Author Topic: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!  (Read 30916 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 28636
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« on: February 11, 2017, 09:51:08 am »
Bristol University have a neat new "zero power sensing" chip that takes energy harvested signals and switches an open drain output, the UB20M Voltage Detector.
But the marketing has gone too far when they demo a TV that supposedly has zero standby power. Dave busts this smoke and mirrors demo.

http://www.bristol.ac.uk/engineering/research/em/research/zero-standby-power/
Datasheet: http://www.bristol.ac.uk/media-library/sites/engineering/research/eem-group/zero-standby/UB20M_Datasheet_Rev.1.2.pdf

 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 719
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2017, 10:34:44 am »
.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16799
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2017, 10:39:07 am »
IMHO it is kinda interesting to switch something on with the light received from an infrared transmitter even though their examples and demos are half assed.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Avacee

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 293
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2017, 10:50:32 am »
I want to know how an earthquake generates infra-red radiation to make using that chip in such a sensor worthwhile.
 

Offline Razor512

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 141
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2017, 10:55:52 am »
I feel it could be useful in some cases, though for their examples, it will fail for most devices. For example, many TVs do not respond to a TV  remote for a few seconds when plugged in. For example, on my TV, it takes about 4 seconds before it will even listen for the remote, thus the case will be how long can that device keep the current flowing after it receives the initial trigger.
It will only really be useful for sensor type devices that can be woken up almost instantly so no special initialization process.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 10:58:41 am by Razor512 »
 

Offline rsjsouza

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3097
  • Country: us
  • Eternally curious
    • Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2017, 11:12:21 am »
The idea is interesting, but I agree with you: their usage examples could have been better.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline trophosphere

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 217
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2017, 11:18:08 am »
I have a zero standby power device for AC line powered equipment here: (It can even work from your couch if made long enough)



On a side note, the Youtube video within a Youtube video confused me for a couple seconds as the red time bar wasn't moving yet Dave was still talking.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 28636
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2017, 11:23:46 am »
IMHO it is kinda interesting to switch something on with the light received from an infrared transmitter even though their examples and demos are half assed.

Sure, it's an interesting chip.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 28636
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2017, 11:25:17 am »
I feel it could be useful in some cases, though for their examples, it will fail for most devices. For example, many TVs do not respond to a TV  remote for a few seconds when plugged in. For example, on my TV, it takes about 4 seconds before it will even listen for the remote, thus the case will be how long can that device keep the current flowing after it receives the initial trigger.
It will only really be useful for sensor type devices that can be woken up almost instantly so no special initialization process.

Good point, and you can see that in their original video I think, he's pressing the power button for at least a few seconds to overcome that.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16799
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2017, 11:27:38 am »
I want to know how an earthquake generates infra-red radiation to make using that chip in such a sensor worthwhile.
It just needs some electricity. In case of an earthquake a piezo crystal and a small weight will probably do the trick. 5 years from a 9V block means the sensor is drawing quite a bit of power. Imagine you could replace that with a coin cell (assuming this can provide the power to create a loud enough sound). But then again my experience with earthquakes is limited and I have absolutely no use for a detector.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 11:31:02 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1996
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2017, 12:35:57 pm »
I have a zero standby power device for AC line powered equipment here: (It can even work from your couch if made long enough)



On a side note, the Youtube video within a Youtube video confused me for a couple seconds as the red time bar wasn't moving yet Dave was still talking.
You joke, but they're actually available and very convenient:

http://www.ecoswitch.com.au/
 

Offline trophosphere

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 217
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2017, 12:59:19 pm »
You joke, but they're actually available and very convenient:
...

Nice find. I'm going to get a one as some of my test equipment goes to sleep rather than actually turns off.
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone

Offline rrinker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1810
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2017, 01:25:48 pm »
OMG   :-DD  "Where does it get the power from, the Oompa-Loompas in Willy Wonka's chocolate factory?" I am STILL laughing  :-DD :-DD
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 28636
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2017, 01:33:36 pm »
FYI, I have heard from the head of the group and needless to say they are not happy.
They have been "forced" to remove their videos due to the negative comments left on them ::)
Last I checked several people including Mike had left negative comments a week ago or something like that, so it's not new.
They did ask nicely if I'd change the thumbnail which I have done as a show of good faith.
I don't know if they will respond publicly or not and will not reveal their email response unless they approve.
 

Online Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 8858
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2017, 01:45:49 pm »
A case of a marketing mind overplaying a worthwhile technical achievement and kneecapping it as a result.

The problem with hype is that people are getting savvy - but they really didn't think it through in this case.  We are talking about a chip - not a consumer product.  The target audience for such a chip is going to be in the EE world - where designers have the knowledge and skills to assess the exact capabilities of such a chip and realise that a practical implementation is not going to achieve the ideal being 'sold'.


It's a bit of a shame, really.
 

Offline trophosphere

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 217
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2017, 02:05:39 pm »
FYI, I have heard from the head of the group and needless to say they are not happy.

Hopefully the head of the group is not unhappy about you. He/she should be unhappy towards the person that did the marketing and decided to include the demo of a DC-powered television. That is who the unhappiness should be directed towards.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 02:10:27 pm by trophosphere »
 

Online Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 8858
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2017, 02:12:02 pm »
It occurred to me that they could have saved a lot of negative comment by simply including the plug pack in their power measurements... comparing power consumption at its input for the TV with and without their new chip in play.

Except I don't think the figures would have been anywhere near as impressive.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 28636
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2017, 02:19:15 pm »
It occurred to me that they could have saved a lot of negative comment by simply including the plug pack in their power measurements...

The video would never have made and no one would have battered an eyelid

Quote
comparing power consumption at its input for the TV with and without their new chip in play.
Except I don't think the figures would have been anywhere near as impressive.

I went to check the comments on their own video and I saw a response to Mike's comments left a week ago or something. They were bragging about the hudreds of millions times lower current or something.
It was clearly exaggerated marketing.
But all those comments are now gone as they have removed the videos.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 28636
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2017, 02:22:55 pm »
Hopefully the head of the group is not unhappy about you.

Nope, they are very unhappy with me.
It seems they did not like being criticised and the "bad press" that went along with it.
They seemed fine when people left comments calling BS on their video a week ago, but apparently don't like being called out on a larger public stage.
 

Online Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 8858
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2017, 02:25:48 pm »
BS is BS no matter how big the stage is.


... but single negative comments from individuals won't smart as much as an EE based spotlight.
 

Offline Hensingler

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2017, 03:06:20 pm »
Sure, it's an interesting chip.

Not much of a chip though is it. Is it actually much more than a low threshold N channel MOSFET?

Seems to have a little bit of hysteresis which doesn't seem to be a huge advantage for anything.

 
The following users thanked this post: MarkL

Offline Bristol Energy

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 10
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2017, 04:22:56 pm »
There was absolutely no intention to deceive. We've taken the feedback on board and will edit the videos accordingly. E.g. we'll make it clear that we are only eliminating the power consumed by the TV's standby circuit, not in the adapter.  :-[
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Offline calexanian

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1861
  • Country: us
    • Alex-Tronix
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2017, 05:44:56 pm »
As a community we need to come up with a term for ideas that are non starters, but people have already put all this emotional capital into, but technologically or logically have no leg to stand on. As a company we are bombarded by "Briliant" ideas from people and we have to go through all the technical reasons why it should not, or can not be done, or that it has already been done just to have an emotional response from the "Inventor" that their idea is special.

I blame the faculty at this Uni. Any casual datasheet search would bring you to many devices with this purpose in mind, or as Dave found switch mode controllers that already incorporate low stand by mode.

As far as the 12 volt operated TV set, this smells of a instructor or student adviser not wanting the little students play with real voltage. I would hope that they realize the fundamental error in their methodology here.  Otherwise those kids degrees are not worth the paper (I assume PETA has done away with lambskin) they are printed on.
Charles Alexanian
Alex-Tronix Control Systems
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8163
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2017, 05:49:21 pm »
The only thing that is relevant is the total power consumption, the TV is not much use without the adapter.

That said, I've noticed that the standby consumption of quite a few modern TVs is extremely low. My 60" LCD consumes something like 1W in standby IIRC. Some older gear was ridiculous, I have a powered subwoofer that draws a whopping 18W in standby, exactly the same as it draws when it's on and idle. I'd had it for over a decade by the time I realized this and a quick calculation determined it had consumed around 1MWH in standby over the period I'd owned it.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5074
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2017, 05:56:36 pm »
What about design a power supply where the startup supply for the PWM controller comes from a 5V bias on the secondary side? Then use the 5V from the HDMI input to wake it up. Doesn't work very well with smart TVs, though...

In practice, modern TVs already use very little power in standby.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf