Author Topic: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!  (Read 41781 times)

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Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #100 on: September 11, 2016, 02:43:50 pm »
The whole idea with a number, is that it's more a general level.
Like I said before (and so far nobody replied to it), now with letters it only suits electronics, which I think is far to limited and completely useless.
With numbers/a scale you can refer to a certain level and therefore it's usable in other fields.
And I am sorry, but science is all about 'first glance'. We all try to put things in numbers that are understandable.
THD, PSSR, CMRR, max load, tolerance, the use of standard deviation, 'RMS' voltage/power, peak voltage/power are all 'first glance numbers'.
Nobody reads the whole document to understand certain conclusions, you first skim over results and numbers to see if it's usable.
That's exactly what this is about. People wanna skim OSHW projects if they are usable.

Exactly, and that is precisely what my system allows that a number or level based system does not.
Try using a level based system with say the Creative Commons, it doesn't work. Why? Because one of the things missing could be a show-stopper for you.
For example, if you are after an OSHW design you can use commercially, and a project was "level 4 out of 5" or whatever, what does that mean? It doesn't convey any useful information to you.
With 7 different items i have proposed relating to a hardware design (and I haven't heard anyone say it's too many or too few yet) the permutations are just too many in order to have a usable level based numbering system.
In fact, it already has that, just count up the number of gears (or letters) that are used. 4 letters = 4/7 "openness" if you really want.
Ok, but how do you apply letters to something like mechanics and not only electronics?
What if electronics, mechanics AND aesthetics are involved?


I still prefer to see how open a certain project is. Like what i suggested in my post in the other topic.
With a good system that directly covers the content, and therefore it does the same (plus more!) than just using letters.
You automatically know with a certain rating is about and if it's usable and what is usable.
Scores and numbers can being put in perspective, letters not.
"If you can't explain it simply (or at all), you don't understand it well enough." A. Einstein

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Offline doobedoobedo

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #101 on: September 11, 2016, 05:03:03 pm »
Those who make a legitimate effort should indeed be rewarded, but unless they comply with the OSHW definition it can't be with the OSHW logo. They need a completely different logo for 'enhanced documentation', they can't just steal or subvert the OSHW logo.

But you don't seem to realise that the problem already exists!
It's gotten so bad that the OSHW association has had to effectively abandon the OSHW logo because it was becoming meaningless because everyone was misusing it, so they went and trademarked their own new symbol.
I say let them do that and lets sort of the problem with the existing OSHW symbol by using my proposal.

I'm well aware the problem already exists, otherwise the topic wouldn't have come up.

However I believe it's naive to think that companies or individuals who are prepared to steal a logo they're not entitled to would respond positively to legitimisation of the theft, by giving them a plethora of other logos to use. This situation arose because the OSHW association don't have the money to defend their logo, and unless that changes the less scrupulous will continue to use whatever they think will make them the most money.
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #102 on: September 11, 2016, 06:51:20 pm »
Those people wouldn't have the money to defend their logo anyway, OSHW or not.
"If you can't explain it simply (or at all), you don't understand it well enough." A. Einstein

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Offline poorchava

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #103 on: September 11, 2016, 07:23:43 pm »
Nobody gives a damn about open source hardware or software, or the licenses coming along with those. People will take the design files and do as they please with no regard to license. If you don't have resources to pursue this in court,  you may have all the copyright in the world -  nobody gives a shit unless you have resources to defend it. That how the world works...

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Offline matthewbadeau

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #104 on: September 11, 2016, 11:03:03 pm »
Hi All,
Sorry about the newbie mistake. I actually had made another forum post with my own logo generator but I would prefer to move all of that discussion to this thread. Here's a link to my take on the logo generator: https://matthewbadeau.github.io/OSHW-Logo-Autogen/

The old thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/oshw-logo-generator/
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #105 on: September 12, 2016, 03:02:14 am »
Ok, but how do you apply letters to something like mechanics and not only electronics?

There is an M in the proposal for a reason, it stands for Mechanical.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #106 on: September 12, 2016, 03:03:37 am »
I'm well aware the problem already exists, otherwise the topic wouldn't have come up.

Ok, so what's your solution to the problem?
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #107 on: September 12, 2016, 05:00:59 am »
Ok, but how do you apply letters to something like mechanics and not only electronics?

There is an M in the proposal for a reason, it stands for Mechanical.
Just a M is not enough of course.
Most mechincal projects have a lot of steps, blueprints, drawings etc.
Some projects also contain even software.
(in my opinion firmware for ucontroller for example)
"If you can't explain it simply (or at all), you don't understand it well enough." A. Einstein

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #108 on: September 12, 2016, 05:23:37 am »
Ok, but how do you apply letters to something like mechanics and not only electronics?
There is an M in the proposal for a reason, it stands for Mechanical.
Just a M is not enough of course.

It's good enough.
I've had no other people say my suggested categories aren't enough.

What's your suggestion? How many more letters do you want?
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #109 on: September 12, 2016, 07:58:53 am »
So just by the fact that other people don't say anything about it, means it's good enough???
That's a new way of working to me.
(don't think my boss and clients would apreciate that approach)

I'm thinking of suggestions, but the least I can tell you that for now a lot of people will be stuck.
The reason why I am pointing it out, is because it's an issue.
"If you can't explain it simply (or at all), you don't understand it well enough." A. Einstein

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Offline doobedoobedo

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #110 on: September 12, 2016, 10:28:47 am »
I'm well aware the problem already exists, otherwise the topic wouldn't have come up.

Ok, so what's your solution to the problem?

I'm not so sure there is one.

You're approaching the problem as an engineer, which is no bad thing, but the people who have misappropriated the logo aren't acting as engineers, they're acting as marketers. Whatever you do they can't be trusted to stick to rules if they see gain from breaking them without consequences.

Maybe I'm just too cynical.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #111 on: September 12, 2016, 10:48:29 am »
I'm not so sure there is one.

The OSHW association disagree, as would most closely involved in the OSHW industry.

Quote
You're approaching the problem as an engineer, which is no bad thing, but the people who have misappropriated the logo aren't acting as engineers, they're acting as marketers. Whatever you do they can't be trusted to stick to rules if they see gain from breaking them without consequences.
Maybe I'm just too cynical.

Yep. You are assuming that all people who use the logo inappropriately are doing so for marketing reasons. This is demonstrably untrue.
And even for those that are, my solution provides a better way for the to so so legitimately.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #112 on: September 12, 2016, 10:53:12 am »
So just by the fact that other people don't say anything about it, means it's good enough???
That's a new way of working to me.
(don't think my boss and clients would apreciate that approach)

That's how these essentially crowd sourced and crowd legitimised ideas generally work.
If my categories were wildly wrong (either too many, too few, or inappropriate) then believe me, people would be jumping up and down about it.
So obviously my categories are close enough to be workable.

Quote
I'm thinking of suggestions, but the least I can tell you that for now a lot of people will be stuck.
The reason why I am pointing it out, is because it's an issue.

Then please explain in detail.
Who is going to be stuck?
Why isn't anyone else pointing out the same problem you think there is?
Even if some people are "stuck", no matter how many more categories you make, you won't be able to cover every possible scenario. It's going to be diminishing returns.

There are hundreds of people telling me my font is wrong etc, it need to look this way and that way etc, or the entire concept is wrong/won't work etc, but I currently count only one person who has said the categories don't cut the mustard.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 10:54:52 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline klh_js

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #113 on: September 12, 2016, 11:36:31 am »
Hi All,
Sorry about the newbie mistake. I actually had made another forum post with my own logo generator but I would prefer to move all of that discussion to this thread. Here's a link to my take on the logo generator: https://matthewbadeau.github.io/OSHW-Logo-Autogen/

The old thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/oshw-logo-generator/

Remove parts of my code from oshwlogo.js or switch the license to GNU GPLv3 (the one I used).

I was a bit overwhelmed at work, I'll try to publish a new version today with text under logo option.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #114 on: September 12, 2016, 12:34:42 pm »
There are hundreds of people telling me my font is wrong etc, it need to look this way and that way etc, or the entire concept is wrong/won't work etc

 :palm:

Unfortunately, that is always going to happen.  I've even thrown in a couple of thoughts ... but I realise they aren't really worth jumping up on a soapbox.

I support what Dave has presented.
 

Offline matthewbadeau

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #115 on: September 12, 2016, 02:11:38 pm »
Hi All,
Sorry about the newbie mistake. I actually had made another forum post with my own logo generator but I would prefer to move all of that discussion to this thread. Here's a link to my take on the logo generator: https://matthewbadeau.github.io/OSHW-Logo-Autogen/

The old thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/oshw-logo-generator/

Remove parts of my code from oshwlogo.js or switch the license to GNU GPLv3 (the one I used).

I was a bit overwhelmed at work, I'll try to publish a new version today with text under logo option.

Which parts? I didn't use your code actually, I used parts of https://github.com/derrickpelletier/react-download-svg which is MIT licensed.
I didn't even notice that you had posted your version until the day after you were complete. I was kind of dumb and didn't actually see this thread until I had posted my generator code up  :-[

If you're seeing parts of your code in mine, which branch on github are you looking at? If it's the gh-pages branch, that code is minified and autogenerated. If it's the master branch then you'll see that I didn't copy any of your code, even the font's different.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #116 on: September 12, 2016, 02:26:01 pm »
... truly OSHW ...

Therein lies the root of the current problem.
 

Offline kmel

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #117 on: September 12, 2016, 09:40:00 pm »
why using another font, like Arial Black? OSHW already picked a font.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 09:42:33 pm by kmel »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #118 on: September 12, 2016, 11:02:51 pm »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #119 on: September 12, 2016, 11:11:01 pm »
 

Offline apelly

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #120 on: September 13, 2016, 12:11:09 am »
why using another font, like Arial Black? OSHW already picked a font.
Cool.

What does the German one look like?

And what was "F" again?
I'd rather a Google clue, link, or some theory than "do this" (generally)
 

Offline apelly

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #121 on: September 13, 2016, 03:15:22 am »
:)
I'd rather a Google clue, link, or some theory than "do this" (generally)
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #122 on: September 13, 2016, 03:21:23 pm »
So just by the fact that other people don't say anything about it, means it's good enough???
That's a new way of working to me.
(don't think my boss and clients would apreciate that approach)

That's how these essentially crowd sourced and crowd legitimised ideas generally work.
If my categories were wildly wrong (either too many, too few, or inappropriate) then believe me, people would be jumping up and down about it.
So obviously my categories are close enough to be workable.

Quote
I'm thinking of suggestions, but the least I can tell you that for now a lot of people will be stuck.
The reason why I am pointing it out, is because it's an issue.

Then please explain in detail.
Who is going to be stuck?
Why isn't anyone else pointing out the same problem you think there is?
Even if some people are "stuck", no matter how many more categories you make, you won't be able to cover every possible scenario. It's going to be diminishing returns.

There are hundreds of people telling me my font is wrong etc, it need to look this way and that way etc, or the entire concept is wrong/won't work etc, but I currently count only one person who has said the categories don't cut the mustard.
I already gave multiple examples in the other topic. (would be nice if you could share that link/topic in the first post btw)
But just to give another example. Let's assume I am developing a bench power supply.
Including chassis, buttons, display, the whole thing.

So this project includes:
- Software (for interface, gui display, measurements)
- Electronics
- Mechanics (thermal mechanics, airflow, heatsink, fan, design chassis etc)
- Esthetics (the way the GUI looks like, logos, menu structure, design of the case etc).

First software, can be closed source or open source, and being made with open source tools or not, can have closed source plugins.
Second, electronics. Parts of the board can be shared, or completely. Can be drawn and in made in closed source or open source. BOM may be shared or not.
Third, mechanics. Maybe these files are made in Solid Works, thermal analyses is done in Mathlab or everything is done in CoCreate. BOM can be shared or not. Maybe CNC files are needed etc.
Last, esthetics. Design can be made in open source software or something like illustrator. Design files are maybe not shared or only shared for printing/showing or what's needed for CNC.

Conclusion, with the letters we are having now, there is absolutely no way I can use it at all!
So therefore it's extremely limited and in my opinion just not usable.
Especially if a project has a combination of open source and non-open source tools and programs.
Maybe someone can explain to me which letter I need to use if electronics BOM is shared, mechanics is not, and esthetics partly.
Plus firmware is shared, made in open source software, but contain closed source plugins.
Esthetics, which is part of the firmware, is not shared. So people can't change the menu structure and symbols.
Schematics of the electronics are shared, but the 'schematics' (= building instructions) of the case isn't.

The list goes on.

I am sorry, but for me it's just way to vague to put it all into 'CAD/Mechanical files'. A lot of things are interconnected.
Same for bill of materials or design documents.
Besides, it is very easy to mix up capital letters with small letters.

(BTW, in the logo generator the 'bottom of logo' option isn't completely working.


"If you can't explain it simply (or at all), you don't understand it well enough." A. Einstein

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Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #123 on: September 13, 2016, 03:52:11 pm »

Conclusion, with the letters we are having now, there is absolutely no way I can use it at all!
So therefore it's extremely limited and in my opinion just not usable.


So what do you think of the current situation, then?


I wouldn't be too worried about the suggested letters seeming to be limited ... they offer a far finer resolution.  There just has to be an adjustment in thinking, to allocate the project aspects being represented to the appropriate category letter.
 

Offline Smokey

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Re: EEVblog #921 - Open Source Hardware Problems Solved!
« Reply #124 on: September 14, 2016, 03:27:32 am »
hmm.. a whole 12 people posted comments on the oshwa forum...

At least one got it right....

http://www.oshwa.org/forums/topic/2-do-you-prefer-a-single-definition-of-openness-or-a-spectrum-of-options/#post-1974
makegeneve:
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