Author Topic: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!  (Read 32121 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29685
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« on: February 10, 2017, 10:51:08 pm »
Bristol University have a neat new "zero power sensing" chip that takes energy harvested signals and switches an open drain output, the UB20M Voltage Detector.
But the marketing has gone too far when they demo a TV that supposedly has zero standby power. Dave busts this smoke and mirrors demo.

http://www.bristol.ac.uk/engineering/research/em/research/zero-standby-power/
Datasheet: http://www.bristol.ac.uk/media-library/sites/engineering/research/eem-group/zero-standby/UB20M_Datasheet_Rev.1.2.pdf

 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 730
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2017, 11:34:44 pm »
.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17657
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2017, 11:39:07 pm »
IMHO it is kinda interesting to switch something on with the light received from an infrared transmitter even though their examples and demos are half assed.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Avacee

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 293
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2017, 11:50:32 pm »
I want to know how an earthquake generates infra-red radiation to make using that chip in such a sensor worthwhile.
 

Offline Razor512

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2017, 11:55:52 pm »
I feel it could be useful in some cases, though for their examples, it will fail for most devices. For example, many TVs do not respond to a TV  remote for a few seconds when plugged in. For example, on my TV, it takes about 4 seconds before it will even listen for the remote, thus the case will be how long can that device keep the current flowing after it receives the initial trigger.
It will only really be useful for sensor type devices that can be woken up almost instantly so no special initialization process.

« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 11:58:41 pm by Razor512 »
 

Online rsjsouza

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3395
  • Country: us
  • Eternally curious
    • Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2017, 12:12:21 am »
The idea is interesting, but I agree with you: their usage examples could have been better.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline trophosphere

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 217
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2017, 12:18:08 am »
I have a zero standby power device for AC line powered equipment here: (It can even work from your couch if made long enough)



On a side note, the Youtube video within a Youtube video confused me for a couple seconds as the red time bar wasn't moving yet Dave was still talking.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29685
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2017, 12:23:46 am »
IMHO it is kinda interesting to switch something on with the light received from an infrared transmitter even though their examples and demos are half assed.

Sure, it's an interesting chip.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29685
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2017, 12:25:17 am »
I feel it could be useful in some cases, though for their examples, it will fail for most devices. For example, many TVs do not respond to a TV  remote for a few seconds when plugged in. For example, on my TV, it takes about 4 seconds before it will even listen for the remote, thus the case will be how long can that device keep the current flowing after it receives the initial trigger.
It will only really be useful for sensor type devices that can be woken up almost instantly so no special initialization process.

Good point, and you can see that in their original video I think, he's pressing the power button for at least a few seconds to overcome that.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17657
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2017, 12:27:38 am »
I want to know how an earthquake generates infra-red radiation to make using that chip in such a sensor worthwhile.
It just needs some electricity. In case of an earthquake a piezo crystal and a small weight will probably do the trick. 5 years from a 9V block means the sensor is drawing quite a bit of power. Imagine you could replace that with a coin cell (assuming this can provide the power to create a loud enough sound). But then again my experience with earthquakes is limited and I have absolutely no use for a detector.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 12:31:02 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2105
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2017, 01:35:57 am »
I have a zero standby power device for AC line powered equipment here: (It can even work from your couch if made long enough)



On a side note, the Youtube video within a Youtube video confused me for a couple seconds as the red time bar wasn't moving yet Dave was still talking.
You joke, but they're actually available and very convenient:

http://www.ecoswitch.com.au/
 

Offline trophosphere

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 217
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2017, 01:59:19 am »
You joke, but they're actually available and very convenient:
...

Nice find. I'm going to get a one as some of my test equipment goes to sleep rather than actually turns off.
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone

Offline rrinker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1885
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2017, 02:25:48 am »
OMG   :-DD  "Where does it get the power from, the Oompa-Loompas in Willy Wonka's chocolate factory?" I am STILL laughing  :-DD :-DD
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29685
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2017, 02:33:36 am »
FYI, I have heard from the head of the group and needless to say they are not happy.
They have been "forced" to remove their videos due to the negative comments left on them ::)
Last I checked several people including Mike had left negative comments a week ago or something like that, so it's not new.
They did ask nicely if I'd change the thumbnail which I have done as a show of good faith.
I don't know if they will respond publicly or not and will not reveal their email response unless they approve.
 

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 9229
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2017, 02:45:49 am »
A case of a marketing mind overplaying a worthwhile technical achievement and kneecapping it as a result.

The problem with hype is that people are getting savvy - but they really didn't think it through in this case.  We are talking about a chip - not a consumer product.  The target audience for such a chip is going to be in the EE world - where designers have the knowledge and skills to assess the exact capabilities of such a chip and realise that a practical implementation is not going to achieve the ideal being 'sold'.


It's a bit of a shame, really.
 

Offline trophosphere

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 217
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2017, 03:05:39 am »
FYI, I have heard from the head of the group and needless to say they are not happy.

Hopefully the head of the group is not unhappy about you. He/she should be unhappy towards the person that did the marketing and decided to include the demo of a DC-powered television. That is who the unhappiness should be directed towards.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 03:10:27 am by trophosphere »
 

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 9229
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2017, 03:12:02 am »
It occurred to me that they could have saved a lot of negative comment by simply including the plug pack in their power measurements... comparing power consumption at its input for the TV with and without their new chip in play.

Except I don't think the figures would have been anywhere near as impressive.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29685
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2017, 03:19:15 am »
It occurred to me that they could have saved a lot of negative comment by simply including the plug pack in their power measurements...

The video would never have made and no one would have battered an eyelid

Quote
comparing power consumption at its input for the TV with and without their new chip in play.
Except I don't think the figures would have been anywhere near as impressive.

I went to check the comments on their own video and I saw a response to Mike's comments left a week ago or something. They were bragging about the hudreds of millions times lower current or something.
It was clearly exaggerated marketing.
But all those comments are now gone as they have removed the videos.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29685
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2017, 03:22:55 am »
Hopefully the head of the group is not unhappy about you.

Nope, they are very unhappy with me.
It seems they did not like being criticised and the "bad press" that went along with it.
They seemed fine when people left comments calling BS on their video a week ago, but apparently don't like being called out on a larger public stage.
 

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 9229
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2017, 03:25:48 am »
BS is BS no matter how big the stage is.


... but single negative comments from individuals won't smart as much as an EE based spotlight.
 

Offline Hensingler

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2017, 04:06:20 am »
Sure, it's an interesting chip.

Not much of a chip though is it. Is it actually much more than a low threshold N channel MOSFET?

Seems to have a little bit of hysteresis which doesn't seem to be a huge advantage for anything.

 
The following users thanked this post: MarkL

Offline Bristol Energy

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 10
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2017, 05:22:56 am »
There was absolutely no intention to deceive. We've taken the feedback on board and will edit the videos accordingly. E.g. we'll make it clear that we are only eliminating the power consumed by the TV's standby circuit, not in the adapter.  :-[
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Offline calexanian

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1867
  • Country: us
    • Alex-Tronix
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2017, 06:44:56 am »
As a community we need to come up with a term for ideas that are non starters, but people have already put all this emotional capital into, but technologically or logically have no leg to stand on. As a company we are bombarded by "Briliant" ideas from people and we have to go through all the technical reasons why it should not, or can not be done, or that it has already been done just to have an emotional response from the "Inventor" that their idea is special.

I blame the faculty at this Uni. Any casual datasheet search would bring you to many devices with this purpose in mind, or as Dave found switch mode controllers that already incorporate low stand by mode.

As far as the 12 volt operated TV set, this smells of a instructor or student adviser not wanting the little students play with real voltage. I would hope that they realize the fundamental error in their methodology here.  Otherwise those kids degrees are not worth the paper (I assume PETA has done away with lambskin) they are printed on.
Charles Alexanian
Alex-Tronix Control Systems
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9242
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2017, 06:49:21 am »
The only thing that is relevant is the total power consumption, the TV is not much use without the adapter.

That said, I've noticed that the standby consumption of quite a few modern TVs is extremely low. My 60" LCD consumes something like 1W in standby IIRC. Some older gear was ridiculous, I have a powered subwoofer that draws a whopping 18W in standby, exactly the same as it draws when it's on and idle. I'd had it for over a decade by the time I realized this and a quick calculation determined it had consumed around 1MWH in standby over the period I'd owned it.
 

Online NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5534
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2017, 06:56:36 am »
What about design a power supply where the startup supply for the PWM controller comes from a 5V bias on the secondary side? Then use the 5V from the HDMI input to wake it up. Doesn't work very well with smart TVs, though...

In practice, modern TVs already use very little power in standby.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9242
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2017, 06:59:16 am »
What about design a power supply where the startup supply for the PWM controller comes from a 5V bias on the secondary side? Then use the 5V from the HDMI input to wake it up. Doesn't work very well with smart TVs, though...

In practice, modern TVs already use very little power in standby.


But where does that 5V come from? Unless you run the HDMI cable over to your neighbor's house and "borrow" standby power from them it's still your power, whether it comes in through the TV's power cord, or the power cord of your BD player or whatever.
 

Offline MasterTech

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 879
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2017, 07:41:05 am »
IMHO it is kinda interesting to switch something on with the light received from an infrared transmitter even though their examples and demos are half assed.

Sure, it's an interesting chip.
Really? What would be the difference between that chip and a appropriate FET?
 

Online NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5534
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2017, 07:54:27 am »
But where does that 5V come from? Unless you run the HDMI cable over to your neighbor's house and "borrow" standby power from them it's still your power, whether it comes in through the TV's power cord, or the power cord of your BD player or whatever.
The key is *standby*. Switch the connected device to standby and it would switch off its 5V output, reducing the power draw of the display to an insignificant amount of leakage. In the active state, the power usage of the display itself would swamp out the tiny amount it takes to run the PWM controller.

An easy tweak to reduce the power usage of a display in the active state is to implement an adaptive backlight that actually works well. Some early implementations were very "jumpy" and not very well liked, but it shouldn't be too difficult to implement a good algorithm like what every modern smartphone has nowadays. Going up in difficulty (by a lot) is to replace the white backlight with a RGB one and also remove the color filters, strobing the colors in sequence and switching the LCD in sync. In theory, that would cut backlight power usage to 1/3 but it's very difficult to make it work well in practice.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline Don Hills

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 159
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2017, 09:08:46 am »
I don't see the chip as bullshit. It does what it says it does. It's just their demo that's flawed. If they'd shown it properly integrated with the TV, and used a TV with internal PSU, it would have been fine in my opinion. Arrange it so that the chip only powers up the IR receiver / decoder, which then decides if the code is for that device and powers up the main PSU.

It wouldn't be very practical as a standalone box plugged inline with the device power. I already have a couple of those. (Mort Bay Standby Killer Switch.)  At least they do learn the IR code for the device power, but they're not goof proof and they do draw some standby current of their own. They do claim it "Saves over 80% power consumption on 42" Plasma TV and set top box." (Assuming 1W for the TV, 7.9W for the set top box.) Where have I heard "80% savings" before?

 

Offline bktemp

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1623
  • Country: de
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2017, 09:45:33 am »
I don't see the chip as bullshit. It does what it says it does. It's just their demo that's flawed.
Yes, it is like the Batteriser: It boosts the output voltage of batteries (so it basically works), but it can't provide the promised 800% increase of battery life (as used for their marketing).

The zero power switch can switch devices on without an auxillary power supply. But it ony works for devices within its supply voltage range where it can use the already existing DC supply voltage for turning on a mosfet. Let's say you want to turn on a 12V device powered by battery, it works fine as shown in their demo.
But for anything mains powered you need to do some level shifting or use some other circuit to switch the much higher voltage. And that circuit consumes standby power. There are ways to keep the losses at miniumum (like the SMPS controller ic Dave found), but it will never be zero. You probably could add a battery or use some other energy harvesting device for providing the initial power to turn the main power supply on, but technically that is not zero power.

Regardless how I think about it, the device and its demonstration is very much like the Batteriser: There are some niche applications where it is useful, but it does not work for every device reducing its standy power to zero.
 

Online rsjsouza

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3395
  • Country: us
  • Eternally curious
    • Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2017, 10:04:14 am »
I went to check the comments on their own video and I saw a response to Mike's comments left a week ago or something. They were bragging about the hudreds of millions times lower current or something.
It was clearly exaggerated marketing.
But all those comments are now gone as they have removed the videos.
One interesting detail is that the DMM on the first demo seems to be set to the 10A range. Given a standby power of 5W, the resolution of the DMM will barely measure the current if it was directly to 240Vac (2mA). At 12V, sure, the 5W would be much more expressive but to claim "zero power" you would need a much more precise instrument (perhaps with your uCurrent).
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline Bristol Energy

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 10
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2017, 10:56:41 am »
Having been Dave-slapped, I've edited the video: https://youtu.be/YQ9py3ArfqI
Let us know what you think please.?
 

Offline firewalker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2328
  • Country: gr
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2017, 11:00:04 am »
Welcome Bristol Energy!

Alexander.
Become a realist, stay a dreamer.

 
The following users thanked this post: Bristol Energy

Offline Zbig

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 856
  • Country: pl
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2017, 11:36:25 am »
Going up in difficulty (by a lot) is to replace the white backlight with a RGB one and also remove the color filters, strobing the colors in sequence and switching the LCD in sync. In theory, that would cut backlight power usage to 1/3 but it's very difficult to make it work well in practice.

RGB backlight is nothing new, albeit it's used for reasons other than power saving. Closer matching of the backlight to color filters' spectral characteristics being one of the reasons. Other solutions, as you suggest, do away with the filters altogether. Google "quantum dot display", "Sony Triluminos" for other non-conventional LCD architectures. However, the solution you suggest, to simply RGB-cycle the backlight wouldn't work well in large TV displays. This, too, is being done. My digital still camera's electronic viewfinder works that way and it's called "sequential update viewfinder". It's all fine when you just stare at it spot-on but produces very noticeable (to me) artifacting once you move your eyeball. The effect is similar to DLP-based projectors. Apparently, some people are very bothered by this, some don't really notice it and some do but don't care.

EDIT:
I previously suggested that both "quantum dot" and "Triluminos" are RGB backlight technologies which is not factually accurate. I rephrased my wording.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 11:41:26 am by Zbig »
 

Offline madires

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4728
  • Country: de
  • A qualified hobbyist ;)
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2017, 11:49:47 am »
I don't see the chip as bullshit. It does what it says it does. It's just their demo that's flawed. If they'd shown it properly integrated with the TV, and used a TV with internal PSU, it would have been fine in my opinion. Arrange it so that the chip only powers up the IR receiver / decoder, which then decides if the code is for that device and powers up the main PSU.

Adding an UB20M to lower the standby power of a TV could be done by modifying the power supply. First we need a controllable power switch at the primary side, which is automatically triggered when the TV is connected to mains. Then we need a cap to store power for some time and a control to keep the cap charged, i.e. triggering the power switch for a few seconds for recharging the cap. The control is powered by the cap. The UB20M can tie into that logic to switch on the TV. But it will never be zero standby power for any mains powered device, just a reduction of it. And with this design we wouldn't need the UB20M anyway, because the cap could also power the IR receiver module plus a MCU. But the UB20M would be handy for battery powered devices with long run times and which could
be triggered by a sensor that creates enough power for the UB20M, i.e. photo diodes, piezo elements and what have you. That only works if the sensor providing power for the UB20M uses the same "input" as the primary sensor of the device.  So a few devices could benefit, certainly not all. It's a niche product.
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15091
  • Country: za
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2017, 12:42:58 pm »
B&O did this in the late 1980's and developed a TV set with true zero power off consumption, though the set itself was a Phillips Vestel chassis ( IIRC) inside the box, with a nearly standard Phillips IR remote control, and a slightly modified Phillips microcontroller board, with just a few tiny changes made to the firmware ,and a single hardware change.

How they did it was to put in a power switch with a 12V solenoid coil to release it, and then put in into the OSD menus as power option, which would either put it intro low power regular Vestel board standby ( power supply would turn all outputs down to a low voltage, the microcontroller would use the I2C bus to disable the tuner, horizontal and vertical oscillators and mute the audio amplifier IC, the power supply running in a hiccup mode to maintain a low voltage on all the rails, the micro being powered from the 36v audio rail via a high voltage rated 7805 regulator) or in the true off state the micro would put the Tv into power off, and then trigger the coil on the power switch to disconnect power from the mains input entirely.

There was also an auxiliary contact on the switch, which made only while the switch was pressed, not while it was latched. This was connected to the microcontroller so it could, on power up, tell if the power had gone out ( thus start up the set in standby) or if the power switch had been pressed, and turn on the set like it had been commanded on via the remote control.

These were touted for use in places like hotels or such where they could be off for long periods, and you wanted the power saving, or for those who did not want the red standby light on all the time.  Free with this control came a timer, so you could turn off the set automatically at night after you fell asleep.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17657
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2017, 02:13:20 pm »
IMHO it is kinda interesting to switch something on with the light received from an infrared transmitter even though their examples and demos are half assed.
Sure, it's an interesting chip.
Really? What would be the difference between that chip and a appropriate FET?
For starters: a well defined on/off voltage. If you use a single FET and it turns half way on with a large-ish load then it will release it's magic smoke and/or the load will get stuck in an undefined (power draining) state because it isn't switched on properly.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline MasterTech

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 879
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2017, 02:34:41 pm »
For starters: a well defined on/off voltage.
Does the UB20M have a well defined on/off voltage?

Quote
If you use a single FET and it turns half way on with a large-ish load then it will release it's magic smoke and/or the load will get stuck in an undefined (power draining) state because it isn't switched on properly.
The UB20M does not turn on the load, remember it has a open drain output (oh, just like the drain pin of a FET!) , it needs another device like a P-channel FET to turn on the load with the always present 12V.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17657
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2017, 02:41:18 pm »
For starters: a well defined on/off voltage.
Does the UB20M have a well defined on/off voltage?

Quote
If you use a single FET and it turns half way on with a large-ish load then it will release it's magic smoke and/or the load will get stuck in an undefined (power draining) state because it isn't switched on properly.
The UB20M does not turn on the load, remember it has a open drain output (oh, just like the drain pin of a FET!) , it needs another device like a P-channel FET to turn on the load with the always present 12V.
You are trying to find downsides which aren't there. The creators should have showed a battery powered device instead of a TV which runs from 12V and needs an extra FET. I didn't check the datasheet but it is reasonable to assume the open drain output can be used as a power switch directly. You don't always need to switch the positive supply voltage.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Hensingler

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2017, 03:05:57 pm »
You are trying to find downsides which aren't there. The creators should have showed a battery powered device instead of a TV which runs from 12V and needs an extra FET. I didn't check the datasheet but it is reasonable to assume the open drain output can be used as a power switch directly. You don't always need to switch the positive supply voltage.

Then maybe you should have checked the data sheet. Abs max output rating is 5.5v and 7mA. Thresholds are not well defined either, nothing but typical values.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17657
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2017, 03:20:44 pm »
7mA is more than enough for many battery powered (sensor-ish) devices.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline timb

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2528
  • Country: us
  • Pretentiously Posting Polysyllabic Prose
    • timb.us
EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2017, 04:17:03 pm »
7mA is more than enough for many battery powered (sensor-ish) devices.

It's used to control a MOSFET which could handle much more than 7mA, so that's not even a limitation. (I.e., the Open Drain output can sink a max of 7mA current.)

The 5V limit isn't much of a limit either, since you'd likely pull up the MOSFET's gate with a high value (1M to 10M) resistor, which means you could use a 12V or higher source for said pull-up and most likely not run into any issues (since the current would be in the uA range, it wouldn't hurt the chip despite it being above the absolute maximum voltage ratings).
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 04:19:34 pm by timb »
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 

Offline Cerebus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3396
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2017, 05:13:06 pm »
The only thing that is relevant is the total power consumption, the TV is not much use without the adapter.

That said, I've noticed that the standby consumption of quite a few modern TVs is extremely low. My 60" LCD consumes something like 1W in standby IIRC. Some older gear was ridiculous, I have a powered subwoofer that draws a whopping 18W in standby, exactly the same as it draws when it's on and idle. I'd had it for over a decade by the time I realized this and a quick calculation determined it had consumed around 1MWH in standby over the period I'd owned it.

Depending on your utility prices and how good a subwoofer it is, you could have paid for it twice.

When I rewired my living room a few years back I put in separate unswitched sockets on their own circuit for all the AV gear and put a 30A switch next to the light switches. Standby consumption zero (except for the PVR on another circuit, so that it can still record when everything else is off cold).
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9242
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2017, 05:28:29 pm »
The only thing that is relevant is the total power consumption, the TV is not much use without the adapter.

That said, I've noticed that the standby consumption of quite a few modern TVs is extremely low. My 60" LCD consumes something like 1W in standby IIRC. Some older gear was ridiculous, I have a powered subwoofer that draws a whopping 18W in standby, exactly the same as it draws when it's on and idle. I'd had it for over a decade by the time I realized this and a quick calculation determined it had consumed around 1MWH in standby over the period I'd owned it.

Depending on your utility prices and how good a subwoofer it is, you could have paid for it twice.

When I rewired my living room a few years back I put in separate unswitched sockets on their own circuit for all the AV gear and put a 30A switch next to the light switches. Standby consumption zero (except for the PVR on another circuit, so that it can still record when everything else is off cold).

My power is relatively inexpensive, about $0.08 per kWh, but it still adds up over time. It was not a particularly expensive subwoofer but it's not crap either. I still use it but I have it connected to a power strip that I shut off when not in use. I have the same arrangement on the TV and related stuff down in my rec room, it's on a power strip with a switch.
 

Offline Razor512

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2017, 07:41:14 pm »
In thinking about it more, it might work if a TV or product was built around the chip. For example, a toggle where you enable the super low power standby mode, the TV will switch to that circuit, and then change a setting where the TV will automatically turn on when it receives power, thus that single button press, handles everything.

Overall, their product needs to be integrated into something else.
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9242
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2017, 07:45:29 pm »
I just don't see it as being necessary anymore. Standby power used to be a real issue and it was not uncommon for devices to consume 5-10W or more in standby but spurred by Energy Star requirements and greater awareness this is not really an issue anymore. Standby power on modern devices is extremely low, some are less than 1 Watt. There are diminishing returns on efforts to reduce it further.
 
The following users thanked this post: jonovid

Offline Razor512

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2017, 07:56:57 pm »
I wonder, how does it react when powering a device off? For example, suppose it is a device which saves log files to flash storage during the shutdown sequence (like with some entry level NAS devices, and routers), does the circuit wait for the load to drop below a certain threshold, or does it simple toggle on when one pulse is given, and then toggle off when another pulse is given?
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12001
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2017, 08:00:01 pm »
Having been Dave-slapped, I've edited the video: https://youtu.be/YQ9py3ArfqI
Let us know what you think please.?

The problem is it still has a TV in it, so you're is still using an application for which this is just not an issue, just like any mains powered device. It just doesn't matter if it draws a picowatt or a milliwatt. The PSU is always going to be using much more.
If you really want to make a claim of  near-zero power TV, look at integrating your device  into the switchmode PSU primary side.

The device only makes any sense on devices with extremely low available power -tiny batteries or harvested power.  And even then it's only going to be useful in a small percentage of those devices that can't do just as well using low duty cycles or standard discrete devices.
Even with the smallest battery, battery shelf-life is likely to be more of a limitation, so again, it doesn't matter if it's picowatts or nanowatts.

Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline Cerebus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3396
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2017, 08:07:25 pm »
Standby power on modern devices is extremely low, some are less than 1 Watt. There are diminishing returns on efforts to reduce it further.

Don't forget Dave's point though, that 1W often represents 3-5VA in generation and distribution capacity. So, that's another 1.5MVA to 2.5MVA of generation capacity for each appliance on standby per household for a population the size of London (500,000 households). That's enough for another 1000+ households in total.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
The following users thanked this post: DenzilPenberthy

Offline ScottK

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 11
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2017, 09:27:52 pm »
I have a zero standby power device for AC line powered equipment here: (It can even work from your couch if made long enough)



On a side note, the Youtube video within a Youtube video confused me for a couple seconds as the red time bar wasn't moving yet Dave was still talking.

That's actually not a zero standby power device, even if the circuitry draws no power. The dissipation of 6ft of typical power cord at Dave's 240V is around half a milliwatt (measured it long ago here in the US (120V) and have used ~20uW/ft as a guess ever since). There's little benefit in setting the standby power bar lower than that for a mains powered design.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 09:29:49 pm by ScottK »
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9242
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2017, 09:28:19 pm »
Standby power on modern devices is extremely low, some are less than 1 Watt. There are diminishing returns on efforts to reduce it further.

Don't forget Dave's point though, that 1W often represents 3-5VA in generation and distribution capacity. So, that's another 1.5MVA to 2.5MVA of generation capacity for each appliance on standby per household for a population the size of London (500,000 households). That's enough for another 1000+ households in total.

That is true of course, it all adds up. Still, the standby power has been reduced dramatically over the past decade or so and there are diminishing returns to further reduction. In most households I'd expect there are other areas from which we could squeeze out a lot more savings per unit of effort spent. I'm always shocked at how many people I see still using incandescent lightbulbs to light their homes. I haven't had one of those in general illumination service in more than 15 years and as of a few years ago I've phased out all of my CFLs and replaced them with still more efficient LED bulbs. I can turn on every light in my whole house all at once and it uses about as much power as one small room lit by traditional incandescents.
 

Offline RGB255_0_0

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 774
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2017, 09:39:16 pm »
Standby power on modern devices is extremely low, some are less than 1 Watt. There are diminishing returns on efforts to reduce it further.

Don't forget Dave's point though, that 1W often represents 3-5VA in generation and distribution capacity. So, that's another 1.5MVA to 2.5MVA of generation capacity for each appliance on standby per household for a population the size of London (500,000 households). That's enough for another 1000+ households in total.

That is true of course, it all adds up. Still, the standby power has been reduced dramatically over the past decade or so and there are diminishing returns to further reduction. In most households I'd expect there are other areas from which we could squeeze out a lot more savings per unit of effort spent. I'm always shocked at how many people I see still using incandescent lightbulbs to light their homes. I haven't had one of those in general illumination service in more than 15 years and as of a few years ago I've phased out all of my CFLs and replaced them with still more efficient LED bulbs. I can turn on every light in my whole house all at once and it uses about as much power as one small room lit by traditional incandescents.
Yes it does, as well as safety. It's all well and good putting a device on the mains side of a PSU as long as it can be safely done - bringing an IR receiver from the live to the "safe", front part of the TV may well violate several laws.
Your toaster just set fire to an African child over TCP.
 

Offline trophosphere

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 217
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2017, 10:05:26 pm »
That's actually not a zero standby power device, even if the circuitry draws no power. The dissipation of 6ft of typical power cord at Dave's 240V is around half a milliwatt (measured it long ago here in the US (120V) and have used ~20uW/ft as a guess ever since). There's little benefit in setting the standby power bar lower than that for a mains powered design.

I disagree. The circuit is not completed (i.e. no current flows) when the switch is off so there can NOT be any dissipation. If there is current flow then it is no longer in "stand-by" and no one cares anymore. :palm:
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9242
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2017, 10:10:34 pm »
That's actually not a zero standby power device, even if the circuitry draws no power. The dissipation of 6ft of typical power cord at Dave's 240V is around half a milliwatt (measured it long ago here in the US (120V) and have used ~20uW/ft as a guess ever since). There's little benefit in setting the standby power bar lower than that for a mains powered design.

I disagree. The circuit is not completed (i.e. no current flows) when the switch is off so there can NOT be any dissipation. If there is current flow then it is no longer in "stand-by" and no one cares anymore. :palm:

There is current flow due to capacitive coupling between the wires. It's apparent power so it's not going to be recorded by your meter but it does increase dissipation in the wires.
 

Offline trophosphere

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 217
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2017, 10:20:44 pm »
There is current flow due to capacitive coupling between the wires. It's apparent power so it's not going to be recorded by your meter but it does increase dissipation in the wires.

And how significant is that? If you are going to be that pendantic then you are forgetting to account about the capacitive coupling between the large lengths of wire between this and the power station. I bet the amount of power being lost in that far exceeds the amount you lose in just a 6 foot long cord. If you are so strict on the definition of zero power then practically nothing is zero power as there is leakage current on the order of femto-amps between conductors on a PCB (that is still thousands of electrons).
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29685
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #55 on: February 11, 2017, 10:49:27 pm »
The problem is it still has a TV in it, so you're is still using an application for which this is just not an issue, just like any mains powered device. It just doesn't matter if it draws a picowatt or a milliwatt. The PSU is always going to be using much more.
If you really want to make a claim of  near-zero power TV, look at integrating your device  into the switchmode PSU primary side.

The device only makes any sense on devices with extremely low available power -tiny batteries or harvested power.  And even then it's only going to be useful in a small percentage of those devices that can't do just as well using low duty cycles or standard discrete devices.
Even with the smallest battery, battery shelf-life is likely to be more of a limitation, so again, it doesn't matter if it's picowatts or nanowatts.

Agreed.
The IR receiver example is a poor one, especially the TV example, as there are plenty of existing ways to do the exact same thing at the uA level, e.g.:
https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/app-notes/index.mvp/id/1101
Or simply roll your own custom job with a few jelly bean parts, you don't need the UB20M

They need to find a kick-arse niche example and show how the chip enables functionality you can't easily get elsewhere or with existing solutions.
It's a relatively novel chip and it's needs a novel example solution.
With the countless examples they touted in the video I'm sure they can come up with something better. The TV was just low hanging fruit, and fruit you can't eat.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 10:52:41 pm by EEVblog »
 
The following users thanked this post: Brumby

Offline ScottK

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 11
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2017, 11:55:06 pm »
They need to find a kick-arse niche example and show how the chip enables functionality you can't easily get elsewhere or with existing solutions.
It's a relatively novel chip and it's needs a novel example solution.

Agreed. And that may be as difficult to do as the part was to create.

I hate raining on parades, but maybe that's just what happens after four decades in the field. It's so easy to see what won't work, I wonder if I'll miss what will.

That's why we make young people, right?
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15091
  • Country: za
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2017, 04:19:33 am »
Standby power on modern devices is extremely low, some are less than 1 Watt. There are diminishing returns on efforts to reduce it further.

Don't forget Dave's point though, that 1W often represents 3-5VA in generation and distribution capacity. So, that's another 1.5MVA to 2.5MVA of generation capacity for each appliance on standby per household for a population the size of London (500,000 households). That's enough for another 1000+ households in total.

That 3-5VA will be power factor corrected by the local distribution transformer automatically, as the line capacitance and inductance will filter it out quite well. This low load will be swamped by the no load power loss of the power distribution services, lost in core loss, copper loss and in the cooling system losses along with the SCADA systems used to control power flow. In terms of power system loss, this is well in the noise of the whole system, and can only be reduced by wholesale load shedding of blocks of load, and this, done only during times of system overload, is invariably going to be dumping those blocks which are drawing a significant load, not the zero load ones. The meter loss in the house will be a similar value, but you do not see anybody complaining of this, meters do run warm enough not to have condensation on them in any weather.
 

Offline Grapsus

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 239
  • Country: fr
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2017, 11:06:34 am »
@Bristol Energy

It's a good sign on your side to come here and actually have a discussion, thanks for that :)

You might have an interesting chip but the TV demo (deceptive or not) clearly doesn't make a good use of it. I'd even say that any application having access to mains is a bad application since those draw watts in standby just to reduce the cost and they could get milliwatts standby if they wanted to.

Why don't you make an actual impressive demo with an autonomous application. For a example a device that wakes up when it senses a flame (lots of IR) and sends an alarm. Or a wireless device that wakes up when the base station sends a special RF signal... Sure with those you couldn't impress the masses, but who cares, it's the engineers who design products.
 

Offline Bristol Energy

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 10
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2017, 12:09:10 pm »
Regarding presenting the killer application for this, here is my perspective:

The UB20M is for application in a specific textile energy harvesting technology that we are working on: we are still developing sensor materials that go with this (microstructured ferroelectret foams with up to GOhm output impedances), integrated maximum power tracking on a nW budget, and a variable-ratio switched-capacitor converter. This takes time, perhaps a decade. And so while it is an application for the voltage detector, it's hardly a commercial opportunity, as the product doesn't exist yet. That is the space we work in. We would not get funding to make a product, as that would be seen as a commercial activity.

As part of this we needed to sense voltage levels and detect spikes of incoming power without draining the supercap storage. This is dealt with by a 0.3x0.3mm analogue circuit with 40 different transistors (different W/L ratios, 3 Vds ratings, 2 thresholds), all operating in sub-threshold mode. We thought this might be useful on its own, so in a move that is untypical of UK universities, the University gave us funding to make a batch of 1400 sot-23 devices. Europractice and IMEC worked hard to find suppliers who could dice and package such small quantities on our budget. The 10 devices that we tested (it takes ages) work as expected from post-layout simulation, so now we have a low-power analogue IC that beats the voltage detector competition significantly on 4 parameters (input current, threshold, max input V, output leakage), and is arguably worse on 2 further parameters (temperature range, dVin/dt range).

It takes a lot of courage to put raw, unpolished work out there for debate, but I believe that is the role and duty of Universities, rather than hiding their stuff in fancy and expensive journal publications.

We have spent no time on developing applications and products, in fact we've only had these devices for 2 months! We just wanted to get them out there quickly and feel the love of application engineers  :-DD

We do have 3 or 4 circuits running with devices in the previous research packages (84 pin). Most of these would seem pointless to most people, or at least not encourage them to think about how they could use this device. E.g. we have a boost converter that uses 7 of these devices (e.g. three in a ring with some tuning to create a nW quiescent low-duty gate driver). We have an RF wake-up circuit with a very high sensitivity. The only way of getting the same sensitivity is to ask for a research chip from the world's leading research group on this topic. With our device you can build this on a breadboard. But are there applications for this yet? We don't know. And an application engineer would want the 7 devices put onto one die, so again it's a complicated example.

We want to create the raw material that encourages others to see if they might have a use. We have an online form at bristol.ac.uk to request samples, and this has been populated by some great ideas, which, and we are very open about this, we would not have come up with. I WISH I would tell you about them, some are ingenious, and no doubt some won't work out. But obviously we can't, as these are not our ideas. I can say though that IR has featured in 3 of the applications which I think are great.

I really do understand that you don't like the TV application, because if regulation came in to reduce standby power, there would be other ways of reducing this to minimal values. I want to keep the video up there though because it led to our three requests for an IR related application. I have edited the TV application hype out of the video now, but obviously it still shows the TV. I wish people would see past the TV and just see it as the first demo where a weak IR source triggers a system that in principle only draws sub-100pA leakage. I understand that they don't. Just in the same way that some people don't see past the title and first three sentences of the buster video, and don't see that you actually like our chip.

We'll do better videos, but we'll need some patience as it takes time to create these demos, and it's not our main job.

So, instead we've put the broad areas up there (the "marketing 101"-style video has been edited following your feedback, see https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJBmHmeiMuUr6yraft6uCMv6L5qab3F0f).

So, please feel free to ask questions about the technology, or make suggestions. Or tell us to make better videos. That's fine and helpful. We'll do our best to learn, and do this right.
In return, could you please help us diffuse some of the aggressive commenting being made on YouTube by your followers? Imagine if your kids were getting this sort of abuse by people who can't see past the slagging off of our marketing hype. My guys have one desire, and that is to create something useful. They work overtime, and are on low UK public sector wages, they really deserve a bit of praise for what they've achieved. And they would find it much more gratifying it if came from you guys than me!  :-+
 

Offline Bristol Energy

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 10
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2017, 12:10:56 pm »
Why don't you make an actual impressive demo with an autonomous application. For a example a device that wakes up when it senses a flame (lots of IR) and sends an alarm. Or a wireless device that wakes up when the base station sends a special RF signal... Sure with those you couldn't impress the masses, but who cares, it's the engineers who design products.

Good idea, thanks  :-+
 

Offline Delta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1225
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #61 on: February 12, 2017, 12:30:56 pm »
It is always disappointing to see engineers being so deliberately deceptive.  Leave that to the marketing wankers.

Shame on you, Bristol Energy, and shame on your University.
 

Online Twoflower

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 477
  • Country: de
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #62 on: February 12, 2017, 12:38:02 pm »
Please don't use the fire-alram idea. People would complain as there's something like smouldering fire and/or the fire might not be in plain sight of the sensor. In general safety related gear you should carefully check if it works as it should be. Any delay or not going off could be lethal.

The device looks like a nice idea. Still I'm unclear if there's a marked for it. Except very cheap stuff the design should be somewhat power aware. First there's the battery life second at least in Europe there is the requirement to consume less than 0.5W or 1W if in idle. Keeping in mind that you still need some energy to enable the PSU (clearly marked in your datasheet with +1.8V) there's little headroom.

And to be honest there is a alternative solution to the problem you address: https://www.siemens.com/press/en/presspicture/2008/corporate_technology/in20080403-01.htm (they had/have also a zero-watt PC). As you see they measure at the mains. And it was introduces 2008. I haven't checked how they exactly did this. But I assume they use a Accu/SuperCap to to deliver the energy to switch the PSU on during the device is waiting to be switched on. This energy reservoir will be refilled if the monitor/PC is switched on. In general this will reduce the total amount of energy used as the PSU usually operates with much higher efficiency under higher loads. Of course this only works for equipment powered by mains. But as you see it never got mainstream. The main reason is probably it makes the devices more expensive.
 

Offline Tek_TDS220

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2017, 05:09:51 pm »
There are many universities that now have over-active marketing departments.  MIT, for example, makes wildly exaggerated claims about their research that often appear in the popular press.  It's usually related to battery or energy technology that catches public interest.  The scientists involved go along with these claims, even though they know the claims about the impact of their research is mostly BS.
 

Offline Bristol Energy

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 10
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2017, 05:16:33 pm »
What are your thoughts about these potential demos, would you find them useful?
-Using a computer buzzer as a touch sensor.
-Using an accelerometer "unplugged" to trigger turn-on of something, e.g. its own amplifier.
-Triggering some kind of sensor from a distance using an IR beacon.
-A demo of us measuring the datasheet characteristics such as leakage current, threshold etc.

 

Offline Delta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1225
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2017, 05:30:38 pm »
I'd like to see a video of you putting your (not really) zero standby power telly into said (not really) zero power standby mode, using the remote control.

Your Marketing Wank 101™ video shows it being turned on, but not off.....
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 05:32:17 pm by Delta »
 

Offline IanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9553
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2017, 06:26:48 pm »
What are your thoughts about these potential demos, would you find them useful?
-Using a computer buzzer as a touch sensor.
-Using an accelerometer "unplugged" to trigger turn-on of something, e.g. its own amplifier.
-Triggering some kind of sensor from a distance using an IR beacon.
-A demo of us measuring the datasheet characteristics such as leakage current, threshold etc.

I think an ideal application would be something small and battery powered, with a very low power budget and an "always on" requirement. Maybe something small enough that it needs to be powered by a coin cell, yet something that needs to record and log events autonomously over a long period of time without human interaction. When an event needs recording it wakes up, records the data and then goes back to sleep.

Anything with larger batteries could manage with a µW standby power drain, and for anything mains powered a mW standby power consumption would be of no consequence.
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 
The following users thanked this post: Bristol Energy

Offline Bristol Energy

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 10
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2017, 07:02:34 pm »
I'd like to see a video of you putting your (not really) zero standby power telly into said (not really) zero power standby mode, using the remote control.

Your Marketing Wank 101™ video shows it being turned on, but not off.....

This happens right at the start. When the TV is on, the normal standby circuit is running. The TV processor turns the whole system off. The conventional IR receiver requires either a signal from our IR detector, or one from the TV to be on.
 

Online Twoflower

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 477
  • Country: de
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2017, 07:04:55 pm »
What are your thoughts about these potential demos, would you find them useful?
-Using a computer buzzer as a touch sensor.
-Using an accelerometer "unplugged" to trigger turn-on of something, e.g. its own amplifier.
-Triggering some kind of sensor from a distance using an IR beacon.
-A demo of us measuring the datasheet characteristics such as leakage current, threshold etc.
It looks like you're unsure for yourself what your device can do if you start to ask around here. Usually that's something you should do in detail before you spend cash to design/manufacture anything. OK, engineers tend to do this opposite ;)

How about this: You come with ideas, as it's your device and your company and we could think about if it make sense. I think you're bright enough to do the math for all ideas even before you start to build up your ideas to check if it's worth or not.

Not sure if that's the right ballpark but as starter I would draw the line useful/waste of money at about a one or two year ROI. Anything that has a battery life of more than 3 years isn't worth to look at (except the saving comes for free). For mains driven stuff: What is the potential power saving. Do two measurements: First check the consumption of the power brick alone (not connected to the TV. Second repeat with the TV connected and switched off. That's the potential energy you can save. Is this saving within the targeted ROI time frame or not?

I could be wrong with that but that would be my first step to a) think about before develop anything b) coming up with ideas.
 

Offline IanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9553
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2017, 08:09:16 pm »
It looks like you're unsure for yourself what your device can do if you start to ask around here. Usually that's something you should do in detail before you spend cash to design/manufacture anything. OK, engineers tend to do this opposite ;)

I think this is to fundamentally misunderstand the idea of universities. Universities are not engaged in business and commerce, they are engaged in teaching and research. To insist that research has to have a commercial application to be justified is stifle the exploration and creativity that is essential to discovery.

I think Dave's point with the original debunking video was to object to the presentation of an interesting device as if it really might be used in televisions, rather than just saying "here's an illustration of how it works using some everyday objects you can relate to, even though this would not be a real world application for it".
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 
The following users thanked this post: Bristol Energy

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29685
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2017, 08:45:20 pm »
It looks like you're unsure for yourself what your device can do if you start to ask around here. Usually that's something you should do in detail before you spend cash to design/manufacture anything. OK, engineers tend to do this opposite ;)

I think this is to fundamentally misunderstand the idea of universities. Universities are not engaged in business and commerce, they are engaged in teaching and research. To insist that research has to have a commercial application to be justified is stifle the exploration and creativity that is essential to discovery.

Agreed, nothign wrong with developing a chip like this, even if it has no mainstream commercial use. That should be encouraged.
From what I gather they did do research on what applications it can be used in, but once the chip was done started to look for ways to expand the application scope.
I can understand why they did the TV demo, as it's something everyone can understand and knows about. Even Joe Average knows that TV's and other home appliances draw standby power. The problem is that's a very bad demo to engineers who know about this stuff.

But now they are trying to sell the chip commercially, they are asking for feedback from the engineering community as to what might be a good demo that would impress engineers, and I think that's entirely reasonable to ask.

Quote
I think Dave's point with the original debunking video was to object to the presentation of an interesting device as if it really might be used in televisions, rather than just saying "here's an illustration of how it works using some everyday objects you can relate to, even though this would not be a real world application for it".

Yep, it basically comes down to target audience. Engineers were criticising this video before I came along.
 
The following users thanked this post: Bristol Energy

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29685
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #71 on: February 12, 2017, 08:47:49 pm »
-A demo of us measuring the datasheet characteristics such as leakage current, threshold etc.

That's always a good kind of video to do. Especially if it involves some explanation of the potential problems in measuring such low currents.
Could be kind of a tutorial video on low current chip characterisation.
 
The following users thanked this post: kony, Bristol Energy

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 9229
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2017, 12:31:20 am »
.... nothign wrong with developing a chip like this, even if it has no mainstream commercial use. That should be encouraged.
Completely agree.

Even if not immediately identifiable as having any commercial viability in itself, I look at it like research brainstorming - it could spark something brilliant.  This could be some bizarre application that was not immediately apparent, or a stepping stone for someone to develop something else.

Quote
From what I gather they did do research on what applications it can be used in, but once the chip was done started to look for ways to expand the application scope.
I can understand why they did the TV demo, as it's something everyone can understand and knows about. Even Joe Average knows that TV's and other home appliances draw standby power. The problem is that's a very bad demo to engineers who know about this stuff.
Right idea - less than ideal execution.

Quote
But now they are trying to sell the chip commercially, they are asking for feedback from the engineering community as to what might be a good demo that would impress engineers, and I think that's entirely reasonable to ask.
Absolutely.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29685
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2017, 12:41:46 am »
Even if not immediately identifiable as having any commercial viability in itself, I look at it like research brainstorming - it could spark something brilliant.  This could be some bizarre application that was not immediately apparent, or a stepping stone for someone to develop something else.

I would be stunned if there is not some immediate niche application for this chip, because AFAIK there is not an equivalent "harness energy, trigger output" kind of chip?
Those who don't think there is an app probably just haven't thought hard enough or aren't involved in an area that needs it.
There will no doubt be some out there that see it and go "wow, that is just does what I need for my dooflewinkle project".
 
The following users thanked this post: nctnico

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12001
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #74 on: February 13, 2017, 12:54:38 am »

I would be stunned if there is not some immediate niche application for this chip, because AFAIK there is not an equivalent "harness energy, trigger output" kind of chip?

There are many, depending on parameters. It's just a case of finding an application that needs performance better than you can do with standard parts.

For anything that has some internal battery supply, a micropower comparator will probably be just fine and draw less than battery self-discharge.
For example
http://www.digikey.co.uk/product-detail/en/texas-instruments/TLV3691IDCKR/296-37910-1-ND/4900957
75nA current draw, 0.9v minimum supply.

If you don't need the threshold voltage as low as 0.6ish a MOSFET will give you near-zero input current.

If you need low threshold, a high-gain bipolar transistor will do that with pretty low input current. (anyone know what the limiting factor is here ? Noise ?)

So that leaves applications that absoutely need both low threshold voltage and low input current, and can't afford the drain of a comparator.
And where you're not worried about a single-source device from a non-mainstream supplier.

Seems a pretty small niche....
 
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Online StillTrying

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2119
  • Country: se
  • Country: Broken Britain
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #75 on: February 13, 2017, 01:21:50 am »
Seems a pretty small niche....

Perhaps they could run a monthly competition. $500.....
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline amspire

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3759
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #76 on: February 13, 2017, 02:53:57 am »
I think the best thing they could do is some Linear Technology-type application notes, where they pick real problems and solve them with their device.

The truth is with TV's is their standby current is improving, and they can make it even better if the market demands it. My current TV uses 0.3W standby which is under 2c a week of electricity. Using the TV's own standby, I get a remote that only reacts to the correct IR remote handset, and I get features like timed video recording. Why would I want to spend, say, $20 on a device to make my TV work worse and that would save me 70c a year?

They need to talk to developers who have real problems and develop well-designed and explained application notes.

The application notes are a great help to developers, and also they would give a real focus to the promotional efforts. Also, the exercise may reveal that they need further development - they may find they have to have a way to recognize a specific IR signal - not just any IR signal - to be useful in many applications. This feature could be built into the device, or there may be a way that when IR is present, a second IR discriminating chip could be powered-up to identify the IR signal.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 03:55:50 am by amspire »
 

Offline Bristol Energy

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 10
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #77 on: February 13, 2017, 03:42:02 am »

There are many, ... a micropower comparator will probably be just fine and draw less than battery self-discharge.
For example
http://www.digikey.co.uk/product-detail/en/texas-instruments/TLV3691IDCKR/296-37910-1-ND/4900957
75nA current draw, 0.9v minimum supply.

If you don't need the threshold voltage as low as 0.6ish a MOSFET will give you near-zero input current.

If you need low threshold, a high-gain bipolar transistor will do that with pretty low input current. (anyone know what the limiting factor is here ? Noise ?)

So that leaves applications that absoutely need both low threshold voltage and low input current, and can't afford the drain of a comparator.
And where you're not worried about a single-source device from a non-mainstream supplier.

Seems a pretty small niche....

Thanks Mike,
I think that describes our niche well.

A single transistor would switch too slowly, when the sensor output gradients are very low, and lock up the system. As the transistor starts to turn on, the load electronics transitions the unwanted logic states too slowly, and a load system gets stuck in a low impedance mode that drains the battery current. So we needed something that works like a power-on-reset circuit.

We use the ZMDI ZSPM4121 if we have 100nA sources, if threshold is not important. 40nA input current. 5.5 max input, 1.2V threshold.

We use the SiLab TS12001 if the threshold is important, 0.78 V, but then you are looking at hundreds of nA input, and only 2.5 V max.

Our IR example would have required hundreds of photodiodes in parallel to turn these devices on.

Our ferroelectret and piezo sensor outputs would collapse to nothing if we used these devices. Once you are down to below square centimetres of active sensor material, it is easy to be in the GOhm output impedance range. If you stomped on the material, then you would overvoltage these commercial detectors.

The RF rectenna needs a very low threshold to get any range. That is why we made another version of this detector with a 0.46 V threshold. If you put your rectenna next to the transmitter, you'd over-voltage a commercial voltage detector. If you protect the input with a zener diode, then the leakage kills your range. We then found, that the 100pA input current of this lower threshold device, made the range worse, so we went back to using our 6pA input device with the slightly higher threshold.

So we need to find which niches require "sensor-driven" approaches, as that seems to be our advantage. These areas need a very low threshold voltage and high maximum input voltage at the same time. Many of these areas probably need sub-nA input current, or it's not realistic with off-the-shelf sensors.  We need a fast switching system to not go into lock up, and we need hysteresis as sensor output gradients can be very slow. Our device does all of this. But what are the applications where a non-sensor driven approach isn't (yet) viable?






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Offline mrpackethead

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2799
  • Country: nz
  • D Size Cell
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #78 on: February 13, 2017, 05:33:29 am »
Personally i think Dave was a bit harsh.. But thats his call, his forum and Blog.   Its his style and its the cynical engineer thing..     The irony is that without daves video i woudl have never known about this, and i now i do.

Its a bit like the 'avoid PCBWAY' thread somewhere else on the forum..  Its probalby sold more PCB's for them than any paid advertsing
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29685
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #79 on: February 13, 2017, 07:14:24 am »
Personally i think Dave was a bit harsh.. But thats his call, his forum and Blog.   Its his style and its the cynical engineer thing..     The irony is that without daves video i woudl have never known about this, and i now i do.

A few people have said I was "a bit harsh" and shouldn't have "picked on" students and/or a university team.
My response is several fold:
a) I don't know what people mean by "a bit harsh"? A bit harsh because I actually did a video on it at all?, or a bit harsh in the things I said? If it's the latter then I think I was pretty generous and praised their chip several times. If it's the former, then see the comment below.
b) They aren't students, and this isn't student project. Students may have worked on it I don't know, but that's beside the point
c) This isn't some research paper or research project, I would never "pick on" anything research related or a published paper etc.
d) IIRC they actually invited engineering feedback in their video
e) They very deliberately went public with slick marketing for this thing they are looking to eventually sell . A slick promo video and demo. A slick website blog type page etc. They went to a lot of effort to do all this. It has become a commercial public product and that makes it fair game.
f) They were wrong, and have admitted as much.

What is "a bit harsh" anyway? Because I spoke my opinion? Because I spoke my opinion and I have a big audience? They way I said things? My tone?
Once you put something out for public consumption and comment then you can expect public feedback, especially in the science and engineering community from your peers, it is entirely to be expected.
People expect me to speak my mind (and I don't know anything else), so it's either the video I made, or no video at all.
Should a university team be immune to such criticism? No way.
Should they be able to operate in an all-to-familiar "safe space" these days? No frick'n way.

As for why I did the video, it's obviously not because I wanted to ridicule them or whatever, it's because I saw someone posted it on the forum, watched the videos and thought that was marketing BS.
I thought it would make an interesting video, and I was actually rather careful to praise the chip and just call them out on the obviously marketing BS and the niche application for this, both of which are 100% accurate.

A few people seem to not like it purely because it's a university group, but have no problem when it's a company or Kickstarter etc. I don't get that, they all involve real people with feeling and reputations etc. I make the choice based on whether or not it is fair game. They went public with marketing a commercial product, so it's fair game.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 10:10:27 am by EEVblog »
 
The following users thanked this post: digsys

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12001
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #80 on: February 13, 2017, 09:19:09 am »
Quote
Our IR example would have required hundreds of photodiodes in parallel to turn these devices on.

Our ferroelectret and piezo sensor outputs would collapse to nothing if we used these devices. Once you are down to below square centimetres of active sensor material, it is easy to be in the GOhm output impedance range. If you stomped on the material, then you would overvoltage these commercial detectors.

The RF rectenna needs a very low threshold to get any range. That is why we made another version of this detector with a 0.46 V threshold. If you put your rectenna next to the transmitter, you'd over-voltage a commercial voltage detector. If you protect the input with a zener diode, then the leakage kills your range. We then found, that the 100pA input current of this lower threshold device, made the range worse, so we went back to using our 6pA input device with the slightly higher threshold.
That's exactly the sort of thing you should be featuring in videos & appnotes, not pointless TV demos.
These things are non-obvious to people who haven't worked in this area, so you need to educate potential customers as to exactly what the issues are and why your device solves a problem, and where it has advantages over other solutions.

 
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 
The following users thanked this post: Bristol Energy

Offline Bristol Energy

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 10
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #81 on: February 13, 2017, 09:42:50 am »
What is "a bit harsh" anyway? Because I spoke my opinion? Because I spoke my opinion and I have a big audience?

I'm enjoying the sensible discussion of our work here on this forum. It's the sort of thing we miss while we're stuck in the lab for years. We are not students, but, apart from me, the team are young researchers. I've re-edited our three videos following your video feedback. Dave was right to say that the TV video was misleading.

Dave, you have a big diverse audience, and that is important, and hard to cater for.
As we have seen from the aggressive comments and under the busted video and our videos, some of your audience take your message as being "I hate the bullshit research that University X is conducting, which is just smoke and mirrors". Not all, but still enough to be scary. Some respected bloggers have suggested there are simple ways of doing what we do, which has been taken as proof that funding is being wasted. Your viewers trust you, and to some, the good message is not coming through, and all our videos, even the RF one, were getting mostly dislikes and aggressive comments, as soon as your video went up. 

I think your message is twofold:
(1) Good: "They have a good research outcome (the chip, not the TV), with good characteristics (datasheet) with no competition (yet) in niche areas (sensor-driven stuff)",
(2) Bad: "They have poor demos because the marketing has made the demo look like the target application (which it is not), and for this apparent application, they have neglected to describe the remaining power drains, by implying wrongly that the total system power was zero, when it was only that of the sensor that was addressed. Their product has narrower use than they are implying, and they need to find the right kind of demos."

So whilst I see that you are saying lots of nice things about our chip (thanks), as you start and end with (2), thousands of viewers don't appear to see (1).

Anyway, I'm taking this all as a good lesson in life, and hope we talk more about the science. No hard feelings.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29685
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #82 on: February 13, 2017, 10:01:03 am »
Dave, you have a big diverse audience, and that is important, and hard to cater for.
As we have seen from the aggressive comments and under the busted video and our videos, some of your audience take your message as being "I hate the bullshit research that University X is conducting, which is just smoke and mirrors".

I thought I was quite clear in the video (more than once?) that I was not criticising the research, but the marketing and demo example.
Unfortunately it doesn't matter how careful I am in explaining things, even repeatedly, there will be people who will not hear it and will only hear what they want to hear. This happens with almost every one of my videos in some form.

Quote
Some respected bloggers have suggested there are simple ways of doing what we do, which has been taken as proof that funding is being wasted.

The good part about that is that no respected and knowledgeable blogger in the field will say that any research is wasted.
Joe Average though is another unpredictable ball-game.
Well, actually, Joe Average is quite predictable in statistical terms. The bigger the view numbers the wider the "Niceness bell curve" and you start to get the hater outliers.

Quote
Your viewers trust you, and to some, the good message is not coming through, and all our videos, even the RF one, were getting mostly dislikes and aggressive comments, as soon as your video went up. 

Aggressive comments are always regrettable, but unfortunately is the nature of the internet. I did see however that negative comments were there that pre-dated my video.

Quote
I think your message is twofold:
(1) Good: "They have a good research outcome (the chip, not the TV), with good characteristics (datasheet) with no competition (yet) in niche areas (sensor-driven stuff)",
(2) Bad: "They have poor demos because the marketing has made the demo look like the target application (which it is not), and for this apparent application, they have neglected to describe the remaining power drains, by implying wrongly that the total system power was zero, when it was only that of the sensor that was addressed. Their product has narrower use than they are implying, and they need to find the right kind of demos."

That's spot-on.
Of course there was never bad intent in the way I did the video or what I said or the way I said it. As per all my videos, it's just me commenting on what comes to mind on a topic I found interesting.

Quote
So whilst I see that you are saying lots of nice things about our chip (thanks), as you start and end with (2), thousands of viewers don't appear to see (1).
Anyway, I'm taking this all as a good lesson in life, and hope we talk more about the science. No hard feelings.

Thanks. And that's the right attitude to have in these case, and is the way that most people and companies I've criticised have responded. And they have almost always found it ends up being a positive constructive result in the end.
Just coming on this forum and being honest and willing to discuss earns huge points with the community.
As noted above, I don't think there is any way to avoid people taking some things the wrong way.
I hope some good can come from it. As they say, all publicity is good publicity  ;D
 

Offline NANDBlog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4443
  • Country: nl
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #83 on: February 13, 2017, 10:07:24 am »
OK, we know the following:
Microcontrollers listening to IR signals take microamps of power.
The SMPS in the TV is really inefficient, running at 10% or less.
A typical lithium battery will run a microcontroller for years, and it has the energy to start the SMPS.

So I think we know what to do. Just put a lithium primary battery into the TV and run the standby power from that. Saves a ton of energy, and on the plus side, it will run out of power after years, so you will be forced to buy a new TV, solving planned obsolescence. It also floods the market with perfectly good TVs, which can be repaired with minimal soldering skills. Synergy! I'm quite sure marketing weasels would think this at least.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29685
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #84 on: February 13, 2017, 10:14:06 am »
OK, we know the following:
Microcontrollers listening to IR signals take microamps of power.
The SMPS in the TV is really inefficient, running at 10% or less.
A typical lithium battery will run a microcontroller for years, and it has the energy to start the SMPS.
So I think we know what to do. Just put a lithium primary battery into the TV and run the standby power from that.

No need to do that, just suck the uA from the mains.
Like I showed in the video:


No need for a battery or harvested power, just an existing well designed integrated low standby SMPS solution.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 10:36:43 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline StuUK

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 388
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #85 on: February 13, 2017, 10:26:27 am »
Personally i think Dave was a bit harsh.. But thats his call, his forum and Blog.   

Nope,and personally I'm fed up with overhyped marketing BS coming out of Universities, it puts them firmly in the same camp as everyone else (companies, kick-starters etc) who use deceptive marketing like this, so you get what you deserve. Disappointed that such a good UK university is doing this!
 

Offline jonovid

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 777
  • Country: au
    • JONOVID
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #86 on: February 13, 2017, 02:17:16 pm »
it would be totally amazing if the television was cordless and powered itself for 5 yrs without emitting any radiation.  :-DD
But alas micro energy harvesting in AC powered home appliances is all a bit pointless .  But if you can get a 30% energy saving on a 3kw electric stove  or air conditioner design, then good.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 02:33:58 pm by jonovid »
Hobby of evil genius      basic knowledge of electronics
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17657
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #87 on: February 13, 2017, 04:10:20 pm »
Even if not immediately identifiable as having any commercial viability in itself, I look at it like research brainstorming - it could spark something brilliant.  This could be some bizarre application that was not immediately apparent, or a stepping stone for someone to develop something else.
I would be stunned if there is not some immediate niche application for this chip, because AFAIK there is not an equivalent "harness energy, trigger output" kind of chip?
Those who don't think there is an app probably just haven't thought hard enough or aren't involved in an area that needs it.
There will no doubt be some out there that see it and go "wow, that is just does what I need for my dooflewinkle project".
Come to think of it. This chip may be interesting for more complex (microcontroller) based circuits. In those you usually have to leave the microcontroller powered in order to wait for a wake-up event. This means there will be a regulator and other circuitry on all the time and currents quickly add up to the 100uA ball park even if you switch off power to parts of the circuit. A chip which can make do with the power coming from (for example) a piezo based push button could eliminate all the tedious (software) work of putting a microcontroller to sleep and use cheaper parts which don't need to be ultra low power.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
The following users thanked this post: Bristol Energy

Offline ScottK

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 11
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #88 on: February 13, 2017, 06:50:21 pm »
Anyway, I'm taking this all as a good lesson in life, and hope we talk more about the science. No hard feelings.

It is a good lesson, and better learnt before vast sums of money have been invested by people who've got unrealistic expectations. I saw this happen far to often during my foray into the world of angel capital, where exuberant entrepreneurs waxed rhapsodic about their cool new ideas to potential investors with no technical background.

Your technology is impressive, and you have described just why that is so. To power up, glitch free, on picowatts of power is terribly difficult. That said, is the greatest potential for the technology in chips, or as a tool set for chip designers? You've already mentioned interest in more complex functions, that makes sense to me.

I was completely turned off by the marketing video, but I'm equally intrigued by your explanation of the benefit of reducing the loading on sensors by orders of magnitude. Most of us are not accustomed to working in the world of fA and pA and so we may not be aware of interesting things you can do there, like get 0.6V from a small area photodiode illuminated by a remote control 3 meters away. While you're at it, discuss PCB manufacturing techniques to keep leakage from ruining your day, I'm sure you've encountered this in your research and know it'll stop customers dead in their tracks if they don't address it.

 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12001
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #89 on: February 13, 2017, 07:47:18 pm »
Come to think of it. This chip may be interesting for more complex (microcontroller) based circuits. In those you usually have to leave the microcontroller powered in order to wait for a wake-up event. This means there will be a regulator and other circuitry on all the time and currents quickly add up to the 100uA ball park even if you switch off power to parts of the circuit. A chip which can make do with the power coming from (for example) a piezo based push button could eliminate all the tedious (software) work of putting a microcontroller to sleep and use cheaper parts which don't need to be ultra low power.
You'd be doing a pretty poor job if it was taking that much. Any decent MCU with a low- power regulator can easily get well below 10uA in a sleep mode which can be woken periodically by watchdog, 32K crystal and external edge.
 
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 
The following users thanked this post: firewalker

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17657
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #90 on: February 13, 2017, 08:33:55 pm »
Come to think of it. This chip may be interesting for more complex (microcontroller) based circuits. In those you usually have to leave the microcontroller powered in order to wait for a wake-up event. This means there will be a regulator and other circuitry on all the time and currents quickly add up to the 100uA ball park even if you switch off power to parts of the circuit. A chip which can make do with the power coming from (for example) a piezo based push button could eliminate all the tedious (software) work of putting a microcontroller to sleep and use cheaper parts which don't need to be ultra low power.
You'd be doing a pretty poor job if it was taking that much. Any decent MCU with a low- power regulator can easily get well below 10uA in a sleep mode which can be woken periodically by watchdog, 32K crystal and external edge.
With a single MCU on a 3V coin cell you can easely reach sub uA currents but that is not always the case. In some circuits it is not just the MCU (which usually draws more than the datasheet promises because you have to leave more stuff on to make it all work) but also the regulator (think about using a battery >>5V) and other circuitry as well. In those cases it all adds up to a whole lot of (worst case) current.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 08:35:42 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12001
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #91 on: February 13, 2017, 08:48:47 pm »
Come to think of it. This chip may be interesting for more complex (microcontroller) based circuits. In those you usually have to leave the microcontroller powered in order to wait for a wake-up event. This means there will be a regulator and other circuitry on all the time and currents quickly add up to the 100uA ball park even if you switch off power to parts of the circuit. A chip which can make do with the power coming from (for example) a piezo based push button could eliminate all the tedious (software) work of putting a microcontroller to sleep and use cheaper parts which don't need to be ultra low power.
You'd be doing a pretty poor job if it was taking that much. Any decent MCU with a low- power regulator can easily get well below 10uA in a sleep mode which can be woken periodically by watchdog, 32K crystal and external edge.
With a single MCU on a 3V coin cell you can easely reach sub uA currents but that is not always the case. In some circuits it is not just the MCU (which usually draws more than the datasheet promises because you have to leave more stuff on to make it all work) but also the regulator (think about using a battery >>5V) and other circuitry as well. In those cases it all adds up to a whole lot of (worst case) current.
There are plenty of regulators which only draw a few uA quiescent current, some with inputs up to 24v ( e.g. Holtek HT7150)
 If anything else is drawing power you should be turning it off.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline trophosphere

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 217
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #92 on: February 13, 2017, 09:10:06 pm »
With a single MCU on a 3V coin cell you can easely reach sub uA currents but that is not always the case. In some circuits it is not just the MCU (which usually draws more than the datasheet promises because you have to leave more stuff on to make it all work) but also the regulator (think about using a battery >>5V) and other circuitry as well. In those cases it all adds up to a whole lot of (worst case) current.

Along with shutting down external circuits when not in use, I will sometimes use this circuit to expand Vin range with a regulator such as this (20nA quiescent current) for very low power applications if a battery with a high voltage source is needed. Usually one would choose a battery whose nominal voltage is closer to your system's operating voltage  and use a boost converter if a higher voltage is required as you can turn that off as well when not needed.
 

Offline Bristol Energy

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 10
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #93 on: February 13, 2017, 10:29:58 pm »
I wonder, how does it react when powering a device off? For example, suppose it is a device which saves log files to flash storage during the shutdown sequence (like with some entry level NAS devices, and routers), does the circuit wait for the load to drop below a certain threshold, or does it simple toggle on when one pulse is given, and then toggle off when another pulse is given?

Our detector power-gates the TV into standby mode.

We have used a passive OR logic function to power-gate the regular receiver circuit, TV processor etc. In this way, either the sensor-driven detector or the TV's processor can hold the system on. So when the TV is on, it can keep itself including the regular receiver circuit on, and when it shuts down, it does so because this regular circuit has received the off signal. The TV shuts down as usual. Once the processor is in its listening-only mode, the signal from the processor goes low, and now it's up to our detector to keep the system on. But at that point, you're probably not pressing the on-button of the remote, so the OR has no input, and the whole system shuts down.

One problem for us was that the demodulation is carried out by the TV's processor which takes a long time to boot. We would need a microcontroller to start up quickly (e.g. TI uC with sub-100us startup) so that demodulation happens quickly. Then we wouldn't need our two button presses.
Another problem is that the filtering out of ambient light needs to be passive. We don't know much about optical filtering, we are using off-the-shelf parts.

Also, as I have added to the second half of the re-edited video, we need to working on passive ways of filtering out ambient light. Resonant techniques and anti-parallel diodes using ideas from this patent: US 4982081 A are giving us decent results. Does anyone know of other techniques?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 08:11:33 am by Bristol Energy »
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17657
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #94 on: February 13, 2017, 10:52:48 pm »
With a single MCU on a 3V coin cell you can easely reach sub uA currents but that is not always the case. In some circuits it is not just the MCU (which usually draws more than the datasheet promises because you have to leave more stuff on to make it all work) but also the regulator (think about using a battery >>5V) and other circuitry as well. In those cases it all adds up to a whole lot of (worst case) current.

Along with shutting down external circuits when not in use, I will sometimes use this circuit to expand Vin range with a regulator such as this (20nA quiescent current) for very low power applications if a battery with a high voltage source is needed. Usually one would choose a battery whose nominal voltage is closer to your system's operating voltage  and use a boost converter if a higher voltage is required as you can turn that off as well when not needed.
Did you check the datasheet on that 20nA regulator? It says typical and no maximum. Also the regulation is piss-poor. I wouldn't design this thing in IF I could look past the 'Microchip' brand.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline trophosphere

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 217
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #95 on: February 13, 2017, 11:04:58 pm »
Did you check the datasheet on that 20nA regulator? It says typical and no maximum. Also the regulation is piss-poor. I wouldn't design this thing in IF I could look past the 'Microchip' brand.

Yup. Checked it. Used it multiple times. Current is about 10ish nA for many projects for all possible operating scenarios so no problem at all. Regulation is fine for powering a microcontroller, sensors, and a bluetooth transceiver from a battery. You don't have to go for the most stable and accurate component every time - such as people that purchase the latest and greatest and in the end it doesn't make a difference. Design to your given specifications with a sane overhead and everyone is happy.
 

Offline Bristol Energy

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 10
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #96 on: February 13, 2017, 11:05:54 pm »
While you're at it, discuss PCB manufacturing techniques to keep leakage from ruining your day, I'm sure you've encountered this in your research and know it'll stop customers dead in their tracks if they don't address it.

We lacquer the board as soon as they are made or get them done professionally. Or you'll get soon get GOhms between tracks and 100s of pA leaking away.
We might do a video on low power measurements, I think people might find that useful.
 
The following users thanked this post: deephaven, newbrain

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29685
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #97 on: February 14, 2017, 12:09:46 am »
We might do a video on low power measurements, I think people might find that useful.

Please do, there is a distinct lack of ultra low power measurement and technique videos.
 
The following users thanked this post: Brumby

Offline CJay

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3321
  • Country: gb
  • M0UAW
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #98 on: February 14, 2017, 10:40:33 am »
Top of my head, 'sealed for life remote controls', a piezo film deforms when a button is pressed and powers up the micro which does the 'usual' remote control thing before powering down to zero power when the user has finished pressing buttons.

Wide area distributed environmental sensors that wake and gather data when energised by tuned circuit (RFID already does this but can't manage the wake on sensor value change bit AFAIK)

I see the idea as more 'proof of concept' and it could be sold as IP to a microcontroller manufacturer for the first zero power standby product?

A little more thought would/could produce more ideas but I think while it's far from a useless product, it's more of a solution looking for a problem, one of those neat ideas which is intellectually good but perhaps too niche or before its time?

Perhaps it could be used as proof of concept as I can see it might be useful for integrati

M0UAW
 

Offline digsys

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2037
  • Country: au
    • DIGSYS
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #99 on: February 14, 2017, 11:25:32 am »
Quote from: trophosphere
... I will sometimes use this circuit to expand Vin range ...
But that increases Vmin, negating the LDO advantage. What DO do you see?
Hello <tap> <tap> .. is this thing on?
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12001
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #100 on: February 14, 2017, 11:47:28 am »
Top of my head, 'sealed for life remote controls', a piezo film deforms when a button is pressed and powers up the micro which does the 'usual' remote control thing before powering down to zero power when the user has finished pressing buttons.

A finger on a piezo would easily produce enough energy to detect and wake a battery-powered MCU easily.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline NANDBlog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4443
  • Country: nl
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #101 on: February 14, 2017, 11:54:40 am »
Top of my head, 'sealed for life remote controls', a piezo film deforms when a button is pressed and powers up the micro which does the 'usual' remote control thing before powering down to zero power when the user has finished pressing buttons.

A finger on a piezo would easily produce enough energy to detect and wake a battery-powered MCU easily.
Actually, there are remote controllers which work without battery.
http://www.allocacoc.com/Product/detail/id/98/product_group_id/59.html
So whatever RF magic they are doing, the press of a button stores enough energy to do it.
 

Offline Zbig

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 856
  • Country: pl
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #102 on: February 14, 2017, 01:11:57 pm »
Top of my head, 'sealed for life remote controls', a piezo film deforms when a button is pressed and powers up the micro which does the 'usual' remote control thing before powering down to zero power when the user has finished pressing buttons.

A finger on a piezo would easily produce enough energy to detect and wake a battery-powered MCU easily.
Actually, there are remote controllers which work without battery.
http://www.allocacoc.com/Product/detail/id/98/product_group_id/59.html
So whatever RF magic they are doing, the press of a button stores enough energy to do it.

I'm using Philips Hue Tap switches around my house - battery-less lighting controllers. They use integrated energy-harvesting transducer/RF transmitter combo by a company called Enocean. There's a teardown even over at https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/08/gallery-dissecting-the-philips-hue-tap-wireless-battery-less-controller/. Please note, however, that "Tap" is a bit of a stretch here but, on the other hand, I could understand that "Philips Hue Press-it-like-you-mean-it" wouldn't be as catchy name marketing-wise.

EDIT:
Chances are the Allocacoc cubes are using the same Enocean technology. BTW, don't buy these (Allocacoc's PowerCubes, that is). I've got the regular one (no remote, just dumb multi-socket extension cube) and, apart of looking "oh so trendy and minimalistic", they are terrible. I had to force the plugs into mine so hard I actually ruined the protection prong receptacle in one of my CEE 7/7 plugs.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 01:23:48 pm by Zbig »
 

Offline f4eru

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 550
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #103 on: February 14, 2017, 01:29:03 pm »
it would be totally amazing if the television was cordless and powered itself for 5 yrs without emitting any radiation.  :-DD
yeah. A TV needs to emit some photons at least  ^-^
 

Offline jonovid

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 777
  • Country: au
    • JONOVID
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #104 on: February 14, 2017, 01:40:46 pm »
having a TV remote control which work without battery is a interesting idea. solar cells indoors? we have Solar powered calculators so why not a TV remote control?  surface area of a TV remote should be large enough? add a super cup if needed.  if all else fails you can have it charged by shaking it! adding a linear generator. cannot be more odd then a wind up smartphone.   ;D
Hobby of evil genius      basic knowledge of electronics
 

Offline Zbig

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 856
  • Country: pl
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #105 on: February 14, 2017, 02:18:46 pm »
having a TV remote control which work without battery is a interesting idea. solar cells indoors? we have Solar powered calculators so why not a TV remote control?  surface area of a TV remote should be large enough? add a super cup if needed.  if all else fails you can have it charged by shaking it! adding a linear generator. cannot be more odd then a wind up smartphone.   ;D

You'd have a hard time explaining to the potential customer why it's worth paying for over the regular one that lasts on the factory-provided batteries for the whole lifetime of the appliance.
 

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7218
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #106 on: February 14, 2017, 04:01:33 pm »
Top of my head, 'sealed for life remote controls', a piezo film deforms when a button is pressed and powers up the micro which does the 'usual' remote control thing before powering down to zero power when the user has finished pressing buttons.

A finger on a piezo would easily produce enough energy to detect and wake a battery-powered MCU easily.
Actually, there are remote controllers which work without battery.
http://www.allocacoc.com/Product/detail/id/98/product_group_id/59.html
So whatever RF magic they are doing, the press of a button stores enough energy to do it.

the very first wireless remote controls were simply mechanical on the transmitter side. they wire simply tuned piece of metal. clicking produced an ultrasonic 'click' of a specific frequency. the receiver picked that up.
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline trophosphere

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 217
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #107 on: February 14, 2017, 04:06:52 pm »
Quote from: trophosphere
... I will sometimes use this circuit to expand Vin range ...
But that increases Vmin, negating the LDO advantage. What DO do you see?

Did you even read what I was replying to? The requirement was that it had to accept a higher Vin.
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9980
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #108 on: February 14, 2017, 04:14:36 pm »
A finger on a piezo would easily produce enough energy to detect and wake a battery-powered MCU easily.

So would any sort of vibration, loud noise, etc.

The thing would be constantly waking up.  :scared:
 

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7218
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #109 on: February 14, 2017, 04:19:15 pm »
i have an observation to make.

It is pointless to make these tv sets zero power. here is why :
a well designed power brick runs below 1 watt of standby power.
you need a minimum load on the power grid. you can't simply crank up a powerplant when a bunch of people tune in for their favorite show. and crank it down when they all go to bed. even if nobody consumes power : the powerplant is still running. the generators are still running, the steamboiler still boiling . so no matter what : energy is being produced. Whether it is is used or not. the turbines need to spin at constant RPM.

an average powerplant is 300 megawatt. 1 watt standby power .. that is a lot of TV's... and there are many powerplants.


besides. if you really want to implement this : how will it disciminate between remote control signals. if i use the remote for the stereo the tv will react too as it cannot decode the signal and has no way of knowing what remote is used.

and since modern tv's all run a flavor of lunacy linux , it takes at least 10 seconds for them to boot , at which point they cannot figure out anymore if the signal was indeed for them or not ...

Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17657
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #110 on: February 14, 2017, 05:02:32 pm »
It is pointless to make these tv sets zero power. here is why :
a well designed power brick runs below 1 watt of standby power.
you need a minimum load on the power grid. you can't simply crank up a powerplant when a bunch of people tune in for their favorite show. and crank it down when they all go to bed. even if nobody consumes power : the powerplant is still running. the generators are still running, the steamboiler still boiling . so no matter what : energy is being produced. Whether it is is used or not. the turbines need to spin at constant RPM.
Are you serious?  :palm:
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline CJay

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3321
  • Country: gb
  • M0UAW
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #111 on: February 14, 2017, 05:08:26 pm »
Top of my head, 'sealed for life remote controls', a piezo film deforms when a button is pressed and powers up the micro which does the 'usual' remote control thing before powering down to zero power when the user has finished pressing buttons.

A finger on a piezo would easily produce enough energy to detect and wake a battery-powered MCU easily.

Definitely, yes, but the micro would be in sleep instead of powered down, that might be a piffling difference in current consumption and not worth doing I suppose but it was an idea that sprang to mind.
M0UAW
 

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7218
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #112 on: February 14, 2017, 05:12:52 pm »
It is pointless to make these tv sets zero power. here is why :
a well designed power brick runs below 1 watt of standby power.
you need a minimum load on the power grid. you can't simply crank up a powerplant when a bunch of people tune in for their favorite show. and crank it down when they all go to bed. even if nobody consumes power : the powerplant is still running. the generators are still running, the steamboiler still boiling . so no matter what : energy is being produced. Whether it is is used or not. the turbines need to spin at constant RPM.
Are you serious?  :palm:
yes i am.

there are much much bigger power consumers on the grid. this is solving the wrong problem. sure it helps, no doubt about that.
power companies run complicated models to figure out when load shedding will happen so they can predict when to spin up or down a plant. that takes time.
There was a documentary about that on NPR i believe , or natgeo. saw this a couple of years ago. little standby consumers in the sub 1 watt class are irellevant.
all the more if you consider the delta between standby an operational. you are going form 1 watt to 250 watt. standby consumption is not even 0.5% of operational usage. nothing more than a rounding error. now, if your operational usage is only 5 watt and your standby consumption is 2 watt .. then you have a problem...
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9980
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #113 on: February 14, 2017, 05:20:35 pm »
there are much much bigger power consumers on the grid. this is solving the wrong problem. sure it helps, no doubt about that.
power companies run complicated models to figure out when load shedding will happen so they can predict when to spin up or down a plant. that takes time.

"complicated models"?  :-DD

Mostly they watch TV. Demand goes up massively when the adverts come on in the middle of a popular show because everybody goes and puts the kettle on to make a cup of tea (or if you live in the USA: Open up a two-story refrigerator to grab a beer/soda and let all the cold out then microwave something with "cheez" in its name).

 
The following users thanked this post: nugglix, kalleboo

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9242
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #114 on: February 14, 2017, 06:51:32 pm »
The standby power of a single TV is irrelevant, but there are probably around 300 million TVs in the US alone, what's 300 million times 1W standby? That starts to look like a significant amount of power. Probably most of those millions of TVs are all in standby from about midnight to 5am or so, and a large number of them are going to be in standby all day too while people are at work.
 

Offline mrpackethead

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2799
  • Country: nz
  • D Size Cell
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #115 on: February 14, 2017, 07:12:06 pm »
Heres some more marketing BS..  Good on you Altium.
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12001
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #116 on: February 14, 2017, 09:02:02 pm »
besides. if you really want to implement this : how will it disciminate between remote control signals. if i use the remote for the stereo the tv will react too as it cannot decode the signal and has no way of knowing what remote is used.

Easy - wake up, look at the code, if it's not for me, go back to sleep
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline Delta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1225
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #117 on: February 14, 2017, 09:22:45 pm »
The standby power of a single TV is irrelevant, but there are probably around 300 million TVs in the US alone, what's 300 million times 1W standby? That starts to look like a significant amount of power. Probably most of those millions of TVs are all in standby from about midnight to 5am or so, and a large number of them are going to be in standby all day too while people are at work.

Lots of little numbers add up to a big number, but that big number is then vanishingly small in the grand scheme of things.

300 million times 1W is indeed a 300MW, but 300MW is bugger all compared to total US demand.
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9242
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #118 on: February 14, 2017, 09:28:31 pm »
300MW is 300MW, no matter how much the grand total is, and that's only looking at TVs, and assuming that they're all modern Energy Star compliant ones, which they're not. It all adds up.

I see a lot of people have this mindset with money. "Oh that's only $5" Yeah well $5 here, $10 there, repeat that several times a day and pretty soon we're talking real money, then they wonder why they're always broke.
 

Offline digsys

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2037
  • Country: au
    • DIGSYS
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #119 on: February 14, 2017, 10:49:20 pm »
Quote from: trophosphere
Quote from: trophosphere
... I will sometimes use this circuit to expand Vin range ...
But that increases Vmin, negating the LDO advantage. What DO do you see?
Did you even read what I was replying to? The requirement was that it had to accept a higher Vin.
LOL .. chill :-)  DO is meant to mean DropOut, maybe I should've written it as D/O. Q2: Yes I do read everything before I reply. Q3: Yes, I understand you're looking for
a higher Vin, and I do this myself all the time, but the question I was trying to ask is - How much Vmin do you sacrifice for a higher Vin. When "one" uses an LDO,
it is "usually" because they need a low-drop-out, hence the term :-)
Hello <tap> <tap> .. is this thing on?
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17657
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #120 on: February 15, 2017, 12:20:44 am »
The standby power of a single TV is irrelevant, but there are probably around 300 million TVs in the US alone, what's 300 million times 1W standby? That starts to look like a significant amount of power.
Exactly! It is about the big numbers (and a TV is only 1 of 20 to 30 devices in standby in one home) and what is needed in the very near future are power plants which can switch rapidly and/or battery storage.

@free_electron: Why do you think Tesla is entering the home battery storage market? Answer to a rethorical question: power companies are going to invest big in this to even out the variations in supply and demand.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline trophosphere

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 217
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #121 on: February 15, 2017, 01:12:52 am »
LOL .. chill :-)  DO is meant to mean DropOut, maybe I should've written it as D/O. Q2: Yes I do read everything before I reply. Q3: Yes, I understand you're looking for
a higher Vin, and I do this myself all the time, but the question I was trying to ask is - How much Vmin do you sacrifice for a higher Vin. When "one" uses an LDO,
it is "usually" because they need a low-drop-out, hence the term :-)

I'd say when a battery voltage is stated as "battery >>5V" and low power systems are usually in the 1.8-3.3v range then an increased Vmin requirement would not matter much. Just because you have a regulator that has low-dropout functionality doesn't mean you need to use it. Low drop out and low quiescent current kind of go hand in hand and thus designers have designed to those specifications. IMHO it would be a waste of time to go out of the way to find a regulator that has the specification of having low quiescent current while NOT being a low dropout unless the problem some how called for it which it did not.

Maybe I should have posted something like this at the beginning but I have never used it before so I'm not familiar with it.
 

Online StillTrying

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2119
  • Country: se
  • Country: Broken Britain
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #122 on: February 15, 2017, 01:42:46 am »
Seems nobody has come up with an application ...yet.
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7218
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #123 on: February 15, 2017, 03:08:53 pm »
besides. if you really want to implement this : how will it disciminate between remote control signals. if i use the remote for the stereo the tv will react too as it cannot decode the signal and has no way of knowing what remote is used.

Easy - wake up, look at the code, if it's not for me, go back to sleep
ehhh.
i press a button. the remote control sends a burst of pulses. this energizes the special chip , which then wakes up the tv. by this time the infrared burst is gone ...
unless that magic chip can store and replay ...

and for every buttonpress all my devices wake up check code and go back to sleep ... you'd have to implement another small cpu dedicated to that task. and sleep. it is power off. so a total cold start.

doesn;t work.
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7218
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #124 on: February 15, 2017, 03:10:59 pm »

@free_electron: Why do you think Tesla is entering the home battery storage market? Answer to a rethorical question: power companies are going to invest big in this to even out the variations in supply and demand.
because batteries react much faster than you can crank up a powerplant...
and because you install batteries at point of load. which means you dont have to work on the distribution grid that is creaky and overloaded.
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12001
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #125 on: February 15, 2017, 03:34:46 pm »
besides. if you really want to implement this : how will it disciminate between remote control signals. if i use the remote for the stereo the tv will react too as it cannot decode the signal and has no way of knowing what remote is used.

Easy - wake up, look at the code, if it's not for me, go back to sleep
ehhh.
i press a button. the remote control sends a burst of pulses. this energizes the special chip , which then wakes up the tv. by this time the infrared burst is gone ...
unless that magic chip can store and replay ...

and for every buttonpress all my devices wake up check code and go back to sleep ... you'd have to implement another small cpu dedicated to that task. and sleep. it is power off. so a total cold start.

doesn;t work.

Most remotes send repeated codes over tens to hundreds of mS, often for as long as the button is held. As long as the magic chip can act in a reasonable time, there should be time to wake an MCU to decode the signal. Worst case the user holds the button till the device turns on. Power lost by'off' devices waking and sleeping would be negligible.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline dr.diesel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2123
  • Country: us
  • Cramming the magic smoke back in...
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #126 on: February 15, 2017, 03:35:46 pm »
I wrote quite a bit on power plant controls systems a few years back, but don't hesitate to inquire further.

But f_e is right, coal is SLOW, VERY SLOW.   A 500MW generating unit operates most comfortably at 2MW/min load change and has a minimum of generation point of ~250MW.

Starting a cold coal unit from an offline state takes about 10 hours before it can hit line.  (several hours of variation here depending on many factors)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 09:45:50 pm by dr.diesel »
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9242
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #127 on: February 15, 2017, 09:29:31 pm »
I'm assuming you're talking about a coal/oil fired boiler supplying a steam turbine here? I'm no expert when it comes to power plants but I was under the impression that the natural gas fired gas turbine peaking plants could start and stop on short notice, hence the name.


Out here quite a lot of our power comes from hydro dams. The Grand Coulee has a storage facility where water is pumped uphill to a reservoir during times of low demand and flows back down through the turbines during peak loads.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 10:46:34 pm by james_s »
 

Offline dr.diesel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2123
  • Country: us
  • Cramming the magic smoke back in...
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #128 on: February 15, 2017, 09:41:46 pm »
I'm assuming you're talking about a coil/oil fired boiler supplying a steam turbine here? I'm no expert when it comes to power plants but I was under the impression that the natural gas fired gas turbine peaking plants could start and stop on short notice, hence the name.

Yes, you are correct, fixed above, thanks.  On standby natural gas peakers can be online in about 10min and ramp fairly quick.  The combined cycle larger units are much much slower than peakers, but faster than straight coal.

Offline mrpackethead

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2799
  • Country: nz
  • D Size Cell
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #129 on: February 16, 2017, 07:20:02 pm »
I coudl't help compare two eevblog videos..  The one where Dave mocks the University for Marketing BS.  And then a video where 5 unreleased scopes mysteriously turn up in the dumpster.. 

'Puffery' is a well used concept in marketing, we all laughed when we saw the scope in the dumpster and any resonable person would be able to assume that this was just for fun..    But its still BS in its purest form.

Marketing is just that.. a process to get your attention.. Dave you got my attention with the dumpster dive and the University got my attention with the TV stunt.    ( stunt seems a good word for it )..     Both videos hit the mark in terms of getitng my attention..

Its my responsibility of a consumer of the marketing to filter it, and determine the facts.

 #alternativetruth_sometimes_is_fun

On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline tchandler

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 5
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #130 on: February 16, 2017, 08:08:31 pm »
The difference is the intent to deceive. I don't believe Dave had any intent to deceive anyone. It should be obvious to Dave's audience that the latest scope would not be found in the dumpster, that's what makes it a funny joke. Dave was not trying to convince anybody that his dumpster is the best new dumpster technology and can save the world by providing scopes magically. The TV Demo targets the general public (I assume), many people will not understand the nuances of the demonstration and may be lead to believe the technology is being shown to do something it is not.
 

Offline mrpackethead

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2799
  • Country: nz
  • D Size Cell
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #131 on: February 16, 2017, 11:13:26 pm »
The difference is the intent to deceive. I don't believe Dave had any intent to deceive anyone. It should be obvious to Dave's audience that the latest scope would not be found in the dumpster, that's what makes it a funny joke. Dave was not trying to convince anybody that his dumpster is the best new dumpster technology and can save the world by providing scopes magically. The TV Demo targets the general public (I assume), many people will not understand the nuances of the demonstration and may be lead to believe the technology is being shown to do something it is not.

Judging by some of the comments in teh forum and on youtube i'm not so sure some people missed what was very apparently a stunt.   If you did'tn get it was a stunt straight away there was a big giveaway was that when the scope came out of the dumpster it had no probes..  ANd then mysteriously when dave went to use it there was some  brand new probes.. :-)   

Marketing! it just comes in different flavours..   I did'nt feel the university tryed to deceive.. yet others did..    Its just where you draw the line.. and we'll all have different places we put that line.


On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline josecamoessilva

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 64
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #132 on: February 17, 2017, 05:18:15 am »
Yes, you are correct, fixed above, thanks.  On standby natural gas peakers can be online in about 10min and ramp fairly quick.  The combined cycle larger units are much much slower than peakers, but faster than straight coal.

It's been a while since I learned it (80s), but aren't peakers generally combined cycle, with the gas generator + turbine (Brayton) part ramping up fast and the heat exchanger (Rankine) part ramping up somewhat slower? For both flexibility and efficiency. (I have a vague idea in the 80s you could get ~45% chemical to thermal efficiency, I heard now it's up to >60%, so kudos to oil-stained mechanical engineers. I guess they're good for something after all. ;) )

For the lulz: one time I tried to explain the difference between dispatchable and non-dispatchable power to a well-meaning young female environmentalist, who thought a 1GW flex-fuel power plant was basically like a big camping generator, start/stop in seconds.  :-DD
 

Offline Money4Nothing

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 10
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #133 on: February 23, 2017, 07:24:58 pm »
As an electrical engineer myself, I can sympathize with the mistake that Bristol made. You want to give people application ideas for your product to convince them of the value you are offering. Unfortunately, you can make mistakes in applications if you rush in too quickly, and look silly. Unless you have been commissioned to design a solution for a particular problem, sometimes it's just best to offer your product based on its features, and let others decide what applications they want to use it for.

$
 

Offline Jackamus

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 3
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #134 on: February 24, 2017, 07:55:55 pm »
>     This device is exactly what I need for a project I am developing in which battery conversation is of paramount importance. My project is to help the increasing number of people suffering with dementia. I'm sure the readers of this blog will know of someone who suffers in this horrible way.
>     I am new to this blog and I'm astonished at the way negative comments are made. I refer to the cavalier way in which Dave 'busts' Bristol University's UB20M. Perhaps BU could have made a better video and being more precise as to what the UB20M does exactly. They may not be professional video makers but they are certainly professional electrical engineers and should not treated as amateurs. As for using taxpayers money this is a more responsible way of spending than funding some of the utterly useless socio-polico schemes dreamed up in Westminster!
    I found it rather odd that Dave actually attacked individuals, rather than products, read out their names and been cynical about their attempts to explain their stuff. He could have taken the role of educating this audience, but instead whipped them up against BU with his sensationalist manner.

>     However it was clear, that as I read through the comments, I noticed after first making a negative comments, some bloggers back-tracked and reappraised the UB20M in a more positive way.
>
>     When I first looked at this blog I could see that others looking at it would not bother reading any further due to the negative headline. What a pity! Considering how many people visit this blog I would think that it behoves the Administrators to act in an honourable way, when a negative headline is the first comment, to either edit or retract the headline once clarity has been established.
>
>     How about it Dave?

 

Offline Delta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1225
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #135 on: February 24, 2017, 11:34:26 pm »
The original video was outright marketing bullshit.

Dave was 100% correct to call them out.
 

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 9229
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #136 on: February 25, 2017, 01:10:40 am »
The original video was outright marketing bullshit.

Dave was 100% correct to call them out.

That's it in a nutshell.

The serious efforts made by the Bristol team were buried by an extremely poor presentation.  It was that presentation which gave the parameters for the ensuing critical discussion - and based on those parameters, the discussion had only one primary direction that it could go.

To their credit, Bristol came and addressed the discussion and conceded their presentation was not the best.  They then provided contributions to the conversation that changed the discussion parameters, allowing a much more constructive dialogue.

However, the current state is a result of all the previous stages and the history of this topic is what it is.  At each stage, the opinions expressed are valid as at the time they were made - and it would seem ludicrous to suggest we "rewrite history", which is what I hear being put forward.

Even putting the most favourable spin on this and say "20-20 hindsight is a marvelous thing", doesn't mean you expunge the lesson which created the situation that invited such a phrase to be presented.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 01:21:47 am by Brumby »
 

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 9229
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED! <Response: +ve>
« Reply #137 on: February 25, 2017, 01:19:03 am »
Perhaps Dave could add a word or two to the thread title to indicate a response from the subject party and whether that created a more positive (or negative) opinion on the key elements.

Off the top of my head:

Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!  <Response: +ve>
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!  <Response: -ve>
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!  <Response: meh>


Then readers would know there is more to the topic than Dave's original video and member comments....
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 01:24:15 am by Brumby »
 
The following users thanked this post: Jackamus

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29685
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #138 on: February 25, 2017, 02:35:35 am »
>     This device is exactly what I need for a project I am developing in which battery conversation is of paramount importance. My project is to help the increasing number of people suffering with dementia. I'm sure the readers of this blog will know of someone who suffers in this horrible way.
>     I am new to this blog and I'm astonished at the way negative comments are made. I refer to the cavalier way in which Dave 'busts' Bristol University's UB20M.

Go watch the video again and listen. I say good things about the UB20M chip itself, more than once I believe.
I simply called out the marketing BS, which they have basically admitted too, and why they removed and reedited their video.

Quote
>Perhaps BU could have made a better video and being more precise as to what the UB20M does exactly.

They went and did exactly that, taking out the misleading parts.

Quote
>I found it rather odd that Dave actually attacked individuals, rather than products, read out their names and been cynical about their attempts to explain their stuff. He could have taken the role of educating this audience, but instead whipped them up against BU with his sensationalist manner.

Err, they were the ones featured in their own video and are the ones making the statements and claims. Of course I addressed them personally.
I did try to educated my audience, you just don't like the way I did it.

Quote
>     However it was clear, that as I read through the comments, I noticed after first making a negative comments, some bloggers back-tracked and reappraised the UB20M in a more positive way.
>
>     When I first looked at this blog I could see that others looking at it would not bother reading any further due to the negative headline. What a pity! Considering how many people visit this blog I would think that it behoves the Administrators to act in an honourable way, when a negative headline is the first comment, to either edit or retract the headline once clarity has been established.

They asked for their image to be removed from the thumbnail and I did so.
They did not ask for the video to be removed or edited, nor the headline changed.

Quote
>     How about it Dave?

No. The title is not "UB20M chip BUSTED". It is very specifically a claim about the zero TV standby claim.
If people want to take it the other way then there is absolutely no way I can change their mind about doing so. I have already said more than once in the video that there is nothing wrong with the chip itself.
The only other step would be to remove the video entirely.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 02:41:48 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline CCitizenTO

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 39
  • Country: ca
  • What's your favorite element?
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #139 on: February 25, 2017, 03:40:56 am »
That's actually not a zero standby power device, even if the circuitry draws no power. The dissipation of 6ft of typical power cord at Dave's 240V is around half a milliwatt (measured it long ago here in the US (120V) and have used ~20uW/ft as a guess ever since). There's little benefit in setting the standby power bar lower than that for a mains powered design.

No but it's as close to zero as you can possibly get. That said even the wires inside your walls are consuming electricity unless you flip things off at the breaker box.
 

Offline Jackamus

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 3
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #140 on: February 27, 2017, 11:53:21 pm »
What is the EEV blog all about? Critiquing quality of Video presentations, the people appearing in them or could it possible to do with electronic development?
 

Offline Jackamus

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 3
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #141 on: February 28, 2017, 12:00:35 am »
That would be the 'right' way to do it. This should always be about the 'spirit' of the product. Not everyone who comes up with a good idea may be able to put it across in a professional manner. Its their skill as electronic engineers that should reflect their professionalism.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29685
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #142 on: February 28, 2017, 12:11:13 am »
What is the EEV blog all about? Critiquing quality of Video presentations, the people appearing in them or could it possible to do with electronic development?

I think it was pretty darn obvious, I was calling out the BS marketing claims made about a zero power standby TV, that's it.
I stated in the video more than once I had no problem with the chip or the people.
Do people not listen to what I say in the videos? (that's a rhetorical question, this is Youtube  ::) )
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29685
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #143 on: February 28, 2017, 12:13:22 am »
That would be the 'right' way to do it. This should always be about the 'spirit' of the product. Not everyone who comes up with a good idea may be able to put it across in a professional manner. Its their skill as electronic engineers that should reflect their professionalism.

Sure. But when you make very clear public marketing claims, and those claims are BS, then you can be expected to be called out on them.
Welcome to the real world.
 

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 9229
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #144 on: February 28, 2017, 01:16:50 am »
That would be the 'right' way to do it. This should always be about the 'spirit' of the product. Not everyone who comes up with a good idea may be able to put it across in a professional manner. Its their skill as electronic engineers that should reflect their professionalism.

You are being rather naive and idealistic.  Communication is part of the skill set required these days - especially when we have global and instant communications channels available from anywhere.  Their original efforts were as skillful in that area as a dry joint on a PCB.


As Dave said: Welcome to the real world.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf