EEVblog #797 - Siglent SDS1000X Review

[EEVblog]

In a world first Dave takes an initial first impressions look at the new Siglent 1000X Series 200MHz entry level oscilloscope. What do you get for US$499?
How does it compare to the Rigol DS2000 Series?
http://www.triotest.com.au/shop/siglent/3816-siglent-sds1102x-digital-oscilloscope-100mhz-1gsas-2-channel.html
http://siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1369&T=2&tid=1

[Hydrawerk]

Thank you for the review.

[soren]

It exploits the fact that Rigol doesn't have a product to fill the gap between the USD 400 DS1000Z and the USD 840 DS2000A. Not much to see other than that.

[Fungus]

It exploits the fact that Rigol doesn't have a product to fill the gap between the USD 400 DS1000Z and the USD 840 DS2000A. Not much to see other than that.

200MHz at $650 is "nothing to see"?

Plus ... if people can hack/unlock the signal generator with then it's a killer device. They'll sell truckloads of them.

[max666]

So what's the Waveform Update Rate on the Siglent, if you turn on the second channel?

[soren]

200MHz at $650 is "nothing to see"?

The -3 dB bandwidth of the $400 DS1000Z (same total sample rate as the new Siglent) is about 170-180 MHz, so no.

Plus ... if people can hack/unlock the signal generator with then it's a killer device. They'll sell truckloads of them.

Noone has done much software hacking on Siglents, so that is highly speculative, whereas with the Rigols you can buy one and rely on the hack being available. (I did remove a few capacitors from my 20 MHz Siglent SDS1022DL, which improved its rise time to about 1.3 ns.)

So again, it slots in in between the DS1000Z and DS2000A and that's why some people will buy it.

[Fungus]

200MHz at $650 is "nothing to see"?

The -3 dB bandwidth of the $400 DS1000Z (same total sample rate as the new Siglent) is about 170-180 MHz, so no.

I heard the measured bandwidth was about 135Mhz (on EEVBLOG form)

Nobody's measured the actual bandwidth of this Siglent yet...

Scratch that, it's in the video (I hadn't got to that part yet!).  Dave measured it at 300MHz, although the 1GHz sample rate starts to show itself.

Plus ... if people can hack/unlock the signal generator with then it's a killer device. They'll sell truckloads of them.

Noone has done much software hacking on Siglents, so that is highly speculative

Time will tell...

[Wuerstchenhund]

In a world first Dave takes an initial first impressions look at the new Siglent 1000X Series 200MHz entry level oscilloscope. What do you get for US$499?
How does it compare to the Rigol DS2000 Series?

Nice review, thanks for that! It looks like the SDS1000X shares the firmware with the SDS2000 (v2 firmware which is still beta).

BTW, when you showed the acquisition modes you stated that ERES is the typical boxcar averaging. It isn't:
http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/appnotes/differences_between_eres_and_hires.pdf

ERES is one of the things Siglent has adopted from LeCroy, and (assuming it has been implemented correctly) it's nice to see that available on an entry-level scope.

Now, if you could do a similar review for that SDG2000X you had there... 

[Hydrawerk]

In stock. http://www.siglent.eu/sds1102x-s.html

[Fungus]

In stock. http://www.siglent.eu/sds1102x-s.html

719 Euro (+TAX) for the 100MHz version?

That's a long way from the $500 Dave mentioned in the video.


Edit: My bad, that's with signal generator... 719 Euro with SigGen, 475 Euro without.

Still...only 2 channels and 50% more expensive than a DS1054Z.  I'm not very tempted. You'd have to really really need that little bit of extra bandwidth.

[6581]

I find these reviews/previews very interesting, especially with comparison to similarly specced models. Interesting to see differences in user interface, practical performance (not just numbers on spec sheet), build quality and implementation of key features. I'm newbie to electronics and receiving my very first oscilloscope next week (DS1054Z) and Dave's reviews and recommendations weighted a lot in decision making.

[max666]

...
Still...only 2 channels and 50% more expensive than a DS1054Z.  I'm not very tempted. You'd have to really really need that little bit of extra bandwidth.

A little bit of extra bandwidth, without getting a higher sample rate. I don't think there are lots of things you can do with the SDS1000X, that you can't do with the DS1054Z (maybe I'm biased).

[Fungus]

A little bit of extra bandwidth, without getting a higher sample rate.

The math works out about the same. It has double the bandwidth but half the channels of the DS1054Z.

eg.

DS1054Z has 1GHz sample rate shared between 4 channels - 2.5 samples per wave at 100Mhz.

This one has 1GHz sample rate shared between 2 channels - 2.5 samples per wave at 200MHz.

With only one channel switched on the DS1040Z has a higher ratio of samples per wave, yes, but this one kept going up to 300MHz.

[PA0PBZ]

Re: the colour coding for the probes being the wrong colour... The correct colour is already on the probe Dave...
(Not sure about the other probe, you didn't show that one)

[tautech]

In a world first Dave takes an initial first impressions look at the new Siglent 1000X Series 200MHz entry level oscilloscope. What do you get for US$499?

Dave, the 200 MHz version is US$659
The 100 MHz version is US$499.

Please edit the OP, it is misleading.

http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-db.aspx?id=1369&tid=1&T=2

[tautech]

A little bit of extra bandwidth, without getting a higher sample rate.

The math works out about the same. It has double the bandwidth but half the channels of the DS1054Z.

eg.

DS1054Z has 1GHz sample rate shared between 4 channels - 2.5 samples per wave at 100Mhz.

This one has 1GHz sample rate shared between 2 channels - 2.5 samples per wave at 200MHz.

With only one channel switched on the DS1040Z has a higher ratio of samples per wave, yes, but this one kept going up to 300MHz.

From rf-loop, the SDS1202X measured -3.0 dB BW is ~275 MHz:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-x-series-oscilloscopes-and-arb-waveform-generators/msg758661/#msg758661

[Wuerstchenhund]

A little bit of extra bandwidth, without getting a higher sample rate. I don't think there are lots of things you can do with the SDS1000X, that you can't do with the DS1054Z (maybe I'm biased).

