EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on September 14, 2015, 11:26:47 am
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Dave takes a quick look at the Rohde & Schwarz HMO1002 Oscilloscope at their booth at the Electronex show.
A small, light, fanless, entry level 50MHz mixed signal oscilloscope.
http://www.rohde-schwarz.com.au/en/product/hmo1002-productstartpage_63493-61541.html (http://www.rohde-schwarz.com.au/en/product/hmo1002-productstartpage_63493-61541.html)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvepxIvy45U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvepxIvy45U)
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Interesting. It's striking how the HMO just adds cool features here and there, and is not just another instance of the generic entry level scope that you see from the chinese manufacturers. They're trying to be innovative. I'd love to see a proper review to learn whether they actually succeed, or whether it's all just too gimmicky :)
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Looks very nice. :-+
Would be good to see the logic analyzer in operation - see if it has as many cool features as the analogue side.
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I have the HMO1024 (4 Channel) in use almost every day.
The real beauty is the lightweight and the zero noise, as Dave pointed out.
The Menu structure takes some time to get used to but then it becomes very easy to use.
The vertical scale movement is interesting, but I never use it.
Here are some pictures
First one is a comparison to the Agilent 3000 X Series
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My main tool is HMO1524 and it is awesome. Apart from obvious features it is the only scope I know that can beep on trigger.
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It's silent and there's very little wasted screen space. Just those two things make it stand out from the really cheap scopes.
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If a barebone unit still has the same performance and functionality perks of this display unit, in my opinion that seems to draw a much more consistent line of the added value that a big brand entry level oscilloscope brings to the table. I don't feel the same when comparing the entry level offers from Keysight, LeCroy and Tek.
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Here are 9 short videos about the HMO1002.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHZdP5WdWi8&list=PLKxVoO5jUTlv4JueA5c9fF5x71OLSBL0T&index=14 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHZdP5WdWi8&list=PLKxVoO5jUTlv4JueA5c9fF5x71OLSBL0T&index=14)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhw2wt9KLXc&index=15&list=PLKxVoO5jUTlv4JueA5c9fF5x71OLSBL0T (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhw2wt9KLXc&index=15&list=PLKxVoO5jUTlv4JueA5c9fF5x71OLSBL0T)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8JNzHdHA10&index=16&list=PLKxVoO5jUTlv4JueA5c9fF5x71OLSBL0T (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8JNzHdHA10&index=16&list=PLKxVoO5jUTlv4JueA5c9fF5x71OLSBL0T)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHZEi82-pAs&list=PLKxVoO5jUTlv4JueA5c9fF5x71OLSBL0T&index=17 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHZEi82-pAs&list=PLKxVoO5jUTlv4JueA5c9fF5x71OLSBL0T&index=17)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GoWSvqJT2I&list=PLKxVoO5jUTlv4JueA5c9fF5x71OLSBL0T&index=18 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GoWSvqJT2I&list=PLKxVoO5jUTlv4JueA5c9fF5x71OLSBL0T&index=18)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InGHruSXMY8&index=19&list=PLKxVoO5jUTlv4JueA5c9fF5x71OLSBL0T (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InGHruSXMY8&index=19&list=PLKxVoO5jUTlv4JueA5c9fF5x71OLSBL0T)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHFiFToSrFU&index=20&list=PLKxVoO5jUTlv4JueA5c9fF5x71OLSBL0T (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHFiFToSrFU&index=20&list=PLKxVoO5jUTlv4JueA5c9fF5x71OLSBL0T)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVGg0C9f5FY&index=21&list=PLKxVoO5jUTlv4JueA5c9fF5x71OLSBL0T (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVGg0C9f5FY&index=21&list=PLKxVoO5jUTlv4JueA5c9fF5x71OLSBL0T)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-IeRYQgkwI&list=PLKxVoO5jUTlv4JueA5c9fF5x71OLSBL0T&index=22 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-IeRYQgkwI&list=PLKxVoO5jUTlv4JueA5c9fF5x71OLSBL0T&index=22)
I think it's does also pretty good (quick) on mask testing for a scope in this class.
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These machines are designed by Hameg , a long standing oscilloscope (and other test equipment) manufacturer in Germany that was acquired by R&S a couple of years ago.
My first scope was a hameg 604 60MHz scope with delayed timebase. I bought that new in 1984. It was later replaced by a PM3350 analog/digital scope from Philips in 1989.
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My first scope was a hameg 604
Mine was a 307 (http://www.hameg.com/downloads/man/HM307_english.pdf). It still works...
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The DPO performance is rather poor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRhOhhtDi8Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRhOhhtDi8Y)
I do not like shared knobs for all channels. But as a little fanless scope, it is hard to beat. It is also one of the few scopes that are made in Europe.
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I like the way the probe clips onto the test points.
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If a barebone unit still has the same performance and functionality perks of this display unit, in my opinion that seems to draw a much more consistent line of the added value that a big brand entry level oscilloscope brings to the table. I don't feel the same when comparing the entry level offers from Keysight, LeCroy and Tek.
LeCroy does make great scopes (in some cases even the best) but I wouldn't touch their entry-level Series (WaveAce) with a barge pole.
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Lol.
Dave's really struggling not to diss his beloved Rigols. I wonder what he'd do with a full-on R&S ? They're seriously underappreciated (and I'm saying that as a long-time HP fan).
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These things are aimed at educational market aren't they? Hence the 50khz function generator, helpful graphics. Not sure the price schools would pay however. They are really tiny in person. I like that they are fanless.
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Are the illuminated button so bright as shown on the video?
My first scope also was a Hameg.
Alexander.
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Looks pretty good indeed - I started looking into the price of this thing - but features like I2C decoding are going to cost you extra. Base price is indeed what Dave's saying - but that's for the base model. The connectivity options will set you back 250 Euro's; the decoding 300 Euro's. Still a very nice scope though..
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Looks pretty good indeed - I started looking into the price of this thing - but features like I2C decoding are going to cost you extra. Base price is indeed what Dave's saying - but that's for the base model. The connectivity options will set you back 250 Euro's; the decoding 300 Euro's. Still a very nice scope though..
Yep. The price soon starts to mount up. A decent configuration (300 Euro for a logic analyzer cable??) will soon go up to $2000 or more. That's expensive. (Don't know if the options are hackable or not... or if you can make your own cable)
I'd swap you one for my DS1054Z but I don't think I'd buy one with my own money.
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Pushable would be nice but for horizontal position use the arrow buttons next to it.
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My first scope was a hameg 604 60MHz scope with delayed timebase. I bought that new in 1984.
These old Hamegs were the best. My brother still has a HM203 in prime condition, never had a problem in almost 40 years.
I upgraded from a HM1005 (~1990) to a HMO722 (2Gs, 70MHz) a couple of years ago, never looked back. These scopes may be a bit more expensive than the competition from Rigol, Siglent, etc. but they are worth every penny. Let's see how long this one lasts. ::)
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It is time for Dave to evaluate & review an R&S HMO 3054
+1. However, any scope from the HMO3000 series would do, I guess.
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I have a Hameg HM-108 from 1964. A HM-1004 that I most times use for a Tek P6042.
My daily used scope is a HMO-3522, I have one LA unit. My scope has a fan (I think ) but it is very silent. I really love this scope, it was love at first sight. I have it 3 years now.
I have no complains. The menu's and operation is perfect for me. I never need the manual (it came with a paper manual )
The thing I do not understand is why my 1004 and HMO do not have a component tester.
As a reference, I was the very unhappy owner of a 100 MHz Rigol (the first model)
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I do not like that small 640×480 6.5 inch screen. I prefer the 800×480 8.5 inch wide screen of my DSOX2002A. Well, many scopes (Tektronix, Rigol, Keysight, Siglent, some of GW Instek) nowadays have a wide LCD.
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I thought that I posted that yesterday, but the Hameg brand remind me the first Scope I played with, it was a HM307 (I say it was, but as far as I know it still exist and works!) it's my dad that bought it long time ago "because it was the only one he could afford" but it's not a bad one in fact, it's a low BW one, but it's really small (for a cro) and Hameg is not a bad brand at all :)
It's just a one channel scope, 10MHz if i'm correct, but for homebrew back in the 80s it's not that bad :) What is funny, it that even if it's not a dual channel one, you still be able to do a X-Y display as the Ext Trigger BNC can be used to control the horizontal deflector :)
I need to get it :D
(surprisingly, it seems that there is a model with the same reference that have the CT, but infortunately, as far as I know the one my dad have does not have this option :( )
And look some of them was even Made In France!!!! Cocorico!!
(http://www.radiomuseum.org/forumdata/users/1945/Hameg_HM307/HM307_4.jpg)
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This was definitely an interesting of equipment and review!
Axel.
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I do not like that small 640×480 6.5 inch screen. I prefer the 800×480 8.5 inch wide screen of my DSOX2002A.
You have to consider that the menu on the DSOX2002A is static (as far as I know). On the Hameg, it can be hidden. Furthermore, the Hameg has 12 (instead of 10 on the DSOX2002A) horizontal divisions which I really like.
I'd be curious to measure the actual area for traces (not the whole screen) on both and compare.
Here's the HMO722: 12 x 8 div, 124 x 84 mm
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the menu on the DSOX2002A is static
Yes, that is a disadvantage. But you still have more LCD space, although it is not used for waveforms.
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the menu on the DSOX2002A is static
Yes, that is a disadvantage. But you still have more LCD space, although it is not used for waveforms.
I'm still curious how big the area on the DSOX2002A is... ::)
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I'm surprised that oscilloscopes are not being somewhat displaced by "headless" scopes that could connect to a PC or smartphone, at least for hobby use. I guess the cost of making a dedicated device is not much higher, and you have the benefit of a dedicated device that's not subject to the whims of Microsoft, Apple, et al...
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I'm surprised that oscilloscopes are not being somewhat displaced by "headless" scopes that could connect to a PC or smartphone, at least for hobby use.
A compact box with physical controls for at least the primary functions is usually much more convenient than having a full blown PC on the bench (and smartphones as scope, really?).
USB scopes exist, but the cheap ones suck and the better ones are made for industrial applications and are pretty expensive (much more so than a standalone scope with the same core specs).
...and you have the benefit of a dedicated device that's not subject to the whims of Microsoft, Apple, et al...
Not really, considering that many scopes like the Keysight DSOX are running Windows CE.
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I'd be curious to measure the actual area for traces (not the whole screen) on both and compare.
Here's the HMO722: 12 x 8 div, 124 x 84 mm
The DSOX2k/3k has an 8.5" screen with (if I remember right) a waveform area of roughly 148mm x 89mm, which is some 30% more than for your HMO. Considering that both displays are pretty small by any standard that isn't exctly a massive difference. Plus the HMO gets more waveform information on the screen due to its wider grid.
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IIRC the LED intensity can be lowered (INTENS/PERSIS, LED brightness Low)
I have the HMO15xx - a previous generation.
The front-end noise is very low, lower than the DSOX3xxx series, and the FFT implementation is the best I've ever seen, with bin size and scrolling control, amplitude averagine (in FFT) and a good way of moving the cursors (remember to push the Select and Time/Div buttons in FFT mode for additional functionality).
I'm able to measure down to -115dBm with input terminated in 50Ohm. (TB: 20ms/div, 4Msps, FFT: 64k, 50kHz span), so for <1MHz work this scope rivals a spectrum analyzer for simple work (of course DR is limited to ca. 45dB, but for seeing week signals it's great ).
The Hameg support are quick to answer my snarky complaints regarding lack of good SCPI documentation - and they finally updated their manual.
You can get the full 2Msample data out in about 25s with a python script (1Msample takes 13s) over the USB port (using a standard VCP driver).
The megazoom ASIC in the DSOX series is much more powerful, but R&S/Hameg give a lot more functionality right out of the box, a lower front-end noise, better FFT control. The options are well-priced compared to the competition.
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I'm surprised that oscilloscopes are not being somewhat displaced by "headless" scopes that could connect to a PC or smartphone, at least for hobby use.
There's plenty of people trying but in reality it doesn't work out.
I guess the cost of making a dedicated device is not much higher, and you have the benefit of a dedicated device that's not subject to the whims of Microsoft, Apple, et al...
TFT screens are cheap. The expensive part is the A/D converters, the analog front end, the probes, the power supply, etc.
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Lets stop the headless scope discussion in this thread - (because it's way off topic for the HMO1002).
I want to hear more feedback on this HMO series, because this is an interesting alternative to Rigol, Singlent etc at the lower end.
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I'd be curious to measure the actual area for traces (not the whole screen) on both and compare.
Here's the HMO722: 12 x 8 div, 124 x 84 mm
The DSOX2k/3k has an 8.5" screen with (if I remember right) a waveform area of roughly 148mm x 89mm, which is some 30% more than for your HMO.
With this ratio and 10 x 8 divisions, the grid divisions cannot be square but must be a rather stretched rectangle. Not my cup of tea.