Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 2505611 times)

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Offline g.lewarne

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7075 on: December 12, 2016, 12:54:14 am »
Interesting new post from wayne.  Did anyone else notice that he *didn't say a single thing about the performance of the units he already has* in any definite, meaningful way?  I would have thought by now if they actually were 8x800% better than the universe he would be all about the gloating.

Its almost like he knows, after his testing, they are mostly bunk, but figures the average consumer will fall for it (as proven on indiegogo) and can use this opportunity as a reseller to make some $$$
 

Offline Sonny_Jim

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7076 on: December 12, 2016, 01:57:12 am »
(I'm pretty sure anyone reading this knows the following already, but just to spell it out)
It seems they have a product that will deliver an overall benefit to the average consumer, who by the way, is not generally interested in the “electrical engineering” viewpoint of statistics and graphs showing whether or not it achieves the up to 8 x maximum output that was first quoted over 2 years ago?
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I’m sure most people would agree that you need to get over your ongoing obsession about the whole “up to 8x” deal. Quite obviously, it was an exited claim about one individual test 2 ½ years ago and has been pursued by you ever since.
They were still proclaiming the 'Up to 8x' spiel right up until the week before the product had started to ship, which they then changed to 'increased significantly'.  Probably because they were informed by their lawyers that the 8x claim would run afoul of the various advertising authority and trading standards laws.  So it's erroneous to say that it was an exaggerated claim after a single test and that the 'crazies on the EEVBlog #751' [sic] are latching on to it as a way to point out the products failings. 

Remember, that figure was the cornerstone of their marketing campaign for the last 2.5 years!  For them to change it at the very last minute just reinforces the belief that it was grade A bullshit in the first place.
 
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Your average person just wants a product that delivers a meaningful benefit at a reasonable price. If it works for them, they will buy again and also recommend it to others.
If not – good bye!!!
The market will decide, which, technically makes you lot completely irrelevant!
That's a good point and very shortsighted of Wayne.  What do you think will happen when consumers do finally get their hands on this product, only to find out that it does not perform as claimed?  Do you think they will be recommending it to friends?  So really, it doesn't matter what is said here,  people will buy the product, see that it's junk and not recommend it.

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Anyway, try not to troll the innocent commenter’s on Indiegogo too much and stay focused on your real goal, which is...........- WTF is it really????

This bit got me thinking????

Suddenly it clicked - !!!!

Donate
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Righto, so now I realise it’s just somebody else on the gravy train! How many gullible people will be jumping on board????

Enough said.
Pot, kettle, black.  Wayne is now jumping on EEVBlogs 'gravy train' to try and sell his stock.  I can guarantee that EEVBlog gets more visits per day that Revive Batteries.  So unfortunately, the more hoo-hah that Wayne gets on this forum means more views for him, and he knows this. 

Is it irony that Wayne is trying to call out Dave on this by saying 'It's a big scam to make money for the EEVBlog', when in reality that's *exactly* what Wayne is trying to do?

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Just try the Batteroos for yourself and make up your own mind.
That's exactly the entire point of this thread, we want to see a qualified engineer test these things properly, but it seems no one wants to let us get access to them.  You don't need a tinfoil hat to see why Wayne & Batteroo are both very, very reluctant for this to happen.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7077 on: December 12, 2016, 03:32:29 am »

Quote
Your average person just wants a product that delivers a meaningful benefit at a reasonable price. If it works for them, they will buy again and also recommend it to others.
If not – good bye!!!
The market will decide, which, technically makes you lot completely irrelevant!
That's a good point and very shortsighted of Wayne.  What do you think will happen when consumers do finally get their hands on this product, only to find out that it does not perform as claimed?  Do you think they will be recommending it to friends?  So really, it doesn't matter what is said here,  people will buy the product, see that it's junk and not recommend it.

Maybe Wayne is shortsighted - maybe he isn't.  Maybe he's just willing to take a product and present it to the market and let the market decide.

He does make one very valid point ... "Your average person just wants a product that delivers a meaningful benefit at a reasonable price."  That "meaningful benefit" need only be one thing.  Exactly what that is for each purchaser may differ, but it does NOT mean that every claim ever made has to be evaluated and confirmed.

Let me offer this hypothetical product: A car - but one that was promoted as having great styling, excellent fuel economy and top of the range handling at an affordable price.  When it gets released, the styling is seen to be boring, the fuel economy a joke and the handling is borderline scary - but the price is as advertised - and it goes like the clappers!!

The engineers will (quite rightly) condemn it for the pile of crap that it is ... but you can bet your boots it is going to sell, at least at the outset.

Sure the Batteroo sleeve is challenged on a number of it's "engineering claims" - but if the public finds something useful to do with it, they will buy it.


As I've said before, the poor communication and delays from Batteroo will be mostly forgotten, should the product roll out be completed.  While this is still to be shown, we are getting tantalizing teasers.  However, these cannot be discounted as carefully placed seeds of hope, since there is no clear indication that the shipping process currently under way is dispatching thousands of units.


Just try the Batteroos for yourself and make up your own mind.

I would love to, but ....
 

Offline Sonny_Jim

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7078 on: December 12, 2016, 03:55:59 am »
Quote
Let me offer this hypothetical product: A car - but one that was promoted as having great styling, excellent fuel economy and top of the range handling at an affordable price.  When it gets released, the styling is seen to be boring, the fuel economy a joke and the handling is borderline scary - but the price is as advertised - and it goes like the clappers!!

The engineers will (quite rightly) condemn it for the pile of crap that it is ... but you can bet your boots it is going to sell, at least at the outset.
Respectfully, that's not a very good analogy.  Unlike the hypothetical car, the Batteriser doesn't have multiple features, it has a single feature, to make battery life longer, which it's not very good at.  If the Batteriser was a rechargeable battery with a built-in boost converter, than maybe the analogy would work better perhaps.

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Sure the Batteroo sleeve is challenged on a number of it's "engineering claims" - but if the public finds something useful to do with it, they will buy it.
Right now, the only useful applications seem to be cheap vibrators and motorised kids toys.  Can't wait to see Bob at the next Adult Video Entertainment Awards dressed as Probes the Monkey waving around a cheap rubber dong.....

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As I've said before, the poor communication and delays from Batteroo will be mostly forgotten, should the product roll out be completed.
TBH it seems that outside of a few nerdy engineers and the wishful kickstarter bunch, the majority of people have zero interest in the product and will be promptly forgotten altogether.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 03:58:56 am by Sonny_Jim »
 

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7079 on: December 12, 2016, 04:31:15 am »
People , please, do not post about Wayne again, just let him disappear into obscurity, he is not coming back.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7080 on: December 12, 2016, 04:41:06 am »
Then, remove any reference to "He who shall not be named".  The basis for my points still stands.

You have completely missed the point, Sonny_Jim.  It's not about what the Batteroo sleeve can't do - it's about what it can - as miserable as that might be for some people.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 04:43:16 am by Brumby »
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7081 on: December 12, 2016, 05:00:51 am »
I reckon there is a good chance that the tab or fold for the negative battery terminal could get caught up in the connection spring inside some devices, I hope they provide a warranty statement of some type with these products.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7082 on: December 12, 2016, 05:06:31 am »
- but if the public finds something useful to do with it, they will buy it.
Not even that is a necessary reason to buy something. I have a box of devboards to prove it.
(I am suddenly feeling a bit self-conscious .... for some unknown reason   :-[ )


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And as far as BAtteroo goes it doesn't have to get anywhere near the most extreme claims to be somewhat useful in products like toys. Extracting all the energy and still giving good performance right up to the end is all that is required. If my LEGO train stopped suddenly without warning but wasn't crawling along at the end then it would have been fantastic.
That's the sort of thing I was thinking about.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7083 on: December 12, 2016, 05:08:27 am »
People , please, do not post about Wayne again, just let him disappear into obscurity, he is not coming back.

So Dave, how do you plan on getting a sleeve or two in your hot little hands? Seeing as nobody from Revive Batteries has any clue, we're all looking to you.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7084 on: December 12, 2016, 05:10:56 am »
And as far as BAtteroo goes it doesn't have to get anywhere near the most extreme claims to be somewhat useful in products like toys. Extracting all the energy and still giving good performance right up to the end is all that is required. If my LEGO train stopped suddenly without warning but wasn't crawling along at the end then it would have been fantastic.

That's not what Batteroo are claiming though. If they'd claimed that from the start then this entire thread wouldn't exist.

 

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7085 on: December 12, 2016, 05:34:26 am »
So Dave, how do you plan on getting a sleeve or two in your hot little hands? Seeing as nobody from Revive Batteries has any clue, we're all looking to you.

Rest assured that if Batteroo deliver all their perks then some will find their way into my hands.
They have obviously only delivered a small numbers of backer units so far, otherwise I'd already have some.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7086 on: December 12, 2016, 06:01:34 am »
If these things ever appear in widespread use they will succeed or fail based on how well they satisfy real everyday use.

I doubt I will buy them. ... If it isn't cheap toys I don't know what use case exists.

You just admitted they don't satisfy real everyday use.

maintaining the rage about the original ridiculous claims is a self serving wank

"Original"?

This is Batteroo's website right now:





That's what's being sold to people. How is that not outrageous?

« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 06:03:39 am by Fungus »
 

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7087 on: December 12, 2016, 06:10:05 am »
This is Batteroo's website right now:


Yes, their claim has been massaged a bit in terms of wording but their main claim about the amount of unused energy in batteries is still outrageously front and centre. It's also not in line with their main claim now that passive devices get the most value out of the Batteriser.
 

Offline Sonny_Jim

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7088 on: December 12, 2016, 06:34:09 am »
You have completely missed the point, Sonny_Jim.  It's not about what the Batteroo sleeve can't do - it's about what it can - as miserable as that might be for some people.
Well, enlighten me.  What can it do then?

It can drain the battery faster when used in a device that already has a boost converter
It can get jammed in battery compartments

It can't increase useful battery life in the vast majority of applications

Quote from: wilfred
I'm sufficiently disinterested in tracking the various mathematics of the benefit claims and if or whether they have changed over time to debate them.
Isn't that the entire point of this thread?  To investigate the claims Batteriser have made and use science and reasoning to see if they are plausible?  I'm beginning to think you might be in the wrong place.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7089 on: December 12, 2016, 08:18:11 am »
You have completely missed the point, Sonny_Jim.  It's not about what the Batteroo sleeve can't do - it's about what it can - as miserable as that might be for some people.
Well, enlighten me.  What can it do then?

There's no point in me trying to answer that, because you are not prepared to listen - as evidenced by your following comments and other examples...

Quote
It can drain the battery faster when used in a device that already has a boost converter
It can get jammed in battery compartments

It can't increase useful battery life in the vast majority of applications
 

Offline Sonny_Jim

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7090 on: December 12, 2016, 08:55:25 am »
There's no point in me trying to answer that, because you are not prepared to listen - as evidenced by your following comments and other examples...
I read your car analogy and it made zero sense to me.  I've looked through some of your previous posts about this subject, some of it is about the packaging it comes in.  The best I can see is this post you made:

Quote
As much as we all understand what the Batteroo sleeve CAN'T do, we had better allow ourselves to acknowledge what it can or might be able to do - because if Bob and Co. come up with a list of, say, 3 marketable things that the product can deliver - even if they are not what was in the original design spec. - then the utterly condemning EE's have lost all credibility in the eyes of the general public.

If I'm reading that correctly, you feel as long as there's any situation where these things can actually increase battery life, then it absolves Bob and Co. from all the outlandish claims they've made during their marketing campaign.  I don't think I can agree with that, I'm afraid.

To use a better car analogy:

A manufacturer launches a new modification kit that can be added to an existing car, that uses decades old technology that can improve fuel consumption figures.  The majority of cars already have this technology fitted from the factory.  Adding this kit also has the side effect of rendering the fuel gauge useless.

The mod kit manufacturer then starts making videos with the mod kit fitted to cars that already have this technology, saying that 'Big Oil' don't want you find out about this amazing new technology.

Mechanics point out that not only is this kit pointless in the majority of cars, it may actually cause a greater fuel drain.

Your point is that as long as there are some cars around that may benefit from this modification, then the mechanics should keep schtum about it?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 08:59:09 am by Sonny_Jim »
 
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Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7091 on: December 12, 2016, 09:00:55 am »
You cut right to the heart of the matter. The Batteroo does need to be investigated and it's performance rigorously examined.

Watching the designers/sellers do everything in their power to avoid people doing that doesn't entertain you?

To me it suggests the final performance curve will be highly entertaining.

... serving a useful purpose other than to provide entertainment?

Entertainment is useful.

 
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Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7092 on: December 12, 2016, 09:05:22 am »
Many years ago I used to work for a large manufacturer of corrugated cardboard boxes, so I know what I'm looking at here. Those boxes are not a stock item, they fit the actual Batteroo product packaging too well. Bob has had to pay to have those made and the economics of a printed, die cut case like that dictate that you don't order a few dozen of them, you order a few thousand. The NRE costs of having the cutting die designed and made dominate the order costs for small (i.e. less than 10-20 thousand) orders. I can tell just from looking that they're not hand cut sample cases, they were actually die cut.

Sure, but maybe the dies, etc., were made about 18 months ago when Bob was riding the wave (instead of being in damage-limitation mode like he is now).

Same goes for the plastic boxes. There were photos of those at least a year ago.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7093 on: December 12, 2016, 10:34:31 am »
There's no point in me trying to answer that, because you are not prepared to listen - as evidenced by your following comments and other examples...
I read your car analogy and it made zero sense to me.  I've looked through some of your previous posts about this subject, some of it is about the packaging it comes in.  The best I can see is this post you made:

Quote
As much as we all understand what the Batteroo sleeve CAN'T do, we had better allow ourselves to acknowledge what it can or might be able to do - because if Bob and Co. come up with a list of, say, 3 marketable things that the product can deliver - even if they are not what was in the original design spec. - then the utterly condemning EE's have lost all credibility in the eyes of the general public.

If I'm reading that correctly, you feel as long as there's any situation where these things can actually increase battery life, then it absolves Bob and Co. from all the outlandish claims they've made during their marketing campaign.  I don't think I can agree with that, I'm afraid.

To use a better car analogy:

A manufacturer launches a new modification kit that can be added to an existing car, that uses decades old technology that can improve fuel consumption figures.  The majority of cars already have this technology fitted from the factory.  Adding this kit also has the side effect of rendering the fuel gauge useless.

The mod kit manufacturer then starts making videos with the mod kit fitted to cars that already have this technology, saying that 'Big Oil' don't want you find out about this amazing new technology.

Mechanics point out that not only is this kit pointless in the majority of cars, it may actually cause a greater fuel drain.

Your point is that as long as there are some cars around that may benefit from this modification, then the mechanics should keep schtum about it?

You've just proven once again why it would be pointless for me to try to explain it to you.  You just cannot see past your own nose.

My original car analogy was perfectly capable of demonstrating the point I wanted to make.  You just chose to not see it - or were unable to.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 10:41:45 am by Brumby »
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7094 on: December 12, 2016, 10:39:08 am »
While this thread is meant to be about debunking a product, it has grown into something a bit bigger.  Be that as it may, there is a lot of interest in the content of this thread and the debunk is under scrutiny.

It is my belief that credibility is derived from objectivity.  If we have any respect for objectivity, we have to allow every aspect to be included - both those that support the premise as well as those that are in conflict with it.  If we don't, then the critics have the opportunity to denounce those findings as utterly biased and will be able to present a believable argument.

Even Dave has made a clear point of acknowledging one of the basic details of the Batteroo sleeve - in big, bold, red text, no less.

I've been trying to make the distinction between the engineering analysis and the public response to the product.  As much as Batteroo can be fairly called out on the shortcomings of the claims, the public won't care - as long as it does something for them.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7095 on: December 12, 2016, 10:43:53 am »
In short, the product may absolutely fail in every claim, but if the paying public find a use for it, it will sell.




... doesn't excuse Bob and co, though.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 10:50:44 am by Brumby »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7096 on: December 12, 2016, 10:51:13 am »
In short, the product may absolutely fail in every claim, but if the paying public find a use for it, it will sell.

Yes, but the public should be told what that use is.

Telling the public that it's 800% better in all cases is fraud.

If you want a car analogy it's like advertising cars that can do "up 800 mpg" when in fact you're most likely to get worse mileage than ordinary cars.
 

Offline ErikTheNorwegian

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7097 on: December 12, 2016, 12:33:43 pm »
There's no point in me trying to answer that, because you are not prepared to listen - as evidenced by your following comments and other examples...
I read your car analogy and it made zero sense to me.  I've looked through some of your previous posts about this subject, some of it is about the packaging it comes in.  The best I can see is this post you made:

Quote
As much as we all understand what the Batteroo sleeve CAN'T do, we had better allow ourselves to acknowledge what it can or might be able to do - because if Bob and Co. come up with a list of, say, 3 marketable things that the product can deliver - even if they are not what was in the original design spec. - then the utterly condemning EE's have lost all credibility in the eyes of the general public.

If I'm reading that correctly, you feel as long as there's any situation where these things can actually increase battery life, then it absolves Bob and Co. from all the outlandish claims they've made during their marketing campaign.  I don't think I can agree with that, I'm afraid.

To use a better car analogy:

A manufacturer launches a new modification kit that can be added to an existing car, that uses decades old technology that can improve fuel consumption figures.  The majority of cars already have this technology fitted from the factory.  Adding this kit also has the side effect of rendering the fuel gauge useless.

The mod kit manufacturer then starts making videos with the mod kit fitted to cars that already have this technology, saying that 'Big Oil' don't want you find out about this amazing new technology.

Mechanics point out that not only is this kit pointless in the majority of cars, it may actually cause a greater fuel drain.

Your point is that as long as there are some cars around that may benefit from this modification, then the mechanics should keep schtum about it?

You've just proven once again why it would be pointless for me to try to explain it to you.  You just cannot see past your own nose.

My original car analogy was perfectly capable of demonstrating the point I wanted to make.  You just chose to not see it - or were unable to.

Similar cases, to Batteriser, claiming one thing and selling another.
In this case, Tesla  electric cars hand a false claim of HP has been true the Consumer Help Center in Norway. Tesla has now some time before they can argue the case and take it  further up   into the  court system if they decide to.
Tesla sold cars, the model S P85D and claiming they had 700 HP and accelerated from 0-100Km/t in 3.2 seconds.  Test later shows that the cars only had 436 HP, and not meet the claimed acceleration.
Several owners of the cars did not this pass easily, and wanted a reduction in the price paid. Tesla did not agree and the case ended in the Norwegian Consumer court.
Tesla had to pay, after a court ruling 50.000 NKR, about  7.700 € back to the to the owners due to the fact that the cars got 20% less HP than advertised.

Erik

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-norway-settlement-idUSKBN1411BJ
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-21/tesla-sued-by-car-owners-in-norway-as-speed-not-insane-enough

http://s1.dn.no/privat/dnBil/2016/06/30/0815/norske-teslaeiere-tilkjent-erstatning
http://www.vg.no/forbruker/bil-baat-og-motor/elbil/tesla-eiere-er-tilkjent-erstatning/a/23726722/
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 01:38:52 pm by ErikTheNorwegian »
/Erik
Goooood karma is flowing..
 

Offline madires

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7098 on: December 12, 2016, 12:38:50 pm »
You have completely missed the point, Sonny_Jim.  It's not about what the Batteroo sleeve can't do - it's about what it can - as miserable as that might be for some people.
Well, enlighten me.  What can it do then?

I think the Batteroo sleeves would be useful for simple gadgets without any battery gauge and with a direct impact of the voltage on the performance, especially when using rechargeable batteries. Things like Probes the Monkey or Chinese "good vibrations" would benefit. The latter could be a viable market. Anyway, it's not what Batteroo has advertised from the beginning.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 01:35:10 pm by madires »
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7099 on: December 12, 2016, 12:47:56 pm »
Erik - fair point, but I can't see a cheap Batteroo sleeve that falls short of it's claims driving that sort of legal action.  Most dissatisfied people will just bag it and write it off as a waste of money.

madires - agreed.  The original claims were impossible - and even the current claims are a fantasy.  But as much as the engineering analysis shows certain (striking) issues - the retailers and public will still want to find some good in it.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 12:51:47 pm by Brumby »
 


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