EEVblog #797 - Siglent SDS1000X Review

[tautech]

FYI, none other than the Siglent CEO will be visiting the EEVblog lab in December.
Siglent fanboys can get their questions ready.

Yes this one Dave:

When will a Siglent Spectrum analyser be released and what general specs will it have?

[rf-loop]

FYI, none other than the Siglent CEO will be visiting the EEVblog lab in December.
Siglent fanboys can get their questions ready.

Yes this one Dave:

When will a Siglent Spectrum analyser be released and what general specs will it have?

Do you mean SSA3030
In europe its price is cheap,  around 3950 EUR  Excl. VAT
some specs

[tautech]

FYI, none other than the Siglent CEO will be visiting the EEVblog lab in December.
Siglent fanboys can get their questions ready.

Yes this one Dave:

When will a Siglent Spectrum analyser be released and what general specs will it have?

Do you mean SSA3030

No, there have been whispers of a new model.

[tautech]

Both have advantages and disadvantages. No one can say which is universally better. If know user individual needs then it can tell which one is better for this user.

And so on.

But the list grows....
Individual channel controls
400V channel inputs
and so on...
[...]

Which one and for what CAT rating?

Both vertical input channels, 400V CAT I

As I cited here, the Rigol Manual for the DS1000Z series states:

Chapter 18 Specifications

Maximum Input Voltage (1M?)

Analog Channel: CAT I 300 Vrms, CAT II 100 Vrms, Transient Overvoltage 1000 Vpk With RP2200 10:1 probe: CAT II 300 Vrms

So as far as I understand this, the safety level for mains voltages depends on the selection of the probe switch (1x vs. 10x).

No that's not correct.
And you don't state whose mains voltages, 110 or 230 VAC?

How does this compare to the Siglent?

Good question and a bit of hunting was needed to find all the facts.

From the Siglent PP215 probe spec sheet:
The measurement category of a combination of a PROBE ASSEMBLY and an accessory is the lower of the measurement categories of the PROBE ASSEMBLY and of the accessory.

Further to this; PP215 probe Maximum input is specified as 1:1 300V and 10:1 600V Working voltage (Vp-p)

DSO spec from User manual:
SDS1000X series digital oscilloscopes can make measurements in measurement category I.

Measurement category I is for measurements performed on circuits not directly connected to MAINS. Examples are measurements on circuits not derived from MAINS, and specially protected (internal) MAINS derived circuits. In the latter case, transient stresses are variable; for that reason, the transient withstand capability of the equipment is made known to the user.

I read this to mean I can safely use the SDS1000X series and PP215 supplied probes to 300 V @ 1:1 and 600 V @ 10:1 CAT I.

But I wouldn't, anything over 250V low impedence and my 100:1 probe comes out and that's with any model/brand of scope.

[jhufford]

Great review! made my decisions even tougher...
I would love to see a review of that Siglent SDG2122X arb gen in the video. Maybe make it a "how-to" or "buyer guide" for arb gens.

[Hydrawerk]

Finally I found the user manual. http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/UserManual/SDS1000X_UserManual_UM0101X-E01A.pdf

[Smokey]

FYI, none other than the Siglent CEO will be visiting the EEVblog lab in December.
Siglent fanboys can get their questions ready.

Wow.  There is a company that knows it's target customer.  Good stuff.

[coppice]

both scopes don't give each other much, and which one is the better buy really depends on what you require.

For most people I'd say 4 channels trumps 200Mhz.

Most scopes are only 2 channel, and I don't hear engineers moaning about this too often. Most 4 channels scopes seldom seem to have more than one or two probes plugged in. 4 channels can certainly be very useful at times, but I would put more performance over more than 2 channels in almost every buying decision.

[vk6zgo]

Both the Siglent & the Rigol seem to have problems triggering on an AM signal at the modulating frequency rate,with a bit of "jittering" being evident.
The same problem appears with some analog Oscilloscopes,whilst others seem to have no problem with it.

"Stopping" the display & looking at the saved waveform is obviously not the answer where the modulation needs to be adjusted while you are observing the resultant AM signal.

Luckily,in most cases you will have access to the modulating signal,either from its source or after demodulation,so all you need to do is trigger the 'scope from that.

[rf-loop]

Both the Siglent & the Rigol seem to have problems triggering on an AM signal at the modulating frequency rate,with a bit of "jittering" being evident.
The same problem appears with some analog Oscilloscopes,whilst others seem to have no problem with it.

"Stopping" the display & looking at the saved waveform is obviously not the answer where the modulation needs to be adjusted while you are observing the resultant AM signal.

Luckily,in most cases you will have access to the modulating signal,either from its source or after demodulation,so all you need to do is trigger the 'scope from that.

If you look Dave's video starting position 16m50s this part is "just for fun playing". This is perhaps Dave's demonstration about situation when people do not have enough knowledge and experience with oscilloscope and how to set trigger for good trig with AM modulated carrier.  I know Dave can of course do it but some reason here he just want playing like noob who take his first oscilloscope just out from box and then try make as Guinnes record  how fast push and turn knobs and buttons nearly randomly. 

Just set enough holdoff and reject HF from trigger is good starting point for optimum setting for this kind of signal.  But then, situation go much more difficlt or even nearly impossible if there is changing modulation signal level and frequency, example speech or example some special non continuous uniform modulation signal.  If I set SDS1202X trigger for example 3.699MHz carrier and say example 440Hz AM modulation depth 50% there is not any kind of difficult to get rock solid trig for look around 1 or 2 cycle modulating signal cycle horizontally.  Of course when understand how trigger work it is clear there need set holdoff time what is ok with modulating signal frequency and some times also better set trig for  HF reject and perhaps also switch noise reject on.   But, with more difficult situations some times need arrange separate trigger if mod signal is more complex.

[tautech]

If you look Dave's video starting position 16m50s this part is "just for fun playing"......

I know Dave can of course do it but some reason here he just want playing like noob who take his first oscilloscope just out from box and then try make as Guinnes record  how fast push and turn knobs and buttons nearly randomly. 

Yes, I noticed that too, it is his style.

But despite this, now I've got one too, all I want to do is play with it as well.   

[vk6zgo]

Pretty fair comment,rf-loop---pretty much what you have to do with an analog unit.

I found some are considerably more 'fiddly" than others,so if I had to look at an AM waveform with a 'scope I knew to be the "fiddly" type,I usually went straight to the external trigger option.

We weren't strictly speaking supposed to check modulation looking at the envelope.
The preferred way was the "trapezoid pattern,with the modulating waveform on the "X" axis,but the envelope was always good for a quick check.

On one occasion,we received a Modulation Monitor back for service because it was "reading too high"
We sent off a replacement,but a "quick check" showed that the "faulty" meter & the"scope envelope closely agreed ,so the Boss sent us off on a "roadtrip".

It turned out that the local Phone techs had done a lineup on a +8dBm tone instead of a +16dBm one,so the transmitter was overmodulating wildly on programme material.

You should have seen what that envelope looked like!------ eeek!   

[Siglent America]

Great review! made my decisions even tougher...
I would love to see a review of that Siglent SDG2122X arb gen in the video. Maybe make it a "how-to" or "buyer guide" for arb gens.

Jack Ganssle now has a SDG2000X (SDG2042X I believe) and will doing a video review on it soon. He usually pushes his videos to YouTube as well.

[poida_pie]

the "$499 US scope" sells here for $1022 AU plus 10% GST

http://www.triotest.com.au/shop/siglent/3818-siglent-sds1102x-digital-oscilloscope-100mhz-1gsas-2-channel.html
(the url reads incorrectly but points to the 200MHz model)
hmm, that is over $1,100 tax paid AUS for me since I can never claim GST exemption.

I paid $550 (including GST) for my DS1054Z only about 7 or 8 months ago.
There is no comparison with respect to price.

Just to underline how things are getting expensive here in AUS, the Rigol DS2072A is now $1,247 AUS + GST
or $1,371 AUS tax paid, so Trio have priced the Siglent a bit below the DS2072A for our local market as claimed.

It still seems a bit expensive for what you get.
The Rigol DS1054Z has 4 channels, a good 2mV/div front end and options can be enabled via serial numbers.
The Siglent has a nice low noise front end, a very good at 0.5mV/div but only two channels plus ext trigger.
Still the pick of the litter for a hobbiest seems to me to be the Rigol DS1054Z.

[rf-loop]

the "$499 US scope" sells here for $1022 AU plus 10% GST

http://www.triotest.com.au/shop/siglent/3818-siglent-sds1102x-digital-oscilloscope-100mhz-1gsas-2-channel.html
(the url reads incorrectly but points to the 200MHz model)
hmm, that is over $1,100 tax paid AUS for me since I can never claim GST exemption.

I paid $550 (including GST) for my DS1054Z only about 7 or 8 months ago.
There is no comparison with respect to price.

Just to underline how things are getting expensive here in AUS, the Rigol DS2072A is now $1,247 AUS + GST
or $1,371 AUS tax paid, so Trio have priced the Siglent a bit below the DS2072A for our local market as claimed.

It still seems a bit expensive for what you get.
The Rigol DS1054Z has 4 channels, a good 2mV/div front end and options can be enabled via serial numbers.
The Siglent has a nice low noise front end, a very good at 0.5mV/div but only two channels plus ext trigger.
Still the pick of the litter for a hobbiest seems to me to be the Rigol DS1054Z.

Try to capture >> 400000 acquisitions/s speed sequence with DS1000Z   = just nothing.

Stop DS1000Z and look if you find up to 80000 last normal speed acquisitions (waveforms)  from history buffer.

Do mask test with DS1000Z and run signal what give result = fail. How many pass/fail test it can do in one second? For what it can use?

[Karel]

Do mask test with DS1000Z and run signal what give result = fail. How many pass/fail test it can do in one second? For what it can use?

Usually not a valid point for hobbyists. Personally, I should never buy a 2-channel DSO.

[poida_pie]

Karel, I was just going to say the same thing (mask test more a production environment thing)
4 channels, SPI,I2C means more to what I see as current hacking/experimentalist/learning people than
the very fast acquire to memory.
rf-loop is correct: the up to 80,000 waveforms always present in memory is a good thing. But to get that it will cost the loss of
serial decode and 4 channels. You can turn on the Rigol - admittedly hobbled - memory functions to get a good amount of pre and post trigger data
but while using it, you can not use serial decode.

[tautech]

Do mask test with DS1000Z and run signal what give result = fail. How many pass/fail test it can do in one second? For what it can use?

Usually not a valid point for hobbyists. Personally, I should never buy a 2-channel DSO.

Quite right, but with the pass/fail specs of this DSO it will be quite attractive for production checks and those that might need this won't want 4 channels.

Horses for courses.

[rf-loop]

Do mask test with DS1000Z and run signal what give result = fail. How many pass/fail test it can do in one second? For what it can use?

Usually not a valid point for hobbyists. Personally, I should never buy a 2-channel DSO.

I have used higher and lower end oscilloscpopes for hobby and for professional needs over 40 years.
In my case it can count my fingers or something like it when I have really needed 4 channel oscilloscope.
In some rare case I have also "wanted" use 4 channel scope but many times just wanted...  also  there is very rare models what can give 4 channels with separate independent triggers. Some times it is nice to look 4 channels but what you see if these signals are not time synch with each others.

Oscilloscope need select starting from user needs. 

Today also I need 4 channel scopes but far far away how frequent I need one or 2 channel.

I have also repaired scopes and I have seen many many 4 channels scopes, mostly CH3 and 4 are like new, nearly like never touched. Perhaps one reason is also that professionals do not use things just for fun, things are used just for needs and as fast and short time as possible, only if it give money. Most time it looks like that hobbyist and specially who do not have so much experience want all stufss and features example in oscilloscope without any idea if he need these or not, because he do not know what he need. So he easy think, this and that is "nice to have if perhaps some times need".  Professional mostly know what he do and what he need do.. he can more easy specify what features instruments need have and what things are "so what".

If one tell to me  that he need 4 channels, I can never say you do not need.
If he ask me if he need 2 or 4 channel then I can try estimate it with himeself.

[tautech]

rf-loop is correct: the up to 80,000 waveforms always present in memory is a good thing. But to get that it will cost the loss of serial decode .......

Rubbish.

When the X series DSO's are fully spec'ed and in mass production they will have Decode, AWG and MSO.
The enable buttons for these options are already on the front panel.

[Fungus]

Do mask test with DS1000Z and run signal what give result = fail. How many pass/fail test it can do in one second? For what it can use?

Usually not a valid point for hobbyists. Personally, I should never buy a 2-channel DSO.

Yep. I really couldn't care less about that feature.

4 channels...? 100% necessary for me.

Horses for courses.

This. The two market segments (hobby vs. production test) have almost zero overlap, it's a completely pointless debate.

The best we can do is act like engineers and start an opinion poll. That will give us a percentage that we can look at and say 'mmmm' while stroking our metaphorical beards (or real beard if you have one). Maybe we can do that in the 'test gear' forum.

Edit:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscopes-how-many-channels-do-you-need/

[tautech]

Do mask test with DS1000Z and run signal what give result = fail. How many pass/fail test it can do in one second? For what it can use?

Usually not a valid point for hobbyists. Personally, I should never buy a 2-channel DSO.

Yep. I really couldn't care less about that feature.

4 channels...? 100% necessary for me.

Horses for courses.

This. The two market segments (hobby vs. production test) have almost zero overlap, it's a completely pointless debate.

The best we can do is act like engineers and start an opinion poll. That will give us a percentage that we can look at and say 'mmmm' while stroking our metaphorical beards (or real beard if you have one). Maybe we can do that in the 'test gear' forum.

Edit:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscopes-how-many-channels-do-you-need/

As a hobbyist I quite accept your point of view.
As a reseller I have had inquiry for production testing DSO's.

Again:
Horses for courses.

[Karel]

In my case it can count my fingers or something like it when I have really needed 4 channel oscilloscope.

Well, in our case, we use three or four channels half of the time.
We design circuits that uses adc's connected to an mcu. We use spi, uart, i2c. Ofcourse you can check/debug with two channels but, really?

[poida_pie]

rf-loop is correct: the up to 80,000 waveforms always present in memory is a good thing. But to get that it will cost the loss of serial decode .......

Rubbish.

When the X series DSO's are fully spec'ed and in mass production they will have Decode, AWG and MSO.
The enable buttons for these options are already on the front panel.

I was looking at the choice between a DS1054Z with serial decode and this Siglent as shown here that lacks it.

For sure Siglent will provide serial decode, etc., and then the cost goes up. No longer the very affordable ("only $499") DSO then.
If Siglent are positioning these instruments for production and design then fine, time to compare them with other than the excellent value Rigol DS1054Z.

This is my main point here: for my $500 or $600 AUS I think you still get a lot of scope from Rigol. The Siglent as tested by EEVblog will cost a bit more again when optioned up with serial decode, MSO etc.

[Siglent America]

Gentlemen,

I think there may be some confusion here.

Serial Decode option comes installed on the SDS1000X's with a 30-use trail period. The option can be purchased for permanent use for $169 (here in North America). It supports I2C, SPI, and UART/RS-232.

So this option comes already installed (trial use) and is available for purchase. We just received our first license for a customer today.
Steve