Well, the Siglent has some nice features found in LeCroy mid-range/high-end scopes (like ERES instead of boxcar averaging, or being able to switch interpolation modes independent of the timebase setting, which I don't think you can do on the Rigol DS1000z), but yes, both scopes don't give each other much, and which one is the better buy really depends on what you require.

Plus the level of maturity of the SDS1000X firmware is still unknown.

[Fungus]

both scopes don't give each other much, and which one is the better buy really depends on what you require.

For most people I'd say 4 channels trumps 200Mhz.

Plus the level of maturity of the SDS1000X firmware is still unknown.

I wouldn't rush to buy one. Dave managed to find a some "turn it off and on again" bugs just in the making of this video...

[Bud]

500uV/ on rigol 2000 is BULLSHIT. Did i say it loud enough?

B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T

 Do not even think of it as an advantage over other scopes. It is a x2 digital zoom off of 1mV/ . Nothing else happens when you set the switch to 500uS/, no any changes in the front end chain, zero, i have measured and can prove it. The bastards even did not bother to interpolate as they zoom in. They just stretch the display vertically. that is it. 

I do not know about Siglent.

[Wuerstchenhund]

both scopes don't give each other much, and which one is the better buy really depends on what you require.

For most people I'd say 4 channels trumps 200Mhz.

Not necessarily. There are many tasks that don't require more than two channels, and where the extra bandwidth can be a real advantage.

Plus the level of maturity of the SDS1000X firmware is still unknown.

I wouldn't rush to buy one. Dave managed to find a some "turn it off and on again" bugs just in the making of this video...

Indeed, and Siglent isn't exactly known for bring products to market with mature firmware (i.e. the SDS2000). However, Rigol and the DS1000z had their own fair share of issues, and if the thread on this forum can be believed then it seems some are still waiting to be resolved.

I'd say it's not as clear cut as you think it is.

[nbritton]

The -3 dB bandwidth of the $400 DS1000Z (same total sample rate as the new Siglent) is about 170-180 MHz, so no.

I heard the measured bandwidth was about 135Mhz (on EEVBLOG form)

The table below is from one of the earlier threads on the 1000Z, I'm assuming these measurements were taken using a BNC cable, because the calculated system bandwidth using a 10X probe is 83 MHz.

1000Z Bandwidth:
Frequency      Amplitude
  10 MHz          0.0 dBm
100 MHz         -1.5 dBm
150 MHz         -3.0 dBm
393 MHz        -10.0 dBm
447 MHz        -20.0 dBm

[nbritton]

The whole SDS1000X series has no option for a logic analyzer, I have no idea why they put the cutout for it on the front panel.

Both the Rigol 2000A and the Siglent SDS1000X spec a 8" TFT LCD display at 800 x 480 pixel resolution.

The 1 GSa/s and 14 Mpts does not impress me. Furthermore, the hack-ability of the Siglent gear is in question, in theory they can be hacked but no one has actually managed to do it yet.

[EEVblog]

Plus ... if people can hack/unlock the signal generator with then it's a killer device. They'll sell truckloads of them.

I've heard that Siglent have taken extra measures to ensure that's not going to happen.
I give it a week once they hit the shelves

[EEVblog]

Still...only 2 channels and 50% more expensive than a DS1054Z.  I'm not very tempted. You'd have to really really need that little bit of extra bandwidth.

And/or the bigger screen and extra vertical controls.

[EEVblog]

Dave managed to find a some "turn it off and on again" bugs just in the making of this video...

Yes, I had only bee playing with it for the few hours it took to shoot this video, and I wasn't systematically trying everything.

[tautech]

The whole SDS1000X series has no option for a logic analyzer, I have no idea why they put the cutout for it on the front panel.

Neither did the Siglent SDS2000 series when it was first released, the demo models sent to dealers was an early HW version and later versions DO all have an MSO port and MSO capability as a free trial option until it is puchased and permanently enabled.

Will the SDS1000X series be available in the future with MSO? 

The 1 GSa/s and 14 Mpts does not impress me. Furthermore, the hack-ability of the Siglent gear is in question, in theory they can be hacked but no one has actually managed to do it yet.

With new beta FW for the SDS2000 series there will be additional memory depth available as an option and will Siglent enable an additional memory depth option for the SDS1000X series too? 
It wouldn't surprise me at all if they did.

[Lightages]

For me, the DS1054Z is still a better buy. The Siglent seems too buggy at this point, improperly matched sampling vs bandwidth means it is not that much better than the DS1054Z (hacked), and only two channels. So $100 less gets you 4 channels and basically the same useful bandwidth once you use two channels.....

[rf-loop]

The whole SDS1000X series has no option for a logic analyzer, I have no idea why they put the cutout for it on the front panel.

Do you think it is clever to pay new injection mold costs just after they do MSO1000X. or do separate front and/or back panel for every model. Yes they do if you pay it.
Have you ever asked how much it take money (total costs including all) when you do whole process for new mold.  There is one shot price and then there is of course price for every single the front panel they do. If you have ever designed any production you know that there need really heavy reason for do new mold.

[Wuerstchenhund]

With new beta FW for the SDS2000 series there will be additional memory depth available as an option and will Siglent enable an additional memory depth option for the SDS1000X series too? 
It wouldn't surprise me at all if they did.

I don't think we'll see that on the SDS1000X. On the SDS2000 it seems they replaced the original firmware (v1) which was a bug fest they were incapable of fixing with a port of the firmware for their new SDS1000X scopes (v2), and in the process were probably able to free up some memory which they can now offer as another option (which quite frankly should have been a free upgrade for all SDS2000, considering how long their users had to live with the shitty firmware!). It's certainly not something they designed into the scope from the start. The SDS1000X was designed with the firmware it runs on, so there won't be any similar memory savings.

I guess we'll see when the teardowns arrive, which should be able to establish how much memory there is in these things.

[rf-loop]

500uV/ on rigol 2000 is BULLSHIT. Did i say it loud enough?

B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T

 Do not even think of it as an advantage over other scopes. It is a x2 digital zoom off of 1mV/ . Nothing else happens when you set the switch to 500uS/, no any changes in the front end chain, zero, i have measured and can prove it. The bastards even did not bother to interpolate as they zoom in. They just stretch the display vertically. that is it. 

I do not know about Siglent.

I know Siglent. It is full true 500uV/div from analog and also without forced displayed BW reject or any internal hidden BW rejection... just tiny fast measurement and it looks like -3dB point related to 1MHz ref is around over 250MHz (perhaps same 275MHz what these other V/div bands what I have measured ). (I have not yet made enough tests for tell it more accurate. It is more tricky to measure than higher V/div settings.

[rf-loop]

With new beta FW for the SDS2000 series there will be additional memory depth available as an option and will Siglent enable an additional memory depth option for the SDS1000X series too? 
It wouldn't surprise me at all if they did.

I don't think we'll see that on the SDS1000X. On the SDS2000 it seems they replaced the original firmware (v1) which was a bug fest they were incapable of fixing with a port of the firmware for their new SDS1000X scopes (v2), and in the process were probably able to free up some memory which they can now offer as another option (which quite frankly should have been a free upgrade for all SDS2000, considering how long their users had to live with the shitty firmware!). It's certainly not something they designed into the scope from the start. The SDS1000X was designed with the firmware it runs on, so there won't be any similar memory savings.

I guess we'll see when the teardowns arrive, which should be able to establish how much memory there is in these things.

Did you note one major change. (and it is Same in SDS1000X !)
Rev 1.0 there was history as fast segmented memory together.
I do not put my old table about speeds and memory here.

Rev2.0 have all different just in this place.
History "mode" is not anymore at all this fast segmented memory acquiring.
History mode is now always on bacround and it is still up to 80000 acquisitions but now it works like history FIFO and you stop scope and you can see what have happend in last times and you can search waveforms (how much, depending memory and speed settings) But it works now in bacround and speed is just what is current normal visible wfm/s speed. Not anymore  max up to ~400kwfm/s (measured).
If we calculate how much there is memory needes in best (worst) case it is much and this memory need also be available quite fast.

Rev 2.0 have separate fast "segmented" memory acquisition. (even faster than Rev1.0)
It can up to 500kwfm/s (segments) speed, depending memory and timebase settings. But now maximum amount of segments is 1024. (Previously up to 80000)

This, same, is also in SDS1000X. It also have same max 1024 segments in segmented (sequence as it read in upper menu) and also in SDS1000X its max "up to" speed is 500kwfm/s (but limited 1024 segments)

 

Perhaps this change in SDS2k affect something in memory side what is now available for this option?





---------------------------
Other things related to video

on the video it looks like Dave measure burst speed when he measure normal wfm/s update rate. He did not measure average wfm/s speed what is bit lower and perhaps more recommended for claim wfm/s speed if we do not tell we are talking highest short burst speeds, and this is in SDS1000X over 70kwfm/s. (average speed need include display refresh cycle or other  system time gaps in acquisition and it include in "up to" 60kwfm/s speed. It is continuing average even if measure every trig events over second or hour.)

FFT cursors.
Just select cursors source math or channels.. and both tracking cursors may have separate source.
FFT there can use splitted or not splitted window but also there can me YT- splitted for YT zoom (this zoom have not relation to FFT, FFT use fixed samples.



Edit: segments max count is up to 80000 in SDS1000X after new  FW 1.1.2.1.1

[Helix70]

both scopes don't give each other much, and which one is the better buy really depends on what you require.

For most people I'd say 4 channels trumps 200Mhz.

Not necessarily. There are many tasks that don't require more than two channels, and where the extra bandwidth can be a real advantage.

Plus the level of maturity of the SDS1000X firmware is still unknown.

I wouldn't rush to buy one. Dave managed to find a some "turn it off and on again" bugs just in the making of this video...

Indeed, and Siglent isn't exactly known for bring products to market with mature firmware (i.e. the SDS2000). However, Rigol and the DS1000z had their own fair share of issues, and if the thread on this forum can be believed then it seems some are still waiting to be resolved.

I'd say it's not as clear cut as you think it is.

Horses for courses. If you are primarily working on sub 100 Mhz digital stuff (like me), the 1054Z with 4 channels is a no brainer. I probe the power supply, a couple of inputs and a debug output and I have my 4 channels, and I thank the lord for those extra channels most days.

If, however, you are looking at a modulated signal at or above 100 Mhz, the Siglent is going to cream the Rigol for that application. If you need above 200Mhz, keep on going to the Rigol 2000 series, and so on, and so forth. If you can upgrade the siglent to the sig gen by hacking, then I agree, there will be a standard choice of 2 DSOs for entry level, 4 channels or free sig gen, but Dave suggested this not the case, at least right now.

If you are looking for the cheapest swiss army knife DSO, the DS1054Z is hard to beat.

[Fungus]

improperly matched sampling vs bandwidth means it is not that much better than the DS1054Z

The bandwidth:sampling ratio is exactly the same as a DS1054Z. 

The only reason the signal started to distort in the video is because Dave was hitting it with a 300 MHz signal with both channels turned on.

Try a 150MHz signal into a DS1054Z with all four channels turned on and you'll get exactly the same thing.

[Fungus]

The -3 dB bandwidth of the $400 DS1000Z (same total sample rate as the new Siglent) is about 170-180 MHz, so no.

I heard the measured bandwidth was about 135Mhz (on EEVBLOG form)

1000Z Bandwidth:
Frequency      Amplitude
150 MHz         -3.0 dBm

It probably varies a bit from unit to unit (and cable).

Let's call it 150Mhz for the sake of argument.

[Fungus]

If you can upgrade the siglent to the sig gen by hacking, then I agree, there will be a standard choice of 2 DSOs for entry level, 4 channels or free sig gen, but Dave suggested this not the case, at least right now.

...except they don't cost the same. The Siglent is 50% more than a DS1054Z.

Maybe you can have 4 channels+separate 25MHz signal generator for the same price.

[tautech]

If you can upgrade the siglent to the sig gen by hacking, then I agree, there will be a standard choice of 2 DSOs for entry level, 4 channels or free sig gen, but Dave suggested this not the case, at least right now.

...except they don't cost the same. The Siglent is 50% more than a DS1054Z.

A flaw in your maths maybe.....

AFAIK the DS1054Z is US$399 and the SDS1102X is US$499, excuse me but that difference is not 50%.

[Fungus]

...except they don't cost the same. The Siglent is 50% more than a DS1054Z.

A flaw in your maths maybe.....

AFAIK the DS1054Z is US$399 and the SDS1102X is US$499, excuse me but that difference is not 50%.

Oh, I see... you meant the 100MHz SDS1102X version. Yes, that costs less.

If you can unlock the bandwidth and signal generator then it will be an interesting choice.

[rf-loop]

...except they don't cost the same. The Siglent is 50% more than a DS1054Z.

A flaw in your maths maybe.....

AFAIK the DS1054Z is US$399 and the SDS1102X is US$499, excuse me but that difference is not 50%.

Oh, I see... you meant the 100MHz SDS1102X version. Yes, that costs less.

If you can unlock the bandwidth and signal generator then it will be an interesting choice.

If look BW 1000Z and SDS1102X is comparable instead of 4 channel in Z.

But other side...  Z do not have real 500uV/div, not even DS2000.
Z do not have even 1mV/div true, not even 2mV/div

Then, Z do not have sequence mode where it can acquire up to 500000 waveform (segment)/s speed not even near.
Then Z mask test is total junk. It is totally slow if mask test result is fail.
Then Z do not have full speed backround history where X stores laast up to 80000 acquistions to history buffer all time when scope run (exept if sequence mode selected)..
Then Z do not have selectable Sinc (only it can select on/off when 4 ch in use. And it really do not work even there right. (first principle is that it need draw sinc through real unmanipulated raw sample points but here it loose reality... documented in other threas)
Then Z have smaller display. (specially example for me reading Z display is pain.)

Both have advantages and disadvantages. No one can say which is universally better. If know user individual needs then it can tell which one is better for this user.

And so on.


Attached images.

Signal and signal path is exactly same for both scopes. All is same as possible, even selfcal done just before for both.  Because Rigol did not have 50ohm inputs I use also with Siglent same external feed thru terminator.
Signal is same ans quite good quality from HP E4421B
Test made with 1mV/div because both have it.
It need also note when look noise. Part of noise is related to BW and Siglent analog BW is much more than Rigol DS1kZ.
And Rigol advertise this with many kind of superlatives about low noise...
Note with images. True display physical size in Rigol is 7" and Siglent 8"

Images tell many things.
Also sidenote, look trigger point.

[Orange]

Plus ... if people can hack/unlock the signal generator with then it's a killer device. They'll sell truckloads of them.

I've heard that Siglent have taken extra measures to ensure that's not going to happen.
I give it a week once they hit the shelves

Bad marketing strategy if you ask me.  The RIGOL DS2072A can be unlocked to 300MHZ, plus memory, plus all decoders for 891 euros including 21% TAX. And on top of that it is a 2Gs/s system.

Mind you that in Europe the SDS1202X is offered for 756 euros including TAX. This still a 1Gs/s system, and no decoding options....And probably no ways to hack the thing.
http://www.siglent.eu/sds1202x.html

[AF6LJ]

Not bad for an entry level scope.

[Hydrawerk]

Can that tiny readout font (Vpp, Freq) be enlarged?

[Lightages]

improperly matched sampling vs bandwidth means it is not that much better than the DS1054Z

The bandwidth:sampling ratio is exactly the same as a DS1054Z. 

The only reason the signal started to distort in the video is because Dave was hitting it with a 300 MHz signal with both channels turned on.

Try a 150MHz signal into a DS1054Z with all four channels turned on and you'll get exactly the same thing.

Hmmm, this seems to be what I am saying and you arguing my point for me. The DS1054Z performs (basically) the same as the Siglent with TWO channels, apples to apples. With one channel, the Sigent does have some advantage. With four channels the Siglent isn't even in the picture! So IMHO, $100 more for the Siglent with only the added usable bandwidth in one channel mode vs the option of four channels (lower bandwidth) is not $100 well spent. There are other benefits of course, but TO ME, IMHO, it is not worth it.

[rf-loop]

improperly matched sampling vs bandwidth means it is not that much better than the DS1054Z

The bandwidth:sampling ratio is exactly the same as a DS1054Z. 

The only reason the signal started to distort in the video is because Dave was hitting it with a 300 MHz signal with both channels turned on.

Try a 150MHz signal into a DS1054Z with all four channels turned on and you'll get exactly the same thing.

Hmmm, this seems to be what I am saying and you arguing my point for me. The DS1054Z performs (basically) the same as the Siglent with TWO channels, apples to apples. With one channel, the Sigent does have some advantage. With four channels the Siglent isn't even in the picture! So IMHO, $100 more for the Siglent with only the added usable bandwidth in one channel mode vs the option of four channels (lower bandwidth) is not $100 well spent. There are other benefits of course, but TO ME, IMHO, it is not worth it.

Different needs, different scope is best. Just if take example. If need fast segmented memory acquisition, what is other scope what give max even near 500kwfm/s.

If want feature where when ever you stop scope you can go back up to 80000 normal currently used wfm/s speed acquisitions...  what is other scope what give tjhis...
If you work with low signals...  true 500uV/div full freq band...  it drops out immediately this DS1000Z
Also of course tehre is many opposite things.  There is not universal good oscilloscope.  This is why user need know what he need and what he do not need. Hobbyist think more that he want all because he do not know what he need. Professional may know exatly what is project, what need and what not and he can select scope what have good these things he need and not matter what ever other features are junk or crap or just do not exists. But also this, world is not only black or white.. some professional also may try find equipment what is good for all things what perhaps need some day or just for "nice to have but never use".

[Lightages]

Different needs, different scope is best. Just if take example. If need fast segmented memory acquisition, what is other scope what give max even near 500kwfm/s.

Exactly. If you need one function or feature, then get the scope that has it. In my general hobbyist needs, 4 channels outweighs most of the other features of the Siglent. The big, and I mean big, variable here, is that the Rigol has the freely available information on how to change it to the 100MHz version with all options. In reality this is an unfair fight because the Siglent loses to the Rigol over something many people feel is an immoral or unethical modification. I do not think it is and so to me the Rigol wins for my needs.

[tautech]

Both have advantages and disadvantages. No one can say which is universally better. If know user individual needs then it can tell which one is better for this user.

And so on.

But the list grows....
Individual channel controls
400V channel inputs
and so on...

But really, despite all this banter the X series products have just been released, Dave found a few simple bugs and rf-loop seems to have found several more, isn't that what pre-release units to dealers products are for?

The unit Dave reviewed is one of these, rf-loop's unit is one too and mine should be here tomorrow. 

But forget all this hype and tell us where they are available for immediate dispatch. 

[rf-loop]

But forget all this hype and tell us where they are available for immediate dispatch. 

I do not know.

I have heard rumors that there is units for the general sales already departed from factory and on the road to Siglent's own European wholesale warehouse.

Lets hope Siglent get well (enough) documented feedback about bugs, design errors and things what need develop from sellers demo units to repair and improve FW asap although  it is much more mature than SDS2k was in this phase.
Of course this is one function of demo units what may support also some kind of delta test purposes before public sell units but also these can use for limited demonstrations. And for seller education-training purpose. It is very important that seller is specialist who also have enough knowledge and experience about equipments what he is selling. (there is of course other kind of sellers who only know how to receive payment and how to send nice box to customer. but this is other case, we need support also these "box shipper" sellers customers free... (as long as there exist these "NiceBox shippers" as sellers )

[Stephan_T]

Both have advantages and disadvantages. No one can say which is universally better. If know user individual needs then it can tell which one is better for this user.

And so on.

But the list grows....
Individual channel controls
400V channel inputs
and so on...
[...]

Which one and for what CAT rating?

As I cited here, the Rigol Manual for the DS1000Z series states:

Chapter 18 Specifications

Maximum Input Voltage (1M?)

Analog Channel: CAT I 300 Vrms, CAT II 100 Vrms, Transient Overvoltage 1000 Vpk With RP2200 10:1 probe: CAT II 300 Vrms

So as far as I understand this, the safety level for mains voltages depends on the selection of the probe switch (1x vs. 10x). How does this compare to the Siglent?

One of the most important bits of wisdom that I learned from Dave here at the EEVblog is, that the superior quality of test equipment is not accuracy or features, but the level of confidence that it provides you.
Having problems with aliasing may be just a nuisance for experts, but it could be very misleading for beginners.

[EEVblog]

FYI, none other than the Siglent CEO will be visiting the EEVblog lab in December.
Siglent fanboys can get their questions ready.

[vlad777]

 I knew that this one will have great variable intensity for your 1MHz/1KHz AM test signal.
 Because it was about time.

 edit:  And it also catches all runts and 1inM glitches.

 BTW
    Do make a video about:  sample rate needs to be 4* frequency for sinx on x .

[rsjsouza]

So far one can nitpick its features and glitches, but overall it is configuring itself to be a very nice entry level oscilloscope. Hopefully Siglent will keep up with firmware updates.

[tautech]

FYI, none other than the Siglent CEO will be visiting the EEVblog lab in December.
Siglent fanboys can get their questions ready.

Yes this one Dave:

When will a Siglent Spectrum analyser be released and what general specs will it have?

[rf-loop]

FYI, none other than the Siglent CEO will be visiting the EEVblog lab in December.
Siglent fanboys can get their questions ready.

Yes this one Dave:

When will a Siglent Spectrum analyser be released and what general specs will it have?

Do you mean SSA3030
In europe its price is cheap,  around 3950 EUR  Excl. VAT
some specs

[tautech]

FYI, none other than the Siglent CEO will be visiting the EEVblog lab in December.
Siglent fanboys can get their questions ready.

Yes this one Dave:

When will a Siglent Spectrum analyser be released and what general specs will it have?

Do you mean SSA3030

No, there have been whispers of a new model.

[tautech]

Both have advantages and disadvantages. No one can say which is universally better. If know user individual needs then it can tell which one is better for this user.

And so on.

But the list grows....
Individual channel controls
400V channel inputs
and so on...
[...]

Which one and for what CAT rating?

Both vertical input channels, 400V CAT I

As I cited here, the Rigol Manual for the DS1000Z series states:

Chapter 18 Specifications

Maximum Input Voltage (1M?)

Analog Channel: CAT I 300 Vrms, CAT II 100 Vrms, Transient Overvoltage 1000 Vpk With RP2200 10:1 probe: CAT II 300 Vrms

So as far as I understand this, the safety level for mains voltages depends on the selection of the probe switch (1x vs. 10x).

No that's not correct.
And you don't state whose mains voltages, 110 or 230 VAC?

How does this compare to the Siglent?

Good question and a bit of hunting was needed to find all the facts.

From the Siglent PP215 probe spec sheet:
The measurement category of a combination of a PROBE ASSEMBLY and an accessory is the lower of the measurement categories of the PROBE ASSEMBLY and of the accessory.

Further to this; PP215 probe Maximum input is specified as 1:1 300V and 10:1 600V Working voltage (Vp-p)

DSO spec from User manual:
SDS1000X series digital oscilloscopes can make measurements in measurement category I.

Measurement category I is for measurements performed on circuits not directly connected to MAINS. Examples are measurements on circuits not derived from MAINS, and specially protected (internal) MAINS derived circuits. In the latter case, transient stresses are variable; for that reason, the transient withstand capability of the equipment is made known to the user.

I read this to mean I can safely use the SDS1000X series and PP215 supplied probes to 300 V @ 1:1 and 600 V @ 10:1 CAT I.

But I wouldn't, anything over 250V low impedence and my 100:1 probe comes out and that's with any model/brand of scope.

[jhufford]

Great review! made my decisions even tougher...
I would love to see a review of that Siglent SDG2122X arb gen in the video. Maybe make it a "how-to" or "buyer guide" for arb gens.

[Hydrawerk]

Finally I found the user manual. http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/UserManual/SDS1000X_UserManual_UM0101X-E01A.pdf

[Smokey]

FYI, none other than the Siglent CEO will be visiting the EEVblog lab in December.
Siglent fanboys can get their questions ready.

Wow.  There is a company that knows it's target customer.  Good stuff.

[coppice]

both scopes don't give each other much, and which one is the better buy really depends on what you require.

For most people I'd say 4 channels trumps 200Mhz.

Most scopes are only 2 channel, and I don't hear engineers moaning about this too often. Most 4 channels scopes seldom seem to have more than one or two probes plugged in. 4 channels can certainly be very useful at times, but I would put more performance over more than 2 channels in almost every buying decision.

[vk6zgo]

Both the Siglent & the Rigol seem to have problems triggering on an AM signal at the modulating frequency rate,with a bit of "jittering" being evident.
The same problem appears with some analog Oscilloscopes,whilst others seem to have no problem with it.

"Stopping" the display & looking at the saved waveform is obviously not the answer where the modulation needs to be adjusted while you are observing the resultant AM signal.

Luckily,in most cases you will have access to the modulating signal,either from its source or after demodulation,so all you need to do is trigger the 'scope from that.

[rf-loop]

Both the Siglent & the Rigol seem to have problems triggering on an AM signal at the modulating frequency rate,with a bit of "jittering" being evident.
The same problem appears with some analog Oscilloscopes,whilst others seem to have no problem with it.

"Stopping" the display & looking at the saved waveform is obviously not the answer where the modulation needs to be adjusted while you are observing the resultant AM signal.

Luckily,in most cases you will have access to the modulating signal,either from its source or after demodulation,so all you need to do is trigger the 'scope from that.

If you look Dave's video starting position 16m50s this part is "just for fun playing". This is perhaps Dave's demonstration about situation when people do not have enough knowledge and experience with oscilloscope and how to set trigger for good trig with AM modulated carrier.  I know Dave can of course do it but some reason here he just want playing like noob who take his first oscilloscope just out from box and then try make as Guinnes record  how fast push and turn knobs and buttons nearly randomly. 

Just set enough holdoff and reject HF from trigger is good starting point for optimum setting for this kind of signal.  But then, situation go much more difficlt or even nearly impossible if there is changing modulation signal level and frequency, example speech or example some special non continuous uniform modulation signal.  If I set SDS1202X trigger for example 3.699MHz carrier and say example 440Hz AM modulation depth 50% there is not any kind of difficult to get rock solid trig for look around 1 or 2 cycle modulating signal cycle horizontally.  Of course when understand how trigger work it is clear there need set holdoff time what is ok with modulating signal frequency and some times also better set trig for  HF reject and perhaps also switch noise reject on.   But, with more difficult situations some times need arrange separate trigger if mod signal is more complex.

[tautech]

If you look Dave's video starting position 16m50s this part is "just for fun playing"......

I know Dave can of course do it but some reason here he just want playing like noob who take his first oscilloscope just out from box and then try make as Guinnes record  how fast push and turn knobs and buttons nearly randomly. 

Yes, I noticed that too, it is his style.

But despite this, now I've got one too, all I want to do is play with it as well.   

[vk6zgo]

Pretty fair comment,rf-loop---pretty much what you have to do with an analog unit.

I found some are considerably more 'fiddly" than others,so if I had to look at an AM waveform with a 'scope I knew to be the "fiddly" type,I usually went straight to the external trigger option.

We weren't strictly speaking supposed to check modulation looking at the envelope.
The preferred way was the "trapezoid pattern,with the modulating waveform on the "X" axis,but the envelope was always good for a quick check.

On one occasion,we received a Modulation Monitor back for service because it was "reading too high"
We sent off a replacement,but a "quick check" showed that the "faulty" meter & the"scope envelope closely agreed ,so the Boss sent us off on a "roadtrip".

It turned out that the local Phone techs had done a lineup on a +8dBm tone instead of a +16dBm one,so the transmitter was overmodulating wildly on programme material.

You should have seen what that envelope looked like!------ eeek!   

[Siglent America]

Great review! made my decisions even tougher...
I would love to see a review of that Siglent SDG2122X arb gen in the video. Maybe make it a "how-to" or "buyer guide" for arb gens.

Jack Ganssle now has a SDG2000X (SDG2042X I believe) and will doing a video review on it soon. He usually pushes his videos to YouTube as well.

[poida_pie]

the "$499 US scope" sells here for $1022 AU plus 10% GST

http://www.triotest.com.au/shop/siglent/3818-siglent-sds1102x-digital-oscilloscope-100mhz-1gsas-2-channel.html
(the url reads incorrectly but points to the 200MHz model)
hmm, that is over $1,100 tax paid AUS for me since I can never claim GST exemption.

I paid $550 (including GST) for my DS1054Z only about 7 or 8 months ago.
There is no comparison with respect to price.

Just to underline how things are getting expensive here in AUS, the Rigol DS2072A is now $1,247 AUS + GST
or $1,371 AUS tax paid, so Trio have priced the Siglent a bit below the DS2072A for our local market as claimed.

It still seems a bit expensive for what you get.
The Rigol DS1054Z has 4 channels, a good 2mV/div front end and options can be enabled via serial numbers.
The Siglent has a nice low noise front end, a very good at 0.5mV/div but only two channels plus ext trigger.
Still the pick of the litter for a hobbiest seems to me to be the Rigol DS1054Z.

[rf-loop]

the "$499 US scope" sells here for $1022 AU plus 10% GST

http://www.triotest.com.au/shop/siglent/3818-siglent-sds1102x-digital-oscilloscope-100mhz-1gsas-2-channel.html
(the url reads incorrectly but points to the 200MHz model)
hmm, that is over $1,100 tax paid AUS for me since I can never claim GST exemption.

I paid $550 (including GST) for my DS1054Z only about 7 or 8 months ago.
There is no comparison with respect to price.

Just to underline how things are getting expensive here in AUS, the Rigol DS2072A is now $1,247 AUS + GST
or $1,371 AUS tax paid, so Trio have priced the Siglent a bit below the DS2072A for our local market as claimed.

It still seems a bit expensive for what you get.
The Rigol DS1054Z has 4 channels, a good 2mV/div front end and options can be enabled via serial numbers.
The Siglent has a nice low noise front end, a very good at 0.5mV/div but only two channels plus ext trigger.
Still the pick of the litter for a hobbiest seems to me to be the Rigol DS1054Z.

Try to capture >> 400000 acquisitions/s speed sequence with DS1000Z   = just nothing.

Stop DS1000Z and look if you find up to 80000 last normal speed acquisitions (waveforms)  from history buffer.

Do mask test with DS1000Z and run signal what give result = fail. How many pass/fail test it can do in one second? For what it can use?

[Karel]

Do mask test with DS1000Z and run signal what give result = fail. How many pass/fail test it can do in one second? For what it can use?

Usually not a valid point for hobbyists. Personally, I should never buy a 2-channel DSO.

[poida_pie]

Karel, I was just going to say the same thing (mask test more a production environment thing)
4 channels, SPI,I2C means more to what I see as current hacking/experimentalist/learning people than
the very fast acquire to memory.
rf-loop is correct: the up to 80,000 waveforms always present in memory is a good thing. But to get that it will cost the loss of
serial decode and 4 channels. You can turn on the Rigol - admittedly hobbled - memory functions to get a good amount of pre and post trigger data
but while using it, you can not use serial decode.

[tautech]

Do mask test with DS1000Z and run signal what give result = fail. How many pass/fail test it can do in one second? For what it can use?

Usually not a valid point for hobbyists. Personally, I should never buy a 2-channel DSO.

Quite right, but with the pass/fail specs of this DSO it will be quite attractive for production checks and those that might need this won't want 4 channels.

Horses for courses.

[rf-loop]

Do mask test with DS1000Z and run signal what give result = fail. How many pass/fail test it can do in one second? For what it can use?

Usually not a valid point for hobbyists. Personally, I should never buy a 2-channel DSO.

I have used higher and lower end oscilloscpopes for hobby and for professional needs over 40 years.
In my case it can count my fingers or something like it when I have really needed 4 channel oscilloscope.
In some rare case I have also "wanted" use 4 channel scope but many times just wanted...  also  there is very rare models what can give 4 channels with separate independent triggers. Some times it is nice to look 4 channels but what you see if these signals are not time synch with each others.

Oscilloscope need select starting from user needs. 

Today also I need 4 channel scopes but far far away how frequent I need one or 2 channel.

I have also repaired scopes and I have seen many many 4 channels scopes, mostly CH3 and 4 are like new, nearly like never touched. Perhaps one reason is also that professionals do not use things just for fun, things are used just for needs and as fast and short time as possible, only if it give money. Most time it looks like that hobbyist and specially who do not have so much experience want all stufss and features example in oscilloscope without any idea if he need these or not, because he do not know what he need. So he easy think, this and that is "nice to have if perhaps some times need".  Professional mostly know what he do and what he need do.. he can more easy specify what features instruments need have and what things are "so what".

If one tell to me  that he need 4 channels, I can never say you do not need.
If he ask me if he need 2 or 4 channel then I can try estimate it with himeself.

[tautech]

rf-loop is correct: the up to 80,000 waveforms always present in memory is a good thing. But to get that it will cost the loss of serial decode .......

Rubbish.

When the X series DSO's are fully spec'ed and in mass production they will have Decode, AWG and MSO.
The enable buttons for these options are already on the front panel.

[Fungus]

Do mask test with DS1000Z and run signal what give result = fail. How many pass/fail test it can do in one second? For what it can use?

Usually not a valid point for hobbyists. Personally, I should never buy a 2-channel DSO.

Yep. I really couldn't care less about that feature.

4 channels...? 100% necessary for me.

Horses for courses.

This. The two market segments (hobby vs. production test) have almost zero overlap, it's a completely pointless debate.

The best we can do is act like engineers and start an opinion poll. That will give us a percentage that we can look at and say 'mmmm' while stroking our metaphorical beards (or real beard if you have one). Maybe we can do that in the 'test gear' forum.

Edit:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscopes-how-many-channels-do-you-need/

[tautech]

Do mask test with DS1000Z and run signal what give result = fail. How many pass/fail test it can do in one second? For what it can use?

Usually not a valid point for hobbyists. Personally, I should never buy a 2-channel DSO.

Yep. I really couldn't care less about that feature.

4 channels...? 100% necessary for me.

Horses for courses.

This. The two market segments (hobby vs. production test) have almost zero overlap, it's a completely pointless debate.

The best we can do is act like engineers and start an opinion poll. That will give us a percentage that we can look at and say 'mmmm' while stroking our metaphorical beards (or real beard if you have one). Maybe we can do that in the 'test gear' forum.

Edit:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscopes-how-many-channels-do-you-need/

As a hobbyist I quite accept your point of view.
As a reseller I have had inquiry for production testing DSO's.

Again:
Horses for courses.

[Karel]

In my case it can count my fingers or something like it when I have really needed 4 channel oscilloscope.

Well, in our case, we use three or four channels half of the time.
We design circuits that uses adc's connected to an mcu. We use spi, uart, i2c. Ofcourse you can check/debug with two channels but, really?

[poida_pie]

rf-loop is correct: the up to 80,000 waveforms always present in memory is a good thing. But to get that it will cost the loss of serial decode .......

Rubbish.

When the X series DSO's are fully spec'ed and in mass production they will have Decode, AWG and MSO.
The enable buttons for these options are already on the front panel.

I was looking at the choice between a DS1054Z with serial decode and this Siglent as shown here that lacks it.

For sure Siglent will provide serial decode, etc., and then the cost goes up. No longer the very affordable ("only $499") DSO then.
If Siglent are positioning these instruments for production and design then fine, time to compare them with other than the excellent value Rigol DS1054Z.

This is my main point here: for my $500 or $600 AUS I think you still get a lot of scope from Rigol. The Siglent as tested by EEVblog will cost a bit more again when optioned up with serial decode, MSO etc.

[Siglent America]

Gentlemen,

I think there may be some confusion here.

Serial Decode option comes installed on the SDS1000X's with a 30-use trail period. The option can be purchased for permanent use for $169 (here in North America). It supports I2C, SPI, and UART/RS-232.

So this option comes already installed (trial use) and is available for purchase. We just received our first license for a customer today.
Steve

[Smokey]

Do mask test with DS1000Z and run signal what give result = fail. How many pass/fail test it can do in one second? For what it can use?

Usually not a valid point for hobbyists. Personally, I should never buy a 2-channel DSO.

Quite right, but with the pass/fail specs of this DSO it will be quite attractive for production checks and those that might need this won't want 4 channels.

I'm going to be a little harsh here, but this is my gut reaction.  Prove me wrong if you can.

How crazy would you be to put this instrument in a production test environment?  If you are ISO, you have to have every piece of equipment calibrated on schedule and they need to be repeatable.  Is that even possible with Siglent stuff?  How long would it realistically last (and stay in cal) running all day every day in a production test setup?  You may save some money up front, but will you pay for it later?

[AF6LJ]

Do mask test with DS1000Z and run signal what give result = fail. How many pass/fail test it can do in one second? For what it can use?

Usually not a valid point for hobbyists. Personally, I should never buy a 2-channel DSO.

Quite right, but with the pass/fail specs of this DSO it will be quite attractive for production checks and those that might need this won't want 4 channels.

I'm going to be a little harsh here, but this is my gut reaction.  Prove me wrong if you can.

How crazy would you be to put this instrument in a production test environment?  If you are ISO, you have to have every piece of equipment calibrated on schedule and they need to be repeatable.  Is that even possible with Siglent stuff?  How long would it realistically last (and stay in cal) running all day every day in a production test setup?  You may save some money up front, but will you pay for it later?

So I have to ask
How do you calibrate that scope?

[tautech]

Do mask test with DS1000Z and run signal what give result = fail. How many pass/fail test it can do in one second? For what it can use?

Usually not a valid point for hobbyists. Personally, I should never buy a 2-channel DSO.

Quite right, but with the pass/fail specs of this DSO it will be quite attractive for production checks and those that might need this won't want 4 channels.

I'm going to be a little harsh here, but this is my gut reaction.  Prove me wrong if you can.

How crazy would you be to put this instrument in a production test environment?  If you are ISO, you have to have every piece of equipment calibrated on schedule and they need to be repeatable.  Is that even possible with Siglent stuff?  How long would it realistically last (and stay in cal) running all day every day in a production test setup?  You may save some money up front, but will you pay for it later?

So I have to ask
How do you calibrate that scope?

Sorry I don't have Cal info on procedures.

The factory supplied Cal cert lists equipment used as:
Fluke 9500B
Agilent E4421B

[Siglent America]

"So I have to ask
How do you calibrate that scope?"

Calibration is performed "closed-case" with a Fluke calibrator through the USB port.

I see you are in the USA. Transcat performs calibration on Siglent products at their labs throughout North America.

[Smokey]

The last thing you want to do to a production test setup is worry about if it's accurate and have to fiddle with it all the time.  I understand we aren't talking about this class of instrument,  but relating to a production test environment and calibration and MTBF this is the blurb from the Keysight 3000T datasheet:
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-0140EN.pdf?id=2545408

Total cost of ownership:
The 3000T X-Series offers an extremely low cost of ownership. Between the standard
3yr warranty, an industry leading mean time between failure (MTBF) of over 250,000
hours and a market-leading calibration period of 3 years, you can rest assured that your
investment in a 3000T X-Series will be protected for years to come.

[AF6LJ]

"So I have to ask
How do you calibrate that scope?"

Calibration is performed "closed-case" with a Fluke calibrator through the USB port.

I see you are in the USA. Transcat performs calibration on Siglent products at their labs throughout North America.

I figured it was closed case, I was wondering if you have to plug a USB memory stick with the proper program to put it into calibration mode or if it was a front panel button combination on power up.

[FrankBuss]

BTW: got an ad eMail yesterday:



Good idea: send Dave a product, then use his video for marketing. I hope Dave gets a cut of the sale

[tautech]

Good idea: send Dave a product, then use his video for marketing. I hope Dave gets a cut of the sale

Dave was loaned both the SDS1202X and SDG2000X by Aussie multi brand distributor Triotest not Siglent.
Triotest had to buy these from Siglent like all distributors.

BTW Dave mentions in the SDG2000X overview vid he will be visited by the Siglent CEO in December:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-806-siglent-sdg2000x-arb-function-generator-first-look/

[EEVblog]

Good idea: send Dave a product, then use his video for marketing. I hope Dave gets a cut of the sale

Nope!

[SeanB]

Very dicy to use Dave as a promo tool, he will tell you both good and bad points in your product. Sharp knife there, and a double edged one at that. if good enough you get something good in review, but he will slate you for any foibles and poor choices in his opinion you have made.

[Smokey]

You should change that video link to a Rick Roll.

"Never gonna give you up....."

[tautech]

New FW for market release put online today:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SDS1000X_V100R001B01D01P39R5.rar

[tautech]

rf-loop's SDS1000X thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/

wfm/s speed tables etc

[rf-loop]

I will note also here that after previous 1.1.1.39.6 (this is not downloadable) and more previous 1.1.1.39.5 (downloadable)  Siglent have released new FW for SDS1000X series.
Current Version: 1.1.2.1R1 | Published?2015-12-18  (on the scope screen 1.1.2.1.1)


One major improvement: Old version Sequence mode can capture  up to 1000 segments as also stated in data sheet and Siglent side introductions about SDS1000X.  Maximum number of segments are now 80000.
It rise this function useability to totally new level. Speed is untouched and it can reach up to  500000 captured waveforms/s (aka segments) speed in Sequence mode when single segment lenght is 700 sample points and samplerate is 1GSa/s.  (New updated table is published there is SDS1000X thread.)

[mash107]

Tequipment has this scope for $560, which is not too bad of a price point considering its features. Makes deciding between a hacked DS1054Z and this one even more difficult.

http://www.tequipment.net/Siglent/SDS1202X/Digital-Oscilloscopes/

[radiolistener]

I just leave it here, because it's now hard to google due to a lot of links about SDS1202X-E

SDS1202X Teardown: