EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on July 19, 2016, 02:30:35 am
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There has been a ton of media hype about paving the famous Route 66 with the Brusaw's Solar Roadways.
Too bad it's all over hyped bullshit.
Note, the last 5 minutes is repeat material.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_S6kowyvreY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_S6kowyvreY)
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It's either a serious commentary on the state of modern journalism and education, or one of the most expensive trolls ever conducted on Dave. :-DD
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Yeah, the big fail here is all of the "journalists" hyping the "paving of Route 66" when in fact it is nothing of the sort.
The Solar Roadways people might be clueless, or they might be con artists. Either way that is their business. The sad part is that so many people and institutions seem to fall for it.
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I think many of the Solar roadway (SR) companies are in it for the federal funds. And are soaking up as much as they can before the bubble bursts.
Once SR stops getting funded, they die. I don't think any of the companies are sustainable as they are now.
Route 66 goes thru the dessert at many stretches (I'm not 100% on that, I'm no master in the US infrastructure), wouldn't it be better to build a quality solar array with the same amount of m² in the dessert, and keep all the converters, monitoring and other supporting systems in one place. Easier for everyone that way.
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We have a similar project now in Germany, part government funded:
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/04/13/solmove-sees-german-roads-as-an-energy-source/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2016/04/13/solmove-sees-german-roads-as-an-energy-source/)
But it doesn't need expensive roadworks, it is some kind of solar-cell-carpet they just need to roll over a road, they say in a (German) article about it:
http://www.deutschlandfunk.de/fotovoltaik-fliesen-wenn-die-strasse-zum-kraftwerk-wird.676.de.html?dram:article_id=359922 (http://www.deutschlandfunk.de/fotovoltaik-fliesen-wenn-die-strasse-zum-kraftwerk-wird.676.de.html?dram:article_id=359922)
Don't know, still the problem with snow or dirt on it, but we don't have much snow, maybe this is more feasible? But a carpet doesn't sound very durable.
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On the snow melting thing. As a regular tar road is, by it's very nature, coated with a surface that is pretty much an almost perfect carbon nanotube ideal black body, probably almost as good as Vantablack ( so black you cannot see it, the next best thing to a black hole event horizon without the nasty gravity killing you) and that is, you guessed it, covered with snow and ice in the winter. Only way to clear it is to either mechanically remove it or to apply melting point depressants. That or wait for spring.
Solar wise the same, but the parking lot is better served with a roof structure, which by it's nature only has to cope with a snow and wind load, not a 22 ton point load ( the maximum axle load permitted on a regular road).
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We have a similar project now in Germany, part government funded:
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/04/13/solmove-sees-german-roads-as-an-energy-source/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2016/04/13/solmove-sees-german-roads-as-an-energy-source/)
But it doesn't need expensive roadworks, it is some kind of solar-cell-carpet they just need to roll over a road, they say in a (German) article about it:
http://www.deutschlandfunk.de/fotovoltaik-fliesen-wenn-die-strasse-zum-kraftwerk-wird.676.de.html?dram:article_id=359922 (http://www.deutschlandfunk.de/fotovoltaik-fliesen-wenn-die-strasse-zum-kraftwerk-wird.676.de.html?dram:article_id=359922)
Don't know, still the problem with snow or dirt on it, but we don't have much snow, maybe this is more feasible? But a carpet doesn't sound very durable.
Looks very similar to the French Colas Wattway one.
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Looks very similar to the French Colas Wattway one.
Right, but is it better? They have a calculation page:
http://www.solmove.com/kalkulation/ (http://www.solmove.com/kalkulation/)
Enter 100 m^2 and it says it costs EUR 25,000, but you'll get EUR 35,000 in 25 years :)
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Solar wise the same, but the parking lot is better served with a roof structure, which by it's nature only has to cope with a snow and wind load, not a 22 ton point load ( the maximum axle load permitted on a regular road).
Well... it won't be axle load on the road surface. Pressure on the road or panels will be the same as the air pressure in the tires. Assuming it has pneumatic tires, anyway. A bulldozer or some other road construction machinery is a different matter.
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Solar wise the same, but the parking lot is better served with a roof structure, which by it's nature only has to cope with a snow and wind load, not a 22 ton point load ( the maximum axle load permitted on a regular road).
Well... it won't be axle load on the road surface. Pressure on the road or panels will be the same as the air pressure in the tires. Assuming it has pneumatic tires, anyway. A bulldozer or some other road construction machinery is a different matter.
Some back-of-the-envelope calculations:
An 'average' car tire at 2.6 bar has a surface contact with the road of about 0.015 m2, if we assume a car at 2 metric tons that equals 3.33 kg/cm^2 or 47.6 psi. (although these are dependent variables!)
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Haha they have shown that southern Arizona is a better place to for solar panels than Idaho and Missouri.
:clap: (slow)
I am from there and could have told anyone that for a lot less tax dollars than they got. My bid is $1.00 for this hard hitting research. Government does funny things when you don't ask for money, so I had to put something.
I think Solar Roadways government funding came from a SBIR. Typically those require results to go from phase 1 to 2. Phase 1 is usually just a investigation and simple prof of concept. It is common with SBIR's to require performance numbers. What the hell did they show? and why did they government approve for phase 2 ? 2 times!
There is nothing practical about this stupid solar roadway crap. How is it still around? :palm:
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There is nothing practical about this stupid solar roadway crap. How is it still around? :palm:
Baksheesh?
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About the snow melting thing. Put some carbon dust or ash on the snow to make it dark. If the snow does not melt, then there is not enough energy coming from the sun to melt it. And this would have much higher efficiency than a solar panel partly covered in snow. The only thing it would be capable of doing is to melt a little bit of snow, run out of energy and let the snow freeze into ice. Now you have one slippery road.
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let the snow freeze into ice. Now you have one slippery road.
Even with ordinary rain you'll still be driving on wet glass.
That doesn't sound like a very safe thing to do.
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I would love to see solar roads, especially on those long deserts stretches where there is not much traffic. Of course I am not thinking of the Brusaw's Solar Roadways. They have such a bad idea.
I am talking about my solar road that uses the regular bitumen and aggregate laid down on top of a network of some kind of piping which is used as a heat exchanger. I would think that would be a more efficient solar collector than any photo-voltaic solar panels available today.
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Some back-of-the-envelope calculations:
An 'average' car tire at 2.6 bar has a surface contact with the road of about 0.015 m2, if we assume a car at 2 metric tons that equals 3.33 kg/cm^2 or 47.6 psi. (although these are dependent variables!)
funny, works out to be the air pressure in the tires?
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HAs to be, as rubber is only there for transferring tle mass to the road, it does not really provide any physical support. Solid tyres ( as used on forklift trucks and such) are really not good at absorbing any vibration.
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Some back-of-the-envelope calculations:
An 'average' car tire at 2.6 bar has a surface contact with the road of about 0.015 m2, if we assume a car at 2 metric tons that equals 3.33 kg/cm^2 or 47.6 psi. (although these are dependent variables!)
funny, works out to be the air pressure in the tires?
It should be, obviously. Just took a minute to realize!
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let the snow freeze into ice. Now you have one slippery road.
Even with ordinary rain you'll still be driving on wet glass.
That doesn't sound like a very safe thing to do.
I think that's why half of their promo material shows a tile with the word 'SLOW' :)
(See also the thumbnail od Dave's video above)
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Some back-of-the-envelope calculations:
An 'average' car tire at 2.6 bar has a surface contact with the road of about 0.015 m2, if we assume a car at 2 metric tons that equals 3.33 kg/cm^2 or 47.6 psi. (although these are dependent variables!)
funny, works out to be the air pressure in the tires?
With a large margin of error.
The weight of the car is the same with over or under-inflated tires.
Even with zero pressure in the tires the car will still press down on the road(!)
No, I wouldn't like to go into the detailed math of that.
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There is nothing practical about this stupid solar roadway crap. How is it still around? :palm:
It's simple - it sounds green, futuristic and nice to the public and it looks good on whatever list of what your local administration did. Since the general public has a scientific knowledge comparable to a turnip and (local) politicians and administration have effectively no accountability they will easily get away with it and any naysayers (yes Dave, I mean you) will be labeled as bad people payed by the tarmac industry...
From a point of view that doesn't really want results but rather wants to brag about initiatives it started it's ideal - any problems can get blamed on the supplier (whom obviously does not give one quarter of a crap) and the initiator can claim that they tried vigorously to try to bring cutting edge technology to your city.
Add to that all sorts of back room deals and you've got an ideal project.
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You've got to love the Health and Safety culture in the USA. There's the woman from the Highways Department being interviewed in the car park of the visitor center and she's still wearing her hard hat, safety glasses and high visibility jacket. :palm:
Them American car parks must be damn dangerous places!
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Route 66 goes thru the dessert at many stretches (I'm not 100% on that, I'm no master in the US infrastructure), wouldn't it be better to build a quality solar array with the same amount of m² in the dessert, and keep all the converters, monitoring and other supporting systems in one place. Easier for everyone that way.
We already have multiple, huge solar plants in the desert right now with more construction and expansion planned. It's what any intelligent person who could read an insolation map would do. Many banks and investment firms will readily finance these projects.
No one - besides governments - will finance solar roads.
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You've got to love the Health and Safety culture in the USA. There's the woman from the Highways Department being interviewed in the car park of the visitor center and she's still wearing her hard hat, safety glasses and high visibility jacket. :palm:
Them American car parks must be damn dangerous places!
Apparently British train crossings are as well!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpP7gMPzC78
Think! Always wear a High Visibility Jacket!
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No one - besides governments - will finance solar roads.
And a gullible technically illiterate public
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and any naysayers (yes Dave, I mean you) will be labeled as bad people payed by the tarmac industry...
I can vouch for that!
Solar Roadways would have to be the topic with by far the most hate mail.
Religion, meh.
Free energy, kinda meh.
PIC vs Atmel, getting there.
Batteriser, tolerable amount.
But dare question the viability of Solar Roadways, there will be hell to pay!
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The irony of solar roadways is that it "solves" one of the the last, major problems of solar - "balance of plant" costs - by making the balance of plant costs as high as possible.
None of the idiots and film flam artists pushing these schemes has done or could produce a proper proforma. They'd get thrown out of any energy investment firm, face first with extreme prejudice.
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Religion, meh.
Free energy, kinda meh.
PIC vs Atmel, getting there.
Batteriser, tolerable amount.
But dare question the viability of Solar Roadways, there will be hell to pay!
Never would have thought peoples buy in on roadways would have been that much higher than batteriser. Interesting.
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Where is the crowfunding option coming from, in a publicly funded institution as I guess the DoT?
Was it the dept. that didn't feel OK to spend public money on that project to ask for it, or the solar roadways proposers that wanted to play more PR?
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Never would have thought peoples buy in on roadways would have been that much higher than batteriser. Interesting.
Yep. Bigger general audience and more compelling idea that kicks all the warm fuzzy boxes.
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Never would have thought peoples buy in on roadways would have been that much higher than batteriser. Interesting.
Nah. Hardly anybody is interested in Batteriser out in the real world.
Solar roadways? The hippies are busy reposting it all over the 'Net.
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Dave, I am in utter disbelief as well regarding this entire Solar Roadways fiasco. You can argue and argue until you are blue in the face... there will still be people and government bureaucrats pushing money on this joke of a project. I am happy that you have time and dedication to debunk this (along with others like Thunderf00t), because at this point I would have given up. :palm:
The world is so full of stupidity, this is just a small sample. And crowd-funding is a catalyst for stupidity to get popularity and money. I won't go into American politics but you surely must see the antics going on even with the upcoming election. It seems like education, especially scientific, is not valued or respected. Government departments have certain budgets, which they must spend money on... I am sure certain people who know the right people or have promised things will get priority funding. There are lobby groups that bend the arms of politicians all the time. Money talks more than intelligence.
I have no problem with stupid people giving them money through crowd-funding. I am disgusted however by how government is abusing people's hard-earned money that they receive from taxes.
One U.S. example that I learned of recently involves research into gun violence by the CDC. The CDC (Center for Disease Control) in the USA studies traffic accidents, disease epidemiology, and many other areas that have to do with health and injury due to various things. One area they effectively BANNED (indirectly, read the link below) was research into gun violence and publishing statistics on that. Why? Because the powerful gun lobby in the USA prohibited any funding to CDC to be used for anything that would possibly advocate gun control.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickey_Amendment_(1996) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickey_Amendment_(1996))
So, my point is, if Scientific Inquiry into one of the most dangerous elements of USA society is being MUTED by the gun lobby who blocked funding to the CDC on even simply researching this major injury-causing element in America, should we really be surprised about the opposite effect with the attention Solar Roadways is getting? And can you even guess how many more $MILLION$ of tax dollars are being wasted on other complete garbage across the entire country, on everything from $10 pencils to who knows what other contracts/bids on you name it? Then again, it's "trickle back" economy where the government spending is supposed to be good for us.
I am sure some small regional players are profiting nicely from this government funding and since taxpayers are footing the bill, the politicians and companies involved couldn't care less. There is no accountability whether it works or not. They trickle money into a small town and get a bunch of people employed, maybe construction union who have to dig up the sidewalk and put in the roadway get money, the local economy is "stimulated" and everyone pays a bit of tax in the end and the government gets it back.
Anyways, thank you for continuing to make these videos and increase the awareness of the SCIENTIFIC INCREDULITY of the Solar Roadways. Aside from all the politics, at the end of the day your presentation shows how the PHYSICS and MATH don't add up. Now if someone will actually listen and stop wasting money on this. :-DD
EDIT:
I had to add one more thing... I am happy to see it is just a small sidewalk they are doing and not going to tear up an actual road and cause accidents and a lot more money costs. The sidewalk, even as bad an idea as that may also be, at least saves a ton of money and should theoretically be safer for pedestrians, will have durability and easier to maintain. Also, they can collect real-world data and hopefully publish it for everyone to see how silly an idea it is.
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They did discover a new theory for why solar panels at an angle behave differently to those that are flat, on overcast days.
As can be seen from the data collected so far, the flat panels generate more energy than the tilted panels during overcast days. We believe this is because the photons are scattered on overcast days, and during such times, it is easier for them to land on a flat surface than one which is angled.
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They did discover a new theory for why solar panels at an angle behave differently to those that are flat, on overcast days.
No, they didn't. It's been known forever, it's called diffuse insolation.
http://www.ftexploring.com/solar-energy/direct-and-diffuse-radiation.htm (http://www.ftexploring.com/solar-energy/direct-and-diffuse-radiation.htm)
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No - their theory is to do with the way that photons "land"
"it is easier for them to land on a flat surface than one which is angled."
(which begs the question, what happens to the photons that can't land on the first attempt?)
Your link is more... conventional? It's a shame that they didn't start with a bit of maths.
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You've got to love the Health and Safety culture in the USA. There's the woman from the Highways Department being interviewed in the car park of the visitor center and she's still wearing her hard hat, safety glasses and high visibility jacket. :palm:
Them American car parks must be damn dangerous places!
Have you been in a rest stop on an American highway? The entire crew involved in that interview are borderline insane to stand on the roadway to do that - idiots come screaming in to the parking areas still going 70-80mph like they are still out on the highway. And for those already parked, well, very few Americans can back up a small car let alone a giant SUV unless it has all sorts of radar and video gadgetry. I know this because my government tells me so. 😀
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You've got to love the Health and Safety culture in the USA. There's the woman from the Highways Department being interviewed in the car park of the visitor center and she's still wearing her hard hat, safety glasses and high visibility jacket. :palm:
Generally when you see people in hi-vis on TV, it is to send a signal. "I am doing Real Work(tm), not just sitting at a desk all day." This got picked up by politicians (in the UK at least) who liked to don hard hats and hi-vis and go out among Real People(tm) in the workplace to announce their budget cuts. Of course they still wear their suits under the hi-vis jacket.
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Solar roadways seem to be a solution to only one problem, the cost of real estate. They help this problem by converting a single usage land to multiple uses. So why not up the ante. Solve even more problems. Put the solar cells on a roof over the road. Now you eliminate the hazards of driving in foul weather. No more icy roads. No more slippery roads in the rain.
Hard to do a value analysis on the benefits, but it doesn't require making solar cells into a viable paving material.
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Solar roadways seem to be a solution to only one problem, the cost of real estate. They help this problem by converting a single usage land to multiple uses. So why not up the ante. Solve even more problems. Put the solar cells on a roof over the road. Now you eliminate the hazards of driving in foul weather. No more icy roads. No more slippery roads in the rain.
Actually this is being done. See:
http://www.treehugger.com/bikes/bike-lane-down-center-korean-highway-covered-solar-panels.html (http://www.treehugger.com/bikes/bike-lane-down-center-korean-highway-covered-solar-panels.html)
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/real_estate/publications/alternative_uses_of_highway_right-of-way/rep03.cfm (http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/real_estate/publications/alternative_uses_of_highway_right-of-way/rep03.cfm)
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... and somewhere else on this forum, I've even offered a concept that could be retro-fitted to existing roads.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-850-french-wattway-solar-roadways-bullshit/?action=dlattach;attach=201326;image)
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That looks like it would get murdered by snow fall and wind, and drifts could also fall on cars from the edges, but yeah if built stronger than that and on smaller normal sized highways so it covers the whole road, it would be the best way to go about it. Build OVER the road, not make it THE road. The problem with any government sponsored green energy projects though is that they tend to cost the tax payers way too much, and then the extra power is sold off for dirt cheap so the tax payers don't actually see a benefit, only the government. But that's not even a technical problem that's just a political one.
Really I still say the best place for solar is within private properties, used by said properties. On top of flat buildings, on large landscapes, houses, etc. I'd love to look into solar myself just hard to justify as I don't have much room on my property and we don't get much sun. In summer we get enough sun though so it would probably help run central A/C but in winter we get like maybe 8 hours of sun, maybe 4 hours usable.
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I did appreciate the wind loading issue for my idea .... but we don't think about snowfall in Australia - unless you plan a trip to the snowfields in winter.
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... and somewhere else on this forum, I've even offered a concept that could be retro-fitted to existing roads.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-850-french-wattway-solar-roadways-bullshit/?action=dlattach;attach=201326;image)
There are already good concepts, that look pretty stable (and pretty as well)
http://www.archdaily.com/88827/solar-serpents-in-paradise-mans-tham (http://www.archdaily.com/88827/solar-serpents-in-paradise-mans-tham)
(http://images.adsttc.com/media/images/55f7/00c5/adbc/011a/0500/0319/slideshow/solar-serpent-interior.jpg?1442250917)
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Solar roadways seem to be a solution to only one problem, the cost of real estate.
And it's a silly solution to the real estate problem. The reality is that the price of dirt is usually a minor cost in siting a power plan, solar or otherwise. The big problems are the planning and permitting processes, which are extensive, expensive, and have a high degree of risk.
I cannot see a bank or private equity ever financing a solar road - at least not an honest one that isn't skimming the project in the sly.
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I cannot see a bank or private equity ever financing a solar road - at least not an honest one that isn't skimming the project in the sly.
A honest bank. Hah, that would be a revolutionary invention! :-DD
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I cannot see a bank or private equity ever financing a solar road - at least not an honest one that isn't skimming the project in the sly.
A honest bank. Hah, that would be a revolutionary invention! :-DD
True. The investors I deal with give a company tens of millions, in exchange for a paid seat on the startup company's own board of directors. It's a great way to collect two paychecks from the same employer. :--
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Solar roadways seem to be a solution to only one problem, the cost of real estate.
And it's a silly solution to the real estate problem. The reality is that the price of dirt is usually a minor cost in siting a power plan, solar or otherwise. The big problems are the planning and permitting processes, which are extensive, expensive, and have a high degree of risk.
I cannot see a bank or private equity ever financing a solar road - at least not an honest one that isn't skimming the project in the sly.
I agree with you with one possible exception. Roadways do represent one of the largest single owner pieces of real estate that is relatively near or connected with population centers and the existing power grid. There is the possibility of doing the planning and permitting once, and because of the politics involved, with someone else footing the bill. If this were to occur it might even attract private investment.
As a taxpayer I don't have meaningful control over how public money is spent. I would however rather see it spent on solar roofs than on solar road tiles. One of those two options has much lower chances of any good coming out of than the other. That isn't a claim that either is a good idea, just an opportunity to lose more slowly.
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As a taxpayer I don't have meaningful control over how public money is spent. I would however rather see it spent on solar roofs than on solar road tiles. One of those two options has much lower chances of any good coming out of than the other. That isn't a claim that either is a good idea, just an opportunity to lose more slowly.
You could write an article for a newspaper and compare both ideas, write to your political representative or become a politician yourself.
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As a taxpayer I don't have meaningful control over how public money is spent. I would however rather see it spent on solar roofs than on solar road tiles. One of those two options has much lower chances of any good coming out of than the other. That isn't a claim that either is a good idea, just an opportunity to lose more slowly.
You could write an article for a newspaper and compare both ideas, write to your political representative or become a politician yourself.
I have done one and two. Not interested in three. I have pissed in the ocean, and had comparable effect to one and two.
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So this popped up in my Facebook feed - so I felt compelled to comment. I also linked some of the YT videos.
I was ridiculed to no end by otherwise smart people for speaking against such an amazing discovery. That is how they raised so much money. The crazy people look smart and innovative while the smart people calling the bluff are made to look like lunatics.
I am going to start a crowd funding campaign - I think I just cured cancer.