Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 2330649 times)

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Offline djos

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7400 on: December 19, 2016, 09:42:15 pm »
If it doesn't get to Dave before Christmas, there might be a bit of a wait....

Between Saturday 24th to Monday 2nd January, Australia Post will only be working on the 29th & 30th December.

Some of us aren't even working that! I started my leave yesterday. :D

But yes you are correct the delivery centres have been going full tilt with maximum staffing levels (even staff from other parts off the biz have been helping out + heaps of casuals) so I think they deserve their breaks. :)
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Offline orolo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7401 on: December 19, 2016, 10:12:36 pm »
I don't know if it has been covered, but could it happen that in a multi battery device one of the batteries plunges to 0V while the others keep pushing 1.5V, leading to battery failure simmilar to mixing old and new cells?
 

Offline BarsMonster

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7402 on: December 19, 2016, 10:27:14 pm »
I don't know if it has been covered, but could it happen that in a multi battery device one of the batteries plunges to 0V while the others keep pushing 1.5V, leading to battery failure simmilar to mixing old and new cells?

Maybe they have invented some battery neighbor discovery interface, so when 1 battery drops to 0 - it is bypassed by FET ( Schottky might have too high leakage), and the remaining battery boost to 3V now. Mixing old and new batteries this way could indeed be useful in some scenarios and provide extra capacity. Fat chance...
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Offline digsys

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7403 on: December 19, 2016, 10:33:32 pm »
Quote from: Ysjoelfir
... We are approaching the 300 pages mark in this topic ..... Nice! We should celebrate this milestone! 
Waaaaay ahead of you (hic)  :-)
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Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7404 on: December 19, 2016, 10:34:43 pm »
The batterizer BOM cost is likely around $0.75 USD, which might make the IC around $0.20 or so. If that math is close, that would be a cool IC, even if it was only good to 500 mA.

I can buy one of those Chinese modules for $0.50, so... cheap chips already exist. Some of them work with a single battery.
 

Offline Luminax

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7405 on: December 20, 2016, 01:23:45 am »
In the mean time it would be cool if Dave would share with us what tests his units will undergo, or what he's got in store for them once they're delivered.

Me have a plan?  :-DD
One will get wires soldered on for efficiency curve measurement.
Will test minimum startup voltage, output ripple (vs current), switching frequency, temp, that sort of stuff. So expect that in the first video.
I'll pop two others in a AAA product (maybe my GPS watch if I can find it) with timelapse.
Actually, I should start product testing now without the Batteriser for a benchmark.
Maybe the product timelapse will make the first video, not sure, but product testing takes time.

Quote
I believe he's already been in touch with people who'll decap and take microscopic photos of the die. What else?

I believe some will be on their way separately to the Zeptobars decapping guy.

You have the best Batteroo test equipment in the world! PROBES!  :-DD

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Offline Halcyon

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7406 on: December 20, 2016, 03:37:08 am »
Along with all the technical data, I think you should include "real world" examples for those who either don't fully understand the technical stuff or simply don't care. For example: Device A - Run time with/without Batteriser and include actual "perfomance" figures too, so for something like a torch you might want to include a graph showing light output over time.

 

Offline SL4P

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7407 on: December 20, 2016, 05:13:50 am »
Don't tell Boob, let's see how long it takes him to spot the spelling mistake.
(We already know BatterPoo reads this site.)


I before E - except after BatterPoo.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 05:15:54 am by SL4P »
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Online FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7408 on: December 20, 2016, 06:09:48 am »
I can't find the information on the Batteroo webpage that it is not recommended to use Batteroo with LED flashlights, as it is written in the letter you get with the sleeves. Did they forget to mention this?

BTW, while searching the website, I noticed an interesting change in the FAQ about max current:

Quote
Are there limitations on devices that can use the Batteroo based on the current consumptions? No, the Batteroo sleeve is designed to only deliver as much current as a battery would supply normally

Translation from weasel speak: the regulator IC has an integrated current limiter and you are screwed if your device needs more. As the Wayback machine reveals, this sounded more optimistic some months ago:

https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20160630134320/http://batteriser.com/faq/ :
Quote
Are there limitations on devices that can use the Batteriser based on the current consumptions? No, the Batteriser sleeve is designed to deliver as much current as a battery is able to supply to the device.

PS: in 2001 batteroo.com was some (south) Korean website: https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20011117092248/http://batteroo.com:80/
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7409 on: December 20, 2016, 06:42:16 am »
Along with all the technical data, I think you should include "real world" examples for those who either don't fully understand the technical stuff or simply don't care. For example: Device A - Run time with/without Batteriser and include actual "perfomance" figures too, so for something like a torch you might want to include a graph showing light output over time.

Of course, why do you think I have that product run time spreadsheet setup.
 
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Offline ez24

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7410 on: December 20, 2016, 07:14:11 am »
I can't find the information on the Batteroo webpage that it is not recommended to use Batteroo with LED flashlights, as it is written in the letter you get with the sleeves. Did they forget to mention this?

Quote from the letter you posted:

"we do not recommend using Batteroo with LED flashlights"

This is under Passive Loads

Therefore I am afraid any testing with LED lights will be meaningless.  Stick with the MP3 player (FYI mine is 8 gb)
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Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7411 on: December 20, 2016, 09:25:40 am »
You have the best Batteroo test equipment in the world! PROBES!  :-DD

I'm not so sure. Probes might clap more ferociously with batteriser so some people would call that a win even if he clapped for half the time.

Any testing of Probes would need to count the total number of claps. Maybe you could sit him next to a microphone then record a wav file and calculate the RMS volume.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7412 on: December 20, 2016, 09:27:02 am »
"we do not recommend using Batteroo with LED flashlights"

ie. The easiest, most obvious thing that most people would test is forbidden and Bob can weasel out of any results that might involve torches.

(apart from his own torch video, obviously...)
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7413 on: December 20, 2016, 09:27:47 am »
Also I'm on the 300th page yay!  :clap: :clap:

So am I, it would seem.  Does this signify anything?



Oh, wait ....
 

Online FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7414 on: December 20, 2016, 10:02:11 am »
"we do not recommend using Batteroo with LED flashlights"

ie. The easiest, most obvious thing that most people would test is forbidden and Bob can weasel out of any results that might involve torches.

(apart from his own torch video, obviously...)

But I couldn't find this limitation on the Batteroo webpage or Indiegogo description. If I buy a product, and then I get informed of important limitations only after I got the product doesn't sound right, and even Batteroo friend Wayne did use it with torches.
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Offline Kurzweil

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7415 on: December 20, 2016, 10:08:49 am »
Dave, I think the first video should be a test that shows if the product is useful for customers and if it lives up to its claims. Nothing extremely technical. This is, after all, what it is about.The general public can use this video to determine if they want to buy the product, they cannot determine that by all sorts of technical stuff. Then, a next video could be about testing efficiency etc for the technical people.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7416 on: December 20, 2016, 10:15:37 am »
But I couldn't find this limitation on the Batteroo webpage or Indiegogo description. If I buy a product, and then I get informed of important limitations only after I got the product doesn't sound right, and even Batteroo friend Wayne did use it with torches.

I still think Wayne's torches were included in the box from Bob - they found something that actually lasted much longer by cheating (the torch was slightly current limited on Batteriser).

Do the test.

Bob can use the disclaimer to weasel but I bet a lot of these will be bought for use in torches. People need to be angry if they don't work.

 

Offline SL4P

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7417 on: December 20, 2016, 10:47:17 am »
I'm not so sure. Probes might clap more ferociously with batteriser so some people would call that a win even if he clapped for half the time.
This brings to mind the original 'Energiser' & 'Duracell' bunny ads from the 80s
That would be a great remake with two toys side-by-side, and a spoof voice-over to re-create the feeling of that original commercial.  Look, the Batterpoo bunny runs faster and harder for half as long.
Battery steroids?

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Offline samgab

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7418 on: December 20, 2016, 11:38:50 am »
The simplest possible test would be a 1.5 V (or 3V) incandescent torch bulb in a bulb holder connected to an AA or AAA cell holder. No electronics. Insert cell. Time and record with video time lapse. Repeat with batteroo'd cell, also time with time lapse. Have recording camera set with same fixed aperture in both tests. Play back both test videos side by side. See how the brightness compares visually, and see which one dims first and which bulb dies first.

 

Online FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7419 on: December 20, 2016, 12:19:52 pm »
Play back both test videos side by side. See how the brightness compares visually, and see which one dims first and which bulb dies first.
The magic of video editing, I really like this idea. The effect of the Batteroo sleeve would be obvious if you can see the lamp still glowing without the sleeve  for half of the video while the Batteroo side is dark. Don't forget to place a timer (I will use my iPhone) in the test setup as well.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7420 on: December 20, 2016, 12:24:17 pm »
Play back both test videos side by side. See how the brightness compares visually, and see which one dims first and which bulb dies first.
The magic of video editing, I really like this idea. The effect of the Batteroo sleeve would be obvious if you can see the lamp still glowing without the sleeve  for half of the video while the Batteroo side is dark. Don't forget to place a timer (I will use my iPhone) in the test setup as well.

Be sure to use fixed exposure on the camera.
 

Offline firewalker

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7421 on: December 20, 2016, 12:30:50 pm »
Just use two light bulbs and two battery holders (one with the Batteroo). No editing needed. :D :D :D

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« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 02:21:20 pm by firewalker »
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Offline madires

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7422 on: December 20, 2016, 12:32:31 pm »
I don't know if it has been covered, but could it happen that in a multi battery device one of the batteries plunges to 0V while the others keep pushing 1.5V, leading to battery failure simmilar to mixing old and new cells?

Maybe they have invented some battery neighbor discovery interface, so when 1 battery drops to 0 - it is bypassed by FET ( Schottky might have too high leakage), and the remaining battery boost to 3V now. Mixing old and new batteries this way could indeed be useful in some scenarios and provide extra capacity. Fat chance...

I don't think that mixing batteries is a good idea and the Batteroo sleeves wouldn't help either. Even with a smart bypass you'll lose 1.5V which might trigger the device's low-bat warning or cut-out voltage. Another point is the current. The sleeve with the cell nearing its end might not provide enough current to power the device. And think about the hassle to find out which cell to replace. If your device needs three AAs and you put a fresh set of AAs in, you'll replace them once when they are empty. If you are mixing cells your device stops working two times more in the same time, and you have to figure out which cell to replace.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7423 on: December 20, 2016, 01:00:12 pm »
Just use to light bulbs and two battery holder (one with the Batteroo). No editing needed. :D :D :D

Alexander.

I think the full running time might be a bit boring.  Maybe take a 5 second clip from every minute or just speed up playback.

A bit of clearly impartial editing would really be necessary for most people, but you could still have the full video available for those who want to scour every frame.
 

Offline samgab

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #7424 on: December 20, 2016, 01:17:01 pm »
Play back both test videos side by side. See how the brightness compares visually, and see which one dims first and which bulb dies first.
The magic of video editing, I really like this idea. The effect of the Batteroo sleeve would be obvious if you can see the lamp still glowing without the sleeve  for half of the video while the Batteroo side is dark. Don't forget to place a timer (I will use my iPhone) in the test setup as well.

Good one. As Dave mentioned, the fixed exposure is important, as usually the iPhone will normally adjust it's exposure so you won't be able to tell the actual relative brightness of the bulb. And to have the same ambient brightness and exposure/iso/frame rate/shutter speed/aperture in each time lapse. There are pro photog apps which you can get for the iPhone which will allow you to do this. But don't use the built in iPhone camera time lapse app. Sorry if this is all obvious to you, don't mean to tell you how to suck eggs. Look forward to seeing what you come up with.   :-+
(As was also suggested, having two bulbs and two battery holders side by side in the same shot - and starting both at the same time one with and one without a Batteroo sleeve - would save some time, but I was just afraid of detractors claiming that the two bulbs have slightly different resistance values which could make a difference to the outcome.)
Having a stopwatch, clock, or timer in the shot is important, as you mentioned.
[edit, oh I just misread the iPhone bit, that you're using the iPhone as the timer, not the video camera. Never mind, the fixed exposure stuff obviously still applies  :)]
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 01:18:42 pm by samgab »
 


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