EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on August 12, 2015, 09:36:33 am
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Another in a series of battery tutorials, Dave explains how to correctly measure the battery cutout voltage of a product.
And how to take internal resistance of a battery into account.
And also a detailed response to a video from Batteriser claiming Dave is wrong in using a PSU to measure the battery cutoff voltage, and why this is complete folly.
Full playlist of battery related videos is here:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvOlSehNtuHtj5Ubhx7govoBfNkyUO4Pp (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvOlSehNtuHtj5Ubhx7govoBfNkyUO4Pp)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnXiLBabSTU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnXiLBabSTU)
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I loved watching the vids on this one yesterday I think it was, and the teardown of perfectly good scam equipment, I wait for the van in my suburb 8-) I'll haggle so well that they will pay me !
What I would love to see more of is how to hook up batteries to my arduino project with a solar panel or other power supply and have the arduino charge up it's own batteries which it runs from. There are billions of charger circuits and powered circuits but next to none that charge their own batteries like every appliance you buy seems to do. How can you do what a mobile can do, that is, charge the battery it runs on. I'm not asking you or anyone to design one, I'm just saying I would LOVE to see something like this, generally. An arduino with a little animation on it's LCD saying it is charging, or a solar powered one that can say how much power it has stored in it's own battery.
The other thing is I'd like newbies to know that non-rechargeable batteries can be recharged at a much lower rate for about 6 times the life (or 6 times less environmental mess).
Ahh, glad I got that off my chest. keep up the good work 8-)
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Batteriser damage control, ie, make up anything to still con people. :palm:
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There are billions of charger circuits and powered circuits but next to none that charge their own batteries like every appliance you buy seems to do. How can you do what a mobile can do, that is, charge the battery it runs on.
Did I do something like that in the PSU design series videos?
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Did I do something like that in the PSU design series videos?
Thank you, I will find them and find out.
I have limited internet, and haven't looked over all your videos yet. I found your videos from the ones about Colin Mitchell. I built maybe 2 or 3 TEC-1's and a microcomp and many other items too. Great fun. Awesome interview too. I saw that alladins cave of desoldered parts, and wished I would set up a big harckerspace for everyone and find things like that. Ah, if only we had perfect health and 10 lifetimes.
keep up the good work !
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Nice BUT! (Baboon Under Test)
I can't wait to see Batteroo's reaction to this one. Besides the annoying fact that they are probably gonna earn money with all their nonsense, this hole story it's quite amusing.
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You said it exactly why no one will put their name under it - they will be laughed out of the industry!
You are all cowards who don't want to speak The Truth about the Great Battery Conspiracy, and instead you wave your stupid physics and ohm's law to obscure the truth.
[sarcasm off]
Seriously, that batteriser video is quite funny when watched as if it was a parody.
Dead-pan humour have it's charm...
I'd love to see this whole batteriser thing turn out to be one big PSA on "how gullible you people are".
That would have a tremendous education value...
We can dream, right?
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Did you mean whole story or was that a clever pun. ;)
Hmmm, I have to be honest, this mistake was caused by the fact that English is a foreign language for me...
But I see it now :)
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Too much waffling in this video in my opinion. Not speaking on my own behalf, but regarding people who watched Batteriser's video and then found yours. They might just give up. You should have condensed it to 10 minutes tops.
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Why didn't they show the batteriser making the monkey work again with those two batteries?
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Too much waffling in this video in my opinion. Not speaking on my own behalf, but regarding people who watched Batteriser's video and then found yours. They might just give up. You should have condensed it to 10 minutes tops.
Yeah I know. I wanted it to be mostly tutorial, and the Batteriser ranting got a bit carried away in the end.
I couldn't have been bothered to go back and redo it to make it shorter though, so it is what it is.
Same can be said about my original debunking video, but it's a process thing, and I wanted to show the thought process. Same thing here. I hope it's valuable as a general tutorial video, and that was the real intent.
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Why didn't they show the batteriser making the monkey work again with those two batteries?
LMAO good point, there was still a couple hundred % more claps left unused, batteriser to the rescue.
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So they just clarified their claim about that 1.3 volts; they mean under no load.
(What good is that for their device ,I don't know.)
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I can see the laboratory power supply tutorials, I don't think I explain very well. Here is a drawing of what I mean.
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I think what they were trying to say was that, if you have a device with large peak currents, eg motors, they will lock up as soon as the battery cant handle the current peak any more.
The powersupply will supply the peak current without a problem and power the device down to a low voltage. Whereas the battery will keep dipping past cutoff voltage as the peak current hits.
Like if you had a device that tried to pull 10A from some AA's for 0.2S every second. It might stop working as soon as the batteries fresh-state ESR had disappeared with 90% capacity left in the battery.
Which is of course true. But is a moot point because any attempt to boost the battery voltage in this situation will make the problem worse by trying to draw even higher peak current. :-DD
The only thing that would extend the battery life in this situation is a capacitor/supercap to buffer the peak currents. They would be better off selling that to clip across a cell. No issues of quiescent current to deal with.
That's the battery failure mode i see often in my logitech harmony remote control. When the batteries are getting down you only get a few repeated button presses before the mcu reboots from the IR tx led current burst.
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So they just clarified their claim about that 1.3 volts; they mean under no load.
Yes. Several time now since I released my video they have finally admitted that their 1.3V claim is masured with the battery open circuit. Their entire product is based around this incorrect method. They explain it away as misunderstanding:
From http://batteriser.com/faq/ (http://batteriser.com/faq/)
3. The third aspect may be the difference in definition of the voltages being quoted. There are two distinct ways of looking at voltages that people discuss but sometimes mistakenly interchange. One is the Open Circuit Voltage (referred to voltage at no load condition) and the other one is the Closed Voltage Circuit (referred to voltage under load condition). The two numbers that are quoted from the CEO and your question is an example of this incorrect interchange.
and from here:
http://startupdope.com/the-batteriser-hype/ (http://startupdope.com/the-batteriser-hype/)
The third aspect of the question is that when Batteroo’s CEO talks about batteries stop functioning at 1.3V, if you place that battery in a device described above, under load, the terminals of the battery would provide only 1.1V to the device and that is where the questioner agrees the device stops functioning. This is most likely the source of the discrepancy between what you stated as the low range of operation of devices vs. what is quoted as the open voltage of the batteries by the company.
Going back to your question that there are devices that operate at 1.1V but based on what we just showed this device will not function because it needs to have current supplied from a battery with terminal voltage of 1.1 V. This means that the device would not be functioning properly around 1.3 V open voltage circuit (i.e. open circuit voltage of 1.3 v minus about 0.2v drop across ESR would produce a battery terminal voltage of 1.1 v seen by the device) …. Therefore the battery open voltage circuit must be 1.3 v or higher.
This is an important point which plays a significant role and has been missed and ignored. In other words, once a device with the operating point of 1.1v stops working, and the battery is pulled out and measured without load, the meter would show 1.3V. This has been a source of confusion for some people that hopefully is cleared.
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Where can you buy a 'Clapping Monkey'? My Agilent Electronic Load is out of calibration, and I am looking for a replacement. I would need a 0.1% monkey. Do they come with calibration certificates?
I suppose the high end monkeys can hold the probes for you.
A battery that measures 1.27V unloaded on a DMM is dead.
They missed an opportunity to take the very same batteries and power the 'Standard Monkey' using the Batteriser.
Showing the 'Standard Monkey' doesn't work with dead batteries, doesn't show that there is any energy left in the batteries.
:wtf:
Jay_Diddy_B
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I can see the laboratory power supply tutorials, I don't think I explain very well. Here is a drawing of what I mean.
I'm guessing that when you plug the charger ,device switches to working off the charger plus it charges the batteries.
Edit: Try searching for simple UPS (uninterrupted power supplies) circuits.
Try Google images "ups schematic"... and find simple ones...
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I liked the play-by-play commentary on the Batteriser video in the second part - it really makes things obvious, especially when you point out how they didn't measure the voltage under load of those batteries.
Did anyone else find the announcer's voice in the Batteriser video really annoying to listen to?
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Ironically some handy reference material to be found if you are prepared to probe a bit deeper.
www.szkingkong.com (http://www.szkingkong.com)
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They missed an opportunity to take the very same batteries and power the 'Standard Monkey' using the Batteriser.
Probably because it doesn't work. The Batetrieser would have to draw the equivalent in power (+ conversion) in extra current, so it's even worse for the already near dead high ESR battery.
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How dare you argue with results gathered using the Industry Standard Monkey!?
(Great video Dave, keep em coming!)
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Nice one; however, no mention of the financial backgroud. Also, no discussion of the stainless steel sleeve. Probably for good reason. Why isn't this sort of scam treated as a criminal activity.
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This whole subject is entertaining, the Batteriser is an example of a product that seeks to take advantage of the general public's lack of knowledge when it comes to basic science. With that said; it is a time honored tradition to take advantage of the public's ignorance when hawking a new product. An informed public, is an empowered public.
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This kind of video are really fun and hilarious. I really like all of them. I really like your palmfaces and your determination.
Very, very nice are the pauses on the original Batteriser video with your comments; If I were that guy, I would run to hide me. I think that persons like those of Batteriser, deserve this kind of reply videos.
p.s. At the first time, in their original video, I didn't see the "unused" soldering iron on the bench, it's obvious that it's all scripted ;D
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Nice one; however, no mention of the financial backgroud. Also, no discussion of the stainless steel sleeve. Probably for good reason. Why isn't this sort of scam treated as a criminal activity.
What they are doing isn't illegal, it may be unethical. If you made unethical behavior illegal then who gets to decide what is unethical and what isn't?
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You just know someone is going to send in one of those monkeys to the mailbag.
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What they are doing isn't illegal
Correct. Nothing illegal about being fundamentally wrong or ignorant. And nothing illegal about wild exaggerated marketing claims. e.g. the classic "Up to 8x" that they use.
Products like this need to live and die in the marketplace of ideas.
At least this product can do something, unlike something like homeopathic "medicine". a.k.a water.
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They are cornered... Could they attack you in any way for using parts of their video?
Alexander.
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I am thinking we need to plunk down some cash and (God forbid) buy a batteriser to debunk their own product.. I find it laughable that they don't use their own product in their rebuttal videos to Dave.. should they NOT have faith in their own product? I doubt Dave could buy it directly, he's probably the only guy on their blacklist.. lol..
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I am thinking we need to plunk down some cash and (God forbid) buy a batteriser to debunk their own product..
You can bet your bottom dollar I'll get my hands on some...
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What they are doing isn't illegal
Correct. Nothing illegal about being fundamentally wrong or ignorant. And nothing illegal about wild exaggerated marketing claims. e.g. the classic "Up to 8x" that they use.
Products like this need to live and die in the marketplace of ideas.
At least this product can do something, unlike something like homeopathic "medicine". a.k.a water.
One of the reasons you let a product live or die on its own merits is because often products get "bad press" because someone with an interest in another product wants to limit competition.
You mentioned homeopathy, a word that describes a narrow section of the alternative health industry that is often misused and applied to a much larger segment of the alternative health industry.
The simple fact is; in the long run a free and open market for products is to the consumer's advantage. This becomes the great equalizer when it comes to propaganda both for and against a product.
In terms of this product the Batteriser the potential to render an AM pocket radio useless due to radiated and conducted EMI generated by the device isn't mentioned at all and may be an issue. In a backhanded way you are doing the Batteriser folks a favor by not even addressing this issue.
Even if that device worked; I wouldn't be caught dead using it on my portable short wave radio, for the simple reason I cannot be sure this device isn't a broadband noise generator.
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I used a very similar power supply as the Batteriser guy in the video, until I bought a professional 3 channel Siglent power supply. I guess it is OEM from some Chinese manufacturer: http://cgi.ebay.de/151770505940 (http://cgi.ebay.de/151770505940)
In their video description (http://tinyurl.com/pnwpj6f (http://tinyurl.com/pnwpj6f)) they write that it is a "constant power supply box". I know this is wrong, because you can only set it to constant voltage, and it goes to constant current, if the selected current is reached, neither is constant power.
But their video is smart: I think they want to suggest that because the open loop voltage of the battery is still 1.2V, that the Batterieser could power the monkey. Of course they don't say this, the whole video is meaningless, but the presentation is clean and nice. I suspect if someone without basic electrical knowledge would see this video and then Dave's facepalms video, they would still believe in the Batteriser.
BTW: what are the boards on the table? Looks like some homebrew electronic loads.
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Dave, You should dig up some sort of motorized toy and some dead batteries and measure the voltage at the battery terminals with the toy off and turned on to show how the voltage on a dead battery drops under load.
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But their video is smart: I think they want to suggest that because the open loop voltage of the battery is still 1.2V, that the Batterieser could power the monkey. Of course they don't say this, the whole video is meaningless, but the presentation is clean and nice. I suspect if someone without basic electrical knowledge would see this video and then Dave's facepalms video, they would still believe in the Batteriser.
Yeah that's likely. Also because, well, people "want to believe". I agree that the video is actually deceptively clever.
BTW: what are the boards on the table? Looks like some homebrew electronic loads.
I believe they are their test boards, some photos on their Indiegogo page IIRC.
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Dave, You should dig up some sort of motorized toy and some dead batteries and measure the voltage at the battery terminals with the toy off and turned on to show how the voltage on a dead battery drops under load.
I showed this in a previous video on the 0.8V energy discharge logging.
But I just got the idea that I might do something more substantial along these lines...
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BTW Batterizer's only goal is to maximize profits so their response was also maximizing it and was quite clever (you must agree) as it was only targeting at 99% of their customers (those technically challenged). There was no point in calculating an ESR, ionic resistance or power the Weller as their target audience does not require that actions to get convinced.
However, your (Dave's) answer and language was targeting that 1% of the customers who already know it is a scam.. Thus - funny but ineffective presentation (sorry, Dave). And too lengthy.
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BTW Batterizer's only goal is to maximize profits so their response was also maximizing it and was quite clever (you must agree) as it was only targeting at 99% of their customers (those technically challenged). There was no point in calculating an ESR, ionic resistance or power the Weller as their target audience does not require that actions to get convinced.
However, your (Dave's) answer and language was targeting that 1% of the customers who already know it is a scam.. Thus - funny but ineffective presentation (sorry, Dave). And too lengthy.
Dave is not a Madision Avenue marketing firm. It's almost pointless to try and compete with this super-slick presentation that Batteroo has. That kind of marketing takes money and time. And based on the ridiculous test "setups" that is obviously where a ton of Batteroo's money is going. The product must be being designed by a third party design house, because no one inside Batteroo, including Dr. Bob, seems to have a clue what they're talking about. If he did, they would not have needed to bring in this third party "professor" to explain the product testing.
Dave will never be able push out the volume of videos he has if he has to spend two weeks scripting, editing, and condensing each one. It's just an enormous amount of work to do, and too much to expect from what's a one-person shop in this regard. I'd much rather just let Dave be Dave, and let him be productive.
Besides, when Dave got to "Monkey Under Test," I just laughed so hard, it was all worth it.
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Dave, you should leave all your scopes on, with calibrator signal and badly compensated probes, makes you much more credible ;D
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Great video. BTW, what monkeys do is to fling poo, which happens after you shove an AA somewhere ;D
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Dave, you should leave all your scopes on, with calibrator signal and badly compensated probes, makes you much more credible ;D
Leave a few amps lying around on the bench and blame Putin a lot. A LOT.
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Batteriser is really grasping at straws at this point. I enjoyed watching the monkey, though.
And the toy was pretty funny, too.
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For the "electronics engineer's workbench" in the video you should have said "That's not an electronics engineer's workbench, THIS is an electronic engineer's workbench....insert pic of EEVBLOG office"
PS: It went on way too long. Definitely not a video people could show to random public. Should stick to the facts - batteriser say one thing in the video then contradict themselves in the FAQ.
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It's hard to take Dave's talking seriously and looking on teh monkey drawing with probes from ass, same time :-DD :clap:
P.S. To be honest, somewhat too much attention for batterizer stuff. You promoting their faulty product for free. :P
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I am thinking we need to plunk down some cash and (God forbid) buy a batteriser to debunk their own product..
You can bet your bottom dollar I'll get my hands on some...
I will not. For $10 a pack, this guy will make bootloads of money just from the people buying to see if it works. And when they're convinced it doesn't, how many will take the hassle of returning it?
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P.S. To be honest, somewhat too much attention for batterizer stuff. You promoting their faulty product for free. :P
I know what you mean, I want one of those scam projectors from the van scam video !!!
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Did you guys see the flashlight drain test. Why limit it to 2hrs?
Can't believe so many people are supportive of them. I love being an engineer and knowing the world around us.
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What they are doing isn't illegal
Correct. Nothing illegal about being fundamentally wrong or ignorant. And nothing illegal about wild exaggerated marketing claims. e.g. the classic "Up to 8x" that they use.
Products like this need to live and die in the marketplace of ideas.
At least this product can do something, unlike something like homeopathic "medicine". a.k.a water.
One of the reasons you let a product live or die on its own merits is because often products get "bad press" because someone with an interest in another product wants to limit competition.
You mentioned homeopathy, a word that describes a narrow section of the alternative health industry that is often misused and applied to a much larger segment of the alternative health industry.
The simple fact is; in the long run a free and open market for products is to the consumer's advantage. This becomes the great equalizer when it comes to propaganda both for and against a product.
Being wrong and ignorant is legal (sadly ;)) but deliberately lying to sell people snake oil is not. It is probably hard to tell "beyond reasonable doubt" which is which but It would definitely be illegal to lie in the EU and Likely Austraila/New Zeeland too. I would be surprised if not in the USA/Canada as well. The problem in this case I suspect is they are not selling a product, they are doing a crowd-funding campaign. People are not technically buying stuff, they are donating money to fund something that might seem worthwhile if you believe their bs.
A free and open market doesn't mean we should accept unethical business practices. It means the government shouldn't try to micromanage the economy but rather let (honest) businesses be regulated by supply and demand and other free market mechanism. Even the communist have realised that this is a pretty good idea. But a government that can put an end to unethical businesses in a lawful manner is a necessary evil or else you get stuff like this: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/i-wish-all-chinese-products-were-made-with-this-care/msg728761/#msg728761 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/i-wish-all-chinese-products-were-made-with-this-care/msg728761/#msg728761) :scared:
Watch that and tell me you aren't grateful the FDA makes sure the food you buy wasn't fished out of a gutter! If it was only up to the free market we would still have slavery and all kinds of atrocities.
In fact, regulation is necessary to maintain a free market, if there was no regulation things would quickly deteriorate into monopolies and oligarch rule.
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Did you guys see the flashlight drain test. Why limit it to 2hrs?
Can't believe so many people are supportive of them. I love being an engineer and knowing the world around us.
I'm starting to believe they are mostly fake accounts and people who's been paid to comment, these Batteroo guys are beyond pathetic and they've been caught with their pants down a few times already. :-\
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deliberately lying to sell people snake oil is not. It is probably hard to tell "beyond reasonable doubt" which is which but It would definitely be illegal to lie in the EU and Likely Austraila/New Zeeland too. I would be surprised if not in the USA/Canada as well. The problem in this case I suspect is they are not selling a product, they are doing a crowd-funding campaign. People are not technically buying stuff, they are donating money to fund something that might seem worthwhile if you believe their bs.
Indiegogo has a definite written policy: https://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms (https://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms)
"Campaign Owners are not permitted ... to scam others. If the Campaign is claiming to do the impossible or it's just plain phony, don't post it. Campaign Owners shall not make any false or misleading statements in connection with their Campaigns."
If you believe this is a scam or claiming to do the impossible, or making misleading statements then drop them a line at this link (http://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/requests/new?campaign=1302928&description=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.indiegogo.com%2Fprojects%2F1302928&subject=Prohibited+Content&ticket_form_id=68803)...
Indiegogo also wants to foster "trust" and "safety":
https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/526996-How-Does-Indiegogo-Foster-Trust-Safety- (https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/526996-How-Does-Indiegogo-Foster-Trust-Safety-)
If you think the batteriser people are breaching trust (eg. by lying to people in their promotional material) then let them know.
You could also write to them if you believe this product may be harmful (eg. by over-draining batteries) or risky (eg. by fooling battery indicators in devices which need to check battery levels before writing to SD cards, causing data loss if the battery runs out of juice at that moment).
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Does anyone know where the professor in the video teaches at?
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deliberately lying to sell people snake oil is not. It is probably hard to tell "beyond reasonable doubt" which is which but It would definitely be illegal to lie in the EU and Likely Austraila/New Zeeland too. I would be surprised if not in the USA/Canada as well. The problem in this case I suspect is they are not selling a product, they are doing a crowd-funding campaign. People are not technically buying stuff, they are donating money to fund something that might seem worthwhile if you believe their bs.
Indiegogo has a definite written policy: https://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms (https://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms)
"Campaign Owners are not permitted ... to scam others. If the Campaign is claiming to do the impossible or it's just plain phony, don't post it. Campaign Owners shall not make any false or misleading statements in connection with their Campaigns."
If you believe this is a scam or claiming to do the impossible, or making misleading statements then drop them a line at this link (http://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/requests/new?campaign=1302928&description=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.indiegogo.com%2Fprojects%2F1302928&subject=Prohibited+Content&ticket_form_id=68803)...
Indiegogo also wants to foster "trust" and "safety":
https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/526996-How-Does-Indiegogo-Foster-Trust-Safety- (https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/526996-How-Does-Indiegogo-Foster-Trust-Safety-)
If you think the batteriser people are breaching trust (eg. by lying to people in their promotional material) then let them know.
You could also write to them if you believe this product may be harmful (eg. by over-draining batteries) or risky (eg. by fooling battery indicators in devices which need to check battery levels before writing to SD cards, causing data loss if the battery runs out of juice at that moment).
:-+ "Thank you for contacting Indiegogo. Your request has been received and is being reviewed." Well see what happens.
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Does anyone know where the professor in the video teaches at?
It must be the school for bent over monkeys.
Seriously though, Dave, thank you for continuing to make videos like this that debunk total crap products that are nothing more then a scam.
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Does anyone know where the professor in the video teaches at?
He's probably a true professor, just in Liberal Arts or PE. lol.
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I still think it's a viral marketing campaign for something else, probably one of the battery companies themselves. There's no way that a company that can spend that much time and money on marketing videos, would make a reply to a technical critic with a setup that is so over obviously not serious. ie: The target audience will obviously notice the mistakes. If they've designed a Batteriser, they know how pathetic and fake the monkey guys setup is.
McBryce.
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Their 'Professor' is suspect because normally when someone from a university is shown on TV they give their university name and department. German TV shows the qualifications as well but that is a little over the top.
That workbench, high chuckle value, anyone who left a soldering iron like that would end up needing medical attention. There would also be LOTS of burn marks on the bench.
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Does anyone know where the professor in the video teaches at?
Which one? The one the the monkey or the one on other videos?
Alexander.
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He's probably a true professor, just in Liberal Arts or PE. lol.
If not a blantant lie by the batteriser guys, he's a Professor of Electrical Engineering... Unbelievable... Why on earth would he sell his soul and scientific reputation for such a dubious company? For a few bucks? I just don't get it... :palm:
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The monkey graduated with a Doctorate from Yale. He has no idea how he ended up in marketing :D
McBryce.
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i really want the name of this "professor" its so WTF
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Even if that device worked; I wouldn't be caught dead using it on my portable short wave radio, for the simple reason I cannot be sure this device isn't a broadband noise generator.
But you can't be sure it is without actually testing one. Sure, it probably is but that's a whole lot less convincing than actually measuring one.
I wouldn't be surprised if Dave measures that when he gets his hands on one.
And as an off topic aside in regards to alternative medicines. Once an alternative medicine is scientifically shown to be theraputically useful it ceases to be alternative. It just becomes medicine.
I hope Dave does measure conducted and radiated EMI of one of those...
And off topic.....
I totally agree regarding regarding Alternative medicine, the problem is science like every thing else on the planet can be perverted by an agenda.
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Dave
I think the cymbal monkey understood the concept of internal battery resistance better then Batteriser did.
Thanks for the great video.
Daryl
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Even if that device worked; I wouldn't be caught dead using it on my portable short wave radio, for the simple reason I cannot be sure this device isn't a broadband noise generator.
But you can't be sure it is without actually testing one. Sure, it probably is but that's a whole lot less convincing than actually measuring one.
I wouldn't be surprised if Dave measures that when he gets his hands on one.
And as an off topic aside in regards to alternative medicines. Once an alternative medicine is scientifically shown to be theraputically useful it ceases to be alternative. It just becomes medicine.
I hope Dave does measure conducted and radiated EMI of one of those...
Whoa! Good catch! You just nailed what could be the fatal flaw: getting that thing through FCC with dozens of different battery combinations and an infinite combination of end devices. They can't submit it for approval just clipped to the battery because that is *not* how it will be used. It's clearly a Class B device since its billed for home use, which really ups the ante.
They might try to classify it as a kit and push certification to the end user, but I doubt the FCC will bite.
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https://www.linkedin.com/pub/bob-roohparvar/5/6b1/73b (https://www.linkedin.com/pub/bob-roohparvar/5/6b1/73b)
Dr. Bob Roohparvar – Co-Founder & Chief Executive Officer of Batteroo – With over 30 years of electrical engineering and entrepreneurial experience, Dr. Roohparvar is no stranger to disrupting the power management industry, with a prolific patent portfolio. Prior to Batteriser, Dr. Roohparvar served as CEO and President of Flexpower, a subsidiary of Flextronics. After being told it couldn't be done, Dr. Roohparvar and his team re-designed the original iPhone charger, reducing size by 40% and creating the smallest charger in the world. Prior to Flexpower, Dr. Roohparvar served as Vice President and General Manager at Broadcom, in charge of their Power Management Business Unit. In addition to launching Batteriser, Dr. Roohparvar is also a professor at California State University, East Bay, teaching computer science and computer engineering classes. Dr. Roohparvar received his Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering from Iowa State University.
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For the "electronics engineer's workbench" in the video you should have said "That's not an electronics engineer's workbench, THIS is an electronic engineer's workbench....insert pic of EEVBLOG office"
The iron and scope look like they were purchased in order to make the video. Far too shiny & unscuffed!
EDIT: Sorry - I see that Dave mentioned this in the video.
BTW Dave - you are obviously setting the bar too high for a Professor of EE in a university.
If they listen to you, they'll have to close down the colleges - and their income streams.
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We should mention just for completeness
- that a typical clapping monkey DOESN'T have any low-voltage cutoff circuitry...
You'd be happy if the battery terminals were actually soldered - I've seen cheap imported toys with the wires twisted around the metal battery tabs!
BTW - I wonder if Batteriser guy noticed the current draw ramped up as the voltage dropped to stalling point.
I guess that's when the monkey emits bad smoke.
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Is this the monkey probing guy?
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-doering/61/a17/3b2?trk=pub-pbmap (https://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-doering/61/a17/3b2?trk=pub-pbmap)
Also a professor at California State University, if linked in can be trusted.
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I guess that's when the monkey emits bad smoke.
Monkey fart?
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https://www.linkedin.com/pub/bob-roohparvar/5/6b1/73b (https://www.linkedin.com/pub/bob-roohparvar/5/6b1/73b)
Dr. Bob Roohparvar – Co-Founder & Chief Executive Officer of Batteroo – With over 30 years of electrical engineering and entrepreneurial experience, Dr. Roohparvar is no stranger to disrupting the power management industry, with a prolific patent portfolio. Prior to Batteriser, Dr. Roohparvar served as CEO and President of Flexpower, a subsidiary of Flextronics. After being told it couldn't be done, Dr. Roohparvar and his team re-designed the original iPhone charger, reducing size by 40% and creating the smallest charger in the world. Prior to Flexpower, Dr. Roohparvar served as Vice President and General Manager at Broadcom, in charge of their Power Management Business Unit. In addition to launching Batteriser, Dr. Roohparvar is also a professor at California State University, East Bay, teaching computer science and computer engineering classes. Dr. Roohparvar received his Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering from Iowa State University.
doesn't look to be the same monkey in their video
http://www20.csueastbay.edu/directory/profiles/mcs/roohparvarfarzan.html (http://www20.csueastbay.edu/directory/profiles/mcs/roohparvarfarzan.html)
students rate him high....not sure what that really says.
http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=671473 (http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=671473)
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Even if that device worked; I wouldn't be caught dead using it on my portable short wave radio, for the simple reason I cannot be sure this device isn't a broadband noise generator.
But you can't be sure it is without actually testing one. Sure, it probably is but that's a whole lot less convincing than actually measuring one.
I wouldn't be surprised if Dave measures that when he gets his hands on one.
And as an off topic aside in regards to alternative medicines. Once an alternative medicine is scientifically shown to be theraputically useful it ceases to be alternative. It just becomes medicine.
I hope Dave does measure conducted and radiated EMI of one of those...
That was my concern and being an amateur radio operator I have seen more than my fair share of dirty cheap Crap.
Whoa! Good catch! You just nailed what could be the fatal flaw: getting that thing through FCC with dozens of different battery combinations and an infinite combination of end devices. They can't submit it for approval just clipped to the battery because that is *not* how it will be used. It's clearly a Class B device since its billed for home use, which really ups the ante.
They might try to classify it as a kit and push certification to the end user, but I doubt the FCC will bite.
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The other issue that concerns me is what happens when this device looks into a short?
Say the electrolydic across the battery in my Grundig SW radio shorts? I have three of these things in series that are now looking at .7Ohms. We know batteries get hot but how much hotter is the battery compartment in my Grundig SW radio going to get?
Will it melt the case of my now classic SW radio??
This just occurred to me just a minute ago, the short circuit current on a AA Alkaline battery can be surprisingly high, Maybe Dave knows the answer to that but I see problems here...
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Does anyone know where the professor in the video teaches at?
We only know about the professor in the promo video, he was from San Jose State.
And from LinkedIn, about Mr Roohparvar himself:
is also a professor at California State University, East Bay, teaching computer science and computer engineering classes
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This just occurred to me just a minute ago, the short circuit current on a AA Alkaline battery can be surprisingly high, Maybe Dave knows the answer to that but I see problems here...
It will be approximately the current loaded voltage divided by the IR. But there is some added electrochemisty at play when you short like that.
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O.k., so people want to know the main "professor" in the video:
Of the "campaigners" for the Batteriser (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)), one Chris Uken looks an awfully like this Instagram account person:
https://instagram.com/exellentc/ (https://instagram.com/exellentc/)
exellentc shows up in various site login names and other pictures.
I'm not good with faces, but this person looks a awful lot like the main "professors of electrical engineering" doing the video. There's also a Chris Uken who was a student at CSU East Bay:
http://www20.csueastbay.edu/programs/csr/student-projects-2013.html (http://www20.csueastbay.edu/programs/csr/student-projects-2013.html) (search for Uken)
It doesn't appear that the Batteriser Batteroo is run by merely fans of Batteriser...
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Their 'Professor' is suspect because normally when someone from a university is shown on TV they give their university name and department. German TV shows the qualifications as well but that is a little over the top.
I found it a bit strange that they didn't name him like the other professor in the early promo video.
You'd think they'd want to add credibility to their video, right?
Why didn't professor Roohparvar do it himself? He's a professor at California State University
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O.k., so people want to know the main "professor" in the video:
Of the "campaigners" for the Batteriser (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)), one Chris Uken looks an awfully like this Instagram account person:
https://instagram.com/exellentc/ (https://instagram.com/exellentc/)
Looks like him.
But I think it's actually Mr Uken's project adviser Dr. Roger Doering
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-doering/61/a17/3b2 (https://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-doering/61/a17/3b2)
Who is Mr Roohparvar's colleague at California State University, so that all makes sense he'd get one of his colleagues to do the video.
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O.k., so people want to know the main "professor" in the video:
Of the "campaigners" for the Batteriser (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)), one Chris Uken looks an awfully like this Instagram account person:
https://instagram.com/exellentc/ (https://instagram.com/exellentc/)
Looks like him.
But I think it's actually Mr Uken's project adviser Dr. Roger Doering
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-doering/61/a17/3b2 (https://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-doering/61/a17/3b2)
Who is Mr Roohparvar's colleague at California State University, so that all makes sense he'd get one of his colleagues to do the video.
Hmm, I found Doering's linkedin profile first as well and he looks very similar, but now when looking at Uken's myspace profile ( https://myspace.com/exellentc/photos (https://myspace.com/exellentc/photos) ) which has some photos, he looks an awful lot like the guy in the video. Maybe Uken and Doering are related, could explain the connection, but him simply being a student also fit the bill. One of his professors could have offered him this job on the side...
Can't believe half the faculty is involved in this. :o
Kinda means the journalists have their backs clear since they are only really expected to verify credentials and they appear to be real.
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We only know about the professor in the promo video, he was from San Jose State.
do they claim that in the video?
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This just occurred to me just a minute ago, the short circuit current on a AA Alkaline battery can be surprisingly high, Maybe Dave knows the answer to that but I see problems here...
It will be approximately the current loaded voltage divided by the IR. But there is some added electrochemisty at play when you short like that.
I am wondering if it is going to be enough to be destructive to the item the batteries are installed in.
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I thought I would do a little digging into this myself. I read the FAQ at:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)
This is one of the questions:
What do you mean that we tap into 80% of a battery's unused energy? Where is the up to 8x coming from?
With millions of different devices designed by different companies with different specifications for different applications, one number does not fit all. Mileage will vary, and some devices will get more battery life extension from Batteriser than others. Instead of arguing the best design cases vs. the worst, it would make sense to look at ACTUAL data from the field.
Although there have not been a lot of studies on the amount of energy left in batteries as they are thrown away, a very well done study was presented in the International Conference for Battery Recycling by Dr. Rolf Zinniker. He collected "dead" batteries from 19 different recycling locations/centers and the resulting experiments and measurements showed the following results:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=165015;image)
*Percentage relative to average charge in multiple types of batteries
This study shows that 10% of the batteries thrown away have roughly enough energy left in them to be considered Unused. 20% of the perceived "dead" batteries have, on average, 93% of their energy still left in them. This study further shows that if you take an average of 30% of the "least Dead" batteries, 84% of energy is still left inside. . If the device could have continued to operate at the same rate of power consumption until all the energy was drawn from the battery, the devices could have lasted roughly from 2 times to 14 times longer, based on this study. As can be seen from the actual real life data on batteries that are thrown away, Batteriser could significantly increase the battery's operating life by tapping into the energy that is thrown away. The full text of the study can be found at:
http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)
Let me start picking this apart.
The concept for unused energy comes from a study of batteries in a recycle bin.
This a non-representative sample. I would want to consider how many batteries end up in the recycle bin and how many end up in the landfill.
I could see how somebody had a product that didn't work or they didn't want it any more and separated the perfectly good batteries from the product for disposal.
I have probably discarded old, but perfectly good batteries, from equipment like camera flashes ( I am showing my age) and DMM because I did want the batteries to leak and damage the product.
If you take these batteries and put them in a product. The product will work.
You do not need anything to extract additional energy from this group of batteries. You simply need to put them in a functional product.
As a battery is de-pleated the ESR rises. This was demonstrated by the Monkey and the Cal State Professor.(Did you like the way I did that?)
These batteries may work in low power devices where the current draw is low.
Again nothing is needed - Just the desire to move the batteries to a low power device.
In short, the data obtained from the study of batteries in a recycle bin, is proof that people discard them without testing them. It is NOT evidence that products leave a lot of unused energy in the batteries. People did that.
The Batteriser is not available yet. But I would hazard a guess that it is low power synchronous boost regulator. It would look something like this:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=165017;image)
The FB divider would be adjusted for Vout 1.5V
Regards,
Jay_Diddy_B
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I can see the laboratory power supply tutorials, I don't think I explain very well. Here is a drawing of what I mean.
ElectricChicken - Trying not to go tangential... look here http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/Seeeduino-Stalker-v3-p-1882.html (http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/Seeeduino-Stalker-v3-p-1882.html)
Dave - maybe the best way to do this is a small intro, with summary that it is bullsh!t and for further details, keep watching, then go into the rest of the video.
That way, people who take you at your word may decide to tune out and the rest will watch the blow by blow that follows.
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This is all a bit of a sideline from their poor claims, they're dancing around the pulsed load condition which may or may not be better with their product under certain circumstances. There is no evidence from them showing lifespan improvements as per the standard tests Dave shows in the video and until they actually show some examples, arguments where they can hit some technically correct points are just adding to their marketing puff while avoiding the serious questions raised about their product claims.
With a little googling you can find the sort of tests used to backup claims of lifespan, attached to the post is an example. Thats the sort of evidence required to backup an advertised claim in Australia.
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Let me start picking this apart.
The concept for unused energy comes from a study of batteries in a recycle bin.
This a non-representative sample. I would want to consider how many batteries end up in the recycle bin and how many end up in the landfill.
I could see how somebody had a product that didn't work or they didn't want it any more and separated the perfectly good batteries from the product for disposal.
I have probably discarded old, but perfectly good batteries, from equipment like camera flashes ( I am showing my age) and DMM because I did want the batteries to leak and damage the product.
If you take these batteries and put them in a product. The product will work.
You do not need anything to extract additional energy from this group of batteries. You simply need to put them in a functional product.
The other way lightly used batteries end up in waste streams is that few people measure their batteries individually, I have removed sets of AA batteries from products that stopped working. Despite having installed sets of packaged batteries into the products, occasionally just 1 battery of the set will have a premature failure while the others still contain most of their original charge, binning and recycling of these batteries is easy when you have a multimeter but most consumers will declare all the batteries in the set depleted without testing and replace them all.
-
Although there have not been a lot of studies on the amount of energy left in batteries as they are thrown away, a very well done study was presented in the International Conference for Battery Recycling by Dr. Rolf Zinniker. He collected "dead" batteries from 19 different recycling locations/centers and the resulting experiments and measurements showed the following results:
Batteriser only found that info buy looking at this forum where someone posted it. Now they are using it as evidence ::)
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This whole campaign is really frustrating to watch. There is clearly conflict of interest from people whom they interview.
Does anyone know how much money is actually involved in this company?
-
Loved the un-used iron, and the scope probe!
-
This whole campaign is really frustrating to watch. There is clearly conflict of interest from people whom they interview.
Does anyone know how much money is actually involved in this company?
The Indiegogo campaign is at 220,000 (day 17 of 30) so 400,000 could be hit I guess. I'd bet they have capital and the igogo stuff is just advertising and coffee money.
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Look who's on top when you search YouTube for 'batteriser' (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=batteriser)... I bet they're really scared now. :)
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I nearly died laughing when Dave pointed out the terrible probe compensation :-DD
Also, the "...not in any way affiliated with Batteriser..." thing in their youtube page seems like a way to remove themselves from blame later except that the exact same videos are also uploaded to their vimeo pro account and linked onto their official website... Weird.
By the way, I haven't been getting email updates for the last couple of videos. Anyone else having that issue?
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I haven't seen anyone post this yet.. Google Patents is great!
http://www20.csueastbay.edu/directory/profiles/mcs/roohparvarfarzan.html (http://www20.csueastbay.edu/directory/profiles/mcs/roohparvarfarzan.html)
Pulse frequency to voltage conversion
https://www.google.com/patents/US7755914?dq=Bob+Roohparvar&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAWoVChMIuviO55-lxwIVxZWICh0nqQPd (https://www.google.com/patents/US7755914?dq=Bob+Roohparvar&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAWoVChMIuviO55-lxwIVxZWICh0nqQPd)
Low voltage charge employing optimized clock amplitudes
https://www.google.com/patents/US6522559?dq=Bob+Roohparvar&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDIQ6AEwA2oVChMIuviO55-lxwIVxZWICh0nqQPd (https://www.google.com/patents/US6522559?dq=Bob+Roohparvar&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDIQ6AEwA2oVChMIuviO55-lxwIVxZWICh0nqQPd)
Primary only control quasi resonant convertor
https://www.google.com/patents/WO2008121398A2?cl=en&dq=Bob+Roohparvar&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBGoVChMIuviO55-lxwIVxZWICh0nqQPd (https://www.google.com/patents/WO2008121398A2?cl=en&dq=Bob+Roohparvar&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBGoVChMIuviO55-lxwIVxZWICh0nqQPd)
Methods of extending the life of battery
https://www.google.com/patents/US20150048785?dq=Bob+Roohparvar&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAGoVChMIuviO55-lxwIVxZWICh0nqQPd (https://www.google.com/patents/US20150048785?dq=Bob+Roohparvar&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAGoVChMIuviO55-lxwIVxZWICh0nqQPd)
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This whole campaign is really frustrating to watch. There is clearly conflict of interest from people whom they interview.
Of course.
The Indiegogo video has the former CEO of K-Mart, because he's on the Batteriser board as the Chief Strategy Officer.
And it seems all the professors they are getting to support it are colleagues.
It's a big circle jerk thinking they have the greatest invention in history ::)
Does anyone know how much money is actually involved in this company?
No idea. But clearly they are not just relying on the Indiegogo money. The money they must have already spent on the professional videos and marketing must be a lot. I suspect they don't really need the Indiegogo money, it's probably just a big pre-sales marketing vehicle and looks good to future investors.
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I'll just stick this here ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuaA-rUBmEc&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuaA-rUBmEc&feature=youtu.be)
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In short, the data obtained from the study of batteries in a recycle bin, is proof that people discard them without testing them. It is NOT evidence that products leave a lot of unused energy in the batteries. People did that.
Bingo!
The Batteriser is not available yet. But I would hazard a guess that it is low power synchronous boost regulator. It would look something like this:
My guess is it's some form of PFM boost converter, because they need to best possible efficiency over the widest possible output power range.
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I'll just stick this here ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuaA-rUBmEc&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuaA-rUBmEc&feature=youtu.be)
Well there's a shock! A modern product dropping out at 0.9V per cell, it's a miracle!
Must be one of those edge cases, because the fountain of all battery wisdom Batteriser (now grungingly) say the majority of products drop out at 1.1V
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I'll just stick this here ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuaA-rUBmEc&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuaA-rUBmEc&feature=youtu.be)
Well there's a shock! A modern product dropping out at 0.9V per cell, it's a miracle!
Must be one of those edge cases, because the fountain of all battery wisdom Batteriser (now grungingly) say the majority of products drop out at 1.1V
Even on batteries! not just the power supply!
I'm not sure how "modern" a 17 year old device is, but the Sega Game Gear (first released in 1990, that's 25 years old!) drops out at 5.5volts for six series cells (about 0.9volts per cell too!)
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Great video Dave!
Just to add to the learning opportunity here, if the monkey needs a certain amount of current to run, and the battery starts off with say 0.1 ohm IR does it deliver V/R=I amps? Or 1.5/0.1 = 15 amp potentially shorted? And when you deplete the battery and voltage drops to say 1.2 V and IR becomes 0.3 ohm, would we have 1.2/0.3 = 4 amp? Is that the idea? Sorry I may have the units off by a few orders of magnitude... I can't imagine 4 amp from a depleted battery... But is that the idea? (plus of course the resistance of the load under test).
So if monkey had a resistance of 1 ohm, under test the current would be 1.5/(0.1+1)=1.36 amp under load for a fresh battery, and 1.2/(0.3+1)=0.92 amp from a partially depleted battery? Is that how the calculation is done? For the PSU you could keep dropping voltage down to 0.92 V and get same current since 0.92/(0+1)=0.92 amp.
I'd like to see some math. Also it is feeling a lot like "static" voltage arguments when you can generate thousands of volts on the carpet but the amount of charge is not enough for sustained current. Batteries use up the chemistry and so the rate of charge carrier generation slows. The reaction "builds up" a bunch of electrons (like static or a capacitor) but as soon as you turn on the monkey, it depletes all the charge carriers... Electrons get used up. Old used batteries can't generate enough new electrons per time to sustain current. You get little bursts like when the monkey in the video moved hands for a second and stopped with the dead batteries, and then when turned off a few seconds and then turned on again, it moved a little more. Like my electric toothbrush when the battery starts dying or shaver.
Is this way of understanding correct?
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Looks like him.
But I think it's actually Mr Uken's project adviser Dr. Roger Doering
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-doering/61/a17/3b2 (https://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-doering/61/a17/3b2)
Nah, he's way older than the guy in the video. I'd go with Chris Uken.
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Looks like him.
But I think it's actually Mr Uken's project adviser Dr. Roger Doering
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-doering/61/a17/3b2 (https://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-doering/61/a17/3b2)
Nah, he's way older than the guy in the video. I'd go with Chris Uken.
"Professor"?! Maybe he teaches as an adjunct, but "Professor" really means that one is employed in a tenure-track position - something I've not heard of an undergrad receiving. I'm not putting down undergrads, I am one, but that's how the system works. Nothing like adding false credentials to the list of misrepresentations.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopheruken (https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopheruken)
This guy just graduated last year.
Christopher Uken
Computer Engineer
Fremont, CaliforniaComputer Hardware
Education
CSU East Bay
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Senior Project
Biofeedback Mobility Group designed the Brainfingers Wheelchair Interface (BWI) for our client Dr. Bowen of California State University at East Bay that hopes to be one possible solution for increasing mobility. It is a Brain Computer Interface (BCI) controlled electric wheelchair. In this setup the Brainfingers BCI monitors brainwave signals and uses them to control a computer that is interfaced with the motor controllers on a Quickie P100 electric wheelchair.
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I'd like to see some math.
It's not just math when you are talking about the electrochemistry of a battery and the dynamic performance of the IR under load. You really have to get quantitative data by measuring it.
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Nah, he's way older than the guy in the video. I'd go with Chris Uken.
Ok, I think you win the Internet. I'll go with Chris Uken too.
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I skimmed this one and I will paste below an excerpt from it that might be of some particular interest. You can read the whole thing at the link above if you are more keen than I am.
The spurious emoticon is an accident.
Active load circuitry that drew a fixed 50 mA current was placed at the output of these batteries and the voltage of each battery was measured over time......The amount of time it takes for the batteries to reach 1.39V, which is where a lot of electronic equipment stop operating, are listed.
Thats all I had to read!
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I tried to convey they main issues with their video in the simplest way I could despite having no eye for visual design.
(http://i.imgur.com/45kEZjS.jpg)
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Did they edit these videos to remove the professor claim? I thought I heard it but now I can't seem to find that portion again. :-//
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Did they edit these videos to remove the professor claim? I thought I heard it but now I can't seem to find that portion again. :-//
No. At least not yet...
They weirdly uploaded two separate videos of almost the same thing. One has the claim about an EE professor in the description and the other doesn't.
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Did they edit these videos to remove the professor claim? I thought I heard it but now I can't seem to find that portion again. :-//
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv5eHRnjGC8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv5eHRnjGC8)
its there!
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I skimmed this one and I will paste below an excerpt from it that might be of some particular interest. You can read the whole thing at the link above if you are more keen than I am.
The spurious emoticon is an accident.
Active load circuitry that drew a fixed 50 mA current was placed at the output of these batteries and the voltage of each battery was measured over time......The amount of time it takes for the batteries to reach 1.39V, which is where a lot of electronic equipment stop operating, are listed.
Thats all I had to read!
If a patent is factually incorrect, is it even a valid patent at that point?
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The description says he is professor of EE. Don't say he is an EE. Maybe he teaches electricity in secondary school. :P :P :P
Alexander.
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The description says he is professor of EE. Don't say he is an EE. Maybe he teaches electricity in secondary school. :P :P :P
Alexander.
I was thinking preschool.
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I almost pissed myself watching Dave beat batteriser to a pulp. :-DD
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One thing that got me wondering was if that would allow battery manufacturers to make batteries with different chemistry that otherwise wouldn't be compatible with existing voltages but would allow sufficiently greater energy capacity or cost savings or shelf life. Or even better environmental aspects.
That would not be very practical to use, other chemistries usual has higher voltages and a battery that would fry the device without a converter clamp mounted is not practical.
It is smarter to build the electronic into the battery: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Kentli%20AA%202800mWh%20%28Blue%29%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Kentli%20AA%202800mWh%20%28Blue%29%20UK.html)
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Active load circuitry that drew a fixed 50 mA current was placed at the output of these batteries and the voltage of each battery was measured over time......The amount of time it takes for the batteries to reach 1.39V, which is where a lot of electronic equipment stop operating, are listed.
Thats all I had to read!
Yup. It's stunning that this is in their patent. That sentence also implies that the voltage was tested under load.
Their claim started out at 1.4V, then 1.35V, then 1.3V (all not under load as they finally had to admit too), and now they have had to admit it's actually 1.1V under load.
:palm:
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Yeah, that's certainly at the forefront of the controversy. I did find it interesting that they have considered that it could be added to a battery during manufacture. I assume if that were to happen it could be done very cheaply since it would be effectively disposable single use.
Never going to happen, even if it cost nothing to integrate into the battery, because of the simple fact that it would render all battery guages in every product non-functional. Actually worse than non-functional, it would show 100% all the time and then your product dies instantly. No one would buy such a battery that did this.
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Yeah, that's certainly at the forefront of the controversy. I did find it interesting that they have considered that it could be added to a battery during manufacture. I assume if that were to happen it could be done very cheaply since it would be effectively disposable single use.
Don't worry, no reputable battery manufacturer would even consider it.
It would make their batteries a) more expensive, and b) worse.
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Now the question stands: Which scenario is the most favorable for our community?
Of all possible choices I would like to start to list some possible actions:
- a) Make YT presentations showing that, even though Christopher Uken tried hard, Ohm's law does obey and there is nothing he can do about it. Same in Austr..ia.
- b) Write petitions to Indiegogo about their wonky (+800% claim) campaign.
- c) Support Batterizer by buying or advertising this stuff.
- d) Make a series of hilarious YT videos with BUTs, all vacuum lamps on, measurement done by virgins with capacitor earings, etc,
- e) Officially invite Mr. Christopher and/or Mr. Bob into public discussion about their project, on some „neutral ground” (pun intended),
- f) Ask the authorities of the university/ies they represent about the ethical consequences of employing/graduating EE who either do not believe in Ohm's law or lie for profit (or both).
- g) ....
- ....
- z) Let it gogo.
?
I think that either we (the community) can act (a – z) randomly so that everyone can pick for themselves the most appropriate action or we can decide on single coordinated action, maximizing the gain of (our) profit, the pride of being decent without the need for misleading (technically) challenged.
OT: I have changed my personal opinion about „Made in China”. Those products are low quality but I have never heard of some Chinese University researcher to $%^&@# in the BUT for money.
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Never going to happen, even if it cost nothing to integrate into the battery, because of the simple fact that it would render all battery guages in every product non-functional. Actually worse than non-functional, it would show 100% all the time and then your product dies instantly. No one would buy such a battery that did this.
Can you run 1-wire or a similar interface over the top of a power pin? It would allow for 'smart' batteries that can report an accurate state of charge while still having a carefully-regulated output.
Obviously this is still never going to happen for cheap commercial batteries, but maybe for some sort of long-life industrial applications it could be useful.
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Hey there Dave,
Rather than attempting to argue the general case with these nitwits, which will always provide room for the sort of marketing sleaze we've been seeing, perhaps it'd be better to get particular.
Have they ever provided a concrete example of a single *specific* product that will meet, say, half of their claim, and will operate for 400% the runtime with the batterizer than without?
Might be prudent to ask for such. They must have at least one example, right? ;)
Jaye.
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Hey there Dave,
Rather than attempting to argue the general case with these nitwits, which will always provide room for the sort of marketing sleaze we've been seeing, perhaps it'd be better to get particular.
Have they ever provided a concrete example of a single *specific* product that will meet, say, half of their claim, and will operate for 400% the runtime with the batterizer than without?
Might be prudent to ask for such. They must have at least one example, right? ;)
Jaye.
They have a video of a GPS.... but their graphs of the current measurements seem really wack.... for some reason, it shows the current draw with the standard battery randomly dropping at one point...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c)
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I cannot understand how so many people backing this campaign can be so blind to the marketing bullshit.
4,183 of them have thrown away USD222k so far.
Even my 21 year old daughter, who is by no means an EE or physics expert was saying to me – “That looks like bullshit to me Dad”… And that was without any bias or prompting from me. I simply sent her the URL and asked her if she thought it was a good concept.
This is exactly what she said:
“Good concept, but after googling it, some guy called Dave Jones has got some YT saying its bullshit.
I don’t understand exactly what he is doing or saying in some of his videos, but there is a forum site that has a load of people agreeing him.
The thing looks like a bullshit lie to me.”
Then she asks me: “Have you seen the eevblog site?”… I laughed…
In my most humble opinion I believe that Indiegogo are as culpable to fraud as the Batteroo villains.
They (Indiegogo) stand to make money out of this and don’t want to put an end to it regardless of the fact that it is morally wrong to take money off people for snake oil.
To put things into perspective, I have backed campaigns on both IGG and KS, however I have always done my research into the “real” feasibility of the project. Everything I have backed has delivered so far... So I am not at all against the concept of crowd funding, I just think the crowd funding websites need to have a more rigid panel of “sanity checkers” that are looking for the fraudsters.
With the amount of money they are earing they can easily afford to pay a panel of experts in the relative field to veto the application to start a campaign and therefore preserve their own future revenue by only allowing achievable projects, even if they are only mildly achievable.
As IGG and KS become less credible I am far less likely to invest and this will cripple the people who have genuinely sound and clear projects to deliver to the world.
It is a pity the crowd funding sites are so greedy and appear to have deviated from their original moral principles.
My 10c...
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Interesting to see an actual product reviewed and tested.
I have started to believe that hoaxes like this can success because it seems that there are lot of people whom "believes everything if it is written on Internet". And if there is couple of videos to confirming the claim,..... it must be certainly true...
Axel.
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<snip>...
“Good concept, but after googling it, some guy called Dave Jones has got some YT saying its bullshit.
This ! :clap:
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There is a positive (+) side-effect to this Batteriser nonsense...
The publicity and trend for Dave's blog posts will raise a lot of new viewers that will be around long after the first battriser product has caught fire!
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Rather than attempting to argue the general case with these nitwits, which will always provide room for the sort of marketing sleaze we've been seeing, perhaps it'd be better to get particular.
Have they ever provided a concrete example of a single *specific* product that will meet, say, half of their claim, and will operate for 400% the runtime with the batterizer than without?
Might be prudent to ask for such. They must have at least one example, right? ;)
They have a video of a GPS.... but their graphs of the current measurements seem really wack.... for some reason, it shows the current draw with the standard battery randomly dropping at one point...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d485JCtGz5c)
Indeed. That graph of the regular battery measurements look pretty damn dodgy.
Can anyone identify the exact Garmin GPS used in the video? Dave seems to have an endless supply of GPS units: perhaps some comparison testing might be prudent?
Jaye.
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Dave, You should dig up some sort of motorized toy and some dead batteries and measure the voltage at the battery terminals with the toy off and turned on to show how the voltage on a dead battery drops under load.
I say grab the monkey, have David hold it down on the static mat and put a pair of Pamona probes up the jacksie! :-DD
Done and done!
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This probably started out as just as a well meaning idea, but then venture capital got involved and promises were made. Now Batteriser have entered the full on scam mode, denying every claim against their product and spreading as much confusing information as possible to keep non technical potential customers on their side.
IMO it is a full on scam at this stage. No one with a degree or even just basic knowledge in EE can justify this device and the claims made by the company.
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What's with that graph ?
Looks like on normal battery the min current slowly ramps up and drops off around the 1:30 mark then dies at 2:00. Is that normal behaviour for a gps ?
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What's with that graph ?
Looks like on normal battery the min current slowly ramps up and drops off around the 1:30 mark then dies at 2:00. Is that normal behaviour for a gps ?
I'd expect the current to increase as the voltage decreased, to keep the power the same.
I'm wondering if the GPS then went into some "low battery" mode, which resulted in the lower current draw.
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It is a Garmin Dakota that should have a 20h lifetime.
With the screen always on 10 hours seems fine.
About the graph difference:
The device needs a constant power, so as the voltage drops the current increase. Maybe then it enters in a lower power mode to work as long as possible.
The current is constant with the batteriser on because the voltage is constant.
One thing with their test: they measure the current, there is a shunt resistor so the voltage at the GPS drops way faster below the cutoff voltage...
With their thing the voltage stays at 1.5v so the drop of the shunt is not a problem.
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What's with that graph ?
Looks like on normal battery the min current slowly ramps up and drops off around the 1:30 mark then dies at 2:00. Is that normal behaviour for a gps ?
It's normal for one that has a built-in DC booster, ie. the batteriser does nothing except interfere with it.
If the battery dies after two hours they much have selected the wrong battery type in the menu (and I suspect it wasn't accidental - they deleted a comment that asked about that).
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On the GPS test, the current increases from 125ma, to 150ma... (before it goes into the weird mode)
Assuming its trying to do the same power, that means if it drew 125ma at 3volts. To draw 150ma, the batteries are down to 2.5volts, or 1.25volts per cell....
That appears to have occurred over a period of 90 minutes.
I have no idea where I'm going with this :-DD
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On the GPS test, the current increases from 125ma, to 150ma... (before it goes into the weird mode)
Assuming its trying to do the same power, that means if it drew 125ma at 3volts. To draw 150ma, the batteries are down to 2.5volts, or 1.25volts per cell....
That appears to have occurred over a period of 90 minutes.
I have no idea where I'm going with this :-DD
To quote myself, it would seem, that for a Duracell CopperTop, to drop to 1.25volts, in 90minutes, it would require you to have a 350ma load or so.... not the 150ma they had...
In other words, I don't think the two tests were done with the same brand cells.... :-//
EDIT!
They've shown the current draw of the gps as being around 150ma.... based on the Duracell datasheet, you can extrapolate that, based on the 1.25volt "low battery" mode, that you'll get somewhere around 8 hours run time....
As to what they did? :-//
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They've shown the current draw of the gps as being around 150ma.... based on the Duracell datasheet, you can extrapolate that, based on the 1.25volt "low battery" mode, that you'll get somewhere around 8 hours run time....
As to what they did? :-//
We can only assume, but... they most likely selected an incorrect battery type and the GPS shut itself down even though the battery was still OK.
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They've shown the current draw of the gps as being around 150ma.... based on the Duracell datasheet, you can extrapolate that, based on the 1.25volt "low battery" mode, that you'll get somewhere around 8 hours run time....
As to what they did? :-//
We can only assume, but... they most likely selected an incorrect battery type and the GPS shut itself down even though the battery was still OK.
Based on the current draw increase, assuming a starting voltage of 1.5volts, it shut down at around 1.25volts.
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We can only assume, but... they most likely selected an incorrect battery type and the GPS shut itself down even though the battery was still OK.
I asked on the Youtube page and they actually replied :o
They claim they used the Alkaline battery setting.
You'd think they would have said that in the video or description though.
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If the battery dies after two hours they much have selected the wrong battery type in the menu (and I suspect it wasn't accidental - they deleted a comment that asked about that).
They replied to my comment, they claim to use the Alkaline setting.
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Hmmm. Dave, do you have any contacts with guys in the battery industry? It would be awesome if you could get someone to do a phone interview. That would be some real interesting stuff.
Look who's on top when you search YouTube for 'batteriser' (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=batteriser)... I bet they're really scared now. :)
Unless you used a proxy, and a new IP, and cleared all your history and cashe, google will just give you what it thinks you want. I assumed everyone knew that by now, no? Your google search isn't my google search, each one is custom based on your gmail/google/youtube search history.
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... based on the 1.25volt "low battery" mode ...
And why do you assume that low battery kicks in at 1.25V per cell? If they accidentally >:D left the type setting at lithium, thresholds levels probably be ridiculous considering alkaline discharge curves.
because 125ma at 3volts is 375milliwatt... and 375milliwatt at 150ma, is 2.5volts ;) and 150ma is where the gps appeared to go into some power saver type mode.
and even if the cutoff could/should be lower than 2.5volts/1.25volts per cell, it still should have about 8 hours run time off decent AA cells, with its ~150ma current draw!
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They replied to my comment, they claim to use the Alkaline setting.
What about voltage drop in the wires and the ammeter?
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The GPS seems to be a Garmin Dakota 20, the owner's manual says:
"Optimizing Battery Life Use premium batteries for optimal performance and maximum battery life. The best performance is provided by lithium batteries, precharged (ready-to-use) NiMH batteries, and NiMH rechargeable batteries less than one year old with a capacity greater than 2500mAh.Consider the following suggestions to maximize battery life:
•Do not adjust the backlight more than is necessary (page 3). Using a backlight level above 50% of maximum level for a prolonged period of time will significantly decrease battery life.
•Select a shorter backlight timeout (page 22).
•Turn tones off if not needed
•Turn the electronic compass off if not needed (page 28)"
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and even if the cutoff could/should be lower than 2.5volts/1.25volts per cell, it still should have about 8 hours run time off decent AA cells, with its ~150ma current draw!
I would suspect that it could be much higher than 1.25V, hence the early shutdown happened.
It didn't actually shut down at that point, it changed modes, and started drawing less current for another half an hour.... wait! half my previous numbers were wrong, as I read the first division on the graph as 1 hours, not 2... so it ran for about 90 minutes before changing modes...
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The current draw is not constant, but it seems to be an average of 175 mA, but we can conservative and say 200 mA. How on earth can it last for no more than 2 hours?
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Hmmm. Dave, do you have any contacts with guys in the battery industry? It would be awesome if you could get someone to do a phone interview. That would be some real interesting stuff.
Look who's on top when you search YouTube for 'batteriser' (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=batteriser)... I bet they're really scared now. :)
Unless you used a proxy, and a new IP, and cleared all your history and cashe, google will just give you what it thinks you want. I assumed everyone knew that by now, no? Your google search isn't my google search, each one is custom based on your gmail/google/youtube search history.
800% baloney indeed pop up on top of the search even if you go stealth. Changing IP is not necessary BTW.
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If the battery dies after two hours they much have selected the wrong battery type in the menu (and I suspect it wasn't accidental - they deleted a comment that asked about that).
They replied to my comment, they claim to use the Alkaline setting.
They also claim that most users wanted to see results for high end cameras and GPS devices.
Weirdly enough: Those are the exact same devices that EEVBLOG forum members predicted the batteriser might be worth using with.
(and they're also not the devices the super-smart PHDs were using last week to demonstrate the benefits of batteriser).
Hmmm.
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The current draw is not constant, but it seems to be an average of 175 mA, but we can conservative and say 200 mA. How on earth can it last for no more than 2 hours?
by having it shut off at 1.39volts, like most devices do? :-DD
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The Garmin Dakota 20 supports three battery types, Alkaline, Lithium and Rechargeable NiMH. The type of battery you use has to be specified in the menu (Setup -> System -> Battery Type). If they are complete scam artists, as I suspect, they may as well have selected Lithium battery in the menu while using alkaline.
I've seen devices on lithium batteries with cutoff voltages as low as 2.75 V/cell, but frequently in the 3 V/cell range I'd think? The fresh batteries were 3.240 V, so is it likely?
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How much does the GPS unit cost? Maybe Dave should buy one... :-X :-X :-X
Alexander.
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How much does the GPS unit cost? Maybe Dave should buy one... :-X :-X :-X
Nope.
The only thought in their heads right now is surviving until the indiegogo thing is finished.
Anything that takes a week to arrive or allows them to stall for a few days is what they want. The only way ahead is to get enough complaints through to IndieGoGo that they pull the campaign.
I've already posted a list of the many ways they're breaking the IGG terms of service here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/msg729686/#msg729686 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/msg729686/#msg729686)
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I am sure there will a local Garmin dealer in Syndey with this gps unit. ;D
Alexander.
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It would appear their 800% claim came from this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4zjWynjEo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4zjWynjEo)
13% battery, being boosted to 1.5volts, so the indicator shows 100%...
I guess seeing as batteries store 1.5volts of energy, it all makes sense!
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Don't waste your breath on IndieGogo... I have sent complaints for even more scammy campaigns and nothing is ever done.
The marketing bull$#!t aside, the product does appear to exist and boost a voltage. They have way more dubious complete garbage products (see the "crowd-funding" sub forum here on EEVBlog) which nobody has successfully had IGG cancel due to complaints.
So save your breath. IGG couldn't care less as long as they get their cut.
The best strategy I think is to keep encouraging young and old people alike to foster an interest in basic science and electronics with places like EEVBLOG where people from all walks of life can learn. If anything, this Batteriser debate has done more to help promote EEVBlog than it has to market Batteriser. This is the best thing about having this open forum.
The more we discuss these and other projects, the more videos by Dave and others, the higher the search rank in Google, the word will get out to those who want to hear it. People have to want to hear it though. You can't force a fool to keep their money.
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On a different note... When you boost voltage don't you get a drop in current? Power is VxI so wouldn't the current drop as a result? This is assuming ideal zero loss converter. Devices don't just need voltage to run, they need a steady current to provide the power needed. The reason joule-thieves work is because an LED uses a tiny amount of current, much lower than what a drained battery puts out, so you can keep tapping the battery a long time. Remote controls and low current devices with very limited active states can also benefit if they have an issue with the voltage but can operate with little current. You just trade one for the other. I guess a well designed device is going to have something like a Batteriser build into it already. But even if it didn't, it seems only a few low current devices might benefit from this booster. Also, if you have a system in place at home to cycle your batteries from high drain devices down to medium and then low, you can milk a battery yourself and prolong it's use instead of chucking it into landfill. I keep my batteries and they often end up in the remote. Another trick is if the remote takes 2 batteries I sometimes switch the order of the batteries and it keeps going for a while longer. I should sell that on IndieGogo.... I'll call it the "Reorderiser". :palm:
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On a different note... When you boost voltage don't you get a drop in current? Power is VxI so wouldn't the current drop as a result?
Ohm's law...?
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This whole campaign is really frustrating to watch. There is clearly conflict of interest from people whom they interview.
Of course.
The Indiegogo video has the former CEO of K-Mart, because he's on the Batteriser board as the Chief Strategy Officer.
And it seems all the professors they are getting to support it are colleagues.
It's a big circle jerk thinking they have the greatest invention in history ::)
Does anyone know how much money is actually involved in this company?
No idea. But clearly they are not just relying on the Indiegogo money. The money they must have already spent on the professional videos and marketing must be a lot. I suspect they don't really need the Indiegogo money, it's probably just a big pre-sales marketing vehicle and looks good to future investors.
Clearly it looks like they are smoking their own Dope.
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That patent is ridiculous!
If one were to assume that the time versus the voltage drop is a linear function
It is very much not. |O
The time it takes for the battery voltage to drop by 0.1V is longer at lower voltages versus at higher voltages.
...it is longer in the middle, conveniently ignoring the lower part of the discharge curve... :palm:
It is smarter to build the electronic into the battery: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Kentli%20AA%202800mWh%20%28Blue%29%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Kentli%20AA%202800mWh%20%28Blue%29%20UK.html)
Very interesting... so the Chinese have effectively already shown what a battery with a switching regulator behaves like. Possible prior art? A quick search shows these self-regulated AAs have been around since 2013.
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Yeah, that's certainly at the forefront of the controversy. I did find it interesting that they have considered that it could be added to a battery during manufacture. I assume if that were to happen it could be done very cheaply since it would be effectively disposable single use.
Never going to happen, even if it cost nothing to integrate into the battery, because of the simple fact that it would render all battery guages in every product non-functional. Actually worse than non-functional, it would show 100% all the time and then your product dies instantly. No one would buy such a battery that did this.
You also won't see this product incorporated directly into batteries due to environmental concerns.
Consider the number of batteries that are thrown out every hour in your country, let alone in the US..
Each of those batteries now contains materials that not only make them more difficult to recycle but pose an environmental hazard.
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Why not build it into the device!
Oh, right, they already do...
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I just watched the video. If I got it correctly, the argument is that the series resistance doesn't matter because the voltage is measured directly at the monkey's contacts. This assumes that the current consumption is steady right?
Consider this theoretical load. It alternates fast between two states with 50% duty cycle:
State A: I = 1ua, required min v = 1V
State B: I = 1A, required min v = 0.6V
With a zero ohm source resistance, the load will stop working at 1VDC measured at the load (it breaks state A requirement).
With 0.4 ohm source resistance, the load stop working at 0.8V DC measured at the load (source is at 1V, load voltage alternates between 1V in state A and 0.6V in state B).
This shows that there are scenarios (possibly theoretical only) where the serial resistance does matter, even if we measure the voltage at the source.
Anything wrong with this analysis?
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The best strategy I think is to keep encouraging young and old people alike to foster an interest in basic science and electronics with places like EEVBLOG where people from all walks of life can learn. If anything, this Batteriser debate has done more to help promote EEVBlog than it has to market Batteriser. This is the best thing about having this open forum.
The more we discuss these and other projects, the more videos by Dave and others, the higher the search rank in Google, the word will get out to those who want to hear it. People have to want to hear it though. You can't force a fool to keep their money.
So very true! :-+
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This shows that there are scenarios (possibly theoretical only) where the serial resistance does matter, even if we measure the voltage at the source.
Yes, because of the fact that the low battery voltage warning/cutoff/whatever in a product, is always taken form the battery terminals. So nothing else matters.
You can get into pulse loads etc, cold start and torque motor loads in the monkey etc, but that's essentially a red herring.
The tutorial was about how battery cutoff voltages are determined in a product. The low impedance PSU is used to determine the lowest cutout voltage that includes any dips on pulses. If whatever battery you use in your device can't maintain that cutout voltage with pulse loads, then that's an issue with the battery, not one of product cutout voltage.
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Weirdly enough: Those are the exact same devices that EEVBLOG forum members predicted the batteriser might be worth using with.
I'm pretty sure they are mining this thread and my Youtube video comments for ideas. Give them an inch and they'll likely run a mile with it.
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Dave!
Don't waste more energy on these obviously incompetent statements and video!
They have just made their own grave and I cannot see how they ever could be trusted again for even the simplest thing?
Their product is completely dead to everyone with minimum knowhow of batteries. And they brought it on themselves! :-DD
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It would appear their 800% claim came from this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4zjWynjEo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4zjWynjEo)
13% battery, being boosted to 1.5volts, so the indicator shows 100%...
I guess seeing as batteries store 1.5volts of energy, it all makes sense!
I tested the trackpad and found the cutout voltage to be 0.95V. I posted that in another thread. If I need to buy a wireless keyboard and go through that too I will. Pretty sure I will get the same result since I doubt they use a different radio.
The Garmin Dakota is a pretty old GPS. It can be had off Amazon, but I'm not sure about local availability.
================
Dr. Bob,
Can you please retract your more, shall we say, "optimistic" claims? That way we don't have to keep on going down this road. I will source these devices, and I'm fairly certain we both know what I'll find.
I want to think that you're a good person that has been trapped into this Silicon Valley startup lottery mania. I want to think that this marketing campaign has been hatched out of investors' needs for a miracle device, instead of a good device that solves a true problem for users of legacy or poorly engineered devices. And the latter is a FINE business model, and shame on the lottery culture for not supporting what could be a nice business. I would love to see you and your brother succeed and making such devices better.
We are engineers. We have a social responsibility to telling the truth. When we abandon the truth, society suffers, and we lose credibility. Will any great tragedy result from the mere doubling up of boost converters? Almost certainly not. But the failed promise will simply bring discredit to the profession. It will be yet another opportunity for someone to sneer, "well that's what engineers said about <fill in the blank>."
That does not mean we don't make mistakes. We all do, and that's why we have peer review. This venture seems like more than a mistake. If I thought you were a fool, I would dismiss it as such. But, you are not a fool. You are a highly educated man and I'm sure you are aware that the truth is being substantially "bent."
Please reconsider what you're doing.
Thanks.
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I just took a look at the "batteriser" site. Wow, just wow! A group of apparently successful, educated people running this! An awful lot of money has been spent on marketing and production "values." I wonder what kind of insurance they have, it's a class-action lawsuit waiting to happen.
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The Garmin Dakota is a pretty old GPS. It can be had off Amazon, but I'm not sure about local availability.
Dave's a geocacher, I'm pretty sure he probably has 10 friends with Dakotas if he doesn't already have one (or two). In fact as a geocacher/electronics hoarder, I'm sure he has (pick at least four of the below):
- eTrex (Yellow)
- eTrex Legend
- Rino 120/130
- Garmin 73/76
- Dakota
- Oregon
- some Magellan (and then realized he really preferred Gamin)
The test would be valid against pretty much any of them.
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I just took a look at the "batteriser" site. Wow, just wow! A group of apparently successful, educated people running this! An awful lot of money has been spent on marketing and production "values." I wonder what kind of insurance they have, it's a class-action lawsuit waiting to happen.
Looks to me more like a conscious effort to promote a scam.
While the BS meter is not pinned against the stop is just off the scale at 80+ DB over S-9.
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I just dug deep down in my pile of old gizmos, and I found an old Garmin eMap. It is so old that it does NOT have a setting for the battery type. Instead the manual states that when used with NiCd or NiMH, the battery status will not show full with fully charged batteries, and that this is not a defect :-DD
Anyway, I think it is time to do some measuring on it.
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Guys, did you see Batteroo comment below their video? :-DD
"The best way to measure the cut of voltage of any battery operated device is not to use the bench power supply but instead use batteries. Then to get an accurate cut off voltage of the device; one should directly hook up it's battery terminals to a Data logger that is recording both voltage and current; and operate the device until it stops functioning. Using this technique one can determine the operating voltage of the device and take all guess work out of it!"
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Garmin eMap has been tested. It's cutoff voltage is about 2.130V +/- a little (it uses 2 x AA batteries). 1.06-1.07 V/cell.
And sorry, but no I didn't use actual batteries. I used a power supply, and measured the voltage right on the battery terminals in the monk..... ehhh GPS.
I am tempted to run down a pair of actual batteries, while logging the voltage all the way. That will have to wait until the weekend though.
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Following Daves #779 video I opened up an AA cell.
I couldn't find the resistor 'Rs' anywhere. Please help..
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I'm not sure if anyone saw this but on the Batterizer video the dude has his oscilloscope hooked up to the test signal contacts on the oscilloscope which are used for probe compensation. The square wave looked pretty shitty.
:palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:
Edit: Just read all the post comments.. Dave mentions it at sometime
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I am tempted to run down a pair of actual batteries, while logging the voltage all the way. That will have to wait until the weekend though.
Can't you do it this evening ? It will just take you 2 hours :-DD
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Way to long for such simple concept. (only watched the beginning so I know what it was about)
The key is to keep the battery properties, battery properties and product properties, product properties and not mix them up.
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I'm not sure if anyone saw this but on the Batterizer video the dude has his oscilloscope hooked up to the test signal contacts on the oscilloscope which are used for probe compensation. The square wave looked pretty shitty.
:palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:
Edit: Just read all the post comments.. Dave mentions it at sometime
I saw that along with the never used soldering iron.
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Regarding the GPS test-setup... I guess by measuring current, those flimsy wires and connectors, they just added a significant voltage drop to the setup which lets the GPS think it drained the batteries way too early. Since the batteriser supplies a constant voltage, the voltage drop has no effect over time, it just has to be low enough to get the GPS running at all. You can actually see a bargraph indicator on the top left of the display, showing one red bar constantly on all scenes. Is that the battery indicator? Couldn't find a manual for that device... If it is: assumption confirmed ;)
To measure the current, they use a Hantek 365A/B/C/D/E/F, I think. But it's manual doesn't say what internal shunt resistor is used...
They actually also measure the voltage of the battery with a DATAQ DI-145, but they don't give us the values :(
I'm curious why, they'd confirm that the GPS has a cutout voltage of ~1.3V :-DD
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Hello Dave,
you have my deepest respect for your endurance and power to bash this marketing bullshit. |O |O |O |O |O
It's a tough job, but some got to do it! :-+
Keep on educating!
Regards
Falk
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Got this reply from Indiegogo:
Hi there,
Thank you for sharing your concern with us. At this time, the campaign is under review to ensure that it adheres to our Terms of Use (http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms (http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms)). We will follow up with you if we have any further questions.
So what happens now? We will include the information you have provided along with all other information at our disposal in our review of the campaign. In some cases, we will contact the campaign owner to have them edit their campaign and it will remain on our platform. If the project doesn't follow our rules, we may remove the campaign. We may also restrict the campaign owner's future activities on Indiegogo.
To protect our users' privacy, we're unable to share the action we take. At Indiegogo, we take the trust and safety of our community very seriously, and we greatly appreciate your patience and understanding throughout this review process. To learn more about Indiegogo’s Trust & Safety effort, please visit: www.indiegogo.com/trust (http://www.indiegogo.com/trust)
Please note that you do not need to contact us again. Doing so would create a new ticket and prolong the process. Thank you again for taking the time to get in touch with us and for helping to keep Indiegogo a safe and secure platform.
Sounds like a default reply to complaints. Maybe they'll do something if enough people report them... :-\
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They have a video of a GPS.... but their graphs of the current measurements seem really wack.... for some reason, it shows the current draw with the standard battery randomly dropping at one point...
Yeah, looks really weird, I don't get it either.
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I have someone at Garmin helping me with the engineering data on the GPS. I have yet to find a unit to test. If there is someone in the Spokane, WA, USA area that has a Garmin Dakota and could loan it to me, please PM me.
I will have an Apple keyboard tested by this evening. I'd like to suggest that we start a separate thread that is limited to data only from Batteriser's claims.
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They have a video of a GPS.... but their graphs of the current measurements seem really wack.... for some reason, it shows the current draw with the standard battery randomly dropping at one point...
Yeah, looks really weird, I don't get it either.
It's not random, it is when the GPS reduces the background light and tells you to replace the battery
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They have a video of a GPS.... but their graphs of the current measurements seem really wack.... for some reason, it shows the current draw with the standard battery randomly dropping at one point...
Yeah, looks really weird, I don't get it either.
It's not random, it is when the GPS reduces the background light and tells you to replace the battery
Ahh, yes, that makes sense... And you might be right that they have added enough series resistance that they confuse the GPS's low battery detection.
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From: http://batteriser.com/batteriser-technical-qa/ (http://batteriser.com/batteriser-technical-qa/)
They're still sticking to the 0.5V claim. The circuit might work to 0.5V, but as has been shown ad nauseum, there is essentially no energy left in the battery below 0.8V.
The long existence of DC-DC converters is "proof" that the Batteriser will work. :palm: No Bob, it's proof that you can't do arithmetic. If I daisy-chain two 90% efficient DC-DC converters, the overall efficiency is 81%.
But wait! We have a small victory. Batteroo now admits that the quiescent current of their device will actually be detrimental to the battery life of devices such as remote controls, whose users typically go years between battery changes. So, Bob, you going to remove the photo of the remote control from your Indigogo page? See below if you've forgotten. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x#/story)
I noticed that you're still sticking to the Apple Trackpad as a device that will benefit, even though I've shown that to be wrong. The cut out voltage is 0.95V, and it is fully functional to that point.
By tonight I will have tested a fresh-out-of-the-wrapper Apple wireless keyboard. I have it in-hand. Any wagers on the dropout voltage?
So, we're very nearly to having disproved nearly every claim you're making about these devices. I'm going to cede you the cheap flashlight, the RC car, and John Boehner's monkey.
Batteriser Technical Q&A
Question 1: In the articles I have seen about Batteriser, your CEO claims that most battery operated devices stop working at around 1.3 or even higher. I have seen videos online that someone connects a power supply and shows that some typical devices work down to 1.1V or even lower, showing LED’s on a device still blink at that level. What is the explanation?
Answer: There are multiple aspects to this issue. Let’s start with the less complicated aspect:
1. Just because LED in a device is blinking, it doesn’t mean the device is fully functional. In one of our experiments with an RC remote, at 1.3 volt the car would only go forward, but not backwards. We use the voltage that the device is no longer fully functional as the cut off voltage rather than the voltage that the device’s LED is still blinking. In yet another example that most people can relate to, we all have had experience with our TV remotes. Once a battery gets to a low level, even though the LED blinks, you literally have to walk right up to the TV for it to work. Again, the batteries are considered dead by most, long before LED’s stop blinking. So the levels demonstrated in experiments like that are artificially too low.
2. Using a Power Supply to detect, where a battery operated device stops working is wrong and misleading at best. A power supply has 0 ohm impedance and can supply high current at a constant voltage. A typical AA battery has internal resistance called ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) which is vastly different than an ideal power supply. Most electronic engineers are not very familiar with intricate details of the inter-workings of batteries and its equivalent circuit models. Batteries have an internal impedance or resistance (ESR) that plays a major role in operation of a battery in a system. To Quote from Wikipedia: In use, the voltage across the terminals of a disposable battery driving a load decreases until it drops too low to be useful; this is largely due to an increase in internal resistance rather than a drop in the voltage of the equivalent source (source: Wikipedia). In other words, when a battery is perceived to be dead in a device, it is most likely NOT because the battery is fully depleted of energy, rather it is largely due to voltage drop across this internal resistance of the battery. I will get into more details below.
3. The third aspect may be the difference in definition of the voltages being quoted. There are two distinct ways of looking at voltages that people discuss but sometimes mistakenly interchange. One is the Open Circuit Voltage (referred to voltage at no load condition) and the other one is the Closed Voltage Circuit (referred to voltage under load condition). The two numbers that are quoted from the CEO and your question is an example of this incorrect interchange.
To fully appreciate the totality of the picture, Let us talk about ESR (Equivalent Series Resistor). To understand how ESR interacts at a circuit level, let’s go to Wikipedia:
A practical electrical power source which is a linear electric circuit may, according to Thévenin’s theorem, be represented as an ideal voltage source in series with an impedance. This impedance is termed the internal resistance of the source. When the power source delivers current, the measured voltage output is lower than the no-load voltage; the difference is the voltage drop (the product of current and resistance) caused by the internal resistance.
A battery may be modeled as a voltage source in series with a resistance. In practice, the internal resistance of a battery is dependent on its size, chemical properties, age, temperature, and the discharge current. It has an electronic component due to the resistivity of the component materials and an ionic component due to electrochemical factors such as electrolyte conductivity, ion mobility, and electrode surface area. Measurement of the internal resistance of a battery is a guide to its condition, but may not apply at other than the test conditions.
In use, the voltage across the terminals of a disposable battery driving a load decreases until it drops too low to be useful; this is largely due to an increase in internal resistance rather than a drop in the voltage of the equivalent source.
To learn more, please, visit Energizer’s technical Bulletin at http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/BatteryIR.pdf. (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/BatteryIR.pdf.) The data from this bulletin shows that the typical effective resistance of fresh Energizer alkaline cylindrical batteries will be approximately 150 to 300 m-ohms at room temperature. It further shows that at very cold temperatures, this initial internal resistance value could be as high as 900 m-ohm, or roughly 1 ohm. This resistance further increases as the battery is used. Therefore the ESR value of a fresh new AA battery has an approximate range of 150 m-ohm to 900 m-ohm depending on temperature, chemistry, types and brands of batteries. While a resistance of 1 ohm may be considered insignificant and ignored by some people, we will see that it plays a major role in the final analysis as highlighted above in the Wikipedia description in the paragraph above.
For the sake of this analysis, assume 0.5 ohm as the internal resistance, which is a typical value for a battery at 1.3v (Open Circuit Voltage). If a device draws 400mA of current, the drop across this internal resistance is around 0.2v. This means that the device would see only 1.1V at the terminal of the battery.
The third aspect of the question is that when Batteroo’s CEO talks about batteries stop functioning at 1.3V, if you place that battery in a device described above, under load, the terminals of the battery would provide only 1.1V to the device and that is where the questioner agrees the device stops functioning. This is most likely the source of the discrepancy between what you stated as the low range of operation of devices vs. what is quoted as the open voltage of the batteries by the company.
Going back to your question that there are devices that operate at 1.1V but based on what we just showed this device will not function because it needs to have current supplied from a battery with terminal voltage of 1.1 V. This means that the device would not be functioning properly around 1.3 V open voltage circuit (i.e. open circuit voltage of 1.3 v minus about 0.2v drop across ESR would produce a battery terminal voltage of 1.1 v seen by the device) …. Therefore the battery open voltage circuit must be 1.3 v or higher.
This is an important point which plays a significant role and has been missed and ignored. In other words, once a device with the operating point of 1.1v stops working, and the battery is pulled out and measured without load, the meter would show 1.3V. This has been a source of confusion for some people that hopefully is cleared.
To emphasize the point, ignoring the internal resistance of the battery leads to wrong conclusions. For example, some who ignored the ESR, would wrongly assume that a device that has an operating cut off voltage of 1.1V, can be serviced by a battery at 1.1V Open Circuit Voltage. It is noteworthy that the internal resistance of the battery increases to over 1.5 ohm in a non-linear fashion at room temperature (depending on many factors, and could be significantly higher at colder temperature.
Question 2: I measured a used battery voltage using volt-meter and showed 1.2v. This toy can work all the way down to 1.1v but it is not working. Why?
Answer: The fact that your battery is not working indicates that the closed circuit voltage is seen by the toy when is turned on is less than 1 volt. This suggests that your voltage drop across the internal resistance (ESR) is greater than 0.2 volts.
This 0.2 voltage drop is multiplication of load current and the ESR value of battery which indicated that the battery has high ESR and/or your toy is drawing a few hundred milliamps of current…
Let us say your toy is drawing 300 ma and the battery ESR is about 0.7 ohm, then your toy sees the terminal battery voltage to be under 1 volt; (i.e. open circuit of 1.2v minus the voltage drop across ESR 0.7 ohm times 300 ma is equal to closed circuit voltage of about 0.99 volt which is under 1 volt)
Question 3: The relationship between current and voltage makes it impossible for a boosted battery to deliver such great gains, up to 8x. Besides the example below, there’s this one from Reddit: “In order to increase the voltage supplied to the target electronics, you would have to draw more current. Therefore as the battery voltage droops, the current draw will increase. Alkaline battery capacity is greatly affected by the current the cell is subjected to, with effective capacity dropping off a cliff as the current consumption increases.”
Answer: Every system, boosted or not, has voltage and currents relationship and to say: “The relationship between current and voltage makes it impossible for a boosted battery to deliver such great gains, from 5x to 8x” is meaningless. However the most important aspect of extending the life of the battery has to do with how much of the energy left in the battery and how much of that energy can be harnessed after the battery is considered dead, depending on the specifics of devices and load conditions. Obviously to get these types of gains implies that there is significant amount of energy left in the battery as it is discarded. That could be improved by better device design that allow the circuitry to work at lower voltages, and there are devices in the market that are better than others and therefore the mileage would vary based on such factors.
It is true that as the voltage drops, there is some increase in the current. However that current is being consumed from the energy that was in the battery and was going to be discarded at the point it was perceived to be dead.
Question 4: How does flash light benefit from Batteriser?
Answer: There are two types of devices, one with Passive load and the other with Active load:
1. Passive loads such as Flashlights that draw the current out of the battery until it is depleted, but the intensity of the light becomes too low for it to be useful. We measured the intensity of the light from a flashlight on a side by side comparison of, with and without Batteriser. They both started at 60 lux and after two hours, the flashlight utilizing the Batteriser maintained its 60 lux light intensity while the flashlight without Batteriser decreased its intensity to 25 lux.
2. Active Loads such as electronic devices that usually have a cut off voltage.
Question 5: There are some well-built devices have dc-dc conversion (or similar power management) built in, so Batteriser wouldn’t help. For example, this comment was made on Reddit: “For something like a GameBoy, it actually DOES include a good switching power supply, which is why it got great runtime out of those batteries. The DMG01 was quite happy down to nearly 3V (less than 0.8V per cell, anyway).”
Answer: The question above is an actual proof of why the Batteriser is going to extend the life of the battery. The assertion that a GameBoy device is benefiting from a DC-DC and getting “great runtime” is a validation of the concept of the Batteriser. There are systems that have or may have designed these types of converters inside their electronics. Such devices are usually expensive and putting the added cost of the electronics is offset by the competitive advantage gained relative to their competition. As well, this example implies that the system must have 4 AA batteries. There are regulators in the market that would boost voltages at these levels. Batteriser uses a boost circuitry that can work down to 0.5v. You will not find any solutions in the market that allows systems with single battery boosting capabilities. Batteroo had to design a custom IC that allows boosting of the voltage from 0.5V and currents of over one Amp steady state at very high efficiency. In many systems that use one AA battery, there is no solutions in the market to provide the same benefits of extended life.
Question 6: In low-drain devices like (I assume) a TV remote, the actual shelf life of the battery will be over before the Batteriser delivers noticeable gains. For example, this comment on Macworld: “Since most batteries (excluding some lithium types) have shelf lives of say 5 years or less, then taking a low drain application scenario where the batteries will naturally last two years or more (i.e. a remote…), then boosting the battery life by the claimed 8X would mean your 5 years shelf-life battery would be “good-to-go” for up to 40 years! Doesn’t take an engineer to tell you “it ain’t gonna happen!!”
Answer: Batteriser does work with voltage and current, regardless of the chemistry. We have seen improvement even with lithium battery. For those folks that change a battery every 5 years, we recommend not to utilize Batteriser technology. However if you are like most of us living in an average household having 25 battery operated devices and having to continuously change batteries, Batteriser would certainly be a good choice to extend the time between battery changes by 8x depending on the end device.”
Hopefully, this article will put an end to all the guessing and skepticism coming from the market. All the official testers and researchers found the product to be extremely effective. Only those who have not seen or tried the product are claiming the product can’t work. The Batteriser team suggests all skeptical hobbyist or engineers should buy the product and try for themselves, starting at only $2.50 per unit.
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And they've raised another 8 grand overnight... I assume consumer laws don't come in to play for indiegogo campaigns, so if it's not fit for purpose, or doesn't do as described, the consumer can't do a thing?
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I think that this is someone who took the Joule Thief idea and took it a step further.
The Monkey is not the best load to demonstrate.
I guess there is a motor in there and motors are notorious for needing 8 times the nominal current to start.
The motor in the monkey is under load when it starts so start current is even worse.
Maybe it is a good idea to put a variable resistor in series with the power supply and increase the resistance to demonstrate the battery terminal voltage drop under load.
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What they should've done: Speak about the Pulse-Currents and the associated voltage-drop, causing devices to fail/deem batteries dead. Wouldn't help them to hold up the 8x more energy from a battery, but at least nobody would laugh at them (so loud) :D
btw. 17 hours ago, they claimed that the correct way is to put a battery into your device and measure at the battery-terminals with the device active and then log the data to find out when the device can't function anymore.
I answered if they would wait for a year if the device is a low-power device - looking forward to their answer :D
Screenshot of that statement attached.
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I answered if they would wait for a year if the device is a low-power device - looking forward to their answer :D
Screenshot of that statement attached.
Answer: Batteriser does work with voltage and current, regardless of the chemistry. We have seen improvement even with lithium battery. For those folks that change a battery every 5 years, we recommend not to utilize Batteriser technology.
They've already backed off the claim that the Batteriser will be good for low-drain devices such as remote controls. See the clip from their FAQs above. It will be interesting to see if they answer you.
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I answered if they would wait for a year if the device is a low-power device - looking forward to their answer :D
Screenshot of that statement attached.
They've already backed off the claim that the Batteriser will be good for low-drain devices such as remote controls. See the clip from their FAQs above. It will be interesting to see if they answer you.
But then the question is, how high is a high drain device?
if the device needs 500ma at 1.5volts, and now you're trying to boost the voltage from 1volt, up to 1.5volts, now you're drawing 750ma, at 1volt... which is going to last about 5 seconds before the voltage drops to a level that can no longer run the batteriser.... so as far as I can see, in a high drain device, you're going to, at best, get the same run time.... assuming you extract a tiny bit more power from the battery, this will be cancelled out by the loss of efficiency....
and I'm posting my video link again!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuaA-rUBmEc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuaA-rUBmEc)
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This response vidio from them makes me more cross than the original product. Having a product that dose nothing is one thing... but putting out factually incorrect info is much worse. We should complain about this behaviour to the university where this professor lectures. It dose bring that university into disrepute.
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I am still blown away that someone with a Ph.D. would knowingly undermine their profession by supporting a false claim. Or unknowingly support a false claim. I don't know what is worse.
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The monkey is a toy. It is an ideal load to use because parents by lots of batteries for toys. The battery marketing over the last 30 years has used toys in TV commercials. Just about everyone has heard of the "Energizer Bunny".
But thats just it.... while the toy may run slower, its still going to work, whereas, if you're boosting the voltage, to maintain it, you're actually going to be drawing more power from the battery, resulting in a shorter run time!
If anything, they should have made a device to buck/boost the voltage to 1.2volts, to maintain the performance over the battery life, and possibly increase the run time, although in reality, you'd still most likely get no increased run time.... and still, this only applies to resistive loads...
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If anything, they should have made a device to buck/boost the voltage to 1.2volts, to maintain the performance over the battery life, and possibly increase the run time, although in reality, you'd still most likely get no increased run time.... and still, this only applies to resistive loads...
Yeah exactly. There are IC's that use less power at lower voltages so a down-converter make sense if you wan't to prolong battery life, in fact a linear regulator might be better than nothing. But ideally such circuitry should already be part of the device if it's well designed.
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We are looking at certain scenarios where the Batteriser will help. A device that needs a nominal minimal input voltage (perhaps to overcome forward voltage drops from various components) simply to be able to function.... Yet the anticipated trade-off in current is not enough to make the device stop.
For example, if the toy needs 1.1 V and can still work at as low as 200 mA, and the battery is capable of supplying 300 mA but is only producing 0.9v, the limiting factor is the voltage being too low. Throw in a booster and you may creep above the 1.1v minimum yet although the current would drop down from 300 mA to maybe 250 mA it would allow the toy to keep working a while longer until it drops below 200mA.
It seems like we need to meet both conditions for the Batteriser to even have any hope. So it seems highly device dependent and although it may compensate for the voltage by boosting it, you are still not going to know if your particular device will demand higher current (which the boost in voltage may have lowered the current below the minimum threshold) .
And ultimately it will not last long, as the current dropout will accelerate quickly after that.
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The batteriser will work 24/7? I think it is a disadvantage for devices with sleep modes or devices like remote controls (time_on << time_off).
Alexander.
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For example, if the toy needs 1.1 V and can still work at as low as 200 mA, and the battery is capable of supplying 300 mA but is only producing 0.9v, the limiting factor is the voltage being too low. Throw in a booster and you may creep above the 1.1v minimum yet although the current would drop down from 300 mA to maybe 250 mA it would allow the toy to keep working a while longer until it drops below 200mA.
But if the battery can do 300ma at 0.9volts, chances are its going to do 1.1volts with only a 200ma load... so all the batteriser is doing, is boosting the voltage, to decrease the (final) current, to end up with the same power anyway....
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Did they say what university he was from? I don't remember seeing it if they did. It is embarrassing to watch this unfold but I disagree that it is serious enough to damage the university. The veracity of the technical content to my mind is of far lesser significance than the possibility misleading statements were made in pursuit of commercial gain.
As someone posted earlier
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/msg729972/#msg729972 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/msg729972/#msg729972)
It appears to be this guy from CSU East Bay, and he does not appear to be a professor, he just graduated last year:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopheruken (https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopheruken)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=165069;image)
Dr. Roohparvar is however a professor at CSU East Bay
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So, we're very nearly to having disproved nearly every claim you're making about these devices. I'm going to cede you the cheap flashlight, the RC car, and John Boehner's monkey.
We have not see any prove at all the Batteriser actually works or gives any improvement in operational life in either an RC car or the Monkey.
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So, we're very nearly to having disproved nearly every claim you're making about these devices. I'm going to cede you the cheap flashlight, the RC car, and John Boehner's monkey.
We have not see any prove at all the Batteriser actually works or gives any improvement in operational life in either an RC car or the Monkey.
I'm being a bit facetious with those. The keyboard will be tested tonight. I'm not going to waste my time videoing it, but will post a table that anyone could duplicate. I'm even tempted to order some 0.1 to 0.3 ohm current shunts just to prove that the physics matches the math when we apply Thevenin's Theorem and create an equivalent source. Once the keyboard is concluded, there will only be one, "800%" claim left: the Garmin Dakota. That's the last, rickety-ass leg of the stool that this charade rests upon.
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I am still blown away that someone with a Ph.D. would knowingly undermine their profession by supporting a false claim. Or unknowingly support a false claim. I don't know what is worse.
Shahriar,
That's what really has a bee in my bonnet. This guy is a tenured professor. We grant academics that type of security, freedom, and relative immunity on the basis of trust. If this is how they choose to use and abuse that trust, what is left?
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All the people up in arms here in this forum are engaging in a group hug to feel good about themselves.
No, it's just what we do on an engineering forum, we discuss the finer technical points of engineering, it excites us ;D
The average punter isn't going to read this forum even if it was linked to them. Just like the average punter isn't going to sit through one of my Batteriser videos, they's tune out in 10 seconds.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it though, it has great merit to those who want to know the details.
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When I was a kid I had a toy called Matchbox Scorpions. <...> You asked your parents for new batteries not when they were empty but when you got tired of the slow refueling stops and sore fingers.
(http://www.vectis.co.uk/AuctionImages/119/1601_l.jpg)
I predict the next video will feature a certain Mr. Chris Uken explaining that the batterizer will put an end to sore fingers. I wonder what kind of test setup they will use, maybe they can reuse the robot finger. :popcorn: ;)
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I agree with Dave's earlier comment... All this chatter does help us electronics nerds to learn about certain fundamental principles - I couldn't care less if this forum necessarily altered the number of sales of the Batteriser by the folks on IndieGogo. Most have already made up their minds. They need to educate themselves. As the proverbial saying goes "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". From a selfish personal point of view, I just like exercising my brain muscle here and getting a more firm intuitive grasp on electronics and engineering.
There are a few things that I feel (in the context of other massively disgusting IndieGogo scams - take "Airing" for example... https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/airing-the-first-hoseless-maskless-micro-cpap (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/airing-the-first-hoseless-maskless-micro-cpap)) make the Batteriser look like an Angel in comparison. Firstly, Batteriser *only* took in about $230,000 so far. Maybe they'll get up to $300,000, maybe $400,000. But not $1,000,000+ like Airing did. Secondly, the product is coming out in a few months.... There is a Fall 2015 Timeline Ship To Backers? - are they still on schedule? We will all get the product soon enough and be able to test it hands on! The "Airing" is not going to be available until mid-2017 and beyond... If it even gets developed (they have no prototype even). At least Batteriser has a prototype. Thirdly, the cost for the Batteriser is quite minimal. Seems like *most* backers for Batteriser are in at the $20-40 level... And they are getting them at about $2-3 a piece. Not bad, even if you want to hack the parts later and it is not a huge amount to lose on some total crap. The minimum "Airing" funding level for any product gets you into the $70-120 range at least.
Why am I comparing the two? Well, the "Airing" is a complete pile of nonsense that doesn't exist, fairy-tale land, with a team of people who are part of another defunct company take-over (with lawsuits also searchable in the U.S. legal files) and they took advantage of people with a medical condition to promise them a "Star Trek Fantasy" product.... And even after NUMEROUS INDIEGOGO COMPLAINTS nothing was ever done. They completed funding to 896% originally and now are "InDemand" and raising more.
So honestly, in the grand scheme of things, the Batteriser while it may be a complete pile of marketing B.S. and may only have a marginal benefit in certain situations, all-in-all the devastation it will cause on the poor unsuspecting backers is minimal. I feel like these Batteriser backers in a way are paying for my electronics education... because I've learned a lot from this entire fiasco. And the University professors and the University really, when it comes down to it, could use the cash more than anything it does to the so called "reputation". They are in it for the money. :popcorn:
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Understand and agree with you edy.
@mojo-chan said on May 08, 2015, 11:53:05 PM in the Projection watch on Indiegogo thread - "IGG should be investigated for fraud. They ignite stuff like this for profit."
I just wanted to repeat that statement here...
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Not that this should need to be done at this stage, but let's do it anyway.
Apple Wireless Keyboard
MC184LL/B
V % Notes
============
3.20 100
3.00 100
2.81 100
2.60 80
2.40 17
2.20 10 *Low bat warning
2.10 5
2.05 0 still fully functional
1.99 0 ceases function
% is the remaining battery life as reported by OSX. OS version 10.9.5.
Test was run with the dreaded, external power supply with voltage monitoring via an Agilent 34461A with a current calibration certificate. Voltage monitored directly at the negative terminal and approximately 12" from the positive terminal using 18 ga stranded wire to ensure minimal voltage drop. Conveniently, the resistance of the wire is 0.22 Ohms, which provides a Thevenin equivalent source. If you really need me to demonstrate the complete range of Thevenin equivalents, PM me. Happy to source some current shunts and oblige.
The maximum current draw was approximately 50mA during these tests. Average current draw during normal operation was about 5mA. That would make the voltage drop at the positive terminal approximately 1mV less during normal operation and about 10mV less during peak draw (device initialization). Neither voltage drop has a substantive impact on the results of these tests.
If you think I'm making this data up, contact me. I will be happy to demonstrate this test, live, in person. You come to me. We'll even drop by the Apple store and buy new devices in shrink wrap, so no one will think I'm gaming these tests somehow. We can have a local university host the trial if you like.
=========================================================
So, Bob, let's recap:
This is what you're advertising:
(http://www.batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/how_it_works01.jpg)(http://www.batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/how_it_works02.jpg)(http://www.batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/how_it_works03.jpg)(http://www.batteriser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/how_it_works04.jpg)
Most devices only tap into a fraction of your disposable battery’s energy – about 20%.
Batteriser uses micro-circuitry that lets you instantly tap into the 80% of energy that is usually thrown away.
And that is completely, utterly misleading and wrong. The Apple Wireless Keyboard drops out at 1.025V per cell. At that voltage, the energy remaining in the cell is NOT 80%. It is, in fact, approximately 8%. Your claim is off by an order of magnitude.
Care to start making some retractions, or are you going to wait for me to find a Garmin Dakota?
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What about we here at the EEVblog forums go together and make a long list of cut-off voltages for devices in our homes? If 20 people get 5 devices we already have a spreadsheet of 100 things! Taking a simple average we would have a definite answer what the cut-off voltage is of "most" devices. Just make/model and cut-off in V/cell?
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New video coming up, hold on to your hats folks!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMVitfhWoAApCSo.png:large)
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What about we here at the EEVblog forums go together and make a long list of cut-off voltages for devices in our homes? If 20 people get 5 devices we already have a spreadsheet of 100 things! Taking a simple average we would have a definite answer what the cut-off voltage is of "most" devices. Just make/model and cut-off in V/cell?
Not a bad idea.
Batteriser have already conceeded that it is 1.1V
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What about we here at the EEVblog forums go together and make a long list of cut-off voltages for devices in our homes? If 20 people get 5 devices we already have a spreadsheet of 100 things! Taking a simple average we would have a definite answer what the cut-off voltage is of "most" devices. Just make/model and cut-off in V/cell?
Not a bad idea.
Batteriser have already conceeded that it is 1.1V
Yes, but they are *still* claiming that 80% of a alkaline battery's energy remains below 1.1V. It's just monkey buggering mind boggling at this point.
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So, Bob, let's recap:
This is what you're advertising:
Most devices only tap into a fraction of your disposable battery’s energy – about 20%.
Batteriser uses micro-circuitry that lets you instantly tap into the 80% of energy that is usually thrown away.
And that is completely, utterly misleading and wrong. The Apple Wireless Keyboard drops out at 1.025V per cell. At that voltage, the energy remaining in the cell is NOT 80%. It is, in fact, approximately 8%. Your claim is off by an order of magnitude.
Care to start making some retractions, or are you going to wait for me to find a Garmin Dakota?
Well done. :clap:
I've added this to my Blog page updates.
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Yes, but they are *still* claiming that 80% of a alkaline battery's energy remains below 1.1V.
Quite true.
They have a total hotchpotch of claims now, it's complete folly.
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I have no knowledge of apple products but with all of the other deceptive claims is it at all possible that the video of the wireless keyboard was a fraud and that another tethered keyboard was used out of shot and the keyboard shown was not even relevant. I'm sure others will know if this is at all possible.
Muttley
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I have no knowledge of apple products but with all of the other deceptive claims is it at all possible that the video of the wireless keyboard was a fraud and that another tethered keyboard was used out of shot and the keyboard shown was not even relevant. I'm sure others will know if this is at all possible.
No, I believe the video is perfectly legitimate. The battery was low, you pop it in the batteriser and the battery gauge shoots back to 100%, exactly as you'd expect of a boost converter.
The video of course shows no evidence at all that the keyboard lasts 8x longer with the a batteriser, just that it worked for a bit when you popped the batteries back in with the batteriser, which is exactly what you'd expect.
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Yes I agree, provided they have an operational batteriser and if this was the case then they should provide a proper technical video showing valid data and stop monkeying about otherwise it's just more TV home shopping garbage on the way.
Muttley
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Have they disclosed the dropout voltage?
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Have they disclosed the dropout voltage?
Of the Batteriser? Yes, 0.6V or so. Trying of course to make you think there is something worthwhile to be had below 0.8V. Indeed, I recall them saying that they went to the trouble to develop their own ASIC because of the shelf stuff couldn't go low enough.
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What about we here at the EEVblog forums go together and make a long list of cut-off voltages for devices in our homes? If 20 people get 5 devices we already have a spreadsheet of 100 things! Taking a simple average we would have a definite answer what the cut-off voltage is of "most" devices. Just make/model and cut-off in V/cell?
Not a bad idea.
Batteriser have already conceeded that it is 1.1V
Yes, but they are *still* claiming that 80% of a alkaline battery's energy remains below 1.1V. It's just monkey buggering mind boggling at this point.
It's much more than 80%, you just need to pop it in the Mr Fusion, and E=mc^2. You do have a Mr Fusion, right?
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Just grabbed the first thing laying on my desk that uses batteries (2xAAA), a Microsoft Arc Touch Mouse. Battery indicator blinks red at 1.07 V/cell, but it works seemingly without issues to 0.99 V/cell - shuts off dead at 0.98 V/cell. At 1.6 V/cell it drew 20 mA, and 30 mA at 0.99 V/cell.
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They are now probably trying to find an old Apple wireless keyboard, the model with 3 batteries had some issues with cutting out early.
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I was looking around at the interesting side of this. I have never looked at the LTC3105 but a very interesting chip .25V startup is very impressive.
Anyway I wonder how much current they can deliver at the claimed dropout? If they have a real device, chip, whatever that can deliver the current then sell that. I guess if they did have such a thing then there would be no need for the batterizer.
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Can we start our own IndieGogo campaign "To create a world free from IndieGogo scams full of marketing BS" with the goal "Fund to debunk all the idiotic campaigns here". The cash could be used to buy devices for test (wireless keyboards / GPS devices) and to fund the making of the videos :)
McBryce.
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Can we start our own IndieGogo campaign "To create a world free from IndieGogo scams full of marketing BS" with the goal "Fund to debunk all the idiotic campaigns here". The cash could be used to buy devices for test (wireless keyboards / GPS devices) and to fund the making of the videos :)
McBryce.
:-+
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I am a bit tired of all this.
BAttestates very wrong things and are right know yelling to heavens, why the hell the engineering community jumps on them, while meanwhile there are at least 10 crowdsourcing campaigns going on with simliar if not worse statements.
I believe they deserve it :)
But cant we concentrate on something positive now, stuff that is brilliant and works well and additionally is brilliantly engineered, i would like that more, since we are never going to convince someone who backed some stupid campaigns in disbelieve, and the crowdfunding sites dont appeal to what is going on.
So its all by the old saying every day there is a dumb person staying up, you only have to find him and you will sell stuff, and only because the technical stuff is our domain, it doesnt mean we ourselves get fooled by carseller, vacacion sellers etc... its all circle :)
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I cannot understand how so many people backing this campaign can be so blind to the marketing bullshit.
...
Even my 21 year old daughter, who is by no means an EE or physics expert was saying to me – “That looks like bullshit to me Dad”… And that was without any bias or prompting from me. I simply sent her the URL and asked her if she thought it was a good concept.
This is exactly what she said:
“Good concept, but after googling it, some guy called Dave Jones has got some YT saying its bullshit.
I don’t understand exactly what he is doing or saying in some of his videos, but there is a forum site that has a load of people agreeing him.
The thing looks like a bullshit lie to me.”
see, you answered it yourself. Your daughter is clueless when it comes to EE, so she used heuristic of least resistance - wisdom of the crowd. Only difference between here and retards that backed this campaign is she used google and was lucky enough to stumble upon another crowd with a bit of clue. Most people stop when their own belief is confirmed, or search again ignoring conflicting information to avoid cognitive dissonance.
I just took a look at the "batteriser" site. Wow, just wow! A group of apparently successful, educated people running this! An awful lot of money has been spent on marketing and production "values." I wonder what kind of insurance they have, it's a class-action lawsuit waiting to happen.
crowdfunding haul is small fries, they are aiming at a buyout :) Google X maybe? :PPPP
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<snipped>
Only difference between here and retards that backed this campaign
"retards"? :--
yes, people slow in the head
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Anyway I wonder how much current they can deliver at the claimed dropout?
I've read that they claim 1A output current. Whether that's over the entire operating range though I don't know. You doubt it of course.
And of course they won't publish any data at all, let alone a full efficiency power curve.
These are EE professors, you think they'd be all ga-ga over the performance curves. So either they haven't measured them, or they have and they suck so won't show them.
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Oh no, I got a dislike, how ever will I survive!
http://youtu.be/yuaA-rUBmEc (http://youtu.be/yuaA-rUBmEc)
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So is anyone supporting the Indigogo campaign to check the product and measure the performance curves? I guess if Dave wants to buy it under his name, there might be some mysterious delays in deliver ::)
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These are EE professors, you think they'd be all ga-ga over the performance curves. So either they haven't measured them, or they have and they suck so won't show them.
I wanna know how hot that thing is going to get.
(even under, say, 100ma load...)
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I haven't read every article or post in relation to the product but has there been any mention so far in regards to reverse polarity protection and if so would this then incur a voltage drop by the implementation of such a feature ?, ie diodes or are there other means without sacrifice.
Muttley
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I haven't read every article or post in relation to the product but has there been any mention so far in regards to reverse polarity protection and if so would this then incur a voltage drop by the implementation of such a feature ?, ie diodes or are there other means without sacrifice.
I think it's physical - it just doesn't fit if you put it on backwards.
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I think it's physical - it just doesn't fit if you put it on backwards.
:-+
Ah yes, I have a raincoat with a similar feature but what if you have a number of batteries in parallel and you put one in back to front, this could be destructive and might be worth testing should we ever see these things.
Muttley
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I was looking around at the interesting side of this. I have never looked at the LTC3105 but a very interesting chip .25V startup is very impressive.
Anyway I wonder how much current they can deliver at the claimed dropout? If they have a real device, chip, whatever that can deliver the current then sell that. I guess if they did have such a thing then there would be no need for the batterizer.
The LTC3105 can startup at such a low voltage but from the first page of the datasheet doesn't look like it's designed to supply more than ~100mA and is usually down in the tens of mA; the amount of current also decreases with supply voltage.
TPS61200 is closer to this application, 0.5V startup and few hundred mA up to 1.4A output, but also decreases in current as voltage decreases. Highest efficiency of ~90% is achieved at 100mA output current, and drops sharply after that.
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If you set up your experiment just right, you can prove anything. You can see by the patent that a low voltage of 1.39 was used as a cutoff, which has plenty of current driving potential that you could easily boost it and keep drawing from it and achieve over 50 mA for a long time after. This is what Dave called "moving your goalposts".
Patent and figure 7 shown below:
FIG. 7 shows measurements that illustrate the advantages of the various embodiments. Three popular AA battery brands, Panasonic, Duracell and Sony were chosen for the measurements. Active load circuitry that drew a fixed 50 mA current was placed at the output of these batteries and the voltage of each battery was measured over time. The horizontal access shows time and the vertical access shows the battery voltage. The starting voltage for these fresh batteries was 1.6V. The amount of time it takes for the batteries to reach 1.39V, which is where a lot of electronic equipment stop operating, are listed. The Panasonic battery took 6.3 hours to reach that level, while it took 4.5 hours for the Sony battery. The Panasonic battery when used in conjunction with a regulator, according to embodiments of the invention, took 27.9 hours before it stopped providing 1.5V, and the Sony battery when used with a regulator took 32 hours before its stopped providing 1.5V. Thus, with the regulator, it takes 4.5 to 7 times longer before the battery needs to be replaced. Thus, the total number of batteries that need to be manufactured and consequently discarded would be reduced by 4 to 7 times. This would have a significant impact on our planet if one takes into account the carbon footprint for extracting all the battery material, their manufacturing, their transportation to stores, their packaging as well as all of the toxic material that end up in our landfills.
Can someone please explain the figure. It seems to make no sense and does not match up to the numbers they provided in the description. :-//
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So this whole Batteriser concept got launched based on a completely errant assumption that a 1.5V battery is useless to consumer electronics below 1.39V?
Either:
1) This is pretty sad for a set of experienced engineers to believe that end product manufacturers would design their equipment so mismatched to a power source's discharge curve.
2) They are completely scamming people.
Which would you rather have: smart, unethical people, or dumb professors? Quite a dilemma...
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My money is on this being an intentional scam.
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So this whole Batteriser concept got launched based on a completely errant assumption [...]
Which would you rather have: smart, unethical people, or dumb professors? Quite a dilemma...
I think marketing people came into the mix somewhere along the line and they made the engineers say "mehh ... it kinda sorta works". I remember Dave has made a mention in one of his vlogs about how a product just works fine for a given goal, but then marketing comes in and thinks up all kinds of fantastic new ways to utilize it which just don't work. Unfortunately I can't recall what the subject was about.
The Dyson vlog http://www.eevblog.com/2010/12/13/eevblog-132-delusional-dyson-marketing/ (http://www.eevblog.com/2010/12/13/eevblog-132-delusional-dyson-marketing/) is not the one I was thinking about, but it is about a similar mechanism with marketing.
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As a pragmatist, I too think there could be some truth in the theory that the engineers came up with a working device that could be useful in certain applications, but then the marketeers got hold of it.
Engineers: "This device will keep an old incandescent torch (flashlight) nice and bright for longer before you need to change the batteries".
Marketeers: "That doesn't sound much of a sales pitch. How about REVOLUTIONARY NEW INVENTIONS INCREASES BATTERY LIFE BY 800%!"
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Probably the simplest counter-argument against Baterizer would be if you demonstrated how adding the battery's 100-300 mOhms of resistance to the output of the power supply makes no difference when measuring voltage at the product's battery terminals. That would be apples-to-apples in terms of comparing the two, even helping to account for transient load issues, although I doubt you would see any difference in reality. Sometimes you have to make the argument such that even a monkey clapping cymbals could understand.
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Dave, you should get hold of the SAME toy, the annoying Monkey thing, and do the test properly, with the DMM connected at the battery terminals in the monkey's ass and using similar flat batteries as in their video. Showing that the battery voltage under load drops.
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this thread become boring for me, so I play with monkey. have a monkey avatar anyone.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=165272;image)
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NICE MONKEY!!! :-DD
I still can't for the life of me understand Figure 7 from their patent.
The "Regulated" curves start off at 1.8 V and remain there and suddenly drop to 0 V.
The "Unregulated" curves start at 1.6 V and continue more like regular battery depletion curves.
1. Where did they get the numbers?
2. What does the description for Figure 7 and the actual diagram have to do with each other?
3. What do those multipliers mean?
:-// :-// :-//
Can anyone make sense of what this means? It almost looks like the Regulated curves are worse. And why show 1.6 and 1.8 V starting points? Since when is this a regular operating voltage for devices per cell?
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The quickest way to point out the fallacy in Batterizer's 'method' of measuring battery cutoff voltage is to note that, for a given product, every battery you try it with will give you a slightly different answer. Dave, be more concise! ;)
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I would love to know when that graph was done as I posted a while back in another thread about a Canon camera dropout at 1.42 volt per cell and new Energizer Ultimate Lithium batteries with an unloaded voltage of 1.80 volt (non rechargeables), it may be related and perhaps they can read and whats with the vertical and horizontal access in the patent, yes it reads access and not axis.
Muttley
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I would love to know when that graph was done as I posted a while back in another thread about a Canon camera dropout at 1.42 volt per cell and new Energizer Ultimate Lithium batteries with an unloaded voltage of 1.80 volt (non rechargeables), it may be related and perhaps they can read and whats with the vertical and horizontal access in the patent, yes it reads access and not axis.
Muttley
Well they are assuming a "load" of 50 mA in the patent as well. Since when do toys and cameras and most devices run on such a small current? Of course if you call 1.39 V threshold an "unusable" voltage, and then boost it back up to 1.5 V and keep measuring until your current drops below 50 mA you will last a long long time after your "so called dead" battery has run out.
Their definition of a useless battery (one below 1.39 V) and then assuming a paltry 50 mA "load" is how they can say they extend the battery so much further. It's the way they DEFINED things wrongly to begin with.
....And I still don't understand their graph. Surely someone must be able to explain it. Can we ask Batteriser to explain the graph in their patent?
AND I JUST NOTICED they did say "access" in their patent (not "axis"). Wow? :wtf:
@TheElectricChicken... I propose a new emoticon to be added to the EEVBlog forums, it should be a cymbal monkey bent over with an oscilloscope probe up it's arse. Can you make one like that? :-DD
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Wouldn't the "bursty" devices that use high current when starting and then low average current benefit more from a capacitor and not a boost converter? For example, my portable tape player uses ~150mA (from a single cell) when playing, but changing modes (starting, stopping, reversing) requires 320mA or more for a second or so. If a battery is marginal and can only provide voltage above cutoff at 150mA then adding a capacitor would work better.
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In the interest of completeness, and since I still see an Apple Magic Trackpad shown on the Batteriser website as a device that stands to benefit, I am providing the testing data for this as well. The test setup is identical to that of the Apple Wireless Keyboard I posted earlier. The short answer is that the minimum device operating voltage is 0.95V per cell, and the cutout voltage is 0.925V per cell. The same caveats of voltage drop at the terminals as before apply. In short, the currents and ESR involved are low enough to be largely irrelevant to the result.
In the end, the Magic Trackpad is even more efficient a battery consumer than the Apple Wireless Keyboard and leaves less than 5% of the battery's energy remaining when the device is run to the point it ceases function.
V % Notes
============
3.2 100
3.1 100
3.0 100
2.9 93
2.8 84
2.7 76
2.6 58
2.5 42
2.4 ----- no measurement taken
2.3 17
2.2 13
2.1 0
2.0 0
1.9 0 min startup voltage
1.85 0 Device ceases function
At this point, I feel that Batteroo and it's advisors, particularly one Dr. Kiumars Parvin, Professor of Physics at San Jose State University, need to demonstrate publicly how they have come to the conclusion that these devices leave 80% of the battery's energy left untapped, and that a boost converter can release it. I am using what I feel are reasonable methods that are backed by standard calculations, and I am completely unable to reproduce Batteroo's results.
My offer to reproduce these tests before an audience of qualified observers stands. You come to me. I only ask for reasonable time accommodations.
====================================
BTW, Dr. Parvin has a impressive CV and has authored nearly two dozen peer-reviewed publications:
http://www.sjsu.edu/people/kiumars.parvin/ (http://www.sjsu.edu/people/kiumars.parvin/)
http://www.sjsu.edu/people/kiumars.parvin/CURRICULUM%20VITAE.pdf (http://www.sjsu.edu/people/kiumars.parvin/CURRICULUM%20VITAE.pdf)
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this thread become boring for me, so I play with monkey.
Jeez, that was more information than I wanted.
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@TheElectricChicken... I propose a new emoticon to be added to the EEVBlog forums, it should be a cymbal monkey bent over with an oscilloscope probe up it's arse. Can you make one like that? :-DD
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=165280;image)
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In the interest of completeness, and since I still see an Apple Magic Trackpad shown on the Batteriser website as a device that stands to benefit, I am providing the testing data for this as well. The test setup is identical to that of the Apple Wireless Keyboard I posted earlier. The short answer is that the minimum device operating voltage is 0.95V per cell, and the cutout voltage is 0.925V per cell. The same caveats of voltage drop at the terminals as before apply. In short, the currents and ESR involved are low enough to be largely irrelevant to the result.
In the end, the Magic Trackpad is even more efficient a battery consumer than the Apple Wireless Keyboard and leaves less than 5% of the battery's energy remaining when the device is run to the point it ceases function.
V % Notes
============
3.2 100
3.1 100
3.0 100
2.9 93
2.8 84
2.7 76
2.6 58
2.5 42
2.4 ----- no measurement taken
2.3 17
2.2 13
2.1 0
2.0 0
1.9 0 min startup voltage
1.85 0 Device ceases function
At this point, I feel that Batteroo and it's advisors, particularly one Dr. Kiumars Parvin, Professor of Physics at San Jose State University, need to demonstrate publicly how they have come to the conclusion that these devices leave 80% of the battery's energy left untapped, and that a boost converter can release it. I am using what I feel are reasonable methods that are backed by standard calculations, and I am completely unable to reproduce Batteroo's results.
My offer to reproduce these tests before an audience of qualified observers stands. You come to me. I only ask for reasonable time accommodations.
====================================
BTW, Dr. Parvin has a impressive CV and has authored nearly two dozen peer-reviewed publications:
http://www.sjsu.edu/people/kiumars.parvin/ (http://www.sjsu.edu/people/kiumars.parvin/)
http://www.sjsu.edu/people/kiumars.parvin/CURRICULUM%20VITAE.pdf (http://www.sjsu.edu/people/kiumars.parvin/CURRICULUM%20VITAE.pdf)
All of this publications seem to be in physics. I don't see anything in electronics.
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Jeez, that was more information than I wanted.
now you can play with monkey too. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=165280;image)
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I just emailed Dr. Kiumars Parvin asking if he still stood by his quote in PCWorld and if he could explain which test he performed along with what battery cut-off voltage he used at which discharge rate.
Would be fun to get an answer!
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slower version, you choose or suggest.
Image of monkey copyright unless artist says otherwise, my part is PD, waveform I steal from the internet, but doesn't matter because too simple, it just describe sinewave.
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@TheElectricChicken
:-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD
That's the funniest thing I've seen in a long time! Great work!
Every time there is some shady product or claim, this will be the "meme" that represents it! It will go viral! "Shove a probe up a monkey's arse!" has a good ring to it. :-DD
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All of his publications seem to be in physics. I don't see anything in electronics.
Quite true. I'm operating on the assumption that setting up a simple laboratory experiment should be a skill that a working physicist should be qualified to handle. His ability to draw correct conclusions may be limited by his experience. But, for him to make such a statement, I would *hope* that physical testing was performed and that he could share the protocols and results.
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All of his publications seem to be in physics. I don't see anything in electronics.
Quite true. I'm operating on the assumption that setting up a simple laboratory experiment should be a skill that a working physicist should be qualified to handle. His ability to draw correct conclusions may be limited by his experience. But, for him to make such a statement, I would *hope* that physical testing was performed and that he could share the protocols and results.
I wholeheartedly agree. Anyone with a Ph.D. should understand the scientific method and if something is outside of their expertise they should abstain from commenting.
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@TheElectricChicken
That's the funniest thing I've seen in a long time! Great work!
thank you.
We do need permission of David L. Jones who drew the monkey I think, and possibly someone can take pics of their scope and upload it so I can make one that is pure PD or CC license, but I think nobody cares. I am very glad I can help you get a second laugh from David's funny monkey.
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All of his publications seem to be in physics. I don't see anything in electronics.
Quite true.
Yep. Only a physicist would build a huge screen-poking machine to test the GPS instead of looking in the menu for a 'stay awake' mode.
Definitely not an EE.
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All of his publications seem to be in physics. I don't see anything in electronics.
Quite true.
Yep. Only a physicist would build a huge screen-poking machine to test the GPS instead of looking in the menu for a 'stay awake' mode.
Definitely not an EE.
Yeah, but maybe this is part of the "trick". When waking up the GPS, it draws a pulse current. If there is a flaw in the battery voltage monitoring (hardware or software), it will show an premature "low bat warning" (i.e. when it measures the voltage on the huge current spike). Any good designed device will NOT benefit from batteriser, since it can deplete any battery down to its fully discharged level.
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Time to do some experimenting. Not too complicated if you can open the poor monkey and solder two wires with that unused Weller shown on the video.
Just open the monkey, solder two wires to the battery terminals inside the monkey in order to be able to measure the actual battery voltage when the monkey is being used. Hook the wires to the multimeter so that you can see the battery voltage at every instant.
Then perform these two tests:
1. Using the power supply measuring the cut-off voltage just like in the Batteriser's video
a. Dial 3V to the power supply.
b. Turn off the monkey.
c. Connect the external power supply to the monkey's battery terminals.
d. Record the voltage on the multimeter. Should be the same as the power supply ie. 3V
e. Turn on the monkey.
f. Record the voltage on the multimeter. Should be still the same as the power supply ie. 3V
g. Reduce the voltage until the monkey goes zombie.
h. Record the voltage on the multimeter. You have just measured the cut-off voltage (approx 1V).
2. Using the used batteries, just like in the Batteriser's video
a. Measure the battery voltages. Should be around 1.2V each, so the combined voltage is around 2.4V.
b. Turn off the monkey.
c. Insert the two used batteries into monkey.
d. Record the battery voltage on the multimeter. Should be around 2.4V.
e. Turn on the monkey.
f. Record the voltage on the multimeter. The monkey may not be moving as the batteries are used. The loaded battery voltage may be less than 1V.
g. Turn off the monkey.
f. Record the voltage on the multimeter. Should be around 2.4V as the batteries are not loaded any more.
g. Think hard. Magic? No.
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And the Batteriser saga takes a turn for the utterly surreal. This was just posted on their YouTube page:
Pls stand by we are in a process of releasing a video with the technical explanation for all engineers on how Batteriser works, while at first glance, it seems implausible, I am sure that real genuine engineers will appreciate our whiteboard technical discussions along with simulation, data matching battery companies spec sheets, in conjunction with device data. Of course, those whose revenue will be reduced by our technology will do everything to divert attention
"real genuine engineer" - This is a joke, right?! Exactly who grants such a degree? What is the accrediting institution?
Nobody said that a boost converter is implausible. We're telling you that the battery management technology in today's electronic devices is already very good at extracting energy from batteries.
I'm telling you that I have tested the devices that you have selected as leaving 80% of the available energy while reporting a dead battery. And I'm finding out that these devices, are in fact, using 90 to 95% of the available energy in the battery. Your claims regarding Apple's wireless trackpad and keypad do not match the data that I have obtained using standard practices.
Your device cannot work as claimed on the Apple trackpad and keypad because there is not enough energy in the battery once the battery reaches the device's cutoff voltage. I need not know anything about your device's internals or topology to come to that conclusion.
It is time for you to start retracting your claims.
-
Sigh...
Bob Roohparvar
2 hours ago
@csmurp 77
we agree with you that voltage under load would be different from no load condition, which was the whole point of the Monkey video to demonstrate that batteries are different than power supplies. The use of a bench power supply (with no current limit setting) to determine device cut off voltage is inaccurate. Prior to our video release, the most important battery parameter, its Internal Resistance , was being ignored.
Pls stay tuned for our next video explaining technical details.
So Bob, what current limit would you like me to use? Do tell.
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Just found my really cheap (actually free ^^) radio controlled clock / weather station already starts to get really dim at 1.29V per cell... :-- Guess it's time to order a pair of Batterisers :-DD
And yes, measured in device under load ;)
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Just thinking, I wonder if the purpose of this whole exercise (the batterizer guys) was to fund a company? I'm not thinking with Indiegogo but using some other types of investors and this is all just an advertising campaign to get other investors.
If this is the case then hopefully this will put a bit of a "monkey wrench" in the plan and slow them down.
Anyway I do like to see people saying "prove it". This is a great thread.
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The external power supply with the output voltage set to 2.5V, connected in series with a 4 ohm resistor models the two used batteries quite well according to the video: the operating current was around 400mA at 2.5V and the monkey stopped moving at 0.9V. This series resistance is used to model the batteries' internal resistance. Reducing the resistance from 4 ohm to 0.5 ohm models the fresh batteries quite well. As the batteries get discharged, the internal resistance increases gradually from 0.5 ohm to 4 ohm and more. So, you can use a power supply to model batteries after all.
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Wait! We got it all wrong! :scared: I think I know how the Batteriser works!
So you know how all these devices can work even when each battery is down to only 1.1 V? Well we are "wasting" all that extra voltage by using brand new 1.5 V batteries in our devices! How much? Well 0.4 V of extra "energy" is in each battery that is not even needed because the device will happily continue functioning even on 1.1 V per cell.
:-DD
So the Batteriser "throttles down" the voltage on the battery and therefore extends it's life... It lowers the voltage from 1.5 V per cell to what the device needs to just barely stay on (say 1.1 V) and that "extra" 0.4 V that it saves can then be recovered and used later on to drastically extend the life of the battery. :clap: Yes! I think that is the magic behind it!
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Another datapoint for you all. Chinese manufactured DCF77 clock and remote weather station:
Main Unit 2 x AA cells measured at 3,32V before test (under load)
At 2,2V reception of remote unit failed
At 2,19V reception of DCF77 Time Signal dropped out
At 2,11V screen died
Remote Unit 2 x AAA cells measured at 3,21V before test (under load)
At 2,5V Bluetooth transmitter stopped
At 1,86V display died
So, I have a desk unit that will work down to 1,1V per cell and an outside remote that works to 1,25V per cell (the bluetooth transmitter probably drags it down). Not bad for an old set of batteries.
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Wait! We got it all wrong! :scared: I think I know how the Batteriser works!
So you know how all these devices can work even when each battery is down to only 1.1 V? Well we are "wasting" all that extra voltage by using brand new 1.5 V batteries in our devices! How much? Well 0.4 V of extra "energy" is in each battery that is not even needed because the device will happily continue functioning even on 1.1 V per cell.
:-DD
So the Batteriser "throttles down" the voltage on the battery and therefore extends it's life... It lowers the voltage from 1.5 V per cell to what the device needs to just barely stay on (say 1.1 V) and that "extra" 0.4 V that it saves can then be recovered and used later on to drastically extend the life of the battery. :clap: Yes! I think that is the magic behind it!
Buck-boost converters work just like that. They can produce constant output voltage even if the battery voltage drops or increases.
Modern electrical devices typically operate as constant power mode, which means in practice that if the battery voltage increases the current consumption will be reduced - and if the battery voltage drops the current consumption increases. Using a buck-boost-gimmick wouldn't produce any real advantage here.
For a device using an electric motor, there will be some advantage though. When the battery voltage increases, the current will increase too. And reducing the battery voltage will reduce the current as well. But reducing the battery voltage will make the motor veryy slooooowwww...
This video "Flash light test with The Batteriser" gives a hint that the output voltage will stay constant as the actual battery gets discharged, so there is boost-regulator inside.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-5RLfvy8XI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-5RLfvy8XI)
As the actual battery voltage drops the current drawn by the boost-regulator needs to increase in order to keep the output voltage constant. Funny enough, this will discharge the battery a bit faster as the discharge current increases.
Please read Jay_Diddy_B's thorough analysis and excellent simulation on what this means in practice:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/modeling-an-alkaline-battery-in-ltspice/msg731360/#msg731360 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/modeling-an-alkaline-battery-in-ltspice/msg731360/#msg731360)
As the battery discharge curves show there is very little energy left after the battery voltage has reached the 0.9V cut-off voltage. This means there is hardly any energy left in the actual battery. If there is no energy left, even the Batteriser cannot do any magic tricks here.
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So, you can use a power supply to model batteries after all.
That wasn't the point. The point was to measure the product battery cutoff voltage. And for this it doesn't matter if you use a battery and wait until the terminal voltage drops low enough and the monkey stops moving, or if you lower the voltage of a power supply.
Modelling a battery with a power supply and a resistor might work, but I think this needs to be proven. I guess a battery is not exactly as linear as a resistor with low and high currents, and complex loads like the monkey might make it more complicated. But if there is still a current flowing when the motor stops moving, the cutoff voltage would be the same. Otherwise it could oscillate a bit (motor stops, no current flows, battery recovers a bit, motor starts again). But nevertheless you can always say at which voltage the device stops operating. But you might need an oscilloscope (not measuring the test square wave output) to do it right for complex loads.
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Just found my really cheap (actually free ^^) radio controlled clock / weather station already starts to get really dim at 1.29V per cell... :-- Guess it's time to order a pair of Batterisers :-DD
And yes, measured in device under load ;)
We found one device that will actually benefit from the batteriser!
Of course, if you fit them when you're replacing the batteries, the inefficiency will probably result in them running the cells down just as fast anyway.
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Hi group,
I have presented a fairly detailed analysis, using LTspice, of the combination of Alkaline batteries and a battery_booster in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/modeling-an-alkaline-battery-in-ltspice/msg731360/#msg731360 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/modeling-an-alkaline-battery-in-ltspice/msg731360/#msg731360)
Enjoy !!
Regards,
Jay_Diddy_B
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How many of the users here have backed Batteriser on their indiegogo just to get your hands on some of these? Do we have any recourse if they don't ship? I don't want to give them money!
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Hi group,
I have presented a fairly detailed analysis, using LTspice, of the combination of Alkaline batteries and a battery_booster in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/modeling-an-alkaline-battery-in-ltspice/msg731360/#msg731360 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/modeling-an-alkaline-battery-in-ltspice/msg731360/#msg731360)
Enjoy !!
Regards,
Jay_Diddy_B
You have made great job! :-+ :-+ :-+
Coincidentally I just wrote in my post above, before I read your electronic game simulation:
As the actual battery voltage drops the current drawn by the boost-regulator needs to increase in order to keep the output voltage constant. Funny enough, this will discharge the battery a bit faster as the discharge current increases.
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How many of the users here have backed Batteriser on their indiegogo just to get your hands on some of these? Do we have any recourse if they don't ship? I don't want to give them money!
I haven't and I believe every product deserves to live or die in the free marketplace.
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How many of the users here have backed Batteriser on their indiegogo just to get your hands on some of these? Do we have any recourse if they don't ship? I don't want to give them money!
I haven't and I believe every product deserves to live or die in the free marketplace.
I think that is what's happening.
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(snip) ... I believe every product deserves to live or die in the free marketplace.
Placebo works:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb_6PPBJJB8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb_6PPBJJB8)
But in this case the placebo-effect may not keep your monkey running longer, though. So it may be a hoax or a scam. ;)
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Good work, making it clear that the batteriser is utter crap. One more thought, however:
Quite some loads do not draw a constant current or have a constant resistance over time,
but instead they need more current to start off than they need to operate continuously
(e.g, DC/DC-converters, motors, ...). This means that a battery with an increased internal
resistance due to ageing will not be able to start off some loads that run OK from a
DC lab power supply with zero internal resistance. Thats very plausible. The ridiculous
thing is now that the batteriser makes things worse than better; a load (motor, converter, ...)
that could marginally start from a battery will not even have then chance to start with
the batteriser, because if needs even more power from the battery than the original load
(efficiency is never 100%) and the drop due internal battery resistance will be even higher.
The batteriser people are just crooks trying to extract money from uneducated users.
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One interesting aspect to this entire campaign is the production side. Does anyone know if it is feasible on the scale of the number of Batterisers being produced that they can get the costs so low? I assume the components are cheap, but assembly, creating all the tools for a production line, etc... Fascinating to see that in progress and whether it can be done for the $300k-400k I assume they will get funded, and still turn a profit. Unless they are expecting some venture capitalists to throw in some money for a cut as well.
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Hi,
The device would be more useful for higher current applications. At low currents the quiescent current of the Battery_booster' may draw more current than the load.
At higher currents, I am not sure if the boost regulator will fit into the available space.
Jay_Diddy_B
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Jeez, that was more information than I wanted.
now you can play with monkey too. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=165280;image)
Do I see a T shirt campaign coming?
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Dave seemed interested in just how they have packed it all in such a difficult form factor, so perhaps he will do a teardown in due course and answer some of these questions.
I'm guessing it will be very similar in design to these which were available 3 years ago:
http://www.radiolocman.com/news/new.html?di=135250 (http://www.radiolocman.com/news/new.html?di=135250)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8426/7732475698_1283e93f0c.jpg)
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...of course Batteroo have nothing to lose if they pocket the funding and create nothing.
They can blame the negative publicity for the demise of the product before it ever appears, white-anting their market opportunities. The 'legal' fees absorbed any funds left over from the 'development' and video production.
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http://www.radiolocman.com/news/new.html?di=135250 (http://www.radiolocman.com/news/new.html?di=135250)
Texas Instruments introduces ultra-small boost power module for smartphones and tablets
(http://www.rlocman.ru/i/Image/2012/07/19/tps81256.jpg)
why do I suddenly want to sprinkle these on breakfast cereal to get a boost all day long...
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Everyone needs an "Energy Boost" sometimes!
http://www.jambajuice.com/menu-and-nutrition/menu/boosts/boosts/energy-boost (http://www.jambajuice.com/menu-and-nutrition/menu/boosts/boosts/energy-boost)
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I'm telling you that I have tested the devices that you have selected as leaving 80% of the available energy while reporting a dead battery. And I'm finding out that these devices, are in fact, using 90 to 95% of the available energy in the battery. Your claims regarding Apple's wireless trackpad and keypad do not match the data that I have obtained using standard practices.
Your device cannot work as claimed on the Apple trackpad and keypad because there is not enough energy in the battery once the battery reaches the device's cutoff voltage.
Anybody with Apple contacts? This is clearly a defamation and Apple could pursue legal action for portraying their devices as 'wasteful'.
-
Unfortunately the same could be said in relation to particular vehicle types and no doubt a truck load of other things, in any case it's probably best that they are left with some money in the bank for product liability insurance and it wouldn't surprise me if certain product manufacturers included a warning or disclaimer advising against the use of the Batteriser in their products.
I'm no professor but I've never known a battery to exceed it's rated output voltage, can the same be said for this thing which is yet to prove itself and it's regulation circuitry must be absolutely guaranteed not to cause or inflict damage on consumer products.
Devices such as this need to be properly proven as expert proof before they can be safely deemed as foolproof, your average joe doesn't know any better and wont until his gadget is destroyed.
Muttley
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Everyone needs an "Energy Boost" sometimes!
http://www.jambajuice.com/menu-and-nutrition/menu/boosts/boosts/energy-boost (http://www.jambajuice.com/menu-and-nutrition/menu/boosts/boosts/energy-boost)
Blah. It's like real fruit, but totally ruined. Yum :P
not exactly sports candy when there are all those chemicals.
(http://www.banderasnews.com/1211/images/sportcandy.jpg)
real fruit for real people.
Battery cells for electric chickens.
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@TheElectricChicken... I propose a new emoticon to be added to the EEVBlog forums, it should be a cymbal monkey bent over with an oscilloscope probe up it's arse. Can you make one like that? :-DD
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=165280;image)
This is not quite right.... :palm:
We were trying to educate them on probe compensation not probing constipation..... :-DD
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Good work, making it clear that the batteriser is utter crap. One more thought, however:
Quite some loads do not draw a constant current or have a constant resistance over time,
but instead they need more current to start off than they need to operate continuously
(e.g, DC/DC-converters, motors, ...). This means that a battery with an increased internal
resistance due to ageing will not be able to start off some loads that run OK from a
DC lab power supply with zero internal resistance. Thats very plausible. The ridiculous
thing is now that the batteriser makes things worse than better; a load (motor, converter, ...)
that could marginally start from a battery will not even have then chance to start with
the batteriser, because if needs even more power from the battery than the original load
(efficiency is never 100%) and the drop due internal battery resistance will be even higher.
Yes, solid point, it could make an otherwise still usable battery in the product actually no longer usable. The reverse of what is intended.
-
We do need permission of David L. Jones who drew the monkey I think
Probes the monkey (that's his name) is hereby public domain.
-
Thank you David, my work is public domain and nobody owns the sine wave shape (even though I pinched it) so it's PD free for all :D
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And the Batteriser saga takes a turn for the utterly surreal. This was just posted on their YouTube page:
Pls stand by we are in a process of releasing a video with the technical explanation for all engineers on how Batteriser works, while at first glance, it seems implausible, I am sure that real genuine engineers will appreciate our whiteboard technical discussions along with simulation, data matching battery companies spec sheets, in conjunction with device data. Of course, those whose revenue will be reduced by our technology will do everything to divert attention
[/quote]
Utterly surreal all right.
What's to bet what they say will be essentially 100% correct, but completely beside the point and won't answer a thing.
I suspect they are doing this video not to appease the critics, but more to appease their financial backers and current and future investors (who almost certainly aren't technical, like the former CEO of K-Mart).
They do not have a single credible electronics design engineer who will back their claims, not a single one. It's sad.
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It reminds me of those pest buster things that they plug into the wall and claim they keep the bugs away from your house. Universities studied them and say not only do they not repel or kill anything at all, but that the warmth from the additional power consumption created a lovely place that the cockroaches preferred to live, to take advantage of the warmth. I remember they were debunked years ago, and yet they sell them at woolies today.
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It reminds me of those pest buster things that they plug into the wall and claim they keep the bugs away from your house. Universities studied them and say not only do they not repel or kill anything at all, but that the warmth from the additional power consumption created a lovely place that the cockroaches preferred to live, to take advantage of the warmth. I remember they were debunked years ago, and yet they sell them at woolies today.
Yes, and what about the "Anti-corrosion electronic modules" that connect to your car battery and claim to reduce rust on your car. The same crap they sold in 1970... 1980.... 1990.... 2000.... 2010. Well guess what, my dealership just tried to sell me the same B.S. device (although more up to date with a bunch of microprocessors in it, no less!) just a few months ago! And they are available in stores, no questions asked. Where are consumer protection laws?
Let's face it, this is something that nobody can successfully fight. It is just an ugly part of free world economics and business, and general lack of public electronics education (or at the very least some healthy skepticism to push people to learn and not trust everything they are told by salespeople).
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Yes, and what about the "Anti-corrosion electronic modules" that connect to your car battery and claim to reduce rust on your car.
LOL, some mistakes are built to last. I would think that just using a wire connected to the anti-static strap that hangs down from the car would be as good as it gets when it comes to sacrificial anodes which are used on boats and pipes and hot water tanks at your house to good effect.
Still, nothing can beat using stainless steel body panels in the first place, then after 30 years there IS NO rust https://www.google.com.au/search?q=delorean&tbm=isch (https://www.google.com.au/search?q=delorean&tbm=isch)
There are not even anti-lemon laws or a bill of rights in australia.
To keep on-topic I predict that capitalism will allow the batteriser to last 10 times longer than your regular scam item. ;D
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I don't know if this is going to be their new video, it's only on their Vimeo account, the independent Batteriser Batteroo Youtube fan page :-DD didn't upload it so far:
https://vimeo.com/135935197
Looks plausible, if the Garmin GPS has a really high battery cutoff voltage. They carefully avoid to mention this voltage in the video.
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I am tempted to run down a pair of actual batteries, while logging the voltage all the way. That will have to wait until the weekend though.
Can't you do it this evening ? It will just take you 2 hours :-DD
Oh, right. My bad ;D
On the serious side, I am currently running down a pair of NiMH cells in my Garmin eMap, logging the voltage with my new 34465A. Then we'll see if that result matches what I found using a lab supply, or not. I am pretty confident that I already know the answer to that one (and so do all of you), but nothing beats hard evidence.
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I don't know if this is going to be their new video, it's only on their Vimeo account, the independent Batteriser Batteroo Youtube fan page :-DD didn't upload it so far:
https://vimeo.com/135935197 (https://vimeo.com/135935197)
Looks plausible, if the Garmin GPS has a really high battery cutoff voltage. They carefully avoid to mention this voltage in the video.
Already been discussed here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg727261/#msg727261 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg727261/#msg727261)
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btw. what means batteroo? Sounds like battery waterloo to me :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Waterloo
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We do need permission of David L. Jones who drew the monkey I think
Probes the monkey (that's his name) is hereby public domain.
T-Shirt with a high quality vector graphic version of it done, buy it here: http://teespring.com/probes-the-monkey (http://teespring.com/probes-the-monkey)
(http://i.imgur.com/fRiFjJA.jpg)
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And the Batteriser saga takes a turn for the utterly surreal. This was just posted on their YouTube page:
Pls stand by we are in a process of releasing a video with the technical explanation for all engineers on how Batteriser works, while at first glance, it seems implausible, I am sure that real genuine engineers will appreciate our whiteboard technical discussions along with simulation, data matching battery companies spec sheets, in conjunction with device data. Of course, those whose revenue will be reduced by our technology will do everything to divert attention
Utterly surreal all right.
What's to bet what they say will be essentially 100% correct, but completely beside the point and won't answer a thing.
I suspect they are doing this video not to appease the critics, but more to appease their financial backers and current and future investors (who almost certainly aren't technical, like the former CEO of K-Mart).
They do not have a single credible electronics design engineer who will back their claims, not a single one. It's sad.
[/quote]
Exactly. I firmly believe at this point that the emails and phone calls are flying. Right now is pretty much the drop dead date for holiday 2015 orders - which is not when you want everyone asking questions. And investors will make phone calls. I periodically get "WTF are these people doing with my money?!" calls. So it's full tilt crisis mode at Batteroo.
-
btw. what means batteroo? Sounds like battery waterloo to me :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Waterloo
Hey, that happened 50 km from where I live.
-
And the Batteriser saga takes a turn for the utterly surreal. This was just posted on their YouTube page:
Pls stand by we are in a process of releasing a video with the technical explanation for all engineers on how Batteriser works, while at first glance, it seems implausible, I am sure that real genuine engineers will appreciate our whiteboard technical discussions along with simulation, data matching battery companies spec sheets, in conjunction with device data. Of course, those whose revenue will be reduced by our technology will do everything to divert attention
Utterly surreal all right.
What's to bet what they say will be essentially 100% correct, but completely beside the point and won't answer a thing.
I suspect they are doing this video not to appease the critics, but more to appease their financial backers and current and future investors (who almost certainly aren't technical, like the former CEO of K-Mart).
They do not have a single credible electronics design engineer who will back their claims, not a single one. It's sad.
Exactly. I firmly believe at this point that the emails and phone calls are flying. Right now is pretty much the drop dead date for holiday 2015 orders - which is not when you want everyone asking questions. And investors will make phone calls. I periodically get "WTF are these people doing with my money?!" calls. So it's full tilt crisis mode at Batteroo.
[/quote]
Living in Kalifornia I am not as shocked as others here might be at this whole soap opera.
Being a minority (someone with more than three brain cells to rub together) in the land of Fruits and Nuts seeing the ridiculous is an hourly occurrence. This is rather tame in comparison.
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@FrankBuss: I took the liberty of adding to your awesome T-Shirt... Perhaps a little more OFFENSIVE. I've made a "few" adjustments! :-DD
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMdZv-tWsAA2eOT.jpg)
If you want to combine vector art and set up a T-Shirt Campaign, I'd like to donate ALL PROCEEDS TO DAVE to support his awesome EEVBlog!
-
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html)
Since we are accused of being secret agents of "Big Battery," I figured it would be worth re-linking this article. This article parallels every hallmark allegation of a "free energy" scheme:
- A technology so revolutionary, competitors will commit crimes to stop it
- The device will supposedly disrupt a large, stodgy industry.
- The people running that industry are either corrupt or incompetent.
- Said industry will conspire to keep this miracle from the people.
It's all so very familiar. Never mind the facts. Never mind that these very large companies are able to hire very talented professionals who understand chemistry and tell the truth.
Then there is the accusation of folks like Dave, many others, and myself in speaking out about this. I will tell you my concerns:
- I object to the apparent abuse of academic credentials to argue from authority about a device that clearly is ineffective at best in most cases.
- I object to the claiming of inflated academic credentials. I refer to the supposed "Professor of Electrical Engineering" in the "Batteriser Buggers a Monkey" video who received his UNDERGRADUATE degree in 2014.
- I object to Silicon Valley's adoption of the PT Barnum marketing model and financing these ridiculous ventures while kicking folks with more humble, but very viable business ideas to the curb.
- I object to the abuse of Corporate immunity in making these claims.
- I object to such ventures subsequently going public and convincing institutional investors to gamble people's retirement funds on magical thinking.
Notice how none of my objections have to do with a reduction in battery sales. If you must Bob, do continue to think I am an agent for "Big Battery." That made my week. Thanks.
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PC world. how hilarious that they fall for that. I would hope that when people DO debunk this that they mention that you can recharge non-rechargeable batteries for about 8 times the life using much lower charge rates than normal, there are chargers built for it.
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I got another one for you.... Perhaps a little more OFFENSIVE. I've made a "few" adjustments! :-DD
If you want to combine vector art and set up a T-Shirt Campaign, I'd like to donate ALL PROCEEDS TO DAVE to support his awesome EEVBlog!
Nice one, better than mine :) Anyone who wants to do another design, this is my Inkscape (https://inkscape.org) vector file: http://www.frank-buss.de/tmp/probes-the-monkey.svg (http://www.frank-buss.de/tmp/probes-the-monkey.svg) And the 600 DPI PNG export: http://www.frank-buss.de/tmp/probes-the-monkey.png (http://www.frank-buss.de/tmp/probes-the-monkey.png) All public domain.
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I got another one for you.... Perhaps a little more OFFENSIVE. I've made a "few" adjustments! :-DD
If you want to combine vector art and set up a T-Shirt Campaign, I'd like to donate ALL PROCEEDS TO DAVE to support his awesome EEVBlog!
Nice one, better than mine :) Anyone who wants to do another design, this is my Inkscape (https://inkscape.org) vector file: http://www.frank-buss.de/tmp/probes-the-monkey.svg (http://www.frank-buss.de/tmp/probes-the-monkey.svg) And the 600 DPI PNG export: http://www.frank-buss.de/tmp/probes-the-monkey.png (http://www.frank-buss.de/tmp/probes-the-monkey.png) All public domain.
Couldn't have done it without you.... I'm sure it can be improved even more. We need something for the back of the shirt too! I love this crowd-sourcing a T-shirt for EEVBlog fans! We need to put something related to EEVBlog on the back so people can check out the site.
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This batteriser story is getting ridiculous, they're like the group of people who insist on believing that the Earth is flat, anyone saying otherwise is a good guy but he's part of the conspiracy...
Have you seen this one on the same Batteroo channel ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP2kuEzySP8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP2kuEzySP8)
Another T-Shirt idea here !
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This batteriser story is getting ridiculous, they're like the group of people who insist on believing that the Earth is flat, anyone saying otherwise is a good guy but he's part of the conspiracy...
Have you seen this one on the same Batteroo channel ?
Another T-Shirt idea here !
Are you sure they are really twins? A bit of clever video editing and changing the hair style pulls off the trick nicely, using the same lady! In fact, we can have Dave do the same kind of "twin" commercial by having him put on a wig and doing the proper cuts and dialog and combining shots for the side-by-side when both "twins" are on the screen!
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This batteriser story is getting ridiculous, they're like the group of people who insist on believing that the Earth is flat, anyone saying otherwise is a good guy but he's part of the conspiracy...
Have you seen this one on the same Batteroo channel ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP2kuEzySP8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP2kuEzySP8)
Another T-Shirt idea here !
Oh GOD another BimBo with fake BooBs.
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Hey, the T-Shirt it looks pretty good on them! What do you think? :-DD
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On the serious side, I am currently running down a pair of NiMH cells in my Garmin eMap, logging the voltage with my new 34465A. Then we'll see if that result matches what I found using a lab supply, or not.
Well, that was interesting after all. Using a power supply, I consistently got shutdown voltages around 2.13 - 2.14V on my old GPS. But using batteries it lasted until 2.03V. Not a big difference, but still....
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Going along the lines of ARSETRONICS.... What about BUTTERISER! :-DD
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On the serious side, I am currently running down a pair of NiMH cells in my Garmin eMap, logging the voltage with my new 34465A. Then we'll see if that result matches what I found using a lab supply, or not.
Well, that was interesting after all. Using a power supply, I consistently got shutdown voltages around 2.13 - 2.14V on my old GPS. But using batteries it lasted until 2.03V. Not a big difference, but still....
How did you connect the PSU to the GPS? Could be contact resistance. At 150mA that's about 0.6 ohms, that's a bit much but not entirely impossible.
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How did you connect the PSU to the GPS? Could be contact resistance.
I used some standard wires with gator clips at one end. But I used the 34465A to measure the voltage directly at the battery terminals in the GPS also when using the PSU, so wire resistance should not be the issue.
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Well, that was interesting after all. Using a power supply, I consistently got shutdown voltages around 2.13 - 2.14V on my old GPS. But using batteries it lasted until 2.03V. Not a big difference, but still....
So better, not worse ;D
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This whole thing is hilarious. I liked Dave pointing out the barely if unused Weller iron just sitting there, and the scope connected to it's own signal generator with a badly compensated probe. :-DD They could have at least "proved" that the batteriser works by slipping it on the dead battery and then getting the monkey to work... I guess they tried off video, and it did not work. :-DD
If I had to guess how they're getting their claim about cut off voltage being 1.3 or whatever, what they probably do is test a device until the battery dies and device shuts off, then test the battery. Depending on the nature of the device when it dies it probably stops drawing any current at all, so the battery voltage will go back up.
As far as potentially adding any kind of circuitry like this in future batteries I don't think this would be a good idea. Batteries are disposable, keep them as simple as possible, leave it up to the product being powered to implement this if it makes sense for that device. For example a LED flash light could probably benefit from this as LEDs have a certain cut off voltage but don't draw much current so you could probably squeeze a bit more power out of the batteries. But even then it would almost have to be a switch on the flash light that you turn on. If you have a DC DC converter circuit running all the time it's probably going to waste more power than what you get back by using the last 5-10% of the battery. Motorized devices on the other hand really can't benefit from this due to the sporadic current spikes. At least, that's my noob opinion on the thing. I'm no EE professor.
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(https://static.garmincdn.com/en/products/010-01508-00/g/cf-lg.jpg)
I have procured a Garmin etrex 20X GPS. The Garmin Dakota is extremely similar aside from the etrex's lack of a touchscreen. The battery save and backlight dimming features can both be deactivated in software, so there is no reason to construct an automated finger for testing. Why Batteroo didn't simply read the manual and do the same will remain a persistent mystery.
Here is the initial data from testing the unit directly out of the box. The etrex 20x uses two AA alkaline, lithium, or NiMH rechargeable batteries and has a mode setting for each such that the low battery warning functions appropriately.
Battery cutout voltages:
Alkaline Mode: 1.05V per cell
Lithium Mode: 1.29V per cell
NiMH Rechargeable Mode: 1.05V per cell
Notes:
- These are single data point readings. I have not had time to do more.
- These measurements were taken indoors with no GPS lock. I am assuming that this is an equivalent condition under which Batteroo conducted this test.
- Screen brightness set to 100%
- All power management functions disabled
- This device, without a doubt, already has a boost converter installed. Here is a test run in alkaline mode, full screen brightness, no power conservation features
V I (mA) mW
================
3.2 147 470
3.0 150 450
2.8 160 448
2.6 172 447
2.4 188 451
2.2 207 455
2.1 218 458
This is clear evidence that adding a "Batteriser" type of external boost converter could only result in doubling up on converters and reduce the overall efficiency of the device. This device is already engineered to maximize the depletion of a alkaline battery by operating in constant power mode.
From looking through the GPS, I believe that there are numerous ways to alter the results of a rundown test. I will be working on those next. Simply by turning off the backlight, one can reduce the power draw by over 50%. This can have a very dramatic effect on battery life as evidenced by the attached graph extracted from Duracell's MN1500 data sheet for AA alkaline batteries. Changing the operating mode of the GPS such that its 450mW typical power use turns down to 220 mW, will change the expected operation time of the device from approximately 3 hours to over 8 hours.
In short, reducing the rate at which power is extracted from a battery is how to extract the absolute most energy from the battery. Increasing the power draw, by doubling up boost converters is not a plausible method by which to extract more energy from a battery. It is exactly the *wrong* direction one has to go in order maximize battery performance.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=165609;image)
More to come....
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So it was most likely set to lithium for their test, which explains the 1.25 volt or so cut off that's I'd figured ;) it also means that yes, of course the butteriser would increase the run time to what it should have been if the device was actually set right!
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So it was most likely set to lithium for their test, which explains the 1.25 volt or so cut off that's I'd figured ;) it also means that yes, of course the butteriser would increase the run time to what it should have been if the device was actually set right!
I'm going to not make any speculations as to *how* the results were achieved until I have actually had time to do the testing. So, please, don't read any more into what I've written than what I've written. :)
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I am not sure if these were mentioned or not, I did some estimates based on Batteriser's current-vs-time plot. It is certainly questionable as to how they did the test.
1). At the 1.5 hour point when the GPS turned to the low power mode, the batteries consumed only about 200mAh to 300 mAh, which is about 10% to 15% of the battery's capacity.
2). The low power turning point is at about 1.3V (under load) based on a constant power consumption calculation.
1.5V x 130mA / 150mA = 1.3V
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=165614)
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Its completely obvious they had it in lithium mode. Lol
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I have procured a Garmin etrex 20X GPS. The Garmin Dakota is extremely similar aside from the etrex's lack of a touchscreen.
Most likely it is a Garmin Approach G3: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg732236/#msg732236 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg732236/#msg732236)
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I have procured a Garmin etrex 20X GPS. The Garmin Dakota is extremely similar aside from the etrex's lack of a touchscreen.
Most likely it is a Garmin Approach G3: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg732236/#msg732236 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg732236/#msg732236)
Yeah, we figured that out 3 days ago :p
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I have procured a Garmin etrex 20X GPS. The Garmin Dakota is extremely similar aside from the etrex's lack of a touchscreen. The battery save and backlight dimming features can both be deactivated in software, so there is no reason to construct an automated finger for testing. Why Batteroo didn't simply read the manual and do the same will remain a persistent mystery.
Unless it is the same it leaves open the question of what are the differences. So drawing comparisons from one to the other can't be done with the intention of refuting (or supporting) the original test results.
However, the question I wanted to ask you is, does the battery capacity meter seem to take into account the shallower and flatter NiMH discharge? Or does it seem to be strictly based on battery voltage.
This is the one clever thing Batteroo has done: use a GPS that can't be purchased any longer. I thought about this for a couple of days and thought buying a Dakota would be good enough. It won't. Nothing will. There's a million excuses such as different settings, different firmware, not being in "golf mode," etc. It will never end. The Apple keyboard and trackpad are far easier because they are essentially modeless devices. I am going to approach these tests from the point of view that this class of device will have to do certain things in order to run effectively off two AA batteries. My plan is to test the device to show how it does those things. This GPS and the Dakota/Approach shown in the Batteriser video have very similar battery lives. The Dakota is rated at 20 hours. The etrex 20x is rated at 25.
I have already been in contact with Garmin and have a written statement about how they manage their devices' battery use. I am going to continue to speak with them next week. I have forwarded the claims made regarding their products by Batteroo, but it always takes a few days to get through engineering and legal.
I'm not even through the first test and it's looking pretty bad for the Batteroo runtime claims. After 2:05 minutes of running the GPS at full tilt (everything turned out to maximum), the battery voltage is at 2.71V as measured directly at the battery terminals. After the tests are complete, I will post the data.
And I'll tell you what I'm NOT doing. I'm not dissipating power through an external current shunt during the test. I've already demonstrated that the device runs in constant power mode, so monitoring the current is silly.
Oh, and to answer your question, yes I will try to determine if the "fuel gauge" readings differ by battery chemistry. There are only four status bars, so this will be very coarse, but I'm betting they do display differently according to chemistry.
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2.53V @ 4h51m
Hello Dr. Bob,
What did you do to make your GPS die in 2 hours?! Enquiring minds want to know. I haven't been able to kill this thing yet, and I'm REALLY TRYING.
Oh that's right, I don't have an external resistor in series with the battery. What was the value of your shunt resistor again?
=======================
Oh, and I do need to thank you. After all my prompting, you finally acknowledge the existence of Thevenin's Theorem. That is just fantastic. I'm only sad that you had to look it up on Wikipedia. I know you're on sabbatical/summer vacation and brain dumps happen during those interludes, but don't you teach this stuff for a living...?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=165643;image)
Maybe when you're back on the clock, we can talk about how you decided to choose an ESR that was off Duracell's chart by a fair margin. You're citing 0.5 ohm as a "typical" ESR. That's really a bold assumption since the below graph shows it at 0.3 ohms at full discharge. Then you spout off about 1.5 ohms, because of cold batteries. Interesting, where's your environmental chamber for these tests, Bob? If you're going to test in an office environment, let's use office environment data, shall we?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=165645;image)
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2.53V @ 4h51m
Hello Dr. Bob,
What did you do to make your GPS die in 2 hours?! Enquiring minds want to know. I haven't been able to kill this thing yet, and I'm REALLY TRYING.
Oh that's right, I don't have an external resistor in series with the battery. What was the value of your shunt resistor again?
You can only assume that they had it set to lithium so it shut down at 1.25 - 1.3volts per cell. :palm:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Garmin-G3-Touchscreen-GOLF-GPS-/331619569807?hash=item4d3611108f (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Garmin-G3-Touchscreen-GOLF-GPS-/331619569807?hash=item4d3611108f)
Who wants to buy one for Dave!
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Using a power supply, I consistently got shutdown voltages around 2.13 - 2.14V on my old GPS. But using batteries it lasted until 2.03V. Not a big difference, but still....
So better, not worse ;D
Exactly. If anything, it only helps the Batteriser that we are finding the cutoff voltage with a power supply instead of batteries.
But I'd really like to find out where that difference is coming from. It should be possible to get consistent data regardless of the power origin. The only thing I changed, apart from PSU to batteries, was my Fluke 187 that I had in series for current measurements while using my PSU. But that should not change anything, as I measured the voltage at the GPS battery clips like this:
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This whole thing is hilarious. I liked Dave pointing out the barely if unused Weller iron just sitting there, and the scope connected to it's own signal generator with a badly compensated probe.
I'm not saying Dave couldn't have noticed those things by himself, but ... I know that other people pointed them out first in the forum.
(I might have been the first to point out the soldering iron but I don't really care enough to wade through all the messages just to make a point)
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Going along the lines of ARSETRONICS.... What about BUTTERISER! :-DD
"BUTTeriser BatterPOO"
yeah, I went there....
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I'm not saying Dave couldn't have noticed those things by himself, but ... I know that other people pointed them out first in the forum.
(I might have been the first to point out the soldering iron but I don't really care enough to wade through all the messages just to make a point)
You seriously want credit for pointing that out? As if that's not the first thing everyone in here looks at!
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You seriously want credit for pointing that out? As if that's not the first thing everyone in here looks at!
*randomly mashes the screen, looking for a "like" button*
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But I'd really like to find out where that difference is coming from. It should be possible to get consistent data regardless of the power origin. The only thing I changed, apart from PSU to batteries, was my Fluke 187 that I had in series for current measurements while using my PSU.
Culprit found. It was user error (as in me): I used the 400mA range on my Fluke, so as a precaution I set the current limit on my PSU to match. BIG mistake |O
The GPS only uses less than 200 mA (average), but it apparently pull some nasty spikes when it gets close to the cutoff limit. A big current spike and the 400 mA current limiter had it shut down prematurely. Using 2A current limit and removing the Fluke from the circuit, I now get the cutoff voltage to be 2.044V. Much closer to the battery measured shutdown (2.026V).
Attached is the current spike (with 400 mA current limiter):
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Using a power supply, I consistently got shutdown voltages around 2.13 - 2.14V on my old GPS. But using batteries it lasted until 2.03V. Not a big difference, but still....
So better, not worse ;D
Exactly. If anything, it only helps the Batteriser that we are finding the cutoff voltage with a power supply instead of batteries.
But I'd really like to find out where that difference is coming from. It should be possible to get consistent data regardless of the power origin. The only thing I changed, apart from PSU to batteries, was my Fluke 187 that I had in series for current measurements while using my PSU. But that should not change anything, as I measured the voltage at the GPS battery clips like this:
The Fluke 187 is rated with 1.8 mV/mA typical in the 400 mA range. Did you use the 400 mA range?
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The Fluke 187 is rated with 1.8 mV/mA typical in the 400 mA range. Did you use the 400 mA range?
Forgot to mention that the crude mV/mA unit is a tame way to omit the 1.8 Ohms rating... :--
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Yes, I did use the 400 mA setting, but as I measured the voltage at the GPS end (not the PSU end), I could have put tens of ohms in series with the supply and it still wouldn't matter.
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FYI, posted on the other thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg732236/#msg732236 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg732236/#msg732236)
The GPS used is a Garmin Approach, not the Dakota.
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Maybe when you're back on the clock, we can talk about how you decided to choose an ESR that was off Duracell's chart by a fair margin. You're citing 0.5 ohm as a "typical" ESR. That's really a bold assumption since the below graph shows it at 0.3 ohms at full discharge. Then you spout off about 1.5 ohms, because of cold batteries.
0R9 is, according to the PDF they link, at a temperature of -40C. :wtf: :palm:
the typical effective resistance of fresh Energizer alkaline ... approximately 150 to 300 m-ohms at room temperature
The chart from the same PDF they linked shows 0R15 to 0R3 as corresponding to temperatures of 17 to -10C. Incidentally that is roughly the temperature inside an igloo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igloo). :o
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=165732)
At this point, after seeing all this bullshit, I'm wondering whether they're deliberately doing it, or just plain incompetent...
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FYI, posted on the other thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg732236/#msg732236 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg732236/#msg732236)
The GPS used is a Garmin Approach, not the Dakota.
The other reason I didn't order a Dakota is that I wanted a demonstrable result prior to the end of the Indiegogo campaign.
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Here's the first test.
All power management functions disabled.
GPS+Glonass Lock
Screen brightness 100%
Run time: 11.23 hours
Battery Cutoff Voltage: 2.097V or 1.049V per cell
I have no idea *what* I would have to do in order to force this GPS to run down in two hours. If this was the Dakota, with 80% of the battery life (20 vs 25), it would likely have run 8+ hours in this test.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=165740;image)
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I have no idea *what* I would have to do in order to force this GPS to run down in two hours.
Maybe the one in the video didn't run down. If the burden voltage of all the equipment they had attached to it is large enough* then it will shut down long before the batteries are actually dead.
(*) It only has to be 0.2V or so to cause premature shutdown and that's only about 1 Ohm of resistance.
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I have a handful of these little boost regulators lying around:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mini-PFM-Control-DC-DC-0-9V-5V-to-USB-5V-DC-Boost-Step-up-Power-Supply-Module-WS-/321722956294?hash=item4ae82eba06 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mini-PFM-Control-DC-DC-0-9V-5V-to-USB-5V-DC-Boost-Step-up-Power-Supply-Module-WS-/321722956294?hash=item4ae82eba06)
So I hooked one up to my two discharged AA cells, (wired in series) that I'd tested my gameboy with, in the video I posted earlier.
Unloaded, I had about 2.5volts for the two cells in series, but with the boost regulator, that instantly dropped to under 1volt... with nothing connected to the output of the boost converter.
efficiency? very poor! so unless they can get their efficiency to 99%, you're not gaining anything!
It did however then run the gameboy for 10 seconds :-DD
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I know that someone is looking at the tail end of the graph and thinking that the battery is not fully depleted. You're correct. There's a *tiny* amount of energy left and the battery voltage will recover to the point that the device will power back on. So, I ran a subsequent test. It ran for 10 minutes. That's about 1.5% longer. Not 800%.
This would be even worse with an external boost converter since one is giving up about 10% of the efficiency.
To conclude, this class of devices already have excellent battery management technology. The Garmin GPS series that use two AA batteries clearly already have a boost converter built in. Adding an external boost converter is not a plausible method to increase run time.
These devices do NOT leave 80% of the energy remaining in an alkaline battery after they reach cutout voltage of 1.05 to 1.10 V.
Attempting to use the battery beyond the initial cutoff voltage can only be expected to increase operation time by a few minutes, NOT hours.
I have now tested Batteroo's premise on the three major classes of specific devices they claim will benefit from their technology. Batteroo has already admitted publicly that low-drain devices such as remote controls will not benefit. My testing of these devices shows that none of them comes remotely close to reporting dead batteries while leaving 80% of the energy remaining in the battery.
Since the premises are flawed, so must be the conclusion.
As I have already offered, I will reproduce these tests in person, if I am given reasonable time accommodations. You come to me. If there is a question, PM me. I will respond.
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Just to point out a bit of irony... Batteriser just passed the 800% funded mark on IndieGogo, precisely the amount of extra battery power they also claim to get!
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Just to point out a bit of irony... Batteriser just passed the 800% funded mark on IndieGogo, precisely the amount of extra battery power they also claim to get!
Which is of course wrong, because they also claim 8x, which is not the same as 800% :-DD
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I haven't noticed anyone post about their comments in PC World: [link] (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2928997/batteriser-is-a-250-gadget-that-extends-disposable-battery-life-by-800-percent.html)
There is a user named "EEAtlanta" that I suspect is also "not associated" with Batteroo replying to every negative comment in this article. Most of the replies are copy-paste but if you scroll down a bit you'll see this gem:
Dave Jones graduated from Dramatic Arts School. The inventors of Batteriser are professors of electrical engineering. Regarding your post, Batteroo released a video demonstrating why you cannot use a power supply box to "debunk" the Batteriser. Batteries and constant power supply boxes behave very differently: [youtube link]
That Youtube page also has a video of the Batteriser tested on flashlights. Check it out if interested.
Thanks
:palm: Sorry Dave. I believe your credentials (not that you need them to debunk this rubbish...)
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The appeal to authority is amusing, but EEAtlanta? That's where the "Batteriser Batteroo" guy (and his sockpuppet) claims to be from. Look here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/360/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/360/)
It's all ridiculously silly. They're just parrotting the Batteriser "debunking" video and not even giving any technical argument for why they think the Batteriser actually works... :palm:
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The appeal to authority is amusing, but EEAtlanta? That's where the "Batteriser Batteroo" guy (and his sockpuppet) claims to be from. Look here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/360/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/360/)
It's all ridiculously silly. They're just parrotting the Batteriser "debunking" video and not even giving any technical argument for why they think the Batteriser actually works... :palm:
It's the Donald Trump response "Your a dum-dum, I'm right stupid"
Or the politicians 3 point plan.
Marketing...
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Which is of course wrong, because they also claim 8x, which is not the same as 800% :-DD
Uhm, yes, that's exactly what 800% are, a factor of 8. What else would it be?
1% is 1/100 of the basis value, 150% is 1.5 and 800% is 8.
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bateroo 'fan' is money spend wisely
http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html (http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html)
at a time when we were assembling our own computers to save money, we were paying a PR firm $16,000 a month. And they were worth it. PR is the news equivalent of search engine optimization; instead of buying ads, which readers ignore, you get yourself inserted directly into the stories.
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Which is of course wrong, because they also claim 8x, which is not the same as 800% :-DD
Uhm, yes, that's exactly what 800% are, a factor of 8. What else would it be?
1% is 1/100 of the basis value, 150% is 1.5 and 800% is 8.
100% increase is a x2 increase.
200% increase is a x3 increase.
etc.
Try it on your calculator.
If I gave you 100% interest on your $1, you would have $1 + 100% of $1 = $2. A x2 increase.
Nobody says a x1 increase, it's no increase at all.
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Which is of course wrong, because they also claim 8x, which is not the same as 800% :-DD
Uhm, yes, that's exactly what 800% are, a factor of 8. What else would it be?
1% is 1/100 of the basis value, 150% is 1.5 and 800% is 8.
100% increase is a x2 increase.
200% increase is a x3 increase.
etc.
Try it on your calculator.
If I gave you 100% interest on your $1, you would have $1 + 100% of $1 = $2. A x2 increase.
Nobody says a x1 increase, it's no increase at all.
Nah.
100% increase is a x1 INCREASE, which is x2 final total value compared to the original.
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100% increase is a x1 INCREASE, which is x2 final total value compared to the original.
makes no sense when you try to express x2 increase.
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you might say a 2x addition to the original to indicate 3x total but you need to suggest an addition, dividend or some such thing
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The joule thief looks like the father of the batteriser.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_thief (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_thief)
You can easily (and cheap) build one yourself and test how far you get with dead batteries.
On low amp loads (like a led) it works pretty well.
http://ern-est.github.io/projects/joule-thief.html (http://ern-est.github.io/projects/joule-thief.html)
Btw. don't fall for the batteriser most battery powered electronic gear needs way to much current so it does not make a difference.
Cheers
Rubi
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The joule thief looks like the father of the batteriser. (...)
Yes, we all know that. The thing we are curious about is the miniaturization technology.
(Also, how do they get away with such a small inductor?!)
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The joule thief looks like the father of the batteriser. (...)
Yes, we all know that. The thing we are curious about is the miniaturization technology.
(Also, how do they get away with such a small inductor?!)
Probably similar to on-chip voltage regulators (FIVR) like on Intel Haswell CPUs. the inductor is embedded in the chip carrier and the converter runs at a very high frequency (30 to 100+ MHz).
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The joule thief looks like the father of the batteriser. (...)
Yes, we all know that. The thing we are curious about is the miniaturization technology.
(Also, how do they get away with such a small inductor?!)
Higher switching frequency ->smaller inductor
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In case you're wondering where the money is coming from, here are the backers:
http://sktainnopartners.com/80-2/ (http://sktainnopartners.com/80-2/)
Batteroo is actually housed inside a VC company called SK Telecom. In exchange for company equity, SK will fund a startup up to $1MM USD. That seed money can be in addition to other investors as well.
So, SK is playing a very prominent background role in all this. Before anyone flies off the handle and contacts/spams/hassles them, it would be best to just wait and see if SK is a witting or unwitting partner in all this.
Oh, to be the fly on the wall in Sunnyvale today... ::)
But, for those of you interested in fast-tracking a consumer-product startup, there's a lot to be learned by just clicking around the whole Batteroo network and see who the players are and what they do. Batteroo's premises may be wrong, but the actual going to market process has been well played. There's a lot to learn here.
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In case you're wondering where the money is coming from, here are the backers:
http://sktainnopartners.com/80-2/ (http://sktainnopartners.com/80-2/)
Batteroo is actually housed inside a VC company called SK Telecom. In exchange for company equity, SK will fund a startup up to $1MM USD. That seed money can be in addition to other investors as well.
Well it doesn't seem to be the first time a VC firm was lead down such a path. Wasn't uBeam (ultrasonic phone charger) also a VC-backed company? And the board of directors from Airing (Encite) previously did some funny business with VC money trying to develop fuel-cell batteries and went bankrupt (Echelon) and were sued by the investors... See here:
http://www.potteranderson.com/delawarecase-185.html (http://www.potteranderson.com/delawarecase-185.html)
I don't know what the process for review is at these VC firms but obviously they like to take a risk. What seems to be new is this "mix" of VC and crowd-funding, however legally if things go down I believe the VC gets first dibs on any monies or assets and can recoup some money, while the IGG or KS backers get left high and dry. So perhaps the VC's are encouraging this to mitigate their risk.
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The original GameBoy operates fairly well down to 2volts... that's not for 2 cells, that's four, 0.5volts per cell :-// It would actually still power up with the supply set to 2volts, not just operate down to it.
It's still usable down to 1.3volts, although it lost all audio, but it probably depends on the cartridge as to how much load it puts on the internal boost regulator....
Boost regulators being used in devices 26 years ago?! who would have thought!
Now, how can we market this!
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The original GameBoy operates fairly well down to 2volts... that's not for 2 cells, that's four, 0.5volts per cell :-// It would actually still power up with the supply set to 2volts, not just operate down to it.
It's still usable down to 1.3volts, although it lost all audio, but it probably depends on the cartridge as to how much load it puts on the internal boost regulator....
Boost regulators being used in devices 26 years ago?! who would have thought!
Now, how can we market this!
Not bad considering that's an all-discrete self-oscillating 2-transistor converter (http://www.devrs.com/gb/files/gameboy3.gif)...
(That's the only schematic I can find, although I can't figure out how the regulation is supposed to work; it seems to be a primary-side regulated design.
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100% increase is a x1 INCREASE, which is x2 final total value compared to the original.
No one uses the term x1 increase.
Go try it some time and you'll get looked at very strangely.
Everyone however, even non technical people know that "x2 increase" or "2 times" means doubling of a number.
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(Also, how do they get away with such a small inductor?!)
Small inductors are easy. One that provides sufficient magnetic storage to enable a high current and high efficiency boost converter over a wide range is another matter entirely.
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(That's the only schematic I can find, although I can't figure out how the regulation is supposed to work; it seems to be a primary-side regulated design.
Put a dot just to the right of D3 where the vertical line crosses and it's clear how it works.
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Batteroo's premises may be wrong, but the actual going to market process has been well played. There's a lot to learn here.
I agree. It is one of the most cleverly executed campaigns I've seen in a long time. It's been a long time in the planing I'm sure, with a ton of money spent.
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What seems to be new is this "mix" of VC and crowd-funding, however legally if things go down I believe the VC gets first dibs on any monies or assets and can recoup some money, while the IGG or KS backers get left high and dry. So perhaps the VC's are encouraging this to mitigate their risk.
That would be part of it. The other part is building media and market hype through the crowd funding. In fact it's almost expected these days.
Always remember that the VC/angel investor's goal is to flip the company for profit at the first available opportunity. Crowd funding success looks good to these suckers further down the money chain.
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Always remember that the VC/angel investor's goal is to flip the company for profit at the first available opportunity. Crowd funding success looks good to these suckers further down the money chain.
They even say that on their website ;D
http://sktainnopartners.com/overview/ (http://sktainnopartners.com/overview/)
SKTA Innovation Accelerator seeds and accelerates core technology startups to create and manage the essential data center. The Innovation Accelerator matches entrepreneurs with industry leading strategic partners and provides initial funding up to $1M as a combination of working capital, state-of-the-art facilities, development tools and professional services (e.g. legal and financial). Entrepreneurs concentrate on developing their technologies, while strategic partners and venture capitalists access lower-risk investment opportunities and shorter time-to-money horizons.
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Always remember that the VC/angel investor's goal is to flip the company for profit at the first available opportunity. Crowd funding success looks good to these suckers further down the money chain.
They even say that on their website ;D
http://sktainnopartners.com/overview/ (http://sktainnopartners.com/overview/)
SKTA Innovation Accelerator seeds and accelerates core technology startups to create and manage the essential data center. The Innovation Accelerator matches entrepreneurs with industry leading strategic partners and provides initial funding up to $1M as a combination of working capital, state-of-the-art facilities, development tools and professional services (e.g. legal and financial). Entrepreneurs concentrate on developing their technologies, while strategic partners and venture capitalists access lower-risk investment opportunities and shorter time-to-money horizons.
That makes sense for a real working truthfully marketed product. But for something that is more media hype than reality, wouldn't they be flipping a lemon? Or does everyone just want a piece of the money train to milk the public for as long as possible until the crash?
Well, they are still selling electronic rust inhibitors for cars after 30 years and fleecing the public so I guess this money train will go a long way. I may as well invest!
Sadly, when the proverbial train has crashed or ship has sailed, who has actually profited all that time? The engineer or the non-engineering executives who run the business and marketing and collect 100x + compensation? Who is rewarded the most? Who gets laid off first? I'm sure we all have stories about how well-meaning engineers have been treated and how innovations or quality improvement gets squashed by executive management due to cost reduction and profitability concerns, simply to pad their own grossly inflated salaries and bonuses. Pillage the company for as long as you can and move on... rewards related to performance? Sure, save money by reducing quality and cutting engineering staff, increase profit and get rewarded. Then when your product has turned into a pile of turd, it's too late and the execs have already made millions and retired, and a new pile are waiting at the door to "save" the company.
I am sure we could start a thread on this... but back to Batteriser. This company is clearly a business executive management directed enterprise and I wonder what engineers are actually being hired and whether they have any good chance of actually reaping the rewards of this venture. I guess it depends on who is taking the investment risk and who has the best skills at making money (even the most brilliant engineer without marketing and business skills would not necessarily make a hugely successful company... We need the Steve Jobs for the Wozniak). The corollary is also true... A mediocre engineer can, with the help of good business execs, can make a pile of money.
So who deserves the biggest reward? The engineer or the business person who is brilliant in their own way of marketing and selling?
One final thought... How many of us, even well-meaning engineering and scientist types, given the opportunity, would do the same thing? The University professors and engineers figure they have their shot at making a pile of money and help their lives and family, and make multiple years worth of salary compared to their current jobs. When the developer of Minecraft received a bid from Microsoft (was it $3 billion?) did he pause and think "oh no, I won't sell to this evil corporation"? He got a lot of backlash from the Minecraft community but he did what he had to. I bet many of us who want better lives for our families would not blink at being on the receiving end of a pile of money, even if it was from a product or service that is not harming people and at the very worst just useless at doing what it claims.
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something that is more media hype than reality
I've got a total mental allergy to anything with too much media hype. Never used twitter, never used facebook, or any other ISIS media site for that matter, when there is too much hype, like when someone suggest Torch browser and I go look at their website, up comes my lunch.
It serves extremely well as a rule of thumb. After all, who pays for any media campaign in the long run ?
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A mediocre engineer can, with the help of good business execs, can make a pile of money.
Small, nasty people end up with small lives surrounded by small nasty people.
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That makes sense for a real working truthfully marketed product. But for something that is more media hype than reality, wouldn't they be flipping a lemon?
Of course. But the next person to buy in doesn't know that. That's the trick, and the illusion that crowd funding success gives. Just because Joe Public bought into the product doesn't mean it actually does what it claims.
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That makes sense for a real working truthfully marketed product. But for something that is more media hype than reality, wouldn't they be flipping a lemon?
Of course. But the next person to buy in doesn't know that. That's the trick, and the illusion that crowd funding success gives. Just because Joe Public bought into the product doesn't mean it actually does what it claims.
Just like patents.
People often use patents as "proof" that something works. In reality the patent office isn't there to prove things work as claimed or not, they're just a registry office.
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Just like patents.
People often use patents as "proof" that something works. In reality the patent office isn't there to prove things work as claimed or not, they're just a registry office.
Patent offices don't register perpetuum mobiles, if you can't show a working machine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion#Patents
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Another day, another twist on the slew of questionable claims:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-looks-to-save-our-planet-by-extending-battery-life-300128865.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-looks-to-save-our-planet-by-extending-battery-life-300128865.html)
SUNNYVALE, Calif., Aug. 17, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- Billions of alkaline batteries used every year are causing environmental harm due to greenhouse gases emitted during battery production, transportation, environmental effects of mining for battery materials, inefficient battery recycling methods and the disposal of battery waste into landfills, say experts at Batteroo Corporation.
Crafted from stainless steel at less than .1 millimeters thin, Batteriser is a reusable sleeve that slips on over new or most "used" batteries, and instantly taps into the up to 80 percent of remaining energy that is usually thrown away. Available for AA, AAA, C- and D-cell batteries, Batteriser has been tested and proven compatible on a variety of battery-operated home and office gadgets, including wireless keyboards, noise-canceling headphones, Xbox and Wii controllers, TV remote controls, walkie-talkies, digital scales, electronic toothbrushes, portable radios, flashlights and blood pressure monitors.
Every year, more than 15 billion batteries end up in landfills. By the time they reach this final destination, they have already created a significant carbon footprint. Greenhouse gas emissions from sourcing raw materials and factory production, in addition to the transportation of batteries to retail outlets around the world, result in potentially hazardous implications for the planet. Greenhouse gas emissions are a major environmental concern due to their potential effect on global climate change. Battery production and manufacturing was listed as a major source of greenhouse gas emissions in a 2010 study conducted by the California Department of Resources Recycling.
In addition to greenhouse gas emissions, another source of environmental harm comes from the mining of metals used in the production of disposable batteries. The environmental effect of mining is generations of chemical waste, excavation of the earth, and reduction of metallic resources, iron (steel), zinc and manganese in particular, that could be used for other much needed purposes.
Steel, zinc and manganese are not the only materials found in batteries. Batteries also contain potassium, graphite, copper, nickel, PVC, nylon and paper. Current recycling processes can only recover steel, zinc and manganese, with recycling technologies that vary depending on location affecting the percentage of material that is recoverable. Proven, cost-effective and safe recycling processes are not universally available for alkaline batteries. Additionally, many communities simply don't offer any means for collection or recycling of alkaline batteries, resulting in less than 2 percent of all batteries produced being recycled.
"The number of batteries that end up in landfills result in a significant impact on our planet and environment," said Batteroo cofounder Dr. Bob Roohparvar. "Sadly, significant number of disposable batteries end up in landfills with up to 80% of their energy remaining within them. If you line up all the disposable batteries that are thrown away each year, this would wrap around Earth 18.5 times every year! The easiest solution is to use fewer batteries. The Batteriser reduces and prevents environmental harm by increasing the lifespan of batteries, thus providing a solution where fewer batteries are produced and fewer batteries are thrown out in landfills." Additional information about how Batteroo is saving the world by saving battery life is Batteriser available at http://www.batteriser.com (http://www.batteriser.com).
About Batteroo
Batteroo Corporation is an innovator of intelligent power management and delivery systems (Batteriser). It is a sleeve that makes contact with the positive and negative ends of a common battery to access its untapped energy at a highly efficient regulated system voltage. Batteriser can extend the life of disposable alkaline batteries by up to 800 percent, saving consumers money and saving landfills from toxic battery waste which would result in soil contamination and a laundry list of negative environmental impacts. Batteriser has been tested and proven compatible on a variety of battery-operated home and office gadgets, including wireless keyboards, noise-cancelling headphones, Xbox and Wii controllers, TV remote controls, walkie-talkies, digital scales, electric toothbrushes, toys, portable radios, flashlights, and blood pressure monitors. The company was cofounded by Bob Roohparvar, Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering, who holds more than 20 patents in his 30-year career in power management, semiconductors, and consumer products, and Frankie Roohparvar, well known executive who holds more than 500 patents. For more information visit www.batteriser.com (http://www.batteriser.com).
Contact
Dan Miller
JPR Communications
dan@jprcom.com
818-798-1473
Logo - http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnh/20150601/219958LOGO (http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnh/20150601/219958LOGO)
SOURCE Batteroo
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Just like patents.
People often use patents as "proof" that something works. In reality the patent office isn't there to prove things work as claimed or not, they're just a registry office.
Patent offices don't register perpetuum mobiles, if you can't show a working machine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion#Patents
And as that link states, that's an exception.
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Another day, another twist on the slew of questionable claims:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-looks-to-save-our-planet-by-extending-battery-life-300128865.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-looks-to-save-our-planet-by-extending-battery-life-300128865.html)
A whole new round of clueless journalists are now going to repeat that without applying a single braincell to the content...?
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Another day, another twist on the slew of questionable claims:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-looks-to-save-our-planet-by-extending-battery-life-300128865.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-looks-to-save-our-planet-by-extending-battery-life-300128865.html)
A whole new round of clueless journalists are now going to repeat that without applying a single braincell to the content...?
What Journalists? This "PR Newswire" is nothing but a public relations marketing company. Here are their main selling points:
- Distribute - Reach local or global audiences across all media types.
- Amplify - Take your release beyond the basics for better results.
- Track & Manage - Track release performance and manage campaigns.
There are countless so called "Journalists" or bloggers who are paid to run stories. Even if they aren't paid directly, they will still fill their page up with key-words that Google and other media-aggregating and search sites will rank high in their list of trending topics... All because it will drive up traffic, and hence advertising clicks, and hence sales for everyone involved.
Have you noticed while surfing around lately how many "promoted stories" are being listed on many news sites, all with provocative headlines and photos? It is all meant as click-bait in order to increase advertising banner view-counts to drive up the cost for advertisers and give bloggers and media sites additional revenue!
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Another day, another twist on the slew of questionable claims:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-looks-to-save-our-planet-by-extending-battery-life-300128865.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/batteroo-looks-to-save-our-planet-by-extending-battery-life-300128865.html)
A whole new round of clueless journalists are now going to repeat that without applying a single braincell to the content...?
What Journalists?
According to their site, PR Newswire is: "The Easiest Place For Journalists to Find News"
https://prnmedia.prnewswire.com/ (https://prnmedia.prnewswire.com/)
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Batteroo arithmetic decoder for journalists:
The key is that most devices only tap a fraction of a battery's energy. Batteriser taps into the remaining energy that is usually thrown away.
9/10 most definitely is a fraction - and that or better seems to be the industry standard for the energy used in an alkaline battery before reporting "low battery."
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I'm profoundly disappointed that Batteroo is still featuring wireless keyboards, trackpads, and TV remotes as devices that will benefit from the Batteriser. This in spite of testing and Batteroo's own admission that devices in which batteries last for years would be better off without the Batteriser.
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It could have 92% efficiency while at the same time tapping into the remaining 8% of capacity! How many days +- would that be on a wireless keyboard that runs a year on a pair? Anyone want to do the math?
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It could have 92% efficiency while at the same time tapping into the remaining 8% of capacity! How many days +- would that be on a wireless keyboard that runs a year on a pair? Anyone want to do the math?
365x0.92x0.08= 27 days.
Keep in mind that the region of the last 8% of energy is a challenging operating area. Smart people have worked long and hard at extending battery life as it is one of the most common consumer complaints. They stop short for reasons other than laziness and negligence. ;)
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They stop short because they don't have the trade secrets that Batteriser has, research so important it was attempted stolen!
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taps into the up to 80 percent of remaining energy that is usually thrown away.
If you read this sentence carefully, they're not claiming that 80% of the energy in a battery is thrown away; they're claiming they can recover 80% of the "remaining energy", regardless of how much that actually is. In other words, they're saying their boost converter is only "up to" 80% efficient! Very sly wording there. Even in the quote from Rob, he doesn't mention exactly how much the Batteriser improves the situation
Of course they throw that all out when they parrot the "up to 800 percent" line later...
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Keep in mind that the region of the last 8% of energy is a challenging operating area. Smart people have worked long and hard at extending battery life as it is one of the most common consumer complaints. They stop short for reasons other than laziness and negligence. ;)
I assume that was a typo: It's not 8%, it's 80%.
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Keep in mind that the region of the last 8% of energy is a challenging operating area. Smart people have worked long and hard at extending battery life as it is one of the most common consumer complaints. They stop short for reasons other than laziness and negligence. ;)
I assume that was a typo: It's not 8%, it's 80%.
I'm talking about the 8% that is left in the battery after the initial 92% is used up. Sorry for the confusion. Much more of this and I'll have to ask Dr. Bob for a job. ;D
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taps into the up to 80 percent of remaining energy that is usually thrown away.
If you read this sentence carefully, they're not claiming that 80% of the energy in a battery is thrown away; they're claiming they can recover 80% of the "remaining energy", regardless of how much that actually is. In other words, they're saying their boost converter is only "up to" 80% efficient! Very sly wording there. Even in the quote from Rob, he doesn't mention exactly how much the Batteriser improves the situation
Of course they throw that all out when they parrot the "up to 800 percent" line later...
I'm going to run with the full statement that Batteroo continues to allege, which is that devices typically only extract 20% of the available energy out of a battery. It is certainly sneaky wording, but Batteroo clearly alleges that devices are leaving 80% of the battery capacity unused in this instance. And for the sake of repetitiveness and anyone just arriving, the Apple Keypad and Trackpad have been tested and they *do not* leave 80% of the battery's charge remaining after low voltage cutoff. If there is some special circumstance where this happens, OK, but someone tell me what / when that is.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=166073;image)(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=166075;image)
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@FrankBuss: I took the liberty of adding to your awesome T-Shirt... Perhaps a little more OFFENSIVE. I've made a "few" adjustments! :-DD
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMdZv-tWsAA2eOT.jpg)
If you want to combine vector art and set up a T-Shirt Campaign, I'd like to donate ALL PROCEEDS TO DAVE to support his awesome EEVBlog!
It would be nicer on the back of the t-shirt and not in front, but that's definitely a good design :D
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Gets a mention in EDN magazine -> http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440136/The-Batteriser--scam-or-savior-?_mc=NL_EDN_EDT_EDN_weekly_20150820&cid=NL_EDN_EDT_EDN_weekly_20150820&elq=8883029e0a2343869e525522381efeaa&elqCampaignId=24462&elqaid=27641&elqat=1&elqTrackId=b37b90cb8ddc48dab07eb1ddc94ac4a9 (http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440136/The-Batteriser--scam-or-savior-?_mc=NL_EDN_EDT_EDN_weekly_20150820&cid=NL_EDN_EDT_EDN_weekly_20150820&elq=8883029e0a2343869e525522381efeaa&elqCampaignId=24462&elqaid=27641&elqat=1&elqTrackId=b37b90cb8ddc48dab07eb1ddc94ac4a9)
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Gets a mention in EDN magazine.
Yep.
In the comments left by Batteroo they say:
Please join our discussion and live feed this week. The Batteroo Inc inventor will be doing a full length lecture on the Batteriser technology for engineers. Hopefully this will help you understand the product, so you stop spreading BS allegations "Scam artists!" and other stupid claims. This will be your chance to truly disprove the Batteriser technology publicly.
Hope to see you there
Brad Jones
Aug 19, 2015 2:07 PM EDT
So it's 'this week', but they don't say where/when.
Does anybody know?
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Gets a mention in EDN magazine -> http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440136/The-Batteriser--scam-or-savior-?_mc=NL_EDN_EDT_EDN_weekly_20150820&cid=NL_EDN_EDT_EDN_weekly_20150820&elq=8883029e0a2343869e525522381efeaa&elqCampaignId=24462&elqaid=27641&elqat=1&elqTrackId=b37b90cb8ddc48dab07eb1ddc94ac4a9 (http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/brians-brain/4440136/The-Batteriser--scam-or-savior-?_mc=NL_EDN_EDT_EDN_weekly_20150820&cid=NL_EDN_EDT_EDN_weekly_20150820&elq=8883029e0a2343869e525522381efeaa&elqCampaignId=24462&elqaid=27641&elqat=1&elqTrackId=b37b90cb8ddc48dab07eb1ddc94ac4a9)
And there is Mr Brad Jones again, or whatever he's calling himself these days, once again talking as if he's part of Batteriser and official spokesperson for them.
This is the same guy that is using multiple names, and making physical threats against people and even a 13yo kid.
Batteriser must know what this guy is doing and by them allowing it speaks volumes.
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This live feed would be interesting :popcorn: Unfortunately Dave won't be allowed, because they don't acknowledge that he is an engineer :(
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In the comments left by Batteroo they say:
Nope, this Brad Jones person (who uses multiple names) does not work for Batteroo.
So it's 'this week', but they don't say where/when.
Does anybody know?
Nope. And they didn't formally invite me, or anyone else it seems, apart from a post from this person who doesn't work for them on the EDN website that I haven't read until just now.
And they put out a message the other day saying their top priority is now some rubbish about doing R&D for the troops, so it's not going to happen. Or if it does they'll run it without notice and say nobody turned up to challenge them. Not that anyone should join their silly debate, just let them makes fools of themselves again. If they have technical details to present, let them just do it, it can stand on it's own merits.
Engineering like this isn't a debate, you either post data and reproducible facts and methods, or you don't.
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Here's the claimed response
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w)
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Am I the only one who thinks the statement made to justify the video untill "9:29" is wrong. I could not bear watching beyond "9:51". I think when someone remembers the basic physics principles of (1) Power(W)=Voltage(V)xCurrent(I) and (2) Power=Energy(E)/Time(T). he would not calculate area under a constant current plot and say that is the energy available.
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why is there a 46 minute video?! it takes 30 seconds to put the butteriser onto a dead cell and show the device now works :palm:
having 500 patents doesn't mean you're smart, it means you have no clue, or you'd be rich, and wouldn't need to keep coming up with new, stupid ideas!
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I'm up to 8 minutes, and I have no f*cking clue what he's even trying to argue anymore.
Is he saying devices don't cut off at 1.1volts? is he saying they actually cut off at 1.3volts? do I have to keep watching this? :palm:
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why is there a 46 minute video?! it takes 30 seconds to put the butteriser onto a dead cell and show the device now works :palm:
Something about a snail.
PS: Who told him that "profile shots are more sincere" :palm: (or whatever that 'profile' thing is all about)
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I'm up to 8 minutes, and I have no f*cking clue what he's even trying to argue anymore.
Up to 8 minutes it made sense, he actually showed he knew something about batteries.
The lies/horseshit/flimflam started about 9 minutes in. :palm:
I literally have no idea what their point is. Maybe I'm not smart enough. :-DD
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Just watch the summary from 45:20.
It says that a device may pull transient spikes of load current and this may pull the battery down below the device shutdown voltage and so shut down prematurely.
Me? I'd just connect an ultracap across each cell.
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Most discussion on this new video is happening on the original Batteriser thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/)
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I'm up to 8 minutes, and I have no f*cking clue what he's even trying to argue anymore.
Is he saying devices don't cut off at 1.1volts? is he saying they actually cut off at 1.3volts? do I have to keep watching this? :palm:
No I think his crazy claim is that devices that work down to 1.1V will also stop working if the battery can still supply 1.3V but a current surge causes the voltage to suddenly drop below 1.1V??
McBryce.
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That would make sense if and only if the device use a simple comparator to detect dead battery and shot down in this case. But well engineered product don't do that.
Such a dimple thing is just used for a single led or lcd display about the battery getting low. That's why such a display flick a lot because of this spikes, but I never saw a product that just cut power with such a test
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No I think his crazy claim is that devices that work down to 1.1V will also stop working if the battery can still supply 1.3V but a current surge causes the voltage to suddenly drop below 1.1V??
Well, yeah, in theory, on the white board. In practice it doesn't work like that in the majority of products for a multitude of often interacting reasons.
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No I think his crazy claim is that devices that work down to 1.1V will also stop working if the battery can still supply 1.3V but a current surge causes the voltage to suddenly drop below 1.1V??
Well, yeah, in theory, on the white board. In practice it doesn't work like that in the majority of products for a multitude of often interacting reasons.
Nobody seems to have told him that yet :)
McBryce.
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That would make sense if and only if the device use a simple comparator to detect dead battery and shot down in this case. But well engineered product don't do that.
Exactly, the product would have to a fast brown-out latch to catch those spikes. Hardly any products do that in practice.
Well engineered products have DC-DC converters with both input and output caps.
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This whole current spike thing is just a red herring. It's a new claim that they're making so that they don't need to competently address the old claims. And now that they're officially an over-unity device by their own words, they have no credibility left at all.
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If any device did that, worst case is the device would turn on the low battery symbol, it would be really really stupid if it just shut down.
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If any device did that, worst case is the device would turn on the low battery symbol, it would be really really stupid if it just shut down.
With the Batteriser that is exactly what is going to happen. There will be no low battery warning as the voltage of the batterisered battery will not decrease as the battery is discharged. The batterisered battery will die in a snap, no low battery warning what so ever. This may not be something that a person with a GPS or LED torch would like to experience in a middle of the night in the middle of nothing.
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Or any device that NEED to save information because of low battery, or prevent the user to use it because the battery is too low for doing something
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Or any device that NEED to save information because of low battery, or prevent the user to use it because the battery is too low for doing something
Possibly corrupting the filesystem potentially resulting in loss of all files.
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This whole current spike thing is just a red herring. It's a new claim that they're making so that they don't need to competently address the old claims. And now that they're officially an over-unity device by their own words, they have no credibility left at all.
I have the Tektronix TCP202 current probe that was used in the video. Time to check a few device .... :-BROKE
Regards,
Jay_Diddy_B
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Here's the claimed response
Br-r-r-r-r ...
(http://i.imgur.com/s3pXnp5.jpg)
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:-DD
This whole current spike thing is just a red herring. It's a new claim that they're making so that they don't need to competently address the old claims.
The funny thing is, someone actually posted about whether the Batteriser might help with current spikes, before that long video came out. It was either in this thread or the #751 thread, but I remember seeing that post (and the conclusion was that it wouldn't help because the battery would have to supply even more current into the booster).
...and while we're in funny mode...
(http://i.imgur.com/y82kvOD.jpg)
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:-DD :-+
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(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=167792;image)
JDB
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Luckily, your circuit design skills are a lot better than your Photoshopping skills Jay! :D
McBryce.
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^^ So, Bob's their uncle.
And a monkey's uncle at that.
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With Dave's latest video (789) it should be bloody obvious to batteriser that:
1. Ah doesn't measure battery capacity as they showed in their latest video. It can be seen in the Energizer datasheet that Ah capacity varies with load current. (I bet the Wh capacity of the battery doesn't vary as drastically with load current as does the Ah capacity) Will let Dave show that if he feels like it.
2. OC voltage is useless.
EDIT: Dave needs a debunking media press kit to go along with those batteriser media press kits.
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Good old fashioned science based on probing monkey bums'.
Good job again Dave!
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:-DD
This whole current spike thing is just a red herring. It's a new claim that they're making so that they don't need to competently address the old claims.
The funny thing is, someone actually posted about whether the Batteriser might help with current spikes, before that long video came out. It was either in this thread or the #751 thread, but I remember seeing that post (and the conclusion was that it wouldn't help because the battery would have to supply even more current into the booster).
...and while we're in funny mode...
I just got a new desktop background. Absolutely Brilliant. Thanks for the upload :-+
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The response video is a hoot. Did anyone notice that in the GPS test, their ' smoking gun', the device didn't 'fail' like they stated, it just popped up a notification saying the backlight cannot be at full brightness due to the battery level. :palm: They are saying that the device FAILS at this moment.
The GPS is a Garmin Approach G3. I found a review of it here. It says this notification displays when the device's battery level is at 1/2 to 3/4 of full capacity. The device still functions even when it is below 1.1V per cell.
We kept getting a warning screen that the battery power was “too low for full backlight”, even when the battery meter was showing between 1/2 and 3/4 of a charge remaining. ... One really annoying glitch – when the G3 batteries are near the threshold charge level for triggering a warning screen that battery power is insufficient for full backlighting, the device seems to frequently change its mind about whether there actually is sufficient power or not…and thus, it will re-display the warning screen 2 seconds after it just showed it to you and then again…and again. Once the charge level drops comfortably below that threshold, the problem seems to go away.
|O
http://www.criticalgolf.com/reviews/archived-products/garmin-approach-g3-review/ (http://www.criticalgolf.com/reviews/archived-products/garmin-approach-g3-review/)
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Thanks a lot for helping in giving me a headache .. Because of you I went and watched couple of their videos, I had to stop watching their last one after 9 minutes because the amount of the stupidity and BS gave me a headache .. They guy claims to have 500 patents and goes and uses a Volt axis to plot a current curve!!! Then uses that support his claim .. The Y axis is volts axis you idiot .. You can't plot a constant current curve on it then use the area under the incorrectly plotted curve to represent power!!! Anyone with basic electrical knowledge knows power= V*I, that guy not only ignored that to support his claims but had the nads to put it on video for everyone on this earth to see.
Thanks a lot Dave , you know you are helping them indirectly too .. The more you refute their claims the more curious people get to watch their videos, the more views they get, the more money from YouTube they get. Maybe that's part of their plans .. I don't know .. All I know that I have a massive headache .. The stupid hurts my brain.
Keep up the good work!
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I'd love to see a comparison of the discharge curves of a 'bare' battery and one with the batterizer on it... How much less energy do you get?
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The response video is a hoot. Did anyone notice that in the GPS test, their ' smoking gun', the device didn't 'fail' like they stated, it just popped up a notification saying the backlight cannot be at full brightness due to the battery level. :palm: They are saying that the device FAILS at this moment.
The GPS is a Garmin Approach G3. I found a review of it here. It says this notification displays when the device's battery level is at 1/2 to 3/4 of full capacity. The device still functions even when it is below 1.1V per cell.
We kept getting a warning screen that the battery power was “too low for full backlight”, even when the battery meter was showing between 1/2 and 3/4 of a charge remaining. ... One really annoying glitch – when the G3 batteries are near the threshold charge level for triggering a warning screen that battery power is insufficient for full backlighting, the device seems to frequently change its mind about whether there actually is sufficient power or not…and thus, it will re-display the warning screen 2 seconds after it just showed it to you and then again…and again. Once the charge level drops comfortably below that threshold, the problem seems to go away.
After seeing:
a) Exactly how dead batteries have to be for the monkey to stop moving,
and
b) How long they must have searched to find a device that does what that particular GPS does with batteries...
... you've got to wonder just how ruthless+evil these people are. These guys are pathological nutjobs (to use the correct technical term). They'll stop at nothing.
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Fungus: or they were particularly lucky for both
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... you've got to wonder just how ruthless+evil these people are. These guys are pathological nutjobs (to use the correct technical term). They'll stop at nothing.
To some extent, we're all products of our environment. Bob and Frankie are doing what's expected of them in Silicon Valley. What they are doing is without a doubt, wrong, but there's also the IPO lottery culture behind this that bears a great deal of responsibility as well.
Taking money from a VC really is a Faustian bargain.
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In Batterisers latest video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=622uCZ_pE0w) they claim that using a constant current load is the incorrect way to test the battery because the the load fluctuates in a real device. If a device instantaneously starts drawing high current the battery voltage will drop below the cutoff voltage due to the internal resistance of the battery switching off the device. I'm guessing their theory is the boost converter will help regulate the voltage so it does not drop below the cutoff voltage of the device while the batteries are still good.
(http://i.imgur.com/BqjXtwb.png)
EDIT: or maybe they are using a flux capacitor or some type of over unity device ;)
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Newbie here.
Considering I have a battery connected to a load drawing a constant current of 100mA, and the measured voltage at the battery terminals is 1.3V. So 1.3V *100mA=0.13W.
Now I connect a boost converter, after the battery,let´s say it´s 100% efficient, and the output voltage rises to 1.5V, with the same load drawing 100mA, 1.5*100mA=0.15W.
So the battery will discharge faster, at the same ratio as if was new. Like, when you look at the battery graph of voltage vs time, voltage decreases way faster when new.
Is this wrong or right?
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The response video is a hoot. Did anyone notice that in the GPS test, their ' smoking gun', the device didn't 'fail' like they stated, it just popped up a notification saying the backlight cannot be at full brightness due to the battery level. :palm: They are saying that the device FAILS at this moment.
The GPS is a Garmin Approach G3. I found a review of it here. It says this notification displays when the device's battery level is at 1/2 to 3/4 of full capacity. The device still functions even when it is below 1.1V per cell.
We kept getting a warning screen that the battery power was “too low for full backlight”, even when the battery meter was showing between 1/2 and 3/4 of a charge remaining. ... One really annoying glitch – when the G3 batteries are near the threshold charge level for triggering a warning screen that battery power is insufficient for full backlighting, the device seems to frequently change its mind about whether there actually is sufficient power or not…and thus, it will re-display the warning screen 2 seconds after it just showed it to you and then again…and again. Once the charge level drops comfortably below that threshold, the problem seems to go away.
|O
http://www.criticalgolf.com/reviews/archived-products/garmin-approach-g3-review/ (http://www.criticalgolf.com/reviews/archived-products/garmin-approach-g3-review/)
Yep, it's been discussed on here before, but good to see that review confirm it. Seems they utterly goofed that experiment. And that is their big one, the one that proves they can get 5 times the battery life :palm:
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Newbie here.
Considering I have a battery connected to a load drawing a constant current of 100mA, and the measured voltage at the battery terminals is 1.3V. So 1.3V *100mA=0.13W.
Now I connect a boost converter, after the battery,let´s say it´s 100% efficient, and the output voltage rises to 1.5V, with the same load drawing 100mA, 1.5*100mA=0.15W.
So the battery will discharge faster, at the same ratio as if was new. Like, when you look at the battery graph of voltage vs time, voltage decreases way faster when new.
Is this wrong or right?
That is correct. More power is being drawn from the battery = shorter life. It's an inescapable fact. What the Batteriser relies on in this case is being able to operate down to a lower battery voltage and hence use more energy form the battery than the product would normally.
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What the Batteriser relies on in this case is being able to operate down to a lower battery voltage and hence use more energy form the battery than the product would normally.
Which you have proven to be a wrong hypothesis on multiple occasions due to the fact that there is SFA energy left in the battery once it gets down to what most devices have as a cutoff voltage.
They just don't get it... Or maybe they do, thats why they construct videos to avoid the real answer.
Thanks Dave and the rest of the community here for providing sound and scientific education.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-m-7jex88k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-m-7jex88k)
As Dave very correctly pointed out in this video, you don't measure the open circuit voltage. Even I learnt this in Year 10 High School electronics! On one hand Batteroo / Batteriser seem to ignore this fact, yet on the other hand, they rely upon a product's own power meter (which is of course measured under load by the product itself) in a poor attempt substantiate their claims.
I have come to the conclusion long ago regarding the folks at Batteroo: They are either complete liars and are deliberately being deceitful and misleading or they are simply uneducated when it comes to electronics. I think I'm leaning towards the former.
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Busted -> Buttsed
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-789-batteriser-monkey-busted!/?action=dlattach;attach=168567;image)
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This just gave me an idea for a kick starter. Put a magnet in one hand of the monkey and a coil in the other and you have a perpetual self charging clapping monkey battery charger!
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LOL...
Use a rare earth mag to generate more than you put in... over unity...
Race you to the kickstarter... hang on, indiegogo have free money even if the target isn't met... I will use them to attract the suckers...
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Don't touch the monkey's butt.
Or alternately - lets try 240VAC up there - it could be a suitable end to this saga.
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You forgot the following disclaimer:
"No monkeys were harmed in the filming of this video. Howeve we cannot guarantee the same of Probes's Uncle."
We seem to be having two threads here the EEVblog 789 and the EEVblog 779. The EEVblog 789 video links to the EEVblog 779 thread. While someone has started the EEVblog 789 thread.
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Taking money from a VC really is a Faustian bargain.
Only if your product is 100% fraud.
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What the Batteriser relies on in this case is being able to operate down to a lower battery voltage and hence use more energy form the battery than the product would normally.
Which you have proven to be a wrong hypothesis on multiple occasions due to the fact that there is SFA energy left in the battery once it gets down to what most devices have as a cutoff voltage.
Nobody's measured it yet, but... it's probably true that Batteriser extracts more overall energy from batteries.
OTOH the math says you'll get a shorter battery lifetime as a result.
Those two statements aren't incompatible.
Batteroo is obviously promoting the first one but everybody else should be looking at the second.
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Poor monkey! Take care of his butt! Look for some anal damage, maybe he's going to need some vet care!
It's funny they are so academic and show less and worse TE than yours!
Nice video, they have no way to lie anymore with false claims. Despite of that, stupid groupthink is an infinite resource!
Here's a product idea:
1. Research to make a device that can convert stupidity and lies into energy.
2. Make a Kickstarter for that product.
3. Tons of profit!
The monkey battery charger seems a funny idea too.
Are you going to make a nice t-shirt if this? It would be cool!
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.Are you going to make a nice t-shirt if this? It would be cool!
Now that would make a good crowd-funding project... lots of subscribers waiting on here!
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Here's a product idea:
1. Research to make a device that can convert stupidity and lies into energy.
You would be lucky to get five percent efficiency.
Convert the other direction would get 100% for sure.
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Nobody's measured it yet, but... it's probably true that Batteriser extracts more overall energy from batteries.
OTOH the math says you'll get a shorter battery lifetime as a result.
Those two statements aren't incompatible.
Batteroo is obviously promoting the first one but everybody else should be looking at the second.
The instructions should say only to use it once the product is already failing...but if the cutoff is low enough, users will quickly notice exactly how much extra life they get, and that it's not anywhere near 800%.
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If a device instantaneously starts drawing high current the battery voltage will drop below the cutoff voltage due to the internal resistance of the battery switching off the device.
I have a great idea for a kickstarter - the batterthinger! It's a battery sleeve made of capacitors bidirectional energy stasis devices! It boasts 99.99+% efficiency, and the ability to magically smooth out those pesky current spikes, to make old products with leaked capacitors work again for a short while! Money please.
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Hi Dave,
These people live from the fact that stupidity is the largest renewable resource available to mankind.
I am afraid that they will not be willing to admit all they do is a hoax until somebody comes up and charges them
for fraud. The ultimate test is near anyway: After the stuff appears on the market the monkey with the batteriser in it will definitely give up way earlier than the monkey without batteriser. Repeat the same for the remote control, the GPS, ... you chose. And then, the game is over. So, keep calm and relax. Thruth will have its way ...
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How many people would buy a t-shirt of Dave's "MONKEY UNDER TEST" diagram?
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You can't leave this lone, can you? :D
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I'd prefer if it said "Now where did I leave those probes??" or something similar under the monkey.
McBryce.
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That monkey thing reminds me of one scene from the movie I have seen long time ago... Don't know why... Maybe it's because the product is just as stupid as the movie. ;D
https://youtu.be/O09K8EmURhM?t=23s (2:56)
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Has anyone pointed out the problems with the Indiegogo-Campaign to Indiegogo directly?
The policy for campaigns prohibits misleading statements btw.
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The study cited by Batteriser found a statistical relationship between the 10-Ohm loaded voltage after 30s and the capacity (see pg 6).
http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf (http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf)
They don't even mention the open-circuit voltage, probably because it has no material correlation with remaining capacity.
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The "prof" mentions it here
https://vimeo.com/137229582
I haven't finished watching it yet.
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Has anyone pointed out the problems with the Indiegogo-Campaign to Indiegogo directly?
The policy for campaigns prohibits misleading statements btw.
A few people have complained, including me.
All you get is a stock reply message:
Hi there,
Thank you for sharing your concern with us. At this time, the campaign is under review to ensure that it adheres to our Terms of Use (http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms (http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms)). We will follow up with you if we have any further questions.
So what happens now? We will include the information you have provided along with all other information at our disposal in our review of the campaign. In some cases, we will contact the campaign owner to have them edit their campaign and it will remain on our platform. If the project doesn't follow our rules, we may remove the campaign. We may also restrict the campaign owner's future activities on Indiegogo.
To protect our users' privacy, we're unable to share the action we take. At Indiegogo, we take the trust and safety of our community very seriously, and we greatly appreciate your patience and understanding throughout this review process. To learn more about Indiegogo’s Trust & Safety effort, please visit: www.indiegogo.com/trust (http://www.indiegogo.com/trust)
Please note that you do not need to contact us again. Doing so would create a new ticket and prolong the process. Thank you again for taking the time to get in touch with us and for helping to keep Indiegogo a safe and secure platform.
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Has anyone pointed out the problems with the Indiegogo-Campaign to Indiegogo directly?
The policy for campaigns prohibits misleading statements btw.
A few people have complained, including me.
All you get is a stock reply message:
It is pointless. I did complain to far worse campaigns which were obvious scams (free energy), and got the same stock message. I guess unless something is illegal, like selling drugs, they don't care.
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I like the "PRO" tag on their vimeo channel :D
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It didn't took them long to go and drop 500-ish dislikes on Dave's video.
Man, those guys are trying hard to defend their crap.
I'm sure if they were honest about their product, they wouldn't be in this mess.
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It didn't took them long to go and drop 500-ish dislikes on Dave's video.
500? Oh, how embarrassing.
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It didn't took them long to go and drop 500-ish dislikes on Dave's video.
500? Oh, how embarrassing.
Whoever purchased the dislike package should complain. Yesterday that video had 16 down-votes, and today 515. That's one short.
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I went back and looked at Dave's other batteriser-related videos and all were downvoted to oblivion. I had to counteract all that. Thumbs up on all those videos
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It didn't took them long to go and drop 500-ish dislikes on Dave's video.
500? Oh, how embarrassing.
Whoever purchased the dislike package should complain. Yesterday that video had 16 down-votes, and today 515. That's one short.
Maybe it's not too late to ask for a refund?
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$140 to buy 500 dislikes....
Why would anyone bother? :-DD
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LMAO!
They bought dislikes on my video! :-DD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuaA-rUBmEc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuaA-rUBmEc)
It explains the random, fake profiles subscribing to me the other day!
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LMAO!
They bought dislikes on my video! :-DD
No reputable company would do this. Probably a "fan" did it, not affiliated with Batteroo :)
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LMAO!
They bought dislikes on my video! :-DD
No reputable company would do this. Probably a "fan" did it, not affiliated with Batteroo :)
Who buys dislikes on a video that only had 900 views to begin with, I guess it shows that the video was the truth!
On a totally unrelated note, I guess I have many Vietnamese viewers who don't like my video... all at the same time! :-DD
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Perhaps their next model mk2 will require no battery, get even more energy from your none battery.
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Perhaps their next model mk2 will require no battery, get even more energy from your none battery.
No it will just nee a potato!
The potatoriser!
Approved by GlaDOS
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Who buys dislikes on a video that only had 900 views to begin with, I guess it shows that the video was the truth!
On a totally unrelated note, I guess I have many Vietnamese viewers who don't like my video... all at the same time! :-DD
You have to post a screen shot of that!
There is proof they are buying comments, and mostly likely views, and now thumbs down on other videos. Sad.
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Here you go, proof that someone bought dislikes on my Batteriser videos on the 24th August, out of Vietnam.
Note the number of dislikes vs views.
Can't get data on my most recent video because the stats lag.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=168821;image)
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That's sad.
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For anyone who has a Batteriser related video, please post the same screen shots if you have been subjected to a load of thumbs down. I'd like to use it in a video.
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More proof.
Exactly the same date and county as the other video but on my original video this time, with a fresh spate of dislikes the other day.
Never happened before on any of my 800+ videos.
Truly sad.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=168823;image)
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I don't understand.
why is it possible to have more dislikes than views?
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I don't understand.
why is it possible to have more dislikes than views?
Views require loading the video, dislikes only the page.
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I don't understand.
why is it possible to have more dislikes than views?
Views require loading the video, dislikes only the page.
but I would think it'd be a logical choice to have required you to watch the video to choose
then again, the web rarely makes logical choices.
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Now this is going too far:
Batteriser (I don't care if it's their BS claimed "fan page") are accusing me of, well, read it for yourself:
:rant:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-779-how-to-measure-product-battery-cutoff-voltage/?action=dlattach;attach=168825;image)
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"For an innovative product that nobody has tested"
:-DD
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proof that someone bought dislikes on my Batteriser videos on the 24th August, out of Vietnam.
Perhaps they feel their Monkey God was offended?
All of a sudden many Vietnamese speak English...
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why is it possible to have more dislikes than views?
Because they don't play the video enough for Youtube to register a view.
When you pay a company to buy dislikes (or likes) they farm it out to people who open the link and then hit like/dislike and then close it and they collect their commission.
Youtube is very fussy about what constitutes a view, so they have complex algorithms for that. Not so (or nearly as much) for thumbs.
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Not so (or nearly as much) for thumbs.
This entire part needs revamped. I routinely get cause you watched this video suggestions, even ones I thumb down, from the same YTer, :palm: |O
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Not so (or nearly as much) for thumbs.
This entire part needs revamped. I routinely get cause you watched this video suggestions, even ones I thumb down, from the same YTer, :palm: |O
I see. I'm not sure why they didn't just tack the like/dislike system on top of their view system
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:phew: no comments or visit from vietnam on my blog. What I don"t speak about the batteriser on it?
I think I should put something... :)
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:phew: no comments or visit from vietnam on my blog. What I don"t speak about the batteriser on it?
I think I should put something... :)
I wonder if we all put a video shaming batteriser on each of our own youtube channels, will the Vietnamese start hitting that dislike button? That will surely drain all their funding.
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:phew: no comments or visit from vietnam on my blog. What I don"t speak about the batteriser on it?
I think I should put something... :)
I wonder if we all put a video shaming batteriser on each of our youtube channels, will the Vietnamese start hitting that dislike button? That surely will drain all their funding.
Won't drain the funding much but will make someone in Vietnam very happy and be good evidence against them.
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"For an innovative product that nobody has tested"
:-DD
Yeah man, because, you know, boost converters who knows about them, right? :-DD
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It didn't took them long to go and drop 500-ish dislikes on Dave's video.
drop^^^^buy 500-1000 dislikes
if anything Dave should report it to YT.
edit: well Im retarded, reporting to Google haha, that never works. Google was smart enough to insulate itself from any consumer contact (something they paid out of their ass in a EU penalty already, and will probably pay even more soon)
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:phew: no comments or visit from vietnam on my blog. What I don"t speak about the batteriser on it?
I think I should put something... :)
I'm thinking of making a batteriser video now. I don't want to miss out.
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"For an innovative product that nobody has tested"
:-DD
Yeah man, because, you know, boost converters who knows about them, right? :-DD
Didn't you know, their R&D budget and years of experience surpass that of: Analog Devices, Texas Instruments, Maxim, Intersil, ON Semi.. combined. :-DD
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Didn't you know, their R&D budget and years of experience surpass that of: Analog Devices, Texas Instruments, Maxim, Intersil, ON Semi.. combined. :-DD
You forgot the masters of DC/DC converters...Linear
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Who buys dislikes on a video that only had 900 views to begin with, I guess it shows that the video was the truth!
On a totally unrelated note, I guess I have many Vietnamese viewers who don't like my video... all at the same time! :-DD
You have to post a screen shot of that!
There is proof they are buying comments, and mostly likely views, and now thumbs down on other videos. Sad.
Why you no like me Vietnam!
I guess I have to wait and see where my 250 other dislikes came from :-//
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... I had to stop watching their last one after 9 minutes because the amount of the stupidity and BS gave me a headache .. They guy claims to have 500 patents and goes and uses a Volt axis to plot a current curve!!! Then uses that support his claim .. The Y axis is volts axis you idiot .. You can't plot a constant current curve on it then use the area under the incorrectly plotted curve to represent power!!! Anyone with basic electrical knowledge knows power= V*I, that guy not only ignored that to support his claims but had the nads to put it on video for everyone on this earth to see ...
Actually, here is how it goes. Have you noticed battery charge is usually given with an mAh value ? So you just multiply a constant value of mA by time in hours to get the charge energy in the battery. :clap:
Unfortunately, the formula can't work because, as they showed in the video, current isn't constant (no better explanation is needed) 8)
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... I had to stop watching their last one after 9 minutes because the amount of the stupidity and BS gave me a headache .. They guy claims to have 500 patents and goes and uses a Volt axis to plot a current curve!!! Then uses that support his claim .. The Y axis is volts axis you idiot .. You can't plot a constant current curve on it then use the area under the incorrectly plotted curve to represent power!!! Anyone with basic electrical knowledge knows power= V*I, that guy not only ignored that to support his claims but had the nads to put it on video for everyone on this earth to see ...
Actually, here is how it goes. Have you noticed battery charge is usually given with an mAh value ? So you just multiply a constant value of mA by time in hours to get the charge energy in the battery. :clap:
Unfortunately, the formula can't work because, as they showed in the video, current isn't constant (no better explanation is needed) 8)
Yes, that was the subtly in that video which he didn't bother explaining. But as you said, multiplying mAh by time is just so wrong. If you look at battery datasheets, the mAh capacity highly depends on discharge current. In a boost converter as the battery voltage decreases, current will have to increase to maintain constant power at the output.
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why is it possible to have more dislikes than views?
Because they don't play the video enough for Youtube to register a view.
When you pay a company to buy dislikes (or likes) they farm it out to people who open the link and then hit like/dislike and then close it and they collect their commission.
Youtube is very fussy about what constitutes a view, so they have complex algorithms for that. Not so (or nearly as much) for thumbs.
IIRC the view count is recorded on the (many) video servers that they have (the *.googlevideo.com ones) , spread out over a wide area to improve bandwidth, and only totaled back to the accounting server when they have the time to/periodically. Likes/dislikes aren't recorded on the video servers.
As for why it's coming from Vietnam, probably because the people there are poor enough that paying them to like/dislike/view videos all day is profitable.
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Who buys dislikes on a video that only had 900 views to begin with, I guess it shows that the video was the truth!
On a totally unrelated note, I guess I have many Vietnamese viewers who don't like my video... all at the same time! :-DD
You have to post a screen shot of that!
There is proof they are buying comments, and mostly likely views, and now thumbs down on other videos. Sad.
Why you no like me Vietnam!
I guess I have to wait and see where my 250 other dislikes came from :-//
It's all gone weird now!
My 136 dislikes from Vietnam has decreased to 103 now... and the USA has apparently disliked the video 208 times....
While the stats page shows 436 dislikes, the video page only shows 401...
There is also a message that says:
"Data for August 31 is incomplete. The issue is being investigated."
iiiinteresting.... me thinks youtube knows something is amiss!
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Dave did it WRONG(at least somehow) & Batteriser too
Just my towo censt:
i watched the boring bateriser second reply and think dave did in fact miss the point.
The ESR *Does* matter and the PSU doesn't have it. It won't help you to determine "usefull battery life"
the whole case falls appart into :
claim 1.) cutoff voltage
technically you can measuere the cutoff voltage with a lab PSu with no ESR. That is perfectly right. But it is not (closely) related to battery life. It's just the terminal voltage the product stops working as designed.
claim 2.) ESR does not matter
This is WRONG because a high ESR will ruin your battery life. In "digital" gadgets current spikes will make the *terminal* voltage set off the cutout detector earlier.
This would be not affecting the monky or a flashlight but the poin&shoot cam or the gps.
to supress the (harmfull) current transients a boost converter *may* help (at a cost). A fat bypass cap or L/C Filter may also do the job (maybe even better).
claim 3) the availabele energy is the area under the constant power curve
Dave claims it is the area under the curve in constant power discharge (not quite right but near enough)
The batteriser response claimed that it would be a0 "rectangular block" with the 1.6V flat top. this is not the case. I think they are mixing input and output voltage over const current.
You can't bypass the internal voltage drop at the ESR.
i think:
To be nit picking: The max extractable energy would be the the energy in a minimum current discharge over a long period of time (to avoid heating it in the ESR. P=I^2RSER)
For practical reasons it would be the curve under the rms-power/time when the device is operated. The more current smoothing, the better. (the power requiremnts of most gadgests are not constant but if so (like a flashlight), we coud think of a boost converter that matches input impedance with battery impedance as done in solar step-up converters)
hm, this kinda get some reigious war isn't it?
BTW: is "Open Terminal Voltage" and State-of-Chare related? From the electrocemistry point of view i would expect that the open terminal voltage is constantant.
Is the recovery time of the terminal voltage (when the load drops to zero) related to battery health or state of charge or something else?
Conlusion:
I think what really ruins your day are those current spikes that cause premature tripping the coutoff voltage.
I have one of these "well designed" garmins that where in the video and (MiMH) batterys are failing exactly on this case. When the garmin rejects them i can still discarge the "drained" batterys for several mAh in my battery monitor at low currents.
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It's all gone weird now!
My 136 dislikes from Vietnam has decreased to 103 now... and the USA has apparently disliked the video 208 times....
Yep, mine too. The Veitnam ones are now showing negative numbers.
Something is happening
I do know that my video was forwarded inside Google.
There is also a message that says:
"Data for August 31 is incomplete. The issue is being investigated."
Same here.
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to supress the (harmfull) current transients a boost converter *may* help (at a cost).
A boost converter with an energy accumulator (capacitor) in it would definitely help, but:
a) The batteriser doesn't have one.
b) People who design battery-powered gadgets know about this problem. Bypass capacitors are EE 101. If you bought a gadget that suddenly shuts down, turns back on perfectly, suddenly shut down again after 2 minutes use... etc., you'd take it back to the shop as faulty. There would be a recall.
The batteriser response claimed that it would be a0 "rectangular block" with the 1.6V flat top. this is not the case. I think they are mixing input and output voltage over const current.
It is the case for a very specific class of devices (constant current). OTOH:
a) That class of devices is a bad choice for use with a Batteriser. Boosting the input voltage means they use more power, overall battery life will be shorter with Batteriser than without it.
b) None of the devices shown in Batteriser videos so far are constant current - that argument is just there to mislead people into thinking it applies to more gadgets than it really does.
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to supress the (harmfull) current transients a boost converter *may* help (at a cost).
A boost converter with an energy accumulator (capacitor) in it would definitely help, but:
a) The batteriser doesn't have one.
How do you know this? Usually a boost converter has one.
b) None of the devices shown in Batteriser videos so far are constant current - that argument is just there to mislead people into thinking it applies to more gadgets than it really does.
Just curious, what devices are constant current devices? I can only think of something like a LED flashlights with a very inefficient linear constant current regulator (a constant current boost converter would result in non-constant current for the battery).
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A boost converter with an energy accumulator (capacitor) in it would definitely help, but:
a) The batteriser doesn't have one.
How do you know this? Usually a boost converter has one.
There will be a capacitor to smooth out the ripple. I doubt it will be big enough to smooth out big dips in voltage when the battery can't supply enough current to keep up (as shown in their video).
b) None of the devices shown in Batteriser videos so far are constant current - that argument is just there to mislead people into thinking it applies to more gadgets than it really does.
Just curious, what devices are constant current devices? I can only think of something like a LED flashlights with a very inefficient linear constant current regulator
Yep. Anything with a linear voltage/current regulator.
More common than your flashlight is something like an LM7805 voltage regulator. The LM7805 outputs 5V independently of the input voltage. A resistive load attached to an LM7805 will draw a constant current (Ohm's law).
Excess voltage is converted into heat. Raising the input voltage (eg. With a batteriser) will simply produce more heat.
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Right, a linear voltage regulator with a resistive load (and e.g. a CPU which runs all the time would be on average a constant resistive load at constant voltage) would be a constant current device, too. Which commercially available device uses something like the good old LM7805? Even the Gameboy from 1986 uses an interesting looking DIY switched-mode power supply:
http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electronics/schematics/computer/pictures/gameboypower.gif (http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electronics/schematics/computer/pictures/gameboypower.gif)
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Right, a linear voltage regulator with a resistive load (and e.g. a CPU which runs all the time would be on average a constant resistive load at constant voltage) would be a constant current device, too. Which commercially available device uses something like the good old LM7805? Even the Gameboy from 1986 uses an interesting looking DIY switched-mode power supply:
http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electronics/schematics/computer/pictures/gameboypower.gif (http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electronics/schematics/computer/pictures/gameboypower.gif)
403 Forbidden! Gotta go up one directory and manually find that gif
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403 Forbidden! Gotta go up one directory and manually find that gif
Works here, copy:
http://i.imgur.com/iTDi49g.gif (http://i.imgur.com/iTDi49g.gif)
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403 Forbidden! Gotta go up one directory and manually find that gif
Once you do that the link works... :-//
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...
to supress the (harmfull) current transients a boost converter *may* help (at a cost). A fat bypass cap or L/C Filter may also do the job (maybe even better).
In this case it's probably just a software change: be tolerant of "short" or very infrequent voltage dips below 1.1V before bringing up the warning screen/dimming the backlight.
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Which commercially available device uses something like the good old LM7805?
Arduino?
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An Arduino is a devboard and doesn't come with a battery holder. I mean a consumer device, like the Garmin GPS.
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Dave, do you plan to do a teardown of probes the monkey?
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An Arduino is a devboard and doesn't come with a battery holder. I mean a consumer device, like the Garmin GPS.
This is why putting this factoid as #1 in the batteriser video was misleading...if there even is such a device, almost nobody will have it. Batteriser acts as if it's a general case.
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Dave, do you plan to do a teardown of probes the monkey?
Probes will be a battery holder with the 2 moulded in brass contacts, 2 fairly thin wires leading from there to a gearbox using a cheap 3V DC motor and a power switch. Gearbox will have a mixture of gears inside, probably made from stamped steel and brass, or from a few plastic gear assemblies, reducing the motor shaft speed down to 1 RPM or so, and driving some cranked shafts that are used to clap the cymbals together, move the body up and down and finally to drive the small whistle that makes the noise. Not exactly complex, though to get it all together after you have it apart will be moderately difficult. Probably the same gearbox as used in many other "toys" to get the reciprocating motion, though there they might have speed control either using a variable resistor ( resistance wire wound around a piece of wire, with a resistance of around 5R total) or via a small COB unit with various pulsation patterns.
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Probably you are right and it is all mechanical. When the voltage drops, it gets slower, so no electronics like a 1 bit microcontroller controlling some solenoids.
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No, just a motor. That's why it work with almost dead batteries.
Alexander.
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It's all gone weird now!
My 136 dislikes from Vietnam has decreased to 103 now... and the USA has apparently disliked the video 208 times....
Yep, mine too. The Veitnam ones are now showing negative numbers.
what about the Venezuela/Czech/Latvia ones? Those were also part of the bot/PR agency network. Were those also cancelled?
-1 usually means someone clicked thumbs whatever, and later clicked it again cancelling his action.
Something is happening
I do know that my video was forwarded inside Google.
Nice!
Dave, do you plan to do a teardown of probes the monkey?
How dare you! Sacrilege!!1
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So who's the audience on these Batteriser videos? 99.99% of Dave's audience already understands what he's talking about.
If Dave's trying to deter people from investing in this concept or buying this stuff, his approach probably isn't the best. Non-electronic people are going to spend thirty seconds and leave just feeling uncertain... at best.
Batteriser has posted enough content that it could be used as more effective ammo against them.
For example:
1. Point out that they were claiming +800%, now just +80%. PCworld, CNN, etc all still have those +800% claims even though their website and CF page no longer does.
2. Take the Apple keyboard and repeat their results. Sure the meter would go up to 100% with a SMPS, but you can show that you'll only get maybe 1% more life... not +80%.
3. Illustrate that such a device is only useful when product design is poor. Buy a Garman GPS and repeat the latest test with an ultra efficient SMPS. If it does work as they describe, you could show how it is NOT well designed. Then you could show the other twenty products on their website DON'T give similar results. i.e. Xbox controller, RC cars, TV remote, Thomas the train toy, Sony BlueTooth speaker, flashlight, monkey, etc.
4. They installed the Batteriser's on fresh batteries with the Garman GPS test. How about doing the same thing with low current devices to show that, due to the quiescent current of a SMPS, the battery's last less time depending on how much current is being drawn.
I think those real-world examples would better illustrate the point. Especially item #3, in which the tear-down would be more applicable to your core audience. Title it "How not to design a battery powered product".
tldr?
This thing only appears useful when a product draws a very high current pulse at very low duty cycles with a poorly designed low battery level notification. So basically why not just hook a SMPS up to the other 99% of modern devices to show typical experiences?
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I'm not sure that the sort of video we should expect from Dave.
He is here to explain things to help people that want to learn something learn it, teardown stuff and use science, not marketing videos.
Dave is not here too only for debunking Bateroo claims, he also have to work on the normal channel videos, like the mailbag, teardown etc.. things that takes a lots of time (plus he may work on some of his project..)
The only things I see he could do is a timelapse of two time the same product one with normal battery, the other with a batteriser, but wait these things are not available yet.
And about using another voltage booster, Batteroo and all other people may say "yes that's nice but that's not a batteriser so it maybe not true".
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It's all gone weird now!
My 136 dislikes from Vietnam has decreased to 103 now... and the USA has apparently disliked the video 208 times....
Yep, mine too. The Veitnam ones are now showing negative numbers.
what about the Venezuela/Czech/Latvia ones? Those were also part of the bot/PR agency network. Were those also cancelled?
-1 usually means someone clicked thumbs whatever, and later clicked it again cancelling his action.
Not cancelled... changed.... Vietnam is now 61 dislikes, USA is still 208, while the video itself still shows 400+ dislikes.
The graph itself shows 300 dislikes on the 31st, but negative 42 on the 1st...
I think there's more dislikes still being added to it, while the fake dislikes are being removed/disappearing.
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Just when you thought they can't go any lower, they pay poor people to dislike youtube videos critical of the batteriser.:-DD :palm:
They are so sad and pathetic.
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Hopefully Google will "get it" and start clearing out the dislikes. As Batterizer continues reducing their claims, It would be really fun if we could get mjlorton and Mike's electric stuff plus any other regular You Tubers to chime in..Then it would be no longer Batterizer busted, rather Batterizer hammered into the ground. Someone should contact the US patent office and let them know the patent is not really a original. since anyone can make the circuit.
"If Dave's trying to deter people from investing in this concept or buying this stuff, his approach probably isn't the best. Non-electronic people are going to spend thirty seconds and leave just feeling uncertain... at best."
Batteriser has posted enough content that it could be used as more effective ammo against them.
I don't think I cut and pasted that correctly... so here: apus « Reply #532 on: Today at 07:29:00 AM » commented above.
There may be a limited number of EEBlog fans, However, there is an old concept in sales. (before the internet) that each person knows at least 250 other people so be careful how you treat that 1st person.
Also, someone mentioned way back somewhere that they had ordered a couple of the Batterizers just to demonstrate what Dave has done on his own YouTube channel...Last I looked Batterizer is still raising funds and all those different YouTube videos are very likely the same single prototype. So don't count on ever getting one. Perhaps all us forums members can kick in to help recover his loss. I estimate at about 21,998 members and guessing his loss will about $10 or $20 (the product plus shipping and all)
If we each contribute about 1 -100th of a penny he can recover his loss. I don't to dis him..I really hope he get some and does his video.I am just saying that Dave and all of us can make a difference and save all the non electronics fans from losing their shirt..A $2.50 each some non-electronics enthusiast could easily buy 10 or 20 or more of them.
This all just makes me laugh. And face it. This may the best laugh all summer!
Cheers.
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I'm not sure that the sort of video we should expect from Dave.
He is here to explain things to help people that want to learn something learn it, teardown stuff and use science, not marketing videos.
He's not doing much of that in these videos. Mostly just repeating himself and ranting in a dramatic way. Stuff that turns away viewers who didn't already know this stuff. It mostly just feels like view/subscriber bait.
Dave is not here too only for debunking Bateroo claims, he also have to work on the normal channel videos, like the mailbag, teardown etc.. things that takes a lots of time (plus he may work on some of his project..)
Dave does whatever Dave wants to do.
The only things I see he could do is a timelapse of two time the same product one with normal battery, the other with a batteriser, but wait these things are not available yet.
That's all he could do?
How about pointing out "+800%" changed to "+80%"? Couldn't Dave easily replicate the GPS test on the Garmin with a generic SMPS to simply show that, although he gets the same 5x battery life increase, it's just because of poor design? I think replicating the Apple keyboard test with a generic SMPS to show it only increases capacity by a small percentage is pretty easy and perfectly illustrates that the battery gauge simply measures voltage.
Actually all of those things would probably take less effort than what he's done and have a larger impact on people who didn't know this stuff already. .........Although something is telling me those aren't really his goals here.
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Probably you are right and it is all mechanical. When the voltage drops, it gets slower, so no electronics like a 1 bit microcontroller controlling some solenoids.
Correct. Almost certainly all mechanical.
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So who's the audience on these Batteriser videos? 99.99% of Dave's audience already understands what he's talking about.
If Dave's trying to deter people from investing in this concept or buying this stuff, his approach probably isn't the best. Non-electronic people are going to spend thirty seconds and leave just feeling uncertain... at best.
Of course.
My videos are not intended to deter people from investing, they are not designed for the average public. They are cater to my technical fan base, my subscribers, many of whom asked to explain the Batteriser.
This thing only appears useful when a product draws a very high current pulse at very low duty cycles with a poorly designed low battery level notification.
There is zero evidence that it works on really high current pulse products
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I'll take your word on people requesting the first video.
There is zero evidence that it works on really high current pulse products
There's zero evidence this thing works at all. My statement was based on their most recent video where the 'smart one' attempts to explain how it gets 800% 80% more life.
He claims MOST devices pull a massive surge of current. This massive current surge causes the battery voltage to drop from ~1.3V down to ~1.0V which cause the device to think the battery is dead....
Even if we assume that to be true.... this thing would only be useful for devices that pull massive spikes of current for low duty cycles and have very poorly designed low battery warnings, right?
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He claims MOST devices pull a massive surge of current. This massive current surge causes the battery voltage to drop from ~1.3V down to ~1.0V which cause the device to think the battery is dead....
Even if we assume that to be true....
Don't have to assume, you can do the math:
http://ww2.duracell.com/media/en-US/pdf/gtcl/Product_Data_Sheet/NA_DATASHEETS/MN1500_US_CT.pdf (http://ww2.duracell.com/media/en-US/pdf/gtcl/Product_Data_Sheet/NA_DATASHEETS/MN1500_US_CT.pdf)
A Duracell AA has approx 100mOhms ESR at 1.3V under load.
To get a 300mV drop to 1V you'd need a current spike of 3A over what it already takes, and long enough for whatever battery dropout circuit to latch on (most don't latch)
So plausible, but in practice, any product that is drawing 3A current spikes from a AA battery will be designed with that in mind. Or, like cameras for example, specifies lower ESR rechargeables.
Again,a complete edge-case hand waving scenario.
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There is zero evidence that it works on really high current pulse products
There's zero evidence this thing works at all.
People have seen it working on Apple keyboards.
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I would like to put two mirrors prototype device on the side of a PV cell and sell it on Kickstarter...
Would I get easily 10K$?
That´s a strange way to make money.
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There is zero evidence that it works on really high current pulse products
There's zero evidence this thing works at all.
People have seen it working on Apple keyboards.
"working" as in fooling the battery level indicator, which is all that a boost converter set at 1.5V would do.
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There is zero evidence that it works on really high current pulse products
There's zero evidence this thing works at all.
People have seen it working on Apple keyboards.
"working" as in fooling the battery level indicator, which is all that a boost converter set at 1.5V would do.
Can you picture the lawsuits that may arise from that side-affect? A wedding photographer records entire wedding ceremony. He uses batterisers for (supposed) better battery life. Due to batteriser boosting voltage, the camera never displays low battery alert. Camera dies, file corrupts and never gets saved off. Photographer gets sued.
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There is zero evidence that it works on really high current pulse products
There's zero evidence this thing works at all.
People have seen it working on Apple keyboards.
"working" as in fooling the battery level indicator, which is all that a boost converter set at 1.5V would do.
Can you picture the lawsuits that may arise from that side-affect? A wedding photographer records entire wedding ceremony. He uses batterisers for (supposed) better battery life. Due to batteriser boosting voltage, the camera never displays low battery alert. Camera dies, file corrupts and never gets saved off. Photographer gets sued.
Lawyer's salary boosted by 800%
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Can you picture the lawsuits that may arise from that side-affect? A wedding photographer records entire wedding ceremony. He uses batterisers for (supposed) better battery life. Due to batteriser boosting voltage, the camera never displays low battery alert. Camera dies, file corrupts and never gets saved off. Photographer gets sued.
They never thought this all the way through, that's obvious by now.
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I've never seen an photographer taking only one picture of a particular scene.
There is always the chance to get an bad picture.
And to corrupt a whole storage medium, the photographer needs much bad luck.
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I've never seen an photographer taking only one picture of a particular scene.
There is always the chance to get an bad picture.
And to corrupt a whole storage medium, the photographer needs much bad luck.
Wedding photographers do video now
EDIT: they do pictures still like always, but most that I see do video montages as part of the package, granted most DSLR's use lipo packs instead of off-the-shelf AA batteries and such, but it's just an example of what all could happen when your device can't estimate capacity remaining due to the SMPS
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Wedding photographers do video now
I'd instantly fire any photographer that showed up with only a video cam.
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I've never seen an photographer taking only one picture of a particular scene.
There is always the chance to get an bad picture.
And to corrupt a whole storage medium, the photographer needs much bad luck.
Wedding photographers do video now
EDIT: they do pictures still like always, but most that I see do video montages as part of the package, granted most DSLR's use lipo packs instead of off-the-shelf AA batteries and such, but it's just an example of what all could happen when your device can't estimate capacity remaining due to the SMPS
This made me think:
DSLR's have a mode to flip the mirror and open the shutter, so you can wipe your sensor. This will only work if your batteries are full, so everything stays open while you are cleaning.
Same thing goes for firmware update's.
And yes, some DSLR (for instance my Pentax K30) can run on AA batteries.
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He claims MOST devices pull a massive surge of current.
Even if we assume that to be true....
Don't have to assume, you can do the math:
The assumption wasn't that Ohms law is correct, rather that MOST products have such poorly designed battery dropout circuits. The Garmin GPS appears to be one of those edge-cases. The half dozen products on their website are not. Makes me wonder how many products they had to test to find one where this worked.
Actually I might be too hard on Garmin. When you think about it, Batteriser is using this GPS device way outside of how it was designed. The batteries are getting hit much harder than normal with the power supply capacitors constantly drained. In typical operation, the system would mostly pull from the caps then go to sleep. Like most people only glance at the device then hike/move/etc.
I'll bet changing that 15second wake-up to 30seconds completely eliminates their results.
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He claims MOST devices pull a massive surge of current.
Even if we assume that to be true....
Don't have to assume, you can do the math:
The assumption wasn't that Ohms law is correct, rather that MOST products have such poorly designed battery dropout circuits. The Garmin GPS appears to be one of those edge-cases. The half dozen products on their website are not. Makes me wonder how many products they had to test to find one where this worked.
Actually I might be too hard on Garmin. When you think about it, Batteriser is using this GPS device way outside of how it was designed. The batteries are getting hit much harder than normal with the power supply capacitors constantly drained. In typical operation, the system would mostly pull from the caps then go to sleep. Like most people only glance at the device then hike/move/etc.
I'll bet changing that 15second wake-up to 30seconds completely eliminates their results.
Their fake results? Did you not see the graph I posted above? (EDIT: oops, I posted that graph in the last page of the debunking thread, not this one--my bad) I got more than 100% more time out of fresh AA's than they did out of identical brand batteries. (duracell) They failed to hit 2 hrs, and I got to 4 hours and had to stop the test due to needing to go to bed, but it was still at 2.55v, 450mv above cutoff, and it was having no problems at all. They apparently either started with dead cells (which might explain why they plotted current instead of voltage, or they stopped the test when they got the screen dimming warning.
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Can you picture the lawsuits that may arise from that side-affect? A wedding photographer records entire wedding ceremony. He uses batterisers for (supposed) better battery life. Due to batteriser boosting voltage, the camera never displays low battery alert. Camera dies, file corrupts and never gets saved off. Photographer gets sued.
They never thought this all the way through, that's obvious by now.
A more dreadful and real scenario is smoke detectors, people might believe using Batteriser will make them more secure as the battery could last longer. But in fact all they've done is disabling the smoke detectors low (or faulty) battery warning. And when/if the detector is triggered by fire/smoke it might not sound the alarm for very long cause the battery doesn't have much 'real' energy left.
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Can you picture the lawsuits that may arise from that side-affect? A wedding photographer records entire wedding ceremony. He uses batterisers for (supposed) better battery life. Due to batteriser boosting voltage, the camera never displays low battery alert. Camera dies, file corrupts and never gets saved off. Photographer gets sued.
They never thought this all the way through, that's obvious by now.
A more dreadful and real scenario is smoke detectors, people might believe using Batteriser will make them more secure as the battery could last longer. But in fact all they've done is disabling the smoke detectors low (or faulty) battery warning. And when/if the detector is triggered by fire/smoke it might not sound the alarm for very long cause the battery doesn't have much 'real' energy left.
That's terrifying. I'm sure there are lots of other applications where this would be either really dangerous or really annoying.
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...
I got more than 100% more time out of fresh AA's than they did out of identical brand batteries. (duracell)
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They apparently either started with dead cells (which might explain why they plotted current instead of voltage, or they stopped the test when they got the screen dimming warning.
In their video at the 1:09 mark they show the screen where they stop. I can't read it. Would you have gotten the same results if you stopped there?
If yes, that's pretty funny. Just by ignoring that warning you could probably get 5x the lifespan. I think that clearly shows how flawed this Batteriser GPS test was.
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In their video at the 1:09 mark they show the screen where they stop. I can't read it. Would you have gotten the same results if you stopped there?
If yes, that's pretty funny. Just by ignoring that warning you could probably get 5x the lifespan. I think that clearly shows how flawed this Batteriser GPS test was.
Someone found the message in the firmware update file and with this information you can guess that it is the same as seen in the video:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg739118/#msg739118 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-%28the-batteriser%29/msg739118/#msg739118)
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I got more than 100% more time out of fresh AA's than they did out of identical brand batteries.
Are you measuring current, read: "burden voltage"? Surely an extra series resistor will have adverse effect.
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I got more than 100% more time out of fresh AA's than they did out of identical brand batteries.
Are you measuring current, read: "burden voltage"? Surely an extra series resistor will have adverse effect.
I am not measuring current for that reason. I'm curious what value shunt they used. 0.1 ohm? I might measure current when I retest this weekend.
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One could produce a special high voltage power supply producing output of several hundreds of volts but just being able to deliver a few microamps. That won't operate the monkey either. So would anyone out there (maybe besides batterizer?) tell me that several hundred volts is not enough to drive the monkey? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/Smileys/default/facepalm.gif (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/Smileys/default/facepalm.gif) Voltage is just voltage but no power. Power is can be seen as something like "Voltage at the presence of n Amperes", so of course you have to draw some current while measuring the operational voltage. And on top of that batteries don't even have some kind of defined Power" they can deliver. Instead of Power it is Energy that a battery has and this means the battery is able to deliver some power for some defined time frame. That automatically means you have to measure the voltage at any given timepoint when the current is drawn by the monkey to get proper values of power, as power is voltage multiplied by actual current at each given point in time..
In the Video with the snail a Manager and vice President, Mr. Roohparvar tries to explain what is going on, he just shows that he not even did understand the proper usage of curves and diagrams nor was he asking his engineers for that. Even my teachers and Professors at Germany were teaching me that of course it has to be the summed up area under the curve! But completely contrary to that Mr. Roohparvar is arguing that you're not just loosing the energy from the area under the curve from the cut-of-point on but tries to tell you it would be the full area of an squared area - not only he can't work with graphs, he seems to confuse voltage, current, and power which are all kind of different things. And, finally, what makes a manager who worked for some "high tech companies" like Western Digital (what do they have to do with batteries anyways?) as expert on physics or measurement methods or proper engineering? Managers just measure one thing, that is revenue!
I hope everyone now has understood how to properly measure all kinds of power supplies and batteries are just one kind of power supplies. That arguing from batterizer is starting to get more and more ridiculous and I can't help but trying to fight the wrong measurement methods by using proper engineering definitely now is kind of riding dead horses. Batteroo is completely learning-resistent and non informed about proper engineering, otherwise they would clearly show that they would try to defraud their customers by using physical sounding but completely wrong arguments and nonsense to impress with.
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Although I'm getting a bit tired of all the Batteriser nonsense, it does have one positive benefit:
I'm learning a lot about batteries that I didn't even know needed to be taken into account. My textbook mentioned amp-hours and then vaguely touched on internal resistance before completely skipping the rest.
So while all of you electronics veterans are probably bored to tears of all of this battery talk, I like to consider these Batteriser debunking videos to be part of one giant Fundamentals Friday -- which is my favorite EEVBlog segment.
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Ugh... it's awfully sad and sickening that once again a blatant lie of which the only asset is "telling people what they want to hear" is able to raise such an amount of money.
Even 10-year old me a couple of decades ago was able to figure out that batteries not able to power my RC car anymore would still be able to run an IR remote or wall clock for a while - but it didn't take much to understand that the actual energy left was no more than a couple of percent, and could only be used at tiny currents (i.e. the opposite of what his thing would do).
That guy needs his "engineering phd" thrown into a paper shreedder, supposing he actually ever got one.
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I got more than 100% more time out of fresh AA's than they did out of identical brand batteries.
Are you measuring current, read: "burden voltage"? Surely an extra series resistor will have adverse effect.
On a proper test on a product you shouldn't use current measurement because:
a) It's not needed. All that matters is the running time
b) It can have an impact due to burden voltage and other contact and lead resistance etc.
If you do current measurement for some reason then the burden of proof (pun intended) lies on the tester to prove it has negligible effect.
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I got more than 100% more time out of fresh AA's than they did out of identical brand batteries.
Are you measuring current, read: "burden voltage"? Surely an extra series resistor will have adverse effect.
On a proper test on a product you shouldn't use current measurement because:
a) It's not needed. All that matters is the running time
b) It can have an impact due to burden voltage and other contact and lead resistance etc.
If you do current measurement for some reason then the burden of proof (pun intended) lies on the tester to prove it has negligible effect.
Exactly. I hope the irony of Batteroo's constant harping about internal resistance is not lost on anyone considering they're stuffing a much higher value resistance in series with their power source.
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Probes the monkey sighting in the wild....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tAea4oEOvc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tAea4oEOvc)