry Hibbo, but that just cracked me up.  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on January 06, 2016, 01:40:10 am

Another one. I have a feeling they're going to do a Facebook "cleanse" any time now.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=191646;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 06, 2016, 01:43:26 am

To answer Michael's question - maybe it's because 8 is a lucky number for the Chinese.

(As good an answer as any, isn't it?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ozwolf on January 06, 2016, 02:04:57 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 06, 2016, 01:43:26 am

To answer Michael's question - maybe it's because 8 is a lucky number for the Chinese.

(As good an answer as any, isn't it?)

It's very likely the correct answer.

I very nearly got scammed on the Indiegogo BE Maker Kit (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/be-maker-kit-plus-free-lessons-on-electronics-from-zero-to-internet-of-things#/comments (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/be-maker-kit-plus-free-lessons-on-electronics-from-zero-to-internet-of-things#/comments)).  It's target funding was $88,888.  Guess what, head scammer lived in China. The second in command lives in Florida USA.

The parallels in these two campaigns are remarkable.

It took nearly 1 1/2 years, but I finally did get some product from a person who bought the backer list.

Ozwolf

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on January 06, 2016, 02:09:03 am

Interesting stuff!  I'd wondered why that online casino was called 888poker.com...

Makes sense given that the Chinese are known for their fondness of a flutter!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 06, 2016, 02:25:16 am

DID YOU KNOW - The 2008 Beijing Olympics opening ceremony began at 8pm on 08/08/08.  (And it was not by accident.)


If you want to upset a Chinese, put some 4's their way.  It is a very bad number - as their word for that number sounds a lot like their word for 'death'.

Other numbers have meanings, too, but they are the ones I remember.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: coppice on January 06, 2016, 02:40:05 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 06, 2016, 02:25:16 am

DID YOU KNOW - The 2008 Beijing Olympics opening ceremony began at 8pm on 08/08/08.  (And it was not by accident.)


If you want to upset a Chinese, put some 4's their way.  It is a very bad number - as their word for that number sounds a lot like their word for 'death'.

Other numbers have meanings, too, but they are the ones I remember.

4 sounds like dead. 8 sounds like wealth. The Chinese are really big on these things. Go in a western shop and things have prices like 99.99, trying hard to avoid that third figure before the decimal point. Go in a Chinese shop and they might price something like 98.88, eager to stay below 3 digits, but keen to get as many 8s in the number as possible.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on January 06, 2016, 08:59:09 am

Quote from: coppice on January 06, 2016, 02:40:05 am

Go in a Chinese shop and they might price something like 98.88, eager to stay below 3 digits, but keen to get as many 8s in the number as possible.

Interesting! In the computershop I worked 20 yrs ago the products were priced with the last digits (always odd numbers btw) meant how much rebate the seller could give during negotiating.
Saved the sellers for looking each article up or asking the manager.
It went something like this if I remember correctly:
xx,99 no discount possible, lowest price possible
xx,97 max 5% discount possible
xx,95 max 10% discount possible
xx,93 15% or more discount possible

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 07, 2016, 03:39:54 am

Hi group,

The Pre-Order section of Batteriser.com has been changed:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=191901;image)

The shipping date is has been changed to a totally meaningless 30 days. 30 days from what?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=191908;image)

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on January 07, 2016, 08:08:06 am

Quote from: quad on January 06, 2016, 01:40:10 am

Another one. I have a feeling they're going to do a Facebook "cleanse" any time now.
...

They can keep on deleting, at the risk bumping on someone who is really pissed off, and starts a facebook page like: "Batteriser ripped me off"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 07, 2016, 11:35:43 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 07, 2016, 03:39:54 am

Hi group,

The Pre-Order section of Batteriser.com has been changed:

Are they still taking orders? Uhuh.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on January 07, 2016, 11:52:15 am

You know...
I took a look at the original Batteriser campaign on IGG, and while not excusing the crap that has come from Batteroo, they were only looking for $30K originally.  It was the gullible investors and backers that took the whole new level of Batteriser having to resort to questionable behaviour.

If they quietly returned the backer funds to IGG, then bend over like 'Probes' the monkey... the VC investors can do whatever they want.  It can't end well for Bob, but he didn't have the moral strength to stop the charade when it got out of hand.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 07, 2016, 12:22:17 pm

Quote from: SL4P on January 07, 2016, 11:52:15 am

You know...
I took a look at the original Batteriser campaign on IGG, and while not excusing the crap that has come from Batteroo, they were only looking for $30K originally.  It was the gullible investors and backers that took the whole new level of Batteriser having to resort to questionable behaviour.

If they quietly returned the backer funds to IGG, then bend over like 'Probes' the monkey... the VC investors can do whatever they want.  It can't end well for Bob, but he didn't have the moral strength to stop the charade when it got out of hand.

Their GPS video has a link to the IndieGoGo campaign: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c)

If the GPS video is a deliberate fraud then the IndieGoGo campaign is also a deliberate fraud (they're promoting the campaign using that video).

The GPS video is clearly fraudulent so let's not argue over the amount they were planning to steal...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 07, 2016, 02:00:24 pm

Hi,

I am sure that they set a small goal on IGG because:

1) They had already secured $1m for SK Telecom, although some of this $1m is 'in kind', meaning free rent, advice etc.

2) It sounds a lot better to say we were over subscribed by 10x on our original IGG campaign, rather setting the bar at $250K and saying we exceeded our goal by 1.2x

Additional backers joined the campaign after it was extended. This is why the number 1,316% funded.

The whole idea of the IGG was to create publicity.

I am sure that the Batteroo team does not have a long term plan to sell Batterisers, they want to sell the company.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daqq on January 07, 2016, 03:49:04 pm

Dave! They are onto ya! They know!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 07, 2016, 04:05:00 pm

They just keep throwing mud to divert suspicion away from themselves.  It's purely a defensive tactic - but it has sinister implications.  They run the risk of libel.

Then again, they may be actively whiteanting - just like the 'dislike' campaigns from Vietnam.  Who knows?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on January 07, 2016, 08:22:49 pm

 I really really want to see them at least make a few so that people can get their hands on one. It's one thing to intellectually know it's impossible to meet their claims, it's another to have the physical product and hook it up to test gear. Alas I fear there was never any intent to actually manufacturer and deliver a product here.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 07, 2016, 11:07:01 pm

Quote from: Brumby on January 07, 2016, 04:05:00 pm

They just keep throwing mud to divert suspicion away from themselves.  It's purely a defensive tactic - but it has sinister implications.  They run the risk of libel.

If I really wanted to I could sue Bob right now for libel for stating to a national newspaper (and continually via their official Facebook page, and also their "fan page") that I am paid by Duracell.
http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/batteriser-battery-life-extender-scam-or-saviour-20150915-gjmrql.html (http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/batteriser-battery-life-extender-scam-or-saviour-20150915-gjmrql.html)
And because I'm a public figure with a lot of reputation to lose, damages could be large. In fact, my reputation in the industry is my entire livelihood.
Bob is treading a very thin line with everything he does and says, he is being very foolish indeed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 07, 2016, 11:13:10 pm

Quote from: rrinker on January 07, 2016, 08:22:49 pm

I really really want to see them at least make a few so that people can get their hands on one. It's one thing to intellectually know it's impossible to meet their claims, it's another to have the physical product and hook it up to test gear.

They know very well the game is up the very instant they ship product. It will only take a day or two once shipping starts for the entire industry to know it's a complete crock, and a few weeks after that for there to be scores of controlled comparison tests on real products.
And ironically the very publications they chose to get them free marketing will now likely rip them to shreds once the data is in and bloggers post the results.
They did not count on the engineering community taking them to task, and it becoming the running joke of the entire industry. Oops.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on January 07, 2016, 11:15:28 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2015, 04:43:00 am

Of course they won't focus on other bloggers who have busted them either, I'm the poster boy  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: pickle9000 on January 07, 2016, 11:23:41 pm

Quote from: wilfred on January 07, 2016, 11:18:50 pm

Quote from: rrinker on January 07, 2016, 08:22:49 pm

I really really want to see them at least make a few so that people can get their hands on one. It's one thing to intellectually know it's impossible to meet their claims, it's another to have the physical product and hook it up to test gear. Alas I fear there was never any intent to actually manufacturer and deliver a product here.

It is enough to criticise the technology without speculating about their intent. You can't know that.

The intent is financial.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 08, 2016, 12:46:26 am

Quote from: wilfred on January 07, 2016, 11:18:50 pm

It is enough to criticise the technology without speculating about their intent. You can't know that.

I don't actually know what their goal is/was but I know it's fraudulent and I know it's about money.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on January 08, 2016, 12:50:53 am

It's always about the money.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on January 08, 2016, 02:12:18 am

 OK, perhaps they did intend to make and distribute 'something'. Maybe just go for the placebo effect. There really aren't too many options to consider here, given that it can't work as advertised. Yes, always about the money - either take it and run, or produce  and sell a non-working product. The tin foil hat version is that they deliberately made sure the name was similar to Energizer AND they showed Energizer brand batteries in their demos to make sure they would be sued which gives them the out without the obvious fraud.
 bah, I need more popcorn.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 08, 2016, 02:35:31 am

Quote from: rrinker on January 08, 2016, 02:12:18 am

The tin foil hat version is that they deliberately made sure the name was similar to Energizer AND they showed Energizer brand batteries in their demos to make sure they would be sued which gives them the out without the obvious fraud.

Why bother in the first place, then?  That would make no sense...

No, they were planning on making money, otherwise they wouldn't have started this ridiculous venture in the first place.  I'm with those that think they were hoping to sell the whole concept and company to some sucker by whipping up a bunch of hoopla and making more money than they spent generating said hoopla.

It's just not likely to work out that way for them....  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on January 08, 2016, 02:47:25 am

Quote from: drussell on January 08, 2016, 02:35:31 am

No, they were planning on making money, otherwise they wouldn't have started this ridiculous venture in the first place.  I'm with those that think they were hoping to sell the whole concept and company to some sucker by whipping up a bunch of hoopla and making more money than they spent generating said hoopla.

Yes, they hoped to dump this turd of a product onto some unsuspecting buyer.

To quote Dave, "fail!"  :-DD :-DD :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on January 08, 2016, 05:57:40 am

Quote from: jippie on December 27, 2015, 02:19:41 pm

Quote from: PeterL on December 27, 2015, 01:54:51 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=189833;image)

They do have a lot of guts to promote their product with medicial / life support devices like "heart monitors" and "emergency equipment"  :-\

Given how many devices say "This is NOT for use in life-saving medical equipment and may not be used in such." as a CYA measure, I'm amazed they'd make that claim. If you promote something for use in medical devices the FDA is going to want to have a chat with you. And if it ever fails...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on January 08, 2016, 06:56:42 am

They cannot ship anything until they find some excuses for a reduced output (~200mA) for their AA sleeve. Even then, that would come at a huge cost, with little prospect of further orders, bankrupting Batteroo Inc anyway. So I think they will fold shortly, holding on to as much cash as legally possible.
What I find the most bizarre in this business, is that a venture capital firm thought it was a good idea to fund such an evidently flawed product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on January 08, 2016, 07:13:06 am

I ate the chips...... :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 08, 2016, 07:57:46 am

Quote from: drussell on January 08, 2016, 02:35:31 am

Quote from: rrinker on January 08, 2016, 02:12:18 am

The tin foil hat version is that they deliberately made sure the name was similar to Energizer AND they showed Energizer brand batteries in their demos to make sure they would be sued which gives them the out without the obvious fraud.

Why bother in the first place, then?  That would make no sense...

Exactly. As usual, tin foil hat ideas are just that.

Quote

No, they were planning on making money, otherwise they wouldn't have started this ridiculous venture in the first place.  I'm with those that think they were hoping to sell the whole concept and company to some sucker by whipping up a bunch of hoopla and making more money than they spent generating said hoopla.

Batteroo was formed just after Bob got the arse from his former employer. He was obviously looking for a new company to build. And almost always, people like this dream about flipping the company for a huge pay day.

Quote

It's just not likely to work out that way for them....  :popcorn:

No company would dare touch them. Almost certainly failed patents and losing their trademark. The only out is to change their name, ship a "working" product and get that magical Walmart/K-Mart order before the VC's pull the plug on funding. But even then a prospective company looking to buy would want to see continued sales figures. The killer is those patents though, they relied on those for the company to be worth something.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on January 08, 2016, 08:07:44 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 07, 2016, 11:07:01 pm

If I really wanted to I could sue Bob right now for libel for stating to a national newspaper ... that I am paid by Duracell...

Your other boss, Energizer, already sues them :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 08, 2016, 10:25:12 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on January 08, 2016, 09:32:28 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on January 08, 2016, 07:13:06 am

I ate the chips...... :popcorn:

Hey, this is a popcorn place. Find another forum for chips eaters!   :)

You misunderstood, he is the one that ate the production of the 1.5A chip that bater-ooly is waiting from the China distributor!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on January 09, 2016, 12:43:52 am

I wonder how the new ECO Usbcell LiPo USB rechargeable battery at CES is going to affect their campaign.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/3020072/hardware/the-eco-usbcell-is-the-slickest-rechargeable-aa-battery-youve-ever-seen.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/3020072/hardware/the-eco-usbcell-is-the-slickest-rechargeable-aa-battery-youve-ever-seen.html)

4 batteries for $20, although at best buy they are about $30 for the 4 pack.

Didn't look at the specs in detail yet, but they are real and already available.

AA specs pulled from Best Buy page
500 charging cyles.
1040 milliampere hours
UL Listed
1.5 volts
Charging time 2 hours. (probably to 90%)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 09, 2016, 03:39:53 am

Quote from: miguelvp on January 09, 2016, 12:43:52 am

Didn't look at the specs in detail yet, but they are real and already available.
...
1040 milliampere hours

So, that's less than half of the capacity of a typical low-grade NiMH AA cell.... 

Good ones are more like 2500-3000 mAh per cell.  Not exactly high capacity when you give up a good portion of your cell volume for a USB type A connector and charging circuitry.  A novel idea, perhaps, but not really a very good capacity spec. for the "ease of charging" tradeoff.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on January 09, 2016, 04:09:36 am

Yup, no match for an Eneloop

the AAA is about 450 mAh which is at the low end of NiMH as well.

The only thing I can see is that this is convenient as you stated because you don't have to hunt for your charger, just plug it on some USB port.

They are quoting 500 charges but is a LiPo so I wonder if they are being conservative?

But apparently they did make an impact at CES (well by the media present there)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 09, 2016, 04:35:47 am

Quote from: miguelvp on January 09, 2016, 04:09:36 am

But apparently they did make an impact at CES (well by the media present there)

You mean that "media", those same kind of folks who blindly hyped the Batteriser as the greatest thing since sliced bread without a second though or any kind of critical analysis or even rational thinking whatsoever?  :)

I will admit that this product is at least, what, 8X better thought out than a Batteriser but, to put it bluntly, the media wonders why people (well, at least those with a smidgen more awareness than the average Joe) don't trust pretty much anything they say without some kind of pause and retrospective or critical anaylsys...  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: free_electron on January 09, 2016, 05:17:39 am

Quote from: Nerull on January 08, 2016, 05:57:40 am

Quote from: jippie on December 27, 2015, 02:19:41 pm

Quote from: PeterL on December 27, 2015, 01:54:51 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=189833;image)

They do have a lot of guts to promote their product with medicial / life support devices like "heart monitors" and "emergency equipment"  :-\

Given how many devices say "This is NOT for use in life-saving medical equipment and may not be used in such." as a CYA measure, I'm amazed they'd make that claim. If you promote something for use in medical devices the FDA is going to want to have a chat with you. And if it ever fails...

1300 mA continuous and 4500 transient ?!?!? with a booster ? what do they suck from that battery ? and what is the coil current in that thing ?  somoebody has been eating mushrooms ( or rather, smoked them )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on January 09, 2016, 05:26:09 am

Quote from: drussell on January 09, 2016, 04:35:47 am

Quote from: miguelvp on January 09, 2016, 04:09:36 am

But apparently they did make an impact at CES (well by the media present there)

You mean that "media", those same kind of folks who blindly hyped the Batteriser as the greatest thing since sliced bread without a second though or any kind of critical analysis or even rational thinking whatsoever?  :)

I will admit that this product is at least, what, 8X better thought out than a Batteriser but, to put it bluntly, the media wonders why people (well, at least those with a smidgen more awareness than the average Joe) don't trust pretty much anything they say without some kind of pause and retrospective or critical anaylsys...  :palm:

Exactly why I mentioned in parenthesis that it was the media hyping it ;)

Eneloops can be charge 500 cycles as well and some versions way more than that.

I guess this is the price to pay for the free internet press, real reporting is dying a slow death.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: crispy_tofu on January 09, 2016, 07:23:51 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 07, 2016, 11:07:01 pm

If I really wanted to I could sue Bob right now for libel for stating to a national newspaper (and continually via their official Facebook page, and also their "fan page") that I am paid by Duracell.

Maybe they work for Duracell, what with this battery on their home page that looks vaguely familiar...
(http://www.batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/how_it_works02.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 09, 2016, 09:18:20 am

Quote from: drussell on January 09, 2016, 04:35:47 am

You mean that "media", those same kind of folks who blindly hyped the Batteriser as the greatest thing since sliced bread without a second though or any kind of critical analysis or even rational thinking whatsoever?  :)

Did a single one of the media mention that the fixed 1.5V renders every products battery gauge useless?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 09, 2016, 10:54:11 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 09, 2016, 09:18:20 am

Did a single one of the media mention that the fixed 1.5V renders every products battery gauge useless?

Not that I saw, anyway...  The vast majority of media coverage read like a regurgitated press release.  The local news here even did what I would call a "newsvertisement" that sounded just like a Batteroo video!  :palm:

That's the main reason I started to really follow this whole debacle.  I couldn't believe they would blindly spout this kind of garbage without a second thought and present it as NEWS!  I still can't wait for them all to have to eat their words.

The Sydney Morning Herald article is really one of the only ones that was even a little bit critical of their claims.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on January 09, 2016, 11:20:18 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 09, 2016, 09:18:20 am

Quote from: drussell on January 09, 2016, 04:35:47 am

You mean that "media", those same kind of folks who blindly hyped the Batteriser as the greatest thing since sliced bread without a second though or any kind of critical analysis or even rational thinking whatsoever?  :)

Did a single one of the media mention that the fixed 1.5V renders every products battery gauge useless?

No, the journalists stopped thinking at the very moment they saw the battery gauge jumping from "empty" to "full" when the batteriser was used with an empty battery, and they really didn't understand what they actually saw and its implications. Similarly, the Batteroo is desperately looking for an investor with more money than understanding.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 09, 2016, 12:00:07 pm

Quote from: Nerull on January 08, 2016, 05:57:40 am

Quote from: jippie on December 27, 2015, 02:19:41 pm

They do have a lot of guts to promote their product with medicial / life support devices like "heart monitors" and "emergency equipment"  :-\

Given how many devices say "This is NOT for use in life-saving medical equipment and may not be used in such." as a CYA measure, I'm amazed they'd make that claim. If you promote something for use in medical devices the FDA is going to want to have a chat with you. And if it ever fails...

.especially as even if it shipped, and worked, it would render any battery level indicator in the equipment useless - not a good idea when it's doing something important.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on January 09, 2016, 12:14:24 pm

(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac257/mikerj/the_batterator_zpswlv9bxpg.jpg)

Anyone else see a resemblance?  Dave should be careful, he's upsetting the Batterator...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on January 09, 2016, 06:15:10 pm

Quote from: mikerj on January 09, 2016, 12:14:24 pm

(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac257/mikerj/the_batterator_zpswlv9bxpg.jpg)

Anyone else see a resemblance?  Dave should be careful, he's upsetting the Batterator...

Haha, well found ;-)
Or is it the Terminiser? Probably a more appropriate name  >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on January 09, 2016, 07:08:31 pm

Quote from: Marcel_X on January 09, 2016, 06:15:10 pm

Or is it the Terminiser? Probably a more appropriate name  >:D

I'll Be Backeriser?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on January 09, 2016, 07:25:37 pm

Whatever the name, it's out there.  It can't be bargained with, it can't be reasoned with.  It doesn't feel pity or remorse or fear and it absolutely will not stop.

Not for a few weeks anyway.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on January 11, 2016, 09:00:19 am

IGG comments:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=192937;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=192939;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on January 11, 2016, 09:12:07 am

Facebook comments:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=192946;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=192948;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=192950;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 11, 2016, 10:33:17 am

I keep looking at this stuff - and this idea keeps bumping around in my head ... A fresh new name: Batterloser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on January 11, 2016, 10:38:22 am

This extended story reminds me of a certain 20th century play...
Perhaps we should rename Batteriser to 'Godot', and the Roopahvar brothers fit nicely into the main characters.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 11, 2016, 11:08:19 am

Has anyone in the IGG comments or Facebook page even mentioned the failure of the patent or Energizer Trademark dispute yet?
Even if Batteroo had the units ready to ship, and wanted to ship, they probably can't due to the Trademark dispute.
I'm surprised they haven't come out with a "we are being attacked by "big battery", here is the proof, they are tying our hands, so things are on hold until it can be sorted out" notice.
Not only is the "big battery" Trademark dispute marketing gold, it's the perfect opportunity to buy themselves as much time as they need.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on January 11, 2016, 11:18:45 am

There where some comments at Facebook, but they got deleted:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3960/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3960/)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3975/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3975/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 11, 2016, 12:57:48 pm

Quote from: Barny on January 11, 2016, 11:18:45 am

There where some comments at Facebook, but they got deleted:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3960/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3960/)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3975/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3975/)

So it's clear they don't want to tell anyone. The question now is why?
As mentioned, I see only upside for them in this.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on January 11, 2016, 01:11:20 pm

Quote

So it's clear they don't want to tell anyone. The question now is why?
As mentioned, I see only upside for them in this.

When a perfect exit strategy is at hand, there is less reason to use it before collecting all the additional moneys possible.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 11, 2016, 01:23:33 pm

I was also trying to work out why the delay - but it seems I couldn't see the wood for the trees...

Quote from: onlooker on January 11, 2016, 01:11:20 pm

When a perfect exit strategy is at hand, there is less reason to use it before collecting all the additional moneys possible.

How obvious was that answer.

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on January 11, 2016, 02:32:05 pm

You know, earlier I was thinking about boost converters and it occurs to me that trying to boost <1V to 1.5V is kind of dumb. Why not 1.2V? Pretty much everything will run off NiMh cells which run at that voltage... It would be more efficient and allow them to generate more current.

To do this, they could use a boost converter that operates in "pass through" mode. By that I mean when the battery is new (~1.5V) the boost converter doesn't do anything; the MOSFET simply passes the voltage straight through until the battery discharges to a certain point (~1.2V), then it starts operating to keep the output at that level.

I know TI make some boost chips that do this. I've used one designed for LIon batteries (passes from 4.2V to 3.7V then boosts) and they work really well.

I can't think of a reason that wouldn't be the ideal way to implement a product like this... Sure it's not as flashy ("Look, the dead battery is now full!") but it would a actually work.


Sent from my Smartphone

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on January 11, 2016, 04:04:41 pm

Question:  The IGG mugs are just "backers", putting money into a project, and thus not legally entitled to receive an actual project.  BUT, what about the mugs who have pre-ordered?  Surely that is a straightforward purchase, will they be legally entitled to a full refund?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 11, 2016, 05:10:43 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 11, 2016, 11:08:19 am

Has anyone in the IGG comments or Facebook page even mentioned the failure of the patent or Energizer Trademark dispute yet?

I have. Looks like my comment vanished this week.


PS: "New campaign video"...?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=192939;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on January 11, 2016, 07:14:24 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 11, 2016, 05:10:43 pm

PS: "New campaign video"...?

Yes I noticed too, the main video on the (closed) Indigogo page has changed. In contrast to earlier versions it is very clear to see now that the batterised batteries need some slight force to be pushed into the keyboard, which means it'll cost quite some effort to get them out. It shows several (uncoated, or clear coating) batterisers being inserted in couple product. Showing nice marketing wall posters; blahdibla; Warren (KMart) Flick explaining blahdibla. 15e9 batteries can reach to the moon and back, blahdibla...

Nothing new.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 12, 2016, 12:01:06 am

Quote from: Delta on January 11, 2016, 04:04:41 pm

BUT, what about the mugs who have pre-ordered?  Surely that is a straightforward purchase, will they be legally entitled to a full refund?

Yes, but will get it only if:
a) Batteroo are pro-active enough to give it to them
or
b) They kick up a stink about it.

I'd bet that their website pre-orders are bugger-all anyway.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 12, 2016, 12:07:09 am

The next update will of course include the obligatory "well earned xmas break" message, and "we are now hard back at work delivering the best possible quality product for you".
And if they hang out long enough, the good'ol reliable Chinese new year is Feb 8th-15th or so  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on January 12, 2016, 01:43:16 am

Quote from: SL4P on January 11, 2016, 10:38:22 am

This extended story reminds me of a certain 20th century play...
Perhaps we should rename Batteriser to 'Godot', and the Roopahvar brothers fit nicely into the main characters.

:-DD "a tragicomedy in two acts" - The uncertainty of the reality they are in is definitely a common theme. (one of my fave playwrights btw)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on January 12, 2016, 02:58:58 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 11, 2016, 12:57:48 pm

Quote from: Barny on January 11, 2016, 11:18:45 am

There where some comments at Facebook, but they got deleted:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3960/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3960/)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3975/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3975/)

So it's clear they don't want to tell anyone. The question now is why?
As mentioned, I see only upside for them in this.

There is a PR upside, but a huge downside from the original goal of selling an infant company. Businesses with active lawsuits against them rank somewhere below gonorrhea and high-level radioactive waste on the marketability scale. As soon as Batteroo announces the legal action publicly, they are committed to ride the ship to the bottom.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on January 12, 2016, 03:39:03 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on January 12, 2016, 02:58:58 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 11, 2016, 12:57:48 pm

Quote from: Barny on January 11, 2016, 11:18:45 am

There where some comments at Facebook, but they got deleted:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3960/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3960/)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3975/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/3975/)

So it's clear they don't want to tell anyone. The question now is why?
As mentioned, I see only upside for them in this.

There is a PR upside, but a huge downside from the original goal of selling an infant company. Businesses with active lawsuits against them rank somewhere below gonorrhea and high-level radioactive waste on the marketability scale. As soon as Batteroo announces the legal action publicly, they are committed to ride the ship to the bottom.

The question is... who or what will sink it? Who is going to be that magical iceberg will hit?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 12, 2016, 03:52:44 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on January 12, 2016, 02:58:58 am

There is a PR upside, but a huge downside from the original goal of selling an infant company.
Businesses with active lawsuits against them rank somewhere below gonorrhea and high-level radioactive waste on the marketability scale. As soon as Batteroo announces the legal action publicly, they are committed to ride the ship to the bottom.

Indeed. But anyone looking to buy the company is already going to know their patent is failing, and their trademark is under attack.
Going public with "big battery" as an excuse for the delays will keep Joe Public from circling with pitch forks. It might even rally them into support mode.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bills on January 12, 2016, 04:24:28 am

gee wiz it is  over  people  got ripped off  get over it .wish we could do better .
we knew  that this would the outcome .

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 12, 2016, 05:00:47 am

Quote from: bills on January 12, 2016, 04:24:28 am

gee wiz it is  over  people  got ripped off  get over it .

The show has only just begun!  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on January 12, 2016, 05:23:42 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 12, 2016, 03:52:44 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on January 12, 2016, 02:58:58 am

There is a PR upside, but a huge downside from the original goal of selling an infant company.
Businesses with active lawsuits against them rank somewhere below gonorrhea and high-level radioactive waste on the marketability scale. As soon as Batteroo announces the legal action publicly, they are committed to ride the ship to the bottom.

Indeed. But anyone looking to buy the company is already going to know their patent is failing, and their trademark is under attack.
Going public with "big battery" as an excuse for the delays will keep Joe Public from circling with pitch forks. It might even rally them into support mode.

I think you are right about the marketing portion, I just think that they will be spinning the lawsuit to pitch to the last, potential investors that may have given them slip at a cocktail party.  More investment is likely the only hope as I still feel that they are hopelessly undercapitalized for their commitments. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 12, 2016, 05:35:12 am

Quote from: ccs46 on January 12, 2016, 03:39:03 am

The question is... who or what will sink it? Who is going to be that magical iceberg will hit?

What iceberg?  Who's sinking?

The orchestra's still playing, so everything must be ok!   ;)


Just one question .... where are the lifeboats?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on January 12, 2016, 09:35:15 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 12, 2016, 05:35:12 am

Quote from: ccs46 on January 12, 2016, 03:39:03 am

The question is... who or what will sink it? Who is going to be that magical iceberg will hit?

What iceberg?  Who's sinking?

The orchestra's still playing, so everything must be ok!   ;)


Just one question .... where are the lifeboats?

And they're busy re-arranging the deckchairs...

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 12, 2016, 10:21:11 am

Quote from: timb on January 11, 2016, 02:32:05 pm

You know, earlier I was thinking about boost converters and it occurs to me that trying to boost <1V to 1.5V is kind of dumb. Why not 1.2V? Pretty much everything will run off NiMh cells which run at that voltage... It would be more efficient and allow them to generate more current.

Sounds like a good idea, but Batteriser says many devices stop working below 1.35 V :) But I guess the real reason is the target audience. Most are non-technical people and they can verify, that the Apple keyboard shows 100% again, when a dead battery is used with the Batteriser sleeve. Cool, I will recommend this product. They don't compare how long a device actually runs with and without the Batteriser, with fresh batteries and the same test conditions.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 12, 2016, 11:38:55 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 12, 2016, 10:21:11 am

Most are non-technical people and they can verify, that the Apple keyboard shows 100% again, when a dead battery is used with the Batteriser sleeve. Cool, I will recommend this product. They don't compare how long a device actually runs with and without the Batteriser, with fresh batteries and the same test conditions.

I disagree. I think many people will be so excited about owning a world-changing technology they'll instantly grab a flashlight (or whatever) and test how long it runs. They've drunk the advertising kool-aid, they'll be expecting it to go for at least a week.

The results will be impossible to misinterpret - it doesn't work!  :wtf:

A few will do it a second time with a stopwatch and figure out that Batteriser gives less battery life than before.

This is such an obvious experiment that anybody with a working brain can think of it. It's also an experiment that bloggers will love to do.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 12, 2016, 12:45:10 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 12, 2016, 11:38:55 am

This is such an obvious experiment that anybody with a working brain can think of it. It's also an experiment that bloggers will love to do.

Within a week or two of shipping, there will be a huge database of products with before/after testing.
It needs to be done right though.
The real test is not so much with and without batteriser, it's without batteriser, and then how much extra time the product gets with the Batteriser on those "dead" batteries.
This is the when their whole 800% BS will come crashing down. It'll be a few 10's of percent at best with most products, with many (majority?) in the single digit percentage if not negative.
And that's if the product even works reliably and fits, which they have had problems on the prototype units with.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on January 12, 2016, 12:53:18 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 12, 2016, 11:38:55 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 12, 2016, 10:21:11 am

Most are non-technical people and they can verify, that the Apple keyboard shows 100% again, when a dead battery is used with the Batteriser sleeve. Cool, I will recommend this product. They don't compare how long a device actually runs with and without the Batteriser, with fresh batteries and the same test conditions.

I disagree. I think many people will be so excited about owning a world-changing technology they'll instantly grab a flashlight (or whatever) and test how long it runs. They've drunk the advertising kool-aid, they'll be expecting it to go for at least a week.

And I have to disagree with that.  The general public (not the engineering crowd) would put these into their remotes, clocks, cordless mice, whatever and then convince themselves that they worked because batteries in those things don't die in a timeframe that's easily measurable.  More importantly, they will convince themselves that they actually do work because they spent good money of them.  These are probably the same people that continually buy into the infomercial crap on TV.  I would be highly surprised if any of them do any kind of quantitative measurements at all.  Why would they?  They saw the video where the GPS unit lasted 5 times as long!  There's your proof.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on January 12, 2016, 12:54:35 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 12, 2016, 12:45:10 pm

Within a week or two of shipping, there will be a huge database of products with before/after testing.
It needs to be done right though.
The real test is not so much with and without batteriser, it's without batteriser, and then how much extra time the product gets with the Batteriser on those "dead" batteries.
This is the when their whole 800% BS will come crashing down. It'll be a few 10's of percent at best with most products, with many (majority?) in the single digit percentage if not negative.
And that's if the product even works reliably and fits, which they have had problems on the prototype units with.

How can it be negative? If the bare battery is "dead" and it still doesn't work any longer with the batteriser attached, that would be 0% at worst, but not negative.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 12, 2016, 01:04:30 pm

Quote from: McBryce on January 12, 2016, 12:54:35 pm

How can it be negative? If the bare battery is "dead" and it still doesn't work any longer with the batteriser attached, that would be 0% at worst, but not negative.

Doh, yeah, I was thinking of the with/without test.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on January 12, 2016, 01:09:05 pm

Quote from: Brumby on January 12, 2016, 05:35:12 am

What iceberg?  Who's sinking?
The orchestra's still playing, so everything must be ok!   ;)
Just one question .... where are the lifeboats?

You give batteriser too much credit, this is not a titanic company, more an inflatable rowingboat which is leaking air and making water  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on January 12, 2016, 01:34:20 pm

Quote from: Brumby on January 12, 2016, 05:35:12 am

Quote from: ccs46 on January 12, 2016, 03:39:03 am

The question is... who or what will sink it? Who is going to be that magical iceberg will hit?

What iceberg?  Who's sinking?

The orchestra's still playing, so everything must be ok!   ;)


Just one question .... where are the lifeboats?

And there may not be enough, someone is going to the bottom.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 12, 2016, 01:54:44 pm

Quote from: lpickup on January 12, 2016, 12:53:18 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 12, 2016, 11:38:55 am

I disagree. I think many people will be so excited about owning a world-changing technology they'll instantly grab a flashlight (or whatever) and test how long it runs. They've drunk the advertising kool-aid, they'll be expecting it to go for at least a week.

And I have to disagree with that.  The general public (not the engineering crowd) would put these into their remotes, clocks, cordless mice, whatever and then convince themselves that they worked because batteries in those things don't die in a timeframe that's easily measurable.

And I disagree. A lot of Batterisers will have been bought by bloggers and people who genuinely get through a lot of batteries.

Quote from: lpickup on January 12, 2016, 12:53:18 pm

More importantly, they will convince themselves that they actually do work because they spent good money of them.  These are probably the same people that continually buy into the infomercial crap on TV.  I would be highly surprised if any of them do any kind of quantitative measurements at all.  Why would they?  They saw the video where the GPS unit lasted 5 times as long!  There's your proof.

Batteriser is much more objective than abdominal exercisers, etc. With most infomercial products it's very easy for people to blame themselves for not following the rules, not doing it every day, etc.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on January 12, 2016, 02:15:21 pm

Quote from: McBryce on January 12, 2016, 12:54:35 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 12, 2016, 12:45:10 pm

Within a week or two of shipping, there will be a huge database of products with before/after testing.
It needs to be done right though.
The real test is not so much with and without batteriser, it's without batteriser, and then how much extra time the product gets with the Batteriser on those "dead" batteries.
This is the when their whole 800% BS will come crashing down. It'll be a few 10's of percent at best with most products, with many (majority?) in the single digit percentage if not negative.
And that's if the product even works reliably and fits, which they have had problems on the prototype units with.

How can it be negative? If the bare battery is "dead" and it still doesn't work any longer with the batteriser attached, that would be 0% at worst, but not negative.

McBryce.

But only, when you put the Butteriser on emty cells.
If you put the Butteriser on fresh cells, there is a high chance to get negative.
Specially if you use it in an remote, clock or other low power device.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on January 12, 2016, 02:40:19 pm

Quote from: Barny on January 12, 2016, 02:15:21 pm

Quote from: McBryce on January 12, 2016, 12:54:35 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 12, 2016, 12:45:10 pm

Within a week or two of shipping, there will be a huge database of products with before/after testing.
It needs to be done right though.
The real test is not so much with and without batteriser, it's without batteriser, and then how much extra time the product gets with the Batteriser on those "dead" batteries.
This is the when their whole 800% BS will come crashing down. It'll be a few 10's of percent at best with most products, with many (majority?) in the single digit percentage if not negative.
And that's if the product even works reliably and fits, which they have had problems on the prototype units with.

How can it be negative? If the bare battery is "dead" and it still doesn't work any longer with the batteriser attached, that would be 0% at worst, but not negative.

McBryce.

But only, when you put the Butteriser on emty cells.
If you put the Butteriser on fresh cells, there is a high chance to get negative.
Specially if you use it in an remote, clock or other low power device.

Yes, and now read again what Dave said: "The real test is not so much with and without batteriser, it's without batteriser, and then how much extra time the product gets with the Batteriser on those "dead" batteries.
This is the when their whole 800% BS will come crashing down. It'll be a few 10's of percent at best with most products, with many (majority?) in the single digit percentage if not negative."

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on January 12, 2016, 02:52:59 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 12, 2016, 01:54:44 pm

And I disagree. A lot of Batterisers will have been bought by bloggers and people who genuinely get through a lot of batteries.

If there are even 1000 bloggers out of the 7400 or so that backed the project I would be highly surprised.  I think the number of bloggers and people that bought it to debunk it is probably in the 50-100 range.  I have to think that people that are intelligent and motivated enough to do an A-B comparison (but didn't buy into it specifically to debunk it) would see that the product was BS in the first place and not waste their money.  But hey, I'm just speculating here.  I could be completely wrong.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on January 12, 2016, 04:00:43 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 12, 2016, 12:07:09 am

The next update will of course include the obligatory "well earned xmas break" message, and "we are now hard back at work delivering the best possible quality product for you".
And if they hang out long enough, the good'ol reliable Chinese new year is Feb 8th-15th or so  :-+

And if they can last beyond mid Feb, the next excuse will probably be about a shortage of staff at the factory after Chinese New Year because workers didn't return after visiting their home town.  Seen these excuses trotted out time and time again...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 12, 2016, 04:13:10 pm

Quote from: lpickup on January 12, 2016, 02:52:59 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 12, 2016, 01:54:44 pm

And I disagree. A lot of Batterisers will have been bought by bloggers and people who genuinely get through a lot of batteries.

If there are even 1000 bloggers out of the 7400 or so that backed the project I would be highly surprised.  I think the number of bloggers and people that bought it to debunk it is probably in the 50-100 range.  I have to think that people that are intelligent and motivated enough to do an A-B comparison (but didn't buy into it specifically to debunk it) would see that the product was BS in the first place and not waste their money.  But hey, I'm just speculating here.  I could be completely wrong.

It's moot. They aren't going to deliver anything. "Delivery" isn't in the plan.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on January 12, 2016, 05:43:12 pm

Quote from: McBryce on January 12, 2016, 02:40:19 pm

Yes, and now read again what Dave said: "The real test is not so much with and without batteriser, it's without batteriser, and then how much extra time the product gets with the Batteriser on those "dead" batteries.
This is the when their whole 800% BS will come crashing down. It'll be a few 10's of percent at best with most products, with many (majority?) in the single digit percentage if not negative."

McBryce.

If you get a low battery warning, fit batterisers and the product no longer works that would be a negative gain wouldn't it?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on January 12, 2016, 06:30:25 pm

Guys is it me getting old or were the much more pages on this thread, like 260 instead of 160?
 :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on January 12, 2016, 06:46:19 pm

Quote from: Chipguy on January 12, 2016, 06:30:25 pm

Guys is it me getting old or were the much more pages on this thread, like 260 instead of 160?
 :-//

Depends on browser settings I guess. I use the tapatalk app and it shows 408 pages :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on January 12, 2016, 06:58:40 pm

Quote from: meeder on January 12, 2016, 06:46:19 pm

Quote from: Chipguy on January 12, 2016, 06:30:25 pm

Guys is it me getting old or were the much more pages on this thread, like 260 instead of 160?
 :-//

Depends on browser settings I guess. I use the tapatalk app and it shows 408 pages :)

yup, the web based forum (with default posts-per-page setting) was up to 292, and now we are at 160.  Guess Dave or another mod had a clearout

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on January 12, 2016, 07:03:39 pm

Quote from: Chipguy on January 12, 2016, 06:30:25 pm

Guys is it me getting old or were the much more pages on this thread, like 260 instead of 160?
 :-//

Earlier today I was at page 263, now I'm at page 163, it's not you.

Maybe the server got batterised, and we're tapping into the 80% unused posts per page?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on January 12, 2016, 07:04:45 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on January 12, 2016, 06:58:40 pm

yup, the web based forum (with default posts-per-page setting) was up to 292, and now we are at 160.  Guess Dave or another mod had a clearout

or the Batteroo guys somehow broke in and did their post deletion trick!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on January 12, 2016, 07:06:51 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on January 12, 2016, 06:58:40 pm

Quote from: meeder on January 12, 2016, 06:46:19 pm

Quote from: Chipguy on January 12, 2016, 06:30:25 pm

Guys is it me getting old or were the much more pages on this thread, like 260 instead of 160?
 :-//

Depends on browser settings I guess. I use the tapatalk app and it shows 408 pages :)

yup, the web based forum (with default posts-per-page setting) was up to 292, and now we are at 160.  Guess Dave or another mod had a clearout

25 messages per page times 163 pages makes 4075 messages.
This does about match the reply number in the header of each message.
Only explaination is that the pages contained 15 messages before, now 25.
I never noticed, and they don't look too long to me as they are now.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on January 12, 2016, 07:08:12 pm

Quote from: Chipguy on January 12, 2016, 07:06:51 pm

Only explaination is that the pages contained 15 messages before, now 25.

Yep, the default was recently changed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on January 12, 2016, 07:10:40 pm

Quote from: PA0PBZ on January 12, 2016, 07:08:12 pm

Quote from: Chipguy on January 12, 2016, 07:06:51 pm

Only explaination is that the pages contained 15 messages before, now 25.

Yep, the default was recently changed.

Yup, my conclusion as well. The number of replies fit the number of messages times the number of pages.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 12, 2016, 08:27:33 pm

Quote from: Chipguy on January 12, 2016, 07:06:51 pm

25 messages per page times 163 pages makes 4075 messages.
This does about match the reply number in the header of each message.
Only explaination is that the pages contained 15 messages before, now 25.

Correct. The setting was changed in the forum software, as mentioned in another thread. No posts have been deleted.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on January 12, 2016, 11:47:03 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 12, 2016, 08:27:33 pm

Quote from: Chipguy on January 12, 2016, 07:06:51 pm

25 messages per page times 163 pages makes 4075 messages.
This does about match the reply number in the header of each message.
Only explaination is that the pages contained 15 messages before, now 25.

Correct. The setting was changed in the forum software, as mentioned in another thread. No posts have been deleted.

Boooooooo!

Don't let facts and reality get in the way of a good conspiracy theory!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on January 13, 2016, 09:17:56 am

Quote from: mikerj on January 12, 2016, 05:43:12 pm

Quote from: McBryce on January 12, 2016, 02:40:19 pm

Yes, and now read again what Dave said: "The real test is not so much with and without batteriser, it's without batteriser, and then how much extra time the product gets with the Batteriser on those "dead" batteries.
This is the when their whole 800% BS will come crashing down. It'll be a few 10's of percent at best with most products, with many (majority?) in the single digit percentage if not negative."

McBryce.

If you get a low battery warning, fit batterisers and the product no longer works that would be a negative gain wouldn't it?

Yes, but low battery isn't dead. Dead is when the device no longer turns on.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on January 13, 2016, 12:29:21 pm

Quote from: McBryce on January 13, 2016, 09:17:56 am

Yes, but low battery isn't dead. Dead is when the device no longer turns on.

McBryce.

But many people would change the batteries at that point.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on January 13, 2016, 12:54:17 pm

Of course, but that's not what Dave suggested as a sensible test of the Batterisers capabilities. Which is what I was originally commenting on.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on January 13, 2016, 01:34:58 pm

Quick roundup:

Stinging comments on Facebook:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=193491;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=193493;image)

More unrest on IGG:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=193495;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daqq on January 13, 2016, 02:45:56 pm

The shitstorm nears... I'll get out my special popcorn.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 13, 2016, 02:48:32 pm

I needed a top-up...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v702/brumbymg/AAA/Popcorn-3D.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/brumbymg/media/AAA/Popcorn-3D.jpg.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on January 13, 2016, 02:53:19 pm

Quote from: daqq on January 13, 2016, 02:45:56 pm

The shitstorm nears... I'll get out my special popcorn.

The suspense is killing me  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on January 13, 2016, 03:40:55 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 12, 2016, 12:45:10 pm

...
And that's if the product even works reliably and fits, which they have had problems on the prototype units with.

This will be a long list.
Unable to put in, unable to get out, folded and broken, isolation got off, fire, uncompatible DCDC-DCDC converters,...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on January 13, 2016, 03:47:18 pm

I just watched their recent IGG promo video and think they could get a miniaturisation patent application accepted as the PCB on this latest version is so incredibly thin that it has turned transparent and can't be detected by the camera :palm:

The sleeves read Batteroo now so this may side-step the trademark issue. Bobby's hiding this fact with his fingers when showing the sleeve to camera but it can be seen in other shots. And then there are the shots showing it fitted backwards, perhaps marketing was confused by the transparent PCB.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 13, 2016, 04:39:14 pm

Where does this pics come from?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on January 13, 2016, 04:47:09 pm

They are screen grabs from the video at: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/ (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 13, 2016, 05:00:14 pm

Oh ok they are basically just some old prototypes we already saw in the previous version of the video, nothing new there

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on January 13, 2016, 05:16:44 pm

Ah ok. I read further up this was a new campaign video and hadn't seen the Batteroo sleeves before, so assumed they were new too. I should've guessed old footage would be recycled 8x.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on January 13, 2016, 05:57:49 pm

I'm going to need more popcorn!

None of their promotional photos (including the weird upside-down on the ceiling one) of their new red sleeves contain any detectable PCB either.  Its almost like they don't actually have any.......

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 13, 2016, 06:04:28 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on January 13, 2016, 05:57:49 pm

None of their promotional photos (including the weird upside-down on the ceiling one) of their new red sleeves contain any detectable PCB either.  Its almost like they don't actually have any.......

They've done the "Apple Keyboard" demo live. Somebody's seen one.

https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html (https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html)

(Although they couldn't get it to work when they tried it themselves and I'm not personally convinced the keyboard demo isn't done via a remote control in Bob's pocket).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on January 13, 2016, 06:07:43 pm

There's indeed not much electronics going on there:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=193535;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on January 13, 2016, 06:08:06 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 13, 2016, 06:04:28 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on January 13, 2016, 05:57:49 pm

None of their promotional photos (including the weird upside-down on the ceiling one) of their new red sleeves contain any detectable PCB either.  Its almost like they don't actually have any.......

They've done the "Apple Keyboard" demo live. Somebody's seen one.

https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html (https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html)

(Although they couldn't get it to work when they tried it themselves and I'm not personally convinced the keyboard demo isn't done via a remote control in Bob's pocket).

no I meant their promo photos of the RED sleeves, the ones used in the apple video are their prototype silver ones.  Take a good look at all the new design red sleeve photos - no PCBs as far as I can see?


EDIT: ahhh ok, I stand corrected, they have at least 2 red ones with a PCB

EDIT2: looking carefully at the photos and screengrabs of the silver ones, it looks like the PCB slides into two plastic, slotted mounts on either side of the + end, perhaps they have many sleeves but only 2 or 3 actual PCBs that they use in various photos, videos and whatnot

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on January 13, 2016, 06:13:45 pm

Quote from: PA0PBZ on January 13, 2016, 06:07:43 pm

There's indeed not much electronics going on there:

It works better without electronics. It is like the powerbalance :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on January 13, 2016, 06:20:28 pm

 Has anyone gone back and pulled the battery out of the Apple keyboard and verified it was the same, 'dead' one that they took out in the beginning? Some fairly basic sleight of hand and they could just be plugging in a fresh battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 13, 2016, 07:06:22 pm

Quote from: rrinker on January 13, 2016, 06:20:28 pm

Has anyone gone back and pulled the battery out of the Apple keyboard and verified it was the same, 'dead' one that they took out in the beginning? Some fairly basic sleight of hand and they could just be plugging in a fresh battery.

The entire PCB could be a fake. It seems very suspicious that Yahoo Makers couldn't get the Batteriser to work at all.

Quote

After Roohparvar successfully demonstrated the Batteriser prototype in his Apple keyboard, we tried it out in a regular flashlight and in a Bluetooth mouse. This time, though, it failed to make contact and power the devices.

How hard could it be to make it work? Why didn't Bob offer to help? :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on January 13, 2016, 08:37:01 pm

 Because he knew it was all a sham and there was nothing to demonstrate or make work.

Have they actually demonstrated it with something OTHER than the Apple keyboard? And isn't it they who are supplying this Apple keyboard each time?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 13, 2016, 09:20:11 pm

Quote from: rrinker on January 13, 2016, 08:37:01 pm

Have they actually demonstrated it with something OTHER than the Apple keyboard? And isn't it they who are supplying this Apple keyboard each time?

Not as far as we know.

(Hence my suspicion...)

A small 3V battery wouldn't be hard to hide in a keyboard. It could be as simple as: Take dead batteries out, slip insulating Batteriser sleeves over them, reinsert them, remember to flip the secret switch while you're handling the keyboard.

Would they really go as far as completely faking it? I don't know.

There's some big-name ex-CEOs on their board of directors these days. Surely not all of them are as lacking in morals as the Batteroo Brothers. Maybe none of them has ever bothered to ask questions, they just take Bob's word for it (over lunch).  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on January 13, 2016, 10:13:11 pm

You're thinking way to complicated. It would take 2 minutes to make a full screen powerpoint slide with a screenshot of the desktop with the battery display at 100%. No hacking required.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 13, 2016, 10:35:42 pm

Quote from: rrinker on January 13, 2016, 08:37:01 pm

Have they actually demonstrated it with something OTHER than the Apple keyboard? And isn't it they who are supplying this Apple keyboard each time?

Not publicly, no, not to anyone's knowledge.
Yahoo Makers saw it briefly working on the (presumably supplied by Batteroo) keyboard, but it did not work on anything else they tried.
I'm pretty sure Batteroo have not rigged the keyboard test, as all they are demoing is that it goes from 10% to 100% figure, and that's of course what a DC-DC converter will do.
I think they thing is just physically fiddly and has problem making contact, something that Batteroo themselves suggested in the Yahoo interview.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on January 13, 2016, 10:43:29 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 13, 2016, 09:20:11 pm

Quote from: rrinker on January 13, 2016, 08:37:01 pm

Have they actually demonstrated it with something OTHER than the Apple keyboard? And isn't it they who are supplying this Apple keyboard each time?

Not as far as we know.

(Hence my suspicion...)

A small 3V battery wouldn't be hard to hide in a keyboard. It could be as simple as: Take dead batteries out, slip insulating Batteriser sleeves over them, reinsert them, remember to flip the secret switch while you're handling the keyboard.

Would they really go as far as completely faking it? I don't know.

There's some big-name ex-CEOs on their board of directors these days. Surely not all of them are as lacking in morals as the Batteroo Brothers. Maybe none of them has ever bothered to ask questions, they just take Bob's word for it (over lunch).  :-//

I think it's the other way around...

They were bastarda, but now they are too stigmatized. Now they want their last scam to have a great retire.

It's the same like Amiga, Inc. & Genesis.

Amiga Inc. Packed 3.1 with lots of third party patches and sold an alpha Os with prototype overpriced hardware. But the recent AmigaOS 3.1 + some of the OS4 is amazing!

The last one were at least worked with some skilled terrorists and had government. Bill Buck and Raquel Velasco, they always posted in the forums as bbrv. Bill looked even more ADHD than me and coke addict,  Raquel was a hot mature woman and probably the evil manipulative mind.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 13, 2016, 10:46:57 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 13, 2016, 09:20:11 pm

Would they really go as far as completely faking it? I don't know.

Of course not.
I don't know why these conspiracy theories keep doing the rounds, you don't need them to explain what's happening here.

It's not rocket science to make something like this, it's just a DC-DC converter on the end of a battery, it's just a minimisation problem.
They clearly have a real functioning prototype that admittedly seems to have some connection reliability/fit issues which would be expected.
This is simply a case of a novel idea by serial entrepreneurs/inventors that were hoping would make them a fortune, so they go blindly into development only to find that the practical reality is that it's only mildly useful. They likely had the best of intentions.
But they have to persist, because that's what these serial entrepreneurs/inventors do, especially when they have taken investors money.
They did not expect a big backlash from the technical community, they thought they could just flip a half-arsed product to Walmart etc and no one would care.
They don't release technical performance data because they know very well it will prove that the thing can't perform as claimed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on January 13, 2016, 10:54:11 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 13, 2016, 10:46:57 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 13, 2016, 09:20:11 pm

Would they really go as far as completely faking it? I don't know.

Of course not.
I don't know why these conspiracy theories keep doing the rounds, you don't need them to explain what's happening here.

It's not rocket science to make something like this, it's just a DC-DC converter on the end of a battery, it's just a minimisation problem.
They clearly have a real functioning prototype that admittedly seems to have some connection reliability/fit issues which would be expected.
This is simply a case of a novel idea by serial entrepreneurs/inventors that were hoping would make them a fortune, so they go blindly into development only to find that the practical reality is that it's only mildly useful. They likely had the best of intentions.
But they have to persist, because that's what these serial entrepreneurs/inventors do, especially when they have taken investors money.
They did not expect a big backlash from the technical community, they thought they could just flip a half-arsed product to Walmart etc and no one would care.
They don't release technical performance data because they know very well it will prove that the thing can't perform as claimed.

You are very funny. Please don't lie to u anymore!

You have a dramatic arts degree and write humor scripts when you   aren't busy at electronics, your blondie or Sagan ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on January 13, 2016, 11:29:20 pm

Here's my pedantic conspiracy theory:

I have noticed that recently they are referring to "batteriser sleeves" rather than "batterisers" ("Your batteriser sleeves will be shipping ___________), the most recent images show only a sleeve, no PCB = they are planning to only deliver the SS sleeve!  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MikeW on January 13, 2016, 11:37:13 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 13, 2016, 10:46:57 pm

They likely had the best of intentions.

Quote from: EEVblog on January 13, 2016, 10:46:57 pm

they thought they could just flip a half-arsed product to Walmart etc and no one would care.

These two statements kinda contradict one another.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on January 13, 2016, 11:45:06 pm

Quote from: daqq on January 13, 2016, 02:45:56 pm

The shitstorm nears... I'll get out my special popcorn.

Whats so special about it? Is the corn kernels grown by nude virgins in the fields? Special type of seasoning.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on January 14, 2016, 12:07:42 am

Quote from: ccs46 on January 13, 2016, 11:45:06 pm

Quote from: daqq on January 13, 2016, 02:45:56 pm

The shitstorm nears... I'll get out my special popcorn.

Whats so special about it? Is the corn kernels grown by nude virgins in the fields? Special type of seasoning.

It's 800% better than other popcorn as tested and confirmed by a certified monkey.

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on January 14, 2016, 12:15:16 am

Quote from: Mr.B on January 14, 2016, 12:07:42 am

Quote from: ccs46 on January 13, 2016, 11:45:06 pm

Quote from: daqq on January 13, 2016, 02:45:56 pm

The shitstorm nears... I'll get out my special popcorn.

Whats so special about it? Is the corn kernels grown by nude virgins in the fields? Special type of seasoning.

It's 800% better than other popcorn as tested and confirmed by a certified monkey.

Does the butterier produce 800% more buttery popcorn?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on January 14, 2016, 12:18:39 am

Quote from: ccs46 on January 14, 2016, 12:15:16 am

Quote from: Mr.B on January 14, 2016, 12:07:42 am

Quote from: ccs46 on January 13, 2016, 11:45:06 pm

Quote from: daqq on January 13, 2016, 02:45:56 pm

The shitstorm nears... I'll get out my special popcorn.

Whats so special about it? Is the corn kernels grown by nude virgins in the fields? Special type of seasoning.

It's 800% better than other popcorn as tested and confirmed by a certified monkey.

Does the butterier produce 800% more buttery popcorn?

No, only New Zealand butter can do that.  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BradC on January 14, 2016, 10:36:09 am

Quote from: Mr.B on January 14, 2016, 12:18:39 am

No, only New Zealand butter can do that.  ;D

Baaaaaaterizer?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on January 14, 2016, 11:19:44 am

Another facebook purge has occurred !

So glad we get those screencaps :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 01:00:03 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 13, 2016, 07:06:22 pm

The entire PCB could be a fake. It seems very suspicious that Yahoo Makers couldn't get the Batteriser to work at all.

Quote from: EEVblog on January 13, 2016, 10:46:57 pm

I don't know why these conspiracy theories keep doing the rounds, ...

Because we saw no product, only a video and photoshop corrected images of a metal sleeve.
Because the guy that claims to have developed it, is a proven multiple liar.
Because the "miniaturisation problem" induces other problems that cannot result in "having a product"
Because what seems simple to you is not for him. He does not know the difference between charge and voltage.
Because we do not believe whatever your so-called high-respected "journalists" google makers "say they saw"
Because as long as there is no proven cure for AIDS, there is no cure for AIDS. Don't show me the bottle or the packaging.

Apart from this, the specs they mention to be "the product" simply cannot exist. You debunked it yourself.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 14, 2016, 01:21:53 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 01:00:03 pm

*snipped*
Apart from this, the specs they mention to be "the product" simply cannot exist. You debunked it yourself.

Give it a break, you keep harping on and on about this.
You are wrong.
Many people and journalists come to this thread to learn about what's happening and to get some engineering fact and professional comment. We don't want it to turn into conspiracy theory central.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 01:40:00 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 14, 2016, 01:21:53 pm

Give it a break, you keep harping on and on about this.
You are wrong.
Many people and journalists come to this thread to learn about what's happening and to get some engineering fact and professional comment. We don't want it to turn into conspiracy theory central.

Agree on some parts, the only thing I do not like is "you are wrong"
I would like to learn WHY "I am wrong", and what data you use to come to that conclusion.

Please give some info about your high-respected "journalists" that saw "the product".
You did not see "the product" yourself.
Those "journalists" you run after for some conspiracy reason, are the same kind of guys ar Roohpavar.
Good at the drawing table, not understanding the difference between charge and voltage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 14, 2016, 01:40:40 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 01:00:03 pm

Apart from this, the specs they mention to be "the product" simply cannot exist. You debunked it yourself.

Now you're just talkin' crazy talk!  :)

Of course the product can (and does) exist, it is a very simple concept which could be assembled by virtually anyone using off-the-shelf components!

It is simply not going to perform anywhere close to their claims!

Quote from: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 01:40:00 pm

Please give some info about your high-respected "journalists" that saw "the product".

This has been discussed multiple times before!

Please go back and actually read the thread rather than harping on the same busted ideas over and over again.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 01:43:14 pm

Quote from: drussell on January 14, 2016, 01:40:40 pm

Now you're just talkin' crazy talk!  :)

Of course the product can (and does) exist, it is a very simple concept which could be assembled by virtually anyone using off-the-shelf components!

It is simply not going to perform anywhere close to their claims!

It will be a boat that does not perform like the claims in staying above water.
That's no boat. It's a rock.

Get the basics, learn something about specs and product development before saying I talk crazy.
Not meeting specs=no product.
Not meeting legal laws=no product.

Quote from: drussell on January 14, 2016, 01:40:40 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 01:40:00 pm

Please give some info about your high-respected "journalists" that saw "the product".

This has been discussed multiple times before!

No it's not, you are wrong again, it always stopped with the story about those strange "high respected journalists"
Kids from 19 years old get no points, if they do not deliver a report with correct graphs and data.
The way Dave does himself: prooving the debunks with correct data and graphs, the setup measurement results in the video.

If Roohpavar comes up with some claim, and doesn't illustrate it, he's demonized. Well that's what he deserves.
But when those conspiracy "high-respected-journalists" come up with something, without ANY illustration....whoowhoo...

Quote from: drussell on January 14, 2016, 01:40:40 pm

Please go back and actually read the thread rather than harping on the same busted ideas over and over again.

correcting this guy's errors and assumptions could quickly become a full time job.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 14, 2016, 02:00:38 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 01:43:14 pm

It will be a boat that does not perform like the claims in staying above water, like the claims.
That's no boat.

That's a ridiculous analogy...  It is a DC-DC converter.  It will work as a DC-DC converter.

Quote

Get the basics, learn something about specs and product development before saying I talk crazy.

What makes you think I don't know the "basics, something about specs and product development?"

You're not bringing anything productive to this discussion.  Please keep the bluster and noise down if you refuse to go back and read the answers to your questions which have already been discussed over and over...

Quote

Not meeting specs=no product.
Not meeting legal laws=no product.

What?!  There are plenty of products out there that don't meet their published specifications. There are plenty of products out there that don't meet their legal, safety or other certifications or requirements!

Quote

No it's not, you are wrong agian, it always stopped with the story about those strange "high respected journalists"

I must respectfully disagree.  This has been covered in depth multiple times before in this thread!  :palm:

Please go back and actually read the whole thread in its entirety if you believe we haven't covered that yet rather than harping on the same busted ideas over and over again.  It's all in there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 02:37:20 pm

Quote from: drussell on January 14, 2016, 02:00:38 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 01:43:14 pm

It will be a boat that does not perform like the claims in staying above water, like the claims.
That's no boat.

That's a ridiculous analogy...  It is a DC-DC converter.  It will work as a DC-DC converter.

"the product" is not a DC-DC converter, you are wrong again. "the product" is the device that works like the specs they claimed.
You are turning and twisting this thing till it fits your agenda.

Quote from: drussell on January 14, 2016, 02:00:38 pm

What makes you think I don't know the "basics, something about specs and product development?"

Your total ignorance about every aspect of the facts.
And because you now even try to defend illegal stuff to defend a part of your case.

Quote from: drussell on January 14, 2016, 02:00:38 pm

Quote

No it's not, you are wrong again, it always stopped with the story about those strange "high respected journalists"

I must respectfully disagree.  This has been covered in depth multiple times before in this thread!  : palm :

He palm guy, be constructive, because that's what we saw you expecting from others too, show me the measurements and report of those "highly-respected journalists"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 02:45:32 pm

Quote from: drussell on January 14, 2016, 01:40:40 pm

...just talkin' crazy talk! ... harping on the same busted ideas ...a ridiculous analogy... not bringing anything productive ... keep the bluster and noise down   : palm :

In case this guy looks for work, he can become the new social media expert at Batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 14, 2016, 02:50:39 pm

You should calm down Galenbo.

We all agree here that the product they have shown and wanted to put on the market will never get to the targeted specs, BUT there are existing product, there are some pictures that does lot come from batteroo (Le the one from the Yahoo article) it has been seen by people that are not from Batteroo.
It does not mean that the product will work as they say, but there is a large difference between "no product" and "not work as marketed".

And you already know that this is basically a DC to DC converter, and that it's fairly easy to build one.

And again, we all here agree that this product will never work as marketed, but it will work, at least to reduce the battery life.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 02:52:01 pm

Quote from: Godzil on January 14, 2016, 02:50:39 pm

You should calm down Galenbo.

Why exactly do you think I am not calm?
Why exacly do you not address the insulting populist palm guy?

Quote from: Godzil on January 14, 2016, 02:50:39 pm

..BUT there are existing product, there are some pictures that does lot come from batteroo (Le the one from the Yahoo article) it has been seen by people that are not from Batteroo.

Totally agree on that sir, not so clear why you felt the need to say me that.

Quote from: Godzil on January 14, 2016, 02:50:39 pm

there is a large difference between "no product" and "not work as marketed".

Till we see some proof, there is "no product" A well-covered "expierience" by some "well-respected journalists" does not change this.
And a wheel is no car, a windshield is no car, a sleeve is no batteriser, an off the shelf DCDC converter chip is no batteriser.

Quote from: Godzil on January 14, 2016, 02:50:39 pm

And you already know that this is basically a DC to DC converter, and that it's fairly easy to build one.

Yes sir, please choose:

-fairly easy to build one, so the prototypes are all around now for 6 months.
-the devil details and constraints made that it is "a little bit less easy" to build it all. Even after "5 years", no shipment.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on January 14, 2016, 03:03:24 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 02:37:20 pm

"the product" is not a DC-DC converter, you are wrong again. "the product" is the device that works like the specs they claimed.

Well, by this definition of "product", I doubt you will find anyone on this forum that will disagree with you (except the Batteroo trolls that is).

But everyone else defines "product" as whatever it is that Batteroo ends up shipping to their backers/customers (if anything at all), whether or not it meets the specs (and nobody thinks it will).

By everyone's definition of "product" as defined above, it is entirely feasible that Batteroo could easily have created SOMETHING, that while not meeting the 800% specs they claim, could at least work well enough to show a keyboard battery meter read 100%.  In fact it's been done (albeit not on a miniature scale) and there is no reason to believe that the necessary components couldn't be sized to "almost" fit in the form factor proposed by Batteroo and still function in this way.

Sure, that is not 100% proof, but the fact that you haven't seen it personally (which seems to be your standard) doesn't make 100% proof that it DOESN'T exist either.

If you aren't willing to accept the definition of "product" as everyone else is using that term, then we really don't have anything to talk about as we are talking about two different things.

And as I said, by YOUR definition of "product", I think just about everyone on this forum would agree with you that it doesn't exist.  So what's the point in "debating" that?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 03:06:43 pm

Quote from: lpickup on January 14, 2016, 03:03:24 pm

But everyone else defines "product" as whatever it is that Batteroo ends up shipping to their backers/customers (if anything at all), whether or not it meets the specs (and nobody thinks it will).

If you choose to use this definition, there is "No Product" at this moment.

Quote from: lpickup on January 14, 2016, 03:03:24 pm

Sure, that is not 100% proof, but the fact that you haven't seen it personally (which seems to be your standard) doesn't make 100% proof that it DOESN'T exist either.

Sorry to corrrect you, "seeing it personal" could help, but I never said or implied it is the only possibility.
It doesn't even have to be academically scientific or legally proven, even a simple measurement setup, with affordable recording could largely be enough.

Quote from: lpickup on January 14, 2016, 03:03:24 pm

If you aren't willing to accept the definition of "product" as everyone else is using that term,...

What exacly do you define as "everyone's" definition at this moment sir? Because all these "everyone's" definitions get confusing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on January 14, 2016, 03:10:57 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 03:06:43 pm

Quote from: lpickup on January 14, 2016, 03:03:24 pm

But everyone else defines "product" as whatever it is that Batteroo ends up shipping to their backers/customers (if anything at all), whether or not it meets the specs (and nobody thinks it will).

If you use this definition, there is "No Product"

If you can show me a definition of "product" that says it has to meet a certain spec, I will concede that point.  But even so, what does it matter?  Everyone else is using a different definition anyway.

Product
noun
a thing produced by labor
an article or substance that is manufactured or refined for sale.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 03:23:22 pm

Quote from: lpickup on January 14, 2016, 03:03:24 pm

..And as I said, by YOUR definition of "product", I think just about everyone on this forum would agree with you that it doesn't exist.  So what's the point in "debating" that?

Even if you think I succeeded, It's not my goal to make everyone agree on the definition "I" introduced.

I see 2 things happening here:
1) personal differences in what definition to use.
2) personal differences on how to prove that definition is reached.

And then I saw the "palm" guy implying "whatever" on point 1, and also "whatever" on point 2.

I'm sure this may look to some as if I am a "definition" totalitarian, but let's stay reasonable.

1) Assembled device, fits, all components present, pcb present, works like described, provides output voltage under load
2) DaveStyle video wich shows the device, shows putting, removing, shows multimeters and datalogger.

Everybody can have his own add/removes of course, everybody has a different background, does something different to earn money, or is scammed in the past in another way.
But nobody will force me to comply with the "1) whatever" "2) whatever" way of "thinking"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on January 14, 2016, 03:36:32 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 03:06:43 pm

Sorry to corrrect you, "seeing it personal" could help, but I never said or implied it is the only possibility.
It doesn't even have to be academically scientific or legally proven, even a simple measurement setup, with affordable recording could largely be enough.

Fair enough, but every time someone presents a case where the "product" has been seen/demoed to someone, it never seems to meet your standards, leaving me to believe that the only proof you would accept is a personal viewing.

But of course this gets us to your definition of "product".  Again, I don't think anyone will disagree that NO ONE has seen a device demonstrated that meets all of Batteroo's claims, and in fact it doesn't exist.  If that's all you're talking about, we can agree and end the discussion here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that you think that nobody has seen ANY type of DC-DC device (whether it meets a particular spec or not) and that any time we did see a device it was nothing more than an empty sleeve and photoshopped/edited falsehood.

Take for example the GPS video and the associated full length "explanation"...now there was definitely some fakery going on there (for example, I believe they halted the test at the first warning screen), but I don't have a problem accepting the fact that they did fit the batteriser device with SOME kind of prototype DC-DC converter to get the behavior they showed.  In fact it probably would have been more difficult for them to completely fake the results.  Sure, the device would not meet their stated claims.  Nobody is arguing that.  But I do believe they fit a DC-DC converter onto a sleeve and ran the GPS from it, whereas it sounds like you think it was nothing more than an empty sleeve and faked waveforms.  Is this not the case?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on January 14, 2016, 03:44:27 pm

If I check the claimed miles per gallon / Litres per 100Km of my car (or any car I've ever owned), I'm pretty sure that my car doesn't achieve the manufacturers claimed specs. But it still exists (I can see it outside) and it's still a product.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on January 14, 2016, 03:45:26 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 03:23:22 pm

I see 2 things happening here:
1) personal differences in what definition to use.
2) personal differences on how to prove that definition is reached.

I see one thing happening here: someone is getting worked up and ranting about inconsequential crap which is helping no one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 03:47:58 pm

Quote from: lpickup on January 14, 2016, 03:36:32 pm

... where the "product" has been seen/demoed to someone, it never seems to meet your standards, leaving me to believe that the only proof you would accept is a personal viewing.

I am aware of only 1 claim to have "showed the product", and that was that conspiracy "high-respected-journalists"
It would be wrong to generalise what I think about this event, and make those conclusions.
My previous post explains my very mild standard on what I personally see as acceptable.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on January 14, 2016, 03:52:43 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 03:23:22 pm

1) Assembled device, fits, all components present, pcb present, works like described, provides output voltage under load

By this definition, I will concede that such a device does not and cannot exist (and I'm pretty sure almost all would agree).

Just be sensitive to the fact that when others are talking about a "product" that has been seen, demonstrated, and even potentially shipped by Batteroo, they are probably using a definition that is much less restrictive; that usually implies a sleeve, a DC-DC converter that more or less fits on the + terminal of the battery, but almost certainly does not meet the claim of 800% or 1.5A current, etc.

As long as we can agree and understand that we are talking about two different definitions, I don't see why we have to debate this any further.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 03:55:06 pm

Quote from: McBryce on January 14, 2016, 03:44:27 pm

If I check the claimed miles per gallon / Litres per 100Km of my car (or any car I've ever owned), I'm pretty sure that my car doesn't achieve the manufacturers claimed specs. But it still exists (I can see it outside) and it's still a product.

Beautiful. If you want to succesfully convert this story to be used here, you better talk about a car that is promised, they are working 5 years on "it", is still not shipped, has some patent issues that will not easyly be solved, EMC testing (or local variant) is still a total joke, images appear in PROVEN scam videos,...
But hey, Google-make "saw" it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 03:56:40 pm

Quote from: lpickup on January 14, 2016, 03:52:43 pm

..As long as we can agree and understand that we are talking about two different definitions, I don't see why we have to debate this any further.

You don't have to, I don't have to.

You show a very good difference between 2 possible definitions, but say nothing about the other point.
Even if you choose the most loose definition, what's proof enough for you that even that thing exists?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 14, 2016, 04:19:50 pm

lpickup: I thinks it's hopeless. Even if you prove him in all possible way that he is wrong he will still says that he is right..

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on January 14, 2016, 04:24:53 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 03:56:40 pm

You show a very good difference between 2 possible definitions, but say nothing about the other point.
Even if you choose the most loose definition, what's proof enough for you that even that thing exists?

In this case, I accept the Battero GPS video as evidence that they have SOMETHING, based on the fact that I think it would be easier for them to actually create this prototype-level device than it would be to fake all the data & waveforms, etc.  Of course I am skeptical of their claims & conclusions, but whether the device exists or not, in this case, I accept their own video.

Depending on what's at stake, my standards of proof and whether specs are met increase towards your stated criteria:

If I was spending a nominal amount of my money on such devices, I would have a higher standard of proof that there is a reasonable chance that (a) the device is even possible and (b) the seller has demonstrated the device to a 3rd party that is clearly not a paid shill of the company.

If I was investing a significant amount of money on such devices, the standard is even higher and I would want a renowned 3rd party to independently validate the actual claims being made with their own test (and not just UL repeating a contrived test).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 14, 2016, 04:28:05 pm

(The fact that some people at UL saw this test, even if flawed, is also a proof that some prototype exists.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 14, 2016, 05:20:01 pm

Quote from: Godzil on January 14, 2016, 04:28:05 pm

(The fact that some people at UL saw this test, even if flawed, is also a proof that some prototype exists.)

Yup, and the emissions testing done for the FCC, etc.  Prototypes exist.  Some people don't want to admit / believe / accept that so I suggest we not further feed the trolls....  I'm simply not going to respond and thereby needlessly increase the noise level in here.  This thread is lengthy enough as it is..

Unfortunately the forum "Ignore List" functionality doesn't seem to work as expected.  Unfortunately, I still see posts from members on my "Ignore List", they are just prefaced by "You are ignoring this user."  :)

Dave, can we get a setting that will allow us to actually hide posts from users on our "Ignore List" please?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 07:04:16 pm

Quote from: Godzil on January 14, 2016, 04:19:50 pm

lpickup: I thinks it's hopeless. Even if you prove him in all possible way that he is wrong he will still says that he is right.

You did not proove anything. Your definition of "all possible way" is very poisoned.
I do not say I am right, still looking for more info.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on January 14, 2016, 10:59:16 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 07:04:16 pm

Quote from: Godzil on January 14, 2016, 04:19:50 pm

lpickup: I thinks it's hopeless. Even if you prove him in all possible way that he is wrong he will still says that he is right.

You did not proove anything. Your definition of "all possible way" is very poisoned.
I do not say I am right, still looking for more info.

You talk about others twisting the facts to fit their agenda, but man, you are the king (or queen) of that!

Quit harping on about this. You have an opinion, you've stated it multiple times. We get it. You're not going to change anyone's mind about this. All you're doing is increasing the SNR of an otherwise stellar thread.

If you want to rant to an audience, start a Tumblr.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on January 15, 2016, 12:27:01 am

They plan to start shipping this February.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=193808;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=193810;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=193816;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=193818;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 15, 2016, 01:19:47 am

I recommend that nobody engage Galenbo on this issue again, he will not give up and the thread will be polluted with his silly argument.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 15, 2016, 01:26:20 am

Quote from: quad on January 15, 2016, 12:27:01 am

They plan to start shipping this February.

It will be interesting to see if the Energiser Trademark lawsuit is mentioned in the next update.
I'm almost 100% certain they won't be dumb enough to ship product with "Batteriser" marked on the side of it, any trademark attorney would tell them that.
So if they do actually ship in February, some sort of deal would have to be made with Energiser. And I'm pretty sure Energiser will not back down or deal, they want the name Batteriser gone, so that mean re-manufacturing the sleeves.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on January 15, 2016, 02:36:04 am

Quote

... so that mean re-manufacturing the sleeves.

Do we know they actually started the production run of anything? If yes, I would think it is to their interest to show pictures of some half made parts/product, such as piles of PCBs or sleeves just to make the backers happy.

But, so far, there appears to be none. Their updates are always very vague. It will be no surprise if the behind-scene reality is worse than their vagueness.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ian.M on January 15, 2016, 05:06:55 am

Their excuses aren't even as good as: "Sir, I'm sorry, the dog ate my homework!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 15, 2016, 05:15:06 am

Quote from: onlooker on January 15, 2016, 02:36:04 am

Quote

... so that mean re-manufacturing the sleeves.

Do we know they actually started the production run of anything? If yes, I would think it is to their interest to show pictures of some half made parts/product, such as piles of PCBs or sleeves just to make the backers happy.

They did post photos of the production ready sleeves and cases, all with Batetriser logo 3 months ago.
You would think they would have pressed the go button at some point since then. The only thing they changed was the chip.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on January 15, 2016, 06:54:48 am

Quote from: timb on January 14, 2016, 10:59:16 pm

All you're doing is increasing the SNR of an otherwise stellar thread.

Actually since the last video of Dave there is only noise in this topic since it is all hearsay, theories in peoples mind and social media blurring. In short: just  :blah:
I really do hope they ship something physical and Dave or someone else can test it and we have something to really discuss about.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 15, 2016, 07:34:44 am

Quote from: Kjelt on January 15, 2016, 06:54:48 am

Actually since the last video of Dave there is only noise in this topic since it is all hearsay, theories in peoples mind and social media blurring. In short: just  :blah:

You must have missed some awesome engineering done by many on here, creating equivalents and testing them, proving maximum power theory, testing the Golf GPS etc.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on January 15, 2016, 08:20:13 am

probably must have  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 15, 2016, 09:51:27 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 15, 2016, 05:15:06 am

They did post photos of the production ready sleeves and cases, all with Batetriser logo 3 months ago.
You would think they would have pressed the go button at some point since then. The only thing they changed was the chip.

The smart-businessman thing to do would have been to ship as-is, with the 500mA chip...

... and announce "Batteriser 2" (with the new chip) the day before the shipment is sent.

That way you earn double the money by selling two units to everybody and you can string along the people who say "It doesn't work as claimed!" for a few more months by saying "Batteriser 2 is better".

The fact that they haven't done this probably means they haven't manufactured a single sausage to date. Me? I still think they'll never ship anything.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 15, 2016, 09:54:10 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 15, 2016, 01:19:47 am

I recommend that nobody engage Galenbo on this issue again, he will not give up and the thread will be polluted with his silly argument.

Sign me up for that one!  :-+

Quote from: quad on January 15, 2016, 12:27:01 am

They plan to start shipping this February.

In the middle of Chinese New Year?

Hmmmm. I wonder what the next excuse will be.  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 15, 2016, 10:02:04 am

Quote from: Fungus on January 15, 2016, 09:51:27 am

The smart-businessman thing to do would have been to ship as-is, with the 500mA chip...

Not with a trademark lawsuit hanging over your head, only a fool would ship anything with the name on it. When you do that then you can potentially get sued for damages per unit shipped.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on January 15, 2016, 10:19:10 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 15, 2016, 01:26:20 am

So if they do actually ship in February, some sort of deal would have to be made with Energiser. And I'm pretty sure Energiser will not back down or deal, they want the name Batteriser gone, so that mean re-manufacturing the sleeves.

Did you miss this one? It is a bit hard to see:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=193506;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 15, 2016, 10:28:06 am

Quote from: PA0PBZ on January 15, 2016, 10:19:10 am

Did you miss this one? It is a bit hard to see:

It obviously says Batteroo on the sleeve.
When and were was this image taken?
Looks like one of the old prototypes? Because the latest sexy ones in the IGG update from a few months back have Batteriser on them.
Like this one from their original promo images:
(https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1437687728/ypjmnofp0zs8xqscs8wo.png)

In this image of the progression of prototypes, the third from the left has Batteroo on it. They obviously switched to Batterier after that.
(https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1437691165/sd1sbn0zapjbzmhibu0g.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on January 15, 2016, 10:31:25 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 15, 2016, 10:28:06 am

When and were was this image taken?

It's from the video here: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/ (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/)
Around 0:22

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on January 15, 2016, 10:33:21 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 15, 2016, 10:28:06 am

Looks like one of the old prototypes? Because the latest sexy ones in the IGG update from a few months back have Batteriser on them.
Like this one from their original promo images:
(https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1437687728/ypjmnofp0zs8xqscs8wo.png)

I think I see half an "O" there after the R, certainly not an "I".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GoneTomorrow on January 15, 2016, 10:35:33 am

Assuming customers were to ever receive their Batteroosers, I can see many of them getting stuck inside the devices with tubular battery holders (such as the Apple keyboard). I have a few devices with such holders (mainly torches) and they all mostly have about half a bee's dick of slop between battery and casing. Simply wrapping a single layer of 80gsm paper around makes the battery an interference fit.

The shape of the spine of the Batterooser also looks to be non-cylindrical, so there's got to be at least a millimeter there. I'm pretty sure that it would require some force to get into my torches, and then be impossible to remove.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 15, 2016, 10:37:34 am

Quote from: GoneTomorrow on January 15, 2016, 10:35:33 am

Assuming customers were to ever receive their Batteroosers, I can see many of them getting stuck inside the devices with tubular battery holders (such as the Apple keyboard). I have a few devices with such holders (mainly torches) and they all mostly have about half a bee's dick of slop between battery and casing. Simply wrapping a single layer of 80gsm paper around makes the battery an interference fit.

Yep, big problem.
But not to worry, most devices have decent DC-DC converters in them anyway that extract most of the energy from a battery  :-DD

Quote

The shape of the spine of the Batterooser also looks to be non-cylindrical, so there's got to be at least a millimeter there. I'm pretty sure that it would require some force to get into my torches, and then be impossible to remove.

My torches work down to under 0.8V. No need for Batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GoneTomorrow on January 15, 2016, 10:48:14 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 15, 2016, 10:37:34 am

Quote from: GoneTomorrow on January 15, 2016, 10:35:33 am

Assuming customers were to ever receive their Batteroosers, I can see many of them getting stuck inside the devices with tubular battery holders (such as the Apple keyboard). I have a few devices with such holders (mainly torches) and they all mostly have about half a bee's dick of slop between battery and casing. Simply wrapping a single layer of 80gsm paper around makes the battery an interference fit.

Yep, big problem.
But not to worry, most devices have decent DC-DC converters in them anyway that extract most of the energy from a battery  :-DD

Quote

The shape of the spine of the Batterooser also looks to be non-cylindrical, so there's got to be at least a millimeter there. I'm pretty sure that it would require some force to get into my torches, and then be impossible to remove.

My torches work down to under 0.8V. No need for Batteriser.

Of course, mine do too (I actually tested one of them on the bench PSU back when we were all doing that kinda stuff in this thread (how long ago was that again?)).

Funny thing about, I actually let the smoke out of one of my LED torches by testing its cutoff voltage. It's a 3W 2x AA torch; I started winding it down on the PSU until it got to about 0.6V, and I thought that's impressive. I then glanced up and saw it was pulling 3.5A, and before I could hit the off button, she kicked the bucket.

I assume they were relying on the ESR of the batteries to protect the DC-DC converter from extreme currents at low voltage. Not sure how I feel about that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on January 15, 2016, 11:01:03 am

I wish that they would hurry up and release something, even a video of the working but not quite right half amp version would have kept some people satisfied and confirmed that they were on the job.

Anyway can't wait for the exploded view pictures to arrive.....chips or popcorn, I can't decide..... :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 15, 2016, 11:05:47 am

Quote from: GoneTomorrow on January 15, 2016, 10:48:14 am

My torches work down to under 0.8V. No need for Batteriser.

Of course, mine do too (I actually tested one of them on the bench PSU back when we were all doing that kinda stuff in this thread (how long ago was that again?)).
[/quote]

OMG you can't use a PSU to test low battery voltage! The Batteroo experts say so!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GoneTomorrow on January 15, 2016, 11:11:00 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 15, 2016, 11:05:47 am

OMG you can't use a PSU to test low battery voltage! The Batteroo experts say so!

Remember, it's wrong and misleading at best. Batteries are not power supplies!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on January 15, 2016, 12:03:40 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on January 15, 2016, 11:01:03 am

Anyway can't wait for the exploded view pictures to arrive.....chips or popcorn, I can't decide..... :popcorn:

You can create your own "exploded view" when you attach it to something that pulls more than 1.3A :)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on January 15, 2016, 12:52:10 pm

 No worries on the sleeve getting stuck - they have those convenient holes drilled in there so you can attach pull cords to pull out the battery and sleeve after even their amazing device can no longer extract energy from the battery.  8)

 "Half a bee's dick" (yes, I've heard Dave say it in his videos many times as well) - so much more, umm, 'polite' than the typical expression used in the US to represent the same thing.

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on January 15, 2016, 12:58:34 pm

Quote from: rrinker on January 15, 2016, 12:52:10 pm

No worries on the sleeve getting stuck - they have those convenient holes drilled in there so you can attach pull cords to pull out the battery and sleeve after even their amazing device can no longer extract energy from the battery.  8)

 "Half a bee's dick" (yes, I've heard Dave say it in his videos many times as well) - so much more, umm, 'polite' than the typical expression used in the US to represent the same thing.

There's a US version of the saying?

Edit: Hmmm...Ohhhhh! It just dawned on me.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on January 15, 2016, 01:01:20 pm

 The most common US version references a hair from a certain part of the female anatomy - I guess that's what I get for associating with truck drivers and mechanics. But hey, if this computer thing falls through, I know how to run construction equipment and work on big diesel engines. (joke - not about to make a major switch at nearly 50, the computer thing has worked out pretty well over the years)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on January 15, 2016, 01:03:53 pm

Quote from: rrinker on January 15, 2016, 01:01:20 pm

The most common US version references a hair from a certain part of the female anatomy - I guess that's what I get for associating with truck drivers and mechanics. But hey, if this computer thing falls through, I know how to run construction equipment and work on big diesel engines. (joke - not about to make a major switch at nearly 50, the computer thing has worked out pretty well over the years)

 I cun't harely believe that didn't occur to me sooner.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on January 15, 2016, 01:24:31 pm

 As Dave likes to say, winner winner, chicken dinner!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on January 15, 2016, 03:14:20 pm

Quote from: rrinker on January 15, 2016, 12:52:10 pm

  "Half a bee's dick" (yes, I've heard Dave say it in his videos many times as well) - so much more, umm, 'polite' than the typical expression used in the US to represent the same thing.

In the UK it's often referred to as a "Gnat's cock", which I believe is the S.I. unit.  We don't use the old imperial Bee dicks any more.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: free_electron on January 15, 2016, 03:42:56 pm

Quote from: McBryce on January 15, 2016, 12:03:40 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on January 15, 2016, 11:01:03 am

Anyway can't wait for the exploded view pictures to arrive.....chips or popcorn, I can't decide..... :popcorn:

You can create your own "exploded view" when you attach it to something that pulls more than 1.3A :)

McBryce.

Batterizer -> Batteroaster

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bob F. on January 15, 2016, 04:57:15 pm

Quote from: GoneTomorrow on January 15, 2016, 10:35:33 am

... and they all mostly have about half a bee's dick of slop ...

Now I don't feel well...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 15, 2016, 06:21:08 pm

Quote from: free_electron on January 15, 2016, 03:42:56 pm

Quote from: McBryce on January 15, 2016, 12:03:40 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on January 15, 2016, 11:01:03 am

Anyway can't wait for the exploded view pictures to arrive.....chips or popcorn, I can't decide..... :popcorn:

You can create your own "exploded view" when you attach it to something that pulls more than 1.3A :)

McBryce.

Batterizer -> Batteroaster

To roast a chicken with only one AAA battery? That's would be really interesting!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on January 15, 2016, 06:30:14 pm

I just noticed that the new video says to insert the Batteriser when the device battery is low on juice. Why not from the beginning with fresh batteries? :D

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 15, 2016, 06:58:15 pm

Quote from: firewalker on January 15, 2016, 06:30:14 pm

I just noticed that the new video says to insert the Batteriser when the device battery is low on juice. Why not from the beginning with fresh batteries?

They've gone back and forth several times on the recommendation for that one....

If you don't insert them until the cells are depleated you lose the placebo effect of some people thinking it really does extend battery life by forgetting how long the cells have been in the device and people will quickly notice that they only get a small increase in useful life from those dead cells when they slap them into a Batteriser.

On the other hand, if you insert fresh cells into a Batteriser then your device will operate at full speed / full brightness / whatever (which is sometimes a part of Batteroo's claims; that it makes your device work BETTER by giving it a constant 1.5v per cell along with their "it's safer with a Batteriser" BS, etc.) at the expense of shorter battery life than without the Batteriser.

That's a dilly of a pickle...  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on January 15, 2016, 07:23:49 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on January 14, 2016, 01:40:00 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 14, 2016, 01:21:53 pm

Give it a break, you keep harping on and on about this.
You are wrong.
Many people and journalists come to this thread to learn about what's happening and to get some engineering fact and professional comment. We don't want it to turn into conspiracy theory central.

Agree on some parts, the only thing I do not like is "you are wrong"
I would like to learn WHY "I am wrong", and what data you use to come to that conclusion.

Please give some info about your high-respected "journalists" that saw "the product".
You did not see "the product" yourself.
Those "journalists" you run after for some conspiracy reason, are the same kind of guys ar Roohpavar.
Good at the drawing table, not understanding the difference between charge and voltage.

The product exists, but it's wheat her  it does what they say, and if they are really going to ship.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on January 15, 2016, 08:17:43 pm

Quote from: timb on January 15, 2016, 01:03:53 pm

I cun't harely believe that didn't occur to me sooner.

Your "mis-spelling" was probably too sublte for most to have got the joke :) But I laughed my ass off.  :-+

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lincoln on January 15, 2016, 09:08:30 pm

Quote from: GoneTomorrow on January 15, 2016, 10:35:33 am

Assuming customers were to ever receive their Batteroosers, I can see many of them getting stuck inside the devices with tubular battery holders (such as the Apple keyboard). I have a few devices with such holders (mainly torches) and they all mostly have about half a bee's dick of slop between battery and casing. Simply wrapping a single layer of 80gsm paper around makes the battery an interference fit.

The shape of the spine of the Batterooser also looks to be non-cylindrical, so there's got to be at least a millimeter there. I'm pretty sure that it would require some force to get into my torches, and then be impossible to remove.

Right? The Apple keyboard is so small that with the right battery (specifically Duracell procells) they barely come out due to a near gas tight seal....

A shame I don't have any any more but I thing the keyboard runs down to below 1v per cell. It has been a while so i don't remember. I had a whole fleet of thees things and the batteries were toast after the kb started to report an issue. mmmhhh.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 15, 2016, 10:39:25 pm

Quote from: lincoln on January 15, 2016, 09:08:30 pm

A shame I don't have any any more but I thing the keyboard runs down to below 1v per cell. It has been a while so i don't remember.

I think someone busted the Apple keyboard on here too, IIRC it did go down to 1V or less.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MLXXXp on January 15, 2016, 10:55:19 pm

Quote from: GoneTomorrow on January 15, 2016, 10:35:33 am

Assuming customers were to ever receive their Batteroosers, I can see many of them getting stuck inside the devices with tubular battery holders (such as the Apple keyboard).

Stay tuned for my up coming Indiegogo campaign for... The BATTERiserY (patent pending):
Alkaline batteries that have a slightly smaller diameter than standard, so you can insert them into a Batteriser sleeve and be able to fit them in to tight holders!  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on January 15, 2016, 11:42:05 pm

Quote from: MLXXXp on January 15, 2016, 10:55:19 pm

Quote from: GoneTomorrow on January 15, 2016, 10:35:33 am

Assuming customers were to ever receive their Batteroosers, I can see many of them getting stuck inside the devices with tubular battery holders (such as the Apple keyboard).

Stay tuned for my up coming Indiegogo campaign for... The BATTERiserY (patent pending):
Alkaline batteries that have a slightly smaller diameter than standard, so you can insert them into a Batteriser sleeve and be able to fit them in to tight holders!  ;)

800% smaller?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on January 15, 2016, 11:50:10 pm

 Negative space-time? Wait - that might provide infinite energy, in which case no Batteriser needed, ever!
Forget buying lottery tickets, I'm dumping it all in this campaign!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on January 15, 2016, 11:51:20 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 15, 2016, 10:39:25 pm

Quote from: lincoln on January 15, 2016, 09:08:30 pm

A shame I don't have any any more but I thing the keyboard runs down to below 1v per cell. It has been a while so i don't remember.

I think someone busted the Apple keyboard on here too, IIRC it did go down to 1V or less.

There's two versions of the Apple Bluetooth Keyboard. When it was first released it took 3 AA batteries; IIRC within 6 months to a year they quietly released a new version that only needed 2 batteries. Nothing else changed externally. I think they bumped the part number up by a single digit.

Anyway, the older version of the keyboard may not work at as low of a voltage? I've got one here and can test it if anyone is interested.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on January 16, 2016, 12:54:25 am

Quote from: rrinker on January 15, 2016, 11:50:10 pm

Negative space-time? Wait - that might provide infinite energy, in which case no Batteriser needed, ever!

Do you work for Steorn by any chance?  :)  I believe that is pretty much the explanation they use to the media :bullshit:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 16, 2016, 03:27:15 am

Quote from: rich on January 16, 2016, 12:54:25 am

Do you work for Steorn by any chance?  :)  I believe that is pretty much the explanation they use to the media :bullshit:

Steorn are buying Batteriser! It'll take 800% longer to release a working product now!  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 16, 2016, 03:31:42 am

Anybody thought of running a pool on this...?

Pick a date when they either actually ship something or when they announce it's dead in the water.

Bonus for guessing which.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on January 16, 2016, 04:16:09 am

I was good before but after trying to make sense of this garbage I now have the worst migraine you could possibly imagine...... :palm:

A serious apology for posting this shit, some may find it amusing, others may suffer as I did..... :-//

http://hiteh.us/batteroo-says-2-50-batteriser-sleeve-gives-battery-extended-life/ (http://hiteh.us/batteroo-says-2-50-batteriser-sleeve-gives-battery-extended-life/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 16, 2016, 06:41:07 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on January 16, 2016, 04:16:09 am

http://hiteh.us/batteroo-says-2-50-batteriser-sleeve-gives-battery-extended-life/ (http://hiteh.us/batteroo-says-2-50-batteriser-sleeve-gives-battery-extended-life/)

 :wtf:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on January 16, 2016, 06:49:06 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 16, 2016, 06:41:07 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on January 16, 2016, 04:16:09 am

http://hiteh.us/batteroo-says-2-50-batteriser-sleeve-gives-battery-extended-life/ (http://hiteh.us/batteroo-says-2-50-batteriser-sleeve-gives-battery-extended-life/)

 :wtf:

Must be a translation from another language, still reading and busting my ribs out of pure laughter!
 :-DD

Edit, the text at the end of the page is in Russian and asks to please log in to post a comment (to a Russian worldpress link)

So it was originally written in Russian it seems.

Edit2: follow the related links in there, they are as funny :)
Automated translation, and whatever they are using, is just not doing a good job.
For example:
http://hiteh.us/san-francisco-airport-to-test-sensors-that-talk-to-smartphone-apps-to-help-the-blind-find-their-way/ (http://hiteh.us/san-francisco-airport-to-test-sensors-that-talk-to-smartphone-apps-to-help-the-blind-find-their-way/)
http://hiteh.us/facebook-artificial-intelligence-team-serves-up-20-tasks/ (http://hiteh.us/facebook-artificial-intelligence-team-serves-up-20-tasks/)

Or:
http://hiteh.us/microsoft-describes-hard-to-mimic-authentication-gesture/ (http://hiteh.us/microsoft-describes-hard-to-mimic-authentication-gesture/)

Quote

For time, a commoner but perceptive a wearer unlocking his/her telephone (e.g., ended the teres muscle bomb) tin easy illustration the four-digit passcode or the mudra in use to open up the automatic pilot. Every bit a spillover, an assay-mark method that prevents all over the axillary cavity attacks is lovable. a antialiasing should terminate smooth for the mortal to ad-lib along the bait, simply embarrassing for new users to flex subsequently eyesight the effective individual stage business it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on January 16, 2016, 07:17:36 am

http://hiteh.us/supermarkets-welcome-cold-comfort-edge-of-f1-aerofoils/ (http://hiteh.us/supermarkets-welcome-cold-comfort-edge-of-f1-aerofoils/)

I suspect its an automated blog scraper that steals articles, but they decided to be clever and run them through a translator to make it less obvious. Request logs show ads being requested by the page, but they're apparently hidden for some reason.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on January 16, 2016, 07:20:47 am

Yeah, all of them are hilarious:
http://hiteh.us/category/hi-tech-innovation/ (http://hiteh.us/category/hi-tech-innovation/)

Maybe automated translation from English to Russian and then back to English, an international telephone game!  :-DD

Edit: I added an add blocker because of the addsense here at the EEVBlog forums kills my browser so I finally had to install the plugin so it won't hang Google Chrome, so I didn't noticed the ads in there.
Edit2: This has happened recently on the last month or so, it was fine before.

Main site: http://hiteh.us/ (http://hiteh.us/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on January 16, 2016, 07:29:10 am

Original article:
http://techxplore.com/news/2015-09-soldiers-soft-exosuit-tech-fatigue.html (http://techxplore.com/news/2015-09-soldiers-soft-exosuit-tech-fatigue.html)
hiteh article:
http://hiteh.us/soldiers-crossing-with-soft-exosuit-tech-to-lighten-fatigue/ (http://hiteh.us/soldiers-crossing-with-soft-exosuit-tech-to-lighten-fatigue/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ziq8tsi on January 16, 2016, 07:36:42 am

Repeated translation would mess up the grammar and punctuation a lot more, and would not tend to make ridiculous substitutions like "at" ? "Laotian monetary unit", or render "shoulder" variously as "teres muscle" and "axillary cavity".

It is a comedy thesaurus algorithm executed word by word.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Joule Thief on January 16, 2016, 07:47:36 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on January 16, 2016, 04:16:09 am

I was good before but after trying to make sense of this garbage I now have the worst migraine you could possibly imagine...... :palm:

A serious apology for posting this shit, some may find it amusing, others may suffer as I did..... :-//

http://hiteh.us/batteroo-says-2-50-batteriser-sleeve-gives-battery-extended-life/ (http://hiteh.us/batteroo-says-2-50-batteriser-sleeve-gives-battery-extended-life/)

I call dibbs on the design rights for "cold snap electromotive force boosters"   :-DD

we could us some of those turned on right now in the NE USA. Brrrrrrr

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on January 16, 2016, 11:32:08 am

I reckon that retranslated article has more truths and accuracy than the original Batteriser press releases.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 16, 2016, 11:46:23 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on January 16, 2016, 04:16:09 am

I was good before but after trying to make sense of this garbage I now have the worst migraine you could possibly imagine...... :palm:

A serious apology for posting this shit, some may find it amusing, others may suffer as I did..... :-//

http://hiteh.us/batteroo-says-2-50-batteriser-sleeve-gives-battery-extended-life/ (http://hiteh.us/batteroo-says-2-50-batteriser-sleeve-gives-battery-extended-life/)

I didn't get halfway through the first paragraph before I got into trouble for laughing so much (and nearly choking).  I only escaped further admonishment by reading out some of it - and bloody hell was that a challenge!  It was like reading off a series of flash cards - with no grammatical constructs that I could identify and quite incomprehensible.

... and no, I just couldn't bring myself to finish reading it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on January 16, 2016, 01:01:09 pm

Quote from: mikerj on January 15, 2016, 03:14:20 pm

Quote from: rrinker on January 15, 2016, 12:52:10 pm

  "Half a bee's dick" (yes, I've heard Dave say it in his videos many times as well) - so much more, umm, 'polite' than the typical expression used in the US to represent the same thing.

In the UK it's often referred to as a "Gnat's cock", which I believe is the S.I. unit.  We don't use the old imperial Bee dicks any more.

That's not entirely standard across the UK; the Scotch use "bawhair" or "fudhair".  Directly equivalent though...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 16, 2016, 01:59:33 pm

Quote from: Delta on January 16, 2016, 01:01:09 pm

That's not entirely standard across the UK; the Scotch use "bawhair" or "fudhair".  Directly equivalent though...

You're not a Scot, are you...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on January 16, 2016, 02:00:21 pm

some more facebook comments, grabbed before the inevitable cleanse

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 16, 2016, 02:33:16 pm

Has anybody determined the half-life of social media posts that are critical?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on January 16, 2016, 03:03:16 pm

I noticed a few more additions...  :popcorn:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=194312;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=194314;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=194316;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on January 16, 2016, 03:36:17 pm

Quote from: Brumby on January 16, 2016, 02:33:16 pm

Has anybody determined the half-life of social media posts that are critical?

anywhere between a few hours and a couple of days, tops.  Except that one visitor post that I have put a couple of comments on that seems completely immune to their cleansing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on January 16, 2016, 03:52:13 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on January 16, 2016, 03:36:17 pm

Except that one visitor post that I have put a couple of comments on that seems completely immune to their cleansing.

They don't delete all of them it seems. If we didn't take screenshots it would be very easy for all this to go unnoticed as they will leave a few slightly negative ones up there. E.g. Those asking / complaining about shipping dates.

The ones that definitely get deleted are any that mention the pending Trademark and Patent issues.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on January 16, 2016, 04:21:15 pm

How to Manage the Batteriser Facebook Page in 3 Easy Steps

1. Anything mentioning "Trademark" / "Patent" / "Landslide" / "Lawsuit" / Technical Discussion / "Dave Jones" / "EEVBlog"-> Delete immediately!

2. Those asking "When will they be shipped?" -> Reply, say to check IGG campaign for updates and include link. Maybe add in "diligently working hard", thank them for their patience, and add a smiley face emoticon :)
 
3. Anyone asking interesting / hard questions -> Don't respond, probably delete

Remember: if in doubt, delete!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on January 16, 2016, 04:23:32 pm

Quote from: GoneTomorrow on January 15, 2016, 10:35:33 am

Assuming customers were to ever receive their Batteroosers, I can see many of them getting stuck inside the devices with tubular battery holders (such as the Apple keyboard). I have a few devices with such holders (mainly torches) and they all mostly have about half a bee's dick of slop between battery and casing. Simply wrapping a single layer of 80gsm paper around makes the battery an interference fit.

The shape of the spine of the Batterooser also looks to be non-cylindrical, so there's got to be at least a millimeter there. I'm pretty sure that it would require some force to get into my torches, and then be impossible to remove.

Absolutely true! I had an issue once with my wireless Apple keyboard. A regular Duracell battery got stuck in the back.
A little tap on the other side didn't help.
Slapping it on the kitchen table was the perfect solution.
I finally managed to get the battery out.  >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on January 16, 2016, 04:29:07 pm

Quote from: quad on January 16, 2016, 03:52:13 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on January 16, 2016, 03:36:17 pm

Except that one visitor post that I have put a couple of comments on that seems completely immune to their cleansing.

They don't delete all of them it seems. If we didn't take screenshots it would be very easy for all this to go unnoticed as they will leave a few slightly negative ones up there. E.g. Those asking / complaining about shipping dates.

The ones that definitely get deleted are any that mention the pending Trademark and Patent issues.

that's what I thought, but interestingly I seem to have been banned from any sort of action (even liking!) their entise facebook- except I can still comment on that one post :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on January 16, 2016, 04:31:02 pm

Twitter (https://twitter.com/search?q=batteriser) is somewhat entertaining too.

Quote

Mikes Electric Stuff ?@mikelectricstuf Jan 13

@eevblog @Indiegogo "16 pcs of AA batteries is required" 
Where do I find 0.075 jjiggawatt AAAs?
Do I need  @batteriser?

And still loads of people spreading the glory.

And of course @GoBatteriser (https://twitter.com/GoBatteriser) (always nice to see a verndor's focused Twitter feed).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on January 16, 2016, 04:39:34 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on January 16, 2016, 04:29:07 pm

that's what I thought, but interestingly I seem to have been banned from any sort of action (even liking!) their entise facebook- except I can still comment on that one post :D

That is interesting  :D

If they keep deleting negative posts / banning people, especially genuine backers with legitimate questions, concerns and criticisms... I tend to agree with a prediction from someone here on the forum a while back that someone's going to start an independent Facebook page and it's going to be a free for all! 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on January 16, 2016, 07:38:29 pm

Quote from: quad on January 16, 2016, 04:39:34 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on January 16, 2016, 04:29:07 pm

that's what I thought, but interestingly I seem to have been banned from any sort of action (even liking!) their entise facebook- except I can still comment on that one post :D

That is interesting  :D

If they keep deleting negative posts / banning people, especially genuine backers with legitimate questions, concerns and criticisms... I tend to agree with a prediction from someone here on the forum a while back that someone's going to start an independent Facebook page and it's going to be a free for all!

 Yeah, in this day and age of social media, there's only so much a customer will take before firing back. I'm kind of surprised it hasn't happened yet, there have been several missed ship dates now with ever more lame excuses.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on January 17, 2016, 03:40:20 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on January 16, 2016, 04:16:09 am

http://hiteh.us/batteroo-says-2-50-batteriser-sleeve-gives-battery-extended-life/ (http://hiteh.us/batteroo-says-2-50-batteriser-sleeve-gives-battery-extended-life/)

:-DD Batteriser helps you keep artillery indoors.

Quote

That makes it cobwebby plenty to accommodate indoors a miscellanea of artillery compartments.[/quo1te]

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on January 17, 2016, 03:59:05 am

A month late is nothing in the crowdsourcing world. After three you'll start seeing more noise specially if they don't give updates.

I do think they'll ship, then again I've been wrong plenty of times, just ask my wife.

What will they ship? well we will see how it does perform using up that 2% of battery left in one battery, because of course one will die before the other and people don't bother checking which one dies, therefore the whole problem of disposing batteries with unused energy, and this product won't solve that because people will replace both anyways.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on January 17, 2016, 09:50:31 am

Quote from: miguelvp on January 17, 2016, 03:59:05 am

A month late is nothing in the crowdsourcing world. After three you'll start seeing more noise specially if they don't give updates.

The delay is not the biggest problem here, it's the way they communicate. They promised a new update, and we can already write a summery:

Quote

Hi,
Here's another update to tell you that we're working hard and making good progress.

Unfortunately we encountered a problem [INSERT A GOOD SOUNDING BUT NON-CHECKABLE REASON FOR DELAY HERE] But we are working hard on a solution, and expect to start shipping in a couple of weeks.
Thank you so much for your understanding, sincerely, Bob

Meanwhile more and more people are complaining about their communication. Here's another one that might disappear in a couple of hours:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=194516;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on January 17, 2016, 10:50:21 am

I've just realised I can no longer comment on their facebook page  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on January 17, 2016, 11:35:46 am

Quote from: firewalker on January 15, 2016, 06:30:14 pm

I just noticed that the new video says to insert the Batteriser when the device battery is low on juice. Why not from the beginning with fresh batteries? :D

"Most profiles" here agree that it's almost certain, that most of the "powerded devices" will work less long, when put from the beginning.

1)As most already contain a DCDC converter, adding a second one in the form of a batteriser will reduce efficiency.
2)There is also no possibility to let the batteriser know "device is off/stdby", so it will work 24/7, draining the battery, also when off.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on January 17, 2016, 08:28:08 pm

I think it's pretty funny how riled up backers get in the comments, making demands for more information and such. 

One simple web search before they dedicated any money would have showed it was actually bullshit and the chances of the thing working as advertised was zero.  Well they ignored all that and now they are all suddenly shocked to find there are other problems and they aren't getting honest updates! 

Just think!  The guys that lied about the performance of their product aren't being 100% honest and transparent about why it didn't ship on time.  Shocking!

With the number of scam or never released high profile crowd-sourced projects eclipsing the number of successful honest ones, there is no reason to be surprised anymore if you don't end up getting the thing you were described.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on January 18, 2016, 04:54:04 am

Quote from: Smokey on January 17, 2016, 08:28:08 pm

I think it's pretty funny how riled up backers get in the comments, making demands for more information and such. 

One simple web search before they dedicated any money would have showed it was actually bullshit and the chances of the thing working as advertised was zero.  Well they ignored all that and now they are all suddenly shocked to find there are other problems and they aren't getting honest updates! 

Just think!  The guys that lied about the performance of their product aren't being 100% honest and transparent about why it didn't ship on time.  Shocking!

With the number of scam or never released high profile crowd-sourced projects eclipsing the number of successful honest ones, there is no reason to be surprised anymore if you don't end up getting the thing you were described.

I always stick to: "If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is...".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 18, 2016, 05:00:30 am

I've been banned from their Facebook page. I can't comment any more...  :-DD


(Luckily I've got dozens of facebook accounts.  :popcorn: )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 18, 2016, 02:05:35 pm

I was thinking, backer may have lots of difficulty to ask for compensation if the thing will never exist or being sent, but.. What about people that preorder it on the  website?
This is clearly a commercial there, and people are BUYING goods, so, they are covered by the normal laws, unlike backers which are basically only "money giver with a potential gift"

I wonder how many people have bough their product on the website, after the indiegogo campaign...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on January 18, 2016, 02:26:05 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 18, 2016, 05:00:30 am

I've been banned from their Facebook page. I can't comment any more...  :-DD


(Luckily I've got dozens of facebook accounts.  [emoji14]opcorn: )

I am banned as well after posting just one comment... ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: gore on January 18, 2016, 07:50:37 pm

I haven't been following this topic for a while. Just took a peek at the Indiegogo campaign of Batteriser. There's an interesting comment on top. Kind of implies that some people are getting their devices. Either that, or the guy is preparing in advance for the most likely outcome - disappointment. Or maybe he's referring to their 'non-performance' when it comes to delivering the goods.  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: free_electron on January 18, 2016, 08:44:33 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on January 17, 2016, 11:35:46 am

that most of the "powerded devices"

next step : powdered devices ... you need to grind them to dust before they are compatible :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on January 18, 2016, 09:00:39 pm

Quote from: gore on January 18, 2016, 07:50:37 pm

I haven't been following this topic for a while. Just took a peek at the Indiegogo campaign of Batteriser. There's an interesting comment on top. Kind of implies that some people are getting their devices. Either that, or the guy is preparing in advance for the most likely outcome - disappointment. Or maybe he's referring to their 'non-performance' when it comes to delivering the goods.  ;D

pretty sure he just means "non performance" of the organisation, rather than the actual product.  They have confirmed they still haven't shipped anything

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on January 18, 2016, 09:58:49 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on January 18, 2016, 09:00:39 pm

Quote from: gore on January 18, 2016, 07:50:37 pm

I haven't been following this topic for a while. Just took a peek at the Indiegogo campaign of Batteriser. There's an interesting comment on top. Kind of implies that some people are getting their devices. Either that, or the guy is preparing in advance for the most likely outcome - disappointment. Or maybe he's referring to their 'non-performance' when it comes to delivering the goods.  ;D

pretty sure he just means "non performance" of the organisation, rather than the actual product.  They have confirmed they still haven't shipped anything

Maybe we should sell them some of those "natural enhancement" pills that I keep seeing on commercials at 2AM. They claim to help with performance.

There would be a bit of irony in that. (Not the "Rain on your wedding day" kind of irony, but the "Selling Snake Oil to Snake Oil Salesmen" kind."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on January 18, 2016, 10:05:56 pm

Quote from: timb on January 18, 2016, 09:58:49 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on January 18, 2016, 09:00:39 pm

Quote from: gore on January 18, 2016, 07:50:37 pm

I haven't been following this topic for a while. Just took a peek at the Indiegogo campaign of Batteriser. There's an interesting comment on top. Kind of implies that some people are getting their devices. Either that, or the guy is preparing in advance for the most likely outcome - disappointment. Or maybe he's referring to their 'non-performance' when it comes to delivering the goods.  ;D

pretty sure he just means "non performance" of the organisation, rather than the actual product.  They have confirmed they still haven't shipped anything

Maybe we should sell them some of those "natural enhancement" pills that I keep seeing on commercials at 2AM. They claim to help with performance.

There would be a bit of irony in that. (Not the "Rain on your wedding day" kind of irony, but the "Selling Snake Oil to Snake Oil Salesmen" kind."

800% more performance with the Batterider !

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 19, 2016, 12:32:55 am

Hi group,

A while ago I built a small boost converter to explore the behaviour of the Batteriser.

The details can be found in this thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739648/#msg739648 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739648/#msg739648)

These were used in this video, made by forum member 5ky, to check the Garmin GPS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00YYQxOn2YE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00YYQxOn2YE)

When I built these boost converters, I made the circuit small, but not small enough to fit on top of an AA cell.

Today I decided to explore if the circuit could be built small enough. Using 0402 capacitors and resistors I can get the circuit to fit the space:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=194874;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=194876;image)

This circuit will deliver about 500mA from a 0.9V cell

Most of the components are around 0.7mm tall. The inductor is the biggest challenge it around 1mm tall. With a 0.8mm circuit board, the total height is 1.8mm

Can you see any benefit to building this ?

I have got no idea on how to get this on top of an AAA cell !!

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on January 19, 2016, 12:36:31 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 19, 2016, 12:32:55 am

Can you see any benefit to building this ?

Yeah, apparently you can sucker VC's into giving you $1M for it, and another $300K from crowdfunders...

Go for it!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on January 19, 2016, 12:55:41 am

It would be a total arse, but you could reduce the height if you cutout holes for the components and mount them inside the "height" of the PCB

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 19, 2016, 01:15:57 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on January 19, 2016, 12:55:41 am

It would be a total arse, but you could reduce the height if you cutout holes for the components and mount them inside the "height" of the PCB

I'm thinking that's not a bad idea....

Just cut a square hole in the PCB big enough for a soft 'press fit' of the inductor and just solder the 0.2mm exposed portion to the copper trace - something like you would do to make a solder bridge.  If you were to do something similar for other components, the maximum height is now 1mm.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 19, 2016, 01:38:55 am

You need to be sure that your fab precision is correct, or you would have a lot of failed PCB :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on January 19, 2016, 02:12:42 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 19, 2016, 01:15:57 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on January 19, 2016, 12:55:41 am

It would be a total arse, but you could reduce the height if you cutout holes for the components and mount them inside the "height" of the PCB

I'm thinking that's not a bad idea....

Just cut a square hole in the PCB big enough for a soft 'press fit' of the inductor and just solder the 0.2mm exposed portion to the copper trace - something like you would do to make a solder bridge.  If you were to do something similar for other components, the maximum height is now 1mm.

As long as he calls it the Didderiser

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on January 19, 2016, 02:34:06 am

Quote from: timb on January 18, 2016, 09:58:49 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on January 18, 2016, 09:00:39 pm

Quote from: gore on January 18, 2016, 07:50:37 pm

I haven't been following this topic for a while. Just took a peek at the Indiegogo campaign of Batteriser. There's an interesting comment on top. Kind of implies that some people are getting their devices. Either that, or the guy is preparing in advance for the most likely outcome - disappointment. Or maybe he's referring to their 'non-performance' when it comes to delivering the goods.  ;D

pretty sure he just means "non performance" of the organisation, rather than the actual product.  They have confirmed they still haven't shipped anything

Maybe we should sell them some of those "natural enhancement" pills that I keep seeing on commercials at 2AM. They claim to help with performance.

There would be a bit of irony in that. (Not the "Rain on your wedding day" kind of irony, but the "Selling Snake Oil to Snake Oil Salesmen" kind."

I don't think they need any enhancement.  You have to already have pretty big balls to pre-sell $394,649USD worth of product you know isn't going to work as advertised.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 19, 2016, 02:49:54 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 19, 2016, 12:32:55 am

Hi group,
A while ago I built a small boost converter to explore the behaviour of the Batteriser.
The details can be found in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739648/#msg739648 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739648/#msg739648)
These were used in this video, made by forum member 5ky, to check the Garmin GPS.
When I built these boost converters, I made the circuit small, but not small enough to fit on top of an AA cell.
Today I decided to explore if the circuit could be built small enough. Using 0402 capacitors and resistors I can get the circuit to fit the space:
This circuit will deliver about 500mA from a 0.9V cell
Most of the components are around 0.7mm tall. The inductor is the biggest challenge it around 1mm tall. With a 0.8mm circuit board, the total height is 1.8mm
Can you see any benefit to building this ?

Well, you don't have to worry about a patent infringement suit from Batteroo ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 19, 2016, 02:52:48 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 19, 2016, 12:32:55 am

Most of the components are around 0.7mm tall. The inductor is the biggest challenge it around 1mm tall. With a 0.8mm circuit board, the total height is 1.8mm

Cut out a slot to fit the inductor into.
Or if you want to get fancy, perhaps even a multi layer PCB and use the inner layers for the inductor, with a low profile ferrite pressed into slots. Performance might suck though.
Most houses will do you a 0.5mm PCB without any problems. Thinner is also possible using prepreg as the board.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 19, 2016, 03:08:20 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 19, 2016, 12:32:55 am

I have got no idea on how to get this on top of an AAA cell !!

I'm not convinced that Batteroo have any idea how to do that, either!  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on January 19, 2016, 03:18:13 am

Or, they may use flex PCB and possibly with the sheet metal that contacts the B+ terminal as support.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 19, 2016, 05:05:44 am

Quote from: onlooker on January 19, 2016, 03:18:13 am

Or, they may use flex PCB and possibly with the sheet metal that contacts the B+ terminal as support.

Looks like regular fibreglass PCB in the photos. Probably 0.5mm.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daqq on January 19, 2016, 01:05:11 pm

Quote

Most of the components are around 0.7mm tall. The inductor is the biggest challenge it around 1mm tall. With a 0.8mm circuit board, the total height is 1.8mm

Can you see any benefit to building this ?

There are several options for a smaller PCB height. Embedded or semi embedded components are one option:
(http://www.sqpinternational.com/images/pictorial4.jpg)
You can also have very thin PCBs. You could use resistive film as resistors further decreasing the number of 3D parts.


Now onto theoretical hacks:
You could possibly get away without the 33pF capacitor if you make a harder resistor divider.
You could split the inductor into two or N series connected inductors (I don't know about this one).



General advice: Take the disk you have the old OrCAD Layout installed on, put it in a grinder, take the scrap, douse it in holy water (or holy acid if you can get some), and burn it. I hate it vigorously.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: chris_leyson on January 19, 2016, 02:21:39 pm

Nice one Jay_Diddy_B, been meaning to try something along these lines but never got around to it. Bought an LTC3539 and stuck it on a Schmartboard 204-0021-01 DFN-8 adapter, Farnell part number 2483420. It's sitting on the bench somewhere.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on January 19, 2016, 08:07:58 pm

Considering the mechanical design also needs to isolate the battery (+) from the Batteriser's positive output nub, I'm not so sure Batteriser have figured out the physical assembly either - let alone the electrical design.

Perhaps Batteroo is smarter than we give credit.  IGG projects only suggest a project will give an idea 'a good go', but doesn't guarantee it is possible or will work... that's the backers risk.

They are salesmen, not engineers (despite bleating to the contrary), and we all understand the ethical differences between 'sales' and 'engineering'!

How they handle their equity partners and legal challenges, will be an interesting story in itself.  Just walking away from the litigation could cost them more than their entire funding income.

Second set of the match has yet to start!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on January 20, 2016, 02:23:37 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 15, 2016, 10:39:25 pm

Quote from: lincoln on January 15, 2016, 09:08:30 pm

A shame I don't have any any more but I thing the keyboard runs down to below 1v per cell. It has been a while so i don't remember.

I think someone busted the Apple keyboard on here too, IIRC it did go down to 1V or less.

My engineering notebook was stolen, but I think the keyboard was 1.05V and the trackpad was 0.95V. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on January 20, 2016, 03:38:24 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on January 20, 2016, 02:23:37 am

My engineering notebook was stolen, but ......

Suuuuuure... That's totally going to be my excuse next time.  Sorry boss.  stolen again!  Damn engineering hooligans!   :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on January 20, 2016, 03:57:53 am

Quote from: Smokey on January 20, 2016, 03:38:24 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on January 20, 2016, 02:23:37 am

My engineering notebook was stolen, but ......

Suuuuuure... That's totally going to be my excuse next time.  Sorry boss.  stolen again!  Damn engineering hooligans!   :)

I know you're kidding, but I'm not.  My car got cleaned out the one night I didn't bring in my backpack.  I lost a year's worth of work because I never scanned or copied my engineering notes.  It's a royal pisseroo.  Don't be like me and make sure you duplicate your notes and store them separately. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 20, 2016, 04:47:32 am

Backup your backpack.

I like that.  Added to my list.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on January 20, 2016, 05:26:55 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on January 20, 2016, 03:57:53 am

Quote from: Smokey on January 20, 2016, 03:38:24 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on January 20, 2016, 02:23:37 am

My engineering notebook was stolen, but ......

Suuuuuure... That's totally going to be my excuse next time.  Sorry boss.  stolen again!  Damn engineering hooligans!   :)

I know you're kidding, but I'm not.  My car got cleaned out the one night I didn't bring in my backpack.  I lost a year's worth of work because I never scanned or copied my engineering notes.  It's a royal pisseroo.  Don't be like me and make sure you duplicate your notes and store them separately.

That sucks big time :(

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on January 20, 2016, 08:41:25 am

Quote from: meeder on January 20, 2016, 05:26:55 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on January 20, 2016, 03:57:53 am

Quote from: Smokey on January 20, 2016, 03:38:24 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on January 20, 2016, 02:23:37 am

My engineering notebook was stolen, but ......

Suuuuuure... That's totally going to be my excuse next time.  Sorry boss.  stolen again!  Damn engineering hooligans!   :)

I know you're kidding, but I'm not.  My car got cleaned out the one night I didn't bring in my backpack.  I lost a year's worth of work because I never scanned or copied my engineering notes.  It's a royal pisseroo.  Don't be like me and make sure you duplicate your notes and store them separately.

That sucks big time :(

Indeed. I've taken to using my phone to take pics of my notes as appropriate. Sure, unless you're organised it's just a bunch of photos, but at least the info is there. The same applies to odd bits of info on the computer screen, just take a pic of it, far easier than messing about with the snipping tool or print screen button and trying to save it away "somewhere safe" that you forget about. A bit of a PITA to search back more than a few months later but at least it's there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on January 20, 2016, 09:48:31 am

Quote from: Howardlong on January 20, 2016, 08:41:25 am

Quote from: meeder on January 20, 2016, 05:26:55 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on January 20, 2016, 03:57:53 am

Quote from: Smokey on January 20, 2016, 03:38:24 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on January 20, 2016, 02:23:37 am

My engineering notebook was stolen, but ......

Suuuuuure... That's totally going to be my excuse next time.  Sorry boss.  stolen again!  Damn engineering hooligans!   :)

I know you're kidding, but I'm not.  My car got cleaned out the one night I didn't bring in my backpack.  I lost a year's worth of work because I never scanned or copied my engineering notes.  It's a royal pisseroo.  Don't be like me and make sure you duplicate your notes and store them separately.

That sucks big time :(

Indeed. I've taken to using my phone to take pics of my notes as appropriate. Sure, unless you're organised it's just a bunch of photos, but at least the info is there. The same applies to odd bits of info on the computer screen, just take a pic of it, far easier than messing about with the snipping tool or print screen button and trying to save it away "somewhere safe" that you forget about. A bit of a PITA to search back more than a few months later but at least it's there.

That is what I do as well, I frequently take pictures with my phone of measurementdata and scada screens when I am at work. Losing a piece of important paperwork could be hell...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on January 20, 2016, 10:27:49 am

Quote from: Howardlong on January 20, 2016, 08:41:25 am

Quote from: meeder on January 20, 2016, 05:26:55 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on January 20, 2016, 03:57:53 am

Quote from: Smokey on January 20, 2016, 03:38:24 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on January 20, 2016, 02:23:37 am

My engineering notebook was stolen, but ......

Suuuuuure... That's totally going to be my excuse next time.  Sorry boss.  stolen again!  Damn engineering hooligans!   :)

I know you're kidding, but I'm not.  My car got cleaned out the one night I didn't bring in my backpack.  I lost a year's worth of work because I never scanned or copied my engineering notes.  It's a royal pisseroo.  Don't be like me and make sure you duplicate your notes and store them separately.

That sucks big time :(

Indeed. I've taken to using my phone to take pics of my notes as appropriate. Sure, unless you're organised it's just a bunch of photos, but at least the info is there. The same applies to odd bits of info on the computer screen, just take a pic of it, far easier than messing about with the snipping tool or print screen button and trying to save it away "somewhere safe" that you forget about. A bit of a PITA to search back more than a few months later but at least it's there.

If you use an iDevice, check out Scanner Pro by Readdle; it does an amazingly clean job of converting photos of documents to PDF. You just snap a pic in the app, it automatically try's to detect the boundaries of the page (you can drag a selection box around it if it's off) and then it automagically deskews and performs image processing then spits it into a PDF for you. Text and sketches come out nearly as good as if you ran them through a real document feeder style scanner at 300DPI.

At the end of the day I can snap a few quick pictures of any new pages I've added to my notebook (then I draw a box around the page number, so I know that I've got a digital copy of it).

I'm sure there's similar apps for Android. Either way I highly recommend people check it out.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on January 20, 2016, 01:31:27 pm

 Since at my job we are required to submit all receipts for expenses, I make heavy use of that app on my iPhone. There's another similar one I have as well. Snap a photo, it makes a PDF and emails it to me.

 The one good thing about my horrible handwriting (if I need to write something down and other people need to be able to read it, I always print) is that I tend to take any and all notes electronically, which means they get backed up in multiple places. Even if I don't have a computer handy, I'll use my iPad to take notes. Could have used technology like that when I was in college - I recently dug out some of my old notebooks and some stuff I can't read, and I'm the one that write it all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Zbig on January 20, 2016, 05:14:58 pm

I'll just leave it here: Wacom Bamboo Spark (http://www.wacom.com/en-us/products/mobile-accessories/bamboo-spark). Got it this week and find it really cool.

As for the notes management, I use both Microsoft One Note and Evernote. Each has its pros and cons. Personally, I find OneNote better suited for project-oriented stuff and Evernote for every other random pieces of information. Anyhow, try any of these and you'll soon find out how antiquated and inconvenient keeping a bunch of .TXT files on your desktop is.

Also, few people seem to be aware of the "Snipping Tool" that comes standard in every Windows installation since, I think, Vista. Much more handy and functional than bare PrntScrn.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 20, 2016, 08:06:16 pm

Quote from: Zbig on January 20, 2016, 05:14:58 pm

Also, few people seem to be aware of the "Snipping Tool" that comes standard in every Windows installation since, I think, Vista. Much more handy and functional than bare PrntScrn.

Alt-PrntScrn captures just the current window.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on January 20, 2016, 09:14:23 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on January 20, 2016, 03:57:53 am

My car got cleaned out the one night I didn't bring in my backpack.

Sorry to hear that. I've had my car broken into once. From that point onwards, I keep nothing inside anymore, not even the remote control to my garage door. Always comes inside with me.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 20, 2016, 10:44:45 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 20, 2016, 08:06:16 pm

Quote from: Zbig on January 20, 2016, 05:14:58 pm

Also, few people seem to be aware of the "Snipping Tool" that comes standard in every Windows installation since, I think, Vista. Much more handy and functional than bare PrntScrn.

Alt-PrntScrn captures just the current window.

I use Screenpresso, so handy.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on January 21, 2016, 12:12:39 pm

Will we ever hear from Batteriser again?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=195406;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 21, 2016, 01:41:17 pm

Quote from: quad on January 21, 2016, 12:12:39 pm

Will we ever hear from Batteriser again?

It's got to reach a point were it's better to remain silent than come out with more vague talk or BS excuses.
Every new update that doesn't mention the Energizer law suit just digs their hole deeper.
But that's why everyone keeps watching this thread, because it's the best engineering soap opera in town!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on January 21, 2016, 01:49:27 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 21, 2016, 01:41:17 pm

But that's why everyone keeps watching this thread, because it's the best engineering soap opera in town!

Powered by batteriser!  :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on January 21, 2016, 02:32:32 pm

 Soap opera indeed.  :popcorn:
Instead of who is sleeping with who and who the stranger with his head all wrapped up REALLY is, we get to see who gets sued next, who gets fired, and what production problem delays things this week. So much more fun that those shows I had to watch as a kid because we only had one TV. My constant background to playing with Legos or my box of electrical gadgets. Only difference is, those shows have a much greater lifespan than Batteriser can ever hope for.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 21, 2016, 02:44:27 pm

FWIW, I've had some more of my Facebook accounts banned...

Last month I could make a couple of posts before bannination. Now it's almost instant death to post anything negative.

(Still got some accounts left though  :popcorn: )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on January 21, 2016, 03:16:08 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 21, 2016, 02:44:27 pm

FWIW, I've had some more of my Facebook accounts banned...

Last month I could make a couple of posts before bannination. Now it's almost instant death to post anything negative.

(Still got some accounts left though  :popcorn: )

They are spending much more ressources on social media damage control than on updating supporters and delivering the product. The state of Batteroo should be obvious. "It's dead, Jim!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on January 21, 2016, 08:10:13 pm

Quote from: rrinker on January 21, 2016, 02:32:32 pm

Soap opera indeed.  :popcorn:
Instead of who is sleeping with who and who the stranger with his head all wrapped up REALLY is, we get to see who gets sued next, who gets fired, and what production problem delays things this week.

We should have a real life series like that

there are some dilbert cartoons in a similar style :)
https://www.youtube.com/show/dilbertanimatedcartoons (https://www.youtube.com/show/dilbertanimatedcartoons)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on January 22, 2016, 12:02:29 am

Quote from: f4eru on January 21, 2016, 08:10:13 pm

Quote from: rrinker on January 21, 2016, 02:32:32 pm

Soap opera indeed.  :popcorn:
Instead of who is sleeping with who and who the stranger with his head all wrapped up REALLY is, we get to see who gets sued next, who gets fired, and what production problem delays things this week.

We should have a real life series like that

there are some dilbert cartoons in a similar style :)
https://www.youtube.com/show/dilbertanimatedcartoons (https://www.youtube.com/show/dilbertanimatedcartoons)

 We do - it's just that no one is filming it. Most of the info is collected in this thread, so maybe it could be a dramatization later on when it's all over.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 22, 2016, 12:35:03 am

Hi,

I have to record this gem here from the Batteriser Facebook page:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=195556;image)


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on January 22, 2016, 01:28:16 am

That's classic

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on January 22, 2016, 08:11:54 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 21, 2016, 01:41:17 pm

Quote from: quad on January 21, 2016, 12:12:39 pm

Will we ever hear from Batteriser again?

But that's why everyone keeps watching this thread, because it's the best engineering soap opera in town!

It's the soap that learnt me most of all soaps.

Basically it's about nothing, there's nothing new or spectacular.
But their claims and insults provoked so much aspects of debunk, that numerous interesting details popped up.

The biggest contribution of this community, was making them make new claims, new "proof".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 22, 2016, 09:38:49 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 22, 2016, 12:35:03 am

I have to record this gem here from the Batteriser Face

That was me.  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on January 22, 2016, 09:44:26 am

Breaking News: Facebook shares plummet after it's discovered that 75% of all Facebook accounts belong to one guy who goes by the name of Fungus :D

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on January 22, 2016, 09:59:52 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 22, 2016, 12:35:03 am

Hi,

I have to record this gem here from the Batteriser Facebook page:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=195556;image)


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

On February 8th a new year will start in China, a Monkey-year! Now let's hope that means good luck for anything Monkey related..

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on January 22, 2016, 10:34:52 am

Quote from: Kjelt on January 21, 2016, 01:49:27 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 21, 2016, 01:41:17 pm

But that's why everyone keeps watching this thread, because it's the best engineering soap opera in town!

Powered by batteriser!  :D

Aww crap - I was hoping it would be over & exposed soon... but using Batteriser it may last up to 800% longer !

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on January 22, 2016, 12:15:10 pm

Some more indegogo rage :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 22, 2016, 02:32:05 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on January 21, 2016, 01:49:27 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 21, 2016, 01:41:17 pm

But that's why everyone keeps watching this thread, because it's the best engineering soap opera in town!

Powered by batteriser!  :D

800% more story
800% more thrilling
800% more fun
800% more songs
800% more opera!

(but 800% less product, but who care? :D)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on January 22, 2016, 04:16:34 pm

Looks like they just filed the response to the Energiser trademark issue yesterday. Not had chance to read them yet but they are here:

http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-91225355-OPP-4.pdf (http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-91225355-OPP-4.pdf)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on January 22, 2016, 05:11:00 pm

Quote from: rich on January 22, 2016, 04:16:34 pm

Looks like they just filed the response to the Energiser trademark issue yesterday. Not had chance to read them yet but they are here:

http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-91225355-OPP-4.pdf (http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-91225355-OPP-4.pdf)

Now everyone has their email address:
xxxxx@batteroo.com, xxxxx@gmail.com

This really is a soap opera!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on January 22, 2016, 05:50:08 pm

Quote from: rich on January 22, 2016, 04:16:34 pm

Looks like they just filed the response to the Energiser trademark issue yesterday. Not had chance to read them yet but they are here:

http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-91225355-OPP-4.pdf (http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-91225355-OPP-4.pdf)

Quite meritless. It's basically a "I don't agree" without any explanations or reasons.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 22, 2016, 06:28:14 pm

Quote from: HighVoltage on January 22, 2016, 05:11:00 pm

Now everyone has their email address:
xxxx@batteroo.com, xxxx@gmail.com

Did you just doxx them...?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on January 22, 2016, 06:46:55 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 22, 2016, 06:28:14 pm

Quote from: HighVoltage on January 22, 2016, 05:11:00 pm

Now everyone has their email address:
xxxx@batteroo.com, xxxx@gmail.com

Did you just doxx them...?

I don't think you can Doc Drop someone involved with patents.  By definition, if you are dealing with patents then you are going public.

Patents aren't just for showing off to investors...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on January 22, 2016, 08:31:15 pm

Quote from: HighVoltage on January 22, 2016, 05:11:00 pm

Quote from: rich on January 22, 2016, 04:16:34 pm

Looks like they just filed the response to the Energiser trademark issue yesterday. Not had chance to read them yet but they are here:

http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-91225355-OPP-4.pdf (http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-91225355-OPP-4.pdf)

Now everyone has their email address:
xxxxxx@batteroo.com, xxxxxxx@gmail.com

This really is a soap opera!

Quote from: Fungus on January 22, 2016, 06:28:14 pm

Quote from: HighVoltage on January 22, 2016, 05:11:00 pm

Now everyone has their email address:
xxxx@batteroo.com, xxxx@gmail.com

Did you just doxx them...?

It's pubic record and available with a simple Google search. You don't have to be an Internet detective to find it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on January 22, 2016, 10:18:30 pm

An Update!  (kinda, well no, not really)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 22, 2016, 10:20:48 pm

Quote from: timb on January 22, 2016, 08:31:15 pm

It's pubic record and available with a simple Google search. You don't have to be an Internet detective to find it.

It might be, but people's contact details are not to be posted here unless they do it themselves or ok it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 22, 2016, 10:34:08 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on January 22, 2016, 10:18:30 pm

An Update!  (kinda, well no, not really)

Oooh, that's too good to pass up! Awkward question has been (politely) posted.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 22, 2016, 10:40:38 pm

Quote from: rich on January 22, 2016, 04:16:34 pm

Looks like they just filed the response to the Energiser trademark issue yesterday. Not had chance to read them yet but they are here:
http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-91225355-OPP-4.pdf (http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-91225355-OPP-4.pdf)

So what does this mean? They are fighting it? Or is it just a necessary step before they try and make a deal?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 22, 2016, 10:42:27 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on January 22, 2016, 10:18:30 pm

An Update!  (kinda, well no, not really)

That's more blunt than their usual responses.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on January 22, 2016, 10:43:26 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 22, 2016, 10:34:08 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on January 22, 2016, 10:18:30 pm

An Update!  (kinda, well no, not really)

Oooh, that's too good to pass up! Awkward question has been (politely) posted.

The change in direction from "soon" and "nearly there" type responses to what amounts to "hmmph, dunno" is interesting indeed

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 22, 2016, 11:03:20 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 22, 2016, 10:40:38 pm

Quote from: rich on January 22, 2016, 04:16:34 pm

Looks like they just filed the response to the Energiser trademark issue yesterday. Not had chance to read them yet but they are here:
http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-91225355-OPP-4.pdf (http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-91225355-OPP-4.pdf)

So what does this mean? They are fighting it? Or is it just a necessary step before they try and make a deal?

I believe that the document is Batteroo's response to this document, the Notice of Opposition to Batteroo being granted the trademark "Batteriser and Batterise:

http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-91225355-OPP-1.pdf (http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-91225355-OPP-1.pdf)

It looks like its a point by point rebuttal to the challenges from page 27 onwards.

Example:

Applicant admits that opposer has used, promoted, and advertised its goods in
commerce for many years. Applicant denies each and every other allegation
contained in paragraph 7.



Paragraph 7:

7. No issue of priority exists with respect to first use of Opposer’s Marks and the
Applied-For Marks. Opposer has used, promoted and advertised its goods and services under
Opposer’s Marks in commerce for 60 years, since at least as early as 1955, while Applicant
alleges only an intent to use the BATTERISER and BATTERISE marks in commerce. Thus,
Opposer has priority over Applicant with respect to the Applied-For Marks.


It looks like they are trying to hold onto the Batteriser Trademark.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on January 22, 2016, 11:26:09 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 22, 2016, 10:20:48 pm

Quote from: timb on January 22, 2016, 08:31:15 pm

It's pubic record and available with a simple Google search. You don't have to be an Internet detective to find it.

It might be, but people's contact details are not to be posted here unless they do it themselves or ok it.

I get where you are coming from with this, but it came from a public records document that they released so they by default gave permission.  If it was a leaked confidential document that would be different but it's not. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 22, 2016, 11:28:40 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 22, 2016, 11:03:20 pm

It looks like they are trying to hold onto the Batteriser Trademark.

In that case they are going to:
a) be tied up for years in court
b) Waste every last cent they have.
c) Lose (because, you know, it's Energiser and their army of crack Trademark attorney's and 60 years of history using the name vs, umm, Mr Parvin, apparently not even a Trademark attorney, and good buddy of the company probably doing it at mates rates)

And if their attorney Mr Parvin is in any way competent he would advise his client not to start shipping product with the name Batteriser on it, because that will just magnify the damages.
Batteroo are screwed.
It's obvious to anyone that Batteroo chose the name Batteriser as a play on the Energizer name. Who didn't at least momentarily associate the two when they first heard it? Energizer will have no problem proving that.

I suspect they are just kicking the can down the road.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 22, 2016, 11:31:29 pm

Quote from: Smokey on January 22, 2016, 11:26:09 pm

I get where you are coming from with this, but it came from a public records document that they released so they by default gave permission. 

Then point to the public document, don't copy and paste contact details here.
And BTW, it's not even Batteroo's contact details, it's their attorney.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on January 22, 2016, 11:32:10 pm

So they basically waited 40days to say they didn't agree with the trademark opposition.

Quote from: http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-91225355-OPP-4.pdf

22. Applicant further affirmatively alleges that as a result of its continuous and substantial usage of the BATTERISER mark, this mark is a valuable asset to the Applicant.

It's admirable they still view the mark as a valuble asset  :-DD

There is a schedule published in the earlier documents. I wonder what the announcement will be on 24th Feb.

Quote from: http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-91225355-OPP-2.pdf

Time to Answer 1/24/2016
Deadline for Discovery Conference 2/23/2016
Discovery Opens 2/23/2016
Initial Disclosures Due 3/24/2016
Expert Disclosures Due 7/22/2016
Discovery Closes 8/21/2016
Plaintiff's Pretrial Disclosures 10/5/2016
Plaintiff's 30-day Trial Period Ends 11/19/2016
Defendant's Pretrial Disclosures 12/4/2016
Defendant's 30-day Trial Period Ends 1/18/2017
Plaintiff's Rebuttal Disclosures 2/2/2017
Plaintiff's 15-day Rebuttal Period Ends  3/4/2017

Link to index page makes it easier to see all docs filed: http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/2oy0gcdxs/uspto-trademark-trial-and-appeal-board/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/ (http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/2oy0gcdxs/uspto-trademark-trial-and-appeal-board/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on January 22, 2016, 11:53:30 pm

Quick update on the IGG front. They've deleted a bunch of comments, promised an update next week, vaguely referenced China, and still say they plan to ship ASAP.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=195899;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=195901;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=195904;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on January 23, 2016, 02:01:56 am

So, those statements sound like they have no boots on the ground, assuming we take them at face value... That would be an insanity in itself given a product of the mechanical integration complexity of this... I don't want to say that would itself explain continued delays or it would end up in Rob's next update  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Towger on January 23, 2016, 07:06:33 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 22, 2016, 10:40:38 pm

So what does this mean? They are fighting it? Or is it just a necessary step before they try and make a deal?

Your the one with a brother in law who moved to the Dark Side, what's his expert opinion. :-) 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on January 23, 2016, 08:16:38 am

Quote from: quad on January 22, 2016, 11:53:30 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=195901;image)

Interesting statement...

Implying that somehow it could be the company in China's fault if/when people don't receive their orders...

...I'm thinking they haven't actually had anything made.... possibly haven't even found a manufacturer, and have no intention of doing so...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on January 23, 2016, 08:33:58 am

The road was blocked after a landslide in China last I heard, perhaps one lone person with a pair of tweezers is clearing the debris grain by grain this may explain the delay, anyway after it is all cleared they also have this one up their sleeve.

Maybe they were testing the sleeves with fake Duracell batteries, they never stood a chance, poor buggers...... :-DD

https://thecounterfeitreport.com/product/106/ (https://thecounterfeitreport.com/product/106/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on January 23, 2016, 08:36:17 am

So, how's the new chip development progressing?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on January 23, 2016, 08:45:38 am

Quote from: SL4P on January 23, 2016, 08:36:17 am

So, how's the new chip development progressing?

If that's directed at me I'm off the chips altogether and have migrated to peanuts, better suited to this particular thread and in particular the related product I feel.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on January 23, 2016, 11:03:44 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on January 23, 2016, 08:45:38 am

If that's directed at me I'm off the chips altogether and have migrated to peanuts, better suited to this particular thread and in particular the related product I feel.

They are only Monkey nuts when they come with the shell :)

(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac257/mikerj/monkeynuts_zpsibz1ixlj.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 23, 2016, 11:49:52 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on January 23, 2016, 08:16:38 am

Quote from: quad on January 22, 2016, 11:53:30 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=195901;image)

Interesting statement...

Implying that somehow it could be the company in China's fault if/when people don't receive their orders...

I've been on kickstarters that were nearly a year late but the whole time there was a stream of photos of progress: Here's John standing on the production line holding the first PCB to come out. Here's the first box of connecting cables. Here's John going back to China with the PCB because one of the chips is backwards. Here's John showing the bad PCB to the workers. Here's John with PCB rev. 2.0. This is the machine that puts the logo on the boxes. etc. etc.

Yes, it was a year late, but nobody minded very much. They kept us entertained with updates.

Quote from: AmmoJammo on January 23, 2016, 08:16:38 am

...I'm thinking they haven't actually had anything made.... possibly haven't even found a manufacturer, and have no intention of doing so...

Batteriser OTOH haven't ever shown a single photo of anything that might suggest they're actually manufacturing something.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on January 23, 2016, 11:53:02 am

JPG or it doesn't exist.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 23, 2016, 11:56:38 am

Quote from: Fungus on January 23, 2016, 11:49:52 am

Batteriser OTOH haven't ever shown a single photo of anything that might suggest they're actually manufacturing something.

I'm inclined to disagree....

We've seen photos of Bob, Frankie and co - and they do seem to be pumping out stuff....

Stuff that causes the roses out front here to go through a growth spurt every time I open this thread.    >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 23, 2016, 12:08:58 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 23, 2016, 11:49:52 am

Batteriser OTOH haven't ever shown a single photo of anything that might suggest they're actually manufacturing something.

Which is the interesting part, because Bateroo ran a practically perfect 101 textbook crowd funding campaign. They did everything right. Then it all stops the instant the campaign finished.
The crowd funding 101 textbook says to keep backers updated regularly, even with trivial photos of stuff, it keeps them entertained, distracted, and will keep the pitchforks at bay. Yet they seem to be more than happy to have people surrounding them with pitchforks. Crazy.
Although they did actually show a photo of the storage cases from (pre?)production apparently.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 23, 2016, 12:50:01 pm

Completely agree with Dave, and I have the same experience as Fungus, The Tiko 3D printer is a good example of it, they are late, but since the beginning they were updated at least on a monthly basis, explaining as much as they can, etc.. and even tell the backer long before the original deadline that some part was not working as, but the worked as hard as possible to get it in time, then that it may shift a bit, etc..
With all that sort of picture like John is ranting against the Chinese worker, John is happy to show you the mould use for that part of the printer, John is ...

Same with the CHIP kickstarter, they weren't late, but kept the backer entertained by showing informations about what they are doing.
Same with the PebbleBee kickstarter, they are completely out of delay for one of the product, but they kept us informed when they can, they even completely redraw/re-spec it and finally send this product earlier this week.
That what make a good KS campaign, Bateroo is clearly doing something really wrong, but I don't completely agree with you Dave, what they are doing right know, they were already doing that from the beginning, they just stopped playing as they seems to be no longer interested in their product.
Comment deletion and false claim was there from the beginning

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on January 23, 2016, 01:07:25 pm

Now they also have a good opportunity to lose the any existing money they possibly have into attorney's bills. And the attorney just happens to be a nephew (or close family relative). I am pretty confident that their attorney will charge Batteroo quite heavily and the Batteroo will suddenly run out of money due to the legal expenses paid to the attorney. ;)

Ps.  According to the lawyer database it seems that the attorney in question hasn't really been practicing law after the law-school, so this may be his first case with good payoff. Technically he won't even lose the case as the client just happened to run out of money and the case was dismissed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on January 23, 2016, 02:03:04 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on January 23, 2016, 01:07:25 pm

Technically he won't even lose the case as the client just happened to run out of money and the case was dismissed.

Could very likely be adjudicated to pay Energiser's costs - maybe $500K or more... ! 
Energiser have a building full of in-house and tethered lawyers, and can allocate whatever resources they want to this case just for fun - no matter how small the dispute is... so 10 barristers at $10K/day over 30 days == $3 million incurred costs.
The court says these are internal costs - and awards Energiser $1M actual costs against Batteriser.  Parvees will have to wait for his next gig.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on January 23, 2016, 02:36:25 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on January 23, 2016, 01:07:25 pm

Now they also have a good opportunity to lose the any existing money they possibly have into attorney's bills. And the attorney just happens to be a nephew (or close family relative). I am pretty confident that their attorney will charge Batteroo quite heavily and the Batteroo will suddenly run out of money due to the legal expenses paid to the attorney. ;)

Ps.  According to the lawyer database it seems that the attorney in question hasn't really been practicing law after the law-school, so this may be his first case with good payoff. Technically he won't even lose the case as the client just happened to run out of money and the case was dismissed.

It wouldn't be dismissed if they ran out of money - that would be a win for Batteroo - more likely a default judgement which means that the court finds in favor of the plaintiff because the defendant did not provide a defense. That would be very bad for Batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on January 23, 2016, 05:35:10 pm

Quote from: SL4P on January 23, 2016, 02:03:04 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on January 23, 2016, 01:07:25 pm

Technically he won't even lose the case as the client just happened to run out of money and the case was dismissed.

Could very likely be adjudicated to pay Energiser's costs - maybe $500K or more... ! 

It doesn't matter if they are made to pay $1 or 10 million dollars if they have paid during the process to their attorney and run out of money. The Batteroo as a company will just go bankrupt, Energizer will not get a dime and case closed. However, the attorney will now have their money, and the money will be recycled back to the ex-Batteroo owners. It is like magic!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on January 23, 2016, 07:09:30 pm

This whole process is an opposition to a trade mark application made by Batteroo which has not yet been granted. The process and resolution is handled by the Trademark Trial and Appeal Board of the US Patent and Trademark Office. Nobody is suing anybody. Costs don't get awarded even if the trademark is refused registration. I would argue the particular attorney was chosen because they are cheap and part of Bateroo's friend/relative network and not as an actor in a larger money moving conspiracy.

Assuming we accept on faith that they have done some engineering followed by a production run, and maybe incurred unforeseen expense with the scrapped 500mA version then there really isn't a lot of money left to disappear into the night with.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 23, 2016, 07:22:22 pm

Quote from: rich on January 23, 2016, 07:09:30 pm

Assuming we accept on faith that they have done some engineering followed by a production run, and maybe incurred unforeseen expense with the scrapped 500mA version then there really isn't a lot of money left to disappear into the night with.

How likely is it that they scrapped a batch of 500mA versions because they wanted "to give our backers the absolute best final product that we believe they deserve"?  :popcorn:

Me? I think they've just been spending the money since day one with no intention of manufacturing anything unless they got a huge contract (eg. Walmart).

And I think Walmart are too smart to buy a product like that without thoroughly testing it, so... not gonna happen, Bob.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on January 23, 2016, 08:16:59 pm

There is no hard evidence to prove they have built more than a few prototypes of any design, or whether the 500mA switcheroo incurred any costs beyond the PR hype department.

Me? I'd like to think: two brothers thought it'd be easy to build such a simple product they genuinely believed in and make a fortune from it. They screwed up the technical claims and got called out and been in a hole ever since but tried to get out by digging whilst misdirecting backers attention. If it's anything like zano story, there'll be 160000 regulators in a box being auctioned off when they run out of cash.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on January 23, 2016, 08:21:12 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 22, 2016, 11:28:40 pm

...And if their attorney Mr Parvin is in any way competent he would advise his client not to start shipping product with the name Batteriser on it, because that will just magnify the damages.
Batteroo are screwed....

Yeah well... To create his answer submission document it appears that he used a "Pleading Wizard" and there were a number of glaring spelling and grammar errors in his original letter, so I'm not sure how competent he is, to be fair.  ???

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 23, 2016, 08:36:56 pm

Quote from: rich on January 23, 2016, 08:16:59 pm

Me? I'd like to think: two brothers thought it'd be easy to build such a simple product they genuinely believed in and make a fortune from it. They screwed up the technical claims and got called out.

Really? The Batteriser Brothers believed that "8x more battery life" was a reasonable claim?  :-DD

I've got some real estate you might be interested in.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on January 23, 2016, 08:44:47 pm

I didn't say I believed the claim. You should direct your real estate offer to Batteroo Bros.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 23, 2016, 09:15:30 pm

Quote from: samgab on January 23, 2016, 08:21:12 pm

Yeah well... To create his answer submission document it appears that he used a "Pleading Wizard" and there were a number of glaring spelling and grammar errors in his original letter, so I'm not sure how competent he is, to be fair.  ???

I noticed that as well.

I think it's safe to say the Batteriser Bros haven't spent much on their legal defense. They're probably only doing it to show their investors they did something.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 23, 2016, 10:55:46 pm

Hi group,

Why wait for your Batteriser? Why not build your own?

Here are some pictures of mine:

Bare Naked Board

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196210;image)

The board was made from 0.062 (1.6mm) FR4. I didn't want change my machine to use 0.032" (0.8mm).

Assembled Board

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196212;image)


The Inductor is 1mm tall, the output capacitors are 0805, they could be 0603, I didn't have any.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196214;image)


Board on AA cell

Here is a photo of the board sitting an AA cell. Normally the board will be sitting the other way up.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196216;image)

Positive Output Terminal

This is where the positive output terminal attaches to.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196218;image)


Board Measurements

Here is a photograph of the board being measured by my Mitutoyo Calipers.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196220;image)


Challenge to Batteroo.

I have shown you mine, now it is time to show me yours.

(I was quite amazed that I could build this at home.) :D

Edit -  a couple more pictures

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196238;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196240;image)

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 23, 2016, 11:05:49 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 23, 2016, 10:55:46 pm

Hi group,

Why wait for your Batteriser? Why not build your own?

Here are some pictures of mine:

I have shown you mine, now it is time to show me yours.

I'd show you mine but I don't want to end up in a dumpster in Milpitas.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on January 23, 2016, 11:16:47 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 23, 2016, 10:55:46 pm

Hi group,
Why wait for your Batteriser? Why not build your own?
:::

Nice presentation.
And of course as others have said - if you put an extra $1.3M into it, there could have been some dimensional and performance improvements.

Appreciate your willingness to share.  (Hint: Buttriser)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 23, 2016, 11:31:32 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 23, 2016, 11:05:49 pm

I'd show you mine but I don't want to end up in a dumpster in Milpitas.

I have been to Milpitas. There are worse places to end up in a dumpster  :-DD

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 24, 2016, 12:26:12 am

Quote from: Fungus on January 23, 2016, 09:15:30 pm

I think it's safe to say the Batteriser Bros haven't spent much on their legal defense. They're probably only doing it to show their investors they did something.

Quote from: rich on January 23, 2016, 07:09:30 pm

This whole process is an opposition to a trade mark application made by Batteroo which has not yet been granted. The process and resolution is handled by the Trademark Trial and Appeal Board of the US Patent and Trademark Office. Nobody is suing anybody. Costs don't get awarded even if the trademark is refused registration.

Rich is correct.  Batteroo isn't being sued.  Energizer is simply opposing Batteroo's application for the Batteriser trademark.

Batteroo doesn't even have the trademark yet.  Large companies like Energizer Holdings (parent company of the Eveready and Energizer battery brands as well as things like Schick, Wilkinson Sword and Playtex, among others) have whole departments of people dedicated to protecting their trademarks by doing things like watching the trademark gazette looking for potentially confusing marks before they are even through the examination process with the trademark office.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 24, 2016, 02:51:59 am

Quote from: SL4P on January 23, 2016, 02:03:04 pm

Could very likely be adjudicated to pay Energiser's costs - maybe $500K or more... ! 

Seem that might be possible if they can prove it was intentional:
http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2013/05/23/trademark-protection-is-litigation-worth-the-cost/id=40711/ (http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2013/05/23/trademark-protection-is-litigation-worth-the-cost/id=40711/)

Quote

The case law gives some guidance as to expectability of outcome in a winning trademark case, but each Court will look at the facts, the motivation behind the infringement (was it inadvertent or intentional), the value to the plaintiff of the mark and lost profits – if any.  In intentional infringement, the Court may even order the infringer to pay plaintiff’s attorney’s fees.

In my view it was pretty obvious that Batteroo were deliberately playing on the Energizer name. It's likely they even deliberately used the non-american S instead of Z in an attempt to avoid this very suit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 24, 2016, 02:55:07 am

Quote from: drussell on January 24, 2016, 12:26:12 am

Batteroo doesn't even have the trademark yet.  Large companies like Energizer Holdings (parent company of the Eveready and Energizer battery brands as well as things like Schick, Wilkinson Sword and Playtex, among others) have whole departments of people dedicated to protecting their trademarks by doing things like watching the trademark gazette looking for potentially confusing marks before they are even through the examination process with the trademark office.

In this case it seems it went a bit beyond the Trademark defense department. Wording in the Energizer suit implies that engineering got involved and they don't think the product even has technical merit (i.e. fraudulent/exaggerated claims) , and hence could potentially hurt Energizer reputation technically as well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 24, 2016, 05:57:22 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 24, 2016, 02:55:07 am

In this case it seems it went a bit beyond the Trademark defense department. Wording in the Energizer suit implies that engineering got involved and they don't think the product even has technical merit (i.e. fraudulent/exaggerated claims) , and hence could potentially hurt Energizer reputation technically as well.

If you're referring to the statements like:

Quote

14. Upon information and belief, the product identified by Applied-For Marks, however, does not actually raise or increase the stored energy of the battery. Instead, as indicated in Applicant’s recitation of goods, the identified product merely provides access to existing stored energy found within the battery, i.e., “sleeve to be used with disposable batteries to extract stored energy and extend battery life.” (Emphasis added).

15. This deception is material because it relates to a character, quality or function of the identified product and because prospective purchasers are likely to believe that the deception actually describes the product.

... these are part of Energizer's opposition to the proposed Batteriser trademark made by Batteroo.  This is with the US Patent and Trademark Office, it is not a regular lawsuit (unless I've missed some reference to an some other case than the trademark opposition), it is a matter for the USPTO's Trademark Trial & Appeal Board.  Energizer is telling the USPTO that they should not grant the proposed trademark to Batteroo because the mark they have applied for is confusingly similar to many of Energizer's marks, that Batteroo have been engaged in publically making questionable to fraudulent marketing claims about the capabilities of their products, etc. etc.

I'm not a IP lawyer but my father did trademark searches for lawfirms for many years and I was around while working on projects preparing for lawsuits, etc. so I do have some insight into the industry.  The only time I've ever been to Washington, DC, I was accompanying my father to a trademarks convention held by the USPTO in '94.  (I did all the IT and management work for the servers, systems and software in our offices where we had local copies of the entire US and Canadian trademark databases including design marks in graphical form that we used for searching and I did things like the updates which were sent on CD-ROM sets every couple of weeks which had to be merged into the local database, etc...  This is late '80s through to the mid '90s, before they made that stuff available on the internet and it required some fairly significant computing hardware, especially large HDDs and banks of CD-ROM drives for the time period... I still have one of the very first 1X speed Philips and some of the 1X TEAC SCSI CD-ROM drives we used for loading the updates.  Believe me, even the upgrade to a stack of six Panasonic model 562 2X CD-ROM drives made those updates a lot quicker!  300K/sec was twice as fast!  Wheee!! :))

We did searches for people preparing to register a mark to try to be sure they would not have things that were likely to cause opposition or at least know what might be potentially confusing, etc. as well as monitoring for holders of existing marks and pulling information for markholders preparing to oppose pending applications or for those preparing to defend their marks.

It was actually really quite interesting stuff to be involved with but the search services we provided essentially became obsolete once the internet became popular and that information was made available online by the various trademark offices.  (Though, our search software was better at doing the actual searching, especially for design marks.)  That part of the business quickly dried up and by the later '90s we weren't doing anything with trademarks anymore.

If there are any actual trademark lawyers in the crowd, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on January 24, 2016, 06:53:15 am

Point 14 is about the semantics and entomology of "Batteriser" and "Batterise" no deep engineering or discrediting of battery life here. If the board decide that it is 'deceptive' then it won't be registered.

Exhibit B shows Bateroo describe the 'riser' to mean the voltage rises to 1.5 volts. In the opposition, Energizer deliberately fail to quote that part.

Of course, as Dave suggested many, many posts ago, if they decide to ship they may have to defend themselves against Energiser going after them for infringement and damages. But we are not there yet  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on January 24, 2016, 06:56:46 am

Cute...
Entomology (from Greek ???????, entomon "insect"; and -?????, -logia) is the scientific study of insects, a branch of zoology.

We know what you meant, but a nice slip up!  (Etymology)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on January 24, 2016, 07:59:29 am

what's worse is I looked it up to make sure I had the correct spelling and still got it wrong  :palm: Maybe I've been watching too many CSI repeats  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on January 24, 2016, 01:29:15 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 23, 2016, 10:55:46 pm

Why wait for your Batteriser? Why not build your own?

Here are some pictures of mine:

The contrast couldn't be bigger.

You post cheap pictures with the intention of showing the maximum of your development.
They run an expensive media campaign with the intention to show nothing.

Good work.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 24, 2016, 04:31:19 pm

Hi group,

This is my 1000th. post to EEVBlog forum:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196456;image)

I have continued my quest to build a DIY 'Batteriser'. I have made some new boards out 0.032" (0.8mm) material. It checking these I found a few more challenges for the Batteroo people.

Revised Artwork

I have revised the artwork. I have removed the hole and made a large copper area for the positive terminal of the cell to connect to the board.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196437;image)

I have added an area on the output side of the board to add a Keystone 5015 testpoint. More on this later.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196439;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196441;image)


Spring Type Battery Holders

Before soldering the parts to the board, I tried the board in a few different battery holders to test the fit. The first was a Fluke 337 Clamp meter. The battery contacts in this meter are the spring kind:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196443;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196445;image)

Notice how the positive terminal is recessed. This retains the spring and provides reverse battery protection.


I was able to install my booster board. There is enough room in the spring to get the board in.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196447;image)



Note that there is a gap between the board, marked with the red arrow, and the spring contact. This is why the test point is needed.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196454;image)

You can see that it is a tight fit:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196458;image)

Fluke 189 DMM

The Fluke 189 meter uses a different kind of battery holder made from thin sheet material.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196449;image)

Here is a picture with a cell installed:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196451;image)

There is not enough in this type of battery holder to install the booster.



Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on January 24, 2016, 05:16:15 pm

 This is amazing. A few days of messing around and you have far more to show for it than these self-proclaimed incredibly brilliant PhDs. Don't forget - they claimed their superiority and said Dave didn't do his analysis correctly because he's NOT a PhD like they are. Far more empirical testing with the fitment and all then those 'geniuses' have ever shown. Regardless of the actual effectiveness of the device, you have at least shown how it may or may not work in various types of devices, and that without the benefit of a million or even hundreds of thousands of dollars of R&D money.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on January 24, 2016, 05:37:28 pm

The layout of the PCB is fairly well known. The protruding top contact should work, if the battery compartment can accommodate the extra battery length.

(https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1437638097/eqdujzrg0u5jh5yq52ax.gif)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on January 24, 2016, 05:48:03 pm

Quote from: rrinker on January 24, 2016, 05:16:15 pm

This is amazing. A few days of messing around and you have far more to show for it than these self-proclaimed incredibly brilliant PhDs. Don't forget - they claimed their superiority and said Dave didn't do his analysis correctly because he's NOT a PhD like they are. Far more empirical testing with the fitment and all then those 'geniuses' have ever shown. Regardless of the actual effectiveness of the device, you have at least shown how it may or may not work in various types of devices, and that without the benefit of a million or even hundreds of thousands of dollars of R&D money.

And Batteroo claim several years of R&D for showing a prototype and not being able to deliver a product while Jay_Diddy_B has built a prototype in a few days. It doesn't take a PhD to determine what the whole business is about. Let's see how long Batteroo are able to keep playing their game. :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 24, 2016, 05:53:07 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on January 24, 2016, 05:37:28 pm

The layout of the PCB is fairly well known. The protruding top contact should work, if the battery compartment can accommodate the extra battery length.

That's what Jay_Diddy_B was pointing out.  Adding the top contact is not the issue, physically fitting the cell-PCB combination in the slot meant to accommodate just the cell is.

Using those two Fluke meters as an example, the one with the spring type contacts did have just enough room to squeeze it in there but on the one with the folded-over metal contacts, there is not enough room to install the AA cell with PCB on top.  If you look closely at the second meter photo, you'll see that the cell is still angled upwards at the negative end, he can't fit the cell in there with the additonal cell length due to the PCB.  The plastic part of the battery compartment simply isn't long enough for it to fit without modifying the meter.  (Or, at least I think that's the case...  Correct me if I'm wrong, Jay_Diddy_B.)

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 24, 2016, 04:31:19 pm

This is my 1000th. post to EEVBlog forum:

Congrats!  :) 

I noticed last night you were at 999,  I just didn't know that your 1000th would be such a good one!  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on January 24, 2016, 06:18:25 pm

Their PCB appears to be much thinner, but even then of course, the jig won't work in devices with tight compartment tolerances.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on January 24, 2016, 06:31:03 pm

5 months ago
Bob Roohparvar
Campaigner

@KevinWesley64
we have found that it does fit in most devices. There are certain very very tight compartments that will be the exception. We worked hard to make the best design to avoid that problem. If you buy the Batteriser and later find that it wont fit in any of the devices you intend to use it for, then we can accommodate a refund.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 24, 2016, 06:39:31 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on January 24, 2016, 06:18:25 pm

Their PCB appears to be much thinner, but even then of course, the jig won't work in devices with tight compartment tolerancs.

Agreed.

The problem with that battery compartment is not so much the thickness of the PCB (that is about 1/3 of the extra length with Jay_Diddy_B's example) but the fact that the height of the + button contact which usually goes up into the slot to the + terminal in the holder is added to the regular length of the cell.  This can't be fully reduced to zero due to the components on the PCB surrounding the button terminal.

There is only so much space available in there on holders designed to only accommodate the actual standard length of an AA cell where the cell basically touches plastic at both ends with just enough clearance to pop the cell in.  There are many products with holders like that where it is simply not going to work, no matter how thin you make the PCB material or if you countersink the components into the PCB itself.  You're still adding at least the thickness of your tallest component to the "shoulder" area around the button no matter how you do it.

Quote from: Wytnucls on January 24, 2016, 06:31:03 pm

we have found that it does fit in most devices. There are certain very very tight compartments that will be the exception. We worked hard to make the best design to avoid that problem. If you buy the Batteriser and later find that it wont fit in any of the devices you intend to use it for, then we can accommodate a refund.

I'm of the opinion that there are many more devices where it is not going to fit than Bob is implying  :)

Also, that is just length...  There are, of course, also many devices with round compartments with very little clearance for even the thinnest, roundest sleeve surounding the cell.  At least they publically said you should be able to get a refund when it doesn't work in your product.  That could get interesting!  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 24, 2016, 06:57:31 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on January 24, 2016, 05:37:28 pm

The layout of the PCB is fairly well known. The protruding top contact should work, if the battery compartment can accommodate the extra battery length.

The layout of my board is very similar to the computer generated image.

This is a photo of my new layout with the parts attached:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196488;image)

There is a large section in the middle to make contact with the positive battery terminal. I have marked the connections in this photograph:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196490;image)

My board is 0.032". I am milling the traces. If the board too thin the component will break off the board.

To give some idea of the scale.

The inductor is 3mm x 3mm  2.2uH at 1.4A
The integrated circuit is 2 x 3 mm DFN
There are three 0603 capacitors

The voltage divider is two 0402 resistors and one 0402 capacitor. If is true that Batteroo is using a custom chip the divider could be inside the chip.

I used the LTC3539.

These boards that I have made are functional.

Quote from: drussell on January 24, 2016, 06:39:31 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on January 24, 2016, 06:31:03 pm

we have found that it does fit in most devices. There are certain very very tight compartments that will be the exception. We worked hard to make the best design to avoid that problem. If you buy the Batteriser and later find that it wont fit in any of the devices you intend to use it for, then we can accommodate a refund.

I'm of the opinion that there are many more devices where it is not going to fit than Bob is implying  :)

Also, that is just length...  There are, of course, also many devices with round compartments with very little clearance for even the thinnest, roundest sleeve surounding the cell.  At least they publically said you should be able to get a refund when it doesn't work in your product.  That could get interesting!  :)

I suspect there will be many devices that the Batteriser will not fit. If you have a linear arrangement of two or more batteries and spring arrangement there will not be enough compression available to accommodate multiple Batterisers.

I still have no idea on how to make an AAA sized one.



Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on January 24, 2016, 07:33:10 pm

Looking at this picture, the PCB appears to be much thinner than yours.

http://www.bestpcbs.com/products/extra-thin-pcb.htm (http://www.bestpcbs.com/products/extra-thin-pcb.htm)

(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT6SrPYILz6ND0W6tJWwrjDAhShFrPxwEC-TjEB_tDiF_kB_g87Uw)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on January 24, 2016, 07:46:40 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on January 24, 2016, 07:33:10 pm

Looking at this picture, the PCB appears to be much thinner than yours.

(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT6SrPYILz6ND0W6tJWwrjDAhShFrPxwEC-TjEB_tDiF_kB_g87Uw)

I don't see any components on it, nor do I see any room for them. Look at the left one where the entire space seems to be taken up by the sleeve. On the thigt one I only see the spring contact.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on January 24, 2016, 07:50:12 pm

It is deceptive, but the tiny components are on it. That particular sleeve was used for FCC or UL testing, if I remember correctly.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on January 24, 2016, 08:18:01 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on January 24, 2016, 07:50:12 pm

It is deceptive, but the tiny components are on it. That particular sleeve was used for FCC or UL testing, if I remember correctly.

Maybe you're right, the picture isn't particularly clear.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on January 24, 2016, 08:55:47 pm

Maybe we're all missing the point.  Bob certainly thinks we have been.

This gadget is a shiny, hard object that will keep cats entertained for hours as it clatters across a hard timber or tiled floor.

For $2.50, that probably about right.  With apologies to someone... The Catteriser

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on January 25, 2016, 12:23:51 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 24, 2016, 06:57:31 pm

I am milling the traces.

Without wishing to go to off topic, what milling machine are you using? That DFN is 0.45mm pitch.

Quote

The inductor is 3mm x 3mm  2.2uH at 1.4A

Which manufacturer/series is that? I have some Wuerth WE-TPC recommended in the DS but they're a bit bigger. Is the one you're using shielded?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 25, 2016, 01:11:25 am

Quote from: drussell on January 24, 2016, 05:53:07 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on January 24, 2016, 05:37:28 pm

The layout of the PCB is fairly well known. The protruding top contact should work, if the battery compartment can accommodate the extra battery length.

That's what Jay_Diddy_B was pointing out.  Adding the top contact is not the issue, physically fitting the cell-PCB combination in the slot meant to accommodate just the cell is.

Simply, use a 0.3mm PCB or some such. The Batteriser as shown should fit reasonably well in the cases shown. There will be fit/contact issues of course, maybe lots of them, but I don't think it's that bad. Using a 0.8mm example is not representative.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 25, 2016, 01:23:39 am

Quote from: Howardlong on January 25, 2016, 12:23:51 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 24, 2016, 06:57:31 pm

I am milling the traces.

Without wishing to go to off topic, what milling machine are you using? That DFN is 0.45mm pitch.

Quote

The inductor is 3mm x 3mm  2.2uH at 1.4A

Which manufacturer/series is that? I have some Wuerth WE-TPC recommended in the DS but they're a bit bigger. Is the one you're using shielded?

I am using an LPKF Protomat C60. The cutters are from www.precisebits.com (http://www.precisebits.com) part number EM2E8-0625-90V.



The inductor is Wurth from MAPI 3010 series. They are shielded. 3mm square or 1212.

Link: http://katalog.we-online.com/en/pbs/WE-MAPI?sid=9e363cc1eb#vs_t1:c2_ct:1 (http://katalog.we-online.com/en/pbs/WE-MAPI?sid=9e363cc1eb#vs_t1:c2_ct:1)

This is the part: http://katalog.we-online.com/pbs/datasheet/74438333022.pdf (http://katalog.we-online.com/pbs/datasheet/74438333022.pdf)

They have smaller ones, but I don't want have too much DCR.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 25, 2016, 01:54:38 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 25, 2016, 01:11:25 am

Quote from: drussell on January 24, 2016, 05:53:07 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on January 24, 2016, 05:37:28 pm

The layout of the PCB is fairly well known. The protruding top contact should work, if the battery compartment can accommodate the extra battery length.

That's what Jay_Diddy_B was pointing out.  Adding the top contact is not the issue, physically fitting the cell-PCB combination in the slot meant to accommodate just the cell is.

Simply, use a 0.3mm PCB or some such. The Batteriser as shown should fit reasonably well in the cases shown. There will be fit/contact issues of course, maybe lots of them, but I don't think it's that bad. Using a 0.8mm example is not representative.

I don't really know about this one. The batteries that I used for the test measured 50.0 and 50.2mm long. They are within the specifications published by Panasonic and Duracell.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196589;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196591;image)

It seems that you need a button that extends 1mm from top of the battery that is nominally 5mm in diameter.

It looks like you need to add 1mm to the length plus the thickness of the PCB.

I don't have any 0.4mm material. Itead can do 0.4mm boards but there is a $100.00 USD premium.

I am milling the boards with a 90 degree V cutter. To get 8 mil isolation I am cutting about 6 mil deep. The board might be too fragile for milling.

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 25, 2016, 02:12:59 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 25, 2016, 01:54:38 am

It seems that you need a button that extends 1mm from top of the battery that is nominally 5mm in diameter.

Yeah, it's that 1mm+ around the button that kills you more than the board thickness.  If one could find really thin components and/or cut them into the board AND do a hole or recess for the button and connect to it in there and then isolate your contact terminal on the topside the length would be minimized as much as possible but that would be a pain and you'd still be adding some length but would fit most devices possible...  Still adding more than 1mm though...

It doesn't look like batteroo does a hole for the button in their design, so they're adding at least that button shoulder depth to the total length.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on January 25, 2016, 02:31:29 am

really nice boards, loving your work Jay_Diddy_B  :clap:

The top contact on the batteriser is made from sprung loaded fingers (say 0.05mm thick?); board 0.3 or less and 0.1mm for the neg term sleeve. So their total additional length will be of the order 0.4 max.

As you mentioned, you are going to have a weak board after isolation milling, but perhaps potting the component side after assembly would make it more robust? In batterisers deign I guess the sleeve adds a little rigidity to the board also.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 25, 2016, 02:56:43 am

Quote from: rich on January 25, 2016, 02:31:29 am

The top contact on the batteriser is made from sprung loaded fingers (say 0.05mm thick?); board 0.3 or less and 0.1mm for the neg term sleeve. So their total additional length will be of the order 0.4 max.

As you mentioned, you are going to have a weak board after isolation milling, but perhaps potting the component side after assembly would make it more robust? In batterisers deign I guess the sleeve adds a little rigidity to the board also.

I think the spring fingers is something that got right. They will extend when you need them, at the positive end, and compress when they are not needed, for example between two cells. It would be hard for me to make something similar

I am not sure how they would mate with the spring contacts in the fluke 337 clamp meter.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196445;image)

I think that potting the electronics is a good idea. It is not something that I can do.

I am just doing this my (our) entertainment. It is the smallest board that I have ever worked on. There are some challenges making boards for 0.45mm pitch DFNs and soldering them.

By doing it, I am exploring some of difficulties that the Batteroo team might have.

I think that it is feasible to build one for an AA battery that can deliver about 500mA.

The experiments that I documented in this post:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg809012/#msg809012 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg809012/#msg809012)

is the most significant result. It shows the maximum power that can be extracted from AA cell as it is discharged. This is governed by the maximum power theorem and the ESR of the cell. The inductor will add about 100m Ohm to the cell's ESR. This shows that it can not work at the high currents that they are promising.

It is going to be interesting how this plays out.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on January 25, 2016, 03:08:00 am

AMUSING that the current (no pun intended) conversation is interesting - because now the group have roundly nailed the coffin shut for the proposed Batteriser technology.  And Batteroo are themselves in the BatterPoo with Energiser.

In the absence of further entertainment from the Batterooparvar brothers - the combined skills of the forum (with significant input from Jay_Diddy_B) have now focused on whether the mechanical assembly is possible - and viable in most applications.

It seem that with more engineering than expected - the mechanical aspects of assembly are possible for the low-current version, but whether it would actually fit and work as advertised in most applications is highly dubious.

As for delivering the suggested 5x battery life - no thanks.
Myth BUSTED.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on January 25, 2016, 03:09:12 am

If the board was made out of flatflex and if it was possible to manufacture a flatflex with a dimple in it to accept the positive terminal of the battery, then you would only be at the mercy of the thickness of the components sitting on the shoulder of the battery.

Seems too hard to me... Too many "if" statements.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 25, 2016, 03:38:24 am

Quote from: Mr.B on January 25, 2016, 03:09:12 am

Too many "if" statements.

Time for a "Case" statement?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on January 25, 2016, 06:11:30 am

Suggestion: put the inductor under the positive cap, mill out the PCB on the other side for the original positive cap to fit into, then mill out the space under the DFN and mount it upside-down. Like this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196624)

It's funny that we're now doing more engineering than Batteroo and cloning the Batteriser before it comes out, sort of like the Chinese. I mean that in the most positive way, of course. :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 25, 2016, 06:36:25 am

Quote from: amyk on January 25, 2016, 06:11:30 am

It's funny that we're now doing more engineering than Batteroo and cloning the Batteriser before it comes out,

Funny - yes - and absolutely hysterical if EEVblog members come up with a marketable solution ... not that I expect anyone here would really bother trying to promote it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on January 25, 2016, 08:31:24 am

...someone should start a kickstarter campaign...

The "Eeveready!"

 :scared:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 25, 2016, 09:08:19 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 25, 2016, 06:36:25 am

Funny - yes - and absolutely hysterical if EEVblog members come up with a marketable solution ... not that I expect anyone here would really bother trying to promote it.

They can't sue, their patent has all but failed  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on January 25, 2016, 09:12:32 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 25, 2016, 03:38:24 am

Quote from: Mr.B on January 25, 2016, 03:09:12 am

Too many "if" statements.

Time for a "Case" statement?

Can't. The "switch" isn't small enough to fit on the PCB! (http://img.timb.us/emoticon/laugh.gif)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Karlcloudy on January 25, 2016, 10:22:22 am

Quote from: timb on January 25, 2016, 09:12:32 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 25, 2016, 03:38:24 am

Quote from: Mr.B on January 25, 2016, 03:09:12 am

Too many "if" statements.

Time for a "Case" statement?

Can't. The "switch" isn't small enough to fit on the PCB! (http://img.timb.us/emoticon/laugh.gif)

Better "return" to the drawing board then  O0

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 25, 2016, 10:40:19 am

 :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on January 25, 2016, 10:51:07 am

Quote from: Karlcloudy on January 25, 2016, 10:22:22 am

Quote from: timb on January 25, 2016, 09:12:32 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 25, 2016, 03:38:24 am

Quote from: Mr.B on January 25, 2016, 03:09:12 am

Too many "if" statements.

Time for a "Case" statement?

Can't. The "switch" isn't small enough to fit on the PCB! (http://img.timb.us/emoticon/laugh.gif)

Better "return" to the drawing board then  O0

I "C" what you did there!

(I'm soooo sorry! I just...can't stop myself...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on January 25, 2016, 10:56:50 am

Seems the tide on indegogo is really turning from eternal optimism to heavy rage.  Also, 2 less backers than yesterday?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on January 25, 2016, 12:42:21 pm

 You know their next excuse is going to be that they are making even further engineering improvements to bring you only the best Batteriser possible. And you know where they will be getting those ideas....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 25, 2016, 01:47:49 pm

Quote from: amyk on January 25, 2016, 06:11:30 am

Suggestion: put the inductor under the positive cap, mill out the PCB on the other side for the original positive cap to fit into, then mill out the space under the DFN and mount it upside-down. Like this:

I have kind of been that direction. The first board I made had a hole for the positive battery terminal. There are pictures of the board in this message:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg849196/#msg849196 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg849196/#msg849196)

These are the most important pictures:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196238;image)

In this view you can see that an insulator is needed to prevent the components shorting to the top of the cell. The entire surface of the cell is metal and connected to the positive terminal.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196240;image)

I would need to add a contact to make the connection from the positive terminal, in the hole to the board. I would then need add spring contact over the hole to connect the output to the device.

When I built the second one, I removed the hole. It is a much simpler construction.

Anybody got any ideas on how to do the AAA?

This photo gives you an idea. There is about 1/2 of the area available, 10mm versus 14mm diameter.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196665;image)



Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on January 25, 2016, 02:09:11 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 25, 2016, 01:47:49 pm

Anybody got any ideas on how to do the AAA?

I was just thinking you could solve some of the positive "nub" size issues and perhaps even theAAA problem by putting some of the circuitry at the other end of the sleeve ?  I mean you have to have some way of connecting it to both sides of the battery so may as well use the extra flexibility the battery springs give you on the other end as well

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 25, 2016, 05:37:34 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on January 25, 2016, 02:09:11 pm

I was just thinking you could solve some of the positive "nub" size issues and perhaps even theAAA problem by putting some of the circuitry at the other end of the sleeve ?  I mean you have to have some way of connecting it to both sides of the battery so may as well use the extra flexibility the battery springs give you on the other end as well

Uhh, no...  You need to re-think that :)

Adding anything more than an ultra-thin tab for connection to the bottom of the battery is going to increase the total length.  The only place that any circuitry can possibly go to minimize the added length is around the button at the top.

That's the problem that was pointed out by Jay_Diddy_B in the previous sections, though, with some battery holders being designed to need that space around the button to be free when it is now not available with the components being in that space.  Adding anything to the bottom is just going to make the problem worse.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MLXXXp on January 25, 2016, 09:37:45 pm

Quote from: drussell on January 24, 2016, 06:39:31 pm

At least they publically said you should be able to get a refund when it doesn't work in your product.  That could get interesting!  :)

No, that shouldn't be a problem for them. The just need to follow the somewhat standard policy:
"If you're not completely satisfied with your Batteriser product, return it, postage paid, for a full refund. Allow 6 to 8 weeks after we receive your shipment, to process your refund and mail you a check."

Requiring the customer to pay for return shipping will reduce refund requests significantly.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: chris_leyson on January 26, 2016, 01:03:22 am

Hi guys, finally got around to building an LTC3539 boost converter, the chip has been sitting on the bench for months  :=\. Boost a chemical battery, I don't know, let's go for it, give it a shot, nice idea, build it and then "to measure is to know". Classic science.

So I built an LTC3539 boost converter, same as Jay_Diddy_B's design, 1MHz, burst mode with 2x10uF on input and output, it works well, nice one Linear Tech :-+. Not trying to build it small I used a relatively huge inductor, best I could do for a prototype.

Inductor is 8 turns 0.5mm diameter copper onto a Ferroxcube TN14/9/5 4C65, Al is 50nH to 55nH per turn squared (deliberately wrote squared there). Overkill and probably 3u3, peak flux density using volt time product is B = V*t/N*Ae, units are B=Tesla, V=Volts, t = us, Ae = mm² and N = number of turns. V = 1.5 (V), t = 0.5 (us)  (assuming 50% duty cycle), N = 8 (Should have been 7 to get 2u2), Ae = 12.3 (mm²) and then B = 7.6 mT or not very much at all. At least I can justify my inductor choice. That's going to be linear BH loop and almost lossless. Next thing is switching losses...

Nice to see independant engineers choose the same chip, I chose startup voltage, peak current and operating frequency as my parameters. Just thinking out loud.

Going to test two Energizer Max Alkaline batteries with and with out boost converter at 150mA load, seems a good place to start.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cyberdragon on January 26, 2016, 02:34:11 am

Wait...this thread is STILL ALIVE?! And people are...trying to build replicas? :wtf:
I think the only boost converter here is a defibrillator on this topic...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 26, 2016, 02:39:00 am

Quote from: Cyberdragon on January 26, 2016, 02:34:11 am

Wait...this thread is STILL ALIVE?! And people are...trying to build replicas? :wtf:
I think the only boost converter here is a defibrillator on this topic...

Yes still alive, you've got 800% more replies!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 04:38:15 am

Quote from: drussell on January 25, 2016, 05:37:34 pm

Uhh, no...  You need to re-think that :)

Adding anything more than an ultra-thin tab for connection to the bottom of the battery is going to increase the total length.  The only place that any circuitry can possibly go to minimize the added length is around the button at the top.

I actually was considering this the other day, and in my mind, it makes no difference....

If you add, say, 1mm worth of PCB and components to the top of the battery, around the nipple, you still have to add the nipple on top of this, to make contact with the battery holder terminal, this nipple needs to extend the same height off the PCB as the original did off the battery, or you're guaranteeing it won't even make contact in a lot of battery holders...

The end result is no different to adding a 1mm thick PCB to the bottom of the battery....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 04:46:37 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 04:38:15 am

If you add, say, 1mm worth of PCB and components to the top of the battery, around the nipple, you still have to add the nipple on top of this, to make contact with the battery holder terminal, this nipple needs to extend the same height off the PCB as the original did off the battery, or you're guaranteeing it won't even make contact in a lot of battery holders...

The end result is no different to adding a 1mm thick PCB to the bottom of the battery....

There is a difference.

Not all battery holders have a space restriction around the positive cap and for those, this is available space.  On the other hand,  the negative end has no such space and anything placed there will affect every battery compartment.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 04:50:39 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 04:46:37 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 04:38:15 am

If you add, say, 1mm worth of PCB and components to the top of the battery, around the nipple, you still have to add the nipple on top of this, to make contact with the battery holder terminal, this nipple needs to extend the same height off the PCB as the original did off the battery, or you're guaranteeing it won't even make contact in a lot of battery holders...

The end result is no different to adding a 1mm thick PCB to the bottom of the battery....

There is a difference.

Not all battery holders have a space restriction around the positive cap and for those, this is available space.  On the other hand,  the negative end has no such space and anything placed there will affect every battery compartment.

No, there's no difference, unless you're designing a batteriser that only fits in 1 in 100 devices.

In fact, by putting it on the nipple end, you're creating empty space under the new positive terminal, as it has to be raised off the board.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 04:55:55 am

On reflecting on the free space around a battery - I was wondering how many battery compartments have you come across that do or do not have space down the side of the battery?  You know - the cross sectional view of a round battery in a square(ish) hole.

I know this gets right away from the purist geometry and cylindrical products like torches could get left out in the cold, but I just checked a couple of items on my desk (such as my cordless mouse) and there was plenty of space for some SMD magic.


Just throwing some thoughts out of the box here.........

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 05:04:20 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 04:50:39 am

In fact, by putting it on the nipple end, you're creating empty space under the new positive terminal, as it has to be raised off the board.

That positive contact needs only be thick enough to carry the required current - and to have a thickness of insulation between it and the battery cap sufficient to isolate.  That will be able to be rather thin.  Mechanical strength will come from the surrounding board.

At the negative end, the bottom of the battery occupies the entire area, so any circuitry must have a clearly larger impact on overall length.


Would it be out of line to point out that the Batteriser - after so much 'development' - has a design which follows this logic?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on January 26, 2016, 05:08:42 am

Folks, you're all missing the point.  With the stackup problems caused by the Batteriser, it's a perfect time for Bros. Roohparvar to upsell a shorter AA battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 05:10:06 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 05:04:20 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 04:50:39 am

In fact, by putting it on the nipple end, you're creating empty space under the new positive terminal, as it has to be raised off the board.

That positive contact needs only be thick enough to carry the required current - and to have a thickness of insulation between it and the battery cap sufficient to isolate.  That will be able to be rather thin.  Mechanical strength will come from the surrounding board.

At the negative end, the bottom of the battery occupies the entire area, so any circuitry must have a clearly larger impact on overall length.


Would it be out of line to point out that the Batteriser - after so much 'development' - has a design which follows this logic?

no, its THE SAME!

If you put the board at the top, indicated in orange, you still have to extend the terminal 1mm above the height of this board, indicated in red, so that it actually makes contact in 90% of devices! (7 out of 8 I looked at need the 1mm high positive terminal)... doesn't matter if the total board thickness is 0.5mm or 1mm... the board is going to be the same thickness whether its at the positive or negative terminal....

Stick the same thickness board at the negative terminal, and you end up with the same overall length! just with less area for the PCB, as it needs the hole for the extended positive terminal....

Doesn't matter if the board is only 0.5mm thick, and the original terminal extends through it by 0.5mm, it still needs to be extended 1mm above the PCB surface, or it won't make contact in 90% of devices!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ian.M on January 26, 2016, 05:32:52 am

Alkaline cells generally have the seal at the base so a base mounted boost board wouldn't need a sleeve to connect to the other terminal of the cell, it would just need the user to notch the cell jacket where it covers the bottom corner so the board could contact the cathode terminal.  (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Alkaline-battery-english.svg/580px-Alkaline-battery-english.svg.png)
Also the terminals are generally plated steel so the boost board could be held in place magnetically.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 05:38:26 am

Quote from: Ian.M on January 26, 2016, 05:32:52 am

Alkaline cells generally have the seal at the base so a base mounted boost board wouldn't need a sleeve to connect to the other terminal of the cell, it would just need the user to notch the cell jacket where it covers the bottom corner so the board could contact the cathode terminal.  (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Alkaline-battery-english.svg/580px-Alkaline-battery-english.svg.png)
Also the terminals are generally plated steel so the boost board could be held in place magnetically.

Indeed, and you don't have to stuff around with a crappy positive terminal, and shitty stainless steel sleeve, that won't fit in a lot of battery holders.....

*cough* "EEVeready Battery Booster!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 06:11:04 am

OK - let me just clarify the differentiation I was trying to make....

In regards to this statement:

Quote from: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 05:10:06 am

or it won't make contact in 90% of devices!

Don't know about 90% - but I'll use that figure....

If 90% have a space problem at the positive terminal, 100% will have a space problem at the negative.  So there is a difference.  Whether that difference translates into any material issue is another question - and one that Batteroo can have.


FWIW my mouse has a space problem with both.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 06:23:01 am

Quote from: Ian.M on January 26, 2016, 05:32:52 am

Alkaline cells generally have the seal at the base so a base mounted boost board wouldn't need a sleeve to connect to the other terminal of the cell, it would just need the user to notch the cell jacket where it covers the bottom corner so the board could contact the cathode terminal.  (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Alkaline-battery-english.svg/580px-Alkaline-battery-english.svg.png)
Also the terminals are generally plated steel so the boost board could be held in place magnetically.

I like the idea - but aside from the question of space, there are some issues one could encounter in the consumer world.
1. Polarity.  The natural form factor of such a solution will be a disc that will have no inherent mechanical means to ensure correct polarity upon installation.  Perhaps something could be engineered.
2. Series connection.  Someone might see two cells in series with two discs and decide to stack the discs together rather than at the base of each cell.
3. Positive connection.  The positive casing is almost always wrapped by an insulating cover - which would need to be pierced or partly removed for contact.
4. Too small.  Difficult to handle if there are any dexterity issues.  Also, easily lost.  Would recommend the form factor is not completely circular, so if it fell onto the floor it would not roll 5m away.
5. Nowhere to put a brand - certainly not as prominent as the batteriser.


But, be these things as they may - Bob and Co have already done this homework ... haven't they?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ian.M on January 26, 2016, 06:27:08 am

I think you'll find more devices with a recessed +ve contact to prevent a reversed cell connecting, that simply wont work with a booster that has a lower profile +ve terminal than the original cell, than you will find devices that don't have enough -ve contact spring compliance to accept the extra thickness of a slimline boost board.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 06:28:30 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 06:11:04 am

OK - let me just clarify the differentiation I was trying to make....

In regards to this statement:

Quote from: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 05:10:06 am

or it won't make contact in 90% of devices!

Don't know about 90% - but I'll use that figure....

If 90% have a space problem at the positive terminal, 100% will have a space problem at the negative.  So there is a difference.  Whether that difference translates into any material issue is another question - and one that Batteroo can have.


FWIW my mouse has a space problem with both.

What are you even trying to argue?

The battery will be extended by the same amount, no matter what end you put the PCB on, because the positive terminal STILL has to be 1mm higher than the surface its protruding from, whether it be the battery itself, or the PCB.

Are you assuming that the positive terminal won't extend higher than the original battery length? so it doesn't even make contact in 90% of devices?

It really seems you enjoy arguing, but I'm not sure you're actually putting any thought whatsoever into your argument!

Edit: if the battery compartment will accommodate the extra length at the positive terminal, you're not extending the battery length any more than this by having the PCB on the negative terminal!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 07:18:05 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 06:28:30 am

What are you even trying to argue?

Since words aren't adequate, I've made a picture...

Quote

The battery will be extended by the same amount, no matter what end you put the PCB on, because the positive terminal STILL has to be 1mm higher than the surface its protruding from, whether it be the battery itself, or the PCB.

That is an assumption - which is not always true and when it's not true, there is a difference (the point I have been trying to make.)

Quote

Edit: if the battery compartment will accommodate the extra length at the positive terminal, you're not extending the battery length any more than this by having the PCB on the negative terminal!

Again - not always true.


Take this example:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196914;image)

The bulk of the space available for this particular battery compartment is the green area.  The orange area will contain a top (+ve output) and bottom (+ve input) conductive layer separated by a layer of insulation.  The orange area represents the increase in overall length.

I do not, nor have I ever said, that this is the case for all situations with the PCB at the positive end.

Quote from: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 06:28:30 am

What are you even trying to argue?

The difference lies in (to use your figures) the 10% that you are ignoring.

If it escapes your understanding at this point, then I give up.




As for the real world ... 

Quote from: Ian.M on January 26, 2016, 06:27:08 am

I think you'll find more devices with a recessed +ve contact to prevent a reversed cell connecting, that simply wont work with a booster that has a lower profile +ve terminal than the original cell, than you will find devices that don't have enough -ve contact spring compliance to accept the extra thickness of a slimline boost board.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 07:34:31 am

very few devices have a battery holder like that, so if thats what you're basing it on, you're more of an idiot than batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on January 26, 2016, 07:34:50 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 07:18:05 am

Again - not always true.


Take this example:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196914;image)

The bulk of the space available for this particular battery compartment is the green area.  The orange area will contain a top (+ve output) and bottom (+ve input) conductive layer separated by a layer of insulation.  The orange area represents the increase in overall length.

I do not, nor have I ever said, that this is the case for all situations with the PCB at the positive end.

That might be true, IF you ignore the large negative spring that will allow you to accommodate a taller circuitry.
 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 07:42:59 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 07:34:31 am

very few devices have a battery holder like that, so if thats what you're basing it on, you're more of an idiot than batteriser.

Insults aside.

You made a point that there is no difference.  I showed you a case where there is.  When you make absolute statements, be prepared to be challenged.  When shown to be wrong, it does you no credit to spit the dummy.

It was a point of principle - not practicality.



Enough of this.

Let's just get back to the Batteroo show.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 07:49:32 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 07:42:59 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 07:34:31 am

very few devices have a battery holder like that, so if thats what you're basing it on, you're more of an idiot than batteriser.

Insults aside.

You made a point that there is no difference.  I showed you a case where there is.  When you make absolute statements, be prepared to be challenged.  When shown to be wrong, it does you no credit to spit the dummy.

It was a point of principle - not practicality.



Enough of this.

Let's just get back to the Batteroo show.....

you mean when you're an idiot and make a device that physically won't make electrical contact in 90% of battery holders?

that isn't a difference, that's stupid!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 07:55:29 am

Now you've forgotten your original claim.   :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 07:58:41 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 07:55:29 am

Now you've forgotten your original claim.   :palm:

I haven't forgotten anything.

My original claim, was that a "batteriser" that can be guaranteed to physically make electrical contact in a device, would be the same physical dimensions, regardless of whether the PCB is on the positive, or negative terminal... whether or not its too long to fit in the battery holder isn't changed, unless you make a "batteriser" that will only make electrical contact in 10% of devices!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 08:07:10 am

You have changed your use of the word 'guarantee'.

Your original use may not be what you meant, but that's what I picked up on.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 08:10:40 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 08:07:10 am

You have changed your use of the word 'guarantee'.

Your original use may not be what you meant, but that's what I picked up on.

I didn't realise it was a requirement to specify that the device actually make electrical contact in its intended application  |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 26, 2016, 09:13:51 am

Hi group,

I was thinking of starting a new thread "Show us your positive battery terminal', but I decided to post here.  ;)

I have already posted picture from a Fluke 337 and Fluke 189.

Here are some pictures from a Logitech Mouse:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196922;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196924;image)

In this picture I am pulling battery against the negative terminal (spring) so we can see how much space is left:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196926;image)

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 26, 2016, 09:20:34 am

Hi,

Meanwhile...

over on IGG these are the latest comments:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196928;image)


Just in case they get deleted when they wake up in California.



Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 26, 2016, 09:54:14 am

Sounds like Shakeel has no idea what "horrendous" is when it comes to crowd funding campaign. 3 months late is probably the average for hardware projects.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 10:08:15 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 08:10:40 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 08:07:10 am

You have changed your use of the word 'guarantee'.

Your original use may not be what you meant, but that's what I picked up on.

I didn't realise it was a requirement to specify that the device actually make electrical contact in its intended application  |O

Oh FFS.  I give up.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on January 26, 2016, 10:38:05 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 26, 2016, 09:54:14 am

Sounds like Shakeel has no idea what "horrendous" is when it comes to crowd funding campaign. 3 months late is probably the average for hardware projects.

I think that's not the problem.
There isn't even a sign that Butteriser have started the production or plan to start the production soon.

Except deleteing negative posts, there is no sign of activity.
That's much worse than being a little bit late.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on January 26, 2016, 10:59:14 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 10:08:15 am

Oh FFS.  I give up.

FWIW I understood exactly what you are saying.  I think someone is just being argumentative for the sake of it.

You can't guarantee there will be any usable space at either end of the battery, but you have a better chance at the positive end if you can use the space around the nipple.  At least that space will always be there for cells that are stacked in-line, it's the top one in the chain that could be (in fact likely to be) problematic.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 11:04:10 am

Quote from: mikerj on January 26, 2016, 10:59:14 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 10:08:15 am

Oh FFS.  I give up.

FWIW I understood exactly what you are saying.  I think someone is just being argumentative for the sake of it.

You can't guarantee there will be any usable space at either end of the battery, but you have a better chance at the positive end if you can use the space around the nipple.  At least that space will always be there for cells that are stacked in-line, it's the top one in the chain that could be (in fact likely to be) problematic.

But there isn't any more space at the positive end than there is at the negative! Thats the whole point! Except in the very few devices that stack the cells, and even then you can't assume there's any more clearance in the device itself, only where the two cells contact each other!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 11:44:02 am

Quote from: mikerj on January 26, 2016, 10:59:14 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 10:08:15 am

Oh FFS.  I give up.

FWIW I understood exactly what you are saying.  I think someone is just being argumentative for the sake of it.

You can't guarantee there will be any usable space at either end of the battery, but you have a better chance at the positive end if you can use the space around the nipple.  At least that space will always be there for cells that are stacked in-line, it's the top one in the chain that could be (in fact likely to be) problematic.

Thank you.


.... and that's all I'll be saying on this tangent.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 11:47:46 am

Does anyone have any updates on Bob the Batteriser?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on January 26, 2016, 11:49:35 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 11:47:46 am

Does anyone have any updates on Bob the Batteriser?

other than a total lack of any meaningful communication, nope

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ziq8tsi on January 26, 2016, 02:34:04 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 04:50:39 am

In fact, by putting it on the nipple end, you're creating empty space under the new positive terminal, as it has to be raised off the board.

I believe it was suggested earlier in the thread that the best solution* may be to use some kind of spring as the new positive contact.  Devices that need a nipple will find one, and those that are a tight fit or have the cells end to end will squash it flat.

* (other than not having a batteriser at all)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 26, 2016, 03:49:57 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 11:04:10 am

But there isn't any more space at the positive end than there is at the negative!

I must respectfully disagree with you on that one.  There most certainly is more space available around the positive button in many cases and there is never more space available at the negative end.

I agree with most of the others here that in many types of battery holders and any time cells are stacked inline, the space around the button is avaiable to be filled by components without increasing the length at all.  If you put the components at the bottom you will increase the length.  For some holders it may be just as bad for the components to be on top but it is always bad (additional-length-wise) if they're on the bottom.

Quote from: Ian.M on January 26, 2016, 05:32:52 am

Alkaline cells generally have the seal at the base so a base mounted boost board wouldn't need a sleeve to connect to the other terminal of the cell,

Quote from: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 05:38:26 am

Indeed, and you don't have to stuff around with a crappy positive terminal, and shitty stainless steel sleeve, that won't fit in a lot of battery holders.....

You still need to connect to both battery terminals regardless of where the actual circuitry physically goes!  If you essentially make a negative voltage regulator, you still need a wire or sleeve or something going to the positive post!  You can't magically make the converter work with only one connection to the battery!  :palm:

Quote from: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 04:38:15 am

If you add, say, 1mm worth of PCB and components to the top of the battery, around the nipple, you still have to add the nipple on top of this, to make contact with the battery holder terminal, this nipple needs to extend the same height off the PCB as the original did off the battery, or you're guaranteeing it won't even make contact in a lot of battery holders...

You're assuming that the "new" positive button is solid.  It's not, it is a spring contact!  :palm:

Quote from: ziq8tsi on January 26, 2016, 02:34:04 pm

I believe it was suggested earlier in the thread that the best solution* may be to use some kind of spring as the new positive contact.  Devices that need a nipple will find one, and those that are a tight fit or have the cells end to end will squash it flat.

Yes, of course! That is really the only logical thing to do for the positive, and is precisely what Batteroo has always shown to be doing!  It has to be a spingy contact of some sort to stick up and make contact when needed but also be able collapse when necessary to reduce the addition of length as much as possible.

Quote from: Brumby on January 26, 2016, 11:44:02 am

.... and that's all I'll be saying on this tangent.

Agreed!!  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ian.M on January 26, 2016, 04:03:33 pm

Read my post again and refer to the Alkaline cell diagram.  Notch the jacket at the edge of the base any you have a place to contact the positive terminal, so avoiding the sleeve which is unavoidably delicate and likely to jam in the holder. It would of course require a tech savvy user or a special battery jacket notching tool.

However I still think its a sh-te idea no matter which end of the the battery you put it, for most of the reasons that have been explored in detail already

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 26, 2016, 04:44:46 pm

Quote from: Ian.M on January 26, 2016, 04:03:33 pm

Read my post again and refer to the Alkaline cell diagram.  Notch the jacket at the edge of the base any you have a place to contact the positive terminal, so avoiding the sleeve which is unavoidably delicate and likely to jam in the holder. It would of course require a tech savvy user or a special battery jacket notching tool.

Oh, I'm well aware of the standard construction arrangement for most primary cells, it's just that expecting the average consumer to modify their batteries even if it just means cutting some plastic is completely a non-starter.

Also, I don't think the sleeve being flimsy is really a big problem.  It should be possible to make it plenty strong enough for this application without much effort.  I think the robustness of the sleeve is the least of Batteroo's problems.  :)

Quote

However I still think its a sh-te idea no matter which end of the the battery you put it, for most of the reasons that have been explored in detail already

I don't think many here will argue that it's not a completely ridiculous idea in the first place but that's not going to stop engineering-minded people from speculating, analyzing and evaluating this ridiculous idea.  Indeed, the very fact that it is so demonstrably ridiculous is precisely what makes it so entertaining to do so!  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on January 26, 2016, 05:10:21 pm

As this device is able to draw 800% more energy from a single cell, why not use an AAA cell for the penlight device? More room for the electronics, better caps, better inductors, thicker copper, sturdier sleeve, beefier transistor and still almost 1200÷2700×800% = 350% gain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_sizes#Common_battery_sizes).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on January 26, 2016, 08:38:06 pm

 If only...

Well, my Enloop set did come with adapters for C and D cell batteries - the C cell adapter takes the AAA batteries and the D cell takes the AA. One per adapter, it's not like the D call adapter is 4x AA in parallel or anything. They've been gathering dust in a drawer, I've never actually tried them. I guess if you have a low power C or D cell device, but most of the time the device requires the larger capacity batteries for a reason.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on January 26, 2016, 10:59:15 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on January 26, 2016, 11:04:10 am

But there isn't any more space at the positive end than there is at the negative! Thats the whole point! Except in the very few devices that stack the cells, and even then you can't assume there's any more clearance in the device itself, only where the two cells contact each other!

You have already stated that some devices (and gave a rather arbitrary 10% number) will have a non-recessed positive terminal connection, and in this case you do have more space at the positive.  Why are you arguing against yourself?  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on January 27, 2016, 07:28:16 am

Quote from: jippie on January 26, 2016, 05:10:21 pm

As this device is able to draw 800% more energy from a single cell, why not use an AAA cell for the penlight device? More room for the electronics, better caps, better inductors, thicker copper, sturdier sleeve, beefier transistor and still almost 1200÷2700×800% = 350% gain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_sizes#Common_battery_sizes).

Jippie here makes an excellent point. If the gain is so great, why not sacrifice a bit of extra capacity and turn it into an adapter sleeve for a AAA cell instead? Won't run into the issue of batteries with the Butteriser getting stuck inside devices either!

(Of course any high school electronics student knows that the Batteriser is complete horse shit)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on January 27, 2016, 08:04:03 am

Yes but if you are going to start making those types of game changing iterations when then can we expect to see a device that can jump start the outboard on the boat powered only from a single  A23 cell, call me wet behind the ears if you like because trying to push start the boat isn't as easy as one might imagine, apparently...... :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on January 27, 2016, 11:48:44 am

Ammo Jammo is clearly working for Big Negative Terminal.  (and getting a bit boring)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on January 27, 2016, 07:24:30 pm

Next to be sued by the evil Energizer empire.... Samtec!!

https://www.samtec.com/channelyzer (https://www.samtec.com/channelyzer)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on January 27, 2016, 08:42:19 pm

So, they are still "testing" their product.....right.  So they don't even have any mass production going on? or what?  It is interesting their back-and-forth on each and every excuse of the day

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on January 27, 2016, 10:27:23 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on January 27, 2016, 07:28:16 am

(Of course any high school electronics student knows that the Batteriser is complete horse shit)

Get your facts straight and leave innocent animals alone, it is Roohparvar's shit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on January 27, 2016, 11:17:13 pm

I think you actually *are* better off with the PCB on the nipple (I'm sure there's even porn somewhere that backs this up, rule 36 and all). Why? Because you have to cover *both* ends of the battery anyway.

If the PCB is on the negative side, you still have to place a new nipple on top of the existing one to get access to and extend the positive terminal. So now you've extended the battery by the PCB thickness on the negative side and at least 1mm on the positive side.

If the PCB is on the positive side, you can place it in the 1mm space around the existing nipple and have a terminal that extends 1mm, then simply have a piece of metal that's a fraction of a mm on the negative side to access that terminal.

So, since you *have* to access both terminals *and* extend the positive one anyway, it makes more sense to have the PCB on the positive side. Period.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on January 27, 2016, 11:52:15 pm

 So poorly handled, just some more excuses, with NO information. Compare that to the project for that USB power supply/scope/function generator posted in the "What did you buy this week" thread - if you visit the project page, back a while ago they had some issues sourcing components but posted about it on their project page AND continuously show pictures of the prototype and then the finished project as they were created and built. If Batteroo or whatever they want to call themselves is actually 'testing' something then how about posting a picture of it to the people who sent you money? Oh yeah, it doesn't really exist. If it did, they have to be the most idiotic people ever to keep hiding it all - a few simple pictures of the product undergoing testing or just showing a stack of them fresh from the factory or whatever would go a long way to addressing the concerns people are raising. How could you be that dense and not do that, assuming it really existed to show?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 28, 2016, 01:48:09 am

Quote from: timb on January 27, 2016, 11:17:13 pm

If the PCB is on the negative side, you still have to place a new nipple on top of the existing one to get access to and extend the positive terminal. So now you've extended the battery by the PCB thickness on the negative side and at least 1mm on the positive side.

Well, no you would not have to add another isolated contact on the top if you put the circuitry on the negative end but you would still have to connect a wire or sleeve or something to the top terminal, so it makes absolutely no sense to do it that way.  You need to isolate one end or the other through your boost converter but not both.  The other end only needs a connection for reference and power supply for the converter chip regardless of connected load.

Can we please now let this positive/negative end stuff rest?  Electrically you can obviously do it from either end, the electrons don't care but I think most people will agree there is usually more space around the positive "button" end.  Enough said!

This is detracting from the actual engineering and debunking subject at hand!  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on January 28, 2016, 06:02:41 am

New update from Bob on IGG:

In text form (you guys are going to want to quote this one!):

Quote

Dear Indiegogo supporters,

I want to personally thank each and every one of you for continuing to support us while patiently waiting for your orders. I know that some of you are concerned and frustrated by this delay, but rest assured that we have not forgotten you, and shipping your Batterisers to all of our backers is still our highest priority.

We are constantly pushing our contract manufacturer in China to expedite the process so that we can have the final Batterisers ready to ship as soon as possible. Unfortunately, as a small startup competing with larger established corporations for the contract manufacturer's time, our influence and pressure can only go so far. Though we are currently aiming for a February ship date, we still do not have enough information from China to provide a firm shipping date.  Thankfully, by next week, we will have a more solid understanding of the timeline and will be in the best position to provide our backers a projected shipping date. We promise to send you all another update at that time.

While you are waiting for delivery of your Batterisers, I also want to inform you that our engineering team has made a great deal of progress developing a Batteriser for 9 volt batteries.   As a token of our appreciation for your support, we have decided to send every single one of our Indiegogo backers a free 9 Volt Batteriser. The expected release of the 9v Batteriser will be in 2016, and proudly, our Indiegogo supporters will be the very first to enjoy it.   

Sincerely,
Bob Roohparvar
CEO

Screenshot:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=197419;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 28, 2016, 06:19:01 am

I've been banned on Facebook again...  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on January 28, 2016, 06:43:07 am

Quote from: rrinker on January 27, 2016, 11:52:15 pm

So poorly handled, just some more excuses, with NO information.

I'm under the impression that they hired someone to do communications through several social networks. They're probably paying for some given number of messages per week or per month on Twitter, hence all the unrelated posts. Same for Facebook, their messages show little to no actual or current inside knowledge on the topic. Feels as if the communications department has about as much information as we have and are making up today's story as they seem fit.

What I really don't understand is why they're doing seemingly "official" Batteriser updates through Facebook rather than Indigogo where all backers have an account and are automatically notified about updates. If I buy a product from a webshop, I don't want to receive updates through Facebook, I want them from the webshop itself. The third party thing makes sense to me in this respect.

I had to chuckle when I read this Twitter Batteriser update (https://twitter.com/GoBatteriser/status/689813042192912385) linking to an article "[...] Battery Saving Tricks that Actually Work" (http://smartphones.specout.com/stories/3856/smartphone-battery-saving-tricks-that-actually-work#Intro).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 28, 2016, 07:40:40 am

Quote from: Fungus on January 28, 2016, 06:19:01 am

I've been banned on Facebook again...  :popcorn:

LOL, yeah... 

I only log into facebook about once a year but I logged in the other day just to reply to a comment on the Batteriser page.  Surprise, surprise, it never even publically showed up!  Yeah, big surprise!  (It wasn't even nasty!) :)

They are completely sanitizing anything that even remotely critical of their product.  That may be part of the reason they are "communicating" more on facebook than IndieGoGo.  They probably have more moderation control over their facebook page and thus can keep a better grip on the "everything is roses" facade.  Not that they haven't been sanitizing their IGG page, of course....   :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on January 28, 2016, 07:44:52 am

A February ship date; perfectly setting up the "Chinese New Year" excuse.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 28, 2016, 08:37:23 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on January 27, 2016, 08:42:19 pm

So, they are still "testing" their product.....right.  So they don't even have any mass production going on? or what?  It is interesting their back-and-forth on each and every excuse of the day

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=197336;image)


Who is actually behind their Facebook page posting this stuff?
Indiegogo comments are clearly Bob himself, but Facebook?
Sounds like another person who doesn't reallt represent the company just like that idiot fool from the "Fan" Youtube page

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 28, 2016, 08:41:47 am

Quote from: jippie on January 28, 2016, 06:43:07 am

What I really don't understand is why they're doing seemingly "official" Batteriser updates through Facebook rather than Indigogo where all backers have an account and are automatically notified about updates.

Accountability.
Bob is clearly the owner of the indigogo page, and only he and a couple of other official company people (Ali) are allowed to post on there. Bobs photo shows up on every post, so he's very careful what he says over there.

Quote

If I buy a product from a webshop, I don't want to receive updates through Facebook, I want them from the webshop itself. The third party thing makes sense to me in this respect.

The problem is people are interacting on Facebook. If they want an official response then they should post on Indiegogo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 28, 2016, 08:45:42 am

NEW UPDATE ON IGG!

Quote

Dear Indiegogo supporters,

I want to personally thank each and every one of you for continuing to support us while patiently waiting for your orders. I know that some of you are concerned and frustrated by this delay, but rest assured that we have not forgotten you, and shipping your Batterisers to all of our backers is still our highest priority.

We are constantly pushing our contract manufacturer in China to expedite the process so that we can have the final Batterisers ready to ship as soon as possible. Unfortunately, as a small startup competing with larger established corporations for the contract manufacturer's time, our influence and pressure can only go so far. Though we are currently aiming for a February ship date, we still do not have enough information from China to provide a firm shipping date.  Thankfully, by next week, we will have a more solid understanding of the timeline and will be in the best position to provide our backers a projected shipping date. We promise to send you all another update at that time.

While you are waiting for delivery of your Batterisers, I also want to inform you that our engineering team has made a great deal of progress developing a Batteriser for 9 volt batteries.   As a token of our appreciation for your support, we have decided to send every single one of our Indiegogo backers a free 9 Volt Batteriser. The expected release of the 9v Batteriser will be in 2016, and proudly, our Indiegogo supporters will be the very first to enjoy it.   

Sincerely,
Bob Roohparvar
CEO

 Bob Roohparvar

So just the usual working to ward getting a "solid understanding of the timeline"  ::)

Interestingly no mention of the Energizer trademark dispute. That's kinda something financial backers of the company should be aware of.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 28, 2016, 09:06:03 am

Quote from: mikerj on January 28, 2016, 07:44:52 am

A February ship date; perfectly setting up the "Chinese New Year" excuse.

A February ship date is impossible when you are still working to "be in the best position to provide our backers a projected shipping date."
Next update will be the Chinese new year excuse, you don't want to blow your wad on that doozy yet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 28, 2016, 09:41:07 am

Bob's greatest hits. His last 13 comments.
He could have saved himself a whole lot of bother if he was just honest about what's going on.
And of course the old adage a picture tells a thousand words.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=197460;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on January 28, 2016, 09:44:20 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 28, 2016, 08:41:47 am

Quote from: jippie on January 28, 2016, 06:43:07 am

What I really don't understand is why they're doing seemingly "official" Batteriser updates through Facebook rather than Indigogo where all backers have an account and are automatically notified about updates.

Accountability.
Bob is clearly the owner of the indigogo page, and only he and a couple of other official company people (Ali) are allowed to post on there. Bobs photo shows up on every post, so he's very careful what he says over there.

There is a link to this facebook page on their IGG page, that makes it official enough to me. They promote it themselves, so IMHO they're taking responsibility for whatever is being said there in the name of Batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 28, 2016, 11:47:51 am

Hi,

Batteroo could take control of the situation by posting a few photographs. Any photo of a box full of sleeves, or a panel of blank or assembled circuit boards would go a long way to shut people up.

It is ironic, that Bob used to work for Flextronics, one of the worlds top tier contract manufacturers and Batteroo is claiming they are having CM problems  :-//

I would have some of the pieces shipped to the US and have them assembled here. If you are building a 100,000 pieces there has to be some available.

And now we have the 9V Batteriser with no information. Here is a 9V battery datasheet:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=197489;image)

This will have to grow by 2 to 2.5mm.

They say the release of the 9V version is 2016, I would assume that they mean they will ship the 9V battery after they have shipped the 1.5V versions.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 28, 2016, 01:41:58 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 28, 2016, 11:47:51 am

Batteroo could take control of the situation by posting a few photographs. Any photo of a box full of sleeves, or a panel of blank or assembled circuit boards would go a long way to shut people up.

What sleeves?

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 28, 2016, 11:47:51 am

I would have some of the pieces shipped to the US and have them assembled here. If you are building a 100,000 pieces there has to be some available.

What 'pieces'?

I still say it's all lies and will end in some catastrophic event that means they can't ship them and don't have enough money to solve the problem.

(this will be after the Chinese new year delay, obviously...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on January 28, 2016, 01:57:44 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 28, 2016, 11:47:51 am

And now we have the 9V Batteriser with no information. Here is a 9V battery datasheet:

This will have to grow by 2 to 2.5mm.

They say the release of the 9V version is 2016, I would assume that they mean they will ship the 9V battery after they have shipped the 1.5V versions.

A 9V Batteriser is utter nonsense. The voltage of a 9V battery nearing its end plummets under load. No current for a boost converter.  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on January 28, 2016, 02:07:30 pm

 Just another data point - A while back I bought this fancy laptop mouse (big name brand) only to have the left button pretty much stop working after a month. In frustration I got some cheap Chinese mouse at WalMart and - it's been great, nearly 3 years old, and it works great and is able to work down to a very low voltage. No, I've not taken it apart - yet. I know, fail...  Anyway, I got a new (old) multimeter (Fluke 45) and it arrived yesterday. First thing I had to grab to test it was a battery from my mouse - got a reading of 1.15V and the mouse is still working great. A fresh battery (I always carry spares) registered 1.58V, both under no load other than the meter's 10M input impedance. I'm now sufficiently curious to see what the battery reads when the mouse finally stops working and demands a fresh battery. Another one to file under the "already incorporates a boost converter" devices - I think this thing was $8.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 28, 2016, 02:49:14 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 28, 2016, 01:41:58 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 28, 2016, 11:47:51 am

Batteroo could take control of the situation by posting a few photographs. Any photo of a box full of sleeves, or a panel of blank or assembled circuit boards would go a long way to shut people up.

What sleeves?

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 28, 2016, 11:47:51 am

I would have some of the pieces shipped to the US and have them assembled here. If you are building a 100,000 pieces there has to be some available.

What 'pieces'?

I still say it's all lies and will end in some catastrophic event that means they can't ship them and don't have enough money to solve the problem.

(this will be after the Chinese new year delay, obviously...)

I was assuming that the contract manufacturer has done something...

Maybe one of the backers could ask for a few photographs?  ;)

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on January 28, 2016, 07:18:32 pm

I think the only devices I own with 9v batteries are DMMs and smoke alarms, and most people don't have DMMs. Disabling the low battery chirp on smoke alarms - a wonderful idea.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: free_electron on January 28, 2016, 08:19:57 pm

I predict a meteor will strike the assembly plant and destroy the master files.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: gore on January 28, 2016, 08:26:04 pm

Quote

While you are waiting for delivery of your Batterisers, I also want to inform you that our engineering team has made a great deal of progress developing a Batteriser for 9 volt batteries.   As a token of our appreciation for your support, we have decided to send every single one of our Indiegogo backers a free 9 Volt Batteriser. The expected release of the 9v Batteriser will be in 2016, and proudly, our Indiegogo supporters will be the very first to enjoy it.   

Sure they will, along with a Tesla Model S and a trip to low earth orbit for every loyal supporter. But in the meantime, it would be nice to get one of those double and triple A things they've been talking about for a while.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 28, 2016, 08:54:59 pm

Quote

I also want to inform you that our engineering team has made a great deal of progress developing a Batteriser for 9 volt batteries.

Pics of the 'team' working in the lab?

PS: I love how they have a "team" for everything. :-DD   Do they make coffee in teams, too? Answer the phone in teams? Go to the toilet in teams...?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on January 28, 2016, 09:34:10 pm

When the word "team" is used, be aware that there is no science or engineering or even business acumen involved. A favorite word of spin doctors.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 28, 2016, 10:10:00 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 28, 2016, 01:41:58 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 28, 2016, 11:47:51 am

Batteroo could take control of the situation by posting a few photographs. Any photo of a box full of sleeves, or a panel of blank or assembled circuit boards would go a long way to shut people up.

What sleeves?

And that's the thing. People are going to think they are being scammed and the company is producing nothing if they don't show photos.
Batteroo shouldn't be at all surprised at the response from backers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on January 28, 2016, 10:11:11 pm

Team is a german acronym.

Toll
Ein
Anderer
Machts

English:
Great, another one is doing the work.

But I think the Butteriser guys have outsourced the one working guy ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 28, 2016, 10:13:45 pm

Quote from: rrinker on January 28, 2016, 02:07:30 pm

I'm now sufficiently curious to see what the battery reads when the mouse finally stops working and demands a fresh battery.

Well, every know knows, thanks to Batteroo's excellent expert and highly technical videos, that you can't possibly use a PSU to measure that because, you know, the ESR isn't the same as a battery. Doesn't matter that the mouse draws practically nothing, it's just WRONG AND MISLEADING AT BEST  ::)  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 29, 2016, 02:04:35 am

Dammit.

The batteries in my wireless mouse died last night - and I just swapped them out without measuring them.

I'll just see if I can find them....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on January 29, 2016, 02:45:14 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 28, 2016, 10:13:45 pm

Quote from: rrinker on January 28, 2016, 02:07:30 pm

I'm now sufficiently curious to see what the battery reads when the mouse finally stops working and demands a fresh battery.

Well, every know knows, thanks to Batteroo's excellent expert and highly technical videos, that you can't possibly use a PSU to measure that because, you know, the ESR isn't the same as a battery. Doesn't matter that the mouse draws practically nothing, it's just WRONG AND MISLEADING AT BEST  ::)  :palm:

 Right, I'll just play their game and measure an actual battery. Not, of course, that it makes one bit of difference. And I'm just some idiot who got an EE degree some 28 years ago (yikes....) and ended up never really practicing in the field. Just a hobby for me these days, very dormant until I hit upon your YouTube channel. So thanks - for all the money I've now spent  :-DD 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on January 29, 2016, 11:19:37 am

The 9V is interesting, they should have the clips available to connect to the host.
So they probably need a pcb with the dc/dc converter on it which has clips on both sides, one side to connect to the battery and one to connect to the host.
But that will probably not fit in most hosts, so then they need to rotate the second set of clips to the side of the board.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 29, 2016, 11:29:59 am

Quote from: Kjelt on January 29, 2016, 11:19:37 am

The 9V is interesting

And a very very bad idea.
It's almost guaranteed that every house has one or more smoke alarms that run from a 9V battery.
Even if warnings are posted, you can't rely on Joe Average not to think it's a good idea to install a 9V batteriser, because, you know, all the BS marketing Batteroo are shoveling to make it sound like it's the universal solution to the world's problems.
The result is smoke alarms not only failing to work, but failing to warn people of low battery so they can change it. People will die as a result if a 9V Batteriser got popular enough, it's basics statistics.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on January 29, 2016, 11:43:32 am

On that basis some countries might ban "the product" altogether, hopefully before peoples lives are put at risk, the oversight and hindsight excuse by particular departments is no longer acceptable by the general public.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 29, 2016, 11:54:32 am

This may be a moot point.

They have to deliver something first....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on January 29, 2016, 12:15:19 pm

I'm not entirely sure why but I just Googled the word "moot".

Moot
1.  subject to debate, dispute or uncertainty.
2.  having little or no practical relevance.

Mooteriser is hereby submitted.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 29, 2016, 12:24:38 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on January 29, 2016, 12:15:19 pm

Mooteriser is hereby submitted.

Right then... You get the royalties for the name, but I get included in the acknowledgements - OK?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on January 29, 2016, 01:12:14 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 29, 2016, 11:29:59 am

And a very very bad idea.
The result is smoke alarms not only failing to work, but failing to warn people of low battery so they can change it. People will die as a result if a 9V Batteriser got popular enough, it's basics statistics.

Very good point but a simple statement in the manual not to use it in safety critical devices should suffice.
The same rules as other strange rules in manuals, like "do not use the plastick bag of this product with children they may suffocate" or "don't put any living beings in this microwave device" etc.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 29, 2016, 01:25:30 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on January 29, 2016, 01:12:14 pm

Very good point but a simple statement in the manual not to use it in safety critical devices should suffice.

You must have some pretty clued up consumers!!

Quote

The same rules as other strange rules in manuals, like "do not use the plastick bag of this product with children they may suffocate" or "don't put any living beings in this microwave device" etc.

Except for the fact that the reason for those warnings is rather apparent, once they've been pointed out.  With the batteriser, it's not.  When people don't see the reasoning, they tend to forget or ignore it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on January 29, 2016, 01:28:30 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on January 29, 2016, 01:12:14 pm

Very good point but a simple statement in the manual not to use it in safety critical devices should suffice.

Oh, you know that Batteroo would tout their 9V Batterisers as a LIFESAVING device because it can extend the lifetime of batteries in smoke alarms by 800%.  There will be no such warning in the manual (that will never be released by the way).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on January 29, 2016, 03:48:01 pm

Quote from: lpickup on January 29, 2016, 01:28:30 pm

Oh, you know that Batteroo would tout their 9V Batterisers as a LIFESAVING device because it can extend the lifetime of batteries in smoke alarms by 800%.  There will be no such warning in the manual (that will never be released by the way).

Considering the customers Batteroo is bound to have, the only warning they should have on their manual is "not for anal insertion".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 29, 2016, 04:32:10 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on January 29, 2016, 11:43:32 am

On that basis some countries might ban "the product" altogether, hopefully before peoples lives are put at risk, the oversight and hindsight excuse by particular departments is no longer acceptable by the general public.

There are already smoke detectors with 1.5V AA batteries, like this (http://www.amazon.com/Kidde-KN-COSM-BA-Battery-Operated-Combination-Monoxide/dp/B00PC5S0PA) random one, which uses 2 AA batteries. So even the 1.5V version should be banned then.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on January 29, 2016, 04:47:02 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on January 29, 2016, 03:48:01 pm

Quote from: lpickup on January 29, 2016, 01:28:30 pm

Oh, you know that Batteroo would tout their 9V Batterisers as a LIFESAVING device because it can extend the lifetime of batteries in smoke alarms by 800%.  There will be no such warning in the manual (that will never be released by the way).

Considering the customers Batteroo is bound to have, the only warning they should have on their manual is "not for anal insertion".

But that has a valid use case: Anal Vibrator (Now with 800% More Prostate Stimulation!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on January 29, 2016, 04:50:22 pm

Quote from: timb on January 29, 2016, 04:47:02 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on January 29, 2016, 03:48:01 pm

Quote from: lpickup on January 29, 2016, 01:28:30 pm

Oh, you know that Batteroo would tout their 9V Batterisers as a LIFESAVING device because it can extend the lifetime of batteries in smoke alarms by 800%.  There will be no such warning in the manual (that will never be released by the way).

Considering the customers Batteroo is bound to have, the only warning they should have on their manual is "not for anal insertion".

But that has a valid use case: Anal Vibrator (Now with 800% More Prostate Stimulation!)

 :-DD I spilled my coffee! You owe me a new keyboard!  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on January 29, 2016, 04:53:18 pm

Quote from: timb on January 29, 2016, 04:47:02 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on January 29, 2016, 03:48:01 pm

Quote from: lpickup on January 29, 2016, 01:28:30 pm

Oh, you know that Batteroo would tout their 9V Batterisers as a LIFESAVING device because it can extend the lifetime of batteries in smoke alarms by 800%.  There will be no such warning in the manual (that will never be released by the way).

Considering the customers Batteroo is bound to have, the only warning they should have on their manual is "not for anal insertion".

But that has a valid use case: Anal Vibrator (Now with 800% More Prostate Stimulation!)

That might explain why Batteroo haven't shipped anything. They have been too busy testing the device ...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on January 29, 2016, 04:57:38 pm

With 120.000/4=30.000 batterieser packs and 6.000.000.000 people in the world, I don't think this will be much of a problem any time soon. We as EEVblog-visitors are seeing these huge problems because we forget to look around to see how large the rest of the world is.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on January 29, 2016, 05:02:32 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on January 29, 2016, 04:50:22 pm

Quote from: timb on January 29, 2016, 04:47:02 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on January 29, 2016, 03:48:01 pm

Quote from: lpickup on January 29, 2016, 01:28:30 pm

Oh, you know that Batteroo would tout their 9V Batterisers as a LIFESAVING device because it can extend the lifetime of batteries in smoke alarms by 800%.  There will be no such warning in the manual (that will never be released by the way).

Considering the customers Batteroo is bound to have, the only warning they should have on their manual is "not for anal insertion".

But that has a valid use case: Anal Vibrator (Now with 800% More Prostate Stimulation!)

 :-DD I spilled my coffee! You owe me a new keyboard!  :-DD

I'll send you a wireless one so you can benefit from a Batteriser. (http://img.timb.us/emoticon/laugh.gif)

 Tip of the Day: If you use rechargeable batteries with your anal spelunking devices, be sure to mark as such them with a Magic Marker, so you don't accidentally reuse them in your toothbrush.

(I asked a friend why "ANAL" was written on a pair of batteries in the charger at his house. That was the reason. I also learned some mysteries are better left unsolved. True story.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on January 29, 2016, 05:04:47 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on January 29, 2016, 03:48:01 pm

Considering the customers Batteroo is bound to have, the only warning they should have on their manual is "not for anal insertion".

You owe me a new keyboard

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on January 29, 2016, 09:07:41 pm

Considering the force needed to remove some 9V battery clips, I hope they are using some serious PCB substrate, or the Butteriser will only last a couple of battery changes anyway.

Also if they are 'giving' the 9V devices away to backer as 'thanks', perhaps they have less liability for performance of the product?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 29, 2016, 09:17:19 pm

Hi,

Let us do a little financial analysis for a change.

The IGG campaign raised $394,544.

I am not sure if that includes the amounts collected for shipping or if that is the total raised from sales of the 'product'.

Let's round that up to $400,000. At 2.50 each that is 160,000 Batterisers.

The CM will probably make around 10% profit.

So they are looking at making less than $40,000 for assembling 160,000 pieces. That is a lot work for a relatively small reward.

You see why they are having difficulty getting the CM's attention.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 29, 2016, 09:21:26 pm

Hi,

On a technical note, how do you attach the stainless sleeve to the PCB circuit board?

I did a quick Google search and the general advice was:

1) Degrease and roughen the surface.

2) Use an acid flux

3) Use a tin/silver soldering alloy.

These don't sound compatible with a pcb loaded with parts.

Any ideas?

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 29, 2016, 09:33:49 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 29, 2016, 09:17:19 pm

Hi,
Let us do a little financial analysis for a change.
The IGG campaign raised $394,544.
I am not sure if that includes the amounts collected for shipping or if that is the total raised from sales of the 'product'.

No it doesn't. AFAIL they have not stated the shipping cost yet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 29, 2016, 09:37:02 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on January 29, 2016, 09:17:19 pm

Let's round that up to $400,000.

You need to take off about 8% for IGG + credit card fees.
That only leaves them with $365k in the bank.
But they have "up to $1M" in venture capital funding as well.

Quote

So they are looking at making less than $40,000 for assembling 160,000 pieces. That is a lot work for a relatively small reward.

They will likely be making a loss if they ship. But that's not the point for them, they are looking to flip the company for a big profit.
Too bad that's not going to happen now that they have almost certainly lost their patent and their trademark, no one will touch them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on January 30, 2016, 12:32:55 am

They make them in China and probably let the chinese ship them as well to the end clients.
We all know from Ebay how cheap the chinese mail is.
So i bet on less than $1,50 production plus shipping.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ruurdjan on January 30, 2016, 01:37:40 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 15, 2016, 10:39:25 pm

Quote from: lincoln on January 15, 2016, 09:08:30 pm

A shame I don't have any any more but I thing the keyboard runs down to below 1v per cell. It has been a while so i don't remember.

I think someone busted the Apple keyboard on here too, IIRC it did go down to 1V or less.

I though I'd chime in. I've been noticing that once my Apple Keyboard starts complaining about 'low batteries', the actual batteries are not nearly dead. I'm using 2x AA Varta batteries with the Varta Smart Charger (the one in one of Dave's videos), and if I recharge the batteries as soon as OS X tells me they've 'low', it will charge about 425 mAh before they're deemed full by the charger.
These batteries (http://www.en.varta-consumer.com/en/products/rechargeables/overview/standarddevices/rechargeableaccurtuaa2100mah) and the charger from:
EEVblog #822 (https://youtu.be/PxZ7M1hZqXk).

I realize this is by no means scientific, but it seems Apple's very conservative on the low battery notification.
I'll let them run out completely next time and report back how 'empty' they really where. That'll take a few weeks...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on January 30, 2016, 03:23:44 am

My Apple keyboard batteries seem to have really long life even after it tells me to replace them. Unlike my Apple mouse.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 30, 2016, 03:27:16 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 29, 2016, 02:04:35 am

Dammit.

The batteries in my wireless mouse died last night - and I just swapped them out without measuring them.

I'll just see if I can find them....

OK, found my old batteries - but since they have had time to rest, they have recovered a bit.  So now they're back in the mouse so I can run them down again.

2 hours in and they're still working.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 30, 2016, 07:05:32 am

OK - The batteries are dead - again.  They are Dick Smith branded AA alkaline and lasted around 7 hours in a Logitech cordless mouse.

Measured voltage upon removal: 0.935v and 0.912v



So here's an interesting proposition for you....

If my mouse can function happily on, let's say, 1v per cell - what will give me more 'life' out of the battery?  A Batteriser targeting 1.5v or one adjusted to give 1.0v?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 30, 2016, 07:14:01 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 30, 2016, 07:05:32 am

If my mouse can function happily on, let's say, 1v per cell - what will give me more 'life' out of the battery?  A Batteriser targeting 1.5v or one adjusted to give 1.0v?

Assuming the same efficiency of both 1.5V and 1.0V converters, then the 1.0V converter will give you more life, the ESR sucks right at that tail end, you want the lest current possible.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 30, 2016, 07:18:41 am

The answer is kinda obvious...


SO - who's going to be the first to hack their Batteriser?!!!!
(assuming they actually ship, of course.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on January 30, 2016, 08:09:25 am

Quote from: WN1X on January 30, 2016, 03:23:44 am

My Apple keyboard batteries seem to have really long life even after it tells me to replace them. Unlike my Apple mouse.

I have to say that I gave up with Apple wireless keyboards, mice and trackpads some time ago, short battery life was one reason (that I can't see Batteriser improving more than a couple of percent, the cells were pretty much depleted), pairing another. A case of style over substance. Wired, it's the future!

As a generalisation, non-bluetooth wireless keyboards and mouses just don't seem to suffer either the short battery life or of course the pairing nonsense, and it's a reason I now avoid despite the non-Bluetooth devices requiring a USB dongle.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on January 30, 2016, 09:43:12 am

Quote from: Howardlong on January 30, 2016, 08:09:25 am

Quote from: WN1X on January 30, 2016, 03:23:44 am

My Apple keyboard batteries seem to have really long life even after it tells me to replace them. Unlike my Apple mouse.

I have to say that I gave up with Apple wireless keyboards, mice and trackpads some time ago, short battery life was one reason (that I can't see Batteriser improving more than a couple of percent, the cells were pretty much depleted), pairing another. A case of style over substance. Wired, it's the future!

As a generalisation, non-bluetooth wireless keyboards and mouses just don't seem to suffer either the short battery life or of course the pairing nonsense, and it's a reason I now avoid despite the non-Bluetooth devices requiring a USB dongle.

A BTLE keyboard would have much, much, much greater battery life.

As for pairing, I do agree. I've always had a hard time getting the thing in pairing mode (I have an original three battery unit, though I hear the later two battery models fix some of the minor issues).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on January 30, 2016, 09:52:35 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 29, 2016, 09:37:02 pm

...They will likely be making a loss if they ship. But that's not the point for them, they are looking to flip the company for a big profit...

Could be possible, but that's only a conspiracy. Equally ridiculous as the statement you are in the pocket of the battery industry.
There is no data to prove this, keep to the facts, all kind of journalists are following this tread.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 30, 2016, 10:40:25 am

Quote from: Galenbo on January 30, 2016, 09:52:35 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 29, 2016, 09:37:02 pm

...They will likely be making a loss if they ship. But that's not the point for them, they are looking to flip the company for a big profit...

Could be possible, but that's only a conspiracy. Equally ridiculous as the statement you are in the pocket of the battery industry.
There is no data to prove this, keep to the facts, all kind of journalists are following this tread.

Well, certainly the Batteroo crowd would have to be looking at this whole exercise as a profit creating venture.  The only question is: How?

 - They could be in it as a supplier who makes profit from the sale of a product.  (I hear giggles in the background)
 - They could be looking to sell the technology and/or the company
 - Or they could be looking at some 'creative accounting' methods to turn a profit

Certainly I must agree that this is all speculation at this time, but there are always hints in the finer details if you pay close enough attention.  While these may not be concrete enough to accurately predict the outcome, they should at least point to possibilities - and that we should be prepared for any of those.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on January 30, 2016, 11:00:51 am

Quote from: Galenbo on January 30, 2016, 09:52:35 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 29, 2016, 09:37:02 pm

...They will likely be making a loss if they ship. But that's not the point for them, they are looking to flip the company for a big profit...

Could be possible, but that's only a conspiracy. Equally ridiculous as the statement you are in the pocket of the battery industry.
There is no data to prove this, keep to the facts, all kind of journalists are following this tread.

That's not a conspiracy, that's what VC companies are there for.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 30, 2016, 11:50:58 am

Quote from: Galenbo on January 30, 2016, 09:52:35 am

Could be possible, but that's only a conspiracy. Equally ridiculous as the statement you are in the pocket of the battery industry.
There is no data to prove this, keep to the facts, all kind of journalists are following this tread.

Why do you think a VC company invested money in Batteriser?
Who do you think now has the controlling stake in the company?
Do you seriously think that a VC company does not have a exit strategy?
(Hint: It's VC strategy 101)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 30, 2016, 11:58:56 am

Quote from: Galenbo on January 30, 2016, 09:52:35 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 29, 2016, 09:37:02 pm

...They will likely be making a loss if they ship. But that's not the point for them, they are looking to flip the company for a big profit...

Could be possible, but that's only a conspiracy.

Nope. Flipping companies is what suited individuals like the Batteriser Brothers do. It's their raison d'etre.

Quote from: Galenbo on January 30, 2016, 09:52:35 am

Equally ridiculous as the statement you are in the pocket of the battery industry.

Fail.

Those two statements aren't even from the same planet. One is everyday business. One is pure fantasy.

Selling $2.50 items by mail, trying to recover $1 million in VC investment and make a profit? THAT would be "ridiculous".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 30, 2016, 12:01:59 pm

Quote from: Brumby on January 30, 2016, 10:40:25 am

Well, certainly the Batteroo crowd would have to be looking at this whole exercise as a profit creating venture.  The only question is: How?
 - They could be in it as a supplier who makes profit from the sale of a product.  (I hear giggles in the background)
 - They could be looking to sell the technology and/or the company
 - Or they could be looking at some 'creative accounting' methods to turn a profit

The Roohparvar's can have the best intentions in the world, to stay in the business and never sell it at any cost etc.
But it's most likely they no longer have the controlling interest in it. They took big money from a VC investment firm:
http://sktainnopartners.com/welcome-to-batteroo/ (http://sktainnopartners.com/welcome-to-batteroo/)
There is a reason that the VC firm have put their own people on the Batteroo board of directors.

Oh, and BTW,  the VC company describes Bob as a "serial entrepreneur".

The goal of these firms is to make a return on thei investment as quickly as possible, usually by selling the company privately, or floating it and then selling the shares.
There are other ways, like keeping the compny in their portfolio and using it to recapitalise, but I don't believe that's as common.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on January 30, 2016, 08:49:50 pm

I'm sure I've seen quite some "speculation" about Chinese New Year, but I don't recall having seen these comments yet.

Quote

Eric CHOI
2 days ago

“Thankfully, by next week, we will have a more solid understanding of the timeline and will be in the best position to provide our backers a projected shipping date.”…

There will be a holiday in China the week after next week, actually the factories are all in the hibernation state already becoz most workers are going back home for the holiday and come back to work after the holiday, so there will be further delay until 15 Feb or later, at least… no update could be provided by the factory.

Quote

Eric CHOI
2 days ago
by the way, we will all support the project and trust you guys had already tried the best to let us have the Batteriser as soon as possible, Thank you very much!!

Quote

Bob Roohparvar
Campaigner 1 day ago
Yes, you are right that the Chinese New Year will present challenges to shipping in February.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on January 30, 2016, 10:25:44 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on January 29, 2016, 01:12:14 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 29, 2016, 11:29:59 am

And a very very bad idea.
The result is smoke alarms not only failing to work, but failing to warn people of low battery so they can change it. People will die as a result if a 9V Batteriser got popular enough, it's basics statistics.

Very good point but a simple statement in the manual not to use it in safety critical devices should suffice.
The same rules as other strange rules in manuals, like "do not use the plastick bag of this product with children they may suffocate" or "don't put any living beings in this microwave device" etc.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=189833;image)

They're promoting Batteriser for use in medical equipment and emergency devices. You think they'll stop at smoke detectors?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: chris_leyson on January 31, 2016, 01:46:17 am

I couldn't wait, so I tried two Alkaline batteries, Energizer Max + Power Seal, first battery has an 11 Ohm load and the second has an LTC3539 boost converter, output set to 1.5V, driving an 11 Ohm load.

From an energy supplied point of view, consider the area under the green curve, after 20.2 hours the battery voltage has dropped to 1.0V, the power available to the load is only 45% of what it was when the battery voltage was, say, 1.5V (1.0*1.0/1.5*1.5) = 45%.
The area under the green curve, up to 20.2hr, is 9.76 kJ. If that energy were used to supply a 100% efficienct boost converter with its output set to 1.5V, then for an 11 ohm resistive load, P = 1.5²/11 = 204.5mW, time = Energy/Power = 9.76E3/.2045 s, or 9.76E3/0.2045/3600 hours or 13.25 hours. So maybe I could squeeze another 3 hours out of the battery if the converter were 100% efficient. If my battery powered product works down to 1V i.e. for 20.2 hours then the best I could get is 13.25/20.2 or 66% battery life at full power.

(http://)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: chris_leyson on January 31, 2016, 01:49:48 am

Damn it, forgot to attach graph

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: chris_leyson on January 31, 2016, 01:59:06 am

66% battery life at full power equates to 30% to 40% more batteries in land fill or whatever.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cyberdragon on January 31, 2016, 02:53:19 am

Quote from: Nerull on January 30, 2016, 10:25:44 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on January 29, 2016, 01:12:14 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 29, 2016, 11:29:59 am

And a very very bad idea.
The result is smoke alarms not only failing to work, but failing to warn people of low battery so they can change it. People will die as a result if a 9V Batteriser got popular enough, it's basics statistics.

Very good point but a simple statement in the manual not to use it in safety critical devices should suffice.
The same rules as other strange rules in manuals, like "do not use the plastick bag of this product with children they may suffocate" or "don't put any living beings in this microwave device" etc.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=189833;image)

They're promoting Batteriser for use in medical equipment and emergency devices. You think they'll stop at smoke detectors?

Really Batteriser? I bet there are advanced emergency devices out there that are smart enough (and smarter than bob) to compute that battery voltage should drop over time, realize it's not because some idjit installed a batteriser, then brick itself with an error code of "battery monitor failure". :clap:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_monitor_a_battery (http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_monitor_a_battery)

P.S...since people seem to be building batterisers here...car batterizer anyone? >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on January 31, 2016, 05:24:25 am

Quote from: Cyberdragon on January 31, 2016, 02:53:19 am

P.S...since people seem to be building batterisers here...car batterizer anyone? >:D

Don't let Boob see this!
He'll be touting Motorisers that offer 800% better fuel economy!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on January 31, 2016, 02:11:00 pm

Quote from: SL4P on January 31, 2016, 05:24:25 am

Quote from: Cyberdragon on January 31, 2016, 02:53:19 am

P.S...since people seem to be building batterisers here...car batterizer anyone? >:D

Don't let Boob see this!
He'll be touting Motorisers that offer 800% better fuel economy!

Or a batteriser for your Tesla, 800% range ;-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: chris_leyson on January 31, 2016, 04:02:22 pm

Last week while I was busy killing off a few Energizer alkaline batteries with and without a batteriser clone, I found this under my desk whilst rummaging for a Coiltronics six winding transformer...

A dead bat:-
(http://)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on January 31, 2016, 04:45:52 pm

Quote from: chris_leyson on January 31, 2016, 04:02:22 pm

Last week while I was busy killing off a few Energizer alkaline batteries with and without a batteriser clone, I found this under my desk whilst rummaging for a Coiltronics six winding transformer...

A dead bat:-
(http://)

If only it has a batteriser installed, 800% longer life...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on January 31, 2016, 05:05:28 pm

If it's lasts 800% longer, does that mean it has nine lives? A Catteriser?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on January 31, 2016, 05:20:07 pm

Quote from: chris_leyson on January 31, 2016, 04:02:22 pm

Last week while I was busy killing off a few Energizer alkaline batteries with and without a batteriser clone, I found this under my desk whilst rummaging for a Coiltronics six winding transformer...

A dead bat:-
(http://)

What the hell???  :wtf:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on January 31, 2016, 08:22:23 pm

I'm pretty sure their facebook page was just done as a piss take, to keep us all amused.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=198181;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on January 31, 2016, 08:44:25 pm

I wonder how long it will take for this to be cleansed...

Edit: Not very Long...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Supercharged on January 31, 2016, 09:06:16 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on January 31, 2016, 08:22:23 pm

I'm pretty sure their facebook page was just done as a piss take, to keep us all amused.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=198181;image)

i bet methodes 1,2 and 4 are better at it than 3 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ErikTheNorwegian on January 31, 2016, 09:09:39 pm

Batteriser is now also a charger? Yes..right, and the world is flat!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: _Andrew_ on January 31, 2016, 09:17:53 pm

Will batteriser ever get to Australia or will they be too in fear of sailing off the edge of the earth trying to deliver them.

Although if they use unicorns to deliver them it all should be OK.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Supercharged on January 31, 2016, 09:22:29 pm

Quote from: _Andrew_ on January 31, 2016, 09:17:53 pm

Will batteriser ever get to Australia or will they be too in fear of sailing off the edge of the earth trying to deliver them.

Although if they use unicorns to deliver them it all should be OK.

I bet they're  to scared of dave getting his hands on one to deliver it to australia

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on February 01, 2016, 12:41:14 am

Quote from: Supercharged on January 31, 2016, 09:22:29 pm

I bet they're  to scared of dave getting his hands on one to deliver it to australia

It's the most anticipated episode of the EEVblog so far! 800% more than Dave's regular videos in fact ;-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on February 01, 2016, 01:33:00 am

Quote from: Supercharged on January 31, 2016, 09:06:16 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on January 31, 2016, 08:22:23 pm

I'm pretty sure their facebook page was just done as a piss take, to keep us all amused.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=198181;image)

i bet methodes 1,2 and 4 are better at it than 3 :-DD

I'll add an option 5 - Sitting on it.

Nothing like a little body heat to give the chemistry a bit of a nudge.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 01, 2016, 01:55:44 am

Quote from: Halcyon on February 01, 2016, 12:41:14 am

Quote from: Supercharged on January 31, 2016, 09:22:29 pm

I bet they're  to scared of dave getting his hands on one to deliver it to australia

It's the most anticipated episode of the EEVblog so far! 800% more than Dave's regular videos in fact ;-)

Unlike Batterisers claims, that one might be plausible!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on February 01, 2016, 11:35:25 am

I must have missed this before, but it seems Batteriser has been on Wikipedia since October 2015: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batteriser

There is clearly an edit made by an anonymous user (Roohparvar's or "Fan Page" perhaps?) which boasts about the "UL testing". I'll let you sift through the history to find that one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 01, 2016, 12:07:08 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on February 01, 2016, 11:35:25 am

I must have missed this before, but it seems Batteriser has been on Wikipedia since October 2015: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batteriser
There is clearly an edit made by an anonymous user (Roohparvar's or "Fan Page" perhaps?) which boasts about the "UL testing". I'll let you sift through the history to find that one.

First mention of that I think.
I don't think it's going to last on there long, isn't it just blatant product advertising?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on February 01, 2016, 01:04:01 pm

The UL mention was rolled back in October as being promotional in nature. So yeah, gonski.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SpidersWeb on February 02, 2016, 03:55:44 am

Good lord, I can't believe these haven't even started shipping yet. "Ready for the new year" my ass.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cyberdragon on February 02, 2016, 04:20:15 am

Guys, guys, guys...the reason the Batterisers aren't shipping is because they actually come from the dimension and planet Outer Zone. They're having trouble getting supplies of Morotanium converters which channel the untapped magical energy around the batteries and convert it to usable electricity.  ;D

P.S...soon...this will happen...

*The electronic community throws something at Bob*
*Bob fails to dodge it*
Bob: "OW! My popularity!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on February 02, 2016, 04:32:41 am

Meanwhile we're all waiting at Twilight Limits.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on February 02, 2016, 10:41:20 am

Quote from: SpidersWeb on February 02, 2016, 03:55:44 am

Good lord, I can't believe these haven't even started shipping yet. "Ready for the new year" my ass.

It was obvious what was up as soon as the stream of weasel words started appearing in December.

eg. "We expect to have a clearer picture of the situation next week"

 :-DD

(Grab a phone and ask them today...?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on February 04, 2016, 11:33:02 pm

The week is almost over ;-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on February 05, 2016, 12:14:21 am

Quote from: meeder on February 04, 2016, 11:33:02 pm

The week is almost over ;-)

Just be glad they aren't Brazilians, or Carnival would be an excuse for pushing the deadline another week... or 2 if you consider recovering from the massive hangover.   :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on February 05, 2016, 12:54:05 am

Maybe they are Brazilian Chinese? Lol

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on February 05, 2016, 02:39:21 am

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on February 05, 2016, 12:14:21 am

Just be glad they aren't Brazilians, or Carnival would be an excuse for pushing the deadline another week... or 2 if you consider recovering from the massive hangover.   :popcorn:

They are probably still recovering from the Australia Day long weekend ;-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on February 05, 2016, 03:20:27 am

March...

March........

Does anybody have something happening in March?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on February 05, 2016, 03:48:28 am

Quote from: Brumby on February 05, 2016, 03:20:27 am

March...

March........

Does anybody have something happening in March?

*checks diary* It seems Easter long weekend falls in March this year. So I guess we won't be hearing from Roohparvar from the time Hot Cross Buns start hitting supermarket shelves to well after Easter. That should write off most of March and April. Someone should start a Batteriser advent calendar, but instead of a surprise, you just get disappointment. ;-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Stupid Beard on February 05, 2016, 04:58:02 am

Quote from: Halcyon on February 05, 2016, 03:48:28 am

*checks diary* It seems Easter long weekend falls in March this year. So I guess we won't be hearing from Roohparvar from the time Hot Cross Buns start hitting supermarket shelves to well after Easter. That should write off most of March and April. Someone should start a Batteriser advent calendar, but instead of a surprise, you just get disappointment. ;-)

Easter stuff was on the supermarket shelves in January here. I was disgusted. There were no 2 for 1 offers on easter eggs.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on February 05, 2016, 08:39:31 am

Do you think perhaps Batteriser are planning an April fools gag? Like they've completed production and will begin shipping?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on February 05, 2016, 02:06:11 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on February 05, 2016, 08:39:31 am

Do you think perhaps Batteriser are planning an April fools gag?

"There is no Batteriser and we've got your money! April fools!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on February 08, 2016, 07:46:36 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on February 05, 2016, 12:14:21 am

Quote from: meeder on February 04, 2016, 11:33:02 pm

The week is almost over ;-)

Just be glad they aren't Brazilians, or Carnival would be an excuse for pushing the deadline another week... or 2 if you consider recovering from the massive hangover.   :popcorn:

It's Mardi Gras here tomorrow. Just wait for it...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on February 08, 2016, 08:03:34 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on February 08, 2016, 07:46:36 pm

It's Mardi Gras here tomorrow. Just wait for it...

I've always wondered what it would be like to be in New Orleans during Mardi Gras. Is it as fun as Hollywood makes us believe?

Giving it a better though, if the Batterizer guys are very religious, christian people, they may not release it for the next 42 days due to Lent. Just until until after Easter... we do have April 1st on that week, and I don't think it's a coincidence!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rx8pilot on February 08, 2016, 08:10:50 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on February 08, 2016, 08:03:34 pm

I've always wondered what it would be like to be in New Orleans during Mardi Gras. Is it as fun as Hollywood makes us believe?

If being in a marginally controlled mass of drunken people that is peppered with thieves is fun, then it is a BLAST! After my Mardi Gras experiences, I would never go back.
Probably more fun than Hollywood makes it seem, but the wrong king of fun for me.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on February 08, 2016, 08:18:26 pm

Quote from: rx8pilot on February 08, 2016, 08:10:50 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on February 08, 2016, 08:03:34 pm

I've always wondered what it would be like to be in New Orleans during Mardi Gras. Is it as fun as Hollywood makes us believe?

If being in a marginally controlled mass of drunken people that is peppered with thieves is fun, then it is a BLAST! After my Mardi Gras experiences, I would never go back.
Probably more fun than Hollywood makes it seem, but the wrong king of fun for me.

I see what you mean. Possibly the same reason why I stay at home during Carnival in Brazil or sometimes go to a quiet beach.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on February 08, 2016, 08:42:14 pm

Three years ago I went to New Orleans but a full week before Mardi Gras.

It wasn't crowded and had a blast. Not many drunks either, and since they were pretty much ready for Mardi Gras every place was fully stocked.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on February 08, 2016, 11:48:54 pm

Any reason we're talking about Mardis Gras instead of the original subject?

Is it because 'Mardis Gras' is also known as 'Fat Tuesday' ... and we expect there is a 'Fat Chance' that the Batteriser will ship?

... or are we just getting bored with the whole deal?



Are there any further grumblings from social media... or news of any kind?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on February 09, 2016, 12:29:10 am

I think it was brought up as another excuse they might use to delay it more.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on February 09, 2016, 01:24:17 am

Quote from: miguelvp on February 09, 2016, 12:29:10 am

I think it was brought up as another excuse they might use to delay it more.

yup, we still have Chinese new year, the rainy season, meteorite, volcano, pole shift, nibiru and the rapture to go....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 09, 2016, 03:59:41 am

Meanwhile, on the Batteriser IGG campaign we have:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=200029;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=200031;image)

Even Google is on the action:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=200033;image)

Looks like our favourite monkey 'Probes' missed the photo shoot  ;D

Edit. I just learned Probes is on a date with the Energizer Bunny...You could say that they are Courting.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on February 09, 2016, 06:17:28 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=200031;image)

This word "update". I do not think it means what you think it means.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/469498101/inigo1.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on February 09, 2016, 07:29:14 am

Hmmm are they using flextronics for their manufacturing, could turn out to become a real product then

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 09, 2016, 11:41:40 am

Quote from: Kjelt on February 09, 2016, 07:29:14 am

Hmmm are they using flextronics for their manufacturing, could turn out to become a real product then

It's well known that Bob was the former President of Flextronics for 4 years:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bob-roohparvar-73b6b15 (https://www.linkedin.com/in/bob-roohparvar-73b6b15)
Also CEO of Flexpower, a subsidiary of Flextronics.

And to quote him from his LinkedIn profile:

Quote

Prior to Batteriser, Dr. Roohparvar served as CEO and President of Flexpower, a subsidiary of Flextronics. After being told it couldn't be done, Dr. Roohparvar and his team re-designed the original iPhone charger, reducing size by 40% and creating the smallest charger in the world. Prior to Flexpower, Dr. Roohparvar served as Vice President and General Manager at Broadcom, in charge of their Power Management Business Unit.

So there is absolutely no doubt he has the technical background and experience to make such a product, and yes, very likely using his old company Flextronics.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timgiles on February 09, 2016, 12:51:47 pm

FlexTronics helped sink the Kickstarter CST Watch (thinest watch in the world) project. So seems a perfect place for Bob to sew his magic beans.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on February 09, 2016, 08:37:06 pm

Quote from: timgiles on February 09, 2016, 12:51:47 pm

FlexTronics helped sink the Kickstarter CST Watch (thinest watch in the world) project. So seems a perfect place for Bob to sew his magic beans.

You mean, they didn't help to make a project that was completely out of reality from the beginning?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on February 09, 2016, 10:30:38 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on February 09, 2016, 11:41:40 am

Quote from: Kjelt on February 09, 2016, 07:29:14 am

Hmmm are they using flextronics for their manufacturing, could turn out to become a real product then

It's well known that Bob was the former President of Flextronics for 4 years:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bob-roohparvar-73b6b15 (https://www.linkedin.com/in/bob-roohparvar-73b6b15)
Also CEO of Flexpower, a subsidiary of Flextronics.

And to quote him from his LinkedIn profile:

Quote

Prior to Batteriser, Dr. Roohparvar served as CEO and President of Flexpower, a subsidiary of Flextronics. After being told it couldn't be done, Dr. Roohparvar and his team re-designed the original iPhone charger, reducing size by 40% and creating the smallest charger in the world. Prior to Flexpower, Dr. Roohparvar served as Vice President and General Manager at Broadcom, in charge of their Power Management Business Unit.

So there is absolutely no doubt he has the technical background and experience to make such a product, and yes, very likely using his old company Flextronics.

With that kind of background this whole saga just seems absolutely nuts.  How can a guy with the big trifecta of design, manufacturing, and marketing experience get so far down shit creek without anything even resembling a paddle?
I can only come up with two scenarios:
1) It was a scam from the beginning, with the potential scammed party being VC money and any large distributors like Walmart or something.  Try to make something that never lives up to the grand claims and sorta works but most people don't have the knowledge or skills to really evaluate and ride the "as seen on TV" wave of impulse buys.  This still doesn't explain all the production problems.  A big part of selling a crappy product is actually having a product and not pissing off your customers.
2) They really are clueless and throught they had invented cold fusion and by the time enough people proved their fundamental concept was flawed they were already too committed so they doubled down on the bulls[daveface]t.

?? It doesn't make any sense.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on February 09, 2016, 10:48:11 pm

Given what we know of the backgrounds of the people involved, I'd suggest that they've become used to the idea that other people (ie. not them, personally) can and do solve technical problems. Therefore, if the Batteriser does have any problems, they can and will get sorted.

They are, of course, completely failing to comprehend the difference between a practical or technological limitation (like not being small enough or able to handle enough current) with a fundamental one.

It reminds me a bit of the ongoing circus surrounding the use of strong encryption. Any scientist or mathematician knows that an encryption system is either strong and effective, or it can be broken by anyone with the necessary knowledge and resources. Yet, we still have politicians bleating on about how if the great minds in industry were motivated to do so, they'd be able to come up with a system that was strong and effective except when a government agency had a court order... as if mathematical operations know or care.

In this case, the politicians have the same complete mental block as we're seeing with Team Batteriser; that unshakeable faith that a deeply, fundamentally flawed idea can be made to work, even when the myriad reasons why it can never work have been spelled out to them in words of one syllable or fewer.

I wish every time I came up with something that doesn't work, as many people would repeat my work, analyse my design and explain to me so thoroughly what my mistakes were. It would make my job a whole lot easier.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 09, 2016, 10:54:43 pm

Quote from: Smokey on February 09, 2016, 10:30:38 pm

With that kind of background this whole saga just seems absolutely nuts.  How can a guy with the big trifecta of design, manufacturing, and marketing experience get so far down shit creek without anything even resembling a paddle?
I can only come up with two scenarios:
1) It was a scam from the beginning, with the potential scammed party being VC money and any large distributors like Walmart or something.  Try to make something that never lives up to the grand claims and sorta works but most people don't have the knowledge or skills to really evaluate and ride the "as seen on TV" wave of impulse buys.  This still doesn't explain all the production problems.  A big part of selling a crappy product is actually having a product and not pissing off your customers.
2) They really are clueless and throught they had invented cold fusion and by the time enough people proved their fundamental concept was flawed they were already too committed so they doubled down on the bulls[daveface]t.

It's #2.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 09, 2016, 10:56:46 pm

Quote from: AndyC_772 on February 09, 2016, 10:48:11 pm

In this case, the politicians have the same complete mental block as we're seeing with Team Batteriser; that unshakeable faith that a deeply, fundamentally flawed idea can be made to work, even when the myriad reasons why it can never work have been spelled out to them in words of one syllable or fewer.

It's exactly this.
Countless examples available, most notably the high profiles ones Solar Roadways & uBeam.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Corporate666 on February 10, 2016, 12:24:26 am

Quote from: Godzil on February 09, 2016, 08:37:06 pm

Quote from: timgiles on February 09, 2016, 12:51:47 pm

FlexTronics helped sink the Kickstarter CST Watch (thinest watch in the world) project. So seems a perfect place for Bob to sew his magic beans.

You mean, they didn't help to make a project that was completely out of reality from the beginning?

The watch was completely within reality.  The problem was that the morons running the project had absolutely zero idea of what it would cost to manufacture the watch and how much work needed to be done between their (working) prototype and finished units.  So when they were funded they spent all the money ordering parts and traveling back and forth to Flextronics, and the end result was the manufacturing cost of the watch was going to be more than double that they had guessed.

...and they had already pissed away all the money on parts, so they absconded with hundreds of thousands of $$ worth of parts and have disappeared and failed to account for their >$1 million in cash.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 10, 2016, 02:25:20 am

NEW UPDATE!

Quote

Dear Friends,

Once again, I want to thank our supporters all around the world for being a part of the Batteriser Indiegogo campaign, and making it such a great success. As a small startup we know that each and every supporter is of great value and importance to us. Rest assured that your patience is greatly appreciated and will be rewarded. I want to take this opportunity to provide a brief update to ensure that none of you are left in the dark about the status of your orders. Thankfully, we have some very encouraging news to share.

While facing the challenge of working during the Chinese New Year holiday season, two of our executive team members have been in China and Taiwan working very closely with our contract manufacturer these past few weeks. As a result of this productive collaboration and our team’s diligence, our Contract Manufacturer has confirmed their commitment to ship Batterisers this coming March. We are absolutely thrilled to be this close to having the Batteriser shipped out to all of our Indiegogo supporters. It’s been a long road, but we are more excited than ever to bring all of you extended battery life and savings to the environment. I wish you all a Happy Lunar New Year, full of blessings and joy for you and your loved ones.

Best Wishes,
Bob Roohparvar
CEO | Batteroo, Inc.

So neither of them have a phone with with a camera in it and thought to take some snaps to share with backers?
Still no mention of the Trademark dispute and how that might potentially affect units shipping.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BravoV on February 10, 2016, 02:41:31 am

Quote from: EEVblog on February 10, 2016, 02:25:20 am

NEW UPDATE!

Dear Friends,

..... two of our executive team members have been in China and Taiwan working very closely with our contract manufacturer these past few weeks. As a result of this productive collaboration and our team’s diligence, our Contract Manufacturer has confirmed their commitment to ship Batterisers this coming March.

Quote from: EEVblog on February 10, 2016, 02:25:20 am

So neither of them have a camera with a phone in it and thought to take some snaps to share with backers?

1st, those executives hate smart phone, and still using the old dumb phone without camera in it, nothing wrong with this right ?

2nd, they deliberately brought used and almost depleted AA batteries and AA cells powered camera, to prove the butterizer will work, its just its not ready yet as above contract, since there is nothing to power it, hence, no picture taken with that camera. Again, they're a strong believer, so no fresh AA cells, get it ?

... and ...

3rd, No ... they hate to borrow camera from others even just for 1 or 2 shots, again, nothing wrong with this attitude.

 :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on February 10, 2016, 03:12:59 am

Quote from: EEVblog on February 09, 2016, 11:41:40 am

Quote from: Kjelt on February 09, 2016, 07:29:14 am

Hmmm are they using flextronics for their manufacturing, could turn out to become a real product then

It's well known that Bob was the former President of Flextronics for 4 years:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bob-roohparvar-73b6b15 (https://www.linkedin.com/in/bob-roohparvar-73b6b15)
Also CEO of Flexpower, a subsidiary of Flextronics.

And to quote him from his LinkedIn profile:

Quote

Prior to Batteriser, Dr. Roohparvar served as CEO and President of Flexpower, a subsidiary of Flextronics. After being told it couldn't be done, Dr. Roohparvar and his team re-designed the original iPhone charger, reducing size by 40% and creating the smallest charger in the world. Prior to Flexpower, Dr. Roohparvar served as Vice President and General Manager at Broadcom, in charge of their Power Management Business Unit.

So there is absolutely no doubt he has the technical background and experience to make such a product, and yes, very likely using his old company Flextronics.

Being a president or CEO does not imply technical competence, even at a large manufacturing company. It implies an ability to gain power. Bob demonstrates he does not care about technical competence.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on February 10, 2016, 05:48:00 am

Quote from: photon on February 10, 2016, 03:12:59 am

Being a president or CEO does not imply technical competence, even at a large manufacturing company. It implies an ability to gain power. Bob demonstrates he does not care about technical competence.

I believe that Bob thinks that he has technical competence but I also agree with Dave and think that he is accustomed to actual engineers doing the bulk of the actual technical and design work for him and is probably a bit deluded...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on February 10, 2016, 06:15:15 am

Quote from: EEVblog on February 10, 2016, 02:25:20 am

So neither of them have a phone with with a camera in it and thought to take some snaps to share with backers?

<Bob mode>I'm confident you understand that large manufacturing companies don't allow taking pictures within their production facilities, so unfortunately no photos.</Bob mode>

Quote

Still no mention of the Trademark dispute and how that might potentially affect units shipping.

They need to reserve something for the next update, delay until April :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on February 10, 2016, 06:31:54 am

Quote from: AndyC_772 on February 09, 2016, 10:48:11 pm

...
In this case, the politicians have the same complete mental block as we're seeing with Team Batteriser; that unshakeable faith that a deeply, fundamentally flawed idea can be made to work, even when the myriad reasons why it can never work have been spelled out to them in words of one syllable or fewer.
...

Yes you are right, best example is Germany at the moment. They tell us that migrants are a good thing and call them refugees.
They are not, but the politicians can not admit that since they have ridden the country too far into the shit.
The same thing that prevents Roohparvar vom quitting and saying "OK, nice thought, doesn't work, let's stop all that" also prevents our chancellorette from saying "Bad idea, they are no refugees, we need to send them back ASAP".
Admitting to be completely wrong is a strength that both of them don't have.

BTW that migrant topic was just an example to explain that psychologial mechanism. I know it's OT and we should not discuss that in here any further.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on February 10, 2016, 06:41:59 am

Quote from: drussell on February 10, 2016, 05:48:00 am

Quote from: photon on February 10, 2016, 03:12:59 am

Being a president or CEO does not imply technical competence, even at a large manufacturing company. It implies an ability to gain power. Bob demonstrates he does not care about technical competence.

I believe that Bob thinks that he has technical competence but I also agree with Dave and think that he is accustomed to actual engineers doing the bulk of the actual technical and design work for him and is probably a bit deluded...

The problem with this is that some actual engineer MUST have done the actual work at some point.  If they really have custom silicon, and we are portraying this Bob guy as just some idiot CEO, then there is no way he did that work.  Even if they don't have custom chips, that miniaturization job is pretty impressive if it even marginally works and once again no way an idiot clueless CEO did that work.   Somewhere there was a real engineer in the shadows.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 10, 2016, 07:12:46 am

Quote from: Smokey on February 10, 2016, 06:41:59 am

Somewhere there was a real engineer in the shadows.

Real engineers work on Solar Roadways and uBeam et.al for *insert reason here*
Heck, even I've worked on my fair share of projects I knew wouldn't go anywhere. Take the $4k Altium Nanoboard  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bills on February 10, 2016, 07:21:43 am

Quote from: EEVblog on February 10, 2016, 07:12:46 am

Quote from: Smokey on February 10, 2016, 06:41:59 am

Somewhere there was a real engineer in the shadows.

Real engineers work on Solar Roadways and uBeam et.al for *insert reason here*(#1-money IE: capitalism)
Heck, even I've worked on my fair share of projects I knew wouldn't go anywhere. Take the $4k Altium Nanoboard  ;D

#2. maybe fame

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Chipguy on February 10, 2016, 07:57:13 am

Quote from: EEVblog on February 10, 2016, 07:12:46 am

Real engineers work on Solar Roadways and uBeam et.al for *insert reason here*
Heck, even I've worked on my fair share of projects I knew wouldn't go anywhere. Take the $4k Altium Nanoboard  ;D

LOL yeah, I am currently working on a fancy Windows tablet based multimeter that weights a whopping 1.67 kgs and feels like one of those old handheld scopes. I'm curious to see how that's gonna work out...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on February 10, 2016, 08:42:44 am

Bateroo's is a new startup idea. Rather than selling their product to astute manufacturing buyers, which a "classical" startup targets, they are selling their product to an ignorant general public. When a classical startup fails, it's mostly the VCs who pay the bill since the customers usually do trials rather than purchases. For the new Bateroo type of startup, the general public helps the VCs pay the bill. This is how the term "scam" applies to Bateroo and their VC.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on February 10, 2016, 09:00:42 am

I think the word 'scam' implies intent to deceive, which in turn requires a degree of understanding that what's being delivered (or not!) is in some way deficient compared to what the customer is expecting.

I'm not sure that's happening here, because I don't believe that part of the brain is actually active in anyone at Team Batteriser. They absolutely, genuinely believe that what they're developing will achieve what they say it will, and deleting comments that suggest otherwise really does make those problems go away.

What saddens me it that I don't think there ever will be that moment of dawning realisation, when products finally end up in the hands of enough people who will say "no, this doesn't do what you promised", and the Batteriser team has to finally acknowledge that they got it wrong.

Instead, the blinkers will stay on. Anyone performing quantitative testing will be "doing it wrong"; any product whose life is not extended will be "one of the few products" in which a Batteriser doesn't give "typical" performance. Life *will* be rosy, right up until the point when they actually get sued for trademark infringement and have to pull the plug. Then we'll get the crying about "big battery" shutting them down.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on February 10, 2016, 09:15:26 am

Quote from: AndyC_772 on February 10, 2016, 09:00:42 am

They absolutely, genuinely believe that what they're developing will achieve what they say it will, and deleting comments that suggest otherwise really does make those problems go away.

No, Bateroo and their VC know they have a failed product. They have no choice but to deliver first product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on February 10, 2016, 09:26:06 am

Quote from: drussell on February 10, 2016, 05:48:00 am

I believe that Bob thinks that he has technical competence but I also agree with Dave and think that he is accustomed to actual engineers doing the bulk of the actual technical and design work for him and is probably a bit deluded...

I agree completely... except for the word bit, I would change that to completely.
Yes, completely deluded.

In previous statements made by Dave and others, I agree that "uncle Bob" thought it would be an easy sell to convince the VC investors, the Walmart buyers and the naive public that he had the elixir of battery life and the savior of the throwaway society...  Then the unexpected happened for him.. Real engineers did the math... Real engineers published the facts...
To paraphrase and take liberties on what someone said earlier - Bob is down a rabbit hole he cannot get out of and has been forced to double down on his bet while he puts unrealistic pressure on his inexperienced junior engineers.

He and his dickhead brother clearly have no idea about what they have dreamed up and are expecting some "sort of" engineers to solve the problem for them... A typical CEO mentality...

The sad part about this is that he and his brother will walk away from this almost unscathed, and will live to scam another day...
Very sad...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on February 10, 2016, 10:28:46 am

Quote from: Batteriser

While facing the challenge of working during the Chinese New Year holiday season, two of our executive team members have been in China and Taiwan working very closely with our contract manufacturer these past few weeks.

Well, at least the "Chinese New Year" excuse didn't disappoint.  :popcorn:

Quote from: Batteriser

As a result of this productive collaboration and our team’s diligence, our Contract Manufacturer has confirmed their commitment to ship Batterisers this coming March.

...their commitment? Not yours.

Uhuh.

I still say it's all lies and they'll never ship a single Batteriser. The trademark dispute will be "revealed" in a couple of months time after which they'll "run out of money" (unless they can get some VC to pay their legal bills...in which case they'll draw it out for as long as possible before declaring failure).

Any takers?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on February 10, 2016, 12:30:02 pm

In contrast, a "free energy" device that really couldn't possibly exist... has actually shipped:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/stoern-orbo-free-energy-scam-they're-still-at-it (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/stoern-orbo-free-energy-scam-they're-still-at-it)!/msg864414/#msg864414

...and if you look at the links in that thread, there appears to be plenty of actual pictures of the product, and scenes that show some sort of work is happening, despite how impossible it is. Batteriser have shown nowhere near that level of work thus far. :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 10, 2016, 01:41:40 pm

Quote from: amyk on February 10, 2016, 12:30:02 pm

In contrast, a "free energy" device that really couldn't possibly exist... has actually shipped:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/stoern-orbo-free-energy-scam-they're-still-at-it (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/stoern-orbo-free-energy-scam-they're-still-at-it)!/msg864414/#msg864414

I can't believe they shipped something.
Once you ship the game is up soon after.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on February 10, 2016, 01:59:48 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on February 10, 2016, 01:41:40 pm

Quote from: amyk on February 10, 2016, 12:30:02 pm

In contrast, a "free energy" device that really couldn't possibly exist... has actually shipped:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/stoern-orbo-free-energy-scam-they're-still-at-it (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/stoern-orbo-free-energy-scam-they're-still-at-it)!/msg864414/#msg864414

I can't believe they shipped something.
Once you ship the game is up soon after.

Depends on who you ship to...  Some people want to believe.  :-//

Plus: If there's no screws and it's all full of opaque potting compound then it would take serious effort to show it's full of AA batteries (or whatever).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on February 10, 2016, 02:11:33 pm

We know someone with an X-ray machine....

That would be a good way to start.   :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 11, 2016, 03:38:57 am

Hi Group,

Around the middle of December, the Batteroo team announced that they were having problems with a new IC designed for this application:

Dear Indiegogo supporters,

I want to take this opportunity to wish you and your families Happy Holidays and a wonderful New Year full of happiness, joy, and prosperity. I also want to give you another summary update with regards to our product shipment.

With each passing day,  we are getting closer and closer to shipping your Batterisers. As you may recall, we initially planned to ship the 500 milli-amp beta version of the Batteriser; however, we made a strategic decision to deliver Batterisers with a  new IC (Integrated circuit) capable of driving 1300 milli-amps of steady state current. We did this because the new version will make Batteriser more compatible with a wider range of devices, and we want to give our backers the absolute best final product that we believe they deserve. Unfortunately, in the construction of the updated Batteriser IC, we encountered unexpected technical fabrication process related issues which caused us to miss our estimated November shipping date.... 


So what would it take to do this?

Here is a little Boost Converter Maths:

I_{out (MAX)} = (I_sw(peak) – (I_ripple/2)) V_in/(V_out + V_diode)

I_ripple is normally chosen to be I_out x 0.4
(40% ripple current)

Rearranging to get the peak switch current:

I_sw(max) = 1.2 x I_out(max) x ((V_out + V_diode)/V_in)

So if we have:

I_out(max) = 1A (less than the 1300mA above)

V_out = 1.5V

V_in(min) = 0.8V

V_diode = 0.1V (synchronous rectifier)

I_sw(max) = 1.2 x 1 x ((1.5 + 0.1)/0.8V)

I_sw(max) = 2.4A

If I recalculate for 1300mA

I get I_sw(max)= 3.12A

This is a big switch.


Now to the IC design. One of the first, and really successful, low-voltage, integrated circuits was designed by the late, great Bob Widlar. The IC is the LM10. It is reported that it took Widlar a long time ( 5 years) to develop this IC. For the young kids, the LM10 is a combination of 200mV (sub-bandgap) reference and a rail-to-rail op-amp that work down to a Vin of 1.2V. The LM10 and the similar LT1635 are still in production after 30+ years.

To drive a switch either BJT or MOSFET from the input (0.8V) is going to be difficult. It is possible to drive the switch with power from the output (1.5V) once the circuit has started.

There are some BOOST ICs that will start from a very low voltage (the LTC3108 will start from just 20mV). This is achieved with depletion mode devices. There are more ICs that will start from 0.5V

I wonder how 'Uncle Bob's' IC is working?

(I am surprised one of the supports of the IGG campaign has asked for an update on the mid-December report.)


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BravoV on February 11, 2016, 05:42:39 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 11, 2016, 03:38:57 am

The IC is the LM10. It is reported that it took Widlar a long time ( 5 years) to develop this IC. For the young kids, the LM10 is a combination of 200mV (sub-bandgap) reference and a rail-to-rail op-amp that work down to a Vin of 1.2V. The LM10 and the similar LT1635 are still in production after 30+ years.

I wonder how 'Uncle Bob's' IC is working?

C'mon, even Bob Widlar took 5 years, "Uncle Boob" definitely will be faster than that, maybe less than 5 years.  :P

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on February 11, 2016, 11:53:34 am

Quote from: BravoV on February 11, 2016, 05:42:39 am

C'mon, even Bob Widlar took 5 years, "Uncle Boob" definitely will be faster than that, maybe less than 5 years.  :P

Someone has to say it...  maybe 5x faster...?
So he'll be due soon.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on February 11, 2016, 12:36:42 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 11, 2016, 03:38:57 am

Dear Indiegogo supporters,
I want to take this opportunity to wish you and your families Happy Holidays and a wonderful New Year full of happiness, joy, and prosperity.


(I am surprised one of the supports of the IGG campaign has asked for an update on the mid-December report.)

You mean like how prosperous the Roo Bros have become after having taken all their backers' money?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 11, 2016, 12:43:07 pm

Quote from: SL4P on February 11, 2016, 11:53:34 am

Quote from: BravoV on February 11, 2016, 05:42:39 am

C'mon, even Bob Widlar took 5 years, "Uncle Boob" definitely will be faster than that, maybe less than 5 years.  :P

Someone has to say it...  maybe 5x faster...?
So he'll be due soon.

Batteroo land it would have to be 800% faster. It might be possible. When Widlar did it, he was breaking new ground on many fronts.

Examining a BJT datasheet shows some of the difficulties in designing the output stage.

Here are clips from a FZT849 datasheet. The FZT849 is a very good bipolar transistor. The designer optimized the part to have good characteristics at high collector currents.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=200738;image)

If operated in the saturated mode, forced Beta, BJT have slow turn-off time:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=200740;image)

This shows the relationship between Vce and Ic:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=200742;image)

This shows the Vbe required to achieve a certain Ic:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=200744;image)


I have highlighted the operating point that the IC would need to operate at.


This is a discrete transistor. The transistor  inside an IC would have similar properties.

There are similar issues with a MOSFET.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on February 11, 2016, 01:33:10 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 11, 2016, 03:38:57 am

To drive a switch either BJT or MOSFET from the input (0.8V) is going to be difficult. It is possible to drive the switch with power from the output (1.5V) once the circuit has started.

Maybe  they'll require one or two CR2032 to power the batterizer!!!  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on February 11, 2016, 01:38:22 pm

 I think you got it - all it really is under that fancy skin is a small battery! Like the fake shakelights a friend of mine got once - for some reason, he bought a whole case of these things from eBay, and when he got them, it turned out the moving magnet and coil were all just for show - they all had a battery inside directly connected to the switch and LED. No charging circuitry, nothing. When he complained to the seller, the response he got is a classic: "Well sell two kinds of shake lights, one with batteries and one without". He ended up returning them all for a refund - but before returning them he switched every last one on and left them on until the batteries died.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on February 11, 2016, 03:47:54 pm

Quote from: amyk on February 10, 2016, 12:30:02 pm

In contrast, a "free energy" device that really couldn't possibly exist... has actually shipped:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/stoern-orbo-free-energy-scam-they're-still-at-it (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/stoern-orbo-free-energy-scam-they're-still-at-it)!/msg864414/#msg864414

...and if you look at the links in that thread, there appears to be plenty of actual pictures of the product, and scenes that show some sort of work is happening, despite how impossible it is. Batteriser have shown nowhere near that level of work thus far. :palm:

That's where the opposites of the spectrum touch eachother. For a "possible" product there's nothing to hide, and for the most unexistable product, there's nothing to prove or debunk.
It's inbetween the two, when there's doubt, controversy,... that a culture of confusion and distraction has to be maintained.

It's a big earning model too these days. You can start by ripping money of "believers", see it as a tax on stupidity for them, and afterwards, divert the critical to a site/forum with publicity at the sides, top and/or bottom.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bitwelder on February 11, 2016, 05:44:07 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on February 09, 2016, 11:41:40 am

It's well known that Bob was the former President of Flextronics for 4 years:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bob-roohparvar-73b6b15 (https://www.linkedin.com/in/bob-roohparvar-73b6b15)
Also CEO of Flexpower, a subsidiary of Flextronics.

And also honorary president of Flexdelivery !  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 15, 2016, 01:25:40 pm

Hi,

Over on the IGG site we have a couple of backers asking for photographs:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=201650;image)

It will be interesting to see how they respond. The Spring Festival in China is coming to an end and the CM should be back at work.

The options include:

1) It is secret, we can not show you the pieces.

2) The two Batteroo Execs that visit China weren't allowed to take pictures.

3) The batteries in the camera were dead.

4) The dog ate the SD card.

4b) The monkey ate the SD card.

5) We plan to ship in March so you don't need photos.

6) The requests will disappear.

Any other ideas?

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on February 15, 2016, 01:35:44 pm

 I'm going to bet on #6, the questions will disappear and those two people will be blocked. But that's an easy bet, seeing as how it's been the modus operandi of this gang all along.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on February 15, 2016, 02:06:41 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 15, 2016, 01:25:40 pm

Any other ideas?

The photos were deemed Classified by the Pentagon.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on February 15, 2016, 06:29:04 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 15, 2016, 01:25:40 pm

Any other ideas?

The batteries in our camera died and the Batteriser didn't fit in it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on February 15, 2016, 06:37:08 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 15, 2016, 01:25:40 pm

The options include:

1) It is secret, we can not show you the pieces.

2) The two Batteroo Execs that visit China weren't allowed to take pictures.

3) The batteries in the camera were dead.

4) The dog ate the SD card.

4b) The monkey ate the SD card.

5) We plan to ship in March so you don't need photos.

6) The requests will disappear.

That's an easy one: #6

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on February 15, 2016, 06:41:53 pm

^---  What he said.

After all, Fungus is an expert on disappearing comments and blocked bookface accounts... Isn't he...?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 15, 2016, 09:19:06 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on February 15, 2016, 06:29:04 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 15, 2016, 01:25:40 pm

Any other ideas?

The batteries in our camera died and the Batteriser didn't fit in it.

Variation:

The dead batteries and Batterisers are stuck in the camera and we can not get them out.

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on February 16, 2016, 04:25:24 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=201791;image)

Debunking myths and testing facts?

https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html (https://www.yahoo.com/makers/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html)

The article appears to be 8 months old, doesn't debunk a single thing, nor show the slightest bit of factual information.

I suspect the facebook page has been set up as a troll page....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 16, 2016, 04:31:06 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on February 16, 2016, 04:25:24 am

I suspect the facebook page has been set up as a troll page....

Seems that way. Posting this old article where the Batteriser didn't even work!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on February 16, 2016, 06:07:02 am

Quote from: EEVblog on February 16, 2016, 04:31:06 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on February 16, 2016, 04:25:24 am

I suspect the facebook page has been set up as a troll page....

Seems that way. Posting this old article where the Batteriser didn't even work!

Then why would they be deleting any comments or replies to other peoples' comments which are even slightly critical of them or have any questions about their product for them and completely blocking us from posting to their page?!!

No, I think it really is the delusional Batteroo team and they're still calling that Yahoo article a "win" for themselves.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 16, 2016, 06:11:26 am

Quote from: drussell on February 16, 2016, 06:07:02 am

Then why would they be deleting any comments or replies to other peoples' comments which are even slightly critical of them or have any questions about their product for them and completely blocking us from posting to their page?!!
No, I think it really is the delusional Bateroo team and they're still calling that Yahoo article a "win" for themselves.

It's just the clueless person running the Facebook page trying to justify their existence by posting links.
But hey, I guess that's really the only real evidence they have that this thing has been seen by other people. When you've got nothing to show, you have to promote the dregs  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 17, 2016, 01:30:30 am

Hi group,

For the record, just in case it gets deleted, on the IGG comments:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=201938;image)

It seems we have a non-believer who wants to see pictures.

Interesting use of 'Bolshevik'. Google tells me it is Russian for 'One of the Majority'

I can only assume that is automatic typing correction of 'Bullsh!t'.


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on February 17, 2016, 01:51:05 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 17, 2016, 01:30:30 am

Interesting use of 'Bolshevik'. Google tells me it is Russian for 'One of the Majority'

I can only assume that is automatic typing correction of 'Bullsh!t'.

A lesson in history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Revolution ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 17, 2016, 06:40:44 pm

Hi,

Today the a81120067 comment is gone, so no more Bolshevik.

There is a suggestion of more pictures:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=202079;image)

Let's wait a see if they post anything meaningful.

 :popcorn:

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on February 17, 2016, 07:13:37 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 17, 2016, 06:40:44 pm

Let's wait a see if they post anything meaningful.

I'm sure they will...  :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on February 17, 2016, 09:36:18 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 17, 2016, 06:40:44 pm

Let's wait a see if they post anything meaningful.

We have a better chance of achieving world peace. Even the overunity and "free energy" guys look more promising than Batterizer (yes, I know!!!)

On a side note, I wonder if someone from batteroo reads these forums. If they do, they might have had some free EE design tips a few pages ago.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on February 17, 2016, 09:44:02 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on February 17, 2016, 09:36:18 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 17, 2016, 06:40:44 pm

Let's wait a see if they post anything meaningful.

We have a better chance of achieving world peace. Even the overunity and "free energy" guys look more promising than Batterizer (yes, I know!!!)

On a side note, I wonder if someone from batteroo reads these forums. If they do, they might have had some free EE design tips a few pages ago.

 Does anyone who posted actual design help have a PhD? Because if not, it's totally invalid advice to the 'experts' like Bob. No PhD = you have no clue what you're talking about to that bunch. They said as much in their response to Dave. Their PhDs have figured out the magic that any practical EE can prove is, well, bullshit. I mean, who are you going to trust? Some crazy Aussie bloke with a YouTube show who physically demonstrates that the device cannot work as promised, or some intellectual PhDs and their overwhelming brain power? (don't answer if you are on Team Batteroo)

 This needs to resolve out one way or another soon, I'm getting sick from all the popcorn consumption.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 17, 2016, 09:45:03 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on February 17, 2016, 09:36:18 pm

On a side note, I wonder if someone from batteroo reads these forums.

They do.
Something gets mentioned on here and it magically seems to appear in their next update or video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 17, 2016, 09:46:50 pm

Quote from: rrinker on February 17, 2016, 09:44:02 pm

This needs to resolve out one way or another soon, I'm getting sick from all the popcorn consumption.

(http://104.131.42.225/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/hows_end.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 18, 2016, 12:58:30 am

Quote from: rrinker on February 17, 2016, 09:44:02 pm

Does anyone who posted actual design help have a PhD? Because if not, it's totally invalid advice to the 'experts' like Bob. No PhD = you have no clue what you're talking about to that bunch. They said as much in their response to Dave. Their PhDs have figured out the magic that any practical EE can prove is, well, bullshit. I mean, who are you going to trust? Some crazy Aussie bloke with a YouTube show who physically demonstrates that the device cannot work as promised, or some intellectual PhDs and their overwhelming brain power? (don't answer if you are on Team Batteroo)

 This needs to resolve out one way or another soon, I'm getting sick from all the popcorn consumption.

I, for one, do not have a Phd. I did graduate from Imperial College (London U.K.) with a BSc (Eng). I started working with switching power supplies in 1979 and have been doing it ever since. I don't know how long smps have been around, let me say 60 years, I have 37 years experience in the field. You could say I have 37/60 ths of the maximum possible experience.

It is the fundamentals such as:

1) the battery discharge curves

2) the maximum power theorem

3) the challenges with producing an IC that will work at very low voltages.

4) most devices already operate at low voltages

That the Batteroo team have over looked.

I am interested in this because I want to see how it plays out. I am not backer of the IGG campaign. They are lucky that I am not. I would have asked some very challenging questions for them. I would probably have been banned many months ago.

I am disappointed that IGG allows campaigners to delete comments that are really quite polite and respectful. As a minimum I would like to see a tally of how many comments have been deleted like this:

STORY     UPDATES     Comments xxx      Deleted Comments yyy      Backers

It would make campaigners think before deleting. Too many deletions would be a red flag.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BravoV on February 18, 2016, 01:13:01 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 18, 2016, 12:58:30 am

I am disappointed that IGG allows campaigners to delete comments that are really quite polite and respectful. As a minimum I would like to see a tally of how many comments have been deleted like this:

STORY     UPDATES     Comments xxx      Deleted Comments yyy      Backers

It would make campaigners think before deleting. Too many deletions would be a red flag.

I believe IGG people are not stupid, pretty confident that implementing this comments management transparently is not and will not be in their to do list.

"Definitely" it will have huge impact on their money flow.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on February 18, 2016, 03:00:48 am

 Just to be clear - I wasn't questioning anyone here's capabilities in posting verifiable design considerations and so forth, The last bit in my first paragraph was meant to be sarcastic. I don't question Dave's analysis and the experiments he did in his videos - the results speak for themselves. I question the Batteriser PhDs who only respond with bullshit excuses in a lame attempt to create nonexistent flaws in Dave's analysis and simply pass it off as that intellectually snobbery of "if you has a PhD , you'd understand". Makes one wonder if they got their PhD from a Cracker jack box or if they simply donated a lot of money to some school and it's honorary. Or, has been stated, more than likely they are just so far removed from the practical side of engineering that they are failing to comprehend the physical realities of what they are attempting to create. Their handling of anything negative though really hints of elitism, as in "how DARE you criticize out AMAZING device, you must be stupid, or in the pay of Big Battery"  Hmm, well, that last bit veers into conspiracy nuttery, so maybe strike that.

 Bah, back to the couch to keep watching. Last up, they promised more pictures. Odd of them just posting the same old pictures they've shown before? 99.9999% in my book.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on February 18, 2016, 06:27:54 am

Mwah the same as in some companies, the higher you get the more abstract it becomes.
So in the end a system architect only has a valid user story:
User with device that shows empty battery, removes battery, puts battery in batteriser TM puts back in device and the device operates again.
Now only the engineers have to make it only work  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 19, 2016, 02:19:01 am

Meanwhile, over on the Batteriser Facebook page we have:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=202377;image)


Let us see how long the message about the trademark dispute lasts.

Mia Micra  :-+  :clap:

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 19, 2016, 02:30:29 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 19, 2016, 02:19:01 am

Let us see how long the message about the trademark dispute lasts.

If they do ever ship anything, it must have a different name on it. They simply would not be that stupid to ship product with Energizer hanging over their head. Energizer are not playing games, they will not let Batteroo use the name, and will sue then out of existence if they try.
There has to come a point where Batteroo will use their "Big battery is suing us to stop our technology" publicity trump card.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on February 19, 2016, 02:49:34 am

Back on the subject of maximum claimed current and the back-stepping, side-stepping and changing of specs...
I was trying to remember where I had seen the rubbish claim that the thing could deliver as much current as the battery could deliver.

Surfing around today I stumbled upon it again.
They still have this bogus claim in their FAQ section on their website:

Quote

Are there limitations on devices that can use the Batteriser based on the current consumptions?

No, the Batteriser sleeve is designed to deliver as much current as a battery is able to supply to the device.

Utter rubbish...
Whats the short circuit current of an AA battery...?  Approaching 10A...?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 19, 2016, 03:16:46 am

Quote from: Mr.B on February 19, 2016, 02:49:34 am

They still have this bogus claim in their FAQ section on their website:

Quote

Are there limitations on devices that can use the Batteriser based on the current consumptions?
No, the Batteriser sleeve is designed to deliver as much current as a battery is able to supply to the device.

Utter rubbish...

And they wonder why people laugh at them and don't them seriously?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on February 19, 2016, 07:32:23 am

Quote from: Mr.B on February 19, 2016, 02:49:34 am

Whats the short circuit current of an AA battery...?  Approaching 10A...?

Easily; I've had over 10A out of a fresh AA battery during short-term fault condition testing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on February 19, 2016, 08:56:50 am

If I had the test equipment to do such a test I would shoot out in the morning and get a new Batteriser Energiser AA battery to test.
I don't know if my Maynuo M9710 load will be able to log the current curve accurately enough.

I think I might just have to have a go at that in the morning...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on February 19, 2016, 09:05:29 am

Quote from: Mr.B on February 19, 2016, 08:56:50 am

If I had the test equipment to do such a test I would shoot out in the morning and get a new Batteriser Energiser AA battery to test.
I don't know if my Maynuo M9710 load will be able to log the current curve accurately enough.

I think I might just have to have a go at that in the morning...

Yeah please do... I've been seriously considering purchasing a Maynuo electronic load (M9711?), so I'm interested in your results. Perhaps try discharging various different fresh AA Alkaline cells at various high current loads like 10A, 8A, 5A... Very interesting stuff.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 19, 2016, 11:55:39 am

Hi,

Have a look at this message: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg809012/#msg809012 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg809012/#msg809012)


In this post I presented the results of finding the maximum power point of an AA cell at various states of discharge. I used an HP 6060A Electronic Load controlled by PC. Starting with a fresh cell I measured the maximum power point by sweeping the load, I then discharged the cell by 100mAh, and repeated until the cell was depleted.

Here is a graph showing the discharge current during the experiment. Only the rising edges are valid, I didn't have any data points showing the current returning to 200mA between the sweeps:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=202432;image)

If I add the missing data points the graph looks like this:


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=202434;image)

The load resistance was swept from 1 Ohm to 0.2 Ohms during each sweep.



Most boost converters do not 'play nicely' on the left side of the maximum power curve. On this side of the curve as you increase the duty-cycle the output will drop, eventually shorting the cell, a condition that they can't recover from.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 19, 2016, 12:17:44 pm

Hi,

Here is another graph obtained from the same data. It shows the maximum power that can be extracted from an AA cell versus the state of discharge:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=202436;image)

This is very fundamental. You cannot get more power of the cell than is shown on this chart.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on February 19, 2016, 01:23:09 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 19, 2016, 02:19:01 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=202377;image)

That looks like a nasty bit of corrosion from a leaking battery :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on February 20, 2016, 12:26:57 am

Quote from: mikerj on February 19, 2016, 01:23:09 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 19, 2016, 02:19:01 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=202377;image)

That looks like a nasty bit of corrosion from a leaking battery :)

a common effect from over-exhausted batteries


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on February 20, 2016, 10:51:43 am

Quote from: mikerj on February 19, 2016, 01:23:09 pm

That looks like a nasty bit of corrosion from a leaking battery :)

One that's been over-discharged by a voltage booster with no low-end cutoff?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on February 20, 2016, 09:20:56 pm

Quote from: Fungus on February 20, 2016, 10:51:43 am

Quote from: mikerj on February 19, 2016, 01:23:09 pm

That looks like a nasty bit of corrosion from a leaking battery :)

One that's been over-discharged by a voltage booster with no low-end cutoff?

:popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rx8pilot on February 20, 2016, 10:56:57 pm

I am seeing Batteriser posts in my sleep now. I had a dream that I was in the year 2028, logged into the forum and was reading this thread on page 1.26x10⁸

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on February 21, 2016, 12:10:01 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 19, 2016, 02:19:01 am

NEW BATTERISER PHOTO
Jay_Diddy_B

Is that BOOSTERISER equipped battery - LEAKING & CORRODING ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: isaiahA on February 21, 2016, 10:09:58 pm

this post is still active!
batteriser is still a scam!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on February 23, 2016, 03:32:06 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 19, 2016, 02:19:01 am

Meanwhile, over on the Batteriser Facebook page we have:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=202377;image)


Let us see how long the message about the trademark dispute lasts.

Mia Micra  :-+  :clap:

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

And... it's gone. Not just the comment, the whole image. So after being called out on IGG for not having posted images of new batterisers in production, they posted the hairy green rendering and then deleted it soon after. Net photos posted since promise = 0  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on February 23, 2016, 04:13:14 am

If, by now, Bros. Roohparvar cannot even show photos of assemblies or parts thereof, I'd say it's pretty safe to assume that none will be forthcoming. The whole trademark dispute could actually be relatively simply resolved by EDM-ing the logo out of the stamping dies, milling out the logo from the existing plastics and applying a sticker in its place. The logo on the sheet metal should have been pad printed or laser marked from the get-go.

It really looks like the pittance of cash they started with has been burned through and all that's left is to wait for their web-hosting plan and domain registration to expire.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 23, 2016, 10:19:32 am

March
(http://i.imgur.com/iEh5mvk.png)

So they are going to ship the ordered Batterisers, and then later in the year ship a free 9V one to all the backers. With what money? They must have bugger-all left if they ever ship anything.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on February 23, 2016, 10:21:49 am

"...our valued customers..."

They're not your valued customers yet Bobby!
They haven't received what they purchased.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on February 23, 2016, 10:32:08 am

(http://i.imgur.com/iEh5mvk.png)

"...estimating sometime in March to be out ship out data"?

What happened to the "...we are very confident of shipping them in the next two weeks" that they were posting two months ago?  :popcorn:

(oh, right, it was the landslide that got them!)


PS: Does nobody at Batteroo own a camera?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on February 23, 2016, 01:17:18 pm

The only they have takes pictures upside down

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 24, 2016, 12:40:13 pm

Hi,

Today's entertainment comes from the Batteriser Facebook page:


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=203618;image)


From the Batteriser Facebook. We have some link to a website offering guidance on getting an intern position.

And a comment from Mia Micra offering his skills. Subtle, love it !!


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on February 24, 2016, 01:37:31 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 24, 2016, 12:40:13 pm

And a comment from Mia Micra offering his skills. Subtle, love it !!

So funny.   :-DD

PS: Has to be a Brit who posted that. It's too subtle for any other country.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on February 24, 2016, 02:01:01 pm

 Maybe - I can be pretty sarcastic like that. But then I DO love Brit humor, which leaves many friends and family wondering what I find so funny at times. Fawlty Towers and Are You Being Served among my favorites.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AF6LJ on February 24, 2016, 03:11:53 pm

Quote from: Fungus on February 23, 2016, 10:32:08 am

(http://i.imgur.com/iEh5mvk.png)

"...estimating sometime in March to be out ship out data"?

What happened to the "...we are very confident of shipping them in the next two weeks" that they were posting two months ago?  :popcorn:

(oh, right, it was the landslide that got them!)


PS: Does nobody at Batteroo own a camera?

Did they say what year???

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on February 24, 2016, 03:39:33 pm

 I don't think they mentioned the year when they made the November promise. So I guess technically they haven't missed any deadlines. If they wait long enough, the technology may catch up to where the device is small enough AND can handle any current that the bare battery can. Not holding my breath though. Once we get past the year line though, I think we will lose our entertainment, most of the funders will write it off as another bad investment if more than a year goes by with no actual evidence of production.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on February 24, 2016, 04:09:50 pm

Quote from: rrinker on February 24, 2016, 03:39:33 pm

(...) most of the funders will write it off as another bad investment if more than a year goes by with no actual evidence of production.

And Bob Roohparvar will be free to create another scam, another fraudulent crowdfunding project, because most backers won't even remember his name after all this. Give it enough time and all this batteroo scam will be forgotten.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on February 24, 2016, 05:23:43 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on February 24, 2016, 04:09:50 pm

Quote from: rrinker on February 24, 2016, 03:39:33 pm

(...) most of the funders will write it off as another bad investment if more than a year goes by with no actual evidence of production.

And Bob Roohparvar will be free to create another scam, another fraudulent crowdfunding project, because most backers won't even remember his name after all this. Give it enough time and all this batteroo scam will be forgotten.

 Same with so many things - to far too many people, "history" is just a meaningless word.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on February 25, 2016, 01:05:21 am

So, maybe Bob and Co are looking at a low key exit strategy and simply aiming to go quietly into the night.........

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 25, 2016, 01:33:58 am

Hi groups,

Here are todays comments from the IGG campaign:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=203847;image)

We have another non-believer asking for photos. Do these people have no faith?

The comment from Jacky Tang, when translated by Google "when will it ship". As English speaker, a more a accurate translation is "When will this sink like the Titanic?". Feel free to contribute other translations.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on February 25, 2016, 03:51:05 am

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on February 24, 2016, 04:09:50 pm

Quote from: rrinker on February 24, 2016, 03:39:33 pm

(...) most of the funders will write it off as another bad investment if more than a year goes by with no actual evidence of production.

And Bob Roohparvar will be free to create another scam, another fraudulent crowdfunding project, because most backers won't even remember his name after all this. Give it enough time and all this batteroo scam will be forgotten.

Regard anyone who introduces her/himself to you as a "Serial Entrepreneur" with extreme suspicion.  I guarantee this won't be the last we see of some of these players. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on February 25, 2016, 09:22:12 am

Quote from: Brumby on February 25, 2016, 01:05:21 am

So, maybe Bob and Co are looking at a low key exit strategy and simply aiming to go quietly into the night.........

Why? They've got a perfect, blameless out with the Energiser lawsuit.

Who could resist saying "our last product was so good that we were killed by Big Battery"?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 25, 2016, 09:36:17 am

Quote from: Fungus on February 25, 2016, 09:22:12 am

Who could resist saying "our last product was so good that we were killed by Big Battery"?

Odds are it's coming. This curtain won't close without mention of it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on February 25, 2016, 12:35:40 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on February 25, 2016, 09:36:17 am

Quote from: Fungus on February 25, 2016, 09:22:12 am

Who could resist saying "our last product was so good that we were killed by Big Battery"?

Odds are it's coming. This curtain won't close without mention of it.

I think the odds are pretty high as well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on February 26, 2016, 04:56:40 pm

Batt=risfr? They're going full knock-off-branding now?

(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/enhanced/web03/2012/1/20/11/enhanced-buzz-3581-1327077389-4.jpg)
(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/enhanced/web05/2012/1/20/11/enhanced-buzz-22278-1327077989-2.jpg)
(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/enhanced/terminal05/2012/1/20/12/enhanced-buzz-9261-1327080355-8.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: l0rd_hex on February 26, 2016, 05:13:58 pm

Mmmm I'll have a Johnnie Worker neat!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on February 26, 2016, 05:25:57 pm

Quote from: l0rd_hex on February 26, 2016, 05:13:58 pm

Mmmm I'll have a Johnnie Worker neat!

Red Labial?  :-DD


PS: Laphroig...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on February 26, 2016, 06:57:57 pm

The Red Label knock-off can't be worse then the original ;-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on February 26, 2016, 07:49:42 pm

I would not touch it with a 6 foot pole...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on February 26, 2016, 07:50:18 pm

Most of you possibly have already seen this video, but it is another use for the Pooperiser (or Batterpoo)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0utNemFsl8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0utNemFsl8)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on February 26, 2016, 07:58:29 pm

Now I know how Bob got 800%

he drank too much

Johnnie Worker's "Red Labial"

Hard to believe this would fool the Chinese (I used to always take a bottle of Black Label when I went there to give to friends).  They like this stuff.  Maybe this is from the Red Workers days?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: l0rd_hex on February 26, 2016, 10:26:03 pm

At first I thought it was Red Labia... (shudder)  :o

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on February 27, 2016, 03:53:13 am

Well they have another patent up for examination.  Preparation started sometime ago but didn't popup as it wasn't up for examination until recently (public pair system).

Google version:
https://www.google.com/patents/US20150048785 (https://www.google.com/patents/US20150048785)

Very first claim is
"A method for extending the life of a battery, the method comprising:
receiving a battery electrical power output from the battery, the battery electrical power output having a battery output voltage that decreases from a battery first output voltage to a battery second output voltage;
using the battery electrical power output to drive a converter that outputs a converter electrical power having a converter output voltage greater than the battery second output voltage; and
outputting the converter electrical power from one or more output terminals configured to interface with one or more input terminals of a battery powered device, the converter being (a) configured and supported relative to the battery to interface with one or more output terminals of the battery, or (b) embedded within the battery, wherein the converter electrical power output is outputted via terminals of the battery."

Isn't this just a generic regulated battery pack?

Every major claim after that starts with: method for extending the life of a battery... something something.. voltage regulator... something.
The last examiner had a problem with that on the other patent, as some battery protection devices extend the life of the battery by protecting the cell from damage by use of a voltage regulator.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on February 27, 2016, 04:05:51 am

Anyone notice what seemed to be legal speak and responsibility transfer in the last batteriser update?

Quote

Dear Friends,
...
While facing the challenge of working during the Chinese New Year holiday season, two of our executive team members have been in China and Taiwan working very closely with our contract manufacturer these past few weeks. As a result of this productive collaboration and our team’s diligence, our Contract Manufacturer has confirmed their commitment to ship Batterisers this coming March. We are absolutely thrilled to be this close to having the Batteriser shipped out to all of our Indiegogo supporters. It’s been a long road, but we are more excited than ever to bring all of you extended battery life and savings to the environment. I wish you all a Happy Lunar New Year, full of blessings and joy for you and your loved ones.
....
CEO | Batteroo, Inc.

In the US, you can be sued for not performing due diligence when dealing with investor money or selling products.

State you've done due diligence -> transfer future responsibility to contract manufacture in some other country (which is either China or Taiwan or both).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: warp_foo on February 27, 2016, 04:36:34 am

Quote from: Fungus on February 26, 2016, 05:25:57 pm

Quote from: l0rd_hex on February 26, 2016, 05:13:58 pm

Mmmm I'll have a Johnnie Worker neat!

Red Labial?  :-DD


PS: Laphroig...

Almost... Ardbeg 17

m

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 27, 2016, 05:46:16 am

Hi group,

I have had a quick look at the patent Application that was reported by ChunkyPastaSauce. There are some interesting details shown in the patent application.

The Construction

This drawing from the patent shows a very similar construction that to the one shown on the IGG campaign. It shows an insulator, or coating, item 719, to protect the electronics.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=204327;image)

It would look very similar to the construction that I posted in this message:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg849800/#msg849800 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg849800/#msg849800)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196488;image)

The 9V Version

The application now includes pictures of the 9V version. This shows how the 9V version extends the length of the battery by the height of the terminals plus the thickness of the board.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=204329;image)

Schematic

The patent application includes this schematic:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=204331;image)

The schematic includes the body sizes of some of the components. These are similar to the ones that I used. It doesn't say how they will fit the AAA cell.

Buck-Boost

The application includes the possibility of a buck-boost architecture. This allows for the output voltage to be lowered when the battery is fresh and boosted when the battery is discharged. This requires extra semiconductors in the current path and incurring extra losses.
This would allow the output to be held constant at say 1.2V This would help with devices that use LDO regulators or a resistive load.

It also prevents circumvention of the patent by replacing the boost supply with a buck-boost.

Claims

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=204333;image)

The claims are the most important part of the patent application. There are some features listed in the claims.

Having an output that fails as the cell is discharged, but at a lower rate. This goes to make battery gauge work a little bit better than if the output voltage was held constant.

Remember this is an application. The prior application was challenged by the examiner. I have not looked to if the challenges have been addressed. But it seems the construction of the sleeve has been pushed down to higher claim numbers. The higher claims are generally less important than the first few claims.


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on February 27, 2016, 06:14:49 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 27, 2016, 05:46:16 am

Remember this is an application. The prior application was challenged by the examiner. I have not looked to if the challenges have been addressed.

Checked the PAIR system earlier today, doesn't seem to to be addressed any further except the examiner formalized a non-final rejection notice (for all claims that weren't canceled). I think it's marked as non-final because of the appeal... but dunno.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on February 27, 2016, 06:36:02 am

They seem to be using a variant of the Linear Technology LTC3400 (P346 on their schematics), not a proprietary converter as they claim:

http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/70868/LINER/LTC3400/126/1/LTC3400.html (http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/70868/LINER/LTC3400/126/1/LTC3400.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on February 27, 2016, 06:46:30 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on February 27, 2016, 06:36:02 am

They seem to be using a variant of the Linear Technology LTC3400 (P346 on their schematics), not a proprietary converter as they claim:

http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/70868/LINER/LTC3400/126/1/LTC3400.html (http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/70868/LINER/LTC3400/126/1/LTC3400.html)

I'm seeing only 600mA of output on that one. Hmmm.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 27, 2016, 06:51:20 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on February 27, 2016, 06:36:02 am

They seem to be using a variant of the Linear Technology LTC3400 (P346 on their schematics), not a proprietary converter as they claim:

http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/70868/LINER/LTC3400/126/1/LTC3400.html (http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/70868/LINER/LTC3400/126/1/LTC3400.html)

The pin number match the LTC3526L:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=204342;image)


The first page of the datasheet suggests using this part to extend the life of batteries by discharging down to 0.5V

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=204344;image)

The LTC3526L was released in 2007. The copyright notice is on the bottom of the last page of the datasheet.

This part is good for around 200mA, o.k. for the wireless keyboard, but no good for high drain devices.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on February 27, 2016, 06:52:51 am

600mA with a 2.2uH inductor would be generous...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 27, 2016, 06:56:14 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on February 27, 2016, 06:46:30 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on February 27, 2016, 06:36:02 am

They seem to be using a variant of the Linear Technology LTC3400 (P346 on their schematics), not a proprietary converter as they claim:

http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/70868/LINER/LTC3400/126/1/LTC3400.html (http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/70868/LINER/LTC3400/126/1/LTC3400.html)

I'm seeing only 600mA of output on that one. Hmmm.....

The LTC3400 has a minimum output voltage of 2.5V. The output voltage is used to power the internals of the chip after start up. The 600mA is the switch current rating not the output rating. With a boost converter the switch has to be rated higher than the output current.

The LTC3400 can be ruled out.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on February 27, 2016, 06:58:09 am

Yes, the 7 pin variant is more likely. Regardless, the output current with a 2.2uH inductor will be low.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 27, 2016, 07:05:40 am

Hi,

I had a 2.2uH inductor in the one that I built. I used the LTC3539 It has a 2A switch.

Here is the schematic:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=204346;image)

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: RobertoLG on February 27, 2016, 07:14:07 am

oh my, at least you get some god laughs out this stuff, red labial  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on February 27, 2016, 07:38:13 am

What max output current (at 1.5V) did you get with a 1MHz switching frequency from a AA battery?
Was the inductor rated for 2A, while still fitting in the space available?
What was the efficiency of the conversion like at that output?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 27, 2016, 07:48:58 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 27, 2016, 06:51:20 am

The pin number match the LTC3526L:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=204342;image)

That's quite the coincidence. Even the thermal pad ground pin matches.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 27, 2016, 07:51:12 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 27, 2016, 05:46:16 am

Schematic
The patent application includes this schematic:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=204331;image)

 :-DD The schematic is wrong!  :palm:
/EN is connected to Vin. If it's truly NOT EN then I don't think it's going to work too well...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 27, 2016, 07:59:37 am

Quote from: EEVblog on February 27, 2016, 07:51:12 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 27, 2016, 05:46:16 am

Schematic
The patent application includes this schematic:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=204331;image)

 :-DD The schematic is wrong!  :palm:
/EN is connected to Vin. If it's truly NOT EN then I don't think it's going to work too well...

There is another mistake the values of R1 and R2 are transposed if this is the LTC3526.

As shown the output voltage is

Vout = 1.195 (1 + R1/R2) = 1.195 (1+ 499/180) = 4.50V

If they are the other way:

Vout = 1.195 (1+180/499) = 1.626V

The minimum output voltage for the LTC3526 is 1.6V, another confirmation that this is probably the LTC3526.

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on February 27, 2016, 08:06:45 am

Reading through the datasheet, it seems that EN can be pulled high with Vin if it is kept above 0.8V. Will be pulled low below 0.3V

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on February 27, 2016, 08:07:32 am

When SHDN is high, then it is in operation mode, when low it is in shutdown.  However, vin can go as low as 0.5V,  SHDN is indeterminate below 0.8V and above 0.3V .....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 27, 2016, 08:30:40 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 27, 2016, 07:59:37 am

There is another mistake the values of R1 and R2 are transposed if this is the LTC3526.

If the patent values are right, then the internal reference voltage would have to be 0.54V to get a 1.5V output using the displayed values. Not going to happen.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on February 27, 2016, 08:31:23 am

What is more entertaining than Vaporware ? Unrealistic Vaporware  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 27, 2016, 08:32:21 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on February 27, 2016, 08:06:45 am

Reading through the datasheet, it seems that EN can be pulled high with Vin if it is kept above 0.8V. Will be pulled low below 0.3V

The point is their patent shows NOT EN (active low), but it's tied high. It can't work as shown.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on February 27, 2016, 08:41:11 am

'The LTC3526/LTC3526B can utilize small surface mount chip inductors due to their fast 1MHz switching frequency. Inductor values between 3.3µH and 6.8µH are suitable for most applications.'

The value of 2.2uH for the switching inductor in their diagram is low and will reduce output current quite a bit, if they are using this converter (<100mA).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on February 27, 2016, 08:45:13 am

If the Batteriser do ship with an unknown IC (rebranded/scratched off), would we be able to tell which manufacturer it's from? Do they all engrave their logo/name on the die?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: The Electrician on February 27, 2016, 09:56:52 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 27, 2016, 06:56:14 am

The LTC3400 can be ruled out.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Jay_Diddy_B, can you do a constant power discharge of a fresh AA cell, plotting the discharge curve?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on February 27, 2016, 10:18:17 am

I was looking for a converter (LTC3400) with a part reference similar to theirs (P346). Can we assume that the part reference Batteroo quoted was pulled out of a hat?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on February 27, 2016, 11:42:04 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 27, 2016, 06:56:14 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on February 27, 2016, 06:46:30 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on February 27, 2016, 06:36:02 am

They seem to be using a variant of the Linear Technology LTC3400 (P346 on their schematics), not a proprietary converter as they claim:

http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/70868/LINER/LTC3400/126/1/LTC3400.html (http://html.alldatasheet.com/html-pdf/70868/LINER/LTC3400/126/1/LTC3400.html)

I'm seeing only 600mA of output on that one. Hmmm.....

The 600mA is the switch current rating not the output rating. With a boost converter the switch has to be rated higher than the output current.

 :palm: Oh geez...of course!  I should know that. Thanks for being a good professor JDB!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 27, 2016, 12:24:38 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on February 27, 2016, 12:01:54 pm

The point must be, is this such a new idea and solution that they will be granted a patent on it? What is new?  :-//

The only possible thing is the physical implementation of the sleeve. Anything else is so prior art and "obvious to the trade" it's a joke.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 27, 2016, 12:26:06 pm

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on February 27, 2016, 08:45:13 am

If the Batteriser do ship with an unknown IC (rebranded/scratched off), would we be able to tell which manufacturer it's from? Do they all engrave their logo/name on the die?

You can bet your bottom dollar that someone will de-encapsulate it and put it under a microscope.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on February 27, 2016, 12:37:41 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on February 27, 2016, 08:32:21 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on February 27, 2016, 08:06:45 am

Reading through the datasheet, it seems that EN can be pulled high with Vin if it is kept above 0.8V. Will be pulled low below 0.3V

The point is their patent shows NOT EN (active low), but it's tied high. It can't work as shown.

Maybe it's like one of Leonardo Da Vinci's plans, they all had a subtle mistake in them so the device wouldn't work if you copied the design as-is.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on February 27, 2016, 01:50:10 pm

Quote from: warp_foo on February 27, 2016, 04:36:34 am

Quote from: Fungus on February 26, 2016, 05:25:57 pm

Quote from: l0rd_hex on February 26, 2016, 05:13:58 pm

Mmmm I'll have a Johnnie Worker neat!

Red Labial?  :-DD


PS: Laphroig...

Almost... Ardbeg 17

m

Will I meet any of you electronic whisky nerds on Islay (http://www.islayfestival.com/) this May? Curious about the 200yrs Lagavulin festival bottle.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on February 27, 2016, 02:22:31 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on February 27, 2016, 12:24:38 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on February 27, 2016, 12:01:54 pm

The point must be, is this such a new idea and solution that they will be granted a patent on it? What is new?  :-//

The only possible thing is the physical implementation of the sleeve. Anything else is so prior art and "obvious to the trade" it's a joke.

In reading through the posts of the last 24 hours, this exact thought kept nagging at me.  The electrical concept is ancient (in electronics terms) and only the physical implementation is 'new'.

Unless they really have developed a new chip that does something special, this horse is on its knees and ready for a faceplant.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on February 27, 2016, 02:45:32 pm

Quote from: Brumby on February 27, 2016, 02:22:31 pm

Unless they really have developed a new chip that does something special, this horse is on its knees and ready for a faceplant.

In that case, shouldn't there be a patent request specific to the chip itself?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on February 27, 2016, 02:53:07 pm

Quote from: jippie on February 27, 2016, 01:50:10 pm

Will I meet any of you electronic whisky nerds on Islay (http://www.islayfestival.com/) this May? Curious about the 200yrs Lagavulin festival bottle.

Not this year...

(I've done that tour though, have fun!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on February 27, 2016, 02:55:12 pm

These chips take months to develop and cost a small fortune. Batteroo is using off the shelf components, except for their sleeve, which is the source of all their reliability problems.
As for their 9V battery clip, the whole contraption is so tall that it will seldom fit in existing compartments. Fail.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on February 27, 2016, 03:01:30 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on February 27, 2016, 02:45:32 pm

Quote from: Brumby on February 27, 2016, 02:22:31 pm

Unless they really have developed a new chip that does something special, this horse is on its knees and ready for a faceplant.

In that case, shouldn't there be a patent request specific to the chip itself?

I would certainly expect one.  It's the only way they could save face, because, from the current evidence available, their present path seems to be going nowhere.

The lack of any such patent application suggests they don't have a practical solution.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 27, 2016, 03:05:38 pm

Hi group,

There is nothing new about the schematic. The application for battery life extension is stated on the LTC3526 datasheet published in 2007.

AAA implementation


I was successful in building a boost converter in the AA form factor. I wanted to see if the AAA form factor was possible.


(The PCB is 10mm diameter (2 Bs' D)

Here is my schematic:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=204427;image)

And here is component placement for an AAA size boost converter:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=204429;image)

It would be possible to route this arrangement without too much difficulty. I have reduced the size of the input and output capacitor to 0402. Digikey has 0402 4.7uF at 4V  X5R.

I used a 1.6mm x 1.6mm MAPI inductor from Wurth. This inductor has a DCR of 338m Ohms.

It is possible to build this circuit in the required space.

LTspice Model of the AAA solution

I constructed an LTspice model to see what kind of performance can be expected from this implementation.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=204431;image)

Modelling Results

It works well enough to fool a VC monkey. The output is limited to 150mA with a 1.2V battery.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=204433;image)

At 1.0V input.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=204435;image)

Now I could probably squeeze a little more output with a larger inductor, but not much more.


 :-- :-- :--

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 27, 2016, 03:16:02 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on February 27, 2016, 02:45:32 pm

Quote from: Brumby on February 27, 2016, 02:22:31 pm

Unless they really have developed a new chip that does something special, this horse is on its knees and ready for a faceplant.

In that case, shouldn't there be a patent request specific to the chip itself?

Chip manufacturers' will typically patent the features of chip that allows it to function in a specific application. They don't typically patent the application. They want to allow people to use the chips in as many applications as possible. They want to prevent other chip manufacturers' offering competing products. An 'Application' patent would be too narrow to be useful.

The application to specific problem is typically patented by the purchaser of the chip.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 27, 2016, 03:24:35 pm

Quote from: The Electrician on February 27, 2016, 09:56:52 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 27, 2016, 06:56:14 am

The LTC3400 can be ruled out.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Jay_Diddy_B, can you do a constant power discharge of a fresh AA cell, plotting the discharge curve?

The Electrician,

What are you hoping to see? My HP load does not offer a constant power discharge mode. It could be done using the HPIB control to modify the current drawn as the voltage drops. I am not sure that it would have high enough resolution. It is a 300W load.

I have a accurate SPICE model of an AA battery that was made from measured data. This could be used to get a really good idea.

Have a look at this thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/modeling-an-alkaline-battery-in-ltspice/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/modeling-an-alkaline-battery-in-ltspice/)

in reply #4 I model a constant power discharge.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 27, 2016, 03:31:16 pm

Hi,

I think I have earned a shot of 'Jolly Woker - Red Labia #1'. I have a copy of copy.. :-DD

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 27, 2016, 03:44:26 pm

Meanwhile on the Batteriser Facebook page we have:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=204441;image)

Lakshimi Narasimhan is listed as a campaigner on IGG.
https://www.indiegogo.com/individuals/11057878 (https://www.indiegogo.com/individuals/11057878)


Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on February 27, 2016, 04:00:30 pm

but again, its vague meaningless non-info

"shipping dates are coming soon!" could mean than in a month they will tell you they are going to ship in October.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on February 27, 2016, 04:03:23 pm

I sure wish they would hurry up and ship the damn things. I am almost out of pop corn  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: The Electrician on February 27, 2016, 04:08:45 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 27, 2016, 03:24:35 pm

Quote from: The Electrician on February 27, 2016, 09:56:52 am

Jay_Diddy_B, can you do a constant power discharge of a fresh AA cell, plotting the discharge curve?

The Electrician,

What are you hoping to see? My HP load does not offer a constant power discharge mode. It could be done using the HPIB control to modify the current drawn as the voltage drops. I am not sure that it would have high enough resolution. It is a 300W load.

I have a accurate SPICE model of an AA battery that was made from measured data. This could be used to get a really good idea.

Have a look at this thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/modeling-an-alkaline-battery-in-ltspice/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/modeling-an-alkaline-battery-in-ltspice/)

in reply #4 I model a constant power discharge.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

I was hoping to see exactly what your reply #4 shows in that other thread.  With a constant power load and high efficiency in the converter, the battery current rises rapidly as the battery life ends and there is no warning that the battery output is about to very rapidly collapse.  i gather that the Batteriser does allow the output voltage to drop a little as the battery is exhausted, but I don't think it is what typical devices will be expecting, and therefore their low battery indicator won't give a proper indication.

If the Batteriser people will have to come up with a new name, how about "Suck-it-dry"?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on February 27, 2016, 04:13:25 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 27, 2016, 03:44:26 pm

Meanwhile on the Batteriser Facebook page we have:

www.baterriser.com (http://www.baterriser.com) ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on February 27, 2016, 04:28:30 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 27, 2016, 03:44:26 pm

Meanwhile on the Batteriser Facebook page we have:

<SNIP>

Jay_Diddy_B

Similar message on Twitter (https://twitter.com/GoBatteriser/status/703389184921346048), but the communications department logged on with the right username.

Or maybe the guy on facebook is just enthusiastic and copied the message from Twitter.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/?action=dlattach;attach=204478;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on February 27, 2016, 04:36:17 pm

Quote from: jippie on February 27, 2016, 04:28:30 pm

Similar message on Twitter, but the communications department logged on with the right username.

But still the wrong url.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on February 27, 2016, 04:40:23 pm

I mentioned it before: I just don't get it that news related to the campaign appears on secondary channels first.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on February 27, 2016, 05:26:18 pm

Batt=risfr? Baterriser?

"Your honor, we can't violate energizers trademark because we have no idea what our product is called."

I wonder if they're desperately trying to rebrand but no one is on the same page as to the new name.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on February 27, 2016, 06:58:37 pm

 Yes, that 9V design is just fail button worthy. The ONE place I actually could use a boost converter like that, it would never fit. The throttle unit for my model railroad DCC system was unfortunately designed to use a 9V battery AND it's very voltage sensitive. It doesn't actually draw a lot of power, but when the voltage falls to about 8.4V it gets flakey - which almost totally rules out using standard '9V' rechargeables. I would ne nice if they redesigned the thing to use a low voltage micro so it could run off a pair of AA batteries. There IS room inside if I build a small converter though....
 And of course the obvious DANGEROUS fail was already pointed out, when people whack them into smoke alarms and it defeats the low battery warning.

 Probably these latest notices are because they said March, and it's almost March now, thus "coming soon!" SO, what will be the next excuse? There needs to be a reworked Magic 8 Ball with potential Batteriser excuses on the faces so we can randomly generate one. Anything going on in China after the end of the New year celebration? More landslides? Will this be the time they trot out the "persecuted by Big Battery" excuse? Stay tuned for the next episode of "As the Battery Discharges"

"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 28, 2016, 02:39:32 am

Hi,

Is just me or has this message on the Batteriser Facebook gone already?


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=204441;image)


If has gone, it would seem that Dr. Bob does not want any mention of a ship date.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on February 28, 2016, 04:07:12 am

Well they are promising to ship in 30 days batteriser.com for people ordering today
 
(http://i.imgur.com/EpHwtqV.gif)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on February 28, 2016, 05:33:05 am

Quote

Well they are promising to ship in 30 days batteriser.com for people ordering today

Now we will see how many days "30 days" are, like 800 %

We should take bets.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on February 28, 2016, 07:35:40 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on February 28, 2016, 02:39:32 am

Hi,

Is just me or has this message on the Batteriser Facebook gone already?

<SNIP>

Batteriser's Twitter entry is gonski too. Luckily we still have the pictures.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 28, 2016, 08:45:16 am

Quote from: PA0PBZ on February 27, 2016, 04:13:25 pm

www.baterriser.com (http://www.baterriser.com) ?

Can't even get their own URL right  :palm:
Domain not even registered.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on February 28, 2016, 09:47:42 am

Quote from: EEVblog on February 28, 2016, 08:45:16 am

Quote from: PA0PBZ on February 27, 2016, 04:13:25 pm

www.baterriser.com (http://www.baterriser.com) ?

Can't even get their own URL right  :palm:
Domain not even registered.

Somebody register it, quick! We can can put our own message board up there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on February 28, 2016, 02:50:17 pm

Quote from: Fungus on February 28, 2016, 09:47:42 am

Quote from: EEVblog on February 28, 2016, 08:45:16 am

Quote from: PA0PBZ on February 27, 2016, 04:13:25 pm

www.baterriser.com (http://www.baterriser.com) ?

Can't even get their own URL right  :palm:
Domain not even registered.

Somebody register it, quick! We can can put our own message board up there.

Done. (Seriously. I've got it for a year. One advantage of having a well funded account with eNom, from my days in the hosting business.)

Should I redirect it to Goatse, 2G1C or Lemon Party? Decisions, decisions...

Oh! Maybe I could photoshop Energizer batteries shooting out of the Goatse man's gaping chasm!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on February 28, 2016, 03:01:29 pm

While tempting, those are all a bit childish.

Seems like the best thing to do is redirect it to EEVblog 751 on YT, or alternatively to this forum.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on February 28, 2016, 03:22:29 pm

Should we go back to electronics and stop these games? It makes the blog look like trollcentral.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on February 28, 2016, 03:54:39 pm

Quote from: Kean on February 28, 2016, 03:01:29 pm

While tempting, those are all a bit childish.

Seems like the best thing to do is redirect it to EEVblog 751 on YT, or alternatively to this forum.

Linking to the debunking video is the best option.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on February 29, 2016, 12:22:56 am

Quote from: jancumps on February 28, 2016, 03:22:29 pm

Should we go back to electronics and stop these games? It makes the blog look like trollcentral.

An understandable sentiment, but we - and the rest of the world - are STILL WAITING for the electronics to make it's debut!

So what do we do while we wait ... ignore the matter???


I'm sure Bob would like us all to let it fade into a foggy memory.

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on February 29, 2016, 12:51:18 am

I was joking about directing it to a shock image/video (though, I can see why that might not be obvious). I think I'll put up a page with the debunking video embedded and a link to this thread.

It only cost me a couple of dollars, so why not.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on February 29, 2016, 09:27:53 am

Quote from: jancumps on February 28, 2016, 03:22:29 pm

Should we go back to electronics and stop these games? It makes the blog look like trollcentral.

But keeping this tread alive attracts a lot of visitors, pays the EevBlog bills, so there is no need for extra and/or annoying adds on the forum.
Everybody happy.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 29, 2016, 10:47:20 am

Hi,

Meanwhile, on the IGG campaign we have:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=204873;image)

and

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=204875;image)

Just in case they get deleted when they wake up in California.

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on February 29, 2016, 01:16:32 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on February 29, 2016, 09:27:53 am

Quote from: jancumps on February 28, 2016, 03:22:29 pm

Should we go back to electronics and stop these games? It makes the blog look like trollcentral.

But keeping this tread alive attracts a lot of visitors, pays the EevBlog bills, so there is no need for extra and/or annoying adds on the forum.
Everybody happy.

Yeah, my comment was not on posting in this thread, but specific on registering that domain and doing funny things with it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on February 29, 2016, 02:32:45 pm

I think all the 'funny things' was just throwing out some outrageous ideas - commensurate with the outrageous treatment of the Batteriser patrons.  They were just using the material Bob and Co presented and was probably a bit cathartic.

More considered thoughts were presented for possible implementation.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on February 29, 2016, 06:17:36 pm

Do a redirect or a page with 2 links, one to the YT video and another to this thread. As well make the admin password incredibly long and complex, and only use a plain HTML page so it is under 5k in size so the server and all the assorted caches can keep it alive easily. No adverts, no statcounter just a plain page, the web backend stats will be good enough as to page hits.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on February 29, 2016, 08:23:56 pm

What amazes me is that despite this thread and all the debunking videos, only now the backers are truly realising baterizer was  a scam the entire time. Shame on them for choosing to be blind for so long.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on February 29, 2016, 09:59:21 pm

Quote from: WN1X on February 27, 2016, 04:03:23 pm

I sure wish they would hurry up and ship the damn things. I am almost out of pop corn  :popcorn:

Here's a bit for all of us :
http://i.imgur.com/JlJeB7K.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/JlJeB7K.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on February 29, 2016, 10:02:41 pm

Quote from: timb on February 28, 2016, 02:50:17 pm

Should I redirect it to Goatse, 2G1C or Lemon Party?

EEVblog would do :)
And it would fund dave from a few more clicks  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 29, 2016, 10:39:23 pm

"Planing" for late March.
And they'll get "the team" to take some photos
(http://i.imgur.com/EJMl3gt.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on February 29, 2016, 11:14:04 pm

Shipping late March? What year?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on March 01, 2016, 01:06:15 am

Quote from: WN1X on February 29, 2016, 11:14:04 pm

Shipping late March? What year?

20016

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on March 01, 2016, 02:06:30 am

Hi group,

Just so you don't miss out Mia Micra has raised the bar again, Here is the latest from the Batteriser Facebook page:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=205040;image)

The man is genius !! Rex Hewses is 'excuses'.

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 01, 2016, 05:08:22 am

Quote from: ez24 on February 28, 2016, 05:33:05 am

Quote

Well they are promising to ship in 30 days batteriser.com for people ordering today

Now we will see how many days "30 days" are, like 800 %

We should take bets.

Pretty sure it has said 30 days for awhile (like months)....  Dibs on inf+  :box:

The amount that has to get done, is the bare minimum to not get sued..and that doesn't necessarily mean shipping.

Very hard for anything to happen, let alone a push to ship, when people aren't in it. Bob Roohparvar seems to be teaching courses this semester. Frankie Roohparvar (Skyera CEO) and Mitchell Nishi (VP Finance Skyera) have Skyera to run (bought by HGST about a year ago for something like $100M). Warren Flick seems to have left in December or earlier. This was their core team on the Indigogo. Even marketing seems to have 99-100% dropped off with only twitter and facebook on apparently autopilot by a (very) cheap PR service.

Also the burn rate, 500k and upto 1 million from SK just isn't much when you have 10 employees, legal, offices, 'development', manufacturing. And now it looks like they are looking for some government $$ (https://www.sam.gov (https://www.sam.gov)   -> search records   ->   DUNS:079962092).  If they don't ship right away... money likely to go poof if hasn't already.

Trademarks dispute....you have to be nuts to ship before clearing that up..it's Energizer, and possibly patent

Then you have the investment agreement... SK innopartners brought Batteroo in March 31 2015...
According to SK white paper, http://sktainnopartners.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/InnopartnersWhitePaper_8-19-2014.pdf (http://sktainnopartners.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/InnopartnersWhitePaper_8-19-2014.pdf)

"Invitation to the Accelerator The initial seed funding ranges up to $1 million provided to the company in the form of a promissory note."
...
"The Seed Phase lasts for 6 to 12 months. At the conclusion of this phase, the startup raises a Series A round."

So March 31 2016 is likely the end of their seed phase agreement and it sure seems like they haven't reached Series A...... which, I think, suggest some mechanism triggers in the investment agreement with SK on March 31 2016

All speculation though ...probably eat my shoe tomorrow  :P

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 01, 2016, 05:14:04 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 01, 2016, 05:08:22 am

Also the burn rate, 500k and upto 1 million from SK just isn't much when you have 10 employees, legal, offices, 'development', manufacturing. And now it looks like they are looking for some government $$ (https://www.sam.gov (https://www.sam.gov)   -> search records   ->   DUNS:079962092).  If they don't ship right away... money likely to go poof if hasn't already.

Interesting.
(http://i.imgur.com/rdKiVLN.png)
What were they applying for?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 01, 2016, 06:02:47 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 01, 2016, 05:14:04 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 01, 2016, 05:08:22 am

Also the burn rate, 500k and upto 1 million from SK just isn't much when you have 10 employees, legal, offices, 'development', manufacturing. And now it looks like they are looking for some government $$ (https://www.sam.gov (https://www.sam.gov)   -> search records   ->   DUNS:079962092).  If they don't ship right away... money likely to go poof if hasn't already.

Interesting.

What were they applying for?

Not sure, they may have not applied yet. The DUNS application is often the first step for companies interacting with the government. This DUNS application says "Purpose of Registration: Federal Assistance Awards Only", which you probably saw.

Initially came across from a database on the SBIR (Small Business Innovation Research) / STTR (Small Business Technology Transfer) site in a miscellaneous excel sheet. A clean entry is here https://www.sbir.gov/sbirsearch/detail/828467, (https://www.sbir.gov/sbirsearch/detail/828467,) but basically same as the DUNS information except stating no awards yet (which they wouldn't have even if they applied right away.. 6 month cycles for SBIR).

The SBIR program is designed to attempt to drive and commercialize technologies in usually broad areas of interest the government has, usually benefiting people / economy / defense / health care or whatever.

Program is broken into three phases. 1st phase you get $150,000 for 6 months, if you do well, meet your goals, and your program manager likes you, you can apply for phase 2.
Phase 2, if you're accepted, you get $1,000,000 over two years. There is a third phase with no cash, but puts you in a position to approach other programs for more $$$, and they expect you to enter the market. You fail too hard or too many times,  you can be blacklisted.

I've worked with a few companies in the SBIR 1 and 2 phases. SBIR can be very good but also annoying. You have to meet everything you said you would, otherwise you jeopardize phase 2... and you want phase 2. You are also checked during phase 2. So it makes it more difficult to 'pivot' if you need to because you've already promised certain things upfront. Stuff like accounting must be done 100%, so somethings become more tedious.

But if you make it into phase 2..... you're likely doing much better than if you took $1,000,000 from somewhere else.

Also, the SBIR companies Ive worked with, entered phase 1 earlier compared to Batteroo (Batteroo says they will be in the market next month, while the companies I worked with were a few years out)...don't know if this is what they are really targeting, if anything, but maybe a possibility if you need cash.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on March 01, 2016, 06:22:55 am

Batteroo taking money from the US Government is the single, dumbest thing they could ever do. It opens them and SK Telecom (the deep pocket) open to a fraud, waste, and abuse lawsuit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on March 01, 2016, 06:43:24 am

Not sure if it has been mentioned before or is even relevant but these people have more moves than a chess game.

http://www.storagenewsletter.com/rubriques/people/frankie-roohparvar-boards-directors-and-chief-strategy-officer-xitore/ (http://www.storagenewsletter.com/rubriques/people/frankie-roohparvar-boards-directors-and-chief-strategy-officer-xitore/)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/04/xitores_flashing_fast_stealth_exit/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/04/xitores_flashing_fast_stealth_exit/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 01, 2016, 06:50:53 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on March 01, 2016, 06:22:55 am

Batteroo taking money from the US Government is the single, dumbest thing they could ever do. It opens them and SK Telecom (the deep pocket) open to a fraud, waste, and abuse lawsuit.

SK probably not. Batteroo maybe. A lot of companies over promise going into phase 1, phase 1 is high risk funding often for high risk tech. Companies in phase 1 often find they have technical problems and cant reach what they are trying to do (if they do that too many time or too hard, individuals can be blacklisted from the awards).  Totally depends on what they put into their application and how they execute, if they get the award at all. I can tell you there is a scary oversight guy with the sole purpose of finding fraud and abuse... and he enjoys it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 01, 2016, 06:55:10 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on March 01, 2016, 06:43:24 am

Not sure if it has been mentioned before or is even relevant but these people have more moves than a chess game.

http://www.storagenewsletter.com/rubriques/people/frankie-roohparvar-boards-directors-and-chief-strategy-officer-xitore/ (http://www.storagenewsletter.com/rubriques/people/frankie-roohparvar-boards-directors-and-chief-strategy-officer-xitore/)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/04/xitores_flashing_fast_stealth_exit/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/04/xitores_flashing_fast_stealth_exit/)

lol was already seriously doubting Batteriser was on Frankie Roohparvars radar anymore.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on March 01, 2016, 09:20:17 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 01, 2016, 06:55:10 am

lol was already seriously doubting Batteriser was on Frankie Roohparvars radar anymore.

Isn't he doing well!

I wonder if he still remembers his humble beginnings, the smell of the dumpsters in Milpitas...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on March 01, 2016, 09:30:39 am

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on February 29, 2016, 08:23:56 pm

What amazes me is that despite this thread and all the debunking videos, only now the backers are truly realising baterizer was  a scam the entire time. Shame on them for choosing to be blind for so long.

just don't feel pity for them, because they are already falling into the next scam.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on March 01, 2016, 09:34:05 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on March 01, 2016, 02:06:30 am

Hi group,

Just so you don't miss out Mia Micra has raised the bar again, Here is the latest from the Batteriser Facebook page:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=205040;image)

The man is genius !! Rex Hewses is 'excuses'.

Jay_Diddy_B

LMAO :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 01, 2016, 11:37:04 am

Quote from: Fungus on March 01, 2016, 09:20:17 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 01, 2016, 06:55:10 am

lol was already seriously doubting Batteriser was on Frankie Roohparvars radar anymore.

Isn't he doing well!
I wonder if he still remembers his humble beginnings, the smell of the dumpsters in Milpitas...

Ah, the adventures of the snail in the well, those were the days...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on March 01, 2016, 02:44:30 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on March 01, 2016, 06:43:24 am

Not sure if it has been mentioned before or is even relevant but these people have more moves than a chess game.

http://www.storagenewsletter.com/rubriques/people/frankie-roohparvar-boards-directors-and-chief-strategy-officer-xitore/ (http://www.storagenewsletter.com/rubriques/people/frankie-roohparvar-boards-directors-and-chief-strategy-officer-xitore/)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/04/xitores_flashing_fast_stealth_exit/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/04/xitores_flashing_fast_stealth_exit/)

I don't know why, but the Xistore promises smell at least as good as the Batteroo one!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: vitormhenrique on March 01, 2016, 05:20:28 pm

I reeeeeeeelly wanted them to deliver something, we all knew that it was bullshit but i wanted to but on the bench and do some tests, and debunk this project (if we needed more proof for debunk it)...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on March 01, 2016, 07:54:08 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 01, 2016, 06:50:53 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on March 01, 2016, 06:22:55 am

Batteroo taking money from the US Government is the single, dumbest thing they could ever do. It opens them and SK Telecom (the deep pocket) open to a fraud, waste, and abuse lawsuit.

SK probably not. Batteroo maybe. A lot of companies over promise going into phase 1, phase 1 is high risk funding often for high risk tech. Companies in phase 1 often find they have technical problems and cant reach what they are trying to do (if they do that too many time or too hard, individuals can be blacklisted from the awards).  Totally depends on what they put into their application and how they execute, if they get the award at all. I can tell you there is a scary oversight guy with the sole purpose of finding fraud and abuse... and he enjoys it.

I think one could make a very strong argument that SK is a witting business partner, particularly in light of them sharing a corporate address.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 01, 2016, 08:30:46 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on March 01, 2016, 07:54:08 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 01, 2016, 06:50:53 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on March 01, 2016, 06:22:55 am

Batteroo taking money from the US Government is the single, dumbest thing they could ever do. It opens them and SK Telecom (the deep pocket) open to a fraud, waste, and abuse lawsuit.

SK probably not. Batteroo maybe. A lot of companies over promise going into phase 1, phase 1 is high risk funding often for high risk tech. Companies in phase 1 often find they have technical problems and cant reach what they are trying to do (if they do that too many time or too hard, individuals can be blacklisted from the awards).  Totally depends on what they put into their application and how they execute, if they get the award at all. I can tell you there is a scary oversight guy with the sole purpose of finding fraud and abuse... and he enjoys it.

I think one could make a very strong argument that SK is a witting business partner, particularly in light of them sharing a corporate address.

So far, nothing suggests SK is involved in anything, other than a possibly bad investment choice... sharing an address is normal for an accelerator.  SK decided to invest in Batteroo, probably doing so with a promissory note. Batteroo likely used those funds from that note to lease space/equipment from SK, but are considered separate entities. It may have been part of the deal (both because investors often want people close, and because SK might have thought the resources improves Batteroos chance of success), but not because they form some-sort of legal coop or whatever. If anything, if for some reason Batteroo was found to be fraudulent, SK would likely be able to go after Batteroo. I think SK would be viewed as victims unless something really screwed-up was going on between the two (and haven't seen anything to suggest that).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on March 01, 2016, 09:23:29 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 01, 2016, 08:30:46 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on March 01, 2016, 07:54:08 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 01, 2016, 06:50:53 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on March 01, 2016, 06:22:55 am

Batteroo taking money from the US Government is the single, dumbest thing they could ever do. It opens them and SK Telecom (the deep pocket) open to a fraud, waste, and abuse lawsuit.

SK probably not. Batteroo maybe. A lot of companies over promise going into phase 1, phase 1 is high risk funding often for high risk tech. Companies in phase 1 often find they have technical problems and cant reach what they are trying to do (if they do that too many time or too hard, individuals can be blacklisted from the awards).  Totally depends on what they put into their application and how they execute, if they get the award at all. I can tell you there is a scary oversight guy with the sole purpose of finding fraud and abuse... and he enjoys it.

I think one could make a very strong argument that SK is a witting business partner, particularly in light of them sharing a corporate address.

So far, nothing suggests SK is involved in anything, other than a possibly bad investment choice... sharing an address is normal for an accelerator.  SK decided to invest in Batteroo, probably doing so with a promissory note. Batteroo likely used those funds from that note to lease space/equipment from SK, but are considered separate entities. It may have been part of the deal (both because investors often want people close, and because SK might have thought the resources improves Batteroos chance of success), but not because they form some-sort of legal coop or whatever. If anything, if for some reason Batteroo was found to be fraudulent, SK would likely be able to go after Batteroo. I think SK would be viewed as victims unless something really screwed-up was going on between the two (and haven't seen anything to suggest that).

SK does have a seat on the board of directors, which implies some culpability.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on March 01, 2016, 09:28:33 pm

Meanwhile, a little unrest is detected in the IGG comments:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=205275;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=205277;image)

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 01, 2016, 10:32:34 pm

Quote from: photon on March 01, 2016, 09:23:29 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 01, 2016, 08:30:46 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on March 01, 2016, 07:54:08 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 01, 2016, 06:50:53 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on March 01, 2016, 06:22:55 am

Batteroo taking money from the US Government is the single, dumbest thing they could ever do. It opens them and SK Telecom (the deep pocket) open to a fraud, waste, and abuse lawsuit.

SK probably not. Batteroo maybe. A lot of companies over promise going into phase 1, phase 1 is high risk funding often for high risk tech. Companies in phase 1 often find they have technical problems and cant reach what they are trying to do (if they do that too many time or too hard, individuals can be blacklisted from the awards).  Totally depends on what they put into their application and how they execute, if they get the award at all. I can tell you there is a scary oversight guy with the sole purpose of finding fraud and abuse... and he enjoys it.

I think one could make a very strong argument that SK is a witting business partner, particularly in light of them sharing a corporate address.

So far, nothing suggests SK is involved in anything, other than a possibly bad investment choice... sharing an address is normal for an accelerator.  SK decided to invest in Batteroo, probably doing so with a promissory note. Batteroo likely used those funds from that note to lease space/equipment from SK, but are considered separate entities. It may have been part of the deal (both because investors often want people close, and because SK might have thought the resources improves Batteroos chance of success), but not because they form some-sort of legal coop or whatever. If anything, if for some reason Batteroo was found to be fraudulent, SK would likely be able to go after Batteroo. I think SK would be viewed as victims unless something really screwed-up was going on between the two (and haven't seen anything to suggest that).

SK does have a seat on the board of directors, which implies some culpability.

There are several types of directors. One 'class' is a dependent board member, those that have interests outside of the company. So the SK board member is likely a dependent board member. Things are usually put in place to limit liability with dependent board members.
 
One of those things is that decision making power is usually removed or limited, for dependent board members. They can provide guidance, and they can function as a reporting/communications member between the board and investors (board members are required to be present at board meetings and investors want to know what is really going on). Because the decision make power is limited, liabilities are limited. There are other things often put in place too.

They also almost certainly have an indemnification agreement in place, so if a liability does pop-up, it’s on Batteroos side.

And if that fails, the board member almost certainly has directors liability insurance.

And if something did happen and got past all of that, it’s more likely the director would be personally liable, rather than SK.

I think SK is probably pretty insulated, but not a lawyer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 01, 2016, 10:46:09 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on March 01, 2016, 07:54:08 pm

I think one could make a very strong argument that SK is a witting business partner, particularly in light of them sharing a corporate address.

Nope, that's just common in these VC things to provide office/lab space etc as part of the deal.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on March 02, 2016, 02:29:43 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 01, 2016, 10:46:09 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on March 01, 2016, 07:54:08 pm

I think one could make a very strong argument that SK is a witting business partner, particularly in light of them sharing a corporate address.

Nope, that's just common in these VC things to provide office/lab space etc as part of the deal.

Maybe so. My experience is that when these suits are filed, everyone including the family dog and the goldfish gets named as a plaintiff. Then it's a year or more of Stupid Lawyer Tricks(tm) to whittle that list down to who will actually go to trial. Whether or not one is judged at fault, avoiding a treble damages Qui Tam claim by just not taking government funding on something so demonstrably ridiculous would be an advisable path.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 02, 2016, 02:35:45 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on March 02, 2016, 02:29:43 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 01, 2016, 10:46:09 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on March 01, 2016, 07:54:08 pm

I think one could make a very strong argument that SK is a witting business partner, particularly in light of them sharing a corporate address.

Nope, that's just common in these VC things to provide office/lab space etc as part of the deal.

Maybe so. My experience is that when these suits are filed, everyone including the family dog and the goldfish gets named as a plaintiff. Then it's a year or more of Stupid Lawyer Tricks(tm) to whittle that list down to who will actually go to trial. Whether or not one is judged at fault, avoiding a treble damages Qui Tam claim by just not taking government funding on something so demonstrably ridiculous would be an advisable path.

What suit?
Who going to sue them?
They'll either ship, or they'll go bust and everyone will just shrug their shoulders and walk away.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on March 02, 2016, 03:19:06 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 02, 2016, 02:35:45 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on March 02, 2016, 02:29:43 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 01, 2016, 10:46:09 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on March 01, 2016, 07:54:08 pm

I think one could make a very strong argument that SK is a witting business partner, particularly in light of them sharing a corporate address.

Nope, that's just common in these VC things to provide office/lab space etc as part of the deal.

Maybe so. My experience is that when these suits are filed, everyone including the family dog and the goldfish gets named as a plaintiff. Then it's a year or more of Stupid Lawyer Tricks(tm) to whittle that list down to who will actually go to trial. Whether or not one is judged at fault, avoiding a treble damages Qui Tam claim by just not taking government funding on something so demonstrably ridiculous would be an advisable path.

What suit?
Who going to sue them?
They'll either ship, or they'll go bust and everyone will just shrug their shoulders and walk away.

The IGG campaign is nothing. 

If Batteroo takes money from the US Government like they have repeatedly said they wish to, someone could file a Qui Tam (fraud, waste, and abuse) lawsuit.  The SBIR is one thing they've spoken about lately.  The other issue is them trying to hock their wares to the Department of Defense as they have mentioned previously.  Qui Tam suits pay handsomely:  30% of treble damages. Once filed, the US Government has the option to take over the suit.  If that happens, the reward to the plaintiff goes down, but you have the whole weight of the US DOJ going for a conviction.

Basically, if Batteroo takes U.S. government money, they are morons.  There will almost certainly be an underpaid insider who will realize that they can retire off a Qui Tam lawsuit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on March 02, 2016, 03:36:31 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on March 01, 2016, 09:28:33 pm

Meanwhile, a little unrest is detected in the IGG comments:

People are asking for pictures of the product but may be Bob could start from posting a picture of the plant in China which "is making" his batterisers.
 :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on March 02, 2016, 04:14:08 am

Hi group,
[Brit mode]
We should follow the advice posted today on the IGG campaign by Chen Yun Ping:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=205345;image)

We should not be disturbing Dr. Bob, Dr. Bob is very busy right now. See Dr. Bob's reply to Chen Yun Ping's earlier comment.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=205347;image)



Posting a few photographs of the parts being made, would stop all this. I can only think of one reason they are not posting photographs. You would think that they would be proud of the progress they are making. After all this is the first device that breaks the 'Maximum Power Theorem'. They are lucky it is a theorem, and not a law.

[Brit mode\]

Brit mode: to get the maximum benefit from this post, read it to yourself with a British accent. If that fails, try reading it aloud with a British accent.


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on March 02, 2016, 04:57:01 am

Quote from: Bud on March 02, 2016, 03:36:31 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on March 01, 2016, 09:28:33 pm

Meanwhile, a little unrest is detected in the IGG comments:

People are asking for pictures of the product but may be Bob could start from posting a picture of the plant in China which "is making" his batterisers.
 :)

I'll bet you lunch Bob had to find a new CM and maybe even a new boost IC after the initial production volumes came in about 5-10% of what was expected.  And this whole China thing is pretty much a goat rope at this point.  Once one factors in all the extra costs, it would be just as well to run the production in Guadalajara or Juarez, MX, or even stateside.  Smart manufacturers get the bugs worked out, THEN ship the line across the pond if the volume is there.  Flextronics has US operations for a reason.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on March 02, 2016, 08:08:48 am

When posts like these keep coming in, I think it the time comes that they unleash Ali.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=205387;image)


It's now 2 weeks ago that Bob said: "Sure we can show pictures". But we haven't seen anything yet.
So posting pictures within 2 weeks is to hard for them, but they can predict shipment of products from the far east within a month? I don't think so...

My advise to Bob is: Admit that the skeptics were right, and end this mayhem. If the snail climbs up 4 meters at daytime, and slides back 5 meters at night-time, it's never come out the well, just ask your brother.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on March 02, 2016, 08:33:18 am

The other thing I noticed (to add to the forever growing list of inconsistencies, lies, etc...) is this seemingly stock photo provided by Batteriser:
Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that the Batteriser wasn't going to be suitable for very low-drain applications (like remotes)? Or did I just imagine it based on common sense?

(Also, if anyone wants to see a truely remarkable invention (that actually exists), see Butteriser ButterUp (http://www.butterup.com.au/) -- I have two of them!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on March 02, 2016, 08:36:45 am

Quote from: Halcyon on March 02, 2016, 08:33:18 am

The other thing I noticed (to add to the forever growing list of inconsistencies, lies, etc...) is this seemingly stock photo provided by Batteriser:
Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that the Batteriser wasn't going to be suitable for very low-drain applications (like remotes)? Or did I just imagine it based on common sense?

They only decided that after it was pointed out by the forum... Like most of their updates and changes actually...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on March 02, 2016, 01:29:36 pm

 If they haven't gotten anything out of their factory as pre-production samples by this point, there's no way they will make an march 31 ship date. The only 'shocking' thing that could come out of this group would be if they actually DSO ship a product.

 The previous reminds me, my mouse finally died (go back a whole bunch of pages - my laptop mouse was one thing I had handy to use as a test when my new/old Fluke 45 meter was delivered, so I checked the battery voltage. Already down to 1.1 something no load (other than the multimeter input impedance) and it was going strong. That was several weeks ago. Yesterday it stopped working until I replaced the batteries, time to see how low it got. I use this as an example because this is pretty much a Wun Hung Lo brand mouse, and if even THAT can have a boost converter already built in - what purpose would there be for a Batteriser?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on March 05, 2016, 12:53:45 pm

Hi,

Here is a snapshot of the latest comments on IGG:


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=206164;image)


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 05, 2016, 01:05:18 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on March 02, 2016, 08:33:18 am

The other thing I noticed (to add to the forever growing list of inconsistencies, lies, etc...) is this seemingly stock photo provided by Batteriser:
Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that the Batteriser wasn't going to be suitable for very low-drain applications (like remotes)? Or did I just imagine it based on common sense?

Yep, they say so here:
http://batteriser.com/batteriser-technical-qa/ (http://batteriser.com/batteriser-technical-qa/)

Quote

Question 6: In low-drain devices like (I assume) a TV remote, the actual shelf life of the battery will be over before the Batteriser delivers noticeable gains. For example, this comment on Macworld: “Since most batteries (excluding some lithium types) have shelf lives of say 5 years or less, then taking a low drain application scenario where the batteries will naturally last two years or more (i.e. a remote…), then boosting the battery life by the claimed 8X would mean your 5 years shelf-life battery would be “good-to-go” for up to 40 years! Doesn’t take an engineer to tell you “it ain’t gonna happen!!”

Answer: Batteriser does work with voltage and current, regardless of the chemistry. We have seen improvement even with lithium battery. For those folks that change a battery every 5 years, we recommend not to utilize Batteriser technology. However if you are like most of us living in an average household having 25 battery operated devices and having to continuously change batteries, Batteriser would certainly be a good choice to extend the time between battery changes by 8x depending on the end device.”

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 05, 2016, 01:21:06 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on March 02, 2016, 08:36:45 am

They only decided that after it was pointed out by the forum... Like most of their updates and changes actually...

Yes. Lots of changes have been made a day or two after they were bought up on the forum. At least half a dozen IIRC. They obviously read the forum and change as a result.
Major fundamental stuff like cutoff voltage claims, FCC, current, the battery study paper they cite etc.
Free R&D, you're welcome Batteriser  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 05, 2016, 01:41:21 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on March 05, 2016, 01:21:06 pm

Free R&D, you're welcome Batteriser  ;D

Not Free R&D .... but something far more valuable: Free market feedback.  They've been told the issues that have been identified - and they will then know what to address.

By 'address' I don't necessarily mean 'fix' - although that would be the hope.  A problem can be 'addressed' by making it less unpalatable - that is, changing the perception.

We are familiar with these sorts of games from the ranks of politicians.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on March 05, 2016, 02:06:03 pm

Dave, you should send them a bill for your consultation, at least the time and resources you spent on giving the feedback.

I would assume $1800 per hour is a reasonable rate, and around a half hour per day since the first beginning of this thread, plus the time ( probably around 30 hours) per video for the professional presentations on product feedback. Payable in Australian dollars, and does not include any out of packet expenses ( Probes is expensive, you probably should charge for the delivery time as well) incurred during producing this ongoing consultation.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on March 07, 2016, 08:38:52 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on March 05, 2016, 01:21:06 pm

Free R&D, you're welcome Batteriser  ;D

You should charge for this...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on March 07, 2016, 11:18:39 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on March 07, 2016, 08:38:52 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on March 05, 2016, 01:21:06 pm

Free R&D, you're welcome Batteriser  ;D

You should charge for this...

I'll take 1000 shares in Batteroo for my contribution ;-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on March 07, 2016, 11:20:06 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on March 07, 2016, 11:18:39 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on March 07, 2016, 08:38:52 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on March 05, 2016, 01:21:06 pm

Free R&D, you're welcome Batteriser  ;D

You should charge for this...

I'll take 1000 shares in Batteroo for my contribution ;-)

Which you will never be able to sell..., lose a lot of money, or blamed that your partially responsible. Doesn't seem like a good idea.  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on March 07, 2016, 11:48:16 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on March 07, 2016, 11:20:06 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on March 07, 2016, 11:18:39 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on March 07, 2016, 08:38:52 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on March 05, 2016, 01:21:06 pm

Free R&D, you're welcome Batteriser  ;D

You should charge for this...

I'll take 1000 shares in Batteroo for my contribution ;-)

Which you will never be able to sell..., lose a lot of money, or blamed that your partially responsible. Doesn't seem like a good idea.  :-DD

Oh I'd never pay money for them. A share price of $0.00 seems fair for Batteroo shares.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on March 07, 2016, 11:50:50 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on March 07, 2016, 11:48:16 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on March 07, 2016, 11:20:06 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on March 07, 2016, 11:18:39 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on March 07, 2016, 08:38:52 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on March 05, 2016, 01:21:06 pm

Free R&D, you're welcome Batteriser  ;D

You should charge for this...

I'll take 1000 shares in Batteroo for my contribution ;-)

Which you will never be able to sell..., lose a lot of money, or blamed that your partially responsible. Doesn't seem like a good idea.  :-DD

Oh I'd never pay money for them. A share price of $0.00 seems fair for Batteroo shares.

Maybe you can make 800% more profit! [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on March 08, 2016, 12:51:57 am

Quote from: ccs46 on March 07, 2016, 11:50:50 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on March 07, 2016, 11:48:16 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on March 07, 2016, 11:20:06 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on March 07, 2016, 11:18:39 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on March 07, 2016, 08:38:52 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on March 05, 2016, 01:21:06 pm

Free R&D, you're welcome Batteriser  ;D

You should charge for this...

I'll take 1000 shares in Batteroo for my contribution ;-)

Which you will never be able to sell..., lose a lot of money, or blamed that your partially responsible. Doesn't seem like a good idea.  :-DD

Oh I'd never pay money for them. A share price of $0.00 seems fair for Batteroo shares.

Maybe you can make 800% more profit! [emoji23]

 :clap:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 08, 2016, 11:14:55 pm

"You will certainly be receiving your product this time"
Bob promised photos too, didn't happen, they must be real busy.
Good to see he has plenty of time to personally respond to backers though.

(http://i.imgur.com/DSmVel7.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rx8pilot on March 08, 2016, 11:19:39 pm

sounds like it is close now. Is it time for me to hold my breath?

Can't wait! Nearly all of my monkeys have dead batteries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 09, 2016, 02:46:57 am

Quote from: rx8pilot on March 08, 2016, 11:19:39 pm

sounds like it is close now. Is it time for me to hold my breath?

A brave and noble thought....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on March 09, 2016, 02:57:53 am

Quote from: rx8pilot on March 08, 2016, 11:19:39 pm

...Can't wait! Nearly all of my monkeys have dead batteries....

QUOTE OF THE DAY!!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on March 09, 2016, 09:02:05 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 08, 2016, 11:14:55 pm

Good to see he has plenty of time to personally respond to backers though.

yea, from his phone, while sat on a sun lounger drinking cocktails!  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on March 09, 2016, 01:00:55 pm

Someone hid a camera on the last Batteroo board meeting, and this is what happened:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on March 09, 2016, 07:37:06 pm

Clearly Bros. Roohparvar need assistance. Could someone who speaks mandarin or what Chinese dialect prevails in Shenzen post the translation "email us pictures of the batteriser in production, please"?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on March 09, 2016, 07:59:10 pm

Hi,

Please be gentle. In Dr. Bob's universe, where our laws of physics do not apply, the speed of shight [sic] is faster than the speed of light. It takes a long time for the light to reach the camera.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rx8pilot on March 09, 2016, 08:08:14 pm

That explains everything......

His camera was taking photos of the future! Duh!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on March 09, 2016, 08:26:34 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on March 09, 2016, 07:59:10 pm

Hi,

Please be gentle. In Dr. Bob's universe, where our laws of physics do not apply, the speed of shight [sic] is faster than the speed of light. It takes a long time for the light to reach the camera.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Once we get done with thermodynamics, we'll take Bros. Roohparvar to school on special relativity where the speed of shight is always less than light.  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on March 10, 2016, 02:07:01 am

I'm getting an idea...

Dave - make a protective jacket for your recent DMM - with probe storage (well, you know where).

Labelled "The Meteriser", It doesn't need to be accurate - just have an occasional reference to Boob & Probes The Monkey.  Model number perhaps #751

If it randomly changes mode, or squawks rude noises, emits magic smoke...  all the better.      Get it made in China at Butteriser's CM factory - just to rub salt into the wound.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on March 10, 2016, 03:39:20 am

 

Quote from: SL4P on March 10, 2016, 02:07:01 am

I'm getting an idea...

Dave - make a protective jacket for your recent DMM - with probe storage (well, you know where).

Labelled "The Meteriser", It doesn't need to be accurate - just have an occasional reference to Boob & Probes The Monkey.  Model number perhaps #751

If it randomly changes mode, or squawks rude noises, emits magic smoke...  all the better.      Get it made in China at Butteriser's CM factory - just to rub salt into the wound.

And don't forget up to 800% accuracy.  :-DMM

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on March 10, 2016, 03:53:18 am

... or as a genuine Butteriser product, we can confuse the maths...
1/800% accuracy.  Not very.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on March 10, 2016, 07:57:25 am

So... If an infinite number of monkeys started an infinite amount of startup ventures, would one of them inevitably eventually deliver a working batteriser product?  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 10, 2016, 08:08:53 am

That's actually a pretty good way to differentiate between a technological problem and a fundamental one.

I might just borrow and use that idea if you don't mind...  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on March 10, 2016, 08:51:30 am

Quote from: dexters_lab on March 09, 2016, 09:02:05 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 08, 2016, 11:14:55 pm

Good to see he has plenty of time to personally respond to backers though.

yea, from his phone, while sat on a sun lounger drinking cocktails!  :-DD

I think you mean scared out of his ass that hes still gonna get sued for everything he and his brother owns by Energizer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on March 10, 2016, 02:20:48 pm

Batteriser appears to be ignoring refund requests. Wonder how long that comment lasts.

Side note: Would anyone be shocked if Batteriser post an update saying April? (i.e. "expected shipping date = current month + 1 month")

And if you think about, the shipping date on the pre-order page on their website refreshingly honest: the shipping is ALWAYS 30 days away!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=207480;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=207502;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on March 10, 2016, 02:41:15 pm

1st March 2016 - SKTA has a new Advisory Board (Will they do better than the last one?):

Ben Yu – Sierra Ventures
Bruce Graham – Angel Investor
Don Faria – Intel Capital
Gary Hocking – NetApp, Inc.
Gary Smerdon – LSI Corporation
Lip-Bu Tan – Walden International & Cadence Design Systems
Markus Fromherz – Angel Investor and Co-Founder of Sand Hill Angels
Michael Harries – Citrix Accelerator
Peter Bell – Highland Capital Partners
Peter Moran – DCM Ventures
Rory Moore – EvoNexus

SKTA Innopartners announces Etopus Technology Inc. and Pavilion Data Systems, Inc. successfully raised their Series A funding rounds.
(It looks like two of their supported start-ups got extra funding. No news about Batteroo yet)

...and a new batch of resident entrepreneurs:


SKTA Announces Its New Class of Entrepreneurs in Residence
 

February 25, 2016 01:30 PM Eastern Standard Time


SUNNYVALE, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--SKTA Innopartners announces its Entrepreneurs in Residence (EIRs) Program. EIRs are selected from a highly competitive pool of serial entrepreneurs and senior executives that bring a diverse set of technical and business skills with a passion for startups. EIRs work alongside the Innopartners staff coaching and mentoring portfolio companies, sourcing new companies for the accelerator, conducting technical and financial diligence on new investments and expanding the contact network with other investors.


SKTA Innopartners proudly announces its Entrepreneurs in Residence (EIRs) program.
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Bob Stone has a distinguished track record with over 25 years of leadership in technology, energy and telecom. Bob worked at Google for the past two years as a senior advisor to the Office of the President. Before Google, Bob was part of the executive team that executed on the turn around and sale of Wavecom Technologies to Hawaiian Telecom.

Darci Arnold is a global, high-tech Silicon Valley business consultant known for her leadership in business development and strategic planning. She has worked with startups focused on machine learning algorithms, the IoT and Big Data storage applications. Darci was the first Vice President of Global Marketing at Seagate Technology, Senior Director of Worldwide OEM Sales and Marketing at Komag, Inc. and held various engineering positions in the data storage industry. In addition, she’s taught at the university level and continues to lecture globally on technology and corporate sustainability related issues.

Jai Kumar has over 15 years of experience in founding and building pioneering mobile companies. He also took on senior technology and management roles at Intel and Motorola. His expertise encompasses IoT, mobile, smart-phone hardware and software mobile accessories, web technologies, and enterprise software. Jai has 10 patents in the fields of mobile devices, wireless, radio, TV, and internet security. He is the program chair of the SVForum VC Breakfast Series and CEO of his stealth mode mobile startup.

Jeff Wallace is the founder and president of Global Kinetics Inc., a Bay Area corporate advisor and market development accelerator for early-to-mid stage clients seeking to establish or expand operations within the U.S. marketplace. He is also a founding investor of The Batchery, a Bay Area global incubator for seed stage startups.

Margie Evashenk is an engineering leader with more than 25 years of proficiency in enterprise storage and networking industries. She is also a member of the Board of Directors for Open-Silicon. Margie has a great deal of industry experience, most recently as Senior Vice President and Chief Development Executive at Emulex Corporation, where she oversaw Emulex’s engineering functions globally. Prior to Emulex, she worked in engineering and management at HP and Agilent Technologies. Margie started her career in ASIC supply chain management before becoming an ASIC design engineer, eventually expanding to lead R&D for Agilent’s Fibre Channel controllers.

Mary Vincent is co-founder of a health technology startup. She was the keynote speaker at the 2015 ITRI SIPO Semiconductor Taiwan Conference themed”IoT Wearable Health Technology Impacts on Smart Cities, Homes, Data and Security”. She was also the co-founder and head of product engineering for a smart fabric wearable computing company that was accepted into the Intel’s “Make It Wearable” semifinals. Her background includes work in Sun Microsystems Java Engineering, Data Center Energy Efficiency, and Mobile Health Application development with Stanford and government projects in Bhutan and Guatemala.

Dr. Paul Voois is an entrepreneur and early stage investor with a track record of building companies with unique, defensible technology in the networking, communications and software industries. In 2002 he co-founded ClariPhy Communications, a venture-backed company that has grown into one of the leading suppliers of semiconductors powering ultra-high speed optical transmission over the Internet’s core infrastructure. Dr. Voois served as ClariPhy’s CEO until 2011 and serves as its Chief Strategy Officer.

Ray Taylor is a wireless industry veteran with 25 years of experience as an engineer, business operator and entrepreneur. Ray served as President of the North American division of Lumata, a London based, private equity-backed mobile marketing company spun off from Buongiorno SpA, a DOCOMO company. At Buongiorno, Ray was responsible for consolidating the product portfolio, new product development, delivering revenue and introducing new and innovative services to Sprint, Virgin Mobile and Verizon. Prior to Buongiorno, he served as President and CEO of Mobopia Corporation and was an Executive in Residence at Storm Ventures.

Rob Reagan is an investor and advisor to several early stage companies providing unique and compelling technologies, systems or services to the emerging dense network infrastructure and intelligent connected device ecosystem. He is also an advisor to General Electric Ventures & SK Telecom Americas in addition to other investors, operators and OEMs. Rob has a background in Leveraged Buyouts, Startup Management, Incubation/Acceleration and Early Stage Venture Capital Fund Management. His key areas of interest include: Industrial IoT Applications, Video/Audio Analytics, Shared Infrastructure, Unique Sensor Technologies and Communications Infrastructure.

Shashi Kumar works with early stage startups as a growth accelerator focused on process, programs, partnerships and raising investments. He has three startup exits and two investment successes. His core expertise is in industrial automation, simulation, logistics, storage, networking and semiconductor design services. Shashi has implemented multiple end to end application solutions for many sector enterprises worldwide. He is also a diversity evangelist and has served on the board of Western Regional Minority Council.

Tony Loaiza is a senior sales executive and entrepreneur with over 18 years of professional experience driving revenue, maximizing profitability and building markets in both highly-competitive and startup environments. After serving in the U.S. Army, he achieved two law degrees and worked as a Mergers & Acquisitions attorney for U.S. companies in Russia. Tony transitioned into hi-tech enterprise sales and business development to achieve cross-technology experience with IoT, VoIP, SaaS, CRM, database, network, middleware, and PaaS solutions. Tony has held direct and executive management positions in industry leading companies such as AT&T, Oracle, Covad, and two companies he successfully founded.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on March 10, 2016, 06:19:59 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on March 10, 2016, 02:41:15 pm

1st March 2016 - SKTA has a new Advisory Board (Will they do better than the last one?):

Ben Yu – Sierra Ventures
Bruce Graham – Angel Investor
Don Faria – Intel Capital
Gary Hocking – NetApp, Inc.
Gary Smerdon – LSI Corporation
Lip-Bu Tan – Walden International & Cadence Design Systems
Markus Fromherz – Angel Investor and Co-Founder of Sand Hill Angels
Michael Harries – Citrix Accelerator
Peter Bell – Highland Capital Partners
Peter Moran – DCM Ventures
Rory Moore – EvoNexus

I think SKTA has learned a painful lesson and has added people who will prevent them from making that mistake again.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on March 10, 2016, 06:58:56 pm

Quote from: quad on March 10, 2016, 02:20:48 pm

Batteriser appears to be ignoring refund requests. Wonder how long that comment lasts.

ROFL @ "Battery Condom".

Actually that's not such a bad idea, someone could market them for Batteriser users to prevent their leaking batteries from destroying their devices. You could call it the BETTERiser -- A condom for your Batteriser, guaranteed to catch 800% more leaks!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on March 11, 2016, 03:47:43 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on March 10, 2016, 06:58:56 pm

Quote from: quad on March 10, 2016, 02:20:48 pm

Batteriser appears to be ignoring refund requests. Wonder how long that comment lasts.

ROFL @ "Battery Condom".

Actually that's not such a bad idea, someone could market them for Batteriser users to prevent their leaking batteries from destroying their devices. You could call it the BETTERiser -- A condom for your Batteriser, guaranteed to catch 800% more leaks!

Already exist:

(https://t3chch3ck.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/dsc03407.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: l0rd_hex on March 11, 2016, 06:43:35 pm

Ohh, is that the cherry flavored model?  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on March 11, 2016, 09:28:47 pm

As predicted, Batteriser deleted the comment about them ignoring refund requests.

They'll only anger people if they post another update without pictures. My guess is they post low-res pictures of a generic factory in China, some generic machinery, maybe a photo of some factory workers.

Maybe add some cock and bull story about how they did a run and it wasn't up to spec (only the best for Batteriser customers!  ;)), and they're now waiting for machine time so they can do another production run...... hence why they only have photos of the factory and not the products

And that way anyone asks for pictures they can respond "See the update" and "We posted them!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 11, 2016, 11:31:54 pm

Quote from: quad on March 11, 2016, 09:28:47 pm

Maybe add some cock and bull story about how they did a run and it wasn't up to spec (only the best for Batteriser customers!  ;)), and they're now waiting for machine time so they can do another production run...... hence why they only have photos of the factory and not the products

Things are conveniently inline for something like that to happen. Failure to ship will likely be "on" the contract manufacture and not Batteroo, as the shipping date responsibilities were transferred to the CM in last months update:

"....While facing the challenge of working during the Chinese New Year holiday season, two of our executive team members have been in China and Taiwan working very closely with our contract manufacturer these past few weeks. As a result of this productive collaboration and our team’s diligence, our Contract Manufacturer has confirmed their commitment to ship Batterisers this coming March....
Best Wishes,
Bob Roohparvar
CEO | Batteroo, Inc."

Quote from: quad on March 11, 2016, 09:28:47 pm

As predicted, Batteriser deleted the comment about them ignoring refund requests.

Yep the comments about refund requests being ignored appear to be gone.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on March 12, 2016, 02:12:35 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 11, 2016, 11:31:54 pm

"....While facing the challenge of working during the Chinese New Year holiday season, two of our executive team members have been in China and Taiwan working very closely with our contract manufacturer these past few weeks. As a result of this productive collaboration and our team’s diligence,...

Poor Bob, this suggests he's never been anywhere near China during Lunar New Year.  The chance of being very busy is nil, Nada, Zip.

Anyone that can get anything done - is out of town for at least a week, more like ten days - as the only annual holiday celebrated by everyone.  Even your poolside hotel service would be suffering!  Think 'Thanksgiving' in the US.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on March 12, 2016, 02:47:59 am

Well, it sure explains why they couldn't take any pictures at the factory... Other than the padlock on the doors, I suppose  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on March 12, 2016, 02:18:10 pm

Quote from: SL4P on March 12, 2016, 02:12:35 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 11, 2016, 11:31:54 pm

"....While facing the challenge of working during the Chinese New Year holiday season, two of our executive team members have been in China and Taiwan working very closely with our contract manufacturer these past few weeks. As a result of this productive collaboration and our team’s diligence,...

Poor Bob, this suggests he's never been anywhere near China during Lunar New Year.  The chance of being very busy is nil, Nada, Zip.

That's not what he wrote. He is using politician or manager speak. He didn't wrote that they worked during Chinese New Year holiday and how long "a few weeks" are. But let me translate what he really means :)

"facing the challenge of working during the Chinese New Year holiday season":
It was god damn impossible to work during the Chinese New Year holiday season.

"two of our executive team members have been in China and Taiwan working very closely with our contract manufacturer these past few weeks":
But my two brothers had a good time for the last two months in China and Taiwan, enjoying country, people and culture.

"As a result of this productive collaboration and our team’s diligence, our Contract Manufacturer has confirmed their commitment to ship Batterisers this coming March.":
On the last day of our holiday we met a guy in a shed who promised he will deliver anything for cheap until end of 2017.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: gore on March 16, 2016, 01:17:18 pm

It's been a while. They haven't wrapped up this scam yet!? No updates of substance, but plenty of insulting FB spam updates dished out regularly by their Batteriser monkeys. Getting a shot at testing them seems like hell of a stretch at this point. They aren't producing anything, are they? It's difficult to think of a plausible explanation to state otherwise. You would think with an ongoing production you would be happy to show it to people, especially the backers. What's their endgame? To collect as much money as possible and disappear?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AF6LJ on March 16, 2016, 03:09:27 pm

/Sue wishing this thing would just die... :palm: :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 16, 2016, 03:13:41 pm

I'm wishing they actually ship the thing - then it can stand on its merits....

... but I think you'll get your wish before I get mine.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on March 16, 2016, 05:17:18 pm

It appears management is leaving Batteroo. They must have shipped.
http://xitore.com/management-team/ (http://xitore.com/management-team/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on March 16, 2016, 05:35:36 pm

Or the money is all gone

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on March 16, 2016, 05:51:50 pm

Xitore is another stealth company with a vaporware wonder product, allegedly outperforming current technologies in the storage field, by an order of magnitude. Needless to say, they are currently looking for some serious funding. Any takers?
Perhaps just a coincidence, but it looks like another bunch of friends with a Middle East connection: Roohparvar, Alemzadeh, Hashemi, Amidi, Vakilian, etc...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on March 16, 2016, 06:35:56 pm

Surprising that he does not mention his experience at Batteroo in his resume.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 16, 2016, 06:40:41 pm

I wouldn't!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on March 16, 2016, 07:12:22 pm

To be fair he still has Batteroo on his linkedin profile

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on March 16, 2016, 07:17:37 pm

But he is a very busy person it seems:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/08/19/superdense_flasher_skyera_changes_ceo/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/08/19/superdense_flasher_skyera_changes_ceo/)

and a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V6IKoFhBtQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V6IKoFhBtQ)

I'm afraid to look further on where else he was involved.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on March 16, 2016, 07:42:49 pm

Quote from: photon on March 16, 2016, 05:17:18 pm

It appears management is leaving Batteroo. They must have shipped.
http://xitore.com/management-team/ (http://xitore.com/management-team/)

The battery management was never there !

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on March 17, 2016, 03:21:59 am

The xitore web site's copyright notice is 2014 and their press announcing Bob's joining was Feb 2015. All predates Batteroo-gate so not really any withholding of information for a change.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: photon on March 17, 2016, 04:30:24 am

Quote from: rich on March 17, 2016, 03:21:59 am

The xitore web site's copyright notice is 2014 and their press announcing Bob's joining was Feb 2015. All predates Batteroo-gate so not really any withholding of information for a change.

There is a typo in the web page since his LinkedIn account shows Feb 2016. Here is the top of his page:

Chief Strategy Officer
Xitore, Inc.
February 2016 – Present (2 months)
Executive Board Member
Xitore, Inc.
February 2016 – Present (2 months)
Executive Chairman of the Board of Directors
Batteroo Corporation
July 2012 – Present (3 years 9 months)San Francisco Bay Area

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on March 17, 2016, 10:07:15 am

To me, Roohparvar just looks like a shonk. There is something about that smirk that says "I'm full of shit". I just can't put my finger on it. It's like one side of his facial muscles say "I'm cheerful" and the other half says "I'm going to take all your money and piss it up the wall".

(http://xitore.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Frankie_Roohparvar2.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 17, 2016, 10:28:03 am

Just a few more days...
(http://i.imgur.com/d4qGh3y.png)

My guess is there will be still be no mention of the trademark dispute, no actual date, and no photos they have promised. Just grade-A waffle.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: station240 on March 17, 2016, 10:40:51 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on March 16, 2016, 05:51:50 pm

Xitore is another stealth company with a vaporware wonder product, allegedly outperforming current technologies in the storage field, by an order of magnitude. Needless to say, they are currently looking for some serious funding. Any takers?

Maybe they could borrow against this bridge I own, only ever used by an old lady to go to the shops.
I'm thinking they misspelt the company name, it should have been Xitort.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr.diesel on March 17, 2016, 10:54:07 am

Quote from: Halcyon on March 17, 2016, 10:07:15 am

(http://xitore.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Frankie_Roohparvar2.jpg)

Yup, you can never trust a guy in a suit, the ultimate facade.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on March 17, 2016, 11:25:43 am

Reminds me of this guy :-) Steve Vizard days ! Forgot his trademark lines ...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on March 17, 2016, 11:55:25 am

Quote from: dr.diesel on March 17, 2016, 10:54:07 am

Yup, you can never trust a guy in a suit, the ultimate facade.

I was going to add a condition, something like:

If he's wearing a suit and trying to sell you something ...

But now I think about it, you're right. I never met anybody in a full suit that didn't talk/act like a Ferengi.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 17, 2016, 12:06:36 pm

Quote from: digsys on March 17, 2016, 11:25:43 am

Reminds me of this guy :-) Steve Vizard days ! Forgot his trademark lines ...

I'm reminded of:
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/yw7yA9ylCHA/hqdefault.jpg)

For those who didn't watch Australian TV in the 80's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw7yA9ylCHA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw7yA9ylCHA)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on March 17, 2016, 12:44:40 pm

Quote from: EEVblog

   I'm reminded of:  "Dodgy Brothers"   

Ahhhh that's it ! I loved that show. But Roohparvar looks almost identical to Victor, the Russian from that show. Just played some of his clips from Fast Foward.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on March 17, 2016, 12:55:19 pm

Things are heating up in the IGG comments section:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=208946;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=208948;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=208950;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 17, 2016, 01:00:40 pm

Bob - the broken record:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=208950;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on March 17, 2016, 01:12:40 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=208952;image)

What does he mean by next update....that would imply a 'previous' update wouldn't it?  :-//

(and so far his "understanding" of our frustration has been shown by him deleting our posts...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on March 17, 2016, 03:39:20 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on March 17, 2016, 10:07:15 am

To me, Roohparvar just looks like a shonk. There is something about that smirk that says "I'm full of shit".

What is a "shonk"? Google translate can not help me. Is it something like a "slick" ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on March 17, 2016, 03:51:03 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on March 17, 2016, 03:39:20 pm

What is a "shonk"? Google translate can not help me. Is it something like a "slick" ?

Hmm, I'm not going to repeat that here: http://nl.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Shonk (http://nl.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Shonk)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on March 17, 2016, 10:22:19 pm

Got it  :-/O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 17, 2016, 10:30:54 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on March 17, 2016, 03:39:20 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on March 17, 2016, 10:07:15 am

To me, Roohparvar just looks like a shonk. There is something about that smirk that says "I'm full of shit".

What is a "shonk"? Google translate can not help me. Is it something like a "slick" ?

Shonky in Australia means

Quote

adjective
1.
dishonest, unreliable, or illegal, especially in a devious way.
"shonky political goings-on"
noun
1.
a person engaged in suspect business activities.
"we need to rid the building industry of these shonkies quickly"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on March 18, 2016, 07:43:03 am

This is going far worse than I expected it to go, at least I expected them to have some product by now. I now seriously doubt they've ever started production despite them having a self proclaimed CEO of a contract manufacturer on their team. It seems clear now that the landslip excuse some weeks ago was just a blatent lie as strongly suspected. Or has the Energizer intervention derailed them?

What's not clear is how this will pan out now. Clearly it's the VCs that are running the show considering their investment and presence on the board, but what those slippery characters are going to make public and what's really going on will be two completely different things. The longer this goes on, the more it'll just quietly go away, to nothing. Which is a shame, I was looking forward to seeing all those 800% use cases.

What it does show is that you can have an expensive team boasting hundreds of patents to their names, with apparently glowing resumes with allegedly tons of industry experience including a CEO of a contract electronics manufacturing company, but that doesn't mean they'll be capable of tying their own shoe laces or organising imbibement at a brewing facility.

The longer this goes on the more I doubt we'll ever see a Batteriser. While we might see the odd further "updates", the chances of them having anything other than wishy washy side stepping is unlikely. The longer they don't come clean, the more the speculation will florish, but they've probably spun so many yarns already that they're struggling to come up with a jackanory that holds water. I just didn't seeing it being this much of a failure.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 18, 2016, 07:53:28 am

Quote from: Howardlong on March 18, 2016, 07:43:03 am

The longer this goes on the more I doubt we'll ever see a Batteriser. While we might see the odd further "updates", the chances of them having anything other than wishy washy side stepping is unlikely. The longer they don't come clean, the more the speculation will florish, but they've probably spun so many yarns already that they're struggling to come up with a jackanory that holds water. I just didn't seeing it being this much of a failure.

I'm still of the opinion that what they really wanted and expected was a huge order from Walmart, Kmart etc (Hence former K-Mart CEO was on their board at one point until he left), but it seems more likely now that plan has all come-a-gutsa and they just don't know what to do. There is no money in fulfilling backer orders, hence their casual disregard all this time.

It's all gone wrong for them:
No big consumer order
No way they can make money from the campaign orders
Massive negative press they didn't expect, which has turned them into an industry joke.
The rejection of the patent, with barely any hope left to fight that.
The huge kick in the guts Energiser Trademark dispute they can't possibly win.

With all that it wouldn't surprise me at all if they (or the investors) throw in the towel. And that would suck, because we'd never get to try one  :(

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: chris_leyson on March 18, 2016, 08:04:11 am

Quote

And that would suck, because we'd never get to try one  :(

But at least it would be less batteries going into landfill.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on March 18, 2016, 08:30:04 am

Oh well, if worse comes to worst then surely we as a community could perhaps all chip in a few cents each (<5) and buy them out lock, stock and bunnies, we would first need a full inventory of all their elaborate gear and stock at hand though.

1. An unused scope with worn out instructions.
2. A Mastech multimeter, really need I say more.
3. A Garmin Golf GPS, probably lost in a bunker.
4, Some toy bunnies for the kids to chuck about.
5. Some other bits and bobs, we just want the bits.
6. Stock at hand.... :-BROKE

Total value including intellectual property = Sweet Fxxx All.

On second thoughts save your coins folks, at least one day they might amount to something substantial.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on March 18, 2016, 09:57:56 am

It's looking more and more like Fungus was right all along...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 18, 2016, 10:37:42 am

I think I am safe to say, this product is will never see the light of day.

It would appear that whatever the reasons behind the scenes, they will want interest to wane slowly over time, with nothing more than deleteable criticism and ignorable protests that might create a minor irritation - which will be forgotten the next day.

Picture a wilting flower that silently drops it's petals one by one until one day there is noting left but a dried out stalk that quietly turns to dust.

Individuals will never get satisfaction - but would a collective voice be any more productive?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on March 18, 2016, 11:42:57 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on March 18, 2016, 08:30:04 am

Oh well, if worse comes to worst then surely we as a community could perhaps all chip in a few cents each (<5) and buy them out lock, stock and bunnies

Lock, stock and monkeys...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on March 18, 2016, 12:52:01 pm

Quote from: Delta on March 18, 2016, 09:57:56 am

It's looking more and more like Fungus was right all along...

The signs were (are!) quite obvious:
a) Bogus claims
b) Nobody ever allowed to try one for themselves
c) Laughable videos and demos (very obvious lies)
d) The had $1 million in venture capital but they went after $30,000 on IndieGoGo. What for? $30,000 wouldn't even cover their lunch expenses for six months.

The only conclusion is that it's a scam. And they're thieves (I have no problem at all in calling them that - they're taking innocent people's money with the full knowledge they're never going to deliver).

They also give the impression of not being nice people, Ali in particular. Jokes about the dumpsters in Milpitas aside: Ali publicly made threats against people who tried to expose the scam (I'm guessing Ali isn't the brains of the duo).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on March 18, 2016, 01:59:26 pm

Quote from: Fungus on March 18, 2016, 12:52:01 pm

The only conclusion is that it's a scam. And they're thieves (I have no problem at all in calling them that - they're taking innocent people's money with the full knowledge they're never going to deliver).

Calling them thieves is putting it politely. They're much worse than that. Calling them scumbags is still not nearly enough to describe what these people are. I'll refrain from using the actual words I have in mind so Dave doesn't ban me from the forums.

What I wonder is how long these scumbags will go on with this. They should just terminate the IGG campain page and delete the FB page so everybody can go on with their lives and the journalists and bloggers who praised butteriser can stick it up theirs.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on March 18, 2016, 02:02:37 pm

Quote from: Howardlong on March 18, 2016, 07:43:03 am

...Clearly it's the VCs that are running the show considering their investment and presence on the board, but what those slippery characters are going to make public and what's really going on will be two completely different things. The longer this goes on, the more it'll just quietly go away, to nothing. Which is a shame, I was looking forward to seeing all those 800% use cases...

This is a major part of the problem with VCs and many other bulk project funding schemes.
These money pots are often used as legal money laundering / tax sinks to reduce the financial obligations of the top level investors. 
If the project works out and makes money - great.  Spin it off before it becomes 'wealthy in its own right' and invest in other projects... no tax liability.
If it loses money - also great.  investment offsets for tax reduction.
Keep doing this forever, providing >100% tax deductions for the 'risk takers'.
A nice, fair, capital system.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MLXXXp on March 18, 2016, 02:52:21 pm

Quote from: Fungus on March 18, 2016, 11:42:57 am

Lock, stock and monkeys...

Or, to be closer to the original figures of speech:
Lock, stock and barrel of monkeys  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on March 18, 2016, 03:10:35 pm

Quote from: Fungus on March 18, 2016, 12:52:01 pm

a) Bogus claims
b) Nobody ever allowed to try one for themselves
c) Laughable videos and demos (very obvious lies)
d) The had $1 million in venture capital

I wonder if uBeam is reading this?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on March 18, 2016, 04:00:36 pm

I guess it's not over till the fat lady sings, but what I find the most astonishing in this whole saga is the financial side. A slick presentation of a barely working device was enough to obtain some serious funding from a VC outfit, followed by some substantial backing through a crowdfunding project, with no strings attached. Are people fundamentally stupid or is the slightest promise of a financial reward strong enough to override their common sense?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on March 18, 2016, 04:32:49 pm

Quote from: Fungus on March 18, 2016, 12:52:01 pm

Quote from: Delta on March 18, 2016, 09:57:56 am

It's looking more and more like Fungus was right all along...

The signs were (are!) quite obvious:
a) Bogus claims
b) Nobody ever allowed to try one for themselves
c) Laughable videos and demos (very obvious lies)
d) The had $1 million in venture capital but they went after $30,000 on IndieGoGo. What for? $30,000 wouldn't even cover their lunch expenses for six months.

The only conclusion is that it's a scam. And they're thieves (I have no problem at all in calling them that - they're taking innocent people's money with the full knowledge they're never going to deliver).

They also give the impression of not being nice people, Ali in particular. Jokes about the dumpsters in Milpitas aside: Ali publicly made threats against people who tried to expose the scam (I'm guessing Ali isn't the brains of the duo).

I think that there are few other pieces to the puzzle.

1) The original Patent Application:

US 20120121943 A1 Structure and Method for Extending Battery Life

Was Filed by Fariborz Frankie Roohparvar in September 19, 2011.

This is a long time before the campaign started on IGG.

2) The later Patent application:

US 20150048785 A1 Filed November 3rd, 2014

Lists Bob and Frankie as the inventors. So some of the ownership has been transferred from Frankie to Bob.

We also have Bob's employment history:

March 2011 to September 5th 2012 Bob was President of DigitalOptics Corp.

November 2006 to December 2010 - Flextronics

2005 - 2006 Broadcom

I wonder if Frankie was helping his brother by giving a share of the Batteriser Patent?

As I have said before, Bob and Frankie's product is not the Batteriser, it the Batteriser company. They were hoping to create enough hype to be able to sell the company based on the hype.

Assume for a minute, that they have a product, if they release the product independent testing will show that it is worthless and ruin the chances of selling the company. So for this reason they may not want to release the product.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on March 18, 2016, 05:38:05 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on March 18, 2016, 04:00:36 pm

Are people fundamentally stupid or is the slightest promise of a financial reward strong enough to override their common sense?

Yes.

:)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on March 18, 2016, 06:43:15 pm

Quote from: drussell on March 18, 2016, 05:38:05 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on March 18, 2016, 04:00:36 pm

Are people fundamentally stupid or is the slightest promise of a financial reward strong enough to override their common sense?

Yes.

The VCs I've spoken to all seem to think, "If only one in ten of these things work then I make money".

The people on IndieGoGo? Proof that P.T.Barnum was right.

The journalists that reprinted the Batteriser press release without even thinking about it? They're partly responsible for people losing their money.

The people at CNET who gave it a "product of the year" rating? I don't even have a suitable word to describe them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on March 18, 2016, 10:32:04 pm

We are all monkeys! ;)

But yeah, CNET can't be run by the most clever monkeys around... or they received a very large shipment of bananas.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on March 18, 2016, 10:44:53 pm

Even the monkeys don't want to be associated with Battero.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on March 19, 2016, 12:25:08 am

Latests from IGG comments. They won an industry award :wtf: :palm: Yeah, I know awards like these are usually just some incestuous back scratching and not based on pragmatic though, but it still leaves a bitter taste.

Original press release at:
http://ww2.frost.com/news/press-releases/top-executives-honored-prestigious-frost-sullivan-awards-gala/ (http://ww2.frost.com/news/press-releases/top-executives-honored-prestigious-frost-sullivan-awards-gala/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on March 19, 2016, 01:37:29 am

'The Best Practices Awards are presented each year to companies that are predicted to encourage significant growth in their industries, have identified emerging trends before they became the standard in the marketplace, and have created advanced technologies that will catalyze and transform industries in the near future.'

Somebody at Frost Sullivan has been drinking the Batteroo Kool-Aid!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on March 19, 2016, 02:25:58 am

Wow!

What complete and utter NONSENSE!!!

How do all these morons get away with this crap?!!

Edit: I have a feeling this is one of those organizations that you pay to have your name put in lights with their "prestigious" events (like typical joke of the the coffee table book of the 1000 top XYZ award people where they ask you how many copies you want to order for your friends and relatives)

Complete BS wankery disguised as actual prestige unless you someone actually tries to go looking, I assume...

Well, we know where the funders monetary contributions are going, at any rate...  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 19, 2016, 02:40:46 am

Maybe they should win the inaugural EEVblog Shonky Product Of The Year Award?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 19, 2016, 02:45:23 am

Sounds pretty fair to me - but some might have reservations, based on the technicality as to whether they really do have a 'product'.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 19, 2016, 02:47:50 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on March 18, 2016, 04:32:49 pm

Lists Bob and Frankie as the inventors. So some of the ownership has been transferred from Frankie to Bob.
We also have Bob's employment history:
March 2011 to September 5th 2012 Bob was President of DigitalOptics Corp.
I wonder if Frankie was helping his brother by giving a share of the Batteriser Patent?

Bob got booted out of DigitalOptics
http://optics.org/press/1605 (http://optics.org/press/1605)
IIRC he sued them and got an $800K? payout. The link is somewhere in this huge thread.
So Bob had no shortage of money.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 19, 2016, 02:57:16 am

Make that a $940K termination payment from DigitalOptics:
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1261694/000092189513000895/dfan14a06297103_04302013.pdf (http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1261694/000092189513000895/dfan14a06297103_04302013.pdf)

(http://i.imgur.com/bihzrtB.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 19, 2016, 03:51:50 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 19, 2016, 02:57:16 am

Make that a $940K termination payment from DigitalOptics:
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1261694/000092189513000895/dfan14a06297103_04302013.pdf (http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1261694/000092189513000895/dfan14a06297103_04302013.pdf)

~$2,000,000

"On September 4, 2012, Tessera announced that Dr. Bob Roohparvar was departing the Company less than 18 months after he joined.  His departure cost shareholders close to $950,000 in cash severance, and $1 million when taking into account Dr. Roohparvar's post-departure consulting arrangement with the Company"
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/starboard-delivers-letter-to-tessera-technologies-board-191801441.html]
[url]http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/starboard-delivers-letter-to-tessera-technologies-board-191801441.html (http://[url)[/url]

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rx8pilot on March 19, 2016, 04:02:52 am

And to think that I actually work for a living. I should get into tge the scam industry, it seems to pay well.

Sent from my horrible mobile....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 19, 2016, 04:07:41 am

So assuming that Bob has no other debts (ideally he shouldn't as a long standing highly paid executive), and more than million in the bank, and he truly believed in Batteriser, and he really is the serial entrepreneur he claims to be, why would he take the VC money?
Why not fund it himself, change the world with his revolutionary product, and keep every last cent and total control?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on March 19, 2016, 04:36:55 am

Quote from: EEVblog

  Maybe they should win the inaugural EEVblog Shonky Product Of The Year Award? 

Look, this is a good scam, but surely that title HAS to goto Solar Roadways ! Purely based on the sheer number of people, and countries, taking it seriously !
I associate / visit Universities and other tech groups, and lots of their students think it's a great idea ! We're DOOMED I tell you.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 19, 2016, 04:57:28 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 19, 2016, 04:07:41 am

So assuming that Bob has no other debts (ideally he shouldn't as a long standing highly paid executive), and more than million in the bank, and he truly believed in Batteriser, and he really is the serial entrepreneur he claims to be, why would he take the VC money?
Why not fund it himself, change the world with his revolutionary product, and keep every last cent and total control?

I'll play devils advocate... (and not that I believe).

1. No real financial information for the company. It's possible he has put money in.
2. There is no guarantee a company will make it even with the best invention; even with $1,000,000, many people would consider the majority off limits for startup gambling ($1,000,000 isn't enough for a lot of people to retire on while maintaining the same standard of living).
3. There are other major reasons to approach a VC. Many have connections you want, resources, experience. VC backing can bring some credibility to a company. Certain VCs increase PR exposure.
4. If you're forming a startup with other people, then you have to think about equity balance (one partner having too much control or not enough equity incentive to get people on board). You could still invest with a convertible or something, but you don't get the control with it so, not as attractive
5. If you really think the company has the potential to explode, then focusing on growing the company as fast as possible while taking some hit on the equity to do that is likely to put you in a far better spot. $1,000,000 doesn't last long, if at all, for a company moving fast so a VC might make sense

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on March 19, 2016, 05:12:34 am

You are complicating things too much. Frankie sold Bob the patent and made tracks to his next job. Maybe not sold it but convinced him into doing this keeping himself employed until his new venture.

Of course it's just conjecture

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on March 19, 2016, 05:44:59 am

That "award" company is a PR firm, or "Growth Consulting", as they call it. They are in the marketing business. That's like believing an ad copy when it tells you the product it is selling is the best.

There are many reviews of F&S out there. Apparently it costs about $20k-30k to be given an award. That must be why they can't afford a camera.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on March 19, 2016, 06:16:31 am

Quote from: Fungus on March 18, 2016, 11:42:57 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on March 18, 2016, 08:30:04 am

Oh well, if worse comes to worst then surely we as a community could perhaps all chip in a few cents each (<5) and buy them out lock, stock and bunnies

Lock, stock and monkeys...

Bunnies…. what the hell was I thinking of, perhaps the entire saga reminds me of a disgusting flea ridden rodent that helps itself to other peoples commodities and then scurries back down a dark hole in a cowardly fashion, waits for the dust to settle before they are back out and at it again in a nearby field.

Anyway hopefully they have been ferreted out once and for all, they certainly came-a-cropper in this instance.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on March 19, 2016, 07:17:38 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 19, 2016, 02:40:46 am

Maybe they should win the inaugural EEVblog Shonky Product Of The Year Award?

Why not? Choice.com.au have their Shonky Awards http://classic.choice.com.au/shonkyaward.aspx (http://classic.choice.com.au/shonkyaward.aspx)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on March 19, 2016, 07:35:34 am

Quote from: Halcyon on March 19, 2016, 07:17:38 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 19, 2016, 02:40:46 am

Maybe they should win the inaugural EEVblog Shonky Product Of The Year Award?

Why not? Choice.com.au have their Shonky Awards http://classic.choice.com.au/shonkyaward.aspx (http://classic.choice.com.au/shonkyaward.aspx)

I think you need an actual product to be eligible, insert the "we've got nothing" emoticon here, here and here.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on March 19, 2016, 08:06:21 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on March 19, 2016, 01:37:29 am

'The Best Practices Awards are presented each year to companies that are predicted to encourage significant growth in their industries, have identified emerging trends before they became the standard in the marketplace, and have created advanced technologies that will catalyze and transform industries in the near future.'

Somebody at Frost Sullivan has been drinking the Batteroo Kool-Aid!

" Frost & Sullivan’s 2016 Excellence in Best Practices Awards Gala was held Tuesday, March 15, in San Diego, Calif., at the Hilton San Diego Resort & Spa. The event brought together industry-leading executives to celebrate their success."

Sounds like an opportunity for a bunch of executives (read: rich old men) to get together and knead each others' egos, pat each other on the back for how much money they made (read: scammed/cheated/weazled) last financial year, and rub scented oils into each other in the spa while drinking lemon tea. Sounds like it would be right up Bob's alley, so to speak...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on March 19, 2016, 10:31:59 am

Quote from: Nerull on March 19, 2016, 05:44:59 am

That "award" company is a PR firm, or "Growth Consulting", as they call it. They are in the marketing business. That's like believing an ad copy when it tells you the product it is selling is the best.

There are many reviews of F&S out there. Apparently it costs about $20k-30k to be given an award. That must be why they can't afford a camera.

Quote from: samgab on March 19, 2016, 08:06:21 am

Sounds like an opportunity for a bunch of executives (read: rich old men) to get together and knead each others' egos, pat each other on the back for how much money they made (read: scammed/cheated/weazled) last financial year, and rub scented oils into each other in the spa while drinking lemon tea. Sounds like it would be right up Bob's alley, so to speak...

Precisely what I thought...  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on March 19, 2016, 06:07:53 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on March 19, 2016, 06:16:31 am

Quote from: Fungus on March 18, 2016, 11:42:57 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on March 18, 2016, 08:30:04 am

Oh well, if worse comes to worst then surely we as a community could perhaps all chip in a few cents each (<5) and buy them out lock, stock and bunnies

Lock, stock and monkeys...

Bunnies…. what the hell was I thinking of, perhaps the entire saga reminds me of a disgusting flea ridden rodent that helps itself to other peoples commodities and then scurries back down a dark hole in a cowardly fashion, waits for the dust to settle before they are back out and at it again in a nearby field.

Anyway hopefully they have been ferreted out once and for all, they certainly came-a-cropper in this instance.

 I dunno about that, sometimes you have to watch out for those rabbits

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJKBYHNxh6g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJKBYHNxh6g)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on March 19, 2016, 06:40:21 pm

Quote from: rrinker on March 19, 2016, 06:07:53 pm

...

 I dunno about that, sometimes you have to watch out for those rabbits

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJKBYHNxh6g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJKBYHNxh6g)

That... video... was... AWESOME!!!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on March 20, 2016, 07:11:17 am

Quote from: MLXXXp on March 18, 2016, 02:52:21 pm

Quote from: Fungus on March 18, 2016, 11:42:57 am

Lock, stock and monkeys...

Or, to be closer to the original figures of speech:
Lock, stock and barrel of monkeys  ;)

lock, stock and two smoking barrels of monkeys ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 20, 2016, 08:33:42 pm

Batteriser has $400k of people's money, not well-off investors, but people. Now they are ignoring the people.

I wrote the following to Indiegogo. I kept it to the point, and in regards to their policies.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Campaign is claiming to do the impossible: Claims refuted by NUMEROUS professionals.

Repeatedly breaking promises and/or commitments to Contributors (including delivering any Perks).

Poor communication with contributors, despite numerous requests.

Suspected immoral or unethical behavior, including fraudulent claims against, and hiring 3rd parties to defame, those who fairly-dispute campaigner's claims.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

For the people who contributed to Batteriser, I encourage you all to do the same. Be polite, be factual. Hopefully, this will cause Indiegogo to put _some_ kind of pressure on Batteriser to communicate better with their supporters.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on March 20, 2016, 09:43:07 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 20, 2016, 08:33:42 pm

For the people who contributed to Batteriser, I encourage you all to do the same. Be polite, be factual. Hopefully, this will cause Indiegogo to put _some_ kind of pressure on Batteriser to communicate better with their supporters.

IndieGoGo don't care. Several people already wrote to them about this (including me).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 20, 2016, 09:48:29 pm

Quote

IndieGoGo don't care. Several people already wrote to them about this (including me).

How about writing to some of the media-attentioni that Batteriser sources : wmur9, factitup, techhive, appleinsider, zmescience, daily-star, geek.com, digitaltrends. engineering.com, geekygadgets, bgr, yahoo, cnnmoney, macworld. pcworld, techxplore, dailymail.com, PRNewswire

We could write them saying, "Remember those guys? Look at them now."  Perhaps some bad press will get their attention.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: station240 on March 21, 2016, 01:11:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 19, 2016, 02:40:46 am

Maybe they should win the inaugural EEVblog Shonky Product Of The Year Award?

Fixed, remember there is no product in this case.

Dave remember these guys (sums up the Batteriser people)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8IKyaFjWUE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8IKyaFjWUE)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on March 21, 2016, 05:12:41 am

More and more people are getting tired of this...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=210372;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=210374;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 21, 2016, 05:35:01 am

Quote from: quad on March 21, 2016, 05:12:41 am

More and more people are getting tired of this...

"Bob, This may not be a scam but we would never know it from the lack of info you provide. You could sure benefit by retaking Communications 101 and Customer Relations 101. You obviously majored in and got a PhD in Bullshit with a Minor in Dodgeball. Perhaps you should consider another job – maybe campaign manager for Hillary Clinton or Press Secretary for Barack Obama! "

Special from the group, I don't necessarily agree with the selection of politicians but conveys the message! :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on March 21, 2016, 06:45:52 am

Batteroo are still receiving awards?

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/top-executives-honored-prestigious-frost-120000324.html

Somebody needs to write to the editor ( estefany.ariza@frost.com ) and tell them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 21, 2016, 08:11:18 pm

Quote from: Fungus on March 21, 2016, 06:45:52 am

Somebody needs to write to the editor ( estefany.ariza@frost.com ) and tell them.

I did without reply.

I still say we contact all the media outlet that Batteriser sources. If we can embarrass Batteriser, perhaps they will be more motivated to produce results.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 21, 2016, 08:26:34 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 21, 2016, 05:35:01 am

"Bob, This may not be a scam but we would never know it from the lack of info you provide. You could sure benefit by retaking Communications 101 and Customer Relations 101. You obviously majored in and got a PhD in Bullshit with a Minor in Dodgeball. Perhaps you should consider another job – maybe campaign manager for Hillary Clinton or Press Secretary for Barack Obama! "

Someone watching the indiegogo comments didn't like this one in particular.....now deleted. Wonder who that could have been? lol

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 21, 2016, 09:06:22 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 21, 2016, 08:26:34 pm

Someone watching the indiegogo comments didn't like this one in particular.....now deleted. Wonder who that could have been? lol

People spewing insults and vulgarity are just creating noise for those legitimately voicing their concerns and grievances. I do find them entertaining and funny, but I'm sure they discourage Bob from responding.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on March 21, 2016, 09:14:16 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 21, 2016, 09:06:22 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 21, 2016, 08:26:34 pm

Someone watching the indiegogo comments didn't like this one in particular.....now deleted. Wonder who that could have been? lol

People spewing insults and vulgarity are just creating noise for those legitimately voicing their concerns and grievances. I do find them entertaining and funny, but I'm sure they discourage Bob from responding.

I'd hardly consider that insulting or vulger. Bob should be thankful this guy didn't use more colourful language. I thought it was quite witty to be honest, I might not have been so tactful. Although if it did push a button with Bob, then it had it's desired effect.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 21, 2016, 09:17:29 pm

Oh?:

" You obviously majored in and got a PhD in Bullshit with a Minor in Dodgeball. "

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on March 21, 2016, 09:28:44 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 21, 2016, 09:17:29 pm

Oh?:

" You obviously majored in and got a PhD in Bullshit with a Minor in Dodgeball. "

I think "You sir, are a naughty man" doesn't quite have the same punch to it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 21, 2016, 09:44:40 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on March 21, 2016, 09:28:44 pm

I think "You sir, are a naughty man" doesn't quite have the same punch to it.

I'm saying that "punch" may discourage Bob from communicating with those politely asking for an update.

I'll admit it, I am enjoying the Bob-bashing, but I feel bad for those people who invested $400k in the Batteriser. We should find ways to encourage Bob to improve his communication, for the benefit of the Batteriser supporters.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 21, 2016, 09:50:46 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 21, 2016, 09:44:40 pm

I'm saying that "punch" may discourage Bob from communicating with those politely asking for an update.

Promised an update for over a month now. Punches don't travel back in time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 21, 2016, 09:55:03 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 21, 2016, 09:44:40 pm

I'll admit it, I am enjoying the Bob-bashing, but I feel bad for those people who invested $400k in the Batteriser. We should find ways to encourage Bob to improve his communication, for the benefit of the Batteriser supporters.

It's clear Bob doesn't want to communicate.
No amount of encouragement is going to fix that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on March 21, 2016, 10:07:29 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 21, 2016, 09:44:40 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on March 21, 2016, 09:28:44 pm

I think "You sir, are a naughty man" doesn't quite have the same punch to it.

I'm saying that "punch" may discourage Bob from communicating with those politely asking for an update.

I'll admit it, I am enjoying the Bob-bashing, but I feel bad for those people who invested $400k in the Batteriser. We should find ways to encourage Bob to improve his communication, for the benefit of the Batteriser supporters.

I often find companies response to clever and witty insults and criticism, especially when it's made publically on their Facebook, Twitter pages etc...

As Dave said, Bob has no intention of responding nor does he have even the slightest intention of providing updates with any substance to it. IGG backers, critics and even members of this forum have been nice enough to Bob, he deserves everything he gets coming to him. Unless of course he can deliver on his promises, apologise for the poor customer service and on-going delays or at the very least, throw his hands up and tell everyone "we were wrong and didn't think this through" and offer some kind of refund (if there is any money left) -- Neither of those things will happen.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 21, 2016, 10:12:13 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on March 21, 2016, 09:55:03 pm

It's clear Bob doesn't want to communicate.
No amount of encouragement is going to fix that.

Don't they also have other investors --something like a $1M investor? Don't they want to sell to big-chain stores? Why not send a bunch of polite messages to the batteriser.com-sourced media-mentions like CNN money? Who knows? Perhaps they, or one of the other media outlets, will get the attention of someone Bob does answer to.

If he gets bad press, not just isolated Indiegogo diatribes, he may be more inclined to act. It's not big a deal angering some $100 contributor; It is a big deal discouraging large investors or potential buyers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 21, 2016, 10:25:58 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 21, 2016, 10:12:13 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on March 21, 2016, 09:55:03 pm

It's clear Bob doesn't want to communicate.
No amount of encouragement is going to fix that.

Don't they also have other investors --something like a $1M investor? Don't they want to sell to big-chain stores? Why not send a bunch of polite messages to the batteriser.com-sourced media-mentions like CNN money? Who knows? Perhaps they, or one of the other media outlets, will get the attention of someone Bob does answer to.

If he gets bad press, not just isolated Indiegogo diatribes, he may be more inclined to act. It's not big a deal angering some $100 contributor; It is a big deal discouraging large investors or potential buyers.

They'd have to run a story, saying they promoted a product without fact checking. They aren't going to print that without major incentive to do so.

The investors are almost certainly 100% aware of what's going on.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 21, 2016, 10:32:25 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 21, 2016, 10:25:58 pm

They'd have to run a story, saying they promoted a product without fact checking. They aren't going to print that without major incentive to do so.

The investors are almost certainly 100% aware of what's going on.

Yeah, these are the arguments I'm trying to get around.

On the story-front: Many of the stories are "Look at the cool product that they guys say they are making." They are not claiming that the product actually works

On the investor front: If they think they will not get any return due to bad press, they'll get on Bob's case.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 21, 2016, 11:41:18 pm

To put it another way:

Everyone here is enjoying Bob and Batteriser bashing. Why not embarrass them in front of their cited media "mentioners?" We got nothing to lose.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 22, 2016, 12:02:28 am

Quote from: akohler on March 21, 2016, 11:41:18 pm

To put it another way:

Everyone here is enjoying Bob and Batteriser bashing. Why not embarrass them in front of their cited media "mentioners?" We got nothing to lose.

Personally, I'm not here to embarrass anyone and won't go out of my way to do so.  Watching things unfold and discussing is fine, but not for getting involved in an 'embarrassment' campaign or whatever. I don't think they need help anyway.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 22, 2016, 12:27:36 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 22, 2016, 12:02:28 am

Personally, I'm not here to embarrass anyone and won't go out of my way to do so.  Watching things unfold and discussing is fine, but not for getting involved in an 'embarrassment' campaign or whatever. I don't think they need help anyway.

Batteriser embarrass themselves literally every time they open their mouth. It's actually rather fascinating to watch, which I think is why so many people in the industry are so fixated on following the saga.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 22, 2016, 12:30:01 am

I'm not suggesting anything vulgar or unethical.

I'm suggesting something along the lines of:
"Remember them?"
"This is how they are behaving."
"This is what they are claiming"

Just be factual, and let the media outlets know that people have lost $400k on a "miracle product" that is questionable; that they seem to be taking the money and producing no tangible results.

There's bound to be some follow-up from a few of the media outlets, and get Bob's attention.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 22, 2016, 12:30:43 am

Quote from: akohler on March 21, 2016, 11:41:18 pm

To put it another way:

Everyone here is enjoying Bob and Batteriser bashing. Why not embarrass them in front of their cited media "mentioners?" We got nothing to lose.

From my perspective, the reactions being posted here are not just about 'bashing' Bob and Batteriser - they are an expression of frustration of two basic issues.

1. The product has been touted, promoted and offered as having features which are not credible to many - especially to members of this forum and like-minded people around the world.

2. The product has failed to be shipped on several occasions, depriving ALL of the opportunity to review the product and either prove or refute the claims made.

A further issue is the legal and moral problem of fraud.  Taking people's money on the promise of delivering a product and not doing so; promising updates and not providing them; ignoring complaints - and censoring them where they can; and (afaik) not providing refunds to those who have asked for them - ALL adds up to a steaming pile of @#%%!!!


Bob - if you really want this to go away - come clean or deliver your product.

If you're trying to 'wait it out' until everybody forgets - you don't know the EE brain very well.  Unanswered questions are like a stone in a shoe ... and we don't like uncomfortable feet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 22, 2016, 12:32:52 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 22, 2016, 12:27:36 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 22, 2016, 12:02:28 am

Personally, I'm not here to embarrass anyone and won't go out of my way to do so.  Watching things unfold and discussing is fine, but not for getting involved in an 'embarrassment' campaign or whatever. I don't think they need help anyway.

Batteriser embarrass themselves literally every time they open their mouth. It's actually rather fascinating to watch, which I think is why so many people in the industry are so fixated on following the saga.

Yeah, so we get to laugh at them while they have $400k of other people's money. Their embarrassment is our amusement; I'd rather it be for something productive.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 22, 2016, 12:44:26 am

Quote from: akohler on March 22, 2016, 12:32:52 am

Yeah, so we get to laugh at them while they have $400k of other people's money. Their embarrassment is our amusement; I'd rather it be for something productive.

Sure, but it is what it is.
Since this whole Batteriser thing started I don't think I've met a single person who has not mentioned it to me and laughed and facepalmed. People seems to be genuinely fascinated by the stupidity of it all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on March 22, 2016, 01:07:44 am

I am currently working on an enhanced version of the Batteriser. After the voltage is boosted so I can get double the power out of a battery, I put it through another buck converter to take it down to a voltage that exactly matches the voltage on the battery.

This has the technical advantage over the original Batteriser in that torch user get a visual feedback on the state of their batteries, and it means that electronic devices can accurately judge the state of the batteries. For example, if I was deep in a sea cave using my Triton Artifical Gills a few hundred meters underwater and if I was using the original Batteriser in my torch, I would get no warning that the battery was flat. One moment the torch is working, the next moment the battery is dead. With absolutely no light deep in this sea cave a few hundred meters underwater using my Triton Artifical Gills, I could even suffer a slight anxiety. With my revolutionary new technology, I would get a gradual indication of the lowering charge in the battery and thus eliminating all possible causes of anxiety.

I have managed to reduce the size of these dual stage inverters down to undetectable nano particles that you brush onto the positive battery terminal, upon which they immediately fuse into the metal contact and take on the exact characteristics of the contacts.

As you can understand, I cannot reveal any technical details at all because I am spending all my time applying for patents. I will be supplying my undetectable nano particles in a small plastics vial, but as far as I can see, there are millions of other apparently empty plastic vials on the market that are probably also full of undetectable nano particles. My legal team is already sending out letters to these patent violators.

There is no need to check the efficiency, because I know that I will get at least double the power out. Measurements are technical and they just confuse everyone.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 22, 2016, 01:30:49 am

Quote from: amspire on March 22, 2016, 01:07:44 am

I am currently working on an enhanced version of the Batteriser. After the voltage is boosted so I can get double the power out of a battery, I put it through another buck converter to take it down to a voltage that exactly matches the voltage on the battery.

This has the technical advantage over the original Batteriser in that torch user get a visual feedback on the state of their batteries, and it means that electronic devices can accurately judge the state of the batteries. For example, if I was deep in a sea cave using my Triton Artifical Gills a few hundred meters underwater and if I was using the original Batteriser in my torch, I would get no warning that the battery was flat. One moment the torch is working, the next moment the battery is dead. With absolutely no light deep in this sea cave a few hundred meters underwater using my Triton Artifical Gills, I could even suffer a slight anxiety. With my revolutionary new technology, I would get a gradual indication of the lowering charge in the battery and thus eliminating all possible causes of anxiety.

I have managed to reduce the size of these dual stage inverters down to undetectable nano particles that you brush onto the positive battery terminal, upon which they immediately fuse into the metal contact and take on the exact characteristics of the contacts.

As you can understand, I cannot reveal any technical details at all because I am spending all my time applying for patents. I will be supplying my undetectable nano particles in a small plastics vial, but as far as I can see, there are millions of other apparently empty plastic vials on the market that are probably also full of undetectable nano particles. My legal team is already sending out letters to these patent violators.

There is no need to check the efficiency, because I know that I will get at least double the power out. Measurements are technical and they just confuse everyone.

(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/walkingdead/images/3/3f/Shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/320?cb=20140829235648)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 22, 2016, 01:40:09 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 22, 2016, 12:44:26 am

Quote from: akohler on March 22, 2016, 12:32:52 am

Yeah, so we get to laugh at them while they have $400k of other people's money. Their embarrassment is our amusement; I'd rather it be for something productive.

Sure, but it is what it is.
Since this whole Batteriser thing started I don't think I've met a single person who has not mentioned it to me and laughed and facepalmed. People seems to be genuinely fascinated by the stupidity of it all.

I'm one of them, but I had a moment of clarity: Not everyone gets to think this is funny.

I didn't contribute any money, as I have the knowledge to see through their claims. I get to hope that Dave and other pros will one day get their hands on a unit, and prove how useless the Batterier is in most use-cases. Or, I get to hope that Batteroo goes down in flames. I get to watch numerous people debunk, and bash, and lampoon. _We_, the people "in-the-know," are the people who are able to joke about it. We are an isolated group sharing the absurdity amongst ourselves.

Unfortunately, there are people who don't have electrical backgrounds, who gave money believing in this product. Many still do. They were hoping to give these as gifts. They still hope to. They are standing-by, waiting for Bob to say something, but he doesn't seem to have any motivation to do so.

We are the ones in the bleachers watching this freak-show, so we have the big-picture. Whether or not the Batteriser works, whether or not it's a futile effort, let's see if we can use we have observed to help out the contributors, and get them their product, or at least get them some official answers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on March 22, 2016, 02:07:06 am

Quote from: amspire on March 22, 2016, 01:07:44 am

I am currently working on an enhanced version of the Batteriser. After the voltage is boosted so I can get double the power out of a battery, I put it through another buck converter to take it down to a voltage that exactly matches the voltage on the battery.

Snip..

I have managed to reduce the size of these dual stage inverters down to undetectable nano particles that you brush onto the positive battery terminal, upon which they immediately fuse into the metal contact and take on the exact characteristics of the contacts.

Snip..

I have submitted your idea  to Flakey and Shanky (along with a little money). They have rewarded awarded you with the:

"F&S 'Emperor has new clothes' award for best managed product development and for showing exceptional leadership"

(The Emperor has new clothes award, celebrates the work of Hans Christian Andersen, who made a living writing fairy stories).

From Wikipedia:

The Emperor's New Clothes" (Danish: Kejserens nye Klæder) is a short tale by Hans Christian Andersen about two weavers who promise an emperor a new suit of clothes that is invisible to those who are unfit for their positions, stupid, or incompetent. When the Emperor parades before his subjects in his new clothes, no one dares to say that he doesn't see any suit of clothes until a child cries out, "But he isn't wearing anything at all!" The tale has been translated into over a hundred languages.



A press release is being circulated on the PRNewswire, you can expect to included in CNN's best products for 2016.

I suggest you start your IGG campaign now..

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on March 22, 2016, 02:07:31 am

Goal posts moved to April, but of course added the weasel words...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=210681;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on March 22, 2016, 02:10:14 am

Probably the best thing at this point in the debacle - is to post various links and references to Bob, Frankie and Batteroo, and this thread on as many boards and fora as possible.

Be careful to remain objectives and non-defamatory...
Every search for any term will drop on them like a ton of bricks.
With luck, The Boobparvar team and Probes the monkey will be lucky to get a job selling hotdogs at a ball game.  Fingers crossed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on March 22, 2016, 02:33:55 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on March 22, 2016, 02:07:06 am

I have submitted your idea  to Flakey and Shanky (along with a little money). They have rewarded awarded you with the:

"F&S 'Emperor has new clothes' award for best managed product development and for showing exceptional leadership"

(The Emperor has new clothes award, celebrates the work of Hans Christian Andersen, who made a living writing fairy stories).

Thanks. Life is tough when you are living on the bleeding edge of technical innovations. It is moments like this and receiving buckets of money from investors that make it worthwhile.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 22, 2016, 03:54:11 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/EG1eOJV.png?1)

Does Indiegogo have much power to do anything? What can they do  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on March 22, 2016, 04:17:21 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 22, 2016, 03:54:11 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/EG1eOJV.png?1)

Does Indiegogo have much power to do anything? What can they do  :-//

These IGG *backers* seem to be under the misaprehension that they are *customers* who have purchased something!

They are not, and they are screwed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on March 22, 2016, 04:28:48 pm

I reported another Indiegogo campaing that was trying to sell a fake Apple Watch, they goes into "investigation". But don't be foolded, it mean doing nothing.

Indiegogo don't care AT ALL about the project on they're website. They are too happy to get money from them

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on March 22, 2016, 06:19:55 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 22, 2016, 03:54:11 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/EG1eOJV.png?1)

Does Indiegogo have much power to do anything? What can they do  :-//

I received that exact same reply six months ago when the campaign is in progress. It's just a standard reply form, they're not doing anything.

What can they do now? I assume they've already transferred the funds to Batteroo (minus their $40,000 commission). There's probably very little they can do even if they wanted to.

(which they don't - $40,000 is $40,0000...it's not IndieGoGo that's telling the lies to the backers, right?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on March 22, 2016, 07:54:29 pm

I got the same reply a long time ago as well. I don't think Indiegogo cares as long as they decide the batterizer doesn't hurt them financially or publicly, at least not more than they benefit from the campaign.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on March 22, 2016, 09:58:55 pm

Here what I received when I reported another campain which was even more a scam than the batteriser..

First message:

Quote

Hi there,

Thank you for sharing your concern with us. At this time, the campaign is under review to ensure that it adheres to our Terms of Use (http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms (http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms)). We will follow up with you if we have any further questions.

So what happens now? We will include the information you have provided along with all other information at our disposal in our review of the campaign. In some cases, we will contact the campaign owner to have them edit their campaign and it will remain on our platform. If the project doesn't follow our rules, we may remove the campaign. We may also restrict the campaign owner's future activities on Indiegogo.

To protect our users' privacy, we're unable to share the action we take. At Indiegogo, we take the trust and safety of our community very seriously, and we greatly appreciate your patience and understanding throughout this review process. To learn more about Indiegogo’s Trust & Safety effort, please visit: www.indiegogo.com/trust (http://www.indiegogo.com/trust)

Please note that you do not need to contact us again. Doing so would create a new ticket and prolong the process. Thank you again for taking the time to get in touch with us and for helping to keep Indiegogo a safe and secure platform.

Second message:

Quote

Hi there,

Thank you for sharing your concern with us. At this time, the campaign, ‘XXXX’, is under review to ensure that it adheres to our Terms of Use (http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms (http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms)).

So what happens now? We will include the information you have provided along with all other information at our disposal in our review of the campaign. In some cases, we will contact the campaign owner to have them edit their campaign and it will remain on our platform. If the project doesn't follow our rules, we may remove the campaign. We may also restrict the campaign owner's future activities on Indiegogo.

To protect our users' privacy, we're unable to share the action we take. At Indiegogo, we take the trust and safety of our community very seriously, and we greatly appreciate your patience and understanding throughout this review process. To learn more about Indiegogo’s Trust & Safety effort, please visit: www.indiegogo.com/trust (http://www.indiegogo.com/trust)

Please note that you do not need to contact us again. Doing so would create a new ticket and prolong the process. Thank you again for taking the time to get in touch with us and for helping to keep Indiegogo a safe and secure platform.

Regards,

Brian
Trust and Safety

Indiegogo|
Generosity

Both as just plain generic answer, with no human interraction, I'm sure of that

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 22, 2016, 11:42:01 pm

My holier-than-thou diatribe from yesterday may be moot. The indiegogo natives are really starting to freak-out on their own.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 22, 2016, 11:43:52 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 22, 2016, 03:54:11 pm

Does Indiegogo have much power to do anything? What can they do  :-//

They can't do anything. Batteroo already have the money.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 23, 2016, 12:11:00 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 22, 2016, 11:43:52 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 22, 2016, 03:54:11 pm

Does Indiegogo have much power to do anything? What can they do  :-//

They can't do anything. Batteroo already have the money.

Maybe Batteroo has the money - but aren't there non-financial actions they could take?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on March 23, 2016, 12:17:31 am

From an alleged Frost & Sullivan Roohparvar interview dated July 2015:
VS: What kind of customer feedback mechanism do you have in place to ensure that the product development and innovation matches market and customer needs?
  BR: From the start, Batteriser is committed to maintaining a strong online presence, which will allow for customers to contact us whenever they’d like. Consumers will be able to reach out to us through our web site, via e-mail, and via social media like Facebook and twitter.
  Further, one of the critical elements of our crowdfunding campaign is early shipping of product and direct feedback access to the Batteriser team, allowing for an active dialogue between our team and our early-adopters.
  As we enter broader distribution, we will continue to take consumer feedback very seriously, by scaling up our CRM tools to facilitate swift communication.

Time to scale up your CRM tools, Bob... [cricket noises]

The full article here: https://www.frost.com/sublib/display-market-insight.do?id=295404655 (https://www.frost.com/sublib/display-market-insight.do?id=295404655)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 23, 2016, 12:24:20 am

good find

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on March 23, 2016, 12:30:57 am

The funny thing is they haven't done any of that.

Sorry Bob, you are so full of shit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 23, 2016, 12:37:18 am

Quote from: Brumby on March 23, 2016, 12:11:00 am

Maybe Batteroo has the money - but aren't there non-financial actions they could take?

Well, ok, IGG could publicly (on the page) ask questions of overdue and questionable projects like this and have a ticking time limit for a reply from the campaigners. The question and reply (or lack of reply) would be publicly visible on the page. Make it a separate tab called "Questions/Discussion" or something, and have the comments in that section not deletable by the campaign backers.
Also, they need to actually put dates on updates, comments etc. None of this "2 Months Ago" rubbish.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 23, 2016, 12:52:08 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on March 23, 2016, 12:17:31 am

From an alleged Frost & Sullivan Roohparvar interview dated July 2015:
[...]

Could someone here, who is a batteriser contributor, post this on their site?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on March 23, 2016, 01:50:12 am

Hi,

The Batteriser team must be having a good time somewhere, or they are busy working on the shipment  :-DD

I have noticed that they have become slower in deleting comments on the IGG.

I would have expect the comment about the He-Shes in Thailand would be long gone.

How can they attempt to sell the company with these comments on the IGG campaign? Also if you type Batteriser into Google the second suggestion is "Batteriser Scam".

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on March 23, 2016, 02:26:13 am

They've stopped checking as regularly, for sure. No doubt they'll do a big comments cleanse when they bother to check. A link to Dave's debunking video cannot last long!!

An interesting side note, the number of backers displayed everywhere is now 7385. They used to be difference in these numbers (as people would get refunds). 

The latest:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=210998;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=211000;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=211002;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on March 23, 2016, 04:53:32 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on March 23, 2016, 12:17:31 am

From an alleged Frost & Sullivan Roohparvar interview dated July 2015:
VS: What kind of customer feedback mechanism do you have in place to ensure that the product development and innovation matches market and customer needs?
  BR: From the start, Batteriser is committed to maintaining a strong online presence, which will allow for customers to contact us whenever they’d like. Consumers will be able to reach out to us through our web site, via e-mail, and via social media like Facebook and twitter....

Oooh! I feel another Facebook ban coming on. That's too good to not post it there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bills on March 23, 2016, 04:58:46 am

Do real people even use facebook ? :palm:
 :palm:
 to much time on there hands. ( yes I have too time on my hands but none to waste )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rx8pilot on March 23, 2016, 05:38:48 am

Quote from: bills on March 23, 2016, 04:58:46 am

Do real people even use facebook ? :palm:
 :palm:
 to much time on there hands. ( yes I have too time on my hands but none to waste )

A few billion or so.

At least a few million use it for advancing humanity. The rest seem to make political memes and cat videos.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 23, 2016, 06:20:59 am

Facebook - Facepalm ..... I see no difference.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on March 23, 2016, 09:57:20 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on March 23, 2016, 12:17:31 am

From an alleged Frost & Sullivan Roohparvar interview dated July 2015:
VS: What kind of customer feedback mechanism do you have in place to ensure that the product development and innovation matches market and customer needs?
  BR: From the start, Batteriser is committed to maintaining a strong online presence, which will allow for customers to contact us whenever they’d like. Consumers will be able to reach out to us through our web site, via e-mail, and via social media like Facebook and twitter....

To help understand I have inserted some comments..

BR: From the start, Batteriser is committed to maintaining a strong online presence, [similar to that of ruthless dictator], which will allow for customers to contact us whenever they’d like [It will not help. We will respond, with marketing weasel words, on our schedule. We will use phrases like 'Within a few days, we'll provide an update to give our customers a little peace and assurance.'  or 'We'll be posting an update very soon. We have not forgotten our indiegogo customers.[although we are trying hard]' and even 'We do see the value in having some photos to show you all, so we plan on including some in our future updates'.[being careful not to commit or promise] Consumers will be able to reach out to us through our web site, via e-mail, and via social media like Facebook and twitter....[Reaching out won't help. At our discretion, your messages will be deleted or not answered...]


Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on March 23, 2016, 10:19:56 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on March 23, 2016, 09:57:20 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on March 23, 2016, 12:17:31 am

From an alleged Frost & Sullivan Roohparvar interview dated July 2015:
VS: What kind of customer feedback mechanism do you have in place to ensure that the product development and innovation matches market and customer needs?
  BR: From the start, Batteriser is committed to maintaining a strong online presence, which will allow for customers to contact us whenever they’d like. Consumers will be able to reach out to us through our web site, via e-mail, and via social media like Facebook and twitter....

To help understand I have inserted some comments..
and a couple of extras

BR: From the start, Batteriser is committed to maintaining a strong online presence, [similar to that of ruthless dictator], which will allow for customers to contact us whenever they’d like
We may not respond, but that's our prerogative, as 'we're very busy'.  It will not help.
We will respond at our leisure, with marketing weasel words, on our schedule.
We will use phrases like 'Within a few days, we'll provide an update to give our customers a little peace and assurance.'  or 'We'll be posting an update very soon'.
We have not forgotten our indiegogo* customers.[although we are trying hard]' and even 'We do see the value in having some photos to show you all, so we plan on including some in our future updates'.[being careful not to commit or promise]

Meanwhile, you are free to copy and enjoy the photos of Probes and the Batteroo team.
Consumers will be able to reach out to us through our web site, via e-mail, and via social media like Facebook and twitter...

[Reaching out won't help. At our discretion, your messages will be deleted or not answered...] to free up our time to concentrate on our holidays development activities.
You may like to get in touch with our Contract Manufacturers (Wan Hung Lo Global Ltd) to verify the production and shipping schedule.. I'll post these details in our next scheduled update.


Jay_Diddy_B
*indie money comes, and outde money go-go's - whoosh, like magic.  Teknology is wonderful to make silicon valley millionaires!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 23, 2016, 08:17:31 pm

Talk of class-action
(http://i.imgur.com/WmSIPrs.png?2)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on March 23, 2016, 08:32:28 pm

Talk about the riding the wambulance a little too far.  Isn't it right in the backer agreement that there are no guarantees of anything?  Scam or not this isn't a legal issue, at least not for indegogo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on March 23, 2016, 09:08:12 pm

Quote from: Smokey on March 23, 2016, 08:32:28 pm

Isn't it right in the backer agreement that there are no guarantees of anything?

Yes.

Quote from: Smokey on March 23, 2016, 08:32:28 pm

Scam or not this isn't a legal issue, at least not for indegogo.

I really don't think any of them are lawyers.  :popcorn:

Even if they were, IndieGoGo wouldn't be worried. It's not their problem.

Batteroo are obviously lying but it's all very carefully worded lies. There's no promises or guarantees in anything they say.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 23, 2016, 09:08:31 pm

People are waking up I think

Im not a lawyer.......

Nothing stops someone or a group from filing a suit. Successful suit is different.

But for IGG platform, I think it's in the realm of possibility they could get in trouble for not making it clear (platform as a whole) - a lot of people seem to not get it. When you go to contribute, there is a two sentence warning, in a light grey that doesn't stand out. That's kinda iffy imo. Also just because terms say they aren't responsible, doesn't actually mean they aren't because law overrides all. Companies like google would be in a lot of trouble as a platform, but they comply with certain laws to make sure they don't have liability; they can't simply write in some agreement that they aren't responsible.

Even if a lawsuit is not won, or even a bunch thrown out, they increase the odds of triggering regulation or having new laws put into place.  For example, it used to be anyone could openly invest in small startups or whatever... but too many people were scammed... so now there is a ton of regulation and most people can't invest (certified investors have to have net worth +$1,000,000, or income level of +$200,000 for several years, by law in the US. There are a bunch of sites like IGG but for certified investors only (you buy equity or debt invest)).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on March 23, 2016, 09:18:22 pm

Quote from: Brumby on March 23, 2016, 12:11:00 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 22, 2016, 11:43:52 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 22, 2016, 03:54:11 pm

Does Indiegogo have much power to do anything? What can they do  :-//

They can't do anything. Batteroo already have the money.

Maybe Batteroo has the money - but aren't there non-financial actions they could take?

What, the kind involving pitchforks and torches?  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on March 23, 2016, 09:32:04 pm

What the backers needed before handing over the cash was the proper tools to identify another questionable product, from the get go and not after the animal has bolted, common sense trumps any app by the way.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on March 23, 2016, 09:33:19 pm

Quote from: Smokey on March 23, 2016, 08:32:28 pm

Talk about the riding the wambulance a little too far.  Isn't it right in the backer agreement that there are no guarantees of anything?  Scam or not this isn't a legal issue, at least not for indegogo.

Maybe not illegal, only a court can decide that, but IGG say scams are against their rules and we have pointed out to them this is a scam and yet they do nothing. IGG could have asked for some sort of verification this is real since bob claims they have several prototypes. It would have been so easy for them to verify (if they are too ignorant about electronics and the laws of physics to realize it by them selves). All-right, IGG is just in it for the money, nothing new there. Problem (besides a lot of honest but stupid people loosing their money) is it hurts all other crowd funding projects. In the end no one will want to sponsor legit campaigns either because they are afraid of being scammed. But hopefully it is only IGG that goes down and if Kickstarter (or someone else) keep the rubbish out people will stick to the more trustworthy service. :/

Anyway, so far it's been very entertaining and educational, and I can't wait for them to finally ship something that can be probed properly. It's the moment of truth, we are waiting for bob to put his cards on the table. :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 23, 2016, 09:34:12 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on March 23, 2016, 09:32:04 pm

What the backers needed before handing over the cash was the proper tools to identify another questionable product, from the get go and not after the animal has bolted, common sense trumps any app by the way.

People are under the impression that IGG has and uses one of these

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 23, 2016, 09:38:50 pm

Quote from: apis on March 23, 2016, 09:33:19 pm

Anyway, so far it's been very entertaining and educational, and I can't wait for them to finally ship something that can be probed properly. It's the moment of truth, we are waiting for bob to put his cards on the table. :popcorn:

I want them to ship. It will be an awesome teardown Tuesday.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on March 23, 2016, 09:45:11 pm

Yes, it will be either amazing feat of physics and engineering, or hilarious fail. Either way it will be great. :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GoneTomorrow on March 23, 2016, 10:36:02 pm

This thread now has more replies than the 2nd through 5th place threads in EEVBlog Specific combined  O0 I suppose Dave can be grateful of Batteriser Batteroo for stimulating such popular discussion.

How does this rank in terms of replies on the entire forum?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 23, 2016, 10:52:53 pm

Quote from: GoneTomorrow on March 23, 2016, 10:36:02 pm

This thread now has more replies than the 2nd through 5th place threads in EEVBlog Specific combined  O0 I suppose Dave can be grateful of Batteriser Batteroo for stimulating such popular discussion.

How does this rank in terms of replies on the entire forum?

looks to me about 4916/877217=0.5%

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 23, 2016, 11:12:46 pm

Quote from: apis on March 23, 2016, 09:33:19 pm

Maybe not illegal, only a court can decide that, but IGG say scams are against their rules and we have pointed out to them this is a scam and yet they do nothing. IGG could have asked for some sort of verification this is real since bob claims they have several prototypes.

It's a fact that they have prototypes.
There is little to nothing IGG can do here. They can ask all the questions and proof they want, it would be trivial for Batteroo to answer those to the satisfaction of a non-technical questioner.
It is not against the law to have a ridiculous idea you think might work, be technically wrong about the claims, ignore the experts (because you think you are the expert), be horribly inept at executing on it, and then still having hope when it all falls apart.

Quote

Anyway, so far it's been very entertaining and educational, and I can't wait for them to finally ship something that can be probed properly. It's the moment of truth, we are waiting for bob to put his cards on the table. :popcorn:

It's the reason they never shipped the media kits as promised. Once they ship a single unit the game is up.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Corporate666 on March 24, 2016, 12:42:34 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 23, 2016, 08:17:31 pm

Talk of class-action

On the one hand, good!  Fraudsters should be sued.  But it seems to me that 99.9% of people have no clue how class action suits work.  It comes up incessantly whenever a crowd funding project is in trouble.

In a traditional class action, a lawyer sues a well heeled client.  The settlement is huge, the lawyer takes the lions share, and the defendants get a pittance, other than the original plaintiffs who get a better payout (but they also have to spent lots of time and possibly money on the suit themselves).

That's not going to ever happen with a crowd funding project creator, because even the largest crowd funding projects have a tiny tiny fraction of the money a traditional class action defendant has.  Furthermore, the talk of class actions is usually because the project went sideways, meaning the money is usually or likely gone - so there's nothing for the lawyer to get.

The only way it could ever work is if the backers wanting to do a class action all chipped in money to pay the legal fees.  Class actions are a lot of money, so you'd be taking about raising a few hundred thousand dollars, which is probably more than the original amount raised.  Who would ever spend $100 to collect $50 when the $50 can never be collected because it's spent?

And class actions are civil suits - so if the defendant loses, his exposure is financial.  Well, if the money is gone - there's nothing to pay. So the class doesn't even get the satisfaction of seeing the scammer go to jail.

It seems most people think saying they want to pursue a class action suit means they think someone else will do all the work and they will get a check for $0.73 cents a year from now.  It doesn't work like that.


Not directed at you - just at the crowd funding people who talk of class actions.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on March 24, 2016, 01:28:17 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 23, 2016, 09:38:50 pm

Quote from: apis on March 23, 2016, 09:33:19 pm

Anyway, so far it's been very entertaining and educational, and I can't wait for them to finally ship something that can be probed properly. It's the moment of truth, we are waiting for bob to put his cards on the table. :popcorn:

I want them to ship. It will be an awesome teardown Tuesday.

Everyone knows they won't ship a working Batteriser - but if they shipped out a 'Probes' monkey toy as a sweetener instead, they'd go part way to restoring their loss of goodwill from Batteriser.
Ex China, the monkeys would be $1 packed, $1.50 shipped - so they'd still be $1 ahead... but this maths is probably beyond Bobby Batteroo. (and he'd supply the wrong batteries for the toy!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 24, 2016, 02:48:04 am

So it looks as if the trademark issue is not holding up shipping: [edit maybe not true... see follow post]

IN THE UNITED STATESPATENT AND TRADEMARKOFFICE BEFORE THE TRADEMARK TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
..
JOINT REQUEST FOR ENTRY OF STIPULATIONS, SCHEDULE MODIFICATIONS, AND A PROTECTIVE ORDER On February 10, 2106 Energizer Brands, LLC and Batteroo, Inc.

"Batteroo, Inc. agrees to provide a sample of the product to be sold under the opposed marks after the product has been shipped to consumers.  Batteroo estimates that shipment will occur in March."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 24, 2016, 04:58:52 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 24, 2016, 02:48:04 am

So it looks as if the trademark issue is not holding up shipping:
IN THE UNITED STATESPATENT AND TRADEMARKOFFICE BEFORE THE TRADEMARK TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
JOINT REQUEST FOR ENTRY OF STIPULATIONS, SCHEDULE MODIFICATIONS, AND A PROTECTIVE ORDER On February 10, 2106 Energizer Brands, LLC and Batteroo, Inc.
"Batteroo, Inc. agrees to provide a sample of the product to be sold under the opposed marks after the product has been shipped to consumers.  Batteroo estimates that shipment will occur in March."

That's really interesting. It's one thing to dick around with the public and backers, it's another thing entirely to dick around with Energiser's lawyers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 24, 2016, 05:36:03 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 24, 2016, 04:58:52 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 24, 2016, 02:48:04 am

So it looks as if the trademark issue is not holding up shipping:
IN THE UNITED STATESPATENT AND TRADEMARKOFFICE BEFORE THE TRADEMARK TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
JOINT REQUEST FOR ENTRY OF STIPULATIONS, SCHEDULE MODIFICATIONS, AND A PROTECTIVE ORDER On February 10, 2106 Energizer Brands, LLC and Batteroo, Inc.
"Batteroo, Inc. agrees to provide a sample of the product to be sold under the opposed marks after the product has been shipped to consumers.  Batteroo estimates that shipment will occur in March."

That's really interesting. It's one thing to dick around with the public and backers, it's another thing entirely to dick around with Energiser's lawyers.

Ok here is the really interesting part I just read buried in the document.....so there could be a problem if I'm understanding correctly

1.  The trademark dispute seems to be scheduled well into 2017

and

2. The amount of information batterizer and energiser seem to be looking into for discovery. "The parties agree to search E-mail and unstructured data (e.g., word processing documents, spreadsheets, presentation slides) of the individuals identified on their initial disclosures. ....shall include searches of shared drives, network storage, cloud storage, etc. (“Non-Local Data Storage”)...."

That can be a lot

and

3.   "Parties agree to initially limit e-discovery to the period of time most likely to contain the most relevant information to this dispute, 6 months prior to the first consideration of the BATTERISER and BATTERISE Marks [Date to be provided by Batteroo] to December 15, 2015"

BUT

"Parties further agree that ESI related to Batteroo’s technology embodied in the commercial products to be sold under the BATTERISER and BATTERISE Marks will be searched back to 6 months prior to the date of conception [date to be supplied by Batteroo] without the need for further negotiation.


So to me, it looks like if they do sell the product, then discovery goes way back.........

http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=86571464&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=statusSearch (http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=86571464&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=statusSearch)     Documents tab->Proceedings Documents->PAPER RECEIVED AT TTAB    on 2016-03-02

Have no idea if they agree to this, document seems to be before-signature and not a lawyer...but is interesting and I see nothing else

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on March 24, 2016, 05:48:22 am

EDIT:  My error reading the docs

(redacted)

 Oh to be a fly on the wall!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 24, 2016, 06:05:45 am

Quote from: SL4P on March 24, 2016, 05:48:22 am

I may be wrong, but following the timeline in that trademark schdule... it seems that Batteroo/Batteriser started the IGG campaign AFTER the initial trademark claims were lodged by Energiser - between March and June 2015.

The fact this action was not mentioned to potential IGG backers is 'interesting'.

It's also interesting that Energiser must have been 'looking' at Bob and family sometime prior to IGG for some reason.   Oh to be a fly on the wall!

Where do you see that? To me it looks like  2015-09-11 or  12/15/2015, both after IGG?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on March 24, 2016, 06:18:20 am

Sorry, you're correct... I misread one entry as bein an Energiser action, whereas it was in fact triggered by Batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on March 24, 2016, 08:28:39 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 23, 2016, 11:12:46 pm

It is not against the law to have a ridiculous idea you think might work, be technically wrong about the claims, ignore the experts (because you think you are the expert), be horribly inept at executing on it, and then still having hope when it all falls apart.

It's not illegal to be stupid but if there is malicious intent (mens rea) it would be illegal I suspect*. Might be difficult to prove which is which though, beyond reasonable doubt. (* I'm in no way a lawyer)

Quote

It's the reason they never shipped the media kits as promised. Once they ship a single unit the game is up.

I had forgotten about the media kits :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on March 24, 2016, 09:23:55 am

Don't forget, they're still selling a non existent product via their webpage..

Where people aren't just throwing money at an idea in the hope it goes in to production..

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on March 24, 2016, 09:31:36 am

Hi,

I stumbled across www.TradeMarkia.com (http://www.TradeMarkia.com). One of the sections that they have is Trademark Bullies. Here is the listing for Energizer:

http://www.trademarkia.com/opposition/bully-energizer?fn=energizer (http://www.trademarkia.com/opposition/bully-energizer?fn=energizer)

You can see that Energizer is contesting or has contested the following:

Energize America

Goingup - On the grounds that have used 'keeps going'

Batteriser

EnerStation

Luxury Energized - In the context of used automobile dealership

Dermal Energizer - Context spray bottles for use with personal care products in the nature of facial, body and hand sprays

Broadbeam - On the grounds that it is descriptive.

etc..


There is a massive list of Trademarks filed by Energizer:

http://www.trademarkia.com/trademarks-search.aspx?tn=Energizer (http://www.trademarkia.com/trademarks-search.aspx?tn=Energizer)

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 24, 2016, 11:30:29 am

Quote from: apis on March 24, 2016, 08:28:39 am

It's not illegal to be stupid but if there is malicious intent (mens rea) it would be illegal I suspect*. Might be difficult to prove which is which though, beyond reasonable doubt. (* I'm in no way a lawyer)

Impossible to prove unless it's admitted.
Not that anyone is ever going to take them to task legally for it anyway. They know that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on March 24, 2016, 12:16:01 pm

Sorry if this has been posted earlier but can't find it.

Unbelievable!  :o  :scared:  it looks like Batteroo has received an Excellence in Best Practices Awards on a gala.  |O

http://www.office365today.com/news/2016/03/16/8333008.htm (http://www.office365today.com/news/2016/03/16/8333008.htm)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on March 24, 2016, 12:31:06 pm

Yes, Frost and Sullivan is an awards-for-money company, kinda like those "Who's who" books.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on March 24, 2016, 12:38:35 pm

Yes it was pointed out a page or two back and if you Google F & S Bullshit there are a few good articles that give a clear indication of how they create their own award categories for particular clients for nothing more than a licence fee, also some very good insights from pissed off employees.

A clear example that anyone can walk into a trophy shop, make a purchase and then plonk it on their mantelpiece....... ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on March 24, 2016, 01:20:23 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on March 24, 2016, 12:16:01 pm

Sorry if this has been posted earlier but can't find it.

Unbelievable!  :o  :scared:  it looks like Batteroo has received an Excellence in Best Practices Awards on a gala.  |O

http://www.office365today.com/news/2016/03/16/8333008.htm (http://www.office365today.com/news/2016/03/16/8333008.htm)

The more intriguing thing is that company who won such crap award really love to show them. I remember the first company that I work for, when they won such an award, they proudly hang is on a wall to be saw by everyone, and I remember an internal email about it.

No one was dupe in the company, but meh, I never understood that concept (as for my colleagues)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on March 24, 2016, 02:30:34 pm

It is a self paid recognition for yourself price? That is sad, so sad, an indication on its own that something is not right so it seems.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: gore on March 24, 2016, 05:53:01 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on March 24, 2016, 09:23:55 am

Don't forget, they're still selling a non existent product via their webpage..

Where people aren't just throwing money at an idea in the hope it goes in to production..

I've wondered about that. If you exclude the indiegogo saga of crowdfunding, the batteriser website belongs to them and is on display, collecting money with no guarantees of delivery. Hell, even production is in question. How long can one keep it up.  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: chris_leyson on March 24, 2016, 06:13:44 pm

Only a week to go and we are into April. What are the odds on an "earthquake in Taiwan" excuse coming up pretty soon.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on March 24, 2016, 07:07:42 pm

More meaningless non-committal drivel.  Also, who are "they"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 24, 2016, 08:06:29 pm

Quote from: chris_leyson on March 24, 2016, 06:13:44 pm

Only a week to go and we are into April. What are the odds on an "earthquake in Taiwan" excuse coming up pretty soon.

My prediction/guess/whatever (speculation)..... the CM will 'unexpectedly' fail to meet the shipping date....but the last update transferred responsibility to the CM  as a result of batterers teams 'diligence'.... therefore, such an event wont be batterisers fault.... just some CM in some far off country.....

"two of our executive team members have been in China and Taiwan working very closely with our contract manufacturer these past few weeks. As a result of this productive collaboration and our team’s diligence, our Contract Manufacturer has confirmed their commitment to ship Batterisers this coming March."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 25, 2016, 01:23:45 am

(http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/pig-donkey-23140958.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on March 25, 2016, 04:54:02 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on March 23, 2016, 12:17:31 am

From an alleged Frost & Sullivan Roohparvar interview dated July 2015:
VS: What kind of customer feedback mechanism do you have in place to ensure that the product development and innovation matches market and customer needs?
  BR: From the start, Batteriser is committed to maintaining a strong online presence, which will allow for customers to contact us whenever they’d like. Consumers will be able to reach out to us through our web site, via e-mail, and via social media like Facebook and twitter.
  Further, one of the critical elements of our crowdfunding campaign is early shipping of product and direct feedback access to the Batteriser team, allowing for an active dialogue between our team and our early-adopters.
  As we enter broader distribution, we will continue to take consumer feedback very seriously, by scaling up our CRM tools to facilitate swift communication.

Time to scale up your CRM tools, Bob... [cricket noises]

The full article here: https://www.frost.com/sublib/display-market-insight.do?id=295404655 (https://www.frost.com/sublib/display-market-insight.do?id=295404655)

Allow me to translate:

"From the start, Batteriser is committed to maintaining a strong online presence..."
It's an online campaign started on an internet website.

"...which will allow for customers to contact us whenever they’d like. Consumers will be able to reach out to us through our web site, via e-mail, and via social media like Facebook and twitter."
Our customers can contact us whenever they like, but they aren't guaranteed a reply from us. In fact, they can reach out all they like, we probably won't read any of their correspondence. On the off-chance we do and we don't like what we read, we will continue maintaining our strong online presence by logging onto the internet and deleting their posts as we see fit.

"Further, one of the critical elements of our crowdfunding campaign is early shipping of product and direct feedback access to the Batteriser team, allowing for an active dialogue between our team and our early-adopters."
Our "product" is make-believe coupled with lies and vague "updates" (thus enhancing our "strong online presence"). We've used the internal code name of "project bullshit". We've been committed to shipping our product of 'bullshit' right from the start and will continue to honour that commitment. Oh, also, our "team" is just a couple of blokes, we just like to use the word "team" to make ourselves appear far bigger and more important than we actually are. Technically it fits the dictionary definition, check it with our legal team if you like.

"As we enter broader distribution, we will continue to take consumer feedback very seriously, by scaling up our CRM tools to facilitate swift communication."
As more people get the shits with us and we continue spreading bullshit, we are further enhancing our "strong online presence" by removing even more posts than we do now in a timelier fashion. Also, we've used all the money already to buy new toys for ourselves, faster internet connections and holidays to the beach.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 25, 2016, 07:27:41 am

Someone stated he was told shipping is now moved to late April
(http://i.imgur.com/ckTAMh7.png?1)

and

(http://i.imgur.com/8LU3Wfp.png?1)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 25, 2016, 09:09:44 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 24, 2016, 08:06:29 pm

My prediction/guess/whatever (speculation)..... the CM will 'unexpectedly' fail to meet the shipping date....but the last update transferred responsibility to the CM  as a result of batterers teams 'diligence'.... therefore, such an event wont be batterisers fault.... just some CM in some far off country.....
"two of our executive team members have been in China and Taiwan working very closely with our contract manufacturer these past few weeks. As a result of this productive collaboration and our team’s diligence, our Contract Manufacturer has confirmed their commitment to ship Batterisers this coming March."

That "their" immediately stood out when I read that. It was inserted very deliberately I'm sure.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 25, 2016, 09:25:53 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on March 24, 2016, 12:38:35 pm

Yes it was pointed out a page or two back and if you Google F & S Bullshit there are a few good articles that give a clear indication of how they create their own award categories for particular clients for nothing more than a licence fee, also some very good insights from pissed off employees.

First cabs off the rank:
http://ipvm.com/reports/should-you-trust-frost-&-sullivan-awards (http://ipvm.com/reports/should-you-trust-frost-&-sullivan-awards)
http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/frost-sullivan-c272270.html (http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/frost-sullivan-c272270.html)
https://billanddave.wordpress.com/2007/06/03/frost-sullivan-award/ (https://billanddave.wordpress.com/2007/06/03/frost-sullivan-award/)

Trigger warning:
http://ww2.frost.com/about/best-practices-recognition/impact/ (http://ww2.frost.com/about/best-practices-recognition/impact/)

Quote

Frost & Sullivan Best Practices Awards are independent, research backed accolades that identify the market's true leaders and innovators.

The Awards provide:

Independent Validation and Endorsement 
Augmented Branding
Bolstered Customer Outreach and Media Attention
Distinguished Recognition of Unique Products/Services in the Market
Validation of Employees' Accomplishments
Attractive Insights into the Award Recipient's Value to Customers, Investors, and Executive Talent

(http://i.imgur.com/KX5awiM.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 25, 2016, 09:37:58 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 25, 2016, 09:09:44 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 24, 2016, 08:06:29 pm

My prediction/guess/whatever (speculation)..... the CM will 'unexpectedly' fail to meet the shipping date....but the last update transferred responsibility to the CM  as a result of batterers teams 'diligence'.... therefore, such an event wont be batterisers fault.... just some CM in some far off country.....
"two of our executive team members have been in China and Taiwan working very closely with our contract manufacturer these past few weeks. As a result of this productive collaboration and our team’s diligence, our Contract Manufacturer has confirmed their commitment to ship Batterisers this coming March."

That "their" immediately stood out when I read that. It was inserted very deliberately I'm sure.

The teams 'diligence' part stood out to me as well ... 'due diligence' is part of US corporate law. Also, contracts you may sign with another party often state you need to do due diligence.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 25, 2016, 04:07:19 pm

I am assuming that Batteriser checks this forum from time to time, so:

Bob, It would really calm people down if you show evidence that you are doing something with their investment. A simple, quick, picture of the Batteriser on the production line would do you a world of good.



... and I'm sure I'm going to get some commentary from the locals....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on March 25, 2016, 05:05:03 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 04:07:19 pm

I am assuming that Batteriser checks this forum from time to time, so:

Bob, It would really calm people down if you show evidence that you are doing something with their investment. A simple, quick, picture of the Batteriser on the production line would do you a world of good.



... and I'm sure I'm going to get some commentary from the locals....

How does the hand up the bum feel?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on March 25, 2016, 05:06:19 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 04:07:19 pm

Bob, It would really calm people down if you show evidence that you are doing something with their investment. A simple, quick, picture of the Batteriser on the production line would do you a world of good.

Ummmm... that would require him to actually be doing something.

Which he isn't.

I don't know how many times this has to be pointed out to people, but: Batteroo aren't manufacturing anything and have no intention of manufacturing anything.

I mean: Why waste $100,000 (or whatever) on manufacturing something that will be the end of their little game. That would be stupid. I'm sure they'd prefer to spend that money on new suits and fancy lunches with potential victims^Winvestors.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 25, 2016, 05:21:51 pm

Quote from: SeanB on March 25, 2016, 05:05:03 pm

How does the hand up the bum feel?

What in the world does that mean?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 25, 2016, 05:25:32 pm

Quote from: Fungus on March 25, 2016, 05:06:19 pm

Ummmm... that would require him to actually be doing something.

Which he isn't.

I don't know how many times this has to be pointed out to people, but: Batteroo aren't manufacturing anything and have no intention of manufacturing anything.

I mean: Why waste $100,000 (or whatever) on manufacturing something that will be the end of their little game. That would be stupid. I'm sure they'd prefer to spend that money on new suits and fancy lunches with potential victims^Winvestors.

Yes, of course, I know, no kidding, duh. Thanks for spewing out what we all already know about Bob and Batterer.  Way to state the obvious.

I am just trying to be diplomatic with batteriser, perhaps to encourage them to calm people down without everyone else responding with the obvious which you were so quick to do.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on March 25, 2016, 05:27:22 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 05:25:32 pm

I am just trying to be diplomatic with batteriser

 :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 25, 2016, 05:29:14 pm

Quote from: Fungus on March 25, 2016, 05:27:22 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 05:25:32 pm

I am just trying to be diplomatic with batteriser

 :-//

Flys and honey

And sorry for being hostile to you, Fungus. I don't like Bob and Batteriser myself. I just am trying to come up with constructive ideas to get Batteriser to communicate without everyone immediately smacking them  down.

When I made my polite suggestion to Bob, I knew I would immediately get a "he won't" response from the forum.

Batteriser  communication has been getting worse and worse, as people's comments have been getting worse and worse. I wouldn't want to communicate with the contributors if every time I did, I got yelled at. Let's be positive constructive. Hopefully it will get positive results.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on March 25, 2016, 05:41:37 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 05:21:51 pm

Quote from: SeanB on March 25, 2016, 05:05:03 pm

How does the hand up the bum feel?

What in the world does that mean?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JisXVOsxzYg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JisXVOsxzYg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 25, 2016, 05:46:25 pm

Quote from: SeanB on March 25, 2016, 05:41:37 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 05:21:51 pm

Quote from: SeanB on March 25, 2016, 05:05:03 pm

How does the hand up the bum feel?

What in the world does that mean?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JisXVOsxzYg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JisXVOsxzYg)

Still a little too abstract.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 25, 2016, 05:51:40 pm

If you're suggesting that I am a Batteriser puppet, that's like Batteriser suggesting anyone who doesn't support them is in the pocket of "Big Battery"

It's a safe and easy disparagement without any basis.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on March 25, 2016, 06:22:27 pm

 :clap:  :clap:  :clap:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 25, 2016, 06:34:54 pm

Quote from: SeanB on March 25, 2016, 06:22:27 pm

:clap:  :clap:  :clap:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=py37IFuKxYw#t=5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=py37IFuKxYw#t=5)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 25, 2016, 06:39:27 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on March 25, 2016, 06:32:18 pm

This tread is turning into a anal discussion on so many levels!   :palm:

I am sincerely trying not to be like that. I've been trying --mostly-- to be polite, level-headed, and positive, but keep getting negative  and low-brow responses.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on March 25, 2016, 06:42:25 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 06:34:54 pm

Quote from: SeanB on March 25, 2016, 06:22:27 pm

:clap:  :clap:  :clap:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=py37IFuKxYw#t=5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=py37IFuKxYw#t=5)

Thank you, will watch the whole thing later.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on March 25, 2016, 06:46:32 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 06:39:27 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on March 25, 2016, 06:32:18 pm

This tread is turning into a anal discussion on so many levels!   :palm:

I am sincerely trying not to be like that. I've been trying --mostly-- to be polite, level-headed, and positive, but keep getting negative  and low-brow responses.

Joined 20 March 2016, 23 posts all in the same thread. Don't know any further info, but this smells slightly like you are either a social network manager or a similar functionary.......

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 25, 2016, 06:52:37 pm

Joined 20 March 2016, 23 posts all in the same thread. Don't know any further info, but this smells slightly like you are either a social network manager or a similar functionary.......


Very true, and I can see how you would think that.  My name is Ainsworth Kohler, and I live in Blue Hill, Maine. Feel free to look me up.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 25, 2016, 07:56:07 pm

Let's assume --operative word-- that Batteroo is manufacturing the Batteriser in good faith.

Anyone in manufacturing knows that random BS happens that causes delays, and you can't always share the details.

Batterier says "Sorry, but ...": people understandably freak out a bit....; "Sorry, again, but...": people understandably freak out more...; "Sorry, yet again, but...": people absolutely (and understandably) lose it.

Batteriser communication has started out bad, and has been progressively been getting worse, as commenters have been getting worse. It's been cyclic. Who wants to post any new information when all that does is cause people to go nuts?

I believe that the Batterier is a product that will be great for an 80's remote control. That's about it. I believe that Batteroo has been sleazy in their marketing.

I have been independently following this Batteroo freakshow in parallel with this forum. I share most of the same opinions as most here.

My only motivation is to find some constructive way to encourage Bob to restart communication with his Indiegogo contributors. Almost all batteriser-related commentary is on the Indegogo forum and this one. I didn't contribute to the campaign, so this forum is my only means of encouraging people to help.

I am really doing this for the Indiegogo contributors, individuals who contributed $400k. I am just asking we try. I have the same opinions as you do about Bob, but let's try. It may do no good, but let's try.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on March 25, 2016, 08:21:58 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 05:51:40 pm

If you're suggesting that I am a Batteriser puppet, that's like Batteriser suggesting anyone who doesn't support them is in the pocket of "Big Battery"

It's a safe and easy disparagement without any basis.

At the time of writing you have 25 posts in total, all on the subject of Batteriser with no posts in any other areas of the forum on any other subjects, and a recently registered account (20th March). It's easy to see why someone might be suspicious of an account with a profile like that in the context.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 25, 2016, 09:11:21 pm

Batteroo puppets have been caught before  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 25, 2016, 09:31:43 pm

Quote from: Cerebus on March 25, 2016, 08:21:58 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 05:51:40 pm

If you're suggesting that I am a Batteriser puppet, that's like Batteriser suggesting anyone who doesn't support them is in the pocket of "Big Battery"

It's a safe and easy disparagement without any basis.

At the time of writing you have 25 posts in total, all on the subject of Batteriser with no posts in any other areas of the forum on any other subjects, and a recently registered account (20th March). It's easy to see why someone might be suspicious of an account with a profile like that in the context.

I completely understand that reasoning. That's why I declared who I am, so anyone can look me up. I'm not advocating Batteroo, Bob, or the Batteriser in anyway. I'm just encouraging that we do what we can to help the Indiegogo contributors since the people in this forum has done the most research on the subject.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 25, 2016, 09:34:38 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on March 25, 2016, 08:06:42 pm

Comunicate with a liear?   |O

 Your better of trying to Comunicate intelectualy with Donald Trump!

I agree, but I want us to try anyway.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Simon on March 25, 2016, 10:12:31 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 07:56:07 pm

Let's assume --operative word-- that Batteroo is manufacturing the Batteriser in good faith.

Anyone in manufacturing knows that random BS happens that causes delays, and you can't always share the details.

they can't even get the maths in their spin right, they are con artists end of! Anyone who can't see the fifferent between 800% and 80% more can't be capable of designing what they claim to have designed. The only product i have come across that would benefot from a baterrizer is a peice of crap off ebay that I should never have bought!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 25, 2016, 10:12:47 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 07:56:07 pm

My only motivation is to find some constructive way to encourage Bob to restart communication with his Indiegogo contributors. Almost all batteriser-related commentary is on the Indegogo forum and this one. I didn't contribute to the campaign, so this forum is my only means of encouraging people to help.

You don't get it.
It's clear that Bob doesn't want to communicate.
Mostly they communicate through their Facebook page, whoever actually runs that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 25, 2016, 10:14:41 pm

Quote from: Simon on March 25, 2016, 10:12:31 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 07:56:07 pm

Let's assume --operative word-- that Batteroo is manufacturing the Batteriser in good faith.

Anyone in manufacturing knows that random BS happens that causes delays, and you can't always share the details.

they can't even get the maths in their spin right, they are con artists end of! Anyone who can't see the fifferent between 800% and 80% more can't be capable of designing what they claim to have designed. The only product i have come across that would benefot from a baterrizer is a peice of crap off ebay that I should never have bought!

Hence the word -> assume <- (i.e. pretend for arguement's sake) I'm not saying that product works. I'm saying let's pretend that they are actually making them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Simon on March 25, 2016, 10:16:33 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 10:14:41 pm

Quote from: Simon on March 25, 2016, 10:12:31 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 07:56:07 pm

Let's assume --operative word-- that Batteroo is manufacturing the Batteriser in good faith.

Anyone in manufacturing knows that random BS happens that causes delays, and you can't always share the details.

they can't even get the maths in their spin right, they are con artists end of! Anyone who can't see the fifferent between 800% and 80% more can't be capable of designing what they claim to have designed. The only product i have come across that would benefot from a baterrizer is a peice of crap off ebay that I should never have bought!

Hence the word -> assume <- (i.e. pretend for arguement's sake) I'm not saying that product works. I'm saying let's pretend that they are actually making them.

They should have found their mistakes at prototype stage, no need to further publicize the product, just take it as learning experience. I expect they used their backers money to pay PC world to publish a foney article about how they had been broken into by people searching for the secrets to their ground breaking technology - give me a fucking break!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 25, 2016, 10:17:17 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 09:31:43 pm

I'm just encouraging that we do what we can to help the Indiegogo contributors since the people in this forum has done the most research on the subject.

People have been trying to do this in various ways for this entire thread since it started.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 25, 2016, 10:18:39 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 10:14:41 pm

Hence the word -> assume <- (i.e. pretend for arguement's sake) I'm not saying that product works. I'm saying let's pretend that they are actually making them.

We've done that, countless times.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 25, 2016, 10:25:24 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on March 25, 2016, 10:21:42 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on March 25, 2016, 10:17:17 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 09:31:43 pm

I'm just encouraging that we do what we can to help the Indiegogo contributors since the people in this forum has done the most research on the subject.

People have been trying to do this in various ways for this entire thread since it started.

What could Bob have to say to this forum? NOTHING!
He would be just making a fool of himself! That's why he dont show up here.

Agreed, but that's not what I'm suggesting. I'm looking for a proxy, someone here who has contributed to the Batteriser Indiegogo campain, that can post there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 25, 2016, 10:31:35 pm

Alright.

It's me having an argument with 20 people at once, and nothing I say is getting anywhere.

Let's resume the Batteriser-bashing, and dig up all the dirt we can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAB858elJOw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAB858elJOw)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 25, 2016, 10:39:25 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 05:51:40 pm

If you're suggesting that I am a Batteriser puppet, that's like Batteriser suggesting anyone who doesn't support them is in the pocket of "Big Battery"
It's a safe and easy disparagement without any basis.

Batteriser have been caught on this forum before with an anonymous sockpuppet account, even though they have been invited to officially join and discuss.
So when someone comes on this forum and post only in the Batteriser thread in defense of the product, it's something people might naturally assume.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 25, 2016, 10:41:29 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 10:25:24 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on March 25, 2016, 10:21:42 pm

What could Bob have to say to this forum? NOTHING!
He would be just making a fool of himself! That's why he dont show up here.

Agreed, but that's not what I'm suggesting. I'm looking for a proxy, someone here who has contributed to the Batteriser Indiegogo campain, that can post there.

Countless people have done that. Mostly their comments on IGG get deleted when they try and raise any issues.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 25, 2016, 10:45:55 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 04:07:19 pm

I am assuming that Batteriser checks this forum from time to time, so:
Bob, It would really calm people down if you show evidence that you are doing something with their investment. A simple, quick, picture of the Batteriser on the production line would do you a world of good.
... and I'm sure I'm going to get some commentary from the locals....

Batteriser do indeed read this forum.
And we have asked this of them countless times. They never provide any response at all, either here, or elsewhere.
Our questions always go unanswered. Perhaps now you can understand why this thread has taken on a life of it's own, it's because Batteriser do not want to play.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 25, 2016, 10:48:29 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on March 25, 2016, 10:41:29 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 10:25:24 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on March 25, 2016, 10:21:42 pm

What could Bob have to say to this forum? NOTHING!
He would be just making a fool of himself! That's why he dont show up here.

Agreed, but that's not what I'm suggesting. I'm looking for a proxy, someone here who has contributed to the Batteriser Indiegogo campain, that can post there.

Countless people have done that. Mostly their comments on IGG get deleted when they try and raise any issues.

Thanks for the feedback. but nevermind. I was hoping that positive and constructive communication in indiegogo forum would encourage batteriser to communicate better. I still think I have a good idea, but I'm not going to argue it anymore.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 25, 2016, 11:14:42 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 10:48:29 pm

Thanks for the feedback. but nevermind. I was hoping that positive and constructive communication in indiegogo forum would encourage batteriser to communicate better.

Unfortunately it doesn't work.
We are not a forum full of haters, we genuinely want Batteriser to answer all the technical and campaign questions we have. But they have done nothing but call us everything under the sun. And Bob has even personally accused me in a national newspaper of being a paid shill of "big battery"  ::)
If you have been following this form the beginning you would know every back-peddle they have done, every false claim they have retracted or changed, every accusation they have made against me and others, every time they have distorted facts, the threats, the paid dislike campaigns, the weird associations with their social media pages, and the list goes on. All the time providing literally zero real communications with the community after countless requests that have been so thoroughly ignored, it's no wonder why hardly anyone bothers any more except to make jokes about them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on March 25, 2016, 11:18:58 pm

Quote from: akohler

.... but I'm not going to argue it anymore. 

GOOD, we live in hope :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 25, 2016, 11:32:49 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on March 25, 2016, 11:14:42 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 10:48:29 pm

Thanks for the feedback. but nevermind. I was hoping that positive and constructive communication in indiegogo forum would encourage batteriser to communicate better.

Unfortunately it doesn't work.
We are not a forum full of haters, we genuinely want Batteriser to answer all the technical and campaign questions we have. But they have done nothing but call us everything under the sun. And Bob has even personally accused me in a national newspaper of being a paid shill of "big battery"  ::)
If you have been following this form the beginning you would know every back-peddle they have done, every false claim they have retracted or changed, every accusation they have made against me and others, every time they have distorted facts, the threats, the paid dislike campaigns, the weird associations with their social media pages, and the list goes on. All the time providing literally zero real communications with the community after countless requests that have been so thoroughly ignored, it's no wonder why hardly anyone bothers any more except to make jokes about them.

I've been intently following Batteriser since September. My girlfriend (who totally exists) is tired of hearing about it. I truly get everyones' argument, and understand eneryones' feelings.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on March 25, 2016, 11:56:16 pm

The first animated video linked below is a fine example that they have no clue in addition to no solution to a problem that they themselves created, whether it’s a work in progress or an abandoned project the outcome for all concerned is the same, no practical beneficial product.

The second video is just more marketing drivel but granted it is new which is something we haven’t seen for a while.

Our hero with a pouch, Rooh..... :palm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lReSYcUKhPM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lReSYcUKhPM)

More of the same garbage..... :palm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFpy99Pts3c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFpy99Pts3c)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 26, 2016, 12:01:04 am

Those cartoon videos,  :wtf:
Who made those?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 26, 2016, 12:01:13 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on March 25, 2016, 11:56:16 pm

More of the same garbage..... :palm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFpy99Pts3c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFpy99Pts3c)

I would totally sex that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on March 26, 2016, 12:28:08 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 26, 2016, 12:01:04 am

Those cartoon videos,  :wtf:
Who made those?

It wasn't me, I only found the silly thing's, blame and shame somebody else.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 26, 2016, 12:44:10 am

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 11:32:49 pm

I truly get everyones' argument, and understand eneryones' feelings.

Then why persist?

Every scrap of hard evidence demonstrates that Batteroo does not and does not intend to have a product to bring to market.  IF they did, then they would have been far more communicative with details irrespective of how fired up everyone got.  They shouldn't need to be asked to provide updates.  As well as being a fundamental responsibility to their supporters, it's a basic courtesy.  Honest businesses must be able to cope with emotional outbursts and look after their customers with professionalism.  That word seems to be missing from Bob's lexicon.

Many people have tried MANY times to get a constructive response from Batteroo, by all manner of methods - including the open, non-threatening invitation.  If you've read through this thread, you will have seen that, but there have been other approaches as well.  You also are somewhat presumptuous by taking a position that indicates you (a) have not fully (or even partially) appreciated the efforts others have made and (b) have not considered the length of time over which these efforts have been made.

From the outset, Batteroo have been very careful in what has been said - and very silent on a lot of details that are somewhat pertinent.  This behaviour begs the question: WHY?


Why do you think you are going to be successful in getting Batteroo to start communicating properly?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheDirty on March 26, 2016, 12:46:57 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 26, 2016, 12:01:04 am

Those cartoon videos,  :wtf:
Who made those?

I found those a while ago.  Made by a small firm that does app development.  They have a few 'samples', which I think are more test runs to try and sell their advertising.  I'm not certain Batteroo had anything to do with them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 26, 2016, 12:57:51 am

Quote from: Brumby link=topic=48950.msg904088#msg904088

Then why persist?

I stopped persisting.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on March 26, 2016, 01:13:37 am

Quote from: TheDirty on March 26, 2016, 12:46:57 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 26, 2016, 12:01:04 am

Those cartoon videos,  :wtf:
Who made those?

I found those a while ago.  Made by a small firm that does app development.  They have a few 'samples', which I think are more test runs to try and sell their advertising.  I'm not certain Batteroo had anything to do with them.

This appears to be the case, mind you they are recent uploads, looks like we did the mob a favour.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on March 26, 2016, 03:12:35 am

What about this idea, outside the box, but hey...

Batteroo use their connections to deliver backers a different product, say a few high capacity USB flash drives, roughly of the same value that of the Batteriser people bought.

They say something along the lines of, "Batteriser is facing some large delays due to 'x', we'd like to offer our backers some high capacity USB flash drive in place of the Batteriser. Please let us know if you want the drives in place of the Batteriser. The Batteriser project is expecting delays of up to 12 months, you can wait, or take the flash drive(s) now."

Saves face (kinda) and gets the angry people out of the way. Sure USB drives are not Batterisers, but knowing what we know, who'd even want them apart for testing and to make fun of them?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 26, 2016, 03:40:26 am

I wouldn't hold my breath for any such 'peace offering'.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on March 26, 2016, 04:39:35 am

'It provides seed funding up to $1 million in the form of a promissory note. SKTA Innopartners LLC is based in Sunnyvale, California.'

Promissory notes usually come with lots of strings attached.
It is not certain that SKTA parted with any money yet.

http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=242028870 (http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=242028870)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on March 26, 2016, 05:17:53 am

Quote from: digsys on Today at 10:18:58 AM (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=48950.msg904021#msg904021)

Quote from: akohler

.... but I'm not going to argue it anymore. 

GOOD, we live in hope :-)

https://youtu.be/dm9_H7GCxlg (https://youtu.be/dm9_H7GCxlg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on March 26, 2016, 05:24:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on Today at 11:01:04 AM (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=48950.msg904052#msg904052)

Those cartoon videos,  :wtf:
Who made those?

Come on now, those cartoon vids are as classy, informed, and scientifically based as this classic:
https://youtu.be/brdmnUBAS00 (https://youtu.be/brdmnUBAS00)

(I've linked to that video before, but it's so good it bears repeating, IMO)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on March 26, 2016, 06:03:51 am

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on March 25, 2016, 06:32:18 pm

This tread is turning into a anal discussion on so many levels!   :palm:

We need to probe the reason.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on March 26, 2016, 06:04:45 am

5000 did i make it

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on March 26, 2016, 06:06:11 am

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on March 25, 2016, 08:06:42 pm

Comunicate with a liear?   |O

 You're better of trying to Comunicate intelectualy with Donald Trump!

Whoaa!  That's taking it down a whole 'nother level...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on March 26, 2016, 06:10:16 am

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 10:25:24 pm

Agreed, but that's not what I'm suggesting. I'm looking for a proxy, someone here who has contributed to the Batteriser Indiegogo campain, that can post there.

AYFK?  There have been several EEVblog members, with multiple posts to IGG - and their questioning, or critical post have been deleted by the IGG campaign moderators.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 26, 2016, 06:35:07 am

Quote from: samgab on March 26, 2016, 05:24:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on Today at 11:01:04 AM (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=48950.msg904052#msg904052)

Those cartoon videos,  :wtf:
Who made those?

Come on now, those cartoon vids are as classy, informed, and scientifically based as this classic:
https://youtu.be/brdmnUBAS00 (https://youtu.be/brdmnUBAS00)

(I've linked to that video before, but it's so good it bears repeating, IMO)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/Smileys/default/smiley_laughing.gif)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on March 26, 2016, 08:15:39 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on March 25, 2016, 11:56:16 pm

More of the same garbage..... :palm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFpy99Pts3c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFpy99Pts3c)

Oddly - that (second) video is entirely misleading in itself - as it shows the actual battery charge increasing. (green bars)...   The depiction should have shown the device showing higher perceived charge level - if anything at all.

OK, I guess the producers were working on a brief from Batteroo - and we know they clearly don't know how their proposed device works.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Simon on March 26, 2016, 09:49:37 am

Quote from: samgab on March 26, 2016, 05:24:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on Today at 11:01:04 AM (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=48950.msg904052#msg904052)

Those cartoon videos,  :wtf:
Who made those?

Come on now, those cartoon vids are as classy, informed, and scientifically based as this classic:
https://youtu.be/brdmnUBAS00 (https://youtu.be/brdmnUBAS00)

(I've linked to that video before, but it's so good it bears repeating, IMO)

 :-DD :-DD :-DD He almost kept a straight face right to the end  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on March 26, 2016, 02:56:07 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 06:39:27 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on March 25, 2016, 06:32:18 pm

This tread is turning into a anal discussion on so many levels!   :palm:

I am sincerely trying not to be like that. I've been trying --mostly-- to be polite, level-headed, and positive, but keep getting negative  and low-brow responses.

That can happen when you barge into a discussion and berate people for not trying something they have already tried.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 26, 2016, 03:09:27 pm

Quote from: Nerull on March 26, 2016, 02:56:07 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 06:39:27 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on March 25, 2016, 06:32:18 pm

This tread is turning into a anal discussion on so many levels!   :palm:

I am sincerely trying not to be like that. I've been trying --mostly-- to be polite, level-headed, and positive, but keep getting negative  and low-brow responses.

That can happen when you barge into a discussion and berate people for not trying something they have already tried.

I really wasn't berating anyone.

Correction:
I did berate those who did get a little hostile towards me.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on March 26, 2016, 03:19:13 pm

Quote from: Nerull on March 26, 2016, 02:56:07 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 06:39:27 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on March 25, 2016, 06:32:18 pm

This tread is turning into a anal discussion on so many levels!   :palm:

I am sincerely trying not to be like that. I've been trying --mostly-- to be polite, level-headed, and positive, but keep getting negative  and low-brow responses.

That can happen when you barge into a discussion and berate people for not trying something they have already tried.

Apologize in advance for the meta discussion, but I feel I have to step in here...

I don't believe he "barged" in and "berated" people.  He simply came in, posted a comment directed towards Bob & Co, figuring they would read it, and then all holy hell rained down from the masses accusing him of everything up to and including being a Batteroo shill.   If you think his defending his post is "berating", everyone needs to take a step back and see how they have possibly overreacted to what at worst is a naive (and albeit already tried) suggestion and check the tone of their own messages.  I've seen this group pounce on several people before...some were justified like Davey Jonez...but other times it's like a Lord of the Flies like thing, and sorry, but sometimes you're just too quick to rush to judgement (e.g. the reporter lady that everyone thought was going to trash Dave, but ended up trashing Batteroo after all).

I suppose I'll take heat for this as well because I've primarily (maybe even only) posted in this forum, despite the fact that I've watched all of Dave's videos and am a true fan.  I just don't have the time (or in a lot of cases knowledge) to participate in other discussions, and this (and a couple of other) thread is my sole exception.  However, I felt I had to step in and stand up for a guy who I really think is well intentioned and is somehow getting trashed for it!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 26, 2016, 03:27:01 pm

Quote from: lpickup on March 26, 2016, 03:19:13 pm

Quote from: Nerull on March 26, 2016, 02:56:07 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 06:39:27 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on March 25, 2016, 06:32:18 pm

This tread is turning into a anal discussion on so many levels!   :palm:

I am sincerely trying not to be like that. I've been trying --mostly-- to be polite, level-headed, and positive, but keep getting negative  and low-brow responses.

That can happen when you barge into a discussion and berate people for not trying something they have already tried.

Apologize in advance for the meta discussion, [...]

I appreciate that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Zbig on March 26, 2016, 03:31:04 pm

Quote from: lpickup on March 26, 2016, 03:19:13 pm

Quote from: Nerull on March 26, 2016, 02:56:07 pm

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 06:39:27 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on March 25, 2016, 06:32:18 pm

This tread is turning into a anal discussion on so many levels!   :palm:

I am sincerely trying not to be like that. I've been trying --mostly-- to be polite, level-headed, and positive, but keep getting negative  and low-brow responses.

That can happen when you barge into a discussion and berate people for not trying something they have already tried.

Apologize in advance for the meta discussion, but I feel I have to step in here...

I don't believe he "barged" in and "berated" people.  [..]

(http://i.imgur.com/w8MdRef.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on March 26, 2016, 03:34:29 pm

Damn. Homer has really changed throughout the years.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on March 26, 2016, 08:17:35 pm

Quote from: Brumby on March 26, 2016, 06:35:07 am

Quote from: samgab on March 26, 2016, 05:24:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on Today at 11:01:04 AM (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=48950.msg904052#msg904052)

Those cartoon videos,  :wtf:
Who made those?

Come on now, those cartoon vids are as classy, informed, and scientifically based as this classic:
https://youtu.be/brdmnUBAS00 (https://youtu.be/brdmnUBAS00)

(I've linked to that video before, but it's so good it bears repeating, IMO)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/Smileys/default/smiley_laughing.gif)

This is called "electrical tape" because it conduct electricity?


WHAT? :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on March 27, 2016, 12:40:39 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on March 02, 2016, 02:29:43 am

everyone including the family dog and the goldfish gets named as a plaintiff.

What about the monkey?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 27, 2016, 01:45:03 am

Quote from: lpickup on March 26, 2016, 03:19:13 pm

I don't believe he "barged" in and "berated" people.  He simply came in, posted a comment directed towards Bob & Co, figuring they would read it, and then all holy hell rained down from the masses accusing him of everything up to and including being a Batteroo shill.   If you think his defending his post is "berating", everyone needs to take a step back and see how they have possibly overreacted to what at worst is a naive (and albeit already tried) suggestion and check the tone of their own messages.

The issue is not so much one of someone posting a suggestion that has been tried before (however a bit of reading of the thread before doing so would have made it obvious) - but that, when advised their idea has been tried on more than one occasion in a variety of ways and by various people, they continue to defend and justify themselves.  Such a response is very often seen being presented by puppets of the malefactor, since they press the matter well past the point where logic indicates retiring from the debate.


While pre-reading was the appropriate preparation before posting, when the history was explained, the correct response would have been a simple apology.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 27, 2016, 02:13:43 am

Actually, if the pre-reading was too much, a better approach would have been to ask the question: "Has this been tried?"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2016, 08:01:27 am

So last update was now 2 months ago.
And it was 11 days ago when Bob said there would be an update "Within a few days".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on March 27, 2016, 09:54:08 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 27, 2016, 08:01:27 am

So last update was now 2 months ago.
And it was 11 days ago when Bob said there would be an update "Within a few days".

They don't seem to get the message really do they ?.

Perhaps that may change once they realise that some pissed off people are starting to put up videos in relation to the lack of communication and more importantly a product.

Text only video #1.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYU2xxvEgaM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYU2xxvEgaM)

Text only video #2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvb88TETAQ8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvb88TETAQ8)

It's not me, just some random finds.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on March 27, 2016, 04:19:28 pm

I'm naively hoping Indiegogo finally decided to cancel Bateroos ability to delete comments, we'll see...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 27, 2016, 04:27:50 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on March 27, 2016, 08:01:27 am

So last update was now 2 months ago.
And it was 11 days ago when Bob said there would be an update "Within a few days".

Bob Roohparvar stated "next week or so" for an update 27 days ago (frame #5)......
He went silent on IGG 11 days ago promising again an update "within a few days" (last frame)

(http://i.imgur.com/1CZJ1Uk.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on March 27, 2016, 04:40:42 pm

 Note also they said they would ship in March, and in that one reply Bob slipped in "ship in late April" IF Bob even bothers to offeres any more information, any bets on if they change again and say it will be available in May?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on March 27, 2016, 10:02:37 pm

Late April is 5 weeks away which seems a long time. I have an open question for those with large scale production experience - if they were tooled-up and ready to press 'Go' on production how long would a run of 100k batterisers likely take?  I'm guessing no more than a few days, but my guessed assumptions were:

200 boards per panel with one new panel rolling out every 2 minutes.  < 17 hours for 100k
Metalwork stamped from reel of steel at 1 per second. < 28 hours for 100k
Hand assemble board to metalwork? Maybe 20 per minute for single worker? < 84 hours for 100k
Apply prominent QC passed sticker and place in presentation case < 28 hours

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on March 27, 2016, 10:08:00 pm

It depends what your supply per day goal is after ramp-up. Any production step can be paralleled, so almost any quantity is possible. If they really intended to storm Walmart and Co. with these, then they may have planned to produce more?

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on March 28, 2016, 02:14:21 am

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 05:29:14 pm

And sorry for being hostile to you, Fungus.

Don't ever be sorry for doing that.

(not that I'd even noticed)

Quote from: akohler on March 25, 2016, 07:56:07 pm

My only motivation is to find some constructive way to encourage Bob to restart communication with his Indiegogo contributors. Almost all batteriser-related commentary is on the Indegogo forum and this one. I didn't contribute to the campaign, so this forum is my only means of encouraging people to help.

What can he communicate?

"Sorry, guys, the whole thing is a scam..."

If you're not seeing that then you didn't look at the evidence very closely. Start with the "Garmin GPS" video, that's been thoroughly debunked (and their follow-up video to try and explain it was a complete joke).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on March 28, 2016, 08:40:42 pm

Quote from: McBryce on March 27, 2016, 10:08:00 pm

It depends what your supply per day goal is after ramp-up. Any production step can be paralleled, so almost any quantity is possible. If they really intended to storm Walmart and Co. with these, then they may have planned to produce more?

Any Walmart plans probably went south a long time ago.

I assumed no parallelism to establish an upper bound on duration for 100k assuming the line wasn't stalled. If 100k units get shipped to backers that would give the earliest date production really started. They did promise to air freight the Kickstarter units at great expense to themselves, so they will not be any shipping delays to account for as we have Bob's word on that.

Even if they don't ship, I'm also genuinely curious in learning more about larger scale production hence the thought experiment.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on March 28, 2016, 08:51:10 pm

I doubt they could build 100k parts without taking a serious financial hit. They have only two choices, mass production (and sales) or nothing, and the first choice doesn't really stand a serious chance at this stage. I assume they know this though.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on March 28, 2016, 08:53:13 pm

From what I have seen online of Chinese production processes the 100k will take around 2 weeks from initial start to finished product ready to leave in containers, though you will get an initial start of the rollout after day 2, when the first boards arrive from the PCB fab, the first steel is punched and painted, and the assembly line starts up to run the order. One line in a factory with 50 others, and working the whole day before going home to the dormitory to sleep. Not Foxconn, but one of the myriad other white goods assembly plants. So after a week you would be at the 50k mark, and at the end of the second week you could have a trained staff who will probably be able to do 60k per week on the single line.

Not going to be a likely scenario though. If there was a product there would have been sampling already of the finished part, or at least a  few engineering prototypes that are either fit models that do not work, or engineering models which are larger to get final design and layout correct, then a second run of engineering samples that are both functional and dimensionally correct, so they can do final QC specifications and product assembly runs with. They have nothing so far aside from the monkey.........

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on March 28, 2016, 09:30:44 pm

Quote from: SeanB on March 28, 2016, 08:53:13 pm

and working the whole day before going home to the dormitory to sleep. Not Foxconn, but one of the myriad other white goods assembly plants.

Sleep? Wasted floor space using dormitory's? Thankfully Bob doesn't actually have a real product, because I am pretty sure he would otherwise insist on all factory labour using some of those cheap "legal high" stimulants that are flooding out of China right now, just to keep the staff at their soldering stations 24/7. I mean if Apple get away with the Foxconn stuff then Batteroo can easily go a couple of magnitudes worse.

Luckily for Chinese workers there is no such product being forced on them. Perhaps North Korea has some prison labour camps that Bob would be interested in if he ever comes up with the goods. After all, he can then blame Obamas espionage against DPRK when they don't work.  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 28, 2016, 11:44:10 pm

More restless natives, I think it's now officially a flood.
Nothing Batteroo can say now will stop the lynching.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on March 29, 2016, 12:28:40 am

As much as Roohparvar is ignoring everyone's questions, something tells me we haven't seen the last of 'Batteriser' just yet. What's the bet that one day they pull the pin and actually admit to everyone that their project failed due to "unforeseen technical problems" or some other bollocks (which forum members and Dave have been saying all along) and as a "gesture of good faith" ship out a Batteriser sleeve (albeit without any electronics) in the form of a poxy tie clip or something so they can honestly say they delivered "something" despite their original product being a total and utter failure from the start.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 29, 2016, 12:35:17 am

An out and out admission is unlikely, IMHO, but I could be wrong.  I could also win the lottery.

I strongly suspect that the Batteroo desire will be that things go 'quietly into the night'.  But if there was any farewell speech, it would be to blame 'other factors' ... and those will be vague enough to be difficult to challenge.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on March 29, 2016, 01:13:46 am

There'll be enough unhappy "investors" to keep beating this dead cat for a looong time to come yet !! :-)
It's mouse hunting days are gone :-) It's make a cool Monty Python skit though.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on March 29, 2016, 03:41:30 am

Hi,

No evidence, just a gut a feeling, I suspect that they haven't got a chip yet. It would be pretty hard to design a chip that would work at low voltage and deliver the necessary current efficiently. I can't see any of the major chip companies wanting to touch this opportunity, for the simple reason is there is no market. It makes much more sense to regulate the voltage of all the cells in series, instead of each individual cell.

If you read a few datasheets, you will see that all of these single alkaline cell, boost converters have a minimum output voltage. This is because they run the error amp and the reference from the output. On the best chips the minimum Vout is around 1.5V on some of the less sophisticated up to 2.5V.

There is a quiescent current requirement for this application of around 40uA. If the quiescent current is much higher it will shorten the battery life for low drain devices.


It is very strange that after policing the IGG comments for months and deleting anything that they didn't like, they should suddenly stop. It is like Bob is place where there is no internet connection.

It will be interesting how this ends..

It will be so disappointing if it just fades away. I was a least expecting a device that will work with low to moderate current devices. I know that this can be done in the available space, I have built one.(AA size)

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on March 29, 2016, 03:52:47 am

At the end of the day, if manufacturers would be able to work a small boost converter into their batteries and have it work like Batteriser claim, (albeit at the expense of some room ordinarily taken up by the battery chemistry itself) you'd think they'd have already developed such a product. A longer lasting Alkaline battery, in the same standard form factor, with less chemicals? The battery manufacturers would be all over it by now.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on March 29, 2016, 03:53:49 am

Hi,

Here are the latest comments:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=212836;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=212838;image)


I have awarded Will K a Frosty and Shanky for the 'Efficient communication related to an alkaline battery non-product'. I have to be specific, because I have many similar awards to give out. There are no losers at Frosty and Shanky, everybody gets an award. You can only tell people about if you pay the fee.

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on March 29, 2016, 07:21:40 am

Quote from: Halcyon on March 29, 2016, 03:52:47 am

At the end of the day, if manufacturers would be able to work a small boost converter into their batteries and have it work like Batteriser claim, (albeit at the expense of some room ordinarily taken up by the battery chemistry itself) you'd think they'd have already developed such a product. A longer lasting Alkaline battery, in the same standard form factor, with less chemicals? The battery manufacturers would be all over it by now.

Are you kidding? A battery costs less then $0,10 to manufacture, it sells for 10 times the cost and the sooner a consumer replaces a battery the more they sell.
After use they are disposed.
First of all it would make the product too expensive
Second they will sell less batteries.
Third the expensive electronics will be discarded after use, it makes no sense.

The last thing a battery producer will ever do is built an internal batteriser.
What they could do is build an external batteriser that will 24/7 drain the battery so it lasts shorter  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on March 29, 2016, 08:05:06 am

Quote from: McBryce on March 28, 2016, 08:51:10 pm

I doubt they could build 100k parts without taking a serious financial hit. They have only two choices, mass production (and sales) or nothing, and the first choice doesn't really stand a serious chance at this stage. I assume they know this though.

It would be suicide to ship something that:
a) Doesn't work (this is a given)
b) Is childishly simple to test (one clock, two sets of batteries)
c) Has an army of bloggers waiting to tear it to pieces online.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on March 29, 2016, 08:25:00 am

Quote from: Kjelt on March 29, 2016, 07:21:40 am

Quote from: Halcyon on March 29, 2016, 03:52:47 am

At the end of the day, if manufacturers would be able to work a small boost converter into their batteries and have it work like Batteriser claim, (albeit at the expense of some room ordinarily taken up by the battery chemistry itself) you'd think they'd have already developed such a product. A longer lasting Alkaline battery, in the same standard form factor, with less chemicals? The battery manufacturers would be all over it by now.

Are you kidding? A battery costs less then $0,10 to manufacture, it sells for 10 times the cost and the sooner a consumer replaces a battery the more they sell.
After use they are disposed.
First of all it would make the product too expensive
Second they will sell less batteries.
Third the expensive electronics will be discarded after use, it makes no sense.

The last thing a battery producer will ever do is built an internal batteriser.
What they could do is build an external batteriser that will 24/7 drain the battery so it lasts shorter  :)

Be that as it may, the money they save on chemicals they can build the boost converter... costing roughly the same amount as it does now. Except, they can charge 3x as much per battery (or 800% if you use Batteriser maths). Makes economical sense to me... if it would just work the way Batteriser claims it does. So while sales per unit drop because of extended usage, the premium people pay makes it worth while.

#BatteryPhool anyone?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on March 29, 2016, 08:28:30 am

I am not sure where your chemical math comes from but the chemicals in a battery are dirt cheap at the moment (think cents) and a dc-dc converter still costs tens of cents at the minimum.
But if you can do a BOM calculation of a complete pcb dc-dc converter doing just that and costing <10 cents @10Million pieces I think many companies are very interested  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on March 29, 2016, 08:32:16 am

Quote from: Kjelt on March 29, 2016, 08:28:30 am

I am not sure where your chemical math comes from but the chemicals in a battery are dirt cheap at the moment (think cents) and a dc-dc converter still costs tens of cents at the minimum.
But if you can do a BOM calculation of a complete pcb dc-dc converter doing just that and costing <10 cents @10Million pieces I think many companies are very interested  ;)

Batteriser Maths ;-) Apparently it's a thing. Seriously I just pulled it out of my ass. The point I was making was if Big Battery could make battery better on current technology, they would have long before Roohparvar and his silly idea.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on March 29, 2016, 08:50:17 am

Well there we differ but that is ok.
To me it is the same thing as saying if petrol companies could make cars run on water they would have done so a long time ago. Why? It would destroy their businessmodel.
The same for battery companies. They exist because batteries have a limited lifetime, if some genius inventor would invent a 20 yr lasting AA cell battery that would destroy their business.
There is proof that companies think and act like this, in the twenties last century light bulb companies came together and made a secret deal that their lamps should not last longer than 1000 hours, if they did they had to pay the other companies a fine. The whole race to make bulbs last longer and longer ended right there and then. Till it came out ofcourse  :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

I also think that the only reason rechargeable batteries were (allowed to be) produced is because they have a lower voltage, internal leakage and relatively short lifetime (4 years?).
And thus form not a direct threat to the conventional battery sales.
Now we do have non leakable rechargeable cells, still lot more expensive than normal rechargeable cells.
As soon as there would be 1,5V rechargeable cells lasting as long as normal batteries, same capacity that would be very interesting to see what would happen.
I my self would not be surprised if big conventional battery companies would buy such a startup to own the patents and keep it under the rug for another 20 years or so.
Alternatively selling them for huge amounts of money so conventional batteries would still be attractive for normal consumers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2016, 09:06:06 am

Quote from: rrinker on March 27, 2016, 04:40:42 pm

Note also they said they would ship in March, and in that one reply Bob slipped in "ship in late April" IF Bob even bothers to offeres any more information, any bets on if they change again and say it will be available in May?

Already done!

(http://i.imgur.com/p76pGnG.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on March 29, 2016, 11:01:04 am

I don;t "understand" the reason they are asking for refunds. Refund is when you buy something.  >:D >:D >:D

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2016, 11:24:00 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on March 29, 2016, 03:41:30 am

It will be so disappointing if it just fades away. I was a least expecting a device that will work with low to moderate current devices. I know that this can be done in the available space, I have built one.(AA size)

It would have been interesting to see if they would have delivered if the wheels hadn't fallen off the billy cart in terms of engineers calling BS on the concept and all the publicity it's generated.
That's what they expected, that no one would take them to task over their claims, and that they could have just shipping anything.
But the critiques on mine and other videos, and hugely on this forum and other places have resulted in them having to do and change a whole bunch of stuff they I'm betting they never foresaw. It's all fruitless of course, because the product will never work as claimed.
They obviously now realise that their product will be hammered if a single one ever makes into the wild and people actually measure it's performance and verify that the claims are complete BS. As if it needed verifying anyway, because real best case engineering calculations are easily performed on paper, but it will be the final nail in the coffin and they know it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on March 29, 2016, 12:02:16 pm

And yet, they're STILL selling them on their webpage, and they STILL ship in 30 days...

A failed Indigogo campaign isn't technically theft...

Selling a product that doesn't exist, and never will, on the other hand...

Edit: until you come to actually pay with paypal...

Disabled paypal account?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=212950;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on March 29, 2016, 12:06:56 pm

I don't think they care any more.  They can't ship because they have nothing to ship (let alone the energizer case), Roo Junior got himself a new job, and Boblets probably has loads of cash in the back anyway from his most recent "removal" from digital optics, or whatever it was.

Dave is right, they never expected any of the engineering analysis, negativity and outright bullshit detection to ever happen to their product.  Their entire company is built on a lie, a lie they never imagined would be made public

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on March 29, 2016, 12:07:45 pm

Quote from: firewalker on March 29, 2016, 11:01:04 am

I don;t "understand" the reason they are asking for refunds. Refund is when you buy something.  >:D >:D >:D

Alexander.

Yep!  More people not understanding that they are investors not customers!  And a few barrack room lawyers thinking that they can sue!  Hahahaha!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on March 29, 2016, 12:14:29 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on March 29, 2016, 12:02:16 pm

And yet, they're STILL selling them on their webpage, and they STILL ship in 30 days...

A failed Indigogo campaign isn't technically theft...

Selling a product that doesn't exist, and never will, on the other hand...

Edit: until you come to actually pay with paypal...

Disabled paypal account?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=212950;image)

Confirmed, paypal not working!  I don't think its a regional thing either as I'm in the UK

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on March 29, 2016, 12:52:26 pm

Seems to be a configuration problem:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32775620/adaptive-payments-unilateral-receiver-not-allowed-in-chained-payment-is-restric (http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32775620/adaptive-payments-unilateral-receiver-not-allowed-in-chained-payment-is-restric)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on March 29, 2016, 12:57:38 pm

Quote from: Delta on March 29, 2016, 12:07:45 pm

Quote from: firewalker on March 29, 2016, 11:01:04 am

I don;t "understand" the reason they are asking for refunds. Refund is when you buy something.

Yep!  More people not understanding that they are investors not customers!  And a few barrack room lawyers thinking that they can sue!  Hahahaha!

I've never been involved on either side of the crowd funding campaigns but my basic understanding and interpretation was that as a backer you were making a commitment to purchase X number of Y items at Z rate on the proviso that the campaign reached it's nominated goal, this aspect was heavily promoted and perhaps a bit misleading for those not versed in all thing's dodgy.

Also a quick internet search reveals that the term "refund" also relates to the act of restitution, reparation, recompense, reimburse, redress, in addition to pay back..... ;D , not necessarily or specifically of monetary value. Common courtesy and decency has a far greater value than a bob or two in my view.... :D 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: zal42 on March 29, 2016, 01:25:32 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on March 29, 2016, 12:57:38 pm

as a backer you were making a commitment to purchase X number of Y items at Z rate on the proviso that the campaign reached it's nominated goal

It's not exactly that. You're not making a production pre-order. You are investing in a high-risk venture, and you get "rewards" based on how much you put in. The nature of the reward depends on the people running the campaign. Usually, at a minimum, you get a copy of whatever is being produced, but if you put in more money you can get goodies like meeting the team, getting your name put somewhere, etc. It's a bit like donating money to a charity drive and they give you "prizes" in return.

But what you are not doing is engaging in a retail transaction: I give you money and you ship me a product. People seem to get confused on this point. Understandably so, because the first prize is usually a copy of the product -- so if everything goes well, the effect looks very much like a retail transaction.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on March 29, 2016, 01:34:38 pm

Quote from: zal42 on March 29, 2016, 01:25:32 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on March 29, 2016, 12:57:38 pm

as a backer you were making a commitment to purchase X number of Y items at Z rate on the proviso that the campaign reached it's nominated goal

It's not exactly that. You're not making a production pre-order. You are investing in a high-risk venture, and you get "rewards" based on how much you put in. The nature of the reward depends on the people running the campaign. Usually, at a minimum, you get a copy of whatever is being produced, but if you put in more money you can get goodies like meeting the team, getting your name put somewhere, etc. It's a bit like donating money to a charity drive and they give you "prizes" in return.

But what you are not doing is engaging in a retail transaction: I give you money and you ship me a product. People seem to get confused on this point. Understandably so, because the first prize is usually a copy of the product -- so if everything goes well, the effect looks very much like a retail transaction.

It's not even a pre order though (as far as I understand) - this is where further confusion comes in!  You are not committing to purchase anything, you are not pre ordering anything, you are DONATING money to a cause, and that cause may offer "perks" as a token of their appreciation.

Admittedly, many campaigners DO use IGG / KS as a pre ordering system, but it is simply not.  Backers need to be aware of this.  And also of the laws of physics...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on March 29, 2016, 01:39:51 pm

Obviously I need to study up on how these promotions are organised and as we have all witnessed here not take things at face value or assume that all play fair, thank you for the heads up..... :-+

Added a couple of handy links below for those that went for a ride on the Batteroo bus to nowhere.

IGG terms and conditions.
https://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms (https://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms)

A must read for all.
http://wp.josh.com/2014/01/21/read-this-before-you-contribute-to-an-indiegogo-campaign/ (http://wp.josh.com/2014/01/21/read-this-before-you-contribute-to-an-indiegogo-campaign/)

Extract: Will receive sleeves.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=213291;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on March 29, 2016, 02:19:38 pm

This confusion over backing vs. buying isn't helped when Ali and Bob Roohparvar were both posting Updates saying:

"Only NN hours left to buy batterisers on Indiegogo!
It's the final stretch of our pre-sale, and we are thankful for all of your contributions! 
In these few final days, don’t forget to refer your friends,  and be rewarded with free Batterisers for every friend who buys. Just use the “link” icon on the left side of the IGG page and share with all your friends via e-mail or social media."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on March 29, 2016, 02:33:49 pm

Yeah, I have to chuckle every time I see a Batteriser backer on IGG talk of a lawsuit.  There is no lawsuit.  There can be no lawsuit.  These people willingly gave their money to Batteriser without doing their own due diligence (or even thinking it through for a moment) as an investment...  A donation...  There is no guarantee of ever receiving your perk.  These backers seem to misunderstand that they didn't BUY anything, they may well never receive their "perks" for their donation...

They can ask for a refund or bluster about a lawsuit all they want but that's not how investments and donations work.  You consider the money GONE as soon as it leaves your hand.  In most cases it is very, very difficult to prove seekers of funding were not acting in good faith and fraudulently took your money.  This one is almost there on the tech but people should have realized that before forking over money!

HA! HAHAHAHA!!....  Suckers!!  :)

The only people that really could call foul are those who have ACTUALLY ORDERED THEIR PRODUCT on the Batteriser website and never receive it.  This is likely to be a very small number of people and given the small value of the good in question, it is highly unlikely anyone would ever bother to waste the money to sue.  Also, anyone who talks of class action fundamentally doesn't even understand how class action suits work.  There will never be a class action suit in this kind of case. 

The IGG backers are simply SOL.

As fot the Energizer thing, remember that is NOT a lawsuit either.  Energizer opposed their application for the Batteriser trademark.  If Batteriser SHIPS with the Batteriser name without getting that cleared up (and there are several possible ways that can be done in these circumstances)  one way or another, THAT would open them up to lawsuits with potentially devastating damages.

As it sits right now, Energizer is NOT suing Batteriser. 

(At least not yet!  :) )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Andy Watson on March 29, 2016, 02:59:57 pm

Quote from: drussell on March 29, 2016, 02:33:49 pm

  There can be no lawsuit.  These people willingly gave their money to Batteriser without doing their own due diligence (or even thinking it through for a moment) as an investment...  A donation...  There is no guarantee of ever receiving your perk.  These backers seem to misunderstand that they didn't BUY anything, they may well never receive their "perks" for their donation...

It probably depends on location, but in some places it could be argued as obtaining money by deception - i.e. fraud. Here is one case
http://www.geekwire.com/2014/attorney-general-asylum-playing-cards-crowdfunded-project/ (http://www.geekwire.com/2014/attorney-general-asylum-playing-cards-crowdfunded-project/)
and the outcome
http://atg.wa.gov/news/news-releases/ag-makes-crowdfunded-company-pay-shady-deal (http://atg.wa.gov/news/news-releases/ag-makes-crowdfunded-company-pay-shady-deal)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on March 29, 2016, 03:16:25 pm

Quote from: drussell on March 29, 2016, 02:33:49 pm

Yeah, I have to chuckle every time I see a Batteriser backer on IGG talk of a lawsuit.  There is no lawsuit.  There can be no lawsuit.

IANAL but there might be ... it's still fraud if you can prove it's a deliberate scam and they never intended to ship anything.

People's intentions are very hard to prove in a court though. All Bob+Ali have to do is pretend they're genuine idiots who really thought it would work. Case dismissed.

Quote from: drussell on March 29, 2016, 02:33:49 pm

As fot the Energizer thing, remember that is NOT a lawsuit either.  Energizer opposed their application for the Batteriser trademark.  If Batteriser SHIPS with the Batteriser name without getting that cleared up (and there are several possible ways that can be done in these circumstances)  one way or another, THAT would open them up to lawsuits with potentially devastating damages.

As it sits right now, Energizer is NOT suing Batteriser. 
>

That might be why they haven't mentioned the lawsuit to anybody.

If they can land a "Walmart" type of customer they can tell them "Oh, BTW, you'll have to change the name... Energiser has a problem with this one".

A name change is no big deal to that sort of customer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on March 29, 2016, 05:01:33 pm

Quote from: drussell on March 29, 2016, 02:33:49 pm

Yeah, I have to chuckle every time I see a Batteriser backer on IGG talk of a lawsuit.  There is no lawsuit.  There can be no lawsuit.

IGG commenters throwing the word lawsuit around as a threat is amusing but I don't agree that there is zero action available to backers. Yes, they gave money to IGG who passed it onto Batteroo, but IGG terms says the Campaign Owner shall deliver the perks, that's part of the agreement which wouldn't be in place if they were simply privately funding Batteroo.

Bob et al. would claim they ran the campaign responsibly, backers will claim otherwise. They may fail to deliver perks and run out of money claiming all sorts of unforeseen circumstances (#bigbattery, #eevblog, #landslide) so backers may get nothing out of an action other than the satisfaction of dragging perceived villains through the wringer and an eye-watering legal bill.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on March 29, 2016, 06:14:05 pm

Quote from: rich

Bob et al. would claim they ran the campaign responsibly, backers will claim otherwise. They may fail to deliver perks and run out of money claiming all sorts of unforeseen circumstances (#bigbattery, #eevblog, #landslide) so backers may get nothing out of an action other than the satisfaction of dragging perceived villains through the wringer and an eye-watering legal bill.

What if (for example) it can be proved that the landslide didn't affect Batteroo.

Shenzhen is 2000 square kilometers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenzhen#Geography) (769 square miles). The landslide affected 0.1 square kilometers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Shenzhen_landslide#Landslide). Do the math.  :popcorn:

I bet there's other stuff that could be tested/demonstrated in court, too.

eg. Dave's measurement of the exact battery voltage where the monkey stops working is quite revealing. The batteries have to be basically dead for the monkey to stop moving. There's no way Batteroo didn't know that. They had to be using carefully prepared batteries in the video therefore the monkey video is deliberately misleading.

Bob+Ali's email is probably a fun read. I wonder if it could be subpoenaed intact.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on March 29, 2016, 07:04:36 pm

Quote from: Fungus on March 29, 2016, 06:14:05 pm

What if (for example) it can be proved that the landslide didn't affect Batteroo.

Just another brick in the wall of false representations, I'm not sure I see anything particularly special about this brick.

Quote from: Fungus on March 29, 2016, 06:14:05 pm

Shenzhen is 2000 square kilometers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenzhen#Geography) (769 square miles). The landslide affected 0.1 square kilometers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Shenzhen_landslide#Landslide). Do the math.  :popcorn:

Yup, math tends to zero, especially if you increase the denominator to include Taiwan where Batteroo allegedly have boots on the ground sorting out CM issues.

Quote from: Fungus on March 29, 2016, 06:14:05 pm

I bet there's other stuff that could be tested/demonstrated in court, too.

Bob+Ali's email is probably a fun read. I wonder if it could be subpoenaed intact.

There's a whole catalogue of evidence in this thread which was subsequently deleted/modified. Emails would certainly make for an interesting read.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on March 29, 2016, 07:14:45 pm

Quote from: rich on March 29, 2016, 07:04:36 pm

Quote from: Fungus on March 29, 2016, 06:14:05 pm

What if (for example) it can be proved that the landslide didn't affect Batteroo.

Just another brick in the wall of false representations, I'm not sure I see anything particularly special about this brick.

It's very provable, very black/white. Either the Batteriser factory was underneath that hill or it wasn't.

(There's not many components in a Batteriser, it would be difficult for it to indirectly affect their supply chain).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on March 29, 2016, 08:25:27 pm

Ah I see. As for indirectly affecting the supply chain - in the same paragraph Batteroo deployed the landslide excuse they also said final assembly is underway and packaging is nearly complete. So either they were all destroyed in December, or they just need putting in boxes and posting. Thats sounds quite provable too.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 29, 2016, 09:46:42 pm

Quote from: rich on March 29, 2016, 02:19:38 pm

This confusion over backing vs. buying isn't helped when Ali and Bob Roohparvar were both posting Updates saying:

"Only NN hours left to buy batterisers on Indiegogo!
It's the final stretch of our pre-sale, and we are thankful for all of your contributions! 
In these few final days, don’t forget to refer your friends,  and be rewarded with free Batterisers for every friend who buys. Just use the “link” icon on the left side of the IGG page and share with all your friends via e-mail or social media."

I'm no lawyer - but that looks pretty much like a rather specific offer.  While Indiegogo may have their basic model defined as a 'contributions' structure, it does not preclude a campaign from offering more concrete rewards.  When you use a phrase like: "Only NN hours left to buy batterisers on Indiegogo!", as I see it, the mechanism is no longer following the 'give your money and cross your fingers you'll get something', but a simple, unambiguous offer of goods for sale.  When such an offer is accepted and money paid, as I understand it, that is a contract.

Offer - acceptance - consideration ... It's all there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2016, 10:26:38 pm

Quote from: Delta on March 29, 2016, 01:34:38 pm

It's not even a pre order though (as far as I understand) - this is where further confusion comes in!  You are not committing to purchase anything, you are not pre ordering anything, you are DONATING money to a cause, and that cause may offer "perks" as a token of their appreciation.
Admittedly, many campaigners DO use IGG / KS as a pre ordering system, but it is simply not.  Backers need to be aware of this.  And also of the laws of physics...

Unfortunately the tax department doesn't see it that way. Extensive talks with my accountant came to the conclusion that I had to pay tax on the Kickstarter income, it's wasn't a "donation". The promise and intent is enough to justify it as income.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on March 29, 2016, 10:49:33 pm

Quote from: rich on March 29, 2016, 02:19:38 pm

...don’t forget to refer your friends,  and be rewarded with free Batterisers for every friend who buys...

That 'referral' offer opens up an interesting legal position for contributors that actually made referrals to other 'investors'.
Batteroo stepped outside the 'investment' concept to a 'pay & reward' model - which they can't satisfy on either side.

Any lawyers here?
Also, between this offer and the basic IGG / campaign terms - are there any terms that are in breach of trade-practices legislation in various countries?  IGG or Batteroo may be exposed to statutory refunds in some regions.

ADDED: What about the history of including (tarnishing) the names of others that have been mentioned repeatedly - Walmart etc...  as participants in his grand plan to take over the battery world.  If these people all took Bob to task - his house would be gone in a heartbeat to fund the doomed legal defence.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on March 29, 2016, 11:20:03 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on March 29, 2016, 10:26:38 pm

Unfortunately the tax department doesn't see it that way. Extensive talks with my accountant came to the conclusion that I had to pay tax on the Kickstarter income, it's wasn't a "donation". The promise and intent is enough to justify it as income.

Interesting.  However in most counties (the UK definitely) the right hand and the left hand don't always do the same thing; tax law and consumer law may well follow very different definitions!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on March 31, 2016, 01:13:09 am

Is "charge up" an internet meme or colloquialism I've missed? I see it in all the recent Facebook posts from Batteriser, and think that it's just deliberately misleading when placed near the phrase "dead battery" in this context.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 31, 2016, 03:39:57 am

So March is done, and no update for two months now.
They obviously have had nothing good to report.
I hope it doesn't end like this with a whimper.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on March 31, 2016, 04:09:13 am

It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the conditions listed below could it ?, seems to be a popular tactic used by some unscrupulous merchants.

https://chargebacks911.com/chargeback-time-limit/ (https://chargebacks911.com/chargeback-time-limit/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on March 31, 2016, 04:19:10 am

 Then there's how you really do it - I backed those Engineer Excuse Dice on Kickstarter, just because I thought it was pretty funny.  It was fully funded and they are expected to ship early May. There have been regular updates - in fact there was one less than a week ago, and there was another today in which the poster apologized for not posting more! This is a pretty low risk, low tech product, and the guy's apologizing for not updating more than once a week.
 The Batteroo's minions are no longer even bother to delete the negative comments doesn't bode well for continued drama. I think our show may be nearly over.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on March 31, 2016, 05:06:22 am

They are aggressively deleting from Facebook, swinging the ban hammer and ramping up the hype. I assume that's all outsourced to the JPR Communications company minions. Bob hasn't posted for 2 weeks on IGG so he must be overseas lovingly hand soldering custom silicon for us to meet all the extra demand the new marketing push is generating.

Or maybe he's been busy posting the $250000 bail for the man with the same surname in Saratoga Ca. that was arrested on March 9th ** Disclaimer I have no proof of any connection between Bob and the guy in the news story so I won't be posting any links, but my sleep deprived mind enjoys the drama of thinking it could be connected  :)  :=\ **

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on March 31, 2016, 05:15:36 am

As soon as you see a "photo" of a product with mirrored reflection you can be damn sure this is a CAD rendering.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on March 31, 2016, 05:55:14 am

Quote from: Bud on March 31, 2016, 05:15:36 am

As soon as you see a "photo" of a product with mirrored reflection you can be damn sure this is a CAD rendering.

Oh really?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: station240 on March 31, 2016, 06:30:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 29, 2016, 10:26:38 pm

Unfortunately the tax department doesn't see it that way. Extensive talks with my accountant came to the conclusion that I had to pay tax on the Kickstarter income, it's wasn't a "donation". The promise and intent is enough to justify it as income.

Ouch, I can see how some well planned campaigns could come unglued if they didn't take income tax into account, or simply raised a lot of money and put the creators into a higher tax bracket.
It's a weird feeling when a scammer goes to jail, simply for not paying tax on their illgotten booty.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 31, 2016, 06:57:45 am

Quote from: rich on March 31, 2016, 05:06:22 am

Or maybe he's been busy posting the $250000 bail for the man with the same surname in Saratoga Ca. that was arrested on March 9th ** Disclaimer I have no proof of any connection between Bob and the guy in the news story so I won't be posting any links, but my sleep deprived mind enjoys the drama of thinking it could be connected  :)  :=\ **

It is absolutely not the same person. Only the surname in common.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on March 31, 2016, 07:09:53 am

Agreed. I was thinking if it was a family member who needed help then most people would naturally prioritise that over posting updates on IGG.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on March 31, 2016, 09:35:01 am

Quote from: rich on March 31, 2016, 07:09:53 am

Agreed. I was thinking if it was a family member who needed help then most people would naturally prioritise that over posting updates on IGG.

Bob told us that it's all the long, late night telephone calls to China that's preventing him from posting any updates.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on March 31, 2016, 01:42:08 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on March 31, 2016, 06:57:45 am

It is absolutely not the same person. Only the surname in common.

Definitely not Bob, though it looks like he used to live in Saratoga.  Quite possibly a family member given they share the same surname, location and moral/ethical behaviour...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on March 31, 2016, 02:10:30 pm

The first of those two cartoon videos has been removed, I expect that the other one will probably soon follow.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg904043/#msg904043 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg904043/#msg904043)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on March 31, 2016, 07:13:49 pm

"Tap more energy"

It should have been "Tap THAT energy!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on April 01, 2016, 08:54:21 am

there's no visitors posts at all on the facebook page anymore...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 01, 2016, 09:11:24 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on March 31, 2016, 02:10:30 pm

The first of those two cartoon videos has been removed, I expect that the other one will probably soon follow.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg904043/#msg904043 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg904043/#msg904043)

We know they watch this forum like hawks. Almost certain they asked for them to be removed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 01, 2016, 09:14:24 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on April 01, 2016, 08:54:21 am

there's no visitors posts at all on the facebook page anymore...

I haven't seen a more inane company Facebook page. The posts are just stupid and pointless  :palm:

And I see almost no comments, they have purged everything?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on April 01, 2016, 09:18:08 am

Quote

I haven't seen a more inane company Facebook page. The posts are just stupid and pointless

Yip...
Never have I seen a promotional page, Bookface or not, that has a post every Wednesday with a picture of a camel and the words "yay... its hump day"...
So lame...


Edit: Spelling correction.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 01, 2016, 09:27:32 am

Welp, March is over. Bobs last official update on indiegogo said they would ship in March... so they must be shipped right ;)
..
Would be hilarious if an update pops up today being April 1st.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on April 01, 2016, 09:42:18 am

Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on March 31, 2016, 05:55:14 am

Quote from: Bud on March 31, 2016, 05:15:36 am

As soon as you see a "photo" of a product with mirrored reflection you can be damn sure this is a CAD rendering.

Oh really?

Well, I'm sure Bob is familiar with small mirrors like that. But his involves a rolled up dollar bill and razor blade, not a battery.

Clearly that's what they used all the money on.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 01, 2016, 08:04:45 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/brVHbP4.png?3)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 01, 2016, 08:14:01 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 01, 2016, 08:04:45 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/brVHbP4.png?3)

Which of the 'promises'?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on April 01, 2016, 08:47:45 pm

Quote from: Fungus on April 01, 2016, 08:14:01 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 01, 2016, 08:04:45 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/brVHbP4.png?3)

Which of the 'promises'?

so, his update is that we'll get an update?  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 01, 2016, 08:56:05 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on April 01, 2016, 08:47:45 pm

Quote from: Fungus on April 01, 2016, 08:14:01 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 01, 2016, 08:04:45 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/brVHbP4.png?3)

Which of the 'promises'?

so, his update is that we'll get an update?  :-//

I thought it was odd too. Not on the official update page, just some comment in the comment section. Maybe there will be an update later...or not. Either way, weird way to go about it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on April 01, 2016, 08:59:34 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 01, 2016, 08:04:45 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/brVHbP4.png?3)

April's fool day!

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on April 01, 2016, 09:03:59 pm

I suspect the only reason Bob posted is because it looks like IGG begun taking a heightened interest. A few posts lower than Bob's, is a81120067 post quoting an IGG response dated April 1st saying the campaign is under review.

It all begs the question wtf have they been doing all this time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 01, 2016, 09:08:26 pm

Quote from: rich on April 01, 2016, 09:03:59 pm

I suspect the only reason Bob posted is because it looks like IGG begun taking a heightened interest. A few posts lower than Bob's, is a81120067 post quoting an IGG response dated April 1st saying the campaign is under review.

It all begs the question wtf have they been doing all this time.

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 01, 2016, 08:56:05 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on April 01, 2016, 08:47:45 pm

Quote from: Fungus on April 01, 2016, 08:14:01 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 01, 2016, 08:04:45 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/brVHbP4.png?3)

Which of the 'promises'?

so, his update is that we'll get an update?  :-//

I thought it was odd too. Not on the official update page, just some comment in the comment section. Maybe there will be an update later...or not. Either way, weird way to go about it.

Quote from: AmmoJammo on April 01, 2016, 08:47:45 pm

Quote from: Fungus on April 01, 2016, 08:14:01 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 01, 2016, 08:04:45 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/brVHbP4.png?3)

Which of the 'promises'?

so, his update is that we'll get an update?  :-//

The other thing that is odd about it, messages discussing the IGG TOS are coming in and shortly after there is a minimal response

(http://i.imgur.com/xYWBmcI.png?2)

From IGG TOS

"Campaign Owners are legally bound to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors (including delivering any Perks). Indiegogo does not recognize any third party and/or agency affiliated with the Campaign as a Campaign Owner. If a Campaign Owner is unable to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors, the Campaign Owner will work with the Contributors to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution, which may include the issuance of a refund of Contributions by the Campaign Owner. Indiegogo is under no obligation to become involved in disputes between Campaign Owners and Contributors, or Users and any third party. In addition, Indiegogo is under no obligation to become involved in disputes regarding the determination of the rightful Campaign Owner, and will not be obligated to make any changes to Campaign Owner accounts or transfer of ownership. In the event of any dispute, such as a Campaign Owner's alleged failure to comply with the Terms or alleged failure in fulfillment of a Perk, we may provide the Campaign Owner's contact information to the Contributor so that the two parties may resolve their dispute....
For Campaign Owners participating in programs with our retail partners, failure to ship orders to Indiegogo Contributors first may result in removal from such retail partnership programs. Campaign Owners will respond promptly and truthfully to all questions posed to them by Indiegogo or any Contributor. If any Campaign Owner is unable to fulfill any of its commitments to Contributors (including delivering any Perks), the Campaign Owner will work with the Contributors to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution, which may include refunding their Contributions. Campaign Owners will comply with all applicable laws and regulations in the use of Contributions and delivery of Perks.....
"
Who knows  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on April 01, 2016, 09:14:59 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 01, 2016, 08:04:45 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/brVHbP4.png?3)

If you look under the thin veneer, he doesn't actually say **** all. Not that they've ordered the parts, that any production has even started, that they have a demonstrable pre production run. Not even any time commitment. This is a self-proclaimed veteran of the industry, what could possibly go wrong FFS?

However, I can imagine he'll have his sleeves rolled up digging himself out of that landslip: the one made of 800% cow turd that he's made himself.

800% bullshit, to coin a well-known phrase of this forum.

Regrettably for all of us there isn't, and never will be, any product :-(

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on April 01, 2016, 10:13:09 pm

Quote from: rich on April 01, 2016, 09:03:59 pm

I suspect the only reason Bob posted is because it looks like IGG begun taking a heightened interest. A few posts lower than Bob's, is a81120067 post quoting an IGG response dated April 1st saying the campaign is under review.

It all begs the question wtf have they been doing all this time.

So if IGG makes them refund the money and Bob and Ali spent it all, can IGG take it out of their account on file?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on April 01, 2016, 10:54:28 pm

See:

Quote from: from https://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms (https://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms)

Disputes between Campaign Owners and Contributors
Campaign Owners are legally bound to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors (including delivering any Perks). Indiegogo does not recognize any third party and/or agency affiliated with the Campaign as a Campaign Owner. If a Campaign Owner is unable to perform on any promise and/or commitment to Contributors, the Campaign Owner will work with the Contributors to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution, which may include the issuance of a refund of Contributions by the Campaign Owner. Indiegogo is under no obligation to become involved in disputes between Campaign Owners and Contributors, or Users and any third party. In addition, Indiegogo is under no obligation to become involved in disputes regarding the determination of the rightful Campaign Owner, and will not be obligated to make any changes to Campaign Owner accounts or transfer of ownership. In the event of any dispute, such as a Campaign Owner's alleged failure to comply with the Terms or alleged failure in fulfillment of a Perk, we may provide the Campaign Owner's contact information to the Contributor so that the two parties may resolve their dispute.

tldr; IGG's not obliged to do anything. They might restrict the campaign owner's future activity is about as assertive it gets. It may be they just needed to remind Bob of his duties and he came to his senses  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on April 01, 2016, 11:10:37 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on March 31, 2016, 02:10:30 pm

The first of those two cartoon videos has been removed, I expect that the other one will probably soon follow.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg904043/#msg904043 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg904043/#msg904043)

Maybe, but they are still generating new Batteriser content, so it does look like part of a legitimate design process. Similar content, but now with voice over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuucnQOvYvs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuucnQOvYvs)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on April 01, 2016, 11:13:16 pm

Quote

a Campaign Owner's alleged failure to comply with the Terms or alleged failure in fulfillment of a Perk, we may provide the Campaign Owner's contact information to the Contributor so that the two parties may resolve their dispute.

ha ha contributors may get an email address  :-DD   Then they can waste their time writing emails.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: gore on April 02, 2016, 11:40:57 am

This guy probably has a team dedicated to operating door handles. Translation of the latest update: "- You got conned. Give up and stop asking for stuff or you will be forced to read my tormenting, agonizing updates". People still expect to get theirs. This entire campaign was a huge red flag from the get go. I know it's not difficult to sucker in people with no technical background, but this is hardly a technical matter. Only a little bit of research and critical thinking would saved them some money. 800%! You know what I mean. Personally, claims that break the laws of physics usually tips me off.

P.S. Don't forget to collect your free gift. A designer 9V Batteriser sleeve - as promised, along with the rest of your bundle.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 02, 2016, 12:23:03 pm

Quote from: Howardlong on April 01, 2016, 09:14:59 pm

If you look under the thin veneer, he doesn't actually say **** all. Not that they've ordered the parts, that any production has even started, that they have a demonstrable pre production run. Not even any time commitment. This is a self-proclaimed veteran of the industry, what could possibly go wrong FFS?

And that's the thing, this guy was the CEO of Flextronics for goodness sake!
He should be extremely fluent in production lingo, capable of coming up with any conceivable excuse possible, yet with countess people after him with pitchforks, he can't say a single thing about production after all this time?
It is clear he does not want to, and that speaks volumes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 02, 2016, 12:27:08 pm

The other thing is for months and months he's been talking about shipping as if it's imminent, yet the biggest problem is that he still hasn't shown a single pre-production prototype.
Even after all the talk about the 500mA version that it was implied was imminent for production and therefore must have pre-production prototypes, as they have tested them to find they weren't capable, they still haven't even shown those.
Nothing, zip, zilch, nada.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Towger on April 02, 2016, 01:27:31 pm

It would be interesting to talk to someone who worked with him in Flextronics.  Sometimes big companies make big mistakes in their appoints.  Bank of Scotland apointed one if the IRA's money men to head up their Irish operation without properly checking his background.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AF6LJ on April 02, 2016, 02:47:10 pm

SO;
At this point; is this guy just plain stupid thinking his idea would work?
OR;
Was his intent to rip off his backers?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: DJohn on April 02, 2016, 03:48:38 pm

Quote from: AF6LJ on April 02, 2016, 02:47:10 pm

At this point; is this guy just plain stupid thinking his idea would work?

I think that's how it started.  If you don't know much about batteries, or the difference between voltage and power, and you make the mistake of measuring the unloaded voltage of a 'dead' battery thinking it's the cut-off voltage of the device, and you don't stop to think "wouldn't someone have done this already?", then it sounds like a great idea.

The 800% claim is exactly what you get if you make all those mistakes.  You start with a nominal 1.5V (don't measure it, that's what's written on the battery).  Run your device until it stops.  Take the battery out and measure the voltage.  1.4V!  It's hardly used anything!  If we can boost it back up to 1.5V, we can keep going.  Between 0.6V and 1.4V is another 8 steps of 0.1V.

But it must have become clear to them long ago that it couldn't possibly work.  I don't know what they're doing now.

There is a chance that they actually do have a product (just not one that will do what they claim).  And it's not without value - if they can find an application for a tiny boost converter that runs down to 0.6V, their investors could still make some money.  It's just the crowdfunders who think they're getting miracle battery life extenders who lose out.  IF they have anything.  That if is getting bigger every day they don't ship.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on April 02, 2016, 04:08:53 pm

Quote from: DJohn on April 02, 2016, 03:48:38 pm

The 800% claim is exactly what you get if you make all those mistakes.  You start with a nominal 1.5V (don't measure it, that's what's written on the battery).  Run your device until it stops.  Take the battery out and measure the voltage.  1.4V!  It's hardly used anything!  If we can boost it back up to 1.5V, we can keep going.  Between 0.6V and 1.4V is another 8 steps of 0.1V.

 :-+  I agree, I could easily see this happening if all the initial testing was performed using only unloaded cell voltage.  It would mean you'd need to be completely ignorant of internal resistance i.e. not have even the most basic of electrical/electronics knowledge.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 02, 2016, 04:21:40 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 02, 2016, 12:27:08 pm

The other thing is for months and months he's been talking about shipping as if it's imminent, yet the biggest problem is that he still hasn't shown a single pre-production prototype.

Yep. I haven't seen a single kickstarter where they didn't have a photo proudly holding the prototype, first chip sample, first production unit off the line, etc.

I don't believe they've produced a single thing other than those first prototypes. It's all lies. Prove me wrong, Bob.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on April 02, 2016, 04:23:26 pm

Given the lack of communication this seems rather apt:

(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac257/mikerj/Jay_and_Silent_Bob_Rooh2_zpsez5hxdtl.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: zal42 on April 02, 2016, 04:51:48 pm

Quote from: mikerj on April 02, 2016, 04:08:53 pm

:-+  I agree, I could easily see this happening if all the initial testing was performed using only unloaded cell voltage.  It would mean you'd need to be completely ignorant of internal resistance i.e. not have even the most basic of electrical/electronics knowledge.

Which would mean that no competent and/or honest engineer came within a mile of this thing. No surprise.

I realized years ago that people are easily suckered into believing impossible things about fields they aren't educated in. The sad thing is that it's so easy to avoid the worst of these by following a simple rule of thumb: if experts are saying that something is impossible, give up all hope. If they're something is impractical or infeasible, you may allow some seed of hope to remain -- those are matters of economics, and economics change.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 02, 2016, 07:24:18 pm

Quote from: AF6LJ on April 02, 2016, 02:47:10 pm

SO;
At this point; is this guy just plain stupid thinking his idea would work?
OR;
Was his intent to rip off his backers?

He has a BS, MS, and PhD in electrical engineering, is a professor at a Uni, and was in the tech sector for a while, his brother has a BS CE and a MS EE and is in the tech sector. Not so knowledgeable PhDs do exist though (really it's not that uncommon, especially if they're outside of their PhD work which is usually pretty narrow). A 3rd possibility is inventor blindness or whatever (believing it works because one wants it to work despite reality). That is actually really common. But at this point, most people would be aware I'd think.

Also, the concept probably does work at some level... but probably not on devices that were properly designed in the first place.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on April 02, 2016, 07:47:16 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 02, 2016, 12:23:03 pm

yet with countess people after him with pitchforks, he can't say a single thing about production after all this time?

Ooo, so he's even got royalty after him at this stage!  ::)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on April 03, 2016, 03:22:28 am

Quote from: mikerj on April 02, 2016, 04:23:26 pm

Given the lack of communication this seems rather apt:

(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac257/mikerj/Jay_and_Silent_Bob_Rooh2_zpsez5hxdtl.jpg)

I had no idea of the cultural reference* for your creation, so I followed the image tag to your photobucket which tried to sell me a calendar. Very appropriate. :-DD

* Silent Bob for anyone who's wondering.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on April 03, 2016, 07:10:53 am

If there isn't a bin of production units by now for show and tell, there isn't going to be.  60 days from IGG funding to shipping was a stupid estimate, but there's now been a perfectly reasonable amount of time for pre-production units.  There just isn't that much to this thing. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 03, 2016, 08:30:24 am

Quote from: AF6LJ on April 02, 2016, 02:47:10 pm

SO;
At this point; is this guy just plain stupid thinking his idea would work?

Yes, demonstrably so.

Quote

OR;
Was his intent to rip off his backers?

He likely thought people would never to do the proper testing required to show it's claims are BS. They'd get something out of it and then just toss them.
He did not count on the entire engineering community taking him to task over the grossly exaggerated claims, and becoming the laughing stock of the industry.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 03, 2016, 08:35:42 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on April 03, 2016, 07:10:53 am

60 days from IGG funding to shipping was a stupid estimate

Not so if you are the former CEO of Flextronics, and you had pre-production prototypes which they claimed in no uncertain terms that they had.

Backers should never forget this!, direct from their IGG campaign page it clearly states they had pre-production prototypes before the IGG campaign was launched. Yep no evidence has ever been presented that they had "pre-production" prototypes. In fact all the evidence is to the contrary.
(http://i.imgur.com/wklimqj.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 03, 2016, 08:39:10 am

I corrected the image....

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=214326;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on April 03, 2016, 10:04:22 am

Quote from: rich on April 03, 2016, 03:22:28 am

[I had no idea of the cultural reference* for your creation, so I followed the image tag to your photobucket which tried to sell me a calendar. Very appropriate. :-DD

 :D I'm not sure a standard calendar will have enough months to cover the delivery schedule.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on April 03, 2016, 11:29:02 am

Quote from: mikerj

  .. I'm not sure a standard calendar will have enough months to cover the delivery schedule ... 

WOOHOOO Just thought of a new IGG campaign !!! an 800% MORE months calendar !! MINE ! All MINE !!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on April 03, 2016, 12:16:09 pm

Quote from: mikerj on April 03, 2016, 10:04:22 am

 :D I'm not sure a standard calendar will have enough months to cover the delivery schedule.

Every month would have to be labeled "Next Month" without any reference to actual month names.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on April 03, 2016, 12:23:04 pm

The regulators might finally be waking up to dodgy crowdfunding and the pisspoor VC industry.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/01/sec_chair_blasts_silicon_valley_valuations/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/01/sec_chair_blasts_silicon_valley_valuations/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 03, 2016, 04:53:25 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 03, 2016, 08:30:24 am

Quote from: AF6LJ on April 02, 2016, 02:47:10 pm

SO;
At this point; is this guy just plain stupid thinking his idea would work?

Yes, demonstrably so.

I disagree. The "technical explanation" video they came up with after your first round of debunking showed that they understand batteries perfectly.

The "Probes the Monkey" video also shows that they know perfectly well what ESR is.

The explanations were bullshit, but they were cleverly crafted bullshit that showed quite a lot of understanding of the underlying theories.

I don't know what he started out thinking when he came up with the original idea but there's no way he believed Batteriser worked as claimed when those two videos were made. No Sir. Nope.

Quote from: EEVblog on April 03, 2016, 08:30:24 am

Quote

OR;
Was his intent to rip off his backers?

He likely thought people would never to do the proper testing required to show it's claims are BS. They'd get something out of it and then just toss them.

"Hoping nobody would notice" is really the same as "intending to rip them off".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on April 03, 2016, 05:09:45 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 03, 2016, 08:35:42 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on April 03, 2016, 07:10:53 am

60 days from IGG funding to shipping was a stupid estimate

Not so if you are the former CEO of Flextronics, and you had pre-production prototypes which they claimed in no uncertain terms that they had.

Backers should never forget this!, direct from their IGG campaign page it clearly states they had pre-production prototypes before the IGG campaign was launched. Yep no evidence has ever been presented that they had "pre-production" prototypes. In fact all the evidence is to the contrary.
(http://i.imgur.com/wklimqj.png)

Like all things written by Bob 'king of doublespeak' Roohparvar you must be reading or testing it wrong :)

To add weight to Dave's assertion:

June 2nd:  PC World early prototypes shown
July: Chip redesigned, not yet fabricated (expected October?) so no PPP
End of July (27th?): Indiegogo campaign starts. No mention of redesigned IC
End of August: Campaign over funded (300%?) and extended for another 30days.

In BobQuotes™:
Late October/early Nov 2015: "The early prototype that we took to PC World wasn't optimized yet for high-drain devices."
November 24th "We expected our final IC to be ready and out of the fabrication facility (FAB) over a month ago."
Dec 22nd 2015: "As you may recall, we initially planned to ship the 500 milli-amp beta version of the Batteriser; however, we made a strategic decision to deliver Batterisers with a  new IC (Integrated circuit)"

Ali Roohparvar's comment (that was later deleted) eventually undermined the intention to ship the 500mA story, admitting they had redesigned the IC before the campaign started:
Ali Roohparvar, Dec 10th 2015: "We were ready to producte [sic] those over the summer. We designed a new IC in July to handle higher current."

Not relevant to pre-production prototypes, but still my favourite smoking gun quote:
Dec 22nd 2015: "The Batteriser final assembly is underway and packaging is nearly complete."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on April 03, 2016, 05:28:01 pm

Quote from: Fungus on April 03, 2016, 04:53:25 pm

I don't know what he started out thinking when he came up with the original idea but there's no way he believed Batteriser worked as claimed when those two videos were made. No Sir. Nope.

I seem to recall even the engineer driving the oscilloscope for Bob in the video response looked deeply uncomfortable, and I don't think that was just from being camera shy.

Quote from: Fungus on April 03, 2016, 04:53:25 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 03, 2016, 08:30:24 am

Quote

OR;
Was his intent to rip off his backers?

He likely thought people would never to do the proper testing required to show it's claims are BS. They'd get something out of it and then just toss them.

"Hoping nobody would notice" is really the same as "intending to rip them off".

Agree with both of you here. There is a small positive effect for poorly designed devices, but videos purposely tried to spin it differently.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 03, 2016, 06:14:03 pm

Quote from: rich on April 03, 2016, 05:28:01 pm

Quote from: Fungus on April 03, 2016, 04:53:25 pm

I don't know what he started out thinking when he came up with the original idea but there's no way he believed Batteriser worked as claimed when those two videos were made. No Sir. Nope.

I seem to recall even the engineer driving the oscilloscope for Bob in the video response looked deeply uncomfortable, and I don't think that was just from being camera shy.

He knew his career prospects as an electronics engineer were about to be destroyed?

Maybe we should get in touch with him. We figured out who he was (somewhere in this thread).

If we can get him to talk openly on video it might restore his career prospects.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rx8pilot on April 03, 2016, 06:16:02 pm

If consumers put these n their remote controls and other devices that last for years - they would never know it did not work and Batteriser would have long ago spent the profits from that.

The the common person, electricity and electronics are black magic. It's an easy scam.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 04, 2016, 12:02:41 am

Quote from: DJohn on April 02, 2016, 03:48:38 pm

Quote from: AF6LJ on April 02, 2016, 02:47:10 pm

At this point; is this guy just plain stupid thinking his idea would work?

I think that's how it started.  If you don't know much about batteries, or the difference between voltage and power, and you make the mistake of measuring the unloaded voltage of a 'dead' battery thinking it's the cut-off voltage of the device, and you don't stop to think "wouldn't someone have done this already?", then it sounds like a great idea.
The 800% claim is exactly what you get if you make all those mistakes.  You start with a nominal 1.5V (don't measure it, that's what's written on the battery).  Run your device until it stops.  Take the battery out and measure the voltage.  1.4V!  It's hardly used anything!  If we can boost it back up to 1.5V, we can keep going.  Between 0.6V and 1.4V is another 8 steps of 0.1V.
But it must have become clear to them long ago that it couldn't possibly work.  I don't know what they're doing now.

Yes, and all the evidence points toward this as an explanation. The number of times they have changed their story and revised their battery voltage cutoff point theory shows it.
e.g. IIRC, the patent says 1.4V and makes no mention of unloaded voltage. The campaign originally said 1.4V in some places and then 1.3V, but still no mention of open circuit voltage testing. Then they changed their claim to 1.3V. Then only after all that they finally admitted they measure the battery voltage unloaded. Then they had to admit what it goes down to under load, but still had to refuse to admit that's the correct way to measure it otherwise they would lose face. So then they doubled down and produced the infamous monkey video with it's absurd claims and hand waving.
After engineers still laughed at them they doubled down again and produced the snail video and the bogus GPS testing videos.

For those following from the beginning it's obvious they knew nothing about battery technology or proper measurement, and they got called out on it. Their responses have been classic weasel responses and intimidation to silence critics. But of course it all backfired spectacularly.

I really still do believe they originally had honest intentions, and thought they were on winning idea. Unfortunately for them, engineering reality has a habit of biting flawed ideas in the arse.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 04, 2016, 12:13:18 am

Quote from: rich on April 03, 2016, 05:09:45 pm

Not relevant to pre-production prototypes, but still my favourite smoking gun quote:
Dec 22nd 2015: "The Batteriser final assembly is underway and packaging is nearly complete."

For that to be true, you must have had pre-productions units done and tested to satisfaction. Yet 3 months after that statement not even a single photo has been shown after countless requests.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on April 04, 2016, 12:34:11 am

Quote from: EEVblog on April 04, 2016, 12:13:18 am

Quote from: rich on April 03, 2016, 05:09:45 pm

Not relevant to pre-production prototypes, but still my favourite smoking gun quote:
Dec 22nd 2015: "The Batteriser final assembly is underway and packaging is nearly complete."

For that to be true, you must have had pre-productions units done and tested to satisfaction. Yet 3 months after that statement not even a single photo has been shown after countless requests.

Remind me, was that before or after the 800% bullshit landslip?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on April 04, 2016, 02:53:33 am

Confirming "final assembly was underway" was exactly once sentence before continuing with
Dec 22: "Unfortunately, due to a tragic heavy landslide in Shenzhen, China  this week,  we are now facing additional slight delays. " ... "We are continuing to communicate with our Contract manufacturing partners in Shenzhen every day. As of today, we are pleased to have received news from Shenzhen that our partners will do their best to ship Batteriser to our designated warehouse in the US within the next couple weeks. "

Seeing as I'm posting summaries, it descends into the following Q1 2016 lowlights:
Feb 10: "While facing the challenge of working during the Chinese New Year holiday season, two of our executive team members have been in China and Taiwan working very closely with our contract manufacturer these past few weeks" ... "As a result of this productive collaboration and our team’s diligence, our Contract Manufacturer has confirmed their commitment to ship Batterisers this coming March"
Feb 17: "Sure, William, we can certainly update with more Batteriser photos"

Then: Bob said nothing.
Then: Bob said nothing, but louder this time.*

April 1st: "I will be heading to China to work with the team to expedite the shipping of Batterisers"



[* hat tip to the late, great, Terry Pratchett.]

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 04, 2016, 03:26:17 am

Indeed.

The silence is deafening.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on April 04, 2016, 06:07:21 am

Quote from: EEVblog on April 04, 2016, 12:02:41 am

Quote from: DJohn on April 02, 2016, 03:48:38 pm

Quote from: AF6LJ on April 02, 2016, 02:47:10 pm

At this point; is this guy just plain stupid thinking his idea would work?

I think that's how it started.  If you don't know much about batteries, or the difference between voltage and power, and you make the mistake of measuring the unloaded voltage of a 'dead' battery thinking it's the cut-off voltage of the device, and you don't stop to think "wouldn't someone have done this already?", then it sounds like a great idea.
The 800% claim is exactly what you get if you make all those mistakes.  You start with a nominal 1.5V (don't measure it, that's what's written on the battery).  Run your device until it stops.  Take the battery out and measure the voltage.  1.4V!  It's hardly used anything!  If we can boost it back up to 1.5V, we can keep going.  Between 0.6V and 1.4V is another 8 steps of 0.1V.
But it must have become clear to them long ago that it couldn't possibly work.  I don't know what they're doing now.

Yes, and all the evidence points toward this as an explanation. The number of times they have changed their story and revised their battery voltage cutoff point theory shows it.
e.g. IIRC, the patent says 1.4V and makes no mention of unloaded voltage. The campaign originally said 1.4V in some places and then 1.3V, but still no mention of open circuit voltage testing. Then they changed their claim to 1.3V. Then only after all that they finally admitted they measure the battery voltage unloaded. Then they had to admit what it goes down to under load, but still had to refuse to admit that's the correct way to measure it otherwise they would lose face. So then they doubled down and produced the infamous monkey video with it's absurd claims and hand waving.
After engineers still laughed at them they doubled down again and produced the snail video and the bogus GPS testing videos.

For those following from the beginning it's obvious they knew nothing about battery technology or proper measurement, and they got called out on it. Their responses have been classic weasel responses and intimidation to silence critics. But of course it all backfired spectacularly.

I really still do believe they originally had honest intentions, and thought they were on winning idea. Unfortunately for them, engineering reality has a habit of biting flawed ideas in the arse.

...and what about all that stuff about their offices being burgled for their intellectual property??!!  :palm: :-DD

Nobody would really want any of their IP, as even calling it that is a catachresis or misnomer...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 04, 2016, 06:11:15 am

Quote from: samgab on April 04, 2016, 06:07:21 am

...and what about all that stuff about their offices being burgled for their intellectual property??!!  :palm: :-DD

Nobody would really want any of their IP, as even calling it that is a catachresis or misnomer...

From the evidence we have at hand, it would seem their intellectual property would be about two reams of blank photocopy paper...

... but not worth as much.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 04, 2016, 06:21:42 am

** Batteroo - please prove me wrong.  PLEASE!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 04, 2016, 06:38:05 am

Quote from: samgab on April 04, 2016, 06:07:21 am

...and what about all that stuff about their offices being burgled for their intellectual property??!!  :palm: :-DD

They may have been burgled, but it wasn't Big Battery desperately trying to get their hands on Batteroo technology.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 04, 2016, 06:53:04 am

Quote from: DJohn on April 02, 2016, 03:48:38 pm

If you don't know much about batteries, or the difference between voltage and power, and you make the mistake of measuring the unloaded voltage of a 'dead' battery thinking it's the cut-off voltage of the device, and you don't stop to think "wouldn't someone have done this already?", then it sounds like a great idea.

That, and watching too many "joule thief" videos on Youtube.

Quote from: DJohn on April 02, 2016, 03:48:38 pm

But it must have become clear to them long ago that it couldn't possibly work.

It must have been clear long before the IGG campaign, and long before they started going around tech magazines showing off their prototype.

This is why I say it's deliberate fraud.

Quote from: DJohn on April 02, 2016, 03:48:38 pm

I don't know what they're doing now.

Quote from: DJohn on April 02, 2016, 03:48:38 pm

There is a chance that they actually do have a product (just not one that will do what they claim).  And it's not without value - if they can find an application for a tiny boost converter that runs down to 0.6V, their investors could still make some money. 

I dunno. How many microscopic* 0.6 volt power sources are out there? (0.6V with plenty of current...)

And if they exist, why wouldn't you just put two or three of them in series?  :-//


(*) I assume the power source must be microscopic otherwise saving a few cubic millimeters in the boost converter doesn't make any sense.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 04, 2016, 06:57:57 am

Quote from: rich on April 04, 2016, 02:53:33 am

Seeing as I'm posting summaries, it descends into the following Q1 2016 lowlights:
Feb 10: "While facing the challenge of working during the Chinese New Year holiday season, two of our executive team members have been in China and Taiwan working very closely with our contract manufacturer these past few weeks" ... "As a result of this productive collaboration and our team’s diligence...."

Manufactured in China and Taiwan? A device with four components on a PCB?

(or was it five components? Their chip, an inductor, two capacitors...)

Maybe they went to Taiwan for the local nightlife, spend some of that hard-earned VC money.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on April 04, 2016, 07:30:58 am

Does anyone here on the forum, live or work near Batteroo in CA?
Perhaps a bit of subterfuge, acting like a naive 'general' exporter/agent, or similar that has read the'good' press, and would like to discuss opportunities with Batteroo...

Of course, you know nothing about batteries, but like the commercial potential if it's as good as they say it is.  Ask for a demo, appear impressed, check on availability, models AA, AAA, C etc.  What devices does it work with (toys, cameras etc).

Ideally with a pen recorder or similar, or at least a notepad to take notes - just like a really interested businessman, or investigative journalist.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on April 04, 2016, 09:25:05 am

Quote from: SL4P on April 04, 2016, 07:30:58 am

Does anyone here on the forum, live or work near Batteroo in CA?
Perhaps a bit of subterfuge, acting like a naive 'general' exporter/agent, or similar that has read the'good' press, and would like to discuss opportunities with Batteroo...

Of course, you know nothing about batteries, but like the commercial potential if it's as good as they say it is.  Ask for a demo, appear impressed, check on availability, models AA, AAA, C etc.  What devices does it work with (toys, cameras etc).

Ideally with a pen recorder or similar, or at least a notepad to take notes - just like a really interested businessman, or investigative journalist.

Except someone over there reads this thread, so the jig would be up.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on April 04, 2016, 09:26:34 am

Quote from: Fungus on April 04, 2016, 06:38:05 am

Quote from: samgab on April 04, 2016, 06:07:21 am

...and what about all that stuff about their offices being burgled for their intellectual property??!!  :palm: :-DD

They may have been burgled, but it wasn't Big Battery desperately trying to get their hands on Batteroo technology.

Leave it to Bob to take "Joule Thief" literally.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on April 04, 2016, 09:27:24 am

Greed and ego are powerful forces!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on April 04, 2016, 12:13:18 pm

Quote from: Fungus on April 04, 2016, 06:57:57 am

Quote from: rich on April 04, 2016, 02:53:33 am

Seeing as I'm posting summaries, it descends into the following Q1 2016 lowlights:
Feb 10: "While facing the challenge of working during the Chinese New Year holiday season, two of our executive team members have been in China and Taiwan working very closely with our contract manufacturer these past few weeks" ... "As a result of this productive collaboration and our team’s diligence...."

Manufactured in China and Taiwan? A device with four components on a PCB?

(or was it five components? Their chip, an inductor, two capacitors...)

Maybe they went to Taiwan for the local nightlife, spend some of that hard-earned VC money.

I understood that update as implying that their CM is HQd in Taiwan but actual manufacturing would take place in China... so a visit to Taiwan to talk business and then to China to talk to the manufacturing team on the ground. I suppose that's probably what Bob is used to from his work at Flextronics...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on April 04, 2016, 12:37:34 pm

Quote from: Fungus on April 03, 2016, 06:14:03 pm

If we can get him to talk openly on video it might restore his career prospects.  :popcorn:

Uncle Bob probably made him along with others sign an NDA.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on April 04, 2016, 01:34:06 pm

Quote from: rich on April 03, 2016, 05:09:45 pm

Not relevant to pre-production prototypes, but still my favourite smoking gun quote:
Dec 22nd 2015: "The Batteriser final assembly is underway and packaging is nearly complete."

That one was more typical Batteroo weasel words...  They imply that they are building the actual product and putting it in the packaging to ship.  What they really meant was that the design of those plastic cases that you get to hold your shiny new Batterisers when not in use (or en route to the landfill, for example) was nearly complete and that they were entering the "final assembly" phase of making their actual product. 

Of course, we all know that  the "final assembly" phase for them seems to be everything including designing the final product, sourcing the final silicon, getting it built, etc.  Pretty much everything after the "brilliant idea bulb coming on" phase and "viral marketing wankery" phases....  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on April 04, 2016, 02:19:26 pm

Saying he's going to China personally buys him another couple of months. He can keep sprinkling vague updates (no photos) over the coming months, giving the appearance progress is being made. Then, disaster strikes! Something went horribly wrong in the production process! We ran out of money, sorry.  Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 04, 2016, 02:34:02 pm

Quote from: quad on April 04, 2016, 02:19:26 pm

Saying he's going to China personally buys him another couple of months. He can keep sprinkling vague updates (no photos) over the coming months, giving the appearance progress is being made. Then, disaster strikes! Something went horribly wrong in the production process! We ran out of money, sorry.  Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

I think he's teaching courses this semester, he can't stay long

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on April 04, 2016, 03:16:46 pm

Quote from: drussell on April 04, 2016, 01:34:06 pm

Quote from: rich on April 03, 2016, 05:09:45 pm

Not relevant to pre-production prototypes, but still my favourite smoking gun quote:
Dec 22nd 2015: "The Batteriser final assembly is underway and packaging is nearly complete."

That one was more typical Batteroo weasel words...  They imply that they are building the actual product and putting it in the packaging to ship.  What they really meant was that the design of those plastic cases that you get to hold your shiny new Batterisers when not in use (or en route to the landfill, for example) was nearly complete and that they were entering the "final assembly" phase of making their actual product. 

Of course, we all know that  the "final assembly" phase for them seems to be everything including designing the final product, sourcing the final silicon, getting it built, etc.  Pretty much everything after the "brilliant idea bulb coming on" phase and "viral marketing wankery" phases....  :palm:

He may have only wanted to imply "final assembly is underway" but he accidentally said it out loud.
"packaging is nearly complete" could refer to case design if it wasn't for his much older statement:

Late Oct/ early Nov: "We have also finalized the protective cases (recyclable material) that your Batterisers will be shipping in."

so the 2nd clause may have only meant protective case manufacture was nearly complete but it's still a statement that they had Batterisers and Cases in December.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on April 04, 2016, 05:05:13 pm

There is still hope for them... They could follow these people and do what is right.

https://gearjunkie.com/refunded-triton-artificial-gills-campaign-update

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on April 04, 2016, 05:21:48 pm

Quote from: meeder on April 04, 2016, 05:05:13 pm

There is still hope for them... They could follow these people and do what is right.

https://gearjunkie.com/refunded-triton-artificial-gills-campaign-update (https://gearjunkie.com/refunded-triton-artificial-gills-campaign-update)

Well unfortunately, these guys just re-started their campaign. They did refund all backers of the original campaign. But after explaining they were using liquid oxygen containers, they at least gave backers the option to pledge again if they still felt confident about the campaign. (Even though I still doubt that this thing will ever come to life...)

Too late for Bob to do the same I guess. Money's probably already gone...

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/triton-world-s-first-artificial-gills-re-breather/x/10890115#/updates (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/triton-world-s-first-artificial-gills-re-breather/x/10890115#/updates)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AF6LJ on April 04, 2016, 09:41:27 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 02, 2016, 07:24:18 pm

Quote from: AF6LJ on April 02, 2016, 02:47:10 pm

SO;
At this point; is this guy just plain stupid thinking his idea would work?
OR;
Was his intent to rip off his backers?

He has a BS, MS, and PhD in electrical engineering, is a professor at a Uni, and was in the tech sector for a while, his brother has a BS CE and a MS EE and is in the tech sector. Not so knowledgeable PhDs do exist though (really it's not that uncommon, especially if they're outside of their PhD work which is usually pretty narrow). A 3rd possibility is inventor blindness or whatever (believing it works because one wants it to work despite reality). That is actually really common. But at this point, most people would be aware I'd think.

Also, the concept probably does work at some level... but probably not on devices that were properly designed in the first place.

I do believe the concept does work to some degree; perhaps just enough to make the nearly perfect scam.

80% of the people on the planet work from the assumption that ALL PEOPLE are basically good and have good intentions; I on the other hand believe that 20% of the population pray on the other 80%. This is based on my own experience over the last six decades. I think it was a well thought out scam from Day One. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AF6LJ on April 04, 2016, 09:47:09 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 03, 2016, 08:30:24 am

Quote from: AF6LJ on April 02, 2016, 02:47:10 pm

SO;
At this point; is this guy just plain stupid thinking his idea would work?

Yes, demonstrably so.

Quote

OR;
Was his intent to rip off his backers?

He likely thought people would never to do the proper testing required to show it's claims are BS. They'd get something out of it and then just toss them.
He did not count on the entire engineering community taking him to task over the grossly exaggerated claims, and becoming the laughing stock of the industry.

I was very interested in seeing what you thought Dave.

I could believe your theory for what transpired regarding the evolution of this product. I have seen otherwise smart people suffered from impaired judgment from drinking their own Kool-Aid.

I suppose we will never know as this person has walked a long distance on his current path and saving face would require him to not admit he was wrong.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on April 04, 2016, 11:00:50 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 04, 2016, 02:34:02 pm

I think he's teaching courses this semester, he can't stay long

If so then he will be able to "prove" that he can get 800% out of a battery.

What school would hire him?  (ie what school to avoid ?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: zal42 on April 05, 2016, 02:12:06 pm

Quote from: AF6LJ on April 04, 2016, 09:47:09 pm

I have seen otherwise smart people suffered from impaired judgment from drinking their own Kool-Aid.

I suppose we will never know as this person has walked a long distance on his current path and saving face would require him to not admit he was wrong.

You seem to be assuming a "good faith" error, that the problem is one of stupidity or delusion rather than fraud. Personally, I think that all of the available evidence points emphatically to intentional fraud.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on April 05, 2016, 02:41:33 pm

Quote from: zal42 on April 05, 2016, 02:12:06 pm

Quote from: AF6LJ on April 04, 2016, 09:47:09 pm

I have seen otherwise smart people suffered from impaired judgment from drinking their own Kool-Aid.

I suppose we will never know as this person has walked a long distance on his current path and saving face would require him to not admit he was wrong.

You seem to be assuming a "good faith" error, that the problem is one of stupidity or delusion rather than fraud. Personally, I think that all of the available evidence points emphatically to intentional fraud.

I agree.  There is simply no way PhD EEs could be so completely clueless about alkaline cells to even think that this product could work as claimed.

Scam.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 05, 2016, 03:41:32 pm

Quote

“When we get a new battery it is 1.5 volts, when we use it in a device it goes down to 1.3 volts under load condition, at that point we consider it to be dead and throw it away,” explains Dr. Kiumars Parvin, Professor of Physics at San Jose State University. “We tested the Batteriser sleeve in our lab and we confirmed that the Batteriser taps into the 80% of energy that is usually thrown away.”

What a way to ruin your credibility  :palm:
Even Frankie had to later admit in a video that it actually requires a special case of a 1.1V dip from a pulse under load at the 20% discharge point in order to get the BS 80% unused they have used from day one :palm:
https://youtu.be/622uCZ_pE0w?t=37m

Thus embarrassing his friend Dr Parvin and showing his professional testimonial to be laughably wrong.
It seriously couldn't get any funnier if Batteroo was run by the Three Stooges.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on April 05, 2016, 11:30:16 pm

Yeah, of course it's a scam. Well, one can't be 100% sure of anything, but all the evidence pointed in that direction from the start and the more information we got the more certain it got. I don't understand why a lot of people tend to insist on believing scammers, it seems to be a common phenomenon. I've seen it happen to people who really should know better. Maybe it's not wanting to admit one has been fooled, not wanting to believe people who seems ordinary can be lying or just wanting to believe in fairytales because they are more exciting than the truth. :-//

Then there's always the apologists, trying to come up with excuses of how they didn't really do what they obviously did and so on, also a weird phenomena. I believe in "assumed guilty unless proven otherwise" and all that but in this case everything points to them simply trying to scam people on indiegogo with a bs product. Looks like lots of people do that successfully and get away with it. These guys decided to try their luck.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on April 06, 2016, 12:52:07 am

At the risk of not adding anything substantial to the discussion (because we've covered this countless times before)...I'm willing to give the guys the benefit of the doubt and think that initially they thought they were onto something they could sell...certainly they had to REALLY stretch things to get the stats they claimed--assume worst case scenarios, use junk science and math to come up with their (1.5 - 0.6) / (1.5 - 1.4) = 800% (or however they did get that number) claim.  Nobody can claim to know what their intentions were at that stage...

...but I think one thing is 100% clear.  Once Dave exposed the flaws in their methodology, design, and claims, and the EE community backed him up, it was at that point that it unequivocally moved into scam territory.  Sure, the Roos probably felt they had to save face (what with their 500 patents and PhDs and awards, etc.), but every day they perpetuate the illusion that their invention will actually do what they claim and that they are actually building & eventually shipping something, is a flat out lie.  They have long since passed the point where they could get out of this mess with at least some dignity intact.  But at this point, it's impossible.  They are going to have to run this thing into the ground, or maybe they'll just silently go away and hope the backers eventually get bored of posting, since they know they have no redress.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: zal42 on April 06, 2016, 01:31:39 am

Quote from: apis on April 05, 2016, 11:30:16 pm

I don't understand why a lot of people tend to insist on believing scammers, it seems to be a common phenomenon.

It's basic human nature. Nobody wants to admit they got taken, because they are afraid that they'll look stupid. And lots of people seem to assume that about people who get scammed, too. It completely ignores two other truths about people: that everyone can be scammed, and that the smarter you are the more effectively you can be scammed.

This is so fundamental that people engaging in fraud count on it, of course, but so do lots of businesses that aren't straight-up thieves. For example, people who buy an expensive "elite" stereo system only to find that it's not any better than a cheaper one will generally react not by getting mad about overpaying, but by hardening their commitment to the correctness of their choice -- and even try to talk others into making the same choice.

This effect is pretty much the entire reason that "boutique" stores of any sort can stay in business.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on April 06, 2016, 02:45:56 am

Quote from: AF6LJ on April 04, 2016, 09:47:09 pm

I suppose we will never know as this person has walked a long distance on his current path and saving face would require him to not admit he was wrong.

His voltage path, however, is about to take a deep dive...

:-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on April 06, 2016, 04:53:38 am

Quote from: zal42 on April 06, 2016, 01:31:39 am

It completely ignores two other truths about people: that everyone can be scammed, and that the smarter you are the more effectively you can be scammed.

There's smart (i.e.: knowing a lot) and then there's being bright (knowing a lot, having common sense and being able to think, analyse and adapt). I come across bright people fairly infrequently.

I know a lot of smart people but when it comes to critical thinking, they are lost. An example is a friend of mine who is quite articulate and educated failed to see how his $100+ IEC power cable was a complete waste of money (yes, he is an audiophool). Failing to admit being duped seems to be a common trait in "smart" people.

I don't agree that everyone can be scammed however. It's a bit like saying everyone can be hypnotised, in that it relies on the ability of the scammer/hypnotist to be "better than" the target. If everyone employed some basic "checks and balances" to their decision making, no one would get scammed. To me it's quite logical, sort of like driving a car; "If intersection isn't clear, do not proceed, wait until intersection is clear". Simples.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: vsboost on April 06, 2016, 06:01:19 am

People asking for money back  :-DD
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/comments (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/comments)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 06, 2016, 09:18:55 am

Quote from: lpickup on April 06, 2016, 12:52:07 am

Sure, the Roos probably felt they had to save face

It's a national icon and it appears on our coat of arms - including our 50 cent piece - but when Roos become a problem, we have a cull.

You can also find Roo on the menu of several restaurants in Sydney - but a serve of the ones I think you're talking about would be really hard to swallow.......

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 06, 2016, 10:34:20 am

Quote from: vsboost on April 06, 2016, 06:01:19 am

People asking for money back  :-DD
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/comments (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/comments)

People have been asking for their money back for months. Some even get emails indicating it will be done, but not a single person has been refunded yet to public knowledge.
The thing with crowd funding campaigns is that most people will forgive you if you don't deliver, but only if you are honest and transparent being having tried and where the money went. Batteroo are taking the guaranteed inciting pitch fork lynch mob approach, and it's baffling as to why they choose that path.

Bob for examples says he's on his way to China. Well, how about an update each day with photos of him actually there, take a few minutes to do a video and say "Hi, I'm here and I'm on the case". Simple stuff.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on April 06, 2016, 12:07:18 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 06, 2016, 10:34:20 am

Bob for examples says he's on his way to China. Well, how about an update each day with photos of him actually there, take a few minutes to do a video and say "Hi, I'm here and I'm on the case". Simple stuff.

He is probably still in the US and they don't have a green screen to get away with it  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: zal42 on April 06, 2016, 12:55:25 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on April 06, 2016, 04:53:38 am

If everyone employed some basic "checks and balances" to their decision making, no one would get scammed. To me it's quite logical, sort of like driving a car; "If intersection isn't clear, do not proceed, wait until intersection is clear". Simples.

True, if everyone were completely logical and had perfect information, nobody would get scammed. But people are not completely logical and do not have perfect information.

However, the line of reasoning you just articulated happens to be the exact line of reasoning that makes intelligent people more effective marks. Note that I mean "effective" in a particular way: not that they are more likely to fall for a given scam, but once they have fallen for a scam they are more likely to not believe they got taken.

This is just a variation on another human thing that has been known for a long time: the more intelligent a person is, the easier it is for them to adopt and believe really weird things. It's because smart people are not robots and are influenced by emotions just like everybody, but smart people are better able to come up with a line of reasoning that enables them to come to the conclusion that they have already decided they want to come to.

This is such a potent issue that many of the mechanisms for how science is done are directly intended to try to counteract that problem (through peer reviews, etc.) -- because if you do nothing about it, researchers will tend to "prove" the hypotheses they want to be true rather than the ones that actually are.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 06, 2016, 01:09:10 pm

Looks like Bob finally posted a proper update!

Here he is just after landing at Shenzhen airport:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215146;image)


And here in downtown Shenzhen, checking out the sights and sounds of China:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215148;image)


And finally: Here he is on the Batteriser production line, everybody here is hard at work making your Batterisers!
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215152;image)

(Bob told me one of the workers on the left is confident of shipping some Batterisers next month)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on April 06, 2016, 01:12:11 pm

 :-DD :clap: :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on April 06, 2016, 01:23:23 pm

Wow!!  :o He's REALLY there! :D

McBryce.

(That's almost as bad as my attempts at Photoshop!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on April 06, 2016, 01:25:51 pm

Looks like as much effort has been spent on that photoshop as producing the batteriser...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 06, 2016, 01:28:06 pm

Darn, looks like the facebook page is now moderated. ("Owner will review your post...")

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 06, 2016, 01:31:06 pm

Prevents posts from seeing the light of day.

Saves the problem of them getting captured in a screen shot before they get removed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 06, 2016, 03:26:30 pm

Quote from: Brumby on April 06, 2016, 01:31:06 pm

Prevents posts from seeing the light of day.
Saves the problem of them getting captured in a screen shot before they get removed.

Why change now after all this time of people capturing and posting messages before they are deleted?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on April 06, 2016, 03:45:12 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 06, 2016, 03:26:30 pm

Quote from: Brumby on April 06, 2016, 01:31:06 pm

Prevents posts from seeing the light of day.
Saves the problem of them getting captured in a screen shot before they get removed.

Why change now after all this time of people capturing and posting messages before they are deleted?

At some point it's easier to review messages before publishing instead of deleting negative messages already published. Too much bad PR for Bob.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 06, 2016, 04:10:12 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 06, 2016, 03:26:30 pm

Quote from: Brumby on April 06, 2016, 01:31:06 pm

Prevents posts from seeing the light of day.
Saves the problem of them getting captured in a screen shot before they get removed.

Why change now after all this time of people capturing and posting messages before they are deleted?

Sharp increase in number of unwanted posts?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on April 06, 2016, 05:15:35 pm

Quote from: StuUK on April 06, 2016, 01:25:51 pm

Looks like as much effort has been spent on that photoshop as producing the batteriser...

i think you are wrong, that job has had a lot more work done than the batterkiller.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 06, 2016, 06:24:09 pm

Bob narrowly escapes a deadly landslide that might have delayed Batteriser. Luckily he plays sports.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215194;image)

Ali wasn't invited on the trip to China, he had to stay home in Milpitas.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215196;image)

 :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on April 07, 2016, 12:01:52 am

Quote from: Halcyon on April 06, 2016, 04:53:38 am

Quote from: zal42 on April 06, 2016, 01:31:39 am

It completely ignores two other truths about people: that everyone can be scammed, and that the smarter you are the more effectively you can be scammed.

There's smart (i.e.: knowing a lot) and then there's being bright (knowing a lot, having common sense and being able to think, analyse and adapt). I come across bright people fairly infrequently.

I know a lot of smart people but when it comes to critical thinking, they are lost. An example is a friend of mine who is quite articulate and educated failed to see how his $100+ IEC power cable was a complete waste of money (yes, he is an audiophool). Failing to admit being duped seems to be a common trait in "smart" people.

I don't agree that everyone can be scammed however. It's a bit like saying everyone can be hypnotised, in that it relies on the ability of the scammer/hypnotist to be "better than" the target. If everyone employed some basic "checks and balances" to their decision making, no one would get scammed. To me it's quite logical, sort of like driving a car; "If intersection isn't clear, do not proceed, wait until intersection is clear". Simples.

But that's the thing. You can see scammy products in the fields you know well, but are likely other fields where you don't know enough to steer clear. You've likely purchased BS products in the past, without realizing it - the world is full of them.

Now i'm sure you would contest that, of course, you would never get taken. That's likely precisely how your friend felt, and you're no more likely to be right.

Doctors are notorious for this. Being a doctor, or even worse, a surgeon, almost requires a massive ego as part of the job. You have to be confident or you will fail. It also means they firmly believe that they are also experts in every other field, and refuse to hear otherwise. This causes many headaches for the unfortunate people who have to work with them. Work with IT in a hospital and you will quickly come to regret your life choices.

In much of the rest of the sciences, Engineers have a reputation for buying into a lot of kooky things.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 07, 2016, 01:14:16 am

Quote from: Brumby on April 06, 2016, 01:31:06 pm

Prevents posts from seeing the light of day.
Saves the problem of them getting captured in a screen shot before they get removed.

Why change now after all this time of people capturing and posting messages before they are deleted?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on April 07, 2016, 01:38:54 am

Quote from: EEVblog

   Why change now after all this time of people capturing and posting messages before they are deleted? 

Maybe the new rumoured 1200% Hyperionizer ?? :-)
Edit: I mean, you got away with a HUGE sum the first time, why stop? No laws broken, no one will come after you !!
PLUS !! There's still 7 billion more suckers out there, give or take a few !!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on April 07, 2016, 01:55:07 am

They obviously have nothing good to announce to pacify investors.
DC to DC converters are notoriously difficult to design. The kind of performance they're after would be at the cutting edge of current technology and may take a long time to perfect, if at all possible.
SKTA hasn't given them the boot yet, so something might still be in the works.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: station240 on April 07, 2016, 04:03:45 am

Fungus please can you do one of the whole team in camp dumpster.  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 07, 2016, 08:18:43 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on April 07, 2016, 01:55:07 am

They obviously have nothing good to announce to pacify investors.

You don't need to announce anything. Just posts photos that prove something is being done.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on April 07, 2016, 10:46:40 am

Quote from: EEVblog on April 07, 2016, 08:18:43 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on April 07, 2016, 01:55:07 am

They obviously have nothing good to announce to pacify investors.

You don't need to announce anything. Just posts photos that prove something is being done.

Therein lies the problem.  Nothing is being done.  There is no CM in China.  They are not manufacturing anything, and never intended to.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on April 07, 2016, 11:48:08 am

How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

Is there a product to debunk?

Yes
No

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on April 07, 2016, 01:17:09 pm

One thing that concerns me is Bob's patent application: (apologies if this has been raised already)

http://www.freshpatents.com/-dt20150219ptan20150048785.php (http://www.freshpatents.com/-dt20150219ptan20150048785.php)

Tucked away in it are these paragraphs:

Quote

In another embodiment, a voltage regulation circuit is incorporated within a battery-powered device. The voltage regulation circuit is configured to extend the life of one or more batteries used to power the battery-powered device by outputting a voltage that is equal to or exceeds a minimum voltage required to operate the battery-powered device normally even when the one or more batteries output a voltage that is less than the minimum voltage required to operate the battery-powered device normally.

and

Quote

In another aspect, a method is provided for extending the life of a battery. The method includes receiving a battery electrical power output from the battery. The battery electrical power output has a battery output voltage that decreases from a battery first output voltage to a battery second output voltage. The battery electrical power output is used to drive a converter that outputs a converter electrical power having a converter output voltage greater than the battery second output voltage. The converter electrical power is output from one or more output terminals configured to interface with one or more input terminals of a battery powered device.

Isn't this saying that if you have any battery powered device and it has a switching regulator that boosts the voltage to a constant level, then Bob can claim the idea is his invention?

I know the idea is absurd, but once you have a patent, you can scare many companies into paying royalties. Is this the real goal - appear to have an invention of a battery sleeve to boost batteries, but in the process, get a patent that states you invented the whole concept of a switching boost circuit running off a battery in a device?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on April 07, 2016, 01:38:09 pm

I think the fact that this method has been used for years by practically the entire industry would make enforcement of that patent pretty much impossible.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on April 07, 2016, 02:05:05 pm

Quote from: amspire on April 07, 2016, 01:17:09 pm

One thing that concerns me is Bob's patent application: (apologies if this has been raised already)

http://www.freshpatents.com/-dt20150219ptan20150048785.php (http://www.freshpatents.com/-dt20150219ptan20150048785.php)

Tucked away in it are these paragraphs:

Quote

In another embodiment, a voltage regulation circuit is incorporated within a battery-powered device. The voltage regulation circuit is configured to extend the life of one or more batteries used to power the battery-powered device by outputting a voltage that is equal to or exceeds a minimum voltage required to operate the battery-powered device normally even when the one or more batteries output a voltage that is less than the minimum voltage required to operate the battery-powered device normally.

and

Quote

In another aspect, a method is provided for extending the life of a battery. The method includes receiving a battery electrical power output from the battery. The battery electrical power output has a battery output voltage that decreases from a battery first output voltage to a battery second output voltage. The battery electrical power output is used to drive a converter that outputs a converter electrical power having a converter output voltage greater than the battery second output voltage. The converter electrical power is output from one or more output terminals configured to interface with one or more input terminals of a battery powered device.

Isn't this saying that if you have any battery powered device and it has a switching regulator that boosts the voltage to a constant level, then Bob can claim the idea is his invention?

I know the idea is absurd, but once you have a patent, you can scare many companies into paying royalties. Is this the real goal - appear to have an invention of a battery sleeve to boost batteries, but in the process, get a patent that states you invented the whole concept of a switching boost circuit running off a battery in a device?

I thought the patent was supposedly all about the converter packaging (the batteriser), not about when it is inserted (incorporated?) into a battery powered device (probes the monkey). A key phrase:

Quote

The converter electrical power is output from one or more output terminals configured to interface with one or more input terminals of a battery powered device.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on April 07, 2016, 02:14:47 pm

Quote from: rich on April 07, 2016, 02:05:05 pm

I thought the patent was supposedly all about the converter packaging (the batteriser), not about when it is inserted (incorporated?) into a battery powered device (probes the monkey). A key phrase:

Quote

The converter electrical power is output from one or more output terminals configured to interface with one or more input terminals of a battery powered device.

It includes the Batteriser concept, but it is not limited to that. It includes many embodiments including the concept of a voltage regulating circuit that boosts the battery voltage in a battery powered device.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on April 07, 2016, 04:11:31 pm

To infringe on a patient, you must infringe on all claims. If they have patented a battery sleeve with an integrated boost converter, than the only way to infringe on that patient is to make a battery sleeve with integrated boost converter. Any other boost converter is not a infringement.

This is why companies like Microsoft and Apple tend to get many many very specific patients, rather than a single big patient covering an entire device. For example, when Apple sued Samsung over patient infringement, they didn't claim they violated patients on a iPhone. They had patients such as Design Patent 504,889, for which the claims consist of a single sentence, describing a rectangular electronic device with rounded corners. Because the patient made no other claims, any rectangular device with rounded corners infringed on that patient.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: adprom on April 07, 2016, 05:42:19 pm

I just noticed this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SbgbLieXm4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SbgbLieXm4)

Is batteroo planning a 2nd marketing campaign using a different angle?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on April 07, 2016, 06:12:03 pm

Quote from: adprom on April 07, 2016, 05:42:19 pm

I just noticed this:

<youtube video>

Is batteroo planning a 2nd marketing campaign using a different angle?

Who in his/her right mind would use a flash light to photograph Lady Liberty or the sun? I bet not using flash light for making outside pictures like that saves another landfill of batteries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on April 07, 2016, 08:14:24 pm

Quote from: adprom on April 07, 2016, 05:42:19 pm

I just noticed this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SbgbLieXm4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SbgbLieXm4)

Is batteroo planning a 2nd marketing campaign using a different angle?

Oh FFS, they ditched the monkey for a batter-ROO.  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on April 07, 2016, 09:28:28 pm

Quote from: apis on April 05, 2016, 11:30:16 pm

the more information we got the more certain it got.

*The more "Update in a few weeks" that turned into month we got. The more certain it got.   :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on April 07, 2016, 10:19:00 pm

A picture tells a thousand words.

Bob is telling nothing.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215479;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on April 07, 2016, 10:49:29 pm

and his spelling is bad  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on April 07, 2016, 11:42:43 pm

NEW UPDATE!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215488;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215490;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215492;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215494;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 07, 2016, 11:47:36 pm

 :o

Wow, only took them 6 months or so to show real photos
Very interesting that they are going with the Batteriser name on the sleeve still, obviously they are not concerned about the Trademark dispute with Energizer

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lincoln on April 07, 2016, 11:48:19 pm

Holy shit, They do exist!! If don't get mine I am going to be so bummed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on April 08, 2016, 12:05:35 am

Quote from: lincoln on April 07, 2016, 11:48:19 pm

Holy shit, They do exist!!

Double holy shit...   :o

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rx8pilot on April 08, 2016, 12:13:11 am

Now....it is one thing to make a sleeve and another thing to make a sleeve that does what they claim it will do.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 12:17:44 am

Quote from: rx8pilot on April 08, 2016, 12:13:11 am

Now....it is one thing to make a sleeve and another thing to make a sleeve that does what they claim it will do.

The laws of engineering prevent it from doing the magic it claims to do.
I have no doubt at all it will work as boost converter, the only thing remains is to see how well.
Batteroo know very well once they ship a single unit the game is up, people will flog the arse out of this thing and get data that proves beyond all doubt how poorly it will perform in most applications.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on April 08, 2016, 12:20:06 am

 But note, he says the team is going to China soon - I thought Bob already was in China, per his own post?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on April 08, 2016, 01:05:36 am

Quote from: Mr.B on April 08, 2016, 12:05:35 am

Quote from: lincoln on April 07, 2016, 11:48:19 pm

Holy shit, They do exist!!

Double holy shit...   :o

Now, the question is *how many* are they manufacturing.  All of them? enough for the indegogo supports? only enough for the website orders? 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 08, 2016, 02:02:55 am

Am I missing something?  Here's what I see...

 - A small panel of 20 circular PCBs (my guess is an original prototyping panel)
 - A single panel of 64 (8 x 8 ) of what looks like finished product
 - One row of what looks like finished product in a jig

To me, this doesn't look like a manufacturing setup.  More like a prototyping and (maybe) process development setup.  I would have been more impressed with something that looked like an assembly line - or at least half a dozen panels.  This does not mean I say they won't ship a product, but I still have reservations.

The one thing these photos DO offer is a chance for all the Batteriser faithful to stand up and use them to beat all the skeptics around the head.  They have been in a vacuum for so long, I expect they will be flag waving like there's no tomorrow.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Stupid Beard on April 08, 2016, 02:12:58 am

Had a look at this thread to see what hilarity had ensued since last time I looked. Did not expect actual photos.

Besides renders, is that also the first time they've shown one that's not AA sized?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on April 08, 2016, 03:29:54 am

Quote from: quad on April 07, 2016, 11:42:43 pm

NEW UPDATE!
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215490;image)

Holy manufacturability clusterfucks!  The AAs are a train wreck 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 04:06:48 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on April 08, 2016, 03:29:54 am

Quote from: quad on April 07, 2016, 11:42:43 pm

NEW UPDATE!
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215490;image)

Holy manufacturability clusterfucks!  The AAs are a train wreck

Actually, look at the those two photos. On the large board I do not see any V groove marks on the panel to snap off the rows. But the other photo shows a row of AA's in some sort of assembly/test jig holder.
What's up with that?  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on April 08, 2016, 04:13:21 am

Quote from: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 04:06:48 am

What's up with that?  :-//

Smoke and mirrors maybe...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on April 08, 2016, 04:20:12 am

Looks like a welding jig to me.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on April 08, 2016, 04:25:11 am

Quote from: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 04:06:48 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on April 08, 2016, 03:29:54 am

Quote from: quad on April 07, 2016, 11:42:43 pm

NEW UPDATE!

Holy manufacturability clusterfucks!  The AAs are a train wreck

Actually, look at the those two photos. On the large board I do not see any V groove marks on the panel to snap off the rows. But the other photo shows a row of AA's in some sort of assembly/test jig holder.
What's up with that?  :-//

I thought those might be AAAs, but who knows.  The positions of the AAs are all over the place.  I'm assuming that they are reflowing the entire panel at once, which has to be a total circus.  I just can't believe anyone would think an array of tall heat sinks would reflow well.  The edges and the middle of the panel will see very different heat profiles.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on April 08, 2016, 04:27:37 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on April 08, 2016, 04:20:12 am

Looks like a welding jig to me.

Welding a piece of stainless to a copper trace would be a new one on me...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 08, 2016, 04:31:02 am

Are there one sided v-scores? If so, board might be flipped, v-score on other side? Or maybe using a depanelizer?

I might have bad eyes..... wheres the converter?
(http://i.imgur.com/tGeA0ud.png?1)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on April 08, 2016, 04:37:19 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on April 08, 2016, 04:27:37 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on April 08, 2016, 04:20:12 am

Looks like a welding jig to me.

Welding a piece of stainless to a copper trace would be a new one on me...

There may be an extra insert of stainless steel added for sturdiness. What do you suggest that jig is for then?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on April 08, 2016, 07:37:53 am

These still won't physically fit into probably 50% of devices.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ysjoelfir on April 08, 2016, 07:38:39 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 08, 2016, 04:31:02 am

Are there one sided v-scores? If so, board might be flipped, v-score on other side? Or maybe using a depanelizer?

I might have bad eyes..... wheres the converter?

If you look realy closely you can notice at least a "big" cap at the downright edge, just where the sleeve connects to the pcb, so I assume there is actually some circuitry on there. How well it works... we will see "soooooon"  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 08:08:25 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on April 08, 2016, 07:37:53 am

These still won't physically fit into probably 50% of devices.

Quite likely.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 08:21:10 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on April 08, 2016, 04:20:12 am

Looks like a welding jig to me.

Looks like two morse code keys stuck to a board with some Batteriser sleeves in the middle.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215490;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 08:58:25 am

These photos don't make any sense to me because there's no context in them.

When were they taken? Where were they taken? Why isn't Bob proudly holding them in his hand standing in front of the assembly line? That's what normal people would do.

They could be some photos the factory emailed to Bob I guess. OTOH they could be from a year ago when the original prototypes were manufactured. Time will tell  :-//

I still say it make no sense to manufacture anything, not with the army of bloggers waiting and the Energizer lawsuit hanging over them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on April 08, 2016, 09:00:36 am

Quote from: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 08:21:10 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on April 08, 2016, 04:20:12 am

Looks like a welding jig to me.

Looks like two morse code keys stuck to a board with some Batteriser sleeves in the middle.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215490;image)

Those are pressure clamps.  They cause a bottom plate to come up to push in the circuit board into the sleeve.  A prototype manufacturing device.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on April 08, 2016, 09:12:20 am

Looking at the array of populated sleeves - suggests manufacturing is a real pain in the ass (need for manually loaded prior to bonding)...?
I too was trying to figure out what the first image is showing... I suppose it looks 'technical', so some punters will be happy!
Credit to whoever went to the trouble of those mockups - since we already know the Batteriser won't work as claimed - regardless if how good the BS is. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 09:18:10 am

Note that the sleeves clearly say "Batteriser" - unlike the pics they've been showing lately which said Battfri5er (or something like that).
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215556;image)

My prediction:

a) These photos are from the original prototype run from about a year ago.
b) They're about to announce the Energiser lawsuit to the world.
c) The Energiser lawsuit means the entire imaginary production run will have to be "scrapped".
d) They won't have any money left to make any more Batterisers.
e) More VC money please!!!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on April 08, 2016, 09:20:49 am

Clamp it is:

(http://g03.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1gA9cHpXXXXabapXXq6xXFXXX2/Free-shipping-4-pcs-lot-CNC-Engraving-machine-clamp-pressure-device-clamp-pliers-vise-workpiece-holder.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 09:31:47 am

Quote from: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 08:58:25 am

These photos don't make any sense to me because there's no context in them.

That was my thought exactly.
Once again, the lack of detail that Bob provides says a lot.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 09:33:54 am

Quote from: Wytnucls on April 08, 2016, 09:20:49 am

Clamp it is:

OK, but why would you want to clamp them down that firmly?

Maybe that's the prototype for the machine that press-fits the sleeves onto the PCBs.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 09:37:54 am

Quote from: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 09:18:10 am

Note that the sleeves clearly say "Batteriser" - unlike the pics they've been showing lately which said Battfri5er (or something like that).

The latest photo and the update form a few months back about the final production sleeve, they look the same. So the new photo is at least after that date you'd have to guess.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215564;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 09:40:19 am

Quote from: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 09:33:54 am

Maybe that's the prototype for the machine that press-fits the sleeves onto the PCBs.

But the question either way is why does the clamp photos shows a single PCB strip, and the other panel photo shows a whole panel with no apparent way to break them off into those strips. It doesn't make sense.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 09:42:30 am

Quote from: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 09:37:54 am

Quote from: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 09:18:10 am

Note that the sleeves clearly say "Batteriser" - unlike the pics they've been showing lately which said Battfri5er (or something like that).

The latest photo and the update form a few months back about the final production sleeve, they look the same. So the new photo is at least after that date you'd have to guess.

They've looked like that for a long time. This is last July:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on April 08, 2016, 09:42:45 am

Prototyping is the likely answer. I have a hard time believing all the sleeves would be assembled that way.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 09:44:25 am

Quote from: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 09:18:10 am

c) The Energiser lawsuit means the entire imaginary production run will have to be "scrapped".

It's a demonstrable fact they knew about the lawsuit before they did this run, so they won't be able to use the excuse that they only just found out.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 09:45:27 am

Quote from: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 09:42:30 am

They've looked like that for a long time. This is last July:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/breakthrough-battery-gadget-answers-critics-125063020800.html)

Yep, well spotted.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 09:46:52 am

Quote from: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 09:40:19 am

Quote from: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 09:33:54 am

Maybe that's the prototype for the machine that press-fits the sleeves onto the PCBs.

But the question either way is why does the clamp photos shows a single PCB strip, and the other panel photo shows a whole panel with no apparent way to break them off into those strips. It doesn't make sense.

They're prototyping the press-fit die before they make the full-size machine that can do a whole panel at once...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on April 08, 2016, 09:48:26 am

Quote from: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 09:40:19 am

Quote from: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 09:33:54 am

Maybe that's the prototype for the machine that press-fits the sleeves onto the PCBs.

But the question either way is why does the clamp photos shows a single PCB strip, and the other panel photo shows a whole panel with no apparent way to break them off into those strips. It doesn't make sense.

It is a double side pcb, the v-cut may be on the other side.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 09:50:15 am

Quote from: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 09:44:25 am

Quote from: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 09:18:10 am

c) The Energiser lawsuit means the entire imaginary production run will have to be "scrapped".

It's a demonstrable fact they knew about the lawsuit before they did this run, so they won't be able to use the excuse that they only just found out.

Not many people know that outside this forum, but yeah people would find out. Maybe they're not planning to announce the Energiser lawsuit yet.

Still, everything about those photos says "prototyping", not "manufacturing". I'm picturing the following scene:

"What are we going to do about all the people clamoring for an update on IndieGoGo? Even IndieGoGo is hassling us!"

"Can't we post those old photos from last year's prototype phase and say they're from final production?"

"Great idea!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on April 08, 2016, 09:55:01 am

An anagram of Batteriser is "I err at best"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on April 08, 2016, 10:26:20 am

I think there might be a faint date printed on the metal frame (bottom right). KS2015 or 2016?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48950.0;attach=215489;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48950.0;attach=215575;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 10:36:51 am

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on April 08, 2016, 10:25:47 am

Can some one please go in and check if there is a DATE,  MONTH, YEAR embeded in the original  picturefile,  properties,  on the page where the screen capture is from,  the date that they are taken... That would tell us a lot!

First thing I checked, no EXIF data.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 10:38:37 am

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on April 08, 2016, 10:25:47 am

Can some one please go in and check if there is a DATE,  MONTH, YEAR embeded in the original  picturefile,  properties,  on the page where the screen capture is from,  the date that they are taken... That would tell us a lot!

Already did...   ;)

Quote from: Wytnucls on April 08, 2016, 10:26:20 am

I think there might be a faint date printed on the metal frame (bottom right). KS2015 or 2016?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48950.0;attach=215489;image)

Nah, it's not a year.

No matter how much I want the last digit to be a number '5' I have to say it's a letter 'S'.  :(

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215576;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on April 08, 2016, 11:52:39 am

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on April 08, 2016, 11:28:15 am

Quote from: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 10:36:51 am

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on April 08, 2016, 10:25:47 am

Can some one please go in and check if there is a DATE,  MONTH, YEAR embeded in the original  picturefile,  properties,  on the page where the screen capture is from,  the date that they are taken... That would tell us a lot!

First thing I checked, no EXIF data.

Then download the picture file, and Open it in a text editor...do a search for date format or edited info. in both start and end of the file. If the file they used on the webpage is just a screen capture, then there is reason to believe that there is something fishy/monkey business going on.

For those interested here are the links to the higher res pictures:

https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/v1460071351/fthgkjphqxa9hqfbgacz.jpg
https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/v1460071383/wgbgs936twvyuchjirwf.jpg
https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/v1460071410/vvr2uscpjzt3mmjbkoeo.jpg
https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/v1460071449/lvtgprqh45ekker0f4lu.jpg

Downloaded and achieved :-)

Zooming in on the lower right corner of the first picture, I think it says KS20151112S.
Could be 12 november 2015 or 11 december (depending on the format).
PCB seems very thin. Probably easy to break apart. But I don't see any 'mousebites' that would make this a lot easier.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on April 08, 2016, 12:06:12 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on April 08, 2016, 11:28:15 am

Quote from: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 10:36:51 am

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on April 08, 2016, 10:25:47 am

Can some one please go in and check if there is a DATE,  MONTH, YEAR embeded in the original  picturefile,  properties,  on the page where the screen capture is from,  the date that they are taken... That would tell us a lot!

First thing I checked, no EXIF data.

Then download the picture file, and Open it in a text editor...do a search for date format or edited info. in both start and end of the file. If the file they used on the webpage is just a screen capture, then there is reason to believe that there is something fishy/monkey business going on.

2016:03:03 06:21:41

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 12:26:06 pm

You can see the strip is cut right through the round fiducial like pads.
Doesn't make sense to have a V-groove on a single side of such a thin PCB though?
(https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/v1460071383/wgbgs936twvyuchjirwf.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 12:27:13 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on April 08, 2016, 11:28:15 am

Zooming in on the lower right corner of the first picture, I think it says KS20151112S.
Could be 12 november 2015 or 11 december (depending on the format).

I want to say it is, I really do ... but I can't accept that's a number '5'. The top left corner simply isn't square no matter how I squint my eyes.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215585;image)

(and the letter before it looks more like an 'I' than a '1' - "KS20IS", not "KS2015")

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Johannsen on April 08, 2016, 12:29:04 pm

That are the EXIF data

So they are basically from Feb and March

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 12:34:55 pm

Quote from: Marcel_X on April 08, 2016, 11:52:39 am

For those interested here are the links to the higher res pictures:

These have full EXIF data, photos taken on the 3rd March.
(http://i.imgur.com/u7cfpVX.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kilrah on April 08, 2016, 12:41:43 pm

Quote from: Marcel_X on April 08, 2016, 11:52:39 am

PCB seems very thin. Probably easy to break apart.

Looks like flex circuit to me.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 12:43:36 pm

Quote from: Kilrah on April 08, 2016, 12:41:43 pm

Quote from: Marcel_X on April 08, 2016, 11:52:39 am

PCB seems very thin. Probably easy to break apart.

Looks like flex circuit to me.

0.5mm and under PCB is very flexible.
You can see warping on the D holder PCB panel:
(https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/v1460071449/lvtgprqh45ekker0f4lu.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 12:45:04 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on April 08, 2016, 12:30:21 pm

How do the date 2016:03:03 06:21:41  correspond with WHEN Bob was leaving to China?  Didn he say that they where going to China at a later time?

That was the 1st of April - everybody said "April Fools" when he announced it.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215596;image)

Bob doesn't claim to have taken the pictures himself, so...  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 12:47:04 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on April 08, 2016, 12:45:30 pm

There must be some components UNDER the PCB, since it floating a little over the table.

There has to be at least a 'battery button' under there or it won't be shaped like a battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 12:48:49 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 12:34:55 pm

Quote from: Marcel_X on April 08, 2016, 11:52:39 am

For those interested here are the links to the higher res pictures:

These have full EXIF data, photos taken on the 3rd March.

...assuming they don't know about EXIF and hex editors.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on April 08, 2016, 12:52:35 pm

Why that complicated?

You are able to change the Data to what ever you want in the Windows-Explorer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kilrah on April 08, 2016, 12:57:57 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 12:43:36 pm

Quote from: Kilrah on April 08, 2016, 12:41:43 pm

Looks like flex circuit to me.

0.5mm and under PCB is very flexible.

Yeah but not THAT much, it's still fiberglass and you still need to hold some force to keep it warped. This one is anything but flat with no stress. Especially where it got "pinched" close to the little hole and kept its shape.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 01:00:40 pm

Quote from: Barny on April 08, 2016, 12:52:35 pm

Why that complicated?

You are able to change the Data to what ever you want in the Windows-Explorer.

Oh, yes, so you can...  :popcorn:

I tried it though and it mangles the EXIF info inside the file (moves things around). I can safely say that Windows Explorer wasn't used to change the dates.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kilrah on April 08, 2016, 01:04:12 pm

I'd say the EXIF looks legit... woulld be too correct for what we can expect from them  >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 01:23:28 pm

Quote from: Kilrah on April 08, 2016, 01:04:12 pm

I'd say the EXIF looks legit... woulld be too correct for what we can expect from them  >:D

I grudgingly agree.

A "positive" result doesn't prove anything either way though. They could be setting up for manufacturing, they could have pulled some old prototypes out of a closet and photographed them last month.

We need a "negative" result.

The camera used is slightly weird (most people these days would use a cellphone) but that doesn't prove anything.

The only thing that really bothers me is the name "Batteriser" in those pics. They have the Energiser lawsuit hanging over them and a couple of months ago they changed the spelling on the prototypes they were showing (I can't find the pics of that, anybody remember where they are...?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on April 08, 2016, 01:41:15 pm

Quote from: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 01:23:28 pm

The only thing that really bothers me is the name "Batteriser" in those pics. They have the Energiser lawsuit hanging over them and a couple of months ago they changed the spelling on the prototypes they were showing (I can't find the pics of that, anybody remember where they are...?)

We kind of decided that they were from an earlier prototype:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=193506;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 08, 2016, 01:42:54 pm

Quote from: Ysjoelfir on April 08, 2016, 07:38:39 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 08, 2016, 04:31:02 am

Are there one sided v-scores? If so, board might be flipped, v-score on other side? Or maybe using a depanelizer?

I might have bad eyes..... wheres the converter?
(http://i.imgur.com/tGeA0ud.png?1)

If you look realy closely you can notice at least a "big" cap at the downright edge, just where the sleeve connects to the pcb, so I assume there is actually some circuitry on there. How well it works... we will see "soooooon"  :-DD

Curious because I thought the converter was the component needing redesign?  I do think the park on the bottom right looks to be a passive. The pic is fairly low res unfortunately.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on April 08, 2016, 01:43:08 pm

Guys... you're all missing something here...

(https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/v1460071410/vvr2uscpjzt3mmjbkoeo.jpg)

Those PCBs are loaded with no IC... the pads are empty....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kilrah on April 08, 2016, 01:47:58 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on April 08, 2016, 12:45:30 pm

There must be some components UNDER the PCB, since it floating a little over the table.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 08, 2016, 01:48:46 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on April 08, 2016, 01:43:08 pm

Guys... you're all missing something here...

Those PCBs are loaded with no IC... the pads are empty....

lol

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 08, 2016, 02:00:26 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 08, 2016, 01:42:54 pm

Quote from: Ysjoelfir on April 08, 2016, 07:38:39 am

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 08, 2016, 04:31:02 am

Are there one sided v-scores? If so, board might be flipped, v-score on other side? Or maybe using a depanelizer?

I might have bad eyes..... wheres the converter?

If you look realy closely you can notice at least a "big" cap at the downright edge, just where the sleeve connects to the pcb, so I assume there is actually some circuitry on there. How well it works... we will see "soooooon"  :-DD

Curious because I thought the converter was the component needing redesign?  I do think the park on the bottom right looks to be a passive. The pic is fairly low res unfortunately.

Quote from: AmmoJammo on April 08, 2016, 01:43:08 pm

Guys... you're all missing something here...

Those PCBs are loaded with no IC... the pads are empty....

(http://i.imgur.com/2BIxq7K.png)

Well that explains why I couldn't see the converter.... it's not there, just the pads

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 02:03:22 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 08, 2016, 02:00:26 pm

Well that explains why I couldn't see the converter.... it's not there, just the pads

These are obviously prototypes for figuring out how to attach the sleeves to the PCBs, not final production.

Why would they have PCBs with caps but no chips? Maybe the chip didn't arrive yet and they were testing some other part of production.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 08, 2016, 02:10:46 pm

Quote from: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 02:03:22 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 08, 2016, 02:00:26 pm

Well that explains why I couldn't see the converter.... it's not there, just the pads

These are obviously prototypes for figuring out how to attach the sleeves to the PCBs, not final production.

Why would they have PCBs with caps but no chips? Maybe the chip didn't arrive yet and they were testing some other part of production.

Maybe for the conformal coating? The parts selected seem to be the tallest components. The other pic for the other battery size shows what looks to be just after coating. And the clamping jig has central finger where the coating wouldnt be applied - may function as a mask.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 02:18:00 pm

Quote from: PA0PBZ on April 08, 2016, 01:41:15 pm

Quote from: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 01:23:28 pm

The only thing that really bothers me is the name "Batteriser" in those pics. They have the Energiser lawsuit hanging over them and a couple of months ago they changed the spelling on the prototypes they were showing (I can't find the pics of that, anybody remember where they are...?)

We kind of decided that they were from an earlier prototype:

Nah, a few months ago all the pictures they were publishing had spelling like this:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215607;image)

I remember some pics of the standard pink AA sized Batterisers spelled like that as well but I can't find any now.  :(

Ref: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg873076/#msg873076 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg873076/#msg873076)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on April 08, 2016, 02:27:19 pm

My bet is that the photos are old, the EXIF data is probably mostly legit as they did originate from that old Sony camera, just the date and times have been modified.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 02:32:36 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 08, 2016, 02:10:46 pm

Quote from: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 02:03:22 pm

Why would they have PCBs with caps but no chips? Maybe the chip didn't arrive yet and they were testing some other part of production.

Maybe for the conformal coating? The parts selected seem to be the tallest components.

The capacitors might be there for testing height clearances in the jig.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MLXXXp on April 08, 2016, 03:16:13 pm

It's interesting that the tide seems to have turned, though. Even after Bob has posted an update, there's been nothing but negative comments made by backers on Indiegogo. No "Thanks for the update" or "Keep up the good work".

Also, I wonder why they've stopped deleting the negative comments. Do you think maybe Indiegogo has asked them not to, or prevented them from doing so?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 08, 2016, 03:20:41 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 12:34:55 pm

Quote from: Marcel_X on April 08, 2016, 11:52:39 am

For those interested here are the links to the higher res pictures:

These have full EXIF data, photos taken on the 3rd March.

First image (pcb and plate) February 24th

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on April 08, 2016, 04:25:50 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on April 08, 2016, 02:27:19 pm

My bet is that the photos are old, the EXIF data is probably mostly legit as they did originate from that old Sony camera, just the date and times have been modified.

I think they are legit. I don't think they would go so far as to use an exif editor.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on April 08, 2016, 04:26:24 pm

Quote from: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 09:18:10 am

b) They're about to announce the Energiser lawsuit to the world.
c) The Energiser lawsuit means the entire imaginary production run will have to be "scrapped".

There is no lawsuit yet... Energizer has nothing to sue them over (yet...)

Energizer opposed their application to register the Batteriser trademark but that is not a lawsuit.

I do agree that Batteroo still need to figure out what they're going to to about the final name...  Calling them Batterisers is probably a bad idea unless they come to some kind of agreement with Energizer, I'll grant you that...

... but there is no lawsuit as yet...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on April 08, 2016, 04:35:47 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 12:34:55 pm

These have full EXIF data, photos taken on the 3rd March.

Assuming the date on the camera was set correctly when the photos were taken (which will be a manual process since it's not a cell phone or something that would be able to set the date itself) and (as others have pointed out) that they have not modified the EXIF info dates, etc.  Not that it really matters, of course.  :)

I know that on my old HP camera, which I still sometimes use for things, it is pertty much never set correctly since it loses the date and time whenever you remove the batteries for any significant length of time and so I just never bother to set it.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 06:10:29 pm

Quote from: drussell on April 08, 2016, 04:35:47 pm

I know that on my old HP camera, which I still sometimes use for things, it is pertty much never set correctly since it loses the date and time whenever you remove the batteries for any significant length of time and so I just never bother to set it.  :)

Yep, I thought that as well. What's the chances of them bothering to set the date correctly for those photos?  That's almost suspicious all by itself. :-//

I have to admit these photos are a bit of a curvebal and I'm not sure what to think. The only theories I can come up with are:
a) It's a con and they did edit the EXIF data. The photos are of some prototyping they did last year.

Editing EXIF isn't rocket science and the Batterisers they were to Yahoo showing last summer were professionally manufactured, not hand-made. It's almost certain that they have some prototyping junk lying around somewhere to photograph.


b) It's not a con and they're actually manufacturing something.

This only makes sense if they've hooked some new investors. They know they won't get any repeat orders so there's no way they'd spend any of their own personal money on manufacturing Batterisers. It would be money down the drain from their point of view.

Conclusion: If they're spending money on manufacturing it must be somebody else's money.

What if they've got a big new investor who's prepared to invest in the company so long as manufacturing starts up ASAP? That would explain this.

Then again: Why post crappy photos on IndieGoGo? What's the point of that?  :-// The only person interested in updates would be the new investor.


c) They've had a change of heart. All the negative comments have struck home and they decided to spend their own money to make things right, even though they know it doesn't work as advertised and they won't get any repeat business.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on April 08, 2016, 06:36:51 pm

Quote from: drussell on April 08, 2016, 04:35:47 pm

I know that on my old HP camera, which I still sometimes use for things, it is pertty much never set correctly since it loses the date and time whenever you remove the batteries for any significant length of time and so I just never bother to set it.  :)

Yeah, but what are the odds that they took this pictures last year and set the date on the camera to 03-2016? If anything is forged it has to be the EXIF data.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 07:36:28 pm

Quote from: PA0PBZ on April 08, 2016, 06:36:51 pm

what are the odds that they took this pictures last year and set the date on the camera to 03-2016?

Less than the odds of setting the correct date last month when they took the pictures.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on April 08, 2016, 07:43:04 pm

One thing in Batteroos favour is they are calling their product a Batteriser, not a Batterizer. For some reason even my google forum spell check is underlining the Batteriser as a mistake with the red squigglies and yet allowing Batterizer a free pass. Clearly its spelling and grammar checks are Americurricanized^TM.

Energiser, sorry, Energizer can go fuck themselves if they want to bring the lawyers in. As much as Batteriser is a scam, I cannot support a big corporate using ridiculously broad trademark interpretations, shit patents, and other "IP" expensive lawyer scams as a ploy to destroy any small business startup. I don't take any pleasure in others using that avenue to attack Batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on April 08, 2016, 07:51:39 pm

Folks,

Anybody who would post a picture of a De-Sta-Co clamp with shims under the rubber tip because he/she doesn't understand how to adjust the clamp isn't smart enough to alter EXIF data. 

Everyone involved with the Batteriser is utterly, fucking hopeless. 

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215681;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215683;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Zbig on April 08, 2016, 07:52:21 pm

Quote from: Macbeth on April 08, 2016, 07:43:04 pm

For some reason even my google forum spell check is underlining the Batteriser as a mistake with the red squigglies and yet allowing Batterizer a free pass.

Switch your OS's language settings from "English (UK)" to "English (US)" and chances are it will do the opposite.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on April 08, 2016, 08:25:50 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on April 08, 2016, 07:51:39 pm

Anybody who would post a picture of a De-Sta-Co clamp with shims under the rubber tip because he/she doesn't understand how to adjust the clamp isn't smart enough

But surely they are using the same Batteroo physics? I would hazard a guess that the shim is just their application of mechanics to the electrical 1V vs 1.4V dead battery - that is perhaps a 4mm shim. Proving how clamp manufacturers have been ripping off their customers for decades when they could just have a 4mm shim, made from sponge so it could be compressed between 1mm-4mm.  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on April 08, 2016, 08:31:41 pm

Quote from: Zbig on April 08, 2016, 07:52:21 pm

Switch your OS's language settings from "English (UK)" to "English (US)" and chances are it will do the opposite.

Sorry, the very idea made the hairs stand on end. I had to make a cup of strong tea to recover. Thank you anyway.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Zbig on April 08, 2016, 09:25:55 pm

Quote from: Macbeth on April 08, 2016, 08:31:41 pm

Quote from: Zbig on April 08, 2016, 07:52:21 pm

Switch your OS's language settings from "English (UK)" to "English (US)" and chances are it will do the opposite.

Sorry, the very idea made the hairs stand on end. I had to make a cup of strong tea to recover. Thank you anyway.

What color was it? Was it gray like an aging tire or oxidized aluminum?  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on April 08, 2016, 09:34:14 pm

Earl Grey thank you. I know you eastern europeans like tea as much as Brits do, but with lemon and sugar. Earl Grey is made with bergamot so no need for lemon. Of course proper assam tea is so stronk it needs milk to counter the tannic acid. Closer to aging tyre than aluminium oxide.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lincoln on April 08, 2016, 10:41:30 pm

Macbeth just now : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eELH0ivexKA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eELH0ivexKA)   :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 10:50:14 pm

Quote from: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 06:10:29 pm

Yep, I thought that as well. What's the chances of them bothering to set the date correctly for those photos?  That's almost suspicious all by itself. :-//
I have to admit these photos are a bit of a curvebal and I'm not sure what to think. The only theories I can come up with are:
b) It's not a con and they're actually manufacturing something.
This only makes sense if they've hooked some new investors. They know they won't get any repeat orders so there's no way they'd spend any of their own personal money on manufacturing Batterisers. It would be money down the drain from their point of view.

I think it's this, occum's razor and all. The photo dates are real, and they are simply still trying to figure out how to make the things.
That's why they didn't show the photos a month ago when they had them.

Quote

Conclusion: If they're spending money on manufacturing it must be somebody else's money.
What if they've got a big new investor who's prepared to invest in the company so long as manufacturing starts up ASAP? That would explain this.

They already have an investor, SKTA Innopartners. There is zero evidence how much money they actually go, apart from "up to 1 million dollars" and under what conditions they they have been handing out the money. It's entirely plausible they still have money left from that.

Quote

Then again: Why post crappy photos on IndieGoGo? What's the point of that?  :-// The only person interested in updates would be the new investor.

Nope. IGG have put pressure on them. It's not the first time we have seen this IIRC.

The photos are obviously a ruse to finally show that something has been happening. They come with basically no explanation, are at least a month old, and after analysis don't really show they are production ready.
If they truly were production ready they would be screaming from mountain tops about how wonderful it all is, giving all sorts of technical detail, and they would have posted the photos a month ago when they were taken.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 10:57:24 pm

Quote from: Macbeth on April 08, 2016, 07:43:04 pm

One thing in Batteroos favour is they are calling their product a Batteriser, not a Batterizer. For some reason even my google forum spell check is underlining the Batteriser as a mistake with the red squigglies and yet allowing Batterizer a free pass. Clearly its spelling and grammar checks are Americurricanized^TM.

And if they think they can get away with that, then they are dumber than Probs the Monkey. Energizer will win their Trademark dispute, and then will sue Batteroo out of existance if they ship a single unit with the name on it. Retroactively too, because Batteroo know the name is being contested, but look to be taking the risk and shipping anyway.

Quote

Energiser, sorry, Energizer can go fuck themselves if they want to bring the lawyers in. As much as Batteriser is a scam, I cannot support a big corporate using ridiculously broad trademark interpretations, shit patents, and other "IP" expensive lawyer scams as a ploy to destroy any small business startup. I don't take any pleasure in others using that avenue to attack Batteroo.

I half agree. But the other half of me says Batteroo are being deliberately deceptive with the name and letter change and Energizer have every right to go after them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on April 08, 2016, 11:23:08 pm

Quote from: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 02:03:22 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 08, 2016, 02:00:26 pm

Well that explains why I couldn't see the converter.... it's not there, just the pads

These are obviously prototypes for figuring out how to attach the sleeves to the PCBs, not final production.

Why would they have PCBs with caps but no chips? Maybe the chip didn't arrive yet and they were testing some other part of production.

There's no part on the largest pads on the PCB either, probably the inductor.

You don't assemble half a PCB to check clearances, or see how final assembly can be done.

You either run with a completely unpopulated PCB, or fully loaded, even if it does any up getting scrapped.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on April 09, 2016, 12:24:51 am

Quote from: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 10:57:24 pm

I half agree. But the other half of me says Batteroo are being deliberately deceptive with the name and letter change and Energizer have every right to go after them.

...and of course we know one of the possible forthcoming actions on Batteroos part is the sudden "Oh noes! Big corporate lawyers! Destroy our likkle startup! - sorry guys, it's all over - you can thank Big Battery for that!"

I'm sorry, but I want my Schadenfreude to be perfect. Letting the bastards get away with it by invoking stupid corporate lawyers will ruin my fine 20 year old single malt scotch I have on reserve  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on April 09, 2016, 02:07:31 am

Many photo hosting services automatically strip out EXIF data to prevent someone from accidentally posting personal information, such as imgur. If they really wanted to hide the date they were taken they could simply use one of those.

The idea that they carefully edited individual images to change the exif data is approaching this territory:
(http://e.lvme.me/5o4mnkx.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on April 09, 2016, 03:06:22 am

I think we established the EXIF data has not been stripped...  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on April 09, 2016, 03:09:26 am

 Posit: We know they have some sort of prototype units, they've showed them off to Yahoo and others, even if the only one that actually seems to 'work' is the one Bob personally demos in the Apple wireless keyboard

Posit: there is nothing in those photos that would indicate production of thousands of these things

Posit: there is no information as to where in the world the photos were taken, just a date.

So, the photos are real, taken on the dates indicated in the EXIF data. However, they are just photos of the same block of prototypes they've had sitting around since they made the ones they've showed around. Nothing new, nothing advanced towards production since 6 or 9 or more months ago. More like a "quick, let's set up a photo before they come after us with pitchforks and torches."

I didn't even see the shims under the clamps at first.  :palm: Sort of reinforces my theory of a hastily arranged photo shoot to placate the masses - it was too wobbly and they didn't know/couldn't be bothered with properly adjusting the clamps, just quick slide something under there to stabilize it for the picture.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on April 09, 2016, 03:45:13 am

Hi group,

I think that this jig:

(https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/v1460071383/wgbgs936twvyuchjirwf.jpg)

is for molding the epoxy (or whatever it is) resin to cover the components.

There look to set screws to adjust the finger that masks the positive battery terminal.

The result of the epoxy pour looks like this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215494;image)

So I think that the test boards. They have the highest components on them, the ceramic capacitors.

So this looks like an experiment in manufacturing techniques, as oppose to evidence that the Batterisers are being manufactured.

This picture doesn't look like the right schematic:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215784;image)

If the photographs are dated 3rd of March, why did they wait 4 weeks to release them?

I still think that they are long way from production.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on April 09, 2016, 04:17:50 am

I think the jig is for the conformal coating / epoxy as well

Everything they showed looks like engineering samples/prototyping/low volume stuff to me.........on what they showed, think they're ready for an approx 100,000 production run across 5 variants (AAA,AA,C,D,9V)?  ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on April 09, 2016, 04:37:20 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on April 09, 2016, 03:45:13 am

This picture doesn't look like the right schematic:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215784;image)

I still think that they are long way from production.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

That jig is annotated in english, which would lead me to believe that this photos are not from a Chinese CM, but are from stateside prototyping effort a while back. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 09, 2016, 07:04:44 am

Quote from: EEVblog on April 08, 2016, 10:50:14 pm

Quote from: Fungus on April 08, 2016, 06:10:29 pm

b) It's not a con and they're actually manufacturing something.

I think it's this, occum's razor and all. The photo dates are real, and they are simply still trying to figure out how to make the things.
That's why they didn't show the photos a month ago when they had them.

These were manufactured before last July:
(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/gHFzMkMzcsQPvISXwyaNSA--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9MTI4MDtoPTk2MA--/http://l.yimg.com/cd/resizer/2.0/original/6xkSXHMDTTi0PFY4J9OglcDoRqY)

What have they been doing for the last 10 months?

(Yeah, I know - "dicking around". Hanlon's razor and all...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 09, 2016, 09:48:06 am

Quote from: Fungus on April 09, 2016, 07:04:44 am

These were manufactured before last July:
What have they been doing for the last 10 months?
(Yeah, I know - "dicking around". Hanlon's razor and all...)

a) Trying to figure out how to make them in volume
and
b) Trying to figure out how to actually make them work anywhere near their silly claims
and
c) Figuring out that all these annoying engineers on some stupid forum are actually right, and how best to save face and backtrack on their claims
and
d) Trying to convince Walmart/Kmart et.al to buy them. This IGG crap is annoying chump change to them, bets to wait for that big order before shipping to people who will within days prove it's a pretty useless product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 09, 2016, 09:50:05 am

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on April 09, 2016, 06:50:39 am

The clue ising the picture,  at the top of the jig ... BTR.
This company is situated right where the landslide happened.
Shenzhen BTR New Energy Materials Co., Ltd.
http://www.btrchina.com/ (http://www.btrchina.com/)
Company Overview
BTR New Energy Materials Inc. manufactures and supplies graphite anode materials for lithium ion battery (LIB). The company offers anode material, including natural graphite, artificial graphite, mesophase carbon microspheres, and power battery materials; and cathode materials. The company also provides conductive materials, such as CNTs and CNFs that are used in lithium ion battery, circuit board spraying ink, super-capacitor, electronics devices, solar cells, and composite materials; conductive graphite products, which are used in lithium ion batteries, lkaline batteries, and super-capacitors; and nano lithium titanate that are used in motive LIB, super-capacitors, and energy storage type ...

Absolutely none of which has anything to do with manufacturing the Batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 09, 2016, 09:52:47 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on April 09, 2016, 03:45:13 am

This picture doesn't look like the right schematic:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215784;image)

Yes, i'm confused by that layout  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on April 09, 2016, 10:06:02 am

Quote from: EEVblog on April 09, 2016, 09:52:47 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on April 09, 2016, 03:45:13 am

This picture doesn't look like the right schematic:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215784;image)

Yes, i'm confused by that layout  :-//

It looks like a dual synchronous boost converter:
The centre is the positive input and goes to inductors at both sides and to the ic in the middle. All the capacitors must be on the other side.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Zbig on April 09, 2016, 10:34:57 am

Quote from: Fungus

(Yeah, I know - "dicking around". Hanlon's razor and all...)

Speaking of razors... Is it me or the prototype looks like it'd be ridiculously easy to slash your hands while handling it? It even has these serrations to cut through the flesh more easily.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on April 09, 2016, 10:53:08 am

Quote from: EEVblog on April 09, 2016, 09:52:47 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on April 09, 2016, 03:45:13 am

This picture doesn't look like the right schematic:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=215784;image)

Yes, i'm confused by that layout  :-//

I think this is the PCB for the D cell version. If you compare it with the other one, it is different.
Seems like the D cell version has two inductors in parallel. Probably to increase current, while maintaining a lower overal height.
The other 4 unpopulated footprints could be the 2 caps in the input and output and two resistors for the feedback voltage.

The AA cell version has only one inductor.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ozwolf on April 09, 2016, 11:08:11 am

If I wanted new EXIF data on an old picture, wouldn't I just take a picture of the picture?  Maybe that explains the poor resolution and quality.

Ozwolf

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on April 09, 2016, 11:20:03 am

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on April 09, 2016, 06:50:39 am

The clue ising the picture,  at the top of the jig ... BTR.

This company is situated right where the landslide happened.

BTR(on the jig) is probably short for BaTteriseR. And no matter what 3 letter abbreviation you use, chances are you find an electronics related company with that name in Shenzen.

But let's use this to give the landslide thing some perspective.

In this map I marked both the landslide, and the company you mentioned. It may look relative close to each other, but it is roughly 8 kilometres. Where I live that's like on the other side of the next village.

Now we cannot whether or not Batteroo was really affected by this landslide, but look at the map, and calculate the chances yourself.

But people have lost their homes, their dear ones and their lives in this landslide. So using it as an excuse for a delay seems very low if it's not true. But still Bob gave this as an excuse, without even expressing his sympathy to the people who lived there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 09, 2016, 12:23:50 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on April 09, 2016, 11:18:47 am

Quote from: EEVblog on April 09, 2016, 09:50:05 am

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on April 09, 2016, 06:50:39 am

Company Overview
BTR New Energy Materials Inc. manufactures and supplies graphite anode materials for lithium ion battery (LIB). The company offers anode material, including natural graphite, artificial graphite, mesophase carbon microspheres, and power battery materials; and cathode materials. The company also provides conductive materials, such as CNTs and CNFs that are used in lithium ion battery, circuit board spraying ink, super-capacitor, electronics devices, solar cells, and composite materials; conductive graphite products, which are used in lithium ion batteries, lkaline batteries, and super-capacitors; and nano lithium titanate that are used in motive LIB, super-capacitors, and energy storage type ...

Absolutely none of which has anything to do with manufacturing the Batteriser.

Upper left corner of the picture Date, Thats the name of the company that one the jig.  :)

I think he meant that nothing on that list is related to making Batterisers. It's a materials company, not a PCB/manufacturing company.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on April 09, 2016, 02:03:46 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on April 09, 2016, 01:23:21 pm

Coindenece that BTR is marked on the tool in the picture...

No, BTR is a perfectly explainable abbreviation for Batteriser, or Batteroo, or Battery. It doesn't mean that the jig is from BTR china. Also, if so, I would expect to see some Chinese signs

Quote

A company who is one of the 5 biggest battery product companies in ASIA?

If they are that big, than they know their batteries, and know that batteriser is a joke in which not to invest money.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 09, 2016, 02:31:44 pm

If they are a manufacturer, what would they care about a joke?

Make something to the specifications given, take the money and ship it.  Their balance sheet won't care if it's a joke or not.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 09, 2016, 02:37:52 pm

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on April 09, 2016, 01:23:21 pm

Well, i beg to differ.
Who is BTR`s  biggest competitor?
Energiser and all the BIG battery industry in USA.
Who did Bob say was braiking inn to his office? The big battery companies.
What if Bob just wanted to get inters for his product by faking a burglary? Just to sweeten the idea that someone did see it as a good idea?
Who would he sell  his patent rights to? Who would he, wished he to work with? The big battery companies.
Coincidence that this companies name is in batteries, is in the same place that he claims that he have the Batteriser produced? Within 7 km from the landslide..
Coindenece that BTR is marked on the tool in the picture... A company who is one of the 5 biggest battery product companies in ASIA?
What if he sell in this technology,  to BTR with a another chemical type of battery, that can benefitt from batteriser , buildt into the battery itself?
Judge youself..

Ok, I judge that to be the biggest far flung stretch since the Batteriser claims themselves  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 09, 2016, 02:38:57 pm

Quote from: Brumby on April 09, 2016, 02:31:44 pm

If they are a manufacturer, what would they care about a joke?

BTR are not a contract manufacturer. They are chemical company that specialises in batteries. Heck, they don't even do primary batteries, just Lithium Ion tech.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on April 09, 2016, 02:47:50 pm

Yeah BTR musts stand for Batteriser or Batteroo. Nothing of practical value in BTR's portfolio.

On an unrelated point, I did a search and couldn't find my following speculation listed in this thread before:
A name listed as part of the Batteriser team, shares a name with a linked in profile of a man who is ex-flextronics but currently working for tenpao, a power adapter company. He also worked at a semiconductor manufacturer before that. Coincidence?


And this coming week (11th - 14th April) there is an large Electronics & Components show at Asia World Expo, Hong Kong. I wonder if that's the real reason they are travelling out there and why Bob's April 1st comment of didn't say they were travelling immediately. tenpao are exhibiting which is how I learned of it:
http://www.asiaworld-expo.com/html/en/EventCalendar/EventDetail_18D5E13603144AEDB24CD8ECB02D04DF.html (http://www.asiaworld-expo.com/html/en/EventCalendar/EventDetail_18D5E13603144AEDB24CD8ECB02D04DF.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on April 09, 2016, 04:54:44 pm

Quote from: Macbeth on April 09, 2016, 03:06:22 am

I think we established the EXIF data has not been stripped...  :-//

...yes...which is why i said that if they wanted to hide dates, it would be trivial to strip them but they didn't do that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ozwolf on April 10, 2016, 10:06:06 pm

Quote from: Nerull on April 09, 2016, 04:54:44 pm

Quote from: Macbeth on April 09, 2016, 03:06:22 am

I think we established the EXIF data has not been stripped...  :-//

...yes...which is why i said that if they wanted to hide dates, it would be trivial to strip them but they didn't do that.

As I mentioned earlier, are we sure they haven't taken a picture of an earlier image?  No need to do anything with EXIF data then.

Ozwolf

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on April 10, 2016, 11:10:18 pm

UK distributer just listed Batterisers as coming soon. Only £12.99!

http://www.2tech.co.uk/products/batteriser (http://www.2tech.co.uk/products/batteriser)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on April 11, 2016, 12:15:10 am

No Batteriser circuit board!
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=216249)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on April 11, 2016, 01:08:47 am

Exif date in those promo shots are from November if I'm reading them right. What's strange is they seem to be the only copies of those pics that google knows about.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 11, 2016, 09:39:18 am

Quote from: rich on April 10, 2016, 11:10:18 pm

UK distributer just listed Batterisers as coming soon. Only £12.99

It doesn't mean a distribution deal. At that price they might just be hoping to buy them in bulk from Batteriser and resell them for a $5 markup.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on April 11, 2016, 03:58:13 pm

Quote from: amspire on April 11, 2016, 12:15:10 am

No Batteriser circuit board!
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=216249)

Seems they used a broken one for that picture, maybe the circuit board broke off while inserting it on some device that didn't have enough clearance.

You can see the circuit board on the controller shot.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=216462;image)

weird they do get promo pictures but the backers don't get that much detailed pictures.

Edit: also note that the battery seems to need to be loaded backwards inside the sleeve on the picture with the mouse that obviously can't take a AA battery anyways.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bitwelder on April 12, 2016, 01:47:24 pm

Quote from: rich on April 10, 2016, 11:10:18 pm

UK distributer just listed Batterisers as coming soon. Only £12.99!

Interesting to read the phrasing of the product description.
Not "Batteriser extends battery life to x%", but "The Batteriser battery sleeve promises to extend the life of your batteries up to...".
And nowhere else does affirm what the product *does*, other than it 'features an incredibly small circuit board'.
Much more vague and ass-covering.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on April 12, 2016, 10:24:13 pm

I guess the distributer is as much in the dark as backers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mohan on April 16, 2016, 02:36:12 pm

Latest from Batteriser facebook page:

Gary Butler I invested a year ago and still waiting for my product from Batteriser!
Like · Reply · April 12 at 9:58am
Batteriser
Batteriser We're waiting on one final go-ahead from some executives who are currently out of the country. Expect the shipping dates soon!
Like · Reply · April 12 at 10:23am

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on April 17, 2016, 07:44:24 am

Quote from: Mohan on April 16, 2016, 02:36:12 pm

[snip]
Batteriser
Batteriser We're waiting on one final go-ahead from some executives who are currently out of the country. Expect the shipping dates soon!
Like · Reply · April 12 at 10:23am

Bob is in China and can't access his email due to the Great Firewall ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 17, 2016, 08:08:10 am

Quote from: amspire on April 11, 2016, 12:15:10 am

No Batteriser circuit board!
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=216249)

 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on April 17, 2016, 09:55:20 am

 :palm:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=217739;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: crispy_tofu on April 17, 2016, 10:06:45 am

Are they even serious about this anymore?  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on April 17, 2016, 12:18:32 pm

"No Batteriser circuit board!"    :palm: :-DD
"By 2017, we hope to..." 'hope' being the operative word. :-DD   :palm: :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 17, 2016, 02:00:00 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on April 17, 2016, 09:55:20 am

:palm:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=217739;image)

The military?

Well, maybe their concept can be migrated onto other platforms - possibly weaponised?  I can just see them them rolling out the 'Bulletiser' .... get 800% more range by slipping this little sleeve over each round!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: station240 on April 17, 2016, 02:14:43 pm

Quote from: rich on April 10, 2016, 11:10:18 pm

UK distributer just listed Batterisers as coming soon. Only £12.99!

http://www.2tech.co.uk/products/batteriser (http://www.2tech.co.uk/products/batteriser)

"The tiny, 0.1 millimetre-thick stainless steel Batteriser sleeve..."
lol it's going to crumple like tin foil.

Still that does mean when it arrives in 2027 and doesn't work 'cause Bob left the PCB out, you can screw it up and toss it in the bin.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on April 17, 2016, 03:00:12 pm

Quote from: station240 on April 17, 2016, 02:14:43 pm

Quote from: rich on April 10, 2016, 11:10:18 pm

UK distributer just listed Batterisers as coming soon. Only £12.99!

http://www.2tech.co.uk/products/batteriser (http://www.2tech.co.uk/products/batteriser)

"The tiny, 0.1 millimetre-thick stainless steel Batteriser sleeve..."
lol it's going to crumple like tin foil.

Still that does mean when it arrives in 2027 and doesn't work 'cause Bob left the PCB out, you can screw it up and toss it in the bin.

At least a PCBless Batteryiser* won't reduce your battery life, purely get them stuck inside your devices...


* (c) that weirdo on Youtube.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on April 17, 2016, 03:13:38 pm

Quote from: Brumby on April 17, 2016, 02:00:00 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on April 17, 2016, 09:55:20 am

:palm:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=217739;image)

The military?

Well, maybe their concept can be migrated onto other platforms - possibly weaponised?  I can just see them them rolling out the 'Bulletiser' .... get 800% more range by slipping this little sleeve over each round!

That would work out well for the target - they would just see the muzzle flash lighting up the words "Coming soon! We hope to deliver your bullet in time for the holidays".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on April 17, 2016, 04:38:51 pm

I'm sure soldiers in combat will love it when their radios simply stop working rather than showing a low battery indicator.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 17, 2016, 05:02:40 pm

Quote from: Brumby on April 17, 2016, 02:00:00 pm

The military?

They've been using the "military" angle for about six months now.

Maybe it's just a sales angle aimed at patriotic crowdfunders. I can't imagine the military wouldn't test their "800%" claims - it's not like it's a difficult test to do.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on April 17, 2016, 06:47:31 pm

Quote from: Fungus on April 17, 2016, 05:02:40 pm

They've been using the "military" angle for about six months now.

Maybe it's just a sales angle aimed at patriotic crowdfunders. I can't imagine the military wouldn't test their "800%" claims - it's not like it's a difficult test to do.

Yeah, that is all just pure marketing wankery BS... 

There is absolutely no way the military would ever use Batterisers.  Anything they use that should have a boost converter in the power supply will already have one.  There is no need for an add-on accessory booster.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on April 17, 2016, 08:03:08 pm

 Just what the military needs. Pre-mission battery check - yup, full power. Half way into the mission "shit, all our commo equipment is dead"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on April 17, 2016, 08:12:57 pm

Actually those Batterisers would probably make quite good Chaff (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaff_(countermeasure)). About all they are any use for.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on April 17, 2016, 11:56:05 pm

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/04/29/dowsing_for_bombs_maker_of_useless_bomb_detectors_convicted_of_fraud.html (http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/04/29/dowsing_for_bombs_maker_of_useless_bomb_detectors_convicted_of_fraud.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 18, 2016, 12:15:35 am

"I’m glad he was convicted of fraud, because it sends a good message to those who would try to use pseudoscientific claptrap to make a profit: We’re on to you, and we will do what we can to stop you.

And it’s a cautionary tale as well. There are an infinite number of flavors of this sort of nonsense, from astrology to homeopathy, from the antivaccination movement to global warming denial. While you might think some of these are harmless, they all have very serious ramifications: they lead to magical thinking. They tell people it’s OK to stop putting their trust in reality and science, and instead abandon it for nonsense."

"They tell people it’s OK to stop putting their trust in reality and science, and instead abandon it for nonsense." That's what this thread has been addressing since the get-go.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 18, 2016, 12:23:46 am

Quote from: Fungus on April 17, 2016, 05:02:40 pm

Quote from: Brumby on April 17, 2016, 02:00:00 pm

The military?

They've been using the "military" angle for about six months now.
Maybe it's just a sales angle aimed at patriotic crowdfunders. I can't imagine the military wouldn't test their "800%" claims - it's not like it's a difficult test to do.

It's a standard technique for such products that aren't really practical. They have to think up new usage cases in order to get the investors excited that it's some unicorn level product idea.
Same thing happened with Solar Roadways, they claimed military uses by dropping them into war zones by drones!
uBeam is another example that has all sort of ridiculous grandiose claims including military as well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on April 18, 2016, 04:29:57 am

Quote from: EEVblog on April 18, 2016, 12:23:46 am

Quote from: Fungus on April 17, 2016, 05:02:40 pm

Quote from: Brumby on April 17, 2016, 02:00:00 pm

The military?

They've been using the "military" angle for about six months now.
Maybe it's just a sales angle aimed at patriotic crowdfunders. I can't imagine the military wouldn't test their "800%" claims - it's not like it's a difficult test to do.

It's a standard technique for such products that aren't really practical. They have to think up new usage cases in order to get the investors excited that it's some unicorn level product idea.
Same thing happened with Solar Roadways, they claimed military uses by dropping them into war zones by drones!
uBeam is another example that has all sort of ridiculous grandiose claims including military as well.

If Batteroo attempts to sell to the DOD with the grandiose claims they are making now, they are toast.  Complete and utter toast.  I've said it five times, and I'll say it again, Qui Tam.  It is known as the "Lincoln Law" and allows private parties to sue companies who defraud the US Government on behalf of the US Government.  If the Government thinks the plaintiff has a great case, they will take it on themselves and give the plaintiff less in damages, but will absorb the legal costs.   It will take little effort to find a DOD Inspector General who will enjoy suing the crap out of Batteroo, SKTA, or whoever has the deepest pockets, just to make a public example of how *not* to do business with the Dept. of Defense.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on April 18, 2016, 04:48:56 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on April 18, 2016, 04:29:57 am

If Batteroo attempts to sell to the DOD with the grandiose claims they are making now, they are toast.  Complete and utter toast.  I've said it five times, and I'll say it again, Qui Tam.  It is known as the "Lincoln Law" and allows private parties to sue companies who defraud the US Government on behalf of the US Government.  If the Government thinks the plaintiff has a great case, they will take it on themselves and give the plaintiff less in damages, but will absorb the legal costs.   It will take little effort to find a DOD Inspector General who will enjoy suing the crap out of Batteroo, SKTA, or whoever has the deepest pockets, just to make a public example of how *not* to do business with the Dept. of Defense.

Unless they have a Senator in their back pocket.  (or a congressman).  Our local congressman gave away 5 billion (yes billion) worth of land to his brother's company.  BUT that had no influence on his decision   :-DD  (so he said and that was the end of the story and land)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on April 18, 2016, 06:06:36 pm

There is a lawsuit culture over there, isn't it?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on April 18, 2016, 06:41:31 pm

Quote from: jancumps on April 18, 2016, 06:06:36 pm

There is a lawsuit culture over there, isn't it?

I don't condone the lawsuit culture, but in this particular instance the Qui Tam process has been incredibly productive allowing the US Goverment to prosecute fraud and recover taxpayer money. These suits are typically brought by whistleblower insiders who usually have their careers destroyed in fighting the good fight. Very few of these suits would see the light of day without the commission of fraud, waste, and abuse.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on April 18, 2016, 07:19:22 pm

Quote from: jancumps on April 18, 2016, 06:06:36 pm

There is a lawsuit culture over there, isn't it?

Not when they say "that had no influence on my decision".  This is their legal defense.

Just because his brother made millions does not mean that that influenced his decision.  Legal defense but not common sense.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on April 19, 2016, 10:32:50 am

Quote from: Fungus on April 09, 2016, 07:04:44 am

These were manufactured before last July:
(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/gHFzMkMzcsQPvISXwyaNSA--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9MTI4MDtoPTk2MA--/http://l.yimg.com/cd/resizer/2.0/original/6xkSXHMDTTi0PFY4J9OglcDoRqY)

What have they been doing for the last 10 months?

Transferring from a company that knows how to outsource metal-bending and metal-stamping,
to a company that knows how to outsource that thing with the PCB's and that components stuff.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on April 19, 2016, 12:32:17 pm

Military is using battery-operated monkeys and cheap GPS? Military devices do not have dc-dc-converters built-in? 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lapm on April 19, 2016, 12:41:36 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on April 19, 2016, 12:32:17 pm

Military is using battery-operated monkeys and cheap GPS? Military devices do not have dc-dc-converters built-in?

Thats certainly confusing to enemy. They are throwing what at us? Battery operated monkeys?  :-DD :-DD :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 19, 2016, 12:46:02 pm

First reported case of a refund?

(http://i.imgur.com/PqbIZDh.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on April 19, 2016, 12:47:19 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 19, 2016, 12:46:02 pm

First reported case of a refund?

(http://i.imgur.com/PqbIZDh.png)

They refunded by mistake.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on April 19, 2016, 02:18:11 pm

From their facebook page:

Quote

Did you know that Batteriser lets you mix old and new batteries together, without any risk of leakage or rupture? The Batteriser's voltage management technology simultaneously prevents extreme discharges while keeping an old battery's energy output consistent, up until a battery is truly dead.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on April 19, 2016, 09:00:10 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 19, 2016, 12:46:02 pm

First reported case of a refund?

(http://i.imgur.com/PqbIZDh.png)

Chance is, their records are rubbish or non-existent (they weren't going to ship anyway), so... lodge your claim for 800% more than you ordered.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on April 20, 2016, 12:53:39 pm

Quote from: Fungus on April 17, 2016, 05:02:40 pm

Quote from: Brumby on April 17, 2016, 02:00:00 pm

The military?

They've been using the "military" angle for about six months now.

Maybe it's just a sales angle aimed at patriotic crowdfunders. I can't imagine the military wouldn't test their "800%" claims - it's not like it's a difficult test to do.

Apparently the military doesn't test anything. Anyone who remembers the dowsing rod with no electronics at all in it for bomb detection? http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-22380368 (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-22380368) . At least the Batteriser might have a positive effect for some rare applications, if they don't ship just the sleeves without electronics.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 20, 2016, 01:57:21 pm

Taking bets on when the next (non) update will be...
I say mid May.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on April 20, 2016, 02:04:08 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 20, 2016, 01:57:21 pm

Taking bets on when the next (non) update will be...
I say mid May.

What can we win? :) I say May 1. International workers day is appropriate for so much work.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on April 20, 2016, 02:33:21 pm

 Instead of chicken shit or cow patty bingo for picking contest winners, we can just do Batteriser Update Bingo. Pick a day, sit back, and wait.

 It may be a long time before anything is decided though, that would be the only downside.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: KermitDK on April 20, 2016, 02:39:05 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 20, 2016, 01:57:21 pm

Taking bets on when the next (non) update will be...
I say mid May.

You left one thing out : What year ???  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 20, 2016, 02:57:57 pm

I'll go for May 5th.

Seems there is a sympathetic 'vibe' with one of the well known amendments to a particular constitution.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 20, 2016, 02:59:11 pm

If we can go for a second pick ... how about July 4th.

There's sure to be some fireworks - but will there be 800% more than last year?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on April 20, 2016, 03:08:10 pm

I think Thursday fortnight, there will be an announcement that they are in discussion with an unamed major phone and tablet company. Doubling the life of Lithium batteries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on April 20, 2016, 04:21:55 pm

Quote from: Brumby on April 20, 2016, 02:57:57 pm

I'll go for May 5th.

Seems there is a sympathetic 'vibe' with one of the well known amendments to a particular constitution.

I don't think they will anounce a specific date.
They haven't said a specivic date once and I don't think they will start doing it now.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on April 20, 2016, 04:35:10 pm

Quote from: Brumby on April 20, 2016, 02:57:57 pm

I'll go for May 5th.

Seems there is a sympathetic 'vibe' with one of the well known amendments to a particular constitution.

May the 4th.... 

"This is not the battery life extending device you are looking for"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on April 20, 2016, 04:48:42 pm

Their IGG updates average about 1month apart so about 8 May 2016 is my bet (for an update, not for ship date). 

Their faecbook page constantly publishes meaningless content. In today's drivel we learn of the awesome:  "Reverse Polarity Protection Mechanism, which prevents any problems that might arise from inserting the battery into the Batteriser upside-down"

And the photoshop is a peach, where to even begin with that. Just take care, those pixels are sharp!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 20, 2016, 05:33:12 pm

WTF is that? Is that supposed to fit into a battery compartment.  :scared:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=218580;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on April 20, 2016, 05:49:44 pm

 :palm: They coatet the + / - contacts too  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on April 20, 2016, 06:10:57 pm

It is a colorized picture of an old sleeve design to make it look like the latest model:

(http://www.geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/batteriser-2.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on April 20, 2016, 07:20:26 pm

Nice.  Good catch.  They didn't color the reflection.  GG.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on April 20, 2016, 07:35:50 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on April 20, 2016, 12:53:39 pm

Quote from: Fungus on April 17, 2016, 05:02:40 pm

Quote from: Brumby on April 17, 2016, 02:00:00 pm

The military?

They've been using the "military" angle for about six months now.

Maybe it's just a sales angle aimed at patriotic crowdfunders. I can't imagine the military wouldn't test their "800%" claims - it's not like it's a difficult test to do.

Apparently the military doesn't test anything. Anyone who remembers the dowsing rod with no electronics at all in it for bomb detection? http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-22380368 (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-22380368) . At least the Batteriser might have a positive effect for some rare applications, if they don't ship just the sleeves without electronics.

Yes, and IIRC that individual was sent to prison.

And it was the *Iraqi* military that did no testing because of a cultural aversion to dogs for bomb sniffing. . Western forces were outraged at the use of a divining rod for bomb detection.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on April 20, 2016, 08:12:16 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on April 20, 2016, 06:10:57 pm

It is a colorized picture of an old sleeve design to make it look like the latest model:

(http://www.geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/batteriser-2.jpg)

Good find. Even that hi-res original has a breathtaking reflection which needs a 'Warning: Proximity to Batteriser may change the laws of physics' caption.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 21, 2016, 02:26:08 am

Quote from: Barny on April 20, 2016, 04:21:55 pm

Quote from: Brumby on April 20, 2016, 02:57:57 pm

I'll go for May 5th.

Seems there is a sympathetic 'vibe' with one of the well known amendments to a particular constitution.

I don't think they will anounce a specific date.
They haven't said a specivic date once and I don't think they will start doing it now.

The dates are not ones we expect them to announce (that's just not in their DNA) - they are dates on which we are postulating something might happen.  **

BTW - nobody is holding their breath.....




** Yes, it's getting that boring.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on April 21, 2016, 04:57:00 am

It's not that the US military might buy things without testing them, it's that they might test them and then buy them anyway.

Quote

An article in The Dallas Morning News in April 2007 explained that Sniffex is a divining rod and states that "In a test by the U.S. Navy, Sniffex didn't register when two trucks passed within 20 feet, hauling a half ton of explosives." The Navy's counterterrorism technology task force tested Sniffex and concluded "The Sniffex handheld explosives detector does not work." Despite this, the US military bought eight for $50,000

There was a whole cottage industry of these fake bomb detectors. The one sold to the Iraqi military is the most well known, but the good ol' US Army got bit by another, *after* determining they didn't work.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on April 21, 2016, 06:16:14 pm

Quote from: Brumby on April 20, 2016, 02:57:57 pm

I'll go for May 5th.

Seems there is a sympathetic 'vibe' with one of the well known amendments to a particular constitution.

May the 4th. That way we could settle our differences with toy light sabers that will allow us to fight for 800% longer!  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 22, 2016, 12:08:31 am

Quote from: ccs46 on April 21, 2016, 06:16:14 pm

Quote from: Brumby on April 20, 2016, 02:57:57 pm

I'll go for May 5th.

Seems there is a sympathetic 'vibe' with one of the well known amendments to a particular constitution.

May the 4th. That way we could settle our differences with toy light sabers that will allow us to fight for 800% longer!  :-DD

:-DD :-DD :-DD

You're on!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on April 22, 2016, 01:59:28 am

 With the whole Energizer thing hanging over Batteriser - is that wise? Given that Energizer did this 5 years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-fSDvENqiQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-fSDvENqiQ)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on April 23, 2016, 11:43:50 am

Quote from: Nerull on April 21, 2016, 04:57:00 am

Quote

An article in The Dallas Morning News in April 2007 explained that Sniffex is a divining rod and states that "In a test by the U.S. Navy, Sniffex didn't register when two trucks passed within 20 feet, hauling a half ton of explosives." The Navy's counterterrorism technology task force tested Sniffex and concluded "The Sniffex handheld explosives detector does not work." Despite this, the US military bought eight for $50,000

There was a whole cottage industry of these fake bomb detectors. The one sold to the Iraqi military is the most well known, but the good ol' US Army got bit by another, *after* determining they didn't work.

This (http://www.physics.smu.edu/~pseudo/sniffex.html) is the original article. How it works: "The Sniffex detector, invented in Bulgaria, is supposed to work by detecting the interference between the magnetic field of the earth, the explosive, the device itself and the human body. When it does, an antenna should rotate in the direction of the explosives.". So a divining rod. They sold more than 800 devices "outside the U.S., including to government agencies in Estonia, Turkey, Russia and the Middle East, Mr. Johnson said.". Scary that there are so many dumb or corrupt or both people out there, responsible for protecting the life of their people. So Battteriser has a good chance that the military buys it  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Johannsen on April 23, 2016, 03:00:40 pm

Soon they will announce a date and then it will take another one or two month to deliver....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 23, 2016, 11:15:57 pm

... to deliver what, exactly?

In order of decreasing probability:

1. Nothing
2. Another uninformative message
3. Another promise
4. Photos
...
...
73. A Batteriser

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on April 24, 2016, 04:57:36 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on April 23, 2016, 11:43:50 am

Scary that there are so many dumb or corrupt or both people out there, responsible for protecting the life of their people. So Battteriser has a good chance that the military buys it  :palm:

North Korean military perhaps? They could increase their strength 800% !

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on April 24, 2016, 08:09:41 am

Quote from: Halcyon on April 24, 2016, 04:57:36 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on April 23, 2016, 11:43:50 am

Scary that there are so many dumb or corrupt or both people out there, responsible for protecting the life of their people. So Battteriser has a good chance that the military buys it  :palm:

North Korean military perhaps? They could increase their strength 800% !

They don't need it.
The Great Leader can beat Chuck Norris 800 times in his sleep.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on April 26, 2016, 12:43:08 pm

Umm, they don't have an IC yet...  :-DD

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=220153;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on April 26, 2016, 01:42:31 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on April 26, 2016, 12:43:08 pm

Umm, they don't have an IC yet...  :-DD

They must think their customers are stupid...oh, wait...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on April 26, 2016, 02:17:26 pm

I've saw this article the other day: http://www.popsci.com/researchers-accidentally-make-batteries-last-400-times-longer (http://www.popsci.com/researchers-accidentally-make-batteries-last-400-times-longer)

And now think about adding a betteriszer with this invention!!!

800 * 400 == 320000%^* more battery life! Isn't that incredible?



^*Math are done accordingly to BTR scientific standards

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: grumpydoc on April 26, 2016, 02:47:55 pm

Quote from: Godzil on April 26, 2016, 02:17:26 pm

I've saw this article the other day: http://www.popsci.com/researchers-accidentally-make-batteries-last-400-times-longer (http://www.popsci.com/researchers-accidentally-make-batteries-last-400-times-longer)

And now think about adding a betteriszer with this invention!!!

800 * 400 == 320000%^* more battery life! Isn't that incredible?

^*Math are done accordingly to BTR scientific standards

Hang on the article says "The Irvine team's system cycled through 200,000 recharges without significant corrosion or decline"

They don't say how long the charge/discharge cycle is taking but let's assume 1 hour - that's 8333 days or 22 years if you do it continuously. Something doesn't add up.

Does anyone know what is going on?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: chris_leyson on April 26, 2016, 03:02:04 pm

It's tiny so it would cycle quite fast, http://www.kurzweilai.net/a-battery-you-never-have-to-replace (http://www.kurzweilai.net/a-battery-you-never-have-to-replace).
I also read somewhere that it is not even a true battery yet as it has two cathodes and no anode yet

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on April 26, 2016, 03:03:45 pm

Quote from: grumpydoc on April 26, 2016, 02:47:55 pm

They don't say how long the charge/discharge cycle is taking but let's assume 1 hour - that's 8333 days or 22 years if you do it continuously. Something doesn't add up.

Does anyone know what is going on?

Yes, battery engineers know what is going on.  Others--including myself--probably don't understand the prototype test systems used to test charge/discharge cycles in an accelerated fashion.  The article itself mentions that the system is not an actual battery but some kind of jig specifically used to test the corrosion effects specifically.   They said one of the next steps would be to build a more complete battery system to test their components in a more complete implementation.

One thing I can comment on is simulating accelerated lifetimes of semiconductors by using techniques such as elevated temperatures and voltages.  Basically you create a model of how lifetime is accelerated by elevating voltage/temperature and then you can use that model to simulate the effects of long lifetimes without ACTUALLY spending that amount of time.  It's not perfect of course, but is reasonably accurate.  While I don't think the team in this case did exactly that, there are probably other lifetime acceleration techniques they performed.  I would definitely not assume they ACTUALLY spent an hour on each charge/discharge cycle.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on April 26, 2016, 03:45:00 pm

Quote from: grumpydoc on April 26, 2016, 02:47:55 pm

They don't say how long the charge/discharge cycle is taking but let's assume 1 hour - that's 8333 days or 22 years if you do it continuously. Something doesn't add up.

Does anyone know what is going on?

I do not know, but a lot of experimental battery testing is done with button-sized batteries. They might be talking about a discharge-charge cycle as short as 1 minute but a capacity of only 10 uW.hours. It may be enough to test the concept, but a very long way from a useful battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ArdRhi on April 26, 2016, 04:32:51 pm

Biologists have a similar process. They test things that might affect DNA on fruit flies instead of other organisms with long life cycles. Fruit flies have life cycles on the scale of hours, so you can cram a LOT of generations in a few weeks/months. That lets you test something that might take decades or even centuries with other, longer-lived organisms, or millennia/eons with humans. The application might be different, but the concept still gets effectively and scientifically tested.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: grumpydoc on April 26, 2016, 05:51:48 pm

Fruit flies have life cycles on the order of a couple of weeks but the idea is right - you can cram quite a lot of life cycles into a relatively short time. Nematodes can have shorter life cycles - maybe a few days.

I actually thought that they had been doing some modelling with lower numbers of cycles. E.g cycle 1000 times, note 0.25% loss of capacity - extrapolate to 50% loss after 200,000 cycles, that sort of thing.
 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on April 26, 2016, 06:12:41 pm

In case someone didn't read the Facebook entry from yesterday and their recent answer of a question, that the UL test proves that the Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management needs only 170,000 batteries instead of 850,000 with the Batteriser. Hilarious as always:

(http://i.imgur.com/EJGIlSc.png)

Isn't this against the UL lab rules that they are not allowed to use the UL name, except when citing the full report?

PS: this is fun, how can I follow the Facebook page without clicking "like"?

PPS: the original article about the 850,000 batteries: http://nwnewsnetwork.org/post/amazoncom-wildland-firefighting-keeping-crews-fed-and-supplied (http://nwnewsnetwork.org/post/amazoncom-wildland-firefighting-keeping-crews-fed-and-supplied)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on April 26, 2016, 06:18:38 pm

One thing that does not fit, all the radio system I know, even old one (early 2000) use Li-Ion/Li-Po battery and not D/C/A/AA/AAA/AAAAAAAAA batteries so...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on April 26, 2016, 06:24:25 pm

Hey, I didn't know the Forest Service used Golf GPS units to fight fires!  You learn something new every day!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on April 26, 2016, 06:54:09 pm

Quote from: Godzil on April 26, 2016, 06:18:38 pm

One thing that does not fit, all the radio system I know, even old one (early 2000) use Li-Ion/Li-Po battery and not D/C/A/AA/AAA/AAAAAAAAA batteries so...

The weird thing is that the original article says:

The warehouse contains millions of dollars of inventory waiting to ship out on demand. Of the most popular items to be shipped, number one is AA batteries. More than 850,000 of those went out of here last year, mostly to power hand-held radios.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: chris_leyson on April 26, 2016, 07:02:52 pm

680,000 LESS batteries in landfill, I think maybe more batteries in landfill because the batterizer will drain them faster, rapidly followed by a lot of batterizers, that's assuming the batterizer ever gets buit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on April 26, 2016, 07:06:03 pm

Sounds plausible. Wikipedia says "Bureau of Land Management" has 11,000 employees. Not everyone needs batteries for their work, but maybe needs to be replaced for some devices every few days, and it would result in 850,000. They could save lots of tax money, and save the nature, by using rechargeable batteries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on April 26, 2016, 07:26:14 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on April 26, 2016, 07:06:03 pm

Sounds plausible. Wikipedia says "Bureau of Land Management" has 11,000 employees. Not everyone needs batteries for their work, but maybe needs to be replaced for some devices every few days, and it would result in 850,000. They could save lots of tax money, and save the nature, by using rechargeable batteries.

Or device with proper Lithium battery.

The last company I was working for was making trunked radio, and some used by police, they use lithium battery. I don't get the use of AA battery, there are more problem using them than benefit. Rechargeable battery can be recharged using so many ways that the fact you can buy nearly anywhere AA battery is not really relevant, and to be honest, on the field, I doubt you find a lot of shop with AA/C & co batteries :D (but, sun, wind, or even hands, yes for sure)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: chris_leyson on April 26, 2016, 07:35:37 pm

Quote

They could save lots of tax money, and save the nature, by using rechargeable batteries.

:-+ Exactly, use rechargeable batteries. But come to think of it I don't remember seeing AA batteries in hand held radios, they're all rechargeable now. Had a 70cm hand held in the 80's and that may have had a battery holder for three or four AA cells, but that was 30 years ago.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on April 26, 2016, 08:16:32 pm

Quote from: chris_leyson on April 26, 2016, 07:35:37 pm

But come to think of it I don't remember seeing AA batteries in hand held radios, they're all rechargeable now. Had a 70cm hand held in the 80's and that may have had a battery holder for three or four AA cells, but that was 30 years ago.

I've heard some organizations here in Germany (police) are still using very old hand held radios. The good thing is that they can be repaired easily (if you have some surplus devices for spare parts), but often they use just mobile phones because it is more reliable.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on April 26, 2016, 09:43:55 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on April 26, 2016, 08:16:32 pm

Quote from: chris_leyson on April 26, 2016, 07:35:37 pm

But come to think of it I don't remember seeing AA batteries in hand held radios, they're all rechargeable now. Had a 70cm hand held in the 80's and that may have had a battery holder for three or four AA cells, but that was 30 years ago.

I've heard some organizations here in Germany (police) are still using very old hand held radios. The good thing is that they can be repaired easily (if you have some surplus devices for spare parts), but often they use just mobile phones because it is more reliable.

I though that German police was switching to Tetra network some times ago, I doubt there is any tetra device using AA battery...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on April 27, 2016, 01:42:00 am

Just curious so here are some approved radios

https://www.nifc.gov/NIICD/docs/approved_radios.pdf (https://www.nifc.gov/NIICD/docs/approved_radios.pdf)

I traced one and it used lithium batteries with optional alkaline battery power pack add on (I assume AA)

so I would say everyone is right  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on April 27, 2016, 02:22:06 am

Is it possible that a battery booster could work?

I assume I could find the answer by reading 5,000 messages but it is faster to ask.

Here are the voltage specs for a Midland STP105B  approved radio

http://midlandusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/STP-Series-P25-Operation-Manual_Ver6_0.pdf (http://midlandusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/STP-Series-P25-Operation-Manual_Ver6_0.pdf)

Operating Voltage Range is 7.5 Vdc ± % 20 (6.0-9.0 Vdc)

Here is the alkaline battery pack  (no other info)

https://midlandusa.com/product/90-1015-p25-portable-battery/ (https://midlandusa.com/product/90-1015-p25-portable-battery/)

Lets assume the following:

- The operating time needs to increase by 80% (not 800%)
- The max voltage with AA batteries is 9v and they run down to 6 v

so there are 6 AA batteries in series (unknown parallel) so each one starts at 1.5 v
and the radio stops working when each cell reaches 1.0 volts

Is there enough energy below 1.0 v to be boosted to 1.0 or above to provide more energy ?

Lets disregard physical size.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 27, 2016, 02:49:03 am

There are several 'Ifs' and 'Buts' which include current requirements and when the Batteriser is inserted, but the fundamental is this: We all agree boost circuits have the potential to hold voltages up - but the question is for how long?

From Dave's video (original post): https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg687387/#msg687387 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg687387/#msg687387)

Red = Used battery energy
Green = Wasted battery energy
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=220356;image)

When you consider a lot of gear has been checked to still operate down to 1.0V (and lower) that green area shrinks even more dramatically.

Nobody here sees 800% in any real world application and you'd be lucky to find anyone who feels that there is any real practical benefit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on April 27, 2016, 03:05:22 am

Quote

Nobody here sees 800% in any real world application and you'd be lucky to find anyone who feels that there is any real practical benefit.

They are saying 80% now not 800%.

There does not look like there is much left under 1.0v

thanks

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on April 27, 2016, 03:41:34 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on April 26, 2016, 06:12:41 pm

In case someone didn't read the Facebook entry from yesterday and their recent answer of a question, that the UL test proves that the Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management needs only 170,000 batteries instead of 850,000 with the Batteriser. Hilarious as always:

(http://i.imgur.com/EJGIlSc.png)

Isn't this against the UL lab rules that they are not allowed to use the UL name, except when citing the full report?

PS: this is fun, how can I follow the Facebook page without clicking "like"?

PPS: the original article about the 850,000 batteries: http://nwnewsnetwork.org/post/amazoncom-wildland-firefighting-keeping-crews-fed-and-supplied (http://nwnewsnetwork.org/post/amazoncom-wildland-firefighting-keeping-crews-fed-and-supplied)

I don't math so good, but 80% longer run time does not equal 80% less batteries in land fill...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on April 27, 2016, 05:00:13 am

Perhaps they all have 2 wall clocks in each room of each office. Those all being the nice continuous movement type that use an AA cell at a rate of one per month or so. 11000 employees, 22000 batteries per month and thus 264000 per year per employee. Assuming they grab a pack of 4, and often take the 2 they need to use and the other 2 home, then they might get to 850000 per year.

Otherwise they have a warehouse with 2000000 AA batteries in it, and because they throw away around half a year because they have expired, and the order system simply replaces them again because they are stock lost in system this probably amounts for it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on April 27, 2016, 05:34:07 am

Quote from: ez24 on April 27, 2016, 02:22:06 am

Is it possible that a battery booster could work?

..
Here are the voltage specs for a Midland STP105B  approved radio

http://midlandusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/STP-Series-P25-Operation-Manual_Ver6_0.pdf (http://midlandusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/STP-Series-P25-Operation-Manual_Ver6_0.pdf)

Is there enough energy below 1.0 v to be boosted to 1.0 or above to provide more energy ?

Looking at the specs of that device, it uses perhaps 200mA when receiving and perhaps 1.5A when transmitting. The batteriser boosts to 1.5V, so even if it were 100% efficient, that would need 2.25A at 1V cell voltage for transmit and 3.21A at 0.7V. Now, if you look at the typical battery boosting inverter chip, its efficiency usually falls off dramatically at low voltages so it is common to get maybe 65% efficiency at 1V and maybe 40% at 0.7V.

Using these guestimate figures, that would mean that to counteract the inefficiency, you would need 3.5A at 1V cell voltage and 8A at 0.7V. Anyone who has ever tested an AA battery knows that if the battery is at 1V and you try and draw these currents, the battery voltage will be in freefall. You might get 5 seconds out of it. Basically with these radios, you will get less life with the Batteriser as the higher battery voltage probably means the transmitter runs at a higher power but for a shorter time. The Batteriser will also lose maybe 10% of the power through converter losses when the batteries are still fresh so that will shorten the life further. Without the batteriser, the transmitter will keep working for longer but the transmit power will be a little lower.

The story actually gets worse since there is no way the Batteriser can seriously maintain input currents of 3.2 A at 1V or 8A at 0.7V. Again, if you look at typical battery boosting ICs, the peak output current drops of quickly as the battery voltage drops. So even if the converter can do 2A at 1.4V, it may only do 1A peak at 1V and 500mA at 0.7V.

So the end result is the batteries will not last as long, you cannot really use the energy when the battery voltage gets near 1V, and worse of all, the battery meter on the radio will indicate a full charge until the random point in time that the radio goes dead. No warning of the radio shutdown to the emergency workers who may be in a dangerous and critical situation at the time.

If these services are using so many batteries, it is probably because they have a policy to always send emergency workers out with a new fresh set of batteries, and the Batteriser would have no effect on a policy like that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on April 27, 2016, 06:36:38 am

Quote from: Godzil on April 26, 2016, 09:43:55 pm

I though that German police was switching to Tetra network some times ago, I doubt there is any tetra device using AA battery...

They planned to use it in 2006, but in 2014 it still didn't work for all regions in Germany:
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article131472860/Deutschland-versagt-beim-Digitalfunk.html (http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article131472860/Deutschland-versagt-beim-Digitalfunk.html)
Maybe this year it works :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 27, 2016, 06:42:05 am

Quote from: ez24 on April 27, 2016, 03:05:22 am

Quote

Nobody here sees 800% in any real world application and you'd be lucky to find anyone who feels that there is any real practical benefit.

They are saying 80% now not 800%.
There does not look like there is much left under 1.0v

They are still claiming only 20% of a batteries capacity is used in a typical product.
The reason they use is pulse currents causing products to drop out at 20% of used battery capacity  :palm:
See their latest "technical" video for all that waffle.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on April 27, 2016, 07:06:00 am

Quote from: EEVblog on April 27, 2016, 06:42:05 am

Quote from: ez24 on April 27, 2016, 03:05:22 am

Quote

Nobody here sees 800% in any real world application and you'd be lucky to find anyone who feels that there is any real practical benefit.

They are saying 80% now not 800%.
There does not look like there is much left under 1.0v

They are still claiming only 20% of a batteries capacity is used in a typical product.
The reason they use is pulse currents causing products to drop out at 20% of used battery capacity  :palm:
See their latest "technical" video for all that waffle.

"80% increase in energy" doesn't mean 20% is being used, it means 55% is.... then the batteriser gives an "80% increase in energy" yielding 100% of the batteries capacity being used...

But their claims can change all they want really, because it isn't going to happen anyway, no matter the claims!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 27, 2016, 08:16:45 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on April 26, 2016, 06:12:41 pm

Isn't this against the UL lab rules that they are not allowed to use the UL name, except when citing the full report?

Yes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 27, 2016, 08:29:06 am

My reply:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=220449;image)


PS: The Batteriser post is a good example of "making people think past the sale" - it creates the image of some life-or-death Firemen using Batterisers in his equipment even though: a) Said firemen don't know Batteriser even exists, and b) Not a single Batteriser has ever been shipped or been tested.

It shows Bob is a good salesman if nothing else.

(Donald Trump is master of this sales technique - it's why he has loads of followers even though his whole campaign is garbage if you analyze it)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 27, 2016, 08:33:55 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on April 26, 2016, 06:12:41 pm

Isn't this against the UL lab rules that they are not allowed to use the UL name, except when citing the full report?

Yes, and I bet UL will come to regret doing that for them. IIRC UL already had to respond to reports about Batteriser doing this and said they would take them to task over it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on April 27, 2016, 11:12:14 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on April 26, 2016, 12:43:08 pm

Umm, they don't have an IC yet...  :-DD

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=220153;image)

Quote

produced and tested to meet our highest quality standards.

See what they did there? Thanks to a strategical placed 'our' this whole sentence means nothing. But the believers (are there any left?) now get 'Batteriser= High quality' programmed in their mind.

To me it seems they are more busy trying to get more buyers than with the actual ongoing campaign. And they probably have to. I think the current IGG outcome of around 150k batterisers is the worst they could have gotten. The amount is just big to go as a trial batch, but to low for mass production at the price they targeted at.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on April 27, 2016, 01:38:24 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 27, 2016, 08:33:55 am

Yes, and I bet UL will come to regret doing that for them. IIRC UL already had to respond to reports about Batteriser doing this and said they would take them to task over it.

Batteriser also got UL to test to check if passed the FCC RF noise specs. I was surprised they were allowed to have the test done with a 1K resistor as the load. Batteriser claim to be able to output as much power as the battery can output, and that means amps so you are not going to have much noise at under 1000th of the supposed maximum current.
http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_Report_FCC.pdf (http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_Report_FCC.pdf)
It could be worse then that. I think the Batteriser generates a voltage it adds to the + terminal and if the battery is over 1.5V, it is not generating any power. If the battery is 1.2V, the Batteriser generates 0.3V and adds it to the 1.2V. If they gave UL new batteries  and a 1K load, the converter oscillator may be running, but it is not switching power. I would think a proper noise test would be with a 2A load when the battery is 1V.

Why I am suspicious is it looks like the converter switches at 1.5MHz, but there little noise at 30MHz and above. 30MHz is only the 20th harmonic and the Batteriser doesn't have room for great filtering. Any switching noise current is travelling along the stainless clamp and that looks like a pretty good RF radiator. One test did have noise at 30MHz that was 20dB below the limit, and if that unit was running at full power instead of 1.5mA, it probably would have been over the FCC limit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 27, 2016, 02:34:01 pm

Quote from: PeterL on April 27, 2016, 11:12:14 am

To me it seems they are more busy trying to get more buyers than with the actual ongoing campaign. And they probably have to. I think the current IGG outcome of around 150k batterisers is the worst they could have gotten.

It was a bad result, and I'm sure they and the investors were not happy. They extended the campaign for a few extra weeks to try and rake in some more doh, but it didn't work.
The money they got is chump change to a professional VC funded start-up like this.
The whole plan went to crap on them. They didn't count on the poor funding result, and they most certainly didn't count on being challenged by the entire engineering community, how annoying!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on April 27, 2016, 03:01:03 pm

Clamp is only separated from the battery positive by 2 thin plastic sleeves, so it might get a benefit from the small capacitance. Though I do agree that a 1k test load only means the converter will run in a hiccup mode, so it likely only was emitting a few short pulses of energy, which integrate to a low emission as the test is not too sensitive to low frequency impulse noise as it scans the band.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on April 27, 2016, 03:30:11 pm

Quote from: SeanB on April 27, 2016, 03:01:03 pm

Clamp is only separated from the battery positive by 2 thin plastic sleeves, so it might get a benefit from the small capacitance. Though I do agree that a 1k test load only means the converter will run in a hiccup mode, so it likely only was emitting a few short pulses of energy, which integrate to a low emission as the test is not too sensitive to low frequency impulse noise as it scans the band.

This FCC test was for marketing purposes only. They needed a test report with the words "Batteriser", "FCC", and "Passed" in it, just to react on comments made by these nasty EE's

And since they designed a whole new IC for the batteriser (ahum) this FCC test is now useless anyway.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on April 27, 2016, 03:41:59 pm

Are they designing a new chip, or are they trying to source an available part in chip form? They do not have the height for any packaged chip.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on April 27, 2016, 05:18:32 pm

Quote from: PeterL on April 27, 2016, 03:30:11 pm

Quote from: SeanB on April 27, 2016, 03:01:03 pm

Clamp is only separated from the battery positive by 2 thin plastic sleeves, so it might get a benefit from the small capacitance. Though I do agree that a 1k test load only means the converter will run in a hiccup mode, so it likely only was emitting a few short pulses of energy, which integrate to a low emission as the test is not too sensitive to low frequency impulse noise as it scans the band.

This FCC test was for marketing purposes only. They needed a test report with the words "Batteriser", "FCC", and "Passed" in it, just to react on comments made by these nasty EE's

And since they designed a whole new IC for the batteriser (ahum) this FCC test is now useless anyway.

I was looking at this report, and I am very suspicious of the spurii at the frequency of older GSM and CDMA cellular phones, along with the almost total lack of any testing below 30MHz, where most noise will be emitted. Also the battery used is very suspicious, either they stripped the label off an Energiser or Duracell alkaline cell to not have a brand, or they wanted to thin out the dielectric of the radiating connector strip to that of the sleeve insulation alone, to double the capacitance it provides for RF attenuation. Were they all standing around outside the test chamber talking on their assorted phones to others during the test, the varying nature of the RF looks like that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on April 27, 2016, 07:37:44 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 27, 2016, 02:34:01 pm

...

It was a bad result, and I'm sure they and the investors were not happy. They extended the campaign for a few extra weeks to try and rake in some more doh, but it didn't work.
The money they got is chump change to a professional VC funded start-up like this.
The whole plan went to crap on them. They didn't count on the poor funding result, and they most certainly didn't count on being challenged by the entire engineering community, how annoying!

You live. You learn.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 27, 2016, 07:43:43 pm

Quote from: jancumps on April 27, 2016, 07:37:44 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 27, 2016, 02:34:01 pm

The whole plan went to crap on them.

You live. You learn.

You don't tell lies. You don't try to sell ripoff bullshit products.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on April 27, 2016, 07:45:02 pm

Yes. Is should have added "... with someone else's money."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on April 27, 2016, 11:51:21 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 27, 2016, 06:42:05 am

Quote from: ez24 on April 27, 2016, 03:05:22 am

Quote

Nobody here sees 800% in any real world application and you'd be lucky to find anyone who feels that there is any real practical benefit.

They are saying 80% now not 800%.
There does not look like there is much left under 1.0v

They are still claiming only 20% of a batteries capacity is used in a typical product.
The reason they use is pulse currents causing products to drop out at 20% of used battery capacity  :palm:

Which is correct with a really badly designed product (and I never met one) and even in this case you just need to restart the product and it will work until the next spike.

So.. :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on April 28, 2016, 11:38:18 am

Quote from: Godzil on April 27, 2016, 11:51:21 pm

Which is correct with a really badly designed product (and I never met one) and even in this case you just need to restart the product and it will work until the next spike.

So.. :D

Some of the older digital cameras that used AAs would only take a few shots with new alkaline cells fitted due to very high peak currents.

A Batteriser almost certainly wouldn't be able to supply the peak currents required, so would likely stop the camera working at all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on April 28, 2016, 11:58:00 am

Quote from: Godzil on April 27, 2016, 11:51:21 pm

A Batteriser almost certainly wouldn't be able to supply the peak currents required, so would likely stop the camera working at all.

From my understanding of the patents, the Batteriser generates a voltage in series with the battery. When a battery has a high internal resistance because it is exhausted, there is nothing the Batteriser can with high pulsed currents since the battery is still in series. The Batteriser has to try and put out its greatest output power at the point there is a minimal voltage across the battery - that is not believable.

I think there may have been some good engineer involved with the Batteriser. I think they have had some kind of working prototype which would be impressive even if it can only do 200mA. I think the PCBs are not a fibreglass substrate - I think they are a thin aluminium substrate with very thin fibreglass layers each side. If that engineer exists, we would love to talk to him/her. That engineer would know exactly what the Batteriser can and cannot do. Instead all we hear is bogus marketing twaddle.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on April 28, 2016, 12:16:36 pm

 Batterizer's 'engineers' are a bunch of PhDs who call non-PhD engineers like Dave idiots because they cannot grasp this miraculous breakthrough they have made. No really, go back to the early pages of this thread and see their response to Dave's videos showing his experiments and test results proving this is utter rubbish. This is an all too common occurrence - if you've followed the thread on the Triton gill thing, anyone presenting evidence of how it cannot possibly work as presented are called haters. Hell, if Dave really were as far up the arse of 'Big Battery' as Batterizer might like you to think, he really could have bought the old Altium building for a new lab.  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on April 28, 2016, 12:40:25 pm

In that case, I suspect there was one non-Phd guy who had to sit at the tiny desk next to the toilets who is the only one that has actually ever built anything. He would have done their first prototype. The PhD's have probably sacked him by now for not understanding the big concept either. So now there is no-one left who can do anything but wave their hands in an impressive PhD way and talk in a way that mortals cannot possibly understand because they are just too stupid.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on April 28, 2016, 12:56:47 pm

 The engineers responsible for this product have been sacked and replaced by llamas.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on April 28, 2016, 01:08:44 pm

Is it normal for unapproved/hidden from page visitors posts to be visible?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=220686;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 28, 2016, 01:21:07 pm

Quote from: mikerj on April 28, 2016, 11:38:18 am

Some of the older digital cameras that used AAs would only take a few shots with new alkaline cells fitted due to very peak currents.
A Batteriser almost certainly wouldn't be able to supply the peak currents required, so would likely stop the camera working at all.

Of course it won't work. No way in hell an ultra tiny boost converter like that can match the IR of NiMH cells.
IRCC in their long "technical" video they show the current spikes on a camera as an example, but didn't put the Batteriser in to actually show it works  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on April 28, 2016, 01:28:42 pm

The camera's programmers would have code that safely shuts down a camera when the battery is low, as they know the voltage never disappears in an instant. They can make sure shutters are in a safe position, that CCD protectors are back in position, that memory writes complete so that the memory does not get corrupted. The Batteriser will shut down in an instant - even in the middle of a shot - which will bypass all the camera's normal software protections.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 28, 2016, 01:31:27 pm

Quote from: Godzil on April 27, 2016, 11:51:21 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 27, 2016, 06:42:05 am

They are still claiming only 20% of a batteries capacity is used in a typical product.
The reason they use is pulse currents causing products to drop out at 20% of used battery capacity  :palm:

Which is correct with a really badly designed product (and I never met one)

Correct. Theoretically possible, but finding a real product that does that in the wild would be very hard.
Most battery powered products are:
a) Designed correctly to get at least decent battery life
and
b) Have regulators, bypassing caps, and low voltage dropout circuits etc that handle any required pulse currents just fine. Which is why on all but niche examples, using a power supply to measure the battery cutoff voltage is and industry standard way to do test for battery cutoff voltage. Indeed, the one method that actually lets you easily test what the actual cutoff voltage of the product circuitry is.

Digital cameras that weren't designed for alkalines that need huge charging currents for the photoflash are the only obvious candidate that comes to mind.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 28, 2016, 01:35:46 pm

Quote from: amspire on April 28, 2016, 01:28:42 pm

The camera's programmers would have code that safely shuts down a camera when the battery is low, as they know the voltage never disappears in an instant. They can make sure shutters are in a safe position, that CCD protectors are back in position, that memory writes complete so that the memory does not get corrupted. The Batteriser will shut down in an instant - even in the middle of a shot - which will bypass all the camera's normal software protections.

Yup. Even if the Batterieser actually works (and I'm sure it does as a boost converter as claimed, up to some given current), you cannot escape the fundamental flaw in the entire concept, which is instant product shutdown without warning. Right there it's a dead-duck product people will not use once they realise how shitty that "feature" is.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 28, 2016, 01:38:11 pm

2nd person claiming to have gotten a refund?
(http://i.imgur.com/XP072xD.png)

Love the second comment  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on April 28, 2016, 01:57:13 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 28, 2016, 01:31:27 pm

Quote from: Godzil on April 27, 2016, 11:51:21 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 27, 2016, 06:42:05 am

They are still claiming only 20% of a batteries capacity is used in a typical product.
The reason they use is pulse currents causing products to drop out at 20% of used battery capacity  :palm:

Which is correct with a really badly designed product (and I never met one)

Correct. Theoretically possible, but finding a real product that does that in the wild would be very hard.
Most battery powered products are:
a) Designed correctly to get at least decent battery life
and
b) Have regulators, bypassing caps, and low voltage dropout circuits etc that handle any required pulse currents just fine. Which is why on all but niche examples, using a power supply to measure the battery cutoff voltage is and industry standard way to do test for battery cutoff voltage. Indeed, the one method that actually lets you easily test what the actual cutoff voltage of the product circuitry is.

Of course, that what I had in mind by saying that I've never met one, even the old and honorable Gameboy just makes it's power LED to flick to tell that the battery are low, but not shutdown the product.

As I says way ago, a batterizer with a configurable (manually or automatically) output voltage to
- tell that the battery is going down
- make sure that the differential voltage does not get absurdly high, like 0.7V when boosting from 0.8V to 1.5V
That may works a bit better, will not make it's assertions of course, but at least would prevent prevent device from shutting without warning.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on April 28, 2016, 07:55:11 pm

Quote from: rrinker on April 28, 2016, 12:16:36 pm

Batterizer's 'engineers' are a bunch of PhDs who call non-PhD engineers like Dave idiots because they cannot grasp this miraculous breakthrough they have made. No really, go back to the early pages of this thread and see their response to Dave's videos showing his experiments and test results proving this is utter rubbish. This is an all too common occurrence - if you've followed the thread on the Triton gill thing, anyone presenting evidence of how it cannot possibly work as presented are called haters. Hell, if Dave really were as far up the arse of 'Big Battery' as Batterizer might like you to think, he really could have bought the old Altium building for a new lab.  :-DD

Well, yes and no. Somewhere behind all this is some poor sod of an actual engineer who is trying to get out of the door, while knowing that it is impossible, some semblance of what marketing, sales and management have promised. We've never heard from, or seen, that engineer - we've only heard from marketing, sales and management. Anybody who's been responsible for the actual design and production of a real product in the real world will recognise this situation, it's just that the Batteriser farce is in a whole new league.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on April 30, 2016, 08:49:35 pm

So, what's their plan?  Make as many as possible in the first run, get them out on store shelves before all the crap reviews pour in and run with the money?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on April 30, 2016, 08:59:13 pm

Quote from: Cerebus on April 28, 2016, 07:55:11 pm

Well, yes and no. Somewhere behind all this is some poor sod of an actual engineer who is trying to get out of the door, while knowing that it is impossible, some semblance of what marketing, sales and management have promised. We've never heard from, or seen, that engineer - we've only heard from marketing, sales and management. Anybody who's been responsible for the actual design and production of a real product in the real world will recognise this situation, it's just that the Batteriser farce is in a whole new league.

In the companies for which I worked, marketing and sales sometimes promised features and deadlines to customers without asking the developers first, but usually they know what is physically impossible.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: miguelvp on April 30, 2016, 09:40:51 pm

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on April 30, 2016, 08:49:35 pm

So, what's their plan?  Make as many as possible in the first run, get them out on store shelves before all the crap reviews pour in and run with the money?

What money? if they actually fulfill their orders the manufacturing costs shipping etc will eat up those $400K quick.

A lot of people think their plan is to ship them and quickly sell the intellectual property for a big profit to some sap.
 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on April 30, 2016, 10:39:16 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on April 30, 2016, 08:59:13 pm

Quote from: Cerebus on April 28, 2016, 07:55:11 pm

Well, yes and no. Somewhere behind all this is some poor sod of an actual engineer who is trying to get out of the door, while knowing that it is impossible, some semblance of what marketing, sales and management have promised. We've never heard from, or seen, that engineer - we've only heard from marketing, sales and management. Anybody who's been responsible for the actual design and production of a real product in the real world will recognise this situation, it's just that the Batteriser farce is in a whole new league.

In the companies for which I worked, marketing and sales sometimes promised features and deadlines to customers without asking the developers first, but usually they know what is physically impossible.

I've worked with a lot of salesmen who have absolutely no clue what the difference between physically possible and impossible is and don't have the sense to ask first.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on April 30, 2016, 10:51:55 pm

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on April 30, 2016, 08:49:35 pm

So, what's their plan?  Make as many as possible in the first run, get them out on store shelves before all the crap reviews pour in and run with the money?

It's almost certain that's what they were hoping for, hence the K-Mart President on the board who has now shot through and it seems they have no consumer retail deal that would have made it all commercially viable. They are up the proverbial brown creek without a paddle.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on April 30, 2016, 11:09:19 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 30, 2016, 10:51:55 pm

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on April 30, 2016, 08:49:35 pm

So, what's their plan?  Make as many as possible in the first run, get them out on store shelves before all the crap reviews pour in and run with the money?

It's almost certain that's what they were hoping for, hence the K-Mart President on the board who has now shot through and it seems they have no consumer retail deal that would have made it all commercially viable. They are up the proverbial brown creek without a paddle.

Bros Roohparvar forgot to bring a canoe as well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on April 30, 2016, 11:49:50 pm

I was in Costco the other day and expressed some bemusement at the full sized Canadian Canoe on sale. I mean, ok, I am next to the river Mersey, but... :-//

Kwik e Mart has dropped them, maybe Costco will have them?... Those Kirkland Alkalines that are always on sale could do with a boost!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on May 01, 2016, 12:29:24 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on April 30, 2016, 11:09:19 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 30, 2016, 10:51:55 pm

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on April 30, 2016, 08:49:35 pm

So, what's their plan?  Make as many as possible in the first run, get them out on store shelves before all the crap reviews pour in and run with the money?

It's almost certain that's what they were hoping for, hence the K-Mart President on the board who has now shot through and it seems they have no consumer retail deal that would have made it all commercially viable. They are up the proverbial brown creek without a paddle.

Bros Roohparvar forgot to bring a canoe as well.

with a bit of sealant a 800% larger batteriser would make a viable (if small) canoe

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kaptein QK on May 02, 2016, 07:53:14 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on April 30, 2016, 11:09:19 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on April 30, 2016, 10:51:55 pm

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on April 30, 2016, 08:49:35 pm

So, what's their plan?  Make as many as possible in the first run, get them out on store shelves before all the crap reviews pour in and run with the money?

It's almost certain that's what they were hoping for, hence the K-Mart President on the board who has now shot through and it seems they have no consumer retail deal that would have made it all commercially viable. They are up the proverbial brown creek without a paddle.

Bros Roohparvar forgot to bring a canoe as well.

Maybe they can use that infamous dumpster? :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on May 03, 2016, 04:49:45 am

Long ago, it was September.  Smart men said our world would be rocked no later than November. 

It is now May.  Will Bros. Roohparvar ever come out to play?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 6581 on May 03, 2016, 05:02:55 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on May 03, 2016, 04:49:45 am

Long ago, it was September.  Smart men said our world would be rocked no later than November. 

It is now May.  Will Bros. Roohparvar ever come out to play?

It'll take just 800% longer and then the wait is over. The finished, shipped, certified and thoroughly tested device will be amazing. Magical.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on May 03, 2016, 09:00:13 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=221879;image)
Brilliant explanation for the delay: the word 'soon' was broken. But they fixed it!

However it looks like the word 'very' is acting up now. Bummer.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=221881;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on May 03, 2016, 01:23:08 pm

Quote from: PeterL on May 03, 2016, 09:00:13 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=221879;image)

What ... can ... I ... say......?     :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on May 03, 2016, 01:24:20 pm

Reminds me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gNIwlRClHsQ#t=17 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gNIwlRClHsQ#t=17)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on May 03, 2016, 02:05:22 pm

I feel like the person who wrote that doesn't fully speak English or something.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on May 03, 2016, 02:08:55 pm

The big giveaway is usually the use of commas where a spoken voice would use a pause.  So, it sometimes looks like this, and they'll put a comma before an and.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on May 03, 2016, 02:19:16 pm

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on May 03, 2016, 02:08:55 pm

The big giveaway is usually the use of commas where a spoken voice would use a pause.  So, it sometimes looks like this, and they'll put a comma before an and.

Nowt wrong with an Oxford comma.  I'm a big fan of it, me.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: klunkerbus on May 03, 2016, 02:49:18 pm

"... the current 'soon' is much, much closer than the 'soon' of the past."

Man, that's classic.  I wish I would have had those words handy when I was explaining schedule delays as a program manager at an aerospace company.  I think I would have put them on the title page of my presentation.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on May 03, 2016, 02:52:13 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=221879;image)

There's that weird arse talk just like the Youtube "Fan Page" channel. They talk about "we on the Facebook page" as if they are not formally associated with Batteroo, and then in the next breath say "We don't want that to happen again" as if they are Batteroo. Then it's the "Batteriser Team" again, then talking like they have daily updates from the "Batteriser Team". Then they talk definitely about "we" extending guarantees like they speak officially on behalf of Batteroo.
The Facebook page is a farce, nothing on there matters.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on May 03, 2016, 03:01:49 pm

The ever diligent Hannah Francis is back calling out Batteriser and others!  :-+

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/the-perks-and-pitfalls-of-crowdfunding-20160429-goicl5 (http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/the-perks-and-pitfalls-of-crowdfunding-20160429-goicl5)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on May 03, 2016, 03:35:59 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on May 03, 2016, 03:01:49 pm

The ever diligent Hannah Francis is back calling out Batteriser and others  :palm:

Ah yes, a lazy jounro who was only out to screw you over, if I remember correctly!  >:D  Glad we talked you into doing the piece with her though mate.  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on May 03, 2016, 06:43:48 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on May 03, 2016, 02:52:13 pm

There's that weird arse talk just like the Youtube "Fan Page" channel. They talk about "we on the Facebook page" as if they are not formally associated with Batteroo, and then in the next breath say "We don't want that to happen again" as if they are Batteroo. Then it's the "Batteriser Team" again, then talking like they have daily updates from the "Batteriser Team". Then they talk definitely about "we" extending guarantees like they speak officially on behalf of Batteroo.
The Facebook page is a farce, nothing on there matters.

Batteroo's marketing department only seems to operate when three sheets to the wind.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on May 03, 2016, 07:12:49 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on May 03, 2016, 02:52:13 pm

There's that weird arse talk just like the Youtube "Fan Page" channel. They talk about "we on the Facebook page" as if they are not formally associated with Batteroo, and then in the next breath say "We don't want that to happen again" as if they are Batteroo. Then it's the "Batteriser Team" again, then talking like they have daily updates from the "Batteriser Team". Then they talk definitely about "we" extending guarantees like they speak officially on behalf of Batteroo.
The Facebook page is a farce, nothing on there matters.

If there is no association between Batteroo and this facebook page, then this is completely out of line:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=221979;image)

I did not find anything about a drop shipping program on their website, yet it is on facebook.
That just makes no sense to me if facebook/batteriser != Batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on May 04, 2016, 12:20:07 am

Batteroo out-source the Facebook presence to a PR company so there are likely multiple authors and hence styles. It's probably also challenging to convincingly write in first person plural when the content is so vapid, truths must be withheld, and contradictions of earlier over-zealous statements avoided.

This same PR firm (JPR Communications) most likely run twitter, instagram, and all other official channels. Not sure if they were officially associated with the early 'fan' channels too or whether those fans were loose cannons from a different set of batteroo affiliates.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on May 04, 2016, 02:41:42 am

Quote from: rich on May 04, 2016, 12:20:07 am

This same PR firm (JPR Communications) most likely run twitter, instagram, and all other official channels. Not sure if they were officially associated with the early 'fan' channels too or whether those fans were loose cannons from a different set of batteroo affiliates.

The Youtube "fan page" kid (who posted under multiple names) claimed to be a friend of Bob's son or some such from the same uni. But again often talking as if he worked for them and could speak for them. He also asked for (using the batteriser gmail account) official requests from media to organise the media kits which of course they never sent to anyone.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on May 04, 2016, 02:45:50 am

Quote from: Delta on May 03, 2016, 03:35:59 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on May 03, 2016, 03:01:49 pm

The ever diligent Hannah Francis is back calling out Batteriser and others  :palm:

Ah yes, a lazy jounro who was only out to screw you over, if I remember correctly!  >:D  Glad we talked you into doing the piece with her though mate.  :-+

I didn't do the piece, I refused to be involved given the horrible track record of nearly all media who have covered this (and having been burned by media in the past). Turned out she did a stand-up job of it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on May 04, 2016, 07:04:53 am

April 26th, they didn't have an IC yet...
May 4th, a week later, and they're shipping soon!

They haven't built anything  :scared:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on May 04, 2016, 07:07:00 am

May the 4th be with you.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on May 04, 2016, 10:31:30 am

Quote from: rich on May 04, 2016, 12:20:07 am

Batteroo out-source the Facebook presence to a PR company

Really? To me it seems more like the 15-year old nephew of one of their friends.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WattSekunde on May 04, 2016, 10:55:30 am

Just for fun. I googled a chip and try it with the first one that popped out.  :-/O Maybe it's not the ideal chip with 1.8V V_out_min. I'm not so much into this market. But it couldn't so much different, I think.
=> TPS61220 http://www.ti.com/product/TPS61220#features (http://www.ti.com/product/TPS61220#features)

Has anyone a better 6-pin boost converter for this kind application? They seem all to be optimized for 0.7V .. 1.5V (Alkaline Cell) input and around 3.3V output.
=> Found one: LTC3526 http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/3526lfc.pdf (http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/3526lfc.pdf)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=222151;image)

>:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on May 04, 2016, 12:23:06 pm

Quote from: Fungus on May 04, 2016, 10:31:30 am

Quote from: rich on May 04, 2016, 12:20:07 am

Batteroo out-source the Facebook presence to a PR company

Really? To me it seems more like the 15-year old nephew of one of their friends.

Yes really. Maybe the PR co determined that the best image Batteroo brand can hope for is a 15 yo nephew and a team of talented, professional, writers have been crafting that persona all along, or they hired a 15 yo. None of these things need be mutually exclusive.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on May 04, 2016, 03:09:44 pm

Quote from: WattSekunde on May 04, 2016, 10:55:30 am

Has anyone a better 6-pin boost converter for this kind application?

Try Analog Devices ADP1607... as discussed at length earlier in this thread.

It won't give you any extra battery life though. The actual chip doesn't matter if the basic premise is wrong.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WattSekunde on May 04, 2016, 03:33:03 pm

Quote from: Fungus on May 04, 2016, 03:09:44 pm

Quote from: WattSekunde on May 04, 2016, 10:55:30 am

Has anyone a better 6-pin boost converter for this kind application?

Try Analog Devices ADP1607... as discussed at length earlier in this thread.

It won't give you any extra battery life though. The actual chip doesn't matter if the basic premise is wrong.

Thanks. Yes, you are right. I think the batteriser is (in this forum) 100% demystified. :-DMM But I never played around with step-up/down converters in general. Now I get interested in. Especially in low energy harvesting and ultra-low power ICs. (Of course not for another batteriser scam.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on May 04, 2016, 05:46:53 pm

The basic premise is right and it does work (after all, that's what these ICs were designed for), but the harvested remaining battery energy will be minimal, except for a handful of old devices with high cut-off voltages.
The sleeves present problems of their own, like defeating the usefulness of battery life indicators and physical dimensions that can make it hard to fit in existing tight battery compartments.
The current output they're looking for (~1A) is ridiculously high for something that has to fit on the tip of a AA/AAA battery. I don't think they'll ever get that right.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on May 04, 2016, 05:52:32 pm

Quote from: WattSekunde on May 04, 2016, 03:33:03 pm

I think the batteriser is (in this forum) 100% demystified.

Let me fix that for you...

I think the batteriser is (in this forum) 800% demystified  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WattSekunde on May 04, 2016, 06:18:43 pm

Quote from: WN1X on May 04, 2016, 05:52:32 pm

Quote from: WattSekunde on May 04, 2016, 03:33:03 pm

I think the batteriser is (in this forum) 100% demystified.

Let me fix that for you...

I think the batteriser is (in this forum) 800% demystified  :-DD

  :clap:

Quote from: Wytnucls on May 04, 2016, 05:46:53 pm

The basic premise is right and it does work, but the harvested remaining battery energy will be minimal, except for a handful of old devices with high cut-off voltages.
The sleeves present problems of their own, like defeating the usefulness of battery life indicators and physical dimensions that can make it hard to fit in existing tight battery compartments.
The current output they're looking for (~1A) is ridiculously high for something that has to fit on the tip of a AA/AAA battery. I don't think they'll ever get that right.

Totally agree. If you look in the data sheets and try to match it to the batteriser fantasy conditions (voltages, size, ...) the step-up converter efficiency gets so worse. I guess under 70% with less than 100mA max.

The pictures of the "production run" look like early prototypes to me. For example why did they glue or solder the PCB to the frame before the chip was soldered? Why solder the thing with only two caps? If they ever deliver one of these things I'm sure they grind the chip marking away. I wonder and don't know if they try to get most out of indiegogo or sell the crap on every supermarket around the globe? I am not sure. :popcorn:.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on May 04, 2016, 06:27:12 pm

Quote from: WattSekunde on May 04, 2016, 06:18:43 pm

If they ever deliver one of these things I'm sure they grind the chip marking away.

No need.

It's fairly safe to say they're using either their own chip or a tweaked version of a commercial chip.

Either way: Putting a picture of Probes the Monkey on it won't be a problem. Chip makers will happily put your logo on a chip if you order enough of them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on May 04, 2016, 07:05:30 pm

Anyone want hazard a bet that if the IC is truly custom that is in the form of chip on board rather than an IC?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on May 04, 2016, 07:24:26 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on May 04, 2016, 07:05:30 pm

Anyone want hazard a bet that if the IC is truly custom that is in the form of chip on board rather than an IC?

Anyone want hazard a bet that they aint got either...
They cannot show us pictures of production in China because there simply is no device to produce.
Their level of communication is a clear indicator.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on May 04, 2016, 07:42:14 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on May 04, 2016, 05:46:53 pm

The basic premise is right and it does work (after all, that's what these ICs were designed for), but the harvested remaining battery energy will be minimal, except for a handful of old devices with high cut-off voltages.

That is not their basic premise though, is it?  Their basic premise is that battery operated products only use 20% of energy contained in a cell.  That was almost immediately shown to be bollocks.  Everything else follows from there on in...

Boost converters do of course "work", ie produce a higher output voltage, but that's not a "premise" for a commercial product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on May 04, 2016, 08:21:40 pm

Quote from: Mr.B on May 04, 2016, 07:24:26 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on May 04, 2016, 07:05:30 pm

Anyone want hazard a bet that if the IC is truly custom that is in the form of chip on board rather than an IC?

Anyone want hazard a bet that they aint got either...
They cannot show us pictures of production in China because there simply is no device to produce.
Their level of communication is a clear indicator.

True. The absence of even one selfie in Shenzen is conspicuous.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on May 04, 2016, 09:46:25 pm

Quote from: Delta on May 04, 2016, 07:42:14 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on May 04, 2016, 05:46:53 pm

The basic premise is right and it does work (after all, that's what these ICs were designed for), but the harvested remaining battery energy will be minimal, except for a handful of old devices with high cut-off voltages.

That is not their basic premise though, is it?  Their basic premise is that battery operated products only use 20% of energy contained in a cell.  That was almost immediately shown to be bollocks.  Everything else follows from there on in...

Boost converters do of course "work", ie produce a higher output voltage, but that's not a "premise" for a commercial product.

'It won't give you any extra battery life though. The actual chip doesn't matter if the basic premise is wrong.'
That's not what Fungus was alluding to. We know that the '80% and up to 8x' is marketing hype.

This is the premise and the basis of their patent application:
Significant number of batteries thrown away still has a lot of energy left in them. Using proprietary circuitry to maintain an optimal output voltage, Batteriser allows the end device to access the untapped energy in the battery and makes it last longer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on May 04, 2016, 11:25:57 pm

Quote from: Delta on May 04, 2016, 07:42:14 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on May 04, 2016, 05:46:53 pm

The basic premise is right and it does work (after all, that's what these ICs were designed for), but the harvested remaining battery energy will be minimal, except for a handful of old devices with high cut-off voltages.

That is not their basic premise though, is it?  Their basic premise is that battery operated products only use 20% of energy contained in a cell.  That was almost immediately shown to be bollocks.  Everything else follows from there on in...
Boost converters do of course "work", ie produce a higher output voltage, but that's not a "premise" for a commercial product.

Correct. The only carrot and stick Bateroo have is their supposed "fact" that products typically only use 20% of a batteries capacity. Their last "technical" video goes to great lengths to try and explain how this is the case (and they fail of course). Because if they don't show that "fact" to be true then they haven't got a viable commercial product that can be marketed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on May 05, 2016, 07:05:40 am

Quote from: EEVblog on May 04, 2016, 11:25:57 pm

Correct. The only carrot and stick Bateroo have is their supposed "fact" that products typically only use 20% of a batteries capacity.

They based their number on a study that shows that some people only use 20% of a battery's capacity.

eg. There are people that put a fresh set of batteries in their camera when they go away for the weekend no matter if the old batteries are still good or not. There's security people that put new batteries in their radios at the start of every shift and throw the old ones away, etc.

Of course Batteriser can't fix the 'people' problem and it turns out that most devices use 90+% of the energy in batteries (if you leave the batteries inside them until they run out).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on May 05, 2016, 11:00:11 am

Quote from: Fungus on May 05, 2016, 07:05:40 am

Quote from: EEVblog on May 04, 2016, 11:25:57 pm

Correct. The only carrot and stick Bateroo have is their supposed "fact" that products typically only use 20% of a batteries capacity.

They based their number on a study that shows that some people only use 20% of a battery's capacity.

And they only did that after that study was pointed out on this forum, which we of course know they read.
And they didn't even interpret the data correctly  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on May 05, 2016, 11:03:38 am

More refunds
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=222371;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=222369;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on May 05, 2016, 12:34:50 pm

Are these people really getting refunds ?? How do we know that they're not just a setup to quieten the masses ??
IF we assume that they painted themselves into a corner, and were caught out, why bother giving a few refunds ?? Did IGG put pressure on them ??
Surely there'd have to be 100's and 100's wanting refunds ?? Soooo many questions.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on May 05, 2016, 07:16:44 pm

At this point, the smartest thing Batteroo can do is issue refunds. Refunds are always cheaper than manufacturing at a loss.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: station240 on May 06, 2016, 11:24:28 am

Quote from: Fungus on May 05, 2016, 07:05:40 am

Quote from: EEVblog on May 04, 2016, 11:25:57 pm

Correct. The only carrot and stick Bateroo have is their supposed "fact" that products typically only use 20% of a batteries capacity.

They based their number on a study that shows that some people only use 20% of a battery's capacity.

It's more like:
"..a scam that shows that some people only use 20% of their brain capacity."

If people are throwing away disposable batteries with only 20% discharge, and buy enough of said batteries to justify buying a Batteriser, then they are morons.
For the same cost, they could buy some high capacity rechargeable batteries and a charger.
If the high capacity rechargeable cells only last 100 cycles, that's over 3 months.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on May 06, 2016, 11:44:00 am

Quote from: station240 on May 06, 2016, 11:24:28 am

If people are throwing away disposable batteries with only 20% discharge, and buy enough of said batteries to justify buying a Batteriser, then they are morons.
For the same cost, they could buy some high capacity rechargeable batteries and a charger.
If the high capacity rechargeable cells only last 100 cycles, that's over 3 months.

Think about it a bit, how can the average user tell how much capacity is remaining in an alkaline cell with reasonable accuracy?  If they need to depend on something working correctly for a period of time, then they put fresh cells in.  This is hardly unreasonable.

Low self discharge NiMH are a good alternative for many applications, provided you remember to charge them, and that your device is ok with the lower voltage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on May 06, 2016, 02:45:54 pm

Quote from: mikerj on May 06, 2016, 11:44:00 am

Think about it a bit, how can the average user tell how much capacity is remaining in an alkaline cell with reasonable accuracy?

... and with the Batteriser, they will have even less of an idea - and an instantaneous death.

Quote

If they need to depend on something working correctly for a period of time, then they put fresh cells in.  This is hardly unreasonable.

Will Batteriser change this behaviour?  I don't think so.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on May 06, 2016, 10:29:19 pm

Quote from: mikerj on Yesterday at 09:44:00 PM (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=48950.msg934735#msg934735)

...Low self discharge NiMH are a good alternative for many applications, provided you remember to charge them, and that your device is ok with the lower voltage.

That "NiMH cells have lower voltage than Alkaline cells" thing is a bit of a common misconception. The STARTING open circuit voltage of a fresh Alkaline is higher, but depending on current draw, throughout much of the discharge curve the NiMH maintains a higher voltage than the Alkaline. Very few, if any, modern devices designed for Alkaline AA cells have any issues running on LSD NiMH AA cells. Sometimes if the device has a battery status readout it will show 3/4 capacity as soon as you put the NiMH cells in, and will remain at 3/4 capacity showing for a long time, but that's about the only negative effect of running the NiMH cells.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6iRmpITeTY8/VZ-5ar05nJI/AAAAAAAAE_U/35sBDAHtQwo/s1600/1.5_vs_1.2_Volt_Batteries.JPG)



(http://www.stefanv.com/electronics/using_nimh/nimh_vs_alkaline.gif)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on May 06, 2016, 10:36:53 pm

Quote from: samgab on May 06, 2016, 10:29:19 pm

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6iRmpITeTY8/VZ-5ar05nJI/AAAAAAAAE_U/35sBDAHtQwo/s1600/1.5_vs_1.2_Volt_Batteries.JPG)

(http://www.stefanv.com/electronics/using_nimh/nimh_vs_alkaline.gif)

You forgot to mention the area above the curves that the Batteriser can tap into.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on May 06, 2016, 11:17:14 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on May 04, 2016, 08:21:40 pm

True. The absence of even one selfie in Shenzen is conspicuous.

Selfies have been strictly forbidden in Shenzen :)

Quote from: EEVblog on May 04, 2016, 11:25:57 pm

Correct. The only carrot and stick Bateroo have is their supposed "fact" that products typically only use 20% of a batteries capacity.

It's not carrot and stick. It's monkey and probe : )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on May 07, 2016, 08:49:23 am

Quote from: ez24 on May 06, 2016, 10:36:53 pm

You forgot to mention the area above the curves that the Batteriser can tap into.

LOLZ  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on May 07, 2016, 05:16:32 pm

Guess what I got in my inbox. An update from Batteriser! It is not posted at the Indiegogo site (yet), so I thought I'd share it with you ;-)

Dear Supporters,
 
First of all, we would like to thank you for being patient with us as we have been trying to get our products shipped to our customers. To that end, we would like to share some important information with you.  Energizer has initiated a lawsuit against our company arguing that the name Batteriser is similar to Energizer.  In their opinion, we are taking advantage of Energizer’s reputation.   Batteriser is a unique name we chose to emphasize the rise in the voltage of a Battery, hence Batte-Riser. The name Energizer does not contain the words battery or riser, and is derived from just one verb: Energize. The only similarity is the "ER" suffix in both names and that to them seems to imply we are taking advantage of their reputation.
 

Although our legal team believes that Energizer’s does not have a case they can win, there are other realities we must consider. We are a small startup with limited resources, and Energizer is a huge corporation. We do not want to waste our resources on a lengthy legal battle, so we have decided to change the Batteriser product name.  To be clear, this litigation from Energizer is only related to the naming of Batteriser and has nothing to do with our technology and IP portfolio.
 

We are working to expedite the negotiation process with Energizer so that we may continue with the more important work of shipping our orders to all of our customers. At this point, we already have the Batteriser name and logo design on all of our packaging, cases, wrappers, and brochures as well as the Batteriser product itself. As a result, we will now have to redesign and retool all of these items with our new product name and logo.  We are working on minimizing the effect this change has on our shipping schedule.  As mentioned in our last communication, our CEO Bob Roohparvar is currently in East Asia working to resolve these issues as quickly as possible.
 

Recently, we were also notified that many customers had problems accessing certain features on our website. Upon further investigation, we realized that our website had been hacked. Someone had entered a few lines of code that blocked our customers from seeing the videos and Q&A section of our site, as well as blocking them from placing orders. That issue is now resolved, but It is very obvious to us that we are under attack. Given that we plan to disrupt the $15 billion/year battery industry and drastically reduce the number of batteries in landfills, we are not surprised.  We are grateful that we are not fighting this fight alone, and that these delays have not deterred our supporters. To be clear, we are not saying or implying that Energizer had anything to do with the hacking of our website; but merely that we are being attacked on many fronts.
 

We will be announcing the new product name, unveiling our new logo and supplying further details in the coming weeks. We want to sincerely apologize for the delays and want to assure you that we are doing everything in our power to get the product to you. We appreciate your continued patience and look forward to delivering our product that will make the planet a better place for our children. Thank you so much for your continued support!
 

Yours truly,

The Batteroo Team

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on May 07, 2016, 05:51:47 pm

Quote from: Marcel_X on May 07, 2016, 05:16:32 pm

Guess what I got in my inbox. An update from Batteriser! It is not posted at the Indiegogo site (yet), so I thought I'd share it with you ;-)

Dear Supporters,
 
First of all, we would like to thank you for being patient with us as we have been trying to get our products shipped to our customers. To that end, we would like to share some important information with you.  Energizer has initiated a lawsuit against our company arguing that the name Batteriser is similar to Energizer.  In their opinion, we are taking advantage of Energizer’s reputation.   Batteriser is a unique name we chose to emphasize the rise in the voltage of a Battery, hence Batte-Riser. The name Energizer does not contain the words battery or riser, and is derived from just one verb: Energize. The only similarity is the "ER" suffix in both names and that to them seems to imply we are taking advantage of their reputation.
 

Although our legal team believes that Energizer’s does not have a case they can win, there are other realities we must consider. We are a small startup with limited resources, and Energizer is a huge corporation. We do not want to waste our resources on a lengthy legal battle, so we have decided to change the Batteriser product name.  To be clear, this litigation from Energizer is only related to the naming of Batteriser and has nothing to do with our technology and IP portfolio.
 

We are working to expedite the negotiation process with Energizer so that we may continue with the more important work of shipping our orders to all of our customers. At this point, we already have the Batteriser name and logo design on all of our packaging, cases, wrappers, and brochures as well as the Batteriser product itself. As a result, we will now have to redesign and retool all of these items with our new product name and logo.  We are working on minimizing the effect this change has on our shipping schedule.  As mentioned in our last communication, our CEO Bob Roohparvar is currently in East Asia working to resolve these issues as quickly as possible.
 

Recently, we were also notified that many customers had problems accessing certain features on our website. Upon further investigation, we realized that our website had been hacked. Someone had entered a few lines of code that blocked our customers from seeing the videos and Q&A section of our site, as well as blocking them from placing orders. That issue is now resolved, but It is very obvious to us that we are under attack. Given that we plan to disrupt the $15 billion/year battery industry and drastically reduce the number of batteries in landfills, we are not surprised.  We are grateful that we are not fighting this fight alone, and that these delays have not deterred our supporters. To be clear, we are not saying or implying that Energizer had anything to do with the hacking of our website; but merely that we are being attacked on many fronts.
 

We will be announcing the new product name, unveiling our new logo and supplying further details in the coming weeks. We want to sincerely apologize for the delays and want to assure you that we are doing everything in our power to get the product to you. We appreciate your continued patience and look forward to delivering our product that will make the planet a better place for our children. Thank you so much for your continued support!
 

Yours truly,

The Batteroo Team

That much retooling is good for another year of delays, at least. Good timing that they finally noticed the energizer thing months after it was filed just when they needed another excuse not to ship.  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on May 07, 2016, 05:56:02 pm

Exactly as predicted here: They've been keeping the "Energizer" joker up their sleeve for when things got rough.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timgiles on May 07, 2016, 06:26:38 pm

So they have not even bothered to check their own website! And these same idiots are who people are trusting with their money.

Still, I backed the CST watch on Kickstarter - so I cant talk. Still, the sooner the product is delivered, reviewed, the sooner we can move on to the next snake oil battery product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on May 07, 2016, 06:43:41 pm

Truly Batteriser is the gift that keeps on giving. Kind of like athletes foot.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on May 07, 2016, 09:27:17 pm

Quote from: SeanB on May 07, 2016, 06:43:41 pm

Truly Batteriser is the gift that keeps on giving. Kind of like athletes foot.

with 800% more herpes

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on May 07, 2016, 10:31:18 pm

Quote from: Marcel_X on May 07, 2016, 05:16:32 pm

Guess what I got in my inbox. An update from Batteriser! It is not posted at the Indiegogo site (yet), so I thought I'd share it with you ;-)

Dear Supporters,
 
blah blah blah

Yours truly,

The Batteroo Team

 :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:

Outstanding.  :clap:

So not one single person on Team Batteryisereroo had browsed their own website and noticed that it wasn't working.  And they had so much good info they were trying earnestly to share with their backers!  If it wasn't for Big Battery and their evil hackers!  Probably Dave hacked them too...

I for one completely believe that they've only just found out about the Energizer trademark stuff, and just before they were due to ship the completed products no less!  I of course expect to see photos of Bobby stood next to the hundreds and thousands of completed Batterisers they were just about to ship.

I was going to say that surely none of their backers will believe this shit, but then again, they all believed the original bullshit in the first place...  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on May 07, 2016, 11:07:53 pm

I believe 800% that they goofed up their own website. why would anyone hack it? they are doing a great job of making themselves look like idiots / victims of stupidity better than anyone else could

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on May 07, 2016, 11:13:39 pm

Quote

Energizer has initiated a lawsuit against our company arguing that the name Batteriser is similar to Energizer.

Tell use the date when that happened and you first knew about it Bob.
You and everyone else knows it was 6 months ago, but nice try trying to make everyone think this just popped up.
Someone here will link to the proof in 3.. 2.. 1..

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GamerAndds on May 07, 2016, 11:24:09 pm

New product names anyone? Lol how about the 'Fakerizer'...


I laugh everytime I hear new info on this and it's beyond my time and effort to even explain the 'no' (with a face palm) in this to other people, if anyone asks me I tell them this.
"Go ahead, waste your money on another scam" end of story.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on May 07, 2016, 11:34:10 pm

Quote from: Fungus on May 07, 2016, 05:56:02 pm

Exactly as predicted here: They've been keeping the "Energizer" joker up their sleeve for when things got rough.

Yep, it was predicted by all and sundry, so that really must have been their last ace up their sleeve.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on May 07, 2016, 11:36:55 pm

little compilation...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on May 07, 2016, 11:42:23 pm

How about a selfie from Shenzhen, Bob?  I'm not sure I even believe you are there at this point.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on May 07, 2016, 11:43:33 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on May 07, 2016, 11:42:23 pm

How about a selfie from Shenzhen, Bob?  I'm not sure I even believe you are there at this point.

isn't he a lecturer at some college / university somewhere? probably easy enough to find a teaching schedule

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on May 08, 2016, 12:04:36 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on May 07, 2016, 11:43:33 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on May 07, 2016, 11:42:23 pm

How about a selfie from Shenzhen, Bob?  I'm not sure I even believe you are there at this point.

isn't he a lecturer at some college / university somewhere? probably easy enough to find a teaching schedule

He's teaching during "winter quarter 2016" (http://www.csueastbay.edu/directory/profiles/cs/roohparvarfarzan.html), is that now?  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on May 08, 2016, 01:51:19 am

Quote from: Delta on May 08, 2016, 12:04:36 am

He's teaching during "winter quarter 2016" (http://www.csueastbay.edu/directory/profiles/cs/roohparvarfarzan.html), is that now?  :-//

Winter Quarter 2016
Jan. 4    Opening of winter quarter; Classes begin
Jan. 18    Martin Luther King, Jr. Day (University closed)
Feb. 19    Last day to submit thesis to Academic Programs and Graduate Studies Office
Mar. 13    Last day of classes
Mar. 14-20    Final examinations
Mar. 20    End of quarter
Mar. 21-Mar. 27    Academic recess



Spring starts Mar 28 

So he could be in China

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on May 08, 2016, 02:39:19 am

Quote from: Marcel_X on May 07, 2016, 05:16:32 pm

Dear Supporters,
 
Blah, blah, blah...
To that end, we would like to share some important information with you.  Energizer has initiated a lawsuit against our company arguing that the name Batteriser is similar to Energizer.
Blah, blah, blah...

This is old news, bordering on ancient ... and you're rolling it out now?

Quote

We do not want to waste our resources on a lengthy legal battle, so we have decided to change the Batteriser product name.
Blah, blah, blah...
We are working on minimizing the effect this change has on our shipping schedule.

Bullshit.  From past example, you mean maximizing, don't you?

Quote

Recently, we were also notified that many customers had problems accessing certain features on our website. Upon further investigation, we realized that our website had been hacked.

Maybe.  I have some alternate possibilities:
 1. We deliberately stuffed it to slow people up, knowing we could blame it on hacking
 2. We accidentally stuffed it up and realized it wasn't a bad thing - and we could blame it on hacking

Quote

Blah, blah, blah...
That issue is now resolved, but It is very obvious to us that we are under attack. Given that we plan to disrupt the $15 billion/year battery industry and drastically reduce the number of batteries in landfills, we are not surprised. 
Blah, blah, blah...
we are not saying or implying that Energizer had anything to do with the hacking of our website; but merely that we are being attacked on many fronts.

Of course - point the finger ... but at no-one in particular, naturally.  We wouldn't want a defamation suit on top of everything else, would we?

Quote

Blah, blah, blah...
... and want to assure you that we are doing everything in our power to get the product to you.

Actions speak louder than words.  With this as background noise, you could hear a sparrow fart a mile away.

Quote

We appreciate your continued patience and look forward to delivering our product that will make the planet a better place for our children.
Blah, blah, blah...

Seriously ... playing the 'future generations' sympathy card - when you haven't proven you have a product, let alone one that performs, let alone one that performs as advertised ... which STILL puts you outside any demonstrable benefit for future generations.

 :palm:


I would love to be proven wrong - but I don't hold out ANY hope of that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on May 08, 2016, 03:29:03 am

And of course this is the perfect get out of jail free card to providing any information at all or photos from China. Hopefully people will forget all about that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on May 08, 2016, 03:40:35 am

Quote from: Marcel_X on May 07, 2016, 05:16:32 pm

Although our legal team believes that Energizer’s does not have a case they can win, there are other realities we must consider.

Our legal team = the relative of that professor in our marketing video, who seems to have zero patent or trademark defence experience.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Svuppe on May 08, 2016, 09:16:32 am

Quote from: Marcel_X on May 07, 2016, 05:16:32 pm

Upon further investigation, we realized that our website had been hacked. Someone had entered a few lines of code that blocked our customers from seeing the videos and Q&A section of our site, as well as blocking them from placing orders. That issue is now resolved, but It is very obvious to us that we are under attack.

Oh please..... What kind of an "attack" would removing the Q&A section be? If they were really under attack, their website would be gone altogether, or at least have the front page replaced with something completely different. Maybe the next excuse is that it was hackers that have added the 800% claim, and they have never said that themselves???

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on May 08, 2016, 09:41:28 am

Quote from: ez24 on May 08, 2016, 01:51:19 am

Mar. 21-Mar. 27    Academic recess


Spring starts Mar 28 

So he could be in China

More likely India, visiting the family. You know, on the way to China, but perhaps the China stop is only at the airport to change from Air India to another carrier.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jc101 on May 08, 2016, 09:44:04 am

Well if they are going to rebrand it, then perhaps they will then try to re-market to those who had doubts over the original Batteriser name and didn't put in those bulk orders.  Unless that change of name e-mail is posted on their website / campaign could they try to spin the new name as being different from Batteriser to any potential new buyer?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MLXXXp on May 08, 2016, 01:30:27 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on May 07, 2016, 11:34:10 pm

Yep, it was predicted by all and sundry, so that really must have been their last ace up their sleeve.

Na, they still have another "ace" after this one. Some months from now, expect to see something like:

"As we have reported previously, we have decided our new product branding will be The Batterooster (derived from Battery, Roohparvar and Booster), with the slogan Wakes up the sleeping unused power in your batteries. The new packaging, cases, wrappers, and brochures are largely in place. Our discussions with Energizer have indicated that they have no objection to the new name.

Unfortunately, we regret to inform you that we have been told that one of our key patent applications is likely to be rejected. Without holding this patent to protect our unique intellectual property, the door is open for other parties to copy and market a nearly identical product without recourse. We feel this is likely to occur and so have determined our company would not be profitable in light of this additional competition. Therefore, regretfully, we have decided to not proceed with the manufacture and delivery of the Batterooster product.

We are now looking into selling some of our IP and assets so that our endeavours will not have completely gone to waste. We hope that any monies gained from these sales can be used to provide you with, at least, partial refunds."   :blah:  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on May 08, 2016, 02:09:47 pm

Quote from: Svuppe on May 08, 2016, 09:16:32 am

Oh please..... What kind of an "attack" would removing the Q&A section be?

Hmm... didn't the old Q&A page contain several embarrassing technical fopar's?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on May 08, 2016, 02:11:33 pm

Quote from: MLXXXp on May 08, 2016, 01:30:27 pm

Na, they still have another "ace" after this one. Some months from now, expect to see something like:

Unfortunately, we regret to inform you that we have been told that one of our key patent applications is likely to be rejected. Without holding this patent to protect our unique intellectual property, the door is open for other parties to copy and market a nearly identical product without recourse. We feel this is likely to occur and so have determined our company would not be profitable in light of this additional competition. Therefore, regretfully, we have decided to not proceed with the manufacture and delivery of the Batterooster product.

Ah yes, the key patent that will no doubt get rejected. Forgot about that one!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on May 08, 2016, 02:22:00 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on May 08, 2016, 02:09:47 pm

Quote from: Svuppe on May 08, 2016, 09:16:32 am

Oh please..... What kind of an "attack" would removing the Q&A section be?

Hmm... didn't the old Q&A page contain several embarrassing technical fopar's?

I think you'll find that's faux pas, but you were accidentally close to the truly correct spelling which would be, of course, a "technical Rooh par".

This could join the classics of actions and activities named after people such as Boycott, Gerrymander or phrases such as "That man is a complete and utter Jeremy" - named after Jeremy Hunt, UK minister for health and well known misspelling.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on May 08, 2016, 02:22:10 pm

Quote

Recently, we were also notified that many customers had problems accessing certain features on our website. Upon further investigation, we realized that our website had been hacked. Someone had entered a few lines of code that blocked our customers from seeing the videos and Q&A section of our site, as well as blocking them from placing orders. That issue is now resolved, but It is very obvious to us that we are under attack. Given that we plan to disrupt the $15 billion/year battery industry and drastically reduce the number of batteries in landfills, we are not surprised.  We are grateful that we are not fighting this fight alone, and that these delays have not deterred our supporters. To be clear, we are not saying or implying that Energizer had anything to do with the hacking of our website; but merely that we are being attacked on many fronts.

When is doubt, milk a story that's worked before and started all this!
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html)

Quote

Bob Roohparvar tells a killer story of industrial espionage. He says the robbery occurred last October at his Batteroo office space in a sprawling Silicon Valley office park. The target was intellectual property surrounding Batteriser, a simple metal sleeve that promises to give consumers up to eight times more life from their disposable batteries, AAA through D.

The crooks clearly knew the building layout, and exactly what they were looking for—namely, a breakthrough technology that, if legit, could blow the lid off an alkaline battery industry that’s worth $3.4 billion annually in the US alone.

“It was a very, very professional job,” says Roohparvar. “They passed by all the offices with open doors, and then banged the hell out of my door, breaking it in. The doorknob was slammed so hard into the wall, it got stuck in the plaster. They took my hard disk and a bunch of USB drives. They took our Batteriser samples. They knew exactly how much time they had before the police would respond.”

Roohparvar, who has a Ph.D. in electrical engineering and a long career in power management

including a VP stint at Broadcom and a CEO stint at FlexPower, says he’s not worried about the theft, because Batteriser has full patent protection. But once the battery manufacturers grasp what Batteriser can do—assuming it works as advertised—they might be worried by this simple gadget, which will cost just $10 for a pack of four when it goes on sale in September.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 6581 on May 08, 2016, 03:19:48 pm

"Unfortunately the new longer product name does not fit very well on the batterooster sleeves and may cause compatibility and/or fitting issues with some devices. Legal costs have drained all the money raised to build the batteroosters, we are thankful for your continuing support and help to raise more money to fight evil battery mafia. Let's save children and whales together!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on May 08, 2016, 04:01:43 pm

 Or, in s few weeks or a month, a new plea. "Our analysis has shown that converting all of our designs to use an alternative name not infringing on Energizer would exceed our available capital. Therefore we are starting a second round of crowdfunding for all our believers to make our (insert new name for product here) dream a reality."

 Maybe I shouldn't give them any ideas.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on May 08, 2016, 05:27:49 pm

Thanks for your patience during the last year, while we reworked everything to use our new name.

Unfortunately, I regret to announce that, due to yet another lawsuit by Big Battery, we will not be able to ship under the Battacell name. Though we believe their claim to be baseless, we have already begin rework in hopes of shipping next year, and hope for your understanding and patience. Rest assured, you will receive your Battovacs.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on May 08, 2016, 07:50:32 pm

Anyone see Phineas and Ferb? Bob reminds me of Doofenshmirtz and his gadgets that always backfire, so it should be called the "Batterylifeextenderinator"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on May 09, 2016, 12:36:41 am

Quote from: 6581 on May 08, 2016, 03:19:48 pm

"Unfortunately the new longer product name does not fit very well on the batterooster sleeves and may cause compatibility and/or fitting issues with some devices. Legal costs have drained all the money raised to build the batteroosters, we are thankful for your continuing support and help to raise more money to fight evil battery mafia. Let's save children and whales together!"

No, there was nothing wrong with the size of the Batterooster text, but the subsequent barriers to entry put up by shiny-arsed pen-pusher bureaucrats insisting on CE, UL, FCC and WEEE symbols and certifications. So many logos, not even enough room on the D cell Batterooster could comply!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on May 09, 2016, 02:21:12 am

Quote from: rrinker on May 08, 2016, 04:01:43 pm

Or, in s few weeks or a month, a new plea. "Our analysis has shown that converting all of our designs to use an alternative name not infringing on Energizer would exceed our available capital. Therefore we are starting a second round of crowdfunding for all our believers to make our (insert new name for product here) dream a reality."
 Maybe I shouldn't give them any ideas.....

Too late, they follow this forum closely. Probably already working on the new campaign...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on May 09, 2016, 04:13:52 am

Quote from: EEVblog on May 09, 2016, 02:21:12 am

Too late, they follow this forum closely. Probably already working on the new campaign...

They are probably waiting for us to come up with a fully working design as we try and reverse engineer the idea. WattSekunde's effort (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg933313/#msg933313 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg933313/#msg933313)) was pretty good, but I think it can only do a few hundred milliamps. It is all our fault.

Have to admit, I was thinking "there is no way a tiny SMD inductor can handle the current". I did some calculations and I was surprised to find that 0.8mm and 0.9mm high inductors are available that can handle up to 4A at the minimum practical inductance of about 200nH. With a 0.1mm thick metal core circuit board, it could work...sort of.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Biff383 on May 09, 2016, 05:06:04 am

  Hmmm a new name, maybe Batteroops?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on May 09, 2016, 05:18:51 am

How about Vaporiser short for Vapourware Batteriser? Can come in different scents, such as the Male Cow Byproduct scent.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on May 09, 2016, 05:26:18 am

Quote from: amspire on May 09, 2016, 05:18:51 am

How about Vaporiser short for Vapourware Batteriser? Can come in different scents, such as the Male Cow Byproduct scent.

The "iser" part of that will have the same trademark hassle as they currently face.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on May 09, 2016, 12:11:01 pm

Quote from: amspire on May 09, 2016, 05:18:51 am

How about Vaporiser short for Vapourware Batteriser? Can come in different scents, such as the Male Cow Byproduct scent.

Sounds awfully close to this product...
(http://s.productreview.com.au/products/images/vicksvaporizer-box-unit_4e716028b96d3.jpg)

Don't want Procter & Gamble coming after you!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on May 09, 2016, 12:15:51 pm

Just in from a dutch news website: Paypal stops the 180 days buyer protection for Indiegogo and other crowdfunding sites after 25th of June.
This is due to the growing number of crowdfunding campaigns that fail to deliver (currently 9%). Personally I think it is the Batteriser campaign that has them worried  :D
 
https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/upcoming-policies-full (https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/upcoming-policies-full)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on May 09, 2016, 12:47:53 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on May 09, 2016, 12:15:51 pm

Just in from a dutch news website: Paypal stops the 180 days buyer protection for Indiegogo and other crowdfunding sites after 25th of June.
This is due to the growing number of crowdfunding campaigns that fail to deliver (currently 9%). Personally I think it is the Batteriser campaign that has them worried  :D
 
https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/upcoming-policies-full (https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/upcoming-policies-full)

Sensible move on Paypals part....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on May 09, 2016, 05:00:52 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on May 09, 2016, 12:15:51 pm

Just in from a dutch news website: Paypal stops the 180 days buyer protection for Indiegogo and other crowdfunding sites after 25th of June.
This is due to the growing number of crowdfunding campaigns that fail to deliver (currently 9%). Personally I think it is the Batteriser campaign that has them worried  :D
 
https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/upcoming-policies-full (https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/upcoming-policies-full)

Interesting, they stop the purchase protection for crowdfunding, government and gambling payments. Right, all the same, you don't get anything back from all of them :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on May 09, 2016, 06:11:32 pm

So that is a hell of a good news to crowdfunding scammers, isn't it? No worries now about "contributions" been pulled by Paypal.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on May 09, 2016, 06:17:26 pm

Quote from: Bud on May 09, 2016, 06:11:32 pm

So that is a hell of a good news to crowdfunding scammers, isn't it? No worries now about "contributions" been pulled by Paypal.

I don't think that was ever a real danger to them. This is just Paypal trying to save themselves some work.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on May 09, 2016, 08:43:02 pm

Just in from a dutch news website: Paypal stops the 180 days buyer protection for Indiegogo and other crowdfunding sites after 25th of June.

Hurry up !   You only have until  June 25 to buy your Batteriser using PayPal.
Just think how famous you will be if you get one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on May 09, 2016, 09:09:07 pm

Quote from: StuUK on May 09, 2016, 12:47:53 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on May 09, 2016, 12:15:51 pm

Just in from a dutch news website: Paypal stops the 180 days buyer protection for Indiegogo and other crowdfunding sites after 25th of June.
This is due to the growing number of crowdfunding campaigns that fail to deliver (currently 9%). Personally I think it is the Batteriser campaign that has them worried  :D
 
https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/upcoming-policies-full (https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/upcoming-policies-full)

Sensible move on Paypals part....

Indeed, but I find it strange that Paypal didn't just withdraw their services to the crowdfunding outfits based on excessive unrecoverable refunds. After all, I am sure if I had the level of chargebacks the crowdfunders seem to suffer, Paypal would have no qualms in telling me where to go, that is their standard MO after all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on May 10, 2016, 08:48:37 am

Quote from: Howardlong on May 09, 2016, 09:09:07 pm

Quote from: StuUK on May 09, 2016, 12:47:53 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on May 09, 2016, 12:15:51 pm

Just in from a dutch news website: Paypal stops the 180 days buyer protection for Indiegogo and other crowdfunding sites after 25th of June.
This is due to the growing number of crowdfunding campaigns that fail to deliver (currently 9%). Personally I think it is the Batteriser campaign that has them worried  :D
 
https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/upcoming-policies-full (https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/upcoming-policies-full)

Sensible move on Paypals part....

Indeed, but I find it strange that Paypal didn't just withdraw their services to the crowdfunding outfits based on excessive unrecoverable refunds. After all, I am sure if I had the level of chargebacks the crowdfunders seem to suffer, Paypal would have no qualms in telling me where to go, that is their standard MO after all.

And loose the 4% they charge on every transaction!?? Unlikely.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on May 16, 2016, 06:09:22 pm

So any Updates?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on May 16, 2016, 06:20:56 pm

Awfully quiet at this moment.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on May 16, 2016, 06:22:00 pm

Quote from: meeder on May 16, 2016, 06:20:56 pm

Awfully quiet at this moment.

Agreed. Maybe they are trying to make their getaway.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on May 17, 2016, 01:25:39 am

Quote from: meeder on May 16, 2016, 06:20:56 pm

Awfully quiet at this moment.

What's with not putting that last update on the actual Updates page in the IGG campaign?
Trying to publicly hide it?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on May 17, 2016, 02:53:14 am

Quote from: EEVblog on May 17, 2016, 01:25:39 am

Trying to publicly hide it?

Most probably...  But, why wouldn't they? 

They seem to always try to evade, deceive, misdirect, dupe and defraud...

Simply the latest :palm: in this sad, sordid, sorry saga...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on May 17, 2016, 04:23:44 am

The answer is simple ... They're hoping that sites like this (and possibly MAINLY this site), will eventually give up and go away.
Once pressure / interest fades, it all goes away ... DOH

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on May 17, 2016, 05:35:35 am

If they had to order the switching regulators in chip-on-board format as a custom order, then the first time they would be able to properly test the Batteriser is when they have ordered the production quantities of the chips. I have not seen any convincing demonstration of AA and AAA Batteriser prototypes outputting any significant current, so those prototypes may have been with a completely different regulator to the production Batteriser. If they went to China to test previously untested boards with the hope they would be production-ready, you know that is going to be a disaster.

• Probably get switching regulators failing as shorts that would short the battery. How are they going to fit a slow blow fuse on the AAA sized batteriser?
• When you have 4 Batterisers all switching near 1.5MHz, you are going to get a whole swag of audio frequency products from mixing of the switching frequencies. Battery powered devices are not designed to cope with noise-generating batteries
• Are there heat issues?
• When one battery runs out, the others are still putting out 1.5V, so you get a reverse voltage across the dead Batteriser. Do they need to add a reverse biased Schottky across the Batteriser output, and could such a diode cope with 2A of continuous current without overheating and shorting?
• How much current can the Batteriser actually output when the Battery voltage is 0.8A? Half an amp? I bet it is not 2A.
• Plus there are all the manufacturing issues and they have to build the things for probably under $1 a Batteriser.
• What plating does the clip have? Plain stainless steel would develop high contact resistance. Nickel without any wiping action can also develop resistance.
  

Any of the above could lead to a difficult or insolvable problem. A total nightmare if you are trying to go immediately into production. If they are getting switching regulator fails, they will be blaming the manufacturer, and the manufacturer will be blaming the Batteriser for not using the regulator properly. Things like this can stop production indefinitely.

A sensible approach would be to make the initial AAA and AA Batterisers with a 50mA to 100mA current limit and that is what they possibly should have offered from the start. There are a few battery-powered devices that work much better with 1.5V batteries then 1.2V batteries, and that is one place that the Batteriser could be perfect.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on May 17, 2016, 06:07:10 am

I don’t think they had any intention of manufacturing anything.

It was all pie in the sky bullshit in the hope to attract someone who would pay a fortune for the company and subsequently own the IP.

1. No proof of prototype has ever been delivered in an acceptable manner – the single “live” demo Mr Roo did could easily have been rigged.
2. Ever changing specifications in an attempt to counter the “proof of bullshit” from sites such as the EEVblog.
3. Bullshit lab setups with things like a brand new scope on a common table with an out of cal probe trace on the screen.
4. No selfies from the manufacturing plant in China.
5. ...the list is almost endless...

As others have said before, the problem is they underestimated the flood of “I call bullshit” from the professional EE crowd, underestimated the fact that their patent application would fail, underestimated the fact that Energiser would take exception to the marketing name… etc, etc, etc…

I stand by the opinion that the product never existed – vapourware…

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on May 17, 2016, 06:32:25 am

Quote from: Mr.B on May 17, 2016, 06:07:10 am

I don’t think they had any intention of manufacturing anything.

I suspect that initially, they had dreams for a company that they could sell to a big manufacturer for a billion dollars. At some point, they have probably realised it is never going to happen. If it is not going to happen, there is no point is wasting money, so the question is when they realised that the Batteriser cannot work as advertised. Was it a scam from the start? I do not know. They said they went to China to sort out production, and then everything has gone silent. It does fit a failed manufacturing gamble without proper protoyping.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on May 17, 2016, 06:45:34 am

Quote from: amspire on May 17, 2016, 06:32:25 am

They said they went to China to sort out production...

Unfortunately there has been no proof of this.
They have said all sorts of things to attempt to keep the 'followers' happy.

It is dead easy for me to announce on social media that I am going to China to oversee the manufacturing of my special "WidgetX".
There are enough idiots on FB that will believe me, and not only that, vehemently defend me even though they have never met me.
Why... Because I have promised on social media that "WidgetX" will save the planet.

I am sure you get what I mean...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on May 17, 2016, 06:50:46 am

Quote from: Mr.B on May 17, 2016, 06:45:34 am

I am sure you get what I mean...

I do. Batteriser have done nothing to prove you wrong.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on May 17, 2016, 08:35:12 am

What strikes me is that in the past all communications have been done by the Bob the CEO himself.

And now while the CEO is supposed to be in China, it is the rest of the team who announce "..blah blah.. lawsuit Energizer.. blah blah.. and now we're gonna drop the name 'Batteriser'.."

If there is one single announcement that should be made by the Boss himself, I think this was it.

But maybe he really is in China, behind a Chinese firewall, and thus unable to write the message himself. An if that is the case, Bob might not know yet about the decision to change the name ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on May 17, 2016, 10:10:54 am

SKTA Innopartners has a new 'blue chip' start-up with 'disruptive technology' on their books.
Meanwhile, the laggard Batteroo still has an office there, yes, the one with the broken door and fluffy toys lying about.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on May 17, 2016, 07:51:18 pm

I wonder if Bob is also behind “CelLink”.
… Flexible Circuits for Power Electronics…

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on May 17, 2016, 09:19:35 pm

Frankie is off to another company. A company which has "disruptive technology for the storage industry"

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160517/e933b6de4700b1898f5547970dd8a938.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on May 17, 2016, 10:11:59 pm

Quote from: meeder on May 17, 2016, 09:19:35 pm

Frankie is off to another company. A company which has "disruptive technology for the storage industry"

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160517/e933b6de4700b1898f5547970dd8a938.jpg)

Gee, Meeder...your battery is at 8%. You need a Batteriser. Oh, wait  |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on May 18, 2016, 01:07:09 am

Serial Entrepreneur: one who flits from one failed boobyhatch to the next.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on May 18, 2016, 02:06:21 am

CELLINK as a name could be a problem...
They make 3D printed medical prosthetics.  Registered since 2002.

Why doesn't this surprise me if it is Boob...
If it is related to the brothers - Maybe they could go with Celleriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on May 18, 2016, 03:52:00 am

Quote from: SL4P on May 18, 2016, 02:06:21 am

CELLINK as a name could be a problem...
They make 3D printed medical prosthetics.  Registered since 2002.

Yeah, confusing name, nothing immediately on google for company details...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on May 18, 2016, 04:17:17 am

Quote from: SL4P on May 18, 2016, 02:06:21 am

CELLINK as a name could be a problem...

Also a cell phone supplier in Aus...
http://www.cellink.com.au/ (http://www.cellink.com.au/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on May 18, 2016, 04:29:16 am

Exitiser? "We take money from idiots then make our exit..."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on May 18, 2016, 04:36:06 am

Quote from: meeder on May 17, 2016, 09:19:35 pm

Frankie is off to another company.

The guy has no shame...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on May 18, 2016, 02:06:01 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on May 17, 2016, 01:25:39 am

Quote from: meeder on May 16, 2016, 06:20:56 pm

Awfully quiet at this moment.

What's with not putting that last update on the actual Updates page in the IGG campaign?
Trying to publicly hide it?

This raises an interesting question with respect to crowdfunding in general and Batteroo in particular.

First, lets remind ourselves that the whole idea of crowdfunding was to invest in something that would find, or had found, it difficult to get investment funding from more traditional sources. The reward was, originally, to see something that you approved of happen rather than dwindle away due to lack of funding. The perks were that, 'perks' and not the actual thing funded. It was an 'investment' without, necessarily, a pay-off for the investor. Many people have lost sight of that and are treating it more as a way of producing, selling, and buying a product.

Secondly, and this is the question that I think is raised, if this is investing then the normal rules of dealing with investors apply. Those rules include telling investors the risks and most importantly, when the risks change. In the world of regulated investment, companies are required to file details of things like pending lawsuits in a way that investors can find, and see that the risks of their investment have changed. For US listed companies this would be a filing with the SEC. Basically, there is a duty to be frank about certain classes of information and possible lawsuits is one of them.

In the case of Batteroo, withholding the information about a possible action from Energizer from the IGG pages, while releasing it elsewhere seems to be doing the opposite to satisfying their implied duty of frankness. Moreover, they have input from traditional funding sources who probably both demand this type of information and also understand the duty to be frank with it and would have/ought to have advised Batteroo the same. If IGG were a regulated market the regulators would be preparing some formal action or prosecution at this point purely over the non-publication of that information.

TL;DR: Failing to be frank about the possible Energizer action with IGG funders flies in the face of conventions on frank honesty with investors and calls Batteroo's probity (further) into question.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on May 18, 2016, 03:45:03 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on May 18, 2016, 01:07:09 am

Serial Entrepreneur: one who flits from one failed boobyhatch to the next.

Indeed, its meaning has changed, it used to be a badge of success, now, well, not so much.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: helius on May 18, 2016, 07:26:43 pm

Quote from: Cerebus on May 18, 2016, 02:06:01 pm

If IGG were a regulated market the regulators would be preparing some formal action or prosecution at this point purely over the non-publication of that information.

The fact that such information is regularly suppressed on IGG suggests that there may be contributory negligence at work.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on May 18, 2016, 10:07:30 pm

Quote from: helius on May 18, 2016, 07:26:43 pm

Quote from: Cerebus on May 18, 2016, 02:06:01 pm

If IGG were a regulated market the regulators would be preparing some formal action or prosecution at this point purely over the non-publication of that information.

The fact that such information is regularly suppressed on IGG suggests that there may be contributory negligence at work.

Indeed. My concern is that the Bobs and the others of his ilk are going to attract mandatory regulation to an investment scheme that, for its original intended purpose and audience, worked well and highly efficiently. It would be terrible if small, cheap, community based investment became impracticable because it attracted a level of red tape more normally associated with a full stock market listing. IGG and their ilk must take some blame in this for not exercising a sensible level of self-regulation.

I was heavily involved in the early days of the Internet in the UK being, among other things, a non-executive director of the London Internet Exchange. Reasonably effective self-regulation by the industry kept the government off our backs for more years than I expected, at least 10 or 15, even with the usual moral panic and outrage that accompanies any significant social change. IGG and others should take note and start cleaning up their act before they hear those chilling words: "Hi, I'm from the Government and I'm here to help you.".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on May 18, 2016, 10:43:10 pm

Worse than government regulation, this type of bad behavior will severely limit available capital for starting and growing business. Folks will just soak more money into municipal bonds with near zero risk.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on May 19, 2016, 01:10:43 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on May 18, 2016, 10:43:10 pm

Worse than government regulation, this type of bad behavior will severely limit available capital for starting and growing business. Folks will just soak more money into municipal bonds with near zero risk.

Have you seen how many US municipalities have become or are on the brink of bankruptcy? Not quite so low risk any more.

As it is, I think that the kind of investors that crowdfunding originally attracted are still there and will still invest in the kind of projects that were the early grist for the crowdfunding mill, as long as the cesspit it's becoming gets flushed out and cleaned up in short order. Sadly, I suspect that will not happen and a good idea will have been trashed for all time, but I hope that I'm wrong.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on May 19, 2016, 02:43:49 am

Quote from: Cerebus on May 19, 2016, 01:10:43 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on May 18, 2016, 10:43:10 pm

Worse than government regulation, this type of bad behavior will severely limit available capital for starting and growing business. Folks will just soak more money into municipal bonds with near zero risk.

Have you seen how many US municipalities have become or are on the brink of bankruptcy? Not quite so low risk any more.

As it is, I think that the kind of investors that crowdfunding originally attracted are still there and will still invest in the kind of projects that were the early grist for the crowdfunding mill, as long as the cesspit it's becoming gets flushed out and cleaned up in short order. Sadly, I suspect that will not happen and a good idea will have been trashed for all time, but I hope that I'm wrong.

Without going too far off topic, a bond fund paying 7% every month is readily available and beats 100% loss of equity 90+% of the time. Of course, tech is still a gold rush and that certainly attract a different type of investor.

Like the housing bubble, and the horizontal gas/oil drilling bubble, I think there is going to be a VC bubble. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on May 24, 2016, 09:33:22 am

Still no official "Batteroo vs Energizer" update on indegogo
No Facebook updates of any kind since 8th May
No Indegogo comment replies since April


Are they just giving up?  hoping all this will go away?  Burying their heads in the sand ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on May 24, 2016, 11:06:38 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on May 24, 2016, 09:33:22 am

Still no official "Batteroo vs Energizer" update on indegogo
No Facebook updates of any kind since 8th May
No Indegogo comment replies since April


Are they just giving up?  hoping all this will go away?  Burying their heads in the sand ?

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160524/2fc43b3f58ec198ceca58b03e761ae4a.jpg)



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on May 25, 2016, 06:28:05 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on May 24, 2016, 09:33:22 am

Still no official "Batteroo vs Energizer" update on indegogo
No Facebook updates of any kind since 8th May
No Indegogo comment replies since April


Are they just giving up?  hoping all this will go away?  Burying their heads in the sand ?

Yes.

With all that has happened, the path of preference would seem to be that they want the whole fiasco fade from consciousness and "go quietly into the night".

With such a small amount involved from individual contributors, it's rather likely people will just write it off

... and they will get their wish.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on May 25, 2016, 10:22:29 am

Short of another kick up the arse from IGG, which seems to have prompted their recent updates, it's looking more likely that we won't get another update. They will just let it die.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on May 25, 2016, 11:03:54 am

Quote from: EEVblog on May 25, 2016, 10:22:29 am

Short of another kick up the arse from IGG, which seems to have prompted their recent updates, it's looking more likely that we won't get another update. They will just let it die.

I wonder if all the media outlets and "tech" websites who gushed over it will have anything to say?  Hopefuly your mate at the SMH will do a little follow-up at least...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on May 25, 2016, 11:58:00 am

Quote from: Delta on May 25, 2016, 11:03:54 am

I wonder if all the media outlets and "tech" websites who gushed over it will have anything to say?  Hopefuly your mate at the SMH will do a little follow-up at least...

Yep.

We need to start bothering people like the CNet editors who gave this a "Product of the Year" award before it was even available.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on May 25, 2016, 04:13:43 pm

I guess many tech websites don't care. All they want is ad views and ad clicks and of course you get this, if you write about an impossible product, because there are many people out there who don't know electronics and physics basics who visit these sites. And probably the writers are minimum wage payed people with minimum knowledge, too, who are happy to copy any press release from companies without verifying.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on May 25, 2016, 04:38:45 pm

Quote from: Fungus on May 25, 2016, 11:58:00 am

Quote from: Delta on May 25, 2016, 11:03:54 am

I wonder if all the media outlets and "tech" websites who gushed over it will have anything to say?  Hopefuly your mate at the SMH will do a little follow-up at least...

Yep.

We need to start bothering people like the CNet editors who gave this a "Product of the Year" award before it was even available.

As an ex-journo I find this interesting and/or disturbing.

Let me set the scene. I used to work on the, arguably better end, of news-stand computer magazines in the UK and we used to take great pains to try and get things right. I've often heard it opined by members of the public that advertising has an effect on editorial content but I can tell you that hard battles were fought with anyone (advertising, publishers, manufacturers who provided review equipment) to stop this happening and I can't think of a single instance where editorial didn't win the day. Note that I can only speak for the UK magazines that I worked on as staff (PC Magazine, pub. Ziff-Davis, PC Pro, pub. Dennis) and sister journals from the same publishers (which in the case of Ziff-Davis includes Ziff-Davis USA which had a very strong, almost religious, culture of editorial independence). That is,  I'm saying I can only strictly speak for the places where I've actually witnessed the battles first hand but I have no doubt that much the same happened at most similar publishers.

We used to take awards very seriously, and all - right down to the 'best in test' in each and every issue -  had strict rules around them. We took them seriously because readers genuinely relied on them and took notice of them¹. The least of these rules was that a product, as awarded, had to be shipping and had to continue being shipped in the reviewed configuration for a certain minimum period. At PC Pro, we named and shamed anyone who broke the rules under the sobriquet 'sharks' - yes, we got quite a lot of letters from lawyers, they didn't change things.

Now I'm very grateful for the online 'press' such as we might call them. Increasingly I find that I'm getting a much broader, much more detailed and much more accurate version of 'The News' from online sources than I do from the so called main stream media (MSM). Often important stories are missing from the MSM that do show up from online sources.

The question for me is, evidenced by the type of actions such as CNet's described above, where are the journalistic ethics that I have seen played out in the past and what can be done to restore them? We had our ethics because we felt it was our job to serve the readers and they were largely self-policed as part of our own journo culture and ethos. Thus they were largely invisible to outsiders except in the quality of the work we produced. The quality of the work produced by CNet and others who have uncritically endorsed Batteroo, Triton et al indicates that there is a fundamental problem with the ethics and ethos of, at least some, online tech news outlets.

¹ There are a number of reasons I know readers took these awards seriously. One is that a little known UK PC manufacturer called Panrix just about tripled their turnover after getting awarded one of the best in test categories in the first ever issue of PC Pro. And this before we'd had a chance to build a reputation with our readers - to be fair we probably carried some readers over as we 'incorporated' a title that was killed the same month as we launched.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on May 25, 2016, 05:32:31 pm

http://sktainnopartners.com/welcome-to-batteroo/ (http://sktainnopartners.com/welcome-to-batteroo/)

It has been 15 months since SK took in Bros. Roohparvar. I wonder how long it will take for SK to unfriend them and write off the investment? 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on May 25, 2016, 07:27:44 pm

Quote from: Cerebus on May 25, 2016, 04:38:45 pm

Quote from: Fungus on May 25, 2016, 11:58:00 am

Quote from: Delta on May 25, 2016, 11:03:54 am

I wonder if all the media outlets and "tech" websites who gushed over it will have anything to say?  Hopefuly your mate at the SMH will do a little follow-up at least...

Yep.

We need to start bothering people like the CNet editors who gave this a "Product of the Year" award before it was even available.

As an ex-journo I find this interesting and/or disturbing.

...

I don't think we should class the staff at CNET et al in the same mould of journalist as you were previously.  As has been mentioned, they are seem to be employed just to churn out quantity, and the most efficient way to do that is good old ctrl+c / ctrl+v from the bumf supplied by the snake-oil peddler...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on May 25, 2016, 10:44:28 pm

Quote from: Delta on May 25, 2016, 07:27:44 pm

I don't think we should class the staff at CNET et al in the same mould of journalist as you were previously.  As has been mentioned, they are seem to be employed just to churn out quantity, and the most efficient way to do that is good old ctrl+c / ctrl+v from the bumf supplied by the snake-oil peddler...

Now, there's a naming opportunity...
Ctrl-C.net

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on May 26, 2016, 12:31:44 am

Quote from: Cerebus on May 25, 2016, 04:38:45 pm

The question for me is, evidenced by the type of actions such as CNet's described above, where are the journalistic ethics that I have seen played out in the past and what can be done to restore them?

Here is where they went  and they will never be restored

https://youtu.be/y2X2JGT0Usc?t=26

At least some good comes from it

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on May 26, 2016, 03:07:53 am

Hi,

Just in case you missed,(and just in case it gets deleted), Marcel posted this comment on the IGG campaign:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=227646;image)

It will be interesting to see if there is a response.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on May 26, 2016, 10:19:08 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on May 25, 2016, 05:32:31 pm

http://sktainnopartners.com/welcome-to-batteroo/ (http://sktainnopartners.com/welcome-to-batteroo/)
It has been 15 months since SK took in Bros. Roohparvar. I wonder how long it will take for SK to unfriend them and write off the investment?

Maybe they already have?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on May 26, 2016, 02:54:28 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on May 26, 2016, 10:19:08 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on May 25, 2016, 05:32:31 pm

http://sktainnopartners.com/welcome-to-batteroo/ (http://sktainnopartners.com/welcome-to-batteroo/)
It has been 15 months since SK took in Bros. Roohparvar. I wonder how long it will take for SK to unfriend them and write off the investment?

Maybe they already have?

Likely, SK just hasn't updated the website as Batteroo is still shown as part of the portfolio.

There could still be some type of quiet effort to sell off the "IP" to some witless investors who can't perform a Google search.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on May 26, 2016, 03:58:59 pm

Hi,

I can't remember or find (with a half-hearted search attempt) the size of SK Telecom's stake in Batteroo. I think I remember that it was up to $1M, but it was not all cash, It was accommodation, legal services etc. I did find a press release indicating that Min Park and two others were added to Batteroo's board of directors:

http://batteriser.com/batteroo-names-three-new-members-to-its-board-of-directors/ (http://batteriser.com/batteroo-names-three-new-members-to-its-board-of-directors/)

So it not really clear how big an investment SK Telecom has in Batteroo.

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on May 31, 2016, 05:10:16 am

Are you telling me that after all this time waiting to get our hands on an actual Batteriser to debunk the science, it will be shut down by a stupid trademark lawsuit by a Big Battery company?  |O  ... This will just add to all the conspiracy theories....

Come on Batteroo.... Just get out a metal-stamp cutter and chop out some more of the sleeve to obfuscate the lettering. I'm sure you can turn "BATTERISER" into some gibberish if you stamp out a few more holes and lines around the letters.... Make you "S" into an "8, or your "I" into a "T".... You could be the BATTERT8ER (sounds like "Battertater") that is nothing like "Energizer".

Batteroo... if you're listening.... Just stamp out the letters on the sleeves and send them even without any labelled packages to all your backers. The world needs to evaluate their performance, and not just feed the conspiracy that some large corporation has yet again crushed a revolutionary invention because they were afraid of the competition and the loss of revenue from people buying batteries.  :wtf:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on May 31, 2016, 05:45:27 am

Quote from: edy on May 31, 2016, 05:10:16 am

Batteroo... if you're listening....

I am sure they are - and getting a good laugh while they spend the sponsor's money.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timgiles on May 31, 2016, 07:25:29 am

Those DVDs (Bee Bright - On The Farm) are fantastic. The muck spreading one is my sons favorite. But, all of them are excellent. One of those purchases you get for your children and end up learning so much.

Quote from: ez24 on May 26, 2016, 12:31:44 am

Quote from: Cerebus on May 25, 2016, 04:38:45 pm

The question for me is, evidenced by the type of actions such as CNet's described above, where are the journalistic ethics that I have seen played out in the past and what can be done to restore them?

Here is where they went  and they will never be restored

https://youtu.be/y2X2JGT0Usc?t=26

At least some good comes from it

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on May 31, 2016, 08:04:15 am

Quote from: edy on May 31, 2016, 05:10:16 am

Are you telling me that after all this time waiting to get our hands on an actual Batteriser to debunk the science, it will be shut down by a stupid trademark lawsuit by a Big Battery company?  |O

My bet is that they opened the special bottle and clinked glasses when that letter arrived in their office.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on May 31, 2016, 08:16:38 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on May 26, 2016, 03:58:59 pm

So it not really clear how big an investment SK Telecom has in Batteroo.

I hope for them it was limited to funding a new office door and patching the wall (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html), so they could use that office again for something sensible  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on June 01, 2016, 03:05:58 am

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on May 31, 2016, 08:16:38 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on May 26, 2016, 03:58:59 pm

So it not really clear how big an investment SK Telecom has in Batteroo.

I hope for them it was limited to funding a new office door and patching the wall (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html), so they could use that office again for something sensible  :-DD

Just buy him a tub of this...

(http://www.selleys.com.au/assets/64/spakfilla-rapid-new-180g_large.jpg)

800% better!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on June 01, 2016, 03:13:38 am

Quote from: Halcyon on June 01, 2016, 03:05:58 am

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on May 31, 2016, 08:16:38 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on May 26, 2016, 03:58:59 pm

So it not really clear how big an investment SK Telecom has in Batteroo.

I hope for them it was limited to funding a new office door and patching the wall (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html), so they could use that office again for something sensible  :-DD

Just buy him a tub of this...

(http://www.selleys.com.au/assets/64/spakfilla-rapid-new-180g_large.jpg)

800% better!

Does it dry 800% faster?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 01, 2016, 03:45:52 am

Quote from: edy on May 31, 2016, 05:10:16 am

Batteroo... if you're listening.... Just stamp out the letters on the sleeves and send them even without any labelled packages to all your backers. The world needs to evaluate their performance, and not just feed the conspiracy that some large corporation has yet again crushed a revolutionary invention because they were afraid of the competition and the loss of revenue from people buying batteries.  :wtf:

Heck, just release one into the wild so it can be measured. Where are those media units promised?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on June 01, 2016, 03:50:58 am

... or even a final pre-production prototype ... ANYTHING!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 01, 2016, 04:08:03 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on May 26, 2016, 03:58:59 pm

I can't remember or find (with a half-hearted search attempt) the size of SK Telecom's stake in Batteroo.

"Shorter Time To Money horizons"  :-DD
Not Time To Market, Time To Money

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on June 01, 2016, 12:01:55 pm

Quote from: Brumby on June 01, 2016, 03:50:58 am

... or even a final pre-production prototype ... ANYTHING!

 If only such an animal actually existed.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ontaelio on June 05, 2016, 07:16:13 pm

Quote from: Cerebus on May 25, 2016, 04:38:45 pm

As an ex-journo I find this interesting and/or disturbing.

[...]

The question for me is, evidenced by the type of actions such as CNet's described above, where are the journalistic ethics that I have seen played out in the past and what can be done to restore them? We had our ethics because we felt it was our job to serve the readers and they were largely self-policed as part of our own journo culture and ethos. Thus they were largely invisible to outsiders except in the quality of the work we produced. The quality of the work produced by CNet and others who have uncritically endorsed Batteroo, Triton et al indicates that there is a fundamental problem with the ethics and ethos of, at least some, online tech news outlets.

Hello there. I actually registered here to answer this.

Me, I'm a journalist, too. I have run some IT magazines here in Russia, most of them pretty local, but you may know the likes of Official Playstation and Official Windows/PC Plus Magazines Russian Edition (licensed from the British Future plc). I was an editor-in-chief and I did have to deal with advertising department a lot. You are perfectly right: yes, in those times we did manage to find an acceptable solution with the advertising people all the time. Because they were able to understand that we can not sale our reputation.

The reason for the printed media is pretty simple: you publish bullshit, everyone will remember and will shove it in your face later. I'm an editor-in-chief, I'm responsible for this. That is why in my magazines at least two people read every article before it was published - an editor and a proof-reafer. Even if it was written by me. I can make mistakes, no one is mistake proof.

Nowadays in all this online media - fact-checking? Proof-reading? You kidding? We must publish it NOW! We can always edit or delete it later. That's why people who can write a wall of text in an hour are in demand now. Sure, the text will be a total crap, but who cares? No one can afford normal journalists that need at least a week for a good article.

Same in advertising. Really, I didn't have to spend a lot of time explaining to my advertising people that we can not afford to take these money from this advertiser because we will lose our reputation as a result - and much more future money with it. They really understood it. Now? Who cares? We'll just delete it!

My conclusion: I'm sure that printed media will have it's renaissance once everyone is fed up with this online crap. I do like Dave and his blog, I actually watch all the videos and read a lot here, but for every Dave there's a thousand of crap artists just monetyzing their bullshit. Batterizer praise included. I'm sure this will end sooner or later. For now we have to have patience.

Sorry for my bad English and an off-topic, but I had to write it here : )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on June 05, 2016, 08:34:32 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on June 05, 2015, 03:02:54 am

Dave introduces his Product Baloney Detection Kit, and offers a step-by-step how-to tutorial guide to debunking wild marketing claims on tech products.
In this case the Batteriser, a boost converter that fits around ordinary AA batteries which claims to increase the battery life by up to 800%.
Does it live up to the hype?
http://www.batteriser.com/ (http://www.batteriser.com/)
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html)

Another dunking here on the Neurologica blog:
http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/batteriser-cool-tech-or-scam/ (http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/batteriser-cool-tech-or-scam/)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iEshd6izgk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iEshd6izgk)

ONE YEAR NOW  now for year 2 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on June 07, 2016, 04:34:46 pm

Quote from: Ontaelio on June 05, 2016, 07:16:13 pm

My conclusion: I'm sure that printed media will have it's renaissance once everyone is fed up with this online crap.

Thanks for the well thought out words on the subject.  And your English is just fine!

Do you think that the medium will actually shift back to physical print, or maybe the medium will still be online, but a filtering will take place whereby people will actively seek out reputable reviews/articles and learn to spot click-bait a mile away?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timofonic on June 07, 2016, 06:54:10 pm

Can somebody do a funny EEvBlog magazine mockup? In the 80s style, please. Adding Sagan in "Teach EE to your children to without Arduino" would be a big plus!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on June 13, 2016, 05:39:24 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on June 01, 2016, 04:08:03 am

"Shorter Time To Money horizons"  :-DD
Not Time To Market, Time To Money

In the case of Batteroooooo, it's "Time to Monkey"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on June 13, 2016, 05:41:48 pm

Did they officially quit yet? It's getting a but boring here ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on June 13, 2016, 08:01:29 pm

There are still there and we still can preorder some :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on June 13, 2016, 10:20:02 pm

Quote from: Godzil on June 13, 2016, 08:01:29 pm

There are still there and we still can preorder some :)

Is the shipping time still 30 days?  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on June 13, 2016, 10:22:17 pm

Quote from: Delta on June 13, 2016, 10:20:02 pm

Quote from: Godzil on June 13, 2016, 08:01:29 pm

There are still there and we still can preorder some :)

Is the shipping time still 30 days?  :-DD

Nope!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on June 13, 2016, 10:54:18 pm

How many other people cringe every time they see the phrase "It will ship in 30 days". 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on June 13, 2016, 11:20:23 pm

Quote from: Godzil on June 13, 2016, 08:01:29 pm

There are still there and we still can preorder some :)

I think someone last year reported that the purchase will not go through.  I am not willing to try it until 30 days are up. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on June 14, 2016, 12:44:03 am

I can't help but think of the people who are unaware of the (long and sad) story of what is (not) happening - and come across the website, think it's a wonderful idea and try to throw some money at it.

Quote from: meeder on June 13, 2016, 05:41:48 pm

Did they officially quit yet? It's getting a but boring here ;)

That's what they will want to see happen across the board, so that the whole schmozzle will simply fade away into the night - and without some affirmative action by the other parties involved, that is more than likely exactly what will happen.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on June 14, 2016, 10:51:13 am

Since it all went quiet on the book of face and IGG the marketing droids have been showing re-runs of old image on instagram: https://www.instagram.com/batteriser.official/ (https://www.instagram.com/batteriser.official/)

I just had a look at Facebook to see if what I just said was still true, and found this little gem from June 9th.

Quote from: Batteriser, June 9 at 8:11pm

We receive word from our factory tomorrow with all the information we need to announce the shipping dates. Expect an Indiegogo update soon!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 14, 2016, 10:57:26 am

 :=\

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on June 14, 2016, 11:26:56 am

I think that word from their factory was sent by snail mail, expected delivery two weeks if the postage was ok that is.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on June 14, 2016, 02:29:21 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on June 14, 2016, 11:26:56 am

I think that word from their factory was sent by snail mail, expected delivery two weeks if the postage was ok that is.

Maybe they had it hand delivered? The man took a boat and hand delivered it to the Batteroo office.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 14, 2016, 07:16:32 pm

Is Bob still in China?

It's weird that he hasn't made any announcements about arriving home. He's usually so talkative.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on June 14, 2016, 07:54:25 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on June 14, 2016, 02:29:21 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on June 14, 2016, 11:26:56 am

I think that word from their factory was sent by snail mail, expected delivery two weeks if the postage was ok that is.

Maybe they had it hand delivered? The man took a boat and hand delivered it to the Batteroo office.

I think telegrams just take longer to reach Roohparvar when he's kicking it up in the Bahamas sipping banana daiquiri's.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on June 14, 2016, 09:38:27 pm

Quote

Be the first to enjoy two 4-packs of AA Batterisers! That means 8 AA Batterisers from our first shipment.

Technically, its not a lie... There will never actually be a first shipment, and you're much more likely to enjoy it if you never actually receive it...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on June 15, 2016, 01:36:01 am

It is getting awefully quiet here... But I understand! No updates, no nothing... But it would be a shame if this would vanish into oblivion. (Is that correct English?).
I think Bob and Frankie are having a wonderful time in Asia (if they ever went there). Probably busy with the new 'chip'...
Shame...  :( Would be great to tear this thing apart.
Fortunately we have a few more Scampaigns to focus on. Fontus?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on June 15, 2016, 02:37:24 am

Quote from: Marcel_X on June 15, 2016, 01:36:01 am

But it would be a shame if this would vanish into oblivion. (Is that correct English?).

Yep ... perfect English.

Just like the Batteriser is perfect Bullsh*t.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on June 15, 2016, 03:51:08 am

Is looking for 'investors' on IGG any different when advertising than it would be in any other 'legal' forum?

If not - I expect that Batteroo's misleading and deceptive statements to 'investors' would constitute a fraud if they knew at some time before the announced ship date - that a working product was impossible to manufacture & sell - yet they insist on taking more orders and promising delivery dates.

I expect the (US) SEC would be interested if they're not already, but in the future - to open a path for investigating this type of questionable promotion and marketing without adequate resources, skills or insurance to ensure fair expectations, and continuous disclosure to the 'investors' and 'customers'.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on June 15, 2016, 05:58:43 am

The only chips they are playing with at the moment are the ones at the Macau casinos.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on June 15, 2016, 10:16:52 am

Quote from: Fungus on May 25, 2016, 11:58:00 am

Quote from: Delta on May 25, 2016, 11:03:54 am

I wonder if all the media outlets and "tech" websites who gushed over it will have anything to say?  Hopefuly your mate at the SMH will do a little follow-up at least...

Yep.

We need to start bothering people like the CNet editors who gave this a "Product of the Year" award before it was even available.

Lets also have a look at the Popular Forum Owner who called these kind of guys "highly respected journalists" and shut down critical forum members who dared to question the existence of a "prototype" these "highly respected journalists" claimed to have seen as the only ones in the world at that time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 15, 2016, 10:54:01 am

Quote from: Galenbo on June 15, 2016, 10:16:52 am

Lets also have a look at the Popular Forum Owner who called these kind of guys "highly respected journalists" and shut down critical forum members who dared to question the existence of a "prototype" these "highly respected journalists" claimed to have seen as the only ones in the world at that time.

IIRC, you've been warned about continually harping on about this before. Let it go.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on June 15, 2016, 12:58:32 pm

Quote from: SL4P on June 15, 2016, 03:51:08 am

I expect the (US) SEC would be interested if they're not already

You're not buying stock in Batteroo, why would the SEC be involved?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on June 15, 2016, 01:24:34 pm

Quote from: rich on June 14, 2016, 10:51:13 am

Since it all went quiet on the book of face and IGG the marketing droids have been showing re-runs of old image on instagram: https://www.instagram.com/batteriser.official/ (https://www.instagram.com/batteriser.official/)

I just had a look at Facebook to see if what I just said was still true, and found this little gem from June 9th.

Quote from: Batteriser, June 9 at 8:11pm

We receive word from our factory tomorrow with all the information we need to announce the shipping dates. Expect an Indiegogo update soon!

It was a big paper (probably an A0 sheet) with "WORD" written on it?....

 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on June 15, 2016, 08:32:56 pm

Quote from: Godzil on June 15, 2016, 01:24:34 pm

It was a big paper (probably an A0 sheet) with "WORD" written on it?....

 :-DD

Maybe someone from Roohparvar's IT "team" is coming to install Microsoft Word on his machine?? He just has to wait for the media to arrive from the factory/warehouse.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on June 15, 2016, 09:12:14 pm

https://youtu.be/MZjAantupsA

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on June 15, 2016, 10:00:05 pm

Quote from: rich on June 14, 2016, 10:51:13 am

Quote from: Batteriser, June 9 at 8:11pm

We receive word from our factory tomorrow with all the information we need to announce the shipping dates. Expect an Indiegogo update soon!

My theory is that they are waiting for everyone to die off.  I think people on the "what to do when you die" topic need to put their purchases in their will and see if their heirs can collect 50 years from now.  My guess is in 50 years the shipping date will be "soon".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on June 16, 2016, 02:13:08 am

Quote from: ez24 on June 15, 2016, 10:00:05 pm

My guess is in 50 years the shipping date will be "soon".

I feel you are being rather generous - and far too optimistic.

IMHO, in 50 years we'll have had more hollow promises from at least dozen dodgy deal desperados.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on June 16, 2016, 03:03:12 am

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I was looking forward to the 2032 version, I won't coin that phrase ever again.   :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on June 17, 2016, 01:05:46 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on June 16, 2016, 03:03:12 am

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I was looking forward to the 2032 version, I won't coin that phrase ever again.   :palm:

You have coined them!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on June 18, 2016, 02:30:14 am

Maybe we will have a resolution to this matter in 2032.  It's just another 16 years.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on June 18, 2016, 02:48:10 pm

WIKIPEDIA: Just in case anyone else is interested to add/comment.
I added a paragraph on Wikipedia (quoted below) on Batteriser's Wikipedia page, but it was reverted by another member 'Ronz'.

I have no reason to suspect Ronz is affiliated with Batteriser, but it makes me question the objectivity of Wikipedia and their editors.

Quote

May 2016 - No independently verified tests have been offered to support any of the battery life benefits claimed for the product.  No products have been shipped to investors/backers - hence there is no evidence the Batteriser exists or works as claimed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 18, 2016, 04:22:27 pm

Quote from: SL4P on June 18, 2016, 02:48:10 pm

it makes me question the objectivity of Wikipedia and their editors.

Wikipedia editors can't possibly monitor every page 24/7.

You can help them out by reporting 'Ronz' to the Wiki Police. What he's doing is strictly against the rules.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on June 19, 2016, 12:11:21 am

Quote from: SL4P on June 18, 2016, 02:48:10 pm

WIKIPEDIA: Just in case anyone else is interested to add/comment.
I added a paragraph on Wikipedia (quoted below) on Batteriser's Wikipedia page, but it was reverted by another member 'Ronz'.

I have no reason to suspect Ronz is affiliated with Batteriser, but it makes me question the objectivity of Wikipedia and their editors.

Quote

May 2016 - No independently verified tests have been offered to support any of the battery life benefits claimed for the product.  No products have been shipped to investors/backers - hence there is no evidence the Batteriser exists or works as claimed.

To be honest with you, unless you have an awful lot of time on your hands, I'd be wary of editing anything on Wikipedia that seems to attract uber pedants and individuals with apparently unexplained hidden agendas. Wikipedia user Ronz has spent many days and weeks of their life together with another user who tried to anonymise themselves (and who affected content by voting multiple times using anonymous logins) systematically vandelising other Wikipedia pages with connections to this forum. Probably not a battle worth fighting and getting wound up about IMHO.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on June 19, 2016, 12:28:31 am

Cheers to that!    Done, a query was raised with wiki police.
Not really wanting to get worked up, just interested in having fraudsters and bullies 'called out'!

Maybe someone else wants to do something similar - keep the torch turned on both teams.

EDIT:  A very prompt reply from Wikipedia, that included this para...

Quote

The verifiability policy states: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is
verifiability, not truth — that is, whether readers are able to check that
material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source,
not whether we think it is true."

Paraphrased... "never let the truth get in the way of a good story."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on June 19, 2016, 01:33:37 am

Quote from: SL4P on June 19, 2016, 12:28:31 am

Paraphrased... "never let the truth get in the way of a good story."

I think "It's not what you know, it's what you can prove", is more appropriate for Wikipedia.  It's fair enough really.

We need that journo from the Sydney Morning Herald (I think she was the only one to be even sceptical of the BatterBros ridiculous claims) to do a follow-up article, thus giving a reliable source to reference.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 19, 2016, 07:03:57 am

Quote from: SL4P on June 18, 2016, 02:48:10 pm

WIKIPEDIA: Just in case anyone else is interested to add/comment.
I added a paragraph on Wikipedia (quoted below) on Batteriser's Wikipedia page, but it was reverted by another member 'Ronz'.
I have no reason to suspect Ronz is affiliated with Batteriser, but it makes me question the objectivity of Wikipedia and their editors.

Ronz is one of at least two people who are hell bent on getting my Wikipedia page removed.
So obsessed that my Talk page is bigger than Donald Trumps!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:David_L._Jones
The other is of course a famous unnamed banned individual who caused no end of trouble on this forum and will not be spoken of again.

Quote

May 2016 - No independently verified tests have been offered to support any of the battery life benefits claimed for the product.  No products have been shipped to investors/backers - hence there is no evidence the Batteriser exists or works as claimed.

[/quote]

That last sentence is demonstrably untrue. The product as a prototype exists.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on June 19, 2016, 09:21:53 am

Quote from: EEVblog on June 19, 2016, 07:03:57 am

Quote from: SL4P on June 18, 2016, 02:48:10 pm

WIKIPEDIA: Just in case anyone else is interested to add/comment.
I added a paragraph on Wikipedia (quoted below) on Batteriser's Wikipedia page, but it was reverted by another member 'Ronz'.
I have no reason to suspect Ronz is affiliated with Batteriser, but it makes me question the objectivity of Wikipedia and their editors.

Ronz is one of at least two people who are hell bent on getting my Wikipedia page removed.
So obsessed that my Talk page is bigger than Donald Trumps!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:David_L._Jones
The other is of course a famous unnamed banned individual who caused no end of trouble on this forum and will not be spoken of again.

Quote

May 2016 - No independently verified tests have been offered to support any of the battery life benefits claimed for the product.  No products have been shipped to investors/backers - hence there is no evidence the Batteriser exists or works as claimed.

That last sentence is demonstrably untrue. The product as a prototype exists.
[/quote]

Isn't fame nice Dave ;)

If you ran as US president ( aside from the minor thing of birth and being on a watch list, like most of the rest of the planet) you probably would get a good chunk of the vote, as your followers are more likely to get off the couch and vote for you.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on June 19, 2016, 09:45:50 am

mea culpa...
It doesn't exist as a product.
Point taken, Batteriser is a roaring success, and the Butt Bros are in line for a Nobble Prize.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on June 19, 2016, 10:58:12 am

Quote from: SL4P on June 19, 2016, 09:45:50 am

mea culpa...
It doesn't exist as a product.
Point taken, Batteriser is a roaring success, and the Butt Bros are in line for a Nobble Prize.

That's not what Dave says. Batteroo has shown a prototype and I have no doubt that they could come up with something that works it is just impossible to get the performance they claim.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 19, 2016, 11:19:12 am

Quote from: meeder on June 19, 2016, 10:58:12 am

That's not what Dave says. Batteroo has shown a prototype and I have no doubt that they could come up with something that works it is just impossible to get the performance they claim.

Let's be real about this.
Batteroo could have and would have shipped this ages ago if no one had kicked up a technical stink about it.
It would have been a piss-poor product that didn't get close to their claims, but that wouldn't have mattered because the placebo effect and customer confirmation bias would have kicked in and they'd have countless non-technical customs giving it positive reviews.

It's because they have been called out on their BS claims that there has been delay after delay, because they have no idea how to ship anything now that wouldn't get torn to shreads in the technical media now that they are on the radar. Not that they can, they know very well that anything they ship won't come close to their claims.
Even if they were technically incompetent (through lack of effort or whatever, because these are smart guys) or delusional enough to think it could have worked before, so much data has been shown to them that blows it out the water, and they are smart enough to know that now. The game is up.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on June 19, 2016, 11:22:13 am

Quote from: EEVblog on June 19, 2016, 11:19:12 am

...they are smart enough to know that now. The game is up.

Not enough for Wikipedia.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 19, 2016, 11:31:40 am

Quote from: SL4P on June 19, 2016, 11:22:13 am

Quote from: EEVblog on June 19, 2016, 11:19:12 am

...they are smart enough to know that now. The game is up.

Not enough for Wikipedia.

I just took a look at the Wikipedia page which I have not seen for a long time.
Chnages I'd make:
- The first paragraph "The Batteriser has received both positive and negative reviews". There of course have been no reviews of the actual product.

Quote

Another source of contention surrounds the brownout voltages for battery-operated devices. David L. Jones in his EEV Blog used a programmable power supply to determine that nearly all devices function in some respect until around 1.1V, or roughly 80% of a battery's life due to the non-linear discharge cycles of batteries. This stands in contrast to Batteriser's claim that using a Batteriser will unlock the remaining 80% of power (from 1.3V downwards).[9] Batteriser has counter-argued that the bench power supply test is flawed, because of the definitions used by Jones to define device functionality, the inherent differences between power supplies and batteries on the basis of Equivalent Series Resistance (ESR), and different measures of voltage (confusion between open circuit voltage and closed circuit voltage).[12][13]

I of course did a follow-up video on this explaining why their argument has little to no merit.

Quote

David Jones on EEV Blog raised the concern that because the Batteriser acts as a ground for the boost converter circuit, any nick in the insulation might result in a direct short, and potentially a fire.[16]

They essentially acknowledged this and fixed it with a coating.

Quote

Due to the anonymous nature of the attacks, it is currently unknown who was responsible. Batteroo has received a lot of criticism due to circumstantial evidence, but suspicion is present that Batteroo's competitors attempted to generate bad publicity for the product.

Batteroo don't have any competitors.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on June 19, 2016, 07:33:22 pm

Quote from: meeder on June 19, 2016, 10:58:12 am

Batteroo has shown a prototype and I have no doubt that they could come up with something that works it is just impossible to get the performance they claim.

If they even ever made a prototype, it had nothing to do with the specs and performance they claimed.
Like promising a speedboat and then showing the prototype that matches the flintstones.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on June 19, 2016, 07:38:40 pm

Quote from: SL4P on June 18, 2016, 02:48:10 pm

..., but it makes me question the objectivity of Wikipedia and their editors.

there is a large groupthink problem on Wikipedia, witch also occurs on many forums, this one being one of the exceptions that performs better.

I once was a far witness of an accident on a festival, the guy was dead.
I added that to the wiki page of the festival, must have been 40 seconds online I think.
Problem is the organisation was warned about those visitor's behavour, and did nothing. That makes them guilty of ignoring, and guilty of covering up.

 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on June 20, 2016, 10:39:28 am

Wikipedia biggest issue is "trust references not truth"

Unless they change that behaviour you can't read any technical articles without a lot of doubt.
I'm working on documenting an old device, and the Wikipedia page is full of errors, I corrected them with explanation in the edit comment,to get them reverted a few minutes later because "no references so it's not valid".

Bummers.. (There were issues like saying 512Kbyte instead of when it's in kbit for memory)

The best part is that a stupid thing I corrected was "referenced" to an online magazine article that was claiming to use data from Wikipedia..., uhhhhh? That's pretty handy isn't it? (And it was about some pretty stupid things.)

After that incident I've completely lost trust in Wikipedia, that's just a lair of trolls.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on June 20, 2016, 10:46:49 am

This is kinda sad, because Wikipedia in its early days, was looking like a valid resource to take the place of paper encyclopaedia, but while it's grown over the years, my trust in their objectivity is waning.

As mentioned earlier, the pool if editors seem to be protecting their cohort by 'staying safe' rather than recording both casually documented facts along with scholarly referrals. 
You can have both, but it demands respect for the contributors - which may be slipping... and that brings resort for thee distorts, which may also be slipping.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on June 20, 2016, 03:06:07 pm

 Wow, didn't read that whole Talk page, but skimmed it. Seems like Tsavage is a voice of reason pretty much opposing every one of Ronz's proposals. I like the one most of the way down where he refutes Ronz's claim that there is insufficient external source references by citing a count of them by type. And all Ronz can say is "if you don't want to support your position..."  :palm:

 All I want to know is, what in the world did you do to piss off this guy so much that he want to wipe any reference to your existence from Wikipedia? Turn him down for a job? Tell him his circuit design was crap? Wait, I know - one of those beers that got poured down the drain was his favorite, and he just can't fathom the idea that there are people in the world who just don't like beer.  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on June 20, 2016, 04:21:33 pm

I don't know what the Wikipedia Ronz story is (ISTR there is a Ronz on this forum too, I assume there is no connection). The individual just seems to have an inordinate amount of time to spend on busy bodying themselves on Wikipedia judging from the enormous number of deletions and other edits he/she is involved in across a large number of Wikipedia entries.

The other individual who changed their Wikipedia user name to try to avoid being identified as a banned EEVblog user has recently suddenly been very quiet, since it was discovered that that individual had been using different IP addresses to make comments and vote wihout logging in.

That individual also accused other contributors of all manner of things including having a conflict of interest and s/he also had a go at doxing other contributors... only to get all upset when the conversation turned back on him/her suggesting where the real conflict of interest lay.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/%E3%82%BC%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AD/Archive

S/he has also recently had IP address proxy unblocks refused, one can only draw the conclusion the perp is trying to continue with his/her sockpuppetry.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:%E3%82%BC%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AD

Wikipedia is indeed a weird place that's for sure.

Anyway, this is totally off topic, back to the Batteriser nonsense!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on June 21, 2016, 06:22:52 am

Quote from: Howardlong on June 20, 2016, 04:21:33 pm

Anyway, this is totally off topic, back to the Batteriser nonsense!

Can someone create a "cymbal clanging monkey" icon to add to the repertoire of smileys?  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on June 21, 2016, 08:24:28 am

(http://i.imgur.com/EdNu4HP.gif)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on June 21, 2016, 03:15:48 pm

I checked on the progress of the trademark soap opera again today, it's quietly had 2 more submissions in late May...

20 May 2016, Batteroo submitted: "Request for Express Abandonment of Application" for both Batterise and Batteriser marks and argues that because the opposition only relates to these marks, then that opposition should be dismissed:

Quote from: Batteroo [url=http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-91225355-OPP-6.pdf

http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-91225355-OPP-6.pdf[/url]]
Because these are the only subject of this opposition before the trial and appeal board, applicant further requests that this opposition be dismissed.

23 May 2016 Energizer requests a: "Motion for summary judgement" asks for judgement of the opposition not to be 'dismissed', but be entered against Batteroo:

Quote from: Energizer  [url=http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-91225355-OPP-7.pdf

http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-91225355-OPP-7.pdf[/url]]
Opposer never consented in writing, or otherwise, to the abandonment. As a result, Opposer respectfully requests pursuant to 37 CFR § 2.135 that the Board enter a judgment in its favour in Opposition No. 91225355. Applicant’s request that the opposition be dismissed as a result of the abandonment is improper and should be denied.

And for completeness CFR § 2.135 states:

Quote from: CFR § 2.135

After the commencement of an opposition, concurrent use, or interference proceeding, if the applicant files a written abandonment of the application or of the mark without the written consent of every adverse party to the proceeding, judgment shall be entered against the applicant.

If it's as simple as Energizer states then Batteroo have deliberately lost and can now legitimately claim big battery killed them!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on June 21, 2016, 03:36:07 pm

Quote from: Godzil on June 20, 2016, 10:39:28 am

Wikipedia biggest issue is "trust references not truth"

Unless they change that behaviour you can't read any technical articles without a lot of doubt...
After that incident I've completely lost trust in Wikipedia, that's just a lair of trolls.

I still like them a lot for things I don't know much about.

Last example was Ethernet/IP (Industrial protocol) used by PLC manufacturers, where their claim: "totally new concept nothing to do with the existing ethernet but compatible blablabla" caused some questions in my head.
Wikipedia contains a lot of info that explained it's just another protocol on top of TCP/IP and/or UDP/IP, often object oriented, with open/documented/vendorspecific objects.

I can't imagine a better source to get that info fast and clear, I'm sure there could be some errors, but the time these are important I would already have switched over to other sources. It's a good best-effort example, nobody garantees perfection, but at least it's there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on June 21, 2016, 03:41:41 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on June 19, 2016, 07:03:57 am

Ronz is one of at least two people who are hell bent on getting my Wikipedia page removed.
So obsessed that my Talk page is bigger than Donald Trumps!

Make some video about improving the performance of guns with electronics, or the way a sensor network could be used on the Wall, and you put a new record :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: apis on June 21, 2016, 09:24:12 pm

Quote from: Godzil on June 20, 2016, 10:39:28 am

Wikipedia biggest issue is "trust references not truth"

Unless they change that behaviour you can't read any technical articles without a lot of doubt.
I'm working on documenting an old device, and the Wikipedia page is full of errors, I corrected them with explanation in the edit comment,to get them reverted a few minutes later because "no references so it's not valid".

After that incident I've completely lost trust in Wikipedia, that's just a lair of trolls.

The problem is that there are a lot of people who claim to be experts, or who really are experts but are completely wrong anyway. The only way Wikipedia can determine what is true is by delegating the problem to "reliable sources". After all, if the majority of the worlds experts agree on something no-one can fault Wikipedia for saying it is so (even if in some cases it turns out to be wrong).

Wikipedias biggest issue, imo, is that every subject matter that is the slightest bit controversial becomes a war-zone (huge time sink and endless source of frustration) and in the end the side with the largest crowd of zelots win (it's not supposed to work like that, but it does). So you can't really trust anything that's controversial, especially if it's an article that has gotten little media attention so only few people have it on their watch-list, Daves page is a perfect example. Then there are paid editors (advertisers/lobbyists) that edit incognito in order to promote some special interest, the Batteriser is as good example as any. We know they paid for Youtube likes (and dislikes) so why not Wikipedia.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on June 21, 2016, 10:07:13 pm

Quote from: apis on June 21, 2016, 09:24:12 pm

Quote from: Godzil on June 20, 2016, 10:39:28 am

Wikipedia biggest issue is "trust references not truth"

Unless they change that behaviour you can't read any technical articles without a lot of doubt.
I'm working on documenting an old device, and the Wikipedia page is full of errors, I corrected them with explanation in the edit comment,to get them reverted a few minutes later because "no references so it's not valid".

After that incident I've completely lost trust in Wikipedia, that's just a lair of trolls.

The problem is that there are a lot of people who claim to be experts, or who really are experts but are completely wrong anyway. The only way Wikipedia can determine what is true is by delegating the problem to "reliable sources". After all, if the majority of the worlds experts agree on something no-one can fault Wikipedia for saying it is so (even if in some cases it turns out to be wrong).

Wikipedias biggest issue, imo, is that every subject matter that is the slightest bit controversial becomes a war-zone (huge time sink and endless source of frustration) and in the end the side with the largest crowd of zelots win (it's not supposed to work like that, but it does). So you can't really trust anything that's controversial, especially if it's an article that has gotten little media attention so only few people have it on their watch-list, Daves page is a perfect example. Then there are paid editors (advertisers/lobbyists) that edit incognito in order to promote some special interest, the Batteriser is as good example as any. We know they paid for Youtube likes (and dislikes) so why not Wikipedia.

I agree with that, the issue is when there is NO reliable source, and the only one used is a source reliying on Wikipedia to announce things! that Wikipedia then use as a reference.
And it's not like if the change I made was that huge, it was just to correct some stupid things written, and in fact I even added some sources, but it seems that the device manufacturer is not a reliable source anyway so.

My concern is to not let AT ALL the possibility to correct an error, even with a discussion, especially on subject which are not "mainstream".

It's a bit like if the Wikipedia page was telling that Dave is Austrian, because a "reputable" website made a mistake (or read wikipedia that were saying that) even if you can prove using Dave website that he is Australian.

Also there are plenty of things on wikipedia which does not have a "reference on each word", sometimes there is not even a single reference, and no one really complain.

Anyway, I'm fed with Wikipedia, still using it, but not even try to help editing/updating things.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on June 21, 2016, 11:17:04 pm

Quote from: Godzil on June 21, 2016, 10:07:13 pm

Anyway, I'm fed with Wikipedia, still using it, but not even try to help editing/updating things.

I guess that's the only way to deal with it. It's also the reason why I would never give them the dollars they falsely-desperately ask.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on June 21, 2016, 11:52:50 pm

An interesting consequence of 'democracy' in action.
Those that speak loudest receive, the rest have to accept whatever they get.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on June 21, 2016, 11:55:31 pm

I wouldn't call it 'interesting' as much as 'inevitable'.

It's a fundamental of the democratic process - and it's why there are 'activists' ... they try to get people involved.


For those who do not exercise their voice, lack of representation MUST ensue.  The Australian Federal election coming up being our next major opportunity. (off topic)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 22, 2016, 01:15:00 am

Please don't derail the thread, stick to the Batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on June 22, 2016, 01:27:21 am

Sorry - msg deleted because it was off topic

To the point:

Why does a magazine continue to post this:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html)

(just read about the break in - so that is probably the reason behind the delay ha ha)

Has PCWorld gone to the dogs (been years since I bought an issue).  Seems that if they had any integrity they would take this page down.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 22, 2016, 01:55:43 am

Quote from: ez24 on June 22, 2016, 01:27:21 am

Why does a magazine continue to post this:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html)

Because magazine and blogs typically don't delete old posts and articles, and that's a good thing from an archive point of view. If it needs a correction then they can amend it.
It's out of sight and out of mind.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on June 22, 2016, 11:34:43 am

Quote from: EEVblog on June 22, 2016, 01:55:43 am

Quote from: ez24 on June 22, 2016, 01:27:21 am

Why does a magazine continue to post this:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html)

Because magazine and blogs typically don't delete old posts and articles, and that's a good thing from an archive point of view. If it needs a correction then they can amend it.
It's out of sight and out of mind.

Didn't the book "1984" have some comment on this type of thing? Change/modify all the historical records of a thing/statement, and that thing/statement ceases to have ever existed in its previous form...  :-\ If they change the online article into a piece critical of Batteriser's claims, who are we to suggest they ever sycophantically supported it?  |O Thank goodness for screenshots!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on June 23, 2016, 08:36:01 am

Hi,

We can mark three months since the last comment by Bob on the IGG Campaign:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=235544;image)

I hope that this doesn't just fade away....

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on June 23, 2016, 08:59:46 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on June 23, 2016, 08:36:01 am

I hope that this doesn't just fade away....

it already has, at least for most.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on June 23, 2016, 09:33:04 am

They are still plugging on with stuff, it's just less visible:

• Withdrawn their Trademark applications for Batteriser and Batterise
• New marketing preview video up with Batteroo rather than Batteriser branding
• Still deleting posts on Facebook, including their own which said they would receive word from the factory  'tomorrow'. And as per normal, tomorrow never came.
  

Videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrCzEXfmFXA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrCzEXfmFXA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTspXnSZJgQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTspXnSZJgQ)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on June 23, 2016, 10:43:50 am

Quote from: Kjelt on June 23, 2016, 08:59:46 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on June 23, 2016, 08:36:01 am

I hope that this doesn't just fade away....

it already has, at least for most.

I guess they'd rather die than f-f-fade away...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on June 23, 2016, 11:36:05 am

Quote from: samgab on June 22, 2016, 11:34:43 am

Thank goodness for screenshots!

Your screenshots can always be redefined as fake images, as part of a conspiracy. And then be used against you, as evidence.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on June 23, 2016, 07:52:03 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on June 23, 2016, 11:36:05 am

Quote from: samgab on June 22, 2016, 11:34:43 am

Thank goodness for screenshots!

Your screenshots can always be redefined as fake images, as part of a conspiracy. And then be used against you, as evidence.

It'd never come to that. Even though images are removed, Facebook retains logs and metadata. Circumstantial evidence alone would suggest that the comments did exist (at least in some form) and were removed by Batteroo themselves. Removal in itself would cast severe doubt on their story and claims that the screenshots were malicious. That's also how a criminal court works, if you can cast doubt or attack someones character over one small aspect, you assume that everything else that person has said was doubtful (even if it wasn't).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on June 24, 2016, 10:17:23 am

I'm wondering how some of the 'interested parties' that have blogged on the "Batteryriser" are feeling these days?

I tried to engage one in some constructive discussion a few months back - but he seemed so hell bent on kicking the Engineering community to the kerb, that he ended up blocking me.

There are several parts of the blog I'd like to make reference to - but to be fair, I would need to transcribe them, so I shall limit myself to this excerpt - and I quote:

Quote

You're attacking the hell out of this $2.50 device like if somebody spent $2.50 it would be the end of the world.  I'm not worried about spending $2.50.  I'll find out if it freakin' works.  If it works, you know, we'll get a few of them, we could spend ten bucks or whatever - and, you know, somebody will say ... well ... if I get scammed, I get scammed.

I would like to respond by saying - Engineers and like minded people don't look at the cost as being an excuse for getting scammed.  If it isn't going to work as advertised, they are going to challenge it.  On principle.  They are also going to look at the bigger picture - not just from the small value of each individual's contribution, but from the total take the scammers will walk away with.

It seems some bloggers are content to let them do that.

This particular blogger challenged my assertion that everybody is waiting for them to ship - and while it was not my original scope, I must accept there is one corner of the world where this is true - Batteroo.


The rest of us want to see one in the flesh.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: chris_leyson on June 24, 2016, 10:47:33 am

Maybe they have finished the electronics or perhaps they are still working on it, who knows. What interests me is how the hell you pick and place battery sleeves onto pasted up PCBs and expect them to stay upright when going through the reflow oven. Also the sleeve would have to remain dimensionally accurate to match the PCB footprint whilst being reflowed. Even if the product worked it would be an engineering nightmare to manufacture, I suspect it would take a lot of fixures and tooling just to get the manufacturing right. Yet another oversight from Batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 24, 2016, 11:36:08 am

Quote from: chris_leyson on June 24, 2016, 10:47:33 am

Maybe they have finished the electronics or perhaps they are still working on it, who knows.

(raises hand)

Me! I know!!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on June 24, 2016, 11:44:51 am

Quote from: Fungus on June 24, 2016, 11:36:08 am

Quote from: chris_leyson on June 24, 2016, 10:47:33 am

Maybe they have finished the electronics or perhaps they are still working on it, who knows.

(raises hand)

Me! I know!!

 :D I bet you were one of those kids who sat at the front of the classroom! :D

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on June 25, 2016, 09:27:22 pm

Quote from: chris_leyson on June 24, 2016, 10:47:33 am

Maybe they have finished the electronics or perhaps they are still working on it, who knows. What interests me is how the hell you pick and place battery sleeves onto pasted up PCBs and expect them to stay upright when going through the reflow oven. Also the sleeve would have to remain dimensionally accurate to match the PCB footprint whilst being reflowed. Even if the product worked it would be an engineering nightmare to manufacture, I suspect it would take a lot of fixures and tooling just to get the manufacturing right. Yet another oversight from Batteroo.

Surely the sleeves would just be spot welded in a jig? Much like regular battery packs with nickel terminal tabs?

...though now you mention it, I wouldn't put it past batteroo to try and pick and place and reflow oven them. Just to give them another excuse as to why manufacturing is delayed..

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on June 26, 2016, 03:27:04 am

Quote from: Macbeth on June 25, 2016, 09:27:22 pm

Quote from: chris_leyson on June 24, 2016, 10:47:33 am

Maybe they have finished the electronics or perhaps they are still working on it, who knows. What interests me is how the hell you pick and place battery sleeves onto pasted up PCBs and expect them to stay upright when going through the reflow oven. Also the sleeve would have to remain dimensionally accurate to match the PCB footprint whilst being reflowed. Even if the product worked it would be an engineering nightmare to manufacture, I suspect it would take a lot of fixures and tooling just to get the manufacturing right. Yet another oversight from Batteroo.

Surely the sleeves would just be spot welded in a jig? Much like regular battery packs with nickel terminal tabs?

...though now you mention it, I wouldn't put it past batteroo to try and pick and place and reflow oven them. Just to give them another excuse as to why manufacturing is delayed..

Does anyone know if spot welding stainless to a copper trace is even possible?  I thought that they would *have* to solder the clip to the PCB. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on June 26, 2016, 04:46:50 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on June 26, 2016, 03:27:04 am

Quote from: Macbeth on June 25, 2016, 09:27:22 pm

Quote from: chris_leyson on June 24, 2016, 10:47:33 am

Maybe they have finished the electronics or perhaps they are still working on it, who knows. What interests me is how the hell you pick and place battery sleeves onto pasted up PCBs and expect them to stay upright when going through the reflow oven. Also the sleeve would have to remain dimensionally accurate to match the PCB footprint whilst being reflowed. Even if the product worked it would be an engineering nightmare to manufacture, I suspect it would take a lot of fixures and tooling just to get the manufacturing right. Yet another oversight from Batteroo.

Surely the sleeves would just be spot welded in a jig? Much like regular battery packs with nickel terminal tabs?

...though now you mention it, I wouldn't put it past batteroo to try and pick and place and reflow oven them. Just to give them another excuse as to why manufacturing is delayed..

Does anyone know if spot welding stainless to a copper trace is even possible?  I thought that they would *have* to solder the clip to the PCB.

It is possible (I've done it before) but the result is not very strong (unless great care is taken in adding lots of vias to the copper to strengthen it).
But the Batterizer is really the very opposite of a hard to manufacture product. The steps are:

- bog-standard PCBM & PCBA
- bog-standard metal die punching and forming (and some type of dip coating)
- solder / weld sleeve component to PCB
- Profit? (this step it seems is where they're having some trouble...)

Yes it'll need a jig for soldering the sleeve to the PCB, but that's trivial for any competent factory / contract manufacturer. We're hardly talking something as complicated as building an injection mold set here (and nobody's too surprised to see a consumer electronics product in a molded plastic case...)

For reliability, it'd make sense to use some type of selective soldering equipment to avoid the reliability issues with manual soldering: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2Ov67WgC7Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2Ov67WgC7Q)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on June 26, 2016, 04:52:53 am

Or if regular selective soldering isn't fun enough, there's always laser selective soldering: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnyB9btlhS8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnyB9btlhS8)

So you'd use a solder paste dispenser (rather than screen printing, as that doesn't work after the regular components are already placed) followed by selective soldering of the sleeve held by a jig.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on June 26, 2016, 05:11:43 am

Quote from: janekm on June 26, 2016, 04:46:50 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on June 26, 2016, 03:27:04 am

Quote from: Macbeth on June 25, 2016, 09:27:22 pm

Quote from: chris_leyson on June 24, 2016, 10:47:33 am

Maybe they have finished the electronics or perhaps they are still working on it, who knows. What interests me is how the hell you pick and place battery sleeves onto pasted up PCBs and expect them to stay upright when going through the reflow oven. Also the sleeve would have to remain dimensionally accurate to match the PCB footprint whilst being reflowed. Even if the product worked it would be an engineering nightmare to manufacture, I suspect it would take a lot of fixures and tooling just to get the manufacturing right. Yet another oversight from Batteroo.

Surely the sleeves would just be spot welded in a jig? Much like regular battery packs with nickel terminal tabs?

...though now you mention it, I wouldn't put it past batteroo to try and pick and place and reflow oven them. Just to give them another excuse as to why manufacturing is delayed..

Does anyone know if spot welding stainless to a copper trace is even possible?  I thought that they would *have* to solder the clip to the PCB.

It is possible (I've done it before) but the result is not very strong (unless great care is taken in adding lots of vias to the copper to strengthen it).

OK, well at least I'm not the only one that drops a lot of vias into pads that get battery clips, etc. soldered onto them. 

That's the funny thing about the Batteriser.  The failure mode won't just be limited to the lousy electrical engineering - it's likely going to be the peeling of the copper pads since they're in tension when the battery is installed. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on June 26, 2016, 02:56:49 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on June 23, 2016, 07:52:03 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on June 23, 2016, 11:36:05 am

Quote from: samgab on June 22, 2016, 11:34:43 am

Thank goodness for screenshots!

Your screenshots can always be redefined as fake images, as part of a conspiracy. And then be used against you, as evidence.

It'd never come to that. Even though images are removed, Facebook retains logs and metadata. Circumstantial evidence alone would suggest that the comments did exist (at least in some form) and were removed by Batteroo themselves. Removal in itself would cast severe doubt on their story and claims that the screenshots were malicious. That's also how a criminal court works, if you can cast doubt or attack someones character over one small aspect, you assume that everything else that person has said was doubtful (even if it wasn't).

You are very unaware of how framing, redefining and oppression works in my part of the world, I'm also happyly surprised of how court works in your part of the world.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on June 26, 2016, 03:00:17 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on June 26, 2016, 03:27:04 am

Does anyone know if spot welding stainless to a copper trace is even possible?  I thought that they would *have* to solder the clip to the PCB.

The one example I saw, was a combination of a rivet-like deformation and spotwelding.

The deformation for the real-mechanic strength, and the spotwelding for the better electrical contact and to prevent corrosion, they said.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: chris_leyson on June 28, 2016, 01:25:28 pm

Thanks janekm, I really liked the micro soldering video and that's the first time I've seen laser soldering.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on June 28, 2016, 01:29:19 pm

Speaking of firsts, we're still waiting on Batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on June 28, 2016, 05:04:32 pm

Well as of yesterday (27 June) the Batteriser+Batterise trademark application/opposition was laid to rest:

By the Trademark Trial and Appeal Board:
On May 20, 2016, Applicant filed an abandonment of its applications Serial Nos. 86571275 and 86571464. On May 23, 2016, Opposer filed a motion seeking judgment under Trademark Rule 2.135.
Trademark Rule 2.135 provides that if, in an inter partes proceeding, the applicant files an abandonment without the written consent of every adverse party to the proceeding, judgment shall be entered against the applicant.
In view thereof, and because Opposer's written consent to the abandonment is not of record, Opposer’s motion is GRANTED. Judgment is hereby entered against Applicant, the opposition is sustained and registration to Applicant is refused.1

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on June 28, 2016, 05:10:31 pm

So this means that they can use the name batteriser? My legal English isn't that good...

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on June 28, 2016, 05:13:27 pm

So their excuse that they can't use the batteriser name is now bullshit.

Edit: Typing on phone. Fixed grammar.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on June 28, 2016, 05:16:07 pm

I guess so!
But I guess they'll have additional delays because of this  ;D

Quote

"At this point, we already have the Batteriser name and logo design on all of our packaging, cases, wrappers, and brochures as well as the Batteriser product itself. As a result, we will now have to redesign and retool all of these items with our new product name and logo.  We are working on minimizing the effect this change has on our shipping schedule."

They have retooled everything, threw away their original tooling... Back to the drawing board :-DD

Edit: D@mn... Misunderstood the legal stuff. So we'll be hearing about the new name soon I guess!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on June 28, 2016, 05:18:51 pm

Quote from: meeder on June 28, 2016, 05:10:31 pm

So this means that they can use the name batteriser? My legal English isn't that good...

It means Batteroo abandoned the application for the trademarks 'Batterise' and 'Batteriser'.
And because Energizer didn't agree to abandoning the fight then Energizer win the opposition case by default.

Hope that clarifies things.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on June 28, 2016, 05:55:19 pm

Quote from: Marcel_X on June 28, 2016, 05:16:07 pm

They have retooled everything, threw away their original tooling... Back to the drawing board :-DD

With all this talk of trademarks and tooling, etc.  One would think people think this is a legit project.  I think with so many people believing in this, someone should start a company selling shares in the Brooklyn Bridge.  At least you can see the bridge.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on June 28, 2016, 07:22:57 pm

Put in plain english:

On the 20th of May Batteroo abandoned their application to trademark the names. This was accepted by the trademark body, as the opposer (Energizer) didn't even bother answering the abandonment notice. :)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on June 28, 2016, 07:39:56 pm

Sorry, McBryce, not quite.

Energizer specifically responded to the abandonment and asked the appeal board to make a ruling. Energizer argued the ruling should go against Batterroo as Energizer did not support the abandonment.
The ruling did go against Batteroo.

somewhere higher up in this thread I posted the juicy parts of those filings.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on June 28, 2016, 07:46:53 pm

Ah, ok. From the single post above I interpreted it slightly different. But the outcome is the same. Batteroo lost.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on June 28, 2016, 08:36:26 pm

The is how one can actually win (the game) by losing (the legal battle).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on June 28, 2016, 08:40:25 pm

Backer wrote they sent the following out in an email: "We will be announcing the new product name, unveiling our new logo and supplying further details in the coming weeks."  -  May 7

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on June 28, 2016, 10:23:51 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on June 28, 2016, 08:40:25 pm

Backer wrote they sent the following out in an email: "We will be announcing the new product name, unveiling our new logo and supplying further details in the coming weeks."  -  May 7

They can't even release a name let alone a product   :-DD
I'm still waiting for my media kit. Happy to cover up the Batteroo logo in the video...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on June 29, 2016, 05:04:36 am

Quote from: meeder on June 28, 2016, 05:10:31 pm

So this means that they can use the name batteriser? My legal English isn't that good...

It means Batteroo lost. Energizer won.

They can't call it Batteriser.


(And I bet they're not unhappy)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on June 29, 2016, 06:58:12 am

Terrible name to start with. If you make a product that extends the battery life you should call it so people know what it does and means.
So "batterybooster" or the sorts would have been a more appropriate name.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on June 29, 2016, 08:06:40 am

I would recommend them the name of SuperBatt, as it is already somewhat red, they will only need to add some blue PCB with gold contact (yellow), and for the Logo a simple S(b) in a diamond liked shape should be perfect!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on June 29, 2016, 10:31:26 am

Quote from: rich on June 28, 2016, 05:04:32 pm

Well as of yesterday (27 June) the Batteriser+Batterise trademark application/opposition was laid to rest:

By the Trademark Trial and Appeal Board:
On May 20, 2016, Applicant filed an abandonment of its applications Serial Nos. 86571275 and 86571464. On May 23, 2016, Opposer filed a motion seeking judgment under Trademark Rule 2.135.
Trademark Rule 2.135 provides that if, in an inter partes proceeding, the applicant files an abandonment without the written consent of every adverse party to the proceeding, judgment shall be entered against the applicant.
In view thereof, and because Opposer's written consent to the abandonment is not of record, Opposer’s motion is GRANTED. Judgment is hereby entered against Applicant, the opposition is sustained and registration to Applicant is refused.1

Boo! Mean old Big Battery bullying a poor little start up that was just trying to save the planet, (80% of) one alkaline cell at a time.  >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on June 29, 2016, 01:31:28 pm

I don't understand the legalese, but sounds like a formal defect because of a noob lawyer?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on June 29, 2016, 01:47:18 pm

Hgizeri,

My understanding of the Trademark dispute is:

If the Batteriser trademark application was abandoned there would be no ruling in the case.

If there is a ruling in favour of Energizer, this is better for Energizer in future disputes, because they can argue that Batteriser was denied. This may help Energizer in similar disputes.

So this is why Energizer did not want to allow Batteroo to abandon their application.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on June 29, 2016, 02:04:29 pm

There was a ruling in the opposition case. It went against Batteroo and Trademarks were officially denied.

I'm sure it's a tactic that is well rehearsed at Energizer:- convince the applicant they should just give up for the sake of their time/money, but never formally agree in writing to the abandonment. That ensures the application goes away and there is a record of the opposition being upheld.

From: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/37/2.135 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/37/2.135)

Quote from: CFR § 2.135

After the commencement of an opposition, concurrent use, or interference proceeding, if the applicant files a written abandonment of the application or of the mark without the written consent of every adverse party to the proceeding, judgment shall be entered against the applicant.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on June 29, 2016, 02:31:39 pm

Quote from: meeder on June 28, 2016, 05:10:31 pm

So this means that they can use the name batteriser? My legal English isn't that good...

No, the opposite - Energizer's formal opposition to the trademark registration has been upheld (i.e. Energizer win). It means that Batteriser cannot be registered as a trademark. It's not a formal block to the use of the name, just its registration, but using a name that had been effectively blocked from registration would be a risky and very strange thing to do.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on June 29, 2016, 02:41:58 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on June 28, 2016, 08:40:25 pm

Backer wrote they sent the following out in an email: "We will be announcing the new product name, unveiling our new logo and supplying further details in the coming weeks."  -  May 7

As someone with no skin in the game I was kind of fine with giving them the benefit of the doubt about at least *attempting* to ship while delaying to find a retail partner to make this actually worthwhile, and then after giving up on that simply being clueless about design for manufacturing. But several weeks just to announce a product name/logo? When their current logo is clearly just off of Fiverr? Yeah, there's no way in hell they have any intention of shipping anything now.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: alsetalokin4017 on June 29, 2016, 03:36:56 pm

Here, they can have this one for free:

Batterloozer.



 >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on June 29, 2016, 04:21:59 pm

Or my suggestion:

Batterollocks

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on June 29, 2016, 04:32:59 pm

Thanks for the clarification. I read the legal text again and now it's clear to me.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on June 29, 2016, 08:16:30 pm

"The battery sleeve formerly known as..."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on June 29, 2016, 08:28:27 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on June 29, 2016, 08:16:30 pm

"The battery sleeve formerly known as..."

...with backing by The New Power Generation.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on June 29, 2016, 10:01:05 pm

Oh, oh, I've got it. They can revive another power company name ... The Enronizer!  >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on June 30, 2016, 03:01:29 am

Quote from: Cerebus on June 29, 2016, 10:01:05 pm

Oh, oh, I've got it. They can revive another power company name ... The Enronizer!  >:D

Energiser would likely shoot that one down as well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on June 30, 2016, 03:24:13 am

I think the most suitable name would be  "Gonerizer"

Don't think it is trademarked

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on June 30, 2016, 04:51:38 am

Sounds like a STD.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on June 30, 2016, 05:00:10 am

Quote from: Brumby on June 30, 2016, 04:51:38 am

Sounds like a STD.

Oh dear - I meant it as in "gone"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on June 30, 2016, 05:10:30 am

Quote from: Brumby on June 30, 2016, 04:51:38 am

Sounds like a STD.

Watch out for the capacitor discharge!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on June 30, 2016, 05:16:51 am

Quote from: Smokey on June 30, 2016, 05:10:30 am

Quote from: Brumby on June 30, 2016, 04:51:38 am

Sounds like a STD.

Watch out for the capacitor discharge!

You guys have a dirty mind -
Dave  - no more on this from me

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on June 30, 2016, 08:17:16 am

Quote from: alsetalokin4017 on June 29, 2016, 03:36:56 pm

Here, they can have this one for free:

Batterloozer.



 >:D

Batterbuyanewcell

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on June 30, 2016, 09:00:51 am

The least Batteroo / Roohparvar could do is release a cocktail recipe book to all the backers of all the beverages they've spent the Indiegogo money on.

I'll start...

Code: [Select]

BATTERISER 800% (Vodka, Mint & Lime)

55 grams (1/4 cup, firmly packed) brown sugar
24 fresh mint leaves
3 limes (quartered)
180ml vodka
Soda water (chilled)
Ice cubes

Divide sugar, mint and lime among six serving glasses. Use the end of a rolling pin to gently pound until lime is crushed.
Add vodka. Top with soda water and ice.

 :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on July 01, 2016, 12:16:05 am

That will actually come out delicious. It's not too far off how I make Mojitos. (Not too keen on White Rum, prefer neutral spirits like Vodka).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on July 01, 2016, 03:16:27 am

Drinks aside - there's still that bad taste in the mouth waiting for the-product-formerly-known-as Batt*****r...

... to be named
... to be photographed
... to be shipped

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 01, 2016, 08:16:55 am

Quote from: Brumby on July 01, 2016, 03:16:27 am

waiting for the-product-formerly-known-as Batt*****r...

... to be named
... to be photographed
... to be shipped

Why on earth would they want to do any of that? The game would be over.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on July 01, 2016, 07:17:15 pm

Would eat into the profits as well, what with all the costs of actually producing something other than vapourware.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on July 01, 2016, 07:59:40 pm

Quote from: Macbeth on July 01, 2016, 12:16:05 am

That will actually come out delicious. It's not too far off how I make Mojitos. (Not too keen on White Rum, prefer neutral spirits like Vodka).

Here is the result since the rebrand and re-tooling, and upgrading to quality lab gear, I present to you the 800% Lemoniser.

(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d123/photobucket391/beaa6a89ace6e05b692abb43b78f9f40_zpsb8gfcz99.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on July 01, 2016, 08:40:13 pm

Quote from: Howardlong on July 01, 2016, 07:59:40 pm

Quote from: Macbeth on July 01, 2016, 12:16:05 am

That will actually come out delicious. It's not too far off how I make Mojitos. (Not too keen on White Rum, prefer neutral spirits like Vodka).

Here is the result since the rebrand and re-tooling, and upgrading to quality lab gear, I present to you the 800% Lemoniser.

(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d123/photobucket391/beaa6a89ace6e05b692abb43b78f9f40_zpsb8gfcz99.jpg)

I respectfully request that you submit your testing jig to Underwriters Laboratories for independent verification.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on July 01, 2016, 09:36:34 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on July 01, 2016, 08:40:13 pm

Quote from: Howardlong on July 01, 2016, 07:59:40 pm

Quote from: Macbeth on July 01, 2016, 12:16:05 am

That will actually come out delicious. It's not too far off how I make Mojitos. (Not too keen on White Rum, prefer neutral spirits like Vodka).

Here is the result since the rebrand and re-tooling, and upgrading to quality lab gear, I present to you the 800% Lemoniser.

I respectfully request that you submit your testing jig to Underwriters Laboratories for independent verification.

Stick that up a monkey's ass!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on July 05, 2016, 08:26:08 am

Quote from: Godzil on June 29, 2016, 08:06:40 am

I would recommend them the name of SuperBatt,

I suggest Turbo-Bat.

Because a Turbo only works when the engine is OK, and when the tank is nearly empty, it helps to empty it faster.
And for normal useage of the car, totally not needed :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 05, 2016, 08:34:47 am

Any bets on an update in July?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on July 05, 2016, 09:05:44 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 05, 2016, 08:34:47 am

Any bets on an update in July?

I prefer my chances on tonights Lotto draw  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on July 05, 2016, 09:06:39 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 05, 2016, 08:34:47 am

Any bets on an update in July?

I wonder if Roohparvar's tax year is the same as ours? What's the bet he is busy writing off his "investment losses" as we speak...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on July 05, 2016, 02:44:29 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 05, 2016, 08:34:47 am

Any bets on an update in July?

I reckon we'll get one soon.  Probably a whole lot sooner that the last soon was.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on July 05, 2016, 03:08:09 pm

I do like an optimist - but preferably not one with both feet firmly planted in mid air.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on July 05, 2016, 07:00:24 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 05, 2016, 08:34:47 am

Any bets on an update in July?

You are starting to talk like Mr. R   Which July ?  Mr. R does not like to say what year.

I will bet yes by July 2032  (so which will get more news, Mr. R or the asteroid ? )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on July 18, 2016, 07:46:59 am

It seems as though Batteriser are no longer providing "updates" to the majority of their backers unless they join the mailing list? Perhaps to avoid public scrutiny?

They also appear to have come up with a new meaning of the word "soon".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on July 18, 2016, 07:56:45 am

So is anyone here subscribed to the mailing list? They banned me from their Facebook page so I can't contact them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 18, 2016, 07:57:55 am

Quote from: Halcyon on July 18, 2016, 07:46:59 am

It seems as though Batteriser are no longer providing "updates" to the majority of their backers unless they join the mailing list? Perhaps to avoid public scrutiny?

Is anyone getting those email updates?
BTW, the Facebook page is not Batteroo, it is not official communications from them. They basically admit that in the screen capture: "We at the Facebook page"
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=241205;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on July 18, 2016, 07:59:07 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 18, 2016, 07:57:55 am

Quote from: Halcyon on July 18, 2016, 07:46:59 am

It seems as though Batteriser are no longer providing "updates" to the majority of their backers unless they join the mailing list? Perhaps to avoid public scrutiny?

Is anyone getting those email updates?
BTW, the Facebook page is not Batteroo, it is not official communications from them.

What?! Really? Could have fooled me. They seem to be speaking on behalf of Batteroo a hell of a lot.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on July 18, 2016, 08:06:39 am

I think Batteroo uses it as an excuse. When something is posted that backfires they can simply claim that it wasn't their fault.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on July 18, 2016, 09:39:52 am

If they aren't the real Batteroo, they should not be presenting themselves as such.  Furthermore, it is against Facebook policy.

I would recommend they be reported for impersonation.  Facebook will then require them to prove their identity.  The account should only be allowed to continue if they can do so - which means they will then NOT be able to claim they're not 'official'.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 18, 2016, 09:43:55 am

Quote from: meeder on July 18, 2016, 08:06:39 am

I think Batteroo uses it as an excuse. When something is posted that backfires they can simply claim that it wasn't their fault.

Exactly, just like the Youtube page that blew up in their face big time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 18, 2016, 09:45:34 am

Quote from: Brumby on July 18, 2016, 09:39:52 am

I would recommend they be reported for impersonation.  Facebook will then require them to prove their identity.  The account should only be allowed to continue if they can do so - which means they will then NOT be able to claim they're not 'official'.

They are no doubt paid by Batteroo to run the page. In that respect it's "official". But it would not be the first time that Batteroo have not claimed responsibility for something that was posted seaming on their behalf.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on July 18, 2016, 01:00:50 pm

"Much much sooner than the 'soon' of the past" I see this spokesperson, official or not, has a great career ahead in politics. Or upper management.

What's amazing is that this was back on video 751, and Dave has now passed 900 videos. And still no product, working or otherwise. Just more redefining of words delaying the inevitable, or else trying to bide their time until someone actually does invent unobtanium.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 19, 2016, 10:03:19 am

Quote from: rrinker on July 18, 2016, 01:00:50 pm

"Much much sooner than the 'soon' of the past" I see this spokesperson, official or not, has a great career ahead in politics. Or upper management.

What's amazing is that this was back on video 751, and Dave has now passed 900 videos. And still no product, working or otherwise. Just more redefining of words delaying the inevitable, or else trying to bide their time until someone actually does invent unobtanium.

Six months ago they used to post actual responses to Dave's videos, on Youtube! They were all bullshit, but they were responses.

The level of visible activity from BatterBros has dropped significantly since then. Two or three orders of magnitude less.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on July 19, 2016, 10:27:08 am

Quote from: Fungus on July 19, 2016, 10:03:19 am

Six months ago they used to post actual responses to Dave's videos, on Youtube! They were all bullshit, but they were responses.

The level of visible activity from BatterBros has dropped significantly since then. Two or three orders of magnitude less.

I think we have to provide them with some new exuses  >:D My guess is, that after the initial crowdfunding and support from SK Telecom nobody else failed for their scammerizer and now they're trying to get away as silently as possible. Hopefully they are on the radar screen of some US state attorney general who want's to teach the crowdfunding fraudsters a lesson. Would really help to improve the quality of crowdfunding projects. There's simply too much BS and the crowdfunding platforms don't care.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on July 19, 2016, 10:59:07 am

Quote from: madires on July 19, 2016, 10:27:08 am

 Hopefully they are on the radar screen of some US state attorney general who want's to teach the crowdfunding fraudsters a lesson. Would really help to improve the quality of crowdfunding projects. There's simply too much BS and the crowdfunding platforms don't care.

I'm sure they have bigger fish to fry and on what legal basis? The whole point with this crowdfunding is that you are taking a gamble on the successful outcome of investment not buying a finished product... you pay your money and take your chances, its down to you as an individual to do the research and determine if it's worthwhile paying out money.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 19, 2016, 11:08:48 am

Quote from: StuUK on July 19, 2016, 10:59:07 am

I'm sure they have bigger fish to fry and on what legal basis? The whole point with this crowdfunding is that you are taking a gamble on the successful outcome of investment not buying a finished product... you pay your money and take your chances, its down to you as an individual to do the research and determine if it's worthwhile paying out money.

And the problem is it's not illegal to be clueless, incompetent, or delusional enough to believe things that aren't possible. As long as you don't deliberately lie or do something fraudulent, then you can be as wrong as can be, or fail to deliver anything, and no one can touch you.
In the case of Batteroo, there is really no legal onus on them to listen to anyone or the evidence we put forward that their claims won't work. They can happily plod along forever believing their widget will work.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on July 19, 2016, 12:30:15 pm

Quote from: StuUK on July 19, 2016, 10:59:07 am

I'm sure they have bigger fish to fry and on what legal basis? The whole point with this crowdfunding is that you are taking a gamble on the successful outcome of investment not buying a finished product... you pay your money and take your chances, its down to you as an individual to do the research and determine if it's worthwhile paying out money.

Basically I agree, but most people don't understand that and the crowdfunding flatforms suggest it's more like a online shop. They offer you packages ("you'll get the product, an USB cable and a mug"). If the amount of packages is limited and all are gone, the package is marked as "sold out". WTF? And another point is that it's not as simple as bet, but also not regulated like stocks. Still it's a contract, and not in a grey area. A lot of people pay money to someone trying to desgin and produce a product with some specified features. If that someone lies to the "customers" he's fully responsible. And if the promises and features aren't feasable it might be a fraud. Of course nobody would hire a lawyer about a few lost bucks and sue the crowdfunder. That's why there are so many bad projects and crowdfunders simply walking away.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on July 19, 2016, 01:15:57 pm

Quote from: madires on July 19, 2016, 12:30:15 pm

Quote from: StuUK on July 19, 2016, 10:59:07 am

I'm sure they have bigger fish to fry and on what legal basis? The whole point with this crowdfunding is that you are taking a gamble on the successful outcome of investment not buying a finished product... you pay your money and take your chances, its down to you as an individual to do the research and determine if it's worthwhile paying out money.

Basically I agree, but most people don't understand that and the crowdfunding flatforms suggest it's more like a online shop. They offer you packages ("you'll get the product, an USB cable and a mug"). If the amount of packages is limited and all are gone, the package is marked as "sold out". WTF? And another point is that it's not as simple as bet, but also not regulated like stocks. Still it's a contract, and not in a grey area. A lot of people pay money to someone trying to desgin and produce a product with some specified features. If that someone lies to the "customers" he's fully responsible. And if the promises and features aren't feasable it might be a fraud. Of course nobody would hire a lawyer about a few lost bucks and sue the crowdfunder. That's why there are so many bad projects and crowdfunders simply walking away.

Investor (or should I say contributor) beware!

If fact people should read the terms and conditions of such sites before parting with their money.

quote from Indeigogo terms and conditions:-

Definitions
In these Terms, we refer to those raising funds as "Campaign Owners" and to their fundraising campaigns as "Campaigns." We refer to those contributing funds as "Contributors" and to the funds they contribute as "Contributions." Campaign Owners, Contributors and other visitors to the Services are referred to collectively as "Users."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on July 19, 2016, 01:34:30 pm

Hi,

I think one of the issues is here is that they overstated their progress in the IGG campaign:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=241488;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=241490;image)

There is evidence, in the form of a Patent application, by Frankie, that the idea existed before September 2011, but they were certainly not as close to production as stated in the IGG campaign. This is definitely a deliberate act of deceit.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=241492;image)

Whether the thing works properly all or not could be considered a gray area, but implying you are ready for production is not.

In addition, the idiots  nice people that gave them a product of the year award 2015, for a product that doesn't exist, should be public humiliated (as a minimum).

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on July 19, 2016, 06:10:22 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 19, 2016, 11:08:48 am

And the problem is it's not illegal to be clueless, incompetent, or delusional enough to believe things that aren't possible. As long as you don't deliberately lie or do something fraudulent, then you can be as wrong as can be, or fail to deliver anything, and no one can touch you.
In the case of Batteroo, there is really no legal onus on them to listen to anyone or the evidence we put forward that their claims won't work. They can happily plod along forever believing their widget will work.

Not so. Try Googling the phrases "knew or should have known" or "reckless disregard of the truth" and you'll find lots of details of fraud cases that have been prosecuted and lots of statutory law from lots of different jurisdictions.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on July 21, 2016, 01:41:15 pm

Hey all you haters, it's big battery's fault for all the delays:

"We have our product waiting to be shipped, we are just being slowed down with the ongoing litigation issues with Energizer, who are doing everything in their power to make sure our product is unsuccessful"

To be fair to Batteroo, they have now had plenty of time since they showed the prototype panel photos to finish a full production run.

References:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on July 21, 2016, 02:28:07 pm

Quote from: rich on July 21, 2016, 01:41:15 pm

Hey all you haters, it's big battery's fault for all the delays:

"We have our product waiting to be shipped, we are just being slowed down with the ongoing litigation issues with Energizer, who are doing everything in their power to make sure our product is unsuccessful"

To be fair to Batteroo, they have now had plenty of time since they showed the prototype panel photos to finish a full production run.

References:

Rich, is this a sarcastic post or should I read into it that you believe this? just checking....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 21, 2016, 02:31:36 pm

Anyone else see this thread pop up in the new unread posts list and think "it could be another update!" and always get disappointed?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on July 21, 2016, 02:40:21 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 21, 2016, 02:31:36 pm

Anyone else see this thread pop up in the new unread posts list and think "it could be another update!" and always get disappointed?

yep, was hoping for some new bullshit not old bullshit

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on July 21, 2016, 02:40:37 pm

Quote from: StuUK on July 21, 2016, 02:28:07 pm

Rich, is this a sarcastic post or should I read into it that you believe this? just checking....

We may be enjoying/suffering a heatwave in the UK, but my brain hasn't melted out of my ears just yet  ;)
I'd call them out on Facebook, but Batteroo blocked me a long time.

Quote from: EEVblog on July 21, 2016, 02:31:36 pm

Anyone else see this thread pop up in the new unread posts list and think "it could be another update!" and always get disappointed?

Sorry for being a disappointment. I thought it was an valid update as they've now come out and publicly stated they are all built, ready to ship, and it's Energizer actively obstructing them in that process. I also wanted to archive such a bold assertion.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on July 22, 2016, 01:23:58 am

Hi group,

Today marks 4 months since the last update on IGG.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=242480;image)


I wonder how the guys at SK telecom are feeling? I wonder if they get any requests for updates, after all they are on the board of Batteroo.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 22, 2016, 02:01:19 am

Quote from: rich on July 21, 2016, 02:40:37 pm

they've now come out and publicly stated they are all built, ready to ship, and it's Energizer actively obstructing them in that process. I also wanted to archive such a bold assertion.

Which is of course complete BS, all Energizer did was win the Trademark suit. Feels like they are setting up an exit strategy perhaps?
If they were ready to ship and Energizer were actually hindering them (haven't heard a peep about this before), they would would post real updates on IGG and photos etc and rally the support of the community.
But nope, all we get a non-official update on IGG from whoever is paid to run that page.
They have never mentioned Energizer or the Trademark dispute officially on the IGG update page, not once. It's the most blatant game of smoke and mirrors I've ever seen.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on July 22, 2016, 03:08:31 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 22, 2016, 02:01:19 am

... they are all built, ready to ship, and it's Energizer actively ....

Don't you know - Energizer is going to make them destroy their stock and thus end it all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on July 22, 2016, 04:51:02 am

We know Batteroo already look to this forum for 'intel'.

Stop giving them ideas.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 22, 2016, 05:16:48 am

Quote from: ez24 on July 22, 2016, 03:08:31 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 22, 2016, 02:01:19 am

... they are all built, ready to ship, and it's Energizer actively ....

Don't you know - Energizer is going to make them destroy their stock and thus end it all.

You'd think they'd at least take a picture of it...  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 22, 2016, 06:46:00 am

Quote from: Fungus on July 22, 2016, 05:16:48 am

You'd think they'd at least take a picture of it...  :popcorn:

Everyone has been saying this for over a year now  ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 22, 2016, 06:54:38 am

Quote from: ez24 on July 22, 2016, 03:08:31 am

Don't you know - Energizer is going to make them destroy their stock and thus end it all.

My prediction for the next update:

"We had finished production and were ready to ship out to all the backers, but then Energizer forced us to scrap all our inventory because of the Trademark case. We can no longer ship any units because doing so would infringe upon Energizers trademark. As a result we have no money left over to retool and build new units, so unfortunately we have to now abandon production, out hand has been forced by Big Battery.
We knew that Big Battery would do anything to crush our technology, they did not want it in the hands of consumers otherwise it would have destroyed their big profit business!
It was a great fight, and thanks for joining us on the journey. We sincerely hope that one day we can still free people from the crushing burden of Big Battery.
Bye."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on July 22, 2016, 07:30:06 am

Waiting for the plagiarism....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on July 22, 2016, 08:09:25 am

We and any others - must not let the name Roohparvar (please correct my spelling) drop off the search radar.    Batteriser and Batteroo are fine - but make sure to bind all three together - so future searchers will reveal their collusion and allow future investors to get some idea of who they're working with.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on July 22, 2016, 01:30:20 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 22, 2016, 02:01:19 am

Quote from: rich on July 21, 2016, 02:40:37 pm

they've now come out and publicly stated they are all built, ready to ship, and it's Energizer actively obstructing them in that process. I also wanted to archive such a bold assertion.

Which is of course complete BS, all Energizer did was win the Trademark suit. Feels like they are setting up an exit strategy perhaps?

Yes, agree, most likely exit strategy. Or if they are still in denial about product viability then a long delay tactic until that new improved silicon/whatever BS arrives. Loop while $ > 0.

How do professional journalists get quotes from big corporates? I'd love to hear what Energizer have to say about the allegations. And SK for that matter too.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on July 23, 2016, 10:18:59 am

I had a genuine update to this a few days back but haven't gotten around to posting it.
I got an alert from my website monitor change detection thingee that the batteriser.com website had some significant changes to it the other day.
I thought, wow, they've probably posted on there some news, or changed the name, removing batteriser, but no.
If you look here:
http://www.changedetection.com/log/batteriser/index_log2.html (http://www.changedetection.com/log/batteriser/index_log2.html)
...you can see highlighted the changes that were made on their website.

On the 16th of July they deleted a bunch of stuff, deleted all the UL references and deleted all of the names of the other members except the Roopedoopedooh brothers etc, and added a list of "features" including some of the same old drivel which I won't repeat again here. And the name Batteriser is still throughout the page. Plus they added "Presale coming soon"

Then, on the 17th of July they made another bunch of changes on the website, adding "quotes" from magazines etc praising their imaginary product, re-adding the FCC compliance stuff and the UL certification stuff again, reiterating the claptrap about supposedly 6x greater life out of a Golf GPS (which they know is soundly disproven; showing they're clearly intent on mis-informing and deceiving people, in a word: SCAM.) They also added the other members of the team back onto the homepage. And the name Batteriser is still littered throughout the page and site, although they have no legal right to use that name.

So the major website changes on the 16th and 17th basically amounted to a bit of spit and polish on a big stinking turd.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on July 23, 2016, 10:50:33 am

Changes to keep the website higher in search results?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on July 27, 2016, 10:19:30 pm

Quote from: samgab on July 23, 2016, 10:18:59 am

And the name Batteriser is still littered throughout the page and site, although they have no legal right to use that name.

?? What ?? No legal right to use that name ? That's B.S....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: helius on July 27, 2016, 10:47:06 pm

It appears to be "appropriating the trade dress" of another well-known 'izer in the battery market...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 28, 2016, 02:10:58 am

Quote from: f4eru on July 27, 2016, 10:19:30 pm

Quote from: samgab on July 23, 2016, 10:18:59 am

And the name Batteriser is still littered throughout the page and site, although they have no legal right to use that name.

?? What ?? No legal right to use that name ? That's B.S....

It might be BS, but Energiser challenged their trademark of Batteriser and they won. Batteroo admitted defeat and the case is now closed. So Batteroo can no longer use the name Batteriser, or at least do anything meaningful with it like ship a product with that name on it.
Well, actually they can, they won't go to jail for it, but then Energiser would sue their arse and are guaranteed to win.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on July 28, 2016, 07:16:17 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 28, 2016, 02:10:58 am

It might be BS, but Energiser challenged their trademark of Batteriser and they won. Batteroo admitted defeat and the case is now closed. So Batteroo can no longer use the name Batteriser, or at least do anything meaningful with it like ship a product with that name on it.
Well, actually they can, they won't go to jail for it, but then Energiser would sue their arse and are guaranteed to win.

So basically Batteroo will never ship a Batteriser but they are free to claim whatever they like on their website?

Sounds like what we all predicted would happen many months ago. The whole "Big battery killed the Batteriser" etc...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on July 28, 2016, 08:27:55 am

Quote from: Halcyon on July 28, 2016, 07:16:17 am

So basically Batteroo will never ship a Batteriser but they are free to claim whatever they like on their website?

They can't ship anything with the name "Batteriser" on it if they want to avoid litigation.  They are free to ship the same device with a different name, but it's unlikely they will because changing the name doesn't stop it being a steaming pile of crap.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bitwelder on July 28, 2016, 12:08:34 pm

Quote from: mikerj on July 28, 2016, 08:27:55 am

They can't ship anything with the name "Batteriser" on it if they want to avoid litigation.

Is that valid only for everything that would be coming out of Batteroo production lines or could they still "gift" engineering samples, perhaps with an extra 'prototype - not for sale' sticker?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on July 29, 2016, 11:56:19 am

Wait what? I though their patent application was dismissed...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=244252)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on July 29, 2016, 12:25:13 pm

Quote from: bitwelder on July 28, 2016, 12:08:34 pm

Quote from: mikerj on July 28, 2016, 08:27:55 am

They can't ship anything with the name "Batteriser" on it if they want to avoid litigation.

Is that valid only for everything that would be coming out of Batteroo production lines or could they still "gift" engineering samples, perhaps with an extra 'prototype - not for sale' sticker?

As I understand it, the issue about trademark has nothing directly to do with sales as such - it is to do with avoiding confusion in the market.  As such, I think even gifts, samples or whatever would be problematic with the word 'Batteriser' emblazoned on them.  Besides, I would imagine an engineering sample would be more likely devoid of branding, except perhaps for a crappy sticker.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on July 31, 2016, 02:22:08 pm

Google Alerts picked up this news article
http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news/2016/07/29/energizer-sues-california-startup-for-calling-its.html (http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news/2016/07/29/energizer-sues-california-startup-for-calling-its.html)

I thought this bit was hilarious:

Quote

Batteroo “recently” sent an email message to customers in which it “attempted to use Energizer’s Opposition as an excuse for further delays, falsely implying that Energizer was responsible for Batteroo’s product delays,” Energizer said in the lawsuit. An email Energizer received from an apparent Batteroo customer said to the battery maker, “You have caused a delay in receiving my Batteriser products,” according to the suit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on July 31, 2016, 02:46:06 pm

Nice showdown ;) I think, Batteroo will declare bankruptcy within a few days, while telling the backers "smashed by Big Battery". Seems to be the best exit strategy, and the backers will believe that and curse Big Battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on July 31, 2016, 03:06:15 pm

Hi,

I was doing my regular check of the IGG campaign and I found this in the comments:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=244614;image)

Being curious, I ran this through Google Translate:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=244616;image)


I think a more appropriate translation is 'Shit Creek'. :-//

Any Chinese speaking members have a better translation?

[Sarcasm] I am sure this product would have been a resounding success, and delivered many months ago,  if they had been more careful in choosing the name.[/sarcasm]

Regards,
Jay_Diddy_B

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 01, 2016, 03:57:52 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on July 31, 2016, 03:06:15 pm

Hi,

I was doing my regular check of the IGG campaign and I found this in the comments:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=244614;image)

Being curious, I ran this through Google Translate:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=244616;image)


I think a more appropriate translation is 'Shit Creek'. :-//

Any Chinese speaking members have a better translation?

[Sarcasm] I am sure this product would have been a resounding success, and delivered many months ago,  if they had been more careful in choosing the name.[/sarcasm]

Regards,
Jay_Diddy_B

Bing Translate came out with: Hurry and return water (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160801/d8a512d1fd74eed2a5e81ab141cf8b9e.png)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on August 01, 2016, 07:40:07 pm

I think the Chinese guy is saying "hurry up and get back to me with your shitty non-product".

All sing along now: "Big Battery killed the Batteroo star, Big Battery killed the Batteroo star...."  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on August 02, 2016, 03:13:23 pm

 Coincidently I just saw Yes with the same keyboard player who did that song, performing the album where the lead singer was the other guy who did that song.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on August 04, 2016, 01:23:50 am

Ladies and Gentlemen,

We have an update !!!!

Just captured from the IGG Campaign:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=245404;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=245406;image)

I just happened to be checking the site when the update came in.


Seems we have a relatively firm date, not 'soon'. I still have may data logging setup waiting for the sleeves.



Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 04, 2016, 01:27:57 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on August 04, 2016, 01:23:50 am

Ladies and Gentlemen,

We have an update !!!!

Just captured from the IGG Campaign:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=245404;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=245406;image)

I just happened to be checking the site when the update came in.



Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Can't Energizer sue them because they shipped? Or because they were cleared by "Batteroo's" legal team they are in the clear?


And 4 to 8 weeks? Is that basically so it's  a broad range of time and gives them the chance to come up with an asscovering plan to spend money and then make their getaway?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on August 04, 2016, 01:40:21 am

It's probably some loophole where indiegogo isn't a "sale".  It's a free gift for making a contribution or something.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 04, 2016, 01:40:59 am

Quote from: Smokey on August 04, 2016, 01:40:21 am

It's probably some loophole where indiegogo isn't a "sale".  It's a free gift for making a contribution or something.

Makes sense.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: martinr33 on August 04, 2016, 02:53:30 am

I spotted that Batteriser has an FCC report on their website, and thought I would take a look in case there are any battery energy numbers in there.

Of course, there were none.

But I did find something interesting. Batteriser was tested with a  1mA load. That's 100 - 200x less than you might see in a practical device running 5 - 10 hours. Although it handily passed the FCC test, if emissions go up proportionally to current, it will be close to the line of failure, on one side or the other.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on August 04, 2016, 03:35:11 am

Quote from: martinr33 on August 04, 2016, 02:53:30 am

I spotted that Batteriser has an FCC report on their website, and thought I would take a look in case there are any battery energy numbers in there.

Of course, there were none.

But I did find something interesting. Batteriser was tested with a  1mA load. That's 100 - 200x less than you might see in a practical device running 5 - 10 hours. Although it handily passed the FCC test, if emissions go up proportionally to current, it will be close to the line of failure, on one side or the other.

I think the Batteroozer alone might be the motivation many need to buy a SA with field probes.  Oh the fun we'll have. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on August 04, 2016, 04:12:03 am

Quote

We are happy to announce that by August 22nd,

So it could be sooner?....!!!

Quote

we will begin shipping Batteroo sleeves

One wonders what volumes will be involved - and how long it will take to fulfill initial shipment quantities.

Quote

to our distribution centers in the US and around the world!

How long after that before they are released to the public?

They're saying Indiegogo and pre-order units are expected to ship in 4-8 weeks "based on input from our logistics company" - so maybe they will be received in time for Christmas?  (Just a year late.)


This all sounds promising on the surface, but there is still some wriggle room and potential scapegoats.

Time will tell.



For the record, I want to see these things ship - as I am sure a lot of people do.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 04, 2016, 04:23:04 am

Quote from: martinr33 on August 04, 2016, 02:53:30 am

I spotted that Batteriser has an FCC report on their website, and thought I would take a look in case there are any battery energy numbers in there.
Of course, there were none.
But I did find something interesting. Batteriser was tested with a  1mA load. That's 100 - 200x less than you might see in a practical device running 5 - 10 hours. Although it handily passed the FCC test, if emissions go up proportionally to current, it will be close to the line of failure, on one side or the other.

Yep, that's been pointed on here before, the test was flawed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 04, 2016, 04:24:08 am

Get your Golf GPS ready everyone!
What is the exact model number again?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 04, 2016, 04:28:26 am

Ok, so now their plan is clear, they plan to ship and totally ignore every single performance test video posted on Youtube and all the data posted on forums and blogs etc.

Obviously once they ship a single unit the game is up and within days everyone will know that the product doesn't perform even close to their claims. But I suspect their response will be total and utter silence. They will still be hoping for the miracle buy from Walmart or Kmart. They can't possibly have a future selling onesies and twosies on their website.

Their buyout plans are shot because they don't have a trademark now, and likely not a patent either (any update on that?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 04, 2016, 04:31:03 am

I've mentioned on here before I'm sure, that we should set up a public accessible (but restricted edit access?) Google spreadsheet were people can add performance data.
Something simple like:
- Product name and model
- Timed battery life with Alkalines (Baseline)
- Timed extra product life on the "dead" batteries with Batteroo (to bust the 800% bullshit)
- Timed battery life with Batteroo from the start. (To bust any claim of increased life from scratch)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 04, 2016, 04:31:49 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 04, 2016, 04:28:26 am

Ok, so now their plan is clear, they plan to ship and totally ignore every single performance test video posted on Youtube and all the data posted on forums and blogs etc.

Obviously once they ship a single unit the game is up and within days everyone will know that the product doesn't perform even close to their claims. But I suspect their response will be total and utter silence. They will still be hoping for the miracle buy from Walmart or Kmart. They can't possibly have a future selling onesies and twosies on their website.

Their buyout plans are shot because they don't have a trademark now, and likely not a patent either (any update on that?)

So if they have a surplus of them maybe they will pull an Atari and dump all of the sleeves in the desert  like Atari did with the ET cartridges.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on August 04, 2016, 04:35:38 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 04, 2016, 04:31:03 am

I've mentioned on here before I'm sure, that we should set up a public accessible (but restricted edit access?) Google spreadsheet were people can add performance data.
Something simple like Product name and model, and timed battery life with Alkalines with and without the Batteroo

Should be doable. Now the only thing it would need is a catchy acronym or name. Maybe some DaveCad 2.0 charts as well!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on August 04, 2016, 11:26:49 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 04, 2016, 04:28:26 am

Their buyout plans are shot because they don't have a trademark now, and likely not a patent either (any update on that?)

I doubt a lack trademark would stall a determined buyer, but they applied for Batteroo as a trademark back in June so that's covered anyway. The big buyout blockers would be: energiser is still suing for damages, negative public opinion, patent status and financials.

Regarding the patent, they said via Facebook:

Quote from: Batteriser on June 8th, 2016

Batteriser: We have had a lot of good news recently, including that our patent got approved in the US, so I'm sure you'll be seeing us on the shelves in many stores very very soon!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on August 04, 2016, 01:41:14 pm

Quote from: Smokey on August 04, 2016, 01:40:21 am

It's probably some loophole where indiegogo isn't a "sale".  It's a free gift for making a contribution or something.

It doesn't matter if it's a sale, a gift or a promotional pen with a brand name which they may not use. That would give Energizer a strong point in the upcoming lawsuit, because it shows an intentional action of Batteroo. The best way is to print some Batteroo labels and stick them on top of any Batterizer logo. But if they insist on shipping something with a brand name they may not use, after they've been told so...  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 04, 2016, 01:51:41 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on August 04, 2016, 01:27:57 am

Can't Energizer sue them because they shipped? Or because they were cleared by "Batteroo's" legal team they are in the clear?

Energizer are free to sue them at any time for any reason.
Energizer are free to sue Batteroo, or you, or me, just for looking at them the wrong way, just as we can sue them for anything if we had deep enough pockets.

Whether or not they would ultimately win any suit is beside the point, Batteroo are very foolish for coming out publicly and saying they will deliberately ship products with the Batteriser name on them. The "legal opinion" they got means nothing if Energizer get pissed off enough to sue them for it, they will be forced to defend it and will go bankrupt doing so.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 04, 2016, 02:51:38 pm

Yesterday I saw this response, and I thought wow that was a long time ago since someone was positive about this project. Then about 7 hours later finally an update about the project. What a coincidence!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=245457)

Anyway, there once was a time that they promised to start shipping in two weeks or so, and then they didn't...
Now they basically promise to start shipping in 6 to 10 weeks.

It seems to me that they're trying to regain a positive vibe now in the hope to get more pre-sales.

Meanwhile you can still buy them as Batteriser's on their Batteriser.com site, even though they say on igg that they have ditched that name. Seems like they are waiting for a letter from Energizer's lawyers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 04, 2016, 03:10:33 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 04, 2016, 04:28:26 am

Obviously once they ship a single unit the game is up and within days everyone will know that the product doesn't perform even close to their claims. But I suspect their response will be total and utter silence.

I'm not so sure.

First of all I think they know pretty well where to ship the first batteriser's to.

Second is that a lot backers will dig through their pile of discarded batteries once they have their batteriser and find that a lot of those are suddenly usable again. And batteriser/batteroo will get some praises for it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on August 04, 2016, 03:40:54 pm

 Actually, I think they are very sly for publicly stating that they will ship with the Batterizer name. This just BEGS Energizer to file for an injunction given that they've already won the trademark fight, which is now the NEXT excuse for why they WON'T ship on August 22. Sorry folks, we were all ready to ship you your Batterizers, but once again Big Battery has gotten a court order issued which prevents us from bringing you this revolutionary product.

 Also, August 22 - of what year?  :-DD :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on August 04, 2016, 03:54:07 pm

Brilliant! So they just got three months more for the next update  >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on August 04, 2016, 04:23:58 pm

Any photos of the production line? :P :P :P

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on August 04, 2016, 04:27:40 pm

We never believed Batteroo had manufactured many units so when they say they're going to ship some of their existing Batteriser branded inventory, I assume they mean all of it or all they can within a certain timeframe (see below).

I've just read the filing from Energizer's lawsuit where they are seeking damages. It is interesting reading. They deny they ever sought to stop batteroo from shipping existing inventory :popcorn:

Highlights for me were:

• During the trademark negotiations, Energizer offered a 6 month phase out period so existing inventory wouldn't get scrapped.
• Energiser’s Opposition sought only denial of Batteroo’s trademark applications and could not have resulted in an injunction against sales of BATTERISER products.
• Batteroo agreed to send Energizer a sample unit after it shipped to consumers, expected March 2016. It has not yet shipped one to them.
  
• Energizer quotes bateroo Facebook post as deceptively claiming Energizer was blocking shipping.
• Repeated claims that Batteroo was not ready to ship throughout the entire trademark negotiation process.

Choice quotes:

Quote from: Energizer

28. After exchanging initial disclosures, Energizer and Batteroo engaged in negotiations to resolve the Opposition. During negotiations, Energizer, in a good faith effort to resolve the dispute, offered first a 90 day, then a 6 month “phase-out” period for use of the BATTERISER and BATTERISE marks, during which Batteroo could have sold through existing products. Eventually the negotiations reached an impasse, though Batteroo had agreed in principle to the 6 month phase-out provision, prior to the breakdown of negotiations on other terms.

Quote from: Energizer

46. On information and belief, Batteroo still did not have a viable production run of its
product prior to or during the Opposition proceeding. Batteroo recently sent an email message to customers, notifying them that Batteroo would be changing the name of the BATTERISER product as a result of the Opposition filed by Energizer. In the message, Batteroo attempted to use Energizer’s Opposition as an excuse for further delays, falsely implying that Energizer was responsible for Batteroo’s product delays. The message also falsely implies that Energizer prohibited distribution of already manufactured goods.

The whole Energizer document reads like this thread, but written in legal english. I wonder if this thread was a handy chronology for their lawyers. If so, we've all be colluding with big-battery since the beginning  :)

Edit to add: The pdf is at http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/307r4n75a/missouri-eastern-district-court/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/ (http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/307r4n75a/missouri-eastern-district-court/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kilrah on August 04, 2016, 05:39:28 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 04, 2016, 01:51:41 pm

Batteroo are very foolish for coming out publicly and saying they will deliberately ship products with the Batteriser name on them.

There is pretty certainly nothing with the Batterizer name on for them to ship.
Pretty sure they're saying that only so that people continue to believe they actually have existing stock to ship - when they have nothing produced at all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 04, 2016, 06:18:36 pm

Quote from: rich on August 04, 2016, 04:27:40 pm

We never believed Batteroo had manufactured many units so when they say they're going to ship some of their existing Batteriser branded inventory, I assume they mean all of it or all they can within a certain timeframe (see below).

-snip-

Edit to add: The pdf is at http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/307r4n75a/missouri-eastern-district-court/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/ (http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/307r4n75a/missouri-eastern-district-court/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/)

The 'Soon of the past..' quote has found it's way to a legal document:  ;D

Quote

44. Indeed, on May 2, 2016, only 19 days before Batteroo’s abandonment of the
BATTERISER and BATTERISE marks, Batteroo posted a response on Facebook to a consumer
inquiry about availability acknowledging its ongoing delays:
As soon as we have a date, you'll have it. Unfortunately, the best
we on the Facebook page can say is that the current ‘soon’ is
much, much closer than the ‘soon’ of the past. Previously, dates
were given, and they weren’t met. We don’t want that to happen
again. Ever. The next time you have a date from the Batteriser
team, it will be official and definitive: no ambiguity, no surprises,
no delays. In this home stretch, we ask for your patience and
understanding, while extending the guarantee that the product will
be everything we promised.
A capture of this post is attached as Exhibit E. The post makes no mention of Energizer or the
Opposition proceeding, but demonstrates that the product is not yet ready for distribution.

And just like me Energizer thinks that Batteroo is responsible for whatever is posted by Facebook-Batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on August 04, 2016, 11:10:17 pm

Quote from: PeterL on August 04, 2016, 06:18:36 pm

And just like me Energizer thinks that Batteroo is responsible for whatever is posted by Facebook-Batteroo.

Well, if it were not a legitimate official representation for Batteroo, most certainly their top-notch crackerjack legal team should have gone after whoever was causing those illegitimate, unofficial Facebook shenanigans...  Shouldn't they have?!  :)

TLDR: Batteroo knows exactly what those Facebook people are saying...

As for the people above who don't fully understand how trademark protection works...  Just because you don't have a trademark doesn't mean you can't sell your product with a given name but if you can forsee a situation that may be construed as causing confusion it would most certainly be a poor choice of action.  Likewise if you HAVE a trademark on a name or design mark, you still have to defend it.  Having the registration means nothing unless you defend it, it merely gives you a leg up in legal standing, that you officially registered it (the (c) in a circle versus the TM stating we claim this mark). 

Nothing legally forbids Batteroo from shipping an item with the Batterizer name on it, it's just a very stupid thing to do when you know you're already on Energizer's radar for your BS product (that humorously happens to claim Energizer's products are a deceptive sham that only gives you 20% of claimed capacity .. LOL ..)  Energizer needs to DEFEND their marks, which is what they began by filing the recent actual lawsuit in anticipation of more BS from Batteroo.  Realize that this is totally different than Energizer's opposition to Batteroo's proposed trademark of Batterizer (the application which Batteroo abandoned, thus Batteroo have no Batterizer trademark...)

You don't have to get "approval" from anyone to sell an item with a given name but it is always a good idea to do some basic searching of existing products, company names and trademarks, etc. before you do.  We did a LOT of searching for these kinds of things in our office when we did trademark and design searches in the '80s and '90s...

This is Intellectual Property 101, folks....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 05, 2016, 12:29:40 am

Quote from: Kilrah on August 04, 2016, 05:39:28 pm

There is pretty certainly nothing with the Batterizer name on for them to ship.
Pretty sure they're saying that only so that people continue to believe they actually have existing stock to ship - when they have nothing produced at all.

There is absolutely no advantage for them to say this if they didn't actually have Batteriser branded product to ship.
It had been months since the last update, near everyone had forgotten about it all, so they either could have just let it die quietly, or if they now have the new Batteroo branded product to ship then they could have just said that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 05, 2016, 12:38:37 am

Quote from: drussell on August 04, 2016, 11:10:17 pm

You don't have to get "approval" from anyone to sell an item with a given name but it is always a good idea to do some basic searching of existing products, company names and trademarks, etc. before you do.  We did a LOT of searching for these kinds of things in our office when we did trademark and design searches in the '80s and '90s...
This is Intellectual Property 101, folks....

Batteroo in their Trademark defence claimed (obviously) that the name wasn't intended to sound similar to Energizer and play off their name. But to anyone with a mental level over maybe a 8 year old could see that's what they were trying to do, it was very deliberate and they knew it. They took a chance and they got busted for it.
There are two big battery companies in the world and all your marketing is based around using those companies products, and your product name just happens to be similar to one of them, yeah sounds like a coincidence  ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 05, 2016, 12:47:21 am

Quote from: rich on August 04, 2016, 04:27:40 pm

We never believed Batteroo had manufactured many units so when they say they're going to ship some of their existing Batteriser branded inventory, I assume they mean all of it or all they can within a certain timeframe (see below).
I've just read the filing from Energizer's lawsuit where they are seeking damages. It is interesting reading. They deny they ever sought to stop batteroo from shipping existing inventory :popcorn:
Highlights for me were:

• During the trademark negotiations, Energizer offered a 6 month phase out period so existing inventory wouldn't get scrapped.
• Energiser’s Opposition sought only denial of Batteroo’s trademark applications and could not have resulted in an injunction against sales of BATTERISER products.
• Batteroo agreed to send Energizer a sample unit after it shipped to consumers, expected March 2016. It has not yet shipped one to them.
  
• Energizer quotes bateroo Facebook post as deceptively claiming Energizer was blocking shipping.
• Repeated claims that Batteroo was not ready to ship throughout the entire trademark negotiation process.

Choice quotes:

Quote from: Energizer

46. On information and belief, Batteroo still did not have a viable production run of its
product prior to or during the Opposition proceeding. Batteroo recently sent an email message to customers, notifying them that Batteroo would be changing the name of the BATTERISER product as a result of the Opposition filed by Energizer. In the message, Batteroo attempted to use Energizer’s Opposition as an excuse for further delays, falsely implying that Energizer was responsible for Batteroo’s product delays. The message also falsely implies that Energizer prohibited distribution of already manufactured goods.

This is certainly  :popcorn: worthy!
Batteroo are playing with fire and they'll get burned. I wouldn't piss off Energizer.

Quote

The whole Energizer document reads like this thread, but written in legal english. I wonder if this thread was a handy chronology for their lawyers.
Edit to add: The pdf is at http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/307r4n75a/missouri-eastern-district-court/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/ (http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/307r4n75a/missouri-eastern-district-court/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/)

No doubt they are reading this thread. Imagine the lawyer hours just reading this massive thread for evidence. It'd be in the tens of thousands of dollars.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edy on August 05, 2016, 02:07:31 am

At this point, I'm not really surprised by anything Batteroo does with respect to legal stuff. But I am excited about one thing though... If it pans out to be true..... THEY ARE SHIPPING PRODUCT! Finally there will be something to test!  :-+  Now that is GOOD NEWS!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on August 05, 2016, 03:43:02 am

Quote from: edy on August 05, 2016, 02:07:31 am

..... THEY ARE SHIPPING PRODUCT!

When pigs fly. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on August 05, 2016, 03:54:40 am

Quote from: ez24 on August 05, 2016, 03:43:02 am

Quote from: edy on August 05, 2016, 02:07:31 am

..... THEY ARE SHIPPING PRODUCT!

When pigs fly.

That's harsh...

... but probably accurate.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on August 05, 2016, 04:10:28 am

Quote from: Brumby on August 05, 2016, 03:54:40 am

Quote from: ez24 on August 05, 2016, 03:43:02 am

Quote from: edy on August 05, 2016, 02:07:31 am

..... THEY ARE SHIPPING PRODUCT!

When pigs fly.

That's harsh...

... but probably accurate.

If my memory serves me right, a year or two ago, Dave ask for ideas on some sort of project.  I suggested that he fly pigs with a drone.  He did not, thus pigs do not fly.  I think it possible to build a drone that would fly a piglet and maybe train them to steer it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on August 05, 2016, 04:38:10 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 05, 2016, 12:29:40 am

Quote from: Kilrah on August 04, 2016, 05:39:28 pm

There is pretty certainly nothing with the Batterizer name on for them to ship.
Pretty sure they're saying that only so that people continue to believe they actually have existing stock to ship - when they have nothing produced at all.

There is absolutely no advantage for them to say this if they didn't actually have Batteriser branded product to ship.
It had been months since the last update, near everyone had forgotten about it all, so they either could have just let it die quietly, or if they now have the new Batteroo branded product to ship then they could have just said that.

A little part of me is wondering if Batteroo will still try to fly this puppy.  IF they do, then gaining some credibility will be vital - and one way of doing that is to take the opinion that they have no product to ship (which has been broadly expressed on this thread) and disprove it by shipping something (however impotent it may be).

Fan boys will then take this ONE point and celebrate it like the ultimate victory over the 'conspirators' - and claim everything espoused here is just as pure hogwash as the claim of not having a product to ship.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 05, 2016, 05:42:29 am

Quote from: edy on August 05, 2016, 02:07:31 am

At this point, I'm not really surprised by anything Batteroo does with respect to legal stuff. But I am excited about one thing though... If it pans out to be true..... THEY ARE SHIPPING PRODUCT! Finally there will be something to test!  :-+  Now that is GOOD NEWS!

I don't believe it.

Where's the photos of the production run?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on August 05, 2016, 06:02:24 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 05, 2016, 12:29:40 am

Quote from: Kilrah on August 04, 2016, 05:39:28 pm

There is pretty certainly nothing with the Batterizer name on for them to ship.
Pretty sure they're saying that only so that people continue to believe they actually have existing stock to ship - when they have nothing produced at all.

There is absolutely no advantage for them to say this if they didn't actually have Batteriser branded product to ship.
It had been months since the last update, near everyone had forgotten about it all, so they either could have just let it die quietly, or if they now have the new Batteroo branded product to ship then they could have just said that.

Have you read the document in the link provided by rich?

In this document Energizer makes a case that:
a) The delay of the shipment of Batteriser's is not caused by the Trademark dispute,
b) Prior to the moment where Batteroo decided to drop the name 'Batteriser' production had not started yet.

And they base there information on Batteroo's own communication to their backers.

It looks like Batteroo is doing everything they can to make Energizer spend money on lawyers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 05, 2016, 10:18:46 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 05, 2016, 12:47:21 am

Imagine the lawyer hours just reading this massive thread for evidence.

Imagine all the highlighted remarks and notes scrawled in the margins!  :popcorn:

Quote from: ez24 on August 05, 2016, 04:10:28 am

If my memory serves me right, a year or two ago, Dave ask for ideas on some sort of project.  I suggested that he fly pigs with a drone.  He did not, thus pigs do not fly.  I think it possible to build a drone that would fly a piglet and maybe train them to steer it.

They most certainly will! Have you seen http://bartjansen.tv/copter-company (http://bartjansen.tv/copter-company)

If this guy can make a dead Ostrich fly, anything is possible! (The cat is my personal favorite. The best cat is a dead one. An even better one has a remote control.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8yaaaAZ4r4&list=FL13Hrya6jH56Zkc50yag1aA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8yaaaAZ4r4&list=FL13Hrya6jH56Zkc50yag1aA)

Sorry... back on topic now...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: romelec on August 05, 2016, 11:27:51 am

Dave has (had?) a flying pig (at 3:10) !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91iX5sUXrOo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91iX5sUXrOo)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on August 05, 2016, 11:32:11 am

Quote from: Halcyon on August 05, 2016, 10:18:46 am

...They most certainly will! Have you seen http://bartjansen.tv/copter-company (http://bartjansen.tv/copter-company)

If this guy can make a dead Ostrich fly, anything is possible! (The cat is my personal favorite. The best cat is a dead one. An even better one has a remote control.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8yaaaAZ4r4&list=FL13Hrya6jH56Zkc50yag1aA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8yaaaAZ4r4&list=FL13Hrya6jH56Zkc50yag1aA)

Sorry... back on topic now...

Of course dead animals can fly!
How else would they get to heaven?
Bob Roohpavar can walk on water too - just ask him.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: d-smes on August 05, 2016, 12:29:13 pm

Quote from: PeterL on August 05, 2016, 06:02:24 am

Have you read the document in the link provided by rich?

In this document Energizer makes a case that:
a) The delay of the shipment of Batteriser's is not caused by the Trademark dispute,
b) Prior to the moment where Batteroo decided to drop the name 'Batteriser' production had not started yet.

And they base there information on Batteroo's own communication to their backers.

It looks like Batteroo is doing everything they can to make Energizer spend money on lawyers.

I agree- The document is worth a read and Batteroo REALLY made matters worse by being uncooperative.  As a result, we'll NOT see product and Batteroo will cease to exist. 
From the lawsuit document:  http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/download.html?id=237648495&z=d219f5ee (http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/download.html?id=237648495&z=d219f5ee) 

Quote

WHEREFORE, Energizer seeks the following relief:
   A. Actual damages in an amount to be determined at trial;
   B. Batteroo’s profits in an amount to be proven at trial;
   C. The cost of corrective advertising, in an amount to be proven at trial;
   D. A permanent injunction prohibiting Batteroo, and its agents, servants, employees, attorneys and all other persons in active concert or participation with Batteroo, any and all further use of BATTERISER and BATTEROO, and any other colorable imitation of the ENERGIZER® Marks;
   E. An Order requiring Batteroo to destroy all materials bearing the infringing BATTERISER or BATTERISE marks, or any other colorable imitation of the ENERGIZER® Marks;
   F. A permanent injunction prohibiting Batteroo, and its agents, servants, employees, attorneys and all other persons in active concert or participation with Batteroo, any and all further false or misleading claims that Energizer is responsible for Batteroo’s inability to bring a product to market;
   G. Ownership of any and all domain names containing BATTERIZER, BATTERISER, BATTERISE, or any other colorable imitation of the ENERGIZER® Marks, including at least BATTERIZER.com, BATTERIZER.net, BATTERISE.com, BATTERISER.com, and BATTERISER.net;
   H. An award of treble, exemplary and/or punitive damages;
   I. An award of the costs of this action, including reasonable attorneys’ fees;
   J. Prejudgment interest; and
   K. Any other relief this court deems just and proper.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 05, 2016, 12:54:09 pm

Quote from: d-smes on August 05, 2016, 12:29:13 pm

From the lawsuit document:  http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/download.html?id=237648495&z=d219f5ee (http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/download.html?id=237648495&z=d219f5ee) 

Quote

WHEREFORE, Energizer seeks the following relief:
   A. Actual damages in an amount to be determined at trial;
   B. Batteroo’s profits in an amount to be proven at trial;
   C. The cost of corrective advertising, in an amount to be proven at trial;
   D. A permanent injunction prohibiting Batteroo, and its agents, servants, employees, attorneys and all other persons in active concert or participation with Batteroo, any and all further use of BATTERISER and BATTEROO, and any other colorable imitation of the ENERGIZER® Marks;
   E. An Order requiring Batteroo to destroy all materials bearing the infringing BATTERISER or BATTERISE marks, or any other colorable imitation of the ENERGIZER® Marks;
   F. A permanent injunction prohibiting Batteroo, and its agents, servants, employees, attorneys and all other persons in active concert or participation with Batteroo, any and all further false or misleading claims that Energizer is responsible for Batteroo’s inability to bring a product to market;
   G. Ownership of any and all domain names containing BATTERIZER, BATTERISER, BATTERISE, or any other colorable imitation of the ENERGIZER® Marks, including at least BATTERIZER.com, BATTERIZER.net, BATTERISE.com, BATTERISER.com, and BATTERISER.net;
   H. An award of treble, exemplary and/or punitive damages;
   I. An award of the costs of this action, including reasonable attorneys’ fees;
   J. Prejudgment interest; and
   K. Any other relief this court deems just and proper.

That's nasty. Batteroo are up the proverbial brown creek, I hope they have a paddle.
They are going after the Batteroo name too?  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on August 05, 2016, 01:02:14 pm

That's what was in the suit ... but what was the actual outcome?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kilrah on August 05, 2016, 01:27:15 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 05, 2016, 12:54:09 pm

They are going after the Batteroo name too?  :-//

To my understanding that's worth what it's worth, the mention of "batteroo" in the quoted block only relates to (paraphrased) "Batteroo must not do things that could infer a link with Energizer", ie. not use anything in "ise(r)" anymore, no problem with their "batteroo" company name.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on August 05, 2016, 02:28:43 pm

If you look at carefully at bullet point D in the quoted block it does indeed say the use of BATTERISER and BATTEROO marks.  It's so inconsistent with the rest of Count VII section that I assume it to be a typo on Energiser's part?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on August 05, 2016, 02:30:36 pm

Quote from: Brumby on August 05, 2016, 01:02:14 pm

That's what was in the suit ... but what was the actual outcome?

Energizer only filed it last week, so a little early to tell! But the point remains, this is a list of what they are asking to be awarded, not a guarantee of what will be received.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on August 05, 2016, 04:27:18 pm

Quote from: rich on August 05, 2016, 02:30:36 pm

... not a guarantee of what will be received.

That's the point I wanted to make clear.

But, yes, an answer will come ... in time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 05, 2016, 05:42:39 pm

It's a bluff. They're not going to ship anything, they just want to use Energiser as a way out.

Basically all this update says is, "Send us another threatening letter, please! A really nasty one this time!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on August 05, 2016, 07:49:28 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on August 05, 2016, 10:18:46 am

If this guy can make a dead Ostrich fly, anything is possible! (The cat is my personal favorite. The best cat is a dead one. An even better one has a remote control.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8yaaaAZ4r4&list=FL13Hrya6jH56Zkc50yag1aA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8yaaaAZ4r4&list=FL13Hrya6jH56Zkc50yag1aA)

Oh dear, I meant a live pig.  The reason is years ago I saw a video of a horse driving a custom car around a farm (I think from the mid 1900s).  I think a young pig could steer itself towards food.
But I agree this video shows a good use of a cat.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: boffin on August 15, 2016, 07:53:16 pm

One of the things that hasn't been mentioned with regards to Garmin GPS (or I missed it in the hundreds of pages) is that the older Garmin GPSr (at least the old ones like the eTrex series) have a setting "Alkaline/NiCd" which changes the voltage threshold at which the device reports "Battery Low".  It's probably dead easy to replicate their results if:

• You used a NiCd (or MiMH) battery (something with a lower chemistry voltage)
• had the GPSr set to Alakaline (expecting it to have a higher chemistry voltage)

You could then claim you got 8x the lifespan before the battery warning.


Don't have a GPSr here, but I'll go home and take a couple of pics of the settings.  The setting definitely existed on both my old eTrex Vista and my Rino 120

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on August 15, 2016, 09:07:31 pm

Hi,

This has been mentioned in this thread. I am not sure where.

I helped one of the Forum members make a time-lapse video of the Garmin GPS. I helped by supplying two boost converters. The boost converters were my best guess at the Bateriser Batteroo. The video can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00YYQxOn2YE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00YYQxOn2YE)

He used the same GPS and tested with and without the boost circuits.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on August 15, 2016, 09:44:17 pm

 No worries for Batteroo though, you are not a smart PhD like they have working for them, and your circuit is just a poor imitation of their super-secret ultra powerful physics-bending super incredible ultimate battery boost circuit.  :-DD :-DD :-DD
 :bullshit: :bullshit:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on August 16, 2016, 01:50:11 am

Quote from: rrinker on August 15, 2016, 09:44:17 pm

... their super-secret ultra powerful physics-bending super incredible ultimate battery boost circuit.

This is what Marketing does when it finds any wisp of a selling point.

As I understand it, the claim was that they just made it small.


... but how are we going on dates?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 16, 2016, 03:28:15 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 05, 2016, 05:42:39 pm

It's a bluff. They're not going to ship anything, they just want to use Energiser as a way out.

But this time they used fairly definite language and gaves dates. They could have not done that and been much more vague like they always have, or simply remained silent as everyone had forgotten about it all. So I think there is a very good chance they will ship something now.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on August 16, 2016, 03:31:01 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 16, 2016, 03:28:15 am

So I think there is a very good chance they will ship something now.

Is there any online betting place where we could make bets on this?   I would bet no.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on August 16, 2016, 04:15:38 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 16, 2016, 03:28:15 am

Quote from: Fungus on August 05, 2016, 05:42:39 pm

It's a bluff. They're not going to ship anything, they just want to use Energiser as a way out.

But this time they used fairly definite language and gaves dates. They could have not done that and been much more vague like they always have, or simply remained silent as everyone had forgotten about it all. So I think there is a very good chance they will ship something now.

While we all would like to get something in hand to assess ... there is another possibility that comes to mind....

They are making all the right noises for expectations to rise and anticipation to grow - but this could be a big build-up so when they play their 'disaster' scenario (possibly inferring a 'Big Battering', but something well planned out) there will be outrage from the fanboys that will drown out the skeptics saying 'We told you so.".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on August 16, 2016, 04:32:05 am

Quote from: Brumby on August 16, 2016, 04:15:38 am

play their 'disaster' scenario

this is what I expect, too bad no betting.  Just think of the online gambling Dave could set up on this one.  I do not know the Australian gambling laws.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on August 16, 2016, 05:24:39 am

I don't know any details of the NSW gambling laws (I believe it's a state jurisdiction) - but by general observation, I think they are not something you would casually flirt with, especially if there is a monetary prize.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on August 16, 2016, 06:58:20 am

Quote from: Brumby on August 16, 2016, 05:24:39 am

I don't know any details of the NSW gambling laws (I believe it's a state jurisdiction) - but by general observation, I think they are not something you would casually flirt with, especially if there is a monetary prize.

How about an used scope prize hint hint

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on August 16, 2016, 08:31:48 am

Hmmm....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 16, 2016, 10:29:51 am

Dr Roohpavar's Linkedin claims he's still professor at "California State University East Bay"
They still didn't kick him out? Or is that a scam university that offers you a degree for 150 dollar?

Somebody here actually knows that university?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JoeO on August 16, 2016, 10:41:54 am

Quote from: Galenbo on August 16, 2016, 10:29:51 am

Dr Roohpavar's Linkedin claims he's still professor at "California State University East Bay"
They still didn't kick him out? Or is that a scam university that offers you a degree for 150 dollar?

Somebody here actually knows that university?

Here is their website.
http://www.csueastbay.edu/ (http://www.csueastbay.edu/)

I can't find him by doing a search for his name.  He is probably gone.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FloFo on August 16, 2016, 12:25:54 pm

a quick google search reveals:
http://www.csueastbay.edu/csci/departments/cs/faculty/info.html (http://www.csueastbay.edu/csci/departments/cs/faculty/info.html)
http://www.csueastbay.edu/directory/profiles/cs/roohparvarfarzan.html (http://www.csueastbay.edu/directory/profiles/cs/roohparvarfarzan.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on August 16, 2016, 09:24:20 pm

Quote from: FloFo on August 16, 2016, 12:25:54 pm

a quick google search reveals:
http://www.csueastbay.edu/csci/departments/cs/faculty/info.html (http://www.csueastbay.edu/csci/departments/cs/faculty/info.html)
http://www.csueastbay.edu/directory/profiles/cs/roohparvarfarzan.html (http://www.csueastbay.edu/directory/profiles/cs/roohparvarfarzan.html)

Not teaching now, probably because he is in China working on the "thing"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 17, 2016, 05:23:57 pm

Unbelievable the guy is still on their listings.
Somebody knows the general reputation of that university?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 18, 2016, 09:33:45 am

Looks like his University e-mail address is still valid:

MX record about csueastbay.edu exists.
Connection succeeded to mx2.csueastbay.iphmx.com SMTP.
220 esa1.csueastbay.iphmx.com ESMTP

> HELO **Suppressed**
250 esa1.csueastbay.iphmx.com

> MAIL FROM: <**Suppressed**>
=250 sender <**Suppressed**> ok

> RCPT TO: <farzan.roohparvar@csueastbay.edu>
=250 recipient <farzan.roohparvar@csueastbay.edu> ok

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on August 18, 2016, 03:27:55 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on August 18, 2016, 09:33:45 am

Looks like his University e-mail address is still valid:

MX record about csueastbay.edu exists.
Connection succeeded to mx2.csueastbay.iphmx.com SMTP.
220 esa1.csueastbay.iphmx.com ESMTP

> HELO **Suppressed**
250 esa1.csueastbay.iphmx.com

> MAIL FROM: <**Suppressed**>
=250 sender <**Suppressed**> ok

> RCPT TO: <farzan.roohparvar@csueastbay.edu>
=250 recipient <farzan.roohparvar@csueastbay.edu> ok

You can't be certain about that until you actually send a complete email. Quite a lot of SMTP servers are nowadays configured to always say OK at that stage even if the address isn't valid to prevent using that as a mechanism for scanning for valid email addresses to build spam address lists from.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on August 18, 2016, 04:10:43 pm

Quote from: Galenbo on August 17, 2016, 05:23:57 pm

Somebody knows the general reputation of that university?

http://www.forbes.com/colleges/california-state-university-east-bay/ (http://www.forbes.com/colleges/california-state-university-east-bay/)

#465 Top Colleges
#153 in Public Colleges
#89 in the West

There are some other info inside the article and the section "Profile & News".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: grumpydoc on August 18, 2016, 07:11:33 pm

Quote from: Cerebus on August 18, 2016, 03:27:55 pm

You can't be certain about that until you actually send a complete email. Quite a lot of SMTP servers are nowadays configured to always say OK at that stage even if the address isn't valid to prevent using that as a mechanism for scanning for valid email addresses to build spam address lists from.

A lot of SMTP servers say OK to anything during the RCPT TO: phase because they aren't in a position to validate the user name/mailbox portion anyway, because they are not the system which will do local delivery.

I must admit I have the system which does local delivery for my domains set up to reject invalid user/mailbox names during "RCPT TO:". I found that I was getting tons of email to random user names but not in a pattern which suggests attempts to scan my user name space - in fact I have never seen anything which looks like an attempt to do that. Some are totally random but with repeated attempts over and over with the same user name. Some look like someone has merged a dictionary with a list of hosts, some look like someone has taken a spam email address list and tried every permutation of user name and host name. At least this one sort of makes sense as an individual might have the same user/mailbox name with multiple servers.

By rejecting undeliverable email as soon as possible I avoid the cost of running it through the spam and virus checkers and I leave the system sending it to me with the problem of trying to bounce to the sender (which is probably forged anyway). So I waste less CPU and generate less backscatter.

Works for me.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 18, 2016, 10:11:05 pm

Quote from: Cerebus on August 18, 2016, 03:27:55 pm

You can't be certain about that until you actually send a complete email. Quite a lot of SMTP servers are nowadays configured to always say OK at that stage even if the address isn't valid to prevent using that as a mechanism for scanning for valid email addresses to build spam address lists from.

I'm aware of this, which is why I also sent a message to it from a temporary e-mail address. It didn't bounce. Probably should have mentioned it.

Of course this doesn't mean that he still works there (but probably a good chance he does). His e-mail could just redirect to someone else. We used to do it all the time with users who left my previous company, just in case we missed something important.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: R005T3r on August 28, 2016, 08:48:53 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 05, 2016, 12:47:21 am

Quote from: rich on August 04, 2016, 04:27:40 pm

We never believed Batteroo had manufactured many units so when they say they're going to ship some of their existing Batteriser branded inventory, I assume they mean all of it or all they can within a certain timeframe (see below).
I've just read the filing from Energizer's lawsuit where they are seeking damages. It is interesting reading. They deny they ever sought to stop batteroo from shipping existing inventory :popcorn:
Highlights for me were:

• During the trademark negotiations, Energizer offered a 6 month phase out period so existing inventory wouldn't get scrapped.
• Energiser’s Opposition sought only denial of Batteroo’s trademark applications and could not have resulted in an injunction against sales of BATTERISER products.
• Batteroo agreed to send Energizer a sample unit after it shipped to consumers, expected March 2016. It has not yet shipped one to them.
  
• Energizer quotes bateroo Facebook post as deceptively claiming Energizer was blocking shipping.
• Repeated claims that Batteroo was not ready to ship throughout the entire trademark negotiation process.

Choice quotes:

Quote from: Energizer

46. On information and belief, Batteroo still did not have a viable production run of its
product prior to or during the Opposition proceeding. Batteroo recently sent an email message to customers, notifying them that Batteroo would be changing the name of the BATTERISER product as a result of the Opposition filed by Energizer. In the message, Batteroo attempted to use Energizer’s Opposition as an excuse for further delays, falsely implying that Energizer was responsible for Batteroo’s product delays. The message also falsely implies that Energizer prohibited distribution of already manufactured goods.

This is certainly  :popcorn: worthy!
Batteroo are playing with fire and they'll get burned. I wouldn't piss off Energizer.

Quote

The whole Energizer document reads like this thread, but written in legal english. I wonder if this thread was a handy chronology for their lawyers.
Edit to add: The pdf is at http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/307r4n75a/missouri-eastern-district-court/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/ (http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/307r4n75a/missouri-eastern-district-court/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/)

No doubt they are reading this thread. Imagine the lawyer hours just reading this massive thread for evidence. It'd be in the tens of thousands of dollars.

If I would them I woudn't have brought in a shipwreck a university professor from a reputable university! To get discredited by the scientific community IS much worse to get an argument with you...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on August 29, 2016, 01:05:56 pm

Does anyone have their batterooizer yet? we must be getting close to their 4-6 weeks delivery time they promised

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on August 29, 2016, 01:20:41 pm

Yes, almost time for the next excuse.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on August 30, 2016, 09:02:09 pm

Well, 27 days ago they estimated 4 to 8 weeks for indigo/pre-orders shipments to happen - so they have an upper bound of 29th September before they need to ship to customer or find a new delay story.

They also said by Aug 22nd they will begin shipping TO their distribution centres. No fanfare update to say that ever happened. However, on Aug 22nd they tweeted photos of the Frost & Sullivan 2015 award ceremony instead!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on August 30, 2016, 10:02:07 pm

Excuse sweepstake time then!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 31, 2016, 08:21:26 pm

I can't wait to see the first one shipped!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ruffy91 on August 31, 2016, 09:24:32 pm

Quote from: Godzil on August 31, 2016, 08:21:26 pm

I can't wait to see the first one shipped!

Can't wait too. I'm not living long enough.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 31, 2016, 11:03:04 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on August 29, 2016, 01:05:56 pm

Does anyone have their batterooizer yet?

Nope, and that's the thing.
They promised those media test kit versions eon's ago, and have not shipped a single one. If they were the least bit serious about repairing their shattered reputation, and actually believed in their product, then they would have shipped those as a priority. They could have instructed the media not to show or mention the Batteriser name.
Heck, they could have engaged me and other critical bloggers directly and offered one to test under those conditions. If the results were good then that would turn them into hero's overnight.

Also, they promised eons ago to release technical data and test results, and of course they to this day have not released a single thing except for the doctored GPS test which has been proved was a sham.

Because of all this you can almost be certain that they know their product does not perform as claimed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on August 31, 2016, 11:18:15 pm

Quote from: Godzil on August 31, 2016, 08:21:26 pm

I can't wait to see the first one shipped!

You will get moon rocks first.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 01, 2016, 10:02:32 am

As comment on IGG says: Batterpoo!!!  :horse:

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 01, 2016, 10:39:44 am

And the first thing that will be done by someone no doubt if the product ever ships is to finally blow this ridiculous UL report out of the water:
http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_ULReport_GPSDevice.pdf (http://batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Batteriser_ULReport_GPSDevice.pdf)

I know it's already been done, but it will be sweet to watch it on the real product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on September 01, 2016, 10:42:13 am

And the poo brothers are singing to each other... "Sticks and stones..."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 01, 2016, 10:42:34 am

Hey, when did Batteriser change the Youtube "fan" page to "Batteriser Official" ?
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEhORLPHDXF7laO-yeoZFIA (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEhORLPHDXF7laO-yeoZFIA)

And comments have been disabled on all videos.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on September 01, 2016, 10:52:36 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 01, 2016, 10:42:34 am

And comments have been disabled on all videos.

No surprise there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 01, 2016, 11:13:00 am

Here's some interesting news:
All references to the "Batteriser" moniker have been removed from their website:
http://www.changedetection.com/log/batteriser/index_log2.html (http://www.changedetection.com/log/batteriser/index_log2.html)
It's been completely replaced with "Batteroo" now.
Even the image of the sleeve now has "Batteroo" etched/cutout/(photoshopped?) onto it instead of Batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 01, 2016, 11:33:16 am

Quote from: samgab on September 01, 2016, 11:13:00 am

Here's some interesting news:

That's not news, they were forced to do this because they lost their trademark on the name, it was in their last update.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 01, 2016, 12:03:55 pm

Yes, but they only just changed the website, removing the name today, finally!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 01, 2016, 12:19:36 pm

Quote from: samgab on September 01, 2016, 12:03:55 pm

Yes, but they only just changed the website, removing the name today, finally!

Oh, ok.
They'd better change their official Youtube channel!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on September 01, 2016, 04:55:26 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 01, 2016, 10:42:34 am

Hey, when did Batteriser change the Youtube "fan" page to "Batteriser Official" ?
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEhORLPHDXF7laO-yeoZFIA (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEhORLPHDXF7laO-yeoZFIA)

And comments have been disabled on all videos.

It's not a change, the fan page still exists:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A)

However they did delete their 'goBatteriser' Twitter account and created a new 'goBatteroo' one.
Seems like they are converting at the slowest possible rate. For instance on their website the frontpage is now all about batteroo, but once you click 'pre-order' it's Batteriser again.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on September 01, 2016, 07:36:49 pm

Hmm, Energizer® gave Batteriser a beatdown but what about the bovine sourced fertilizer brand Cattlepoo® ??? The Batteroo brothers really have a lot of shit on their plate.  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 01, 2016, 09:46:36 pm

They just forget one thing:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=252557)

 :-DD

(look at the bottom of the new batteroo dot co website)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 01, 2016, 10:20:37 pm

Quote from: PeterL on September 01, 2016, 04:55:26 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 01, 2016, 10:42:34 am

Hey, when did Batteriser change the Youtube "fan" page to "Batteriser Official" ?
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEhORLPHDXF7laO-yeoZFIA (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEhORLPHDXF7laO-yeoZFIA)

And comments have been disabled on all videos.

It's not a change, the fan page still exists:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A)

Ah, interesting.
I wonder how they got all those views so quickly?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 01, 2016, 10:48:22 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 01, 2016, 10:20:37 pm

Ah, interesting.
I wonder how they got all those views so quickly?

Vietnamese botnets.  :bullshit:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 01, 2016, 10:55:15 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 01, 2016, 10:20:37 pm

Ah, interesting.
I wonder how they got all those views so quickly?

eevblog members  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on September 02, 2016, 05:46:37 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 01, 2016, 10:20:37 pm

Quote from: PeterL on September 01, 2016, 04:55:26 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 01, 2016, 10:42:34 am

Hey, when did Batteriser change the Youtube "fan" page to "Batteriser Official" ?
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEhORLPHDXF7laO-yeoZFIA (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEhORLPHDXF7laO-yeoZFIA)

And comments have been disabled on all videos.

It's not a change, the fan page still exists:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFr9QYi8Yq2ckWYPx_Vui8A)

Ah, interesting.
I wonder how they got all those views so quickly?

Looks like the created this channel right after the igg campaign ended.
They have 6 video's, all posted 10 months ago.
Nr of views per video atm: 5566 to 6471 -> fabricated?
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEhORLPHDXF7laO-yeoZFIA/videos (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEhORLPHDXF7laO-yeoZFIA/videos)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on September 02, 2016, 09:47:43 am

No way.
They don't do that.

They used a Butteriser to upload the videos for 800% more views.  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 02, 2016, 07:04:21 pm

Quote from: ez24 on September 01, 2016, 10:55:15 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 01, 2016, 10:20:37 pm

Ah, interesting.
I wonder how they got all those views so quickly?

eevblog members  :-DD

You mean there are 800% more EEVblog members than Batteratruc users?

Hummm sounds legit :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on September 07, 2016, 06:02:13 pm

Surely these should have arrived by now?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Faith on September 08, 2016, 03:09:59 am

Quote from: quad on September 07, 2016, 06:02:13 pm

Surely these should have arrived by now?

LOL.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2016, 06:13:46 am

Quote from: quad on September 07, 2016, 06:02:13 pm

Surely these should have arrived by now?

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7026/6843642283_9be6141119.jpg

(sorry, couldn't resist...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on September 08, 2016, 06:14:47 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 08, 2016, 06:13:46 am

(sorry, couldn't resist...)

Made me look ....   ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 08, 2016, 06:26:24 am

Quote from: Brumby on September 08, 2016, 06:14:47 am

Quote from: Fungus on September 08, 2016, 06:13:46 am

(sorry, couldn't resist...)

Made me look ....   ;D

Oh, I forgot the "img" tags...  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on September 08, 2016, 12:34:48 pm

and here I was thinking you had received 800% more batterooizers than you previously had, or were expecting

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 08, 2016, 09:48:15 pm

Oh but you are right, it was to be shipped on the 22/08/2016 ! The world should now be flooded with 800% more Love!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on September 10, 2016, 09:18:16 am

Drums fingernails on desk. Raises one eyebrow...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 10, 2016, 10:13:14 am

Quote

We are happy to announce that by August 22nd, we will begin shipping Batteroo sleeves to our distribution centers in the US and around the world! Consequently, based on input from our logistics company, we expect shipments to our Indiegogo and pre-order customers to happen within four to eight weeks.

Those distribution centres must be chock-o-block now!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on September 10, 2016, 06:37:34 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 10, 2016, 10:13:14 am

Quote

We are happy to announce that by August 22nd, we will begin shipping Batteroo sleeves to our distribution centers in the US and around the world! Consequently, based on input from our logistics company, we expect shipments to our Indiegogo and pre-order customers to happen within four to eight weeks.

Those distribution centres must be chock-o-block now!

Same DC as used for vapourware right?

Have they also gotten those stocks of flying cars, personal Mr Fusion and Thinking machines in stock as well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: forrestc on September 10, 2016, 11:28:42 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on September 08, 2016, 12:34:48 pm

and here I was thinking you had received 800% more batterooizers than you previously had, or were expecting

800% of zero is still zero.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on September 11, 2016, 02:34:23 am

Quote from: SeanB on September 10, 2016, 06:37:34 pm

Have they also gotten those stocks of flying cars, personal Mr Fusion and Thinking machines in stock as well.

Flying cars and thinking machines aren't on my list of stuff to get. 

Mr Fusion is, though.  I'm betting I will be able to have one of those before the Batteroozzer-iser-izza-whatchtamacallit surfaces.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on September 11, 2016, 08:16:16 am

Quote from: Brumby on September 11, 2016, 02:34:23 am

Quote from: SeanB on September 10, 2016, 06:37:34 pm

Have they also gotten those stocks of flying cars, personal Mr Fusion and Thinking machines in stock as well.

Flying cars and thinking machines aren't on my list of stuff to get. 

Mr Fusion is, though.  I'm betting I will be able to have one of those before the Batteroozzer-iser-izza-whatchtamacallit surfaces.

I am thinking a set of Eternity Perpetuity generators is more likely to arrive before Batterwhatever ships though.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on September 11, 2016, 08:29:26 am

If I was a backer I would post that I received my perk. :P :P ::P

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on September 11, 2016, 08:38:03 am

Quote from: SeanB on September 11, 2016, 08:16:16 am

Quote from: Brumby on September 11, 2016, 02:34:23 am

Quote from: SeanB on September 10, 2016, 06:37:34 pm

Have they also gotten those stocks of flying cars, personal Mr Fusion and Thinking machines in stock as well.

Flying cars and thinking machines aren't on my list of stuff to get. 

Mr Fusion is, though.  I'm betting I will be able to have one of those before the Batteroozzer-iser-izza-whatchtamacallit surfaces.

I am thinking a set of Eternity Perpetuity generators is more likely to arrive before Batterwhatever ships though.

Hey... let's keep it real.


Fusion power from a few banana skins and half a can of flat beer is much more credible!



Ohhh... sorry ....... I forgot which thread we're on.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on September 11, 2016, 08:43:43 am

Quote from: firewalker on September 11, 2016, 08:29:26 am

If I was a backer I would post that I received my perk. :P :P ::P

If I was a backer I would probably not declare the fact in public for fear of ridicule.   :phew:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on September 11, 2016, 07:19:08 pm

Hmm.  To be honest, I really was expecting *something* to have occurred in the last couple of weeks, but nothing.  At the end of the day, this isn't a Triton style product where it's physically impossible to create.  The 'technology' to create a Batteroo exists already and it's not exactly a complicated product to manufacture.

So anyone want to take a guess as to what their excuse for their latest delay will be?  Facebook page has been silent since the 22nd August, nothing on their IGG page for over a month.  Last twitter post was on the 22nd August as well, I had a good lol at that:

Quote

Frost and Sullivan Best Practices Award presented to Bob and Frankie Roohparvar of Batteroo.

And for further lols, it appears that Frosty and Sullivan have such a cozy relationship with Ol' Bob and Frankie that they won the award last year as well (http://ww2.frost.com/files/7414/5815/2418/Batteroo_Award_Write_Up.pdf) and even got them to rename nearly all instances of Batteriser to Batteroo on this fluff piece for them.  Note the date the article was written, which I believe was before the switch to the new name:
Link (https://www.frost.com/sublib/display-market-insight.do?searchQuery=batteroo&ctxixpLink=FcmCtx3&ctxixpLabel=FcmCtx4&id=295404655&bdata=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5mcm9zdC5jb20vc3JjaC9jYXRhbG9nLXNlYXJjaC5kbz9zZWFyY2hUeXBlPXN1YiZyZF9zdWJtaXQ9R28mcXVlcnlUZXh0PWJhdHRlcm9vJnNvcnRCeT1SQH5AU2VhcmNoIFJlc3VsdHNAfkAxNDczNjIxNjI2MDA4)

p.s I googled the telephone number that's listed on their Facebook page and found that it was previously in use by another scam company, what are the odds of that?
http://800notes.com/Phone.aspx/1-844-827-6623 (http://800notes.com/Phone.aspx/1-844-827-6623)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JoeO on September 13, 2016, 01:25:04 am

They were probably shipped on a Hanjin container ship.  The company has gone bankrupt and now the ships sit at sea just waiting.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 13, 2016, 02:59:21 am

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on September 11, 2016, 07:19:08 pm

Hmm.  To be honest, I really was expecting *something* to have occurred in the last couple of weeks, but nothing.  At the end of the day, this isn't a Triton style product where it's physically impossible to create.  The 'technology' to create a Batteroo exists already and it's not exactly a complicated product to manufacture.

Yes, and they have had test units for a long long time now and were ready to ship at to media for testing at one point. That was the 500mA version IIRC, and then suddenly they said that wasn't good enough, scrap all those and start again etc. No one has ever actually got their hand on one for testing apart from a Yahoo reporter who was able to play with one for 5 minutes.
They could have easily shipped the 500mA units they claimed they had ready to go.

Quote

So anyone want to take a guess as to what their excuse for their latest delay will be?

I think I've given up guessing now  :=\

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 13, 2016, 03:01:03 am

Quote from: JoeO on September 13, 2016, 01:25:04 am

They were probably shipped on a Hanjin container ship.  The company has gone bankrupt and now the ships sit at sea just waiting.

Wow, that seems serious:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/billions-in-cargo-remains-stranded-at-sea-1473285117 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/billions-in-cargo-remains-stranded-at-sea-1473285117)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on September 13, 2016, 04:57:05 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 13, 2016, 03:01:03 am

Quote from: JoeO on September 13, 2016, 01:25:04 am

They were probably shipped on a Hanjin container ship.  The company has gone bankrupt and now the ships sit at sea just waiting.

Wow, that seems serious:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/billions-in-cargo-remains-stranded-at-sea-1473285117 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/billions-in-cargo-remains-stranded-at-sea-1473285117)

Official batteroo statement in 3... 2... 1... ;)
They are reading this thread so they will probably use this as their next excuse. This could also be their exit strategy.
The goods are unrecoverable and no more money to produce new products.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on September 13, 2016, 05:09:34 am

Quote from: meeder on September 13, 2016, 04:57:05 am

....The goods are unrecoverable ...

Someone would recover them eventually.  It's going to be like those Nintendo Atari cartridges in the land fill.  Goes from worthless to priceless!

Edit... What self respecting nerd could possibly screw that up?!?!?.. Oh that's right.  Nerds don't have self-respect :(

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on September 13, 2016, 09:39:47 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 13, 2016, 03:01:03 am

Quote from: JoeO on September 13, 2016, 01:25:04 am

They were probably shipped on a Hanjin container ship.  The company has gone bankrupt and now the ships sit at sea just waiting.

Wow, that seems serious:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/billions-in-cargo-remains-stranded-at-sea-1473285117 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/billions-in-cargo-remains-stranded-at-sea-1473285117)

Seems to be unloading now though:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-10/hanjin-ship-expected-to-start-unloading-at-long-beach-saturday (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-10/hanjin-ship-expected-to-start-unloading-at-long-beach-saturday)

So only good enough for a partial delay excuse then. (lol)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on September 13, 2016, 12:49:14 pm

And another container ship: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-hanjin-shipping-debt-usa-ports-idUSKCN11I03B (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-hanjin-shipping-debt-usa-ports-idUSKCN11I03B)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on September 13, 2016, 06:30:25 pm

Quote from: Smokey on September 13, 2016, 05:09:34 am

Someone would recover them eventually.  It's going to be like those Nintendo cartridges in the land fill.  Goes from worthless to priceless!

/pedantic mode on

It was actually Atari carts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_video_game_burial), not Nintendo carts.  The NES hadn't been launched in the US at that point (it had been out in Japan since July 1983, but didn't get released in NA until 1985).  Although interestingly, Atari were working with Nintendo to release the NES in NA, but the deal fell through after Atari saw one of Nintendos licenses being demonstrated on the Colecovision, one of Ataris rivals.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on September 15, 2016, 12:46:27 am

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on September 11, 2016, 07:19:08 pm

So anyone want to take a guess as to what their excuse for their latest delay will be?

Technically they are still within their time window and have until the end of sept to make good on their earlier 4-8 week estimate for shipping to backers. But yeah, the radio silence suggests they are not even at the distribution centres.

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on September 11, 2016, 07:19:08 pm

  Facebook page has been silent since the 22nd August, nothing on their IGG page for over a month.  Last twitter post was on the 22nd August as well, I had a good lol at that:

Quote

Frost and Sullivan Best Practices Award presented to Bob and Frankie Roohparvar of Batteroo.

And for further lols, it appears that Frosty and Sullivan have such a cozy relationship with Ol' Bob and Frankie that they won the award last year as well (http://ww2.frost.com/files/7414/5815/2418/Batteroo_Award_Write_Up.pdf) and even got them to rename nearly all instances of Batteriser to Batteroo on this fluff piece for them. 

Take a careful look at the pictures on twitter, you'll see they're holding the 2015 award! They probably don't have enough cash left to buy the 2016 award. The F&S write up always referenced Batteroo as that has always been their company name.

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on September 11, 2016, 07:19:08 pm

p.s I googled the telephone number that's listed on their Facebook page and found that it was previously in use by another scam company, what are the odds of that?
http://800notes.com/Phone.aspx/1-844-827-6623 (http://800notes.com/Phone.aspx/1-844-827-6623)

Sorry to break it to you, that isn't the phone number currently listed on their Facebook page.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on September 15, 2016, 04:42:05 pm

Quote from: rich on September 15, 2016, 12:46:27 am

Take a careful look at the pictures on twitter, you'll see they're holding the 2015 award!

Hah, I didn't notice that.  That would explain why I couldn't find Batteroo on this page (http://ww2.frost.com/event/calendar/north-american-best-practices-awards-gala-ca-2/write-ups-company-ads-profiles/).  I suppose I shouldn't be so surprised, it's not the first time they've used an old photo to try and fake recent company activity.  Still, if someone is one twitter they should drop them a mention that it's "You're Welcome":
(http://i.imgur.com/Eq9Aeze.png)

Quote

Sorry to break it to you, that isn't the phone number currently listed on their Facebook page.

Ah yes, my mistake.  I googled the correct number (-6673) and didn't notice the result returned was for a different number (-6623)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 17, 2016, 03:12:26 pm

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on September 15, 2016, 04:42:05 pm

Quote from: rich on September 15, 2016, 12:46:27 am

Take a careful look at the pictures on twitter, you'll see they're holding the 2015 award!

Hah, I didn't notice that.  That would explain why I couldn't find Batteroo on this page (http://ww2.frost.com/event/calendar/north-american-best-practices-awards-gala-ca-2/write-ups-company-ads-profiles/).  I suppose I shouldn't be so surprised, it's not the first time they've used an old photo to try and fake recent company activity.  Still, if someone is one twitter they should drop them a mention that it's "You're Welcome":
(http://i.imgur.com/Eq9Aeze.png)

At least they didn't steal my welcome :o

Edit: it seems that they really where there at that pedntic show of the 15 march 2016:

http://showcase.frost.com/Awards/Best-Practices-San-Diego-March/i-VL3GtHv (http://showcase.frost.com/Awards/Best-Practices-San-Diego-March/i-VL3GtHv)

But not to have an award, just to "discuss" about the nice award they had last year.

And: http://showcase.frost.com/Awards/Best-Practices-San-Diego-March/i-r6gW39k (http://showcase.frost.com/Awards/Best-Practices-San-Diego-March/i-r6gW39k)

I don't even know how this guy manage to be in the middle of the front row, which is the most important "seat" on such photo.

That the sort of "party" I would be sick to be invited to.  :--

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 17, 2016, 06:04:59 pm

Quote from: Godzil on September 17, 2016, 03:12:26 pm

http://showcase.frost.com/Awards/Best-Practices-San-Diego-March/i-VL3GtHv (http://showcase.frost.com/Awards/Best-Practices-San-Diego-March/i-VL3GtHv)

http://showcase.frost.com/Awards/Best-Practices-San-Diego-March/i-r6gW39k (http://showcase.frost.com/Awards/Best-Practices-San-Diego-March/i-r6gW39k)

I wonder if San Diego is the best place for "awards".  I was sitting in a friends real estate office (in San Diego) when I spotted an impressive Real Estate Agent Award plague on his wall, so I asked him how he got it.  He said a salesman came into his office and sold it to him for $85.  So people buy awards, so they mean nothing. 

I imagine the best practice award cost more.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on September 17, 2016, 06:48:57 pm

@ez24 - They even give you 2 for the price of 1  ;)  >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on September 17, 2016, 11:38:28 pm

I suspect that their office walls are plastered with all sorts of self indulgent awards and certificates from questionable associations, if this was the case then you would have to be a pretty sick puppy indeed.   ::) :-X

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 17, 2016, 11:44:01 pm

Our good mate Bob looking sharp at the awards for his excellence in producing and shipping the world's.... oh, wait....
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Awards/Best-Practices-San-Diego-March/i-r6gW39k/0/X2/BDI-0373-X2.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 17, 2016, 11:46:22 pm

Quote from: dcac on September 13, 2016, 09:39:47 am

Seems to be unloading now though:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-10/hanjin-ship-expected-to-start-unloading-at-long-beach-saturday (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-10/hanjin-ship-expected-to-start-unloading-at-long-beach-saturday)

I thought hundreds of ships were caught up in this?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 18, 2016, 12:41:03 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2016, 11:44:01 pm

Our good mate Bob looking sharp at the awards for his excellence in producing and shipping the world's.... oh, wait....
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Awards/Best-Practices-San-Diego-March/i-r6gW39k/0/X2/BDI-0373-X2.jpg)

I once bumped into a rigged photo session, it was a live restaurant review show for TV.  All the customers were paid actors (I was meeting one of them).   I was shocked that I ended up in the middle of them (at first I did not know who they were), but the camera was not on. 

There is a group of actors here in San Diego (and I am sure in every large city) that act like customers or participants for a small sum for a video or photo shoot.  They just sit or stand.   Now I wished I knew who they are so I could get in on it.  Actually one of the women in the back looks like the woman I met.

Here is what I think.  The ones in the back are paid.  Those in front (10 of them) rotated so each one was in the center and for their photo.  It is possible those in front did not even know that those behind them were paid.  They are just paying for an award (the costs involved in hosting it - ha ha) and getting photos.

When it comes to making money, some people are very clever.



 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: H.O on September 18, 2016, 08:51:45 am

I'm certainly no fashion snob, that's for sure but geez, where do these people get their clothes? Everybody seems to be wearing trousers that are two sizes too big for them. Perhaps they ARE real engineers (and without a better half dressing them) and not businessmen, at least the latter tends to know what a proper suit looks like.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on September 18, 2016, 09:14:25 am

Quote from: H.O on September 18, 2016, 08:51:45 am

at least the latter tends to know what a proper suit looks like.

They're businessmen who have to buy awards, so obviously they're not successful ones.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amirm on September 18, 2016, 02:54:55 pm

One possibility for that award may be that they hired Frost and Sullivan to do market research for them for the product and in exchange they were promised this award (among many other companies).  Here is an "interview" which reads like Questions submitted in advance which they filled out: https://www.frost.com/sublib/display-market-insight.do?id=295404655 (https://www.frost.com/sublib/display-market-insight.do?id=295404655)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on September 18, 2016, 06:10:56 pm

You will all be pleased to learn that Keysight have earned the oh so prestigious "Global Calibration & Repair Services Competitive Strategy Innovation & Leadership Award" from none other than Frost & Sullivan: https://twitter.com/keysight/status/775731706594676736

I am sure Frost must be a shoe-in for the "Global Leadership in Best Practices in Awarding Awards for Best Practices in Bestest Strategy Innovation Leadership & Cat Husbandry" award by now...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on September 18, 2016, 06:22:42 pm

It seems things got a little awkward this year with two SD-WAN companies "nominated":

.@versanetworks accepts the 2016 SD-WAN Solution Entrepreneurial Company of the Year Award #FrostAwards

.@Velocloud is honored with the 2016 North American SD-WAN Solution Product Leadership Award #FrostAwards

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 19, 2016, 04:10:26 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2016, 11:44:01 pm

Our good mate Bob looking sharp at the awards for his excellence in producing and shipping the world's.... oh, wait....

Isn't that his brother next to him as well? The one with the "dodgy used car salesman" smile?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 19, 2016, 04:43:21 am

Quote from: Halcyon on September 19, 2016, 04:10:26 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 17, 2016, 11:44:01 pm

Our good mate Bob looking sharp at the awards for his excellence in producing and shipping the world's.... oh, wait....

Isn't that his brother next to him as well? The one with the "dodgy used car salesman" smile?

Yeah, that's Frankie Goes To Hollywood... to sell used cars and Batteroosters.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on September 19, 2016, 03:53:22 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on September 19, 2016, 04:10:26 am

Isn't that his brother next to him as well? The one with the "dodgy used car salesman" smile?

'"dodgy used car salesman" smile' is a pretty poor diagnostic for selecting someone from that particular crowd.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on September 19, 2016, 04:02:35 pm

Hi,

Please don't associate them with dodgy care salesmen. The dodgy car salesmen don't like it  :-DD

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on September 19, 2016, 08:02:53 pm

Yes, used car salesmen have heard of that word "ethics" and might have a vague understanding of what it means.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on September 19, 2016, 08:43:02 pm

At least the dodgy car salesman will deliver something that resembles a car. Can't say that about these guys.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on September 19, 2016, 08:58:00 pm

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on September 19, 2016, 08:43:02 pm

At least the dodgy car salesman will deliver something that resembles a car. Can't say that about these guys.

These guys can deliver bullshit

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 19, 2016, 11:17:05 pm

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on September 19, 2016, 08:43:02 pm

At least the dodgy car salesman will deliver something that resembles a car. Can't say that about these guys.

Indeed.

Even the dodgiest of second-hand car salesmen would actually give you a shit-heap of a car for your money, rather than sweet-FA.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on September 20, 2016, 08:41:51 am

I'm convinced that I'm not going to get into trouble off the Roohparvar's because they seem to be pissing all the backers' money up the wall on meaningless awards and dinners, so here goes...

It seems to me, good old Bob there (click to enlarge), is talking through his teeth... perhaps something like "Psst...Do you think those backers are onto us yet?" with Frankie replying "Just shut up and smile, those morons don't suspect a thing!"

Or maybe... Bob: "What's our make-believe product called again?", Frankie: "Shhh... We're taking the money and we're doing a runner!"

I'm no good at drawing but I'm pretty sure someone could make a comic book based on those two comedians.

Also, no one told poor Bob that you generally don't wear a black shirt and terrible tie to a black-tie event, although I suspect that because that was a bullshit nonsense event "Excellence in Best Practices Awards Gala" that it was OK to let that one slide. Even old-mate down the end there seems to be a bit over it and decided to catch a little shut-eye.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on September 20, 2016, 06:50:48 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on September 20, 2016, 08:41:51 am

Also, no one told poor Bob that you generally don't wear a black shirt and terrible tie to a black-tie event, although I suspect that because that was a bullshit nonsense event "Excellence in Best Practices Awards Gala" that it was OK to let that one slide. Even old-mate down the end there seems to be a bit over it and decided to catch a little shut-eye.

That may explain why they put him in the middle, because if he were to be on a side the photo balance would have been weird, all of that because of stupid shirt and tie :o

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 20, 2016, 09:52:24 pm

"Excellence in Best Practices Awards" - these bullshit awards sound just like Homer Simpon's "Outstanding achievement in the field of excellence award".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 21, 2016, 12:49:43 pm

Shill or just true believer?

(http://i.imgur.com/EAmbejB.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on September 21, 2016, 12:53:45 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 21, 2016, 12:49:43 pm

Shill or just true believer?

Misguided true believer with no understanding on what has been going on

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 21, 2016, 12:55:44 pm

Paid shill, obviously.

No real person gets that passionate about a $10 pack of widgets...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 21, 2016, 12:59:57 pm

EDIT-----------

Removed to avoid accusing an innocent weirdo of supporting the BatterBros...

-------------------

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on September 21, 2016, 01:51:31 pm

Quote from: Delta on September 21, 2016, 12:55:44 pm

Paid shill, obviously.

No real person gets that passionate about a $10 pack of widgets...

Not necessarily.  There are several groups of people that would....

* True believers
* Conspiracy theorists
* Those who champion causes on principle

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 21, 2016, 02:03:26 pm

Quote from: Delta on September 21, 2016, 12:59:57 pm

Although looking at Spence's own campaigns, one could relate to Batteroo's backers and the other to the BatterBros themselves!  :-DD

That seems to be a different person. The linked person is:
https://www.indiegogo.com/individuals/3119675/campaigns (https://www.indiegogo.com/individuals/3119675/campaigns)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on September 21, 2016, 02:33:32 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 21, 2016, 02:03:26 pm

Quote from: Delta on September 21, 2016, 12:59:57 pm

Although looking at Spence's own campaigns, one could relate to Batteroo's backers and the other to the BatterBros themselves!  :-DD

That seems to be a different person. The linked person is:
https://www.indiegogo.com/individuals/3119675/campaigns (https://www.indiegogo.com/individuals/3119675/campaigns)

My mistake, sorry!  I've removed my scandalous insinuation!  :phew:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on September 21, 2016, 03:46:05 pm

Quote from: Brumby on September 21, 2016, 01:51:31 pm

Quote from: Delta on September 21, 2016, 12:55:44 pm

Paid shill, obviously.

No real person gets that passionate about a $10 pack of widgets...

Not necessarily.  There are several groups of people that would....

* True believers
* Conspiracy theorists
* Those who champion causes on principle

* Me, when presented with a $10 bar of chocolate.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 21, 2016, 05:29:10 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 21, 2016, 12:49:43 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/EAmbejB.png)

They could make all doubts go away just by posting a couple of photos of the production line, maybe a box of Batterisers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Neilm on September 21, 2016, 07:06:18 pm

Quote from: Fungus on September 21, 2016, 05:29:10 pm

They could make all doubts go away just by posting a couple of photos of the production line, maybe a box of Batterisers.

They could send a couple to Dave. if they did everything they claimed it would a very interesting video. Almost as interesting as if it didn't

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cyberdragon on September 25, 2016, 03:26:32 pm

Dear Batteroo,

Allow me to provide the instructions for your Batterizer product line. They are as follows...

WARNING: Batterizer must be operated in a well vented and non-flammable area!

1. Solder a piece of at least 20 gauge wire to the negative terminal of the Batterizer
2. Solder the other end to the positive output terminal of the Batterizer
3. Install lithium cell of appropriate type
4. You run! You run so far away!
5. :bullshit: will now be destroyed

Voltamort rules! >:D

EDIT: up next "The Battle of Batteroo: the Skit" get your :popcorn: ready

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on September 26, 2016, 06:58:48 pm

Well, the last week of September is upon us and surprise, surprise...  Déjà vu!...

Batteroo are quickly running out of time to get those all-important stocking-stuffer gifts out to the public for the 2015 2016 Christmas season....

:palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2016, 07:04:51 pm

They've told so many lies now that it's obvious they're never going to ship anything.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on September 26, 2016, 10:09:32 pm

Executive Chairman of the Board of Directors
Batteroo Corporation
July 2012 – Present (4 years 3 months)San Francisco Bay Area
I co-founded a new startup called Batteroo that has innovated in the area of Battery management. Batteriser, the company's current product is a micro-thin stainless sleeve that goes over a primary battery and can increase the life of the battery significantly, up to 8X.

There's nothing like self-delusion to embellish your own profile on LinkedIn.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frankie-roohparvar-b4a6b45 (https://www.linkedin.com/in/frankie-roohparvar-b4a6b45)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 26, 2016, 10:30:29 pm

Quote from: Neilm on September 21, 2016, 07:06:18 pm

They could send a couple to Dave. if they did everything they claimed it would a very interesting video. Almost as interesting as if it didn't

And that's the thing. Instead of sending out the media kits as they promised, even the 500mA version they claimed they had ready to go, I and/or other could have tested them and verified their claims, and we would have been respectful of any known current limits. Instead they chose the path of their silly response videos, their laughable updates, and slander in a national newspaper claiming I was paid by "big battery".
Engineers are pretty fair people, they would have tested it extensively and present the data to the public. Even if it got a x4 increase in a bunch of product we would have been singing it's praises from the rooftops. Heck, even double battery life on a bunch of general products would have impressed us.
Of course Batteroo also promised to publish the testing data they had but never did.

So obviously they have absolutely no faith in the claims of their product and they know the game is up if they ship a single unit. Because once a single unit makes it's way into the wild it will end up in mine or others hands who are willing to test it. They have created this gigantic profile for themselves and their claims and they ca't think of a way to save face now.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on September 27, 2016, 05:02:58 am

Quote from: EEVblog on September 26, 2016, 10:30:29 pm

Quote from: Neilm on September 21, 2016, 07:06:18 pm

They could send a couple to Dave. if they did everything they claimed it would a very interesting video. Almost as interesting as if it didn't

And that's the thing. Instead of sending out the media kits as they promised, even the 500mA version they claimed they had ready to go, I and/or other could have tested them and verified their claims, and we would have been respectful of any known current limits. Instead they chose the path of their silly response videos, their laughable updates, and slander in a national newspaper claiming I was paid by "big battery".
Engineers are pretty fair people, they would have tested it extensively and present the data to the public. Even if it got a x4 increase in a bunch of product we would have been singing it's praises from the rooftops. Heck, even double battery life on a bunch of general products would have impressed us.
Of course Batteroo also promised to publish the testing data they had but never did.

So obviously they have absolutely no faith in the claims of their product and they know the game is up if they ship a single unit. Because once a single unit makes it's way into the wild it will end up in mine or others hands who are willing to test it. They have created this gigantic profile for themselves and their claims and they ca't think of a way to save face now.

Call me an optimist, but I'm still waiting for the day I see a new Dave--eevblog-video containing extensive tests and results of a released Batteroo product. Bad, slightly bad, or totally useless; whatever the case, it'll make for an entertaining video :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on September 27, 2016, 09:28:25 am

Quote from: samgab on September 27, 2016, 05:02:58 am

Call me an optimist, but I'm still waiting for the day I see a new Dave--eevblog-video containing extensive tests and results of a released Batteroo product. Bad, slightly bad, or totally useless; whatever the case, it'll make for an entertaining video :)

Optimist.

.... but I wish you all the best.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on September 27, 2016, 12:54:01 pm

 I do think you will be waiting a loooooooooong time. It seems that their current strategy is to lie low and hope that like most things, everyone will forget all about them ever existing after a few months. If it's not in the news today, it didn't happen. This short attention span of the masses is why we have the same boondoggles over and over again - "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" does not apply to just big events.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on September 27, 2016, 01:07:20 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 26, 2016, 10:30:29 pm

... and slander libel in a national newspaper ...

There, fixed that for you.

But seriously. I'd just like it to reach a conclusion sometime soon. It's reached the bloody boring stage. It's like watching a TV series that goes seriously downhill about halfway through the season. You've watched it so far, so you want to know how it ends, but it's painful to sit through the remaining episodes, but you can't skip them in case you miss some plot twist that's vital to understanding the end.

So, Batter-wantever-you're-called this month; if you're listening please either:

• Ship the bloody things ,or
• File for bankrupcy, or
• Get arrested for fraud, or
• Pack it in and admit the whole thing has been a massive series of blunders mixed with hubris, or
• Almost anything else that isn't sitting around on your collective arses making more excuses.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 29, 2016, 12:38:25 pm

Well, it's the end of September tomorrow and no update or promised shipped product  :=\

Restless backers again:
(http://i.imgur.com/h2ZB3V4.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on September 29, 2016, 12:49:26 pm

Quote from: Cerebus on September 27, 2016, 01:07:20 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on September 26, 2016, 10:30:29 pm

... and slander libel in a national newspaper ...

There, fixed that for you.

Actually I do believe it's slander, because it wasn't Bob printing the words (which would be libel), the newspaper was just quoting a phone interview with him.
But meh, either way he was being a real duche.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: niekvs on September 30, 2016, 02:29:58 pm

In Europe, googling for "Bob Roohparvar" shows a few results, and then the following:

"Some results may have been removed under data protection law in Europe. Learn more"
https://www.google.nl/policies/faq/ (https://www.google.nl/policies/faq/)

Apparently he used the "right to be forgotten". I wonder why :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on September 30, 2016, 10:14:38 pm

Quote from: niekvs on September 30, 2016, 02:29:58 pm

In Europe, googling for "Bob Roohparvar" shows a few results, and then the following:

"Some results may have been removed under data protection law in Europe. Learn more"
https://www.google.nl/policies/faq/ (https://www.google.nl/policies/faq/)

Apparently he used the "right to be forgotten". I wonder why :)

...because he's proven that he's completely forgettable - along with his non-product and the family name that he's disgraced.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cyberdragon on October 04, 2016, 11:31:43 pm

Quote from: niekvs on September 30, 2016, 02:29:58 pm

In Europe, googling for "Bob Roohparvar" shows a few results, and then the following:

"Some results may have been removed under data protection law in Europe. Learn more"
https://www.google.nl/policies/faq/ (https://www.google.nl/policies/faq/)

Apparently he used the "right to be forgotten". I wonder why :)

Well I'm in the US, so I don't have to worry about that :bullshit:. Googling his ass now...>:D
*processing*
Results:
-a bunch of old batterizer crap from last year
-this: https://www.crunchbase.com/person/bob-roohparvar#/entity (https://www.crunchbase.com/person/bob-roohparvar#/entity)
-this: http://www.photonics.com/Article.aspx?AID=51775 (http://www.photonics.com/Article.aspx?AID=51775)
-this: http://ir.tessera.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=560298 (http://ir.tessera.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=560298)

Oh and heres a good one...PATENTS :popcorn:
http://patents.justia.com/inventor/bob-roohparvar (http://patents.justia.com/inventor/bob-roohparvar)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Towger on October 05, 2016, 12:07:36 am

Quote from: Cyberdragon on October 04, 2016, 11:31:43 pm

Well I'm in the US, so I don't have to worry about that :bullshit:. Googling his ass now...>:D

Is there no links to his collage lecturing job comming up in the US?

Try Farzan Robert/Bob Roohparvar

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 05, 2016, 01:02:11 am

Quote from: Cyberdragon on October 04, 2016, 11:31:43 pm

Quote from: niekvs on September 30, 2016, 02:29:58 pm

In Europe, googling for "Bob Roohparvar" shows a few results, and then the following:

"Some results may have been removed under data protection law in Europe. Learn more"
https://www.google.nl/policies/faq/ (https://www.google.nl/policies/faq/)

Apparently he used the "right to be forgotten". I wonder why :)

Well I'm in the US, so I don't have to worry about that :bullshit:. Googling his ass now...>:D
*processing*
Results:
-a bunch of old batterizer crap from last year
-this: https://www.crunchbase.com/person/bob-roohparvar#/entity (https://www.crunchbase.com/person/bob-roohparvar#/entity)
-this: http://www.photonics.com/Article.aspx?AID=51775 (http://www.photonics.com/Article.aspx?AID=51775)
-this: http://ir.tessera.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=560298 (http://ir.tessera.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=560298)

There is much more than that as been pointed out on here before:
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1261694/000092189513000895/dfan14a06297103_04302013.pdf (https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1261694/000092189513000895/dfan14a06297103_04302013.pdf)

Quote

http://Farzan Roohparvar joined the Company in March 2011 and was terminated from his position as President of DOC on
September 4, 2012.
? Paid $500,000 as an initial separation payment and $440,000 in additional severance payments, for a total cash
payment of $940,000.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/starboard-delivers-letter-to-tessera-technologies-board-191801441.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/starboard-delivers-letter-to-tessera-technologies-board-191801441.html)

Quote

Despite management's assertions that all is well in DOC, the business unit has also been plagued with a revolving door of general managers.  Within the past three years, DOC has had four different general managers. On September 4, 2012, Tessera announced that Dr. Bob Roohparvar was departing the Company less than 18 months after he joined.  His departure cost shareholders close to $950,000 in cash severance, and $1 million when taking into account Dr. Roohparvar's post-departure consulting arrangement with the Company.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cyberdragon on October 05, 2016, 01:04:11 am

Quote from: Towger on October 05, 2016, 12:07:36 am

Quote from: Cyberdragon on October 04, 2016, 11:31:43 pm

Well I'm in the US, so I don't have to worry about that :bullshit:. Googling his ass now...>:D

Is there no links to his collage lecturing job comming up in the US?

Try Farzan Robert/Bob Roohparvar

I saw them, I just thought Farzan was a different person. :palm:

Edit: the patents don't show the pictures! Where's one with the diagrams?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on October 06, 2016, 01:26:54 pm

I sense a great darkness in the force over at the indiegogo comments....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on October 06, 2016, 06:11:08 pm

disturbance in the force....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on October 06, 2016, 11:38:11 pm

Complaining is a waste of time.  Computers do not care.  No one cares, they have their money, they have spent it and I am sure they are cooking up more ways to get more.  People have got to realize they have been ripped off and stop crying.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 07, 2016, 02:28:37 am

The thing I don't get is if Batteroo plan to not deliver at all then why bother with the last update specifying a date?
They were home and hosed and could have just vanished before that update which just put the spotlight back on them.
If they have no intention to actually deliver then they are as incompetent at doing that as they have been with their entire campaign.

I still reckon it's that bankrupt shipping company that's at fault  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on October 07, 2016, 04:30:10 am

Quote from: EEVblog

.. The thing I don't get is if Batteroo plan to not deliver at all then why bother with the last update specifying a date? ...

Din't you (someone) mention that as long as they "appear" to be trying to release a product, and have NOT given up, IG won't go after them?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on October 07, 2016, 07:34:43 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 07, 2016, 02:28:37 am

The thing I don't get is if Batteroo plan to not deliver at all then why bother with the last update specifying a date?
They were home and hosed and could have just vanished before that update which just put the spotlight back on them.
If they have no intention to actually deliver then they are as incompetent at doing that as they have been with their entire campaign.

I still reckon it's that bankrupt shipping company that's at fault  ;D

The shipping company excuse doesn't work for them. Most of the ships that were blocked were on different routes and had already been at sea for weeks. They've all been allowed into ports now anyway.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 07, 2016, 07:48:57 am

Quote from: digsys on October 07, 2016, 04:30:10 am

Quote from: EEVblog

.. The thing I don't get is if Batteroo plan to not deliver at all then why bother with the last update specifying a date? ...

Din't you (someone) mention that as long as they "appear" to be trying to release a product, and have NOT given up, IG won't go after them?

Maybe, but:
a) They didn't have to put a specific date, they could have more easily just spun more BS.
b) It was 4 months between the previous update with the photos and the latest shipping date update, almost everyone had simply written off the project by that point. IGG usually don't poke the campaign owner unless a lot of people scream.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 07, 2016, 10:47:34 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 07, 2016, 07:48:57 am

IGG usually don't poke the campaign owner unless a lot of people scream.

Does IGG actually do anything about scam campaigns?

(and what could they actually do?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: coppice on October 07, 2016, 10:55:38 am

Quote from: Fungus on October 07, 2016, 10:47:34 am

Does IGG actually do anything about scam campaigns?

Profit?  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cyberdragon on October 07, 2016, 12:49:49 pm

Quote from: coppice on October 07, 2016, 10:55:38 am

Quote from: Fungus on October 07, 2016, 10:47:34 am

Does IGG actually do anything about scam campaigns?

Profit?  ;)

Indegogo itself is a scam. Granted, kickstarter is full of them too, but indegogo ones tend to be way worse. They can even be downright nasty or dangerous and they don't care! I would post some of them, but they are so bad I really shouldn't, go check out the channel idubbbztv if you want to see some of the worst :bullshit: they allow. If they were legit, that shit would get banned immediately! :rant:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 07, 2016, 01:24:12 pm

Quote from: Fungus on October 07, 2016, 10:47:34 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 07, 2016, 07:48:57 am

IGG usually don't poke the campaign owner unless a lot of people scream.

Does IGG actually do anything about scam campaigns?
(and what could they actually do?)

I believe we have evidence on here somewhere that they tapped Batteroo on the shoulder which prompted an update from them, possibly more than once.
Even IIG bowed to pressure and removed that underwater breathing scam.

IIG can't really do anything legally but they certainly can threaten to either remove a campaign page that companies like Batteroo use for publicity forever. Or mark the page with some huge note that they haven't delivered, aren't responsive etc.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on October 07, 2016, 03:12:24 pm

Quote from: Cyberdragon on October 07, 2016, 12:49:49 pm

...
I would post some of them, but they are so bad I really shouldn't
...

The sticky thread in the "Crowd Funded Projects" department of the EEVblog forum:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/list-of-dodgy-crowd-source-funded-projects/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/list-of-dodgy-crowd-source-funded-projects/)     :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on October 08, 2016, 03:25:49 pm

Oh my! A new tacky marketing bs video preview got released. Seems the new, new, name is "Batteroo Boost" and they haven't given up pedalling them just yet...

What is marginally interesting in the video is the suggestion is to put the sleeve on after the battery has died, and then when they show the graphic of a depleted battery, the % remaining is only 2%. Isn't that an order of magnitude less than their original bs claims of 20% remaining ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJzZGhauzS8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJzZGhauzS8)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on October 08, 2016, 04:01:29 pm

With voice synthesis because they couldn't find a speaker who was willing to associate themselves with the (non-existant) product, or because they've spent all the money on champagne?

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 08, 2016, 04:05:47 pm

It's not even by Batteroo, it's by "Appnoon".

WTF?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on October 08, 2016, 04:50:15 pm

Batteroo outsourcing video production isn't that surprising -they started out with fake fan videos from fiverr in the early days. This and other app noon videos are mostly previews, so the probably just there for Batteroo's approval/change requests. The voice over is probably temporary until a real voice actor is found.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kilrah on October 08, 2016, 05:16:10 pm

Quote from: rich on October 08, 2016, 03:25:49 pm

Isn't that an order of magnitude less than their original bs claims of 20% 80% remaining ?

FTFY

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on October 08, 2016, 05:30:07 pm

:-+ thanks.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 08, 2016, 11:55:05 pm

Quote from: rich on October 08, 2016, 03:25:49 pm

What is marginally interesting in the video is the suggestion is to put the sleeve on after the battery has died, and then when they show the graphic of a depleted battery, the % remaining is only 2%. Isn't that an order of magnitude less than their original bs claims of 20% remaining ?

Yeah, that's really interesting.
Their original (and still current) claim is 80% of the energy in the battery remains. now this shows 2%  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on October 09, 2016, 12:35:12 am

It would appear that the Appnoon mob are putting more effort into the product than anybody else and probably like everybody else getting nothing in return, shameful.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on October 09, 2016, 12:57:26 am

Hi,

I have no idea who the Appnoon people are. I don't think that they are connected to Batteroo at all.

If this was a Batteroo video, wouldn't it be on the official channel?

There is www.appnoon.com (http://www.appnoon.com) that seem to be an app developer for smart phones. They may or may not be connected to the Appnoon YouTube.

There is another video, called Sequence 01:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1AUn4xsJSw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1AUn4xsJSw)

This one is marked preview.

May be this is work in progress that shouldn't be available yet?


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on October 09, 2016, 01:31:15 am

I think you are right that the Appnoon mob are just knocking out stuff in the hope that they may be engaged by Batteroo to promote the phantom product as we discussed earlier in the thread.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg904043/#msg904043 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg904043/#msg904043)

What I don't get is that I thought Energizer put a stop to Batteroo using their name in promotional material yet they still make reference to the battery giant on one of their web pages.

http://batteroo.co/batteriser-technical-qa/ (http://batteroo.co/batteriser-technical-qa/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on October 09, 2016, 02:24:35 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 07, 2016, 02:28:37 am

The thing I don't get is if Batteroo plan to not deliver at all then why bother with the last update specifying a date?

Because they are a bunch of liars? Date or no date, it's all still bullshit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cyberdragon on October 09, 2016, 04:45:57 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on October 09, 2016, 12:35:12 am

It would appear that the Appnoon mob are putting more effort into the product than anybody else and probably like everybody else getting nothing in return, shameful.

I hope it's really one big troll campaign. >:D That would be HILARIOUS! :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 09, 2016, 11:31:29 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on October 09, 2016, 01:31:15 am

I think you are right that the Appnoon mob are just knocking out stuff in the hope that they may be engaged by Batteroo to promote the phantom product as we discussed earlier in the thread.

I doubt it, I recon they are paying them peanuts to produce potential marketing video. Like they paid a pittance to those actors on fiverr to produce those fake videos.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on October 09, 2016, 11:49:13 am

But WHY?




Considering they have had the opportunity for it to 'go quietly into the night', the continued 'surfacing' of the Batteroo promise makes me wonder.... are they trying to maintain an image of hope for some ulterior motive?

Do they have another agenda that needs Batteroo to maintain some semblance of propriety, however meagre or nebulous?

Otherwise, this whole business is nonsensical.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 09, 2016, 12:16:15 pm

Quote from: Brumby on October 09, 2016, 11:49:13 am

But WHY?
Considering they have had the opportunity for it to 'go quietly into the night', the continued 'surfacing' of the Batteroo promise makes me wonder.... are they trying to maintain an image of hope for some ulterior motive?
Do they have another agenda that needs Batteroo to maintain some semblance of propriety, however meagre or nebulous?
Otherwise, this whole business is nonsensical.

That's always been the million dollar question, none of this has ever made sense with all the crazy stuff they have said and done.
I think they have to keep up the appearances in order to potentially snag a buyer for the company and/or that Walmart/Kmart order.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 09, 2016, 01:33:42 pm

Quote from: Brumby on October 09, 2016, 11:49:13 am

But WHY?

Considering they have had the opportunity for it to 'go quietly into the night', the continued 'surfacing' of the Batteroo promise makes me wonder.... are they trying to maintain an image of hope for some ulterior motive?

Who knows? Maybe Bob just had lunch with somebody who's:
a) Rich
b) Never heard of the Internet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on October 09, 2016, 01:36:45 pm

Quote from: Fungus on October 09, 2016, 01:33:42 pm

Quote from: Brumby on October 09, 2016, 11:49:13 am

But WHY?

Considering they have had the opportunity for it to 'go quietly into the night', the continued 'surfacing' of the Batteroo promise makes me wonder.... are they trying to maintain an image of hope for some ulterior motive?

Who knows? Maybe Bob just had lunch with somebody who's:
a) Rich
b) Never heard of the Internet.

those 2 are generally not mutually exclusive.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on October 09, 2016, 02:00:09 pm

One possibility, If SK is still in the dark(=believing the thing), bob and the company needs to pretending doing something to keep it that way until all the money are spent or packeted legally.

If the project has to fail, they also would prefer it fails more gracefully and to project the image that they did everything possible and they are not the ones to blame, so  not to overly impact their next project negatively. Remember, they are serial entrepreneurs. They must be mindful of their next projects all the time.

In other words, if, in general public's mind, Dave's this debunk is successful, Dave had just debunked their cridibility, compedence and truthfulness, and, in away, their upcoming projects. In that sense, this is a battle they have to fight and sustain to control the damage, rather than abandon.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on October 09, 2016, 05:10:50 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on October 09, 2016, 12:16:15 pm

That's always been the million dollar question, none of this has ever made sense with all the crazy stuff they have said and done.
I think they have to keep up the appearances in order to potentially snag a buyer for the company and/or that Walmart/Kmart order.

Here is one possible explanation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12294193 (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12294193)
"Trading was just halted in Neuromama (OTC:NERO), a startup with a $35 billion market cap. They have a search engine (https://neuromama.com/ (https://neuromama.com/)), a social network (http://vica.life/ (http://vica.life/)), and claim "heavy ion fusion" and oceanfront property in Mexico. The CEO got out of prison 6 years ago."
spoiler: it was a bunch of BS SEO created by fiverr type copywriters and a "search engine" page proxying queries to google, laughable on the face of it, still managed to scam people out of ridiculous sums of money.

Is butterscam or their parent company traded on penny stock exchanges by any chance? Either that or they are building "stronk portfolio' in order to scam Asian investors. Chinese stock exchange is full of frauds like this, which led to 2015 crash and government intervention.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 09, 2016, 11:21:08 pm

Quote from: onlooker on October 09, 2016, 02:00:09 pm

In other words, if, in general public's mind, Dave's this debunk is successful, Dave had just debunked their cridibility, compedence and truthfulness, and, in away, their upcoming projects. In that sense, this is a battle they have to fight and sustain to control the damage, rather than abandon.

And this is why they can't ship the product, they know it's game over if they do. Youtube and google will be plastered with so many Batteroo FAIL videos and commentary it won't be funny. Just look at the popularity of this thread and the commentary already out there on it, Batteroo have created a social entertainment monster of a product that has become an industry joke, countless people follow it just for the laughs.
These are not technically dumb guys, they now know their product can't deliver as promised even if they originally thought it would. but they have dug themselves a technical hole so deep they will never get out of.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cyberdragon on October 09, 2016, 11:41:54 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on October 09, 2016, 11:21:08 pm

Quote from: onlooker on October 09, 2016, 02:00:09 pm

In other words, if, in general public's mind, Dave's this debunk is successful, Dave had just debunked their cridibility, compedence and truthfulness, and, in away, their upcoming projects. In that sense, this is a battle they have to fight and sustain to control the damage, rather than abandon.

And this is why they can't ship the product, they know it's game over if they do. Youtube and google will be plastered with so many Batteroo FAIL videos and commentary it won't be funny. Just look at the popularity of this thread and the commentary already out there on it, Batteroo have created a social entertainment monster of a product that has become an industry joke, countless people follow it just for the laughs.
These are not technically dumb guys, they now know their product can't deliver as promised even if they originally thought it would. but they have dug themselves a technical hole so deep they will never get out of.

Why don't they just remarket the damn thing! It still has a use as a device to make rechargeables work where they normally won't. At least they'd have something to actually sell, even if it's a niche application.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 09, 2016, 11:47:28 pm

Let's have a look at the last update again:

Quote

As you are aware from our last email, due to the Energizer trademark infringement lawsuit, we have now officially decided to move forward with Batteroo as our new product name.  Our CEO Bob Roohparvar just returned from Asia where he oversaw the manufacturing process of our newly tooled Batteroo sleeves.  We are happy to announce that by August 22nd, we will begin shipping Batteroo sleeves to our distribution centers in the US and around the world! Consequently, based on input from our logistics company, we expect shipments to our Indiegogo and pre-order customers to happen within four to eight weeks.

 As we have been going through this re-tooling process of building the new sleeves that have the Batteroo name and logo, we will not have enough of some of the parts required to build ALL of the sleeves.  However, in order not to delay product shipment any further, we have been cleared by our legal team to build a portion of the sleeves for our Indiegogo and pre-order customers using some of the existing inventory with the  Batteriser name and logo. While some of our Indiegogo and pre-order customers will receive sleeves with Batteroo, and some with Batteriser, both types of sleeves will have the same exact circuitry and Batteroo packaging.

This is clearly saying that manufacturing (and therefore testing etc) is complete and signed off, and at least a pre-production run of Batteroo's has been completely. So final working product already exists in some small-ish volume at the date of the update >2 months ago.

I'm still waiting for that email from Bob saying he's so proud of his product and wants to prove me and the other naysayers wrong that he's going to express ship the first units to the media to test and show the world how great his revolutionary product is.
WAIT, hang on!, just checked by email and I've got an email from Bob!
Oh, hang on, that's just my uncle Bob, bugger.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 09, 2016, 11:49:36 pm

Quote from: Cyberdragon on October 09, 2016, 11:41:54 pm

Why don't they just remarket the damn thing! It still has a use as a device to make rechargeables work where they normally won't. At least they'd have something to actually sell, even if it's a niche application.

Because they don't want a niche application, there is no money in that, no one cares about that, it's not revolutionary enough for these serial entrepreneurs.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: westfw on October 10, 2016, 08:52:17 am

Quote

these serial entrepreneurs.

And... that's why it's being strung out.  To fail completely, or to ship a product that was a complete failure, would interfere with The Next Thing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 10, 2016, 09:13:28 am

Quote from: westfw on October 10, 2016, 08:52:17 am

Quote

these serial entrepreneurs.

And... that's why it's being strung out.  To fail completely, or to ship a product that was a complete failure, would interfere with The Next Thing.

Yep. Right now they still have (on paper) a "successful crowdfunding".

(but let's hope nobody goes and looks at the comments)

Today's Dilbert seems relevant:

http://dilbert.com/strip/2016-10-10 (http://dilbert.com/strip/2016-10-10)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on October 10, 2016, 01:20:54 pm

Dilbert rocks!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cyberdragon on October 10, 2016, 09:31:36 pm

(http://afmktpstu.weebly.com/uploads/5/4/2/4/5424898/dilbert-fraud-marketing.gif)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on October 11, 2016, 04:10:48 pm

I love the latest comment on the IGG page...   Kudos, John Sinclair, you made my day! :-DD

(http://i.imgur.com/ZeqDqTX.png)

I wonder if they are still working around-the-clock to bring us our Batterisers this last November?

(http://i.imgur.com/E44Mv7I.png)

I suppose they have just redefined what "around the clock" means to mean "biding time, procrastinating and avoiding doing anything at all" instead!   :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on October 11, 2016, 04:28:26 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on October 09, 2016, 12:57:26 am

There is www.appnoon.com (http://www.appnoon.com) that seem to be an app developer for smart phones. They may or may not be connected to the Appnoon YouTube.

The Youtube channel and webpage use the same company logo. But looks like a cheap one-man show from home, not even a company about page with an address. Might be advertising on Fiverr, too, which btw. I had bad experience with: I ordered a logo design from someone at fiverr, was stolen from another company and only slightly modified, which someone of my target audience noticed before it went public. Since then I always use 99designs, more expensive, but always perfect.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on October 14, 2016, 09:59:35 am

Quote from: drussell on October 11, 2016, 04:10:48 pm

I suppose they have just redefined what "around the clock" means to mean "biding time, procrastinating and avoiding doing anything at all" instead!   :palm:

Wake up at 1000H. Oooh, silky bed sheets.
Finally get out of bed at 1030H.
Pee, shower, coffee and read the EEVblog Batteriser thread until 1115H.
1116H: Check bank balance; make sure Indiegogo Backers' money is mostly still there (give or take $100k).
1230H: Time for lunch.
1400H: Cocktail hour at the Roohparvar manse.
Call the "factory" at Shenzhen... Hah! Jokes! Call my cousin Frankie for the lulz at 1500H.
Nintendo Wii until 1600H.
Out for dinner and a show or perhaps another shonky "awards" gala until 2300H.
Rinse and repeat for the next 12 months until some other sucker gives us money.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on October 14, 2016, 11:55:58 am

They are "in transit" :bullshit:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=262438;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on October 14, 2016, 12:04:02 pm

And of course general discontent all round...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=262442;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=262444;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cyberdragon on October 15, 2016, 12:16:19 am

Oops! It seems that the problem is that Voltamort keeps sabotaging the manufacture and shipment of batterizers as part of the war against :bullshit:.

Sorry Not sorry! >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2016, 12:22:33 am

Quote from: quad on October 14, 2016, 11:55:58 am

They are "in transit" :bullshit:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=262438;image)

You have to wonder who wrote that email?, it sounds like one of their silly Facebook page responses.
If they were truly "in transit" i.e. on the delivery truck, you can bet your arse that Bob would be crowing about it and wanting to silence the critics.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on October 15, 2016, 04:46:38 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 15, 2016, 12:22:33 am

If they were truly "in transit" i.e. on the delivery truck, you can bet your arse that Bob would be crowing about it and wanting to silence the critics.

You'd better believe it!!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: boffin on October 15, 2016, 04:38:44 pm

Looks like they've fooled another group of people to invest in them.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=262729;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hugoneus on October 15, 2016, 08:03:00 pm

I am really really eager to see the end result of this.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on October 15, 2016, 08:34:47 pm

Quote from: Hugoneus on October 15, 2016, 08:03:00 pm

I am really really eager to see the end result of this.  :popcorn:

That is kinda sad, it will when you end.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hugoneus on October 15, 2016, 09:17:58 pm

Quote from: ez24 on October 15, 2016, 08:34:47 pm

Quote from: Hugoneus on October 15, 2016, 08:03:00 pm

I am really really eager to see the end result of this.  :popcorn:

That is kinda sad, it will when you end.

Why is it sad? I think the sooner this ends the better. The longer it gets dragged on the more chance more people would be fooled.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on October 15, 2016, 09:38:33 pm

Quote from: Hugoneus on October 15, 2016, 09:17:58 pm

Quote from: ez24 on October 15, 2016, 08:34:47 pm

Quote from: Hugoneus on October 15, 2016, 08:03:00 pm

I am really really eager to see the end result of this.  :popcorn:

That is kinda sad, it will when you end.

Why is it sad? I think the sooner this ends the better. The longer it gets dragged on the more chance more people would be fooled.

Sorry I meant you are going to die before this will end,  ie there will be no end.  It will fade into the sunset along with the perpetrators.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on October 15, 2016, 10:11:07 pm

Quote from: boffin on October 15, 2016, 04:38:44 pm

Looks like they've fooled another group of people to invest in them.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=262729;image)

SKAT innopartners is SK Telecom, same clowns that provide fake office space for batterscam from the beginning

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on October 15, 2016, 10:50:02 pm

We could give them the silent treatment and see how they like it.   :-X   :horse: 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 16, 2016, 01:39:32 am

Quote from: boffin on October 15, 2016, 04:38:44 pm

Looks like they've fooled another group of people to invest in them.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=262729;image)

No, that's just an arm of the original investor SK Telecom.
Why they are suddenly promoting it I I'm not sure.

Part of me still thinks they are actually going to be stupid enough to ship something.
I think they (Batteroo) are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They don't want to ship because they know their product can't delivery even to close to what is promised, and there are thousands of engineers out there waiting to get their hands on it and test it and publish actual data, something Batteroo have never done, because, well, it would be embarrassing. This has been the industries biggest soap opera and everything is watching, and they know it.
On the other hand they have to eventually show their investors that this thing is a viable product (hence the latest post I guess), they are still talking up the wonders of this marvelous technology to them no doubt.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 16, 2016, 01:47:13 am

Quote from: Hugoneus on October 15, 2016, 09:17:58 pm

I think the sooner this ends the better. The longer it gets dragged on the more chance more people would be fooled.

There are only two ways this will end:
- It will wither away and die slowly, never shipping anything
- They will ship something and the game is up as far as we are concerned.

The thing with the latter though is that regardless of how much info is out there about how crap this product is, they will still be able to fool the Walmart's and KMart's of the world into an order, and that's scary. And I think they are in it for this long game. They have no intention of selling onesies and twosies to customers, that's a nothing business. And the odds of selling the company are pretty dismal now that their patent looks to be in trouble (any update on that?). So it's big order or bust.

There are people who think the Baterroo Brothers intention is to simply run off with the money. It's not. They are "serial entrepreneurs" and want to either flip the company for a profit and/or make that zillion dollar deal with Walmart.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on October 16, 2016, 02:34:04 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 16, 2016, 01:47:13 am

The thing with the latter though is that regardless of how much info is out there about how crap this product is, they will still be able to fool the Walmart's and KMart's of the world into an order, and that's scary.

Here in the US we have 99 cent stores that are full of things that don't work.  It is also a market for them.  (FYI sometimes there are good things there - so I shop at them  :-DD )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on October 16, 2016, 10:38:36 am

It's going to be interesting to see how long this (vague) "In transit" thing is going to last.

It seems to show though that the Baite-ruse Brothers dare not post yet another delay excuse update.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cyberdragon on October 20, 2016, 07:50:03 am

It won't just end if they ship it, it would get far worse.

We would just beat the absolute shit out of them with even more science and actual evidence. It would be better for them to just die. If they ever stuck their head out by shipping, it would be like pneumatic hammer whack-a-mole! >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on October 20, 2016, 10:13:03 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 16, 2016, 01:47:13 am

The thing with the latter though is that regardless of how much info is out there about how crap this product is, they will still be able to fool the Walmart's and KMart's of the world into an order

The fact that they've failed so far could be a sign that the purchasers at the big chains are smart enough not to bet on it.

You do see them sell the "as seen on TV!" junk, but that stuff is usually worded carefully so it's not an outright lie. All of Batteroo's claims meanwhile are easily falsifiable.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on October 26, 2016, 12:48:14 pm

Guess they know something we don't  :bullshit: or was this Oct 24 2015?


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=265207;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on October 26, 2016, 01:00:34 pm

Quote from: ez24 on October 16, 2016, 02:34:04 am

Here in the US we have 99 cent stores that are full of things that don't work.  It is also a market for them.  (FYI sometimes there are good things there - so I shop at them  :-DD )

Maybe they will ship to Europe too? I hear theres stores called Poundland over there, usually filled with crap.  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on October 26, 2016, 01:03:56 pm

Quote from: StuUK on October 26, 2016, 12:48:14 pm

... or was this Oct 24 2015?

I think you will find it is this ^  ^  ^




Great, isn't it?

We are now dealing with dates - not for their day or month - but for their year.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on October 26, 2016, 01:06:07 pm

I did wonder.... ah well I guess it's well on the road to silent obscurity/best forgotten and never mentioned again by those embarrassed to promote it....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on October 26, 2016, 01:09:02 pm

Quote from: StuUK on October 26, 2016, 12:48:14 pm

Guess they know something we don't  :bullshit: or was this Oct 24 2015?

That was October 24th, 2016 alright. Otherwise it would have the year after it. Maybe they do know something we don't?  :-//

One things for sure, I and probably everyone else on this forum would love to be a fly on the wall at their "offices" right now...  :-DD

Quote from: Brumby on October 26, 2016, 01:03:56 pm

I think you will find it is this ^  ^  ^




Great, isn't it?

We are now dealing with dates - not for their day or month - but for their year.

That is what they will claim. (corporate ass-covering) But I think Twitter shows the year if the tweet is more than a year old.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on October 26, 2016, 01:19:02 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on October 26, 2016, 01:09:02 pm

But I think Twitter shows the year if the tweet is more than a year old.

In my Japanese locale it shows the year as 2016

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=265271;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on October 26, 2016, 01:28:39 pm

OK - maybe it is 2016....

... but the fact that the year was even in question, reflects on the state of things rather tellingly.


Even more so when you can find that same photo ... published in July and August of 2015.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on October 26, 2016, 01:31:16 pm

Quote from: Brumby on October 26, 2016, 01:28:39 pm

OK - maybe it is 2016....

... but the fact that the year was even in question, reflects on the state of things rather tellingly.

Indeed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on October 26, 2016, 05:33:08 pm

Those product shots can't be 'new stock' for ready release, as they are still infringing with the old 'BATTERISER' name.

We have reached the point of 'run it into the ground', and claim the the tax losses.

End of story for the backers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on October 27, 2016, 07:25:42 am

Quote from: ccs46 on October 26, 2016, 01:09:02 pm

One things for sure, I and probably everyone else on this forum would love to be a fly on the wall at their "offices" right now...  :-DD

Not a chance, you could get hit by a door being kicked in by some industrial spies trying to steal their "secrets"!

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Faith on October 27, 2016, 08:41:44 am

I can't be the only one who thinks "please say it has launched, PLEASE SAY IT HAS LAUNCHED!!!1!1!!" every time I see this thread shoot back to the top with a new reply.

Please just launch it already. I will buy one. I really will. I promise. Really.

I waaaaant oneeeee!~ >,<"...

Faith <- eager Batterwhatever customer-to-be.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on October 27, 2016, 09:24:28 am

Quote from: Faith on October 27, 2016, 08:41:44 am

I can't be the only one who thinks "please say it has launched, PLEASE SAY IT HAS LAUNCHED!!!1!1!!" every time I see this thread shoot back to the top with a new reply.

Please just launch it already. I will buy one. I really will. I promise. Really.

I waaaaant oneeeee!~ >,<"...

Faith <- eager Batterwhatever customer-to-be.

Why would you want to buy one? Anyways don't hold your breath I don't think we will ever see one in the wild...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on October 27, 2016, 09:38:54 am

Quote from: StuUK on October 26, 2016, 12:48:14 pm

Guess they know something we don't  :bullshit: or was this Oct 24 2015?


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=265207;image)

Interesting how 2Tech Ltd describe themselves in their Twitter profile, yet perpetuate the Batteriser 20%/80% nonsense

Quote

@2techLtd

We discover, import and sell extraordinary and ethical products across the UK retail industry.

(my emphasis)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on October 27, 2016, 01:17:24 pm

Quote

@2techLtd

We discover, import and sell extraordinary and ethical products across the UK retail industry.

Poundland it is then! :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jc101 on October 27, 2016, 01:39:25 pm

I replied to their tweet and they said...

"when it's released please try one and get back to us. It's been independently tested and proven to work. They launch next month."
"it's not on sale yet, when it does have a try and get back to us. We are happy with the independent tests, it really does work."

...I asked them for a link to the tests and if the Energiser suit has been resolved.
 :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on October 27, 2016, 09:12:48 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on October 26, 2016, 01:00:34 pm

Maybe they will ship to Europe too? I hear theres stores called Poundland over there, usually filled with crap.  :-DD

Don't knock Poundland, they are the upper class cousin to low end 99p stores  ;)

To be honest on the odd occasions I venture into a shopping mall paradise my first ports of call are these China export front shops as a form of amusement, and they work because I always end up spending ten quid or so on their dubious wares.

Big Clive (https://www.youtube.com/user/bigclivedotcom?&ab_channel=bigclivedotcom) has quite a popular youtube channel almost dedicated to his Poundland scores (I wish he would find something more interesting than mains LED lights though - they have been done to death! :horse:)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on October 27, 2016, 09:59:29 pm

Things may have got moving again because the Energiser suit just got withdrawn as far as I can tell (Notice of Voluntary Dismissal filed 25 Oct 2016).  We know Batteroo and Energizer talk outside of the courtroom, so it perhaps Energizer are happy with Batteroo's rebranding efforts and they've come to an agreement.

So that's the last obstacle unblocked, I wonder what the next excuse will be... Or maybe they really are going to ship in time for xmas.  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on October 28, 2016, 12:21:22 am

Quote from: rich on October 27, 2016, 09:59:29 pm

So that's the last obstacle unblocked, I wonder what the next excuse will be... Or maybe they really are going to ship in time for xmas.  :-DD

Batteroo's plan seems to be to ship worldwide and then start testing their very first manufacturing prototype. As far as I can see, they haven't had a working prototype yet - the one capable of outputting at 1.5V any current that the battery was normally able to supply. If Batterroo didn't actually place an order for some Batterisers for themselves, they probably need one of their customers will voluntarily send them a sample to help out.

They do have the prototype they did the UL noise tests on - the one capable of outputting 1.5mA.

It is very unfair that a Chinese manufacturing subcontractor has obviously been sitting on hundreds of thousands of these ready-to-ship fully-working super-efficient noise-free high-current problem-free Batterisers for many months and they wont even let Batterroo have one sample for photos and test measurements.  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 28, 2016, 12:24:35 am

OMG they are shipping!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=265672;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on October 28, 2016, 12:43:38 am

Oh geez, now, not only has Bob designed the iPhone's wall wart, he's made a device even more difficult than the iPhone to manufacture. :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 28, 2016, 12:51:21 am

OK, so now that the product has shipped (awaiting first receipt confirmation of course), one has to now wonder, WTF was Bob thinking with all his BS non-updates and all the other crap he let go on with this campaign that has turned it into the industries biggest joke?
All he had to do was speak honestly and provide photos or whatever and he could have prevented his name and the brand going down the toilet for a year now. Why would anyone cause so much harm to themselves when it was so simple to fix?  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on October 28, 2016, 01:14:13 am

It's all too little too late as far as I'm concerned, I dumped a shitload of used batteries last month at the local council depot simply because they were not getting any better on their own and I got sick of waiting for these clowns, so much for saving the planet with your empty promises and deceptions, the world has all turned to shit now and we know who to blame.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=265678;image)

 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on October 28, 2016, 01:24:10 am

The plot thickens!!!  :)

I can't wait...  Can't wait!  CAN'T WAIT!!!

This should be great entertainment!!!  :popcorn:

Quote from: EEVblog on October 28, 2016, 12:51:21 am

Why would anyone cause so much harm to themselves when it was so simple to fix?

Managerial incompetence?  SERIAL managerial incompetence?  (Not to mention the engineering :palm: ...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on October 28, 2016, 01:39:15 am

Jesus H Christ - I knew I was right to hold on to all those leaky corroding Super Heavy Duty china special AA batteries!  ;D

Hahaha - let's see who's the idiot now! Sorry Muttley, but you obviously had your canine cajones lopped off too early while brave battery pioneers with fortitude and faith in the Poo' bro's are going to be milking that hidden 80% out of our 20 for a quid AA's from the 99p shop for a long time to come!  :-DD

Oh lord, Dave Jones and Phil Mason (thunderf00t) must be quivering in their ivory towers along with "Big Battery" - they put up a good fight, but the designated shitting streets Batter-Poo's are going to revolutionize the world!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on October 28, 2016, 01:44:30 am

It is still really odd. No photos, no YouTube video, no mention of any performance results. Nothing on their website.

Their original campaign was for $30,000 (which was exceeded) and they made a custom IC? The IC they needed has to have better performance then anything currently on the market by a big margin.

It will be fun to see what happens over the next few weeks.

The good news for Bob is that they do not actually have to set up any "automated system" for people to be able to put reviews on line.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on October 28, 2016, 02:01:15 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 28, 2016, 12:51:21 am

OK, so now that the product has shipped (awaiting first receipt confirmation of course), one has to now wonder, WTF was Bob thinking with all his BS non-updates and all the other crap he let go on with this campaign that has turned it into the industries biggest joke?
All he had to do was speak honestly and provide photos or whatever and he could have prevented his name and the brand going down the toilet for a year now. Why would anyone cause so much harm to themselves when it was so simple to fix?  :-//

I stand by my earlier suggestion on this point...

Quote from: Brumby on August 05, 2016, 04:38:10 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 05, 2016, 12:29:40 am

Quote from: Kilrah on August 04, 2016, 05:39:28 pm

There is pretty certainly nothing with the Batterizer name on for them to ship.
Pretty sure they're saying that only so that people continue to believe they actually have existing stock to ship - when they have nothing produced at all.

There is absolutely no advantage for them to say this if they didn't actually have Batteriser branded product to ship.
It had been months since the last update, near everyone had forgotten about it all, so they either could have just let it die quietly, or if they now have the new Batteroo branded product to ship then they could have just said that.

A little part of me is wondering if Batteroo will still try to fly this puppy.  IF they do, then gaining some credibility will be vital - and one way of doing that is to take the opinion that they have no product to ship (which has been broadly expressed on this thread) and disprove it by shipping something (however impotent it may be).

Fan boys will then take this ONE point and celebrate it like the ultimate victory over the 'conspirators' - and claim everything espoused here is just as pure hogwash as the claim of not having a product to ship.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 28, 2016, 02:04:51 am

Quote from: amspire on October 28, 2016, 01:44:30 am

Their original campaign was for $30,000 (which was exceeded) and they made a custom IC? The IC they needed has to have better performance then anything currently on the market by a big margin.

Yep, and it will be interesting to see the die when someone dissolves it and looks under the microscope.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Faith on October 28, 2016, 02:10:26 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 28, 2016, 12:24:35 am

OMG they are shipping!

OMG time to get ready for another Batterwhatever EEVblog video then? This time with Dave and an actual product! Can't wait!~ :-+

The Return of Probes the Monkey!~

Quote from: StuUK on October 27, 2016, 09:24:28 am

Why would you want to buy one? Anyways don't hold your breath I don't think we will ever see one in the wild...

Because I have a penchant for ripping apart snake oil products.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on October 28, 2016, 02:38:16 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 28, 2016, 12:24:35 am

OMG they are shipping!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=265672;image)

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161028/a9955328c2c0b6848627ba0769d61695.jpg)



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on October 28, 2016, 02:53:00 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 28, 2016, 02:04:51 am

Quote from: amspire on October 28, 2016, 01:44:30 am

Their original campaign was for $30,000 (which was exceeded) and they made a custom IC? The IC they needed has to have better performance then anything currently on the market by a big margin.

Yep, and it will be interesting to see the die when someone dissolves it and looks under the microscope.

It will.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on October 28, 2016, 02:54:40 am

Now, I must admit I haven't gone looking ... but have there been any reports from people actually receiving them?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Towger on October 28, 2016, 03:03:38 am

Quote from: amspire on October 28, 2016, 01:44:30 am

It is still really odd. No photos, no YouTube video, no mention of any performance results. Nothing on their website.

I agree, Dave's conversion to religion maybe premature.  Still no photos, but some supporters have received theirs!  I just can't help feeling that there is more to this than meets the eye. The whole story may end up being quite sad and not in the way we want by disproveing their technical claims.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on October 28, 2016, 03:18:06 am

Quote from: ccs46 on October 28, 2016, 02:38:16 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 28, 2016, 12:24:35 am

OMG they are shipping!

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=265672;image (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=265672;image)

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161028/a9955328c2c0b6848627ba0769d61695.jpg (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161028/a9955328c2c0b6848627ba0769d61695.jpg)



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Also the last lawsuit was dismissed earlier today.
http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/307r4n75a/missouri-eastern-district-court/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/ (http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/307r4n75a/missouri-eastern-district-court/energizer-brands-llc-v-batteroo-inc/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 28, 2016, 04:04:06 am

Quote from: Towger on October 28, 2016, 03:03:38 am

Still no photos, but some supporters have received theirs!

I haven't seen any confirmations yet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on October 28, 2016, 04:47:11 am

Quote from: Towger on October 28, 2016, 03:03:38 am

Still no photos, but some supporters have received theirs! 

Just the supporters in Vietnam.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 28, 2016, 05:09:18 am

It works, it really does!

(http://i.imgur.com/EfNmoMQ.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on October 28, 2016, 08:19:18 am

Seems they also took the opportunity to change the project name. It used to be:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x)
But now it's

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-extend-battery-life-significantly (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-extend-battery-life-significantly)

Looks like the batteroo's are better than the batteriser's used to be, and they had to remove the 8x upper limit from the description  :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on October 28, 2016, 08:33:17 am

Yep, just saw the change and came here to post it, it's absolutely laughable, but maybe, just maybe it's them getting their ducks in a row to say 'Well, we never said how much it would improve battery life, did we?'
(http://i.imgur.com/b97MHwd.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jc101 on October 28, 2016, 08:49:21 am

A UK company took the bait and has them up on their website, I only hope they didn't pay up front.

http://www.2tech.co.uk/collections/smart-home-tech/products/batteriser (http://www.2tech.co.uk/collections/smart-home-tech/products/batteriser)

It will be interesting to see when they arrive is trading standards gets involved if they don't match their claims (they are still going with the 80% capacity being thrown away line).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on October 28, 2016, 09:00:49 am

The key phrase of this (and many other scams) is the 'up to' line.  Interesting to see they are still using the 'Batteriser' name, I thought the whole outcome of the lawsuit was that they had to change to Batteroo?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on October 28, 2016, 09:06:08 am

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on October 28, 2016, 09:00:49 am

The key phrase of this (and many other scams) is the 'up to' line.

Yes.  Indeed it is.

Quote

Interesting to see they are still using the 'Batteriser' name, I thought the whole outcome of the lawsuit was that they had to change to Batteroo?

I think you'll find any use of 'Batteriser' will likely be from old material.  'Batteroo' is what I'm seeing coming up on the current material.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on October 28, 2016, 09:22:31 am

Looks like 2tech had this ready to go for a while then, as both their page and the images show the 'Batteriser' logo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Towger on October 28, 2016, 09:25:16 am

Quote from: jc101 on October 28, 2016, 08:49:21 am

It will be interesting to see when they arrive is trading standards gets involved if they don't match their claims (they are still going with the 80% capacity being thrown away line).

Not just their advertising claims, but "micro-thin stainless steel" can be very sharp.  Not something you want little fingers struggling with to fit around batteries or fit into/out of tight battery compartments.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 28, 2016, 09:32:55 am

Quote from: PeterL on October 28, 2016, 08:19:18 am

Looks like the batteroo's are better than the batteriser's used to be, and they had to remove the 8x upper limit from the description  :D

Their website still has the ridiculous claim that only 20% of a batteries energy is used:
(http://i.imgur.com/9eKtyLp.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on October 28, 2016, 09:47:48 am

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on October 28, 2016, 08:33:17 am

... but maybe, just maybe it's them getting their ducks in a row to say 'Well, we never said how much it would improve battery life, did we?'

That suggests that:
a) They are really planning on shipping batterooriseries
b) They doubt the results of UL-Labs, "one of the oldest and most prestigious Labs", who "has performed independent Performance testing of a Garmin Golf GPS, side by side, with and without Batteroo." And already found 6x improvement.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 28, 2016, 11:46:06 am

My guess is this is a cash-in and run job - shift all the stock they have quickly to people who don't know any bettter and then disappear once people realise it's BS.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: andycsmith on October 28, 2016, 12:25:34 pm

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on October 28, 2016, 09:22:31 am

Looks like 2tech had this ready to go for a while then, as both their page and the images show the 'Batteriser' logo.

Yes I added a tweet asking why the name was wrong. Will see if I get a reply.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on October 28, 2016, 12:54:28 pm

Quote from: andycsmith on October 28, 2016, 12:25:34 pm

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on October 28, 2016, 09:22:31 am

Looks like 2tech had this ready to go for a while then, as both their page and the images show the 'Batteriser' logo.

Yes I added a tweet asking why the name was wrong. Will see if I get a reply.

The 2tech link was already mentioned here back in April:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg916115/?topicseen#msg916115 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg916115/?topicseen#msg916115)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 28, 2016, 01:05:03 pm

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 28, 2016, 11:46:06 am

My guess is this is a cash-in and run job - shift all the stock they have quickly to people who don't know any bettter and then disappear once people realise it's BS.

If that was the case they wouldn't have gone to the trouble to re-jig their website branding, they would have just buried it.
Remember, they took money from a VC company, they aren't going to be allowed to just dump and run, they have to see this through.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cyberdragon on October 28, 2016, 04:59:44 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on October 28, 2016, 01:05:03 pm

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on October 28, 2016, 11:46:06 am

My guess is this is a cash-in and run job - shift all the stock they have quickly to people who don't know any bettter and then disappear once people realise it's BS.

If that was the case they wouldn't have gone to the trouble to re-jig their website branding, they would have just buried it.
Remember, they took money from a VC company, they aren't going to be allowed to just dump and run, they have to see this through.

They will either ship a piece of metal and plastic with a logo on it, or a dangerous product. As we have mentioned before, whether it actually can use power from a low battery is not the biggest issue. The biggest issues are whether it will cause batteries to leak (you can't turn it off, so if you leave the batterisers in something they will always be draining power, so will actually shorten battery life by alot), and the fact that there is no way in hell this little thing can handle the amount of current from modern batteries. Not just the silicon but the tiny inductor and other components! It may even explode! >:D (Voltamort need only watch)

Moterized toys (Tickle-Me-Elmo)
BANG!
High power LED flashlight
BANG
Electric Razor
BANG!
Lawsuits from burning/exploding/leaking batterisers
BOOM HEADSHOT!

Bob might as well take his Arnold Shwarzenegger looking face and stick it between his legs! He's screwed either way now! :P :clap:

EDIT: Take guesses on the amount of current before it pops. If they actually do ship them we will test this. I recon 100mA tops.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MLXXXp on October 28, 2016, 05:05:52 pm

So does anyone know if the free 9V model, that Indiegogo supporters were promised in the update from about 9 months ago, will be included in the shipments currently being sent, or are they going to be shipped separately at a later date?  :-//

Quote

While you are waiting for delivery of your Batterisers, I also want to inform you that our engineering team has made a great deal of progress developing a Batteriser for 9 volt batteries.   As a token of our appreciation for your support, we have decided to send every single one of our Indiegogo backers a free 9 Volt Batteriser. The expected release of the 9v Batteriser will be in 2016, and proudly, our Indiegogo supporters will be the very first to enjoy it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on October 28, 2016, 06:25:41 pm

***GASP***

A new Indiegogo update!

Linky: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-extend-battery-life-significantly#/updates (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-extend-battery-life-significantly#/updates)

Content:

Quote

18 hours ago
Dear Friends,

I am extremely pleased to share  the exciting news with you that we have started shipping Batteroo sleeves to our Indiegogo supporters!    When we started down this journey to bring this game changing technology and capability to everyone, we were well aware that the technical challenge was going to be very difficult, but achievable.  The difficulty in designing the IC (Integrated Circuit) was extreme,  but we put together a team of experts that allowed us to meet this challenge head on. The difficulty in the miniaturization of this technology at high volume production is something that we did not fully appreciate at first. According to one of our contract manufacturing partners, the miniaturization of the technology to enable proper fit of our sleeve has probably been more challenging, at times, than that of an iPhone. 
On top of all this, we have had to coordinate with more than 10 different companies involved in manufacturing the sleeves across multiple countries and  continents, all with only a skeleton crew of a  startup. Hopefully you now appreciate my earlier comment about  being extremely pleased to bring you this news. It has been a long and difficult road, but as the saying goes, "Good things come to those who wait," and we very much appreciate your patience and support.
For those contributors who have already received their orders, we would really love for you to provide feedback about your experience.  As the shipments are occurring in waves, not all of you will have received your orders yet; the rest of our supporters  will receive their shipments throughout November. We are working on an automated solution that will allow you to leave reviews online. In the meantime, we would be grateful if you send an e-mail to info@batteroo.com and share your videos, photos, and exciting stories related to your Batteroo experience which we can share with the rest of our community.
We want to sincerely thank you again for your generous support and encouraging messages. By contributing to our crowdfunding campaign, you and thousands of other forward-thinking individuals from around the world have brought Batteroo to life. We can’t wait to hear about how you’ve been using your  Batteroo sleeves and how together we can make a lasting positive change on our environment.
Sincerely,
Bob Roohparvar
CEO | Batteroo, Inc.

EDIT: Well, crap. this was already posted a page ago, I didn't see it. oops

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on October 28, 2016, 07:12:17 pm

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on October 28, 2016, 08:33:17 am

Yep, just saw the change and came here to post it, it's absolutely laughable, but maybe, just maybe it's them getting their ducks in a row to say 'Well, we never said how much it would improve battery life, did we?'
(http://i.imgur.com/b97MHwd.png)

I wonder if it's significant that they chose to capitalize the word "Significantly" as if it's a proper noun/adjective? That would be quite improper.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on October 28, 2016, 07:56:58 pm

Many bakers point out that they haven;t asked for addresses?

(http://i.imgur.com/d8q93nN.png)

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 28, 2016, 08:15:13 pm

Quote from: firewalker on October 28, 2016, 07:56:58 pm

Many bakers point out that they haven;t asked for addresses?

Oooops!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: omgfire on October 28, 2016, 08:23:25 pm

Quote from: Cyberdragon on October 28, 2016, 04:59:44 pm

It may even explode! >:D (Voltamort need only watch)

Moterized toys (Tickle-Me-Elmo)
BANG!
High power LED flashlight
BANG
Electric Razor
BANG!
Lawsuits from burning/exploding/leaking batterisers
BOOM HEADSHOT!

Bob might as well take his Arnold Shwarzenegger looking face and stick it between his legs! He's screwed either way now! :P :clap:

EDIT: Take guesses on the amount of current before it pops. If they actually do ship them we will test this. I recon 100mA tops.

Kentli AA step-down converter can handle 2000mA though. http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Kentli%20AA%202800mWh%20(Blue)%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Kentli%20AA%202800mWh%20(Blue)%20UK.html)

(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/Batteries2013NiMH/Kentli%20AA%202800mWh%20(Blue)/DSC_9697.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Neilm on October 28, 2016, 10:02:44 pm

Quote from: Fungus on October 28, 2016, 08:15:13 pm

Quote from: firewalker on October 28, 2016, 07:56:58 pm

Many bakers point out that they haven;t asked for addresses?

Oooops!

They don't need the address of the backers - only the land fill that they have to ship what ever they have  marked Batteriser

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on October 28, 2016, 11:20:16 pm

You guys do not understand. He said "Dear Friends", he shipped the sleeves to his friends. He knows where they live. They soon will be posting exciting feedback. Friends of his that is.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on October 29, 2016, 04:49:04 am

Could this be another stalling tactic? It could buy them another 2-3 months while they try to find a buyer. Bit far fetched? Let me explain my reasoning...

- If the buyer does Google and stumbles across the IGG page, they'll see things such as "We believed it you!" and "THERE! Told you it wasn't a scam!" Consumer confidence is higher than it's been for a LONG time.
- Perfect time to buy, legal stuff is out of the way now, if the buyer waits until it hits the market and the product is an amazing success (!!), the company/product price will go up significantly because of the demand. For a buyer, this is the best time to lock down an exclusive contract or outright buy the company. 

Further, a LOT of the backer addresses are going to be outdated by now. Are they REALLY shipping to addresses that haven't been updated in over a YEAR?  Wouldn't it make sense it to send out an address confirmation before shipping out?

Another thing of note, "shipping" is vague in this context. Are they in the PROCESS of shipping? Meaning, they are packaging, labeling, etc.. but it hasn't actually LEFT the factory/warehouse? Yes, there is a throw-away line of "backers that have already received them". I'm going to put that is the category of a "white lie" to help sell the whole thing as there has been no reports of anyone ACTUALLY receiving them yet.

And remember, a lot of things can happen between "shipping" and them never making their way to customers. Tragic shipping accidents, interception by Big Battery, product compliance issue at the very last minute meaning they have to halt all shipping and wait for approval... when it comes to excuses, the sky is the limit, as we've witnessed time and time again with Batteroo :)   

Edit: Also lots of discussion on IGG page now about people not having filled in address details. The whole thing smells of them wanting to say they are "shipping", without actually shipping anything.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on October 29, 2016, 08:18:27 pm

 I have thus far only backed one project, and that was on Kickstarter. When the product was ready, everyone got an email survey asking for their shipping address, as well as several reminders that not everyone had returned their survey and if they wanted to get the product they paid for, they needed to get it filled out. No idea what Indiegogo offers campaigners, but surely they have some mechanism to get contributor information back to the campaigner to fulfill and rewards. If no one is being asked for shipping information, then this can only be another Roo brothers lie. My guess? A week or so will go buy and then we'll see Bob make another post, all apologetic that they forgot a critical step in the process - collecting the physical addresses of the contributors, so just another couple of weeks and we'll have your Batteroo in your hands.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on October 29, 2016, 11:38:11 pm

I can just imagine what the next update will be...

Dear friends. While we have been busy shipping our Batterisers to our backers, it appears due to a system error some backers did not receive an e-mail to confirm their shipping information. If this happened to you, e-mail noreply@batteriser.com and our warehouse team we'll get this fixed up for you! As mentioned in the last update some of our backers are already enjoying their Batterisers.

That should buy them another month or two and hopefully by then, a few more people will have forgotten all about it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 30, 2016, 08:01:10 am

Quote from: omgfire on October 28, 2016, 08:23:25 pm

Kentli AA step-down converter can handle 2000mA though.
(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/Batteries2013NiMH/Kentli%20AA%202800mWh%20(Blue)/DSC_9697.jpg)

Sure, but that's a LOT bigger than a Batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 30, 2016, 09:11:16 am

Yes, they most certainly have changed the campaign title to "significantly"
The x8 claim still remains in the campaign below, and on the website.
The title and URL used to be:
indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x/x/11596658#/story

(http://i.imgur.com/uRGj0py.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: omgfire on October 30, 2016, 09:28:04 am

Quote from: Fungus on October 30, 2016, 08:01:10 am

Sure, but that's a LOT bigger than a Batteriser.

That's not a 18650 cell. Kentli comes in AA (2000mA) and AAA (1000mA) sizes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 30, 2016, 09:47:30 am

IMPORTANT:
Once people get these things I think it's very important to do controlled testing on as many product as people can get their hands on.
I've set up Google spreadsheet that the public can edit here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18K9c2YAT0d0QABGYGpzItbvDcgfAQCRUtloEzzfXADU/edit?usp=sharing

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BravoV on October 30, 2016, 09:50:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 30, 2016, 09:47:30 am

I've set up Google spreadsheet that the public can edit here:

Are those Vietnamese mobs hired by Bob are allowed ?  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 30, 2016, 09:54:12 am

Quote from: BravoV on October 30, 2016, 09:50:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 30, 2016, 09:47:30 am

I've set up Google spreadsheet that the public can edit here:

Are those mobs from Vietnamese hired by Bob are allowed ?  :-DD

I was concerned about that, maybe it should be invite only so I can control who edits it?
Or maybe people post in a dedicated forum thread and I keep the spreadsheet up to date?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jc101 on October 30, 2016, 10:41:24 am

Perhaps with a quick pic of the setup too, so no pic no data gets put into the spreadsheet.  That may discourage 'bots' from trying to skew the data?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on October 30, 2016, 11:01:02 am

Can't remember if someone posted this, but here is a pic of the new ones branded with "Batteroo". It's old pic - July 31 2016

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=266039;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on October 30, 2016, 10:53:34 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on October 30, 2016, 09:54:12 am

Quote from: BravoV on October 30, 2016, 09:50:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 30, 2016, 09:47:30 am

I've set up Google spreadsheet that the public can edit here:

Are those mobs from Vietnamese hired by Bob are allowed ?  :-DD

I was concerned about that, maybe it should be invite only so I can control who edits it?
Or maybe people post in a dedicated forum thread and I keep the spreadsheet up to date?

Yeah, I think it shouldn't be open to tampering and sabotage. There have been at least one or two people in the Batteroo supporters camp who have not been above nasty and immature tactics and methods along the way, as we are all well aware.

But I can't WAIT to see the first reports of forum members receiving their units, and the first ACTUAL scientific field test results coming in.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on October 30, 2016, 11:15:51 pm

So you're expecting some of these things to actually be delivered to real people?   :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on October 30, 2016, 11:51:13 pm

Why not?   ;)


Let's play the game!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on October 31, 2016, 12:06:20 am

Quote from: wilfred on October 31, 2016, 12:00:13 am

Quote from: Delta on October 30, 2016, 11:15:51 pm

So you're expecting some of these things to actually be delivered to real people?   :-DD

They originally had optimistic goals that they won't meet, but has it been claimed they can't manufacture something with more modest specs? I thought the question is "how Modest?".

I really really really really hope they do deliver these things and Dave gets a few in his hands.  That will likely be his best video ever - he may retire on the back of his Batterooiser Magnum Opus, how could he ever beat that?
There will also by loads of videos from other engineers running tests in their labs, and even more videos from non-engineers with nothing more than consumer devices and clocks.  It would be a joy to behold!

But as has been mentioned by Dave and many others, as soon as these things get into the wild, the game is up.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on October 31, 2016, 02:29:00 am

Quote from: wilfred on October 31, 2016, 12:00:13 am

Quote from: Delta on October 30, 2016, 11:15:51 pm

So you're expecting some of these things to actually be delivered to real people?   :-DD

They originally had optimistic goals that they won't meet, but has it been claimed they can't manufacture something with more modest specs? I thought the question is "how Modest?".

Yes, this is the thing. If the Batteroo happens to increase battery life by 20%, they'll take that as a huge victory! They'll say the critics said it couldn't be done! They'll reframe 20% as "very significant" and then if everyone used Batteroo around the world, globally, it would lead to x amount of less batteries in landfill etc etc. But 20% ain't no 800%.

The question is as you stated, how modest can these gains be to call it a victory? Surely the Batteroo will work in some cases. Let's ignore the low level battery indicator, thin sharp stainless steel, potential shorting issues, long term battery drain... as they'll be glossed over because we're all most concerned about short term performance claims.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on October 31, 2016, 03:43:59 am

Quote from: quad on October 31, 2016, 02:29:00 am

The question is as you stated, how modest can these gains be to call it a victory?

In the world of spin control, marketing, hype and expectations management - they aren't going to have to show very much at all.  As long as there are some identifiable situations where there is a positive result - however small - the trumpets will sound and the banners held high.

The promise of 800% will be forgotten among the din created by the Batteroo faithful shouting from the rooftops: "It's here - and it works!!"

The fundamental issue of how well it works is a mere detail that will be glossed over - conveniently ignored ... and the engineering community will be condemned as being short-sighted and arrogant.  It's a marketing opportunity that is certainly going to get a lot of takers ... from the faithful, the hopeful and the ignorant - not to mention those who would never admit they were wrong.

IMHO, it will take several months for the hype to settle down and by then the impact of its performance being less than impressive will have melted away.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on October 31, 2016, 03:48:05 am

The question I would like to pose is this ....

Presuming they do ship and supply the campaign supporters with their promised Batteroos .... what then?

Will they be available in stores?  Will they be available online only?  Or will they fade into oblivion?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on October 31, 2016, 04:09:42 am

Quote from: Brumby on October 31, 2016, 03:48:05 am

The question I would like to pose is this ....

Presuming they do ship and supply the campaign supporters with their promised Batteroos .... what then?

Will they be available in stores?  Will they be available online only?  Or will they fade into oblivion?

In addition, if we do ever see these things on the street other than in recycle bins some device manufacturers may be required to amend their particular product specifications, or further still declare in documentation that the Batter-out sleeves should not be used under any circumstances or product operation and perhaps even warranty status may be compromised. 

You would think that Batter-who out of common decency could at least send Dave a few samples considering the substantial promotional material contained in this epic thread alone, not to mention the additional stuff that a Google search turns up because of people's diligent and tireless efforts, they are a selfish ungrateful lot as far as I can see.   ::)

 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: d-smes on October 31, 2016, 11:31:24 am

Quote from: EEVblog on October 28, 2016, 12:24:35 am

OMG they are shipping!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=265672;image)

Check out a key sentence in the third paragraph- 

Quote

We are working on an automated solution that will allow you to leave reviews online.

  In other words, a keyword search where reviews containing "crap", "fail", "ripoff", etc. go to the trash and reviews containing "wonderful", "I got 800%", etc. get featured on website and in new promotional campaign. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on October 31, 2016, 01:01:20 pm

Wait until some genius puts a Batterpoo on a Lithium cell, and it goes off in the hold of a plane, or some child's toy.  We'll have a whole new circus to enjoy!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on October 31, 2016, 01:18:07 pm

There is also a video on instagram. Kinda "cryptic" though. No pcb shown or the product in action.

https://instagram.fath3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/t50.2886-16/14091521_1059354024148962_793596247_n.mp4

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on October 31, 2016, 01:29:33 pm

Quote from: SL4P on October 31, 2016, 01:01:20 pm

Wait until some genius puts a Batterpoo on a Lithium cell, and it goes off in the hold of a plane, or some child's toy.  We'll have a whole new circus to enjoy!

If you're referring to one of these, it seems that this is BOUND to happen. Classic scenario: it's the middle of the night, the torch has dead batteries... you're not thinking about whether they're lithium or not...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=266417;image)

Seriously... what happens or could likely happen if one of these of these is inserted?

Edit: LOL, just noticed the Energiser packaging says 9X Longer Lasting.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on October 31, 2016, 01:32:53 pm

Quote from: firewalker on October 31, 2016, 01:18:07 pm

There is also a video on instagram. Kinda "cryptic" though. No pcb shown or the product in action.

https://instagram.fath3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/t50.2886-16/14091521_1059354024148962_793596247_n.mp4

Alexander.

That 'video' is a joke.  Seriously.  A few seconds, no commentary and no point.

All it could ever claim to show is they have a sleeve with the new name on it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 01, 2016, 06:53:28 am

Didn't Batteroo promise they were going to INTERNATIONAL EXPRESS [edit: exact wording they used is in my post below] deliver the products as a way to make up for the all the delays, at a significant expense to themselves, and a 9V version to boot???

... How long can we reasonably give Batteroo before we can say they have not shipped anything on the date they claimed? 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 01, 2016, 06:57:50 am

Here are the specific promises!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=266644;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=266646;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 01, 2016, 07:00:25 am

Damn, I came here thinking someone had actually got one. Disappointed again  :(

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BravoV on November 01, 2016, 07:05:00 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 01, 2016, 07:00:25 am

Damn, I came here thinking someone had actually got one. Disappointed again  :(

Proof that you've taken their bait.  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on November 01, 2016, 07:44:43 am

Quote from: firewalker on October 31, 2016, 01:18:07 pm

There is also a video on instagram. Kinda "cryptic" though. No pcb shown or the product in action.

https://instagram.fath3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/t50.2886-16/14091521_1059354024148962_793596247_n.mp4

Alexander.

Is that a pube hair hanging off the first T?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on November 01, 2016, 08:35:04 am

Quote from: quad on October 31, 2016, 01:29:33 pm

Quote from: SL4P on October 31, 2016, 01:01:20 pm

Wait until some genius puts a Batterpoo on a Lithium cell, and it goes off in the hold of a plane, or some child's toy.  We'll have a whole new circus to enjoy!

If you're referring to one of these, it seems that this is BOUND to happen. Classic scenario: it's the middle of the night, the torch has dead batteries... you're not thinking about whether they're lithium or not...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=266417;image)

Seriously... what happens or could likely happen if one of these of these is inserted?

Edit: LOL, just noticed the Energiser packaging says 9X Longer Lasting.

The voltage is only marginally higher, 1.8V unloaded and roughly 1.5 during discharge. Worst case the Batterizer just goes into passthrough mode, I doubt it will blow up.

Not sure where they get that 9X number from, but in high drain applications those lithium cells could last significantly longer than alkaline cells, even at 1A they still deliver roughly 3500mAh.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Someone on November 01, 2016, 09:53:17 am

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on November 01, 2016, 08:35:04 am

Not sure where they get that 9X number from, but in high drain applications those lithium cells could last significantly longer than alkaline cells, even at 1A they still deliver roughly 3500mAh.

9x is from the ISO digital camera test when compared to their alkaline batteries:
http://investors.energizerholdings.com/2012-03-26-Energizer-Improves-Performance-to-Worlds-Longest-Lasting-AA-Battery-in-High-Tech-Devices (http://investors.energizerholdings.com/2012-03-26-Energizer-Improves-Performance-to-Worlds-Longest-Lasting-AA-Battery-in-High-Tech-Devices)
Not the worst comparison ever even though no modern camera would have such a cycle on the batteries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: omgfire on November 01, 2016, 11:04:41 am

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on November 01, 2016, 08:35:04 am

Not sure where they get that 9X number from, but in high drain applications those lithium cells could last significantly longer than alkaline cells, even at 1A they still deliver roughly 3500mAh.

They are joy for super low drain applications too. Storage limits for Duracell coppertop are 25°C and 65% humidity. Last time I bought alkaline batteries, half of them leaked within 3 years. So, no more alkaline batteries for me.
20 years / less than 3 years = that is 7x improvement in my experience. Your mileage may vary.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=266685;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 01, 2016, 08:24:32 pm

Quote from: BravoV on November 01, 2016, 07:05:00 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 01, 2016, 07:00:25 am

Damn, I came here thinking someone had actually got one. Disappointed again  :(

Proof that you've taken their bait.  :-DD

Are we going to run a pool on whether it's all just another lie?

I mean...where are the photos?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 01, 2016, 10:06:43 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 01, 2016, 08:24:32 pm

Are we going to run a pool on whether it's all just another lie?

Who thinks it is not a lie?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 01, 2016, 11:05:45 pm

Batteroo are "under review" by IGG

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=266882;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 02, 2016, 02:08:42 am

Quote from: quad on November 01, 2016, 11:05:45 pm

Batteroo are "under review" by IGG

If that's true it could be the reason for the recent shipping updates. It would not be the first time IGG have tapped Batteroo on the shoulder and they have promptly responded publicly with an update.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Faith on November 02, 2016, 04:10:12 am

Quote from: omgfire on November 01, 2016, 11:04:41 am

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on November 01, 2016, 08:35:04 am

Not sure where they get that 9X number from, but in high drain applications those lithium cells could last significantly longer than alkaline cells, even at 1A they still deliver roughly 3500mAh.

They are joy for super low drain applications too. Storage limits for Duracell coppertop are 25°C and 65% humidity. Last time I bought alkaline batteries, half of them leaked within 3 years. So, no more alkaline batteries for me.
20 years / less than 3 years = that is 7x improvement in my experience. Your mileage may vary.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=266685;image)

Yep, I use lithium cells exclusively, and especially on devices with very low drain (since they are the most likely to result in a leak from long-term storage and usage).

The only time I saw a lithium cell leak actually just happened a week ago on an alarm panel with an internal backup battery which I just learned was installed 15 years ago.

Even my remote controls have lithium batteries in them haha. Unfortunately most consumers only see and care about the upfront cost of batteries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 02, 2016, 05:15:00 am

Bob, Frankie, Ali,

If you are truly shipping product, I will pay you 5X your retail price plus FedEx costs to get a set of your  products in my hands by the end of this week.

Please contact me via PM. My AMEX is standing by.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 02, 2016, 06:22:01 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 02, 2016, 05:15:00 am

Bob, Frankie, Ali,

If you are truly shipping product, I will pay you 5X your retail price plus FedEx costs to get a set of your  products in my hands by the end of this week.

Please contact me via PM. My AMEX is standing by.

 :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 02, 2016, 07:25:38 am

That's your entire annual supply of funny things all used up in one go, I personally would have saved a few for later in the thread myself but I ran out months ago.   :(

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on November 02, 2016, 02:34:55 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on November 02, 2016, 07:25:38 am

That's your entire annual supply of funny things all used up in one go, I personally would have saved a few for later in the thread myself but I ran out months ago.   :(

Likewise for my supply of popcorn  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 02, 2016, 02:42:05 pm

Quote from: WN1X on November 02, 2016, 02:34:55 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on November 02, 2016, 07:25:38 am

That's your entire annual supply of funny things all used up in one go, I personally would have saved a few for later in the thread myself but I ran out months ago.   :(

Likewise for my supply of popcorn  :-DD

I stopped wasting them on The Batteroo Brothers a long time ago.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 02, 2016, 02:43:41 pm

Quote from: ez24 on November 01, 2016, 10:06:43 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 01, 2016, 08:24:32 pm

Are we going to run a pool on whether it's all just another lie?

Who thinks it is not a lie?

Not me. If they had any boxes of production Batterisers/oos they'd have posted some pics. Time for everybody on IGG to call their bluff.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on November 02, 2016, 02:46:42 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 02, 2016, 02:43:41 pm

Quote from: ez24 on November 01, 2016, 10:06:43 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 01, 2016, 08:24:32 pm

Are we going to run a pool on whether it's all just another lie?

Who thinks it is not a lie?

Not me. If they had any boxes of production Batterisers/oos they'd have posted some pics. Time for everybody on IGG to call their bluff.

Be better having a pool on what the excuse will be....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 02, 2016, 02:47:44 pm

Quote from: StuUK on November 02, 2016, 02:46:42 pm

Be better having a pool on what the excuse will be....

 :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on November 02, 2016, 02:59:26 pm

How about...

1) Unfortunately due to shipping nervousness around batteries, our shipment has mistakenly been held up whilst undergoing inspection to determine that shipment of such is safe.
2) We have recently been informed that our new name of Batteroo is actually an offensive term in some countries so we are having a rethink about further rebranding but luckily we prevented any shipments from leaving and have averted offending any of our backers.
3) Our first shipment was successfully sent to our first small group of backers but have been discovered to be defective due to mishandling by our shippers.
4) Unfortunately a company (we cannot name for legal reasons) has instigated action against us and we are forced to withhold shipping pending a legal decision. This is more evidence of big battery corp flexing their muscles. Apologies to our backers for yet more delays beyond our control.

and so on and so forth.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 02, 2016, 04:21:56 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 02, 2016, 05:15:00 am

Bob, Frankie, Ali,

If you are truly shipping product, I will pay you 5X your retail price plus FedEx costs to get a set of your  products in my hands by the end of this week.

Please contact me via PM. My AMEX is standing by.

Hello?  Bob?  Frankie?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on November 02, 2016, 06:14:27 pm

a) The Chinese government have forbidden us from exporting any engineered metal products from the mainland to western countries, due to the current geopolitical climate in the South China Sea, and the possible requirements for use in defence/armaments.

b) The manufacturer won't release the containers due to their concern that in the event he becomes POTUS,  Donald Trump won't allow payment to chinese entities from US financial institutions.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Neilm on November 02, 2016, 08:00:48 pm

Quote from: StuUK on November 02, 2016, 02:59:26 pm

2) We have recently been informed that our new name of Batteroo is actually an offensive term in some countries so we are having a rethink about further rebranding but luckily we prevented any shipments from leaving and have averted offending any of our backers.

It has now been realised that calling it Batteroo could mean it is confused with a kangaroo...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 03, 2016, 01:02:32 am

a) product certification issues - UL/CE/FCC - thought it was done but due to the new ASIC they have to get it re-certified - thankfully they found out JUST before the first box was shipped!
b) the shipping container containing EVERY SINGLE BATTEROO was put on the wrong ship by mistake of the Logistics Company and they are taking steps to locate and recover it (and posts a picture of generic shipping containers out at sea)
c) Big Battery have Spies working Everywhere and have Intercepted the Shipment to prevent this Revolutionary Technology from Reaching the Light of Day

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on November 03, 2016, 02:50:10 am

Our shipment of Batteroo's have been destroyed in a motor vehicle collision and subsequent vehicle fire while being transported from the factory to our shipping team. The team at Batteroo apologies to all backers however this unforeseen accident was beyond our control.

(http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20151109/7427ea210acc17aa6eec11.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on November 03, 2016, 03:14:23 am

I think they probably do have a product, but it is unlikely to be anywhere as good as they were implying. They also have to sell far more then the IGG campaign, so I think that this is all about locking in distributers/resellers. They probably have to make a loss to satisfy the IGG supporters. If a Batteriser can sort of work at 500mA, it would still be usable in many applications. Might only do 250mA. Who knows? Who knows how much RF noise it will generate at full load? How much problem will audio noise generated from the beat frequency mixing of multiple batterisers make?

If they did get a new IC designed (or more likely, they got an existing IC repackaged to smaller size), they probably need a production run in the millions to make sense. The last thing they want is annoying bloggers tearing the product apart before the reseller lock-in and media hype takes place. They want to have dumb sites that do test such as take a torch with NiMh batteries and show how it suddenly gets much brighter with the Batteriser. "Hallelujah it works! The critics were all totally wrong!".  With the right "Changing The World" publicity on mainstream non-technical sites, they could make a big profit on sales even if the device is not solving any problems.

If they are dependant on selling millions, the whole thing can still fail if they cannot lock-in the sales, or if the devices coming off the production line are just not reliable.

The "harder to make then iPhone" comments sound like someone hasn't done the right engineering and that is not a good sign.  Production is not the place to discover that kind of problem.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 03, 2016, 08:40:02 am

Quote from: amspire on November 03, 2016, 03:14:23 am

I think they probably do have a product

...it's just that nobody has ever seen it and nobody at Batteroo owns a camera to take a picture of Bob holding one.

Uhuh.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BravoV on November 03, 2016, 08:50:06 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 03, 2016, 08:40:02 am

Quote from: amspire on November 03, 2016, 03:14:23 am

I think they probably do have a product

...it's just that nobody has ever seen it and nobody at Batteroo owns a camera to take a picture of Bob holding one.

Uhuh.

Whats wrong with camera shy ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 03, 2016, 08:55:14 am

Quote from: BravoV on November 03, 2016, 08:50:06 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 03, 2016, 08:40:02 am

Quote from: amspire on November 03, 2016, 03:14:23 am

I think they probably do have a product

...it's just that nobody has ever seen it and nobody at Batteroo owns a camera to take a picture of Bob holding one.

Uhuh.

Whats wrong with camera shy ?

 :-DD 

(https://scontent-mad1-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s640x640/sh0.08/e35/13767466_232950287100332_2003190192_n.jpg?ig_cache_key=MTMxMzMzNzA3MDg1MzE5MTc4Mg%3D%3D.2)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on November 03, 2016, 09:11:31 am

Gees, I've said it before and I'll say it again... I wouldn't trust them to sell a used car. That smirk screams "I've taken/I'm going to take all your money". At least Frankie is being useful as an awards stand. Someone doesn't know how to use a still camera though, that flash is awful.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on November 03, 2016, 10:32:07 am

My bet is "The manufacturing company has gone bankrupt and aren't releasing the product as they are now in receivership". That could potentially give them an infinite delay.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 03, 2016, 01:18:13 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 03, 2016, 08:40:02 am

Quote from: amspire on November 03, 2016, 03:14:23 am

I think they probably do have a product

...it's just that nobody has ever seen it and nobody at Batteroo owns a camera to take a picture of Bob holding one.

Here you go!
(http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/external?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcontent6.video.news.com.au%2FhmNzVpdTrtCa-jbW00HVmJVodIvoWeIa%2Fpromo257729565&width=650&api_key=kq7wnrk4eun47vz9c5xuj3mc)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on November 03, 2016, 04:02:05 pm

That's a poor quality store display dummy holding up one of the 'old' Batteriser branded parts from around 2014-15

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on November 03, 2016, 07:14:04 pm

So, it takes longer than 7 days to ship a small package? The suspense is killing me, but I guess people in this thread were right.  IGG got complaints, tapped them on the shoulder, the following conversation ensued:

Code: [Select]

A:  So IGG has said we need to update or they will kick us off, what should we do?
B:  Just say that due to big battery we can't ship at the moment
A:  But we've already done that, the lawsuit is finished
B:  Ok, then say we are shipping them to our distribution centres!
A:  We already did *that* three months ago and said it would take 2 months
B:  Oh, erm, just say that we are shipping them to our IGG customers!
A:  But what happens when customers don't receive their product?
B:  Oooh, I dunno.  Can you come back later?  I've got Walmart coming in this afternoon.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Towger on November 03, 2016, 08:41:12 pm

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on November 03, 2016, 07:14:04 pm

So, it takes longer than 7 days to ship a small package?

China post 30 to 40 days. Your Batteroos should be with you by Christmas.
(http://www.trustednumbers.co.uk/images/organisations/94555.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on November 03, 2016, 09:14:52 pm

But but but, they are already in their 'distribution centres' /sarcasm

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 03, 2016, 11:07:53 pm

Hello? Bob? Anyone home?

Where are the photos and testimonials of the happy Batteroo clients doing cartwheels with their new Batteroozers?

If you really have Batteroos to ship, my offer is still good through tomorrow. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 04, 2016, 01:13:34 am

The latest comments from Bob Lucas Jr. on the IGG campaign page are gone.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 04, 2016, 01:22:24 am

That Appnoon mob are still pumping them out, there are no new pictures that I could find from Batteroo so perhaps their camera batteries are flat.   :palm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5nvu4Owb8s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5nvu4Owb8s)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 04, 2016, 01:29:16 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on November 04, 2016, 01:22:24 am

That Appnoon mob are still pumping them out, there are no new pictures that I could find from Batteroo so perhaps their camera batteries are flat.   :palm:

How much are they paying for this rubbish?

From the archives for amusement whilst we wait for the delivery truck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkfdm8soHyU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkfdm8soHyU)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 04, 2016, 01:31:54 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 04, 2016, 01:13:34 am

The latest comments from Bob Lucas Jr. on the IGG campaign page are gone.

Interesting. He was the person doing an excellent job rallying the troops and getting people to take action. He obviously succeeded and they're being childish about it.

Can someone post up on IGG, can they just post one single box to one single backer. Perhaps to Bob Lucas Jr! Why not silence the critics in a more classy manner? Forget big shipping issues. Just deliver ONE SINGLE ORDER. 

Edit: Also, I thought the days of us having to take screenshots because of Batteroo deleting valid and reasonable posts were in the past. *sigh*

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 04, 2016, 04:35:59 am

From Wiki

Quote

Potential dangers

David Jones on EEV Blog raised the concern that because the Batteriser acts as a ground for the boost converter circuit, any nick in the insulation might result in a direct short, and potentially a fire.[16]

Is this true?  This post is too long ot go through to see if this is true.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on November 04, 2016, 05:01:35 am

Quote from: ez24 on November 04, 2016, 04:35:59 am

From Wiki

Quote

Potential dangers

David Jones on EEV Blog raised the concern that because the Batteriser acts as a ground for the boost converter circuit, any nick in the insulation might result in a direct short, and potentially a fire.[16]

Is this true?  This post is too long ot go through to see if this is true.

Hmm, well, that's why they're pink now rather than silver coloured. They "fixed" that issue by coating the prototypes' metal outer in a non-conductive pink/red coating of something...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 04, 2016, 06:21:01 am

Quote from: ez24 on November 04, 2016, 04:35:59 am

From Wiki

Quote

Potential dangers
David Jones on EEV Blog raised the concern that because the Batteriser acts as a ground for the boost converter circuit, any nick in the insulation might result in a direct short, and potentially a fire.[16]

Is this true?  This post is too long ot go through to see if this is true.

Yes, I said that in my original video. Batteriser fixed the issue by insulating the metal. Still a potential issue I think, that thin stainless steel is going to be sharp.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 04, 2016, 06:22:58 am

The other most recent negative comment on IGG is now gone. They are obviously deleting comments again, this isn't the first time.
We should screen capture these.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 04, 2016, 06:25:39 am

The most recent negative comments remaining:

(http://i.imgur.com/WiUJdVd.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 04, 2016, 07:07:26 am

Typical reaction from a group incapable of and/or unwilling to silence the critics by the most effective means possible: delivering a product.

It would seem the latest fanfare about shipping Batteroos is nothing more than an another empty promise ... but are we really surprised?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 04, 2016, 07:55:47 am

This extract from the same Wiki page mentioned above, you don’t need to be named Julius to ask why is it so.    :-//

Quote

Roohparvar noted that many critics have drawn conclusions without actually having tried the product.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batteriser (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batteriser)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on November 04, 2016, 07:59:18 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 04, 2016, 01:13:34 am

The latest comments from Bob Lucas Jr. on the IGG campaign page are gone.

Question now is who deleted this. Can Batteroo do that themselves? Or did IGG do this on request of Batteroo.

I guess it's the latter, which makes clear on who's side IGG is.

The latest comment from Bob Lucas that I have seen (and is now gone) wasn't even that harsh. It was a strong advice to Batteroo to give more insight in the process of this project, and show pictures. There was also a link to another 'good' IGG project in it.   (maybe that link triggered the delete?)

It wouldn't suprise me if Bob Lucas is now banned from IGG

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 04, 2016, 07:59:40 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on November 04, 2016, 07:55:47 am

This extract from the same Wiki page mentioned above, you don’t need to be named Julius to ask why is it so.    :-//

Quote

Roohparvar noted that many critics have drawn conclusions without actually having tried the product.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batteriser (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batteriser)

That's because:
a) It's engineering, you can do that with, you know, numbers and datasheets.
b) He hasn't shipped long ago promised review units to the media. Nothing, zip, zilch, nada.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 04, 2016, 08:00:33 am

Quote from: PeterL on November 04, 2016, 07:59:18 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 04, 2016, 01:13:34 am

The latest comments from Bob Lucas Jr. on the IGG campaign page are gone.

Question now is who deleted this. Can Batteroo do that themselves? Or did IGG do this on request of Batteroo.

I believe campaign owners can delete comments.
IGG - The Campaign Safe Space!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rt on November 04, 2016, 08:51:58 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 04, 2016, 06:21:01 am

Yes, I said that in my original video. Batteriser fixed the issue by insulating the metal. Still a potential issue I think, that thin stainless steel is going to be sharp.

Yes, the stainless steel edges will be sharp.  This is part of their ingenious pivot to take on BIG RAZOR BLADE as well as BIG BATTERY.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on November 04, 2016, 09:00:22 am

Quote from: rt on November 04, 2016, 08:51:58 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 04, 2016, 06:21:01 am

Yes, I said that in my original video. Batteriser fixed the issue by insulating the metal. Still a potential issue I think, that thin stainless steel is going to be sharp.

Yes, the stainless steel edges will be sharp.  This is part of their ingenious pivot to take on BIG RAZOR BLADE as well as BIG BATTERY.

As far as I know, Gillette Razors and Duracell batteries belong to the same company, so "big razor" and "big battery" are in this together!

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on November 04, 2016, 09:13:18 am

Quote from: McBryce on November 04, 2016, 09:00:22 am

Quote from: rt on November 04, 2016, 08:51:58 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 04, 2016, 06:21:01 am

Yes, I said that in my original video. Batteriser fixed the issue by insulating the metal. Still a potential issue I think, that thin stainless steel is going to be sharp.

Yes, the stainless steel edges will be sharp.  This is part of their ingenious pivot to take on BIG RAZOR BLADE as well as BIG BATTERY.

As far as I know, Gillette Razors and Duracell batteries belong to the same company, so "big razor" and "big battery" are in this together!


McBryce.

Yes Procter and Gamble along with toothbrushes amongst other things....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on November 04, 2016, 11:04:52 am

Quote from: McBryce on November 04, 2016, 09:00:22 am

As far as I know, Gillette Razors and Duracell batteries belong to the same company, so "big razor" and "big battery" are in this together!

Duracell is owned by Berkshire:
- http://www.nasdaq.com/article/pg-completes-duracell-battery-sale-to-buffets-berkshire-cm587119 (http://www.nasdaq.com/article/pg-completes-duracell-battery-sale-to-buffets-berkshire-cm587119)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duracell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duracell)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on November 04, 2016, 11:37:51 am

Quote from: McBryce on November 04, 2016, 09:00:22 am

Quote from: rt on November 04, 2016, 08:51:58 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 04, 2016, 06:21:01 am

Yes, I said that in my original video. Batteriser fixed the issue by insulating the metal. Still a potential issue I think, that thin stainless steel is going to be sharp.

Yes, the stainless steel edges will be sharp.  This is part of their ingenious pivot to take on BIG RAZOR BLADE as well as BIG BATTERY.

As far as I know, Gillette Razors and Duracell batteries belong to the same company, so "big razor" and "big battery" are in this together!

McBryce.

Ooooohhhhhh!  It all starts to make sense now.  The Batterbros threaten the might of the globalist NWO corporations who have the might of Aussie dramatic arts graduates doing their evil bidding.  No wonder these brave warriors have been unable to deliver a single bloody unit...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 04, 2016, 11:55:22 am

Quote from: Delta on November 04, 2016, 11:37:51 am

Ooooohhhhhh!  It all starts to make sense now.  The Batterbros threaten the might of the globalist NWO corporations who have the might of Aussie dramatic arts graduates doing their evil bidding.  No wonder these brave warriors have been unable to deliver a single bloody unit...

Can any Swiss viewers help me open a numbered bank account there? The Illuminati won't deposit anywhere else.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on November 04, 2016, 12:02:44 pm

Quote from: wilfred on November 04, 2016, 12:00:08 pm

I hate to deliberately appear dense, but, can someone explain the reference to "Aussie dramatic arts graduates" please. I had to search on "NWO" but the other has me mystified.

Look up Dave's LinkedIn profile and all should become clear.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 04, 2016, 12:18:57 pm

Quote from: wilfred on November 04, 2016, 12:00:08 pm

Quote from: Delta on November 04, 2016, 11:37:51 am

Ooooohhhhhh!  It all starts to make sense now.  The Batterbros threaten the might of the globalist NWO corporations who have the might of Aussie dramatic arts graduates doing their evil bidding.  No wonder these brave warriors have been unable to deliver a single bloody unit...

I hate to deliberately appear dense, but, can someone explain the reference to "Aussie dramatic arts graduates" please. I had to search on "NWO" but the other has me mystified.

Bob isn't too bright:
http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/batteriser-battery-life-extender-scam-or-saviour-20150915-gjmrql.html (http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/batteriser-battery-life-extender-scam-or-saviour-20150915-gjmrql.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on November 04, 2016, 01:12:25 pm

Quote from: madires on November 04, 2016, 11:04:52 am

Quote from: McBryce on November 04, 2016, 09:00:22 am

As far as I know, Gillette Razors and Duracell batteries belong to the same company, so "big razor" and "big battery" are in this together!

Duracell is owned by Berkshire:
- http://www.nasdaq.com/article/pg-completes-duracell-battery-sale-to-buffets-berkshire-cm587119 (http://www.nasdaq.com/article/pg-completes-duracell-battery-sale-to-buffets-berkshire-cm587119)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duracell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duracell)

Oops, looks like I'm not up to date. That deal must have been kept relatively quiet, I don't remember seeing anything about that.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 06, 2016, 10:35:34 pm

They must be using the same shipping company my mailing house for the uRulers
https://www.eevblog.com/2013/12/31/traps-for-even-simple-successful-crowd-funded-projects/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2013/12/31/traps-for-even-simple-successful-crowd-funded-projects/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: johndoe123 on November 07, 2016, 05:07:57 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 04, 2016, 11:55:22 am

Quote from: Delta on November 04, 2016, 11:37:51 am

Ooooohhhhhh!  It all starts to make sense now.  The Batterbros threaten the might of the globalist NWO corporations who have the might of Aussie dramatic arts graduates doing their evil bidding.  No wonder these brave warriors have been unable to deliver a single bloody unit...

Can any Swiss viewers help me open a numbered bank account there? The Illuminati won't deposit anywhere else.

I might help with that

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 10, 2016, 11:16:16 am

See if they delete Bob's latest comment:
(http://i.imgur.com/39tJBod.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WattSekunde on November 10, 2016, 12:18:56 pm

It's such an obvious scam :wtf:. It looks even worse to me. Did they try to sell as much as possible over there website? But for what earnings? Ruined personal reputation + Indiegogo=400.000$ + x$? That is not so much money for there "big" and well paid management team :blah:.  And, if I remember correct, some top qualified engineers :-/O + awesome chipdevelopment team  :-BROKE + hard working production team and production facility :horse: + .... It smells so bad.  :palm:

But I feel well entertained.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2016, 12:38:13 pm

So that's now two working weeks since the shipping announcement and not a single delivery?
And remember, in the same post they indicated that they thought some people would have already gotten them  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 11, 2016, 01:21:36 pm

If I remember correctly I saw this announcement already a year ago.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on November 11, 2016, 01:32:38 pm

This guy claims he has received his shipment, but he could just be a Roohparvar shill.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 11, 2016, 01:41:20 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on November 11, 2016, 01:32:38 pm

This guy claims he has received his shipment, but he could just be a Roohparvar shill.

Nice. Only one has received the shipment. Maybe the rest are lost or something. I wonder why Alex is requested to take a picture it the other backers are to receive their shipments any day now.

I haven't been following the thread for a long time any more, but did Bob post any pictures on assembly, manufacturing and shipment? I would be surprised if he did. Maybe he doesn't have a camera or he cannot transfer the pictures from his camera to his web site.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on November 11, 2016, 01:50:14 pm

"Looks" great. No mention of how it works  :horse:

I suspect that 'shipping' meant they're on a container ship, rather than being sent from the factory by air. It's a vague enough term that it may well not mean individual units are being sent to their end customers - just that a boat load of stuff has left the factory.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 11, 2016, 01:54:44 pm

What I have heard, it is not that unusual that sometimes the containers may get lost or fall off a ship.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 11, 2016, 01:56:17 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on November 11, 2016, 01:41:20 pm

I haven't been following the thread for a long time any more, but did Bob post any pictures on assembly, manufacturing and shipment?

No.

Quote from: Kalvin on November 11, 2016, 01:41:20 pm

Maybe he doesn't have a camera or he cannot transfer the pictures from his camera to his web site.

Riiiiight.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 11, 2016, 01:58:46 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 11, 2016, 01:56:17 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on November 11, 2016, 01:41:20 pm

I haven't been following the thread for a long time any more, but did Bob post any pictures on assembly, manufacturing and shipment?

No.

Thanks. I will check again November next year.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on November 11, 2016, 02:04:48 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on November 11, 2016, 01:54:44 pm

What I have heard, it is not that unusual that sometimes the containers may get lost or fall off a ship.

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/029/367/shipment-of-fail.jpg?1318992465)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on November 11, 2016, 03:21:59 pm

There's another person saying they've received it in the "Visitor Posts" section at https://www.facebook.com/Batteroo/ (https://www.facebook.com/Batteroo/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BravoV on November 11, 2016, 03:30:11 pm

Those who received the 1st batch are Bob's neighbors, hence no addresses are needed. <Excuse no. ? , geez , I lost count, help me>

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on November 11, 2016, 03:33:52 pm

Quote from: BravoV on November 11, 2016, 03:30:11 pm

Those who received the 1st batch are Bob's neighbors, hence no addresses are needed. <Excuse no. ? , geez , I lost count, help me>

Yep, "Alex Malek" used to work at Flextronics with Bob - so he isn't independant
https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexmalek1 (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexmalek1)

And I think "Hibbo" might be fake - he was the one who asked back in January about using Batterisers in electric cars (deleted but still in Google cache)
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BBaiAaUB7FQJ:https://www.facebook.com/Batteriser/posts/958596294188021+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&client=firefox-b (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BBaiAaUB7FQJ:https://www.facebook.com/Batteriser/posts/958596294188021+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&client=firefox-b)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on November 11, 2016, 08:08:08 pm

Our shipping fleet... it may take a while.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: johndoe123 on November 11, 2016, 10:32:19 pm

Quote

Nice. Only one has received the shipment.

and he is wearing a tie

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2016, 10:58:22 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on November 11, 2016, 01:32:38 pm

This guy claims he has received his shipment, but he could just be a Roohparvar shill.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=269468;image)

LOL!
He's a mate of Bob's!
Worked at Flextronics!  :-DD
https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexmalek1 (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexmalek1)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 11, 2016, 11:09:50 pm

Quote from: Kean on November 11, 2016, 03:33:52 pm

And I think "Hibbo" might be fake - he was the one who asked back in January about using Batterisers in electric cars (deleted but still in Google cache)
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BBaiAaUB7FQJ:https://www.facebook.com/Batteriser/posts/958596294188021+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&client=firefox-b (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BBaiAaUB7FQJ:https://www.facebook.com/Batteriser/posts/958596294188021+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&client=firefox-b)

Well spotted.
So the first to report getting one just happens to be Bob's former work colleague, and the 2nd is questionable.

I've got to admit that I'm amazed at this projects ability to continuously deliver in stupidity, drama and intrigue! It is our industries soap opera.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on November 11, 2016, 11:14:50 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 11, 2016, 11:09:50 pm

Quote from: Kean on November 11, 2016, 03:33:52 pm

And I think "Hibbo" might be fake - he was the one who asked back in January about using Batterisers in electric cars (deleted but still in Google cache)
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BBaiAaUB7FQJ:https://www.facebook.com/Batteriser/posts/958596294188021+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&client=firefox-b (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BBaiAaUB7FQJ:https://www.facebook.com/Batteriser/posts/958596294188021+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&client=firefox-b)

Well spotted.
So the first to report getting one just happens to be Bob's former work colleague, and the 2nd is questionable.

I've got to admit that I'm amazed at this projects ability to continuously deliver in stupidity, drama and intrigue! It is our industries soap opera.

Maybe "Hibbo" has bought the entire shipment to use on his Tesla car?  That would explain why no one else in the world has received any...!  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on November 12, 2016, 01:44:06 am

Hi,

Maybe they are related? This could just be a case of 'Bob's your uncle'.  :-//

[That used car salesman smirk smile looks very familiar]

Hibbo = Hi Bob

I am just amazed that we have no photographs. A couple of photographs would really help at this time.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 12, 2016, 03:38:21 am

Another supposed report of arrival, again on Facebook:
(http://i.imgur.com/EXUJSqu.png)

Sounds pretty vague, and that user last posted on Facebook in Feb 2014  ::)

So the first three reports are either vague/suspect, or connected to Bob personally. What are the odds?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on November 12, 2016, 04:33:01 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 11, 2016, 12:38:13 pm

So that's now two working weeks since the shipping announcement and not a single delivery?
And remember, in the same post they indicated that they thought some people would have already gotten them  :-//

Maybe the first  people that received them were required to sign an NDA?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on November 12, 2016, 04:39:27 am

Quote from: Kalvin on November 11, 2016, 01:54:44 pm

What I have heard, it is not that unusual that sometimes the containers may get lost or fall off a ship.

I can see it now...:  "Sorry guys we lost all of our Batteroo sleeves because some Somali pirates took over the container ship they were on and are demanding ransom.. It's gonna take us a few more months to get the insurance rebate and for the shipping company to pay the ransom. We need to talk to our insurance company to get our money back to be able to start making some more Batteroo sleeves to replace the lost sleeves. Stay tuned..." :lol: :lol:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on November 12, 2016, 05:42:53 am

Quote from: ccs46

... Maybe the first  people that received them were required to sign an NDA? 

NDA > Never Did Arrive ? No Davis Available ? Nitwits Do Ask ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 12, 2016, 11:31:00 am

How long will this post last?

(http://i.imgur.com/JtPJ2H4.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on November 12, 2016, 02:27:45 pm

... and he got three shipments none the less.
Not one of those old fashioned single shipments, no s'reee.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on November 12, 2016, 04:43:40 pm

Uh, Hibbo, that isn't how this works...

(https://s15.postimg.org/yj24n53uz/Capture.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on November 12, 2016, 09:22:19 pm

Bwahhhhaaaa!  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on November 12, 2016, 10:42:20 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 12, 2016, 03:38:21 am

Another supposed report of arrival, again on Facebook:
(http://i.imgur.com/EXUJSqu.png)

Sounds pretty vague, and that user last posted on Facebook in Feb 2014  ::)

Of the 2 visitor posts to Rudy's for 2012, one is from a relative of Hibbo, so we can assume Hibbo and Rudy are connected or probably the same person.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 13, 2016, 12:18:02 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 12, 2016, 04:43:40 pm

Uh, Hibbo, that isn't how this works...

(https://s15.postimg.org/yj24n53uz/Capture.png)

There isn't enough face palm to adequately express my reaction to this.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on November 13, 2016, 01:07:14 am

Quote from: rich on November 12, 2016, 10:42:20 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 12, 2016, 03:38:21 am

Another supposed report of arrival, again on Facebook:
(http://i.imgur.com/EXUJSqu.png)

Sounds pretty vague, and that user last posted on Facebook in Feb 2014  ::)

Of the 2 visitor posts to Rudy's for 2012, one is from a relative of Hibbo, so we can assume Hibbo and Rudy are connected or probably the same person.

Hibbo's facebook is also remarkably sparse with very, very few posts and "friend" comments

EDIT: compared with 3 hours ago, hibberoo's page is now completely blank except for a profile pic.  Previously there were more random photos of some guy with a couple comments.  All of which only existed after November last year

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 13, 2016, 01:19:56 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 13, 2016, 12:18:02 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 12, 2016, 04:43:40 pm

Uh, Hibbo, that isn't how this works...

(https://s15.postimg.org/yj24n53uz/Capture.png)

There isn't enough face palm to adequately express my reaction to this.

... for anybody that has half an idea of how this technology works.

However, it's just the sort of fodder that the sensationalist media and clueless masses will consume with relish.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on November 13, 2016, 09:57:57 am

And i thought this thread would run out of laughs.   :-DD
It's the gift that keeps on giving.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 13, 2016, 10:06:59 am

mmm...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=269913;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on November 13, 2016, 10:21:23 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on November 04, 2016, 01:22:24 am

That Appnoon mob are still pumping them out, there are no new pictures that I could find from Batteroo so perhaps their camera batteries are flat.   :palm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5nvu4Owb8s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5nvu4Owb8s)

What I don't understand with their logic, who in 2015, 2016 are still using a camera that use alcaline battery?
Who in 2015,2016 use remote control car that use alcaline battery?

My last remote controlled car was using a pack of NiMh battery, it was long time ago, and they werent individual cells, and it was long time ago (before 1995).
My last camera that used battery was made in early 2000 and I used rechargeable lithium battery in as yes, alcaline is not suited for such device.

But nowadays, 90% of the devices that was using NiMh pack or some AA/AAA batteries are now using Lithium based battery...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 13, 2016, 11:51:48 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 13, 2016, 12:18:02 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 12, 2016, 04:43:40 pm

Uh, Hibbo, that isn't how this works...

(https://s15.postimg.org/yj24n53uz/Capture.png)

There isn't enough face palm to adequately express my reaction to this.

We have to start somewhere, so  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on November 13, 2016, 12:20:06 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 13, 2016, 11:51:48 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 13, 2016, 12:18:02 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 12, 2016, 04:43:40 pm

Uh, Hibbo, that isn't how this works...

(https://s15.postimg.org/yj24n53uz/Capture.png)

There isn't enough face palm to adequately express my reaction to this.

We have to start somewhere, so  :palm:

I suspect the whole Hilbbo Baggins thing is just a windup/trolling effort...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on November 13, 2016, 12:21:00 pm

And Blocco Spirale is blocked by Batteroo in 3, 2, 1...  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jc101 on November 13, 2016, 12:22:14 pm

Perhaps someone in the US (as that is where the shipments have gone out to is seems) should post saying they arrived, but are not working as well as expected... be interesting to see the response to that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on November 13, 2016, 12:26:26 pm

Quote from: jc101 on November 13, 2016, 12:22:14 pm

Perhaps someone in the US (as that is where the shipments have gone out to is seems) should post saying they arrived, but are not working as well as expected... be interesting to see the response to that.

I haven't as yet seen any compelling evidence that any shipments have been received by any genuine purchasers...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 13, 2016, 12:33:53 pm

Quote from: Godzil on November 13, 2016, 10:21:23 am

What I don't understand with their logic, who in 2015, 2016 are still using a camera that use alcaline battery?

I bought a camera yesterday that requires alkaline batteries. The instruction manual explicitly says not to use any other type.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on November 13, 2016, 12:37:50 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 13, 2016, 12:33:53 pm

Quote from: Godzil on November 13, 2016, 10:21:23 am

What I don't understand with their logic, who in 2015, 2016 are still using a camera that use alcaline battery?

I bought a camera yesterday that requires alkaline batteries. The instruction manual explicitly says not to use any other type.  :popcorn:

Better get your Batteriseroos ordered then mate!  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on November 13, 2016, 02:12:23 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=269997)
He cannot take photo of the Batterisers as the Batterisers are jammed in the keyboard.   :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 13, 2016, 02:15:11 pm

Quote from: Delta on November 13, 2016, 12:37:50 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 13, 2016, 12:33:53 pm

Quote from: Godzil on November 13, 2016, 10:21:23 am

What I don't understand with their logic, who in 2015, 2016 are still using a camera that use alcaline battery?

I bought a camera yesterday that requires alkaline batteries. The instruction manual explicitly says not to use any other type.  :popcorn:

Better get your Batteriseroos ordered then mate!  :-DD

I assumed that if it's designed for alkalines that it will use them up.

I'll do a full report when the camera says they're 'dead'. See if I need to order some batterooos or not.  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on November 13, 2016, 02:51:10 pm

...and his keyboard's stopped working! FFS you could not make this up.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=270006;image)

(I suspect a humorous troll at work!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Towger on November 13, 2016, 03:57:07 pm

That brightens up my day.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on November 13, 2016, 04:49:45 pm

Let him post a photo of batterisers stuck inside the keyboard  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Rasz on November 13, 2016, 05:44:27 pm

sounds like hibbo is Dildo Shwaggins

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on November 13, 2016, 08:25:57 pm

Quote from: Howardlong on November 13, 2016, 02:51:10 pm

...and his keyboard's stopped working! FFS you could not make this up.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=270006;image)

(I suspect a humorous troll at work!)

Yeah, that clinches it; Hibbo is definitely a troll having a bit of fun. Well played, Sir.  :-+
So there are definitely no genuine reports of Batteroo units received yet...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 13, 2016, 10:04:57 pm

Quote from: samgab on November 13, 2016, 08:25:57 pm

Yeah, that clinches it; Hibbo is definitely a troll having a bit of fun. Well played, Sir.  :-+
So there are definitely no genuine reports of Batteroo units received yet...

Yep, well played!  :clap:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on November 13, 2016, 10:47:53 pm

My favourite so far:

(https://s22.postimg.org/d5l3s4781/Capture.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on November 13, 2016, 11:27:08 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 13, 2016, 10:47:53 pm

My favourite so far:

(https://s22.postimg.org/d5l3s4781/Capture.png)

I'm underwhelmed :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 14, 2016, 03:11:30 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 13, 2016, 10:04:57 pm

Quote from: samgab on November 13, 2016, 08:25:57 pm

Yeah, that clinches it; Hibbo is definitely a troll having a bit of fun. Well played, Sir.  :-+
So there are definitely no genuine reports of Batteroo units received yet...

Yep, well played!  :clap:

Thumbs up on that play from me as well.   :-+

Made my day, it did!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 14, 2016, 03:27:32 am

Bob Lucas isn't happy again.
He's almost the only one putting up a fight any more.

(http://i.imgur.com/TNcPF5p.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on November 14, 2016, 02:47:48 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 14, 2016, 03:27:32 am

Bob Lucas isn't happy again.

Wait till he receives his garbarisers and tries them out  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: richnormand on November 14, 2016, 05:52:57 pm

The ultimate dream for the Batteriser fans:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arQ8_PW-RiA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arQ8_PW-RiA)
Eight time the range.... :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Lockon Stratos on November 14, 2016, 07:39:13 pm

I wont even bother to read/watch these things, there is nothing new. The currently sold electric/hybrids vehicles are just a gimmick...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on November 14, 2016, 07:59:13 pm

Quote from: Lockon Stratos on November 14, 2016, 07:39:13 pm

I wont even bother to read/watch these things, there is nothing new. The currently sold electric/hybrids vehicles are just a gimmick...

Well, the video linked was just a joke anyway...

...but interesting that you claim that EVs/hybrids are just a gimmick...I've been driving one for almost 5 years now, almost 62000 miles (100,000 km).  Interesting what you can do with a gimmick!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on November 14, 2016, 08:33:14 pm

I'm on my third Prius, been driving them for about ten years, and "saved" about £25 large in congestion charges and road tax as a result. Every four years or so the government changes the goal posts so that Prius is no longer judged to be eco-friendly. So I buy the next one that is.

Quite how purchasing a brand new car every four years to avoid paying congestion charge is helping the planet I don't know.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on November 14, 2016, 08:46:13 pm

Quote from: Howardlong on November 14, 2016, 08:33:14 pm

I'm on my third Prius, been driving them for about ten years, and "saved" about £25 large in congestion charges and road tax as a result. Every four years or so the government changes the goal posts so that Prius is no longer judged to be eco-friendly. So I buy the next one that is.

Quite how purchasing a brand new car every four years to avoid paying congestion charge is helping the planet I don't know.

Buy an old car and look after it.  Please.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 14, 2016, 08:57:40 pm

Quote from: richnormand on November 14, 2016, 05:52:57 pm

The ultimate dream for the Batteriser fans:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arQ8_PW-RiA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arQ8_PW-RiA)
Eight time the range.... :-DD

Who paid for this funny video?  Since she is the 3rd richest woman in the US, I am sure she did not come cheap. Maybe she made this video to promote the Batshit when it comes out and she is a stock holder?

FYI the fastest electric car ran on AA batteries, so this video is not as crazy as it seems. But it did not show how to install the batteries?

Is Battery Bob doing another funding project as someone said?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on November 14, 2016, 09:53:22 pm

Quote from: Delta on November 14, 2016, 08:46:13 pm

Quote from: Howardlong on November 14, 2016, 08:33:14 pm

I'm on my third Prius, been driving them for about ten years, and "saved" about £25 large in congestion charges and road tax as a result. Every four years or so the government changes the goal posts so that Prius is no longer judged to be eco-friendly. So I buy the next one that is.

Quite how purchasing a brand new car every four years to avoid paying congestion charge is helping the planet I don't know.

Buy an old car and look after it.  Please.

Indeed, although there's not exactly much encouragement in these parts to do so. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/05/sadiq-khan-unveils-plans-for-extra-charge-on-londons-most-polluting-cars (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/05/sadiq-khan-unveils-plans-for-extra-charge-on-londons-most-polluting-cars)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: richnormand on November 14, 2016, 10:00:09 pm

@ez24

I think it was a SNL (Saturday night live) a satire weekly show in the US.
It's been running for ages and still has teeth (US election recently for example).

FYI
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/mercedes-benz-shows-it-can-take-a-joke-by-responding-to-snl-s-spoof-commercial-106689.html (http://www.autoevolution.com/news/mercedes-benz-shows-it-can-take-a-joke-by-responding-to-snl-s-spoof-commercial-106689.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 15, 2016, 02:29:34 am

Quote from: richnormand on November 14, 2016, 10:00:09 pm

@ez24

I think it was a SNL (Saturday night live) a satire weekly show in the US.
It's been running for ages and still has teeth (US election recently for example).

That makes sense, she has hosted SNL and at the end of the video the laugh track sounds like theirs

thanks

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 15, 2016, 03:18:04 am

Can we keep this one on-topic please, this is a highly watched thread.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 15, 2016, 04:43:54 am

The power management systems on electric and hybrid vehicles make the efforts of the Batteroo sleeve look like a pile of rocks sitting next to the pyramids - but there is no surprise in this.  Batteroo's big claim to fame is not function - but size.

However, Batteroo has distinguished itself with being the quintessential embodiment of vapourware.

We had people hanging out for them for Christmas - last year - and we are still waiting.  Anyone game enough to bet that Batteroo sleeves will be available for Christmas 2017?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on November 15, 2016, 02:22:30 pm

Quote from: Brumby on November 15, 2016, 04:43:54 am

The power management systems on electric and hybrid vehicles make the efforts of the Batteroo sleeve look like a pile of rocks sitting next to the pyramids - but there is no surprise in this.  Batteroo's big claim to fame is not function - but size.

However, Batteroo has distinguished itself with being the quintessential embodiment of vapourware.

We had people hanging out for them for Christmas - last year - and we are still waiting.  Anyone game enough to bet that Batteroo sleeves will be available for Christmas 2017?

I'm going to bet that something will come up again and delay them and give them a few more months...  :horse: Like I said... They obviously haven't run out of excuses nor delays. I hear the maritime piracy rate is up... The container ship is looking like a more probably answer every day...  :-DD


Also in other news, has this post become the longest post in EEVBlog history?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on November 15, 2016, 03:11:20 pm

On IGG there is another one claiming to have received the Batteroorisers :-) Could be another joke.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 15, 2016, 03:18:27 pm

Quote from: Brumby on November 15, 2016, 04:43:54 am

Anyone game enough to bet that Batteroo sleeves will be available for Christmas 2017?

 :-DD

Does anybody seriously believe they're manufacturing anything?

(other than lies)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on November 15, 2016, 04:35:08 pm

Quote from: Marcel_X on November 15, 2016, 03:11:20 pm

On IGG there is another one claiming to have received the Batteroorisers :-) Could be another joke.

Maybe, but Myle Home Automation seem to have a use for it in their CulCharge. In French, my OH tells me this translates literally to Butt Load, just so you know where those Batterisers are going.

(http://mylehome.com.hk/images/curCharge.jpg)

Oh, looky here: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/culcharge-the-smallest-wearable-3-in-1-powerbank (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/culcharge-the-smallest-wearable-3-in-1-powerbank)

From the well-known Hong Kong enclave of Bratislava, the last update was 8 months ago, when shipping started, apparently. And yet there seem to be lots of folks who've received bugger all. There's a pattern forming here.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on November 15, 2016, 05:03:40 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 12, 2016, 11:31:00 am

How long will this post last?

(http://i.imgur.com/JtPJ2H4.png)

That entire post, including Alex Maleks original comment has now disappeared, along with a lot of other comments.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on November 15, 2016, 05:21:55 pm

Do you think the Rooparvarisers actually, really, honestly, believe that getting their paid friends and coworkers to post on facebook and indiegogo saying they have received them will work in pumping up interest?

It has been proven time and again that the public are not that stupid and you will get caught.  So many startups and crowdfunded projects have fallen victim to their own stupidity in this way.

Considering not a SINGLE person has posted photos of what they have supposedly received.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on November 15, 2016, 05:59:01 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 15, 2016, 03:18:27 pm

Does anybody seriously believe they're manufacturing anything?

(other than lies)

I seriously believe they have NOT done anything since the campaign ended.

Somehow I have a feeling they never wanted to do a crowdfunding campaign, but they had to to close the deal with the big investors (SKTA). And I think they are now in some kind of a deadlock with SKTA:
- They just want/need SKTA's money before producing and shipping any batteriser.
- SKTA's demands results from the project before clearing the money.

Their last lie about having shipped something was IMO just a desperate last attempt to please some important people.

If you ask me this saga is nearing it's final chapter, and it will end without anyone ever getting a batteriser.

It's all a bit like a snail in a well, they are climbing up 4m at daytime, but then slide back 5m at night.  :box:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on November 15, 2016, 07:41:58 pm

aaand now I'm unable to post on the Batteroo Facebook page.  Ho hum. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on November 15, 2016, 08:06:21 pm

Hi,

Here is the latest from the IGG site. It is Bob encouraging people to post photos !!!

Why doesn't he post some photos?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=270663;image)

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on November 15, 2016, 08:24:29 pm

Really?  SEVERAL times?

While I suppose there is no upper limit to what "several" may mean, to me it generally means less than 10.  For this kind of product I would expect him to say HUNDREDS of times...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on November 15, 2016, 08:52:56 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on November 15, 2016, 08:06:21 pm

Here is the latest from the IGG site. It is Bob encouraging people to post photos !!!

Bob better hurry with his 'automated review solution'...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on November 15, 2016, 08:54:37 pm

Quote from: lpickup on November 15, 2016, 08:24:29 pm

While I suppose there is no upper limit to what "several" may mean, to me it generally means less than 10.  For this kind of product I would expect him to say HUNDREDS of times...

Perhaps the metal sleeve is ultra thin and metal fatigue is easy when removing batteries all the time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 15, 2016, 09:02:18 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on November 15, 2016, 08:06:21 pm

Hi,

Here is the latest from the IGG site. It is Bob encouraging people to post photos !!!

Why doesn't he post some photos?

Is it possible people are cutting themselves so badly they cannot take pictures?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on November 15, 2016, 09:07:23 pm

Quote from: lpickup on November 15, 2016, 08:24:29 pm

Really?  SEVERAL times?

While I suppose there is no upper limit to what "several" may mean, to me it generally means less than 10.  For this kind of product I would expect him to say HUNDREDS of times...

Yep, question and answer seem totally absurd. Like asking how many times I could refill my car's fuel tank.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 15, 2016, 09:09:27 pm

Quote from: lpickup on November 15, 2016, 08:24:29 pm

Really?  SEVERAL times?
While I suppose there is no upper limit to what "several" may mean, to me it generally means less than 10.  For this kind of product I would expect him to say HUNDREDS of times...

Yup.
Translation - To make it fit into stuff it has to be so thin as to render it impractical for continued reuse, making it an almost disposable product. We wanted to save the world, but ended up just polluting more.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 15, 2016, 09:10:50 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on November 15, 2016, 08:06:21 pm

Here is the latest from the IGG site. It is Bob encouraging people to post photos !!!
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=270663;image)

It's very interesting that Bob is both replying to Bob Lucas Jr's post whilst deleting his other ones.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 15, 2016, 09:12:53 pm

Once again they claim they are shipping.
Has anyone received an actual tracking number? let alone the product of course

(http://i.imgur.com/9mZmSsO.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 15, 2016, 09:45:11 pm

The several times usage more than likely refers to the fact that the user will initially place the sleeves on flat batteries in a device then realise that there is no major gain or benefit to be had, they will then try the sleeves in a different device to confirm their findings only to again verify that they got shafted and led astray, the pissed off user will then simply place the sleeves in a drawer and go on the internet to broadcast how ridiculous these products really are only to be convinced by some internet cookie to try them again one last time in a particular manner before finally spitting the dummy and placing them in the recycle bin.

Several times probably means the same as the three strikes and you’re out rule.   :-- :-- :--

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: trophosphere on November 15, 2016, 10:31:14 pm

Having the product only last "several times " is a pretty good business move as that will mean customers will have to buy these products repeatedly.* They no longer will be just one time customers.

* Assuming these things actually work and get shipped in the first place.  >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: johndoe123 on November 15, 2016, 11:51:26 pm

Quote from: lpickup on November 15, 2016, 08:24:29 pm

Really?  SEVERAL times?

While I suppose there is no upper limit to what "several" may mean, to me it generally means less than 10.  For this kind of product I would expect him to say HUNDREDS of times...

only if handled with care!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on November 16, 2016, 01:25:27 am

 But hey, 8x more battery life means you dump 1 battery plus 1 Batteroo in the trash as opposed to 8 batteries - should be a net gain, right?  :-DD :-DD :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 16, 2016, 05:06:04 am

Quote from: lpickup on November 15, 2016, 08:24:29 pm

Really?  SEVERAL times?

That jumped out at me also.


As a piece of electronic hardware, it should have a MTBF of several thousands of hours ... but are they being cautious because of the mechanical handling risk?

Or are they just lowering expectations?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on November 16, 2016, 05:41:56 am

Hi,

More from the IGG campaign, in case it gets deleted, Bob Lucas Jr. is asking Bob to show some pictures:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=270774;image)

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 16, 2016, 07:37:17 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on November 16, 2016, 05:41:56 am

.... in case it gets deleted ....

Nobody will take that bet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 16, 2016, 07:42:04 am

(http://i.imgur.com/mLgWNre.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 16, 2016, 08:28:43 am

Here's a thought....

What if Batteroo actually do have a product.  Certainly one that won't give you anything like 800% and one that might be limited in current capacity, but nevertheless does work.

BUT it has a fundamental weakness in its mechanical strength - so much so, that even with careful handling, it will not survive for long.  This is especially concerning since there has been more than one reservation about the physical space available for the sleeve....


Are they lowering our expectations - to reduce the disappointment?




This postulation DOES rely on them actually having a product, though.....

Oh, well.  It was just a thought.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on November 16, 2016, 08:34:01 am

They've learned from a certain character that has been in the news a lot lately. If there's a controversy around you (when will you ship?), just come out with lots of other, smaller controversies (how often can it be reused?) and you've created a brilliant diversion. Repeat often enough, and you can stretch it out to success... whatever success would be for Batteroo...

Quote from: Brumby on November 16, 2016, 08:28:43 am

Here's a thought....

What if Batteroo actually do have a product.  Certainly one that won't give you anything like 800% and one that might be limited in current capacity, but nevertheless does work.

BUT it has a fundamental weakness in its mechanical strength - so much so, that even with careful handling, it will not survive for long.  This is especially concerning since there has been more than one reservation about the physical space available for the sleeve....


Are they lowering our expectations - to reduce the disappointment?




This postulation DOES rely on them actually having a product, though.....

Oh, well.  It was just a thought.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on November 16, 2016, 09:06:02 am

Quote from: Brumby on November 16, 2016, 08:28:43 am

BUT it has a fundamental weakness in its mechanical strength - so much so, that even with careful handling, it will not survive for long.  This is especially concerning since there has been more than one reservation about the physical space available for the sleeve....

IMHO the mechanical strength of a device was never a fundamental limitation. With good design, appropriate choice of materials and high quality manufacturing, there's no reason why the product shouldn't

oh.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on November 16, 2016, 12:16:51 pm

I'm impressed  that the 'glowing testimonials' all refer to the Butterizer's amazing ability to jump from xx% up to 100% as soon as the 'sleeve' is fitted to their device.

Well,well, i believe this was the fundamental 'flaw' in the original 'batterpoo' concept - that it indicates a higher potential, but has virtually zero effect on the ability to deliver any additional energy.

It suits their business model.  Make the lights flash frantically, but don't actually do anything.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 16, 2016, 01:03:09 pm

Quote from: Brumby on November 16, 2016, 08:28:43 am

Here's a thought....
What if Batteroo actually do have a product.  Certainly one that won't give you anything like 800% and one that might be limited in current capacity, but nevertheless does work.

I am still convinced they do, and they will eventually ship it unless something else cans the whole thing before then. They have professional VC investment, so they must have something, they can't fake that.
And I've always said there is absolutely zero value in their last few updates if they genuinely aren't relatively close to shipping something.
These guys are delusional, but they are not stupid enough to say they are shipping when they don't even have a product. These are not your usual Indiegogo scammers who can just disappear into the night, they are major players in the business with serious industry reputations (which of course their name is now a laughing stock in most circles, but hey, they'll still get offered CEO jobs and future VC funding).
What their actual game is beyond that is speculation, my theory is they are bullshitting about the actual delivery status, delaying as long as possible hoping for that miracle Walmart/KMart order (which was their goal from day 1) before the game is up when people actually use this thing and the data gets out there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on November 16, 2016, 01:05:36 pm

Hi group,

Whatever the Batteroo team have done or do, they will not be able to overcome the effect that I described in reply 3322 almost a year ago.

To save you looking for the message, I will reproduce it here:

Maximum Power Point Measurement - Duracell AA

I have just finished an experiment to measure the Maximum Power Point of a Duracell AA cell.

Procedure

A HP6060A electronic load and HP3478A DMM were controlled using HPIB.

The cell was discharged using a constant current of 200mA for 30 minutes, 100 mAh.

Then the load was switched to Constant Resistance mode and the load resistance was stepped from 1 Ohm to 0.2 Ohms in 50m Ohm steps.

After the sweep to determine the maximum power, the load was returned to constant current. Then the cycle was repeated until the battery was depleted.

The cell voltage and current was measured at each step. The load power was calculated. The results were stored in a CSV file for analysis.


Maximum Power Point Results

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=184055;image)

This graph shows the maximum power that can be extracted from the cell at each step. The horizontal axis is the load resistance required to extract that power.

This is the absolute maximum power that can be extracted.

So to get 1.5V at 1A the battery must have been discharged by less than 300mAh (which is about 15%)

It doesn't matter what the Batteriser guys do, they can not exceed the power available from this set of curves.

This graph shows what is happening during a single MPPT sweep, this is after the cell was discharged by 200 mAh:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=184057;image)

To get 1.5W you need draw about 2.2A from 0.7V, and at this point 1.5W will dissipated in the cell.


Additional comments 2016


1) You have to stay on the high resistance side of the maximum power point. If the integrated circuit increases the duty-cycle till you end up on the left side of the maximum power point, there is a phase reversal in the control loop and you end up shorting the battery.

2) If you are operating at or near the maximum power point. It is very inefficient. At the maximum power point 1/2 the power is in the load, the other half is in the ESR of the battery.

3) Since the ESR of the cell increases as the battery is discharged, The increasing ESR prevents the depleted battery from being able to deliver power to the load.

I did not order any Batteriser Batteroo products, but I would love to repeat this test with a  Batteroo.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 16, 2016, 01:07:44 pm

And obviously no one has received a tracking email, otherwise there would be at least one person who reports that out of thousands.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on November 16, 2016, 01:26:29 pm

 Wait, new theory (inspired by a friend who bought one of those shake lights on eBay only to find it just had some button batteries in it, no shake generator - the seller actually responded with "we have two types of shake lights, one with batteries and one without")

 The reason for the limited life of the Batteroo is there is no electronics in the thing, it's just a small button battery that sits in series with the battery you clipped it to. Sure enough, the battery meter on whatever device will not indicate 100%. But once used up, it won't be able to boost any more batteries.

(yes, just fooling here - or am I?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Lockon Stratos on November 16, 2016, 03:11:04 pm

Quote from: lpickup on November 14, 2016, 07:59:13 pm

Quote from: Lockon Stratos on November 14, 2016, 07:39:13 pm

I wont even bother to read/watch these things, there is nothing new. The currently sold electric/hybrids vehicles are just a gimmick...

Well, the video linked was just a joke anyway...

...but interesting that you claim that EVs/hybrids are just a gimmick...I've been driving one for almost 5 years now, almost 62000 miles (100,000 km).  Interesting what you can do with a gimmick!

What i meant by that was that it has no real benefit over the traditional IC cars... ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on November 16, 2016, 05:01:44 pm

Quote from: rrinker on November 16, 2016, 01:26:29 pm

(inspired by a friend who bought one of those shake lights on eBay only to find it just had some button batteries in it, no shake generator - the seller actually responded with "we have two types of shake lights, one with batteries and one without")

There was something even worse than the "AMPY"?? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/the-ampy-'kinetic-charging'-portable-phone-charger-starts-arriving-at-backers/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/the-ampy-'kinetic-charging'-portable-phone-charger-starts-arriving-at-backers/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 17, 2016, 12:09:20 am

In one of their earlier promotional propaganda episodes they used an image of a kid playing with a game console and clearly declared that the Batteriser could be reused over and over, other than the kid now being of adult age and no longer given the opportunity to debunk the product in his early years what else suddenly changed for them to recently nominate that the device can only be used several times or thereabouts ?.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=270913;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edavid on November 17, 2016, 12:29:21 am

Bob R devotes all of 30 seconds to a throwaway post, and then we waste hundreds of hours debating its meaning  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 17, 2016, 12:36:03 am

Fair statement but unless you're a pilot in difficulty you can't really go changing the rules on the fly, not if you have any decency anyway.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on November 17, 2016, 12:49:50 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on November 17, 2016, 12:09:20 am

what else suddenly changed for them to recently nominate that the device can only be used several times or thereabouts ?.

Well... Boob realised that in reality, you'll only use the Batterpoo a couple of times before you discover it's effectively useless, or burns your product to ashes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on November 17, 2016, 01:00:37 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on November 17, 2016, 12:09:20 am

... other than the kid now being of adult age ...

 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 17, 2016, 02:47:42 am

Quote from: wilfred on November 17, 2016, 01:28:17 am

Defn: Kickstartled. the feeling of surprise one gets upon receiving a forgotten long overdue crowdfunded reward.

(I didn't coin the term, but I like it)

I like it, too.

But I reckon we would need something stronger - maybe "Kickgobsmacked" - if Batteroo sleeves do make an appearance.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 17, 2016, 04:10:55 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on November 17, 2016, 12:09:20 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=270913;image)

The way I read it, is the mythological batteriser only lasts 3 times.  The picture states so - over, over, over  is three times.  But I guess in a court they could argue they meant the device can be turned on three times ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on November 17, 2016, 04:43:37 am

Quote from: edavid on November 17, 2016, 12:29:21 am

Bob R devotes all of 30 seconds to a throwaway post, and then we waste hundreds of hours debating its meaning  :-//

Welcome to the wonderful world of engineering... It's what we do, we debate for hours on end determining the meaning of something that is so simple.  :horse:  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 17, 2016, 05:24:46 am

Quote from: ez24 on November 17, 2016, 04:10:55 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on November 17, 2016, 12:09:20 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=270913;image)

The way I read it, is the mythological batteriser only lasts 3 times.  The picture states so - over, over, over  is three times.  But I guess in a court they could argue they meant the device can be turned on three times ?

No, 4 times total...

You use it once, then use it over again... and so on, once, then 3 repeats, 4 times total...

Nothing misleading about that! "Do it over" or "do over" means do it a second time...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WattSekunde on November 17, 2016, 11:42:07 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 16, 2016, 01:03:09 pm

...
What their actual game is beyond that is speculation, my theory is they are bullshitting about the actual delivery status, delaying as long as possible hoping for that miracle Walmart/KMart order (which was their goal from day 1) before the game is up when people actually use this thing and the data gets out there.

Yes, and in batteroorizer dreams there are batteroorizers beside every battery shelf in every shop around the globe. They thought they can start the big snakeoil business via indiegogo without risking their own money.

If we had only non critical believers and clickbait producers in the media it would be a great success for batteroorizer. Remember all those ecstatic positive 800% news in the early days. They cannot be all wrong, right?  |O

I would not be surprised if in a few years they would reauthorize themselves in shops under another name. They only have to learn how to place the "product" in enough of the big markets. There are a lot of other snakeoil products out there... :palm:


:popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 18, 2016, 08:16:59 am

So another week ends with not a single delivery  :=\

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on November 18, 2016, 08:26:43 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 18, 2016, 08:16:59 am

So another week ends with not a single delivery  :=\

1 more day left to go here  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on November 18, 2016, 10:06:38 am

I find it curious that Bob has been claiming actual shipping now for the last 3 weeks, when in reality we have not one single report of an actual product reaching a single verified backer.

If, as I suspect, shipping isn't actually happening at all, why did he chose to claim they are, when he had a multitude of other "get out of jail free cards" left to go - ship sank, big battery, manufacturing issues, squirrels made a nest out of the cash in his safe, herpes, etc etc

It seems strange.  Is this all just for show to get that "big" order, to please the VC investors....what?  Surely if you claim active shipping and after three weeks there is not one single verified report of delivery to an actual real person, the game is going to be up very, very, soon ?

Maybe that's the plan all along.  dunno

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ice-Tea on November 18, 2016, 10:11:45 am

Quote from: ccs46 on November 17, 2016, 04:43:37 am

Quote from: edavid on November 17, 2016, 12:29:21 am

Bob R devotes all of 30 seconds to a throwaway post, and then we waste hundreds of hours debating its meaning  :-//

Welcome to the wonderful world of engineering... It's what we do, we debate for hours on end determining the meaning of something that is so simple.  :horse:  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on November 18, 2016, 02:17:28 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=271267)

:-DD :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on November 19, 2016, 06:39:46 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 18, 2016, 10:06:38 am

Maybe that's the plan all along.  dunno

I think this whole saga is bordering very close to "obtaining a benefit by deception" or whatever the equivalent offence is in the USA. Hardly anything/nothing Batteroo or the Roohparvar's have claimed in their communications can be verified to be true. I'm not a lawyer but as an "average/reasonable person" it stinks of fraud.

Rather than promising the world, they could have just as easily come out and said "The product was a failure. We were wrong, the engineers were right. We bit off more than we could chew and the product simply didn't work as we wanted". Yes, backers would have been disappointed, but at least they could have been somewhat truthful.

Instead, now they've committed to the story of a Batteriser actually existing and having shipped them to backers, which we can all assume is a lie.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 19, 2016, 06:42:43 am

Quote from: Halcyon on November 19, 2016, 06:39:46 am

Instead, now they've committed to the story of a Batteriser actually existing and having shipped them to backers, which we can all assume is a lie.

I still don't get the angle here. If that is the case, why say you shipped? What's the upside?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 19, 2016, 06:47:43 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 18, 2016, 10:06:38 am

I find it curious that Bob has been claiming actual shipping now for the last 3 weeks, when in reality we have not one single report of an actual product reaching a single verified backer.

To throw him a bone. When I shipped my uRulers it actually took 3 weeks before the first ones arrived. My mailing house used one of the world's worst drop shippers who sent them all to Sweden first for some ridiculous reason:
https://www.eevblog.com/2013/12/31/traps-for-even-simple-successful-crowd-funded-projects/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2013/12/31/traps-for-even-simple-successful-crowd-funded-projects/)

Quote

It seems strange.  Is this all just for show to get that "big" order, to please the VC investors....what?  Surely if you claim active shipping and after three weeks there is not one single verified report of delivery to an actual real person, the game is going to be up very, very, soon ?

When my uRulers didn't start showing up, I was panicking and keeping everyone updating on what I knew.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 19, 2016, 06:51:32 am

The first waves must have petered out before they reached the shore

(http://i.imgur.com/AHXbtw1.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 19, 2016, 07:14:49 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2016, 06:47:43 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 18, 2016, 10:06:38 am

I find it curious that Bob has been claiming actual shipping now for the last 3 weeks, when in reality we have not one single report of an actual product reaching a single verified backer.

To throw him a bone. When I shipped my uRulers it actually took 3 weeks before the first ones arrived....

I bet you posted a few photos of the product though.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 19, 2016, 07:19:26 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 19, 2016, 07:14:49 am

I bet you posted a few photos of the product though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92vemLHr9yE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92vemLHr9yE)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 19, 2016, 07:23:49 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2016, 06:42:43 am

I still don't get the angle here. If that is the case, why say you shipped? What's the upside?

The only explanation is that part of their VC money is dependent on shipping something.

They say they shipped them, grab the money, run...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on November 19, 2016, 08:11:11 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2016, 06:42:43 am

I still don't get the angle here. If that is the case, why say you shipped? What's the upside?

Agreed. Up to that point, the story was open ended. Once they announced the product was shipping, the clock is started. Considering how much time has passed since that point without seeing a photo from at least one customer, I have to call "bullshit".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on November 19, 2016, 10:11:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2016, 06:47:43 am

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 18, 2016, 10:06:38 am

I find it curious that Bob has been claiming actual shipping now for the last 3 weeks, when in reality we have not one single report of an actual product reaching a single verified backer.

To throw him a bone. When I shipped my uRulers it actually took 3 weeks before the first ones arrived. My mailing house used one of the world's worst drop shippers who sent them all to Sweden first for some ridiculous reason:
https://www.eevblog.com/2013/12/31/traps-for-even-simple-successful-crowd-funded-projects/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2013/12/31/traps-for-even-simple-successful-crowd-funded-projects/)

Quote

It seems strange.  Is this all just for show to get that "big" order, to please the VC investors....what?  Surely if you claim active shipping and after three weeks there is not one single verified report of delivery to an actual real person, the game is going to be up very, very, soon ?

When my uRulers didn't start showing up, I was panicking and keeping everyone updating on what I knew.

But, if you remember, their first shipping claim was in the beginning of august, and he said 4-8 weeks, which took him to the end of September.  That was 8 weeks at that point, and now we are nearing the end of November nearly 16 weeks after the first shipping claim.  I doubt even the worst shipping company in the world would take that long for even 1 to be verifiably shipped to someone

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: johndoe123 on November 19, 2016, 01:48:22 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2016, 07:19:26 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 19, 2016, 07:14:49 am

I bet you posted a few photos of the product though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92vemLHr9yE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92vemLHr9yE)

still dont get why you needed the tear proof envelopes, just tape the ruler onto a piece of cardboard.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on November 19, 2016, 03:25:18 pm

Quote from: johndoe123 on November 19, 2016, 01:48:22 pm

still dont get why you needed the tear proof envelopes, just tape the ruler onto a piece of cardboard.

When you're sending out thousands of something (and want to stay in the black), you can't take enough precautions

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on November 19, 2016, 05:44:31 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 19, 2016, 07:23:49 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 19, 2016, 06:42:43 am

I still don't get the angle here. If that is the case, why say you shipped? What's the upside?

The only explanation is that part of their VC money is dependent on shipping something.

They say they shipped them, grab the money, run...

Yeah I think this is the likely reason, part of a contract said that they had to ship to receive X more money, they ran out of money so simply said they had started shipping.  I've seen a very similar thing with a particular pinball company, they had terms that specified 50% payment on start of production and the rest when machine was ready to be shipped.  They ran out of money and simply announced they had 'started production', even though they aren't actually building the darn things yet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 19, 2016, 11:57:06 pm

Quote from: johndoe123 on November 19, 2016, 01:48:22 pm

still dont get why you needed the tear proof envelopes, just tape the ruler onto a piece of cardboard.

Cost.

1. You are going to need an envelope and someone to stuff it - no matter what sort of envelope you use.

2. Taping to a piece of cardboard requires additional materials and labour - a piece of carboard, a piece of tape and someone to actually put it together.  Not to mention the steps of procuring the tape and cardboard as well as handling of the 'assembled' insert.  Also, there is the potential for sticky residue to end up on the product.

So a few extra cents on an envelope which avoids all that could easily be cheaper overall.

Edit: Just watched the video   :-[

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 20, 2016, 01:02:56 am

Quote from: Brumby on November 19, 2016, 11:57:06 pm

Also, there is the potential for sticky residue to end up on the product.

Glue was used as per the video.  I assume hot glue, but some kind of glue that can be rubbed off the ruler.  Rubber glue?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on November 20, 2016, 10:57:19 am

IMHO the nr of comments on IGG for this project is surprisingly low. And so just because I can I did some statistical analysis on these comments. Here are the results:

According to IGG 1352 comments were made, but only 1101 were still visible. -> so approx 250 seem to be deleted?
Those 1101 comments were made by 395 unique persons.
Since the campaign ended 275 unique persons have posted a comment.

I have not looked at the content of these comments, but if you subtract the answers by Bob and Ali, the positive comments, and the neutral questions, I think at most 200 people have raised some kind of complaint. That's less than 3%, and ~7000 people just gave money($53 on average), and let it be. I find that amazing.

One recurring questions is "How to change the shipping address?". The answer use to be: "sent an us email, and we handle it for you". But the last 9 months they have not responded to that question. Now let's dig into that a little bit further:

Some statistic say that people change address on average every 5 year. I'll go a little bit more conservative: say every 7.5 year. That means that every year 1000 of their backers move to a new address, or roughly 3 a day. Now of course most people will forget about notifying batteroo about this change, but after a new shipment announcement by Bob they should be reminded. And in fact we can see that, right after bob's last update 10 people have made comments about their changed address.
So address changes are a big issue, and Bob must realize that, especially since he should be getting mails about this on a weekly or even daily basis. And yet he just started shipping(or so he says) without even a reminder to make sure the addresses are right.

So from all of this I can only conclude that 90% of their backers have totally accepted the fact that they will never see a return on their investment.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edavid on November 20, 2016, 08:15:01 pm

Well, for scampaigns I always wonder how many of the orders are shills.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on November 21, 2016, 12:40:29 pm

I am still waiting for the excuse: over time we lost the shipping addresses of our clients ....................

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on November 21, 2016, 01:50:06 pm

Well I'll be darned...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272206;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 21, 2016, 01:55:34 pm

Hmmm...

The packaging and sleeve are branded 'Batteriser'.

Looks like an invitation for a lawsuit - if it's fair dinkum.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on November 21, 2016, 01:57:38 pm

Quote from: PeterL on November 21, 2016, 01:50:06 pm

Well I'll be darned...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272206;image)

A photo of packaging is a good start, but where is the product?  Could be an empty box  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on November 21, 2016, 02:03:24 pm

Quote from: Kjelt on November 21, 2016, 12:40:29 pm

I am still waiting for the excuse: over time we lost the shipping addresses of our clients ....................

While testing the Batteroo Generation 2 prototype with 25000% increase in battery lifetime Probes the monkey had too much energy left and fell over on to the keyboard hitting the delete key.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on November 21, 2016, 02:10:18 pm

Here's the full res picture:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272208;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on November 21, 2016, 02:17:57 pm

He is from Athens. I will try to contact him.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 21, 2016, 03:32:43 pm

The edit history on this post is suspicious. Why would your average joe customer change the wording from 'real' to 'perfect' ?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272217;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 21, 2016, 03:39:17 pm

Clarification about longevity of the Batteroo

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272219;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on November 21, 2016, 03:45:15 pm

Quote from: Brumby on November 21, 2016, 01:55:34 pm

Hmmm...

The packaging and sleeve are branded 'Batteriser'.

Looks like an invitation for a lawsuit - if it's fair dinkum.

Could be a fake account and they took a picture of the wrong name to say, "sorry, now big battery has confiscated all our shipments at customs"  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on November 21, 2016, 03:56:39 pm

The account seems to be legit. According to his profile he is the owner of an online shop with gagdets for bikes and mobile phones.

http://www.smartplusnew.com/en/ (http://www.smartplusnew.com/en/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on November 21, 2016, 04:10:37 pm

Quote from: Kean on November 21, 2016, 01:57:38 pm

Quote from: PeterL on November 21, 2016, 01:50:06 pm

Well I'll be darned...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272206;image)

A photo of packaging is a good start, but where is the product?  Could be an empty box  :-DD

You have to ask:

1) If you are going to all the trouble to post a photograph, why wouldn't you post a picture of the Batteriser?

2) Where is Bob's camera?

3) Where are the press kits?

If they started shipping  about three weeks ago. It is conceivable that this is two step process, ship in bulk to a mail process company, then the mail processor ship to the customer. This two-step process could take several weeks. Why weren't a few dozen sleeves put in a courier envelope and shipped quickly?

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 21, 2016, 04:33:28 pm

Quote from: firewalker on November 21, 2016, 02:17:57 pm

He is from Athens. I will try to contact him.
Alexander.

 :-+ This is getting interesting. Did he get paid for endorsing the packaging?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 21, 2016, 04:47:50 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on November 21, 2016, 04:10:37 pm

Quote from: Kean on November 21, 2016, 01:57:38 pm

A photo of packaging is a good start, but where is the product?  Could be an empty box  :-DD

You have to ask:

1) If you are going to all the trouble to post a photograph, why wouldn't you post a picture of the Batteriser?

Maybe he just picked it up at the post office and pulled it out of the envelope. That's why he's in his car.

(deeply skeptical, but not seeing any smoking gun in that photo apart from the name "batterizer")

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on November 21, 2016, 05:09:21 pm

The declaration that "it's perfect!!!" seems like a very strange statement considering he doesn't appear to have removed the invisible Batterisers from the packaging and, therefore, can't know whether they work or even if they will fit the intended device. Once again, something just doesn't smell right.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 21, 2016, 05:15:33 pm

Probably just a joke. it is strange that he is the only person reporting getting the shipment in EU. And the package doesn't have any markings about the manufacturer, website, etc. which are typically found in the packaging.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on November 21, 2016, 06:06:55 pm

Greece was on Bob's preferred country's list to ship, i guess. It was very important that Greece gets it first.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on November 21, 2016, 06:25:30 pm

Maybe the user in question ordered a large number of the product in order to resale it via his own gadget shop, and Battero ships first to large customers? :D :D :D

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on November 21, 2016, 06:35:03 pm

Good old Alex Malek is back at it again,  I would point out their conflict of interest but that got me banned from posting last time lol:
(http://i.imgur.com/9cgnD8j.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 21, 2016, 07:09:42 pm

Quote from: Blocco on November 21, 2016, 05:09:21 pm

The declaration that "it's perfect!!!" seems like a very strange statement considering he doesn't appear to have removed the invisible Batterisers from the packaging and, therefore, can't know whether they work or even if they will fit the intended device. Once again, something just doesn't smell right.

I'm going with "troll". It's a total fake by some Greek Joker.

Why else would he only show the back of the package and not the front with the plastic box and the batterizers inside it?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BravoV on November 21, 2016, 07:16:17 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 21, 2016, 07:09:42 pm

Why else would he only show the back of the package and not the front with the plastic box and the batterizers inside it?

Cause printing at a piece of paper is much-much easier, rather than to doctor the photo with fake 3D rendering.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on November 21, 2016, 07:20:41 pm

I'm with Fungus on this one.
The back of all packaging like this usually includes trademarks, web site, country of manufacture, etc.
The fake mock up includes none of this 'fine print'.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on November 21, 2016, 08:31:04 pm

Quote from: Blocco on November 21, 2016, 05:09:21 pm

The declaration that "it's perfect!!!" seems like a very strange statement considering he doesn't appear to have removed the invisible Batterisers from the packaging and, therefore, can't know whether they work or even if they will fit the intended device. Once again, something just doesn't smell right.

That's the first thing that popped into my head. Why on earth say "It's perfect"? It looks like he has *just* picked it up from the post office (as he's in his car) and the package is not open yet, which only makes me assume that he hasn't even used it yet.

It's at the stage where unless one is in Dave's hot little hands, it's hard to trust anybody.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on November 21, 2016, 09:06:13 pm

 It would be awesome if Dave got his hands on one, but I'd accept anyoen here who posts a video of it. On another unrelated forum I'm on, there's a tradition of posing a can of beans in your photo to prove it's real (for a while it was a loaf of Wonder Bread). This being the EEVBlog, how about it gets a photo and/or video with either an EEVBlog item like the BM235 or uCurrent, or, if the lucky (?) recipient doesn't have any EEVBlog gear, have the computer display in frame with an EEVBlog video playing.
 That should be proof enough (yes, I know someone could Photoshop this all together, but really?) that you have in your grubby little hands an actual Batteroo product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on November 21, 2016, 09:48:32 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 21, 2016, 07:09:42 pm

I'm going with "troll". It's a total fake by some Greek Joker.

Well Bob believes it's real:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272322;image)

It's gonna be interesting to see how this ends..

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on November 21, 2016, 09:51:22 pm

Although I'm highly sceptical that anything has been shipped...

An Engineer would only describe something as perfect when he/she has proven that it fullfils the technical claims, but non-engineers may describe things as perfect before they have tested the limits of the device (or even used it once).
I bought my daughter a laptop and she described it as perfect before she'd taken it out of the box! (And she graduates as an engineer next year) :)

Regarding the packaging: That may be the front of the packaging. Many products (Duracell PP3 for example) come in similar packaging where the product and fine print are behind the card. Like this: http://www.lifcobuy.de/media/image/thumbnail/19304_g_720x600.jpg (http://www.lifcobuy.de/media/image/thumbnail/19304_g_720x600.jpg) (which only manages a measly 5x :D )

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on November 21, 2016, 09:59:29 pm

"It's Perfect" as a sentece in Greek can be used to describe a situation or my mood. Not the product.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on November 21, 2016, 10:01:44 pm

Quote from: PA0PBZ on November 21, 2016, 02:10:18 pm

Here's the full res picture:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272208;image)

I think the packaging looks pretty good. That's not to say the product inside the glossy packaging will be. If people are really starting to receive them, I can't wait to see some real world product tests on youtube...
But why would you only post one single photo of the packaging without any other pictures showing the product itself? The good thing about digital cameras is you can take and upload lots of photos quickly! So why do only one?
Annoyingly, the image posted here has been stripped of EXIF data.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on November 21, 2016, 10:06:39 pm

Facebook strips exif data.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on November 21, 2016, 10:13:03 pm

And by the way, where is the 800% thingie?   :-//

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on November 21, 2016, 10:15:07 pm

I thought they weren't allowed to ship anything with the Batteriser name on it? Wasn't one of their big excuses that they had to retool everything to say Batterpoo?

Edit: Also, that's clearly photochopped. I can tell by the pixels, you see.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on November 21, 2016, 10:38:18 pm

Quote from: timb on November 21, 2016, 10:15:07 pm

I thought they weren't allowed to ship anything with the Batteriser name on it? Wasn't one of their big excuses that they had to retool everything to say Batterpoo?

Edit: Also, that's clearly photochopped. I can tell by the pixels, you see.

lol. You joke, but here's some photo forensics. It doesn't look photoshopped:
http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=59e2acf8299bcaad96fbfa01e460cbf3e005ebe7.71659&show=ela (http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=59e2acf8299bcaad96fbfa01e460cbf3e005ebe7.71659&show=ela)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on November 21, 2016, 10:57:43 pm

Quote from: PeterL on November 21, 2016, 09:48:32 pm

Well Bob believes it's real:

Bob believes many things  >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on November 21, 2016, 11:22:23 pm

Bob is a strange character; why doesn't he directly answer anyone's questions on IGG or FB? Someone is again asking him to post photos on IGG, what are the odds that he doesn't reply?

I don't believe anything has been "shipped" and Bob knows this better than anyone so why ask people to post images of something that he knows doesn't exist? There isn't even a single update on the official Batteroo web site that mentions "shipping" or shows any images of actual production units, they're still only offering pre-orders. No legitimate company would miss the opportunity to shout about it when their long-awaited, "game-changing" product actually becomes a reality.

There's something fishy going on here... but, Bob only knows what!

But wait, someone else claims to have received something over on IGG......... I hope Joseph Brady knows how to take a convincing photo...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 22, 2016, 12:20:59 am

Quote from: wilfred on November 21, 2016, 11:02:42 pm

It looks fake to me. Just from the design of the package it looks like the we're being shown the back of the package. Typically I expect the part with the product visible to be the front with all the marketing claims and the back to have the barcode and approvals and all other explanatory and legally required blurb.

Why isn't the photo of the actual product instead of the packaging?

I do recall that at one point they were offering a small protection container similar to a tackle box for their flimsy device, perhaps that is what's visible in the recently enhanced image.     

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: johndoe123 on November 22, 2016, 01:28:49 am

Quote from: Blocco on November 21, 2016, 11:22:23 pm

I don't believe anything has been "shipped" and Bob knows this better than anyone so why ask people to post images of something that he knows doesn't exist?

maybe he hopes that people fake it (like the guy in Athens) to get some attention.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 22, 2016, 03:17:10 am

This has gone from fishy to rancid fish sauce that dripped out of a wharf-side dumpster in August.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 22, 2016, 06:34:09 am

(http://i.imgur.com/Dlv4wMJ.png)

(http://s.quickmeme.com/img/96/969f4a262a6cb34b7d6bae07e8f0e1da343b904e6c7a8148d2748a6370405dd4.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 22, 2016, 06:36:12 am

From Facebook
Some guy from Greece got one:
https://www.facebook.com/stratos.lag.9 (https://www.facebook.com/stratos.lag.9)

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15193499_10211326640302861_3635298966312497920_n.jpg?oh=1a34696681059de240ba8ea28b4e5d4c&oe=58C492BD]https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15193499_10211326640302861_3635298966312497920_n.jpg?oh=1a34696681059de240ba8ea28b4e5d4c&oe=58C492BD)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 22, 2016, 06:46:13 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 22, 2016, 06:36:12 am

From Facebook
Some guy from Greece got one:
https://www.facebook.com/stratos.lag.9 (https://www.facebook.com/stratos.lag.9)

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15193499_10211326640302861_3635298966312497920_n.jpg?oh=1a34696681059de240ba8ea28b4e5d4c&oe=58C492BD]https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15193499_10211326640302861_3635298966312497920_n.jpg?oh=1a34696681059de240ba8ea28b4e5d4c&oe=58C492BD)

Correction: some guy with a Facebook account in Greece posted a photo of packaging material. This is totally bizarre. Who wouldn't open the damned package up?! Unless of course, the package is all there is.

I'm prepared to be wrong, but this truly seems like the battery sleeves do not exist, and an elaborate fraud is being put forth. Without exif data, that photo could just as well be from Cleveland or San Jose.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 22, 2016, 06:49:36 am

Let's assume the Greece one is legit, that means:
a) They have used some dropshipping company that are shuffling these around the world first. My uRulers all went to Sweden to be distributed for example, so Swed's got them first.
b) Other people can only be a day away now, so we'll know by then.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 22, 2016, 06:51:57 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 22, 2016, 06:46:13 am

Correction: some guy with a Facebook account in Greece posted a photo of packaging material. This is totally bizarre. Who wouldn't open the damned package up?! Unless of course, the package is all there is.
I'm prepared to be wrong, but this truly seems like the battery sleeves do not exist, and an elaborate fraud is being put forth. Without exif data, that photo could just as well be from Cleveland or San Jose.

The guy works (or worked?) at http://www.smartplusnew.com/el/ (http://www.smartplusnew.com/el/)
Some sort of gadget company?
Smells fishy...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 22, 2016, 07:00:20 am

Does anybody know which side the steering wheel is on in Greece ?, perhaps there are also some other hints in the image that we haven't noticed yet, I even tried looking at an inflated picture to view the reflection in the other cars mirror with little success, driving myself bonkers unnecessarily.   ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 22, 2016, 07:01:41 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on November 22, 2016, 07:00:20 am

Does anybody know which side the steering wheel is on in Greece ?

The right. They got that correct.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 22, 2016, 07:14:59 am

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15193499_10211326640302861_3635298966312497920_n.jpg?oh=1a34696681059de240ba8ea28b4e5d4c&oe=58C492BD)

That's a left hand drive vehicle.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on November 22, 2016, 07:20:26 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 22, 2016, 06:51:57 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 22, 2016, 06:46:13 am

Correction: some guy with a Facebook account in Greece posted a photo of packaging material. This is totally bizarre. Who wouldn't open the damned package up?! Unless of course, the package is all there is.
I'm prepared to be wrong, but this truly seems like the battery sleeves do not exist, and an elaborate fraud is being put forth. Without exif data, that photo could just as well be from Cleveland or San Jose.

The guy works (or worked?) at http://www.smartplusnew.com/el/ (http://www.smartplusnew.com/el/)
Some sort of gadget company?
Smells fishy...

Website kinda similar to the other gadget company "Myle Home Intelligence" from a few days ago
http://myle-homeintelligence.com/page/homepage.aspx (http://myle-homeintelligence.com/page/homepage.aspx)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=270614;image)

Quote from: Brumby on November 22, 2016, 07:14:59 am

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15193499_10211326640302861_3635298966312497920_n.jpg?oh=1a34696681059de240ba8ea28b4e5d4c&oe=58C492BD)

That's a left hand drive vehicle.

Greece drives on the right side, so steering on the left side

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on November 22, 2016, 08:03:11 am

That may well be someone who ordered a bunch with the intention to resell them in some sort of retail store.  They may have absolutely no intention of using them or even trying them out, just to try to sell them to suckers and make a buck.

They may well have got them earlier than others because it was one of the larger orders which would have been shipped out differently and separate from the bulk of backers' orders.  I will not be surprised at all if people really do start receiving them. 

I expect that photo is genuine.  That does look to be about what I would expect the real, finished, packaged product to look like. It is just still amazing that it is the first such photo that we've seen.

Quote from: wilfred on November 21, 2016, 11:02:42 pm

Didn't they lose the right to say Batteriser?

Their deal(s) with Energizer may well have allowed them to ship their existing stock to the IGG backers.

Without being able to see the agreement(s) or be a fly on the wall during their discussions, only the Batteroo insiders know what the precise terms of the agreement(s) are.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on November 22, 2016, 08:10:06 am

Quote from: drussell on November 22, 2016, 08:03:11 am

That may well be someone who ordered a bunch with the intention to resell them in some sort of retail store.  They may have absolutely no intention of using them or even trying them out, just to try to sell them to suckers and make a buck.

They may well have got them earlier than others because it was one of the larger orders which would have been shipped out differently and separate from the bulk of backers' orders.  I will not be surprised at all if people really do start receiving them. 

I expect that photo is genuine.  That does look to be about what I would expect the real, finished, packaged product to look like. It is just still amazing that it is the first such photo that we've seen.

Quote from: wilfred on November 21, 2016, 11:02:42 pm

Didn't they lose the right to say Batteriser?

Their deal(s) with Energizer may well have allowed them to ship their existing stock to the IGG backers.

Without being able to see the agreement(s) or be a fly on the wall during their discussions, only the Batteroo insiders know what the precise terms of the agreement(s) are.

I seem to recall them saying they had to reprint all the packaging and create new dies to stamp the sleeve. It was an excuse they used around the time they announced issue with Energizer was settled.

They had known about Energizer issue since well before they ever went into production, so it's highly unlikely they ever manufactured any significant number of units with the Batteriser name, let alone packaging!

Besides, the last thing I'd want to do is ship large numbers of my product to a retailer that didn't have my actual product name on it... That's just asking for customer confusion.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on November 22, 2016, 08:25:42 am

Quote from: Brumby on November 22, 2016, 07:14:59 am

That's a left hand drive vehicle.

Yep, the Greeks drive on the right-hand side of the road (same as the USA) so their cars are backwards as well ;-)

I think everyone here has his the nail on the head all along. There is still no verifiable evidence that a Batteriser (in any form) exists.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on November 22, 2016, 08:38:38 am

Looks like they deleted the latest comments on Facebook, including this last picture.
Or at least it's no longer public visible..

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on November 22, 2016, 08:57:42 am

I can still see it, are you banned?  ;)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272405;image)

Too bad actually, I was going to suggest it would be back soon branded Batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on November 22, 2016, 09:16:57 am

Quote from: PA0PBZ on November 22, 2016, 08:57:42 am

I can still see it, are you banned?  ;)

I'm not even on Facebook, Yesterday a saw the picture without being logged in.
Today I don't see any comments on their last two posts.

Oh well, maybe it's just facebook trying to lure me in...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on November 22, 2016, 09:46:03 am

Regarding the car in the photo. It's a left hand drive BMW 3 series, probably from the early/mid 2000's. A car that would be pretty common in Greece (but also in many other countries).

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on November 22, 2016, 09:46:28 am

Is it possible to add a poll to this thread at this stage?

Something like:

Are you a 'Batteriser' backer on Indigogo or have you ordered a Batteriser through some other means?

(1) No, I'm just here for the amusing thread
(2) Yes, I backed them on Indigogo but I'm yet to receive a product
(3) Yes, I ordered a Batteriser through other means, but I'm still yet to receive my order

It'd be nice to know how many people reading the thread actually backed them. The poll would allow them to remain anonymous (for obvious reasons). Quite frankly, at this late stage, it's like waiting for Charlie Bucket to find Willy Wonka's golden ticket.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 22, 2016, 10:03:49 am

Yes, some organisation around these parts could possibly assist those who may have not followed the debacle from the beginning, this thread could probably do with an index or something similar, I started one months ago and then gave up so feel free to fill in the blanks as I’ve now completely lost interest again and generally only ever judge a battery by its cover anyway.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 22, 2016, 10:08:25 am

Quote from: wilfred on November 21, 2016, 11:02:42 pm

Didn't they lose the right to say Batteriser?

Maybe they shipped the "Batteriser" branded ones to countries where copyright laws are hard to enforce.

(are they that smart?)

Something about that package/photo just doesn't seem right though...why would you take a photo from the back?

The smoking guns for me are that:
a) Bob never posted any photos of anything. That's just not plausible given how easy it is to upload photos these days.
and
b) The first people posting on Facebook were obviously Bob's cronies. They didn't post photos either. How does that work, Bob? Does nobody own a smartphone?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on November 22, 2016, 10:21:18 am

So if they're all manufactured and in the mail, why is their website still taking "pre-orders" of "the first shipment" with an undetermined ship date? Shouldn't they be selling them outright by now?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on November 22, 2016, 10:51:14 am

The lack of updates on their website is one of the strangest aspects (and everything else is very very strange), it appears to have been abandoned. It should be full steam ahead now the Batteroos are finally in production..... but the website does not reflect that.

I wonder if there are disagreements within the Batteroo team on how they should proceed (there must surely be some unhappy people) and now Bob is isolated because the others are refusing to play the "let's pretend we have a product" game. He is free to act unilaterally on social media and IGG but cannot update the website without approval from the rest of the team. Perhaps the rest of the team value their reputations and feel let down by the way it has been handled. I'm sure they would all prefer to move on and distance themselves from this embarrassing saga.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 22, 2016, 12:18:32 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272435;image)

The whole tone of this is just wrong.

Bob "believes" that "a few" people have posted pics of their Batterisers? He doesn't know for sure and hasn't checked for himself? (He isn't interested?)

It just doesn't pass the sniff test.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on November 22, 2016, 02:54:14 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 22, 2016, 12:18:32 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272435;image)

The whole tone of this is just wrong.

Bob "believes" that "a few" people have posted pics of their Batterisers? He doesn't know for sure and hasn't checked for himself? (He isn't interested?)

It just doesn't pass the sniff test.

It's a big step for Boob to pop out his phone and take a couple of grainy snaps to post...?
Maybe the prototype doesn't work in his own gear.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on November 22, 2016, 02:58:09 pm

Quote from: SL4P on November 22, 2016, 02:54:14 pm

It's a big step for Boob to pop out his phone and take a couple of grainy snaps to post...?
Maybe the prototype doesn't work in his own gear.

Boob is unable to use his camera, the dead AA batteries in it are jammed, and he can't get them out.

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on November 22, 2016, 03:14:38 pm

 That's the real killer. Surely if they are being produced, Bob should have a couple packs - I mean, if you created a company wouldn't you keep at least one of your products for yourself just to show it off? But no, this charlatan can't be bothered to take a photo of the product his company has so proudly produced, he pushes it off to the purchasers to post photos when they receive theirs.
 All for a reason, of course, These things absolutely do not exist, and by pushing off the picture taking on the customers they gain a few more weeks of nothing by blaming it on the shipping. Hey, we shipped them, if you didn't get yours yet, be patient, our shipping house is doing weird things. But now, even with a ridiculous convoluted shipping company like the uRuler thing, that delay time is running out and they will need a new excuse soon.
 So what's next? They get the entire shipment back because of bad addressing?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on November 22, 2016, 03:32:30 pm

...or don't get it back, for exactly the same reason  |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 22, 2016, 03:38:01 pm

Quote from: rrinker on November 22, 2016, 03:14:38 pm

These things absolutely do not exist, and by pushing off the picture taking on the customers they gain a few more weeks of nothing by blaming it on the shipping. Hey, we shipped them, if you didn't get yours yet, be patient

...and we can't help it if nobody's taking pictures of their batterisers and posting them online.

...and if nobody is testing them properly and posting results then it's not under our control!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 22, 2016, 03:57:36 pm

The next excuse practically writes itself:

"We weren't informed at the time, but our shipping company's policy is not to send anything to addresses that haven't been updated in over x number of months. In our rush to get these Batteroos out to you as quickly as possible, we did not send a recent address confirmation to our backers. Therefore the shipments that have been going out have been ONLY to some of those that had updated their addresses within x number of months. It is only now that we became aware that our shipping company had been not delivering to these old addresses. We're pleased that some of you can enjoy your Batteroos now and to everyone else, sit tight we'll be sending out a Recent Address Confirmation via Indiegogo. Make sure to fill it out quickly and we'll have your Batteroos out as soon as possible, hopefully before Xmas.

Seasons Greetings and happy Batteroo'ing.
Bob."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 22, 2016, 04:09:14 pm

Another one? Why can't anyone take a real photo??

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272471;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on November 22, 2016, 04:46:30 pm

Well, the guy took another picture with the box opened. Looks legit...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272489;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 22, 2016, 05:28:18 pm

The plot thickens...

a) What's the little red tag at top-left? A defect?  :popcorn:

b) Why not post this pic first?  :-//

c) I'd say there should be more shadow visible through the '+'s on the sleeves if there was a solid PCB at the top.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272516;image)

Not enough evidence yet. Let's wait and see if anybody else receives them...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on November 22, 2016, 05:40:44 pm

 Look at the right most one in that closeup - there's a white plastic tab sticking up under where the PCB would be, so seeing the whitish color though the + makes sense.

 But I still don't get the Batteriser name.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 22, 2016, 05:48:14 pm

Quote from: rrinker on November 22, 2016, 05:40:44 pm

Look at the right most one in that closeup - there's a white plastic tab sticking up under where the PCB would be, so seeing the whitish color though the + makes sense.

Sure, but look at the box where his finger is. It's a darker color even though it's much less shadowed (light is entering from above, a PCB would block most of it).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272518;image)

Maybe it's just some sort of "light pipe" effect in the plastic. I dunno...  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on November 22, 2016, 05:55:34 pm

 Wait - it SHOULD be darker where his finger is over it. I don't have any right here with me but if you take a similar plastic box, the white will appear darker over a spot you put your finger on. It looks like the white under the + on the right most one IS darker than the white under the + on the left one.

 I still don't buy they actually have shipped any of those to anyone, but pic looks legitimate. Seeing that they say Batteriser, maybe that IS a picture from Bob or friend, one of the prototypes they showed a long time ago, and not the 'final' product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on November 22, 2016, 05:56:34 pm

Quote from: rrinker on November 22, 2016, 05:40:44 pm

But I still don't get the Batteriser name.

Its because this are the same sleves shown at all this pictures before.

It looks like the PCB's are missing in this sleves.
I'd say this is another trick to get more time.
But I don't knew why they need more time because it looks like they didnt want to deliver at all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 22, 2016, 06:00:51 pm

I'd definitely expect more shadow in the left-most '+' if there was a PCB there.

His finger-shadow is visible in the second one from the left. A finger wouldn't make any difference if there was a PCB.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272525;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 22, 2016, 06:07:08 pm

Quote from: rrinker on November 22, 2016, 05:55:34 pm

Wait - it SHOULD be darker where his finger is over it.

Yes, but it should be much darker under the '+' if there was a PCB there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on November 22, 2016, 06:17:08 pm

I don't knew how FaceBook is handling the images.
But did someone have a look at the exif-data of the original images?

It would be funny, when the pictures comes from the same camera or something else.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on November 22, 2016, 06:29:41 pm

Quote from: Barny on November 22, 2016, 06:17:08 pm

I don't knew how FaceBook is handling the images.
But did someone have a look at the exif-data of the original images?

It would be funny, when the pictures comes from the same camera or something else.

Both pictures come from the same camera. According to the metadata the 'primary platform' is Apple Computer Inc.
So probably taken with an iPhone. Metadata and ELA data can be found here:

http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=63704a070556ebd27fa22a528fea9eb2d93eb5ce.80026&show=meta (http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=63704a070556ebd27fa22a528fea9eb2d93eb5ce.80026&show=meta)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 22, 2016, 06:33:34 pm

Quote from: Marcel_X on November 22, 2016, 06:29:41 pm

Quote from: Barny on November 22, 2016, 06:17:08 pm

I don't knew how FaceBook is handling the images.
But did someone have a look at the exif-data of the original images?

Both pictures come from the same camera. According to the metadata the 'primary platform' is Apple Computer Inc.
So probably taken with an iPhone.

Facebook strips out the most interesting info, unfortunately.

I was looking to see if the fuel gauge in the car had jumped around, or if the air vents had changed position or something, but there's not much that's actually visible in both pics.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on November 22, 2016, 06:43:44 pm

More interesting would be the tachometer. (mph / kph)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on November 22, 2016, 07:40:24 pm

Wow, the tin-foil-hattery is off the charts! I'm willing to believe that that individual is holding a real packet of Batteriser sleeves. Why he appears to presently be the only person on the entire planet to have both a pack of sleeves and a phone/camera in the same place is astonishing.
But big difference between showing fancy packaging, and testing whether a product actually works or not. Let's see those real world tests, Mr whoever from Greece!
And what's with that other guy, says he bought only AAA sleeves but doesn't have any products that use AAA cells, only AA? Why would anyone do that? Is that a reflection of the mental ability of the average Batteriser sucker user?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 22, 2016, 07:46:31 pm

Quote from: samgab on November 22, 2016, 07:40:24 pm

I'm willing to believe that that individual is holding a real packet of Batteriser sleeves.

I am not willing to believe.  Because during my life I have come across 2 cons.   They were amazing how they could fool people.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 22, 2016, 08:00:13 pm

Quote from: ez24 on November 22, 2016, 07:46:31 pm

Quote from: samgab on November 22, 2016, 07:40:24 pm

I'm willing to believe that that individual is holding a real packet of Batteriser sleeves.

I am not willing to believe.  Because during my life I have come across 2 cons.   They were amazing how they could fool people.

There might be a big chunk of the VC capital that only gets handed over on 'delivery'. That's a big incentive to pull a few stunts.

We know Bob's gone on camera and blatantly lied before now. Remember the Garmin GPS? Probes The Monkey? Remember how they paid Vietnamese people to vote down Dave's videos? Chinese landslides? It'll take more than a single photo to convince me they're telling the truth now.

Alternative (b) is: They know Batteriser doesn't work as claimed but the cost to produce a few dozen units is less then the outstanding VC money. In that case they can personally make money by shipping something, even if it's rubbish. Batterizer will collapse but the Batteroo Brothers get six more months of free lunches.

(this option also explains why they haven't changed the 'Batteriser' name on the sleeves - they simply don't care if Energizer sues the company because the company will be dead by the time anything goes to court)


nb. Option (a) is obviously more attractive to a scammer - much cheaper to do and no actual work needed. I wouldn't be surprised if a few more photos appear over the next few days (but no test data). We know there's a handful of prototypes out there somewhere.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 22, 2016, 08:02:45 pm

Quote from: samgab on November 22, 2016, 07:40:24 pm

Wow, the tin-foil-hattery is off the charts!

 :-DD :-DD :-DD

I don't understandwhy:
a) Bob can't publish a photo
b) Why the Greek guy keeps posting photos without actually trying them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 22, 2016, 08:33:20 pm

As others have pointed out, the sleeves could easily be empty (no PCB).  A simple trick, and if this guy is a reseller or partner (which is very likely, smartandnew.com sell gadgets and this is right in their wheelhouse) the motivation is there to "maintain confidence" and "produce buzz"... he'd have been told "they're very close" but people are "getting inpatient" and need "reassuring".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 22, 2016, 08:48:35 pm

Quote from: quad on November 22, 2016, 08:33:20 pm

As others have pointed out, the sleeves could easily be empty (no PCB). 

Not to mention the weird red tab at the top:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272516;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 22, 2016, 08:52:04 pm

OK, Bob,

Now....try taking a photo of your product in your car with today's Greek newspaper in the background with the date visible. 

Do they have those in California...?

 :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on November 22, 2016, 08:56:34 pm

This scam story will never end !!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on November 22, 2016, 08:59:12 pm

When I asked him for another photo, I mentioned the top side with the PCB. :D

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on November 22, 2016, 09:10:26 pm

With the viewing angle, what behind the "+" hole should be the PCB. They must have painted it in milky white.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: sleemanj on November 22, 2016, 09:34:41 pm

Maybe we have some Greecian EEVBlog members who could try and contact this individual and see if he is willing to meet them and take some photos, or... offer him money for this exceptionally rare beast.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on November 22, 2016, 09:52:27 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 22, 2016, 10:08:25 am

Quote from: wilfred on November 21, 2016, 11:02:42 pm

Didn't they lose the right to say Batteriser?

Maybe they shipped the "Batteriser" branded ones to countries where copyright laws are hard to enforce.

This has not got, and has never had, anything to do with copyright law.

As I stated several times before, I wouldn't be surprised if their deal with Energizer Holdings to drop the lawsuit and the situation surrounding Batteroo's abandonment of their application for the Batteriser trademark explicitly allowed them to ship units made from the stock they had already produced of the sleeves and packaging, even in the US.

Barring that, then, yes, the logical course of action would probably be to send those early production ones to places beyond the reach of the USPTO's juristiction...

Quote from: Barny on November 22, 2016, 05:56:34 pm

It looks like the PCB's are missing in this sleves.
I'd say this is another trick to get more time.
But I don't knew why they need more time because it looks like they didnt want to deliver at all.

etc. etc.

I can't believe how many people here are unwilling to believe that these things might actually exist.  :)

It is not like it is actually some kind of new technology or something. 

There is absolutely no reason why they could not have finally managed to actually ship some units.  It IS very surprising, of course, that they have done such a horrible job of keeping their IGG backers informed; the complete lack of pictures, etc. but it isn't like the product itself is an impossibility.  They won't have shipped them without PCBs or that kind of nonsense....

It will be very interesting to finally get to see some actual performance data once we get our hands on them considering there has been a complete and utter lack of any actual data this whole bloody time!  (The hallmark of bogus products everywhere...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on November 22, 2016, 10:04:20 pm

IIRC The Energizer/Batteriser trademark case did allow them to sell off any existing "Batteriser" marked stock, but all future rubbish has to be another name, ie. "Batteroo"

I imagine this single mockup package *is* the existing "Batteriser" stock.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on November 22, 2016, 10:30:57 pm

Quote from: firewalker on November 22, 2016, 08:59:12 pm

When I asked him for another photo, I mention the top side with the PCB. :D

Alexander.

Wow, do you actually have an interchange of communication with this guy? If so, maybe you could ask him to put a little video up on youtube, of him trying them out, showing all angles of the product, showing it working, etc. That would be a start (although still not proving that the product is worth buying or using, which I'm certain it isn't).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on November 22, 2016, 10:43:32 pm

Quote from: Macbeth on November 22, 2016, 10:04:20 pm

IIRC The Energizer/Batteriser trademark case did allow them to sell off any existing "Batteriser" marked stock, but all future rubbish has to be another name, ie. "Batteroo"

I imagine this single mockup package *is* the existing "Batteriser" stock.

Exactly. As I stated before, they knew about the Energizer trademark issue well before anything went into production. It's not like they had thousands of these rolling off the lines, only to suddenly find out they can't use the Batteriser name.

In fact, their lawyers would have told them early on that Energizer had a good case and they would be steamrolled if they didn't acquiesce. At which point, they would have either:

A) Changed the design of the sleeve to eliminate the die stamped name entirely, allowing them to silkscreen it after cutting *or* apply a label. This way they could get the sleeve dies made and start production.

*or*

B) Preemptively change the sleeve stamping to say Batteroo to avoid the above issue.

Even if they *did* somehow have thousands of "Batteriser" branded sleeves sitting around before the PCBs went into production, there's no way they had the retail packaging complete at that point. They may have had artwork ready to go, but there's no way it was printed and waiting...

All they'd have to do is change "Batteriser" to "Batteroo" in the artwork and send the change the packaging company...

There's no way they'd print all the packaging with the old name; the sleeves, *maybe* (still doubtful) but absolutely not the packaging... It just wouldn't make sense!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on November 22, 2016, 10:44:48 pm

No actual communication. I left a comment asking for more photos. Specially from the top with the pcb. He posted the one above.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on November 22, 2016, 11:13:45 pm

Quote from: f4eru

  This scam story will never end !! 

Unfortunately, unless sites like this keep up the pressure / activity, they'll get away with it, and worse - others will follow in greater numbers, knowing that eventually
"we'll" give up

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 22, 2016, 11:22:29 pm

Quote from: Marcel_X on November 22, 2016, 04:46:30 pm

Well, the guy took another picture with the box opened. Looks legit...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272489;image)

As others have pointed out, if there actually a PCB on these?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 22, 2016, 11:27:16 pm

I strongly suspect they are getting some type of disturbed kick out of all this attention, somethings not quite right with these people in my view and all I see are more sleight of hand tactics and cheap card tricks.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on November 22, 2016, 11:29:37 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 22, 2016, 11:22:29 pm

As others have pointed out, if there actually a PCB on these?

They work better without the PCB anyway.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 22, 2016, 11:33:27 pm

Facebook comments in case they delete them:
(http://i.imgur.com/H4XCRIM.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2016, 12:06:57 am

Quote from: drussell on November 22, 2016, 09:52:27 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 22, 2016, 10:08:25 am

Maybe they shipped the "Batteriser" branded ones to countries where copyright laws are hard to enforce.

This has not got, and has never had, anything to do with copyright law.

Sorry, I meant 'trademark'.   :palm:

Quote from: drussell on November 22, 2016, 09:52:27 pm

I can't believe how many people here are unwilling to believe that these things might actually exist.  :)

It is not like it is actually some kind of new technology or something. 

It's not a question of technology!

Batteriser shipment depends 100% on whether Bob will have more money in his account if:
a) He manufactures something
or
b) He doesn't

If Bob's even pretending to ship something then part of the VC money must be dependent on shipment of 'final product'. Why would he bother otherwise? Because he wants to "do the right thing"?  :-DD Remember: We know for a fact that he's a lying fraudster.

Nope. The best option for Bob is obviously (b). He needs to make people believe he's shipping using just a few old prototype sleeves and a huge helping of bullshit.

Option (a) will only happen if the smoke and mirrors fail and if the amount of outstanding VC money is more than the cost of making a batch of Batterisers (nb. This might be the case, it's just not very convincing so far)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 23, 2016, 12:46:55 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 23, 2016, 12:06:57 am

If Bob's even pretending to ship something then part of the VC money must be dependent on shipment of 'final product'. Why would he bother otherwise? Because he wants to "do the right thing"?  :-DD Remember: We know for a fact that he's a lying fraudster.
Nope. The best option for Bob is obviously (b). He needs to make people believe he's shipping using just a few old prototype sleeves and a huge helping of bullshit.
Option (a) will only happen if the smoke and mirrors fail and if the amount of outstanding VC money is more than the cost of making a batch of Batterisers (nb. This might be the case, it's just not very convincing so far)

The problem with this hypothesis is how on earth you could get away with something like that? (i.e. lying to VC about something as fundamental as shipping)
Surely you are guaranteed to be caught out?
If anything Batteriser is continuing to live up to it's long earned reputation as the most bizarre campaign going around  :clap:
Which is of course why this thread is so massively popular!  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 23, 2016, 12:56:57 am

I think these dark spots on the photo are the PCB.
The rest of the board is hidden behind the internal plastic retainer wall

(http://i.imgur.com/IQcb2sG.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2016, 01:16:32 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2016, 12:56:57 am

I think these dark spots on the photo are the PCB.

Disagree.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272636;image)

Quote from: fungus

Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2016, 12:46:55 am

Nope. The best option for Bob is obviously (b). He needs to make people believe he's shipping using just a few old prototype sleeves and a huge helping of bullshit.

The problem with this hypothesis is how on earth you could get away with something like that? (i.e. lying to VC about something as fundamental as shipping) Surely you are guaranteed to be caught out?

Yeah, but... maybe there's $250,000 calling out to him. What would you do in the circumstances?  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on November 23, 2016, 01:34:14 am

Quote from: Barny on November 22, 2016, 06:43:44 pm

More interesting would be the tachometer. (mph / kph)

 Even better would be if the second pic showed the side mirror, since it is quite visible in the first pic. Looks like he is sitting stopped on the right side of the road in the first pick, and there is a car going past. In the second pic it should be gone.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: sleemanj on November 23, 2016, 01:36:27 am

Quote from: drussell on November 22, 2016, 09:52:27 pm

I can't believe how many people here are unwilling to believe that these things might actually exist.  :)

The evidence we have so far that they exist, is as far as I recall, a couple of people who are known to be acquaintances (accomplices one might say) of Bob who say "we got ours". 

One guy in Greece who has posted a couple of inconclusive pictures.

I think being sceptical is completely justified at the moment, there is perhaps more credible evidence for the existence of bigfoot.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on November 23, 2016, 01:37:53 am

Correct me if I am wrong, but ever since they got their "production" under-way, there has not been a single clear picture of the circuit board. Perhaps they didn't want to give away their "harder then iphone" manufacturing secrets several months ago, but there is no reason not to show off their technology now.

And with Christmas coming, wouldn't you want to have an Amazon store up and running? With all the free publicity they got, they could still make a killing.

You can actually buy a Batteroo on Amazon, but it is a musical track by The Planet Rockers from almost a decade ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpZGYIimjK8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpZGYIimjK8)
No-one has written a song called Batteriser yet. Probably would be a real tear-jerker.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on November 23, 2016, 01:43:03 am

Quote from: wilfred on November 23, 2016, 12:11:26 am

Quote from: amspire on November 22, 2016, 11:29:37 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 22, 2016, 11:22:29 pm

As others have pointed out, if there actually a PCB on these?

They work better without the PCB anyway.

Perhaps they work better extracting all the remaining energy by providing a direct short across the battery.

 800% faster draining of the battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 23, 2016, 01:52:05 am

Can somebody please go around and give that poor fellow a jump start, seems pretty obvious that he has no idea and perhaps doesn't fully comprehend battery technology, the Batteroo shiny things simply aren't up to the task in this instance.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on November 23, 2016, 02:28:10 am

With *any* units having left production, and Boob's obvious awareness of EEVblog, it would seem eminently positive to send some units to Dave for review - even if they suck.
That conversation would put an end to all the backroom sniggers and entertainment which this thread offers so many people*. (Be careful - Boob may decide to become an entertainer in Donald & Kanye's shadow).

I suspect 'thick-skinned' Boob likes the limelight - in the same way Donald Trump does.
It may bring him down eventually, but he has the glory, attention and fake friends - just like Donald.


* what would I read each day if Batteriseroo didn't keep us entertained?

(P.S. I apologise to my late father - also Don - for any disrespect cast on that proud Scottish name).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 23, 2016, 02:38:59 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 23, 2016, 01:16:32 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2016, 12:56:57 am

I think these dark spots on the photo are the PCB.

Disagree.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272636;image)

There is no shadow because it's behind the thick plastic divider

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 23, 2016, 02:56:12 am

Actually, I revise my thinking on this, I don't think there is a PCB.
(http://i.imgur.com/5CzM95z.png)

Note the dark half shadow through the right side "+" cutout. It's as if there is no circular PCB behind it and the shadow of the curved metal top is coming through.
Then the "+" hole next to it has a shorter shadow, then almost nothing, and then nothing on the left. Exactly what you'd expect based on the angle of the photo.

(http://i.imgur.com/tRkV32J.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 23, 2016, 03:08:31 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2016, 02:56:12 am

Actually, I revise my thinking on this, I don't think there is a PCB.
(http://i.imgur.com/5CzM95z.png)

Note the dark half shadow through the right side "+" cutout. It's as if there is no circular PCB behind it and the shadow of the curved metal top is coming through.
Then the "+" hole next to it has a shorter shadow, then almost nothing, and then nothing on the left. Exactly what you'd expect based on the angle of the photo.

My thoughts also.  These are the prototypes (w/o electronics) that were made to get the fools interested in throwing their money away.  Among other things why would they produce punched sleeves considering that it would add considerable costs, but looked cool in the prototypes.  The "Greek" is Bob sitting in his car holding his prototype.  I just get a kick out of people still believing in this.   :-DD

He is probably celebrating the fact that he bought his BMW with funds raised on this scam.  He must be a very happy man.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 23, 2016, 03:17:00 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2016, 02:56:12 am

Actually, I revise my thinking on this, I don't think there is a PCB.
(http://i.imgur.com/5CzM95z.png)

I concur.  Bros. Roohparvar have skated onto very thin legal ice with this. 

Not smart.  Not smart at all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 23, 2016, 03:27:15 am

Don't go wasting those bloody sleeves Bob, sooner or later they might come in handy for something else.   :popcorn: 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 23, 2016, 03:51:34 am

I'd be careful being too critical on this photo.  There might be a PCB in there.

Certainly the PCB will be as high up as possible, but it will be circular in shape - which means at the angle the photo was taken, it will appear as an ellipse - so you might be seeing part of the back half of the PCB.  You also only have 1mm of space for it - which, from my estimation, means it will have to fit in the space between the top of the sleeve and a point half way between there and the top edge of the '+' sign.

Also, you will note there are some moulded ribs in the case - and there appears to be the beginning of a raised section visible as one just passes under the sleeves.  This would provide lateral stability in the positioning of the sleeves - a professional touch so that they present equally spaced.  This raised section clearly could extend up far enough to be the material visible through the '+' sign cutout.  Add to that the fact that there is significant back lighting on the case - and you could well have the light pipe effect, which is going to mess up the shadow expectations.

The one thing that doesn't seem to fit is the light and dark visible through the rightmost '+' sign cutout.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 23, 2016, 04:22:35 am

Does anyone know if Las Vegas is making odds on this? 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 23, 2016, 04:52:56 am

Perhaps my biggest concern is that we may spend countless hours debating the "Why's" and "Wherefore's" of a photo such as this - and that the credibility of the Engineering fraternity as a whole is going to be defined by these types of discussion.

By casting a few morsels before the ravenous hoard and letting them go into a feeding frenzy, the apparent desperation to 'attack' is going to become the definitive measure of the Engineering position - at least as far as the public perception is concerned.  And that is all the Batteroo boys would need to do....


It may well be that they do have a product and, if so, we are already making it easier for them to release it...

1. Delays.
Once the product is actually released, then the delays will be summarily forgotten by those who have been waiting - they will be so happy to have received them!  The response from the 'faithful' will be something along the lines of "Oh, you poor little engineers.  You said there was no product - but here it is!".  Bob and Co might come up with a couple of more 'reasons' for the delays, but it won't matter.  The punters couldn't care less - they will have their sleeves.

2. Function.
Engineers (and others) have been critical of the fact that the Batteroo sleeves will not perform as (originally) advertised - but the perception has been that the Engineers are saying they will not work at all.  This is clealry an incorrect perception that only needs a sleeve to do what is expected by the customer for 60 seconds (or even less) for the howls of denigration to flow like a Tsunami.  Batteroo has won!  Forget the fact that it might cease to do so in the second minute.

Engineers have also been apprehensive about higher current capability from the beginning, but since the performance claims have been dialled back, there is less strength in that argument.


These functional failings may well have been problems that Batteroo have been trying to address, but without success - something which would be no surprise to us.  However, to successfully release the product, then they would need to do two things - manage expectations and discredit the critics.

Managing expectations has been easy.  They have simply adjusted their claims to something more modest - without saying the Engineering critics were right.  The average punter will either not have noticed and/or will see that as something they feel is more 'real'.  Remember, even some of the fanboys considered the Batteriser worth having even if it was only a quarter as good.

Discrediting the critics is going to be really simple.  The more we carry on about a range of issues, the more high profile the banner we are holding.  All Bob has to do is produce a product that does something and we will have given him the perfect distraction.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 23, 2016, 04:56:25 am

Quote from: Brumby on November 23, 2016, 04:52:56 am

Perhaps my biggest concern is that we may spend countless hours debating the "Why's" and "Wherefore's" of a photo such as this - and that the credibility of the Engineering fraternity as a whole is going to be defined by these types of discussion.

I think it's clear this is a discussion forum like any other internet forum. Posts here unless they include data or references are simply opinion and discussion.
Every post here is certainly not the industry "engineering position".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 23, 2016, 05:18:19 am

I quite agree - but the fact is that the EEVblog forum is presented as a forum for EEs and has a global credibility as such.  How many forums do Keysight take an active interest?

There is a lot of interest on this subject ... and both this forum and yourself have been cited by others.

This may not be an official EE industry platform - but as far as the internet is concerned, it is just as good.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 23, 2016, 05:22:06 am

If Bob does have a product, he is not going to be interested in fighting an engineering war - he will be focussing on marketing and spin.

Opinions expressed here will have quite enough credibility to be effective in that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on November 23, 2016, 05:24:06 am

Quote from: Brumby on November 23, 2016, 04:52:56 am

...the apparent desperation to 'attack' is going to become the definitive measure of the Engineering position - at least as far as the public perception is concerned...

That may not be a bad thing.  It separates the ''men'' from the ''boys''!

The 'non-engineering' crowd are accepted at face value for public adulation and promotion as examples of human success (ref: Kanye West, Kardashians, Donald Trump, and many others)... the values of measurement are not documented metrics of rational comparison.

If BatterBoob is trying to ascend into this crowd, he's using the right tools - wealth, loud talking, media exposure).  If he was trying to be seen as a pillar of moral & intellectual growth - he certainly would have dropped the baby Boob much earlier than this.  His high-ground of 'success' would be a much shorter step than crawling out from under all those lies and half-truths!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 23, 2016, 05:36:51 am

The PCB was always shown as being on top of the sleeve, not under a lip at the top....

So that would mean the PCB would be visible in the "backers" picture, on top of the sleeve..

(https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/v1460071410/vvr2uscpjzt3mmjbkoeo.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 23, 2016, 06:13:44 am

Another claim of someone getting one. And an excuse form Bob about tracking.

(http://i.imgur.com/ywr58px.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 23, 2016, 06:19:36 am

Quote from: wilfred on November 23, 2016, 03:33:21 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 23, 2016, 03:17:00 am

I concur.  Bros. Roohparvar have skated onto very thin legal ice with this. 

Not smart.  Not smart at all.

But do we actually know they are behind this series of photos? What could they gain from this?
I'm not saying I know they're not involved just asking what evidence exists.

I think it is a prank. Given the response, it is not a bad one. If it was someone wanting to show actual received products it could have been done more conveniently and convincingly. But it hasn't been.

I am doubting prank at this point.  Everyone is asking, "where's the product?"  Then, a photo of the outside of the package is shown in a car, in "Greece."  Then after a firestorm of criticism, the user then *returns to the car* of all places, and takes another photo of the sleeves in the package, but a a perfect angle that hides all the detail?  Not at home / in an office / elsewhere with the unit installed on a battery?  And every, single photo except for the few from early on, omits a view the PCB.  How convenient.   ::)

I've been trying to cut Bros. Roohparvar a ton of slack on this - that this was a venture intended to deliver a physical, functional product - but there has been an unambiguous pattern of calculated (mis)behavior to conceal and deceive.  I have absolutely no reason or evidence left that this supposed photo of order receipt in Greece is simply not more of the same. 

Everyone with any modicum of intellectual curiosity would take photos more illustrative than what has been shown.  I call bullshit on this Greece user.  I'm prepared to be very wrong, but I'm 99% sure I'm not. 

There will be subsequent photos.  And I'm taking beer bets on whether any of them show anything interesting. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2016, 06:43:21 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2016, 02:38:59 am

There is no shadow because it's behind the thick plastic divider

His finger is behind thick plastic and you can see it perfectly.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272671;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2016, 06:47:24 am

Quote from: ez24 on November 23, 2016, 03:08:31 am

He is probably celebrating the fact that he bought his BMW with funds raised on this scam.  He must be a very happy man.

We know he couldn't afford a new one.  :popcorn:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272667;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 23, 2016, 06:54:09 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272667;image)

When delivering to the EU, does BMW print the turn signal stalk indicators in *English*?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on November 23, 2016, 07:00:00 am

Why english? Its German -> Links / Rechts

Fun aside.
The only visible diference betweenn the US and the EU version is the kph / mph display in the tachometer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2016, 07:00:50 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 23, 2016, 06:54:09 am

When delivering to the EU, does BMW print the turn signal stalk indicators in *English*?

I believe so.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 23, 2016, 07:07:50 am

Quote from: Barny on November 23, 2016, 07:00:00 am

Why english? Its German -> Links / Rechts.

And so my movie German vocabulary of nein, achtung, and schnell fails me. :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2016, 07:09:36 am

Quote from: Barny on November 23, 2016, 07:00:00 am

Fun aside.
The only visible diference betweenn the US and the EU version is the kph / mph display in the tachometer.

The speedo in that car has the dual kph / mph markings. That suggests it's for UK/USA/etc. market (or somewhere else where they use miles).

So: How many countries use miles and have left-hand drive? Certainly not Greece.

Edit: I take that back. It's not clear if it has the dual markings or not.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on November 23, 2016, 09:03:51 am

In that particular model they only had km/h on the left hand drive EU version. So mp/h would be a give away.

For reference, here's a picture of the dash for the exact model he's sitting in: http://cdn.johnywheels.com/2015/08/24/dashboardbmw3seriescompacte460392001acirc05-l-829e4da47a5e3513.jpg (http://cdn.johnywheels.com/2015/08/24/dashboardbmw3seriescompacte460392001acirc05-l-829e4da47a5e3513.jpg)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on November 23, 2016, 09:42:23 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 23, 2016, 06:54:09 am

When delivering to the EU, does BMW print the turn signal stalk indicators in *English*?

Yes. Even Japanese brand cars sold here in Japan have English on their controls.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2016, 02:14:29 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 23, 2016, 07:07:50 am

Quote from: Barny on November 23, 2016, 07:00:00 am

Why english? Its German -> Links / Rechts.

And so my movie German vocabulary of nein, achtung, and schnell fails me. :palm:

You forgot "Raus!", "Hande hoch!" and "Nicht Schissen!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kurzweil on November 23, 2016, 02:17:19 pm

Someone else has received something:

Quote

No tracking number but I received mine today. I’m in Darwin in the Northern Territory of Australia so I expected some delays. 4 × 4 packs of AA’s. Very well packaged. Only had time to do some quick testing but they do increase the voltage (ie. 1.1v to 1.49v on 2 batteries). I’ll test them in some devices and see how they go? I’ll post some pics on my facebook page (@revivebatteries) when I get time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on November 23, 2016, 02:26:51 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 23, 2016, 02:14:29 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 23, 2016, 07:07:50 am

Quote from: Barny on November 23, 2016, 07:00:00 am

Why english? Its German -> Links / Rechts.

And so my movie German vocabulary of nein, achtung, and schnell fails me. :palm:

You forgot "Raus!", "Hande hoch!" and "Nicht Schissen!"

I think you'll find that's "Raus! Raus! Raus! Please Colonel Hogan, pleeeease."  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 23, 2016, 02:27:40 pm

Quote from: Kurzweil on November 23, 2016, 02:17:19 pm

Someone else has received something:

Quote

No tracking number but I received mine today. I’m in Darwin in the Northern Territory of Australia so I expected some delays. 4 × 4 packs of AA’s. Very well packaged. Only had time to do some quick testing but they do increase the voltage (ie. 1.1v to 1.49v on 2 batteries). I’ll test them in some devices and see how they go? I’ll post some pics on my facebook page (@revivebatteries) when I get time.

"revivebatteries" has claimed he has received them and he claims he is from Darwin. This is the same "revivebatteries"  who has "personally been to their Head Office and seen the product working"

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272770;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272768;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on November 23, 2016, 02:28:36 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 23, 2016, 02:14:29 pm

You forgot "Raus!", "Hande hoch!" and "Nicht Schissen!"

Hände
schießen

Sorry, I couldnd resist.

@Kurzweil:
If that post is legit, they are sending the batch, shown on the pic to silence the the screaming people.

It would be great if Dave get his hands at one of this Butterisers from this Australian backer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on November 23, 2016, 03:00:34 pm

 They aren't in 'English' on US models - R and L are Recht and Links, Right and Left in German.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 23, 2016, 03:03:28 pm

Revive Batteries appears to be a real business based in Darwin operated by a real person-> website is http://revivebatteries.com.au (http://revivebatteries.com.au) (appears to be down right now).

I took a screen of the cached version from Google. I blacked out the specific business contact details.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272773;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on November 23, 2016, 04:30:31 pm

So the only delivers so far are to a battery company and a guy who owns a gadget shop?  anyone else seeing a pattern here?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 23, 2016, 04:51:54 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 23, 2016, 04:30:31 pm

So the only delivers so far are to a battery company and a guy who owns a gadget shop?  anyone else seeing a pattern here?

Yes. Low yield.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2016, 05:20:05 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 23, 2016, 04:30:31 pm

So the only delivers so far are to a battery company and a guy who owns a gadget shop?  anyone else seeing a pattern here?

They're both people who think "the voltage went up" means their batteries will last longer...?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on November 23, 2016, 05:46:24 pm

Both are stores, just not as big as walmart. They do not need it to work well; they just need it to sale well or that is what they are betting on.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on November 23, 2016, 05:57:14 pm

Quote from: onlooker on November 23, 2016, 05:46:24 pm

Both are stores, just not as big as walmart. They do not need it to work well; they just need it to sale well or that is what they are betting on.

Bingo!

funny how the stores / potential resale businesses are getting them first, eh?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on November 23, 2016, 06:12:55 pm

That guy from Darwin can easily send some to Dave :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 23, 2016, 06:25:46 pm

Quote from: meeder on November 23, 2016, 06:12:55 pm

That guy from Darwin can easily send some to Dave :)

Or Dave can send someone to them

Here is their address

https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/info (https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/info)

and a unedited screen shot

It will be interesting to see what happens

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 23, 2016, 06:38:31 pm

Here is a Google Map street view of the "business".   Not what I expected.   Darwin looks interesting.

Notice the door on the trailer is open, my guess this trailer is the "business".

Do you know what this means !!!

He is driving around Australia with his Bats so no one can find him  :--   Cleaver business of Bob, send products to people and businesses that cannot be found.  That way no one can prove him wrong.  I wonder if he is paying them for this service?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 23, 2016, 07:52:14 pm

Can we agree to have ONE representative to reach out and (nicely) ask for some photos of the PCB and perhaps offer to pay for 1 or 2 and Express Post shipping to Dave's office?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 23, 2016, 08:07:35 pm

Another one?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272826;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on November 23, 2016, 08:13:41 pm

I think this is all BS, not one picture in the wild?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2016, 08:23:13 pm

Still no unambiguous photos from anybody?

Not a single camera owner or blogger got a pack...?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 23, 2016, 08:24:35 pm

Quote from: StuUK on November 23, 2016, 08:13:41 pm

I think this is all BS, not one picture in the wild?

At this point it's more likely to photograph a Yeti in the wild than a Batteriser PCB.  I'm still not buying these "reports." 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on November 23, 2016, 08:26:36 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 23, 2016, 08:24:35 pm

Quote from: StuUK on November 23, 2016, 08:13:41 pm

I think this is all BS, not one picture in the wild?

At this point it's more likely to photograph a Yeti in the wild than a Batteriser PCB.  I'm still not buying these "reports."

Exactly, nor am I, it's either trolls or propaganda...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2016, 08:29:27 pm

Quote from: meeder on November 23, 2016, 06:12:55 pm

That guy from Darwin can easily send some to Dave :)

Yep. It's a business, we have the contact details, it has to be worth a phone call just to see what they say.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 23, 2016, 08:50:42 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 23, 2016, 08:29:27 pm

Yep. It's a business, we have the contact details, it has to be worth a phone call just to see what they say.

MOD EDIT: You don't post people's contact details in here.
(from a Google search)

I am on the other side of the world.  If anyone had the balls they would start a new topic with "Anyone from Darwin here ?" in the title

The problem is the business is out of a trailer (if still in business)

Strange:  Darwin is on a different clock than the world, for example Google says their time is  (GMT+9:30)

This is the first time I have come across a 1/2 hour time zone.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 23, 2016, 09:05:47 pm

Quote from: ez24 on November 23, 2016, 08:50:42 pm

The problem is the business is out of a trailer (if still in business)

He is still in business. The post he did 14 hours ago references his business Facebook page. Why would he do that if he went out of business?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272832;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2016, 09:08:38 pm

Quote from: quad on November 23, 2016, 09:05:47 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272832;image)

Yeah, posting pics on facebook takes ages. It's really a lot of work.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 23, 2016, 09:14:31 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 23, 2016, 09:08:38 pm

Quote from: quad on November 23, 2016, 09:05:47 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272832;image)

Yeah, posting pics on facebook takes ages. It's really a lot of work.

You have to go out and buy film, take your photos, finish the film (you don't want to waste it) send it off to get developed, that will take a week, then you'll need to find someone with a scanner, so much work!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 23, 2016, 09:22:56 pm

Does anybody known which side the steering wheel is on in Darwin ?.   :-//

Why did I even ask that question ?, dummkopf.   ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Arjan Emm on November 23, 2016, 09:30:13 pm

Quote from: ez24 on November 23, 2016, 08:50:42 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 23, 2016, 08:29:27 pm

Yep. It's a business, we have the contact details, it has to be worth a phone call just to see what they say.

Strange:  Darwin is on a different clock than the world, for example Google says their time is  (GMT+9:30)

This is the first time I have come across a 1/2 hour time zone.

It used to be minutes between cities in europe before time zones were invented. Half hours were not uncommon till only a few decades back. As time got more important  , the time zones got wider till one hour zones. wich are much easier to calculate with.
Science only really needs the seconds to planck time region and you simply discard the hours  as long as the timing is right, nothing can go wrong ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on November 23, 2016, 09:45:38 pm

Quote from: quad on November 23, 2016, 09:05:47 pm

Quote from: ez24 on November 23, 2016, 08:50:42 pm

The problem is the business is out of a trailer (if still in business)

He is still in business. The post he did 14 hours ago references his business Facebook page. Why would he do that if he went out of business?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272832;image)

Seems like Wayne Plume runs a number of battery businesses in NT. Maybe it's worth while sending him an e-mail asking him for detailed photos of one of his Batterisers, you know, for the good of science. Although I'm curious, why would someone who obviously has knowledge of battery technologies bother buying a Batteriser?!

Quote from: AmmoJammo on November 23, 2016, 05:36:51 am

The PCB was always shown as being on top of the sleeve, not under a lip at the top....

So that would mean the PCB would be visible in the "backers" picture, on top of the sleeve..

(https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/v1460071410/vvr2uscpjzt3mmjbkoeo.jpg)

Well spotted.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 23, 2016, 09:48:17 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on November 23, 2016, 09:22:56 pm

Does anybody known which side the steering wheel is on in Darwin ?.   :-//

Why did I even ask that question ?, dummkopf.   ::)

On the wrong side, not the same as the Greek car

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 23, 2016, 09:53:24 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on November 23, 2016, 09:22:56 pm

Does anybody known which side the steering wheel is on in Darwin ?.   :-//

Why did I even ask that question ?, dummkopf.   ::)

Left/right is not the problem.  They drive upside down in Darwin and through some miracle reversal of physics the cars manage not to fall off the road and into the sky. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 23, 2016, 10:03:45 pm

Quote from: quad on November 23, 2016, 02:27:40 pm

Quote from: Kurzweil on November 23, 2016, 02:17:19 pm

Someone else has received something:

Quote

No tracking number but I received mine today. I’m in Darwin in the Northern Territory of Australia so I expected some delays. 4 × 4 packs of AA’s. Very well packaged. Only had time to do some quick testing but they do increase the voltage (ie. 1.1v to 1.49v on 2 batteries). I’ll test them in some devices and see how they go? I’ll post some pics on my facebook page (@revivebatteries) when I get time.

"revivebatteries" has claimed he has received them and he claims he is from Darwin. This is the same "revivebatteries"  who has "personally been to their Head Office and seen the product working"

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272770;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272768;image)

Another coincident that only someone who knows Bob personally has gotten them and reported in.
The other verified one of course is Bob's former college at Flextronics.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 23, 2016, 11:21:37 pm

I will PayPal $50 USD today ( today is defined as 12 hours from this post) to one of these recipients in Greece or Australia or anywhere who can photograph their received Batterisers on top of today's dated newspaper with the PCB and components clearly visible from the top and bottom here on this forum.  It ain't the LOTTO, but it's a decent wage for a few minutes of trouble. 

If you don't want to establish an account here, just PM me and I will give you my email address. 

This is a genuine offer.  Surely this must be simple to do. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 23, 2016, 11:24:41 pm

$$$$   :-+ :)


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272867;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 23, 2016, 11:27:34 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 23, 2016, 11:21:37 pm

If you don't want to establish an account here, just PM me and I will give you my email address. 

You can't PM someone without an account.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 23, 2016, 11:29:49 pm

Quote from: quad on November 23, 2016, 08:07:35 pm

Another one?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272826;image)

I don't see that post on IGG  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 23, 2016, 11:30:31 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on November 23, 2016, 11:24:41 pm

$$$$   :-+ :)

Took me a few minutes to get this  :-DD :-DD :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 23, 2016, 11:33:14 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 23, 2016, 11:21:37 pm

I will PayPal $50 USD today ( today is defined as 12 hours from this post) to one of these recipients in Greece or Australia or anywhere who can photograph their received Batterisers on top of today's dated newspaper with the PCB and components clearly visible from the top and bottom here on this forum.  It ain't the LOTTO, but it's a decent wage for a few minutes of trouble. 

If you don't want to establish an account here, just PM me and I will give you my email address. 

This is a genuine offer.  Surely this must be simple to do.

Why don't you just call Charles?  Dial 011 first then the number, and ask if he takes Paypal

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 23, 2016, 11:49:16 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2016, 11:27:34 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 23, 2016, 11:21:37 pm

If you don't want to establish an account here, just PM me and I will give you my email address. 

You can't PM someone without an account.

My handle @gmail will work fine then.  For the price of a newspaper and some bits, someone's Batteriser sleeves will essentially be free. 

I'm actually working on firmware between breaks or I would Skype the guy in Aussieland. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ludzinc on November 24, 2016, 12:06:08 am

I'm in Adelaide, same GMT offset so I gave the guy a call.

Long story short, he claims to have 4 packs and wants to be the Aussie distributor.

I asked him for pics, he's promised to email them to me.

This bloke sounds legit - to the point  he wants to share his test data, but he's a bit flat out at the moment.

Apparently all these people keep calling him about his batterisers.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 12:10:35 am

Quote from: ludzinc on November 24, 2016, 12:06:08 am

I'm in Adelaide, same GMT offset so I gave the guy a call.
Long story short, he claims to have 4 packs and wants to be the Aussie distributor.

That's the only thing that makes sense around here!

Now, once again it's an interesting coincidence that of 3 of the 5 people have claimed the receive them now:
One is proven to be Bob's colleague from Flextronics. One is this wannabe Oz distributor who has visited them personally. And one is a mystery guy in Greece.
Does that sound like a  random allocation of Indiegogo shipments to backers?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 24, 2016, 12:13:46 am

Quote from: ludzinc on November 24, 2016, 12:06:08 am

I'm in Adelaide, same GMT offset so I gave the guy a call.

Long story short, he claims to have 4 packs and wants to be the Aussie distributor.

I asked him for pics, he's promised to email them to me.

This bloke sounds legit - to the point  he wants to share his test data, but he's a bit flat out at the moment.

Apparently all these people keep calling him about his batterisers.....

Everyone should watch Godfather then make him an offer he cannot refuse.  Already someone offered $50 for pics.

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on November 24, 2016, 12:19:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 12:10:35 am

Quote from: ludzinc on November 24, 2016, 12:06:08 am

I'm in Adelaide, same GMT offset so I gave the guy a call.
Long story short, he claims to have 4 packs and wants to be the Aussie distributor.

That's the only thing that makes sense around here!

Now, once again it's an interesting coincidence that 3 people have claimed the receive them now.
One is proven to be Bob's colleague from Flextronics. One is this wannabe Oz distributor who has visited them personally. And one is a mystery guy in Greece.
Does that sound like a a random allocation of Indiegogo shipments to backers?

Here's my theory on what's happening:

There's major money on the line from a VC or big retail outlet that hinges on them actually shipping something to existing retailers or distributors. However, they still don't have an actual DFM product ready to ship en mass. They can't finish production without this infusion of cash...

So, they announced they're shipping to secure this money. Now, they know they can't come up with another excuse for a delay, because they've already announced they're shipping. So, they're shipping hand assembled prototypes, made with original Batteriser test casings, plastic cases and packaging test prints from last year.

They're shipping these out to a few choice retailers/distributors as representative samples. They'll then point the investors to these people as proof they're actually shipping a product.

This theory explains everything.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 24, 2016, 12:23:17 am

Quote from: timb on November 24, 2016, 12:19:29 am

Here's my theory on what's happening:

There's major money on the line from a VC or big retail outlet that hinges on them actually shipping something to existing retailers or distributors. However, they still don't have an actual DFM product ready to ship en mass. They can't finish production without this infusion of cash...

So, they announced they're shipping to secure this money. Now, they know they can't come up with another excuse for a delay, because they've already announced they're shipping. So, they're shipping hand assembled prototypes, made with original Batteriser test casings, plastic cases and packaging test prints from last year.

They're shipping these out to a few choice retailers/distributors as representative samples. They'll then point the investors to these people as proof they're actually shipping a product.

This theory explains everything.

I like your theory - it makes sense  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 12:30:05 am

Quote from: timb on November 24, 2016, 12:19:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 12:10:35 am

Quote from: ludzinc on November 24, 2016, 12:06:08 am

I'm in Adelaide, same GMT offset so I gave the guy a call.
Long story short, he claims to have 4 packs and wants to be the Aussie distributor.

That's the only thing that makes sense around here!

Now, once again it's an interesting coincidence that 3 people have claimed the receive them now.
One is proven to be Bob's colleague from Flextronics. One is this wannabe Oz distributor who has visited them personally. And one is a mystery guy in Greece.
Does that sound like a a random allocation of Indiegogo shipments to backers?

Here's my theory on what's happening:

There's major money on the line from a VC or big retail outlet that hinges on them actually shipping something to existing retailers or distributors. However, they still don't have an actual DFM product ready to ship en mass. They can't finish production without this infusion of cash...

So, they announced they're shipping to secure this money. Now, they know they can't come up with another excuse for a delay, because they've already announced they're shipping. So, they're shipping hand assembled prototypes, made with original Batteriser test casings, plastic cases and packaging test prints from last year.

They're shipping these out to a few choice retailers/distributors as representative samples. They'll then point the investors to these people as proof they're actually shipping a product.

This theory explains everything.

There's clearly something going on in the background with SKTA trying to shop the product or the entire company.  And whoever they are selling to is reading these threads.

The bounty stands.  If you've got it today.  I'll pay you to show us today. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 24, 2016, 01:14:16 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 23, 2016, 11:29:49 pm

Quote from: quad on November 23, 2016, 08:07:35 pm

Another one?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272826;image)

I don't see that post on IGG  :-//

Still there for me

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272893;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on November 24, 2016, 02:06:16 am

Quote from: ludzinc on November 24, 2016, 12:06:08 am

I'm in Adelaide, same GMT offset so I gave the guy a call.

Long story short, he claims to have 4 packs and wants to be the Aussie distributor.

I asked him for pics, he's promised to email them to me.

This bloke sounds legit - to the point  he wants to share his test data, but he's a bit flat out at the moment.

Apparently all these people keep calling him about his batterisers.....

Good work  :-+

Is he aware of Dave's videos and this thread? Perhaps he would be willing to contribute some meaningful data to the forum? I doubt he is bound by any kind of non-disclosure agreement. Dave, maybe there is a trip to the top end coming up ;-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 02:07:17 am

I contacted Wayne (Revive Batteries)and here is his reply he said I can post:

Quote

G'day Dave,
 Why the fuck would I engage with a complete tosser like you?
I've seen all the shit on your blog.
Never seen a bigger collection of wankers in one place in my life.
 
I do have the batterisers - whether they work or not, I'm yet to find out?
The only tests I've done to date are simple voltage readings and yes they do increase by about 25% - 30% (ie. 1.15 volts to 1.49 volts etc.)
I have some products that use AA batteries and will be testing them soon when I have some time.
 
I am not a personal friend of any of the Batteroo people.
I have been following this since conception and have been in regular contact with them about being a reseller in Aus.
Obviously there is a huge potential to make money if they do work.
In October I went to the Desert Trip concert in Palm Springs US and took the time to drive up to Sunnyvale and meet with some of the Batteroo people.
 
No, I will not sell any to you - you couldn't pay me enough.
Given all the bullshit flying around about this I'm going to make the time to put some photos on my facebook page shortly.
 
Why not copy and paste this entire email on your blog ????

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 02:11:22 am

Quote from: ludzinc on November 24, 2016, 12:06:08 am

I'm in Adelaide, same GMT offset so I gave the guy a call.

Long story short, he claims to have 4 packs and wants to be the Aussie distributor.

Anyone "receiving" a Batteriser that *doesn't* have a severe conflict of interest?!   :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 24, 2016, 02:12:47 am

 He posted pics.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on November 24, 2016, 02:13:15 am

Sounds like a nice chap.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on November 24, 2016, 02:13:39 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 02:07:17 am

I contacted Wayne and here is his reply he said I can post:

Quote

G'day Dave,
 Why the fuck would I engage with a complete tosser like you?
I've seen all the shit on your blog.
Never seen a bigger collection of wankers in one place in my life.
 
I do have the batterisers - whether they work or not, I'm yet to find out?
The only tests I've done to date are simple voltage readings and yes they do increase by about 25% - 30% (ie. 1.15 volts to 1.49 volts etc.)
I have some products that use AA batteries and will be testing them soon when I have some time.
 
I am not a personal friend of any of the Batteroo people.
I have been following this since conception and have been in regular contact with them about being a reseller in Aus.
Obviously there is a huge potential to make money if they do work.
In October I went to the Desert Trip concert in Palm Springs US and took the time to drive up to Sunnyvale and meet with some of the Batteroo people.
 
No, I will not sell any to you - you couldn't pay me enough.
Given all the bullshit flying around about this I'm going to make the time to put some photos on my facebook page shortly.
 
Why not copy and paste this entire email on your blog ????

What a lovely bloke! I hope Wayne Plume of Revive Batteries (https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries), Darwin NT treats his customers better than he responds to reasonable e-mails from a reasonable person. He certainly appears to have a high opinion of himself.

Poor form mate.  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 02:18:14 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on November 24, 2016, 02:12:47 am

He posted pics.

He did:
https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/ (https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/)

(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15203133_1266112966788404_6666835121726167959_n.jpg?oh=a1a21a1b5c4cf0218e5a92be339264f6&oe=58BFCD44)
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15219564_1266112963455071_6660688374966208047_n.jpg?oh=1807d446123b06353044b21989e99d5b&oe=58B8AAF0)
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15136000_1266112970121737_7168087519265687498_n.jpg?oh=c75d947129396de1a687920fc21815ef&oe=58BCD07C)
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15203144_1266113026788398_8987065664702212905_n.jpg?oh=2f9a91b29937173b39f3c3b48a9d5d9e&oe=58BEA687)
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15178255_1266115140121520_4218271742108812938_n.jpg?oh=5fbb7c1da392c5289a819d151e99f04d&oe=58BE73F6)
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15193565_1266115083454859_4750184090330109692_n.jpg?oh=9f980ced03bf7203f4ed1b5b987787c5&oe=58BE3343)
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15179167_1266115076788193_2921719677444879204_n.jpg?oh=ad83e015488da065bf7f7dc858194572&oe=58C73150)


So 100% confirmed, they are real and have arrived.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on November 24, 2016, 02:21:35 am

Note:

From the return shipping address these were shipped from Batteroo direct, by USPS.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 24, 2016, 02:24:37 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on November 24, 2016, 02:21:35 am

Note:

From the return shipping address these were shipped from Batteroo direct, by USPS.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

That means shipping hasn't started at all...  unless they plan to spend 20 bucks sending a $10 item to each backer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: johndoe123 on November 24, 2016, 02:25:09 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 02:07:17 am

I contacted Wayne (Revive Batteries)and here is his reply he said I can post:

Quote

G'day Dave,
 Why the fuck would I engage with a complete tosser like you?
I've seen all the shit on your blog.
Never seen a bigger collection of wankers in one place in my life.
 
I do have the batterisers - whether they work or not, I'm yet to find out?
The only tests I've done to date are simple voltage readings and yes they do increase by about 25% - 30% (ie. 1.15 volts to 1.49 volts etc.)
I have some products that use AA batteries and will be testing them soon when I have some time.
 
I am not a personal friend of any of the Batteroo people.
I have been following this since conception and have been in regular contact with them about being a reseller in Aus.
Obviously there is a huge potential to make money if they do work.
In October I went to the Desert Trip concert in Palm Springs US and took the time to drive up to Sunnyvale and meet with some of the Batteroo people.
 
No, I will not sell any to you - you couldn't pay me enough.
Given all the bullshit flying around about this I'm going to make the time to put some photos on my facebook page shortly.
 
Why not copy and paste this entire email on your blog ????

some is angry seeing his business going down the drain

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JimRemington on November 24, 2016, 02:26:08 am

Reviver:

Please be sure to post how well your customers are satisfied with their Batterisers, in a year or so. 
On the other hand, by then it probably won't matter.

Cheers, Jim

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on November 24, 2016, 02:30:11 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on November 24, 2016, 02:24:37 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on November 24, 2016, 02:21:35 am

Note:

From the return shipping address these were shipped from Batteroo direct, by USPS.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

That means shipping hasn't started at all...  unless they plan to spend 20 bucks sending a $10 item to each backer.

And no respectable shipping company would hand write the customs declaration.

The few Batterisers that have been shipped are obviously targeting potential resellers.


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on November 24, 2016, 02:34:46 am

...and haven't come off a production line by the thousand in China...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 24, 2016, 02:34:55 am

I reckon it's one of the review kits they mentioned months ago. No other reason to get the shipping box printed
I suspect they haven't actually gone into full production yet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 02:38:14 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 23, 2016, 11:21:37 pm

I will PayPal $50 USD today ( today is defined as 12 hours from this post) to one of these recipients in Greece or Australia or anywhere who can photograph their received Batterisers on top of today's dated newspaper with the PCB and components clearly visible from the top and bottom here on this forum.  It ain't the LOTTO, but it's a decent wage for a few minutes of trouble. 

If you don't want to establish an account here, just PM me and I will give you my email address. 

This is a genuine offer.  Surely this must be simple to do.

^This was the offer.  Top *and* bottom of the PCB.  If this product is in the wild, I have no idea why the underside of the PCB is such a secret. 

And you can feel free to email me, *politely*.  My email is my username here at gmail-dot-com.  I have offered to offer compensation for your trouble to properly document the receipt of a production product.  We are all *still* waiting after well over a year to actually see one of these.

The stories on this are still completely contradictory.  Bob Roohparvar tells tales of a fulfillment company.  Yet the "fulfillment company" for the supposed product you received from from Batteroo proper. 

Please show me something that makes sense under the conditions I listed and I will happily transfer the funds. 

Thank you.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 24, 2016, 02:44:09 am

It's a damned shame that the attitudes and social skills of the Batteroo fan boy group hasn't improved in the slightest over all this time, some simply don't know any better I suppose.

 :-BROKE   

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 02:47:22 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on November 24, 2016, 02:21:35 am

From the return shipping address these were shipped from Batteroo direct, by USPS.

Yep.
No logistics company is going to hand write a CN22 customs form.
And IIRC, I'm pretty sure Bob said or implied these were shipping from China?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 02:54:55 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 02:47:22 am

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on November 24, 2016, 02:21:35 am

From the return shipping address these were shipped from Batteroo direct, by USPS.

Yep.
No logistics company is going to hand write a CN22 customs form.
And IIRC, I'm pretty sure Bob said or implied these were shipping from China?

Jeezus! I'm a total luddite and I haven't hand-written a customs form in over a decade.  And who uses their fancy shelf/display packaging as the shipping box? 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 02:56:49 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 02:38:14 am

^This was the offer.  Top *and* bottom of the PCB.  If this product is in the wild, I have no idea why the underside of the PCB is such a secret. 

I'm sure there is no conspiracy going on here. I believe Wayne when he says the product "works" and boosts the voltage to 1.5V. There is no question they have made a product that does this.
But of course, anyone can make a tiny boost converter with half a dozen parts, it's the performance of the device to meet the claims in actual products doing true controlled testing we care about.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 02:58:31 am

And can we all agree that the IC and the inductor on the underside of the PCB really is the money shot?  I don't think we've ever seen either.  And I'm sure we haven't seen either because 14 minutes after we do, Jay Diddy B's going to have it modeled in Spice and a PCB spat out of his mill...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 02:59:40 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 02:56:49 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 02:38:14 am

^This was the offer.  Top *and* bottom of the PCB.  If this product is in the wild, I have no idea why the underside of the PCB is such a secret. 

I'm sure there is no conspiracy going on here. I believe Wayne when he says the product "works" and boosts the voltage to 1.5V. There is no question they have made a product that does this.
But of course, anyone can make a tiny boost converter with half a dozen parts, it's the performance of the device to meet the claims in actual products doing true controlled testing we care about.

Dave,

If you can PM me the guy's email address, I will PayPal him the money simply out of good faith.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 03:04:06 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 02:59:40 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 02:56:49 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 02:38:14 am

^This was the offer.  Top *and* bottom of the PCB.  If this product is in the wild, I have no idea why the underside of the PCB is such a secret. 

I'm sure there is no conspiracy going on here. I believe Wayne when he says the product "works" and boosts the voltage to 1.5V. There is no question they have made a product that does this.
But of course, anyone can make a tiny boost converter with half a dozen parts, it's the performance of the device to meet the claims in actual products doing true controlled testing we care about.

Dave,

If you can PM me the guy's email address, I will PayPal him the money simply out of good faith.

email on the way to him.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 03:06:26 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 02:58:31 am

And can we all agree that the IC and the inductor on the underside of the PCB really is the money shot?  I don't think we've ever seen either.  And I'm sure we haven't seen either because 14 minutes after we do, Jay Diddy B's going to have it modeled in Spice and a PCB spat out of his mill...

We have seen a bottom side photo I'm sure, at least the blank layout. It's a SOT3-6 or something and in/out cap and the inductor.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 03:08:15 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 02:54:55 am

Jeezus! I'm a total luddite and I haven't hand-written a customs form in over a decade. 

This one was clearly sent over the counter from the local post office.

Quote

And who uses their fancy shelf/display packaging as the shipping box?

That makes sense to me. I would for such a product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 24, 2016, 03:17:07 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 02:07:17 am

I contacted Wayne (Revive Batteries)and here is his reply he said I can post:

Quote

G'day Dave,
 Why the fuck would I engage with a complete tosser like you?
I've seen all the shit on your blog.
Never seen a bigger collection of wankers in one place in my life.
 
I do have the batterisers - whether they work or not, I'm yet to find out?
The only tests I've done to date are simple voltage readings and yes they do increase by about 25% - 30% (ie. 1.15 volts to 1.49 volts etc.)
I have some products that use AA batteries and will be testing them soon when I have some time.
 
I am not a personal friend of any of the Batteroo people.
I have been following this since conception and have been in regular contact with them about being a reseller in Aus.
Obviously there is a huge potential to make money if they do work.
In October I went to the Desert Trip concert in Palm Springs US and took the time to drive up to Sunnyvale and meet with some of the Batteroo people.
 
No, I will not sell any to you - you couldn't pay me enough.
Given all the bullshit flying around about this I'm going to make the time to put some photos on my facebook page shortly.
 
Why not copy and paste this entire email on your blog ????

Best laugh I have had in a long time  :-DD :-DD :-DD   You need to get him on your show, see if you can interview him on your radio show.  He sounds like a comedian. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 03:17:11 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 03:06:26 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 02:58:31 am

And can we all agree that the IC and the inductor on the underside of the PCB really is the money shot?  I don't think we've ever seen either.  And I'm sure we haven't seen either because 14 minutes after we do, Jay Diddy B's going to have it modeled in Spice and a PCB spat out of his mill...

We have seen a bottom side photo I'm sure, at least the blank layout. It's a SOT3-6 or something and in/out cap and the inductor.

All I've seen is the partially stuffed PCB with obviously unstuffed inductor.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on November 24, 2016, 03:20:40 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 02:58:31 am

And can we all agree that the IC and the inductor on the underside of the PCB really is the money shot?  I don't think we've ever seen either.  And I'm sure we haven't seen either because 14 minutes after we do, Jay Diddy B's going to have it modeled in Spice and a PCB spat out of his mill...

I don't even have to start from scratch, I can edit this one:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=196665;image)

So we can shave a couple of minutes off the time...

I think we are going to find that the bottom side, the inside, is potted. The reason is that these pictures look like an attempt to get the potting process right.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272919;image)

I also believe the story that they have a custom integrated circuit:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=272921;image)

I started a thread discussing the ic, August 2015.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/guess-the-batteriser-ic/msg741281/#msg741281 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/guess-the-batteriser-ic/msg741281/#msg741281)

I suggested that they would need a custom ic and it would be difficult. The reason it is difficult, is the voltage is so low. You have to be able start the circuit from about 0.8V and run with a 1.5 rail. You can power the circuit from the output, after starting. In addition you need be able to run in an energy saving mode to get low quiescent current. For this application the quiescent current should be around 10uA.

There are no commercial ics for this, because most applications would be for more than one cell. There are lots of options for Li-ion or multiple alkaline cells.

I have pretty good idea how the Batteriser will behave from the characteristics of the one that I built and forum member 5ky tested in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00YYQxOn2YE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00YYQxOn2YE)

The screen is black for the first few minutes, but then there is some video.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 03:25:45 am

Quote from: wilfred on November 24, 2016, 03:21:39 am

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on November 24, 2016, 02:16:43 am

Since he called all of us wankers, can I call him a douchebag?

No.

I agree, doesn't accomplish anything.
Let's show him and everyone else the real performance of this thing with actual data.
Although I would encourage Wayne to actually test these things properly. With a conversion efficiency graph for different loads, and controlled product testing.
I have the spreadsheet and instruction available for the latter:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18K9c2YAT0d0QABGYGpzItbvDcgfAQCRUtloEzzfXADU/edit?usp=sharing

People can send be results and I'll add them to the table

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 24, 2016, 03:26:39 am

Won't the prongs break off when pushing it in a tight fit or catching on metal connectors ?  Maybe this is the reason for "carefully install"  and limited use ?  Physically this seems like a failure.

Edit:

I just looked inside my stereo system (AAA MP3 player) and the top of the AAA cell goes into a recessed area that is just wide enough for the top of the battery.  I  am sure these would not fit.  Normally when I slide in a battery the top slides along plastic before it goes in.  If I were careful enough, the spring at the negative end gives way enough that the prongs would not hit the plastic, but it would take practice to avoid damage.  I think a re-seller is going to have a lot of returns and therefore trouble.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 03:29:22 am

If the electronics are potted, that has to be a total manufacturing train wreck. I could sure see an epoxy dot covering a chip-on-board though.  If the silicon's truly custom, why bother with packaging which will only make the foot print larger?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on November 24, 2016, 03:39:37 am

Hi,

It pretty much has to be potted, or insulated, because the entire top surface (and the sides) is the positive terminal.

There is not a lot of room on a AAA cell. I have designed a board for AAA but never built it.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 03:53:42 am

This is the email that comes if you got shipped a unit.
Courtesy of Wayne.

Quote

Dear Friends and supporters of Batteroo,
First off, I want to express my sincere thanks and gratitude for your support of the company through participating in our Indiegogo campaign. As we shipped the product, you were in the first wave of recipients of the product. By now, I am hoping and pretty sure that you have received your Batteroo sleeves and may have had a chance to play with them. We would love to hear from you with your comments, hopefully positive, but if not, we are still interested in learning about your experience with the devices. We are at the beginning of our journey to help everyone save money and time and help our environment; and we feel we are going to learn a lot.
As we mentioned in the earlier email to our Indiegogo supporters, we apologized for being late; and hinted at some of the difficulties we faced. Now that we have shipped the product, perhaps in the future, we can write a book on our adventure; and who knows, someone may turn the book into a movie like “who killed the Electric Car?”. Our only wish is that you hopefully feel that the product was worth the wait. Given all the delays however, we seemed to have developed a vocal minority of folks that are convinced this product is not going to ever ship. To remedy the situation, we would like to ask a favor of you. For those who have gotten the product, we would be grateful if you let the community know that it is actually here and you have received it. You can do that by going to Indiegogo campaign and write a comment to that fact. It would also be very helpful to us if you could mention the product, and you having received them on other social channels like Facebook, Instagram or Twitter. Any pictures of the product in your house and perhaps in a product would go a long way to put their minds to ease. Of course, any positive comments you may have is always appreciated. Once again , thank you for all your support up to now and thanks in advance for helping us with this campaign to let people know the product is real and works great….
Best,
Frankie Roohparvar

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 24, 2016, 03:59:23 am

How much would it cost to design and make these?   Since these need custom ICs and exotic metal working and fittings, thus special tools.  What would a reasonable cost be?  It appears that 350k was not enough and Bob is looking for more money.

Would $1,000,000 US successfully bring a product like this to market?   Just curious

thanks

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 04:03:03 am

OK, got an email from Wayne.  The poor guy is frustrated.   :(

Wayne, please let me apologize to you publicly if you felt trolled.  No one is against you.  I'm sorry if you feel mistreated.  That was not my intent, but probably the end result of my posts.  Bad on me. 

Please keep working with the sleeves and let us know how they work.  We're all pretty excited to see these things run through their paces. 

Good luck to you!  You're good people.   :-+

===============================
ETA: I have made good on my offer to Wayne. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 04:20:07 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 04:03:03 am

OK, got an email from Wayne.  The poor guy is frustrated.   :(
Wayne, please let me apologize to you publicly if you felt trolled.  No one is against you.  I'm sorry if you feel mistreated.  That was not my intent, but probably the end result of my posts.  Bad on me. 
Please keep working with the sleeves and let us know how they work.  We're all pretty excited to see these things run through their paces. 
Good luck to you!  You're good people.   :-+

I'm also politely conversing with Wayne on this, and he seems quite keen to do some testing on these and he has Battery experience.
As someone with Batterisers in hand, this is a really good thing.
So please, be kind to Wayne everyone, he's here to help.
Not sure if he'll join the forum or not, but I can pass on results.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on November 24, 2016, 05:00:03 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 04:20:07 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 04:03:03 am

OK, got an email from Wayne.  The poor guy is frustrated.   :(
Wayne, please let me apologize to you publicly if you felt trolled.  No one is against you.  I'm sorry if you feel mistreated.  That was not my intent, but probably the end result of my posts.  Bad on me. 
Please keep working with the sleeves and let us know how they work.  We're all pretty excited to see these things run through their paces. 
Good luck to you!  You're good people.   :-+

I'm also politely conversing with Wayne on this, and he seems quite keen to do some testing on these and he has Battery experience.
As someone with Batterisers in hand, this is a really good thing.
So please, be kind to Wayne everyone, he's here to help.
Not sure if he'll join the forum or not, but I can pass on results.

Let's hope so, however basically abusing you and the forum members here was just poor form, frustrated or not. I'm sure everyone would welcome him on the forum.

The point of this entire thing is that no one wanted Batteriser to fail, why would we? It's just their claims and excuse after excuse after excuse is what caused this entire mess. Had Batteroo just been honest rather than fabricate and/or manipulate test data, certifications, etc... etc... no one would really give a toss.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 24, 2016, 05:01:14 am

Wayne - if you get to read this then please do not take offence at any of the opinions expressed here.  I can only speak for myself, of course, but I think there will be a great many members who have had fair cause to be sceptical.  Some may have taken things to the extreme - but that's not exactly a rare thing on forums.

Despite all the hoo-haa, it has been a fervent hope of many people here that the Batteroo sleeve did actually make it out into the market.  Certainly everyone would want to know how it performs - whether to simply confirm their own engineering expectations or to see if Batteroo have done something special.

I don't expect it will deliver anything startling - but I can imagine it could prove useful in some situations.  I, for one, am keen to see what test results you get.  Hope to see some in the not-too-distant future.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 24, 2016, 05:03:01 am

Quote from: Halcyon on November 24, 2016, 05:00:03 am

The point of this entire thing is that no one wanted Batteriser to fail, why would we? It's just their claims and excuse after excuse after excuse is what caused this entire mess. Had Batteroo just been honest rather than fabricate and/or manipulate test data, certifications, etc... etc... no one would really give a toss.

Pretty much.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 24, 2016, 05:11:08 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 04:20:07 am

I'm also politely conversing with Wayne on this, and he seems quite keen to do some testing on these and he has Battery experience.
As someone with Batterisers in hand, this is a really good thing.
So please, be kind to Wayne everyone, he's here to help.
Not sure if he'll join the forum or not, but I can pass on results.

It is funny that Australia would be the fist landing spot for these.   :-//   This has been like watching for aliens and they landed in Australia.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: sleemanj on November 24, 2016, 05:19:33 am

So, something exists, I think most will now be convinced of this.  Cool.

Now the question shifts from "does anything actually exist" (why Bob thought it a good idea to leave that question debated due to lack of sufficient evidence for so long I don't know, crazy) to "does it meet the promised specifications".

So has anybody put together a list of said promised specifications, I think some were (maybe quietly) dropped or changed, so I suppose one also needs to decide if they should still be tested or not.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on November 24, 2016, 05:48:08 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 02:07:17 am

No, I will not sell any to you - you couldn't pay me enough.

You under estimate the power of our forums and how badly we want to disprove this thing...

This guy knows he talking to engineers right? Money is no object to us!  :box:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 24, 2016, 05:50:17 am

Quote from: sleemanj on November 24, 2016, 05:19:33 am

So, something exists, I think most will now be convinced of this.  Cool.

Now the question shifts from "does anything actually exist" (why Bob thought it a good idea to leave that question debated due to lack of sufficient evidence for so long I don't know, crazy) to "does it meet the promised specifications".

So has anybody put together a list of said promised specifications, I think some were (maybe quietly) dropped or changed, so I suppose one also needs to decide if they should still be tested or not.

How about the prongs  see pic

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: fubar.gr on November 24, 2016, 08:27:38 am

I just contacted the Greek guy by phone, to ask him if he has any Batteriser for sale.

Apparently, these are just samples, and shipments are expected to start on the new year.

He also told me it does indeed work as advertised.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on November 24, 2016, 09:06:58 am

Credit where credit is due. One thing I can say about what Wayne received is the packaging looks pretty slick.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on November 24, 2016, 09:13:54 am

That PCB edge looks like a rat's been having a good chew on it though:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48950.0;attach=272937;image)
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15178255_1266115140121520_4218271742108812938_n.jpg?oh=5fbb7c1da392c5289a819d151e99f04d&oe=58BE73F6)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on November 24, 2016, 09:36:00 am

Does anyone see a CE mark, or any other mandatory approval mark, anywhere on the product or its packaging?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 09:40:23 am

Quote from: fubar.gr on November 24, 2016, 08:27:38 am

I just contacted the Greek guy by phone, to ask him if he has any Batteriser for sale.
Apparently, these are just samples, and shipments are expected to start on the new year.

Very interesting.
This would explain the relatively few people who have gotten them so far.
Also, how would a random IGG backer who was lucky enough to get one of the first units possibly know that information?

Quote

He also told me it does indeed work as advertised.

ARGH!  |O
We are going to hear this time and time again after everyone gets one.
They will measure the output voltage and it will be 1.5V on a dead battery. Or they will plug it into their product and the battery gauge will go to 100%
This is of course fully expected. Of course a voltage boost converter containing 4 parts works, it's electronics 101.
The product "working" and actually getting anywhere near the claims that have been made are two entirely different things.

I've said it before and I'll say it again for those non-technical people who might happen upon the forum, in extra bold large font size and bright colour for easy reference  ;D

There isn't a single engineer on the planet that even remotely doubts the Batteriser will "work" as a boost converter and give you 1.5V output from a "dead" or "used" battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 24, 2016, 09:41:56 am

Quote from: AndyC_772 on November 24, 2016, 09:36:00 am

Does anyone see a CE mark, or any other mandatory approval mark, anywhere on the product or its packaging?

Quote from: fubar.gr on November 24, 2016, 08:27:38 am

Apparently, these are just samples, and shipments are expected to start on the new year.

If these are just a very limited batch of samples, they probably don't need the approval mark

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 24, 2016, 09:42:32 am

Quote from: fubar.gr on November 24, 2016, 08:27:38 am

I just contacted the Greek guy by phone, to ask him if he has any Batteriser for sale.

Apparently, these are just samples, and shipments are expected to start on the new year.

He also told me it does indeed work as advertised.

It would be just great to be able to measure how much more energy they can get more from a battery with a Batteriser: Take a fresh set of batteries and discharge the batteries with constant power until the battery voltage drops to specific cut-off voltage, for example 1V. Now, attach the Batteriser to the battery and measure how much more energy you can squeeze from the battery until the output voltage of the Batteriser drops below that same cut-off voltage. You may also want to repeat the test with a constant current for the comparison purposes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 09:45:28 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 02:56:49 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 02:38:14 am

^This was the offer.  Top *and* bottom of the PCB.  If this product is in the wild, I have no idea why the underside of the PCB is such a secret. 

I'm sure there is no conspiracy going on here. I believe Wayne when he says the product "works" and boosts the voltage to 1.5V. There is no question they have made a product that does this.

There were definitely some working prototypes about 18 months ago. They're in all the batteriser videos, the Garmin GPS test, Probes the monkey, etc. Some PC magazines saw them in person.

The question is:
a) Has Bob shipped a handful of those old prototypes out to a few gullible people
or
b) Are there thousands of new ones being produced in China right now.

The fact that they say "Batterizer" on the sleeve makes it look like option (a) to me.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 09:47:25 am

Quote from: Kalvin on November 24, 2016, 09:42:32 am

It would be just great to be able to measure how much more energy they can get more from a battery with a Batteriser: Take a fresh set of batteries and discharge the batteries with constant power until the battery voltage drops to specific cut-off voltage, for example 1V. Now, attach the Batteriser to the battery and measure how much more energy you can squeeze from the battery until the output voltage of the Batteriser drops below that same cut-off voltage. You may also want to repeat the test with a constant current for the comparison purposes.

Yep, this will be one of the standard test I'll be doing when I get my hands on some.
And a parametric graph as well based on various constant current and constant wattages (close enough to how the majority of electronics products will behave)
Sadly though it would take far too long to do this for light loads. But even Batteroo have (now, not initially) freely admitted that it's not going to perform well on low current drain devices.

But remember, Batteroo and Frankie's big claim about were it will perform best is in real products that have "spikes" in the current draw causing dropping out. They are making out this is common and is the basis of their big claims.
Of course all us product design engineers know this is bunk in the vast majority of cases (hence why they had to use a digital camera in their video to prove it), but the proof will be that spreadsheet I've compiled and everyone doing systematic testing on real products.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 09:52:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 03:25:45 am

Although I would encourage Wayne to actually test these things properly. With a conversion efficiency graph for different loads, and controlled product testing.

No need.

His "two identical flashlights" test is enough - so long as he's honest about the results.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on November 24, 2016, 09:53:26 am

I'm a bit worried that so many people just seem to contact the backers that show pictures. I know everyone is dying to see the real results of the batterisers, but until there is an absolute proof otherwise the backers should be treated as people who have invested in the batteriser in good faith, and not as a part of Batteroo.
I am very curious after their honest opinion, and thank them for whatever they want to share.

I don't think that we as a community should stalk these people because:
a. It's not nice
b. It will surely scare off other's from posting anything
c. It's not nice

If the batteriser is coming, (and it surely looks that way), it will be just a matter of time until one or two will find it's way to the eevblog lab. Let's be patient until that time...

- just my humble opinion -

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 24, 2016, 09:55:24 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 09:47:25 am

Quote from: Kalvin on November 24, 2016, 09:42:32 am

It would be just great to be able to measure how much more energy they can get more from a battery with a Batteriser: Take a fresh set of batteries and discharge the batteries with constant power until the battery voltage drops to specific cut-off voltage, for example 1V. Now, attach the Batteriser to the battery and measure how much more energy you can squeeze from the battery until the output voltage of the Batteriser drops below that same cut-off voltage. You may also want to repeat the test with a constant current for the comparison purposes.

Yep, this will be one of the standard test I'll be doing when I get my hands on some.
And a parametric graph as well based on various constant current and constant wattages (close enough to how the majority of electronics products will behave)
Sadly though it would take far too long to do this for light loads. But even Batteroo have (now, not initially) freely admitted that it's not going to perform well on low current drain devices.

A simple led lamp would be a good candidate. It is very easy to measure how long it works without the Batteriser. Then attach the Batteriser and measure how much longer it will work. This is a simple, real-world test that can be done without any technical knowledge or special measurement instruments whatsoever. Only a clock is required. The guy in Greece might be able to do this kind of test so we could get the initial figures. I really do not care whether the led lamp has a dc/dc-converter inside or not at this point, just want to get some data.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 09:55:52 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 09:52:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 03:25:45 am

Although I would encourage Wayne to actually test these things properly. With a conversion efficiency graph for different loads, and controlled product testing.

No need.
His "two identical flashlights" test is enough - so long as he's honest about the results.

Wayne has said anyone is free to come over and do more extensive testing on them. If he was in Sydney I'd take him up on the offer. Although decent product testing will take many days work just for starters.
He has admitted he's not good with the complex characteristic testing of such things and graphing etc. But he will release all his basic product test results.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on November 24, 2016, 10:00:28 am

Quote from: quad on November 24, 2016, 09:41:56 am

If these are just a very limited batch of samples, they probably don't need the approval mark

Well, technically they do, though pragmatically they can probably get away without them if indeed they're only planning to ship a handful of samples. A cynic might (and in this case, does!) infer that lack of approval marks is further evidence that the product is not "shipping", but is instead merely "sampling" to a select handful of people.

What's baffling is that CE and FCC aren't even difficult, or expensive, or time consuming to obtain.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 24, 2016, 10:02:03 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 09:52:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 03:25:45 am

Although I would encourage Wayne to actually test these things properly. With a conversion efficiency graph for different loads, and controlled product testing.

No need.

His "two identical flashlights" test is enough - so long as he's honest about the results.

Actually it may be best to use only one flashlight as you can be sure that the conditions do not vary. Take a set of fresh batteries, drain the batteries until the flashlight stops working or the light becomes very dim. Then attach the Batteriser to the batteries and measure how much longer the flashlight will work.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jonovid on November 24, 2016, 10:03:55 am

why all the technical work just to joule thief an old battery. when you can have a all new product, like say a Li-ion battery inside a AA cell battery case
with its own buck converter & recharge port.
http://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/Lithium-ion-battery/p/sm/1134386506.htm#1134386506 (http://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/Lithium-ion-battery/p/sm/1134386506.htm#1134386506)

is there a prize for the longest forum thread ? or for the most revived AA battery from the dead?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 10:06:57 am

Quote from: Kalvin on November 24, 2016, 10:02:03 am

Actually it may be best to use only one flashlight as you can be sure that the conditions do not vary. Take a set of fresh batteries, drain the batteries until the flashlight stops working or the light becomes very dim. Then attach the Batteriser to the batteries and measure how much longer the flashlight will work.

Ideally that's the case, but I think some of my initial experiments will be done with two identical products if possible just to speedup the testing time of initial results, with single product confirmation to come later. It also looks good on the time-lapse video with two products side-by-side.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 10:27:15 am

Quote from: Kalvin on November 24, 2016, 10:02:03 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 09:52:19 am

His "two identical flashlights" test is enough - so long as he's honest about the results.

Actually it may be best to use only one flashlight as you can be sure that the conditions do not vary.

No point. The Batteriser flashlight will die first.* The results/conclusions of the test will be obvious to even the most technically challenged.

(*) Assuming it's a LED flashlight with built-in boost converter. If it isn't then Batteriser will be brighter** but die sooner and more suddenly.

(**) No this isn't a legitimate case for using Batteriser. Buying a $10 LED flashlight is a much better option.

Quote from: Kalvin on November 24, 2016, 10:02:03 am

as you can be sure that the conditions do not vary.

You can swap the two flashlights around if you don't believe that Batteriser always dies first.

Quote from: Kalvin on November 24, 2016, 10:02:03 am

Take a set of fresh batteries, drain the batteries until the flashlight stops working or the light becomes very dim. Then attach the Batteriser to the batteries and measure how much longer the flashlight will work.

I don't think that's how most people would use Batteriser. Most people will just put the thing onto the new batteries.

(who wants to carry the batterisers around in their pocket then fiddle around in the dark trying to fit them to a dead flashlight?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 24, 2016, 10:41:00 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 10:27:15 am

Quote from: Kalvin on November 24, 2016, 10:02:03 am

as you can be sure that the conditions do not vary.

You can swap the two flashlights around if you don't believe that Batteriser always dies first.

Quote from: Kalvin on November 24, 2016, 10:02:03 am

Take a set of fresh batteries, drain the batteries until the flashlight stops working or the light becomes very dim. Then attach the Batteriser to the batteries and measure how much longer the flashlight will work.

I don't think that's how most people would use Batteriser. Most people will just put the thing onto the new batteries.

(who wants to carry the batterisers around in their pocket then fiddle around in the dark trying to fit them to a dead flashlight?)

Yes, you are correct. My suggestion was just to make an initial test, to get rough figures. For example, if the flashlight will run for 8 hours with fresh batterires until the flashlight stops working, attaching the Batteriser to the dead batteries should make the flashlight running for more than 2 days. That is their claim.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on November 24, 2016, 10:51:09 am

Some of the things I am interested in include:

• What is the standby current (as the Batteriser is always on).
  
• If there are multiple Batterisers, do you end up with an audio frequency noise on the power to the device due to mixing of the switching noise.
• If you are powering an AM radio and the Batteriser is switching at perhaps 1.5MHz, how does the radio behave?
• What happens when one Batteriser shuts down - does it go open, or is there a forward biased diode junction from the flat battery?

If it goes open, what voltage can it withstand? Some old CB walkie talkies take 8 to 12 AA batteries, so the OFF Batteriser would have to be able to withstand up to 15V reverse voltage across it without failing.

If there is a forward biased diode from the battery to output or a normally reverse biased negative to output diode, and the current is 1A, will the diode overheat after that Batteriser shuts down? It could be using the latent substrate reverse diode junction of the switching IC to carry current when the battery goes flat. The signifigance of this is that if the contacts to the battery is dodgy, then when the battery disconnects, the switching IC gets reverse current from the other batteries. When the battery reconnects to the Batteriser, the switching IC may go to latch-up mode.

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on November 24, 2016, 10:54:46 am

Notice in the Aussie dude's pic, the packaging says Batteroo, whereas the Greek dude's says Batteriser. That makes very little sense to me.

Both sets of casings say Batteriser, however, which does make sense if you buy my theory of these being assembled from pre-production prototypes, which I think we can safely assume now based on the phone call from the Greek guy *and* Bob's insistence in the shipping email for the recipients to post photos.

I think it's pretty clear now that they're only shipping these to potential resellers and not general backers now.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 24, 2016, 11:15:10 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 09:40:23 am

There isn't a single engineer on the planet that even remotely doubts the Batteriser will "work" as a boost converter and give you 1.5V output from a "dead" or "used" battery.

Absolutely.  The question is: For how long?

We anxiously await test results for some answers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jonovid on November 24, 2016, 11:17:10 am

Quote

Some of the things I am interested in include:

What is the standby current (as the Batteriser is always on).
If there are multiple Batterisers, do you end up with an audio frequency noise on the power to the device due to mixing of the switching noise.
If you are powering an AM radio and the Batteriser is switching at perhaps 1.5MHz, how does the radio behave?
What happens when one Batteriser shuts down - does it go open, or is there a forward biased diode junction from the flat battery?

personally I would never buy this product for the reasons listed.
but to give Credit where credit is due, the technical work in fitting electronics over a battery like a snake skin,
can be adapted for other uses or products.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 11:30:15 am

Quote from: timb on November 24, 2016, 10:54:46 am

Notice in the Aussie dude's pic, the packaging says Batteroo, whereas the Greek dude's says Batteriser. That makes very little sense to me.

Bob explained this in an update. They have permission from their Lawyers/Energizer to ship some existign units with the Batteriser name on it. Some people will get Batteriser, some will get Batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on November 24, 2016, 12:23:02 pm

Hi,

There have been a number of tests suggested for the Batteroo to see how it lives up to the claims made by Bob. These test involve time, waiting for the cells to discharge. The outcome of these tests can be predicted with a simulation like this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=273000;image)

This is a macro model of a generic boost converter. Three parameters are required to fit the model to the Batteroo.

The parameters are:

Iq - This is the quiescent current for the boost converter, measured with the output in regulation, but no load. In the model the Iq load is placed on the output side of the boost converter. This is because I believe the 'stuff' inside the chip will be powered from the output side.

The Iq parameter shapes the efficiency plot at light loads.

Rl - This parameter represents losses that are proportional to input current squared. It represents losses in the inductor and switch inside the boost converter.
The Rl parameter shapes the efficiency curve at the higher output currents.

Eff - This is the mid current efficiency. This determines the efficiency at medium currents.

Here is the efficiency plot, using typical parameters:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=273002;image)

When these parameters have been determined empirically, the model can be fitted to the measurements. Once the model has been tuned in the performance of the Batteroo with various loads can be predicted without having to wait for the batteries to discharge.

I have attached the LTspice model.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 12:51:58 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on November 24, 2016, 12:23:02 pm

When these parameters have been determined empirically, the model can be fitted to the measurements. Once the model has been tuned in the performance of the Batteroo with various loads can be predicted without having to wait for the batteries to discharge.

Yep, but it's like the audiophool snake oil claim "you have the listen to it". With the Batteriser true believers it's "you have to try it in the product".

But as I explained above, there is some merit to this as Batteroo's big claim is that of battery ESR and pulse currents causing products to stop working prematurely. You can't model this on the battery and a static load alone, you have to actually test individual products.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 01:20:59 pm

Quote from: timb on November 24, 2016, 10:54:46 am

Notice in the Aussie dude's pic, the packaging says Batteroo, whereas the Greek dude's says Batteriser. That makes very little sense to me.

Well spotted!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=273008;image)

Quote from: timb on November 24, 2016, 10:54:46 am

Both sets of casings say Batteriser, however, which does make sense if you buy my theory of these being assembled from pre-production prototypes

That's now my theory too (see post on previous page).

These aren't production, they're cobbled together from the prototypes Bob was showing last year. There can only be a few dozen units total.


(And I'm still not convinced the Greek guy has any PCBs in his. Greek guy could be a complete lie, Aussie Guy is simply being duped)

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on November 24, 2016, 01:37:05 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 11:30:15 am

Quote from: timb on November 24, 2016, 10:54:46 am

Notice in the Aussie dude's pic, the packaging says Batteroo, whereas the Greek dude's says Batteriser. That makes very little sense to me.

Bob explained this in an update. They have permission from their Lawyers/Energizer to ship some existign units with the Batteriser name on it. Some people will get Batteriser, some will get Batteroo.

Yes, I can understand that for the shells of the units themselves, since they're stamped with a die they would have already paid for. It doesn't make any sense for the packaging, since they wouldn't have had much of that on hand with the Batteriser name on it.

There's zero evidence they had any Batterisers in production when the trademark issue was settled, so I highly doubt there are any "exsisting" units to send.

Now, one possibility is they may have had a bunch (hundreds? thousands?) of shells stamped out as early as last year, expecting everything to go smoothly with the electronics. Then they ran into an issue, current delivery most likely, that they couldn't easily solve.

So, seeing "Batteriser" on the units themselves isn't what I'm questioning here. It's the fact it's printed on the cardboard packages themselves.

Nobody has the cardboard packaging made six months to a year before the actual product goes into production. You might have a couple of them produced as tests, but that's it. In reality, you'd have them start rolling off the presses anywhere from a month before production to the actual time of packaging (print on demand).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 01:59:01 pm

The whole thing still smells fishy to me.

Bob confidently predicts there'll be a few photos in the next few days but was unable to provide any himself. Now we have Bobs cronies saying they got theirs and two (count them) people posting pics, one of whom admits that he's visited Batteroo personally.

Google can't find anybody else with Batterisers, there's nothing outside of Indiegogo comments. No bloggers??

The package we've seen appears to be mailed by hand using a very expensive shipper (USPS) despite Bob blaming a "Logistics Company" for the latest delays.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jonovid on November 24, 2016, 02:00:16 pm

Quote

Yep, but it's like the audiophool snake oil claim "you have the listen to it". With the Batteriser true believers it's "you have to try it in the product".

B + I Call on all batteries who are Dead, and Low I will give you resurrection in the name of Batteriser  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 02:06:40 pm

I'm calling bullshit on this.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=273011;image)

Either:
a) The batteries weren't nearly dead (in which case there wouldn't be a 'noticeable increase in brightness')
or
b) They didn't go for another hour.


...and
(c) What happened after an hour? You stopped the test because it was finished??   :-//
(d) Who on earth writes "two(2)", apart from a lawyer?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveshah on November 24, 2016, 02:13:24 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 02:06:40 pm

Either:
a) The batteries weren't nearly dead (in which case there wouldn't be a 'noticeable increase in brightness')
or
b) They didn't go for another hour.


...and
(c) What happened after an hour? You stopped the test because it was finished??   :-//

It could just be a really crap flashlight (say 2 AAs driving a white led with a Vf around 3V)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 02:23:31 pm

Quote from: daveshah on November 24, 2016, 02:13:24 pm

It could just be a really crap flashlight (say 2 AAs driving a white led with a Vf around 3V)

Does that exist? I've never seen one (2xAA).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Quarlo Klobrigney on November 24, 2016, 02:27:52 pm

The words are correct. This place is full of wankers trying to sully the good name of Mr. Roofvarnish.
It's apparently clear to many learned individuals that the principle is a sound one.
Using an Over-Unity proprietary IC, it is possible to tap in Zero-Point energy to boost the battery's already existing remaining power. Shame on you all, including myself for disbelieving....

PS I just realized that the IoT future of these devices is enormous!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on November 24, 2016, 03:01:17 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 09:55:52 am

Wayne has said anyone is free to come over and do more extensive testing on them. If he was in Sydney I'd take him up on the offer. Although decent product testing will take many days work just for starters.
He has admitted he's not good with the complex characteristic testing of such things and graphing etc. But he will release all his basic product test results.

Shouldn't be difficult to do some basic tests. Like use fresh batteries in a flashlight without Batteriser, stop the time until it gets dark, then the same test with Batteriser with fresh batteries. Bonus: use the dead batteries from the first test with Batteriser and stop the time again until it gets dark again. The results should be pretty unambiguous.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 03:28:22 pm

I'm fairly certain that what has been sent to these initial recipients are not production units, but the pre-production samples that we've been seeing all along. But, finally, there are units in the wild to test claims against. I really wish Wayne would have a change of heart and loan one to Dave.

The bounty program is now closed. I might revisit this in order to convince someone to send a unit for testing. If you're out there and have a Batteriser, please contact me.

My eevblog username at gmail.com.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 03:52:17 pm

Quote

Why the fuck would I engage with a complete tosser like you?
I've seen all the shit on your blog.

He's a regular reader of a blog by a complete tosser? How does that work?

If he knows who Dave is then maybe it's because he's been 'warned' by somebody....  :scared:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 04:29:28 pm

Wayne is doing the first independent testing anyone has ever seen of a batteriser. Let's give him a break. Initial photos of results are on his facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/photos/pcb.1266516956748005/1266507556748945/?type=3&theater (https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/photos/pcb.1266516956748005/1266507556748945/?type=3&theater)

Thus far it looks like the boost converter stops regulating somewhere just above 1.1V.  The boost converter otherwise does indeed boost the voltage of the battery, as expected, and provides a brighter light over a longer period of time on a economical flashlight. For many users, this may be considered a benefit And justify the purchase of the batteriser sleeves. 

Determination of the energy extraction claims remains to be determined and I'm not sure Wayne is set up to do that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 04:36:54 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 04:29:28 pm

Wayne is doing the first independent testing anyone has ever seen of a batteriser.

Let's give him a break.

OK.

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 04:29:28 pm

Thus far it looks like the boost converter stops regulating somewhere just above 1.1V.

Not good. There's still about 5-10% left at 1.1V

And why did the test stop before they died/went black?

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 04:29:28 pm

The boost converter otherwise does indeed boost the voltage of the battery, as expected, and provides a brighter light over a longer period of time on a economical flashlight.

It changes the brightness curve, no surprises there.

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 04:29:28 pm

For many users, this may be considered a benefit And justify the purchase of the batteriser sleeves. 

OTOH: LED flashlights with built-in boosters can be bought for the price of a set of Batterisers.

(I suspect his flashlights have built-in boosters...could we ask him the brand/model of those?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on November 24, 2016, 04:48:55 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 04:36:54 pm

Not good. There's still about 5-10% left at 1.1V

And his 'results' page showed that Batteriser did indeed die first.

The results are a bit difficult to interpret, because of the random swap during the test, but right, looks like it is as expected, the battery which was used longer with the Batteriser dies first.. If they would marketing it as "full power for half the time" it would make sense for old torches with no integrated booster, and if you want this behavior. They could even name it "battery booster" or "batterooster" (this would allow some nice animal logo) :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on November 24, 2016, 05:09:55 pm

Quote from: samgab on November 24, 2016, 09:13:54 am

That PCB edge looks like a rat's been having a good chew on it though:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48950.0;attach=272937;image)
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15178255_1266115140121520_4218271742108812938_n.jpg?oh=5fbb7c1da392c5289a819d151e99f04d&oe=58BE73F6)

It's just multiple adjacent drill holes that are used to allow a PCB to be broken out of the manufacturing panel. The industry standard slang for this is "mouse bites" so you weren't a million miles off.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on November 24, 2016, 05:14:43 pm

The sleeves from units sent to Revive:
(http://i.imgur.com/wJHxMQN.png)

The sleeves from UL testing in 2015
(http://i.imgur.com/p6bjgXn.png)

The sleeves from units that were finalized, as posted on igg
(http://i.imgur.com/JYU5A8D.png)

The sleeves from units in production, as posted on igg
(http://i.imgur.com/26pz9jq.png)



Note this is just on the sleeves, the PCB on Revives unit  does not match UL unit and (imo) the production photo

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 06:03:50 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on November 24, 2016, 05:14:43 pm

Note this is just on the sleeves, the PCB on Revives unit  does not match UL unit and (imo) the production photo

Smoke and mirrors? Confirmed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 24, 2016, 06:04:02 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on November 24, 2016, 05:14:43 pm

Note this is just on the sleeves, the PCB on Revives unit  does not match UL unit and (imo) the production photo

Good catch   4 vs 5   :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 24, 2016, 07:05:00 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 03:28:22 pm

I'm fairly certain that what has been sent to these initial recipients are not production units, but the pre-production samples that we've been seeing all along. But, finally, there are units in the wild to test claims against.

Ah, but you see, when these units fail to perform as claimed, Bob can simply tell us all that they weren't the final production version, and that they don't contain the custom IC yet...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 24, 2016, 07:12:58 pm

Eeerr... he swapped which battery the sleeve was on half way through the test, and stopped the test before either torch went off?
So, we can conclude nothing so far...

EDIT: To quote his original post.

Quote

BATTEROO - Batteriser Test 1.

Bear with me here people - this is not a technical scientific evaluation - just me doing some logical make it up yourself testing in my shed.
The picture is a bit rudimentary but it does the job.

NOTE: Batteroo specifically does not recommend using the Batteroo sleeve on LED torches due to the fact that some LED drivers utilise constant current circuitry for the LED light - but I decided to go ahead and check it out anyway.

I found it very interesting - see what you reckon? I did a 2nd test which I'll post if I get time tonight or tomorrow.

OK, so I just found out that facebook won't let you post a file? or I can't work it out ? so I'll just take a screen pic and do it anyway.
If anybody wants a copy of the spreadsheet just let me know and I'll send it to you.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=273060;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 07:30:16 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on November 24, 2016, 07:12:58 pm

Eeerr... he swapped which battery the sleeve was on half way through the test, and stopped the test before either torch went off?

 :palm:

I just had flashbacks to Probes the monkey...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 07:38:27 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on November 24, 2016, 07:31:57 pm

If I were Dr. Roofatopabar and had a solid product, the very first person I'd be sending samples to would be Dave. What better way to turn the internet's opinion other than letting your adversary test it and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Batterizer indeed works. Imagine what that would do to potential investors on Batteroo!

And if you were Dr. Roofatopabar and didn't have a solid product, the very first person you'd be sending samples to would be that Australian ...* who was in the office a few months ago.

(*) Insert appropriate adjective for somebody who'd swap the batteries around in the middle of a test.

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on November 24, 2016, 07:31:57 pm

a) Dr. Bob and Wayne have an agreement

This is starting to look very likely.

You couldn't make this stuff up if you tried. I can't wait to see his test number 2, as promised "later today".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on November 24, 2016, 07:49:52 pm

Don't be too hard on Wayne, he didn't ask to be put under the spotlight and would, no doubt, prefer not to be drawn into the Batteroo circus. The fact that he has been is entirely Bob's fault for not publishing specifications and test data for the "game changing" product that he made such extravagant claims for. And we can't really criticise him for not releasing his Batteroos for testing when he is hoping to become a distributor and obviously doesn't want to do anything that might jeopardise this possibility.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 24, 2016, 07:53:25 pm

As mentioned, I don't think we should criticise his test procedure just yet. I think he just needs some guidance on how to go about it  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on November 24, 2016, 07:57:02 pm

I know it's not supposed to be any kind of proper scientific test or anything, but ...swapping the sleeves mid test, just because "I felt like it and I have nothing to prove and I can do whatever I want in my garage, it's just a bit of fun I'm doing for myself and I'm just releasing the info for S&G's"... Why? Just why would you do that?  :palm: :palm: :palm:

You don't have to be a scientist or even a person of average intelligence to realise that that completely makes worthless and pointless anything you're doing with them if you swap your test conditions mid test. I just cannot comprehend the motivation behind doing that. Unless you have hopes of "a huge potential to make money if they do work"... Hmm, where have I read that before? Oh yeah, in his letter to Dave.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1077240/#msg1077240 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1077240/#msg1077240)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 08:00:09 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on November 24, 2016, 07:53:25 pm

As mentioned, I don't think we should criticise his test procedure just yet. I think he just needs some guidance on how to go about it  :-+

I'm dubious. The whole point of Batteriser is to extend life. Why not just switch two flashlights on and see how long they last?  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 08:18:05 pm

By a complete coincidence, the batteries that had Batterisers on them dropped from 1.23 to 0.89V in just 7 minutes after the sleeves were swapped.

ie. He decided to swap the sleeves right at the exact moment when the Batterized battery's voltage was falling off the cliff.

What are the odds of that??  :bullshit:

And ... he decided to "stop the test and try something different" about 20 seconds before that flashlight would have gone completely black (if it was at 0.89V shortly after removing the load then it's only got 0.001% of power remaining).  :bullshit: :bullshit:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=273076;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 08:21:59 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 08:00:09 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on November 24, 2016, 07:53:25 pm

As mentioned, I don't think we should criticise his test procedure just yet. I think he just needs some guidance on how to go about it  :-+

I'm dubious. The whole point of Batteriser is to extend life. Why not just switch two flashlights on and see how long they last?  :-//

Because this isn't really a good test either.  It doesn't tell us about the energy extracted from the battery.  We need to convince Wayne to send a sleeve to someone with a setup that can log voltage and current at both the battery and batteriser terminals.

And, I'll ask again for everyone to lay off Wayne.  Wayne is a victim, not a bad actor.  He depended on Bros. Roohparvar to correctly represent their product and what's actually been sent to him, which clearly is not a production unit.

We need Wayne's help.  Let's be helpful to him.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 08:33:53 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 08:21:59 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 08:00:09 pm

I'm dubious. The whole point of Batteriser is to extend life. Why not just switch two flashlights on and see how long they last?  :-//

Because this isn't really a good test either.

No, but it's simple, it's logical, and if the flashlights have internal boosters then it's not a terrible test.

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 08:21:59 pm

And, I'll ask again for everyone to lay off Wayne.  Wayne is a victim, not a bad actor.  He depended on Bros. Roohparvar to correctly represent their product and what's actually been sent to him, which clearly is not a production unit.

I agree that Bob is probably using him, just like the electronics guy in the monkey videos.

OTOH: Somebody who's nick is "revivebatteries" and who runs a business based around batteries ought to know a dead AA battery when he sees one.

If he measured 0.89V on a battery without remarking "It's dead, Jim!" then...  :-//

Edit: He also calls respected people "complete tossers" with abandon. This reduces the sympathy for him if he's fallen for Bob's lies and is now trying to dig himself out of a hole by trying to show they work as advertised (so he can sell them to other people).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 08:46:32 pm

Wayne spoke with Batteroo about the shipping issues:

Quote

I spoke to one of the blokes at Batteroo this arvo to clarify some issues people are complaining about on your forum. It's actually quite easy to just speak to them and ask the questions (I'm generally quite good at picking if I'm being bullshitted to so I ask the right questions)
The stock for the indiegogo orders has been shipped from China to their US office and then manually posted to the individual backers. I got in early so I was in the first wave of shipments. I think they were having issues and I know there was no tracking number with my order (I think that's fixed now?) That explains the manual customs dec.
There are about $400,000 of orders and they reckon they are about 30% shipped. They are trying to get all of the indiegogo orders finished in 2 weeks time. (but I know they have promised deadlines before so believe it or not?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 08:51:28 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 08:46:32 pm

Wayne spoke with Batteroo about the shipping issues:

Quote

I spoke to one of the blokes at Batteroo this arvo to clarify some issues people are complaining about on your forum. It's actually quite easy to just speak to them and ask the questions (I'm generally quite good at picking if I'm being bullshitted to so I ask the right questions)
The stock for the indiegogo orders has been shipped from China to their US office and then manually posted to the individual backers. I got in early so I was in the first wave of shipments. I think they were having issues and I know there was no tracking number with my order (I think that's fixed now?) That explains the manual customs dec.
There are about $400,000 of orders and they reckon they are about 30% shipped. They are trying to get all of the indiegogo orders finished in 2 weeks time. (but I know they have promised deadlines before so believe it or not?)

And yet... smiling Bob can't post a single photo of all those crates of Batterisers stacked up in his office.

It's hard to know what to think. Would Bob lie that blatently?

Question: If the above statement is true (ie. they're being shipped from the USA) then why didn't people in the USA receive them before Greece/Australia.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 08:54:06 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on November 24, 2016, 07:31:57 pm

If I were Dr. Roofatopabar and had a solid product, the very first person I'd be sending samples to would be Dave. What better way to turn the internet's opinion other than letting your adversary test it and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Batterizer indeed works. Imagine what that would do to potential investors on Batteroo!

Yes, and Bob knows this very well. The fact that he has never spoken to me personally, or offered samples, speaks volumes.
He knows I"m approachable and will test them properly. We clearly doesn't want them tested properly.
He's not a dumb guy, this is the CEO of big companies, a university professor. he knows precisely what he is doing and doesn't want anyone with any technical ability near a Batteriser, let alone one with an audience.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 24, 2016, 08:59:47 pm

So they're spending $23 to send a $20 item to people?  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 09:01:56 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on November 24, 2016, 08:59:47 pm

So they're spending $23 to send a $20 item to people?  :palm:

That was to Austria. Shipping inside the USA will be cheaper (and it's probably the majority of backers).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on November 24, 2016, 09:06:23 pm

So Batteroo does no take advantage of the Chinese state sponsered shipping, ships from the US at high costs and ships to IGG backers while not having all the addresses. This is exactly what I would do to ruin a business. >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 24, 2016, 09:07:45 pm

If they're a 3Rd of the way through shipping, even if only half of them are in the USA, they'd all have them by now, that's 1000 people in the USA with batteriser in their hands...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 09:09:10 pm

Quote from: madires on November 24, 2016, 09:06:23 pm

So Batteroo does no take advantage of the Chinese state sponsered shipping, ships from the US at high costs and ships to IGG backers while not having all the addresses. This is exactly what I would do to ruin a business. >:D

Judging by the comments they announced shipping 28+ days ago.

28 days have passed and nobody in the USA has confirmed receipt or posted any photos?  :popcorn:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=273082;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 09:15:59 pm

But our friend was there, supporting Bob in his time of need when everybody else was doubting:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=273088;image)

Maybe that's why he got the first box...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 09:22:49 pm

The Batteriser saga is better than any movie I've seen in the last few years.  :-DD

It's got comedy, drama, suspense, natural disasters...

All that's missing is pirates, and I haven't given up on those yet.

If it was a book it would be a real "page turner".

(let's hope it doesn't have a cliffhanger ending)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 24, 2016, 09:56:12 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 09:15:59 pm

But our friend was there, supporting Bob in his time of need when everybody else was doubting:
Maybe that's why he got the first box...

This makes sense.  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 10:05:31 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on November 24, 2016, 09:07:45 pm

If they're a 3Rd of the way through shipping, even if only half of them are in the USA, they'd all have them by now, that's 1000 people in the USA with batteriser in their hands...

Yep, doesn't make sense. I think someone at Batteroo was spinning Wayne a yarn.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 10:11:38 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 08:51:28 pm

Question: If the above statement is true (ie. they're being shipped from the USA)

That part is confirmed true, we have the photo of Wayne's box with the US customs from and USPS sticker. It was shipped from over the counter at a US post office.

Quote

then why didn't people in the USA receive them before Greece/Australia.

Clearly that part is BS, and they are only shipping to select people because *insert reason here*

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 24, 2016, 10:12:35 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 08:21:59 pm

We need Wayne's help.  Let's be helpful to him.

Some talk like he is an engineer.  His business is selling rebuilt car batteries.  I used to buy them and it is not like walking into Qualcomm.  They were very nasty places with vats of hot acid and other nasty things.  So I am a little impressed what he did, even if a failure.

How does it work to be a distributor?  Does he pay a large sum up front or make a large purchase?  He needs to be careful, but I think any used car battery person that can go to another country for a concert, probably knows what he is doing.

If I were him I would send them to Dave, otherwise he may lose a lot of money if he tries to sell a defective product.

Has anyone thought of starting a new topic with this in the title "Is there anyone from Darwin here?".  I imagine not everyone is reading this topic.  Maybe someone from Darwin would help.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 24, 2016, 10:15:09 pm

It would be nice to see a properly controlled environment and in particular a decent lux meter in use if random flashlights were to become the backyard standard reference or for these test comparisons otherwise dim, dimmer or dimmer than I recall might be interpreted as a bit vague in my view.

Also a Brymen BM235 would have been a nice addition to Wayne's submitted tests and images, could you imagine the look on Bob's face with every tested and uploaded Batteriser image showing the EEVblog logo in the background, the thought of this alone almost has me rolling on the floor in fits of laughter, I'd probably do a rib or something.

 ;) :)   

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on November 24, 2016, 10:23:12 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on November 24, 2016, 09:47:44 pm

LabSpokane and Blocco, I respectfully disagree with you.

Wayne chose to put himself in this position, so he is not a helpless victim of anything, he's not a puppet being manipulated by Bob Roofatopabar either. He's an adult, a grown man and he has made choices. Whatever they are, he's responsible for them, and must face their consequences, for better or for worse.

How he's been playing, for the past 2-3 days, with the cards that have been dealt to him is his choice. He is the one that is not willing to part with a single unit to any competent member of EEVBlog in Australia that can do proper tests. I know for a fact that many of the EEVBlog members from Australia are competent and well equipped to do so, and if I were Wayne, I would be proud to have one of you help me with adequate test procedures.

He has used harsh words towards us and has been disrespectful in general with our community. That has also been his choice: choice of words and choice of actions. lease let's not consider him an infant who's acting up, or a kid who is helpless. He is neither. He is just a grown man that has chosen sides while disregarding all the technical aspects involved and the law of physics!

He bought a product from someone. That doesn't give him any obligations to you or anybody else here. He didn't approach anybody here, he was approached. Again, that doesn't give him any obligations to you or anybody else here. So he chose some harsh words, well that is about all he has any obligations over and frankly that is hardly anything anybody with an ego more robust than Donald Trump's is going to get upset about. To imply that we have any kind of right to demand a product from him and that he ought to be "willing to part with" it borders on the ridiculous.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on November 24, 2016, 10:28:23 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on November 24, 2016, 09:47:44 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 08:21:59 pm

And, I'll ask again for everyone to lay off Wayne.  Wayne is a victim, not a bad actor.  He depended on Bros. Roohparvar to correctly represent their product and what's actually been sent to him, which clearly is not a production unit.

We need Wayne's help.  Let's be helpful to him.

Quote from: Blocco on November 24, 2016, 07:49:52 pm

Don't be too hard on Wayne, he didn't ask to be put under the spotlight and would, no doubt, prefer not to be drawn into the Batteroo circus. The fact that he has been is entirely Bob's fault for not publishing specifications and test data for the "game changing" product that he made such extravagant claims for. And we can't really criticise him for not releasing his Batteroos for testing when he is hoping to become a distributor and obviously doesn't want to do anything that might jeopardise this possibility.

LabSpokane and Blocco, I respectfully disagree with you.

Wayne chose to put himself in this position, so he is not a helpless victim of anything, he's not a puppet being manipulated by Bob Roofatopabar either. He's an adult, a grown man and he has made choices. Whatever they are, he's responsible for them, and must face their consequences, for better or for worse.

How he's been playing, for the past 2-3 days, with the cards that have been dealt to him is his choice. He is the one that is not willing to part with a single unit to any competent member of EEVBlog in Australia that can do proper tests. I know for a fact that many of the EEVBlog members from Australia are competent and well equipped to do so, and if I were Wayne, I would be proud to have one of you help me with adequate test procedures.

He has used harsh words towards us and has been disrespectful in general with our community. That has also been his choice: choice of words and choice of actions. lease let's not consider him an infant who's acting up, or a kid who is helpless. He is neither. He is just a grown man that has chosen sides while disregarding all the technical aspects involved and the law of physics!

All he did was buy some Batteroos from dodgy Bob Rhubarb, you make him sound like a criminal. He isn't obliged to co-operate with or show respect to anyone on this forum or anywhere else; why do you suggest that he is? 

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of him supplying a Batteroo to Dave for testing, but it is entirely his choice and far more likely to happen if forum members show some restraint and hold back with the criticism. Let's get some perspective here, we're only talking about an over-hyped bit of electronic tat that was heading for obsolescence before it was even conceived.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 10:33:39 pm

Quote from: ChunkyPastaSauce on November 24, 2016, 05:14:43 pm

The sleeves from units sent to Revive:
(http://i.imgur.com/wJHxMQN.png)

The sleeves from UL testing in 2015
(http://i.imgur.com/p6bjgXn.png)

The sleeves from units that were finalized, as posted on igg
(http://i.imgur.com/JYU5A8D.png)

The sleeves from units in production, as posted on igg
(http://i.imgur.com/26pz9jq.png)

Note this is just on the sleeves, the PCB on Revives unit  does not match UL unit and (imo) the production photo

Nicely spotted!  :clap:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 10:40:34 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/S2UU016.png)

Right here something is very very wrong.
There is absolutely no way that the battery with the Batteriser after 2 hours can be 1.47V whilst the control battery is 1.18V (both open circuit voltages, but that's beside the point)
The Batteriser battery must be drawing more power than the reference battery (the load + the efficiency loss), so it should be roughly the same voltage or lower than the reference, not massively greater and close to fresh voltage we see here. This is guaranteed by basic laws of battery chemistry.  Something was not done right, like the Batteriser battery was left to recover it's terminal voltage longer or something.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: twice11 on November 24, 2016, 10:50:36 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 10:40:34 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/S2UU016.png)

Right here something is very very wrong.
There is absolutely no way that the battery with the Batteriser after 2 hours can be 1.47V whilst the control battery is 1.18V (both open circuit voltages, but that's beside the point)

I am quite confident that the voltage of the batteroo'ed battery is measured at the output of the batteroo sleve. So it's expected to be around 1.5V.

Edit: Change batterizer to batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on November 24, 2016, 10:52:40 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 10:40:34 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/S2UU016.png)

Right here something is very very wrong.
There is absolutely no way that the battery with the Batteriser after 2 hours can be 1.47V whilst the control battery is 1.18V (both open circuit voltages, but that's beside the point)

Yes...  Of course there is something wrong! 

He is measuring the output voltage of the sleeve, not the battery terminal voltage.

Unfortunately he doesn't understand the basics about what he should be trying to test.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 24, 2016, 10:58:15 pm

Quote from: wilfred on November 24, 2016, 10:49:34 pm

Quote from: Blocco on November 24, 2016, 10:28:23 pm

<snipped>
Let's get some perspective here, we're only talking about an over-hyped bit of electronic tat that was heading for obsolescence before it was even conceived.

Good point. Well made.

And for some additional perspective, Wayne actually went to the trouble and expense of visiting Batteroo HQ and talking to Bob.  None of us here have done that.  I'm 2 hours away by air.  Wayne is on the opposite side of the planet.  Wayne has made an effort that none of the rest of us have, so give the guy credit for getting out from behind his computer venturing into the world.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on November 24, 2016, 11:21:04 pm

Couldn't the 4 or 5 humps of the batterro be the difference between the model for AA and AAA?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: johndoe123 on November 24, 2016, 11:56:52 pm

Wouldn't it be good enough for a first simple test w/o any expensive lab equipment to simply attach a power resistor (e.g 4.7 Ohm, 1 Watt or so) in series with a current meter and write down the current every 10 minutes?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 25, 2016, 12:13:44 am

Quote from: firewalker on November 24, 2016, 11:21:04 pm

Couldn't the 4 or 5 humps of the batterro be the difference between the model for AA and AAA?

Alexander.

Noone has ever seen the aaa version :p

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: sleemanj on November 25, 2016, 12:21:20 am

Would our Darwinian friend be amenable to being sent a test device?

It wouldn't take more than an hour or two to knock together a couple of AA holders, a couple of power resistors, and an arduino to log all the data to an sd card or something, a shim on a wire should be able to fit between the cell positive terminal and the batteroo sleeve to get that reading.  Don't have to be fancy.

(http://i.imgur.com/nX595rc.jpg)


(It would be probably better to be able to put in a constant current/power loads to better simulate real world application, but this is quick and dirty.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: IanB on November 25, 2016, 01:38:21 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 10:40:34 pm

There is absolutely no way that the battery with the Batteriser after 2 hours can be 1.47V whilst the control battery is 1.18V (both open circuit voltages, but that's beside the point)

That has to be the voltage with the Batteroo sleeve, measured on the outside of the sleeve...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on November 25, 2016, 01:48:51 am

Apparently, revive's voltages were open circuit voltages and, for the sleeve-on test, they were measured at the sleeve output.

At 2 hours and 7 minutes, the sleeve open circuit output was 1.32V. This means the bettery under the sleeve was practically dead since the sleeve could no longer regulate properly under open circuit condition.

Right before this measurement point, one would expect the flashlight showed sudden dim to no light, though revive did not mention it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 25, 2016, 02:33:33 am

I suspect the torch with the Batteriser turned off, and that's the reason he swapped the sleeve to the other cell
As mentioned, 0.9 volts on an unloaded cell is dead flat. With a load, no boost regulator is going to work with that input voltage.

But remember, batteriser told him it might not work with led torches, hence him looking for another test.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 25, 2016, 02:42:00 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on November 25, 2016, 02:33:33 am

But remember, batteriser told him it might not work with led torches, hence him looking for another test.

The search is on to find something that does work with the batteriser.  Monkeys?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 25, 2016, 03:31:53 am

Can anyone follow this?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 25, 2016, 03:32:47 am

Wayne posted underside

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=273133;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on November 25, 2016, 03:35:07 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on November 25, 2016, 02:33:33 am

I suspect the torch with the Batteriser turned off, and that's the reason he swapped the sleeve to the other cell

Right. Furthermore, revive's wording "duller" is subjective here. "A bit" further showed his own doubt.

Despite the swap, I think the data showed the two flashlights lasted about the same duration, though the one started without the sleeve lasted a bit longer. My conclusion: the flashlights have their own converter already.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 25, 2016, 03:35:25 am

Test 2 is up: https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/ (https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=273137;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=273139;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 25, 2016, 03:54:55 am

I think there's a much more simple test that Wayne could do to see how these things perform in the real world.

Pick up a couple of battery powered fans (~$2 ea at a dollar store)

Put them both on your desk at the start of the morning. Have one with Batteroo sleeve, one without.

Make a note of the time. Power them up.

Note the time when first one stops spinning. (and note if it was Batteroo sleeve or not)

Note the time when the second one stops spinning.

Share the results. 

Can't get more 'real world' than this? ?

Then for extra test, put the dead batteries from first test - the ones without Batteroo sleeves - into Batteroo sleeves and put in fan and see how long the fan spins for.

I think I'm just recalling the test protocol Dave has outlined, but it's simple and effective. Why not do this??

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 25, 2016, 04:13:13 am

Quote from: wilfred on November 25, 2016, 04:05:04 am

Toys would be a good choice for this product.

And if they work there might be a market after all.  Wayne may laugh at us next year as he travels the world in his Lear jet selling these.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2016, 04:18:57 am

Quote from: wilfred on November 24, 2016, 10:02:15 pm

Quote from: ez24 on November 24, 2016, 09:56:12 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 24, 2016, 09:15:59 pm

But our friend was there, supporting Bob in his time of need when everybody else was doubting:
Maybe that's why he got the first box...

This makes sense.  :-+

Better to keep the spotlight squarely on Bob, Batterroo and their claims. This is a tangential issue.

Not at all.

Bob claims they've been shipping from the USA for 28+ days and are "30% of the way through the list". What's the reason nobody in the USA has received any yet? One Austrian guy received some but nobody in the USA did?  :bullshit:

PS: You'd think he'd get a nice new 'production' set for being nice to Bob, not those old prototypes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 6581 on November 25, 2016, 04:33:24 am

Quote from: wilfred on November 25, 2016, 04:05:04 am

Quote from: ez24 on November 25, 2016, 02:42:00 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on November 25, 2016, 02:33:33 am

But remember, batteriser told him it might not work with led torches, hence him looking for another test.

The search is on to find something that does work with the batteriser.  Monkeys?

Toys would be a good choice for this product. They rarely have their own battery management circuitry. Partially used batteries that drop the performance of the toy below some threshold would have energy remaining when discarded. As would an old bulb torch when the light becomes too dim.

Are you suggesting a toy monkey, perhaps? :D

EDIT: Sorry for the double post. (I blame Tapatalk.) It makes sense to (me to) have test data both in a device without a built-in step-up converter (best case for batteroo?) and with built-in step-up converter (I think this may be the most common device type these batteries end up in - just because they're so common.)

Let me thank Wayne here for sharing his test data! Very, very interesting. Thank you.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2016, 04:46:15 am

Quote from: quad on November 25, 2016, 03:54:55 am

I think there's a much more simple test that Wayne could do to see how these things perform in the real world.

Pick up a couple of battery powered fans (~$2 ea at a dollar store)

Put them both on your desk at the start of the morning. Have one with Batteroo sleeve, one without.

Make a note of the time. Power them up.

Note the time when first one stops spinning.

Nah, they could be spinning at different speeds.

I think this is also happening in the flashlight test: He says the unbatterised torch was 'hotter'. It could be that the LED is running much brighter without Batteriser but not in a way that the human eye can easily distinguish. You'd notice it more if you went outside at night and shone it around.

This implies the Batteriser can't supply enough current for full flashlight power. The unbatterised flashlight lasts approx 2 hours before dimming which implies it draws about 750mA.

If the flashlight has different power settings then the best test would be to run them side-by-side at lower power.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 04:48:05 am

Quote from: IanB on November 25, 2016, 01:38:21 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 10:40:34 pm

There is absolutely no way that the battery with the Batteriser after 2 hours can be 1.47V whilst the control battery is 1.18V (both open circuit voltages, but that's beside the point)

That has to be the voltage with the Batteroo sleeve, measured on the outside of the sleeve...

Yep, must be, in which case it's meaningless.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 04:51:02 am

Quote from: quad on November 25, 2016, 03:32:47 am

Wayne posted underside
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=273133;image)

Looks like soft potting compound maybe?
These things can't be that cheap to make? Processes like this add cost.
Also, as to be expected, the PCB is really thin, maybe under 0.4mm?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 25, 2016, 04:56:33 am

Wayne you should try this :

https://www.amazon.com/Westminster-Toys-Magic-Toy-Monkey/dp/B0000V4H4O/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1480049299&sr=8-14&keywords=monkey+toy (https://www.amazon.com/Westminster-Toys-Magic-Toy-Monkey/dp/B0000V4H4O/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1480049299&sr=8-14&keywords=monkey+toy)

I cannot find it on Amazon Australia but this monkey got some attention at the beginning.  It uses 2 - AA's.  It makes a noise so you can work while you do tests.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 05:06:31 am

To quote Wayne's 2nd Test:

Quote

The times won't correlate as it was just a rolling test of 2 batteries individually. Yes, I measured the voltage with the sleeve on in the 2nd
test as I figure that's what will happen if people buy them - all they will care about is if they are getting any benefit from them - they
won't be putting the sleeve on and off to measure the voltage. (Yes both batteries
coincidentally had the same starting voltage)

That means the Batteriser isn't even doing it's basic job of regulating a 1.5V output from any cell voltage!  :palm:
With output voltages of 1.58V, 1.46V after an hour, 1.21V after 10.5hours, 1.18V after 14.5hours  :o

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2016, 05:09:09 am

Quote from: ez24 on November 25, 2016, 04:56:33 am

Wayne you should try this :

(monkey)

A batterised monkey could be clapping much harder for a shorter time than an unbatterised one.

Is that a good test? What would a parent prefer? Infernal din for a short time or a bit less din but it amuses the offspring for longer?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2016, 05:33:12 am

Quote from: sleemanj on November 25, 2016, 12:21:20 am

Would our Darwinian friend be amenable to being sent a test device?

this is quick and dirty...

...and open to accusations of bias.

A Batteriser will always do worse on a purely resistive load. It's basic math: Higher voltage = more heat in the resister.

Then again, it will do always worse on a constant power load as well - it isn't 100% efficient.

It's hard to think of a device where it would actually be a win.

(The only thing that really comes to mind is a specially chosen GPS device or an LED flashlight that can't quite run the LED at maximum power because the Batteriser can't supply enough current, ie. We only get Batteriser heat instead of full-on LED heat.  :popcorn: )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 25, 2016, 05:58:45 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 04:51:02 am

Quote from: quad on November 25, 2016, 03:32:47 am

Wayne posted underside
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=273133;image)

Looks like soft potting compound maybe?
These things can't be that cheap to make? Processes like this add cost.
Also, as to be expected, the PCB is really thin, maybe under 0.4mm?

And now we see one of the issues in getting the Batteriser to market.  Potting is a nightmare in the best of circumstances.  Even in manual-operation-oriented China, that design is a huge mistake. Not only does it require massive amounts of time and filtering, the scrap rates must be through the roof. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 25, 2016, 06:03:18 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 05:06:31 am

That means the Batteriser isn't even doing it's basic job of regulating a 1.5V output from any cell voltage!  :palm:
With output voltages of 1.58V, 1.46V after an hour, 1.21V after 10.5hours, 1.18V after 14.5hours  :o

That was my immediate takeaway from seeing Wayne's data.

I know that everyone is jumping on to the bandwagon saying Wayne is doing it all wrong, but we've got that nugget right away.  That's a good start in my book. 

Keep testing Wayne!   :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 06:09:50 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 25, 2016, 05:33:12 am

The only thing that really comes to mind is a specially chosen GPS device

The Garmin Golf GPS test has been proven to be either a deliberate fraud, or gross incompetence in testing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2016, 06:36:46 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 25, 2016, 06:03:18 am

I know that everyone is jumping on to the bandwagon saying Wayne is doing it all wrong, but we've got that nugget right away.  That's a good start in my book. 

Keep testing Wayne!   :-+

My impression is that he's never seriously had to test anything before and is slowly figuring out that it's not easy.

He now has enough data to plan some tests that don't end in the middle of the night when he's asleep.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 25, 2016, 06:46:45 am

Maybe Wayne could put the "dead" batteries from the older tests that didn't use the Batteroos, and put them in a Batteroo sleeve and see how long the LED light goes for??

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: twice11 on November 25, 2016, 07:01:51 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 05:06:31 am

To quote Wayne's 2nd Test:
That means the Batteriser isn't even doing it's basic job of regulating a 1.5V output from any cell voltage!  :palm:
With output voltages of 1.58V, 1.46V after an hour, 1.21V after 10.5hours, 1.18V after 14.5hours  :o

Well, I think you are jumping to that conclusion too quickly. Surely, all of these numbers are different, but I guess all but one are outside the operational range of the device.

• 1.58V at the start from the fresh battery is above the target voltage, so a boost converter is unable to drop it to 1.5V. Props to Batteroo that they can handle "overvoltage" without the regulator chip doing something dumb
• 1.46V is the only point in this series with the batteroo sleeve operating. It is close enought to 1.5V (and the deviation might also be dure to an uncalibrated cheap meter)
• After 10.5 hours, the battery is practically dead, so the boost circuit is no longer able to uphold its output voltage.
• And during the last four hours, the battery was drained even more (at a low current with a very dim flashlight), so an even lower output voltage seems expected.

The interesting time range is from the time the battery first drops below 1.5V (likely at 5 to 15 minutes after start) to the time the battery is mostly discharged (likely at 2 to 4 hours after start, as there was the estimation of a current draw of around 750mA for the torch). There is no evidence yet that the batterizer does not work as specified during that time. In fact, in the first test, there were multiple data points at a similar voltage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 25, 2016, 07:12:30 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 25, 2016, 04:46:15 am

Quote from: quad on November 25, 2016, 03:54:55 am

I think there's a much more simple test that Wayne could do to see how these things perform in the real world.
...
Note the time when first one stops spinning.

Nah, they could be spinning at different speeds.
...

I wouldn't discount this test too quickly, as the current claim to "extend your battery life Significantly". It would be useful to know how much the Batteroo is shortening the battery life - albeit providing a faster spinning speed. 

Edit: Of course the best, most reliable and objective tests are going to come from people with the right tools, setup and experience like Dave and others.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 25, 2016, 07:48:19 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 25, 2016, 05:33:12 am

...an LED flashlight that can't quite run the LED at maximum power because the Batteriser can't supply enough current, ie. We only get Batteriser heat instead of full-on LED heat.  :popcorn: )

You might be on to something, and its the only device I can think of that may extend run time.

My $4 LED torches seem to have a buck/boost regulator of some sort, they'll take a 14500 lithium cell, at 4.2volts, and run the led at a reduced voltage, or a standard 1.5volt cell, and boost the voltage up.

While being dimmer off the AA cell, they also get more run time, and run cooler.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on November 25, 2016, 08:45:34 am

This whole thing stinks of diversionary tactics by Bob. Hat's off to him, he's a smart guy and knows exactly what he's doing... No doubt he's still trying to secure that 'Walmart' style deal before anyone who's not a groupie gets anything real... Won't matter then when proper testing reveal it's a crock of old BS.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on November 25, 2016, 10:54:29 am

I believe this whole thing is getting over complicated. I suggest we go back to the original claim !!
A fresh set of batteries - Time how long they last (no battereenie fitted) - then WHEN the device is accepted as EOL, remove and fit the batteroo. Time how much longer
life is extended.
The claim was - We ONLY use 20% of a battery's capacity, and batteroo will extend it 8X !! All other test procedures are "ours', and even though valid, complicate things.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2016, 11:11:41 am

Quote from: digsys on November 25, 2016, 10:54:29 am

The claim was - We ONLY use 20% of a battery's capacity, and batteroo will extend it 8X !! All other test procedures are "ours', and even though valid, complicate things.

UP TO 8x.

And Bob does have a device that lasts 8x longer - the Garmin GPS. This performance was verified by Underwriters Laboratory, a very trustworthy organization.

(The fact that UL didn't sign the report, you can't look it up on their web site and they placed conditions on usage doesn't matter...the report is real!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on November 25, 2016, 11:15:16 am

Yep, a very simple test that can be done by average Joe/Jane. Note the devices and times, and we'll get a nice list everybody should be able to understand.

<device>                   <runtime of batteries>     <additional runtime with Batteroo>         <gain>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on November 25, 2016, 11:45:39 am

Hi,

I thought I would try an experiment and measure the VI curves for the LED flashlights (torches for UK) that I have in the house. Then I thought I would do a Google search and see if it has already been done. Well it has been done and done really well.

Here is an example:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=273246;image)

This is just one of the results, picked at random.

Here is a link to page that explains the equipment used and the test method:

http://lygte-info.dk/info/HowDoITestADriver%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/info/HowDoITestADriver%20UK.html)

And then here is a link to the drivers that have been tested:

http://lygte-info.dk/info/indexLedDrivers%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/info/indexLedDrivers%20UK.html)

Some examples:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=273248;image)


At the other end of the scale we have a 'sophisticated' buck-boost circuit:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=273250;image)



What's the point of all this? to understand the test results with an LED flashlight as the load, you have to understand the flashlight circuitry too.
These LED drivers will give vastly different results.

With the Linear circuit, the brightness will be held constant when the cell voltage falls, but when the cell voltage is the battery discharge rate will be higher because the boost circuit in the Batteroo is causing more power dissipation in the linear regulator.

With the buck-boost circuit, The LED current and therefore brightness is independent of battery voltage. The Batteroo will add another stage of conversion efficiency and the battery life will be shortened by 7-10% Which may be difficult to detect.

It would be more useful to know:

1) Quiescent current, that is the battery current with no load.

2) The efficiency versus load current. This could be obtained from just be battery current with a known resistive load.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2016, 11:49:26 am

The target market isn't engineers. The target market is people who just want devices to last longer.

Batteriser promised to save the world's landfills from being filled with batteries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 11:55:04 am

Quote from: madires on November 25, 2016, 11:15:16 am

Yep, a very simple test that can be done by average Joe/Jane. Note the devices and times, and we'll get a nice list everybody should be able to understand.
<device>                   <runtime of batteries>     <additional runtime with Batteroo>         <gain>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a spreadsheet for that:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18K9c2YAT0d0QABGYGpzItbvDcgfAQCRUtloEzzfXADU/edit?usp=sharing

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on November 25, 2016, 12:22:00 pm

Quote from: Fungus

...  UP TO 8x ..

ok, UP TO

Quote from: Fungus

And Bob does have a device that lasts 8x longer - the Garmin GPS. This performance was verified by Underwriters Laboratory, a very trustworthy organization.
(The fact that UL didn't sign the report, you can't look it up on their web site and they placed conditions on usage doesn't matter...the report is real!) 

So, are you suggesting (or implying) that IF it lasts 1.2x longer, that it meets the claim? SO .. all he has to do, is find ONE non-verified test result, and the deal is done?
Well, I prefer real intelligent users run tests on various common products and verify it.
Sorry, but an 1.2X figure sure wouldn't fly in OZ. I would expect an average of 4X on various products, some higher, some lower -  then I'm sure everyone would be happy.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on November 25, 2016, 12:30:18 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 11:55:04 am

I have a spreadsheet for that:

KISS ;) Of course, the EE likes to have more data points, but this is for non-EEs. In case more IGG backers get their Batteroos, we should keep the test as simple as possible to give them some motivation to participate. We shouldn't ask for too much. If they understand the test, they'll help. They also want to verify if the sleeves are working as promised. As more devices are tested as better the statistical value becomes. When forum members get Batteroos, we'll get the "proper" data.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 12:42:46 pm

Quote from: madires on November 25, 2016, 12:30:18 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 11:55:04 am

I have a spreadsheet for that:

KISS ;) Of course, the EE likes to have more data points, but this is for non-EEs. In case more IGG backers get their Batteroos, we should keep the test as simple as possible to give them some motivation to participate. We shouldn't ask for too much. If they understand the test, they'll help. They also want to verify if the sleeves are working as promised. As more devices are tested as better the statistical value becomes. When forum members get Batteroos, we'll get the "proper" data.

How can my tests get any simpler?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2016, 01:08:02 pm

Quote from: digsys on November 25, 2016, 12:22:00 pm

So, are you suggesting (or implying) that IF it lasts 1.2x longer, that it meets the claim?

Not necessarily.

There's laws that prevent (eg) car manufacturers from saying, "Can do up to 1000mpg".

The average battery life would have to be a lot closer to 8x than 1.2x.

Would consumer protection go after Batteroo for making wild claims? Doubtful.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on November 25, 2016, 01:08:52 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 12:42:46 pm

How can my tests get any simpler?

By performing just the fresh-battery-until-dead and dead-battery-with-batteroo tests, which require just one set of batteries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on November 25, 2016, 01:51:24 pm

Quote from: wilfred

It is a long time ago now but IIRC that 8x or 800% claim was regarding batteries people throw out with most capacity remaining. Again IIRC they claimed to have surveyed a range of batteries people discard and some still had most of their energy remaining. Yes they worded things a bit cheekily but I don't recall they claimed they would turn 1 battery into 8. Which is how that particular claim has morphed.

It may be so, that somewhere they made a cheeky claim, but did the common man-in-the-street IGG subscriber understand that? Clearly?
It sure has riled shltloads of engineers / techs :-) 2nd highest post topic? And the constant fubar comments since? .. last over and over .. 6 times ... ?? .. use only in space ..

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2016, 02:03:00 pm

The actual claim was that 80% of our batteries goes unused, that Batteriser would tap into that unused 80%.

The "8x longer" was just bad math - it should have been "5x longer".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 25, 2016, 04:13:42 pm

Quote from: madires on November 25, 2016, 01:08:52 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 12:42:46 pm

How can my tests get any simpler?

By performing just the fresh-battery-until-dead and dead-battery-with-batteroo tests, which require just one set of batteries.

Yes, I agree. Very simple to perform, the results do not need any interpretation, just hard facts.

1. Take a new set of fresh batteries.
2. Measure the time until the device stops working ie. the working time without the Batteriser.
3. Attach the Batterisers to the batteries.
4. Measure the time until the device stops working again ie. the extra time provided by the Batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on November 25, 2016, 05:37:11 pm

Their maths (or use of concise English) hasn't gotten any better since they confused 500% with 800%; their website now headlines with "tap into 80% more energy with Batteroo" which would only extend the battery life by 180%. While at the same time they indirectly suggest 500% with their original claim that only 20% of a batteries energy is normally used and Batteroo will tap into the remaining energy. Confused? Oh yes.

But of course, saying that Batteroo "lets you instantly tap into the 80% of energy that is usually thrown away." is not the same a saying it can extract all of it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 25, 2016, 06:10:49 pm

Quote from: Blocco on November 25, 2016, 05:37:11 pm

Their maths (or use of concise English) hasn't gotten any better since they confused 500% with 800%; their website now headlines with "tap into 80% more energy with Batteroo" which would only extend the battery life by 180%. While at the same time they indirectly suggest 500% with their original claim that only 20% of battery capacity is normally used and Batteroo will extract the remaining. Confused? Yep.

But of course, saying that Batteroo "lets you instantly tap into the 80% of energy that is usually thrown away." is not the same a saying it can extract all of it.

Claiming that only 20% of the battery capacity is normally used, and one can tap into the 80% of the energy that is usually thrown away cannot mean anything else than this:
- If a device runs for 1 hour with the fresh batteries and then stops working, there should be still energy left for 4 hours, which can be tapped into with the Batteriser.
- In other words, if a device would normally run 1 hour with fresh batteries, the device should run 5 hours with the Batteriser.
That is their claim.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on November 25, 2016, 06:28:30 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on November 25, 2016, 06:10:49 pm

Quote from: Blocco on November 25, 2016, 05:37:11 pm

Their maths (or use of concise English) hasn't gotten any better since they confused 500% with 800%; their website now headlines with "tap into 80% more energy with Batteroo" which would only extend the battery life by 180%. While at the same time they indirectly suggest 500% with their original claim that only 20% of battery capacity is normally used and Batteroo will extract the remaining. Confused? Yep.

But of course, saying that Batteroo "lets you instantly tap into the 80% of energy that is usually thrown away." is not the same a saying it can extract all of it.

Claiming that only 20% of the battery capacity is normally used, and one can tap into the 80% of the energy that is usually thrown away cannot mean anything else than this:
- If a device runs for 1 hour with the fresh batteries and then stops working, there should be still energy left for 4 hours, which can be tapped into with the Batteriser.
- In other words, if a device would normally run 1 hour with fresh batteries, the device should run 5 hours with the Batteriser.
That is their claim.

With any battery I can tap into 100% of its stored energy every time I connect a load to it but that tells us nothing about how much of that energy I use or don't use or can't use. "Tap into" is not the same as "consume everything contained within".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 25, 2016, 06:36:30 pm

Could someone explain me what Bob is trying to say in the video time 8:14 - 9:40:
https://youtu.be/622uCZ_pE0w?t=494
Yes, by applying a constant current of 100mA, we will get the red line displaying the battery voltage as a function of time. But then he draws the rectangular and says something that doesn't make any sense at all. That Bob's misunderstanding is the reason why he thinks that the Batteriser will work, and that is the reason why the Batteriser will fail. He even got it documented very nicely.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: IanB on November 25, 2016, 07:11:59 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on November 25, 2016, 06:36:30 pm

Could someone explain me what Bob is trying to say in the video time 8:14 - 9:40:
https://youtu.be/622uCZ_pE0w?t=494
Yes, by applying a constant current of 100mA, we will get the red line displaying the battery voltage as a function of time. But then he draws the rectangular and says something that doesn't make any sense at all. That Bob's misunderstanding is the reason why he thinks that the Batteriser will work, and that is the reason why the Batteriser will fail. He even got it documented very nicely.

What he said there was completely wrong and crazy. I won't waste my time watching even a second more of that video. He drew a line representing 100 milliamps on the voltage axis of his graph, for heaven's sake.

To explain why the area under the curve is the correct measurement, we just need to consider the fundamental equation:

  energy = voltage x current x time

If we integrate the area under the voltage vs time graph we get (voltage x time). Since the current is constant, we can just multiply by the current to get the total energy.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: IanB on November 25, 2016, 07:16:29 pm

I have a clock that stops working when the battery voltage gets below about 1.25 V. I think this would be the perfect application for the Batteriser. A voltage sensitive device with a very low current draw and a high cut-off voltage.

Did they invest all that money to solve the problem of my clock?

(I solved the problem by using lithium batteries instead of alkaline. Then the clock runs for a decent time between battery changes.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 6581 on November 25, 2016, 07:49:37 pm

I'm still trying to solve the snail riddle, but my snails keep starving to death before they reach the top! It'd help if it wasn't a vertical wall, but a much more gentle voltage curve, but it turns out my snails keep falling to the voltage-drop crevasses. I'm now back to using monkeys - they climb much faster and can jump. Downside is that their cymbals are noisy! This whole batteroo thing is making me lose my mind.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on November 25, 2016, 07:49:50 pm

Quote from: wilfred on November 25, 2016, 01:28:10 pm

Again IIRC they claimed to have surveyed a range of batteries people discard and some still had most of their energy remaining.

No, they quoted someone else's reasearch into "discarded" cells without any regard for the reasons why those cells had been discarded or properly analyzing the data.  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on November 25, 2016, 07:51:08 pm

Testing in a motorised toy is only slightly better than the 'regulated' LED test... for a very limited test time.

Boob's kids may turn the toy on, and wait a couple of hours for it to run down, but more likely, they'll turn it off and on, stall it or cause the mechanism to stop for many reasons.
The point where Betterpoo is unable to restart the mechanism will be much sooner with the start current demand...

Let's just say we got something out of this whole debacle - a new word.
BATTERROOTED

BTW if Boob feels hard done by these pesky injuneer fellas, he should reflect back in time and reconsider what point may have been a good time to come clean on his mistaken claims.  Mea culpa.

Up to that point he could have been forgiven for moving forward based on incorrect calculations and advice, and retained a shred of his reputation, but now he's Batterooted it completely.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on November 25, 2016, 08:09:04 pm

Quote from: IanB on November 25, 2016, 07:16:29 pm

I have a clock that stops working when the battery voltage gets below about 1.25 V.

Did you measure that while the battery was still inside the clock?  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on November 25, 2016, 08:10:11 pm

Quote from: digsys on November 25, 2016, 12:22:00 pm

So, are you suggesting (or implying) that IF it lasts 1.2x longer, that it meets the claim?

LOL...  Well, that kind of deceptive claim is used all the time these days in all sorts of products across many diverse industries and it is rarely called out.  You can even rig up a test that will show some ridiculous number of times longer battery life (like the GPS test :palm: for exmple) and then claim that you were correct all along.

The simple fact of the matter is that with most products, unless the Batteroo Sleeve is delivering significantly less power to the load than a plain cell would deliver, (and this may be the case if the sleeve cannot deliver the current attempting to be drawn by the device!) over the operating time the sleeve will actually DECREASE the total battery life, not increase it at all, despite the fact that you can show a gain in certain situations.

If a flashlight draws more current than the Batteroo Sleeve can muster (so it is now operating as a current limiter) and thus the actual operating power of the lamps is less, it is possible for it to extend the life, though the luminosity would be less, which is opposite to their claims of providing maximum performance for a longer time.  You cannot "have your cake and eat it too" in this situation.  Either it ends up running the flashlight for a longer time at lower brightness (where you could have bought a "dimmer torch" in the first place; you're not the getting the full output that you expect from your device) than without the sleeve or it is going to run it for a shorter period of time. 

Especially if the flashlight already has the same kind of driver circuit in it...  Which is what many people don't understand... The devices where the designer and manufacturer decided it was worth it to put in a converter, they did.  Are there some devices whose performance characteristics will be altered by the addition of that circuitry?  Certainly.  Will it deliver anywhere near the claimed increase in runtime at full performance that they state, for the vast majority of products?  Not a chance.

Arrrrrr...  The laws of physics be a harsh mistress, Matey!  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2016, 08:28:16 pm

Quote from: IanB on November 25, 2016, 07:16:29 pm

I have a clock that stops working when the battery voltage gets below about 1.25 V. I think this would be the perfect application for the Batteriser. A voltage sensitive device with a very low current draw and a high cut-off voltage.

Sure.... unless the quiescent current of a Batteriser would drain the battery first.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: IanB on November 25, 2016, 08:33:00 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 25, 2016, 08:28:16 pm

Sure.... unless the quiescent current of a Batteriser would drain the battery first.

That would suck  :(

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2016, 09:10:33 pm

Another day goes by and nobody in the USA seems to have received a Batteriser.

(or anywhere else)

I think it's safe to assume that the guy in Darwin received one of last year's "press packs" that Bob promised to send out to people.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 09:13:56 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on November 25, 2016, 06:36:30 pm

Could someone explain me what Bob is trying to say in the video time 8:14 - 9:40:
https://youtu.be/622uCZ_pE0w?t=494
Yes, by applying a constant current of 100mA, we will get the red line displaying the battery voltage as a function of time. But then he draws the rectangular and says something that doesn't make any sense at all. That Bob's misunderstanding is the reason why he thinks that the Batteriser will work, and that is the reason why the Batteriser will fail. He even got it documented very nicely.

For a constant current load, it is simply a function of time, so you can look at it that way as just a % time function if you want. He conveniently does not mention constant power load though. He also uses the example of 50% in order to exaggerate his claim. To get that 50% time cutoff figure your product would have to have a cutoff of 1.2V or greater for a reasonable current. Most products don't do this of course.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 09:14:30 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 25, 2016, 09:10:33 pm

Another day goes by and nobody in the USA seems to have received a Batteriser.
(or anywhere else)
I think it's safe to assume that the guy in Darwin received one of last year's "press packs" that Bob promised to send out to people.

Another week goes by.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 09:20:48 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 25, 2016, 08:28:16 pm

Quote from: IanB on November 25, 2016, 07:16:29 pm

I have a clock that stops working when the battery voltage gets below about 1.25 V. I think this would be the perfect application for the Batteriser. A voltage sensitive device with a very low current draw and a high cut-off voltage.

Sure.... unless the quiescent current of a Batteriser would drain the battery first.

They originally claimed use in remote controls etc, but they later admitted they should not be used in low power devices

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 25, 2016, 09:28:42 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 09:20:48 pm

They originally claimed use in remote controls etc, but they later admitted they should not be used in low power devices

They also then admitted the original version couldn't supply the current needed for higher powered devices, so apparently went about redesigning it....  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on November 25, 2016, 09:38:17 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 09:20:48 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 25, 2016, 08:28:16 pm

Quote from: IanB on November 25, 2016, 07:16:29 pm

I have a clock that stops working when the battery voltage gets below about 1.25 V. I think this would be the perfect application for the Batteriser. A voltage sensitive device with a very low current draw and a high cut-off voltage.

Sure.... unless the quiescent current of a Batteriser would drain the battery first.

They originally claimed use in remote controls etc, but they later admitted they should not be used in low power devices

I can't remember what their recommended use case was in the end, i.e. do you use them all the time, or only when the cell appears exhausted in a given application?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 25, 2016, 09:42:08 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 09:13:56 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on November 25, 2016, 06:36:30 pm

Could someone explain me what Bob is trying to say in the video time 8:14 - 9:40:
https://youtu.be/622uCZ_pE0w?t=494
Yes, by applying a constant current of 100mA, we will get the red line displaying the battery voltage as a function of time. But then he draws the rectangular and says something that doesn't make any sense at all. That Bob's misunderstanding is the reason why he thinks that the Batteriser will work, and that is the reason why the Batteriser will fail. He even got it documented very nicely.

For a constant current load, it is simply a function of time, so you can look at it that way as just a % time function if you want. He conveniently does not mention constant power load though. He also uses the example of 50% in order to exaggerate his claim. To get that 50% time cutoff figure your product would have to have a cutoff of 1.2V or greater for a reasonable current. Most products don't do this of course.

More importantly, according to the video segment title, he was supposed to explain the [remaining] energy in the battery. He didn't seem to understand that the battery voltage is as equally important as the current when talking about the energy.

The total energy in the battery = time integral of instantaneous power  = time integral of p(t) = time integral of (instantaneous voltage * instantaneous current) = time integral of ( v(t) * i(t) ) = the area under the red curve. Although he insists otherwise.

It is possible that he still doesn't understand this as he hasn't posted any correction to the video. Well, if he did correct his mistake, basically there wouldn't be a Batteriser any more.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 09:54:51 pm

Quote from: Howardlong on November 25, 2016, 09:38:17 pm

I can't remember what their recommended use case was in the end, i.e. do you use them all the time, or only when the cell appears exhausted in a given application?

(http://i.imgur.com/3WptUZA.png)

But IIRC they admitted at one point that the best case usage scenario is when you put it on a dead battery

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 25, 2016, 10:15:30 pm

You might have to find a happy medium, or a psychic, or something as my breadboard is on the blink.   ::)

I do know this though, some people who believed got touched from beyond.   :P

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2016, 10:22:42 pm

Quote from: Howardlong on November 25, 2016, 09:38:17 pm

I can't remember what their recommended use case was in the end, i.e. do you use them all the time, or only when the cell appears exhausted in a given application?

They're worse in all types of load. Constant resistance, constant power, constant current...

Ye cannae change the laws of physics.

There might be specific devices which benefit due to the altered voltage curve but they'll be few and far between. It's certainly not something that should be sold to the unwashed masses for use in all their devices.

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on November 25, 2016, 10:58:57 pm

Quote from: wilfred on November 25, 2016, 10:40:20 pm

Quote from: drussell on November 25, 2016, 07:49:50 pm

Quote from: wilfred on November 25, 2016, 01:28:10 pm

Again IIRC they claimed to have surveyed a range of batteries people discard and some still had most of their energy remaining.

No, they quoted someone else's reasearch into "discarded" cells without any regard for the reasons why those cells had been discarded or properly analyzing the data.  :palm:

Don't face palm me. You've taken my quote out of the context it was placed in and ignored the clear qualification that I was relying on an uncertain recollection.
The context was that cells were discarded with considerable energy remaining and people threw them out. Yes they didn't study the reasons.(if you say so) I'm not defending Batterroo. I'm suggesting there is a drift around here away from the original campaign claims and since they were sufficiently outlandish there is no need to embelish them.

Calm down...

He's not face palming *you*; his face palm was directed at what he said, I.e., the fact Bateroo quoted someone else's research out of context.

Furthermore, he didn't quote *you* out of context, either. He snipped your quote to reply to that specific part. He was just clarifying your uncertain recollection.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 25, 2016, 11:02:48 pm

The reason for discarding the good batteries may be very simple. I have no data to back me up, though, so this is just guessing: Let's say you have a gadget using four AA batteries. You take a fresh package of four AA batteries and insert the batteries into the gadget. When using the gadget, the batteries may not drain evenly. When the gadget stops working, the best battery or best two batteries may still have considerable amount of unused energy left. However, it is easier to replace the all four batteries rather than trying to figure out which batteries are still usable - and how much energy there is still available before you need to change the batteries again. Using the Batteriser will not help here either, because in practice you still need to replace all four batteries at the same time as you do not know the state of the individual battery. With a gadget using only one battery the situation is a bit simpler.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: IanB on November 25, 2016, 11:07:42 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on November 25, 2016, 11:02:48 pm

The reason for discarding the good batteries may be very simple. I have no data to back me up, though, so this is just guessing: Let's say you have a gadget using four AA batteries. You take a fresh package of four AA batteries and insert the batteries into the gadget. When using the gadget, the batteries may not drain evenly. When the gadget stops working, the best battery or best two batteries may still have considerable amount of unused energy left. However, it is easier to replace the all four batteries rather than trying to figure out which batteries are still usable - and how much energy there is still available before you need to change the batteries again. Using the Batteriser will not help here either, because in practice you still need to replace all four batteries at the same time as you do not know the state of the individual battery. With a gadget using only one battery the situation is a bit simpler.

It is very unlikely the batteries will drain unevenly if they are connected in series. But even if they did, it has long been emphasized that you shouldn't replace only some batteries in a set. If you do that the weaker batteries are very likely to leak.

The most common use case where partially depleted batteries are routinely discarded is in critical reliability applications. If the battery must not fail unexpectedly you always start out with fresh batteries regardless of how little use the existing batteries have seen. One example might be wireless microphones in a stage play. Medical applications could be another. Battery extenders are not applicable to these scenarios.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 25, 2016, 11:22:08 pm

Quote from: IanB on November 25, 2016, 11:07:42 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on November 25, 2016, 11:02:48 pm

The reason for discarding the good batteries may be very simple. I have no data to back me up, though, so this is just guessing: Let's say you have a gadget using four AA batteries. You take a fresh package of four AA batteries and insert the batteries into the gadget. When using the gadget, the batteries may not drain evenly. When the gadget stops working, the best battery or best two batteries may still have considerable amount of unused energy left. However, it is easier to replace the all four batteries rather than trying to figure out which batteries are still usable - and how much energy there is still available before you need to change the batteries again. Using the Batteriser will not help here either, because in practice you still need to replace all four batteries at the same time as you do not know the state of the individual battery. With a gadget using only one battery the situation is a bit simpler.

It is very unlikely the batteries will drain unevenly if they are connected in series. But even if they did, it has long been emphasized that you shouldn't replace only some batteries in a set. If you do that the weaker batteries are very likely to leak.

The most common use case where partially depleted batteries are routinely discarded is in critical reliability applications. If the battery must not fail unexpectedly you always start out with fresh batteries regardless of how little use the existing batteries have seen. One example might be wireless microphones in a stage play. Medical applications could be another. Battery extenders are not applicable to these scenarios.

Yes, I totally agree. Your explanation makes 100% sense. For example, If I were to go hiking and need to make sure that my flashlight will not go out of business in the middle of the night, I would definitely make sure that it has new set of batteries, unless I am absolutely sure that the current batteries are still good. If I would have any doubt, I would just replace the batteries, even if ending up discarding perfectly good set of batteries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 11:22:48 pm

Quote from: drussell on November 25, 2016, 07:49:50 pm

Quote from: wilfred on November 25, 2016, 01:28:10 pm

Again IIRC they claimed to have surveyed a range of batteries people discard and some still had most of their energy remaining.

No, they quoted someone else's reasearch into "discarded" cells without any regard for the reasons why those cells had been discarded or properly analyzing the data.  :palm:

Correct. And they got that link to that paper from this forum!
It must have been like finding gold for them. Well, gold that they can wrongly quote mine anyway.
Yes, they completely and very deliberately interpreted the data from that report in a way that benefited their case. Didn't matter that they were completely wrong, they can point to independent data and say "I told you so!, people throw away mostly fully charged batteries!, look at this report!"  ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 25, 2016, 11:25:14 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on November 25, 2016, 11:22:08 pm

Yes, I totally agree. Your explanation makes 100% sense. For example, If I were to go hiking and need to make sure that my flashlight will not go out of business in the middle of the night, I would definitely make sure that it has new set of batteries, unless I am absolutely sure that the current batteries are still good. If I would have any doubt, I would just replace the batteries, even if ending up discarding perfectly good set of batteries.

And that's the trick. Most people love the idea of the Batteriser, but in practice they aren't going to carry them around and use them.
Few people want to whack a mostly dead battery back in with an unknown lifetime, they's rather stic in a new batter and know what time they are going to get. Most people would choose the latter option every time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 26, 2016, 02:42:30 am

yet another?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=273495;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 26, 2016, 03:49:46 am

Quote from: quad on November 26, 2016, 02:42:30 am

yet another?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=273495;image)

Proof positive they work !   Umm Wayne has been quite?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on November 26, 2016, 04:29:46 am

Did it clean his teeth?  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on November 26, 2016, 05:52:23 am

Quote from: wilfred on November 25, 2016, 10:40:20 pm

Quote from: drussell on November 25, 2016, 07:49:50 pm

Quote from: wilfred on November 25, 2016, 01:28:10 pm

Again IIRC they claimed to have surveyed a range of batteries people discard and some still had most of their energy remaining.

No, they quoted someone else's reasearch into "discarded" cells without any regard for the reasons why those cells had been discarded or properly analyzing the data.  :palm:

Don't face palm me.

No, no, no...  My apologies....  You misunderstand...  The :facepalm: was for THEM!!!

I realize you know what you're talking about but many people reading the tail end of this thread may not realize the facts due to the loss of context.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 26, 2016, 06:20:11 am

Quote from: ez24 on November 26, 2016, 03:49:46 am

Proof positive they work !   Umm Wayne has been quite?

We don't know what communication has been happening with Wayne.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on November 26, 2016, 06:32:29 am

Quote from: Brumby

   We don't know what communication has been happening with Wayne. 

I have reliable info that his batteries are flat, and is waiting for replacements :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on November 26, 2016, 08:08:16 am

Quote from: quad on November 26, 2016, 02:42:30 am

yet another?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=273495;image)

Do electric toothbrushes even exist? If I had to guess how long my own toothbrush would run on alkaline's I'd say a couple of days tops. That would be horrible inefficient, even if the batteriser could extract 8x more life out of it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 26, 2016, 08:23:43 am

Quote from: PeterL on November 26, 2016, 08:08:16 am

Do electric toothbrushes even exist? If I had to guess how long my own toothbrush would run on alkaline's I'd say a couple of days tops. That would be horrible inefficient, even if the batteriser could extract 8x more life out of it.

Most people use rechargeable ones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJgKfTW53uo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJgKfTW53uo)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on November 26, 2016, 08:36:55 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 26, 2016, 08:23:43 am

Most people use rechargeable ones.

Yeah sorry, what I meant was ones with replaceable batteries?  I only know the Braun/OralB and Philips ones.
I have one similar to that in your teardown, and if it ran on alkaline's it would easily chew through 50 batteries a year. That makes no sense to me.

So toothbrushes that run on replaceable batteries? anyone?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on November 26, 2016, 08:47:09 am

Quote from: PeterL on November 26, 2016, 08:36:55 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 26, 2016, 08:23:43 am

Most people use rechargeable ones.

Yeah sorry, what I meant was ones with replaceable batteries?  I only know the Braun/OralB and Philips ones.
I have one similar to that in your teardown, and if it ran on alkaline's it would easily chew through 50 batteries a year. That makes no sense to me.

So toothbrushes that run on replaceable batteries? anyone?

Oral-B sells one, DB4010. https://www.conrad.nl/nl/oral-b-advance-power-elektrische-tandenborstel-roterend-oscillerend-wit-blauw-827822.html (https://www.conrad.nl/nl/oral-b-advance-power-elektrische-tandenborstel-roterend-oscillerend-wit-blauw-827822.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on November 26, 2016, 08:58:22 am

Quote from: PeterL on November 26, 2016, 08:36:55 am

So toothbrushes that run on replaceable batteries? anyone?

I use one that runs on AA's. I used to travel a lot and the inductive charging stations for the rechargeable ones always took up too much space, and most of them weren't international voltage at the time. I still use it, albeit with eneloops now.

The battery powered ones also probably cost a third or less than the rechargeable ones.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: IanB on November 26, 2016, 09:21:23 am

Quote from: PeterL on November 26, 2016, 08:36:55 am

Yeah sorry, what I meant was ones with replaceable batteries?  I only know the Braun/OralB and Philips ones.
I have one similar to that in your teardown, and if it ran on alkaline's it would easily chew through 50 batteries a year. That makes no sense to me.

So toothbrushes that run on replaceable batteries? anyone?

There was a Philips Sonicare powered by alkaline batteries, but they discontinued it. It seems they couldn't seal it properly, water got in and customers kept complaining about it failing. I regret not buying a spare or two while they were available.

I have one and it runs for three to four weeks on a set of batteries. I use rechargeable batteries--they are much more suitable for such a device than alkalines. They are more powerful and have a flatter discharge curve.

Mind you, at 4/$1, 48 alkaline batteries would only cost $12+tax. That would be right down in the noise of my routine expenses.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on November 26, 2016, 09:23:59 am

Electric toothbrushes that run on AA or AAA cell(s) are the only devices I own where I think a Batteroo could bring an improvement because as the motor slows down the performance falls considerably and they become ineffective even though they continue to run for quite a long time.

However, the battery compartments tend to be quite tight so the Batteroo might not fit some toothbrushes, usually when the battery is exhausted the toothbrush needs replacing anyway and a new one includes a battery and often, they are not designed to have the cell(s) replaced so it can be a bit of a hassle.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 26, 2016, 09:27:40 am

Quote from: Brumby on November 26, 2016, 06:20:11 am

Quote from: ez24 on November 26, 2016, 03:49:46 am

Proof positive they work !   Umm Wayne has been quite?

We don't know what communication has been happening with Wayne.

Wayne doesn't strike me as an EEVBLOG reader but...

...he knew exactly who Dave was. He new that Dave had been badmouthing Batteriser. That Dave was The Enemy.

How does that work if you're just a random person who received some Batterisers in the post?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: IanB on November 26, 2016, 09:57:35 am

Quote from: Blocco on November 26, 2016, 09:23:59 am

Electric toothbrushes that run on AA or AAA cell(s) are the only devices I own where I think a Batteroo could bring an improvement because as the motor slows down the performance falls considerably and they become ineffective even though they continue to run for quite a long time.

Put rechargeable batteries (Eneloops) in them and this won't happen. You will be amazed at the transformation.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 26, 2016, 03:35:29 pm

Just spotted this on a the Youtube video: Batteriser Bullshit Part 3 - Batteriser Mock-ups vs. Regular Alkalines (BUSTED!) - #0100  youtube.com/watch?v=00YYQxOn2YE

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=273628;image)

Batteroo are STILL plaguing Batteriser-related Youtube comment sections under accounts that don't officially represent Batteroo (they're not responsible for what "fans" say!!). Pathetic. This particular account is very blatant, "Davey Jonez". Of course it's a no face account, 0 subscribers, 0 videos. *sigh*

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=273630;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on November 26, 2016, 05:14:04 pm

Quote from: PeterL on November 26, 2016, 08:36:55 am

So toothbrushes that run on replaceable batteries? anyone?

I have a razor (made by Wilkinson Sword) that has proper blades for wet shaving at one end and a little hair trimmer at the other end to tidy up the edges of your beard or moustache that runs on a single AAA alkaline battery. It probably only gets used in 60-120 second bursts once every 3 days to a week but a battery easily lasts six months.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on November 26, 2016, 05:24:10 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 26, 2016, 09:27:40 am

Quote from: Brumby on November 26, 2016, 06:20:11 am

Quote from: ez24 on November 26, 2016, 03:49:46 am

Proof positive they work !   Umm Wayne has been quite?

We don't know what communication has been happening with Wayne.

Wayne doesn't strike me as an EEVBLOG reader but...

...he knew exactly who Dave was. He new that Dave had been badmouthing Batteriser. That Dave was The Enemy.

How does that work if you're just a random person who received some Batterisers in the post?

Perhaps he knows how to use Google?

Seriously, if you see a product that interests you isn't it now second nature to Google for opinions and further information? Dave's videos and the forum appear in the first page of Google search results for "batterizer".

It's a bit low handed to ascribe malicious intent just because Wayne did a bit of research. I've researched Adolf Hitler, Karl Marx and Ayn Rand in the past; does that make me a Nazi, a Communist or a Neo-liberal (posh new name for almost a Neo-Nazi)? No, it just means I did some background research.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amirm on November 26, 2016, 05:49:06 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 26, 2016, 09:27:40 am

Wayne doesn't strike me as an EEVBLOG reader but...

...he knew exactly who Dave was. He new that Dave had been badmouthing Batteriser. That Dave was The Enemy.

How does that work if you're just a random person who received some Batterisers in the post?

He said he visited the factory so no doubt that was topic of conversation there.  And if he wanted to be a dealer, he may have  searched and landed on Dave's Youtube videos.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 26, 2016, 06:09:22 pm

Quote from: amirm on November 26, 2016, 05:49:06 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 26, 2016, 09:27:40 am

Wayne doesn't strike me as an EEVBLOG reader but...

...he knew exactly who Dave was. He new that Dave had been badmouthing Batteriser. That Dave was The Enemy.

How does that work if you're just a random person who received some Batterisers in the post?

He said he visited the factory so no doubt that was topic of conversation there.  And if he wanted to be a dealer, he may have  searched and landed on Dave's Youtube videos.

And the conclusion he got from Dave's videos was that Dave is a "Complete Tosser"?

Nah, I reckon he was primed to think that by somebody.

PS: You still haven't explained why he's the only person in the world with a box of Batterisers in his hands - despite Batteroo posting everything from the USA since a month ago and having filled 30%+ of the orders.

(The greek guy is unverified and seems to have vanished)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on November 26, 2016, 06:39:38 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 26, 2016, 06:09:22 pm

PS: You still haven't explained why he's the only person in the world with a box of Batterisers in his hands -

Funnily enough, in the real world, that's not my job; particularly because I've never said anything on the subject.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on November 26, 2016, 07:11:12 pm

New comment from Bob.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amirm on November 26, 2016, 07:28:38 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 26, 2016, 06:09:22 pm

And the conclusion he got from Dave's videos was that Dave is a "Complete Tosser"?

Not being Australian, I have no idea what a tosser is, let alone a complete one.  :D

Quote

Nah, I reckon he was primed to think that by somebody.

That is what I said.  He went to the factory and they did their technical talk/demos on why Dave is wrong.  To a lay person it would be very hard to adjudicate who is right.  They would simply go by secondary signs.  In this case, Wayne has a clear preference for American accent than Australian!  :D :D

Quote

PS: You still haven't explained why he's the only person in the world with a box of Batterisers in his hands - despite Batteroo posting everything from the USA since a month ago and having filled 30%+ of the orders.

(The greek guy is unverified and seems to have vanished)

When I used to live in corporate world, we always have our list of reviewers/reporters which were friendly to us and were more likely say good things about us.  As such, we would reach out to them first to write about our new products/technology.  If I were the Batteroo crew, I would certainly pick Wayne to get the first few units to make him feel special and say good things about us.  No mystery here.

As to Greek guy, I saw him shopping at our local grocery store this morning so he has not vanished.  :D :D :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on November 26, 2016, 07:43:36 pm

Quote from: amirm on November 26, 2016, 07:28:38 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 26, 2016, 06:09:22 pm

And the conclusion he got from Dave's videos was that Dave is a "Complete Tosser"?

Not being Australian, I have no idea what a tosser is, let alone a complete one.  :D

The guy is from the Northern Territories so quite a fair dinkum away from Sydney, Innsbruck or Vienna. They have their own vernacular in Darwin. It's a very common word in UK too.

I prefer terms like a "merchant" or "oil tanker" as my teenage years as a born and bred Scouser growing up with Cockney mates in London would attest to. ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 26, 2016, 09:05:43 pm

Quote from: Macbeth on November 26, 2016, 07:43:36 pm

I prefer terms like a "merchant"

"merchant banker"? I didn't know that one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on November 26, 2016, 10:10:48 pm

Quote from: amirm on November 26, 2016, 07:28:38 pm

Not being Australian, I have no idea what a tosser is, let alone a complete one.  :D

Complete tosser == enthusiastic onanist. It means the same in canonical English too. Related to, and possibly derived from, 'toss-pot' for one who drinks overly, i.e. tosses back many pots of ale. Both mean "a worthless individual, a waste of space".

Here endeth today's lesson in etymology.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on November 26, 2016, 10:34:40 pm

I don't think Wayne was trying to be rude. I'm pretty certain that "complete tosser!" is simply a friendly colloquialism in Darwin, it's really just a less formal version of "good on ya mate!". :-+

The trick is to apply the Australian rising inflection at the end and it sounds quite chirpy.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on November 26, 2016, 10:47:53 pm

Quote from: Blocco on November 26, 2016, 10:34:40 pm

I don't think Wayne was trying to be rude. I'm pretty certain that "complete tosser!" is simply a friendly colloquialism in Darwin, it's really just a less formal version of "good on ya mate!". :-+
The trick is to apply the Australian rising inflection at the end and it sounds quite chirpy.

Ohhh.. you mean like 'drongo' ! (which is far more likely in the Australian Outback !)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on November 26, 2016, 10:58:57 pm

Quote from: SL4P on November 26, 2016, 10:47:53 pm

Quote from: Blocco on November 26, 2016, 10:34:40 pm

I don't think Wayne was trying to be rude. I'm pretty certain that "complete tosser!" is simply a friendly colloquialism in Darwin, it's really just a less formal version of "good on ya mate!". :-+
The trick is to apply the Australian rising inflection at the end and it sounds quite chirpy.

Ohhh.. you mean like 'drongo' ! (which is far more likely in the Australian Outback !)

Yes, I imagine that "drongo!" would be the less friendly version of "complete drongo!".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 26, 2016, 11:25:14 pm

Quote from: firewalker on November 26, 2016, 07:11:12 pm

New comment from Bob.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48950.0;attach=273688;image)

Exact same thing he's been saying for weeks now.
They are being shipped locally by USPS, we have photographic proof of that, people should have gotten them within days. Yet not a single person in the US has a unit?  :bullshit:
I've shipped 100+ internationals a day manually all by myself, no problems. More if just local which is easier because no CN22 form required.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on November 26, 2016, 11:51:09 pm

Bob sure doesn't know much about his own "shipping" process. I would have thought that after all the other delays and excuses he would have made damn sure the "shipping" was handled competently.

I wonder if there is any significance to the emerging nautical theme in his responses i.e. "shipping" and "waves".....   perhaps these are a preamble to more accurate terms like "shipwreck", "run aground" or "sunk without a trace".

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on November 27, 2016, 12:01:06 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 26, 2016, 11:25:14 pm

Quote from: firewalker on November 26, 2016, 07:11:12 pm

New comment from Bob.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48950.0;attach=273688;image)

Exact same thing he's been saying for weeks now.
They are being shipped locally by USPS, we have photographic proof of that, people should have gotten them within days. Yet not a single person in the US has a unit?  :bullshit:
I've shipped 100+ internationals a day manually all by myself, no problems. More if just local which is easier because no CN22 form required.

Yes, if they shipped them USPS Priority, which would have cost $5-$10, they would have arrived within 3 days, absolute max. Parcel Select would have been $3-$5 and taken 3-7 days.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on November 27, 2016, 12:05:18 am

Maybe apart from the fact the BatterPoo doesn't actually do what's claimed - Boob may have missed the shipping costs in his budget projections - so he has containers of 'Poo in his shed, and can't afford to ship them at the advertised price.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 27, 2016, 12:39:06 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 26, 2016, 11:25:14 pm

Quote from: firewalker on November 26, 2016, 07:11:12 pm

New comment from Bob.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=48950.0;attach=273688;image)

Exact same thing he's been saying for weeks now.
They are being shipped locally by USPS, we have photographic proof of that, people should have gotten them within days. Yet not a single person in the US has a unit?  :bullshit:
I've shipped 100+ internationals a day manually all by myself, no problems. More if just local which is easier because no CN22 form required.

Trivia:  USPS is actually one of the fastest shipping methods in the USA.  The Postal Service contracts with FedEx to fly the parcels, so stuff gets where it's going damned quick.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 27, 2016, 02:10:56 am

Quote from: Blocco on November 26, 2016, 10:34:40 pm

I don't think Wayne was trying to be rude. I'm pretty certain that "complete tosser!" is simply a friendly colloquialism in Darwin, it's really just a less formal version of "good on ya mate!". :-+

The trick is to apply the Australian rising inflection at the end and it sounds quite chirpy.

Ah....  No.

This phrase might be used as a friendly jibe in some situations, but they will usually be between people who are well known to each other.  This is not the case here, so there is nothing friendly about it.

"Tosser" is generally used anywhere in Australia as a derogatory reference.  While there may be some subtleties involved, you can often substitute the word "idiot" for a good sense of the intended meaning, as is the case here.   Wayne was pretty much calling Dave a complete idiot.

We don't really know how Wayne came to form his opinion, but I can imagine that his desire to market a product that could provide some usefulness - even if limited - would not react well to strong, negative criticism... whether that opinion was through discovery or grooming.


It is a shame that this whole subject has a very common problem.  The question asked is "Will it work?" - and people look to one of two answers: "Yes" or "No".

Such black and white answers are completely inappropriate in a world of grey.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Faith on November 27, 2016, 02:36:43 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 27, 2016, 12:39:06 am

Trivia:  USPS is actually one of the fastest shipping methods in the USA.  The Postal Service contracts with FedEx to fly the parcels, so stuff gets where it's going damned quick.

Bob is full of hot air. I sell stuff online a fair bit and even with cheap-shit "Economy Mail" with tracking that barely works the longest a parcel has ever been in transit from Singapore to the USA was three weeks. And that's rare, as Economy usually takes around two weeks. Also bear in mind that this is from Singapore, pretty much from half-way across the globe, *and* top it off with the fact that the parcel needs to be handled by my local postal services first before reaching USPS in the USA.

Priority, which doesn't cost all that much more, takes 7-10 calendar days (guaranteed) and EMS Express is so bloody quick (usually 3 calendar days) that I rarely even bother with DHL, FedEx or UPS, since I live walking distance from my local post office.

I also happen to buy stuff online a lot, and even Royal Fucking Mail from the UK, which has quite the reputation of being hopelessly crap (maybe it's a domestic thing, but they sure as hell are incredibly gung-ho and ridiculously value-for-money when it comes to international dispatch), manages to deliver Economy International Parcels in ONE WEEK which my sellers usually pay all of FIVE QUID for.

Actually, where is Bob shipping from again? China? If that's the case then he's even more full of shit than his body is able to contain because Chinese suppliers are quite well known for being able to squeeze incredible value and performance out of the shipping companies they contract.

TLDR; Bob is full of shit. But I think we all knew this already, from, oh; about 6,667 posts ago.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on November 27, 2016, 09:36:27 am

Customs can be a PITA but I can not imagine that all parcells are held for inspection.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 27, 2016, 09:39:50 am

Quote from: Kjelt on November 27, 2016, 09:36:27 am

Customs can be a PITA but I can not imagine that all parcells are held for inspection.

Certainly not if you're posting to the USA from the USA.

(For those who arrived late: Bob is posting from the USA...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 27, 2016, 09:43:31 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 27, 2016, 09:39:50 am

Quote from: Kjelt on November 27, 2016, 09:36:27 am

Customs can be a PITA but I can not imagine that all parcells are held for inspection.

Certainly not if you're posting to the USA from the USA.

(For those who arrived late: Bob is posting from the USA...)

The thing is though, to get pallet(s) of stock from China, to the USA, would have to come by ship, taking somewhere around 2 months all up....

He never mentioned this was happening, surely, if their production was complete, and the shipment was on the way, you'd mention this...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on November 27, 2016, 09:47:06 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 27, 2016, 09:39:50 am

Quote from: Kjelt on November 27, 2016, 09:36:27 am

Customs can be a PITA but I can not imagine that all parcells are held for inspection.

Certainly not if you're posting to the USA from the USA.

(For those who arrived late: Bob is posting from the USA...)

Thanks,
I am here from the beginning but I missed that part that they claimed all products are already in the USA  :bullshit:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 27, 2016, 09:51:42 am

Quote from: Kjelt on November 27, 2016, 09:47:06 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 27, 2016, 09:39:50 am

Quote from: Kjelt on November 27, 2016, 09:36:27 am

Customs can be a PITA but I can not imagine that all parcells are held for inspection.

Certainly not if you're posting to the USA from the USA.

(For those who arrived late: Bob is posting from the USA...)

Thanks,
I am here from the beginning but I missed that part that they claimed all products are already in the USA  :bullshit:

Here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1077837/#msg1077837 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1077837/#msg1077837)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on November 27, 2016, 01:34:52 pm

From latest developements I conclude, that the only stuff Bob can ship at the moment are a few samples, the old Batteriser prototype sleeves and some later Batteroo sleeves he took back home at his last trip to China, if he ever was there. The first shipping wave was just a few samples for some resellers or VIPs to prove that there's a product and that it's shipped. As already mentioned, this might be related to getting the next tranche from SK to be able to actually produce sleeves. All the money from crowdfunding backers is burned already. There could be a few more "I received mine and they work" posts, but I doubt backers getting their Batteroo sleeves soon, if at all. Bob doesn't even have all their postal addresses, as the posts on IGG show. If Bob was shipping for real, he would have asked each backer for the current address or to confirm the known one, and the shipping would be handled by some company in China to take advantage of the low shipping costs. It's an unmitigated disaster, and Bob tries to weasel through this while telling backers nonsense after nonsense.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Revive Batteries on November 27, 2016, 02:34:43 pm

Post 1
This is the 1st time I’ve ever posted on a blog so I don’t know if I’ve done it correctly – I’m sure you will let me know.

Based on the amount of bullshit being spread about on this forum about me, I thought I might put my 2 bobs worth in and try to clear some things up. I’m going to do 2 posts and then you’ll never hear from me again.
Firstly, there seems to be a lot of speculation about me, who I am, what my business is all about and what my motives are etc. etc.etc. (some tosser even did a google map screen shot of my house with my mobile workshop trailer out the front and made a big deal about it? For fucks sakes – get your hand off your dick and re-focus on the important things in your life).
The only reason I’m even bothering to do this is because a lot of you have been seriously questioning my honesty and integrity (think about it for a minute – everything you say and infer on the internet stays there for others to find – why fucken do it if it’s not legit?)
Anyway, here it is:
•   What do I know about electrical engineering or physics? – 2 fifth’s of fuck all.
•   What is my background – got kicked out of university in 1977 for being disruptive and questioning too many things – went into retail – 23 years later after travelling the country and being in some senior management roles I decided to try something different – spent 12 years in a high end pearling company managing their production and distribution facilities and made a shitload of coin – pulled the pin in 2012 and started a hobby business reconditioning batteries.
•   What do I know about batteries – only what I taught myself – in 2007 we bought 20 acres about 1 hour out of Darwin and I decided to design and build a completely off grid house myself – it’s about 60% done – no fancy plans – just make it up as you go – that included a solar system and batteries – it now runs perfectly on second hand reconditioned batteries. (That’s where I was this weekend – drinking beer and having a fat time with my missus and mates)
•   I spend a lot of time looking for interesting and unusual products that may be worth selling – eg. I’m now the Aussie agent for Trollbridge24 (electrical, you may be interested in checking it out) – also Facecradle (another crowd funding product  I’m hoping to stock in our Newsagency – it’s a ripper – check it out)
•   I’m not big on the internet or how things on there work – it took me over an hour to work out how to put the torch tests and photos on facebook – but I do know how to find things and research them(check out my website and facebook – pretty average).

Why did I write that rude email to Dave?
Simple really: I made one comment on Indiegogo to say that I’d received my batteroo order and that they do increase the voltage of batteries – next minute everybody’s flogging the shit out of me? – this blog, emails, phone calls – WTF – and then to top it off, Dave back door’s me with an email offering to buy them all at some inflated price.
I’m not some dumb gullible fuck! (Although some of my mates might disagree but most of them are tossers anyway).

The next post will be about my dealings with Batteroo.

All the best, Wayne.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Revive Batteries on November 27, 2016, 02:45:32 pm

Post 2
So in the last week or so since I made a simple comment on Indiegogo, there a veritable shitload of experts on this forum who have decided they know exactly what my dealings have been and will be with Batteroo.
Let me clarify it for you – 100% up front for the record – no fucken bullshit!

1.   In about July last year, I stumbled across the Batteriser Indiegogo campaign and given my interest in batteries it looked quite interesting.
2.   I did a heap of research – I saw all the negative stuff – including this blog and all the you tube videos ( I could clearly understand what the scepticism was about)– I also researched all the individuals involved in the project (they seemed to be quite reputable people with wide ranging professional careers).
3.   I also tried to figure out what could be in it for them to scam a few hundred grand out of some Indiegogo supporters (or why they actually put it on there in the 1st place?) – it wouldn’t even cover a small % of the funds it would take to get this thing developed and to market.
4.   WTF – I decided to order 4 x AA packs and check it out – cost was US$35 plus $15 shipping – Total $50 (By the way –I have now recouped my $50 thanks to Lab Spokane on this blog – thanks for keeping your word even though you thought I was bullshitting about having them)
5.   In November last year I started hounding them about being a potential reseller in the Northern Territory – I never got any responses but kept trying – in April this year I got an email back and that resulted in a conference call to have a discussion – it was agreed that if things worked out that I could be a reseller / distributor for the product in my state – no firm commitments by either side until I had received and tested the product. (For the record – I have never seen, met or talked to Bob – these were senior managers in the company)
6.   Since then there have been a few emails – mostly updates regarding the delays and the trademark lawsuits filed by Energizer which set them back a long way (and a lot of money – why would Energizer sue them if there was no chance it would work?).
7.   In October, I went to California to go to the Desert Trip concert (how could I miss it with Bob Dylan, Rolling Stones, Neil Young, Paul McArtney, The Who & Roger Waters all at the same event? – fuck it was good). Anyway, because we were driving past, I arranged to stop in and see the people from Batteroo – we were supposed to have lunch but we were late so just had a look around the office.
8.   I was a bit surprised they were housed in a South Korea Telecom building – I later found out that this building is funded by SK Telecom to house up and coming tech start ups that they think have potential (I guess they do their homework on who gets in?)
9.   Our 2 friends were left in the car so my wife and I could not stay too long – we had a good look through all the offices and were shown around by 2 of the senior managers – we saw some admin people and some people doing testing etc. We were shown how the Batteriser increased the voltage on a number of batteries and also saw some gadgets running with the sleeves on that would not run with the sleeves off. We also discussed how I could be a reseller in the Northern Territory.
10.   One thing that has been made clear all along is that my potential market is very small and their focus is more about launching in the US and other larger markets so I’m a small fish in a big ocean. I was the one pushing them.
11.   I left a comment on Indiegogo when I got back to Aus – you’ve all seen it and some have had a go at me about it.
12.   Then I received my Indiegogo order last week and left another comment – which has lead to all this shit.(I don’t know if I got bumped up the list or not – as far as I know they are shipping based on where people are in the queue) 
13.   Why did I do the tests on the LED torches? Simple: they were the only fucken AA devices I could find around the house that would drain relatively quickly. (Who wants to wait around for a year to see how the batteries go in the wall clock or remote control – everything else I have is AAA and I never ordered any – my own fucken fault – I do have some AAA samples coming now though)
14.   So what’s my stand on all this? I don’t know! I’ve bought some AA products from Kmart to try them out next week and see what happens.

I’m sure all you experts are totally correct in the highly technical details of what you assume the product to be and you may well be 100% correct. I’m looking at it more from a practical viewpoint and whether there actually is some obvious benefit to the average consumer and whether it is a viable product. If for some reason there are dishonest intentions by the principles in this Company, it will come out very quickly and no doubt be dealt with by the applicable authorities.

One thing’s for sure, unless I’m 100% convinced, I won’t add it to my portfolio.

As you can see by now, I’m no expert in electronics but I do have a couple of points / questions that I have not seen come up on this forum.
•   There are very few examples that I can think of where batteries are subjected to a single constant drain until they are completely exhausted (some exceptions would be things like wall clocks, led alarm clocks, etc. – even items like remotes, computer mice & keyboards are only draining power when used?)These generally last for long periods of time anyway so not really worth measuring?
•   There have been a lot of references to “dead” batteries – when is a battery dead as opposed to being flat? Is there actually a point measurable when a battery is classified dead? To me, even a flat battery will have some energy left – whether it’s useable in a particular device is another story.
•   Voltage cut offs versus current cut offs – if an electronic device has a particular voltage cut off when it stops working and there is still some usable energy in the batteries, is it possible to trick that device into restarting by artificially raising the voltage while the remaining energy / current remains the same?
•   Self recovery – in my experience, batteries placed under a constant or one off heavy load will recover some of their voltage and energy when the load ceases – how do you build this into your analysis (for example, even the batteries I used in the torch tests recovered and were able to run the torches again after about an hour – 2 of them were up to 1.38 volts after dropping down to less than 1 volt)
•   A few of my mates are engineers – mostly civil and construction – they can be fucken weirdos at times (by their own admission) – why is it that you electrical mob are able to take this to a whole new level?
•   Here’s a thought or concept – there are so many people out there having a real go at developing disruptive new technology – some will succeed , some will fail dismally  – why not use your collective knowledge and talent to engage with them and assist where you can or steer them in the right direction if they are on the wrong track – you will feel so much better than joining together to belittle and ridicule them because they don’t quite come up to your perceived standards of how things should be – just a thought?

Anyway, this is my last comment on the subject but I’m sure you lot will be carrying on about it for eons to come. Any future tests or dealings I have regarding Batteroo will be kept totally to myself and out of the public sphere, there’s just too much vindictiveness out there for my liking.

All the best, Wayne.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BravoV on November 27, 2016, 02:53:32 pm

Quote from: Revive Batteries on November 27, 2016, 02:34:43 pm

Post 1
This is the 1st time I’ve ever posted on a blog so I don’t know if I’ve done it correctly – I’m sure you will let me know.

Based on the amount of bullshit being spread about on this forum about me, I thought I might put my 2 bobs worth in and try to clear some things up. I’m going to do 2 posts and then you’ll never hear from me again.
Firstly, there seems to be a lot of speculation about me, who I am, what my business is all about and what my motives are etc. etc.etc. (some tosser even did a google map screen shot of my house with my mobile workshop trailer out the front and made a big deal about it? For fucks sakes – get your hand off your dick and re-focus on the important things in your life).
The only reason I’m even bothering to do this is because a lot of you have been seriously questioning my honesty and integrity (think about it for a minute – everything you say and infer on the internet stays there for others to find – why fucken do it if it’s not legit?)
Anyway, here it is:
•   What do I know about electrical engineering or physics? – 2 fifth’s of fuck all.
•   What is my background – got kicked out of university in 1977 for being disruptive and questioning too many things – went into retail – 23 years later after travelling the country and being in some senior management roles I decided to try something different – spent 12 years in a high end pearling company managing their production and distribution facilities and made a shitload of coin – pulled the pin in 2012 and started a hobby business reconditioning batteries.
•   What do I know about batteries – only what I taught myself – in 2007 we bought 20 acres about 1 hour out of Darwin and I decided to design and build a completely off grid house myself – it’s about 60% done – no fancy plans – just make it up as you go – that included a solar system and batteries – it now runs perfectly on second hand reconditioned batteries. (That’s where I was this weekend – drinking beer and having a fat time with my missus and mates)
•   I spend a lot of time looking for interesting and unusual products that may be worth selling – eg. I’m now the Aussie agent for Trollbridge24 (electrical, you may be interested in checking it out) – also Facecradle (another crowd funding product  I’m hoping to stock in our Newsagency – it’s a ripper – check it out)
•   I’m not big on the internet or how things on there work – it took me over an hour to work out how to put the torch tests and photos on facebook – but I do know how to find things and research them(check out my website and facebook – pretty average).

Why did I write that rude email to Dave?
Simple really: I made one comment on Indiegogo to say that I’d received my batteroo order and that they do increase the voltage of batteries – next minute everybody’s flogging the shit out of me? – this blog, emails, phone calls – WTF – and then to top it off, Dave back door’s me with an email offering to buy them all at some inflated price.
I’m not some dumb gullible fuck! (Although some of my mates might disagree but most of them are tossers anyway).

The next post will be about my dealings with Batteroo.

All the best, Wayne.

Quote from: Revive Batteries on November 27, 2016, 02:45:32 pm

Post 2
So in the last week or so since I made a simple comment on Indiegogo, there a veritable shitload of experts on this forum who have decided they know exactly what my dealings have been and will be with Batteroo.
Let me clarify it for you – 100% up front for the record – no fucken bullshit!

1.   In about July last year, I stumbled across the Batteriser Indiegogo campaign and given my interest in batteries it looked quite interesting.
2.   I did a heap of research – I saw all the negative stuff – including this blog and all the you tube videos ( I could clearly understand what the scepticism was about)– I also researched all the individuals involved in the project (they seemed to be quite reputable people with wide ranging professional careers).
3.   I also tried to figure out what could be in it for them to scam a few hundred grand out of some Indiegogo supporters (or why they actually put it on there in the 1st place?) – it wouldn’t even cover a small % of the funds it would take to get this thing developed and to market.
4.   WTF – I decided to order 4 x AA packs and check it out – cost was US$35 plus $15 shipping – Total $50 (By the way –I have now recouped my $50 thanks to Lab Spokane on this blog – thanks for keeping your word even though you thought I was bullshitting about having them)
5.   In November last year I started hounding them about being a potential reseller in the Northern Territory – I never got any responses but kept trying – in April this year I got an email back and that resulted in a conference call to have a discussion – it was agreed that if things worked out that I could be a reseller / distributor for the product in my state – no firm commitments by either side until I had received and tested the product. (For the record – I have never seen, met or talked to Bob – these were senior managers in the company)
6.   Since then there have been a few emails – mostly updates regarding the delays and the trademark lawsuits filed by Energizer which set them back a long way (and a lot of money – why would Energizer sue them if there was no chance it would work?).
7.   In October, I went to California to go to the Desert Trip concert (how could I miss it with Bob Dylan, Rolling Stones, Neil Young, Paul McArtney, The Who & Roger Waters all at the same event? – fuck it was good). Anyway, because we were driving past, I arranged to stop in and see the people from Batteroo – we were supposed to have lunch but we were late so just had a look around the office.
8.   I was a bit surprised they were housed in a South Korea Telecom building – I later found out that this building is funded by SK Telecom to house up and coming tech start ups that they think have potential (I guess they do their homework on who gets in?)
9.   Our 2 friends were left in the car so my wife and I could not stay too long – we had a good look through all the offices and were shown around by 2 of the senior managers – we saw some admin people and some people doing testing etc. We were shown how the Batteriser increased the voltage on a number of batteries and also saw some gadgets running with the sleeves on that would not run with the sleeves off. We also discussed how I could be a reseller in the Northern Territory.
10.   One thing that has been made clear all along is that my potential market is very small and their focus is more about launching in the US and other larger markets so I’m a small fish in a big ocean. I was the one pushing them.
11.   I left a comment on Indiegogo when I got back to Aus – you’ve all seen it and some have had a go at me about it.
12.   Then I received my Indiegogo order last week and left another comment – which has lead to all this shit.(I don’t know if I got bumped up the list or not – as far as I know they are shipping based on where people are in the queue) 
13.   Why did I do the tests on the LED torches? Simple: they were the only fucken AA devices I could find around the house that would drain relatively quickly. (Who wants to wait around for a year to see how the batteries go in the wall clock or remote control – everything else I have is AAA and I never ordered any – my own fucken fault – I do have some AAA samples coming now though)
14.   So what’s my stand on all this? I don’t know! I’ve bought some AA products from Kmart to try them out next week and see what happens.

I’m sure all you experts are totally correct in the highly technical details of what you assume the product to be and you may well be 100% correct. I’m looking at it more from a practical viewpoint and whether there actually is some obvious benefit to the average consumer and whether it is a viable product. If for some reason there are dishonest intentions by the principles in this Company, it will come out very quickly and no doubt be dealt with by the applicable authorities.

One thing’s for sure, unless I’m 100% convinced, I won’t add it to my portfolio.

As you can see by now, I’m no expert in electronics but I do have a couple of points / questions that I have not seen come up on this forum.
•   There are very few examples that I can think of where batteries are subjected to a single constant drain until they are completely exhausted (some exceptions would be things like wall clocks, led alarm clocks, etc. – even items like remotes, computer mice & keyboards are only draining power when used?)These generally last for long periods of time anyway so not really worth measuring?
•   There have been a lot of references to “dead” batteries – when is a battery dead as opposed to being flat? Is there actually a point measurable when a battery is classified dead? To me, even a flat battery will have some energy left – whether it’s useable in a particular device is another story.
•   Voltage cut offs versus current cut offs – if an electronic device has a particular voltage cut off when it stops working and there is still some usable energy in the batteries, is it possible to trick that device into restarting by artificially raising the voltage while the remaining energy / current remains the same?
•   Self recovery – in my experience, batteries placed under a constant or one off heavy load will recover some of their voltage and energy when the load ceases – how do you build this into your analysis (for example, even the batteries I used in the torch tests recovered and were able to run the torches again after about an hour – 2 of them were up to 1.38 volts after dropping down to less than 1 volt)
•   A few of my mates are engineers – mostly civil and construction – they can be fucken weirdos at times (by their own admission) – why is it that you electrical mob are able to take this to a whole new level?
•   Here’s a thought or concept – there are so many people out there having a real go at developing disruptive new technology – some will succeed , some will fail dismally  – why not use your collective knowledge and talent to engage with them and assist where you can or steer them in the right direction if they are on the wrong track – you will feel so much better than joining together to belittle and ridicule them because they don’t quite come up to your perceived standards of how things should be – just a thought?

Anyway, this is my last comment on the subject but I’m sure you lot will be carrying on about it for eons to come. Any future tests or dealings I have regarding Batteroo will be kept totally to myself and out of the public sphere, there’s just too much vindictiveness out there for my liking.

All the best, Wayne.

Quoted & secured.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on November 27, 2016, 03:02:47 pm

Wayne, you are reacting a bit emotional, but it is understandable because of the reaction of Dave's crowd :) But if you want to know the obvious benefit to the average consumer and whether it is a viable product, you should really send Dave some sleeves. He can do all sorts of tests and even summarize in simple words if it has some benefit to the average consumer. See for example his playlists and the video comments to judge if he is competent enough to do the tests:
https://www.youtube.com/user/EEVblog/playlists (https://www.youtube.com/user/EEVblog/playlists)
The "Solar Power Systems" playlist might be even interesting for your solar cell buildings, and the "Batteries & Charging" playlist for your business.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on November 27, 2016, 03:08:27 pm

That cleared up some things. :D

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on November 27, 2016, 03:31:13 pm

Quote from: Revive Batteries on November 27, 2016, 02:45:32 pm

(and a lot of money – why would Energizer sue them if there was no chance it would work?).

People protecting trademarks just react if the name is anything like theirs, especially if it's in a related field. It's got nothing to do with practicality, it's all to do with the name.

Two examples:

I was a non-executive director of the London Internet Exchange, more often referred to as LINX. We made a registered trademark application for both names. The London Stock Exchange put in a formal objection simply because of the two word similarity, both words being descriptive of what we did - we won that one.

I also used to be a tech journalist. Any journalist will tell you that if they described something as "the Rolls Royce of X", where X was the product category, that a few days after publication they would get a cease and dissident letter from Rolls Royce's lawyers. They do this, not because they really care whether you use them as the touchstone of perfection, but because they need to be able to prove that they have taken steps to defend their trademark in case of future serious infringement that results in a court case.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on November 27, 2016, 03:38:49 pm

Quote from: BravoV on November 27, 2016, 02:53:32 pm

Quoted & secured.

And some people wonder why Wayne thinks we're a bunch of dicks. That really was unnecessary. If you genuinely thought that there was some possibility that Wayne would come back and 'tamper' with his post by editing it, then you could have found a way of quoting all of it for security without making such a confrontational remark.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on November 27, 2016, 04:13:59 pm

Quote from: Revive Batteries on November 27, 2016, 02:34:43 pm

got kicked out of university in 1977 for being disruptive and questioning too many things

This sounds very dramatic but i have problems believing universities kick students out for asking questions

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on November 27, 2016, 04:33:26 pm

Quote from: Revive Batteries on November 27, 2016, 02:34:43 pm

Post 1
This is the 1st time I’ve ever posted on a blog so I don’t know if I’ve done it correctly – I’m sure you will let me know.

Based on the amount of bullshit......

.

Thanks Wayne, for taking the time to respond.

I agree with a comment made earlier that the best way to proceed and avoid any more controversy and misunderstanding is to send a Batteroo sleeve across to Dave for a comprehensive and honest evaluation so that the performance characteristics of the sleeves can be known. This would also be of benefit to you in deciding whether or not you should become a re-seller.

The main reason there is so much skepticism over this product is because Batteroo have made incredible and inconsistent performance claims for their magic sleeves but have not published any specifications which tends to make people suspicious.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 27, 2016, 04:40:37 pm

Quote from: Cerebus on November 27, 2016, 03:38:49 pm

Quote from: BravoV on November 27, 2016, 02:53:32 pm

Quoted & secured.

And some people wonder why Wayne thinks we're a bunch of dicks. That really was unnecessary. If you genuinely thought that there was some possibility that Wayne would come back and 'tamper' with his post by editing it, then you could have found a way of quoting all of it for security without making such a confrontational remark.

Yep. Totally unnecessary.

Wayne,

Thanks for writing.

The thing you're missing is that the anger you're seeing is because Batteroo are a bunch of lying fraudsters. This thing is 100% a scam. Snake oil of the very highest purity. They're taking people's money under false pretenses and that makes people angry.

Secondly, Bob has been making claims about shipping for a year and a half so when ONE box of batterisers turns up at somebody's house it's natural that the spotlight turns on them.

That one person, the guy who received the very first (and only) box of Batterisers, was you. You won the Batteriser lottery.

So ... I'm going to say one thing and I hope you'll listen:

Please stand back a few yards and look at who Dave(the guy who runs EEVBLOG) is. He's a bloke who's freely made 1000+ educational videos for Youtube and because of them has becaome a highly respected member of the electronics community.

He's totally legit, he doesn't bullshit. He's your kind of guy.

Take a look at a few randomly chose videos of his and decide for yourself what sort of person he is.

The very, very best thing you could possibly do right now is post a couple of batterisers to Dave. EEVBLOG Dave.

Why would you do that? Because Batteroo are a bunch of lying conmen who are taking people's money under false pretenses, that's why.

Batteriser doesn't work! I can say that with the same certainty as saying "2+2 doesn't make 5".

But... Bob is busy taking people's money under false pretenses by claiming that "2+2=8".

Thanks for making it this far.

Now, to answer a few questions:

Quote from: Revive Batteries on November 27, 2016, 02:45:32 pm

I’m sure all you experts are totally correct in the highly technical details of what you assume the product to be and you may well be 100% correct. I’m looking at it more from a practical viewpoint and whether there actually is some obvious benefit to the average consumer and whether it is a viable product. If for some reason there are dishonest intentions by the principles in this Company, it will come out very quickly and no doubt be dealt with by the applicable authorities.

First of all, Batteriser is just a DC boost converter. You can buy them on eBay for 20 cents. Batteroo haven't invented anything, they just made a very small one.

The "technical details" aren't assumed by us, they're known with 100% certainty.

We can measure the amount of power in a battery. We can put it in a device until the device stops working and measure the power left in the battery afterwards (usually a couple of percent). We don't need a batteriser in our hands for that, we can be 100% sure Batteriser isn't going to make batteries last longer.

The only question is "How bad is Batteriser, how much power loss is there in Batteriser's DC converter?" (miniaturization has a cost in efficiency). That's it.

Quote from: Revive Batteries on November 27, 2016, 02:45:32 pm

•   There are very few examples that I can think of where batteries are subjected to a single constant drain until they are completely exhausted (some exceptions would be things like wall clocks, led alarm clocks, etc. – even items like remotes, computer mice & keyboards are only draining power when used?)These generally last for long periods of time anyway so not really worth measuring?

Doesn't matter. The total number of available electrons in a battery is constant. You can't get more than that. If devices are pulling (eg.) 95% of the electrons out of a battery then nothing Batteroo or anybody else can do will get more than the remaining 5%. That's physics (and it works).

Quote from: Revive Batteries on November 27, 2016, 02:45:32 pm

•   There have been a lot of references to “dead” batteries – when is a battery dead as opposed to being flat? Is there actually a point measurable when a battery is classified dead? To me, even a flat battery will have some energy left – whether it’s useable in a particular device is another story.

It's very hard to get every last electron out of a battery. They'll always recover a tiny bit if you leave them long enough. The confusion comes from measuring the voltage when there's no load applied to them - the reading you get will always be false (see next question).

Quote from: Revive Batteries on November 27, 2016, 02:45:32 pm

•   Self recovery – in my experience, batteries placed under a constant or one off heavy load will recover some of their voltage and energy when the load ceases – how do you build this into your analysis (for example, even the batteries I used in the torch tests recovered and were able to run the torches again after about an hour – 2 of them were up to 1.38 volts after dropping down to less than 1 volt)

What you're seeing is called "Equivalent Series Resistance" ('ESR') by engineers.

Imagine there's a resistor connected to the output terminal of every battery ever made. That's ESR.

ESR increases as a battery is used up, that's why you see the voltage go down (inside the battery it's still 1.5V but you see less at the terminals).

The voltage you see at the terminals depends on the load being applied to the battery. That's why measuring battery voltage with no load is pointless. If you leave it long enough it'll go back to 1.5V. That doesn't mean there's magically more electrons available, it just means the chemicals have evened out a bit internally. As soon as you apply a load the voltage will drop rapidly back to where it was.

Quote from: Revive Batteries on November 27, 2016, 02:45:32 pm

•   Voltage cut offs versus current cut offs – if an electronic device has a particular voltage cut off when it stops working and there is still some usable energy in the batteries, is it possible to trick that device into restarting by artificially raising the voltage while the remaining energy / current remains the same?

Yes, but most devices are designed with as low a cutoff as possible. The number of devices where that line of thinking is worthwhile is very, very, very small.

Quote from: Revive Batteries on November 27, 2016, 02:45:32 pm

•   A few of my mates are engineers – mostly civil and construction – they can be fucken weirdos at times (by their own admission) – why is it that you electrical mob are able to take this to a whole new level?

I don't know exactly who contacted you but imagine there was 100,000 of your mates at a party and you attracted the very worst of them ... it wouldn't be good, right?

That's probably the electrical engineers you just met.

Quote from: Revive Batteries on November 27, 2016, 02:45:32 pm

•   Here’s a thought or concept – there are so many people out there having a real go at developing disruptive new technology – some will succeed , some will fail dismally  – why not use your collective knowledge and talent to engage with them and assist where you can or steer them in the right direction if they are on the wrong track – you will feel so much better than joining together to belittle and ridicule them because they don’t quite come up to your perceived standards of how things should be – just a thought?

There's really nothing for Batteroo to succeed at.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 27, 2016, 04:49:30 pm

Sounds like the Wayne story is over, my guess is he is a man of his word and will not post again.  Maybe he will update them by Modifying them.

I enjoyed driving by his house via Google.  The pearling thing sounds dreadful  (Edit - took out link about this)
I never heard of pearling before so I had to look it up. 
Loved the discussion on tosser.  I like the word and wished we used it.  Back to waiting for the next customer. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amirm on November 27, 2016, 05:26:03 pm

Wayne, thanks for the story.  But all we want to know is why you didn't want to send a sample to Dave to test.  Just one out of the few you have.  It could be a loan and you would get it back.  Nothing in all that you have written explains this.  You say you want to know if this works.  Well, that would be the way: loan one to your countryman to test.

To give some solid motivation here, I will pay you $100 for a one week loan of a single sleeve to Dave.  It is the fastest way to make a buck and help with your solar off-grid project.

What say you???  Just contact Dave via email and let him know you are doing it and allow him to send me your email address and I will paypal the money.

Edit: oh, Dave needs to advise if he needs more than one to test.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 27, 2016, 05:40:35 pm

Quote from: amirm on November 27, 2016, 05:26:03 pm

To give some solid motivation here, I will pay you $100 for a one week loan of a single sleeve to Dave.  It is the fastest way to make a buck and help with your solar off-grid project.

I'm guessing LabSpokane would be the best person to approach Wayne with that sort of offer. I'm sure he'd part with a couple of them for $100.

PS: Wayne, if you need any help with an off-grid project then this is a good place to ask.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on November 27, 2016, 05:42:29 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 27, 2016, 04:40:37 pm

It's very hard to get every last electron out of a battery. They'll always recover a tiny bit if you leave them long enough. The confusion comes from measuring the voltage when there's no load applied to them - the reading you get will always be false (see next question).

It is indeed very hard to get electrons out of a battery at all without having them sneaking back in at the other terminal :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 27, 2016, 05:48:03 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on November 27, 2016, 05:42:29 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 27, 2016, 04:40:37 pm

It's very hard to get every last electron out of a battery. They'll always recover a tiny bit if you leave them long enough. The confusion comes from measuring the voltage when there's no load applied to them - the reading you get will always be false (see next question).

It is indeed very hard to get electrons out of a battery at all without having them sneaking back in at the other terminal :)

The real trick is to get them to go around several times...  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on November 27, 2016, 06:18:55 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 27, 2016, 05:48:03 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on November 27, 2016, 05:42:29 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 27, 2016, 04:40:37 pm

It's very hard to get every last electron out of a battery. They'll always recover a tiny bit if you leave them long enough. The confusion comes from measuring the voltage when there's no load applied to them - the reading you get will always be false (see next question).

It is indeed very hard to get electrons out of a battery at all without having them sneaking back in at the other terminal :)

The real trick is to get them to go around several times...  ;)

They do do that, but kind of slowly, and you really can't be sure if any particular electron has been around the second time as well, it could be another identical one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 27, 2016, 06:23:01 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 27, 2016, 05:40:35 pm

Quote from: amirm on November 27, 2016, 05:26:03 pm

To give some solid motivation here, I will pay you $100 for a one week loan of a single sleeve to Dave.  It is the fastest way to make a buck and help with your solar off-grid project.

I'm guessing LabSpokane would be the best person to approach Wayne with that sort of offer. I'm sure he'd part with a couple of them for $100.

PS: Wayne, if you need any help with an off-grid project then this is a good place to ask.

What Wayne has are clearly the pre-production samples, and by the data already shown, clearly do not work as intended.

Wayne has already said no, and he is not motivated by money. If he should change his mind, we can talk about pooling some funds to compensate him for sending a few to Dave. It could be interesting, but will solve little since they are not production units with the "custom" IC. At least one of them needs to have the potting removed in order to access the component side of the PCB.

Once again, I'm going to urge all participants here to remain respectful.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on November 27, 2016, 06:38:05 pm

Absolutely, I would like to see even a preproduction sample, and if potted a quick postal trip to Mike or Fraser would result in them going back with a full set of Xray images, totally untouched.

The idea is sound for the product, just the actual general purpose implementation is not really possible to do in the form factor and with it still complying with the full range of uses a single AA or AAA cell has the ability to be used in, with currents ranging from microamps to tens of amperes all drawn from the same nominal cell size. As a retofit for inferior design on equipment it is a great idea, but a real niche product then.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 6581 on November 27, 2016, 07:32:22 pm

Thank you Wayne for posting. I found your story and background interesting and even though I hope you'd reconsider cooperative testing with Dave J. - I can totally understand your sentiments - I think you deserved a more respectful "treatment" than you got (it's kind of unfair to draw anyone to anything they're not interested to participate in) - and personally in your shoes, I'd have been stressed and perhaps a bit angry. Thanks again for posting on EEblog forums.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on November 27, 2016, 08:44:28 pm

Quote from: SeanB on November 27, 2016, 06:38:05 pm

Absolutely, I would like to see even a preproduction sample, and if potted a quick postal trip to Mike or Fraser would result in them going back with a full set of Xray images, totally untouched.

Just be careful how far you go disclosing BatterPoo's IP.
Testing, reviewing and evaluating product in the wild is fine, but X-Ray and reverse engineering of pre-pro samples may put you in some deep doo-doo (or is that poo-poo?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: johndoe123 on November 27, 2016, 09:24:32 pm

Quote

5.   In November last year I started hounding them about being a potential reseller in the Northern Territory – I never got any responses but kept trying – in April this year I got an email back and that resulted in a conference call to have a discussion 

If you have to make a down payment, just make sure the product has been shipped to several other resellers first and the product is established. Otherwise, chances are good that you never receive the product or get your money back!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 27, 2016, 09:54:24 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on November 27, 2016, 03:02:47 pm

Wayne, you are reacting a bit emotional, but it is understandable because of the reaction of Dave's crowd :) But if you want to know the obvious benefit to the average consumer and whether it is a viable product, you should really send Dave some sleeves. He can do all sorts of tests and even summarize in simple words if it has some benefit to the average consumer.

I've asked Wayne again about getting a few of his units, but no response. Doesn't sound like he wants to part with them for whatever reason, and that's fine.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 27, 2016, 09:56:01 pm

Quote from: SeanB on November 27, 2016, 06:38:05 pm

Absolutely, I would like to see even a preproduction sample, and if potted a quick postal trip to Mike or Fraser would result in them going back with a full set of Xray images, totally untouched.

Xray shots aren't going to show anything useful, surely?
The potting and any chip encapsulate needs to be dissolved to get a good die photo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 27, 2016, 09:58:07 pm

Quote from: SL4P on November 27, 2016, 08:44:28 pm

Quote from: SeanB on November 27, 2016, 06:38:05 pm

Absolutely, I would like to see even a preproduction sample, and if potted a quick postal trip to Mike or Fraser would result in them going back with a full set of Xray images, totally untouched.

Just be careful how far you go disclosing BatterPoo's IP.
Testing, reviewing and evaluating product in the wild is fine, but X-Ray and reverse engineering of pre-pro samples may put you in some deep doo-doo (or is that poo-poo?)

Nope, reverse engineering a product for educational and review purposes is just fine.
No encryption is being broken, there is no intent for money to be made etc.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 27, 2016, 10:00:56 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 27, 2016, 05:40:35 pm

PS: Wayne, if you need any help with an off-grid project then this is a good place to ask.

We have a whole section on renewable energy:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 27, 2016, 10:06:07 pm

Latest from IGG comments. There is a call for an unboxing video. That'd get a fair few hits on YouTube I reckon, especially if they sent over one to Dave and he linked back to that video to say "thank you!" An excellent promo opportunity for anyone out there who is among the first to get a Batteriser!!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=274044;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 27, 2016, 10:06:32 pm

Quote from: amirm on November 27, 2016, 05:26:03 pm

Edit: oh, Dave needs to advise if he needs more than one to test.

I could get by on one unit of course, that would allow me to measure the efficiency performance curves under all current loads (probably the first thing I'd do).
Ideally I'd solder wires onto the unit to do that, but could do it without damage if I had to.
Two units would be better as a lot of products are 2xAA

And of course if I had my own unit one would be depotted (as much as I am able, I'm not set up to do that sort of chemical stuff)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 27, 2016, 10:15:00 pm

Quote from: quad on November 27, 2016, 10:06:07 pm

Latest from IGG comments. There is a call for an unboxing video. That'd get a fair few hits on YouTube I reckon, especially if they sent over one to Dave and he linked back to that video to say "thank you!" An excellent promo opportunity for anyone out there who is among the first to get a Batteriser!!

ANNOUNCEMENT:

I will pay $100 up front to get my hands on some units, including courier delivery or whatever it takes, plus the revenue from the first video I do (typically $1.50/1000 views). Or I can donate the video ad revenue proceeds to your favourite charity.
I promise to do fair and unbiased testing (people expect nothing less of course)
Obviously some will find their way into my hands eventually, but I don't hold out hope of that being any time soon, as all evidence points to ward the claim of "around 30%" of the backers units shipped according to what they told Wayne being a lie.
It's a shame Wayne didn't take me up on the offer, I could have had them by now.

Offer available only to the first taker.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on November 27, 2016, 10:16:37 pm

Quote from: Revive Batteries on November 27, 2016, 02:45:32 pm

...
Anyway, this is my last comment on the subject
...
All the best, Wayne.

I hope he keeps his word.

He is EXACTLY the target audience for this product.  100%...  Perfect... Match...

You guys should move on.  Might as well be selling Richard Dawkins books at a bible study class. 

If they shipped some to this guy, more might show up.  Hopefully to someone who wasn't pre-screened.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jonovid on November 27, 2016, 10:33:04 pm

Quote

I promise to do fair and unbiased testing (people expect nothing less of course)

more Monkeys ? 

a must see the video, EEVblog #789  if any haven't seen it yet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 27, 2016, 10:55:30 pm

Funny thing here is that Batteroo haven't provided any technical data whatsoever to back their extraordinary claims, although they are producing the Batterisers and even shipping the devices to some individuals. Hopefully Dave will get some Batterisers so that he will be able to provide actual measurement data and numerical facts.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on November 27, 2016, 11:10:59 pm

What's even funnier is that anyone with a little knowledge could have easily tested the viability of the idea for well under $100 on their kitchen table. But rather than doing this, Bob Rhubarb has spent $400,000 dollars (that we know of) of other people's money on tooling and custom chips only to find that the performance falls so far short of his original claims that he is too embarrassed to publish any real test data.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 27, 2016, 11:32:25 pm

Quote from: SL4P on November 27, 2016, 08:44:28 pm

.... may put you in some deep doo-doo (or is that poo-poo?)

"roo-par"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 27, 2016, 11:33:57 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 27, 2016, 09:56:01 pm

Xray shots aren't going to show anything useful, surely?

And what's to see? A tiny inductor, a tiny chip, a tiny capacitor or two. No real information there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 27, 2016, 11:52:15 pm

Quote from: Smokey on November 27, 2016, 10:16:37 pm

I hope he keeps his word.

He is EXACTLY the target audience for this product.  100%...  Perfect... Match...

You guys should move on.  Might as well be selling Richard Dawkins books at a bible study class. 

I don't want to scare Wayne away if he reads this but that's my feeling too. Somebody who wants to live "off-grid" in a distant place. Somebody who took over an hour (by his own admission) to figure out how to upload a photo to facebook. Somebody with only very rudimentary knowledge of electronics. Somebody who wants to make money and will convince himself they work.

Quote from: wayne

why would Energizer sue them if there was no chance it would work?

...somebody who's also into conspiracy theories.

Remember: Dave is in the pay of Big Battery!  (according to Bob)

Quote from: wayne

Why did I write that rude email to Dave?
Simple really: I made one comment on Indiegogo to say that I’d received my batteroo order and that they do increase the voltage of batteries – next minute everybody’s flogging the shit out of me? – this blog, emails, phone calls – WTF – and then to top it off, Dave back door’s me with an email offering to buy them all at some inflated price.

... and somebody who'd actually think that Dave told other people to go and harass him (so he could get his hands on the Golden Batterisers? How does that even work?)

Quote from: wayne

I’m not some dumb gullible fuck!

Quite.

Evil Bob chose well, methinks.

PS: Wayne... just watch a few of Dave's videos at random, particularly the "mailbag" videos. That'll tell you everything you need to know about what sort of person Dave is.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 28, 2016, 12:19:13 am

Shipping summary 28/11/16:

7 reports of receiving Batteriser
1 report of tracking number

If you have a Batteriser right now, you're in a unique position to benefit yourself or your chosen charity financially (see announcement above). Anonymously if you'd prefer.

Of course, this only relevant while a small number of people have Batterisers. Once they go out to even a few more people, there is no doubt they'll make their way to Dave - some people will probably even ship it Express and give it to Dave for free because they want to see the video! (have you seen what people send in to his mailbag?!)

If you have a Batteriser, I urge you to reach out and strike a deal with Dave ASAP

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 28, 2016, 12:56:00 am

Quote from: quad on November 28, 2016, 12:19:13 am

Of course, this only relevant while a small number of people have Batterisers. Once they go out to even a few more people, there is no doubt they'll make their way to Dave - some people will probably even ship it Express and give it to Dave for free because they want to see the video! (have you seen what people send in to his mailbag?!)
If you have a Batteriser, I urge you to reach out and strike a deal with Dave ASAP

I expect a flood of Battrisers to arrive in the Mailbag   ;D
I've gotten quite excited every time I see a pickup card in my PO box recently...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 28, 2016, 01:29:41 am

Again I have made an offer to Wayne, see if he takes it.

He said he might have sent me some originally if he hadn't have seen the personal attacks on the forum, so thanks everyone who did that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on November 28, 2016, 01:54:43 am

[quote author=EEVblog link=topic=48950.msg1079736#msg1079736 date=1480294560
I expect a flood of Battrisers to arrive in the Mailbag   ;D
I've gotten quite excited every time I see a pickup card in my PO box recently...
[/quote]
You could help Boob out here... bring his fantasy to fruition.
Use EIGHT baaterpoos on eight cells, to get eight times the life of a single cell without a sleeve.
(You'll possibly have BatterPoos than he has!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on November 28, 2016, 02:03:51 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 28, 2016, 01:29:41 am

Again I have made an offer to Wayne, see if he takes it.

He said he might have sent me some originally if he hadn't have seen the personal attacks on the forum, so thanks everyone who did that.

He's one to talk, honestly, after what he said to you in his initial email.
I didn't see anything particularly viscous directed at him, and what *was* said only came after his email.

Frankly, I don't think he ever planned on sending you anything. I think he's just saying that now to make you feel bad.

Trust me, the response he received was mild compared to some forums I've seen. He's lucky this isn't 4chan, Reddit or Something Awful.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 28, 2016, 02:16:14 am

Has anyone considered that Wayne might have a NDA with Bob.  Makes sense because Wayne was sent prototypes and Wayne wants to be a distributor.  I do not think it would be a good idea to have prototypes tested.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on November 28, 2016, 02:32:52 am

Dear Wayne. Welcome to the Internet and social media. Guess what, EVERYONE is subject to attack and unjustified abuse !! It's how the beast works !
Many hide behind anonymity, which gives them carte-blanche to spew whatever garbage they like.
Even the most learned engineers here on this site are occasionally subject to it, no-one on the planet is exempt. But I promise you, engineering sites like this are
FAAAR more civil than most !! AND, irrespective of what type of site / forum you visit, IF you go there flinging shlt, especially as a newbie, don't be surprised by what
is returned. That is the same as in RW. Yes, a few inappropriate comments were made, and you'll learn to ignore them or simply post a non-provacative reply.
If you don't grow some balls, and learn from this, I'm afraid social media (forums) are not for you.
And believe it or not, should you come back requiring help on your other projects, very few will hold a grudge (whom you ignore). It's up to you.

Quote from: EEVblog

... He said he might have sent me some originally if he hadn't have seen the personal attacks on the forum, so thanks everyone who did that.

The beast is what it is. He may have sent you some. They may exist. Worst case, if they do exist, we'll have to wait a few more days.
We've waited this long, a few days won't kill us :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: IanB on November 28, 2016, 02:49:49 am

I really don't understand why everyone is so keen to get their hands on one of these things? What is the point?

We know exactly what it can and can't do based on the completely understood science of batteries and boost converters. There is no need to obtain the thing to test its function.

Look, this forum is full of engineers with fully equipped work benches and design experience. Anyone could construct an optimally efficient boost converter that produces a regulated 1.5 V output from an input voltage down to 0.8 V (or near enough). It doesn't have to be small, just efficient. Then this could be used to test the available run time with simulated loads under varying cut-off voltages, with and without the boost converter in the loop.

We know that the Batteriser can't do better than something designed without space constraints, so any such experiment will establish the upper limit on the possible performance of the Batteriser.

I'm starting to think this whole exercise is more like a witch hunt with a crowd baying for blood rather than a search for enlightenment.

This Wayne chap will do very well to stay away. There is no light here, only hot air.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 28, 2016, 02:50:06 am

I, for one, would welcome Wayne to the forums. He's a straight shooter. He's the ONLY person connected to Batteroo who'll speak plain English about what's going on. A pleasant contrast to Bob's "CEO talk".

Can you imagine if it were Bob we were dealing with? He'd take Dave's money, stall for a year and half, cobble up some excuse about a dingo stealing the Batteroos...

If Wayne said he was going to ship them, I'd believe him.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: johndoe123 on November 28, 2016, 02:52:40 am

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on November 28, 2016, 02:42:42 am

Quote from: digsys on November 28, 2016, 02:32:52 am

We've waited this long, a few days won't kill us :-)

I won't kill, but for vloggers and youtubers it might hit where it hurts: the pocket. I'll explain: currently there are no unboxing or analysis videos of Batteriser on YT, and since there is a huge hype around it, expect the first video to have a few million hits. That means money, and a good amount of it.

The second and third video won't get that much attention: the first will always be the first, specially if it appears days before the 2nd, 3rd and so on. This has, therefore, become a race for youtube hits.

Its a bloody batterizer, not the latest Iphone, it may get a few 100k hits but never some millions.
lets say 500k thats 250$, not that much of a deal

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 28, 2016, 02:53:14 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 28, 2016, 01:29:41 am

Again I have made an offer to Wayne, see if he takes it.

He said he might have sent me some originally if he hadn't have seen the personal attacks on the forum, so thanks everyone who did that.

Can't say I blame Wayne.  Some of the crap that was dumped on him was personal and derived completely from speculation.

He seems to me to be a knockabout bloke who has demonstrated his ability to make good in whatever vocation he puts his hand to - and being open-minded, sought to give Batteroo a chance.  While he may not understand the maths and physics, nor have an EE based approach to testing - he does have a functional understanding and is trying to do exactly the same thing as Dave wants to do - CHECK THE BLOODY THINGS OUT!

He may not be able to generate pretty charts or extensive tables - but he will be able to get a pretty good idea on one very simple, grass roots fundamental:  Will it be good enough to sell and survive in the marketplace?

The average punter is NOT going to give a damn about all the academic crap - they are just going to want to know if it's going to work for them.  In that respect, Wayne is a long way ahead of some of the opinion I have seen expressed here.

Branding him a stooge for Bob was not fair - and as far as questioning his 'stop off' at Batteroo HQ on the way to that concert.  Hell - I would have gone to a concert like that if I'd had the time and money!  Stopping off at Batteroo was just being sensible.


Wayne, I would like to encourage you to reconsider sending a sleeve or two to Dave.  Yes, he runs the forum where some crap has been dumped on you - but it was not from him.

Please understand, this is a global forum, with a wide range of members with an extremely wide range of personalities.  If you think you're Civil and Mechanical Engineer friends seem weird at times - when their subject matter is pretty visilbe - then just think what Electrical Engineers could be like, since just about all of their subject matter is invisible and much of it starts getting into quantum physics.


Leave Wayne alone and let the poor bugger do his testing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 28, 2016, 02:58:16 am

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on November 28, 2016, 02:31:23 am

Although that would explain all the conspiracy theories around here (including my own!), it raises the question: Why Wayne?

Seriously?  Are you that blind?

He visited Batteroo and was able to express his interest personally.  He was able to present himself in a positive light and get a rapport happening.  If you are in business, that's the sort of thing that will get you on the short list!

Batteroo know there's a controversy out there - and it's just sensible to release the first devices to people who are likely to have a positive attitude.


Geez ... it's not rocket science.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 28, 2016, 02:58:22 am

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on November 28, 2016, 02:42:42 am

I won't kill, but for vloggers and youtubers it might hit where it hurts: the pocket. I'll explain: currently there are no unboxing or analysis videos of Batteriser on YT, and since there is a huge hype around it, expect the first video to have a few million hits.

Err, no. My best video on this has 230k views.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 28, 2016, 03:02:07 am

Quote from: IanB on November 28, 2016, 02:49:49 am

I'm starting to think this whole exercise is more like a witch hunt with a crowd baying for blood rather than a search for enlightenment.

I think of this like the search for Big Foot.    I think Big Foot will be found before the bats show up

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 28, 2016, 03:02:35 am

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on November 28, 2016, 02:38:22 am

If he wanted to be collaborative, he'd just send the batteriser and be done with it, and perhaps even make a name for his business, like I wrote earlier.

I'm happy to give him and his business a shoutout in the video. Companies have offered to pay thousands of dollars for a mention like that.
His call.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 28, 2016, 03:03:58 am

Quote from: IanB on November 28, 2016, 02:49:49 am

I really don't understand why everyone is so keen to get their hands on one of these things? What is the point?

Because this is the industries biggest soap opera!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 28, 2016, 03:08:34 am

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on November 28, 2016, 02:38:22 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 28, 2016, 01:29:41 am

He said he might have sent me some originally if he hadn't have seen the personal attacks on the forum, so thanks everyone who did that.

Saying that now has only one meaning: he wants to put you against your forum members.

BULLSHIT.

He simply grouped everyone here on the EEVblog in the one bucket!  Why should he differentiate?  We are all here with similar interests ... and that is a valid enough reason to lump us together.

For him to get a clear picture of the differing attitudes, he would need to sit down and sift through hundreds of posts - which is something nobody here would do if it was from another forum that was dumping on Dave.


Wayne copped crap from the EEVblog forum - no matter how many members participated - and Dave gets tarnished by that.... which is also unfair.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 28, 2016, 03:16:57 am

Quote from: IanB on November 28, 2016, 02:49:49 am

I really don't understand why everyone is so keen to get their hands on one of these things? What is the point?

Because up until there is a real product that has undergone real testing, the whole subject is academic.

Engineers, physicists, chemists, materials scientists and so on, may have a good handle on a lot of subject matter, but time after time over the years, there are things that have been said were not possible, but have come to be.  Until a real product is put through its paces, the general populace will hold an understandable scepticism of the Engineers' rantings.

As Engineering minds, we should expect the results to be no surprise - but for many, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on November 28, 2016, 03:34:40 am

A lot of people are getting excited over nothing. It's clear Wayne has these early prototypes (he said it himself). How these differ to the "real" Batterisers, no one knows because there is still no confirmation that the final product even exists.

Yes, we all know what the outcome of any tests will be. But even if Dave got hold of an early-Batteriser off Wayne, Bob will be the first to come out with some bullshit story and try and invalidate any tests by claiming that the performance of the prototype is not indicative of the final product (which no one has and probably will never have). That way, he can at least claim that any tests don't prove anything without giving away that he hasn't shipped anything to backers.

That said, to those with a brain, the video will be confirmation of what we've been saying all along. I'd still watch it.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 28, 2016, 03:59:52 am

Quote from: Halcyon on November 28, 2016, 03:34:40 am

Yes, we all know what the outcome of any tests will be. But even if Dave got hold of an early-Batteriser off Wayne, Bob will be the first to come out with some bullshit story and try and invalidate any tests by claiming that the performance of the prototype is not indicative of the final product (which no one has and probably will never have). That way, he can at least claim that any tests don't prove anything without giving away that he hasn't shipped anything to backers.

In that case Bob would be admitting that he lied about shipping them to backers.
Bob did ship these to Wayne in the official final packaging, with the official indiegogo back letter, and marked his pledge as being fulfilled. So according to Bob these are not prototypes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 28, 2016, 04:05:09 am

This is the IGG marked perk shipment.
You wouldn't do that for prototypes.
BTW, I know someone who's order number is in the 10's and it hasn't been delivered yet or even received a shipping or fulfilled email

(http://i.imgur.com/lkxOdKP.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 28, 2016, 04:08:12 am

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on November 28, 2016, 03:47:22 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 28, 2016, 03:03:58 am

Quote from: IanB on November 28, 2016, 02:49:49 am

I really don't understand why everyone is so keen to get their hands on one of these things? What is the point?

Because this is the industries biggest soap opera!

Exactly! It is not about the product itself, because I believe most of us don't give a crap about it. We do, however, need closure! We need to see the last episode, where the good guy finally gets to beat the crap out of the bad guy.

This is looking like those good series on Netflix that don't have the last season yet (Suits, Homeland, House of Cards...), and we are left hanging!

There might be a bit of that - but there are two more aspects that I think are more significant...

The first is vindication for the Engineers.  Let's face it - it's always good to get concrete confirmation, even if we were more than confident in the outcome.

The second is that people will want to have the physical product to see for themselves.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 28, 2016, 04:10:07 am

Actually, I just thought of a third option:  People might just want to have them for a display piece.  It would certainly be an interesting conversation starter!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on November 28, 2016, 09:11:05 am

I was kinda afraid of Necroing but apparently this thread is still alive and well!...

I sure do hope we can get some info on where the prototype were built and (if it exists) the production ones.

That thing in Shenzen about 100+ page back did make me pause in horror... thinking "OMG my company have a factory in Shenzen  :scared:" and given that we did have a record with one failed kickstart project (Anyone know or remember Pirate3D) that got me scared senseless...

Oh well, back to designing and waiting for more soap opera!

PS: I think I remember Boob or Pranky themselves answered in some forum thread... or was it youtube post? anyone can link me to them if you remember it?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 28, 2016, 09:17:59 am

Quote from: Luminax on November 28, 2016, 09:11:05 am

PS: I think I remember Boob or Pranky themselves answered in some forum thread... or was it youtube post? anyone can link me to them if you remember it?

They have never posted in this forum, but we know they read it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on November 28, 2016, 10:12:21 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 28, 2016, 09:17:59 am

Quote from: Luminax on November 28, 2016, 09:11:05 am

PS: I think I remember Boob or Pranky themselves answered in some forum thread... or was it youtube post? anyone can link me to them if you remember it?

They have never posted in this forum, but we know they read it.

Hmmm.... odd.... guess I'll check my history when i get home
Could've sworn I remember some direct communication... or it could be from the Siglent debacle some way back...
 :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on November 28, 2016, 10:38:44 am

The direct comunication was with videos.

Butteriser posted a video.
Dave posted a video showing that the video was full of false claims
Butteriser posted a video trying to disprove Dave.
Dave posted a video showing that the answer video was full off bull s.....
.
.
.
.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 28, 2016, 10:41:06 am

Nobody from Batteroo has posted here - certainly as far as we know.

If there had been, you would not have any doubts.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 28, 2016, 10:44:29 am

Quote from: Luminax on November 28, 2016, 10:12:21 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 28, 2016, 09:17:59 am

Quote from: Luminax on November 28, 2016, 09:11:05 am

PS: I think I remember Boob or Pranky themselves answered in some forum thread... or was it youtube post? anyone can link me to them if you remember it?

They have never posted in this forum, but we know they read it.

Hmmm.... odd.... guess I'll check my history when i get home
Could've sworn I remember some direct communication...

Nah. They made some videos responding to Dave's debunking and referenced a few things that they could only have known from reading these forums.

They've never posted here though (not under their own names, anyway, and I think a fake Batteroo account would last about 10 seconds here).

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on November 28, 2016, 10:48:16 am

Quote from: wilfred on November 28, 2016, 03:16:09 am

Quote from: timb on November 28, 2016, 02:03:51 am

He's one to talk, honestly, after what he said to you in his initial email.
I didn't see anything particularly viscous directed at him, and what *was* said only came after his email.

Frankly, I don't think he ever planned on sending you anything. I think he's just saying that now to make you feel bad.

Trust me, the response he received was mild compared to some forums I've seen. He's lucky this isn't 4chan, Reddit or Something Awful.

I don't know how you'd like to characterise viscous [sic] but you've only just suggested he was lying to Dave. 

I'll take your word the response may be mild compared to other forums. I don't think that is much of an endorsement of a community that ought to be able to rise to a greater standard since it has the technical base to support judgements based on empirical evidence.

I was by coincidence searching on "Henry IV" and the first response page showed this quote.

"We can only reason from what is; we can reason on actualities, but not on possibilities."

If someone was sending the guy death threats or burst into his company's office covered in petroleum jelly and pubes (both things other forums are guilty of) it would be one thing. But nobody here did that.

A few people emailed him, inquiring about the Batterisers he received. A couple of other people called him a mildly inappropriate name, *after* he did the same to Dave.

He's not an innocent victim. He could have simple ignored the emails he got, or told people he didn't want to be contacted. He didn't do that. He could have not attacked Dave, either, but he did...

Keep in mind I'm not defending anyone being rude to him, or anyone else. However, I'm realistic and know that, no matter where you go, there will *always* be people who are immature and rude. Always. That's life.

Finally, I didn't say he was lying. What I said was, that in my opinion, the offer was never genuine. As someone who's studied psychology, it's pretty clear (to me) what he's doing. It's a form of splitting. He's trying to position Dave against his forum members (us).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on November 28, 2016, 11:11:19 am

Yeah, I checked my history, it was the Siglent ebay thingamabob a little way back.
<conspiracy bait>Wonder how I got those two confused</conspiracy bait>
 |O
Guess my brain/memory needs a defrag or better yet... a Batteriser!Batteroo!
Anyway, carry on  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 28, 2016, 11:37:11 am

Quote from: timb on November 28, 2016, 10:48:16 am

If someone was sending the guy death threats or burst into his company's office covered in petroleum jelly and pubes (both things other forums are guilty of) it would be one thing. But nobody here did that.

Maybe it's just me but ... I don't think anything said in these forums warrants him taking that level of offense. Not with him being an internationally-travelled Australian potty-mouth and all. Judging by his music tastes he's no youngster, either.

OTOH his contact details were published here and we don't know what could have been said to him in private. I think something might have been said there. Anybody want to 'fess up to contacting him personally?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 28, 2016, 12:21:20 pm

Quote from: Brumby on November 28, 2016, 10:41:06 am

Nobody from Batteroo has posted here - certainly as far as we know.
If there had been, you would not have any doubts.

Actually, there was a sock puppet account at one point. I think they caught on that we had caught on and they disappeared pretty quick.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 28, 2016, 12:24:16 pm

Quote from: Barny on November 28, 2016, 10:38:44 am

The direct comunication was with videos.
Butteriser posted a video.
Dave posted a video showing that the video was full of false claims
Butteriser posted a video trying to disprove Dave.
Dave posted a video showing that the answer video was full off bull s.....
.
.
.

I never did do that response to their long "technical" video. My enthusiasm died when they mentioned the snail.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on November 28, 2016, 01:34:56 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 28, 2016, 12:21:20 pm

Actually, there was a sock puppet account at one point. I think they caught on that we had caught on and they disappeared pretty quick.

Was that the "Davey_Jonez" ones or was there another one I forgot?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 28, 2016, 01:41:04 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 28, 2016, 12:21:20 pm

Quote from: Brumby on November 28, 2016, 10:41:06 am

Nobody from Batteroo has posted here - certainly as far as we know.
If there had been, you would not have any doubts.

Actually, there was a sock puppet account at one point. I think they caught on that we had caught on and they disappeared pretty quick.

I must have blinked at the wrong time...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 28, 2016, 02:21:08 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 28, 2016, 03:59:52 am

In that case Bob would be admitting that he lied about shipping them to backers.
Bob did ship these to Wayne in the official final packaging, with the official indiegogo back letter, and marked his pledge as being fulfilled. So according to Bob these are not prototypes.

Lying solves everything: "Oh golly gosh! The intern at Batteroo must have sent Wayne the prototypes by mistake! I apologize for the mix-up and we will be sending Wayne a fresh set of the production units and a 9V Batteroo!"

Which reminders me... what ever happened to that 9V version? Are they going to ship that separately after the fact?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on November 28, 2016, 02:57:43 pm

 I really wonder about the 9V one - where are they going to fit it on the battery? I have plenty of devices that use 9V batteries that have a fairly solid bit that's part of the battery compartment that comes right between the terminals. These would be devices that have fixed contacts instead of using a battery snap. Clip to the top, with exposed contacts on top, with 4 traces running down the sleeve to the electronics on the bottom, 2 feeding from the battery, 2 going to the contacts to supply power to the device? If so, I have the perfect torture test device, it has a rather solid spring at the bottom of the battery, two heavy strips of metal. The fit is tight - some brands of the 9.6V rechargeable types do not fit as they slightly exceed the 9V RECT form factor, maybe by 1mm or less. And of all things that could USE a boost converter like the Batterizer... to the point where I have considered building my own and fitting it inside the case somewhere. Or fitting 2 AA plus boost converter for longer life. Current draw isn't high, but the thing is very sensitive to voltage - when it gets much below 8.2V it gets erratic and stops working completely shortly thereafter.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jonovid on November 28, 2016, 03:06:19 pm

lol  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on November 28, 2016, 03:53:16 pm

Quote from: rrinker on November 28, 2016, 02:57:43 pm

The fit is tight - some brands of the 9.6V rechargeable types do not fit as they slightly exceed the 9V RECT form factor, maybe by 1mm or less. And of all things that could USE a boost converter like the Batterizer... to the point where I have considered building my own and fitting it inside the case somewhere. Or fitting 2 AA plus boost converter for longer life. Current draw isn't high, but the thing is very sensitive to voltage - when it gets much below 8.2V it gets erratic and stops working completely shortly thereafter.

You can get 9V batteries with a build-in boost converter.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on November 28, 2016, 04:13:31 pm

 I did not know that. Never saw such a thing. A quick Google isn't finding me anything, other than some simply 3V to V boost circuits.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on November 28, 2016, 05:20:34 pm

Quote from: rrinker on November 28, 2016, 04:13:31 pm

I did not know that. Never saw such a thing. A quick Google isn't finding me anything, other than some simply 3V to V boost circuits.

Look for usb charged LiIon 9V batteries. I have a review in queue with one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on November 28, 2016, 06:54:55 pm

 I'm assuming the 800mAh ones I found on Banggood are utter bullshit, seeing as how all the rest are a more reasonable 400mAh. Now, as long as the truly are the proper 9V size so they fit in my device, these are by far the best option. Higher capacity than any of the older rechargeable types. A huge complaint is how these devices (it's a wireless handheld throttle control fro model railroads) chew through batteries. These could be the sort of thing needed, IF they fit - as I said, the battery space is very tight and some brands of NiMH and NiCad batteries simply do not fit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on November 28, 2016, 07:12:17 pm

Quote from: rrinker on November 28, 2016, 06:54:55 pm

I'm assuming the 800mAh ones I found on Banggood are utter bullshit, seeing as how all the rest are a more reasonable 400mAh.

It is probably the internal LiIon cell that is 800mAh. The one I have in queue will not get a good review, one of the cells only has half capacity.
The output voltage is close to 9.5 volt during the full discharge.
You will in a couple of weeks (I hope) find the review here: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries9V/Common9VIndividualTest%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries9V/Common9VIndividualTest%20UK.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 28, 2016, 07:50:46 pm

Quote from: timb on November 28, 2016, 10:48:16 am

Quote from: wilfred on November 28, 2016, 03:16:09 am

Quote from: timb on November 28, 2016, 02:03:51 am

He's one to talk, honestly, after what he said to you in his initial email.
I didn't see anything particularly viscous directed at him, and what *was* said only came after his email.

Frankly, I don't think he ever planned on sending you anything. I think he's just saying that now to make you feel bad.

Trust me, the response he received was mild compared to some forums I've seen. He's lucky this isn't 4chan, Reddit or Something Awful.

I don't know how you'd like to characterise viscous [sic] but you've only just suggested he was lying to Dave. 

I'll take your word the response may be mild compared to other forums. I don't think that is much of an endorsement of a community that ought to be able to rise to a greater standard since it has the technical base to support judgements based on empirical evidence.

I was by coincidence searching on "Henry IV" and the first response page showed this quote.

"We can only reason from what is; we can reason on actualities, but not on possibilities."

If someone was sending the guy death threats or burst into his company's office covered in petroleum jelly and pubes (both things other forums are guilty of) it would be one thing. But nobody here did that.

A few people emailed him, inquiring about the Batterisers he received. A couple of other people called him a mildly inappropriate name, *after* he did the same to Dave.

He's not an innocent victim. He could have simple ignored the emails he got, or told people he didn't want to be contacted. He didn't do that. He could have not attacked Dave, either, but he did...

Keep in mind I'm not defending anyone being rude to him, or anyone else. However, I'm realistic and know that, no matter where you go, there will *always* be people who are immature and rude. Always. That's life.

Finally, I didn't say he was lying. What I said was, that in my opinion, the offer was never genuine. As someone who's studied psychology, it's pretty clear (to me) what he's doing. It's a form of splitting. He's trying to position Dave against his forum members (us).

It is well past time for this to stop.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 28, 2016, 09:42:17 pm

I agree.

Besides, I don't believe this so-called 'psychological' assessment is valid for an internet setting.  In a face-to-face gathering of real people, maybe - but not here.  Wayne has just lumped us all together.  Simple as that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on November 28, 2016, 09:55:45 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane

  It is well past time for this to stop. 

DISAGREE ! Somewhere out there is a scammer (many in fact), and it is up to us as a learned community to hunt them down, even until hell freezes over.
There are WAY too many bogus campaigns out there, fleecing millions $s from well intentioned public. I for one, will never give up.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on November 28, 2016, 10:23:20 pm

I don't see how continuing any conversation about Wayne will be productive toward anything you just said.

Yes, there's plenty of scams, bogus campaigns, 'facts' that are just plain wrong.  Better education can help with that, not witchhunts and pitchforks.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on November 28, 2016, 11:20:41 pm

Quote from: Sonny_Jim

I don't see how continuing any conversation about Wayne will be productive toward anything you just said.

I wasn't directing it against Wayne, but if he is in cahoots, then I don't see a problem. And NO, I don't advocate hounding him at all.

Quote from: Sonny_Jim

Yes, there's plenty of scams, bogus campaigns, 'facts' that are just plain wrong.  Better education can help with that, not witchhunts and pitchforks.

In my 40+ years, my opinion is, people are becoming LESS educated ! All the core maths and science is being watered down, and education by social media is a
disaster. A little knowledge can often be detrimental. Besides, I LOVE pitchforks and witchhunts :-) .. BURN them at the stake !! ahhh old times :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on November 29, 2016, 12:05:53 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 28, 2016, 07:50:46 pm

It is well past time for this to stop.

Stop what? Am I not entitled to my opinion?

For the record I don't think Wayne, or anyone else for that matter, should be harassed. Treat others as you would be treated and all...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 29, 2016, 01:29:18 am

Quote from: timb on November 29, 2016, 12:05:53 am

Stop what? Am I not entitled to my opinion?
For the record I don't think Wayne, or anyone else for that matter, should be harassed. Treat others as you would be treated and all...

There is currently one person in the world that has Batterisers in hand that is willing to communicate with us, and he's in Australia so could send me some next day if he chose. Yet many people here seems to want to keep antagonising him, even if only in a slight way :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 29, 2016, 01:32:30 am

Everybody is welcome to have their own opinion - but it is time to stop psychoanalyzing and speculating, especially when it's getting off the mark.

Is Wayne complicit in any of the Batteroo debacle...?  Personally, I don't think so.  His responses so far are entirely consistent with someone who has seen a product and wants to give it a go - and is getting pissed off at people who want to give him a hard time about it.

At this point, I can see a lot of the negative comments against Wayne as being a simple case of jealousy and sour grapes.... "He has a Batteroo sleeve and I don't!!".  I don't blame him for his response - the guy is getting bombarded.


When more Batteroos get out in the wild (which it seems could happen) all these speculative denigrations will be seen as just plain stupid.  For those who present them, any conscience about them being undeserved will fade quickly, but for the recipient, undeserved attacks can leave a bad taste for years.

My suggestion: Put your big girl panties on and let's keep focussed on the real subject here - the Batteroo sleeve.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on November 29, 2016, 01:35:07 am

Quote from: timb on November 29, 2016, 12:05:53 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on November 28, 2016, 07:50:46 pm

It is well past time for this to stop.

Stop what? Am I not entitled to my opinion?

For the record I don't think Wayne, or anyone else for that matter, should be harassed. Treat others as you would be treated and all...

You are entitled to your opinion.  And in my opinion, it is time for you and the rest to stop hassling Wayne and psychoanalyzing him without a license or even his permission.

The Batteriser/oo is a $400K USD energy sideshow.  Aside from the blatant misrepresentations, it is simply a complete nothing in the spectrum of badly spent money on energy projects.  The money is but a distant decimal place in the grand scheme.  The tiny sum from IndieGoGo was laughable from the outset.  Should Bob and Frankie endure some well-deserved shaming for abandoning the very tenets of their professions?  Yes.  But that has been done and is long over with.  The Batteriser will likely die a little-known curiosity that could have been useful for a very select segment of devices.

Now, as Dave has so properly stated, there is nothing left but the soap opera.  And that's all this is at this point:  entertainment, intellectual curiosity and the sheer fun of finding out what one of these sleeves will actually do.

I paid Wayne fifty bucks for the privilege of peeking underneath a Batteroo's skirt only to find that it had potting compound bloomers on.  Wayne took my money and bought part of a weekend's worth of beer for him and his buddies.  Fun was had by all. 

Enjoy the saga for what it is:  entertainment.  If I ever met Bob and Frankie at this point, I would buy beers and dinner for them if they'd let me.  Everyone has suffered enough. 

All of the personal attacks and vitriol need to stop.

Peace.

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on November 29, 2016, 01:38:31 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 29, 2016, 01:29:18 am

Quote from: timb on November 29, 2016, 12:05:53 am

Stop what? Am I not entitled to my opinion?
For the record I don't think Wayne, or anyone else for that matter, should be harassed. Treat others as you would be treated and all...

There is currently one person in the world that has Batterisers in hand that is willing to communicate with us, and he's in Australia so could send me some next day if he chose. Yet many people here seems to want to keep antagonising him, even if only in a slight way :-//

:palm: That's the point I was trying to make though... For the most part, people here have actually been very nice to him! Yes, a couple of people had a rude reply, but they were the minority and didn't continue.

I just went back and read all the replies. The majority were people basically saying, "Hey, we're a community of engineers, this isn't personal towards you. We just want data."

If anything, I'd say *he's* the one that's been antagonistic, from the start in fact.

I hope he does send you a unit. In fact, I encourage him to. Based on his past communication with you and his two posts in this thread, I don't see that happening. However, I'd love to be proven wrong.

And that's my last word on this. ;)

Edit: I don't think Wayne is "in on it" with Bateroo or anything. I never said anything like that. As for my "psychoanalysis", that was one sentence in one previous post related to one specific thing he said to Dave. I don't know why you guys are getting your panties in a twist over that. It was a valid assessment. And FFS, nobody is personally "attacking" anybody. Talk about hyperbole, Jesus...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 29, 2016, 01:42:05 am

Another landed. I'm a little confused by what he means about "shouldn't be anonymous"

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=274424;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on November 29, 2016, 01:51:44 am

I think he was referring to the "All the peoples saying they have received the items are anonymous!" remark.
Although that remark in itself confused me...
anyway... I thought I'd dissect Wayne's data, unfortunately it's not very consistent so... I guess it's back to waiting for lunar rock to landBatteroo shipment

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 29, 2016, 01:54:53 am

Quote from: timb on November 29, 2016, 01:38:31 am

As for my "psychoanalysis", that was one sentence in one previous post related to one specific thing he said to Dave. I don't know why you guys are getting your panties in a twist over that. It was a valid assessment.

I disagree about it being a valid "assessment" - but I'll leave that aside.  What I am more concerned about is the actual posting of such a provocative statement in the first place.  What was the motivation?  What was it meant to achieve?  It was very much personal.


If you still wish to defend it, then go ahead - but I am done giving any more of my time on this irrelevance.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 29, 2016, 02:55:13 am

Quote from: timb on November 29, 2016, 01:38:31 am

If anything, I'd say *he's* the one that's been antagonistic, from the start in fact.
I hope he does send you a unit.

He won't, because you can't let it go and are doing it again  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 29, 2016, 02:56:40 am

Quote from: quad on November 29, 2016, 01:42:05 am

Another landed. I'm a little confused by what he means about "shouldn't be anonymous"
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=274424;image)

First report of AAA units.
I've sent him a message.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Koen on November 29, 2016, 03:03:19 am

And yet some are ready to be all mellow and pay 100 USD to keep the circus going. Hardly an example.

Quote from: EEVblog on November 28, 2016, 01:29:41 am

Again I have made an offer to Wayne, see if he takes it.

He said he might have sent me some originally if he hadn't have seen the personal attacks on the forum, so thanks everyone who did that.

Not like people have been attacking/doxxing Bob and others involved personally for ages in this thread without it being a problem to anyone. Now that they need Wayne, it's a mean thing to do.

"Bob might have sent some for review to journalists had you not been a big meanie in your debunking video so thanks for that" would be an equally stupid statement.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 29, 2016, 03:10:14 am

Quote from: Koen on November 29, 2016, 03:03:19 am

Not like people have been attacking/doxxing Bob and others involved personally for ages in this thread without it being a problem to anyone. Now that they need Wayne, it's a mean thing to do.
"Bob might have sent some for review to journalists had you not been a big meanie in your debunking video so thanks for that" would be an equally stupid statement.

The apples & oranges award of the day goes to Koen.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Koen on November 29, 2016, 03:25:27 am

Must change you from giving awards to yourself. This circus of a thread was all fine with you until you needed Wayne.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bills on November 29, 2016, 03:29:06 am

"My suggestion: Put your big girl panties on and let's keep focussed on the real subject here - the Batteroo sleeve."
Thanks Brumby, I agree with you.

I have been following this thread for too long, I guess I can follow a little longer.
bill

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edavid on November 29, 2016, 04:02:41 am

Quote from: rrinker on November 28, 2016, 06:54:55 pm

I'm assuming the 800mAh ones I found on Banggood are utter bullshit, seeing as how all the rest are a more reasonable 400mAh. Now, as long as the truly are the proper 9V size so they fit in my device, these are by far the best option. Higher capacity than any of the older rechargeable types. A huge complaint is how these devices (it's a wireless handheld throttle control fro model railroads) chew through batteries. These could be the sort of thing needed, IF they fit - as I said, the battery space is very tight and some brands of NiMH and NiCad batteries simply do not fit.

If you don't mind buying a charger, regular "9V" 2 cell Li-ions are much better than the USB chargeable batteries.  I recently tested some EBL brand, and they deliver 600mAh as advertised.  The dimensions are fine too.

I would expect the USB recharge 9V batteries to use one cell taking up half the space, with the rest of it used for the charger and boost converter.  The capacity should be 300mAh minus boost converter losses.  If they used a larger cell that took up 2/3 of the space, I suppose they might get 400mAh.  You are right that 800mAh is impossible.

P.S. Sorry for the non-Batteroo post.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bills on November 29, 2016, 04:12:02 am

Be sure to listen to Gumby and Pokie.(my avatar)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 29, 2016, 04:42:26 am

Quote from: Koen on November 29, 2016, 03:25:27 am

Must change you from giving awards to yourself. This circus of a thread was all fine with you until you needed Wayne.

It would seem you don't understand the reasoning for giving you that award - which is a shame in itself - however, seeing that the significance of it is also lost is the greater disappointment.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Koen on November 29, 2016, 04:59:37 am

Enlighten me then.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rx8pilot on November 29, 2016, 05:00:30 am

This thread is epic. Its nearly it's own forum.

Sent from my horrible mobile....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 29, 2016, 05:04:35 am

Quote from: Koen on November 29, 2016, 04:59:37 am

Enlighten me then.

You don't see it?

Wayne's involvement is hardly comparable to that of Bob and Co.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Koen on November 29, 2016, 05:07:34 am

I knew this would be your reply. Thus this behaviour is acceptable depending on the involvement of the person in the project ? So had Wayne been the official distributor in Australia at the moment of his big reveal, he would have been worthy of it ?

No, no one deserves it. And I'm sure we all agree on it.

What I'm pointing at is the hypocrisy of tolerating it when the person targeted is of no interest to you while suddenly asking for respect and higher moral when suddenly the target does. And to sound deep and wise too : "you can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 29, 2016, 05:24:11 am

Context is a marvellous thing, especially when it is ignored in an attempt to make a 'point'.

Wayne has no responsibilities to anyone regarding the Batteroo sleeve.  Bob does, yet both were given curry.  Bob deserves it, Wayne doesn't.  No double standards in that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Koen on November 29, 2016, 05:27:47 am

Quote from: Brumby on November 29, 2016, 05:24:11 am

Bob deserves it, Wayne doesn't.  No double standards in that.

I'll stop here but before, I'll invite you to read this quote of yours again in a few days, weeks or years.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 29, 2016, 05:54:14 am

Keep it in context - and I'll be happy with that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 29, 2016, 05:56:47 am

... but I've got a bet going with myself on a future response from you.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 29, 2016, 05:59:06 am

Now - back to Bob and Batteroo...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Revive Batteries on November 29, 2016, 06:16:43 am

G’day Tossers – it’s me again. (I know I said I would not comment here again but I have some important news to share with you). There may actually be a meaningful benefit for the Batteriser / Batteroo sleeve.

But first, I have been reading all the comments and now realise that there are actually 4 very different types of people on this forum.
1.   Complete tossers.
2.   Semi tossers.
3.   Non tossers.
4.   Observers who don’t get involved (the smart ones)
Sorry if I lumped you all in the same basket previously. I’ll let you self analyse as to which category you fit into.

I have been way too busy to do any lengthy testing but I did manage to do a short experiment with the Batterisers last night. It was unconventional and there are no specific statistics or charts to analyse but it did produce some positive results. The test was based on trial and error and detailed observations.

The object of the exercise was not to work out whether the Batteriser extended the life of the batteries but more whether it could enhance and increase the performance of the batteries over a fixed period of time.

4 batteries were used (the device uses 2 x AA batteries in a corded remote).
2 x partially discharged batteries – (1 at 1.19 volts) – (1 at 1.21 volts).
2 x brand new batteries – (1 at 1.51 volts) – (1 at 1.53 volts).

Test 1. (Exactly 5 minutes on each stage).

Stage 1 - I inserted the 2 partially discharged batteries and turned the device on to full speed. It was in the palm of my hand and it vibrated at a regular speed but was not very strong.

Stage 2 – I used the same batteries but with the Batteriser this time. The level of vibration increased quite significantly. (I guess due to the voltage boost)

Stage 3 – I inserted the 2 x new batteries on their own and repeated. The level of vibration seemed to be very similar to that of Stage 2.

Stage 4 – I used the same batteries but with the Batteriser this time. The level of vibration increased very significantly. (In fact the bloody thing kept wanting to jump off my hand).

Obviously, this was not a very scientific test and the results are based purely on my own opinions and observations, so I decided to get a second opinion.

I have a female assistant (who shall remain nameless) who is very objective and always provides honest and reliable opinions and feedback.

Test 2. (Timing on each stage varied a bit).
 
Stages 1 to 4 were duplicated in sequence with and without Batterisers.

She confirmed my previous observations on the levels of vibration in each stage.
In her opinion, Stage 4 is where you would want to use the Batteriser on every occasion. In fact, she definitely wants a set of Batterisers for herself!

For your reference the device was a butterfly shaped, multi speed vibrating sex toy (similar to the one that was purportedly used in the “When Harry Met Sally” movie restaurant scene).

My Conclusions:

This would not be of much interest to your average electrical engineer who is more focused on the in depth technical aspects of how devices work and how to measure and record their statistics.

It begs the question – is duration or performance more important in a battery? It depends on the requirements of the particular device, market and consumer.

For example: What’s the biggest market in the world for portable battery operated devices – the adult products market. Would they be interested in a device that enhances the performances in a range of their items? Quite likely.

Remember, there’s always 2 sides to every story – try not to get obsessed and hung up on a particular aspect that stops you from seeing the big picture.

Does this mean that Batteriser works as claimed? Not necessarily, it will take more actual testing to prove it one way or another.

One thing's for sure, I'm going to keep repeating this experiment to confirm the results are in fact accurate - you know the saying "measure twice - cut once".

Anyway, I’m out of here. This is definitely the last time I comment on here.
(In fact Dave, can you please permanently delete my registration)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 29, 2016, 06:20:36 am

Thanks Wayne, very funny.  I love it.

Batterisers and Viagra go together.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on November 29, 2016, 06:25:34 am

Interesting test.
The test confirmed what we here at this forum agreed a long time ago, Batteriser do work as a DC-to-DC boost converter
(A point that nobody of us doubted anyway in the first place).
In the case of this particular test, it might be the 'niche' use case where you want constant voltage albeit at a much faster drain rate
(depends on when the 'finish' line is, I guess  :-DD)

It's too bad Wayne's not going to be involved anymore, as I don't think we're going to catch any other specimen of Batteroo in the wild... time will tell I guess

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 29, 2016, 06:34:26 am

Quote from: Revive Batteries on November 29, 2016, 06:16:43 am

Anyway, I’m out of here. This is definitely the last time I comment on here.
(In fact Dave, can you please permanently delete my registration)

I hope not - you are too funny to go away.     :-+
Sorry about the trailer thing.

 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 29, 2016, 06:35:01 am

Thank you Wayne for that 'outside the box' thinking.  Put a smile on my dial, too.

Quote from: Revive Batteries on November 29, 2016, 06:16:43 am

It begs the question – is duration or performance more important in a battery?

In all seriousness, a very interesting question. 

But being less serious ... Maybe Bob will leverage this new angle ... perhaps there might be a new name on the horizon: Batteroot.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: steverino on November 29, 2016, 08:38:05 am

Oy vey to Wayne's "last" post.  I'll step out of my Observer role and spoil all the good will he's being accorded.   He's comes off as a dick (yeah, the kind you put batteries into).  Sorry, that tosser labeling is too much.  Back to being an Observer....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Don Hills on November 29, 2016, 08:47:24 am

Quote from: Revive Batteries on November 29, 2016, 06:16:43 am

G’day Tossers – it’s me again.

Oi! What about us non tossers and observers?

Quote from: Revive Batteries on November 29, 2016, 06:16:43 am

...
For your reference the device was a butterfly shaped, multi speed vibrating sex toy (similar to the one that was purportedly used in the “When Harry Met Sally” movie restaurant scene).
...
This would not be of much interest to your average electrical engineer who is more focused on the in depth technical aspects of how devices work and how to measure and record their statistics.
...

On the contrary. We very much want to know the make and model of the device, so that we can get one and measure how much current it draws. One of the "bones of contention" that people are chewing on is the amount of current a Batteriser can supply before the output voltage starts to drop. It'd be really good if you could measure that for us...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on November 29, 2016, 08:48:25 am

Pretty offensive but lets face it if you start trying to dissect somebody's personality and motives online without even knowing them (or even if you do) you can expect some retaliation...

Clearly nothing to be achieved fuelling that fire, lets move on and see if we can find some other lucky soul who's willing to subject their Batteriser/Batteroo to a scientific test....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on November 29, 2016, 08:57:44 am

Quote from: Revive Batteries on November 29, 2016, 06:16:43 am

Sorry if I lumped you all in the same basket previously.

You're forgiven.

Quote from: Revive Batteries on November 29, 2016, 06:16:43 am

It begs the question – is duration or performance more important in a battery? It depends on the requirements of the particular device, market and consumer.

Well that comes down to the product and application. However running a product above and beyond what it was originally designed probably isn't the best option. As for the Batteriser specifically, it promises to extend the battery life, not improve a products performance. To take your example, what good is a fun time if it doesn't last very long? ;-)

Quote from: Revive Batteries on November 29, 2016, 06:16:43 am

Does this mean that Batteriser works as claimed? Not necessarily, it will take more actual testing to prove it one way or another.

One thing's for sure, I'm going to keep repeating this experiment to confirm the results are in fact accurate - you know the saying "measure twice - cut once".

Anyway, I’m out of here. This is definitely the last time I comment on here.
(In fact Dave, can you please permanently delete my registration)

Completely agree, however I just wish you'd stop resisting the help and advice of some very clever people here, Dave included. You said yourself you aren't the expert, so why not let an expert have a go? You're looking at being a reseller, why not take the opportunity to get some free and thorough testing done on a product you intend to sell? Worst case, the product doesn't function as advertised and you decide not to sell it, best case, you have a butt load of data to do with as you wish.

Surely you're mature and experienced enough to participate in a meaningful discussion and experiment, rather than focussing on the minority who seem to piss you off? The majority of people are here to learn and commencing your post with "Hey Tossers" isn't exactly a great way to promote yourself or your business to the majority of those who are respectful and are doing the right thing. I'd like to think we all have a bit of a better grasp of the English language around here.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on November 29, 2016, 09:55:05 am

G'day Wayne. 

I would much rather be a tosser than an immoral snake oil salesman.

You surely know that the claims made by batteroo are impossible, but yet you hope to punt these things to an unsuspecting public in order to make a quick buck.  You should be ashamed of yourself.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on November 29, 2016, 10:01:03 am

Hmmm that reminded me...
Anyone who have 'voice' on the IndieGogo campaign page tried to contact Sean Caskey?
Just wondering...

Although on second thought, it seems that most of the people who claimed to have received shipment, except Wayne, seems to be shill accounts so eh...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 29, 2016, 10:05:23 am

Quote from: Luminax on November 29, 2016, 01:51:44 am

I thought I'd dissect Wayne's data, unfortunately it's not very consistent...

I think he's measuring voltages under no load, random amounts of time after they've been taken out of the flashlights/torches.

I'm not sure if those flashlights/torches would let you measure voltage under load, probably not. 30 seconds random delay between removing and measuring would make a huge difference to the readings. You should either do it as fast as possible or leave them for twenty minutes to recover.

He's also measuring one set under no load with batteriser in place. This will obviously tell you NOTHING about the state of the battery.

Looks like Wayne isn't coming back so all further discussion in that direction is pointless. Let's see of any other sets of Batterisers turn up anywhere. I have a feeling Bob is choosing the recipients carefully though (if he's even posting any more, which I doubt).

Still nobody in the USA with Batterisers?

Wayne: If you're reading this, that means Bob lied to you at least once on the telephone. There's no way in hell Bob has posted 30% of the Batteriser orders from inside the USA and nobody there got one yet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: westfw on November 29, 2016, 11:09:50 am

Quote

It is well past time for this to stop.

Really.  The thread has LONG AGO devolved from being a good example of "how to debunk a product."
Hints: complex conspiracy theories, speculations on producer motivations, and psychological evaluations of ... anybody should not be involved.  Sure, tracking a possibly fraudulent crowdfunding campaign can be fun, but that's NOT the same as debunking the product.
We should have locked the thread after the initial science/engineering evaluation UNTIL the product was in-hand to test.
(A product that never shows up doesn't much need debunking, does it?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 29, 2016, 11:10:13 am

Quote from: Luminax on November 29, 2016, 10:01:03 am

Anyone who have 'voice' on the IndieGogo campaign page tried to contact Sean Caskey?

I have tried to contact him.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on November 29, 2016, 11:15:47 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 29, 2016, 11:10:13 am

Quote from: Luminax on November 29, 2016, 10:01:03 am

Anyone who have 'voice' on the IndieGogo campaign page tried to contact Sean Caskey?

I have tried to contact him.

Nice. The 'No anonymous' part in his post kind of points at the possibility that he might be one of the 'interested supplier' that Bob might've scored somewhere, thing might be looking up?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 29, 2016, 11:16:13 am

Quote from: westfw on November 29, 2016, 11:09:50 am

We should have locked the thread after the initial science/engineering evaluation UNTIL the product was in-hand to test.
(A product that never shows up doesn't much need debunking, does it?)

You don't get it. In an industry usually devoid of entertainment, the Batteriser has delivered that in spades. Most people don't follow the forum's 2nd most popular thread to debunk the product (the impossibility of the claims is obvious to any competent engineer), they are here for the  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on November 29, 2016, 11:48:13 am

Quote from: wilfred on November 29, 2016, 11:20:56 am

Quote from: westfw on November 29, 2016, 11:09:50 am

Quote

It is well past time for this to stop.

Really.  The thread has LONG AGO devolved from being a good example of "how to debunk a product."
Hints: complex conspiracy theories, speculations on producer motivations, and psychological evaluations of ... anybody should not be involved.  Sure, tracking a possibly fraudulent crowdfunding campaign can be fun, but that's NOT the same as debunking the product.
We should have locked the thread after the initial science/engineering evaluation UNTIL the product was in-hand to test.
(A product that never shows up doesn't much need debunking, does it?)

Actually, you make some very good points.

As far as I'm concerned, this would be true in most other cases.  BUT - the moment they started making it personal against Dave and the Forum here (muppet video, "Davey jonez", youtube voting etc etc) it turned into fair game, as far as I'm concerned. 

EEVBlog is itself as much a part of this charade now as the original product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 29, 2016, 12:16:32 pm

Quote from: westfw on November 29, 2016, 11:09:50 am

Sure, tracking a possibly fraudulent crowdfunding campaign can be fun

Yep.

Quote from: westfw on November 29, 2016, 11:09:50 am

but that's NOT the same as debunking the product.

Praise be to Glub.

Quote from: westfw on November 29, 2016, 11:09:50 am

We should have locked the thread after the initial science/engineering evaluation UNTIL the product was in-hand to test. (A product that never shows up doesn't much need debunking, does it?)

??

a) This is one of the longest threads ever
b) It's an engineering soap opera with Bob Roobarb is the evil villain
c) It's full of photoshopped pictures of Bob, a monkey called 'Probes', etc.
and
d) Nobody forces you to read it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on November 29, 2016, 01:03:42 pm

Quote from: g.lewarne on November 29, 2016, 11:48:13 am

Quote from: wilfred on November 29, 2016, 11:20:56 am

Quote from: westfw on November 29, 2016, 11:09:50 am

Quote

It is well past time for this to stop.

Really.  The thread has LONG AGO devolved from being a good example of "how to debunk a product."
Hints: complex conspiracy theories, speculations on producer motivations, and psychological evaluations of ... anybody should not be involved.  Sure, tracking a possibly fraudulent crowdfunding campaign can be fun, but that's NOT the same as debunking the product.
We should have locked the thread after the initial science/engineering evaluation UNTIL the product was in-hand to test.
(A product that never shows up doesn't much need debunking, does it?)

Actually, you make some very good points.

As far as I'm concerned, this would be true in most other cases.  BUT - the moment they started making it personal against Dave and the Forum here (muppet video, "Davey jonez", youtube voting etc etc) it turned into fair game, as far as I'm concerned. 

EEVBlog is itself as much a part of this charade now as the original product.

I think we can pretty much safely say that EEVBlog, especially this thread's particular video, was the thing that started it all.
Boob/Pranky might've had good albeit probably a bit shady initial intention, we have no way to confirm that.
The product itself does work as a DC-DC converter battery sleeve.
The initial overmarketting video is actually what one would expect from your usual marketting(read:bullshitter) crowd(no offense to honest-to-goodness marketting crowds, if that even exist).
The back-and-forth created after the video is what provided this Academy Award, Golden Globe Award worthy drama unfolding before us.
Sit back and  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on November 29, 2016, 01:11:19 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on November 29, 2016, 11:16:13 am

You don't get it. In an industry usually devoid of entertainment, the Batteriser has delivered that in spades. Most people don't follow the forum's 2nd most popular thread to debunk the product (the impossibility of the claims is obvious to any competent engineer), they are here for the  :popcorn:

BTW, is there a top 10 list of the most popular threads?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 29, 2016, 01:15:07 pm

Quote from: madires on November 29, 2016, 01:11:19 pm

BTW, is there a top 10 list of the most popular threads?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/stats/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/stats/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 29, 2016, 01:27:13 pm

Quote from: Luminax on November 29, 2016, 01:03:42 pm

I think we can pretty much safely say that EEVBlog, especially this thread's particular video, was the thing that started it all.
Boob/Pranky might've had good albeit probably a bit shady initial intention, we have no way to confirm that.
The product itself does work as a DC-DC converter battery sleeve.
The initial overmarketting video is actually what one would expect from your usual marketting(read:bullshitter) crowd(no offense to honest-to-goodness marketting crowds, if that even exist).
The back-and-forth created after the video is what provided this Academy Award, Golden Globe Award worthy drama unfolding before us.

My (and others) videos and especially the forum have played a key role in shaping the product and it's claims. How many times has something been mentioned/busted/exposed on this forum and a day later Batteroo have changed their website, their claims, their wording, etc etc. There has to be at least half a dozen examples. It's all chronicled here.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 29, 2016, 02:11:18 pm

I was going to add to Fungus' list - but Dave just covered the point .... That this thread has helped shape Batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on November 29, 2016, 02:18:27 pm

 Despite the fact that Bob has said Dave has no idea what he's doing because he's not a PhD like his Batteroo team. Or was that when he thought Dave actually had no technical degree whatsoever and instead went to acting school?

 Is it bad I knew exactly what (well, at least in general terms) the 'device' was that Wayne was testing in long before he revealed it at the bottom of the post?  :-DD

Quote from: EEVblog on November 29, 2016, 11:16:13 am

You don't get it. In an industry usually devoid of entertainment, the Batteriser has delivered that in spades. Most people don't follow the forum's 2nd most popular thread to debunk the product (the impossibility of the claims is obvious to any competent engineer), they are here for the  :popcorn:

 Indeed. There hasn't been a write-only memory data sheet sort of thing in a long while. Usually we get by with mocking stock photos. Batteroo has been and continues to provide one huge entertainment spectacle. Though outside of the forum here I have seen nothing (I don't follow their FB page or bother looking at the Indiegogo page) much of any mention of the product or company. Not that I'm actively looking, but I follow a few technical sites that, if there was a news item, would have linked it or reported on it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CJay on November 29, 2016, 02:29:19 pm

Quote from: rrinker on November 29, 2016, 02:18:27 pm

Despite the fact that Bob has said Dave has no idea what he's doing because he's not a PhD like his Batteroo team. Or was that when he thought Dave actually had no technical degree whatsoever and instead went to acting school?

 Is it bad I knew exactly what (well, at least in general terms) the 'device' was that Wayne was testing in long before he revealed it at the bottom of the post?  :-DD

I had the same thought when I saw the wording of the first para or two, it was pretty obvious that he was taking the p*ss.

Personal feeling and until proven wrong, it feels like a scam to me but Wayne may well be an eager evangelist/dupe to a scheme that feels as though it's morphing into a pyramid/MLM type of scheme.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 29, 2016, 02:44:16 pm

Quote from: CJay on November 29, 2016, 02:29:19 pm

Personal feeling and until proven wrong, it feels like a scam to me but Wayne may well be an eager evangelist/dupe

I don't know if Wayne is complicit or a dupe, it's impossible to judge.

I do know there's no way in hell Wayne was chosen randomly to receive the only-known box of Batterisers. Bob chose him specifically.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 29, 2016, 02:57:19 pm

Quote from: rrinker on November 29, 2016, 02:18:27 pm

Despite the fact that Bob has said Dave has no idea what he's doing because he's not a PhD like his Batteroo team. Or was that when he thought Dave actually had no technical degree whatsoever and instead went to acting school?

What can you say about a PhD who claims having over 30 years of electrical engineering experience, who acts to be an expert in battery technology, but who doesn't seem to know the basics of the electronics and cannot even calculate the battery capacity correctly. At least Dave got it right, even without PhD. I guess Bob got pissed off by this simple fact.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on November 29, 2016, 03:05:47 pm

Let's simply wait for Dave getting Batteroo sleeves from a forum member or some other kind backer. Bob's IGG updates on shipping will provide sufficient entertainment meanwhile. >:D

PS: A business man would sell a $2.5 product happily for $100. Easy money.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on November 29, 2016, 03:06:28 pm

I suspect that Wayne has had some recent correspondence with Bob. On one hand he presents himself as a straight-talking, no bullshit, cynic, and yet on the other, he appears to have some allegiance to the Batteroo faith even though his own "tests" fall far short of demonstrating that the Batteroo sleeves come close to producing any real performance gains. His latest comment on IGG reads more like something Bob would say rather than the  robust-talking Wayne we are so familiar with on this forum.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 29, 2016, 03:18:50 pm

Quote from: madires on November 29, 2016, 03:05:47 pm

A business man would sell a $2.5 product happily for $100. Easy money.

I thought Dave upped the bounty to $1000 a few pages ago.


PS: Does anybody understand this part of Wayne's post?

Quote from: Revive Batteries on November 27, 2016, 02:34:43 pm

.... then to top it off, Dave back door’s me with an email offering to buy them all at some inflated price.
I’m not some dumb gullible fuck!

Which part of selling them for a huge profit would make him 'gullible'?  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on November 29, 2016, 03:53:28 pm

The bounty is $100 plus about $1.50/1000 views for the video, maybe $200-400 in total. My guess is, that this would be a much better deal than waiting for Batteroo's real production units, if they ever will be made. Until Batteroo can deliver tons of sleeves (which implies a working product), no distributor is able to talk to chain stores, which would be the logical step for selling a cheap item for making profit. Selling a few via a small online shop is nonsense, too much trouble for a laughable margin.

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on November 29, 2016, 04:17:45 pm

I'll personally add an additional $10 to the bounty, if *Wayne* will send his units to Dave.

Edit: If every regular poster in this thread adds another $10 it might be an offer Wayne can't refuse.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on November 29, 2016, 04:23:48 pm

I think it would be more cost-effective to break into Batteroo's office. It's been done before...
(Just kidding of course, if it's not apparent)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 29, 2016, 04:32:36 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on November 29, 2016, 04:23:48 pm

I think it would be more cost-effective to break into Batteroo's office. It's been done before...
(Just kidding of course, if it's not apparent)

Apparently there's thousands of boxes of Batterisers in there.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 29, 2016, 04:33:50 pm

Quote from: timb on November 29, 2016, 04:17:45 pm

I'll personally add an additional $10 to the bounty, if *Wayne* will send his units to Dave.

Edit: If every regular poster in this thread adds another $10 it might be an offer Wayne can't refuse.

I can already see where this is heading to. If Dave gets the Batterisers from Wayne, Bob can then say: "No, those were just pre-production samples for the marketing purposes only. The real devices [which were shipped to the campaign backers but were lost in the mailing process] will perform as advertised." I wouldn't spend any money on Wayne's devices.

Addition: This may also be a nice bite. If Dave did a video on the Wayne's Batterisers, the Batteroo will get a free of charge good information what to improve in the design before they actually start manufacturing the devices. My wild guess is that they are completely clueless how to make that device work, and they haven't manufactured nor shipped anything at all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 29, 2016, 04:35:28 pm

Looks like Wayne is still helping to protect Bob's reputation on IGG:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=274550;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 29, 2016, 04:46:31 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on November 29, 2016, 04:33:50 pm

I can already see where this is heading to. If Dave gets the Batterisers from Wayne, Bob can then say: "No, those were just pre-production samples for the marketing purposes only. The real devices [which were shipped to the campaign backers but were lost in the mailing process] will perform as advertised." I wouldn't spend any money on Wayne's devices.

Agree. Wayne's units aren't worth a lot of money from a debunking point of view.

$100 is already very generous.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on November 29, 2016, 04:48:50 pm

Even before Wayne's latest "test", I think he has proven the worthiness of the Batteriser to the target audience with his unscientific flashlight/torch test.

Wayne got his flashlight to work longer with the Batteriser installed than without it.

Sure, we can argue that, well, the brightness was really dimmer all along because the Batteriser limited the current draw.  We can insist that the light output be accurately measured or the current draw be accurately measured, or that the test be done with a resistor, or a dummy load of some kind that can provide a constant resistance, constant current, constant power, ...  We can (and probably will have to) change the test over and over because on the other side Batteroo or Wayne or whoever contrives counter examples where the Batteriser appears to have some kind of advantage.  Hey, I myself have an LED booklight that is way too bright at the beginning...if I had a device that limited the current draw initially and ended up giving me longer life, that would be excellent.

The main point is, it doesn't matter whether the Batteriser works from a purely engineering standpoint.  We all KNOW it will not be able to extract any significant amount of extra energy from a battery and we can probably prove that under ideal lab conditions it is actually worse.

But does that all matter to the average Joe?  Of course not!  Nobody is going to buy this simply to hook up to test gear.  They are going to be putting them into real devices and they may or may not appear to give a benefit.  Sure, we all know it's really a scam, yet if it can be shown that in at least some cases it appears to have a benefit, it may sell.  There are PLENTY of items that you can buy in dollar stores or online that are really worthless pieces of crap, yet the masses still can't resist buying them.  It doesn't make it right, and anyone involved in designing/selling this crap should be ashamed of themselves, but they are probably laughing all the way to the bank.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 29, 2016, 04:51:14 pm

Well, you could buy a flashlight with a dimmer LED, and make it run longer even without Batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 29, 2016, 04:54:11 pm

Quote from: lpickup on November 29, 2016, 04:48:50 pm

But does that all matter to the average Joe?  Of course not!  Nobody is going to buy this simply to hook up to test gear.  They are going to be putting them into real devices and they may or may not appear to give a benefit.  Sure, we all know it's really a scam, yet if it can be shown that in at least some cases it appears to have a benefit, it may sell.

I still don't believe Bob has manufactured a single unit.

This is all just a bluff to get the final VC capital released before leaving town.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on November 29, 2016, 05:04:53 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 29, 2016, 04:54:11 pm

Quote from: lpickup on November 29, 2016, 04:48:50 pm

But does that all matter to the average Joe?  Of course not!  Nobody is going to buy this simply to hook up to test gear.  They are going to be putting them into real devices and they may or may not appear to give a benefit.  Sure, we all know it's really a scam, yet if it can be shown that in at least some cases it appears to have a benefit, it may sell.

I still don't believe Bob has manufactured a single unit.

This is all just a bluff to get the final VC capital released before leaving town.

I think so too. That's why I think they would be worthwhile in Dave's hands, just to see what chip they use, how they perform, etc.

Bob can't claim they're pre-production units (even though they likely are) because he's publicly stated these are final versions. Multiple times.

I don't think a few of us each putting in $10 is a big deal. Personally, the entertainment this has provided me alone is worth doling that out.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 29, 2016, 05:17:51 pm

Quote from: lpickup on November 29, 2016, 04:48:50 pm

Even before Wayne's latest "test", I think he has proven the worthiness of the Batteriser to the target audience with his unscientific flashlight/torch test.

Yes, exactly. The Batteriser seems to work with some vibrating toys pretty well, as reported already, giving more bang for the buck. It is also possible that the guys at the Batteroo are completely overwhelmed by this and are still testing the toys and the sleeves, and have forgotten to mail the devices in the heat of the excitement.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on November 29, 2016, 05:24:53 pm

Well, I know what that butterfly looks like, and they are pretty nice, made in the USA as well, in Chatsworth CA. Basically a small permanent magnet motor ( actually a brushed neodynium magnet motor with an eccentric mass on the one end of the shaft) that is designed for 2-5V operation. Thus with 2 new cells it will start off at 3V2 initially, rapidly dropping to around 2V5 with standard alkaline cells. The manufacturer recommends using Eneloop cells for best consistency in performance, but alkalines will do, Regular cells will not last long with the high current draw, around 500mA to 1A depending on motor voltage. The wired remote has a resistive speed control, basically a 4R wire wound resistor in series with the power lead. Leads will also add around 2R of resistance to the setup, so your current range is around 200ma minimum to around 700mA on a typical unit.

Batteriser will keep the output voltage at around 3V for a long time, so in this use it will work, though if i was the OEM of the device ( Pipedream Products) i would instead put the electronics into the next version of the unit control ,as it will only need a new control, and around 3mm of extra size on the long dimensions, and a slightly better speed control. The existing ones are pretty poor, they suffer badly from contact problems, and the assembly is rather poor in all regards, from the soldering to mould quality. The motor would be fine with 5V into it, it is the typical small model motor you find all over.

Cheapest retrofit for these is to graft on the 3 cell battery boxes, they contain 3 C cells, have a much longer run time and higher level of output, but are not as discrete. Otherwise use the newer rechargeable models with a lithium cell in it to provide power.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 29, 2016, 05:39:41 pm

Quote from: timb on November 29, 2016, 05:04:53 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 29, 2016, 04:54:11 pm

I still don't believe Bob has manufactured a single unit. This is all just a bluff

I think so too. That's why I think they would be worthwhile in Dave's hands, just to see what chip they use, how they perform, etc.

Bob can't claim they're pre-production units (even though they likely are) because he's publicly stated these are final versions. Multiple times.

I suppose so. And if Bob thinks it's unfair he can always Fedex Dave a couple of 'production' units, right?

Dave can make that very clear at the start of his video. He can even offer to pay the postage. :popcorn:

Bob has no excuse - he's sitting on a huge pile of production units, right?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on November 29, 2016, 07:57:51 pm

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/)

By about 1200 posts at the moment.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 29, 2016, 08:14:42 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 29, 2016, 02:44:16 pm

I do know there's no way in hell Wayne was chosen randomly to receive the only-known box of Batterisers. Bob chose him specifically.

Bob chose him because he went to their office and was from another country and said he wanted to be a distributor.  I have not read that anyone from here has gone to their office and I have found that strange.  I did a fly by of their office like I did with Wayne (that pissed him off). 

Can someone tell me - if I walked into a bar in Australia and yelled at everyone "tossers", what would happen?  Would they laugh, throw me out, beat the shit out of me ?  I read what it means but it seems to me be a friendly joking word but some here seem offended by it.

I think Wayne just has a dry sense of humor that I think fly's over some peoples head and he is having a good time with us.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on November 29, 2016, 08:23:00 pm

Quote from: ez24 on November 29, 2016, 08:14:42 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 29, 2016, 02:44:16 pm

I do know there's no way in hell Wayne was chosen randomly to receive the only-known box of Batterisers. Bob chose him specifically.

Bob chose him because he went to their office and was from another country and said he wanted to be a distributor.  I have not read that anyone from here has gone to their office and I have found that strange.  I did a fly by of their office like I did with Wayne (that pissed him off). 

Can someone tell me - if I walked into a bar in Australia and yelled at everyone "tossers", what would happen?  Would they laugh, throw me out, beat the shit out of me ?  I read what it means but it seems to me be a friendly joking word but some here seem offended by it.

I think Wayne just has a dry sense of humor that I think fly's over some peoples head and he is having a good time with us.

Not sure about Australia, but here in the UK "Tosser" is all about context.  Between mates, fine.  Friendly jab at colleague, fine.  Calling a stranger a tosser, likely to get a broken jaw

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 29, 2016, 08:24:38 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on November 29, 2016, 05:17:51 pm

... the guys at the Batteroo are completely overwhelmed by this and are still testing the toys and the sleeves, and have forgotten to mail the devices in the heat of the excitement.

Finally something makes sense.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on November 29, 2016, 09:04:13 pm

I am finding myself very much on Wayne's side. If I was a battery seller, would I want to sell the Batteriser? Yes probably since it is an idea that would help the odd device that work best at 1.5V.
Would I want to publicly send first samples to Dave? No, definitely not. That would be a really, really dumb thing to do.
Would I want to see a independent technical test to see if it was reliable, efficient, within the RF radiation specs and not likely to damage devices? Absolutely. If I had a friend who was an electronics nut, I would probably let them test it privately.
The thing is I would either want to stock it, or else walk away and not be involved in the slightest if it turned out to be rubbish.

There is nothing evil in the Batteriser concept and we know it can work. The thing we have always attacked is just the exaggerated claims without any scientific backing - particularly the deliberate loaded-no load battery voltage confusion, and the extrapolation of a test on one Garmin device that may even be faulty to all battery powered devices in the world to claim an 80% reduction of battery consumption.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 29, 2016, 09:49:28 pm

Quote from: rrinker on November 29, 2016, 02:18:27 pm

Indeed. There hasn't been a write-only memory data sheet sort of thing in a long while. Usually we get by with mocking stock photos. Batteroo has been and continues to provide one huge entertainment spectacle. Though outside of the forum here I have seen nothing (I don't follow their FB page or bother looking at the Indiegogo page) much of any mention of the product or company. Not that I'm actively looking, but I follow a few technical sites that, if there was a news item, would have linked it or reported on it.

I've been contacted by several large battery industry related companies (who didn't know about about me beforehand) to say they loved the debunking videos and they say Batteriser is the laughing stock in the industry, a running joke.
One wanted to do their own debunking video, but in the end decided it wasn't worth the effort, and just to let the product die naturally as it inevitably will.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 29, 2016, 09:54:18 pm

Quote from: timb on November 29, 2016, 05:04:53 pm

I think so too. That's why I think they would be worthwhile in Dave's hands, just to see what chip they use, how they perform, etc.

FYI, I can't tell you what chip it uses. That would require depotting the chip and taking a micro photograph of the die.
But I know someone that does this, so once I get some, one will be whisked off to have that done.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 29, 2016, 10:00:55 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 29, 2016, 05:39:41 pm

I suppose so. And if Bob thinks it's unfair he can always Fedex Dave a couple of 'production' units, right?
Dave can make that very clear at the start of his video. He can even offer to pay the postage. :popcorn:
Bob has no excuse - he's sitting on a huge pile of production units, right?

Maybe I should do a public announcement video offering Bob a completely unbiased unsarcastic independent test of the Batteriser in exchange for some units and $1000 to his favourite charity?

But meh, if they are shipping as he claims then I'll have some soon enough anyway...

He's always known that my blog would be the absolute best way to validate his product and shut up all the doubters, but he's deliberately not sending me any, or any of the other press units as promised, nor releasing any technical test data as promised either. And they have had test units ready for that purpose for a year now. The answer is simple and obvious, they know it doesn't perform as claimed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 29, 2016, 10:06:30 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on November 29, 2016, 04:33:50 pm

I can already see where this is heading to. If Dave gets the Batterisers from Wayne, Bob can then say: "No, those were just pre-production samples for the marketing purposes only. The real devices [which were shipped to the campaign backers but were lost in the mailing process] will perform as advertised." I wouldn't spend any money on Wayne's devices.

Wayne got production units according to Batteroo, and Bob himself has said backers units have been shipping.
Bob cannot call these prototypes without admitting he lied about units shipping to backers.

(http://i.imgur.com/lkxOdKP.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 30, 2016, 01:14:57 am

I have a question - and I do ask in all seriousness - WHY are these units being called 'prototypes' or 'pre-production' models?

If it's because of the appearance of the name 'Batterizer' on the units then that may be an invalid premise.  Perhaps that has been (as has been suggested earlier) an allowance from Energizer to use up existing components with, no doubt, a requirement that all marketing does not use that name and future components are changed.

These mechanical differences are completely irrelevant in the operation of the device - and I think it would be a really stupid idea to release a version of the product into the marketplace that is substandard in performance to the "real" one - especially as the first release.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 30, 2016, 01:18:17 am

Quote from: Brumby on November 30, 2016, 01:14:57 am

I have a question - and I do ask in all seriousness - WHY are these units being called 'prototypes' or 'pre-production' models?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1077720/#msg1077720 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1077720/#msg1077720)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 30, 2016, 01:21:57 am

That's just some metalwork.  While there is the curiosity question as to why it's changed, it's not going to affect operation in any way.

Who's to say they haven't just used all the material available to get product out and minimise wastage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 30, 2016, 01:23:00 am

How many days (weeks) in a row are we going to have to keep coming back here hoping every new post on here is an announcement that someone on the forum or elsewhere actually has them?
Like I said before, I've heard of someone with an order number in the teens who hasn't got them yet, nor any sort of shipment email or tracking etc.
Meh.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 30, 2016, 01:25:29 am

Quote from: Brumby on November 30, 2016, 01:21:57 am

That's just some metalwork.  While there is the curiosity question as to why it's changed, it's not going to affect operation in any way.
Who's to say they haven't just used all the material available to get product out and minimise wastage.

Sure. Bob has said they are shipping and they are shipping. The million dollar question is why has hardly anyone gotten them after many weeks? And why the lie about the automated tracking and logistics etc when at least one was shipped by hand from a local US post office?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on November 30, 2016, 01:30:49 am

Quote from: timb on November 29, 2016, 01:38:31 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 29, 2016, 01:29:18 am

Quote from: timb on November 29, 2016, 12:05:53 am

Stop what? Am I not entitled to my opinion?
For the record I don't think Wayne, or anyone else for that matter, should be harassed. Treat others as you would be treated and all...

There is currently one person in the world that has Batterisers in hand that is willing to communicate with us, and he's in Australia so could send me some next day if he chose. Yet many people here seems to want to keep antagonising him, even if only in a slight way :-//

:palm: That's the point I was trying to make though... For the most part, people here have actually been very nice to him! Yes, a couple of people had a rude reply, but they were the minority and didn't continue.

No offense to Wayne, this is just from what I have observed.

I mean, I can see why people had rude responses, he kinda was a bit of a dick in the beginning and in his email back to Dave concerning the users of this forum. If it applied to me, I'd be offended too. :/

But I do agree, lets all be nice to Wayne. He doesn't have to help us, but he is. I know we all want to find out what the conclusion to these very interesting 2 years we've been watching is. I too am interested to see the results. (Even though I know they won't be what Uncle Bob is claiming.)


Just my thoughts.

Regards,

-Chris





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 30, 2016, 01:33:30 am

I have a theory ... it's stupid, but it fits the facts (what very few we have).

Maybe Bob's "Shipping Service" is some junior in a corner with a mailing list and a box of Batterizers Batteroo sleeves.

Priority dispatch has been to those he feels have a positive attitude towards the product.  This explains why Wayne would have been on that list.  He was able to present himself directly and 'sell' himself as a desirable candidate for a distributor.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 30, 2016, 01:44:02 am

Quote from: ccs46 on November 30, 2016, 01:30:49 am

I mean, I can see why people had rude responses, he kinda was a bit of a dick in the beginning and in his email back to Dave concerning the users of this forum.

Ever thought he might have had a reason for that?

From my experience, guys like that don't get pissed off without a reason - and when they do, they are going to be blunt.  In truth, we DON'T know what Wayne had been through before what you call 'in the beginning'.  It may have been 'in the beginning' on this forum, but there was clearly something happening beforehand.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on November 30, 2016, 01:45:08 am

Quote from: Brumby on November 30, 2016, 01:44:02 am

Quote from: ccs46 on November 30, 2016, 01:30:49 am

I mean, I can see why people had rude responses, he kinda was a bit of a dick in the beginning and in his email back to Dave concerning the users of this forum.

Ever thought he might have a reason for that?

From my experience, guys like that don't get pissed off without a reason - and we DON'T know what Wayne had been through before what you call 'in the beginning'.  It may have been 'in the beginning' on this forum, but there was clearly something happening beforehand.

Agreed.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on November 30, 2016, 02:56:22 am

Quote from: Brumby on November 30, 2016, 01:44:02 am

From my experience, guys like that don't get pissed off without a reason - and when they do, they are going to be blunt.  In truth, we DON'T know what Wayne had been through before what you call 'in the beginning'.  It may have been 'in the beginning' on this forum, but there was clearly something happening beforehand.

Absolutely!  I am positive that he got swamped by tons of people that Googled "Revive Batteries Darwin" well before Dave posted his e-mail to the forum.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on November 30, 2016, 03:40:22 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 30, 2016, 01:25:29 am

Sure. Bob has said they are shipping and they are shipping. The million dollar question is why has hardly anyone gotten them after many weeks? And why the lie about the automated tracking and logistics etc when at least one was shipped by hand from a local US post office?

My guess is they are cherry picking the few folks they have shipped product to. Wayne got his early to piss off Dave and the rest of the EEVBlog crew. This makes Bob happy and probably gains them the next increment of VC money.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 30, 2016, 05:29:24 am

Someone posted a very good question on Indiegogo.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=274688;image)

Shouldn't the lowest order id #s be in the first wave? I suspect we won't get an answer (it's been 7 days already), because if his order # wasn't less than 10, it raises the question....... why was he sent the Batteroo over someone who ordered it before him? SURELY the order ID should establish the "pecking order" . I count 3 resellers - Myle Home Intelligence, ReviveBatteries and Smartplusnew.

And they STILL haven't confirmed shipping addresses.

Ladies and gentlemen, Batteroo have not shipped to more than 10 "special" people. Bob said backers would receive their product "throughout November" - it's (almost) December now!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 07:20:01 am

Quote from: Brumby on November 30, 2016, 01:14:57 am

I have a question - and I do ask in all seriousness - WHY are these units being called 'prototypes' or 'pre-production' models?

Because that's what they are. The ones we've seen so far are the ones Bob was showing people last year. They're not from new production and since last year Bob has said they were 'respinning' the chip for higher current (it's one of the excuses Bob has given for the delays).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 07:23:29 am

Quote from: lpickup on November 30, 2016, 02:56:22 am

Quote from: Brumby on November 30, 2016, 01:44:02 am

From my experience, guys like that don't get pissed off without a reason - and when they do, they are going to be blunt.  In truth, we DON'T know what Wayne had been through before what you call 'in the beginning'.  It may have been 'in the beginning' on this forum, but there was clearly something happening beforehand.

Absolutely!  I am positive that he got swamped by tons of people that Googled "Revive Batteries Darwin" well before Dave posted his e-mail to the forum.

This is my feeling too. His personal details were really easy to find and there's easily enough nutters out there for a few of them to start calling him and saying stupid things the instant he posted that he had Batterisers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 07:25:20 am

Quote from: quad on November 30, 2016, 05:29:24 am

Someone posted a very good question on Indiegogo.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=274688;image)

Ladies and gentlemen, Batteroo have not shipped to more than 10 "special" people. Bob said backers would receive their product "throughout November" - it's (almost) December now!

How do we even know that "Alan Stainman" isn't a fake account.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 07:30:16 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 30, 2016, 01:23:00 am

How many days (weeks) in a row are we going to have to keep coming back here hoping every new post on here is an announcement that someone on the forum or elsewhere actually has them?

Don't hold your breath.

Bob is obviously lying about the shipments, ergo he's lying about production (would you produce them then not ship them?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 30, 2016, 07:51:44 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 07:20:01 am

They're not from new production and since last year Bob has said they were 'respinning' the chip for higher current (it's one of the excuses Bob has given for the delays).

It should also be noted that the 500mA version would have been perfectly fine for the press review units, even Bob himself used them for all the demos. But nope, they never saw the light of day, not a single one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 30, 2016, 09:04:32 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 07:25:20 am

How do we even know that "Alan Stainman" isn't a fake account.

There is a lot of evidence that points towards this being a real person. I can't stop you doing your own research, but I'd like to ask everyone (nicely) to not post any details or make any attempt to contact this person or others like him.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 30, 2016, 09:18:53 am

Quote from: quad on November 30, 2016, 09:04:32 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 07:25:20 am

How do we even know that "Alan Stainman" isn't a fake account.

There is a lot of evidence that points towards this being a real person. I can't stop you doing your own research, but I'd like to ask everyone (nicely) to not post any details or make any attempt to contact this person or others like him.

This makes me want to do "research", ummm   searched on "Alan Stainman batterizer".  But too tired so I will continue tomorrow.
He must be another distributor, ah wait I need to search on that ...   All searches bring up Annis Water Resources Institute  wait... 
"research"  that is it.  I heard it from reliable sources that AWRI is secretly running tests on the Batterizer and has used up their inventory to do so.  So we need someone to run over there and knock on their door and demand to see the damn things.

Just shows what a little research will do.  Tomorrow I will fly over them and look for them  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 30, 2016, 09:27:37 am

So another day and another day of no reports.
I'm coming to the conclusion that the only thing that makes sense is that they had to ship units for *insert reason here*, but they didn't have them production ready yet for *insert reason here*, so they were forced to hand ship some they had already (pre-production samples?) to make it look like they shipped in volume when they actually hadn't. And they are hoping this buys them enough time to do the real shipping. Hence the "waves" comment, because all they have to do is ship a handful and that's a "wave". So they aren't technically lying.

If they just wanted to ship some samples to dealers etc then they could have done that quietly without any problem or public announcement.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 30, 2016, 09:54:25 am

I have made a VERY interesting discovery!

This shows these backers questioning the Batteriser, and don't appear to be shill accounts. This means there could be Batterisers out there in the "wild"

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=274713;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=274715;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=274709;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=274711;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 09:55:18 am

Quote from: quad on November 30, 2016, 09:04:32 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 07:25:20 am

How do we even know that "Alan Stainman" isn't a fake account.

There is a lot of evidence that points towards this being a real person.

Maybe, I really haven't bothered to check.

But ... Bob is supposed to have posted about three thousand packages of Batterisers from the USA since about six weeks ago. There's been no unboxing videos, no blog updates, nothing. Complete silence apart from a handful of people who've had some sort of personal contact with Bob.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 10:00:04 am

Quote from: EEVblog on November 30, 2016, 09:27:37 am

they are hoping this buys them enough time to do the real shipping. Hence the "waves" comment, because all they have to do is ship a handful and that's a "wave". So they aren't technically lying.

Assuring people that 30% of them have been shipped and talking about "Logistics companies" is definitely lying.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=274715;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 30, 2016, 01:53:39 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 07:20:01 am

Quote from: Brumby on November 30, 2016, 01:14:57 am

I have a question - and I do ask in all seriousness - WHY are these units being called 'prototypes' or 'pre-production' models?

Because that's what they are. The ones we've seen so far are the ones Bob was showing people last year. They're not from new production

But ... HOW do you know?

Have you seen examples from 'new production'?  What differences are there between 'pre-production' and 'new production models?  Are any of these differences visible from external observation?

Relying on the difference in the metalwork, whether the number of scallops or the name used is not adequate.  As I said before, the use of that could simply be utilizing existing parts to save on waste.

Quote

and since last year Bob has said they were 'respinning' the chip for higher current (it's one of the excuses Bob has given for the delays).

I can see one argument for that as being relevant - that if Bob & CO had succeeded, it would have been shouted from the rooftops and since that hasn't happened, then final production could not have begun.

However, I put it to you that our scepticism about that ever happening has been well founded and finding they are unlikely to ever get there, they are just releasing what they have been able to achieve - while saying nothing about their failure.


One other possibility.... Maybe they did succeed in a higher current solution and have included this in the units they are shipping - without a fanfare ... just to surprise us!


It could happen...




(Maybe not)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 02:14:38 pm

Quote from: Brumby on November 30, 2016, 01:53:39 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 07:20:01 am

Quote from: Brumby on November 30, 2016, 01:14:57 am

I have a question - and I do ask in all seriousness - WHY are these units being called 'prototypes' or 'pre-production' models?

Because that's what they are. The ones we've seen so far are the ones Bob was showing people last year. They're not from new production

But ... HOW do you know?

Would you design a new chip, set up production, manufacture a whole new batch, then ... only ship to three people?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on November 30, 2016, 02:23:42 pm

I was bored today around noon while waiting for my other team members to finish their parts for the management bling-bling... errr I mean Powerpoint presentations... so I did do some digging on some of the backers stats... forgot to bring it back home though! I think I was up to 1000 from the top, around 6300+ to go!

One of the person who posted they got tracking number appeared on the 1000 from the top, might be a real deal

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on November 30, 2016, 02:33:51 pm

Wayne has posted more nonsensical ramblings on IGG and Facebook..... 

According to Wayne:

"Because they (Batteroo) did not publically disclose the inner workings of their invention, it has continued to be shrouded in mystery which has upset all the electronics buffs out there." |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 02:46:43 pm

Quote from: Blocco on November 30, 2016, 02:33:51 pm

Wayne has posted more nonsensical ramblings on IGG and Facebook..... 

According to Wayne:

"Because they (Batteroo) did not publically disclose the inner workings of their invention, it has continued to be shrouded in mystery which has upset all the electronics buffs out there." |O

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=274771;image)

It's confirmed. Wayne is firmly in the Batteroo camp.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on November 30, 2016, 02:47:29 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 02:14:38 pm

Would you design a new chip, set up production, manufacture a whole new batch, then ... only ship to three people?

I would organize a nice press conference, invite several related magazines and bloggers, show my shiny new product and give all participants a sample package for free.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 02:56:57 pm

Quote from: madires on November 30, 2016, 02:47:29 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 02:14:38 pm

Would you design a new chip, set up production, manufacture a whole new batch, then ... only ship to three people?

I would organize a nice press conference, invite several related magazines and bloggers, show my shiny new product and give all participants a sample package for free.

Exactly... you'd be telling the entire world that Batteriser has finally arrived, where to get them, etc. You'd be calling up magazines, you'd be handing out press samples as fast as you could pull them out of the crates.

What you wouldn't be doing is trying to string along a bunch of people on IndieGoGo or pretending you've been shipping thousands of units for over a month and can't understand why nobody received them yet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on November 30, 2016, 03:08:41 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 02:56:57 pm

Quote from: madires on November 30, 2016, 02:47:29 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 02:14:38 pm

Would you design a new chip, set up production, manufacture a whole new batch, then ... only ship to three people?

I would organize a nice press conference, invite several related magazines and bloggers, show my shiny new product and give all participants a sample package for free.

Exactly... you'd be telling the entire world that Batteriser has finally arrived, where to get them, etc. You'd be calling up magazines, you'd be handing out press samples as fast as you could pull them out of the crates.

What you wouldn't be doing is trying to string along a bunch of people on IndieGoGo or pretending you've been shipping thousands of units for over a month and can't understand why nobody received them yet.

Batteroo is doing exactly this. They are using the same shipping company to mail the invitations to the press conference.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on November 30, 2016, 03:42:32 pm

More information from Wayne:

BATTERISER / BATTEROO (new name) - what’s all the fuss about?
This article is a summary of my thoughts and opinions of the new Batteroo electronic device that is currently being launched by a US Company.
I have been following this product since its inception because of my interest in batteries.
Should the product meet my expectations, I am actually thinking of becoming a reseller or distributor in Australia. I am based in Darwin in the Northern Territory.
The Company and product are both called Batteroo.
The Batteroo is a micro-thin reusable sleeve that slots neatly over most normal disposable batteries such as common AA’s and AAA’s.
It contains patented technology which is designed to enhance the performance and / or increase the overall lifespan of batteries.
So the big question is – DOES IT WORK?
That is a big point of contention at this moment in time!
There are many theories out there and a number of people who adamantly believe that the product is a scam and will never be delivered and if it is delivered, then it won’t work.
The problem is who to believe? Most of the people I’ve come across have a vested interest of some sort so it’s hard to get to the bottom of it.
Of course, I have a vested interest as well if I want to be a seller of the product but I have no firm commitments or agreements at this stage. Some people have been insinuating that I’m somehow involved directly with Batteroo or I’m being manipulated by them in some way. It’s amazing how a small $2.50 product can result in so much dirty politics!
There’s even one blog that has a complete thread which has been running for a couple of years that’s dedicated to the subject of proving that it will never be delivered or actually work. When I followed the blog for a couple weeks, there were about 50 contributors but only a regular handful who are obsessed enough to make it a mission to see the product fail. However, they are really quite insignificant in the big scheme of things.
I think all the controversy comes down to these people continuing to focus on the same 3 main points:
1. In the early days the product was claimed to increase battery life by up to 8 times (800%). This claim was made due to the performance it showed on a couple of obscure products. The Company has since realised that it was a brash statement to make and have taken a more moderate approach.
2. They launched a crowd funding campaign on Indiegogo with a delivery date of November 2015. There was delay after delay to the point that they are only just delivering those orders now. Being a year late has not made people happy and hence the claims of it being a scam. (I got in reasonably early and mine only just arrived recently).
3. Because they did not publically disclose the inner workings of their invention, it has continued to be shrouded in mystery which has upset all the electronics buffs out there.
Being scientists and engineers, I don’t believe the founders of the Business understood or realised the importance of communicating to their customers and keeping them up to date with the progress of the product. There should have also been more clarity and information on what the product can achieve in the real world. Most people are not really interested in detailed technical specifications. Maybe they should have had a dedicated PR person to manage it all but I guess it costs a lot of money to get something like this going from scratch?
Anyway, people are starting to receive their orders now so it will be interesting to see where it goes from here.
Please see my other post on my opinions and expectations of the actual Batteroo product itself.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on November 30, 2016, 03:43:56 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 02:46:43 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=274771;image)

It's confirmed. Wayne is firmly in the Batteroo camp.

Nothing on his Facebook about this device that he and his assistant tested with and without batteroo's...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on November 30, 2016, 03:45:56 pm

Quote from: PeterL on November 30, 2016, 03:43:56 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 02:46:43 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=274771;image)

It's confirmed. Wayne is firmly in the Batteroo camp.

Nothing on his Facebook about this device that he and his assistant tested with and without batteroo's...

Well, at least there's a technical explanation on how it works. Buckets, water...  :-//

BATTEROO – is it likely to work?
I haven’t had much time to test my ones properly yet but one thing is for sure – it does increase the voltage in used batteries by up to 35% based on the ones I have tested so far. Even the biggest sceptics have to agree on this point.
I have also been very sceptical – it seems to go against the normal principles of how batteries work – there is only so much energy in an individual battery – when it’s gone, it’s gone!
So that got me thinking, how could it actually work to benefit normal people who use batteries in their everyday lives? I reckon there are a couple of ways that it could make a meaningful difference.
The issue is trying to explain it correctly in a non-technical way. I’m going to try and do that now in a similar way that I explain car batteries to my customers.
A battery is like a bucket of water.
Say you had an empty bucket and you insert 2 taps in it – one about a 1/4 of the way down the side and one near the bottom and then fill it up with water. When you turn the top tap on the bucket will start emptying until it stops at that level. If you want to use up all the remaining water you will need to open the bottom tap.
The other point to realise is that the more you open the taps up, the faster the water will flow and the quicker the bucket will empty. The pressure increases.
This is a very basic explanation but it will help to understand my theory of how the Batteroo could benefit the average person using batteries.
So using the bucket scenario above, how could this apply to the Batteroo?
Example1:
Some manufacturers put a voltage cut off in their products. When the battery gets down to a certain voltage the product just switches off. This is generally to protect the internal electronics keep it working as designed. Things like digital cameras or remote controls – they either work or they don’t.
In this case, just like the top tap of the bucket, there is still more power left in the battery but the product can’t use it. Using the Batteroo would be like opening the bottom tap to start using the left over water but in this case it’s the power in the battery.
In reality, the theory is that the Batteroo boosts the battery voltage to be above the cut off level so the product can use whatever power is left without switching off.
So you could use it on the existing old batteries when the item suddenly switches off and boost it back to life. You could also put it on at the start when installing new batteries and it will keep going for longer until the item actually uses up all the available power.
For these types of products you should also be able to use any old batteries you have lying around and provided they are not too far discharged the Batteroo will boost them back above the cut off voltage and get them working again.
How much extra life would you get in these situations? It would really depend on the individual products themselves but given the Batteroo is reusable, over time they should pay for themselves many times over.
Example2:
There are other products that will just use all the available power regardless of what the voltage is – they just go straight to the bottom tap and start draining. How long they last depends on how far open the tap is. For example, a remote controlled car. If you drive it around slowly it will last a lot longer than if you go flat out all the time.
These products are a bit different, so I’ll try to explain using 2 different scenarios.
You’ve got a normal flashlight (not the LED type). You put a new battery in it and turn it on for a long time. Soon after switching it on it will start to dull but you won’t notice it at first. Then you start to notice it getting duller but it’s still bright enough for you. At some point you decide it’s not bright enough anymore so you change the battery to a new one. You know it could have lasted quite a bit longer but you like it brighter. In this case you could put Batteroo on the old battery and get some more brightness for a bit longer. The other way to do it would be to put the Batteroo on at the start and the torch would be much brighter for a longer period of time but the battery won’t last as long as the dull torch without the Batteroo.
So with a flashlight, it’s not really important to make the battery last longer but rather trying to keep it as bright as possible for as long as possible.
Say you’re going camping and you have a nice big air mattress you need to blow up. All you have is a small battery operated pump to do the job. You switch it on and it goes for an hour to get the mattress up to the firmness you like. By this time the pump is starting to get a bit slow and tired and you’ve had enough of hanging around waiting for it to finish.
Your friend has the same mattress and pump but they decide to put some Batteroos on the batteries first. Their pump goes a lot faster and smoother and pumps the mattress up in half the time of yours. In reality, both pumps probably used the same amount of power to do the job but yours lasted longer. You don’t care because your friend is relaxing and having a beer half an hour before you are.
Once again, what’s more important, how much life you can drag out of the battery or how efficiently it runs for the time you need it to work?
I have a big old wall clock that runs fine for a while on a new battery but then starts losing time. I know the battery is still good but the mechanism just needs that bit extra to keep going at the right speed. They really should have designed it to use 2 batteries instead. So I keep throwing out batteries and replacing them. I know it can probably run for much longer but what’s the point if the time is always wrong?
I’m going to put a Batteroo on it next time and see what happens.
So that’s my theories of how the Batteroos could work successfully. I don’t think I’ll be too far off the mark.
Now I just have to start using them and see how it all goes.
Actually, I have another theory but it would need to be thoroughly tested before it could be substantiated.
In some products the batteries become very deeply discharged. Sometimes it’s your fault for forgetting to take them out or other times they still work at a very low voltage. The end result is the batteries leak inside the battery compartment. I don’t know how many times I‘ve gone to change batteries only to find they’ve leaked and there’s acid everywhere. Quite often by the time you find it, the corrosion has set in and you’re up for a new one.
Based on how the Batteroos are designed to work, I reckon there’s a good chance it may go a long way to solving this issue?
Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on November 30, 2016, 03:50:01 pm

Quote from: Luminax on November 30, 2016, 02:23:42 pm

I was bored today around noon while waiting for my other team members to finish their parts for the management bling-bling... errr I mean Powerpoint presentations... so I did do some digging on some of the backers stats... forgot to bring it back home though! I think I was up to 1000 from the top, around 6300+ to go!

One of the person who posted they got tracking number appeared on the 1000 from the top, might be a real deal

I think you'll find it's this person. I think he's a real deal.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=274776;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=274778;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 04:32:38 pm

Quote from: Wayne

A battery is like a bucket of water.
Say you had an empty bucket and you insert 2 taps in it – one about a 1/4 of the way down the side and one near the bottom and then fill it up with water. When you turn the top tap on the bucket will start emptying until it stops at that level. If you want to use up all the remaining water you will need to open the bottom tap.

"1/4 of the way down"? LOL!

More like "as close as they can physically get it to the bottom tap".

Quote from: Wayne

Say you’re going camping and you have a nice big air mattress you need to blow up. All you have is a small battery operated pump to do the job. You switch it on and it goes for an hour to get the mattress up to the firmness you like. By this time the pump is starting to get a bit slow and tired and you’ve had enough of hanging around waiting for it to finish.
Your friend has the same mattress and pump but they decide to put some Batteroos on the batteries first. Their pump goes a lot faster and smoother and pumps the mattress up in half the time of yours. In reality, both pumps probably used the same amount of power to do the job but yours lasted longer. You don’t care because your friend is relaxing and having a beer half an hour before you are.

...except you already proved Batteriser can't even supply enough current to light up your flashlight/torch properly. Your friend's mattress will take four times as long to inflate.

(exactly matching the results of your flashlight test...where the Batterised flashlight is clearly not fully lit therefore lasted much longer)

Quote from: Wayne

Once again, what’s more important, how much life you can drag out of the battery or how efficiently it runs for the time you need it to work?
I have a big old wall clock that runs fine for a while on a new battery but then starts losing time. I know the battery is still good but the mechanism just needs that bit extra to keep going at the right speed. They really should have designed it to use 2 batteries instead. So I keep throwing out batteries and replacing them. I know it can probably run for much longer but what’s the point if the time is always wrong?
I’m going to put a Batteroo on it next time and see what happens.

In other words: Your next 'test' is going to take weeks/months to run - long enough for Batteroo to achieve whatever it is they're trying to get with all this "shipping" nonsense.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on November 30, 2016, 05:07:40 pm

Quote from: Marcel_X on November 30, 2016, 03:45:56 pm

Quote from: PeterL on November 30, 2016, 03:43:56 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 02:46:43 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=274771;image)

It's confirmed. Wayne is firmly in the Batteroo camp.

Nothing on his Facebook about this device that he and his assistant tested with and without batteroo's...

Well, at least there's a technical explanation on how it works. Buckets, water...  :-//

BATTEROO – is it likely to work?
(snipped)

I don't know, this doesn't sound like something Wayne would write. Maybe Bob wrote it for him?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on November 30, 2016, 06:29:09 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on November 30, 2016, 05:07:40 pm

I don't know, this doesn't sound like something Wayne would write. Maybe Bob wrote it for him?

When I read Wayne's last message here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1080593/#msg1080593 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1080593/#msg1080593)), where he talks about testing it in a sex-toy, and discussing that with his female employee, It sounded like Ali to me (anyone remember his nasty comments, even on IGG?)

But I have little doubt that all revivebatteries accounts, on facebook, on IGG an here really do belong to Wayne. But it's clear he works together with Batteroo now (just as others stated)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on November 30, 2016, 06:43:33 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on November 30, 2016, 05:07:40 pm

Quote from: Marcel_X on November 30, 2016, 03:45:56 pm

Quote from: PeterL on November 30, 2016, 03:43:56 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 02:46:43 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=274771;image)

It's confirmed. Wayne is firmly in the Batteroo camp.

Nothing on his Facebook about this device that he and his assistant tested with and without batteroo's...

Well, at least there's a technical explanation on how it works. Buckets, water...  :-//

BATTEROO – is it likely to work?
(snipped)

I don't know, this doesn't sound like something Wayne would write. Maybe Bob wrote it for him?

I thought the same. I was reluctant to believe that Wayne was a shill and gave him the benefit of the doubt at first, but,...... if it walks like a duck........

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 07:15:09 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on November 30, 2016, 05:07:40 pm

I don't know, this doesn't sound like something Wayne would write. Maybe Bob wrote it for him?

It's all fancy English, not a single Aussie curse word or mention of 'beer' in the entire thing.

He also says "flashlight" instead of "torch", etc.

The :bullshit: just went off the scale.

I think the Facebook page says it best:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=274796;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on November 30, 2016, 07:31:11 pm

100% not his words, his write-up, or his evaluation...

All his other references were to it being a "torch" cos that's what it is.... One does not simply start calling it aluminum, when its aluminium!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 07:44:29 pm

Plus... how the hell does he know so much about Batteriser design?   :popcorn:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=274800;image)


Edit: didn't his own test show that Batteriser doesn't shut down at low voltage?  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 09:41:40 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on November 30, 2016, 08:24:15 pm

- Is he actually competent enough to test the Buttriser and give an well informed opinion about it? (we all know the answer to that, but he wants his readers to believe he is)

I think he actually tried to do the first test by himself but chickened out and called Bob for advice. Bob then sent him that text to post.

I still haven't decided if the two flashlights/torches were included in the parcel or not.  :popcorn: (I guess we'll never know the answer to that one though)

The obvious clue (in hindsight) was the massive hostility towards Dave. Where would that come from? You only need to watch a single EEVBLOG video to know what Dave is like.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on November 30, 2016, 09:59:51 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on November 30, 2016, 07:31:11 pm

100% not his words, his write-up, or his evaluation...

All his other references were to it being a "torch" cos that's what it is.... One does not simply start calling it aluminum, when its aluminium!

Right, I didn't noticed this, good spot. For me it just sounded different, and when I read about buckets of water, strange images of poor snails in a well came to my mind ::) BTW, interesting that there are so many different words for flashlight. In German it is "Taschenlampe", literally translated pocket-lamp.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on November 30, 2016, 10:43:02 pm

Can I just say, this saga is like the gift that just keeps on giving ...entertainment.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on November 30, 2016, 10:56:32 pm

Taps draining juice into flashlights?? I've heard that somewhere else recently...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ATX1WJDlds (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ATX1WJDlds)

Did bob use wayne's analogy in the latest cheap-o-mercials or the other way around?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on November 30, 2016, 11:11:38 pm

Quote from: rich on November 30, 2016, 10:56:32 pm

Did bob use wayne's analogy in the latest cheap-o-mercials or the other way around?

Very suspect...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on November 30, 2016, 11:16:38 pm

Quote from: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 04:32:38 pm

Quote from: Wayne

Say you’re going camping and you have a nice big air mattress you need to blow up. All you have is a small battery operated pump to do the job. You switch it on and it goes for an hour to get the mattress up to the firmness you like. By this time the pump is starting to get a bit slow and tired and you’ve had enough of hanging around waiting for it to finish.
Your friend has the same mattress and pump but they decide to put some Batteroos on the batteries first. Their pump goes a lot faster and smoother and pumps the mattress up in half the time of yours. In reality, both pumps probably used the same amount of power to do the job but yours lasted longer. You don’t care because your friend is relaxing and having a beer half an hour before you are.

...except you already proved Batteriser can't even supply enough current to light up your flashlight/torch properly. Your friend's mattress will take four times as long to inflate.

(exactly matching the results of your flashlight test...where the Batterised flashlight is clearly not fully lit therefore lasted much longer)

I'd love to know what air mattress pump runs on AA batteries. Every single one I've seen runs on either 240v mains or 12v from your car/caravan power outlet.


I think we're getting closer to the truth and probably the reason why Wayne seem so angry and resistant to supplying anyone with a Batteriser (or suggestions from this forum). There is something he isn't telling us, rather it seems he is trying to distance himself as much from Bob Rhubarb but his actions and words suggest otherwise. Perhaps he made a bad decision/investment and that's why he's such an angry man?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 30, 2016, 11:18:38 pm

I'm not saying things one way or the other, but to condemn Wayne's post on the basis of the use of a particular word is a little far for my liking:

Quote

You’ve got a normal flashlight (not the LED type). You put a new battery in it and turn it on for a long time. Soon after switching it on it will start to dull but you won’t notice it at first. Then you start to notice it getting duller but it’s still bright enough for you. At some point you decide it’s not bright enough anymore so you change the battery to a new one. You know it could have lasted quite a bit longer but you like it brighter. In this case you could put Batteroo on the old battery and get some more brightness for a bit longer. The other way to do it would be to put the Batteroo on at the start and the torch would be much brighter for a longer period of time but the battery won’t last as long as the dull torch without the Batteroo.
So with a flashlight, it’s not really important to make the battery last longer but rather trying to keep it as bright as possible for as long as possible.

He uses both 'flashlight' and 'torch'.

Interestingly, he only uses the word 'flashlight' at the start of a paragraph.  That's the sort of thing I might expect if someone was making a deliberate effort to write something that was immediately understandable for a global audience.  Even in Australia, we immediately know what is meant - even though we don't really use it in our own day-to-day life.  What I see that's interesting is that when he's just following with his thoughts in the body of the paragraph, he uses the word 'torch'.

I can't quite see Bob & Co. doing that.

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on November 30, 2016, 11:19:44 pm

Wow... So, Wayne turned out to have an agenda? I'm shocked. Shocked.

Edit: Though I don't think Bob wrote that essay. That's taking the conspiracy a bit far IMHO.

I think Wayne wrote it, but I feel his mind was already made up well before he ever started to "test" the units. He was never really objective.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 30, 2016, 11:35:57 pm

I just got a call (10am Aussie time) from Australia.  It is the first time I have ever gotten a call from another country.  My phone ID said the call was coming from Australia.  I thought maybe it was Wayne wanting to chew me out for posting a picture of his house.

I answered on the second ring but the line went dead.   I have no way of calling Australia (I am on the lowest phone plan).  And a search on it does not show anything.   I do not know how the numbers work but it does not seem to be coming from Darwin.

Is it possible overseas telephone scams are now coming from Australia?

Number is:

61 9 7xxx xxxx

I am bummed, I would have enjoyed even a sales pitch from Australia, especially if from Wayne.

Could this be related to this forum?

thanks

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on November 30, 2016, 11:37:37 pm

Quote from: timb on November 30, 2016, 11:19:44 pm

I think Wayne wrote it, but I feel his mind was already made up well before he ever started to "test" the units. He was never really objective.

Possibly. I think someone (Bob?) might have been in his ear about the Batteriser/Batteroo/Batterpoo and explained that it works better in "certain applications" and conducting tests on other devices will actually yield worse results than if he'd just used regular batteries without the sleeve (but shhh... don't tell anyone... act surprised).

So, why is Wayne conducting tests on old incandescent torches? Why is he focused on the performance of the torch as opposed to the claims made on the Batteriser packaging? I think it's because he has been told (or has worked out himself) that the "brighter" torch with the Batteriser looks more impressive on face-value. I guess most consumers who would buy that crap wouldn't think twice about questioning his "results" or caring to understand the theory behind the technology.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 30, 2016, 11:45:23 pm

Quote from: timb on November 30, 2016, 11:19:44 pm

Wow... So, Wayne turned out to have an agenda? I'm shocked. Shocked.

Not sure if I'd call it an agenda, but he does have a vested interest - something which he has declared.

Quote

Edit: Though I don't think Bob wrote that essay. That's taking the conspiracy a bit far IMHO.

I agree

Quote

I think Wayne wrote it, but I feel his mind was already made up well before he ever started to "test" the units. He was never really objective.

I am more inclined to say he has approached the testing with an open mind.  He has said he would not sell it if it wasn't any good.  However, what he HAS done is look for some positive indications - something which is EXTREMELY LACKING from this thread.

People here are focussing on what it CAN'T do - and giving no consideration to what it can.  Please tell me what is wrong with this:

Quote

You’ve got a normal flashlight (not the LED type). You put a new battery in it and turn it on for a long time. Soon after switching it on it will start to dull but you won’t notice it at first. Then you start to notice it getting duller but it’s still bright enough for you. At some point you decide it’s not bright enough anymore so you change the battery to a new one. You know it could have lasted quite a bit longer but you like it brighter. In this case you could put Batteroo on the old battery and get some more brightness for a bit longer. The other way to do it would be to put the Batteroo on at the start and the torch would be much brighter for a longer period of time but the battery won’t last as long as the dull torch without the Batteroo.
So with a flashlight, it’s not really important to make the battery last longer but rather trying to keep it as bright as possible for as long as possible.

No, it's not the original intent - but it is a marketable function

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on November 30, 2016, 11:45:33 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on November 30, 2016, 11:42:10 pm

Quote from: ez24 on November 30, 2016, 11:35:57 pm

61 9 7595 4793

09 (or 9) is not a valid area code for Australian numbers and doesn't exist on our numbering plan. It could be a VOIP service masquerading a false caller ID.

For those who would like a riveting read, refer to Schedule 1 of the Telecommunications Numbering Plan 2015 (http://hhttps://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2015L00319/Download)

thanks - I guess they can now they can spoof countries.  Bummed it was not Wayne

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on November 30, 2016, 11:49:33 pm

Quote from: ez24 on November 30, 2016, 11:45:33 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on November 30, 2016, 11:42:10 pm

Quote from: ez24 on November 30, 2016, 11:35:57 pm

61 9 7595 4793

09 (or 9) is not a valid area code for Australian numbers and doesn't exist on our numbering plan. It could be a VOIP service masquerading a false caller ID.

For those who would like a riveting read, refer to Schedule 1 of the Telecommunications Numbering Plan 2015 (http://hhttps://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2015L00319/Download)

thanks - I guess they can now they can spoof countries.  Bummed it was not Wayne

Depends on your carrier and back-end systems. There was a time in Australia where with a computer and a modem you could make your caller ID show whatever number you wanted and a few scams worked this way. There are a number of online services purporting to be able to do this as well. I haven't seen this since the early 2000's so I dare say the carriers have patched that one. It's unlikely the call originated from Australia.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on November 30, 2016, 11:58:55 pm

A little self-reflection might be wise.

This, I am sure, is an assessment that a lot of people outside this forum will subscribe to:

Quote

I think all the controversy comes down to these people continuing to focus on the same 3 main points:
1. In the early days the product was claimed to increase battery life by up to 8 times (800%). This claim was made due to the performance it showed on a couple of obscure products. The Company has since realised that it was a brash statement to make and have taken a more moderate approach.
2. They launched a crowd funding campaign on Indiegogo with a delivery date of November 2015. There was delay after delay to the point that they are only just delivering those orders now. Being a year late has not made people happy and hence the claims of it being a scam. (I got in reasonably early and mine only just arrived recently).
3. Because they did not publically disclose the inner workings of their invention, it has continued to be shrouded in mystery which has upset all the electronics buffs out there.

Dogged, unmitigating, staunch, negative opinion that gives no quarter to ANY positive indications from this product is a SURE WAY to destroy credibility - and this thread is full of it.


As much as we all understand what the Batteroo sleeve CAN'T do, we had better allow ourselves to acknowledge what it can or might be able to do - because if Bob and Co. come up with a list of, say, 3 marketable things that the product can deliver - even if they are not what was in the original design spec. - then the utterly condemning EE's have lost all credibility in the eyes of the general public.

Why do you think Dave posted this?:

Quote from: EEVblog on November 24, 2016, 09:40:23 am

I've said it before and I'll say it again for those non-technical people who might happen upon the forum, in extra bold large font size and bright colour for easy reference  ;D

There isn't a single engineer on the planet that even remotely doubts the Batteriser will "work" as a boost converter and give you 1.5V output from a "dead" or "used" battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mike Warren on December 01, 2016, 12:00:10 am

Quote from: Brumby on November 30, 2016, 11:45:23 pm

People here are focussing on what it CAN'T do - and giving no consideration to what it can.  Please tell me what is wrong with this:

Quote

You’ve got a normal flashlight (not the LED type). You put a new battery in it and turn it on for a long time. Soon after switching it on it will start to dull but you won’t notice it at first. Then you start to notice it getting duller but it’s still bright enough for you. At some point you decide it’s not bright enough anymore so you change the battery to a new one. You know it could have lasted quite a bit longer but you like it brighter. In this case you could put Batteroo on the old battery and get some more brightness for a bit longer. The other way to do it would be to put the Batteroo on at the start and the torch would be much brighter for a longer period of time but the battery won’t last as long as the dull torch without the Batteroo.
So with a flashlight, it’s not really important to make the battery last longer but rather trying to keep it as bright as possible for as long as possible.

No, it's not the original intent - but it is a marketable function

This is what I'm seeing. The claims of what it can do are being modified to become more realistic. It's a similar technique to the one used by politicians. Average consumers will soon forget the original claims.

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on December 01, 2016, 12:10:07 am

Quote from: Mike Warren on December 01, 2016, 12:00:10 am

Quote from: Brumby on November 30, 2016, 11:45:23 pm

People here are focussing on what it CAN'T do - and giving no consideration to what it can.  Please tell me what is wrong with this:

Quote

You’ve got a normal flashlight (not the LED type). You put a new battery in it and turn it on for a long time. Soon after switching it on it will start to dull but you won’t notice it at first. Then you start to notice it getting duller but it’s still bright enough for you. At some point you decide it’s not bright enough anymore so you change the battery to a new one. You know it could have lasted quite a bit longer but you like it brighter. In this case you could put Batteroo on the old battery and get some more brightness for a bit longer. The other way to do it would be to put the Batteroo on at the start and the torch would be much brighter for a longer period of time but the battery won’t last as long as the dull torch without the Batteroo.
So with a flashlight, it’s not really important to make the battery last longer but rather trying to keep it as bright as possible for as long as possible.

No, it's not the original intent - but it is a marketable function

This is what I'm seeing. The claims of what it can do are being modified to become more realistic. It's a similar technique to the one used by politicians. Average consumers will soon forget the original claims.

Exactly. We all know what it *can* do. We've all--long, long ago--said there are some niche cases where it could be useful.

However, Wayne clearly doesn't have the needed skills to correctly test what it can do and he's unwilling to let someone with the skills to test it! This is made clear by the fact he tested the battery voltage at the sleeve output... :palm:

We're interested in how much current it can put out, the actual minimum battery voltage it can run at, quiescent current, etc.

In his "essay" he's basically moving the goal posts. That's what we've got issue with.

Also, if it's a useable function, then that's how they should market it. That's what this boils down to: We take issue with how they're marketing the product. It can't do what they claim, even though it may be able to do something.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 01, 2016, 12:23:54 am

Quote from: Brumby on November 30, 2016, 11:58:55 pm

As much as we all understand what the Batteroo sleeve CAN'T do, we had better allow ourselves to acknowledge what it can or might be able to do - because if Bob and Co. come up with a list of, say, 3 marketable things that the product can deliver - even if they are not what was in the original design spec. - then the utterly condemning EE's have lost all credibility in the eyes of the general public.

We're missing exactly one data point - the curve of efficiency vs. current. If you give us that data we'll be able to tell you exactly what it can and can't achieve.

So far the Batteroo Brothers have done everything they possibly can to keep that information away from people.

And that is why we assume it's rubbish and why we condemn it. If it was a decent curve Bob would be flaunting it.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on December 01, 2016, 12:31:15 am

Quote from: Halcyon on November 30, 2016, 11:42:10 pm

Quote from: ez24 on November 30, 2016, 11:35:57 pm

61 9 7595 4793

09 (or 9) is not a valid area code for Australian numbers and doesn't exist on our numbering plan. It could be a VOIP service masquerading a false caller ID.

For those who would like a riveting read, refer to Schedule 1 of the Telecommunications Numbering Plan 2015 (http://hhttps://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2015L00319/Download)

I was about to suggest the same. I get about 1 fraudulent call per month and I can always spot them in advance because they fake the CLI but don't seem to know their way around numbering systems well enough to present realistic numbers. Because I'm primed for a possibly fraudulent call before I pick the phone up I'm also primed to promptly lead them on a wild goose chase. Heh, heh, heh,...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 01, 2016, 12:49:26 am

Quote from: timb on December 01, 2016, 12:10:07 am

Exactly. We all know what it *can* do. We've all--long, long ago--said there are some niche cases where it could be useful.

Agreed - but that message is lost to antiquity.

Quote

However, Wayne clearly doesn't have the needed skills to correctly test what it can do and he's unwilling to let someone with the skills to test it! This is made clear by the fact he tested the battery voltage at the sleeve output... :palm:

I have to agree with that.  His efforts at "engineering tests" have been rather short of the mark - but he is doing some "user tests" that will carry him for a bit.

Quote

We're interested in how much current it can put out, the actual minimum battery voltage it can run at, quiescent current, etc.

I'm anxious for those figures as much as anyone.  Once they have been quantified, we can provide a LOT more definitive assessment in various applications.  Can't wait.

Quote

In his "essay" he's basically moving the goal posts. That's what we've got issue with.

Also, if it's a useable function, then that's how they should market it. That's what this boils down to: We take issue with how they're marketing the product. It can't do what they claim, even though it may be able to do something.

As was mentioned above, the moving of the goal posts is a gradual one and most of the public will follow them without noticing until the product is placed in a marketable zone.  The EE criticisms will still be stuck on the things that are an issue.  The public will see the EEs as saying nothing good, when they have something in their hand that they have seen does something useful for them.

I'm not saying that we roll over and play ball with Bob - but it would be much better to acknowledge some positive aspect (when there is something positive to acknowledge) as part of a criticism than to just offer the criticism.

There is some of that on this thread - but it is buried by all the rest.


And let's not forget all the rampant speculation - from the logical (yet unproven) conclusions to the extreme.  Some of these have spawned pages of discussion that should have had less than a dozen lines.  All it would take is some provable facts to be published and this whole thread - and forum, for that matter - to lose credibility in the eyes of the public.


I can only take comfort that the members here - irrespective of the thoughts shared on this thread - will, for the most part, appreciate and understand the interests and concerns with the Batteroo sleeve.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 01, 2016, 12:58:44 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 01, 2016, 12:23:54 am

Quote from: Brumby on November 30, 2016, 11:58:55 pm

As much as we all understand what the Batteroo sleeve CAN'T do, we had better allow ourselves to acknowledge what it can or might be able to do - because if Bob and Co. come up with a list of, say, 3 marketable things that the product can deliver - even if they are not what was in the original design spec. - then the utterly condemning EE's have lost all credibility in the eyes of the general public.

We're missing exactly one data point - the curve of efficiency vs. current. If you give us that data we'll be able to tell you exactly what it can and can't achieve.

So far the Batteroo Brothers have done everything they possibly can to keep that information away from people.

And that is why we assume it's rubbish and why we condemn it. If it was a decent curve Bob would be flaunting it.  :popcorn:

I'd like a few graphs myself, but the curve you speak of is only half the story.  The other half is the battery chemistry - or, more particularly, the state of charge within it.  That is something you cannot objectively state, since the condition of even a partially used battery is too variable for more than general statements.

How it performs out in the field is what is going to make or break this thing - and that is a function of the device (which we can precisely characterize), the sleeve (which we can characterize - when we get the specs) and the battery - which we can only guess at. 

Besides, the "Wayne" tests that reflect usage by the public are going to carry more weight - because they can understand the results better than the datasheet we would prefer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on December 01, 2016, 01:02:37 am

I really think that everybody bagging Wayne have lost touch with reality.  |O |O |O

He is a reseller, and probably would love to be a distributor. Why? Because the Batteriser concept does work - we have always admitted that a battery booster is possible - and because it does have a market. It is not an evil product - it is just a product that has a real market. Not as big a market as Batteroo claimed, but a market. Wayne is a businessman and he can see real money in having Batterisers on the shelves in spite of the history. I do not have any problem with that at all.

If I had a device that works better with 1.5V batteries and a Batteriser was on the supermarket shelves for $2.50, I would definitely buy it, as long as it worked. If I would buy it, then so would millions of other people.

Wayne has said the 800% battery power stuff was rubbish, and he has tried to put his own positive spin on the device. Even in his attempt to support Batteroo, he has undercut their number one claim.

The issue is the behaviour of Batteroo, not Wayne. It is obvious that Batteroo have been struggling - really struggling, and I am seeing a very strong feeling here of bloodlust - kicking someone when they are down. They are in a situation where the real cost of the first devices they have could be, say,  $50 a device and they somehow have to get through this till they can get to a point when they can start offering bulk devices to distributors like Wayne. If they can get to that point (which could mean fixing a mass of manufacturing/reliability/performance issues) they can probably easily sell millions of devices, and they can start to make money. In order to hang in, they may have told a few porkies? It happens when start-ups get desperate. There are many successful companies that survived at the start with some very dodgy behaviour.

If they are successful, will there be lots of cheap clones on the market? How strong are the pending patents given that they have no real claim to the switching converters - just the metal clip? Even if they can make profitable $2.50 devices, their future will be uncertain.

The technical claims from Batteroo are misleading and insufficient, but that is the same for many other products on the market. How many ads have you seen of one-wipe cleaning products that make stoves, showers, bathtubs, etc sparking clean and residue-free in one effortless wipe? How many frozen meals look absolutely nothing like the picture on the pack? How many expensive products at the chemist actually do nothing? How many cars meet the fuel consumption figures claimed by the manufacturer on their sales brochures?

I do not feel like I rubbishing the big supermarket chains, publicly digging up personal detail of company officials, posting pictures of their houses.

Here is exactly what a lawyer will have told Batteroo. "Don't respond to over-the-top statements on the eevblog forum - record everything. The more they say, the easier the defamation/damage case will be." If Batteroo fail - even better for the law case. If they win the legal action, they make millions from people here. If they loose, you get no legal costs refunded. Either way, you loose.

This is the advice that I know lawyers have given to other people who have suffered attacks on forums, and I cannot see why the advice to Batteroo will be any different.

Calm down. Stop the mob mentality. Stop attacking individuals just because they want to support Batteroo. Stop investigating and publicizing the details of people just because they received a Batteriser. Stop the wild speculation.

That is just my advice. If that makes me an idiot, I can live with that. I would prefer to be regarded as a fool then to see one forum member loose their house.

Just get back to the science. That is what you do well.

Richard

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on December 01, 2016, 01:42:16 am

Richard you make some good and very valid points, however Wayne hasn't exactly been an angel either, starting with the hostile e-mail to Dave and his forum posts. I said it before and I'll repeat it here again: That was just poor form. On a personal level, I find his attitude a little undesirable.

I also think he hasn't been completely honest with us, not deliberately being deceitful or lying but certainly withholding details. This is just my opinion, based on nothing more than I have read here. Call it a gut feeling or educated guess if you like.

As for Batteroo lawyers launching any kind of defamation suit against anyone on this forum, good luck with that. They would have almost no hope in subpoenaing any identifying information on anyone on this forum (except for those who live in the USA). I'm sure Dave could just as quickly hit the 'delete' button on the log file containing people's IP addresses (or replacing them with false ones). As for Dave himself, he hasn't said anything that can be even remotely considered defamatory and he as the forum owner cannot be held responsible for what others post.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on December 01, 2016, 01:43:30 am

Quote from: Halcyon on December 01, 2016, 01:42:16 am

Richard you make some good and very valid points, however Wayne hasn't exactly been an angel either, starting with the hostile e-mail to Dave and his forum posts. I said it before and I'll repeat it here again: That was just poor form. On a personal level, I find his attitude leave little to be desired.

I also think he isn't been completely honest to us, not deliberately being deceitful or lying but certainly withholding details. This is just my opinion, based on nothing more than I have read here. Call it a gut feeling or educated guess if you like.

So what. He doesn't have to be. He didn't ask to be attacked in this forum, and he probably does want to be a distributor.

Quote

As for Batteroo lawyers launching any kind of defamation suit against anyone on this forum, good luck with that. They would have almost no hope in subpoenaing any identifying information on anyone on this forum (except for those who live in the USA). I'm sure Dave could just as quickly hit the 'delete' button on the log file containing people's IP addresses (or replacing them with false ones). As for Dave himself, he hasn't said anything that can be even remotely considered defamatory and he as the forum owner cannot be held responsible for what others post.

If a lawyer sniffs a 10 million dollar fee, there is a lot they can do. They might be recording every post in the forum so they can try and track people down. They can directly go to Dave's hosting site with a court order rather then Dave. I think Dave's site is in the US. If Dave wipes the forum, they will already have everything they want recorded. I don't mean possibly - I mean they will definitely have the posts recorded.

Is the fun of attacking Bob worth the risk? Really?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on December 01, 2016, 01:49:22 am

Quote from: amspire on December 01, 2016, 01:43:30 am

If a lawyer sniffs a 10 million dollar fee, there is a lot they can do. They might be recording every post in the forum so they can try and track people down.

Is the fun of attacking Bob worth the risk? Really?

They can record every post all they like, they can't see the IP addresses of those who published them.

And yes, people have had digs at Bob, but I can honestly put my hand up and say that I would be totally happy to repeat everything I've written about him to his face if it came down to it. Anyway, let's not digress.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on December 01, 2016, 01:57:20 am

Quote from: Halcyon on December 01, 2016, 01:49:22 am

Quote from: amspire on December 01, 2016, 01:43:30 am

If a lawyer sniffs a 10 million dollar fee, there is a lot they can do. They might be recording every post in the forum so they can try and track people down.

Is the fun of attacking Bob worth the risk? Really?

They can record every post all they like, they can't see the IP addresses of those who published them.

And yes, people have had digs at Bob, but I can honestly put my hand up and say that I would be totally happy to repeat everything I've written about him to his face if it came down to it. Anyway, let's not digress.

I hit "Post" too early, so I modified my post a bit since you replied. The thing is perhaps you may stand by everything you have said, but it does not mean you do not find you have a lawsuit to worry about. Lawyers don't really care much if your are right or wrong. They just want to know if you are a target.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on December 01, 2016, 02:24:57 am

Quote from: amspire on December 01, 2016, 01:02:37 am

Calm down. Stop the mob mentality. Stop attacking individuals just because they want to support Batteroo. Stop investigating and publicizing the details of people just because they received a Batteriser. Stop the wild speculation.

Yes, this.

Any potential reseller has a vested interest in highlighting the marketable properties and not angering the supplier. It also makes sense to talk and collaborate on joint marketing or at least an aligned marketing message.

Quote from: amspire on December 01, 2016, 01:02:37 am

The issue is the behaviour of Batteroo, not Wayne. It is obvious that Batteroo have been struggling - really struggling, and I am seeing a very strong feeling here of bloodlust - kicking someone when they are down.
...
In order to hang in, they may have told a few porkies? It happens when start-ups get desperate. There are many successful companies that survived at the start with some very dodgy behaviour.
...
The technical claims from Batteroo are misleading and insufficient, but that is the same for many other products on the market.

Yes many startups will flex timescale and present claims favourably. However, Batteroo took this to a whole new level: Overhyped claims with zero public evidence, actively evasive answers or lack of answers to direct questions, withholding information that backers had a right to know, claiming IGG campaign was ready for production. And let's not forget the whole paid dislikes episode.

It's Bateroo's actions that have caused everyone to stay interested in the story either for entertainment or as an karmic engineering debunk exercise. Let's not forget Batteroo aren't novices doing their first ever production run, these are, supposedly, senior professionals in the industry and they like to remind us of it repeatedly.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 01, 2016, 02:25:30 am

Quote

More information from Wayne:
BATTERISER / BATTEROO (new name) - what’s all the fuss about?
This article is a summary of my thoughts and opinions of the new Batteroo electronic device that is currently being launched by a US Company.
I have been following this product since its inception because of my interest in batteries.
Should the product meet my expectations, I am actually thinking of becoming a reseller or distributor in Australia. I am based in Darwin in the Northern Territory.
The Company and product are both called Batteroo.
The Batteroo is a micro-thin reusable sleeve that slots neatly over most normal disposable batteries such as common AA’s and AAA’s.
It contains patented technology which is designed to enhance the performance and / or increase the overall lifespan of batteries.
So the big question is – DOES IT WORK?
That is a big point of contention at this moment in time!

No, that has NEVER been the question. It's a DC-DC boost converter with 4 parts, we know it works, it's bread and butter stuff for electronics engineers.

Quote

There are many theories out there

No there aren't. It's a basic DC-DC boost converter. There is no magic.

Quote

and a number of people who adamantly believe that the product is a scam and will never be delivered and if it is delivered, then it won’t work.

Not a single person in the industry or on this forum has said it "won't work" as a boost converter.

Quote

The problem is who to believe?

The person with the data.

Quote

Most of the people I’ve come across have a vested interest of some sort so it’s hard to get to the bottom of it.

I and everyone else on here has ZERO vested interest in this apart from academic curiosity over some ridiculous claims.

Quote

Of course, I have a vested interest as well if I want to be a seller of the product but I have no firm commitments or agreements at this stage. Some people have been insinuating that I’m somehow involved directly with Batteroo or I’m being manipulated by them in some way. It’s amazing how a small $2.50 product can result in so much dirty politics!

When you make wild claims and then provide no data to back it up, yep, that happens.

Quote

There’s even one blog that has a complete thread which has been running for a couple of years that’s dedicated to the subject of proving that it will never be delivered or actually work.

Demonstrably untrue and completely ignorant of what this thread and mine and others videos are about.

Quote

When I followed the blog for a couple weeks, there were about 50 contributors but only a regular handful who are obsessed enough to make it a mission to see the product fail.

Rubbish, we have just been asking for over a year to for them to provide data (as they promised) to back up their extraordinary claims.

Quote

However, they are really quite insignificant in the big scheme of things.

Really? This forum has shaped the development of this product and it's claims, that's hardly insignificant.
Again and argument based on ignorance of the history here.

Quote

I think all the controversy comes down to these people continuing to focus on the same 3 main points:
1. In the early days the product was claimed to increase battery life by up to 8 times (800%). This claim was made due to the performance it showed on a couple of obscure products.

Nope, zero evidence of that was provided.

Quote

The Company has since realised that it was a brash statement to make and have taken a more moderate approach.

Nope, they still claim on the website that 80% of batteries capacity is unused. And they make no qualification for that claim.

Quote

2. They launched a crowd funding campaign on Indiegogo with a delivery date of November 2015. There was delay after delay to the point that they are only just delivering those orders now. Being a year late has not made people happy and hence the claims of it being a scam. (I got in reasonably early and mine only just arrived recently).

People questioned the claims of this product from day 1, it had nothing to do with delivery.

Quote

3. Because they did not publically disclose the inner workings of their invention, it has continued to be shrouded in mystery which has upset all the electronics buffs out there.

Rubbish.
It's a basic DC-DC converter boost converter, even Batteroo admit this. Their patent is based on the form factor of fitting it onto a sleeve.
There is ZERO mystery in how the Batteriser works.
Once again and argument ignorant of the technical facts.

Quote

Being scientists and engineers, I don’t believe the founders of the Business understood or realised the importance of communicating to their customers and keeping them up to date with the progress of the product. There should have also been more clarity and information on what the product can achieve in the real world. Most people are not really interested in detailed technical specifications. Maybe they should have had a dedicated PR person to manage it all but I guess it costs a lot of money to get something like this going from scratch?

They didn't expect to be called out on their demonstrably bullshit claims.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 01, 2016, 02:36:08 am

Quote from: Halcyon on December 01, 2016, 01:42:16 am

As for Dave himself, he hasn't said anything that can be even remotely considered defamatory and he as the forum owner cannot be held responsible for what others post.

Correct. In fact I've been very generous toward them playing devil's advocate when I had no obligation to.
If you want to talk defamation, Bob flat out accused me of being paid by Duracell in a national Newspaper.
http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/batteriser-battery-life-extender-scam-or-saviour-20150915-gjmrql.html (http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/batteriser-battery-life-extender-scam-or-saviour-20150915-gjmrql.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on December 01, 2016, 02:49:15 am

Quote from: Fungus on November 30, 2016, 09:41:40 pm

I think he actually tried to do the first test by himself but chickened out and called Bob for advice. Bob then sent him that text to post.

I still haven't decided if the two flashlights/torches were included in the parcel or not.  :popcorn: (I guess we'll never know the answer to that one though)

The obvious clue (in hindsight) was the massive hostility towards Dave. Where would that come from? You only need to watch a single EEVBLOG video to know what Dave is like.

I think me and Brumby have finally found the reasoning for the high salt content of that message... It might be Uncle Bob pulling the strings...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 01, 2016, 02:54:10 am

Quote from: rich on November 30, 2016, 10:56:32 pm

Taps draining juice into flashlights?? I've heard that somewhere else recently...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUk27EEaehY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUk27EEaehY)

Nice graphic.
Shame they don't tell you most adequately designed active load products cut out around 1V or 1.1V at worst.
That doesn't give you much extra juice out of that battery
(http://i.imgur.com/fuYLN4z.png)

Of course Batteroo admits this and his entire long technical explained video is spent explaining how it's all about the nasty current spikes in products. Again most adequately designed battery powered products don't have this issue which is why Batteroo find it so hard to demo this in everyday products.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: johndoe123 on December 01, 2016, 03:19:24 am

did they run out of money and used a text to voice software instead of hiring someone from fiverr?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 01, 2016, 05:51:14 am

New post from Wayne on his Facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/ (https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/)

REVIVE BATTERIES – A Credible and Honest Business that Sells Batteries.

I am writing this post as a matter of record to clearly explain my interest and involvement with the Batteroo Company and their Product so there can be no further doubt or speculation.

In July 2015 I pledged to buy some Batteroos (previously called Batteriser) from the crowd funding site, Indiegogo. After that, I researched the product and the people behind it extensively (including the large amounts of negativity on some select internet blogs). I thought it may have some potential, so I contacted them via email. I got a response in May this year and that led to some further emails where they agreed that I could become a reseller in my own state of the Northern Territory, Australia. There were no firm commitments by either side and it depended on the simple fact that the Batteroo was actually a viable and saleable product. In October, I happened to be in California on a holiday and was driving past the Batteroo offices so I arranged to stop in. My wife and I had a brief tour of the offices and met with a couple of the Batteroo Managers. It was just a meet and greet but we did discuss me being a stockist.

On November23, I finally received my order of Batteroos. I went onto the Indiegogo site and left a simple comment to say I had received mine and that they did in fact increase the voltage of a couple of batteries that I had quickly tested.

From that simple comment, things turned crazy. I received numerous phone calls, emails and comments on blogs. I had read a couple of blogs before but have never actually been on one before. My integrity was questioned, my honesty was questioned, my credibility was questioned, a Google street view of my house was publically posted, I was publically ridiculed, my involvement with Batteroo was speculated about and it just went on and on and is still happening now.
Quite frankly, a lot of it is defamatory to both myself and my Business and I hope it doesn’t damage my reputation. (I wonder if the administrator of a blog can be held accountable for defamatory statements of its registered members?)

Having said all this I do admit that I did not behave appropriately at all times either. The owner of the EEVblog had the nerve to email me and offer to buy my Batteroos at an inflated price when at exactly the same time he knew I was being publically questioned ridiculed by some members of his blog. They did not expect that I had read them. My email response was angry, rude and to the point and I guess I could have toned it down a bit. I also collectively called the members on the blog tossers. I also baited them by posting questionable Batteroo tests on the site.

I will publish a selection of their blog comments at the end of this post so you are able to make up your own minds.

In the meantime, I have continued to be in contact with Batteroo via email. I have asked them numerous questions about the product and how it functions. I have also raised a lot of the issues that appear on these blogs. My number one priority still remains, is it a viable product and is it something that I want to stock and sell? At this time, I still have no commitment one way or the other.

Yesterday, I had a long conference call with the entire Senior Management team of Batteroo. This was the first time I had the opportunity to meet and talk to most of them and it was a very productive call. I was impressed by their enthusiasm and energy in trying to get this product to market. They explained a lot to me and I saw some information and also some videos of tests with the Batteroo in operation. It makes a lot more sense to me now. They were also quite open and up front in recognising that in hindsight there were a lot of things they could have done better. I furnished them with a number of questions and concerns, some of them taken directly from the EEVBlog site. Most of them were covered off to my satisfaction and there are a couple of points that they are going to look into and get back to me.

I stress again, there are no commitments or deals between Revive Batteries and Batteroo at this stage. That’s not to say there won’t be in the future if I can feel confident in selling their product and they actually want to supply it to me.

Patience is the key here, this is a start up business and things don’t always go smoothly in the early days. I think all the detractors will be back peddling or going to ground in the near future if things transpire the way I think they will.

Thanks for your time,
Wayne.
Revive Batteries.

Some random comments from the EEVblog:
(The Bob referred to below is the CEO of Batteroo – I had never met him or spoken to him until yesterday’s conference call)

“Wayne doesn't strike me as an EEVBLOG reader but...
...he knew exactly who Dave was. He new that Dave had been badmouthing” “Batteriser. That Dave was The Enemy. How does that work if you're just a random person who received some Batterisers in the post?
And the conclusion he got from Dave's videos was that Dave is a "Complete Tosser"? Nah, I reckon he was primed to think that by somebody.”

“I enjoyed driving by his house via Google.”

“Has anyone considered that Wayne might have a NDA with Bob.”

“Can't say I blame Wayne. Some of the crap that was dumped on him was personal and derived completely from speculation.”

“Is Wayne complicit in any of the Batteroo debacle...? Personally, I don't think so. His responses so far are entirely consistent with someone who has seen a product and wants to give it a go - and is getting pissed off at people who want to give him a hard time about it.”

“At this point, I can see a lot of the negative comments against Wayne as being a simple case of jealousy and sour grapes.... "He has a Batteroo sleeve and I don't!!". I don't blame him for his response - the guy is getting bombarded.”

“And in my opinion, it is time for you and the rest to stop hassling Wayne and psychoanalyzing him without a license or even his permission.”

“If anything, I'd say *he's* the one that's been antagonistic, from the start in fact.”

“I don't know if Wayne is complicit or a dupe, it's impossible to judge.
I do know there's no way in hell Wayne was chosen randomly to receive the only-known box of Batterisers. Bob chose him specifically.”

“His latest comment on IGG reads more like something Bob would say rather than the robust-talking Wayne we are so familiar with on this forum.”

“Looks like Wayne is still helping to protect Bob's reputation on IGG”

“Wayne has posted more nonsensical ramblings on IGG and Facebook.....”

“It's confirmed. Wayne is firmly in the Batteroo camp.”

“I don't know, this doesn't sound like something Wayne would write. Maybe Bob wrote it for him?”

“It's all fancy English, not a single Aussie curse word or mention of 'beer' in the entire thing. He also says "flashlight" instead of "torch", etc.”

“But I have little doubt that all revivebatteries accounts, on facebook, on IGG an here really do belong to Wayne. But it's clear he works together with Batteroo now (just as others stated)”

“100% not his words, his write-up, or his evaluation... All his other references were to it being a "torch" cos that's what it is....”

“I told you so! Wayne has his nose so far up Bob's ass that when Bob wipes his butt, Wayne's mouth goes dry.”

“Wayne is definitely doing some sort of PR or damage control for Butterooter. Like I theorized before, he is definitely involved with Butterooter. “

“Very suspect...”

“Wow... So, Wayne turned out to have an agenda? I'm shocked. Shocked.”

“Not sure if I'd call it an agenda, but he does have a vested interest - something which he has declared.”

“I really think that everybody bagging Wayne have lost touch with reality.”

“Calm down. Stop the mob mentality. Stop attacking individuals just because they want to support Batteroo. Stop investigating and publicizing the details of people just because they received a Batteriser. Stop the wild speculation.”

“As for Batteroo lawyers launching any kind of defamation suit against anyone on this forum, good luck with that. They would have almost no hope in subpoenaing any identifying information on anyone on this forum (except for those who live in the USA). I'm sure Dave could just as quickly hit the 'delete' button on the log file containing people's IP addresses (or replacing them with false ones).”

“He didn't ask to be attacked in this forum, and he probably does want to be a distributor.”

“If a lawyer sniffs a 10 million dollar fee, there is a lot they can do. They might be recording every post in the forum so they can try and track people down. They can directly go to Dave's hosting site with a court order rather then Dave. I think Dave's site is in the US. If Dave wipes the forum, they will already have everything they want recorded. I don't mean possibly - I mean they will definitely have the posts recorded.”

And so on it goes.........................

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 01, 2016, 06:20:21 am

Quote

(I wonder if the administrator of a blog can be held accountable for defamatory statements of its registered members?)

Can YouTube be held accountable for what people post in its comments section?

Quote

I also baited them by posting questionable Batteroo tests on the site.

That's not very nice, if that was the case. Why not just post accurate information? Dave will be the FIRST to admit he was mistaken if presented with reliable independent data (better yet a Batteriser to run standard tests!)

Quote

I furnished them with a number of questions and concerns, some of them taken directly from the EEVBlog site. Most of them were covered off to my satisfaction and there are a couple of points that they are going to look into and get back to me.

What on earth did they tell you?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on December 01, 2016, 06:39:03 am

Wayne,

So you don't have to sift through this now drivel of a thread, the engineers here have always had an issue with the *claims* that Batteroo has made.  No reasonable person thinks the *device* won't act as a voltage booster. It will. The *claims* Bob and Frankie made about the leftover capacity in a battery that is determined to be depleted in the devices they cited is pure, demonstrable baloney. I've bought several of the devices and done the tests, as have others here.

No reasonable person doubts the usefulness and benefit of a boost converter. That's why engineers build them into so many devices. The simple truth is, when talking about consumer devices, it is HARD to find a currently-produced piece of consumer electronics that doesn't do a good to excellent job of using the energy available in its battery(ies). Most of us older folks know that this was *not* always so, and the many devices used to poorly manage their battery use. But this matter has been largely solved for a couple of decades now.

What we doubt, with just cause, is the usefulness of attaching a boost converter to a device that is already designed to obtain the most power out of a battery possible. For many of the consumer devices used as examples by Batteroo, the useful energy available to the device with the Batteriser will be less, not more. It just comes down to the simple thermodynamics of it. The extra conversion process wastes energy. Plain and simple.

If Batteroo had not made claims that were outrageously silly at the outset and just built a battery sleeve that solves a real issue for legacy and niche devices, I, Dave, and many other folks would have said either nothing, or "Job well done, sirs.  Carry on."

That's the simple truth.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 01, 2016, 06:53:24 am

About all this lawsuit nonsense - I'd understand if they were going after Dave, but as has been pointed out by others, he has said nothing close to defamatory and quite the opposite in fact! Forum owners are not legally responsible for what its members post. This is well established.

Is there seriously a discussion about suing random people in all different countries for saying mean things about you on the Internet?

Talk about an EPIC way to throw away hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not millions!) in lawyers' fees. Let alone the PR nightmare...

There's got to be a reasonable expectation for criticism if you run a CrowdFunding campaign and take Average Joe's money, run 18 months+ behind what was promised, all while having almost ZERO worthwhile communication on the developments of the product.

Also did everyone forget the nasty personal comments from Ali? Talks of tracking people down and "dumpsters"?? And the YouTube video of Dave? And all the off colour YouTube comments from their "Fan Page"??

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 01, 2016, 07:36:12 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 01, 2016, 06:39:03 am

If Batteroo had not made claims that were outrageously silly at the outset and just built a battery sleeve that solves a real issue for legacy and niche devices, I, Dave, and many other folks would have said either nothing, or "Job well done, sirs.  Carry on."

Yep, and I said so in my first busting video and actually praised their physical design.
I have never sad a single bad word about Bob personally, only doubting the outrageous claims of their product and that of remaining battery capacity, and all of it evidence based.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 01, 2016, 07:39:46 am

Wayne please convey our compliments to your entire staff for exceeding their goals (hours on the sex toy) for the last month.  It was truly a commendable performance. I know these things do not happen without a great deal of effort on the part of everyone, and I want you to know how much we appreciate your hard work.  It appears that your emphasis on regular testing sessions has paid dividends (pleasure). Keep up the good work. We are proud of your entire team.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 01, 2016, 07:44:14 am

Everyone, can we simply forget about Wayne and what he has to say about the whole thing? He does not represent Batteriser in any way nor the product.
Talking about him and what he's saying on Facebook does not seem to add any value here.
If he posts public test data then great, re-post it here and we'll discuss the data, but otherwise it's only going to reflect negatively upon this forum.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 01, 2016, 07:52:58 am

^  I'm with him so you'll have to chuck us both out.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 01, 2016, 08:15:20 am

Another one:
(http://i.imgur.com/2VbwMPY.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 01, 2016, 08:32:26 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 01, 2016, 08:15:20 am

Another one:
(http://i.imgur.com/2VbwMPY.png)

First USA arrival    :clap: :clap: :clap:   Looks legit.

Question:  If you hold the battery in your hand (ie no load) and read a 1.2 v on the cell (under  the sleeve) would the batterizer also read 1.2 v because no current is flowing therefore no boost?   The current drain of the meter is too low to turn on the booster?

In other words to test useful voltages the battery has to be under a load?   How much current is needed to turn it on?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on December 01, 2016, 08:58:54 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 01, 2016, 08:32:26 am

Question:  If you hold the battery in your hand (ie no load) and read a 1.2 v on the cell (under  the sleeve) would the batterizer also read 1.2 v because no current is flowing therefore no boost?   The current drain of the meter is too low to turn on the booster?

At no load, I would guess it is 1.5v out. The output capacitor will charge until it reaches 1.5v and then the duty cycle drops to zero. At this point, the regulator may only be using microamps.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 01, 2016, 10:26:06 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 01, 2016, 08:32:26 am

Question:  If you hold the battery in your hand (ie no load) and read a 1.2 v on the cell (under  the sleeve) would the batterizer also read 1.2 v because no current is flowing therefore no boost?   The current drain of the meter is too low to turn on the booster?
In other words to test useful voltages the battery has to be under a load?   How much current is needed to turn it on?

No, it shouldn't need a load.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 01, 2016, 10:40:23 am

Sweet, they're out in the wild. Only a matter of time now!!   :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 01, 2016, 10:42:52 am

Quote from: quad on December 01, 2016, 10:40:23 am

Sweet, they're out in the wild. Only a matter of time now!!   :)

I should start gathering gear and test rigs  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on December 01, 2016, 11:34:03 am

Oh my, finally a sighting of Batteroo in the wild? quick! get the debunking gun!
wait... it has already been debunked... hmmmm ???

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on December 01, 2016, 11:37:53 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 01, 2016, 10:42:52 am

Quote from: quad on December 01, 2016, 10:40:23 am

Sweet, they're out in the wild. Only a matter of time now!!   :)

I should start gathering gear and test rigs  ;D

And make sure you have the bin nearby for when the tests have been completed :)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: fubar.gr on December 01, 2016, 11:51:12 am

If the Bateroo is boosting voltage 24/7 even when no load is connected, wouldnt that   drain the battery fairly quickly?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 01, 2016, 11:52:21 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 01, 2016, 07:44:14 am

Everyone, can we simply forget about Wayne and what he has to say about the whole thing? He does not represent Batteriser in any way nor the product.

I think we can all agree that:
a) "Represent" or otherwise, he's best friends with Bob.
and
b) No useful information is going to come from that direction. At best some time-wasting experiments that stop half way though for some reason or other.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 01, 2016, 12:00:43 pm

Quote from: fubar.gr on December 01, 2016, 11:51:12 am

If the Bateroo is boosting voltage 24/7 even when no load is connected, wouldnt that   drain the battery fairly quickly?

I've got some $0.35 DC boosters from eBay that go into standby mode when there's less than 1mA draw. In standby mode they use about 60uA (measured by me). At that rate it would take three years to drain a Duracell. It's a drain, yes, but it's not a problem.

Can Batteriser achieve that? Who knows? You'd think Bob would publish figures, but... nooooo.   :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 01, 2016, 12:39:08 pm

Quote from: fubar.gr on December 01, 2016, 11:51:12 am

If the Bateroo is boosting voltage 24/7 even when no load is connected, wouldnt that   drain the battery fairly quickly?

Nope. If they are the least bit competent then it should only be uA's of quiescent current. It would have been part of the spec.
Low quiescent boost converters are common.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on December 01, 2016, 12:50:12 pm

Hi,
Over a year ago I built a circuit which should be a pretty close approximation to a Batteriser. The test results are documented in this message:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739968/#msg739968 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/msg739968/#msg739968)

The one unit I tested had a no-load input current like this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-project-a-batterruser/?action=dlattach;attach=167621;image)

If you accept 30uA as the average current draw over the life of the battery and a good quality AA cell (Duracell or similar) has a capacity of 2400mAh.

The battery life at no load is 2400m/30u = 80,000 hours

80,000 hours = 3333 days = 9.1 years

This is based on my boost circuit. We need to get a quiescent current measurement of the real Batteriser.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

+1 for discussing the technical issues only.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 01, 2016, 01:00:42 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 01, 2016, 11:52:21 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 01, 2016, 07:44:14 am

Everyone, can we simply forget about Wayne and what he has to say about the whole thing? He does not represent Batteriser in any way nor the product.

I think we can all agree that:
a) "Represent" or otherwise, he's best friends with Bob.

I don't see how him conversing with Batteroo necessarily makes him 'best friends' with Bob.  If he is seeking the option to become a distributor, then he is certainly going to be cultivating an amicable business relationship.  Having an open mind about the sleeve kinda goes with that.  This statement is speculative.

Quote

and
b) No useful information is going to come from that direction. At best some time-wasting experiments that stop half way though for some reason or other.

In engineering terms, I agree any information tended is likely to be inconclusive - but it might well be the sort of thing that could click with the public.  And that's the thing ... the success or otherwise of the Batteroo sleeve will not come from a datasheet - it will come from the perception from the people who will buy them.  Engineers will be able to explain that result.


I do agree, however, that we don't need to drag Wayne through any more mud.  We really should be focussing on the sleeve - and since there seems to be more of them surfacing, I would imagine the opportunity for Dave to get his hands on some will come soon enough.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 01, 2016, 01:03:44 pm

I was going to say something about quiescent current - but there's no need now.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on December 01, 2016, 01:57:17 pm

Quote from: quad on December 01, 2016, 05:51:14 am

REVIVE BATTERIES – A Credible and Honest Business that Sells Batteries.

:-DD :-DD :bullshit:

Can Credible, Honest, and Business that Sells Batteries be in the same sentence?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on December 01, 2016, 02:00:19 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 01, 2016, 01:00:42 pm

In engineering terms, I agree any information tended is likely to be inconclusive - but it might well be the sort of thing that could click with the public.  And that's the thing ... the success or otherwise of the Batteroo sleeve will not come from a datasheet - it will come from the perception from the people who will buy them.  Engineers will be able to explain that result.

But will they? There's a discussion been going on elsewhere on the board about bad writing in science. I'm sorry to say that a lot, possibly the majority, of scientists and engineers are lousy at communicating science and engineering to the general public. We make a lot of assumptions and tend to come at a topic with baggage.

For example. It's obvious to you and me that in a torch there's a time/brightness trade off that affects battery life and that's the kind of assumption that we take into a conversation with the general public. A member of the general public will most probably not innately understand that and fail to see an argument against the Batteroo that depends on that assumption.

There's a real art to 'popular science' journalism or advocacy that treads a fine line between explaining important assumptions, not providing too much information, putting things in terms that the public can understand, not over simplifying etcetera. Consider how many politicians still don't get that you can have secure cryptography or back doors but not both, and yet they've had advice from some of the worlds foremost experts. If you can't explain something to a bunch of generally intelligent people that's vital to public security and safety (i.e. they have a strong incentive to get it right) then what are the chances with the general public?

Don't get me wrong, it is possible, but the presentation has to be made by a person with the right skill set and is much, much harder to do than one might first think. One needs to boil the whole thing down to where it could be presented in a three minute spot in a video or TV consumer issues programme and the general public would still 'get it'. That to my mind is a tall order.

I'll leave you with an example from my own life. I used to be in the ISP business and I also used to be a tech writer. Back in my ISP days I'd see a lot of support calls that had at their nub a lack of customer understanding of DNS - what it did and how it worked. I set out to write a short explainer that the support staff could fire off at customers who had problems. If I'd been writing it for thee and me, generally techie people, I could have rattled it off in an afternoon. Targeting it at a general audience meant that it took about three days actual writing and then several rounds of making sure that the target audience 'got it' and revising accordingly. I'm a quick writer, I used to bang out 20-40 thousand 'publication ready' words a month and actually edit a magazine section at the same time, but the level of meticulous care needed in getting a highly technical subject just right for a general audience increased the workload by at least a factor of five.

For the avoidance of doubt I am not volunteering. I doubt I'm the man and moreover my late father, a former regular army sergeant, would be horrified if his son hadn't learned the basic lesson of "never volunteer for anything" from his dad.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on December 01, 2016, 02:36:13 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 01, 2016, 01:00:42 pm

(...)  And that's the thing ... the success or otherwise of the Batteroo sleeve will not come from a datasheet - it will come from the perception from the people who will buy them.  Engineers will be able to explain that result.

At the start, yes, you are right. In the medium\long run, however, the product has to satisfy that perception. If the product falls short on the promises, those almost 8,000 IGG backers might be all the customers Batteroo will ever have. Marketing specialists will help engineers explain that!   ;)

Back to the technical aspects, I was wondering if a electronic load with logging capabilities could help compare the performance of the batteroo with a regular battery, using two batteries from the same package. Suppose the e-load could use a fixed current and power, and let voltage vary in time, and have all these variables logged.  Would that be a proper test? Specifically, this (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/help-choosing-opamp/) and this are what I have in mind:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/help-choosing-opamp/?action=dlattach;attach=274726;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 01, 2016, 02:40:08 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 01, 2016, 01:00:42 pm

In engineering terms, I agree any information tended is likely to be inconclusive - but it might well be the sort of thing that could click with the public.  And that's the thing ... the success or otherwise of the Batteroo sleeve will not come from a datasheet - it will come from the perception from the people who will buy them.  Engineers will be able to explain that result.

If it was 'conclusive' in public terms then why all the secrecy from Bob? Why all those deceptive videos? Just show 20 gadgets running longer, job done.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 01, 2016, 03:22:28 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on December 01, 2016, 02:36:13 pm

Back to the technical aspects, I was wondering if a electronic load with logging capabilities could help compare the performance of the batteroo with a regular battery, using two batteries from the same package. Suppose the e-load could use a fixed current and power, and let voltage vary in time, and have all these variables logged.  Would that be a proper test? Specifically, this (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/help-choosing-opamp/) and this are what I have in mind:

Looks good, Vbus would then connected to the output of the sleeve? What does R2 and C18?

And in addition to the current, you should measure the output voltage of the battery and the voltage after the sleeve. No need for complex logging with SD card etc., I would just output the 3 numbers on the serial console and then save it and display some nice curves in a spreadsheet program, as I did here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg743529/#msg743529 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg743529/#msg743529)

Using the reference voltage source makes it more accurate than my solution (especially because the MAX6126 has a very low temperature coefficient, much better than needed for the ADCs), but you should calibrate it, too.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on December 01, 2016, 05:06:25 pm

Quote from: quad on December 01, 2016, 06:53:24 am

...
There's got to be a reasonable expectation for criticism if you run a CrowdFunding campaign and take Average Joe's money, run 18 months+ behind what was promised, all while having almost ZERO worthwhile communication on the developments of the product.
...

 I think this says it all. Had Bob & Co simply been up front and honest over all this time instead of every month promising to ship and then coming up with yet another excuse to push it off, a lot of this fiasco could have been avoided. Would people complain about the delays? Of course they still would. But if FREQUENT HONEST answers were provided, there wouldn't have been all sorts of crazy speculation. This thread wouldn't be 278 pages and growing (ok, so we would have less entertainment, and eaten a lot less popcorn  :popcorn: ). There wouldn't have been any reason to doubt that someone actually had product in hand once it finally did ship.
 It's been said over and over - I don;t think anyoen here douts that the thing WORKS - at question is the level they claim it will work vs physical reality. The REAL fiasco here has been the lack of communications and vague excuses when there has been communications.
 I once worked for a company run by two partners. One was completely honest and open about what was going on in the business. The other was like Bob - no one needs to know anything, it's being handled, don't worry about it. After a number of years, the friction between the two became too great and they decided to dissolve the partnership. The Bob-like partner would agree to a separation under one condition - he got me as an employee. The other partner could have everyone else.  The first partner was planning to carry on the business as is, the Bob guy was going to start a new company in a similar line of work (we were a computer consulting company). Bob (not his real name but it works here) would frequently take me to lunch and talk about how great this new venture he was working on was going to be, how he had a really great business plan and it was all set, and with my help it would soar. But he never shared any of this business plan, not even what he was really doing. Which, it turns out, was buying a company that specialized in accounting software and adding the computer and networking part (me, as sole employee with that skill set at first). Long story short, I found another job because I didn't want to work for this guy for many reasons, but I planned to give him a month notice so he could at least get his venture off the ground. But then he  went back and forth over some really minor details about the split and it dragged on for 3 more weeks before they both signed the papers. So he got 1 week out of me (I had already committed a start date with my new company). He was of course not happy at all (he even attempted to not pay me for the week I worked there, but one call from a lawyer fixed that) - but this is how secretive he was about everything - I did not know the name of the company nor the address until AFTER the separation papers were signed! The total lack of any real communications throughout this Batteroo fiasco just reminded me of that period in my life.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amirm on December 01, 2016, 06:06:45 pm

On quiescent current, back in 1980s I designed a product that did not have a true off button but rather, would go to sleep, consuming microamps.  It ran on four AA cells.  I was worried that this current consumption would shorten the battery life.  To my surprise I found documentation from Duracell that said consumption of tiny amount of current actually lengthened the battery life than not using it at all!  Did not dig into the reason why and quick search now shows nothing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 01, 2016, 06:39:36 pm

Another!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=274951;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 01, 2016, 07:57:36 pm

Quote from: amirm on December 01, 2016, 06:06:45 pm

On quiescent current, back in 1980s I designed a product that did not have a true off button but rather, would go to sleep, consuming microamps.  It ran on four AA cells.  I was worried that this current consumption would shorten the battery life.  To my surprise I found documentation from Duracell that said consumption of tiny amount of current actually lengthened the battery life than not using it at all!  Did not dig into the reason why and quick search now shows nothing.

My gut feeling is that this is true.  Some of our friends should test this theory.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 01, 2016, 08:02:30 pm

Quote from: amirm on December 01, 2016, 06:06:45 pm

On quiescent current, back in 1980s I designed a product that did not have a true off button but rather, would go to sleep, consuming microamps.  It ran on four AA cells.  I was worried that this current consumption would shorten the battery life.  To my surprise I found documentation from Duracell that said consumption of tiny amount of current actually lengthened the battery life than not using it at all!  Did not dig into the reason why and quick search now shows nothing.

Could be.

The self-discharge rate is generally higher than a few dozen microamps. Maybe drawing a a tiny amount of current can help the internal chemistry stay in good shape.

OTOH: This isn't the 1980s any more and shelf lives of batteries have gone up since then.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 02, 2016, 12:33:47 am

Quote from: Cerebus on December 01, 2016, 02:00:19 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 01, 2016, 01:00:42 pm

In engineering terms, I agree any information tended is likely to be inconclusive - but it might well be the sort of thing that could click with the public.  And that's the thing ... the success or otherwise of the Batteroo sleeve will not come from a datasheet - it will come from the perception from the people who will buy them.  Engineers will be able to explain that result.

But will they? There's a discussion been going on elsewhere on the board about bad writing in science. I'm sorry to say that a lot, possibly the majority, of scientists and engineers are lousy at communicating science and engineering to the general public. We make a lot of assumptions and tend to come at a topic with baggage.

You have made an assumption in my statement.  It was not an unreasonable assumption and with it, you are quite right, of course.  Perhaps I should have added one more sentence which better sets out my thoughts ....

Engineers will be able to explain that result.  Whether they will be able to explain it to the understanding and satisfaction to a broad audience is another thing.


The fact that we have had this little exchange is an example of just the sort of issues that can crop up in communication.  Trivial differences in understanding at the start of a discussion point can lead to dramatic chasms and wholesale confusion.  The "Butterfly Effect" is exceptionally strong in the field of communication.

When assumed knowledge, individual experience and personal bias are included - it's no wonder communication becomes a challenge.  Add to that agendas, vested interests and self-defence and it's a wonder we get anywhere in a discussion.

Then there's my favourite factor - the communication medium.  From TV, radio, conferences, small group discussions and one-on-one to written correspondence and the now familiar social media and forum platforms, there are pros and cons.

If we just take a forum such as this, then we are having semi real-time conversations, but without the body language cues and vocal intonation of a face to face conversation.  The information that is not communicated because of this can be significant - and it can be critical to the path a discussion takes.  I liken it to trying to appreciate opera via teletype.


Yes, engineers will be able to explain Batteroo results - but they may have a problem doing so effectively to the general public.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 02, 2016, 01:36:24 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 01, 2016, 07:57:36 pm

My gut feeling is that this is true.  Some of our friends should test this theory.

Testing that practically takes years.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Someone on December 02, 2016, 01:48:23 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 02, 2016, 01:36:24 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 01, 2016, 07:57:36 pm

My gut feeling is that this is true.  Some of our friends should test this theory.

Testing that practically takes years.

It can be done in a few months if you pre discharge cells to known points, then you can get data across the entire life. But it requires huge numbers of cells to get reliable results multiplied by the time compression factor you want to achieve.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 02, 2016, 01:54:52 am

Considering the age and evolution of the battery industry, it would not seem unreasonable to believe that tests like these have has been done - and on more than one occasion.  The Duracell reference is one I would like to see - and perhaps any other examples, if they are anywhere to be found.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 02, 2016, 01:55:51 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 02, 2016, 01:36:24 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 01, 2016, 07:57:36 pm

My gut feeling is that this is true.  Some of our friends should test this theory.

Testing that practically takes years.

I know so someone should start now so we will still be alive when the results come in   :-DD

I think a very low current keeps the electrons aligned and in order.  If no current they get dis-organized and loose their purpose in life.
Like raising children.  So someone should do a study on the moral values of electrons.

I wonder if anyone has tried to contact the "guy" from the US and offered him a $1,000 for a set?  Now we have an Italian, Brit, Aussie (hope this is not a bad term), and a Yank.  This has become an international show.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 02, 2016, 02:00:12 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 02, 2016, 01:55:51 am

Aussie (hope this is not a bad term), and a Yank.

Aussie is quite OK.  It's pretty much embraced with pride.

It holds none of the risk you might encounter calling someone who's from the South - a Yank.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on December 02, 2016, 02:07:10 am

Actually, I find that quite feasable. Working a lot with LiIon etc, at one stage I found that applying a tiny +/- pulse every so often, conditioned the cells.
I am currently testing that on an SLA design. After all, we have a case of big fat floating chemicals just hanging around with nothing to do, always a worry.  :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 02, 2016, 02:38:24 am

Quote from: Someone on December 02, 2016, 01:48:23 am

It can be done in a few months if you pre discharge cells to known points, then you can get data across the entire life. But it requires huge numbers of cells to get reliable results multiplied by the time compression factor you want to achieve.

There is some value in accelerated testing, but ultimately it's not a true measure.
And if you want to do it properly you need different batches etc and a reasonably climate controlled environment.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CJay on December 02, 2016, 07:57:40 am

Nobody seems to have asked the most important question of all.

Batteriseroo seem to have chosen the single worst logistics company in the world, evarrr, can we find out who they are so we can all avoid them?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mc172 on December 02, 2016, 08:34:20 am

Yodel.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 02, 2016, 09:32:25 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 01, 2016, 08:15:20 am

Another one:
(http://i.imgur.com/2VbwMPY.png)

Is that 5 now? Of the many thousands that have been shipped?

Weirdly enough nobody is posting photos, unboxing videos, blog entries, nothing. I don't know what percentage of the population actually does that, but... I'm not seeing undeniable evidence of a mass global shipping yet.

(and people on indiegogo are still asking how to send their shipping address to Bob so they can get theirs).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 02, 2016, 09:34:08 am

Quote from: CJay on December 02, 2016, 07:57:40 am

Nobody seems to have asked the most important question of all.

Batteriseroo seem to have chosen the single worst logistics company in the world, evarrr, can we find out who they are so we can all avoid them?

Give them a chance. Writing labels by hand and standing in line at the post office takes time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CJay on December 02, 2016, 09:54:56 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 02, 2016, 09:34:08 am

Quote from: CJay on December 02, 2016, 07:57:40 am

Nobody seems to have asked the most important question of all.

Batteriseroo seem to have chosen the single worst logistics company in the world, evarrr, can we find out who they are so we can all avoid them?

Give them a chance. Writing labels by hand and standing in line at the post office takes time.

Even that's quicker than this, I'm thinking they must be training a delivery pigeon for each order.

They might be better off with a swallow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7iXw9zZrLo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7iXw9zZrLo)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on December 02, 2016, 02:16:05 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 02, 2016, 09:34:08 am

Give them a chance. Writing labels by hand and standing in line at the post office takes time.

Are they also waiting for delivery confirmation on each one before they send the next?  Seems like it!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 02, 2016, 02:35:16 pm

I agree that it seems like deliveries are occurring at a glacial pace - but not everyone is going to announce their arrival to the world ... especially with the sort of reception they might expect.

I can see the average Joe wanting to try them out in private - and if they don't measure up, discreetly forget about them.  Saves the embarrassment.  Those who do find benefit from them are more likely to say so - but even then, they may be reluctant for fear of being howled down.


Let's not wear ourselves out by jumping to any more conclusions.  After having endured more than a year of waiting, I would think a little more patience is not too much of an ask.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on December 02, 2016, 05:05:24 pm

My guesstimate is that

- 1 person out of 100 will mention receiving the Batterisers on the internet.
- 1 person out of 1000 will make a some sort of video and publish it on the internet.

My figures may be optimistic.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on December 02, 2016, 05:10:46 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 02, 2016, 02:35:16 pm

I agree that it seems like deliveries are occurring at a glacial pace - but not everyone is going to announce their arrival to the world ... especially with the sort of reception they might expect.

I can see the average Joe wanting to try them out in private - and if they don't measure up, discreetly forget about them.  Saves the embarrassment.  Those who do find benefit from them are more likely to say so - but even then, they may be reluctant for fear of being howled down.


Let's not wear ourselves out by jumping to any more conclusions.  After having endured more than a year of waiting, I would think a little more patience is not too much of an ask.

Uh, out of 300+ they've sent out, only 5 people have reported in, despite the letter in the box specifically asking people to take photos and post them upon receipt... Yeah, that totally seems plausible....

You know what's more plausible? They've only actually shipped 10-ish units!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on December 02, 2016, 05:29:44 pm

Hard to believe delivery is done via UPS.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ontaelio on December 02, 2016, 06:38:23 pm

It seems to me that the circus is suddenly turning into an evil ugliness.
I'm a journalist, and hopefully a good one, and from Russia to boot, so I guess I'm pretty good at detecting hoaxes when I see them. And in here I clearly see an ugly hoax meant to discredit EEVblog, so that these 'serial interpreneurs' get their Wallmart contract and consequently sell their 'business' to some unsuspecting fat wallet. I see an obvious case of black PR, and sadly I also see that the forum members (Dave included) fell for it.
Come on! Wake up! People, you're being had!
I would have liked to dissect this hoax in clear detail, but Dave asked to avoid mentioning the Australian person that can not be mentioned. But IMHO this is serious, they are perfectly capable of ruining Dave's reputation if he doesn't take any countermeasures.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 02, 2016, 06:48:58 pm

Quote from: Bud on December 02, 2016, 05:29:44 pm

Hard to believe delivery is done via UPS.

UPS is my favorite and is used by Amazon

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on December 02, 2016, 07:03:09 pm

From the US to the US destinations - i guess could be ok. From the US to rest of the world and even Canada itis expensive.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on December 02, 2016, 07:05:35 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 02, 2016, 02:35:16 pm

I can see the average Joe wanting to try them out in private - and if they don't measure up, discreetly forget about them.  Saves the embarrassment. 

If that is indeed they case, they could well have delivered thousands by now!  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on December 02, 2016, 07:12:17 pm

Quote from: timb on December 02, 2016, 05:10:46 pm

You know what's more plausible? They've only actually shipped 10-ish units!

And out of those ~10 recipients, only that Aussie-who-must-not-be-named has any sort of camera.

Quote from: ez24 on December 02, 2016, 06:48:58 pm

Quote from: Bud on December 02, 2016, 05:29:44 pm

Hard to believe delivery is done via UPS.

UPS is my favorite and is used by Amazon

I like UPS too. The thing is that they are just too expensive for a company that supposedly is looking for money and has a cheap product.

Quote from: Ontaelio on December 02, 2016, 06:38:23 pm

It seems to me that the circus is suddenly turning into an evil ugliness.
I'm a journalist, and hopefully a good one, and from Russia to boot, so I guess I'm pretty good at detecting hoaxes when I see them. And in here I clearly see an ugly hoax meant to discredit EEVblog, so that these 'serial interpreneurs' get their Wallmart contract and consequently sell their 'business' to some unsuspecting fat wallet. I see an obvious case of black PR, and sadly I also see that the forum members (Dave included) fell for it.
Come on! Wake up! People, you're being had!
I would have liked to dissect this hoax in clear detail, but Dave asked to avoid mentioning the Australian person that can not be mentioned. But IMHO this is serious, they are perfectly capable of ruining Dave's reputation if he doesn't take any countermeasures.

You make almost perfect sense - at least to me. Batteroo, however, is not likely to ruin EEVBlog's or Dave's reputation, because those in EEVBlog's target audience know what Dave is all about: no-bullshit, no-nonsense technical analysis of Batteroo, based on physics, science and electronics engineering. Those who might think otherwise about Dave really don't matter to Dave, to EEVBlog, to the EE industry, to the electronics market or whoever. The way I see it, a lot more people know about EEVBlog than about Batteroo, and some of those who know about Batteroo only do so because of this thread, therefore know beforehand what Batteroo and Bob are about.

I don't think this is a hoax. A scam for sure, but not a hoax.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 02, 2016, 08:03:22 pm

Quote from: Kalvin on December 02, 2016, 05:05:24 pm

My guesstimate is that

- 1 person out of 100 will mention receiving the Batterisers on the internet.
- 1 person out of 1000 will make a some sort of video and publish it on the internet.

My figures may be optimistic.

Sure, but:
a) We know there's several EEVBLOG readers among the recipients (I forget exactly who)
b) They've shipped $130,000+ worth of Batterisers (according to Bob)
c) Bob hasn't asked people for their shipping addresses (IGG comments is full of people desperately posting their addresses).
d) Why manufacture them in China then post them from the USA at $20 per parcel. China post will send them for a fraction of that direct from the factory.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 02, 2016, 08:40:12 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 02, 2016, 08:03:22 pm

d) Why manufacture them in China then post them from the USA at $20 per parcel. China post will send them for a fraction of that direct from the factory.

To keep us in suspense

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 02, 2016, 09:29:41 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 02, 2016, 02:35:16 pm

I agree that it seems like deliveries are occurring at a glacial pace - but not everyone is going to announce their arrival to the world ... especially with the sort of reception they might expect.
I can see the average Joe wanting to try them out in private - and if they don't measure up, discreetly forget about them.  Saves the embarrassment.  Those who do find benefit from them are more likely to say so - but even then, they may be reluctant for fear of being howled down.

Sure, only a small percentage will reply. But I know a lot of people on here who ordered these just out of interest, including someone with one of the first order numbers in teens. Not a single one of these people has gotten an email shipping notice or the units. Something isn't right, statistics would have guaranteed that someone on here would have gotten theirs by now.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ontaelio on December 02, 2016, 09:32:31 pm

I personally prefer to stick to the facts. And the facts, after reading the last 30 or so pages of this forum, are:

1. There is absolutely NO evidence of any backers receiving Batteroos as reward for the campaign;
2. There is absolutely NO evidence of any attempt on Batteroos part to actually send them (no address requests);
3. No independent reviewer has managed to lay hands on a single Batteroo unit EVER;
4. In fact, there is NO evidence of any mass production of these sleeves to cover all the orders.

These are solid facts. There are two pretty dodgy cases of someone actually receiving something, but
a) these guys are shop owners;
b) the stuff they 'received' bears the Batteriser logo, so it can be (and, I am sure, is) early prototypes;
c) they are strangely elusive, even when money is on the table.

My opionion: there are NO Batteroos, nor there will be unless Bob & his cronies actually secure this Wallmart deal. And all the recent noise is aimed at this particular target. And one of the important things for them to do is to make independent busting/debunking at least questionable.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 02, 2016, 09:33:53 pm

Quote from: Ontaelio on December 02, 2016, 06:38:23 pm

But IMHO this is serious, they are perfectly capable of ruining Dave's reputation if he doesn't take any countermeasures.

 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 02, 2016, 09:43:36 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 02, 2016, 09:29:41 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 02, 2016, 02:35:16 pm

I agree that it seems like deliveries are occurring at a glacial pace - but not everyone is going to announce their arrival to the world ... especially with the sort of reception they might expect.
I can see the average Joe wanting to try them out in private - and if they don't measure up, discreetly forget about them.  Saves the embarrassment.  Those who do find benefit from them are more likely to say so - but even then, they may be reluctant for fear of being howled down.

Sure, only a small percentage will reply. But I know a lot of people on here who ordered these just out of interest, including someone with one of the first order numbers in teens. Not a single one of these people has gotten an email shipping notice or the units. Something isn't right, statistics would have guaranteed that someone on here would have gotten theirs by now.

Yep. Bob is definitely messing around.

Most (all?) of the people posting "I got mine!" on IndieGoGo are people who have posted in the past defending Batteroo.

My latest $0.02 is that Bob has a few dozen prototypes form last year and is sending out a couple of parcels per week to people he thinks/knows are Batteroo friendly. Just enough to keep the IGG comments section alive. Not enough that there's a real danger of any landing in the enemy camp.

Why? I just don't believe he's done a new batch. Why would you play games if you were sitting on the goods? Wouldn't you hold a "Batteroo is here!" press conference with plenty of pictures then start shipping as fast as possible to silence the critics?

PS: Regarding the venture capital money... I just remembered that Bob is working from the SK building. If he really had a huge pile of Batterisers in the office he could simply show them to SK(!) No need to play games down at the post office.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 02, 2016, 09:44:55 pm

Quote from: Ontaelio on December 02, 2016, 06:38:23 pm

It seems to me that the circus is suddenly turning into an evil ugliness.
I'm a journalist, and hopefully a good one, and from Russia to boot, so I guess I'm pretty good at detecting hoaxes when I see them. And in here I clearly see an ugly hoax meant to discredit EEVblog, so that these 'serial interpreneurs' get their Wallmart contract and consequently sell their 'business' to some unsuspecting fat wallet. I see an obvious case of black PR, and sadly I also see that the forum members (Dave included) fell for it.
Come on! Wake up! People, you're being had!
I would have liked to dissect this hoax in clear detail, but Dave asked to avoid mentioning the Australian person that can not be mentioned. But IMHO this is serious, they are perfectly capable of ruining Dave's reputation if he doesn't take any countermeasures.

I've read this post four times and I still don't understand a single word. I think you need to retype it in CAPITAL LETTERS With random changes in font size.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 02, 2016, 09:49:19 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 02, 2016, 09:44:55 pm

Quote from: Ontaelio on December 02, 2016, 06:38:23 pm

It seems to me that the circus is suddenly turning into an evil ugliness.
I'm a journalist, and hopefully a good one, and from Russia to boot, so I guess I'm pretty good at detecting hoaxes when I see them. And in here I clearly see an ugly hoax meant to discredit EEVblog, so that these 'serial interpreneurs' get their Wallmart contract and consequently sell their 'business' to some unsuspecting fat wallet. I see an obvious case of black PR, and sadly I also see that the forum members (Dave included) fell for it.
Come on! Wake up! People, you're being had!
I would have liked to dissect this hoax in clear detail, but Dave asked to avoid mentioning the Australian person that can not be mentioned. But IMHO this is serious, they are perfectly capable of ruining Dave's reputation if he doesn't take any countermeasures.

I've read this post four times and I still don't understand a single word. I think you need to retype it in CAPITAL LETTERS With random changes in font size.

Whew  I was on my third so now I can stop  :box:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on December 02, 2016, 10:18:47 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 02, 2016, 09:44:55 pm

Quote from: Ontaelio on December 02, 2016, 06:38:23 pm

It seems to me that the circus is suddenly turning into an evil ugliness.
I'm a journalist, and hopefully a good one, and from Russia to boot, so I guess I'm pretty good at detecting hoaxes when I see them. And in here I clearly see an ugly hoax meant to discredit EEVblog, so that these 'serial interpreneurs' get their Wallmart contract and consequently sell their 'business' to some unsuspecting fat wallet. I see an obvious case of black PR, and sadly I also see that the forum members (Dave included) fell for it.
Come on! Wake up! People, you're being had!
I would have liked to dissect this hoax in clear detail, but Dave asked to avoid mentioning the Australian person that can not be mentioned. But IMHO this is serious, they are perfectly capable of ruining Dave's reputation if he doesn't take any countermeasures.

I've read this post four times and I still don't understand a single word.

Well, I don't belive you. You seem to understand English well enough to understand about 800% of the words in this text.
Get less Alcohol, and read on more. You'll manage it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 03, 2016, 12:29:41 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 02, 2016, 09:43:36 pm

My latest $0.02 is that Bob has a few dozen prototypes form last year and is sending out a couple of parcels per week to people he thinks/knows are Batteroo friendly. Just enough to keep the IGG comments section alive. Not enough that there's a real danger of any landing in the enemy camp.

Why? I just don't believe he's done a new batch. Why would you play games if you were sitting on the goods? Wouldn't you hold a "Batteroo is here!" press conference with plenty of pictures then start shipping as fast as possible to silence the critics?

With the evidence currently at hand, this view of the situation is difficult to challenge - and as each day passes without a significant change in the number of Batteroo sleeves reportedly delivered, it will become even more so.

It's been said we don't know what's been going on behind the scenes - and that is true - but that is a problem if we are expected to believe this is a genuine product roll-out.

It's all about the vibe ... and the vibe is just not right.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on December 03, 2016, 03:07:07 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 03, 2016, 12:29:41 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 02, 2016, 09:43:36 pm

My latest $0.02 is that Bob has a few dozen prototypes form last year and is sending out a couple of parcels per week to people he thinks/knows are Batteroo friendly. Just enough to keep the IGG comments section alive. Not enough that there's a real danger of any landing in the enemy camp.

Why? I just don't believe he's done a new batch. Why would you play games if you were sitting on the goods? Wouldn't you hold a "Batteroo is here!" press conference with plenty of pictures then start shipping as fast as possible to silence the critics?

With the evidence currently at hand, this view of the situation is difficult to challenge - and as each day passes without a significant change in the number of Batteroo sleeves reportedly delivered, it will become even more so.

It's been said we don't know what's been going on behind the scenes - and that is true - but that is a problem if we are expected to believe this is a genuine product roll-out.

It's all about the vibe ... and the vibe is just not right.

Yeah, I've been saying this since the guy in Greece received his units.

These are clearly prototype parts, thrown together, boxed and hand shipped to give the illusion the product is actually shipping.

My thought is they need to show they're shipping to get additional VC funds or to fulfill some sort of requirement of a new investor or large retail outlet. I think they've run out of money and can't actually finish production without it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 03, 2016, 03:38:07 am

One of the nice things about dealing with the 'engineer mentality' is that on the basis of probability, we can extrapolate *most likely* conclusions based on physics and the limited input we have seen from Boob and his 'customers'.

Whether it's IGG, Probes, orders, landslides, shipping, prototypes, marketing fluff or parallel testing of the concept by individuals - nothing leads to a legitimate conclusion that Batteroo/Batteriser have manufactured or released *anything*.

Of course, nothing is *impossible* within the realm of science & history, but as each day and additional leak of BatterooBS is exposed, the odds of Batteriser being a viable possibility are shrinking - perhaps waiting for the day when nuclear fusion power becomes a consumer product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 03, 2016, 11:54:06 am

I'm curious if we'll see the delivery of tons of production sleeves to the IGG backers soon, or if the current shipping of prototypes or pre-production units is the last "big thing" from Batteroo. Everything has to happen fast now, since Bob can't delay the shipping much longer with new excuses. This Bob and Batteroo Show is so entertaining, much better than anything on TV :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: fubar.gr on December 03, 2016, 12:13:45 pm

Quote from: timb on December 03, 2016, 03:07:07 am

Yeah, I've been saying this since the guy in Greece received his units.

These are clearly prototype parts, thrown together, boxed and hand shipped to give the illusion the product is actually shipping.

My thought is they need to show they're shipping to get additional VC funds or to fulfill some sort of requirement of a new investor or large retail outlet. I think they've run out of money and can't actually finish production without it.

I'm the one who contacted the Greek guy. He said right up front that these are samples, and that real shipments will start sometime after new year. So there's no question about that. These are samples, possibly early prototypes, sent to select people, potential retailers, etc.

Now, if I recall correctly he also mentioned that some issue has to be "ironed out" in the US before shipments start. Could it be some legal issue with Energiser, production issue, or did they simply ran out of money as you say? The guy sounded kinda defensive and reluctant to give too many info, so I didn't press any further.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 03, 2016, 01:21:30 pm

Quote from: fubar.gr on December 03, 2016, 12:13:45 pm

I'm the one who contacted the Greek guy. He said right up front that these are samples, and that real shipments will start sometime after new year. So there's no question about that. These are samples, possibly early prototypes, sent to select people, potential retailers, etc.

Hah! That basically confirms everything we've been saying.

a) The Greek guy must be well known to Bob (if he knows all that insider info).

b) Wayne told us that Bob has shipped 30% of the IGG orders so that puts everything Wayne has said in doubt.  To me Wayne is definitely buddies with Bob, everything Wayne has done/said smells fishy.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 03, 2016, 06:29:13 pm

If you add to that theory that they have shipped a handful of units to a Average Joes, just to add a sense that "normal" people are getting them... then I'm on board with that theory.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 03, 2016, 06:37:27 pm

I wonder if this will survive for very long.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=275384;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 03, 2016, 09:54:08 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 03, 2016, 01:21:30 pm

b) Wayne told us that Bob has shipped 30% of the IGG orders so that puts everything Wayne has said in doubt. 

Bob implied here that most have been shipped.
Given there over 7000 backers, "some" must mean maybe 1000 tops not sent?
(http://i.imgur.com/98SS7cR.png)

And they are clearly not sending low order number backers as a priority like they promised they would from their "First Shipment" perks.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 04, 2016, 11:41:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 03, 2016, 09:54:08 pm

Bob implied here that most have been shipped.
Given there over 7000 backers, "some" must mean maybe 1000 tops not sent?
(http://i.imgur.com/98SS7cR.png)

Mathematically speaking, "some" means "at least one", but doesn't imply an upper limit. And in the last update Bob said "the rest of our supporters  will receive their shipments throughout November", but he didn't specify a year :)

Looks like as mentioned by others, nobody got a production unit. "started shipping" means only that they manually sent some pre-production units to selected backers. They try to get more VC money and then maybe they are going to start the real production. I guess shipping might start in some months, if the company doesn't go bankrupt meanwhile and Bob starts the next company.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 04, 2016, 08:40:53 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/QARgQ3q.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 04, 2016, 10:30:16 pm

Sadly - as many have pointed out before - IGG and KS exist for people like Bob to explore sometimes impossible fantasies, and/or take investors money without any real intent of delivering.
The old saying "that you should spend 'other people's money'" is now an online reality.

I doubt that Bob & Frankie started out to create this mess, but they certainly didn't handle it well...  whether it was greed, stupidity or blind bravado 'that we can do this impossible thing' - they have shown clearly they have very little idea of product development, battery technology,  consumer product placement or customer relationship management.  The pillars needed to make BatterPoo work from the very start.

Well run business will do their tech research, market investigation, legal due-diligence and R&D before discussing a product.  IGG / KS bypass all these logical principles, and go straight to the 'show me the money' phase.

Good luck in your next role Boob.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on December 04, 2016, 10:38:10 pm

Batteroo isn't even an impossible thing... Members of this very forum have made tiny boost converters on tiny round PCBs that fit on the end of a AA battery!

Batteroo's problem is they over hyped the performance of the device, so now they need some expensive custom IC instead of an off the shelf chip from Linear or TI...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 04, 2016, 10:39:50 pm

Quote from: timb on December 04, 2016, 10:38:10 pm

Batteroo isn't even an impossible thing... Members of this very forum have made tiny boost converters on tiny round PCBs that fit on the end of a AA battery!

Batteroo's problem is they over hyped the performance of the device, so now they need some expensive custom IC instead of an off the shelf chip from Linear or TI...

...for people like Bob to explore sometimes impossible fantasies...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AG6QR on December 05, 2016, 01:03:24 am

Quote from: timb on December 04, 2016, 10:38:10 pm

Batteroo isn't even an impossible thing... Members of this very forum have made tiny boost converters on tiny round PCBs that fit on the end of a AA battery!

It's not impossible to make a small boost converter.  It's not impossible for that to add some performance under some circumstances.  But that's not what Batteroo claimed.  They claimed that they could take a dead battery that was otherwise headed for the trash heap, and extract four times as much energy out of it as that battery had delivered during its working lifetime.

That's impossible.  Furthermore, they said it would work at any level of current draw.

Quote

Batteroo's problem is they over hyped the performance of the device, so now they need some expensive custom IC instead of an off the shelf chip from Linear or TI...

It's not a question of efficiency.  Today's dead batteries simply don't have enough remaining energy in them in order to live up to those claims, no matter how efficiently one tries to extract that energy.  So an expensive custom IC isn't going to help. 

Saying the device just needs a more efficient custom IC is like the perpetual motion free energy slimeballs saying that they've got a machine that works very well, but it just needs a slightly better lubrication system or a smoother bearing before they can put it into production.  If the principle were sound, they wouldn't need to tweak every last half-percent of efficiency out of it.  But if the energy isn't there to begin with, it's not going to work even if you could somehow achieve 100% efficiency.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on December 05, 2016, 05:24:57 am

You know this might all comes back to Boob and his ability(or inability) to read graph properly?
The heat has dwindled down a bit around here it seems... but a lot of us are still twiddling our thumbs waiting for the miracle that is a proper shipment of proper product to proper person.

And three improbabilities makes for one good probability yes? (or do I suck at probability math... hmmm........)

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on December 05, 2016, 05:27:46 am

Quote from: AG6QR on December 05, 2016, 01:03:24 am

Quote from: timb on December 04, 2016, 10:38:10 pm

Batteroo isn't even an impossible thing... Members of this very forum have made tiny boost converters on tiny round PCBs that fit on the end of a AA battery!

It's not impossible to make a small boost converter.  It's not impossible for that to add some performance under some circumstances.  But that's not what Batteroo claimed.  They claimed that they could take a dead battery that was otherwise headed for the trash heap, and extract four times as much energy out of it as that battery had delivered during its working lifetime.

That's impossible.  Furthermore, they said it would work at any level of current draw.

Quote

Batteroo's problem is they over hyped the performance of the device, so now they need some expensive custom IC instead of an off the shelf chip from Linear or TI...

It's not a question of efficiency.  Today's dead batteries simply don't have enough remaining energy in them in order to live up to those claims, no matter how efficiently one tries to extract that energy.  So an expensive custom IC isn't going to help. 

Saying the device just needs a more efficient custom IC is like the perpetual motion free energy slimeballs saying that they've got a machine that works very well, but it just needs a slightly better lubrication system or a smoother bearing before they can put it into production.  If the principle were sound, they wouldn't need to tweak every last half-percent of efficiency out of it.  But if the energy isn't there to begin with, it's not going to work even if you could somehow achieve 100% efficiency.

You totally misinterpreted what I said.

My point was, basically, the hardware itself (a boost converter that fits on a AA battery) is completely possible, what they claim it can do isn't.

I never said anything about efficiency. What I said was, to get the 500mA+ current draw they claim isn't possible with an off the shelf boost converter of that size. If they would have stuck to a more reasonable claim, they could have used an off the shelf IC and have shipped by now.

In essence, I'm saying that, had they stuck to reasonable figures about what the device could do, nobody would have taken issue with it and it certainly would have been possible. Nothing more, nothing less.

I don't see how my post has anything to do with free energy nuts...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on December 05, 2016, 06:32:33 am

Quote from: timb on December 05, 2016, 05:27:46 am

I never said anything about efficiency. What I said was, to get the 500mA+ current draw they claim isn't possible with an off the shelf boost converter of that size. If they would have stuck to a more reasonable claim, they could have used an off the shelf IC and have shipped by now.

I am not sure how you can know this for sure. There are a number of Asian switching converter companies that do not appear on Digikey/Mouser/etc. They often do deals directly with manufacturers rather then distributors and they often make devices optimised for one particular job. I did once play with some fairly impressive Seiko converters. It is not technically impossible to have a high current output ability at a low input voltage if the regulator chip has an on-board voltage booster so it can adequately drive the output mosfets. I cannot see a chip that can deliver 1A at 1.5V out at 0.7v in as being in any way technically impossible, but I think most manufacturers would just say why bother? - if you are draining 2A plus from a flat battery to provide 1A out, the battery voltage is going to drop like a stone.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AG6QR on December 05, 2016, 06:47:45 am

Quote from: timb on December 05, 2016, 05:27:46 am

I never said anything about efficiency. What I said was, to get the 500mA+ current draw they claim isn't possible with an off the shelf boost converter of that size. If they would have stuck to a more reasonable claim, they could have used an off the shelf IC and have shipped by now.

In essence, I'm saying that, had they stuck to reasonable figures about what the device could do, nobody would have taken issue with it and it certainly would have been possible. Nothing more, nothing less.

I don't see how my post has anything to do with free energy nuts...

Maybe YOU didn't make any claims about efficiency, but they certainly did, and that was the real claim that got the press and potential customers all excited.  They said you're throwing away 80% of a battery's energy every time you toss a dead battery in the trash, only getting 20% of what's in the battery.  And they said their device would recover that remaining 80%, thus giving you five times the battery life you're currently getting.  See Dave's video at the beginning of this thread.  They've since toned down the claim, but only a little.  Instead of saying that EVERY single battery has 80% of its capacity left when it's thrown away, they now say "Devices only tap into 20% of a battery's energy before it tells you that the battery is "dead".  Batteroo taps into the other 80% that is unused...INSTANTLY!"  That is the quote that's featured first on the front of the batteroo.co website.  That is their big marketing pitch aimed at people who don't necessarily know what a mA is.

The range of current draws over which the device could function was a very minor point in comparison to the fact that it was supposed to extract all this energy that everyone is currently throwing in the trash.  You are correct of course, that they made a false claim that their boost converter could function at any level of current draw which an AA battery could support.  But that false claim was peanuts compared to their big false claim.

When they claim you can get a bunch of energy for free, but the energy really isn't there to be harvested, that puts them in the category of free energy nuts, in my book.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 05, 2016, 08:30:01 am

Quote from: amspire on December 05, 2016, 06:32:33 am

I am not sure how you can know this for sure. There are a number of Asian switching converter companies that do not appear on Digikey/Mouser/etc. They often do deals directly with manufacturers rather then distributors and they often make devices optimised for one particular job.

In the case of the Batteriser it's in fact the exact opposite of "one particular job", because you don't know what load this converter will be used on. The specs for this converter need to be the hardest technically possible. i.e. absolute minimal loss over the entire output operating current range in a ridiculously tiny space.

Quote

I cannot see a chip that can deliver 1A at 1.5V out at 0.7v in as being in any way technically impossible, but I think most manufacturers would just say why bother? - if you are draining 2A plus from a flat battery to provide 1A out, the battery voltage is going to drop like a stone.

Which is why they will never ever release a characteristic graph for it.
Doesn't matter though, once someone with any clue gets one, it's a few hours work.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 05, 2016, 08:43:12 am

Quote from: AG6QR on December 05, 2016, 01:03:24 am

Saying the device just needs a more efficient custom IC is like the perpetual motion free energy slimeballs saying that they've got a machine that works very well, but it just needs a slightly better lubrication system or a smoother bearing before they can put it into production.

Yep. I love how their machines are always built out of salvaged/junk parts.

It gives them a permanent excuse for 'not working properly today'.  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 05, 2016, 08:49:38 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 05, 2016, 08:30:01 am

Doesn't matter though, once someone with any clue gets one, it's a few hours work.

Their entire business plan depends on no customer owning the product.   :-DD

Quote from: AG6QR on December 05, 2016, 06:47:45 am

When they claim you can get a bunch of energy for free, but the energy really isn't there to be harvested, that puts them in the category of free energy nuts, in my book.

Either that, or "lying thieves".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 05, 2016, 08:49:47 am

Quote from: AG6QR on December 05, 2016, 06:47:45 am

Maybe YOU didn't make any claims about efficiency, but they certainly did, and that was the real claim that got the press and potential customers all excited.  They said you're throwing away 80% of a battery's energy every time you toss a dead battery in the trash, only getting 20% of what's in the battery.  And they said their device would recover that remaining 80%, thus giving you five times the battery life you're currently getting.  See Dave's video at the beginning of this thread.  They've since toned down the claim, but only a little.  Instead of saying that EVERY single battery has 80% of its capacity left when it's thrown away, they now say "Devices only tap into 20% of a battery's energy before it tells you that the battery is "dead".  Batteroo taps into the other 80% that is unused...INSTANTLY!"  That is the quote that's featured first on the front of the batteroo.co website.  That is their big marketing pitch aimed at people who don't necessarily know what a mA is.

It just occurred to me that we don't need the Batteriser in order to bust their banner claim of 80% energy unused completely and thoroughly.
Of course it's already been done with the cutoff voltage measurements, but in their insane world they dispute that.
What about getting a bunch of typical products, connecting a new battery via a power monitor and logging how much energy is used until flat. Then simulate that same load (roughly) on the "flat" battery and see how much energy is left in it?

Although it's much easier to do without any gear when the Batteriser arrive, just time how long products last and that's it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 05, 2016, 08:55:05 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 05, 2016, 08:49:47 am

What about getting a bunch of typical products, connecting a new battery via a power monitor and logging how much energy is used until flat. Then simulate that same load (roughly) on the "flat" battery and see how much energy is left in it?

Sounds expensive/complicated and there's lots of ways for Bob to weasel out (because you chose the devices).

Plan B:
Is there any way you could grab a bunch of batteries from one of those battery recycling bins?

(ask them nicely of course and promise to return them all afterwards)

Maybe set up a fake "Battery Recycling Point" somewhere and test whatever people throw in it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 05, 2016, 08:56:42 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 05, 2016, 08:55:05 am

Sounds expensive/complicated and there's lots of ways for Bob to weasel out.
Is there any way you could grab a bunch of batteries from one of those battery recycling bins?
(ask them nicely of course and promise to return them all afterwards)
Maybe set up a fake "Battery Recycling Point" somewhere and see what people throw in it.

Bob has already demonstrably misrepresented data from one of those surveys.
The problem with that is you have no history of the battery. People could have mistakingly thrown out new batteries, or simply changed them out deliberately before the low battery mark. Heck, even I do that. For example, if I'm going on a shoot and need guaranteed performance on my wireless mic, I'm going to swap the batteries out for fresh ones before hand so I have a known run time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 05, 2016, 09:03:40 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 05, 2016, 08:56:42 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 05, 2016, 08:55:05 am

Is there any way you could grab a bunch of batteries from one of those battery recycling bins?

Bob has already demonstrably misrepresented data from one of those surveys.

I guess the survey might be true - people do throw away good batteries.

Those people don't care about Batteriser though and it will skew the results.

(which is what Bob did, he claimed the results were due to the devices not the device owners).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 05, 2016, 09:04:45 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 05, 2016, 09:03:40 am

I guess the survey might be true - people do throw away good batteries.
Those people don't care about Batteriser though and it will skew the results.
(which is what Bob did, he claimed the results were due to the devices not the device owners).

Correct on all 3 points.
For point #2, the Batteriser is the exact opposite to what people want. They want a known run time, and not only does the Batteriser not deliver that, but it rendered the battery gauge and/or low battery detector in every single product utterly useless. This undeniable fact alone make the Batteriser unappealing to a vast number of people. Sadly, they are relying on these people not realising this problem until their product instantly goes from 100% battery to 0% at the worst possible time, at which point they'll throw it in the bin in a rage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on December 05, 2016, 11:46:10 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 05, 2016, 08:30:01 am

Quote from: amspire on December 05, 2016, 06:32:33 am

I am not sure how you can know this for sure. There are a number of Asian switching converter companies that do not appear on Digikey/Mouser/etc. They often do deals directly with manufacturers rather then distributors and they often make devices optimised for one particular job.

In the case of the Batteriser it's in fact the exact opposite of "one particular job", because you don't know what load this converter will be used on. The specs for this converter need to be the hardest technically possible. i.e. absolute minimal loss over the entire output operating current range in a ridiculously tiny space.

The way Seiko achieved a wide range of efficiency was to use pulse width modulation for about 10% to 100% power and pulse frequency modulation below that. They were able to get about 90% plus efficiency from 0.1% load to 100% load, and 75% at 0.01% load.

The space though is a big problem. You need a high frequency (say 1.5MHz) to get a tiny inductor that can still carry several amps, but going for high currents means high gate capacitance on the mosfet switches, and so you get increased switching losses. Basically, every time you double the peak output current, the gate capacitance increases by a factor of 4 or more. High gate capacitance and high frequencies don't mix.

Quote

Quote

I cannot see a chip that can deliver 1A at 1.5V out at 0.7v in as being in any way technically impossible, but I think most manufacturers would just say why bother? - if you are draining 2A plus from a flat battery to provide 1A out, the battery voltage is going to drop like a stone.

Which is why they will never ever release a characteristic graph for it.
Doesn't matter though, once someone with any clue gets one, it's a few hours work.

This is the juggling act Batteroo has. There is no way that these first products are within the Indiegogo budget (they did say that manufacturing turned out to be more difficult then an iPhone), and the VC investors don't care about Indiegogo - they only care about landing deals with supermarkets, or finding a big company that wants to buy the design for $100 million or more. They might even currently be using the initial samples of an IC repackaged by a manufacturer to fit their design, but cannot afford a production run from the IC manufacturer without a big deal signed. If Batteroo is doing the potting by hand in the US, it could explain why the devices couldn't be distributed from China.

Batteries are used in so many different ways. It means there would be so many tests you could do on the Batteriser that it would be a total miracle if you didn't find some big problems even if the designers did a good job.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on December 05, 2016, 02:18:24 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 02, 2016, 09:33:53 pm

Quote from: Ontaelio on December 02, 2016, 06:38:23 pm

But IMHO this is serious, they are perfectly capable of ruining Dave's reputation if he doesn't take any countermeasures.

 :-DD

Yeah Dave's Fine Art Career is totally over...  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 05, 2016, 03:35:11 pm

Quote from: amspire on December 05, 2016, 11:46:10 am

(they did say that manufacturing turned out to be more difficult then an iPhone)

...charger... than the iPhone charger that Bob insinuates that he single-handedly designed for Apple.

The iPhone itself is almost infinitely more complex to design and miniaturize everything...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 05, 2016, 04:47:13 pm

Quote from: drussell on December 05, 2016, 03:35:11 pm

Quote from: amspire on December 05, 2016, 11:46:10 am

(they did say that manufacturing turned out to be more difficult then an iPhone)

...charger... than the iPhone charger that Bob insinuates that he single-handedly designed for Apple.

Was it this charger?

http://bgr.com/2014/06/13/iphone-charger-recall-europe/ (http://bgr.com/2014/06/13/iphone-charger-recall-europe/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 05, 2016, 07:04:03 pm

Zombie batteries  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 05, 2016, 07:11:14 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 05, 2016, 04:47:13 pm

Quote from: drussell on December 05, 2016, 03:35:11 pm

Quote from: amspire on December 05, 2016, 11:46:10 am

(they did say that manufacturing turned out to be more difficult then an iPhone)

...charger... than the iPhone charger that Bob insinuates that he single-handedly designed for Apple.

Was it this charger?

http://bgr.com/2014/06/13/iphone-charger-recall-europe/ (http://bgr.com/2014/06/13/iphone-charger-recall-europe/)

There were several different Apple chargers that were deemed unsafe and recalled throughout the world.

It would be quite ironic but not surprising, if any of those were ones where Bob was involved with the design.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 05, 2016, 07:42:32 pm

Batteriser instruction sheet...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=275910;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 05, 2016, 07:44:10 pm

How long before Batteroo simply fall on their sword, and say 'the miniaturisation was harder than we thought...'
Notwithstanding all the performance claims and shipping lies - Boob is stuffed.
All he can be thankful for, is that VC investors don't read the tech forums.
We could change that (!)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 05, 2016, 07:46:42 pm

(from YiuKei's language via google translate)

"Toothbrush. I spent about three weeks into aspects of the two tablets of electric start, Chai Chai, we immediately set up a ' Brush many times. Wow... really impressed on the canal, it seems like the new motor. This crowdfunding something delicious to anything come in the mail would think that it is a scam, to the day before yesterday I suddenly received open watch feel good flow, a try. Really good work."

Anybody know how much current one of those toothbrushes draws?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=275914;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on December 05, 2016, 07:47:43 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 05, 2016, 08:49:47 am

Quote from: AG6QR on December 05, 2016, 06:47:45 am

Maybe YOU didn't make any claims about efficiency, but they certainly did, and that was the real claim that got the press and potential customers all excited.  They said you're throwing away 80% of a battery's energy every time you toss a dead battery in the trash, only getting 20% of what's in the battery.  And they said their device would recover that remaining 80%, thus giving you five times the battery life you're currently getting.  See Dave's video at the beginning of this thread.  They've since toned down the claim, but only a little.  Instead of saying that EVERY single battery has 80% of its capacity left when it's thrown away, they now say "Devices only tap into 20% of a battery's energy before it tells you that the battery is "dead".  Batteroo taps into the other 80% that is unused...INSTANTLY!"  That is the quote that's featured first on the front of the batteroo.co website.  That is their big marketing pitch aimed at people who don't necessarily know what a mA is.

It just occurred to me that we don't need the Batteriser in order to bust their banner claim of 80% energy unused completely and thoroughly.
Of course it's already been done with the cutoff voltage measurements, but in their insane world they dispute that.
What about getting a bunch of typical products, connecting a new battery via a power monitor and logging how much energy is used until flat. Then simulate that same load (roughly) on the "flat" battery and see how much energy is left in it?

Although it's much easier to do without any gear when the Batteriser arrive, just time how long products last and that's it.

Sigh...  That just would be agonizingly tedious, and quite honestly pointless given the responses to this point.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 05, 2016, 07:58:38 pm

Edit: n/m

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 05, 2016, 08:09:44 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 05, 2016, 07:46:42 pm

Anybody know how much current one of those toothbrushes draws?

According to the internet the Colgate 360 uses AAA batteries.

They don't look like AAA Batterisers to me.  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 05, 2016, 08:30:31 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 05, 2016, 08:09:44 pm

They don't look like AAA Batterisers to me.  :-//

In the packaging box it looks like he bought a couple of packets - one of those packets is marked AAA

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=275930;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 05, 2016, 08:42:11 pm

Quote from: quad on December 05, 2016, 08:30:31 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 05, 2016, 08:09:44 pm

They don't look like AAA Batterisers to me.  :-//

In the packaging box it looks like he bought a couple of packets - one of those packets is marked AAA

There's some AAA versions?  :o

Interesting...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on December 05, 2016, 10:08:44 pm

AAA version was mentioned before by someone as received.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 05, 2016, 11:43:47 pm

Quote from: ccs46 on December 05, 2016, 02:18:24 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 02, 2016, 09:33:53 pm

Quote from: Ontaelio on December 02, 2016, 06:38:23 pm

But IMHO this is serious, they are perfectly capable of ruining Dave's reputation if he doesn't take any countermeasures.

:-DD

Yeah Dave's Fine Art Career is totally over...  :-DD

Performing Arts thank you very much!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on December 06, 2016, 03:27:01 am

Yeah Dave's Fine Art Career is totally over...  :-DD
[/quote]

Performing Arts thank you very much!
[/quote]

Which one? 
Please say interpretive dance....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jonovid on December 06, 2016, 03:51:53 am

-old appliances may not have this,  I find most battery powered household appliances nowadays come with their own built in Batteriser.
its called a input voltage regulator.  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on December 06, 2016, 03:58:06 am

Quote from: jonovid on December 06, 2016, 03:51:53 am

-old appliances may not have this,  I find most battery powered household appliances nowadays come with their own built in Batteriser.
its called a input voltage regulator.  ;D

Lol, I was just thinking exactly that!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 06, 2016, 04:56:11 am

That just means a reduced potential market for Batteroo sleeves to be an effective product.  It also means that testing in products is going to be a hit and miss affair - unless it is known if the device has a built in boost circuit or not.

The state of battery chemistry is still the wild card though.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 06, 2016, 06:30:08 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 05, 2016, 07:42:32 pm

Batteriser instruction sheet...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=275910;image)

 :palm:
Even their instruction sheet shows they have no clue what they are talking about.
OK, so they now recognise the difference between active (boost converter) and "passive" loads, great.
They then proceed to extol the advantages of the Batteriser with active load devices.
Then they proceed to tell you about passive load devices and then use the example of a LED flashlight with "constant current" circuitry as an example of when the Batteriser may not be of any use and is not recommended!
The flashlight with the constant current circuitry is an active load device!  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 06, 2016, 06:36:30 am

There, I fixed it for them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ice-Tea on December 06, 2016, 07:16:07 am

In all honnesty, that's not how I read that leaflet. Their definition seems more like:

- Active devices: stuff that has an UVLO but no boost
- Passive devices: well, dumb as a brick.
- LED torches: active devices with a boost.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Koen on December 06, 2016, 12:22:34 pm

Yeah, it's a third section/paragraph. A title would have made it clearer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 06, 2016, 12:55:01 pm

Quote from: Ice-Tea on December 06, 2016, 07:16:07 am

In all honnesty, that's not how I read that leaflet. Their definition seems more like:
- Active devices: stuff that has an UVLO but no boost
- Passive devices: well, dumb as a brick.
- LED torches: active devices with a boost.

Active devices means basically all products that have a boost converter or any form of constant current or constant power operation. Everyone knows this, they know this.
Even if a product doesn't contain an actual boost converter and it's just linear reg for example, then that's still active circuitry because it's constant current consumption just like they are using the LED torch as an example. In that case it means they are admitting that the Batteriser is useless on the majority of products around today (that have boost/buck/CC converters and/or constant power loads, i.e. everything except purely dumb devices who operation changes with battery voltage)
They are very specifically mentioning LED torches because they know this will be a classic test.

The passive load argument is the only potential one the Batteriser product has going for it. And this has been said on here since day 1.
The Batteriser on these product might give shorter life, but it will ensure the clapping monkey keeps clapping at full tilt until it suddenly dies, and some people might find this a useful feature. For all other modern products with battery guages it will be frustrating as buggery, and likely lead to a shorter life to boot.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on December 06, 2016, 12:59:25 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 06, 2016, 12:55:01 pm

i.e. everything except purely dumb devices who operation changes with battery voltage)

So basically, just the monkey. :)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on December 06, 2016, 01:56:24 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 06, 2016, 12:55:01 pm

And this has been said on here since day 1.

This crazy circus seriously seems to be running round in circles.

And how many deadlines have they missed now, 5 or 6? I've lost count.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on December 06, 2016, 01:57:38 pm

Do you still have probes Dave? That way we can do some official testing on him?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on December 06, 2016, 02:04:13 pm

Quote from: McBryce on December 06, 2016, 12:59:25 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 06, 2016, 12:55:01 pm

i.e. everything except purely dumb devices who operation changes with battery voltage)

So basically, just the monkey. :)

McBryce.

Doesn't it draw more then 500mA?
(At least when the hands get blocked)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on December 06, 2016, 02:08:59 pm

I have an old Garmin GPS (GPS95XL) that could benefit from sleeves on its 4 AA batteries, assuming 300mA is deliverable.
I don't expect a major improvement, but some testing might be enlightening.
The AA cells are tightly squeezed in their holder and may not accommodate any extra battery height.

Tested with power supply:
@6.0V 260mA (1.6W)
@4.4V 370mA  (500mA with backlight)
@4.3V Battery warning
@3.4V 500mA
@3.3V Cut Off

 https://www.manualslib.com/manual/56225/Garmin-Gps-95-Xl.html (https://www.manualslib.com/manual/56225/Garmin-Gps-95-Xl.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BoomBrush on December 06, 2016, 02:48:03 pm

Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but will these "Batterisers" be able to output the kind of current needed by some appliances? They look pretty small, seems like the efficiency would hit the fan if you tried to draw high current from it. I don't mean when the battery has tiny charge in it, I mean a full battery. If I had a full battery, wouldn't drawing 2 amps from the "Batteriser" result in a faster depletion of battery life due to efficiency?

I bought one of those generic DC-DC buck/boost converters (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/122132655705) recently from ebay, now granted they are far more complicated than a batteriser would be, but they draw an idle current of 18mA. The batterisers might only have an idle current of a few microamps, but it's still a consideration. As I said before, theres also the problem of efficiency. If I draw 2 amps from the batteriser, how much would be drawn from the battery? 2.1A? 2.3A? Doesn't seem like a very "energy saving" concept. And wouldn't this problem gets worse the more current you draw? Keep in mind, I'm not talking about an almost dead battery, I'm talking about taking power out of the batteriser with a full battery.

I did a quick test and stole some AA batteries from my mums keyboard, I got no idea what charge is in them. About 1.5v open circuit, about 2.9A short circuit current. They seem pretty full. Let's say I threw a pair of batterisers on it: What's the short circuit current now? What if my "robot toy" requires 1.5A of current, and the max the batteriser outputs is 1A? I know 2.9A is pretty unrealistic, but I think I have illustrated my thoughts well enough for that to be negated.

My final comment: The implementation chosen seems to be a disaster due to losses in efficiency, no load power consumption and a current limit.

I looked at their website to see the prices. 26.85aud for only 8? I might as well buy a pile of rechargeables! Theres no way these things could ever give a major quantity of improvement but even if they did, is it really worth $27 bucks? The batteries were gonna die eventually. These are only ever useful in the long, long run. And in the long run, you might as well be using rechargeables.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CJay on December 06, 2016, 03:04:30 pm

Quote from: BoomBrush on December 06, 2016, 02:48:03 pm

I looked at their website to see the prices. 26.85aud for only 8? I might as well buy a pile of rechargeables! Theres no way these things could ever give a major quantity of improvement but even if they did, is it really worth $27 bucks? The batteries were gonna die eventually. These are only ever useful in the long, long run. And in the long run, you might as well be using rechargeables.

My thought exactly, I can lay hands on decent 2400mAH AA NiMH cells in packs of four for £3, a charger with a good reputation was £12 and it charges AAA, AA, C D and 9V cells/batteries.

Chances are I'd wreck a batteriseroo with a leaking cell or someone (probably me, it's an age thing) would forget they were fitted and they'd end up being given or thrown away with cells or equipment.

Nice niche product idea, probably useless for the vast majority of my needs, let's face it, if there were a market for it 'Big Battery' would have been all over it, just look at the battery market now, premium prices for Lithium, premium prices for cells made with 'recycled' cells, ready to use rechargeables etc. etc, an edge given by a product incorporating a boost converter would have been jumped on if it were useful, they'd have gone as far as making the cell slightly shorter to accommodate the boost and still have it fit a standard cell holder.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on December 06, 2016, 04:13:57 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 06, 2016, 12:55:01 pm

They are very specifically mentioning LED torches [ed: won't work] because they know this will be a classic test.

Which is ironic, because as Wayne showed us, the current limit of the Batteriser will actually cause the flashlight (torch) to run at a (perhaps imperceptibly) dimmer level and it WILL actually last longer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on December 06, 2016, 04:15:03 pm

Quote from: McBryce on December 06, 2016, 12:59:25 pm

So basically, just the monkey. :)

Don't forget about the butterfly

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 06, 2016, 05:14:42 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on December 06, 2016, 02:08:59 pm

I have an old Garmin GPS (GPS95XL) that could benefit from sleeves on its 4 AA batteries, assuming 300mA is deliverable.
...
Tested with power supply:
@6.0V 260mA (1.6W)
@4.4V 370mA  (500mA with backlight)
@4.3V Battery warning
@3.4V 500mA
@3.3V Cut Off

Uhhh...  No, those results looks like it already has boost circuitry in it.  It is drawing more current as the voltage drops because it is using that extra current at that voltage to make up the total power it needs to operate.

Adding another boost converter in there will only shorten the battery life due to the redundant converter(s) (in)efficiency siphoning off a little more of the total power available in the cells as you use it.  You are adding four more unnecessary boost converters in series with the one inside the GPS that is actually doing something useful already. 

You would be adding 4 X whatever Batteroo's power loss is and I highly doubt that their "generic application" boost converter is 4 X as efficient as the "purpose built" one already in the GPS. 

They DO have an interesting grasp on mathematics, don't they?  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 06, 2016, 05:45:29 pm

Quote from: BoomBrush on December 06, 2016, 02:48:03 pm

Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but will these "Batterisers" be able to output the kind of current needed by some appliances?

No, they will not.  They were marketed as such but I find it highly unlikely that they will be even close.

Quote

They look pretty small, seems like the efficiency would hit the fan if you tried to draw high current from it. I don't mean when the battery has tiny charge in it, I mean a full battery. If I had a full battery, wouldn't drawing 2 amps from the "Batteriser" result in a faster depletion of battery life due to efficiency?

Yes...   Indeed

Quote

The batterisers might only have an idle current of a few microamps, but it's still a consideration. As I said before, theres also the problem of efficiency. If I draw 2 amps from the batteriser, how much would be drawn from the battery? 2.1A? 2.3A?

Yes...  More current would be drawn.  How much more at various currents we don't know yet.

We can make educated guesses that are likely very close but Bateroo will say:
"Invalid!  that is not our magical chip!  Invalid!  INVALID!!!"  :palm:

Quote

Doesn't seem like a very "energy saving" concept. And wouldn't this problem gets worse the more current you draw?

Yes... Indeed!
Well, there is usually a sweet-spot in the middle somewhere where the efficiency is highest but it is still < 100%.

Quote

Keep in mind, I'm not talking about an almost dead battery, I'm talking about taking power out of the batteriser with a full battery.

It will always use up some extra power, regardless of the state of charge of the cell or the current drawn.

Quote

They seem pretty full. Let's say I threw a pair of batterisers on it: What's the short circuit current now? What if my "robot toy" requires 1.5A of current, and the max the batteriser outputs is 1A? I know 2.9A is pretty unrealistic, but I think I have illustrated my thoughts well enough for that to be negated.

Again, while they were marketed as being able to supply "as much current as the battery can deliver" that is demonstrably hogwash.

Quote

My final comment: The implementation chosen seems to be a disaster due to losses in efficiency, no load power consumption and a current limit.

Yes...  Indeed!

Quote

I looked at their website to see the prices. 26.85aud for only 8? I might as well buy a pile of rechargeables!

Yes...  Indeed!

Quote

Theres no way these things could ever give a major quantity of improvement but even if they did, is it really worth $27 bucks?

Highly unlikely.

Quote

The batteries were gonna die eventually. These are only ever useful in the long, long run. And in the long run, you might as well be using rechargeables.

For the vast majority of devices they are not useful even in the long, long, long run.

Quote from: CJay on December 06, 2016, 03:04:30 pm

My thought exactly, I can lay hands on decent 2400mAH AA NiMH cells in packs of four for £3, a charger with a good reputation was £12 and it charges AAA, AA, C D and 9V cells/batteries.

That is a MUCH better idea.

All of these points have been thoroughly discussed MANY times before in this thread but it provides a nice summary.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on December 06, 2016, 05:51:36 pm

Quote from: drussell on December 06, 2016, 05:14:42 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on December 06, 2016, 02:08:59 pm

I have an old Garmin GPS (GPS95XL) that could benefit from sleeves on its 4 AA batteries, assuming 300mA is deliverable.
...
Tested with power supply:
@6.0V 260mA (1.6W)
@4.4V 370mA  (500mA with backlight)
@4.3V Battery warning
@3.4V 500mA
@3.3V Cut Off

Uhhh...  No, those results looks like it already has boost circuitry in it.  It is drawing more current as the voltage drops because it is using that extra current at that voltage to make up the total power it needs to operate.

Adding another boost converter in there will only shorten the battery life due to the redundant converter(s) (in)efficiency siphoning off a little more of the total power available in the cells as you use it.  You are adding four more unnecessary boost converters in series with the one inside the GPS that is actually doing something useful already. 

You would be adding 4 X whatever Batteroo's power loss is and I highly doubt that their "generic application" boost converter is 4 X as efficient as the "purpose built" one already in the GPS. 

They DO have an interesting grasp on mathematics, don't they?  :)

Yes, come to think of it, it is definitely an active load device operating at constant power (1.6W). As you said, the sleeves most probably will make things worse.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on December 06, 2016, 06:00:43 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on December 06, 2016, 05:51:36 pm

Yes, come to think of it, it is definitely an active load device operating at constant power (1.6W). As you said, the sleeves most probably will make things worse.

Unless you consider the end of the test as the moment you get the battery warning (like the Batteroo Bros did and convinced UL of).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Wytnucls on December 06, 2016, 06:32:56 pm

Touché!

According to the power curve for the Duracell alkaline AA, I should get about 5 hours of use, which, from memory, seems about right.
Garmin doesn't publish the figure.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 06, 2016, 06:40:06 pm

Quote from: lpickup on December 06, 2016, 06:00:43 pm

Quote from: Wytnucls on December 06, 2016, 05:51:36 pm

Yes, come to think of it, it is definitely an active load device operating at constant power (1.6W). As you said, the sleeves most probably will make things worse.

Unless you consider the end of the test as the moment you get the battery warning (like the Batteroo Bros did and convinced UL of).

The UL report is complete trash and doesn't meet even the most basic of criteria for carrying out such a test; they should be embarrassed to have put their name to it.

Following the standard disclaimer, the actual "test" section reads like it was written by a 10 year old.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 06, 2016, 07:21:24 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 06, 2016, 06:40:06 pm

The UL report is complete trash and doesn't meet even the most basic of criteria for carrying out such a test; they should be embarrassed to have put their name to it.

Following the standard disclaimer, the actual "test" section reads like it was written by a 10 year old.

UL did precisely the test they were asked to do by Batteroo, using Batteroo-supplied testing aparatus and method. 

Predictably, the results and the report were just as (in)valid as the test criteria provided by Batteroo.

Aside from actually agreeing to do such a bogus test in the first place, it isn't UL's fault.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 06, 2016, 07:44:34 pm

Quote from: drussell on December 06, 2016, 07:21:24 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 06, 2016, 06:40:06 pm

The UL report is complete trash and doesn't meet even the most basic of criteria for carrying out such a test; they should be embarrassed to have put their name to it.

Following the standard disclaimer, the actual "test" section reads like it was written by a 10 year old.

UL did precisely the test they were asked to do by Batteroo, using Batteroo-supplied testing aparatus and method. 

Predictably, the results and the report were just as (in)valid as the test criteria provided by Batteroo.

Aside from actually agreeing to do such a bogus test in the first place, it isn't UL's fault.  :)

They may have just been carrying out the test dictated by Batteroo but, they failed to adequately describe the test set-up, the method or the equipment used, they did not record any serial numbers and they did not repeat the test. As a reputable organisation they should know better than to produce this kind of drivel.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 06, 2016, 07:57:34 pm

Hey boob, it looks like you stopped typing halfway through your reply, and forgot to even acknowledge that you previously claimed you'd be giving the non-existent 9v "Batterisers" away with each order...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=276165;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 06, 2016, 08:23:40 pm

Quote from: Barny on December 06, 2016, 02:04:13 pm

Doesn't it draw more then 500mA?
(At least when the hands get blocked)

Their new model can do 1.5A
And given that they publish no power curve at all, and they state on their website:
(http://i.imgur.com/4GtkJa6.png)

Probes should be just fine.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 06, 2016, 08:30:57 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 06, 2016, 06:40:06 pm

The UL report is complete trash and doesn't meet even the most basic of criteria for carrying out such a test; they should be embarrassed to have put their name to it.

They seem to be by the way the disclaimer is written.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 06, 2016, 08:35:06 pm

Quote from: BoomBrush on December 06, 2016, 02:48:03 pm

Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but will these "Batterisers" be able to output the kind of current needed by some appliances? They look pretty small, seems like the efficiency would hit the fan if you tried to draw high current from it. I don't mean when the battery has tiny charge in it, I mean a full battery. If I had a full battery, wouldn't drawing 2 amps from the "Batteriser" result in a faster depletion of battery life due to efficiency?

Yes, it becomes a maximum power transfer issue.
A curve of a AA Batteriser clone has been published on here that shows this.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 06, 2016, 09:00:54 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 06, 2016, 07:44:34 pm

Quote from: drussell on December 06, 2016, 07:21:24 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 06, 2016, 06:40:06 pm

The UL report is complete trash and doesn't meet even the most basic of criteria for carrying out such a test; they should be embarrassed to have put their name to it.

Following the standard disclaimer, the actual "test" section reads like it was written by a 10 year old.

UL did precisely the test they were asked to do by Batteroo, using Batteroo-supplied testing aparatus and method. 
Predictably, the results and the report were just as (in)valid as the test criteria provided by Batteroo.
Aside from actually agreeing to do such a bogus test in the first place, it isn't UL's fault.  :)

They may have just been carrying out the test dictated by Batteroo but, they failed to adequately describe the test set-up, the method or the equipment used, they did not record any serial numbers and they did not repeat the test. As a reputable organisation they should know better than to produce this kind of drivel.

Well, from my perspective, I believe they produced report of equal "bogosity" to the test itself.  :)

Quote from: EEVblog on December 06, 2016, 08:30:57 pm

They seem to be by the way the disclaimer is written.

I agree...  I believe they were embarrassed by the irrelevant (to the point of essentially being fraudulent) nature of the test that they intentionally wrote that half-assed report with disclamers galore.  Not at all what you would expect from a reputable test organization.  :)

I also believe, however, that they should not have agreed to do such a silly test in the first place but I'm sure they had their reasons for doing it anyway, despite the fact that it was obvious nonsense.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 06, 2016, 11:22:08 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 06, 2016, 07:57:34 pm

Hey boob, it looks like you stopped typing halfway through your reply, and forgot to even acknowledge that you previously claimed you'd be giving the non-existent 9v "Batterisers" away with each order...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=276165;image)

So, the product arrived more than a year later than promised, doesn't meet the promised specification, and doesn't include the promised 9V Batteriser and yet the recipient thanks Bob for restoring his trust in IGG :-// It doesn't take much to please some people. I wonder if he was being sarcastic... or perhaps he had zero trust in IGG to start with?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 06, 2016, 11:25:48 pm

Quote from: drussell on December 06, 2016, 09:00:54 pm

but I'm sure they had their reasons for doing it anyway, despite the fact that it was obvious nonsense.

$$$

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 06, 2016, 11:33:58 pm

Another update soon! Woot!

(http://i.imgur.com/JhNl7vq.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 07, 2016, 12:58:59 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 06, 2016, 11:33:58 pm

Another update soon! Woot!

As far as I can tell Woot sells some battery stuff but I could not find any Batterisers

http://www.woot.com/category/electronics/batteries-cables-chargers?ref=w_cnt_cdet_elec_4 (http://www.woot.com/category/electronics/batteries-cables-chargers?ref=w_cnt_cdet_elec_4)

?

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on December 07, 2016, 01:05:15 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 07, 2016, 12:58:59 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 06, 2016, 11:33:58 pm

Another update soon! Woot!

As far as I can tell Woot sells some battery stuff but I could not find any Batterisers

http://www.woot.com/category/electronics/batteries-cables-chargers?ref=w_cnt_cdet_elec_4 (http://www.woot.com/category/electronics/batteries-cables-chargers?ref=w_cnt_cdet_elec_4)

?

Uh, you know "woot" was internet slang *long* before the daily-deal site Woot.com existed, right? In fact, the slang term is where the site's name comes from, as in, "Woot! Look at this great deal I just got!"

The exact origins of "woot" are unknown, but it likely stems from a h4x0rz corruption of "Whoop!" and "Woohoo!".

The more you know! ~~~*

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on December 07, 2016, 02:16:47 am

Quote from: timb on December 07, 2016, 01:05:15 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 07, 2016, 12:58:59 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 06, 2016, 11:33:58 pm

Another update soon! Woot!

As far as I can tell Woot sells some battery stuff but I could not find any Batterisers

http://www.woot.com/category/electronics/batteries-cables-chargers?ref=w_cnt_cdet_elec_4 (http://www.woot.com/category/electronics/batteries-cables-chargers?ref=w_cnt_cdet_elec_4)

?

Uh, you know "woot" was internet slang *long* before the daily-deal site Woot.com existed, right? In fact, the slang term is where the site's name comes from, as in, "Woot! Look at this great deal I just got!"

The exact origins of "woot" are unknown, but it likely stems from a h4x0rz corruption of "Whoop!" and "Woohoo!".

The more you know! ~~~*

You know, Dave is at fault for not using the proper w00t (with double-zero) form!

 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on December 07, 2016, 03:49:10 am

The Real History and Origin of Woot and w00t. (http://grantbarrett.com/the-real-history-and-origin-of-woot-and-w00t)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ErikTheNorwegian on December 07, 2016, 10:41:46 am

What Bob should have wanted for xmass!!!  ;D

AT520C HV Battery Resistance Meter
AT520C is new designed high voltage battery internal resistance meter, which build-in DC high voltage meter.
Resistance test range from 0.1m? to 300?, voltage range can reach to 400V.
Suitable for all kinds of high voltage battery test, such as high voltage and internal resistance of Li-battery.

Battery Resistance Meter Voltage:
10mV ~ 400V
0.1m? ~ 300? HV

http://www.ebay.com/itm/0-1m-300-HV-Battery-Resistance-Meter-Voltage-10mV-400V-/262562460629?hash=item3d21f133d5:g:zxEAAOSwZ8ZW~JWy (http://www.ebay.com/itm/0-1m-300-HV-Battery-Resistance-Meter-Voltage-10mV-400V-/262562460629?hash=item3d21f133d5:g:zxEAAOSwZ8ZW~JWy)

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on December 07, 2016, 11:55:43 am

Quote from: Halcyon on December 07, 2016, 03:49:10 am

The Real History and Origin of Woot and w00t. (http://grantbarrett.com/the-real-history-and-origin-of-woot-and-w00t)

Yeah, I don't buy his explanation. The most popular version of that song (by an enormous margin) is called "Whoomp! There It Is", which doesn't really sound like "woot"... (Though, if you listen to the song it really sounds like they're saying, "Whoop!" which at least rhymes with woot!)

I think a more plausible explanation is that it's random word created on IRC at some point in the mid to late 90's, rather than some sort of corruption of a song title that is in and off itself a misspelt onomatopoeia.

Still, it's a pretty great word. Short, concise and expressive.

w00tX0rZz

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 07, 2016, 12:07:28 pm

Reports of shipping notifications are flooding in
(http://i.imgur.com/82dBe6G.png)

[/sarcasm]

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 07, 2016, 10:08:12 pm

Another

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=276405;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on December 08, 2016, 12:47:08 am

Is it just me or do a lot of these names seem automatically generated?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on December 08, 2016, 01:31:58 am

Perhaps I've mentioned before but I tried listing the backers and their contrib, and check if they look somewhat suspicious (gave up after 1000 names).
[sarcasm]
But hey, they have lots of actresses and actors and you know, just generally famous people in that backers list, check it out for yourself!
[/sarcasm]


^ One day someone will figure out a way to make the above BBcode a reality...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 08, 2016, 04:41:48 am

Quote from: quad on December 07, 2016, 10:08:12 pm

Another

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=276405;image)

Hmmmm.... Is he a six million dollar man?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 08, 2016, 04:49:32 am

So more days go by and a few shipment notification reports come though, but no further people crowing they have received them, and certainly not anyone on this forum or the several hundred thousand people who have seen my Batteriser videos, or some people in sub 100 backing numbers.
This is getting boring  :=\

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on December 08, 2016, 06:56:50 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 08, 2016, 04:41:48 am

Quote from: quad on December 07, 2016, 10:08:12 pm

Another

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=276405;image)

Hmmmm.... Is he a six million dollar man?

I think you'll find he's Stone Kold

 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 09, 2016, 03:24:22 am

Another day, another single report of shipment notification  :=\
(http://i.imgur.com/rIgj7NF.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on December 09, 2016, 03:29:08 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 08, 2016, 04:41:48 am

Quote from: quad on December 07, 2016, 10:08:12 pm

Another

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=276405;image)

Hmmmm.... Is he a six million dollar man?

Steve Ostyn, astronaut, a man barely alive. Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. Better, stronger, faster (800%)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGO57y4td-c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGO57y4td-c)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 09, 2016, 03:46:46 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 09, 2016, 03:24:22 am

Another day, another single report of shipment notification  :=\
(http://i.imgur.com/rIgj7NF.png)

Maybe they send one packet per day of the pre-production units to selected customers (who complained most on indiegogo), to keep the rest quiet and get more VC money. I guess they can do this for some weeks until they are out of stock. Someday you will get one for your $100 offer, plus ad income of the video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: johndoe123 on December 09, 2016, 04:06:02 am

One more https://twitter.com/m_sichler/status/806941655383347201

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 09, 2016, 04:55:10 am

Quote from: johndoe123 on December 09, 2016, 04:06:02 am

One more https://twitter.com/m_sichler/status/806941655383347201 (https://twitter.com/m_sichler/status/806941655383347201)

Interesting ... two types of packaging - Batterizer and Batteroo.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=276699;image)

Using up existing materials, no doubt.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 09, 2016, 05:00:13 am

Another thing .... that is a very inefficient style of packaging for multiple units.  20% product, 10% cardboard 70% air.

Shipping 10,000 of them in that way would become excessively expensive, if space were to become a factor - such as in cubing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on December 09, 2016, 05:05:42 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 09, 2016, 04:55:10 am

Interesting ... two types of packaging - Batterizer and Batteroo.
...
Using up existing materials, no doubt.

It looks like the AA packs are labelled Batterizer, and the AAA are Batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 09, 2016, 05:11:28 am

Quote from: Kean on December 09, 2016, 05:05:42 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 09, 2016, 04:55:10 am

Interesting ... two types of packaging - Batterizer and Batteroo.
...
Using up existing materials, no doubt.

It looks like the AA packs are labelled Batterizer, and the AAA are Batteroo.

It would seem reasonable to expect them to have the AA sleeves ready to be the first cab off the rank - so having some packaging already printed before the Energizer case was sorted is not hard to believe.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on December 09, 2016, 05:16:46 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 09, 2016, 05:11:28 am

Quote from: Kean on December 09, 2016, 05:05:42 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 09, 2016, 04:55:10 am

Interesting ... two types of packaging - Batterizer and Batteroo.
...
Using up existing materials, no doubt.

It looks like the AA packs are labelled Batterizer, and the AAA are Batteroo.

It would seem reasonable to expect them to have the AA sleeves ready to be the first cab off the rank - so having some packaging already printed before the Energizer case was sorted is not hard to believe.

Exactly!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 09, 2016, 05:17:38 am

They openly declared on one of their pages that a figure of one million dollars was their objective and they never got it, in addition and again it’s been mentioned before that the actual number of true backers is questionable as there were many instances of the same name at different times committing to small orders perhaps to give a false indication of popularity and potentially suck others in, I had intentions of saving the full list of backers but got to a bit over 300 pages and then gave up, I managed to save a few somewhere on the other computer probably in a folder labelled as fiction.   

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 09, 2016, 05:19:02 am

Quote from: Kean on December 09, 2016, 05:16:46 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 09, 2016, 05:11:28 am

Quote from: Kean on December 09, 2016, 05:05:42 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 09, 2016, 04:55:10 am

Interesting ... two types of packaging - Batterizer and Batteroo.
...
Using up existing materials, no doubt.

It looks like the AA packs are labelled Batterizer, and the AAA are Batteroo.

It would seem reasonable to expect them to have the AA sleeves ready to be the first cab off the rank - so having some packaging already printed before the Energizer case was sorted is not hard to believe.

Exactly!

I see your point.

Not as interesting after all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on December 09, 2016, 07:45:12 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on December 09, 2016, 05:17:38 am

the actual number of true backers is questionable as there were many instances of the same name at different times committing to small orders perhaps to give a false indication of popularity

If they were making fraudulent pledges why would they create multiple accounts with the *same name*?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on December 09, 2016, 08:35:06 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 09, 2016, 05:11:28 am

Quote from: Kean on December 09, 2016, 05:05:42 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 09, 2016, 04:55:10 am

Interesting ... two types of packaging - Batterizer and Batteroo.
...
Using up existing materials, no doubt.

It looks like the AA packs are labelled Batterizer, and the AAA are Batteroo.

It would seem reasonable to expect them to have the AA sleeves ready to be the first cab off the rank - so having some packaging already printed before the Energizer case was sorted is not hard to believe.

 No, it wouldn't. Nobody prints packaging in bulk months before the product begins manufacturing.

These are certainly demo prints of the original packaging. Who knows how long they've had them sitting around.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 09, 2016, 08:55:36 am

This guy on Twitter has some:
(http://i.imgur.com/YFU9zLx.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 09, 2016, 09:34:16 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 09, 2016, 04:55:10 am

Interesting ... two types of packaging - Batterizer and Batteroo.

The 'Batteroo' ones are AAA size, must be a newer package.

Also interesting is the huge box with an empty space in the middle. It would make more sense to send two of the smaller '4-pack' boxes.

Quote from: Brumby on December 09, 2016, 04:55:10 am

Using up existing materials, no doubt.

I'm not against that. Every bit helps.

It doesn't look god for the claims that they're now in full production though.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 09, 2016, 09:47:19 am

Somebody else with an excuse not to post one to Dave?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=276770;image)

I assume Dave offered to pay for shipping, so...  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 09, 2016, 10:11:39 am

Surely there must be somebody in Germany who could assist as this fellow who responded to Dave seems pretty reasonable. I think he was in Germany anyway but I could be mistaken.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 09, 2016, 10:38:41 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on December 09, 2016, 10:11:39 am

Surely there must be somebody in Germany who could assist as this fellow who responded to Dave seems pretty reasonable. I think he was in Germany anyway but I could be mistaken.

Schweiz = Switzerland.

Switzerland isn't the sort of country where I'd expect somebody to worry about postage costs.  :popcorn:

OTOH ... it's understandable that if you just got your Batteriser after waiting over a year that you wouldn't want to give them away to strangers on the very first day.

If he's replied to Dave then I suggest everybody else not try to contact him. If anybody here lives near Brütten (Zurich) then Dave could put them in touch with each other, maybe get a couple of them. Oh, the intrigue. I wonder if Bob is reading this.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on December 09, 2016, 10:44:21 am

I'm in Germany, if he sends some to me I'll gladly send them to Dave for free.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 09, 2016, 10:51:41 am

I was pretty sure that Google translate said German to English whilst I was on a particular page, anyway it looks like you have it all sorted out.   :)

I have a large collection of Swiss army knives, don't really know why but I do.   :P 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on December 09, 2016, 11:07:39 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on December 09, 2016, 10:51:41 am

I was pretty sure that Google translate said German to English whilst I was on a particular page, anyway it looks like you have it all sorted out.   :)

I have a large collection of Swiss army knives, don't really know why but I do.   :P

German is spoken in Switzerland (as well as French), so Google Translate would indeed have said German to English.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 09, 2016, 11:37:05 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on December 09, 2016, 10:51:41 am

I was pretty sure that Google translate said German to English whilst I was on a particular page, anyway it looks like you have it all sorted out.   :)

I'm sure if he visited your page it would say "English to German" ... but that doesn't mean you live in England.  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 09, 2016, 11:52:29 am

I live in Germany, have some test equipment (RK8511 DC electronic load (http://cgi.ebay.com/140930845672), HM8012 benchtop multimeter (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/hm8012-productstartpage_63493-147337.html) with RS232 for logging, Brymen BM257s) with which I could create some characteristics curves. I guess express shipping to Australia costs a fortune, but of course, would be the best if Dave tests it, I don't have all test equipment which you need, i.e. probes the monkey :)

Interesting that the guy in Switzerland got two packages, with Batteriser and Batteroo labels. This would be really interesting, if it would be both type of the units as well, the pre-production and the final version (if they have some).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on December 09, 2016, 12:12:23 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 09, 2016, 09:34:16 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 09, 2016, 04:55:10 am

Interesting ... two types of packaging - Batterizer and Batteroo.

The 'Batteroo' ones are AAA size, must be a newer package.

Also interesting is the huge box with an empty space in the middle. It would make more sense to send two of the smaller '4-pack' boxes.

Quote from: Brumby on December 09, 2016, 04:55:10 am

Using up existing materials, no doubt.

I'm not against that. Every bit helps.

It doesn't look god for the claims that they're now in full production though.

The huge box is probably intended as a marketing display, with the deliberate empty spaces to create the impression that people are actually buying them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 09, 2016, 12:18:51 pm

Quote from: amyk on December 09, 2016, 12:12:23 pm

The huge box is probably intended as a marketing display, with the deliberate empty spaces to create the impression that people are actually buying them.

I wonder if it says "Batteriser" or "Batteroo" on the outside of the box.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 09, 2016, 12:22:07 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on December 09, 2016, 10:51:41 am

I have a large collection of Swiss army knives, don't really know why but I do.   :P

I've got far more Opinels than I really need (carbon steel, oh yeah!).

I'm sure everybody here has too many multimeters.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BradC on December 09, 2016, 12:30:28 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 09, 2016, 12:22:07 pm

I'm sure everybody here has too many multimeters.

You can *never* have too many multimeters.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on December 09, 2016, 12:35:52 pm

Quote from: timb on December 09, 2016, 08:35:06 am

No, it wouldn't. Nobody prints packaging in bulk months before the product begins manufacturing.

Actually it is quite easy to believe they could have done a sample (or even a large) print run of those backing cards early on for a whole bunch of reasons.  We know they are poor planners and thought they were ready to ship a while back.  Compared to the production of the devices themselves, printing these wouldn't have been costly or difficult.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 09, 2016, 12:38:47 pm

Quote from: Kean on December 09, 2016, 12:35:52 pm

Quote from: timb on December 09, 2016, 08:35:06 am

No, it wouldn't. Nobody prints packaging in bulk months before the product begins manufacturing.

Actually it is quite easy to believe they could have done a sample (or even a large) print run of those backing cards early on for a whole bunch of reasons.  We know they are poor planners and thought they were ready to ship a while back.  Compared to the production of the devices themselves, printing these wouldn't have been costly or difficult.

Last year they were promising to send "press packs" to people. It's easy to believe they made a few boxes in preparation for that.

(and that's what they're sending out now ... only the 'AAA' packages are new)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on December 09, 2016, 01:51:17 pm

Quote from: Kean on December 09, 2016, 12:35:52 pm

Quote from: timb on December 09, 2016, 08:35:06 am

No, it wouldn't. Nobody prints packaging in bulk months before the product begins manufacturing.

Actually it is quite easy to believe they could have done a sample (or even a large) print run of those backing cards early on for a whole bunch of reasons.  We know they are poor planners and thought they were ready to ship a while back.  Compared to the production of the devices themselves, printing these wouldn't have been costly or difficult.

Right, I guess that was my other point. I mentioned this several pages back, but basically, they either:

Printed up a hundred or so as packaging samples for press kits...

*or*

Printed up tens of thousands over a year before the device reportedly entered production (if they *ever* entered production). Making them horrible at this whole running a business thing.

Either scenario is equally plausible, though my money is on the former, as Bob does come from Flextronics, so I'd assume he has at least a basic grasp on how manufacturing and packaging works.

Personally, I find it highly unlikely they had tens of thousands of packages made up after the Kickstarter, as a lot companies that do product packaging have moved to "Print on Demand" for small and medium volume runs. In this scenario the assembled product would be shipped from the factory in China to the packaging company, which would take care of boxing and printing in-house. That would be the most cost effective for their volume I think.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on December 09, 2016, 02:08:49 pm

Quote from: timb on December 09, 2016, 01:51:17 pm

In this scenario the assembled product would be shipped from the factory in China to the packaging company, which would take care of boxing and printing in-house. That would be the most cost effective for their volume I think.

Sure, that would be what sensible business owners would plan, but we know they are actually shipping from the USA.  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 09, 2016, 03:07:52 pm

Quote from: Kean on December 09, 2016, 02:08:49 pm

Quote from: timb on December 09, 2016, 01:51:17 pm

In this scenario the assembled product would be shipped from the factory in China to the packaging company, which would take care of boxing and printing in-house. That would be the most cost effective for their volume I think.

Sure, that would be what sensible business owners would plan, but we know they are actually shipping from the USA.  :-DD

They only ship three packages per week and that's where their 'stock' is, so...  :-//

Most printers these days will do small runs, no problem. It's all digital, no making engraved metal plates any more.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 09, 2016, 03:21:32 pm

Quote from: McBryce on December 09, 2016, 10:44:21 am

I'm in Germany, if he sends some to me I'll gladly send them to Dave for free.

Customs could withhold it, since it doesn't have a CE sticker. Nor does it include a Declaration of Conformity.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 09, 2016, 04:23:09 pm

Quote from: madires on December 09, 2016, 03:21:32 pm

Quote from: McBryce on December 09, 2016, 10:44:21 am

I'm in Germany, if he sends some to me I'll gladly send them to Dave for free.

Customs could withhold it, since it doesn't have a CE sticker. Nor does it include a Declaration of Conformity.

How did the Swiss guy then got it? Switzerland is not a member of the EU, but they require CE markings, too (http://www.s-ge.com/sites/default/files/Swiss%20legislation%20CE%20marking.pdf).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 09, 2016, 04:48:53 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 09, 2016, 04:23:09 pm

Quote from: madires on December 09, 2016, 03:21:32 pm

Quote from: McBryce on December 09, 2016, 10:44:21 am

I'm in Germany, if he sends some to me I'll gladly send them to Dave for free.

Customs could withhold it, since it doesn't have a CE sticker. Nor does it include a Declaration of Conformity.

How did the Swiss guy then got it? Switzerland is not a member of the EU, but they require CE markings, too (http://www.s-ge.com/sites/default/files/Swiss%20legislation%20CE%20marking.pdf).

They're not going to check conformity on individual items/packets, only on huge shipments that look like they're for resale.

And even then I'm not sure. I can buy dangerous, fake, imported crap in any number of places around here.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Towger on December 09, 2016, 05:06:08 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 09, 2016, 04:23:09 pm

How did the Swiss guy then got it? Switzerland is not a member of the EU, but they require CE markings, too (http://www.s-ge.com/sites/default/files/Swiss%20legislation%20CE%20marking.pdf).

Only German Customs seem to care about CE marks on private imports.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 09, 2016, 05:17:34 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 09, 2016, 04:48:53 pm

They're not going to check conformity on individual items/packets, only on huge shipments that look like they're for resale.

Huge shipments, right, no problem with Batteroo :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 09, 2016, 05:44:28 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 09, 2016, 04:23:09 pm

Quote from: madires on December 09, 2016, 03:21:32 pm

Customs could withhold it, since it doesn't have a CE sticker. Nor does it include a Declaration of Conformity.

How did the Swiss guy then got it? Switzerland is not a member of the EU, but they require CE markings, too (http://www.s-ge.com/sites/default/files/Swiss%20legislation%20CE%20marking.pdf).

From what I've heard, German customs sometimes checks the small random gadget for a CE label. But I think this happens only in rare cases - too much parcels. Presumably other countries do this the same way. So it's more like having bad luck, than being the usual thing to happen.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on December 09, 2016, 05:47:40 pm

Quote from: madires on December 09, 2016, 05:44:28 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 09, 2016, 04:23:09 pm

Quote from: madires on December 09, 2016, 03:21:32 pm

Customs could withhold it, since it doesn't have a CE sticker. Nor does it include a Declaration of Conformity.

How did the Swiss guy then got it? Switzerland is not a member of the EU, but they require CE markings, too (http://www.s-ge.com/sites/default/files/Swiss%20legislation%20CE%20marking.pdf).

From what I've heard, German customs sometimes checks the small random gadget for a CE label. But I think this happens only in rare cases - too much parcels. Presumably other countries do this the same way. So it's more like having bad luck, than being the usual thing to happen.

Just say it is a prototype, not actual product yet. Case closed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 10, 2016, 09:57:00 am

By the way, if you have a Raspberry Pi, you can use it for logging. See this project (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/raspberry-pi23-logging-platform-for-voltnuts/). There is a SD card image with some programs pre-installed and some examples. It supports already some multimeters with GPIB (with USB adapters), with USB interfaces and serial port interfaces. It is easy to enhance, I just wrote a Python script for my HM8012 (https://github.com/FrankBuss/RPi_LogNut/blob/master/pub/python/HM8012_Log.py) which creates this output (https://github.com/FrankBuss/RPi_LogNut/blob/master/pub/logs/HM8012_Log.csv) (charging a 1200 F Maxwell supercap with 3 A constant current), logging the voltage exactly every 10 seconds, and which you can display with the integrated web browser on the Rasperry Pi. Or you can mount the Raspberry Pi SD card as a Windows drive over network and just open the raw CSV data. No need to swap SD cards, complicated and proprietary software or limited memory (it needs some time to fill e.g. a 64 GB SD card). It looks like this in the browser with the installed D3js (https://d3js.org) web framework for data visualization:

(http://i.imgur.com/QX3iK06.png)

The diagram can be reloaded while the measurement is running. Another example with multiple curves in one diagram:

(http://i.imgur.com/ePoKJ8P.png)

The project needs still some work, maybe an easier to use interface for standard tasks, if you don't want to write a Python script, but it is already very useful for me, and maybe for someone who wants to test the Batteriser and record some data.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 10, 2016, 01:03:07 pm

So yet another week passes and how many extra report getting them? One in Germany?
How many weeks is this now from when they not only said they had shipped, but said in that shipping update that some would already have them by that update notice, it's been so long I've lost count.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 10, 2016, 01:18:00 pm

With the slow shipping I would have said they were using SAPO, but that would have resulted in a few being sold on Ebay already from those that were "lost" in the shipping process.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 10, 2016, 01:34:58 pm

Switzerland, not Germany. And the shipping happens exactly as anticipated.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 10, 2016, 01:51:19 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 10, 2016, 01:03:07 pm

So yet another week passes and how many extra report getting them? One in Germany?

And nobody in the USA.

Quote from: EEVblog on December 10, 2016, 01:03:07 pm

How many weeks is this now from when they not only said they had shipped, but said in that shipping update that some would already have them by that update notice, it's been so long I've lost count.

According to Bob+Wayne they should be approaching 100% shipped by now (Wayne assured us they were at 30% shipped after the first month and had fixed all the bugs in the shipping process).

IGG says there's 7393 backers so a very conservative estimate is that 4000-5000 people should have their Batterisers by now.

Maybe the "30%" number really means that 30% of last-years leftover prototypes had been shipped.  :popcorn:


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=276978;image)

Another update? Why would you need another update?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=276980;image)

a) Tracking codes not working?
b) Using USPS to ship $10 items to thousands of people all over the world?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 10, 2016, 02:17:15 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 10, 2016, 01:51:19 pm

Another update? Why would you need another update?

The next update could be "all items have been shipped" (would be plausible after such a long time after the first announcement that shipping started), to get the rest of the VC money for a nice vacation :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on December 10, 2016, 04:20:00 pm

Quote

According to Bob+Wayne they should be approaching 100% shipped by now (Wayne assured us they were at 30% shipped after the first month and had fixed all the bugs in the shipping process).

I'm not sure I remember the exact word Boob used... was it up to30%?  :-DD

And we have no real way to ascertain what's the total number to really know how many people are in the 30%
After all, I'm 99.9999% sure the backers list are bloated with "FANS"

I gave up poking around in the backers listing after 3-5 pages...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 10, 2016, 05:15:47 pm

Quote from: Luminax on December 10, 2016, 04:20:00 pm

And we have no real way to ascertain what's the total number to really know how many people are in the 30%

I think we can infer it from the number of photos so far.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 10, 2016, 10:31:11 pm

Quote from: wilfred on December 10, 2016, 10:10:56 pm

I haven't followed this thread so closely that I can be sure there is no forum member awaiting delivery. Has anyone here said they ordered some and are awaiting delivery?

Yes.

(I don't remember names, but, "yes")

Quote from: wilfred on December 10, 2016, 10:10:56 pm

Has Dave said he ordered some?

Suuuure... they're going to post some to "David Jones, Australia".

(no, I don't think Dave ordered any on IGG)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on December 11, 2016, 03:59:09 am

Can some be ordered from their website? If they don't arrive within a reasonable time, simply request a charge-back through your bank?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 11, 2016, 06:58:34 am

Another received. I have no idea what order these guys are shipping in...!

http://imgur.com/a/078Xw (http://imgur.com/a/078Xw)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277161;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 11, 2016, 07:11:11 am

Pics from above backer, higher res available at http://imgur.com/a/078Xw (http://imgur.com/a/078Xw) (file size uploads here)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 11, 2016, 07:39:58 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 10, 2016, 10:31:11 pm

Quote from: wilfred on December 10, 2016, 10:10:56 pm

Has Dave said he ordered some?

Suuuure... they're going to post some to "David Jones, Australia".
(no, I don't think Dave ordered any on IGG)

Rest assured that some of the IGG units will be making their way to me...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 11, 2016, 07:44:38 am

From David Kaplan:

Quote

Now as to the Batteroos themselves:
The Good: My Apple trackpad went from 39% battery charge to 87%!

No, they did not go from 39% charge to 87% charge. The voltage indicator went from 39% to 87%. Voltage level meters are very different from actual charge in a battery.
Unfortunately the average lay person will think this ia big deal when in fact it's not and is completely expected from any form of boost converter.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 11, 2016, 07:44:41 am

Since he got his by USPS, is this the first US delivery ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on December 11, 2016, 09:26:15 am

Quote from: quad on December 11, 2016, 07:11:11 am

Pics from above backer, higher res available at http://imgur.com/a/078Xw (http://imgur.com/a/078Xw) (file size uploads here)

Some interesting details in those pictures, the construction looks a little different than I expected, not just a PCB at the top welded to the sleeve, but perhaps a very thin PCB with either potting over the components or some kind of stiffener, then coated in the red insulator?

Also, AA version with Batteroo branded packaging, but Batteriser stamping?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 11, 2016, 10:05:19 am

The fit in that Apple keyboard is ridiculous, I hope the benefits outweigh the inconvenience and expense of bent and broken battery terminals and plastic casings. And, they won't even fit in a Maglite (I assume the original non LED type), one of the very few devices that could have benefited from a Batteroooo :palm:

Is this the "lame changing" technology Bob Rhubarb keeps banging on about?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 11, 2016, 11:37:56 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 11, 2016, 07:44:38 am

From David Kaplan:

Quote

Now as to the Batteroos themselves:
The Good: My Apple trackpad went from 39% battery charge to 87%!

No, they did not go from 39% charge to 87% charge.

Shouldn't it have gone to 100%?  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 11, 2016, 11:42:32 am

Quote from: Blocco on December 11, 2016, 10:05:19 am

The fit in that Apple keyboard is ridiculous, I hope the benefits outweigh the inconvenience and expense of bent and broken battery terminals and plastic casings.

No to mention the battery gauge now being rendered utterly useless  :palm:
It's rather ironic that the one feature (battery gauge going to 100%) that will be used by the public to laud the Batteriser, will be the same feature that the public will eventually ridicule it with (when you product just dies without any low battery warning).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on December 11, 2016, 12:20:06 pm

If there is anything good in the idea at all, battery manufacturers could easily make slightly shorter batteries with a plug-in regulator top to do the job much better then the Batteriser can ever do.

Obviously Batteroo hopes their pending patents somehow give them the rights to royalties for this idea, but the problem is that they didn't invent the boosters or the idea of a single cell battery pack with a built in booster - they just invented the clip that the battery manufacturers would not need or ever want to use.

Their best hope is that if a big battery manufacturer wants to start selling batteries with integrated boosters, they may just pay Batteroo to go away.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 11, 2016, 12:41:01 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 11, 2016, 11:37:56 am

Shouldn't it have gone to 100%?  :popcorn:

This was a different keyboard, see video below. When you search for the CMII ID you can see in the photo of the backer, you can find this FCC page (https://fccid.io/CMII-ID-2003DJ1296) where you can read "Equipment Type: A1016" (and it is very old, from 2003). Searching for A1016 will get you some pages on Amazon and eBay where you can buy it.

Maybe someone here has such a keyboard? At what voltage levels does it show 39% and 87%? With enough such reports from backers, we could draw a characteristics curve :)

But I don't think that these keyboards are so much different. Maybe they faked it in the original video? This might be the reason for using a wireless keyboard as a test: It is really easy to use just another keyboard offscreen and put in fresh batteries.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4zjWynjEo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4zjWynjEo)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 11, 2016, 12:47:27 pm

Quote from: amspire on December 11, 2016, 12:20:06 pm

If there is anything good in the idea at all, battery manufacturers could easily make slightly shorter batteries with a plug-in regulator top to do the job much better then the Batteriser can ever do.

And there is a reason why they haven't done so. I explained above, it's because it would render useless every battery gauge in every product it is put in. It's a fundamentally stupid idea that will do nothing but piss off the customer and make them never buy your batteries again.
Customers do not want the functionality of their product broken, especially the battery gauge.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on December 11, 2016, 12:58:14 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 11, 2016, 07:39:58 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 10, 2016, 10:31:11 pm

Suuuure... they're going to post some to "David Jones, Australia".
(no, I don't think Dave ordered any on IGG)

Rest assured that some of the IGG units will be making their way to me...

You do realize that you have probably single-handedly stopped anybody in Australia that Bob doesn't personally know from actually being shipped any of these?  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on December 11, 2016, 01:00:27 pm

Quote from: Cerebus on December 11, 2016, 12:58:14 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 11, 2016, 07:39:58 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 10, 2016, 10:31:11 pm

Suuuure... they're going to post some to "David Jones, Australia".
(no, I don't think Dave ordered any on IGG)

Rest assured that some of the IGG units will be making their way to me...

You do realize that you have probably single-handedly stopped anybody in Australia that Bob doesn't personally know from actually being shipped any of these?  :)

Goes very well for the rest of the globe as well. Bob knows that he cannot be too careful with this one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on December 11, 2016, 01:33:02 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277165)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277167)

Many years ago I used to work for a large manufacturer of corrugated cardboard boxes, so I know what I'm looking at here. Those boxes are not a stock item, they fit the actual Batteroo product packaging too well. Bob has had to pay to have those made and the economics of a printed, die cut case like that dictate that you don't order a few dozen of them, you order a few thousand. The NRE costs of having the cutting die designed and made dominate the order costs for small (i.e. less than 10-20 thousand) orders. I can tell just from looking that they're not hand cut sample cases, they were actually die cut.

Even if he used the cheapest printer in the world (probably Chinese nowadays), Bob has got a few thousand of those cases sitting somewhere. That's weirdly at odds with all the other evidence that suggests that only a handful of these have actually been shipped and the implication from that, that only a small set of pre-production samples of the actual product are available.

It has been suggested this is an attempt to pass some funding milestone by shipping a few and claiming somewhat more. If so, it's a damn sight more expensive than just dumping a few pre-production samples in a standard box full of packing peanuts and shipping them out. If it is window dressing, then it's required a lot of effort and money and going to that effort to be able to show a major backer 'convincing' final packaging would start to look a lot more like fraud and a lot less like incompetence or getting in over your head.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Revive Batteries on December 11, 2016, 03:47:48 pm

G’day Tossers,

I’m back again (Dave must have forgotten to delete me?).

Anyway, I’d like to use this wank of a blog, to formally let you know that “I am in fact”, going to support the Batteroo Company.
 
Previously I said I had no firm commitment, one way or the other, but now I’ve decided it’s a winner. (Watch how many people say they “already knew”, or “I told you so” – obviously you all knew before me!)

It seems they have a product that will deliver an overall benefit to the average consumer, who by the way, is not generally interested in the “electrical engineering” viewpoint of statistics and graphs showing whether or not it achieves the up to 8 x maximum output that was first quoted over 2 years ago?

Your average person just wants a product that delivers a meaningful benefit at a reasonable price. If it works for them, they will buy again and also recommend it to others.
If not – good bye!!!
The market will decide, which, technically makes you lot completely irrelevant!

I’m sure most people would agree that you need to get over your ongoing obsession about the whole “up to 8x” deal. Quite obviously, it was an exited claim about one individual test 2 ½ years ago and has been pursued by you ever since.

 About time for you lot to catch up with the real world – December 2016 . 

Anyway, try not to troll the innocent commenter’s on Indiegogo too much and stay focused on your real goal, which is...........- WTF is it really????

This bit got me thinking????

Suddenly it clicked - !!!!

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Righto, so now I realise it’s just somebody else on the gravy train! How many gullible people will be jumping on board????

Enough said.
Just try the Batteroos for yourself and make up your own mind.

(You might realise that there is another world outside EEVblog?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on December 11, 2016, 04:41:51 pm

Welcome back tosser.

You are willingly part of a scam product. Is there implication of selling such a product in Australia?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 11, 2016, 04:59:53 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 11, 2016, 11:42:32 am

No to mention the battery gauge now being rendered utterly useless  :palm:
It's rather ironic that the one feature (battery gauge going to 100%) that will be used by the public to laud the Batteriser, will be the same feature that the public will eventually ridicule it with (when you product just dies without any low battery warning).

This is the one I love the most.  :)

It will be fun to see the reaction of all the people who, after their initial impressions (like their battery gauge going up) initally believe these will be a net benefit (Wayne @ Revive Batteries, for example) have when they realize that all these sleeves do in the vast majority of cases is render the battery gauge inoperative.  :)

It is true that you get steadier performance out of a simple motorized toy, for example, but any device in which you get significantly increased performance from, the runtime wll be significantly less for.  It doesn't magically increase the individual cells' capacity!  I don't care about the exact number being less than 8X or 800% or whatever their ridiculous claims are, it's not going to even increase the cell's usable capacity AT ALL!

I've sold plenty of motorized toys of the adult variety variety and they are, indeed, one particular niche (though a huge volume niche) where some people might enjoy the benefit from a boost converter, and indeed, the higher-end products are electonrically controlled and include boost converters but the vast majority of the stuff that people buy are VERY cheap Chineese crap, mostly due to the insane markups.  I get them wholesale at prices ranging down to about 10% of what the retail shops typically charge on some items.   I'm not in the store retail business in any way but their markups are insane!  (Not that most retail markup isn't insane, but this particular market is really insane.)  :)

Many of those customers wouldn't be pleased about the potential for sudden stopping, though, so would probably always put in fresh cells before they... er... use... their toys, which is counter to another of the original claims of saving the environment through reduced cell waste.  I just keep boxes of the Duracell Pro-Cells around and people might want a few extra extra sets if they intend to use a Batteroo sleeve with their toys.  :)

Plus, I always highly recommend rechargables.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 11, 2016, 05:14:56 pm

One thing Bob could do to calm things down a little is state these things are not recommended to be used in devices with battery gauges like he did with LED flashlights.

If these things work I can see them selling good in toy stores.

My guess is the adult entertainment industry does not use gauges  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on December 11, 2016, 05:15:22 pm

Quote from: Barny on December 11, 2016, 05:03:55 pm

Quote from: Revive Batteries on December 11, 2016, 03:47:48 pm

I’m back again (Dave must have forgotten to delete me?).

Only the Batteroo people are deleting postings and baning people with unpleasant opinions and statements.

He asked to have his account deleted.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 11, 2016, 06:21:33 pm

I think this forum needs a section for social engineering  >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 11, 2016, 06:26:10 pm

Quote from: Revive Batteries on December 11, 2016, 03:47:48 pm

I’m back again (Dave must have forgotten to delete me?).

Why would he do that?

Quote from: Revive Batteries on December 11, 2016, 03:47:48 pm

(You might realise that there is another world outside EEVblog?)

Looking for snake oil products to sell to innocent people?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 11, 2016, 07:56:40 pm

Quote from: ez24 on December 11, 2016, 05:14:56 pm

One thing Bob could do to calm things down a little is state these things are not recommended to be used in devices with battery gauges like he did with LED flashlights.

If these things work I can see them selling good in toy stores.

My guess is the adult entertainment industry does not use gauges  :-DD

No, they rely on feel alone. Amplitude is the determining factor, along with frequency.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 11, 2016, 10:07:00 pm

People are getting curious about the 9v promise... funny how Bob has been completely ignoring this?

As much as I may disagree with Wayne on this particular issue, I do acknowledge that declaring his vested interest is the most decent thing anyone associated with Batteroo has done?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277317;image)

And just again for everyone, EEVBlog people care about the data, the curves..... Batteroo have just been acting all weird about it, and in the absence of accurate information, speculation (entertaining speculation, mind you!) ensues.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 11, 2016, 10:15:04 pm

Quote from: Revive Batteries on December 11, 2016, 03:47:48 pm

G’day Tossers,
I’m back again (Dave must have forgotten to delete me?).

I knew you'd come back.
But ok, now your account is banned as requested so you won't accidentally be temped to come back.
Thanks for all the fish.

Everyone, can we focus on the Batteriser please, this thread is ridiculously long as it is.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on December 11, 2016, 11:36:44 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on December 11, 2016, 11:32:25 pm

Dave, please edit his post removing all the part were he asks for donation.

I dont think he was asking for donations, he was taking a cheap shot at Dave re his Patreon account and donations to keep the blog going etc.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Someone on December 11, 2016, 11:46:39 pm

Quote from: firewalker on December 11, 2016, 04:41:51 pm

You are willingly part of a scam product. Is there implication of selling such a product in Australia?

Advertising standards a quite strict in Australia, so it will depend on what they claim the product does. But the regulators don't really go after small fish so they might just ignore it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on December 12, 2016, 12:54:14 am

Interesting new post from wayne.  Did anyone else notice that he *didn't say a single thing about the performance of the units he already has* in any definite, meaningful way?  I would have thought by now if they actually were 8x800% better than the universe he would be all about the gloating.

Its almost like he knows, after his testing, they are mostly bunk, but figures the average consumer will fall for it (as proven on indiegogo) and can use this opportunity as a reseller to make some $$$

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on December 12, 2016, 01:57:12 am

(I'm pretty sure anyone reading this knows the following already, but just to spell it out)

Quote from: Revive Batteries on December 11, 2016, 03:47:48 pm

It seems they have a product that will deliver an overall benefit to the average consumer, who by the way, is not generally interested in the “electrical engineering” viewpoint of statistics and graphs showing whether or not it achieves the up to 8 x maximum output that was first quoted over 2 years ago?

Quote

I’m sure most people would agree that you need to get over your ongoing obsession about the whole “up to 8x” deal. Quite obviously, it was an exited claim about one individual test 2 ½ years ago and has been pursued by you ever since.

They were still proclaiming the 'Up to 8x' spiel right up until the week before the product had started to ship, which they then changed to 'increased significantly'.  Probably because they were informed by their lawyers that the 8x claim would run afoul of the various advertising authority and trading standards laws.  So it's erroneous to say that it was an exaggerated claim after a single test and that the 'crazies on the EEVBlog #751' [sic] are latching on to it as a way to point out the products failings. 

Remember, that figure was the cornerstone of their marketing campaign for the last 2.5 years!  For them to change it at the very last minute just reinforces the belief that it was grade A bullshit in the first place.
 

Quote

Your average person just wants a product that delivers a meaningful benefit at a reasonable price. If it works for them, they will buy again and also recommend it to others.
If not – good bye!!!
The market will decide, which, technically makes you lot completely irrelevant!

That's a good point and very shortsighted of Wayne.  What do you think will happen when consumers do finally get their hands on this product, only to find out that it does not perform as claimed?  Do you think they will be recommending it to friends?  So really, it doesn't matter what is said here,  people will buy the product, see that it's junk and not recommend it.

Quote

Anyway, try not to troll the innocent commenter’s on Indiegogo too much and stay focused on your real goal, which is...........- WTF is it really????

This bit got me thinking????

Suddenly it clicked - !!!!

Donate

Quote

Righto, so now I realise it’s just somebody else on the gravy train! How many gullible people will be jumping on board????

Enough said.

Pot, kettle, black.  Wayne is now jumping on EEVBlogs 'gravy train' to try and sell his stock.  I can guarantee that EEVBlog gets more visits per day that Revive Batteries.  So unfortunately, the more hoo-hah that Wayne gets on this forum means more views for him, and he knows this. 

Is it irony that Wayne is trying to call out Dave on this by saying 'It's a big scam to make money for the EEVBlog', when in reality that's *exactly* what Wayne is trying to do?

Quote

Just try the Batteroos for yourself and make up your own mind.

That's exactly the entire point of this thread, we want to see a qualified engineer test these things properly, but it seems no one wants to let us get access to them.  You don't need a tinfoil hat to see why Wayne & Batteroo are both very, very reluctant for this to happen.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 12, 2016, 03:32:29 am

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on December 12, 2016, 01:57:12 am

Quote

Your average person just wants a product that delivers a meaningful benefit at a reasonable price. If it works for them, they will buy again and also recommend it to others.
If not – good bye!!!
The market will decide, which, technically makes you lot completely irrelevant!

That's a good point and very shortsighted of Wayne.  What do you think will happen when consumers do finally get their hands on this product, only to find out that it does not perform as claimed?  Do you think they will be recommending it to friends?  So really, it doesn't matter what is said here,  people will buy the product, see that it's junk and not recommend it.

Maybe Wayne is shortsighted - maybe he isn't.  Maybe he's just willing to take a product and present it to the market and let the market decide.

He does make one very valid point ... "Your average person just wants a product that delivers a meaningful benefit at a reasonable price."  That "meaningful benefit" need only be one thing.  Exactly what that is for each purchaser may differ, but it does NOT mean that every claim ever made has to be evaluated and confirmed.

Let me offer this hypothetical product: A car - but one that was promoted as having great styling, excellent fuel economy and top of the range handling at an affordable price.  When it gets released, the styling is seen to be boring, the fuel economy a joke and the handling is borderline scary - but the price is as advertised - and it goes like the clappers!!

The engineers will (quite rightly) condemn it for the pile of crap that it is ... but you can bet your boots it is going to sell, at least at the outset.

Sure the Batteroo sleeve is challenged on a number of it's "engineering claims" - but if the public finds something useful to do with it, they will buy it.


As I've said before, the poor communication and delays from Batteroo will be mostly forgotten, should the product roll out be completed.  While this is still to be shown, we are getting tantalizing teasers.  However, these cannot be discounted as carefully placed seeds of hope, since there is no clear indication that the shipping process currently under way is dispatching thousands of units.

Quote from: Revive Batteries on December 11, 2016, 03:47:48 pm

Just try the Batteroos for yourself and make up your own mind.

I would love to, but ....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on December 12, 2016, 03:55:59 am

Quote

Let me offer this hypothetical product: A car - but one that was promoted as having great styling, excellent fuel economy and top of the range handling at an affordable price.  When it gets released, the styling is seen to be boring, the fuel economy a joke and the handling is borderline scary - but the price is as advertised - and it goes like the clappers!!

The engineers will (quite rightly) condemn it for the pile of crap that it is ... but you can bet your boots it is going to sell, at least at the outset.

Respectfully, that's not a very good analogy.  Unlike the hypothetical car, the Batteriser doesn't have multiple features, it has a single feature, to make battery life longer, which it's not very good at.  If the Batteriser was a rechargeable battery with a built-in boost converter, than maybe the analogy would work better perhaps.

Quote

Sure the Batteroo sleeve is challenged on a number of it's "engineering claims" - but if the public finds something useful to do with it, they will buy it.

Right now, the only useful applications seem to be cheap vibrators and motorised kids toys.  Can't wait to see Bob at the next Adult Video Entertainment Awards dressed as Probes the Monkey waving around a cheap rubber dong.....

Quote

As I've said before, the poor communication and delays from Batteroo will be mostly forgotten, should the product roll out be completed.

TBH it seems that outside of a few nerdy engineers and the wishful kickstarter bunch, the majority of people have zero interest in the product and will be promptly forgotten altogether.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 12, 2016, 04:31:15 am

People , please, do not post about Wayne again, just let him disappear into obscurity, he is not coming back.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 12, 2016, 04:41:06 am

Then, remove any reference to "He who shall not be named".  The basis for my points still stands.

You have completely missed the point, Sonny_Jim.  It's not about what the Batteroo sleeve can't do - it's about what it can - as miserable as that might be for some people.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 12, 2016, 05:00:51 am

I reckon there is a good chance that the tab or fold for the negative battery terminal could get caught up in the connection spring inside some devices, I hope they provide a warranty statement of some type with these products.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 12, 2016, 05:06:31 am

Quote from: wilfred on December 12, 2016, 04:55:33 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 12, 2016, 03:32:29 am

- but if the public finds something useful to do with it, they will buy it.

Not even that is a necessary reason to buy something. I have a box of devboards to prove it.

(I am suddenly feeling a bit self-conscious .... for some unknown reason   :-[ )

Quote

And as far as BAtteroo goes it doesn't have to get anywhere near the most extreme claims to be somewhat useful in products like toys. Extracting all the energy and still giving good performance right up to the end is all that is required. If my LEGO train stopped suddenly without warning but wasn't crawling along at the end then it would have been fantastic.

That's the sort of thing I was thinking about.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on December 12, 2016, 05:08:27 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 12, 2016, 04:31:15 am

People , please, do not post about Wayne again, just let him disappear into obscurity, he is not coming back.

So Dave, how do you plan on getting a sleeve or two in your hot little hands? Seeing as nobody from Revive Batteries has any clue, we're all looking to you.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 12, 2016, 05:10:56 am

Quote from: wilfred on December 12, 2016, 04:55:33 am

And as far as BAtteroo goes it doesn't have to get anywhere near the most extreme claims to be somewhat useful in products like toys. Extracting all the energy and still giving good performance right up to the end is all that is required. If my LEGO train stopped suddenly without warning but wasn't crawling along at the end then it would have been fantastic.

That's not what Batteroo are claiming though. If they'd claimed that from the start then this entire thread wouldn't exist.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 12, 2016, 05:34:26 am

Quote from: Halcyon on December 12, 2016, 05:08:27 am

So Dave, how do you plan on getting a sleeve or two in your hot little hands? Seeing as nobody from Revive Batteries has any clue, we're all looking to you.

Rest assured that if Batteroo deliver all their perks then some will find their way into my hands.
They have obviously only delivered a small numbers of backer units so far, otherwise I'd already have some.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 12, 2016, 06:01:34 am

Quote from: wilfred on December 12, 2016, 05:42:00 am

If these things ever appear in widespread use they will succeed or fail based on how well they satisfy real everyday use.

I doubt I will buy them. ... If it isn't cheap toys I don't know what use case exists.

You just admitted they don't satisfy real everyday use.

Quote from: wilfred on December 12, 2016, 05:42:00 am

maintaining the rage about the original ridiculous claims is a self serving wank

"Original"?

This is Batteroo's website right now:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277377;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277379;image)

That's what's being sold to people. How is that not outrageous?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 12, 2016, 06:10:05 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 12, 2016, 06:01:34 am

This is Batteroo's website right now:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277377;image)

Yes, their claim has been massaged a bit in terms of wording but their main claim about the amount of unused energy in batteries is still outrageously front and centre. It's also not in line with their main claim now that passive devices get the most value out of the Batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on December 12, 2016, 06:34:09 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 12, 2016, 04:41:06 am

You have completely missed the point, Sonny_Jim.  It's not about what the Batteroo sleeve can't do - it's about what it can - as miserable as that might be for some people.

Well, enlighten me.  What can it do then?

It can drain the battery faster when used in a device that already has a boost converter
It can get jammed in battery compartments

It can't increase useful battery life in the vast majority of applications

Quote from: wilfred

I'm sufficiently disinterested in tracking the various mathematics of the benefit claims and if or whether they have changed over time to debate them.

Isn't that the entire point of this thread?  To investigate the claims Batteriser have made and use science and reasoning to see if they are plausible?  I'm beginning to think you might be in the wrong place.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 12, 2016, 08:18:11 am

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on December 12, 2016, 06:34:09 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 12, 2016, 04:41:06 am

You have completely missed the point, Sonny_Jim.  It's not about what the Batteroo sleeve can't do - it's about what it can - as miserable as that might be for some people.

Well, enlighten me.  What can it do then?

There's no point in me trying to answer that, because you are not prepared to listen - as evidenced by your following comments and other examples...

Quote

It can drain the battery faster when used in a device that already has a boost converter
It can get jammed in battery compartments

It can't increase useful battery life in the vast majority of applications

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on December 12, 2016, 08:55:25 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 12, 2016, 08:18:11 am

There's no point in me trying to answer that, because you are not prepared to listen - as evidenced by your following comments and other examples...

I read your car analogy and it made zero sense to me.  I've looked through some of your previous posts about this subject, some of it is about the packaging it comes in.  The best I can see is this post you made:

Quote

As much as we all understand what the Batteroo sleeve CAN'T do, we had better allow ourselves to acknowledge what it can or might be able to do - because if Bob and Co. come up with a list of, say, 3 marketable things that the product can deliver - even if they are not what was in the original design spec. - then the utterly condemning EE's have lost all credibility in the eyes of the general public.

If I'm reading that correctly, you feel as long as there's any situation where these things can actually increase battery life, then it absolves Bob and Co. from all the outlandish claims they've made during their marketing campaign.  I don't think I can agree with that, I'm afraid.

To use a better car analogy:

A manufacturer launches a new modification kit that can be added to an existing car, that uses decades old technology that can improve fuel consumption figures.  The majority of cars already have this technology fitted from the factory.  Adding this kit also has the side effect of rendering the fuel gauge useless.

The mod kit manufacturer then starts making videos with the mod kit fitted to cars that already have this technology, saying that 'Big Oil' don't want you find out about this amazing new technology.

Mechanics point out that not only is this kit pointless in the majority of cars, it may actually cause a greater fuel drain.

Your point is that as long as there are some cars around that may benefit from this modification, then the mechanics should keep schtum about it?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 12, 2016, 09:00:55 am

Quote from: wilfred on December 12, 2016, 06:57:21 am

You cut right to the heart of the matter. The Batteroo does need to be investigated and it's performance rigorously examined.

Watching the designers/sellers do everything in their power to avoid people doing that doesn't entertain you?

To me it suggests the final performance curve will be highly entertaining.

Quote from: wilfred on December 12, 2016, 06:57:21 am

... serving a useful purpose other than to provide entertainment?

Entertainment is useful.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 12, 2016, 09:05:22 am

Quote from: Cerebus on December 11, 2016, 01:33:02 pm

Many years ago I used to work for a large manufacturer of corrugated cardboard boxes, so I know what I'm looking at here. Those boxes are not a stock item, they fit the actual Batteroo product packaging too well. Bob has had to pay to have those made and the economics of a printed, die cut case like that dictate that you don't order a few dozen of them, you order a few thousand. The NRE costs of having the cutting die designed and made dominate the order costs for small (i.e. less than 10-20 thousand) orders. I can tell just from looking that they're not hand cut sample cases, they were actually die cut.

Sure, but maybe the dies, etc., were made about 18 months ago when Bob was riding the wave (instead of being in damage-limitation mode like he is now).

Same goes for the plastic boxes. There were photos of those at least a year ago.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 12, 2016, 10:34:31 am

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on December 12, 2016, 08:55:25 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 12, 2016, 08:18:11 am

There's no point in me trying to answer that, because you are not prepared to listen - as evidenced by your following comments and other examples...

I read your car analogy and it made zero sense to me.  I've looked through some of your previous posts about this subject, some of it is about the packaging it comes in.  The best I can see is this post you made:

Quote

As much as we all understand what the Batteroo sleeve CAN'T do, we had better allow ourselves to acknowledge what it can or might be able to do - because if Bob and Co. come up with a list of, say, 3 marketable things that the product can deliver - even if they are not what was in the original design spec. - then the utterly condemning EE's have lost all credibility in the eyes of the general public.

If I'm reading that correctly, you feel as long as there's any situation where these things can actually increase battery life, then it absolves Bob and Co. from all the outlandish claims they've made during their marketing campaign.  I don't think I can agree with that, I'm afraid.

To use a better car analogy:

A manufacturer launches a new modification kit that can be added to an existing car, that uses decades old technology that can improve fuel consumption figures.  The majority of cars already have this technology fitted from the factory.  Adding this kit also has the side effect of rendering the fuel gauge useless.

The mod kit manufacturer then starts making videos with the mod kit fitted to cars that already have this technology, saying that 'Big Oil' don't want you find out about this amazing new technology.

Mechanics point out that not only is this kit pointless in the majority of cars, it may actually cause a greater fuel drain.

Your point is that as long as there are some cars around that may benefit from this modification, then the mechanics should keep schtum about it?

You've just proven once again why it would be pointless for me to try to explain it to you.  You just cannot see past your own nose.

My original car analogy was perfectly capable of demonstrating the point I wanted to make.  You just chose to not see it - or were unable to.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 12, 2016, 10:39:08 am

While this thread is meant to be about debunking a product, it has grown into something a bit bigger.  Be that as it may, there is a lot of interest in the content of this thread and the debunk is under scrutiny.

It is my belief that credibility is derived from objectivity.  If we have any respect for objectivity, we have to allow every aspect to be included - both those that support the premise as well as those that are in conflict with it.  If we don't, then the critics have the opportunity to denounce those findings as utterly biased and will be able to present a believable argument.

Even Dave has made a clear point of acknowledging one of the basic details of the Batteroo sleeve - in big, bold, red text, no less.

I've been trying to make the distinction between the engineering analysis and the public response to the product.  As much as Batteroo can be fairly called out on the shortcomings of the claims, the public won't care - as long as it does something for them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 12, 2016, 10:43:53 am

In short, the product may absolutely fail in every claim, but if the paying public find a use for it, it will sell.




... doesn't excuse Bob and co, though.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 12, 2016, 10:51:13 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 12, 2016, 10:43:53 am

In short, the product may absolutely fail in every claim, but if the paying public find a use for it, it will sell.

Yes, but the public should be told what that use is.

Telling the public that it's 800% better in all cases is fraud.

If you want a car analogy it's like advertising cars that can do "up 800 mpg" when in fact you're most likely to get worse mileage than ordinary cars.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ErikTheNorwegian on December 12, 2016, 12:33:43 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 12, 2016, 10:34:31 am

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on December 12, 2016, 08:55:25 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 12, 2016, 08:18:11 am

There's no point in me trying to answer that, because you are not prepared to listen - as evidenced by your following comments and other examples...

I read your car analogy and it made zero sense to me.  I've looked through some of your previous posts about this subject, some of it is about the packaging it comes in.  The best I can see is this post you made:

Quote

As much as we all understand what the Batteroo sleeve CAN'T do, we had better allow ourselves to acknowledge what it can or might be able to do - because if Bob and Co. come up with a list of, say, 3 marketable things that the product can deliver - even if they are not what was in the original design spec. - then the utterly condemning EE's have lost all credibility in the eyes of the general public.

If I'm reading that correctly, you feel as long as there's any situation where these things can actually increase battery life, then it absolves Bob and Co. from all the outlandish claims they've made during their marketing campaign.  I don't think I can agree with that, I'm afraid.

To use a better car analogy:

A manufacturer launches a new modification kit that can be added to an existing car, that uses decades old technology that can improve fuel consumption figures.  The majority of cars already have this technology fitted from the factory.  Adding this kit also has the side effect of rendering the fuel gauge useless.

The mod kit manufacturer then starts making videos with the mod kit fitted to cars that already have this technology, saying that 'Big Oil' don't want you find out about this amazing new technology.

Mechanics point out that not only is this kit pointless in the majority of cars, it may actually cause a greater fuel drain.

Your point is that as long as there are some cars around that may benefit from this modification, then the mechanics should keep schtum about it?

You've just proven once again why it would be pointless for me to try to explain it to you.  You just cannot see past your own nose.

My original car analogy was perfectly capable of demonstrating the point I wanted to make.  You just chose to not see it - or were unable to.

Similar cases, to Batteriser, claiming one thing and selling another.
In this case, Tesla  electric cars hand a false claim of HP has been true the Consumer Help Center in Norway. Tesla has now some time before they can argue the case and take it  further up   into the  court system if they decide to.
Tesla sold cars, the model S P85D and claiming they had 700 HP and accelerated from 0-100Km/t in 3.2 seconds.  Test later shows that the cars only had 436 HP, and not meet the claimed acceleration.
Several owners of the cars did not this pass easily, and wanted a reduction in the price paid. Tesla did not agree and the case ended in the Norwegian Consumer court.
Tesla had to pay, after a court ruling 50.000 NKR, about  7.700 € back to the to the owners due to the fact that the cars got 20% less HP than advertised.

Erik

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-norway-settlement-idUSKBN1411BJ (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-norway-settlement-idUSKBN1411BJ)
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-21/tesla-sued-by-car-owners-in-norway-as-speed-not-insane-enough (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-21/tesla-sued-by-car-owners-in-norway-as-speed-not-insane-enough)

http://s1.dn.no/privat/dnBil/2016/06/30/0815/norske-teslaeiere-tilkjent-erstatning (http://s1.dn.no/privat/dnBil/2016/06/30/0815/norske-teslaeiere-tilkjent-erstatning)
http://www.vg.no/forbruker/bil-baat-og-motor/elbil/tesla-eiere-er-tilkjent-erstatning/a/23726722/ (http://www.vg.no/forbruker/bil-baat-og-motor/elbil/tesla-eiere-er-tilkjent-erstatning/a/23726722/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 12, 2016, 12:38:50 pm

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on December 12, 2016, 06:34:09 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 12, 2016, 04:41:06 am

You have completely missed the point, Sonny_Jim.  It's not about what the Batteroo sleeve can't do - it's about what it can - as miserable as that might be for some people.

Well, enlighten me.  What can it do then?

I think the Batteroo sleeves would be useful for simple gadgets without any battery gauge and with a direct impact of the voltage on the performance, especially when using rechargeable batteries. Things like Probes the Monkey or Chinese "good vibrations" would benefit. The latter could be a viable market. Anyway, it's not what Batteroo has advertised from the beginning.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 12, 2016, 12:47:56 pm

Erik - fair point, but I can't see a cheap Batteroo sleeve that falls short of it's claims driving that sort of legal action.  Most dissatisfied people will just bag it and write it off as a waste of money.

madires - agreed.  The original claims were impossible - and even the current claims are a fantasy.  But as much as the engineering analysis shows certain (striking) issues - the retailers and public will still want to find some good in it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CJay on December 12, 2016, 01:34:20 pm

I reckon, if it ever sees the mass market, it'll end up being flogged on QVC or similar where the rest of the impractical gadgets of limited to zero use/value end up,.

It's quite amusing to browse the local QVC outlet stores where you can find goods similar to Homer's Juice Loosener

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viejY6UZ5Bk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viejY6UZ5Bk)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on December 12, 2016, 02:52:44 pm

Sonny_Jim & Brumby, you are talking about two entirely different things...

Sonny_Jim is talking about whether the product meets its stated claims.

Brumby is talking about whether the produce can enjoy even a nominal amount of commercial success.

These two things are not necessarily mutually exclusive.  There are plenty of people out there who will derive some benefit (or at least think they do), even though it does not meet the EE community's very strict set of data-driven benefits.  The audiophool industry is just one example of an entire industry built on charging people ridiculous amounts of money for what is in effect a non-measurable benefit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on December 12, 2016, 03:02:50 pm

Quote from: madires on December 12, 2016, 12:38:50 pm

I think the Batteroo sleeves would be useful for simple gadgets without any battery gauge and with a direct impact of the voltage on the performance, especially when using rechargeable batteries. Things like Probes the Monkey or Chinese "good vibrations" would benefit. The latter could be a viable market. Anyway, it's not what Batteroo has advertised from the beginning.

Why even put the caveat that the gadget doesn't have a battery gauge?  I will disagree with Dave & others making the (valid) point that the battery gauge is rendered useless when the Batteriser is used.  So what?  It's not like I'm monitoring the battery gauge on my wireless keyboard (if I had one anyway) to count how many hours I have until my battery dies so I can plan ahead and be ready.  I have a box of batteries in my drawer, and when the keyboard stops working, I replace them.  I don't really care what the battery gauge says.

Now okay, there are some applications where this isn't the case and that I would actually pay attention to what the gauge says.  But in most cases, like the guy with the LEGO train, even if the device works better (faster, brighter, whatever) for awhile, but then suddenly stops earlier than what it would have done without the Batteriser, maybe that's a good thing.

As an example, my satellite TV receiver has been displaying a "low battery" warning on the screen for literally the past 4-5 months.  I have been ignoring it.  I will wait until the day when I hit a button and nothing happens, then I will replace the batteries.  The "gauge" that it shows me on the screen is meaningless to me, and even a distraction.  And if I were to use Batteroo standards to determine when to call the test quits (i.e. when the very first low battery warning appeared), I could even (incorrectly) make the claim that yes, the Batteroo did actually extend the life of my remote (even though as I know, you can actually get several more months of use after the first warning appears).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 12, 2016, 04:10:01 pm

Quote from: madires on December 12, 2016, 12:38:50 pm

...
especially when using rechargeable batteries.

Except that they specifically say to NOT use them with rechargeable calls.

As I've said several times before, if the product had been designed as a converter which boosted the typical 1.2v from a rechargeable to 1.5v, it could be a useful product in more instances.  They could even have the converter attempt to mimic the output voltage curve somewhat so that battery gauges would still work, at least somewhat...  but NO, it is supposedly to be used only with primary cells.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 12, 2016, 04:31:42 pm

Quote from: drussell on December 12, 2016, 04:10:01 pm

Quote from: madires on December 12, 2016, 12:38:50 pm

...
especially when using rechargeable batteries.

Except that they specifically say to NOT use them with rechargeable calls.

Possibly to prevent users from draining the rechargeables too much, because that would destroy them.

Quote from: drussell on December 12, 2016, 04:10:01 pm

As I've said several times before, if the product had been designed as a converter which boosted the typical 1.2v from a rechargeable to 1.5v, it could be a useful product in more instances.  They could even have the converter attempt to mimic the output voltage curve somewhat so that battery gauges would still work, at least somewhat...  but NO, it is supposedly to be used only with primary cells.

They simply would have to design a version with a cut-off voltage for rechargeable cells.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 12, 2016, 07:32:48 pm

Quote from: madires on December 12, 2016, 04:31:42 pm

Quote from: drussell on December 12, 2016, 04:10:01 pm

Except that they specifically say to NOT use them with rechargeable calls.

Possibly to prevent users from draining the rechargeables too much, because that would destroy them.

Well, that depends on the chemistry of the cell...  Some don't like repeated deep discharge (like lead acid, of course), but for NiCd, for example, you're SUPPOSED to store them in as deeply discharged of a state as possible (or fully discharged, then stored shorted) to prolong the cell life.

For long term storage of spacecraft NiCd battery packs, NASA reccomends:

1. Discharge at C/2 constant current rate to first cell at 1.0 Volts
2. Drain each cell with a 1 ohm resistor to less than 0.03V
3. Short each cell with a bar
4. Place batteries in a sealed bag with dessicant (stops condensation)
5. Store in cold temperature (about 0 deg C)

Edit:  Note that for battery packs, you must discharge each cell individually!!!
Trying to fully dicharge multiple cells in series will end up reverse-charging the cells that get low first with the "magic pixie juice" from the rest of the cells and destroy the first ones!!!

Quote

Quote from: drussell on December 12, 2016, 04:10:01 pm

As I've said several times before, if the product had been designed as a converter which boosted the typical 1.2v from a rechargeable to 1.5v, it could be a useful product in more instances.  They could even have the converter attempt to mimic the output voltage curve somewhat so that battery gauges would still work, at least somewhat...  but NO, it is supposedly to be used only with primary cells.

They simply would have to design a version with a cut-off voltage for rechargeable cells.

Well, obviously....  and that would be a far more useful product for all those circumstances where the various rechargable cell chemistries don't work well in products designed for primary cells...   

But that isn't what they're peddling!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mc172 on December 12, 2016, 07:44:19 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 12, 2016, 06:01:34 am

"Original"?

This is Batteroo's website right now:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277377;image)

That's what's being sold to people.

It might be now, but it wasn't originally. It's missing a zero.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html)

(http://www.eevblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/batteriser_final_logo_tag.png)

8 times is 800%.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 12, 2016, 08:03:26 pm

Quote from: mc172 on December 12, 2016, 07:44:19 pm

8 times is 800%.

The one claim I think they've never changed was that devices only use 20% of the power. All the rest is bad math.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 12, 2016, 09:23:03 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 12, 2016, 08:03:26 pm

Quote from: mc172 on December 12, 2016, 07:44:19 pm

8 times is 800%.

The one claim I think they've never changed was that devices only use 20% of the power. All the rest is bad math.

Bob Math:

100%-20% = 80%  = 8x =  8 times

So according to Bob Math these put out 8 times the power.  AND I would like you to prove me wrong  :-DD

No one can show that Bob Math is wrong (using his Bats).   So I believe according to mathematicians something is true if it cannot be proved false (like gravity), thus it must be true.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 13, 2016, 01:15:22 am

A lousy one more
(http://i.imgur.com/SDvS6Mh.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: boffin on December 13, 2016, 02:16:42 am

MATH:

If a battery lasts 1 SNAFU of time;

80% longer = 1.8 SNAFUs
800% longer = 9 SNAFUs
8x as long = 8 SNAFUs
"taps into the 80% left behind" = 5 SNAFUs

Which is it Bob ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: forrestc on December 13, 2016, 03:22:12 am

I agree that there's some quite bad math going on....

Starting with the (most likely incorrect) statement that only 20% of the capacity of  a battery is used, and that batteriser lets you use 100%...  then the following statements would be mathematically correct:

a) You are able to extract the remaining 80% of capacity.
b) Get 5 times the energy out of the battery (20% would be 1 times)  (not 8x)
c) 400% more energy out of your battery (not 800%)

And other similar mathematical constructions.

But this whole 80% = 8x = 800% drives me nuts.   Math doesn't work that way.

It's either 80% = 5x = 400%, or 12.5% = 8x = 700% more, or 11.1% = 9x = 800% more.  Pick one.

(I'd also be ok if they said 8x = 800% of the capacity, which is the same as 700% more capacity).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 13, 2016, 03:37:42 am

Quote from: forrestc on December 13, 2016, 03:22:12 am

Math doesn't work that way.

Bob Math works the way Bob says

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 13, 2016, 04:09:27 am

Perhaps his calculator batteries are flat.   :-BROKE

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on December 13, 2016, 04:46:36 am

Nope, he's using Joe hockey's eleventy calculator.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/a-taxing-tale-of-woe-for-eleventy-joe-20150402-1mdiht.html

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 13, 2016, 05:18:37 am

another

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277634;image)

EDIT:

If you have a Batteriser and you're reading this, get in touch with Dave at EEVBlog https://www.eevblog.com/about/contact/ (https://www.eevblog.com/about/contact/)

 Be a hero, and get $100 for your efforts  :-+

It'll be a pleasant experience, I promise! And you can remain anonymous if you wish.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Towger on December 13, 2016, 06:40:52 am

Kevin sounds as if he would be happy to send some Dave's way for a few bob.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 13, 2016, 07:03:36 am

Quote from: Towger on December 13, 2016, 06:40:52 am

Kevin sounds as if he would be happy to send some Dave's way for a few bob.

You can't contact people via IGG though. Someone would have the post in the comments and for him to see it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 13, 2016, 07:07:57 am

Quote from: quad on December 13, 2016, 05:18:37 am

another

It seems as though the people saying they haven't received them (or a shipping notification) outnumber the ones that say they have?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 13, 2016, 07:09:59 am

I think it might be the first instance of a negative statement that has been made by a recipient to date, I cant recall any others.

Nice work quad.   :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 13, 2016, 07:22:28 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 13, 2016, 07:03:36 am

Someone would have the post in the comments and for him to see it.

I have wondering why no one does this?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 13, 2016, 09:12:44 am

Batteroooo evangelist Wa**** (he who cannot be named) was kind enough to advertise this blog in his last IGG post so it's possible one of the more objective recipients (i.e. someone who doesn't believe they've witnessed an actual miracle when their device's battery gauge jumps to 100%) will read it and get in touch.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Zucca on December 13, 2016, 10:27:49 am

Can´t wait to see Dave with one of them in his hands.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 13, 2016, 11:20:56 am

Well, guys... they work!  ;)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277688;image)

It's kind of like they're posting out 3-5 boxes a day?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 13, 2016, 11:33:41 am

Quote from: Towger on December 13, 2016, 06:40:52 am

Kevin sounds as if he would be happy to send some Dave's way for a few bob.

At the rate Batteroo are shipping, the second hand market may be the place to pick these up. Ebay, Craigslist, Gumtree... under the heading "Batteriser - UNWANTED XMAS GIFT"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 13, 2016, 11:56:42 am

Quote from: quad on December 13, 2016, 11:20:56 am

Well, guys... they work!  ;)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277688;image)

Looks like the consumer definition of "work" is: Device still powers on.

Did they forget why they bought them?

Quote from: quad on December 13, 2016, 11:20:56 am

It's kind of like they're posting out 3-5 boxes a day?

Less.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on December 13, 2016, 12:15:00 pm

Quote from: quad on December 13, 2016, 05:18:37 am

another

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277634;image)

I heard batteroos are great for solar-powered calculators!  ;)  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on December 13, 2016, 12:28:34 pm

I would like the AAA version for my calculator that already has been working for 8 years with the same batteries in it. :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 13, 2016, 12:34:42 pm

Quote from: quad on December 13, 2016, 11:20:56 am

Well, guys... they work!  ;)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277688;image)

Oh well, that settles it. Time to close this thread.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 13, 2016, 01:05:27 pm

Yeah.....  riiiiiiiight.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 13, 2016, 01:58:05 pm

Some Australian bloke on IGG is trying to discourage recipients from cooperating with anyone wishing to carry out formal testing of Batterooooos, I wonder why?

A cynic might conclude that there is a conspiracy to prevent, or at least, delay the truth about the Batteroo's performance from becoming public; what other motivation could there be?.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CJay on December 13, 2016, 02:10:02 pm

I see a market opening, I'm about to launch an IGG campaign to develop and market an extraction tool for jammed battery booster sleeves.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on December 13, 2016, 02:17:35 pm

Extracteroo, now gets 800% more batteroo sleeve out of your stuck batteroo!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on December 13, 2016, 03:00:19 pm

Shirley, when you've put forced the dead batterloo'd batteries into your device, its "Battery Charge Meter" should then read 400%.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 13, 2016, 03:02:09 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 13, 2016, 01:58:05 pm

Some Australian bloke on IGG is trying to discourage recipients from cooperating with anyone wishing to carry out formal testing of Batterooooos, I wonder why?

A cynic might conclude that there is a conspiracy to prevent, or at least, delay the truth about the Batteroo's performance from becoming public; what other motivation could there be?.

He wants to be the Aussie distributor for Batteroo sleeves. Bad test reports would destroy his opportunity to resell the sleeves.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 13, 2016, 03:14:48 pm

Quote from: madires on December 13, 2016, 03:02:09 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 13, 2016, 01:58:05 pm

Some Australian bloke on IGG is trying to discourage recipients from cooperating with anyone wishing to carry out formal testing of Batterooooos, I wonder why?

A cynic might conclude that there is a conspiracy to prevent, or at least, delay the truth about the Batteroo's performance from becoming public; what other motivation could there be?.

He wants to be the Aussie distributor for Batteroo sleeves. Bad test reports would destroy his opportunity to resell the sleeves.

Yes, I know who "he" is but didn't want speak his name :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 13, 2016, 03:25:14 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 13, 2016, 03:14:48 pm

Quote from: madires on December 13, 2016, 03:02:09 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 13, 2016, 01:58:05 pm

Some Australian bloke on IGG is trying to discourage recipients from cooperating with anyone wishing to carry out formal testing of Batterooooos, I wonder why?

A cynic might conclude that there is a conspiracy to prevent, or at least, delay the truth about the Batteroo's performance from becoming public; what other motivation could there be?.

He wants to be the Aussie distributor for Batteroo sleeves. Bad test reports would destroy his opportunity to resell the sleeves.

Yes, I know who "he" is but didn't want speak his name :)

Looks like early suspicions about close ties to Bob are well founded. He's now doing Q+A and tech support on IndieGoGo :popcorn:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277741;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on December 13, 2016, 03:28:38 pm

Quote from: boffin on December 13, 2016, 02:16:42 am

MATH:

If a battery lasts 1 SNAFU of time;

80% longer = 1.8 SNAFUs
800% longer = 9 SNAFUs
8x as long = 8 SNAFUs
"taps into the 80% left behind" = 5 SNAFUs

Which is it Bob ?

Nice summary, but why is this even important?  Even the least favorable one (your 1.8 SNAFUs) case is complete BS in the vast majority of cases.  Give Bob the extreme benefit of doubt and the product is still busted.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Towger on December 13, 2016, 03:32:58 pm

Quote from: madires on December 13, 2016, 03:02:09 pm

He wants to be the Aussie distributor for Batteroo sleeves. Bad test reports would destroy his opportunity to resell the sleeves.

If Ozzie law is like EU law, the local distributor is the person who carries the can if anything they import goes wrong. Whether it works or not is mute but if it gets stuck in someone overpriced Apple Keyboard or heaven forbids causes any damage...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 13, 2016, 03:48:44 pm

I'm worried that ReviveBatteries thinks we're childish.
In my mind an engineer's mind should be child-like, always questioning... challenging absolute statements.  Exactly the opposite of what corporations and politicians want us to be.

A necessary evil!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 13, 2016, 03:53:42 pm

On the upside, "he" is pointing IGG backers to this blog which is rather foolish considering his position. :palm: I'm sure Bob Rhubarb would have preferred backers to be kept in the dark for as long a possible.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 13, 2016, 04:05:59 pm

I suggest to create another thread for discussing the social engineering aspects to keep this one technology related.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on December 13, 2016, 04:06:42 pm

Quote from: Towger on December 13, 2016, 03:32:58 pm

If Ozzie law is like EU law, the local distributor is the person who carries the can if anything they import goes wrong. Whether it works or not is mute but if it gets stuck in someone overpriced Apple Keyboard or heaven forbids causes any damage...

Or if (as he has recommended on IGG), someone twists the battery/iser a few times to make it fit in a tight metal compartment.  Can't see that causing a problem at all  :scared:.  I wonder how strong that coating is ...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: free_electron on December 13, 2016, 04:47:14 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 12, 2016, 06:01:34 am

This is Batteroo's website right now:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277377;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277379;image)

That's what's being sold to people. How is that not outrageous?

am i the only one who sees aproblem with that ? the battery gauge now reads 100% .. how will i know when the battery will get so low the batpoo will cut out ? i hope it has a proportional scaled output voltage so that the gauge in my Mac can accurately show how far from empty the batpoo+battery is or else my keyboard may suddenl

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: free_electron on December 13, 2016, 04:48:24 pm

new battries inserted. let me finish my comment now

y cut out without warning ...


was what i intended to type ...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 13, 2016, 04:52:55 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 13, 2016, 12:34:42 pm

Quote from: quad on December 13, 2016, 11:20:56 am

Well, guys... they work!  ;)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277688;image)

Oh well, that settles it. Time to close this thread.

Yeah, probably like in the video: battery gauge low, put on the sleeves, battery gauge 100%, win :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 13, 2016, 05:39:41 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 13, 2016, 12:34:42 pm

Quote from: quad on December 13, 2016, 11:20:56 am

Well, guys... they work!  ;)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277688;image)

Oh well, that settles it. Time to close this thread.

Apparently we just 'trolled' poor Rickey.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277756;image)

Luckily He Who Must Not Be Named was there to apologize for our terrible behavior.

(And now we know he's still watching this thread, let's all wave and say "Hi!"...   :-DD )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 13, 2016, 07:09:30 pm

Quote from: daveake on December 13, 2016, 04:06:42 pm

Can't see that causing a problem at all  :scared:.  I wonder how strong that coating is ...

I once had some AA batteries short out with some coins in my pocket in a class.  I smelled the smoke first and looked down at my pocket (coat) and knew immediately what was going on and I got up and ran out of the room.  I always assumed they thought I had the runs (the shits)

So I can this happening again  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 13, 2016, 07:17:18 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 13, 2016, 03:53:42 pm

On the upside, "he" is pointing IGG backers to this blog which is rather foolish considering his position. :palm: I'm sure Bob Rhubarb would have preferred backers to be kept in the dark for as long a possible.

I wonder what would happen if all the posts on page #288 were altered to say something else.  :popcorn:

"Hello, IndieGoGo visitor..we're glad you could make it.

...

"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 13, 2016, 07:19:51 pm

Quote from: madires on December 13, 2016, 04:05:59 pm

I suggest to create another thread for discussing the social engineering aspects to keep this one technology related.

Huh? "Technology" hasn't been discussed here since about page 10. Bob isn't giving us much to work with!

Maybe it can be the other way around: We could start a "technology" thread when some Batteroos finally arrive in Dave's greedy hands.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CJay on December 13, 2016, 07:22:11 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 13, 2016, 07:17:18 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 13, 2016, 03:53:42 pm

On the upside, "he" is pointing IGG backers to this blog which is rather foolish considering his position. :palm: I'm sure Bob Rhubarb would have preferred backers to be kept in the dark for as long a possible.

I wonder what would happen if all the posts on page #288 were altered to say something else.

I'm thinking that pointing a mildly dissatisfied backer at these pages and 288 in particular might actually prove to be their undoing and yield a set for test far quicker than other methods.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 13, 2016, 07:34:52 pm

Quote from: CJay on December 13, 2016, 07:22:11 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 13, 2016, 07:17:18 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 13, 2016, 03:53:42 pm

On the upside, "he" is pointing IGG backers to this blog which is rather foolish considering his position. :palm: I'm sure Bob Rhubarb would have preferred backers to be kept in the dark for as long a possible.

I wonder what would happen if all the posts on page #288 were altered to say something else.

I'm thinking that pointing a mildly dissatisfied backer at these pages and 288 in particular might actually prove to be their undoing and yield a set for test far quicker than other methods.

There is someone on IGG right now offering to buy Batteroooooos from a dissatisfied recipient, presumably for testing; I can't think of any other reason why anyone would want them. :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 13, 2016, 07:35:13 pm

Quote from: CJay on December 13, 2016, 07:22:11 pm

I'm thinking that pointing a mildly dissatisfied backer at these pages and 288 in particular might actually prove to be their undoing and yield a set for test far quicker than other methods.

I wonder if those IGG comments will still be there tomorrow?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 13, 2016, 07:37:34 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 13, 2016, 07:34:52 pm

There is someone on IGG right now offering to buy Batteroooooos from a dissatisfied recipient, presumably for testing; I can't think of any other reason why anyone would want them. :-DD

How long before "revivebatteries" accuses Frits Jansen of being an EEVBLOG sympathizer?  :popcorn:  :popcorn:  :popcorn:

(ie. What time do people in Darwin wake up?)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 13, 2016, 07:41:32 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 13, 2016, 07:34:52 pm

I can't think of any other reason why anyone would want them. :-DD

I am sure someone on this forum would pay $100 for them in a heartbeat.   ie the reason $$$

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 13, 2016, 08:00:34 pm

We're really close now.  8)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on December 13, 2016, 08:12:09 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 13, 2016, 05:39:41 pm

Luckily He Who Must Not Be Named was there to apologize for our terrible behavior.

(And now we know he's still watching this thread, let's all wave and say "Hi!"...   :-DD )

Hi Mr Carr, I can't wave as one hand is on keyboard and the other is choking the chicken, but I thought I would say "Hi!" anyway, (I forget is it Mr Carr or Mr King? - Doh, I'm so terrible with names, such a tosser!)  >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 13, 2016, 08:38:27 pm

Quote from: Macbeth on December 13, 2016, 08:12:09 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 13, 2016, 05:39:41 pm

Luckily He Who Must Not Be Named was there to apologize for our terrible behavior.

(And now we know he's still watching this thread, let's all wave and say "Hi!"...   :-DD )

Hi Mr Carr, I can't wave as one hand is on keyboard and the other is choking the chicken, but I thought I would say "Hi!" anyway, (I forget is it Mr Carr or Mr King? - Doh, I'm so terrible with names, such a tosser!)  >:D

I'm pretty sure it's Kerr.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on December 13, 2016, 08:52:42 pm

Damn.  I'm too late to get a post on the infamous "Page 288". 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CJay on December 13, 2016, 09:12:39 pm

Quote from: Smokey on December 13, 2016, 08:52:42 pm

Damn.  I'm too late to get a post on the infamous "Page 288".

You can share one of mine if you like?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 13, 2016, 09:21:11 pm

Quote from: free_electron on December 13, 2016, 04:47:14 pm

am i the only one who sees aproblem with that ? the battery gauge now reads 100% .. how will i know when the battery will get so low the batpoo will cut out ? i hope it has a proportional scaled output voltage so that the gauge in my Mac can accurately show how far from empty the batpoo+battery is or else my keyboard may suddenl

No it doesn't, and it's the biggest "gotcha" with the Batteriser that not many people talk about, certainly not Batteroo. The Batteriser renders the battery gauge on every product useless.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 13, 2016, 09:26:47 pm

Quote from: Smokey on December 13, 2016, 08:52:42 pm

Damn.  I'm too late to get a post on the infamous "Page 288".

OK I will  bite.  What is Page 288 ?  Is it suppose to be a page number in this post?  I see the number of pages at 145 ?

Is it a prediction that these will become available when Page 288 comes up?

Is it possible different monitors show different pages ?

I hate to ask this  - is this some sort of religious meaning?  I am very dumb.

 |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on December 13, 2016, 09:35:30 pm

Number of Topics per page and Number of messages per page are settings in your profile. - Under Look and Layout.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 13, 2016, 09:39:38 pm

weird

fyi  I am a downer (I wonder if this is the reason ?)  (I do not remember how to become an upper)

Is there a reply that this is about?  I guess the Reply # would be the same

OR maybe I am only seeing half of the posts ?


thanks


FYI this is Reply #7235  (for me)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 13, 2016, 09:49:08 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on December 13, 2016, 09:41:13 pm

My profile settings, you are not on the same page as the rest of us.   :P

NO

I checked and the default is 25 and mine was 50.  So I changed it to 25 so I can find Page 288 but that leaves 25 messages but I will look anyway. 

thanks

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 13, 2016, 10:05:06 pm

Things are getting interesting:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277840;image)

(copied in case Batteroo delete it...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: free_electron on December 13, 2016, 10:37:18 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 13, 2016, 09:21:11 pm

Quote from: free_electron on December 13, 2016, 04:47:14 pm

am i the only one who sees aproblem with that ? the battery gauge now reads 100% .. how will i know when the battery will get so low the batpoo will cut out ? i hope it has a proportional scaled output voltage so that the gauge in my Mac can accurately show how far from empty the batpoo+battery is or else my keyboard may suddenl

No it doesn't, and it's the biggest "gotcha" with the Batteriser that not many people talk about, certainly not Batteroo. The Batteriser renders the battery gauge on every product useless.

i smell trouble.... expect lots of people complaining it cuts out 'all of a sudden' ... it showed 100% 2 minutes ago and now it is empty ....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on December 13, 2016, 10:59:36 pm

I like the way that this forum now seems to be a blog and called 'EEVBlog #751'  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 13, 2016, 11:12:52 pm

Quote from: free_electron on December 13, 2016, 10:37:18 pm

i smell trouble.... expect lots of people complaining it cuts out 'all of a sudden' ... it showed 100% 2 minutes ago and now it is empty ....

They can avoid this by saying not to use them on metered devices like they did with LED lights.  That still leaves a lot of devices that can use them.  I think there will other problems like physical placement and removal.  I can people using their fingernails on the sleeve to remove them and bending them.  I think removing them will be their downfall.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 14, 2016, 12:31:13 am

Quote from: wilfred on December 13, 2016, 11:50:59 pm

If they appear in the wild at all that is.

I'm convinced the Batteroos are in the wild. They're just in very limited numbers.

That's why I'm so excited because we're so close now! Just one contact from a backer who recognises an opportunity when he or she sees one!

If you have a Batteriser and you're reading this, get in touch with Dave at EEVBlog https://www.eevblog.com/about/contact/ (https://www.eevblog.com/about/contact/)

 Be a hero, and get $100 for your efforts  :-+

It'll be a pleasant experience, I promise! And you can remain anonymous if you wish.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 14, 2016, 12:46:49 am

another: http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu79/xsylus/Misc/batteroo-test_zpskdqi6tgf.png (http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu79/xsylus/Misc/batteroo-test_zpskdqi6tgf.png)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277855;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Don Hills on December 14, 2016, 12:47:11 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 13, 2016, 09:49:08 pm

... I can find Page 288 but that leaves 25 messages but I will look anyway.  ...

Muttley was right, you're "not on the same page" as the rest of us. The reference is to the page of posts as a whole, not any individual post. Read the posts and note the dominant theme.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 14, 2016, 12:48:27 am

I suspect that many people who receive the product will conduct just basic testing and may simply resort to using simple battery testers, I use them often just to give an indication of a batteries suitability, they don't often tell fibs. 


Battery Tester.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277857;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 14, 2016, 02:52:52 am

Quote from: free_electron on December 13, 2016, 10:37:18 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 13, 2016, 09:21:11 pm

Quote from: free_electron on December 13, 2016, 04:47:14 pm

am i the only one who sees aproblem with that ? the battery gauge now reads 100% .. how will i know when the battery will get so low the batpoo will cut out ? i hope it has a proportional scaled output voltage so that the gauge in my Mac can accurately show how far from empty the batpoo+battery is or else my keyboard may suddenl

No it doesn't, and it's the biggest "gotcha" with the Batteriser that not many people talk about, certainly not Batteroo. The Batteriser renders the battery gauge on every product useless.

i smell trouble.... expect lots of people complaining it cuts out 'all of a sudden' ... it showed 100% 2 minutes ago and now it is empty ....

Yep, people will throw it out instantly in disgust. That one fact alone is enough to sink the longevity and mass appeal of the product even if it met it's demonstrably untrue performance claims.
At the very least it should come with a warning saying it will render your battery gauge inoperative. all it needs is for someone to use it in a critical product and then they'll get their arse sued.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 14, 2016, 03:03:38 am

I love how they changed the title of their IGG campaign.
It used to be:
http://indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x/ (http://indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x/)
but now redirects to the new title:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-extend-battery-life-significantly#/ (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-extend-battery-life-significantly#/)

 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on December 14, 2016, 03:23:21 am

"There are more than eight 0.1 volt steps between 0.6 and 1.5 volts, so, in grossly simplified terms, the Batteriser can extend operational battery life somewhere around a factor of eight."

Well that's me convinced. :o

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 14, 2016, 04:01:23 am

Quote from: StillTrying on December 14, 2016, 03:23:21 am

"There are more than eight 0.1 volt steps between 0.6 and 1.5 volts, so, in grossly simplified terms, the Batteriser can extend operational battery life somewhere around a factor of eight."
Well that's me convinced. :o
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html)

Is that from back when they were saying that products typically drop out around 1.4V?

Ah, the good old days when that was in their patent
oops, it still is  :-DD
https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943 (https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943)
No less than 6 times  :palm:

I'm still convinced that at the time they did the Patent and the initial IGG they were so clueless about batteries that they really did think that measuring the open circuit voltage was the correct way to do it   :palm:

Then after a few months they changed all their website marketing to 1.3V
And then when we still called them out on that BS, they finally admitted they were measuring the open circuit battery voltage so ner ner ner ner ner.
That was like extracting teeth.

After this point their focus has been on how they can still weasle their way out of all and/or try to justify all the claims they made, and it's been one of the most technically embarrassing endeavours in recent memory, hence why everyone thinks this is great entertainment!


Now they have changed their official x8 claim to "significantly", but still claim only 20% of a battery is used in a typical product (and they add no caveats to that). And after they shipped is now this "active" and "passive" device weaselling.

I wish we had a concise list of all the changes and backpedalled in chronological order Batteroo have made of the last year and half. It's all in this thread, but it's a massive thread.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 14, 2016, 04:27:32 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 14, 2016, 02:52:52 am

Quote from: free_electron on December 13, 2016, 10:37:18 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 13, 2016, 09:21:11 pm

Quote from: free_electron on December 13, 2016, 04:47:14 pm

am i the only one who sees aproblem with that ? the battery gauge now reads 100% .. how will i know when the battery will get so low the batpoo will cut out ? i hope it has a proportional scaled output voltage so that the gauge in my Mac can accurately show how far from empty the batpoo+battery is or else my keyboard may suddenl

No it doesn't, and it's the biggest "gotcha" with the Batteriser that not many people talk about, certainly not Batteroo. The Batteriser renders the battery gauge on every product useless.

i smell trouble.... expect lots of people complaining it cuts out 'all of a sudden' ... it showed 100% 2 minutes ago and now it is empty ....

Yep, people will throw it out instantly in disgust. That one fact alone is enough to sink the longevity and mass appeal of the product even if it met it's demonstrably untrue performance claims.
At the very least it should come with a warning saying it will render your battery gauge inoperative. all it needs is for someone to use it in a critical product and then they'll get their arse sued.

Of course one major issue with 9V batteroo's when they eventually come out has been mentioned already, but it bears repeating: One main critical use of 9V batteries is smoke alarms/smoke detectors. If a typical non-EE type person puts a 9V batteroo on a battery in a smoke alarm, they will no longer be likely to get an extended period of low battery warning alerts, which has been carefully designed into all smoke alarms and the like. The battery will die without giving much - if any - warning, and houses could burn down and lives of families lost or endangered as a result. There are probably other critical items that run on AA or AAA cells also.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on December 14, 2016, 04:34:47 am

I remember learning about batteries and internal resistances, open circuit vs on-load voltage etc back in Circuit Theory II or thereabout...
What's the odds of a University not teaching about those in electronics engineering course?

I think Boob and Pranky is what we can call an "MBA Engineer"

regardless, making a chronological event view of this whole "Batteroo Saga" is kinda interesting... wonder if I have the time... hmmm

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 14, 2016, 05:34:10 am

I have to reply to this (and it was in the IGG comments)

(http://i.imgur.com/AAV3DMm.png)

What an utterly clueless comment. My very first video on Batteriser made it very clear that I (nor anyone else for that matter) thinks the Batteriser "doesn't work".
I put it here in big bold font, but will repeat it:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1077482/?topicseen#msg1077482 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1077482/?topicseen#msg1077482)

There isn't a single engineer on the planet that even remotely doubts the Batteriser will "work" as a boost converter and give you 1.5V output from a "dead" or "used" battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 14, 2016, 05:43:21 am

Maybe they don't have many AAA?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=277896;image)

They are really killing themselves on postage by posting out partial orders?

Not to mention the 9V versions they need to post out to everyone!!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 14, 2016, 05:46:50 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 13, 2016, 11:12:52 pm

They can avoid this by saying not to use them on metered devices like they did with LED lights.

Yes, but they're not saying that, are they?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 14, 2016, 05:49:34 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 14, 2016, 05:34:10 am

There isn't a single engineer on the planet that even remotely doubts the Batteriser will "work" as a boost converter and give you 1.5V output from a "dead" or "used" battery.

Quoted for extra truthy redness in the forum.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 14, 2016, 05:57:38 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 14, 2016, 05:46:50 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 13, 2016, 11:12:52 pm

They can avoid this by saying not to use them on metered devices like they did with LED lights.

Yes, but they're not saying that, are they?

I meant they will.  Also there will be a warning about not using them in tight places.   If they give enough warnings they may end up working only in butterflies, which I think has been the only successful use so far.  This is really funny.  Think of it, the only reported successful test so far has been with sex toys!  After all there is "riser" in Batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 14, 2016, 06:29:12 am

Quote from: quad on December 14, 2016, 05:43:21 am

Not to mention the 9V versions they need to post out to everyone!!

I doubt people will get those promised 9V Batterisers. They can't afford to make good on that promise.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 14, 2016, 06:32:00 am

I noticed something interesting in the JSON data for the IGG comments.

https://www.indiegogo.com/private_api/campaigns/batteroo-extend-battery-life-significantly/comments?page=1 (https://www.indiegogo.com/private_api/campaigns/batteroo-extend-battery-life-significantly/comments?page=1)

At the very bottom:

"previous":null,"next":2,"current":1,"per_page":10,"count":1071,"pages":108

It only says 1071 comments. But on the page says 1433 comments.

Where are the other 362 comments?

Or is it just some IGG system thing?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 14, 2016, 06:45:16 am

Quote from: quad on December 14, 2016, 06:32:00 am

Where are the other 362 comments?

Deleted ie in never never land

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on December 14, 2016, 06:57:38 am

Quote from: quad on December 14, 2016, 06:32:00 am

I noticed something interesting in the JSON data for the IGG comments.

https://www.indiegogo.com/private_api/campaigns/batteroo-extend-battery-life-significantly/comments?page=1 (https://www.indiegogo.com/private_api/campaigns/batteroo-extend-battery-life-significantly/comments?page=1)

At the very bottom:

"previous":null,"next":2,"current":1,"per_page":10,"count":1071,"pages":108

It only says 1071 comments. But on the page says 1433 comments.

Where are the other 362 comments?

Or is it just some IGG system thing?

25% comments disappearing...
I could've sworn there are more that disappeared... like 800% more  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 14, 2016, 07:27:47 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 14, 2016, 05:34:10 am

There isn't a single engineer on the planet that even remotely doubts the Batteriser will "work" as a boost converter and give you 1.5V output from a "dead" or "used" battery.

Well, I doubt it now, after the Indiegogo comment from one backer, that the voltage indicator on the Apple keyboard went from 39% to 87%, assuming 39% is still at a reasonable level above 1V (because otherwise the percentage would be wrong, because of the time left at this voltage), which is fine for many boosters (many can start from 0.9V and work below once running) and 100% is 1.5V or higher (because I would expect the meter to show 100% with fresh batteries). I have a Mac, so I could even use such a keyboard. Found a seller in Germany for cheap (EUR 40), well'll see.

Dave, if you have access to a Mac somewhere and if you want one, I can forward the keyboard to you for testing (I guess you will get a sleeve sooner or later). You could do a Garmin-GPS like test, but more professional, with multiple multimeters, one for the battery terminal voltage, one for the voltage after the terminal and one for the current: A servo motor which hits a key every some seconds, then measure the time until it dies. All automated by a simple Python script on a Raspberry Pi (with the help of the Raspberry Pi2/3 logging platform for Voltnuts (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/raspberry-pi23-logging-platform-for-voltnuts/)). The servo can be controlled from the Raspberry Pi as well, without any additional hardware, as I demonstrated (https://plus.google.com/u/0/+FrankBussProgrammer/posts/EsFWxnETsGo). Or maybe better, use an Arduino for controlling the servo and then use something like Processing (https://processing.org) to send commands to the servo, read the multimeters, create a nice diagram and detect the key presses. Would be a fun weekend project to program and setup.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on December 14, 2016, 08:13:30 am

I think there is an element of confirmation bias and to a lesser degree brand loyalty when it comes to some (not all) of those who "invested" in Batteriser through IGG and I put Wayne firmly in that category. In some ways he isn't a stupid man and I think he knows what the Batteriser can and can't do and what its limitations are in terms of applications. However I think he's also the kind of person who has a very hard time admitting when he's wrong or when he has been duped (after all, no one wants to be wrong or be made to look a fool).

Wayne can rant and rave, call people tossers and trolls all he likes and as someone who has studied a little human psychology in the past, I can bet that it makes him feel good having the "last word" from behind his keyboard. The users and content on this forum obviously bother him, no matter how much he tries to put on a brave face and ignore us. But as we all know, this isn't anything personal against Wayne (even though he is taking it personally), it's all about the Batteriser and Roohparvar's outrages lies claims.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 14, 2016, 08:48:53 am

Quote from: quad on December 14, 2016, 06:32:00 am

I noticed something interesting in the JSON data for the IGG comments.
It only says 1071 comments. But on the page says 1433 comments.
Where are the other 362 comments?
Or is it just some IGG system thing?

It has been well documented here (with screen captures) that Batteroo have been deleting IGG comments.
Same on Facebook (where they also ban people) and Youtube.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 14, 2016, 12:55:08 pm

362 seemed a bit high, even for Batteroo (25% of comments).

I think IGG doesn't count replies to comments as comments in the JSON total, but they count in the IGG total.

I'm drifting us a bit off topic now though, back to "hurry up and wait" for developments in the story

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 14, 2016, 03:34:00 pm

Two months have passed since the last IGG update and the start of shipping .... how time flies. They've certainly faced some obstacles along the way; I heard that shipping a Batterooooo is more challenging, at times than shipping an iPhone!

I guess all the recipients must be "enjoying" their Batterooos so much that they can't find the time to tell the rest of the world just how this "game changing" technology has improved their lives, and not to mention the "lasting positive change on our environment". It is a very dark day for "big battery".  :-DD


Nearly forgot, although it has been mentioned before, don't forget Bob's pledge from 11 months ago:

"While you are waiting for delivery of your Batterisers, I also want to inform you that our engineering team has made a great deal of progress developing a Batteriser for 9 volt batteries.   As a token of our appreciation for your support, we have decided to send every single one of our Indiegogo backers a free 9 Volt Batteriser. The expected release of the 9v Batteriser will be in 2016, and proudly, our Indiegogo supporters will be the very first to enjoy it. "

Enjoy it? Enjoy it? I didn't think it possible but these crazy guys have taken 9V battery enjoyment to another level!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on December 14, 2016, 03:35:45 pm

Quote from: Luminax on December 14, 2016, 04:34:47 am

I remember learning about batteries and internal resistances, open circuit vs on-load voltage etc back in Circuit Theory II or thereabout...
What's the odds of a University not teaching about those in electronics engineering course?

They where teaching that in my secondary school physics classes when I was about 14, which was in the mid 1970s. If one needs to wait nowadays until a 2nd level university course to learn that, then the debate about whether education has dumbed down is over.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on December 14, 2016, 03:53:41 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 14, 2016, 07:27:47 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 14, 2016, 05:34:10 am

There isn't a single engineer on the planet that even remotely doubts the Batteriser will "work" as a boost converter and give you 1.5V output from a "dead" or "used" battery.

Well, I doubt it now, after the Indiegogo comment from one backer, that the voltage indicator on the Apple keyboard went from 39% to 87%, assuming 39% is still at a reasonable level above 1V (because otherwise the percentage would be wrong, because of the time left at this voltage), which is fine for many boosters (many can start from 0.9V and work below once running) and 100% is 1.5V or higher (because I would expect the meter to show 100% with fresh batteries). I have a Mac, so I could even use such a keyboard. Found a seller in Germany for cheap (EUR 40), well'll see.

Dave, if you have access to a Mac somewhere and if you want one, I can forward the keyboard to you for testing (I guess you will get a sleeve sooner or later). You could do a Garmin-GPS like test, but more professional, with multiple multimeters, one for the battery terminal voltage, one for the voltage after the terminal and one for the current: A servo motor which hits a key every some seconds, then measure the time until it dies. All automated by a simple Python script on a Raspberry Pi (with the help of the Raspberry Pi2/3 logging platform for Voltnuts (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/raspberry-pi23-logging-platform-for-voltnuts/)). The servo can be controlled from the Raspberry Pi as well, without any additional hardware, as I demonstrated (https://plus.google.com/u/0/+FrankBussProgrammer/posts/EsFWxnETsGo). Or maybe better, use an Arduino for controlling the servo and then use something like Processing (https://processing.org) to send commands to the servo, read the multimeters, create a nice diagram and detect the key presses. Would be a fun weekend project to program and setup.

Just one comment here. Fresh batteries typically have a voltage in the 1.6-1.62 V range, not 1.5 V. I would expect the battery indicator to show 100% at 1.6 V, not at 1.5 V.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 14, 2016, 05:00:40 pm

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on December 14, 2016, 03:53:41 pm

Just one comment here. Fresh batteries typically have a voltage in the 1.6-1.62 V range

Not when they're under load inside a device.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on December 14, 2016, 05:04:01 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 14, 2016, 05:00:40 pm

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on December 14, 2016, 03:53:41 pm

Just one comment here. Fresh batteries typically have a voltage in the 1.6-1.62 V range

Not when they're under load inside a device.

Depends on the load. In this context we're talking about the Apple keyboard (20-50 mA?), it shouldn't drop that much. I'm not sure how the indicator would handle fully charged rechargeable NiMH cells, as they barely even reach 1.5 V (more like 1.45 V). Don't have much experience with alkaline/NiMH cells together with precise (0-100%) battery indicators.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on December 14, 2016, 06:23:27 pm

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on December 14, 2016, 05:04:01 pm

Depends on the load. In this context we're talking about the Apple keyboard (20-50 mA?), it shouldn't drop that much.

~200uA at idle, pulses at 3-4mA when it's transmitting after a keypress (with fresh out of the box batteries) - just measured it on the very keyboard I'm typing on. I suspect that it's got an even lower sleep mode but I'm not sitting here for 30 minutes holding the batteries in with a pair of probes to find out.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on December 14, 2016, 06:52:34 pm

Quote from: Cerebus on December 14, 2016, 06:23:27 pm

but I'm not sitting here for 30 minutes holding the batteries in with a pair of probes to find out.

You've got TWO cymbal playing monkey dolls?!!!   :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 14, 2016, 08:05:23 pm

Quote from: ez24 on December 14, 2016, 05:57:38 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 14, 2016, 05:46:50 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 13, 2016, 11:12:52 pm

They can avoid this by saying not to use them on metered devices like they did with LED lights.

Yes, but they're not saying that, are they?

I meant they will.  Also there will be a warning about not using them in tight places.   If they give enough warnings they may end up working only in butterflies, which I think has been the only successful use so far.  This is really funny.  Think of it, the only reported successful test so far has been with sex toys!  After all there is "riser" in Batteriser.

With many of those"devices" the battery compartment is rather touchy about the cell manufacturers they will take. Some will not take a Duracell, as they are just a tiny bit too long, and the pip on the end of the cell is not long enough to touch the contact in the positive side. Others are too thick to fit in there as well and have the cover close properly. Funny enough the cells that fit the best are the cheap and nasty ones, which are also the lightest ones, as they are mostly made with sawdust as filler as opposed to actual active material.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CJay on December 14, 2016, 08:15:47 pm

Quote from: SeanB on December 14, 2016, 08:05:23 pm

With many of those"devices" the battery compartment is rather touchy about the cell manufacturers they will take. Some will not take a Duracell, as they are just a tiny bit too long, and the pip on the end of the cell is not long enough to touch the contact in the positive side. Others are too thick to fit in there as well and have the cover close properly. Funny enough the cells that fit the best are the cheap and nasty ones, which are also the lightest ones, as they are mostly made with sawdust as filler as opposed to actual active material.

I've had that very experience today with a colour changing Christmas bauble, Duracells just wouldn't work in it, maybe it needed a Batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 14, 2016, 08:52:42 pm

JUST IN,
A real Butteriser has been tested in Probes the Monkey!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on December 14, 2016, 10:03:51 pm

Revivebatteries,
    The people in this forum may enjoy a good "Bob Bashing," but they are not trolls.

     Dave presented a cogent argument on why this product will not live up to Batteroo's claims. Batteroo responded by "trolling" Dave and the public with lies, bullshit, suspicious behavior, rhetoric, and anecdotes. Dave is a man of integrity, and Bob challenged that, so everyone is understandably pissed. i.e. Bob/Batteroo drew first blood.

    You have Batteroos? Give Dave a couple. He will do an honest analysis. If he's wrong, he'll shout it from the mountains, and everyone in the room, including myself, will eat some humble pie. Otherwise, you're bullshitting, just like Bob.
 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 14, 2016, 10:54:27 pm

Big news!!

Shipping ALL remaining orders by end of next week

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=278056;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 14, 2016, 11:14:31 pm

The image of the J°nªthªn backer:

(http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu79/xsylus/Misc/batteroo-test_zpskdqi6tgf.png)

Yay, it works |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on December 14, 2016, 11:31:40 pm

...and his avatar, in the post above, instills confidence.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 14, 2016, 11:32:27 pm

That must be burning Boob's Butt!
Misspelling the name of his youngest child.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on December 15, 2016, 01:54:00 am

Could someone help me out and point me to the bit where Dave offers the bounty for a batteriser?  My google-fu is weak atm

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Towger on December 15, 2016, 08:52:54 am

No one appears to have asked Bob about the 9v version he promised to send them in 2016.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 15, 2016, 09:01:19 am

Quote from: Towger on December 15, 2016, 08:52:54 am

No one appears to have asked Bob about the 9v version he promised to send them in 2016.

Because everyone died of old age.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BradC on December 15, 2016, 09:06:47 am

Quote from: Towger on December 15, 2016, 08:52:54 am

No one appears to have asked Bob about the 9v version he promised to send them in 2016.

I could never figure out how it could be made to fit. Between segregated springs or snap on style connectors, I just can't get my head around how it'd work.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 15, 2016, 09:16:45 am

There was also a mention at one point of a version being released for rechargeable batteries but that whole conversation seemed to fall flat on its face pretty quick.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 15, 2016, 09:23:52 am

The C and D sizes are out

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=278175;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 15, 2016, 09:28:18 am

Bob provided an IGG update on the 9V Batteroooo yesterday:


"We are still working on the 9 volt batteroo IC, but will keep our promise to deliver to all IGG customers when it's complete!"

Another custom IC on the way! More Batterooo "enjoy"ment to follow, do these guys never sleep? :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 15, 2016, 09:39:57 am

Quote from: quad on December 15, 2016, 09:23:52 am

The C and D sizes are out

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=278175;image)

Who uses all of these archaic primary cell types these days? I haven't owned anything that takes C or D cells in the last 20 years :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 15, 2016, 10:15:05 am

Quote from: BradC on December 15, 2016, 09:06:47 am

Quote from: Towger on December 15, 2016, 08:52:54 am

No one appears to have asked Bob about the 9v version he promised to send them in 2016.

I could never figure out how it could be made to fit. Between segregated springs or snap on style connectors, I just can't get my head around how it'd work.

Maybe they could put the new connector on the bottom of the battery and connect it at the top with clips that go in from the side. I think that would save the most space.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on December 15, 2016, 11:23:19 am

Quote from: Blocco on December 15, 2016, 09:28:18 am

Bob provided an IGG update on the 9V Batteroooo yesterday:


"We are still working on the 9 volt batteroo IC, but will keep our promise to deliver to all IGG customers when it's complete!"

Another custom IC on the way! More Batterooo "enjoy"ment to follow, don't these guys never sleep? :)

Fixed  :-DD

The implication is they always sleep on the job

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 15, 2016, 11:31:43 am

Quote from: wilfred on December 15, 2016, 11:20:54 am

Quote from: Blocco on December 15, 2016, 09:39:57 am

Who uses all of these archaic primary cell types these days? I haven't owned anything that takes C or D cells in the last 20 years :-//

I have a radio that takes C cells, and a few Maglite torches that take D cells. Radios and torches are useful things in natural disasters where recharging is impossible if the power goes out.

So they aren't obsolete quite yet.

Yeah, I've still got a 4D Maglite torch, although I've since gotten much smaller, brighter, and more efficacious torches which run on multiples of 18650's or AA's; but the good old 4D Mag is still the best torch/baton combo. (It's the perfect (defensive) weapon to carry at night in New Zealand (In relation to NZ laws about carrying weapons in public places), because if Police question you about it, it's not a weapon, it's a torch. If you get attacked, it's a weapon and a torch! But I digress...) 
If Batteroos worked on that it could be a good use for them. But 4 D cells stacked lengthwise, with a Batteroo on each cell, might make the 4 cell battery too long for the tube.

Oh, and I haven't seen anything that runs on C cells for years!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on December 15, 2016, 11:42:52 am

To add to Batteroo's woes and list of issues, the AAA version at least seems to be rather delicate ...

(http://i.imgur.com/3Uv6hai.png)

Perhaps this is why Rob said they should be handled carefully?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 15, 2016, 11:58:47 am

Quote from: wilfred on December 15, 2016, 11:20:54 am

Quote from: Blocco on December 15, 2016, 09:39:57 am

Who uses all of these archaic primary cell types these days? I haven't owned anything that takes C or D cells in the last 20 years :-//

I have a radio that takes C cells, and a few Maglite torches that take D cells. Radios and torches are useful things in natural disasters where recharging is impossible if the power goes out.

So they aren't obsolete quite yet.

I know there are plenty of old Maglites out there that people don't want to get rid of and I have a few, but, I much prefer the efficiency, brightness, run time, battery saver modes and reliability of a modern LED torch that runs on inexpensive and common 18650 lithium cells and there's no reason why I can't have a set of charged spare cells for emergencies.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on December 15, 2016, 12:15:09 pm

Quote from: quad on December 14, 2016, 10:54:27 pm

Big news!!

Shipping ALL remaining orders by end of next week

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=278056;image)

"plan to be" in one comment, "will be" in the other. Maybe he accidentally forgot to weasel-word that second one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 15, 2016, 12:30:10 pm

Quote from: daveake on December 15, 2016, 11:42:52 am

To add to Batteroo's woes and list of issues, the AAA version at least seems to be rather delicate ...

(http://i.imgur.com/3Uv6hai.png)

Perhaps this is why Rob said they should be handled carefully?

It's all futile anyway because the Sony wireless mic will have a built in DC-DC converter :palm:.

Oh well, more electronic junk bound for landfill.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 15, 2016, 12:36:56 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 15, 2016, 11:58:47 am

I know there are plenty of old Maglites out there that people don't want to get rid of and I have a few, but, I much prefer the efficiency, brightness, run time, battery saver modes and reliability of a modern LED torch that runs on inexpensive and common 18650 lithium cells and there's no reason why I can't have a set of charged spare cells for emergencies.

If you're a security guard then a 18650 torch doesn't have the same heft as a 5 (or 6) D-cell Maglite.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 15, 2016, 12:43:48 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 15, 2016, 12:30:10 pm

Quote from: daveake on December 15, 2016, 11:42:52 am

To add to Batteroo's woes and list of issues, the AAA version at least seems to be rather delicate ...
(http://i.imgur.com/3Uv6hai.png)
Perhaps this is why Rob said they should be handled carefully?

It's all futile anyway because the Sony wireless mic will have a built in DC-DC converter :palm:.

I was about the say that. And that's the point(lessness) of the Batteriser, if that Sony wireless isn't already designed to get 80-90% of the energy from that battery then I'm a monkey's uncle.
Once the true controlled runtime comparison reviews come in the numbers will be inescapable.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 15, 2016, 12:48:17 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 15, 2016, 12:30:10 pm

Quote from: daveake on December 15, 2016, 11:42:52 am

To add to Batteroo's woes and list of issues, the AAA version at least seems to be rather delicate ...

(http://i.imgur.com/3Uv6hai.png)

Perhaps this is why Rob said they should be handled carefully?

It's all futile anyway because the Sony wireless mic will have a built in DC-DC converter :palm:.

Oh well, more electronic junk bound for landfill.

Slap a batteriser in, she'll be right!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BradC on December 15, 2016, 12:51:39 pm

Quote from: samgab on December 15, 2016, 11:31:43 am

Oh, and I haven't seen anything that runs on C cells for years!

Kids toys. Lots of kids toys take C & D cells. I have a drawer full of adapters to use AA NiMh in C & D cell applications.

My kitchen bin takes D. My Refrigerant leak detector takes C. My babies automated infant rocker takes C. My doorbell takes C.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on December 15, 2016, 02:10:50 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 15, 2016, 12:43:48 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 15, 2016, 12:30:10 pm

Quote from: daveake on December 15, 2016, 11:42:52 am

To add to Batteroo's woes and list of issues, the AAA version at least seems to be rather delicate ...
(http://i.imgur.com/3Uv6hai.png)
Perhaps this is why Rob said they should be handled carefully?

It's all futile anyway because the Sony wireless mic will have a built in DC-DC converter :palm:.

I was about the say that. And that's the point(lessness) of the Batteriser, if that Sony wireless isn't already designed to get 80-90% of the energy from that battery then I'm a monkey's uncle.
Once the true controlled runtime comparison reviews come in the numbers will be inescapable.

Also, with two Batterisers, you have the possible problem I have mentioned before. If the switching frequencies of the two Batterisers are slightly different, there could be an audio frequency noise component as a result. Nothing a sensitive microphone needs more then a varying pitch audio frequency noise generator inside the microphone.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SNGLinks on December 15, 2016, 02:28:58 pm

You don't want the batteries in a radio mic to fail. I always use new ones when doing anything live.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on December 15, 2016, 05:15:45 pm

https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943 (https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943)

Their own discharge curves Fig7. shows it will reduce the life time of the cells in many devices. ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 15, 2016, 06:07:20 pm

Quote from: StillTrying on December 15, 2016, 05:15:45 pm

https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943 (https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943)

Their own discharge curves Fig7. shows it will reduce the life time of the cells in many devices. ::)

This has been discussed before. If you read the text for Fig7, it says "The amount of time it takes for the batteries to reach 1.39V, which is where a lot of electronic equipment stop operating, are listed.". And of course, as Dave demonstrated, he couldn't find any device which doesn't work at 1.39V, and as every mathematician knows, with a wrong premise you can conclude everything.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 15, 2016, 08:33:50 pm

Quote from: StillTrying on December 15, 2016, 05:15:45 pm

https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943 (https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943)
Their own discharge curves Fig7. shows it will reduce the life time of the cells in many devices. ::)

And there is that ridiculous 1.35V cutoff voltage again  :palm:

(https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/US20120121943A1/US20120121943A1-20120517-D00006.png)

Their cluelessness about batteries is right there in their patent, it's embarrassing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 15, 2016, 08:41:41 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 15, 2016, 06:07:20 pm

This has been discussed before. If you read the text for Fig7, it says "The amount of time it takes for the batteries to reach 1.39V, which is where a lot of electronic equipment stop operating, are listed.". And of course, as Dave demonstrated, he couldn't find any device which doesn't work at 1.39V, and as every mathematician knows, with a wrong premise you can conclude everything.

Then they had to justify this by explaining in their snail video that it's the current pulses and ESR dummies!
They had to find the one edge case where this a big deal, a high drain digital camera running from AA's, and bingo, they have proof that this is how products work.
Still they didn't pop the Batterisers in to see if it fixed the problem.
And still doesn't validate their measuring the battery voltage open circuit one little bit, it's the biggest most embarrassing goof in the industry and is why they are a laughing stock.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Don Hills on December 15, 2016, 09:28:01 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 15, 2016, 12:43:48 pm

...  then I'm a monkey's uncle.  ...

I see what you did there...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on December 15, 2016, 09:42:23 pm

They seem to be getting about 1500mAH out of 2500mAH cells. ???

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 15, 2016, 10:28:04 pm

Quote from: StillTrying on December 15, 2016, 09:42:23 pm

They seem to be getting about 1500mAH out of 2500mAH cells. ???

Where do you see this? Regulated output is 1.5 V at 50 mA for 30 hours: 1.5 V * 0.05 A * 30 h = 2250 mAh, so the boost converter is about 90% efficient.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on December 15, 2016, 10:38:10 pm

mAHours doesn't include volts, that would make it milliwatt hours. Which are still useful as a battery capacity measure.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 15, 2016, 11:27:46 pm

Quote from: StillTrying on December 15, 2016, 10:38:10 pm

mAHours doesn't include volts, that would make it milliwatt hours. Which are still useful as a battery capacity measure.

Right, I mixed this up, maybe because I don't like mAh, not very exact. But then the efficiency of the boost converter is lower. Without, it is is about 2500 mAh (50 mA for 50 hours), but with the boost converter only 30 hours. At 1.5 V and 50 mA output, the input current of the boost converter would be higher, but not that much, if efficiency is high.

So yes, it would be 0.05 A x 30 h = 1500 mAh. But this doesn't say much about the energy and you can't compare it, because it is at constant 1.5 V. But of course, if you have a device with constant current, which normally still works down to 1 V without the Batteriser, it would run only half the time with the Batteriser. And for devices with an integrated boost converter, the combined losses of both boost converters will result in a reduced time as well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 16, 2016, 03:02:23 am

I just found another recently uploaded video and don't recall seeing some of this particular footage before in other previously released videos. If segments of this video have been posted before I apologise and simply didn't see it, The Batteriser stuff starts at 5:00 and times to note are as follows:

5:00 Product introduction and general waffle.
5:46 The sleeves on the work bench are just that, sleeves with no incorporated electronics.
6:29 The Mac keyboard, same as above and no visual sign of componentry when placed on the battery.
6:48 Face palm moment, the sleeve appears to be connected in reverse polarity, how does that work?.

Random Youtube Video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyZw1PSyQkE&feature=youtu.be&t=300 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyZw1PSyQkE&feature=youtu.be&t=300)

People who are in to watch gadgets should probably go to the start of the video, the concept appears pretty flash but broad day light could be a problem and strangely I don't see any finger shadowing effect or obscuration, now that's very interesting.
 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 16, 2016, 05:18:12 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 15, 2016, 08:41:41 pm

Then they had to justify this by explaining in their snail video that it's the current pulses and ESR dummies!
They had to find the one edge case where this a big deal, a high drain digital camera running from AA's, and bingo, they have proof that this is how products work.
Still they didn't pop the Batterisers in to see if it fixed the problem.

Their original batteriser could only supply 500ma, this isn't even enough to charge the flash capacitor in a digital camera, so it would have simply shut down, even with brand new batteries.

As for their "new" design, with their custom IC.... no one has measured how much current it can actually do, have they?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on December 16, 2016, 06:40:20 am

No one has "Measured" anything, not even He who cannot passWhom Shall Not Be Named...

I wonder what's the update on that one guy who offered to buy the thing on IGG?

could be "sympathizer"  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 16, 2016, 10:37:10 am

The musings of a fool..... Just about every assertion in the Batteroo patent is wrong....

[0035]
If one looks at the potential return of such a device in terms of lifetime of a battery, one can see significant benefits. For instance, the AA battery in the above example would use roughly the equivalent charge of the battery output in the range of 1.5V to 1.4V. This means that after 0.1V drop, the battery's life is over. If the battery could be used until its voltage reaches 0.8V, then after 0.7V drop the battery's life is over. If one were to assume that the time versus the voltage drop is a linear function, then the life of the battery could be improved by a factor of 7 in this example. However, advantageously the time versus voltage drop is not quite linear. The time it takes for the battery voltage to drop by 0.1V is longer at lower voltages versus at higher voltages. That means that if a constant current was drawn from the battery, it would take the battery a lot longer to discharge from 1.2V to 1.1V than it would from 1.5V to 1.4V. This means that the extent to which the battery life is increased could be even higher than the factor of 7 in the above example above.
[0036]
It is noted that the regulation circuit has a certain efficiency which cuts back on the extent to which the battery life is extended though the life time reduction is rather minimal. During operation, the regulator itself uses a certain amount of current from the battery. A lot of the available DC to DC converters have high efficiencies of around 95%. That is, of power supplied by the battery, 5% is used by the converter and the rest is available for the end user. However, the 5% efficiency loss due to use of a converter, when compared to the 700% gain in efficiency of the battery, is negligible. It is further noted, that the converter efficiency may drop as the battery voltage drops due to use. For example, as the battery voltage drops from 1.5V to 1V, the efficiency of the converter may drop down to 50% to 60%. However, 50% efficiency is still a significant improvement over the current approach of discarding the batteries because their voltage has dropped below the operable voltage range (i.e., 1.4-1.5V).


It's funny how they dismiss testing a device's cut-off voltage using a power-supply because it does not include a battery's internal resistance and yet they completely ignore this resistance in their own performance claims for the Batterooo.  |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Spuddevans on December 16, 2016, 11:01:59 am

I don't know if this has been covered before in this thread, but my question is, what is the power consumption of this batterooo when idle, ie when the battery powered device is not drawing current? Does it in some way detect when the battery powered device is "off" and go into some "sleep mode"?

If it does not have such a feature, then surely it's quite likely that, especially with low-current draw devices, that rather than providing added "life" to the device, it will actually reduce it's "life"?

Can't wait for the "Tear-down" video on these!!

Tim

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CJay on December 16, 2016, 11:31:16 am

Quote from: Spuddevans on December 16, 2016, 11:01:59 am

I don't know if this has been covered before in this thread, but my question is, what is the power consumption of this batterooo when idle, ie when the battery powered device is not drawing current? Does it in some way detect when the battery powered device is "off" and go into some "sleep mode"?

If it does not have such a feature, then surely it's quite likely that, especially with low-current draw devices, that rather than providing added "life" to the device, it will actually reduce it's "life"?

Can't wait for the "Tear-down" video on these!!

Tim

Dunno, seems that whenever they've been shown unloaded 'in operation' there's a multimeter indicating 1.5V so either the load of the meter (roughly 150 nano amps?) is sufficient to trip the boost converter into action or it's running continually, it's already been stated that it's possible to build boost converters with off load current draw in the microamps which wouldn't have any significant effect on battery life.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 16, 2016, 11:56:34 am

Quote from: Spuddevans on December 16, 2016, 11:01:59 am

I don't know if this has been covered before in this thread

Yes, it has, but we have more evidence now. One of the people who received one posted a picture using a multimeter to show Batteriser voltage.

Most multimeters have an impedance of about 10MOhms so that's less than a microamp of load. Batteriser is still boosting.

It also works in remote controls it works in Apple keyboards. Both of those will use microamps.

Quote from: Spuddevans on December 16, 2016, 11:01:59 am

If it does not have such a feature, then surely it's quite likely that, especially with low-current draw devices, that rather than providing added "life" to the device, it will actually reduce it's "life"?

Yep.

That's one of the problems with trying to make a booster that works everywhere.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on December 16, 2016, 01:20:53 pm

They will have picked a converter that is running all the time, but when there is no load, the converter only has to switch just enough to cover the leakage. Below a certain current, the converters can switch to a variable frequency mode, so at no load, the switching frequency may something like once a minute. The converter chip itself will have a quiescent operating current as well. The total no-load current could be anything from 1uA to 1mA. 

We will not know till someone tests the no-load current for the range of possible battery voltages since it could change with the input voltage. Could also change with temperature.

It is one of the important specifications for a number of applications. If the Batteriser is used in an emergency torch, you do not want to find the batteries have been flattened when you have the emergency. Batteries in TV remotes often last well over a year. No-load current from the Batteriser could be enough to shorten the battery life significantly if it is used in a remote.

If the no-load current was as low as 5uA, then for most applications the no-load current would have little effect on battery life. At around 1mA no-load current, batteries would be dead in a few months.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 16, 2016, 01:45:50 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 16, 2016, 10:37:10 am

The musings of a fool..... Just about every assertion in the Batteroo patent is wrong....
[0035]
If one looks at the potential return of such a device in terms of lifetime of a battery, one can see significant benefits. For instance, the AA battery in the above example would use roughly the equivalent charge of the battery output in the range of 1.5V to 1.4V. This means that after 0.1V drop, the battery's life is over. If the battery could be used until its voltage reaches 0.8V, then after 0.7V drop the battery's life is over.

To have that in your patent application is embarrassing enough if you are just some hack "inventor" with little knowledge of batteries or electronic product design. But to be two major players in the electronics industry, CEO of tech companies in the power/charger industry no less, PhD's, university professor, hundreds of patents to your name, etc etc as they boast, it's beyond embarrassing  :palm:

The problem with the patent for them is that it's there forever now, they can't take it back, they can't change it like they do their website, and it shows exactly what they based their entire product and business model on.
Everything after the patent is them trying to scramble to save face with their idea and claims.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: razvanme on December 16, 2016, 01:48:55 pm

Hello everyone,

I just got my Christmas present, and I thought I have to share it with you.

I finally received my order 8 - AAA sleeve's, the plan is this
- One I will keep for my amusement
- 3 are destined to reach Dave
And I have 4 more that I can send to anyone interested. I will send two sets of two. If you are interested send me a message.

Funny thing is they even sent one that has a defect.

(https://s30.postimg.org/8ovjparhp/20161216_151229.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/8ovjparhp/)  (https://s27.postimg.org/hgbsy44gv/Chip_view.png) (https://postimg.org/image/hgbsy44gv/)  (https://s30.postimg.org/4ts5mq8bx/20161216_153254.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/4ts5mq8bx/)
Regards.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on December 16, 2016, 01:57:46 pm

Top first post :-)

Can't wait for Dave's report.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 16, 2016, 01:58:51 pm

Quote from: razvanme on December 16, 2016, 01:48:55 pm

Hello everyone,
I just got my Christmas present, and I thought I have to share it with you.
I finally received my order 8 - AAA sleeve's, the plan is this
- One I will keep for my amusement
- 3 are destined to reach Dave

Thanks!
I can organise pre-paid DHL express courier if you like?
Email me: dave@eevblog.com

Shame you only got the AAA version though, that limits product testing a fair bit, but should have the same converter and performance curve as the AA?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 16, 2016, 02:00:43 pm

Our first look at the infamous chip!
(http://i.imgur.com/oKDtOhT.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on December 16, 2016, 02:02:41 pm

Get a sleeve to someone who can decap the IC and take high res microscope pictures!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 16, 2016, 02:08:47 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 16, 2016, 01:45:50 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 16, 2016, 10:37:10 am

The musings of a fool..... Just about every assertion in the Batteroo patent is wrong....
[0035]
If one looks at the potential return of such a device in terms of lifetime of a battery, one can see significant benefits. For instance, the AA battery in the above example would use roughly the equivalent charge of the battery output in the range of 1.5V to 1.4V. This means that after 0.1V drop, the battery's life is over. If the battery could be used until its voltage reaches 0.8V, then after 0.7V drop the battery's life is over.

To have that in your patent application is embarrassing enough if you are just some hack "inventor" with little knowledge of batteries or electronic product design. But to be two major players in the electronics industry, CEO of tech companies in the power/charger industry no less, PhD's, university professor, hundreds of patents to your name, etc etc as they boast, it's beyond embarrassing  :palm:

The problem with the patent for them is that it's there forever now, they can't take it back, they can't change it like they do their website, and it shows exactly what they based their entire product and business model on.
Everything after the patent is them trying to scramble to save face with their idea and claims.

Absolutely, they have stacked fallacy upon fallacy and concluded nonsense; any first year engineering student could have spotted the faulty reasoning here. No wonder Frankie has filed so many patents if this is representative of the quality of his work.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 16, 2016, 02:16:05 pm

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on December 16, 2016, 02:02:41 pm

Get a sleeve to someone who can decap the IC and take high res microscope pictures!

Yep, I second this.
http://zeptobars.com/en/ (http://zeptobars.com/en/) would be a good choice. I have the contact there if needed, although I'm sure the info email works.
They are EEVblog viewers and have visited the forum before, and they likely know about the Batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: razvanme on December 16, 2016, 02:31:07 pm

I have no attachments to the sleeves, so you decide what I should do with them. Except the ones that reach Dave, I have 4 more to send, so you decide. I've just sent them an email.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 16, 2016, 02:37:02 pm

Quote from: razvanme on December 16, 2016, 01:48:55 pm

I just got my Christmas present, and I thought I have to share it with you.

 :-+

Out of interest, where was it posted from? Can you see postage costs on the label?

I'm sure people here will want as much detail as possible of the packaging, etc., as well as the sleeve.

Maybe it's time to start a separate "Batteroo testing" thread.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: razvanme on December 16, 2016, 02:42:55 pm

Here you go

(https://s27.postimg.org/5qa5e53cv/shipping.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5qa5e53cv/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on December 16, 2016, 02:49:27 pm

Quote from: razvanme on December 16, 2016, 02:42:55 pm

Here you go

Sweden? Did they end up with the same drop-shipping company as Dave?  :-DD

edit: tracking link http://www.postnord.se/en/tools/track/Pages/track-and-trace.aspx?search=RE516481241SE (http://www.postnord.se/en/tools/track/Pages/track-and-trace.aspx?search=RE516481241SE)

So they posted it Nov 16, and left the US on Nov 21, and then didn't arrive at the destination until now, a month later

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on December 16, 2016, 03:03:23 pm

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on December 16, 2016, 03:02:23 am

Random Youtube Video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyZw1PSyQkE&feature=youtu.be&t=300 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyZw1PSyQkE&feature=youtu.be&t=300)

People who are in to watch gadgets should probably go to the start of the video, the concept appears pretty flash but broad day light could be a problem and strangely I don't see any finger shadowing effect or obscuration, now that's very interesting.

Considering the creator of that video actually rated the Batteriser better than the Cicret Bracelet in their top 5 countdown, I think we can pretty much assume it's a load of bunk.   :bullshit:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ysjoelfir on December 16, 2016, 03:28:15 pm

Quote from: razvanme on December 16, 2016, 02:42:55 pm

Here you go

(https://s27.postimg.org/5qa5e53cv/shipping.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5qa5e53cv/)

Oh, did anyone also notice the false declaration? They send it as a "gift", which is, at least here in germany, a big problem if it actually isn't a gift and instead a paid article. Since they were paid, customs could potentially get a bit angry about this?
Edit: I read it wrong, as mentioned, the X is not for gifts. So, nothing wrong here, my apologies.  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on December 16, 2016, 03:31:30 pm

Quote from: Ysjoelfir on December 16, 2016, 03:28:15 pm

Quote from: razvanme on December 16, 2016, 02:42:55 pm

Here you go

(https://s27.postimg.org/5qa5e53cv/shipping.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5qa5e53cv/)

Oh, did anyone also notice the false declaration? They send it as a "gift", which is, at least here in germany, a big problem if it actually isn't a gift and instead a paid article. Since they were paid, customs could potentially get a bit angry about this?

I actually would consider Kickstarter "awards" gifts, and not commercial items. But many will and do disagree on this. I guess you have to look up the law in your country and see if their definition covers it or not.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: razvanme on December 16, 2016, 03:38:45 pm

Same in Romania as in Germany. They would get "so angry" that they will make you pay the tax for importing that. And that happens in general.
I was amazed they did not tax me for this. That is because it came through Sweden and that is part of EU.

However it is actually a "Commercial Sample". Look at the Table (First column is for Gift / Documents).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 16, 2016, 03:47:50 pm

Quote from: razvanme on December 16, 2016, 02:31:07 pm

I have no attachments to the sleeves, so you decide what I should do with them. Except the ones that reach Dave, I have 4 more to send, so you decide. I've just sent them an email.

First I thought would be good to send them all to Dave, but might be better to have independent tests as well. I'll take a pack of 2, will do characteristics curves with it. From Romania to Germany shouldn't take to long. PM sent.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: razvanme on December 16, 2016, 03:52:21 pm

Will send them as soon as possible.
Don't want anything for them  ;)
Just tell us the results when you get them.

PS.

I have sent an email to zeptobars for decaping, so depending on the answer I will give them two samples. So the count is 4 to Dave and 2 to FrankBuss. Possibly 2 to for decaping. 8 in total. I know a lot of you want to test them, however I only have 8 :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Twoflower on December 16, 2016, 04:00:48 pm

Quote from: Ysjoelfir on December 16, 2016, 03:28:15 pm

Oh, did anyone also notice the false declaration? They send it as a "gift", which is, at least here in germany, a big problem if it actually isn't a gift and instead a paid article. Since they were paid, customs could potentially get a bit angry about this?

No, you read the document wrong: The x arks it as Commercial Sample. To mark it as Gift the mark would be on the left side of the field "Gift". Or where would you put the mark for Commercial Sample?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on December 16, 2016, 04:03:55 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 16, 2016, 02:16:05 pm

http://zeptobars.com/en/ (http://zeptobars.com/en/) would be a good choice.

Oh My God, that site is pure silicon porn!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 16, 2016, 04:33:36 pm

Quote from: razvanme on December 16, 2016, 03:52:21 pm

I have sent an email to zeptobars for decaping, so depending on the answer I will give them two samples. So the count is 4 to Dave and 2 to FrankBuss. Possibly 2 to for decaping. 8 in total. I know a lot of you want to test them, however I only have 8 :)

Thanks. I can forward them to anybody who wants them after my tests.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 6581 on December 16, 2016, 05:47:17 pm

Nicely done razvanme. Thank you! :-) I know I'm not alone - we're all pretty excited to see the test results. (Even though it's a bit like watching a Titanic.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 16, 2016, 06:11:24 pm

Electronupdate can decap them, and probably will do a nice video about it as well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on December 16, 2016, 06:16:33 pm

I'm secretly hoping for a copyright mark from TI or something engraved on the die  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ysjoelfir on December 16, 2016, 06:16:53 pm

Quote

No, you read the document wrong: The x arks it as Commercial Sample. To mark it as Gift the mark would be on the left side of the field "Gift". Or where would you put the mark for Commercial Sample?

you are indeed correct with that - so, nothing wrong with the document  :-+

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 16, 2016, 04:33:36 pm

Thanks. I can forward them to anybody who wants them after my tests.

Would be highly interested in one, but since I don't have that fancy lab equipment, I would let other people have it if there is someone interested... But I would like to have them "some time in the future" to take a look at that mystery device everyone goes apeshit about.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 16, 2016, 06:18:16 pm

Notice the manufacture date on the chip? "1629"
29th week of 2016 presumably? (Mid-July this year.)
Interesting.
(http://i.imgur.com/Zy9p1EN.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 16, 2016, 06:38:32 pm

PS: Thanks RAZVANME for posting the pics and info you have thus far. Would you maybe consider also doing a brief youtube video taking a look at the physical construction and your initial impressions? That'd be cool and I think it would get a lot of views. Doesn't have to be high production value or in-depth, just a few thoughts and impressions... Cheers!  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on December 16, 2016, 06:47:22 pm

One sample to the user with the GPS unit. :D

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on December 16, 2016, 07:15:14 pm

Didn't the GPS take AA?

These are still stamped with the original product name.  Interesting.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 16, 2016, 09:14:28 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 16, 2016, 02:37:02 pm

Maybe it's time to start a separate "Batteroo testing" thread.

Possibly, who thinks a dedicated thread strictly just for testing is a good idea?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 16, 2016, 09:18:46 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 16, 2016, 04:33:36 pm

Quote from: razvanme on December 16, 2016, 03:52:21 pm

I have sent an email to zeptobars for decaping, so depending on the answer I will give them two samples. So the count is 4 to Dave and 2 to FrankBuss. Possibly 2 to for decaping. 8 in total. I know a lot of you want to test them, however I only have 8 :)

Thanks. I can forward them to anybody who wants them after my tests.

Bare in mind that proper testing will likely require soldering wires onto the pads (4 wires, two for sense), otherwise it's pretty fiddly.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 16, 2016, 09:21:16 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 16, 2016, 09:14:28 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 16, 2016, 02:37:02 pm

Maybe it's time to start a separate "Batteroo testing" thread.

Possibly, who thinks a dedicated thread strictly just for testing is a good idea?

No question about it and no funny business, this is serious stuff.   ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 16, 2016, 09:23:52 pm

Quote from: kalleboo on December 16, 2016, 02:49:27 pm

Quote from: razvanme on December 16, 2016, 02:42:55 pm

Here you go
(https://s27.postimg.org/c3z8he88z/shipping.jpg)

Sweden? Did they end up with the same drop-shipping company as Dave?  :-DD
edit: tracking link http://www.postnord.se/en/tools/track/Pages/track-and-trace.aspx?search=RE516481241SE (http://www.postnord.se/en/tools/track/Pages/track-and-trace.aspx?search=RE516481241SE)
So they posted it Nov 16, and left the US on Nov 21, and then didn't arrive at the destination until now, a month later

Yep, sounds like the shipping company (DirectLink) that was used for my uRuler:
https://www.eevblog.com/2013/12/31/traps-for-even-simple-successful-crowd-funded-projects/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2013/12/31/traps-for-even-simple-successful-crowd-funded-projects/)

That actually explains the haphazard nature of the shipping.
Still does not explain why the early backers did not get their units first.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 16, 2016, 10:29:27 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 16, 2016, 09:18:46 pm

Bare in mind that proper testing will likely require soldering wires onto the pads (4 wires, two for sense), otherwise it's pretty fiddly.

I thought about using thin metal stripes: two between the battery plus terminal and the Betteriser, with isolation between, so that I can measure the current into the Batteriser and the battery voltage. For the output voltage and current I can just plug it in a battery holder and solder wires to the battery holder. But right, might be fiddly this way and the stripes might not make contact to the pads. I'm not good with mechanics anyway, so soldering wires to the Batterieser would be easier. If it is normal PCB (maybe even gold plated), would be no problem. Soldering to the negative terminal could be a problem, stainless steel doesn't like this, but some windings of bare wire and pressing it against the contact with a paper clip and electrical tape should do it for this side.

Don't know if it is necessary to use 4 wires, I was planning to do some tests with 100 mA and 10 mA, but might be a good idea to check the limits, too, because as we know, the webpage says it can handle all the current a battery can deliver :bullshit: Problem with this is, Batteroo will say this is not a proper test, because the battery would provide a lot of cooling, and this might be less efficient with soldered wires between the battery positive terminal and the pad, if it creates a gap, but we'll see.

But might be good anyway to test it without a battery with a power supply. I just found out how to control my SPD3303D power supply over USB from a Python script from my Linux system (it uses the USBTMC protocol, which a lot of instruments and power supplies use, e.g. some Keysight gear, too). So I can create a lot of characteristics curves automatically with a script for different input voltages and loads, without having to wait until a battery discharges.

A problem is that I have only one high quality 4 3/4 digits benchtop multimeter, which I can read over RS232. But I have an ADG608 8x1 mux in my parts bin, which I can power with +/-5V to prevent non-linear behaviour at low voltages, and I have a uCurrent Gold, which is perfect with the low burden voltage to measure the current into the Batteriser. Too bad I sold my old uCurrent, but the output current is no problem to measure with something like an 1 ohm and 0.1 ohm shunt. I guess the ADG608 has no problems switching millivolts?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on December 16, 2016, 11:10:32 pm

Perhaps you could make the connections for testing using a dummy battery somehow.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AAA-Placeholder-Dummy-Battery-Batteries-Shell-for-Digital-Camera-UK-Ship-/162175228364 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AAA-Placeholder-Dummy-Battery-Batteries-Shell-for-Digital-Camera-UK-Ship-/162175228364)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on December 16, 2016, 11:34:05 pm

Initial tests should probably be done without any soldering or tampering with the Batteriser, else Batteroo will just claim that heat transfer, or whatever, changed its characteristics and the test thereby is invalid.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Someone on December 16, 2016, 11:36:08 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 16, 2016, 10:29:27 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 16, 2016, 09:18:46 pm

Bare in mind that proper testing will likely require soldering wires onto the pads (4 wires, two for sense), otherwise it's pretty fiddly.

I thought about using thin metal stripes: two between the battery plus terminal and the Betteriser, with isolation between, so that I can measure the current into the Batteriser and the battery voltage. For the output voltage and current I can just plug it in a battery holder and solder wires to the battery holder. But right, might be fiddly this way and the stripes might not make contact to the pads. I'm not good with mechanics anyway, so soldering wires to the Batterieser would be easier. If it is normal PCB (maybe even gold plated), would be no problem. Soldering to the negative terminal could be a problem, stainless steel doesn't like this, but some windings of bare wire and pressing it against the contact with a paper clip and electrical tape should do it for this side.

It works well:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/petzl-myo-rxp-power-consumption-and-battery-box/msg493944/#msg493944 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/petzl-myo-rxp-power-consumption-and-battery-box/msg493944/#msg493944)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34971.0;attach=105039;image)
I've got a multichannel SMU which can automate measuring all the performance sweeps if anyone wants to send a sleeve over (not sure dave still has these around the lab?).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on December 17, 2016, 12:12:16 am

OMG!  ITS HAPPENING!

Many thanks to our Romanian friend for not only splashing out on these, but sending them out to the experts here for a proper engineering analysis.

I really look forward to the results and videos to come soon!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 12:22:49 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 16, 2016, 10:29:27 pm

A problem is that I have only one high quality 4 3/4 digits benchtop multimeter, which I can read over RS232. But I have an ADG608 8x1 mux in my parts bin, which I can power with +/-5V to prevent non-linear behaviour at low voltages, and I have a uCurrent Gold, which is perfect with the low burden voltage to measure the current into the Batteriser. Too bad I sold my old uCurrent, but the output current is no problem to measure with something like an 1 ohm and 0.1 ohm shunt. I guess the ADG608 has no problems switching millivolts?

No need for a uCurrent, as that's what the sense wire is for voltmeter directly on input and output terminals takes into account and input and output shunt resistance and any load lead wire resistance.
I couldn't be bothered automating this, so will just set up 4 meters and take a few dozen points at each load current. Maybe include a temp probe too, but as you say, the battery will provide some thermal sink. But hey, the batteriser will be inside a sealed battery compartment, so maybe fair compensation.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 12:26:41 am

Quote from: Someone on December 16, 2016, 11:36:08 pm

've got a multichannel SMU which can automate measuring all the performance sweeps if anyone wants to send a sleeve over (not sure dave still has these around the lab?).

I only have a Keithley 2400 SMU, single channel job.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 17, 2016, 12:46:02 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 16, 2016, 09:14:28 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 16, 2016, 02:37:02 pm

Maybe it's time to start a separate "Batteroo testing" thread.

Possibly, who thinks a dedicated thread strictly just for testing is a good idea?

Good idea, I just started one:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1092959/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1092959/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 17, 2016, 12:56:57 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 12:22:49 am

No need for a uCurrent, as that's what the sense wire is for voltmeter directly on input and output terminals takes into account and input and output shunt resistance and any load lead wire resistance.

I have only one 4 3/4 digit voltmeter, so the input shunt has to be high enough to measure a voltage difference. Should be possible with an additional instrument and just measuring the difference, but I plan to measure it all referenced to ground, this would be a problem. And making the input shunt higher would require to adjust the input voltage incrementally to get to the desired input voltage. But not a problem, I already have your uCurrent here. But we can discuss this in the new thread. Using 4 multimeters, all with isolated inputs relative to ground, would be of course the easiest way.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheSteve on December 17, 2016, 02:07:31 am

I can't wait for probes the Monkey to make his return!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 02:09:31 am

Quote from: TheSteve on December 17, 2016, 02:07:31 am

I can't wait for probes the Monkey to make his return!

He will need a sound proof test box!
I have an old Garmin AAA GPS watch somewhere, will have to dig it out.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: trophosphere on December 17, 2016, 02:31:05 am

You should record probes the monkey with a digital clock and create a time-lapse video with the key part (slowing down and dying) showcased in normal speed. His battery and the Batteriser can also be hooked up to multi-meters.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 02:38:14 am

Quote from: trophosphere on December 17, 2016, 02:31:05 am

You should record probes the monkey with a digital clock and create a time-lapse video with the key part (slowing down and dying) showcased in normal speed. His battery and the Batteriser can also be hooked up to multi-meters.

I plan to time-lapse all product tests with a clock in the frame.
No need to measure voltages. We only need data on product run times.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 17, 2016, 02:59:51 am

Yeah, there's a lot to be said for the "K.I.S.S" philosophy. No need for all these ridiculous complex circuits to test if a device that is meant to extend battery life actually extends battery life.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 17, 2016, 03:06:49 am

New "Batteroo Boost" promo video on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9hT4cAOr9g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9hT4cAOr9g)

The  :palm: :palm: :palm: factor is high with this one.
Same old regurgitated marketing spiel about how the device renders useFUL battery gauges useLESS.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 03:19:33 am

Quote from: samgab on December 17, 2016, 03:06:49 am

New "Batteroo Boost" promo video on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9hT4cAOr9g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9hT4cAOr9g)
The  :palm: :palm: :palm: factor is high with this one.

No kidding.
Very deceptive in what is doesn't tell you, namely:
a) How much time would the used batteries have had left?
b) How much time extension do you actually get with the Batteriser?
c) How much extra time (if any) would you get if you installed the Batteriser when the batteries were fresh?
d) The major fact that battery gauge is now rendered useless

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 17, 2016, 03:30:50 am

Quote from: samgab on December 17, 2016, 03:06:49 am

New "Batteroo Boost" promo video on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9hT4cAOr9g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9hT4cAOr9g)

She sounds like she is from West Australia, I would say around Darwin

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on December 17, 2016, 04:08:56 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 03:19:33 am

No kidding.
Very deceptive in what is doesn't tell you, namely:
a) How much time would the used batteries have had left?
b) How much time extension do you actually get with the Batteriser?
c) How much extra time (if any) would you get if you installed the Batteriser when the batteries were fresh?
d) The major fact that battery gauge is now rendered useless

e) How pointless the whole exercise is as the Apple Wireless Keyboard lasts forever on a pair of batteries anyway. (I get around 9 months to a set of batteries with the keyboard left turned on 24x7.)
f) I checked a set of batteries immediately after they came out of an Apple Wireless Trackpad as 'dead' (the Trackpad actually turned off in use after weeks of low battery warning) a couple of weeks back. They had an off load, open circuit voltage of around 0.85V. It just happened that as they went dead I was playing around withcharacterizing an LT2400 ADC and an AD586 reference on a breadboard not three feet away so I hooked one up to amuse myself by watching the open circuit voltage creep up microvolt by microvolt as they recovered.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on December 17, 2016, 04:10:39 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 17, 2016, 03:30:50 am

She sounds like she is from West Australia, I would say around Darwin

Why do you think that? Could you perhaps have heard something buzzing in the background audio?  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 17, 2016, 05:33:34 am

Quote from: Cerebus on December 17, 2016, 04:10:39 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 17, 2016, 03:30:50 am

She sounds like she is from West Australia, I would say around Darwin

Why do you think that? Could you perhaps have heard something buzzing in the background audio?  :)

Her accent is not Californian

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on December 17, 2016, 05:39:20 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 17, 2016, 03:30:50 am

Quote from: samgab on December 17, 2016, 03:06:49 am

New "Batteroo Boost" promo video on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9hT4cAOr9g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9hT4cAOr9g)

She sounds like she is from West Australia, I would say around Darwin

Sounds like a western Sydney twang to me.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Someone on December 17, 2016, 05:58:56 am

Quote from: djos on December 17, 2016, 05:39:20 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 17, 2016, 03:30:50 am

Quote from: samgab on December 17, 2016, 03:06:49 am

New "Batteroo Boost" promo video on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9hT4cAOr9g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9hT4cAOr9g)

She sounds like she is from West Australia, I would say around Darwin

Sounds like a western Sydney twang to me.

Well, Darwin is part of the Northern Territory rather than Western Australia, and while west of the "middle" of Australia its more central than east/west.

Anyway the accent is NSW, of a typical north coast type.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 06:05:56 am

Quote from: Cerebus on December 17, 2016, 04:08:56 am

e) How pointless the whole exercise is as the Apple Wireless Keyboard lasts forever on a pair of batteries anyway. (I get around 9 months to a set of batteries with the keyboard left turned on 24x7.)
f) I checked a set of batteries immediately after they came out of an Apple Wireless Trackpad as 'dead' (the Trackpad actually turned off in use after weeks of low battery warning) a couple of weeks back. They had an off load, open circuit voltage of around 0.85V. It just happened that as they went dead I was playing around withcharacterizing an LT2400 ADC and an AD586 reference on a breadboard not three feet away so I hooked one up to amuse myself by watching the open circuit voltage creep up microvolt by microvolt as they recovered.

Yep, someone on here measured the dropout voltage of an Apple keyboard, and it was sub 1V per cell IIRC, so it's already very well designed to extract the maximum juice form the battery
It is the most useless example possible really. And they can't claim it's the ESR and current pulses etc in an apple keyboard. They have absolutely no leg to stand on.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: 6581 on December 17, 2016, 06:14:17 am

On my Apple wireless keyboard model A1314 when the system reports 11% battery charge, I leave the rechargeable NiMHs in because I know I'll get another 2-4 weeks of heavy daily use without any hiccups. Same goes for the Magic Trackpad.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 06:20:01 am

Quote from: Someone on December 17, 2016, 05:58:56 am

Anyway the accent is NSW, of a typical north coast type.

Probably found her on Fiverr, just like the twins:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP2kuEzySP8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP2kuEzySP8)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 17, 2016, 06:29:57 am

Oh man, all of those Fiverr "characters" are so cringeworthy it's painful. The "Ozzy bush guy" is the worst though.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on December 17, 2016, 06:33:44 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 02:38:14 am

Quote from: trophosphere on December 17, 2016, 02:31:05 am

You should record probes the monkey with a digital clock and create a time-lapse video with the key part (slowing down and dying) showcased in normal speed. His battery and the Batteriser can also be hooked up to multi-meters.

I plan to time-lapse all product tests with a clock in the frame.
No need to measure voltages. We only need data on product run times.

Can it be a GPS clock just for shits and giggles? At least Bob, Wayne and Co. can't claim that the clock is running slow/fast/is tampered with/runs on a Batteriser etc...

I like the "suggested videos" at the end of the 'twins' clip though... very accurate!  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: IanB on December 17, 2016, 06:56:00 am

Quote from: Blocco on December 16, 2016, 10:37:10 am

The musings of a fool..... Just about every assertion in the Batteroo patent is wrong....

Quote from: EEVblog on December 16, 2016, 01:45:50 pm

To have that in your patent application is embarrassing enough if you are just some hack "inventor" with little knowledge of batteries or electronic product design. But to be two major players in the electronics industry, CEO of tech companies in the power/charger industry no less, PhD's, university professor, hundreds of patents to your name, etc etc as they boast, it's beyond embarrassing  :palm:

The problem with the patent for them is that it's there forever now, they can't take it back, they can't change it like they do their website, and it shows exactly what they based their entire product and business model on.
Everything after the patent is them trying to scramble to save face with their idea and claims.

I think it is not embarrassing at all (for them). It has oft been noted that we live in a "post fact society".

There is no need for anything in a patent to be technically accurate, nor any need for the claimed invention to actually work.

If the purpose of the whole endeavor is to get a financial result, then all that is required is that the patent exists, and that it contains sufficiently smooth technobabble for non-technical investors to find it believable (which in a post fact society is not a high hurdle to jump over).

We must not view the claims as intending to have any technical merit at all; merely as artifacts in a plan to make money. As such, the people behind the plan are presumably quite happy with their work. They have generated a lot of publicity and have a lot of people talking about them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 07:21:44 am

Quote from: IanB on December 17, 2016, 06:56:00 am

I think it is not embarrassing at all (for them). It has oft been noted that we live in a "post fact society".

Which I'm trying to change...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on December 17, 2016, 08:39:16 am

Quote from: Halcyon on December 17, 2016, 06:33:44 am

I like the "suggested videos" at the end of the 'twins' clip though... very accurate!  :-+

Seeing Big Clive's LEDs in there I'm assuming it's tuned to your own viewing habits, so I tried it in a private browsing window... It's even better there!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 17, 2016, 08:58:49 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 06:20:01 am

Quote from: Someone on December 17, 2016, 05:58:56 am

Anyway the accent is NSW, of a typical north coast type.

Probably found her on Fiverr, just like the twins:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP2kuEzySP8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP2kuEzySP8)

Now they're claiming they could build a bridge to the moon out of used batteries :wtf:?

I wouldn't be surprised if Frankie Rhubarb already has a patent for thatl :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 17, 2016, 09:14:34 am

Quote from: samgab on December 17, 2016, 03:06:49 am

New "Batteroo Boost" promo video on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9hT4cAOr9g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9hT4cAOr9g)

The  :palm: :palm: :palm: factor is high with this one.
Same old regurgitated marketing spiel about how the device renders useFUL battery gauges useLESS.

In the video the battery gauge shows 90%. This is similar to the 87% a backer reported for an older model of the Apple keyboard. Now compare this to this older video (quick, before they take it down :) )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4zjWynjEo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4zjWynjEo)

100%, so they indeed faked this.

BTW, looks like they updated the batteroo.co webpage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:25:55 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 17, 2016, 09:14:34 am

BTW, looks like they updated the batteroo.co webpage.

It's now back to Batteroo.com

No more claims of only 20% of a battery used?
No more x8 800% etc?

(http://i.imgur.com/nL8IsPf.png)

And new close up render from website:
(http://i.imgur.com/fUqrFqJ.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:28:42 am

And after all these years of development and finally releasing it, the best showcase demos they have are the Apple keyboard, and the flashlight

(http://i.imgur.com/rjDdMMo.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:30:11 am

Out mate Frankie is now claiming 1.1V to 1.3V dropout voltage.
A far cry from his 1.35V to 1.4V in the patent

(http://i.imgur.com/gEWy3pb.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on December 17, 2016, 09:31:43 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 17, 2016, 09:14:34 am

100%, so they indeed faked this.

BTW, looks like they updated the batteroo.co webpage.

Not necessarily faked... it's entirely plausible that the earlier prototype had a higher output voltage while the final one has a lower output voltage (which would be more efficient, especially if the boost converter is designed to operate in bypass until the battery voltage drops too low). 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:34:15 am

And really sprouting those manipulated thrown away battery figures:

(http://i.imgur.com/ZtFxjMg.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:36:47 am

They have now clearly moved into a huge phase and the new website is a big push.
Leave behind all the IGG legacy, no more 80% battery capacity unused claims front and center, now buried away and based mostly on those manipulated recycled figures.
These guys are slick, and looks like they are now going to push this turd hard for the Walmart/Kmart home run.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:43:13 am

Where did this guy come from?
He's now an adviser.
(http://i.imgur.com/JcFHDrg.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:44:45 am

Bingo, they have a new investor sucker:

(http://i.imgur.com/Qcb78G2.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:48:36 am

From Forte Ventures website:
http://www.forteventures.com/investments (http://www.forteventures.com/investments)

(http://i.imgur.com/e1WkI78.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 17, 2016, 10:00:52 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:43:13 am

Where did this guy come from?
He's now an adviser.
(http://i.imgur.com/JcFHDrg.png)

(http://www.corcoranlawbizblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/dilbert-biathlon1.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on December 17, 2016, 10:34:59 am

Quote from: samgab on December 17, 2016, 03:06:49 am

New "Batteroo Boost" promo video on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9hT4cAOr9g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9hT4cAOr9g)

The  :palm: :palm: :palm: factor is high with this one.
Same old regurgitated marketing spiel about how the device renders useFUL battery gauges useLESS.

Seems to me that they are provoking Apple here to come into action:
- Apple in the title,
- Apple logo and products prominently in view,
- subliminal message: "Apple products have bad battery management"

And a public reaction from Apple would be the best publicity for their sleeves they could ever hope for, they need to make the headlines again.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 17, 2016, 10:39:56 am

Quote from: dcac on December 16, 2016, 11:34:05 pm

Initial tests should probably be done without any soldering or tampering with the Batteriser, else Batteroo will just claim that heat transfer, or whatever, changed its characteristics and the test thereby is invalid.

The first tests should be complete discharge curves under different loads. Constant resistance, constant current, constant power. Two or three of each.

This can be done without any soldering.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 17, 2016, 10:44:37 am

Quote from: samgab on December 17, 2016, 02:59:51 am

Yeah, there's a lot to be said for the "K.I.S.S" philosophy. No need for all these ridiculous complex circuits to test if a device that is meant to extend battery life actually extends battery life.

Yep. The public won't care or understand. The first video should be a simple timelapse of identical devices side by side. Starting with probes the monkey.

Unfortunately we only have AAA at the moment so that will make it much harder to find gadgets to text.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 17, 2016, 11:21:39 am

A question:

How much different would we expect the circuitry to be between a AA and AAA sleeve?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 17, 2016, 11:42:21 am

I think that video is actively misleading and deceptive to the point of breaking most advertising regs, as it has a strong implication that the capacity figure with Batterizer is meaningful.

Of course it opens them up to a very simple counter-demo, by repeating the exact same procedure and then seeing how long it continues to run for.

Much as I hate Apple and hate lawsuit nonsense, I really hope Apple go after them.
 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: splin on December 17, 2016, 11:44:39 am

Julian Ilett just reviewed the Xintest HT-02 thermal imaging camera - a modern device with rotten battery management which might just benefit from Batterpoos, except there's a good chance they wouldn't fit. Dropped out with battery voltage of 1.34V/cell - 5.36V into an LDO? What were the designers thinking! See 1:37 and 25:07:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_QyIJlaStY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_QyIJlaStY)

Not exactly mainstream though.

[Edit] Added dropout voltage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 17, 2016, 11:48:12 am

Unfortunate consequence of Australian accent - this sounds to me like "Imagine a container full of Jizz..."  :-DD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-ns4Jf-Bko (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-ns4Jf-Bko)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 17, 2016, 11:48:58 am

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 17, 2016, 11:42:21 am

I think that video is actively misleading and deceptive to the point of breaking most advertising regs, as it has a strong implication that the capacity figure with Batterizer is meaningful.

Of course it opens them up to a very simple counter-demo, by repeating the exact same procedure and then seeing how long it continues to run for.

Much as I hate Apple and hate lawsuit nonsense, I really hope Apple go after them.
 

If they continue to paint certain products in a bad light regarding battery management, then I would expect some consumers of those products will start wondering.  When those people start asking questions - particularly at Apple centred locations - then I can see Apple getting peeved enough to take them to task.  How far they take it is another matter - but Apple have not shown themselves to be shy in this area.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 17, 2016, 11:52:44 am

Looks like a nightmare for any battery that goes into the compartment sideways.

(http://i.imgur.com/fUqrFqJ.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 17, 2016, 11:57:09 am

Guess which video just auto-played after the Batteroo Apple keyboard one....  :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on December 17, 2016, 12:24:51 pm

Whoah, did we finally hit the bonanza?
I'm wondering just how much we are affecting the 'suggestions' put out by youtube and how it might be saving that other new "poor" investor from losing the money(that they've probably already lost anyway)

 |O |O |O |O |O

I do sometimes wish I can strangle those marketting bullshit people over the internet

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on December 17, 2016, 01:01:45 pm

So before their site update, "Early bird pricing" was AA×8 for $20. Now they're charging $9.99 for AA×4

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 01:18:41 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 17, 2016, 11:52:44 am

Looks like a nightmare for any battery that goes into the compartment sideways.
(http://i.imgur.com/fUqrFqJ.png)

My Garmin GPS has springs on the positive contact too, they'll tear those contact to shreads.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on December 17, 2016, 01:56:07 pm

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 17, 2016, 11:48:12 am

Unfortunate consequence of Australian accent - this sounds to me like "Imagine a container full of Jizz..."  :-DD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-ns4Jf-Bko (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-ns4Jf-Bko)

They are giving technically misleading analogy here. The container should not be depicted as | | but instead \ / because the relative voltage drop will be much less at the beginning than at the end. Well, I guess in USA one can present technically faulty and misleading advertisement whatsoever without any consequence.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 17, 2016, 02:32:49 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:44:45 am

Bingo, they have a new investor sucker:

(http://i.imgur.com/Qcb78G2.png)

Great! They've funded another year of free entertainment. >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 17, 2016, 02:53:02 pm

Quote from: madires on December 17, 2016, 02:32:49 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:44:45 am

Bingo, they have a new investor sucker:

(http://i.imgur.com/Qcb78G2.png)

Great! They've funded another year of free entertainment. >:D

Nobody lost money underestimating the gullibility or ignorance of the general public.

I wonder how long before we'll see a high-profile manufacturer explicitly warning against the use of them in their products.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on December 17, 2016, 03:23:15 pm

Quote from: PeterL on December 17, 2016, 10:34:59 am

Seems to me that they are provoking Apple here to come into action:
- Apple in the title,
- Apple logo and products prominently in view,
- subliminal message: "Apple products have bad battery management"

And a public reaction from Apple would be the best publicity for their sleeves they could ever hope for, they need to make the headlines again.

Won't happen. Apple have a policy of very firmly ignoring anything and anyone that doesn't suit their purpose and are better at it than the most stubborn girlfriend in a huff. Apple have a (I think rather stupid) habit of ignoring anyone who is critical of them. If a magazine offers up a review critical of Apple beyond the most mild, it's just a matter of taste, type criticism, that's it - no more review kit, no more invitations to press conferences and no returned phone calls from Apple's PR people.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: gir on December 17, 2016, 03:32:49 pm

long time lurker, but that is interesting:

i got a batterizeroo-ad on this forum just now.  :-DD

https://imgur.com/a/um3j8

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 17, 2016, 03:36:56 pm

Quote from: Someone on December 17, 2016, 05:58:56 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 17, 2016, 03:30:50 am

She sounds like she is from West Australia, I would say around Darwin

Well, Darwin is part of the Northern Territory rather than Western Australia, and while west of the "middle" of Australia its more central than east/west.

Anyway the accent is NSW, of a typical north coast type.

Do we know anybody from that part of Australia who personally visited Batteroo's offices with his wife a few months ago?

Somebody who later got preferential treatment from Bob and a hand-mailed box of Batterisers?  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 17, 2016, 04:13:58 pm

Quote from: gir on December 17, 2016, 03:32:49 pm

long time lurker, but that is interesting:

i got a batterizeroo-ad on this forum just now.  :-DD

https://imgur.com/a/um3j8

So Batteroo is paying Dave for the debunking videos and performance tests. This is hilarious!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BradC on December 17, 2016, 04:14:28 pm

Quote from: ez24 on December 17, 2016, 03:30:50 am

She sounds like she is from West Australia, I would say around Darwin

You sound like you're from California, I would say around Dallas ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on December 17, 2016, 05:26:53 pm

i got a batterizeroo-ad on this forum just now.

Reminds me of a few years ago when a UK MP complained about seeing pron adds on some web page, until someone explained that the ads being served are based on what you'd previously been viewing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on December 17, 2016, 05:27:07 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 03:19:33 am

d) The major fact that battery gauge is now rendered useless

Theoretically it should be possible, to some extent, to relay the remaining battery capacity through the Batteriser, as like when the battery voltage drops so would the output of the Batteriser though of course still keeping a higher voltage than the battery. It’s going to be interesting to see if their custom chip is just a plain boost converter trying to output 1.5V no matter what, or if they included some battery monitoring logic for a more controlled shutdown when battery is close to completely empty.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on December 17, 2016, 05:32:14 pm

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 17, 2016, 02:53:02 pm

Quote from: madires on December 17, 2016, 02:32:49 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:44:45 am

Bingo, they have a new investor sucker:

(http://i.imgur.com/Qcb78G2.png)

Great! They've funded another year of free entertainment. >:D

Nobody lost money underestimating the gullibility or ignorance of the general public.

I wonder how long before we'll see a high-profile manufacturer explicitly warning against the use of them in their products.

I don’t know if battery hungry Multimeters usually already uses a boost converter, but I can imagine someone is going to try using batterisers on them.

And how about the unfortunate U1272A which shown to be sensitive to EMC how would it react to 4 batteriser chokes in very close proximity.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 17, 2016, 06:08:54 pm

DONALD TRUMP ENDORSES BATTEROO
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=278631;image)
(Well it has to happen sooner or later, i'm just getting in first)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on December 17, 2016, 06:25:27 pm

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 17, 2016, 11:48:12 am

Unfortunate consequence of Australian accent - this sounds to me like "Imagine a container full of Jizz..."  :-DD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-ns4Jf-Bko (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-ns4Jf-Bko)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kds80xmLUPA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kds80xmLUPA)

:P :P :P

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on December 17, 2016, 06:52:48 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 06:05:56 am

Quote from: Cerebus on December 17, 2016, 04:08:56 am

e) How pointless the whole exercise is as the Apple Wireless Keyboard lasts forever on a pair of batteries anyway. (I get around 9 months to a set of batteries with the keyboard left turned on 24x7.)
f) I checked a set of batteries immediately after they came out of an Apple Wireless Trackpad as 'dead' (the Trackpad actually turned off in use after weeks of low battery warning) a couple of weeks back. They had an off load, open circuit voltage of around 0.85V. It just happened that as they went dead I was playing around withcharacterizing an LT2400 ADC and an AD586 reference on a breadboard not three feet away so I hooked one up to amuse myself by watching the open circuit voltage creep up microvolt by microvolt as they recovered.

Yep, someone on here measured the dropout voltage of an Apple keyboard, and it was sub 1V per cell IIRC, so it's already very well designed to extract the maximum juice form the battery
It is the most useless example possible really. And they can't claim it's the ESR and current pulses etc in an apple keyboard. They have absolutely no leg to stand on.

About 0.95V IIRC. My notebook was stolen with my data in it. :-/

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 17, 2016, 08:19:25 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:34:15 am

And really sprouting those manipulated thrown away battery figures:

(http://i.imgur.com/ZtFxjMg.png)

When they say "dead batteries" they mean discarded batteries.

So it turns out, if you throw away a battery with 93% capacity remaining, you could get 10 times the run time, if you used it till it was fully discharged....

Whats this got to do with the Batterpoo though?

Their percentage figures confuse me though.... surely the total percentage of discarded batteries must add up to 100%? And also take in to consideration the percentage that are completely depleted?

According to Batterpoo, 200% of dead batteries have over 50% capacity remaining?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Spuddevans on December 17, 2016, 08:34:13 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 17, 2016, 08:19:25 pm

According to Batterpoo, 200% of dead batteries have over 50% capacity remaining?

The thing that struck me about that image you quoted, it says "Perceived" dead batteries thrown away, PERCEIVED!!! Perceived by who? Doesn't that mean that they have just Imagined (Dreamt, plucked a figure out of the great blue beyond) how many batteries have been thrown away, and then imagined how many of those imaginary thrown-away batteries were not fully discharged!!

Say what you want about the creators of the Batterpoo, they have got great imagination's.

Tim

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 17, 2016, 08:39:58 pm

Quote from: Spuddevans on December 17, 2016, 08:34:13 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 17, 2016, 08:19:25 pm

According to Batterpoo, 200% of dead batteries have over 50% capacity remaining?

The thing that struck me about that image you quoted, it says "Perceived" dead batteries thrown away, PERCEIVED!!! Perceived by who? Doesn't that mean that they have just Imagined (Dreamt, plucked a figure out of the great blue beyond) how many batteries have been thrown away, and then imagined how many of those imaginary thrown-away batteries were not fully discharged!!

Say what you want about the creators of the Batterpoo, they have got great imagination's.

Tim

Thats what the original data showed, that a lot of discarded batteries are actually not "dead" which is why I referred to it as "discarded" not "dead"

People throw away batteries that still have life in them, whether it be a digital camera, that they don't want going flat while they're on holiday, wireless microphones, or something along those lines, that no one would ever use a batterpoo in anyway.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:25:31 pm

Quote from: StillTrying on December 17, 2016, 05:26:53 pm

i got a batterizeroo-ad on this forum just now.
Reminds me of a few years ago when a UK MP complained about seeing pron adds on some web page, until someone explained that the ads being served are based on what you'd previously been viewing.

They must be deliberately targeting technical users through Supply Frame who run the ad server on this forum. These are not Google Adsense ads.
That's money down the drain for them!  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:28:14 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 17, 2016, 08:19:25 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:34:15 am

And really sprouting those manipulated thrown away battery figures:

(http://i.imgur.com/ZtFxjMg.png)

When they say "dead batteries" they mean discarded batteries.

So it turns out, if you throw away a battery with 93% capacity remaining, you could get 10 times the run time, if you used it till it was fully discharged....
Whats this got to do with the Batterpoo though?

Absolutely nothing. They are just using is as a bullshit to justify their demonstrably wrong "only 20% of a battery is used" claim.

Quote

Their percentage figures confuse me though.... surely the total percentage of discarded batteries must add up to 100%? And also take in to consideration the percentage that are completely depleted?
According to Batterpoo, 200% of dead batteries have over 50% capacity remaining?

If you go read the actual paper (which they found on this forum thread BTW after someone posted it) they have very deliberately misinterpreted the data.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:32:12 pm

Quote from: dcac on December 17, 2016, 05:32:14 pm

I don’t know if battery hungry Multimeters usually already uses a boost converter, but I can imagine someone is going to try using batterisers on them.
And how about the unfortunate U1272A which shown to be sensitive to EMC how would it react to 4 batteriser chokes in very close proximity.

Problem with multimeter is they usually have a few hundred hours battery life. That makes for a long test.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on December 17, 2016, 09:33:54 pm

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 17, 2016, 11:48:12 am

Unfortunate consequence of Australian accent - this sounds to me like "Imagine a container full of Jizz..."  :-DD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-ns4Jf-Bko (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-ns4Jf-Bko)

Well, technically a battery *is* like a container of jizz! After all, both are composed of electrolytes!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:35:25 pm

Quote from: dcac on December 17, 2016, 05:27:07 pm

Theoretically it should be possible, to some extent, to relay the remaining battery capacity through the Batteriser, as like when the battery voltage drops so would the output of the Batteriser though of course still keeping a higher voltage than the battery. It’s going to be interesting to see if their custom chip is just a plain boost converter trying to output 1.5V no matter what, or if they included some battery monitoring logic for a more controlled shutdown when battery is close to completely empty.

It's a plain fixed boost converter. All their marketing has reflected that and early tests show 1.5V out with a low voltage input. No scaled output.
The problem with the scaled output is that it will be product dependent, so you can't really do that with a general purpose product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: IanB on December 17, 2016, 10:01:37 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:35:25 pm

Quote from: dcac on December 17, 2016, 05:27:07 pm

Theoretically it should be possible, to some extent, to relay the remaining battery capacity through the Batteriser, as like when the battery voltage drops so would the output of the Batteriser though of course still keeping a higher voltage than the battery. It’s going to be interesting to see if their custom chip is just a plain boost converter trying to output 1.5V no matter what, or if they included some battery monitoring logic for a more controlled shutdown when battery is close to completely empty.

It's a plain fixed boost converter. All their marketing has reflected that and early tests show 1.5V out with a low voltage input. No scaled output.
The problem with the scaled output is that it will be product dependent, so you can't really do that with a general purpose product.

Although I suspect that any boost converter will have a hard time maintaining a 1.5 V output under load with a depleted alkaline battery providing the input power. So the probability is that the output voltage will drop off gradually as the battery runs down.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Someone on December 17, 2016, 10:06:57 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 17, 2016, 03:36:56 pm

Quote from: Someone on December 17, 2016, 05:58:56 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 17, 2016, 03:30:50 am

She sounds like she is from West Australia, I would say around Darwin

Well, Darwin is part of the Northern Territory rather than Western Australia, and while west of the "middle" of Australia its more central than east/west.

Anyway the accent is NSW, of a typical north coast type.

Do we know anybody from that part of Australia who personally visited Batteroo's offices with his wife a few months ago?

Somebody who later got preferential treatment from Bob and a hand-mailed box of Batterisers?  :popcorn:

You really need to brush up on Australian geography, Darwin is nowhere near the NSW north coast. Here are some Darwin accents for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWLhKlFoL_Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWLhKlFoL_Q)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 17, 2016, 10:11:37 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:32:12 pm

Problem with multimeter is they usually have a few hundred hours battery life. That makes for a long test.

I am monitoring my AC mains 7/24 and get about 8 days on high quality 1000 mAh (min 800 mAh) Kastar rechargeable AAA batteries (2) in my multimeter (not Bryman).   I get about 18 hours on my MP3 player (like the one that is going to be used in the tests).  It will be hard to do real device testing with AAA batteries because of the lack of such devices.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on December 17, 2016, 10:19:30 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:35:25 pm

Quote from: dcac on December 17, 2016, 05:27:07 pm

Theoretically it should be possible, to some extent, to relay the remaining battery capacity through the Batteriser, as like when the battery voltage drops so would the output of the Batteriser though of course still keeping a higher voltage than the battery. It’s going to be interesting to see if their custom chip is just a plain boost converter trying to output 1.5V no matter what, or if they included some battery monitoring logic for a more controlled shutdown when battery is close to completely empty.

It's a plain fixed boost converter. All their marketing has reflected that and early tests show 1.5V out with a low voltage input. No scaled output.
The problem with the scaled output is that it will be product dependent, so you can't really do that with a general purpose product.

Some form of scaled output could at least give the user some warning instead of a sudden shutdown. I believe from the very start it was mentioned that battery gauges would be rendered useless and it's a significant drawback. If only battteroo were paying attention, we'll see. But in any case it would be up to the user to 'reinterpret' what the battery gauge is showing, and they are often not very accurate to begin with.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on December 17, 2016, 10:32:31 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:32:12 pm

Quote from: dcac on December 17, 2016, 05:32:14 pm

I don’t know if battery hungry Multimeters usually already uses a boost converter, but I can imagine someone is going to try using batterisers on them.

Problem with multimeter is they usually have a few hundred hours battery life. That makes for a long test.

I was more thinking of older feature rich DMMs with 50-100h runtime, though many of those are probably on 9V so not really relevant (yet).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 18, 2016, 12:39:27 am

Quote from: IanB on December 17, 2016, 10:01:37 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 17, 2016, 09:35:25 pm

Quote from: dcac on December 17, 2016, 05:27:07 pm

Theoretically it should be possible, to some extent, to relay the remaining battery capacity through the Batteriser, as like when the battery voltage drops so would the output of the Batteriser though of course still keeping a higher voltage than the battery. It’s going to be interesting to see if their custom chip is just a plain boost converter trying to output 1.5V no matter what, or if they included some battery monitoring logic for a more controlled shutdown when battery is close to completely empty.

It's a plain fixed boost converter. All their marketing has reflected that and early tests show 1.5V out with a low voltage input. No scaled output.
The problem with the scaled output is that it will be product dependent, so you can't really do that with a general purpose product.

Although I suspect that any boost converter will have a hard time maintaining a 1.5 V output under load with a depleted alkaline battery providing the input power. So the probability is that the output voltage will drop off gradually as the battery runs down.

Nope - it will try to maintain 1.5v, and just draw more & more current in an attempt to do so, so the output will just suddenly fall off a cliff, and maybe repeatedly recover and fail a few times, depending on the load characteristics.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 18, 2016, 12:57:43 am

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 18, 2016, 12:39:27 am

Nope - it will try to maintain 1.5v, and just draw more & more current in an attempt to do so, so the output will just suddenly fall off a cliff, and maybe repeatedly recover and fail a few times, depending on the load characteristics.

Yep.  My thoughts as well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on December 18, 2016, 01:00:49 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 18, 2016, 12:57:43 am

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 18, 2016, 12:39:27 am

Nope - it will try to maintain 1.5v, and just draw more & more current in an attempt to do so, so the output will just suddenly fall off a cliff, and maybe repeatedly recover and fail a few times, depending on the load characteristics.

Yep.  My thoughts as well.

The videos are going to be fascinating, I too think this is the most likely scenario.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 18, 2016, 01:13:41 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 18, 2016, 12:57:43 am

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 18, 2016, 12:39:27 am

Nope - it will try to maintain 1.5v, and just draw more & more current in an attempt to do so, so the output will just suddenly fall off a cliff, and maybe repeatedly recover and fail a few times, depending on the load characteristics.

Yep.  My thoughts as well.

Maybe they could do a 'pacemaker' version to show Boob's faith in his product?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on December 18, 2016, 03:27:55 am

I can't find any matches for "B041" (not sure of the package --- is that a WLCSP?), but would not be surprised if it's actually an existing boost IC. Some of the other IC-ID gurus on here might have better luck though.

Quote from: timb on December 17, 2016, 09:33:54 pm

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 17, 2016, 11:48:12 am

Unfortunate consequence of Australian accent - this sounds to me like "Imagine a container full of Jizz..."  :-DD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-ns4Jf-Bko (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-ns4Jf-Bko)

Well, technically a battery *is* like a container of jizz! After all, both are composed of electrolytes!

..."flow into a passive load device, such as a fleshlight..." :o :-DD

I see it says 3 comments on the video, but I can't see any of them. Have they been deleting them again...?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on December 18, 2016, 04:03:18 am

 So they hired some big-time marketing wank, that no one apparently ever heard of until you look up his Wikipedia page and see what he was (allegedly) involved with.

 But you know who could sell these things big time, if he were still around? Joe Sugarman. I mostly remember his ads from the paged of Popular Electronics back in the day, but I'm sure they ran in other magazines of the time as well.

 Most everything I have that takes AA or AAA batteries has a spring for the positive terminal, only a few have a metal strip which wouldn't chew up those contacts on the Batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on December 18, 2016, 08:22:11 am

Can a company use a "Cease and Desist" document to prevent a decupping of a chip? :D

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: razvanme on December 18, 2016, 08:55:50 am

Like it was said previously I don't think anyone has doubts about the boost converter, and keeping a constant 1.5V.
Now the video regarding the "fleshlight" has brought another point. By definition using a flashlight means you walking in darkness or needing some light. Using the batteriser means you can have constant light and going into darkness suddenly. I think I would prefer extra time with a small amount of light, then consuming everything and using ecolocation to navigate after that.

What happens if you are in a forest and need to get back, I prefer extra time with a small amount of light, than spending the night there. Or if you are in a cave, again extra time wins. So even the flashlight example is wrong, by definition I need light, the longer the better.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 18, 2016, 09:12:30 am

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 17, 2016, 02:53:02 pm

I wonder how long before we'll see a high-profile manufacturer explicitly warning against the use of them in their products.

All it will take is one person to complain to the manufacturer that their battery gauge is "faulty". Batteroo don't warn you about this, so you can't expect Joe Public to understand that it would be the Batteroo at fault.

Batteroo are stuck between a rock and a hard place here. They can't tell people it will render their battery gauge useless because that will kill sales. But people will ultimately complain about this and it will lead to bad press and warnings from the manufacturers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 18, 2016, 09:14:13 am

Quote from: firewalker on December 18, 2016, 08:22:11 am

Can a company use a "Cease and Desist" document to prevent a decupping of a chip? :D

Nope. Reverse engineering for educational and journalistic purposes is allowed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 18, 2016, 09:30:11 am

Quote from: amyk on December 18, 2016, 03:27:55 am

I see it says 3 comments on the video, but I can't see any of them. Have they been deleting them again...?

"awaiting approval deletion"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Someone on December 18, 2016, 10:23:50 am

Quote from: razvanme on December 18, 2016, 08:55:50 am

Like it was said previously I don't think anyone has doubts about the boost converter, and keeping a constant 1.5V.
Now the video regarding the "fleshlight" has brought another point. By definition using a flashlight means you walking in darkness or needing some light. Using the batteriser means you can have constant light and going into darkness suddenly. I think I would prefer extra time with a small amount of light, then consuming everything and using ecolocation to navigate after that.

What happens if you are in a forest and need to get back, I prefer extra time with a small amount of light, than spending the night there. Or if you are in a cave, again extra time wins. So even the flashlight example is wrong, by definition I need light, the longer the better.

Petzl maintained this gradual dimming as one of the "features" even in their regulated lamps:
https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/How-is-Petzl-lighting-performance-measured-?ProductName=NAO-PLUS (https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/How-is-Petzl-lighting-performance-measured-?ProductName=NAO-PLUS)
Most people feel its a very important feature of a lamp.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 18, 2016, 11:07:58 am

Yes, in a torch "anaemic glow worm" is a lot better than having a unit that just drops off dead at some point, with absolutely no warning at all. kind of like a "limp home" mode is built into a car ECU, so that a simple failure, which does not totally disable the engine, leaves you still able to at least get to a safe place to stop or repair it.

Otherwise grenading the engine and drivetrain if an interior light blows will soon drive a manufacturer out of business. Yes it is going to make sure the unit is always working perfectly, but pretty soon people will stop buying them as they break down for almost no reason.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 18, 2016, 12:08:37 pm

If you look at decent flashlights they're designed to have a flat brightness then gradual falloff.

eg. Daves Fenix LD01 (green line is brightness):

(http://www.lygte-info.dk/pic/Fenix/LD01-2010-SS/Fenix%20LD01%20medium.png)

The designers obviously went to great effort to get a curve as perfect as that, I wouldn't want a Batteriser messing with it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: razvanme on December 18, 2016, 12:46:42 pm

That's one reason I don't like them, and the product (Beside lying). One of the design rules for a product is to fail in a in a controlled way. They decrease functionality and keep on working. Any product I can imagine does that, you decrease performance and functionality, yet you keep on working and let the user know the performance is degrading.
I am pretty sure any phone could have the screen as bright as possible and when the battery is out, shut down. I don't think users will be happy.

The only kind of product this will work is where you need constant performance all the time, even in that case I am sure the designers would have done something to let the user know about it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on December 18, 2016, 03:56:23 pm

Relatedly, here are some discharge "curves" of a li-ion with a buck regulator (somewhat like the opposite of the Batteroo):

http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Kentli%20AA%202800mWh%20(Blue)%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Kentli%20AA%202800mWh%20(Blue)%20UK.html)

1.5V for some time, then nothing.

I expect the Batteroos will have the same effect.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 19, 2016, 06:37:24 am

Out of curiosity, have we got ETA for those AAA Batterisers to Dave's office? We're all very excited and cannot wait!!

Thanks again to our EEVBlog member razvanme for sharing his Batterisers with us for testing purposes!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 19, 2016, 08:52:43 am

The $100 bounty has been claimed, and some AAA's are making their way to me via DHL (but no tracking yet)
The money will be going to charity.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on December 19, 2016, 09:07:51 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 19, 2016, 08:52:43 am

The $100 bounty has been claimed, and some AAA's are making their way to me via DHL (but no tracking yet)
The money will be going to charity.

 :clap: Excellent, looking forward to that video....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: razvanme on December 19, 2016, 09:10:16 am

Quote from: quad on December 19, 2016, 06:37:24 am

Out of curiosity, have we got ETA for those AAA Batterisers to Dave's office? We're all very excited and cannot wait!!

Thanks again to our EEVBlog member razvanme for sharing his Batterisers with us for testing purposes!

Thank you, the only reason I backed them was in the hope I will get some and send them to you guys and to Dave, I am not keeping any sleeve and I don't want any sleeve, I prefer my gadgets to show me when the battery is low.

The package has been sent, 4 sleeves will reach Dave, hopefully this week. It's all up to Dave to keep us updated.

Still amazed that from 7000 backers I was in the top of the list for shipping, I guess Batteroo should know you can't escape Murphy.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on December 19, 2016, 10:46:54 am

Lets hope, the package don't get lost during shipping.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 19, 2016, 11:12:22 am

Quote from: Barny on December 19, 2016, 10:46:54 am

Lets hope, the package don't get lost during shipping.

I don't think Bob's arm is that long.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 19, 2016, 11:27:38 am

If it doesn't get to Dave before Christmas, there might be a bit of a wait....

Between Saturday 24th to Monday 2nd January, Australia Post will only be working on the 29th & 30th December.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 19, 2016, 11:27:48 am

Quote from: razvanme on December 19, 2016, 09:10:16 am

Thank you, the only reason I backed them was in the hope I will get some and send them to you guys and to Dave

I know many people that did the same, but you are so far the only one that has received shipping notification let alone actual product!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 19, 2016, 11:28:27 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 19, 2016, 11:27:38 am

If it doesn't get to Dave before Christmas, there might be a bit of a wait....
Between Saturday 24th to Monday 2nd January, Australia Post will only be working on the 29th & 30th December.

It's coming via DHL express to my office.
Not scanned in the system yet though...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GoneTomorrow on December 19, 2016, 11:33:33 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 19, 2016, 11:28:27 am

It's coming via DHL express to my office.
Not scanned in the system yet though...

F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on December 19, 2016, 11:48:44 am

Dave's Christmas present for us will be a Batteriser video...?! Awesome! :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on December 19, 2016, 11:58:22 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 19, 2016, 11:12:22 am

Quote from: Barny on December 19, 2016, 10:46:54 am

Lets hope, the package don't get lost during shipping.

I don't think Bob's arm is that long.

But the post mans arm is that lazy.

For example:
I've an 25% chance to get my package (If I don't use an package depot station).
25% chance it get delivered to an random post office within 50km radius.
25% chance that the package get delivered to an random door in the neighbourhood.
(There are 3 similar sounding streets within 5km radius)
25% chance the package disapears during the delivery without a trace.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: razvanme on December 19, 2016, 02:32:37 pm

The package is en-route to FrankBuss also, talked to them about arrivals, it should reach Frank on Wednesday. It should reach Customs in Australia on Friday. The codes for tracking them should be available later today, even tomorrow morning for Frank.

Update The codes are visible on DHL's website. So now we just wait.

Quote from: EEVblog on December 19, 2016, 11:27:48 am

I know many people that did the same, but you are so far the only one that has received shipping notification let alone actual product!

That might be another business option. Get a community to really desire a product by turning them against you and not giving them anything. And then wait for people to secretly back your product in the hopes they prove you wrong.

Curios how many backed them in order to get their hands on some sleeves and actually test them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 19, 2016, 03:17:49 pm

Quote from: razvanme on December 19, 2016, 02:32:37 pm

Curios how many backed them in order to get their hands on some sleeves and actually test them.

I guess only a very low percentage of the backers. Most people are no engineers and couldn't care less about testing, timing and drawing characteristic curves. All they want to see is an Apple battery gauge showing low battery and full battery with Batteroo, it's magic :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on December 19, 2016, 08:09:33 pm

I am secretly hopeful that the outcome of this is that there is now a dirt cheap boost converter available to the prole.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 19, 2016, 08:25:07 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 19, 2016, 08:09:33 pm

I am secretly hopeful that the outcome of this is that there is now a dirt cheap boost converter available to the prole.

Huh?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=dc+boost+converter (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=dc+boost+converter)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 19, 2016, 08:52:23 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 19, 2016, 08:52:43 am

The $100 bounty has been claimed, and some AAA's are making their way to me via DHL (but no tracking yet)
The money will be going to charity.

(http://i.imgur.com/gEaShKP.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on December 19, 2016, 08:53:30 pm

Fantastic  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CJay on December 19, 2016, 08:53:56 pm

Excellent choice of charity.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on December 19, 2016, 09:11:55 pm

Quote from: amyk on December 19, 2016, 11:48:44 am

Dave's Christmas present for us will be a Batteriser video...?! Awesome! :D

Considering the ETA is Dec. 23rd, I guess it's more like New Year's present.

In the mean time it would be cool if Dave would share with us what tests his units will undergo, or what he's got in store for them once they're delivered.

I believe he's already been in touch with people who'll decap and take microscopic photos of the die. What else?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ysjoelfir on December 19, 2016, 09:20:14 pm

Little side note: We are approaching the 300 pages mark in this topic as a valid item is finally arriving at Daves lab. Nice! We should celebrate this milestone!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 19, 2016, 09:26:36 pm

Quote from: Ysjoelfir on December 19, 2016, 09:20:14 pm

Little side note: We are approaching the 300 pages mark in this topic as a valid item is finally arriving at Daves lab. Nice! We should celebrate this milestone!

What is it now, a year and a half since this fiasco started?
Batteroo could have sent a media review unit way back then and avoided all this, or any time in between. But now I have to get one from a guy in Romania who just happened to get lucky and get one of the seemingly handful of units in the wild. Crazy.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 19, 2016, 09:34:17 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on December 19, 2016, 09:11:55 pm

In the mean time it would be cool if Dave would share with us what tests his units will undergo, or what he's got in store for them once they're delivered.

Me have a plan?  :-DD
One will get wires soldered on for efficiency curve measurement.
Will test minimum startup voltage, output ripple (vs current), switching frequency, temp, that sort of stuff. So expect that in the first video.
I'll pop two others in a AAA product (maybe my GPS watch if I can find it) with timelapse.
Actually, I should start product testing now without the Batteriser for a benchmark.
Maybe the product timelapse will make the first video, not sure, but product testing takes time.

Quote

I believe he's already been in touch with people who'll decap and take microscopic photos of the die. What else?

I believe some will be on their way separately to the Zeptobars decapping guy.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on December 19, 2016, 09:37:05 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 19, 2016, 08:25:07 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 19, 2016, 08:09:33 pm

I am secretly hopeful that the outcome of this is that there is now a dirt cheap boost converter available to the prole.

Huh?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=dc+boost+converter (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=dc+boost+converter)

I'm not talking about those. I'm referring to the IC.

The batterizer BOM cost is likely around $0.75 USD, which might make the IC around $0.20 or so. If that math is close, that would be a cool IC, even if it was only good to 500 mA.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on December 19, 2016, 09:42:15 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 19, 2016, 11:27:38 am

If it doesn't get to Dave before Christmas, there might be a bit of a wait....

Between Saturday 24th to Monday 2nd January, Australia Post will only be working on the 29th & 30th December.

Some of us aren't even working that! I started my leave yesterday. :D

But yes you are correct the delivery centres have been going full tilt with maximum staffing levels (even staff from other parts off the biz have been helping out + heaps of casuals) so I think they deserve their breaks. :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: orolo on December 19, 2016, 10:12:36 pm

I don't know if it has been covered, but could it happen that in a multi battery device one of the batteries plunges to 0V while the others keep pushing 1.5V, leading to battery failure simmilar to mixing old and new cells?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BarsMonster on December 19, 2016, 10:27:14 pm

Quote from: orolo on December 19, 2016, 10:12:36 pm

I don't know if it has been covered, but could it happen that in a multi battery device one of the batteries plunges to 0V while the others keep pushing 1.5V, leading to battery failure simmilar to mixing old and new cells?

Maybe they have invented some battery neighbor discovery interface, so when 1 battery drops to 0 - it is bypassed by FET ( Schottky might have too high leakage), and the remaining battery boost to 3V now. Mixing old and new batteries this way could indeed be useful in some scenarios and provide extra capacity. Fat chance...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on December 19, 2016, 10:33:32 pm

Quote from: Ysjoelfir

... We are approaching the 300 pages mark in this topic ..... Nice! We should celebrate this milestone! 

Waaaaay ahead of you (hic)  :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 19, 2016, 10:34:43 pm

Quote from: LabSpokane on December 19, 2016, 09:37:05 pm

The batterizer BOM cost is likely around $0.75 USD, which might make the IC around $0.20 or so. If that math is close, that would be a cool IC, even if it was only good to 500 mA.

I can buy one of those Chinese modules for $0.50, so... cheap chips already exist. Some of them work with a single battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on December 20, 2016, 01:23:45 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 19, 2016, 09:34:17 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on December 19, 2016, 09:11:55 pm

In the mean time it would be cool if Dave would share with us what tests his units will undergo, or what he's got in store for them once they're delivered.

Me have a plan?  :-DD
One will get wires soldered on for efficiency curve measurement.
Will test minimum startup voltage, output ripple (vs current), switching frequency, temp, that sort of stuff. So expect that in the first video.
I'll pop two others in a AAA product (maybe my GPS watch if I can find it) with timelapse.
Actually, I should start product testing now without the Batteriser for a benchmark.
Maybe the product timelapse will make the first video, not sure, but product testing takes time.

Quote

I believe he's already been in touch with people who'll decap and take microscopic photos of the die. What else?

I believe some will be on their way separately to the Zeptobars decapping guy.

You have the best Batteroo test equipment in the world! PROBES!  :-DD

Waiting and preparing to watch this Mega-Movie :popcorn:

Also I'm on the 300th page yay!  :clap: :clap:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on December 20, 2016, 03:37:08 am

Along with all the technical data, I think you should include "real world" examples for those who either don't fully understand the technical stuff or simply don't care. For example: Device A - Run time with/without Batteriser and include actual "perfomance" figures too, so for something like a torch you might want to include a graph showing light output over time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 20, 2016, 05:13:50 am

Don't tell Boob, let's see how long it takes him to spot the spelling mistake.
(We already know BatterPoo reads this site.)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=279154;image)

I before E - except after BatterPoo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 20, 2016, 06:09:48 am

I can't find the information on the Batteroo webpage that it is not recommended to use Batteroo with LED flashlights, as it is written in the letter (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1085277/#msg1085277) you get with the sleeves. Did they forget to mention this?

BTW, while searching the website, I noticed an interesting change in the FAQ about max current:

Quote

Are there limitations on devices that can use the Batteroo based on the current consumptions? No, the Batteroo sleeve is designed to only deliver as much current as a battery would supply normally

Translation from weasel speak: the regulator IC has an integrated current limiter and you are screwed if your device needs more. As the Wayback machine reveals, this sounded more optimistic some months ago:

https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20160630134320/http://batteriser.com/faq/ (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20160630134320/http://batteriser.com/faq/) :

Quote

Are there limitations on devices that can use the Batteriser based on the current consumptions? No, the Batteriser sleeve is designed to deliver as much current as a battery is able to supply to the device.

PS: in 2001 batteroo.com was some (south) Korean website: https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20011117092248/http://batteroo.com:80/ (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20011117092248/http://batteroo.com:80/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 20, 2016, 06:42:16 am

Quote from: Halcyon on December 20, 2016, 03:37:08 am

Along with all the technical data, I think you should include "real world" examples for those who either don't fully understand the technical stuff or simply don't care. For example: Device A - Run time with/without Batteriser and include actual "perfomance" figures too, so for something like a torch you might want to include a graph showing light output over time.

Of course, why do you think I have that product run time spreadsheet setup.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 20, 2016, 07:14:11 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 20, 2016, 06:09:48 am

I can't find the information on the Batteroo webpage that it is not recommended to use Batteroo with LED flashlights, as it is written in the letter (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1085277/#msg1085277) you get with the sleeves. Did they forget to mention this?

Quote from the letter you posted:

"we do not recommend using Batteroo with LED flashlights"

This is under Passive Loads

Therefore I am afraid any testing with LED lights will be meaningless.  Stick with the MP3 player (FYI mine is 8 gb)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 20, 2016, 09:25:40 am

Quote from: Luminax on December 20, 2016, 01:23:45 am

You have the best Batteroo test equipment in the world! PROBES!  :-DD

I'm not so sure. Probes might clap more ferociously with batteriser so some people would call that a win even if he clapped for half the time.

Any testing of Probes would need to count the total number of claps. Maybe you could sit him next to a microphone then record a wav file and calculate the RMS volume.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 20, 2016, 09:27:02 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 20, 2016, 07:14:11 am

"we do not recommend using Batteroo with LED flashlights"

ie. The easiest, most obvious thing that most people would test is forbidden and Bob can weasel out of any results that might involve torches.

(apart from his own torch video, obviously...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 20, 2016, 09:27:47 am

Quote from: Luminax on December 20, 2016, 01:23:45 am

Also I'm on the 300th page yay!  :clap: :clap:

So am I, it would seem.  Does this signify anything?



Oh, wait ....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 20, 2016, 10:02:11 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 20, 2016, 09:27:02 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 20, 2016, 07:14:11 am

"we do not recommend using Batteroo with LED flashlights"

ie. The easiest, most obvious thing that most people would test is forbidden and Bob can weasel out of any results that might involve torches.

(apart from his own torch video, obviously...)

But I couldn't find this limitation on the Batteroo webpage or Indiegogo description. If I buy a product, and then I get informed of important limitations only after I got the product doesn't sound right, and even Batteroo friend Wayne did use it with torches.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kurzweil on December 20, 2016, 10:08:49 am

Dave, I think the first video should be a test that shows if the product is useful for customers and if it lives up to its claims. Nothing extremely technical. This is, after all, what it is about.The general public can use this video to determine if they want to buy the product, they cannot determine that by all sorts of technical stuff. Then, a next video could be about testing efficiency etc for the technical people.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 20, 2016, 10:15:37 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 20, 2016, 10:02:11 am

But I couldn't find this limitation on the Batteroo webpage or Indiegogo description. If I buy a product, and then I get informed of important limitations only after I got the product doesn't sound right, and even Batteroo friend Wayne did use it with torches.

I still think Wayne's torches were included in the box from Bob - they found something that actually lasted much longer by cheating (the torch was slightly current limited on Batteriser).

Do the test.

Bob can use the disclaimer to weasel but I bet a lot of these will be bought for use in torches. People need to be angry if they don't work.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 20, 2016, 10:47:17 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 20, 2016, 09:25:40 am

I'm not so sure. Probes might clap more ferociously with batteriser so some people would call that a win even if he clapped for half the time.

This brings to mind the original 'Energiser' & 'Duracell' bunny ads from the 80s
That would be a great remake with two toys side-by-side, and a spoof voice-over to re-create the feeling of that original commercial.  Look, the Batterpoo bunny runs faster and harder for half as long.
Battery steroids?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaF6FxmixJk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaF6FxmixJk)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 20, 2016, 11:38:50 am

The simplest possible test would be a 1.5 V (or 3V) incandescent torch bulb in a bulb holder connected to an AA or AAA cell holder. No electronics. Insert cell. Time and record with video time lapse. Repeat with batteroo'd cell, also time with time lapse. Have recording camera set with same fixed aperture in both tests. Play back both test videos side by side. See how the brightness compares visually, and see which one dims first and which bulb dies first.

(http://www.usefulcomponents.com/ebay/pictures/optical/bulbs/mes_bulbs/1v5/1v5_mes_lit_s.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 20, 2016, 12:19:52 pm

Quote from: samgab on December 20, 2016, 11:38:50 am

Play back both test videos side by side. See how the brightness compares visually, and see which one dims first and which bulb dies first.

The magic of video editing, I really like this idea. The effect of the Batteroo sleeve would be obvious if you can see the lamp still glowing without the sleeve  for half of the video while the Batteroo side is dark. Don't forget to place a timer (I will use my iPhone) in the test setup as well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 20, 2016, 12:24:17 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 20, 2016, 12:19:52 pm

Quote from: samgab on December 20, 2016, 11:38:50 am

Play back both test videos side by side. See how the brightness compares visually, and see which one dims first and which bulb dies first.

The magic of video editing, I really like this idea. The effect of the Batteroo sleeve would be obvious if you can see the lamp still glowing without the sleeve  for half of the video while the Batteroo side is dark. Don't forget to place a timer (I will use my iPhone) in the test setup as well.

Be sure to use fixed exposure on the camera.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on December 20, 2016, 12:30:50 pm

Just use two light bulbs and two battery holders (one with the Batteroo). No editing needed. :D :D :D

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 20, 2016, 12:32:31 pm

Quote from: BarsMonster on December 19, 2016, 10:27:14 pm

Quote from: orolo on December 19, 2016, 10:12:36 pm

I don't know if it has been covered, but could it happen that in a multi battery device one of the batteries plunges to 0V while the others keep pushing 1.5V, leading to battery failure simmilar to mixing old and new cells?

Maybe they have invented some battery neighbor discovery interface, so when 1 battery drops to 0 - it is bypassed by FET ( Schottky might have too high leakage), and the remaining battery boost to 3V now. Mixing old and new batteries this way could indeed be useful in some scenarios and provide extra capacity. Fat chance...

I don't think that mixing batteries is a good idea and the Batteroo sleeves wouldn't help either. Even with a smart bypass you'll lose 1.5V which might trigger the device's low-bat warning or cut-out voltage. Another point is the current. The sleeve with the cell nearing its end might not provide enough current to power the device. And think about the hassle to find out which cell to replace. If your device needs three AAs and you put a fresh set of AAs in, you'll replace them once when they are empty. If you are mixing cells your device stops working two times more in the same time, and you have to figure out which cell to replace.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 20, 2016, 01:00:12 pm

Quote from: firewalker on December 20, 2016, 12:30:50 pm

Just use to light bulbs and two battery holder (one with the Batteroo). No editing needed. :D :D :D

Alexander.

I think the full running time might be a bit boring.  Maybe take a 5 second clip from every minute or just speed up playback.

A bit of clearly impartial editing would really be necessary for most people, but you could still have the full video available for those who want to scour every frame.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 20, 2016, 01:17:01 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 20, 2016, 12:19:52 pm

Quote from: samgab on December 20, 2016, 11:38:50 am

Play back both test videos side by side. See how the brightness compares visually, and see which one dims first and which bulb dies first.

The magic of video editing, I really like this idea. The effect of the Batteroo sleeve would be obvious if you can see the lamp still glowing without the sleeve  for half of the video while the Batteroo side is dark. Don't forget to place a timer (I will use my iPhone) in the test setup as well.

Good one. As Dave mentioned, the fixed exposure is important, as usually the iPhone will normally adjust it's exposure so you won't be able to tell the actual relative brightness of the bulb. And to have the same ambient brightness and exposure/iso/frame rate/shutter speed/aperture in each time lapse. There are pro photog apps which you can get for the iPhone which will allow you to do this. But don't use the built in iPhone camera time lapse app. Sorry if this is all obvious to you, don't mean to tell you how to suck eggs. Look forward to seeing what you come up with.   :-+
(As was also suggested, having two bulbs and two battery holders side by side in the same shot - and starting both at the same time one with and one without a Batteroo sleeve - would save some time, but I was just afraid of detractors claiming that the two bulbs have slightly different resistance values which could make a difference to the outcome.)
Having a stopwatch, clock, or timer in the shot is important, as you mentioned.
[edit, oh I just misread the iPhone bit, that you're using the iPhone as the timer, not the video camera. Never mind, the fixed exposure stuff obviously still applies  :)]

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 20, 2016, 01:22:24 pm

Quote from: samgab on December 20, 2016, 01:17:01 pm

As was also suggested, having two bulbs and two battery holders side by side in the same shot - and starting both at the same time one with and one without a Batteroo sleeve - would save some time, but I was just afraid of detractors claiming that the two bulbs have slightly different resistance values which could make a difference to the outcome.

I would suggest running 6 setups in the one shoot - 3 with Batteroo and 3 without.  You would have to repeat a one-on-one comparison several times anyway to get some statistical significance in the results.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 20, 2016, 01:23:20 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 20, 2016, 01:00:12 pm

Quote from: firewalker on December 20, 2016, 12:30:50 pm

Just use to light bulbs and two battery holder (one with the Batteroo). No editing needed. :D :D :D

I think the full running time might be a bit boring.  Maybe take a 5 second clip from every minute or just speed up playback.

"Time lapse" is when you take 1 picture every few seconds and make it into a movie.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 20, 2016, 01:40:25 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 20, 2016, 01:22:24 pm

Quote from: samgab on December 20, 2016, 01:17:01 pm

As was also suggested, having two bulbs and two battery holders side by side in the same shot - and starting both at the same time one with and one without a Batteroo sleeve - would save some time, but I was just afraid of detractors claiming that the two bulbs have slightly different resistance values which could make a difference to the outcome.

I would suggest running 6 setups in the one shoot - 3 with Batteroo and 3 without.  You would have to repeat a one-on-one comparison several times anyway to get some statistical significance in the results.

That, or even more side-by-side, would of course be the ideal, and would be more scientific, as a sample of one is of dubious efficaciousness. But I guess there is a bit of a sleeve shortage in these early days, and those few that have them will just have to do the best they can with what they have... In time though, there will be more available for better testing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on December 20, 2016, 03:28:14 pm

Are they making these batteryslaves out of hens teeth, I really thought there'd be a collection of them by now.
Especially when you consider that they have to sell them all before the users' first battery change is due. :P

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 20, 2016, 03:40:13 pm

I think a small geared motor incrementing a counter would provide an indication of the Batteroooo's (un)effectiveness in a practical application; the higher the counter value when the motor stops, the greater the energy extracted from the cell. This would be very easy to do and doesn't require timelapse video or subjective assessments of performance and cut-off.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on December 20, 2016, 04:27:24 pm

Quote from: SL4P on December 20, 2016, 05:13:50 am

Don't tell Boob, let's see how long it takes him to spot the spelling mistake.
(We already know BatterPoo reads this site.)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=279154;image)

I before E - except after BatterPoo.

Same as in 'recieve'... But it proves that it is written bij Bob himself :-)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=279242;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: wikktor on December 20, 2016, 04:31:49 pm

Do you know if there is the same circuit for AA and AAA version. I would think so, but has Bob ever confirm this?
Can anyone ask them this on indiegogo?

It would configm, that Dave tests are relevant for both versions.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ysjoelfir on December 20, 2016, 05:22:44 pm

You shouldn't have written that, now Boob knows about the intention of someone asking that and will definitely deny it :O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: alanb on December 20, 2016, 05:39:25 pm

Quote from: samgab on December 20, 2016, 01:40:25 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 20, 2016, 01:22:24 pm

Quote from: samgab on December 20, 2016, 01:17:01 pm

As was also suggested, having two bulbs and two battery holders side by side in the same shot - and starting both at the same time one with and one without a Batteroo sleeve - would save some time, but I was just afraid of detractors claiming that the two bulbs have slightly different resistance values which could make a difference to the outcome.

I would suggest running 6 setups in the one shoot - 3 with Batteroo and 3 without.  You would have to repeat a one-on-one comparison several times anyway to get some statistical significance in the results.

That, or even more side-by-side, would of course be the ideal, and would be more scientific, as a sample of one is of dubious efficaciousness. But I guess there is a bit of a sleeve shortage in these early days, and those few that have them will just have to do the best they can with what they have... In time though, there will be more available for better testing.

What would be even more convincing would be to have the test live on the internet to view for the duration of the test. This would make very boring viewing but that in it self is not a reason not to do it. It would be more interesting than this very long running experiment. http://smp.uq.edu.au/content/pitch-drop-experiment (http://smp.uq.edu.au/content/pitch-drop-experiment)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Towger on December 20, 2016, 10:04:36 pm

...

Quote

EVENT CATEGORY
20 Dec 16 8:57 PM - Clearance delay - BUCHAREST,ROMANIA

Further Details - The shipment is pending completion of customs inspection.
Next Steps - The status will be updated following customs inspection. A DHL representative shall attempt to contact the importer if additional requirements are necessary.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 20, 2016, 10:24:17 pm

Quote from: alanb on December 20, 2016, 05:39:25 pm

What would be even more convincing would be to have the test live on the internet to view for the duration of the test. This would make very boring viewing but that in it self is not a reason not to do it. It would be more interesting than this very long running experiment. http://smp.uq.edu.au/content/pitch-drop-experiment (http://smp.uq.edu.au/content/pitch-drop-experiment)

+1 This. A live stream of the test would be interesting...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 20, 2016, 10:31:01 pm

Quote from: samgab on December 20, 2016, 10:24:17 pm

+1 This. A live stream of the test would be interesting...

Watching a LED flashlight for 10 hours until it fades away would be boring as hell, unless Dave tells some anecdotes, but even this might get boring after some time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on December 20, 2016, 10:40:35 pm

Our Battery-iser man is back. He has received his Batteroos...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XRQXF6IRLA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XRQXF6IRLA)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 20, 2016, 10:55:25 pm

omg, 5 minutes of my live wasted before I stopped the video, listening to someone who never took a look at the discharge curve of a battery, believing what this military prepper lunatic wrote, that when a battery is at 0.9 V, "20% of it's voltage is used"  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 20, 2016, 10:57:07 pm

Quote from: Marcel_X on December 20, 2016, 10:40:35 pm

Our Battery-iser man is back. He has received his Batteroos...

I'm afraid it will kill my brain cells.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 20, 2016, 11:06:12 pm

Uncontrollable!
(http://i.imgur.com/EnxeoPc.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 20, 2016, 11:12:30 pm

Quote from: Marcel_X on December 20, 2016, 10:40:35 pm

Our Battery-iser man is back. He has received his Batteroos...

I'm scared to click. I'm afraid my brain will try to escape.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 20, 2016, 11:26:50 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 20, 2016, 11:06:12 pm

Uncontrollable!
(http://i.imgur.com/EnxeoPc.png)

Fortunately no customs within EU. Looks like my sleeves will arrive on time tomorrow, they just left Italy after a sightseeing trip:

(http://i.imgur.com/lpA59N5.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 20, 2016, 11:26:58 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 20, 2016, 11:06:12 pm

Uncontrollable!
(http://i.imgur.com/EnxeoPc.png)

Ahh man! What, don't they know how many people are waiting with bated breath for these things to arrive at their destination? lol. Maybe they look suspicious in the x-ray scanner?

Edit: spelling.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 20, 2016, 11:27:30 pm

Orchestrated ?.   ::)

We didn't create the monster they did, this epic thread needed a theme tune anyway.   :-+

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icfnRjeaOF0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icfnRjeaOF0)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 20, 2016, 11:30:47 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 20, 2016, 11:12:30 pm

Quote from: Marcel_X on December 20, 2016, 10:40:35 pm

Our Battery-iser man is back. He has received his Batteroos...

I'm scared to click. I'm afraid my brain will try to escape.

I'll summarise to save sanity. He believes that they are essentially joule thieves in fancy packaging, and he's actually correct in that. He thinks there was some giant conspiracy behind the scenes to destroy the Battery-iser startup. And he has a quote from an out-doorsman who says that a joule thief can be useful because products can stop working when cell voltage is anywhere from 0.9 to 1.3V.

He hasn't tried the sleeves out yet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 20, 2016, 11:41:41 pm

Quote from: samgab on December 20, 2016, 11:30:47 pm

I'll summarise to save sanity. He believes that they are essentially joule thieves in fancy packaging, and he's actually correct in that.

Not really. A joule thief has no voltage feedback mechanism or output filtering.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 21, 2016, 12:04:52 am

Quote from: Blocco on December 20, 2016, 03:40:13 pm

I think a small geared motor incrementing a counter would provide an indication of the Batteroooo's (un)effectiveness in a practical application; the higher the counter value when the motor stops, the greater the energy extracted from the cell. This would be very easy to do and doesn't require timelapse video or subjective assessments of performance and cut-off.

I rather like that idea.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 21, 2016, 12:38:40 am

Quote from: Marcel_X on December 20, 2016, 10:40:35 pm

Our Battery-iser man is back. He has received his Batteroos...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XRQXF6IRLA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XRQXF6IRLA)

I sat through it.  Aside from his declared interest in his Confederate flag and its use as a background, he continues with a mix of reasonableness and conspiracy theorist.

That mix really makes it difficult to call him out as having an unreliable opinion.  But he does.  He explicitly states he doesn't know (or care) about what circuitry is involved, yet slams the engineering community as the issues they are trying to point out are beyond his understanding - whether that be his capability or his willingness.

He is also very sensitive to ANYTHING he perceives as critical.  As mentioned before, I have had comments on his previous Youtube effort on the subject removed and I am now blocked - even though I was not attacking him.

There are a couple of statements he makes, which I would like to address.  The first is this:

"There is an orchestrated campaign behind the scenes by a lot of professionals"

Really?

You know this how? .... Actually, scratch that.  You don't know - and you have no evidence, other than a conspiracy theory and a desire for drama.

You don't need to 'orchestrate' anything when the subject is one that a group of similar understanding can make similar, if not identical, observations because of the knowledge that is common to them.

Let's say, for example, that a few Yankees made a comment that all Confederates were losers.  Would the Champions of the Confederacy need to orchestrate a response?  Hell no!  They would react in unison ... no co-ordination necessary!!!


On another point, he makes (extensive) reference to a note from Gray Wolf (a prepper).  I have taken a frame from that and highlighted a couple of numbers.  My annotations make my point...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=279371;image)


Finally, there is this:
"If you catch the naysayers in one lie, the naysayers are probably lying like crazy"

This was in regards to the accusations that Batteroo was a scam.  I would like to point out a couple of things....  Yes, there were some people that claimed it was a scam - but when something looks like a skunk, acts like a skunk and smells like a skunk ... you can't really blame them for calling it a skunk.  Others were less condemning, but were sceptical - and you can't really blame them.  The repeating delays, absolute lack of information and sparse communication really gave good cause for unease.

So, calling that a "lie" is really a desperate claim.  I can only be made to try and discredit a group from any other things they say - a fact clearly indicated in the second half of that statement.  That is the action of someone who does not want an objective assessment of the product.  Second-guessing Batteroo's invisible manufacturing and distribution processes and getting it wrong has nothing to do with the product itself.

Yes, some people thought it was an outright scam ... and they were wrong.  Congratulations.  You can jump on their heads about that.

Let's just check out the product itself.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 21, 2016, 12:48:32 am

That was more than enough effort for that clip.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BradC on December 21, 2016, 02:14:19 am

I've just found the perfect application for these devices :
http://sundown.me.uk/technology/mercedes-aa-class.mp4 (http://sundown.me.uk/technology/mercedes-aa-class.mp4)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 21, 2016, 02:36:23 am

Called it...

Quote from: Brumby on November 23, 2016, 04:52:56 am

Perhaps my biggest concern is that we may spend countless hours debating the "Why's" and "Wherefore's" of a photo such as this - and that the credibility of the Engineering fraternity as a whole is going to be defined by these types of discussion.

By casting a few morsels before the ravenous hoard and letting them go into a feeding frenzy, the apparent desperation to 'attack' is going to become the definitive measure of the Engineering position - at least as far as the public perception is concerned.  And that is all the Batteroo boys would need to do....


It may well be that they do have a product and, if so, we are already making it easier for them to release it...

1. Delays.
Once the product is actually released, then the delays will be summarily forgotten by those who have been waiting - they will be so happy to have received them!  The response from the 'faithful' will be something along the lines of "Oh, you poor little engineers.  You said there was no product - but here it is!".  Bob and Co might come up with a couple of more 'reasons' for the delays, but it won't matter.  The punters couldn't care less - they will have their sleeves.

2. Function.
Engineers (and others) have been critical of the fact that the Batteroo sleeves will not perform as (originally) advertised - but the perception has been that the Engineers are saying they will not work at all.  This is clealry an incorrect perception that only needs a sleeve to do what is expected by the customer for 60 seconds (or even less) for the howls of denigration to flow like a Tsunami.  Batteroo has won!  Forget the fact that it might cease to do so in the second minute.

Engineers have also been apprehensive about higher current capability from the beginning, but since the performance claims have been dialled back, there is less strength in that argument.


These functional failings may well have been problems that Batteroo have been trying to address, but without success - something which would be no surprise to us.  However, to successfully release the product, then they would need to do two things - manage expectations and discredit the critics.

Managing expectations has been easy.  They have simply adjusted their claims to something more modest - without saying the Engineering critics were right.  The average punter will either not have noticed and/or will see that as something they feel is more 'real'.  Remember, even some of the fanboys considered the Batteriser worth having even if it was only a quarter as good.

(Guess who was one of them.)

Quote

Discrediting the critics is going to be really simple.  The more we carry on about a range of issues, the more high profile the banner we are holding.  All Bob has to do is produce a product that does something and we will have given him the perfect distraction.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: orion242 on December 21, 2016, 03:47:24 am

https://youtu.be/1XRQXF6IRLA?t=6m16s

"so you know free energy well.  you know what?  the guy knows what he is doing ok"

I think that sums this up well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on December 21, 2016, 03:54:44 am

The video camera dave got on Mailbag in video #592 uses 3xAAA batteries. If Dave still has it, it might be a good test for the sleeves he's got in the mail. I won't be surprised, however, if Dave has thrown that POS in the garbage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 21, 2016, 04:18:08 am

Quickest test is to go buy 2 identical wall clocks, along with a pack of AAA cells to act as test cells. Identical cells from the same batch, most likely to be matched. then a pair of resistive loads to dump the energy a lot faster than the clocks will. Then simply have one with and one without Batteriser, arrange with a mirror to show the back of the units with the wiring and the load and batterisers in some AAA holders, and put a webcam in front along with the timelapse camera, and leave till one or the other stops ticking.

Easiest, and with the webcam as independant observer you can see when each of the clocks stops. Set them to 12H00 at the start, and simply use elapsed time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 21, 2016, 08:41:21 am

Quote from: SeanB on December 21, 2016, 04:18:08 am

Quickest test is to go buy 2 identical wall clocks, along with a pack of AAA cells to act as test cells. Identical cells from the same batch, most likely to be matched. then a pair of resistive loads to dump the energy a lot faster than the clocks will. Then simply have one with and one without Batteriser, arrange with a mirror to show the back of the units with the wiring and the load and batterisers in some AAA holders, and put a webcam in front along with the timelapse camera, and leave till one or the other stops ticking.

Easiest, and with the webcam as independant observer you can see when each of the clocks stops. Set them to 12H00 at the start, and simply use elapsed time.

It's clever, but Batteroo would argue its product is designed to be used on real world products, not lab experiments.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 21, 2016, 08:50:06 am

My Batterisers are still held up in Bucharest. Definitely won't make it before xmas now, and I'll be away in the new year.
It's all up to Frank now.

And still others I know who ordered them have not gotten tracking details yet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on December 21, 2016, 08:58:01 am

Quote from: Marcel_X on December 20, 2016, 10:40:35 pm

Our Battery-iser man is back. He has received his Batteroos...

Jeez, listen to his slip of the tongue at 6:23, "reviving...."

https://youtu.be/1XRQXF6IRLA?t=385 (https://youtu.be/1XRQXF6IRLA?t=385)


Say no more....  :scared:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 21, 2016, 09:20:06 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 21, 2016, 12:04:52 am

Quote from: Blocco on December 20, 2016, 03:40:13 pm

I think a small geared motor incrementing a counter would provide an indication of the Batteroooo's (un)effectiveness in a practical application; the higher the counter value when the motor stops, the greater the energy extracted from the cell. This would be very easy to do and doesn't require timelapse video or subjective assessments of performance and cut-off.

I rather like that idea.

For testing passive loads, you could use a 1.5v powered wall-clock as a quick & easy duration timer

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 21, 2016, 11:27:03 am

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 21, 2016, 09:20:06 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 21, 2016, 12:04:52 am

Quote from: Blocco on December 20, 2016, 03:40:13 pm

I think a small geared motor incrementing a counter would provide an indication of the Batteroooo's (un)effectiveness in a practical application; the higher the counter value when the motor stops, the greater the energy extracted from the cell. This would be very easy to do and doesn't require timelapse video or subjective assessments of performance and cut-off.

I rather like that idea.

For testing passive loads, you could use a 1.5v powered wall-clock as a quick & easy duration timer

Big Clive basically used this method, with a small elaboration, for comparing AA cell capacity.

https://youtu.be/-I4liMndTsI

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: razvanme on December 21, 2016, 11:54:20 am

Another turn of events. It reached Frank, he now needs to go after them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: akohler on December 21, 2016, 01:22:08 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 21, 2016, 08:50:06 am

My Batterisers are still held up in Bucharest.

Gee, that excuse sounds familiar.  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on December 21, 2016, 01:34:59 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 20, 2016, 09:25:40 am

Any testing of Probes would need to count the total number of claps. Maybe you could sit him next to a microphone then record a wav file and calculate the RMS volume.

The proper measure would be the area under the sound pressure versus time curve, better known as the 'parent annoyance factor' of a noise making toy. At this gift giving time of year it behoves one to take into account the feelings of one's siblings and siblings-in-law when choosing toys for one's nieces and nephews, if you get my drift.  >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Towger on December 21, 2016, 03:41:21 pm

Off we go again and ETA is still Friday..

Quote

EVENT CATEGORY
21 Dec 16 4:54 PM - Clearance processing complete - BUCHAREST,ROMANIA

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on December 21, 2016, 06:30:36 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 20, 2016, 11:41:41 pm

Quote from: samgab on December 20, 2016, 11:30:47 pm

I'll summarise to save sanity. He believes that they are essentially joule thieves in fancy packaging, and he's actually correct in that.

Not really. A joule thief has no voltage feedback mechanism or output filtering.

Exactly this. The Joule Thief is a specific circuit design with the primary goal of lighting an LED from an almost dead cell with the fewest possible components.  It also features no voltage regulation, no accurate current limiting, no thermal protection, poor efficiency and  huge ripple.  You could not use a Joule Thief in a batteriser design without significantly changing the circuit, by which time it's no longer a Joule Thief.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 21, 2016, 09:35:02 pm

My units shipped!
Yes, I can now reveal that I was a backer  ;D
A very early backer, so they obviously didn't care about shipping to those people first.
And just like others have said, my tracking number does not work. It's a USPS number that draws a blank, and the email link goes to Fedex.
(http://i.imgur.com/ihNTQtK.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on December 21, 2016, 09:44:57 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 21, 2016, 09:35:02 pm

My units shipped!
Yes, I can now reveal that I was a backer  ;D
A very early backer, so they obviously didn't care about shipping to those people first.
And just like others have said, my tracking number does not work. It's a USPS number that draws a blank, and the email link goes to Fedex.
(http://i.imgur.com/ihNTQtK.png)

you dirty dawg!

WOOHOO!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 21, 2016, 09:48:47 pm

Quote from: Towger on December 21, 2016, 03:41:21 pm

Off we go again and ETA is still Friday..

Quote

EVENT CATEGORY
21 Dec 16 4:54 PM - Clearance processing complete - BUCHAREST,ROMANIA

I doubt they will make it Friday, it's Thursday morning here now and it's a 24hr+ flight from Bucharest.
But even if they do I doubt I'll be able to do anything with them, maybe just a start a test, but certainly not a produce a video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 21, 2016, 09:58:31 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 21, 2016, 09:48:47 pm

Quote from: Towger on December 21, 2016, 03:41:21 pm

Off we go again and ETA is still Friday..

Quote

EVENT CATEGORY
21 Dec 16 4:54 PM - Clearance processing complete - BUCHAREST,ROMANIA

I doubt they will make it Friday, it's Thursday morning here now and it's a 24hr+ flight from Bucharest.
But even if they do I doubt I'll be able to do anything with them, maybe just a start a test, but certainly not a produce a video.

Well, it looks like in this crazy world we'll have at least ONE thing to look forward to in 2017...  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on December 21, 2016, 10:13:29 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 21, 2016, 09:48:47 pm

Quote from: Towger on December 21, 2016, 03:41:21 pm

Off we go again and ETA is still Friday..

Quote

EVENT CATEGORY
21 Dec 16 4:54 PM - Clearance processing complete - BUCHAREST,ROMANIA

I doubt they will make it Friday, it's Thursday morning here now and it's a 24hr+ flight from Bucharest.
But even if they do I doubt I'll be able to do anything with them, maybe just a start a test, but certainly not a produce a video.

Well if they do arrive in Sydney before you head off on holidays and you want to hand them off to someone local, then I'd be happy to run some qualification tests similar to FrankBuss.  I have the equipment.
Not interested in doing a video though  :scared:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 21, 2016, 10:22:20 pm

Just a few minutes video of the unboxing will do.  It can be our Christmas present.

It might sound like a bit of an OTT effort - but considering all the "naysayers" comments on this thread about there never being a product and it was all a scam, I would consider it not unreasonable to address these directly and explain where they were founded (in the epic communications fail that defined Batteroo).

I believe there is great value in clearing the air on this.  Say whatever needs to be said to separate any and all discussion on the existence of the Batteroo sleeves from that regarding the claims and performance.

We now know that a product exists - and, in truth, all the huffing and puffing about that can be summarily dispensed with when all is said and done.  The corporate/marketing/communication fail is no longer relevant to what really matters.

What does matter now is the performance of the product - the engineering.  It is time to test ... and those tests will come .......

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Towger on December 21, 2016, 10:37:59 pm

[quote author=EEVblog
I doubt they will make it Friday, it's Thursday morning here now and it's a 24hr+ flight from Bucharest.
But even if they do I doubt I'll be able to do anything with them, maybe just a start a test, but certainly not a produce a video.
[/quote]

Close of business on Friday, which should be possible on a normal weekend...

Don't suppose it would go down well with Nicole, if you were to cancel your holidays to test some batteries for your 'Internet friends'. [emoji6]

I certainly looks as if a new backer has come along and money is no object. It is costing them fortune to post from the States, in those oversized boxes.  The wonder know as China Post seems to have escaped the brothers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on December 22, 2016, 12:37:56 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 21, 2016, 09:35:02 pm

My units shipped!
Yes, I can now reveal that I was a backer  ;D

hehehe you'll probably be a Batteriser reseller before you know it, I was thinking you could have blue sleeves instead of red .... no actually scratch that thought.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on December 22, 2016, 01:43:02 am

Quote from: Cerebus on December 21, 2016, 01:34:59 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 20, 2016, 09:25:40 am

Any testing of Probes would need to count the total number of claps. Maybe you could sit him next to a microphone then record a wav file and calculate the RMS volume.

The proper measure would be the area under the sound pressure versus time curve, better known as the 'parent annoyance factor' of a noise making toy. At this gift giving time of year it behoves one to take into account the feelings of one's siblings and siblings-in-law when choosing toys for one's nieces and nephews, if you get my drift.  >:D

Or "the amount of liquor/coffee/cigarettes/pick your poison consumed to nullify the annoyance" meter  :-DD :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on December 22, 2016, 03:37:56 am

Question for Dave,
Given the popularity of this topic (you have about 400,000 views on the 4 videos related to it), and the fact you have already been quoted by real news places (and directly disparaged by the creator), might it be worth it to get a video out quickly showing the actual analysis before others beat you to it?  Strikes me that would get a lot of views and attention now, but might not be that interesting once the inevitable flop is shown by a bunch of people and this whole thing fades away....  Might need to take the electronic load with you on vacation...  Christmas happens every year. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: QuantumLogic on December 22, 2016, 04:00:54 am

Quote from: Smokey on December 22, 2016, 03:37:56 am

...Christmas happens every year.

And a wife's scorn lasts forever.  Family first.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 22, 2016, 04:27:57 am

Yes - family is more important.

Besides, with the level of interest, I can see Dave wanting to be very considered in the videos he presents.  (Yes, I can see more than one).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 22, 2016, 04:36:44 am

Quote from: Smokey on December 22, 2016, 03:37:56 am

Question for Dave,
Given the popularity of this topic (you have about 400,000 views on the 4 videos related to it), and the fact you have already been quoted by real news places (and directly disparaged by the creator), might it be worth it to get a video out quickly showing the actual analysis before others beat you to it? 

The point is moot, I don't have Batterisers yet.
I can't get out of planned holidays or xmas new years family event, not that I want to.
And you can't shoot, edit and release any decent technical videos whilst on holidays.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 22, 2016, 05:05:00 am

Probably not a bad thing really, I very much doubt that anybody here has the right to put you under the pump and I think most would rather you spent more relaxed time pondering over your final approach, the time out may in fact be a good thing so that when you get back from a break you could then nail these things down properly the first time around. 

Nothing worse than looking back on something you've previously done with the then realisation that it could have been done this, that or the other way, hindsight changes nothing in the past.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on December 22, 2016, 05:39:43 am

Dave, maybe it's worth while making this Batteriser video (when it does happen) a bigger-than-usual video. Are there any Aussie EE's that could join you in that episode? Maybe someone like Doug Ford?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: razvanme on December 22, 2016, 06:50:31 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 22, 2016, 04:36:44 am

Quote from: Smokey on December 22, 2016, 03:37:56 am

Question for Dave,
Given the popularity of this topic (you have about 400,000 views on the 4 videos related to it), and the fact you have already been quoted by real news places (and directly disparaged by the creator), might it be worth it to get a video out quickly showing the actual analysis before others beat you to it? 

The point is moot, I don't have Batterisers yet.
I can't get out of planned holidays or xmas new years family event, not that I want to.
And you can't shoot, edit and release any decent technical videos whilst on holidays.

If they reach you by the time you leave, you can do real life tests :D. Avoid using them in a camera, you don't want it to suddenly shut down when you want to take that perfect family picture.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on December 22, 2016, 12:59:21 pm

Quote from: EEVblog link=topic=48950.msg1096126#msg1096126

I doubt they will make it Friday, it's Thursday morning here now and it's a 24hr+ flight from Bucharest.

Santa can do it :)
or DHL :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Towger on December 22, 2016, 01:26:02 pm

Quote from: f4eru on December 22, 2016, 12:59:21 pm

Santa can do it :)
or DHL :)

They have left Germany now and the ETA to the EEVBlog Corporate HQ is still end of business on Friday.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on December 22, 2016, 02:18:16 pm

I had a feeling Dave was one of the backers! It was quite obvious, actually: Dave had to have one of those so he could do real tests and experiments with them. Only then the debunking would go from theoretical to practical.

Quote from: QuantumLogic on December 22, 2016, 04:00:54 am

And a wife's scorn lasts forever.  Family first.

Truer words were never spoken!

Dave, just enjoy the Holidays with your lovely family and put this matter aside for a few days. It won't hurt anyone, and besides we all will have something to look for in 2017. We've waited this long and we certainly can wait a few days more. Other folks, like a certain Bob and someone whose name we shan't mention, will certainly appreciate the wait!

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 22, 2016, 03:58:26 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on December 22, 2016, 02:18:16 pm

We've waited this long and we certainly can wait a few days more. Other folks, like a certain Bob and someone whose name we shan't mention, will certainly appreciate the wait!

true, Dave needs to also have a holiday, see what the family looks like in the daylight, treat the woman he loves to some undivided attention and indulgence, and urn off his phone for at least 2 days with her, the family and nothing else to distract. if he is enjoying the lovely country he lives in as well, and is seeing places, without being glued to a camera viewfinder as well, so much more the better.

I should do the same, I hear the local band in the distance, at least the Scottish lethal weapon they have there. Think I will go for a quick walk and enjoy the afternoon.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on December 22, 2016, 04:49:41 pm

The man in Darwin continues...

https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/posts/1301948409871526 (https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/posts/1301948409871526)


and an unboxing from someone who might do testing and followup

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYkwjAyr-1w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYkwjAyr-1w)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 22, 2016, 05:09:44 pm

Thanks Frank! Pretty damn conclusive with a simple real world test.  :-+ :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CJay on December 22, 2016, 06:04:25 pm

I rarely, if ever do facebook (it's a game login thing) but I did today...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 22, 2016, 06:38:36 pm

A big thanks to Frank Buss for performing the very first tests on the Batteroo! 

Think of the headlines!!!

Batteroo guilty as charged with exaggerated battery performance claims

Batteriser campaign runs out of juice

Batteriser falls flat on 800% claims

Battery boosting campaign runs out on backers

Crowdfunding supporters discover their battery booster was free of charge all along

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 22, 2016, 09:14:38 pm

I hereby propose a new forum emoticon based on the picture below which could be used to relay either of the following messages:

1. This thread just keeps going around in circles.
2. This thread is a complete and utter train wreck.
3. Your technical theory is making all of us dizzy.
4. I've had enough and am getting off at the next stop.

 :) :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on December 22, 2016, 09:38:01 pm

can someone link me to franks video?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FireBird on December 22, 2016, 09:42:33 pm

His post is over here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1096588/#msg1096588).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on December 22, 2016, 10:31:23 pm

Quote from: QuantumLogic on December 22, 2016, 04:00:54 am

Quote from: Smokey on December 22, 2016, 03:37:56 am

...Christmas happens every year.

And a wife's scorn lasts forever.  Family first.

A big fat check for a super popular video and a bump in forum traffic buys the wife a lot of new shoes.  Just saying...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 22, 2016, 11:02:09 pm

It looks like their new top-dollar marketing adviser has some tough challenges ahead  :horse:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 22, 2016, 11:56:59 pm

Considering the broad interest this thread seems to have captured - I thought the following might be appropriate to throw in....

For the casual reader, it should be pointed out that there are two very distinct classes of tests that can be performed on the Batteroo sleeves.

The first is the characterisation of the sleeves themselves. 
This is where power is provided by sources such as laboratory power supplies and dummy loads are used to draw power, just like a keyboard, clock or toy train would.  With these types of tests, there are several benefits:
 - there is great control over the parameters available, so you can set very specific conditions and you can see how the Batteroo sleeve performs on each one.  You can have input voltage levels like 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, etc. or 1.00, 1.01, 1.02, 1.03, etc.  It just depends on how detailed you want your data.
 - these conditions are stable.  You might want to see exactly how a sleeve performs at a point where a battery is dropping very quickly.  With lab equipment, you can set up any number of such points and keep them stable while the measurements are taken and recorded
 - these conditions are repeatable.  You can do them any number of times and there should be no variation.  If there is, you will need to look at your setup to work out why.  Using batteries for this type of testing makes repeatability with certainty practically impossible.
 - because this type of testing is stable and repeatable, you can test a number of different sleeves to see how consistently they perform when compared to each other.
 - lab style testing allows very precise measurements to be taken - particularly in the proper use of the measuring equipment, so that voltage drops along wires and through meters are not being included in the measurements being taken.  (These can be quite significant, especially at 1.5V battery levels, so avoiding this trap for young players is vital for accurate results.)

All of this will end up with a mass of numbers.  Numbers which can be used to create graphs and charts and all sorts of observations that electrical engineers drool over.  They do this because these graphs will show exactly what the Batteroo sleeves are capable of.  They will be able to tell you if the sleeve can deliver enough current to power a particular toy train.  They will be able to answer a multitude of questions from those tests about how the Batteroo sleeve will perform in various situations.

As much as people might go "Well, goody for you."  the fact is, that if a chart generated from testing a sleeve says it won't work in 'X' conditions ... then it won't work - and if it will, it will.  Just remember, these are the same engineering practices that put man on the moon, a laser in your pocket and the internet you are looking at right now.


The second class of testing is in real world applications.
Yes!  This is what it's all about - and you might be tempted to say "Why carry on with all that rubbish you just talked about when this is what matters?"  That is an understandable view - but I like to think of it like this:  All the characterisation testing produces a kind of a map of the terrain and in a real world application, you are going to follow a path across that terrain.  That is often very helpful in planning the trip and assessing the problems if something went wrong on the trip.

The big challenge, however, is that with this kind of testing - especially for battery powered equipment - is that there is a big unknown ... the actual condition of each battery.  Even brand new out of the pack, there is no guarantee they will all be the same.  Fortunately, they do tend to be fairly consistent - but even then, if we get a weirdly different test result somewhere along the line, we cannot exclude the battery from suspicion.  This challenge is made even more complex because we can be talking about batteries that have already served for a time, making their condition even more of a mystery.

While some real world tests that have been carefuly constructed (to provide as many consistent parameters as possible) will be able to produce some very useful results, they will not cover each and every possible situation.  That will take tens of thousands of tests out among the public to start painting such a picture.

But even then, test results may not be really accurate if, for example, a critical parameter was not noted during these tests.  "What sort of parameter?!!" you might demand.  I'll offer this as one: Temperature.  It has a rather significant effect on battery chemistry - as I'm sure a lot of people already know.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on December 23, 2016, 01:18:38 am

The number of these things out in the wild must be extremely low.

Someone's asking an awkward question.
https://twitter.com/ueberfliegr/status/812051651854934016

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 23, 2016, 02:26:02 am

Quote from: StillTrying on December 23, 2016, 01:18:38 am

The number of these things out in the wild must be extremely low.

Someone's asking an awkward question.
https://twitter.com/ueberfliegr/status/812051651854934016

To an EE, that's just a question - and given enough information, an EE will be able to answer it.  Part of that information is the "map of the terrain" I mentioned above.  Another is the path through that terrain that this test would represent.

The question only becomes potentially awkward when it's put to Batteroo.  They may have an answer for that particular one.  (I can already think of one that will probably satisfy the fan-boys.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on December 23, 2016, 03:44:06 am

"The question only becomes potentially awkward when it's put to Batteroo.  They may have an answer for that particular one.  (I can already think of one that will probably satisfy the fan-boys.)"

Wrong type of sleaves on the line.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on December 23, 2016, 08:07:20 am

I ordered a pack on their website a month ago just to see what they do, paying with PayPal and figuring that it will be easy to refund in the 90 day paypal buyers guarantee when they inevitably slip on their non-stop delays, but to my surprise they claim to have shipped my package yesterday. So kickstarter backers aren't even necessarily getting theirs before website purchasers!

Quote from: EEVblog on December 21, 2016, 09:35:02 pm

And just like others have said, my tracking number does not work. It's a USPS number that draws a blank, and the email link goes to Fedex.

If your tracking number ends with "SE" and not "US", then it's not USPS, but a PostNord (Sweden Post) tracking number. Maybe try http://www.postnord.se/en/Personal/Pages/personal.aspx (http://www.postnord.se/en/Personal/Pages/personal.aspx)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 23, 2016, 12:21:53 pm

Quote from: kalleboo on December 23, 2016, 08:07:20 am

I ordered a pack on their website a month ago just to see what they do, paying with PayPal and figuring that it will be easy to refund in the 90 day paypal buyers guarantee when they inevitably slip on their non-stop delays, but to my surprise they claim to have shipped my package yesterday. So kickstarter backers aren't even necessarily getting theirs before website purchasers!

Batteroo knows exactly how to displease backers really good. :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on December 23, 2016, 03:37:41 pm

Quote from: kalleboo on December 23, 2016, 08:07:20 am

I ordered a pack on their website a month ago just to see what they do, paying with PayPal and figuring that it will be easy to refund in the 90 day paypal buyers guarantee when they inevitably slip on their non-stop delays, but to my surprise they claim to have shipped my package yesterday. So kickstarter backers aren't even necessarily getting theirs before website purchasers!

Quote from: EEVblog on December 21, 2016, 09:35:02 pm

And just like others have said, my tracking number does not work. It's a USPS number that draws a blank, and the email link goes to Fedex.

If your tracking number ends with "SE" and not "US", then it's not USPS, but a PostNord (Sweden Post) tracking number. Maybe try http://www.postnord.se/en/Personal/Pages/personal.aspx (http://www.postnord.se/en/Personal/Pages/personal.aspx)

Oooo, I just re-checked my email and an order that I placed on 22 Dec 2015 (yes, a year ago), was allegedly shipped on 21 Dec 2016. The tracking number's not in the system yet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 23, 2016, 04:21:59 pm

Quote from: quad on December 22, 2016, 06:38:36 pm

A big thanks to Frank Buss for performing the very first tests on the Batteroo! 

Think of the headlines!!!

Batteroo guilty as charged with exaggerated battery performance claims

Batteriser campaign runs out of juice

Batteriser falls flat on 800% claims

Battery boosting campaign runs out on backers

Crowdfunding supporters discover their battery booster was free of charge all along

Lol, thanks, my pleasure. Looks like Batteroo didn't see my video so far, no dislikes and already one of my videos with the most likes, only topped by my Tetris video (http://tinyurl.com/7j4bmm9), with the awesome C64 music (not the annoying tune you might know for Tetris). Happy Holidays!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: snik on December 23, 2016, 05:00:41 pm

Quote

Lol, thanks, my pleasure. Looks like Batteroo didn't see my video so far, no dislikes and already one of my videos with the most likes, only topped by my Tetris video (http://tinyurl.com/7j4bmm9), with the awesome C64 music (not the annoying tune you might know for Tetris). Happy Holidays!

Here is the answer from Revive Batter(oo)ies with Video  ;) :

https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/posts/1303252479741119 (https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/posts/1303252479741119)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 23, 2016, 05:09:33 pm

Frank, I suspect a certain someone has found your video - it has one dislike now

One point, could I suggest you and anyone doing test videos to add both the word "Batteroo" and the word "Batteriser" somewhere in the searchable text, the title or description to get that extra search traffic

You are currently #1 video for "batteroo test" (private browser)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CJay on December 23, 2016, 05:50:51 pm

Even Oz's prospective distributor has verified our tests as accurate :)

https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/posts/1303252479741119 (https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/posts/1303252479741119)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 23, 2016, 06:11:37 pm

Quote from: snik on December 23, 2016, 05:00:41 pm

Here is the answer from Revive Batter(oo)ies with Video  ;) :

https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/posts/1303252479741119 (https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/posts/1303252479741119)

Video link: https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/videos/1303234933076207/ (https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/videos/1303234933076207/)

Perhaps the batteries tested were AA and not AAA? The AA form factor could perform better?

Assuming it was a fair test setup -- which I think it was*
*Edit: It has been pointed out that the test should be repeated, with the Batteroo switched over to the other train to account for slight differences that may affect performance (such as friction).
It should also be conducted a few times to allow for differences in batteries (even when they're from the same packet). 

His results in condensed form:

Bare cell: Total Runtime - 7 hours 55 minutes
With Batteriser: Total Runtime 4 hours 55 minutes

With Batteriser it ran faster but for a shorter period of time

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 23, 2016, 06:13:30 pm

Quote from: snik on December 23, 2016, 05:00:41 pm

Here is the answer from Revive Batter(oo)ies with Video  ;) :

https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/posts/1303252479741119 (https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/posts/1303252479741119)

Thanks, I commented it, and my photo he posted earlier. Amazing how fast Wayne could setup and execute an apparently carefully designed and documented test, with lap counter and speed measurement, if you compare this to his first flashlight tests.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 23, 2016, 06:27:58 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 23, 2016, 06:13:30 pm

Thanks, I commented it, and my photo he posted earlier. Amazing how fast Wayne could setup and execute an apparently carefully designed and documented test, with lap counter and speed measurement, if you compare this to his first flashlight tests.

In his post, he says, "The test was set up by a reliable and honest person with experience in electronics."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on December 23, 2016, 06:29:06 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 23, 2016, 06:13:30 pm

Amazing how fast Wayne could setup and execute an apparently carefully designed and documented test

He doesn't say he did. It was done by an unnamed professional engineer. My guess would be employed by batteroo and they have been sitting on it because 7 to 4 hour battery life reduction is too embarrassing even with the batterooed train running faster.

I'm sure they can find other cheap junk products that ought but don't have regulators which show improved performance with batteroos, but, why spend money on batteroos and have the hassle of using them when you could spend it on something less junk in the first place?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 23, 2016, 06:45:04 pm

Quote from: quad on December 23, 2016, 06:27:58 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 23, 2016, 06:13:30 pm

Thanks, I commented it, and my photo he posted earlier. Amazing how fast Wayne could setup and execute an apparently carefully designed and documented test, with lap counter and speed measurement, if you compare this to his first flashlight tests.

In his post, he says, "The test was set up by a reliable and honest person with experience in electronics."

Right, I missed this. Why don't they just say that Batteroo did the test? And probably Dave should implement the lap counter, they complaint this about my video. Still, I think the results are pretty obvious. Picking out one specific point in time in the video doesn't demonstrate much. And they should post their full test setup they were using, like the train model, so that it can be verified independently, the usual scientific method.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Towger on December 23, 2016, 06:47:50 pm

Well DHL has let us down. they missed their own ETA and the current status is "The Estimated Delivery Date is currently unavailable. Please try again later."

Oh well, at least they have arrived down under.

Quote

Saturday, December 24, 2016   Location   Time   Piece
18   Customs status updated   SYDNEY - AUSTRALIA   00:22

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 23, 2016, 07:16:07 pm

Quote from: quad on December 23, 2016, 06:27:58 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 23, 2016, 06:13:30 pm

Thanks, I commented it, and my photo he posted earlier. Amazing how fast Wayne could setup and execute an apparently carefully designed and documented test, with lap counter and speed measurement, if you compare this to his first flashlight tests.

In his post, he says, "The test was set up by a reliable and honest person with experience in electronics."

And another "busted" for Batteroo's claims. The only benefit is having 1.5V until the battery dies, which is useful when performance of a simple load, e.g. a motor, matters. But with the drawback of missing an indication about the battery going flat. Actually, this renders the Batteroo sleeves also for the Aussie distributor's toys useless, because they might stop vibrating just at the right moment >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: razvanme on December 23, 2016, 07:27:31 pm

We need to wait for the first Apple keyboard test. I think they can`t do / say anything about that. Keeping a key pressed and counting them with a small program. That should discharge the batteries a lot faster maybe 24hr`s? The number of key`s pressed + the battery indicator should clarify the situation with their own example.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 23, 2016, 07:55:54 pm

I'm working on small python script now that will count the number of keystrokes.

If I do one for Linux, Windows and Mac we can test all our wireless keyboards.

Any way to get a ball park estimate how long a wireless keyboard will last under these circumstances? < 12 hours? 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on December 23, 2016, 08:06:00 pm

Quote from: quad on December 23, 2016, 06:27:58 pm

In his post, he says, "The test was set up by a reliable and honest person with experience in electronics."

I think it's Dave  :box:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on December 23, 2016, 08:09:27 pm

I guess that unnamed professional engineer must be from USA (or Liberia or Burma) since he is so used to the English system and logging speed using "feet per minute".

https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/posts/1303252479741119 (https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/posts/1303252479741119) chooses not to disclose the comparison of the total number of laps, so we may have some holiday math fun.

1). Their data:
         no_sleeve  with_sleeve
time  speed        speed           delta_laps
(h)    (ft/m)       (ft/m)
0       43.3         43.3               0
1/3    37.1-       37.1               0+
1       32.5         37.1              31
2       28.9         37.1              100
4       26.0         32.5              307
5       23.6         32.5              409
8       15.3         0

2). The track length:
Using the data for hour 5 and 4, duration=60m, delta_speed=32.5-0.5*(26+23.6)=7.7 ft/m, delta_laps=102.

track_length = 7.7*60/102 = 4.53 ft

3). extra laps during the last 3 hours for the test w/o the sleeve:
Using data for hour 8 and 5, duration=180m, 23.6 >= speed >=15.3, track_length=4.53 ft

    938 >= extra_laps >= 608

The actual number can be estimated to be the middle,
   extra_laps ~= 773 laps.

4). Overall, test without sleeve runs 363 more laps:
At the 5th hour when test2 stopped, it did 409 more laps, but after test2 stopped test1 did ~773 more laps. Therefore, overall, test without sleeve runs 363 more laps than with a sleeve.

Similarly, we can estimate the total number of laps:

test without sleeve  ~= 2700 laps.
test with     sleeve  ~= 2300  laps.

If only they are willing to release their full video, we can see the real numbers and compare.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 23, 2016, 08:37:49 pm

Quote from: madires on December 23, 2016, 07:16:07 pm

The only benefit is having 1.5V until the battery dies, which is useful when performance of a simple load, e.g. a motor, matters. But with the drawback of missing an indication about the battery going flat.

And even this might be not the case. I measured the output voltage for different input voltages with different loads, see the second diagram here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1096221/#msg1096221). But it is interesting that the output voltage is pretty stable, regardless of the current, but still much less thant 1.5V. As mentioned by amyk, the reason might be that battery indicators still work.

I still think they have a product that might be useful for some niche applications. They should just post all data so that the user can decide. Couldn't find this output voltage behaviour on their FAQ or production description page. They might be even be able to sell their chip without the sleeve with a good datasheet.

Quote from: onlooker on December 23, 2016, 08:09:27 pm

https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/posts/1303252479741119 (https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/posts/1303252479741119) chooses not to disclose the comparison of the total number of laps, so we may have some holiday math fun.

You can find this method in many postings, videos and articles from Batteroo. They disclose what looks good for their product and don't tell you what doesn't look good. Did you notice that they didn't tell anything about the MP3 player test results I posted (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1096671/#msg1096671)? You can see all results in detail of the product tests so far here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18K9c2YAT0d0QABGYGpzItbvDcgfAQCRUtloEzzfXADU/edit?usp=sharing). You can ask Dave if you want to add your result, if you have some proof for it, like a video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: richnormand on December 23, 2016, 08:41:58 pm

With several comments on clocks, keyboards and toys some tests could take a while or need datalogging in a compact form.
Has anyone though of using these units from Lascar. (Disclaimer: I am not associated with them but have used their products in the past to monitor car batteries.)
https://www.lascarelectronics.com/data-loggers/voltage-current/ (https://www.lascarelectronics.com/data-loggers/voltage-current/)

The data probing can be set from seconds, minutes, hours up to months. I could see one to monitor battery voltage, sleeve output voltage and current delivered.
It would be then easy to compute energy, power, etc... over very long sampling periods. If the instrument being monitored is mobile the Lascar could just be taped on it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 23, 2016, 09:33:57 pm

Here is a quick keystroke counter script I wrote for Linux: http://pastebin.com/s8YxSpqz (http://pastebin.com/s8YxSpqz)

Fire up the script and weigh down a key on your wireless keyboard, and wait. How long? I have no idea

Next up: Windows version

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: trophosphere on December 23, 2016, 09:55:48 pm

@quad

Is there any difference between using the script you wrote and using something like Microsoft Word (https://support.office.com/en-us/article/Show-the-word-count-and-more-825d4ccd-082b-4578-a621-66dfe27cdf48) to show the letter count? Even Notpad++ (https://www.davidtan.org/notepad-how-to-count-words/) has a letter counter which should be sufficient unless I am missing something.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 23, 2016, 10:24:24 pm

Quote from: trophosphere on December 23, 2016, 09:55:48 pm

@quad

Is there any difference between using the script you wrote and using something like Microsoft Word (https://support.office.com/en-us/article/Show-the-word-count-and-more-825d4ccd-082b-4578-a621-66dfe27cdf48) to show the letter count? Even Notpad++ (https://www.davidtan.org/notepad-how-to-count-words/) has a letter counter which should be sufficient unless I am missing something.

I'm not sure how long the test will go on for, and how many characters those programs will take without risk of lagging out and crashing... and the specs of the test computer i.e. RAM. I've dealt with some large text files, some text editors just don't handle them well even with 16GB of RAM and a fairly modern i7 processor. Sublime Text is very good with large files.

Also the number of characters will depend on your system's keyboard repeat delay/rate settings.

The python script doesn't store the characters, just the count.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: trophosphere on December 23, 2016, 10:33:11 pm

Quote from: quad on December 23, 2016, 10:24:24 pm

I'm not sure how long the test will go on for, and how many characters those programs will take without risk of lagging out and crashing... and the specs of the test computer i.e. RAM. I've dealt with some large text files, some text editors just don't handle them well even with 16GB of RAM and a fairly modern i7 processor. Sublime Text is very good with large files.

Also the number of characters will depend on your system's keyboard repeat delay/rate settings.

The python script doesn't store the characters, just the count.

Makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to make the scripts.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 23, 2016, 10:55:24 pm

I dislike the lack of transparency with the "Revive" version of the train test.
I prefer to see the full data not "I won't bore you with the technical stuff which is probably too hard for you".
I prefer to see the full video time lapsed including evidence of the brand new battery blister pack being opened and the batteroo being put on one specific battery and being inserted into a specific train and another battery out of the same pack being put into the other, and then both trains being run in an unbroken cycle so I can see for myself how it was done (as was done by Frank in his video). Gives confidence in the methods being used, so I can see that they haven't made any glaring "mistakes".
I prefer to see the raw data, not a few cherry picked data points.
I also prefer to see the whole video, not just a little cherry picked snippet of the video.
I prefer to be given honest and open information about the person who is doing the tests, not all cloak and dagger stuff. It all reeks of "look away for a moment... aaaaand, look, the rabbit has disappeared! Just trust me, it really did."
If the "professional" in question posts a full video on youtube with more info, maybe it will be a viable test. Otherwise, all I see is a small video snippet with 2 trains going around 2 tracks for a short period of time, which establishes nothing useful whatsoever. The results are very different from what I saw in the other train test. Maybe as someone suggested it does come down to a difference between AA and AAA versions? But we can't know this because we know nothing about the batteries used or the toy trains used or the current drawn. What brand are the batteries? What expiration date is on them? Are they AA or AAA? Is it a single cell per train or a pair? Did the batteries in each train come out of the same blister pack? How many times was the test repeated? These are some of my questions.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: johndoe123 on December 23, 2016, 11:11:59 pm

Quote from: quad on December 23, 2016, 05:09:33 pm

Frank, I suspect a certain someone has found your video - it has one dislike now

One point, could I suggest you and anyone doing test videos to add both the word "Batteroo" and the word "Batteriser" somewhere in the searchable text, the title or description to get that extra search traffic

You are currently #1 video for "batteroo test" (private browser)

Thats why revivebatteries test results should not be discussed on their facebook website. They will delete negative comments anyway.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 23, 2016, 11:59:20 pm

Quote from: quad on December 23, 2016, 07:55:54 pm

Any way to get a ball park estimate how long a wireless keyboard will last under these circumstances? < 12 hours?

I got an old Apple wireless keyboard, model A1016, which needs 4 AA batteries. It needs about 0.8 mA and with spikes of 2 mA when you type. So would last for about 2 months. When you search in Google, it says 1 month with 7 hours per day. I guess it needs more current when the voltage is lower, so expect at least a week. Newer keyboards might need less power.

Regarding an earlier post about this keyboard type: It showed 39% without Batteroo and 87% with Batteroo. I checked the voltages, some values for the Mighty Monitor (or the context menu in the bluetooth symbol; it has a really slow update, fastest is to turn off the power supply, wait until connection lost, change the voltage, then turn it on again) :
3.9 V: 5 % (it doesn't turn on reliable below this level)
4 V: 11%
4.1 V: 15 %
4.2 V: 18 %
4.5 V: 30 %
4.7 V: 36 %
4.8 V: 40 %
4.9 V: 44 %
5.7 V: 71 %
5.9 V: 78 %
6.1 V: 85 %
6.14 V: 89 %
6.2 V: 91 %
6.4 V: 97 %
6.5 V: 100 %

So the Batteroo sleeves boosted from 4.8 V to 6.14 V, which means from 1.2 V per cell to 1.54 V per cell. And the keyboard still works with 0.98 V per cell. This means there is only less than 10 % power left for Batteroo, not 80 %. In combination with the boost converter losses, which might be even higher for such low currents, I would expect no advantage, compared to running it without the sleeves. But you might need some months patience to do all the tests.

If you want to get the battery level from a script, you can do this:

Code: [Select]

ioreg -l | grep BatteryPercent

This searches the whole registry, could be optimized, but Apple changed the path between different MacOSX versions, so this should work always. You could paste the output of "ioreg -l" to a file and search for it, then use "-n" to get the attributes for the specified object, only, which is a lot faster. On Mac OSX Sierra this works:

Code: [Select]

ioreg -n "IOAppleBluetoothHIDDriver"|grep BatteryPercent

Output looks like this:

Code: [Select]

      | |   |   |   "ExtendedFeatures" = {"FactoryDefault"={"id"=69,"type"=2},"RecantConnection"={"id"=65,"type"=2},"DeviceNameChange"={"id"=80,"type"=2},"DeviceName1"={"id"=81,"size"=8,"type"=2},"DeviceName2"={"id"=82,"size"=8,"type"=2},"DeviceName3"={"id"=83,"size"=8,"type"=2},"DeviceName4"={"id"=84,"size"=8,"type"=2},"BatteryState"={"size"=1,"id"=48,"min"=0,"max"=2,"type"=0},"BatteryPercent"={"size"=1,"id"=71,"min"=0,"max"=100,"type"=2},"WillShutdown"={"id"=64,"type"=2},"FullFactoryDefault"={"id"=68,"type"=2},"UserMode"={"size"=1,"id"=67,"min"=1,"max"=3,"type"=2}}
      | |   |   |   "BatteryPercent" = 86

Should be easy to parse in Python, to log the battery percentages, to make it a bit more professional. Battery percentages can be directly mapped to voltages, no need for an external logger (except if you want to log the real battery output, too, before the sleeve, and the current, but this could be derived as well from the out output voltage, if there is no special behaviour in the regulator chip).

I don't have the Batteroo sleeves anymore, and not the time to do the month long test (I have a Mac Book and need it sometimes), but if someone wants the keyboard for a test, I can send it to you. Was cheap, used, and is an old model, I bought it just to measure the voltages :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 24, 2016, 12:09:55 am

Quote from: samgab on December 23, 2016, 10:55:24 pm

I dislike the lack of transparency with the "Revive" version of the train test.
I prefer to see the full data not "I won't bore you with the technical stuff which is probably too hard for you".
I prefer to see the full video time lapsed including evidence of the brand new battery blister pack being opened and the batteroo being put on one specific battery and being inserted into a specific train and another battery out of the same pack being put into the other, and then both trains being run in an unbroken cycle so I can see for myself how it was done (as was done by Frank in his video). Gives confidence in the methods being used, so I can see that they haven't made any glaring "mistakes".

Could be still faked, e.g. discharge the battery without the sleeve, then close the blister pack carefully. Would get a lot more difficult, if the battery open loop voltage are measured at the beginning of the test on video (I really should have done this), but you could still fake a battery, or maybe use a strong magnet to slow down the train. The only way to be sure are independent tests with the same product. That's the reason I posted the exact model I used, both for the train and for the battery brand. I encourage everyone who likes trains and has a AAA Batteroo sleeve, to buy this train (https://www.amazon.com/Brio-Battery-Powered-Engine-Train/dp/B00AOVRS1E) (might be a nice present for little kids, though a bit late for xmas), or any other toys with motors, result will probably be the same, and repeat the test.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on December 24, 2016, 12:25:05 am

Quote from: samgab on December 23, 2016, 10:55:24 pm

I dislike the lack of transparency with the "Revive" version of the train test.
...

I have to admit I am looking forward to seeing the measurements of the Batteriser with a power supply input and a calibrated load on the output.

They will be the only accurate performance numbers.

Stuff like toy train tests and MP3 player tests - OK it makes a point, but I am an engineer - I want accurate numbers that do not depend on unknowns like battery capacity variations, load variations in unknown devices, etc. I want to know efficiency at different battery voltages and loads, regulation, noise (output and EMI), maximum practical current, conditions that destroy the Batteriser, interaction between multiple Batterisers particularly when the first Batteriser shuts down, Minimum cell voltage (if one Batteriser shuts down in a multi-cell battery pack, can you end up with -0.6v on a battery cell?). If a Batteriser instantly switches from no load to maximum load, will the output drop to the battery voltage - 0.8V  for the time it takes to wake up from sleep mode? If so how long is that time?

I am far more interested personally in that information then the one off battery tests on consumer devices.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 24, 2016, 01:49:12 am

Quote from: Towger on December 23, 2016, 06:47:50 pm

Well DHL has let us down. they missed their own ETA and the current status is "The Estimated Delivery Date is currently unavailable. Please try again later."
Oh well, at least they have arrived down under.

Quote

Saturday, December 24, 2016   Location   Time   Piece
18   Customs status updated   SYDNEY - AUSTRALIA   00:22

They are cleared, so will be on the next truck. Presumably the 27th.
No sign of my AA's direct from Batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 24, 2016, 01:50:33 am

NEW UPDATE!

Quote

Dear Friends,

We want to wish you all a happy holiday season and New Year! We hope it’s filled with blessings & memorable experiences with loved ones. Thankfully, It has been an auspicious time for Batteroo. We are delighted to announce that we shipped all Indiegogo orders! If you're still waiting, you'll be getting yours soon. As a startup, we faced many obstacles to get to this stage, and we're thankful you patiently stood by us!

The good news doesn't stop. We launched a new website at www.batteroo.com (http://www.batteroo.com). We look forward to sharing new testing and educational video content so that people can learn more about Batteroo, and how it can save you time, money & our environment by reducing the number of batteries in landfills.  You can also order more Batteroo Boost sleeves on our products page.

We also wanted to address a few questions. First, we want to remind you that once you receive a tracking e-mail, your order has shipped. For some international orders, however, the tracking link may be broken at first. This is due to a delay after the products transfer from U.S. mail to international postal services. We have addressed the problem & your link will work within 3 days. This has no effect on your shipment time.

Some of you noted that the Batteroo sleeves were a tight fit in a few devices. Battery compartments are designed so batteries fit securly in devices, so a tight fit is expected. To get a better appreciation for our technology, the Batteroo sleeve and electronic components add a mere 0.35 mm (thickness of a fingernail) to the battery length,  and 0.12 mm (thickness of a human hair) in thickness. There should be no issue with fit for most devices; however, a few device battery compartments leave absolutely no additional space. Just do your best to insert the sleeve without being forceful, and it should fit in most scenarios. We have addressed this further, as well as other user concerns  in our best practice guide on our new website. Click here for more.

Many of you have also asked about the Energizer lawsuit.  Based on a prior message, some of our customers may have believed that Energizer’s lawsuit against Batteroo’s use of the Batteriser name caused a delay in shipping products. This was not the case. Furthermore, the re-tooling of sleeves did not delay the shipment of our product.

Thanks again for supporting our campaign and making it such a success! You’ve helped us make history and get this groundbreaking technology out to the world.

Sincerely,

Batteroo

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on December 24, 2016, 02:08:03 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 23, 2016, 08:37:49 pm

And even this might be not the case. I measured the output voltage for different input voltages with different loads, see the second diagram here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1096221/#msg1096221). But it is interesting that the output voltage is pretty stable, regardless of the current, but still much less thant 1.5V. As mentioned by amyk, the reason might be that battery indicators still work.

I still think they have a product that might be useful for some niche applications. They should just post all data so that the user can decide. Couldn't find this output voltage behaviour on their FAQ or production description page. They might be even be able to sell their chip without the sleeve with a good datasheet.

That behaviour suggests a Vref that's not fully powered up at low Vin. I have a feeling it might not even be intentional, but they decided to go with it anyway...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on December 24, 2016, 03:31:01 am

Quote from: amyk on December 24, 2016, 02:08:03 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 23, 2016, 08:37:49 pm

And even this might be not the case. I measured the output voltage for different input voltages with different loads, see the second diagram here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1096221/#msg1096221). But it is interesting that the output voltage is pretty stable, regardless of the current, but still much less thant 1.5V. As mentioned by amyk, the reason might be that battery indicators still work.

I still think they have a product that might be useful for some niche applications. They should just post all data so that the user can decide. Couldn't find this output voltage behaviour on their FAQ or production description page. They might be even be able to sell their chip without the sleeve with a good datasheet.

That behaviour suggests a Vref that's not fully powered up at low Vin. I have a feeling it might not even be intentional, but they decided to go with it anyway...

LT power the reference from the output as long as the output is 0.24V or more above the input. This means that usually the reference stability ends up being independent of the input voltage. You would expect that the Batteriser would work the same way, but it seems they don't. Frank might be right in that it may be deliberate.

As the battery goes from 1.6V to 1V, the output goes from 1.52v to 1.4V - so most battery gauges will still be saying the battery is very good.

As the battery goes from 1v to 0.6V, the output gradually drops. This does mean it is not an abrupt shutdown from 100% to nothing and so I don't mind this behaviour at all.

My criticism is that the output voltage does not drop enough.

There will be devices that attempt to shutdown cleanly when the battery is getting low. The trouble with the Batteriser is the output is still 1.2V when the battery is 0.6V and so none of the clean shutdown routines will be triggered. Most smart devices will see 1.2V as meaning that there is lots of capacity left. I would have wanted the output to be under 1v output when the battery is 0.6v.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on December 24, 2016, 03:43:43 am

 We've waited how long for these Batteroo people to finish the excuses and actually ship, so surely we can wait a couple of weeks for Dave to spend time with his family and then produce what I am sure will be a VERY thorough analysis. In the meantime we have Frank, and also that latest update - wait, the Energizer lawsuit did not cause any delay? Didn't they say it WAS back at the time? And I really want to use their tooling provider if retooling the sleeve design to say Batteroo instead of Batterizer caused absolutely no delay. OK, it shouldn't take all that much time to change a few letter and regenerate the CAM file, but in the real world this usually takes a few days.
 Anyway, getting some fresh popcorn ready to see the response to the upcoming controlled tests - will the purchased dislikes make a return, will Dave (and Frank) be disparaged over their education level? Will random new accounts appear to post negative messages? Stay tuned for more from As The Battery Drains.....

 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 24, 2016, 05:27:50 am

If anyone is putting together a fully integrated test suite - particularly for passive devices like the trains, it may be nice to add (along with earlier suggestions), a timer controlled relay in the load...

A random on/off interval between say... 30 secs and 5 minutes - to simulate real world use by children or other intermittent operation where the device is turned on and off during normal operation.  Of course this will extend the overall runtime.

This may also suggest some added monitoring overhead for duty cycle and total active runtime.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 24, 2016, 09:48:05 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 24, 2016, 01:50:33 am

NEW UPDATE!

Quote

Dear Friends,


Some of you noted that the Batteroo sleeves were a tight fit in a few devices. Battery compartments are designed so batteries fit securly in devices, so a tight fit is expected. To get a better appreciation for our technology, the Batteroo sleeve and electronic components add a mere 0.35 mm (thickness of a fingernail) to the battery length,  and 0.12 mm (thickness of a human hair) in thickness. There should be no issue with fit for most devices; however, a few device battery compartments leave absolutely no additional space. Just do your best to insert the sleeve without being forceful, and it should fit in most scenarios. We have addressed this further, as well as other user concerns  in our best practice guide on our new website. Click here for more.


Sincerely,

Batteroo

According to the Batteroo website, the reason Batteroos don't make contact in some products is because the products aren't designed correctly. Fortunately, Bob has a solution.....

Quote

In some remote cases, these guards can stop the Batteroo top spring contact to not make connection with the positive contact of the battery-operated device. As we identify these devices, we are going to have communication with their manufacturers to improve on their design parameters

I'm sure they will appreciate the input. :)

Perhaps Bob could use the following as a template...

Quote

Dear (insert name of huge multi-national consumer electronics manufacturer here),

my name is Dr Bob Rhubarb and me and my brother, Frankie Rhubarb, have made a game-changing device that will reduce the battery life of your products, but don't worry, no one will notice because it also screws around with the battery metering whilst simultaneously making the world a better place for polar bears and dolphins etc etc. The only problem is you haven't designed your products properly and they won't fit our ground-breaking technological wonder! Please redesign them immediately, and don't bollocks it up this time!

Thanks for your cooperation.

PS If you're wondering about my expertise in this field, let me reassure you; I once reduced the size of an iPhone charger by 50%..... I cut it in half LOL.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 24, 2016, 09:53:12 am

When this approach to the manufacturers fails - Boob has a fallback solution.
Batteroo's going to reverse the direction of rotation of the Earth - so that time actually unwinds - and all naysayers can go suck eggs.
Apple are already supporting this position.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 24, 2016, 10:22:23 am

Quote

"In some remote cases, these guards can stop the Batteroo top spring contact to not make connection with the positive contact of the battery-operated device. As we identify these devices, we are going to have communication with their manufacturers to improve on their design parameters."

That's the funniest thing I've read all week - I wonder if it's  bullshit or self-delusion?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on December 24, 2016, 11:14:42 am

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 24, 2016, 10:22:23 am

Quote

"In some remote cases, these guards can stop the Batteroo top spring contact to not make connection with the positive contact of the battery-operated device. As we identify these devices, we are going to have communication with their manufacturers to improve on their design parameters."

That's the funniest thing I've read all week - I wonder if it's  bullshit or self-delusion?

This is the 100 year anniversary of the AA battery, and 70 years since the size was made a standard, and Bob wants to redefine it so that it accommodates a new contact that will break after a few uses.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 24, 2016, 11:23:05 am

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 24, 2016, 10:22:23 am

Quote

"In some remote cases, these guards can stop the Batteroo top spring contact to not make connection with the positive contact of the battery-operated device. As we identify these devices, we are going to have communication with their manufacturers to improve on their design parameters."

That's the funniest thing I've read all week - I wonder if it's  bullshit or self-delusion?

It's political.

By making such a statement, he pushes responsibility onto the manufacturers.  When the manufacturers do nothing about it, the public won't blame Batteroo - whether or not Batteroo actually approach any manufacturers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Koen on December 24, 2016, 11:28:34 am

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 24, 2016, 10:22:23 am

That's the funniest thing I've read all week - I wonder if it's  bullshit or self-delusion?

No, it's a clear lack of vision or ambition. Instead of convincing all manufacturers to enlarge the slots (the easy but less profitable way; opening the way to competitors too !), they should sell NDA access to a 200-pages specifications document which manufacturers could then each implement on their own and which would then give them the right to licence the holy "Batteriser capable" name, logo and on-product marking yearly.
I've dropped the idea to my lawyer before clicking "post", you never know.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on December 24, 2016, 11:43:26 am

What Boob should have said ...

Quote

"In some remote cases, devices do actually benefit from addition of a Batteroo. As we identify these devices, we are going to have communication with their manufacturers to improve on their design parameters so they don't need a Batteroo."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: IanB on December 24, 2016, 12:21:09 pm

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 24, 2016, 10:22:23 am

Quote

"In some remote cases, these guards can stop the Batteroo top spring contact to not make connection with the positive contact of the battery-operated device. As we identify these devices, we are going to have communication with their manufacturers to improve on their design parameters."

That's the funniest thing I've read all week - I wonder if it's  bullshit or self-delusion?

I didn't mention it because I thought everyone would already be aware of it, but that's most like the reverse polarity protection. Nearly all electronic devices that are polarity sensitive have a plastic ridge around the positive contact that is just large enough for the positive button of the battery to fit inside. This prevents the negative end of the battery making electrical contact if the battery is put in backwards, thus protecting the device from damage.

Obviously if you do something that changes the shape of the positive button it will prevent this mechanism from working. This is a factor that would normally be expected to come up the early stages of product design.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 24, 2016, 12:45:42 pm

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 24, 2016, 10:22:23 am

Quote

"In some remote cases, these guards can stop the Batteroo top spring contact to not make connection with the positive contact of the battery-operated device. As we identify these devices, we are going to have communication with their manufacturers to improve on their design parameters."

That's the funniest thing I've read all week - I wonder if it's  bullshit or self-delusion?

As Brumby said, it's just blaming someone else for their own design failures in a nice way to delude the reader. Batteroo did also underestimate the amount of battery compartments with a tight fit. The flimsy sleeves break easily. I think we'll see a lot of complaints about broken sleeves and battery compartment issues.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 24, 2016, 01:51:30 pm

What's the return / refund / warranty policy on the Batterisers?

Is this a case where IGG backers get ignored? What about people who purchased off the website?

We've already had a broken Batteriser and that was with the user being *careful*.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on December 24, 2016, 03:53:28 pm

Remote cases are certainly one of the more common places to find the reverse polarity protection guards. :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 24, 2016, 04:03:35 pm

Quote from: quad on December 24, 2016, 01:51:30 pm

What's the return / refund / warranty policy on the Batterisers?

Is this a case where IGG backers get ignored?

You seem to be forgetting that when you back something on IGG, you are contributing a donation to a project, perhaps with the hope of possibly receiving a perk if everything goes successfully...

You are NOT purchasing a product!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on December 24, 2016, 04:42:03 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 24, 2016, 11:23:05 am

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 24, 2016, 10:22:23 am

Quote

"In some remote cases, these guards can stop the Batteroo top spring contact to not make connection with the positive contact of the battery-operated device. As we identify these devices, we are going to have communication with their manufacturers to improve on their design parameters."

That's the funniest thing I've read all week - I wonder if it's  bullshit or self-delusion?

It's political.

By making such a statement, he pushes responsibility onto the manufacturers.  When the manufacturers do nothing about it, the public won't blame Batteroo - whether or not Batteroo actually approach any manufacturers.

'The manufacturers' could simply integrate Batteroo's groundbraking circuit on their own PCB, so no one has to hassle with flimsy sleeves, because it's already built in the device. How cool would that be!

And then while they are at it, the manufacturers could:
- Use just one 'batteroo chip' for a set of batteries, instead of one for each single cell,
- Taylor the circuit to the specific needs of their device,
- use better parts because they have more space,
- properly shutdown the converter when the device is off,
- Still measure the bare cell voltage for the battery gauge.

These benefits are so obvious that maybe, just maybe, manufacturers are already doing just that.

But Bob must prevent his crowd from figuring this out, so he throws op distractions like 'big battery should integrate this technology in their batteries', and 'manufacturers should modify their device to make the sleeve fit'.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on December 24, 2016, 04:50:23 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 24, 2016, 01:50:33 am

NEW UPDATE!

Quote

Dear Friends,

<...snip...>
Many of you have also asked about the Energizer lawsuit.  Based on a prior message, some of our customers may have believed that Energizer’s lawsuit against Batteroo’s use of the Batteriser name caused a delay in shipping products. This was not the case. Furthermore, the re-tooling of sleeves did not delay the shipment of our product.
<...snip...>

Sincerely,

Batteroo

This to to me reads as: "Be nice to Energizer, they can still come after us if we talk bad about them"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 24, 2016, 05:06:01 pm

Quote from: drussell on December 24, 2016, 04:03:35 pm

Quote from: quad on December 24, 2016, 01:51:30 pm

What's the return / refund / warranty policy on the Batterisers?

Is this a case where IGG backers get ignored?

You seem to be forgetting that when you back something on IGG, you are contributing a donation to a project, perhaps with the hope of possibly receiving a perk if everything goes successfully...

You are NOT purchasing a product!

From memory we have already been over this subject and I suspect more than once, it would appear that they themselves got caught in their own trap by way of wonky wording, now that I understand these arrangements better I do agree with you though that these campaigns are generally based around a donation backed arrangement rather than a promissory note, interpretation matters.

Backers and Perks.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/5000/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/5000/) 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: steverino on December 24, 2016, 08:22:03 pm

This looks like the train set used in rb's video:

https://www.amazon.com/Fisher-Price-Thomas-TrackMaster-Station-Starter/dp/B0160SNY7Q/ref=sr_1_1?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1482610735&sr=1-1&keywords=thomas+the+train+set (https://www.amazon.com/Fisher-Price-Thomas-TrackMaster-Station-Starter/dp/B0160SNY7Q/ref=sr_1_1?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1482610735&sr=1-1&keywords=thomas+the+train+set)

-Steve

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 24, 2016, 08:29:19 pm

With regard to the 'flimsy' construction of the BatterPoo
I don't think that's something we can criticise straight out of the gate because the construction has always been out on the table to see.   However, their flimsy positive contact is another thing.

Notwithstanding the engineering flaws and endless excuses, Boob has astounded me with his complete disregard for reality - even when it's put on the table in front of him.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: steverino on December 24, 2016, 08:35:15 pm

Quote from: SL4P on December 24, 2016, 08:29:19 pm

Notwithstanding the engineering flaws and endless excuses, Boob has astounded me with his complete disregard for reality - even when it's put on the table in front of him.

Truth seems to have lost all meaning in the current world.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 24, 2016, 08:58:05 pm

Quote

Thanks again for supporting our campaign and making it such a success! You’ve helped us make history and get this groundbreaking technology out to the world.

The sun always shines on Planet Bob :palm:

Not content with claiming "success" and "groundbreaking technology" they've also made history!

Has this man no integrity?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 24, 2016, 10:02:45 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 24, 2016, 08:58:05 pm

Quote

Thanks again for supporting our campaign and making it such a success! You’ve helped us make history and get this groundbreaking technology out to the world.

The sun always shines on Planet Bob :palm:
Not content with claiming "success" and "groundbreaking technology" they've also made history!
Has this man no integrity?

California... chances are a boost with artificial stimulants?

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on December 24, 2016, 10:17:25 pm

Quote from: SL4P on December 24, 2016, 08:29:19 pm

With regard to the 'flimsy' construction of the BatterPoo

Chaps, can we please stop calling it "BatterPoo"?

It's makes us sound like a bunch of 16 year old keyboard warriors instead of a bunch of intelligent, mostly professionals, critically examining a flawed product using logic and hard data.

Being juvenile about it gives others reason to discount us as a bunch of immature children.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 24, 2016, 11:09:37 pm

Bob can make the claim that his Bats save the equipment they are used in.  If a toy runs less time on the Bats then the device has less wear on it.  So maybe they are worth it?  After all the toy is worth more than the battery.  Great sales pitch (hint hint).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on December 25, 2016, 12:29:36 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 24, 2016, 11:09:37 pm

Bob can make the claim that his Bats save the equipment they are used in.  If a toy runs less time on the Bats then the device has less wear on it.  So maybe they are worth it?  After all the toy is worth more than the battery.  Great sales pitch (hint hint).

That's a great point!  The LEDs and drivers in torches will also have an increased working live due the the Batteryiseroos limiting the current they can draw...

Also, people will be less likely to suffer hearing damage as they will not be able to listen to their MP3 players for as long.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on December 25, 2016, 12:36:35 am

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 24, 2016, 10:22:23 am

Quote

"In some remote cases, these guards can stop the Batteroo top spring contact to not make connection with the positive contact of the battery-operated device. As we identify these devices, we are going to have communication with their manufacturers to improve on their design parameters."

That's the funniest thing I've read all week - I wonder if it's  bullshit or self-delusion?

I can hardly wait until Bros. Roohparvar tell battery manufacturers that they must adjust the agreed sizes of all primary cells in order to accommodate the extra length of the sleeve.   :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 25, 2016, 02:25:41 am

Quote from: djos on December 24, 2016, 10:17:25 pm

Quote from: SL4P on December 24, 2016, 08:29:19 pm

With regard to the 'flimsy' construction of the BatterPoo

Chaps, can we please stop calling it "BatterPoo"?

It's makes us sound like a bunch of 16 year old keyboard warriors instead of a bunch of intelligent, mostly professionals, critically examining a flawed product using logic and hard data.
Being juvenile about it gives others reason to discount us as a bunch of immature children.

We're waaaay past that point.
That's like rolling back 18 months, and politely asking Bob & family to come good on their IGG promises.
Neither will have any effect.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on December 25, 2016, 08:00:49 am

Quote from: SL4P on December 25, 2016, 02:25:41 am

We're waaaay past that point.
That's like rolling back 18 months, and politely asking Bob & family to come good on their IGG promises.
Neither will have any effect.

Lol, fair play. :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 25, 2016, 11:10:52 am

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 24, 2016, 10:22:23 am

Quote

"In some remote cases, these guards can stop the Batteroo top spring contact to not make connection with the positive contact of the battery-operated device. As we identify these devices, we are going to have communication with their manufacturers to improve on their design parameters."

That's the funniest thing I've read all week - I wonder if it's  bullshit or self-delusion?

Are they mutually exclusive?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 25, 2016, 11:12:57 am

Quote from: PeterL on December 24, 2016, 04:42:03 pm

Quote from: Brumby on December 24, 2016, 11:23:05 am

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 24, 2016, 10:22:23 am

Quote

"In some remote cases, these guards can stop the Batteroo top spring contact to not make connection with the positive contact of the battery-operated device. As we identify these devices, we are going to have communication with their manufacturers to improve on their design parameters."

That's the funniest thing I've read all week - I wonder if it's  bullshit or self-delusion?

It's political.
By making such a statement, he pushes responsibility onto the manufacturers.  When the manufacturers do nothing about it, the public won't blame Batteroo - whether or not Batteroo actually approach any manufacturers.

'The manufacturers' could simply integrate Batteroo's groundbraking circuit on their own PCB, so no one has to hassle with flimsy sleeves, because it's already built in the device. How cool would that be!

The irony is they already do. It's called a DC-DC converter.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on December 25, 2016, 06:53:01 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 25, 2016, 11:12:57 am

The irony is they already do. It's called a DC-DC converter.

Did Santa not bring you a sarcasm detector Dave? :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on December 25, 2016, 07:14:33 pm

Quote from: Delta on December 25, 2016, 12:29:36 am

Quote from: ez24 on December 24, 2016, 11:09:37 pm

Bob can make the claim that his Bats save the equipment they are used in.  If a toy runs less time on the Bats then the device has less wear on it.  So maybe they are worth it?  After all the toy is worth more than the battery.  Great sales pitch (hint hint).

That's a great point!  The LEDs and drivers in torches will also have an increased working live due the the Batteryiseroos limiting the current they can draw...

Also, people will be less likely to suffer hearing damage as they will not be able to listen to their MP3 players for as long.

I should start using Ethanol blended fuel in my car instead of 'premium' because it achieves far less kilometers per tank so therefore reduces wear on my tyres plus it'll cost me more in the long run so I'll drive less in order to cut down overall costs ;-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjetil on December 26, 2016, 08:07:51 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 24, 2016, 12:09:55 am

...
Could be still faked, e.g. discharge the battery without the sleeve, then close the blister pack carefully. Would get a lot more difficult, if the battery open loop voltage are measured at the beginning of the test on video (I really should have done this), but you could still fake a battery, or maybe use a strong magnet to slow down the train. The only way to be sure are independent tests with the same product. That's the reason I posted the exact model I used, both for the train and for the battery brand. I encourage everyone who likes trains and has a AAA Batteroo sleeve, to buy this train (https://www.amazon.com/Brio-Battery-Powered-Engine-Train/dp/B00AOVRS1E) (might be a nice present for little kids, though a bit late for xmas), or any other toys with motors, result will probably be the same, and repeat the test.

Thanks for doing the test.

Another issue could be that the train was modified during shots, for example by increasing the load/burning off power in one of the tests. That wouldn't be easily visible during a test, especially not on the big blue train model.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 26, 2016, 10:21:56 am

Quote from: samgab on December 23, 2016, 10:55:24 pm

I dislike the lack of transparency with the "Revive" version of the train test.

I'm very impressed how non-techie Mr. 'Off The Grid' Wayne has put together a massive, technical "Refute EEVBLOG at all costs" video in such a short time. At Christmas, too!

Is this really yhr same guy who couldn't leave a torch to run out?

Quote from: samgab on December 23, 2016, 10:55:24 pm

I prefer to see the full data not "I won't bore you with the technical stuff which is probably too hard for you".

I don't think there's any doubt now that Wayne==Batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 26, 2016, 10:28:20 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 26, 2016, 10:21:56 am

Quote from: samgab on December 23, 2016, 10:55:24 pm

I dislike the lack of transparency with the "Revive" version of the train test.

I'm very impressed how non-techie Mr. 'Off The Grid' Wayne has put together a massive, technical "Refute EEVBLOG at all costs" video in such a short time. At Christmas, too!

He didn't do it, he wrote this in his Facebook posting, too. Most likely Batteroo sent him the video. BTW, if you missed it, I added the lap times now for my video, see the Batteroo testing thread here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1098831/#msg1098831 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1098831/#msg1098831)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 26, 2016, 10:32:09 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 26, 2016, 10:28:20 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 26, 2016, 10:21:56 am

I'm very impressed how non-techie Mr. 'Off The Grid' Wayne has put together a massive, technical "Refute EEVBLOG at all costs" video in such a short time. At Christmas, too!

He didn't do it, he wrote this in his Facebook posting, too. Most likely Batteroo sent him the video.

Somebody else didn't get a sarcasm detector for Xmas.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on December 26, 2016, 07:52:38 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=280795;image)

If I understand this right, the Batterisers are making the batteries get so hot you can't touch them?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on December 26, 2016, 08:22:21 pm

Quote from: quad on December 26, 2016, 07:52:38 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=280795;image)

If I understand this right, the Batterisers are making the batteries get so hot you can't touch them?

How would the batteriser heat the batteries? I suspect something shorted out in those LED lights.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn ZTE A2017G met Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Scottjd on December 26, 2016, 08:42:43 pm

Quote from: meeder on December 26, 2016, 08:22:21 pm

Quote from: quad on December 26, 2016, 07:52:38 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=280795;image)

If I understand this right, the Batterisers are making the batteries get so hot you can't touch them?

How would the batteriser heat the batteries? I suspect something shorted out in those LED lights.

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It's more the constant current LED tourches and I will guess the components on the batter??? (What ever it called now) over heat. And that's it's a steal strip probably acting some as a heat sync, on a steal battery, in a small tube probably aluminum for the flashlight and no way to let the heat disapate. 
Now some say if you have an led flashlight that's PWM then it may be ok to use with this Thor of flashlight. But even some led lights that are PWM on lower levels but still might be direct current when its on high or turbo. The real cheap ones will probably be ok and PWM on all levels, but if someone is complaining about battery life on the flashlight then it's probably a decent constant current flashlight like the ones I build that draw 3.2A when it's in high and are constant current on all levels.
Either that or they use really cheap batteries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on December 26, 2016, 08:44:52 pm

Yes but that person is talking about led candles. Normal led candles work ages on batteries.
Something is wrong there.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn ZTE A2017G met Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on December 26, 2016, 08:52:57 pm

Quote from: meeder on December 26, 2016, 08:22:21 pm

Quote from: quad on December 26, 2016, 07:52:38 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=280795;image)

If I understand this right, the Batterisers are making the batteries get so hot you can't touch them?

How would the batteriser heat the batteries? I suspect something shorted out in those LED lights.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn ZTE A2017G met Tapatalk

Could also be a short in the batteriser.
But my guess is that these lights draw a current that is on the edge of what the batteriser can do, and the batteriser thus has (extra)poor efficiency, and high losses. Due to the nature of the led light it needs a contstant power, and thus the battery needs to deliver even more power just to overcome the losses in the batteriser. And  of course the batteriser itself is producing heat due to the losses.
Also the the current drawn from the battery is pwm'd by the batteriser, which gives higher stresses on the ESR and therefore more selfheating of the battery.
It's just a thought, but I think it's an interesting case to test.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 26, 2016, 08:54:17 pm

Somebody should probably light a candle in memory of Batteroo's reputable name.   ::)

Preemptive post, somebody might need it.
https://www.productsafety.gov.au/recalls (https://www.productsafety.gov.au/recalls) 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 26, 2016, 08:57:32 pm

Quote from: quad on December 26, 2016, 07:52:38 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=280795;image)

If I understand this right, the Batterisers are making the batteries get so hot you can't touch them?

Now there's an opportunity for an impartial non-techie...
Let the batteroo get hot in some innocuous application, and effectively do a 'Note 7'... :-BROKE
The insurance payout for almost anything will be well worth it.

That is of course if Boob has liability insurance.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: sync on December 26, 2016, 09:12:50 pm

Quote from: meeder on December 26, 2016, 08:22:21 pm

How would the batteriser heat the batteries? I suspect something shorted out in those LED lights.

Could be the case. The batteriser sleeve is connected to the negative battery terminal. The case of an alkaline battery is positive. Of course this problem is not limited to LED lights.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on December 26, 2016, 09:37:31 pm

Quote from: SL4P on December 26, 2016, 08:57:32 pm

Let the batteroo get hot in some innocuous application, and effectively do a 'Note 7'... :-BROKE

If that really happens, it won't be long until batteroos are prohibited on airplanes.

That is, of course, if batteroo really sells enough to be noticed by IATA, NTSB and other civil aviation and air transportation associations.

On a side note, I wonder how bateroo behave on non-rechargeable lithium batteries, like the Energizer Lithium Ultimate.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Twoflower on December 26, 2016, 10:10:21 pm

Or could that be that the batteries just got shorted with the metal sleeve? As Dave pointed out that this is a potential cause of trouble. To create a thin and durable insulation could be tricky. Mainly I'm a bit worried at the corners. Can someone with a Batterizer have a closer look how well it is manufactured? Maybe even measure the conductivity with a connective foam or other soft conductive material. Just to prevent claims that the used probe damaged the insulation.

Depending how sharp the corner is I could imagine that the corner of the sleeve can also probably cut through the insulation of the battery. Especially if you have to squeeze it into the battery compartment.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 26, 2016, 10:19:16 pm

It's been 5 days since I got the shipping notification, but still USPS tracking doe not recognise the number.
But maybe because it's xmas?

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on December 26, 2016, 10:27:26 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 26, 2016, 10:19:16 pm

It's been 5 days since I got the shipping notification, but still USPS tracking doe not recognise the number.
But maybe because it's xmas?

No, it's because they generated a label but the package hasn't been scanned in yet by USPS. Even international packages are scanned in, so you should see something if it'd actually been shipped.

(That said, USPS tracking is notoriously flakey, though it's been much better over the last year or so. At the very least tracking would always show the initial pickup/drop off, even if it didn't update again until after I had received the item.)

This is a not uncommon scam to pull when you need to buy time to ship the actual product. (That is sending tracking numbers that don't work to customers.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: IanB on December 26, 2016, 11:59:50 pm

Quote from: timb on December 26, 2016, 10:27:26 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 26, 2016, 10:19:16 pm

It's been 5 days since I got the shipping notification, but still USPS tracking doe not recognise the number.
But maybe because it's xmas?

No, it's because they generated a label but the package hasn't been scanned in yet by USPS. Even international packages are scanned in, so you should see something if it'd actually been shipped.

It could also be because of the holidays. The US Post Office takes every holiday in the calendar as a non-working day, so I imagine Saturday/Sunday/Monday/Tuesday were all dead days.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 27, 2016, 12:06:24 am

The AAA Batterisers are still marked "Arrived at Delivery Facility in SYDNEY", so won't be out today by the looks of it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Watth on December 27, 2016, 12:54:37 am

Quote from: Delta on December 25, 2016, 06:53:01 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 25, 2016, 11:12:57 am

The irony is they already do. It's called a DC-DC converter.

Did Santa not bring you a sarcasm detector Dave? :)

He already has one, but the batteries won't work, yet still have 80% of their energy unused.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on December 27, 2016, 03:58:22 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 26, 2016, 10:19:16 pm

It's been 5 days since I got the shipping notification, but still USPS tracking doe not recognise the number.
But maybe because it's xmas?

If you look at razvanme's tracking number (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1092659/#msg1092659) which actually arrived. The tracking number format "RE*****SE" means it's sent from Sweden (SE) as a "Rekommenderat Brev" (RE, insured letter). My tracking number from batteroo is the same format and I don't live in Europe.

It tracks on PostNord (Sweden) as simply going through DirectLink http://www.postnord.se/en/tools/track/Pages/track-and-trace.aspx?search=RE516481241SE (http://www.postnord.se/en/tools/track/Pages/track-and-trace.aspx?search=RE516481241SE)

You can also track it with DirectLink https://tracking.directlink.com/multipletrack-client2.php?postal_ref_mode=1 (https://tracking.directlink.com/multipletrack-client2.php?postal_ref_mode=1)

It tracks on Post Romania with all the steps it went through romania https://www.posta-romana.ro/track-trace.html (https://www.posta-romana.ro/track-trace.html)

The USPS has never heard of it https://tools.usps.com/go/TrackConfirmAction_input (https://tools.usps.com/go/TrackConfirmAction_input)

I don't think Bob even knows what shipping company they're using...

(this post was edited after I noticed I typoed the tracking number once and made the wrong conclusions)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 27, 2016, 04:28:22 am

Quote from: kalleboo on December 27, 2016, 03:58:22 am

If you look at razvanme's tracking number (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1092659/#msg1092659) which actually arrived. The tracking number format "RE*****SE" means it's sent from Sweden (SE) as a "Rekommenderat Brev" (RE, insured letter). My tracking number from batteroo is the same format and I don't live in Europe.

Mine is LBxxxxxSE
No joy on either of those links.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on December 27, 2016, 05:10:09 am

Quote from: meeder on December 26, 2016, 08:44:52 pm

Yes but that person is talking about led candles. Normal led candles work ages on batteries.
Something is wrong there.

Yes it would take a short to make a battery too hot to touch. I was surprised they even made an AAA version because there is so little space around the battery +ve 'pip' to fit components. The shape and size of the 'pip' doesn't seem to be tightly defined.

Looking at this (http://i.imgur.com/BHXwp23.jpg) I could see the inductor shorting on the top of the battery which could bypass it. The switcher might still try to work with a shorted inductor, probably at several MHz with a few % efficiency.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on December 27, 2016, 06:38:10 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2016, 12:06:24 am

The AAA Batterisers are still marked "Arrived at Delivery Facility in SYDNEY", so won't be out today by the looks of it.

Not sure what's going on there. One they hit Australia, is most likely Australia Post has the contract to deliver them, in which case they generate their own tracking details (sometimes you can track "international tracking numbers"). AusPost are pretty good, they generally update their tracking details within 15 minutes of passing under one of their scanners, even at rural facilities that use those handheld PDA devices.

Try punching in your tracking number on AusPost's website. Sometimes they recognise tracking details from other carriers. If it was sent a "letter" good luck. Those aren't usually trackable (I had the same issue with a Kogan delivery, it had an "article number" not a "tracking number" and nothing recognised it after it had been lodged, even in Australia Post's own internal system).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Scottjd on December 27, 2016, 07:25:33 am

Quote from: meeder on December 26, 2016, 08:44:52 pm

Yes but that person is talking about led candles. Normal led candles work ages on batteries.
Something is wrong there.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn ZTE A2017G met Tapatalk

Good catch, I read before it said not to use them with LED flashlights, I missed the candle part.  I saw another person mention it said flashlights, so o guess I jumped to flashlight.
Im not sure it specifically says LED candles, maybe I need to watch tha unboxing video again since they don't lost this on the website. What a pain, buy them first then find out it won't work for what you bought it for until you'd read the  pamphlet inside the package.
The web site doesn't even mention this in the FAQ, now we will see if they are reading this thread and they fix it.
You would think if something is known to be not compatible and would get the battery to hot to touch it should be mentioned up front on the website selling them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 27, 2016, 11:28:07 am

Rebellion in the ranks over at IGG...

Quote

YU CHAN CHO

U R LIAR
I want to cancel my order

https://youtu.be/pj6GyGVWwto

Looking forward to Bob's response....

 :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 27, 2016, 11:57:31 am

Quote from: Blocco on December 27, 2016, 11:28:07 am

Rebellion in the ranks over at IGG...

LOL

(http://i.imgur.com/fy0400w.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 27, 2016, 02:19:29 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 27, 2016, 11:28:07 am

Looking forward to Bob's response....

 :popcorn:

Same procedure as every year James: deleting the comment. Or posting their train video, where you can see a 2 minute video of a different train, and the argument that at least it runs faster with the sleeve. Original quote from their facebook posting (https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/posts/1303252479741119) (it is on Wayne's page, but I guess he got the text with the video from Batteroo) : "At what point would the average person decide that train 1 was too slow and change the battery? (Probably when little Johnny started throwing a tantrum because it wasn’t going fast enough!)."  :blah:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 27, 2016, 02:38:02 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 27, 2016, 02:19:29 pm

(Probably when little Johnny started throwing a tantrum because it wasn’t going fast enough!)."  :blah:

What sort of brats do these people own?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 27, 2016, 06:40:14 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 27, 2016, 02:38:02 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 27, 2016, 02:19:29 pm

(Probably when little Johnny started throwing a tantrum because it wasn’t going fast enough!)."  :blah:

What sort of brats do these people own?

The whiny entitled Millennial kind, who want instant gratification, and have never been told "NO" in their lives, and who have the helicopter parents who will wrap them in fluffy stuff, so their delicate sensibilities are never offended, and pander to every whim.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 27, 2016, 07:30:22 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 27, 2016, 02:19:29 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 27, 2016, 11:28:07 am

Looking forward to Bob's response....

 :popcorn:

Same procedure as every year James: deleting the comment. Or posting their train video, where you can see a 2 minute video of a different train, and the argument that at least it runs faster with the sleeve. Original quote from their facebook posting (https://www.facebook.com/revivebatteries/posts/1303252479741119) (it is on Wayne's page, but I guess he got the text with the video from Batteroo) : "At what point would the average person decide that train 1 was too slow and change the battery? (Probably when little Johnny started throwing a tantrum because it wasn’t going fast enough!)."  :blah:

You were correct, Bob's back, and the offending comment has disappeared.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on December 27, 2016, 08:38:22 pm

Quote from: Halcyon on December 27, 2016, 06:38:10 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 27, 2016, 12:06:24 am

The AAA Batterisers are still marked "Arrived at Delivery Facility in SYDNEY", so won't be out today by the looks of it.

Not sure what's going on there. One they hit Australia, is most likely Australia Post has the contract to deliver them, in which case they generate their own tracking details (sometimes you can track "international tracking numbers"). AusPost are pretty good, they generally update their tracking details within 15 minutes of passing under one of their scanners, even at rural facilities that use those handheld PDA devices.

Try punching in your tracking number on AusPost's website. Sometimes they recognise tracking details from other carriers. If it was sent a "letter" good luck. Those aren't usually trackable (I had the same issue with a Kogan delivery, it had an "article number" not a "tracking number" and nothing recognised it after it had been lodged, even in Australia Post's own internal system).

Actually they frequently go through a company called DAI Post first to clear customs etc then auspost delivers then.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on December 27, 2016, 08:48:24 pm

Every backer of the Indiegogo campaign got burnt - just some more literally than others.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=280994;image)

The U R LIAR post got deleted while the earlier too hot to touch candle post survived without comment.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 27, 2016, 09:08:02 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on December 27, 2016, 08:48:24 pm

Every backer of the Indiegogo campaign got burnt - just some more literally than others.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=280994;image)

The U R LIAR post got deleted while the earlier too hot to touch candle post survived without comment.

This must be what Bob meant when he claimed they'd made history.....  Batteroo will be remembered as the dumbest invention supported by the most dishonest campaigner.
In the future, children will sing songs about it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 27, 2016, 09:17:15 pm

For those playing along at home... Looks like Dave's first Batteroo's are "With Delivery Courier"/"Out for delivery" as of time of this post...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on December 27, 2016, 09:19:59 pm

I wonder how long before the Australian Competition & Consumer Commission issue a recall for these devices due to them being unsafe, a fire risk and risk of battery leakage?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Bud on December 28, 2016, 01:15:43 am

Quote from: samgab on December 27, 2016, 09:17:15 pm

For those playing along at home... Looks like Dave's first Batteroo's are "With Delivery Courier"/"Out for delivery" as of time of this post...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=281217;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on December 28, 2016, 01:18:57 am

Quote from: samgab on December 27, 2016, 09:17:15 pm

For those playing along at home... Looks like Dave's first Batteroo's are "With Delivery Courier"/"Out for delivery" as of time of this post...

Delivered - Signed for by : RACHEAL W

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on December 28, 2016, 01:38:00 am

Quote from: Bud on December 28, 2016, 01:15:43 am

Quote from: samgab on December 27, 2016, 09:17:15 pm

For those playing along at home... Looks like Dave's first Batteroo's are "With Delivery Courier"/"Out for delivery" as of time of this post...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=281217;image)

I see your point and raise you :
(http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/0/9536/350201-norm_421bfd4311a1b_monty_python___the_holy_grail__1975_.jpeg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 28, 2016, 01:42:23 am

I've got them and I'm LIVE unboxing!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAsUI2YhqN4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAsUI2YhqN4)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ysjoelfir on December 28, 2016, 02:34:56 am

Nice live unboxing and rambling dave, I appreciated it.
Have fun in the lab and catch you ne!

It's 3:35 here in germany, yeeez... Should go to bed finaly...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on December 28, 2016, 04:11:33 am

crap... I'm still at work with 6 hours to go...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BoomBrush on December 28, 2016, 08:56:59 am

I was watching the videos from TechnologyCatalyst and he made a really good point about how the Batteriser could cause death.

Imagine somebody who sticks the Batteriser into their smoke alarm because they think it will give them "80% more life". Since the unit is always at 1.5-1.6v, the smoke alarm doesn't know when the battery is low! Meaning, the beeps that occur which scream "CHANGE THE BATTERY" won't happen! It would assume the battery is full and not tell you the battery is dying.

So once the battery passes the cut out voltage for the Batteriser, no more smoke alarm! No warning!! This could cause a house to burn down and kill a family (for example).

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw_jFIPxePc&t=21m33s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw_jFIPxePc&t=21m33s)
(21 minutes 33 seconds is when he mentions the smoke alarm)

Before I watched that video, I didn't really worry about the whole Batteriser thing, like I knew it was giving false claims but oh well. But now, I worry for my life that people will buy into this product and possibly cause fires, which could harm property or even cause death.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TechnicalBen on December 28, 2016, 09:04:24 am

Hi guys. First post, and I registered as Davids videos are great and I hope to learn a little about electronics one day and make one or two things.

So when I saw this post, I though it would help to point out one or two obvious points to help save some time.

Statistical analyses and general variation. What of? Battery charge and manufacturing tolerances or manufacture quality checks.

Long story short, check out Bigclivedotcom (his site, youtube or anyone else doing such tests) on total battery charge tests. So if you are very selective on your published results, it's easy to pretend even canned hot air would change a batteries performance!

Basically many brands vary off the charts all over the place. So a 800% difference is not surprising for the batteries, with or without a joule thief!  :bullshit:

[Edit]
Ps, oh, that video from TechnologyCatalyst is gold. Seems this is more than just using some noisy data to fake some figures... is it completely false advertising?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CJay on December 28, 2016, 09:26:48 am

This is hilarious and has descended into the farce of snake oil sales, it's passed from 'This iracle product will give you 800% more life from your batteries' to 'Even though it didn't last as long in my own tests I feel people will still buy them because they want things to work full speed for less time'.

I'm now wondering how much money the Darwin candidate has sunk into Batteroo to obtain 'exclusive' distribution rights for him to be so desperately clinging onto the hope that he can fool people into buying it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 28, 2016, 09:35:08 am

Quote from: BoomBrush on December 28, 2016, 08:56:59 am

I was watching the videos from TechnologyCatalyst and he made a really good point about how the Batteriser could cause death.
Imagine somebody who sticks the Batteriser into their smoke alarm because they think it will give them "80% more life". Since the unit is always at 1.5-1.6v, the smoke alarm doesn't know when the battery is low! Meaning, the beeps that occur which scream "CHANGE THE BATTERY" won't happen! It would assume the battery is full and not tell you the battery is dying.
So once the battery passes the cut out voltage for the Batteriser, no more smoke alarm! No warning!! This could cause a house to burn down and kill a family (for example).

Yep.
I don't know of any 1.5V smoke alarms though, but Batteriser are planing (and have promised to give out for free to backers) a 9V version  :scared:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 28, 2016, 09:38:11 am

Quote from: TechnicalBen on December 28, 2016, 09:04:24 am

Basically many brands vary off the charts all over the place. So a 800% difference is not surprising for the batteries, with or without a joule thief!  :bullshit:

You can't possibly get 800% variation.
Yes there will be some variation in new battery capacity and variation in the electro-chemistry, but it's not huge. It might be a 10% spread or so.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on December 28, 2016, 09:44:27 am

Quote from: TechnicalBen on December 28, 2016, 09:04:24 am

Long story short, check out Bigclivedotcom (his site, youtube or anyone else doing such tests) on total battery charge tests. So if you are very selective on your published results, it's easy to pretend even canned hot air would change a batteries performance!

Basically many brands vary off the charts all over the place. So a 800% difference is not surprising for the batteries, with or without a joule thief!  :bullshit:

Quality batteries are fairly consistent in capacity, only some cheap Chinese batteries varies significantly in capacity.
I have done 100's of battery tests here: http://www.lygte-info.dk/info/indexBatteriesAndChargers%20UK.html (http://www.lygte-info.dk/info/indexBatteriesAndChargers%20UK.html) (Use the links to comparators).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 28, 2016, 10:25:34 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 28, 2016, 09:35:08 am

Quote from: BoomBrush on December 28, 2016, 08:56:59 am

I was watching the videos from TechnologyCatalyst and he made a really good point about how the Batteriser could cause death.
Imagine somebody who sticks the Batteriser into their smoke alarm because they think it will give them "80% more life". Since the unit is always at 1.5-1.6v, the smoke alarm doesn't know when the battery is low! Meaning, the beeps that occur which scream "CHANGE THE BATTERY" won't happen! It would assume the battery is full and not tell you the battery is dying.
So once the battery passes the cut out voltage for the Batteriser, no more smoke alarm! No warning!! This could cause a house to burn down and kill a family (for example).

Yep.
I don't know of any 1.5V smoke alarms though, but Batteriser are planing (and have promised to give out for free to backers) a 9V version  :scared:

I have some carbon monoxide alarms that run on 3x AAA cells.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 28, 2016, 10:33:58 am

Quote from: HKJ on December 28, 2016, 09:44:27 am

Quote from: TechnicalBen on December 28, 2016, 09:04:24 am

Long story short, check out Bigclivedotcom (his site, youtube or anyone else doing such tests) on total battery charge tests. So if you are very selective on your published results, it's easy to pretend even canned hot air would change a batteries performance!

Basically many brands vary off the charts all over the place. So a 800% difference is not surprising for the batteries, with or without a joule thief!  :bullshit:

Quality batteries are fairly consistent in capacity, only some cheap Chinese batteries varies significantly in capacity.
I have done 100's of battery tests here: http://www.lygte-info.dk/info/indexBatteriesAndChargers%20UK.html (http://www.lygte-info.dk/info/indexBatteriesAndChargers%20UK.html) (Use the links to comparators).

Yep, have been reading HKJ's reviews and posts on here and Candlepowerforum for years: Can confirm; he knows what he's talking about with this stuff.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on December 28, 2016, 10:37:06 am

Quote from: Blocco

.. I have some carbon monoxide alarms that run on 3x AAA cells

Perfect !! We'll ask Dave to loan you the batterpoos, and if you don't report back in a few weeks, we'll assume they failed without warning and you're dead ! :-)
Pretty definitive test :-) Not as spectacular as the smoke alarm scenario ... but the more mice (or canaries) the better :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: strangersound on December 28, 2016, 11:51:26 am

Watching the unboxing video I was shocked that the individual accused Dave of taking checks from a battery manufacturer, when it's obvious that the product is going to be sucking juice from the battery all the time even when the device being powered is off. And considering the toy train results, I'd be inclined to venture a guess that somebody is cashing checks from battery manufacturers and it's not Dave. ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 28, 2016, 11:53:14 am

Quote from: strangersound on December 28, 2016, 11:51:26 am

I'd be inclined to venture a guess that somebody is cashing checks from batteryBatteroo manufacturers and it's not Dave. ;)

FTFY.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: strangersound on December 28, 2016, 11:55:24 am

Quote from: Fungus on December 28, 2016, 11:53:14 am

Quote from: strangersound on December 28, 2016, 11:51:26 am

I'd be inclined to venture a guess that somebody is cashing checks from batteryBatteroo manufacturers and it's not Dave. ;)

FTFY.

Either way, but the way I stated sells more batteries, so... ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Svuppe on December 28, 2016, 12:07:09 pm

Quote from: CJay on December 28, 2016, 09:26:48 am

This is hilarious and has descended into the farce of snake oil sales, it's passed from 'This iracle product will give you 800% more life from your batteries' to 'Even though it didn't last as long in my own tests I feel people will still buy them because they want things to work full speed for less time'.

But, it can't even deliver better performance for less time. Have a closer look at the toy train test from Frank Buss. The train with the Batteroo sleeve runs marginally SLOWER than the one without it, right from the start. So (at least in this case) the Batteroo takes away both performance and duration  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GoneTomorrow on December 28, 2016, 12:20:37 pm

A 9V Batteroo is even more pointless than for any of the cylindrical cells. 9V batteries are almost exclusively used in extremely low load devices (I think I've only ever had a garage door remote and smoke alarms). By Batteroo's own admission the technology is no good for low-load devices, and as others have said, downright dangerous in a smoke alarm.

 :palm: if they ever ship the 9V one. They (hopefully) wouldn't even fit in smoke alarms given most of them I've seen have fairly tight battery compartments with interlock mechanisms and such, to deter modification. They would have to extend the battery by at least the height of the snap terminals plus PCB.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CJay on December 28, 2016, 12:37:43 pm

Quote from: Svuppe on December 28, 2016, 12:07:09 pm

Quote from: CJay on December 28, 2016, 09:26:48 am

This is hilarious and has descended into the farce of snake oil sales, it's passed from 'This iracle product will give you 800% more life from your batteries' to 'Even though it didn't last as long in my own tests I feel people will still buy them because they want things to work full speed for less time'.

But, it can't even deliver better performance for less time. Have a closer look at the toy train test from Frank Buss. The train with the Batteroo sleeve runs marginally SLOWER than the one without it, right from the start. So (at least in this case) the Batteroo takes away both performance and duration  :palm:

Marginally lower terminal voltage I suppose if it's 'fixed' at 1.5V, regardless, it's still a huge fail.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 28, 2016, 12:40:07 pm

Quote from: samgab on December 28, 2016, 10:33:58 am

Quote from: HKJ on December 28, 2016, 09:44:27 am

Quote from: TechnicalBen on December 28, 2016, 09:04:24 am

Long story short, check out Bigclivedotcom (his site, youtube or anyone else doing such tests) on total battery charge tests. So if you are very selective on your published results, it's easy to pretend even canned hot air would change a batteries performance!

Basically many brands vary off the charts all over the place. So a 800% difference is not surprising for the batteries, with or without a joule thief!  :bullshit:

Quality batteries are fairly consistent in capacity, only some cheap Chinese batteries varies significantly in capacity.
I have done 100's of battery tests here: http://www.lygte-info.dk/info/indexBatteriesAndChargers%20UK.html (http://www.lygte-info.dk/info/indexBatteriesAndChargers%20UK.html) (Use the links to comparators).

Yep, have been reading HKJ's reviews and posts on here and Candlepowerforum for years: Can confirm; he knows what he's talking about with this stuff.

I concur.
Without having to dig through the data, do you have a typical figure for variation in capacity of quality brand AA's and AAA's from the same batch?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 28, 2016, 12:42:38 pm

Quote from: digsys on December 28, 2016, 10:37:06 am

Quote from: Blocco

.. I have some carbon monoxide alarms that run on 3x AAA cells

Perfect !! We'll ask Dave to loan you the batterpoos, and if you don't report back in a few weeks, we'll assume they failed without warning and you're dead ! :-)
Pretty definitive test :-) Not as spectacular as the smoke alarm scenario ... but the more mice (or canaries) the better :-)

Schrodinger's battery  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on December 28, 2016, 12:58:55 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 28, 2016, 12:40:07 pm

I concur.
Without having to dig through the data, do you have a typical figure for variation in capacity of quality brand AA's and AAA's from the same batch?

I do not have data comparing multiple alkaline AA or AAA from same batch at same discharge current, but the discharge curves always shows up in the right sequence. I.e. 0.1A discharge always has more capacity than 0.2A discharge (Usual 10% to 20%), that would not be the case if there was huge variations between the cells.
It could be interesting to run a batch at same current and see how much variation there is.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AF6LJ on December 28, 2016, 01:09:10 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 28, 2016, 12:42:38 pm

Quote from: digsys on December 28, 2016, 10:37:06 am

Quote from: Blocco

.. I have some carbon monoxide alarms that run on 3x AAA cells

Perfect !! We'll ask Dave to loan you the batterpoos, and if you don't report back in a few weeks, we'll assume they failed without warning and you're dead ! :-)
Pretty definitive test :-) Not as spectacular as the smoke alarm scenario ... but the more mice (or canaries) the better :-)

Schrodinger's battery  ;D

I love that,
Funny as Hell.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on December 28, 2016, 01:15:46 pm

I don't know about fire detectors but every CO detector on boats I have come across uses 2xAA or 2xAAA batteries. CO detection is critical in small boats with cabins next to engine rooms.

My experience with boats owners makes anxious that it will be plausible scenario. Boat owners tend to like electronic gadgets...

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on December 28, 2016, 01:47:37 pm

Quote from: strangersound on December 28, 2016, 11:51:26 am

the individual accused Dave of taking checks from a battery manufacturer

At the same time Bob also accused Dave of only having a degree in performing arts  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 28, 2016, 02:09:01 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 28, 2016, 09:35:08 am

I don't know of any 1.5V smoke alarms though, but Batteriser are planing (and have promised to give out for free to backers) a 9V version  :scared:

I found a AA smoke alarm on Amazon, popular brand:
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FBQC1K/metafilter-20/ref=nosim/ (https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FBQC1K/metafilter-20/ref=nosim/)

 :scared:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 28, 2016, 02:18:48 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 28, 2016, 02:09:01 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 28, 2016, 09:35:08 am

I don't know of any 1.5V smoke alarms though, but Batteriser are planing (and have promised to give out for free to backers) a 9V version  :scared:

I found a AA smoke alarm on Amazon, popular brand:
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FBQC1K/metafilter-20/ref=nosim/ (https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FBQC1K/metafilter-20/ref=nosim/)

"Low-battery warning and convenient pullout battery drawer". Sounds perfect.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on December 28, 2016, 02:24:58 pm

The problem with smoke alarms is that it may take  them months (if not years) to deplet a battery's charge to the point they won't work again. Unless you start with an already used battery, whose initial state is unkown, I don't consider them a good test.

They are, however, useful in proving that using bateroos in them might render them useless, thus endangering those who rely on such alarms.

Again, and sorry for insisting on this, a constant current and/or constant power circuit, like the one I provided a few pages back, might provide a better test, since it can drain a battery in a very short time, and you can still program at with rate the battery is depleted, thus emulating several real world scenarios with a single testing device.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 28, 2016, 02:44:15 pm

The smoke alarms powered by a standard 9V battery usually run about 2-3 years. And we have plenty of them since they are mandatory in my state (Hessen).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: _Andrew_ on December 28, 2016, 02:44:56 pm

I don't know if this has come up before in this thread (search did not show anything and going back some 300 odd pages of posts does not appeal). So sorry just incase I am repeating something that has been already covered.

The dimensions of batteries are covered by international standards and from which I assume product manufacturers use the dimensional information from these standards to design the battery compartments with in products. For example IEE60086-2

http://bbs.sciencenet.cn/bbs/upload/15791IEC60086-2_%7B10 (http://bbs.sciencenet.cn/bbs/upload/15791IEC60086-2_%7B10)[1][1].1%7D(2001-10).pdf

I think I remember Dave saying something during his live cast that the batteriser may have problems with devices that have in built reverse polarity protection in the battery compartments, where by the nipple on the battery has to enter a receptacle specifically designed for it.

I can certainly see people having problems with devices that they attempt to return under warranty after hacking up the battery compartment to try and wedge a batteriser in.

I the past when I have attempted to make current measurements on battery powered devices by trying to wedge a thin bit of double side copper clad pcb to break out a connection. The battery compartments have been very well designed to hold the batteries firmly in place leving only the minimum space required for inserting and removing them. So wedging anything elce in there is either a fight or almost impossible.

As for makers of batteriser going to product manufacturers to ask them to make the battery compartments more of a sloppy fit. I can see this going somewhere down the lines of "our battery compartments will accept any appropriate battery that complies to the dimensional caricaturists of relevant international standards" or something along those lines.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CJay on December 28, 2016, 02:56:00 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on December 28, 2016, 02:24:58 pm

The problem with smoke alarms is that it may take  them months (if not years) to deplet a battery's charge to the point they won't work again. Unless you start with an already used battery, whose initial state is unkown, I don't consider them a good test.

They are, however, useful in proving that using bateroos in them might render them useless, thus endangering those who rely on such alarms.

Again, and sorry for insisting on this, a constant current and/or constant power circuit, like the one I provided a few pages back, might provide a better test, since it can drain a battery in a very short time, and you can still program at with rate the battery is depleted, thus emulating several real world scenarios with a single testing device.

True but they take an awful lot of current (relatively) when they're sounding so that'd be a possible test?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 28, 2016, 03:03:32 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on December 28, 2016, 02:24:58 pm

The problem with smoke alarms is that it may take  them months (if not years) to deplet a battery's charge to the point they won't work again.

Yep, but it should be easy to demonstrate if Batteroo prevents their 'low battery' alert from working (or not).

It's also easy to figure out if Batteroo will reduce the overall battery life (or not). We can measure the detector's current requirements at different voltages (ie. see if it uses more at 1.5V than 1.2V), we can also measure Batteroo's inefficiencies at the load created by the detector, do the math.

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on December 28, 2016, 02:24:58 pm

Unless you start with an already used battery, whose initial state is unkown, I don't consider them a good test.

The important test would be to see if the detector dies suddenly or not, ie. how long will the battery warning light up compared to a non-batterood battery?

If a non-batterood battery goes for weeks after the low-battery warning lights up and a batterood battery only goes for a few hours, then ... it's dangerous.
 
Dave has devices which can discharge a battery until it reaches a known voltage. If we know the detectors alert voltage then Dave can discharge a battery to that voltage, let it recover, repeat a few times at ever-lower currents. It's a bit of a pain to do but it will give a battery which is about to go into a death spiral.

Maybe it'll turn out that those detectors light up when the battery is only 60%-70% used (as a safety measure). Batteroo will be a total failure if that's the case.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 28, 2016, 03:06:37 pm

Quote from: CJay on December 28, 2016, 02:56:00 pm

True but they take an awful lot of current (relatively) when they're sounding so that'd be a possible test?

That would be another good reason to turn on the 'battery alert' when the battery is only 50% used - to make sure there's at least an hour or so of loud noises.

A Batterood alarm could easily die as soon as the siren starts.

A high cutoff voltage can be a feature instead of a bug.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on December 28, 2016, 03:32:43 pm

Quote from: _Andrew_ on December 28, 2016, 02:44:56 pm

I don't know if this has come up before in this thread (search did not show anything and going back some 300 odd pages of posts does not appeal). So sorry just incase I am repeating something that has been already covered.

The dimensions of batteries are covered by international standards and from which I assume product manufacturers use the dimensional information from these standards to design the battery compartments with in products. For example IEE60086-2

http://bbs.sciencenet.cn/bbs/upload/15791IEC60086-2_%7B10 (http://bbs.sciencenet.cn/bbs/upload/15791IEC60086-2_%7B10)[1][1].1%7D(2001-10).pdf

I think I remember Dave saying something during his live cast that the batteriser may have problems with devices that have in built reverse polarity protection in the battery compartments, where by the nipple on the battery has to enter a receptacle specifically designed for it.

I can certainly see people having problems with devices that they attempt to return under warranty after hacking up the battery compartment to try and wedge a batteriser in.

I the past when I have attempted to make current measurements on battery powered devices by trying to wedge a thin bit of double side copper clad pcb to break out a connection. The battery compartments have been very well designed to hold the batteries firmly in place leving only the minimum space required for inserting and removing them. So wedging anything elce in there is either a fight or almost impossible.

As for makers of batteriser going to product manufacturers to ask them to make the battery compartments more of a sloppy fit. I can see this going somewhere down the lines of "our battery compartments will accept any appropriate battery that complies to the dimensional caricaturists of relevant international standards" or something along those lines.

Bob claimed in his last comment that the batteriser only ads 0.35 mm to the length of a battery. That seems impossible to me, firstly it ads 0.1mm to the bottom (minus) side, the PCB is lying on the plus terminal, and on top of that the construct a new terminal. That new terminal has to be at least 0.8mm for AAA, and 1mm for AA, according to your document. So I'd say the batteriser adds between 1 and 1.5 mm to the length of a battery.

IF Batteroo ever contact manufacturer's they could also react with: "Our product does not benefit from your batteriser, in fact we highly recomment our customers NOT to use such a device".
Or they just react with:  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on December 28, 2016, 04:18:21 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 28, 2016, 03:06:37 pm

A Batterood alarm could easily die as soon as the siren starts.

My thoughts exactly after reading Fungus' reply to my post. In that case, stating that batteroo is good for smoke detectors is criminal, to say the least.

Instead of having manufacturers work with Bob to have their battery compartments fit batteries with batteroo (like Bob childishly think they will do), what we might see are warning notices stating that use of batteroo is not recommended, voids warranty and limits any liability resulting of malfunction.

As far as AA batteries go, nothing replace a few sets of Panasonic Eneloops Black.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BoomBrush on December 28, 2016, 05:30:47 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 28, 2016, 09:35:08 am

I don't know of any 1.5V smoke alarms though, but Batteriser are planing (and have promised to give out for free to backers) a 9V version  :scared:

Whoops, I was meant to add an acknowledgement in my post about how most smoke alarms use 9V cells and that my talk about 1.5-1.6v was just to illustrate a "full" battery. Forgot about that.

I sure hope they don't make a 9v battery version, although it was certainly interesting to learn that some smoke alarms will take AAAs and AAs. Didn't know that. That kinda worries me, as pointed out by firewalker that people can be putting Batterisers into alarms on boats.

Perhaps Batteriser should put a "don't use this in any life critical product like a smoke alarm" sticker on the products and website. It's gonna be interesting when there's a fire somewhere and the investigation shows a batteriser was involved, like it over heated or an alarm didnt go off.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TechnicalBen on December 28, 2016, 06:02:59 pm

How? I know very few devices it would fit into without heavy modification. 9v often has a snug fit holder for the battery, and clip on terminals. You MAY get away with some give in the terminals, but nothing that would allow a second clip... nothing thin enough could bridge the clips either, without risking breaking them, could it?

[edit]
Hmmm... looking at pictures you may be able to fit a small additional plug between the two.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 28, 2016, 07:07:43 pm

I predict that A 9V PP3 Batterooooo will never become a reality and I'm sure they regret ever mentioning it in the first place; I think it was just some glib comment designed to appease impatient backers. All the issues with the single cell Batterooooos will put an end to this new nonsense. :horse:

Even if they manage to convince some gullible retailer that they should stock this crap on a sale or return basis, the 90% return rate will have them pulling them off the shelves faster than Bob Rhubarb can invent new excuses.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dcac on December 28, 2016, 07:29:10 pm

It seems ‘interconnected’ smoke-alarms often use AA batteries as the radio connection uses  considerable more current than what a 9V battery can provide for being a practical solution. And even then the annoyance factor with frequent AA battery changes seems pretty high, from what I heard about every 3-6 month instead of 1-2 years that the standard 9V smoke-alarm usually lasts.

So yes people will be tempted to use Batterisers on smoke-alarms and I do not for a nanosecond believe Batteroo will be issuing any kind of warning about doing so.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 28, 2016, 09:21:44 pm

Quote from: dcac on December 28, 2016, 07:29:10 pm

So yes people will be tempted to use Batterisers on smoke-alarms and I do not for a nanosecond believe Batteroo will be issuing any kind of warning about doing so.

Luckily Batteroo won't be able to claim they didn't know about the problem when they sure. We know they read this.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 28, 2016, 10:11:19 pm

I was contacted by someone at the California fulfilment center the shipped the Batterisers (they are an EEVblog viewer) and they said:

Quote

We're using FIMS which uses FedExs services but injects them into the local postal service's system and they deliver it for them.

My tracking number doesn't work yet because it's the holiday season.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 28, 2016, 10:22:23 pm

Given that I only have today and tomorrow left, I think I will complete my single shot train test this morning (should take a few hours, needs personal monitoring) and then I'll have enough material to put together an "initial product test results" video. This won't include the performance testing with the gear. I'll start on that after I edit that video. If I have time that will go up before I go away, otherwise it'll have to wait.
I think it's important to get the product testing up, as that's the only thing that Joe Public understands.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 28, 2016, 10:37:34 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 28, 2016, 10:22:23 pm

I think it's important to get the product testing up, as that's the only thing that Joe Public understands.

I agree and I also want to see product testing first.  Can't wait for the monkey test.  A suggestion  - post raw video of the Monkey playing the cymbals and let a forum member come up with an electronic counter.  (if you can stand the noise)  Hint pay your kids to listen to it ha ha ha  and let you know when it stops.  Seems the kitchen floor would be a good place.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on December 28, 2016, 10:44:26 pm

It's really happening!  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03C4tnCFEMQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03C4tnCFEMQ)

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on December 29, 2016, 12:23:20 am

Quote from: firewalker on December 28, 2016, 01:15:46 pm

I don't know about fire detectors but every CO detector on boats I have come across uses 2xAA or 2xAAA batteries. CO detection is critical in small boats with cabins next to engine rooms.

My experience with boats owners makes anxious that it will be plausible scenario. Boat owners tend to like electronic gadgets...

Alexander.

My nest protects use 6x lithium AA batteries - no way in hell I'm putting my family at risk with these snake oil sleeves tho!

It would prolly be interesting to use for testing tho as you can use the app for monitoring the battery and use a servo to keep it awake and chatting via Wi-Fi.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on December 29, 2016, 01:43:21 am

After not working since they sent the shipment notification email on the 22nd, my tracking number from Batteroo just started tracking today (on PostNord.se and Japan Post, but USPS still doesn't know about it). It says it left Sweden yesterday (the 28th)

edit:

Quote from: EEVblog on December 28, 2016, 10:11:19 pm

I was contacted by someone at the California fulfilment center the shipped the Batterisers (they are an EEVblog viewer) and they said:

Quote

We're using FIMS which uses FedExs services but injects them into the local postal service's system and they deliver it for them.

My tracking number doesn't work yet because it's the holiday season.

It looks like my tracking number does work with FedEx, it's just their link in the email is broken

In the email it looks like this

Code: [Select]

http://mailviewrecipient.fedex.com/recip_package_summary.aspx?PostalID=RE123123123SEAWB=123123123123ShippedDate=12/21/2016
You need to fix it by adding ampersands like this

Code: [Select]

http://mailviewrecipient.fedex.com/recip_package_summary.aspx?PostalID=RE123123123SE&AWB=123123123123&ShippedDate=12/21/2016

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on December 29, 2016, 03:37:40 am

That's a hell of a re-route.... or is it? I have little experience with international shipping but Boob & Co. sure seems to be using the most dubious postal method available  |O

Side note : are you Japanese kalleboo? just curious

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on December 29, 2016, 05:47:22 am

Quote from: Luminax on December 29, 2016, 03:37:40 am

That's a hell of a re-route.... or is it? I have little experience with international shipping but Boob & Co. sure seems to be using the most dubious postal method available  |O

Dave details when he ended up with the same shipper that send things through Sweden: http://www.eevblog.com/2013/12/31/traps-for-even-simple-successful-crowd-funded-projects/ (http://www.eevblog.com/2013/12/31/traps-for-even-simple-successful-crowd-funded-projects/)

Quote from: Luminax on December 29, 2016, 03:37:40 am

Side note : are you Japanese kalleboo? just curious

Nope, just married to one :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 29, 2016, 05:53:38 am

UPDATE!
After all this time, Batteroo have finally contacted me directly.
Turns out they were watching the live testing show were I mentioned they have never contacted me, so they did, Ali BTW (not Bob).
They were very cordial and invited me to do formal testing for them.
I turned them down.
But ironically I'm already doing that for them already  ;D

They claim to have "good results" of testing from various common products including a toy train. I have asked them to release the results publicly, let's see if they do that.
I'd love to see the results of the toy train, because the results from both mine and Frank's testing on different toy trains has been nothing short of a horrible result.

So yeah, that just happened  :o

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 29, 2016, 05:56:49 am

Quote from: kalleboo on December 29, 2016, 05:47:22 am

Quote from: Luminax on December 29, 2016, 03:37:40 am

That's a hell of a re-route.... or is it? I have little experience with international shipping but Boob & Co. sure seems to be using the most dubious postal method available  |O

Dave details when he ended up with the same shipper that send things through Sweden: http://www.eevblog.com/2013/12/31/traps-for-even-simple-successful-crowd-funded-projects/ (http://www.eevblog.com/2013/12/31/traps-for-even-simple-successful-crowd-funded-projects/)

Yep, this shipping company is horrible. But likely out of Batteroo's control, just like it was for me. I didn't even deal with this company directly, my fulfilment house decided to use them and did not tell me. I only found out after the first orders started dribbling in many weeks late, and they were post marked from Sweden. Wouldn't be surprised if the same happened to Batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: johndoe123 on December 29, 2016, 06:03:44 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 29, 2016, 05:53:38 am

They were very cordial and invited me to do formal testing for them.
I turned them down.

paid testing?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 29, 2016, 06:43:05 am

Quote from: johndoe123 on December 29, 2016, 06:03:44 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 29, 2016, 05:53:38 am

They were very cordial and invited me to do formal testing for them.
I turned them down.

paid testing?

Without being too cynical - that's quite likely - having Dave test to meet 'their' stated goals.
No luck buddy.
I was also just wondering of the 'holiday' shipment schedule may have been a subtle ploy to divert attention from the hundreds of backers that
a) haven't received their product, and the
b) publicity around the forum's test results

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BoomBrush on December 29, 2016, 07:23:26 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 29, 2016, 05:53:38 am

They claim to have "good results" of testing from various common products including a toy train. I have asked them to release the results publicly, let's see if they do that.
I'd love to see the results of the toy train, because the results from both mine and Frank's testing on different toy trains has been nothing short of a horrible result.

Be careful with the results they give, seeing as their "tests" so far have given fake results, or at least `unreliable` ones that go in their favor.

Smoke alarms I've seen have those vinyl 9V clips that you push onto the battery, THEN you push the whole lot into a small rectangular slot. I've got another alarm that has metal contacts in the plastic and you just shove the battery into it. I doubt any sort of "batteriser" fixture would even fit, thank god.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Scottjd on December 29, 2016, 07:31:07 am

Quote from: SL4P on December 29, 2016, 06:43:05 am

Quote from: johndoe123 on December 29, 2016, 06:03:44 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 29, 2016, 05:53:38 am

They were very cordial and invited me to do formal testing for them.
I turned them down.

paid testing?

When you accept to test for a company "paid or not" they usually would request you sign a document before releasing any internal finding, results or test data. The catch is the document probably would have given them control on what Dave would have been allowed to release from his tests to the public or not. They were probably hoping Dave would agree and not read the fine print. Then hang that over him when he goes to release data from his test that the company doesn't agree with.
I think it was their slide of hand trying to stops Dave's testing from going public using legal mambo jumbo buried in fine print in a contract.
Well that's what they were probably hoping for, but Dave turned them down so it doesn't matter.
Scott

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Scottjd on December 29, 2016, 07:36:38 am

Quote from: BoomBrush on December 29, 2016, 07:23:26 am

Smoke alarms I've seen have those vinyl 9V clips that you push onto the battery, THEN you push the whole lot into a small rectangular slot. I've got another alarm that has metal contacts in the plastic and you just shove the battery into it. I doubt any sort of "batteriser" fixture would even fit, thank god.

My concern would be the carbon monoxide detectors. The ones installed by me, and one installed by a contractor to meet code when they replaced the hot water heater all take AA batteries. They last about 2 years before the low power beep starts to chirp. These are metal flaps that could fit the battery and the batteroo in the compartment. I hope no one decided to use this product on something that could put a life at risk, but not everyone is that smart. After all people are buying these things.
Scott

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 29, 2016, 07:38:06 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 29, 2016, 05:53:38 am

They claim to have "good results" of testing from various common products including a toy train.

That would be "Wayne's" train video.

(Not actually made by Wayne, obviously, and only posted on Facebook AFAIK)

Quote from: EEVblog on December 29, 2016, 05:53:38 am

I have asked them to release the results publicly, let's see if they do that.

The video is only 2 minutes long, taken from the middle of a test, and could really be showing anything at all.  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 29, 2016, 07:42:06 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 29, 2016, 05:53:38 am

UPDATE!
After all this time, Batteroo have finally contacted me directly.
Turns out they were watching the live testing show

Did they stay up all night to watch your little show?  :-DD :-DD

If they've conned somebody into giving them enough money for production then their major remaining problem is that a "batteroo is bullshit" page appears when you google them.

I'm sure the Batteroo Brothers are gaming google as hard as they can, we need to do the same.

Quote from: EEVblog on December 29, 2016, 05:53:38 am

They were very cordial and invited me to do formal testing for them.
I turned them down.

Under what conditions? NDA and with them choosing the devices and editing/cherry picking the results?

I don't think there's any way they're going to pay you to do exactly what you're about to do.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on December 29, 2016, 07:45:12 am

Quote from: Scottjd on December 29, 2016, 07:31:07 am

When you accept to test for a company "paid or not" they usually would request you sign a document before releasing any internal finding, results or test data.

No, some of the stuff I test I get from companies, but I have never signed any documents. It is very seldom companies try to setup conditions.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Scottjd on December 29, 2016, 08:04:26 am

Quote from: HKJ on December 29, 2016, 07:45:12 am

Quote from: Scottjd on December 29, 2016, 07:31:07 am

When you accept to test for a company "paid or not" they usually would request you sign a document before releasing any internal finding, results or test data.

No, some of the stuff I test I get from companies, but I have never signed any documents. It is very seldom companies try to setup conditions.

I'm not saying all companies do this, but it's common for companies to provide items to YouTube content providers and try to regulate the review data. I've had to sing documents and NDA for things I have worked on and tested in the past. But it wouldn't supprise me if they tried this with Dave.
He has even mentioned in another video in the past when requesting test result data that one company was willing to share the data but not until he signed a document saying he wouldn't share the data. I don't remember what video that was, maybe the solar panel streets?

FYI, This is nothing to do with my reviews on my channel. I've never signed anything for my channel reviews. This testing is something I did on the side in the past and items I don't do reviews on.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Scottjd on December 29, 2016, 08:07:18 am

Quote from: Scottjd on December 29, 2016, 08:04:26 am

Quote from: HKJ on December 29, 2016, 07:45:12 am

Quote from: Scottjd on December 29, 2016, 07:31:07 am

When you accept to test for a company "paid or not" they usually would request you sign a document before releasing any internal finding, results or test data.

No, some of the stuff I test I get from companies, but I have never signed any documents. It is very seldom companies try to setup conditions.

I'm not saying all companies do this, but it's common for companies to provide items to YouTube content providers and try to regulate the review data. I've had to sing documents and NDA for things I have worked on and tested in the past. But it wouldn't supprise me if they tried this with Dave.
He has even mentioned in another video in the past when requesting test result data that one company was willing to share the data but not until he signed a document saying he wouldn't share tkhe data. I don't remember what video that was, maybe the solar panel streets?

FYI, This is nothing to do with my reviews on my channel. I've never signed anything for my channel reviews. This testing is something I did on the side in the past and items I don't do reviews on.

I should have mentioned it depends on what kind of testing you are doing for a company. Development testing, preproduction testing, or just reviewing something. For reviews it's rare they ask for you to sing a document, but not unheard of and has happened with some YouTube review channels. But it's more common on testing products that sometimes don't even make it to market, these are the ones I'm talking about most of the time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 29, 2016, 08:24:15 am

Quote from: Scottjd on December 29, 2016, 08:04:26 am

....my channel.

FYI I added you to the YT list

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/other-blog-specific/dd/msg1093983/#msg1093983 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/other-blog-specific/dd/msg1093983/#msg1093983)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 29, 2016, 08:57:56 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 29, 2016, 05:53:38 am

They claim to have "good results" of testing from various common products including a toy train. I have asked them to release the results publicly, let's see if they do that.
I'd love to see the results of the toy train, because the results from both mine and Frank's testing on different toy trains has been nothing short of a horrible result.

Wayne didn't know the exact model of the train when I asked him on Facebook, but they might have used a train with AA batteries, and the track was different. Apparently they measured and recorded lap count and lap times with an expensive looking photoelectric barrier, but I think the fact that they didn't release the full data or a diagram of it so far means that it wouldn't look too good for them. And they used two different trains in their test side by side. I don't want to accuse them that they added a resistor or something in the train without the sleeve, but the trains could be just different. Not a good test setup.

Maybe next they'll say, our tests were done with old pre-production "Batteriser" sleeves instead of the good new "Batteroo" ones.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on December 29, 2016, 09:07:17 am

But that would mean, that they admit that they did send pre production samples to the customers instead "good new ones".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on December 29, 2016, 09:30:01 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 29, 2016, 05:53:38 am

UPDATE!
After all this time, Batteroo have finally contacted me directly.
Turns out they were watching the live testing show were I mentioned they have never contacted me, so they did, Ali BTW (not Bob).
They were very cordial and invited me to do formal testing for them.
I turned them down.
But ironically I'm already doing that for them already  ;D

They claim to have "good results" of testing from various common products including a toy train. I have asked them to release the results publicly, let's see if they do that.
I'd love to see the results of the toy train, because the results from both mine and Frank's testing on different toy trains has been nothing short of a horrible result.

So yeah, that just happened  :o

If anyone remember from all the past soap opera episodes... this "Ali" person seems to be the PR face and could have been - no proof so far has surfaced but we can only wonder - the very same person on the 'fan page' youtube channel, or have some kind of inkling to that person, or was the employer of said person. Meanwhile, Boob and Pranky disappeared after their "hard work and gruelling task" of releasing a snail video  :-DD

In fact... I don't think we've seen even the slightest shadow of Pranky have we? aside from the mention some tens or pages previously that he has jumped ship, or have had a 'dual' partnership somewhere else (I do remember it's the same bullshit smelling company as batteroo is)

Regardless, I have tons of exciting new content waiting for me when I get home yippeeeee  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on December 29, 2016, 09:42:00 am

I think its time that dave is getting an exclusive popcorn sponsor   >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on December 29, 2016, 10:14:44 am

Quote from: BoomBrush on December 29, 2016, 07:23:26 am

Smoke alarms I've seen have those vinyl 9V clips that you push onto the battery, THEN you push the whole lot into a small rectangular slot. I've got another alarm that has metal contacts in the plastic and you just shove the battery into it. I doubt any sort of "batteriser" fixture would even fit, thank god.

Mine have plenty of space for a Batteriser, the battery is only held in by 2 plastic fingers. Plenty of space to put something on top.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on December 29, 2016, 10:15:08 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 29, 2016, 08:57:56 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 29, 2016, 05:53:38 am

They claim to have "good results" of testing from various common products including a toy train. I have asked them to release the results publicly, let's see if they do that.
I'd love to see the results of the toy train, because the results from both mine and Frank's testing on different toy trains has been nothing short of a horrible result.

Wayne didn't know the exact model of the train when I asked him on Facebook, but they might have used a train with AA batteries, and the track was different. Apparently they measured and recorded lap count and lap times with an expensive looking photoelectric barrier, but I think the fact that they didn't release the full data or a diagram of it so far means that it wouldn't look too good for them. And they used two different trains in their test side by side. I don't want to accuse them that they added a resistor or something in the train without the sleeve, but the trains could be just different. Not a good test setup.

Maybe next they'll say, our tests were done with old pre-production "Batteriser" sleeves instead of the good new "Batteroo" ones.

The test that Wayne showed was a total fail for the batteriser if you ask me. The train ran for 4h55 with the batteriser, and 7h55 without. That's -37%. The batteriser was sold as a product to save on batteries, and in this case you are gonna need more. So instead of disrupting the battery industry, Big battery will now say "Thank you oh so very much!"

As for the speed. Wayne argues that after 5 hours the train without batteriser might be unacceptable slow (23.6 without vs 32.5 with). And I disagree. This is just a toy for a 4yo. These kids are not gonna compare the train to another one that does have a fresh battery, or measure lap times, or count laps. And after 5 hours (which are gonna spread out over days or weeks in reality) the kid will probably not know anymore how fast the train was going with a fresh battery.

And yes are products on which it is desirable to maintain a certain speed, and the batteriser could be beneficial even with a shortened life. But than show those products, because those product were probably designed with other goals than toy trains.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 29, 2016, 10:26:12 am

Quote from: Luminax on December 29, 2016, 09:30:01 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 29, 2016, 05:53:38 am

UPDATE!
After all this time, Batteroo have finally contacted me directly.
Turns out they were watching the live testing show were I mentioned they have never contacted me, so they did, Ali BTW (not Bob).
They were very cordial and invited me to do formal testing for them.
I turned them down.
But ironically I'm already doing that for them already  ;D

They claim to have "good results" of testing from various common products including a toy train. I have asked them to release the results publicly, let's see if they do that.
I'd love to see the results of the toy train, because the results from both mine and Frank's testing on different toy trains has been nothing short of a horrible result.

So yeah, that just happened  :o

If anyone remember from all the past soap opera episodes... this "Ali" person seems to be the PR face and could have been - no proof so far has surfaced but we can only wonder - the very same person on the 'fan page' youtube channel, or have some kind of inkling to that person, or was the employer of said person. Meanwhile, Boob and Pranky disappeared after their "hard work and gruelling task" of releasing a snail video  :-DD

In fact... I don't think we've seen even the slightest shadow of Pranky have we? aside from the mention some tens or pages previously that he has jumped ship, or have had a 'dual' partnership somewhere else (I do remember it's the same bullshit smelling company as batteroo is)

Regardless, I have tons of exciting new content waiting for me when I get home yippeeeee  :popcorn:

Hmm, yes, you're right, Ali Roohparvar was the nephew of one of them IIRC. https://www.linkedin.com/in/5starwatchesonline (https://www.linkedin.com/in/5starwatchesonline)

Here's a blast from the past:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=186594;image)
-Source: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg818585/#msg818585 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg818585/#msg818585)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on December 29, 2016, 10:42:18 am

OMG ! You can't make stuff like this up? Speechless .. I'm guessing these comments were deleted? :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 29, 2016, 10:43:06 am

Why are Batteroo asking Dave to do testing now?

You're meant to do that in the prototyping stages, not after production and shipping....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GoneTomorrow on December 29, 2016, 10:47:12 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 29, 2016, 10:43:06 am

Why are Batteroo asking Dave to do testing now?

You're meant to do that in the prototyping stages, not after production and shipping....

By asking Dave to do formal testing, they likely were hoping for some kind of NDA agreement against releasing results without them being vetted by Batteroo themselves. They know full well that Dave's unbiased results are going to be embarrassing.


On a side note, only 300 odd more posts until this is the most replied thread on this forum  8)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 29, 2016, 10:49:50 am

Quote from: digsys on December 29, 2016, 10:42:18 am

OMG ! You can't make stuff like this up? Speechless .. I'm guessing these comments were deleted? :-)

Yeah definitely, they were gone a short time later. But in the age of the internet, nothing is really gone... There was more to this saga, but not worth rehashing it all.
Strange that after all this time a couple of years, it just happens that only 1 day after Dave finally receives his first sleeves, he is contacted for the first time by Batteroo... Interesting timing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 29, 2016, 12:15:31 pm

It's just occurred to me that Batteriser have now finally been as honest and realistic as they have ever been in their marketing.
They have moved from the whole 800% and x8 BS to the 80% unused (x5) BS, to now the "performance or extra time" tradeoff marketing on active vs passive loads which is basically true at it's face value.

Passive loads like the toy train should perform better for a shorter period, and I've demoed that in my train video. And of course it's one of the reasons why DC-DC converters are built into products like almost all torches now. But in the example of the train it's not going to be a huge difference, but still, it's there. You trade off performance for time.

Active loads is were the BS still stinks though, as they are still pushing the line that devices have high cut off voltages and that 80% of energy remains unused etc, and that's completely busted, but still would be technically true in a few niche products they have still yet to demo after several years at this.

It's interesting to see how their claims and marketing have changed over all this time, and seems a classic case of them now finally realising the reality of how useless this product is practice. Yet they are so far down the rabbit hole that they still can't admit it, but their marketing has had to morph to the reality over time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 29, 2016, 12:26:57 pm

Just had a though, what if somebody uses these on a rechargeable cell, and put it into the charger with the Batteroo still connected, and it is one of those lovely low cost Big Clive style chargers, which use a capacitive dropper to charge the cells. Wonder what will die first, the chip or the capacitors, and just how much current can a NimH cell provide into a shorted stainless steel clip.

Was also looking at places that would fit a Batteroo, and aside from a battery charger, that takes both AA and AAA that uses a spring clip, nothing will fit them, some even are fussy about taking certain cells, as the positive pip is too short. And yes, I do have a CO detector ( $5 from China delivered, not seen them locally at all, so I ordered 2, must look inside the one) that uses 3 AAA cells ,and it came with OHL Fong Kong blanded ones, which seem to work, though I bet they will be making a loud beep sometime, and I will replace with Energiser ones.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JonF on December 29, 2016, 01:52:39 pm

Somewhat surprised that "Big battery" haven't offered to pay Dave to stop discrediting this so they can cash in...

Great work BTW,  this needs to be stopped before it finds its way into safety devices.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on December 29, 2016, 02:03:10 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 29, 2016, 05:53:38 am

UPDATE!
After all this time, Batteroo have finally contacted me directly.
Turns out they were watching the live testing show were I mentioned they have never contacted me, so they did, Ali BTW (not Bob).

Dammit! If I knew they're watching, I'd have written several messages directed at them in the chat window.

Quote

They were very cordial and invited me to do formal testing for them.

And cordial they should be, not matter how impossible it is for them to be cordial. They've been, so far, anything but cordial, polite or respectful, and that goes for that brown-nosed doormat of theirs, the guy doem Darwin.

Quote

I turned them down.
But ironically I'm already doing that for them already  ;D

You're doing an independent test, without any restrains, without any obligation with batteroo.

If you do anything on their behalf, and get you to sign a NDA, rest assured that the first thing they'll do is to try and cash in on the market value of the words: "Tested by EEVBLOG".

OTOH, if you can turn this around, and have them free you to publish any result you want, and force them to publish all of your results and final report on their website, it might be a good idea.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on December 29, 2016, 02:14:40 pm

https://www.batteroo.com/contest (https://www.batteroo.com/contest)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on December 29, 2016, 02:15:58 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 29, 2016, 12:15:31 pm

It's just occurred to me that Batteriser have now finally been as honest and realistic as they have ever been in their marketing.
They have moved from the whole 800% and x8 BS to the 80% unused (x5) BS, to now the "performance or extra time" tradeoff marketing on active vs passive loads which is basically true at it's face value.

Passive loads like the toy train should perform better for a shorter period, and I've demoed that in my train video. And of course it's one of the reasons why DC-DC converters are built into products like almost all torches now. But in the example of the train it's not going to be a huge difference, but still, it's there. You trade off performance for time.

Active loads is were the BS still stinks though, as they are still pushing the line that devices have high cut off voltages and that 80% of energy remains unused etc, and that's completely busted, but still would be technically true in a few niche products they have still yet to demo after several years at this.

It's interesting to see how their claims and marketing have changed over all this time, and seems a classic case of them now finally realising the reality of how useless this product is practice. Yet they are so far down the rabbit hole that they still can't admit it, but their marketing has had to morph to the reality over time.

My guess would be that they're ticking out of time for the first VC and is getting weird glances or even downright weird questioning from the second VC...

Usually, from my limitted experience with these kind of things, they have a 'timeframe' whereupon the VC would no doubt want to see some sort of return or at least a prospect of a return. The delay to the inevitable was probably due to the fact that it's not the main HQ that's stepping their feet into a deep pool of doo-doo so to speak, but instead the US branch, and from what I've seen these 'branches' usually runs almost entirely independent and HQ doesn't care as long as it's not a world-shattering loss.

The second VC however... hmmmmmmmm

There might have been a few people who were initially jumping on the 'gravy train' that went  :palm: somewhere along the way.
I do remember there has been some reshuffle and something somewhere along the line/

But meh.... business... I'm usually either :scared: or :palm: or just plain  |O on that front

Edit: I just noticed the contest link... WTF??

NEED TO SUBMIT TO WIN GREAT PRIZE!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_a1YJ_yZug (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_a1YJ_yZug)
 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 29, 2016, 02:39:12 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on December 29, 2016, 02:03:10 pm

You're doing an independent test, without any restrains, without any obligation with batteroo.

If you do anything on their behalf, and get you to sign a NDA, rest assured that the first thing they'll do is to try and cash in on the market value of the words: "Tested by EEVBLOG".

OTOH, if you can turn this around, and have them free you to publish any result you want, and force them to publish all of your results and final report on their website, it might be a good idea.

Never will happen, they would cherrypick results and put that up, never mind the rest of the dismal results. Yes there would be a NDA for sure, and we all know just how Dave responds to those, I think in the lines of Bender and his shiny metal backside.

I prefer the individual test results, and if Batterpoo wants to send some my way, I can test them, the arc welder is fine, the neon transformer is plugged in , and Gentle persuasion needs some exercise.on the rail slipper.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on December 29, 2016, 02:39:24 pm

Quote from: PeterL on December 29, 2016, 02:14:40 pm

https://www.batteroo.com/contest (https://www.batteroo.com/contest)

"a chance to win our $500 pre-paid gift cards."

It says *our* prepaid gift cards. Does that mean it's only valid for $500 worth of more Batteroos?

Or does "our gift cards" mean the ones they got as Christmas presents and don't need because they're only valid at Bed Bath and Beyond?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on December 29, 2016, 02:57:26 pm

Quote from: kalleboo on December 29, 2016, 02:39:24 pm

Quote from: PeterL on December 29, 2016, 02:14:40 pm

https://www.batteroo.com/contest (https://www.batteroo.com/contest)

"a chance to win our $500 pre-paid gift cards."

It says *our* prepaid gift cards. Does that mean it's only valid for $500 worth of more Batteroos?

Or does "our gift cards" mean the ones they got as Christmas presents and don't need because they're only valid at Bed Bath and Beyond?

Oh yeah, I was only triggered by the $500,-, and wasn't going to play anyway, even if I had sleeves.
But the "terms and conditions" are very clear:
https://www.batteroo.com/terms-conditions/?___store=default#contest (https://www.batteroo.com/terms-conditions/?___store=default#contest)

Quote

PRIZES.

One (1) Prize winner will receive $500 USD.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 29, 2016, 03:07:14 pm

Quote from: kalleboo on December 29, 2016, 02:39:24 pm

Quote from: PeterL on December 29, 2016, 02:14:40 pm

https://www.batteroo.com/contest (https://www.batteroo.com/contest)

"a chance to win our $500 pre-paid gift cards."

It says *our* prepaid gift cards. Does that mean it's only valid for $500 worth of more Batteroos?

Or does "our gift cards" mean the ones they got as Christmas presents and don't need because they're only valid at Bed Bath and Beyond?

Probably a mix of both. $500 off a bulk load of Batteriser at full recommended retail ( which you never pay anyway), but you have to pay an inflated shipping price, and they will chuck some random cards from some obscure retail store in there for the rest of them, probably those which came as gifts and which are of no use to them " Hey what do I do with a $500 voucher for the East side Vasectomy clinic 2 for one special?" style

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on December 29, 2016, 03:16:37 pm

Quote from: PeterL on December 29, 2016, 02:14:40 pm

https://www.batteroo.com/contest (https://www.batteroo.com/contest)

And let's not forget what happens to your video if you win:

Furthermore, winners will be required to sign and return a “Transfer of Copyright” form as requested by Sponsor. Winners hereby acknowledges and understands that under such Transfer of Copyright form, he/she will be assigning exclusively, irrevocably, and in perpetuity, and on a royalty-free basis to Sponsor (or to Sponsor’s affiliates) all copyright ownership and all other proprietary rights in and to his/her Video, such that Sponsor (and its affiliates) will have the unrestricted right to edit the Video in any manner and to use (or not use) the Video for any and all purposes whatsoever (including, without limitation, the creation of derivative works, and/or any and all other forms of commercial or non-commercial exploitation), regardless of whether or not related to the Contest.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on December 29, 2016, 03:24:43 pm

"will have the unrestricted right to edit the Video in any manner "

Really? Is that how they turn a faillure into a profit?  :wtf:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Julius on December 29, 2016, 03:54:38 pm

Looks like Julian found a product which theoretically could benefit from Batteriser (but I am sure the batteries won't fit):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_QyIJlaStY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_QyIJlaStY)

It shuts down at 1.35v!

See excerpts 2:45-3:09 and 25:05-25:35

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 29, 2016, 04:39:23 pm

Quote from: PeterL on December 29, 2016, 02:14:40 pm

https://www.batteroo.com/contest (https://www.batteroo.com/contest)

Nice, I submitted a video, but I guess my chances are low for winning :-DD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj6GyGVWwto (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj6GyGVWwto)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on December 29, 2016, 04:47:55 pm

 Not sure if there are guidelines elsewhere, but despite how long the battery actually lasts in the smoke alarm, every fire department around here has a campaign reminding you to replace it every 6 months. Since we still do that silly daylight savings time bullshit, this is when they recommend you replace the smoke alarm battery - sort of an automatic reminder. It was mentioned by someone else - the key is not that there is enough power available to run the detector circuit, but that it can actually sound the alarm, which needs much more current. Batteries I've taken out work fine in other devices for almost the typical life of a brand new one in the same device, so 6 months of just monitoring clearly doesn't put that much of a hit on the battery, but I do swap all mine twice a year.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 29, 2016, 04:48:20 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 29, 2016, 04:39:23 pm

Nice, I submitted a video, but I guess my chances are low for winning :-DD

They could always "let" you win so they could force you to take down the full video, then modify it heavily to somehow make it look like the Batteroo sleeve is doing something useful...  Anything useful...  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mzacharias on December 29, 2016, 05:09:50 pm

I almost hate to suggest this - but the (ugh) Batterizer might actually have helped extract more battery life with my (now departed) Fluke 28II.
Reason being that the 28II low-battery function cuts off at about 1.4 volts per cell and makes you replace the batteries prematurely, while they still should have lots of life left. Keeping the nominal voltage at 1.5 or so would probably help keep it going much longer, as the actual drain in use is only a couple milli-amps unless the back-light is on.

Thoughts?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: DavidD345 on December 29, 2016, 05:16:41 pm

I received my "Batteriser" order yesterday.  It is now called "Batteroo" but I got some of the first to be manufactured, still with the "Batteriser" name on them.

I tested the two AA batteries in my wireless keyboard.  They both showed 1.427v.  I placed the Batteroo sleeves on them and tested again.  Both showed 1.516v.  I am optimistic* that these products work as advertised but I'll know for sure a year from now if my keyboard battery level still shows "100%".

*Optimistic is not the word to use here.  I should have said, "I am 'interested' to see if these products work as advertised...", but after reading several replies I can see that they may just be a money-maker for the entrepreneur who put them on the market.  Regardless, I have 8 of them so I'll use them for a while and see what happens.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on December 29, 2016, 05:18:27 pm

Quote from: PeterL on December 29, 2016, 02:14:40 pm

https://www.batteroo.com/contest (https://www.batteroo.com/contest)

Guess they have given up trying to find a product where batteriser provides benefit and thought it worth $500 to see if anyone else can.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on December 29, 2016, 05:21:42 pm

Quote from: DavidD345 on December 29, 2016, 05:16:41 pm

  I am optimistic that these products work as advertised but I'll know for sure a year from now if my keyboard battery level still shows "100%".

Optimistic? You did see the video's that Frank and Dave made? :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ysjoelfir on December 29, 2016, 05:25:27 pm

Quote from: DavidD345 on December 29, 2016, 05:16:41 pm

I received my "Batteriser" order yesterday.  It is now called "Batteroo" but I got some of the first to be manufactured, still with the "Batteriser" name on them.

I tested the two AA batteries in my wireless keyboard.  They both showed 1.427v.  I placed the Batteroo sleeves on them and tested again.  Both showed 1.516v.  I am optimistic that these products work as advertised but I'll know for sure a year from now if my keyboard battery level still shows "100%".

Hi David and welcome to the EEVBlog Forum! Thank you for your post, but keep one thing in mind: Nobody ever doubted that the Batterizer will boost the voltage up so that the battery gauge shows 100%. The problem is, that
- you will never know when your device is going to fail since the battery gauge is coupled to the battery voltage, so it will always say 100% - except when it suddenly says 0% because the batterizer shut off. So keep some spare batteries around!
- the runtime could possibly not be enhanced, since the batterizer itself wastes energy in the process of boosting the voltage (switching losses), so your runtime could potentialy be even less, depending on the device you have.
- most modern products already have a "batterizer"-circuit (called boost converter) built in, so there is no point in using yet another batterizer - Batteroo itself says that, even though not that clearly: they admit that the product shouldn't be used in "active products" - which would be most of todays products using batteries.

Never the less, have fun playing around with the batteriser, I personally had much fun with it, seeing about the flaws of the product. If you like, take a look at the batteriser measurement thread -> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/) <- where we discuss actual measurement of the product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: DavidD345 on December 29, 2016, 05:25:33 pm

I just viewed the videos a few minutes after posting.  Interesting, and maybe not so optimistic.  :-[

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: roog on December 29, 2016, 05:25:58 pm

Quote

And let's not forget what happens to your video if you win:

Furthermore, winners will be required to sign and return a “Transfer of Copyright” form as requested by Sponsor. Winners hereby acknowledges and understands that under such Transfer of Copyright form, he/she will be assigning exclusively, irrevocably, and in perpetuity, and on a royalty-free basis to Sponsor (or to Sponsor’s affiliates) all copyright ownership and all other proprietary rights in and to his/her Video, such that Sponsor (and its affiliates) will have the unrestricted right to edit the Video in any manner and to use (or not use) the Video for any and all purposes whatsoever (including, without limitation, the creation of derivative works, and/or any and all other forms of commercial or non-commercial exploitation), regardless of whether or not related to the Contest.

Actually, it's worse than that.  At the very beginning of the Terms and Conditions, it states that this is applicable to each entrant.  Thus, Batteroo will be able to use this as a ploy to censor unfavorable videos.  Do not submit your videos to Batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on December 29, 2016, 05:30:43 pm

Quote from: DavidD345 on December 29, 2016, 05:16:41 pm

I tested the two AA batteries in my wireless keyboard.  They both showed 1.427v.  I placed the Batteroo sleeves on them and tested again.  Both showed 1.516v.  I am optimistic that these products work as advertised but I'll know for sure a year from now if my keyboard battery level still shows "100%".

Someone with a multimeter thinks batterisers are going to work - smells fishy :)

Regardless even if batterisers doubled your keyboard battery life to two years the $5 you spent on them would buy 12 decent AA batteries and it will take you 12 years to break even. After 2029 you will be raking in the money at well over 1 cent per week, bet you can't wait.

Later edit:
Sorry if that came across as unfriendly it wasn't meant to. The only hate around here is towards batteriseroo for selling the snake oil on indiegogo.  The point is for something with batteries that last a year or two the battery cost and so scope for savings is pretty trivial. It is even hard to justify low self discharge NiMH batteries for such application and they are much much more sensible that batterisers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 29, 2016, 05:34:01 pm

Quote from: roog on December 29, 2016, 05:25:58 pm

Quote

And let's not forget what happens to your video if you win:

Furthermore, winners will be required to sign and return a “Transfer of Copyright” form as requested by Sponsor. Winners hereby acknowledges and understands that under such Transfer of Copyright form, he/she will be assigning exclusively, irrevocably, and in perpetuity, and on a royalty-free basis to Sponsor (or to Sponsor’s affiliates) all copyright ownership and all other proprietary rights in and to his/her Video, such that Sponsor (and its affiliates) will have the unrestricted right to edit the Video in any manner and to use (or not use) the Video for any and all purposes whatsoever (including, without limitation, the creation of derivative works, and/or any and all other forms of commercial or non-commercial exploitation), regardless of whether or not related to the Contest.

Actually, it's worse than that.  At the very beginning of the Terms and Conditions, it states that this is applicable to each entrant.  Thus, Batteroo will be able to use this as a ploy to censor unfavorable videos.  Do not submit your videos to Batteroo.

It says only winners have to sign and return a “Transfer of Copyright” form, and so far I didn't sign and returned anything, and might be a good idea not to do it, if I win. And for Germany you can't even transfer the copyright, only grant exclusive exploitation right, the creator holds always all copyrights, so this would be an interesting legal case I guess.

PS: I released my video under the Creative Commons license, clone it in Youtube while you can (just a mouse click for such videos) :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on December 29, 2016, 05:42:54 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on December 29, 2016, 05:18:27 pm

Quote from: PeterL on December 29, 2016, 02:14:40 pm

https://www.batteroo.com/contest (https://www.batteroo.com/contest)

Guess they have given up trying to find a product where batteriser provides benefit and thought it worth $500 to see if anyone else can.

Personally I don't think it's that strange that they try something to get people post video's. It should help to get the buzz going. It's not that strange from a marketing point of view, also the fact the winner has to hand over his rights to the footage is not that weird.

I'm actually more surprised that Bob did not advertise this contest better.

Oh and how well the video demonstrates the benefits of the batteroo judges only for 30%, so you can still score 7 out of 10 Frank!  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 29, 2016, 05:45:28 pm

Quote from: DavidD345 on December 29, 2016, 05:16:41 pm

I tested the two AA batteries in my wireless keyboard.  They both showed 1.427v.  I placed the Batteroo sleeves on them and tested again.  Both showed 1.516v.  I am optimistic that these products work as advertised but I'll know for sure a year from now if my keyboard battery level still shows "100%".

I can garantee that there's no more chemical energy in the battery than before.

By boosting the voltage it just uses more current, ie. they'll run out faster.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: shabaz on December 29, 2016, 05:45:52 pm

They've copied other terms and conditions from the Internet, and modified them. It might not be enforceable in some countries, but the damage is done if Batteroo decide to go ahead and manipulate videos, even negative videos, for their own advantage. These parts are quite alarming (I've bolded some of it and removed some bits and replaced with '...' ), they are keeping open the option to use and disclose personal information about entrants too:

By submitting an Entry, each entrant .... By submitting a Video, such entrant consents, by virtue of submitting his/her Entry to the Contest, to Sponsor’s use of the entrant’s name, likeness, videograph or image, whether in writing, audio, and/or video, for any purpose, in any media, without compensation or additional consideration to entrant. ....
...

By participating in this Contest, entrants are authorizing the transfer of personal data to the United States for purposes of administering the Contest, conducting publicity about the Contest and such additional purposes consistent with our goals or the Contest goals. By entering the Contest, entrants consent to our collection, use and disclosure of their personal information for these purposes..

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 29, 2016, 05:46:41 pm

Quote from: PeterL on December 29, 2016, 05:42:54 pm

Personally I don't think it's that strange that they try something to get people post video's. It should help to get the buzz going. It's not that strange from a marketing point of view, also the fact the winner has to hand over his rights to the footage is not that weird.

I'm actually more surprised that Bob did not advertise this contest better.

You mean before people had their Batteroos?  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on December 29, 2016, 05:51:26 pm

Quote from: DavidD345 on December 29, 2016, 05:16:41 pm

I tested the two AA batteries in my wireless keyboard.  They both showed 1.427v.  I placed the Batteroo sleeves on them and tested again.  Both showed 1.516v.  I am optimistic that these products work as advertised but I'll know for sure a year from now if my keyboard battery level still shows "100%".

Apparently, such misunderstanding of energy vs voltage is a wide spread thing.

I explain the difference to my son using the  example of a small 1.5V button battery vs a 1.5V AA battery. Both are 1.5V, but can drive the train or whatever for very different amount of time, since they contain very different amount of energy.

In a simplified explanation, what batterizer does is to make a "dead" battery acting like a very small button battery; it shows 1.5V, but cannot last very long; once the battery is really dead, batterizer will no longer work.

Then, as we have already seen in various tests, in reality and in general, the batterizer did worse than making a "dead" battery acting like a very small 1.5V battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on December 29, 2016, 06:14:31 pm

Complementing onlooker's good post above:

Not only the batterizer did perform WORSE than a regular battery, it did fail to meet the first of its claims: to extract every last drop of juice from a battery (aka "chemical energy"), and Dave proved this failure on the live feed last night.

People - and here I include the so-called Batteroo engineers (engineers my ass!) - are unable to tell the difference between voltage and stored energy. Onlooker's example, a cell battery X an AA battery is a great example, does describe that very well, and one has obviously a lot more energy than the other, even although the voltage is the same.

A drop in stored energy doesn't necessarily mean a drop in voltage, and alkaline batteries are such an example: they present a flat 1.5V line until their stored chemical energy is way below a certain threshold. Bringing that voltage back to 1.5V is easy, but that doesn't increase the stored energy, because it isn't changing the chemicals of the battery in any way.

Again, increasing a battery's voltage doesn't increase the energy it holds: that cannot be changed on non-rechargeable batteries, and buyers of batterpoop should be aware of that. Voltage and energy are different things.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: DavidD345 on December 29, 2016, 06:48:53 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on December 29, 2016, 06:14:31 pm

Complementing onlooker's good post above:

Not only the batterizer did perform WORSE than a regular battery, it did fail to meet the first of its claims: to extract every last drop of juice from a battery (aka "chemical energy"), and Dave proved this failure on the live feed last night.

People - and here I include the so-called Batteroo engineers (engineers my ass!) - are unable to tell the difference between voltage and stored energy. Onlooker's example, a cell battery X an AA battery is a great example, does describe that very well, and one has obviously a lot more energy than the other, even although the voltage is the same.

A drop in stored energy doesn't necessarily mean a drop in voltage, and alkaline batteries are such an example: they present a flat 1.5V line until their stored chemical energy is way below a certain threshold. Bringing that voltage back to 1.5V is easy, but that doesn't increase the stored energy, because it isn't changing the chemicals of the battery in any way.

Again, increasing a battery's voltage doesn't increase the energy it holds: that cannot be changed on non-rechargeable batteries, and buyers of batterpoop should be aware of that. Voltage and energy are different things.

Do you think the creators of the Batteroo sleeve are aware of what you just posted and are in this simply to make a buck?  If that's the case, well, I guess I've been duped.  |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: g.lewarne on December 29, 2016, 07:02:42 pm

Quote from: DavidD345 on December 29, 2016, 06:48:53 pm

Quote from: AlxDroidDev on December 29, 2016, 06:14:31 pm

Complementing onlooker's good post above:

Not only the batterizer did perform WORSE than a regular battery, it did fail to meet the first of its claims: to extract every last drop of juice from a battery (aka "chemical energy"), and Dave proved this failure on the live feed last night.

People - and here I include the so-called Batteroo engineers (engineers my ass!) - are unable to tell the difference between voltage and stored energy. Onlooker's example, a cell battery X an AA battery is a great example, does describe that very well, and one has obviously a lot more energy than the other, even although the voltage is the same.

A drop in stored energy doesn't necessarily mean a drop in voltage, and alkaline batteries are such an example: they present a flat 1.5V line until their stored chemical energy is way below a certain threshold. Bringing that voltage back to 1.5V is easy, but that doesn't increase the stored energy, because it isn't changing the chemicals of the battery in any way.

Again, increasing a battery's voltage doesn't increase the energy it holds: that cannot be changed on non-rechargeable batteries, and buyers of batterpoop should be aware of that. Voltage and energy are different things.

Do you think the creators of the Batteroo sleeve are aware of what you just posted and are in this simply to make a buck?  If that's the case, well, I guess I've been duped.  |O

Fully aware of the difference.  Their complete and utter lack of demonstrable benefit, non-shipment of media units, lack of technical papers and ever-changing misleading marketing of the product, censorship of social media and indiegogo posts is unforgiveable

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: @rt on December 29, 2016, 07:06:38 pm

I got a screenshot, so no take backsies :D

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/ArtArt/Bateroo_zpsgur2wjt2.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on December 29, 2016, 07:07:15 pm

Quote from: DavidD345 on December 29, 2016, 06:48:53 pm

Do you think the creators of the Batteroo sleeve are aware of what you just posted and are in this simply to make a buck?  If that's the case, well, I guess I've been duped.  |O

If you feel that way sell them here.  I am sure you can.  As far as I know you are the first in the US to get them.  Heck if it were me I would put them up for $100.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: steverino on December 29, 2016, 07:27:02 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 29, 2016, 08:57:56 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 29, 2016, 05:53:38 am

They claim to have "good results" of testing from various common products including a toy train. I have asked them to release the results publicly, let's see if they do that.
I'd love to see the results of the toy train, because the results from both mine and Frank's testing on different toy trains has been nothing short of a horrible result.

Wayne didn't know the exact model of the train when I asked him on Facebook, but they might have used a train with AA batteries, and the track was different. Apparently they measured and recorded lap count and lap times with an expensive looking photoelectric barrier, but I think the fact that they didn't release the full data or a diagram of it so far means that it wouldn't look too good for them. And they used two different trains in their test side by side. I don't want to accuse them that they added a resistor or something in the train without the sleeve, but the trains could be just different. Not a good test setup.

Maybe next they'll say, our tests were done with old pre-production "Batteriser" sleeves instead of the good new "Batteroo" ones.

Pretty sure their train is a Fisher-Price Trackmaster Thomas trainset (same track).  It runs on two AAA batteries according to amazon listing:
https://www.amazon.com/Fisher-Price-Thomas-TrackMaster-Station-Starter/dp/B0160SNY7Q/ref=sr_1_6?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1483039457&sr=1-6&keywords=thomas+the+train+set (https://www.amazon.com/Fisher-Price-Thomas-TrackMaster-Station-Starter/dp/B0160SNY7Q/ref=sr_1_6?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1483039457&sr=1-6&keywords=thomas+the+train+set)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 29, 2016, 07:32:17 pm

Quote from: mzacharias on December 29, 2016, 05:09:50 pm

I almost hate to suggest this - but the (ugh) Batterizer might actually have helped extract more battery life with my (now departed) Fluke 28II.
Reason being that the 28II low-battery function cuts off at about 1.4 volts per cell and makes you replace the batteries prematurely, while they still should have lots of life left. Keeping the nominal voltage at 1.5 or so would probably help keep it going much longer, as the actual drain in use is only a couple milli-amps unless the back-light is on.

Thoughts?

Unlikely, because in an extremely low draw device, a higher cutout voltage is not too bad, because the cells recover and the current draw doesn't make the voltage sag too much.So the battery remains at basically open circuit voltage, which in Alkaline chemistry is still up at around 1.3-1.4V even when the battery is very depleted. But 1.4 volts is very high for a low battery alert even so.
In MJLorton's test of the Fluke 28II, he found that the battery low signal came on at 0.92V per cell, which is very good. And it's rated for 800hrs typical, which is pretty respectable. https://youtu.be/Asy8xovDbww?t=37m3s

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on December 29, 2016, 08:30:28 pm

Posted Dave's timelapse video on their facebook Page, was up for some hours before they deleted my comment  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on December 29, 2016, 09:48:11 pm

I'm sorry, but it is clear that the Batteroo is actually working. There is a famous race car test, the "Le Mans 24 hour endurance" which sorts the men from the boys so to speak, at least for car engineers and very tired drivers.

I scaled it down to 24 minutes and the endurance test shows that Batteroo choo choo's absolutely annihilate the virgin batteries by 9 laps.

OK, forcing a pair of toddlers to sit down and watch a Thomas the Tank Engine for 24 minutes is probably child abuse, but needs be.

After all, Wayne/Bob thinks there is some serious value in this.  :-DD

(http://i.imgur.com/T2WmCgS.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 29, 2016, 10:06:32 pm

Quote from: DavidD345 on December 29, 2016, 06:48:53 pm

Do you think the creators of the Batteroo sleeve are aware of what you just posted and are in this simply to make a buck?

Yes.

They know it doesn't work since the very beginning.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: woox2k on December 29, 2016, 11:01:45 pm

I'll just jump in and say something i wanted to say a long time and since Dave didn't create forum threads for the Batteriser tests, i'll post my opinion on those here as well.

First of all, i think that Batteriser does not deserve all the hate it gets from here. Marketing team made up a lot of BS and now everyone is only focusing on that. Like Dave has always said, Batteriser is a boost converter and seeing the tests it works very well. There still are some applications where one would need a boost converter like that. Good example is that train test Dave did, if one wanted the train to go fast without worrying about the laps it could do then Batteriser is a good solution. Devices that depend heavily on battery voltage can run better/faster with this product (you just lose battery capacity)

This is also a reason why i got a bit annoyed when Dave uploaded those train tests. That train has no electronics that depend on constant voltage and it just drains the battery until the motor cannot rotate the wheels anymore, it eventually drains the voltage to 0 since nothing really cuts off when the train stops. Only thing you proved with that test is the fact that DC-DC converters have losses and running a small DC motor at higher voltage will make it run faster. Since this device was supposed to be used in devices that cut off batteries at high voltage, it could not possibly last any longer in this test and everyone knows that. What about doing some "real" tests with those things? Hooking it up to a power supply and figuring out it's cutoff voltage, power limits or losses.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: sleemanj on December 29, 2016, 11:14:42 pm

Quote from: woox2k on December 29, 2016, 11:01:45 pm

forum threads for the Batteriser tests

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/)

Quote from: woox2k on December 29, 2016, 11:01:45 pm

Since this device was supposed to be used in devices that cut off batteries at high voltage

Name one single readily obtainable common usage mass market product for which you believe that the Batteroo/iser would be advantageous.

Batteroo/iser specified toys as a use case, therefore this type of test is exactly correct.  The train is about as simple a device as you can get, it's a motor, and a grain-of-wheat light bulb, not even an LED.

Electrical charcterisation is coming, but Joe Public doesn't care nor is interested in that, they simply want (need) to know "does Batteroo/iser benefit me".

The answer is... no - unless you first discharge the cell without, then add the Batteroo/iser to eek out a couple of percent extra. 

If, as we all know and should know, you put a fresh battery in a Batteroo/iser, you are throwing away power.

In the case of toys, which again, was a use case specified by the company, kids don't care that their train runs a few percent faster, if it stops 50% earlier.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 29, 2016, 11:39:03 pm

Quote from: woox2k on December 29, 2016, 11:01:45 pm

I'll just jump in and say something i wanted to say a long time and since Dave didn't create forum threads for the Batteriser tests, i'll post my opinion on those here as well.

First of all, i think that Batteriser does not deserve all the hate it gets from here. Marketing team made up a lot of BS and now everyone is only focusing on that. Like Dave has always said, Batteriser is a boost converter and seeing the tests it works very well. There still are some applications where one would need a boost converter like that. Good example is that train test Dave did, if one wanted the train to go fast without worrying about the laps it could do then Batteriser is a good solution. Devices that depend heavily on battery voltage can run better/faster with this product (you just lose battery capacity)

This is also a reason why i got a bit annoyed when Dave uploaded those train tests. That train has no electronics that depend on constant voltage and it just drains the battery until the motor cannot rotate the wheels anymore, it eventually drains the voltage to 0 since nothing really cuts off when the train stops. Only thing you proved with that test is the fact that DC-DC converters have losses and running a small DC motor at higher voltage will make it run faster. Since this device was supposed to be used in devices that cut off batteries at high voltage, it could not possibly last any longer in this test and everyone knows that. What about doing some "real" tests with those things? Hooking it up to a power supply and figuring out it's cutoff voltage, power limits or losses.

The performance claims for Batteriser didn't come from the marketing team, they first appear in the patent.

Can you elaborate on the devices that you think it is suitable for because everyone else is struggling to identify an application?  If you eliminate all electronic devices that already have built-in boost converters and devices in which the batteries last for years e.g. remote controls, quartz clocks etc. and all passive load devices e.g. the train set, what are you left with? Does Batteroo provide any guidance on this?

Batteroo make it very clear that their device's primary purpose is to extract more energy from a battery, not to consume the energy faster.

If you have been following this thread you will be aware that "real" tests will be performed on the Batteroos but they will take a little longer; the train test was a quick way to demonstrate the Batteroo's performance in the type of product in which it is likely to be used. But, don't you think it is for Batteroo to provide technical data for their own product and, therefore, shouldn't your criticism be directed at them?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 30, 2016, 12:02:23 am

This is the only device I can think of that would benefit from the batteroo...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sidewinder-Air-Pump-D-Cell-Pool-Camping-Mattress-Inflator-/191799283534 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sidewinder-Air-Pump-D-Cell-Pool-Camping-Mattress-Inflator-/191799283534)

Having your toy train run slower is not an argument for boosting the voltage!

However, these air pumps do struggle to inflate a mattress to a reasonable level as the cells get depleted.

So while it won't run as long with the batteroo, it is a device where its performance is effected by voltage, and doesn't have a built in boost converter.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on December 30, 2016, 12:11:39 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 30, 2016, 12:02:23 am

This is the only device I can think of that would benefit from the batteroo...

It may well apply in that case…
Except, most of those are sold as sex doll inflators and therefore don’t need to run as long as having to inflate a mattress.

Please note: The above statement is totally un-researched and unsubstantiated rubbish pulled out of my arse while typing… much like the statements made by the Roo Bros at the start of their campaign.

 ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 30, 2016, 12:12:28 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 30, 2016, 12:02:23 am

This is the only device I can think of that would benefit from the batteroo...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sidewinder-Air-Pump-D-Cell-Pool-Camping-Mattress-Inflator-/191799283534 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sidewinder-Air-Pump-D-Cell-Pool-Camping-Mattress-Inflator-/191799283534)

Having your toy train run slower is not an argument for boosting the voltage!

However, these air pumps do struggle to inflate a mattress to a reasonable level as the cells get depleted.

So while it won't run as long with the batteroo, it is a device where its performance is effected by voltage, and doesn't have a built in boost converter.

...Except: That pump runs at 6.67 Amps! (Spec table says it wants to run at 40W, and 6V, 4 x 1.5V D cells in series.) So when you add increased current from the boost conversion in there, you'd be up over 10A draw from the cells as the voltage sags... I can't see even the "D" cell version of Batteroo's coping with that. But then, I've never seen any tests done on the C or D versions of the Batteroo in the wild...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: woox2k on December 30, 2016, 12:16:38 am

Quote from: Blocco on December 29, 2016, 11:39:03 pm

If you have been following this thread you will be aware that "real" tests will be performed on the Batteroos but they will take a little longer; the train test was a quick way to demonstrate the Batteroo's performance in the type of product in which it is likely to be used. But, don't you think it is for Batteroo to provide technical data for their own product and, therefore, shouldn't your criticism be directed at them?

Yeah, okay i got bit carried away. Of cource it's Batteroos job to put up details on their own product but after looking at the claims and other BS they came up with i don't think they will do that. I was just expecting conclusive tests by Dave, but if they are coming then i have no problems, or i can just read the testing thread i didn't notice before.

Now only problem i still have with those train videos: As far as i know Batteriser was not advertised as a device that you put on a battery when it's new and expect 8 times the capacity. It was meant to be put on when your device failed to start up because battery voltage was too low just to get some more usage out of them. The claimed extra usage you could get out of them this way was total BS but that's how it was meant to work.

My main point was to say that this is a functioning device afterall (leaing out oll of the claims and intended purpose) and can be used on some cases. One example is that mattress inflator someone posted that relies heavily on battery voltage. Another usage are some cheaper LED (head)lamps that have no regulation and would stay bright a lot longer with Batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 30, 2016, 12:21:16 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 30, 2016, 12:02:23 am

This is the only device I can think of that would benefit from the batteroo...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sidewinder-Air-Pump-D-Cell-Pool-Camping-Mattress-Inflator-/191799283534 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sidewinder-Air-Pump-D-Cell-Pool-Camping-Mattress-Inflator-/191799283534)

Having your toy train run slower is not an argument for boosting the voltage!

However, these air pumps do struggle to inflate a mattress to a reasonable level as the cells get depleted.

So while it won't run as long with the batteroo, it is a device where its performance is effected by voltage, and doesn't have a built in boost converter.

That's great, assuming that Batteroo can deliver the necessary 6A+ current (highly unlikely) and that you would even notice perhaps a 10% increase in inflation performance. Furthermore, (if it did work) Based on what we've seen so far, it may only run for half as long which isn't much good when you're camping and miles from the nearest shop.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 30, 2016, 12:22:19 am

Quote from: woox2k on December 30, 2016, 12:16:38 am

... As far as i know Batteriser was not advertised as a device that you put on a battery when it's new and expect 8 times the capacity. It was meant to be put on when your device failed to start up because battery voltage was too low just to get some more usage out of them. The claimed extra usage you could get out of them this way was total BS but that's how it was meant to work.

From their own FAQ:
"Does the battery need to be “dead” before you use the Batteriser?

No, you can start using the Batteriser at any time, even a brand new battery, and you will get the benefits of extended battery life."
- https://www.batteroo.com/contact/#faq (https://www.batteroo.com/contact/#faq)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on December 30, 2016, 12:25:35 am

Quote from: Blocco on December 30, 2016, 12:21:16 am

That's great, assuming that Batteroo can deliver the necessary 6A+ current (highly unlikely) and that you would even notice perhaps a 10% increase in inflation performance. Furthermore, (if it did work) Based on what we've seen so far, it may only run for half as long which isn't much good when you're camping and miles from the nearest shop.

Its not so much about how much air the pump can flow, but rather the pressure it can inflate a mattress to...

Don't worry, batteroo have always said their sleeves can give all the current you need!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: woox2k on December 30, 2016, 12:27:19 am

Quote from: samgab on December 30, 2016, 12:22:19 am

From their own FAQ:
"Does the battery need to be “dead” before you use the Batteriser?

No, you can start using the Batteriser at any time, even a brand new battery, and you will get the benefits of extended battery life."
- https://www.batteroo.com/contact/#faq (https://www.batteroo.com/contact/#faq)

Oh well... Another thing they have stated correctly at one point but totally wrong in their own documentation or webpages...
I should give up, even they don't seem to understand for what or how this product should be used.  |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 30, 2016, 12:29:30 am

Quote from: woox2k on December 30, 2016, 12:16:38 am

Quote from: Blocco on December 29, 2016, 11:39:03 pm

If you have been following this thread you will be aware that "real" tests will be performed on the Batteroos but they will take a little longer; the train test was a quick way to demonstrate the Batteroo's performance in the type of product in which it is likely to be used. But, don't you think it is for Batteroo to provide technical data for their own product and, therefore, shouldn't your criticism be directed at them?

Yeah, okay i got bit carried away. Of cource it's Batteroos job to put up details on their own product but after looking at the claims and other BS they came up with i don't think they will do that. I was just expecting conclusive tests by Dave, but if they are coming then i have no problems, or i can just read the testing thread i didn't notice before.

Now only problem i still have with those train videos: As far as i know Batteriser was not advertised as a device that you put on a battery when it's new and expect 8 times the capacity. It was meant to be put on when your device failed to start up because battery voltage was too low just to get some more usage out of them. The claimed extra usage you could get out of them this way was total BS but that's how it was meant to work.

Their claims have shifted as the product has gradually been debunked, but, like I said, read the patent for the original claims :)

section 0035 is the source of the 8x claim and relies on some outrageous premises.

https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943 (https://www.google.com/patents/US20120121943)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 30, 2016, 12:45:08 am

Quote from: woox2k on December 30, 2016, 12:16:38 am

Now only problem i still have with those train videos: As far as i know Batteriser was not advertised as a device that you put on a battery when it's new and expect 8 times the capacity. It was meant to be put on when your device failed to start up because battery voltage was too low just to get some more usage out of them. The claimed extra usage you could get out of them this way was total BS but that's how it was meant to work.

Nope. They specifically state (and always have):
(http://i.imgur.com/pEqLaiX.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on December 30, 2016, 12:48:12 am

If it weren't for Dave, by now the rahparvar (sorry if I spelled that correctly!) brothers would be claiming that the batteriser could cure all sorts of cancer, AIDS, phimosis and ingrown toenails.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 30, 2016, 12:49:41 am

Quote from: sleemanj on December 29, 2016, 11:14:42 pm

In the case of toys, which again, was a use case specified by the company, kids don't care that their train runs a few percent faster, if it stops 50% earlier.

Yep, and I posted this in the testing thread, but will repost here, the result for the toy train:
About a 10% velocity difference with the Batteriser. That would be imperceptible unless you had two side-by-side.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/?action=dlattach;attach=281732;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on December 30, 2016, 01:13:56 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 30, 2016, 12:02:23 am

This is the only device I can think of that would benefit from the batteroo...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sidewinder-Air-Pump-D-Cell-Pool-Camping-Mattress-Inflator-/191799283534 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sidewinder-Air-Pump-D-Cell-Pool-Camping-Mattress-Inflator-/191799283534)

$19.99 worth of batteriser 'D' sleeves to make a $14 pump work better?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on December 30, 2016, 01:36:55 am

Dumb thought for today....

After all the batteriseroo drivel about cut off voltages you would actually find more battery life extending applications for the thing if it were a buck-boost converter with say 1.0v output.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on December 30, 2016, 01:51:51 am

With Batteriser : 3.3333 LPM (Laps per minute)
Without Batteriser : 2.8571 LPM

What's that track like, one meter or something? let's assume it is.
1 lap = 1 meter
Batteriser : 3.3333 m/min = 0.0556 m/s
No Batteriser : 2.8571 m/min = 0.04762 m/s

speed difference ratio : B/NB => 1.1675 => 16.75 % faster

total lap :
B : 350
NB : 510(?)

difference ratio : B/NB => 0.6862 => -31.37%

... okay, I don't know what I calculate these for... I was kinda bored  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on December 30, 2016, 02:06:17 am

Quote from: Hensingler on December 30, 2016, 01:13:56 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 30, 2016, 12:02:23 am

This is the only device I can think of that would benefit from the batteroo...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sidewinder-Air-Pump-D-Cell-Pool-Camping-Mattress-Inflator-/191799283534 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sidewinder-Air-Pump-D-Cell-Pool-Camping-Mattress-Inflator-/191799283534)

$19.99 worth of batteriser 'D' sleeves to make a $14 pump work better?

Not to mention; If it's for camping use, why not just get a 12V automobile powered one? For less than the cost of the Batteroos. Eg:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Car-12V-DC-Electric-Air-Pump-Inflator-3-Nozzles-Deflate-Toys-Mattress-/172387636700?hash=item28231a95dc:g:s4MAAOSwHMJYEESj (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Car-12V-DC-Electric-Air-Pump-Inflator-3-Nozzles-Deflate-Toys-Mattress-/172387636700?hash=item28231a95dc:g:s4MAAOSwHMJYEESj)

Sorry for the tangent again.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on December 30, 2016, 02:12:22 am

Quote from: Luminax on December 30, 2016, 01:51:51 am

With Batteriser : 3.3333 LPM (Laps per minute)
Without Batteriser : 2.8571 LPM

The way I see it, Luminax, we have this:

169 minutes and 508 laps without Batetriser
94 minutes and 351 laps with Batteriser

B : avg speed = 3.73 LPM
NB : avg speed = 3.00 LPM

This is what was already expected.

In short, Batteriser is pretty much like me when I was 18 years old: I could go quite fast, but I wouldn't last long!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on December 30, 2016, 02:15:30 am

Quote from: woox2k on December 30, 2016, 12:16:38 am

My main point was to say that this is a functioning device afterall (leaing out oll of the claims and intended purpose) and can be used on some cases. One example is that mattress inflator someone posted that relies heavily on battery voltage. Another usage are some cheaper LED (head)lamps that have no regulation and would stay bright a lot longer with Batteriser.

Dave showed in the toy train test how much more life a Batteroo gives you from a a supposedly dead battery in a passive load application, and it was miniscule. You're better off spending your cash on new batteries than a pack of Batteroos.

Dirt-cheap unregulated lamps are one situation where I could see it being useful, but again, a LED lamp with regulation is cheaper than a set of Batteroos! And then you get more important battery-saving features like a half-brightness mode.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 30, 2016, 02:30:33 am

Quote from: kalleboo on December 30, 2016, 02:15:30 am

Dirt-cheap unregulated lamps are one situation where I could see it being useful, but again, a LED lamp with regulation is cheaper than a set of Batteroos! And then you get more important battery-saving features like a half-brightness mode.

Be careful with lamps, Ysjoelfir reported that Batteroo actually kills some of them:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1101526/#msg1101526 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1101526/#msg1101526)

Title: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on December 30, 2016, 02:47:43 am

Quote from: Hensingler on December 30, 2016, 01:13:56 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on December 30, 2016, 12:02:23 am

This is the only device I can think of that would benefit from the batteroo...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sidewinder-Air-Pump-D-Cell-Pool-Camping-Mattress-Inflator-/191799283534 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Sidewinder-Air-Pump-D-Cell-Pool-Camping-Mattress-Inflator-/191799283534)

$19.99 worth of batteriser 'D' sleeves to make a $14 pump work better?

Spend an extra 5 dollars and get the mains powered version. ($19.95 from bunnings)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Macbeth on December 30, 2016, 02:55:13 am

Or just use a garbage bag (bin bag) like Crazy Russian Hacker (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAK9ifUE8_8)  :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 30, 2016, 03:08:10 am

Quote from: kalleboo on December 30, 2016, 02:15:30 am

Dave showed in the toy train test how much more life a Batteroo gives you from a a supposedly dead battery in a passive load application, and it was miniscule. You're better off spending your cash on new batteries than a pack of Batteroos.

Damn, maybe I should have included this in the video?
I was going to include in another one, but it's not going to get done this year.
Sorry, but I might pull this video and add that stuff, otherwise it will be weeks before people get to see it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on December 30, 2016, 03:26:33 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 30, 2016, 03:08:10 am

Damn, maybe I should have included this in the video?
I was going to include in another one, but it's not going to get done this year.
Sorry, but I might pull this video and add that stuff, otherwise it will be weeks before people get to see it.

I just wish you had included all the extra time the non-Batteroo train ran in the side-by-side timelapse summary, because as we all know nobody reads the video descriptions so I think a lot of people will get the wrong impression from it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on December 30, 2016, 03:34:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 30, 2016, 03:08:10 am

Quote from: kalleboo on December 30, 2016, 02:15:30 am

Dave showed in the toy train test how much more life a Batteroo gives you from a a supposedly dead battery in a passive load application, and it was miniscule. You're better off spending your cash on new batteries than a pack of Batteroos.

Damn, maybe I should have included this in the video?
I was going to include in another one, but it's not going to get done this year.
Sorry, but I might pull this video and add that stuff, otherwise it will be weeks before people get to see it.

I already posted some sums on that. Amazon Performance alkaline AAA are 26 cents (in a 36 pack). That is more than 9 per battieriser sleeve. If the batteriser extracted 10% more life from a 'dead' battery you would have clip and unclip it from 90 batteries just to break even. That is 90 extra battery changes with clip/unclip before you save a cent and the batteriser would likely fall to bits before that.

edit: oops 81 extra changes (because you would have to change the extra 9 you bought).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 30, 2016, 04:35:52 am

Much better video rendering now!
Includes a cameo from Rodney Dangerfield!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 30, 2016, 04:37:21 am

Quote from: kalleboo on December 30, 2016, 03:26:33 am

I just wish you had included all the extra time the non-Batteroo train ran in the side-by-side timelapse summary, because as we all know nobody reads the video descriptions so I think a lot of people will get the wrong impression from it.

I did, and it's still in there at the end of the video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 30, 2016, 05:51:50 am

Burning flesh!
We have 2017's new Galaxy Note 7
That's two reports now.

(http://i.imgur.com/MPItDlP.png)

and

(http://i.imgur.com/dhdTpnT.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Red Squirrel on December 30, 2016, 07:49:17 am

The smell of bullshit mixed with the smell of burning flesh must be rather interesting.  :-DD

Maybe this has already been talked about or tried but it would be interesting to try these with rechargeable batteries.  They might actually have some benefit there.  I find a lot of devices don't like rechargeables because of the lower voltage, especially devices that use multiple batteries as the lower voltage adds up.  Ex: something that takes 4 AA's expects 6 volts and will only get about 4.8 with typical ni-mh cells.  This is partially fault of products though, would be nice if they would design them with rechargeable batteries in mind and just make them tolerate the higher voltage of primaries too.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CJay on December 30, 2016, 09:20:06 am

Quote from: EEVblog on December 30, 2016, 05:51:50 am

Burning flesh!
We have 2017's new Galaxy Note 7
That's two reports now.

(http://i.imgur.com/MPItDlP.png)

and

(http://i.imgur.com/dhdTpnT.png)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY0JmLpQfCQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY0JmLpQfCQ)

 >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 30, 2016, 09:47:43 am

Quote from: woox2k on December 29, 2016, 11:01:45 pm

First of all, i think that Batteriser does not deserve all the hate it gets from here.

Yes they do. They deserve every last bit of it for multiple reasons, eg:

* The Batteroo Brothers know it doesn't work. They've known it for ages, long before they did the IndieGoGo campaign. They know it couldn't provide 800% extra long before they put "800%" on their web site.

* When Dave made a debunking video they started a hate campaign against Dave, including paying a bunch of Vietnamese people to go and downvote his videos.

They're not a bunch of poor deluded engineers, it's a deliberate con. Their product is "Snake Oil" and they know it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ErikTheNorwegian on December 30, 2016, 10:41:21 am

Well, the batteriser fails, not suprising.
But, isnt the batteriser ment to be put in place AFTER the battery is empty and dont work?
Not on a fresh new battery..

So the real test should be:

1.Use the battery until device don`t work.
2. Put the sleeve onto the battery and then see how long use you got.

Having it on the whole time will make a "overhead" used by the batteriser itself.

That it will fail even here, is obvius.. but for doing it right.

Erik

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 30, 2016, 10:52:02 am

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on December 30, 2016, 10:41:21 am

So the real test should be:

1.Use the battery until device don`t work.
2. Put the sleeve onto the battery and then see how long use you got.

Watch the video, Dave did that too.

He put a "dead", batterood battery in a torch and it ran for 16 hours.

PS: Batteroo's own FAQ tells you that you can put it on from the beginning...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tszaboo on December 30, 2016, 10:55:27 am

I actually might know products where the batteriser might be useful. Canon powershot cameras. When they move the lens, they shut down with low battery, and they dont like rechargeables too much. So I guess high current+ESR triggers the undervoltage circuit, it wouldnt with this.
Anyway, this is still twice the price of a re-branded Eneloop battery. Totally uneconomical.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on December 30, 2016, 10:57:37 am

Quote from: NANDBlog on December 30, 2016, 10:55:27 am

I actually might know products where the batteriser might be useful. Canon powershot cameras. When they move the lens, they shut down with low battery, and they dont like rechargeables too much. So I guess high current+ESR triggers the undervoltage circuit, it wouldnt with this.
Anyway, this is still twice the price of a re-branded Eneloop battery. Totally uneconomical.

So you'd prefer a corrupted SD card?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on December 30, 2016, 10:59:01 am

Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on December 30, 2016, 10:41:21 am

Well, the batteriser fails, not suprising.
But, isnt the batteriser ment to be put in place AFTER the battery is empty and dont work?
Not on a fresh new battery..

Already covered earlier in the thread.
See https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1102026/#msg1102026 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1102026/#msg1102026)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 30, 2016, 11:10:48 am

Quote from: NANDBlog on December 30, 2016, 10:55:27 am

I actually might know products where the batteriser might be useful. Canon powershot cameras. When they move the lens, they shut down with low battery, and they dont like rechargeables too much. So I guess high current+ESR triggers the undervoltage circuit, it wouldnt with this.

You know what else produces large current spikes? Writing data to SD cards...

Maybe it's better not to deliberately fool the camera's battery-voltage sensor.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on December 30, 2016, 12:00:15 pm

Ugh... somewhere in between watching Dave's video and twittering and general gallivanting around... somehow that synnergy guy video came up... I think I spent 2-3 minutes and already I felt my brain draining from my ears  :scared: :scared: :scared:

How can a person be so blind? but then again He Who Shall Not Be Named is in the same boat  |O |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on December 30, 2016, 12:00:34 pm

Recorded in the expectation that at least 1 of these gets deleted ...

(http://i.imgur.com/8IvCsrl.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 30, 2016, 12:41:11 pm

Quote from: NANDBlog on December 30, 2016, 10:55:27 am

I actually might know products where the batteriser might be useful. Canon powershot cameras. When they move the lens, they shut down with low battery, and they dont like rechargeables too much. So I guess high current+ESR triggers the undervoltage circuit, it wouldnt with this.

This needs to be tested, but I think it could be a problem, because Ysjoelfir measured about 500 mV voltage drop when switching on a 0.5 A load and 750 mV for 1 A:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1101667/#msg1101667 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1101667/#msg1101667)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on December 30, 2016, 01:01:55 pm

Quote from: NANDBlog on December 30, 2016, 10:55:27 am

I actually might know products where the batteriser might be useful. Canon powershot cameras. When they move the lens, they shut down with low battery, and they dont like rechargeables too much. So I guess high current+ESR triggers the undervoltage circuit, it wouldnt with this.
Anyway, this is still twice the price of a re-branded Eneloop battery. Totally uneconomical.

You can put a sleeve around the battery, but the ESR is still there. The ESR restricts the maximum power a battery can give. It is discussed in this thread, try search maximum power theorem.

From what I have seen in the test thread here on the forum, I have a feeling the camera will do worse with a batteriser.

I never had problems with (non LSD)reachargeables in my Powershot (IS2, 12x zoom) btw. It were the disposables that it didn't like.
Some battery makers also have special alkaline's that are optimized for these higher currents.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 30, 2016, 01:04:46 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 30, 2016, 12:41:11 pm

This needs to be tested, but I think it could be a problem, because Ysjoelfir measured about 500 mV voltage drop when switching on a 0.5 A load and 750 mV for 1 A:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1101667/#msg1101667 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1101667/#msg1101667)

If that's the case then it completely debunks Batteroo's own (in)famous Snail video, where their big proof that we were all wrong and didn't know what we were talking about and why you can get 800% etc, was that products draw big current spikes and that causes dropouts due to the ESR. Now here is their own product causing the dropout
 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 30, 2016, 01:06:50 pm

Quote from: PeterL on December 30, 2016, 01:01:55 pm

You can put a sleeve around the battery, but the ESR is still there. The ESR restricts the maximum power a battery can give. It is discussed in this thread, try search maximum power theorem.
From what I have seen in the test thread here on the forum, I have a feeling the camera will do worse with a batteriser.

It will, unless is has large output capacitance to handle the spike, which it doesn't. The battery SR dos not magically vanish. Which is why they didn't put the Batterisers in the camera in their (in)famous Snail video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on December 30, 2016, 01:20:26 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 30, 2016, 12:41:11 pm

Quote from: NANDBlog on December 30, 2016, 10:55:27 am

I actually might know products where the batteriser might be useful. Canon powershot cameras. When they move the lens, they shut down with low battery, and they dont like rechargeables too much. So I guess high current+ESR triggers the undervoltage circuit, it wouldnt with this.

This needs to be tested, but I think it could be a problem, because Ysjoelfir measured about 500 mV voltage drop when switching on a 0.5 A load and 750 mV for 1 A:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1101667/#msg1101667 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1101667/#msg1101667)

I'll try to dig up my powershot (which is probably not the same as the one NANDBlog is talking about), and do some current waveform measurements.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: twice11 on December 30, 2016, 02:08:27 pm

Quote from: PeterL on December 30, 2016, 01:20:26 pm

I'll try to dig up my powershot (which is probably not the same as the one NANDBlog is talking about), and do some current waveform measurements.

I own a 2006 DSLR (The Samsung GX-1L, a rebranded Pentax *istDL2), which uses 4xAA battery and works quite well on Eneloops. The manufacturer actually recommends Ni-MH, specifies primary lithium cells as also working, and explicitly warns against using Alkaline batteries. The service manual specifies current consumption at the DC jack in various operating conditions at 5.6V input voltage. Worst case: Recharging flash while image processing or saving. In that case, the expected current draw is 2.7 amps. Let's hope the AA batterizer (backed by a quality AA battery) has a higher drive capability than the AAA batterizer that was significantly dropping at 1 amp.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 30, 2016, 02:18:34 pm

Wow! The Batteroo sleeves are even worse than what I have expected. A total fail! Considering Batteroo's claims we can assume safely that this whole business is a scam.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on December 30, 2016, 02:46:52 pm

I hadn't realised, but Batteroo was actually awarded their patent in October 2016 (9,461,399 B2). I thought the applications were still pending.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 30, 2016, 03:46:52 pm

Quote from: Julius on December 29, 2016, 03:54:38 pm

Looks like Julian found a product which theoretically could benefit from Batteriser (but I am sure the batteries won't fit):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_QyIJlaStY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_QyIJlaStY)

It shuts down at 1.35v!

See excerpts 2:45-3:09 and 25:05-25:35

Yes, but a boost converter will be both cheaper, better and easy to fit in the camera housing, and also will work better as the batteries age, simply because you can get a larger capacitor on input and output to handle the current spikes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 30, 2016, 04:05:38 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 30, 2016, 05:51:50 am

(http://i.imgur.com/MPItDlP.png)

Wow...  That sounds like an RF burn!

I wouldn't normally expect an RF burn until up above at least 10 MHz, however I had never considered the consequences of squeezing an RF source between my thumb and finger before.  Even at 1.5v and 1.2MHz it sounds like it is enough!   :palm:

I've zapped myself with RF several times over the years and left burn marks but I can't recall what frequencies any of them would have been at the moment.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 30, 2016, 04:15:09 pm

Quote from: Fungus on December 30, 2016, 11:10:48 am

Quote from: NANDBlog on December 30, 2016, 10:55:27 am

I actually might know products where the batteriser might be useful. Canon powershot cameras. When they move the lens, they shut down with low battery, and they dont like rechargeables too much. So I guess high current+ESR triggers the undervoltage circuit, it wouldnt with this.

You know what else produces large current spikes? Writing data to SD cards...

Maybe it's better not to deliberately fool the camera's battery-voltage sensor.  :popcorn:

Indeed....  This was discussed several times before specifically for cameras.

Using a BatteriserBatteroo Sleeve is a surefire way to guarantee SD card data corruption!  Not just "eventually" but somewhere between "likely" and "guaranteed."  The camera needs to know how much battery juice is left to be sure it can safely encode and write an image!  Circumventing this intentional shutdown safety mechanism is just plain dumb.

Plus, most people don't have a clue how to use something like PhotoRec, so they'll be plenty pissed when they think all their photos on the card are "gone forever" and reformat their SD card, even though they are almost always fully recoverable.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BoomBrush on December 30, 2016, 04:18:05 pm

Does anybody know the short circuit current that the batteriser can output?

I looked in the batteroo testing topic and couldn't find anybody posting it. Maybe I'm just blind.

Interesting thought: What happens if you put a battery in backwards?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on December 30, 2016, 04:20:00 pm

Listen up Batteroo, I have it, your new marketing slogan and this time the claim is supported by the facts.....

"Nothing extends battery life better than Batteroo"

 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on December 30, 2016, 04:21:25 pm

Quote from: drussell on December 30, 2016, 04:05:38 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on December 30, 2016, 05:51:50 am

(http://i.imgur.com/MPItDlP.png)

Wow...  That sounds like an RF burn!

I wouldn't normally expect an RF burn until up above at least 10 MHz, however I had never considered the consequences of squeezing an RF source between my thumb and finger before.  Even at 1.5v and 1.2MHz it sounds like it is enough!   :palm:

I doubt it was an RF burn. All RF burns I experienced were at >100V. I have never heard of an RF burn caused by touching a microcontontroller running at a couple of MHz.
My guess would is, the thin metal sheet of the Batteriser shorted the battery and got extermely hot at the point wherere the metal touched the battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mc172 on December 30, 2016, 05:04:21 pm

I've had quite a few RF burns from as little as 1 Watt. 5 Watts (which is around 16 VRMS into 50 \$\Omega\$) at around 100 MHz hurts enough to make you let go before you can realise what's happening. I've had one at about 300 W (again at approx. 100 MHz) and I definitely won't be being a twat like that again. It was a bit like a firework going off in my hand and part of me was definitely slightly past medium rare. 300 W into 50 \$\Omega\$ is 122.5 VRMS, so if you mention RF burns at over 100 V in plural you're either a complete idiot or :bullshit:.

Can't comment on anything around 2-3 MHz as I don't ever do anything down there at considerable power.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on December 30, 2016, 05:11:51 pm

Quote from: bktemp on December 30, 2016, 04:21:25 pm

My guess would is, the thin metal sheet of the Batteriser shorted the battery and got extermely hot at the point wherere the metal touched the battery.

My guess is the inductor shorts to the top of the battery (only a thin layer of encapsulation to be missing or damaged) which bypasses the inductor. The chip trying to run with a few nH of inductance gets very hot (possibly killing itself) and that heat goes through the board to the sprung terminal the prongs of which produced the burn spots. 

Posted that indiegogo comment and suggested this a few pages ago https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1099788/#msg1099788 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1099788/#msg1099788)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on December 30, 2016, 05:29:39 pm

Quote from: mc172 on December 30, 2016, 05:04:21 pm

300 W into 50 \$\Omega\$ is 122.5 VRMS, so if you mention RF burns at over 100 V in plural you're either a complete idiot or :bullshit:.

Not every RF source is designed for 50ohms output load, you can easily have a RF source of several 100V limited to a couple of 100mW. Even that power is enough to cause RF burns, because the contact area is typically very small, therefore the power density high.
But you need enough voltage to penetrate the skin.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 30, 2016, 06:49:05 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 30, 2016, 04:20:00 pm

Listen up Batteroo, I have it, your new marketing slogan and this time the claim is supported by the facts.....

"Nothing extends battery life better than Batteroo"

 :-DD

Oh, my...  That is priceless...  You win the beer award of the day week year on that one, for sure!   :-DD

Don't give them any bright ideas, though...  LOL

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on December 30, 2016, 07:19:36 pm

The Batteroo Bunny; it keeps on going... flat.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on December 30, 2016, 07:36:07 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on December 30, 2016, 05:11:51 pm

Quote from: bktemp on December 30, 2016, 04:21:25 pm

My guess would is, the thin metal sheet of the Batteriser shorted the battery and got extermely hot at the point wherere the metal touched the battery.

My guess is the inductor shorts to the top of the battery (only a thin layer of encapsulation to be missing or damaged) which bypasses the inductor. ....

Could be, but I am still intrigued by the possibility of latch-up. It would happen when inserting the last of multiple batteries and it would drag the battery down to 1.2v. If the IC gets hot enough, it would eventually short.

To be a possibity, there is a simple test. Does the Batteriser without a battery look like a diode when the positive is applied to the negative contact and the negative is applied to the prongs? If you get a 0.6v drop, then latch-up is possible. If it is open or a 0.2v drop, it is probably not possible.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on December 30, 2016, 08:51:28 pm

I think the shorts are due to the metal sleaves sleeves touching each other, despite their space age coating. On the photos the thickness of the coating looks to be about zero.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tszaboo on December 30, 2016, 09:26:45 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 30, 2016, 12:41:11 pm

Quote from: NANDBlog on December 30, 2016, 10:55:27 am

I actually might know products where the batteriser might be useful. Canon powershot cameras. When they move the lens, they shut down with low battery, and they dont like rechargeables too much. So I guess high current+ESR triggers the undervoltage circuit, it wouldnt with this.

This needs to be tested, but I think it could be a problem, because Ysjoelfir measured about 500 mV voltage drop when switching on a 0.5 A load and 750 mV for 1 A:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1101667/#msg1101667 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1101667/#msg1101667)

I dont think that is a fair test. Quite obviously the batteriser doesnt have huge output capacitor (which might be a design flaw), and it is possible to create huge current spikes, where the loop is not going to respond fast enough. Most  realistic loads are not going to have those high A/s load swings.

About the burns: Isnt the metal running along the battery connected to one of the electrodes? So basically you can create a short with two batteries with batterisers in a hand (serious design flaw)?

Quote from: drussell on December 30, 2016, 04:15:09 pm

Using a BatteriserBatteroo Sleeve is a surefire way to guarantee SD card data corruption!  Not just "eventually" but somewhere between "likely" and "guaranteed."  The camera needs to know how much battery juice is left to be sure it can safely encode and write an image!  Circumventing this intentional shutdown safety mechanism is just plain dumb.

I dont know. Writing SD happens very infrequently. Also, there is no data to support your claim, nor could be, since there was no time to make tests.
Also, you must realize, I am not for batteriser, quite the opposite. But I also dont like when people come up with bad reasons supporting their claims. 2 solid reason is better than 2 solid and 1 bogus/made up. The toy train must be already very convincing.

as far as i remember the camera in question is a powershot S5

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 30, 2016, 09:28:00 pm

Quote from: StillTrying on December 30, 2016, 08:51:28 pm

I think the shorts are due to the metal sleaves touching, despite their space age coating. On the photos the thickness of the coating looks to be about zero.

Indeed...  I suspect that the report with the LED candle was one where the battery compartment has the cells inserted with no dividers in between, so all it takes is two of the sleeves to touch in any way through any small gouge, gash or nick for them two short one or more cells...

Yet another FAIL for Batteroo...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 30, 2016, 09:35:52 pm

Quote from: NANDBlog on December 30, 2016, 09:26:45 pm

I dont know. Writing SD happens very infrequently. Also, there is no data to support your claim, nor could be, since there was no time to make tests.

Well, knowing how cameras operate and the current demands of the various stages of taking photos, one can make educated guesses!  The SD card writes may be infrequent, however, on most cameras, the card is being accessed in write-mode while the CPU is encoding the photo.  This is by far the highest current consumption phase of any activity on most cameras, therefore, the most likely time for the Batteroo Sleeve to cut out unexpectedly.  Do that very many times and the odds of corrupting the SD card due to an interrupted write are bound catch up to you...

If you're going to try to disprove my theory, I highly suggest you do it with a card that contains only bogus files, not un-backed-up precious family photos.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on December 30, 2016, 10:50:26 pm

Quote from: NANDBlog on December 30, 2016, 09:26:45 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 30, 2016, 12:41:11 pm

Quote from: NANDBlog on December 30, 2016, 10:55:27 am

I actually might know products where the batteriser might be useful. Canon powershot cameras. When they move the lens, they shut down with low battery, and they dont like rechargeables too much. So I guess high current+ESR triggers the undervoltage circuit, it wouldnt with this.

This needs to be tested, but I think it could be a problem, because Ysjoelfir measured about 500 mV voltage drop when switching on a 0.5 A load and 750 mV for 1 A:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1101667/#msg1101667 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1101667/#msg1101667)

I dont think that is a fair test. Quite obviously the batteriser doesnt have huge output capacitor (which might be a design flaw), and it is possible to create huge current spikes, where the loop is not going to respond fast enough. Most  realistic loads are not going to have those high A/s load swings.

In the long explanation video, the one with the snail, that Batteroo posted long time ago, Franky explained that the batteriser worked so well because it could keep the voltage up during current spikes. It was supposedly the reason the garmin GPS worked so much longer with a batteriser. So I think a case like this deserves to be tested.

And just to give a little head start I have posted some measurements here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1102567/#msg1102567 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1102567/#msg1102567)



 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on December 30, 2016, 10:58:16 pm

Writing can be a frequent operation, especially when you're taking photos in "burst mode" on a typical DSLR. My old Canon 40D can take about 6 photos per second in high speed mode.

Even just taking a single photo still requires a lot of current. For a DSLR: First the focus servo has to run, then the aperture motor, then the mirror is pulled out of the way, then the photo is taken and the CPU has to process the data simultaneously while it's being written to the SD card. During SD write you might also be charging the flash capacitor as well.

All this amounts to a burst of close to 1A for up to several hundred milliseconds. It can be pretty intense.

Even a traditional point and shoot can be power hungry! I've got a 2008 Canon P&S that pulls roughly 600mA for 400ms while operating the zoom and focus motors! Taking a photo pulls 800mA for 100ms, which goes down to 200mA for another 600ms (plus an additional 300mA for 1000ms if the flash is used).

Cameras have *very* bursty current profiles.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on December 30, 2016, 11:32:53 pm

Quote from: drussell on December 30, 2016, 06:49:05 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 30, 2016, 04:20:00 pm

Listen up Batteroo, I have it, your new marketing slogan and this time the claim is supported by the facts.....

"Nothing extends battery life better than Batteroo"

 :-DD

Oh, my...  That is priceless...  You win the beer award of the day week year on that one, for sure!   :-DD

Don't give them any bright ideas, though...  LOL

I admit I had to read that line a couple of times, before it struck me - but, yes, that is a true gem.

The only problem is that the common usage of the term infers the direct opposite.


We might have to put an asterisk after the word "Nothing".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 31, 2016, 06:02:24 am

Quote from: Brumby on December 30, 2016, 11:32:53 pm

Quote from: Blocco on December 30, 2016, 04:20:00 pm

"Nothing extends battery life better than Batteroo"

 :-DD

The only problem is that the common usage of the term infers the direct opposite.

Indeed, which is why it is...

Quote

but, yes, that is a true gem.

... marketing wankery to the absolute finest...  :)

NOTHING beats Batteroo...  Every time!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 31, 2016, 06:30:11 am

Quote from: PeterL on December 30, 2016, 10:50:26 pm

In the long explanation video, the one with the snail, that Batteroo posted long time ago, Franky explained that the batteriser worked so well because it could keep the voltage up during current spikes.

But now we've seen the ripple on a Batteriser output and we're not so sure.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: sleemanj on December 31, 2016, 06:45:38 am

It might be interesting if a sacrificial batteroo made it's way to ElectronUpdate or somebody who can decap and do die photos
https://m.youtube.com/user/electronupdate
maybe might reveal if it is custom silicon or off the shelf.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on December 31, 2016, 06:51:59 am

Quote from: sleemanj on December 31, 2016, 06:45:38 am

It might be interesting if a sacrificial batteroo made it's way to ElectronUpdate or somebody who can decap and do die photos
https://m.youtube.com/user/electronupdate
maybe might reveal if it is custom silicon or off the shelf.

I'm pretty sure this is already in the works with some on the way to Zeptobars...  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jippie on December 31, 2016, 08:00:10 am

Quote from: drussell on December 31, 2016, 06:51:59 am

Quote from: sleemanj on December 31, 2016, 06:45:38 am

It might be interesting if a sacrificial batteroo made it's way to ElectronUpdate or somebody who can decap and do die photos
https://m.youtube.com/user/electronupdate
maybe might reveal if it is custom silicon or off the shelf.

I'm pretty sure this is already in the works with some on the way to Zeptobars...  :)

I like the way how ElectronUpdate discusses the structures on the chips, something I personally always missed on the (otherwise amazing) Zeptobars website.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on December 31, 2016, 08:10:25 am

The best die structure analyses I've seen are by Ken Shirriff at http://www.righto.com/ (http://www.righto.com/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on December 31, 2016, 12:03:44 pm

An interesting collection of things that have been noted elsewhere.

http://www.changedetection.com/log/batteriser/index_log2.html (http://www.changedetection.com/log/batteriser/index_log2.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Inflex on December 31, 2016, 12:29:23 pm

Their next step after this will be to create special sub-AA / sub-AAA cells that are 90% the length and 95% diameter of standard sizes, and a "super Batteriser" which has better boost circuitry  utilising the extra room ( higher frequency switching, dynamic modes, bigger output decoupling ).  "Lock and load for non-stop* 100% output, higher performance, superior life**" ( *: except for when you change the cell,  **: superior relative to our first batteriser ).

I'd almost consider it marketable, since we've managed to sell water in bottles and coffee in pods.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: spider on December 31, 2016, 01:47:16 pm

Just came up in my YouTube subscription feed.
More Batteroo testing:

https://youtu.be/M8-7NWbZgBE

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on December 31, 2016, 01:55:29 pm

The videos are already discussed in the other thread, wether the radio clock sync problem might be caused by EMI or voltage ripple.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on December 31, 2016, 02:14:35 pm

Don't use Batterizer with Passive load devices. it will drain 2x faster.
Don't use Batterizer when expecting a working Battery gauge. it will render your gauge uselessly stuck at 90%.
Don't use Batterizer when it risks shorting to metal housing and overheating. it will burn you.
Don't use Batterizer in clocks and other low drain devices. it will drain more than the device.
Don't use Batterizer in very high current drain devices. it will add to ESR and not be able to maintain voltage
Don't use Batterizer with active load devices. it will just eat the battery faster.
Don't use Batterizer with devices not designed to fit it. It will stuck and break.
Don't use Batterizer with rechargeable cells.
Don't use Batterizer in life critical applications. It will die without warning.
Don't use Batterizer in products with springs on the "+" terminal. It will be stuck and break.

I think we have a new slogan here :)


Don't use Batterizer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2016, 04:07:42 pm

New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.
Then calculate payback time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on December 31, 2016, 04:44:20 pm

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2016, 04:07:42 pm

New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.
Then calculate payback time.

OK... Let's design a product that benefits from the usage of the batteriser...  :D :D :D

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on December 31, 2016, 04:55:18 pm

Quote from: firewalker on December 31, 2016, 04:44:20 pm

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2016, 04:07:42 pm

New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.
Then calculate payback time.

OK... Let's design a product that benefits from the usage of the batteriser...  :D :D :D

Alexander.

Batteriser will be obsolete in any new product as any new product will implement a working, suitable sized dc-dc-regulator in order to use the battery capacity to the maximum. And the new product will also have a working battery gauge as the product can measure the actual battery terminal voltage during operation. Batteriser is just a gimmick.

But if one really wants to go into bad engineering, just design a product which will have a moderate power consumption and high cut-off voltage level like 1.4V per battery cell. In that case the Batteriser may provide some benefit.

Also, some cheapest adult oriented vibrating toys might benefit from the Butteriser Batteriser, as already reported by some user.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on December 31, 2016, 05:05:45 pm

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2016, 04:07:42 pm

New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.
Then calculate payback time.

At this point they might was well remove the components from the sleeves and save money.

(I mean the people who've bought Batterisers - they can remove the components and the batteries will last longer)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edavid on December 31, 2016, 06:13:05 pm

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2016, 04:07:42 pm

New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.
Then calculate payback time.

I had a Canon A570 camera that I had to scrap because the low voltage lockout drifted too high.  The replacement A590 I bought cost $20.  So, if I could have saved that camera with a Batterizer like product for less than $20, it would have been cost effective with zero payback time.

Of course the current Batterizer wouldn't work, since it's too large to fit in the camera's very tight battery compartment, doesn't have controlled low voltage passthrough, and probably has insufficient output current.

What I would like is a 2 part product consisting of an AA size Li-ion cell (does anyone make those?), and an AA size 3V regulator module.  Since this is fantasy, I'd like programmable output voltage and undervoltage trigger level from the regulator.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on December 31, 2016, 07:24:22 pm

Quote from: firewalker on December 31, 2016, 04:44:20 pm

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2016, 04:07:42 pm

New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.
Then calculate payback time.

OK... Let's design a product that benefits from the usage of the batteriser...  :D :D :D

That means a product that:

• needs a voltage that is an exact multiple of 1.5
• is completely incompatible with rechargeable batteries
• has an XXXL battery compartment, so that it will fit the Batteroo but will make regular "unsleeved" batteries loose
• has a cooling rib or fan on the battery compartment
• doesn't have any current spikes
• doesn't draw too much or too little current
• doesn't have its own DC-DC converter
• doesn't have a battery charge indicator
• is not a life support or mission-critical product
• doesn't need to run for extendend periods of time
• appeals to people who are complete laymen in anything remotely related to electricity or electronics

What else am I missing?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on December 31, 2016, 07:26:24 pm

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2016, 04:07:42 pm

New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.
Then calculate payback time.

I can only think of the 2 AAA cell white LED flashlight, which will run with 2 AAA cells for a while, until the battery voltage drops below 1V4 per cell. So, the one lamp you buy in a pack of 5 in Poundland, with included batteries, is about the only item where a Batteriser has any hope. Caveat is you only can use the cheap cells, as otherwise the cheap LED will be overdriven severely, so you only can use it with the Poundland 100 for a pound cells.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on December 31, 2016, 07:41:07 pm

Quote from: AlxDroid

What else am I missing?

It has to include a first-aid kit with plasters and burn cream.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jpc on December 31, 2016, 07:52:26 pm

Quote from: daveake on December 31, 2016, 07:41:07 pm

Quote from: AlxDroid

What else am I missing?

It has to include a first-aid kit with plasters and burn cream.

Just to be safe, add an extinguisher as well :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 01, 2017, 02:17:12 am

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2016, 04:07:42 pm

New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.
Then calculate payback time.

Battery companies sell their batteries with Batteroo sleeves included.

Payback time ... about 3 to 6 weeks.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on January 01, 2017, 02:20:27 am

Quote from: edavid on December 31, 2016, 06:13:05 pm

AA size Li-ion cell (does anyone make those?)

Yes, they are called 14500 and have the same voltages as other lions (~3V cutoff to 4.2V full).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on January 01, 2017, 02:34:01 am

Quote from: firewalker on December 31, 2016, 04:44:20 pm

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2016, 04:07:42 pm

New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.
Then calculate payback time.

OK... Let's design a product that benefits from the usage of the batteriser...  :D :D :D

Alexander.

Got it...  a Boob toy. (That happens to look like a trash can)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on January 01, 2017, 03:34:49 am

Quote from: amyk on January 01, 2017, 02:20:27 am

Quote from: edavid on December 31, 2016, 06:13:05 pm

AA size Li-ion cell (does anyone make those?)

Yes, they are called 14500 and have the same voltages as other lions (~3V cutoff to 4.2V full).

I think edavid was asking about AA sized cells which have a li-ion cell and a 1.5V constant voltage buck converter and charging circuitry built in, like these: http://www.unbatteries.com/ (http://www.unbatteries.com/)
These could do with some extensive testing too, to see if they perform at all.
(http://www.unbatteries.com/up/qita/201405/img_01.jpg)
(http://www.unbatteries.com/up/qita/201405/img_02.jpg)
(http://www.unbatteries.com/up/qita/201405/img_03.jpg)
(http://www.unbatteries.com/up/qita/201405/img_04.jpg)
(http://www.unbatteries.com/up/qita/201405/img_05.jpg)

Edit: User HKJ has already done some extensive testing of these here: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Kentli%20AA%202800mWh%20(Blue)%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Kentli%20AA%202800mWh%20(Blue)%20UK.html)

Also:
Another teardown: https://ripitapart.com/2014/12/06/teardown-of-kentli-ph5-1-5-v-li-ion-aa-battery/ (https://ripitapart.com/2014/12/06/teardown-of-kentli-ph5-1-5-v-li-ion-aa-battery/)
And some more testing: https://ripitapart.com/2015/06/17/performance-analysisreview-of-kentli-ph5-li-ion-1-5v-aa-battery/ (https://ripitapart.com/2015/06/17/performance-analysisreview-of-kentli-ph5-li-ion-1-5v-aa-battery/)

You need to use a special charger as they have an indented inner ring around the positive pin which provides access to the 4.2V cell for CC/CV charging. You could either use any of the special Kentli chargers, or you could get little metal rings and use one of the chargers used for charging cylindrical li-ion cells.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4pcs-KENTLI-1-5v-2800mWh-rechargeable-Lithium-AA-PH5-battery-with-USB-Charger-/390935168431?hash=item5b058d45af:g:dUAAAOSw9N1VgpMl (http://www.ebay.com/itm/4pcs-KENTLI-1-5v-2800mWh-rechargeable-Lithium-AA-PH5-battery-with-USB-Charger-/390935168431?hash=item5b058d45af:g:dUAAAOSw9N1VgpMl)

Kentli vs Duracell Alkaline AA Cells:
(http://i.imgur.com/sDPG6oR.png)
-Source: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/CommonAAcomparator.php (http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/CommonAAcomparator.php)

There are also these ZNTER AA versions, which have charge circuitry and a micro-USB slot built in:
http://www.banggood.com/ZNTER-1_5V-1250mAh-USB-Rechargeable-AA-Li-Po-Battery-p-1069778.html (http://www.banggood.com/ZNTER-1_5V-1250mAh-USB-Rechargeable-AA-Li-Po-Battery-p-1069778.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on January 01, 2017, 11:46:45 am

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2016, 04:07:42 pm

New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.

done.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=282255;image)
And no worries, he's a professional

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ElektroQuark on January 01, 2017, 11:50:22 am

No professional will use an untested new device is his workflow on "production". NEVER.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on January 01, 2017, 12:09:16 pm

Can't wait for his reaction when he figures out what's going on when it suddenly cuts out in the middle of a gig...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SpaceCow on January 01, 2017, 12:12:45 pm

Quote from: kalleboo on January 01, 2017, 12:09:16 pm

Can't wait for his reaction when he figures out what's going on when it suddenly cuts out in the middle of a gig...

The sad thing is he probably will never associate what is actually going on with the batterizer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on January 01, 2017, 01:00:32 pm

The thing is that he is using them on eneloop NiMH batteries. No wonder his battery gauge doesn't  drop the devices he uses are probably calibrated on 1.5V instead of 1.2V.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on January 01, 2017, 01:23:26 pm

Quote from: PeterL on January 01, 2017, 11:46:45 am

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2016, 04:07:42 pm

New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.

done.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=282255;image)
And no worries, he's a professional

Yes, he is professional. And after the Batteriser cuts off during a gig, he will also be experienced.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Domagoj T on January 01, 2017, 01:43:53 pm

He probably thinks he can go on another gig with his untouched batteries.

1,2,3... 1,2,3... testing....
Does this thing work?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on January 01, 2017, 02:35:51 pm

"This next song is in the key of B-flat..."

As a professional musician he shouldn't be expected to know that the battery gauge is rendered useless, he doesn't claim to be an engineer. But as usual, Batteroo fail to mention this to the people who they took money off  |O

He seems a happy customer, so I assume he didn't have any switching noise making its way into the final mix or killing the wireless range.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on January 01, 2017, 03:31:43 pm

Quote from: PeterL on January 01, 2017, 11:46:45 am

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2016, 04:07:42 pm

New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.

done.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=282255;image)
And no worries, he's a professional

Was that the guy who was responsible for screwing up Mariah Carey's new year's eve performance (http://time.com/4620015/mariah-carey-new-years-eve-performance/)? :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on January 01, 2017, 03:54:22 pm

Quote from: rich on January 01, 2017, 02:35:51 pm

"This next song is in the key of B-flat..."

As a professional musician he shouldn't be expected to know that the battery gauge is rendered useless, he doesn't claim to be an engineer. But as usual, Batteroo fail to mention this to the people who they took money off  |O

He seems a happy customer, so I assume he didn't have any switching noise making its way into the final mix or killing the wireless range.

I find it hard to believe that these things would be usable with analogue radio equipment. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tszaboo on January 01, 2017, 04:13:58 pm

Quote from: meeder on January 01, 2017, 01:00:32 pm

The thing is that he is using them on eneloop NiMH batteries. No wonder his battery gauge doesn't  drop the devices he uses are probably calibrated on 1.5V instead of 1.2V.

Using batteriser on NiMH is probably the best way to kill them fast. Secondary batteries dont like to be over discharged.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 01, 2017, 04:21:19 pm

Quote from: Delta on January 01, 2017, 03:54:22 pm

I find it hard to believe that these things would be usable with analogue radio equipment.

All the recent wireless stuff uses digital transmission for the RF.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 01, 2017, 04:50:39 pm

Quote from: NANDBlog on January 01, 2017, 04:13:58 pm

Using batteriser on NiMH is probably the best way to kill them fast. Secondary batteries dont like to be over discharged.

Have you got a reputable reference stating NiMH cells are damaged by complete discharge? I am having trouble finding anything. This http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/nickelmetalhydride_appman.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/nickelmetalhydride_appman.pdf) seems to indicate damage does not start until the terminal voltage is reversed.

Batteriseroo claimed the batteriseroo prevents reverse charging. They also state the bateriseroo is not suitable for use with rechargeable batteries which is something I never understood.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on January 01, 2017, 04:57:45 pm

Quote from: drussell on January 01, 2017, 04:21:19 pm

Quote from: Delta on January 01, 2017, 03:54:22 pm

I find it hard to believe that these things would be usable with analogue radio equipment.

All the recent wireless stuff uses digital transmission for the RF.

Is that so?  I thought there were latency issues due to the encoding/decoding that meant analogue methods were still used for live audio work... Ah well, i need to keep up...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tszaboo on January 01, 2017, 05:50:06 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on January 01, 2017, 04:50:39 pm

Quote from: NANDBlog on January 01, 2017, 04:13:58 pm

Using batteriser on NiMH is probably the best way to kill them fast. Secondary batteries dont like to be over discharged.

Have you got a reputable reference stating NiMH cells are damaged by complete discharge? I am having trouble finding anything. This http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/nickelmetalhydride_appman.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/nickelmetalhydride_appman.pdf) seems to indicate damage does not start until the terminal voltage is reversed.

Batteriseroo claimed the batteriseroo prevents reverse charging. They also state the bateriseroo is not suitable for use with rechargeable batteries which is something I never understood.

http://www.ni-cd.net/accusphp/forum/docjoints/ID214_methode%20Nimh.pdf
 (http://www.ni-cd.net/accusphp/forum/docjoints/ID214_methode%20Nimh.pdf)
figure 3.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on January 01, 2017, 05:53:52 pm

Quote from: Delta on January 01, 2017, 04:57:45 pm

Quote from: drussell on January 01, 2017, 04:21:19 pm

Quote from: Delta on January 01, 2017, 03:54:22 pm

I find it hard to believe that these things would be usable with analogue radio equipment.

All the recent wireless stuff uses digital transmission for the RF.

Is that so?  I thought there were latency issues due to the encoding/decoding that meant analogue methods were still used for live audio work... Ah well, i need to keep up...

It seems to be a huge debate on the topic analog vs digital.

http://shureblog.co.uk/analogue-vs-digital-wireless-microphones/

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on January 01, 2017, 05:57:15 pm

Quote from: EdoNork on January 01, 2017, 11:50:22 am

No professional will use an untested new device is his workflow on "production". NEVER.

It's OK, his first batteroo test was just a one off - a live 6 hour New Years Eve gig.  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 01, 2017, 06:26:43 pm

Quote from: Delta on January 01, 2017, 04:57:45 pm

Is that so?  I thought there were latency issues due to the encoding/decoding that meant analogue methods were still used for live audio work... Ah well, i need to keep up...

I shouldn't have said all, I should have said some of the newer stuff is digital...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 01, 2017, 06:31:50 pm

Quote from: rich on January 01, 2017, 02:35:51 pm

As a professional musician he shouldn't be expected to know that the battery gauge is rendered useless, he doesn't claim to be an engineer. But as usual, Batteroo fail to mention this to the people who they took money off  |O

Even if your are not an engineer and don't know the details, it should be logical that if the battery gauge shows 100% all the time, that it suddenly has to go to 0%, or at least faster than normal at the end.

And the FAQ says they don't recommend using it for rechargeable batteries. But unfortunately they don't mention the reason: most likely you destroy such batteries, or at least reduce the capacity drastically, because of deep discharge.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 01, 2017, 06:35:29 pm

Quote from: NANDBlog on January 01, 2017, 05:50:06 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on January 01, 2017, 04:50:39 pm

Quote from: NANDBlog on January 01, 2017, 04:13:58 pm

Using batteriser on NiMH is probably the best way to kill them fast. Secondary batteries dont like to be over discharged.

Have you got a reputable reference stating NiMH cells are damaged by complete discharge? I am having trouble finding anything. This http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/nickelmetalhydride_appman.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/nickelmetalhydride_appman.pdf) seems to indicate damage does not start until the terminal voltage is reversed.

Batteriseroo claimed the batteriseroo prevents reverse charging. They also state the bateriseroo is not suitable for use with rechargeable batteries which is something I never understood.

http://www.ni-cd.net/accusphp/forum/docjoints/ID214_methode%20Nimh.pdf
 (http://www.ni-cd.net/accusphp/forum/docjoints/ID214_methode%20Nimh.pdf)
figure 3.

That isn't damage though just claimed life reduction from deep discharging which pretty much all applications for your NiMH cells already do. The capacity difference between cut off at the generally recommended 0.9v and the 0.6v they claimed the batteriseroo would go down to is trivial.

Do you know of any equipment which stops at say 70% discharge because it increases life?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 01, 2017, 06:43:12 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 01, 2017, 06:31:50 pm

Quote from: rich on January 01, 2017, 02:35:51 pm

As a professional musician he shouldn't be expected to know that the battery gauge is rendered useless, he doesn't claim to be an engineer. But as usual, Batteroo fail to mention this to the people who they took money off  |O

Even if your are not an engineer and don't know the details, it should be logical that if the battery gauge shows 100% all the time, that it suddenly has to go to 0%, or at least faster than normal at the end.

Or... you might think they're going to last 8x as long (as promised in the advert!)

He's in for a rude awakening, that's for sure. Let's just hope he goes back and posts another comment when it happens.

Batteriser will be used in more than toys. I wonder if Bob is OK with people's equipment suddenly dying in the middle of an important concert (televised/paying public) because the battery gauge isn't working? Will he put a warning/disclaimer on the pack? :popcorn:


PS: Is nobody here going to reply to that comment on IGG? I know there's a few stealthy backers. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on January 01, 2017, 07:46:36 pm

(Checks all radio packs before going on stage.  All show full charge...)

"How y'all doing out there? Are you ready to R_______________<silence>"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 01, 2017, 08:08:33 pm

Yep, that will be pretty funny.   :-DD

Wireless microphones intentionally have their gauges show the battery being low and throw a warning long before it is actually dead...  Most will keep running for quite a long time after that because you often can't just change them in the middle of being used!  Defeating this intentional "early warning" system is just plain :palm:

When the light on the bottom of my old Sennheiser SKM 3 microphone goes out (which the manual just says you should change the battery "as soon as possible") will still run for at least a couple more hours before it would actually die.  My Audio Technica ATW-T34 has a gauge on the LCD on the side of the microphone AND one on the LCD on the receiver. 

You WANT these features active.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on January 01, 2017, 08:15:09 pm

Quote from: drussell on January 01, 2017, 08:08:33 pm

Yep, that will be pretty funny.   :-DD

Wireless microphones intentionally have their gauges show the battery being low and throw a warning long before it is actually dead...  Most will keep running for quite a long time after that because you often can't just change them in the middle of being used!  Defeating this intentional "early warning" system is just plain :palm:

When the light on the bottom of my old Sennheiser SKM 3 microphone goes out (which the manual just says you should change the battery "as soon as possible") will still run for at least a couple more hours before it would actually die.  My Audio Technica ATW-T34 has a gauge on the LCD on the side of the microphone AND one on the LCD on the receiver. 

You WANT these features active.  :)

The ironic thing is the guy already had the perfect working solution: Eneloop Pros. Yes, the battery gauge drops to 3/4 almost immediately, but it remains between half and 3/4 for ages, and it still functions as a battery gauge, apart from the caveat of never showing batt full, except for a few minutes when the batteries are first inserted. I use wireless mic's and use eneloops, and have the same thing. They work perfectly fine on eneloops. Why fix what ain't broke?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on January 01, 2017, 08:36:07 pm

Quote from: PeterL on January 01, 2017, 11:46:45 am

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2016, 04:07:42 pm

New challenge - find a single product where Batterizer offers any advantage.

done.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=282255;image)
And no worries, he's a professional

Might be worth including this post as well......

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=282351;image)

I don't think he should be so quick to publicly offer his support...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tszaboo on January 01, 2017, 11:05:54 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on January 01, 2017, 06:35:29 pm

That isn't damage though just claimed life reduction from deep discharging which pretty much all applications for your NiMH cells already do. The capacity difference between cut off at the generally recommended 0.9v and the 0.6v they claimed the batteriseroo would go down to is trivial.

Do you know of any equipment which stops at say 70% discharge because it increases life?

"Tests have shown that a small amount of
overcharging or over-discharging will not cause premature
failure of the batteries but will significantly shorten its life.
For example, some tests showed that over-charging Ni-MH
batteries by 0.2 V will result in a 40% loss of cycle life and a
0.3 V over-discharge of lithium-ion batteries can result in
66% loss of capacity"

This is right next to figure 4 that I've linked. And yes, I know equipment like that, any Toyota hybrid car. Also, a bunch of equipment will have a undervoltage cut-off, so it does not kill secondary batteries. According to waterloo, this is some kind of a design flaw...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 01, 2017, 11:54:55 pm

Quote from: NANDBlog on January 01, 2017, 11:05:54 pm

"Tests have shown that a small amount of
overcharging or over-discharging will not cause premature
failure of the batteries but will significantly shorten its life.
For example, some tests showed that over-charging Ni-MH
batteries by 0.2 V will result in a 40% loss of cycle life and a
0.3 V over-discharge of lithium-ion batteries can result in
66% loss of capacity"

This is right next to figure 4 that I've linked. And yes, I know equipment like that, any Toyota hybrid car. Also, a bunch of equipment will have a undervoltage cut-off, so it does not kill secondary batteries. According to waterloo, this is some kind of a design flaw...

What is 'over discharging'? reducing cell voltage to zero is just discharging and I can't find evidence it causes damage. Reverse charging causes damage and any equipment using a battery (cells in series) requires voltage cut off to avoid reverse charging the lower capacity cells in the battery.

Cars which pamper and under use their batteries in order to meet a mandated 10 year battery life are not the general case. The document you linked is 10 years old, specifically about electric vehicle batteries and the text contradicts the graph so I don't have that much faith in it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JonF on January 02, 2017, 02:03:43 am

On HiMH over discharging, pages 9-10 of the following document from Energizer  might be of interest (or not):
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/nickelmetalhydride_appman.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/nickelmetalhydride_appman.pdf)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on January 02, 2017, 06:54:12 am

Quote from: drussell on January 01, 2017, 08:08:33 pm

Yep, that will be pretty funny.   :-DD

Wireless microphones intentionally have their gauges show the battery being low and throw a warning long before it is actually dead...  Most will keep running for quite a long time after that because you often can't just change them in the middle of being used!  Defeating this intentional "early warning" system is just plain :palm:

When the light on the bottom of my old Sennheiser SKM 3 microphone goes out (which the manual just says you should change the battery "as soon as possible") will still run for at least a couple more hours before it would actually die.  My Audio Technica ATW-T34 has a gauge on the LCD on the side of the microphone AND one on the LCD on the receiver. 

You WANT these features active.  :)

Absolutely. As someone who are actually done proper live production work in the past, we can't afford to be changing batteries in belt packs half-way through a sequence or when speakers/performers are busy doing their own thing. I rely on the battery low indicator as being a good 2 hour "heads up" that I'll need to do something soon and can send someone off to do it when the time allows it.

If I'm recording for extended periods, I always replace the batteries as a matter of course. 

The "pro" who put Batterisers in his gear is a moron. He'll be sorely disappointed when one day his audio channels start dropping like flies and he's asked to explain why the hell there was no audio for one half of a take (or they had to rely on back up audio channels because their primaries failed).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on January 02, 2017, 07:02:48 am

If his Eneloop batteries are good enough to run the wireless microphone for at least double the running time of a show then to him they will work.  If he uses one though for an encore performance, which might be for an extra hour, then he will find the dead battery syndrome pretty fast.

As nobody has tested so far with a rechargeable cell, and over various load ranges, there is no data as to how long the boost converter will run with these rechargeable cells. My off the cuff thought is that you will see a roughly 30% loss in runtime for a single cell application, and with a multicell application you will see the same, plus one killed cell after 20 cycles, and perhaps a killed Batteriser as well if the dying cell reverse charges to 0.7V and latches up the controller.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on January 02, 2017, 08:41:55 am

The Energizer document is very clear : you should stop discharging at 75% of the midpoint voltage to expect normal life.
- higher cutoff : higher life but less useable capacity
- lower cutoff : unreasonnably low life for a marginal capacity increase.

In figure 11, the discharge happening under the cutoff point is clearly marked "overdischarge"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tszaboo on January 02, 2017, 09:18:07 am

Quote from: Hensingler on January 01, 2017, 11:54:55 pm

Quote from: NANDBlog on January 01, 2017, 11:05:54 pm

"Tests have shown that a small amount of
overcharging or over-discharging will not cause premature
failure of the batteries but will significantly shorten its life.
For example, some tests showed that over-charging Ni-MH
batteries by 0.2 V will result in a 40% loss of cycle life and a
0.3 V over-discharge of lithium-ion batteries can result in
66% loss of capacity"

This is right next to figure 4 that I've linked. And yes, I know equipment like that, any Toyota hybrid car. Also, a bunch of equipment will have a undervoltage cut-off, so it does not kill secondary batteries. According to waterloo, this is some kind of a design flaw...

What is 'over discharging'? reducing cell voltage to zero is just discharging and I can't find evidence it causes damage. Reverse charging causes damage and any equipment using a battery (cells in series) requires voltage cut off to avoid reverse charging the lower capacity cells in the battery.

Cars which pamper and under use their batteries in order to meet a mandated 10 year battery life are not the general case. The document you linked is 10 years old, specifically about electric vehicle batteries and the text contradicts the graph so I don't have that much faith in it.

Over discharge is also described there on the graph.
You know what? I dont care about you anymore. For all I know, you are a payed batteriser poster.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 02, 2017, 09:39:30 am

Quote from: Hensingler on January 01, 2017, 11:54:55 pm

What is 'over discharging'? reducing cell voltage to zero is just discharging and I can't find evidence it causes damage.

Seriously? I don't think you looked very hard: https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=over+discharging

(resists using lmgtfy with great difficulty)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 02, 2017, 09:43:47 am

Quote from: NANDBlog on January 02, 2017, 09:18:07 am

Quote from: Hensingler on January 01, 2017, 11:54:55 pm

What is 'over discharging'? reducing cell voltage to zero is just discharging and I can't find evidence it causes damage.

Over discharge is also described there on the graph.
You know what? I dont care about you anymore. For all I know, you are a payed batteriser poster.

There's a few weirdly-supportive-of-Batteriser posters around here in the last few weeks.  :-//

Fortunately the Pesky Facts don't care what Batteriser supporters might want to believe. Discharging batteries to 0V is bad, mmmmmkay? Alkalines start to leak, rechargeables lose capacity.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on January 02, 2017, 10:23:14 am

Quote from: NANDBlog on January 01, 2017, 04:13:58 pm

Using batteriser on NiMH is probably the best way to kill them fast. Secondary batteries dont like to be over discharged.

Luckily Batteroo have their customers covered here by not actually discharging batteries appreciably more than without a sleeve and leaving plenty of charge in the battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tszaboo on January 02, 2017, 10:52:55 am

Quote from: kalleboo on January 02, 2017, 10:23:14 am

Quote from: NANDBlog on January 01, 2017, 04:13:58 pm

Using batteriser on NiMH is probably the best way to kill them fast. Secondary batteries dont like to be over discharged.

Luckily Batteroo have their customers covered here by not actually discharging batteries appreciably more than without a sleeve and leaving plenty of charge in the battery.

Actually, imagine a gadget, using 4x AA battery, with 4x 0.9V cut-off voltage, which is 3.6V. Now, all battery has the batteriser on it, one is already discharged, because if has, say 1% less capacity. So you have 1 battery giving 0V, the other 3 1.5V for a total 4.5V. The gadget works, and the weak battery will be over discharged, maybe even reverse polarized, further ruining it. And then, charged again, that cell will be even weaker, dieing, and reverse polarizing even faster.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 02, 2017, 03:10:08 pm

Quote from: f4eru on January 02, 2017, 08:41:55 am

The Energizer document is very clear : you should stop discharging at 75% of the midpoint voltage to expect normal life.
- higher cutoff : higher life but less useable capacity
- lower cutoff : unreasonnably low life for a marginal capacity increase.

The document doesn't say that you made up most of it. The 75% refers to per battery (which of course should read per cell) and is specifically to prevent reverse charge of cells in a battery.

Quote from: f4eru on January 02, 2017, 08:41:55 am

In figure 11, the discharge happening under the cutoff point is clearly marked "overdischarge"

Also states "A key to avoiding harm to the battery is to terminate prior to reaching the second plateau" and as best I can read the crude graph the first never mind second plateau doesn't start till the battery terminal voltage is reversed.

Quote from: NANDBlog on January 02, 2017, 09:18:07 am

You know what? I dont care about you anymore. For all I know, you are a payed batteriser poster.

Yeah sure the guy (me) who's first post here said

"This train is a good example of where batteroos are a complete fail. The only way to win is to put sleeves on already dead batteries and in this case you get another 3.1%. Given a batteroo costs about 6 times more than quality Amazon branded batteries you would have to clip onto nearly 200 dead batteries to break even which no one sane would bother to do and the batteroos would likely fall to bits long before that anyway."

is payed by batteriser, how much do you think I got payed for that post? 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: onlooker on January 02, 2017, 03:26:52 pm

Yes, figure 11 and the explanation about it is confusing.

The phase described as "over discharge" includes the part we normally called "reversal charging" that requires an external power source, while I have always regarded "over discharging" means  the part of discharging that take the battery to 0V (without reversal).

A question here is: will (over) discharging a NiMH battery to 0V damage the battery?

My understanding used to be that it will not have a negative impact and only reversal charging will do the damage.

Now, by the description of figure 11, actually, only the 2nd stage/plateau of the reversal charging causes the real damage. In other words, a NiMH may tolerate a moderate level (1st stage) of reversal charging without being damaged or having capacity reduced.

This "moderate level" reversal charge tolerance is upto about 40% of the battery capacity. This is good to know. It means several batteries in series with upto 40% capacity difference can run down to 0V w/o bad effects to the batteries.

Then, the next question is: does this tolerance apply to all NiMH batteries in general or is it highly depending on the construction? I have many eneloops; does eneloop have a similar tolerance?

Fixed typo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JonF on January 02, 2017, 04:10:34 pm

It is confusing, hence the "(or not)"  when I posted  :)

Given that Baterro recommend that their sleeves should not be used on rechargeable batteries I don't think a fan boy would argue the point.

Given that below 75% of the midpoint voltage at the discharge rate in use the battery has virtually nothing (according to the Energizer document) left I can't see the point in designing somthing to work below that point myself, but I could easily be wrong.

Whether a single cell would be damaged if discharged below the recommended level is an interesting question all the same, my interpretation of the information from Energizer is that it would. However, there are far more knowlegable people than me here. It would be useful to see some analysis off the topic without it degenerating into an argument...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 02, 2017, 04:24:38 pm

Quote from: onlooker on January 02, 2017, 03:26:52 pm

Now a question is: will (over) discharging a NiMH battery to 0V damage the battery?

My understanding is that it will not have a negative impact and only reversal charging will do the damage.

As is mine which means that batteriseroos cutting off at 0.6v is not a problem providing they also block reverse charging.

If that isn't the reason for them not recommending use with rechargeables then what is? Lower internal resistance makes batteriseroos an even bigger personal injury risk and fire hazard?

Quote from: JonF on January 02, 2017, 04:10:34 pm

Whether a single cell would be damaged if discharged below the recommended level is an interesting question all the same, my interpretation of the information from Energizer is that it would. However, there are far more knowlegable people than me here. It would be useful to see some analysis off the topic without it degenerating into an argument...

I can't see it. Would an NiMH cell self-discharging on the shelf start damaging itself?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edavid on January 02, 2017, 05:12:51 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on January 02, 2017, 04:24:38 pm

I can't see it. Would an NiMH cell self-discharging on the shelf start damaging itself?

They seem to be saying that unloaded storage is OK, but loaded storage causes capacity loss.  (Hard to tell from that incredibly vague document.)

But then you wonder why there should be a difference, if the endpoint voltage is the same.  Does an unloaded cell never actually reach 0V?  Or is there still some small capacity loss, that's allowed for in the overall life spec?  There are really no answers given.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 02, 2017, 05:39:15 pm

Quote from: onlooker on January 02, 2017, 03:26:52 pm

Yes, figure 11 and the explanation about it is confusing.

Why is it confusing?

The way they specify their cell capacities is for X mAh at a certain discharge rate to 0.9 volts.  This is what they call "100%"capacity. They show you in Figure 10 that the faster you discharge, the less total capacity you get.  At slower discharge rates (they say up to about 1C) , the 0.9 volts cutoff is great and means the cell is essentially "fully discharged".  At higher discharge rates, like 4C, for example, terminating your discharge at 0.9 volts may be premature, though, and instead of having used up almost all of the available capacity since they drop like a rock once they really hit that end of charge "knee", there may still be significant usable capacity left due to the depressed voltage caused by the aggressive discharge rate.

In these cases, they are essentially saying to do a load test (or use published high-discharge curves) at your high discharge rate to come up with a graph like Figure 6.  Once you have your data, you calculate where that Midpoint of Discharge is, and see what the voltage is at this point which will be lower than the 1.2 volts shown in figure 6.  You multiply that voltage by 0.75 and get some number lower than 0.9 volts and you use that value as your cutoff voltage.

As to discharging to 0 volts vs. 0.9 volts in a typical application to try to get more than 100% of their rated capacity, that extra "10% or less" of the total chemical charge that is greater than their rated capacity (because they rate them for a 0.9v cutoff, as the knee is just starting rather than 0 volts) by extracting that last little tiny area under the curve...  Well, you CAN do that in a single cell application if you want, but it is pretty pointless because your available voltage is dropping like a rock...  You will never be able to go beyond the start of that "One Electrode Reversed" plateau because you only have one cell, so you shouldn't actually cause any damage to the cell as long as it is recharged fairly soon afterwards.  You're not supposed to store NiMH in a totally discharged state for extended periods, unlike best practice for NiCd. 

As soon as you put cells in series to form a battery, however, then you really want to stop discharging as soon as your output starts to drop because you need to avoid reverse-charging as this will permanently damage the cell.  The battery will hold for some time on that first plateau without actually going negative by eating up some of the extra reserve positive electrode...  Thus as long as the cells in your whole battery pack are capacity matched well enough to always stay in that first plateau when discharging, you are OK...  Which is why they recommend always using the 0.9v cutoff...  You are unlikely to actually reverse anything until one or more of your cells has significantly less capacity that the best ones. 

Obviously, the more cells you put in series, the more you need to watch this effect.  This is why things like power tools they tell you to recharge as soon as the tool begins to slow...  If you waited until you get more than a perceptible voltage drop, your weakest cells in a well-used pack may be pushed into reverse by the time you actually hit 0.9v per cell.  In a 15-cell pack (eg. an 18v cordless power tool w/ NiMH), for example, when you hit the 13.5 volt "75%" mark, you might have only discharged all the cells to 0.9v if the cells are new and all fairly equal.  In an older pack with worn cells, you are more likely to have many cells that are still at 1.1-1.2 volts while you're using your remaining capacity to smooshy-mooshy-mash angry pixies back into the weakest couple cells in reverse...  That will rapidly destroy those cells, where you may well otherwise have been able to get dozens or hundreds more usable cycles out of the pack.

Quote

The phase described as "over discharge" includes the part we normally called "reversal charging" that requires an external power source, while I have always regarded "over discharging" means  the part of discharging that take the battery to 0V (without reversal).

You do realize that your "External Power Source" can be the other cells in a series-connected array of cells, right?

Quote

A question here is: will (over) discharging a NiMH battery to 0V damage the battery?

ONE cell?  No. 
A battery, with multiple cells in series?  It certainly can, unless you do sophisticated individual cell monitoring and control like you would with a good Li-ion pack.
 

Quote

My understanding used to be that it will not have a negative impact and only reversal charging will do the damage.

Now, by the description of figure 11, actually, only the 2nd stage/plateau of the reversal charging causes the real damage. In other words, a NiMH may tolerate a moderate level (1st stage) of reversal charging without being damaged or having conpacity reduced.

Yes, they can tolerate that time with the cell holding at 0v (the first plateau) alright, though it is hard on the positive electrode, it won't actually start liberating hydrogen and venting until you hit the end of that first plateau.  You're NOT actually reverse charging it yet until the cell goes below 0v.

Quote

This "moderate level" reversal charge tolerance is upto about 40% of the battery conpacity. This is good to know. It means several batteries in series with upto 40% conpacity difference can run down to 0V w/o bad effects to the batteries.

Right, which is why they don't normally put fancy monitoring on each cell in a typical series NiMH pack but rather just stick them in series and hope for the best.  :)  They are reasonably tolerant for that first bit.

Remember, though, that the more cells you put in series, the more potential there is for damage.  This is why it is pretty much totally retarded to try to discharge a multi-cell battery beyond 0.9v per cell.  Very little capacity left and larger and larger chance of damaging cells prematurely the lower you go and the more cells in series.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on January 02, 2017, 06:16:39 pm

Another happy customer, and he hasn't even tried them yet.

Thierry Baudhuin 1 hour ago

Just got mine today also. Unfortunately I had to pay also a VAT and formality cost of 28€ for a 40$ pack (In Belgium). On top of it, I have ordered 2 packs at the same time, but they were sent separately, so I will have to pay again 28€ in a few days most probably.
I also received an mail informing that I will get a 9v batterizer because of the delay of the production, but I didn’t received anything.
If I only knew, I would not buy it. I am a bit disappointed after waiting 2 years I must admit.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-extend-battery-life-significantly#/comments (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-extend-battery-life-significantly#/comments)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on January 02, 2017, 06:38:28 pm

Finally definitive proof, direct from Batteroo.

Vivitar digital cameras 3 x AAA batteries.
Set up to take photos in forced flash mode. One pic every 10 seconds.
The claim is 172 pics without sleeve, 616 with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-ysCcVcjX4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-ysCcVcjX4)

edit to add: The flash does seem to stop working at 172 pics, but the camera looks like it is still taking pictures up to about 420.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 02, 2017, 06:49:42 pm

Quote from: rich on January 02, 2017, 06:38:28 pm

Finally definitive proof, direct from Batteroo.

Vivitar digital cameras 3 x AAA batteries.
Set up to take photos in forced flash mode. One pic every 10 seconds.
The claim is 172 pics without sleeve, 616 with.

Anyone have any idea what model of camera this is?

I expect this is the same kind of issues as the goofy GPS test but this time about the flash instead of the backlight.

This should be interesting!  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amirm on January 02, 2017, 06:58:28 pm

Quote from: drussell on January 02, 2017, 06:49:42 pm

Anyone have any idea what model of camera this is?

From the picture of the back it looks like Vivitar F126: http://shashinki.com/shop/vivitar-f126-digital-camera-blue-mp-29482.html (http://shashinki.com/shop/vivitar-f126-digital-camera-blue-mp-29482.html)

(http://shashinki.com/shop/images/VVT-F126-BLU-01.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rollatorwieltje on January 02, 2017, 07:00:55 pm

It's literally mentioned in the video... Vivitar S126

http://www.argos.co.uk/product/4187156 (http://www.argos.co.uk/product/4187156)

Wow, a 25 gbp digital camera.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on January 02, 2017, 07:07:54 pm

Quote from: drussell on January 02, 2017, 06:49:42 pm

I expect this is the same kind of issues as the goofy GPS test but this time about the flash instead of the backlight.

Before leaping to conspiracy theories I'd like proof. Subjectively though, the backlight looks significantly brighter on the left camera, but it could just be the viewing angle. Only one way to find out...  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 02, 2017, 07:33:58 pm

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on January 02, 2017, 07:00:55 pm

It's literally mentioned in the video... Vivitar S126

http://www.argos.co.uk/product/4187156 (http://www.argos.co.uk/product/4187156)

Wow, a 25 gbp digital camera.

$25 in the states and a youtube reviewer said he wouldn't pay $5 for it, so I guess he wouldn't spend $7.50 on batteriseroo sleeves to make it work better either.

Anyhow congrats to Batteriseroo on finding a product so crappy that batteriseroos improve it. Or maybe it is more bullshit like the golf GPS thing.

Later edit: Review from Argos
avoid

    the camera flattened 12 batteries . Argos customer service advised that these cameras do not work well with "normal batteries" not even rechargeable or high power ones the screen is small blurry and reminiscent of the 1980's the general build is like something you might find in a fast food meal box . it seems very light and almost fragile, screw heads are clearly visible battery cover badly fitting took it straight back to exchange for a grown up camera.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 02, 2017, 07:34:11 pm

LOL...  Oops, I obviously missed hearing that bit...

Sounds like she says "S126" not F...

I can't seem to find a manual online yet but since the website has the following incredibly detailed specifications for "Technical Details":

Megapixels     16.1
Digital Zoom  4x

I don't really expect the manual to say a heck of a lot about anything...  :) 

At first I thought it might have different modes for battery types or be intelligent enough to be warning about flash use on low battery or something, but now that I've actually seen what it is, I don't expect much of anything...  LOL...

<sarcasm> Looks like a top-notch, high quality camera! </sarcasm>   :-DD 

Anyone have access one of these for characterization?

Quote from: rich on January 02, 2017, 07:07:54 pm

Before leaping to conspiracy theories I'd like proof. Subjectively though, the backlight looks significantly brighter on the left camera, but it could just be the viewing angle. Only one way to find out...  :popcorn:

Indeed....  It is entirely possible that this is one of those dirt cheap, poorly designed products that actually fill the niche where the Batteriser actually does something.

Now perhaps someone has a specific potential target product to try to win my $10 beer fund prize from the testing thread!  :)  Perhaps it will not be as much of a long and arduous journey as I suspected after all since Batteroo has pointed us to another potential product.  (Though, the GPS didn't work out too well for them, so who knows...)

I can't wait for more info on this one!   :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 02, 2017, 07:49:32 pm

Since they seem to have comment moderation on, what do suppose the chances are of them accidentally approving my comment and it showing up in the video comments:

(http://i.imgur.com/w5eM036.png)

 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on January 02, 2017, 08:07:00 pm

http://vivitar-experience-image-manager.com/manuals/en_US/ViviCam_F126_Camera_Manual.pdf (http://vivitar-experience-image-manager.com/manuals/en_US/ViviCam_F126_Camera_Manual.pdf)
http://vivitar-experience-image-manager.com/manuals/en_US/ViviCam_F126v2_Camera_Manual.pdf (http://vivitar-experience-image-manager.com/manuals/en_US/ViviCam_F126v2_Camera_Manual.pdf)

In the vid Sheila :) says S126, still can't find that ones manual.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 02, 2017, 09:01:11 pm

Yes, I saw manuals for the F126...

Does anyone know what the difference between the S126 and the F126 is?

The S126 is supposedly 16.1 MP and the F126 manual says 14 MP...

They may be very similar but I'm guessing they are not the same.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 02, 2017, 09:11:45 pm

Such a dumb video....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9hT4cAOr9g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9hT4cAOr9g)
"Most devices use only a fraction of the energy in their battery's"
in a few weeks users here will confirm that most devices uses most to all energy in the battery

And how can you call i a "test" when all you are doing is showing how a boost converter works.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Towger on January 02, 2017, 09:35:05 pm

The camera without the Batteriser "slave"  is still taking photos, but the flash is not charging in the 10 seconds between photos.  I wonder how many photos they would both take if you left them both running.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on January 02, 2017, 10:27:48 pm

Based on users' reviews these cameras appear to have particularly poor power management.e.g...

Quote

AVOID

Purchased 2 of these at the same time as cheap and cheerful for our 2children to venture into the digital camera world on there own. First the battery compartment buckled on 1 as we closed lid with the battery's in. We got a replacement but that with the other one battery door kept popping open so we had to use cello tape to keep closed. Used cheap batteries and only took three pictures before flat so used Duracell and got 10 pictures on one 12 on the other before batteries were flat again.

It's seems like a very obscure choice of product for the test.... someone's been doing their homework. ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on January 02, 2017, 10:51:11 pm

It's probably the only camera they could find that the Batteroo actually fitted in.

I also imagine, that the fixed focus, and small flash don't draw as much current as those on a "proper" digital camera would - I have my doubts the batteroo could even supply enough current for most digital cameras.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on January 02, 2017, 10:54:06 pm

Quote from: Towger on January 02, 2017, 09:35:05 pm

The camera without the Batteriser "slave"  is still taking photos, but the flash is not charging in the 10 seconds between photos.  I wonder how many photos they would both take if you left them both running.

It's a cherry picked product with very carefully selected test parameters, not a real world test scenario. But all the same, I'd like to repeat the same test with the same product under the same test conditions using a set of Eneloop Pros. I may do so.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on January 02, 2017, 10:58:52 pm

Quote from: Towger on January 02, 2017, 09:35:05 pm

The camera without the Batteriser "slave"  is still taking photos, but the flash is not charging in the 10 seconds between photos.  I wonder how many photos they would both take if you left them both running.

Well we know the non-batteroo camera gave up entirely after about 420 (you can see it in the video)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 02, 2017, 11:01:18 pm

Quote from: Blocco on January 02, 2017, 10:27:48 pm

Based on users' reviews these cameras appear to have particularly poor power management.e.g...
...
It's seems like a very obscure choice of product for the test.... someone's been doing their homework. ::)

Indeed!  I wonder how hard they had to search to find device(s) that actually show any benefit from these sleeves...  The best they could seemingly come up with before was the GPS, which they figured out a way to game the "test" on...  Products that they can tout as suitable must be very few and far between.

Quote

Used cheap batteries and only took three pictures before flat so used Duracell and got 10 pictures on one 12 on the other before batteries were flat again.

I wonder if there are manufacturing defects that cause some specimens of these cameras to have totally defective power supplies.  10-12 pictures means something is seriously wrong, even with the cheapest of the cheap crap.

I wonder if the test in the video were repeated with the Batteroo Sleeves in the other camera, would the results still be the same?  Did they hand-pick these two cameras?

Quote

That is why this whole saga has been so thoroughly entertaining...  Nobody is quite sure whether these PHD engineer "GENIUSES" are really as clueless as they appear or if it is all an elaborate, intentional ploy to slurp money out of unsuspecting masses with their vague, evasive marketing wankery.

Why did they never publish any data if they are so SMRT and their product is so great?  This whole thing makes no sense, which is why we've all been watching!

With the product choice in the latest video, it is certainly looking more and more like it is 100% willful, sleazy misdirection and misinformation.  They may have been a tad clueless at the start but they have certainly doubled down (and tripled, quadrupled..) on their level of BS.  They did not choose this model of camera for this test at random.   :bullshit:

Somehow, I don't think my second comment is ever going to go public either:

(http://i.imgur.com/5RQIX4e.png)

:popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on January 02, 2017, 11:02:16 pm

Has Dave got three AAA Batteryiseroos?  I'd happily pay 25 quid for one of these cameras so he could repeat the test. :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on January 02, 2017, 11:03:48 pm

Quote from: rollatorwieltje on January 02, 2017, 07:00:55 pm

It's literally mentioned in the video... Vivitar S126

http://www.argos.co.uk/product/4187156 (http://www.argos.co.uk/product/4187156)

Wow, a 25 gbp digital camera.

My guess they used this camera because the sleeves fit.  I have Nikon and Canon cameras that use 2-AAs and I do not think the sleeves would fit any of them.  It probably took them 2 years to find a camera that takes the sleeves.

The only way we will know is when someone does this test and it is fortunate the camera is cheap.

Another camera test could be a Canon using CHDK that shows battery percentage.  So a gauge test could be done at the same tiime (if the sleeve fits) .  These cameras go for about 30-40 on ebay.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 02, 2017, 11:07:46 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on January 02, 2017, 09:11:45 pm

Such a dumb video....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9hT4cAOr9g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9hT4cAOr9g)
"Most devices use only a fraction of the energy in their battery's"
in a few weeks users here will confirm that most devices uses most to all energy in the battery

And how can you call i a "test" when all you are doing is showing how a boost converter works.

I posted a comment to the video, let's see how long it survives :) Additional note: the quiescent current of the Batteroo sleeve is about 14 uA. With normal use, e.g. 8 hours per day, the battery in an Apple keyboard might last a month without the Batteroo sleeve (reported by some users on Amazon). This means the quiescent current of the Batteroo sleeve alone will reduce the battery life time significantly.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on January 02, 2017, 11:09:00 pm

Quote from: Delta on January 02, 2017, 11:02:16 pm

Has Dave got three AAA Batteryiseroos?  I'd happily pay £25 quid for one of these cameras so he could repeat the test. :)

IIRC, he received three AAA types in total in the batch from a user, but one of them fell apart the first time he tried to use it (soldered tabs fell off) so he has only two AAA left. The other one could certainly still be used with a bit of metal soldered on to make contact, but I think he was going to attach wires to it for more thorough bench testing.

I suspect the carefully selected 10sec recycle time in the test was chosen because 10 seconds doesn't give the Alkaline chemistry time to recover between flash charge bursts of current draw. In real life, where you'd use the flash every now and then it would be different. What if the test was set up to do 10 photos with no flash, 1 min pause, 1 photo with flash, 1 min pause, 10 photos with flash, etc... I think the result would be the opposite. That's why I say all of  the test conditions were carefully selected to give a desired result. By someone who knows this very well, about Alkaline chemistry etc.

Edit: I remembered the phrase I was trying to think of when I was typing the above: "Deliberately misleading" was it.

Edit2: Anyone else hate the voice they used for the voice-over in that camera test ad? She sounds so smug and slimy. Yuck.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 02, 2017, 11:16:06 pm

Quote from: rich on January 02, 2017, 10:58:52 pm

Quote from: Towger on January 02, 2017, 09:35:05 pm

The camera without the Batteriser "slave"  is still taking photos, but the flash is not charging in the 10 seconds between photos.  I wonder how many photos they would both take if you left them both running.

Well we know the non-batteroo camera gave up entirely after about 420 (you can see it in the video)

Given their history with the GPS "test", it is very possible that their test parameters were carefully managed to manipulate the results to benefit their results.  For example, as suggested above, if the flash starts to take more than the 10 second interval they are using to recharge, what is the behavior?  How long does it take to write to the card?  Would the results be the same at a 15 or 20 second interval?  Was the SD card on each camera the exactly same type?  Were they both empty?

The manual for the F126 version does say:

Quote

- Some features, such as Flash, will not work if the battery power level is low.

- When the battery power is low the battery icon turns red and the
camera will automatically turn off a few seconds later.

Like the GPS, is there any kind of warning on the screen at any time?  Do you have to press an [OK] button to continue taking photos?

Of course, it is also very possible that the power supply design in this camera sucks so badly that it actually does make an improvement even when there are not any manufacturing defects in the particular specimen and it is operating as well as the design can possibly permit.

I can't wait for someone a tad more impartial than Batteroo Inc. to get their hands on one of these cameras for some testing!  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 02, 2017, 11:20:15 pm

Quote from: samgab on January 02, 2017, 11:09:00 pm

Quote from: Delta on January 02, 2017, 11:02:16 pm

Has Dave got three AAA Batteryiseroos?  I'd happily pay £25 quid for one of these cameras so he could repeat the test. :)

IIRC, he received three AAA types in total in the batch from a user, but one of them fell apart the first time he tried to use it (soldered tabs fell off) so he has only two AAA left. The other one could certainly still be used with a bit of metal soldered on to make contact, but I think he was going to attach wires to it for more thorough bench testing.

I suspect the carefully selected 10sec recycle time in the test was chosen because 10 seconds doesn't give the Alkaline chemistry time to recover between flash charge bursts of current draw. In real life, where you'd use the flash every now and then it would be different. What if the test was set up to do 10 photos with no flash, 1 min pause, 1 photo with flash, 1 min pause, 10 photos with flash, etc... I think the result would be the opposite. That's why I say all of  the test conditions were carefully selected to give a desired result. By someone who knows this very well, about Alkaline chemistry etc.

Edit: I remembered the phrase I was trying to think of when I was typing the above: "Deliberately misleading" was it.

Edit2: Anyone else hate the voice they used for the voice-over in that camera test ad? She sounds so smug and slimy. Yuck.

That's always sadly true, if you really want to make a test to give the answer you want, it's never really difficult to make it, that's why Frank and Dave test are better, they are done by done by two independent people and giving the whole test (and use the devices in a more "normal" way)

By the way Dave, you really should try a third battery on the train, first time with the battero, wait the same time as for the battery two, then use it again in the train without the sleeve, and count the number of turn/time the train will work in that case :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: timb on January 02, 2017, 11:21:30 pm

After seeing some reviews of the camera they used for the test, it suddenly all makes sense! Clearly this is Bob's personal camera, which explains why he couldn't take a photo of any of the prototypes or the production in China! XD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edavid on January 02, 2017, 11:21:44 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 02, 2017, 11:07:46 pm

Additional note: the quiescent current of the Batteroo sleeve is about 14 uA. With normal use, e.g. 8 hours per day, the battery in an Apple keyboard might last a month without the Batteroo sleeve (reported by some users on Amazon). This means the quiescent current of the Batteroo sleeve alone will reduce the battery life time significantly.

That does not compute.  A 2000mAh AA cell can supply 14uA for 16 years.  I think the sleep current of the keyboard is at least 100uA, based on the 2 year-ish battery life I get on a seldom used keyboard.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on January 02, 2017, 11:26:07 pm

Quote from: Delta on January 02, 2017, 11:02:16 pm

Has Dave got three AAA Batteryiseroos?  I'd happily pay 25 quid for one of these cameras so he could repeat the test. :)

He had 4, one already broken during first attempted insertion, and one of the others is hungry for more of his blood.  So send him 2 of these cameras, DHL express using his account. That way he has 2 samples, one to run with Batterpoo, one without, using batteries from the same batch, next to each other. Then swap the cameras and run again, so you have no unit variance.

After completion of the test one can be torn down to show how crappy it is, though I have already a guess, as I have one older Vivitar camera, that also ate batteries as well, but that at least used AA cells. IIRC it was a whole 2MP, and could do video as well, QVGA and audio in some horrid WMP codec abomination.

If you need a bit of cash I could send 5 quid to help, and I am sure we could crowdfund the other 45 quid from the members here.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on January 02, 2017, 11:29:43 pm

That camera also sounds like one where the Kentli lion+buck batteries mentioned a page or two back would work well in (and they would still beat an alkaline+batteriser):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1103603/#msg1103603 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1103603/#msg1103603)

Quote from: samgab on January 02, 2017, 11:09:00 pm

Edit2: Anyone else hate the voice they used for the voice-over in that camera test ad? She sounds so smug and slimy. Yuck.

Me too, "slimy" is a good way of putting it... as in lubricated with snake oil. ;) But that's beside the point, it would be just as deceptive with a less yucky voice.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on January 02, 2017, 11:34:31 pm

Quote from: samgab on January 02, 2017, 11:09:00 pm

Edit2: Anyone else hate the voice they used for the voice-over in that camera test ad? She sounds so smug and slimy. Yuck.

I am in love with her and I want to buy some Batteroos to prove it    :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edavid on January 02, 2017, 11:37:27 pm

Quote from: ez24 on January 02, 2017, 11:27:52 pm

Quote from: Delta on January 02, 2017, 11:02:16 pm

Has Dave got three AAA Batteryiseroos?  I'd happily pay £25 quid for one of these cameras so he could repeat the test. :)

The Camera uses AA not AAA.  I have used AAs in Panasonic, Nikon, and Canon cameras for years.  The test results really do not seem real to me.  Flashes suck the power and I do not think any of my cameras could have taken 50 flashes let alone 400.  So this is one test I hope someone someday can duplicate.

Even very simple cameras throttle the flash power, so the number of flashes you get depends on the distance and reflectivity of the subject.

There's no way to duplicate the test unless you can duplicate what the camera was facing  :(

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on January 02, 2017, 11:46:07 pm

Quote from: edavid on January 02, 2017, 11:37:27 pm

Even very simple cameras throttle the flash power, so the number of flashes you get depends on the distance and reflectivity of the subject.

Indeed, and with 2 cameras they cannot have the same view.  A test like this can only be valid using one camera in a fixed location.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 02, 2017, 11:49:04 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 02, 2017, 11:07:46 pm

I posted a comment to the video, let's see how long it survives :)

No, you probably didn't.  :)  Or, at least, it is doubtful that it is actually public.  Have you tried viewing the comments  while not logged in as you?  From a private window?

They have their videos set to require comment moderation so the comments aren't going to show up publicly until Batteroo Inc. approves them.  I find it rather doubtful that will ever happen to anything even remotely resembling a negative comment.  :)

Quote

Additional note: the quiescent current of the Batteroo sleeve is about 14 uA. With normal use, e.g. 8 hours per day, the battery in an Apple keyboard might last a month without the Batteroo sleeve (reported by some users on Amazon). This means the quiescent current of the Batteroo sleeve alone will reduce the battery life time significantly.

Wow, that is terrible battery life.  Is it a battery-sucking-Bluetooth keyboard?

The ancient Logitech Y-RJ21 which I traded back from a customer about 10 years ago because the sleep mode in the accompanying mouse quit working, is in constant daily use on one of my main computers gets a couple years of use out of a pair of AAs that have already been blasted in a high-drain device. 

It currently has a pair of Duracell Procells in it with an install-by date of Jan 2016 that I would have used in my old HP PhotoSmart 315 when that was my main camera.  I probably first blasted them in that camera close to 10 years ago...  I still have some of those in the drawer of "use in low discharge application" drawer of AAs..  LOL

That camera really sucks back the juice...  Very, very old...  I never used the LCD to take photos on alkalines...  WAY too much draw.  Without the LCD on, though, just using the viewfinder, I once took more than 1,000 shots at full resolution in one day without killing a set during a birthday party celebration trip for three friends who happen to have the same birthday.  Even viewed a few on the LCD in the wee hours of the morning before that set of cells finally gave up the ghost.  (Well, wouldn't power the camera any more, anyway... They might be in the keyboard right now for all I know.  :) )

The camera is rated 6.0v, 2.0A DC.  It is right here in front of me.  Still a good beater camera for times that I wouldn't want to take out the Canon.  The 315 has been though a lot, slid down and dropped off a multi-story roof during a multi-week off-the-grid cabin construction project, smashed, bashed and beaten in every imaginable way, but it still works perfectly.  (Amazing!)  When I first bought it, I was just waiting for anything over 1 MP to be semi-affordable...  I saw them drop the sale price from $499 to $399, and bought it.  It is a 1920x1080 and was well worth it for the all the use I put it through!

I doubt a Batteroo Sleeve would be able to do anything for it, though...  They would probably just give up and burst into flames the first time you try to power up!  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 03, 2017, 12:00:39 am

Quote from: ez24 on January 02, 2017, 11:27:52 pm

The Camera uses AA not AAA.

Nope...  The Vivitar in question uses three AAAs.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on January 03, 2017, 02:47:03 am

Quote from: drussell on January 03, 2017, 12:00:39 am

Quote from: ez24 on January 02, 2017, 11:27:52 pm

The Camera uses AA not AAA.

Nope...  The Vivitar in question uses three AAAs.

Crap  my apologies  :palm: :palm: :palm:

I did a test with my Canon A810 that uses 2-AAs.  I took flash pictures every 20 sec for 1 1/2 hours = 270 flashes.  I got real sore and my dogs cried so I stopped before the batteries did.  The batteries never died.  The space in the camera is about 1mm, but I know the sleeves would not work because the battery door is first closed then has to slide to lock.  The hooks on the sleeves would do damage.

I think Batteroo found a product that works and made a good video.  I think this will allow them to get more funding to make a better product and I think they should be able to redesign the hooks problem.  If it every hits Amazon then it may crash.

I do wish someone can duplicate the test but it will be expensive and hard.  I will contribute to the cause.   Maybe someone could start a Kickstarter on this.  I think there are enough people here to raise a couple hundred to do this (if there is a volunteer to build the pressers)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on January 03, 2017, 03:00:10 am

Roohparvar should be using Batterisers in all his own appliances, cameras and remote controls! What better way to show off your product by putting money where your mouth is?

Of course someone will probably need to send him a bulk lot of spare batteries since he'll be chewing threw them much faster.  >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 03, 2017, 03:22:39 am

Quote from: ez24 on January 03, 2017, 02:47:03 am

I do wish someone can duplicate the test but it will be expensive and hard.

The camera is such a piece of crap I don't think it worth bothering. I would rather see a test on a better camera where if it manages to supply the peak currents the batteriseroo will show around -15% battery life.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on January 03, 2017, 03:41:34 am

Quote from: Hensingler on January 03, 2017, 03:22:39 am

The camera is such a piece of crap I don't think it worth bothering. I would rather see a test on a better camera where if it manages to supply the peak currents the batteriseroo will show around -15% battery life.

I think it would be hard to find a "better" camera.  I do not think the bats will fit a "better" camera.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 03, 2017, 03:59:06 am

Quote from: Hensingler on January 03, 2017, 03:22:39 am

The camera is such a piece of crap I don't think it worth bothering. I would rather see a test on a better camera where if it manages to supply the peak currents the batteriseroo will show around -15% battery life.

Noooo...  Nooooo...  No, no, no....  :)

We must debunk whatever hooey Batteroo throws at us....

...being the "un-knowing" non-PHD engineers, scientists, hobbyists, enthusiasts, dramatic/performing/fine arts folks which we most assuredly all are...    >:D

:popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 03, 2017, 04:16:14 am

If Batteroo throws up a target - if at all possible, we HAVE to take a shot at it!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on January 03, 2017, 04:21:44 am

Quote from: drussell on January 03, 2017, 03:59:06 am

We must debunk whatever hooey Batteroo throws at us....

I agree and wonder if they did this when Dave went on vacation ?

No one can replicate the test until they can get 3 AAA Bats and 2 cameras and 2 pressers and 2 monkeys (they were in the picture and might have an influence on the flash time).

I would help support any member that could come up with the pressers.  The monkeys and cameras seem easy to get.

I tried taking pictures with my Canon A810 for 1 1/2 hours every 20 seconds (10 seconds did not work) and it was painful mentally and physically so a mechanical presser is necessary.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on January 03, 2017, 04:28:23 am

Quote from: ez24 on January 03, 2017, 04:21:44 am

I tried taking pictures with my Canon A810 for 1 1/2 hours every 20 seconds (10 seconds did not work) and it was painful mentally and physically so a mechanical presser is necessary.

This is what I had done... it needed the longer press time for the auto focus, then shutter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95AAOZGjuIc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95AAOZGjuIc)

But the ebay boost converters I had couldn't supply enough current to even charge the flash capacitor...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on January 03, 2017, 04:34:39 am

Reviews of that camera are universally bad, and a lot of them describe battery issues, including low battery warnings on brand new batteries. "Worst camera ever made"

Good luck getting a good test with it.

The good news is it's probably too dumb to do flash exposure evaluation.

If anyone gets a hold of AAs, I've got a cheap chinese manual hot-shoe flash I don't need anymore. No way I'd put these things in my speedlite.

It should be simple to make a AAA battery holder and wire it up to the flash as well, but then it won't be unmodified.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 03, 2017, 06:15:43 am

Quote from: ez24 on January 03, 2017, 04:21:44 am

No one can replicate the test until they can get 3 AAA Bats and 2 cameras and 2 pressers and 2 monkeys (they were in the picture and might have an influence on the flash time).

I would help support any member that could come up with the pressers.  The monkeys and cameras seem easy to get.

The test setup will never be, and does not need to be identical to the setup in the Batteroo video, (it could never be identical) as long as it is configured in a scientifically valid manner...  Indeed, it doesn't even require two cameras for side-by-side comparison, though that does easily make for great video...  :)

Multiple runs with one camera, properly orchestrated, is fully valid, even if not quite as theatrical.  You just need to be shooting identical scenes, from identical distances, with identical settings on the camera, etc. etc.  VERIFIABLY, PROPERLY DOCUMENTED

Quote from: Nerull on January 03, 2017, 04:34:39 am

Reviews of that camera are universally bad, and a lot of them describe battery issues, including low battery warnings on brand new batteries. "Worst camera ever made"

Good luck getting a good test with it.

The good news is it's probably too dumb to do flash exposure evaluation.

Indeed!

Though, saying you won't be able to get a "good test with it" makes little sense...

As a product, it is what it is.. Regardless of how poorly designed it is, we can test it properly!

Edit:  I would not be surprised if they have been searching far and wide for products that are reported to have battery life issues, trying to find those one-off examples that they can use to try to deceive the unsuspecting public into believing their grandiose hype.

My local version of this little doodad is pegged off the scale!  -->   :bullshit:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on January 03, 2017, 06:40:33 am

From henceforth until that video can be debunked, I propose we switch to calling the contraption "Vivitaroo"  :-DD

I can imagine Bob and Franky going on stage in the 'magician stage' set up to a fanfare, announcing "BEHOLD! 5 YEARS OF OUR RESEARCH PROVEN ON THIS HIGHLY SOPHISTICATED MODERN DEVICE!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on January 03, 2017, 07:48:18 am

The tracking shows my AAs just entered the country, so they should arrive in a day or two.

I think Daves were sent in the same batch so his should arrive soon as well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on January 03, 2017, 07:51:42 am

This is probably never going to happen but what would be really funny is a test of alkaline+batteriser vs. lion+buck KentLi PH7s in this camera. I suspect the latter is going to win.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 03, 2017, 09:12:43 am

Quote from: ez24 on January 03, 2017, 04:21:44 am

Quote from: drussell on January 03, 2017, 03:59:06 am

We must debunk whatever hooey Batteroo throws at us....

I agree and wonder if they did this when Dave went on vacation ?

What have I missed?
Oh, ok, I see it now. Camera test on their Facebook.
They won't tell you that you'll get the same increase or better with rechargeables  ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: sakujo7 on January 03, 2017, 09:28:43 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 03, 2017, 09:12:43 am

They won't tell you that you'll get the same increase or better with rechargeables  ::)

They also won't tell you how many cameras they went through before they finally found one where the batteriseroo helped.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 03, 2017, 09:34:15 am

Quote from: rich on January 02, 2017, 06:38:28 pm

Finally definitive proof, direct from Batteroo.
Vivitar digital cameras 3 x AAA batteries.
Set up to take photos in forced flash mode. One pic every 10 seconds.
The claim is 172 pics without sleeve, 616 with.
edit to add: The flash does seem to stop working at 172 pics, but the camera looks like it is still taking pictures up to about 420.

They have chosen the Flash time to give them the result they want. No one does it like that, continuous flash every 10 seconds, that's BS. The is compleetly non real-world and battery chemistry factors will dominate.
There is a CIPA standard for this for a reason:
http://www.cipa.jp/std/documents/e/DC-002_e.pdf (http://www.cipa.jp/std/documents/e/DC-002_e.pdf)
30 seconds per shot, flash every other shot, with a power down every 10th shot.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on January 03, 2017, 09:56:17 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 03, 2017, 09:34:15 am

Quote from: rich on January 02, 2017, 06:38:28 pm

Finally definitive proof, direct from Batteroo.
Vivitar digital cameras 3 x AAA batteries.
Set up to take photos in forced flash mode. One pic every 10 seconds.
The claim is 172 pics without sleeve, 616 with.
edit to add: The flash does seem to stop working at 172 pics, but the camera looks like it is still taking pictures up to about 420.

They have chosen the Flash time to give them the result they want. No one does it like that, continuous flash every 10 seconds, that's BS. The is compleetly non real-world and battery chemistry factors will dominate.
There is a CIPA standard for this for a reason:
http://www.cipa.jp/std/documents/e/DC-002_e.pdf (http://www.cipa.jp/std/documents/e/DC-002_e.pdf)
30 seconds per shot, flash every other shot, with a power down every 10th shot.

Because professional photographer takes a picture every 10 seconds, right? they can get the right picture 'frame' they wanted under 30 seconds, get the correct camera tilt, get the correct focus, get the feel for the correct lighting

... Batteroo, 800% more blurry pictures  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Twoflower on January 03, 2017, 10:29:26 am

Quote from: Nerull on January 03, 2017, 04:34:39 am

Reviews of that camera are universally bad, and a lot of them describe battery issues, including low battery warnings on brand new batteries. "Worst camera ever made"
[...]

(emphasis done by me)

This is actually the trick. This camera seem ho have a very high switch off level. I wouldn't wonder if accus won't work at all in that cam. While actually accus + Batterdingens actually might work as they boost the 1.2V to 1.5V (with all the downsides of course). Said that I wouldn't wonder if Batteroo actually will do this test and make a big story out of it. |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on January 03, 2017, 10:32:05 am

Quote from: Luminax on January 03, 2017, 09:56:17 am

Because professional photographer takes a picture every 10 seconds, right?
... Batteroo, 800% more blurry pictures  :-DD

I once took pictures for an art gallery.  They had a contest each month and placed all the paintings on the floor leaning against the wall.  Then a judge would pick the winners, which with all the classes came to about 25.  Once they finished judging there were people hanging the pictures and they were in a hurry.  I HAD about 10 secs to take each picture.  I tried alkaline, NiMh, and NiCad batteries and only NiCad batteries could recycle the flash in time to keep up with them.  And I was a volunteer !  I had to correct for everything in Photoshop.  After a few months I got to the point it did not bother me.  BUT I am not a professional.  But I imagine there are professionals needing to take many rapid flash pictures.

Also I think with modeling rapid flashes are needed to get a lot of pictures.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on January 03, 2017, 10:38:53 am

Either way, a protog assuredly won't be using a Vivitar S126, or Alkaline cells for that matter.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Domagoj T on January 03, 2017, 10:57:33 am

Professional flashes, with good batteries, have no problem with charging in 10 seconds, even when at full power, which is rarely needed. At 1/16 or 1/32 power, which is much more common, even the cheap Chinese ones have no issues with multiple sub second recycles, at least the two Yongnuos I have, and all the pricey Canon Speedlights I've ever used.

As for the Butteroo camera test, sure, they monkeyed it, it's just a matter of time before someone with both Batterizer and that camera model repeats the test and sees what's the issue, but I wouldn't criticize the 10 second interval. Be honest Dave, the CIPA standard you posted would be a lot more complicated to set up and automate. It would require at least three servos per camera, which would introduce unnecessary clutter in the test jig and would not be transparent to the viewer.
Yes, the test needs to be repeated and the camera examined for the shut down voltage, since there is obviously something horribly wrong with the design, but as I see it, the 10 second interval is the least important issue.

Model photography (fashion and stuff) in studio doesn't rely on battery operated flashes. They are supplied by mains.

That being said, I have several cameras, among which an otherwise quite decent Sony point and shoot that is, however, notoriously battery hungry, even when powered off. I also have an old Konica Minolta one I bought at a flee market for about $3 that works just fine. Hopefully the Batteroos I ordered a week ago will arrive soon. I still haven't received tracking details or shipping confirmation, but I'm giving them some slack due to all the holidays.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on January 03, 2017, 11:33:28 am

Quote from: Luminax on January 03, 2017, 09:56:17 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 03, 2017, 09:34:15 am

Quote from: rich on January 02, 2017, 06:38:28 pm

Finally definitive proof, direct from Batteroo.
Vivitar digital cameras 3 x AAA batteries.
Set up to take photos in forced flash mode. One pic every 10 seconds.
The claim is 172 pics without sleeve, 616 with.
edit to add: The flash does seem to stop working at 172 pics, but the camera looks like it is still taking pictures up to about 420.

They have chosen the Flash time to give them the result they want. No one does it like that, continuous flash every 10 seconds, that's BS. The is compleetly non real-world and battery chemistry factors will dominate.
There is a CIPA standard for this for a reason:
http://www.cipa.jp/std/documents/e/DC-002_e.pdf (http://www.cipa.jp/std/documents/e/DC-002_e.pdf)
30 seconds per shot, flash every other shot, with a power down every 10th shot.

Because professional photographer takes a picture every 10 seconds, right? they can get the right picture 'frame' they wanted under 30 seconds, get the correct camera tilt, get the correct focus, get the feel for the correct lighting

... Batteroo, 800% more blurry pictures  :-DD

In some contexts (sports), they will take 15 FPS, not 10 SPF ;) but not usually with battery powered flashes.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: TechnicalBen on January 03, 2017, 11:41:11 am

Careful. Some of you seem to be falling down the rabbit hole. In what way? Well lets give an example.

Say I invent some new car fuel additive that makes turns your car into a flying car. Obviously I made this up. You disprove me by putting it in a car, and showing it does not fly.

So I come back with a counter claim it only works on a Wednesday, in a thunderstorm, while singing chasing cars by snow patrol... so you replicate this test and disprove me... so I claim you need to sing it 3 times in c minor...

Can you see the problem? Proving the physics and use limits of the Batterizer is enough. Copying every crazy harebrained scheme they come up with to be false is nuts.

[Edited out spelling mistakes from my mobile :P]

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 03, 2017, 12:04:25 pm

Quote from: edavid on January 02, 2017, 11:37:27 pm

There's no way to duplicate the test unless you can duplicate what the camera was facing  :(

But knowing this, you can do a simlar test where the Batteroo 'loses' then do a big reveal at the end to show what the trick is.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 03, 2017, 12:06:46 pm

Our favorite shill is back...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=282707;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 03, 2017, 01:07:23 pm

Quote from: edavid on January 02, 2017, 11:21:44 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 02, 2017, 11:07:46 pm

Additional note: the quiescent current of the Batteroo sleeve is about 14 uA. With normal use, e.g. 8 hours per day, the battery in an Apple keyboard might last a month without the Batteroo sleeve (reported by some users on Amazon). This means the quiescent current of the Batteroo sleeve alone will reduce the battery life time significantly.

That does not compute.  A 2000mAh AA cell can supply 14uA for 16 years.  I think the sleep current of the keyboard is at least 100uA, based on the 2 year-ish battery life I get on a seldom used keyboard.

You are right. Of course, the Apple wireless keyboard I tested here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1097901/#msg1097901) has a cutoff voltage of 1 V, so there is not much energy left in the Battery to boost it. Combine this with the low efficiency at low currents (should be verified, I tried to test it, see here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1096221/#msg1096221), and extended to lower currents as well) and I guess it would be the same as all the other tests so far: use the sleeve with a fresh battery and you get less time than without, and use it on a dead battery and you will get only a very low percentage of additional time, compared to a dead battery, which recovered for some time and then used again.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on January 03, 2017, 01:36:07 pm

They can't even get the number of cells right.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: iaeen on January 03, 2017, 01:49:57 pm

Quote from: TechnicalBen on January 03, 2017, 11:41:11 am

Careful. You some of you seem to be falling down the rabbit hole. In what way? Well lets give an example.

Say I invent some new car feul additive that makes turns your car into a flying car. Oviously I made this up. You disprove me by putting it in a car, and showing it does not fly.

So I come back with a counter claim it only works on a Wednesday, in a thunderstorm, while singing chasing cars by snow patrol... so you replicate this test and disprove me... so I claim you need to sing it 3 times in c minor...

Can you see the problem? Proving the physics and use limits of the Batterizer is enough. Copying every crazy hairbrained scheme they come up with to be false is nuts.

This.

Disproving their bullshit is all fun and good, but basically these guys are like forum trolls. Don't let them control you. We should enjoy the show  :popcorn:

There's plenty of information out there to debunk their product, not to mention their product will debunk itself in short order.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: john72 on January 03, 2017, 01:55:03 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 03, 2017, 09:12:43 am

Quote from: ez24 on January 03, 2017, 04:21:44 am

Quote from: drussell on January 03, 2017, 03:59:06 am

We must debunk whatever hooey Batteroo throws at us....

I agree and wonder if they did this when Dave went on vacation ?

What have I missed?
Oh, ok, I see it now. Camera test on their Facebook.
They won't tell you that you'll get the same increase or better with rechargeables  ::)

Not to mention that the rechargeable batteries would every camera/products on today's market! :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JiggyNinja on January 03, 2017, 02:11:23 pm

Quote from: TechnicalBen on January 03, 2017, 11:41:11 am

Careful. You some of you seem to be falling down the rabbit hole. In what way? Well lets give an example.

Say I invent some new car feul additive that makes turns your car into a flying car. Oviously I made this up. You disprove me by putting it in a car, and showing it does not fly.

So I come back with a counter claim it only works on a Wednesday, in a thunderstorm, while singing chasing cars by snow patrol... so you replicate this test and disprove me... so I claim you need to sing it 3 times in c minor...

Can you see the problem? Proving the physics and use limits of the Batterizer is enough. Copying every crazy hairbrained scheme they come up with to be false is nuts.

I had the same feelings. I'll reproduce my comment (with minor edits) from the testing thread.

TL;DR for the rest: It's clear that Batteroo has been a scam from the very beginning. What's next?

It is an awful state of affairs that the various real engineers here and elsewhere have had to put 1,000x more effort into DEBUNKING this useless piece of shit than Batteroo ever put into justifying their claims. Their banner spec was not more consistent performance or a minor boost to battery life, it was 8X LONGER!!!!, and their derivation (if it can be called that) of that figure was not "grossly oversimplified", it was fraudulently ignorant. And on top of that, their numbers weren't even consistent! They were saying 8x longer in some spots, and "80% unused energy" in another, which is 1/5th used. Those two numbers don't match. The defenders only offer strawmen, double standards, and moving goalposts in response to thorough criticism.

In a just world, just FrankBuss's first results were infinitely more thorough and honest than anything they ever showed. In a just world, we would only have to throw those results back in their face and say "Your move". Unfortunately, we do not live in a just world.

There is quite literally no excuse for their behavior during their entire campaign. An honest campaign would have shown a proof-of-concept using normal-size components getting their 8X LONGER!!!! banner spec, then said "we want money to work on miniaturizing this". After all, if they can't get the performance they need out of existing modern components unconstrained by size, there's no way in hell their weird, esoteric production process (if they even have one!) for making smaller components could beat it.

They didn't do that. They had nothing solid, and all their explanations at the beginning were voodoo engineering instead of anything legit. If they didn't know it was a heap of shit they were selling at the beginning, they would have found out very quickly when they tried to actually implemented it. The results from Dave and others are so unambiguous that there can be no dispute that Batteroo know that it's a dud. Given their vagueness from the beginning, I'm 95% sure it was never anything more than a con  anyway.

The question then should probably turn to legal remedies. They are making money off of fraud. IANAL, but the US does have lemon laws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_law) that might form the basis of a backlash against this, and I'm sure other countries will have similar consumer protection laws. They've probably never been used against a crowdfunding campaign, but everything's got to start somewhere. If this was a high-profile enough campaign it might be a good test case. That might depend on whether crowdfunding backers are considered "consumers" or "investors" though. I believe there are less protections for investors, which would provide way too huge of a loophole for these slimy bastards to ooze through.

Adding on to that, they've now got a camera test. On top of suspicions of rigged testing parameters again, it looks like they scraped the bottom of the barrel to get the crappiest piece of crap they could find. The Batterizers for the camera are worth 1/4 the price of the camera itself!

Just to say it clearly, they know that their product is worthless. They are fully aware that they took people's money for a stupidly optimistic shot at best, and false pretenses at worst. Scammers will never admit to running a scam though, so under criticism they have to twist, bend, stretch, and even outright fabricate the truth to serve their ends. Admitting that this whole project is worthless will either irreparably damage their credibility at best, or invite legal action at worst.

It doesn't take mind reading to know that they know, their behavior is classic scummy scammy bullshit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 03, 2017, 02:36:34 pm

Quote from: JiggyNinja on January 03, 2017, 02:11:23 pm

It is an awful state of affairs that the various real engineers here and elsewhere have had to put 1,000x more effort into DEBUNKING this useless piece of shit than Batteroo ever put into justifying their claims.

But it's fun, so...  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 03, 2017, 03:17:51 pm

Quote from: Brumby on January 03, 2017, 04:16:14 am

If Batteroo throws up a target - if at all possible, we HAVE to take a shot at it!

And probably miss. This camera is so crappy it may well be an application where batteriseroos work. People's time may be better spent demonstrating it isn't the general case for digital cameras.

It might be worth quickly characterising this crappy camera to confirm it is as bad as it seems to be. In the UK most Argos stores seem to have stock at £25.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 03, 2017, 05:20:51 pm

Quote from: samgab link=topic=48950.msg1104817#msg1104817

IIRC, he received three AAA types in total in the batch from a user, but one of them fell apart the first time he tried to use it (soldered tabs fell off) so he has only two AAA left. The other one could certainly still be used with a bit of metal soldered on to make contact, but I think he was going to attach wires to it for more thorough bench testing.

He still has the original Batteroo "pronger".  He can just solder it back on if need be since it looks like it was just bad solder joints rather than actually damaging the PCB.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 03, 2017, 06:17:15 pm

Quote from: drussell on January 03, 2017, 05:20:51 pm

He still has the original Batteroo "pronger".  He can just solder it back on if need be since it looks like it was just bad solder joints rather than actually damaging the PCB.

"Bad joints"?

Maybe you meant "bad design"?  Solder was never going to hold those prongs on under any sort of stress.

(http://i.imgur.com/5RpwdoZ.jpg)

At the very least it should have some tabs that go through slots in the PCB or something like that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 03, 2017, 07:00:43 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 03, 2017, 06:17:15 pm

"Bad joints"?

Maybe you meant "bad design"?  Solder was never going to hold those prongs on under any sort of stress.
...
At the very least it should have some tabs that go through slots in the PCB or something like that.

Well, the whole design is silly, of course, but they would hold on a little better if the solder was actually fully stuck to the "prongy" thing.  Without better mechanical support, though, they are going to be prone to breaking off or ripping the pads off the PCB, regardless.

My point was that Dave should easily be able to repair the fourth AAA sleeve to working condition if he needs a fourth one for product testing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on January 03, 2017, 07:54:10 pm

Quote from: TechnicalBen on January 03, 2017, 11:41:11 am

Careful. Some of you seem to be falling down the rabbit hole. In what way? Well lets give an example.

Say I invent some new car fuel additive that makes turns your car into a flying car. Obviously I made this up. You disprove me by putting it in a car, and showing it does not fly.

So I come back with a counter claim it only works on a Wednesday, in a thunderstorm, while singing chasing cars by snow patrol... so you replicate this test and disprove me... so I claim you need to sing it 3 times in c minor...

Can you see the problem? Proving the physics and use limits of the Batterizer is enough. Copying every crazy harebrained scheme they come up with to be false is nuts.

[Edited out spelling mistakes from my mobile :P]

This principle is critical to the discussion.
We must clearly understand what the Batteroo argument is at its core.
Our collective goal should not be to discredit Bob and his cronies, or call them out as charlatans... but to have them admit their invention is not capable of delivering what they promise and promote.

The fact they are pushing this barrow so hard in the face of logical argument and verifiable physics, is simply the icing on the cake.
They are discrediting themselves, we really don't have to do anything.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: spider on January 03, 2017, 08:06:47 pm

The reason why Batteroo choose the Vivitar camera

https://twitter.com/GoBatteroo/status/816368105681289216

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on January 03, 2017, 09:15:04 pm

Quote from: spider on January 03, 2017, 08:06:47 pm

The reason why Batteroo choose the Vivitar camera

https://twitter.com/GoBatteroo/status/816368105681289216

They chose that shitty camera because it is a "Best seller on Amazon"?  As far as I can tell from a quick browse on Amazon, that statement is utter bollocks.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 03, 2017, 09:18:52 pm

Quote from: TechnicalBen on January 03, 2017, 11:41:11 am

Can you see the problem? Proving the physics and use limits of the Batterizer is enough. Copying every crazy harebrained scheme they come up with to be false is nuts.

If they are being fraudulent with the testing and that can be exposed, then that's a good thing to do. The Golf GPS was a good example, Technology Catalyst showed there was a mechanism whereby they could rig the test.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 03, 2017, 10:06:20 pm

Quote from: Delta on January 03, 2017, 09:15:04 pm

Quote from: spider on January 03, 2017, 08:06:47 pm

The reason why Batteroo choose the Vivitar camera

https://twitter.com/GoBatteroo/status/816368105681289216 (https://twitter.com/GoBatteroo/status/816368105681289216)

They chose that shitty camera because it is a "Best seller on Amazon"?  As far as I can tell from a quick browse on Amazon, that statement is utter bollocks.

I can't find it on Amazon at all. The only one I can find with the model number S126 is this one:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digital-Camera-Vivitar-S126-Compact/dp/B016H69TI4 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digital-Camera-Vivitar-S126-Compact/dp/B016H69TI4)

And this looks different from the one on this site (http://www.argos.co.uk/product/4187156): rectangle lens instead of round. And the name on the photo says "F126".

There is another one, can't read the model number, maybe the blurry photo was taken with the camera itself? :-DD

https://www.amazon.com/Vivitar-ViviCam-VS126-BLU-Megapixel-Digital/dp/B01M5L3TJN (https://www.amazon.com/Vivitar-ViviCam-VS126-BLU-Megapixel-Digital/dp/B01M5L3TJN)

But again, not a round lens. In their video you can see at 0:38 a round lens, too, so it is a different model.

A similar one:

https://www.amazon.com/Vivitar-VF126-ViviCam-Digital-Camera/dp/B00TIJK856/ (https://www.amazon.com/Vivitar-VF126-ViviCam-Digital-Camera/dp/B00TIJK856/)

Reviews: 56% with 1 star.

Best Sellers Rank: #3,958 in Camera & Photo
#57 in Electronics > Camera & Photo > Digital Cameras > Interchangeable Lens Cameras > Mirrorless Cameras

Good choice  :-+

Plot twist: Maybe Vivitar doesn't sell this specific S126 model anymore, because the battery cutoff voltage was crap?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Devore on January 03, 2017, 10:29:05 pm

I think the lens of the S126 was redesigned.  For example, this review's picture matches the camera in the video:

http://vsbee.com/cameras/reviews/Vivitar_S126-camera-review (http://vsbee.com/cameras/reviews/Vivitar_S126-camera-review)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on January 03, 2017, 10:42:23 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 03, 2017, 09:18:52 pm

Quote from: TechnicalBen on January 03, 2017, 11:41:11 am

Can you see the problem? Proving the physics and use limits of the Batterizer is enough. Copying every crazy harebrained scheme they come up with to be false is nuts.

If they are being fraudulent with the testing and that can be exposed, then that's a good thing to do. The Golf GPS was a good example, Technology Catalyst showed there was a mechanism whereby they could rig the test.

I also would like to know if they rigged the test (my guts says yes).  I think if you could start a Kickstarter, it would only take a few days to come up with the funds to get the equipment (funds to get the pressers made) and it may be possible that it would be ready for you when you get back from vacation.'

As a long shot maybe just ask the members to contribute to the cause.  I think there is enough interest and someone showed that they built a presser.  If you like I could take the lead on this.  I would try and find a member in Australia to receive funds and place the orders. 

When I tried to take flashes every 10 seconds with my AA camera, after about 3 min the camera wanted more time and I could not take any pictures at 10 sec., the camera said Wait for time to charge the system.    I do not see this type of delay in their video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on January 03, 2017, 10:48:22 pm

Quote from: Luminax on January 03, 2017, 09:56:17 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 03, 2017, 09:34:15 am

Quote from: rich on January 02, 2017, 06:38:28 pm

Finally definitive proof, direct from Batteroo.
Vivitar digital cameras 3 x AAA batteries.
Set up to take photos in forced flash mode. One pic every 10 seconds.
The claim is 172 pics without sleeve, 616 with.
edit to add: The flash does seem to stop working at 172 pics, but the camera looks like it is still taking pictures up to about 420.

They have chosen the Flash time to give them the result they want. No one does it like that, continuous flash every 10 seconds, that's BS. The is compleetly non real-world and battery chemistry factors will dominate.
There is a CIPA standard for this for a reason:
http://www.cipa.jp/std/documents/e/DC-002_e.pdf (http://www.cipa.jp/std/documents/e/DC-002_e.pdf)
30 seconds per shot, flash every other shot, with a power down every 10th shot.

Because professional photographer takes a picture every 10 seconds, right? they can get the right picture 'frame' they wanted under 30 seconds, get the correct camera tilt, get the correct focus, get the feel for the correct lighting

... Batteroo, 800% more blurry pictures  :-DD

Eh, depending on what they are photographing, 10 seconds is pretty long. There's a reason high end professional cameras can shoot many frames per second. Professional sports photographers will commonly take a few thousand photos per event.
But you wouldn't shoot like that with flash - they take time to charge.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 03, 2017, 10:49:34 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 03, 2017, 10:06:20 pm

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digital-Camera-Vivitar-S126-Compact/dp/B016H69TI4 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digital-Camera-Vivitar-S126-Compact/dp/B016H69TI4)

That has F126 in the image.

Quote

https://www.amazon.com/Vivitar-ViviCam-VS126-BLU-Megapixel-Digital/dp/B01M5L3TJN (https://www.amazon.com/Vivitar-ViviCam-VS126-BLU-Megapixel-Digital/dp/B01M5L3TJN)

And that looks like the same image re-compressed.

An S126 here https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1248573-REG/vivitar_vs126_blu_vivicam_s126_digital_camera.html (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1248573-REG/vivitar_vs126_blu_vivicam_s126_digital_camera.html)

and another F126 which seems to have an LED flash allowing some smoke and mirrors here https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1081311-REG/vivitar_vf126_blu_int_14mp_camera_1_8_tft.html (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1081311-REG/vivitar_vf126_blu_int_14mp_camera_1_8_tft.html)

This https://www.amazon.com/Kodak-PIXPRO-Friendly-Digital-Optical/dp/B0195XJAZI/ (https://www.amazon.com/Kodak-PIXPRO-Friendly-Digital-Optical/dp/B0195XJAZI/) genuinely is a popular camera on Amazon (Rank #9 in Camera & Photo > Point & Shoot Digital Cameras) and runs on 2 x AA.

I would rather see the Kodak tested with batteriseroos than an attempt to reproduce the batteriseroo test on the Vivitar piece of crap.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 03, 2017, 11:16:38 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on January 03, 2017, 10:49:34 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 03, 2017, 10:06:20 pm

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digital-Camera-Vivitar-S126-Compact/dp/B016H69TI4 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digital-Camera-Vivitar-S126-Compact/dp/B016H69TI4)

That has F126 in the image.

Quote

https://www.amazon.com/Vivitar-ViviCam-VS126-BLU-Megapixel-Digital/dp/B01M5L3TJN (https://www.amazon.com/Vivitar-ViviCam-VS126-BLU-Megapixel-Digital/dp/B01M5L3TJN)

And that looks like the same image re-compressed.

An S126 here https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1248573-REG/vivitar_vs126_blu_vivicam_s126_digital_camera.html (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1248573-REG/vivitar_vs126_blu_vivicam_s126_digital_camera.html)

and another F126 which seems to have an LED flash allowing some smoke and mirrors here https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1081311-REG/vivitar_vf126_blu_int_14mp_camera_1_8_tft.html (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1081311-REG/vivitar_vf126_blu_int_14mp_camera_1_8_tft.html)

This https://www.amazon.com/Kodak-PIXPRO-Friendly-Digital-Optical/dp/B0195XJAZI/ (https://www.amazon.com/Kodak-PIXPRO-Friendly-Digital-Optical/dp/B0195XJAZI/) genuinely is a popular camera on Amazon (Rank #9 in Camera & Photo > Point & Shoot Digital Cameras) and runs on 2 x AA.

I would rather see the Kodak tested with batteriseroos than an attempt to reproduce the batteriseroo test on the Vivitar piece of crap.

Both the S126 and F126 have incredibly good reviews!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 03, 2017, 11:18:18 pm

Quote from: drussell on January 02, 2017, 11:49:04 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 02, 2017, 11:07:46 pm

I posted a comment to the video, let's see how long it survives :)

No, you probably didn't.  :)  Or, at least, it is doubtful that it is actually public.  Have you tried viewing the comments  while not logged in as you?  From a private window?

Right, not visible from a private browser. 3 hidden comments now.

Quote

Quote

Additional note: the quiescent current of the Batteroo sleeve is about 14 uA. With normal use, e.g. 8 hours per day, the battery in an Apple keyboard might last a month without the Batteroo sleeve (reported by some users on Amazon). This means the quiescent current of the Batteroo sleeve alone will reduce the battery life time significantly.

Wow, that is terrible battery life.  Is it a battery-sucking-Bluetooth keyboard?

Yes, it is Bluetooth, a really old one, model A1016 from 2003. Probably the comments here are related to it:

http://www.apple.com/shop/question/answers/readonly/what-is-the-estimated-battery-life-for-the-wireless-keyboard-and-mouse/QK7YTF9CKYJCYKAYC (http://www.apple.com/shop/question/answers/readonly/what-is-the-estimated-battery-life-for-the-wireless-keyboard-and-mouse/QK7YTF9CKYJCYKAYC)

Too bad it doesn't pair with my iPad: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2413712 (https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2413712) Really stupid that it shows the code for a second, *after* you entered the wrong code (and yes, I screencaptured it and entered it again, then it says it doesn't support this keyboard) |O But it works with my MacBook. Looks like Apple wants to sell only their newer keyboards.

Apple's latest "magic" wireless Bluetooth keyboard has internal rechargeable batteries anyway, which are charged over USB, not a good example for a product for Batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on January 03, 2017, 11:33:54 pm

Quote from: Delta on January 03, 2017, 09:15:04 pm

Quote from: spider on January 03, 2017, 08:06:47 pm

The reason why Batteroo choose the Vivitar camera

https://twitter.com/GoBatteroo/status/816368105681289216

They chose that shitty camera because it is a "Best seller on Amazon"?  As far as I can tell from a quick browse on Amazon, that statement is utter bollocks.

"We chose that model of the Vivitar camera because it's a best seller on Amazon." Come on, let's just call that what it is: A blatant lie. This is one of the worst cameras out there and rated incredibly badly on Amazon, and very difficult to still purchase because it is discontinued. Of course, how it is rated on Amazon is irrelevant to how Batteroo's perform in it, but why are they so blatantly dishonest all the time? I would have dropped this whole Batteroo debacle ages ago if they were just honest. Also, why be so dishonest when a quick look at Amazon shows the truth in seconds?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on January 04, 2017, 12:13:16 am

From Wikipedia....

"Pseudoscience is often characterized by the following: contradictory, exaggerated or unprovable claims; reliance on confirmation bias rather than rigorous attempts at refutation; lack of openness to evaluation by other experts; and absence of systematic practices when developing theories. The term pseudoscience is often considered pejorative because it suggests something is being presented as science inaccurately or even deceptively. Accordingly, those termed as practicing or advocating pseudoscience often dispute the characterization."

Otherwise known as Batteroo's business model.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on January 04, 2017, 12:53:58 am

Quote from: samgab on January 03, 2017, 11:33:54 pm

Quote from: Delta on January 03, 2017, 09:15:04 pm

Quote from: spider on January 03, 2017, 08:06:47 pm

The reason why Batteroo choose the Vivitar camera

https://twitter.com/GoBatteroo/status/816368105681289216 (https://twitter.com/GoBatteroo/status/816368105681289216)

They chose that shitty camera because it is a "Best seller on Amazon"?  As far as I can tell from a quick browse on Amazon, that statement is utter bollocks.

"We chose that model of the Vivitar camera because it's a best seller on Amazon."

If the scammers at Batteroo were serious, and if people who actually believe in Bob Rohparvar were smart, they'd know that when it comes to digital cameras, Vivitar is one of the worst brands ever. They had a name in the past, but like many others, they've pretty much become one of those companies that simply stamp their names on cheap chinese stuff.

This camera is so cheap it isn't even listed on DP Review.

On B&H Photo Video (one of the world's top online stores for photo gear), this camera has a rating of 1 ou of 5.

It isn't even listed on Adorama. That already says a lot!

This camera was chosen based on these factors:
- it is not a mainstream camera so not that many people can instantly repeat the tests. Actually, what type of people buy Vivitar DSCs?
- it is one of the few DSC being sold (are they?) that still use AA batteries
- it's battery compartment is so badly designed that it will fit the AA batteries with the sleeve (what a waste of space)
- it's power system is so badly designed it actually benefits from the batteroo sleeve

I wonder how long it took batteroo to find that camera. I wonder how many devices they tested their batteroos on before finding that crappy camera.

Edit: there is a Vivitar F126 on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/Vivitar-ViviCam-Digital-Camera-Megapixels/dp/B00SJKG5XE (https://www.amazon.com/Vivitar-ViviCam-Digital-Camera-Megapixels/dp/B00SJKG5XE)) and the price starts at US$ 12 (refurbished). 47% of the 17 reviews give it only 1 star.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 04, 2017, 01:48:41 am

I'm thinking my next video should be simply "The Top X Ways The Batteriser FAILED"
Or maybe "Batteriser - The Ultimate Product FAIL"
It's now clearly evident that there basically is no redeeming feature of the Batteriser, it's as bad or worse than we expected. So why not simply highlight the top 10(?) ways in which it fails?

Lack of robustness
Limited product fit
Limited increased performance (the failed train test)
Claimed increased battery life is actually the opposite (the MP3 and other tests)
No miracle performance with their customised IC, it's just a very ordinary boost converter.
Pretty awful ripple results.
Overheating (TBC)
Not to mention the multitude of ridiculous claims, their change of direction & backpedaling, the rigged GPS test, and maybe a similarly rigged camera test now.

And I haven't even thought about that list...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 04, 2017, 02:26:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 04, 2017, 01:48:41 am

I'm thinking my next video should be simply "The Top X Ways The Batteriser FAILED"
Or maybe "Batteriser - The Ultimate Product FAIL"
It's now clearly evident that there basically is no redeeming feature of the Batteriser, it's as bad or worse than we expected. So why not simply highlight the top 10(?) ways in which it fails?

Good idea. One interesting thing missing is the point "Are there limitations on devices that can use Batteroo Boost based on the current consumptions?" from the FAQ as well and their claim from one of their older videos that it helps for devices with high current spikes. I guess it doesn't work at all in such devices. And don't forget to test it in probes the monkey :)

PS: Don't know if it was mentioned here before, but if you look at batteroo.com at the "products" page, the sleeve with the "Batteroo" text is a bit different now, with perforation at the side, in the image where it is pushed in the Apple keyboard. And the "technology" page shows six solder pads for the battery plus terminal tongues instead of four with the old Batteriser sleeve, but this might be for the D cell version, only. But there is no other photo on the webpage with the sleeve with the perforation from the products page.

And in the Apple keyboard video you can see that they are using sleeves with the Batteroo text (but no perforation at the side). So they might have three different version and indeed shipped pre-production units with the Batteriser text. Next they will tell us, that the Batteriser sleeves don't perform as good as the Batteroo sleeves and all our tests are invalid :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on January 04, 2017, 03:03:50 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 04, 2017, 01:48:41 am

I'm thinking my next video should be simply "The Top X Ways The Batteriser FAILED"
Or maybe "Batteriser - The Ultimate Product FAIL"
It's now clearly evident that there basically is no redeeming feature of the Batteriser, it's as bad or worse than we expected. So why not simply highlight the top 10(?) ways in which it fails?

Lack of robustness
Limited product fit
Limited increased performance (the failed train test)
Claimed increased battery life is actually the opposite (the MP3 and other tests)
No miracle performance with their customised IC, it's just a very ordinary boost converter.
Pretty awful ripple results.
Overheating (TBC)
Not to mention the multitude of ridiculous claims, their change of direction & backpedaling, the rigged GPS test, and maybe a similarly rigged camera test now.

And I haven't even thought about that list...

Maybe before that conclusion vid, one more in the interim could be the in depth bench testing? Just a suggestion.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on January 04, 2017, 03:26:34 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 04, 2017, 02:26:19 am

And don't forget to test it in probes the monkey

Has anyone noticed something funny in their video?  There are two monkeys in their video but they do not test them?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on January 04, 2017, 03:29:12 am

Quote from: ez24 on January 04, 2017, 03:26:34 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 04, 2017, 02:26:19 am

And don't forget to test it in probes the monkey

Has anyone noticed something funny in their video?  There are two monkeys in their video but they do not test them?

They probably originally purchased two intending to do a similar video, but tested them off-camera and found that the Batteriser didn't work.

Quote from: samgab on January 03, 2017, 11:33:54 pm

Quote from: Delta on January 03, 2017, 09:15:04 pm

Quote from: spider on January 03, 2017, 08:06:47 pm

The reason why Batteroo choose the Vivitar camera

https://twitter.com/GoBatteroo/status/816368105681289216

They chose that shitty camera because it is a "Best seller on Amazon"?  As far as I can tell from a quick browse on Amazon, that statement is utter bollocks.

"We chose that model of the Vivitar camera because it's a best seller on Amazon." Come on, let's just call that what it is: A blatant lie. This is one of the worst cameras out there and rated incredibly badly on Amazon, and very difficult to still purchase because it is discontinued. Of course, how it is rated on Amazon is irrelevant to how Batteroo's perform in it, but why are they so blatantly dishonest all the time? I would have dropped this whole Batteroo debacle ages ago if they were just honest. Also, why be so dishonest when a quick look at Amazon shows the truth in seconds?

...and now it appears they've deleted that tweet, as it shows "page not found" for me. The idiocy is astounding. :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 04, 2017, 03:43:02 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 04, 2017, 01:48:41 am

I'm thinking my next video should be simply "The Top X Ways The Batteriser FAILED"

Yes it is as big a fail as expected yet still they carry on with website updates, the contest, new videos.

What is the end game? I thought they would come to their senses, do their indiegogo backers a favour by refunding instead of shipping and call it a day.

Do they seriously think they are going find a buyer for the company? Do they seriously think they will get big orders from the likes of Walmart? Will dribs and drabs sold from their web site sustain anything? Are they just trying to shift the rest whatever sized batch of product they had built? Are they trying to get some more money from their VC backers?

You would have be be insane to put these on the shelves for general consumption, half would come back with doesn't fit, doesn't work, broke, or burnt me.

To me why they are carrying on now is more of a puzzle than why they started 18 months ago.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on January 04, 2017, 03:53:51 am

Quote from: spider on January 03, 2017, 08:06:47 pm

The reason why Batteroo choose the Vivitar camera

https://twitter.com/GoBatteroo/status/816368105681289216

I wonder why it was deleted?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 04, 2017, 04:12:40 am

Quote from: ez24 on January 04, 2017, 03:53:51 am

I wonder why it was deleted?

Probably for exactly the same reason that none of the comments that have been posted on YouTube for the bogus Vivitar S126 video have been allowed to be made public!  :)

 :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JiggyNinja on January 04, 2017, 04:15:22 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 04, 2017, 01:48:41 am

I'm thinking my next video should be simply "The Top X Ways The Batteriser FAILED"
Or maybe "Batteriser - The Ultimate Product FAIL"
It's now clearly evident that there basically is no redeeming feature of the Batteriser, it's as bad or worse than we expected. So why not simply highlight the top 10(?) ways in which it fails?

Lack of robustness
Limited product fit
Limited increased performance (the failed train test)
Claimed increased battery life is actually the opposite (the MP3 and other tests)
No miracle performance with their customised IC, it's just a very ordinary boost converter.
Pretty awful ripple results.
Overheating (TBC)
Not to mention the multitude of ridiculous claims, their change of direction & backpedaling, the rigged GPS test, and maybe a similarly rigged camera test now.

And I haven't even thought about that list...

I suggest a plain: Batterizer, Complete Failure

It's exactly as grandiose an obituary as their scam deserves, which is to say completely unremarkable.

Quote from: Hensingler on January 04, 2017, 03:43:02 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 04, 2017, 01:48:41 am

I'm thinking my next video should be simply "The Top X Ways The Batteriser FAILED"

Yes it is as big a fail as expected yet still they carry on with website updates, the contest, new videos.

What is the end game? I thought they would come to their senses, do their indiegogo backers a favour by refunding instead of shipping and call it a day.

Do they seriously think they are going find a buyer for the company? Do they seriously think they will get big orders from the likes of Walmart? Will dribs and drabs sold from their web site sustain anything? Are they just trying to shift the rest whatever sized batch of product they had built? Are they trying to get some more money from their VC backers?

You would have be be insane to put these on the shelves for general consumption, half would come back with doesn't fit, doesn't work, broke, or burnt me.

To me why they are carrying on now is more of a puzzle than why they started 18 months ago.

There are only two possible endgames I can see, and neither of them are much of a puzzle.

1) Ride the money train as long as they can, whether from investors or further crowdfunding. Wring as much blood as they can out of this stone before moving on.
2) Pride. Humans can be incredibly resistant to admitting fault, some to a degree that you get the feeling it'd be easier for them to confess to a murder than admit a mistake.

I won't venture a guess about which of these it is, but it's definitely one of these two.

Has this reached the "biggest thread" mark yet? What's the other one?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 04, 2017, 04:30:46 am

Quote from: JiggyNinja on January 04, 2017, 04:15:22 am

Has this reached the "biggest thread" mark yet? What's the other one?

By number of posts, almost...  By views, not even close....

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/stats/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/stats/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 04, 2017, 04:44:34 am

Quote from: samgab on January 04, 2017, 03:03:50 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 04, 2017, 01:48:41 am

I'm thinking my next video should be simply "The Top X Ways The Batteriser FAILED"
Or maybe "Batteriser - The Ultimate Product FAIL"
It's now clearly evident that there basically is no redeeming feature of the Batteriser, it's as bad or worse than we expected. So why not simply highlight the top 10(?) ways in which it fails?

Lack of robustness
Limited product fit
Limited increased performance (the failed train test)
Claimed increased battery life is actually the opposite (the MP3 and other tests)
No miracle performance with their customised IC, it's just a very ordinary boost converter.
Pretty awful ripple results.
Overheating (TBC)
Not to mention the multitude of ridiculous claims, their change of direction & backpedaling, the rigged GPS test, and maybe a similarly rigged camera test now.

And I haven't even thought about that list...

Maybe before that conclusion vid, one more in the interim could be the in depth bench testing? Just a suggestion.

My plan has been two more videos. On for the technical measurements, and one final conclusion video.
But many people are saying not to bother with any more Batteriser videos, just don't give them the oxygen.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on January 04, 2017, 04:47:31 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 04, 2017, 04:44:34 am

Quote from: samgab on January 04, 2017, 03:03:50 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 04, 2017, 01:48:41 am

I'm thinking my next video should be simply "The Top X Ways The Batteriser FAILED"
Or maybe "Batteriser - The Ultimate Product FAIL"
It's now clearly evident that there basically is no redeeming feature of the Batteriser, it's as bad or worse than we expected. So why not simply highlight the top 10(?) ways in which it fails?

Lack of robustness
Limited product fit
Limited increased performance (the failed train test)
Claimed increased battery life is actually the opposite (the MP3 and other tests)
No miracle performance with their customised IC, it's just a very ordinary boost converter.
Pretty awful ripple results.
Overheating (TBC)
Not to mention the multitude of ridiculous claims, their change of direction & backpedaling, the rigged GPS test, and maybe a similarly rigged camera test now.

And I haven't even thought about that list...

Maybe before that conclusion vid, one more in the interim could be the in depth bench testing? Just a suggestion.

My plan has been two more videos. On for the technical measurements, and one final conclusion video.
But many people are saying not to bother with any more Batteriser videos, just don't give them the oxygen.

Yeah, I saw several comments of that nature on your last Batteroo Youtube video... But there are still a lot of people who don't have that opinion, and who do want to see the technical testing still, and the videos are still getting a lot of views and likes. Maybe it's just a vocal minority who feel that way? I dunno, your call, but personally, I would love to see at least a technical assessment video. But I'm just one opinion, and it's your time and channel...

Y

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 04, 2017, 04:51:19 am

Quote from: Hensingler on January 04, 2017, 03:43:02 am

Do they seriously think they are going find a buyer for the company?

Yes.

Quote

Do they seriously think they will get big orders from the likes of Walmart?

Yes.

Quote

Will dribs and drabs sold from their web site sustain anything?

No.

Quote

Are they just trying to shift the rest whatever sized batch of product they had built?

They had to ship something to show the backs and the investors that it's a success.

Quote

Are they trying to get some more money from their VC backers?

They already just got their 2nd VC investment.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on January 04, 2017, 05:04:50 am

VC and the world of management/business in general is very stupid to say the least...
If you guys are familiar with Simon's BOFH (I'm sure quite a lot are), the 'boss' and 'hod' in this case is the first VC and the second VC... so yeah, they have a serious case of bBS... blatantly blind stupidity
 :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Domagoj T on January 04, 2017, 08:01:53 am

Quote from: ez24 on January 03, 2017, 02:47:03 am

I do wish someone can duplicate the test but it will be expensive and hard.  I will contribute to the cause.   Maybe someone could start a Kickstarter on this.  I think there are enough people here to raise a couple hundred to do this (if there is a volunteer to build the pressers)

Why would you need a crowdfunding for the button pusher? I estimate the cost to be around $5, not including that one hour of work needed to assemble the thing. The servo can be had for under $2, Arduino Nano clone for $3, one 1/4 inch screw for the camera, a few woodscrews all around and some scrap plywood.

Heck, if I remember to stop by the hardware store to buy that 1/4 inch screw, I have all I need to make it.

If you design the jig with some foresight, you can make some slots for adjustments so you can put different cameras.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on January 04, 2017, 08:12:53 am

Quote from: Domagoj T on January 04, 2017, 08:01:53 am

Why would you need a crowdfunding for the button pusher?

Express shipping to Australia for two units.   

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Domagoj T on January 04, 2017, 08:17:12 am

I'm perfectly confident that Dave is capable of making the jig I described in fraction of the time and money it takes for express shipping.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on January 04, 2017, 08:21:32 am

Overheating confirmed....
(http://i.imgur.com/5HkgyEu.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 04, 2017, 08:27:08 am

Quote from: Blocco on January 04, 2017, 08:21:32 am

Overheating confirmed....
(http://i.imgur.com/5HkgyEu.png)

Wow. So that's two confirmed cases, and perhaps another one?
 :scared:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on January 04, 2017, 08:34:03 am

It's a shame that Mathias didn't declare the particular device that had sustained damage due to the use of the Batteriser sleeves, Perhaps Batteroo need to organise a customer care hotline or something.

Is 1800YOUGOTBURNT currently being used by anybody else ?.

 :phew: :o ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Barny on January 04, 2017, 08:35:12 am

I wonder, how long will it take till someone of the happy US & A users is suing them their butt-eriser of?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on January 04, 2017, 08:51:08 am

Quote from: rich on January 02, 2017, 06:38:28 pm

Finally definitive proof, direct from Batteroo.

Vivitar digital cameras 3 x AAA batteries.
Set up to take photos in forced flash mode. One pic every 10 seconds.
The claim is 172 pics without sleeve, 616 with.

edit to add: The flash does seem to stop working at 172 pics, but the camera looks like it is still taking pictures up to about 420.

They did a nice trick putting probes' siblings in the frame. Their PR team is running full throttle atm.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on January 04, 2017, 09:02:43 am

Quote from: Blocco on January 04, 2017, 08:21:32 am

Overheating confirmed....
(http://i.imgur.com/5HkgyEu.png)

I had always said they wouldn't fit in to at least 50% of devices....

It appears Batteroos answer to this, is that they'll contact the company that manufactures the non battepoo compliant device and ask them to change it... lol

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on January 04, 2017, 09:30:14 am

Quote from: Blocco on January 04, 2017, 08:21:32 am

Overheating confirmed....
(http://i.imgur.com/5HkgyEu.png)

So next step for Batteroo is to contact Mathias, and compensate for his losses to keep this out of the media.

If we want to now more about this, we have a couple of hours till California wakes up to comment to this on IGG, and hope he will share pictures and info about the device with us before that happens.

To the VC's it will be put under the umbrella of childhood diseases.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 04, 2017, 09:52:17 am

Quote from: PeterL on January 04, 2017, 09:30:14 am

Quote from: Blocco on January 04, 2017, 08:21:32 am

Overheating confirmed....
(http://i.imgur.com/5HkgyEu.png)

So next step for Batteroo is to contact Mathias, and compensate for his losses to keep this out of the media.

I think it would be naive to think this problem won't show up in many other situations - and I also think Batteroo could have great difficulty in applying the required amount of spin doctoring to save themselves.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on January 04, 2017, 10:06:29 am

I think I've found the ideal toy to test ...

(http://i.imgur.com/mY6DtwC.png)

Uses AAs and, assuming the pump still works when the batteroos set it on fire, could put itself out.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on January 04, 2017, 10:28:05 am

Quote from: daveake on January 04, 2017, 10:06:29 am

I think I've found the ideal toy to test ...
Uses AAs and, assuming the pump still works when the batteroos set it on fire, could put itself out.

:-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CJay on January 04, 2017, 10:55:44 am

Quote from: daveake on January 04, 2017, 10:06:29 am

I think I've found the ideal toy to test ...

(http://i.imgur.com/mY6DtwC.png)

Uses AAs and, assuming the pump still works when the batteroos set it on fire, could put itself out.

If they ever produce a D cell variant they could use one of these to pump out the PR department

http://www.force4.co.uk/force-4-battery-operated-pump.html#.WGzUbrk8l74 (http://www.force4.co.uk/force-4-battery-operated-pump.html#.WGzUbrk8l74)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on January 04, 2017, 10:59:22 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 04, 2017, 04:44:34 am

My plan has been two more videos. On for the technical measurements, and one final conclusion video.
But many people are saying not to bother with any more Batteriser videos, just don't give them the oxygen.

NO! you must do a conclusion otherwise it'll just look like defeat.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on January 04, 2017, 11:18:58 am

It could be a short between multiple sleeves, or perhaps the boost chip has failed short due to ESD, overcurrent, or similar and turned into a heater.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CJay on January 04, 2017, 11:23:29 am

Quote from: StuUK on January 04, 2017, 10:59:22 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 04, 2017, 04:44:34 am

My plan has been two more videos. On for the technical measurements, and one final conclusion video.
But many people are saying not to bother with any more Batteriser videos, just don't give them the oxygen.

NO! you must do a conclusion otherwise it'll just look like defeat.....

Agreed, pull together the results of the tests, present the results in a short, simple to understand video which either proves or disproves the manufacturer claims.

Try to keep the hearsay out (overheating cells, damaged batteroos etc.) unless there's proof of it (Dave's finger pinch and the pip being torn off for instance) .

It's a video that needs to be made and needs to be understandable by the sort of person Batteroo is targeting.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on January 04, 2017, 11:53:40 am

Quote from: Blocco on January 04, 2017, 08:21:32 am

Overheating confirmed....
(http://i.imgur.com/5HkgyEu.png)

In several countries the product manufacturer is responsible for damages caused by his products. Mathias should ask Batteroo for a replacement of his $200 gadget. So far there are two cases of overheating with brand new sleeves. I wonder how much that number will change when the sleeves get worn after using them several times. At the moment the numbers are too low to conclude any real safety issue.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on January 04, 2017, 12:00:13 pm

Quote from: Brumby on January 04, 2017, 09:52:17 am

Quote from: PeterL on January 04, 2017, 09:30:14 am

Quote from: Blocco on January 04, 2017, 08:21:32 am

Overheating confirmed....
(http://i.imgur.com/5HkgyEu.png)

So next step for Batteroo is to contact Mathias, and compensate for his losses to keep this out of the media.

I think it would be naive to think this problem won't show up in many other situations - and I also think Batteroo could have great difficulty in applying the required amount of spin doctoring to save themselves.

All they need is time. If they capitalize there idea before the shit really hits the fan, they are golden.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Pilleville on January 04, 2017, 02:37:39 pm

Seems like Batteroo got an award for their boost converter.

http://ww2.frost.com/news/press-releases/frost-sullivan-commends-batteroo-developing-solution-can-dramatically-increase-disposable-battery-optimization/ (http://ww2.frost.com/news/press-releases/frost-sullivan-commends-batteroo-developing-solution-can-dramatically-increase-disposable-battery-optimization/)

Batteroo's reusable energy-optimizing solution, Batteroo Boost, has the potential to be a game changer by accessing untapped energy in disposable batteries (AAA, AA, C, and D types) to extend their lives by a significant amount. In addition to this, it has also emerged as an environment-friendly solution by reducing the volume of toxic landfill caused by batteries.

I don't know if the award giving org. is legit or not, but it seems so from a fast googleing. Maybe they have capital invested in Batteroo? I mean, even a PR firm can't be this stupid, right? If you work as a market analyzer it most be embarrassing not to call out the 95% BS like the Batteroo sleve. Especially since it would only take 1min on Google to do so. (Deducted 5% because it's actually working in some sense. I have seen worse.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JiggyNinja on January 04, 2017, 02:45:36 pm

Quote from: madires on January 04, 2017, 11:53:40 am

In several countries the product manufacturer is responsible for damages caused by his products. Mathias should ask Batteroo for a replacement of his $200 gadget. So far there are two cases of overheating with brand new sleeves. I wonder how much that number will change when the sleeves get worn after using them several times. At the moment the numbers are too low to conclude any real safety issue.

The Note 7 got recalled after a few dozen reported incidents out of a million phones that shipped. There's been 2 reports of Batteroos doing the same thing, but they're also a lot smaller than Samsung right now.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Domagoj T on January 04, 2017, 02:45:52 pm

Frost and Sullivan is a pay to receive an award. Batteroo got theirs three years in a row.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on January 04, 2017, 02:53:03 pm

Quote from: Pilleville on January 04, 2017, 02:37:39 pm

Seems like Batteroo got an award for their boost converter.

http://ww2.frost.com/news/press-releases/frost-sullivan-commends-batteroo-developing-solution-can-dramatically-increase-disposable-battery-optimization/ (http://ww2.frost.com/news/press-releases/frost-sullivan-commends-batteroo-developing-solution-can-dramatically-increase-disposable-battery-optimization/)

Batteroo's reusable energy-optimizing solution, Batteroo Boost, has the potential to be a game changer by accessing untapped energy in disposable batteries (AAA, AA, C, and D types) to extend their lives by a significant amount. In addition to this, it has also emerged as an environment-friendly solution by reducing the volume of toxic landfill caused by batteries.

I don't know if the award giving org. is legit or not, but it seems so from a fast googleing. Maybe they have capital invested in Batteroo? I mean, even a PR firm can't be this stupid, right? If you work as a market analyzer it most be embarrassing not to call out the 95% BS like the Batteroo sleve. Especially since it would only take 1min on Google to do so. (Deducted 5% because it's actually working in some sense. I have seen worse.)

Stupidity has no limits :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JiggyNinja on January 04, 2017, 02:58:06 pm

Quote from: Pilleville on January 04, 2017, 02:37:39 pm

Seems like Batteroo got an award for their boost converter.

http://ww2.frost.com/news/press-releases/frost-sullivan-commends-batteroo-developing-solution-can-dramatically-increase-disposable-battery-optimization/ (http://ww2.frost.com/news/press-releases/frost-sullivan-commends-batteroo-developing-solution-can-dramatically-increase-disposable-battery-optimization/)

Batteroo's reusable energy-optimizing solution, Batteroo Boost, has the potential to be a game changer by accessing untapped energy in disposable batteries (AAA, AA, C, and D types) to extend their lives by a significant amount. In addition to this, it has also emerged as an environment-friendly solution by reducing the volume of toxic landfill caused by batteries.

I don't know if the award giving org. is legit or not, but it seems so from a fast googleing. Maybe they have capital invested in Batteroo? I mean, even a PR firm can't be this stupid, right? If you work as a market analyzer it most be embarrassing not to call out the 95% BS like the Batteroo sleve. Especially since it would only take 1min on Google to do so. (Deducted 5% because it's actually working in some sense. I have seen worse.)

The company I work for received a "2016 Enabling Technology Leadership" award that our management was quite proud of, so they are legit. Even if I'm not sure what technology leadership is or what we did to enable it, we do actual business with automotive OEMs and Tier 1 suppliers so it's probably just marketing and randomness that have the most influence on F&S's decision, and I highly doubt they're alone in that. A lot of evaluations like that don't even try to scratch the surface to see if there's any substance to the claims.

Quote from: Domagoj T on January 04, 2017, 02:45:52 pm

Frost and Sullivan is a pay to receive an award. Batteroo got theirs three years in a row.

That's an option too. Dave Gorman had a routine on those kinds of worthless consumer awards on his "Modern Life is Goodish" show.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Pilleville on January 04, 2017, 03:03:28 pm

Quote from: Domagoj T on January 04, 2017, 02:45:52 pm

Frost and Sullivan is a pay to receive an award. Batteroo got theirs three years in a row.

Oh OK that would also explain it ... well then F&S exists at least. I wasn't to sure.

Maybe it's a scheme to divert venture capital from Batteroo via F&S for private kick backs. It can't be worth it to spend money on pay-to-win awards, depending on cost of course.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on January 04, 2017, 03:22:28 pm

Here we go, a little bit about Frost & Sullivan from Wikipedia...

Quote

The company issues industry awards which have been criticized as having "critical problems" including arbitrary criteria, "dubious" and overlapping categories, and the company charging thousands of dollars for the use of its name by a company receiving the award.

Cynics may conclude that dishonesty is endemic within Batteroo.

https://ipvm.com/reports/should-you-trust-frost-&-sullivan-awards

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on January 04, 2017, 03:23:26 pm

Quote from: Pilleville on January 04, 2017, 02:37:39 pm

http://ww2.frost.com/news/press-releases/frost-sullivan-commends-batteroo-developing-solution-can-dramatically-increase-disposable-battery-optimization/ (http://ww2.frost.com/news/press-releases/frost-sullivan-commends-batteroo-developing-solution-can-dramatically-increase-disposable-battery-optimization/)I don't know if the award giving org. is legit or not, but it seems so from a fast googleing. Maybe they have capital invested in Batteroo? I mean, even a PR firm can't be this stupid, right? If you work as a market analyzer it most be embarrassing not to call out the 95% BS like the Batteroo sleve. Especially since it would only take 1min on Google to do so. (Deducted 5% because it's actually working in some sense. I have seen worse.)

Yep!

A prievious interview with batteroo Jul 2015
http://www.frost.com/sublib/display-market-insight.do?id=295404655 (http://www.frost.com/sublib/display-market-insight.do?id=295404655)


About Frost & Sullivan
Frost & Sullivan, the Growth Partnership Company, works in collaboration with clients to leverage visionary innovation that addresses the global challenges and related growth opportunities that will make or break today's market participants.
Our “Growth Partnership” supports clients by addressing these opportunities and incorporating two key elements driving visionary innovation: The Integrated Value Proposition and The Partnership Infrastructure.

Translation: We haven't got a clue what we do either.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on January 04, 2017, 03:39:17 pm

Quote from: JiggyNinja on January 04, 2017, 02:45:36 pm

The Note 7 got recalled after a few dozen reported incidents out of a million phones that shipped. There's been 2 reports of Batteroos doing the same thing, but they're also a lot smaller than Samsung right now.

Also Samsung has deep pockets that lawyers love and a reputation to protect.

Batteroo has neither of those...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on January 04, 2017, 03:45:45 pm

Quote from: StillTrying on January 04, 2017, 03:23:26 pm

Our “Growth Partnership” supports clients by addressing these opportunities and incorporating two key elements driving visionary innovation: The Integrated Value Proposition and The Partnership Infrastructure.

LOL! I've re-read that about five times and that has to be one of the biggest piles of nonsensical word-soup drivel I've read in quite some time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CJay on January 04, 2017, 04:23:06 pm

Quote from: Howardlong on January 04, 2017, 03:45:45 pm

Quote from: StillTrying on January 04, 2017, 03:23:26 pm

Our “Growth Partnership” supports clients by addressing these opportunities and incorporating two key elements driving visionary innovation: The Integrated Value Proposition and The Partnership Infrastructure.

LOL! I've re-read that about five times and that has to be one of the biggest piles of nonsensical word-soup drivel I've read in quite some time.

Nah, to boil it down, 'Give us money and we'll give you stuff to help you pimp your BS company'

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on January 04, 2017, 04:53:45 pm

Maybe their expurt marketing advice was to move all the videos off YT onto Vimto, and leave the comments disabled?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 04, 2017, 06:05:44 pm

Quote from: Blocco on January 04, 2017, 03:22:28 pm

Here we go, a little bit about Frost & Sullivan from Wikipedia...

Quote

The company issues industry awards which have been criticized as having "critical problems" including arbitrary criteria, "dubious" and overlapping categories, and the company charging thousands of dollars for the use of its name by a company receiving the award.

Cynics may conclude that dishonesty is endemic within Batteroo.

https://ipvm.com/reports/should-you-trust-frost-&-sullivan-awards

I don't understand why a company buys such an award, if everyone can read this on Wikipedia and other sites. And thousands of dollars is not cheap. But maybe they get a discount if they buy it for some years :P

Interestingly Frost & Sullivan uses similar weasel tricks as we've seen from Batteroo, e.g. "In a interview with Frost & Sullivan, I was told that award recipients did not pay for awards", but the vendors say: "awards are granted at no cost but the manufacturers cannot publicly announce awards without paying thousands of dollars to Frost & Sullivan".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 04, 2017, 06:39:20 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 04, 2017, 06:05:44 pm

I don't understand why a company buys such an award, if everyone can read this on Wikipedia and other sites.

Simple: Batteroo's target market is not fact-checkers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on January 04, 2017, 07:21:49 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 04, 2017, 06:39:20 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 04, 2017, 06:05:44 pm

I don't understand why a company buys such an award, if everyone can read this on Wikipedia and other sites.

Simple: Batteroo's target market is not fact-checkers.

Amazingly HP Enterprise, Agilent and Keysight have all bought at least one Frost and Sullivan award.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on January 04, 2017, 08:01:18 pm

New for 2017, I'm announcing my new "Samgab Awards"!! For a very reasonable fee starting from only $100,000 and up, your product or service can receive the prestigious Samgab Award, complete with inkjet printed award documentation created in Microsoft Publisher! Contact me for further details!

I think this new business is going to be a winner!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on January 04, 2017, 09:06:32 pm

 :bullshit:
2015 North American Alkaline Battery Price/Performance Value Leadership Award  :wtf:
http://ww2.frost.com/index.php/download_file/10969 (http://ww2.frost.com/index.php/download_file/10969)
 :bullshit:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 04, 2017, 09:10:17 pm

Quote from: StillTrying on January 04, 2017, 09:06:32 pm

:bullshit:
2015 North American Alkaline Battery Price/Performance Value Leadership Award
http://ww2.frost.com/index.php/download_file/10969 (http://ww2.frost.com/index.php/download_file/10969)
 :bullshit:

Quote

Customer Ownership Experience
Batteroo welcomes customer feedback about the Batteriser, either through its Web site or
via email or social media platforms (including Facebook and Twitter). Its crowd funding
campaign established an active dialogue between its team and the early adopters of the
product. When the product is commercialized, Batteroo plans to enhance its customer
relationship management tools.

 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on January 04, 2017, 09:16:26 pm

Quote from: StillTrying on January 04, 2017, 09:06:32 pm

:bullshit:
2015 North American Alkaline Battery Price/Performance Value Leadership Award
http://ww2.frost.com/index.php/download_file/10969 (http://ww2.frost.com/index.php/download_file/10969)
 :bullshit:

With these awards and successful videos, I am sure 99% of the population will think these are good.  I am also sure that 99% people here will think they are bad.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on January 04, 2017, 09:33:59 pm

Quote from: samgab on January 04, 2017, 08:01:18 pm

New for 2017, I'm announcing my new "Samgab Awards"!!

You'll need to have a lot more words in there to make it more prestigious, "Value", "Leadership", even just random stuff would do, how about "Alkaline Battery Price" as a filler.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Domagoj T on January 04, 2017, 09:59:10 pm

Quote from: StillTrying on January 04, 2017, 09:06:32 pm

Price/Performance

The higher the number the better, right? Right?
Right?

Hmmm, my calculator complains when I try to divide by 0. I guess it's at its limits of comprehending the value of the Batterizer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ruffy91 on January 04, 2017, 10:12:08 pm

Quote from: Domagoj T on January 04, 2017, 09:59:10 pm

Quote from: StillTrying on January 04, 2017, 09:06:32 pm

Price/Performance

The higher the number the better, right? Right?
Right?

Hmmm, my calculator complains when I try to divide by 0. I guess it's at its limits of comprehending the value of the Batterizer.

Batteroo lowers performance by 87.5% so the ratio price/performance is increased by 800%!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 04, 2017, 10:49:24 pm

Did any other (independent) person than Dave, EcProjects or me post a video of how the Batteroo sleeve performs, besides the few unboxing videos? Looks strange if they really shipped it to all 7393 backers. Even if only 1% are interested in testing and documenting it with a video, we should have dozens by now, and even more with the $500 contest they are running (page not found now for https://www.batteroo.com/contest (https://www.batteroo.com/contest) ).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on January 04, 2017, 11:57:36 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 04, 2017, 10:49:24 pm

even more with the $500 contest they are running[/s] (page not found now for https://www.batteroo.com/contest (https://www.batteroo.com/contest) ).

I think they took that page down because they won it with their camera video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 05, 2017, 01:24:29 am

They finally deleted the comment on indiegogo with the link to dave's video :), think it stod for over 3 days

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on January 05, 2017, 02:00:23 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 04, 2017, 10:49:24 pm

Did any other (independent) person than Dave, EcProjects or me post a video of how the Batteroo sleeve performs

I don't know of any more 'not known' videos. There this French test of course where he puts the 'AA' sleeves on 4 'used batteries' and gets over 100 flashes, not very scientific, but sounds reasonable.
http://www.geeknewz.fr/review-batteroo-faites-revivre-vos-piles-facon-zombie-27323 (http://www.geeknewz.fr/review-batteroo-faites-revivre-vos-piles-facon-zombie-27323)

Looks strange if they really shipped it to all 7393 backers. Even if only 1% are interested in testing and documenting it with a video, we should have dozens by now

I agree, in this active-participation type of thing I'd expect it to be well over 1%, even if you go just by the number of comments/twitters - it doesn't add up.

even more with the $500 contest they are running (page not found now

Yep, their contest page says :)/said: submit the URL link with your image, or video for a chance to win our $500 pre-paid gift cards. We pick a winner EVERY MONTH!

Perhaps there'll be a new contest next month.  :-\

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: romelec on January 05, 2017, 08:41:10 am

Quote from: StillTrying on January 05, 2017, 02:00:23 am

There this French test of course where he puts the 'AA' sleeves on 4 'used batteries' and gets over 100 flashes, not very scientific, but sounds reasonable.
http://www.geeknewz.fr/review-batteroo-faites-revivre-vos-piles-facon-zombie-27323 (http://www.geeknewz.fr/review-batteroo-faites-revivre-vos-piles-facon-zombie-27323)

He considered that the batteries were "used" just because the battery gauge was low...
He got 100 flashes but sometimes it didn't work and had to wait/restart the flash multiple times.

And who uses alkaline on a 500€ flash ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 05, 2017, 09:15:07 am

Quote from: romelec on January 05, 2017, 08:41:10 am

Quote from: StillTrying on January 05, 2017, 02:00:23 am

There this French test of course where he puts the 'AA' sleeves on 4 'used batteries' and gets over 100 flashes, not very scientific, but sounds reasonable.
http://www.geeknewz.fr/review-batteroo-faites-revivre-vos-piles-facon-zombie-27323 (http://www.geeknewz.fr/review-batteroo-faites-revivre-vos-piles-facon-zombie-27323)

He considered that the batteries were "used" just because the battery gauge was low...
He got 100 flashes but sometimes it didn't work and had to wait/restart the flash multiple times.

He didn't use the dead batteries, which recovered for some days, without the sleeve, which would have worked, too, even if the battery gauge was low. I guess sometimes it didn't work because the output voltage dropped suddenly if there were some current spikes, because of the dead batteries (we know that Batteroo doesn't regulate always to 1.5 V, but it depends on the input voltage as well). This page (http://kenrockwell.com/nikon/sb910.htm) says normal battery life with Alkaline is 110 shots for this flash, so overall this sounds like a good application for the Batteroo sleeve. But without the sleeve it would have probably lasted for the same time, based on the experience with the MP3 players. Of course, I wouldn't like it if it sometimes works and sometimes not. Best result in price per shot would be to use rechargeable batteries, which he has, too.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Pilleville on January 05, 2017, 10:17:55 am

Quote from: romelec on January 05, 2017, 08:41:10 am

Quote from: StillTrying on January 05, 2017, 02:00:23 am

There this French test of course where he puts the 'AA' sleeves on 4 'used batteries' and gets over 100 flashes, not very scientific, but sounds reasonable.
http://www.geeknewz.fr/review-batteroo-faites-revivre-vos-piles-facon-zombie-27323 (http://www.geeknewz.fr/review-batteroo-faites-revivre-vos-piles-facon-zombie-27323)

He considered that the batteries were "used" just because the battery gauge was low...
He got 100 flashes but sometimes it didn't work and had to wait/restart the flash multiple times.

And who uses alkaline on a 500€ flash ?

That's the problem. The Batteroo has a great placebo potential. The costumer notices that the gauge is low, puts on the sleeve, it's full again and the thing works abit more. Or, if the sleeve is on from the beginning, that the "charge is full" really long compared to as usual before dropping really fast. Most ordinary costumers don't know that the battery gauge doesn't measure capacity left but potential, apart from some fancy equipment that measures current and are using a fixed rechargeable battery.

Quote from: Fungus on January 04, 2017, 06:39:20 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 04, 2017, 06:05:44 pm

I don't understand why a company buys such an award, if everyone can read this on Wikipedia and other sites.

Simple: Batteroo's target market is not fact-checkers.

Why fact check cheap consumer products in the couple off dollars range? I just buy and test. People might believe for example that the Batteroo is a battery conditioner/cell balancer or something. I mean I'm mostly interested about this drama becouse I'm a tech enthusiast.

Quote from: StillTrying on January 05, 2017, 02:00:23 am

Looks strange if they really shipped it to all 7393 backers. Even if only 1% are interested in testing and documenting it with a video, we should have dozens by now

I agree, in this active-participation type of thing I'd expect it to be well over 1%, even if you go just by the number of comments/twitters - it doesn't add up.

I think you overestimate the share of people that would post a review of this on youtube/blog/w/e by one or two orders of magnitude. But I've got no facts to back that up  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on January 05, 2017, 12:30:28 pm

8 of the AA sleeves arrived with me today, in fact they were delivered last week but i had to pick them up from the post office

open to suggestions as to what to do with them

more testing? blow them up? give some away?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on January 05, 2017, 12:33:15 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on January 05, 2017, 12:30:28 pm

8 of the AA sleeves arrived with me today, in fact they were delivered last week but i had to pick them up from the post office

open to suggestions as to what to do with them

more testing? blow them up? give some away?

it would appear they can blow themselves up.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 05, 2017, 12:35:00 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on January 05, 2017, 12:30:28 pm

8 of the AA sleeves arrived with me today, in fact they were delivered last week but i had to pick them up from the post office

open to suggestions as to what to do with them

more testing? blow them up? give some away?

More hits for 'Batteriser' on google is good. Put them in something, time how long it lasts with/without. Post the results somewhere. Make video if possible.


(Or send a couple to me, I''ll do it..)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on January 05, 2017, 12:41:46 pm

Put 8 of them with an AA cell in series and see if it can start a car as the battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on January 05, 2017, 12:44:20 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on January 05, 2017, 12:30:28 pm

8 of the AA sleeves arrived with me today, in fact they were delivered last week but i had to pick them up from the post office

open to suggestions as to what to do with them

more testing? blow them up? give some away?

I would like to see the monkey test

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 05, 2017, 12:54:11 pm

Quote from: Pilleville on January 05, 2017, 10:17:55 am

I think you overestimate the share of people that would post a review of this on youtube/blog/w/e by one or two orders of magnitude. But I've got no facts to back that up  :-//

I would have thought the selection of people finding and backing stuff on indiegogo would have way above average levels of social and new media involvement. That said a proportion may well want to keep quiet when they realise they paid money for a piece of crap.

As an aside I commended the syyenergy7 guy on youtube for discovering eneloops but now see he uses a Bedini Renaissance charger with them. $300 for a piece of crap battery charger from a free energy loon. He also uses 'zappers' strapped to his ankles to kill parasites in his bloodstream like:

Quote

According to Hulda Clark:
“Parasites can be killed with a very small voltage. But only IF the voltage is 100% Positive Offset, and only IF the voltage is varied up and down repeatedly”.
“If the varying voltage become NEGATIVE, even momentarily, it supports and maintains their lives!” ,,,, “If the voltage is applied in pulses, to produce a "Square wave, it will affect many parasites at once so that the rate raising and lowering it, called frequency, is not critical. Even though these tiny animals undoubtedly have a "mortal frequency", (NOTE: ADDITIONALLY USING THE MORTAL FREQUENCY SHOULD GIVE EVEN MORE SUCCESS) this rate does not need to be known or used when a square wave of electricity, totally positive, is used.” ,,,, “A positive electrical force that pulses up and down not only appears to kill tiny invaders, it also seems to energize white blood cells to go on an all-out attack on your enemies: your parasites, your toxins everything in spite of their four blockers. In spite of benzene PCBs, metals and asbestos! For a time your white blood cells turn into Super-WBCs. That is why I recommend eight hours of zapping daily until you are well.”

The guy is completely bat shit crazy - par for the course for Batteriseroo supporters I guess.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: razvanme on January 05, 2017, 12:59:22 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on January 05, 2017, 12:30:28 pm

8 of the AA sleeves arrived with me today, in fact they were delivered last week but i had to pick them up from the post office

open to suggestions as to what to do with them

more testing? blow them up? give some away?

I still think the batteroos have a meltdown when placed in series and a relatively high current is needed. Everyone is expecting a meltdown video. So two or three of them in series in a flashlight or any other product that requires a high current from time to time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 05, 2017, 01:08:50 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on January 05, 2017, 12:30:28 pm

more testing? blow them up? give some away?

We have only seen performance plots on AAAs up to 120mA so far. AA performance at higher current and finding the maximum current would be interesting. Maybe just a quick look as Dave will be getting AAs and no point overlapping what he wants to do.

Don't think we have seen decent photos of the AA PCB yet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: romelec on January 05, 2017, 01:29:53 pm

As the French guy did, a test with a camera flash is a good idea because there should be large current bursts.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 05, 2017, 01:41:40 pm

Quote from: razvanme on January 05, 2017, 12:59:22 pm

I still think the batteroos have a meltdown when placed in series and a relatively high current is needed. Everyone is expecting a meltdown video. So two or three of them in series in a flashlight or any other product that requires a high current from time to time.

It wouldn't be hard to do it in a controlled way. Use a dummy load (or get a MOSFET and a potentiometer) and see what happens.

No testing has been done for temperature yet. How hot do they get under load?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on January 05, 2017, 02:10:23 pm

i can certainly look at some of the higher current questions / destructive testing

i have two Keysight 6632 bench PSUs here so i can source and sink circa 4-5 amps at the same time, or is it preferable to use real-world products to test in?

i have dichloromethane here so can look at depotting the circuit off the sleeve, though the PCB is paper thin so i doubt there would be much left of it before the potting compound softens. It seems to be quite hard, its certainly not soft silicone.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: cowana on January 05, 2017, 02:12:47 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on January 05, 2017, 01:08:50 pm

Don't think we have seen decent photos of the AA PCB yet.

True - a lot of the testing so far has been on AAAs, and assuming performance on AAs (more common) will be similar.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: crimsonknight3 on January 05, 2017, 02:14:38 pm

I think this is going along the same lines as the batteriser, so I decided to post here hoping some of the more techy people are following the thread rather than just people enjoying the drama.

I assume the batteriser is essentially a joule thief?

I've been wondering, if a joule thief is installed with 20 led's in series from a new set of batteries, will the led's last just as long, longer or shorter... My assumption is just as long or shorter due to more energy being wasted by the current limiting resistor for the led's, am I close?

Thanks :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on January 05, 2017, 02:19:22 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on January 05, 2017, 12:30:28 pm

blow them up?

YES... DO IT!!!  >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on January 05, 2017, 02:26:56 pm

Quote from: crimsonknight3 on January 05, 2017, 02:14:38 pm

I think this is going along the same lines as the batteriser, so I decided to post here hoping some of the more techy people are following the thread rather than just people enjoying the drama.

I assume the batteriser is essentially a joule thief?

I've been wondering, if a joule thief is installed with 20 led's in series from a new set of batteries, will the led's last just as long, longer or shorter... My assumption is just as long or shorter due to more energy being wasted by the current limiting resistor for the led's, am I close?

Thanks :)

Its a glorified boost converter...Thats all it is...  :bullshit: To quote Dave:

Quote

No on the forum denies that Batteriser will work, it will work as a boost converter, but not going to do what the Batterbros are saying it will...

It will work slightly longer, but the Batteriser renders gauges useless so from my understanding it would basically work til it died immediately. And from my limited EE experience, Correct me if I'm wrong,  I think it will be affected by the resistor, but the Batteriser might counter for that. So it might be a little bit shorter, but not much.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 05, 2017, 02:28:46 pm

Hum I wonder how much the Baterooser will impact the battery life of a really efficient WonderSwan (a Japanese handheld game console) that run on a single AA battery, and can run for dozen of hour (about 30 hours on the original model, ~15 hours on the latest with a colour screen)

Sadly I don't have any Batterooser :( ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 05, 2017, 02:55:45 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on January 05, 2017, 02:10:23 pm

i can certainly look at some of the higher current questions / destructive testing

i have two Keysight 6632 bench PSUs here so i can source and sink circa 4-5 amps at the same time, or is it preferable to use real-world products to test in?

i have dichloromethane here so can look at depotting the circuit off the sleeve, though the PCB is paper thin so i doubt there would be much left of it before the potting compound softens. It seems to be quite hard, its certainly not soft silicone.

If you have the equipment then get some curves on performance, e.g. what % efficiency at given input voltage and output current etc.
This would really be the last nail in the coffin if it can be shown that unless you use a VERY specific load/device then the batteriser will be hopeless and give less runtime as all tests are showing so far.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 05, 2017, 03:21:11 pm

Quote from: crimsonknight3 on January 05, 2017, 02:14:38 pm

I assume the batteriser is essentially a joule thief?

Yes and no. There's important differences.

A joule thief produces a stream of voltage spikes from an inductor. Spikes are enough to make LEDs flash briefly (and visibly) but in no way is it useful as a power supply.

A power supply (eg batteriser) has to regulate those spikes down to a fixed voltage and provide a sustained current.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Pilleville on January 05, 2017, 05:21:02 pm

Quote from: cowana on January 05, 2017, 02:12:47 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on January 05, 2017, 01:08:50 pm

Don't think we have seen decent photos of the AA PCB yet.

True - a lot of the testing so far has been on AAAs, and assuming performance on AAs (more common) will be similar.

The performance on AAs should be abit worse, since the sleeve has to operate over a wider current range, right? The boost converter can't be optimized for more then one point if it's static. If high current AAA setups gives heating problems, then AAs would require another chip totally and maybe another sleeve design to heat sink more.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JiggyNinja on January 05, 2017, 05:56:47 pm

Quote from: Pilleville on January 05, 2017, 05:21:02 pm

Quote from: cowana on January 05, 2017, 02:12:47 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on January 05, 2017, 01:08:50 pm

Don't think we have seen decent photos of the AA PCB yet.

True - a lot of the testing so far has been on AAAs, and assuming performance on AAs (more common) will be similar.

The performance on AAs should be abit worse, since the sleeve has to operate over a wider current range, right? The boost converter can't be optimized for more then one point if it's static. If high current AAA setups gives heating problems, then AAs would require another chip totally and maybe another sleeve design to heat sink more.

It's probably not the physical limits of the chip that are causing the reported heat issues. They're too extreme. I believe the leading candidate is the sleeve shorting out the battery, either through a physical connection bridging of the + and - terminals or the converter chip latching up.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on January 05, 2017, 06:00:03 pm

Quote from: Pilleville on January 05, 2017, 05:21:02 pm

Quote from: cowana on January 05, 2017, 02:12:47 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on January 05, 2017, 01:08:50 pm

Don't think we have seen decent photos of the AA PCB yet.

True - a lot of the testing so far has been on AAAs, and assuming performance on AAs (more common) will be similar.

The performance on AAs should be abit worse, since the sleeve has to operate over a wider current range, right? The boost converter can't be optimized for more then one point if it's static. If high current AAA setups gives heating problems, then AAs would require another chip totally and maybe another sleeve design to heat sink more.

It could also be better, since there is more space for capacitors and it could have a better inductor.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on January 05, 2017, 06:01:27 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on January 05, 2017, 12:30:28 pm

8 of the AA sleeves arrived with me today, in fact they were delivered last week but i had to pick them up from the post office

open to suggestions as to what to do with them

more testing? blow them up? give some away?

How about just check the fit in what you have and report the results (the fit)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on January 05, 2017, 06:35:29 pm

OT: This is post number 8087.
Now equal longest thread with https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 05, 2017, 07:16:20 pm

The article in French is.. This guy does not understand the thing at all::

Quote

Avec un appareil en charge active : Partant d’un constat qu’une pile délivre 1.2v en pleine charge, elle s’use parce qu’elle ne tiens plus son courant d’1.2v malgré qu’il reste encore un peu de charge. Vos appareils (télécommande, caméra vidéo etc) eux ont besoin d’un courant maximal : Par exemple 4.8v si vous utilisez 4 piles. Si l’une d’entre elle est morte et ne délivre plus que 0,5v par exemple, votre appareil, en temps normal, ne fonctionnera pas.

Translation:

Quote

With an active device: From the constat that a battery give 1.2V when full, it wear because it does not hold it's current of 1.2V even if there are still some charge left. Your devices (remote, camera, ...) need a maximum current: For exemple 4.8V if you use 4 batteries. If one of them is dead and only deliver 0.5, for example, your device will no longuer work

Mixing current and voltage, I don't understand what the "need a maximum current" mean in this context, It would be meaningful with a "minimum current", but maximum?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 05, 2017, 08:03:28 pm

Quote

Revive Batteries shared Batteroo's post.
19 hrs ·

Frost & Sullivan appear to be quite a respected organisation that have been around for more than 50 years worldwide. Some of their Australian Awards went to companies such as Telstra, Philips, Microsoft, Samsung, Verizon etc.

Frost & Sullivan seem to have our Darwin man fooled. How does he think Telstra, Philips, Microsoft etc could stop Frost & Sullivan giving them awards? Maybe he should ask Frost & Sullivan if they can make up an award to sell him as well. I'm sure they could photoshop him into one of their presentations for a small fee.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on January 05, 2017, 08:28:25 pm

Here's some interesting reading if you want to peek behind the Frost & Sullivan curtain (read the comments at the end of the blog post...several are from ex-F&S "analysts")

https://billanddave.wordpress.com/2007/06/03/frost-sullivan-award/

Example:

Quote

F&S is one big joke. I should know, I used to work there, and wrote many of these awards myself. Yes, the awards are usually selected by a careful analysis… meaning they are given to the company whom they feel will be gullible enough to license the award and purchase the paperweight.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on January 05, 2017, 08:30:31 pm

Here's another snippet from the comments, which seems very relevant to the whole "refuting BS" rant Dave did today:

Quote

As someone said, you can never defeat an ignorant man in a conversation.

Possibly based on this quote from Mark Twain:

Quote

Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on January 05, 2017, 08:31:48 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on January 05, 2017, 08:03:28 pm

Quote

Revive Batteries shared Batteroo's post.
19 hrs ·

Frost & Sullivan appear to be quite a respected organisation that have been around for more than 50 years worldwide. Some of their Australian Awards went to companies such as Telstra, Philips, Microsoft, Samsung, Verizon etc.

Frost & Sullivan seem to have our Darwin man fooled. How does he think Telstra, Philips, Microsoft etc could stop Frost & Sullivan giving them awards? Maybe he should ask Frost & Sullivan if they can make up an award to sell him as well. I'm sure they could photoshop him into one of their presentations for a small fee.

Wow!
 50 years... that means those X-ray glasses sold on the back cover of 1950s comic books were real too
I should have bought them back then, they'd be worth a fortune now.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on January 06, 2017, 12:10:46 am

Quote from: Godzil on January 05, 2017, 07:16:20 pm

The article in French is.. This guy does not understand the thing at all::

Quote

Avec un appareil en charge active : Partant d’un constat qu’une pile délivre 1.2v en pleine charge, elle s’use parce qu’elle ne tiens plus son courant d’1.2v malgré qu’il reste encore un peu de charge. Vos appareils (télécommande, caméra vidéo etc) eux ont besoin d’un courant maximal : Par exemple 4.8v si vous utilisez 4 piles. Si l’une d’entre elle est morte et ne délivre plus que 0,5v par exemple, votre appareil, en temps normal, ne fonctionnera pas.

Translation:

Quote

With an active device: From the constat that a battery give 1.2V when full, it wear because it does not hold it's current of 1.2V even if there are still some charge left. Your devices (remote, camera, ...) need a maximum current: For exemple 4.8V if you use 4 batteries. If one of them is dead and only deliver 0.5, for example, your device will no longuer work

Mixing current and voltage, I don't understand what the "need a maximum current" mean in this context, It would be meaningful with a "minimum current", but maximum?

If you're relying on that translation I don't think you can draw any conclusions on the writer's understanding.

My French is pretty ropey after more than thirty years away from the subject, but even taking that into account I can clearly see that the translation falls far short of satisfactory. 

For instance, constat (which wasn't translated) means observation and the sentence fragment "Partant d’un constat qu’une pile délivre 1.2v en pleine charge," translates as "Starting from the observation that a fully charged battery delivers 1.2V," which is a long way from the translation given.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 06, 2017, 12:21:04 am

Quote from: Cerebus on January 06, 2017, 12:10:46 am

If you're relying on that translation I don't think you can draw any conclusions on the writer's understanding.

My French is pretty ropey after more than thirty years away from the subject, but even taking that into account I can clearly see that the translation falls far short of satisfactory. 

For instance, constat (which wasn't translated) means observation and the sentence fragment "Partant d’un constat qu’une pile délivre 1.2v en pleine charge," translates as "Starting from the observation that a fully charged battery delivers 1.2V," which is a long way from the translation given.

My French is practically non-existent - but my experience with Google translate can only reinforce what Cerebus has said.  Those translations often need a very broad "interpretive" approach that benefits from understanding the content and making the phrases fit into a construct that makes sense.

Your:

Quote

I don't understand what the "need a maximum current" mean in this context,

is an example where this would, I believe, be necessary.  Either that, or learn the original language.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Don Hills on January 06, 2017, 12:26:11 am

Quote from: JiggyNinja on January 05, 2017, 05:56:47 pm

...
It's probably not the physical limits of the chip that are causing the reported heat issues. They're too extreme. I believe the leading candidate is the sleeve shorting out the battery, either through a physical connection bridging of the + and - terminals or the converter chip latching up.

Metal case flashlights are often conductive on the inside surface. It could also be Batteroo sleeves shorting out against one another in the style of holder that has the cells side by side. That could be another test - see how durable the coating on the sleeves is.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on January 06, 2017, 12:30:23 am

It's not google that made the mistake. The French writer says that the battery can't hold a current of 1.2V. He should use the word 'tension' instead of 'courant'.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 06, 2017, 12:44:43 am

Lets see how long this comment will stay up before it is deleted.

Quote

Indie Black
Do you have any comment on why the product performed so poorly in this test?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl90m2KHbNk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl90m2KHbNk)

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29047266/Sk%C3%A6rmbillede%20p%C3%A5%202017-01-06%2001-33-17.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 06, 2017, 01:03:44 am

Quote from: wilfred on January 06, 2017, 12:32:41 am

The other issue with camera flashguns is outdoor cold temperature use. Cold batteries perform poorly so if a batteriser could overcome that it would help.

Well, some of the deleted Indiegogo comments suggest that Batteroo can help heating it up a bit :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on January 06, 2017, 01:50:51 am

My AA's just arrived. The packaging is "batteroo" including the plastic case, but the sleeves themselves are "batteriser". I did NOT get the letter about active/passive loads. I've included a full scan of the paper sleeve for those who want to investigate their advertising claims. There are no CE markings or anything like that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on January 06, 2017, 01:56:14 am

I'm not so sure they know what "Guarantee:" means. :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on January 06, 2017, 01:59:47 am

Quote from: jancumps on January 06, 2017, 12:30:23 am

It's not google that made the mistake. The French writer says that the battery can't hold a current of 1.2V. He should use the word 'tension' instead of 'courant'.

That word has exactly the same usages as the English 'current'. Do you know enough French syntax and semantics to be sure which usage is 'current' as measured in amps and 'current' as in 'at the/this moment'? Plus, which of us hasn't occasionally said 'current' when they meant voltage or power. The structure of the sentence in question is sufficiently complex that I wasn't going to dare at a proper translation - there are at least two words that rely on you working out if they are used as verbs, nouns or adjectives and also working out their gender before you can say what they mean.

I really do hate French, even though it's the language I know best after English. I did something like 6 years of French at school and hated every minute. It was such a painful experience that I just assumed I was useless at anything other than English; then I spent a week in Germany, almost automatically learned everyday please/thankyou/"I'll have have the Hunter's Chicken with noodles and also a beer please" type German with no effort. It wasn't me that was broken, it was bloody French!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on January 06, 2017, 02:00:10 am

Quote from: kalleboo on January 06, 2017, 01:50:51 am

My AA's just arrived.

See if they fit into anything

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on January 06, 2017, 02:06:11 am

 TSA travel friendly? But what about the FAA, if they start melting people's devices. And given the way one 'bit' Dave, are they really TSA friendly?  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AlxDroidDev on January 06, 2017, 02:16:23 am

Quote from: wilfred on January 06, 2017, 12:32:41 am

Before the results started to roll in I thought about a camera flashgun as an intermittent high current use of batteries. But then I started thinking it is hopeless if you resort to finding very specific uses in order to justify these devices. If your demand for batteries in camera flashguns was enough to justify fart-arsing around with batterisers then you would almost certainly be able to justify rechargable cells anyway. And that is assuming batterisers were going to be useful at all.

The chief benefit of a fresh battery in a flashgun is rapid recharge time and a rechargable cell has the edge over alkalines. The other issue with camera flashguns is outdoor cold temperature use. Cold batteries perform poorly so if a batteriser could overcome that it would help. But they won't because they would demand even more from the cold cell. So it seems hopeless.

About 95% of the photographers I know - me included - use rechargeable batteries in their speedlights, usually Nikon or Canon, but also and YongNuo, Godox or anything between (nobody uses Vivitar!). The prefered brand is, by far, Eneloop, specially the black ones. I am one of those use use Eneloops black, and the only non-rechargeable battery that lets the flash be ready as quickly is the Energizer Ultimate Lithium (http://www.energizer.com/batteries/energizer-ultimate-lithium-batteries). Everything else is crap compared to these two. Regardless of that, and I've written this before, I am willing to bet money that a Batterlooser will never fit a Nikon, Canon or YongNuo speedlight (at least none of the current models), because AA batteries are already a snug fit.

People who shoot in studios usually use continuous lights, so batteries are an irrelevant subject (except for the remote controllers, like Pocket Wizards and such), or expensive lights such as Profoto, that will have its own external battery pack.

Quote from: ez24 on January 06, 2017, 02:00:10 am

Quote from: kalleboo on January 06, 2017, 01:50:51 am

My AA's just arrived.

See if they fit into anything

That might take a while!

Quote from: rrinker on January 06, 2017, 02:06:11 am

TSA travel friendly? But what about the FAA, if they start melting people's devices. And given the way one 'bit' Dave, are they really TSA friendly?  :-DD

In the big picture, Batterloosers are irrelevant and it might be ages before FAA or IATA even hears about them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on January 06, 2017, 02:19:22 am

Re: the RF qualms some people have had, the only FM radio I have only takes AAAs so I can't test it inside there, but holding a single Batteroo under 500 mA load on an eneloop (I don't have any alkalines that are discharged yet) up to the FM radio does not have any effect on reception. No audio distortion on an old portable CD player either.

Quote from: Hensingler on January 05, 2017, 01:08:50 pm

finding the maximum current would be interesting

All I have for load testing handy right now is one of those USB dummy load (basically two massive resistors in series), and wiring that up to an AA yields a current of 500 mA. Adding the Batteroo it drops maybe 50 mA or so. Tried with both eneloops and dollar store alkalines.

Edit: with a dead short, I get 10A out of an Eneloop, and around 3-5 A with the Batteroo on. I thought it wasn't working before, but the sleeve just makes such poor contact with the battery when not under pressure... After 15 seconds of that it starts to smell like the magic smoke is trying to escape... After 30 seconds the sleeve is too hot to touch, but it's still keeping 3 A

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on January 06, 2017, 02:42:38 am

Quote from: ez24 on January 06, 2017, 02:00:10 am

See if they fit into anything

Fits: Portable CD player, Electric Toothbrush.
Doesn't fit: Quadcopter remote, LED christmas lights.

Struggling to find anything else I have that takes AAs...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 06, 2017, 02:52:36 am

Quote from: kalleboo on January 06, 2017, 01:50:51 am

My AA's just arrived. The packaging is "batteroo" including the plastic case, but the sleeves themselves are "batteriser". I did NOT get the letter about active/passive loads. I've included a full scan of the paper sleeve for those who want to investigate their advertising claims. There are no CE markings or anything like that.

Don't know if this is just an outdated database entry, but searching for the UPC barcode on the Batteroo sleeve package results in this entry:

http://www.upcitemdb.com/upc/853577006001 (http://www.upcitemdb.com/upc/853577006001) : "Slim Edge 300 Thread Count Bamboo Sheet Set"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 06, 2017, 03:13:24 am

Quote from: kalleboo on January 06, 2017, 01:50:51 am

My AA's just arrived. The packaging is "batteroo" including the plastic case, but the sleeves themselves are "batteriser". I did NOT get the letter about active/passive loads. I've included a full scan of the paper sleeve for those who want to investigate their advertising claims.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=283300;image)
 

Forget everything else they have said, right there on the consumer packaging hanging on the checkout shelf is the claim "Extend the life of new and most used Alkaline batteries". And "Instantly Extend Battery Life"
Right there they would not survive a challenge from the Australian ACCC, the claim is is misleading because the vast majority of overage products if used on a new battery can be demonstrably shown to reduce the life, not extend it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on January 06, 2017, 03:18:19 am

I just noticed some of mine are missing bits of coating on some of the edges. I'm not sure if they came like this, or it is a result of my trying to jam these things into equipment.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 06, 2017, 03:21:19 am

Quote from: kalleboo on January 06, 2017, 02:19:22 am

Edit: with a dead short, I get 10A out of an Eneloop, and around 3-5 A with the Batteroo on. I thought it wasn't working before, but the sleeve just makes such poor contact with the battery when not under pressure... After 15 seconds of that it starts to smell like the magic smoke is trying to escape... After 30 seconds the sleeve is too hot to touch, but it's still keeping 3 A

And right here Batteroo are just begging for lawsuit.
To try and fill the world with a flimsy sleeve that relies upon the insulating coating to prevent shorts not only between the battery, but between the sleeve and the metal battery compartment wall of of products, no to mention the variability in the contacts and how will use and abuse these things. Multiple that by the 10's of millions of these things they envisage selling, it's also commercial suicide to market such a product.
And we have evidently seen some of the that already with now 2 reported cases of overheating, one that "melted" a product!  :o

Perhaps this is the only thing the community should be focused on investigating?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 06, 2017, 03:23:26 am

Quote from: kalleboo on January 06, 2017, 03:18:19 am

I just noticed some of mine are missing bits of coating on some of the edges. I'm not sure if they came like this, or it is a result of my trying to jam these things into equipment.

It's practically guaranteed that this coating will scrap off when people try to insert these into tight metal battery holders.
The result can easily be a dead short on the output of one of the batteries in series.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Don Hills on January 06, 2017, 03:28:21 am

Quote from: kalleboo on January 06, 2017, 01:50:51 am

... The packaging is "batteroo" including the plastic case, but the sleeves themselves are "batteriser". ...

The title on the cardboard packaging is "Batteroo", but the picture on the packaging is "Batteriser". Has anyone actually received sleeves with "Batteroo" stamped on them?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 06, 2017, 03:48:31 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 06, 2017, 03:21:19 am

And right here Batteroo are just begging for lawsuit.

kalleboo is using eneloops. I speculated the low internal resistance might be why they don't recommend use with rechargeables.

Quote from: EEVblog on January 06, 2017, 03:21:19 am

And we have evidently seen some of the that already with now 2 reported cases of overheating

There have been 3. The woman? with LED candles, the guy who burnt his fingers on the prongs, and the $200 equipment melter.

Someone else unimpressed on indiegogo

Quote

matt
2 hours ago

Got mine. Tried to install in 2 devices. One broke as I tried to get it to fit. The other device didn’t fit either. I get the risk in crowd funding and I am fine with it. I can’t see this being successful based on my experience.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on January 06, 2017, 03:54:30 am

Quote from: Hensingler on January 06, 2017, 03:48:31 am

kalleboo is using eneloops. I speculated the low internal resistance might be why they don't recommend use with rechargeables.

I've given it a go with alkalines as well, same current output with the Batteroo on. The top of the sleeve still gets too hot to touch, but it seems to put out less heat than with the eneloops. This could be because the alkalines are still fresh (1.6 V) so it doesn't have to actually do any boost converting.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on January 06, 2017, 04:01:02 am

The instructions are backwards; step 2 should be before step 1. However, I'd like to see at least one of them eventually sacrificed to determine what happens if one is put onto a battery the wrong way around.

That packaging is weird - the picture and diagrams all show "Batteriser", but it's "Batteroo" in the text.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on January 06, 2017, 04:05:07 am

Quote from: amyk on January 06, 2017, 04:01:02 am

The instructions are backwards; step 2 should be before step 1. However, I'd like to see at least one of them eventually sacrificed to determine what happens if one is put onto a battery the wrong way around.

The negative terminal of the battery can't reach the positive terminal of the sleeve due to the PCB components/potting compound

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=283319;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 06, 2017, 04:11:34 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 06, 2017, 03:21:19 am

Perhaps this is the only thing the community should be focused on investigating?

Should have commented in my previous post. I disagree.  That would let them get away with claiming a poor implementation of something that works instead of showing they designed and crowd funded something that never was going to work.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on January 06, 2017, 04:16:58 am

While they don't pose the same hazard as the sharp edges, the stencilled letters are conductive...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 06, 2017, 04:19:45 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 06, 2017, 02:52:36 am

Don't know if this is just an outdated database entry, but searching for the UPC barcode on the Batteroo sleeve package results in this entry:

The company part of the number is registered to Batteroo Inc. Might be the sheet sets were using a made up number.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on January 06, 2017, 04:27:12 am

Quote from: kalleboo

The top of the sleeve still gets too hot to touch, but it seems to put out less heat than with the eneloops. This could be because the alkalines are still fresh (1.6 V) so it doesn't have to actually do any boost converting.

Actually, not strictly correct. Even if the converter is off?, it still has to pass the full current, and it is still switching. And it still suffers the losses.
The only saving grace is the switching current difference = higher at lower VBatt

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on January 06, 2017, 04:30:06 am

Quote from: EEVblog

  It's practically guaranteed that ...

It's practically guaranteed that if you wife catches you here, while supposed to be on family holidays, you'll return will less parts !! :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on January 06, 2017, 05:08:02 am

I think it'd be fun if someone came up with a plausible real world situation where the Batteriser melts a product or starts a fire (and gets it on camera).

Narrowing down likely cases could be done with a bit of thinking.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on January 06, 2017, 05:20:59 am

Time for some *highly* scientific testing...  ;D

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=283328;image)

It's really hard to test these things until the battery holders I ordered arrive, since the positive terminal of the battery doesn't make contact with the sleeve unless there's compression on the battery, so probing stuff turns into an acrobatic feat.

I also don't have a very good temp probe, but I reached 100 C on the positive terminal of the sleeve after 3 minutes, and after 5 minutes the whole battery was too hot to hold in your hand. Don't think it got hot enough to melt anything.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GoneTomorrow on January 06, 2017, 08:25:41 am

To infinity and beyond...

(http://i.imgur.com/8MTINfH.png)

Who'd have thought back in June 2015 that this would become the most-replied-to thread on the entire forum?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on January 06, 2017, 09:48:56 am

Who knows... it might make it into technological history as Engineer Vs Marketing saga and our grandchildren would read it one day and you can proudly say "Yeah, I was a part of that"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on January 06, 2017, 10:35:19 am

Batteriser/Batteroo/Roohparvar will want to be very careful. The Australian Consumer Law (ACL) is actually very powerful when it comes to standing up to consumer rights and what's "fair".

When it comes to overheating/shorting/damaging effect of inserting a Batteroo sleeve into a product, it'll most certainly be considered a "major problem" under ACL, with the definition being:

A product or good has a major problem when:
• it has a problem that would have stopped someone from buying it if they’d known about it
• it is unsafe
• it is significantly different from the sample or description
• it doesn’t do what the business said it would, or what you asked for and can’t easily be fixed.

And that definition is legislated, not just a "guide".

Under the ACL, Batteroo might also find themselves liable for any compensation resulting from damages or loss, for example, causing damage to equipment or devices where someone has used the Batteroo sleeve.

All that aside, under the law, a product sold in Australia must be of "acceptable quality" including:

• safe, lasting, with no faults
• look acceptable
• do all the things someone would normally expect them to do.

In addition to:

• match descriptions made by the salesperson, on packaging and labels, and in promotions or advertising
• match any demonstration model or sample you asked for
• be fit for the purpose the business told you it would be fit for and for any purpose that you made known to the business before purchasing
• come with full title and ownership
• not carry any hidden debts or extra charges
• come with undisturbed possession, so no one has a right to take the goods away or prevent you from using them
• meet any extra promises made about performance, condition and quality, such as life time guarantees and money back offers
• have spare parts and repair facilities available for a reasonable time after purchase unless you were told otherwise.

Right there Batteroo ticks so many of the boxes which suggest this product is not suitable for sale in Australia and even though they are an international organisation, if they sell a product here, they are bound by our laws.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: spider on January 06, 2017, 11:38:38 am

Rofl :palm:
Until a few days ago they like almost every single tweet I mentioned them in.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 06, 2017, 11:39:45 am

Quote from: Halcyon on January 06, 2017, 10:35:19 am

Batteriser/Batteroo/Roohparvar will want to be very careful. The Australian Consumer Law (ACL) is actually very powerful..

Naw they will have an Australian agent to worry about that :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on January 06, 2017, 11:45:25 am

Quote from: spider on January 06, 2017, 11:38:38 am

Rofl :palm:
Until a few days ago they like almost every single tweet I mentioned them in.

Uh Oh, what'd you been tweeting to them?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on January 06, 2017, 11:49:46 am

with or without a batteriser a alkaline battery will overheat if you short it

this test doesn't prove anything with regard to the batteriser

Quote from: kalleboo on January 06, 2017, 05:20:59 am

Time for some *highly* scientific testing...  ;D

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=283328;image)

It's really hard to test these things until the battery holders I ordered arrive, since the positive terminal of the battery doesn't make contact with the sleeve unless there's compression on the battery, so probing stuff turns into an acrobatic feat.

I also don't have a very good temp probe, but I reached 100 C on the positive terminal of the sleeve after 3 minutes, and after 5 minutes the whole battery was too hot to hold in your hand. Don't think it got hot enough to melt anything.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 06, 2017, 11:59:18 am

Quote from: Halcyon on January 06, 2017, 10:35:19 am

Batteriser/Batteroo/Roohparvar will want to be very careful. The Australian Consumer Law (ACL) is actually very powerful when it comes to standing up to consumer rights and what's "fair".

When it comes to overheating/shorting/damaging effect of inserting a Batteroo sleeve into a product, it'll most certainly be considered a "major problem" under ACL, with the definition being:

A product or good has a major problem when:
• it has a problem that would have stopped someone from buying it if they’d known about it
• it is unsafe
• it is significantly different from the sample or description
• it doesn’t do what the business said it would, or what you asked for and can’t easily be fixed.

Who does inform the ACL or do they act on their own? I guess filing a complaint is easy for normal end customers from Australia, and providing some proves like Dave's video and links to this forum with the deleted Indiegogo comments would help.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on January 06, 2017, 12:00:49 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on January 06, 2017, 11:49:46 am

with or without a batteriser a alkaline battery will overheat if you short it

Did you miss the sarcasm?

I was really just hoping for some magic smoke or something, but no such luck.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on January 06, 2017, 12:22:08 pm

Quote from: kalleboo on January 06, 2017, 12:00:49 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on January 06, 2017, 11:49:46 am

with or without a batteriser a alkaline battery will overheat if you short it

Did you miss the sarcasm?

lol, sorry i missed it by a mile it seems!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 06, 2017, 12:23:11 pm

Quote from: AndyC_772 on November 24, 2016, 09:36:00 am

Does anyone see a CE mark, or any other mandatory approval mark, anywhere on the product or its packaging?

If someone from Germany has a package and can take a picture of it, you can file a complaint with an online form here:

https://www.wettbewerbszentrale.de/de/beschwerdestelle/hinweise/ (https://www.wettbewerbszentrale.de/de/beschwerdestelle/hinweise/)

It is illegal to sell electronic products for end customers in Germany without the CE mark.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on January 06, 2017, 12:28:21 pm

Since there's no official EU distributor, I believe it's technically the customer who is the importer, and who therefore carries responsibility for ensuring the product is CE marked. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the answer is more along the lines of "you shouldn't buy this" rather than "they shouldn't sell this to you".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on January 06, 2017, 12:45:45 pm

some PCB closeups for your viewing pleasure

These are the AA size batteriser

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on January 06, 2017, 12:53:40 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on January 06, 2017, 12:45:45 pm

some PCB closeups for your viewing pleasure

These are the AA size batteriser

The ic could be the same, but the layout looks different to the AAA Batteriser:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1097209/#msg1097209 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1097209/#msg1097209)
It would be interesting to see if the circuit is identical.
The pinout looks similar, but the AA Batteriser has 2 inductors.
Could you measure if both inductors are connected in parallel or if there are two independent boost conveters? You probably have to remove one inductor when doing the measurement, because both inductors are connected to the same input voltage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on January 06, 2017, 01:28:20 pm

Quote from: bktemp on January 06, 2017, 12:53:40 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on January 06, 2017, 12:45:45 pm

some PCB closeups for your viewing pleasure

These are the AA size batteriser

The ic could be the same, but the layout looks different to the AAA Batteriser:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1097209/#msg1097209 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1097209/#msg1097209)
It would be interesting to see if the circuit is identical.
The pinout looks similar, but the AA Batteriser has 2 inductors.
Could you measure if both inductors are connected in parallel or if there are two independent boost conveters? You probably have to remove one inductor when doing the measurement, because both inductors are connected to the same input voltage.

the inductors are NOT in parallel looks like each one has it's own connection to the IC

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on January 06, 2017, 01:50:39 pm

Maybe a design like this?
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/260514612_fig2_Fig-2-Equivalent-circuit-of-the-tapped-inductor-buck-boost-converter-in-a-quasi-steady (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/260514612_fig2_Fig-2-Equivalent-circuit-of-the-tapped-inductor-buck-boost-converter-in-a-quasi-steady)

edit: nah. The inductors in that design share the kernel, and they aren't connected to each other on either side.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 06, 2017, 01:51:48 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 06, 2017, 11:59:18 am

Quote from: Halcyon on January 06, 2017, 10:35:19 am

Batteriser/Batteroo/Roohparvar will want to be very careful. The Australian Consumer Law (ACL) is actually very powerful when it comes to standing up to consumer rights and what's "fair".

When it comes to overheating/shorting/damaging effect of inserting a Batteroo sleeve into a product, it'll most certainly be considered a "major problem" under ACL, with the definition being:

A product or good has a major problem when:
• it has a problem that would have stopped someone from buying it if they’d known about it
• it is unsafe
• it is significantly different from the sample or description
• it doesn’t do what the business said it would, or what you asked for and can’t easily be fixed.

Who does inform the ACL or do they act on their own? I guess filing a complaint is easy for normal end customers from Australia, and providing some proves like Dave's video and links to this forum with the deleted Indiegogo comments would help.

Just a clarification: ACL is the legislation ("Australian Consumer Law")

I believe the appropriate avenue for reporting is to each state's "Fair Trading" authority - that is, assuming you cannot reach an acceptable resolution with the merchant.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on January 06, 2017, 02:06:18 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on January 06, 2017, 01:28:20 pm

the inductors are NOT in parallel looks like each one has it's own connection to the IC

Are you sure there is no connection underneath the chip?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: chris_leyson on January 06, 2017, 02:17:47 pm

Can't think of a good reason why you would use inductors in parallel, it's got to be an interleaved boost converter, easy to check with a scope.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on January 06, 2017, 02:35:07 pm

Quote from: Marcel_X on January 06, 2017, 02:06:18 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on January 06, 2017, 01:28:20 pm

the inductors are NOT in parallel looks like each one has it's own connection to the IC

Are you sure there is no connection underneath the chip?

yes, because i measured it

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: grumpydoc on January 06, 2017, 02:44:07 pm

Quote from: Cerebus on January 06, 2017, 12:10:46 am

If you're relying on that translation I don't think you can draw any conclusions on the writer's understanding.

My French is pretty ropey after more than thirty years away from the subject, but even taking that into account I can clearly see that the translation falls far short of satisfactory. 

For instance, constat (which wasn't translated) means observation and the sentence fragment "Partant d’un constat qu’une pile délivre 1.2v en pleine charge," translates as "Starting from the observation that a fully charged battery delivers 1.2V," which is a long way from the translation given.

+1 for the difficulty of learning French, never tried German but my son, who is learning both at school also says it is easier.

I'm nowhere near fluent¹ but one problem is that the original French uses the word "charge" in a few places. Unfortunately, while it can mean "charge (as in "état de charge de la batterie²" = "battery charge level") it can also mean "load" so "en pleine charge" could mean "fully charged" or "fully loaded", both are about equally valid.

If we were talking NiCd I'd lean towards the former given the voltage. If we're talking about alkaline then I'd hazard a guess that the intent was 1.2V under load.

[1] I still can't hold much of a conversation and am hopeless on the 'phone but it's getting better.
[2] "batterie" generally means large/lead acid, eg for a vehicle. AA & AAA batteries are "piles"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on January 06, 2017, 02:46:40 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 06, 2017, 12:23:11 pm

If someone from Germany has a package and can take a picture of it, you can file a complaint with an online form here:

https://www.wettbewerbszentrale.de/de/beschwerdestelle/hinweise/ (https://www.wettbewerbszentrale.de/de/beschwerdestelle/hinweise/)

It is illegal to sell electronic products for end customers in Germany without the CE mark.

It's a tad more complicated. If something is going to be sold inside the EU it needs the CE. As a consumer you could import non-CE stuff as you don't intend to resell it, but customs will withhold those products to protect you. The reality is that customs can't check every package and a lot of non-CE products end up in the hands of consumers. But there might be a liability issue when you pass on a non-CE product to someone else, e.g. as a gift, or turn it on, e.g. EMI. It's a grey area.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 06, 2017, 03:09:43 pm

Quote from: madires on January 06, 2017, 02:46:40 pm

It's a tad more complicated. If something is going to be sold inside the EU it needs the CE. As a consumer you could import non-CE stuff as you don't intend to resell it, but customs will withhold those products to protect you. The reality is that customs can't check every package and a lot of non-CE products end up in the hands of consumers. But there might be a liability issue when you pass on a non-CE product to someone else, e.g. as a gift, or turn it on, e.g. EMI. It's a grey area.

Right. I wonder why they didn't print the CE mark on the package, with all these experience in product development (85 years combined). The EU is not a small market.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on January 06, 2017, 03:28:32 pm

There's no WEEE symbol either. Or FCC, or C-tick. Not even UL  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 06, 2017, 03:38:11 pm

Quote from: AndyC_772 on January 06, 2017, 03:28:32 pm

There's no WEEE symbol either. Or FCC, or C-tick. Not even UL  :-DD

Well considering it has never been certified by anyone for anything, that is no surprise.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on January 06, 2017, 03:46:58 pm

Idea for a new debunking video:
- Get a random device with a battery gauge, and a run time of a few hours
- Do the same test as the train but filming also the battery gauge and show how Batterizoo makes the gauge useless as well as the reduced battery lifetime with the batterizer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on January 06, 2017, 04:02:03 pm

Quote from: f4eru on January 06, 2017, 03:46:58 pm

Idea for a new debunking video:
- Get a random device with a battery gauge, and a run time of a few hours
- Do the same test as the train but filming also the battery gauge and show how it'S useless as well as the reduced battery lifetime with the batterizer.

While the battery gauge issue is a big fail for Batteroo, I just don't think in the real world it rises to the monumental issue that it seems to have here.

Most of the devices consumers use don't even have gauges, and even when they do, they are mostly of the type that only has 3 segments that are already almost useless even without the Batteroo.  And even then I would argue that these aren't mission critical devices where it's important to be able to predict exactly when the battery will die.  I've got packs of AA, AAA and 9V batteries lying around, and when a particular device dies, I replace the battery.  While I don't use a wireless keyboard, I would probably ignore the battery gauge and just wait until it stopped working and replace the batteries then.  I couldn't care less if the battery gauge went from 100-0 in 10 seconds.

Yes, I realize that certain devices and applications require a battery gauge, and certainly safety applications where it is critical (smoke & CO2 sensors, even though those don't have guages but alarms that sound when the battery is low).  There has been plenty of talk about pro photographers and musicians and DJs that need the accurate battery gauge.  This is true, but this is not the average consumer buying cheap crap at Wal Mart or the dollar store that is the target audience of the Batteriser.  Such a video would be damning for sure, but I just don't think the average user is really going to care.

I think it is sufficient to simply point out (and Dave has already done this) that using Batterisers in mission critical devices like smoke alarms (and let's not forget military applications--remember how Batteroo was promoting Batterisers to the military so troops didn't have to be carrying around a huge load of AA batteries?   :-DD ) could have disastrous results.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on January 06, 2017, 04:15:24 pm

It's not about the usual battery gauge usage.
It's about Batterizer trying to sell the battery gauge going up for their "proof" there's more energy left, which still has to be debunked in an understandable manner.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on January 06, 2017, 04:20:45 pm

Quote from: f4eru on January 06, 2017, 04:15:24 pm

It's not about the usual battery gauge usage.
It's about Batterizer trying to sell the battery gauge going up for their "proof" there's more energy left, which still has to be debunked in an understandable manner.

Good point.  I suppose it would be sufficient to have a short video removing a "discharged" battery from a device with a gauge, putting the Batteriser on it, showing the gauge jump to "full", and then 5 minutes later showing the device dying.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on January 06, 2017, 04:41:26 pm

+1 for a video explaining/showing how the Batteriser manipulates the battery gauge (explaing the difference between voltage and power/energy so that the avarage Batterizer user can understand it).
That helps probably much more than debunking each claim individually.

I would also like to see a test using the monkey. Why? Because it sounds like fun and it isn't any arbitrary item but was chosen by Batteriser. Since Dave has already prepared the monkey it should be easy to do, maybe in the same way as the train test in one long video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: spider on January 06, 2017, 05:01:10 pm

Quote from: samgab on January 06, 2017, 11:45:25 am

Quote from: spider on January 06, 2017, 11:38:38 am

Rofl :palm:
Until a few days ago they like almost every single tweet I mentioned them in.

Uh Oh, what'd you been tweeting to them?

I just tweeted 3 or 4 people who posted something like "I am gonna save batteries now" Dave's or Frank's videos.
And I asked batteroo why they did not use a camera from a popular brand.

In my opinion just some moderate criticism.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 06, 2017, 06:07:28 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on January 06, 2017, 01:28:20 pm

Quote from: bktemp on January 06, 2017, 12:53:40 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on January 06, 2017, 12:45:45 pm

some PCB closeups for your viewing pleasure

These are the AA size batteriser

The ic could be the same, but the layout looks different to the AAA Batteriser:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1097209/#msg1097209 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1097209/#msg1097209)
It would be interesting to see if the circuit is identical.
The pinout looks similar, but the AA Batteriser has 2 inductors.
Could you measure if both inductors are connected in parallel or if there are two independent boost conveters? You probably have to remove one inductor when doing the measurement, because both inductors are connected to the same input voltage.

the inductors are NOT in parallel looks like each one has it's own connection to the IC

I would say that this is a two-phase synchronous boost converter. Just one phase is used in the smaller AAA implementation.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on January 06, 2017, 06:17:32 pm

just been having a little tinker around with another 'riser i depotted and setup running on my bench PSUs. The top display is the input the lower is the output

the output voltage does scale with the input so there will be some kind of battery gauge movement for the device, i don't have time right now to do anything more so i will try and have a look over the weekend

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JiggyNinja on January 06, 2017, 06:23:45 pm

It only puts out 1.35V?

What about all those products they mentioned (but never specified) that cut out at 1.4V!!! It's unusable for those!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: P_Doped on January 06, 2017, 06:26:34 pm

I've seen references to fairly high current coming from the Batteroo and high temps under short circuit condition. 

Comments on boost converters:

Without special circuitry a boost converter is not protected against short circuits.  With a basic boost implementation, the boost circuit will have a diode or a PFET (with a parasitic parallel body diode) as the output switch.  With a low power, high efficiency boost as the Batteroo, I'd bet it has the PFET implementation.  The body of this PFET is often just connected to the output, assuming the output to be higher than the input.  That places the parasitic diode to be "pointed" to the output, reversed biased under normal operating conditions.  Under short circuit, that assumption is violated and there is a low impedance path from input to output of the ESR of the inductor and the (likely) PFET switch body diode in series.  It would be interesting to see if this is the case with the Batteroo.

Also, even if extra circuitry has been added in to protect against the (likely) PFET switch body diode being pointed to the output under conditions where the output is less than the input, there is also the control problem encountered under short circuit.  The boost control circuitry will recognize a large error voltage present.  In response, it will want to bring ever increasing current through the boost inductor.  If the current limiting circuitry isn't designed properly, the expected current limit can be exceeded by quite some amount.

Scope probing of the IC side of the inductor would show whether there is any switching action under short circuits; current probing through the inductor (takes a modification of lifting up one side of the inductor and inserting a current loop) will show the loop response when the output short is asserted.

Don't know if any of this is applicable to the Batteroo implementation, but there are boost design issues which can cause excessive current draw from the battery, not just an insulation short through the sleeve.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dexters_lab on January 06, 2017, 07:25:39 pm

Quote from: JiggyNinja on January 06, 2017, 06:23:45 pm

It only puts out 1.35V?

What about all those products they mentioned (but never specified) that cut out at 1.4V!!! It's unusable for those!

well nobody believed that 1.4v cutout anyway!

though i did kind of expect it to be a fixed output after all the discussions, i checked with the other batterisers i have and they seem to work the same way

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 06, 2017, 07:36:10 pm

Quote from: Cerebus on January 06, 2017, 01:59:47 am

Quote from: jancumps on January 06, 2017, 12:30:23 am

It's not google that made the mistake. The French writer says that the battery can't hold a current of 1.2V. He should use the word 'tension' instead of 'courant'.

That word has exactly the same usages as the English 'current'. Do you know enough French syntax and semantics to be sure which usage is 'current' as measured in amps and 'current' as in 'at the/this moment'? Plus, which of us hasn't occasionally said 'current' when they meant voltage or power. The structure of the sentence in question is sufficiently complex that I wasn't going to dare at a proper translation - there are at least two words that rely on you working out if they are used as verbs, nouns or adjectives and also working out their gender before you can say what they mean.

I really do hate French, even though it's the language I know best after English. I did something like 6 years of French at school and hated every minute. It was such a painful experience that I just assumed I was useless at anything other than English; then I spent a week in Germany, almost automatically learned everyday please/thankyou/"I'll have have the Hunter's Chicken with noodles and also a beer please" type German with no effort. It wasn't me that was broken, it was bloody French!

Thanks for pointing my mistake with constat?observation, i was tired when I did the translation and I made a mistake, that can happen (my mind wan't finding the correct work, I left the French in place and forgot to proofread the translation before sending).

And as being French, I think I understand pretty well that language. As jancumps is from Belgium I think it have a high chance he is a native French speaker. And "courant" in French is for current (as in amps), not voltage (as in volt).
And yes there are a lot of people that make the mistake, but no one a bit serious when speaking about electronic, at least not in such an article.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on January 06, 2017, 08:01:25 pm

Quote from: AndyC_772 on January 06, 2017, 12:28:21 pm

Since there's no official EU distributor, I believe it's technically the customer who is the importer, and who therefore carries responsibility for ensuring the product is CE marked. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the answer is more along the lines of "you shouldn't buy this" rather than "they shouldn't sell this to you".

From memory, I believe that the responsibility for CE marking falls on the 'person' that 'makes available for sale' a product in the EU. i.e. There is a commercial element beyond merely importing something for personal use.

Ah, found it! Here's the wording from an (arbitrary) EU directive:

Quote

‘Placing on the market’ means making a product available for the first time on the Community market with a view to its distribution or use within the Community, whether for reward or free of charge and irrespective of the selling technique;

That's not quite the same as I just said but 'placing on the market' definately carries a very different implication than merely importing for personal use.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on January 06, 2017, 08:34:23 pm

Quote from: Godzil on January 06, 2017, 07:36:10 pm

Thanks for pointing my mistake with constat?observation, i was tired when I did the translation and I made a mistake, that can happen (my mind wan't finding the correct work, I left the French in place and forgot to proofread the translation before sending).

And as being French, I think I understand pretty well that language. As jancumps is from Belgium I think it have a high chance he is a native French speaker. And "courant" in French is for current (as in amps), not voltage (as in volt).
And yes there are a lot of people that make the mistake, but no one a bit serious when speaking about electronic, at least not in such an article.

French? Really? Then I apologise, but to me (and others) it looked like Google's cack-handed efforts at translation rather than the English of a non-English speaker.

There's a rule for professional translators that they only translate into their native language. (Learned from an old colleague who was a Thai->English translator and had a Thai wife who was an English->Thai translator.) One only has to read a single 'chinglish' manual to realise why that's a good rule. For casual, as opposed to professional, use it's OK to ignore that rule but only, I think, if you have a truly good grasp of the target language. In your English translation you missed out some subtleties in the original that even I, as a very poor French student, could spot. I think you owe it to the original author to get the translation right if you're going to criticise them publicly .

I hope this doesn't come over as too harsh or over critical. It's not intended to be; merely to say 'caution and care required'. I'm fighting the end of a migraine headache as I type this and I know that my language skills take a hit when I've got one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 06, 2017, 08:53:49 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on January 06, 2017, 07:25:39 pm

Quote from: JiggyNinja on January 06, 2017, 06:23:45 pm

It only puts out 1.35V?

What about all those products they mentioned (but never specified) that cut out at 1.4V!!! It's unusable for those!

well nobody believed that 1.4v cutout anyway!

though i did kind of expect it to be a fixed output after all the discussions, i checked with the other batterisers i have and they seem to work the same way

Have you tested input voltages from 0.1V to 1.6V to see what efficiency and output voltage it gives

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: P_Doped on January 06, 2017, 09:47:12 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on January 06, 2017, 12:44:43 am

Lets see how long this comment will stay up before it is deleted.

Quote

Indie Black
Do you have any comment on why the product performed so poorly in this test?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl90m2KHbNk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl90m2KHbNk)

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29047266/Sk%C3%A6rmbillede%20p%C3%A5%202017-01-06%2001-33-17.png)

That comment has been removed now.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 06, 2017, 10:03:36 pm

Quote from: lpickup on January 06, 2017, 04:02:03 pm

Quote from: f4eru on January 06, 2017, 03:46:58 pm

Idea for a new debunking video:
- Get a random device with a battery gauge, and a run time of a few hours
- Do the same test as the train but filming also the battery gauge and show how it'S useless as well as the reduced battery lifetime with the batterizer.

While the battery gauge issue is a big fail for Batteroo, I just don't think in the real world it rises to the monumental issue that it seems to have here.

It's a big deal because they don't mention it.
People will at least be aware of a semi-usable battery gauge before Batteriser and now completely non-functional afterwards. Many will blame their product being faulty.
And they are tricking people into thinking 100% battery gauge level means increased battery life, when in all likelihood they will get reduced battery life.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: trophosphere on January 06, 2017, 11:34:04 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on January 06, 2017, 08:53:49 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on January 06, 2017, 07:25:39 pm

well nobody believed that 1.4v cutout anyway!

though i did kind of expect it to be a fixed output after all the discussions, i checked with the other batterisers i have and they seem to work the same way

Have you tested input voltages from 0.1V to 1.6V to see what efficiency and output voltage it gives

I always thought that when the output voltage of a converter starts "tracking" its input that means the converter is just failing to regulate. If that is the case then I bet if you put a scope on it the output would look even nastier than what it would look while outputting the correct voltage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 06, 2017, 11:43:24 pm

Quote from: dexters_lab on January 06, 2017, 06:17:32 pm

just been having a little tinker around with another 'riser i depotted and setup running on my bench PSUs. The top display is the input the lower is the output

the output voltage does scale with the input so there will be some kind of battery gauge movement for the device, i don't have time right now to do anything more so i will try and have a look over the weekend

Looks similar to what I measured, see here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1096221/#msg1096221 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1096221/#msg1096221)

But I measured a slightly higher output voltage for 1 V input voltage, and interestingly constant over load changes. Maybe you should measure input and output voltage directly at the battery with a multimeter (four-terminal sensing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-terminal_sensing)). There are losses on both sides, which adds up, especially when you try it with higher currents. 5 A would be fun.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on January 07, 2017, 02:40:14 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 06, 2017, 10:03:36 pm

Quote from: lpickup on January 06, 2017, 04:02:03 pm

Quote from: f4eru on January 06, 2017, 03:46:58 pm

Idea for a new debunking video:
- Get a random device with a battery gauge, and a run time of a few hours
- Do the same test as the train but filming also the battery gauge and show how it'S useless as well as the reduced battery lifetime with the batterizer.

While the battery gauge issue is a big fail for Batteroo, I just don't think in the real world it rises to the monumental issue that it seems to have here.

It's a big deal because they don't mention it.
People will at least be aware of a semi-usable battery gauge before Batteriser and now completely non-functional afterwards. Many will blame their product being faulty.
And they are tricking people into thinking 100% battery gauge level means increased battery life, when in all likelihood they will get reduced battery life.

Given how the output voltage is scaling with the input (but higher), it's almost as if they thought of that... I still think it's a pretty useless product, but that point really deserves more testing. So far everyone who has tested them has seen the output isn't a constant 1.5V.

The fact that the AA version is 2-phase does suggest they may really have a custom IC in there, as I can't find anything similar from a quick search... or it could be an existing IC run outside of its published specs (i.e. its Vref might not be fully powered) to give that input-dependent output voltage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on January 07, 2017, 09:03:09 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 06, 2017, 10:03:36 pm

Quote from: lpickup on January 06, 2017, 04:02:03 pm

Quote from: f4eru on January 06, 2017, 03:46:58 pm

Idea for a new debunking video:
- Get a random device with a battery gauge, and a run time of a few hours
- Do the same test as the train but filming also the battery gauge and show how it'S useless as well as the reduced battery lifetime with the batterizer.

While the battery gauge issue is a big fail for Batteroo, I just don't think in the real world it rises to the monumental issue that it seems to have here.

It's a big deal because they don't mention it.
People will at least be aware of a semi-usable battery gauge before Batteriser and now completely non-functional afterwards. Many will blame their product being faulty.
And they are tricking people into thinking 100% battery gauge level means increased battery life, when in all likelihood they will get reduced battery life.

To make it worse, Batteroo uses this misconception in their advantage. Their Apple keyboard video says it all. Almost all the positive feedback that Batteroo gets seemed to be based on what people saw on their battery gauge, and then Bob always nods along saying things  like "glad we could help".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ontaelio on January 08, 2017, 09:24:56 am

Quote from: Cerebus on January 06, 2017, 08:34:23 pm

There's a rule for professional translators that they only translate into their native language.

Sorry for the OT, but no. The best translations are achieved when working in pair: the translator is native in source language, the editor is native in target one (both having good knowledge in both languages). I think your Thai-English friends work this way, or at least help each other. This is especially true with fiction, where the translator may miss nuances in the original text. And even more true for hard-to-grasp languages like Chinese (or even Russian). In RL such pairs are rare due to budgetary reasons, so clients prefer to work with target-native translators: it gives better results in terms of readability, but not translation accuracy (which no one really cares about).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 08, 2017, 12:11:45 pm

Could I ask for anyone in the EU/UK that have AA sleeve to lend me one for a some test? I would like to test it in the device I mentioned earlier (the Bandai WonderSwan), and make a timelapse video of it :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on January 09, 2017, 06:02:36 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 06, 2017, 02:52:36 am

Don't know if this is just an outdated database entry, but searching for the UPC barcode on the Batteroo sleeve package results in this entry:

http://www.upcitemdb.com/upc/853577006001 (http://www.upcitemdb.com/upc/853577006001) : "Slim Edge 300 Thread Count Bamboo Sheet Set"

Some online marketplaces require that you have a UPC for each item you want to sell, so it's *very* common for unscrupulous companies to use barcodes that don't belong to them.

EDIT:  If you look on the GS1 database (http://gepir.gs1.org/index.php/search-by-gtin) (who issue out barcodes) it's registered correctly:

(http://i.imgur.com/If13T2u.png)

EDIT2:

Another note of interest, the address given on the GS1 database is actually for SKTA, which is one of their investors I believe?  A lot of different companies.

Do Batteroo not have their own offices?
http://sktainnopartners.com/contact/ (http://sktainnopartners.com/contact/)
http://www.gridmaven.com/contact-us/ (http://www.gridmaven.com/contact-us/)
http://www.entrixco.com/m/about_en.html (http://www.entrixco.com/m/about_en.html)
https://www.yelp.com/biz/excelics-semicondtr-sunnyvale (https://www.yelp.com/biz/excelics-semicondtr-sunnyvale)
https://www.linkedin.com/company/etopus-technology-inc. (https://www.linkedin.com/company/etopus-technology-inc.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Stupid Beard on January 09, 2017, 10:58:20 am

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on January 09, 2017, 06:02:36 am

Another note of interest, the address given on the GS1 database is actually for SKTA, which is one of their investors I believe?  A lot of different companies.

Do Batteroo not have their own offices?

SKTA provide office space  to the companies they invest in and they're all in one place. This was covered possibly multiple times in the thread already, but I don't recall exactly where in the 327 pages :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: RFZ on January 09, 2017, 06:08:27 pm

Wohoo, a load of Batteroo goodness arrived today :D
As I already said on August 15, 2015, I do have a LCD weather station / clock that starts to get really dim at 1.29V per cell. I've now put two new AAA batteries in together with two batterisers and saved two from the same batch for the next time.
Since I expect the LCD to go from "good readable" to "almost dead" within few hours / days with the batterisers on, I'll count the days from now on to this point. Afterwards, I will put the saved AAA batteries in without the batterisers and check the display readability after the time I got from the first run. I hope the result will be clear...

See you again in few months  ;D

Not sure what to do with the other ones for now...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on January 09, 2017, 06:45:29 pm

Quote from: RFZ on January 09, 2017, 06:08:27 pm

Not sure what to do with the other ones for now...

There are quite a few people on this forum that would appreciate some for testing.
They will share their results with the community.
I am pretty sure there are a number of people in the EU, so that will make postage cheap.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 09, 2017, 06:57:11 pm

Quote from: RFZ on January 09, 2017, 06:08:27 pm

See you again in few months  ;D

Not sure what to do with the other ones for now...

Surely you own something that doesn't take months to discharge a battery.

(If not, either go to a local toy store and get something or send a few to somebody else...  :) )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on January 09, 2017, 07:21:24 pm

RFZ, please try them in an AM radio...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: RFZ on January 09, 2017, 08:01:33 pm

Quote from: Delta on January 09, 2017, 07:21:24 pm

RFZ, please try them in an AM radio...

Thx, good idea! I should have a FM/AM radio that takes 4xAA... Just have to find it now ;D

Btw. the test with the clock / weather station looks like a complete fail. So far, it fails to receive a time signal or a temperature signal from the outdoor sensor. I'm pretty disappointed because I really believe this device could benefit from the batteriser :(

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on January 09, 2017, 08:28:55 pm

Quote from: RFZ on January 09, 2017, 08:01:33 pm

Btw. the test with the clock / weather station looks like a complete fail. So far, it fails to receive a time signal or a temperature signal from the outdoor sensor. I'm pretty disappointed because I really believe this device could benefit from the batteriser :(

Sounds similar to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8-7NWbZgBE&t=205s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8-7NWbZgBE&t=205s)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 09, 2017, 08:41:07 pm

Quote from: RFZ on January 09, 2017, 08:01:33 pm

Btw. the test with the clock / weather station looks like a complete fail. So far, it fails to receive a time signal or a temperature signal from the outdoor sensor. I'm pretty disappointed because I really believe this device could benefit from the batteriser :(

I already posted in the testing thread:

"What does the clock work on where he is? Probably WWVB at 60kHz with 70kW output for the whole of the united states. You are trying to pick up a tiny signal on an internal ferrite rod antenna then stick a pair unshielded inductors carrying 10s of mAs of current spikes a couple of inches away - what do you think is going to happen? "

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Twoflower on January 09, 2017, 08:57:26 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on January 09, 2017, 08:41:07 pm

Quote from: RFZ on January 09, 2017, 08:01:33 pm

Btw. the test with the clock / weather station looks like a complete fail. So far, it fails to receive a time signal or a temperature signal from the outdoor sensor. I'm pretty disappointed because I really believe this device could benefit from the batteriser :(

I already posted in the testing thread:

"What does the clock work on where he is? Probably WWVB at 60kHz with 70kW output for the whole of the united states. You are trying to pick up a tiny signal on an internal ferrite rod antenna then stick a pair unshielded inductors carrying 10s of mAs of current spikes a couple of inches away - what do you think is going to happen? "

Probably his clock is not looking for the US time signal but the DCF77 from Mainflingen Germany. Transmission frequency is 77.5kHz with 50kW. Different station, probably same problem.  >:D According to your flag (UK) you might be able to receive that station.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 09, 2017, 09:16:21 pm

Quote from: RFZ on January 09, 2017, 08:01:33 pm

Btw. the test with the clock / weather station looks like a complete fail. So far, it fails to receive a time signal or a temperature signal from the outdoor sensor. I'm pretty disappointed because I really believe this device could benefit from the batteriser :(

Our first failure with an RF device?
I've got a AAA weather station, will have to try them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on January 09, 2017, 09:24:16 pm

The recent posts lead me to ask...
"I wonder what Batteriser/roo's initial design test & validation was performed with...?"

- Don't say 'Probes the Monkey" - that was simply a demo platform.

Of course we all know the answer, but how on earth could someone who claims to have various certificates be so completely and utterly wrong on virtually every level of his product design, engineering and development?   (Forget the truth-in-marketing - that was worse than a joke.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on January 09, 2017, 09:36:17 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on January 09, 2017, 08:41:07 pm

Quote from: RFZ on January 09, 2017, 08:01:33 pm

Btw. the test with the clock / weather station looks like a complete fail. So far, it fails to receive a time signal or a temperature signal from the outdoor sensor. I'm pretty disappointed because I really believe this device could benefit from the batteriser :(

I already posted in the testing thread:

"What does the clock work on where he is? Probably WWVB at 60kHz with 70kW output for the whole of the united states. You are trying to pick up a tiny signal on an internal ferrite rod antenna then stick a pair unshielded inductors carrying 10s of mAs of current spikes a couple of inches away - what do you think is going to happen? "

The poster, RFZ, is in Germany, so the most likely time transmitter is DCF77 near Frankfurt am Main, very definitely not WWVB on the far side of the Atlantic Ocean. It's a nominal 50 kW and is easily receivable in London (I used to use a wristwatch that synced from DCF77).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on January 09, 2017, 09:38:30 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 09, 2017, 09:16:21 pm

Our first failure with an RF device?
I've got a AAA weather station, will have to try them.

It's a shame we don't have radio time clock broadcasts in Australia as I've got a AA weather station with radio clock functionality from Oregon scientific that I'd have loaned you for a test. :(

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: RFZ on January 09, 2017, 09:39:22 pm

Hey all: The clock in question uses DCF77 (77,5 kHz) and 433 MHz for the outdoor sensor. Both still without a signal...

I found my AM/FM radio that takes 4xAA batteries. With the batterisers on I found some FM stations and they sounded normal to me... On AM (5-15MHz, 146-281 KHz, 531-1602 KHz) I just got lots of noise and buzzing sounds, but I'm not sure if there are any AM stations I could possibly receive... Since the radio won't power on correctly without the batterisers (point for them, but I guess it's because the batterisers make better contact on the badly corroded tabs) I have to clean the tabs and also make a more repeatable test setup because I can even hear my phone changing the AM sound when recording next to the radio...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 09, 2017, 10:00:12 pm

Quote from: RFZ on January 09, 2017, 09:39:22 pm

I found my AM/FM radio that takes 4xAA batteries. With the batterisers on I found some FM stations and they sounded normal to me... On AM (5-15MHz, 146-281 KHz, 531-1602 KHz) I just got lots of noise and buzzing sounds, but I'm not sure if there are any AM stations I could possibly receive...

I can hear at least 3 radio stations on AM without too much distortions with my cheap AM/FM radio here in Cologne: a German station, and I guess BBC UK, and something which sounds Spanish. But quality depends heavily on the time of the day. Maybe buy some fresh batteries, just to compare it with the Batteroo sleeve. Because EC Projects and you reported problems with the radio controlled clock, I wouldn't be surprised if AM radio sounds awful.

FM radio is usually a lot stronger, so that it should not be that worse. Nice anecdote: I know someone who says he could hear an occasionally bus contention in a digital system he was testing with an AM radio, which didn't show up on a scope (this was the old times, without the cheap modern scopes nowadays with millions of waveforms per second, if you were lucky and got a digital scope at all).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on January 10, 2017, 09:53:47 am

Quote from: RFZ on January 09, 2017, 08:01:33 pm

Btw. the test with the clock / weather station looks like a complete fail. So far, it fails to receive a time signal or a temperature signal from the outdoor sensor. I'm pretty disappointed because I really believe this device could benefit from the batteriser :(

That's #2 for the radio clock category. The outdoor sensor is usually 433MHz. A few more and we can conclude that Batteroo sleeves don't work with radio clocks or weather stations. Please check other short range devices in the ISM bands too.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on January 10, 2017, 10:11:16 am

As I discovered when designing and building my DCF77 Radio Nixie Clock - Any DC/DC Boosters anywhere near the antenna pretty much wipe out the signal.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 10, 2017, 01:15:38 pm

Quote from: McBryce on January 10, 2017, 10:11:16 am

As I discovered when designing and building my DCF77 Radio Nixie Clock - Any DC/DC Boosters anywhere near the antenna pretty much wipe out the signal.

As expected. Anything using a ferrite rod antenna will likely be very badly affected. That doesn't explain 433MHz problems. Probably the substantial and unexpected ripple from the batteriseroos messing up synthesiser PLLs.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on January 10, 2017, 01:38:23 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on January 10, 2017, 01:15:38 pm

That doesn't explain 433MHz problems. Probably the substantial and unexpected ripple from the batteriseroos messing up synthesiser PLLs.

Only the more better ones use a superhet receiver with a PLL synthesiser, a simple (super)regenerative receiver is more common, because it is cheaper and needs less power. The ripple of the Batteriser probable affects the operation or the low level output signal of the regenerative receiver.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on January 10, 2017, 05:20:46 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on January 09, 2017, 08:41:07 pm

You are trying to pick up a tiny signal on an internal ferrite rod antenna then stick a pair unshielded inductors carrying 10s of mAs of current spikes a couple of inches away - what do you think is going to happen? "

That Batteroo admits they didn't do any EMC testing ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amirm on January 10, 2017, 07:04:02 pm

Can't Dave or someone else with a spectrum analyzer quickly measure the radiated emissions pretty easily to add some meat to the discussion here?

And are there any regulatory marks on the packaging or the product?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on January 10, 2017, 07:08:47 pm

Nobody has shown pictures of any that I've seen. A complaint to regulatory authorities could, if they have the capacity to investigate, end very badly for Batteroo.

What's particularly odd is there's no real reason why the Batteriser should fail regulatory testing. They *could* have had EMC and safety testing carried out, and it *could* have passed. It's just not that technically difficult, or expensive, or time consuming.

The evidence suggests they just haven't bothered, and that's pathetic, IMHO.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 10, 2017, 07:53:01 pm

Quote from: amirm on January 10, 2017, 07:04:02 pm

Can't Dave or someone else with a spectrum analyzer quickly measure the radiated emissions

No one can 'quickly' measure anything which is why test labs charge $1000+ a day.

Quote from: AndyC_772 on January 10, 2017, 07:08:47 pm

Nobody has shown pictures of any that I've seen.

They did radiated emission testing on a prototype with a stupid 1k load. The results are posted on their website.

The testing was garbage with the switcher spending most of its time shut down and the other problem is what is a realistic test environment? What is a realistic antenna to hang on it to represent a worst case application? How do you do anything below 30MHz?  Do you say it needs to have a remote load and do conducted on the wires?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amirm on January 11, 2017, 06:06:12 am

Quote from: Hensingler on January 10, 2017, 07:53:01 pm

No one can 'quickly' measure anything which is why test labs charge $1000+ a day.

That's a different animal.  Not asking for a controlled environment to measure compliance.  We know the frequency of the RF transmitter for the weather station.  A spectrum analysis of before and after batterizer would show its contribution pretty easily.  Dave has the Rigol analyzer which easily covers 433 Mhz as does his Tek scope.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on January 11, 2017, 06:59:29 am

I don't think Batteriser violates EMC rules.
Most likely all the problems with receivers is the low frequency ripple (the burst rate of the PFM operation). It is below the EMC testing range, but many battery powered devices rely on the batteries as a clean power supply. DCF77 or the regenerative rf receivers require a really clean power source (<10mVpp ripple) to operate correctly, otherwise the sensitivity will be reduced or they won't work at all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 11, 2017, 09:07:20 pm

Awesome comment, hope someone posts the video again on the indiegogo page

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on January 12, 2017, 08:26:31 am

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on January 11, 2017, 09:07:20 pm

Awesome comment, hope someone posts the video again on the indiegogo page

Crikey, $19 either an idiot or someone who wants to test them....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jpc on January 12, 2017, 08:33:54 am

Sounds like aje and Batteroo are made for each other. Birds of a feather and all that. Not to imply that all who feel they have been ripped off will act in the same way. Or am I being naive in my dotage in expecting some integrity from people.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on January 12, 2017, 08:54:12 am

Quote from: jpc on January 12, 2017, 08:33:54 am

Sounds like aje and Batteroo are made for each other. Birds of a feather and all that. Not to imply that all who feel they have been ripped off will act in the same way. Or am I being naive in my dotage in expecting some integrity from people.

yes it did occur to me that dumping them on eBay when he/she knows they don't work is somewhat amoral.... but was more surprised at the price they got for them....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jpc on January 12, 2017, 10:09:19 am

Quote from: StuUK on Today at 08:54:12 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=48950.msg1111738#msg1111738)

>Quote from: jpc on Today at 08:33:54 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=48950.msg1111732#msg1111732)

Sounds like aje and Batteroo are made for each other. Birds of a feather and all that. Not to imply that all who feel they have been ripped off will act in the same way. Or am I being naive in my dotage in expecting some integrity from people.

yes it did occur to me that dumping them on eBay when he/she knows they don't work is somewhat amoral.... but was more surprised at the price they got for them....

I must admit that the price they got did surprise me as well, unless it is just someone wanting a set to test. Otherwise it seems it is true that there one is born every... Not a surprise really when I have seen people continue to buy fake Panasonic or Samsung 18650 cells off an Amazon listing even though the review section is full of complaints about the fake capacity of the cells in question. Similarly with fake uSD cards and other memory cards.



Oops, posted wrong paragraph, now removed. Not a good day for me so far :) I think I need more coffee to get the morning going properly.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on January 13, 2017, 10:14:11 am

Well, I have also ordered a set of AA Batteroos to do my own testing.
Who knows, may I even make a profit by placing them on ebay Germany, when I am done.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Domagoj T on January 13, 2017, 09:57:24 pm

Quote from: McCarthy on January 12, 2017, 08:50:48 pm

So, I saw that they offer the AA version on their website for sale with them being "in stock" and ordered one set last week to conduct my own testing (for fun).

Guess what: I haven't received any confirmation emails, no order updates, no tracking number and, no answer to my email asking them 2 days ago how long it will take to ship my order. All I have is my PayPal statement showing that they have my money.

If they don't ship and respond, I'll rip them a new one. Taking money, not delivering and not responding is fraud in my book.

Similar thing here as well.
I ordered some AAs three weeks ago from the site directly, the store said it was in stock. Got the payment confirmation email from PayPal, but no shipping confirmation. Two weeks later, I asked them about it and actually got a reply 6 days later saying "We will be shipping out all new orders within 2 weeks".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Howardlong on January 14, 2017, 05:50:56 pm

Mine arrived yesterday, they were shipped about three weeks ago.

Haven't done much with them other than to check they work and see if they fit in an Apple wireless keyboard, which they do, and you can get the batteries out afterwards too. The end cap screw protrudes a milimeter or so out though due to the added cell length. The same applies to the Apple wireless trackpad, although unlike the Apple keyboard, the trackpad is less demanding in quiescent state with cells lasting months.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kilrah on January 14, 2017, 09:36:57 pm

Buying this crap even out of curiosity will build their reputation and justify their investment. Not for me, that would defeat my whole position.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 14, 2017, 11:29:24 pm

Possible a use has been found.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBQhNldCzFw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBQhNldCzFw)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 14, 2017, 11:41:07 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on January 14, 2017, 11:29:24 pm

Possible a use has been found.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBQhNldCzFw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBQhNldCzFw)

Data matters.
Those clocks typically get many YEARS battery life. Let's say 3 years (156 weeks)
It's been going 2 weeks with the Batetriser, that's an extra 1.2% battery life. That's x0.01 extra life. A far cry from the claims of x8.
I'm willing to bet it takes a lot more energy to produce the Batteriser than it does to make a new single AA battery. So environmentally it's a  :--

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 14, 2017, 11:42:28 pm

BTW I finally got my AA Batterisers.
The enthusiasm level to make another video right away is kinda low...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 14, 2017, 11:45:42 pm

Yes we all know it is a big fail, but here is a product where it works, and yes the total extra gain will be small and would never justify the cost, but nevertheless it still works in this application.

Ill even bet that battero adds the video to their pages/youtube

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 15, 2017, 12:23:48 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 14, 2017, 11:42:28 pm

BTW I finally got my AA Batterisers.
The enthusiasm level to make another video right away is kinda low...

And probably not many new insights, it's already busted for all products for which it was tested independently. But a final test with the monkey would be fun.

And would be cool to see your SMU in action to do the characteristics curves for efficiency, input/output voltage curves etc. I know you don't like to write software or setup some complicated test, but some viewers (like me :) ) might be interested how easy (or complicated) it is to control the outputs of it and read the measurements from a PC with a script, in comparison to EEVblog #957. Once you've done this, the experience you gained from it might be useful for other projects as well (uSupply?).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 15, 2017, 12:35:20 am

The issue has never been about whether the Batteriser will work ... it is about whether it will work AS CLAIMED.

Those claims involve two fundamentals: the boost function and the run time.  As inferred by my statement above, there has been no fundamental concern with boost function, so the pass/fail criteria is chiefly going to be run time.

As such, saying "here is a product where it works" says nothing.  It "worked" in the toy trains.  It "worked" in different flashlights.  It "worked" in other "toys".

This clock is no different - and our expectations about the run time are modest.  Certainly they are far less than the Batteriser claims.


I appreciate you make it clear that the payback just isn't going to be there - but I just found the statement "here is a product where it works" somewhat misleading ... and one likely to be taken out of context, especially by pro-Batteriser and Batteriser marketing people.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on January 15, 2017, 12:36:37 am

My clock is fast.   ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 15, 2017, 12:39:34 am

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on January 14, 2017, 11:45:42 pm

Yes we all know it is a big fail, but here is a product where it works, and yes the total extra gain will be small and would never justify the cost, but nevertheless it still works in this application.

Ill even bet that battero adds the video to their pages/youtube

Works? When batteriseroos were clipped onto dead batteries in the train tests and the trains did another 5 minutes or 10 laps did anyone say they worked?

If you clip batteriseroos onto 'dead' batteries you can't loose energy, only the money you spent on them and your time clipping them on and off and changing batteries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on January 15, 2017, 12:43:14 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 14, 2017, 11:42:28 pm

BTW I finally got my AA Batterisers.
The enthusiasm level to make another video right away is kinda low...

I can imagine... But after more than a year it is time to bust this myth... This thread is sooo long. Time to put an end to it. After all this time, they are finally delivering. Bring on the monkey and bust this myth!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 15, 2017, 12:55:44 am

From the commentary:
"I believe this is the intended use of the product so I think if you're trying to use it for something that's a little more complex and has more electronics, it's not going to work. This is a simple electric clock so probably doesn't have much in there."

A "simple electric clock" ... ?

Yeah ... I mean just how much electronics could you possibly fit under that COB blob?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on January 15, 2017, 12:58:51 am

We still haven't seen any oscillographs :) of the input currents. A scope probe over a 0.1R resistor would do to see the shape and peaks of the current.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on January 15, 2017, 01:05:04 am

My god... He's back!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gnoujvMtJM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gnoujvMtJM)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 15, 2017, 01:26:44 am

Quote from: Marcel_X on January 15, 2017, 01:05:04 am

My god... He's back!

He discusses Dave's graph of the train test, starting at minute 5. I don't know, I understand every word he says, but it just doesn't make sense to me. The train is a constant current device? That's clearly wrong. The curve is straight? That's wrong, too, it is clearly a little bit curvy, just use a piece of paper on your TFT screen to verify it. But the main point is that the train doesn't run as long with the sleeve as without the sleeve, nothing to discuss here. And he accuses Dave that there is money behind him, that's silly. Didn't watch the rest, waste of time as always.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 15, 2017, 01:43:45 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 15, 2017, 12:35:20 am

The issue has never been about whether the Batteriser will work ... it is about whether it will work AS CLAIMED.

Those claims involve two fundamentals: the boost function and the run time.  As inferred by my statement above, there has been no fundamental concern with boost function, so the pass/fail criteria is chiefly going to be run time.

As such, saying "here is a product where it works" says nothing.  It "worked" in the toy trains.  It "worked" in different flashlights.  It "worked" in other "toys".

This clock is no different - and our expectations about the run time are modest.  Certainly they are far less than the Batteriser claims.


I appreciate you make it clear that the payback just isn't going to be there - but I just found the statement "here is a product where it works" somewhat misleading ... and one likely to be taken out of context, especially by pro-Batteriser and Batteriser marketing people.

Was just trying to say that they will definitely use it to show skeptics etc that WOW it works
Im all with you on the claims are total bullshit, and more and more tests will show that it will give less runtime and the "gains" like in this clock will be very small that it will not justify the price and as dave pointed out the materials and energy to make the batteriser

Giving a clock extra runtime, even 5% will hardly make a dent in the "wasted energy in battery's that's thrown away", and this clock is a good case of a device that uses very close to all energy in the battery anyway.

If you wanted to really make a difference to the environment then use rechargeable battery's

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 15, 2017, 01:56:40 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 15, 2017, 01:26:44 am

Quote from: Marcel_X on January 15, 2017, 01:05:04 am

My god... He's back!

He discusses Dave's graph of the train test, starting at minute 5. I don't know, I understand every word he says, but it just doesn't make sense to me. The train is a constant current device? That's clearly wrong. The curve is straight? That's wrong, too, it is clearly a little bit curvy, just use a piece of paper on your TFT screen to verify it. But the main point is that the train doesn't run as long with the sleeve as without the sleeve, nothing to discuss here. And he accuses Dave that there is money behind him, that's silly. Didn't watch the rest, waste of time as always.

Couldn't agree more.

His waffle around his "curve is straight" comment would have had me  |O ... but he isn't worth it.

This is clearly someone who enjoys conspiracy theories and lacks technical competence to present legitimate arguments.  I might suggest insecure, too - with an inability to accept criticism, let alone admit he's wrong ... or at least underqualified.

I also didn't finish watching.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 15, 2017, 02:05:18 am

Quote from: Marcel_X on January 15, 2017, 01:05:04 am

My god... He's back!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gnoujvMtJM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gnoujvMtJM)

Jesus i just tried to watch it, didn't finish.... he was talking about moonshine and i think that is enough said, watching that video felt like my IQ was lowering.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 15, 2017, 02:05:45 am

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on January 15, 2017, 01:43:45 am

Was just trying to say that they will definitely use it to show skeptics etc that WOW it works

Agreed.  Sorry if I overreacted.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on January 15, 2017, 02:22:52 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 14, 2017, 11:42:28 pm

BTW I finally got my AA Batterisers.
The enthusiasm level to make another video right away is kinda low...

Grab a couple monkeys and sneak down to the beach.  My guess is they use a lot of power thus it should be quick tests.  Just hope they do not lock you up, thinking you are nuts filming toy monkeys on a beach  ha ha ha

I think it would make a cool video if filmed at their eye level with the sand in the background

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 15, 2017, 02:28:30 am

Tried to watch a bit more...  it was painful.

"The stuff it won't work on is passive load that already has constant current circuitry in it."

 :palm:     :palm:     :palm:     :palm:     :palm:     :palm:   


Also, I noticed he put up some Youtube like/dislike stats - showing Australia on top with 14 dislikes, then Canada with 8, Romania with 7, Sweden with 6, etc., etc.  What I would like to see is what is above Australia in that list.  There are a few countries missing such as Germany and the U.K. - but most obvious was ... the USA.

"The best way to lie is to tell the truth . . . carefully edited truth."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 15, 2017, 02:29:30 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 15, 2017, 01:26:44 am

Didn't watch the rest, waste of time as always.

The man is completely batshit crazy. I posted before https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1106793/#msg1106793 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1106793/#msg1106793) with an example.

What amuses me is the more people that tell him he is wrong and that batteriseroos don't work the more he believes there is a conspiracy against him and it. It is like a perpetual delusion machine :)

15 months ago he said he would do tests on some camera he had that 'ate' batteries as soon as he got some batterisers. Now he has some he says in this video he has got (presumably bought specially) the same crappiest digital camera in the world Vivitar used in the Batteroo video. Why? He already had a camera. It seems he is trying to protect his own delusion by buying something he knows will support it.

His comments on the graph are not so wrong. Where he is very wrong is claiming Batteroo are "not hiding notin" and state it shouldn't be used for constant current applications. Batteroo currently make no mention of such limitations on their web site, the first anyone saw was the sheet of paper delivered with them in the box.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 15, 2017, 02:43:38 am

The most obvious case why the train had such a bad runtime is the current usage vs battery capacity.
Here is a normal duracell graph, and as we can see the capacity goes extra down with 200mA load vs 100mA, and as we know from the efficiency/Voltage in/out tests the current just increases to lower input voltage is, so not only do you have less battery capacity to use just by increasing the current you also have a 10+% loss in the batteriser.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29047266/Duracell%20AA.png)

Dave you should do a battery discharge test again like when you wanted to show how little capacity was left in a battery under 1V, would love to see the graph on the batteriser as this will just confirm why the train did so poorly with the batteriser
So please do a 100mA constant current discharge on a regular battery again with graph and one with the same setup with batteriser

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 15, 2017, 02:45:49 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 15, 2017, 12:23:48 am

And would be cool to see your SMU in action to do the characteristics curves for efficiency, input/output voltage curves etc. I know you don't like to write software or setup some complicated test, but some viewers (like me :) ) might be interested how easy (or complicated) it is to control the outputs of it and read the measurements from a PC with a script, in comparison to EEVblog #957. Once you've done this, the experience you gained from it might be useful for other projects as well (uSupply?).

Sadly you need two SMU's, one for input, one for output.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 15, 2017, 02:51:24 am

Quote from: Brumby on January 15, 2017, 01:56:40 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 15, 2017, 01:26:44 am

Quote from: Marcel_X on January 15, 2017, 01:05:04 am

My god... He's back!

He discusses Dave's graph of the train test, starting at minute 5. I don't know, I understand every word he says, but it just doesn't make sense to me. The train is a constant current device? That's clearly wrong. The curve is straight? That's wrong, too, it is clearly a little bit curvy, just use a piece of paper on your TFT screen to verify it. But the main point is that the train doesn't run as long with the sleeve as without the sleeve, nothing to discuss here. And he accuses Dave that there is money behind him, that's silly. Didn't watch the rest, waste of time as always.

Couldn't agree more.
His waffle around his "curve is straight" comment would have had me  |O ... but he isn't worth it.

Yep, he's not worth the time of day.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JiggyNinja on January 15, 2017, 02:56:46 am

Quote from: Marcel_X on January 15, 2017, 01:05:04 am

My god... He's back!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gnoujvMtJM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gnoujvMtJM)

The ignorant fucker is accusing Dave of dishonesty.

I also checked out his channel page. The first video is some stupid "Do CATS go to Heaven??" shit.

Then I look on the right and see under Related channels:

The Alex Jones Channel.

I don't know how Youtube chooses those things, but somehow it has saw fit to associate this guy with Alex "False Flag" Jones.

The Alex Jones who thinks that Beyonce is creating videos under CIA direction in order to instigate a race war with the police.

The Alex Jones who thinks that Carrie Fisher might have been murdered by people trying to make money off of her book.

THAT Alex fucking Jones.

However they came to be associated in Youtube's eye, I think that tells you everything you could ever want to know (and many things you most probably don't) about Mr. synergy7.

I need to wash my brain out with Big Clive tearing down some more cheap ebay shit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on January 15, 2017, 04:14:30 am

I think the only thing left that's more interesting would be to decap the ICs and see what's inside.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 15, 2017, 04:34:30 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 14, 2017, 11:41:07 pm

Data matters.
Those clocks typically get many YEARS battery life. Let's say 3 years (156 weeks)

I measured one. Bench PSU via uA meter to 15,000uF via 10R to the clock. 15,000uF to average current and 10R to simulate internal resistance of a nearly dead battery. 10R might be a bit over the top but can only err on the conservative side.


Voltage Current uA Power uW
1.5     89     134
1.4     80     112
1.3     73     95
1.2     66     79
1.15    64     74
1.125   62     70


1.125 was the lowest it would keep ticking and shorting the 10R only helped a little.  The cut off is quite high so batteriseroo has some energy to extract maybe 20%. The trouble is I estimate average power drawn from the battery will be 135uW with the batteriseroo and 87uW without which more than wipes out the 20%.

The other problem is batteriseroo sleeves cost $2.5 and decent AA batteries 25 cents so even if the sleeve doubled battery life it would take 60 years to break even.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on January 15, 2017, 05:55:21 am

Quote from: amyk on January 15, 2017, 04:14:30 am

I think the only thing left that's more interesting would be to decap the ICs and see what's inside.

Actually, I'd still be interested in seeing testing on the AA sleeve at higher loads (we really took them to task on the practicality at loads higher than 1A, given that most small boost converters would struggle) to see how they cope, the AAA sleeve did pretty well at 750mA so it'd be interesting to see what the AA one can do.

I'd also be curious about the output ripple, might be fairly decent given the dual-phase converter.

The product may be useless, but it still looks like the chip design team did an impressive job given the constraints  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 15, 2017, 06:25:38 am

I think we are all impressed with the design involved.  Pity the weakness lies with the claims made.

When all is said and done, even if the Batteroo sleeve were to be 100% efficient and "practically perfect in every way", the limiting condition is the battery chemistry.

The Batteroo sleeve never stood a chance.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on January 15, 2017, 07:18:14 am

With the clock demo, I notice the clock is only shown face up or face down, where even a weak battery, that no longer has the energy to lift the second hand up the face against gravity pulling it down, will still have enough energy to turn the hand.

If you want to use the Batterpoo in a clock, at least get a clock with "continuous movement" where the second hand is running at 8Hz, to give the illusion of a smooth sweep. Those clock mechanisms will on average use a battery every 2 months, while a regular clock will go up to 2 years with a standard AA cell.

I have one in my office, and, after the 4th battery in 3 months, I got tired of this continual change, plus it had a timekeeping that depended on state of charge of the battery, so it ran fast with a new cell, but ran slow as the cell went flat. Gained around a minute a day for the first 2 weeks, then fine for a week and then lost 2 minutes a day as the cell aged out, before going dead with a loss of an hour a day for the last 3 days or so. Took a feed from the cordless phone backup battery ( 12V SLA pack, 2 old alarm chargers, one for the battery, the second to give 5V5 to replace the DECT power brick output) and after a bit of trial and error on resistor values for the red led I settled on 6k8, a red led and a used 1500uF 6V3 non totally dead Crapxon (junk pile parts off an old PC power supply near to hand) across the LED as the voltage it gave the best results on. Now it runs on 1V35, and gives near perfect time keeping.

With the Batterpoo you will also need to look at time keeping accuracy, rather pointless to have a clock running with one when it will have a poor accuracy, only showing the right time every few months. At least a dead regular battery has an indication there is a fault, not a clock that runs, but loses time more and more as it goes on.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 15, 2017, 07:38:18 am

Quote from: Hensingler on January 15, 2017, 04:34:30 am

1.125 was the lowest it would keep ticking and shorting the 10R only helped a little.  The cut off is quite high so batteriseroo has some energy to extract maybe 20%. The trouble is I estimate average power drawn from the battery will be 135uW with the batteriseroo and 87uW without which more than wipes out the 20%.

And therein lies the rub almost every time with the Batteriser. It's a product with almost no upside.
This is why I could easily do a "Top 10 ways the Batteriser FAILS" video, and have virtually nothing left over in which it's genuinely useful. You have to find some niche application and apply it in the right way.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on January 15, 2017, 09:48:59 am

Yeah, Dave, one last video, then we need to move on. Batteroo debunking is an addiction  :horse:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on January 15, 2017, 10:06:06 am

Speaking of the future, there's a big announcement for the roorparshow :

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/the-next-season-of-the-roohparshaow-is-coming-soon/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/the-next-season-of-the-roohparshaow-is-coming-soon/)/
 :-DD :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 15, 2017, 03:13:45 pm

Quote from: JiggyNinja on January 15, 2017, 02:56:46 am

Quote from: Marcel_X on January 15, 2017, 01:05:04 am

My god... He's back!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gnoujvMtJM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gnoujvMtJM)

The ignorant fucker is accusing Dave of dishonesty.

I also checked out his channel page. The first video is some stupid "Do CATS go to Heaven??" shit.

Then I look on the right and see under Related channels:

The Alex Jones Channel.

I don't know how Youtube chooses those things, but somehow it has saw fit to associate this guy with Alex "False Flag" Jones.

The Alex Jones who thinks that Beyonce is creating videos under CIA direction in order to instigate a race war with the police.

The Alex Jones who thinks that Carrie Fisher might have been murdered by people trying to make money off of her book.

THAT Alex fucking Jones.

However they came to be associated in Youtube's eye, I think that tells you everything you could ever want to know (and many things you most probably don't) about Mr. synergy7.

I need to wash my brain out with Big Clive tearing down some more cheap ebay shit.

10 battery / person / year? That's virtually nothing! The 3 billions may look enormous, but if that number is correct, just buy a 10 pack and that the number you are going to use in a year. I seriously doubt that with even the ludicrous 80% more power will really change anything. Just looking around me, if I need 10 battery it's because I have 5 devices that use 2 for each, 3 remote control in this room, plus my multimeter, a thermometer, all of them need either 2 AAA or 2 AA. I need these batterie to operate these devices so..

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on January 15, 2017, 03:26:48 pm

Quote from: JiggyNinja on January 15, 2017, 02:56:46 am

I also checked out his channel page. The first video is some stupid "Do CATS go to Heaven??" shit.

Cats don't so much go to Heaven as stand between the Pearly Gates and debate whether to go in or not. When they do decide, five minutes later they turn up again scratching at the Pearly Gates to be opened to be let in/out again. St Peter has learned some very colourful language since God decided that cats were allowed in Heaven...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: quad on January 15, 2017, 03:43:44 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 14, 2017, 11:42:28 pm

BTW I finally got my AA Batterisers.
The enthusiasm level to make another video right away is kinda low...

I'd say hold off and not worry about it right now. This whole thing is about having fun and having a few laughs, and some tangential learning. There's more than enough information warning people about the outrageous claims of Batteriser out there, you'd really need to be actively ignoring search results... any serious investor who doesn't stumble across this thread just isn't trying.

Unless there's any interesting testing methods you can teach us, or other value - entertainment value counts! - I'd say it's job done.

PS: The things I enjoyed recently, along this journey, were the calculator hack and monkey debouncing videos, and the OpenCV counting program by Frank.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 15, 2017, 04:36:55 pm

Quote from: quad on January 15, 2017, 03:43:44 pm

There's more than enough information warning people about the outrageous claims of Batteriser out there, you'd really need to be actively ignoring search results... any serious investor who doesn't stumble across this thread just isn't trying.

Their crappy Vivitar camera video probably isn't bunk. I think it needs to be shown as atypical. I would like to see a similar test on a slightly less crappy camera like

https://www.amazon.com/Kodak-PIXPRO-Friendly-Digital-Optical/dp/B0195XJAZI/ (https://www.amazon.com/Kodak-PIXPRO-Friendly-Digital-Optical/dp/B0195XJAZI/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on January 15, 2017, 06:26:38 pm

My review of the batteroo is up: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Batteroo%20AA%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Batteroo%20AA%20UK.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 15, 2017, 06:58:52 pm

Quote from: HKJ on January 15, 2017, 06:26:38 pm

My review of the batteroo is up: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Batteroo%20AA%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Batteroo%20AA%20UK.html)

As always awesome work, now i have the graph i was looking for, and as expected the falloff is VERY steep with the batteriser

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Zbig on January 16, 2017, 11:10:10 am

Quote from: SeanB on January 15, 2017, 07:18:14 am

If you want to use the Batterpoo in a clock, at least get a clock with "continuous movement" where the second hand is running at 8Hz, to give the illusion of a smooth sweep. Those clock mechanisms will on average use a battery every 2 months, while a regular clock will go up to 2 years with a standard AA cell.

I have one in my office, and, after the 4th battery in 3 months, I got tired of this continual change, plus it had a timekeeping that depended on state of charge of the battery, so it ran fast with a new cell, but ran slow as the cell went flat. Gained around a minute a day for the first 2 weeks, then fine for a week and then lost 2 minutes a day as the cell aged out, before going dead with a loss of an hour a day for the last 3 days or so.[..]

They're not all like that, apparently. I have a continuous movement, DCF77-synced clock. It's still going strong on its first alkaline battery since 10 months now and it has to haul over 15 cm long hands around.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 16, 2017, 05:48:41 pm

Looking forward for the low drain test to complete, if it fails here as well (less then 11-14 days) then it will be VERY hard to find any where the batteriser will help you get more out of your batteries.
Well unless you have some crappy camera that cuts off at 1.2/1.3V
(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/Batteries2013Primary/Batteroo%20AA/Discharge%20Batteroo%20AA%200%2c01A.png)

HKJ please post an update when it is done :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on January 16, 2017, 05:56:49 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on January 16, 2017, 05:48:41 pm

HKJ please post an update when it is done :)

I will, it has reached 9 days now and is between 1.3 and 1.4V.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 16, 2017, 06:01:23 pm

Well going by this graph:
(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/Batteries2013Primary/Batteroo%20AA/Batteroo%20AA-Capacity.png)
It looks like it will crap out fast when it hits 1.3V when you look at the 0.1A test

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on January 16, 2017, 06:07:59 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on January 16, 2017, 06:01:23 pm

It looks like it will crap out fast when it hits 1.3V when you look at the 0.1A test

It looks like the cell has about the same curve for 0.1A and 0.01A. I do not have time to update it tomorrow, if it finish there, it will be at least 48 hours before I can update with the final curve.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on January 16, 2017, 06:47:53 pm

That chart above is pure justice.
Over a year ago, Boob originally claimed that battery powered devices cut out at 1.3v or so.
Here we see that the Batteriser/oo itself cuts out at approximately 1.3v.

Edit: My bad. As pointed out, it is the output voltage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: twice11 on January 16, 2017, 07:04:32 pm

Quote from: Mr.B on January 16, 2017, 06:47:53 pm

That chart above is pure irony justice.
Over a year ago, Boob originally claimed that battery powered devices cut out at 1.3v or so.
Here we see that the Batteriser/oo itself craps cuts out at approximately 1.3v.

 :-DD

Wait a second. That graph shows the output voltage of the batteriser. The input voltage is below 1.1V at that point. So the batteriser in fact helps to keep devices that cut out at 1.3v or so happy as long as possible.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 16, 2017, 07:50:56 pm

Quote from: twice11 on January 16, 2017, 07:04:32 pm

Wait a second. That graph shows the output voltage of the batteriser. The input voltage is below 1.1V at that point. So the batteriser in fact helps to keep devices that cut out at 1.3v or so happy as long as possible.

Right, this is the only useful application for the sleeve. When you carefully select the most crappiest device you can find, like the camera in the video from Batteroo, you might get similar results like they measured, 3.5x times longer for the camera. This is not 8x, but still pretty impressive, if it is true. But as we've seen with the Garmin GPS test, their testing methods might have some VW diesel car qualities.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on January 16, 2017, 11:26:03 pm

 Who was the bloke on here who had that exact same Garmin GPS unit?  Have any Batterooiserer sleeves found their way to him yet...?   :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on January 16, 2017, 11:29:10 pm

5ky
He has not been here for just over a year unfortunately.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on January 17, 2017, 12:00:01 am

Yes, but he mentioned in his videos that he backed the project in order to get some sleeves for testing. So he's probably received the sleeves by now. I hope he's still around, and does an update. He has good equipment and test methods...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hugoneus on January 17, 2017, 12:10:30 am

Hi everyone,

I know these sleeves are in short supply, however if someone wants to send me one, I can perform multi-dimensional sweep on them because I have 4 SMUs. I can sweep the input/output voltage and current as well as pulse tests. I can also do tests as a function of temperature.

If you ever watched my review videos of the Keithley SMUs, I show experiments where I programm the SMUs to perform non-linear IV characteristics which may be interesting to try.

However I do feel that aside from satisfying curiosity, no test anymore will impact anything. This product has been busted for its insane claims already.

Cheers,

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Someone on January 17, 2017, 12:55:43 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 15, 2017, 12:23:48 am

And would be cool to see your SMU in action to do the characteristics curves for efficiency, input/output voltage curves etc. I know you don't like to write software or setup some complicated test, but some viewers (like me :) ) might be interested how easy (or complicated) it is to control the outputs of it and read the measurements from a PC with a script, in comparison to EEVblog #957. Once you've done this, the experience you gained from it might be useful for other projects as well (uSupply?).

Its relatively easy to do when you have a multichannel SMU, there are some Keysight videos here:
https://youtu.be/Q4cX1FUe224
https://youtu.be/BKA00RxMCBM
Automating multiple operating points would be possible but its often quicker to put a human in the loop for the slower iterations. For other Agilent/Keysight SMUs similarly quick sweeps for these tasks can be done with the simpler Quick IV measurement software, but I'm unfamiliar with other offerings.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 17, 2017, 01:41:02 am

Quote from: Someone on January 17, 2017, 12:55:43 am

Its relatively easy to do when you have a multichannel SMU, there are some Keysight videos here:

Thanks, I didn't expect that Keysight manufactures a dedicated instrument like the N6705B just for this type of applications. But looks like there is some demand for it. I guess if you develop or have to test lots of power supplies, it doesn't matter that it costs $7,765 (at Newark).

But for this price I would have expected better software. As you mentioned, looks like it doesn't measure multiple operating points, just one sweep for one current, or it might be complicated to automate it with the software. Even the output power is displayed inverted and the graph doesn't look very nice, missing labels, and ticks and values on the axis.

@Hugoneus: I just subscribed your Youtube channel, your TSP #36 video is really interesting and informative. Would like to see how you can script your two Keithley 2450 SMUs that you have. The graphical flow diagram interface looks a bit cumbersome, I would be faster writing some lines of code, but maybe it is useful. I hope someone sends you some Batteroo sleeves.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hugoneus on January 17, 2017, 05:08:21 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 17, 2017, 01:41:02 am

@Hugoneus: I just subscribed your Youtube channel, your TSP #36 video is really interesting and informative. Would like to see how you can script your two Keithley 2450 SMUs that you have. The graphical flow diagram interface looks a bit cumbersome, I would be faster writing some lines of code, but maybe it is useful. I hope someone sends you some Batteroo sleeves.

Thanks!

I also have the review of the 2460 on my channel, there you can see some more multi dimensional sweeps.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Someone on January 17, 2017, 06:50:32 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 17, 2017, 01:41:02 am

Quote from: Someone on January 17, 2017, 12:55:43 am

Its relatively easy to do when you have a multichannel SMU, there are some Keysight videos here:

Thanks, I didn't expect that Keysight manufactures a dedicated instrument like the N6705B just for this type of applications. But looks like there is some demand for it. I guess if you develop or have to test lots of power supplies, it doesn't matter that it costs $7,765 (at Newark).

But for this price I would have expected better software. As you mentioned, looks like it doesn't measure multiple operating points, just one sweep for one current, or it might be complicated to automate it with the software. Even the output power is displayed inverted and the graph doesn't look very nice, missing labels, and ticks and values on the axis.

Thats just the base price for the chassis, you add some channels the price runs away quickly especially with the 2 and 4 quadrant SMU type modules. Its often cheaper to buy a "regular" SMU. The free software gets the job done, its good for investigation work but if you need flexibility then you quickly end up doing some sort of coding. Keysight offer BenchVue with the paid Test Flow option as their software for automation:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/t57461/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/t57461/)
But it has an ongoing cost to maintain a license, unlike the alternatives. I'm happy enough with the free tools and already offered to do testing of the batteriser batteroo sleeve if anyone was interested in what can be done with the "pro" tools.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 17, 2017, 12:53:06 pm

Quote from: Someone on January 17, 2017, 06:50:32 am

Keysight offer BenchVue with the paid Test Flow option as their software for automation:

I think I tested this software some time ago with my oscilloscope. IIRC it was a big bloated software package, and somehow slowed down the PC a lot.

I think open source software is perfect for automation. If you don't know it already, there is an interesting project where you can use Python scripts to control and read your instruments, see here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/raspberry-pi23-logging-platform-for-voltnuts/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/raspberry-pi23-logging-platform-for-voltnuts/)

All you need for Linux is an USB GPIB interface, and for more modern instruments just a USB connection. For example most Keysight instruments uses USBTMC, which is supported by a Python library, so it should work even on Windows, and with a Linux kernel module. There are already an impressive list of examples.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on January 18, 2017, 07:10:32 pm

My 10mA test is finished, the sleeve lasted for 10½ day. The first 10 day the voltage was above 1.3V, the last ½ day it dropped below 1.1V before the sleeve quit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 18, 2017, 08:46:16 pm

Quote from: HKJ on January 18, 2017, 07:10:32 pm

My 10mA test is finished, the sleeve lasted for 10½ day. The first 10 day the voltage was above 1.3V, the last ½ day it dropped below 1.1V before the sleeve quit.

Well that's the last fail for the batteriser, it can't even go as long as without the batteriser and that is compared to a cutoff of 1.1V (without) and some devices even work down to 0.9V, and that just mean a bigger fail as you posted under the graph that it got 14 days down to 0.8V without the batteriser.  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on January 18, 2017, 10:41:04 pm

More proof that Batteroo significantly extends battery life.... ;)

https://youtu.be/x62rhxWfmgk

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on January 18, 2017, 10:53:42 pm

Quote from: Blocco on January 18, 2017, 10:41:04 pm

More proof that Batteroo significantly extends battery life.... ;)

More proof that these idiots need to focus on the truth and stop spinning bullshit.... ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on January 18, 2017, 11:16:18 pm

Quote from: Blocco on January 18, 2017, 10:41:04 pm

More proof that Batteroo significantly extends battery life.... ;)

I have to say, Batteroo, after learning and getting tips from this blog, have finally done a video demo test that covers off some of the very basic requirements. For instance they're comparing like for like, they show the brand new cells being taken out of the pack, they show the equipment and the timer, and it's in one take, and results are shown in a clear chart. Props to them for that. Pity they're still using that awful oleaginous-voiced woman to do the narration. And they stopped the test when the non-batteroo'd torch was still going, and still probably had hours of dim glow left in it.
And yes, as expected (and not denied by anyone), their product works as a boost converter (albeit one which can't maintain a steady fixed output voltage), and they've chosen the one-in-a-million device where using the Batteroo is maybe valid: A dumb, old-fashioned incandescent torch with no built-in boost conversion which runs on a pair of Alkaline D cells. Basically a switch and a bulb in a can.

Trouble is, the world has moved on. No one I know still uses crappy old incan torches anymore (even my parents who are in their 70's and aren't "techie" at all). Nowadays, everyone uses LED torches with fantasic buck/boost converters built in, multiple modes, far more efficiency and brightness, and much more robust than the old incan torches like they used to use in the WWI/WWII era.

Again; of course Batteroo works in this ultra-limited case scenario, but it's solving a problem which simply doesn't exist in 2017.

But again, props to them for doing a much better video test demo than they previously seemed capable of.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 18, 2017, 11:19:00 pm

Quote from: Blocco on January 18, 2017, 10:41:04 pm

More proof that Batteroo significantly extends battery life.... ;)

https://youtu.be/x62rhxWfmgk

Starting at 3:10 it's bullshit that you'd throw away the batteries when you reach 50% brightness. You likely wouldn't even be aware that it's dropped to 50% brightness.
They are absolutely desperate to get anything to back up their "times X" claim.
They also won't tell you how long the non-Batteriser gives out usable light after the Batteriser dies.
They also won't mention how crap a voltage regulator the Batteriser is, why isn't it a constant brightness the whole time?
They also won't tell you what effect the Batteriser has on bulb life.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on January 18, 2017, 11:20:31 pm

Quote from: samgab on January 18, 2017, 11:16:18 pm

But again, props to them for doing a much better video test demo than they previously seemed capable of.

I agree they have found two products that work. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 18, 2017, 11:20:58 pm

Quote from: samgab on January 18, 2017, 11:16:18 pm

I have to say, Batteroo, after learning and getting tips from this blog, have finally done a video demo test that covers off some of the very basic requirements. For instance they're comparing like for like, they show the brand new cells being taken out of the pack, they show the equipment and the timer, and it's in one take, and results are shown in a clear chart. Props to them for that. Pity they're still using that awful oleaginous-voiced woman to do the narration. And they stopped the test when the non-batteroo'd torch was still going, and still probably had hours of dim glow left in it.
And yes, as expected (and not denied by anyone), their product works as a boost converter (albeit one which can't maintain a steady fixed output voltage), and they've chosen the one-in-a-million device where using the Batteroo is maybe valid: A dumb, old-fashioned incandescent torch with no built-in boost conversion which runs on a pair of Alkaline D cells. Basically a switch and a bulb in a can.

Trouble is, the world has moved on. No one I know still uses crappy old incan torches anymore (even my parents who are in their 70's and aren't "techie" at all). Nowadays, everyone uses LED torches with fantasic buck/boost converters built in, multiple modes, far more efficiency and brightness, and much more robust than the old incan torches like they used to use in the WWI/WWII era.

Again; of course Batteroo works in this ultra-limited case scenario, but it's solving a problem which simply doesn't exist in 2017.

But again, props to them for doing a much better video test demo than they previously seemed capable of.

Yep, they went to a LOT of trouble to do this test and it's the best they can come up with.
Maybe I should get myself that Garmin GPS now that I have the AA Batteriser?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 18, 2017, 11:22:02 pm

Quote from: HKJ on January 18, 2017, 07:10:32 pm

My 10mA test is finished, the sleeve lasted for 10½ day. The first 10 day the voltage was above 1.3V, the last ½ day it dropped below 1.1V before the sleeve quit.

Can you post the data/graph please?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on January 18, 2017, 11:31:08 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 18, 2017, 11:22:02 pm

Quote from: HKJ on January 18, 2017, 07:10:32 pm

My 10mA test is finished, the sleeve lasted for 10½ day. The first 10 day the voltage was above 1.3V, the last ½ day it dropped below 1.1V before the sleeve quit.

Can you post the data/graph please?

In case HKJ isn't online at the moment:
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Batteroo%20AA%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Batteroo%20AA%20UK.html)

(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/Batteries2013Primary/Batteroo%20AA/Discharge%20Batteroo%20AA%200%2c01A.png)

Quote

"A fairly low current test, the Duracell without sleeve can run for 11 days down to 1.1V and for 14 days down to 0.7V.
With the sleeve the runtime is 10½ day down to 1.2V and a few hours more to 1.1V and 0.7V.
From my logfile I can see that the sleeve deliver a total of 3.67Wh, without the sleeve I got 3.02Wh to 1.2V, 3.46Wh to 1.1V and 4.15Wh to 0.7V (These two batteries are not from the same pack, i.e. the comparison is not completely valid).
In this case it looks like the sleeve delivers slightly more energy to device that only work down to 1.1V, but not anywhere 8 times or even 2 times."

and:
(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/Batteries2013Primary/Duracell%20Plus%20Power%20AA/Discharge%20Duracell%20Plus%20Power%20AA%200,01A.png)
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Duracell%20Ultra%20Power%20AA%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Duracell%20Ultra%20Power%20AA%20UK.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on January 19, 2017, 12:31:55 am

Quote from: Blocco on January 18, 2017, 10:41:04 pm

More proof that Batteroo significantly extends battery life.... ;)

Is it me, or does it look like the torch with the batteroo is focused in more of a spot on the lux sensor, versus more of a flood on the other torch.
Visible from about 1:18 to 1:27 where he is fiddling with the torch trying to get the spot centered on the lux sensor.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on January 19, 2017, 12:42:18 am

Quote from: Mr.B on January 19, 2017, 12:31:55 am

Quote from: Blocco on January 18, 2017, 10:41:04 pm

More proof that Batteroo significantly extends battery life.... ;)

Is it me, or does it look like the torch with the batteroo is focused in more of a spot on the lux sensor, versus more of a flood on the other torch.
Visible from about 1:18 to 1:27 where he is fiddling with the torch trying to get the spot centered on the lux sensor.

It seemed that way to me, but to be fair, he zeroed both the light meters before the start of the test and they were both reading 189 or whatever it was, the same reading at the start of the test, so I don't think it would be fair to cry foul over that detail. They both started from an equal measurement and went from there.

These are crappy budget torches with crappy reflectors, so they won't have a perfect beam pattern.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on January 19, 2017, 12:50:55 am

You are right on the lux reading at the start.
However, given the companies history, I was suspicious of the two apparently different beam patterns.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on January 19, 2017, 01:33:41 am

Given their history - I'm still calling foul. I wouldn't put it past them to modify one of the torches. A REAL test is to then SWAP the battery packs and run it again, touching nothing else.
With the wide beam, the intensity pattern is also quite wide, and most likely using a heck of a lot more energy. They should have added power measuring to back up the visuals.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 19, 2017, 02:19:11 am

Quote from: Mr.B on January 19, 2017, 12:31:55 am

Quote from: Blocco on January 18, 2017, 10:41:04 pm

More proof that Batteroo significantly extends battery life.... ;)

Is it me, or does it look like the torch with the batteroo is focused in more of a spot on the lux sensor, versus more of a flood on the other torch.
Visible from about 1:18 to 1:27 where he is fiddling with the torch trying to get the spot centered on the lux sensor.

You are correct, but the question then is - why are the starting lux readings the same?  I was also wondering about ambient light - but that seems to be not a factor, as the meters both started off at 000 at turn-on.

I would like to see that test repeated by keeping the rigging absolutely unchanged and swapping the Batteroo sleeves across the the left hand torch.  However, being so loosely set up, any handling for changing the batteries is going to alter the geometry.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 19, 2017, 02:19:31 am

Quote from: samgab on January 18, 2017, 11:31:08 pm

In case HKJ isn't online at the moment:
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Batteroo%20AA%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Batteroo%20AA%20UK.html)

(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/Batteries2013Primary/Batteroo%20AA/Discharge%20Batteroo%20AA%200%2c01A.png)

So this means that the problem with the battery gauge on products just going from 100% to off instantly is solved?
If so, why aren't Batteroo promoting this feature of the output voltage dropping?
On the other hand, isn't this a BAD thing from Batteroo's point of view, because they have been screaming that products drop out out low voltages like 1.3V etc, yet here is the Batteriser output 1.3V, and doing so at a low current?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 19, 2017, 02:22:36 am

I would say it comes down to credibility and the best marketing leverage.

They are all about extended life, so that's where they will want to keep the focus - and, as far as I am aware, they have never really taken up interest in battery level metering at all.


Don't expect any comment on that subject - unless they come up with an angle that works for them.  That is, which doesn't impact the "extended life" perception.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 19, 2017, 04:42:28 am

Quote from: Blocco on January 18, 2017, 10:41:04 pm

More proof that Batteroo significantly extends battery life.... ;)

https://youtu.be/x62rhxWfmgk (https://youtu.be/x62rhxWfmgk)

I don't know, the flashlight with the Batteroo sleeve looks brighter from the beginning. Let's do some forensics :) I downloaded the video with this online tool:

https://www.onlinevideoconverter.com (https://www.onlinevideoconverter.com)

Then I opened it in Apple Quicktime, which is a nice program to do a frame-by-frame analysis: with left cursor key you can go one frame back and right cursor key one frame forward. In the left bottom corner you can switch between time and frame display. You can see that he has a hard time to move the beam of the right lamp with the sleeve so that it results in the same intensity as the left lamp. Max intensity without the sleeve is 299 lux:

(http://i.imgur.com/pzrYVae.jpg)

And on the right side it is goes up to 456 lux, if I didn't miss a frame:

(http://i.imgur.com/LXlrahg.jpg)

Could be because of the crappy reflector in the lamp that there are brighter spots, but for me it looks like the total light output (lumen) of the right lamp is higher, so the flashlight without the sleeve might use partially discharged batteries (at 1:14 in the video, frame 2226, the person was not in the video, they could have just turned on the lamp without the sleeves for some time). You really should not measure lux at a small point, but the lumen of the lamps, which might be more difficult.

But even if they didn't manipulate it, it doesn't look that much worse in the end without the sleeve, if you ignore the numbers in the lux meters and just look at the image:

(http://i.imgur.com/2dZQVa4.jpg)

They don't tell the model and brand of the flashlights, which would be nice to verify the results.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on January 19, 2017, 05:41:28 am

As I said before, given the companies history, I am suspicious of the accuracy/honesty of that video.
There are so many elements that could be manipulated.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on January 19, 2017, 05:56:29 am

Quote from: Mr.B on January 19, 2017, 05:41:28 am

As I said before, given the companies history, I am suspicious of the accuracy/honesty of that video.
There are so many elements that could be manipulated.

My feeling is that the only way to debunk them is for someone to repeat their tests and no one has done that yet  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 19, 2017, 05:59:52 am

Quote from: Mr.B on January 19, 2017, 05:41:28 am

As I said before, given the companies history, I am suspicious of the accuracy/honesty of that video.
There are so many elements that could be manipulated.

That's why I suggested a re-test with the sleeves swapped across and the geometry unchanged (by even a micrometre).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on January 19, 2017, 07:05:22 am

Why the tinfoil hats, people? The sleeves performed exactly as expected. The outcome is exactly what we'd expect to see, showing a boost in voltage, and a slower decline in voltage, then a sudden dropout at the end, while the bare Alkaline trailed down in a more gentle curve. They don't need to resort to any fakery to get this result. It's pretty much the same curves we already saw in the AA and AAA independant tests.
Incidentally, the D cell batteroos probably have a little more space for a larger inductor etc. I haven't seen anyone say they've received D sized batteroos yet though.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 19, 2017, 07:27:53 am

Quote from: samgab on January 19, 2017, 07:05:22 am

Why the tinfoil hats, people? The sleeves performed exactly as expected. The outcome is exactly what we'd expect to see, showing a boost in voltage, and a slower decline in voltage, then a sudden dropout at the end, while the bare Alkaline trailed down in a more gentle curve. They don't need to resort to any fakery to get this result. It's pretty much the same curves we already saw in the AA and AAA independant tests.

The problem is that they claim a 5.5x improvement in their video, by arbitrary choosing 50% lux and carefully positioning the beams etc., where you can see clearly at the end of the video that the light output of the flashlight without the Batteroo sleeve doesn't look that much worse than the other. So it has not much practical value for the user, and in fact the flashlight without the sleeve might still be used a long time after the one with the sleeve dies, as Dave already mentioned. But the way they filmed, measured and presented it in the video suggests a massive improvement with the sleeve, which is not true.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PeterL on January 19, 2017, 09:59:14 am

Quote from: Blocco on January 18, 2017, 10:41:04 pm

More proof that Batteroo significantly extends battery life.... ;)

https://youtu.be/x62rhxWfmgk

If you care about battery life in a flash light, wouldn't the first choice be to ditch the incandescent bulb and go for a proper LED flash light?
This is a bit like overclocking a 20 year old PC.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 19, 2017, 10:00:24 am

Quote from: samgab on January 19, 2017, 07:05:22 am

Why the tinfoil hats, people? The sleeves performed exactly as expected. The outcome is exactly what we'd expect to see, showing a boost in voltage, and a slower decline in voltage, then a sudden dropout at the end, while the bare Alkaline trailed down in a more gentle curve. They don't need to resort to any fakery to get this result. It's pretty much the same curves we already saw in the AA and AAA independant tests.

We expected a completely flat output voltage response. 1.5V until it suddenly dies. It does not display that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 19, 2017, 12:55:24 pm

Quote from: samgab on January 19, 2017, 07:05:22 am

Why the tinfoil hats, people? The sleeves performed exactly as expected. The outcome is exactly what we'd expect to see, showing a boost in voltage, and a slower decline in voltage, then a sudden dropout at the end, while the bare Alkaline trailed down in a more gentle curve.

True. The problem is that they drew lines down to the horizontal axis at the point where Batteriser looks best and claimed "5.5x battery life".

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=286095;image)

Joe public will watch this video all wide-eyed because he wants to believe.

Pointing out:
a) The error in the math
b) The fact that nobody who cares about battery life or brightness would be using an incandescent torch
c) If we put in two modern LED flashlights the Batteriser would lose out BADLY in both brightness and lifetime.
d) etc.
will be a long and painful process. Again.

The only bright side to that video is that the woman's voice is so awful it will make people feel slightly depressed after watching it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on January 19, 2017, 01:00:38 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 19, 2017, 12:55:24 pm

Quote from: samgab on January 19, 2017, 07:05:22 am

Why the tinfoil hats, people? The sleeves performed exactly as expected. The outcome is exactly what we'd expect to see, showing a boost in voltage, and a slower decline in voltage, then a sudden dropout at the end, while the bare Alkaline trailed down in a more gentle curve.

True. The problem is that they drew lines down to the horizontal axis at the point where Batteriser looked best and claimed "5.5x battery life".

I commend Batteroo on managing to find a product and test procedure that really makes the Batteroo sleeve shine. Not an easy task!  :clap:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 19, 2017, 01:11:40 pm

Quote from: janekm on January 19, 2017, 01:00:38 pm

I commend Batteroo on managing to find a product and test procedure that really makes the Batteroo sleeve shine. Not an easy task!  :clap:

Yep, anybody who thinks they're just deluded about their product or aren't knowingly selling snake oil isn't paying attention. They know exactly what they're doing. They've made a device which alters a battery's output curves and are now busy cherry picking devices where it looks like they improved things.

The truth is that these devices will be 1 in 100, that 99% of devices will perform much worse.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: wikktor on January 19, 2017, 02:31:51 pm

Quote from: PeterL on January 19, 2017, 09:59:14 am

If you care about battery life in a flash light, wouldn't the first choice be to ditch the incandescent bulb and go for a proper LED flash light?
This is a bit like overclocking a 20 year old PC.

Yes - this is product to improve a crappy product performance...
They didn't even show name of flashlight. I would like to compare it with my 10$ convoy s2+...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on January 19, 2017, 06:03:18 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 19, 2017, 07:27:53 am

The problem is that they claim a 5.5x improvement in their video, by arbitrary choosing 50% lux and carefully positioning the beams etc.,

Well of course...they are going to cherry pick devices to test and make up whatever rules they decide to show their product in the most favorable light.

Why is this surprising?  Do you guys believe everything you see in other advertising?

Sure, on the bell curve of inflated claims this is quite a ways out there, but it's not like I would expect them to show something that only showed minimal or no benefit (even though I'm sure their "labs" are littered with tests that didn't perform adequately and were rejected.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 19, 2017, 07:24:00 pm

Quote from: lpickup on January 19, 2017, 06:03:18 pm

Why is this surprising?  Do you guys believe everything you see in other advertising?

There's actually laws against misleading advertising, eg. you can't advertise cars that do "up to 1000mpg!"

I doubt anybody in the government cares about Batteroo's claims but I hope there's no big retailer stupid enough to sign a deal based on this video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on January 19, 2017, 08:32:05 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 19, 2017, 07:24:00 pm

but I hope there's no big retailer stupid enough to sign a deal based on this video.

Big retailers basically don't sign risky deals, especially with newcomers.  They just don't have to.  All risk would be on the supplier.  This means for Batteroo to get these into someplace like Walmart, they would often be required to supply large quantities of product up front, it would be supplied on consignment, payment terms for any sales would be 90 days or more, they'd be taking a decent percentage of the profit, and the retailer could ship back any unsold or returned stock at any time.  I talked about this in one of the other related threads.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on January 19, 2017, 08:41:50 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 19, 2017, 07:24:00 pm

There's actually laws against misleading advertising, eg. you can't advertise cars that do "up to 1000mpg!"

I doubt anybody in the government cares about Batteroo's claims but I hope there's no big retailer stupid enough to sign a deal based on this video.

When it comes to fuel economy in automobiles, that is a highly regulated industry.  Not only can they not make such a claim, even if they were able to rig a test that shows that they got that number (like going down a ridiculously huge hill), they have to follow a very closely prescribed test procedure to back up that claim.  And when they don't and try to cheat (VW), they get in huge trouble.

But there is nothing stopping more run of the mill products from making some pretty outrageous claims.  And I'm not just talking about the infomercials you tend to see in overnight programming.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 19, 2017, 10:33:11 pm

Quote from: Kean on January 19, 2017, 08:32:05 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 19, 2017, 07:24:00 pm

but I hope there's no big retailer stupid enough to sign a deal based on this video.

Big retailers basically don't sign risky deals, especially with newcomers.  They just don't have to.  All risk would be on the supplier.  This means for Batteroo to get these into someplace like Walmart, they would often be required to supply large quantities of product up front, it would be supplied on consignment, payment terms for any sales would be 90 days or more, they'd be taking a decent percentage of the profit, and the retailer could ship back any unsold or returned stock at any time.  I talked about this in one of the other related threads.

Why do you think they have on their board the former CEO of K-Mart (he's now jumped ship it seems). And a guy from ""big box" computer and electronics retailer CompUSA and auto parts retailer CSK Auto, small box retailer Radio Shack and several international business conglomerates"
I thought there was another one too at one point?  :-//
They want to go in the back door.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on January 19, 2017, 11:28:58 pm

I'm only getting 4 results with batteroo or @batteroo - it was lots earlier.  :-//

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&q=%40batteroo&src=typd
Nothing came up for that search, which is a little weird. Maybe check what you searched for and try again.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on January 19, 2017, 11:34:04 pm

Quote from: StillTrying on January 19, 2017, 11:28:58 pm

I'm only getting 4 results.  :-//

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&q=%40batteroo&src=typd
Nothing came up for that search, which is a little weird. Maybe check what you searched for and try again.

Their Twitter account is actually @GoBatteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 19, 2017, 11:42:01 pm

Quote from: StillTrying on January 19, 2017, 11:28:58 pm

I'm only getting 4 results with batteroo or @batteroo - it was lots earlier.  :-//

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&q=%40batteroo&src=typd
Nothing came up for that search, which is a little weird. Maybe check what you searched for and try again.

Here you go:

https://twitter.com/search?q=gobatteroo

There are some nice images of broken Batteroo sleeves :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on January 19, 2017, 11:49:30 pm

Here you go:
https://twitter.com/search?q=gobatteroo

Clicking on LATEST is till acting strange for me, often giving just a couple of results, must be an interweb network thing :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on January 19, 2017, 11:59:04 pm

Quote from: StillTrying on January 19, 2017, 11:49:30 pm

Clicking on LATEST is till acting strange for me, often giving just a couple of results, must be an interweb network thing :-//

That's just modern (distributed/no-sql) databases for you

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JiggyNinja on January 22, 2017, 03:08:19 am

Quote from: lpickup on January 19, 2017, 06:03:18 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 19, 2017, 07:27:53 am

The problem is that they claim a 5.5x improvement in their video, by arbitrary choosing 50% lux and carefully positioning the beams etc.,

Well of course...they are going to cherry pick devices to test and make up whatever rules they decide to show their product in the most favorable light.

Why is this surprising?  Do you guys believe everything you see in other advertising?

Sure, on the bell curve of inflated claims this is quite a ways out there, but it's not like I would expect them to show something that only showed minimal or no benefit (even though I'm sure their "labs" are littered with tests that didn't perform adequately and were rejected.

Because there is a difference between picking the best test cases for a demo and trying to polish a turd like Batteroo is doing. They are LONG past the point where their bullshit and deception is inexcusable. The sleeve is a dud on basically every single metric with a large range of products, and everyone who actually knew shit predicted that long before it went on sale. It is exactly what was predicted.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JiggyNinja on January 22, 2017, 03:20:03 am

Quote from: lpickup on January 19, 2017, 06:03:18 pm

Why is this surprising?  Do you guys believe everything you see in other advertising?

Also, I REFUSE to consider the status quo of bullshit slinging and misinformation to be considered acceptable. Portions of this country are so deluded that they have a strong desire to have the government repeal Obamacare but keep the Affordable Care Act in place (THEY'RE THE SAME FUCKING LAW!), or will send a letter to the president saying: "I don’t want government-run health care. I don’t want socialized medicine. And don’t touch my Medicare." (Medicare is a government program).

The US right now and over the past year is a perfect example of what happens when that kind of shit is allowed and a "post-truth" society is created.We're going to get a hard and painful lesson on the consequences of that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 22, 2017, 06:39:40 am

The usual result of using the Batteroo if you don't "believe"

(http://i.imgur.com/FAnyn3B.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 22, 2017, 06:41:41 am

And the usual physical result:
(http://i.imgur.com/nQusr7T.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 22, 2017, 08:38:02 pm

They found another special camera
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEILlZYM4HQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEILlZYM4HQ)


Edit:
Lots of complaints about battery life
https://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/B00CD9JNDQ/ref=acr_dpx_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star&reviewerType=avp_only_reviews&showViewpoints=0 (https://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/B00CD9JNDQ/ref=acr_dpx_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star&reviewerType=avp_only_reviews&showViewpoints=0)

found on walmart customer reviews:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29047266/Sk%C3%A6rmbillede%20p%C3%A5%202017-01-22%2021-42-08.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kalvin on January 22, 2017, 08:53:55 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 19, 2017, 12:55:24 pm

Quote from: samgab on January 19, 2017, 07:05:22 am

Why the tinfoil hats, people? The sleeves performed exactly as expected. The outcome is exactly what we'd expect to see, showing a boost in voltage, and a slower decline in voltage, then a sudden dropout at the end, while the bare Alkaline trailed down in a more gentle curve.

True. The problem is that they drew lines down to the horizontal axis at the point where Batteriser looks best and claimed "5.5x battery life".

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=286095;image)

Joe public will watch this video all wide-eyed because he wants to believe.

Pointing out:
a) The error in the math
b) The fact that nobody who cares about battery life or brightness would be using an incandescent torch
c) If we put in two modern LED flashlights the Batteriser would lose out BADLY in both brightness and lifetime.
d) etc.
will be a long and painful process. Again.

The only bright side to that video is that the woman's voice is so awful it will make people feel slightly depressed after watching it.

Human eye's perception is logarithmic, not linear. So the Batteroo's claims about 5.5x longer doesn't really hold here due to the human physiology. Yes, the flashlight without the Batteriser may be somewhat dimmer, but even a dimmer flashlight will outperform a dead flashlight.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 22, 2017, 08:54:47 pm

And again they tested to separate cameras, yes same brand/model, but can have slight differences that will favor one better, only way to do it is like dave's train test

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 22, 2017, 09:16:52 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on January 22, 2017, 08:38:02 pm

They found another special camera
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEILlZYM4HQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEILlZYM4HQ)

Ok, it works with a few products with crap dropout voltage, no one doubt this, but this happens when you use the sleeves :-DD

(http://i.imgur.com/yu2FKsr.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on January 22, 2017, 10:38:23 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on January 22, 2017, 08:38:02 pm

They found another special camera
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEILlZYM4HQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEILlZYM4HQ)


Edit:
Lots of complaints about battery life
https://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/B00CD9JNDQ/ref=acr_dpx_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star&reviewerType=avp_only_reviews&showViewpoints=0 (https://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/B00CD9JNDQ/ref=acr_dpx_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star&reviewerType=avp_only_reviews&showViewpoints=0)

found on walmart customer reviews:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29047266/Sk%C3%A6rmbillede%20p%C3%A5%202017-01-22%2021-42-08.png)

Pretty okay test, not too bad, except for the same awful narrator. Now: key question. How long would that same Kodak camera go for in the same test with eneloop pros powering it (no batteroos obviously)?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 22, 2017, 11:11:38 pm

Quote from: samgab on January 22, 2017, 10:38:23 pm

Pretty okay test, not too bad, except for the same awful narrator. Now: key question. How long would that same Kodak camera go for in the same test with eneloop pros powering it (no batteroos obviously)?

They will NEVER tell you this of course.
Only a fool, someone absolutely desperate, or special niche case uses Alkalines with a camera.
For example, my mum has a AA camera for special occasions. e.g going on holidays were she takes a handful of snaps. She doesn't want to dick around with chargers etc. So I give her Lithium AA's to use, but at a pinch she can buy Alkalines from a shop to get those handful of snaps.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on January 22, 2017, 11:26:17 pm

"Brand new. Straight out of he box. As soon as it turns on it says the batteries are low(3 different sets of brand new name brand batteries) and as soon as the camera flash goes off, so does the camera..."

I think it's very good of Batteroo to be going through Amazon's products and compiling a list of which gadgets are faulty.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 22, 2017, 11:56:31 pm

Quote from: samgab on January 22, 2017, 10:38:23 pm

Pretty okay test, not too bad, except for the same awful narrator. Now: key question. How long would that same Kodak camera go for in the same test with eneloop pros powering it (no batteroos obviously)?

I already suggested that the FZ43 which Amazon show as a newer and cheaper version of the FZ41 be tested with AA batteriseroo sleeves.

A Walmart listing for it says :

Quote

Photo shooting - 120 shots ( alkaline batteries )
Photo shooting - 360 shots ( NiMH batteries )

That indicates it is intended for use with NiMH batteries and won't have a ridiculously high cut off voltage (which is what I exepect the Vivitar crap they tested has).

It obviously hammers batteries resulting in poor life from alkalines, but, with batteriseroo sleeves it is going to hammer them even more. I am really doubtful that batteriseroo sleeves are going to increase life in this camera and am much more suspicious of foul play, like the left camera was recording 720p and the right 320x240.  Why did they switch from photo with flash in the Vivitar test to video recording in this one?

Also the cameras are numbered #3 and #2. How many cameras did they have and why? If they are supposed to be identical why did they need numbering?

My suggestion that AA sleeves need to be tested in a FZ43 and now FZ41 is still I think a good one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on January 23, 2017, 01:02:05 am

Quote from: EEVblog on January 22, 2017, 06:41:41 am

And the usual physical result:
(http://i.imgur.com/nQusr7T.png)

Hey I recognize that guy! he's the one I messaged on twitter warning him about the demerit of batteroo on critical application like bike taillight.
Luckily it #fail -ed before he got into any serious trouble

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hugoneus on January 23, 2017, 07:45:41 pm

I just tweeted at them to see if they are willing to send me a few sleeves.  :-/O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on January 23, 2017, 09:27:47 pm

I call it a tie.

Two videos from Battero that shows it works and one from Dave and one from Frank that shows it does not.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: thm_w on January 23, 2017, 09:57:46 pm

Quote from: Luminax on January 23, 2017, 01:02:05 am

Hey I recognize that guy! he's the one I messaged on twitter warning him about the demerit of batteroo on critical application like bike taillight.
Luckily it #fail -ed before he got into any serious trouble

Good point, its very hard to check if your rear light hasn't shut off mid-ride unless you pull over. Also a bike headlight/tail-light on a hard road frame is one of the most punishing shock environments. Without locktight screws will work loose, snap together battery enclosures can pop open from big pot holes, etc.

But don't worry, if he uses campagnolo he has plenty of cash to burn :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on January 24, 2017, 08:48:46 am

Quote from: ez24 on January 23, 2017, 09:27:47 pm

I call it a tie.

Two videos from Battero that shows it works and one from Dave and one from Frank that shows it does not.

The big difference being that Dave and Frank did not hand select products they knew would show bad results, but Batteroo have clearly hand picked a couple of particularly crappy products because they do show an improvement (maybe).

Even Dave has stated that the sleeves could show an improvement on badly designed devices, but these are likely to be in a small minority.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 24, 2017, 12:02:04 pm

Quote from: ez24 on January 23, 2017, 09:27:47 pm

I call it a tie.
Two videos from Battero that shows it works and one from Dave and one from Frank that shows it does not.

And the two extra MP3 players we tested, plus what others have tested.
Plus the fact that it's been demonstrably proven that Batteroo either deliberately doctored the UL test of the Golf GPS, or they are completely incompetent in testing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw_jFIPxePc&t=7s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw_jFIPxePc&t=7s)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 25, 2017, 12:02:48 pm

damm many people are getting upset as they are finding out that Batteroo does nok work as advertised/getting worse results then without and apparently many shipping problems

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on January 25, 2017, 03:19:34 pm

They just sent out a mailing about that contest to find something, anything, that works with the Batteroo https://www.batteroo.com/contest (https://www.batteroo.com/contest)

Quote

We would like to wish you a happy new year and start 2017 by showing our appreciation to our customers! We are officially starting the Batteroo Customer Appreciation Contest! We are giving away $500 every month to the customer that comes up with the most fun and creative photo or video using our Batteroo Boost sleeves.

In addition to the photo/video contest, we are also choosing 10 winners every month who submit written testimonials, describing how they've benefited from Batteroo Boost. Each of these 10 winners will receive a $50 reward for their Batteroo Boost testimonial!

February’s contest, which is our first, will begin today. Since it is our first month, we are giving everybody an early start! At the end of every month, we will announce the winners. The first day of the following month, the contest begins again!
Submit videos, images to www.batteroo.com/contest (http://www.batteroo.com/contest), and written testimonaials to contest@batteroo.com

 For full contest rules, visit www.batteroo.com/contest (http://www.batteroo.com/contest)

Their website is down though...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on January 25, 2017, 03:22:11 pm

Quote from: kalleboo on January 25, 2017, 03:19:34 pm

They just sent out a mailing about that contest to find something, anything, that works with the Batteroo https://www.batteroo.com/contest (https://www.batteroo.com/contest)

Quote

We would like to wish you a happy new year and start 2017 by showing our appreciation to our customers! We are officially starting the Batteroo Customer Appreciation Contest! We are giving away $500 every month to the customer that comes up with the most fun and creative photo or video using our Batteroo Boost sleeves.

In addition to the photo/video contest, we are also choosing 10 winners every month who submit written testimonials, describing how they've benefited from Batteroo Boost. Each of these 10 winners will receive a $50 reward for their Batteroo Boost testimonial!

February’s contest, which is our first, will begin today. Since it is our first month, we are giving everybody an early start! At the end of every month, we will announce the winners. The first day of the following month, the contest begins again!
Submit videos, images to www.batteroo.com/contest (http://www.batteroo.com/contest), and written testimonaials to contest@batteroo.com

 For full contest rules, visit www.batteroo.com/contest (http://www.batteroo.com/contest)

Gives:- SQLSTATE[HY000] [2002] Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock' (111)

Batteries must have run out....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on January 25, 2017, 05:38:52 pm

Quote

In addition to the photo/video contest, we are also choosing 10 winners every month who submit written testimonials, describing how they've benefited from Batteroo Boost. Each of these 10 winners will receive a $50 reward for their Batteroo Boost testimonial!

Now they're trying to buy positive reviews.:horse:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 25, 2017, 06:02:08 pm

Quote from: Blocco on January 25, 2017, 05:38:52 pm

Now they're trying to buy positive reviews.:horse:

Indeed....  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Domagoj T on January 25, 2017, 06:46:23 pm

Their email went straight into my spam folder.
Anyway, how am I supposed to sing praises when they still haven't shipped my sleeves I ordered over a month ago?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JiggyNinja on January 25, 2017, 09:03:55 pm

Quote from: Domagoj T on January 25, 2017, 06:46:23 pm

Their email went straight into my spam folder.
Anyway, how am I supposed to sing praises when they still haven't shipped my sleeves I ordered over a month ago?

Downsize some of your surplus honesty.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Domagoj T on January 25, 2017, 09:28:50 pm

I'm not catching your drift.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 25, 2017, 10:10:11 pm

I don't knot but on old flashlights (bulb one) I've always run them until the battery die and the lamp just faintly glow, never at "50%" and they are honest on their graph, the flashlight without the boost still works when the other is dead :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 25, 2017, 10:55:08 pm

Quote from: JiggyNinja on January 25, 2017, 09:03:55 pm

Quote from: Domagoj T on January 25, 2017, 06:46:23 pm

Their email went straight into my spam folder.
Anyway, how am I supposed to sing praises when they still haven't shipped my sleeves I ordered over a month ago?

Downsize some of your surplus honesty.

Quote from: Domagoj T on January 25, 2017, 09:28:50 pm

I'm not catching your drift.

Do what Batteroo are doing....  stretching the truth.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on January 25, 2017, 11:53:57 pm

I just came across a product which I would much prefer had the behavior of suddenly dying rather than having the battery voltage tail off gradually....

A frikkin Brymen 857 multimeter....

Just before the 9V battery died, it got really inaccurate.  It freaked me out since I knew the thing I was measuring was good.  Yes I know I ignored the battery warning too long, but still.  Don't lie to me, just die when you know you are about to stop being accurate!  Fresh battery brought it back to normal.

Wonder how bad the boost converter ripple would jack up the measurement circuits of a meter...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 26, 2017, 12:00:00 am

Quote from: kalleboo on January 25, 2017, 03:19:34 pm

They just sent out a mailing about that contest to find something, anything, that works with the Batteroo https://www.batteroo.com/contest (https://www.batteroo.com/contest)

Quote

We would like to wish you a happy new year and start 2017 by showing our appreciation to our customers! We are officially starting the Batteroo Customer Appreciation Contest! We are giving away $500 every month to the customer that comes up with the most fun and creative photo or video using our Batteroo Boost sleeves.

In addition to the photo/video contest, we are also choosing 10 winners every month who submit written testimonials, describing how they've benefited from Batteroo Boost. Each of these 10 winners will receive a $50 reward for their Batteroo Boost testimonial!

February’s contest, which is our first, will begin today. Since it is our first month, we are giving everybody an early start! At the end of every month, we will announce the winners. The first day of the following month, the contest begins again!
Submit videos, images to www.batteroo.com/contest (http://www.batteroo.com/contest), and written testimonaials to contest@batteroo.com

 For full contest rules, visit www.batteroo.com/contest (http://www.batteroo.com/contest)

"most fun and creative photo or video using our Batteroo Boost sleeves". Well, I have some ideas:

• After one side broken off, which the product is designed to do, use some electrical tape one one side, then you can use it as a nice cutter, e.g. for opening mailbags.
• Use the sharp points at the positive terminal as a marker, to mark the position when you drill holes. This is perfect for it, because you can rotate it to create a circle, for larger diameter drills.
• In winter before you go out, carefully twist and move the battery a bit when it is in a device, until it starts getting warm. Then you can use it as a hand warmer. Note: do this only when there is snow outside, you might have to throw it away when the battery catches fire.
• Use it as a gift for a person you don't like. Then record a video when it fails early and the person complains that now even more batteries goes to the landfill.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on January 26, 2017, 01:51:40 am

Whack some batteroos (4 of them) into the Mooninite LED Panel, put it in Boston, and finally have a REAL IED bomb  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on January 26, 2017, 08:25:34 am

Quote from: Luminax on January 26, 2017, 01:51:40 am

Whack some batteroos (4 of them) into the Mooninite LED Panel, put it in Boston, and finally have a REAL IED bomb  :-DD

How is that at all funny FFS?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on January 26, 2017, 10:08:26 pm

it's funny because it has a high chance to explode when you're not expecting it :)
Do you have a problem with the fact that Batteroo sleeves often overheat, and could potentially drive the battery to explode ?
it is in fact a potential random bomb, like some other badly designed battery devices.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on January 27, 2017, 03:14:03 am

Quote from: StuUK on January 26, 2017, 08:25:34 am

Quote from: Luminax on January 26, 2017, 01:51:40 am

Whack some batteroos (4 of them) into the Mooninite LED Panel, put it in Boston, and finally have a REAL IED bomb  :-DD

How is that at all funny FFS?

Did you not know the piece of story concerning the LED panel Mooninite ad campaign that caused the Boston bomb scare?
It was just an innocent piece of LED matrix advertising board... but now with batteroo...!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on January 27, 2017, 06:25:39 am

(http://i.imgur.com/8AmmCGk.png)

Note the part that says 'upload to any 3rd party video sharing website'.

Seeing as one of the very few situations where the Batteroos come in useful is in sex toys, could someone submit a video via a pornhub link?

EDIT:  Also just done a bit of poking around.  Seems like Frankie had trouble with the fuses on his Ferrari:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/360-430-sponsored-yellow-compass-group/479414-can-someone-help-me-decoding-fuses.html (http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/360-430-sponsored-yellow-compass-group/479414-can-someone-help-me-decoding-fuses.html)

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/360-430-sponsored-yellow-compass-group/444011-360-spider-fuse-locations.html (http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/360-430-sponsored-yellow-compass-group/444011-360-spider-fuse-locations.html)

(http://i.imgur.com/LiBPqgn.png)

 :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 27, 2017, 11:47:07 am

Quote

In addition to the photo/video contest, we are also choosing 10 winners every month who submit written testimonials, describing how they've benefited from Batteroo Boost. Each of these 10 winners will receive a $50 reward for their Batteroo Boost testimonial!

Youtube income from debunking videos....  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on January 27, 2017, 11:59:36 am

My set of 4 Batteroo AA arrived today in a retail package.
I guess, I will do some testing over the weekend.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 27, 2017, 02:06:52 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=287927;image)

Call me fussy - but I would have suggested checking the polarity (step 2) as the first thing to do, before inserting the battery into the sleeve (step 1).



... or have I misinterpreted the instructions?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on January 27, 2017, 05:08:03 pm

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on January 27, 2017, 06:25:39 am

(http://i.imgur.com/LiBPqgn.png)

He should have put a batteriser sleeve in, instead of replacing the battery
 :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on January 27, 2017, 06:36:19 pm

Quote from: HighVoltage on January 27, 2017, 11:59:36 am

My set of 4 Batteroo AA arrived today in a retail package.
I guess, I will do some testing over the weekend.

I hope in devices.  I think there are enough graphs.  I still want to see the monkeys and my guess they will fail because Bateroo showed them in a video but did not show any tests with them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 27, 2017, 09:46:06 pm

I think people are beginning to smell the bullshit, and the apparent shipping problems
Previous comments are deleted and so will a few of these.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on January 28, 2017, 12:01:19 am

I think we may be being very, very nice to Batteroo by avoiding some of the basic tests.

We keep testing single batteries - but most devices use more then one battery cell. As far as I know, no one has even done one of the most basic important checks - a reverse diode test across the output to see if it acts like a diode. Absolutely unbelievable!

When a Batteriser shuts down due to low voltage, what does it do? A really important questions as the other Batterisers are still producing 1.5V at this point.

If it goes open:
The shutdown cell will get a reverse voltage across it - so it has to be able to be an open circuit with a reverse voltage of up to 10.5V (for a device that uses 8 AA cells - such as many old handheld walkie talkies). It could be tested non-destructively by applying the reverse voltage via a 10K resistor. See what the maximum voltage it can take. Perhaps short out the battery contacts to simulate a flat battery. 10.5V does not sound like much, but the batteriser IC is optimised for high currents and 1.5V operation - it may use devices with a 5V maximum rating.

The big thing if it behaves this way is that if there is one weak battery cell in a multi battery cell device, the Batteriser will draw more current from the weak cell then all the other cells and so it speeds up the discharge of that weakest cell. When the device shuts down, you chuck out all the cells (it is the Batteriser right? Uses every drop of power from a cell.) The trouble is those other cells you are chucking out may have more remaining charge in them then if you had no Batteriser - so the Batteriser, even if 100% efficient, may be wasting more batteries!

Lots of people buy AA/AAA cells in bulk so by the time they are used, they may be years old. Or they grab whatever mixed batteries they have on hand. It is easy to end up with a set of batteries with very different available capacities.

If it looks like a diode junction with a reverse voltage:

This opens up a whole nest of questions.

For a start, the device can still draw current from the other 3 battery cells (in a 4 battery device) and so in a high current device, there can be a lot of heat in this reverse diode junction - probably much more then when the Batteriser is in switching mode. Could easily cuase the Batteriser IC to fuse (ie become a short across the battery). This could be the factor that decides the maximum current rating of the Batteriser.

The second point that I have raised several times is that if the IC acts like a diode with a reverse applied voltage, the device may be susceptible to latch up. To test non-destructively (hopefully), apply a reverse current through the output of say 100mA with no battery and then connect 1.6V via 100 ohms to the battery terminals. Then switch off the 100mA through the output. Is the batteriser dragging down the 1.6V to a lower voltage such as 1.2V? If it has this inherent weakness, then it is possible for the Batteriser to latch up during the insertion of the last battery into a switched-on device or a device that has a capacitor permanently across the batteries. If it can latch up, this could easily cause enough heat in the switching IC to make it fuse and short the battery out. It is possible to design latch-up resistant IC's, but most switching regulator IC's probably were not designed at the start to have to cope with working in series with other regulators.

If the Batteriser behaves in some different way:

The least likely, but say when it shuts down, it somehow connects the flat battery to the outputs. Really unlikely.

Richard

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 28, 2017, 12:23:00 am

They just went through their next check and delete cycle and the comments i posted a few hours ago are deleted  :-DD
But another comment showing the frustrated customers

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 28, 2017, 01:21:00 am

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on January 28, 2017, 12:23:00 am

Quote from: Anthony Podorsek

My worst battery abusers will not take the Batteroo sleeve due to size restrictions. I have had batteries drained of power. I had one Batteroo short out and melt the top off.

Quote from: Anthony Podorsek

There is more to a successful business than just a great product

You would think he might have concluded by now that the product isn't anywhere near great.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 28, 2017, 02:54:22 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=288038;image)

So yet another report of a melted Batteriser!
Is that 4 now?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kjelt on January 28, 2017, 08:57:16 am

Quote

There is more to a succesfull business than just a great product

Great product? What have I been missing  :)
If my device would burn I would:
First ask my insurance, maybe their lawyers can speed things up.
Second mail the known consumer watchdog programs and insitutions.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on January 28, 2017, 10:10:56 pm

Great news for all the electronic accordion players out there... maybe...well he doesn't actually say... I wonder if he's received his $50 yet?

https://youtu.be/hy1M7rnYTs4

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 28, 2017, 10:39:15 pm

Quote from: Blocco on January 28, 2017, 10:10:56 pm

Great news for all the electronic accordion players out there... maybe...well he doesn't actually say... I wonder if he's received his $50 yet?

I didn't know that there are battery powered accordions. "just 10 batteries" :palm: First search result for it is a forum entry how to replace it with a $20 Li-ion battery pack from eBay, charger included.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on January 28, 2017, 11:05:14 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 28, 2017, 10:39:15 pm

Quote from: Blocco on January 28, 2017, 10:10:56 pm

Great news for all the electronic accordion players out there... maybe...well he doesn't actually say... I wonder if he's received his $50 yet?

I didn't know that there are battery powered accordions. "just 10 batteries" :palm: First search result for it is a forum entry how to replace it with a $20 Li-ion battery pack from eBay, charger included.

This poor old gentleman is exactly the kind of credulous sucker that is preyed upon by those running scams and worthless products like the Batteroo. I feel sorry for him, but caveat emptor and all that...
If he had done that same quick google search, he would have saved himself a great deal of money and gained much better performance and life per use by buying the rechargable battery pack instead.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on January 28, 2017, 11:17:42 pm

Plenty of opportunities for short-circuits between cells there, not really ideal in a £2200 instrument :--. We already know how fragile the insulating coating is.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on January 29, 2017, 02:12:26 am

PLUS !!!! If just ONE sleeve fails (broken, shorted etc) he's screwed, and has to buy spares ... IF they ever arrive !

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 29, 2017, 03:33:01 am

Quote from: digsys on January 29, 2017, 02:12:26 am

PLUS !!!! If just ONE sleeve fails (broken, shorted etc) he's screwed, and has to buy spares ... IF they ever arrive !

Seems to me they come in packs of 4.  With 10 in use, he would already have a minimum of 2 spare.


Interesting that he doesn't mention anything other than they can power the instrument and that he has a desire for maximum service life from his batteries.  No statement that the sleeves actually fulfill the desire.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 29, 2017, 03:37:24 am

Quote from: samgab on January 28, 2017, 11:05:14 pm

If he had done that same quick google search, he would have saved himself a great deal of money and gained much better performance and life per use by buying the rechargable battery pack instead.

The manual tells you to use NiMH AA batteries so he should already have been saving money.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on January 29, 2017, 10:17:54 am

Quote from: Hensingler on January 29, 2017, 03:37:24 am

Quote from: samgab on January 28, 2017, 11:05:14 pm

If he had done that same quick google search, he would have saved himself a great deal of money and gained much better performance and life per use by buying the rechargable battery pack instead.

The manual tells you to use NiMH AA batteries so he should already have been saving money.

The recommendation to use NiMH cells suggests that the accordion has been designed with a low cut-off voltage. I expect that the control electronics all work on 5V and it's only the audio amplifier that  needs 12V to output full power (but will still work ok at 10V or less) so it could easily operate down to 1V per cell and at this point there won't be any energy left to recover from an alkaline or NiMH battery.

The video appears to be a response to Batteroo's offer of $50 for positive reviews (the "Batteroo" at the end doesn't seem normal) so hopefully he'll receive his money and then he can buy a NiMH battery and charger.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: forrestc on January 29, 2017, 12:01:16 pm

Quote from: Blocco on January 29, 2017, 10:17:54 am

The video appears to be a response to Batteroo's offer of $50 for positive reviews (the "Batteroo" at the end doesn't seem normal) so hopefully he'll receive his money and then he can buy a NiMH battery and charger.

Oh, he'll get it, but it will be 2 years from now, and it will be defective in numerous ways.   

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on January 29, 2017, 12:32:56 pm

Quote from: Blocco on January 28, 2017, 11:17:42 pm

Plenty of opportunities for short-circuits between cells there, not really ideal in a £2200 instrument :--. We already know how fragile the insulating coating is.

I wonder how much complaints about devices damaged by shorted Batteroo sleeves are necessary to trigger an official investigation into product safety. I'd assume the sleeves are inherently flimsy and prone to short circuits.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 29, 2017, 08:31:01 pm

Another future deleted comment.
Would be funny to get all deleted comments collected in this thread and put them togetaher, just so people outside of the forum can see the scope of the deceit from batteroo

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ysjoelfir on January 29, 2017, 08:38:00 pm

I am wondering why no one of the scamed indigogo backers whose posts have been deletet has started a spam campaign, meaning posting his complaints over and over again after they got deleted... I personally would be totaly pissed if I post a complaint and get no answer at all and even the complaint gets deleted...  :rant:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 29, 2017, 09:14:43 pm

Quote from: Ysjoelfir on January 29, 2017, 08:38:00 pm

I am wondering why no one of the scamed indigogo backers whose posts have been deletet has started a spam campaign, meaning posting his complaints over and over again after they got deleted... I personally would be totaly pissed if I post a complaint and get no answer at all and even the complaint gets deleted...  :rant:

Maybe IGG still shows them their own posts even if they're "deleted".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 29, 2017, 10:38:51 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 29, 2017, 09:14:43 pm

Quote from: Ysjoelfir on January 29, 2017, 08:38:00 pm

I am wondering why no one of the scamed indigogo backers whose posts have been deletet has started a spam campaign, meaning posting his complaints over and over again after they got deleted... I personally would be totaly pissed if I post a complaint and get no answer at all and even the complaint gets deleted...  :rant:

Maybe IGG still shows them their own posts even if they're "deleted".

Every time they "delete" a comment the comment counter stays the same so they actually hide the comment, and yes maybe backers still see their comment and think nothing about it.
But for staying in the theme of this thread they are still deleted as nobody then original poster and batteroo can see them

So if you reading this and have posted to batteroo page (Indiegogo) then try to check the page when logged out to see if your comment is still there

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on January 29, 2017, 11:45:44 pm

What ever happened to Bob Lucas Junior? He was one of the most vocal critics on IGG but I haven't seen a post from him for a while now; I hope he's OK.... :-X

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 30, 2017, 03:58:09 am

Quote from: Blocco on January 29, 2017, 11:45:44 pm

What ever happened to Bob Lucas Junior? He was one of the most vocal critics on IGG but I haven't seen a post from him for a while now; I hope he's OK.... :-X

Maybe he lost interest, or is it possible to ban people on Indiegogo from a project? I didn't find anything with a quick Google search. And looks like with Kickstarter, you can't remove comments yourself, but you have to ask an admin for it? If someone creates an Indiegogo project (it is easy with their lax rules, another free energy project would be fun :D ), I can add a comment with my Indiegogo account and we can test this, and the visibility rules of deleted comments.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on January 30, 2017, 11:01:49 am

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on January 29, 2017, 08:31:01 pm

Another future deleted comment.
Would be funny to get all deleted comments collected in this thread and put them togetaher, just so people outside of the forum can see the scope of the deceit from batteroo

They've now culled that and other recent complaints.

They seem less bothered with the "my tracking number doesn't work" and "Still no delivery" posts.  Mind you, if they deleted all those, there'd be bugger-all left.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on January 30, 2017, 06:29:34 pm

More conclusive evidence that Batteroo works and that anyone who disagrees is being paid by "big battery". I suspect that Farid Rooh is not impartial on this matter....

(http://i.imgur.com/sIwfg15.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 30, 2017, 06:53:44 pm

Quote from: Blocco on January 30, 2017, 06:29:34 pm

More conclusive evidence that Batteroo works and that anyone who disagrees is being paid by "big battery". I suspect that Farid Rooh is not impartial on this matter....

(http://i.imgur.com/sIwfg15.png)

Nah, if they were going to shill their comment section they'd use a name without "Rooh" in it. Right?

(or maybe it's a double-bluff  :popcorn: )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on January 30, 2017, 06:53:56 pm

Quote from: Blocco on January 30, 2017, 06:29:34 pm

I suspect that Farid Rooh is not impartial on this matter....

:-DD The name is a dead giveaway  :palm:

https://www.facebook.com/drrooh?fref=ufi&rc=p (https://www.facebook.com/drrooh?fref=ufi&rc=p)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on January 30, 2017, 06:59:00 pm

Quote from: daveake on January 30, 2017, 06:53:56 pm

Quote from: Blocco on January 30, 2017, 06:29:34 pm

I suspect that Farid Rooh is not impartial on this matter....

:-DD The name is a dead giveaway  :palm:

https://www.facebook.com/drrooh?fref=ufi&rc=p (https://www.facebook.com/drrooh?fref=ufi&rc=p)

Well,  Frankie is among his Facebook friends...

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170130/b66a946a4320b68e96ef309bcdfcd18c.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on January 30, 2017, 07:06:52 pm

Quote from: meeder on January 30, 2017, 06:59:00 pm

Quote from: daveake on January 30, 2017, 06:53:56 pm

Quote from: Blocco on January 30, 2017, 06:29:34 pm

I suspect that Farid Rooh is not impartial on this matter....

:-DD The name is a dead giveaway  :palm:

https://www.facebook.com/drrooh?fref=ufi&rc=p (https://www.facebook.com/drrooh?fref=ufi&rc=p)

Well,  Frankie is among his Facebook friends...

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170130/b66a946a4320b68e96ef309bcdfcd18c.jpg)

Well, who would have supected this kind of shenanigans from such reputable folk :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 30, 2017, 07:07:24 pm

And again accusing that people are paid by battery companies. Makes no sense, because battery companies are happy that people are using the Batteroo sleeves, because then they sell more batteries :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JiggyNinja on January 30, 2017, 07:11:48 pm

Quote from: Blocco on January 30, 2017, 06:29:34 pm

More conclusive evidence that Batteroo works and that anyone who disagrees is being paid by "big battery". I suspect that Farid Rooh is not impartial on this matter....

(http://i.imgur.com/sIwfg15.png)

Right, because trying to expose and punish LIARS for LYING and preventing them from profiting from their LIES is exactly like burning people at the stake for thought crime.

Shut up and go away. Just fucking go away.

(Farid, not Blocco)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on January 30, 2017, 07:46:45 pm

Quote from: daveake on January 30, 2017, 06:53:56 pm

Quote from: Blocco on January 30, 2017, 06:29:34 pm

I suspect that Farid Rooh is not impartial on this matter....

:-DD The name is a dead giveaway  :palm:

This guy?

http://www.wellness1stimc.com/ (http://www.wellness1stimc.com/)

With a marvelous "the following materials are for educational purposes only. This information is not intended for diagnosis or any other purposes." disclaimer at the top of the page.

Seems like scamming runs in the family.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 30, 2017, 08:24:16 pm

This should be in some kind of late show/documentary etc, a good story about lies upon lies and a BIG investigation into the Roohperver family, and how MANY MANY people around the world are busting them from the start of this whole batteriser scheme.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on January 30, 2017, 09:21:30 pm

And predictably, that facebook account no longer exists.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on January 30, 2017, 09:27:34 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on January 30, 2017, 07:46:45 pm

Quote from: daveake on January 30, 2017, 06:53:56 pm

Quote from: Blocco on January 30, 2017, 06:29:34 pm

I suspect that Farid Rooh is not impartial on this matter....

:-DD The name is a dead giveaway  :palm:

This guy?

http://www.wellness1stimc.com/ (http://www.wellness1stimc.com/)

With a marvelous "the following materials are for educational purposes only. This information is not intended for diagnosis or any other purposes." disclaimer at the top of the page.

Seems like scamming runs in the family.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck... What's that sound a duck makes again?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 30, 2017, 09:45:07 pm

I find the temerity of the continued Batteroo hype and outright deception being put forth to be absolutely fascinating.  The depth of the deceit is incredible and they've even really doubled down on trying to convince people of their incredulous claims!  It really must take some serious cajones to be such outright, professional liars, but...

Wow!  It really does seem that this whole extended family has a propensity to be shysters, doesn't it? 

Amazing!  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rich on January 31, 2017, 12:34:00 am

Just in case there is any doubt about the speculated connection, I'll just leave this here...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on January 31, 2017, 01:49:06 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on January 30, 2017, 07:07:24 pm

And again accusing that people are paid by battery companies. Makes no sense, because battery companies are happy that people are using the Batteroo sleeves, because then they sell more batteries :-DD

It would seem there is an opportunity for battery companies.... to offer some free Batteroo sleeves.

The process would need to ensure the sleeves are "genuine" products from Batteroo and not ones that (may) have been tampered with.  Perhaps the battery company can issue vouchers which the customer can submit to Batteroo for fulfillment.  Batteroo then present the vouchers to the battery company for reimbursement.

Batteroo make more sales ... and so will the battery companies.




On second thought - the battery companies are only going to recoup their investment if the sleeves last long enough - and the public continue to use them for longer than common sense suggests.

Hmmm...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on January 31, 2017, 07:34:16 am

Quote from: Farid Rooh

This is gonna save us hundreds of dollars per year.  No brainer.

HUNDREDS?!!  Anyone who is even spending (let alone saving) hundreds of dollars per year on primary cells should be seriously considering rechargeable cells or, at least, a more cost effective supplier for their alkaline primaries. 

Personally, I use things like the commercial Duracell Pro-Cell bulk packs for my alkaline primary cell needs and various types of NiCd and NiMH cells for rechargeables like many astute readers here...

Quote from: Farid Rooh

(Invented by my brothers of course).

Remind me, again, exactly what they invented?!

The concept of a DC-DC converter?  NOPE!! Absolutely NOT!!

New and ever more inventive ways to try to outright scam unsuspecting people who aren't "electronic-savvy"?  WELL....  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Domagoj T on January 31, 2017, 08:01:41 am

I hate to bring in an ad hominem, but I've never heard of the term "Doctor of Pastoral Sciences".
However, somebody has apparently made a summary of it.
http://www.credentialwatch.org/reports/pma/overview.shtml (http://www.credentialwatch.org/reports/pma/overview.shtml)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on January 31, 2017, 09:09:27 am

Quote from: Domagoj T on January 31, 2017, 08:01:41 am

I hate to bring in an ad hominem, but I've never heard of the term "Doctor of Pastoral Sciences".
However, somebody has apparently made a summary of it.
http://www.credentialwatch.org/reports/pma/overview.shtml (http://www.credentialwatch.org/reports/pma/overview.shtml)

So "Pastoral Sciences" is just another term for nonsense like naturopathy, homeopathy etc.? You pay the organization $49 per year and then you can call yourself a doctor? But every family has a black sheep, the Batteroo founders wouldn't do such things, like buying an award from Frost & Sullivan and then posting it on there website. Hmm, wait a moment (https://www.batteroo.com/press/?year=2017)...  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 31, 2017, 09:59:32 am

Words fail me.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=288671;image)

How many Roohs are there out there? Does any of them have an honest job?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on January 31, 2017, 11:24:11 am

Probably only in America can you use such a fake "Dr." title.
In Germany you would be seeing the courtroom from the inside, when attempting to use such a title officially.

Whenever I think this soap opera can not have another episode, it is continuing in a funny way.
So, I will stay subscribed to this thread ...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 31, 2017, 11:42:03 am

Quote from: HighVoltage on January 31, 2017, 11:24:11 am

Probably only in America can you use such a fake "Dr." title.
In Germany you would be seeing the courtroom from the inside, when attempting to use such a title officially.

I've just decoded all the initials after his name. ROFL!  :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=288697;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on January 31, 2017, 11:46:47 am

Quote from: Domagoj T on January 31, 2017, 08:01:41 am

I hate to bring in an ad hominem, but I've never heard of the term "Doctor of Pastoral Sciences".
However, somebody has apparently made a summary of it.
http://www.credentialwatch.org/reports/pma/overview.shtml (http://www.credentialwatch.org/reports/pma/overview.shtml)

From that page:

Quote

Hundreds of practitioners are using the credentials "PSc.D.," "D.PSc.," and/or "Doctor of Pastoral Medicine" to promote their services. These titles come from the Texas-based Pastoral Medical Association (PMA), which "licenses" practitioners and registers prospective patients as "members" who wish to receive care from these providers. The PMA, which is headquartered in Irving, Texas, describes itself as "a private ecclesiastical membership association with a mission to promote scripture-based health and wellness concepts." [1] Its practitioner members typically offer medical services that require a government-issued license to provide, but the PMA asserts that "regulation of the Almighty's health care concepts is outside the jurisdiction of . . . secular regulatory boards" and that "when PMA license rules are followed . . . PMA license has no effect on any state license and state license has no effect on PMA license." [2]

Now you know where they get their faith in the Batteriser from!  :palm:

Jesus H. Christ it's quack central!
https://pmai.us/ (https://pmai.us/)

Quote

Disclaimer

Practitioners of Pastoral Science & Medicine offer health improvement and counseling services based on a ministerial license issued by the Pastoral Medical Association (PMA).

PMA licensees do not practice medicine. More specifically, they do not examine, diagnose or treat, or offer to treat or cure or attempt to cure, any mental or physical disease, disorder or illness, or any physical deformity or injury. Also, PMA licensees do not recommend or prescribe any medications or pharmaceutical drugs.

https://pmai.us/information-disclaimer/ (https://pmai.us/information-disclaimer/)

Quote

Practitioners of Pastoral Science & Medicine offer health improvement and counseling services based on a ministerial license issued by the Pastoral Medical Association (PMA). The titles PSc.D and D.PSc referenced on this website relate to practitioner’s PMA license, and not to any state license authority.

Sure trying to make himself sound like a medical doctor:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-farid-rooh-dpsc-bcim-dc-04a508111 (https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-farid-rooh-dpsc-bcim-dc-04a508111)
(http://i.imgur.com/KZGtEKQ.png)

https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-farid-rooh-dpsc-bcim-dc-csp-72212922 (https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-farid-rooh-dpsc-bcim-dc-csp-72212922)
(http://i.imgur.com/J9wDK5n.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/hqDWy1Z.png)

And he does go under the Rooh-Parvar name with a hyphen
https://www.ratemds.com/doctor-ratings/2913232/Dr-FARID-ROOH-PARVAR-Chandler-AZ.html (https://www.ratemds.com/doctor-ratings/2913232/Dr-FARID-ROOH-PARVAR-Chandler-AZ.html)

He has a Youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCE7wyrnYqY3QPiF-TXiPuRQ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCE7wyrnYqY3QPiF-TXiPuRQ)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on January 31, 2017, 11:50:00 am

I got my 4 x AA Batteriser last week and posted my results in the testing thread.
Now I have no further need for them, may be I am keeping one...,

Well, I feel bad putting them on ebay, so I am willing to give 3 AA sleeves away to anyone in Germany that wants to use them for testing purpose. So, 3 sleeves for 3 different people who want one, I even pay the postage, LOL. Send me a PM, if you are interested.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 31, 2017, 01:00:08 pm

Adding another comment to the thread, this will also be deleted, but i do hope he writes everyday :)
And he should link in the toy train test also
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl90m2KHbNk& (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl90m2KHbNk&)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: WN1X on January 31, 2017, 01:12:32 pm

Quote from: Farid Rooh

This is gonna save us hundreds of dollars per year.  No brainer.

 :palm: Too funny...I typically have to change the batteries in my Apple keyboard once, maybe twice a year. I have to wonder where Farid is buying his batteries  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on January 31, 2017, 02:29:07 pm

Maybe he drives a battery powered Mercedes? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k1tbf8muMc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k1tbf8muMc)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 31, 2017, 04:19:18 pm

Quote from: McBryce on January 31, 2017, 02:29:07 pm

Maybe he drives a battery powered Mercedes? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k1tbf8muMc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k1tbf8muMc)

McBryce.

VERY quick math says that you will need over/about 6200 AA to go about 100KM/62Miles

NOBODY would have an EV if you had to do that hehehehe

EDIT: Battery weight for 6200 AA is about 150KG!!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on January 31, 2017, 05:08:55 pm

Quote from: HighVoltage on January 31, 2017, 11:50:00 am

Well, I feel bad putting them on ebay

Do it for a laugh. Make sure to say they reduce battery life "in all known gadgets" and ask a ridiculous price to dissuade all but the True Believers.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fgrir on January 31, 2017, 05:18:03 pm

Quote from: Fungus on January 31, 2017, 05:08:55 pm

Quote from: HighVoltage on January 31, 2017, 11:50:00 am

Well, I feel bad putting them on ebay

Do it for a laugh. Make sure to say they reduce battery life "in all known gadgets" and ask a ridiculous price to dissuade all but the True Believers.  :popcorn:

And don't forget a prominent warning about the danger of cuts and burns  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on January 31, 2017, 05:46:02 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 28, 2017, 02:54:22 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=288038;image)

So yet another report of a melted Batteriser!
Is that 4 now?

I think he's about to have a meltdown himself  :scared: ...

(http://i.imgur.com/G2yQN5z.png)

Quite right too.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on January 31, 2017, 06:14:22 pm

It's incredible; it seems like every member of that Roohparvar family are masters of peddling various flavours of snake oil. Total sleaze. Their parents must be real pieces of work. Well, perhaps they'll all find themselves shipped back to sweet home Iran, where they can try to continue their delightful scamming practices. I imagine charlatans are treated a little less tolerantly over there...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JiggyNinja on January 31, 2017, 06:19:39 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on January 31, 2017, 11:46:47 am

From that page:

Quote

Hundreds of practitioners are using the credentials "PSc.D.," "D.PSc.," and/or "Doctor of Pastoral Medicine" to promote their services. These titles come from the Texas-based Pastoral Medical Association (PMA), which "licenses" practitioners and registers prospective patients as "members" who wish to receive care from these providers. The PMA, which is headquartered in Irving, Texas, describes itself as "a private ecclesiastical membership association with a mission to promote scripture-based health and wellness concepts." [1] Its practitioner members typically offer medical services that require a government-issued license to provide, but the PMA asserts that "regulation of the Almighty's health care concepts is outside the jurisdiction of . . . secular regulatory boards" and that "when PMA license rules are followed . . . PMA license has no effect on any state license and state license has no effect on PMA license." [2]

Now you know where they get their faith in the Batteriser from!  :palm:

Jesus H. Christ it's quack central!

There's two definitions of "pastoral". I can't be the only fool who would glance at that title and think it was vaguely cattle-related instead of another "prosperity gospel" garbage. That's probably by design too, just like the "China Export" is oh-so-coincidentally similar to the Conformité Européene mark.

And I should know better, living in the God-soaked and God-forsaken country that I do.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on January 31, 2017, 07:22:17 pm

China Export is a myth. It does not exist.  :palm: As seen on this forum, there are plenty of "real" product that bear an incorrect CE logo, which mean "Conformité Européenne" there are never been such a thing as "China Export".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on January 31, 2017, 07:45:54 pm

Another comment for the record here

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on February 01, 2017, 09:45:02 am

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on January 31, 2017, 07:45:54 pm

Another comment for the record here

Now deleted, of course, along with the comment complaining about having his comments deleted ...  |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: JiggyNinja on February 01, 2017, 02:03:39 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on January 31, 2017, 07:45:54 pm

Another comment for the record here

Fresh alkalines have a slightly higher voltage than the Batteroo's setpoint, so until the battery voltage drops a little the switcher doesn't turn on and you just see the small voltage drop from the synchronous rectifier.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ccs46 on February 01, 2017, 02:08:38 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on January 30, 2017, 08:24:16 pm

This should be in some kind of late show/documentary etc, a good story about lies upon lies and a BIG investigation into the Roohperver family, and how MANY MANY people around the world are busting them from the start of this whole batteriser scheme.

I can see it now!  :box:

"Tonight on 20/20, ABC News investigates the business practices of  Batteroo, a company selling sleeves that claim to increase use battery usage." We also talk to the so called EEVBlogger who originally brought up the issue on his YouTube channel. In doing so he started a witch hunt."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ysjoelfir on February 01, 2017, 08:38:48 pm

While visiting my local supermarket I saw a product which sounded like it is a new product from the Rhoobarb-Bros! Check it out :)
(http://fotos.ysjoelfir.de/foren/eevblog/roobar.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on February 01, 2017, 08:53:45 pm

Quote from: Ysjoelfir on February 01, 2017, 08:38:48 pm

While visiting my local supermarket I saw a product which sounded like it is a new product from the Rhoobarb-Bros! Check it out :)

LOL...
800% more energy in each bite.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on February 01, 2017, 10:26:23 pm

They all need locking up, in cells with 5 bars of course.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Smokey on February 01, 2017, 10:46:15 pm

Quote from: Mr.B on February 01, 2017, 08:53:45 pm

Quote from: Ysjoelfir on February 01, 2017, 08:38:48 pm

While visiting my local supermarket I saw a product which sounded like it is a new product from the Rhoobarb-Bros! Check it out :)

LOL...
800% more energy in each bite.

More like "800% more fiber, to really get the shit flowing!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on February 01, 2017, 10:59:21 pm

It would appear that you cannot have one without the other, their entire campaign was based around waffle.   ::)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=289107;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on February 02, 2017, 12:06:52 am

So Farid Rooh(parvar) is a "Doctor"? From this point onward you shall all now address me as Professor.  :palm:

There are some seriously stupid people on this planet who believe almost anything a stranger tells them. The Roohparvars just seem to be preying on the vulnerable. I'm suprised they aren't peddling their crap on some dodgy TV home shopping channel at 3:00am.

This short sketch from a 1990's television show sums them up nicely:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QaH0uPlp24 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QaH0uPlp24)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: wilfred on February 02, 2017, 11:04:09 am

That AA Merc video is seriously funny. But does anyone give a shit about Batteroo anymore? I don't even want Dave to waste his time on a video to characterise the converter circuit.

Batteriser was a classic debunk,
We thought the product was junk.
Renaming it Batteroo,
Rhymed it with Poo.
We waited ages to find that it stunk.

Yeah OK i'm no poet but I've been having fun with limericks lately.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on February 02, 2017, 11:20:47 am

Quote from: wilfred on February 02, 2017, 11:04:09 am

That AA Merc video is seriously funny. But does anyone give a shit about Batteroo anymore? I don't even want Dave to waste his time on a video to characterise the converter circuit.

Batteriser was a classic debunk,
We thought the product was junk.
Renaming it Batteroo,
still smelled it like poo.
We waited ages to find that it stunk.

Yeah OK i'm no poet but I've been having fun with limericks lately.

Wow, you're a poet,
And we didn't even know it.
Do you make things rhyme,
All the time?

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: wilfred on February 02, 2017, 11:33:41 am

Quote from: McBryce on February 02, 2017, 11:20:47 am

Wow, you're a poet,
And we didn't even know it.
Do you make things rhyme,
All the time?

McBryce.

Whenever the whim may take me,
and prose dost ever forsake me.
If you think that this time,
you're expecting a rhyme.
For a poet you'll surely mistake me.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on February 02, 2017, 11:58:36 am

Quote from: WN1X on January 31, 2017, 01:12:32 pm

Quote from: Farid Rooh

This is gonna save us hundreds of dollars per year.  No brainer.

 :palm: Too funny...I typically have to change the batteries in my Apple keyboard once, maybe twice a year. I have to wonder where Farid is buying his batteries  :-//

"No brainer" --- literally.

(I've always tended to interpret that phrase as "I have no brain." :-//)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on February 03, 2017, 01:31:25 am

 :wtf:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-extend-battery-life-significantly#/comments (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-extend-battery-life-significantly#/comments)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 03, 2017, 01:34:07 am

Quote from: StillTrying on February 03, 2017, 01:31:25 am

:wtf:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-extend-battery-life-significantly#/comments (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-extend-battery-life-significantly#/comments)

Every question gets this reply now.
Obviously they no longer intend to support IGG, it's done and dusted now it's delivered.

(http://i.imgur.com/73lz6Fw.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on February 03, 2017, 04:22:24 am

You're all doing it wrong.

Please direct any further replies to support@batteroo.com  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 03, 2017, 05:42:33 am

Quote from: Halcyon on February 03, 2017, 04:22:24 am

You're all doing it wrong.
Please direct any further replies to support@batteroo.com  ;)

Maybe all us customers could use this email address to great comedic relief  ;)
Post you best reply!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on February 03, 2017, 06:03:31 am

Auto-reply, you say?  :)

https://youtu.be/Dceyy0cX6J4?t=310

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 03, 2017, 07:56:35 am

Quote from: drussell on February 03, 2017, 06:03:31 am

Auto-reply, you say?  :)

https://youtu.be/Dceyy0cX6J4?t=310

That whole thing is funny!
 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on February 03, 2017, 09:28:16 am

Quote from: EEVblog on February 03, 2017, 07:56:35 am

Quote from: drussell on February 03, 2017, 06:03:31 am

Auto-reply, you say?  :)

https://youtu.be/Dceyy0cX6J4?t=310

That whole thing is funny!
 :-DD

If you like that sort of thing you should check out a TV show called "Modern Life Is Goodish" by a guy called Dave Gorman.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on February 03, 2017, 10:05:10 am

Quote from: EEVblog on February 03, 2017, 07:56:35 am

Quote from: drussell on February 03, 2017, 06:03:31 am

Auto-reply, you say?  :)

https://youtu.be/Dceyy0cX6J4?t=310

That whole thing is funny!
 :-DD

The sad truth about these spam eMails: if you click the unsubscribe button, they just know that you've read the eMail and your eMail address gets worth more, gets sold more often to other spammers etc. The only right thing to do is to just block the eMail sender, and use a Bayesian spam filter which you can train for these kind of eMails, because usually the sender is faked and different each time. Or even more evil, they use random eMail addresses as senders. Once I got replies of a spam eMail I didn't send, because my eMail address was used as the sender, fortunately only for a couple eMails, was not fun.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on February 04, 2017, 12:17:13 am

It's even more of a family affair now ...

(http://i.imgur.com/ZV4uU7c.png)  :=\

http://www.scoop.it/t/battery-extender/?tag=Batteroo+Boost (http://www.scoop.it/t/battery-extender/?tag=Batteroo+Boost)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on February 04, 2017, 12:42:36 am

On the Batteroo technology page (https://www.batteroo.com/technology (https://www.batteroo.com/technology)), they still have this:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=289748)
Do they mention the FCC test on the Batteroo packaging?

There is a lot wrong with this - only the AA Bateriser was tested, it was running at 1.5MHz and now it runs at 2.5Mhz so a different chip, and it was only tested at 1.5mA. If the Battery was above 1.5V, the switching regulator was not switching at all.

As I understand it, if you are claiming FCC emissions compliance, it has to be on the product:

Source: https://transition.fcc.gov/bureaus/oet/info/documents/bulletins/oet62/oet62rev.pdf (https://transition.fcc.gov/bureaus/oet/info/documents/bulletins/oet62/oet62rev.pdf)

Quote

Once the report is on file, a compliance label must be affixed to the device. Also, an
information statement regarding the interference potential of the device and
information about any special accessories needed to ensure FCC compliance must be
included in its instruction manual. The manufacturer (or importer) is responsible for
having the compliance label produced, and for having it affixed to each device that is
marketed or imported. The wording for the compliance label and the information
statement regarding interference problems is included in Part 15. Verified devices
must be uniquely identified. However, they may not be labelled with an FCC ID or in
a manner that could be confused with an FCC ID.

Once the report showing compliance is in the manufacturer's (importer's) files, the
compliance label has been attached to the device, and the information statement has
been included in the instructions, marketing of the device may begin.

If the FCC info is not on the Batteroo shield, it would seem the Batteroo is being marketed with no claim to FCC compliance (in spite of their website) and from my understanding of the FCC rules, it is probably required in the US because the Batteroo/Batteriser cannot claim to be in any one of the exempt categories.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on February 04, 2017, 05:15:47 pm

Proof (as if it were needed) that Bob is just trying to silence his customers rather than support them ...

(http://i.imgur.com/Z9JCq9v.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on February 05, 2017, 09:19:17 pm

Farid has made a video where he demonstrates that Batteroo doesn't work... :-DD

https://youtu.be/VTkOv1Kph84

He switched it on twice and each time it came on at full brightness for a couple of seconds then flickered and dimmed to an unusable level. He clumsily tried to hide the failure by tilting the mirror away from the camera.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on February 05, 2017, 09:43:42 pm

Wow, that is a terrible product demo.  :-DD
He also catches his finger on the pointy end when inserting the first one back in and says "Ow!" at 0:51  :box:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on February 05, 2017, 09:57:06 pm

"Ow" :-DD :palm:

I wonder who will win $500 this month?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on February 05, 2017, 10:18:11 pm

Fail so hard!  :palm: :palm: :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on February 05, 2017, 10:33:23 pm

I've now seen the light  ::)  and noticed that as soon as the light started to flicker his thumb went directly over onto the batteries possibly in an effort to apply pressure which could indicate that there was an intermittent battery contact, It is anyone's guess as to whether an intermittent contact was in fact the cause of the lights failure in the first place and perhaps the batteries only needed a slight movement or rotation to work correctly, I have a stack of gadgets where this contact problem frequently occurs and I wouldn't doubt that other people do as well.

The sleeves may have in fact brought the light back to life and sort of worked as intended but these people seem to derive pleasure by leaving everything else wide open for question and criticism, or they are just too plain stupid to see this, silly dimwits.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 05, 2017, 11:40:43 pm

Quote from: Blocco on February 05, 2017, 09:19:17 pm

Farid has made a video where he demonstrates that Batteroo doesn't work... :-DD

https://youtu.be/VTkOv1Kph84

He switched it on twice and each time it came on at full brightness for a couple of seconds then flickered and dimmed to an unusable level. He clumsily tried to hide the failure by tilting the mirror away from the camera.

That's hilarious!  :-DD

"It's work so it's a good investment".
Of course it bloody "works", it's a boost converter.
Wow, when you have to get your family member to do a video demoing you must be getting desperate.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on February 06, 2017, 01:04:46 am

Quote from: EEVblog on February 05, 2017, 11:40:43 pm

Wow, when you have to get your family member to do a video demoing you must be getting desperate.

Saves them paying the guy with the accordion $500.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on February 06, 2017, 02:03:05 am

Well I knew that finding 1 product per month that the batteriser improves would be a tough challenge, but that's ridiculous.  :horse:  ... but fun.  ^-^

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on February 06, 2017, 06:42:52 am

Quote from: EEVblog on February 05, 2017, 11:40:43 pm

Wow, when you have to get your family member to do a video demoing you must be getting desperate.

Maybe he is just trying to help. But Bob Roohparvar might be not amused. Ouch! :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on February 06, 2017, 09:32:54 am

I thought he's a Doctor of Pastoral Sciences? Surely he only needs to give the batteries some comforting words in a soothing voice to make them good again?

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on February 06, 2017, 09:44:10 am

Quote from: EEVblog on February 05, 2017, 11:40:43 pm

That's hilarious!  :-DD

I find it most hilarious when he puts the first batteriser in the slot at 0:52 and pinches his finger and even shouts out "AU"
What a funny family
 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on February 06, 2017, 11:35:47 am

Video downloaded before the other Rooh inevitably makes him remove it for making Batteroo look stupid.

If need be, it can be re-uploaded.

 ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: free_electron on February 06, 2017, 01:34:50 pm

Quote from: samgab on January 30, 2017, 09:27:34 pm

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck... What's that sound a duck makes again?

You can pick from today's menu :

Duck with Pineapple
Duck with Cherries
Duck Surprise.

What is Duck surprise ?
Duck without pineapple or cherries

What if you don't like duck ?
then you are rather stuck and out of luck ...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tszaboo on February 07, 2017, 10:29:40 am

http://eu.mouser.com/new/RECOM/recom-power-r-78s-converter/ (http://eu.mouser.com/new/RECOM/recom-power-r-78s-converter/)
RECOM Power R-78S 0.1A SIP4 Single Output DC-DC Converter features an input voltage range of 0.65V to 3.15V and runs from single-cell batteries. The voltage range of the R-78S means that alkaline, NiCd, NiMH, zinc-carbon, or lithium chemistry cells can be used to generate a stable 3.3V output. This 3.3V output can power microprocessors, WLAN/Bluetooth® modules, and Internet of Things (IoT) systems. R-78S also provides high efficiency (93%) and low standby consumption (7µA input current in standby), extending battery lifetimes.

"Wow it must be using the batteriser® technology"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on February 07, 2017, 11:00:00 am

Quote from: NANDBlog on February 07, 2017, 10:29:40 am

http://eu.mouser.com/new/RECOM/recom-power-r-78s-converter/ (http://eu.mouser.com/new/RECOM/recom-power-r-78s-converter/)
RECOM Power R-78S 0.1A SIP4 Single Output DC-DC Converter features an input voltage range of 0.65V to 3.15V and runs from single-cell batteries. The voltage range of the R-78S means that alkaline, NiCd, NiMH, zinc-carbon, or lithium chemistry cells can be used to generate a stable 3.3V output. This 3.3V output can power microprocessors, WLAN/Bluetooth® modules, and Internet of Things (IoT) systems. R-78S also provides high efficiency (93%) and low standby consumption (7µA input current in standby), extending battery lifetimes.

"Wow it must be using the batteriser® technology"

This one costs ten times less and can produce 5V DC output from only 0.9V battery input voltage, it must be made of 100% pure unicorn poop or something:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=5v+dc+booster+0.9v (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=5v+dc+booster+0.9v)

They work, too! I used one to charge my smartphone 8 times from a single Duracell AA.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on February 07, 2017, 04:12:25 pm

Just thought I'd share this graphic.

It's a composite with no real attempt at accuracy of scales, which is why I have removed any numerical references.  It is just to illustrate the battery level indicator issue.  The axes are essentially Voltage over Time, but don't try comparing one curve with another - other than the amount of time spent in each of the battery indicator levels.

I have arbitrarily assigned 5 levels.  3 green from high to medium, 1 yellow 'warning' level and a red 'critical' level.

The blue line is, obviously, a typical battery discharge curve.

The black line is an 'ideal' converter - with good regulation.  I included this because this is the sort of expectation that existed in the absence of any data from Batteroo.  There was a long time where this was the only game in town - so it is relevant for understanding discussion during that time.

The red line is an actual Batteroo sleeve result I pinched from one of the charts posted here.

Image is Superceded
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=290934;image)

Thought it might be a useful illustration.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on February 07, 2017, 05:23:37 pm

Quote from: Brumby on February 07, 2017, 04:12:25 pm

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=290811;image)

Thought it might be a useful illustration.....

For a general audience I'd take issue with the description 'ideal converter'. I know what you mean, but the average member of the public (AMOTP) would take 'ideal' to mean 'what we really want' rather than 'theoretically perfect'. To an AMOTP an ideal converter would smoothly handle both the 'extending battery life' issue and 'making the battery level indicator do what I expect' issue. A better, if wordy, tag would be 'theoretically perfect converter' but I'm sure a few minutes thought would yield something a bit less clunky-sounding than that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on February 08, 2017, 12:35:55 am

Quote from: Cerebus on February 07, 2017, 05:23:37 pm

For a general audience I'd take issue with the description 'ideal converter'. I know what you mean, but the average member of the public (AMOTP) would take 'ideal' to mean 'what we really want' rather than 'theoretically perfect'.

I would just say "Typical DC-DC Converter".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on February 08, 2017, 04:06:28 am

Thought about it - and have come up with this wording.  I used this to help clarify the fact that the early discussions were based on a typical design concept.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=290938;image)

Wording aside, I think it shows the battery level issue pretty well.  (I know it's not perfect - but it doesn't aim to be - just adequate for the job.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on February 08, 2017, 04:55:28 am

Quote from: EEVblog on February 05, 2017, 11:40:43 pm

Quote from: Blocco on February 05, 2017, 09:19:17 pm

https://youtu.be/VTkOv1Kph84

That's hilarious!  :-DD

Surprisingly he has been replying to comments sounding like a petulant teenager.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 08, 2017, 05:12:41 am

Quote from: Hensingler on February 08, 2017, 04:55:28 am

Surprisingly he has been replying to comments sounding like a petulant teenager.

LOL
(http://i.imgur.com/3KNwXH6.png)

"I don't care who made it" as if he's trying to make out he's not related to them!

More:
(http://i.imgur.com/e670P4a.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 08, 2017, 05:17:03 am

Even when the Battriser is done and dusted, it keeps delivering comedy gold!
(http://i.imgur.com/cPtQ384.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 08, 2017, 05:26:58 am

 ;D

(http://i.imgur.com/vexz7J6.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on February 08, 2017, 08:18:34 am

Crikey, on the one hand calls her a pathetic moron and then accuses her of having a antisocial personality disorder? really?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on February 08, 2017, 08:53:55 am

I think he might have been looking in that mirror of his.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on February 08, 2017, 09:07:14 am

For the continuing record ...

(http://i.imgur.com/GFHixRB.png)

No doubt these investor comments will get deleted soon, as usual.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tszaboo on February 08, 2017, 02:58:38 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on February 08, 2017, 05:12:41 am

Quote from: Hensingler on February 08, 2017, 04:55:28 am

Surprisingly he has been replying to comments sounding like a petulant teenager.

LOL

"I don't care who made it" as if he's trying to make out he's not related to them!

More:

I dont know what kind of moron do you have to be to save 50 dollars a year on rechargeable batteries.
50 dollars, at the current 12 dollar for 48 AA Amazonbasic, is 200 batteries. A year.
When do you think is the right time to buy a good bunch of rechargeable batteries?
Considering that the betteriser is more expensive than the re-branded Eneloops?? Considering that they dont work in real life situations, unlike the secondary batteries??

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on February 08, 2017, 05:07:12 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on February 06, 2017, 01:04:46 am

Saves them paying the guy with the accordion $500.

Except that the T&C's exclude him:

Quote from: T&Cs

This Contest is also not open to employees or independent contractors, or immediate family members (spouses, domestic partners, parents, grandparents, siblings, children, and grandchildren)

Shucks.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on February 09, 2017, 03:20:19 am

Quote from: daveake on February 08, 2017, 05:07:12 pm

Except that the T&C's exclude him:

Quote from: T&Cs

This Contest is also not open to employees or independent contractors, or immediate family members (spouses, domestic partners, parents, grandparents, siblings, children, and grandchildren)

Shucks.

You think Batteroo are any more likely to deliver on this claim than all their others?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on February 09, 2017, 09:15:42 pm

Another batteroo video, this time with the weirdest product tested?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TgAm_n3ImQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TgAm_n3ImQ)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jc101 on February 09, 2017, 09:21:26 pm

Is it me or does the one with the batterisers show rapidly changing readings compared to the one without?
If they are looking at the same test wheel should they not read the same?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BMF on February 09, 2017, 09:54:10 pm

Quote from: jc101 on February 09, 2017, 09:21:26 pm

Is it me or does the one with the batterisers show rapidly changing readings compared to the one without?
If they are looking at the same test wheel should they not read the same?

That's a dumb video for them to make. They should really warn against using them in a medical device. And that voice, she's sounds sarcastic the whole video.   

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on February 09, 2017, 09:55:00 pm

Wow are they still at it? Honestly, who gives a crap anymore?  :horse:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on February 09, 2017, 10:02:20 pm

Here's the manual:

http://www.amperorblog.com/doc-lib/CMS50DL.pdf (http://www.amperorblog.com/doc-lib/CMS50DL.pdf)

The makers claim 24 hours of battery life with continuous use which is roughly what Batteroo reported so it would probably run for years on a pair of AAA cells with normal intermittent use, although I don't know how people "normally" use these things I can't imagine anyone using it for more than a few minutes a day.

Taking into account the cost of AAA cells compared to Batteroo sleeves, even if the run time is doubled, it's difficult to see how anyone could save any money by using the sleeves in this device.

e.g. 2x Batteroo sleeves cost $5.00 and 2x alkaline AAA cells cost $0.5

If we assume the oximeter is used for 4 minutes per day, the cells should last for 1 year without Batteroo. Therefore, the device costs just $5 per decade to run. Even if fitting Batteroo sleeves were to double the run time they would also double the cost so there can be no savings to be made for at least 20 years.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 09, 2017, 10:53:22 pm

I hadn't noticed the history of the Wikipedia page, seems to be quite the editing war, with at one point a user by the name of "LakshmiNarasimhan batteriser" editing it.
This guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdcSBMMD0QE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdcSBMMD0QE)

Clearly he's involved with Batteroo
https://twitter.com/lakshmiusa (https://twitter.com/lakshmiusa)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Batteroo_Boost&offset=&limit=500&action=history (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Batteroo_Boost&offset=&limit=500&action=history)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on February 10, 2017, 12:23:05 am

Quote from: BMF on February 09, 2017, 09:54:10 pm

Quote from: jc101 on February 09, 2017, 09:21:26 pm

Is it me or does the one with the batterisers show rapidly changing readings compared to the one without?
If they are looking at the same test wheel should they not read the same?

That's a dumb video for them to make. They should really warn against using them in a medical device. And that voice, she's sounds sarcastic the whole video.

Worse still, an SpO₂ of around 40%, as shown on both meters, would only be found on a corpse or soon-to-be corpse - indicating that they have done a terrible job of simulating a patient. They don't seem to understand that these pulse oximeters work by comparing the ratio of transmission of infrared and visible red light. An SpO₂ of 95-100% is normal, 90% or less is hypoxia, and an SpO₂ of 80% or less requires urgent medical intervention to prevent organ damage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on February 10, 2017, 02:43:04 am

Quote from: Blocco on February 09, 2017, 10:02:20 pm

Here's the manual:

http://www.amperorblog.com/doc-lib/CMS50DL.pdf (http://www.amperorblog.com/doc-lib/CMS50DL.pdf)

The makers claim 24 hours of battery life with continuous use which is roughly what Batteroo reported so it would probably run for years on a pair of AAA cells with normal intermittent use, although I don't know how people "normally" use these things I can't imagine anyone using it for more than a few minutes a day.

Taking into account the cost of AAA cells compared to Batteroo sleeves, even if the run time is doubled, it's difficult to see how anyone could save any money by using the sleeves in this device.

e.g. 2x Batteroo sleeves cost $5.00 and 2x alkaline AAA cells cost $0.5

If we assume the oximeter is used for 4 minutes per day, the cells should last for 1 year without Batteroo. Therefore, the device costs just $5 per decade to run. Even if fitting Batteroo sleeves were to double the run time they would also double the cost so there can be no savings to be made for at least 20 years.

There are two ways people use these oximeters. Either a quick test that uses so little power that you wouldn't bother with a Batteriser, or long logging tests - perhaps overnight while you are sleeping. Perhaps to see if you have signs of Sleep Apnoea or if you are recovering from Pnuemonia, to check your O₂ levels are OK. If you are taking the trouble to do a long test, you want to know the meter will last the night. If it is just one test, you will put in fresh batteries. If it is a regular test, the easiest solution is to put in freshly charged NiMH cells for each test.

The problem with using a Batteroo is that you never know when it will stop working. Also, at the current these meters are using, the Batteriser will be cycling in and out of sleep mode, so you can get 200mV p-p noise from each battery that might ruin the accuracy of the meter.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on February 10, 2017, 06:46:22 am

Quote from: jc101 on February 09, 2017, 09:21:26 pm

Is it me or does the one with the batterisers show rapidly changing readings compared to the one without?
If they are looking at the same test wheel should they not read the same?

It shows even no pulse reading at all with the sleeves for some time, if you watch from 1:32. But this might be because it is positioned differently. As with their previous tests, they make the same fundamental mistake to use two different units instead of the same unit and in the same place. On purpose? Maybe the device without the sleeve has an additional parallel resistor? :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on February 10, 2017, 07:30:43 am

Quote from: EEVblog on February 09, 2017, 10:53:22 pm

I hadn't noticed the history of the Wikipedia page, seems to be quite the editing war, with at one point a user by the name of "LakshmiNarasimhan batteriser" editing it.

Clearly he's involved with Batteroo

That was the guy who gave the Batteriser fan boy club a kick in the arse for stating stuff they shouldn't, that was way back and they deleted the imgur image shortly after discovery as always.

Thread Reference. 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg746756/#msg746756 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg746756/#msg746756)

 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on February 10, 2017, 07:36:24 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on February 10, 2017, 06:46:22 am

It shows even no pulse reading at all with the sleeves for some time, if you watch from 1:32. But this might be because it is positioned differently. As with their previous tests, they make the same fundamental mistake to use two different units instead of the same unit and in the same place. On purpose? Maybe the device without the sleeve has an additional parallel resistor? :-//

It is hard to tell from the video. The datasheet specifies <25mA current draw, at least 24h of operation so 27h is plausible. But they skipped a lot of images: They talk about 5000 frames, but only show about 500 in the video. They could have faked the result (by removing many frames of the first part but keeping them at the second part with only the Batteriser one working or by replacing the batteries at some time during the test) or the result could be totally legit because of a high turn off threshold of the device.
They must be working really hard to find devices that benefit from the Batteriser.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on February 10, 2017, 08:45:39 am

I doubt they're faking the tests - if they were they'd pick more common devices to test instead some obscure crap.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on February 10, 2017, 10:02:44 am

The datasheet gives a supply voltage range of 2.6 - 3.6V so it looks like the cut-off voltage may be high for this device.

I don't think the test is faked, they have just chosen another very obscure device that most people have never heard of and which, in normal use i.e. not running continuously until the battery dies, may not achieve any economic benefit from having the Batteroo sleeves fitted.

To quote the manual:

"The Fingertip Pulse Oximeter is .......... intended for the spot-check of oxygensaturation of arterial hemoglobin (SpO2) and the pulse rate of adult and pediatric patients........This device is not intended for continuous monitoring."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on February 10, 2017, 10:50:20 am

I tested a similar color and form-factor Oxymeter, but different display. Low battery indicator comes on at 2.43 volts and it shuts down at 2.36V. AS the voltage drops, the current increases but when it reaches 2.4V the current starts to drop. So there is some kind of compensation for battery voltage in the devices - either a switching regulator, or it increases the LED on time as the voltage drops. Below 2.4V, this regulation starts to give up. Current was about 14mA at 3V and this drops to 10mA if you are logging and the display blanks.

If all these devices are based on the same chipset, then they probably all shut down between 2.3V and 2.4V. There is no doubt they have targeted a device with a high shutdown voltage. Based on the video and the 14mA current of my device, only about 380mAh is extracted from the plain batteries.

Now the problem with the Batteroo-powered device is that just before it shutdown, the low-battery indicator was off - so it shut down without a warning. Without the Batteroo, the low battery warning came on a long time before it shutdown - as it is designed to do.

Is it better to get longer life, or to be warned before the device shuts down? I would prefer the warning.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on February 10, 2017, 11:00:51 am

Quote from: amspire on February 10, 2017, 10:50:20 am

Now the problem with the Batteroo-powered device is that just before it shutdown, the low-battery indicator was off - so it shut down without a warning. Without the Batteroo, the low battery warning came on a long time before it shutdown - as it is designed to do.

If you watch closely, the low battery indicator comes first on at 1:58, but flickers only for a few frames (maybe because it is flashing but the video shows only 1 image every 200s, so it probably misses the flashing indicator in most frames), then it flashes again at 2:02 and then at 2:06. It shuts down at 2:10.
If the flashes are there but only not visible in the video, the low batt indicator works much better than expected when using the Batterieser: It is on for 12s, at 30fps and 200s per frame that is about 20h before shutting down.
Comparing this to the discharge curve of a Batteriser measured by some members of this forum, 20h is a very long period for being in the low batt region before shutting down.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Zbig on February 10, 2017, 11:05:43 am

Quote from: EEVblog on February 09, 2017, 10:53:22 pm

I hadn't noticed the history of the Wikipedia page, seems to be quite the editing war, with at one point a user by the name of "LakshmiNarasimhan batteriser" editing it.
This guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdcSBMMD0QE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdcSBMMD0QE)

Clearly he's involved with Batteroo
https://twitter.com/lakshmiusa (https://twitter.com/lakshmiusa)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Batteroo_Boost&offset=&limit=500&action=history (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Batteroo_Boost&offset=&limit=500&action=history)

I wonder how would the guys behind Plex software appreciate being associated with this crap.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bitwelder on February 10, 2017, 07:29:32 pm

Quote from: Zbig on February 10, 2017, 11:05:43 am

Quote from: EEVblog on February 09, 2017, 10:53:22 pm

I hadn't noticed the history of the Wikipedia page, seems to be quite the editing war, with at one point a user by the name of "LakshmiNarasimhan batteriser" editing it.
This guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdcSBMMD0QE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdcSBMMD0QE)

Clearly he's involved with Batteroo
https://twitter.com/lakshmiusa (https://twitter.com/lakshmiusa)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Batteroo_Boost&offset=&limit=500&action=history (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Batteroo_Boost&offset=&limit=500&action=history)

I wonder how would the guys behind Plex software appreciate being associated with this crap.

I was also wondering why if somebody is planning to show up and talk to the whole youtube-sphere about batteries would choose to wear a Plex t-shirt.  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on February 10, 2017, 07:57:04 pm

Quote from: bitwelder on February 10, 2017, 07:29:32 pm

I was also wondering why if somebody is planning to show up and talk to the whole youtube-sphere about batteries would choose to wear a Plex t-shirt.  :-//

Someone needs to send him a Batteroo T shirt.

Fill in the ...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on February 11, 2017, 12:39:33 am

They just re-uploaded the apple keyboard video, still the worst "proof" video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGqp8VyDHeo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGqp8VyDHeo)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on February 11, 2017, 02:38:44 am

 It may be BS like all the rest, but at least on the keyboard demo it looks (to the uniformed) like it actually works. Unlike the flickering light which doesn't take any sort of analysis to see is a total fail.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on February 11, 2017, 04:43:55 am

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on February 11, 2017, 12:39:33 am

They just re-uploaded the apple keyboard video, still the worst "proof" video

Funny enough I just bought an Apple wireless keyboard and they come with internal li-ion batteries now...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on February 12, 2017, 03:18:12 am

I'm afraid I've been carefully recharging primary batteries for decades, of course they can only take a gentle partial charge.

About a month ago my LCD clock's display became noticeably faint, and a day later it was completely blank!
So I took the single AA out, a cheapo alkaline, measured it at 0.9V and gave it a small charge of 60mA for 25 minutes. That was enough to bring it's no load voltage up to 1.44V. I could tell by the LCD's contrast that it's not going off anytime soon but today, a month later, I measured it anyway still at 1.40V!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on February 12, 2017, 03:25:46 am

Oh look, a team of researches is using a boost converter properly, don't tell the batterpoo guys or they'll decide to pivot into the patent troll business!  :-DD

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/gut-juice-could-power-the-next-generation-of-health-gadgets/

Quote

Swapping citric acid for gut acid, the researchers created their own tiny Zn-Cu cells using cheap, commercially available, bio-compatible materials. The first device was for continuous, wireless temperature monitoring. It consisted of a microcontroller that included a radio frequency transmitter and a temperature sensor (among other things) and an "energy-harvesting boost-converter integrated circuit," which "took energy directly from the Zn–Cu cell at low voltage (0.1–0.2 V) and boosted it onto a temporary storage capacitor at a higher voltage (2.2–3.3 V) for use by the circuits.”

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on February 12, 2017, 05:00:08 am

Quote from: djos on February 12, 2017, 03:25:46 am

Oh look, a team of researches is using a boost converter properly, don't tell the batterpoo guys or they'll decide to pivot into the patent troll business!  :-DD

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/gut-juice-could-power-the-next-generation-of-health-gadgets/

Quote

Swapping citric acid for gut acid, the researchers created their own tiny Zn-Cu cells using cheap, commercially available, bio-compatible materials. The first device was for continuous, wireless temperature monitoring. It consisted of a microcontroller that included a radio frequency transmitter and a temperature sensor (among other things) and an "energy-harvesting boost-converter integrated circuit," which "took energy directly from the Zn–Cu cell at low voltage (0.1–0.2 V) and boosted it onto a temporary storage capacitor at a higher voltage (2.2–3.3 V) for use by the circuits.”

Not sure how I feel about the electrochemical process that would be going on in my gut.

But then, I suppose this is still on topic .... boost converter solutions that are hard to swallow.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on February 12, 2017, 05:24:07 am

Quote from: Brumby on February 12, 2017, 05:00:08 am

But then, I suppose this is still on topic .... boost converter solutions that are hard to swallow.

 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: trophosphere on February 12, 2017, 05:28:11 am

Quote from: Brumby on February 12, 2017, 05:00:08 am

Quote from: djos on February 12, 2017, 03:25:46 am

Oh look, a team of researches is using a boost converter properly, don't tell the batterpoo guys or they'll decide to pivot into the patent troll business!  :-DD

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/gut-juice-could-power-the-next-generation-of-health-gadgets/

Quote

Swapping citric acid for gut acid, the researchers created their own tiny Zn-Cu cells using cheap, commercially available, bio-compatible materials. The first device was for continuous, wireless temperature monitoring. It consisted of a microcontroller that included a radio frequency transmitter and a temperature sensor (among other things) and an "energy-harvesting boost-converter integrated circuit," which "took energy directly from the Zn–Cu cell at low voltage (0.1–0.2 V) and boosted it onto a temporary storage capacitor at a higher voltage (2.2–3.3 V) for use by the circuits.”

Not sure how I feel about the electrochemical process that would be going on in my gut.

But then, I suppose this is still on topic .... boost converter solutions that are hard to swallow.

Sorry for being off topic:

I'd say the idea of using stomach acid is more of a solution looking for a problem. The "battery" only works while the device is in the stomach because the acid is neutralized when it gets into the intestines due to bicarbonate released by the pancreas. Overall, the device will spend more time in the intestines than the stomach itself. Add to the fact that children swallow batteries all the time and most of the time there is no harm - they just poop it out. The only big danger is if the battery gets lodged in an area such as the esophagus where it could cause erosion leading to perforation. Generally speaking, after a battery passes through the pyloric sphicter it is more like "meh".

To try to tie it in with the Batteroo... this idea is much like the Batteroo in that its usefulness is very limited. If they can get the device to stay in the stomach then maybe - perhaps applications such as a gastric pH sensor, gastric motility/volume monitoring, "smart" G-tube, or even monitoring H. Pylori though it would probably be easier/cheaper just to test stool for antigens. Still easier to just use a battery as it would be less complicated and there would be less points of failure.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on February 12, 2017, 10:53:14 pm

Another pointless video containing unjustified claims about saving money and the environment.....
https://youtu.be/q-SF9EvPC68

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: nugglix on February 13, 2017, 05:44:05 am

This guy can't even distinguish between a start-up and crowd-funding.  |O
Don't even try to understand his pronunciation of Batteroo.

But hey, Germany now has an official batterboo monkey.

Luckily this guy has only 2 videos out.

Btw, the last link below the video is quite okay -- from our point of view.  :P

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on February 13, 2017, 08:32:11 am

The fact that he owns a Rittal Key (which he uses to open the lamp) would suggest that he's an electrician. He should know better.

And what's a "Bateroh"??  :D

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ysjoelfir on February 13, 2017, 09:02:32 am

Yikes!  :palm: The huge amount of "äääähs" he says makes watching very painfull for me - besides the stupid Batteroo claims he repeats like a lemming that was paid by "Bateruh"...
I mean, seriously, I couldn't bear his sleepy voice any longer than one and a half minute so I decided to jump through the videos. Regardless where I clicked, every time I heard only "äääh". o.o Coincidence? Bad Karma?
And what kind of Tutorial is this supposed to be? How to place a battery inside a Bateruh? How to repeat marketing phrases that are totaly wrong? How to spread the word of evil?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on February 13, 2017, 10:13:15 am

Quote from: StillTrying on February 12, 2017, 03:18:12 am

I'm afraid I've been carefully recharging primary batteries for decades, of course they can only take a gentle partial charge.

Still a lot more than you'll get with a Batteroo though.

(a LOT more...)

If Batteroo want to do something useful they could make a gadget that 'rejuvenates' alkalines (ie. recharges them a little bit).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on February 13, 2017, 10:50:34 am

Quote from: Fungus on February 13, 2017, 10:13:15 am

If Batteroo want to do something useful they could make a gadget that 'rejuvenates' alkalines (ie. recharges them a little bit).

Please don't. They already have a product which causes batteries to leak, short out and overheat not to mention a battery sleeve which can maim a person upon insertion. I'm sure the Fire Brigade won't appreciate an increase in house fires thanks to Batteroo.

However if they wanted to enter the fireworks industry, perhaps there's a place for them there? Special low voltage igniter anyone?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on February 13, 2017, 11:14:22 am

Quote from: Halcyon on February 13, 2017, 10:50:34 am

Quote from: Fungus on February 13, 2017, 10:13:15 am

If Batteroo want to do something useful they could make a gadget that 'rejuvenates' alkalines (ie. recharges them a little bit).

Please don't. They already have a product which causes batteries to leak, short out and overheat not to mention a battery sleeve which can maim a person upon insertion. I'm sure the Fire Brigade won't appreciate an increase in house fires thanks to Batteroo.

However if they wanted to enter the fireworks industry, perhaps there's a place for them there? Special low voltage igniter anyone?

I've got a charger that does nicad nimh and alkaline batteries but since discovering 40 cell bulk packs of Duracell AA & AAA Batteries for $19.99 on catch of the day a few years ago, I no longer bother with it.

 https://www.catchoftheday.com.au/event/59811/product/duracell-aa-batteries-40-pack-119526/ (https://www.catchoftheday.com.au/event/59811/product/duracell-aa-batteries-40-pack-119526/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on February 13, 2017, 05:17:13 pm

Quote from: Ysjoelfir on February 13, 2017, 09:02:32 am

And what kind of Tutorial is this supposed to be? How to place a battery inside a Bateruh?

He didn't get this right either: stupid idea to place the sleeves first in the product, then the battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Nerull on February 13, 2017, 08:28:11 pm

Quote from: djos on February 13, 2017, 11:14:22 am

Quote from: Halcyon on February 13, 2017, 10:50:34 am

Quote from: Fungus on February 13, 2017, 10:13:15 am

If Batteroo want to do something useful they could make a gadget that 'rejuvenates' alkalines (ie. recharges them a little bit).

Please don't. They already have a product which causes batteries to leak, short out and overheat not to mention a battery sleeve which can maim a person upon insertion. I'm sure the Fire Brigade won't appreciate an increase in house fires thanks to Batteroo.

However if they wanted to enter the fireworks industry, perhaps there's a place for them there? Special low voltage igniter anyone?

I've got a charger that does nicad nimh and alkaline batteries but since discovering 40 cell bulk packs of Duracell AA & AAA Batteries for $19.99 on catch of the day a few years ago, I no longer bother with it.

 https://www.catchoftheday.com.au/event/59811/product/duracell-aa-batteries-40-pack-119526/ (https://www.catchoftheday.com.au/event/59811/product/duracell-aa-batteries-40-pack-119526/)

That charger is likely intended for rechargeable alkaline batteries, which are designed not to leak. Normal alkaline are not, and while it is possible to recharge them, it is much more likely to make a corrosive mess.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on February 14, 2017, 12:00:07 am

Has anyone else noticed the large number of views the pro Batteroo videos have received in just a few days? e.g. Farid's awful video is at 9656, the clock guy is at 9491, accordion guy is at 9331 and they all have a very similar number of likes at around 170 and many of the other pro Batteroo videos have very similar figures as well. The re-released Apple keyboard demo was only published 3 days ago but look at the figures, 9115 views and 172 likes. The oximeter, published 4 days ago and already at 9193 views and 161 likes etc. etc....

Are Batteroo up to their old tricks again? Surely not.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 14, 2017, 12:05:02 am

Quote from: Blocco on February 14, 2017, 12:00:07 am

Has anyone else noticed the large number of views the pro Batteroo videos have received in just a few days? e.g. Farid's awful video is at 9656, the clock guy is at 9491, accordion guy is at 9331 and they all have a very similar number of likes at around 170 and many of the other pro Batteroo videos have very similar figures as well. The re-released Apple keyboard demo was only published 3 days ago but look at the figures, 9115 views and 172 likes. The oximeter, published 4 days ago and already at 9193 views and 161 likes etc. etc....

Are Batteroo up to their old tricks again? Surely not.

Yep, guaranteed.
No possible way to get that traffic otherwise on those videos, and the view numbers are almost identical. They are paying for views, how pathetic.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on February 14, 2017, 09:29:24 am

Bob is still deleting the stronger complaints, and auto-responding to everything else.  Latest, for the record:

(http://i.imgur.com/tywW9yr.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on February 14, 2017, 05:51:37 pm

The Batteroo YouTube view counts are still increasing rapidly. What's also interesting are the clusters of moronic positive comments that have suddenly appeared and all at the same time (7 hours ago).

(http://i.imgur.com/ioCH9XY.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/OHmQgxS.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Vuh4Yba.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on February 14, 2017, 06:30:09 pm

Another re-upload, 20 minuts = 3 views, just to keep taps on the inrush of views
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBKnSRVQA64 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBKnSRVQA64)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on February 14, 2017, 06:52:30 pm

Quote from: Blocco on February 14, 2017, 05:51:37 pm

What's also interesting are the clusters of moronic positive comments that have suddenly appeared and all at the same time (7 hours ago).

If you look at some of the accounts you will see they liked many of the same videos at the same time. Quite obviously fake accounts registering fake views and likes. If you look at the other videos they liked you will find many more moronic positive comments from other obviously fake accounts.

Don't understand why google can't be a bit more active shutting down such accounts. Do theses accounts fetch adverts which allows google to benefit from the fraud?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on February 14, 2017, 07:38:14 pm

Top marks to "Frank Cordova" though, for slipping in a Dave phrase!

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on February 14, 2017, 10:24:28 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on February 14, 2017, 06:30:09 pm

Another re-upload, 20 minuts = 3 views, just to keep taps on the inrush of views
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBKnSRVQA64 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBKnSRVQA64)

Down-voted and commented, bet my comment will be deleted shortly!

Quote

Complete con, Batteroo wastes battery capacity because it isn't 100% efficient in its power conversion (nothing ever is)! Total Con job!?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 14, 2017, 10:33:23 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on February 14, 2017, 06:30:09 pm

Another re-upload, 20 minuts = 3 views, just to keep taps on the inrush of views
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBKnSRVQA64 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBKnSRVQA64)

I think I've got to at least buy one of those GPS's and bust that video wide open now that I have the AA versions.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Avacee on February 14, 2017, 11:18:01 pm

Is that the same GPS video re-uploaded that Technology Catalyst debunked?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw_jFIPxePc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw_jFIPxePc)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on February 14, 2017, 11:18:56 pm

Why isn't anyone interested in discussing the two possible failure modes of the Batteroo in multiple battery cell applications that could lead to a fused IC and a shorted battery?

The testing for these problems is much easier then the battery life testing and it can be done non-destructively.

If you buy Batteroos thinking it will make something run longer and instead it runs shorter, it ultimately is no big disaster. You just waste a bit of money. If you put out a video showing the Batteroo life shorter, Batteroo can put out 10 videos showing a much longer life.

If the sleeve can short out a cell in your $1000 device, that could be very nasty. If you can show that the device is inherently unreliable, that is very hard for Batteroo to counter. I just think it is worth someone spending a few hours on this.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 15, 2017, 07:28:21 am

Quote from: Avacee on February 14, 2017, 11:18:01 pm

Is that the same GPS video re-uploaded that Technology Catalyst debunked?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw_jFIPxePc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw_jFIPxePc)

Yep, but would be cool to redo it with actual Batterisers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 15, 2017, 07:28:53 am

Quote from: amspire on February 14, 2017, 11:18:56 pm

If the sleeve can short out a cell in your $1000 device, that could be very nasty. If you can show that the device is inherently unreliable, that is very hard for Batteroo to counter. I just think it is worth someone spending a few hours on this.

It's never "a few hours"  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on February 15, 2017, 07:32:59 am

Quote from: amspire on February 14, 2017, 11:18:56 pm

Why isn't anyone interested in discussing the two possible failure modes of the Batteroo in multiple battery cell applications that could lead to a fused IC and a shorted battery?

The testing for these problems is much easier then the battery life testing and it can be done non-destructively.

If you write down a simple test and the expected results for a safe product I'm sure someone will carry it out.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Avacee on February 15, 2017, 08:57:35 am

Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2017, 07:28:21 am

Yep, but would be cool to redo it with actual Batterisers.

Oh yeah - my mistake - he debunked the test not the innovative and patented batteroo boost technology  :-DD

I love the batteriser videos - this young player has learnt so much so much about batteries, testing methods, data interpretation and so much more.  :-+ :-+ :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on February 15, 2017, 09:07:35 am

Now for sale on Amazon Japan - https://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B01N4X1G9H (https://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B01N4X1G9H)

where it says:

Quote

We do not compensate for any damage using this product.

I'd like to see them try that in court after their device destroys someones expensive device.

(Edit) Just spotted this damning admission further down:

Quote

It may short-circuit and damage the equipment that uses the battery.

W T actual F ...

Dave

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on February 15, 2017, 09:39:24 am

Quote from: daveake on February 15, 2017, 09:07:35 am

(Edit) Just spotted this damning admission further down:

Quote

It may short-circuit and damage the equipment that uses the battery.

W T actual F ...

Dave

That sentence is supposed to go with the one above it.

My attempt at a rather literal translation (to make it look more like a cheap Chinese product :P):

Quote

Latest gadget created in America.
Batteroo (Batterizer) is a ultra low-profile sleeve shaped device installed on battery.
It can be inserted into the battery case of many machinery and tools using batteries.
There exists battery capacity not able to used sufficiently due to descent of voltage in second half of battery use.
Batteroo is the device in order to exhaust to the end the battery after the voltage descent and could only throw away until now.
When the voltage of the dry cell is regulated in the above case, it output the same electric current and when the voltage descends, a voltage up circuit maintains the prescribed voltage and shows battery performance until the last of the life.
Depending on the implement use, battery can maintain performance up to 3 ~ 6 times.

Please agree to the following instructions at the time of the purchase.
1. This product cannot be returned. After the purchase, it cannot be returned even if the size is not correct. It can attach to most battery and insert into many battery box, but not guarantee to support all battery and battery box.
2. The life span extension result of all battery and all devices using battery cannot be guaranteed. There may be case that the battery cannot show efficacy due to special characteristic of the device.
3. Please do not insert forcibly into battery box. The device and battery box may be damaged.
4. I do not compensate for any kind of damage in using this product. There is no compensation  without exception concerning damage to battery operated device.
5. When the size is not correct, please cancel use. Please confirm that there is not damage at the time of the arrival of the product.
6. Please do not use devices such as tweezers for insertion into battery box. There is possibility to cause short and damage battery operated device.
7. Exclusively for disposable batteries. When used for rechargeable batteries, it may reduce number of charge times and decrease battery life due to over discharge.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on February 15, 2017, 12:45:29 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on February 15, 2017, 07:28:53 am

Quote from: amspire on February 14, 2017, 11:18:56 pm

If the sleeve can short out a cell in your $1000 device, that could be very nasty. If you can show that the device is inherently unreliable, that is very hard for Batteroo to counter. I just think it is worth someone spending a few hours on this.

It's never "a few hours"  ;D

To see if it is vulnerable to latch-up probably takes 10 minutes. Put reverse current through the output diode and apply a current limited 1.6V across the battery terminal. May have to try different diode currents. This situation can happen when inserting the last Batteroo in a device that was still switched on.

The other problem is when one batteroo shuts down with a flat battery with other still running Batteroos, the current goes through the reverse substrate diode and will heat up the chip. As I mentioned before, you can determine the chip temperature versus current by looking at the change in diode voltage - about -2.2mV/C. If the reverse current heats up the chip dangerously at 500mA or 1A, then there is a real problem.

Sure you could do a long study, but first just find out if there might be a problem.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on February 16, 2017, 12:50:16 pm

Just a few deleted comments for the record

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on February 16, 2017, 06:10:11 pm

Well a few days have gone by, and this video has gone from less then 300 views to now 12.665 views, it however hasn't gotten any likes yet, but i guess it will have them soon to.
It is not normal to have total of 21 likes/dislikes (5 likes, 16 dislikes) to 12665 views
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBKnSRVQA64 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBKnSRVQA64)

EDIT: Just after posting this it now has 17.922 views, so that's 5000+ views in less then 20 minuts, pretty good for a video that got less the 1000 views a day
EDIT: Now up to 20.341 and with the almost 3000 views since last count it now has 5 likes and 19 dislikes, so yes definitely payed views, and now it is actually about 20.000 views they bought on this video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on February 17, 2017, 04:09:50 am

Days old fish rotting in the sun stink less than this  ^  ^  ^  ^

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on February 17, 2017, 10:27:53 am

Farid has entered the Batteroo video competition... :-DD

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLX2PNUk4NKGKoEAJjsqlp1pAX1gj7Efoj (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLX2PNUk4NKGKoEAJjsqlp1pAX1gj7Efoj)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on February 17, 2017, 10:36:26 am

I wonder if this is allowed according to their own rules:

https://www.batteroo.com/terms-conditions/?___store=default#contest (https://www.batteroo.com/terms-conditions/?___store=default#contest)

In case they change the webpage:

Quote

This Contest is also not open to employees or independent contractors, or immediate family members (spouses, domestic partners, parents, grandparents, siblings, children, and grandchildren) or those living in the same household of employees or independent contractors of any entity involved in any aspect of the Contest (including funding, judging or administration), and each of their respective parents, subsidiaries, affiliates, advisors, or advertising/promotion agencies.

PS: the text of the conditions is nearly an exact copy of the text here: http://www.thecheckdepot.com/contest/ (http://www.thecheckdepot.com/contest/) Either they just copied it, or they were asking the same lawyer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 17, 2017, 11:22:39 am

Quote from: Blocco on February 17, 2017, 10:27:53 am

Farid has entered the Batteroo video competition... :-DD
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLX2PNUk4NKGKoEAJjsqlp1pAX1gj7Efoj (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLX2PNUk4NKGKoEAJjsqlp1pAX1gj7Efoj)

Hilarious!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 17, 2017, 11:25:50 am

So fiddly it needs a "best practices" guide!
https://www.batteroo.com/blog/batteroo-boost-best-practices.html (https://www.batteroo.com/blog/batteroo-boost-best-practices.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: KouenHasuki on February 17, 2017, 11:34:29 am

Kind of been following this off and on  :-DD always worth a laugh..

Wonder how fast my comment will be removed from this one which has some paid likes

https://youtu.be/JGqp8VyDHeo

if its lost I posted this:
"No it doesn't... All your doing is fooling the software which is reading the voltage of the cells and calculating a percentage on that and since your "batteroo" just bumps the voltage back to 1.4v or so the software thinks there is more power left than there is as instead of a slow loss in voltage your device will just make it drop like a rock out of nowhere!?"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on February 17, 2017, 11:43:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2017, 11:25:50 am

So fiddly it needs a "best practices" guide!
https://www.batteroo.com/blog/batteroo-boost-best-practices.html (https://www.batteroo.com/blog/batteroo-boost-best-practices.html)

Well they did buy an award for Best Practices in the Field of Innovation Management Strategic Engineering Stakeholder Development or somesuch bollocks...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Zbig on February 17, 2017, 12:14:41 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2017, 11:25:50 am

So fiddly it needs a "best practices" guide!
https://www.batteroo.com/blog/batteroo-boost-best-practices.html (https://www.batteroo.com/blog/batteroo-boost-best-practices.html)

HEADLINE

I'm pretty sure they've even managed to get the "Lorem ipsum" wrong...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on February 17, 2017, 01:00:56 pm

Quote from: Zbig on February 17, 2017, 12:14:41 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2017, 11:25:50 am

So fiddly it needs a "best practices" guide!
https://www.batteroo.com/blog/batteroo-boost-best-practices.html (https://www.batteroo.com/blog/batteroo-boost-best-practices.html)

HEADLINE

I'm pretty sure they've even managed to get the "Lorem ipsum" wrong...

There is no right version, there are even generators which create such a text: http://www.lipsum.com (http://www.lipsum.com)
And they are still using the sleeves with the Batteriser text. But most importantly, they forgot to mention the need to put a plaster on your finger after the springs punctured it :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: voltlog on February 17, 2017, 01:42:25 pm

I left them a comment... I wonder how long before they block me from the channel & delete my comment..  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on February 17, 2017, 01:59:52 pm

Quote from: Delta on February 17, 2017, 11:43:29 am

Quote from: EEVblog on February 17, 2017, 11:25:50 am

So fiddly it needs a "best practices" guide!
https://www.batteroo.com/blog/batteroo-boost-best-practices.html (https://www.batteroo.com/blog/batteroo-boost-best-practices.html)

Well they did buy an award for Best Practices in the Field of Innovation Management Strategic Engineering Stakeholder Development or somesuch bollocks...

Oh, I thought the award was for "Unilateral orchidian height management"?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on February 17, 2017, 02:07:34 pm

Quote from: voltlog on February 17, 2017, 01:42:25 pm

I left them a comment... I wonder how long before they block me from the channel & delete my comment..  :-DD

It is only visible to you, they changed the settings for comments to "approved". That's tricky if you don't know it, like shadow-banning.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jancumps on February 17, 2017, 02:24:49 pm

Quote from: Blocco on February 14, 2017, 05:51:37 pm

The Batteroo YouTube view counts are still increasing rapidly. What's also interesting are the clusters of moronic positive comments that have suddenly appeared and all at the same time (7 hours ago).

(http://i.imgur.com/ioCH9XY.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/OHmQgxS.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Vuh4Yba.jpg)

ok. Who posted the winner winner chicken dinner comment?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: voltlog on February 17, 2017, 02:27:35 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on February 17, 2017, 02:07:34 pm

It is only visible to you, they changed the settings for comments to "approved". That's tricky if you don't know it, like shadow-banning.

Wow.. indeed shadow-banning.. So I guess my comment will never see the light  :-\
That should also mean they need to manually approve possibly hundreds of fake comments..

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on February 17, 2017, 03:06:24 pm

Quote from: voltlog on February 17, 2017, 02:27:35 pm

Wow.. indeed shadow-banning.. So I guess my comment will never see the light  :-\
That should also mean they need to manually approve possibly hundreds of fake comments..

I think there is a "select all", right beside the trash can :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on February 17, 2017, 03:15:44 pm

Quote from: voltlog on February 17, 2017, 02:27:35 pm

Wow.. indeed shadow-banning.. So I guess my comment will never see the light  :-\
That should also mean they need to manually approve possibly hundreds of fake comments..

No, it will never show up for the public.  That's why they had to start buying positive comments and likes.

On the first few videos, such as the train and the flashlights, you could see the comment count going up but none ever actually showed up.  We can deduce, therefore, that every one of those real posted comments must have been a negative comment, probably with a dislike also.  They eventually deleted them all, you could watch the comment count being 12 one day (I was watching since I posted comments on each) then two the next, etc.  Not one ever saw the light of day.

The ease with which this kind of thing can be whitewashed and have all the negative aspects concealed these days is incredibly troubling.

Pretty sad.  :palm:

It seems to be far too common in many different fields these days to make claims which are unsubstantiated by specifications or facts.  The TRUTH and FACTS somehow become subjective and open to interpretation!?!! 

Apparently, you can just say whatever you want and call it undeniable truth.  e.g:

https://youtu.be/-JeVPnTD28M?t=0
https://youtu.be/lHusZDjesr4?t=108

I love the reaction to the total insanity and lack of truth in that second video.   :-DD

(P.S. I am just demonstrating that it isn't just Batteroo playing these games.)
(       Please don't get into politics here in this thread, use general chat.         )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on February 17, 2017, 09:07:21 pm

Another just deleted comment for the record

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on February 18, 2017, 05:05:11 pm

Surely YT can/will ban them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on February 19, 2017, 02:14:23 am

http://www.onenotsoboredmommy.com/2017/02/batteroo-extend-your-battery-life-for.html (http://www.onenotsoboredmommy.com/2017/02/batteroo-extend-your-battery-life-for.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on February 19, 2017, 03:03:52 am

Quote from: StillTrying on February 19, 2017, 02:14:23 am

http://www.onenotsoboredmommy.com/2017/02/batteroo-extend-your-battery-life-for.html (http://www.onenotsoboredmommy.com/2017/02/batteroo-extend-your-battery-life-for.html)

Oh dear.

That's a recipe for one rather upset bride on the day.

I hope someone has a stash of batteries in their car .... just in case.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on February 19, 2017, 05:13:48 am

Is this the first we've seen sleeves that actually say "Batteroo" on them?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on February 19, 2017, 06:31:57 am

It's the first I've seen on the sleeves themselves.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 19, 2017, 09:19:09 am

Quote from: StillTrying on February 19, 2017, 02:14:23 am

http://www.onenotsoboredmommy.com/2017/02/batteroo-extend-your-battery-life-for.html (http://www.onenotsoboredmommy.com/2017/02/batteroo-extend-your-battery-life-for.html)

She said she was not paid for that "review", but that has all the hallmarks of a classic sponsored post.
She hasn't even finished the test on them in the camera  ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on February 19, 2017, 09:26:47 am

Quote from: StillTrying on February 19, 2017, 02:14:23 am

http://www.onenotsoboredmommy.com/2017/02/batteroo-extend-your-battery-life-for.html (http://www.onenotsoboredmommy.com/2017/02/batteroo-extend-your-battery-life-for.html)

That's a paid-for review.  I don't believe a word of the review or her claim of it not being paid-for,

https://twitter.com/OneBoredMommy (https://twitter.com/OneBoredMommy)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on February 19, 2017, 09:46:46 am

Quote from: daveake on February 19, 2017, 09:26:47 am

Quote from: StillTrying on February 19, 2017, 02:14:23 am

http://www.onenotsoboredmommy.com/2017/02/batteroo-extend-your-battery-life-for.html (http://www.onenotsoboredmommy.com/2017/02/batteroo-extend-your-battery-life-for.html)

That's a paid-for review.  I don't believe a word of the review or her claim of it not being paid-for,
https://twitter.com/OneBoredMommy (https://twitter.com/OneBoredMommy)

Urgh
http://www.oneboredmommy.com/p/media-kit.html (http://www.oneboredmommy.com/p/media-kit.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on February 19, 2017, 10:09:10 am

Who is using a camera which uses AA batteries on a wedding?  Every halfway decent camera uses a Lithium Ion battery...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Koen on February 19, 2017, 12:07:04 pm

Real photographs know AA batteries give the shot much more depth. You wouldn't know.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on February 19, 2017, 12:57:02 pm

The only time I've seen AA batteries work at a wedding is where the organizers put one or two of those disposable (film) cameras with a built-in flash on each of the tables at the reception.  Guests take photos through the reception and hand them back to a nominated person before they leave.

(I still have a couple of hundred of flash boards harvested from these cameras stashed away.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on February 19, 2017, 12:58:56 pm

My flashgun works with AA's but a batteriser will never see the inside of it. It is used with Eneloop NiMH batteries exclusively.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on February 19, 2017, 02:10:15 pm

Did the camera with AA cells for my sister's wedding recently. Just went and bought a 20 pack of Duracell AA cells, and used them for around 20 minutes in the camera, then turned it off, popped them out into the bag and put new ones in, so I could have 20 minutes of video on the camera in addition ( wanted a second view as well) to the main camera, and could move around with a small Canon to get closer up video. After signing changed them again, and did the reception shots and video as well same method. Only needed flash operation once the whole day, it was bright and sunny, and plenty of light even in the deepest shade under the lapa, and the wedding itself was done with a backdrop of the ocean.

Video camera battery was easy, had a few USB power banks around that were fully charged, and had tested before the camera would work properly with them attached and charging with camera operating. Did not need them though, 2 hours of onboard battery was more than enough.

Having Batterisers I would have had no warning of low battery ( I was changing out AA cells at half power indicated, not low, I wanted the confidence) till the camera stopped working during an image save, and this would have corrupted the flash card FAT table almost certainly. Camera FAT writes are power hungry, and there are critical points during writes that have the potential to lose all the data if power to the card or the processor dies.

Old batteries are not thrown out, I kept them separate, and am slowly using them up in the most common use of an AA cell, being remote controls ( where the 1A5 current peaks will cause issues with the Batteroo in some) and clocks. There they still last a few years before failure.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on February 19, 2017, 04:47:16 pm

I found the perfect device for the batteriser... ;)

A Fisher Price video camera which has a battery life of about 10 minutes on 6 AA batteries ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCXJ5twf5tM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCXJ5twf5tM)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on February 20, 2017, 12:50:13 am

That just gave me visions of the guy with the miracle watch ... with the two suitcase battery pack to go with it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on February 20, 2017, 06:56:31 am

Wow, what a nice device. That's a batteroo level camera for sure ! :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on February 20, 2017, 09:34:43 am

Update: they also bought likes now, was 6 likes now 136 likes  :-DD
If we go and dislike it more then likes, i bet they will buy another round  :-DD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBKnSRVQA64&t=2s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBKnSRVQA64&t=2s)

EDIT: now it has 135 likes???
EDIT: Now 134 likes?, not every day you see a video going down in likes, are the original few liker's disliking the video?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on February 20, 2017, 04:05:05 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on February 20, 2017, 09:34:43 am

Update: they also bought likes now, was 6 likes now 136 likes  :-DD

No surprise I guess; they seem rather set in their ways.

Speaking of which, latest round of complaints set for deletion or the auto-responder:

(http://i.imgur.com/OAuCZq4.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: james_s on February 21, 2017, 05:17:41 am

Quote from: meeder on February 19, 2017, 04:47:16 pm

I found the perfect device for the batteriser... ;)

A Fisher Price video camera which has a battery life of about 10 minutes on 6 AA batteries ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCXJ5twf5tM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCXJ5twf5tM)

I remember seeing those in a catalog when I was a kid, it seemed SOOO cool. Hey I was like 10...

So has anyone found *anything* that the batteriser improves? It seems like an interesting idea in theory, and it *is* rather nicely constructed. I have one of those Kit Kat clocks with the wagging tail and eyeballs, it runs off a single AA and tends the stop wagging long before the battery is dead. It occurred to me that this may be one application where these things could help but there's so much BS surrounding it that I'm not sure I could ever bring myself to buy one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mc172 on February 21, 2017, 08:45:57 am

Quote from: james_s on February 21, 2017, 05:17:41 am

So has anyone found *anything* that the batteriser improves?

Two. The thickness of Bob's wallet and the amount landfill.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on February 22, 2017, 12:32:44 pm

Just a big F U from batteroo

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on February 22, 2017, 12:37:01 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on February 22, 2017, 12:32:44 pm

Just a big F Y from batteroo

A-hahaha!  That is brilliant!  Almost "Keyboard not detected, press F2 to continue..."-esque!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: edavid on February 22, 2017, 05:09:40 pm

Quote from: meeder on February 19, 2017, 10:09:10 am

Who is using a camera which uses AA batteries on a wedding?  Every halfway decent camera uses a Lithium Ion battery...

A lot of us still love our Canon A series point and shoot cameras (A590, A720).  There's no real replacement.

If you are going to use a point and shoot at something like a wedding, AA batteries are arguably better, since you can have an unlimited number of them available.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on February 22, 2017, 08:03:32 pm

 Enloops are the way to go on the Canon A series. My A520 runs far longer than it did on cheaper rechargables plus if I don;t use it for a few weeks I don't turn it on just to find the batteries need recharging. If I'm going somewhere to take photos, I have a set of 8, so I take all of them and swap as necessary. They all fit nicely in my little carry bag.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on February 22, 2017, 10:46:41 pm

I have some old A-series Powershots for my hobby (high altitude ballooning), for 2 reasons: they accept CHDK firmware so I can run an intervalometer script, and because they use AAs so I can pop in Lithium Energizers which are specced for the cold temperatures the flight will encounter.  Alkalines are rubbish when cold, and your typical Li-Ion battery in modern cameras isn't much better.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on February 27, 2017, 04:10:16 pm

I wonder how many IGG orders they bothered to ship, as most of the complaints seem to be about non-delivery.  e.g. latest headed for the autoresponder:

(http://i.imgur.com/SF77Okv.png)

Also,another paid "review": http://www.cassandramsplace.com/2017/02/batteroo-battery-life-extender-review.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (http://www.cassandramsplace.com/2017/02/batteroo-battery-life-extender-review.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter) - and even the reviewer seems concerned with what damage the 'roo might do  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on February 27, 2017, 04:24:51 pm

Did anyone decapped any of the chips?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: romelec on February 27, 2017, 05:25:32 pm

Not yet but it should be soon: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1129407/#msg1129407 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1129407/#msg1129407)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on February 28, 2017, 09:31:43 am

This thread needs a batteroo... 800% more replies  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on February 28, 2017, 10:34:48 am

(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16997710_10211237908517803_2676511286959861035_n.jpg?oh=6485dc91922633b02046befe1e22f97e&oe=592E9E6A)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on February 28, 2017, 11:43:26 am

Quote from: Luminax on February 28, 2017, 09:31:43 am

This thread needs a batteroo... 800% more replies  :-+

Let me pitch in then....

What are consumer protection / advertising standards law like in the various countries where these have been sold, and in particular the US, where the company is based?

The packaging describes these things as "Battery Life Extenders", and they clearly, demonstrably, and objectively do not work as advertised. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amirm on February 28, 2017, 05:29:04 pm

Quote from: Delta on February 28, 2017, 11:43:26 am

Quote from: Luminax on February 28, 2017, 09:31:43 am

This thread needs a batteroo... 800% more replies  :-+

Let me pitch in then....

What are consumer protection / advertising standards law like in the various countries where these have been sold, and in particular the US, where the company is based?

The packaging describes these things as "Battery Life Extenders", and they clearly, demonstrably, and objectively do not work as advertised.

The relevant agencies are after the big fish, not something like this.  And certainly not when understanding what it does and doesn't do requires some technical knowledge.  The state attorney's office will help one get their money back if the offender is in another state but that is it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on March 01, 2017, 12:39:19 am

Quote from: Delta on February 28, 2017, 11:43:26 am

Quote from: Luminax on February 28, 2017, 09:31:43 am

This thread needs a batteroo... 800% more replies  :-+

Let me pitch in then....

What are consumer protection / advertising standards law like in the various countries where these have been sold, and in particular the US, where the company is based?

The packaging describes these things as "Battery Life Extenders", and they clearly, demonstrably, and objectively do not work as advertised.

I'm not sure if there are any shipped to around here yet... maybe to Singapore... hmmmmmmm
As for my country Malaysia... when you get devices like the one in Dave's mailbag that claims to "decreases fuel consumption" and other similarly smelly bullshitty meerkatting (errr marketing) claims sold in shelves at large supermarket... yeah... fat chance

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on March 01, 2017, 12:49:47 am

Very nearly time for Batteroo to choose their contest winner for this month. Which do you think it will be?

Dumb clock video?
Extremely Dumb makeup light video?
Old guy with Accordion video?
or this late and dumb entry?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly87x0p8wUk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly87x0p8wUk)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on March 01, 2017, 07:31:14 am

Quote from: Hensingler on March 01, 2017, 12:49:47 am

or this late and dumb entry?

That guy put in 800% too much effort for that video. I suppose all these content entrants just want some chance of winning their money back for "investing" in Batteriser / Batteroo in the first place, I suppose I can't blame them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on March 01, 2017, 07:34:35 am

Quote from: Hensingler on March 01, 2017, 12:49:47 am

or this late and dumb entry?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly87x0p8wUk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly87x0p8wUk)

Winner  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 01, 2017, 08:13:18 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on March 01, 2017, 07:34:35 am

Winner  :-+

I have to agree.   :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on March 06, 2017, 10:22:41 am

1st new comment in almost 2 weeks, think people have given up on batteroo and getting their selves.
EDIT: And now deleted

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Domagoj T on March 08, 2017, 08:43:07 pm

Not really related, but couldn't help thinking about this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=427rUyZ64Zo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=427rUyZ64Zo)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on March 08, 2017, 09:15:10 pm

Hi,

Nice video. Omni could have won bought a Frost and Sulivan award.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on March 09, 2017, 05:25:21 am

Quote from: Domagoj T on March 08, 2017, 08:43:07 pm

Not really related, but couldn't help thinking about this thread.

Lol, how could this NOT be inspired by Batteroo-iser? Someone should do a Batteroo parody of this parody of "real people" advertising...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 09, 2017, 07:12:42 am

This guy from Exar got duped  :palm:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/cool-invention-saves-you-money-frustration-alan-elbanhawy (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/cool-invention-saves-you-money-frustration-alan-elbanhawy)

And our friend Ali is at it again, shall we accept his challenge and use the Golf GPS with actual AA Batterisers? I think this has to be done to shut them up for good.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=297710;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 09, 2017, 08:48:47 am

And of course Dr Bob and Alan know each other from their Fairchild days  ::)

Sure he just stumbled across the Batteriser  ::)

Alan:
(http://i.imgur.com/Awi0Vea.png)

Dr Bob Roohparvar
(http://i.imgur.com/S8dwZ7C.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on March 09, 2017, 10:06:05 am

In among Alan's many dumb comments, this one stood out:

Quote

I always thought to myself, in the 21st century, why can’t we have a battery that lasts several times longer than the current battery lives?

Hmmm, yes Alan, why can't we have something several times better than is possible with our current technology? :palm:

Remember, Alan is an expert power system architect.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on March 09, 2017, 10:12:13 am

So let's see now, the people who say batteroo is good are:

• Bob and his family
• Bob's friends
• Bloggers paid by Bob

and anyone who says otherwise is sponsored by the battery industry?  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on March 09, 2017, 10:52:08 am

The family support group widens ... from those who "liked" the linked-in "review":

(http://i.imgur.com/uFE48tA.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 09, 2017, 10:53:54 am

Quote from: daveake on March 09, 2017, 10:12:13 am

So let's see now, the people who say batteroo is good are:

• Bob and his family
• Bob's friends
• Bloggers paid by Bob

and anyone who says otherwise is sponsored by the battery industry?  :-DD

Correct. And they are 100% serious.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on March 09, 2017, 02:24:42 pm

 For Lakshmi there, I had to look that one up - "full stack developer". Oh, more %$&*@ useless buzzwords added to my industry to make the same old things appear new again. Well, a subset of my industry anyway - like all this garbage 'new ideas' like 'Agile' development and this whole scrum thing. Last time I was actually on a software development team, we did ALL that stuff, just without the buzzwords.

 Rather disappointing about Alan. Professional ethics? What professional ethics?

 Hmm - that 'new custom chip' Batteroo uses - maybe a Fairchild part?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on March 09, 2017, 05:26:17 pm

Some more soon to be deleted comments for the record

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 09, 2017, 10:38:33 pm

This is great fun!, poor Ali just can't help himself:

(http://i.imgur.com/7ZZph4j.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/mM920F6.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/zId3PJ3.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/VwW8wZC.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/kA0HcWJ.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on March 09, 2017, 11:00:36 pm

Holy shit, I need to go relearn what "constant current" is, because despite learning it before Ali was born, my understanding is obviously wrong  :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 09, 2017, 11:18:09 pm

Quote from: daveake on March 09, 2017, 11:00:36 pm

Holy shit, I need to go relearn what "constant current" is, because despite learning it before Ali was born, my understanding is obviously wrong  :-//

And of course, Mine and Frank's toy trains are not acceptable, but their toy train test is  ::)
I have another AA toy train I might try, and I have a the exact same Golf G3 GPS on the way.
I was going to let this all just die, but Ali has just spurred my interest again!  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on March 09, 2017, 11:34:24 pm

Quote from: daveake on March 09, 2017, 11:00:36 pm

Holy shit, I need to go relearn what "constant current" is, because despite learning it before Ali was born, my understanding is obviously wrong  :-//

No, no, didn't you read the learnéd gentleman's sage words? It is "constant circuitry", he does not recommend the use of Batteroo in devices with "constant circuitry".

So does that mean that they are only suitable for use in devices where the circuitry is constantly being re-wired?  Probably. >:D

What's telling is that he made that mistake more than once. It sounds like a classic "boss mistake" where they don't understand what they have been told by someone technical and get it wrong in repeating it, like once when my boss emailed me about the Sun "spark" servers that we'd been talking about ordering (For those not in the know that should have been "SPARC").

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on March 09, 2017, 11:36:51 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on March 09, 2017, 11:18:09 pm

I was going to let this all just die, but Ali has just spurred my interest again!  ;D

Excellent :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on March 09, 2017, 11:39:24 pm

Quote from: Cerebus on March 09, 2017, 11:34:24 pm

No, no, didn't you read the learnéd gentleman's sage words? It is "constant circuitry", he does not recommend the use of Batteroo in devices with "constant circuitry".

So does that mean that they are only suitable for use in devices where the circuitry is constantly being re-wired?  Probably. >:D

Or being melted, via an overheating batteroo ?

He's a watch salesman arguing engineering in a room of engineers; not going well for him is it ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on March 09, 2017, 11:43:59 pm

Dave, you really ought to have criticised Ali Roohparvar for this comment

Quote

And regarding the UL test video - you clearly did not watch the UL test vs TechCatalyst test. Our test, we had a side by side comparison of the GPS. Both GPS has a rig that would tap the screen to wake them up every 15 seconds.

Their test did not have side by side GPS units and both tests had a mechanism to keep tapping the screen.

You might also ask why there was no mention of not being recommended for constant current circuitry before they scammed $400k on indiegogo and why there is currently no mention of it on their web site?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on March 09, 2017, 11:56:22 pm

Still no interest in even the simplest test of the reverse diode heating problem after the first Batteroo in a chain shuts down? (all the current passes through the intrinsic diode with a 0.6V, 0.8V, ????V  drop)

Still no interest in seeing if the Batteroo can latch up?

It just really puzzles me. The Batteroo may have bigger problems then its efficiency, and yet all we talk about is Garmin GPS's and toy trains. Not sure the last time I have seen the accuracy specifications for a toy train. Do Keysight sell a reference calibrated toy train? It is also just so easy to fake a test - even one that is continuously recorded. Flatten an alkaline battery, recharge it back to 1.6V, make it look like it is in a sealed pack and you now have a perfect battery to fake a short battery life. I totally trust Dave's toy train video tests, but in general, I look at most of these tests and have more questions then answers. I am left feeling - "if only there was a technical forum somewhere that could characterize the Batteroo according to calibrated lab-type measurements".

Toy trains and GPS's is where Batteroo want the argument to be, because they can keep the argument going around in circles until the general public is dizzy. If they can fool half the people half the time, they are billionaires.

If it turns out the maximum current of an AAA Batteroo is 300mA in a multi battery device because of intrinsic reverse diode thermal problems, that is pretty huge, since Batteroo have never wanted to specify any limits. Maybe there is no problem at all. No one knows at the moment, and I suspect that state of affairs suits Batteroo perfectly.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ludzinc on March 10, 2017, 12:42:20 am

Quote from: amspire on March 09, 2017, 11:56:22 pm

.... The Batteroo may have bigger problems then its efficiency ....

Than!  Misuse of then / than is starting to really peeve me these days.

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-Than-and-Then (http://www.wikihow.com/Use-Than-and-Then)

And while I'm at it, YOU KIDS STAY OFF MY LAWN!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on March 10, 2017, 01:17:26 am

Quote from: ludzinc on March 10, 2017, 12:42:20 am

Quote from: amspire on March 09, 2017, 11:56:22 pm

.... The Batteroo may have bigger problems then its efficiency ....

Than!  Misuse of then / than is starting to really peeve me these days.

That is only the first second third fourth fifth typing mistake I have ever made. OK, I admit it, I am really bad at typing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on March 10, 2017, 02:20:49 am

I think at least one tester has measured a batteriser in reverse as a 0.6V diode, but not at high current.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on March 10, 2017, 03:05:12 am

Been following this thread for a while now and seen the ebb and flow, so here's my two cents:

Dave, I can totally understand why your enthusiasm dipped, after all, even shooting fish in a barrel gets boring and tedious after a while.  It's not fun being negative about something, even if the product is amusing terrible.  So it's nice to see you haven't let the b*ggers get you down too much and have found some renewed enthusiasm.

Keep it up, fight them with facts and let them dig their own holes, as they seem pretty good at that already.

On a side note, I thought the competition was a $500 prize for the best video, from this wording it seems it is now $50 for the best 10 videos?

Quote

Submit your fun video to batteroo.com/contest for a chance to win $500 every month! Here are some $50 customer appreciation contest award winners. We chose 10 customers last month to win $50!

EDIT:  Ah I think I see what's going on here.  The first month they said:

Quote

Batteroo Contest Award Winners! Submit a fun video for a chance to win $500, every month!
1st place: Justin Franzino $500
2nd place: John Oliver $400
3rd place: Paul Cuni $400

They've obviously realised that they can't afford $1300/month on it, so have slashed the total prize fund to $500 and used their magic weasel wording.  They might want to update the wording on their website though:

Quote

Fill in your contact information below and submit the URL link with your image, or video for a chance to win our $500 pre-paid gift cards. We pick a winner EVERY MONTH!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on March 10, 2017, 03:22:38 am

Quote from: StillTrying on March 10, 2017, 02:20:49 am

I think at least one tester has measured a batteriser in reverse as a 0.6V diode, but not at high current.

Yes, as far as I know that is it. Up till then, I don't think anyone had even looked at how the Batteroo/Batteriser looks to a circuit when it shuts down.

Where does an ordinary person go to get a clear technical description of how the Batteroo really works - for good or bad? Unfortunately not here. There are partial descriptions and tests buried somewhere in the 344 pages of this thread and in the 24 pages of the Batteroo testing thread, but somehow the need to destroy Batteroo has become more important than impartially evaluating the technology - the good and the bad.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on March 10, 2017, 03:28:52 am

Quote from: amspire on March 10, 2017, 03:22:38 am

somehow the need to destroy Batteroo has become more important than impartially evaluating the technology - the good and the bad.

The technology does not need evaluating, it's a very old idea that's including in many, many devices already.

Quote

Where does an ordinary person go to get a clear technical description of how the Batteroo really works

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_thief


The point was the claims they were making were complete nonsense and had no basis in reality.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on March 10, 2017, 03:56:01 am

Wow, this poor old dead horse has been beaten back to life again for another lap...  :horse:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on March 10, 2017, 04:50:45 am

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on March 10, 2017, 03:28:52 am

Quote from: amspire on March 10, 2017, 03:22:38 am

somehow the need to destroy Batteroo has become more important than impartially evaluating the technology - the good and the bad.

The technology does not need evaluating, it's a very old idea that's including in many, many devices already.

It is a new product - no one has ever made a battery booster clip before that can fit in a standard battery holder. The questions I have been asking cannot be answered by looking at any "old idea". That is why I am asking them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: kalleboo on March 10, 2017, 05:23:12 am

Quote from: amspire on March 09, 2017, 11:56:22 pm

Still no interest in even the simplest test of the reverse diode heating problem after the first Batteroo in a chain shuts down? (all the current passes through the intrinsic diode with a 0.6V, 0.8V, ????V  drop)

Still no interest in seeing if the Batteroo can latch up?

I replied to you once before, if you're really interested, write up a simple test plan, using common hobbyist gear, with expected results, and one of us with a few batterisers lying around will be sure to try it.

Since I haven't seen a test plan from you (apologies if I just missed it), I can only assume you're more interested in arguing than the actual answers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on March 10, 2017, 05:35:40 am

Quote from: kalleboo on March 10, 2017, 05:23:12 am

Quote from: amspire on March 09, 2017, 11:56:22 pm

Still no interest in even the simplest test of the reverse diode heating problem after the first Batteroo in a chain shuts down? (all the current passes through the intrinsic diode with a 0.6V, 0.8V, ????V  drop)

Still no interest in seeing if the Batteroo can latch up?

I replied to you once before, if you're really interested, write up a simple test plan, using common hobbyist gear, with expected results, and one of us with a few batterisers lying around will be sure to try it.

Since I haven't seen a test plan from you, I can only assume you're more interested in arguing than the actual answers.

I have described tests several times. Below are two of my posts on this. I wasn't aware I had to send you a test plan. The first post goes back a bit before anyone had tested for a reverse diode junction on the output, so I cover the possibility that it goes open on shutdown.

I am more interested in answers then arguing. The main question I have been asking is "Is the Batteroo capable of latchup or failure in a multi-battery environment." There is no argument involved, because at the moment, I doubt anyone in this forum knows.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1123123/#msg1123123 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1123123/#msg1123123)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1128604/#msg1128604 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1128604/#msg1128604)

Edit: And this one:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1097242/#msg1097242 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1097242/#msg1097242)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on March 10, 2017, 10:50:06 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 09, 2017, 11:18:09 pm

And of course, Mine and Frank's toy trains are not acceptable, but their toy train test is  ::)
I have another AA toy train I might try, and I have a the exact same Golf G3 GPS on the way.
I was going to let this all just die, but Ali has just spurred my interest again!  ;D

Can you figure out a way to set something on fire with Batterisers?

Walmart, etc., might risk selling a product that underperforms but no way will they sell something dangerous. Can we figure out a plausible way (ie. reasonably likely to happen) to short-circuit a battery with Batterisers.

nb. It might need two batterisers in series or something.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 10, 2017, 11:50:00 am

Quote from: Fungus on March 10, 2017, 10:50:06 am

Can you figure out a way to set something on fire with Batterisers?
Walmart, etc., might risk selling a product that underperforms but no way will they sell something dangerous. Can we figure out a plausible way (ie. reasonably likely to happen) to short-circuit a battery with Batterisers.
nb. It might need two batterisers in series or something.

Two Batterisers in series inside a tight metal case. If the upper Batteriser has a burr that shorts out to the metal then it'll likely short via the case ground.
Just the act of sliding the Batteriser into a tight metal compartment might be enough to wear off the insulating coating.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on March 10, 2017, 12:16:18 pm

What happens if you have two Batterisers side by side in a battery holder and rotate one of them?
Since they are in series if one Batteriser touches the other one and if the coating has been damaged they will short one battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 10, 2017, 12:59:49 pm

So I have a theory, this is the guy Bob turned to to design the Batteriser ASIC, the author of the hilarious puff piece on LinkedIn.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/alan-elbanhawy-02522622/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alan-elbanhawy-02522622/)
They both used to work at Fairchild for a 4 years overlap, and he's now power system and DC-DC expert at Exar who make boost converter chips among other things.
Once that investment funding came though, who you gonna call?
I recon Exar were contracted to design the chip.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on March 10, 2017, 01:15:27 pm

Quote from: samgab on March 10, 2017, 03:56:01 am

Wow, this poor old dead horse has been beaten back to life again for another lap...  :horse:

 But if this were a Monty Python sketch, it would be the Roohparavar family saying "I'm not dead yet!"

Of course they will never admit defeat, they don't dare admit the product was flawed from the beginning. At most they may eventually just quietly disappear - until Bob's next venture.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 10, 2017, 01:28:01 pm

Quote from: rrinker on March 10, 2017, 01:15:27 pm

Of course they will never admit defeat, they don't dare admit the product was flawed from the beginning.

They can't, they have taken VC money, twice now it seems, so they have to ride this donkey all the way into town.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on March 10, 2017, 03:35:49 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on March 10, 2017, 12:59:49 pm

So I have a theory, this is the guy Bob turned to to design the Batteriser ASIC, the author of the hilarious puff piece on LinkedIn.

But regardless why would this

Quote

Accomplished electrical engineer / engineering manager and director with superior technical, managerial and people skills.

tarnish his reputation by blatantly promoting a scam product?

He looks close to retirement so maybe he doesn't care - was he bribed or maybe blackmailed :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 11, 2017, 05:06:01 am

Let's not get too carried away with conjecture.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 11, 2017, 06:42:39 am

From:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTkOv1Kph84 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTkOv1Kph84)
This is funny, especially Blocco's last sentence  :-DD

(http://i.imgur.com/bc2X2ch.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on March 11, 2017, 07:29:26 am

"Please direct any questions you have regarding your specific orders to support@batteroo.com – Batteroo customer support team will promptly help you."

Is not an automated response, its someone copying and pasting it....

Response times are anywhere from the same day, to 3 days later... an automated reply isn't going to be delayed like that...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 11, 2017, 07:40:49 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on March 11, 2017, 07:29:26 am

Response times are anywhere from the same day, to 3 days later... an automated reply isn't going to be delayed like that...

Not if it's turned on all the time.

I have visions of some lackey coming into the office, turning on the computer and only firing up the email program once or twice a week.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on March 11, 2017, 03:58:25 pm

Quote from: Brumby on March 11, 2017, 07:40:49 am

Quote from: AmmoJammo on March 11, 2017, 07:29:26 am

Response times are anywhere from the same day, to 3 days later... an automated reply isn't going to be delayed like that...

Not if it's turned on all the time.

I have visions of some lackey coming into the office, turning on the computer and only firing up the email program once or twice a week.....

No, I think he's saying that the comment 'autoresponse' on the website varies in timing so much that's it's likely that the 'autoresponse' is in fact a human not an actual programmed autoresponse.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jpc on March 11, 2017, 05:39:05 pm

You're very good at telling other other people what they should be doing, why don't you do it if you think it so important. As to people on this site trying to destroy Batteroo, you really like over hyping things don't you. For while I have seen the occasional poster asking if they could be reported to various consumer protection organisations for their claims, which you probably could in the UK, mostly what I see is people debunking their claims and generally having a good laugh at the responses from Bob and his cronies. Bobb and the crowd also seems to be totally unaware of the Streisand affect. Of course, if having a laugh at the antics of Bob and his cronies while debunking Batteroos' claims should lead to the company going out of business, all well and good. Unfortunately, unless some US state's attorney general gets on their case, Bob and the crowd are the type to walk away from this with a nice earner and then move on to the next scam while likely blaming Big Battery, you know, the ones supposedly paying Dave and Frank :) ) if they ever do collapse.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on March 11, 2017, 09:43:50 pm

Quote from: jpc on March 11, 2017, 05:39:05 pm

You're very good

Thank you

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jpc on March 12, 2017, 12:25:08 am

LOL

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 12, 2017, 03:37:32 am

Quote from: jpc on March 11, 2017, 05:39:05 pm

You're very good at telling other other people what they should be doing, why don't you do it if you think it so important. As to people on this site trying to destroy Batteroo, you really like over hyping things don't you. For while I have seen the occasional poster asking if they could be reported to various consumer protection organisations for their claims, which you probably could in the UK, mostly what I see is people debunking their claims and generally having a good laugh at the responses from Bob and his cronies. Bobb and the crowd also seems to be totally unaware of the Streisand affect. Of course, if having a laugh at the antics of Bob and his cronies while debunking Batteroos' claims should lead to the company going out of business, all well and good. Unfortunately, unless some US state's attorney general gets on their case, Bob and the crowd are the type to walk away from this with a nice earner and then move on to the next scam while likely blaming Big Battery, you know, the ones supposedly paying Dave and Frank :) ) if they ever do collapse.

What you have raised has been already discussed - and the sad thing is, that in the big scheme of things, most individuals aren't going to bother fighting for a $20 loss.

As for "trying to destroy Batteroo" - then you have missed the mark. The focus has always been on the product.  The fact that Batteroo have used deceptive tactics in their promotion of that product is what has resulted in the company and it's officeholders being brought into the melee.

If they had never mentioned 800% at the outset, then this thread would not have made 100 posts - if it were to have been created at all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ebastler on March 12, 2017, 10:14:06 am

Quote from: jpc on March 11, 2017, 05:39:05 pm

You're very good at telling other other people what they should be doing, why don't you do it if you think it so important. [...]

Who are you talking to, and which comment(s) are you referring to, in that post?
(No slight intended; it's just unclear to me.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on March 12, 2017, 02:34:34 pm

Quote from: ebastler on March 12, 2017, 10:14:06 am

Quote from: jpc on March 11, 2017, 05:39:05 pm

You're very good at telling other other people what they should be doing, why don't you do it if you think it so important. [...]

Who are you talking to, and which comment(s) are you referring to, in that post?
(No slight intended; it's just unclear to me.)

Precisely because of its initial apparent ambiguity, that message is actually quite a good test of the English comprehension abilities of the reader. Yes, it's poorly phrased but it is eventually parsable. (As a non-native speaker, you get an automatic pass simply for being able to read it at all.) It's addressed to Batteroo and I think it's addressed at one of the quoted Batteroo replies.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ebastler on March 12, 2017, 02:50:45 pm

Quote from: Cerebus on March 12, 2017, 02:34:34 pm

Precisely because of its initial apparent ambiguity, that message is actually quite a good test of the English comprehension abilities of the reader. Yes, it's poorly phrased but it is eventually parsable. (As a non-native speaker, you get an automatic pass simply for being able to read it at all.) It's addressed to Batteroo and I think it's addressed at one of the quoted Batteroo replies.

That's what I had thought after having read the first sentences. But then it stopped making sense, when jpc started referring to "Bob and the crowd" in the third person. Anyway, you are probably right.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on March 13, 2017, 06:37:40 pm

There's a new Batteroo video in town, or rather a compilation of previous dishonest claims but this time raised to an even higher level of dishonesty by implying that the cherry-picked results are typical for all devices of that type.

https://youtu.be/IbTPxGo3HOo

Currently at just 14 views and no doubt 10,000+ before the end of the week. ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on March 13, 2017, 07:40:55 pm

As the video says, it is still on the CNN website:

http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html (http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html)

It is sad that we live now in the post-factual era and even some big news corporations don't do basic fact checking anymore.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on March 13, 2017, 09:46:48 pm

lets see how many days goes by before it reaches 10,000+ views and no comments, they will save a bit of money this time as they disabled rating

EDIT: they just re-uploaded the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMsYw1aaJg0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMsYw1aaJg0)
EDIT: For the record, the video got under 60 views in the first 24 hours
EDIT: over 48 hours and at 71 views

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amirm on March 13, 2017, 11:42:01 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on March 13, 2017, 07:40:55 pm

As the video says, it is still on the CNN website:

http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html (http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2015/11/24/coolest-gadgets-2015/9.html)

It is sad that we live now in the post-factual era and even some big news corporations don't do basic fact checking anymore.

Can't see it anymore.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on March 14, 2017, 01:14:27 am

Quote from: StillTrying on February 12, 2017, 03:18:12 am

About a month ago my LCD clock's display became noticeably faint, and a day later it was completely blank!

This clock is still going strong with full LCD contrast after another month on that one temporary charge!

Clock very similar to:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Acctim-Radio-Controlled-Wall-Clock/dp/B000Q9SGV0 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Acctim-Radio-Controlled-Wall-Clock/dp/B000Q9SGV0)

The 'Expensive' AA batts:
http://www.wilko.com/batteries+chargers/wilko-extra-life-alkaline-batteries-aa-15v-4pk/invt/0143639 (http://www.wilko.com/batteries+chargers/wilko-extra-life-alkaline-batteries-aa-15v-4pk/invt/0143639)

When I find where the other 3 AAs ended up in I'll be giving them a gentle top up as well!

Who needs flattenyourbatteryisers.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on March 14, 2017, 02:32:43 am

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on March 13, 2017, 09:46:48 pm

lets see how many days goes by before it reaches 10,000+ views and no comments, they will save a bit of money this time as they disabled rating

EDIT: they just re-uploaded the video

And here is the stock image before they photoshopped the GPS into his hand. As fake as everything else from Batteroo. 

As someone said a few posts ago criticising Batteroo is like shooting fish in a barrel, except the fish refuse to die.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on March 14, 2017, 02:47:28 am

Quote from: Hensingler on March 14, 2017, 02:32:43 am

As someone said a few posts ago criticising Batteroo is like shooting fish in a barrel, except the fish refuse to die.

At that point I fear that some of my North American cousins would switch to dynamiting fish in a barrel; probably preceded by the famous last words of many a redneck: "Hey Y'all, watch this!".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 02:59:43 am

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on March 13, 2017, 09:46:48 pm

lets see how many days goes by before it reaches 10,000+ views and no comments, they will save a bit of money this time as they disabled rating

EDIT: they just re-uploaded the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMsYw1aaJg0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMsYw1aaJg0)

The exact same model Golf GPS model should be waiting in my PO Box for me...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: boffin on March 14, 2017, 03:25:44 am

any way to get Garmin to comment on it ?   Like asking "does your golf GPS really only last 1h43m like this video implies" ?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 14, 2017, 03:27:47 am

I just wanted to see the full image...
(http://www.villasalinesmauritius.com//wp-content/uploads/2016/07/activities-golf.jpg)

With the following acknowledgement of where it is published: http://www.villasalinesmauritius.com/activities/ (http://www.villasalinesmauritius.com/activities/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 03:32:05 am

Quote from: boffin on March 14, 2017, 03:25:44 am

any way to get Garmin to comment on it ?   Like asking "does your golf GPS really only last 1h43m like this video implies" ?

Ask them!
In any event I will definitely do this test. It might go on my 2nd channel because so many have said they are sick of Batteriser videos?
But I do think it's important because this is their huge big ticket marketing example, and also the example they sent to UL for testing.
TechnologyCatalyst has already shown it's a fraud, and if I can do the same then it's case closed, they should retract their UL test report and their marketing video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on March 14, 2017, 04:05:24 am

Quote from: Brumby on March 14, 2017, 03:27:47 am

I just wanted to see the full image...

With the following acknowledgement of where it is published: http://www.villasalinesmauritius.com/activities/ (http://www.villasalinesmauritius.com/activities/)

More likely it comes from here http://www.fotosearch.de/CSP991/k9986065/ (http://www.fotosearch.de/CSP991/k9986065/) where it should have been paid for.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on March 14, 2017, 04:16:30 am

Ask Gamin when they're going to fix their battery management problem, so that people don't have to buy a third party add on, and the vid will disappear.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 14, 2017, 04:40:50 am

Quote from: Hensingler on March 14, 2017, 04:05:24 am

Quote from: Brumby on March 14, 2017, 03:27:47 am

I just wanted to see the full image...

With the following acknowledgement of where it is published: http://www.villasalinesmauritius.com/activities/ (http://www.villasalinesmauritius.com/activities/)

More likely it comes from here http://www.fotosearch.de/CSP991/k9986065/ (http://www.fotosearch.de/CSP991/k9986065/) where it should have been paid for.

It may well have originally come from there - but seeing as the rather obvious watermark is missing, it would seem the site I cited might have paid for it.

I wonder if Batteroo did?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on March 14, 2017, 06:39:01 am

Quote from: boffin on Today at 02:25:44 PM (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=48950.msg1159424#msg1159424)>

any way to get Garmin to comment on it ?   Like asking "does your golf GPS really only last 1h43m like this video implies" ?

I already did this, ages ago. It's even in this thread, several hundred pages back...
Anyway, This was my email:

"The company startup "Batteroo" with the pending product "Batteriser" have published a video in which they claim to test a Garmin Approach G3 using new Alkaline batteries, and they state that it only lasts 1 hour and 52 minutes before it dies. This claim has been widely spread on youtube, their own website, and other parts of the internet.

Can Garmin confirm or refute whether the Approach G3 will only last for under 2 hours on new Alkaline Duracell batteries, and then the batteries would need to be changed?

Thank you for your assistance.

Best Regards,

...

PS Here are the relevant links:









http://batteriser.com/ (http://batteriser.com/)



https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)



And a picture which shows, they claim, a UL test confirming their test findings that the Approach G3 runs for less than 2 hours on new Alkalines (1 hr 43 mins this time!):

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COGdNPQUcAA8XuS.jpg (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COGdNPQUcAA8XuS.jpg)



I appreciate your comment on this, ideally including technical facts, design elements, and testing which show the true expected battery life of the Approach G3 GPS. Thank you!"

And this was their irrelevant non-response canned response:

"Thank you for contacting Garmin International. I would be happy to assist you today. NiMH or Lithium batteries are recommended for the Approach G3, and the expected battery life is up to 15 hours using either of these batteries.

When determining which batteries will suit your application best it is important to note, if Lithium batteries are chosen, that two distinct types exist.

Lithium Batteries
Lithium Ion Batteries
The difference in these two types of batteries resides in the voltage each produces. Please check to ensure that the voltage listed on the battery does not exceed the voltage requirement of your GPS listed in the manual.

The difference in voltage between the two batteries is as follows:

Lithium batteries have a voltage of 1.75V and are not rechargeable
Lithium Ion batteries have a voltage of 4.2V and are rechargeable
Often Lithium batteries are the preferred choice for those choosing to use such a battery. In many cases, a Lithium battery will need to be used after its voltage has dropped below the recommended voltage listed in the device manual. It is not recommended that Lithium Ion batteries be used. In many cases these batteries exceed the limits of Garmin GPS devices and can cause irreversible damage.
With Best Regards,

Lindsey

Customer Care - Golf Team

Garmin International

913-397-8200

800-800-1020

913-440-8280 (fax) Att: Lindsey 8996256

www.garmin.com (http://www.garmin.com)

 

Additional solutions may be found at http://www.garmin.com/garmin/cms/site/us/support/searchsupport (http://www.garmin.com/garmin/cms/site/us/support/searchsupport)"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 14, 2017, 08:33:58 am

Cut and paste response.

No attempt to even acknowledge the question, let alone answer it.  Useless.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Zbig on March 14, 2017, 08:42:31 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 03:32:05 am

In any event I will definitely do this test. It might go on my 2nd channel because so many have said they are sick of Batteriser videos?

They could always just not watch this. In my opinion, its place is on the main channel. This bullshit has to be finally dealt with properly, in the open. Putting it on the second channel could be seen as a lack of confidence, you being afraid of something, IMO.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 08:46:57 am

Some Garmin engineering people:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-harvey-19415644/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-harvey-19415644/)
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamie-forrester-4367361/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamie-forrester-4367361/)
This guys might know:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ngay528/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ngay528/)

Quote

Power Management IC bring-up, testing and integration into Garmin designs

And this is the marketing guy for the golf products:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryan-yalowitz-896a6931/ (https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryan-yalowitz-896a6931/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on March 14, 2017, 09:10:51 am

Quote from: samgab on March 14, 2017, 06:39:01 am

Quote from: boffin on Today at 02:25:44 PM (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=48950.msg1159424#msg1159424)>

any way to get Garmin to comment on it ?   Like asking "does your golf GPS really only last 1h43m like this video implies" ?

I already did this, ages ago. It's even in this thread, several hundred pages back...
Anyway, This was my email:

It might be useful to send them another eMail, with a link to the new video they made last month, and the UL report from their website. Maybe ask the CEO personally in a concise manner "is it right that the battery of your Garmin Approach G3 lasts barely 2 hours, as Batteroo says and shows in their video, website and UL report?".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBKnSRVQA64 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBKnSRVQA64)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 09:49:26 am

I've contacted the head of marketing for the division that handles the G3 GPS for an official comment, and a technical response if possible.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on March 14, 2017, 02:00:36 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 09:49:26 am

I've contacted the head of marketing for the division that handles the G3 GPS for an official comment, and a technical response if possible.

Before I read this, I was just about to say "Talk to their PR people if you want to get a response at more than glacial speed and with above troglodyte intelligence (not much above, they are PRs)."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on March 17, 2017, 01:31:30 am

This twitter reply from Garmin looks... promising... ???

 :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on March 17, 2017, 02:15:03 am

Quote from: Brumby on March 14, 2017, 08:33:58 am

Cut and paste response.

No attempt to even acknowledge the question, let alone answer it.  Useless.

The response does say "up to 15 hours". They're implicitly saying "no, that Batteroo is bullshit", without actually saying it. It is often the case that CSRs are taught to make no mention of any third-party products (for legal reasons), and just state the facts.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 17, 2017, 02:39:47 am

A cut and paste answer for questions about battery life.

It could have been a better answer, but a CSR would not have the skills to write one.  I also doubt that a CSR would refer it to a department capable of giving an answer, since their job is to handle such inquiries.


All I could expect is that the issue is discussed enough that Garmin management might notice and issue a statement.

I'm not holding my breath.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on March 17, 2017, 03:23:54 am

Quote from: Brumby on March 17, 2017, 02:39:47 am

A cut and paste answer for questions about battery life.

It could have been a better answer, but a CSR would not have the skills to write one.  I also doubt that a CSR would refer it to a department capable of giving an answer, since their job is to handle such inquiries.


All I could expect is that the issue is discussed enough that Garmin management might notice and issue a statement.

I'm not holding my breath.

Yeah, the answer I received was mostly a bunch of stuff about the difference between lithium and li-ion cells, which had nothing to do with the question I asked. It was definitely just a copy/paste, and I don't think she even actually did me the courtesy of reading the question in full, or gave it more than a passing glance... "hmmm... Garmin GPS... Battery... Oh yes, I have an answer for that somewhere here which one of my colleagues typed and sent to someone else about that before... copy/paste... Done! Now, where is my lip gloss, oh and what did I bring in for lunch today?"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on March 18, 2017, 12:28:27 am

As expected the view count just went through the roof, after 96 hours it had 93 views, now a few hours later it has 1,933 and i bet in 12 hours it will jump to over 10,000  :-DD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMsYw1aaJg0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMsYw1aaJg0)
EDIT: Now at 10,625 views (2017-03-19)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on March 18, 2017, 02:14:41 am

...you're skewing the view count by embedding it here.  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on March 18, 2017, 04:43:05 am

I like how the first heading on their webpage says "Patented & Reusable Battery Life Extending Sleeves"

Like somehow being patented is a feature?  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 18, 2017, 06:34:21 am

"Patented" has a credibility to it that Marketing departments just love to exploit.  Consumers see it as a formal acknowledgement of something new.

The subtleties are not something the average consumer would think too hard about ... if at all.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AmmoJammo on March 18, 2017, 07:16:00 am

I'm confused by this statement on their webpage?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=300271;image)

I suppose they aren't claiming they have the patent..

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 18, 2017, 08:53:52 am

Now you're getting the idea.   ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: CaptCrash on March 18, 2017, 12:48:15 pm

Quote from: AmmoJammo on March 18, 2017, 07:16:00 am

I'm confused by this statement on their webpage?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=300271;image)

I suppose they aren't claiming they have the patent..

They are also claiming in their "Product Technology Specs" that they have utilised a coating that is both stainless steel and non conductive.  I wonder if its 8x or 800% less conductive.
That sounds like quite a task

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on March 18, 2017, 04:03:24 pm

It gets even more confusing, since the left says the entire sleeve is made of stainless but then the right says "stainless steel coating"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on March 18, 2017, 06:42:40 pm

You guys are either reading too deep, or too shallow. It simply says, "We have a stainless steel coating to prevent rust, and a non-conductive coating on top of that to prevent shoting"

Although, with the way they have been promoting their video and screwdrivering their marketing bs, it might be me who's giving them too much of a break?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on March 19, 2017, 07:05:31 pm

I think I can see a pattern emerging.... :palm:

http://thirtysomethingsupermom.com/batteroo-extends-battery-life/ (http://thirtysomethingsupermom.com/batteroo-extends-battery-life/)
http://momblogsociety.com/batteroo-technologhy-extends-battery-life/ (http://momblogsociety.com/batteroo-technologhy-extends-battery-life/)
http://www.onenotsoboredmommy.com/2017/02/batteroo-extend-your-battery-life-for.html (http://www.onenotsoboredmommy.com/2017/02/batteroo-extend-your-battery-life-for.html)

If you find reading the "reviews" painful, you should probably avoid the comments section.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Koen on March 19, 2017, 07:21:10 pm

Fake blog rings. As if you had multiple accounts on reddit upvoting/commenting on each others links to gain visibility.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on March 19, 2017, 08:46:00 pm

Quote from: Blocco on March 19, 2017, 07:05:31 pm

I think I can see a pattern emerging.... :palm:

http://thirtysomethingsupermom.com/batteroo-extends-battery-life/ (http://thirtysomethingsupermom.com/batteroo-extends-battery-life/)
http://momblogsociety.com/batteroo-technologhy-extends-battery-life/ (http://momblogsociety.com/batteroo-technologhy-extends-battery-life/)
http://www.onenotsoboredmommy.com/2017/02/batteroo-extend-your-battery-life-for.html (http://www.onenotsoboredmommy.com/2017/02/batteroo-extend-your-battery-life-for.html)

If you find reading the "reviews" painful, you should probably avoid the comments section.

It's 'interesting' quite how many comments use the phrase "extend the life of batteries" and go on to say that they will try them or that they must get some.

I don't know about you, but I find that most people who don't work in marketing would say some thing like 'make batteries last longer' but I'm sure that Batteroo are far too honourable to both sponsor a post and then go and Astroturf the comment section too.

At least the first blog listed is honest enough to say that it's a sponsored post.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Domagoj T on March 19, 2017, 09:10:31 pm

Quote from: Cerebus on March 19, 2017, 08:46:00 pm

At least the first blog listed is honest enough to say that it's a sponsored post.

It says sponsored, but it also says "All opinions are my own." Then it proceeds to talks about “Zombie” batteries.
I am not a native English speaker, so I may have missed it, but in the 20+ years of speaking the language I don't recall ever hearing the term. That is until all this Butterizer thing. Is it used in everyday, casual conversation?
It seems to me as if Rooh bros gave her the script with bullet points and specific words to use in the article, all in effort to appease the SEO gods.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Avacee on March 19, 2017, 09:38:41 pm

Quote from: Domagoj T on March 19, 2017, 09:10:31 pm

It says sponsored, but it also says "All opinions are my own." Then it proceeds to talks about “Zombie” batteries.
I am not a native English speaker, so I may have missed it, but in the 20+ years of speaking the language I don't recall ever hearing the term. That is until all this Butterizer thing. Is it used in everyday, casual conversation?
It seems to me as if Rooh bros gave her the script with bullet points and specific word to use in the article, all in effort to appease the SEO gods.

Our batteries get "low" and then they're "dead" ... never ever heard "Zombie Battery" - any Brit using that phrase is, imho, either copy + pasting, or a marketing w****r throwing around a new buzzword.

If Batterpoo wanted to sell in Britain they'd probably use phrases such as "resurrect dead batteries", "revive dead batteries", "boost low batteries".
But our Advertising Standards Agency is pretty strict on outrageous claims (read: lies) and the British Standards Institute would be interested in the overheating reports (good luck getting a kite mark)
I confess part of me is wondering what would happen if they found a UK distributor :p

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 19, 2017, 09:46:01 pm

Quote from: Cerebus on March 19, 2017, 08:46:00 pm

At least the first blog listed is honest enough to say that it's a sponsored post.

I presume sponsored post means cash payment and not simply some free Batterisers?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Koen on March 19, 2017, 10:21:03 pm

In the early days, advertisers would approach popular bloggers and offer to exchange a fixed income against the publication of a few commercials per month. Disclosed by the blogger or not.

Then bloggers made multiple similar blogs to gain more from these offers. Creating "rings" where each blog would promote other blogs.

Eventually, advertisers decided to maintain their own rings by employing "writers" to maintain dozen of blogs whose sole use is publishing commercials for the advertisers clients.

Obviously, you can buy comments too. From "random users" or, better, "other bloggers" which will later promote the same product and confirm its usefulness.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on March 19, 2017, 10:41:51 pm

Quote from: Blocco on March 19, 2017, 07:05:31 pm

I think I can see a pattern emerging.... :palm:

http://thirtysomethingsupermom.com/batteroo-extends-battery-life/ (http://thirtysomethingsupermom.com/batteroo-extends-battery-life/)
http://momblogsociety.com/batteroo-technologhy-extends-battery-life/ (http://momblogsociety.com/batteroo-technologhy-extends-battery-life/)
http://www.onenotsoboredmommy.com/2017/02/batteroo-extend-your-battery-life-for.html (http://www.onenotsoboredmommy.com/2017/02/batteroo-extend-your-battery-life-for.html)

If you find reading the "reviews" painful, you should probably avoid the comments section.

To someone familiar with this sort of stuff it's instantly recognisable as blogspam, but to the average clueless luser, it might seem credible.

Anyone here mind posting some actual true comments on there and see if they get deleted? I tried on all 3 but only the middle one seemed to take, although it's "awaiting moderation". Now we know why... :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 19, 2017, 11:38:32 pm

Quote from: Koen on March 19, 2017, 10:21:03 pm

Obviously, you can buy comments too. From "random users" or, better, "other bloggers" which will later promote the same product and confirm its usefulness.

That sort of astroturfing is quite common.
It's all part of the marketing campaign: paid promotional blogs, paid astroturfing comments, buying fake views and likes etc.
They see nothing wrong with this, indeed it seems to be an accepted part of the marketing playbook these days.
Heck I have even busted Batteroo creating an anonymous account on this forum so we know they do this.

Of course they will never engage with nor allow a credible independent blog like mine unless they really believed in their product and claims. Those people can't be controlled so are to be avoided at all costs.

In December though they tried to hire me as an independent tester, which would of course, if I entertained the notion, had me under contract with various clauses no doubt. That failed  :P

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Koen on March 19, 2017, 11:54:58 pm

Curious, I had a look at Google's first page results with Belgium-French localization to see if people would be encouraged or discouraged to buy it after a quick search and stumbled upon this old quote :

Quote

“The battery manufacturers have been focusing on the chemical characteristics of the battery rather than looking at it from an electrical engineering point of view,” Roohparvar says. “I asked the ex-CTO of Energizer, ‘How come nobody thought about this?’ He said, ‘Because we’re chemical engineers, and we weren’t thinking about power management.’”

^-^

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on March 20, 2017, 12:04:08 am

Quote from: Blocco on March 19, 2017, 07:05:31 pm

http://thirtysomethingsupermom.com/batteroo-extends-battery-life/ (http://thirtysomethingsupermom.com/batteroo-extends-battery-life/)

Took me a while to find this so in case anyone is interested the tested lights seem to be like this

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/9-SMD-LED-Pocket-Pen-Torch_60434529380.html (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/9-SMD-LED-Pocket-Pen-Torch_60434529380.html)

and this is likely a badged version

https://www.kincrome.com.au/smd-led-penlight (https://www.kincrome.com.au/smd-led-penlight)

Taking 3 x AAA hard to see how Batteriseroo sleeves are going to improve life unless they current limiting.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on March 20, 2017, 12:49:35 am

Quote from: Hensingler on March 20, 2017, 12:04:08 am

Quote from: Blocco on March 19, 2017, 07:05:31 pm

http://thirtysomethingsupermom.com/batteroo-extends-battery-life/ (http://thirtysomethingsupermom.com/batteroo-extends-battery-life/)

Took me a while to find this so in case anyone is interested the tested lights seem to be like this

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/9-SMD-LED-Pocket-Pen-Torch_60434529380.html (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/9-SMD-LED-Pocket-Pen-Torch_60434529380.html)

and this is likely a badged version

https://www.kincrome.com.au/smd-led-penlight (https://www.kincrome.com.au/smd-led-penlight)

Taking 3 x AAA hard to see how Batteriseroo sleeves are going to improve life unless they current limiting.

I bought one of those exact same penlights about a year ago, it gets occasional use and is still working well on the cheap zinc-carbon cells that it was supplied with. I'm fairly sure there are no active electronics in there so her/their description of it beginning to blink seems suspicious.

I suspect the whole thing; the text, the "test" and the images was supplied by Batteroo. Do you notice how in all the positive reviews the reviewer is "excited" by the Batteroo sleeves?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Tac Eht Xilef on March 20, 2017, 03:10:53 am

Quote from: Blocco on March 20, 2017, 12:49:35 am

I bought one of those exact same penlights about a year ago, it gets occasional use and is still working well on the cheap zinc-carbon cells that it was supplied with. I'm fairly sure there are no active electronics in there so her/their description of it beginning to blink seems suspicious.

I've got one somewhere that's almost exactly the same except without the magnet. Mine at least does have an undocumented blinking mode triggered by random button-pressing. It's totally inconsistent - sometimes you need to hold the button down for a few seconds when turning on, other times it starts if you half-press the button while it's on - so I assumed it was either a bug or half-implemented feature in the LED driver chip.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on March 20, 2017, 03:30:06 am

Apologies if I have missed it, but has anyone done a debunk of this page yet?
https://www.batteroo.com/blog/popular-battery-operated-toys.html (https://www.batteroo.com/blog/popular-battery-operated-toys.html)

In a nutshell, they 'scoured different message boards and blogs to see what sorts of toys everyone was buying'.  They picked the following toys:

Fisher-Price® Think & Learn Code-a-pillar™
The Go! Go! Smart Wheels® Train Station Playset by VTech®
Hatchimals
DreamWorks Trolls Hug Time Poppy
Star Wars Bladebuilders Jedi Master Lightsaber

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that these devices probably already have decent battery management already.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 20, 2017, 03:33:30 am

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on March 20, 2017, 03:30:06 am

Apologies if I have missed it, but has anyone done a debunk of this page yet?
https://www.batteroo.com/blog/popular-battery-operated-toys.html (https://www.batteroo.com/blog/popular-battery-operated-toys.html)

What a nice handy test for us to test!  :clap:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on March 20, 2017, 03:48:44 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 19, 2017, 11:38:32 pm

In December though they tried to hire me as an independent tester, which would of course, if I entertained the notion, had me under contract with various clauses no doubt. That failed  :P

It would have been interesting if you had strung them along up to the point where they actually provided you with the "contract" so we could see exactly what sort of terms they would have imposed on you. At which point of course you would refuse to sign their contract and eschew all further contact with them. But I'm curious to see the fine print they would have imposed. Definitely something that they'd hope would have seen you in court if you spoke your mind honestly, which was likely their end game in your case.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on March 20, 2017, 04:37:07 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 20, 2017, 03:33:30 am

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on March 20, 2017, 03:30:06 am

Apologies if I have missed it, but has anyone done a debunk of this page yet?
https://www.batteroo.com/blog/popular-battery-operated-toys.html (https://www.batteroo.com/blog/popular-battery-operated-toys.html)

What a nice handy test for us to test!  :clap:

Weird that they would post that list and no test results.
Maybe once they've actually done some tests, they will then conveniently forget to post them, and just leave the original post there so that people who don't read critically will just think it implies the Batteroo Boost actually helped.

There is also another blog post from that same day which talks about a rather ridiculous setup with a toy train for simulating GPS testing while moving around the backyard.
Even more amusing is that in the blog post is this sentence:

Quote

The ingenuity and creativity of the team at Batteroo is a testament to the ____ of the Batteroo itself!

I am reasonably sure that the blank word was supposed to be filled in before publishing.  Any suggestions?  >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 20, 2017, 06:38:41 am

Quote from: samgab on March 20, 2017, 03:48:44 am

It would have been interesting if you had strung them along up to the point where they actually provided you with the "contract" so we could see exactly what sort of terms they would have imposed on you.

That thought did cross my mind  >:D
But ultimately that would be a dick move, like buying dislikes, or publicly and knowingly slandering someone by saying they are paid by a battery company.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on March 20, 2017, 06:52:18 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 20, 2017, 06:38:41 am

But ultimately that would be a dick move, like buying dislikes, or publicly and knowingly slandering someone by saying they are paid by a battery company.

I see what you did there  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on March 20, 2017, 06:52:52 am

Quote

The ingenuity and creativity of the team at Batteroo is a testament to the ____ of the Batteroo itself!

Uselessness?

Quote

knowingly slandering someone

Slander is spoken, libel is written.  But considering it was an interview I'm not sure which way round this should be.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 20, 2017, 06:58:07 am

Quote from: Sonny_Jim on March 20, 2017, 06:52:52 am

Slander is spoken, libel is written.  But considering it was an interview I'm not sure which way round this should be.

Bob said it to the reporter on the phone who then wrote it.
In any case they have been legally one and the same in Australia since 2005.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 20, 2017, 06:59:10 am

Quote from: Kean on March 20, 2017, 04:37:07 am

There is also another blog post from that same day which talks about a rather ridiculous setup with a toy train for simulating GPS testing while moving around the backyard.
Even more amusing is that in the blog post is this sentence:

Quote

The ingenuity and creativity of the team at Batteroo is a testament to the ____ of the Batteroo itself!

I am reasonably sure that the blank word was supposed to be filled in before publishing.  Any suggestions?  >:D

Wankery?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on March 20, 2017, 09:45:09 am

Quote

The ingenuity and creativity of the team at Batteroo is a testament to the ____ of the Batteroo itself!

Batteroosery?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on March 20, 2017, 09:57:51 am

Quote from: Koen on March 19, 2017, 10:21:03 pm

Obviously, you can buy comments too. From "random users" or, better, "other bloggers" which will later promote the same product and confirm its usefulness.

On the hypothesis that those mouths will say whatever the highest bidder wants them to... I suppose if anyone really wants to and has the $$, they could have a bit of fun with making anti-Batteroo posts show up on those exact same sites.

It somewhat reminds me of this: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-hack-video-on-the-rigol-site (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-hack-video-on-the-rigol-site)!/

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on March 20, 2017, 02:44:01 pm

Quote from: amyk on March 20, 2017, 09:57:51 am

On the hypothesis that those mouths will say whatever the highest bidder wants them to... I suppose if anyone really wants to and has the $$, they could have a bit of fun with making anti-Batteroo posts show up on those exact same sites.

Anything even remotely critical or negative in any way will just be deleted...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on March 21, 2017, 11:35:08 am

Speaking of deletions, did ol' Bob just do another round of deletions from the IGG page, as I see the last comment was from 27 days ago?

EDIT: 
Why am I bothering to read the T&Cs on Batteroos website?  I must be bored, although I find it amusing the amount of typos in there, this part really takes the cake:

Quote

Batteroo further grants the User a limited, nonexclusive and revocable right to create a hyperlink to the Batteroo.com Site so long as the link does not portray Batteroo, its subsidiaries, and affiliates, or their respective products or services in a false, misleading, derogatory, or otherwise offensive matter.

 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on March 21, 2017, 12:10:49 pm

before deletion the last comment was 14/15 days ago

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on March 21, 2017, 12:38:26 pm

Quote

"does not portray Batteroo, its subsidiaries, and affiliates, or their respective products or services in a false, misleading, derogatory, or otherwise offensive matter."

I can't see any possible way to fall short of this clause!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on March 21, 2017, 12:49:51 pm

Quote from: SL4P on March 21, 2017, 12:38:26 pm

Quote

"does not portray Batteroo, its subsidiaries, and affiliates, or their respective products or services in a false, misleading, derogatory, or otherwise offensive matter."

I can't see any possible way to fall short of this clause!

They don't want the users getting involved in what they consider their sole responsibility. :)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on March 21, 2017, 03:18:04 pm

Batteroo refund polcy page came up as recently changed in a search. Anyone have watches set to know if/how it changed?

Quote

No refunds. While we are happy to give new replacements for defective products, we do not give refunds.

No returns because Batteroo doesn’t fit in a specific device: Battery compartments vary in size, And we do not accept returns Just because that there wasn’t enough room for the Batteroo Boost to fit inside a specific device. Don’t worry, for every compartment where the Batteroo Boost does not fit, there will be  others where it will fit fine. Please see our best practices guide at https://www.batteroo.com/blog/batteroo-boost-best-practices.html (https://www.batteroo.com/blog/batteroo-boost-best-practices.html) for more guidance on inserting the Batteroo boost.

No returns in cases where Batteroo Boost Doesn’t benefit a specific device:  We designed Batteroo so that you could get the most benefit from the widest range of devices. However,  we don’t guarantee that all of your devices will benefit from Batteroo boost. We do not accept returns just because Batteroo doesn’t benefit your particular device.

Doesn't fit - NO REFUND, doesn't work - NO REFUND. Not exactly generous is it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on March 21, 2017, 03:27:29 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on March 21, 2017, 03:18:04 pm

Doesn't fit - NO REFUND, doesn't work - NO REFUND. Not exactly generous is it.

This is hilarious and says everything you need to know about the product :o Compare this to good products, like http://littlebits.cc (http://littlebits.cc) "HAPPINESS GUARANTEED  no-questions-asked returns" and everything you can buy at Amazon etc. Once I bought a headset from Amazon, the reviews were good, but the microphone was too quiet. Just a click for printing the no-postage-fees-return-sticker, bring it to the post office, full refund after some days. Of course, you can't do this if your product is crap, as the Batteroo sleeve is.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on March 21, 2017, 04:57:47 pm

There's no need for debunking the batterisers, just publicising their own returns policy will do. :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on March 21, 2017, 05:13:26 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on March 21, 2017, 03:27:29 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on March 21, 2017, 03:18:04 pm

Doesn't fit - NO REFUND, doesn't work - NO REFUND. Not exactly generous is it.

This is hilarious and says everything you need to know about the product :o Compare this to good products, like http://littlebits.cc (http://littlebits.cc) "HAPPINESS GUARANTEED  no-questions-asked returns" and everything you can buy at Amazon etc. Once I bought a headset from Amazon, the reviews were good, but the microphone was too quiet. Just a click for printing the no-postage-fees-return-sticker, bring it to the post office, full refund after some days. Of course, you can't do this if your product is crap, as the Batteroo sleeve is.

Oh yeah, their "Guarantee", which is basically that it's "safe to use under normal usage".  That's it, and it's followed by "Improper use of Batteroo can cause battery shortage, fire or injury".  And they've already had customers/investors complain about the things melting their devices.  I'm only surprised they haven't been sued yet (or have they?)

Dave

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on March 21, 2017, 06:29:21 pm

To paraphrase the Batteroo Terms and Conditions:

Quote

We do not give refunds just because Batteroo sleeves don't meet the claims we made for them

Apart from showing a contempt for their customers, they must surely be skating on thin ice from a consumer protection/ legal standpoint.

Since they don't provide a comprehensive list of products for which the sleeves fit and bring a performance benefit to, they are effectively transferring all the risk onto the purchaser. It is not good enough to say

Quote

Don’t worry, for every compartment where the Batteroo Boost does not fit, there will be  others where it will fit fine.

because most purchasers will have a particular device in mind. I.e. Batteroo are selling something which they acknowledge is potentially useless and then pulling the shutters down when the customer returns.

I think it reasonable that retailers are not obliged to offer refunds if the customer purchases an incompatible product, as long as the retailer provided an accurate specification and did not misrepresent the product i.e. it was correctly sold but the purchaser made the mistake. However, with Batteroo, it is impossible for the purchaser to assess the compatibility of the sleeves until after purchase so, in their case, I find it hard to believe that they are not legally obliged to offer refunds.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on March 21, 2017, 06:59:33 pm

Quote from: Blocco on March 21, 2017, 06:29:21 pm

It is not good enough to say

Quote

Don’t worry, for every compartment where the Batteroo Boost does not fit, there will be  others where it will fit fine.

because most purchasers will have a particular device in mind. I.e. Batteroo are selling something which they acknowledge is potentially useless and then pulling the shutters down when the customer returns.

I wonder why they write this now on their website? Maybe 99% of all customers already sent it back? ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on March 21, 2017, 08:32:25 pm

Quote from: Blocco on March 21, 2017, 06:29:21 pm

Apart from showing a contempt for their customers, they must surely be skating on thin ice from a consumer protection/ legal standpoint.

Since they don't provide a comprehensive list of products for which the sleeves fit and bring a performance benefit to, they are effectively transferring all the risk onto the purchaser.

Awww....  How quaint!  :)

Once again here we apparently have someone posting from outside North America where the diktat is US-driven caveat emptor, seemingly with the entire force of government squarely behind the commercial, corporate strategy of repealing or simply ignoring any kind of consumer protection (or really any other kind of) regulation that might possibly stifle the profit taking...  Including pressure for all "good" neighbors to follow suit!

I don't think some of you folks in other parts of the world have even begun to realize just how deep this systemic wankery goes.  It is absolutely breathtaking to behold up close!!  Even from outside the US proper, the stench is ghastly...

This Batteroo-style hypocrisy is the norm in these circles.  :palm:

I first learned of the Batteriser from a newsveritzement "story" on MY LOCAL NEWS!!  FFS!!

This kind of outright duplicity has to stop!!  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on March 21, 2017, 11:48:24 pm

I think the EEVBlog could be considered complicit in Batteroo's guarantee sidestep.

Batteroo could point the finger here and claim the potential shortcomings have been well documented - and that if customers had performed any sort of "due diligence" before purchase, they would have come across this information.


That's crap, I know, but I wouldn't put it past them - even though that would be perhaps the most hypocritical act I could imagine.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on March 22, 2017, 12:27:11 am

Quote from: drussell on March 20, 2017, 02:44:01 pm

Quote from: amyk on March 20, 2017, 09:57:51 am

On the hypothesis that those mouths will say whatever the highest bidder wants them to... I suppose if anyone really wants to and has the $$, they could have a bit of fun with making anti-Batteroo posts show up on those exact same sites.

Anything even remotely critical or negative in any way will just be deleted...

No, you misunderstand. I meant that these spam-bloggers will write an article about anything if you pay them enough.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on March 22, 2017, 03:30:59 am

I'm fairly sure that in a few jurisdictions it's illegal to not allow refunds and only replacements on a faulty product.  But seeing that their T&Cs seem to be cut & pasted from a few different sources and have not been proof read, wouldn't surprise me if they had no idea about this.

It's fairly obvious that they just grabbed some random text and did a search and replace for the company name, as it's usually around the name where the typos are:
http://imgur.com/a/5cbWO (http://imgur.com/a/5cbWO)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on March 22, 2017, 03:48:43 pm

Latest fodder for the autoresponder ...

(http://i.imgur.com/gsp4qoi.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on March 22, 2017, 05:35:31 pm

Unless I've suddenly gotten confused (wouldn't be a surprise), several deleted complaints have reappeared on the IGG site.  I wonder if someone complained to IGG who then cancelled the deletes.

Fun fun fun.

(http://i.imgur.com/w8yHuyv.png)

and

(http://i.imgur.com/FNCCUX5.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on March 23, 2017, 12:09:06 am

More comments and more problems with the sleeves

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on March 23, 2017, 02:02:48 am

That deadlock has a slide in battery pack, I can't tell from the pdfs but there's probably plenty of metal around.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00Q3N513E/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00Q3N513E/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

and I bet it draws a lot of current!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on March 24, 2017, 12:52:44 am

Even if it's not shorted, I bet all sorts of switching feedbacks and stuffs are causing issue. And then we have the current consumption which is ginormous no doubt. Finally a product that "works"!  :-DD

Been wondering if any product out there can make the batterpoo combust into a nice firework... Though I doubt he's going to trust them anymore, test a piss-poor cheap (well not really) scam sleeve and lose your many many order of magnitude more expensive gadget! No one in their sane mind would do that (well... save for a certain distributor somewhere in Aussie  |O )

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on March 24, 2017, 03:23:04 am

I have a funny feeling that IGG might have given them a rap on the knuckles for the 'automated' responses they were putting out, as it seems ol' Bob is actually _reading_ the comments and responding to them.  Unsurprisingly neither of the tracking numbers he's provided actually work though:
LB504115617SE
LB504149125SE

(http://i.imgur.com/LmR9fKZ.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Koen on March 24, 2017, 03:29:36 am

They both work ?

http://www.postnord.se/en/online-tools/tools/track/track-and-trace#dynamicloading=true&shipmentid=LB504115617SE (http://www.postnord.se/en/online-tools/tools/track/track-and-trace#dynamicloading=true&shipmentid=LB504115617SE)
http://www.postnord.se/en/online-tools/tools/track/track-and-trace#dynamicloading=true&shipmentid=LB504149125SE (http://www.postnord.se/en/online-tools/tools/track/track-and-trace#dynamicloading=true&shipmentid=LB504149125SE)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Koen on March 24, 2017, 03:36:26 am

Funny stuff on the parcel to Belgium :
 - VAT, customs, fees were €36,
 - it was returned to sender because the street was missing from the address.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Sonny_Jim on March 24, 2017, 03:42:18 am

Ah ok, I was plugging them into the Fedex tracking site and they didn't seem to work:
https://www.fedex.com/apps/fedextrack/ (https://www.fedex.com/apps/fedextrack/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Koen on March 24, 2017, 03:58:01 am

Oh, you sweet summer child, that's another one of Bob's genuine mistakes. :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on March 24, 2017, 04:01:11 am

They appear to have used Direct Link out of Sweden - isn't that the shipping used by Dave (unintentionally) for his rulers, which caused significant delays?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on March 24, 2017, 04:05:04 am

Quote from: Kean on March 24, 2017, 04:01:11 am

They appear to have used Direct Link out of Sweden - isn't that the shipping used by Dave (unintentionally) for his rulers, which caused significant delays?

Yep, same one.
They are notoriously bad.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on March 24, 2017, 04:06:57 am

Quote from: EEVblog on March 24, 2017, 04:05:04 am

Quote from: Kean on March 24, 2017, 04:01:11 am

They appear to have used Direct Link out of Sweden - isn't that the shipping used by Dave (unintentionally) for his rulers, which caused significant delays?

Yep, same one.
They are notoriously bad.

Fits in perfectly with the subject matter then  ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Koen on March 24, 2017, 04:10:02 am

Yet their part of the deal, transferring it to Belgium, only took a week. And during the Christmas rush if I may add (14/12->21/12).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on March 24, 2017, 12:39:19 pm

Another comment for the record

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on March 25, 2017, 11:40:53 am

New Video upload from batteroo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL4OIBgyTOI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL4OIBgyTOI)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on March 25, 2017, 01:02:05 pm

Nice company. No money to hire someone to answer the support eMails or for a decent refund policy, but no problem to produce new videos.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on March 25, 2017, 04:08:58 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on March 25, 2017, 11:40:53 am

New Video upload from batteroo

It is just a copy of one they posted a week ago (and bought 50k views for).

I just noticed Frankie was a guest speaker at Santa Clara University's School of Engineering "Lunch with an Entrepreneur" last month.

Quote

His current venture is a device that has the potential to extend the life of disposable batteries by up to 8x their normal range. As an upstart in this $15 billion market, his company has been the target of online smear campaigns and industrial espionage, but Roohhparvar relishes the challenges, knowing they reap great rewards. “Even in the darkest moments,” he said, “I know that once I get around the problem, I’ll get a lot of experience from it.

Better he had spoken at the school of psychology "Lunch with a con man" or "Delusion and me" events.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Domagoj T on March 25, 2017, 06:09:40 pm

Wonder if any of the students attending there are members of this forum. I don't want to dox anybody, but it would be kind of awkward for Rooh if he got asked some pointy questions.
Amusing for us, though.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on March 25, 2017, 07:34:56 pm

Oh dear, it seems like the whole world is against Batteroo.

Here are just a few of the obstacles they've had to deal with:

-Online smear capaign
-Industrial espionage
-"Big battery" conspiracy
-Energizer lawsuit
-Product manufacturers making their products' battery compartments too small

If this "game changing" invention ever sees the light of day we'll all be ruined, it must be stopped I tell you!!! :rant:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Koen on March 25, 2017, 08:44:01 pm

Worse, they had to deal with clients expecting a functional product true to their marketing claims and delivered on time.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on March 26, 2017, 01:14:39 am

Quote from: Hensingler on March 25, 2017, 04:08:58 pm

Better he had spoken at the school of psychology "Lunch with a con man" or "Delusion and me" events.

Did you write that before or after checking out SCUSoE.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on March 27, 2017, 08:11:12 pm

New video out, still claiming 80% left in "dead" battery's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs_pZblMwJI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs_pZblMwJI)
Stats: (let's see when it hits 10.000+ views)
EDIT: 1 april 2017 - 161 Views
EDIT: 4 april 2017 - 178 Views
EDIT: 5 april 2017 - 189 Views
EDIT: 7 april 2017 - 230 Views
EDIT: 9 april 2017 - 251 Views
EDIT: 12 april 2017 - 271 Views
EDIT: 14 april 2017 - 292 Views

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: The Soulman on March 27, 2017, 08:25:08 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on March 27, 2017, 08:11:12 pm

New video out, still claiming 8x more battery life

Where did he say that? Haven't noticed it but could have missed it, not going to watch that crappy cartoon with crappy music again.

And in what civilized country do people still trow batteries in the landfill??

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on March 27, 2017, 08:42:02 pm

Just corrected it to 80% battery left in "dead" battery, it's in the first 15 seconds

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: D3f1ant on March 28, 2017, 05:40:59 am

 It's funny that their little cartoon shows a corded keyboard as an example

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on March 28, 2017, 05:00:19 pm

And that's their new invention! Wired Keyboard, 800000000000% more battery life! (because it uses f**k all)  |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on March 29, 2017, 10:40:59 pm

I errr........ I don't know what to say..... :palm:

https://youtu.be/SGLuaxl7jdw

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amirm on March 29, 2017, 10:43:22 pm

Quote from: Blocco on March 29, 2017, 10:40:59 pm

I errr........ I don't know what to say..... :palm:

https://youtu.be/SGLuaxl7jdw

Boy, this guy is good!  Wonder what he did in past life.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jpc on March 29, 2017, 10:48:47 pm

Quote from: Blocco on Today at 22:40:59 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=48950.msg1173534#msg1173534)

I errr........ I don't know what to say..... :palm:

Me neither. Is the batterpoo going to add a new category to the Darwin Awards.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on March 30, 2017, 12:13:22 am

Quote from: amirm on March 29, 2017, 10:43:22 pm

Boy, this guy is good!  Wonder what he did in past life.

Who is he? it's obviously not his first video.
Still it's good of batterloo to be providing more evidence for the court case.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on March 30, 2017, 12:18:11 am

I love the way he looks up at the end (1:23) as if to get approval from whomever was coaching him through that cow pat of a presentation.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on March 30, 2017, 12:57:04 am

1970's infomercial... ?
There are so many things wrong with this in today's environment - except for Bob's target market - over 70's that know zero about batteries, and have a reasonably high disposable income.

'Marketing 101', but also 'sleazy business practices 101'

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on March 30, 2017, 01:02:41 am

batteryflatterloos - recommended for medical devices where you don't want to be unexpectedly caught out with a flat battery.  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on March 30, 2017, 04:55:59 am

Quote from: amirm on March 29, 2017, 10:43:22 pm

Boy, this guy is good!  Wonder what he did in past life.

Probably an actor and a bad one who ended up needing to whore himself for batteroo to make $500.

It is the guy who did the dumb video with nose and glasses mask last month.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on March 30, 2017, 08:48:23 pm

Quote from: StillTrying on March 30, 2017, 12:13:22 am

Who is he? it's obviously not his first video.
Still it's good of batterloo to be providing more evidence for the court case.

You can find him by copying the title of the video and go to YT and search on it.  It seems this is his second video.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkkMmXFI285uQVlIxdxGiOQ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkkMmXFI285uQVlIxdxGiOQ)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on April 05, 2017, 10:17:32 pm

I was notified because of my Batteroo search on eBay, someone is selling it:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/322473298190 (http://www.ebay.de/itm/322473298190)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ebastler on April 06, 2017, 06:55:26 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on April 05, 2017, 10:17:32 pm

I was notified because of my Batteroo search on eBay, someone is selling it:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/322473298190 (http://www.ebay.de/itm/322473298190)

"Attention - leftover stock only!"  ;)
A prescient reseller...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on April 06, 2017, 01:12:21 pm

 Hot - 2 views per hour (proud of myself, didn't need to translate it LOL).

Yeah, Batteroos are hot, all right.....  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: LabSpokane on April 06, 2017, 11:37:33 pm

Quote from: Blocco on March 29, 2017, 10:40:59 pm

I errr........ I don't know what to say..... :palm:

If this guy makes enough money to hire an interior decorator, it was all worth it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on April 07, 2017, 07:52:21 am

Quote from: LabSpokane on April 06, 2017, 11:37:33 pm

Quote from: Blocco on March 29, 2017, 10:40:59 pm

I errr........ I don't know what to say..... :palm:

If this guy makes enough money to hire an interior decorator, it was all worth it.

The fashion police have probably already kicked his door in and taken him away.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HighVoltage on April 07, 2017, 08:12:13 am

Quote from: ebastler on April 06, 2017, 06:55:26 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on April 05, 2017, 10:17:32 pm

I was notified because of my Batteroo search on eBay, someone is selling it:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/322473298190 (http://www.ebay.de/itm/322473298190)

"Attention - leftover stock only!"  ;)
A prescient reseller...

And this seller is the only one offering them in Europe and still not sold.
And since no one needs them for testing purpose anymore, they will probably not sell at all. :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: max_torque on April 07, 2017, 10:35:49 am

Quote from: amirm on March 29, 2017, 10:43:22 pm

Quote from: Blocco on March 29, 2017, 10:40:59 pm

I errr........ I don't know what to say..... :palm:

https://youtu.be/SGLuaxl7jdw

Boy, this guy is good!  Wonder what he did in past life.

Between 0:06 and 0:16 he says:

"It's a sleeve that wraps around the battery which you then put in your device, and with micro circuitry, draws every last little bit of electricity out of that device"


er,  that should charge the battery up nicely!!  No wonder the batteries last 8x longer..........    :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on April 07, 2017, 11:27:41 am

Quote

draws every last little bit of electricity out of that device

Well he's sort of half right, he just left out the bit explaining how it's not 100% efficient and therefore is wasting the energy in the battery and as a result it isn't available to the device you are trying to power.  :horse:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on April 09, 2017, 02:55:18 pm

Well Batteroo have apparently changed tactics lately, they are responding to comments on https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-extend-battery-life-significantly#/comments (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-extend-battery-life-significantly#/comments), and the last video posted to youtube only have 243 views now after 13/14 days.

So:
Answering questions, not deleting them on indiegogo.
So far no buying likes/views on youtube.

Have they run out of money or have they noticed that we keep records of deleted comments and bought views?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on April 12, 2017, 05:05:50 am

I've seen my fair share of passivity and 'compliance' in many companies.. could it be that they're being audited?  :scared:
I'm kinda wondering what kind of company that Korean telecom thingie is to give total free reign to their US branch... but eh seems like a lot of companies do that so surprised I am not

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ebastler on April 12, 2017, 05:14:03 am

@Luminax - wrong thread, or did I miss some connection there?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on April 12, 2017, 11:56:21 am

Well... last I checked this is the Baterpoo thread so yeah I was mentioning about them...
although what I mentioned might have been a very optimistic view from a very pessimistic tired man who have seen his fair share of company gears that just looks beautiful on the outside...

So yeah... I'm just making some wild assumptions that one of their VC or big investor(s) might've initiated an audit that caused an 'above board' trend.... just... maybe........

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ebastler on April 12, 2017, 01:35:55 pm

Thanks Luminax. No worries; it's just that the connection with the Korean telecom had escaped me (and still does, to be honest...  ;)).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on April 12, 2017, 02:25:46 pm

SK Telecom America is their original "Landlord" as in their space in Sunnyvale is actually SK Telecom America's space for their "Innopartners" thingamabob as you can see here :

https://www.batteroo.com/about-us (https://www.batteroo.com/about-us)
http://sktainnopartners.com/portfolio/ (http://sktainnopartners.com/portfolio/)

and the parent company is SK Telecom from Korea

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on April 12, 2017, 02:27:49 pm

Quote from: ebastler on April 12, 2017, 01:35:55 pm

...it's just that the connection with the Korean telecom had escaped me (and still does, to be honest...  ;)).

One of the major VC investors in Batteroo is SK Telecom.

Perhaps you need to go back and re-read some of the thread?   ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ebastler on April 12, 2017, 09:23:00 pm

Quote from: drussell on April 12, 2017, 02:27:49 pm

One of the major VC investors in Batteroo is SK Telecom.
Perhaps you need to go back and re-read some of the thread?   ;)

Like, back to posts from 2016? No thanks, I am not that much of a Batteroo aficinado (or scholar)  ;)
Thank you for the background detail that provided the missing link!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on April 13, 2017, 06:03:20 am

Quote from: ebastler on April 12, 2017, 09:23:00 pm

Like, back to posts from 2016? No thanks, I am not that much of a Batteroo aficinado (or scholar)  ;)

As much as I hate to reduce the S:N ratio of this thread...  My 2¢...

There are plenty of threads on many different forums scattered across the internet with a plethora of valuable information on many topics.  You're the one posting to an already lengthy topic just to chastise someone else for supposedly not knowing what they're taking about when it is actually you who hasn't done their homework and bothered to do their research by reading or searching the discussion.   >:D 

Quote

Thank you for the background detail that provided the missing link!

I realize this kind of discussion can become very long and it can be an arduous journey to follow the entire path completely but a quick google search specifying the site=eevblog would have found your answers and eliminated any confusion on your part even if you weren't actually interested in every sordid detail of this silly saga.  :)

(Though, I would highly suggest that anyone with even a cursory interest in this debacle read the whole thread even if it takes some time and attention!  It is a very educational exercise from many perspectives!  YMMV, I suppose, depending on your level of interest in these fields of electronics....)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 13, 2017, 06:11:39 am

Quote from: drussell on April 13, 2017, 06:03:20 am

Quote from: ebastler on April 12, 2017, 09:23:00 pm

Like, back to posts from 2016? No thanks, I am not that much of a Batteroo aficinado (or scholar)  ;)

As much as I hate to reduce the S:N ratio of this thread...  My 2¢...

There are plenty of threads on many different forums scattered across the internet with a plethora of valuable information on many topics.  You're the one posting to an already lengthy topic just to chastise someone else for supposedly not knowing what they're taking about when it is actually you who hasn't done their homework and bothered to do their research by reading or searching the discussion.   >:D 

This is a danger that anyone with a strong opinion and a lazy approach.  A word to those people: If you can't be bothered doing the research before posting something that shows this - then don't post.

If you do - you're only embarrassing yourself.


There are ways of joining in with a long running thread without being so clumsy.


(S/N now less than 15dB ... and falling.)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mc172 on April 13, 2017, 07:43:54 am

Jesus, nice to see that people need to jump on their high horses because they remember a detail from a year ago on page xyz in a 350 page thread that someone else didn't. :-- :-- :--

Quote from: Brumby on April 13, 2017, 06:11:39 am

This is a danger that anyone with a strong opinion and a lazy approach.  A word to those people: If you can't be bothered doing the research before posting something that shows this - then don't post.

Brumby, you don't half talk some crap. Do the research? How was ebastler supposed to know that this:

Quote from: Luminax on April 12, 2017, 05:05:50 am

I'm kinda wondering what kind of company that Korean telecom thingie is to give total free reign to their US branch... but eh seems like a lot of companies do that so surprised I am not

...was even a reference to this thread, other than it being posted in this thread?

I've read this entire thread and I also had no idea what the Korean thing was all about. Cue comments about me being inadequate, thick, not paying attention...  :-DD :blah:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 13, 2017, 08:13:03 am

Talking about crap.....  Try just reading what was written rather than reading between the lines.

Refer to my post.


I cited one particular statement - and another member's comment on it.

In case you still can't work it out - my comments were in relation to this, specific, attitude:

Quote from: ebastler on April 12, 2017, 09:23:00 pm

Like, back to posts from 2016? No thanks, I am not that much of a Batteroo aficinado (or scholar)

NOW - to make things perfectly clear, this, in itself, is NOT a bad thing - we all have limited time at our disposal.  But if someone wants to go big with such an attitude on a matter that has been addressed, then things aren't going to go smoothly.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mc172 on April 13, 2017, 08:33:49 am

Quote from: mc172 on April 13, 2017, 07:43:54 am

Cue comments about me being inadequate, thick, not paying attention...

Quote from: Brumby on April 13, 2017, 08:13:03 am

In case you still can't work it out

 :clap:

I don't think not wanting to sift through 350 pages for one mention of Korea is unreasonable.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 13, 2017, 09:44:12 am

Ah...

Oh, forget it.

I'll just go sit in the corner and chew my leg off.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on April 13, 2017, 10:01:52 am

You need some sauce with that?  :P

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on April 13, 2017, 10:22:24 am

Quote from: ebastler on April 12, 2017, 01:35:55 pm

Thanks Luminax. No worries; it's just that the connection with the Korean telecom had escaped me (and still does, to be honest...  ;)).

They're in the same office building as Batteroo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on April 13, 2017, 11:12:55 am

I know I'm nitpicking here, but that sentence make it seems like they're sharing office when in fact SK Telecom is the landlord, and Batteroo is just a meagre tenant.
I'm still surprised SK Telecom America haven't booted them out yet... perhaps they're in too-ultra-deep in the brown stuff to pull back out now... Though I really doubt they'd see any return of investment without some type of big-name wholesale deal

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ebastler on April 13, 2017, 12:27:20 pm

Quote from: Brumby on April 13, 2017, 08:13:03 am

I cited one particular statement - and another member's comment on it.

In case you still can't work it out - my comments were in relation to this, specific, attitude:

Quote from: ebastler on April 12, 2017, 09:23:00 pm

Like, back to posts from 2016? No thanks, I am not that much of a Batteroo aficinado (or scholar)

NOW - to make things perfectly clear, this, in itself, is NOT a bad thing - we all have limited time at our disposal.  But if someone wants to go big with such an attitude on a matter that has been addressed, then things aren't going to go smoothly.

In your quote, you conveniently deleted the smiley from my post. And the "Thank you" that followed, right in the next sentence. This very much distorts the "attitude" you elected to find in my post.

Anyway, feel free to work yourself into whatever state you want on this matter. Enjoy!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 13, 2017, 03:31:22 pm

Sorry.  From what I meant to say, things have gone sideways and it's not going to be easy to straighten things out.  I accept my effort was clumsy.

Just call me a dickhead, ignore what I said and let us move on.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ebastler on April 13, 2017, 03:52:22 pm

Quote from: Brumby on April 13, 2017, 03:31:22 pm

Sorry.  From what I meant to say, things have gone sideways and it's not going to be easy to straighten things out.  I accept my effort was clumsy.

Just call me a dickhead, ignore what I said and let us move on.

Thank you very much. Same here -- I certainly had not meant to be antagonistic with my initial posts on the Korean connection, and was taken by surprise by the hostile reaction. Sorry if this came across the wrong way, and I'd be  happy to close this case.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on April 13, 2017, 04:12:30 pm

Quote from: Brumby on April 13, 2017, 03:31:22 pm

Just call me a dickhead, ...

Be careful what you ask for, you may get it.  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on April 13, 2017, 04:52:14 pm

You know... this all started because I gave batterpoo gang the benefit of the doubt...
 |O |O |O |O
I would like to be discharged and thrown into the landfill now thank you...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ebastler on April 13, 2017, 07:35:09 pm

Quote from: Luminax on April 13, 2017, 04:52:14 pm

You know... this all started because I gave batterpoo gang the benefit of the doubt...

They rather deserve the doubt of the benefit...  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 14, 2017, 08:11:29 am

New page....

We start afresh.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cyberdragon on April 19, 2017, 04:02:16 am

New goal: the longest thread on EEVblog forum (if it isn't already). And eventually...the longest thread on the internet...lets hit 10k+ replies soon (what even is the longest thread on the internet?).

On topic: has anyone exploded these things on video yet?

EDIT: 300k+ for record territory...GO GO GO!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on April 19, 2017, 07:46:58 am

Another deluded customer...

(http://i.imgur.com/RFzecPM.png)

I don't know which claim he's talking about because I don't recall it ever being: "Batteroo increases battery life by 25-33%".

Jacob Dambergs doesn't seem to realise that, even if his "1/4 to 1/3 additional working life" claim is correct, he may have to use each Batteroo sleeve around 30-40 times to break even on his "investment".....  but, he will probably need to buy a new set of magic sleeves before he reaches those numbers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on April 19, 2017, 09:54:44 am

That's assuming those pisseroo doesn't fry any $1,000,000,000 device first... in which case the ROI would be...  :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on April 21, 2017, 01:50:36 am

"just need to remember to take them off when changing the batteries."

Yes, because it's easy to miss the fact that the old batteries were jammed in with some contraption, while the new ones fit perfectly.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on April 23, 2017, 01:31:49 am

And on and on it goes.

The world needs Battero because landfill

https://www.batteroo.com/blog/batteroo-landfills.html (https://www.batteroo.com/blog/batteroo-landfills.html)

The world needs batteroo because troops

https://www.batteroo.com/blog/batteroo-troops.html (https://www.batteroo.com/blog/batteroo-troops.html)

And the only genuine Batteroo fan gives an honest and valued opinion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW8CrXa-kZA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW8CrXa-kZA)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on April 23, 2017, 02:08:57 am

Quote from: Hensingler

... And the only genuine Batteroo fan gives an honest and valued opinion ..

WOW, certainly gives Dave a serve ~15:30+ :-)   This guy seems genuine, think I'll switch sides :-)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on April 23, 2017, 05:03:38 am

Quote from: digsys on April 23, 2017, 02:08:57 am

WOW, certainly gives Dave a serve ~15:30+ :-)   This guy seems genuine, think I'll switch sides :-)

You have a really high pain resistance, watching the whole video :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 23, 2017, 06:24:54 am

Yeah - he is hard to watch for more than 30 seconds.

In talking about Bob R. you really have to wonder about his criteria for assessing credibility - and I quote: "That's why I really know this guy's legit - because he got attacked so much."

His approach would get the nod from conspiracy theorists around the world and his testing "method" is not even as solid as his rust-laden cars.  Certainly there are some aspects of the Batteroo sleeve that we can agree could be useful in specific circumstances - but he seems happy to take these as fundamental validation of every aspect of the Batteroo claims.

Also, trying to discuss (let alone challenge) the subject with him that requires clear and objective thinking with an appreciation for the details will just make you throw your hands up in anguish.  I know, I tried some months ago.  The sad thing is that he takes his steamroller approach as a victory.

Interesting that he didn't like the video of his "testing" of the sleeves...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: steverino on April 23, 2017, 08:01:47 pm

If he panned his camera around, we'd get a nice shot of the trailer he lives in.  Makes me proud to be an American!   :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on April 23, 2017, 09:01:53 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on April 23, 2017, 01:31:49 am

And on and on it goes.

The world needs batteroo because troops

https://www.batteroo.com/blog/batteroo-troops.html (https://www.batteroo.com/blog/batteroo-troops.html)

As with all Batteroo marketing this article is bogus and misleading because the military don't use Batteroo sleeves in their equipment and never will.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on April 23, 2017, 09:16:51 pm

Quote from: Blocco on April 23, 2017, 09:01:53 pm

As with all Batteroo marketing this article is bogus and misleading because the military don't actually use Batteroo sleeves in there equipment and never will.

They didn't write that they are using it. But the article they are citing doesn't exist anymore. But looks right, someone here were citing it, too:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg763176/#msg763176 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg763176/#msg763176)

Maybe Batteroo even got the link from here? Of course, the military will test it before they buy it and if the results are as with all independent results so far, that using the sleeves from the beginning reduces the battery life, they won't use it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on April 23, 2017, 10:10:46 pm

Anyway, here's another one, Batteroo are now attempting to give this crap away... just look at the excitement :wtf: on the faces of the lucky recipients..  :-DD

https://youtu.be/Gkthn6sa86o

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on April 24, 2017, 05:50:18 am

Quote from: steverino on April 23, 2017, 08:01:47 pm

If he panned his camera around, we'd get a nice shot of the trailer he lives in.  Makes me proud to be an American!   :palm:

One thing I noticed was the generous number of appearances of the Confederate flag.  This may be an appalling and unfair understanding - but that always suggested a particular stereotype to me...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on April 24, 2017, 08:04:38 am

Quote from: Brumby on April 24, 2017, 05:50:18 am

Quote from: steverino on April 23, 2017, 08:01:47 pm

If he panned his camera around, we'd get a nice shot of the trailer he lives in.  Makes me proud to be an American!   :palm:

One thing I noticed was the generous number of appearances of the Confederate flag.  This may be an appalling and unfair understanding - but that always suggested a particular stereotype to me...

What sort of stereotype would that be....  ::) https://www.forwardprogressives.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/idiot-with-gun.jpg (https://www.forwardprogressives.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/idiot-with-gun.jpg)

McBryce.

Edit: Thanks Frozenfrogz. Strangely, the link worked the first time I tested it but stopped working after that? It was possibly in my cache.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: frozenfrogz on April 24, 2017, 08:19:28 am

Quote from: McBryce on April 24, 2017, 08:04:38 am

What sort of stereotype would that be....  ::) https://www.forwardprogressives.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/idiot-with-gun.jpg (https://www.forwardprogressives.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/idiot-with-gun.jpg)
McBryce.

Nothing to see here...

Edit: Fixed that for you.
(http://s1.postimg.org/9wdmu3d8f/image.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: orion242 on April 25, 2017, 08:20:23 pm

Quote from: frozenfrogz on April 24, 2017, 08:19:28 am

Quote from: McBryce on April 24, 2017, 08:04:38 am

What sort of stereotype would that be....  ::) https://www.forwardprogressives.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/idiot-with-gun.jpg (https://www.forwardprogressives.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/idiot-with-gun.jpg)
McBryce.

Nothing to see here...

Edit: Fixed that for you.
(http://s1.postimg.org/9wdmu3d8f/image.jpg)

LOL

Stop making fun of my family.....

When isis comes to town, you'll be glad they are there....as long as they are sober enough to aim in the right direction at least.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on May 06, 2017, 07:29:22 pm

A new batch of videos from batteroo, really lame and non-scientific "test's"/reviews.
BUT the last video before these i linked to last time have not gotten payed views for once.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLbPVPno3BM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLbPVPno3BM)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh5-GNh6VFM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh5-GNh6VFM)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QqrRJtI-Ko (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QqrRJtI-Ko)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vKSwfgWw_k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vKSwfgWw_k)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2yJqu5At6w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2yJqu5At6w)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on May 06, 2017, 11:50:56 pm

Datasheet (of sorts) for their switcher chip on their web site

https://www.batteroo.com/technology-page/ (https://www.batteroo.com/technology-page/)

Haven't noticed before so I assume it is a recent addition.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: digsys on May 07, 2017, 12:02:32 am

Nice find, and the specs looks pretty good !! It can be quite a useful chip. Pity they over-sold it !! History

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on May 09, 2017, 05:04:58 am

Quote from: digsys on May 07, 2017, 12:02:32 am

Nice find, and the specs looks pretty good !! It can be quite a useful chip. Pity they over-sold it !! History

The specs are, indeed, great, but I'm wondering whether it really is useful... How many applications actually need a 1.3-1.6V power supply? A cheap microcontroller won't run off that (with a few exceptions specifically designed for single-battery operation). And if you need 1.8V, or 3.3V, you'd need two of these regulators and then another regulator for your final voltage... This is basically the best IC for Batteroo's application (and we've discussed to death whether that is a useful product) but I'm finding it a little hard to conceive of other use cases for it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on May 09, 2017, 06:12:21 am

They've got a working chip.  Can't be all that hard to respin with a different output voltage.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on May 09, 2017, 08:55:03 am

Quote from: janekm on May 09, 2017, 05:04:58 am

The specs are, indeed, great, but I'm wondering whether it really is useful... How many applications actually need a 1.3-1.6V power supply? A cheap microcontroller won't run off that (with a few exceptions specifically designed for single-battery operation). And if you need 1.8V, or 3.3V, you'd need two of these regulators and then another regulator for your final voltage... This is basically the best IC for Batteroo's application (and we've discussed to death whether that is a useful product) but I'm finding it a little hard to conceive of other use cases for it.

Same here.
Nice chip, but not much practical utility. If there was practical utility the regular makers would have had a chip for it long ago.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on May 09, 2017, 08:57:36 am

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on May 06, 2017, 07:29:22 pm

A new batch of videos from batteroo, really lame and non-scientific "test's"/reviews.
BUT the last video before these i linked to last time have not gotten payed views for once.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLbPVPno3BM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLbPVPno3BM)

Wow, they spent some money on that  :o
Of course it's begging to be tested on that actual model GPS...

They clearly have a flush of new advertising money from their new investor.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: frozenfrogz on May 09, 2017, 09:18:23 am

Quote from: EEVblog on May 09, 2017, 08:57:36 am

Wow, they spent some money on that  :o

Maybe they just ordered from Amazon, made the video and returned the unit within the 30 day return policy xD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on May 09, 2017, 09:33:25 am

Quote from: Brumby on May 09, 2017, 06:12:21 am

They've got a working chip.  Can't be all that hard to respin with a different output voltage.

Yep, it does seem to combine a lot of nice features into a single package.

Are they trying to sell the chip now? It looks like it on that page.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on May 09, 2017, 09:47:35 am

I tried to work out from the drawing who the manufacturer might be.

The first drawing labels it a "DC" package, which is a type designation used by Linear Technology, but they don't list a 2.0x1.5mm version so I don't think it's theirs (unless they've developed a custom package for this device as well as the die itself).

The second drawing refers to WDFN(XL08) and VDFN(YL08) variants, and I can't find any other reference to those package codes elsewhere.

Dave, you've got a powerful microscope now. Fancy having a go at de-capping one of these ICs and taking a peek?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on May 09, 2017, 10:09:51 am

Quote from: AndyC_772 on May 09, 2017, 09:47:35 am

I tried to work out from the drawing who the manufacturer might be.

The first drawing labels it a "DC" package, which is a type designation used by Linear Technology, but they don't list a 2.0x1.5mm version so I don't think it's theirs (unless they've developed a custom package for this device as well as the die itself).

I doubt it's one of the really big USA manufacturers. They aren't going to design/prototype a custom chip for less then several million $$$ (is "BTR004" the fourth revision?)

I'm leaning towards China.

Interestingly, the pinout diagram on their page is labelled "BTR002"  :popcorn:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=314277;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on May 09, 2017, 10:23:59 am

Yeah. Much effort for a bullshit product. What a waste.

Quote

Life Support Policy

BTR’s products are not authorized for use as critical components in life support devices or other medical systems.

Yeah. :)
Given the reliability of their end product contacting method, it should not be allowed at all for any kind of device.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on May 09, 2017, 10:35:28 am

Quote from: Brumby on May 09, 2017, 06:12:21 am

They've got a working chip.  Can't be all that hard to respin with a different output voltage.

It may not be hard as such, but you'd still most likely have to pay for a new tape-out and mask set (what's that for a low density analog chip... 100k$ at least?), and it's not guaranteed that a chip designed for a small voltage boost will work for more than doubling the output voltage without some extra design work and re-validation...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: deephaven on May 09, 2017, 12:07:44 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on May 09, 2017, 08:57:36 am

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on May 06, 2017, 07:29:22 pm

A new batch of videos from batteroo, really lame and non-scientific "test's"/reviews.
BUT the last video before these i linked to last time have not gotten payed views for once.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLbPVPno3BM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLbPVPno3BM)

Wow, they spent some money on that  :o
Of course it's begging to be tested on that actual model GPS...

They clearly have a flush of new advertising money from their new investor.

I have the model of GPS shown on the still picture of that video, but that isn't the model they used in ensuing video.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on May 09, 2017, 01:20:04 pm

Quote from: deephaven on May 09, 2017, 12:07:44 pm

I have the model of GPS shown on the still picture of that video, but that isn't the model they used in ensuing video.

You are right, this is the model they used in the video:

https://www.amazon.com/DeLorme-Earthmate-PN-60-Portable-Navigator/dp/B0031QNP8O/ (https://www.amazon.com/DeLorme-Earthmate-PN-60-Portable-Navigator/dp/B0031QNP8O/)

Couldn't find the model from the still image, and of course, no detailed information in the video description. Which one is it?

But they have some humor, I would love to see their 40 feet long model train setup as they write in the description :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on May 09, 2017, 02:03:59 pm

The one on the still image must be the one bellow:

(https://i.imgur.com/xXPxVaIs.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/xXPxVaI.jpg)

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on May 09, 2017, 02:53:25 pm

Quote from: firewalker on May 09, 2017, 02:03:59 pm

The one on the still image must be the one bellow:

(https://i.imgur.com/xXPxVaIs.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/xXPxVaI.jpg)

Alexander.

Nice, they really (badly) photoshopped away the labels above and below the display, you can see it in the video still image if you look carefully :-DD

Edit: for the record, because we know they read this thread, and you can change the still image of videos without re-uploading:

(http://i.imgur.com/dLXcLJV.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: NexusKoolaid on May 09, 2017, 04:07:50 pm

Quote from: firewalker on May 09, 2017, 02:03:59 pm

The one on the still image must be the one bellow:

(https://i.imgur.com/xXPxVaIs.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/xXPxVaI.jpg)

Alexander.

Maybe, or it could be the previous model (the GPS Map 62) - the cases of the two are nearly identical (aside from slight color variation).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on May 10, 2017, 04:57:36 am

It looks like the basic Gpsmap 64. The version without the compass and barometric sensor.
I have the previous one (62st, with the sensors) and I routinely get 15H on a set of Eneloops.
The version before that (I had the 60csx as well) was able to get 20H out of a set of eneloops.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on May 10, 2017, 09:19:31 pm

Whatever happened to the decapping?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on May 11, 2017, 07:45:19 am

According to the other thread, it was delivered on 6th of April, about a month has passed so maybe... just maybe we might get something? any shaker here with link to Zeptobars?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on May 11, 2017, 08:22:52 pm

Perhaps the boiling in acid is taking 8X longer than usual.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on May 12, 2017, 01:55:26 am

Quote from: AndyC_772 on May 09, 2017, 09:47:35 am

I tried to work out from the drawing who the manufacturer might be.

The first drawing labels it a "DC" package, which is a type designation used by Linear Technology, but they don't list a 2.0x1.5mm version so I don't think it's theirs (unless they've developed a custom package for this device as well as the die itself).

The second drawing refers to WDFN(XL08) and VDFN(YL08) variants, and I can't find any other reference to those package codes elsewhere.

Dave, you've got a powerful microscope now. Fancy having a go at de-capping one of these ICs and taking a peek?

The other clues on the page are far easier to spot, like the odd wording:

Quote

The BTR004 is a high efficiency, fixed interleaved frequency 1.4MHz, current mode PWM boost DC/DC converter which could operate from single-cell NiCd, NiMH or alkaline battery such as input voltage below 0.6V. The converter output voltage is adjusted from 1.5V to 1.32V from VIN at 1.5V to 0.80V.  No external Schottky diode is required and the converter can achieve efficiency of 93%.

The converter is based on a fixed frequency, current mode, pulse-width-modulation PWM controller that goes automatically into burst mode at light load which quiescent current is only 15uA in this mode of operation. When converter operates in discontinuous mode, the internal anti-ringing switch could reduce interference and radiated electromagnetic energy. The BTR004 is available in a space-saving 8-lead DFN package for portable application

Features
Synchronous Rectification: 93% Efficiency
Very Low Start-up Voltage at 0.6V
Automatically Switch to Burst Mode for Improving Efficiency at Light Load
Internal Anti-Ringing Switch across Inductor
Fixed Interleaved Frequency Operation at 1.4MHz with 2.8Mhz clock
Small 8-Pin DFN Package
RoHS Compliant

...
SW1,SW2 Switch input pin which connected to inductor

Google those phrases and the Batteroo page comes up, along with...

http://hawyang.com.tw/files/specification/fiti/BoostDC/FP6711%20DS%20rev1.0.pdf (http://hawyang.com.tw/files/specification/fiti/BoostDC/FP6711%20DS%20rev1.0.pdf)
http://www.skywilltek.com/en/WebEditor/UploadFile/2010426105029364.pdf (http://www.skywilltek.com/en/WebEditor/UploadFile/2010426105029364.pdf)
http://www.fitipower.com/applicationDetail.asp?lv=1&id=22&prodid=64 (http://www.fitipower.com/applicationDetail.asp?lv=1&id=22&prodid=64)
http://www.fitipower.com/en_US/file/image/Image/pdf/FP6711-1.4.pdf (http://www.fitipower.com/en_US/file/image/Image/pdf/FP6711-1.4.pdf)

Quote

The FP6711 is a high efficiency, fixed frequency 500KHz, current mode PWM boost DC/DC converter which could operate from single/dual-cell NiCd, NiMH or alkaline battery such as input voltage below 1V. The converter output voltage can be adjusted from 1.8V to a maximum of 4V by an external resistor divider. Besides the converter includes a 0.35? N-channel MOSFET switch and 0.45? P-channel synchronous rectifier. So no external Schottky diode is required and could get better efficiency near 94%.

The converter is based on a fixed frequency, current mode, pulse-width-modulation PWM controller that goes automatically into PFM mode at light load which quiescent current is only 25uA in this mode operation. The converter features a special function that the load is completely isolated from the battery during shutdown. Besides it also has auto-discharge function which could discharge the output capacitor immediately during shutdown.

When converter operation into discontinuous mode, the internal anti-ringing switch could reduce interference and radiated electromagnetic energy. The FP6711 is available in a space-saving 10-lead MSOP package for portable application.

Features
 Synchronous Rectification: 94% Efficiency
 Very Low Start-up Voltage at 0.85V
 Automatically Switch to PFM Mode for Improving Efficiency at Light Load
 Built-in True Shutdown: Isolation of Load from Battery during Shutdown
 Internal Anti-Ringing Switch across Inductor
 Low Battery Warning Display
 Fixed Frequency Operation at 500KHz
 Very Low Shutdown Current at 1uA
 Small 10-Pin MSOP Package
 RoHS Compliant
...
SW Switch input pin which connected to inductor

Bingo. Fitipower is could be the OEM.  8)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: sleemanj on May 12, 2017, 05:10:51 am

Quote from: amyk on May 12, 2017, 01:55:26 am

Bingo. Fitipower is the OEM.  8)

The first of those datasheets has a date of Feb 2007!  At least a 10 year old design if that's the case, although obviously either it's been repackaged into an 8 pin package for them specially or it's been updated to include 8 pin packages since those datasheets (or they just copy-pasted some copy from the FP6711 datasheet for their website but their IC isn't based on that at all, which I wouldn't be surprised about).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on May 12, 2017, 08:50:35 am

Quote from: sleemanj on May 12, 2017, 05:10:51 am

Quote from: amyk on May 12, 2017, 01:55:26 am

Bingo. Fitipower is the OEM.  8)

The first of those datasheets has a date of Feb 2007!  At least a 10 year old design if that's the case, although obviously either it's been repackaged into an 8 pin package for them specially or it's been updated to include 8 pin packages since those datasheets (or they just copy-pasted some copy from the FP6711 datasheet for their website but their IC isn't based on that at all, which I wouldn't be surprised about).

Well it's obviously a rather different chip... 0.6V minimum input and a much more complicated two-phase design.
It would seem odd if Fitipower were the designers of the BTR004... If you're Batteroo, would you pick an IC designer that noone has ever heard of, for your one shot at getting the custom IC that you need for your "world-changing invention"? And given that they had contacts at Exar, who would be more than capable of pulling off that kind of chip, it would be rather odd indeed.
But the similarity in language is a little odd (but could also be due to using the same translation system, or copy&paste). I suppose there's always the possibility that the contact at Exar said "yeah, sorry mate, can't do it on your budget... Let me ask around if anyone at a smaller outfit is desperate for a design win"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on May 12, 2017, 09:57:29 am

Quote from: janekm on May 12, 2017, 08:50:35 am

Well it's obviously a rather different chip... 0.6V minimum input and a much more complicated two-phase design.
It would seem odd if Fitipower were the designers of the BTR004... If you're Batteroo, would you pick an IC designer that noone has ever heard of, for your one shot at getting the custom IC that you need for your "world-changing invention"? And given that they had contacts at Exar, who would be more than capable of pulling off that kind of chip, it would be rather odd indeed.
But the similarity in language is a little odd (but could also be due to using the same translation system, or copy&paste). I suppose there's always the possibility that the contact at Exar said "yeah, sorry mate, can't do it on your budget... Let me ask around if anyone at a smaller outfit is desperate for a design win"

Or....
- Fitipower is owned by some relative of his?
- Fitipower is owned by some ex-colleague / ex-student?
- Fitipower is owned by some ex-Exar employee?
- They were the cheapest/only bidder?

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Koen on May 12, 2017, 10:38:11 am

Or this thread is back to "Assumptions : The Olympics". As when, pages ago, these "would totally never ever be produced ever", "aren't in mass production at all, it's a single prototype, believe me", "will never ship, it's too expensive" and later "will never be delivered to backers but only a select few shills".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: mikerj on May 12, 2017, 10:48:41 am

Quote from: janekm on May 12, 2017, 08:50:35 am

It would seem odd if Fitipower were the designers of the BTR004...

Seems entirely feasible.  Fitipower clearly have experience in very low voltage boost converters, and have an existing device that appears to be a good fit for the application (ignoring the fact that the entire concept is BS).  Perhaps the Bateroo tried the FP6711 and found it couldn't deliver enough current, so the whole "respin" thing was actually true?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on May 12, 2017, 10:56:58 am

Quote from: sleemanj on May 12, 2017, 05:10:51 am

or they just copy-pasted some copy from the FP6711 datasheet for their website but their IC isn't based on that at all, which I wouldn't be surprised about

Now that I look at the schematic more, it does seem a little suspicious.

- The package diagram (espeically the text below it) looks very LTC-ish (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22PLASTIC+DFN%22+%228-LEAD%22&hl=en&gbv=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch),  but it's odd that there is no pin 1 indicator nor the thermal pad common in these small DFNs.

- The inductor symbol is distinctively curly (does anyone recognise the software/library which has it? I think I've seen it before but not recently) in the rev 1.0 FP6711 datasheet (2007) and Batteroo's, but not in the later FP6711 datasheets.

- The fonts. "22uF" (an actual u, not a Mu unlike the inductors), "Pin 1", and "Vout" definitely look like they were added hastily afterwards. You can see the right side of the capacitors are cut off. "btr004" is also in the wrong font (serifs vs. sans for the original) and not even centered in the IC body.

- Compare the spacing of the "V" and "O2" vs "O1" on the right side. Their spacing doesn't look right.

- The lines extend into the IC body on SW2 and GRD1 (but not the other pins). The position of the SW2 label is also higher than SW1. GND doesn't line up with GRD1 and GRD2 either.

Why would Fitipower, if they did design the IC, take a schematic image from an existing, very old datasheet and edit it with an image editor?

I feel like we have been trolled by Batteroo :palm:

Attached image of the comparison in case they try to "fix" it. ::)

Edit: the "block diagram" is equally ridiculous. Look at those wire jumps, the gaps/overlaps, and the positions of VO2 and the ground pins. The error amp with no - input... did they just erase the feedback pin from the FP6711 :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on May 13, 2017, 02:25:07 am

Quote from: amyk on May 12, 2017, 10:56:58 am

Now that I look at the schematic more, it does seem a little suspicious.

- The package diagram (espeically the text below it) looks very LTC-ish (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22PLASTIC+DFN%22+%228-LEAD%22&hl=en&gbv=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch),  but it's odd that there is no pin 1 indicator nor the thermal pad common in these small DFNs.

- The inductor symbol is distinctively curly (does anyone recognise the software/library which has it? I think I've seen it before but not recently) in the rev 1.0 FP6711 datasheet (2007) and Batteroo's, but not in the later FP6711 datasheets.

- The fonts. "22uF" (an actual u, not a Mu unlike the inductors), "Pin 1", and "Vout" definitely look like they were added hastily afterwards. You can see the right side of the capacitors are cut off. "btr004" is also in the wrong font (serifs vs. sans for the original) and not even centered in the IC body.

- Compare the spacing of the "V" and "O2" vs "O1" on the right side. Their spacing doesn't look right.

- The lines extend into the IC body on SW2 and GRD1 (but not the other pins). The position of the SW2 label is also higher than SW1. GND doesn't line up with GRD1 and GRD2 either.

Why would Fitipower, if they did design the IC, take a schematic image from an existing, very old datasheet and edit it with an image editor?

You are over thinking this.

The IC Batteroo is using does seem to be a customised IC with the internal fixed voltage divider for the 1.5V output. If it is a custom IC, there is no need for any proper datasheet to be made. To have a block diagram for the Batteroo webpage, someone might take an old datasheet for a similar chip and edit it.

And so what if the block diagram shows two outputs from the driver blocks? That is completely fine. If you use a triangle, that is what is going to happen, and it is just a block diagram. As a block diagram, it is as informative as many other block diagrams I have seen in professionally produced datasheets.

The fact is they do have an IC, there is nothing in the LT range that comes close, and the block diagram and description do match the details we have worked out here. They are the facts. There are a few features of the Batteroo that do point to a genuine customised IC. The way they have the output voltage decreasing as the battery voltage decreases must be part of the design, and with the burst mode, they let the voltage sag much more then other commercial IC's that have burst mode allow. Doing this allows the Batteroo IC to have a signifigantly lower minimum current drain. This chip has been modified to take advantage of the fact that battery powered devices can take a range of input voltages without a problem.

A company like Fitipower may well be very happy to get their costs of taking an old design and pushing the technology to the faster speeds that fabs can now provide paid for by Batteroo. They may be happy if they break even on the deal as it would be a deal with no negatives. If Batteroo are successful, they could be selling billions of these ICs. If Batteroo fail, they have had another company pay for designing a very impressive new generation of switching IC that they can easily modify for other customers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on May 13, 2017, 06:09:14 am

Quote

It would seem odd if Fitipower were the designers of the BTR004... If you're Batteroo, would you pick an IC designer that noone has ever heard of, for your one shot at getting the custom IC that you need for your "world-changing invention"?

Would you put one over that Battero will not just do exactly that?
After all if their goal was really getting a proper custom IC for their 'world-changing invention' instead of the scamming merry-go-round that they took us and their investors on, they would've heed Dave's advice way back when... that it's just not feasible?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ebastler on May 13, 2017, 06:44:55 am

Quote from: Luminax on May 13, 2017, 06:09:14 am

Quote

It would seem odd if Fitipower were the designers of the BTR004... If you're Batteroo, would you pick an IC designer that noone has ever heard of, for your one shot at getting the custom IC that you need for your "world-changing invention"?

Would you put one over that Battero will not just do exactly that?
After all if their goal was really getting a proper custom IC for their 'world-changing invention' instead of the scamming merry-go-round that they took us and their investors on, they would've heed Dave's advice way back when... that it's just not feasible?

I don't understand this current wave of conspiracy theories. Yes, obviously Batteroo is marketing their product with wildly inflated claims, and is probably using dishonest marketing methods like bought votes and "customer" statements. There are many good reasons to distrust them.

But the battery sleeves are working boost converters, right? They are apparently designed around a custom IC which is made by an OEM who has a track record in boost converter ICs. Where's the problem here? Again, the claimed benefits are wildly inflated, but why would the miniaturized boost converter itself be "not feasible"?

Time to move on and let Batteroo fade away in silence, I'd say...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on May 13, 2017, 07:59:07 am

Quote from: amspire on May 13, 2017, 02:25:07 am

...
If it is a custom IC, there is no need for any proper datasheet to be made.

Uhhh.... Yeah, there is, if they're trying to make it sound all shiny and impressive so they can pimp out the chip itself, all over the market, (whatever that might be :palm:...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on May 13, 2017, 08:05:30 am

Quote from: amspire on May 13, 2017, 02:25:07 am

The fact is they do have an IC, there is nothing in the LT range that comes close, and the block diagram and description do match the details we have worked out here.

Yeah, and there is a damn good reason for that!

If this "Batteroo" chip was actually even somewhat useful in any kind of decent range of applications for real products, it would have already been one of the stalwarts of all the major brands of converter ICs for many, many years.

:palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on May 13, 2017, 08:23:42 am

Quote from: drussell on May 13, 2017, 08:05:30 am

Quote from: amspire on May 13, 2017, 02:25:07 am

The fact is they do have an IC, there is nothing in the LT range that comes close, and the block diagram and description do match the details we have worked out here.

Yeah, and there is a damn good reason for that!

If this "Batteroo" chip was actually even somewhat useful in any kind of decent range of applications for real products, it would have already been one of the stalwarts of all the major brands of converter ICs for many, many years.

:palm:

It is actually a fairly impressive chip. It appears outperforms most of the similar chips on the market. The efficiency is better then most of them. The current capacity is better then most. Many do not have the burst mode enabled, and most of the competitors have a much higher idle current. I wish there were chips with this combination of technologies that were available on the market.

The problem with Batteroo has always been the outlandish claims. The Batteroo can be useful in a very small number of situations.

Are they pimping the chip out to the market? (I haven't been following).

It would be great to have a version of this same chip with a higher output voltage. Something that could run down to 0.6v and could step it up to 3.3v or 5V at over 200mA, and yet only consume 15uA when there is no load. That would allow the battery to be permanently connected to the converter, and it would not need to be switched off. The 5V circuit will have its 5V continuously, so it can have conventional soft power ON.OFF switching. It would not be technical difficult (unless the chip is designed for under 3.3V maximum - which it might be to maximize efficiency). If Batteroo, or the company who designed this chip released a higher output voltage version, it would probably have better specs then anything else on the market. We have no idea about issues such as reliability.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on May 13, 2017, 09:11:58 am

If the 15µA quiescent current figure is right, that's 131 mAh per year.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on May 13, 2017, 09:53:56 am

Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on May 13, 2017, 09:11:58 am

If the 15µA quiescent current figure is right, that's 131 mAh per year.

Which is excellent if you want to power a circuit with a single 2200mAh NiMH battery. Lithium Ion batteries are great, but AA and AAA batteries are better for devices that you want to use for the next 30 years. A chip that has 15uA idle current and that has over 90% efficiency from sub-milliamps to 500mA battery current would make it easy to make devices running of a single AA battery.

A chip that is comparable is the LTC3528 but with a single battery input it is around 80% efficiency, needs a 4.7uH inductor rather then a 2.2uH inductor (2.2 uH is a sweet spot currently for inductor size vs current capability) and has a lower current capability. It also costs about $3 in quantity so it would seem that the Batteroo chip is much cheaper.  When you are talking about a chip that has under half the losses, double the current and under half the price of the best that Linear Technology can do, you are talking about an impressive effort by the Batteroo chip design company.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on May 13, 2017, 10:41:05 am

That does indeed seem an impressive little IC.

But how many of the professional design EEs on here have ever thought "I really need a DC-DC converter that will output between 1.35v - 1.5v with an input down to 0.6v for this project"
I would put my money on zero.

What a waste of effort.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on May 13, 2017, 10:46:59 am

Quote from: amspire on May 13, 2017, 02:25:07 am

The fact is they do have an IC, there is nothing in the LT range that comes close,

I'm guessing LT simply haven't made any effort in that voltage range due to lack of demand.

If they can tweak this to output 3.3V or something like that then they might have a product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on May 13, 2017, 11:01:44 am

The problems of this "invention" IMO are:

1) That it cuts your power supply from 100% straight to 0 without notice.
2) That you no longer can know how much juice there's left in your batteries.
3) For not much gain in total mAh (minus those 131mAh per year) as you can see in the discharge curve of a batt.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on May 13, 2017, 11:26:14 am

Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on May 13, 2017, 11:01:44 am

The problems of this "invention" IMO are:

1) That it cuts your power supply from 100% straight to 0 without notice.
2) That you no longer can know how much juice there's left in your batteries.

Not true. The output actually goes down from 1.5V to 1.3V. If you're designing this into a product then you can have a battery indicator.

Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on May 13, 2017, 11:01:44 am

3) For not much gain in total mAh (minus those 131mAh per year) as you can see in the discharge curve of a batt.

Even so, if you can get this efficiency with a single AA battery and a higher output voltage then you have a competitive chip.

The Batteroo battery clips are useless, yes.

The Batteroo chip? An interesting design but currently crippled due to the constraints of their useless product.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: PA0PBZ on May 13, 2017, 11:47:27 am

Quote from: Fungus on May 13, 2017, 11:26:14 am

The output actually goes down from 1.5V to 1.3V. If you're designing this into a product then you can have a battery indicator.

If you build this into a product you can measure the input, so...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on May 13, 2017, 02:27:05 pm

Quote from: Fungus on May 13, 2017, 10:46:59 am

I'm guessing LT simply haven't made any effort in that voltage range due to lack of demand.

If there was a valid application for this Batteroo chip it would already have existed. The closest thing with presumed valid application are fixed 1.8v output parts like the chips Batteriser used in their patent applications.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on May 13, 2017, 05:01:42 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on May 13, 2017, 02:27:05 pm

Quote from: Fungus on May 13, 2017, 10:46:59 am

I'm guessing LT simply haven't made any effort in that voltage range due to lack of demand.

If there was a valid application for this Batteroo chip it would already have existed. The closest thing with presumed valid application are fixed 1.8v output parts like the chips Batteriser used in their patent applications.

Removing the Batteroo's optimisation for its battery cell boosting role from this chip would not be hard, and then you end up with a chip that outperforms anything TI, LT, AD, ST, Microchip and Maxim can currently make. To say that a company like LT doesn't make their chips better because people like spending over 3 times the money for a lower efficiency and lower capacity chip that needs a bigger and more expensive inductor does not even begin to make sense.

It would seem that these big companies do not make a chip that technology-wise is as good as the Batteroo is probably - they can't right now. Whoever designed the chip is very talented and skilled.

Batteroo's chip decreases the output as the battery voltage decreases - that will just be the wiring if the feedback resistors. The Batteroo chip lets the output voltage drop by 100 to 200mV in burst mode - that will be resistors setting the hysteresis of a comparitor. The Batteroo chip has two parallel supplies - it would be dead easy to make a lower power chip that only has one supply. Whatever company owns the design of this chip is sitting on something that is valuable and is most definitely very useful.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on May 13, 2017, 05:40:31 pm

Quote from: amspire on May 13, 2017, 05:01:42 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on May 13, 2017, 02:27:05 pm

Quote from: Fungus on May 13, 2017, 10:46:59 am

I'm guessing LT simply haven't made any effort in that voltage range due to lack of demand.

If there was a valid application for this Batteroo chip it would already have existed. The closest thing with presumed valid application are fixed 1.8v output parts like the chips Batteriser used in their patent applications.

Removing the Batteroo's optimisation for its battery cell boosting role from this chip would not be hard, and then you end up with a chip that outperforms anything TI, LT, AD, ST, Microchip and Maxim can currently make. To say that a company like LT doesn't make their chips better because people like spending over 3 times the money for a lower efficiency and lower capacity chip that needs a bigger and more expensive inductor does not even begin to make sense.

The high efficency is probably because of the agressive burst mode:
Unlike most other converters, the Batteriser stepup seems to run at a fixed duty cycle (or maybe fixed peak current) regardless of the load current. When the target voltage is reached, it shuts down until a much lower threshold. This results in a rather large output voltage ripple. Most other manufacturers instead try to keep the the ripple in PFM/burst mode to an acceptable limit.
The ic may have a high efficency, but 1.5V output voltage with a rather large, load dependend ripple makes ist useless for most applications using the voltage for some analogue circuits.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on May 13, 2017, 06:08:35 pm

Quote from: bktemp on May 13, 2017, 05:40:31 pm

The high efficency is probably because of the agressive burst mode:
Unlike most other converters, the Batteriser stepup seems to run at a fixed duty cycle (or maybe fixed peak current) regardless of the load current. When the target voltage is reached, it shuts down until a much lower threshold. This results in a rather large output voltage ripple. Most other manufacturers instead try to keep the the ripple in PFM/burst mode to an acceptable limit.
The ic may have a high efficency, but 1.5V output voltage with a rather large, load dependend ripple makes ist useless for most applications using the voltage for some analogue circuits.

That would be a good topic for another EEVblog vidjeo.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on May 13, 2017, 07:38:04 pm

Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on May 13, 2017, 06:08:35 pm

Quote from: bktemp on May 13, 2017, 05:40:31 pm

The high efficency is probably because of the agressive burst mode:
Unlike most other converters, the Batteriser stepup seems to run at a fixed duty cycle (or maybe fixed peak current) regardless of the load current. When the target voltage is reached, it shuts down until a much lower threshold. This results in a rather large output voltage ripple. Most other manufacturers instead try to keep the the ripple in PFM/burst mode to an acceptable limit.
The ic may have a high efficency, but 1.5V output voltage with a rather large, load dependend ripple makes ist useless for most applications using the voltage for some analogue circuits.

That would be a good topic for another EEVblog vidjeo.

Yep. There might be another Batteroo video after all....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on May 13, 2017, 11:51:21 pm

Quote from: bktemp on May 13, 2017, 05:40:31 pm

Quote from: amspire on May 13, 2017, 05:01:42 pm

Quote from: Hensingler on May 13, 2017, 02:27:05 pm

Quote from: Fungus on May 13, 2017, 10:46:59 am

I'm guessing LT simply haven't made any effort in that voltage range due to lack of demand.

If there was a valid application for this Batteroo chip it would already have existed. The closest thing with presumed valid application are fixed 1.8v output parts like the chips Batteriser used in their patent applications.

Removing the Batteroo's optimisation for its battery cell boosting role from this chip would not be hard, and then you end up with a chip that outperforms anything TI, LT, AD, ST, Microchip and Maxim can currently make. To say that a company like LT doesn't make their chips better because people like spending over 3 times the money for a lower efficiency and lower capacity chip that needs a bigger and more expensive inductor does not even begin to make sense.

The high efficency is probably because of the agressive burst mode:
Unlike most other converters, the Batteriser stepup seems to run at a fixed duty cycle (or maybe fixed peak current) regardless of the load current. When the target voltage is reached, it shuts down until a much lower threshold. This results in a rather large output voltage ripple. Most other manufacturers instead try to keep the the ripple in PFM/burst mode to an acceptable limit.
The ic may have a high efficency, but 1.5V output voltage with a rather large, load dependend ripple makes ist useless for most applications using the voltage for some analogue circuits.

Batteroo claim the BTR004 is a PWM device and I would be amazed if this were not the case. Trouble is, the PWM mode would only work between 100% load and about 10% load and we do not know what 10% load is because I don't believe anyone has tried to test for a 100% load at various battery voltages.

What the chip does seem to have is far superior switching devices to all the other big companies. I have no idea if they use an internal boost converter to provide extra bias voltage for a gate drive, whether they have mosfets that turn fully on at 0.6V, or whether they are using super beta transistors for switching, but whatever they are doing, they seem to get better efficiencies at low battery voltages then the competitors in spite of running at a fast 1.4MHz clock rate.

After some initial characterizing of this device, everyone got bored and stopped testing the chip. A pity as the details could be quite interesting.

The aggressive burst mode is because they can with devices designed for batteries, and the fact that there is a cost to each burst in that when the burst ceases, they switch a resistor across the battery for a period to dampen ringing. This is pure resistive loss, so they will have done everything they can to maximize the burst period.

Do other manufacturer switch burst mode have this resistor? I haven't looked, but the Batteroo may have a particular problem in that the clip forms a nice rf loop with the battery.

Some of the things I do not recall being tested in this forum include:

• Max output current vs battery voltage
• Burst mode vs voltage - is there a voltage at which burst mode ceases?
• Temperature vs load (using the reverse substrate diode as a temperature sensor).
  
• Is the chip thermally protected?
• Reverse substrate diode temperature versus current (since when a batteroo turns off in a multi battery device, current passes through the reverse substrate diode and it is near impossible to thermally protect it)
• Can it switch on under full load? (The way the Batteroo is used, the device usually switches on at no load)
  
• What is the minumum startup voltage?
• Efficiency vs battery voltage for a full sweep of load current from microamps to 100% load. (Would be a big task)
• Does the device latch up if battery voltage is applied as the substrate diode is conducting in a reverse direction?
• Switching resistance (by measuring the coil to -ve voltage when the coil switch is on) at different batt. voltages.
• In burst mode, does the pulse width vary with battery voltage?
• For the AA cell (that has 2 inductors), is it running as a 2 phase converter?
• RF radiation

On the Batteroo technology page, they claim the Batteroo can switch on at 0.6V I think, but I assume they mean that as long as the device is on, burst mode can still work fine from 0.6V. If it did actually turn on at 0.6V, that would be impressive.

Doing all these tests would be a massive job, so I cannot blame anyone for not bothering. Batteroo has always gone out of its way to avoid specifications. The point is that technically, the Batteroo is a pretty decent effort. That means that there was some excellent engineering work done. Doesn't stop the final product from being mostly useless and unnecessary.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: forrestc on May 14, 2017, 01:40:34 am

Quote from: amspire on May 13, 2017, 08:23:42 am

It would be great to have a version of this same chip with a higher output voltage. Something that could run down to 0.6v and could step it up to 3.3v or 5V at over 200mA, and yet only consume 15uA when there is no load. That would allow the battery to be permanently connected to the converter, and it would not need to be switched off. The 5V circuit will have its 5V continuously, so it can have conventional soft power ON.OFF switching. It would not be technical difficult (unless the chip is designed for under 3.3V maximum - which it might be to maximize efficiency). If Batteroo, or the company who designed this chip released a higher output voltage version, it would probably have better specs then anything else on the market. We have no idea about issues such as reliability.

The part you're looking for is a MCP1640.   I agree with many who say that the best kept secret of the Microchip  (of PIC processor fame) is the strength of their analog product line.

The MCP1640 has 19uA Quiescent current, operating voltage down to 0.65V, 1000mA current.  Not quite as good but close.  There's also a cheaper 175mA version...

Edit:  Looks like the MCP1640 is specced at 800mA typical 'input current limit'.  Which means that at as an example 1.2V in, you'll only get 100mA at 3.3V. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on May 14, 2017, 03:45:14 am

Quote from: forrestc on May 14, 2017, 01:40:34 am

The part you're looking for is a MCP1640.   I agree with many who say that the best kept secret of the Microchip  (of PIC processor fame) is the strength of their analog product line.

The MCP1640 has 19uA Quiescent current, operating voltage down to 0.65V, 1000mA current.  Not quite as good but close.  There's also a cheaper 175mA version...

Edit:  Looks like the MCP1640 is specced at 800mA typical 'input current limit'.  Which means that at as an example 1.2V in, you'll only get 100mA at 3.3V.

I will get some to try them. It is 500KHz and with a single NiMH, it is pushing it at 100mA 5V output, but that is fine for Arduino-type projects. About 60c price. Idling, it will use about 25% of a NiMH battery in two years - that is about as good as I really need. Efficiency is 50% to about 83%.

If you only need about 20mA output (from a 0.9V flat AA cell) or up to 200mA with two AA cells, chips like the AIT 7350 and the Seiko S-8354 have been around for over a decade and work very well. They get better efficiency them the Microchip part. I think this $1 board has either the AIT of Seiko chip, but I couldn't work out the SMD code (E5 OD). Idle current is pretty good.

This board I believe has an AIT type IC. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DC-DC-Adjustable-Boost-Converter-Power-Module-Step-up-Modules-500mA-Green-/401156413129 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DC-DC-Adjustable-Boost-Converter-Power-Module-Step-up-Modules-500mA-Green-/401156413129)

Looks like there is a shortage of brand new designs - perhaps when it comes to switching converters, designers like the tried and true chips they have been using for years.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on May 14, 2017, 03:57:20 am

To me it is no surprise that a chip such as the BTR004 has not been done before.

The requirements have dictated a narrower area of operation than how a general purpose chip would have been designed - and I feel these conditions allowed for improvements in other areas, such as efficiency.

Herein lies the fundamental reason why no such chip had been produced before.  Aside from some obscure
situation, the application could only ever be for a single cell booster, which puts it straight into the 'let's suck as much as we can from a battery" arena.  Some quick assessment of batteries and battery operated devices would have shown this really didn't make a lot of sense.  Sure, the converter could do the job, but was it a job worth doing?

It took Batteroo and crowd funding to take a shot at it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on May 14, 2017, 04:15:08 am

Quote from: Brumby on May 14, 2017, 03:57:20 am

To me it is no surprise that a chip such as the BTR004 has not been done before.

The requirements have dictated a narrower area of operation than how a general purpose chip would have been designed - and I feel these conditions allowed for improvements in other areas, such as efficiency.

Herein lies the fundamental reason why no such chip had been produced before.  Aside from some obscure
situation, the application could only ever be for a single cell booster, which puts it straight into the 'let's suck as much as we can from a battery" arena.  Some quick assessment of batteries and battery operated devices would have shown this really didn't make a lot of sense.  Sure, the converter could do the job, but was it a job worth doing?

It took Batteroo and crowd funding to take a shot at it.

Perhaps (back in speculation-land, sorry, it's just too much fun to speculate  :P), this is how FitiPower got the job.

Batteroo:
Can you make us a chip that can draw 2A from a dead battery?
LT: Eh... You do realise that the internal resistance of the battery will too high to draw 2A once the battery has been discharged that much, right? Also it'll cost $300k
Exar: Eh... You do realise that the internal resistance of the battery will too high to draw 2A once the battery has been discharged that much, right? Also it'll cost $200k
FitiPower: We can make you chip that draws 2A from low impedance power supply at 0.6V. It will cost $100k and will be done in 1 month.
Batteroo: FitiPower, you got the job!

(1 month later)
Batteroo: FitiPower, where's our chip, we promised everyone we will deliver the Batteriser next week?
FitiPower: We have taped out in one month as promised, prototypes will be back from the fab in 3 months, mass production in 6 months

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on May 14, 2017, 03:25:26 pm

Quote from: amspire on May 13, 2017, 02:25:07 am

The IC Batteroo is using does seem to be a customised IC with the internal fixed voltage divider for the 1.5V output. If it is a custom IC, there is no need for any proper datasheet to be made. To have a block diagram for the Batteroo webpage, someone might take an old datasheet for a similar chip and edit it.

And so what if the block diagram shows two outputs from the driver blocks? That is completely fine. If you use a triangle, that is what is going to happen, and it is just a block diagram. As a block diagram, it is as informative as many other block diagrams I have seen in professionally produced datasheets.

Look carefully. What I'm saying is that it seems someone took the FP6711 revision 1.0 datasheet (which Fitipower themselves don't even have on their website anymore) and used an image editor on it, badly. The wire jumps (not there in the original block diagram) are assymetrical. Lines don't butt correctly. The output of the Error Amp, which is missing an input, is the most ridiculous example of this. If it was based on the FP6711, wouldn't Fitipower or Batteroo have access to the actual "source" document the datasheet was created with, and the actual schematic files, etc.? If it wasn't, surely they'd have something better they could use, even if it's an internal document they might have to redact parts of? It would take far less time and look much more reasonable to use a schematic editor (does anyone on their team even know how to use one...? :o) to draw the BTR004 schematic consisting of 5 parts, than try to edit an existing image of a schematic.

I also just noticed the block diagram has an oddly-coloured 1-pixel line on the left and bottom, and what appears to be a band/gradient around the borders. That's... a screenshot. Because Fitipower's PDFs have that trivial-to-circumvent "do not copy" DRM bit set. |O

I don't doubt that they have a working boost IC. I am just completely puzzled by how they're doing it. Maybe I should ask Fitipower...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Someone on May 15, 2017, 07:43:23 am

Quote from: amspire on May 13, 2017, 11:51:21 pm

Some of the things I do not recall being tested in this forum include:

• Max output current vs battery voltage
• Burst mode vs voltage - is there a voltage at which burst mode ceases?
• Temperature vs load (using the reverse substrate diode as a temperature sensor).
  
• Is the chip thermally protected?
• Reverse substrate diode temperature versus current (since when a batteroo turns off in a multi battery device, current passes through the reverse substrate diode and it is near impossible to thermally protect it)
• Can it switch on under full load? (The way the Batteroo is used, the device usually switches on at no load)
  
• What is the minumum startup voltage?
• Efficiency vs battery voltage for a full sweep of load current from microamps to 100% load. (Would be a big task)
• Does the device latch up if battery voltage is applied as the substrate diode is conducting in a reverse direction?
• Switching resistance (by measuring the coil to -ve voltage when the coil switch is on) at different batt. voltages.
• In burst mode, does the pulse width vary with battery voltage?
• For the AA cell (that has 2 inductors), is it running as a 2 phase converter?
• RF radiation

On the Batteroo technology page, they claim the Batteroo can switch on at 0.6V I think, but I assume they mean that as long as the device is on, burst mode can still work fine from 0.6V. If it did actually turn on at 0.6V, that would be impressive.

Doing all these tests would be a massive job, so I cannot blame anyone for not bothering.

Most of it is pretty easy when you have the right tools, for instance:

Quote from: amspire on May 13, 2017, 11:51:21 pm

Efficiency vs battery voltage for a full sweep of load current from microamps to 100% load. (Would be a big task)

With a multi channel SMU this is entirely automated and then collects a lot of other data (including some of those on your list) when you can interpret it well  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on May 15, 2017, 08:07:24 am

Quote from: forrestc on May 14, 2017, 01:40:34 am

The MCP1640 has 19uA Quiescent current, operating voltage down to 0.65V, 1000mA current.

You have fallen in the common trap: Never stop reading at the first page of a datasheet.
If you look a the footnotes of the specs it tells you the actual truth:
"IQ is measured from VOUT; VIN quiescent current will vary with boost ratio. VIN quiescent current can be estimated by: (IQPFM * (VOUT/VIN)), (IQPWM * (VOUT/VIN))."

So for 5V out and 1V in, Iq drawn from the battery is around 0.1mA! That is much higher, but still ok for many applications.
MCP1640 is a great ic because it is cheap and works well. I have used it in many projects. Typically I use it as a soft power switch: The on/off button pulls the enable pin high for a short time before the microcontroller takes over. This reduces the current when powered down to around 1uA.
If I need a low power microcontroller powered on permanently, I prefer a 3V source like a CR2032 or 2x AAA batteries without any voltage regulator at all.

Some measurements on the Batteriser have been done in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/)
Based on those measurements and observed waveforms it doesn't look like PWM mode at all to me. Instead the converter seems to keep operating in burst/PFM mode over the full load range.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on May 15, 2017, 10:17:00 am

Quote from: bktemp on May 15, 2017, 08:07:24 am

Quote from: forrestc on May 14, 2017, 01:40:34 am

The MCP1640 has 19uA Quiescent current, operating voltage down to 0.65V, 1000mA current.

You have fallen in the common trap: Never stop reading at the first page of a datasheet.
If you look a the footnotes of the specs it tells you the actual truth:
"IQ is measured from VOUT; VIN quiescent current will vary with boost ratio. VIN quiescent current can be estimated by: (IQPFM * (VOUT/VIN)), (IQPWM * (VOUT/VIN))."

So for 5V out and 1V in, Iq drawn from the battery is around 0.1mA! That is much higher, but still ok for many applications.

If you look at fig 2.1 in the datasheet, it shows that with 1.2V in, 5V out, the quiescent current at 20 degC is just over 20uA. I am hoping it is right. I have ordered some to try. 0.1mA would be pretty pathetic. I did look at Note 3 and it doesn't seem to make much sense. I guess I will find out when I test it.

Quote

MCP1640 is a great ic because it is cheap and works well. I have used it in many projects. Typically I use it as a soft power switch: The on/off button pulls the enable pin high for a short time before the microcontroller takes over. This reduces the current when powered down to around 1uA.
If I need a low power microcontroller powered on permanently, I prefer a 3V source like a CR2032 or 2x AAA batteries without any voltage regulator at all.

The main place I want to use the regulators is making small pieces of test gear. From experience, you can keep using gear like this for 20 to 40 years, and that is why I don't want Lithium. Also AA/AAA batteries means if the batteries go flat, you do not have to wait for batteries to recharge. Since devices like this are often used infrequently and often only for short periods, I like the idea of running off one AA battery.

Quote

Some measurements on the Batteriser have been done in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/)
Based on those measurements and observed waveforms it doesn't look like PWM mode at all to me. Instead the converter seems to keep operating in burst/PFM mode over the full load range.

If you look at this post from that thread, you will see the sawtooth wave from the burst mode at 100mA. At 500mA, there is no sawtooth. That means at 500mA, it has to be PWM mode.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1101667/#msg1101667 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1101667/#msg1101667)

The 1 A waveform just looks crap. Not sure if this is the AAA battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on May 15, 2017, 10:41:46 am

Quote from: amspire on May 15, 2017, 10:17:00 am

Quote from: bktemp on May 15, 2017, 08:07:24 am

Quote from: forrestc on May 14, 2017, 01:40:34 am

The MCP1640 has 19uA Quiescent current, operating voltage down to 0.65V, 1000mA current.

You have fallen in the common trap: Never stop reading at the first page of a datasheet.
If you look a the footnotes of the specs it tells you the actual truth:
"IQ is measured from VOUT; VIN quiescent current will vary with boost ratio. VIN quiescent current can be estimated by: (IQPFM * (VOUT/VIN)), (IQPWM * (VOUT/VIN))."

So for 5V out and 1V in, Iq drawn from the battery is around 0.1mA! That is much higher, but still ok for many applications.

If you look at fig 2.1 in the datasheet, it shows that with 1.2V in, 5V out, the quiescent current at 20 degC is just over 20uA. I am hoping it is right. I have ordered some to try. 0.1mA would be pretty pathetic. I did look at Note 3 and it doesn't seem to make much sense. I guess I will find out when I test it.

Look at the caption below fig 2-1: "FIGURE 2-1: VOUT IQ vs. Ambient Temperature in PFM Mode."
Yes, the marketing departmant achieved their goal: They fooled you to think the ic is much better than it actually is.
Somewhere in the datasheet there is a description of the internal operating mode:
The ic starts up using a free running clock controlling the switching transistor. Once the output voltage is high enough, it switches over to normal operation mode, powering all of the internal functions from the output voltage. Therfore all internal supply currents are sourced from the output voltage. Once the ic is running, the input voltage can go much lower than at startup (0.35V if the output current demand is low).

I did a quick measurement using a MCP1640 and a MCP1640C (both PFM mode) with a 680k/392k voltage divider generating slightly over 3.3V and no output load.
The power consumption is fairly constant around 100uW over the full input voltage range.
This gives an equivalent total current consumption including all losses at Vout of 100uW/3.35V=30uA.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=315889;image)

Quote

Quote

Some measurements on the Batteriser have been done in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/)
Based on those measurements and observed waveforms it doesn't look like PWM mode at all to me. Instead the converter seems to keep operating in burst/PFM mode over the full load range.

If you look at this post from that thread, you will see the sawtooth wave from the burst mode at 100mA. At 500mA, there is no sawtooth. That means at 500mA, it has to be PWM mode.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1101667/#msg1101667 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1101667/#msg1101667)

The 1 A waveform just looks crap. Not sure if this is the AAA battery.

It is hard to say if it is really in PWM mode. If you look at the cursor marking the zero load output voltage (at that level the boost converter turns off in burst mode), at 500mA and 1000mA this voltage level is never reached. Maybe the ic operates at full duty cycle barely reaching the nominal 1.27V. At 1000mA it does not reach the target voltage at all.
The AAA batteriser uses only a single step up while the AA batteriser uses both channels in an interleaved mode.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on May 15, 2017, 11:43:27 am

Quote from: bktemp on May 15, 2017, 10:41:46 am

Look at the caption below fig 2-1: "FIGURE 2-1: VOUT IQ vs. Ambient Temperature in PFM Mode."
Yes, the marketing departmant achieved their goal: They fooled you to think the ic is much better than it actually is.
Somewhere in the datasheet there is a description of the internal operating mode:
The ic starts up using a free running clock controlling the switching transistor. Once the output voltage is high enough, it switches over to normal operation mode, powering all of the internal functions from the output voltage. Therfore all internal supply currents are sourced from the output voltage. Once the ic is running, the input voltage can go much lower than at startup (0.35V if the output current demand is low).

Ah! you are right. The only figure you need to know is the input quiescent, but they give a graph of the quiescent current drawn from the output if you apply a voltage to the output greater then the regulated voltage.

They got me!  :palm:

That does make the PFM mode of this chip pretty bad.

At least it does have a chip enable, and it does (I hope) reduce the quiescent current down to about 1uA.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: forrestc on May 15, 2017, 11:48:08 am

Quote from: bktemp on May 15, 2017, 08:07:24 am

Quote from: forrestc on May 14, 2017, 01:40:34 am

The MCP1640 has 19uA Quiescent current, operating voltage down to 0.65V, 1000mA current.

You have fallen in the common trap: Never stop reading at the first page of a datasheet.

Yeah, I posted, and about 5 minutes later saw what I had done. 

I use the MCP1640 in various applications where the iQ when on isn't that important - usually it's shut down when idle which has a very low current.   I'm also typically stepping up from a pair of cells (2.4V) to 3.3V so the efficiency is better.   I went and re-glanced at it and fell for the marketing drivel since I know how good it is in my applications.   Still, a very decent part for single-cell and 2-NiMH applications.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Luminax on May 16, 2017, 08:01:09 am

Quote from: ebastler on May 13, 2017, 06:44:55 am

Quote from: Luminax on May 13, 2017, 06:09:14 am

Quote

It would seem odd if Fitipower were the designers of the BTR004... If you're Batteroo, would you pick an IC designer that noone has ever heard of, for your one shot at getting the custom IC that you need for your "world-changing invention"?

Would you put one over that Battero will not just do exactly that?
After all if their goal was really getting a proper custom IC for their 'world-changing invention' instead of the scamming merry-go-round that they took us and their investors on, they would've heed Dave's advice way back when... that it's just not feasible?

I don't understand this current wave of conspiracy theories. Yes, obviously Batteroo is marketing their product with wildly inflated claims, and is probably using dishonest marketing methods like bought votes and "customer" statements. There are many good reasons to distrust them.

But the battery sleeves are working boost converters, right? They are apparently designed around a custom IC which is made by an OEM who has a track record in boost converter ICs. Where's the problem here? Again, the claimed benefits are wildly inflated, but why would the miniaturized boost converter itself be "not feasible"?

Time to move on and let Batteroo fade away in silence, I'd say...

I guess I either have misworded my reply, or you have misunderstood it, either way I would like to make a few of my points clear :

1) Nobody who have followed this thread from the start has ever doubted, even in the slightest, that the product will work as a boost converter
2) The 'not feasible' in my statement above refers to batteroo as a whole that, while the idea of making that small of a boost converter is probably good and novel, is not really practical due to space restriction, most devices already have their own boost converter, et cetera, et cetera. Hence the feasibility here refers to batteroo as a whole.
3) I would like to not be lumped with conspiracy theorist, kthx. I'm sure everybody by know realized that they ARE scamming, and I dutifully challenge anyone not thinking so.
4) If the conspiracy is concerning Fitipower, what I'm trying to say is that, it's not below the Batteroo corps to utilize a no-name IC company if it achieves their goal, mainly try to spend as little and get as much money in as possible.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on June 14, 2017, 12:14:48 am

Quote from: StillTrying on March 14, 2017, 01:14:27 am

Quote from: StillTrying on February 12, 2017, 03:18:12 am

About a month ago my LCD clock's display became noticeably faint, and a day later it was completely blank!

This clock is still going strong with full LCD contrast after another month on that one temporary charge!

Clock is still going strong with plenty of contrast after 4 5 months on that one re-charge!

Edit: If anyone can't work out the context, then just click on the live links above the quotes to see the previous posts.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on June 14, 2017, 02:04:23 pm

Quote from: StillTrying on June 14, 2017, 12:14:48 am

Quote from: StillTrying on March 14, 2017, 01:14:27 am

Quote from: StillTrying on February 12, 2017, 03:18:12 am

About a month ago my LCD clock's display became noticeably faint, and a day later it was completely blank!

This clock is still going strong with full LCD contrast after another month on that one temporary charge!

Clock is still going strong with plenty of contrast after 4 months on that one re-charge!

In an 8000+ message topic it might be helpful to give a bit more context if you want people to know what you're talking about.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on June 18, 2017, 10:05:04 pm

my clock is also going strong :)
it oscillates at 23,768 kHz with a strong 170mV amplitude.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on June 18, 2017, 10:23:19 pm

Quote from: f4eru on June 18, 2017, 10:05:04 pm

23,768 kHz

It won't be keeping time very well...  :o

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on June 22, 2017, 03:19:43 pm

Some time since i checked in, and also since i checked the indiegogo page, a extra few unhappy customers to the list, and still a lot complaining about not getting their batteriser's

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on June 23, 2017, 02:24:28 am

.... and none of this is any surprise.

I do like the guy who says "even know the things suck, i still have a right to get my suck cause I paid."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StuUK on June 23, 2017, 01:12:28 pm

Is Batteriser in it's quiet death throes?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: AndyC_772 on June 23, 2017, 01:33:20 pm

Yes, but it's just taking 800% longer to die.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on June 23, 2017, 01:47:09 pm

Quote from: AndyC_772 on June 23, 2017, 01:33:20 pm

Yes, but it's just taking 800% longer to die.

[:chuckle:]

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BarsMonster on June 30, 2017, 06:33:51 am

Quote from: Luminax on May 11, 2017, 07:45:19 am

According to the other thread, it was delivered on 6th of April, about a month has passed so maybe... just maybe we might get something? any shaker here with link to Zeptobars?

Sorry guys for taking this too long. Going through all the backlog...
https://zeptobars.com/en/read/BTR004K-Batteriser-Batteroo-switched-capacitor-boost-dcdc

(https://s.zeptobars.com/batteriser-btr004k.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: bktemp on June 30, 2017, 06:43:36 am

Quote from: BarsMonster on June 30, 2017, 06:33:51 am

https://zeptobars.com/en/read/BTR004K-Batteriser-Batteroo-switched-capacitor-boost-dcdc (https://zeptobars.com/en/read/BTR004K-Batteriser-Batteroo-switched-capacitor-boost-dcdc)

Are you sure it is a capacitor boost circuit? Based on the circuit it looks more like a typical boost converter.
And even the Batteroo pages shows inductors:
https://www.batteroo.com/technology-page/ (https://www.batteroo.com/technology-page/)

Could you (or somebody else with knowledge in chip design) please explain a bit what we are seeing on this picture?
The picture looks great, but I have no idea what the individual areas are. Are the right area individual mosfets? Why does it have so many pads, the IC has only 8 pins. Were some of the mosfets connected in parallel?
Based on the circuit I would expect a synchronous boost converter, so 2x 2 mosfets connected in series.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BarsMonster on June 30, 2017, 07:04:22 am

Quote from: bktemp on June 30, 2017, 06:43:36 am

Are you sure it is a capacitor boost circuit? Based on the circuit it looks more like a typical boost converter.
[...]
The picture looks great, but I have no idea what the individual areas are. Are the right area individual mosfets? Why does it have so many pads, the IC has only 8 pins. Were some of the mosfets connected in parallel?

You are correct, I was too quick with my conclusions.

There are 4 mosfets, but they are most likely not parallel - rather they share IC pins (like connecting SW1/SW2 to ground/output - so they are SW1->ground, SW1->VO1, SW2->ground, SW2->VO2). All connections to package are long gone, so we can only guess how 4 mosfets were used here. Looks like 2-phase boost converter?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: lpickup on June 30, 2017, 02:38:49 pm

Quote from: bktemp on June 30, 2017, 06:43:36 am

Could you (or somebody else with knowledge in chip design) please explain a bit what we are seeing on this picture?
The picture looks great, but I have no idea what the individual areas are. Are the right area individual mosfets? Why does it have so many pads, the IC has only 8 pins. Were some of the mosfets connected in parallel?

The area to the right (at least the giant blobs of light pink material) are basically just the top level of metal.  You can't really see what's underneath, although if you look in the darker pink areas between them (particularly in the right center) you can see that there are structures below.

The large light pink "box" 25% from the left and slightly above center is interesting in that it's not used as a pad contact.  Maybe this is a large MIM (metal-insulator-metal) cap, although it would be surprising that the chip process would allow this on a metal layer at the top of the metal stack (the insulator for MIMCAPs have to be incredibly thin so it would be subject to mechanical stress).

A lot of the structures you see are really just wires.  The two light pink concentric structures in the center, just to the left of the pad contacts might be spiral inductors.

The reddish structure just above the lone pad sitting at 25% from the left and below center looks like it might be an interdigitated capacitor.

To really see more of the active devices they'd have to peel away a few of the top metal layers and provide a bit more magnification.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on July 07, 2017, 09:37:42 am

More angry comments and a new video, a video where it seems they finally got a product that may actually just give something considering the lower voltage of rechargeable battery's, but have anybody tried a wireless mouse or keyboard at different voltages to see if going over 1.2V will give you extra range on your mouse and keyboard?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_BOW8jjatA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_BOW8jjatA)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on July 08, 2017, 01:01:00 am

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on July 07, 2017, 09:37:42 am

a video where it seems they finally got a product that may actually just give something considering the lower voltage

For crappy products that would benefit from but don't have a switching converter - same as the original.

Bob says "but we need your support to bring Batteroo  Reboost technology to the market" and "With your help we can revolutionise how rechargable can power up the world".

Sounds like another indiegogo scam is planned.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 08, 2017, 01:24:33 am

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on July 07, 2017, 09:37:42 am

More angry comments and a new video, a video where it seems they finally got a product that may actually just give something considering the lower voltage of rechargeable battery's, but have anybody tried a wireless mouse or keyboard at different voltages to see if going over 1.2V will give you extra range on your mouse and keyboard?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_BOW8jjatA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_BOW8jjatA)

They're BACK!
Another crowd funding campaign headed our way  :palm:
Seems like they have learned their lesson about outrageous headline claims. But of course the classic misleading flashlight example is in there again.
I don't mind the D cell solution though, but as always, they think this will change the world, when it's really a reasonably niche market.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 08, 2017, 01:28:33 am

Coming to Kickstarter in 9 days:
https://www.batterooreboost.com/ (https://www.batterooreboost.com/)

This thread is about to get infinitely longer!

Will be interesting to see if they are more or less successful this time.
Kickstarter is arguably a bigger market, the rechargable D cell thing is technically a more useful solution than the original Batteriser, but they don't have the same banner 800% bullshit claims.

Of course they won't have solved the existing problems. The first being the horribly unreliable and delicate sleeve and spring contact which would effectively negate the reusable aspect of the rechargeables.
And the overheating issues could get a LOT worse with rechargeables that have a much lower ESR and gave deliver more energy into a short. I hope they have good liability insurance.

So it will be more useful and practical than the original Batteriser primary cell design, but it's still not a universal solution. Because any properly designed product will have good support for rechargeables already.

Seems like they have failed miserably with their existing primary cell Batteroo sleeve, i.e. they haven't gotten it into the big market stores as they wanted to. And they have to run another crowd funding campaign to try and boost (pun intended) more investor interest.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on July 08, 2017, 04:51:16 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 08, 2017, 01:28:33 am

This thread is about to get infinitely longer!

I would hope it would not be that much of an explosion.

We don't need to debate whether they have a chip...
We don't need to debate whether they could produce a product...
We might have a few thoughts about different cell configurations, but we don't need to debate the mechanical issues with the original single cell design...

We can wonder about the delivery timeline and whether their communications will be any better.
We can discuss whether their "fresh" angle will find them better markets.

Quote

Will be interesting to see if they are more or less successful this time.

It will.

Quote

Kickstarter is arguably a bigger market, the rechargable D cell thing is technically a more useful solution than the original Batteriser, but they don't have the same banner 800% bullshit claims.

Some positive elements to this latest initiative, however there is still a history, and that will hamper their efforts, I'm sure.

Quote

Of course they won't have solved the existing problems. The first being the horribly unreliable and delicate sleeve and spring contact which would effectively negate the reusable aspect of the rechargeables.
And the overheating issues could get a LOT worse with rechargeables that have a much lower ESR and gave deliver more energy into a short. I hope they have good liability insurance.

We can only hope for some pleasant surprises here.


The good news ... and the bad news ....

Quote

So it will be more useful and practical than the original Batteriser primary cell design, but it's still not a universal solution. Because any properly designed product will have good support for rechargeables already.

Quote

Seems like they have failed miserably with their existing primary cell Batteroo sleeve, i.e. they haven't gotten it into the big market stores as they wanted to. And they have to run another crowd funding campaign to try and boost (pun intended) more investor interest.

You have to admire their tenacity.  You also have to wonder about their wisdom.



Time for some fresh popcorn.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on July 08, 2017, 05:14:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 08, 2017, 01:28:33 am

Will be interesting to see if they are more or less successful this time.
Kickstarter is arguably a bigger market, the rechargable D cell thing is technically a more useful solution than the original Batteriser, but they don't have the same banner 800% bullshit claims.

They are still trying as hard as possible to mislead, even if they are technically accurate. This graph is probably accurate for one particular torch, but the graph is truncated just where the non-boosted torch brightness flattens off and then lasts for two or three times the life of the Batteriser boosted battery.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=330163)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: frozenfrogz on July 08, 2017, 06:54:50 am

It is like dealing with zombies: You can batter them but they still keep on coming at you like a roo bar. Hence the name?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 08, 2017, 07:58:50 am

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on July 07, 2017, 09:37:42 am

More angry comments and a new video, a video where it seems they finally got a product that may actually just give something considering the lower voltage of rechargeable battery's, but have anybody tried a wireless mouse or keyboard at different voltages to see if going over 1.2V will give you extra range on your mouse and keyboard?

Again, well designed products like mice and keyboards that use Alkalines last for a year or more, there is no real need to use rechargeables, and the battery life will likely be shorter.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 08, 2017, 08:00:51 am

Quote from: amspire on July 08, 2017, 05:14:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 08, 2017, 01:28:33 am

Will be interesting to see if they are more or less successful this time.
Kickstarter is arguably a bigger market, the rechargable D cell thing is technically a more useful solution than the original Batteriser, but they don't have the same banner 800% bullshit claims.

They are still trying as hard as possible to mislead, even if they are technically accurate. This graph is probably accurate for one particular torch, but the graph is truncated just where the non-boosted torch brightness flattens off and then lasts for two or three times the life of the Batteriser boosted battery.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=330163)

Yup, will be interesting to see if we can find out the actual torch used and then duplicate the test.
Many of their other tests have been misleading or even completely fraudulent (Golf GPS), so this one is no different.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 08, 2017, 08:03:42 am

Quote from: Brumby on July 08, 2017, 04:51:16 am

Quote

Kickstarter is arguably a bigger market, the rechargable D cell thing is technically a more useful solution than the original Batteriser, but they don't have the same banner 800% bullshit claims.

Some positive elements to this latest initiative, however there is still a history, and that will hamper their efforts, I'm sure.

There is an infinite supply of Kickstarter backers with money to spend. I expect their previous effort to have almost no impact on this Kickstarters, unless a ton of back flood the comments reminding people of the previous campaign.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on July 08, 2017, 08:22:08 am

Quote from: amspire on July 08, 2017, 05:14:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 08, 2017, 01:28:33 am

Will be interesting to see if they are more or less successful this time.
Kickstarter is arguably a bigger market, the rechargable D cell thing is technically a more useful solution than the original Batteriser, but they don't have the same banner 800% bullshit claims.

They are still trying as hard as possible to mislead, even if they are technically accurate. This graph is probably accurate for one particular torch, but the graph is truncated just where the non-boosted torch brightness flattens off and then lasts for two or three times the life of the Batteriser boosted battery.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=330163)

Also the graph starts at 7000 lux......
But i would like to know about just keyboard and mouse specific at 1.1-1.6, my mouse seems not to last that long on rechargeable battery's, but i have a lot so no problem with a quick change, but the range vs voltage would be nice to test, if no difference is measured from 1.1-1.6V then that destroys one of their arguments even before the launch of kickstarter.
Also aren't we all going over to 18650, i mean i have been using them for 10+ years.
Or internal LiPo/Li-ion batteries, of course there are still many products that use AA and AAA and we already know that the batteriser does almost nothing and running from start makes it "worse"

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BradC on July 08, 2017, 12:31:16 pm

I have a couple of shit products that don't cope well with rechargeable at all. Devices where I don't care about warning or linear voltage drop. I'd pay good money for a sleeve that takes an eneloop and gives a reliable 1.5V without significantly adding to the quiescent draw and fits in the battery bay.

That's a limited use case though.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on July 08, 2017, 01:49:53 pm

High capacity NiMh batteries like eneloops push the limit of the battery dimensions. You see occasional complaints about products where 'fat' rechargeables don't fit or get stuck.

Their 'doesn't fit' problems can only be worse.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on July 08, 2017, 06:12:34 pm

Quote from: amspire on July 08, 2017, 05:14:19 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 08, 2017, 01:28:33 am

Will be interesting to see if they are more or less successful this time.
Kickstarter is arguably a bigger market, the rechargable D cell thing is technically a more useful solution than the original Batteriser, but they don't have the same banner 800% bullshit claims.

They are still trying as hard as possible to mislead, even if they are technically accurate. This graph is probably accurate for one particular torch, but the graph is truncated just where the non-boosted torch brightness flattens off and then lasts for two or three times the life of the Batteriser boosted battery.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=330163)

Ahh, lesson one from "How to Lie with Statistics".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on July 09, 2017, 03:23:25 am

Yep.

First paragraph begins: "Where to put your axes."

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on July 09, 2017, 03:35:47 am

It looks like they have taken a torch that can easily last the whole night at a perfectly adequate brightness and turned it into one that will start to dim at midnight and die totally at 1am. Well done!

They keep talking about saving batteries. How are they saving batteries by discharging batteries at double or triple the torch's designed discharge rate?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on July 09, 2017, 03:53:06 am

The waters are being muddied a bit by a secondary benefit.

By maintaining a consistent voltage, the performance of the device is kept consistent.  Sure, the total run time for any given battery will be less, but for a number of people, this might actually be more preferable than extra hours.

This is probably a more honest marketing approach for the chip they are using, but it doesn't sell as well as the idea of getting more juice out of a battery.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on July 09, 2017, 06:23:05 am

Quote from: Cerebus on July 08, 2017, 06:12:34 pm

Ahh, lesson one from "How to Lie with Statistics".

The bigger lie is "KEEPS YOUR FLASHLIGHT AT OPTIMAL....".

The truth is it keeps the cheap crappy flashlight they selected at optimal....

I own 5 flashlights - all LED and all have switch mode current regulation.

Spending $5 on a better flashlight instead of battroo sleeves is a no brainer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on July 09, 2017, 07:30:36 am

Quote from: Hensingler on July 09, 2017, 06:23:05 am

Spending $5 on a better flashlight instead of battroo sleeves is a no brainer.

You would think.... but I have seen it before, where people will put in hours and money into making a $2 item - such as a flashlight - perform above and beyond.

I've also seen people put in a couple of hours trying to make a half-hour job easier.



Go figure.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on July 09, 2017, 11:20:03 am

Now that Dave has his nice battery simulator he can do more tests ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on July 10, 2017, 06:53:19 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/bERAVGk.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Davey_Jonez on July 10, 2017, 10:39:33 pm

The flashlight(torch) curve they show is for the Smart Shell. That has multiple batteries in it. That will last longer than the single batteries. So, they are going to have brighter and longer with that setup. Yes, much more useful than the previous stuff. 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Davey_Jonez on July 10, 2017, 11:08:26 pm

That is absolutely incorrect.
They have three AA batteries in each D smart shell vs a D battery. If I just use Energizer specs that is 3 X 2300mAH for each Smart Shell vs 2500mAH for each Energizer D battery. So the run time with their Smart Shells has to be longer.  Probably around two times longer run time even with boost. Yes/No?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 10, 2017, 11:14:09 pm

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on July 10, 2017, 11:08:26 pm

That is absolutely incorrect.
They have three AA batteries in each D smart shell vs a D battery. If I just use Energizer specs that is 3 X 2300mAH for each Smart Shell vs 2500mAH for each Energizer D battery. So the run time with their Smart Shells has to be longer.  Probably around two times longer run time even with boost. Yes/No?

$1.26 including postage:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Parallel-AA-Battery-Adapter-Holder-1-5V-Case-Box-Converter-3-AA-to-1-D-Size/131912143816 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Parallel-AA-Battery-Adapter-Holder-1-5V-Case-Box-Converter-3-AA-to-1-D-Size/131912143816)

And you are incorrect. An Energizer D cell has 12000mAh capacity at 250mA. More for lower currents
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e95.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e95.pdf)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 10, 2017, 11:17:57 pm

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on July 10, 2017, 10:39:33 pm

The flashlight(torch) curve they show is for the Smart Shell. That has multiple batteries in it. That will last longer than the single batteries. So, they are going to have brighter and longer with that setup. Yes, much more useful than the previous stuff.

Who are you "Davey Jonez"? Do you work for or are affiliated with Batteroo?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ez24 on July 10, 2017, 11:33:26 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 10, 2017, 11:14:09 pm

$1.26 including postage:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Parallel-AA-Battery-Adapter-Holder-1-5V-Case-Box-Converter-3-AA-to-1-D-Size/131912143816 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Parallel-AA-Battery-Adapter-Holder-1-5V-Case-Box-Converter-3-AA-to-1-D-Size/131912143816)

Thanks - I just ordered 10 so I can use my Eneloop AA batteries in the few D cell devices I have (dog feeders)  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 10, 2017, 11:42:45 pm

BTW, I'm assuming that the Batteroo Reboost D cell holder just puts the cells in parallel like the cheap ebay ones?
If so then any imbalance in the cell charge will be an issue and power will be wasted in the internal ESR which is certainly not ideal.
I doubt they will use 3 separate chips and parallel the outputs? but it's possible.
On second though, given the high current applications for D cells, it would pretty demand that they use separate chips. Unless they want to claim again that the sleeve can magically output any current the battery can.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on July 11, 2017, 12:02:45 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 10, 2017, 11:42:45 pm

BTW, I'm assuming that the Batteroo Reboost D cell holder just puts the cells in parallel like the cheap ebay ones?
If so then any imbalance in the cell charge will be an issue and power will be wasted in the internal ESR which is certainly not ideal.
I doubt they will use 3 separate chips and parallel the outputs? but it's possible.

I guess it depends if they want to make a genuinely useful product this time. Should be interesting and maybe even worthwhile if they do include a chip per cell.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on July 11, 2017, 12:06:09 am

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on July 10, 2017, 11:08:26 pm

That is absolutely incorrect.
They have three AA batteries in each D smart shell vs a D battery. If I just use Energizer specs that is 3 X 2300mAH for each Smart Shell vs 2500mAH for each Energizer D battery. So the run time with their Smart Shells has to be longer.  Probably around two times longer run time even with boost. Yes/No?

No.

An Energizer Alkaline D cell at 500mA discharge is around 9000mA hours. At 600mA for 2 hours a day, you can get 15 hours of life. That also equates to about 9000mAH. So it stores more energy then 3xAA cells easily. Also you can get NiMH D cells around the 10,000mAH. Where did you get the 2500mAH number for D cells from?

http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e95.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e95.pdf)

An Energizer AA cell at 500mA/3 = 166mA has a capacity of about 2000mAH, so three of them equate to 6000mAH.

http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e91.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e91.pdf)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on July 11, 2017, 01:07:04 am

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on July 10, 2017, 11:08:26 pm

That is absolutely incorrect.
They have three AA batteries in each D smart shell vs a D battery. If I just use Energizer specs that is 3 X 2300mAH for each Smart Shell vs 2500mAH for each Energizer D battery. ... ...

You have to be kidding.

Quote from: EEVblog on July 10, 2017, 11:14:09 pm

... ... ...

And you are incorrect. An Energizer D cell has 12000mAh capacity at 250mA. More for lower currents
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e95.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e95.pdf)

Quote from: amspire on July 11, 2017, 12:06:09 am

An Energizer Alkaline D cell at 500mA discharge is around 9000mA hours. At 600mA for 2 hours a day, you can get 15 hours of life. That also equates to about 9000mAH. So it stores more energy then 3xAA cells easily. Also you can get NiMH D cells around the 10,000mAH. Where did you get the 2500mAH number for D cells from?

http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e95.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e95.pdf)

An Energizer AA cell at 500mA/3 = 166mA has a capacity of about 2000mAH, so three of them equate to 6000mAH.

http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e91.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e91.pdf)

These are numbers that make far more sense to me - and the data sheets just confirm my understanding.

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on July 10, 2017, 11:08:26 pm

So the run time with their Smart Shells has to be longer.  Probably around two times longer run time even with boost. Yes/No?

Ahhhh ... No.

I find the argument fundamentally incredible - as in - unbelievable, lacking in logic, failing in fact.

Just think for a microsecond ... why do they make 'D' cells?  Aside from greater peak current capacity, it's because they have greater energy capacity, which comes from the volume of the chemistry inside.  Considering the type of chemistry is the same, it can be said pretty conclusively that 3 smaller cylinders of that chemistry that fit in the space of one larger cylinder must ALWAYS have less capacity than the larger cylinder, because the air in between isn't providing any power.


But, then this is Batteroo we're talking about, so perhaps I am missing something where some fundamentals of physics and chemistry can be overruled.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on July 11, 2017, 01:14:50 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 10, 2017, 11:17:57 pm

Who are you "Davey Jonez"? Do you work for or are affiliated with Batteroo?

He has only posted rubbish to this thread starting almost 2 years ago, he is probably of one of the families' idiot children lacking the imagination to think up a real false name.

Grabbed from the indiegogo site a while ago

Quote

Simon Says
19 days ago
Private
Daisy Datez
19 days ago
$1USD
Jones David
19 days ago
$1USD

He is likely the 3rd of these 1$ batteroo shills, or probably all of them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on July 11, 2017, 05:58:02 am

OMG, so much  :palm: :palm: :palm:

They say in their marketing crap: "Did you know that rechargeable batteries are configured at a lower voltage than their alkaline counterparts?"
That sounds like it was written by someone who has no idea what he is talking about. "Configured at a lower voltage?" Idiots.
Also:
(http://panasonicenergyindia.in/eneloop/assets/css/images/scale.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ebastler on July 11, 2017, 06:18:19 am

Quote from: samgab on July 11, 2017, 05:58:02 am

(http://panasonicenergyindia.in/eneloop/assets/css/images/scale.jpg)

That looks just as dishonest than the Batterizer graphs?!  :o

It seems they are looking at AA batteries here, with the eneloop coming in at ~2000 mAh.
So what AA Alkaline battery did they compare to, which provides only 1000 mAh?!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on July 11, 2017, 06:33:14 am

The curve is probably correct, but it lacking a vital information: The discharge current.

Alkalines has higher voltage than NiMH as is clearly shown by this curve:
(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/BatteryAA/data/AA%20batteries%20at%200.01A.png)

But on the other hand NiMH has higher voltage than alkaline most of the time as is clearly shown on this curve:
(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/BatteryAA/data/AA%20batteries%20at%201A.png)

It depends on the discharge current.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: samgab on July 11, 2017, 06:37:03 am

Quote from: ebastler on July 11, 2017, 06:18:19 am

That looks just as dishonest than the Batterizer graphs?!  :o

It seems they are looking at AA batteries here, with the eneloop coming in at ~2000 mAh.
So what AA Alkaline battery did they compare to, which provides only 1000 mAh?!

Actually, that is precisely what the discharge curves look like in real life, with for instance a 1A discharge. Pick any quality Alkaline, Duracell, Panasonic, Energiser.
Here's a real example of a 1A discharge on an eneloop and a Duracell Alkaline:
(http://i.imgur.com/1zGT4eX.png)
The eneloop chart is actually completely accurate and honest. Sure it's only at one particular constant current discharge load, but if they used lots of different curves the chart would be unreadable.
-Source: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/CommonAAcomparator.php (http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/CommonAAcomparator.php)  Pick some cells and have a play around for yourself. I've done plenty of discharge testing myself, so I'm familiar with the common discharge curves.

lol, looks like HKJ, the source of that charge beat me to it! Thanks HKJ ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 11, 2017, 06:50:12 am

And don't forgot that D size NiHM cells have 10,000mAh capacity, and no loss by having unmatched cells in parallel
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/13542.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/13542.pdf)
Of course there is a case to be made for using standard AA's NiMH instead of D size, but you can buy those adapters for $1.26 on ebay delivered.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 11, 2017, 06:53:16 am

Quote from: ebastler on July 11, 2017, 06:18:19 am

Quote from: samgab on July 11, 2017, 05:58:02 am

(http://panasonicenergyindia.in/eneloop/assets/css/images/scale.jpg)

That looks just as dishonest than the Batterizer graphs?!  :o

It seems they are looking at AA batteries here, with the eneloop coming in at ~2000 mAh.
So what AA Alkaline battery did they compare to, which provides only 1000 mAh?!

A normal one like an Energizer.
Capacity drops with current, and isn't much more than 1000mAh at 500mA. Try a 1A discharge and it'll be less again, and I'll let you guess the figure...
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e91.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e91.pdf)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on July 11, 2017, 06:53:57 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 11, 2017, 06:50:12 am

And don't forgot that D size NiHM cells have 10,000mAh capacity, and no loss by having unmatched cells in parallel
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/13542.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/13542.pdf)
Of course there is a case to be made for using standard AA's NiMH instead of D size, but you can buy those adapters for $1.26 on ebay delivered.

There's an easy video test for you then Dave.... Assuming there are enough suckers on Kickstarter to fund them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 11, 2017, 06:56:23 am

Quote from: HKJ on July 11, 2017, 06:33:14 am

The curve is probably correct, but it lacking a vital information: The discharge current.

Alkalines has higher voltage than NiMH as is clearly shown by this curve:
(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/BatteryAA/data/AA%20batteries%20at%200.01A.png)

It depends on the discharge current.

Exactly.
An Alkaline will have a higher discharge voltage than a NiMH most of the time, but only for low dischareg current, like 10mA in that graph.
At higher currents the lower and more consistent ESR of the NIMH cell wins out and will provide a higher voltage for most of the discharge.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 11, 2017, 06:57:23 am

Quote from: djos on July 11, 2017, 06:53:57 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 11, 2017, 06:50:12 am

And don't forgot that D size NiHM cells have 10,000mAh capacity, and no loss by having unmatched cells in parallel
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/13542.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/13542.pdf)
Of course there is a case to be made for using standard AA's NiMH instead of D size, but you can buy those adapters for $1.26 on ebay delivered.

There's an easy video test for you then Dave.... Assuming there are enough suckers on Kickstarter to fund them.

Any video will have to wait until the campaign starts, who knows what juicy claims they have in store!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on July 11, 2017, 07:02:13 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 11, 2017, 06:57:23 am

Quote from: djos on July 11, 2017, 06:53:57 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 11, 2017, 06:50:12 am

And don't forgot that D size NiHM cells have 10,000mAh capacity, and no loss by having unmatched cells in parallel
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/13542.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/13542.pdf)
Of course there is a case to be made for using standard AA's NiMH instead of D size, but you can buy those adapters for $1.26 on ebay delivered.

There's an easy video test for you then Dave.... Assuming there are enough suckers on Kickstarter to fund them.

Any video will have to wait until the campaign starts, who knows what juicy claims they have in store!

Too true, although I think Kickstarter will boot them if the claims are on par with the IGG campaign.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ebastler on July 11, 2017, 07:09:47 am

Thanks, all, for the background on Alkaline capacity vs. discharge current. I had not realized that the capacity degrades that much at higher currents. (And I guess I assumed a lower current anyway, since I would typically not use battery-powered devices which give only 1h of run time.)

So, not a dishonest chart on the Eneloops, but a slightly selective one. And the chart conveniently forgets to mention the high discharge current.  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 11, 2017, 09:42:37 am

Quote from: djos on July 11, 2017, 07:02:13 am

Too true, although I think Kickstarter will boot them if the claims are on par with the IGG campaign.

Not going to happen. They have real hardware, they are a real company, they have reputable* founders, and a track record.
No rule against exaggerating your marketing claims, or claiming one legitimate usage case and then suggesting it will save the world.
Heck, even the original 800% campaign would have been 100% legitimate if they could have found a single device to back it up under certain circumstances.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Davey_Jonez on July 11, 2017, 10:52:37 pm

Yes, have seen those adapters, but they also boost with their Smart Shell, so brighter too. Of course off the shelf adapter will then run longer.
I have a few incandescent flashlights around, the ones that I have ( 2X D battery) are 700mA at 3V

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Davey_Jonez on July 11, 2017, 10:58:27 pm

I just post when the mood strikes. Nothing to do with that place. I have worked for Startups and large companies.
Just pointing things out is all. As was said, it will benefit some products they currently cannot use rechargeable batteries, if they fit.

One thing that I am not familiar with is when rechargeable batteries are deep discharged, what kind of damage can occur? Do they lose charge cycle count? Charge capacity? Both?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Davey_Jonez on July 11, 2017, 11:01:19 pm

Have to say that you are incorrect.

I do remember how childish things got on here back then. Sure, Batteriser marketing was over the top with claims, but some 'people' on here were actually worse. IMHO.

Well..... back to work for me.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on July 11, 2017, 11:53:16 pm

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on July 11, 2017, 11:01:19 pm

Have to say that you are incorrect.

Can you use the quote function when replying to ppl please, we have no idea who's statement you believe to be incorrect due to a lack of context.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on July 12, 2017, 01:52:47 am

Quote from: djos on July 11, 2017, 11:53:16 pm

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on July 11, 2017, 11:01:19 pm

Have to say that you are incorrect.

Can you use the quote function when replying to ppl please, we have no idea who's statement you believe to be incorrect due to a lack of context.

Too complicated.

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on July 11, 2017, 11:01:19 pm

Well..... back to work for me.

Yep them burgers won't flip themselves.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on July 12, 2017, 02:48:13 am

Quote from: Hensingler on July 12, 2017, 01:52:47 am

Quote from: djos on July 11, 2017, 11:53:16 pm

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on July 11, 2017, 11:01:19 pm

Have to say that you are incorrect.

Can you use the quote function when replying to ppl please, we have no idea who's statement you believe to be incorrect due to a lack of context.

Too complicated.

If I can do it, anyone can...  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on July 12, 2017, 08:07:20 am

So they need a "re-boost" because their first product was an utter failure? Roohparvar's run out of money for their cocktails did they?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on July 12, 2017, 08:39:36 am

Quote from: Halcyon on July 12, 2017, 08:07:20 am

So they need a "re-boost" because their first product was an utter failure? Roohparvar's run out of money for their cocktails did they?

They probably need to make a new version of their chip that converts the voltage of 3 AA cells in series to 1.5V.  They may also want to increase power that may mean 4 outputs in parallel instead of two. That could cost a lot of money. If they can get that money in advance, it makes business sense.

Again, technically, it would be a product that could have some real usefulness. Some people will probably have a D cell powered device that works better at a full 1.4-1.5V. The problem has always been the dubious and exaggerated claims in the marketing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 12, 2017, 12:27:23 pm

Quote from: Davey_Jonez on July 11, 2017, 11:01:19 pm

Have to say that you are incorrect.

I do remember how childish things got on here back then. Sure, Batteriser marketing was over the top with claims, but some 'people' on here were actually worse. IMHO.

Well..... back to work for me.

Back to work at, very coincidentally, an SK Telecom affiliated company. The very same SK Telecom Innopartners venture capital company who just so happen to be investors in Batteroo.
http://sktainnopartners.com/welcome-to-batteroo/ (http://sktainnopartners.com/welcome-to-batteroo/)
Tell Bob I said Hi.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on July 12, 2017, 02:32:35 pm

I think they failed to establish a deal with a big cheap electronics distributor for the batterizer and the want another go with this new product.

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: frozenfrogz on July 12, 2017, 02:36:17 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 12, 2017, 12:27:23 pm

very coincidentally

So apparently someone not going the extra mile to using a VPN from within the companies network I suppose? xD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: free_electron on July 12, 2017, 03:13:56 pm

Quote from: samgab on July 11, 2017, 05:58:02 am

OMG, so much  :palm: :palm: :palm:

They say in their marketing crap: "Did you know that rechargeable batteries are configured at a lower voltage than their alkaline counterparts?"
That sounds like it was written by someone who has no idea what he is talking about. "Configured at a lower voltage?" Idiots.
Also:

i have rechargeables configured at 3.3 or 4.2 volts >:)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on July 12, 2017, 04:52:42 pm

Quote from: free_electron on July 12, 2017, 03:13:56 pm

Quote from: samgab on July 11, 2017, 05:58:02 am

OMG, so much  :palm: :palm: :palm:

They say in their marketing crap: "Did you know that rechargeable batteries are configured at a lower voltage than their alkaline counterparts?"
That sounds like it was written by someone who has no idea what he is talking about. "Configured at a lower voltage?" Idiots.
Also:

i have rechargeables configured at 3.3 or 4.2 volts >:)

Damnit big battery corporation conspiracy! Tell me, where do I have to drill a hole to uncover the secret configuration potentiometer?!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SeanB on July 12, 2017, 05:27:39 pm

Most incandescent torch bulbs are designed for rated life at around 1V3, as this is the average discharge voltage during operation. running them at 1V5 will definitely overdrive them, so it will be a toss up which will go out first, the batteries or the bulb itself. With Maglites that little expensive lamp is only rated for 100 hours or so anyway, and running it a lot brighter will drop life down to only a few hours.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on July 12, 2017, 11:52:30 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on July 12, 2017, 04:52:42 pm

Quote from: free_electron on July 12, 2017, 03:13:56 pm

Quote from: samgab on July 11, 2017, 05:58:02 am

OMG, so much  :palm: :palm: :palm:

They say in their marketing crap: "Did you know that rechargeable batteries are configured at a lower voltage than their alkaline counterparts?"
That sounds like it was written by someone who has no idea what he is talking about. "Configured at a lower voltage?" Idiots.
Also:

i have rechargeables configured at 3.3 or 4.2 volts >:)

Damnit big battery corporation conspiracy! Tell me, where do I have to drill a hole to uncover the secret configuration potentiometer?!

Trepanning is traditionally done about a inch or so above the bridge of the nose.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Daveyjonezanus on July 13, 2017, 12:18:15 am

That is absolutely incorrect.
They have three AA batteries in each D smart shell vs a D battery. If I just use Energizer specs that is 3 X 2300mAH for each Smart Shell vs 2500mAH for each Energizer D battery. So the run time with their Smart Shells has to be longer.  Probably around two times longer run time even with boost. Yes/No?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Daveyjonezanus on July 13, 2017, 12:26:40 am

More like do not really care.............
Figure it out, the curve that was edited to show the D rechargeable batteries vs their Smart Shells. Someone posted an edited version ( do not care to waste time locating it) and this person showed the batteries only will run past the time the Smart Shells stop. I believe that the Daveyjonez person said that was incorrect. The reason is simple, 2X 2500mAH D batteries vs 6X 2300mAH AA batteries. Yes, boost will bring them down faster than without, but they have a legitimate graph. Brighter and slightly longer run time.
Yes, there is an off the shelf 3AA to D adapter, but the light will not be brighter so ?

There is some usefulness to this. Instead of just constantly berating products how about trying to find uses for it? You know, something that may help some people. And not everyone is into tech, so think non-nerd too. And also not everyone has new flashlights (LED), some people keep things around until they are completely useless as in no longer able to function as intended, no more replacement parts etc.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on July 13, 2017, 01:23:52 am

Quote from: Daveyjonezanus on July 13, 2017, 12:18:15 am

That is absolutely incorrect.
They have three AA batteries in each D smart shell vs a D battery. If I just use Energizer specs that is 3 X 2300mAH for each Smart Shell vs 2500mAH for each Energizer D battery. So the run time with their Smart Shells has to be longer.  Probably around two times longer run time even with boost. Yes/No?

So you got banned for being a shill, created a new account with the word "anus" in it just to be a rebel (or something) and you still can't work out how to use the quote system!!! 

 :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on July 13, 2017, 01:49:06 am

Quote from: djos on July 13, 2017, 01:23:52 am

Quote from: Daveyjonezanus on July 13, 2017, 12:18:15 am

That is absolutely incorrect.
They have three AA batteries in each D smart shell vs a D battery. If I just use Energizer specs that is 3 X 2300mAH for each Smart Shell vs 2500mAH for each Energizer D battery. So the run time with their Smart Shells has to be longer.  Probably around two times longer run time even with boost. Yes/No?

So you got banned for being a shill, created a new account with the word "anus" in it just to be a rebel (or something) and you still can't work out how to use the quote system!!! 

 :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:

He's like the Energizer bunnyBatteroo kangaroo... just keeps going and going and going.... :palm: :palm: :palm: |O

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 13, 2017, 01:58:10 am

Quote from: djos on July 13, 2017, 01:23:52 am

Quote from: Daveyjonezanus on July 13, 2017, 12:18:15 am

That is absolutely incorrect.
They have three AA batteries in each D smart shell vs a D battery. If I just use Energizer specs that is 3 X 2300mAH for each Smart Shell vs 2500mAH for each Energizer D battery. So the run time with their Smart Shells has to be longer.  Probably around two times longer run time even with boost. Yes/No?

So you got banned for being a shill, created a new account with the word "anus" in it just to be a rebel (or something) and you still can't work out how to use the quote system!!! 
 :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:

I didn't even ban him, he created another account off his own bat.

For the record, here you go, the Batteroo Shill works at an SK Telecom office, likely down the corridor from our mate Dr Bob. Please say Hi to him for us.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=331411;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 13, 2017, 02:10:32 am

Quote from: Daveyjonezanus on July 13, 2017, 12:26:40 am

Yes, there is an off the shelf 3AA to D adapter, but the light will not be brighter so ?

For ordinary incandescent bulbs, brighter = shorter bulb life, most often drastically shorter life.
And this is the one huge headline product application and benefit you are promoting?  :-DD
And it would likely cost the same or less to simply buy a new LED torch then a couple of Reboosts. And the new torch gives the same or greater light output and infinite LED bulb life, and has the regulalor circuitry built in. Your claimed benefit can't get more niche than that really.
But granted, the new ReBoost is at least more useful than the previous Batteriser.

Quote

There is some usefulness to this. Instead of just constantly berating products how about trying to find uses for it? You know, something that may help some people. And not everyone is into tech, so think non-nerd too. And also not everyone has new flashlights (LED), some people keep things around until they are completely useless as in no longer able to function as intended, no more replacement parts etc.

Sure a small niche market. But that's really going to be a crap return on investment for Batteroo's investors.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on July 13, 2017, 02:15:42 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 13, 2017, 01:58:10 am

Quote from: djos on July 13, 2017, 01:23:52 am

Quote from: Daveyjonezanus on July 13, 2017, 12:18:15 am

That is absolutely incorrect.
They have three AA batteries in each D smart shell vs a D battery. If I just use Energizer specs that is 3 X 2300mAH for each Smart Shell vs 2500mAH for each Energizer D battery. So the run time with their Smart Shells has to be longer.  Probably around two times longer run time even with boost. Yes/No?

So you got banned for being a shill, created a new account with the word "anus" in it just to be a rebel (or something) and you still can't work out how to use the quote system!!! 
 :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:

I didn't even ban him, he created another account off his own bat.

For the record, here you go, the Batteroo Shill works at an SK Telecom office, likely down the corridor from our mate Dr Bob. Please say Hi to him for us.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=331411;image)

Lol that's even worse! Creating obvious shill accounts to troll should get a banning!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on July 13, 2017, 02:52:36 am

Being a shill is a pretty lame pastime in itself, but trying to fly unadulterated bullshit past this forum's membership appears, quite simply, as sheer stupidity (sorry, I cannot think of a more politically correct term).

Marketing hype just doesn't work here - and, in fact, has the opposite effect to the intent. Throw out 3 bullshit claims alongside 3 real, verifiable and useful claims ... and the noise over the bullshit is going to drown out any voices that might recognise a real feature that would be useful in some applications, however niche they may be.  Unfortunately, this is all too common.  It's happened in this thread before and will no doubt happen again.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on July 13, 2017, 02:54:53 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 13, 2017, 01:58:10 am

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=331411;image)

That's not a digital fingerprint - that's almost a digital mug shot!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Hensingler on July 13, 2017, 03:39:01 am

Quote from: Daveyjonezanus on July 13, 2017, 12:18:15 am

They have three AA batteries in each D smart shell vs a D battery. If I just use Energizer specs that is 3 X 2300mAH for each Smart Shell vs 2500mAH for each Energizer D battery. So the run time with their Smart Shells has to be longer.  Probably around two times longer run time even with boost. Yes/No?

Yes but like just about every other Batteroo argument it only works 'if'. If you choose to compare crappy 2500mAh NiMh D cells Energizer obviously make more out of fresh air than NiMh. Real NiMh D cells specify capacities between 8000 and 11000 mAh.

A smart person would question (and find out) why a cell large enough to contain 3 AA cells only has 9% more capacity than a single AA cell, but then, we know you are not one.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: ej2095 on July 13, 2017, 08:14:04 am

Think i will go back to warming batteries up in the oven for a bit ;-0

Yes i used to do this as a child lol

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: madires on July 13, 2017, 09:54:22 am

Quote from: Daveyjonezanus on July 13, 2017, 12:18:15 am

That is absolutely incorrect.
They have three AA batteries in each D smart shell vs a D battery. If I just use Energizer specs that is 3 X 2300mAH for each Smart Shell vs 2500mAH for each Energizer D battery. So the run time with their Smart Shells has to be longer.  Probably around two times longer run time even with boost. Yes/No?

If a 2500mAh NiMH D cell is your reference you should use 500mAh NiMH AAs to match the crappiness. BTW, how much do the three 2300mAH NiMH AAs plus Smart Shell cost? An how much is the 2500mAh NiMH D cell?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on July 13, 2017, 11:55:37 am

It looks like Energizer has sold some 2500mAH NiMH D cells in packs of two. I gather these are very light-weight and have a 2500mAHSub-C cell NiMH battery inside. It is mostly air.

So yes, if you are stupid enough to buy a fake D cell that is really a sub-C cell, then 3xAA batteries have more energy. Batteroo supporters may well be that stupid.

But if you get a genuine D cell battery, the D cell demolishes the 3xAA cells for energy.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on July 13, 2017, 12:05:49 pm

Quote from: amspire on July 13, 2017, 11:55:37 am

So yes, if you are stupid enough to buy a fake D cell

We prefer the term 'price adjusted'.

We have to cater to a wide range of purchasers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on July 13, 2017, 12:28:22 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 13, 2017, 12:05:49 pm

Quote from: amspire on July 13, 2017, 11:55:37 am

So yes, if you are stupid enough to buy a fake D cell

We prefer the term 'price adjusted'.

We have to cater to a wide range of purchasers.

The weird thing is they are not cheap batteries. $16 for a pair at DigiKey:
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/energizer-battery-company/NH50BP-2/N701-ND/1040725 (https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/energizer-battery-company/NH50BP-2/N701-ND/1040725)
http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/nh50-2500.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/nh50-2500.pdf)

You can get 10,000mAH D NiMH Cells for the same price.

The weight of the Energizer fake D cells is 73g.  Real D cell batteries are between 160g and 180g. At 2A out, a real 10,000 mAH D cell NiMH can last 5 hours. This Energizer can last just a little over 1 hour.

You can get at least 13,000mAH D cells - 5 times the capacity of the Energizer, and double the capacity of the Batteroo + 3xAA.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on July 13, 2017, 12:32:44 pm

Looks like the 2500mAh D-cell is just a AA cell repackaged in a D-cell shell

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on July 13, 2017, 12:36:36 pm

Quote from: meeder on July 13, 2017, 12:32:44 pm

Looks like the 2500mAh D-cell is just a AA cell repackaged in a D-cell shell

As I said, I understand it is a sub-C cell in a D cell holder.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on July 13, 2017, 02:27:26 pm

Quote from: Fungus on July 13, 2017, 12:05:49 pm

Quote from: amspire on July 13, 2017, 11:55:37 am

So yes, if you are stupid enough to buy a fake D cell

We prefer the term 'price adjusted'.

We have to cater to a wide range of purchasers.

I thought you worked in Engineering, but now I see you actually work in Sales and Marketing :D

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 18, 2017, 11:52:09 am

"News provided by Batteroo Inc"  :-DD

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-kickstarts-rechargeable-batteries-crowdfunding-campaign-for-reboost-smartshell-and-smartsleeve-300485817.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-kickstarts-rechargeable-batteries-crowdfunding-campaign-for-reboost-smartshell-and-smartsleeve-300485817.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 18, 2017, 11:53:43 am

Their Kickstarter counter reached zero, but instead of starting they have a mailing list to get announced when it goes live.
https://www.batterooreboost.com/ (https://www.batterooreboost.com/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: jc101 on July 18, 2017, 12:14:31 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 18, 2017, 11:52:09 am

"News provided by Batteroo Inc"  :-DD

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-kickstarts-rechargeable-batteries-crowdfunding-campaign-for-reboost-smartshell-and-smartsleeve-300485817.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-kickstarts-rechargeable-batteries-crowdfunding-campaign-for-reboost-smartshell-and-smartsleeve-300485817.html)

Perhaps those still waiting on the indiegogo deliveries would like to contact the name on the press release, to get both sides of the "story"?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tchandler on July 18, 2017, 08:11:17 pm

Looks like they may have had some trouble with KickStarter, Oh well back to IGG. :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: comander13 on July 18, 2017, 08:27:21 pm

Long time lurker first time poster.

With these new ReBoost sleeves what happens if you try to charge the battery with the sleeve on?  I have a Logitech mouse that says rechargeable 1.2 volts only for the battery and it will charge the battery when plugged into a USB port on the computer.

Couldn’t find the answer and I am not familiar enough with electronics for this thought experiment.

As a side note I have no plans to buy the product.  I would just buy some more rechargeable batteries and get more use out of those.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: tchandler on July 18, 2017, 08:49:24 pm

Quote from: comander13 on July 18, 2017, 08:27:21 pm

With these new ReBoost sleeves what happens if you try to charge the battery with the sleeve on?  I have a Logitech mouse that says rechargeable 1.2 volts only for the battery and it will charge the battery when plugged into a USB port on the computer.

The battery would not charge, other than that it is hard to say what would happen.
Either the mouse would continue happily running off the usb power source, or the magic smoke is released. My bet is the mouse would keep working.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on July 20, 2017, 01:53:03 pm

Quote from: tchandler on July 18, 2017, 08:11:17 pm

Looks like they may have had some trouble with KickStarter, Oh well back to IGG. :-DD

Maybe kickstarter looked at some of this forum thread or looked at the many orders missing or not delivered, but in any case this is a fail/loss for batteroo, for what i have seen so far through the years kickstarter is better at filtering out crap and fake products, mostly, much more then seen on indiegogo so far

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on July 20, 2017, 10:09:07 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on July 20, 2017, 01:53:03 pm

Quote from: tchandler on July 18, 2017, 08:11:17 pm

Looks like they may have had some trouble with KickStarter, Oh well back to IGG. :-DD

Maybe kickstarter looked at some of this forum thread or looked at the many orders missing or not delivered, but in any case this is a fail/loss for batteroo, for what i have seen so far through the years kickstarter is better at filtering out crap and fake products, mostly, much more then seen on indiegogo so far

I know Dave was sceptical of Kickstarter booting them off but from what I've heard they are pretty active in routing out scams and copyright infringers etc as they actively try to keep their brand clean. IGG on the other hand don't care and will let you peddle any scam you like.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on July 27, 2017, 07:04:10 pm

Quote

Do you know that your rechargeable batteries are CONFIGURED at a lower voltage

:-DD

Seriously, they could make a bit of effort on the wording...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 28, 2017, 06:41:03 am

Quote from: djos on July 20, 2017, 10:09:07 pm

I know Dave was sceptical of Kickstarter booting them off but from what I've heard they are pretty active in routing out scams and copyright infringers etc as they actively try to keep their brand clean. IGG on the other hand don't care and will let you peddle any scam you like.

This is not a scam, it's just enthusiastic marketing. I can't see any grounds for KS to not allow their campaign?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 28, 2017, 06:52:06 am

Update:

Quote

Dear Batteroo Family,

First of all we wanted to thank you for your continued support and for helping us grow as a company. We certainly could not have done this without you.  The Batteroo team is excited to announce that we will be launching  the Batteroo ReBoost for rechargeable batteries on Indiegogo Monday, July 31st at 2:00 AM PST. By participating in our crowdfunding campaign, you’ll be the first customers to receive Batteroo ReBoost Smart-Sleeves and Smart-Shells.  As a token of our appreciation for your support, you’ll also be eligible for an exclusive secret perk available only for our Indiegogo backers. 
 
Don’t miss out on this opportunity to support this innovative new product and make your rechargeable batteries compatible with many more devices, while getting peak performance. We believe that we can make this project a huge success, but we can only do it with the help of our loyal customers and supporters. Please tell all your friends and family about our upcoming campaign and sign up here to be notified when we go live on Indiegogo. Stay tuned to receive a link to our secret perk and more news about the campaign, and don’t forget to follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Thank you once again for being a part of the Batteroo community!
 
Sincerly,
Batteroo Team

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 28, 2017, 06:58:16 am

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on July 20, 2017, 01:53:03 pm

Quote from: tchandler on July 18, 2017, 08:11:17 pm

Looks like they may have had some trouble with KickStarter, Oh well back to IGG. :-DD

Maybe kickstarter looked at some of this forum thread or looked at the many orders missing or not delivered

Could well be that.
It would not have been their inability to deliver, they have proven they can even for something as advanced as their own ASIC.
Maybe just too much bad press and complaints?

Quote

, but in any case this is a fail/loss for batteroo

Yes, they were shooting for the brass ring and missed  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on July 28, 2017, 07:53:53 pm

New Video out, still using that stupid graph that ends with 7,000 lumen, if they went to 0 or 1000 lumen we would see a long but dull runtime for the non-batteroo light, but again the bulb will have a shorter life with batteroo, but goddammit why are we still showing OLD CRAPPY PRODUCTS!!!, no one uses the BAD camera they shown, no one (unless they have been living under a rock for the last 10+ years) uses a incandescent torch/flashlight.

but.... yes you could get higher performance in products, that 0.3V (at full charge) can give you some extra wireless range (in badly made products) or keep a LED!!! lamp at peak brightness IF it is so 'cheaply' made that they opted to not use ANY of the 1000' of LED Flashlight controllers that you can pick up on ebay for no money (AS a consumer even)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsGcN1pJZRs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsGcN1pJZRs)

EDIT: forgot to say that they at least haven't bought likes and views on the last 9 videos

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on July 29, 2017, 04:58:05 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 28, 2017, 06:58:16 am

Could well be that.
It would not have been their inability to deliver, they have proven they can even for something as advanced as their own ASIC.

Did they really design it, or just outsourced it to a Chinese company? The specs are not impossible, but unusual, which is why there hasn't been an existing product which matches exactly; but there are companies willing to do it and put your name on it if you pay them enough.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on July 30, 2017, 01:46:30 am

Quote from: ej2095 on July 13, 2017, 08:14:04 am

Think i will go back to warming batteries up in the oven for a bit ;-0

Yes i used to do this as a child lol

Save me some time...
Does that work with LiPo cells?   >:D

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on July 30, 2017, 02:14:36 am

Yikes!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 30, 2017, 02:44:42 am

Quote from: amyk on July 29, 2017, 04:58:05 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 28, 2017, 06:58:16 am

Could well be that.
It would not have been their inability to deliver, they have proven they can even for something as advanced as their own ASIC.

Did they really design it, or just outsourced it to a Chinese company?

I've posted before on here how Dr Bob used to work with a guy who is now the head of converters at *insert company name* (I forget). He likely used his contact to get them to spin a custom job for them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: janekm on July 30, 2017, 06:16:56 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 30, 2017, 02:44:42 am

Quote from: amyk on July 29, 2017, 04:58:05 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on July 28, 2017, 06:58:16 am

Could well be that.
It would not have been their inability to deliver, they have proven they can even for something as advanced as their own ASIC.

Did they really design it, or just outsourced it to a Chinese company?

I've posted before on here how Dr Bob used to work with a guy who is now the head of converters at *insert company name* (I forget). He likely used his contact to get them to spin a custom job for them.

But, *insert company name* (Exar I think think it was?) would have put their markings on the die, typically, and there were no third company markings to be seen... Also typically a big company like Exar would prefer to do a custom variant rather than a fully custom IC for just one risky startup customer.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on July 30, 2017, 07:11:43 am

Exar doesn't have its own foundry, so they could have just done a design for Batteroo. Batteroo might be ordering chips from the foundry themselves.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: firewalker on July 30, 2017, 10:25:09 am

Was the chip decupped?

Alexander.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 30, 2017, 10:26:52 am

Quote from: janekm on July 30, 2017, 06:16:56 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 30, 2017, 02:44:42 am

I've posted before on here how Dr Bob used to work with a guy who is now the head of converters at *insert company name* (I forget). He likely used his contact to get them to spin a custom job for them.

But, *insert company name* (Exar I think think it was?) would have put their markings on the die, typically, and there were no third company markings to be seen... Also typically a big company like Exar would prefer to do a custom variant rather than a fully custom IC for just one risky startup customer.

But if you are paying Exar or anyone else to do a custom part for you, why would they put their name on the die? If I did that then I'd be telling them not to put anything on it.
It's the equivalent of the annoying habit of PCB manufactures putting their name on your PCB.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 30, 2017, 10:28:30 am

Quote from: firewalker on July 30, 2017, 10:25:09 am

Was the chip decupped?

Yes
https://zeptobars.com/en/read/BTR004K-Batteriser-Batteroo-switched-capacitor-boost-dcdc

(https://s.zeptobars.com/batteriser-btr004k.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on July 30, 2017, 12:28:41 pm

Indiegogo preview page is up: https://www.indiegogo.com/project/preview/2f25386e#/ (https://www.indiegogo.com/project/preview/2f25386e#/)
Enjoy...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on July 30, 2017, 01:23:29 pm

Still doing it....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Domagoj T on July 30, 2017, 05:54:20 pm

Got this a few hours ago:

Quote

Dear Batteroo Supporters,
 
We’re only 1 day away from the start of the Batteroo ReBoost crowdfunding campaign!  This Monday at 2:00 AM PST, the Batteroo ReBoost pre-sale will be live on Indiegogo. Batteroo ReBoost brings together the peak performance of disposable batteries with the reusability and sustainability of rechargeable batteries. With the help of ReBoost, you can use rechargeable batteries in all of your battery operated devices. Click here (https://www.indiegogo.com/project/preview/2f25386e#/) for our Launch Preview.
 
To thank all our valuable backers for your continued support, we are going to provide a link to our "Secret Community Perk" only visible to our supporters once the campaign begins. Don’t forget to sign up here (https://www.batterooreboost.com) to be notified when our campaign goes live and be eligible for our Batteroo Community Special Perk! We will send an email out with the link once it is available so stay tuned! Contributions in the first 48 hours are a crucial for the success of our campaign, so please come and show your support by purchasing   Batteroo ReBoost, and tell all your friends!
.
We're excited to be releasing these innovative products and can’t wait to share more news about our  Indiegogo campaign. Please follow us on social media and get all the latest updates (Facebook, twitter, Instagram). Thank you once again for supporting Batteroo.
 
Sincerely,
The Batteroo Team

The links in the email are tracked  :-- (I cleaned them up for you guys, though).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on July 30, 2017, 08:22:06 pm

I don't see this attracting anything like the amount of interest that their previous campaign did. If someone claims to have a device that increases battery life by 8x, everyone pays attention but; "Batteroo ReBoost: Make rechargeables work anywhere" won't mean anything to most people. :--

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on July 31, 2017, 03:39:37 am

I'm still waiting anxiously for all those media outlets that were proclaiming the Batteriser to be the best thing since sliced bread, savior to all cells in every device, every toy for every girl and boy to come out and show us just how well they really work! 

You know, since they put it on my local news an all, saying how it was going to be a game changing device!  Where is all the followup?  Show me just how good it is!  :)

...makes mental note to try to find time to call the local TV station and speak to some managers...  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 31, 2017, 07:49:28 am

Now we know their sales figures:

Over $500k in sales.
Given that $395k came from the IGG campaign, they have only been able to achieve an extra $100k in sales. It's a flop.
You can't sustain the wages of all the top people they have with only $500k in sales.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 31, 2017, 07:51:32 am

Now we know who the ASIC designer is:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 31, 2017, 07:56:17 am

Quote

How will ReBoost SmartSleeves allow my devices to perform better?

The voltage level provided by a rechargeable battery is around 1.2v as opposed to 1.5v in disposable batteries. Many devices’ performance is related to the voltage level of the battery. Take a flashlight or a laser pointer as an example -- the intensity of the light or the laser is proportional to the level of voltage from the battery. A disposable battery starts at 1.5v and has a brighter light than those of a rechargeable. Batteroo ReBoost would boost the voltage of the rechargeable to that of a disposable battery and will provide superior performance right from the get go. However, Batteroo ReBoost doesn’t stop there. Although disposable batteries usually start up at 1.5v, this voltage drops pretty rapidly to 1.2v and below after only a short amount of time, limiting the performance potential of your device. To that point, the rechargeables stay at 1.2v much longer than disposables. Batteroo ReBoost combines the best of both worlds by enabling the battery to start at the high performance of disposables, while maintaining this optimal performance (level of brightness for flashlights), for the entire time that the rechargeable has power above its safe level. Ultimately, Batteroo ReBoost brings together the peak performance of disposables with the reusability of rechargeables for a more cost effective and environmentally conscious solution.

Their primary example is still a bulb based flashlight  :palm:
Not only are they almost completely obsolete, but they fail to explain that their wizz-bang sleeve will drastically shorten the life of the bulb.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on July 31, 2017, 08:14:51 am

I probably need to read the fine print somewhere again but wouldn't the derived income from the IGG campaign be technically classed as received donations as opposed to sales ?, anyway I still suspect half the backers were either dodgy aliases, associates or family members which hardly count for much in the scheme of things.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amspire on July 31, 2017, 08:50:04 am

Lots of other unexplained areas. Say you have a really big torch with 4 D cells. We have already worked out that assuming 100% efficiency, the Batteroo ReBoost D cell with three 2 AH NiMH batteries will have much less available energy than a decent 10 AH to 14 AH NiMH D cell without Batteroo.

But then when you need to charge the batteries, you can easily fit 4 D cells into many chargers. Now you have to charge 12 AA cells instead along with all the loading and unloading of the D cell ReBoost
 devices . I am glad they have solved the convenience problem!  |O

And they have an AA Reboost device that can house a single AAA cell with under half the energy of the original AA cell. What? Is there a competition for the Dumbest Device of the Decade?

It is rather like discovering a way to make a Porsche 911 behave almost as good as a VW beetle.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on July 31, 2017, 10:25:36 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on July 31, 2017, 08:14:51 am

I probably need to read the fine print somewhere again but wouldn't the derived income from the IGG campaign be technically classed as received donations as opposed to sales ?

Not when it comes to marketing!
They highlighted and bolded that number (probably to impress future investors) so you can bet your bottom dollar they will include every single sale made including the IGG campaign.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: hermit on July 31, 2017, 11:24:43 am

Quote from: Domagoj T on July 30, 2017, 05:54:20 pm

Quote

With the help of ReBoost, you can use rechargeable batteries in all of your battery operated devices.

Geez.  I throw rechargeable batteries into almost anything.  I didn't know I needed their product to use them.  What a rip selling batteries that need another product to work.

http://www.rechargebatteryguide.com/batteries/i-require-1-5v-battery-but-rechargeable-batteries-are-1-2v (http://www.rechargebatteryguide.com/batteries/i-require-1-5v-battery-but-rechargeable-batteries-are-1-2v)

I guess there are some products, if they use 4 or more batteries, might not work but most modern stuff takes the rechargeable battery voltage into account.  Who knew?  Well, other than the ReBoost folks....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 01, 2017, 10:20:31 am

Someone plonked down $1k?  :wtf:

(http://i.imgur.com/EVMZ4Bb.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 01, 2017, 10:22:06 am

OMG!  :-DD

(http://i.imgur.com/xea0qkJ.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: amyk on August 01, 2017, 10:45:24 am

Quote from: EEVblog on July 31, 2017, 07:49:28 am

Now we know their sales figures:

Over $500k in sales.
Given that $395k came from the IGG campaign, they have only been able to achieve an extra $100k in sales. It's a flop.
You can't sustain the wages of all the top people they have with only $500k in sales.

"since it's recent introduction"? Apparently they can't hire a copyeditor either. :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on August 01, 2017, 11:32:33 am

(http://i.imgur.com/EVMZ4Bb.png)

Bizarre, he doesn't know what he's bought but claims to have saved $550 :wtf:.

But, according the list of backers he only paid $60.

Is he the Roohparvar's plastic surgeon?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 01, 2017, 12:17:49 pm

Quote from: Blocco on August 01, 2017, 11:32:33 am

(http://i.imgur.com/EVMZ4Bb.png)

Bizarre, he doesn't know what he's bought but claims to have saved $550 :wtf:.

But, according the list of backers he only paid $60.

Is he the Roohparvar's plastic surgeon?

Oops, I read that wrong, he might have plonked down $1k, but didn't.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on August 01, 2017, 12:26:15 pm

Quote

Oops, I read that wrong, he might have plonked down $1k, but didn't.

Me too. However, according to the backers list; jasonbmoss has actually paid $1,005

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 01, 2017, 01:49:09 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 01, 2017, 10:22:06 am

OMG!  :-DD

(http://i.imgur.com/xea0qkJ.png)

Some things never change.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MLXXXp on August 02, 2017, 12:07:08 am

Who wants to bet that they will post an update soon?, saying something like:

"Good news everyone! We've decided to extend the availability of the Early Bird Complete Product beyond the first 48 hours."...  ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on August 02, 2017, 02:46:36 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 01, 2017, 10:22:06 am

OMG!  :-DD

(http://i.imgur.com/xea0qkJ.png)

That is a classic.

Almost worth framing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SL4P on August 02, 2017, 03:59:29 am

Not suggesting any commercial relationship, but if anyone else wants to look around, Richard Tholen MD in Minnesota, is also into the VC/Angel business.
I wonder...?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: cavac on August 03, 2017, 12:09:18 pm

Woohoo! Next law suite will come from Sanyo/Panasonic for unauthorized use of the Eneloop brand in their marketing!

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: frozenfrogz on August 03, 2017, 07:38:46 pm

Quote from: cavac on August 03, 2017, 12:09:18 pm

Woohoo! Next law suite will come from Sanyo/Panasonic for unauthorized use of the Eneloop brand in their marketing!

Everyone: Drop the Eneloop / Panasonic customer service a line, asking why they endorse such a crappy product since Eneloop was affiliated with quality cells at decent prices, but now no one can be sure about the companies degree of expertise anymore.
 :box:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ysjoelfir on August 03, 2017, 11:14:08 pm

Done. Let's see if they are in any way interested in that.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on August 04, 2017, 09:58:14 am

https://www.panasonic.com/global/consumer/battery/eneloop/technologies.html (https://www.panasonic.com/global/consumer/battery/eneloop/technologies.html)

Quote

What’s the difference between 1.5 V and 1.2 V?
answer

1.5 V is the nominal voltage for dry batteries, and nickel-metal hydride batteries (such as eneloop) have a nominal voltage of 1.2 V. Dry batteries have a slightly higher voltage than the actual working voltage required by the appliance. Though the nickel-metal hydride battery is 1.2 V, nickel-metal hydride batteries are able to provide similar performance to standard dry batteries. Basically, almost all appliances that require a dry battery can also use Ni-MH battery. Please be aware, though, of exceptional cases where only dry batteries can be used.

Look at Eneloops graphs :) Their 1.2V is closer from 1.5 than from 1.0V. They also cherrypick the 500mA current for the AA where the Alkaline is over the top, where the Eneloop is far from the max current. At 100-200mA discharge, the Alkaline wins with 3Ah : http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e91.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e91.pdf)

We are observers in the middle of a marketing battle beween goliath and and a very loud cockroach here :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: HKJ on August 04, 2017, 01:18:16 pm

Quote from: f4eru on August 04, 2017, 09:58:14 am

At 100-200mA discharge, the Alkaline wins with 3Ah : http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e91.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/e91.pdf)

The current must be below 100mA for Alkaline to win. You can compare a couple of different battery chemistries here:
(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/BatteryAA/data/AA%20batteries%20at%200.1A.png)

For other currents see: http://lygte-info.dk/info/ComparisonOfAABatteryChemistry%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/info/ComparisonOfAABatteryChemistry%20UK.html)
For comparing even more batteries see: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/CommonAAcomparator.php (http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/CommonAAcomparator.php)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 06, 2017, 10:15:20 am

These comments look totally legit  ::)

(http://i.imgur.com/q2zFQrE.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Blocco on August 06, 2017, 12:43:21 pm

Yes, not shills at all. :clap:


Not only that but the "norouzian family" have just, apparently, bought $1500 worth of this nonsense.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: daveake on August 07, 2017, 10:01:54 pm

From Vahid's LinkedIn ....

(http://i.imgur.com/4HzGqBb.png)

Yup, deffo not a shill  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: hermit on August 08, 2017, 02:04:49 am

Forgive me for not reading all 358 pages.  Just wondering how this turned out.

"With 280,000 subscribers to the EEVblog YouTube channel, Batteroo is none too pleased at the negative attention, and told Fairfax Media its legal team was "looking at" potential action against Jones."

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/batteriser-battery-life-extender-scam-or-saviour-20150915-gjmrql.html (http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/batteriser-battery-life-extender-scam-or-saviour-20150915-gjmrql.html)


"On the EEVblog (first video from above) after a few critical reviews of the Batteriser, with very indepth discusion and technical explanation, the Batteriser people seem to be buying DISLIKES on YouTube in an effort to discredit the EEVblog."

http://gizmodo.com/dont-buy-the-bullshit-this-indiegogo-campaign-is-sellin-1732402971 (http://gizmodo.com/dont-buy-the-bullshit-this-indiegogo-campaign-is-sellin-1732402971)

Funny how fact and truth is hard to  suppress now days.  Damned internet.

 We should start calling him Big Bad Dave.  One scary dude.  Watch his videos and tell me he doesn't seem a bit maniacal. :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Halcyon on August 08, 2017, 02:19:34 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 06, 2017, 10:15:20 am

These comments look totally legit  ::)

To be fair, the fake commenter was right about one thing, it will change the battery industry (albeit ever so slightly)... it'll ensure that "big battery" will sell more product because uneducated or unsuspecting people are using the batteriser and chewing through more batteries than they would without the sleeve.

Batteriser -- Helping boost big battery's profits... since 2015.   :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 08, 2017, 11:33:41 pm

Update:

Quote

Dear Friends,
We have some great news to share with all of our supporters! Arrow, a prestigious global $23B technology company and partner of IBM, has diligently reviewed the Batteroo ReBoost product design and campaign and verified that it is feasible for manufacturing. We are now officially arrow certified!
The good news doesn’t stop there. As many of you already know, we have launched the Batteroo ReBoost Indiegogo campaign. Batteroo ReBoost is a revolutionary new product that makes rechargeable batteries compatible with all of your devices. We are just over one week into the Batteroo ReBoost Indiegogo campaign, and have already received around 70%of our goal for the month!
We want to thank those of you who have supported us during this first exciting week! To encourage those who may not have gotten around to supporting us, or even those who have and want more, we have created a special deal, just for you:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/2167828/x/17008525?secret_perk_token=07a22e18 (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/2167828/x/17008525?secret_perk_token=07a22e18)
We want to make this project a huge success and go above and beyond our campaign goal, but we need your help! Thank you.
Click here to support us. 
https://igg.me/at/batterooreboost (https://igg.me/at/batterooreboost)

But there's more! Since we started, we have been getting a lot of press coverage from great organizations such as prnewswire, Thestreet, bizjournals, elektormagazine, Gadgetsin, broadwayworld and many others. You can see an example of one of the articles below.
https://www.thestreet.com/story/14258856/1/batteroo-brings-revolutionary-technology-to-the-rechargeable-battery-market-with-batteroo-reboost.html (https://www.thestreet.com/story/14258856/1/batteroo-brings-revolutionary-technology-to-the-rechargeable-battery-market-with-batteroo-reboost.html)
 
Sincerely,
The Batteroo Team

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: drussell on August 09, 2017, 12:51:55 am

Oh, my!

 :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Delta on August 09, 2017, 02:15:35 am

Quote

Most devices aren't designed to work with rechargeable batteries; using them together damages the battery, and can even damage the device.

Ye gads!  I never knew!  I thought that there was perhaps a single digit percentage of (mainly old) devices that wouldn't work well with rechargeables, but now I know the truth! 

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: hermit on August 09, 2017, 02:33:03 am

20X brighter laser pointer?  Weapons grade?

Indiegogo says making false claims aren't allowed.  I'd bet a couple dozen links to test results would get them to shut this down.  Right?   ::)

And their graphs at the bottom?  I'd love to see the data they used for those.  Of course when marketing does the research.....

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Scottjd on August 09, 2017, 03:08:02 am

Quote from: Delta on August 09, 2017, 02:15:35 am

Quote

Most devices aren't designed to work with rechargeable batteries; using them together damages the battery, and can even damage the device.

Ye gads!  I never knew!  I thought that there was perhaps a single digit percentage of (mainly old) devices that wouldn't work well with rechargeables, but now I know the truth!

I just love how they show leaking alkaline batteries when they say that in the video.
I'm going to throw out all 40 of my Eneloop batteries, now I know the truth also and they must be talking about Eneloop batteries since they show them in the video. I didn't know these are the rechargeable stuff that damage things.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on August 09, 2017, 04:32:48 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 08, 2017, 11:33:41 pm

Update:

Quote

.... and verified that it is feasible for manufacturing.

As if there was any doubt a device could be made.  We will even give it credit for being able to do something.

There are, really, only two questions: Whether that "something" is worth doing - and - whether it will live up to the Marketing.

Quote

Quote

We are now officially arrow certified!

Seems a shame how they approached a $23B company - and only got certified by a pointy stick with feathers on the end.

Sometimes a capital letter changes the whole meaning.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ysjoelfir on August 09, 2017, 08:59:38 am

Quote from: frozenfrogz on August 03, 2017, 07:38:46 pm

Quote from: cavac on August 03, 2017, 12:09:18 pm

Woohoo! Next law suite will come from Sanyo/Panasonic for unauthorized use of the Eneloop brand in their marketing!

Everyone: Drop the Eneloop / Panasonic customer service a line, asking why they endorse such a crappy product since Eneloop was affiliated with quality cells at decent prices, but now no one can be sure about the companies degree of expertise anymore.
 :box:

Sadly, Big NiMh doesn't give a poop about you small customer. I wrote them two times, didn't get any answer from their "24 h support".

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Scottjd on August 09, 2017, 09:28:00 am

Quote from: Ysjoelfir on August 09, 2017, 08:59:38 am

Quote from: frozenfrogz on August 03, 2017, 07:38:46 pm

Quote from: cavac on August 03, 2017, 12:09:18 pm

Woohoo! Next law suite will come from Sanyo/Panasonic for unauthorized use of the Eneloop brand in their marketing!

Everyone: Drop the Eneloop / Panasonic customer service a line, asking why they endorse such a crappy product since Eneloop was affiliated with quality cells at decent prices, but now no one can be sure about the companies degree of expertise anymore.
 :box:

Sadly, Big NiMh doesn't give a poop about you small customer. I wrote them two times, didn't get any answer from their "24 h support".

It might not be that they don't care about the small customer, but they don't care about NiMH anymore.
Is NiMH the future, no. When is the last time you bought something that takes batteries and didn't come with a rechargeable Li-Ion or Li-Po mix type of battery already installed. Unless it's a kids toy, or a remote control for something like a TV that doesn't need new batteries but once a year then most things already come with rechargeable batteries. And they are not NiMH batteries anymore.
The more I think about it, the more I don't think Eneloop will care if some other company tries to make claims to improve a rechargeable technology that's on its way out.
In fact the only thing in the house besides remotes taking AA batteries is smoke detectors with 9V and my multimeters. But then again I don't have kids living in higher house anymore.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 09, 2017, 10:43:40 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 08, 2017, 11:33:41 pm

Update:

Quote

we have been getting a lot of press coverage from great organizations such as...   elektormagazine

He obviously doesn't speak German, because their article wasn't exactly singing praise for them or their device:
https://www.elektormagazine.de/news/batteroo-reboost-akku-batterie-wandler (https://www.elektormagazine.de/news/batteroo-reboost-akku-batterie-wandler)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: BradC on August 09, 2017, 12:20:22 pm

Quote from: Delta on August 09, 2017, 02:15:35 am

Quote

Most devices aren't designed to work with rechargeable batteries; using them together damages the battery, and can even damage the device.

Ye gads!  I never knew!  I thought that there was perhaps a single digit percentage of (mainly old) devices that wouldn't work well with rechargeables, but now I know the truth!

I have at least 2 brand new devices in the house that are crap with nimh and only perform properly with alkalines. That drives me nuts, but it is what it is and I can't return them so these sleeves would actually serve me a useful purpose.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ysjoelfir on August 09, 2017, 01:17:39 pm

Quote from: McBryce on August 09, 2017, 10:43:40 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 08, 2017, 11:33:41 pm

Update:

Quote

we have been getting a lot of press coverage from great organizations such as...   elektormagazine

He obviously doesn't speak German, because their article wasn't exactly singing praise for them or their device:
https://www.elektormagazine.de/news/batteroo-reboost-akku-batterie-wandler (https://www.elektormagazine.de/news/batteroo-reboost-akku-batterie-wandler)

McBryce.

BUT they don't look at it too critical either. I find it rather sad what has became of elektor...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 09, 2017, 07:08:15 pm

Quote from: Ysjoelfir on August 09, 2017, 01:17:39 pm

Quote from: McBryce on August 09, 2017, 10:43:40 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 08, 2017, 11:33:41 pm

Update:

Quote

we have been getting a lot of press coverage from great organizations such as...   elektormagazine

He obviously doesn't speak German, because their article wasn't exactly singing praise for them or their device:
https://www.elektormagazine.de/news/batteroo-reboost-akku-batterie-wandler (https://www.elektormagazine.de/news/batteroo-reboost-akku-batterie-wandler)

McBryce.

BUT they don't look at it too critical either. I find it rather sad what has became of elektor...

Fully agree. Elektor is a disgrace compared to what it once was.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: SNGLinks on August 09, 2017, 10:36:12 pm

I hated it when elector stopped using TUN and TUP etc.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Marcel_X on August 10, 2017, 01:17:51 pm

Quote from: McBryce on August 09, 2017, 10:43:40 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 08, 2017, 11:33:41 pm

Update:

Quote

we have been getting a lot of press coverage from great organizations such as...   elektormagazine

He obviously doesn't speak German, because their article wasn't exactly singing praise for them or their device:
https://www.elektormagazine.de/news/batteroo-reboost-akku-batterie-wandler (https://www.elektormagazine.de/news/batteroo-reboost-akku-batterie-wandler)

McBryce.

And he obviously doesn't speak English either :-)
https://www.elektormagazine.com/news/batteroo-reboost-gives-a-ni-mh-cell-a-voltage-hike (https://www.elektormagazine.com/news/batteroo-reboost-gives-a-ni-mh-cell-a-voltage-hike)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: frozenfrogz on August 10, 2017, 02:37:41 pm

Quote from: Marcel_X on August 10, 2017, 01:17:51 pm

https://www.elektormagazine.com/news/batteroo-reboost-gives-a-ni-mh-cell-a-voltage-hike (https://www.elektormagazine.com/news/batteroo-reboost-gives-a-ni-mh-cell-a-voltage-hike)

Elektor calls it an "interesting project" signaled red within the second paragraph. In todays day and age that is all the information 80% of the people opening the article will remember. Since Elektor is from my home town Aachen and my father used to collect all their magazines in the 70s/80s, I personally feel at least a little insulted by that article.
Reviews of technical stuff should always be more on the scientific and critical side in my opinion.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: guido on August 10, 2017, 10:35:48 pm

Elektor is Dutch (Elektuur). Based in the south of the country. There seems to be a branch in Aachen, but i cannot imagine it is a big operation. Certainly in the past, most development was in NL. They used to be in Beek, i visited them a few times long ago to collect some bare pcb's. Don't read it anymore these days.

Lol, they moved again leaving the castle in Limbricht. Going to Aachen. So you are right, but only since June this year :P

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cerebus on August 11, 2017, 01:30:03 am

Quote from: guido on August 10, 2017, 10:35:48 pm

Elektor is Dutch (Elektuur). Based in the south of the country. There seems to be a branch in Aachen, but i cannot imagine it is a big operation. Certainly in the past, most development was in NL. They used to be in Beek, i visited them a few times long ago to collect some bare pcb's. Don't read it anymore these days.

Lol, they moved again leaving the castle in Limbricht. Going to Aachen. So you are right, but only since June this year :P

Yah, when Elektor was a significant force in electronics publishing they were steadfastly Dutch. I had some correspondence with them back in the 80's and that was all conducted with the Netherlands.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: frozenfrogz on August 11, 2017, 08:18:30 am

Are we talking about the same Elektor magazine? Elektor-Verlag GmbH has been residing in Aachen since 1970 (first years in Gangelt some km away from Aachen). They have been publishing the german issue ever since.

Edit: As it seems Elektor-Verlag is a 100% daughter company of Elektor International Media (NL). So that is where the confusion comes from xD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on August 11, 2017, 08:28:36 am

The "Mother company" is Elektor International Media and was founded in the Netherlands in 1960. Elektor Verlag GmbH was set up in Germany in 1970 for the German language version. The first english versions didn't come until 1975.
But the most important milestone for me came around 2010 when it started going rapidly downhill in both content and quality and they seem to find new ways of getting worse every year.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: frozenfrogz on August 11, 2017, 09:07:22 am

OT: Need to dig up the old Elektor issues from my dads attic. I can remember a lot of synth related schematics, vocoders and other modular effects...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on August 11, 2017, 11:56:00 am

Hi group,

Some more dodgy maths from the ReBoost Indiegogo campaign.

They claim that they are 78% funded with 20 days to go:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=340578;image)

But, if I add up all the perks that they have sold, August 11th. 2017:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=340580;image)

I only get $10,290.00  :-//

There are a total of 161 perks, but there are supposed to be 357 backers, some are private.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=340582;image)

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FloFo on August 11, 2017, 02:59:33 pm

I never used Indigogo, only kickstarter, but i see a few possibilities for these numbers to be real:
- IGG seems to have no 1$-Tier, but you seem to be able to pledge any amount without chosing a reward
- possibly shipping cost (not included in your numbers) are counted towards the funding goal
- maybe the possibility to pay a higher amount than necessary for your tier (possible with kickstarter, not sure for IGG)

Still leaves me wondering why almost 200 backers pledge without chosing a tier. Maybe to get access to backer-only-updates, being able to comment and get notifications about the project (at least this are reasens why you would back 1$ on kickstarter).

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on August 11, 2017, 03:30:10 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on August 11, 2017, 11:56:00 am

They claim that they are 78% funded with 20 days to go:

I only get $10,290.00  :-//

% ages and figures have never been batteroo's strong points, might as well just round it up to 800%.  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: frozenfrogz on August 11, 2017, 03:31:37 pm

You would need to look into the list of backers (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-reboost-make-rechargeables-work-anywhere-technology#/backers) to see the actual amount pledged. However, you have the option to not post the amount and keep that »private«.
You are able to pledge any amount you like.
Usual practice would be to have friends of you "invest" into your idea to push the goal. This is not illegal to the terms of Indiegogo or any other platform since these get their share on the amount of money pledged in total. You can even pledge on your own campaign. If you chip in from your own pocket that is very welcome on behalf of the crowdfunding platform...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on August 12, 2017, 01:41:41 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on August 11, 2017, 11:56:00 am

There are a total of 161 perks, but there are supposed to be 357 backers, some are private.

IGG allow creators to hide pledge levels (e.g. early bird once all taken) and also have secret perks (see link in Daves earlier post).
This explains the total amount and backer numbers not matching, but unfortunately means you can't see all the perk quantites like on KS, and it makes it very difficult to check campaigns for dodgy pledge behaviour.  If the backer number was closer to your calculated total, then that would have definitely indicated some suspiciously large pledges.
IGG do show a little more info on individual backers and their pledge amounts, except when private option is selected.
KS used to show the full backer list if you kept clicking for more (without amounts), but now they only show a community summary (by country/city) and a small sample.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on August 12, 2017, 05:29:22 pm

Has someone an idea about the standby-time difference?

Products often go to nearly 0W in standby, the batteriser can't know the device is in standby, and cannot stop boosting and wasting energy.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 14, 2017, 09:21:37 pm

Getting desperate, now offering a referral program!

Quote

posted by Bob Roohparvar
Aug 14, 2017 • 1:57PM PDT
Hello Everyone!
We are excited to announce our new Referral Program for ReBoost! See the current campaign to participate:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-reb... (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-reb...)
Part 1. Refer 1 friend and get a FREE 4 pack of Batteroo AA SmartSleeve from our original campaign!
Now you’ll get maximum rewards for sharing the Batteroo Indiegogo campaign with your friends and family! For every 1 referral who buys Batteroo Reboost, you will get one free 4 pack of AA Batteroo Boost! That's right Boost! Our original micro-thin sleeve for use with alkaline batteries that we successfully fundraised during our last Indiegogo campaign!

There’s no limit: the more referrals you give, the more free Batteroo Boosts you will get!
Here’s how to participate:
1.  Login to your indiegogo account
2.  Click the “Link” icon on the Batteroo indiegogo page

3.  Paste that link in your e-mails to friends, and on any social media.
That’s it! The link you create is unique and will allow us to ID all your referrals.

To clarify, in order for your referral to count, the person who uses your link needs to purchase a perk, so make sure your friends buy something!

Part 2. It's a contest! If your friends contribute over certain monetary amounts, you win prizes!


You will still get a 4 pack of Batteroo Boosts for each person you refer who buys something, but if your referrals' contributions exceeds a level's threshold, you will receive those prizes as well!*
*levels don't stack, you will only receive one contribution level's prizes.

How to keep track of your Referral Program's progress:
1. Log into your Indiegogo account.
2. Click on your user name beside the search box at the top right of the page.
3. Select the “My Profile” option.
4. Click on the tab that says “Referrals” for the latest totals of referrals and contributions.
5. See your current total under "Funds Contributed".

*Indiegogo is not able to track referrals made outside of this method. If you tell your friends by word of mouth or send a link without your unique referral ID, that share will NOT be counted in your referrals on Indiegogo.
*Note that the referral must immediately make a contribution after clicking on your link. If they visit other pages or websites or leave and come back to the campaign later to contribute, their contribution will not be counted as a referral from you.
That's all there is to it! Comment if you have any questions. Good luck everyone! Get sharing!
Regards,
Your Batteroo Team

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: hermit on August 15, 2017, 02:42:57 am

Are you trying to get us to sign up so you can get some free stuff? :o

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on August 15, 2017, 08:14:07 am

Quote from: EEVblog on August 14, 2017, 09:21:37 pm

Getting desperate, now offering a referral program!

I agree a little desperate. If you compare the snapshots I took four days ago.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=341876;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=341878;image)

Just $300.00 in the last four days.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=341880;image)



No more 'private' amounts in the last few days.

Doesn't really pass the sniff test  :-//

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MLXXXp on August 15, 2017, 03:45:34 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 14, 2017, 09:21:37 pm

Getting desperate, now offering a referral program!

My first thought was that they probably have a ton of the original Batteroo Boosts collecting dust in a warehouse somewhere due to lack of sales. This promotion gives them a chance to both dump these Boosts that are wasting space and increase pledges for the new campaign at the same time.

Are there any tax incentives for reducing inventory by giving it away for free like this?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 15, 2017, 05:27:12 pm

Quote from: MLXXXp on August 15, 2017, 03:45:34 pm

My first thought was that they probably have a ton of the original Batteroo Boosts collecting dust in a warehouse somewhere due to lack of sales.

You'd think they'd send them to the original IGG backers who haven't received theirs yet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 15, 2017, 11:57:03 pm

It doesn't seem to be gaining much traction.
And they have already tried several marketing things to try and pep it up.
It's going to tank  :-DD
They of course were expecting it to make half a million or a million dollars to make it look like a success to investors. They had no intention of just collecting $30k and being happy, or even $100k, that's chump chance when the investors have put in $750k+
Oops.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-reboost-make-rechargeables-work-anywhere-technology?secret_perk_token=07a22e18#/backers (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-reboost-make-rechargeables-work-anywhere-technology?secret_perk_token=07a22e18#/backers)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on August 17, 2017, 06:37:14 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 15, 2017, 11:57:03 pm

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-reboost-make-rechargeables-work-anywhere-technology?secret_perk_token=07a22e18#/backers (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-reboost-make-rechargeables-work-anywhere-technology?secret_perk_token=07a22e18#/backers)

I just see 2 traffic cones.

EDITY: I get the page today, rather than 2 orange traffic cones, maybe it was their version of a 502 or something.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on August 17, 2017, 08:02:29 pm

Hi,

I found this website, www.backerkit.com (http://www.backerkit.com), that tracks activity on crowdfunded websites like Indiegogo and Kickstarter.

Here is the link to the Batteroo reBoost project:

https://www.backerkit.com/projects/batteroo-reboost-make-rechargeables-work-anywhere-technology (https://www.backerkit.com/projects/batteroo-reboost-make-rechargeables-work-anywhere-technology)

These are the main graphs from today:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=342526;image)


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=342528;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=342530;image)

I am sure that Batteroo chose a relatively small target of $30K in the hope that would blew the target out of the water.

Telling investors that Indiegogo campaign met its goal of $30K after a 30day campaign, is not a very good story.

I also believe that this product has a smaller addressable market, than the first product, alkaline batteries.

I don't know how many people bother with rechargeable batteries.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on August 17, 2017, 09:19:42 pm

The reality is this "product" has no market, real or snake oil.

Everyone knows that virtually every device on earth works fine with rechargeable batteries so the scam doesn't work.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on August 18, 2017, 02:47:18 am

Quote from: StillTrying on August 17, 2017, 06:37:14 pm

Quote from: EEVblog on August 15, 2017, 11:57:03 pm

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-reboost-make-rechargeables-work-anywhere-technology?secret_perk_token=07a22e18#/backers (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-reboost-make-rechargeables-work-anywhere-technology?secret_perk_token=07a22e18#/backers)

I just see 2 traffic cones.

This is what I see (the interesting part of the page)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=342636;image)


Not so secret after all...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on August 18, 2017, 03:37:44 am

Quote from: djos on August 17, 2017, 09:19:42 pm

The reality is this "product" has no market, real or snake oil.
Everyone knows that virtually every device on earth works fine with rechargeable batteries so the scam doesn't work.

Pretty much. No surprises this one has done a lot worse than the previous one, it doesn't have the same "save the world" vibe and outrageous "800%" claims, and supposed surprising information that there is still energy left in dead batteries. People went "wow" at all that.
No nearly the same "wow" factor with the new campaign, they will be lucky to reach their target.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Domagoj T on August 24, 2017, 06:39:57 am

Something to start your day with a chuckle.

Quote

Hello Batteroo Supporters,
 
We are on the last leg of our campaign, only 7 days left! Due to popular demand, we have some new offerings available…
 
WE ARE NOW OFFERING RECHARGEABLE BATTERIES AND RECHARGEABLE BATTERY CHARGERS! We are offering high capacity AA and AAA rechargeable batteries and our battery charger can recharge up to 8 batteries at once!
 
Pairing ReBoosts with rechargeable batteries, what could be a better gift? With these high quality batteries and battery chargers that can charge so many at once, these products would be so useful for the people in your life who go through tons of batteries: new parents whose children use lots of battery powered toys, gaming teenagers who get frustrated at their console controllers dying so quickly, photography enthusiasts who need their nice cameras to last as long as possible, and so many others! Anyone who uses batteries could benefit from having Batteroo ReBoosts and rechargeable batteries in their life.
 
Here are our new perks:
 
1.    Basic Battery+Charger Bundle: $23 perk that includes 1x 4 pack of AA and 1x 4 pack of AAA rechargeable batteries, and 1x battery charger.
 
2.    EB Complete Battery+Charger Bundle: $50 perk that includes 3x 4 packs of AA and 3x 4 packs of AAA rechargeable batteries, and 1x battery charger.

 
Don't wait, our campaign is almost over! Check out the new perks here and don't miss out on your chance to get these great discount prices!
 
https://igg.me/at/batterooreboost/x/ (https://igg.me/at/batterooreboost/x/)

Regards,
The Batteroo Team

(http://i.imgur.com/l7f60bu.png)

I guess we now know who's got ties with The Big Battery.
Unfortunately, it doesn't say what brand and model of the rechargeables they offer, but I doubt they offer Eneloops (that's the ones they show in their unrelated pictures), since the retail price for those would be close to $100.
However, if they are offering Eneloops, it is a good opportunity for those that need some.
All that being said, if they ship anything other then Eneloops, they might get into additional trouble since, based on other images, somebody could reasonably get the impression that they offer those, and get thoroughly disappointed once they receive some crappy Banggood grade cells.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on August 24, 2017, 07:11:47 am

This is like Goodyear selling cars to go with their tyres.

Next thing you know, they will be selling torches to go with the batteries......

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Mr.B on August 24, 2017, 07:31:08 am

Quote from: Brumby on August 24, 2017, 07:11:47 am

Next thing you know, they will be selling torches to go with the batteries......

Yeah...  But not constant current LED torches. They prefer to promote lame old incandescent ones.
$0.30 from Banggood...  :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Zbig on August 24, 2017, 11:58:37 am

Gaming console controllers running on AA's... right :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fgrir on August 24, 2017, 02:32:55 pm

Actually...

Quote

When replacing the batteries in your Xbox One Wireless Controller, use only AA batteries that have an “LR6” designation (alkaline batteries)...
For the best performance, rechargeable AA batteries are not recommended.

https://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/accessories/using-aa-batteries

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Zbig on August 24, 2017, 02:47:32 pm

Quote from: Fgrir on August 24, 2017, 02:32:55 pm

Actually...

Quote

When replacing the batteries in your Xbox One Wireless Controller, use only AA batteries that have an “LR6” designation (alkaline batteries)...
For the best performance, rechargeable AA batteries are not recommended.

https://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/accessories/using-aa-batteries

Wow :o You learn something new every day. Did a quick Google check before posting, by searching for "Xbox controller charging station" and got several results so figured they went for Li-Ion. Seriously, there's no in-device recharging option with Xbox? Well, I'm glad I chose Playstation... ;)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: hermit on August 24, 2017, 07:28:43 pm

The problem they face is that people with rechargeable don't care how quickly they drain.  They just pop them back in the charger.  No extra gadget needed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ice-Tea on August 24, 2017, 08:27:48 pm

Quote from: Brumby on August 24, 2017, 07:11:47 am

This is like Goodyear selling cars to go with their tyres.

Next thing you know, they will be selling torches to go with the batteries......

At some point, Michelin owned most of Citroen...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on August 24, 2017, 10:33:23 pm

Quote from: Fgrir on August 24, 2017, 02:32:55 pm

Actually...

Quote

When replacing the batteries in your Xbox One Wireless Controller, use only AA batteries that have an “LR6” designation (alkaline batteries)...
For the best performance, rechargeable AA batteries are not recommended.

https://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/accessories/using-aa-batteries

There's really no issue with rechargeable batteries in the One controllers, I use them without issue in mine. This is just marketing b.s. Designed to push you into buying their expensive "charge and play" kit - they did the same with the 360 controllers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Godzil on August 28, 2017, 11:12:42 am

360 controller drain AA as fast as lightning, and the battery they were selling was .. the same, I never had to got them to run them even half of the expected time. Always find the controller out of battery after a couple of day. A really badly design product. On the other hand, the ~50h promised by Nintendo on the Wii U Pro Controller was maybe not on par, but I nearly never charge it, and used it a lot, or just leave the thing for weeks without use to find it still fully charged...

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on August 28, 2017, 02:41:03 pm

3 days left
$28,013 USD raised by 431 backers
93% of $30,000 flexible goal

I bet 1500-2000$ gets thrown in any day now, or will they fail or canceled in the last hour?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Kean on August 28, 2017, 03:03:32 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on August 28, 2017, 02:41:03 pm

3 days left
$28,013 USD raised by 431 backers
93% of $30,000 flexible goal

I bet 1500-2000$ gets thrown in any day now, or will they fail or canceled in the last hour?

It is a "flexible goal" - so no failure or cancellation likely, as they are going to get all the funds already collected.
And they'd be silly to throw in any of their own money to get it "over the line" as they'll just be paying extra IGG fees on that.
It is clearly a flop whether they reach the $30k goal or not.  No current or potential investor is going to be impressed.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on August 28, 2017, 04:43:49 pm

Quote from: dr_frost_dk on August 28, 2017, 02:41:03 pm

I bet 1500-2000$ gets thrown in any day now, or will they fail or canceled in the last hour?

Nah, the missing amount will appear by a miracle.

(from somebody with a suspicious connection to Bob)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on August 28, 2017, 05:14:05 pm

Hi,

For Bob and the crew, this is really looking like a disaster. In the last campaign, for the batteriser (renamed Batteroo) they set the target at $30K and raised a respectable $395,149, 1317% of the goal.

In the new campaign for the ReBoost, it looks like they will raise 95-105% of the same $30K goal. The money raised includes some shipping charges and the resale of some batteries and chargers. They now have to develop four products, AAA, AA, C and D versions of the ReBoost.

They have also demonstrated, to potential investors, that there is very little interest in this product, and therefore further diminished the value of the company.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

I wonder how many people use their Batterisers on a regular basis?

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on August 28, 2017, 08:49:58 pm

They must owe their mates about $25,000 by now!  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on September 25, 2017, 03:26:19 am

Hi group,

The campaign on Indiegogo has switched to InDemand. The thing is, the ReBoost doesn't seem to be in demand at all, just one lonely backer since the campaign closed:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=354275;image)


There have been no updates and very little activity in the comments.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on September 25, 2017, 03:52:44 am

Is this still a "thing"?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: djos on September 25, 2017, 03:55:09 am

Quote from: Brumby on September 25, 2017, 03:52:44 am

Is this still a "thing"?

The company is totally on a death spiral now, their second best scam idea has flamed out in spectacular fashion.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: hermit on September 25, 2017, 04:20:09 pm

People that have popped for rechargeable batteries have already figured out they work in most things and simply recharge them when needed.  Go figure.   :-//

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 05, 2017, 09:24:46 pm

I had forgotten all about this, as had all the customers it seems:
They just scrapped in on their target, not that the target mattered to a venture backed company with big money.
They were no doubt shooting for a million dollar campaign, so this is nothing short of a complete flop. They would be making a big financial loss on this campaign.
The company won't be in business much longer unless they get that big Kmart/Walmart order, investor patience will run out, they don't want this nickel and dime IGG rubbish.

(https://i.imgur.com/BTbP8VG.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on October 06, 2017, 05:43:09 am

I wonder who are the two people that bought the $1000 "Platinum Bundle" and another two bought the $500 "Diamond Bundle". I guess either they bought it themselves to make it look bigger (only a small loss of the fees, but might be a big part for the other rewards, too), or they convinced naive resellers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 06, 2017, 07:41:47 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on October 06, 2017, 05:43:09 am

I wonder who are the two people that bought the $1000 "Platinum Bundle" and another two bought the $500 "Diamond Bundle". I guess either they bought it themselves to make it look bigger (only a small loss of the fees, but might be a big part for the other rewards, too), or they convinced naive resellers.

Either of those. No way Joe Average backer ordered those.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on October 06, 2017, 07:52:19 am

They'll get their money back at the next family gathering :)

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Galenbo on October 06, 2017, 10:51:03 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on October 06, 2017, 05:43:09 am

I wonder who are the two people that bought the $1000 "Platinum Bundle" and another two bought the $500 "Diamond Bundle". I guess either they bought it themselves to make it look bigger (only a small loss of the fees, but might be a big part for the other rewards, too), or they convinced naive resellers.

If real, I quess some (indirectly) subsidized "think outside the box" "be positive" organisation.
Choice enough in that swarm, and the lack of any technical knowledge in all of them is high enough to make the successful purchase.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2017, 11:05:50 am

Quote from: McBryce on October 06, 2017, 07:52:19 am

They'll get their money back at the next family gathering :)

Doesn't IndieGoGo take, like, 20%?

There won't be much left after they refund the family members and give IGG their cut.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: StillTrying on October 07, 2017, 01:40:31 am

At the family gathering they be able to discuss their next world changing advance in 19th century battery technology. :horse:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on October 07, 2017, 01:52:59 am

Quote from: Fungus on October 06, 2017, 11:05:50 am

Quote from: McBryce on October 06, 2017, 07:52:19 am

They'll get their money back at the next family gathering :)

Doesn't IndieGoGo take, like, 20%?

There won't be much left after they refund the family members and give IGG their cut.

Probably have it sorted as a write-off for tax.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: dr_frost_dk on October 14, 2017, 07:07:07 pm

New video out, same shit with unregulated laser pointer this time instead of incandescent torches.... just give a few $ extra for a proper regulated laser pointer or LED torch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67ULmrVskbU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67ULmrVskbU)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Towger on October 14, 2017, 07:31:42 pm

Why is the time code on it?  Looks like a preview from the production company.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on October 14, 2017, 07:36:13 pm

Quote from: Towger on October 14, 2017, 07:31:42 pm

Why is the time code on it?  snip...

So you know exactly how much time you wasted watching the video  >:D

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on October 15, 2017, 01:13:28 am

When you know how the Batteroo sleeve works and how a laser diode works, there is absolutely NO surprise in the change in lux.  Doesn't say much for the laser pointer, though.

The only other thing not addressed is the question on run time.  This has always been key to the claims from Batteroo, but it is the one area where they have repeatedly fallen short.


But ... they have demonstrated a significant result.  Pure gold for the marketing department.  "Over 200 times brighter" is a magnificent eye catcher ... for those who don't understand how these things work.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Muttley Snickers on October 15, 2017, 03:11:53 am

Reply #9000, an epic thread by all accounts.   :o ::)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on October 15, 2017, 03:54:38 am

Shakespeare had things like this covered very well....

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=360851;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2017, 06:28:20 am

Quote from: Muttley Snickers on October 15, 2017, 03:11:53 am

Reply #9000, an epic thread by all accounts.   :o ::)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1XgFsitnQw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1XgFsitnQw)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Fungus on October 15, 2017, 09:43:51 am

Quote from: Brumby on October 15, 2017, 01:13:28 am

The only other thing not addressed is the question on run time.  This has always been key to the claims from Batteroo, but it is the one area where they have repeatedly fallen short.

"Falling short" implies they were trying to address that.   :palm:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Brumby on October 15, 2017, 10:21:12 am

I have not used the term to express how they have fallen short of their objectives - but how they have fallen short of everyone else's expectations.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: frozenfrogz on November 06, 2017, 11:23:33 am

Re: Battroo/Batteriser using Eneloop in their marketing campaign

Three months ago I wrote a complaint to Eneloop / Panasonic regarding the use of Eneloop in the Batteriser campaign videos, asking if they are in any way connected with that shady company.
Today I got an Email from the Inside Sales Coordinator for Germany, Austria and Switzerland!

Here is an excerpt/quote from the mail:

Quote

Bitte entschuldigen Sie, dass Sie unsere Antwort erst jetzt erhalten:

Ihren Beitrag habe ich unserer Geschäftsleitung weitergeleitet, die versichert hat, dass es keine Erlaubnis für die Nutzung von eneloop bei Batteroo gibt.
Der Fall wurde von der Markenlizenzabteilung in der Zentrale in Japan aufgenommen, um entsprechende Maßnahmen zu ergreifen.

Wir wünschen Ihnen weiterhin viel Freude an unseren eneloop-Produkten und stehen Ihnen für weitere Fragen gerne zur Verfügung.

Basically she apologized for not getting back to me earlier and told me that Eneloop is in no way a business acquaintance of Batteroo. She asked the head of department and they never gave permission for the use of their name. The issue has been filed to their trademark copyright department at central HQ in Japan and legal actions will be taken.  :popcorn:

Have a good day everyone :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Ysjoelfir on November 06, 2017, 12:23:51 pm

I got the very same message today, just a few minutes ago. Interesting to know that their wheels were turning. We will see what will happen there.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on November 06, 2017, 12:52:10 pm

Oh, wow, the Batteriser, is that still a thing?  ;D

I still have the GPS and the AA Batterisers I didn't test, but it's now just water (sewage) under the bridge.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: frozenfrogz on November 06, 2017, 01:23:58 pm

Nah.. it’s not really a thing anymore but thought you might be interested in this reaction from Panasonic :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on November 17, 2017, 03:44:49 am

Hi.

Yesterday there was an update posted on the Indiegogo campaign for the Batteroo ReBoost.

Here is the link: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-reboost-make-rechargeables-work-anywhere-technology#/updates/all (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteroo-reboost-make-rechargeables-work-anywhere-technology#/updates/all)

And reproduced here:

November Update!
 


Hello Batteroo Supporters,

Just our monthly update, everything is on schedule! We are on track to ship in March as planned. One of our co-founders was in China this week checking up on manufacturing, see a picture of him there below!


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/?action=dlattach;attach=370922;image)

In addition, for those of you who don't know, a couple weeks ago Indiegogo launched Indiegogo Marketplace! It's a platform where you can buy items and get them shipped within the next couple of days. Indiegogo chose our old products, Batteroo Boost, to feature on that page! If you want to get all the Batteroo benefits for disposable batteries with shipping in 3-5 days, check out our page here!

snip ..

Hope you all have a wonderful Thanksgiving, and be sure to check out our Indiegogo Marketplace page on Cyber Monday (11/27) ;)

 

Regards,

The Batteroo Team




Once again, this update says next to nothing about the progress being made with the product.

It is also trying to promote sales of the Batteroo Boost.

I thought that there was going to be a 9V version. Has this been abandoned?


It should be added that there is next to no action in the comments section in Indiegogo. The last comment was two months ago.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: MLXXXp on November 17, 2017, 07:56:42 pm

Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on November 17, 2017, 03:44:49 am

I thought that there was going to be a 9V version. Has this been abandoned?

During the Batteroo ReBoost campaign, Batteroo started responding to comments made in the original Batteroo campaign (I guess they wanted to make it look like they cared about backers after they received their money). They responded to a question about what happened to the free 9V Boost that was promised.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on December 29, 2017, 03:36:55 am

Hi group,

There was another update, 15 days ago:

In case you missed it.

December Update- We are now partnered with BackerKit!
 


Hello Batteroo Supporters!

 



We are happy to announce we have partnered with BackerKit to assist us with some aspects of our post-campaign fulfillment. Having handled over 3000 crowdfunding projects, we could not be in better hands! They will be sending out our surveys to make sure all the information associated with your orders is up to date. You can expect the surveys sometime in January. You will also be able to purchase add-ons for your order; it could be more ReBoost Sleeves/Shells or you can even add Boost Sleeves from our original campaign for disposable batteries! (Reminder, Batteroo Boosts are available now, they make great Christmas gifts!  https://www.indiegogo.com/products/batteroo-extend-your-battery-s-life-significantly (https://www.indiegogo.com/products/batteroo-extend-your-battery-s-life-significantly)) We will send out another update letting you know exactly when you can expect these emails, so watch out for that! You will also be able to go into your survey and change it right up until we start shipping.

 

To  give you an update on the schedule of our activities, we have finalized the design for the IC (integrated circuit) that's basically the "brain" of the ReBoost, and sent it off for manufacturing! The next step is it going through rigorous quality assurance testing to make sure it's perfect. We have also ordered all the materials required for the rest of the Batteroo Sleeves and Shells, so everything is coming together! We are still on track to send out everyone's orders in March, but we will of course update you if anything changes.

 

That's it for now! Hope everyone has a wonderful holiday season, and we will see you all next year!

 

Regards,
The Batteroo Team


Let us hope their IC works first time.

Jay_Diddy_B

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: rrinker on December 29, 2017, 05:35:38 pm

 Any chance that BackerKit is one of the ones that emailed Dave to offer support?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Cyberdragon on February 24, 2018, 07:45:58 pm

For one of my classes, one of our lessons is product liability and warranty law (for the US of course). Under the principal of "implied warranty of merchantability", the product must be "fit for purpose". Since Batterizers claim to violate the laws of physics, they are clearly not "fit for purpose" and are therefore...ILLEGAL TO SELL IN THE US! :-DD Thus, you are allowed to file lawsuit for "breach of warranty"! Trying to disclaim the implied warranty of merchantability is also illegal (if they are actually trying to), so double wammy!

https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Breach+of+Warranty

Good job Batteroo, we are legally allowed to bust your ass (and alot of other scam products)! :palm: 8)

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: meeder on April 16, 2018, 09:07:40 pm

When will they just stop?...

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180416/97ec42b6e27458b5d3ef893f8624ef80.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180416/5dedb750baa5a513aef23e23713021cf.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: james_s on April 16, 2018, 09:09:17 pm

Quote from: meeder on April 16, 2018, 09:07:40 pm

When will they just stop?...

When people stop giving them money.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: NexusKoolaid on April 16, 2018, 09:30:02 pm

Quote from: james_s on April 16, 2018, 09:09:17 pm

Quote from: meeder on April 16, 2018, 09:07:40 pm

When will they just stop?...

When people stop giving them money.

When will people stop resurrecting this thread?

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: f4eru on April 17, 2018, 10:34:19 am

it's like smoking : "I'll stop tomorrow".
Batterizer was entertaining, but we need a new scam to bash now.
"Scambashing" is a new sport. :scared:

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on July 27, 2018, 12:26:50 pm

I set a search query for batteroo on eBay. Got notified today: someone tries to sell it for 3 times the price for which you can get it from the original webpage :-DD

http://cgi.ebay.de/123269450089 (http://cgi.ebay.de/123269450089)

The description was not clear, it says "Battery Type Included: AA + AAA", so I asked the seller. And he answered that you get only one package with 4 sleeves, but I can choose AA or AAA, and 4 free batteries included (which costs like $3). Maybe I should write him the link to this thread? Or someone else who wants to have some fun ask him why it is 3 times as expensive as from batteroo.com?

And also this:

http://cgi.ebay.de/392089751764 (http://cgi.ebay.de/392089751764)

So now we know where they got the cool name :)

(https://i.imgur.com/rp1xDgU.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Russ.Dill@gmail.com on December 20, 2019, 09:34:22 pm

If anyone still has a batteroo, I'd like to get my hands on one. I'm curious about alternate, useful, design using the same form factor.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 21, 2019, 04:58:28 am

Quote from: meeder on April 16, 2018, 09:07:40 pm

When will they just stop?...

Oh FFS, I still have that same Golf GPS and the Batteroos somewhere, so I could bust this, but I couldn't be bothered digging up this old turd.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: FrankBuss on December 21, 2019, 01:08:09 pm

Quote from: Russ.Dill@gmail.com on December 20, 2019, 09:34:22 pm

If anyone still has a batteroo, I'd like to get my hands on one. I'm curious about alternate, useful, design using the same form factor.

You could buy one from their webpage, looks like they are still selling this crap:

https://www.batteroo.com/products/aaa-sleeve-15/ (https://www.batteroo.com/products/aaa-sleeve-15/)

Sometimes it appears on eBay, too.

What other designs do you think about? There is no useful design for it. Just add the booster chip in the device which needs it instead of using a fragile battery sleeve, which just causes that it can't be used with every battery holder anymore.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Domagoj T on December 21, 2019, 02:32:17 pm

I have an unopened 4x AAA box. You can have it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: EEVblog on December 23, 2019, 08:09:24 am

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 21, 2019, 01:08:09 pm

What other designs do you think about? There is no useful design for it. Just add the booster chip in the device which needs it instead of using a fragile battery sleeve, which just causes that it can't be used with every battery holder anymore.

It's only advantage is that is operates down to 0.5V or so while other converters will only go to about 0.8V
Their whole delusion was that there was useful energy left in the battery to go that low. Spoiler, there isn't.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Quarlo Klobrigney on December 23, 2019, 04:22:23 pm

And the "free energy" crowd make the same mistake. I can see 5V coming from a lemon! Look at the tagline below. Voltage does not flow nor does it go. Seeing a static voltage does not equate to the ability to pass current, therefore = lack of capacity as far as the battery or the lemon.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Koen on December 23, 2019, 06:37:57 pm

All I want for Christmas is a revival of this topic.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: coppercone2 on December 23, 2019, 11:37:18 pm

you can advertise this in the next oceans 11's movie when the radio detonator does not work because of dead batteries (you might need will smith to pull this level of advertising off though)

those batteries are gonna leak ultra fast, even if it works perfectly.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: McBryce on December 24, 2019, 09:20:39 am

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/60997711-53a4-43d3-b399-94069610c5f3


McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
Post by: Russ.Dill@gmail.com on December 27, 2019, 05:28:25 pm

Quote from: FrankBuss on December 21, 2019, 01:08:09 pm

Quote from: Russ.Dill@gmail.com on December 20, 2019, 09:34:22 pm

If anyone still has a batteroo, I'd like to get my hands on one. I'm curious about alternate, useful, design using the same form factor.

You could buy one from their webpage, looks like they are still selling this crap:

https://www.batteroo.com/products/aaa-sleeve-15/ (https://www.batteroo.com/products/aaa-sleeve-15/)

Sometimes it appears on eBay, too.

What other designs do you think about? There is no useful design for it. Just add the booster chip in the device which needs it instead of using a fragile battery sleeve, which just causes that it can't be used with every battery holder anymore.

Other designs for the footprint, not the circuitry. Not my plan, but a fun example would be the snapper (night at the museum). A circuit that detects a nearby loud and short noise and toggles a mosfet that turns on and off the device the battery is installed in.