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Offline EEVblog

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EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« on: April 26, 2016, 12:23:26 pm »
Dave looks at possibly the world's most dangerous consumer product, a portable electrode boiler based water heater available on ebay.
Marketed as "safe", it is nothing less than a death trap!

EDIT: Holy crap! They sell this as a baby bath heater!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-220v-2500w-Bathtub-Baby-Swimming-Pool-Water-Quick-Heater-Heating-Tube-/331669347074?hash=item4d39089b02:g:TaYAAOSw9r1WDGQx

 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2016, 12:28:48 pm »
Since this is a safety topic, I thought I'd copy my YT comment here as well:


Chemistry:

Chlorine in tapwater is either dissolved chlorine gas (which is in equilibrium with similar forms, like hypochlorite, depending on the pH), or chloramine (the nasty stuff you get if you clean a toilet (urea, ammonia) with chlorine based disinfectant -- don't do it!).

In either case, heat decomposes both of them into harmless chloride (e.g., salt), and either free oxygen, or chlorate (which is a beefier version of chloride -- not particularly healthy but less toxic than hypochlorite).

These devices are remarkably effective, and chemically safe:

Line frequency oscillates fast enough that any electrolysis reaction is quickly reversed, so there is little if any erosion of the electrodes (which would break down the stainless steel electrodes, releasing iron, chromium and nickel), nor generation of gas.

The gas bubbles observed should be almost entirely from dissolved gasses (mostly CO2 and oxygen), with a very small amount of liberated hydrogen and oxygen.

The obvious drawback: the average potential in your mug of water is half the mains voltage, and for you blokes that's worth a full jolt of US mains!

There's also  the complete lack of power control, which still might be fine if you just need to warm some water for washing up (or maybe making tea, but I still wouldn't recommend drinking it), but just isn't wise for anything dissolved in there.  (Anyway, even with the AC input, I wouldn't count on your cup of hot chocolate escaping without a distinctly metallic taste.)

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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2016, 12:29:09 pm »
Won't the tea taste funny?

Who knows what kind of cheap nasty metal will end up dissolved in your tea?


 

Offline lapm

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2016, 12:34:52 pm »
Now im nearly speachless about this device... Even from chinese that has t be some sort of record about most dangerous crap sold..
Electronics, Linux, Programming, Science... im interested all of it...
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2016, 12:36:27 pm »
BigClive's contributions to the subject :


Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 
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Offline Ivan7enych

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2016, 12:40:48 pm »
I remember, when I was a student (in 90th), some students in our campus (far from home, no money at all, too big brains, no fear for life...) made those dangerous heaters from 2 stainless raizor blades, 2 wood matches (as a spacers), 2 wires and a thread. Moreover, when there was no wall electricity plug in a room, they attach wires to a lamp... They knew what they were doing, how dangerous it was, so nobody was killed, but sometimes the electricity shut down on the whole floor of the building due to overcurrent...

I thought these days have passed long time ago.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 12:55:40 pm by Ivan7enych »
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2016, 01:21:05 pm »
I remember, when I was a student (in 90th), some students in our campus (far from home, no money at all, too big brains, no fear for life...) made those dangerous heaters from 2 stainless raizor blades, 2 wood matches (as a spacers), 2 wires and a thread.

Information has been stored in "McGyver" category.
 

Offline rolycat

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2016, 01:53:09 pm »
There is an even more dangerous device being sold on ebay:



Yes, those exposed electrodes are live at (rectified) mains voltage.

Big Clive has also reviewed this on his YouTube channel (look for "Deadly quack water tester"). He has a hilariously unhealthy fascination with stupidly lethal bits of apparatus.

Other gems include the 'suicide shower' and the Turkish 'stinger' kettle which both connect mains voltages directly into water.
 
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Offline LazyJack

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2016, 02:16:39 pm »
What I've seen EE student doing to get a grilled sausage, is to stick two forks at both ends, and connect mains on it. More high tech guys actually put an amp meter in the circuit. The fun part is that this setup has a say negative feedback. That is when the sausage is getting roasted, it will loose water and it's conductivity will decrease. So once you see the dip in the amp meter, your meal is ready.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2016, 02:25:20 pm »
What I've seen EE student doing to get a grilled sausage, is to stick two forks at both ends, and connect mains on it. More high tech guys actually put an amp meter in the circuit. The fun part is that this setup has a say negative feedback. That is when the sausage is getting roasted, it will loose water and it's conductivity will decrease. So once you see the dip in the amp meter, your meal is ready.

