Author Topic: EEVblog #777 - Keithley 177 Microvolt DMM Repair  (Read 42165 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37730
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #777 - Keithley 177 Microvolt DMM Repair
« Reply #75 on: August 10, 2015, 07:02:52 am »
Personally, though, as soon as I saw the creeping display and the correlation with changing ranges, I was thinking "faulty switches". But that's because I've seen a multimeter with a dodgy range switch do the same exact thing to me, so I'm lucky there (it was a cheapie chinese one, but the same principle applies). Experienced troubleshooters (especially of test equipment) will have the right hunches to save time, and you can't blame Dave for not having that. But knowing how to divide and conquer doesn't require experience, it's the basics, and I really feel that's where he messed up the procedure.

As I've said before, if I wasn't shooting the video and yapping, I probably wasted 5 real-world minutes worth of troubleshooting before I came to conclusion it was likely the switches. Bugger all really.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37730
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #777 - Keithley 177 Microvolt DMM Repair
« Reply #76 on: August 10, 2015, 07:04:15 am »
Well, Murphy or not, if you do eventually tackle these scopes PSU and processor boards, and you do some really careful, methodical step-by-step how-to videos covering the restoration process, I guarantee you that those repair videos will be some of your most popular.

Sorry, but nope, you'd be wrong.
 

Offline marcan

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 80
  • If it ain't broke I'll fix it anyway.
    • My blog
Re: EEVblog #777 - Keithley 177 Microvolt DMM Repair
« Reply #77 on: August 10, 2015, 07:16:16 am »
As I've said before, if I wasn't shooting the video and yapping, I probably wasted 5 real-world minutes worth of troubleshooting before I came to conclusion it was likely the switches. Bugger all really.
Just because of the time it takes to shoot the video, or because it would've changed your process?

If it would've changed your process then that makes sense. Why though? Honest question here, does doing it as a video blog change the way you approach the problem? I'm not a video blogger so I wouldn't know, I'm curious.

But if you'd followed the same process then I feel you would've still wasted 15-30 minutes on the ADC; you did go through the trouble of checking datasheets and schematics and a bunch of passives around it after all. Not that it's the end of the world in time wasted anyway, and of course hindsight is 20/20 and the collective mob of the internet is always going to be better at everything than you are, so don't take it too seriously; just trying to offer some input here on what I think is the approach that would've saved some time.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37730
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #777 - Keithley 177 Microvolt DMM Repair
« Reply #78 on: August 10, 2015, 08:19:57 am »
Just because of the time it takes to shoot the video, or because it would've changed your process?

Both.

Quote
If it would've changed your process then that makes sense. Why though? Honest question here, does doing it as a video blog change the way you approach the problem? I'm not a video blogger so I wouldn't know, I'm curious.

It can, yes, even if just subconciously, as I've explained in previous posts in this thread.

Quote
But if you'd followed the same process then I feel you would've still wasted 15-30 minutes on the ADC; you did go through the trouble of checking datasheets and schematics and a bunch of passives around it after all.

I had the datasheets and other stuff printed in anticipation.
Actual testing would have taken maybe 5 minutes if I just followed that procedure.

Quote
just trying to offer some input here on what I think is the approach that would've saved some time.

Of course, thanks. And I'm just trying to explain to people why I may have done things the way I did. What makes it into the video is never the whole story.
 

Offline Tothwolf

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 95
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #777 - Keithley 177 Microvolt DMM Repair
« Reply #79 on: August 10, 2015, 09:35:27 am »
Well, Murphy or not, if you do eventually tackle these scopes PSU and processor boards, and you do some really careful, methodical step-by-step how-to videos covering the restoration process, I guarantee you that those repair videos will be some of your most popular.

Sorry, but nope, you'd be wrong.

Well, I could be wrong, but unless you give it a shot, we'll never know.  :-/O

I really do think there is demand for a series of repair videos for the 24x5 series scopes. Lately there have been pretty much daily discussions about repairing Tektronix 2465 and 2445 scopes on the tekscopes email list, and I'm not aware of anyone previously having done a comprehensive repair video series on them.

To clarify though, I wasn't saying that a 24x5 repair video would be your most popular video ever (the Solar Roadways videos were your most popular, weren't they?) but I do think a series covering the 24x5 scopes could over time become some of your more popular electronics repair videos...

If you are like me, your time is your most valuable commodity, so how about this...if it would help with eventually getting to the point where you could make videos about the 24x5 scopes, I'm willing to put in a few afternoons or whatever to help work up a parts list and source the parts needed for the PSU and processor boards (and if that works out and you get some functioning scopes, then the Tektronix-specific covers and mechanical parts).

I've got somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 to-do electronics repair/restoration projects of my own (those are just the ones I've put into a spreadsheet and filed parts bags for), but if you want to have David get in contact with me and send me some photos of the PSU and processor boards in your particular scopes (I have a 2465B, which will be similar to your scopes, but there were a number of different revisions of the boards), I'm willing to help with parts sourcing.

Anyhow, I think that's all I can really offer on the 24x5 scopes, so if it's still a "no" on the possibility of eventual 24x5 videos, and those two scopes are destined just to be non-functional background decoration forever, then I won't comment on them again.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37730
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #777 - Keithley 177 Microvolt DMM Repair
« Reply #80 on: August 10, 2015, 10:13:20 am »
Well, I could be wrong, but unless you give it a shot, we'll never know.  :-/O

After having created over 800 videos and spent 6 years watching the stats and reading every comment, I'm pretty confident it won't be worth the time and effort vs return for views. If that's all I was after of course.

Quote
I really do think there is demand for a series of repair videos for the 24x5 series scopes.
Lately there have been pretty much daily discussions about repairing Tektronix 2465 and 2445 scopes on the tekscopes email list, and I'm not aware of anyone previously having done a comprehensive repair video series on them.

I'm afraid that list amounts to a hill of beans in the scheme of views.
I have no doubt it would be popular amongst them, but to the general audience a series like that is not going to be hugely popular I'm afraid. Especially given the time and effort investment required, and the risk of it not working out well. I do not like committing myself to a series like that, and it is not my usual workflow nor style to work on videos in the background for months and then produced a polished repair video (that could be reasonably popular, but no more so than other repair videos).

Quote
If you are like me, your time is your most valuable commodity, so how about this...if it would help with eventually getting to the point where you could make videos about the 24x5 scopes, I'm willing to put in a few afternoons or whatever to help work up a parts list and source the parts needed for the PSU and processor boards (and if that works out and you get some functioning scopes, then the Tektronix-specific covers and mechanical parts).

Thanks for the offer but I'm afraid I cannot commit the time and effort required for this.
I have countless other videos and things I'd rather do instead of this, and ultimately for every video I do it comes down to motivation to do it, and as such a series like this barely registers on my interest list at present.
There is also so much I'd have to learn about Tek scopes in order to not look like a fool to the Tek repair email list crowd. I can't imagine the furore if I got some obvious things wrong.
And honestly, making a video for that kind of niche Tek fanboy crowd is like making a teardown video on a vintage *insert brand* computer. There are just so many people all too willing to scream that I got this and that wrong, I don't know squat about *insert brand* etc.  As a content producer I would not be honest if I said that kind of stuff doesn't sit in the back of my mind, and plays a part in the motivation required to do a video on something. It's not fear of course, it's one of motiviation.

If I thought the Tek scopes might be fixable fairly easily in a day then I'd of course have a shot at them. But my spidey sense tells me they won't be. And it might be well and good to "have a crack", I'd have to be willing to take the heat for potentially not finishing it, not producing follow-up's in timely enough fashion etc, like has happened with other videos.
Maybe I will, maybe I won't, but at this stage it's a no I'm afraid.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 10:19:22 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline Old Fart Analog Engineer

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 12
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #777 - Keithley 177 Microvolt DMM Repair
« Reply #81 on: August 10, 2015, 03:03:25 pm »
Quote
Quote from Tothwolf
First, silver oxide is not an insulator. Silver oxide is very conductive and tarnished silver contacts by themselves are usually not a problem.

You are right, silver oxide is not an insulator, just a lousy conductor, and is the problem.  For those wanting to know how bad a conductor and why (CAUTION, heavy duty reading, links download PDFs): http://www.te.com/documentation/whitepapers/pdf/Ag_use_connectors_503-1016.pdfhttp://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/1450-5339/2012/1450-53391200013C.pdfhttps://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEIQFjADahUKEwiAjPyJuZ3HAhWVNYgKHfRWAR4&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mdpi.com%2F2075-4701%2F2%2F4%2F450%2Fpdf&ei=YwnIVcDOEJXroAT0rYXwAQ&usg=AFQjCNEU7_04rfokdHM8WGsHpIor1bs82w&sig2=IYjsAjjdZWOWEC2RQ4XWSA,

Quote
Quote from Tothwolf
Second, silicone grease should never be used anywhere near electrical switch and relay contacts. Western Electric / Bell System and others all learned this the hard way back in the day with their electromechanical telephone exchange switches. When used in or near switch contacts which interrupt current, any arcing can cause the silicone to break down into silicon-carbide,

"Dry" switching as in the Fluke meter, and other similar small small signal, low current or "logic" switching applications, involve perhaps nano Amps and do not "Arc" like 48 - 90+ volt into a nominal 600 Ohm load POTS telephone central office switches.

Quote
Quote from Tothwolf
(Older formulations of QD Electronic Cleaner contained Naphtha and Methanol instead of the Ethanol.)

According to CRC's currently posted Safety Data, sheet both are 60-80% Naptha.

The switches in the Fluke are not of the Schadow / Alps type, which have flat contacts.  They have round terminals and a unique moving contact which is much better than the flat Schadow terminals and moving contact.  The round post switches were originally from France and were distributed in the US by Centralab.  I designed audio test equipment in the 70's and used them extensively, but paid extra for the gold plating. Never had any issues (though after > decade of heavy use, the Gold eventually wore off).  If this type of switch has flat terminals, it will eventually fail.   In the 70's, Alps (Schadow's licensee) improved the moving contact's shape (added 3 contact dimples) and stiffened the springs because these were used by Pioneer and Harmon-Kardon Stereos and were noisily failing within two years in customers stereo receivers.  Pioneer even had a spare parts kit of the plungers with new contacts, all pre-greased with silicone grease as a repair part. 

I can't recall the French company's name and Google can't find it either.  If anyone knows, please tell me.  Thanks

OFAE
 

Offline ferdinandkeil

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 10
Re: EEVblog #777 - Keithley 177 Microvolt DMM Repair
« Reply #82 on: August 10, 2015, 04:57:01 pm »
I have a Keithley 177 that I got on eBay for next to nothing - of course it was acting up and I didn't come around to fixing it. So finally, after seeing this video I started working on it again, and what do you know, some contact cleaner later and now it's working on most ranges. So thanks a bunch  :-+

I still have to figure out what's wrong with the 20 to 1000 V ranges. They all use the รท10 circuit, so that's likely the culprit. I'm still pretty happy anyway as it's working just fine on the other ranges and appears to be still in cal.

Also props to MBY cleaning up the schematic  :-+
 

Offline Tothwolf

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 95
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #777 - Keithley 177 Microvolt DMM Repair
« Reply #83 on: August 11, 2015, 03:57:23 am »
After having created over 800 videos and spent 6 years watching the stats and reading every comment, I'm pretty confident it won't be worth the time and effort vs return for views. If that's all I was after of course.

Of course. I'm sure some of it is also the fun that comes from making these videos and then seeing people enjoy them.

Quote
I'm afraid that list amounts to a hill of beans in the scheme of views.
I have no doubt it would be popular amongst them, but to the general audience a series like that is not going to be hugely popular I'm afraid. Especially given the time and effort investment required, and the risk of it not working out well. I do not like committing myself to a series like that, and it is not my usual workflow nor style to work on videos in the background for months and then produced a polished repair video (that could be reasonably popular, but no more so than other repair videos).

I agree that it might not be your usual off-the-cuff style, but occasionally mixing things up a little with a different or more complex repair project might work out pretty well too. I think most of your viewers (or at least those of us who have tackled these sort of projects) would understand that a video covering something like this would require some additional pre-planning.

What I was trying to suggest though is rather than going into it only with the expectation of a fully working scope at the end, is to break it down into individual sections, each of which can stand on its own. If at the very end (whenever that is) you wind up with a fully functional scope, all the better, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the end-goal.

For example, the single most common problem with these scopes is their PSU, which can be rebuilt and tested separately from the scope itself, so even if the scope has other problems, you could still tackle the PSU first in a standalone video. One community member has even been assembling dummy loads, and since you have two PSUs to potentially restore, something like that might be a worthwhile investment.

If either scope has the later processor board with the 4 small SMD electrolytics that leak, that could make for a video which covers the removal of those capacitors and repair of the board. If you already have a known working PSU, you might even be able to fold this into a video along with the Dallas NVRAM module issue and potential loss of cal data, if either of the boards have a Dallas module and the internal battery has died.

The same goes for the U800 horizontal amplifier IC (the large DIP package with the metal tab). Certain production versions of those chips suffered early thermal-related failures, but there is a good chance that your scopes do not even have this problem. If they did however, there are repair (155-0241-02 Re-Bake) and replacement options.

Anyhow...I'm probably going into way too much detail here, but you probably get the idea.

Quote
Thanks for the offer but I'm afraid I cannot commit the time and effort required for this.
I have countless other videos and things I'd rather do instead of this, and ultimately for every video I do it comes down to motivation to do it, and as such a series like this barely registers on my interest list at present.
There is also so much I'd have to learn about Tek scopes in order to not look like a fool to the Tek repair email list crowd. I can't imagine the furore if I got some obvious things wrong.

Unless you repair a specific widget regularly, it is basically impossible not to make at least one mistake. I think if you were to break the 24x5 scope restoration down into smaller parts though you'd find it really wouldn't be that bad.

Quote
And honestly, making a video for that kind of niche Tek fanboy crowd is like making a teardown video on a vintage *insert brand* computer. There are just so many people all too willing to scream that I got this and that wrong, I don't know squat about *insert brand* etc.  As a content producer I would not be honest if I said that kind of stuff doesn't sit in the back of my mind, and plays a part in the motivation required to do a video on something. It's not fear of course, it's one of motiviation.

Pfft...since when do you care what the fanboys think? ;)

In all serious though, I get that. I also think the Tektronix community and other electronic test equipment communities would be very forgiving of any mistakes you might make since you don't service this stuff on a regular basis. No matter what sort of video you make, there are also always going to be a few Youtube trolls who will nitpick and scream.

Quote
If I thought the Tek scopes might be fixable fairly easily in a day then I'd of course have a shot at them. But my spidey sense tells me they won't be. And it might be well and good to "have a crack", I'd have to be willing to take the heat for potentially not finishing it, not producing follow-up's in timely enough fashion etc, like has happened with other videos.
Maybe I will, maybe I won't, but at this stage it's a no I'm afraid.

Yeah...they are definitely not a single day project from start to finish, but with enough prep work ahead of time, you might well be able to tackle the PSUs and stabilize/repair the processor boards (if your scopes have the later processor boards with those pesky SMD capacitors) in a single day.

In the end though, if you did restore the PSUs and processor boards and still had major problems with the scopes that just couldn't be overcome at all, you could always sell off both scopes to someone who could put more time into them and then reinvest in a fully restorable 2465B or 2467B...

Anyhow, you've got my email address if you ultimately change your mind. Overall though, I think you really are ahead of most with your two 24x5 scopes. They appeared to have all of their hybrid modules present (most of which are easy to remove since they are just held in with screws and nuts) and they still have all of their knobs (the small knobs almost always break when you try to pull them off, but I've come up with a way to repair them perfectly by solvent welding the plastic fingers back in).

PS, since I have your ear, any plans to have Doug back again anytime soon? I always seem to learn something new from those videos.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 04:01:12 am by Tothwolf »
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37730
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #777 - Keithley 177 Microvolt DMM Repair
« Reply #84 on: August 11, 2015, 04:45:24 am »
What I was trying to suggest though is rather than going into it only with the expectation of a fully working scope at the end, is to break it down into individual sections, each of which can stand on its own. If at the very end (whenever that is) you wind up with a fully functional scope, all the better, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the end-goal.

Yes, that's how I'd do it.

Quote
Anyhow, you've got my email address if you ultimately change your mind. Overall though, I think you really are ahead of most with your two 24x5 scopes.

One is an original and one is a B model though. I don't know how many parts are common.

Quote
PS, since I have your ear, any plans to have Doug back again anytime soon? I always seem to learn something new from those videos.

I've had a plan for a nice video involving Doug for a long time now. He's been very busy though. Will happen eventually.
 

Offline richfiles

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 156
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #777 - Keithley 177 Microvolt DMM Repair
« Reply #85 on: August 11, 2015, 07:31:47 am »
Man, that thing reminds me of the old HP 3466A (YES... Hewlett Packard, not Agilent, not Keyblahblah). It started giving me nonsensical readings...  :'(

Wish I could get that puppy fixed, but I haven't had a chance to even consider what might have gone wonky. It's pretty much just like this meter, 4.5 digit, DC volts, AC volts, AC RMS volts, amps, and ohms, in all the same ranges, and even with the same DC only limitation on the low range... Except the HP 3466A is an auto-ranging meter with a battery option. It also has separate banana for amps, with a front accessible fuse.

Maybe I'll shoot some contact lube into the switches again... just incase!  :-/O

I imagine if it ain't that, this one will be a roller coaster of excitement. It has +/- 7 volt rails, +8 for battery charging, -2.6, +5, and +6.3, HP part numbers on chips. Fortunately though, the service manual does cross reference some of those to manufacturer part numbers such as CD40xx parts and Mxxxxxx parts. One chip is (I think), rather humorously cross referenced to it's own HP internal part number, and labeled as IC MISC NMOS. **dontbethatonedontbethatonedontbethatone  :o

I don't really know what to do with it. If I can fix it, I'd love to, cause the crappy DMM on my bench right now is a crummy 3.5 digit job that slides into one of those old Tektronix 500 series power units. The refresh rate on it is so slow, you can see it flicker, and it doesn't even show a proper over range on ohms when open, it just shoots to the max reading... Which is actually some arbitrary number, and not 1.999.

I kinda wanna fix my old Radio Shack meter too... Say what you will about transistor testers. I agree most are a gimmick, but this one had a beautiful one. 3 lead holes. That's it... It told you if you plugged an NPN or PNP, and then told you the order of the leads. Let me tell you, when you have to sub a transistor, that extra verification of lead order and transistor type, without needing to take the time to lookup datasheets... That was nice! I miss that meter, even if it wasn't the best. It had a very nice display too, going up to 3.999 (as opposed to 1.999), True RMS, a 40 step "analog" bar graph, and a few other basic features. Yeah, it's a cheapie, but it did the job for me when I didn't need the HP (remember, integrated rechargeable battery pack, for when it wasn't on the bench).

Now I have neither, and had to settle with an even crappier Rat Shack meter, as a holdover till I can replace ALL of it...

Should I mention the triggering is going on my old Tektronix T935A...  :palm:
Why me...  |O
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 07:45:08 am by richfiles »
 

Offline richfiles

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 156
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #777 - Keithley 177 Microvolt DMM Repair
« Reply #86 on: August 11, 2015, 07:48:25 am »
I'm actually unfamiliar with these Tek scopes that are being discussed, but considering the string of "busts" and easy repairs on all these recent test equipment repair videos... Heck, I'd watch that.  :-//
 

Offline Tothwolf

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 95
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #777 - Keithley 177 Microvolt DMM Repair
« Reply #87 on: August 11, 2015, 11:08:27 am »
One is an original and one is a B model though. I don't know how many parts are common.

They share a lot of common parts. The PSUs might be slightly different revisions but would be interchangeable for testing. The processor board set in the 2465 is different from the processor board used in the 2465A and 2465B. The main board itself is different between each of the models, but many of the hybrid modules on the main board are the same and some could be swapped for testing if you had one that was suspect (the cal data wouldn't be correct of course).

From the mailbag video, it looks like your 2465B is pretty much identical to mine (the only real difference I can see is mine has the GPIB option board fitted). Your 2465B has the same late generation processor board as mine which has those nasty SMD aluminum electrolytics and the Dallas NVRAM module. Hopefully on your board they haven't leaked electrolyte down into that SMD variable resistor and surrounding circuitry. I lucked out in that my scope had been stored upright on end for a decade or more before I got it, and gravity appears to have kept any leaking electrolyte away from those areas of the board.
 

Offline Ampere

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 73
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #777 - Keithley 177 Microvolt DMM Repair
« Reply #88 on: August 14, 2015, 01:21:09 pm »
As a beginner, it was nice to see someone going through the troubleshooting procedure from start to finish without already knowing what was wrong ahead of time. If you had already known what was wrong, it wouldn't have been as useful because it wouldn't really be troubleshooting video at that point -- just a video of you replacing a or fixing component. I don't think that it was an issue that the fault was actually mechanical. What's important is that you showed how to isolate the problem by showing what was NOT causing the fault.

Please do more repair videos in the future.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 03:10:00 pm by Ampere »
 

Offline Nerull

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 694
Re: EEVblog #777 - Keithley 177 Microvolt DMM Repair
« Reply #89 on: August 16, 2015, 10:06:52 pm »
"Meter hit with 30kV, stopped working" "Must be dirty switches!"

I must admit to being a bit skeptical of the psychic ability of many of the repair techs posting here.
 

Offline AF6LJ

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2902
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #777 - Keithley 177 Microvolt DMM Repair
« Reply #90 on: August 17, 2015, 11:17:31 pm »
"Meter hit with 30kV, stopped working" "Must be dirty switches!"

I must admit to being a bit skeptical of the psychic ability of many of the repair techs posting here.
You can be skeptical as much as you like, many of us have been techs working in both repair and new gear for longer than some here have been alive.

If a piece of gear has a history of some part going bad that is usually the first place you look, especially if you are getting paid to fix said gear in a timely manner.

Also the person who sent Dave the meter didn't say it was hit with 30KV he said it was near a 30KV discharge. Which wouldn't have done anything to the meter in the first place.

As for the bridge and the blown resistor I have to go with the poster who suggested that someone tried to measure mains voltage with the meter and ended up with the negative test lead coming contact with the hot side of the mains.
Sue AF6LJ
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf