Author Topic: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED  (Read 56341 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« on: February 13, 2016, 05:31:19 pm »
This time it's France and their governments ludicrous plan to install 1000km of Solar Roadways from French road building giant Colas Wattway.
Dave breaks down yet again why this is pie-in-the-sky bullshit.
Also an update on the 12 months test results of the SolaRoad.nl project in the Netherlands.

Rooftop solar panel output data:
http://pvoutput.org/aggregate.jsp?id=24667
http://pvoutput.org/aggregate.jsp?id=10682
http://pvoutput.org/aggregate.jsp?id=19770

Great article on this:
https://www.equities.com/news/france-s-solar-roads-plan-a-costly-inefficient-boondoggle

« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 12:05:49 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline orion242

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2016, 06:01:59 pm »
Good video.

Impressed these fraudsters can still get money for this crap idea.  Is this the new American dream?   Figure out some BS idea that has a hint of reality and milk investors for everything you can with fancy marketing?

What happens to these jokers went the house of cards finally falls?  Do they walk on to the next BS idea and repeat?
 

Offline RobertoLG

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2016, 06:32:31 pm »
Martin Lorton is doing some research with diferent types of solar panels (small scale), with artificial light, trying to simulate sun light, I know it doen't have directly to do with the roadways, but I tought people would like to learn a bit more about the panell caracteristics and other stuff that affects performance, just poiting out ok?

here https://www.youtube.com/user/mjlorton
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2016, 06:46:10 pm »
Engineering problems aside, I'm sure the Romanian cable thieves will appreciate all that neatly bundled roadside cabling.  :popcorn:
 

Offline nwvlab

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2016, 07:11:27 pm »
Dave, I appreciate your videos, as you always provide numbers and also the references to them!

I'm still impressed that in 2016 there are people thinking that solar roadways can bring advantages :(

I wonder also how long is the energy payback for those devices (considering also maintenance, etc)... Maybe it is much longer than the device lifetime... therefore you possibly won't gain a single joule in making these roadways... what an eco-sustainable choice!

Could not be more feasible and advantageous a covered cycling road/walk way (it would be also better when it rains), with some solar panels on top ? I'm afraid that this would be still  less efficient that a proper solar power plant...

Cheers


Offline firewalker

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2016, 08:28:39 pm »
Now you have an extra panel, set it up to your roadway!

Alexander.
Become a realist, stay a dreamer.

 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2016, 09:55:14 pm »
Could not be more feasible and advantageous a covered cycling road/walk way (it would be also better when it rains), with some solar panels on top ? I'm afraid that this would be still  less efficient that a proper solar power plant...

Yes! Almost anything you can think of is better than solar panels with trucks driving over them.

(...and this sort of thing has been discussed at great length in the other thread)

« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 10:09:22 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2016, 09:56:00 pm »
I wonder also how long is the energy payback for those devices (considering also maintenance, etc)... Maybe it is much longer than the device lifetime... therefore you possibly won't gain a single joule in making these roadways... what an eco-sustainable choice!

Yes, very likely the payback is negative.
Ground and roof systems are insanely reliable and last for decades almost maintenance free.
After 100+ years of road research and refinement, regular roads need fixing every few years, so can't imagine solar roads being any better. Almost certainly worse.

Quote
Could not be more feasible and advantageous a covered cycling road/walk way (it would be also better when it rains), with some solar panels on top ? I'm afraid that this would be still  less efficient that a proper solar power plant...

I showed this video at the end, they did it in  South Korea.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2016, 10:13:37 pm »
How big would the electrical grid to take the power away from the roads to somewhere useful be?

I'd say at least as big as the existing power distribution grids in each country. Plus you'll need a lot of small inverters to boost the voltage up to a decent transmission level.

How much would that cost?


 

Offline kripton2035

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2016, 10:42:49 pm »
Dave, you should subtitle (in french) your video and send it to our french ministers...
we are used to politicians wasting money here, but yes they have found a new ecological way to do it for some more years...

Offline Guni

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2016, 10:50:13 pm »
From our point of view, from engineering and economical point of view this is bullshit. But if we ask our-self who will get the money, who will get this contract ...?  You know it's not a black and white.
 

Online Zbig

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2016, 11:33:14 pm »
Dave, you're overdoing that silly "head explodes" thing. Could you just stick to the old good facepalms, pretty please?  :D
« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 11:37:15 pm by Zbig »
 

Offline kripton2035

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2016, 12:00:24 am »
From our point of view, from engineering and economical point of view this is bullshit. But if we ask our-self who will get the money, who will get this contract ...?  You know it's not a black and white.
simple: every people in france will pay a part of these solar roadways
and even I think that with europeans money flows, every citizen who pays taxes in europe will pay a small but will pay a part of these ...

Offline old gregg

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2016, 12:31:57 am »
as always in France, they say loads of stuff but it may never see the daylight.

Quote
Dave, you should subtitle (in french) your video and send it to our french ministers...


like if they would care... ;D
 
 

Online Dr. Frank

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2016, 12:42:39 am »
Dave, that's a lively and competent video about this subject, again!

Your concerns will not be heard in France, or by the French minister, anyhow, because it's in English only..

Most French are reluctant to understand or speak English (and also German, of course), pity that... exceptions are the French members of this forum, of course.



Anyhow, this stupid plan will for sure be realized, as politicians are mostly too dumb to think problems through, and they are rarely competent, and advisory-resistant.

In Germany, we have similar half bred "green" energy / CO2 reduction activities, initiated by our famous 'We-Will-Manage-That' chancellor, Dr. phys. rer. nat (!) Angela Merkel.
That's the brute force switch to "regenerative" energy sources and battery powered cars.
Both concepts are still far away from complete practical and sustainable and stable realization, so both the energy supply, and also the batterized mobility will fail in a few years, or will be at least mostly inefficient and costly.

Frank
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 12:49:15 am by Dr. Frank »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2016, 12:55:20 am »
Dave, you should subtitle (in french) your video and send it to our french ministers...

If someone wants to provide the French subtitle file then I can upload it.
 

Offline TinkerFan

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2016, 02:05:20 am »
Dave in rage mode is just an awful lot of fun :popcorn:
Can only be topped by solar roadways WITH Dave
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Offline wblock

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2016, 02:15:36 am »
Every one of these should link to that Korean solar road as an example of a practical way to use solar panels with roads.

And I'm still waiting to see how anyone thinks these panels will survive encounters with tire chains or snowplows.  Australia might not have much of either, but France does.

 

Offline Artlav

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2016, 02:18:59 am »
I guess the only thing that would put this to rest is someone actually building it and honestly publishing the data.
As a net gain there will be knowledge about how to build a reliable solar road and what problems would come out of it.
Might come in handy for Mercury colonies and amusement parks, perhaps?

After 100+ years of road research and refinement, regular roads need fixing every few years, so can't imagine solar roads being any better. Almost certainly worse.
Depends. In Montenegro there are still many roads that were built by the late king almost a 100 years ago, still in good conditions.
However, they are paved with granite mix and don't see more than a few cars per hour, so maybe not that well a comparison.
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Offline kripton2035

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2016, 02:37:41 am »
Dave, you should subtitle (in french) your video and send it to our french ministers...

If someone wants to provide the French subtitle file then I can upload it.
I may like to do it, but you're really outputting too many words per minute, and more when you're upset ! ;)

Offline jancumps

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2016, 03:38:23 am »
Dave, you should subtitle (in french) your video and send it to our french ministers...

If someone wants to provide the French subtitle file then I can upload it.
they'll understand it without subtitles. Days that the french only spoke french are long gone.
 

Online bitwelder

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2016, 03:41:34 am »
This must be getting the 21st century version of "dig up a hole in the street and re-fill it", with the added 'bonus' (or who knows, perhaps it's even the primary goal) of filling also the pockets of the PV industry contractors.
 

Offline Razor512

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2016, 03:55:54 am »
In my area, the road generally has to be repaired every 1-3 years, after winter, there will be some damage, as well as chunks knocked out when the plows run through. The road also takes a beating due to large trucks regularly running through.

Other than that, they also often need to dig the road up when ever they need to do maintenance of water, gas, electrical and data lines. Solar panels on a road used be vehicles will never last long enough to cover their own cost.

The problem with governments handling this stuff, is the people who make these choices never think long term, they think only of what is good for their image right now.
E.g., some local schools have ordered ipads for all of the students to use in class, after a round 2 years, most of them are not working, the remaining ones have a host of issues such as pressure marks on the screen from people pushing it too hard, scratches, and crap battery life because they are run all day. When I was doing student teaching, and wanted to use the tablets, the cooperating teacher recommended that I avoid them since they are too unreliable, and don't last long enough to get any work done.

The principal got tricked into getting a ton of non serviceable tablets that ended up being junk after about 2 years.
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2016, 04:06:06 am »
What they are really doing is not building a solar roadway, they are mining EU subsidies. |O :scared: The whole of the EU political structure is now out of control and open to abuse by any company. :--
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2016, 04:42:48 am »

Yes, very likely the payback is negative.
Ground and roof systems are insanely reliable and last for decades almost maintenance free.
After 100+ years of road research and refinement, regular roads need fixing every few years, so can't imagine solar roads being any better. Almost certainly worse.


 Unless you happen to be in the path of a meteorite.....   :D
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2016, 05:08:41 am »
The problem with governments handling this stuff, is the people who make these choices never think long term, they think only of what is good for their image right now.
E.g., some local schools have ordered ipads for all of the students to use in class, after a round 2 years, most of them are not working, the remaining ones have a host of issues such as pressure marks on the screen from people pushing it too hard, scratches, and crap battery life because they are run all day. When I was doing student teaching, and wanted to use the tablets, the cooperating teacher recommended that I avoid them since they are too unreliable, and don't last long enough to get any work done.

The principal got tricked into getting a ton of non serviceable tablets that ended up being junk after about 2 years.

How much do they normally spend on paper, books, crayons, wooden counting blocks, uniforms, sports kit, designer school bags, etc. every two years?

Put it in perspective and a tablet every two years might not be a big deal (so long as they get good value from it before it breaks).

(Although I'm sure there's a bigger problem lurking underneath: They'll be totally screwed on price for all the special educational apps that the kids will need)

 

Offline jesuscf

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2016, 05:37:46 am »
After hearing the news about this BS, I was waiting for this video from Dave.  Not disappointed!  Let see if Thunderf00t makes a video too.
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Offline Ampere

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2016, 07:16:11 am »
It seems like it would be better to place the panels over the roads. Motorists would be provided shade and protection from rain, and the panels would be able to function even during the largest traffic jam. The best part of it is that existing solar panel materials would be usable because they wouldn't need to withstand such heavy loads nor would they need LEDs to show lines in the road.

Everyone wins.
 

Offline Razor512

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2016, 08:18:43 am »
The problem with governments handling this stuff, is the people who make these choices never think long term, they think only of what is good for their image right now.
E.g., some local schools have ordered ipads for all of the students to use in class, after a round 2 years, most of them are not working, the remaining ones have a host of issues such as pressure marks on the screen from people pushing it too hard, scratches, and crap battery life because they are run all day. When I was doing student teaching, and wanted to use the tablets, the cooperating teacher recommended that I avoid them since they are too unreliable, and don't last long enough to get any work done.

The principal got tricked into getting a ton of non serviceable tablets that ended up being junk after about 2 years.

How much do they normally spend on paper, books, crayons, wooden counting blocks, uniforms, sports kit, designer school bags, etc. every two years?

Put it in perspective and a tablet every two years might not be a big deal (so long as they get good value from it before it breaks).

(Although I'm sure there's a bigger problem lurking underneath: They'll be totally screwed on price for all the special educational apps that the kids will need)

Yep, they get screwed on licensing, and it doesn't replace textbooks or writing supplies, it is used as a supplement to a lesson. Other than that, schools mandate writing across the curriculum, then lots of textbook use.
To make matters worst, they are less function than the heavily discounted lenoovo notebook PCs that the schools typically get.
Before the tablet craze, the schools would get thinkpad x130e laptops which cost a little under $200 each after the educational discount. The batteries were removable, so the schools simply stocked  a case of replacements, and depending on use (the upper grades use them more), they would simply swap the batteries a week before the next school year started.

On the other hand, apple doesn't even give a discount on their tablets, and their iMacs only a very tiny discount, the schools pay a ton for them, and they don't stand up to the abuse.

For the tablets, most of them simply sit in the armored storage case, but never get replaced or serviced, since they can't really be serviced. The IT support services for the schools pretty much want nothing to do with them.

Other than that,it is easy to trick the administrative staff into ordering a ton of them because many of them may already have an iphone or an ipad, and they will get suckered into seeing all of the educational "benefits" of using them in the classroom to enhance lessons.

Sadly li-ion batteries that become frustrating to use after 500-700 charge cycles, are simply not fit for a school environment; same for touch screen displays.


-==--=-==-=-=-

On a side note, for solar roads, they will have trouble when it snows.

After the last large snow fall in NY, we have spots like this on the roads.

As soon as the snow begins to fall, trucks flood the streets, dumping salt, then when the snow begins to pile up, the plows come out and they scrape over the streets, while a salt dispensor dumps the large rock salt material, or even sand and larger rock material if the salt is not effective in handling the snow and ice (in order to avoid traction issues for cars and trucks on the road).



What needs to be determined is how the panels will stand up to that type of abuse.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 08:29:42 am by Razor512 »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2016, 09:01:38 am »
After hearing the news about this BS, I was waiting for this video from Dave.  Not disappointed!  Let see if Thunderf00t makes a video too.

A Thunderf00t one would be fun, as always, he doesn't hold back.
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2016, 09:41:15 am »
Dave, you should subtitle (in french) your video and send it to our french ministers...
we are used to politicians wasting money here, but yes they have found a new ecological way to do it for some more years...
Since when do politicians care about ROI or viability or long term impact or efficiency? Those are non existent measures for them. They only care about themselves, money and votes, the latter two serving themselves.
I've shot this image last year in Strasbourg, France, Rue d'Istanbul (nice european name  :palm:). Notice how the panels are mounted on a 90 degrees angle, they face south. And how the perfectly flat, top of the building is not covered with perfectly angled solar panels on mounts. I saw this multiple times, different parts of the city. They are not there for generating energy the most efficient, economic way... They are there for the show. At least they face south.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2016, 10:03:37 am »
It seems like it would be better to place the panels over the roads. Motorists would be provided shade and protection from rain, and the panels would be able to function even during the largest traffic jam. The best part of it is that existing solar panel materials would be usable because they wouldn't need to withstand such heavy loads nor would they need LEDs to show lines in the road.
This makes a lot of sense but the problem is that it will be harder to move/extend the road later on and many people are afraid to drive in a tunnel.
The one thing Dave doesn't address but is very likely the reason why solar roadways actually DO make sense: SPACE. A road is an area of land nobody cares about if it is fitted with solar panels. If you drive through the north of Germany you'll see quite large fields perfectly suitable for keeping animals or growing food which are filled with solar panels so valuable land is wasted. The picture above shows the problem with putting solar panels on buildings: Aesthetics. IMHO you also can't compare prices from established technology versus new technology and say the established technology has already won. I you do that there will never be any progress.

And even if the French solar road fails the government has sponsored some jobs and hopefully gained a bunch of engineers with hands-on experience with solar panel technology.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 10:20:57 am by nctnico »
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Offline void_error

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2016, 10:53:51 am »
I guess the only thing that would put this to rest is someone actually building it and honestly publishing the data.
As a net gain there will be knowledge about how to build a reliable solar road and what problems would come out of it.
I think the whole thing with solar roadways should have started smaller, not with several square meters of solar panels lying on the ground, but with solar doormats :wtf:.
It would have probably proven how inefficient it would be to cover scratched solar panels with dust and dirt and we would have had none of this bullshit waste of money and time and resources.
Trust me, I'm NOT an engineer.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2016, 11:09:48 am »
These kinds of projects should probably just be seen as job creation schemes, fueled by the very low interest rates that prevail today.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2016, 11:37:09 am »
The one thing Dave doesn't address but is very likely the reason why solar roadways actually DO make sense: SPACE.

Because the ridiculous number of practical downsides of using them as a road surface completely trumps the fact that it might make sense in theory.
You shouldn't invest in something that just makes sense in theory, if the practical downsides are already known, and demonstrably will not get better with time.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2016, 12:46:35 pm »
It seems like it would be better to place the panels over the roads. Motorists would be provided shade and protection from rain, and the panels would be able to function even during the largest traffic jam. The best part of it is that existing solar panel materials would be usable because they wouldn't need to withstand such heavy loads nor would they need LEDs to show lines in the road.
This makes a lot of sense but the problem is that it will be harder to move/extend the road later on and many people are afraid to drive in a tunnel.
The one thing Dave doesn't address but is very likely the reason why solar roadways actually DO make sense: SPACE. A road is an area of land nobody cares about if it is fitted with solar panels. If you drive through the north of Germany you'll see quite large fields perfectly suitable for keeping animals or growing food which are filled with solar panels so valuable land is wasted. The picture above shows the problem with putting solar panels on buildings: Aesthetics. IMHO you also can't compare prices from established technology versus new technology and say the established technology has already won. I you do that there will never be any progress.

And even if the French solar road fails the government has sponsored some jobs and hopefully gained a bunch of engineers with hands-on experience with solar panel technology.

I've been thinking on similar lines - and came up with this idea (using a bit of rough image bashing):

Before the last lanes are added:


and after:
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 12:48:53 pm by Brumby »
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2016, 12:57:49 pm »
Just a few points that came to mind very easily:

  • The strong centre barrier would be a good starting point for securing the support stanchions and protecting them against impact.
  • There is minimal chance of overshadowing by vegetation and nearby structures
  • High loads can still travel along the road - just avoiding the centre lanes and thus keeping to the slow lanes.
  • Road works are minimally impacted
  • Existing solar technology will provide more power than any road surface based madness
  • Reduced risk of accident damage
  • Electrical risk elevated

The wind risks are much higher, though...
 

Offline edy

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2016, 01:36:17 pm »
Me thinks there is a construction mafia in collusion with politicians and some greasing going on to get these ludicrous projects on the taxpayer dollar.  :palm:  Sounds to me like it is a way to create "work" for either unions or spread money into the economy to trickle it down and hope it boosts the economy, as many infrastructure projects hope to accomplish. There is also the potential "ecotourism" spin-off as who knows what is going to line this road. Maybe a "tech-valley" will be started.

What happened to independent scientific/engineering evaluation as demanded by (a) the opposition government and (b) the taxpaying public. We in Canada have had similar engineering fiascos that cost us huge amounts of money for no reason. Just because it *can* be done, doesn't mean it *should* be done. Then again, the government loves spending other people's money.

I like the South Korean idea the best.   :-+  It has to be much cheaper than paving the roads, yet still follows the roadway. It creates a sheltered path for cyclists and also an easy way to guide cables and send out maintenance workers without disrupting traffic. Depending on the direction of the road, it can be set at an angle to maximize efficiency (east-west roads would be best).

Let's hope it is all talk and no action, for the sake of the French tax-paying public who are about to be reamed royally if they are to fund such a project... and don't forget to follow the money trail as I can't help but suspect there is a huge dose of either nepotism, bribery or kickbacks involved here somewhere.

SOUTH KOREAN ROADWAY:

« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 01:40:36 pm by edy »
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Offline DrGeoff

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2016, 01:44:40 pm »
It seems like it would be better to place the panels over the roads. Motorists would be provided shade and protection from rain, and the panels would be able to function even during the largest traffic jam. The best part of it is that existing solar panel materials would be usable because they wouldn't need to withstand such heavy loads nor would they need LEDs to show lines in the road.

Everyone wins.

It would be better if they were as far away from roads as possible.
Have you seen what happens when some dickhead dumptruck driver 'accidentally' tilts his tray in a tunnel? We see that in Sydney on a regular basis. There goes all the fittings again. Imagine the devastation when he does it under a solar installation!

Better to stick them in a field as a solar farm.
Was it really supposed to do that?
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2016, 02:03:52 pm »
I like the South Korean idea the best.   :-+  It has to be much cheaper than paving the roads, yet still follows the roadway. It creates a sheltered path for cyclists and also an easy way to guide cables and send out maintenance workers without disrupting traffic. Depending on the direction of the road, it can be set at an angle to maximize efficiency (east-west roads would be best).

Let's hope it is all talk and no action, for the sake of the French tax-paying public who are about to be reamed royally if they are to fund such a project... and don't forget to follow the money trail as I can't help but suspect there is a huge dose of either nepotism, bribery or kickbacks involved here somewhere.

SOUTH KOREAN ROADWAY:



Okay.... I hadn't seen that before.
 

Offline edy

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2016, 02:21:04 pm »
Okay.... I hadn't seen that before.


I'm not saying the South Korean idea is the best either.... But it is (as Dave would say) "Orders Of Magnitude" better than a solar roadway IN THE ROADWAY ITSELF. It some form of "solar" mixed with a "roadway" so that is close enough to make it cool and news-catchy, which seems to be about all the substance there is to these projects... news-bites for the uneducated public who have no idea how costly and inefficient they are.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 02:23:14 pm by edy »
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Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2016, 02:40:26 pm »
Yes, it certainly is better than the 'drive over' solar panel solution, but it did give me one more feature of the idea I cobbled together:
  • Can be retrofitted to existing roads

(Now I'm just waiting for someone to show me it's not a new idea.  The South Korean one came close...)
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2016, 03:23:10 pm »
 Seems fairly reasonable to me. Maybe not the total area and thus power generation the roadway idiots would like to claim, but no special new technology needed, and it takes advantage of existing space, and no wiring trenches to dig along the shoulders of the road. Are there any reports available on the Korean system? Be interesting to see how that compares to the calculated true results of the solar roads - like Dave's best case calculations, not the pie in the sky estimates from the backers.

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2016, 04:33:33 pm »
Seems fairly reasonable to me. Maybe not the total area and thus power generation the roadway idiots would like to claim, but no special new technology needed, and it takes advantage of existing space, and no wiring trenches to dig along the shoulders of the road. Are there any reports available on the Korean system? Be interesting to see how that compares to the calculated true results of the solar roads - like Dave's best case calculations, not the pie in the sky estimates from the backers.

I've yet to see any data at all on the South Korean system, or even a capacity figure.
 

Offline sarepairman2

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2016, 04:36:58 pm »
well at least solar road way panels cannot fall off the roof after they are mounted by drunken contractors (have you ever met a roofer??).  :-DD

to play devils advocate, 

I feel like in general solar roadways have the benefit of being essentially town/goverment run, as they are on public space, so its easy for city planning/power company/etc to have stable numbers to work with.

Otherwise you have the uncertainty of "how many people are going to go for putting solar panels on their roof and stick with it and maintain their systems", meaning the need for redundancy never really goes away, and citizens are kind of holding each other hostage if taken to the ultimate extreme(could be a good or bad thing). Would you want a goverment inspector coming to your home to make sure your solar panels are in good condition since they are a community good? Solar roadways would allow like, "strategic" decisions to be made imo.

certain kinds of decisions could be avoided just because there is the idea that its possible for the citizens to hold the goverment by the balls by taking down the solar panels they own. Imagine if you owned the sidewalk infront of your house and a neighborhood could just have a informal town meeting and say we want to charge the goverment to remove the fence off our sidewalk. if our demands are not met....

I could see solar roadways becoming "reliable critical infrastructure" and essentially guaranteeing safe roads (as there is incentive to upkeep them as they produce money, rather then the only incentive currently being complaints about bad road conditions.

Solar road ways could transform the electric grid and have politicians be OK with it. Rooftop panels + civil liberties results in a rather ad-hock system.

Granted, this means if you want to buy a street to build a building it might be alot more expensive to buy as it is a power plant lol, talk about zoning nightmares
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 04:40:39 pm by sarepairman2 »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2016, 04:37:22 pm »
Let's hope it is all talk and no action, for the sake of the French tax-paying public who are about to be reamed royally if they are to fund such a project... and don't forget to follow the money trail as I can't help but suspect there is a huge dose of either nepotism, bribery or kickbacks involved here somewhere.

Not implying it's the case here, but the head of the company that own Colas has been investigated for political donation fraud before:
http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/9601160251/bouygues-chief-under-scrutiny
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2016, 04:39:44 pm »
to play devils advocate, 
I feel like in general solar roadways have the benefit of being essentially town/goverment run, as they are on public space, so its easy for city planning/power company/etc to have stable numbers to work with.

There are other ways to do that without driving cars on the bloody panels. Look at the South Korean example for starters.

Quote
I could see solar roadways becoming "reliable critical infrastructure"

Regular roads require maintenance every few years. Solar roads and reliability should not be used in the same sentence.
 

Offline sarepairman2

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2016, 04:41:21 pm »
i meant that they would stay in goverment control no matter what. and you would not have a protest about the "gobbermint stealing oah ruufs"

as in, we can send in some national guard to restore power to our city and we can use them to make serious grid planning decisions without trying to push mad legislation.

as a politician I could admire the fact that the community has such a nice distributed power plant, but I could not say "oh we won't bother running HV transmissions lines here because we crowdsource power" because then the town would have me by the balls.

And of course the power company could fuck the whole community if the system is that we have to sell power to them or use it ourselves. You would need a darknet/bitcoin style setup for power routing.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 04:47:02 pm by sarepairman2 »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2016, 04:45:48 pm »
i meant that they would stay in goverment control no matter what. and you would not have a protest about the "gobbermint stealing oah ruufs"
as in, we can send in some national guard to restore power to our city and we can use them to make serious grid planning decisions without trying to push mad legislation.

What's all this talk about government stealing people's roofs?
The government has tons of land and building that don't have solar panels. Put panels on that land first.
People's homes are their homes, if you want panels on them offer incentives for people to take it up. Works well in many countries.
 

Offline sarepairman2

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2016, 04:47:46 pm »
i meant that they would stay in goverment control no matter what. and you would not have a protest about the "gobbermint stealing oah ruufs"
as in, we can send in some national guard to restore power to our city and we can use them to make serious grid planning decisions without trying to push mad legislation.

What's all this talk about government stealing people's roofs?
The government has tons of land and building that don't have solar panels. Put panels on that land first.
People's homes are their homes, if you want panels on them offer incentives for people to take it up. Works well in many countries.

yes but you could never make a radical change this way, I am just saying that road ways might allow for that if there is enough of them.

I think there is a strong benefit to them, of course I am not saying that NOW is the right time to implement them.

if there is enough sqft of goverment building roof to meet all demand then the point is moot. i am assuming there is not.

how would you do distributed power in a suburb without solar roadways? almost all private land i imagine (other then roads).

i am focusing on the point of decentralized power generation right outside of your house, not solar energy. a powerful idea imo.



imo solar roadways fit under the umbra of decentralized power creation. decentralized anything is way more expensive then centralized anything, almost always. you can't attack the idea of decentralized power with the alternative of power plants (large land areas), and using private property of course becomes a massive political problem.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 04:59:42 pm by sarepairman2 »
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2016, 04:54:38 pm »
Would be interesting to see Colas put the panels through the standard roadway accelerated test that is used with every new construction or application method. Basically a section is made in the yard to the exact spec, 50m long. then you run a bogie over it on standard truck tyres and axles, with a load equal to the maximum allowable axle loading ( here that would be 22 tons or so per axle) using a long steel guide beam and a heavy electric motor so you basically run it back and forth 24/7 for 6 months, every week taking readings on wear of the road, deflection, tyre wear, power use and such.

This test gives you a fair indicator of how this surface will fare in the typical 15 year road life cycle before replacement. In most cases a tar road will have deep rutting and compaction after 5 months of this, and a concrete road will exhibit major edge damage and joint failure, along with severe surface wear.

A solar road tile will not survive this standard test, and any stick on coat will fail long before the end as well from the cold flow of the tar underlay. The picture of an empty truck on the tile is fine, now just start the engine and, with the brakes on, do a 5 cycle dry steer on the tile and see if it survives when you put a dual front steer on it loaded to the legal axle load with crusher mix. 12 tons load per steering axle, which can damage standard good tar that has not had a long enough time to outgas, or on a very hot day.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2016, 04:59:41 pm »
I guess the only thing that would put this to rest is someone actually building it and honestly publishing the data.
But that would require time, investment, and most importantly, honesty and accepting you've been wrong in the end, so it'll never happen (well yeah it will, but only on a full scale implementation so you get to harvest all the money from building an entire system before people get to see how useless it is, then you can say "oh well too bad, but now it's there anyway so let's just use it", and get the 2nd half of the money through the utterly expensive maintenance it will require :palm:).

Is this the new American dream?   Figure out some BS idea that has a hint of reality and milk investors for everything you can with fancy marketing?

What happens to these jokers went the house of cards finally falls?  Do they walk on to the next BS idea and repeat?

Yep my conclusion too. Best concise description I've ever read about it.
 

Offline sarepairman2

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2016, 05:00:41 pm »
i wonder how resistant these solar panel road ways are to nuclear combat/solar flares/terrorism vs current infrastructure.


i would appreciate if you evaluated this issue. many governments are putting in serious $$$ into hardening their infrastructure, which is kind of a hidden cost.

perhaps a well designed distributed power generation system could harden nations. or weaken them, i dont know.

power generation in the hands of the people reminds be a little bit of the Chinese "great leap forward".
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 05:36:56 pm by sarepairman2 »
 

Offline ruurdjan

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2016, 05:47:27 pm »
i meant that they would stay in goverment control no matter what. and you would not have a protest about the "gobbermint stealing oah ruufs"
as in, we can send in some national guard to restore power to our city and we can use them to make serious grid planning decisions without trying to push mad legislation.

What's all this talk about government stealing people's roofs?
The government has tons of land and building that don't have solar panels. Put panels on that land first.
People's homes are their homes, if you want panels on them offer incentives for people to take it up. Works well in many countries.

I think you'll find that the total roof area of all government buildings is totally dwarfed by the total area of all federal roadways.
US example: http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/104501
10.000 buildings across the US (let's assume they can put solar panels on leased buildings). Average area? No idea... Let's say 100m2 for argument's sake. So that's 1 Million m2.
Total length of all US interstates (federal owned - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System): 77.000km. Average wdths - again, no idea but let's say 6 lanes plus two shoulders (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_standards) = 6*12ft + 2*10ft = 92ft = 28 meter.
Total area: 28*70 Million: 2000 square  meter.
A 2000-fold difference (less than I expected).

I'd be interested in a non-monetary calculation of efficiency - stating 'it's bullshit' just based on $$ doesn't take into account the cost of the environment (which we can't really reasonably express in $$).

Engineering-wise - I'd agree, it's a very hard case to make. But that for me just means we should try harder, not abandon the idea.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2016, 07:37:06 pm »
yes but you could never make a radical change this way, I am just saying that road ways might allow for that if there is enough of them.

Having "enough" of something that doesn't work properly and has a negative return, is not a solution you want at any cost.

Quote
I think there is a strong benefit to them, of course I am not saying that NOW is the right time to implement them.

It will never be the right time to implement them. That is the entire point.
If you have numbers to prove that solar roadways are viable, then present them.

And you said you think there is a "strong benefit to them". How can you possibly know that? No need to answer, because it's a rhetorical question, the answer is you can't. Why? Because there is zero data that solar roads are in any way practical as a road surface. And the evidence as solar production system actually shows the opposite to "strong benefit".
You obviously think the concept has a strong benefit, but sorry, that doesn't cut it.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 07:45:56 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2016, 07:38:43 pm »
Engineering-wise - I'd agree, it's a very hard case to make. But that for me just means we should try harder, not abandon the idea.

See my previous post about providing numbers to prove this will ever be a viable solution. I'm betting you can't provide such numbers.
The idea should be abandoned, it is demonstrably lunacy.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2016, 08:03:45 pm »
It will never be the right time to implement them. That is the entire point.

I agree with you 99%, but I'd still say cautious and as we say, never say "never".

Playing Devil's advocate here of course, but how would the numbers bode with panels with 80% efficiency?
Of course it will always be more energy efficient to run them in a place where there isn't anything covering or rolling on them, but if it's the only place they are accepted there might still probably be a point in the future where a combination of some secondary aspects can push the currently negative return into the positive, even if only slightly. Could be evolutions in completely unrelated fields that aren't even taken into account or thought of today.
While putting panels overhead like in the Korean solution makes so much more sense, maybe there'll be a day where just laying a layer of panels on the road and only needing a conventional cleaning truck to run on them every once in a while during quiet times at night to keep them clean becomes cheaper and simpler than building structures to put panels on top of them then dealing with more difficult access to clean them, even when factoring the drop in efficiency.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 08:05:37 pm by Kilrah »
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2016, 08:07:16 pm »
In an effort to approach the subject from a different perspective, I started to think - "What would it take for solar roadways to become viable?"

.... and the more attributes that were considered, the more it became obvious that many of the improvements that might be developed for solar roadways, simply put the more traditional solar installations that much further ahead.

The only time they could be 'viable' is if there was nowhere else that could be used and economics became second to power delivery.

.... and we'd be in a right royal mess if it ever got to that.
 

Offline nwvlab

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2016, 08:43:26 pm »

Playing Devil's advocate here of course, but how would the numbers bode with panels with 80% efficiency?

State of the art multijunction solar cells can't even reach 50% (http://www.nrel.gov/ncpv/images/efficiency_chart.jpg). And I'm talking about cells, because the panel efficiency is even lower. Furthermore, they cost a lot and they are used in those applications where there is almost no other ways to have electric energy at discrete power levels, such as satellites.

Single junction solar cells have a theoretical maximum efficiency smaller than 34%. That's the Shockley–Queisser limit.

We should not only look at the efficiency, but also we should consider the energy payback time (if it's longer than the device lifetime and if you can obtain energy by other means, it's better not to use them!), and reliability.

For instance, if they had a good reliability, organic solar cells, despite they have a much lower efficiency, could be more suitable, because they are very cheap (roll to roll manufacture) and the energy payback time is short (much shorther than single junction silicon cells). And there is plenty of unused space.
Unfortunately, they have a very poor reliability (especially if you plan to use them in a such harsh environment as roadways)... By the way, even if they had the best reliability ever, you should avoid using them in applications where shading is frequent (i.e. don't put on a road!), because it is very stressful for them.

Offline Kilrah

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2016, 09:18:33 pm »

Playing Devil's advocate here of course, but how would the numbers bode with panels with 80% efficiency?

State of the art multijunction solar cells can't even reach 50% (http://www.nrel.gov/ncpv/images/efficiency_chart.jpg). And I'm talking about cells, because the panel efficiency is even lower.
Single junction solar cells have a theoretical maximum efficiency smaller than 34%. That's the Shockley–Queisser limit.

I'm only playing on Dave's insistance about never. Maybe in 50 years we'll have solar cell technology that's got nothing in common with today's, is based on things we don't even know of now and for which 80% efficiency is peanuts, comes for the price of a piece of paper and with which mechanical resistance is not a concern, nobody knows.

To me declaring that something will never be possible is as much of a broken statement as saying solar roadways are viable today ;)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 09:23:14 pm by Kilrah »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2016, 09:28:04 pm »
It will never be the right time to implement them. That is the entire point.
I agree with you 99%, but I'd still say cautious and as we say, never say "never".

I did concede in the video that there are perhaps niche case uses.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2016, 09:31:52 pm »
I'm only playing on Dave's insistance about never. Maybe in 50 years we'll have solar cell technology that's got nothing in common with today's, is based on things we don't even know of now and for which 80% efficiency is peanuts, comes for the price of a piece of paper and with which mechanical resistance is not a concern, nobody knows.

The physics won't change:
1) Flat solar cells on the road will not be as efficient as properly installed angled ones.
2) The dirt and grime blocking the won't magically disappear, unless we get hover conversions.
3) The maintenance and installation issues won't magically go away.
 

Offline ornea

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2016, 10:09:43 pm »
Dave, you should subtitle (in french) your video and send it to our french ministers...

If someone wants to provide the French subtitle file then I can upload it.

Better yet, dub into french. It would be a hoot to hear dubbed with the same passion and enthusiasm as Dave put into this one.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2016, 10:22:11 pm »
The physics won't change:
1) Flat solar cells on the road will not be as efficient as properly installed angled ones.
2) The dirt and grime blocking the won't magically disappear, unless we get hover conversions.
3) The maintenance and installation issues won't magically go away.
No, but it's impossible to say all of these will never become an acceptable compromise either.

1) Sure, but what if it's no more possibility to install properly angled ones (because politics or space availability e.g. all houses are already equipped, other land reserved for different uses)?
2) Dirt and grime is also an issue on other installations, and roads could actually be easier to clean
3) No, but they could become easy enough compared to other options to make it interesting.

Again it's only the never I can't concieve, only a "not in the foreseeable future".

No issues about the rest, incidentally I'd go further and say that right now even just researching it is a blatant waste of time and effort given that in the current state of things and foreseeable evolutions it only takes quick calculations to show there isn't a chance as you've shown. I put it in the same facepalm-worthy category as attempts at things like electric airplanes which have been demonstrated recently, for which it's obvious that given the current battery technology and foreseeable short term evolutions they're completely pointless. Spending a couple of years now making some custom developments (motors, controllers and things) based on existing general purpose designs to make it work in that application only to show it off when you know you've got nothing to power it to do anything useful makes absolutely no sense, the required developments are minor and can be done quickly enough that you'd better just keep that idea on a shelf until a solution to the major problem is there, or about to be. You'll have more than enough time to build your plane and develop your simple custom electronics between the moment the magic battery with 10x the performance enters production and actually becomes available for you to use. And given that likely won't be before years, anything done today will be obsolete when the time for it comes, given advances in other technological aspects you'll be able to do it better and cheaper if you do it at the right time e.g. once you've actually got all the required parts and technologies at your disposal, so really a total waste.

Unfortunately there's a thing called marketing that craves for "shiny new exciting" but useless things and will justify any level of engineering stupidity and somehow manage to put value in that wasted time...  :palm:
On the other hand that allows people who would probably be bored or not have a job to do something that they probably find cool or like, so well...
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 10:25:20 pm by Kilrah »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2016, 10:28:37 pm »
Better yet, dub into french. It would be a hoot to hear dubbed with the same passion and enthusiasm as Dave put into this one.

Dos Youtube even support audio dubbing?
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2016, 10:30:50 pm »
The one thing Dave doesn't address but is very likely the reason why solar roadways actually DO make sense: SPACE.

Because the ridiculous number of practical downsides of using them as a road surface completely trumps the fact that it might make sense in theory.
You shouldn't invest in something that just makes sense in theory, if the practical downsides are already known, and demonstrably will not get better with time.
Still... what if roads end up to be the only place left to place additional solar panels? This is very unlikely in Australia because there is a lot of space out there where you could build a huge solar farm but in Europe there is not much space for solar panels. And there is always the 'great but not in my back yard effect'. In the NL they already have trouble putting wind turbines several tens of kilometers off-shore because people complain their view over the sea will be affected. The same goes for solar panels mounted at their optimum angle: the space available for that is very limited in cities where it has to look pleasant as well.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 10:33:18 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2016, 10:40:46 pm »
Dos Youtube even support audio dubbing?
Just upload a separate video with different soundtrack.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2016, 10:46:58 pm »
Still... what if roads end up to be the only place left to place additional solar panels?

Another theoretic what-if question.
I'd be staggered that if all rooftops and suitable public land, and roads and parking lots covered etc didn't cater for all our solar supply needs.
There are just so many other much much much better options than driving on solar panels, it the absolute last desperate resort, and IMO not even worthy of a "what if" discussion.
But go ahead, argue away, good luck trying to come up with solutions for driving on solar panels that that low enough maintenance that doesn't make it a net negative investment.
Solar roadways doesn't magically become a viable idea because we have run out of space and its the only option.

 

Offline HackedFridgeMagnet

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #68 on: February 14, 2016, 10:58:23 pm »
Still... what if roads end up to be the only place left to place additional solar panels?
There is so much energy incident on earth via the sun that this wont happen.

Surely they will integrate them into residential roofing in the medium term, not just put them on top and you will never need a solar road.

It's not that you cant do it, it's just that it clearly isn't the best solution, now or in the future.

Picture of suburbs of Sydney. Plenty of unused roof space here.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #69 on: February 14, 2016, 11:44:37 pm »
Me thinks there is a construction mafia in collusion with politicians and some greasing going on to get these ludicrous projects on the taxpayer dollar.  :palm:
Precisely. This is a bad joke of a compulsory crowdfunding project paid by the taxpayers... :)

The idea may have taken off in France due to the events in Fukushima. France has a very large nuclear installed capacity and the public opinion may naturally be open to alternative ideas, thus easing approval.

I've yet to see any data at all on the South Korean system, or even a capacity figure.
With the current tensions in the region, I don't expect you will see public data anytime soon.

The one thing Dave doesn't address but is very likely the reason why solar roadways actually DO make sense: SPACE.

Because the ridiculous number of practical downsides of using them as a road surface completely trumps the fact that it might make sense in theory.
You shouldn't invest in something that just makes sense in theory, if the practical downsides are already known, and demonstrably will not get better with time.
Still... what if roads end up to be the only place left to place additional solar panels?
I can see this being a tougher issue with smaller countries such as Holland, Japan, etc. which will always have to balance accounts with energy imports. That does not make roadways practical in their current shape, but certainly lowers the minimum compromise level.
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Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #70 on: February 15, 2016, 12:48:37 am »
Still... what if roads end up to be the only place left to place additional solar panels?

Another theoretic what-if question.
I'd be staggered that if all rooftops and suitable public land, and roads and parking lots covered etc didn't cater for all our solar supply needs.
There are just so many other much much much better options than driving on solar panels, it the absolute last desperate resort, and IMO not even worthy of a "what if" discussion.
Also @HackedFridgeMagnet: As I wrote before, space is not available in all places. When I visited New Zealand with a co-worker from Australia he and the NZ people told me you could drive 20 minutes outside the city and walk in the woods for days without meeting a single person. Especially in In the north-west part of Europe that is just impossible. It is difficult to wrap your head around these differences in population density and what effect they have on available space for things like large scale solar farms. For example: the NL is the second largest exporter of agricultural products in the world. This means that solar panels will have to earn a whole lot of money in order to use precious land for solar panels instead of growing some kind of plants. Land just isn't free.

Ofcourse it is very likely heavy trucks will wreck solar roads but on many multi lane roads the trucks are only allowed in one or two lanes. In Germany for example you can clearly see the right most lane(s) is(are) constructed differently for that reason.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline lem_ix

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #71 on: February 15, 2016, 01:39:05 am »
Very disturbing, but just what people want. Expect a facebook version of these solar tiles at some point, you can read your wall while driving !  |O ( probs will have to take power off the grid to run it tho ... )|O

Meanwhile real progress is made on passion and sweat of engineers.  :-/O

 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #72 on: February 15, 2016, 02:14:08 am »
There are many kilometres of dykes in the Netherlands much of which has a south facing side which could be covered in solar panels instead of roads.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #73 on: February 15, 2016, 02:40:07 am »
There are many kilometres of dykes in the Netherlands much of which has a south facing side which could be covered in solar panels instead of roads.

And as a bonus they do not need to be walk on proof, just able to withstand a Category 9 storm that regularly trundles in from the Atlantic. That is probably easier than making one that will withstand a truck.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2016, 03:10:10 am »
There are many kilometres of dykes in the Netherlands much of which has a south facing side which could be covered in solar panels instead of roads.
And as a bonus they do not need to be walk on proof, just able to withstand a Category 9 storm that regularly trundles in from the Atlantic. That is probably easier than making one that will withstand a truck.
Note that most dykes are inside the country because -roughly speaking- the west part of the NL is basically a swamp below sea level and canals to transport the water out are sandwiched between two dykes. The idea isn't bad but there are a few issues:
- The 'not in my back yard' principle applies so people will complain their view gets ruined
- I'm not sure what the building restrictions are on dykes. They may look like heaps of dirt overgrown by grass but dykes are probably the most critical piece of infrastructure in the NL.
- Dykes may be inhabited by plants and or animals which may not be disturbed and many are also used to keep cattle.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 03:12:40 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #75 on: February 15, 2016, 04:00:54 am »
It seems like it would be better to place the panels over the roads. Motorists would be provided shade and protection from rain, and the panels would be able to function even during the largest traffic jam. The best part of it is that existing solar panel materials would be usable because they wouldn't need to withstand such heavy loads nor would they need LEDs to show lines in the road.

People would complain they can't see the sky.
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #76 on: February 15, 2016, 05:14:33 am »
The simple cost comparison does not work that way: part of the lower energy output is due to lower peak power per area for the solar roadway. So you can't just multiply the two factors. Still I don't see a chance for getting a competitive price. 

Using the roads only makes sense if there is absolutely no alternative other open areas. Using the road is rather expensive and likely short lifetime. A well scratched panel might loose about half the efficiency. Not having the angel for highest energy output could actually be an advantage, as power output is a little less peaked around noon. So the horizontal orientation is not that bad. In Germany they already start using roofs angled to east or west and consider higher payments for them.

There are many alternative places, that are better suited, like roofs and walls of building. A big candidate would be a system that replaces roofing material, not just put on top of a roof. I also think the Korean solution is more realistic if you really need the road area. Especially parking lots are better in the shade in sunny regions. 

However I don't think area will get that scare: There is plenty of dessert areas and land, where agriculture is limited by the amount of rain and not by the amount of sunlight. So in dry regions, using something like half the area for solar might even help to make the residual land more useful for agriculture.

In less sunny regions wind power is likely more cost efficient anyway.
 

Offline bitslice

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #77 on: February 15, 2016, 06:01:51 am »
Dave, is there any chance you could drop the word "bullshit" from your videos on this topic?

Whenever the topic comes up on other forums the gushing plebs post the same solar roadways promotional material, but when an Engineer comes along to post one of your videos to refute it, he then gets banned because swearing isn't allowed on a lot of forums (yep, BS is considered swearing in the UK, sorry).

Like I couldn't even link this thread because again it would contain the same word :/

I know you don't like changing your stuff to suit other people, but until other Engineers step up there isn't a lot of informed videos on the topic and you are someone what of a torch bearer for this issue.

Thanks






 

Offline Razor512

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #78 on: February 15, 2016, 06:34:27 am »
It seems like it would be better to place the panels over the roads. Motorists would be provided shade and protection from rain, and the panels would be able to function even during the largest traffic jam. The best part of it is that existing solar panel materials would be usable because they wouldn't need to withstand such heavy loads nor would they need LEDs to show lines in the road.

People would complain they can't see the sky.

In such a case, they can make dome lik structures which cover the road and have parallel likes of clear class (to see the sky), and solar panels  (with street lights mounted under them (thus lighting at night). the sides can be completely open for airflow.

For parking lots, it can also be useful; no more having a insanely hot car when you park it for a few minutes on a summer day.

 

Offline edy

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #79 on: February 15, 2016, 08:39:24 am »
Dave, is there any chance you could drop the word "bullshit" from your videos on this topic?

I vote for using the word "Bollocks".  :-DD

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bollocks



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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #80 on: February 15, 2016, 09:40:57 am »
Thanks to a viewer, French subtitles are now available on the video. Hopefully they are accurate.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #81 on: February 15, 2016, 11:04:36 am »
It seems like it would be better to place the panels over the roads. Motorists would be provided shade and protection from rain, and the panels would be able to function even during the largest traffic jam. The best part of it is that existing solar panel materials would be usable because they wouldn't need to withstand such heavy loads nor would they need LEDs to show lines in the road.
This makes a lot of sense but the problem is that it will be harder to move/extend the road later on and many people are afraid to drive in a tunnel.
The one thing Dave doesn't address but is very likely the reason why solar roadways actually DO make sense: SPACE. A road is an area of land nobody cares about if it is fitted with solar panels. If you drive through the north of Germany you'll see quite large fields perfectly suitable for keeping animals or growing food which are filled with solar panels so valuable land is wasted. The picture above shows the problem with putting solar panels on buildings: Aesthetics. IMHO you also can't compare prices from established technology versus new technology and say the established technology has already won. I you do that there will never be any progress.

And even if the French solar road fails the government has sponsored some jobs and hopefully gained a bunch of engineers with hands-on experience with solar panel technology.
We already have some solar panels by a road in Australia, see attachment below. Its not great and just hiding a rubbish dump site, and the glare off the panels is rather dangerous at times. You can explore some of it via google maps:
https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-37.7676041,144.8048665,3a,75y,241.69h,79.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRgGjvF4twpCQ4qDtafLY5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Still... what if roads end up to be the only place left to place additional solar panels?

Another theoretic what-if question.
I'd be staggered that if all rooftops and suitable public land, and roads and parking lots covered etc didn't cater for all our solar supply needs.
There are just so many other much much much better options than driving on solar panels, it the absolute last desperate resort, and IMO not even worthy of a "what if" discussion.
But go ahead, argue away, good luck trying to come up with solutions for driving on solar panels that that low enough maintenance that doesn't make it a net negative investment.
Solar roadways doesn't magically become a viable idea because we have run out of space and its the only option.
To replace all other forms of energy input a typical person needs hundreds of square meters of solar panels, so its not a viable option for everyone unless we start making huge solar farms in the desert. Australia is almost the ideal case for solar with the low population density and favourable insolation, but the scale of the system needed is extreme. Covering every road in Australia with solar panels would meet around half the populations energy demand (not including industrial!).
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #82 on: February 15, 2016, 11:49:54 am »
Edit. Given his recent flirtation (ill advised IMHO) with the word bullshit in various contexts he may only be interested in pandering to the undiscriminating stuck on followers.

So you prefer I pander to the politically correct crowd? (of course you do)

But looking at this critically, I did actually bust the French Wattway system, so it's probably more a BUSTED video than a ranting BULLSHIT video.
I tend to use the term about 50/50 on my debunking videos.
Perhaps I'll change the title. But then of course everyone will think I'm pandering to the PC crowd  ::)
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #83 on: February 15, 2016, 12:00:17 pm »
 Perfect thing to post here and the video of a 10 second quote has been removed from YouTube for copyright violation. Grrrr. That is total bullshit.
Oh well, any Blues Brothers fans will know what I wanted to post.

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #84 on: February 15, 2016, 12:06:34 pm »
Dave, is there any chance you could drop the word "bullshit" from your videos on this topic?
Whenever the topic comes up on other forums the gushing plebs post the same solar roadways promotional material, but when an Engineer comes along to post one of your videos to refute it, he then gets banned because swearing isn't allowed on a lot of forums (yep, BS is considered swearing in the UK, sorry).
Like I couldn't even link this thread because again it would contain the same word :/

Use bit.ly or something.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #85 on: February 15, 2016, 12:35:21 pm »
I may even be wrong in suggesting you should not swear.

You could be very wrong indeed.
Who knows, my "swearing" might actually get the attention of more people because it might elicit a different emotional response in them that gets them more fired up about the issue.

Quote
You can decide what you should do.

You're damn right I will, always have.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #86 on: February 15, 2016, 12:41:15 pm »
Whether you pander to anyone, or not, is not something I seek to change. I remain puzzled why you continue to refer to my criticism as PC. Perhaps it is because you see yourself as not politically correct and I am criticising you therefore it follows I must be PC.

I generally dislike people who tell other people (especially me) how they should talk and what words they should use. That gets an automatic "screw you" response and an instant PC label.
I don't believe for one second that your intent here is purely constructive as you describe, and that you don't want me to stop swearing because you don't personally like it, at least in some small way.
I'm done.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #87 on: February 15, 2016, 01:51:41 pm »
Well that's something we agree on. After watching your videos for all these years I hope you don't doubt I know it.

I know you know that  ;D
BTW, I have nothing wrong with you holding your viewpoint of course, in fact I support your right to hold that view and express your opinion on it. That's cool, just don't expect me to agree with it  ;D
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #88 on: February 15, 2016, 10:09:36 pm »
Also @HackedFridgeMagnet: As I wrote before, space is not available in all places. When I visited New Zealand with a co-worker from Australia he and the NZ people told me you could drive 20 minutes outside the city and walk in the woods for days without meeting a single person. Especially in In the north-west part of Europe that is just impossible. It is difficult to wrap your head around these differences in population density and what effect they have on available space for things like large scale solar farms. For example: the NL is the second largest exporter of agricultural products in the world. This means that solar panels will have to earn a whole lot of money in order to use precious land for solar panels instead of growing some kind of plants. Land just isn't free.

Ofcourse it is very likely heavy trucks will wreck solar roads but on many multi lane roads the trucks are only allowed in one or two lanes. In Germany for example you can clearly see the right most lane(s) is(are) constructed differently for that reason.
You can put it between the rails of the railways. Nothing is going to touch them, and they are usually not shaded. The concept is the same, awful efficiency, but slightly better, because you dont need protective layers. It is still a bad idea, if you ask me.
There is approximately (wiki) 10 million m2 space between the rails in the Netherlands. The solar roadway doesnt need to be full speed bullshit. There is plenty of space everywhere to put solar panels, people should just use their brains.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #89 on: February 15, 2016, 10:27:05 pm »
Also @HackedFridgeMagnet: As I wrote before, space is not available in all places. When I visited New Zealand with a co-worker from Australia he and the NZ people told me you could drive 20 minutes outside the city and walk in the woods for days without meeting a single person. Especially in In the north-west part of Europe that is just impossible. It is difficult to wrap your head around these differences in population density and what effect they have on available space for things like large scale solar farms. For example: the NL is the second largest exporter of agricultural products in the world. This means that solar panels will have to earn a whole lot of money in order to use precious land for solar panels instead of growing some kind of plants. Land just isn't free.

No it's not, but it's strange how the Netherlands managed to cross the 1GW installed solar capacity barrier in 2014, one of the top 20 countries or so. They seems to be doing ok so far.

Quote
The solar roadway doesnt need to be full speed bullshit. There is plenty of space everywhere to put solar panels, people should just use their brains.

Yes, they can be beside, over, above, the roadways or cycles paths or walkways, all of which are infinitely more reliable solutions with much better payback.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #90 on: February 15, 2016, 10:44:13 pm »
Also @HackedFridgeMagnet: As I wrote before, space is not available in all places. When I visited New Zealand with a co-worker from Australia he and the NZ people told me you could drive 20 minutes outside the city and walk in the woods for days without meeting a single person. Especially in In the north-west part of Europe that is just impossible. It is difficult to wrap your head around these differences in population density and what effect they have on available space for things like large scale solar farms. For example: the NL is the second largest exporter of agricultural products in the world. This means that solar panels will have to earn a whole lot of money in order to use precious land for solar panels instead of growing some kind of plants. Land just isn't free.
No it's not, but it's strange how the Netherlands managed to cross the 1GW installed solar capacity barrier in 2014, one of the top 20 countries or so. They seems to be doing ok so far.
Roof space is filling up quickly! The problem is most people have small roofs. I might be able to cram a 3kW array of solar panels on my roof where your roof seems to allow for double that amount easely.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #91 on: February 16, 2016, 12:06:48 am »
Also @HackedFridgeMagnet: As I wrote before, space is not available in all places. When I visited New Zealand with a co-worker from Australia he and the NZ people told me you could drive 20 minutes outside the city and walk in the woods for days without meeting a single person. Especially in In the north-west part of Europe that is just impossible. It is difficult to wrap your head around these differences in population density and what effect they have on available space for things like large scale solar farms. For example: the NL is the second largest exporter of agricultural products in the world. This means that solar panels will have to earn a whole lot of money in order to use precious land for solar panels instead of growing some kind of plants. Land just isn't free.

Ofcourse it is very likely heavy trucks will wreck solar roads but on many multi lane roads the trucks are only allowed in one or two lanes. In Germany for example you can clearly see the right most lane(s) is(are) constructed differently for that reason.
You can put it between the rails of the railways. Nothing is going to touch them, and they are usually not shaded. The concept is the same, awful efficiency, but slightly better, because you dont need protective layers. It is still a bad idea, if you ask me.
There is approximately (wiki) 10 million m2 space between the rails in the Netherlands. The solar roadway doesnt need to be full speed bullshit. There is plenty of space everywhere to put solar panels, people should just use their brains.

 Other than the strip of grease down the middle of the rails on every railroad track I've even seen. It is otherwise fairly well protected, bot the panels will quickly get very dirty.

 

Offline zapta

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #92 on: February 16, 2016, 01:29:51 am »
Dave, you should subtitle (in french) your video and send it to our french ministers...

If someone wants to provide the French subtitle file then I can upload it.
they'll understand it without subtitles. Days that the french only spoke french are long gone.

Yes, many people in France are speaking other languages these days. I am not sure if it's English though. :)
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #93 on: February 16, 2016, 05:40:16 am »
Other than the strip of grease down the middle of the rails on every railroad track I've even seen. It is otherwise fairly well protected, bot the panels will quickly get very dirty.

You can have a special panel-cleaning train that goes around once a week cleaning/polishing them.

That's the great thing about railroads; all the dimensions are very exact so you can do stuff like that.

(Just make sure there's no chains hanging down underneath the freight trains....it would only take one bad train to do hundreds of millions of $$$ in damage)

« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 05:45:44 am by Fungus »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #94 on: February 16, 2016, 06:06:40 am »
Also @HackedFridgeMagnet: As I wrote before, space is not available in all places. When I visited New Zealand with a co-worker from Australia he and the NZ people told me you could drive 20 minutes outside the city and walk in the woods for days without meeting a single person. Especially in In the north-west part of Europe that is just impossible. It is difficult to wrap your head around these differences in population density and what effect they have on available space for things like large scale solar farms. For example: the NL is the second largest exporter of agricultural products in the world. This means that solar panels will have to earn a whole lot of money in order to use precious land for solar panels instead of growing some kind of plants. Land just isn't free.

Ofcourse it is very likely heavy trucks will wreck solar roads but on many multi lane roads the trucks are only allowed in one or two lanes. In Germany for example you can clearly see the right most lane(s) is(are) constructed differently for that reason.
You can put it between the rails of the railways. Nothing is going to touch them, and they are usually not shaded. The concept is the same, awful efficiency, but slightly better, because you dont need protective layers. It is still a bad idea, if you ask me.
There is approximately (wiki) 10 million m2 space between the rails in the Netherlands. The solar roadway doesnt need to be full speed bullshit. There is plenty of space everywhere to put solar panels, people should just use their brains.
Other than the strip of grease down the middle of the rails on every railroad track I've even seen. It is otherwise fairly well protected, bot the panels will quickly get very dirty.
AFAIK there are no trains in the NL left which let everything from the toilet drop on the rails. This was a bit awkward in the old days. When you flushed the toilets a hatch at the bottom of the toilet bowl would open and you could see the tracks! Ofcourse you wheren't supposed to use the toilet at stations but sometimes the call of nature was too strong! Still a defect from a train could do a lot of damage. I'm not sure how this works with maintenance. Every now and then the tracks need to be lifted to add extra ballast; remember the NL is a swamp so everything sinks into the ground. The solar panels would make the maintenance work impossible.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #95 on: February 16, 2016, 06:21:43 am »
Also @HackedFridgeMagnet: As I wrote before, space is not available in all places. When I visited New Zealand with a co-worker from Australia he and the NZ people told me you could drive 20 minutes outside the city and walk in the woods for days without meeting a single person. Especially in In the north-west part of Europe that is just impossible. It is difficult to wrap your head around these differences in population density and what effect they have on available space for things like large scale solar farms. For example: the NL is the second largest exporter of agricultural products in the world. This means that solar panels will have to earn a whole lot of money in order to use precious land for solar panels instead of growing some kind of plants. Land just isn't free.

Ofcourse it is very likely heavy trucks will wreck solar roads but on many multi lane roads the trucks are only allowed in one or two lanes. In Germany for example you can clearly see the right most lane(s) is(are) constructed differently for that reason.
You can put it between the rails of the railways. Nothing is going to touch them, and they are usually not shaded. The concept is the same, awful efficiency, but slightly better, because you dont need protective layers. It is still a bad idea, if you ask me.
There is approximately (wiki) 10 million m2 space between the rails in the Netherlands. The solar roadway doesnt need to be full speed bullshit. There is plenty of space everywhere to put solar panels, people should just use their brains.
Other than the strip of grease down the middle of the rails on every railroad track I've even seen. It is otherwise fairly well protected, bot the panels will quickly get very dirty.
AFAIK there are no trains in the NL left which let everything from the toilet drop on the rails. This was a bit awkward in the old days. When you flushed the toilets a hatch at the bottom of the toilet bowl would open and you could see the tracks! Ofcourse you wheren't supposed to use the toilet at stations but sometimes the call of nature was too strong! Still a defect from a train could do a lot of damage. I'm not sure how this works with maintenance. Every now and then the tracks need to be lifted to add extra ballast; remember the NL is a swamp so everything sinks into the ground. The solar panels would make the maintenance work impossible.
It's not even the no longer used direct dump toilets - the grease and grime from the traction motor gears and the wheel bearings of the cars leaves a black strip down the middle of the rails. And yes, there's no way anything solid between the rails would eb compatible with the maintenance operations of cleaning the ballast, replacing ties, or just tamping the ballast. Every bit if not more impractical than roads.
 

Offline Falkra

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #96 on: February 16, 2016, 06:34:46 am »
I'm french, and in my opinion this is indeed... what you said about it in the video. :)
This is another very expensive project, and...   :palm:
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 06:36:41 am by Falkra »
 

Offline edy

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #97 on: February 16, 2016, 02:24:29 pm »
Now that we are in the age of EMOTICONs, I vote to add the EMOJI to our Message Post editor. Combined together with the we don't have to even spell it out....  :-DD


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Offline zapta

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #98 on: February 16, 2016, 05:24:17 pm »
According to the French government, it's too late now to avoid 'climate chaos'

http://www.mrctv.org/videos/french-foreign-minister-says-we-have-500-days-avoid-climate-chaos
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline nwvlab

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #99 on: February 16, 2016, 06:49:28 pm »
According to the French government, it's too late now to avoid 'climate chaos'

http://www.mrctv.org/videos/french-foreign-minister-says-we-have-500-days-avoid-climate-chaos

Ahh, now I get why they are pursuing the solar-roadway option, instead of a serious one: the climate is already screwed up, so who cares if we are actually doing more damage?

Offline bitslice

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #100 on: February 17, 2016, 06:16:51 am »
Who knows, my "swearing" might actually get the attention of more people because it might elicit a different emotional response in them that gets them more fired up about the issue.

Nope, people don't work that way, in England if you swear they instantly regard you as a bit thick, in that if you can't communicate in a controlled manner then you probably can't think logically either. Whatever you say is just dismissed.
Although people then quote Stephen Fry as a counter to this, the reaction is pretty universal.
(and Fry is a hypocritical poser because he never swears on camera himself)

If swearing actually created a positive emotional response then Hitler would have used it.

It's not a matter of Political Correctness, it's a matter of child friendly forums.
It's a default position for moderation - if the post content is not suitable for a child, then it's probably not suitable for an adult either.


Use bit.ly or something.

bit.ly is banned because it could link to a malicious page, and the moderator will still check out the video regardless. I wouldn't click on a bit.ly regardless.



Personally if I want something I'm passionate about to reach a wide audience then I'd consider how to market that idea. If my presentation style gets me banned from every single forum outside of this one, then I'd just be preaching to the choir. That's great for my ego, but a fail by any other criteria.

Maybe that's why some English people use sarcasm, they don't wish to be rude, but they do want to imply that the other person is an idiot.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 06:29:19 am by bitslice »
 

Offline cdev

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #101 on: February 17, 2016, 06:45:58 am »
This is likely a way for the ruling party to channel taxpayer money to their supporters. So the scheme is likely targeting taxpayers, by means of government spending, its a control fraud.

just be glad they are not starting and fighting endless wars, thats the traditional way to make lots of money fast without adult supervision.

Quote
"Impressed these fraudsters can still get money for this crap idea.  Is this the new American dream?   Figure out some BS idea that has a hint of reality and milk investors for everything you can with fancy marketing?"

"What happens to these jokers went the house of cards finally falls?  Do they walk on to the next BS idea and repeat?"

Yes, thats exactly what they do.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #102 on: February 17, 2016, 06:57:50 am »
Most railways in Europe are electrified, with support towers every few meters to hold the busbar and the power supply cable, along with trackside control cabling. It would be easy to place an extra tower as support, and a tie bar on top attached to the standard one, to hold a lattice frame structure that is positioned well above the electric rail and supply, which you can use to hold solar panels on at an appropriate angle. You already have the power cabling there for the train, so all that is needed is an appropriate inverter to convert the panel output to something the train uses voltage wise. If the train uses AC then you can feed back into the grid with no extra equipment, or if DC then you are using solar power to operate trains instead, or you need to upgrade the power supply for the rails so they can act either as power supplies or as inverters to the grid, depending on the voltage on the rail. Would also allow regenerative braking to return power to the grid instead of being dissipated in voltage regulator modules if the train dumping energy is the only one on the particular segment.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #103 on: February 17, 2016, 08:15:18 am »
The wind loading of the large solar panels in close proximity to all that high voltage and rapidly moving trains- not good unless I am not seeing something important. Sure, if the structures were already really strong, maybe.. but...

Earthquake prone areas, definitely not a good idea....


Quote
Most railways in Europe are electrified, with support towers every few meters to hold the busbar and the power supply cable, along with trackside control cabling. It would be easy to place an extra tower as support, and a tie bar on top attached to the standard one, to hold a lattice frame structure that is positioned well above the electric rail and supply, which you can use to hold solar panels on at an appropriate angle. You already have the power cabling there for the train, so all that is needed is an appropriate inverter to convert the panel output to something the train uses voltage wise. If the train uses AC then you can feed back into the grid with no extra equipment, or if DC then you are using solar power to operate trains instead, or you need to upgrade the power supply for the rails so they can act either as power supplies or as inverters to the grid, depending on the voltage on the rail. Would also allow regenerative braking to return power to the grid instead of being dissipated in voltage regulator modules if the train dumping energy is the only one on the particular segment.

"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #104 on: February 17, 2016, 09:27:20 am »
uote author=bitslice link=topic=62965.msg870980#msg870980 date=1455650211]
Nope, people don't work that way
[/quote]

And your experience in the field of psychology is?
Got data to prove that using the word "bullshit" in a debunking video has an actual large detrimental effect?

Quote
It's not a matter of Political Correctness, it's a matter of child friendly forums.

Wrong, it's a matter of me doing and saying what I want on my channel.

Quote
bit.ly is banned because it could link to a malicious page, and the moderator will still check out the video regardless. I wouldn't click on a bit.ly regardless.

Sounds like a shitty forum.

Quote
Personally if I want something I'm passionate about to reach a wide audience then I'd consider how to market that idea. If my presentation style gets me banned from every single forum outside of this one, then I'd just be preaching to the choir. That's great for my ego, but a fail by any other criteria.

Exaggerating a tad you think?
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #105 on: February 17, 2016, 10:07:22 am »
Quote
"Impressed these fraudsters can still get money for this crap idea.  Is this the new American dream?   Figure out some BS idea that has a hint of reality and milk investors for everything you can with fancy marketing?"

"What happens to these jokers went the house of cards finally falls?  Do they walk on to the next BS idea and repeat?"

Yes, thats exactly what they do.

Precisely!  Over and over and over and over again!  What a sham!

(cough) Batteroo...
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #106 on: February 17, 2016, 10:36:22 am »
Got data to prove that using the word "bullshit" in a debunking video has an actual large detrimental effect?
...
Wrong, it's a matter of me doing and saying what I want on my channel.

While I agree with you, Dave that it is your channel and you can run it how you see fit and you may say whatever you want...
AND I will try to defend your right to say whatever you want no matter what, whenever and wherever I can...
(I firmly believe that is a very important thing for everyone, everywhere, to do...)

It's not a matter of Political Correctness, it's a matter of child friendly forums.

I must also agree with bitslice on this one...

I lament the fact that while, for example, my nephews are showing real, budding, interest in electronics and I would love to introduce them to your channel because it has all sorts of meaningful, insightful and educational content, it is going to unfortunately be many years yet before I can in good conscience point them to your channel due mainly, simply, to your profanity.  When they get older, sure, but for now it's going to have to be things like the Periodic Table of Videos with Professor Poliakoff.  He gets all his points across with exceptionally good diction and masterful exploitation of the english language (as do many others on YouTube) without ever needing to resort to profanity and vulgarity to attempt to make a point.

It's just simply not going to fly with their family (who actually monitors their internet consumption as I believe any good parent should) or myself personally, and for that I am sorry and regretful but there's really nothing I can do to change that situation to help introduce inquiring young minds to that which we've known for so long.  (I really wish I could find all my old 1970-80s  Forrest M. Mims III books from many years ago to give them...)

I realize sensibilities are a tad different "down undah'" where you are but you must also always realize you have a global audience and anything you can do to help the rest of us introduce your stuff to others as widely as possible really benefits us all...

Just my two cents, take it as you may...

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #107 on: February 17, 2016, 10:42:38 am »
I must also agree with bitslice on this one...
I lament the fact that while, for example, my nephews are showing real, budding, interest in electronics and I would love to introduce them to your channel because it has all sorts of meaningful, insightful and educational content, it is going to unfortunately be many years yet before I can in good conscience point them to your channel due mainly, simply, to your profanity. 

There are countless other channels out there.
I can't be all things to all people, nor do I try to be, I'm simply, well, me. There are countless kids who watch my channel, and countless parents who let them, so I can't be doing that bad.
Bullshit is pretty much the worst profanity I come out with, and it's not that often.
 

Offline lowimpedance

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #108 on: February 17, 2016, 11:06:56 am »
"Bullshit" ... is nothing compared to what gets used by 'kids' out in public/ school etc these days . Take a ride on public transport and just listen to a group of younger ones talking.
The whole issue over this one 'profane' example smells a bit like .....well like an amorphous bovine desposit.
The odd multimeter or 2 or 3 or 4...or........can't remember !.
 

Offline bitslice

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #109 on: February 17, 2016, 11:12:53 am »
And your experience in the field of psychology is?
Swearing is used as a coping mechanism, but the listener experiences stress as a result. Every culture has linguistic taboos and every culture reacts negatively to such transgressions.
 
Quote
Got data to prove that using the word "bullshit" in a debunking video has an actual large detrimental effect?

In marketing terms, yes - nobody apart from a handful of forums have linked to the video, compare that to the mass coverage of "Solar Freakin' Roadways". One commented that the presentation was like being waterboarded.
I could have got it linked on a much bigger forum than this but I got banned for trying. I dare say other people have taken one look at the clip picture and gone elsewhere for data.

Empirically, as an English person, swearing is right up there with our class system as a means to separate people who all look the same. I gather Americans derive the same taboos from their more religious culture.
Of course this is hypocritical because we swear all the time, but hypocrisy is the nature of man.

Quote
Wrong, it's a matter of me doing and saying what I want on my channel.

I was merely responding to your assertion that not swearing would be pandering to the politically correct crowd, when that's not the reason people are suggesting there are issues with this video.
I've seen SJW's, anti-fascist thugs and politicly correct Neo-feminists on Youtube, and they swear all the time.

Yes it's your channel, but who are you talking to here - we already agree with you.
But when it comes to debating this in a wider world you've unfortunately lumbered the video with baggage that makes it toxic to lay people.

Really this is maybe you helping us to help you?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 11:17:54 am by bitslice »
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #110 on: February 17, 2016, 11:14:49 am »
"Bullshit" ... is nothing compared to what gets used by 'kids' out in public/ school etc these days . Take a ride on public transport and just listen to a group of younger ones talking.

Oh, I agree completely, but that doesn't mean we encourage it.. :)

I'm basically just saying think twice before you speak or put "No Bullshit Packaging" on your multimeter box.

Do I think kids don't know these words?  Of course not!

Do we really need to stoop to elementary-kid-schoolyard or barnyard-language-level to get our point across? 

I most certainly hope not.  :)  I, for one, find that neither liberating or refreshing.
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #111 on: February 17, 2016, 11:20:24 am »
 PG rated moves have worse language than what Dave comes out with. One F bomb in nearly 900 (or is it more than 900 if you count the second channel?) videos is a pretty darn good ratio of NOT swearing.

 It's all well and good to try to protect kids from exposure to such language, but unless you follow them everywhere and have some sort of automatic filtering headphones on them at all times, it's just not possible. If the child in question is 6 or older, guarantee he's heard "bullshit" many many times. I'll never forget, my first day of kindergarten, I wasn't even 5 yet, sitting at the dinner table with my Mom and Dad, and I had a question I just had to ask my Dad. I had heard the older kids on the school bus use a word that I didn't know. So my innocent little self blurts out "Dad, what does 'fuck' mean?" My Mom tried to look shocked while not laughing, my Dad was doing a poor job of trying to remain serious and not laugh out loud. Once you have kids, you realize just how hard this is, when your kid does something you don't really want to encourage yet it's insanely hilarious to an adult.

 Really, 'bullshit' is about a mild as it gets. Perhaps "male bovine excrement" is politically correct, but it's not nearly as good a descriptor for stupid ideas.

 

Offline rich

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #112 on: February 17, 2016, 12:04:38 pm »
Empirically, as an English person, swearing is right up there with our class system as a means to separate people who all look the same.

So you won't be invoking the class system by calling anyone plebs then?

Whenever the topic comes up on other forums the gushing plebs post the same solar roadways promotional

How is the view from your ivory tower now?

Language is all about context. The context of Dave's channel is pretty clear edutainment hosted by that crazy aussie bloke, "bullshit" is part of that vocabulary. If you go posting it to other channels, then that's your editorial decision not Dave's. If your mission is to affect that audience and you don't think Dave's material is suitable, then go create your own. It doesn't look like Dave is losing sleep over not reaching them.

On a uk offensiveness scale, I doubt the BBC would use "bullshit" pre-watershed whereas they do occasionally use the word "crap" on BBC Radio 4 during the day and get away with it. So, yes, bullshit raises the stakes from "crap" and a tamer version would be "bull" but as I said before, I think it works fine with Dave's on-screen persona.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #113 on: February 17, 2016, 12:18:24 pm »
In my experience some people get really upset when you swear so I try to feel the water before using too strong wording. In many cases swearing doesn't help to get a point across either. IMHO many people unfamiliar with EEVblog and Dave's style will see the video as an amusing rant from some Aussie bloke instead of a serious attempt to explain the shortcomings of the solar road idea. But maybe it isn't more than a rant because there are several assumptions made in the video as well. For example the life expectancy being low and maintenance costs being excessive; without (f)actual numbers it is just the word from one against the other :box: All opinion remember.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline HackedFridgeMagnet

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #114 on: February 17, 2016, 02:42:30 pm »
I'm with Dave on this, don't pander to how people say you should be, just be yourself.

Swearing is not really bad, but being mean and horrible to people and things is bad.
Some people get the two mixed up.

not that Dave is anything like Tony just trying to make a point that being yourself is the best way to go.
I remember Tony Abott was so over coached and over prepared when he confronted media he often looked like a complete dill.
He was concentrating on the script and not on what was really happening and so did weird things like: eating a raw brown onion with the skin; and becoming mute on camera for about 30 seconds while attempting to answer a question. 
Actually come to think of it, he did weird things off script too, like knighting the Queens husband.


« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 02:45:45 pm by HackedFridgeMagnet »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #115 on: February 17, 2016, 02:51:50 pm »
PG rated moves have worse language than what Dave comes out with. One F bomb in nearly 900 (or is it more than 900 if you count the second channel?) videos is a pretty darn good ratio of NOT swearing.

Exactly.
The Martian for example, contains one or two F bombs, a word I have never used on my channel. The book has more.
That movie and book is something I would want every kid on the planet to watch and read, and it's worse than my videos.
 

Offline bitslice

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #116 on: February 17, 2016, 03:01:33 pm »
So you won't be invoking the class system by calling anyone plebs then?

I like the word "plebs"  :P
the view is splendid old bean

Quote
If you go posting it to other channels, then that's your editorial decision not Dave's
Yes of course, I'm just pointing out a moderation issue on other forums that he may not have been aware of.
If he's happy with just us lot then that's fine too.

 
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #117 on: February 17, 2016, 03:01:54 pm »
And your experience in the field of psychology is?
Swearing is used as a coping mechanism, but the listener experiences stress as a result. Every culture has linguistic taboos and every culture reacts negatively to such transgressions.

So, zero experience, got it.

Quote
Got data to prove that using the word "bullshit" in a debunking video has an actual large detrimental effect?
In marketing terms, yes - nobody apart from a handful of forums have linked to the video, compare that to the mass coverage of "Solar Freakin' Roadways". One commented that the presentation was like being waterboarded.
I could have got it linked on a much bigger forum than this but I got banned for trying. I dare say other people have taken one look at the clip picture and gone elsewhere for data.
[/quote]

And guess who's Solar Freaking roadways debunking videos got plastered everywhere, Thunderf00t's and mine. I'm pretty sure Thunderf00t averages more BS's per debunking video than me.
My original video "EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!" has 412k views. Thunderf00t's has about the same. Note that mine has BULLSHIT in the title, Tunderf00t's has the more PC "Solar Roadways: Busted!"
So much for your hypothesis.
Getting it linked on a forum or not amounts to a hill of beans in terms of views.

Quote
Yes it's your channel

And precisely where any argument ends.
Look, if I feel pressured into "toning down" my content or doing or saying anything other than want I naturally want to do and say, then that's it, I'd rather give it all up. Seriously.
When I hear arguments like this about my content, it actually has the opposite effect on me, if anything it discourages me from wanting to continue to produce content.
Be careful what you wish for.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 03:03:41 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline bitslice

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #118 on: February 17, 2016, 03:26:32 pm »
And precisely where any argument ends.

M'kay, I'm not making or seeking an argument with you, yet you always jump straight to being offended.

Quote
Seriously. When I hear arguments like this about my content, it actually has the opposite effect on me

I'm not making an argument about your content, I'm relating what happened.



I do not write the moderation policy of other forums or why they imagine that kids have never heard swear words before.
Nobody is picking on you personally.
If you want to argue to toss about whether people in other countries don't like swearing or not, go for it, but honestly I've made all the points I think are relevant to the topic.
If you like swearing in your videos, do more of it.
It doesn't matter to me what happens next or how you want to react.


 

Offline jancumps

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #119 on: February 17, 2016, 04:18:15 pm »
...
I could have got it linked on a much bigger forum than this but I got banned for trying.
...

What forum was that?
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #120 on: February 17, 2016, 10:15:20 pm »
Nope, people don't work that way, in England if you swear they instantly regard you as a bit thick, in that if you can't communicate in a controlled manner then you probably can't think logically either. Whatever you say is just dismissed.

Not really true.

The problem is uncontrolled swearing. If the only adjective you know is "fucking" and you use it in every sentence then yes, you're regarded as a bit thick (rightly so!)

eg. If the title of this thread was "French Wattway Solar Roadways are fucking BULLSHIT" that would be bad.

(see the difference)

But yes, the Brits are a lot more sensitive about the actual words. In the USA/Australia you could call a TV series "Bullshit!" and get away with it. Not in the UK.

It's not that they're prudes, they just know instinctively that there's a better way. eg. Basil Fawlty would have used a lot of swear words if that program had been made in a different country. In the UK he didn't, and he's a lot funnier because of it.

(now I'm showing my age - Modern day equivalents would be shows like Celebrity Juice - that guy's a master of talking about very very bad things without using bad words and in a way that makes them hilarious).

Although people then quote Stephen Fry as a counter to this, the reaction is pretty universal.
(and Fry is a hypocritical poser because he never swears on camera himself)

Being able to turn swearing on and off at will is a sign of intelligence, yes.

(Or any other part of your language center, eg. your accent, your level of vocabulary...)

« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 11:08:02 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #121 on: February 17, 2016, 10:51:59 pm »
And precisely where any argument ends.
M'kay, I'm not making or seeking an argument with you, yet you always jump straight to being offended.

Don't confuse offence with simply describing how I view things.
Also, let me clue you into a little bit more about why bloggers like myself can often be mistaken as being "offended" or being too harsh etc when responding to comments like this:
An individual may suggest something, or ask something, or criticise something or whatever, and they think it's just their one voice, no big deal, right?. Well, the blogger on the other hand, particularly successful ones that get say 75,000 views per day, every day, with goodness knows how many comments, has almost certainly seen this exact comment, argument, suggestion, criticism etc expressed (by the magic of statistics) hundreds of times. It tends to grate.

BTW, I changed the title of the video and the blog URL the other day in case you hadn't noticed. You can now link it those lame forums that ban the word. You're welcome.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 10:57:14 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #122 on: February 17, 2016, 11:01:38 pm »
But yes, they Brits are a lot more sensitive about the actual words. In the USA/Australia you could call a TV series "Bullshit!" and get away with it. Not in the UK.

I do highly recommend Penn & Teller: Bullshit!  :-+
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!
Should be required watching for all kids.

Penn is the dropper of more F bombs than any man alive I think if you follow his work. Yet everyone loves him, because, well, he's cool.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #123 on: February 17, 2016, 11:17:16 pm »
Should be required watching for all kids.

And adults.

 

Offline rrinker

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #124 on: February 18, 2016, 12:07:00 am »
 :-+ on Penn & Teller, those guys are great.
 

Offline timb

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EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #125 on: February 18, 2016, 01:17:34 am »
But yes, they Brits are a lot more sensitive about the actual words. In the USA/Australia you could call a TV series "Bullshit!" and get away with it. Not in the UK.

I do highly recommend Penn & Teller: Bullshit!  :-+
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!
Should be required watching for all kids.

Penn is the dropper of more F bombs than any man alive I think if you follow his work. Yet everyone loves him, because, well, he's cool.

For sure!

In fact, I think the episodes "Sex, Sex, Sex" (Season 1) and "The War on Porn" (Season 6) should be mandatory required viewing for 6 year olds everywhere.


...



(In reality, I do think it's appropriate viewing for *teenagers* but maybe not kids. I mean, at 13 most are already voracious consumers of porn thanks to the Internet (and puberty). Most teens also swear. A lot. I know I did! In fact, a teacher once caught me swearing and said I shouldn't do that, because swearing means you have a small vocabulary, to which I replied, "It's a fucking colloquialism, bitch.")
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #126 on: February 18, 2016, 01:56:12 am »
But yes, they Brits are a lot more sensitive about the actual words. In the USA/Australia you could call a TV series "Bullshit!" and get away with it. Not in the UK.

I do highly recommend Penn & Teller: Bullshit!  :-+
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!
Should be required watching for all kids.

Penn is the dropper of more F bombs than any man alive I think if you follow his work. Yet everyone loves him, because, well, he's cool.

For sure!

In fact, I think the episodes "Sex, Sex, Sex" (Season 1) and "The War on Porn" (Season 6) should be mandatory required viewing for 6 year olds everywhere.


Mandatory? Everywhere?  Is this the new 'I think it's useful'?
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline mikerj

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #127 on: February 18, 2016, 04:00:12 am »
Swearing is used as a coping mechanism, but the listener experiences stress as a result.

That's bullshit. ;)  Swearing can be used in many different contexts.   Hopefully no-one will judge the rest of the UK members by your over-sensitivity.
 

Offline bitslice

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #128 on: February 18, 2016, 07:23:19 am »
Swearing can be used in many different contexts.   Hopefully no-one will judge the rest of the UK members by your over-sensitivity.

That's not my "over-sensitivity", I just looked up some psychological paper on the effect of swearing and that's basically what it said. It also reduces the reaction to pain.

An under researched topic apparently.
 

Offline djacobow

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #129 on: February 18, 2016, 08:37:11 am »
Great video, and I have no problem with bullshit or even the occasional F-bomb.

I love swear words. They give an indication of emphasis in one word that you might otherwise need a paragraph to convey. Some stuff is so F-ing wrong, some people are so full of bullsh*t, that to use any other word is giving them too much credit.

And as for protecting the ears of the little ones, FFS, they're just words.

It's true, some people will not listen to a tirade with cursing. Mostly those are the same people who will avoid tirades with facts. There's no helping them.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #130 on: February 18, 2016, 08:48:45 am »
(In reality, I do think it's appropriate viewing for *teenagers* but maybe not kids. I mean, at 13 most are already voracious consumers of porn thanks to the Internet (and puberty).

Yes, I don't mean I'd show it to Sagan. But hit high school...
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #131 on: February 18, 2016, 08:57:33 am »
(In reality, I do think it's appropriate viewing for *teenagers* but maybe not kids. I mean, at 13 most are already voracious consumers of porn thanks to the Internet (and puberty).
Yes, I don't mean I'd show it to Sagan. But hit high school...
Regarding pron: when they are interested they are interested. Before puberty kids aren't interested in it anyway. An interesting test is the picture below. Small kids will see dolphins:
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #132 on: February 18, 2016, 09:23:00 am »
But when it comes to debating this in a wider world you've unfortunately lumbered the video with baggage that makes it toxic to lay people.

Because I use the word bullshit once at the end of a 15 minute minute video?
Don't think you're overreacting just a tad?
 

Offline timb

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EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #133 on: February 18, 2016, 09:28:01 am »
(In reality, I do think it's appropriate viewing for *teenagers* but maybe not kids. I mean, at 13 most are already voracious consumers of porn thanks to the Internet (and puberty).

Yes, I don't mean I'd show it to Sagan. But hit high school...

Yeah, exactly. If I had a kid, 15-16 is about when I'd show it to them (maybe a tad earlier, depending on their maturity). Not even because of the content, mind you, I'd just want to make sure they could fully comprehend it and be able to discuss it with them afterwards.

(In reality, I do think it's appropriate viewing for *teenagers* but maybe not kids. I mean, at 13 most are already voracious consumers of porn thanks to the Internet (and puberty).
Yes, I don't mean I'd show it to Sagan. But hit high school...
Regarding pron: when they are interested they are interested. Before puberty kids aren't interested in it anyway. An interesting test is the picture below. Small kids will see dolphins:


What does it mean when I instantly see tiny dolphins jumping around a naked woman being gently caressed?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 09:31:23 am by timb »
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #134 on: February 18, 2016, 09:42:38 am »
Swearing can be used in many different contexts.   Hopefully no-one will judge the rest of the UK members by your over-sensitivity.
That's not my "over-sensitivity"

Yes it is.

I just looked up some psychological paper on the effect of swearing and that's basically what it said. It also reduces the reaction to pain.

If you saw a psychology paper that said:

Quote
Swearing is used as a coping mechanism.

Then you know right there that it's bullshit. At best you could say swearing can be used as a coping mechanism.

PS: Psychology papers? 99% waffle/bullshit. Sigmund Freud, the most famous psychologist in history? Wrong about almost everything.


Quote
It (swearing) also reduces the reaction to pain.

So does singing ... or anything else that distracts the brain.

 

Offline edy

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #135 on: February 18, 2016, 10:05:51 am »
What about this product on the shelves of my local supermarket:

http://www.amazon.ca/Holy-Crap-Breakfast-Cereal-Ounce/dp/B00BOXHMG2

It may not be Bull $4!t but it is close enough. Crap better substitute? Bullcrap? How does crap fare on the profanity scale?

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Offline JohnMoosenl

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #136 on: February 18, 2016, 06:38:46 pm »
The one thing Dave doesn't address but is very likely the reason why solar roadways actually DO make sense: SPACE.

Because the ridiculous number of practical downsides of using them as a road surface completely trumps the fact that it might make sense in theory.
You shouldn't invest in something that just makes sense in theory, if the practical downsides are already known, and demonstrably will not get better with time.
Still... what if roads end up to be the only place left to place additional solar panels? This is very unlikely in Australia because there is a lot of space out there where you could build a huge solar farm but in Europe there is not much space for solar panels. And there is always the 'great but not in my back yard effect'. In the NL they already have trouble putting wind turbines several tens of kilometers off-shore because people complain their view over the sea will be affected. The same goes for solar panels mounted at their optimum angle: the space available for that is very limited in cities where it has to look pleasant as well.
Its becoming a serious nuisance on land too with these ugly wind mills.  :palm:
73, PD4KBZ
 

Offline mux

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #137 on: February 18, 2016, 09:59:04 pm »
The main reason for putting wind turbines off-shore isn't public perception, but generating potential (and consistency). You get 10-15 percentage points higher capacity factor offshore, and you can fit 8-10MW turbines there, whereas on land you're limited to 2-3MW typically (which is more expensive in operation).
 

Offline JohnMoosenl

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #138 on: February 19, 2016, 12:16:05 am »
The main reason for putting wind turbines off-shore isn't public perception, but generating potential (and consistency). You get 10-15 percentage points higher capacity factor offshore, and you can fit 8-10MW turbines there, whereas on land you're limited to 2-3MW typically (which is more expensive in operation).
Sea or land, the problem of intermittent wind stays the same. Its gonna be unreliable at best.
In the end putting them off shore means a lot more corrosion, difficulty in building (sea depth), damage due to storms and more cost in repair and maintenance (think shipping/helicopters and the need for calm seas).
73, PD4KBZ
 

Offline bitslice

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #139 on: February 19, 2016, 06:25:36 am »
Yes it is.

Whatever  ::)
this was a moderation problem, nothing to do with me - everyone but you seems to understand this.

Quote
If you saw a psychology paper that said: [...]
Then you know right there that it's bullshit.
I didn't realise you'd demand a copy of the entire paper rather than my one line summary

Quote
PS: Psychology papers? 99% waffle/bullshit. Sigmund Freud, the most famous psychologist in history? Wrong about almost everything.
M'kay

Quote
So does singing ... or anything else that distracts the brain.
Point being?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 09:37:30 am by bitslice »
 

Offline mux

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #140 on: February 20, 2016, 02:05:08 am »
The main reason for putting wind turbines off-shore isn't public perception, but generating potential (and consistency). You get 10-15 percentage points higher capacity factor offshore, and you can fit 8-10MW turbines there, whereas on land you're limited to 2-3MW typically (which is more expensive in operation).
Sea or land, the problem of intermittent wind stays the same. Its gonna be unreliable at best.
In the end putting them off shore means a lot more corrosion, difficulty in building (sea depth), damage due to storms and more cost in repair and maintenance (think shipping/helicopters and the need for calm seas).

Again, this is not actually how it goes in reality. The single dominant cost and reliability factor for putting wind turbines offshore is power distribution. Corrosion, building, damage due to storms is just not an issue. These are solved engineering problems and due to the good scaling of wind energy they're still more cost effective than onshore.

Of course capacity factor is always going to be an issue, but that's just the reality of centralized power generation. Natural gas plants have similar capacity factors in practice. This is not an issue; you solve this through other engineering means. In the end the question is: with all this engineering cost, is it cost competitive?
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #141 on: February 24, 2016, 12:29:30 am »
Don't know if it was already mentioned in this forum, but if you generate solar cell power, you can get money for free:

http://solarcoin.org

It's like Bitcoin, but instead of wasting power for Bitcoin mining rigs, it rewards you for using solar power, only, and you are still free to use the power for what you want. The idea is a positive feeback: If more people are using Solarcoin as money to buy things, or even just convert it to Bitcoin with other people buying it because they believe in the idea, it gets worth more, and the incentive to build more solar cell generators gets higher for a better world.

Interview with the founder Nick Gogerty, by singularity podcaster Nikola Danaylov:



But I guess it still wouldn't make the french solar roadway profitable, if they register it ;)
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
Electronics, hiking, retro-computing, electronic music etc.: https://www.youtube.com/c/FrankBussProgrammer
 

Online AndyC_772

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BULLSHIT
« Reply #142 on: February 25, 2016, 04:21:11 am »
I do highly recommend Penn & Teller: Bullshit!  :-+
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!
Should be required watching for all kids.

All 8 seasons on DVD, just arrived from Ebay  :-+
 

Offline wizpip

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #143 on: February 25, 2016, 06:04:42 am »
+1 for swearing. I don't think it detracts from the arguments at hand.

Tried to put a video in, but it didn't go to the right time index, doh! 'Brits' aren't sensitive to swearing. After 9pm on TV you can say whatever you want, to the surprise of many foreign guests.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 06:06:37 am by wizpip »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #144 on: February 25, 2016, 06:56:24 am »
Tried to put a video in, but it didn't go to the right time index, doh! 'Brits' aren't sensitive to swearing. After 9pm on TV you can say whatever you want, to the surprise of many foreign guests.

We also have swearing here, in certain districts of our cities, all day.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline Romain

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #145 on: March 13, 2016, 12:18:05 pm »
Dave, some innovation (in the good way?) from Australia about solar energy:


Do you think you could find some time to pay them a visit?  :D
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #146 on: October 25, 2016, 10:04:15 am »
French article:
http://www.techniques-ingenieur.fr/actualite/articles/2000-euros-route-solaire-normandie-segolene-royal-37483/

Colas Solar Road costs €2000sqm, not including road surface prep!
20 times the installed cost of a commercial solar system.

Translated:
Quote
At what price ? € 5 million. Every square meter is going to cost 1962 euros for solar panel. And after the Orne Prefecture this cost does not include asphalt and poses. So the real cost exceeds the likely € 2,000 per square meter.

20 times more expensive than standard solar

Knowing that according to the director of Wattway every square meter has a power of 110 Watts the cost of solar road Wattway (excluding mandatory coated) is € 17.8 Watt. The cost of solar PV plants is today of 0.7 to 1 € / W, one of the floating solar PV 1 € / W, the solar shadehouses 1.5 to 2 € / W and that of PV solar roofing 1.5 to 2.5 € / W. And there is not a small demonstrator of 50 square-meters as in Vendee (3200 € per square meter depending on the charge of the Department communication) but a large-scale project, over one kilometer.

The Minister said repeatedly it wants 1,000 kilometers of solar road, which will cost 5 billion euros on the basis of the project cost in the Orne. The SNA Norman company must produce 5,000 meter-square panels of Wattway 2017 to power the construction of the road Tourouvre but also for other small projects of 50 to 100-square-meter unit. There is no substantial cost reduction in wait with a volume as small production. ANS company that has been in the past and swindled into receivership is not the end of his troubles.

The astronomical cost of Wattway projects is actually the tree that hides the forest even more worrying: the economic cost reflects the energy cost of this technology. You need to consume a lot of energy to produce super-strong glue for panels not to take off when a truck suddenly brakes. It takes more waterproof panels and a structure able to resist crushing, which is also energy consuming.

An energy intensive road
For many solar experts it is possible that Ségolène Royal road is actually a negative energy route, ie using more energy to build than it will deliver during his life cut short by the passage of vehicles .

The panels placed flat and in the shade of trees and electric poles Norman will not improve the balance sheet. Dr Franck Barruel CEA employee and scientific referent Wattway project announced in January 2016 about the EROI of Wattway that "  a first estimate may be issued during the year 2016  ". Contacted by Technical engineering it a week ago about this estimate this scientist, who is the only one authorized to communicate on Wattway within the INES, has not responded.

The EROI, energy returned on energy invested, ratio of energy produced to energy consumed, is nevertheless a key parameter of truly sustainable development. How consider installing one kilometer of a road if it was not calculated seriously? The environment, it starts to do well?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 10:12:33 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline HackedFridgeMagnet

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #147 on: October 25, 2016, 10:32:55 am »
but hey, for €2000 they'll throw in the equivalent of a square metre of ashpalt.
 

Offline Miles Teg

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #148 on: October 27, 2016, 08:03:51 pm »
Recent article with a video:
http://positivr.fr/colas-routes-solaires-france-2-2/

Installation seems more serious than the US version, but... do the maths men...
If you see me running, that's already too late.
 

Offline Miles Teg

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #149 on: October 27, 2016, 08:55:17 pm »
http://www.wattwaybycolas.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Wattway-DP-GB-June2016.pdf

English version of press kit.
With some interview samples of some, i thought, serious people.
If you see me running, that's already too late.
 

Offline StuUK

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #150 on: October 27, 2016, 09:27:44 pm »
http://www.wattwaybycolas.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Wattway-DP-GB-June2016.pdf

English version of press kit.
With some interview samples of some, i thought, serious people.

I can certainly imagine the idealistic conditions they did their truck tests with. Steady straight line, constant speed, kind of like the ice road truckers going over those lakes, steady as she goes..... What about the high speed blowouts, the odd crash, something heavy/sharp falling off the back etc... Eventually after spending stupid money proving its not-viable it will fade into obscurity and they will move on....
 

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Offline void_error

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #152 on: December 01, 2016, 05:05:16 pm »
I'm wondering why didn't they go small scale first and replace a door mat with a solar panel and see it doesn't work, then ditch the solar roadway idea from the start. At least a door mat won't have trucks drive over it.
Trust me, I'm NOT an engineer.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #153 on: December 02, 2016, 07:58:34 am »
Oh gee, it's not viable, who would have thought?

http://www.pv-magazine.com/news/details/beitrag/frances-solar-road-international-solar-experts-give-their-analysis_100027057/#axzz4RNwbFzkY

From the article:
Quote
“Solar roads in France are much less efficient, and more costly, than PV on rooftops and parking structures, and in PV power plants,”
Quote
“Even if you're short of land, you'll put solar over roads, not on them,”
Those were almost exactly the first two sentences my engineer wife told me when I mentioned this to her a while ago.

But the insanity must press on:
Quote
Yet with all of these challenges and economic viability worries of the project, Ségolène Royal announced plans to build 1,000 kilometers of solar roads.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #154 on: December 02, 2016, 11:54:06 am »
Read the article.

Are we surprised?
 

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Offline jancumps

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #156 on: January 13, 2017, 10:41:23 pm »
http://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/12/worlds-first-solar-road-opens-in-france/
 :palm:
[îmg]https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-850-french-wattway-solar-roadways-bullshit/?action=dlattach;attach=284939;image[/img]
 

Offline WastelandTek

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I'm new here, but I tend to be pretty gregarious, so if I'm out of my lane please call me out.
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #158 on: August 10, 2017, 05:11:36 pm »
Is there somewhere on the BBC website where you can answer the question in their headline with a resounding "NO!"   ? ? ?   :palm:
 

Online Domagoj T

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #159 on: August 10, 2017, 10:44:44 pm »
Is there somewhere on the BBC website where you can answer the question in their headline with a resounding "NO!"   ? ? ?   :palm:
No need for that.
Betteridge has already done that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines

Just a short quote from Wikipedia article, by Andrew Marr:
Quote
To a busy journalist hunting for real information a question mark means 'don't bother reading this bit'.[
 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #160 on: August 10, 2017, 11:18:09 pm »
At least the WattWay only wants to light a few streetlights, not melt snow or illuminate the road with fairy lights.

It's still a stupid amount to pay for modest power output.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #161 on: August 11, 2017, 12:47:37 am »
At least the WattWay only wants to light a few streetlights, not melt snow or illuminate the road with fairy lights.

It's like chalk and cheese. WattWay are a real road engineering company and have done their best to make a viable solar road.
Solar Roadways on the other hand with all it's wankery is just a joke from utterly clueless and delusional people who don't have one ounce of practical engineering consideration in their brain.

Quote
It's still a stupid amount to pay for modest power output.

Yep. Even with probably the best company in the world doing it, with surely the most practical implementation possible, it's still a dumb and essentially impractical idea compared to regular solar.
 

Online Specmaster

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #162 on: August 15, 2017, 08:36:24 am »
According to the BBC TV programme "Click", there's a company that is working to develop this solar roadway into a system that recharges electric cars while they drive along it as well and apparently there is a new type of solar cell that is only about 3mm thick and is bonded onto a steel plate, so this may not be as dumb as it sounds after all. I for one am keeping an open mind on this, after all, space travel a few years was thought to be impossible let alone put a man on the moon and people fell about laughing at the thought of it, BUT it has happened. While Dave is able to debunk this with technology we are currently aware of, may be tomorrow there could be a break through into new technology that could make it a reality?
Who let Murphy in?
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #163 on: August 15, 2017, 01:58:36 pm »
... may be tomorrow there could be a break through into new technology that could make it a reality?

Always a possibility - but unless there is something intrinsically tied to the format, you need to broaden your thinking.

Any improvement in solar technology that could make the roadways idea seem viable would also translate into more cost effective NON road solar.

For example (just using arbitrary numbers for this exercise...) let's say a solar roadway solution were to cost $10 per (whatever unit you want to use) and a solar farm $1.  Getting the solar roadway solution down to $1 per whatever doesn't make it viable - because the solar farm alternative will then come in at 10 cents, having benefited from the same technological advances.


If somebody wants to push the solar road idea, then I'm happy to let them have a go, but not with public funding - unless there is a true, identifiable engineering benefit.  (I wait to be amazed ... but I'm not holding my breath.)

Political agendas, hype, marketing and vested interests don't count.
 
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Online Specmaster

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #164 on: August 15, 2017, 04:46:33 pm »
Well that's why I said I was keeping an open mind on it. Maybe they can see other advantages / spinoffs from it that could make it viable and that is why this test track has been built. Time will tell.

Sent from my SM-J510FN using Tapatalk

Who let Murphy in?
 

Offline jonovid

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #165 on: August 15, 2017, 05:31:38 pm »
... may be tomorrow there could be a break through into new technology that could make it a reality?

Always a possibility - but unless there is something intrinsically tied to the format, you need to broaden your thinking.

Any improvement in solar technology that could make the roadways idea seem viable would also translate into more cost effective NON road solar.

For example (just using arbitrary numbers for this exercise...) let's say a solar roadway solution were to cost $10 per (whatever unit you want to use) and a solar farm $1.  Getting the solar roadway solution down to $1 per whatever doesn't make it viable - because the solar farm alternative will then come in at 10 cents, having benefited from the same technological advances.


If somebody wants to push the solar road idea, then I'm happy to let them have a go, but not with public funding - unless there is a true, identifiable engineering benefit.  (I wait to be amazed ... but I'm not holding my breath.)

Political agendas, hype, marketing and vested interests don't count.

I suspect that the people behind this type of project, are secretly pushing Political agendas, hype, marketing and vested interests.
like scientology's E-meter it works, but is it a toy?

on the positive side of the argument.
they are many applications where embedded solar road tiles in part of a highway may just be the best solution to the problem of powering illuminated LED road side marking like cat's eye's , illuminated road signs & Emergency phones on remote highways,
where underground power cable costs are prohibitive given the long distances.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 06:35:44 pm by jonovid »
Hobby of evil genius      basic knowledge of electronics
 

Offline FloFo

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #166 on: August 15, 2017, 06:57:56 pm »
they are many applications where embedded solar road tiles in part of a highway may just be the best solution to the problem of powering illuminated LED road side marking like cat's eye's , illuminated road signs & Emergency phones on remote highways,
where underground power cable costs are prohibitive given the long distances.
If you already have the signs, why not put the solar cell on top of it (giving shade for the sign at the same time, increasing visibility). I know this is already done for off-grid sensor stations or park ticket vending systems, just use an existing solar technology on top of the pole you have to install anyways, cheaper and more efficient and no research in new, robust, non glare, non-slippery but still efficient solar cells needed ...
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #167 on: August 15, 2017, 10:30:36 pm »
they are many applications where embedded solar road tiles in part of a highway may just be the best solution to the problem

There are NO applications where putting a piece of glass in a road surface is better than putting it on a stick at the side of the road.

of powering illuminated LED road side marking like cat's eye's

Cats eyes are powered by car headlamps, not electricity.

Emergency phones on remote highways,

Phones which are powered, how...?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 01:21:07 am by Fungus »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #168 on: August 15, 2017, 11:37:22 pm »
they are many applications where embedded solar road tiles in part of a highway may just be the best solution to the problem

There are NO applications where putting a piece of glass in a road surface is better than putting it on a stick at the side of the road.

This.
Although, I can imagine that aesthetics might be the only reason.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #169 on: August 16, 2017, 01:22:20 am »
There are NO applications where putting a piece of glass in a road surface is better than putting it on a stick at the side of the road.
I can imagine that aesthetics might be the only reason.

Also: "Politics"
 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #170 on: August 16, 2017, 02:15:21 am »
Cats eyes are powered by car headlamps, not electricity.

Those were installed locally a good few years back - the local low-life population stole the lot of them out of the road.

While they lasted they were very impressive, but obviously not thief-proof enough.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #171 on: August 16, 2017, 03:28:13 am »
Cats eyes are powered by car headlamps, not electricity.

Those were installed locally a good few years back - the local low-life population stole the lot of them out of the road.

While they lasted they were very impressive, but obviously not thief-proof enough.

I thought they were everywhere in the UK. I remember them being very useful when driving along country roads at night.

Have the Romanians started stealing those as well?
 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #172 on: August 16, 2017, 04:15:52 am »

I thought they were everywhere in the UK. I remember them being very useful when driving along country roads at night.

Have the Romanians started stealing those as well?
Cat's eyes, yes.

It's very noticeable when I drive in France that roads here do not have them.

But a while ago (several years) a test installation was made of some LED versions which reacted to vehicle headlight - I think that the power source was actually solar, not headlights, but they were a good bit brighter than normal cats eyes and very effective.

They all disappeared.
 
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Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #173 on: August 16, 2017, 05:20:15 am »
They have not been nicked here, and they are very effective. Solar powered yes, but with optics that mean the very bright LED light is directed almost all in one narrow cone down the road, and there are 2 emitters in the encapsulated block as well, one for forward and one back, so you have a white centre line  with a red line behind you, and yellow and red edge markers on the dual carriageway. Small and with what looks like a really effective lens assembly as well concentrating the ambient sunlight onto a small solar cell, and then probably a lithium cell for energy storage.  When the battery is getting low they change mode, from having a 200Hz or so pulse mode to having a 1Hz flashing mode to conserve power till daylight. They do light from sunset to sunrise though.

Still want to find one to take apart, but they are epoxied into the roadway itself in a casing.
 

Offline mikerj

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #174 on: August 16, 2017, 08:54:10 am »
I thought they were everywhere in the UK. I remember them being very useful when driving along country roads at night.

Not everywhere, lots of the smaller "B" roads or uncategorised roads don't have cats eyes.

I suspect grumpdoc is talking about the solar powered "active" cat's eyes that were introduced on some roads which actually had LEDs in them.  Quite an odd driving experience at night on an empty road, it's like something out of Tron.
 
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Offline HackedFridgeMagnet

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #175 on: August 16, 2017, 09:02:40 am »

But a while ago (several years) a test installation was made of some LED versions which reacted to vehicle headlight - I think that the power source was actually solar, not headlights, but they were a good bit brighter than normal cats eyes and very effective.

They all disappeared.

Maybe they were made by the Brusaws and are already past EOL. (3 months)
 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #176 on: August 16, 2017, 06:24:47 pm »
I suspect grumpdoc is talking about the solar powered "active" cat's eyes that were introduced on some roads which actually had LEDs in them.  Quite an odd driving experience at night on an empty road, it's like something out of Tron.
Indeed, excellent description.  :-+
 

Offline sibeen

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #177 on: August 16, 2017, 10:48:14 pm »
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #178 on: August 20, 2018, 02:16:09 am »
Thunderf00t's latest update on data from the Wattway and Solar Freakin Roadways...

 
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Online Domagoj T

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #179 on: September 24, 2018, 05:19:39 am »
Among the solar roads, this thread seems to be the most recently active...

This is about the Colas road in France.
They have released the data for the 1 km road, 420 kW installation, and it doesn't look good.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/09/solar-panels-replaced-tarmac-on-a-motorway-here-are-the-results/

Long story short, ten times the cost per kW installed, one third the output.
 
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Offline Jef06

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #180 on: July 25, 2019, 07:17:36 am »
Failure confirmed (how surprising!), The solar panels will be removed by the end of the year...
https://www.20minutes.fr/planete/2570759-20190724
(Please note: article is in French)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #181 on: July 25, 2019, 04:30:34 pm »
So many emails and message about this, I'm working on another video...
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #182 on: July 26, 2019, 05:42:56 am »
So many emails and message about this, I'm working on another video...
This time try to figure out how and where Colas & Solaroad want to make solar roads commercially viable otherwise it will be just another pointless rant video. Youtube already has enough ranters as it is.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline orion242

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #183 on: July 26, 2019, 08:16:05 am »
where Colas & Solaroad want to make solar roads commercially

Alternate universe clearly.
 

Offline wilfred

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Re: EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED
« Reply #184 on: July 26, 2019, 10:57:32 am »
<snipped>  otherwise it will be just another pointless rant video. Youtube already has enough ranters as it is.

There is no such thing as a pointless rant video. You just need to be clear about the point. I just did a search on "Thunderfoot roadway" and he's made over a dozen rant videos about this subject. Why?

I'll leave it to you do decide which is more pointless, the roads or the videos.
 


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