Here is the commercial version   :)
 
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Offline dentaku

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2016, 03:19:06 pm »
People are starting to send Big Clive inspired item to Dave now. ;)
 

Offline MatthewMorgan

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2016, 03:46:57 pm »
There is an even more dangerous device being sold on ebay:



Yes, those exposed electrodes are live at (rectified) mains voltage.

Big Clive has also reviewed this on his YouTube channel (look for "Deadly quack water tester"). He has a hilariously unhealthy fascination with stupidly lethal bits of apparatus.

Other gems include the 'suicide shower' and the Turkish 'stinger' kettle which both connect mains voltages directly into water.

Estimated delivery Wednesday, 11. May. 2016 - Tuesday, 24. May. 2016

Hope this item gets to dave.
 

Offline tchicago

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2016, 04:17:47 pm »
Hi, Dave,

this is a derivative of the old well known Soviet DYI things. There was a deficit if pretty much all consumer products in Soviet Union, including water heaters/boilers. Check out how this thing looks in its most canonical form, very short video, no need to understand Russian: https://youtu.be/0trSKfP3OQ4?t=86
 

Offline k4rlhp

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2016, 04:40:44 pm »
As with everything, there is a tube video.

Look at this guy
https://youtu.be/dcrY59nGxBg

Is it really the most dangerous appliance?
 :-//
 
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Offline jitter

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2016, 04:52:00 pm »
I wasn't as surprised as Dave by seeing a device like that. I used to have an air moisturizer with just the same kind of heating element, but it was in a fully enclosed plastic housing and couldn't be operated with the lid off.

But people shower under so called "suicide shower" heads in large parts of the world. It was topic of a thread on this forum here.

« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 04:53:43 pm by jitter »
 
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Offline Nerull

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2016, 05:14:11 pm »
The danger with high voltage in water is being between the two potentials. I'd you were in contact with a ground and came near the live electrode, you would become the shortest path to ground,since the human body is more conductive than water that hasn't had a pound of salt dumped in it. This is how people get electrocuted when appliances fall in the water, or how swimmers get electrocuted near boats with poor wiring when they are hooked to shore power.
 

Online rfeecs

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2016, 05:28:50 pm »
What I've seen EE student doing to get a grilled sausage, is to stick two forks at both ends, and connect mains on it. More high tech guys actually put an amp meter in the circuit. The fun part is that this setup has a say negative feedback. That is when the sausage is getting roasted, it will loose water and it's conductivity will decrease. So once you see the dip in the amp meter, your meal is ready.
Here's Mr. Wizard doing it:
https://youtu.be/ScwbimMBklA
He gives lots of warnings:  This is dangerous.  Don't touch it.
Then at one point he snaps off the switch and grabs the forks one in each hand.  Yikes.
 

Offline edy

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2016, 05:29:39 pm »
As with everything, there is a tube video.

Look at this guy
https://youtu.be/dcrY59nGxBg

Is it really the most dangerous appliance?
 :-//

"Always carry an LED with you and test the water first...."  :-DD   :-DD    :-DD

Actually, this guy (ElectroBOOM) is actually quite funny. His channel trailer almost made me spit out my coffee... especially when he starts singing.  :-DD

« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 05:38:00 pm by edy »
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Offline ion

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2016, 06:06:44 pm »
What I've seen EE student doing to get a grilled sausage, is to stick two forks at both ends, and connect mains on it. More high tech guys actually put an amp meter in the circuit. The fun part is that this setup has a say negative feedback. That is when the sausage is getting roasted, it will loose water and it's conductivity will decrease. So once you see the dip in the amp meter, your meal is ready.

Seems that method isn't limited to sausages:

 

Offline rrinker

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2016, 06:08:03 pm »
 That Mr. Wizard segment reminds me of a project that was in a book I borrowed from the library as a kid The project consisted of one lamp cord with plug, 2 nails, and 1 piece of wood. You drove the mails through the bard, spaced a hot dog length apart, and wrapped the end of one of the wires from the cord around each nail. Stick on a hot dog, and plug it in.

 Safety last!

 Maybe even more scary? For a while there actually was a commercial appliance sold that was effectively just that, some points you stuck hot dogs on and then plugged it in. At least the commercial product had a cover - doubt it had an interlock switch though. The cover was more to prevent the hot dog grease from spattering all over, as opposed to protecting you from the live points inside.

Edit: Coppice has the video of it posted above - the Presto Hotdogger!


« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 06:09:48 pm by rrinker »
 

Offline k4rlhp

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2016, 06:54:14 pm »

Actually, this guy (ElectroBOOM) is actually quite funny. His channel trailer almost made me spit out my coffee... especially when he starts singing.  :-DD


Yes Sir!
U dont get 650k subscribers for nothing, I guess.
I like that the vids aren't just about fooling around but the guy seems to have a grasp on EE as well and actually tries to explain things as he goes.
 

