Author Topic: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown  (Read 47987 times)

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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2016, 03:46:42 pm »
One aspect is: For maintaining fast sampling.

Why oscilloscopes need deep acquisition memory by Joel Woodward, Senior Product Manager, Oscilloscopes,  Agilent Technologies.
There he tell also two other reasons.

While that is correct in principle, you have to see this in the context of situation, which here is about low-end scopes with low bandwidth and low sample rates which all come with somewhat reasonable amounts of sample memory. The HMO1202 has 2GSa/s and 2Mpts, which should be plenty for what a scope of that category is used for, and because of the low sample rate there's little benefit having excessive amounts of sample memory available, especially when (like with Rigol scopes) they don't come with a proper search function and can't even be used for FFT (which on all Rigol scopes uses just a few thousand points which is a bad joke).

Putting 50Mpts or more of sample memory in a measly 2GSa/s scope is silly and only serves marketing purposes. For an low-end entry-level scope, as long as the sample memory is in Mpts and not just kpts then it should be fine. It's a different story in the mid-range sector though, where bandwidths increase to 1GHz and sample rates to 4GSa/s, plus scopes start to come with more advanced functionality.

Quote
But this whole question is perhaps so importaant that somewhere is good to ppen thread for: Why oscilloscopes need deep acquisition memory but in some cases 10 sample memory lenght is enough.

I don't think this really needs further discussion. As far as I remember even Dave has explained this long ago, and there are also lots of other sources which explain the relation of sample rate and sample memory. It's not really complicated.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 03:50:41 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2016, 04:12:07 pm »

One aspect is: For maintaining fast sampling.

Why oscilloscopes need deep acquisition memory by Joel Woodward, Senior Product Manager, Oscilloscopes,  Agilent Technologies.
There he tell also two other reasons.

My TDS210 had 2500 pts/channel but one feature I found to be very useful and used by default is the min/max ('envelope' in Dave's R&S video) capturing mode. It shows the min/max value that were observed in each of the 2500 time slots. This way I could tell if the signal has short spikes that would not otherwise be captured.

BTW, anybody knows how the per time slot min/max values are computed? Is done the min/max done in the analog or digital domain?
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #77 on: January 24, 2016, 05:44:41 pm »

Putting 50Mpts or more of sample memory in a measly 2GSa/s scope is silly and only serves marketing purposes.

Equivelent is that perhaps then 25M for 1GSa/s scope?

Silly perhaps but do this in attached image even with this 1GSa/s samplerate using less memory or example with this R&S. Just, no way - end of game. What next,  job is still waiting to do.

Silly, is it. Only for marketing?  Do you really think that if you do not need something it is true for all others who of course are wrong because you know what is silly and what is not.

Is this something what is not normal oscilloscope use. If it is not normal use, define what is normal use I do this kind of things many times.
(it was ultra simply crap cycle-cycle  jitter (or something like it)  check for 10ms period 20ns pulses with also infinite persistence running long time).

Many times I miss lot of more memory just for keep full samplerate with low timebases. Other way is segmented acquisition.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 05:49:02 pm by rf-loop »
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Online Kleinstein

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #78 on: January 24, 2016, 05:54:37 pm »
1 or 2 MPts of memory is allready enough for most applications. There are allways a few cases one might want more - but that is rare. It also depends on how well the scope is setting the sampling rate (some scopes only have a few coarce steps like 1 Gs/s and than 50 Ms/s). With fine adjustment and suitable filters (HW or SW) you often can live with less memory, especially with repetitive signals.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #79 on: January 24, 2016, 07:29:11 pm »

Putting 50Mpts or more of sample memory in a measly 2GSa/s scope is silly and only serves marketing purposes.

Equivelent is that perhaps then 25M for 1GSa/s scope?

Indeed.

Quote
Silly perhaps but do this in attached image even with this 1GSa/s samplerate using less memory or example with this R&S. Just, no way - end of game. What next,  job is still waiting to do.

Not really. You may not be able to do a 40000x zoom into a signal but that doesn't mean ther's no other way to get the same result (I'm not even sure why you want to do that in the example you gave, aside from just showing off that you can).

Quote
Silly, is it. Only for marketing?  Do you really think that if you do not need something it is true for all others who of course are wrong because you know what is silly and what is not.

Well, we're talking about general purpose low end scopes that are mostly bought by hobbyists, and I'd bet that the percentage that would truly benefit from >50Mpts sample memory on a slow 2Gsa/s scope (or even >25Mpts on a measly 1GSa/s) is miniscule.

Of course if you wanted to use a scope as long-term recorder then there's use for lots of memory, but these are mostly industrial applications for which only few would touch a B-brand like OWON anyways (and rather use something more appropriate like a Yokogawa ScopeCorder).

I'm not against offering large sample memory, but do believe it's silly to put excessive amounts of memory in a slow bottom-of-the-barrel scope and then not even offering a proper search functionality.

Quote
Is this something what is not normal oscilloscope use. If it is not normal use, define what is normal use I do this kind of things many times.
(it was ultra simply crap cycle-cycle  jitter (or something like it)  check for 10ms period 20ns pulses with also infinite persistence running long time).

Many times I miss lot of more memory just for keep full samplerate with low timebases. Other way is segmented acquisition.

This seems to be more down to your personal preference than a real requirement for that measurement. You don't need excessive sample memory to measure that.

How about you show us some examples of problems which really *require* say more than 20Mpts on a 1GSa/s scope and which would not be possible on a similar scope with say 2Mpts or 4Mpts? 
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2016, 11:39:37 pm »
I regulary do long acquisitions using as much memory as possible. It is handy to be able to record a message exchange between 2 devices for several seconds and still have enough resolution to decode the data. With my logic analyser (32Mpts) I regulary take one acquisition which contains all the data I need. No need to setup complex triggering or whatever. In my book more memory is definitely better but with oscilloscopes it is clear to me that the current state of technology used in oscilloscopes seems to limit the useful amount of memory to around 10 to 20 Mpts.
Also note that in many oscilloscopes (including the HMO11202) the memory is shared between channels and Keysight cheats even worse in this aspect.
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Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #81 on: January 25, 2016, 07:36:19 am »
Putting 50Mpts or more of sample memory in a measly 2GSa/s scope is silly and only serves marketing purposes.
Equivelent is that perhaps then 25M for 1GSa/s scope?

Silly perhaps...

Not at all. You might want to record a serial data transmission or something. It could need several seconds.

So long as RAM is cheap and your scope has a good auto function for memory depth then make it big!
 

Offline CookMeSomeKai

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #82 on: January 25, 2016, 08:07:19 am »
All the options together (UART, CAN, I2C, SPI and logic channels) cost 1335 euro extra (including VAT).

Damn, that sucks.
The HMO1002 is bundled with the serial options now I believe.

Using the logic channels doesn't cost anything extra. The probe is optional (300 EUR ex VAT) - but you've seen in Dave's tear down of the logic probe what you get for your money. You don't have to buy the probe, by the way - if you've got one from any other "HMO" labelled HAMEG or R&S scope then you can just use that one as well. The logic probe is not locked to one particular scope.

Serial decoding (I2C, SPI, UART) is an option that costs 300 EUR ex VAT. For CAN / LIN it is 500 EUR ex VAT. By the way - I'm not quoting ex-VAT prices because they sound cheaper, but because VAT can be 5% or 25% depending on the country where you live.

The HMO1002MAX which bundles the serial options is a HMO1002 version for the education market.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 08:13:28 am by CookMeSomeKai »
 

Offline CookMeSomeKai

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #83 on: January 25, 2016, 08:16:33 am »
I am in the market for a new oscilloscope (replacing a TDS210 almost 15 years ago) and the R&S seems interesting. Is the HMO1202 a new model?  I cannot seem to find it on equipment.

What I could find is a HMO1102, 100Mhz, $1220

http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO1102/?v=0

and a HMO Max 100Mhz, $1095
http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO-Max/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?v=7401

Anybody knows how they compare to each other and to the HMO1202.

My needs are modest. I was happy with the TDS210 until it died on me and for long captures and decoding I use a Saleae logic analyzer which works well for me. Also, I am aware of the lower cost Chinese products but want to explore a better quality product.

The HMO1002 ranges between 50 and 100MHz, while the HMO1202 comes with 100, 200 or 300 MHz. Sampling rate an memory are twice the size in the HMO1202 compared to the HMO1002.
 

Offline fanOfeeDIY

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #84 on: January 25, 2016, 11:04:51 am »
Hi,

I added R&S HMO1202 to the Digital Oscilloscope Chart.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/digital-oscilloscope-comparison-chart/
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #85 on: January 25, 2016, 05:23:32 pm »
All the options together (UART, CAN, I2C, SPI and logic channels) cost 1335 euro extra (including VAT).

Damn, that sucks.
The HMO1002 is bundled with the serial options now I believe.

Using the logic channels doesn't cost anything extra. The probe is optional (300 EUR ex VAT) - but you've seen in Dave's tear down of the logic probe what you get for your money. You don't have to buy the probe, by the way - if you've got one from any other "HMO" labelled HAMEG or R&S scope then you can just use that one as well. The logic probe is not locked to one particular scope.

Serial decoding (I2C, SPI, UART) is an option that costs 300 EUR ex VAT. For CAN / LIN it is 500 EUR ex VAT. By the way - I'm not quoting ex-VAT prices because they sound cheaper, but because VAT can be 5% or 25% depending on the country where you live.

The HMO1002MAX which bundles the serial options is a HMO1002 version for the education market.
Either way it is very close to what the scope itself costs. That smells like selling the scope at a loss and hoping everyone buys at least an extra option.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline 1design

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #86 on: January 25, 2016, 06:03:49 pm »
I don't think arguing over which features are really needed is going to get us somewhere. Each user has its own needs and these are the reason he/she selected the scope he/she owns. I would love for the low en scopes to have the VSA functionality to demodulate and analyze digital modulations. As this is just a SW add on it should be available, right? This is just to show how an instrument can be stretched to extremes in each direction.
The HMO1202 addresses a part of the market that needs the exact features it offers, as do all the other scopes. I think the price is a bit salty for the hobby market, nevertheless it might find a warm home in many labs that need to make a living on it and need it work all the time to do basic debugging on switchers, serial interfaces, opamps etc. Which is nowadays 85% of scope use in electronic design.
For specific needs like long run acquisitions, differential signal probing, high bandwidth digital demodulation, special low noise applications manufacturers have specific instruments that cater those markets at appropriate prices so that customers that really need them still buy them. :-DMM :-+

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Offline zapta

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #87 on: January 25, 2016, 06:18:15 pm »
I don't think arguing over which features are really needed is going to get us somewhere. Each user has its own needs and these are the reason he/she selected the scope he/she owns.

Very well said. I also don't need 6 digits DMM, 3 digits are just fine for this hobbyist. Others may have different needs and different budget flexibility.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 06:19:52 pm by zapta »
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Offline nazcalines

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #88 on: January 27, 2016, 03:47:32 am »
Thanks Dave... been waiting for a teardown review of the entry level R&S scopes! I'm nearly sold on the HMO1202, just waiting for the full review. I remember watching an older review (not sure if it was Dave's) with the intensity graded display looking less than ideal, so I hope that will be addressed.

I do audio/embedded design and have been looking for a new scope for some time. Anything with a loud fan is out right away for me. I'm currently using an HP 54601b and BK precision 20MHz analog scope, so this should be quite an upgrade. The other scope I'm looking at is a used R&S RTM1054, but a bit more risk going that way.
 

Offline ormandj

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #89 on: January 29, 2016, 02:57:07 am »
Still waiting to hear back about option pricing but managed to get the price for the three models in USD for those interested:

Rohde & Schwarz HMO 1212
2 CH Digital Oscilloscope 100MHz
$1,340.00

Rohde & Schwarz HMO 1222
2 CH MSO Oscilloscope 200MHz
$1,830.00

Rohde & Schwarz HMO 1232
2 CH MSO Oscilloscope 300 MHz
$2,195.00

I'm curious to see the review if/when it is posted. I'm looking for a first oscilloscope and this seems quite nice overall, but it lacks a four channel option which seems like it would be useful if you only have one scope. It'll be interesting to see what Dave's thoughts are on it. Looked like it was pretty decent from the teardown and FFT videos, and comparing apples to apples with the pricing on a non-hacked Rigol it doesn't seem terrible in pricing if it's a reasonable step-up in usability/quality. Too bad there isn't a four channel version available currently.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 02:59:46 am by ormandj »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #90 on: January 29, 2016, 05:45:26 am »
That's a great deal, you'll enjoy using it for sure ;)

May be too good to be true. I placed an order for the HMO Max but Tequipment are not sure if they can actually fulfill.

They are nice and responsive people though.


Edit (Feb/1/2016):  Tequipment says the availability issue was resolve and they will ship in two weeks. Looks good.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 03:56:47 pm by zapta »
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Offline smarteebit

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #91 on: February 02, 2016, 05:59:37 am »
According to Dave's video, generally I like the HMO1202 scope, more than Keysight/Tek's at the same level. It has good system design, excellent UI, and attractive price. The hardware scheme looks a little old, but I think it is OK, after all this is an industrial market.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #92 on: February 20, 2016, 05:57:17 pm »

The CAN/LIN/UART/SPI/I2C decoders come free with this older model $1K oscilloscope.

http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO-Max/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?v=0

I placed an order this morning for one. This video was very helpful.

After a few back and forth with Tequipment I got the HMO1002 a few days ago, but this not the end of the saga.  I ordered a 100Mhz, with two protocol decoders packages and got a 50Mhz unit with no decoders. Tequipment is still figuring out what to do. They are nice on the live chat and want to help but must have there a very weird operation.

Overall I like it. It's compact, quiet (no fan in that model), large enough display and more memory than I need. The front panel is cramped and less user friendly that Tektronix oscilloscopes I used in the past but but is good enough for me. The three small shift knobs (horizontal, vertical, trigger) are too small and the encoder has too much friction to a point that it's annoying to use them. I will look for larger knobs (6mm D shape shaft). I got used to having the trigger BNC on the left (initially connected it, assuming it's CH1) and the single set of vertical controls.

My experience with Tequipment suggests that it doesn't have good support or popularity in the US. May be a different case in Europe.

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Offline ormandj

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #93 on: February 20, 2016, 06:15:23 pm »

The CAN/LIN/UART/SPI/I2C decoders come free with this older model $1K oscilloscope.

http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO-Max/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?v=0

I placed an order this morning for one. This video was very helpful.

After a few back and forth with Tequipment I got the HMO1002 a few days ago, but this not the end of the saga.  I ordered a 100Mhz, with two protocol decoders packages and got a 50Mhz unit with no decoders. Tequipment is still figuring out what to do. They are nice on the live chat and want to help but must have there a very weird operation.

Overall I like it. It's compact, quiet (no fan in that model), large enough display and more memory than I need. The front panel is cramped and less user friendly that Tektronix oscilloscopes I used in the past but but is good enough for me. The three small shift knobs (horizontal, vertical, trigger) are too small and the encoder has too much friction to a point that it's annoying to use them. I will look for larger knobs (6mm D shape shaft). I got used to having the trigger BNC on the left (initially connected it, assuming it's CH1) and the single set of vertical controls.

My experience with Tequipment suggests that it doesn't have good support or popularity in the US. May be a different case in Europe.

Try calling them, I've had very good success with their CS over the phone. Chat support was a very different story, I won't try it again. If you're running into issues with R&S, then not sure. I know TEquipment had to reach out to them directly to even provide me quotes, so I don't think R&S is a high volume item for them.

I hope Dave follows up with a HMO1202 review soon, this looks like a neat scope. I already picked up a Rigol since having 4 channels is nice, but for everything that doesn't require 4 channels, having a more responsive scope would be neat. Wonder if they'll come out with a 4 channel model? That would be quite cool!
 

Offline Remigijus

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #94 on: February 26, 2016, 02:07:28 pm »
Hello David
great video with explanation  :-+

There is a connector from main board to display with several twisted pair. Best view in video is at 8.39s.
The connector seems like Hirose DF19 series. Did anyone knows the name of the yellow transparent tape sticked on plug house?

In my PCB I using this kind of connector and want to make it simple to disconnect.

Any help would be great
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #95 on: February 26, 2016, 07:14:56 pm »
 Looks like Kapton tape to me. My guess is it is there to keep the individual wires to that connector together and to act as a bit of a strain relief.


 

Offline zapta

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #96 on: February 29, 2016, 03:31:09 pm »
After a few back and forth with Tequipment I got the HMO1002 a few days ago, but this not the end of the saga.  I ordered a 100Mhz, with two protocol decoders packages and got a 50Mhz unit with no decoders. Tequipment is still figuring out what to do. They are nice on the live chat and want to help but must have there a very weird operation.

Two weeks after I received from Tequipment a 50Mhz unit and still no show for the 50->100Mhz upgrade and the two decoder options codes that were on the order. Tequipment said today that they will try to contact Rohde & Schwarz again.

Doesn't look good. I may need to return and keep looking.

Edit: Tequipment forwarded me today an email from R&S with the three codes for the 100Mhz upgrade and the two serial decoders for my unit. Installation was easy, using a USB drive, and everything I ordered seems to be enabled. Getting the codes took longer than I expected but is resolved now so this is a happy end. Throughout the process Tequipment people were very friendly over chat and email and assured me that they will get me the keys from Rohde & Schwarz.

« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 05:25:23 am by zapta »
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Offline zapta

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #97 on: March 02, 2016, 05:28:11 am »
The UI of HMO1002 R&S oscilloscope is simple and intuitive. I like it. Here is for example the setting of the  serial decoder (an option)



The HMO1202 should be the same, both share the same manual and the differences are in memory size, sampling rate and the lack of fan in the HMO1002.
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Offline pa3hfu

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #98 on: May 07, 2016, 01:17:14 pm »
Can anyone tell me how to trigger both channels on a HMO1212? In the Trigger Menu there is only Ch1 or Ch2. I cannot find a Alternate option to display both channels simulataniously.   TNX!!
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #99 on: May 07, 2016, 05:28:02 pm »
Well, many oscilloscopes have NO alternate trigger. It is very common.
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