Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 2343838 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7275 on: December 16, 2016, 09:18:46 pm »
I have sent an email to zeptobars for decaping, so depending on the answer I will give them two samples. So the count is 4 to Dave and 2 to FrankBuss. Possibly 2 to for decaping. 8 in total. I know a lot of you want to test them, however I only have 8 :)
Thanks. I can forward them to anybody who wants them after my tests.

Bare in mind that proper testing will likely require soldering wires onto the pads (4 wires, two for sense), otherwise it's pretty fiddly.
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7276 on: December 16, 2016, 09:21:16 pm »
Maybe it's time to start a separate "Batteroo testing" thread.

Possibly, who thinks a dedicated thread strictly just for testing is a good idea?

No question about it and no funny business, this is serious stuff.   ::)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7277 on: December 16, 2016, 09:23:52 pm »
Here you go

Sweden? Did they end up with the same drop-shipping company as Dave?  :-DD
edit: tracking link http://www.postnord.se/en/tools/track/Pages/track-and-trace.aspx?search=RE516481241SE
So they posted it Nov 16, and left the US on Nov 21, and then didn't arrive at the destination until now, a month later

Yep, sounds like the shipping company (DirectLink) that was used for my uRuler:
https://www.eevblog.com/2013/12/31/traps-for-even-simple-successful-crowd-funded-projects/

That actually explains the haphazard nature of the shipping.
Still does not explain why the early backers did not get their units first.
 

Online FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7278 on: December 16, 2016, 10:29:27 pm »
Bare in mind that proper testing will likely require soldering wires onto the pads (4 wires, two for sense), otherwise it's pretty fiddly.
I thought about using thin metal stripes: two between the battery plus terminal and the Betteriser, with isolation between, so that I can measure the current into the Batteriser and the battery voltage. For the output voltage and current I can just plug it in a battery holder and solder wires to the battery holder. But right, might be fiddly this way and the stripes might not make contact to the pads. I'm not good with mechanics anyway, so soldering wires to the Batterieser would be easier. If it is normal PCB (maybe even gold plated), would be no problem. Soldering to the negative terminal could be a problem, stainless steel doesn't like this, but some windings of bare wire and pressing it against the contact with a paper clip and electrical tape should do it for this side.

Don't know if it is necessary to use 4 wires, I was planning to do some tests with 100 mA and 10 mA, but might be a good idea to check the limits, too, because as we know, the webpage says it can handle all the current a battery can deliver :bullshit: Problem with this is, Batteroo will say this is not a proper test, because the battery would provide a lot of cooling, and this might be less efficient with soldered wires between the battery positive terminal and the pad, if it creates a gap, but we'll see.

But might be good anyway to test it without a battery with a power supply. I just found out how to control my SPD3303D power supply over USB from a Python script from my Linux system (it uses the USBTMC protocol, which a lot of instruments and power supplies use, e.g. some Keysight gear, too). So I can create a lot of characteristics curves automatically with a script for different input voltages and loads, without having to wait until a battery discharges.

A problem is that I have only one high quality 4 3/4 digits benchtop multimeter, which I can read over RS232. But I have an ADG608 8x1 mux in my parts bin, which I can power with +/-5V to prevent non-linear behaviour at low voltages, and I have a uCurrent Gold, which is perfect with the low burden voltage to measure the current into the Batteriser. Too bad I sold my old uCurrent, but the output current is no problem to measure with something like an 1 ohm and 0.1 ohm shunt. I guess the ADG608 has no problems switching millivolts?
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
Electronics, hiking, retro-computing, electronic music etc.: https://www.youtube.com/c/FrankBussProgrammer
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7279 on: December 16, 2016, 11:10:32 pm »
Perhaps you could make the connections for testing using a dummy battery somehow.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AAA-Placeholder-Dummy-Battery-Batteries-Shell-for-Digital-Camera-UK-Ship-/162175228364
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline dcac

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7280 on: December 16, 2016, 11:34:05 pm »
Initial tests should probably be done without any soldering or tampering with the Batteriser, else Batteroo will just claim that heat transfer, or whatever, changed its characteristics and the test thereby is invalid.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7281 on: December 16, 2016, 11:36:08 pm »
Bare in mind that proper testing will likely require soldering wires onto the pads (4 wires, two for sense), otherwise it's pretty fiddly.
I thought about using thin metal stripes: two between the battery plus terminal and the Betteriser, with isolation between, so that I can measure the current into the Batteriser and the battery voltage. For the output voltage and current I can just plug it in a battery holder and solder wires to the battery holder. But right, might be fiddly this way and the stripes might not make contact to the pads. I'm not good with mechanics anyway, so soldering wires to the Batterieser would be easier. If it is normal PCB (maybe even gold plated), would be no problem. Soldering to the negative terminal could be a problem, stainless steel doesn't like this, but some windings of bare wire and pressing it against the contact with a paper clip and electrical tape should do it for this side.
It works well:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/petzl-myo-rxp-power-consumption-and-battery-box/msg493944/#msg493944

I've got a multichannel SMU which can automate measuring all the performance sweeps if anyone wants to send a sleeve over (not sure dave still has these around the lab?).
 

Offline g.lewarne

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7282 on: December 17, 2016, 12:12:16 am »
OMG!  ITS HAPPENING!

Many thanks to our Romanian friend for not only splashing out on these, but sending them out to the experts here for a proper engineering analysis.

I really look forward to the results and videos to come soon!
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7283 on: December 17, 2016, 12:22:49 am »
A problem is that I have only one high quality 4 3/4 digits benchtop multimeter, which I can read over RS232. But I have an ADG608 8x1 mux in my parts bin, which I can power with +/-5V to prevent non-linear behaviour at low voltages, and I have a uCurrent Gold, which is perfect with the low burden voltage to measure the current into the Batteriser. Too bad I sold my old uCurrent, but the output current is no problem to measure with something like an 1 ohm and 0.1 ohm shunt. I guess the ADG608 has no problems switching millivolts?

No need for a uCurrent, as that's what the sense wire is for voltmeter directly on input and output terminals takes into account and input and output shunt resistance and any load lead wire resistance.
I couldn't be bothered automating this, so will just set up 4 meters and take a few dozen points at each load current. Maybe include a temp probe too, but as you say, the battery will provide some thermal sink. But hey, the batteriser will be inside a sealed battery compartment, so maybe fair compensation.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7284 on: December 17, 2016, 12:26:41 am »
've got a multichannel SMU which can automate measuring all the performance sweeps if anyone wants to send a sleeve over (not sure dave still has these around the lab?).

I only have a Keithley 2400 SMU, single channel job.
 

Online FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7285 on: December 17, 2016, 12:46:02 am »
Maybe it's time to start a separate "Batteroo testing" thread.

Possibly, who thinks a dedicated thread strictly just for testing is a good idea?
Good idea, I just started one:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/batteroo-testing/msg1092959/
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
Electronics, hiking, retro-computing, electronic music etc.: https://www.youtube.com/c/FrankBussProgrammer
 

Online FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7286 on: December 17, 2016, 12:56:57 am »
No need for a uCurrent, as that's what the sense wire is for voltmeter directly on input and output terminals takes into account and input and output shunt resistance and any load lead wire resistance.
I have only one 4 3/4 digit voltmeter, so the input shunt has to be high enough to measure a voltage difference. Should be possible with an additional instrument and just measuring the difference, but I plan to measure it all referenced to ground, this would be a problem. And making the input shunt higher would require to adjust the input voltage incrementally to get to the desired input voltage. But not a problem, I already have your uCurrent here. But we can discuss this in the new thread. Using 4 multimeters, all with isolated inputs relative to ground, would be of course the easiest way.
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
Electronics, hiking, retro-computing, electronic music etc.: https://www.youtube.com/c/FrankBussProgrammer
 

Offline TheSteve

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7287 on: December 17, 2016, 02:07:31 am »
I can't wait for probes the Monkey to make his return!
VE7FM
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7288 on: December 17, 2016, 02:09:31 am »
I can't wait for probes the Monkey to make his return!

He will need a sound proof test box!
I have an old Garmin AAA GPS watch somewhere, will have to dig it out.
 

Offline trophosphere

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7289 on: December 17, 2016, 02:31:05 am »
You should record probes the monkey with a digital clock and create a time-lapse video with the key part (slowing down and dying) showcased in normal speed. His battery and the Batteriser can also be hooked up to multi-meters.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7290 on: December 17, 2016, 02:38:14 am »
You should record probes the monkey with a digital clock and create a time-lapse video with the key part (slowing down and dying) showcased in normal speed. His battery and the Batteriser can also be hooked up to multi-meters.

I plan to time-lapse all product tests with a clock in the frame.
No need to measure voltages. We only need data on product run times.
 
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Offline samgab

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7291 on: December 17, 2016, 02:59:51 am »
Yeah, there's a lot to be said for the "K.I.S.S" philosophy. No need for all these ridiculous complex circuits to test if a device that is meant to extend battery life actually extends battery life.
 

Offline samgab

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7292 on: December 17, 2016, 03:06:49 am »
New "Batteroo Boost" promo video on Youtube:


The  :palm: :palm: :palm: factor is high with this one.
Same old regurgitated marketing spiel about how the device renders useFUL battery gauges useLESS.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7293 on: December 17, 2016, 03:19:33 am »
New "Batteroo Boost" promo video on Youtube:

The  :palm: :palm: :palm: factor is high with this one.

No kidding.
Very deceptive in what is doesn't tell you, namely:
a) How much time would the used batteries have had left?
b) How much time extension do you actually get with the Batteriser?
c) How much extra time (if any) would you get if you installed the Batteriser when the batteries were fresh?
d) The major fact that battery gauge is now rendered useless
 

Offline ez24

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7294 on: December 17, 2016, 03:30:50 am »
New "Batteroo Boost" promo video on Youtube:


She sounds like she is from West Australia, I would say around Darwin
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7295 on: December 17, 2016, 04:08:56 am »
No kidding.
Very deceptive in what is doesn't tell you, namely:
a) How much time would the used batteries have had left?
b) How much time extension do you actually get with the Batteriser?
c) How much extra time (if any) would you get if you installed the Batteriser when the batteries were fresh?
d) The major fact that battery gauge is now rendered useless

e) How pointless the whole exercise is as the Apple Wireless Keyboard lasts forever on a pair of batteries anyway. (I get around 9 months to a set of batteries with the keyboard left turned on 24x7.)
f) I checked a set of batteries immediately after they came out of an Apple Wireless Trackpad as 'dead' (the Trackpad actually turned off in use after weeks of low battery warning) a couple of weeks back. They had an off load, open circuit voltage of around 0.85V. It just happened that as they went dead I was playing around withcharacterizing an LT2400 ADC and an AD586 reference on a breadboard not three feet away so I hooked one up to amuse myself by watching the open circuit voltage creep up microvolt by microvolt as they recovered.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7296 on: December 17, 2016, 04:10:39 am »
She sounds like she is from West Australia, I would say around Darwin

Why do you think that? Could you perhaps have heard something buzzing in the background audio?  :)
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline ez24

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7297 on: December 17, 2016, 05:33:34 am »
She sounds like she is from West Australia, I would say around Darwin

Why do you think that? Could you perhaps have heard something buzzing in the background audio?  :)

Her accent is not Californian
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Offline djos

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7298 on: December 17, 2016, 05:39:20 am »
New "Batteroo Boost" promo video on Youtube:


She sounds like she is from West Australia, I would say around Darwin

Sounds like a western Sydney twang to me.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Offline Someone

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7299 on: December 17, 2016, 05:58:56 am »
New "Batteroo Boost" promo video on Youtube:


She sounds like she is from West Australia, I would say around Darwin

Sounds like a western Sydney twang to me.
Well, Darwin is part of the Northern Territory rather than Western Australia, and while west of the "middle" of Australia its more central than east/west.

Anyway the accent is NSW, of a typical north coast type.
 


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