Author Topic: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown  (Read 14262 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« on: July 30, 2015, 12:09:48 am »
Teardown of the new INDUAL 80W industrial LED high bay ceiling light from Lightinstar
http://www.lightinstar.com/Pro/index/id/6.html
In particular a close-up look at the 150W 12x12 Chip-On-Board COB LED module from HongliTronic
http://en.honglitronic.com/
http://www.eevblog.com/files/HongliTronic-COB-150W.pdf
UPDATE: Yes, they say they have fixed the issues of mounting and earthing.

 

Offline nitro2k01

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2015, 02:00:21 am »
The occasional splash and condensation? IP66 is the next to highest IP marking. If the marking is accurate, the case should handle just about anything but permanent water immersion.

I noticed a small slip of the tongue. You're referring to the beam angle as "degrees C". Out of habit I guess. Just a note.

I would perhaps have noted that the LED module was attached with two different kinds of screws. Doesn't have to be a problem but why would they do it? Because they had a pile of screws left over and wanted to use them evenly?

I'm starting to think you should try to scout for some sort of xray machine, just like Mike. Might come in handy in situations like this one.

I recently watched a video by bigclivedotcom about the LED modules. Apparently, some of them have a certain percentage of broken individual LEDs which have a parallel resistance due to imperfections. You don't really notice this at higher currents where the diode characteristic dominates, even though the resistance still wastes energy as heat. You can detect it by driving the LED and gradually increasing the drive current and seeing when various rows turn on. That might be something to try.

« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 02:02:26 am by nitro2k01 »
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Online Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2015, 02:14:15 am »
The lack of earthing to the enclosure would, I believe, be acceptable.. if they hadn't compromised the double-insulated wiring. If they restored the reinforced insulation there, that enclosure could float all it likes.
 

Offline pattyrice

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2015, 02:37:14 am »
I'm sceptical of significant unmatched current across the parallel led strings. I want to test the current of each led string, but those bond wires are quite small to get a current meter in there. Is there another way to measure the current? An idea is to cut each gold wire and carefully under a microscope solder on a 0603-0805 current shunt resistor from the pad to the gold wire.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2015, 02:45:39 am »
I'm starting to think you should try to scout for some sort of xray machine, just like Mike. Might come in handy in situations like this one.

They apparently are not legal in this country, you need a permit, and can only sell 2nd hand to others with permits etc.

 

Offline Tek_TDS220

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2015, 03:29:01 am »
I'm not sure I believe the explanation at the end regarding the loose power supply.  Why would they put double-sided tape on it instead of simply bolting it down if it was designed to be bolted down?  Why isn't the case properly grounded if it was designed that way? 

Even if it is a prototype, why would they ship it to you?  During shipment, the power supply could bang into the mains wiring and cut the insulation, shorting it to the case.  Lots of bad things could happen.  It's not the way to advertise a product.  It's shocking (figuratively and possibly literally).
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 03:31:25 am by Tek_TDS220 »
 

Offline Someone

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2015, 03:38:16 am »
The lack of earthing to the enclosure would, I believe, be acceptable.. if they hadn't compromised the double-insulated wiring. If they restored the reinforced insulation there, that enclosure could float all it likes.
Welcome to Australia where its all crazy and upside down, it cannot be double insulated equipment while having an earthing conductor, if the earthing conductor is present it must be a class I device and all accessible conductive surfaces earthed.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2015, 05:00:05 am »
I recently watched a video by bigclivedotcom about the LED modules. Apparently, some of them have a certain percentage of broken individual LEDs which have a parallel resistance due to imperfections. You don't really notice this at higher currents where the diode characteristic dominates, even though the resistance still wastes energy as heat. You can detect it by driving the LED and gradually increasing the drive current and seeing when various rows turn on. That might be something to try.


I bought a 100W LED for $10 on Amazon and unlike the ebay specials, it only had a slight imbalance. More than good enough for my application, which was a high frequency strobe.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2015, 09:34:23 am »
Am I the only person thinking "Don't take it apart, turn it on!!!"?


« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 09:39:23 am by Fungus »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2015, 09:53:18 am »
I recently watched a video by bigclivedotcom about the LED modules. Apparently, some of them have a certain percentage of broken individual LEDs which have a parallel resistance due to imperfections. You don't really notice this at higher currents where the diode characteristic dominates, even though the resistance still wastes energy as heat. You can detect it by driving the LED and gradually increasing the drive current and seeing when various rows turn on. That might be something to try.
I got some 10W LEDs last week. I bought two small batches to see if they were different and did the "Big Clive" test.

One batch was perfect. One batch wasn't. They both cost about the same on eBay. Go figure.

PS: The good ones came in individual bags. The 'bad' ones were just rolled up in a piece of foam.


« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 10:06:42 am by Fungus »
 

Offline adam1213

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2015, 09:58:03 am »
The video starts with "Welcome to tear down Tuesday" - Its not exactly Tuesday :O
Dave - keep up the great work. I realise you may have shot this early in the week or been working on other things.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2015, 10:00:55 am »
I like how the screws holding the LED to the heatsink don't match.    :popcorn:

And look at that soldering! First day on the job?

Edit: Fluke 27 sighted at 22:40!

« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 10:16:38 am by Fungus »
 

Offline Refrigerator

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2015, 10:41:14 am »
Quote
105oC viewing angle
That one cracked me up. ;D
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Offline mux

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2015, 10:41:52 am »
As far as regulatory problems go with that dodgy PSU connection: Yes, it's completely against IP-rating certification and they will never get this properly rated with this construction. This is, as far as IP-ratings is concerned, an IP21 enclosure (the highest rating that doesn't require positive earth case connections).

But, more importantly: That silicone 'seal' is NOT an acceptable seal. It has to be a greased o-ring or deep finger silicone seal for it to count for IP rating. Silicone glue or hot glue seals creep over time and will not hold!

However, as far as laws are concerned: you can sell anything that is made from standard components and fairly competently put together. Most countries don't really have much in the way of regulations other than self-certification stuff for these goods.

Source: in the process of self-certifying for the European market myself :P
 

Online dr.diesel

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2015, 10:47:06 am »
A company sent Dave something and didn't think he'd take it apart?   :-//    :-DD

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2015, 11:02:46 am »
A company sent Dave something and didn't think he'd take it apart?   :-//    :-DD
Apparently so.

In the youtube comments he says, "Sent something to Dave. Didn't know he would open it up..."

 :palm:
 

Offline lapm

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2015, 11:38:57 am »
Somehow comical that they design nice led light and then they forget to bolt down power supply.. :P And its not like they just forgot to screw it in, there's no mounting brackets for screws either in case...

Almost as if someone went: they use external power supply with this fixture...
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Offline Rasz

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2015, 02:26:36 pm »
so to sum it all up:
-mismatched screws, maybe recycled?
-no real seal
-FAKE power supply box made to look like a radiator for power supply
-'made for Australian market' illegal to sell in Australia due to code violations
-real power supply lose in the box, can cut into wires with time

one thing is missing, Dave powering those leds from lab supply and checking uniformity, they might be fished from the waste bin to match overall product 'quality'

Dave you got that last point backwards, if they didnt know it was for you and it looks like that it doesnt mean its an outlier, it means this is the usual quality.
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Offline AF6LJ

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2015, 02:31:29 pm »
So I have to ask;
What is the RF radiation situation like with these lamps,. how much conducted and radiated RF (EM) is there?

Every time I find a decent LED light source ether it or its power supply is about as dirty as restaurant dumpster.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2015, 03:52:55 pm »
-mismatched screws, maybe recycled?
Nothing wrong with that from an environmental viewpoint.
 

Offline Poe

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2015, 11:20:53 pm »


How do these things compare to metal halide HID\CMH and other industrial lamp tech like sulfur and/or induction? 

I have five MH old-school lamps to replace and I was going to go the LED route, but not sure. 

Does anyone have any first hand experience with a similar LED fixture supplier they could recommend?
 

Offline EvilGeniusSkis

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2015, 04:51:05 am »
Quote
105oC viewing angle
That one cracked me up. ;D
+1 to that.
 

Offline BobC

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2015, 09:36:24 am »
I'm starting to think you should try to scout for some sort of xray machine, just like Mike. Might come in handy in situations like this one.
They apparently are not legal in this country, you need a permit, and can only sell 2nd hand to others with permits etc.
Here are the exemptions to Aussi X-Ray (ionizing radiation) regulations: See Part 4 of http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/maintop/view/inforce/subordleg+52+2013+cd+0+N

It looks like all CRT tubes are exempted.  CRTs are great generators of low-energy X-Rays, which is why the face is made of leaded glass (for viewer shielding).

For electrostatic deflection CRTs, a neat trick is to intentionally impact the beam on one of the deflector plates.  Depending on the impact site and angle, it is sometimes possible to produce a nice X-Ray stream exiting somewhere on the opposite side of the tube.  But you will need to crank the KV way up (60-200 KV) and the amperage way down.  And periodically move the impact point to avoid burning a hole.

But a more practical approach is to simply buy an X-Ray tube.  eBay is your friend:  There's a bloke in Iowa who will gladly ship Down Under: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/C-E-I-X-Ray-Tube-OX-70-g4-Brand-New-/231619642943?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35ed9b463f

Striking an arc from any 60-200 KV source will create X-Rays.  Ideally, the arc will be in a vacuum to limit copious UV and ozone production from an air-gap.  Tungsten is the best anode material due to its ability to handle localized heating without melting.

Note:  X-Rays are generally classified as "soft" (10-50 KV) and "hard" (60-200+ KV).  Soft X-Rays are safest (less ionizing and less penetrating), but they tend to scatter more easily, meaning images may be both dimmer and fuzzier.  In cases where the target can't be right against the phosphor screen, or is relatively dense, hard X-Rays will yield much better images.  A good compromise is around 80-90 KV.

Once you have an X-Ray source and something you want an image of (the "target"), the next step is to find a way to convert he X-Rays passing through the target into an image.

For hobby use, the simplest target is a phosphor sheet, where the phosphor is X-Ray sensitive (not uncommon).  Ideally, the phosphor will have a visible light emission curve with a time constant of single-digit milliseconds.  The reason for these specific characteristics comes from a chain of reasoning that starts with how X-Rays are best generated from ad hoc sources: As very brief  but intense pulses well separated in time.  This is needed to limit localized cathode heating and thus keep the X-Rays sharply focused.  It also keeps the dose rate extremely low while still permitting excellent images to be generated.

Commercially, such phosphor sheets may be called "X-Ray intensifier screens" or "X-Ray scintillator screens".

A camera is aimed at the fluorescent sheet, and an exposure is taken for every X-Ray pulse. The exposure start is delayed from the X-Ray pulse by the fluorescence latency of the phosphor, and the exposure duration is limited to the maximum expected glow rise and decay time (which can be calculated, but is best determined experimentally).  Most consumer cameras with external shutter releases can be configured to capture excellent X-Ray images.

Many images will be needed, since each pulse contains relatively few X-Ray photons, even fewer of which will pass through the target.  This means hundreds or thousands of pulses (and exposures) may be needed to generate a final high-contrast image.  The image processing techniques used to combine the individual exposures are straightforward, and are well documented online.  For a dense target, millions of X-Ray pulses may be needed, and combining them becomes a bit trickier, since stray image artifacts due to camera sensor shot noise, cosmic rays, and normal ambient background radioactivity would need to be corrected for.

It is certainly possible to create home X-Ray images both legally and safely (the main worry is HV, not X-Rays).  And it is great training in both scientific investigation and engineering processes, since it is simple enough to get "interesting" initial results, but very demanding to get high-quality results.

BTW, pretty much any "continuous" X-Ray tube can be operated in pulse mode.  And by some definitions, "continuous" may be pulsed at any rate above 25 Hz (continuous to the human eye).  So be sure to read the find print.

Update: Here's a really simple DIY 100 KV pulse generator:
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 09:43:53 am by BobC »
 

Offline station240

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2015, 06:37:29 am »
I got some 10W LEDs last week. I bought two small batches to see if they were different and did the "Big Clive" test.

One batch was perfect. One batch wasn't. They both cost about the same on eBay. Go figure.

PS: The good ones came in individual bags. The 'bad' ones were just rolled up in a piece of foam.

The good ones come from the factory, the bad ones come from the factory's dumpster. When they both end up at the Shenzhen markets, the cruddy one is the same price as whoever got it doesn't know what it's worth.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2015, 08:00:05 am »
I got some 10W LEDs last week. I bought two small batches to see if they were different and did the "Big Clive" test.

One batch was perfect. One batch wasn't. They both cost about the same on eBay. Go figure.
The good ones come from the factory, the bad ones come from the factory's dumpster. When they both end up at the Shenzhen markets, the cruddy one is the same price as whoever got it doesn't know what it's worth.
Yep, and that's why I wouldn't recommend a particular seller. With most sellers you'll get whatever the seller can find at the market that particular day. None of them give you any guarantees (and nobody would believe them if they did).

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2015, 10:20:33 am »
Once you have an X-Ray source and something you want an image of (the "target"), the next step is to find a way to convert he X-Rays passing through the target into an image.

Plus a ton of time to much around building, troubleshooting and testing something. That's not going to happen.
I have been offered access to a high end xray machine if needed. But it's not like I can just scoot next door and use it.
 

Offline Rasz

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2015, 12:46:19 pm »
I got some 10W LEDs last week. I bought two small batches to see if they were different and did the "Big Clive" test.

One batch was perfect. One batch wasn't. They both cost about the same on eBay. Go figure.

PS: The good ones came in individual bags. The 'bad' ones were just rolled up in a piece of foam.

The good ones come from the factory, the bad ones come from the factory's dumpster. When they both end up at the Shenzhen markets, the cruddy one is the same price as whoever got it doesn't know what it's worth.

Its much more nuanced than that.
There are no factory dumpsters in China :) Everything is sold, rejects are labelled as second grade and bought by same people buying normal product. They end up next to each other on the shelf, final price difference (if any) depends on your relationship with particular seller. No relationship means you get the fake/rejected ones, good relationship gets you rejects at a steep discount. Being an ebay reseller you dont give a toss about quality, only price matters. $.02 too high and listing gets pushed to second page = nothing moves. This means you buy real product only when rejects run out.
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Offline apis

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2015, 08:28:56 pm »
Its much more nuanced than that.
There are no factory dumpsters in China :) Everything is sold, rejects are labelled as second grade and bought by same people buying normal product. <...>
How do you know?
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2015, 09:19:01 pm »
Once you have an X-Ray source and something you want an image of (the "target"), the next step is to find a way to convert he X-Rays passing through the target into an image.
Plus a ton of time to much around building, troubleshooting and testing something. That's not going to happen.
I have been offered access to a high end xray machine if needed. But it's not like I can just scoot next door and use it.
The people at DEFCON recommend making friends with a dentist.

 

Offline Rasz

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Re: EEVblog #773 - 80W INDUAL LED Light Teardown
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2015, 11:09:15 pm »
Its much more nuanced than that.
There are no factory dumpsters in China :) Everything is sold, rejects are labelled as second grade and bought by same people buying normal product. <...>
How do you know?

good shenzhen guide
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