Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 2300553 times)

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Offline RupertGo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #100 on: June 06, 2015, 12:59:08 pm »
I think they're sunk anyway. Once (if) the product gets into production, then no amount of marketing can compensate for reality and pissed-off users. It's easy enough to knock up a battery curve generator that automatically runs a variety of load scenarios - microcontroller, handful of relays - and then the truth will be out there.

 

Offline MrAl

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #101 on: June 06, 2015, 12:59:56 pm »
Why do you think this a scam? The voltage boost technology has been around for a while. The battery manufacturers are well aware of the wasted energy in their product and how to recover some of it.
The miniaturization of the circuit in this gizmo is the clincher.
The 800% battery life increase may even be true in some extreme case. We know marketing will naturally concentrate on those figures to grab the headlines. With most devices cutting out below 1V, the normal battery life extension is more likely to be around 20%, according to the Duracell constant power discharge curve.

This is an electronic blog. Someone here should have the equipment and the skills to disprove the claims with some hard testing of batteries, instead of everybody dismissing it all, out of hand.

Hi,

It's not a scam, it's all 100 percent perfectly true.  And also, i will have some of these devices modified to give you not only 800 percent battery life, but 8000 percent battery life, and i'll sell them to you for 5 bucks each, when they get through production.  If 8000 percent still isnt good enough, just let me know and i'll get you some that will give you 80000 percent over normal usage.  I'll have to charge more for those though, like 6 bucks each, simply because it takes more ink to print 80000 than it takes to print 8000, sorry.
Oh yeah before i forget, i wont tell you what voltage threshold these estimates are based on :-)

The above is all perfectly 100 percent accurate and true, but what you dont know is how the calculations are done because you dont know the target cut out voltage for a normal run of a single cell without the extra new device installed.  But if that's not to your liking, i can always lie and tell you it's 1.3 volts, if that makes you more happy.

<chuckle>

To be more serious, in my last post i did give some 'reasonable' estimates that we might see IF we had a device that cuts out at 1.3v, but as i also pointed out, i dont have any devices that cut out at 1.3v so the new Battery Thingizer WILL NOT HELP ANY of my applications at all, not one.

Now turn the voltage up to 3.5v or higher (from a single AA cell) and can i could probably use them for other things.


 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #102 on: June 06, 2015, 01:05:16 pm »
Not necessarily.
Well, actually yes. You might construct cases where the consumption is higher/smaller for a certain voltage level. But increasing the voltage level certainly won't help there.

It's possible that in normal operation you consume more than 11? but waste a portion of it on heat because the battery starts with higher voltage then the minimum required by your device.  Theoretically, an ideal DC/DC can fix that as well.
It's not clear if the debunking here is about 'breaking the laws of physics' or is just about the limitations of our current DC/DC technology.
This is a pretty bad example. Even counterproductive. You argue that the higher voltage at the begin of a battery's lifetime could be wasted due to higher currents. Well, this might be true in selected cases.
Then again the nominal voltage of a fresh alkaline cell is 1.5 V and this is exactly the voltage that this batteriser is said to deliver over the whole lifetime.
So in  cases where the higher voltage means higher losses, this device extends the issue over the whole lifetime.
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Offline Wytnucls

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #103 on: June 06, 2015, 01:05:54 pm »
I think they're sunk anyway. Once (if) the product gets into production, then no amount of marketing can compensate for reality and pissed-off users. It's easy enough to knock up a battery curve generator that automatically runs a variety of load scenarios - microcontroller, handful of relays - and then the truth will be out there.

Absolutely; if the average battery life extension turns out to be only 10-20%, depending on DC to DC efficiency, like I suspect, it may only be useful for niche applications and the general public will lose interest.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 01:14:55 pm by Wytnucls »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #104 on: June 06, 2015, 01:52:47 pm »
About the price: What kind of production numbers do you think they're targeting at? It must be huge I would say, and they already mentioned the price, so they really need a big start on their IGG campaign don't they?

No idea about numbers, but a stamped metal sheet, a thin board, and the circuit, not much in the way of huge capital required, unless they spun an ASIC or something. There might be some novel mounting tech though.
Like many Kickstarter and Indiegogo campaigns, it's not uncommon to not make a profit on the first units, the idea is to build the business up.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #105 on: June 06, 2015, 01:56:24 pm »
The 800% battery life increase may even be true in some extreme case.
As mentioned before, an increase by 800% would mean that only about 11% of the capacity would be used under normal conditions. Not taking into account efficiency etc. I guess it will be extremely difficult to find one case where this is the case.

And that's the kicker. No matter what battery you are talking about, or what product you are talking about, it all comes down to simple energy used vs energy stored in the battery.
That 800% must also include the efficiency of the converter!
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #106 on: June 06, 2015, 02:01:46 pm »
We all agree that some additional energy can be squeezed out of batteries with a boost converter. Would such a converter achieve any significant gain for the user ? Simple technical considerations show that no, unless we talk about some very rare badly designed products. Therefore their claims are false and the end-users will never get what is advertised to them. This is the definition of a scam.

It is not a scam. It just the usual BS marketing numbers making the headlines, seen it countless times before in every industry, nothing new here.
Companies are free to use words like "up to" etc, and have no real requirement to tell you what average figures you might expect in practice. Welcome to the free market. Of course, if they can't show at least one case of x8 improvement, then they might have some explaining to do.
 

Offline Grapsus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #107 on: June 06, 2015, 04:13:01 pm »
Ok, let's call it BS marketing. But who are they trying to fool here ? The first disappointed customers will tell it everywhere and nobody will buy the thing ever again. Since their strategy cannot lead to a happy growing customer base, I wonder if the real goal is not about impressing investors in order to get a big founding round...

Wytnucls just says enough to get everyone going into explaining the thing again and again and then he replies totally ignoring everything that has been said to keep the controversy going. Totally classic troll, don't waste your time.

Typical ad hominem statement. Come up with real physics instead. All my posts are backed up by Duracell graphs and application notes. You obviously didn't bother to read or grasp any of it.

Ok, sorry, I might have  been carried away.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #108 on: June 06, 2015, 04:20:12 pm »
Ok, let's call it BS marketing. But who are they trying to fool here ? The first disappointed customers will tell it everywhere and nobody will buy the thing ever again. Since their strategy cannot lead to a happy growing customer base, I wonder if the real goal is not about impressing investors in order to get a big founding round...
If that would be true, then there would not be any "snake oil" around.
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Offline Ian.M

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #109 on: June 06, 2015, 04:23:37 pm »
How to profit from a silicon snake-oil gadget:

* Get it prominent in the media.
* Get it on the market in November.
* Get it in all the pre-Christmas gadget magazines and catalogs.
* Sell hundreds of thousands of units to non-techies looking for Christmas presents.
* Discount it heavily in the January sales to clear remaining stock.
* Fold the company 1st February before most dissatisfied customers have got round to returning it.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #110 on: June 06, 2015, 04:31:58 pm »
Ok, let's call it BS marketing. But who are they trying to fool here ? The first disappointed customers will tell it everywhere and nobody will buy the thing ever again. Since their strategy cannot lead to a happy growing customer base, I wonder if the real goal is not about impressing investors in order to get a big founding round...

I get the feeling it's the electronics equivalent of ab-ductors, magnetic bracelets, cervical pillows, etc.

Get in there, sell the first few million as fast as possible, pocket the profit, close the company, start a new one with a different name...lather, rinse, repeat. Whoever does it first/most often gets the most money.

 

Offline MrAl

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #111 on: June 06, 2015, 05:49:28 pm »
We all agree that some additional energy can be squeezed out of batteries with a boost converter. Would such a converter achieve any significant gain for the user ? Simple technical considerations show that no, unless we talk about some very rare badly designed products. Therefore their claims are false and the end-users will never get what is advertised to them. This is the definition of a scam.



It is not a scam. It just the usual BS marketing numbers making the headlines, seen it countless times before in every industry, nothing new here.
Companies are free to use words like "up to" etc, and have no real requirement to tell you what average figures you might expect in practice. Welcome to the free market. Of course, if they can't show at least one case of x8 improvement, then they might have some explaining to do.


Hello there,

That's the thing that bothers me the most.  Since the percentage is just the total energy divided by the used energy, all we have to do is choose the voltage cutout threshold we want and we can claim 800 percent, 8000 percent, you name it :-)

To the other poster:
I think that negative publicity only works for actors, not for electronic products.
Everything in this thread is well deserved negative publicity.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 05:51:17 pm by MrAl »
 

Offline Poe

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #112 on: June 06, 2015, 06:29:35 pm »
So my camera eats a new battery every eight minutes.

I put this on a dead battery get an hour of run time?

That's what they're saying right?
 

Offline zapta

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #113 on: June 06, 2015, 06:45:35 pm »
You argue that the higher voltage at the begin of a battery's lifetime could be wasted due to higher currents. Well, this might be true in selected cases.

'selected' is a loaded word. I would say in 'some' cases.


Then again the nominal voltage of a fresh alkaline cell is 1.5 V and this is exactly the voltage that this batteriser is said to deliver over the whole lifetime.
So in  cases where the higher voltage means higher losses, this device extends the issue over the whole lifetime.

I don't know what exactly this product does but maintaining a let's say 1.2V level throughout the life of the battery may save energy also during the high voltage period.

'Consumed' is different that 'needed'. Ideally the device should spread the charge to provide the 'needed' power for as long as possible.  I don't think the video touched on that aspect.

Drain the swamp.
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #114 on: June 06, 2015, 07:18:55 pm »
I don't know what exactly this product does...
Which would however help to participate in a discussion about this very product.

... but maintaining a let's say 1.2V level throughout the life of the battery may save energy also during the high voltage period.
But this is quite the opposite of what it does. If you would have taken the time to either watch Dave's rant or visit their webpage, you would have found out that they argue that "most/all" devices don't work after a level of 1.3V. Therefore this things boosts up the voltage to 1.5V.

'Consumed' is different that 'needed'. Ideally the device should spread the charge to provide the 'needed' power for as long as possible.  I don't think the video touched on that aspect.
Why would it? It's a simple boost converter with a fixed 1.5V output. What you imply is that the thing magically knows what would be the best voltage level for the device you put it in. Even if this would be possible in theory, it's definitely nothing to expect from a $2.50 device that fits on top of an AA battery.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline ez24

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #115 on: June 06, 2015, 07:24:39 pm »
1. What's the going rate for a professor?  In the 70s one asked me for $2000 (under the table) in order for me to sell my product at his school and I did not want to pay it, so I lost my business.  And to be honest to this day, I wonder where I would be if I had paid him the money.  Professors are people and like people, some can be bought.

2.  The last video shows them telling people it is to be placed on a dead battery, so depending on the cost, I assume most will be happy to just get a few more minutes of use out of a battery (especially if they do not have a spare).

My guess is they will drop the 800% crap.

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Offline lewis

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #116 on: June 06, 2015, 07:36:27 pm »
If I was designing this thing I would only have the boost converter operating when the battery voltage dropped to, say, 1.1-1.2V. That would drastically improve system efficiency by negating almost all the quiescent current when the battery is fully charged. It's not difficult to do, turn the lower MOSFET off, and keep the synchronous MOSFET on (it would need one hell of a low Vgs).

I can see this improving battery life to some extent, maybe not quite the 800% claimed, but probably enough to pay for itself a few times over during its lifetime given its low cost. Which in my book makes it a fairly decent product, worth a punt.

Point taken about battery life being a valuable marketing feature so manufacturers would include a boost converter in their products anyway. But manufacturers can 'exaggerate' battery life claims for free, it costs money to put boost converters in products.
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Offline ivan747

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #117 on: June 06, 2015, 07:37:58 pm »
I have a better idea, an actual improvement on this product. Instead of having it supply 1.5V 100% of the time, just let the DC-DC converter bypassed until the battery drops below, say 1.1V, then start the boost and keep the voltage on 1.1V until it drops dead. It's basically artificially modifying the discharge curve of the battery to take advantage of the energy at low voltages.

I, Ivan Veloz hereby claim my invention to be mine.  ;D Oh snap!
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 07:41:45 pm by ivan747 »
Nothing like the smell of rosin core solder in the morning.
"Could you not use some of that crowdfunded $1.5 million to hire a graphic designer who understands perspective?" -Delta
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Offline lewis

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #118 on: June 06, 2015, 07:40:53 pm »
I have a better idea

Beat you to it
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Offline ivan747

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #119 on: June 06, 2015, 07:41:30 pm »
I have a better idea

Beat you to it

Oh snap! Ready for some collaboration?  ;D
Nothing like the smell of rosin core solder in the morning.
"Could you not use some of that crowdfunded $1.5 million to hire a graphic designer who understands perspective?" -Delta
"A soldering station I bought once had a sticker on it that said, I shit you not, 'QENUINE'." -c4757p
 

Offline lewis

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #120 on: June 06, 2015, 07:44:09 pm »
Patent it quick!
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Offline hikariuk

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #121 on: June 06, 2015, 09:09:04 pm »
I dunno, I think they'll try to productise it through crowd-funding

Yes, the article says they will be putting it on Indiegogo.
Not sure why they don't use Kickstarter? they obviously have a real prototype, so satisfies the requirement.

Only reason I can think of is that Indiegogo, iirc, lets you receive funds even if your goal isn't reached.
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #122 on: June 06, 2015, 09:15:42 pm »
As Dave already mentioned, they won't have any problems reaching whatever goal they establish, so I don't think they'll need IGG flexible funding.

Maybe IGG takes a lower cut?
 

Offline zapta

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #123 on: June 06, 2015, 09:26:49 pm »
Why would it? It's a simple boost converter with a fixed 1.5V output.

That's a guess based on sketchy marketing material.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #124 on: June 06, 2015, 10:51:13 pm »
That's a guess based on sketchy marketing material.
Well, it's a pretty good guess though. They claim that most device will not work if the battery voltage drops below 1.4 or 1.3V.
Then they show you how with their batteriser, all devices display full battery again. Which is 1.5V for alkalines.
We don't want to nitpick here if they use 1.45V or 1.55V, but it will be something around 1.5V.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 


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