Offline larrybl

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2016, 07:18:53 pm »
I had to comment on this. I think there was a commercial (US) product that was called the "Night Crawler" or something like that. Basically a 2' probe that you stuck in the ground and plugged into mains. The hot main was fed into the ground and anything in the ground (including fishing worms) came up. I made my own (as a kid) from a tire iron and extension cord. Very effective, but the worms didn't live long as I remembered.
 

Offline wolf32d

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2016, 08:10:06 pm »
As with everything, there is a tube video.

Look at this guy
https://youtu.be/dcrY59nGxBg

Is it really the most dangerous appliance?
 :-//

I just wanted to post this LOL
An LED + crappy heater followup is needed :)
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 08:29:42 pm by wolf32d »
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Offline David97

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2016, 09:58:56 pm »
I first saw these on bigclivedotcom. Also found out about these really safe shower heads there aswell :D
 

Offline apis

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2016, 10:52:03 pm »
I was about to post the suicide shower video from bigclive as well. I can't believe this is legal to sell/install anywhere. :scared:

I used to have an air moisturizer with just the same kind of heating element, but it was in a fully enclosed plastic housing and couldn't be operated with the lid off.
That sounds somewhat more sensible though, if it runs out of water it would turn itself off automatically. A unit with a heater could start a fire if it malfunctions.

Is it really the most dangerous appliance?
 :-//
Just don't forget to wear your plastic slippers!
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 10:58:16 pm by apis »
 

Offline Stonent

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2016, 10:57:39 pm »
There is an even more dangerous device being sold on ebay:



Yes, those exposed electrodes are live at (rectified) mains voltage.

Big Clive has also reviewed this on his YouTube channel (look for "Deadly quack water tester"). He has a hilariously unhealthy fascination with stupidly lethal bits of apparatus.

Other gems include the 'suicide shower' and the Turkish 'stinger' kettle which both connect mains voltages directly into water.

The larger the government, the smaller the citizen.
 

Offline Tac Eht Xilef

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2016, 11:05:05 pm »
this is a derivative of the old well known Soviet DYI things.

DYI? "Do Yourself In"?
 
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Offline JoeN

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2016, 11:32:11 pm »
They've sold quite a few more now. 

Have You Been Triggered Today?
 
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Offline f4eru

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2016, 11:37:39 pm »
The "suicide shower" is quite common in some countries. It's a very clever device, even if dangerous by western standards.
The designers should have included a longer cable, so the (often poorly made) connections would not lie directly over the shower.
The earth connection could have been doubled.
Also keep in mind that the countries where this is sold often do not use GFCI protection.

My favorite picture of an installation of this device :
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 11:40:20 pm by f4eru »
 
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Offline Smokey

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2016, 01:56:04 am »
You probably either had really hard water or they were specing the wattage for 110V not 220.  The other dude that tested one of those had the wattage numbers come out much closer at first.
 

Offline Samogon

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2016, 03:59:02 am »
I remember, when I was a student (in 90th), some students in our campus (far from home, no money at all, too big brains, no fear for life...) made those dangerous heaters from 2 stainless raizor blades, 2 wood matches (as a spacers), 2 wires and a thread. Moreover, when there was no wall electricity plug in a room, they attach wires to a lamp... They knew what they were doing, how dangerous it was, so nobody was killed, but sometimes the electricity shut down on the whole floor of the building due to overcurrent...

I thought these days have passed long time ago.
We did it in our dorm too. 3Liter jar in 10 seconds boiling water. No one was killed.
 

Offline Lamp

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2016, 06:32:00 am »
Actually I would use this or something like this to heat a bathtub in an emergency or something like that... but I think I would stay outside and have a switch outside and keep the door locked while it was cooking.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2016, 07:01:39 am »
You probably either had really hard water or they were specing the wattage for 110V not 220.  The other dude that tested one of those had the wattage numbers come out much closer at first.

The package says 220V
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2016, 07:15:26 am »
That's nowhere dangerous compared to what I did in college. In most Chinese college, to prevent student from playing LoL or DoTA over night, the school will cut off dorm power at 11:00 PM, so we usually tap live wires from corridor light fixtures or even bust open distribution boxes to tap wires. Yes, 220V live wires, nobody even bother to measure the voltage. The only damage I know is doing this occasionally trips the building's GFCI, but no one was hurt during my 4 years of college career.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 08:33:25 am by blueskull »
 

Offline hayatepilot

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2016, 08:11:49 am »
Actually I would use this or something like this to heat a bathtub in an emergency or something like that... but I think I would stay outside and have a switch outside and keep the door locked while it was cooking.
Wouldn't thad trip the RCCB in any modern building?
Since the drain is grounded the breaker would kick in immediately.
 

Offline RGB255_0_0

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2016, 08:26:58 am »
Actually I would use this or something like this to heat a bathtub in an emergency or something like that... but I think I would stay outside and have a switch outside and keep the door locked while it was cooking.
Wouldn't thad trip the RCCB in any modern building?
Since the drain is grounded the breaker would kick in immediately.
If the bath was ungrounded, no.

NEC specifies water areas must have metal bonded to the EGC so you can not use a plastic plug and plastic surrounding the plug in a fibreglass bathtub as the metal must be bonded to a perfection device; you must have a permanent metal fixture in a pool bonded to the EGC and an exponential grid.

So without a leakage current you wouldn't trip
Your toaster just set fire to an African child over TCP.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2016, 08:45:14 am »
Actually I would use this or something like this to heat a bathtub in an emergency or something like that... but I think I would stay outside and have a switch outside and keep the door locked while it was cooking.
Wouldn't thad trip the RCCB in any modern building?
Since the drain is grounded the breaker would kick in immediately.

Maybe.

You could always do it in a plastic bucket.
 

Offline chrism2010

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2016, 09:21:08 am »
And if you're using one of those "suicide shower" heaters, don't forget the earth connection!! :-DD

 

Offline k4rlhp

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2016, 09:36:54 am »
Wouldn't thad trip the RCCB in any modern building?
Since the drain is grounded the breaker would kick in immediately.
If the bath was ungrounded, no.

Okay, lets make things more interesting  :box:
My claim is that the 'technology' is fairly safe and not as dangerous as you try to portray (when used properly, of course).

1. there are tons of commercial solutions for consumer and industrial market employing this method. I can send you a picture of an industrial heater rated for 25kW used to either heat utility water or provide heating to HVAC systems (NB! directly coupled via conductive liquid to metal fixtures like radiators or kitchen taps). If you want, I can sell it to you for €300 + shipping, it's perfectly functional.
2. falling water does not conduct due to formation of droplets (shower case). Else, everybody who walks out during thunderstorm would already be toast meat a'la hotdogger.
3. water is fairly poor conductor so the resistor network it forms in between the electrodes, human body and the grounding point (fault current) wont normally pass current or potential to matter (e.g. even to trip the RCCD fault current condition).

Obviously, using intrinsically unsafe device (i.e. broken or some hacked/smacked device) will be just as dangerous as with any other home appliance. So if you are stupid enough to heat water in your mouth with this method using two spoons in your mouth connected to mains, then you deserve to die and relieve us from further contamination in gene pool.

Hopefully this stirs things up a bit ;)


 

Offline AhhhChoo

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2016, 06:19:50 pm »
I'm with Rolycat, nothing much else can exceed this one ..

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASnLL6ebaco>


 

Offline AhhhChoo

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2016, 06:48:26 pm »
Maybe china's idea (isolation from the rest of the world) is no bad thing after all ?
 

Offline mikerj

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2016, 09:25:25 pm »
Too bad they don't isolate their products as well.
 

Offline Nerull

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2016, 09:26:51 pm »
Wouldn't thad trip the RCCB in any modern building?
Since the drain is grounded the breaker would kick in immediately.
If the bath was ungrounded, no.


3. water is fairly poor conductor so the resistor network it forms in between the electrodes, human body and the grounding point (fault current) wont normally pass current or potential to matter (e.g. even to trip the RCCD fault current condition).

Were this true, electrocution in water would never happen. Yet, it does.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/swimming-pool-safety-electrocutions-raise-alarm-summer-n112521
http://lakeexpo.com/news/lake_news/swimmer-electrocuted-at-lake-of-the-ozarks/article_25de24fe-1929-11e5-8ca0-0ff78a16476d.html

UL estimates electricity in water travels about 2 ft per volt, and if you're within that voltage gradient you are at risk, especially if you touch a ground.

Electrocution of swimmers near docks is disturbingly common. A live wire can energize a large area of water, and if a swimmer anywhere nearby touches a metal railing or other grounded object, they are likely to get shocked.

You really shouldn't handwave away electrical safety issues you don't know anything about.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 09:29:54 pm by Nerull »
 

Offline JoeN

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2016, 02:14:50 am »
1. there are tons of commercial solutions for consumer and industrial market employing this method. I can send you a picture of an industrial heater rated for 25kW used to either heat utility water or provide heating to HVAC systems (NB! directly coupled via conductive liquid to metal fixtures like radiators or kitchen taps). If you want, I can sell it to you for €300 + shipping, it's perfectly functional.

What country is this all common in exactly?
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Offline f4eru

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2016, 05:43:22 am »
NEC specifies water areas must have metal bonded to the EGC so you can not use a plastic plug and plastic surrounding the plug in a fibreglass bathtub as the metal must be bonded to a perfection device; you must have a permanent metal fixture in a pool bonded to the EGC and an exponential grid.

So without a leakage current you wouldn't trip
That'S in the US. In a lot of countries you can use electrically isolated metal taps. In EU, you can use indifferently PE and metal pipes, and you have to ground the main water distribution point if it is metal, and big metal parts in the wet room. 30mA RCDs are mandatory for everything in the wet room, and there are minimal distances from the water outlet to any electrical appliance (no electrical shower head allowed)

Besides, in France, 30mA RCDs are mandatory for the whole house., and that's a good thing.

1. there are tons of commercial solutions for consumer and industrial market employing this method. I can send you a picture of an industrial heater rated for 25kW used to either heat utility water or provide heating to HVAC systems (NB! directly coupled via conductive liquid to metal fixtures like radiators or kitchen taps). If you want, I can sell it to you for €300 + shipping, it's perfectly functional.
It's functional but not allowed in many countries. Can you post us a photo of the label to see the safety marks ?

2. falling water does not conduct due to formation of droplets (shower case). Else, everybody who walks out during thunderstorm would already be toast meat a'la hotdogger.
Not guaranteed. Depends on distance to the shower head. And obviously you can touch the shower head, so you will get toast.


3. water is fairly poor conductor so the resistor network it forms in between the electrodes, human body and the grounding point (fault current) wont normally pass current or potential to matter (e.g. even to trip the RCCD fault current condition).
Wrong. Pure water is a good insulator. But it's also a very very very good solvent, so it does not stay pure for very long. As soon as it's not pure any more, it conducts. Tap water always conducts with various resistivities.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 05:52:27 am by f4eru »
 

Offline mux

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2016, 09:48:35 am »
I made a video just now to explain this phenomenon of ionic conductivity in water. It's an extremely strong effect, because water is not just a very good polar solvent, but ionic pathways tend to open up especially on voltage gradients and you really don't need much in the way of dissolved ions to get into the low-ohms volume resistivity of water.

Try it out for yourself! Science the shit out of it!

https://youtu.be/exn90L95dgI
 
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Offline rch

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2016, 11:39:36 am »
I made a video just now to explain this phenomenon of ionic conductivity in water. It's an extremely strong effect, because water is not just a very good polar solvent, but ionic pathways tend to open up especially on voltage gradients and you really don't need much in the way of dissolved ions to get into the low-ohms volume resistivity of water.

Try it out for yourself! Science the shit out of it!

https://youtu.be/exn90L95dgI

Thanks for the video.  But would it be a good idea to omit 'EEVBLOG'  from the Youtube title?   It has the potential to confuse.
 

Offline RGB255_0_0

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« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 12:00:52 pm by RGB255_0_0 »
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Offline rrinker

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2016, 12:19:56 pm »
 The principle was used for light dimming applications such as theater lighting way back when.

http://www.compulite.com/stagelight/html/history-5/salt-dimmers.html

 
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Offline mux

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2016, 01:38:04 pm »
Thanks for the video.  But would it be a good idea to omit 'EEVBLOG'  from the Youtube title?   It has the potential to confuse.

I personally don't see the problem (it has pretty much exactly the format of response videos when Youtube still had that as a thing), but I asked Dave if he'd like it to be removed.

What do you use for a fork?

You mean the PCB to the left of my plate? ;)

The principle was used for light dimming applications such as theater lighting way back when.

http://www.compulite.com/stagelight/html/history-5/salt-dimmers.html

Now that is cool. And genius as well; you can make massively high power variable resistors with that method for pennies worth of material. The fluid can simply be recirculated across a big heatsink to get rid of the heat.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2016, 01:55:04 pm »
Thanks for the video.  But would it be a good idea to omit 'EEVBLOG'  from the Youtube title?   It has the potential to confuse.

He's got "Re:" in the title, so that's ok.
 

Offline rch

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2016, 02:46:04 pm »
Thanks for the video.  But would it be a good idea to omit 'EEVBLOG'  from the Youtube title?   It has the potential to confuse.

He's got "Re:" in the title, so that's ok.

Thanks.  So I was only confused because I don't know much about Youtube.  Sorry!
 

Offline k4rlhp

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2016, 04:09:11 pm »

https://youtu.be/exn90L95dgI
What do you use for a fork?

Very good.
Now, if you keep the electrodes close to each-other and otherwise isolated, like in the contraption starred in the original subject video, where is the conductive path formed?
In between the exposed electrodes.
The very effect (stirring the water) in your video demonstrates this admirably.
Consider the rate of flow in btw the electrodes vs. elsewhere and the resistor network this creates.
This is fluid dynamics and probability.
You're welcome to try and prove me wrong.

My point was that if the device is properly built and used, it is safe enough even if at some local level it seems otherwise (exposed electrodes!!! :scared:).

If the opposite were true, a user of the shower contraption would be killed as soon as one tries to start the water flow (touching metal presumably).
And the pictures posted in this thread form "the proof is in the pudding" evidence.
Or do we think that fellow Russians and Chinese are so tough that they just push the previous dead body next to the old pile of corpses and take shower without further hesitation???

The thing is that, if even the smacked together solutions seen on these photos are not regularly killing people, it's for a systemic reason, not for the lack of it (ie. massive persistent spike of luck in Russia and China???).

One more thing, these "contraptions" are certified in EU by EN 60335-1 and EN 60335-2-35
This, of course, presumes sound engineering in design and build, which was my original point.
Therefore, acceptably safe applications of the technology exist.
Therefore, the technology itself is not fundamentally "unsafe", (only the bad examples of application are unsafe, as with any other technology)
I rest my case. (damn, I sound like a lawyer, I best shut up...)

K
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2016, 04:13:25 pm »
Thanks for the video.  But would it be a good idea to omit 'EEVBLOG'  from the Youtube title?   It has the potential to confuse.

He's got "Re:" in the title, so that's ok.

I've not come across that on Youtube.  Is this a standard method to title a response video to another Youtuber's video - or just something you are OK with?
 

Offline k4rlhp

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #54 on: April 28, 2016, 04:25:00 pm »

1. there are tons of commercial solutions for consumer and industrial market employing this method. I can send you a picture of an industrial heater rated for 25kW used to either heat utility water or provide heating to HVAC systems (NB! directly coupled via conductive liquid to metal fixtures like radiators or kitchen taps). If you want, I can sell it to you for €300 + shipping, it's perfectly functional.
It's functional but not allowed in many countries. Can you post us a photo of the label to see the safety marks ?

Well, memory didn't serve me right here. it's 20kw and not industrial but consumer...
Nevertheless, a photo provided, see the attachment.

Hey, I just had a great idea!
I should send this to Dave for teardown ;)
only 100kg 1m*1.2m*0.4m
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 04:29:51 pm by k4rlhp »
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #55 on: April 28, 2016, 05:36:48 pm »
Plenty of electrodeless boilers around, often used to generate steam in industrial plant, using a 3 phase supply. The only thing you need to make sure of is that the water inles is a grounded metal fitting, and the supply piping is conductive and ground bonded. The other requirement is for an industrial GFCI to be installed, which has a sensitivity that can range from 100mA to 5A or more, depending on the size of the boiler.

With a 3 phase unit there is no ground current in normal use, unless there is a fault as the concentric arrangement of the electrodes means the water inlet is in an equipotential point, so it is effectively at neutral potential and thus ground. Single phase units do exist, as both steam and water heaters, but those will have a ground current through the fittings in normal use, so use a low sensitivity GFCI unit. The 3 phase ones and the single phase ones will only trip on ground current if the electrode breaks off or the one electrode boils dry.

They often are an all steel tank construction, and the bigger ones use an 11kV supply direct from a low voltage transformer, where you want a large amount of high pressure steam and do not want to have a conventional oil or coal fired boiler. Still the same pressure test and boiler examinations though.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 05:39:24 pm by SeanB »
 

Offline mux

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2016, 06:09:45 pm »
Very good.
Now, if you keep the electrodes close to each-other and otherwise isolated, like in the contraption starred in the original subject video, where is the conductive path formed?
In between the exposed electrodes.
The very effect (stirring the water) in your video demonstrates this admirably.
Consider the rate of flow in btw the electrodes vs. elsewhere and the resistor network this creates.
This is fluid dynamics and probability.
You're welcome to try and prove me wrong.

Well, that is a very facetious argument. The electric field emanates from both electrodes radially. It will be neutral if no other conductors are present, but we're not talking about that, we're talking about a human for instance sticking their finger in the baby's bathwater while this contraption is in there heating the water. That human creates a conductive path to ground and will get a serious shock at 1/2 mains voltage. Because the water is essentially a conductor.

Quote
My point was that if the device is properly built and used, it is safe enough even if at some local level it seems otherwise (exposed electrodes!!! :scared:).

It is categorically unsafe in any circumstance. It should never be used near humans.

Quote
If the opposite were true, a user of the shower contraption would be killed as soon as one tries to start the water flow (touching metal presumably).
And the pictures posted in this thread form "the proof is in the pudding" evidence.
Or do we think that fellow Russians and Chinese are so tough that they just push the previous dead body next to the old pile of corpses and take shower without further hesitation???

Direct water heaters are one of the leading causes of electrocution, the rate of which is almost two orders of magnitude higher in China compared to western countries. This would be considered an unacceptable risk by any lawmaker.

Quote
The thing is that, if even the smacked together solutions seen on these photos are not regularly killing people, it's for a systemic reason, not for the lack of it (ie. massive persistent spike of luck in Russia and China???).

But they do regularly kill people. However, this is the cheapest way to heat water and we're dealing with people far below the poverty line. What's worse, dying from disease or having to use a dangerous device that, if used under specific circumstances, doesn't kill you?

Quote
One more thing, these "contraptions" are certified in EU by EN 60335-1 and EN 60335-2-35
This, of course, presumes sound engineering in design and build, which was my original point.
Therefore, acceptably safe applications of the technology exist.
Therefore, the technology itself is not fundamentally "unsafe", (only the bad examples of application are unsafe, as with any other technology)
I rest my case. (damn, I sound like a lawyer, I best shut up...)

... they are certified for use in an enclosed, insulated container (water boiler). Not with open conductors to mains in user-reachable areas.
 

Offline classical

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2016, 06:39:31 pm »
Using youtube search with keywords "electrica doucha lorenzetti" you can find a lot of users of these directly heated showers.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=electrica+doucha+lorenzetti

This one

seems to be the official installation guide by Lorenzetti. Have a look on the distribution box at 04:58.
Safety in electricity seems to be handled different than in AUS, EU or even US.

Does anyone have statistics about electrocution in these countries compared to the US, EU, AU?
 

Offline sarepairman2

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2016, 04:24:21 am »
Wouldn't thad trip the RCCB in any modern building?
Since the drain is grounded the breaker would kick in immediately.
If the bath was ungrounded, no.

Okay, lets make things more interesting  :box:
My claim is that the 'technology' is fairly safe and not as dangerous as you try to portray (when used properly, of course).

1. there are tons of commercial solutions for consumer and industrial market employing this method. I can send you a picture of an industrial heater rated for 25kW used to either heat utility water or provide heating to HVAC systems (NB! directly coupled via conductive liquid to metal fixtures like radiators or kitchen taps). If you want, I can sell it to you for €300 + shipping, it's perfectly functional.
2. falling water does not conduct due to formation of droplets (shower case). Else, everybody who walks out during thunderstorm would already be toast meat a'la hotdogger.
3. water is fairly poor conductor so the resistor network it forms in between the electrodes, human body and the grounding point (fault current) wont normally pass current or potential to matter (e.g. even to trip the RCCD fault current condition).

Obviously, using intrinsically unsafe device (i.e. broken or some hacked/smacked device) will be just as dangerous as with any other home appliance. So if you are stupid enough to heat water in your mouth with this method using two spoons in your mouth connected to mains, then you deserve to die and relieve us from further contamination in gene pool.

Hopefully this stirs things up a bit ;)

LOOLOLOLOL assuming that something is safe because its sold commercially is downright fucking RETARDED::) :-DD |O :scared: :wtf: :rant:

 >:(

never see a shower get a laminar flow before? hooking this up to anything but some kind of specialized industrial equipment with skilled technicians is just STUPID.

not to mention contamination of the water from electrolysis.

not to mention that its made of chinese mystery metal, meaning that the electrodes will decay and eventually your gonna have a electrode that is sticking out of the protective housing due to excessive decay, completely changing how the electric field forms between the electrodes.

then your gonna get some person that forgets to unplug it when they wanna fix up a cup of ramen noodles at 3am after doing ketamine and drinking all night in a hong kong strip club... god forbid someone decides to stick it up their ass too.

some things should just not be built.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 04:45:26 am by sarepairman2 »
 

Offline crispy_tofu

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2016, 04:36:25 am »
Thanks for the video.  But would it be a good idea to omit 'EEVBLOG'  from the Youtube title?   It has the potential to confuse.

He's got "Re:" in the title, so that's ok.

I've not come across that on Youtube.  Is this a standard method to title a response video to another Youtuber's video - or just something you are OK with?

If only video responses were still around...  ;)
thanks Google Plus
 

Offline WVL_KsZeN

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #60 on: April 30, 2016, 02:30:00 pm »
This is how coffee was made at the university campus in Khartoum, Sudan. Had a ball while we where there!!! It also really heated up the water really quickly  :o Too bad the coffee was hardly drinkable, but you have to get your caffeine shot someway  :P

I also had the pleasure of using the suicide showers in Peru, Guatemala, Honduras and prolly also in Costa Rica.

In Myanmar I had the pleasure of switching on the lights in a room by making/breaking the connection with a safety pin.

I'm still alive  O0
 

Offline apis

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #61 on: April 30, 2016, 03:33:59 pm »
Well, that is a very facetious argument. The electric field emanates from both electrodes radially. It will be neutral if no other conductors are present, but we're not talking about that, we're talking about a human for instance sticking their finger in the baby's bathwater while this contraption is in there heating the water. That human creates a conductive path to ground and will get a serious shock at 1/2 mains voltage. Because the water is essentially a conductor.
Exactly, stick in your finger too stir and see if the temperature is high enough... and zaaap

Babys bath getting a bit cold? Dip in the heater (with baby and hand) and stir a bit... zaaap zaaap  :scared:

For boilers it's fine (ignoring electro-chemistry, may not be suitable for drinking water) since the electrodes are far from any human and the water inlet and outlets and piping would be grounded (I presume). It's actually safer in the sense it can't overheat if run dry.

As for the suicide shower: the device might be safe-ish (in theory) if installed properly and the drain is connected with plastic piping... and you didn't have to adjust the power level close to the heating elements (in this case you're supposed to reach up and touch the thing if you want higher power!) Apparently some installations don't even bother with the earth wire and if you look at bigclives video, his specimen had the water-exit earth wire dipped in silicone (if I understood it correctly) so it was completely useless anyway.  :palm:
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 12:34:01 pm by apis »
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #62 on: May 01, 2016, 04:04:24 am »
 Holy cow, talking about boats leaking current into the water when using shore power - a 15 year old girl was recently killed swimming in a lake in Alabama, and while her official cause of death was listed as accidental drowning, it seems like what happened was that she was electrocuted swimming too close to some docked boats.

 

Offline mux

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #63 on: May 01, 2016, 07:41:31 am »
Thanks for the video.  But would it be a good idea to omit 'EEVBLOG'  from the Youtube title?   It has the potential to confuse.

He's got "Re:" in the title, so that's ok.

I've not come across that on Youtube.  Is this a standard method to title a response video to another Youtuber's video - or just something you are OK with?

Back in the day, you had the option below any youtube video to make a 'video response', which would automatically be titled 'Re: [video title]', unlisted by default and the creator of the original video would get notified that somebody made a response. The reason for this feature originally was that Youtube started out as a dating site, and such a feature makes sense then. Google turned Youtube around from dating to general video site, and axed this feature even though it was used pretty usefully.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2016, 09:16:54 am »
Holy cow, talking about boats leaking current into the water when using shore power
If you're swimming, you wouldn't need enough current to actually kill, just cause enough muscle control problems to prevent you swimming properly. Coupled with  the very good connection of water to the body, I wouldn't be surprised if it only took a few tens of mA
 
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Offline rolycat

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2016, 09:53:42 am »
Holy cow, talking about boats leaking current into the water when using shore power
If you're swimming, you wouldn't need enough current to actually kill, just cause enough muscle control problems to prevent you swimming properly. Coupled with  the very good connection of water to the body, I wouldn't be surprised if it only took a few tens of mA
 
Sort of related :


Big Clive is a mine of information.

Of course, electric shock drowning only occurs in fresh water, so the seagoing vessels he is talking about aren't capable of causing it - you would need to be touching them directly to get a shock.


 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #66 on: May 01, 2016, 10:26:57 am »
Harbours often have large areas of mostly fresh ( well sort of, at least not too salty, though it would not be classed as potable or healthy to drink) water in them, and often the yacht marinas are located there as the draught is to little for bigger ships, and the area is not good for wharfing so it becomes the private yacht area sort of by default. This will have similar conductivity to fresh river water at times, so the shock hazard is as great.
 
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Offline RGB255_0_0

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #67 on: May 05, 2016, 09:22:39 pm »
This is relevant:

Your toaster just set fire to an African child over TCP.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: EEVblog #873 - World's Most Dangerous Consumer Product!
« Reply #68 on: May 09, 2016, 12:20:21 pm »
Well, it is dangerous, but what do you expect from a people who value life so cheaply, where dog-eat-dog has been the cultural norm. "To Get Rich is Glorious!"

The end user in the West who buys this stuff is the biggest idiot of them all, second to their own idiotic government that reacts rather than prevents...

https://www.accc.gov.au/update/infinity-cable-recall-act-now-before-its-too-late
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-27/cheap-cladding-turns-apartments-into-time-bombs/6501716





 
 


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