Author Topic: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown  (Read 28340 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« on: November 06, 2015, 10:07:08 pm »
A look inside a dumpster Keysight/Agilent N8762A 600V 8A System DC power supply.
Where did the magic smoke escape from?
PCB spark gap video:

 

Offline gerrysweeney

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2015, 11:10:18 pm »
Dave,

Not sure how you would feed your single phase supply into "All three phases" as you stated because in three-phase there is no "common", what you would need to do is feed your single phase supply into L1 and L2 (or L2 and L3, or L1 and L3), any combination should work fine.

Gerry

Offline c4757p

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2015, 11:13:34 pm »
I do hope he didn't have the fourth (earth) terminal in mind when he said that. :palm:
No longer active here - try the IRC channel if you just can't be without me :)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2015, 11:33:20 pm »
Not sure how you would feed your single phase supply into "All three phases" as you stated because in three-phase there is no "common", what you would need to do is feed your single phase supply into L1 and L2 (or L2 and L3, or L1 and L3), any combination should work fine.

Yes, correct. I should have looked and thought harder before blabbing. Yes this is not a common earth supply, so have to hook up one phase to 240V only.
The earth is only a safety earth.
This has already been corrected on the annotation.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2015, 11:40:50 pm »
Actually, come to think of it, the small three phase wires (near the MOV's) going over to the smaller PSU board looks suspicious. No reason to do that really unless that board is doing some sort of phase presence detection. In that case I'm likely out of luck and the thing won't power up with a single phase hooked up. Murphy might ensure that.
 

Online Yansi

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2015, 11:59:28 pm »
The phase-loss detection(protection) circuit is quite probable to be there. It does make sense, because if losing one of the phases, you will overload the remaining powered part of the three-phase bridge rectifier.
 

Offline Phoenix

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2015, 11:59:59 pm »
Actually, come to think of it, the small three phase wires (near the MOV's) going over to the smaller PSU board looks suspicious. No reason to do that really unless that board is doing some sort of phase presence detection. In that case I'm likely out of luck and the thing won't power up with a single phase hooked up. Murphy might ensure that.

I've seen similar (Magna Power) units with phase loss detection, these things would be pretty smart inside.

What you might find is that the big relays only close once the system is up and running and you've enabled the power output; and that the power circuitry and those big capacitors havn't been stressed at all. Only need to follow that low power/signal path with the blown MOV, input bridge rectifier and whatever that goes to.
 

Offline RobB

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2015, 12:10:29 am »
Take a good look at the remaining Fuse specs Dave. Being a switcher it will probably require a set of fast blow fuses.
Apologies if this is a grandma and egg tale.
 

Offline MartinX

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2015, 12:15:33 am »
Some three phase supplies like that can be fed by a single phase, you would have to look in the manual so see if it is possible. A certain input would have to be used like L1-L2 and some dip switch or jumper be set in the correct position, I have come across some Sorensen supplies like that. As I understand it in the US there are single phase 120-0-120 outlets that can deliver much more than 10A.
 

Offline crispy_tofu

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2015, 01:56:23 am »
Hehe, you have 247V in the lab, I have 250V!  ;) (probably because I live close to a substation)
According to this document, the absolute maximum in NSW is 264V, with a notification for adjustment at 253V.  :-+
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2015, 02:14:04 am »
Some three phase supplies like that can be fed by a single phase, you would have to look in the manual so see if it is possible. A certain input would have to be used like L1-L2 and some dip switch or jumper be set in the correct position, I have come across some Sorensen supplies like that. As I understand it in the US there are single phase 120-0-120 outlets that can deliver much more than 10A.

Yes, good read of the manual required first.
 

Offline gardner

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2015, 02:42:41 am »
There are many VFDs available that are designed to run three-phase industrial equipment (pumps, saws, mills etc) from single/split phase supplies.  I believe you will find something from China that is designed for 120V that can generate three-phase 208V at 0-300Hz for $150 or so.

Edit:

Here's a nice one:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/110V-3KW-4HP-13A-VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-INVERTER-VFD-HY-FOR-CNC-SPEED-CONTROL-/281385471151?hash=item4183e18caf:g:cwQAAOSwsB9WAAB2
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 02:51:38 am by gardner »
--- Gardner
 

Offline rs20

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2015, 02:56:27 am »
There are many VFDs available that are designed to run three-phase industrial equipment (pumps, saws, mills etc) from single/split phase supplies.  I believe you will find something from China that is designed for 120V that can generate three-phase 208V at 0-300Hz for $150 or so.

I was thinking of suggesting the same thing; but do these VFDs output something close enough to a sine wave for the PSU to consider acceptable? These VFDs often assume an inductive load, right?
 

Offline ro_ss

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2015, 03:27:28 am »
I would assume that the rest of the PSU is fine owing to the relays.
I'd say that they plugged in the PSU with the switch off thus the relays would be off and no power is applied to the PFC board and the rest of the PSU wouldn't have been damaged hence there isn't any  damage visible.
 

Offline maor

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2015, 05:30:47 am »
So I was going through tdk-lambadas promotional video and guess what I saw?
 

Offline crispy_tofu

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2015, 05:37:29 am »
Link? ;)
 

Offline Huluvu

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2015, 05:57:23 am »
Dave - I assume the mentioned gluing at 9:30 is defined by the result of S&V Test.
The glue will be placed on the components where the resonant testing showing any weakness.

Rgds
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Offline bktemp

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2015, 06:47:24 am »
What you might find is that the big relays only close once the system is up and running and you've enabled the power output; and that the power circuitry and those big capacitors havn't been stressed at all. Only need to follow that low power/signal path with the blown MOV, input bridge rectifier and whatever that goes to.
I was thinking the same when watching the video.
If Dave is lucky, the MOV or some other low power stuff blew/shorted before the two big relais enabled the high power stuff.
If there are no shorts at the DC rail going into the PFC, then all the high power stuff is most likely fine.


Why is there a spark gap on the pcb under the common mode choke at the output? I have seen this on many common mode chokes. Does anybody know?
 


Offline Arjan Emm

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2015, 08:04:15 am »
This power supply looks very similar to the genesys 2U series from TDK Lambda.
http://uk.tdk-lambda.com/products/product-details.aspx?cid=3&scid=273
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2015, 08:49:08 am »
Dave - I assume the mentioned gluing at 9:30 is defined by the result of S&V Test.
The glue will be placed on the components where the resonant testing showing any weakness.

Could be, but the exact same leaded parts don't have it elsewhere, so if so it wouldn't be (or shouldn't) because of an actual leaded component modal reason. So could be a PCB modal component involved. But I suspect the reason for the stuff is not nearly this complicated.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2015, 08:49:51 am »
This power supply looks very similar to the genesys 2U series from TDK Lambda.
http://uk.tdk-lambda.com/products/product-details.aspx?cid=3&scid=273

Looks the same!
Schematics for that one I wonder?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2015, 08:51:18 am »
I would assume that the rest of the PSU is fine owing to the relays.
I'd say that they plugged in the PSU with the switch off thus the relays would be off and no power is applied to the PFC board and the rest of the PSU wouldn't have been damaged hence there isn't any  damage visible.

Could very well be. And welcome to the forum!
 

Offline Huluvu

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2015, 09:03:44 am »
Dave - I assume the mentioned gluing at 9:30 is defined by the result of S&V Test.
The glue will be placed on the components where the resonant testing showing any weakness.

Could be, but the exact same leaded parts don't have it elsewhere, so if so it wouldn't be (or shouldn't) because of an actual leaded component modal reason. So could be a PCB modal component involved. But I suspect the reason for the stuff is not nearly this complicated.

I know from our resonant testing lab that they put the whole unit on the shaker and vibrate it according special standards/requirements.
You always have some special resonant areas where the board or components became oscillating. (that's why they put glue on it)
Another reason might be some safety issue if the component get loosen.

"Yeah, but no, but yeah, but no..."
 

Offline station240

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Re: EEVblog #814 - Keysight N8762A 600V 5100W PSU Teardown
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2015, 09:26:50 am »
L1 Fuse blown
L2 MOV blown
L3 Fuse Blown
Seems to be some sort of pattern here.  :-DD

Both fuses blew instantly, the remaining Line was then shorted to earth by the MOV.
Never seen a ceramic fuse blow hard enough for the magic white dust to escape from inside.

I'd advise caution with using it over single phase.
As 5,100W over 240V is 22Amps, and the start up current could be higher, after all it does have 32 Amp fuses on all 3 phases (well did have).

The phase detection can be outwitted with this circuit, on the low voltage side of the sense resistors.
http://www.homemade-circuits.com/2013/09/three-phase-signal-generator-circuit.html
 


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