Author Topic: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply  (Read 26827 times)

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Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2016, 09:41:57 am »
!MAJOR WARNING!
What Dave shows here is really dangerous! Never ever connect a battery to a generic power supply without a series diode! If something goes wrong in the power supply excessive currents may flow back into the power supply. Worse, some power supplies have a crow-bar (thyristor) across their output which gets activated in case of an error (overheating for example) and short the battery. I've seen the damage it can do first hand.
The voltage across the series diode can be compensated by setting the voltage a bit higher but don't overdo it. There is not much extra charge going into the battery near the maximum charging voltage anyway.

Also: when using Lithium batteries always use a UN38 certified pack with an integrated protection circuit against overcharge, undervoltage and current limits.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 09:51:04 am by nctnico »
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Offline ez24

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2016, 10:10:01 am »
!MAJOR WARNING!


Don't worry it is a secret video  :-DD
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Offline rob77

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2016, 11:42:20 am »
ps - I would like someone to explain to me why 18650 batteries cannot be used for H bombs.  After all lithium is used for H bombs.

i assume a specific isotope of lithium is needed for that doomsday device ;) and actually there is not much lithium in metallic form in those 18650 batteries, lithium is present there in a form of salt (it's the electrolyte).
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2016, 11:58:44 am »
Ok, if you are desperate you can use your power supply to charge a LiPo battery, but I prefer my iMAX lipo balance charger.

Of course, I wasn't saying otherwise. The whole point of the video was that I needed to charge an 18650 on the spot and I didn't have a charger.
 
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Offline Scottjd

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2016, 12:01:02 pm »
Ok, it's better if I make some research before I try to charge them...
Yes, more research is required. NiMh batteries charge differently from what Dave shows.
I don't know if I would even trust these. To my knowledge some of the best NiMh batteries are eneloops from Panasonic and the highest capacity is about 2100mA. Since these advertise 5300mA I'm sure that's not true. Even half of this would be 2650 and I don't know any NiMh battery that does real capacity of 2650 for that size battery. So even if they were adding up the two batteries together for marketing on the package it's still probably a lie.
If your Sony charger is a NiMh battery charger and denies them, it might be doing that for safety reasons when the charger checks the battery. Some chargers will check the internal resistance of the cell, if it's high then it will not charge them. Or if they are currently over the max voltage it won't charge them. Also if the battery voltage is to low it might not charge them. Since NiMh have a natural storage drain the batteries might be old and have fallen below a safe voltage for a good charger to charge the batteries.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2016, 12:04:20 pm »
Ok, it's better if I make some research before I try to charge them...
Yes, more research is required. NiMh batteries charge differently from what Dave shows.

 

Offline retrolefty

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #56 on: September 03, 2016, 12:05:54 pm »
!MAJOR WARNING!
What Dave shows here is really dangerous! Never ever connect a battery to a generic power supply without a series diode! If something goes wrong in the power supply excessive currents may flow back into the power supply. Worse, some power supplies have a crow-bar (thyristor) across their output which gets activated in case of an error (overheating for example) and short the battery. I've seen the damage it can do first hand.
The voltage across the series diode can be compensated by setting the voltage a bit higher but don't overdo it. There is not much extra charge going into the battery near the maximum charging voltage anyway.

Also: when using Lithium batteries always use a UN38 certified pack with an integrated protection circuit against overcharge, undervoltage and current limits.

 Always, Never. Typical EU type thinking.  8)
 

Offline tatus1969

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2016, 02:46:24 pm »
!MAJOR WARNING!
What Dave shows here is really dangerous! Never ever connect a battery to a generic power supply without a series diode! If something goes wrong in the power supply excessive currents may flow back into the power supply. Worse, some power supplies have a crow-bar (thyristor) across their output which gets activated in case of an error (overheating for example) and short the battery. I've seen the damage it can do first hand.
The voltage across the series diode can be compensated by setting the voltage a bit higher but don't overdo it. There is not much extra charge going into the battery near the maximum charging voltage anyway.

Also: when using Lithium batteries always use a UN38 certified pack with an integrated protection circuit against overcharge, undervoltage and current limits.

 Always, Never. Typical EU type thinking.  8)
Is it typical US type thinking to sort people into boxes? And am I an error because I don't follow these concerns?
We Are The Watt - Resistance Is Futile!
 

Offline hedley

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2016, 03:05:22 pm »
Thanks - your fundamentals Friday and videos like this where you walk through something practical and useful referring to and explaining datasheets are excellent And what got me hooked on eevblog.
 

Offline Chipguy

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #59 on: September 03, 2016, 03:56:34 pm »
!MAJOR WARNING!
What Dave shows here is really dangerous! ....

!EASY SOLUTION!

Hello Major Warning and hello Geneal Purpose,
My name is Easy Solution and I would like to offer you one.

Yes some power supplies that can also sink current could ruin your day when you don't set them to 4.200V.
If they are constructed good then they just blow a fuse or go into overcurrent safety mode. If they are crap they could even blow.

Here is an example of a power supply that can not sink current and is safe to use for Lithium-Ion batteries.



Here is an example of a power supply that can sink current. It would be a bad idea to set it to anything less than the current battery voltage.



That series is called "ZUP", short for "ZERO UP". It definetly can sink current.
Very useful for supporting and testing the breaking/recuperation function in BLDC motor controllers as they would charge the battery when spinning down a motor.

Solution:
Connect a friggin fuse in series to the battery. I used a poyfuse, rated 2.6 Amps and it did fine!
Where is that smoke coming from?
 

Online FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #60 on: September 03, 2016, 04:17:31 pm »
Also: when using Lithium batteries always use a UN38 certified pack with an integrated protection circuit against overcharge, undervoltage and current limits.
Do you mean this test manual? Looks like it describes some testing procedures to ensure that the batteries are safe to be shipped by plane, like low air pressure. Interestingly, I guess nearly all bigger LiPo batteries used for RC hobby will fail, because this happens for a big LiPo if you short it after some seconds (requirement 38.3.4.5 of UN38 says it should survive a short circuit for one hour) :



(note: don't try to extinguish a LiPo battery fire with water, better have a bucket of sand available when doing such tests, and when charging)

I was thinking such a protection circuit would increase the price a lot, because e.g. for copters you need very high peak currents like 100 A for a fraction of a second. But this FET has half a milliohm Rdson and allows 100 A continuous current (with this low Rdson it would only get slightly warm at this current) and costs 2 dollars. In combination with some other ICs and a more difficult construction, it might increase the price by maybe 30% for a typical 2 Ah / 35C LiPo ("C" is RC-speak and doesn't mean Columb, but the discharge factor, so 70 A continuous current is allowed). I would pay this for the extra safety.
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
 

Offline Scottjd

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #61 on: September 03, 2016, 04:20:04 pm »
!MAJOR WARNING!
What Dave shows here is really dangerous! Never ever connect a battery to a generic power supply without a series diode! If something goes wrong in the power supply excessive currents may flow back into the power supply. Worse, some power supplies have a crow-bar (thyristor) across their output which gets activated in case of an error (overheating for example) and short the battery. I've seen the damage it can do first hand.
The voltage across the series diode can be compensated by setting the voltage a bit higher but don't overdo it. There is not much extra charge going into the battery near the maximum charging voltage anyway.

Also: when using Lithium batteries always use a UN38 certified pack with an integrated protection circuit against overcharge, undervoltage and current limits.

 Always, Never. Typical EU type thinking.  8)
Is it typical US type thinking to sort people into boxes? And am I an error because I don't follow these concerns?

I think it's typical everywhere thinking to classify/group people together for a majority of people.
When I was looking into using the bench supply to charge batteries I looked up some documents on rigols website and found this document for the DP800 series and reconditions on charging a battery.
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-02f8/1/-/-/l-befa/l-befa:4b5/DP800%20DP1000%20Active%20Loads.pdf
Please be sure to check out my YouTube channel and subscribe if you like the videos. https://www.youtube.com/c/GadgetReviewVideos

By people subscribing and giving thumbs up I know what I am doing is still wanted and adding value, then will continue to release new videos. Thank you for your support.
 

Offline HKJ

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #62 on: September 03, 2016, 04:32:31 pm »
(note: don't try to extinguish a LiPo battery fire with water, better have a bucket of sand available when doing such tests, and when charging)

Better tell the airlines about that, they a taught to use water:

Usual it is much easier to get a real LiIon charger instead of using a power supply and they start pretty cheap. For more special applications power supplies are fine.

To see charge/discharge curves from many chargers and batteries check here: http://www.lygte-info.dk/info/indexBatteriesAndChargers%20UK.html

PS: Many chargers terminate NiMH charge on voltage, a bit more about NiMH charging here: http://lygte-info.dk/info/batteryChargingNiMH%20UK.html
 

Offline Monittosan

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #63 on: September 03, 2016, 04:56:40 pm »
Thanks dave! Was charging a few 18650 cells not long ago lol.

For those of us with a power supply that can sink current can you show us how to make a discharge curve graph? or even just how to record the capacity. I know the BK Precision DC Load can do this but would prefer to use one of the many Agilent supply's lying around.

 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #64 on: September 03, 2016, 05:13:13 pm »


For some reason I like the look of that PSU
 

Offline ez24

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #65 on: September 03, 2016, 05:53:06 pm »
To see charge/discharge curves from many chargers and batteries check here: http://www.lygte-info.dk/info/indexBatteriesAndChargers%20UK.html
Thanks HKJ  been waiting for this link  :-+
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Offline Faith

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #66 on: September 03, 2016, 06:04:35 pm »


For some reason I like the look of that PSU

There's definitely something to admire about having a minimalist purpose-built appliance :D

I really like how there are arrows between the numbers presumably for easy fine adjustment of the voltage and current.

On a power supply especially the less buttons and the cleaner the readouts of values the better.

Doing a quick search online doesn't yield many results however. Going to look into this a little further. Have actually been shopping for a new bench-top PSU.

<3 ~Faith~
 

Offline HKJ

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #67 on: September 03, 2016, 06:10:58 pm »
On a power supply especially the less buttons and the cleaner the readouts of values the better.

I will not agree to that, I prefer to have a numeric keyboard and a rotary encoder, this way I can either key the voltage/current in or use the encoder to adjust it. This makes this close to ideal for me:


But the ELV power supply has a good look.
 

Offline Faith

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #68 on: September 03, 2016, 06:16:15 pm »
I will not agree to that, I prefer to have a numeric keyboard and a rotary encoder, this way I can either key the voltage/current in or use the encoder to adjust it. This makes this close to ideal for me:

Different habits and preferences I guess >,<"... I've always preferred to dial numbers in via a knob. Guess it kinda came along with the classic Agilent E3610A.
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Offline tatus1969

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #69 on: September 03, 2016, 06:32:09 pm »
I think it's typical everywhere thinking to classify/group people together for a majority of people.
Sure, but I wanted to show the mirror here. And it doesn't make it right because many do it.
We Are The Watt - Resistance Is Futile!
 

Offline Chipguy

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #70 on: September 03, 2016, 06:34:20 pm »


For some reason I like the look of that PSU

There's definitely something to admire about having a minimalist purpose-built appliance :D
I really like how there are arrows between the numbers presumably for easy fine adjustment of the voltage and current.
On a power supply especially the less buttons and the cleaner the readouts of values the better.

Doing a quick search online doesn't yield many results however. Going to look into this a little further. Have actually been shopping for a new bench-top PSU.

That is an obsolete model.
I got one on the bench at work. When I bought it many years ago I also went by the looks and practicality of it.
And it is really precise, that display is not for shows.

However the quality of some parts is not very good, the rotary encoder is failing for the second time now (ALPS).
The electrical design is partially bad. When it comes from the factory it only has a built-in two wire mains cable.
Since it uses a pretty good toroidial transformer the capacitive coupling between mains and secondary is very high, resulting in a high leakage current. That is just bad design. It blew up some CMOS stuff because when I was touching it with the ESD strip on I mananged to get some 80V AC on a MOSFET gate. Even with 1M (me connected to the strip) enough to blow it up.

So I had to modify it. I put an IEC320 socket into the backplate and connected the internal GND to earth using a X2 capacitor.
Eversince the leakage current is mostly going trough that capacitor, only some <5V remain when measured with 1M Ohm impedance.

That's not the first time ELV made bad power supplies.
The model before that had another design failure:
There are electrolytic capacitors for the power supply part and one for the control part.
If the one for the control part starts loosing capacity due to aging the power supply would supply >30V to your circuit when you switch it off, because the cap for the inerts discharges faster than the ones for the PSU part.
Where is that smoke coming from?
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2016, 06:57:35 pm »
there is not much lithium in metallic form in those 18650 batteries, lithium is present there in a form of salt (it's the electrolyte).

If you want some lithium metal you can buy an ordinary lithium battery. There's a roll of lithium foil inside.

(And yes, you can buy them in airport shops after you pass security)

 

Offline vlad777

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #72 on: September 03, 2016, 09:17:02 pm »
Hi, Dave's video reminded me of a gadget to tear down.

I took this battery , but I dont know if the circuit is protection or charging circuit ?

The small SOT23-5 says 2420 , it could be LM3620 charger.

The larger package says S8209 and seems to be just a pair of mosfets.

What could be the green wire?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 09:22:27 pm by vlad777 »
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Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #73 on: September 03, 2016, 10:03:03 pm »
What could be the green wire?

Battery charger circuits have inputs and outputs. I suspect that's an output wire (where you connect the load).
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 10:23:13 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline kalleboo

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Re: EEVblog #919 - How To Charge Li-Ion/LiPo Batteries With A Power Supply
« Reply #74 on: September 03, 2016, 10:09:05 pm »
No need to be embarrassed by those Sony, Panasonic, Samsung or LG cells you use any more. Make any battery an UltraFireTM, just think of the capacity gains alone!
There's never been a more suitable brand name
 


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