Author Topic: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!  (Read 42625 times)

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Online EEVblog

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EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« on: November 30, 2015, 09:34:00 am »
Did you know that your colour laser printer is secretly printing a forensic code on every one of your printouts so the government can track it?
Sounds like a nutjob conspiracy theory, but it's true!
Yellow dots that are invisible to the naked eye are printed all over your page that have the printer serial number and time and date encoded within them.
List of printers that do/don't have this forensic encoding
https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do-not-display-tracking-dots
https://www.eff.org/issues/printers
http://seeingyellow.com/
It may even violate human rights:
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/02/eu-printer-tracking-dots-may-violate-human-rights

 

Offline GNU_Ninja

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2015, 09:36:17 am »
Did you know that your colour laser printer is secretly printing a forensic code on every one of your printouts so the government can track it?

Yes  :)
 

Online PA0PBZ

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2015, 09:47:01 am »
I thought it was more or less public knowledge. Other interesting things can happen when you try to scan/copy banknotes  :)
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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2015, 09:51:00 am »
Other interesting things can happen when you try to scan/copy banknotes  :)

Photoshop will flag images of banknotes.
 

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2015, 09:52:04 am »
I thought it was more or less public knowledge.

I'd be willing to bet 99% of the public do not know.
 

Offline Tim F

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2015, 09:54:57 am »
Hah, I didn't actually know about this until now. Interesting that the homebrew PCB toner transfer gang don't have problems with this? I use a colour laser printer for toner transfers (Lexmark C543dn) and it doesn't produce dots.
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2015, 10:13:55 am »
Up yours Uncle Sam, I only print ransom notes and love letters in black and white.... ;D
 

Offline crispy_tofu

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2015, 10:25:30 am »
Great video!  :-+
Other interesting things can happen when you try to scan/copy banknotes  :)

Photoshop will flag images of banknotes.

Further reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation
 

Offline continuo

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2015, 10:30:29 am »
Most of the people who are into computers and electronics here knew that for many years, the general public not so much... And a lot of people here still buy their stuff locally, payed in cash. So if I drive to Computer Müller and buy a Xerox Phaser in his shop, he gets the money, I get the printer and that's it. No names involved. OTOH, it would be a real dumb idea to order the printer on Amazon, pay it with your credit card and use it to print the newest IS pamphlets  :-DD
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2015, 11:00:35 am »
One reason why I am still using a few of the old but trustworthy HP 4100N Laserprinters.
This knowledge is old, for those in the know.
For Photoshop there is a plugin / patch available, so you can scan banknotes.
 
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2015, 11:03:17 am »
Pay cash and never register your printer ;)
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2015, 11:06:17 am »
Pay cash and never register your printer ;)
And buy them in a different city, far away from where you live.
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2015, 11:08:14 am »
Pay cash and never register your printer ;)
And buy them in a different city, far away from where you live.

And make sure is a tethered printer not wifi or ethernet.
 

Offline max666

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2015, 11:12:02 am »
I didn't know about this. But I do know about the EURion constellation.
What happens if you print out with a yellow background, does that fool the system?
 

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2015, 11:16:25 am »
Pay cash and never register your printer ;)

Too bad about those security cameras in the stores, and the date and time of the sale still tracked  8)
 

Offline continuo

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2015, 11:30:39 am »
What happens if you print out with a yellow background, does that fool the system?

Interesting question. But an entire page, covered in 100% yellow, to trick the system, wouldn't be of much interest to the agencies, I guess  :-//
 

Offline GNU_Ninja

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2015, 11:38:45 am »
Just use one of these http://www.vintagecomputer.net/teletype101.cfm all the I/O you need in one convenient unit, and no naughty yellow dots  ;D
 

Offline Barny

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2015, 12:06:09 pm »
Pay cash and never register your printer ;)

Too bad about those security cameras in the stores, and the date and time of the sale still tracked  8)
To bad that the serial number is not on the outside of the package.
And if it is, the cameras are not able to show them in an readable solution.
The only thing the cameras show is that you bought a printer.
But not which one of the 10/20 in the shop.
And normally the recordings get deleted after some time.
 

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2015, 12:17:32 pm »
To bad that the serial number is not on the outside of the package.
It mostly is
Quote
And if it is, the cameras are not able to show them in an readable solution.
The POS system will happily register at what date/time that serial number was sold
Quote
The only thing the cameras show is that you bought a printer.
Including the date and time
Quote
But not which one of the 10/20 in the shop.
No, that was already registered in the POS system.
Quote
And normally the recordings get deleted after some time.
The camera recordings yes, there you have a point.
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Offline eV1Te

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2015, 12:20:58 pm »
Dave, now you are required to teardown a printer and show us where the dots are actually produced.  ;)

Maybe there is an easy way to disable it?  :-/O
 

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2015, 12:26:01 pm »
Dave, now you are required to teardown a printer and show us where the dots are actually produced.  ;)

About here:

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Offline rolycat

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2015, 12:58:13 pm »
Dave, now you are required to teardown a printer and show us where the dots are actually produced.  ;)

Maybe there is an easy way to disable it?  :-/O

Doesn't seem too likely.

According to Xerox, who developed the first encoding system, the dots are generated by a dedicated chip "way in the machine, right near the laser" that embeds the dots when the document "is about 20 billionths of a second" from printing.


 

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2015, 01:23:59 pm »
To bad that the serial number is not on the outside of the package.
And if it is, the cameras are not able to show them in an readable solution.
The only thing the cameras show is that you bought a printer.
But not which one of the 10/20 in the shop.
And normally the recordings get deleted after some time.

Your last point is the only one that has validity.
If they do have the recordings then they have something concrete to go on.
Even if no recordings then they could go into phone metadata records to find out who was in/near that store at that time and date.
Paid by cash? Search nearby ATM record data for that and previous days for cash withdrawls.
All they need is a list of names to start narrowing down potential suspects, they don't need proof.
 

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2015, 01:25:18 pm »
Maybe there is an easy way to disable it?  :-/O

Greatly doubt it.
It will be deeply integrated into the printer system
 

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2015, 01:38:19 pm »
They would probably just match the printout to the printer if they found it in posession of a suspect. I doubt there is a massive database of who bought which printer. The same as you see typewriter defects matched with ransom notes in old movies.

Personally I don't see why printing your own grid of dots over the entire sheet  wouldn't fix them up good. Can you get twice the toner in one spot?

If you knew about this and wanted to get around it, you'd simply get a printer that doesn't do this.

Quote
Does this explain why I seem to run out of yellow ink first?

Very Likely.
 

Offline continuo

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2015, 01:44:01 pm »
If they do have the recordings then they have something concrete to go on.
Even if no recordings then they could go into phone metadata records to find out who was in/near that store at that time and date.
Paid by cash? Search nearby ATM record data for that and previous days for cash withdrawls.
All they need is a list of names to start narrowing down potential suspects, they don't need proof.

Dave... Don't wear that tin foil hat for more than 30 minutes a day. It starts to show effect...   ;D
 

Offline george graves

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2015, 01:49:18 pm »
I'd be willing to bet 99% of the public do not know.

The bar of public knowledge(for me, in a single sample) is my mom. And apparently she's seen it on CNN?  Or something.

If my mom knows about it, it's public.  Ha!

Sad but true. But on the other hand, my mom knows how to use an ipad - so maybe she's ahead of the curve?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 01:52:17 pm by george graves »
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2015, 02:17:38 pm »
Who cares? The encoded data decoder is only in the hand of very high level intelligent officers, and is very unlikely to be used on you unless you print banknotes. Besides, inkjets satisfy 99% of the needs, just in case you want to print terrorism agenda.

Once a while in China you need to register in public safety office before buying a color laser printer because at the moment fake money was everywhere.

I see no reason one should be fear of this unless he prints banknotes, debt notes or stock certificates.
 

Offline AlfBaz

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2015, 02:26:40 pm »
I wonder what would happen (especially here in oz with string consumer rights) if a heap of people started to send the printers back to place of purchase and demanded a refund.
The printer is sold as a device that lays down ink as dictated by the PC. If its adding or subtracting to the image then its not functioning as advertised
 

Offline AlfBaz

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2015, 02:29:44 pm »
I see no reason one should be fear of this unless he prints banknotes, debt notes or stock certificates.

Fear's got nothing to do with it. It's the "sneaky/underhanded" way in which these somewhat "reasonable" counter measures are carried out
 

Offline JoeO

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2015, 02:30:39 pm »
They would probably just match the printout to the printer if they found it in posession of a suspect. I doubt there is a massive database of who bought which printer. The same as you see typewriter defects matched with ransom notes in old movies.

Personally I don't see why printing your own grid of dots over the entire sheet  wouldn't fix them up good. Can you get twice the toner in one spot?

Does this explain why I seem to run out of yellow ink first?
Regarding paying in cash for the printer:
Most printers have printer driver software.  It would not be difficult to have the driver software read out the serial number of the printer and send it to the NSA database along with the IP address of the sending computer.   
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Offline TiN

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2015, 02:32:47 pm »
Lol, I'll check on Ricoh C5000 tomorrow.
One interesting side note for industry people who might be into stealing trade secret documents, by printing on color lazer printers, that it could be tracked with this ease  ;D
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Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2015, 02:38:12 pm »
These dots are probably also now used to reconstruct "destroyed" documents (such as shredding). The regular pattern across the sheet provides a reference for reconstruction.   See "DARPA Shredder Challenge 2011", google "yellow dots" with it.
 

Offline baoshi

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2015, 02:44:35 pm »
I'm in the security printing industry. This yellow dot technology is an open secret and common requirement for color printer manufactures. Even passport printer for "certain" countries cannot escape this mandate. If you scan the image in RGB format and take out the B channel, the yellow dot can easily seen as black ones.
 

Offline baoshi

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2015, 02:49:38 pm »

Other interesting things can happen when you try to scan/copy banknotes  :)

Photoshop will flag images of banknotes.

Believe me Photoshop and many color photocopiers have a database of all known currency note images built in. I encounter a high-end canon color machines which refuses to copy currency notes (come out as broken image), but just to cover 10mmx10mm corner of the same note will fool the copier to produce a full  copy
 

Offline GNU_Ninja

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2015, 03:06:17 pm »
Hmmm, so if I print my perfidious propaganda pamphlets using a yellow font on yellow paper ...  ;D
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 04:19:24 pm by GNU_Ninja »
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2015, 03:38:08 pm »
Pay cash and never register your printer ;)

Too bad about those security cameras in the stores, and the date and time of the sale still tracked  8)

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Offline AF6LJ

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2015, 03:42:53 pm »
To bad that the serial number is not on the outside of the package.
And if it is, the cameras are not able to show them in an readable solution.
The only thing the cameras show is that you bought a printer.
But not which one of the 10/20 in the shop.
And normally the recordings get deleted after some time.

Your last point is the only one that has validity.
If they do have the recordings then they have something concrete to go on.
Even if no recordings then they could go into phone metadata records to find out who was in/near that store at that time and date.
Paid by cash? Search nearby ATM record data for that and previous days for cash withdrawls.
All they need is a list of names to start narrowing down potential suspects, they don't need proof.
Some of us remove the battery from our phone when we go places we don't be tracked.
Like to the local militia meeting.
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Offline AF6LJ

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2015, 03:54:46 pm »
They would probably just match the printout to the printer if they found it in posession of a suspect. I doubt there is a massive database of who bought which printer. The same as you see typewriter defects matched with ransom notes in old movies.

Personally I don't see why printing your own grid of dots over the entire sheet  wouldn't fix them up good. Can you get twice the toner in one spot?

Does this explain why I seem to run out of yellow ink first?
Regarding paying in cash for the printer:
Most printers have printer driver software.  It would not be difficult to have the driver software read out the serial number of the printer and send it to the NSA database along with the IP address of the sending computer.
If you don't mind waiting the TOR network of onion routers will obfuscate your IP address.
Just make sure you select an outlet in your country a few hundred miles from where you are located.
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Offline Artlav

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2015, 03:56:55 pm »
Paid by cash? Search nearby ATM record data for that and previous days for cash withdrawls.
Interesting.
Here when you get your earnings, you go to the ATM and withdraw them all.
You only keep or put money onto a card when you want to buy something online, usually.

Is that different in USA or Australia?
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Offline JoeO

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2015, 04:42:00 pm »
Paid by cash? Search nearby ATM record data for that and previous days for cash withdrawls.
Interesting.
Here when you get your earnings, you go to the ATM and withdraw them all.
You only keep or put money onto a card when you want to buy something online, usually.

Is that different in USA or Australia?
Yes.  I have a large charge limit.  When the bill comes, I pay it.
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Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2015, 04:43:35 pm »
Just buy a monochrome printer, then no issues with this. Of course you can still be traced and identified to the printer using the old methods Same batch of paper, defects in the rotocut paper blade showing up in the other sheets of paper, latent fingerprints on the paper/envelope, DNA traces on the stamp/envelope, witness marks from the paper pickup, fuser defects that give density variations, post office of origin......
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2015, 04:51:33 pm »
If you are that bent that you are printing bank notes you would not hesitate to steal the printer in the first place. I suspect though that when you download the drivers the printer dose the ET on you and phones home. So as long as you can steal the printer and run it without downloading the drivers and you stay off line you are safe until you try to pass the notes.
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2015, 05:05:47 pm »
Pay cash and never register your printer ;)
And buy them in a different city, far away from where you live.

And make sure is a tethered printer not wifi or ethernet.

  If you install software "drivers", they still report in.  Also even if you print only in black and white, a "color" printer still prints the tracking information.  It's one of the reasons that they consume color ink and REQUIRE color ink be installed even if you print only B&W.

  This is why I print all of my ransom demands on my old 9 pin dot matrix printer that I bought at a flea market.  :)
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2015, 05:51:06 pm »
So *this* is why printers refuse to print black/white pages when the colored ink runs out?

PS: Yes, I just checked my printer with something I printed this morning. It has the dots.

I knew they existed but I never actually looked before and I didn't know they were that easy to see. I just used a simple magnifying glass and there they were!

They literally cover the entire page, there's dots everywhere even though I only printed on the top third of it.

I guess the lesson is to:
a) Use a black/white printer
b) Photocopy your ransom notes before you post them.

I wonder what they actually use them for. I'm sure they don't have a database of every printer sold but they might be useful if you have a murder suspect who owns a laser printer - you could print a test page on his printer and match it.

Maybe bank note checking devices look for yellow dots to see if a banknote came from a color printer or not. That would make a lot of sense.
 

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2015, 07:51:18 pm »


Quote
Does this explain why I seem to run out of yellow ink first?

Very Likely.

actually no. Yellow has always been the first colour to run out. When i worked in a print shop where for ink we essentially used 5Kg tims of pigmented grease we alsways used more yellow than anything else. Your printer will be putting in yellow even if it prints black.
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Offline VinzC

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2015, 09:04:42 pm »
They F*** you with cell phones,
They F*** you at the drive-thru,
They F*** you at the hospital,
They F*** you with printers,
They F*** you all the time!

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Offline f4eru

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2015, 10:24:59 pm »
Maybe there is an easy way to disable it?  :-/O

Put in a really empty yellow cartridge.
(print a few pages all yellow to be sure)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 10:43:51 pm by f4eru »
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2015, 10:41:01 pm »
Regarding paying in cash for the printer:
Most printers have printer driver software.  It would not be difficult to have the driver software read out the serial number of the printer and send it to the NSA database along with the IP address of the sending computer.
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Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2015, 11:05:15 pm »
According to Xerox, who developed the first encoding system, the dots are generated by a dedicated chip "way in the machine, right near the laser" that embeds the dots when the document "is about 20 billionths of a second" from printing.
I doubt it. Printer manufacturers are trying so save every penny. Such a chip would cost a bit and I guess could be difficult to integrate in the printing process. I think it is all in the firmware.

PS: I don't see dots on printouts from my Samsumg CLX-3170.
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #50 on: November 30, 2015, 11:28:12 pm »
It is interesting that in a forum that is full of Time Nuts, Precision Resistor Nuts, reverse engineering aficionado's and a myriad of other obsessions, the argument that something is too hard to be practical is ever raised.  Just because it would be hard to use these dot codes to track someone, or because paying cash makes tracking more difficult would not stop them from being used.  Only a speedbump.  The resources that governments and corporations can bring to bear on a problem dwarves any of our efforts.  Their much lower efficiency does not nearly make up the difference.

As a very minor example, think of the people who recover a crashed airplane from a crater or the seabottom and re-assemble it to determine the cause of the crash.
 

Offline v8dave

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #51 on: November 30, 2015, 11:30:36 pm »
Dave... Don't wear that tin foil hat for more than 30 minutes a day. It starts to show effect...   ;D

Oh dear... Too late... :)
 

Offline v8dave

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #52 on: November 30, 2015, 11:32:39 pm »
Up yours Uncle Sam, I only print ransom notes and love letters in black and white.... ;D

But don't use a colour laser to do so  :P
 

Offline v8dave

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #53 on: November 30, 2015, 11:35:20 pm »
I never knew about this so after seeing this video, I printed out a sample and sure enough there are yellow dots all over the page from my HP CP1025. Interestingly enough, where I printed solid red there were magenta dots so I suspect even if you were to print over the whole of the white area there would still be these dots integrated into whatever was printed?
 

Offline wagon

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2015, 12:00:37 am »
I was, in a past life, a copier tech.  Some machines will copy money no troubles! (As a test, printout destroyed afterwards)  The yellow dots aren't even a secret!  Who cares!  You could trace printouts by marks left by the fuser, paper type, registration of the printouts, toner type, etc. 
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Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2015, 12:04:13 am »
Up yours Uncle Sam, I only print ransom notes and love letters in black and white.... ;D

But don't use a colour laser to do so  :P

It's not the first time that I've heard of it and cannot confirm that printing in black and white will bypass the coding but it is noted in one of the linked sites supplied by Dave which I read later on.

A hammer, chisel and a big block of stone is my preferred printing method, arms like Popeye.

http://seeingyellow.com/

 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2015, 12:47:04 am »
According to Xerox, who developed the first encoding system, the dots are generated by a dedicated chip "way in the machine, right near the laser" that embeds the dots when the document "is about 20 billionths of a second" from printing.
I doubt it. Printer manufacturers are trying so save every penny. Such a chip would cost a bit and I guess could be difficult to integrate in the printing process. I think it is all in the firmware.

PS: I don't see dots on printouts from my Samsumg CLX-3170.
I am convinced there is a way to turn off the yellow dots in firmware....
Most likely hackable.
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Offline free_electron

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #57 on: December 01, 2015, 12:54:45 am »
And the problem is what exactly ?
This is a measure to block counterfeiting. So if you don't print money, clones of valuable art pieces or IS pamphlets : no problemo.
if you do : you deserve all that can be thrown at you.

simple. no ?
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Offline steves

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #58 on: December 01, 2015, 01:02:25 am »
Pay cash and never register your printer ;)

Too bad about those security cameras in the stores, and the date and time of the sale still tracked  8)

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Offline wagon

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2015, 01:20:50 am »
... and wear a burka.
Only if you're really ugly.
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Offline Maxlor

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2015, 02:09:43 am »
And the problem is what exactly ?
This is a measure to block counterfeiting. So if you don't print money, clones of valuable art pieces or IS pamphlets : no problemo.
if you do : you deserve all that can be thrown at you.

simple. no ?
As always, it comes down to: quis custodet ipsos custodies? Barely a month goes by without me reading about some failure in that regard.
 

Offline JoeO

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2015, 02:18:41 am »
And the problem is what exactly ?
This is a measure to block counterfeiting. So if you don't print money, clones of valuable art pieces or IS pamphlets : no problemo.
if you do : you deserve all that can be thrown at you.

simple. no ?
No, because that is the way it always starts.  "We are going to do this to cut down on crime."
Look at all the laws that were passed for a "valid" reason. 
The DMCA.  Last I knew, it is being used to stop printer cartridge recycling.  There are other inventive ways it is being used.
Cell phones.  Turn on GPS so we can find you if you are in an accident.  Now people are using it to track you.
 
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Offline kalleboo

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2015, 03:11:11 am »
Believe me Photoshop and many color photocopiers have a database of all known currency note images built in.
Rather than having a database of all the currency in the world, they probably just look for the EURion constellation
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #63 on: December 01, 2015, 04:03:02 am »
And the problem is what exactly ?
This is a measure to block counterfeiting. So if you don't print money, clones of valuable art pieces or IS pamphlets : no problemo.
if you do : you deserve all that can be thrown at you.

simple. no ?
No, because that is the way it always starts.  "We are going to do this to cut down on crime."
Look at all the laws that were passed for a "valid" reason. 
The DMCA.  Last I knew, it is being used to stop printer cartridge recycling.  There are other inventive ways it is being used.
Cell phones.  Turn on GPS so we can find you if you are in an accident.  Now people are using it to track you.

I personally don't care if my pages are printed in traceable hieroglyphs, and given the number of Japanese printer manufacturers also involved in this (Canon, Panasonic, Oki, etc.), I personally find it hard to believe the US government is acting alone.

Law enforcement can track a person in several ways already mentioned here (credit cards, cameras, etc.). Regarding cell phones, there is no need for a fancy schmancy GPS turned on (that could easily be "turned off" by means of an actual tinfoil hat over it) - cellphone towers track a device's unique ID.
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Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2015, 04:43:26 am »
Law enforcement can track a person in several ways already mentioned here (credit cards, cameras, etc.). Regarding cell phones, there is no need for a fancy schmancy GPS turned on (that could easily be "turned off" by means of an actual tinfoil hat over it) - cellphone towers track a device's unique ID.

You can't get a mobile SIM card in this country without photo ID.
 

Offline kalleboo

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2015, 05:33:48 am »
You can't get a mobile SIM card in this country without photo ID.
Well "photo ID" is "enter your passport number in an online registration form", and from what I can tell there's no real way to verify if a passport number exists or is even valid... (as opposed to the services I could find which all acted on scans or MRZ data)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 05:42:43 am by kalleboo »
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2015, 05:39:46 am »
You can't get a mobile SIM card in this country without photo ID.

Wow!  Interesting....  No "disposable" pre-paid cell phones in AU...

Quite the variance worldwide on that one, I suppose...  When my sister did a stint as an exchange teacher in Ghana, she could buy SIM cards and/or minutes for several of the major providers out the window of the bus while stopped in traffic.  You could buy pretty much anything from outside the window of the bus while stopped in traffic!  :)  I can't find the blog post with her list of crazy things she saw being peddled from the street to riders of the bus but SIM cards and minutes were available everywhere on the street:

Quote
Anyway, when you run out of minutes for your phone you just buy another card, which is the size of a credit card but is paper, and scratch the back to get a number to enter on the phone.  These can be bought literally every 20 ft at stands and I try to mix it up a bit because I think they would wonder who the crazy white lady is talking to all the time in order to use that many minutes.  You know they are open for business if the umbrella is up and closed if it is down.  Very simple, very easy, I like it.  (Sorry sorry that this pic is sideways.  Selfishly I had decided it is easier for you to turn your head than for me to take the time to upload it again once I have rotated it.)
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #67 on: December 01, 2015, 06:42:29 am »
You could trace printouts by marks left by the fuser, paper type, registration of the printouts, toner type, etc.
That's not true. You cannot trace a printout with these characteristics. They don't tell you the date and printer serial number.
You can prove that it came from that particular printer, however.
Who cares!
We care. We don't want to be tracked continuously by surveillance states and phony agencies.
 

Offline bitwelder

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2015, 06:57:25 am »
Well, if we can't disable the tracking dots, why not add our own?
Like, adding to every print our personal yellow dots watermark that just happen to overlap with the embedded one.   8)
 

Offline Simon

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2015, 06:59:36 am »
Well, if we can't disable the tracking dots, why not add our own?
Like, adding to every print our personal yellow dots watermark that just happen to overlap with the embedded one.   8)

If they just happen to overlap the existing ones they just reinforce the ones there. You need a random pattern of yellow dots all over the page to confuse the coded pattern. It may need to be random to prevent of from being filtered out.
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Offline bktemp

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #70 on: December 01, 2015, 07:17:35 am »
If they just happen to overlap the existing ones they just reinforce the ones there. You need a random pattern of yellow dots all over the page to confuse the coded pattern. It may need to be random to prevent of from being filtered out.
If they are random, they can be filtered out, because they only have to look for a repeating pattern in the noise to recover the information.
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #71 on: December 01, 2015, 07:19:38 am »
This is a measure to block counterfeiting. So if you don't print money, clones of valuable art pieces or IS pamphlets : no problemo.
No it isn't. Counterfeiters don't use laser printers, you cannot print credible counterfeits with that technology. Every people handling money on a daily basis will immediately see the difference.
Counterfeiting will typically be blocked by detecting the eurion constellation.

That code can also probably not be read in the noise when all you have is a small part of the printout that is full of colors and very complicated patterns with no white patch.
That code is clearly designed to be readable on bigger patches of white background.


Besides, this measure wastes a lot of yellow toner. That ain't cheap.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 07:24:18 am by f4eru »
 

Offline baoshi

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2015, 08:45:14 am »

Believe me Photoshop and many color photocopiers have a database of all known currency note images built in.
Rather than having a database of all the currency in the world, they probably just look for the EURion constellation

Not completely. I just scanned a note, photoshop recognized it as currency. I blanked out the EURion constellation  photoshop still recognize it as currency. It seems to have a complicated scoring system.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2015, 08:46:12 am »
And the problem is what exactly ?
This is a measure to block counterfeiting. So if you don't print money, clones of valuable art pieces or IS pamphlets : no problemo.
if you do : you deserve all that can be thrown at you.

simple. no ?

Do they have to identify the exact printer to do that? Can't they just print the exact same pattern of yellow dots on all printers?

 

Offline amyk

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2015, 08:46:48 am »
Ever wonder where all the open-source (2D) printers are, or why firmware hacks seem to be so rare (even for simpler things like disabling those bloody chipped cartridges)...? A high-quality printer that they cannot control probably makes those in power feel uncomfortable, the same way they feel about things like encryption...
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #75 on: December 01, 2015, 08:48:22 am »
Law enforcement can track a person in several ways already mentioned here (credit cards, cameras, etc.). Regarding cell phones, there is no need for a fancy schmancy GPS turned on (that could easily be "turned off" by means of an actual tinfoil hat over it) - cellphone towers track a device's unique ID.

You can't get a mobile SIM card in this country without photo ID.

Same thing here in Spain.
 

Offline BradC

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #76 on: December 01, 2015, 09:12:17 am »
I always buy my lasers second hand and with cash (not for paranoia reasons, but it just works out that way).

Additionally HP printers get the time and date from embedded info sent through the HP printer drivers. Print to them using a generic PCL or Postscript driver and they don't know either. This also works for late model HP inkjets that have expiry dates built into the cartridge. Run them from a printer server or a linux box with a generic driver and your carts never expire. Just don't print to it using a Windows machine using a HP driver.
 

Offline timb

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #77 on: December 01, 2015, 09:49:08 am »

And the problem is what exactly ?
This is a measure to block counterfeiting. So if you don't print money, clones of valuable art pieces or IS pamphlets : no problemo.
if you do : you deserve all that can be thrown at you.

simple. no ?

Because it degrades the print quality for one. Besides, nobody uses a *laser* printer to counterfeit money. A high quality photo inkjet printer, perhaps, but laser? Come on.

Tell you what, next time you design a PCB, send me the files first and let me add random traces to the inner layers. You won't be able to see them on the produced board, so what do you care?

If I print something, I want exactly what I printed. Nothing more. Nothing less. This isn't hard to grasp.


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Offline NANDBlog

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #78 on: December 01, 2015, 09:56:08 am »
You can't get a mobile SIM card in this country without photo ID.
Last time I was at some airport, they were giving away free some low international call cost sim cards, pre-loaded with money. You just had to ask for it.

 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #79 on: December 01, 2015, 10:14:26 am »
You can't get a mobile SIM card in this country without photo ID.
Last time I was at some airport, they were giving away free some low international call cost sim cards, pre-loaded with money. You just had to ask for it.
You can easily buy prepaid SIM cards on the internet, so... just use those to plan your next heist.
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #80 on: December 01, 2015, 10:25:49 am »
You can't get a mobile SIM card in this country without photo ID.
Last time I was at some airport, they were giving away free some low international call cost sim cards, pre-loaded with money. You just had to ask for it.
You can easily buy prepaid SIM cards on the internet, so... just use those to plan your next heist.
Yes, I also need a laser printer with fake yellow dots, a tinfoil hat, a pogostick, clown shoes, a sonic screwdriver and a better plan.
Aldi sells sim cards...
 

Offline max666

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #81 on: December 01, 2015, 12:45:28 pm »
And the problem is what exactly ?
This is a measure to block counterfeiting. So if you don't print money, clones of valuable art pieces or IS pamphlets : no problemo.
if you do : you deserve all that can be thrown at you.

simple. no ?

 

Offline GandalfDerGraue

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #82 on: December 01, 2015, 01:18:41 pm »
The problem is exactly: What ever I do print on my printer, it may very well be OK to print banknotes as an sample object, or what ever. As long as I would not bring it "out into the wild" it would never be an issue nor would it be illegal. At least in Germany you could print as much money as you want. It is the will to use it as fake money that counts. That's what you can read here (sorry, exists just in german language http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__146.html

And there were rumours for ages that at least some, if not any printers for example from HP will send events (to the manufacturer?) for exchange toner being inserted and similar. Shame on me I did not check that when I changed my last toner then, must have been in 2005 or something like that. ;-)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 01:21:47 pm by GandalfDerGraue »
 

Offline Augustus

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #83 on: December 01, 2015, 01:37:16 pm »
And there isn't any legal requirement here to implement these spy dots on laserprinters, yet the manufacturers get away bugging us with them anyway  :--
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 01:43:12 pm by Augustus »
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Offline AF6LJ

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #84 on: December 01, 2015, 02:19:28 pm »
Law enforcement can track a person in several ways already mentioned here (credit cards, cameras, etc.). Regarding cell phones, there is no need for a fancy schmancy GPS turned on (that could easily be "turned off" by means of an actual tinfoil hat over it) - cellphone towers track a device's unique ID.

You can't get a mobile SIM card in this country without photo ID.

Holy Crap, and I thought it was bad here in the US.
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Offline AF6LJ

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #85 on: December 01, 2015, 02:24:53 pm »
And the problem is what exactly ?
This is a measure to block counterfeiting. So if you don't print money, clones of valuable art pieces or IS pamphlets : no problemo.
if you do : you deserve all that can be thrown at you.

simple. no ?

Sorry that doesn't wash on any level.
For one thing you cannot get the paper most currencies are printed on.
For another regarding artwork and printers, even someone as blind as I am can see the difference with a magnifying loop. Even if it is copy of a print.

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Offline madires

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #86 on: December 01, 2015, 02:45:57 pm »
Simple solution: hack the serial number.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #87 on: December 01, 2015, 03:41:24 pm »
And the problem is what exactly ?
This is a measure to block counterfeiting. So if you don't print money, clones of valuable art pieces or IS pamphlets : no problemo.
if you do : you deserve all that can be thrown at you.

simple. no ?
As always, it comes down to: quis custodet ipsos custodies? Barely a month goes by without me reading about some failure in that regard.
true, but i think nobody cares if i print a datasheet of a 2n2222 on my printer...
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Offline free_electron

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #88 on: December 01, 2015, 03:44:16 pm »
This is a measure to block counterfeiting. So if you don't print money, clones of valuable art pieces or IS pamphlets : no problemo.
No it isn't. Counterfeiters don't use laser printers, you cannot print credible counterfeits with that technology. Every people handling money on a daily basis will immediately see the difference.
huh. some dude got away with fake 25 dollar bills ... he even got change back when paying with em. and they couldn't sue him , since there is no 25 dollar bill it is not counterfeit. Stupidity has no boundaries..
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Offline free_electron

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #89 on: December 01, 2015, 03:49:52 pm »
And the problem is what exactly ?
This is a measure to block counterfeiting. So if you don't print money, clones of valuable art pieces or IS pamphlets : no problemo.
if you do : you deserve all that can be thrown at you.

simple. no ?


how about : i don't want to say anything. i am not interested in saying anything. I look at this world we live in and every day i think : i need to win the lottery , buy an island in the south pacific , become a dictator and mandate daily beach parties and sunset barbeques. Screw the rest of the so called 'civilisation'. We're no further than a bunch of baboons throwing sticks at each other , still believing in imaginary superbeings and going to war over some ideology. Worse : the god of abraham ( jews/ christianity ) and mohammed ( islam) is the SAME 'being'. And theses factions call each other 'unbelievers' .. how stupid is that. you all believe in the same thing and you still whack each others heads in ...

if all those who believe their religion is worth killing for would start with themselves... the world would be far better off.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 03:54:13 pm by free_electron »
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Offline madires

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #90 on: December 01, 2015, 04:01:57 pm »
As always, it comes down to: quis custodet ipsos custodies? Barely a month goes by without me reading about some failure in that regard.
true, but i think nobody cares if i print a datasheet of a 2n2222 on my printer...

Have you heard of those FBI lists on how to identify a possible bad guy? A foreigner with interest in electronics is very suspicious ;) That's what the three letter agencies are trying to accomplish with the mass data collection, i.e. get a list of people to watch.

The yellow dots don't make any sense any more with modern paper notes. All those special features can't be printed by any standard color printer. And any bad guy can do research about security and identification features in printing and avoid the "wrong" printers. The yellow dots are old and a lot of printer drivers for office class printers support custom watermarking. We catch only the stupid bad guys that way.
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #91 on: December 01, 2015, 04:04:58 pm »
if all those who believe their religion is worth killing for would start with themselves... the world would be far better off.

Can we generalize this to righteous assholes of any belief or opinion?

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #92 on: December 01, 2015, 04:14:15 pm »
if all those who believe their religion is worth killing for would start with themselves... the world would be far better off.

Can we generalize this to righteous assholes of any belief or opinion?

Well said.

I do resent the yellow dots, if for no other reason than that the cost of the ink is a tax on everyone to try to stop a few jerks who try to game the system.  I suspect that the total system cost has gone up, that we would be better off accepting the cost of the counterfeits.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #93 on: December 01, 2015, 04:30:18 pm »
if all those who believe their religion is worth killing for would start with themselves... the world would be far better off.

Can we generalize this to righteous assholes of any belief or opinion?
then no humans would remain. maybe the planet would be better off.
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Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #94 on: December 01, 2015, 04:54:37 pm »
Her in SA we need to have a valid identity and proof of residence to buy a SIM card.

Or go to the guy in the street and pay a little more to get one already registered. There must be some people with 20 000 registered SIM cards in their name, along with a few bank accounts and some loans as well,  That is why I check my credit score all the time, looking for those additional checks to find out your details to do this.

Sad thing is that the government has a portal where you can check out if some corrupt horror affairs official has "married" you to somebody so they can get a SA passport. No wonder you need a Visa to visit pretty much any country in the world, even fellow Commonwealth members which nominally are visa free.

http://www.dha.gov.za/status/Status.html

Now they want you to send a SMS so as to make this a profit generation centre....................
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #95 on: December 01, 2015, 05:12:46 pm »

huh. some dude got away with fake 25 dollar bills ... he even got change back when paying with em. and they couldn't sue him , since there is no 25 dollar bill it is not counterfeit. Stupidity has no boundaries..
Well, if we want to see how stupid it will be in 500 years, watch the movie
"idiocracy"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/
But then .... it will probably NOT take 500 years to stupidity take over the human race.
We are partially there already.

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Offline timb

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #96 on: December 01, 2015, 08:59:00 pm »

And the problem is what exactly ?
This is a measure to block counterfeiting. So if you don't print money, clones of valuable art pieces or IS pamphlets : no problemo.
if you do : you deserve all that can be thrown at you.

simple. no ?


how about : i don't want to say anything. i am not interested in saying anything. I look at this world we live in and every day i think : i need to win the lottery , buy an island in the south pacific , become a dictator and mandate daily beach parties and sunset barbeques. Screw the rest of the so called 'civilisation'. We're no further than a bunch of baboons throwing sticks at each other , still believing in imaginary superbeings and going to war over some ideology. Worse : the god of abraham ( jews/ christianity ) and mohammed ( islam) is the SAME 'being'. And theses factions call each other 'unbelievers' .. how stupid is that. you all believe in the same thing and you still whack each others heads in ...

if all those who believe their religion is worth killing for would start with themselves... the world would be far better off.

For someone so not interested in saying anything, you sure said a lot!

Wasn't your Amp Hour episode one of the longest?

You have very strong opinions (nothing wrong with that) and post all over this forum.

That little thing called freedom of speech allows you to do that. Yellow Dots might not affect *you* because the Internet is your outlet of expression. But it does affect those who print flyers, newsletters or otherwise use printed media to get their message out.

If you support one method of free speech, you have to support all methods.

Plus, it means you have to pay more for toner. Did I mention it degrades print quality too? Because it does.




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Offline VinzC

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #97 on: December 01, 2015, 09:47:08 pm »
I find it pretty selfish in debates over freedom of expression, rights, whatever when someone comes claiming he doesn't care for it. One person not interested in freedom of expression doesn't make it for the whole planet, on which everyone else still has to voice her/his point. As if it were enough to ask one fool in the place of billions of others... That always bugged me.

If you don't care because you've got nothing to hide or say, amen to that. But it only counts for you and you're not necessarily an example to follow.
 

Offline Barny

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #98 on: December 02, 2015, 09:26:34 am »
wow. 120k views  :o
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #99 on: December 02, 2015, 09:35:55 am »
wow. 120k views  :o

Probably Reynolds has a marketing campaign pointing to this video ;)

No doubt conspiracy theories facts sell!

We need a tinfoil emoticon btw
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #100 on: December 02, 2015, 10:15:19 am »
wow. 120k views  :o
For something that has been known for so many years, it is a surprise that this video gets so much attention.
 
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Offline GNU_Ninja

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #101 on: December 02, 2015, 10:59:21 am »
We need a tinfoil emoticon btw

<|:-/  :-+
 

Offline crispy_tofu

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #102 on: December 02, 2015, 11:10:33 am »
Maybe if you know the pattern of the yellow dots, you could print out more dots that would make the background a nice polka dot pattern...  :-+
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #103 on: December 02, 2015, 11:39:36 am »
I find it pretty selfish in debates over freedom of expression, rights, whatever when someone comes claiming he doesn't care for it. One person not interested in freedom of expression doesn't make it for the whole planet, on which everyone else still has to voice her/his point. As if it were enough to ask one fool in the place of billions of others... That always bugged me.
If you don't care because you've got nothing to hide or say, amen to that. But it only counts for you and you're not necessarily an example to follow.

Even if 99.999% of the world didn't want free speech, everyone should still get free speech because it's that 0.001% that will drag the world out of the dark ages and progress the human race.

Same thing for religion.
Even if 99.999% of the world was Islamic and wanted death for apostasy, that should not be the law, there should freedom from religion, because it's that 0.001% again who will drag the world out of the dark ages and progress the human race.

Freedom of speech is that important.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #104 on: December 02, 2015, 11:46:05 am »
I was, in a past life, a copier tech.  Some machines will copy money no troubles! (As a test, printout destroyed afterwards)  The yellow dots aren't even a secret!  Who cares! 

Would you say the same thing if you bought a digital camera and it encoded tiny yellow tracking dots onto every image?, and that was mandated by the government?
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #105 on: December 02, 2015, 12:46:41 pm »
This is a measure to block counterfeiting. So if you don't print money, clones of valuable art pieces or IS pamphlets : no problemo.
No it isn't. Counterfeiters don't use laser printers, you cannot print credible counterfeits with that technology. Every people handling money on a daily basis will immediately see the difference.
huh. some dude got away with fake 25 dollar bills ... he even got change back when paying with em. and they couldn't sue him , since there is no 25 dollar bill it is not counterfeit. Stupidity has no boundaries..
I love Steve Woz's joke pad of perforated $2 bills he gets printed and spends as legal tender  ;)

 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #106 on: December 02, 2015, 02:13:02 pm »
I was, in a past life, a copier tech.  Some machines will copy money no troubles! (As a test, printout destroyed afterwards)  The yellow dots aren't even a secret!  Who cares! 

Would you say the same thing if you bought a digital camera and it encoded tiny yellow tracking dots onto every image?, and that was mandated by the government?

There are two camps in this country when it comes to the privacy subject;
The I don't care camp they really do care but feel pressured into saying they don't care.
The I do care and try to minimize my traceable footprint camp. The latter gets a lot of bad press simply because they are informed and concerned, this group is made of ex hippies who thought government should be small and under the control of the public, what a concept...
Imagine that; a government by the people, and for the people.
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Offline NANDBlog

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #107 on: December 02, 2015, 02:28:26 pm »
Even if 99.999% of the world didn't want free speech, everyone should still get free speech because it's that 0.001% that will drag the world out of the dark ages and progress the human race.

Same thing for religion.
Even if 99.999% of the world was Islamic and wanted death for apostasy, that should not be the law, there should freedom from religion, because it's that 0.001% again who will drag the world out of the dark ages and progress the human race.

Freedom of speech is that important.
There is no freedom of speech, there probably never was. You cannot say whatever you want.
If you say offensive on the internet, they moderate you.
If you say that holocaust didn't happen in europe (this is a quote from the law, i personally belive the facts, that this happened and I encourage anyone to do the same) they can fine you or throw you to prison.
If someone said pretty much anything, some "religious guy"* (* self moderated, because the internet) can gun you down.
If you say something in the middle east ...*
If you say something against the propaganda in Russia, the black car will take you away.
If you are not PC in the US, they make you leave your job, and society throws you away pretty much. Search "First Amendment zone".
Scientific studies, saying that "blue people" have "shinier shoes" than "orange people" got censored, because they are offensive, it doesnt matter if it is true.
Even saying, that there shouldn't be freedom of speech cannot be said.

There is no freedom of speech. You are only supposed to say the same as the others.
 

Offline GNU_Ninja

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #108 on: December 02, 2015, 02:34:53 pm »


The good communists guide to surveillance :)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 02:40:03 pm by GNU_Ninja »
 

Offline rolycat

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #109 on: December 02, 2015, 02:54:43 pm »
I love Steve Woz's joke pad of perforated $2 bills he gets printed and spends as legal tender  ;)

Well, they are genuine currency, issued by the Federal Reserve.

In the clip the Woz claims that the ink isn't dry, the president may be wrong and the serial numbers are suspicious. I'm sure he is well aware that none of that is true.

Those $2 bills are nearly $3 each, plus the cost of getting them bound and perforated, so it's an expensive joke unless you're as rich as he is.
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #110 on: December 02, 2015, 03:08:27 pm »
I love Steve Woz's joke pad of perforated $2 bills he gets printed and spends as legal tender  ;)

Well, they are genuine currency, issued by the Federal Reserve.

In the clip the Woz claims that the ink isn't dry, the president may be wrong and the serial numbers are suspicious. I'm sure he is well aware that none of that is true.

Those $2 bills are nearly $3 each, plus the cost of getting them bound and perforated, so it's an expensive joke unless you're as rich as he is.

Yes I know. His printer just happens to be the Fed rather than a laserjet.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #111 on: December 02, 2015, 03:32:35 pm »
Yellow Dots might not affect *you* because the Internet is your outlet of expression. But it does affect those who print flyers, newsletters or otherwise use printed media to get their message out.

Show me ONE case where these yellow dots have affected freedom of speech. They don't prevent you from printing the document , handing it out or stapling it to a power pole.
'it could be used' , 'hypothetically they can track you'.

Hypothetically possession of a piece of wood and a nail could be construed as 'this guy could put the nail in the piece of wood and go on a killing rampage with this , let's jail him'.

i think people are overreacting.

how about this : any photo camera stores tons of data in the exif headers. Even down to geotagging information these days. there are even services where oyu can upload a picture to have it analysed and it will show you where and when the picture was taken and from what angle. run a few facial recognition processes and you can find out who and where. (facebook and apple icloud run automatical face detection algorithms to conveniently cluster your images by whomever is in it )

So what would be the solution ? go outside wearing a burka and sunglasses , just in case someone might snap you as a passerby in a picture is not very feasible, so : we should forbid anyone from owning camera's. just to prevent you from accidentally being recorded on one. let's also ban all image recognition software . For that matter, let's turn off the internet , wifi , cellphones and go back to using carrier pigeons. At least you can eat those when they arrive. That way nobody can track you.

There's a website where you can track dollar bills as they travel around the country. -gasp- now they are tracking that dollar bill you bought that soda can with that you didn't properly recycle.

Come on people, there is a lot of overreacting to this.

The thing is : they started doing this to be able to detect reproductions. if the dot's are there : printed on a laser. That's what that constellation is for.
As for the encoding of the serial number : camera's do that too. Even photocopiers do that.

None of that stuff blocks freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech is only impaired if an oppressive state uses that information to prosecute people. The information itself is harmless. It is how you use it.
If information were the problem : turn off the internet, burn all libraries , do not write anything down, do not make phone calls, don't talk to anyone. Then there will be no information.

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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #112 on: December 02, 2015, 03:32:50 pm »
There are two camps in this country when it comes to the privacy subject;
The I don't care camp they really do care but feel pressured into saying they don't care.
The I do care and try to minimize my traceable footprint camp. The latter gets a lot of bad press simply because they are informed and concerned, this group is made of ex hippies who thought government should be small and under the control of the public, what a concept...
Imagine that; a government by the people, and for the people.
There is a third camp I am in, and it has everything to do with NANDBlog's reply: the "I don't care" camp that finally realized everybody lives in a police state with varying degrees of censorship - either from the state itself or from your own living community, neighbors and peers.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #113 on: December 02, 2015, 03:33:34 pm »
I was, in a past life, a copier tech.  Some machines will copy money no troubles! (As a test, printout destroyed afterwards)  The yellow dots aren't even a secret!  Who cares! 

Would you say the same thing if you bought a digital camera and it encoded tiny yellow tracking dots onto every image?, and that was mandated by the government?
they do.  in the exif data. photocopiers do it too.
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Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #114 on: December 02, 2015, 04:18:30 pm »
If you say that holocaust didn't happen in europe (this is a quote from the law, i personally belive the facts, that this happened and I encourage anyone to do the same) they can fine you or throw you to prison.

My late mother was a camp survivor, along with my father. Not Jewish either, but had for Mom the bad misfortune to be born Polish, and Dad was a pilot who did not come back from a mission.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #115 on: December 02, 2015, 04:25:27 pm »
I was, in a past life, a copier tech.  Some machines will copy money no troubles! (As a test, printout destroyed afterwards)  The yellow dots aren't even a secret!  Who cares! 

Would you say the same thing if you bought a digital camera and it encoded tiny yellow tracking dots onto every image?, and that was mandated by the government?
they do.  in the exif data. photocopiers do it too.

EXIF can be trimmed off, yellow dots can not.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #116 on: December 02, 2015, 05:02:48 pm »
I was, in a past life, a copier tech.  Some machines will copy money no troubles! (As a test, printout destroyed afterwards)  The yellow dots aren't even a secret!  Who cares! 

Would you say the same thing if you bought a digital camera and it encoded tiny yellow tracking dots onto every image?, and that was mandated by the government?

There are two camps in this country when it comes to the privacy subject;
The I don't care camp they really do care but feel pressured into saying they don't care.
The I do care and try to minimize my traceable footprint camp. The latter gets a lot of bad press simply because they are informed and concerned, this group is made of ex hippies who thought government should be small and under the control of the public, what a concept...
Imagine that; a government by the people, and for the people.

Ex hippies aren't the only ones.  And only the hippies that woke up to reality are paying attention to their data.  The hippie movement had its own share of sheep and idiots.
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #117 on: December 02, 2015, 05:03:11 pm »
There are two camps in this country when it comes to the privacy subject;
The I don't care camp they really do care but feel pressured into saying they don't care.
The I do care and try to minimize my traceable footprint camp. The latter gets a lot of bad press simply because they are informed and concerned, this group is made of ex hippies who thought government should be small and under the control of the public, what a concept...
Imagine that; a government by the people, and for the people.
There is a third camp I am in, and it has everything to do with NANDBlog's reply: the "I don't care" camp that finally realized everybody lives in a police state with varying degrees of censorship - either from the state itself or from your own living community, neighbors and peers.
NandBlog has a point, but every police state can be torn down from within if the people have the will. This has slowed the progression of the US police state, and in time will begin to reverse it and freedom like we had before 1900 will return.

Every chance I get I STICK IT TO THE MAN..
Sue AF6LJ
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Offline AF6LJ

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #118 on: December 02, 2015, 05:08:25 pm »
I was, in a past life, a copier tech.  Some machines will copy money no troubles! (As a test, printout destroyed afterwards)  The yellow dots aren't even a secret!  Who cares! 

Would you say the same thing if you bought a digital camera and it encoded tiny yellow tracking dots onto every image?, and that was mandated by the government?

There are two camps in this country when it comes to the privacy subject;
The I don't care camp they really do care but feel pressured into saying they don't care.
The I do care and try to minimize my traceable footprint camp. The latter gets a lot of bad press simply because they are informed and concerned, this group is made of ex hippies who thought government should be small and under the control of the public, what a concept...
Imagine that; a government by the people, and for the people.

Ex hippies aren't the only ones.  And only the hippies that woke up to reality are paying attention to their data.  The hippie movement had its own share of sheep and idiots.
Yes it did, the phrase; "Tune In Turn On and Drop Out." had a double meaning. You are right about non-hippies waking up back then, My grandparents who at one time believed FDR could walk on water and turn led into gold woke up in the early sixties. Most of the people in the gun culture of the day were already awake.

They can only go as far as we let them, people need to remember that.
Sue AF6LJ
Test Equipment Addict, And Proud Of It.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #119 on: December 02, 2015, 05:32:59 pm »
just watched it maybe too late but...
thank you very much sir! you just teach terrorists on how to erase their traces...
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #120 on: December 02, 2015, 05:39:39 pm »
Show me ONE case where these yellow dots have affected freedom of speech. They don't prevent you from printing the document , handing it out or stapling it to a power pole.
'it could be used' , 'hypothetically they can track you'.
There's probably one somewhere... but that's missing the point.

You should be against this sort of thing ON PRINCIPLE. Just because.

Let's not forget that governments don't have any rights. None whatsoever.

They have "powers", granted to them by the people.
 

Offline Augustus

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #121 on: December 02, 2015, 05:50:16 pm »
just watched it maybe too late but...
thank you very much sir! you just teach terrorists on how to erase their traces...

Terrorists? Thought the times of printed terrorist manifestos were long gone... Nowadays, they are apparantely busy fiddling with their playstations  :palm:

It may backfire on whistleblowers, who, for example, discover some gross unethical practices in their company and hand the evidence secretly to the press. If it gets somehow backtraced to their cubicles laserjet, they may get fired. Never heard of such a case, though. They would use USB sticks anyway  :-DD
Greetings from the Black Forest, Germany
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #122 on: December 02, 2015, 05:50:53 pm »
Show me ONE case where these yellow dots have affected freedom of speech. They don't prevent you from printing the document , handing it out or stapling it to a power pole.
'it could be used' , 'hypothetically they can track you'.
There's probably one somewhere... but that's missing the point.

You should be against this sort of thing ON PRINCIPLE. Just because.

Let's not forget that governments don't have any rights. None whatsoever.

They have "powers", granted to them by the people.
our Constitution sets limits on what government can do and sets those items which government is responsible for such as protecting the borders.
Sue AF6LJ
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Offline technix

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #123 on: December 02, 2015, 06:03:22 pm »
As of now I think adding a little bit of yellow background to every single color laser printout may be the best way to obfuscate the code. Or someone figure out the internals of some popular color laser printer and write open source firmware that does not apply the code. Or someone create a new open source hardware color laser printer (which probably have to accept some name brand cartridge.)
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #124 on: December 02, 2015, 06:27:23 pm »
Is there an online pattern generator?  I have a few things I'd like to attach from now on.

Offline Brutte

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #125 on: December 02, 2015, 06:29:17 pm »
Surprised with yellow dots? That is because you have not read the EULA.
It clearly states (paragraph 452, point 17) that either you agree on surveillance or forget printing.

When you pick first option then where does the whining come from?
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #126 on: December 02, 2015, 08:18:35 pm »
I was, in a past life, a copier tech.  Some machines will copy money no troubles! (As a test, printout destroyed afterwards)  The yellow dots aren't even a secret!  Who cares! 

Would you say the same thing if you bought a digital camera and it encoded tiny yellow tracking dots onto every image?, and that was mandated by the government?
they do.  in the exif data. photocopiers do it too.

EXIF can be trimmed off, yellow dots can not.

there is also subchannel encoding in the jpeg stream....

http://www.tsi.lv/sites/default/files/editor/science/Research_journals/Computer/2004/V1/article4.pdf

http://www.adptools.com/en/signmyimage-durability.html

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Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline calzap

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #127 on: December 02, 2015, 09:08:24 pm »
Is the following feasible?  Develop an add-on to the printer drivers of color laser printers that can add yellow dots to change the encoded info that is printed.   The driver add-on would use a digital image of a scan of a print-out from the same printer in order to determine placement of the additional dots.  This method would be strictly additive; it could not remove dots.

There are several ways the above could be defeated which may already be in use.  One would be the use of a check-sum or similar method that is encoded into yellow dots and printed elsewhere on the page.  Or the positioning of the groups of dots that carry the serial number info could be moved around on succeeding pages by the chip that does the dot encoding.

Mike in California
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #128 on: December 02, 2015, 09:12:53 pm »
I was, in a past life, a copier tech.  Some machines will copy money no troubles! (As a test, printout destroyed afterwards)  The yellow dots aren't even a secret!  Who cares! 

Would you say the same thing if you bought a digital camera and it encoded tiny yellow tracking dots onto every image?, and that was mandated by the government?
they do.  in the exif data. photocopiers do it too.

EXIF can be trimmed off, yellow dots can not.

there is also subchannel encoding in the jpeg stream....

http://www.tsi.lv/sites/default/files/editor/science/Research_journals/Computer/2004/V1/article4.pdf

http://www.adptools.com/en/signmyimage-durability.html

There is the technology, but AFAIK, so far no governments mandate the use of this technology, nor any DSLR/DC can do this on its own.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #129 on: December 02, 2015, 10:36:33 pm »
EXIF can be trimmed off, yellow dots can not.
can
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #130 on: December 03, 2015, 09:00:14 am »
just watched it maybe too late but...
thank you very much sir! you just teach terrorists on how to erase their traces...
BS.
"Terrorist organizations" don't care if you track the serial numbers of their printers.

Terrorist organizations are a governmental tool created indirectly or directly by some governments.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/british-labor-leader-corbyn-isis-created-by-uk-and-us/5477982

Al Quaeda was created, funded, trained and armed by the US government to fight russia.

We don't care and we are not responsible if the governments let their shady armies go out of control.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 09:23:20 am by f4eru »
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #131 on: December 03, 2015, 09:30:59 am »
Terrorist organizations are a governmental tool created indirectly or directly by some governments.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/british-labor-leader-corbyn-isis-created-by-uk-and-us/5477982
with only less than 100 posts and a peculiar name... you are brighter than i thought! ;)
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #132 on: December 03, 2015, 11:12:28 am »
I was, in a past life, a copier tech.  Some machines will copy money no troubles! (As a test, printout destroyed afterwards)  The yellow dots aren't even a secret!  Who cares! 
Would you say the same thing if you bought a digital camera and it encoded tiny yellow tracking dots onto every image?, and that was mandated by the government?
they do.  in the exif data. photocopiers do it too.

a) EXIF data does not impact the image, it is not lossy steganography.
b) EXIF data can be removed and viewed with any photo imager software. Heck, even Windows Explorer.
c) EXIF data is not and was not government mandated
d) EXIF data is part of the JPG file format specification, which many professional camera users avoid because they use RAW mode which does not have EXIF data in the image.
e) EXIF data does not have the serial number (although that's possible I believe, but I've never seen it, as it adds no value to the user). EXIF is not designed to track users. Some modern ones have GPS, but most products let you disable that.
f) EXIF is designed to provide very useful info to the user, unlike yellow dots that have zero value for the user and actually degrade the image.

So nope. Try again.
And my question was if the camera added yellow tacking dots or something else to the actual image.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 11:54:15 am by EEVblog »
 

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Offline McBryce

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #134 on: December 03, 2015, 12:33:39 pm »
What ever happened to the time honoured art of writing ransom notes using random newspaper clippings. Printing them is just lazy if you ask me.

McBryce.
 

Offline GNU_Ninja

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #135 on: December 03, 2015, 12:40:51 pm »
What ever happened to the time honoured art of writing ransom notes using random newspaper clippings. Printing them is just lazy if you ask me.

McBryce.

Cut up newspapers, how quaint  :)

http://www.ransomizer.com/  This is the age of the information superhighway you know  ;D
 

Offline Chris Jones

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #136 on: December 03, 2015, 12:55:12 pm »
Paid by cash? Search nearby ATM record data for that and previous days for cash withdrawls.
If I were an authoritarian government, I would make sure that banknote serial numbers are scanned when dispensed from the ATM, and linked to the account number (and photo if desired). It is a feature available on some existing ATMs which accept deposits and re-dispense the notes to other customers. Supposedly the feature was added to investigate cases of customers receiving counterfeit notes, but as a byproduct it records which person has which cash notes.

I guess you could buy the printer with coins!

 

Offline McBryce

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #137 on: December 03, 2015, 01:11:02 pm »
What ever happened to the time honoured art of writing ransom notes using random newspaper clippings. Printing them is just lazy if you ask me.

McBryce.

Cut up newspapers, how quaint  :)

http://www.ransomizer.com/  This is the age of the information superhighway you know  ;D

Ehhh... Don't I have to print that randomized note on my own printer (with yellow dots) when it's done?

McBryce.
 

Offline GNU_Ninja

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #138 on: December 03, 2015, 01:38:02 pm »
What ever happened to the time honoured art of writing ransom notes using random newspaper clippings. Printing them is just lazy if you ask me.

McBryce.

Cut up newspapers, how quaint  :)

http://www.ransomizer.com/  This is the age of the information superhighway you know  ;D

Ehhh... Don't I have to print that randomized note on my own printer (with yellow dots) when it's done?

McBryce.

No problem, just use someone else's printer, I usually use the printer in the HR department and my line managers workstation for nefarious activity  ;D
 

Offline adprom

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #139 on: December 03, 2015, 02:08:59 pm »
So I did something for fun - I printed a test page out of my fuji and then scanned it back in at high res. With the high res image, I then used paint and simply used the fill with colour icon.... What did it reveal, none other than the pattern all over the page!  Kinda cool!
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #140 on: December 03, 2015, 03:39:34 pm »
exif tag id is 16 bits value, only a few that have been populated. there are plenty of room for user/manufacturer/governmental specific data that can be held classified from the mere mortal's knowledge.

a) EXIF data does not impact the image, it is not lossy steganography.
so does not the pattern in the print out

b) EXIF data can be removed and viewed with any photo imager software. Heck, even Windows Explorer.
so can the pattern, its now possible through knowledge. thanks to this thread and the accompanying video. ;)

c) EXIF data is not and was not government mandated
probably one out of the 2^16 Exif's Tag ID can be... through governmental and manufaturers / Exif committes closed table meeting.

d) EXIF data is part of the JPG file format specification, which many professional camera users avoid because they use RAW mode which does not have EXIF data in the image.
JPG was born 1991, Exif was born 1998, obviously the original JPG was not supporting Exif. RAW is manufacturer's specific format, what metadata contained inside is anyone's guesses.. and err.. most professional users (with senses) that are not obliged to shoot RAW will shoot in JPG..

e) EXIF data does not have the serial number (although that's possible I believe, but I've never seen it, as it adds no value to the user). EXIF is not designed to track users. Some modern ones have GPS, but most products let you disable that.
in current Exif specification.... 0xa431 is tag for serial number, 0xa214 is subject location, 0x8825 is GPS info...
http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/TagNames/EXIF.html
...your own serial number may not be usefull to you until you lost the device, hoping one day a picture popped out in the net with exif  "0xa431:your serial number" in it...

And my question was if the camera added yellow tacking dots or something else to the actual image.
very unlikely the "real finished product" will be smeared with this spy info, just as its very unlikely (through common sense) that the yellow pattern will be printed on the printed out image or dark area...

just think of the printed area on the paper (area that are smeared with inks from image/document input) as the JPG compressed data storing imagery, and white area on the paper (with the yellow pattern) as the Exif metadata area in the JPG file.

edit: an interesting experiment should be fun. print a full black (or full color) page, borderless if supported and see where the pattern will be...
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 01:58:34 am by Mechatrommer »
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline xarragon

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #141 on: December 03, 2015, 10:36:09 pm »
Camera EXIF data is easy to remove, despite how many people forget it. A more subtle threat is the CMOS sensor noise itself. This topic has been researched for years and is making inroads into practical use for law enforcement. It works for fingerprinting, for confirming that some output was made by a certain device.

However, my guess is that it would be trivial to actually encode the same data found in the yellow dots into the background noise. Encrypting the data would make it appear as random noise, further hindering detection. Another approach would simply be to require every image sensor produced to have a sensor noise profile stored, or register a noise profile from firmware for every complete camera sold. Since most firmware probably already samples this information for image processing purposes it would be fairly trivial.


Mobile devices already has a traceable unique device ID hardcoded into the radio transceiver system, the IMSI number. This number is used to blacklist stolen phones etc. In the US, all smartphones sold in 2015 now have remote wipe capabilities: http://www.ctia.org/policy-initiatives/voluntary-guidelines/smartphone-anti-theft-voluntary-commitment

Last but not least, even the way you write can be fingerprinted as well. So even if your printer is not ratting you out, the way you punctuate, choose words etc. will, given a large enough sample set. This was highlighted in the story about Edward Snowden's leaks.
 

Offline wagon

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #142 on: December 05, 2015, 11:03:01 pm »
So, the long and the short of it, we're screwed either-way if our governments do the wrong thing.
Hiding from the missus, she doesn't understand.
 

Online Bud

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #143 on: December 06, 2015, 02:02:56 am »
A relevant thread from ExifTool forum on using Exif data by law enforcement

http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/exiftool/forum/index.php/topic,4693.msg22406.html#msg22406
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Offline GNU_Ninja

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #144 on: December 08, 2015, 04:37:05 pm »
So, the long and the short of it, we're screwed either-way if our governments do the wrong thing.

If?  :)
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #145 on: December 08, 2015, 04:48:48 pm »
So, the long and the short of it, we're screwed either-way if our governments do the wrong thing.

If?  :)

Living in the US that would be a very small if.
Sue AF6LJ
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Online Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #825 - Your Printer Is Spying On You!
« Reply #147 on: December 15, 2015, 12:45:02 am »
Off-topic I know, but...


Antiradiation?  The symbol is for radioactive situations.  If this piece of headwear is good for gamma rays, I'm sure NASA would be a big customer - as well as the global nuclear industry.  On the other hand - are they interpreting electromagnetic radiation that causes my AM receiver to respond as radio-active?

Antiodor?  I've never really noticed headwear as having odour problems, but I may have been lucky - so, yeah, ok.

Antibacterial?  Well, I suppose it's a natural companion to antiodor.  I think it would have a wider market if it was anti nits.

Easy Maintenance  Chuck it into the washing machine ... Good to know.



On topic -

I notice the site listing printers does not seem to feature Samsung models.

I can confirm that my Samsung C1860FW MFP has no apparent coding, even under 4x magnification.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 12:47:21 am by Brumby »
 


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