Author Topic: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag  (Read 16130 times)

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Offline max666

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2015, 11:00:23 pm »
Dave you goofed up the "Digilent PowerBric:"-link, here and on YT.

That Elektrosluch 3 thing was more fun than I expected. But € 90.00 is a little steep, if you ask me, for something that simple. Have to build that up my self for fun.
 

Offline Dave Turner

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2015, 11:58:56 pm »
Hi Dave

What's your beef with the white silk screen?  For my sight it is one of the clearest silk screens I've seen. I could easily read everything. Surely clarity is a good thing.

Regards

Dave
 

Offline CrashO

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2015, 12:03:48 am »
What's your beef with the white silk screen soldermask?  For my sight it is one of the clearest silk screens I've seen. I could easily read everything. Surely clarity is a good thing.
Probably the same reason I hate them (and black mask) too.
It's hard to see the traces.. Seeing easily where traces are going is more valuable to me than crispy clean silkscreen.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 12:20:03 am by CrashO »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2015, 12:12:59 am »
The remote PC reset thing is a neat idea, but That wifi module isn't going to work well with that solid groundplane behind it.

Could also have saved themselves some fiddly soldering by combining the pin headers into a larger one.
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Offline v8dave

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2015, 12:18:08 am »
It's a WHITE soldermask with BLACK silkscreen not white silkscreen :)

For final boards it's fine but for prototyping I prefer the standard green as you can still see the tracks.
 

Offline hcglitte

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2015, 12:37:53 am »
Anyone noticed the ground plane beneath the WiFi module...? If you are reading this Ben, you should remove the ground plane below the antenna and also at some distance to it from the sides.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2015, 12:40:38 am »
Dave, that "record player" is actually guts from an old talking doll. My sister had one exactly like that when we were kids - you pushed a button on the back and it said something, depending on the record that was in. You could even get different records for it with songs and what not.

 

Offline v8dave

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2015, 12:47:58 am »
Anyone noticed the ground plane beneath the WiFi module...? If you are reading this Ben, you should remove the ground plane below the antenna and also at some distance to it from the sides.

I saw that too. The range will be reduced quite a bit if he doesn't remove this around the antenna area.
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2015, 12:56:31 am »
Good Stuff from one of the 2%
:)
Sue AF6LJ
Test Equipment Addict, And Proud Of It.
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2015, 01:08:36 am »
Dave, that "record player" is actually guts from an old talking doll. My sister had one exactly like that when we were kids - you pushed a button on the back and it said something, depending on the record that was in. You could even get different records for it with songs and what not.
They use to sell those here as a Bag of Laughs.
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Offline Dave Turner

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2015, 01:17:09 am »
Ok I see your point regarding the 'hidden' tracks whilst developing a 2 layer prototype.

However, for a multilayer board the comment is less relevant as much is hidden internally. Also it strikes me as sour grapes 'cos' it makes it harder to reverse engineer visually.

 >:D


 

Offline Someone

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2015, 02:22:38 am »
The EM sniffer is picking up the change in frequency/duty cycle of the camera power supply as its dumping data to the drive/flash, there are big power demands for data writes.
 

Offline kindiana

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2015, 04:20:17 am »
Designer of Remoteboot here, the ground plane now has a cutout under the antenna, thank you all for the feedback.
 

Offline tpw_rules

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2015, 07:33:57 am »
The Elektrosluch has been known to the telephone industry for a while. The telephone-ish thing is their equivalent. The real tool is the other box, which generates a warbling tone to put on ethernet, telephone wire, etc. This turns the wire into a giant antenna and following the warbling with the pointy phone as the wire snakes in walls and through pipes is super easy. I have a set from my uncle in the trade and it was invaluable trying to label breakers in our ancient house.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 07:38:25 am by tpw_rules »
 

Offline SteveLy

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2015, 08:04:08 am »
The minidisc was one of the best portable recorders in its day. Kind of a Zoom H2n of the late 1990s, early 2000s. I've recorded a few gigs with one and it did a great job when it worked. Sound quality was amazing for a small device (even just with the small external stereo mic that came with it). But the discs (and/or the read/write mechanism) became unreliable after a while and you'd end up with unreadable chunks of data on your recordings, which was most disappointing.

That Slovakian RF snoop box is cool. :)
 

Offline con-f-use

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2015, 09:07:47 am »
The maximum output capacity thing could be, because the USB standard only allows 10uF of capacity. I suspect it's an inrush and fuse thing.
 

Offline boffin

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2015, 10:57:27 am »
The Bzz Bzz Bzz, isn't the line to the LED, it's the bulk data-write to the SD Card.
 

Offline aveekbh

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2015, 05:08:28 pm »
The Bzz Bzz Bzz, isn't the line to the LED, it's the bulk data-write to the SD Card.

The SD clock will be 50 to 100-odd MHz, so it's quite likely that that's what we're hearing. The LED current draw wouldn't likely emit so loudly (pun intended).
 

Offline station240

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2015, 06:47:48 pm »
The remote PC reset thing is a neat idea, but That wifi module isn't going to work well with that solid groundplane behind it.

Could also have saved themselves some fiddly soldering by combining the pin headers into a larger one.

If you've seen inside a PC, you'd know the for the wires for the various buttons/leds are on individual 2-3 pin headers. So a single large header is in fact harder to connect into, as you can't get easy grip on the plugs. Also less prone to install mistakes, as you can rewire the various buttons one at a time.

My own PC motherboard came with a piggyback header, which you plug all the loose 2-3 pin plugs into, then plug the single large one into the motherboard.


I too liked the Elektrosluch 3, though I'm more interested in seeing if it could be used to make a proper EMF compliance tool. I'll have a dig through my inductor pile to see if I have any suitable ones.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2015, 07:22:26 pm »
Just look for any ferrite inductors with open magnetic systems, and anything from around 1mH upwards will work, current capacity not too important. If you can only get PC power supply ones try them, and if no joy simply rewind the core with as many turns of 30 SWG or thinner wire as it can hold.

The buzzing on the camera is likely from the data blocks being written to the card, the amplifier demodulating the envelope of the write blocks, demodulating the RF signal.
 

Offline ConKbot

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2015, 06:26:48 am »
Just look for any ferrite inductors with open magnetic systems, and anything from around 1mH upwards will work, current capacity not too important. If you can only get PC power supply ones try them, and if no joy simply rewind the core with as many turns of 30 SWG or thinner wire as it can hold.

The buzzing on the camera is likely from the data blocks being written to the card, the amplifier demodulating the envelope of the write blocks, demodulating the RF signal.
The amplifier used is a FET input one(more immune to RFI compared to a bipolar input) and it looks like it is being run as a low pass filter. If you really wanted to catch higher frequency RF stuff, throw a RF schottky diode(1N5711 maybe? from a very very brief digikey search) on the input as an envelope detector, and you should be able to pick up even more stuff. With the stereo jack sticking out of the front, and a connector with enough space in the housing, you could perhaps make a plug in module to extend the AM demod range of it.
 

Offline PinheadBE

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2015, 08:04:42 am »
Dave, that "bag of laughs", you HAVE to make it work!

Why? Because, when you have, you can then turn the small recorded disc on its other side (just like eldery people used to do with their vinyl records, eons ago), and listen what's on thatside.

Just get Sagan out of the room first, because it's a bit more.... "adult oriented"....  :popcorn:
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Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2015, 08:17:58 am »
Dave, that "bag of laughs", you HAVE to make it work!

I had one of those bags when I was a kid.  :popcorn:

Why? Because, when you have, you can then turn the small recorded disc on its other side  and listen what's on thatside.

Just get Sagan out of the room first, because it's a bit more.... "adult oriented"....  :popcorn:

Urban legend? Not gonna happen - the disk only has one side (just look at the disc in the video).
 

Offline fubar.gr

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2015, 01:59:30 pm »
That minidisc player is one of the late NetMD models released from 2001 onwards.

You could connect it via USB and essentially drag and drop MP3 files into it. In reality it was a bit more complicated than that, the included software would convert the MP3 to ATRAC and then transfer it to the disc, but the whole process was very fast.

You could fit 4 CD's worth of play time into a single minidisc at good sound quality, or the equivalent of 8 CDs at OK quality. And minidiscs were tiny, you could fit several in your pocket. Also, would last forever with a single AA battery, more than some modern mp3 players on their internal Li ion battery.

All in all, it was one of the best portable music players of the time. There were solid state storage solutions back then, but they were either ridiculously expensive, or they couldn't hold more than a hundred of megabytes worth of music, or they sucked in other areas, such as interface, build quality, battery time, etc.

Offline mrkva

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2015, 08:53:29 pm »
Hey guys, creator of Elektrosluch here. Hit me up if you have any ideas how the device can be improved. It will always remain open source for future generations! :))
I am now comparing different opamps, and getting quite different "range" with LME49720. It is slightly lower noise, but also it also catches different signals then OPA2134. To be more exact, it catches frequencies which don't even appear with OPA2134 (I would expect them to be there but maybe lower - as an effecto of LP filtering). Don't really know why. Wonder if anyone has a explanation.
 

Offline open loop

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2015, 09:35:27 pm »
The Electroslutch reminds me of what happened when I turned on my ZX Spectrum while the AM radio was on. Didn't the legendary Bill Herd say something about how a computer did not "sound" right during an amp hour because of its interference on an AM radio.

Great work on it though would be interested in playing with the circuit myself when I get time.
 

Offline rollatorwieltje

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2015, 11:36:52 pm »
Why would you use that Remoteboot thing when you can do the same with Wake on Lan? Many routers have it in their web interface. To my surprise I can even wake up my Macbook via wifi (from sleep mode, didn't try complete power off).
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2015, 12:48:06 am »
Hey guys, creator of Elektrosluch here. Hit me up if you have any ideas how the device can be improved. It will always remain open source for future generations! :))
Built-in speaker would be the obvious one

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Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2015, 04:28:12 am »
Why would you use that Remoteboot thing when you can do the same with Wake on Lan? Many routers have it in their web interface. To my surprise I can even wake up my Macbook via wifi (from sleep mode, didn't try complete power off).

WOL depends on sending a "magic packet" which is not transmittable out of the LAN. It is an Ethernet packet with the MAC of the card, and not TCP/IP, so will not traverse a router. Enabling a router to respond to WAN commands is not considered a good idea, there you really do want a very good security protocol, otherwise scans will find it and things happen afterwards.

Sleep as well ( depending on the actual level) just means the screen is off, and the system is running at the lowest speed the processor can run at, along with all RAM swapped out and most applications not given any processing time, the processor only responding to interrupts and the hard drive being commanded to idle. Low power state, not off.

I hope the OP is implementing very good security on the device, as it will either be open to packets via a DMZ on a router, or will be internet visible. Checking the sending side is within an acceptable network block ( reduce the sites that can attack to the IP block of the main user) along with using a good long password or PKI communications are really needed. There are enough vulnerable IOT devices out there already.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2015, 04:36:56 am »
Hey guys, creator of Elektrosluch here. Hit me up if you have any ideas how the device can be improved. It will always remain open source for future generations! :))
Built-in speaker would be the obvious one

+1
 

Offline bitwelder

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2015, 06:57:13 am »
Designer of Remoteboot here, the ground plane now has a cutout under the antenna, thank you all for the feedback.
How about making a version of the RemoteBoot with a different variant of the ESP8266 (perhaps the ESP-07) that has the antenna connector, so to bring the antenna outside the PC case?
 

Offline rollatorwieltje

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2015, 08:06:29 am »
Why would you use that Remoteboot thing when you can do the same with Wake on Lan? Many routers have it in their web interface. To my surprise I can even wake up my Macbook via wifi (from sleep mode, didn't try complete power off).

WOL depends on sending a "magic packet" which is not transmittable out of the LAN. It is an Ethernet packet with the MAC of the card, and not TCP/IP, so will not traverse a router. Enabling a router to respond to WAN commands is not considered a good idea, there you really do want a very good security protocol, otherwise scans will find it and things happen afterwards.

Sleep as well ( depending on the actual level) just means the screen is off, and the system is running at the lowest speed the processor can run at, along with all RAM swapped out and most applications not given any processing time, the processor only responding to interrupts and the hard drive being commanded to idle. Low power state, not off.

I hope the OP is implementing very good security on the device, as it will either be open to packets via a DMZ on a router, or will be internet visible. Checking the sending side is within an acceptable network block ( reduce the sites that can attack to the IP block of the main user) along with using a good long password or PKI communications are really needed. There are enough vulnerable IOT devices out there already.

Dave said he uses a VPN, so I assume he can already securely access his lab network from home. That's how I used it. My router was also a VPN endpoint, so I could open a VPN to it from anywhere, log in on the web interface and send the WoL packet. I used it to wake up a powered off (really off, as in shut down) desktop pc via ethernet.

I was just surprised I could also wake my laptop, I thought WoL wasn't supported over wifi.
 

Offline mrkva

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2015, 06:15:58 pm »
Hey guys, creator of Elektrosluch here. Hit me up if you have any ideas how the device can be improved. It will always remain open source for future generations! :))
Built-in speaker would be the obvious one

+1

Thanks for the suggestion Dave and Mike! Any suggestions for low-part-count & high fidelity solutions for amp+speaker? I experimented with LM386, but I'd like to go more hi-fi with this one (more like "laptop speaker quality" - i don't expect wonders). Probably some monolithic Class D solution would be optimal for the amp, since battery life is important to me.
 

Offline jancumps

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2015, 08:25:39 pm »
The on-board audio can be simple, just a tactical tiny mini speaker. You can always keep the audio-out plug that's already there for the audiophile user  ;)
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2015, 09:36:05 pm »
The on-board audio can be simple, just a tactical tiny mini speaker. You can always keep the audio-out plug that's already there for the audiophile user  ;)

I imagine the stereo sound is useful to more than audiophiles...

 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2015, 09:43:29 pm »
... like an EEVblogger.
 

Offline sakujo7

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2015, 01:13:32 am »
Just look for any ferrite inductors with open magnetic systems, and anything from around 1mH upwards will work, current capacity not too important.

Can confirm that lower inductors work.

I "built" a "poor man's" version by attaching a 470uH wire-wound inductor to a uCurrent (nA range, effectively a x100 amplifier with 10k input impedance). Output directly connected to headphones, though a series pot is a good idea if you value your hearing.
 

Offline mrkva

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2015, 07:01:05 am »
From my experience higher values have more sensitivity & different frequency responses. 22mH/33mH seems to be optimal in combo with OPA2134 opamp, but I am also working on bigger hand-made antennas.
BTW if anyone builds one, I'd love to see some pics!
 

Offline Seekonk

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2015, 08:12:43 pm »
That ultrasonic transducer amplifier circuit that was mailed in with questions reminded me of a question on another forum.  At least I hope that is this mailbag.  That circuit has an interesting property.  This other poster wasn't getting the gain that he expected from the resistor combination of the first inverting amplifier.  It wasn't the op amp and everything was working as it should.  I love simple circuits like this that have a built in feature.  Can you guess what it is?
 

Offline ondrejko0102

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #40 on: January 01, 2016, 12:15:30 pm »
Hi, I am from Slovakia too. Elektrosluch are two words - "Elektro" and "sluch" meaning "Electrical" "hearing" :-)
PS: Happy New Year!?
 

Offline harnon

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Re: EEVblog #827 - Mailbag
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2019, 09:36:01 am »
Just randomly watched this mailbag, @36:22 Dave comes within about 1mm of slicing his finger in half using the Crocodile Dundee knife :phew:
 


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