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EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on January 20, 2016, 05:51:20 am

Title: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on January 20, 2016, 05:51:20 am
Inside the Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 series HMO1232 300MHz mixed signal oscilloscope.

Factory 3D tour: http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/campaigns-media/vimperkvideo/index.htm (http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/campaigns-media/vimperkvideo/index.htm)

ADC http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/adc08d1000.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/adc08d1000.pdf)
PGA http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lmh6518.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lmh6518.pdf)
Comparator http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/ADCMP561_562.pdf (http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/ADCMP561_562.pdf)
Papst Fan: http://catalog.ebmpapst.us/allpdfs/400.PDF (http://catalog.ebmpapst.us/allpdfs/400.PDF)
Atmel SAMA5 ARM Cortext A5: http://www.atmel.com/devices/SAMA5D31.aspx (http://www.atmel.com/devices/SAMA5D31.aspx)
LVDS LCD driver http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ds90c385a.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ds90c385a.pdf)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_FBwu2K7j0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_FBwu2K7j0)
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: nowlan on January 20, 2016, 07:06:55 am
Doesnt appear to be any 4 channel versions (no space on board), unlike the older HMO compacts.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Stonent on January 20, 2016, 07:46:41 am
I noticed the Hameg branding on the pod.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Barny on January 20, 2016, 08:26:11 am
It's crazy to see that this top level oscilloscope cost the same as mine bottom level one, which I bought many years ago.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Lukas on January 20, 2016, 09:52:50 am
One minor annoyance I noticed: The measurement readout is left-aligned and they aren't using tabular figures (all digits are of the same width). So when the reading changes, the unit jumps in position. Also, when changing between 99 and 100 the position changes significantly. They've got the space available to right-align the measurement results. Wondering why this slipped since they seem to be very concerned about user interface.

Appendix:
I've taken a look at their open source acknowledgements, looks like they're using FreeRTOS. This explains the fast boot time.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: salviador on January 20, 2016, 10:58:04 am
I want to buy an oscilloscope, but are undecided.
This R&S oscilloscoper is great but has little memory only 2M

I thought the new siglent SDS2000X  has 140M !!

what to choose?
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: TinkerFan on January 20, 2016, 01:27:48 pm
I noticed a little Y on the PCB ground plane (which is not connected) next to the sample memory (18:45) and I was wondering, if that is some sort of a sign for the Pick & Place machine? Is that common? I thought, they would do it with silkscreen markings or so.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: mswhin63 on January 20, 2016, 02:21:11 pm
Just another great scope out of my price range  :(

Really looks and works well from what I see. I to agree about the layout though would be the only negative on this.

Overall well done R&S
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Muxr on January 20, 2016, 04:06:58 pm
It really is a sweet scope.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: ECEdesign on January 20, 2016, 05:01:12 pm
Looks very clean and well made (who doesn't love gold contacts).  For my purposes, I cant see a reason to spend that much more for what seems like less impressive specs on the datasheets compared to the 1054Z.  Besides having a nice UI, will there be any noticeable difference when using this by choosing this scope over a Rigol 1054Z (assuming purchasing the 100Mhz version of R&S scope)  :-//

Also it says its a MSO built in which it sort of is but it is $375 just for the probe you need for it to work...  I guess that way you could get the scope at a lower price and then add MSO as an option.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Groucho2005 on January 20, 2016, 05:28:57 pm
Besides having a nice UI, will there be any noticeable difference when using this by choosing this scope over a Rigol 1054Z
I have the "older" HMO 0722 scope which I think is very similar apart from some minor UI changes. For me it is important to have Y amplifiers with very little noise at high sensitivity (1/10 mv/div), the Hameg is very quiet. I somehow doubt that the Rigol for ~400 bucks would have a similar quality frontend.


Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: necessaryevil on January 20, 2016, 05:51:20 pm
Which parameter is 1/10 mV div? Do you mean the noise is 0.1 mV or do you mean the lowest setting is 0.1 mV/div ? Or do I get it wrong altogether?
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Groucho2005 on January 20, 2016, 05:56:48 pm
Which parameter is 1/10 mV div? Do you mean the noise is 0.1 mV or do you mean the lowest setting is 0.1 mV/div ? Or do I get it wrong altogether?
I meant between 1mv/div and 10mV/div.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: tautech on January 20, 2016, 06:50:58 pm
I want to buy an oscilloscope, but are undecided.
This R&S oscilloscoper is great but has little memory only 2M

I thought the new siglent SDS2000X  has 140M !!

what to choose?
You are correct, even the 2 channel 1000X has 14M and a 500uV input range.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: nctnico on January 20, 2016, 08:01:06 pm
It's crazy to see that this top level oscilloscope cost the same as mine bottom level one, which I bought many years ago.
Just wait until you see what R&S charges for the decoding and other options! The base prices are loss leaders!

@salviador: Whatever you do: don't buy the SDS2000(X). It won't make you happy.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Falkra on January 20, 2016, 08:30:44 pm
Watching the teardown videos, I have learnt how to understand what good design is.

Thank you for the videos.  :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on January 20, 2016, 10:46:16 pm
I noticed a little Y on the PCB ground plane (which is not connected) next to the sample memory (18:45) and I was wondering, if that is some sort of a sign for the Pick & Place machine? Is that common? I thought, they would do it with silkscreen markings or so.

You never do fiducial markings with silkscreen, there can be alignment errors.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on January 20, 2016, 10:46:45 pm
Watching the teardown videos, I have learnt how to understand what good design is.

Glad to hear, that's the intention.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: DutchGert on January 20, 2016, 10:46:57 pm
What is it with the via's on the board? They look white..

Are they filled and then covered with some solkscreen? :-//

And why do seperate fiducials for the bga's? 4 marks in the corners of the board should be enough right?
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on January 20, 2016, 10:48:35 pm
Also it says its a MSO built in which it sort of is but it is $375 just for the probe you need for it to work...  I guess that way you could get the scope at a lower price and then add MSO as an option.

If they bundled the probe it would probably sell like hot cakes.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: nctnico on January 20, 2016, 10:58:38 pm
All the options together (UART, CAN, I2C, SPI and logic channels) cost 1335 euro extra (including VAT).
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on January 20, 2016, 11:23:12 pm
All the options together (UART, CAN, I2C, SPI and logic channels) cost 1335 euro extra (including VAT).

Damn, that sucks.
The HMO1002 is bundled with the serial options now I believe.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: mojoe on January 21, 2016, 01:51:45 am
A drool-worth scope, but more than I would want to pay. One question that I didn't see asked before - what is the coin cell for? That is a drawback, having to worry about remembering to change it out years down the road. I hope it isn't keeping something important (like cal values) backed up.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: c4757p on January 21, 2016, 02:05:56 am
Almost certainly just real-time clock. I heard Dave mention something about FRAM (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferroelectric_RAM) during the teardown, that's probably what they're using for cal data - IIRC that's what Rigol uses as well.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: cpuerror on January 21, 2016, 02:17:45 am
I would like to see this thing run against the Rigol DS2000 to compare its capture performance. Price wise for 300Mhz it is virtually the same as a Rigol DS2302A which is $2450US on Tequipment. Compared to other big names you can also go tektronix and spend over $8000 to get a 300Mhz scope that was obsolete 10 years ago.

Personally I think the Rigol is much more attractive but beauty is highly subjective.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: blueskull on January 21, 2016, 02:53:11 am
A piece of beautiful sh*t.
Small memory, deep in thickness, non touch, high price, outdated design and gold plated connectors (yes, they suck if you plug them often).

2M is fine only with segmented memory. With continuous memory, 2M=1ms at 2Gsps. Besides, at 2Gsps throughput, the capability of Cyclone 4 can easily dump it into larger DRAM, instead of SRAM.
It is really thick in size, compared to ultra thin designs which are becoming popular, like the owon ones (I own an original 2010 SDS7102, and I really appreciate its size).
The design uses expensive and outdated NS ADC, while new designs use Hittite converters that consume a fraction of power and cost a fraction of the cost, plus come with native 12bit mode.
The fact is, no one cares about performance of the ADC, since in such high bandwidth applications, most noise comes from front end, not ADC.
The application system is old too. A new design using Zynq can be cheaper while providing more on die SRAM and 10x CPU-FPGA bandwidth with DDR3 hard IP, and the effort is acceptable -- all HDL can be reused.
Compared to mid range Rigol scopes at the same price, I do not know how can it compete, besides better building quality. In addition, Rigol scopes can be hacked.
Finally, I really hate the gold plated connectors. When mated and unmated often, the gold layer will wear out, revealing half gold half nickel finishing. I'd rather get a scope with high quality thick nickel plating instead of soft gold plating.

For 1/3 of the price, DS2072 can be hacked to have 300MHz BW, 140M (?, not sure) memory and AWG.
For the same price, MSO4000 series offers tons of new features and much better hardware specs.
At 2x the price, MSOX2022A offers 100x capture rate with segmented memory and a bunch of other options that could be free if you are lucky.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: zapta on January 21, 2016, 04:23:44 am
I am in the market for a new oscilloscope (replacing a TDS210 almost 15 years ago) and the R&S seems interesting. Is the HMO1202 a new model?  I cannot seem to find it on equipment.

What I could find is a HMO1102, 100Mhz, $1220

http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO1102/?v=0 (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO1102/?v=0)

and a HMO Max 100Mhz, $1095
http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO-Max/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?v=7401 (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO-Max/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?v=7401)

Anybody knows how they compare to each other and to the HMO1202.

My needs are modest. I was happy with the TDS210 until it died on me and for long captures and decoding I use a Saleae logic analyzer which works well for me. Also, I am aware of the lower cost Chinese products but want to explore a better quality product.



Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Muxr on January 21, 2016, 04:24:49 am
I would like to see this thing run against the Rigol DS2000 to compare its capture performance. Price wise for 300Mhz it is virtually the same as a Rigol DS2302A which is $2450US on Tequipment. Compared to other big names you can also go tektronix and spend over $8000 to get a 300Mhz scope that was obsolete 10 years ago.

Personally I think the Rigol is much more attractive but beauty is highly subjective.

I have the DS2072A (hacked to DS2302A), was a bit over $800. It's a great scope when you look at the performance per dollar. But I never came to grips with its UI. It's as annoying to use today as it was when I first got it. If I was doing it all over again I would seriously consider the HMO1202 instead.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: nowlan on January 21, 2016, 06:04:16 am
The 200mhz is odd. The original budget model comes 50mhz std, with license unlocks to 70 or 100mhz.

The 1202 seems to be a new model from November 2015.
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/au/news-press/press-room/press-releases-detailpages/new-r-s-hmo1202-mixed-signal-oscilloscopes-offer-top-performance-at-a-great-price-press_releases_detailpage_229356-152704.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/au/news-press/press-room/press-releases-detailpages/new-r-s-hmo1202-mixed-signal-oscilloscopes-offer-top-performance-at-a-great-price-press_releases_detailpage_229356-152704.html)
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Paul Moir on January 21, 2016, 07:27:14 am
Finally, I really hate the gold plated connectors. When mated and unmated often, the gold layer will wear out, revealing half gold half nickel finishing. I'd rather get a scope with high quality thick nickel plating instead of soft gold plating.

I'm wondering why I'm supposed to be cheering for gold BNCs solely supported by solder rather than a nut.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: blueskull on January 21, 2016, 07:55:00 am
I'm wondering why I'm supposed to be cheering for gold BNCs solely supported by solder rather than a nut.

Probably they have done the math, after all it is a piece of over engineered gear.
With no severe temperature cycling, mechanical strength of solder should be fine.
But with gold contact, I don't know. IMC of Au and Sn is notoriously unreliable with thermal cycles.
That's another reason why we stopped using Au to bond power semiconductors other than cost factor.
It will probably be fine since the connector may not experience high temp or thermal cycle at all.
But still, I do not consider this properly. Nut and washer is always better.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: chickenHeadKnob on January 21, 2016, 08:30:03 am
Dave: I would like to request a head to head comparison video versus the Rigol 2072 not the 1074 you have as I feel they are more direct competitors. Partial idea of some things to test,

 
I am pretty sure other forum members  would be similarly interested.
Thanks
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on January 21, 2016, 09:34:08 am
The 1202 seems to be a new model from November 2015.
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/au/news-press/press-room/press-releases-detailpages/new-r-s-hmo1202-mixed-signal-oscilloscopes-offer-top-performance-at-a-great-price-press_releases_detailpage_229356-152704.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/au/news-press/press-room/press-releases-detailpages/new-r-s-hmo1202-mixed-signal-oscilloscopes-offer-top-performance-at-a-great-price-press_releases_detailpage_229356-152704.html)

Yes, I forgot to mention that, it's a new model just released.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: coppice on January 21, 2016, 02:51:55 pm
The 1202 seems to be a new model from November 2015.
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/au/news-press/press-room/press-releases-detailpages/new-r-s-hmo1202-mixed-signal-oscilloscopes-offer-top-performance-at-a-great-price-press_releases_detailpage_229356-152704.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/au/news-press/press-room/press-releases-detailpages/new-r-s-hmo1202-mixed-signal-oscilloscopes-offer-top-performance-at-a-great-price-press_releases_detailpage_229356-152704.html)

Yes, I forgot to mention that, it's a new model just released.
It has an 11 year old ADC that has already reached the "not for new designs stage" (although a very nice quiet 7.4 ENOB ADC), limited storage and less than stellar waveforms per second. This looks like a design that must have been in gestation for a long long time.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Fungus on January 21, 2016, 03:00:43 pm
Yes, I forgot to mention that, it's a new model just released.
It has an 11 year old ADC that has already reached the "not for new designs stage" (although a very nice quiet 7.4 ENOB ADC), limited storage and less than stellar waveforms per second. This looks like a design that must have been in gestation for a long long time.
Or maybe they got a sweet deal on the last batch of chips.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: TinkerFan on January 21, 2016, 03:35:41 pm
I noticed a little Y on the PCB ground plane (which is not connected) next to the sample memory (18:45) and I was wondering, if that is some sort of a sign for the Pick & Place machine? Is that common? I thought, they would do it with silkscreen markings or so.

You never do fiducial markings with silkscreen, there can be alignment errors.

So I assume it is a common method of aligning the chip with a pick and place machine?
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: zapta on January 21, 2016, 03:41:42 pm
The 1202 seems to be a new model from November 2015.
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/au/news-press/press-room/press-releases-detailpages/new-r-s-hmo1202-mixed-signal-oscilloscopes-offer-top-performance-at-a-great-price-press_releases_detailpage_229356-152704.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/au/news-press/press-room/press-releases-detailpages/new-r-s-hmo1202-mixed-signal-oscilloscopes-offer-top-performance-at-a-great-price-press_releases_detailpage_229356-152704.html)

Yes, I forgot to mention that, it's a new model just released.

Do you know how it compares to the previous R&S models ?

HMO1102, 100Mhz, $1220
http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO1102/?v=0 (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO1102/?v=0)

HMO Max 100Mhz, $1095
http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO-Max/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?v=7401 (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO-Max/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?v=7401)
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: rf-loop on January 21, 2016, 04:11:57 pm
I have been long long  time big fan of R&S equipments. (specially older high grade - state of art equipments. Just so amazing building quality - and prices)

But this do not look at all like these real R&S equipments.

After reading specifications, this video and so on I'm very confused.
Specially if this is really new design and launched 2015.


After reading Trigger specifications I need really ask do this scope have true digital side trigger system or do it have conventional old analog trigger system? If it is analog trigger and launched 2015 and brand is R&S I have very mixed feeling.



Then some other things..

10kwfm/s speed. Really?
32 level intensity grading?
Small 6.5"  display.
I can not find gated measurements.
I can not see segmented memory acquisition.

I can see small 2M memory today, really in new 2015 launched scope from R&S.
I can see ADC what is classified "Not for new design".

Of course I can see this is not crap and there is many nice things but... 

Is this at all R&S design?


Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: coppice on January 21, 2016, 04:15:06 pm
After reading specifications, this video and so on I'm very confused.
Specially if this is really new design and launched 2015.
Maybe it spent 6 or 7 years waiting for a supply of lemon soaked paper towels.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: nfmax on January 21, 2016, 04:50:46 pm
More likely it got delayed while the negotiation & due diligence for R&S's acquisition of Hameg took place - this looks like a Hameg product.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Groucho2005 on January 21, 2016, 05:26:28 pm
this looks like a Hameg product.
Indeed, entry level Hameg scope.
The Hameg HMO3000 series scopes are already much better - 4GS / 500 MHz / 200,000 waveform update rate.
The "real" R&S scopes ("Scope Of The Art") make me drool - up to 20GS / 4 GHz / 1,000,000 waveform update rate.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: nowlan on January 22, 2016, 03:42:02 am
I assumed it was a minor change from the older models. But they have made a few changes between series.

HMO Compact Series
70 to 200 MHz 2/4 Channel Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
http://www.hameg.com/0.616.0.html (http://www.hameg.com/0.616.0.html)

This model.
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/hmo1202-productstartpage_63493-142720.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/hmo1202-productstartpage_63493-142720.html)
http://value.rohde-schwarz.com/vi/value/oscilloscopes/r-srhmo1202-digital-oscilloscope.html (http://value.rohde-schwarz.com/vi/value/oscilloscopes/r-srhmo1202-digital-oscilloscope.html)



HMO compact rear
(http://www.hameg.com/uploads/pics/hmp2024_4.jpg)

HMO1002 RS rear
(https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/product/hameg_liste/hmo1002/HMO1002_rear.jpg)

DVI replaced by ethernet. Different USB socket.
External trigger moved to front.

So did they just update the FPGA and ports?
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: bitseeker on January 22, 2016, 04:00:22 am
+1 on Dave's comment about the front panel layout. The spatial relationships between the control and input sections don't make sense. I'd like to know what rationale went into that. Looks like a case of trying to be different.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: rf-loop on January 22, 2016, 08:46:40 am

At 2x the price, MSOX2022A offers 100x capture rate with segmented memory and a bunch of other options that could be free if you are lucky.

Really. Perhaps I need update my library? It looks more like 5x faster and only with 250 segments.
(20?s is fastest trigger interval what is really extremely slow if we look today oscilloscopes and segmented memory acquisition. It is more like Rigol frame recorder.)

R&S (model in this topic) do not have segmented memory at all.
Max wfm/s speed in R/S is around 10kwfm/s and MSOX2022A  max is around 50kwfm/s  but it is really slow and Limited with segmented memory. (how they even ask extra payment about this slow speed and low memory segmented  acq option). Also MSOX2022A have standard 100k memory. Optional 1M (agen pay more)  and some others give 280M as standard.  Btw, trig recovery time in specifications is 20us.

Keysight Technologies
Segmented Memory Acquisition
for InfiniiVision Series Oscilloscopes

Number of segments
1 to 2000 (5000, 6000, and 7000 Series)
1 to 1000 (3000, 4000, and 6000 X-Series)
1 to 250 (2000 X-Series)

Minimum segment size
500 points (+ Sin(x)/x reconstructed points on faster timebase settings   |O )

Re-arm time
(minimum time between trigger events)
5000, 6000, 7000: 6 ?s
6000 X-Series: 7.5 ?s
3000 and 4000 X-Series: 1 ?s
2000 X-Series: 20 ?s   

Example in Siglent SDS1000X and SDS2000 and SDS2000X there is 2 ?s  trigger recovery time when standard segmented memory acquisition is in use.
Even Siglent models normal allways bacround working history buffer can better (60kwfm/s or 140kwfm/s depending model) and up to 80000 waveforms in history buffer.  Segment acquisition speed  max 500 ksegment/s (and even bit over).  Depending timebase and memory settings up to 80000 segments.


More and more looked this R&S data sheet and agen and agen this video it looks like it is really old design with analog trigger system. (If I'm wrong, please evidence)

Is it really wise to label this kind of ("who ever can made") boxes with this  Rohde&Schwarz name what is classified as one of most top-level brand when we talk electronic T&M equipments least in my head.   They want to stain this name?
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: blueskull on January 22, 2016, 08:52:54 am
5000, 6000, 7000: 6 ?s
6000 X-Series: 7.5 ?s
3000 and 4000 X-Series: 1 ?s
2000 X-Series: 20 ?s

My fault. I thought 2000X is also 1Mwfms/s.
I thought they use the same Mega IV as 3000X and 4000X do.

I'm able to get 1Mwfms/s from my 3104A though.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: rf-loop on January 22, 2016, 09:20:50 am

I thought they use the same Mega IV as 3000X and 4000X do.

I'm able to get 1Mwfms/s from my 3104A though.

2000X is very different bottom level scope. (starting from around 1200 euro w/o tax)

3000X is very nice and totally very far over 2000X. But DSOX3104A (standard without any options)  price is here over 12000 Euro without tax.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: NANDBlog on January 22, 2016, 09:32:52 am

I thought they use the same Mega IV as 3000X and 4000X do.

I'm able to get 1Mwfms/s from my 3104A though.

2000X is very different bottom level scope. (starting from around 1200 euro w/o tax)

3000X is very nice and totally very far over 2000X. But DSOX3104A (standard without any options)  price is here over 12000 Euro without tax.
I've used recently one of their refurbished scope (MSO3000 not T). It came at some ~50% discount, and it was in absolute perfect quality. Nothing missing. Though this might be some gamble, I think, I would recommend buying them again. Still expensive for home, but a good way to convince management to get the tools that I need for work.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: HighVoltage on January 22, 2016, 03:51:08 pm
Doesnt appear to be any 4 channel versions (no space on board), unlike the older HMO compacts.

They have a 4 Channel version of this available.
With 4 BNC connectors in the front, the  External Trigger is on the back, together with Y-OUT
Here are some pictures of my HMO1024, 100 MHz, 2 GSa scope.
It is a lovely tiny scope.
But you have to get used to the UI, it is a little different from the Keysight UI.


Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: owiecc on January 22, 2016, 05:10:10 pm
They have a 4 Channel version of this available.
HMO1002/1202 is a new design. You have an old Hameg design. There is no 4 channel design for the new ones.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: DaWaN on January 22, 2016, 06:13:26 pm
Dave: I would like to request a head to head comparison video versus the Rigol 2072 not the 1074 you have as I feel they are more direct competitors. Partial idea of some things to test,

  • the quasi- averaged higher resolution modes of the Hameg on under <20 Mhz signals versus Rigol 0.500 mV setting and their respective noise floors. 
  • quality of the intensity gradient display versus the Rigol's
  • Wfrm/s
  • Navigation of the capture memory, ease of use
 
I am pretty sure other forum members  would be similarly interested.
Thanks

Yes! At least I am :)

On my day to day job I have both a Hameg HMO2524 and a Rigol DS1074-Z available.
I prefer to use the DS1074 because I find it much easier to navigate through the memory.
The navigation of the Hameg is terrible: we even had to replace the front panel because the rotary encoders had worn out.
This new series seems to be a step-up in terms of build quality, as HAMEG never really convinced me.
So I am curious how Dave thinks about the usability of this scope!
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: PA4TIM on January 22, 2016, 10:15:33 pm
I bought a HMO-3522 in 2011. I use it almost every day. The gold plated bnc's are still as new and a do a lot off probe changing. (diff probes, current probes, component tester, 10x, 100x, 1000x probes etc) I repaired one probe a few weeks ago.
Not bad considering that the Rigol probes I had before lasted less then a year and I could not repair. I kicked the Rigol scope out after 1,5 year of frustration. It was the most expensive piece of shit I ever bought (if I look at the price vs time and price vs performance and price vs quality)

When I had the Rigol (the 100 MHz version) I used my analog scope for 90% of the time, now I use the Hameg 90% of the time. The performance is great, the user interface too (and that is very rare in my case) 
It is still spot on, the fan is as silent as it was new.

About the digital specs an WFU/s things on paper,  I have no clue and I do not care. I use it intensive and often for complex and precision measurements, I trust it, it never let me down and I never noticed it doing  crap measurements like the Rigol did.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: lem_ix on January 22, 2016, 10:54:03 pm
Hameg/R&S gear is very polished + updates long after release date. My HMO1524 is a treat to use and this seems very similar. Wish the CAN/LIN decode was a bit cheaper tho :(
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Hydrawerk on January 22, 2016, 11:32:34 pm
I prefer Keysight scopes. Hameg / Rohde & Schwarz is good only if you need a very compact scope with a silent fan.
EDIT: I mean the HMO series.
The R&S RTM, RTO and RTE series are quite different machines.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: zapta on January 22, 2016, 11:36:10 pm
Hameg/R&S gear is very polished + updates long after release date. My HMO1524 is a treat to use and this seems very similar. Wish the CAN/LIN decode was a bit cheaper tho :(

The CAN/LIN/UART/SPI/I2C decoders come free with this older model $1K oscilloscope.

http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO-Max/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?v=0 (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO-Max/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?v=0)

I placed an order this morning for one. This video was very helpful.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: lem_ix on January 22, 2016, 11:40:12 pm
That's a great deal, you'll enjoy using it for sure ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Gunb on January 23, 2016, 10:57:07 am
Hameg/R&S gear is very polished + updates long after release date. My HMO1524 is a treat to use and this seems very similar. Wish the CAN/LIN decode was a bit cheaper tho :(

?

Compare it to Agilent / Keysight carefully and it will show HOW MUCH you get from Hameg/R&S in comparison to Agilent/Keysight.
THEN you know what's cheap and WHAT's expensive.

I'm using Agilent / Keysight, Tek, Rigol and Hameg/R&S for years now, and without preferring any of these brands I can say that Hameg/R&S is the winner concerning FFT/bus decoding especially
in contrast to Agilent/Keysight.

I've used the InfiniiVision MSOX4054 (20k €!!) for many months now using it for micros including the expensive bus decoding options. Finally I've replaced it with an Hameg/R&S 3054 since it has many options more than the crap of Agilent/Keysight.

The HMO 1002 / 1202 R&S series has much better bus decoding functionality than Keysights and Rigols, and the FFT is a dream for any communication electronics engineer.

So, if the review would be better it wouldn't always deal with open the housing and have a look on a stupid PCB but would reveal more the details I've mentioned above.

Concludingly, if using the scope mainly for micros the Hameg/R&S are offering plenty of features where the Rigols fail. For most purposes you don't need millions of wfm/s. It's just a feature easy to read from
the datasheets, and unfortunately for many users the only criteria.

One might have the most beautiful sports car, but not very helpful for outdoor purposes.

Sorry for being a bit inpolite, but it's simply the truth.


Rgds
Gunb


BTW: Rigol's FFT is crap.

Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Gunb on January 23, 2016, 10:58:57 am
I prefer Keysight scopes. Hameg / Rohde & Schwarz is good only if you need a very compact scope with a silent fan.

Bullsh**t, just that simple.

P.S.: Please don't post videos, we know them all.


Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: rf-loop on January 23, 2016, 11:54:09 am
I prefer Keysight scopes. Hameg / Rohde & Schwarz is good only if you need a very compact scope with a silent fan.


You can prefer what ever scope just as also who ever even if do not have any knowledge or experience about anything.

Comment about R&S is total bullshit and tell only that you are talking things what are outside of your knowledge. Do you even know what is Rohde & Schwarz. Have you never seen any kind of R&S equipments. (If I win enough money from lottery I know what I buy and name plate is on nearly all equipment "true" R&S without any doupt. Do not even think.)

(I do not talk about these R&S adopted "semi R&S" scopes what is here in this teardown what are based perhaps to quite old design by Hameg or whoever and then named by R&S what is quite sad but even these have poor things and nice things, and very good building quality, not state of art but good.)
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: lem_ix on January 23, 2016, 12:08:11 pm
Hameg/R&S gear is very polished + updates long after release date. My HMO1524 is a treat to use and this seems very similar. Wish the CAN/LIN decode was a bit cheaper tho :(

?

Compare it to Agilent / Keysight carefully and it will show HOW MUCH you get from Hameg/R&S in compariso to Agilent/Keysight.
THEN you know what's cheap and WHAT's expensive.

I'm using Agilent / Keysight, Tek, Rigol and Hameg/R&S for years now, and without preferring any of these brands I can say that Hameg/R&S is the winner especially
in contrast to Agilent/Keysight.

I've used the InfiniiVision MSOX4054 (20k €!!) for many months now using it for micros including the expensive bus decoding options. Finally I've replaced it with an Hameg/R&S 3054 since it has many options more than the crap of Agilent/Keysight.

The HMO 1002 / 1202 R&S series has much better bus decoding functionality than Keysights and Rigols, and the FFT is a dream for any communication electronics engineer which is included in todays scopes.

So, if the review would be better it wouldn't always deal with open the housing and have a look on a stupid PCB but would reveal more the details I've mentioned above.

Sorry for being a bit inpolite, but it's simply the truth.


Rgds
Gunb

Don't see what you're getting worked up about? I didn't compare it to anything and I'm very well aware of equivalent keysight pricing although it's a promo deal for some scopes atm right? Working on a competition robot  with some mates, decided on canbus for inter-board communication. Can't justify the price for that, a bit more money and I could get a rigol ds2072, hack it and voila canbus decode plus another scope... Not gonna do any of that, decode is nice but not crucial in any way. Bottom line, a very personal wish, can you blame me :D ?



Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Gunb on January 23, 2016, 12:53:27 pm

Don't see what you're getting worked up about? I didn't compare it to anything and I'm very well aware of equivalent keysight pricing although it's a promo deal for some scopes atm right? Working on a competition robot  with some mates, decided on canbus for inter-board communication. Can't justify the price for that, a bit more money and I could get a rigol ds2072, hack it and voila canbus decode plus another scope... Not gonna do any of that, decode is nice but not crucial in any way. Bottom line, a very personal wish, can you blame me :D ?

Well, you've mentioned CAN/LIN. The R&S decode is not as expensive as Agilent/Keysight, and faster with more features than Rigol provides. Got Rigol and Hameg/R&S at home, Agilent/Keysight at work. So not only a theoretical sight of view. Can't understand to pay approx. 600€ for serial decode for the Agilent without the option to display characters in ASCII !!! The HMOs have got all options included, and that's only one example.

Comparing a hacked scope with a non hacked one rather prefers the hacked one.

Decode is more crucial today than ever before. Dealing with embedded every day it's permanently in use in parallel to analog / mixed signal. And then one might need proper implementation of all these features than having a simple scope only. Rigol lacks in a few things concerning this. Neither 140 Mpts memory nor high wfm/s will change these facts.

Besides bus decode the HMOs are proper devices with much better rotary encoders than these of the Rigols. Had to change one after short usage. Even the Agilent 4054X I've mentioned above has got a broken rotary encoder of less quality.

Don't want to make the Rigols bad, commonly good scopes. But there are reasons for the HMOs and to spend a bit more money, too. I'm missing these details in the review.

Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Hydrawerk on January 23, 2016, 03:13:40 pm
Do you even know what is Rohde & Schwarz. Have you never seen any kind of R&S equipments.
Yes.
https://www.scope-of-the-art.com/en/ (https://www.scope-of-the-art.com/en/)

But this handheld R&S scope is new for me. http://www.2-minutes.com/ (http://www.2-minutes.com/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Fungus on January 23, 2016, 03:33:07 pm
this handheld R&S scope is new for me. http://www.2-minutes.com/ (http://"http://www.2-minutes.com/en/?rs_cid=site_com_rsint_sota_2015_microsite"/)

Nice.

If I had $6000 to spare I might get one....

Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Neganur on January 23, 2016, 03:39:05 pm
Don't know about the memory debate. It's a bit too much comparing numbers rather than what is enough for the task it is designed for.
It's an oscilloscope, not a digitizer. I think it'll do it's job well enough.

Imagine it had 1 Gigabyte of the fastest memory you can imagine. What would it be good for and how often would you need that?

(Edit: 640KB ought to be enough, no? :D I'm probably failing to see the need.)
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: nctnico on January 23, 2016, 04:11:15 pm
For the price of the HMO1202 (especially if you want the decoding options) you can certainly do better without needing to resort to Rigol or Siglent!
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: zapta on January 23, 2016, 04:20:08 pm
Don't know about the memory debate. It's a bit too much comparing numbers rather than what is enough for the task it is designed for.
It's an oscilloscope, not a digitizer. I think it'll do it's job well enough.

My previous oscilloscope was a TDS210 with 2500 points/ch and it worked just fine, so the X200 memory size of the R&S HMO1002 should be more than enough for me.

I ordered it after the DS1054Z arrived. No offense but the Rigol felt noisy, non responsive, cramped, and even crude (e.g. some of the fonts it uses). Not something I would enjoy using in the next 10 years, even if it has larger memory and two more channels. This is subjective of course, YMMV.

Comparing numbers is not everything.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: rf-loop on January 23, 2016, 05:04:29 pm
Don't know about the memory debate. It's a bit too much comparing numbers rather than what is enough for the task it is designed for.
It's an oscilloscope, not a digitizer. I think it'll do it's job well enough.


One aspect is: For maintaining fast sampling.

 Why oscilloscopes need deep acquisition memory (http://www.electronicproducts.com/Test_and_Measurement/Benchtop_Rack_Mountable/Why_oscilloscopes_need_deep_acquisition_memory.aspx) by Joel Woodward, Senior Product Manager, Oscilloscopes,  Agilent Technologies.
There he tell also two other reasons.

But this whole question is perhaps so importaant that somewhere is good to ppen thread for: Why oscilloscopes need deep acquisition memory but in some cases 10 sample memory lenght is enough.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: hjups on January 24, 2016, 09:12:33 am
Does anyone have any insight into the ESD topology of the logic probe pod? I have been racking my brain over it since this teardown was posted. They must be doing something special, since I would imagine it should be able to measure TTL signals and the ADCMP562s are only rated for up to a 3V input.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on January 24, 2016, 10:15:36 am
My previous oscilloscope was a TDS210 with 2500 points/ch and it worked just fine, so the X200 memory size of the R&S HMO1002 should be more than enough for me.

A few megs is enough for most things, especially general purpose scope usage.
In this case other factors can drive the buying decision.
For example, the FFT mode on the R&S is very nice (128Kpoint), was playing with it today, and might do a comparison video with some other scopes for that.

Quote
I ordered it after the DS1054Z arrived. No offense but the Rigol felt noisy, non responsive, cramped, and even crude (e.g. some of the fonts it uses). Not something I would enjoy using in the next 10 years, even if it has larger memory and two more channels. This is subjective of course, YMMV.

Yes, quite noisy. In fact I'm starting to get a bit annoyed by it now. The R&S is much more polished, like the Keysight X series, although you pay a hefty price premium for them.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on January 24, 2016, 10:20:31 am
So, if the review would be better it wouldn't always deal with open the housing and have a look on a stupid PCB but would reveal more the details I've mentioned above.

It's not a review video, it's a teardown video. Usually I don't even turn the scope on in a teardown video, but in this case I had a little play.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Fungus on January 24, 2016, 10:43:16 am
I ordered it after the DS1054Z arrived. No offense but the Rigol felt noisy, non responsive, cramped, and even crude (e.g. some of the fonts it uses). Not something I would enjoy using in the next 10 years, even if it has larger memory and two more channels. This is subjective of course, YMMV.
Yes, quite noisy. In fact I'm starting to get a bit annoyed by it now.
Yep, Rigol fan noise is annoying.

How about a video where you set all your fancy thermal imagers and auido measuring gear on a Rigol and see if the fan is really even necessary. If so, what's a good way to silence the thing?
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on January 24, 2016, 10:50:59 am
How about a video where you set all your fancy thermal imagers and auido measuring gear on a Rigol and see if the fan is really even necessary. If so, what's a good way to silence the thing?

Install a better quality quieter fan.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Fungus on January 24, 2016, 11:10:43 am
How about a video where you set all your fancy thermal imagers and auido measuring gear on a Rigol and see if the fan is really even necessary. If so, what's a good way to silence the thing?
Install a better quality quieter fan.

Recommendations? What's the lowest speed it could run at? How much measured difference would it actually make? etc.

You said it annoys you. Don't you want to 'engineer' it?
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on January 24, 2016, 11:33:07 am
Recommendations? What's the lowest speed it could run at? How much measured difference would it actually make? etc.
You said it annoys you. Don't you want to 'engineer' it?

I think some other have done it on the forum.
I was thinking that Papst fan in the R&S is damn nice...
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Groucho2005 on January 24, 2016, 11:49:49 am
For example, the FFT mode on the R&S is very nice (128Kpoint)
Wow, I didn't realize that they upgraded the FFT length. My HMO722 has "only" 64K points and gets a bit sluggish when using that resolution. I wonder if they use a faster processor to make 128K usable.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: HighVoltage on January 24, 2016, 12:47:39 pm

I think some other have done it on the forum.
I was thinking that Papst fan in the R&S is damn nice...
Although Papst fans are really nice, they can also be extremely loud.
But there is one type of Papst fans that I like the best for instruments, it is the Type 612 MI
They are extremely quiet and have a little thermistor to regulate the speed internally.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on January 24, 2016, 03:46:42 pm
One aspect is: For maintaining fast sampling.

 Why oscilloscopes need deep acquisition memory (http://www.electronicproducts.com/Test_and_Measurement/Benchtop_Rack_Mountable/Why_oscilloscopes_need_deep_acquisition_memory.aspx) by Joel Woodward, Senior Product Manager, Oscilloscopes,  Agilent Technologies.
There he tell also two other reasons.

While that is correct in principle, you have to see this in the context of situation, which here is about low-end scopes with low bandwidth and low sample rates which all come with somewhat reasonable amounts of sample memory. The HMO1202 has 2GSa/s and 2Mpts, which should be plenty for what a scope of that category is used for, and because of the low sample rate there's little benefit having excessive amounts of sample memory available, especially when (like with Rigol scopes) they don't come with a proper search function and can't even be used for FFT (which on all Rigol scopes uses just a few thousand points which is a bad joke).

Putting 50Mpts or more of sample memory in a measly 2GSa/s scope is silly and only serves marketing purposes. For an low-end entry-level scope, as long as the sample memory is in Mpts and not just kpts then it should be fine. It's a different story in the mid-range sector though, where bandwidths increase to 1GHz and sample rates to 4GSa/s, plus scopes start to come with more advanced functionality.

Quote
But this whole question is perhaps so importaant that somewhere is good to ppen thread for: Why oscilloscopes need deep acquisition memory but in some cases 10 sample memory lenght is enough.

I don't think this really needs further discussion. As far as I remember even Dave has explained this long ago, and there are also lots of other sources which explain the relation of sample rate and sample memory. It's not really complicated.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: zapta on January 24, 2016, 04:12:07 pm

One aspect is: For maintaining fast sampling.

 Why oscilloscopes need deep acquisition memory (http://www.electronicproducts.com/Test_and_Measurement/Benchtop_Rack_Mountable/Why_oscilloscopes_need_deep_acquisition_memory.aspx) by Joel Woodward, Senior Product Manager, Oscilloscopes,  Agilent Technologies.
There he tell also two other reasons.

My TDS210 had 2500 pts/channel but one feature I found to be very useful and used by default is the min/max ('envelope' in Dave's R&S video) capturing mode. It shows the min/max value that were observed in each of the 2500 time slots. This way I could tell if the signal has short spikes that would not otherwise be captured.

BTW, anybody knows how the per time slot min/max values are computed? Is done the min/max done in the analog or digital domain?
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: rf-loop on January 24, 2016, 05:44:41 pm

Putting 50Mpts or more of sample memory in a measly 2GSa/s scope is silly and only serves marketing purposes.

Equivelent is that perhaps then 25M for 1GSa/s scope?

Silly perhaps but do this in attached image even with this 1GSa/s samplerate using less memory or example with this R&S. Just, no way - end of game. What next,  job is still waiting to do.

Silly, is it. Only for marketing?  Do you really think that if you do not need something it is true for all others who of course are wrong because you know what is silly and what is not.

Is this something what is not normal oscilloscope use. If it is not normal use, define what is normal use I do this kind of things many times.
(it was ultra simply crap cycle-cycle  jitter (or something like it)  check for 10ms period 20ns pulses with also infinite persistence running long time).

Many times I miss lot of more memory just for keep full samplerate with low timebases. Other way is segmented acquisition.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Kleinstein on January 24, 2016, 05:54:37 pm
1 or 2 MPts of memory is allready enough for most applications. There are allways a few cases one might want more - but that is rare. It also depends on how well the scope is setting the sampling rate (some scopes only have a few coarce steps like 1 Gs/s and than 50 Ms/s). With fine adjustment and suitable filters (HW or SW) you often can live with less memory, especially with repetitive signals.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on January 24, 2016, 07:29:11 pm

Putting 50Mpts or more of sample memory in a measly 2GSa/s scope is silly and only serves marketing purposes.

Equivelent is that perhaps then 25M for 1GSa/s scope?

Indeed.

Quote
Silly perhaps but do this in attached image even with this 1GSa/s samplerate using less memory or example with this R&S. Just, no way - end of game. What next,  job is still waiting to do.

Not really. You may not be able to do a 40000x zoom into a signal but that doesn't mean ther's no other way to get the same result (I'm not even sure why you want to do that in the example you gave, aside from just showing off that you can).

Quote
Silly, is it. Only for marketing?  Do you really think that if you do not need something it is true for all others who of course are wrong because you know what is silly and what is not.

Well, we're talking about general purpose low end scopes that are mostly bought by hobbyists, and I'd bet that the percentage that would truly benefit from >50Mpts sample memory on a slow 2Gsa/s scope (or even >25Mpts on a measly 1GSa/s) is miniscule.

Of course if you wanted to use a scope as long-term recorder then there's use for lots of memory, but these are mostly industrial applications for which only few would touch a B-brand like OWON anyways (and rather use something more appropriate like a Yokogawa ScopeCorder).

I'm not against offering large sample memory, but do believe it's silly to put excessive amounts of memory in a slow bottom-of-the-barrel scope and then not even offering a proper search functionality.

Quote
Is this something what is not normal oscilloscope use. If it is not normal use, define what is normal use I do this kind of things many times.
(it was ultra simply crap cycle-cycle  jitter (or something like it)  check for 10ms period 20ns pulses with also infinite persistence running long time).

Many times I miss lot of more memory just for keep full samplerate with low timebases. Other way is segmented acquisition.

This seems to be more down to your personal preference than a real requirement for that measurement. You don't need excessive sample memory to measure that.

How about you show us some examples of problems which really *require* say more than 20Mpts on a 1GSa/s scope and which would not be possible on a similar scope with say 2Mpts or 4Mpts? 
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: nctnico on January 24, 2016, 11:39:37 pm
I regulary do long acquisitions using as much memory as possible. It is handy to be able to record a message exchange between 2 devices for several seconds and still have enough resolution to decode the data. With my logic analyser (32Mpts) I regulary take one acquisition which contains all the data I need. No need to setup complex triggering or whatever. In my book more memory is definitely better but with oscilloscopes it is clear to me that the current state of technology used in oscilloscopes seems to limit the useful amount of memory to around 10 to 20 Mpts.
Also note that in many oscilloscopes (including the HMO11202) the memory is shared between channels and Keysight cheats even worse in this aspect.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Fungus on January 25, 2016, 07:36:19 am
Putting 50Mpts or more of sample memory in a measly 2GSa/s scope is silly and only serves marketing purposes.
Equivelent is that perhaps then 25M for 1GSa/s scope?

Silly perhaps...

Not at all. You might want to record a serial data transmission or something. It could need several seconds.

So long as RAM is cheap and your scope has a good auto function for memory depth then make it big!
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: CookMeSomeKai on January 25, 2016, 08:07:19 am
All the options together (UART, CAN, I2C, SPI and logic channels) cost 1335 euro extra (including VAT).

Damn, that sucks.
The HMO1002 is bundled with the serial options now I believe.

Using the logic channels doesn't cost anything extra. The probe is optional (300 EUR ex VAT) - but you've seen in Dave's tear down of the logic probe what you get for your money. You don't have to buy the probe, by the way - if you've got one from any other "HMO" labelled HAMEG or R&S scope then you can just use that one as well. The logic probe is not locked to one particular scope.

Serial decoding (I2C, SPI, UART) is an option that costs 300 EUR ex VAT. For CAN / LIN it is 500 EUR ex VAT. By the way - I'm not quoting ex-VAT prices because they sound cheaper, but because VAT can be 5% or 25% depending on the country where you live.

The HMO1002MAX which bundles the serial options is a HMO1002 version for the education market.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: CookMeSomeKai on January 25, 2016, 08:16:33 am
I am in the market for a new oscilloscope (replacing a TDS210 almost 15 years ago) and the R&S seems interesting. Is the HMO1202 a new model?  I cannot seem to find it on equipment.

What I could find is a HMO1102, 100Mhz, $1220

http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO1102/?v=0 (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO1102/?v=0)

and a HMO Max 100Mhz, $1095
http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO-Max/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?v=7401 (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO-Max/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?v=7401)

Anybody knows how they compare to each other and to the HMO1202.

My needs are modest. I was happy with the TDS210 until it died on me and for long captures and decoding I use a Saleae logic analyzer which works well for me. Also, I am aware of the lower cost Chinese products but want to explore a better quality product.

The HMO1002 ranges between 50 and 100MHz, while the HMO1202 comes with 100, 200 or 300 MHz. Sampling rate an memory are twice the size in the HMO1202 compared to the HMO1002.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: fanOfeeDIY on January 25, 2016, 11:04:51 am
Hi,

I added R&S HMO1202 to the Digital Oscilloscope Chart.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/digital-oscilloscope-comparison-chart/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/digital-oscilloscope-comparison-chart/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: nctnico on January 25, 2016, 05:23:32 pm
All the options together (UART, CAN, I2C, SPI and logic channels) cost 1335 euro extra (including VAT).

Damn, that sucks.
The HMO1002 is bundled with the serial options now I believe.

Using the logic channels doesn't cost anything extra. The probe is optional (300 EUR ex VAT) - but you've seen in Dave's tear down of the logic probe what you get for your money. You don't have to buy the probe, by the way - if you've got one from any other "HMO" labelled HAMEG or R&S scope then you can just use that one as well. The logic probe is not locked to one particular scope.

Serial decoding (I2C, SPI, UART) is an option that costs 300 EUR ex VAT. For CAN / LIN it is 500 EUR ex VAT. By the way - I'm not quoting ex-VAT prices because they sound cheaper, but because VAT can be 5% or 25% depending on the country where you live.

The HMO1002MAX which bundles the serial options is a HMO1002 version for the education market.
Either way it is very close to what the scope itself costs. That smells like selling the scope at a loss and hoping everyone buys at least an extra option.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: 1design on January 25, 2016, 06:03:49 pm
I don't think arguing over which features are really needed is going to get us somewhere. Each user has its own needs and these are the reason he/she selected the scope he/she owns. I would love for the low en scopes to have the VSA functionality to demodulate and analyze digital modulations. As this is just a SW add on it should be available, right? This is just to show how an instrument can be stretched to extremes in each direction.
The HMO1202 addresses a part of the market that needs the exact features it offers, as do all the other scopes. I think the price is a bit salty for the hobby market, nevertheless it might find a warm home in many labs that need to make a living on it and need it work all the time to do basic debugging on switchers, serial interfaces, opamps etc. Which is nowadays 85% of scope use in electronic design.
For specific needs like long run acquisitions, differential signal probing, high bandwidth digital demodulation, special low noise applications manufacturers have specific instruments that cater those markets at appropriate prices so that customers that really need them still buy them. :-DMM :-+

BR
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: zapta on January 25, 2016, 06:18:15 pm
I don't think arguing over which features are really needed is going to get us somewhere. Each user has its own needs and these are the reason he/she selected the scope he/she owns.

Very well said. I also don't need 6 digits DMM, 3 digits are just fine for this hobbyist. Others may have different needs and different budget flexibility.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: nazcalines on January 27, 2016, 03:47:32 am
Thanks Dave... been waiting for a teardown review of the entry level R&S scopes! I'm nearly sold on the HMO1202, just waiting for the full review. I remember watching an older review (not sure if it was Dave's) with the intensity graded display looking less than ideal, so I hope that will be addressed.

I do audio/embedded design and have been looking for a new scope for some time. Anything with a loud fan is out right away for me. I'm currently using an HP 54601b and BK precision 20MHz analog scope, so this should be quite an upgrade. The other scope I'm looking at is a used R&S RTM1054, but a bit more risk going that way.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: ormandj on January 29, 2016, 02:57:07 am
Still waiting to hear back about option pricing but managed to get the price for the three models in USD for those interested:

Rohde & Schwarz HMO 1212
2 CH Digital Oscilloscope 100MHz
$1,340.00

Rohde & Schwarz HMO 1222
2 CH MSO Oscilloscope 200MHz
$1,830.00

Rohde & Schwarz HMO 1232
2 CH MSO Oscilloscope 300 MHz
$2,195.00

I'm curious to see the review if/when it is posted. I'm looking for a first oscilloscope and this seems quite nice overall, but it lacks a four channel option which seems like it would be useful if you only have one scope. It'll be interesting to see what Dave's thoughts are on it. Looked like it was pretty decent from the teardown and FFT videos, and comparing apples to apples with the pricing on a non-hacked Rigol it doesn't seem terrible in pricing if it's a reasonable step-up in usability/quality. Too bad there isn't a four channel version available currently.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: zapta on January 29, 2016, 05:45:26 am
That's a great deal, you'll enjoy using it for sure ;)

May be too good to be true. I placed an order for the HMO Max but Tequipment are not sure if they can actually fulfill.

They are nice and responsive people though.


Edit (Feb/1/2016):  Tequipment says the availability issue was resolve and they will ship in two weeks. Looks good.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: smarteebit on February 02, 2016, 05:59:37 am
According to Dave's video, generally I like the HMO1202 scope, more than Keysight/Tek's at the same level. It has good system design, excellent UI, and attractive price. The hardware scheme looks a little old, but I think it is OK, after all this is an industrial market.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: zapta on February 20, 2016, 05:57:17 pm

The CAN/LIN/UART/SPI/I2C decoders come free with this older model $1K oscilloscope.

http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO-Max/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?v=0 (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO-Max/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?v=0)

I placed an order this morning for one. This video was very helpful.

After a few back and forth with Tequipment I got the HMO1002 a few days ago, but this not the end of the saga.  I ordered a 100Mhz, with two protocol decoders packages and got a 50Mhz unit with no decoders. Tequipment is still figuring out what to do. They are nice on the live chat and want to help but must have there a very weird operation.

Overall I like it. It's compact, quiet (no fan in that model), large enough display and more memory than I need. The front panel is cramped and less user friendly that Tektronix oscilloscopes I used in the past but but is good enough for me. The three small shift knobs (horizontal, vertical, trigger) are too small and the encoder has too much friction to a point that it's annoying to use them. I will look for larger knobs (6mm D shape shaft). I got used to having the trigger BNC on the left (initially connected it, assuming it's CH1) and the single set of vertical controls.

My experience with Tequipment suggests that it doesn't have good support or popularity in the US. May be a different case in Europe.

Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: ormandj on February 20, 2016, 06:15:23 pm

The CAN/LIN/UART/SPI/I2C decoders come free with this older model $1K oscilloscope.

http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO-Max/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?v=0 (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO-Max/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?v=0)

I placed an order this morning for one. This video was very helpful.

After a few back and forth with Tequipment I got the HMO1002 a few days ago, but this not the end of the saga.  I ordered a 100Mhz, with two protocol decoders packages and got a 50Mhz unit with no decoders. Tequipment is still figuring out what to do. They are nice on the live chat and want to help but must have there a very weird operation.

Overall I like it. It's compact, quiet (no fan in that model), large enough display and more memory than I need. The front panel is cramped and less user friendly that Tektronix oscilloscopes I used in the past but but is good enough for me. The three small shift knobs (horizontal, vertical, trigger) are too small and the encoder has too much friction to a point that it's annoying to use them. I will look for larger knobs (6mm D shape shaft). I got used to having the trigger BNC on the left (initially connected it, assuming it's CH1) and the single set of vertical controls.

My experience with Tequipment suggests that it doesn't have good support or popularity in the US. May be a different case in Europe.

Try calling them, I've had very good success with their CS over the phone. Chat support was a very different story, I won't try it again. If you're running into issues with R&S, then not sure. I know TEquipment had to reach out to them directly to even provide me quotes, so I don't think R&S is a high volume item for them.

I hope Dave follows up with a HMO1202 review soon, this looks like a neat scope. I already picked up a Rigol since having 4 channels is nice, but for everything that doesn't require 4 channels, having a more responsive scope would be neat. Wonder if they'll come out with a 4 channel model? That would be quite cool!
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Remigijus on February 26, 2016, 02:07:28 pm
Hello David
great video with explanation  :-+

There is a connector from main board to display with several twisted pair. Best view in video is at 8.39s.
The connector seems like Hirose DF19 series. Did anyone knows the name of the yellow transparent tape sticked on plug house?

In my PCB I using this kind of connector and want to make it simple to disconnect.

Any help would be great
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: rrinker on February 26, 2016, 07:14:56 pm
 Looks like Kapton tape to me. My guess is it is there to keep the individual wires to that connector together and to act as a bit of a strain relief.


Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: zapta on February 29, 2016, 03:31:09 pm
After a few back and forth with Tequipment I got the HMO1002 a few days ago, but this not the end of the saga.  I ordered a 100Mhz, with two protocol decoders packages and got a 50Mhz unit with no decoders. Tequipment is still figuring out what to do. They are nice on the live chat and want to help but must have there a very weird operation.

Two weeks after I received from Tequipment a 50Mhz unit and still no show for the 50->100Mhz upgrade and the two decoder options codes that were on the order. Tequipment said today that they will try to contact Rohde & Schwarz again.

Doesn't look good. I may need to return and keep looking.

Edit: Tequipment forwarded me today an email from R&S with the three codes for the 100Mhz upgrade and the two serial decoders for my unit. Installation was easy, using a USB drive, and everything I ordered seems to be enabled. Getting the codes took longer than I expected but is resolved now so this is a happy end. Throughout the process Tequipment people were very friendly over chat and email and assured me that they will get me the keys from Rohde & Schwarz.

Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: zapta on March 02, 2016, 05:28:11 am
The UI of HMO1002 R&S oscilloscope is simple and intuitive. I like it. Here is for example the setting of the  serial decoder (an option)

(http://i.imgur.com/KiYmLXp.jpg)

The HMO1202 should be the same, both share the same manual and the differences are in memory size, sampling rate and the lack of fan in the HMO1002.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: pa3hfu on May 07, 2016, 01:17:14 pm
Can anyone tell me how to trigger both channels on a HMO1212? In the Trigger Menu there is only Ch1 or Ch2. I cannot find a Alternate option to display both channels simulataniously.   TNX!!
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 07, 2016, 05:28:02 pm
Well, many oscilloscopes have NO alternate trigger. It is very common.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: bitseeker on May 08, 2016, 02:19:16 am
It sounds like you're talking about two different things at the same time: triggering vs. displaying.

To display two channels at once, make sure the Ch1 and Ch2 buttons are both lit. Press to turn on/off.

Triggering only occurs on one channel, but will still display both if both Ch1 and Ch2 buttons are on.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: rf-loop on May 08, 2016, 11:14:21 am
It sounds like you're talking about two different things at the same time: triggering vs. displaying.

To display two channels at once, make sure the Ch1 and Ch2 buttons are both lit. Press to turn on/off.

Triggering only occurs on one channel, but will still display both if both Ch1 and Ch2 buttons are on.

Even old Owon SDS8102 can do ALT.

Here fixed freq to CH1, rising edge and trig level in image. CH2 FreqModulated (slow sweep) and falling edge and trig level visble in image. Both channels also separate trigger counter. (note that with changing freq, it is always late or total inaccurate.
Both channels 1GSa/s and both channels well trigged with different input signals frequencies from separate sources also.
This is useful function if need look two signals what are not freq locked each others but want watch simultaneously on the screen.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-842-rohde-schwarz-hmo1202-oscilloscope-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=223238;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 08, 2016, 06:35:29 pm
Yes, but it is still an uncommon feature.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Bud on May 09, 2016, 06:07:50 am
I spotted the use of LMH6518 bandwidth controlled amplifier in the front-end. That may mean the 100MHz version of the scope (HMO1212) may be hardware hackable to 300MHz bandwidth (equivalent of HMO1232). This translates to almost $900 USD savings per the current pricing at TEquipment. In Canadian dollar + tax it is almost $1000 savings  ::)

In the screenshots taken from the teardown video it can be seen the SPI bus going to the chip can be hijacked and a small microcontroller put in the middle to translate the bandwidth set commands. Some surgery would most likely be needed but it seems to have enough trace length to be doable. A hacked scope would have built-in 20MHz BW limit and the "Full BW" which would be whatever the hack sets it for, may be even higher than 300MHz, being limited by perhaps reliable triggering.

If I was not on my hunt for a Keysight scope I would certainly get a 1212 and try the hack.  :-/O

Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on May 09, 2016, 12:38:12 pm
I spotted the use of LMH6518 bandwidth controlled amplifier in the front-end. That may mean the 100MHz version of the scope (HMO1212) may be hardware hackable to 300MHz bandwidth (equivalent of HMO1232). This translates to almost $900 USD savings per the current pricing at TEquipment. In Canadian dollar + tax it is almost $1000 savings  ::)

I'm 90% sure that's the case  ;D
I might open mine up tomorrow. More fun than a software licence hack (not that I know how to do such things).
Of course it's only right to use the logic analyser probes to probe it's own clacker  ;D
A few scopes have this same chip.

The software bandwidth in the LMH6518 is 350MHz though, so it's likely the upper limit is set by other stuff in the front end circuitry.
The 100MHz and 200MHz are surely just enabling this via SPI though.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Bud on May 09, 2016, 02:53:07 pm
if the scope bandwidth is upgradeable then i guess the probes are 300MHz ones for all of them.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: pa3hfu on May 11, 2016, 06:43:36 pm
if the scope bandwidth is upgradeable then i guess the probes are 300MHz ones for all of them.

Check!! ;-)
RT-ZP03 (300 MHz -3 dB) with my HMO1212.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Nozzer on May 18, 2016, 03:54:22 am
I wonder what the bandwidth upgrades cost relative to saving up and buying an instrument with a higher bandwidth? Unfortunately I cannot seem to find anywhere where this information is available.

It would also be interesting to know if they are going to produce an upgraded version of their HMO2024 with the 128kb FFT and bandwidth going beyond the current 200MHz.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: zapta on May 18, 2016, 04:13:41 am
I purchased a 100Mhz version and got a basic version (70Mhz ?) and a bandwidth upgrade license to apply myself. The price of a base unit + update bundle depends on each seller.  I also got with the same bundle a license for protocol decoders.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: Fungus on May 18, 2016, 12:30:53 pm
I wonder what the bandwidth upgrades cost relative to saving up and buying an instrument with a higher bandwidth? Unfortunately I cannot seem to find anywhere where this information is available.

It's in their online store:  :-//
50MHz -> 70MHz upgrade (http://shop.rohde-schwarz.com/mea/hamegrhv572.html): 98 Euros
50MHz -> 100MHz upgrade (http://shop.rohde-schwarz.com/mea/hamegrhv512.html): 198 Euros
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: xmegacorel on June 23, 2016, 12:51:50 pm
I've bought the model hmo1212, but without logic analyzer unit. The price is 300 euro for old version and 360 euro for new one.
Is anybody try to copy this unit? I saw the teardown video and this unit is simple to copy.
Some users wrote that the logic analyzer unit doesn't has hardware protection.
I know that is much more simple to buy Chinese copy of logic analyzer Logic 8 or Usbee.

Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: nowlan on June 23, 2016, 01:23:12 pm
They had an educational pack for the probes. Maybe find a student to buy a set for you?
http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO-ED01/Options/ (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/HMO-ED01/Options/)

I got quoted a similar price when i enquired about the units when released in 2014. I did use my student email however.

I wonder if they would negotiate a better/similar price for you, seeing as stand alone logic analyzers are cheaper.
Maybe follow up with the place you bought yours from.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: xmegacorel on June 23, 2016, 06:25:13 pm
http://support.saleae.com/hc/en-us (http://support.saleae.com/hc/en-us)
Logic 8 costs 219$. It has very very powerful software with infinite buffer and more then 10 type of protocols, works with input 5..1,8V.
R&S have to cost less then 100$. Otherwise unreal to imagine who can buy this bundle.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: rysiontko on August 07, 2016, 06:39:30 pm
Quote
Some users wrote that the logic analyzer unit doesn't has hardware protection.

Do you have any more info, or even better the source?
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: View[+]Finder on August 30, 2016, 12:36:30 am
QUESTION: Battery Powered Operation

Thanks Dave for the teardown--I now have a new 'scope. The HMO1212 is every bit as usable as was indicated in the #842 and will be my portable for work outside the lab. Battery power was speculated in the blog, so I had to check that out. Why? Some of the work I do is on boats and the AC comes from inverted DC (enough on that).

The three-wire cable from the 'scope internal PS to the board is 12V, ground and an AC signal for line-sync, so the battery in my design would substitute for the PS as needed using a barrel plug with a 'disconnect' on the PS 12V when it plugs in. No problem there.

The 'scope draws about 1.3A when working and a bit more on startup, so my battery choice would be a LiPO 3S with 5,000mAH capacity. I bought a Mean Well 12V DC-DC converter for the input thinking that it would keep the 12V steady. Testing the setup with a voltmeter and an electrical load showed that the LiPo battery voltage was far more stable than the 'regulated output' from the converter--probably a good explanation, but I don't have one--so I have had a re-think.

What about using the LiPo without the regulator? Fully charged it is ~12.4V and drops down to 12.3V under a load of 1.3A (like the 'scope). As the battery is drained, the voltage goes down: now 11.85V after 45 minutes. I would not run much below 11 volts for the work I envisage doing on battery.

Here's my question: How 'safe' is it to operate the HMO1212 on voltage ranging from 12.4V to 11.0V? (assume that there is no sagging on changes in the settings on the scope) Also, how safe is it to test this in advance by varying the voltage with a bench PS using the three-wire cable above? (Note: I have tried this without any indication of trouble, but that might just have been luck)

(By 'safe' I mean for the HMO1212, not for me--the mains cord is disconnected, etc.)

Thanks,
Donal

Update: my HMO1212 operates 'as normal' from 11.0V to 12.5V on the bench PS. Below 11V there is a change in the display of a 1 MHz trace as Dave used for the FFT demo.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: hazzer on September 15, 2016, 12:13:03 pm
Hello Donal

Id be interested in any follow up info you have on fitting a battery to the 1202, are you intending to have the battery inside the case or as an add on pack?

Harry
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: zapta on September 15, 2016, 12:37:50 pm
The HMO1002 doesn't need or have a fan so potentially it requires less power to operated.
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: zapta on September 18, 2016, 03:53:40 pm
The other day it happened again. I connected the probe to the external trigger input. Enough is enough. Just ordered a BNC dust cap.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/280559866563 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/280559866563)

;-)

Edit: why waiting for a package from China if I can 3D print a dust cover?  http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1778219 (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1778219)
Title: Re: EEVblog #842 - Rohde & Schwarz HMO1202 Oscilloscope Teardown
Post by: heavenfish on September 28, 2016, 02:07:54 am
Nice tear down!

I don't think the ADC is a bad design choice, because there's ADC08D1020 to replace directly. It's probably a procurement choice to use either of them. There's also ADC08D500 with same package, it may be used in HMO1002 to save some extra money in low end.

The three SRAMs should be used by 2 analog channels and 8 digital channels. My question is where is the memory for waveform buffer? If done in Atmel processor how can it gets to 10k wfm/s?