Author Topic: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?  (Read 37591 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Alexei.Polkhanov

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 683
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #75 on: November 02, 2016, 03:39:25 am »
Yes, completely true. The world is overpopulated. Ressources are not lasting. We need to reduce drastically the population, that is the "easiest" measure.

Which method do you have in mind to achieve this? Plague? War?

We, humans, will have to do something about overpopulation eventually, why not start now? I would hope that people that did not want to do anything about it, due to some stupid political or religious agendas, got eaten first when we end up on this planet like a bunch of hungry rats in a metal barrel.
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4363
  • Country: nl
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #76 on: November 02, 2016, 04:21:55 am »
So I am going to pile on with others and say that the primary market barrier for these is the interconnect problem.  If these have magic in this area it isn't obvious.

You could do it inductively.
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4363
  • Country: nl
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #77 on: November 02, 2016, 04:56:55 am »
One of the times humans experimented with overpopulation and resource depletion on an island they killed themselves, the earth is a large island.
 

Offline nuclearcat

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 82
  • Country: lb
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #78 on: November 02, 2016, 06:12:45 am »
And thats where Elon Musk "Mars colonization" step in.
Maybe worth to forgive all his mistakes and marketing nonsense, just because he is pushing civilization to right direction.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2254
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #79 on: November 02, 2016, 07:13:15 am »
Neat idea but every time I hear of this concept I can't help but think of the logistics of installing these.  When you setup solar you want each string to be equal number, when you have regular solar panels you might have like 4 or so in a string, so you can group them in groups of 4 in parallel and they'll physically be laid out so wiring them is fairly easy.   Basically you look at the whole roof as a blank slate and find the most effective way to place them.  There will be dead spaces or what not but you just look at covering the most you can.

With shingles, you NEED to cover the whole roof, including corners where you have to CUT them so they line up with the other side of roof (ex: the peak or the edges of a cottage style roof etc).  When you install shingles you start from the bottom and work your way up, and cut any as required.  Having to also think of the logistics of which ones are in series with which ones and making sure it's the right number etc... then combining the strings to thicker wires..  just sounds like a logistical nightmare.  And what do you do with the ones that you have to cut, these don't look like they're made of materials that are easy to cut, like standard asphalt shingles.  Even the ones that don't have the solar cells. 

Everyone keeps trying to revolutionize solar but standard setups with regular panels is still the best way imo.   For people who have big property having them on the ground is even better as you're not adding extra penetrations(giggity) to your roof and it also makes them easier to access for maintenance such as daily snow removal in winter. 
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4363
  • Country: nl
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #80 on: November 02, 2016, 08:20:23 am »
It wouldn't be too hard to integrate electronics which can combine power from rows of differing number of tiles automagically. Since inductive power transfer is the only reasonable way to transfer power between them you already need electronics any way.

The only raison d'etre of these things is to please home owner associations, hardly a mass market outside of the US.
 

Offline NANDBlog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4437
  • Country: nl
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #81 on: November 02, 2016, 12:38:35 pm »
It does not really matter how much it costs. Or how much extra effort it takes to make. Or how much the efficiency is. Just does not matter.

Regular solar panels work this way: You buy a house. You got extra money later, you buy a solar panel from your pocket money, so you save 50 bucks a month.

Solar rooftop works like this: You go around shopping for a newly built house. After all, you live in the US.  There are two houses next to each other. One is with solar roof, the other is without it. You can buy the one without it, you pay x to the bank. Or you buy the other one, and you pay x+10 to the bank, and save 50 a month. Or you put an "ugly" solar panel on your roof, but keep in mind, you are a not one of the cool people anymore.

Solar roof makes sense. You are not going to replace your roof, and install this. Construction companies will adopt, and sell it, because it makes sense, because that is what the people will want. You are not the customer, who has to make the decision. The construction company is. And for them, solar will make more sense.
 

Offline sibeen

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 226
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #82 on: November 02, 2016, 01:10:45 pm »
Construction companies will adopt, and sell it, because it makes sense, because that is what the people will want.

Construction companies have had many years to adopt this technology. They haven't. It puts up the price of construction; they ain't going to touch it with a bargepole.

Just because the Tesla name has been attached to this won't change that economics.
 

Offline StuUK

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 388
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #83 on: November 02, 2016, 01:28:29 pm »
Construction companies only adopt things that make the build cheaper (for them)/easier or are mandated by building codes....
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 01:58:49 pm by StuUK »
 

Online Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 9224
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #84 on: November 02, 2016, 03:23:30 pm »
I've often said building underground is one of the most energy efficient concepts.  Just put a solar freaking roadway over the top - and we're done!
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9974
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #85 on: November 02, 2016, 03:53:25 pm »
Construction companies only adopt things that make the build cheaper (for them)/easier or are mandated by building codes....

 :palm: If that was true then they'd only ever build windowless concrete bunkers.

Construction companies want to maximize profit, not to build the cheapest house possible. They'll happily add expensive things that increase the perceived value of a house.

Tesla (and Toyota) have already done this with their electric cars: Buying a Prius Or Tesla makes no sense economically, you're never going to recover the purchase cost in saved fuel. Those cars still sell by the bucketload. They sell more Teslas in Norway than all of Ford's models combined and Teslas cost over $100,000 in Norway.

Similarly iPhones, MacBooks, etc. At's much more about image than economics or the actual product.

If Tesla does a good sales this right then having a Tesla roof will be fashionable among rich people and they'll sell loads, there's no doubt about that.
 

Offline NANDBlog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4437
  • Country: nl
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #86 on: November 02, 2016, 04:01:47 pm »
Just because the Tesla name has been attached to this won't change that economics.
Tablet was introduced by Microsoft, with windows xp. Nobody cares.
Table introduced by Apple, with iOS. "revolutionary". We know the story.

There have been electric cars ~ hundred year ago. I've seen it in the museum. Now, tell me who made the electric car story a success?
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9974
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #87 on: November 02, 2016, 04:15:49 pm »
Just because the Tesla name has been attached to this won't change that economics.
Tablet was introduced by Microsoft, with windows xp. Nobody cares.

They even had the exact same name. Remember the "iPaq"? That was produced long before Apple decided to make anything pocketable.



And Microsoft still can't manage to sell their stuff today. There's (probably) nothing wrong with Microsoft tablets except they're not 'cool' enough for the hipsters.

The same goes for laptops. If you're prepared to pay $1500+ for a laptop then there's non-Apple laptops that make the Apple offerings look like pieces of junk. Apple laptops sell like hot cakes though. Go to any classroom and count how many Apple machines you see compared to all the others. Makes no sense, but there it is.  :-//

« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 05:20:55 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline cavac

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 14
  • Country: at
  • The Perl Geek
    • Cavac's Blog
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #88 on: November 02, 2016, 04:53:25 pm »
- Solar freaking FLOOR TILES!  Tile your entire house in solar, great for the bathroom/shower too!
- Solar freaking DRIVEWAYS!
- Solar freaking POOLS! Put solar panels at the bottom of your pool, after all it has a built in lens effect to magnify the solar radiation!  Hmm that might not be a terrible idea on first thought. I should patent that.

Ok, let's add a bunch of batterizers and make them work at 800% efficieny!!!

 :palm:
"I calculated the odds of this succeeding versus doing something incredibly stupid... then i went ahead anyway." (Crowe, MST2K)
 

Offline b_force

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1180
  • Country: 00
    • One World Concepts
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #89 on: November 02, 2016, 07:05:59 pm »
Yes, completely true. The world is overpopulated. Ressources are not lasting. We need to reduce drastically the population, that is the "easiest" measure.

Which method do you have in mind to achieve this? Plague? War?

We, humans, will have to do something about overpopulation eventually, why not start now? I would hope that people that did not want to do anything about it, due to some stupid political or religious agendas, got eaten first when we end up on this planet like a bunch of hungry rats in a metal barrel.
That IS exactly my point.
We can build solar roofs, super uber sustainable other resources and many more things.
All absolutely great and awesome from engineering, artistic and scientific point of views.
However, it's is very far from a proper argument to safe 'the planet' (aka, saving our own asses), because that's not gonna happen this way.
Next point is that we can safe a bit on energy here and there, if there are still a handful of big countries who consume and waste over 1/3 of the total amount, it's still not doing anything. |O
Big deal that some countries have to safe a few percent on freaking little plastic bags. Compared to the general waste of these other countries and factories it's absolutely microscopic.
"If you can't explain it simply (or at all), you don't understand it well enough." A. Einstein

http://www.oneworldconcepts.com/ | http://www.soundprojects.com
 

Offline aw_ful

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 1
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #90 on: November 02, 2016, 10:07:54 pm »
So many comments, on the pre-existence of solar roofing, on the efficiency of the tiles, of the issue with installation, that there better ways to capture energy by using water, of the issues of costs, that it is not fully green. The thing he announced is not related to any of those comments. What he announced is a fully integrated system that (mostly) becomes self-sustaining personal supply of energy.  It has nothing to do with low cost as he is appealing, like Tesla (for now), to deep pocketed people, and to whom aesthetics is a major concern. He is not concerned with tile efficiencies, because he has their mammoth roofs to work with. He is not concerned with material or installation costs because a premium roof already is expensive. What I hear is the ability to never waste time going to a gas station, using a car with less complexity and therefore better reliability that refills itself, making driving an almost inconsequential electrical cost that doesn't degrade the environment (as much), making solar broadly available to a multitude of home uses so that it becomes personally economically feasible, and maybe the ability to stop subsidizing electrical infrastructure and nuclear power plants for heavy users like heavy industry and commercial, and just maybe then reducing the human energy footprint on the earth. Ultimately, he closed the day/night/storage loop with these tiles AND Powerwall (not possible separately), making it economically possible, meaning maybe someday never having to attach or having to have a grid at all.
 

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2104
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #91 on: November 02, 2016, 11:42:08 pm »
Tesla (and Toyota) have already done this with their electric cars: Buying a Prius Or Tesla makes no sense economically, you're never going to recover the purchase cost in saved fuel. Those cars still sell by the bucketload. They sell more Teslas in Norway than all of Ford's models combined and Teslas cost over $100,000 in Norway.
The cost effectiveness of electric or hybrid cars varies wildly around the world, Norway has some of the worlds most expensive fuel (petrol/diesel) costs and cheap electricity. But to further convince the public to purchase plug in electric vehicles they also piled on huge monetary incentives:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_Norway
So its cheaper to own an electric car in that case and everyone is rushing to do so.

While in other markets the incremental cost of a Prius C over the Yaris its derived from is roughly the savings in fuel use over the lifespan of the vehicle, priced to match the market and not the obvious failing you suggest. They have their markets and uses, but they're not solutions for everyone worldwide.
 

Online NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5532
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #92 on: November 03, 2016, 03:07:32 am »
Electrical supply has multiple challenges.
1)Most of renewable energy are not stable in term of electricity generation. Exception - hydropower, it is plainly perfect. Solar has issues at cloudy weather, winter, night. Wind - depends.
(Battery storage of energy economics/longevity/environmental impact are terrible, molten salt for solar/hydro storage is much more promising)
2)Some supplies has drawbacks, for example some nuclear power cannot change output enough fast for fluctuating power consumption during the day. (not load following) Some are load following, but cannot compensate enough fast events such as "TV pickup".
This means you need some very quick "maneuvering" capacity, and if you don't have hydropower, this means thermal plants (gas/coal), just to supply enough energy to provide sufficient power.
It is serious problem, and very interesting indeed, i suggest read about TV pickup in wikipedia.
The underdeveloped (part of) the solution is to try to adapt demand to supply. The technology for it has been available and affordable for many years, there's just a lack of development and standards that keeps it from being widely deployed.

The "TV pickup" problem is becoming a problem of the past now that on demand content (Netflix, Youtube, etc.) is the norm.
Tesla (and Toyota) have already done this with their electric cars: Buying a Prius Or Tesla makes no sense economically, you're never going to recover the purchase cost in saved fuel.
While the current Teslas are indeed unlikely to pay back (that's not the point of owning one), good hybrids most certainly can. That's particularly true for those who drive a lot, especially commercial usage.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline b_force

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1180
  • Country: 00
    • One World Concepts
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #93 on: November 03, 2016, 08:31:33 am »
So many comments, on the pre-existence of solar roofing, on the efficiency of the tiles, of the issue with installation, that there better ways to capture energy by using water, of the issues of costs, that it is not fully green. The thing he announced is not related to any of those comments. What he announced is a fully integrated system that (mostly) becomes self-sustaining personal supply of energy.  It has nothing to do with low cost as he is appealing, like Tesla (for now), to deep pocketed people, and to whom aesthetics is a major concern. He is not concerned with tile efficiencies, because he has their mammoth roofs to work with. He is not concerned with material or installation costs because a premium roof already is expensive. What I hear is the ability to never waste time going to a gas station, using a car with less complexity and therefore better reliability that refills itself, making driving an almost inconsequential electrical cost that doesn't degrade the environment (as much), making solar broadly available to a multitude of home uses so that it becomes personally economically feasible, and maybe the ability to stop subsidizing electrical infrastructure and nuclear power plants for heavy users like heavy industry and commercial, and just maybe then reducing the human energy footprint on the earth. Ultimately, he closed the day/night/storage loop with these tiles AND Powerwall (not possible separately), making it economically possible, meaning maybe someday never having to attach or having to have a grid at all.
Tesla aims for a very niche market, yes.
Isn't that EXTREMELY obvious?

That's also the whole problem. Because they kind of pretend they have solved a world problem.

Even today there are still people who could never ever afford something like this.
In fact, they even struggle to survive on a daily basis. Do you think they even care about how they get their energy, from solar, wind-turbines or the filthiest way of burning something?
They are glad they have at least something.

If you look at the numbers, that is at least roughly 30% of the world population (if not (much) more)
 
"If you can't explain it simply (or at all), you don't understand it well enough." A. Einstein

http://www.oneworldconcepts.com/ | http://www.soundprojects.com
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9974
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #94 on: November 03, 2016, 08:53:07 am »
Isn't that EXTREMELY obvious?

Hopefully.

That's also the whole problem. Because they kind of pretend they have solved a world problem.

No they don't. They act like they're showing the first generation of a nice new product that they're proud of (rightly so - it's a beautiful product with some really good engineering underneath, some real hard work has gone into it).

How the press is reporting it? Well, that's the press for you. Look at the press Batteroo got even though they're a pair of suits with no working product.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2016, 09:24:11 am by Fungus »
 

Offline NANDBlog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4437
  • Country: nl
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #95 on: November 03, 2016, 09:21:37 am »
Tesla aims for a very niche market, yes.
Isn't that EXTREMELY obvious?

That's also the whole problem. Because they kind of pretend they have solved a world problem.

Even today there are still people who could never ever afford something like this.
Musk said, that the technology he is developing is for the mass market. But you cannot just enter the mass market, because that doesn't work. He is entering the top market, sell stuff, mature the technology, drives down the cost. After that you enter mass market. Take the Tesla model 3 for example. It is priced 35000 dollar, almost the same than the new price of the car I own. It is not a car for CEOs, not 70.000 like the mode s. It is not the roadster's 100.000 dollar price tag.
The business model seems to work. Probably in a decade, solar roof price will be brought down 1/3. Just let the technology mature. This is for the premium segment, the statement is more important than price or efficiency. This is the roadster. Wait for the S and the 3.
 

Offline zapta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6004
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #96 on: November 03, 2016, 01:57:40 pm »
I've often said building underground is one of the most energy efficient concepts.  Just put a solar freaking roadway over the top - and we're done!
The cost of the periscopes can be significant though.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline XynxNet

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 183
  • Country: de
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #97 on: November 03, 2016, 08:41:12 pm »
From a home owners perspective:
Will I get a replacement shingle in 20 years?
Good traditional shingles have a lifetime up to 80 years here.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2016, 08:46:19 pm by XynxNet »
 

Online Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 9224
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #98 on: November 04, 2016, 12:52:20 am »
I've often said building underground is one of the most energy efficient concepts.  Just put a solar freaking roadway over the top - and we're done!
The cost of the periscopes can be significant though.

I'd go for a WiFi Camera (with PTZ) up a pole, powered by a solar panel and battery.
 

Offline lpickup

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 92
  • Country: us
  • Uncle Bobby Dazzler
Re: EEVblog #938 - Tesla Solar Roofs - Are They Viable?
« Reply #99 on: November 04, 2016, 11:16:50 am »
From a home owners perspective:
Will I get a replacement shingle in 20 years?
Good traditional shingles have a lifetime up to 80 years here.

What type of shingles are "traditional" in your area?

Here, the standard is asphalt shingles that are labeled as "30 year", but you'd be lucky to get 20 out of them.  You can buy premium "40 year" shingles.  I have never heard of 80 years, so you must be talking about some kind of slate tile shingle or something like that?

At any rate, other than physical damage from micrometeorites or a stray fly ball from a neighbor's baseball game, the durability of these shingles is something I wold expect to far EXCEED the standard shingles installed in my area.

 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf