Author Topic: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!  (Read 31768 times)

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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #125 on: February 15, 2017, 03:34:46 pm »
besides. if you really want to implement this : how will it disciminate between remote control signals. if i use the remote for the stereo the tv will react too as it cannot decode the signal and has no way of knowing what remote is used.

Easy - wake up, look at the code, if it's not for me, go back to sleep
ehhh.
i press a button. the remote control sends a burst of pulses. this energizes the special chip , which then wakes up the tv. by this time the infrared burst is gone ...
unless that magic chip can store and replay ...

and for every buttonpress all my devices wake up check code and go back to sleep ... you'd have to implement another small cpu dedicated to that task. and sleep. it is power off. so a total cold start.

doesn;t work.

Most remotes send repeated codes over tens to hundreds of mS, often for as long as the button is held. As long as the magic chip can act in a reasonable time, there should be time to wake an MCU to decode the signal. Worst case the user holds the button till the device turns on. Power lost by'off' devices waking and sleeping would be negligible.
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Online dr.diesel

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Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #126 on: February 15, 2017, 03:35:46 pm »
I wrote quite a bit on power plant controls systems a few years back, but don't hesitate to inquire further.

But f_e is right, coal is SLOW, VERY SLOW.   A 500MW generating unit operates most comfortably at 2MW/min load change and has a minimum of generation point of ~250MW.

Starting a cold coal unit from an offline state takes about 10 hours before it can hit line.  (several hours of variation here depending on many factors)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 09:45:50 pm by dr.diesel »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #127 on: February 15, 2017, 09:29:31 pm »
I'm assuming you're talking about a coal/oil fired boiler supplying a steam turbine here? I'm no expert when it comes to power plants but I was under the impression that the natural gas fired gas turbine peaking plants could start and stop on short notice, hence the name.


Out here quite a lot of our power comes from hydro dams. The Grand Coulee has a storage facility where water is pumped uphill to a reservoir during times of low demand and flows back down through the turbines during peak loads.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 10:46:34 pm by james_s »
 

Online dr.diesel

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Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #128 on: February 15, 2017, 09:41:46 pm »
I'm assuming you're talking about a coil/oil fired boiler supplying a steam turbine here? I'm no expert when it comes to power plants but I was under the impression that the natural gas fired gas turbine peaking plants could start and stop on short notice, hence the name.

Yes, you are correct, fixed above, thanks.  On standby natural gas peakers can be online in about 10min and ramp fairly quick.  The combined cycle larger units are much much slower than peakers, but faster than straight coal.

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #129 on: February 16, 2017, 07:20:02 pm »
I coudl't help compare two eevblog videos..  The one where Dave mocks the University for Marketing BS.  And then a video where 5 unreleased scopes mysteriously turn up in the dumpster.. 

'Puffery' is a well used concept in marketing, we all laughed when we saw the scope in the dumpster and any resonable person would be able to assume that this was just for fun..    But its still BS in its purest form.

Marketing is just that.. a process to get your attention.. Dave you got my attention with the dumpster dive and the University got my attention with the TV stunt.    ( stunt seems a good word for it )..     Both videos hit the mark in terms of getitng my attention..

Its my responsibility of a consumer of the marketing to filter it, and determine the facts.

 #alternativetruth_sometimes_is_fun

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Offline tchandler

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Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #130 on: February 16, 2017, 08:08:31 pm »
The difference is the intent to deceive. I don't believe Dave had any intent to deceive anyone. It should be obvious to Dave's audience that the latest scope would not be found in the dumpster, that's what makes it a funny joke. Dave was not trying to convince anybody that his dumpster is the best new dumpster technology and can save the world by providing scopes magically. The TV Demo targets the general public (I assume), many people will not understand the nuances of the demonstration and may be lead to believe the technology is being shown to do something it is not.
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #131 on: February 16, 2017, 11:13:26 pm »
The difference is the intent to deceive. I don't believe Dave had any intent to deceive anyone. It should be obvious to Dave's audience that the latest scope would not be found in the dumpster, that's what makes it a funny joke. Dave was not trying to convince anybody that his dumpster is the best new dumpster technology and can save the world by providing scopes magically. The TV Demo targets the general public (I assume), many people will not understand the nuances of the demonstration and may be lead to believe the technology is being shown to do something it is not.

Judging by some of the comments in teh forum and on youtube i'm not so sure some people missed what was very apparently a stunt.   If you did'tn get it was a stunt straight away there was a big giveaway was that when the scope came out of the dumpster it had no probes..  ANd then mysteriously when dave went to use it there was some  brand new probes.. :-)   

Marketing! it just comes in different flavours..   I did'nt feel the university tryed to deceive.. yet others did..    Its just where you draw the line.. and we'll all have different places we put that line.


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Offline josecamoessilva

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Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #132 on: February 17, 2017, 05:18:15 am »
Yes, you are correct, fixed above, thanks.  On standby natural gas peakers can be online in about 10min and ramp fairly quick.  The combined cycle larger units are much much slower than peakers, but faster than straight coal.

It's been a while since I learned it (80s), but aren't peakers generally combined cycle, with the gas generator + turbine (Brayton) part ramping up fast and the heat exchanger (Rankine) part ramping up somewhat slower? For both flexibility and efficiency. (I have a vague idea in the 80s you could get ~45% chemical to thermal efficiency, I heard now it's up to >60%, so kudos to oil-stained mechanical engineers. I guess they're good for something after all. ;) )

For the lulz: one time I tried to explain the difference between dispatchable and non-dispatchable power to a well-meaning young female environmentalist, who thought a 1GW flex-fuel power plant was basically like a big camping generator, start/stop in seconds.  :-DD
 

Offline Money4Nothing

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Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #133 on: February 23, 2017, 07:24:58 pm »
As an electrical engineer myself, I can sympathize with the mistake that Bristol made. You want to give people application ideas for your product to convince them of the value you are offering. Unfortunately, you can make mistakes in applications if you rush in too quickly, and look silly. Unless you have been commissioned to design a solution for a particular problem, sometimes it's just best to offer your product based on its features, and let others decide what applications they want to use it for.

$
 

Offline Jackamus

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Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #134 on: February 24, 2017, 07:55:55 pm »
>     This device is exactly what I need for a project I am developing in which battery conversation is of paramount importance. My project is to help the increasing number of people suffering with dementia. I'm sure the readers of this blog will know of someone who suffers in this horrible way.
>     I am new to this blog and I'm astonished at the way negative comments are made. I refer to the cavalier way in which Dave 'busts' Bristol University's UB20M. Perhaps BU could have made a better video and being more precise as to what the UB20M does exactly. They may not be professional video makers but they are certainly professional electrical engineers and should not treated as amateurs. As for using taxpayers money this is a more responsible way of spending than funding some of the utterly useless socio-polico schemes dreamed up in Westminster!
    I found it rather odd that Dave actually attacked individuals, rather than products, read out their names and been cynical about their attempts to explain their stuff. He could have taken the role of educating this audience, but instead whipped them up against BU with his sensationalist manner.

>     However it was clear, that as I read through the comments, I noticed after first making a negative comments, some bloggers back-tracked and reappraised the UB20M in a more positive way.
>
>     When I first looked at this blog I could see that others looking at it would not bother reading any further due to the negative headline. What a pity! Considering how many people visit this blog I would think that it behoves the Administrators to act in an honourable way, when a negative headline is the first comment, to either edit or retract the headline once clarity has been established.
>
>     How about it Dave?

 

Offline Delta

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Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #135 on: February 24, 2017, 11:34:26 pm »
The original video was outright marketing bullshit.

Dave was 100% correct to call them out.
 

Online Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #136 on: February 25, 2017, 01:10:40 am »
The original video was outright marketing bullshit.

Dave was 100% correct to call them out.

That's it in a nutshell.

The serious efforts made by the Bristol team were buried by an extremely poor presentation.  It was that presentation which gave the parameters for the ensuing critical discussion - and based on those parameters, the discussion had only one primary direction that it could go.

To their credit, Bristol came and addressed the discussion and conceded their presentation was not the best.  They then provided contributions to the conversation that changed the discussion parameters, allowing a much more constructive dialogue.

However, the current state is a result of all the previous stages and the history of this topic is what it is.  At each stage, the opinions expressed are valid as at the time they were made - and it would seem ludicrous to suggest we "rewrite history", which is what I hear being put forward.

Even putting the most favourable spin on this and say "20-20 hindsight is a marvelous thing", doesn't mean you expunge the lesson which created the situation that invited such a phrase to be presented.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 01:21:47 am by Brumby »
 

Online Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED! <Response: +ve>
« Reply #137 on: February 25, 2017, 01:19:03 am »
Perhaps Dave could add a word or two to the thread title to indicate a response from the subject party and whether that created a more positive (or negative) opinion on the key elements.

Off the top of my head:

Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!  <Response: +ve>
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!  <Response: -ve>
Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!  <Response: meh>


Then readers would know there is more to the topic than Dave's original video and member comments....
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 01:24:15 am by Brumby »
 
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Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #138 on: February 25, 2017, 02:35:35 am »
>     This device is exactly what I need for a project I am developing in which battery conversation is of paramount importance. My project is to help the increasing number of people suffering with dementia. I'm sure the readers of this blog will know of someone who suffers in this horrible way.
>     I am new to this blog and I'm astonished at the way negative comments are made. I refer to the cavalier way in which Dave 'busts' Bristol University's UB20M.

Go watch the video again and listen. I say good things about the UB20M chip itself, more than once I believe.
I simply called out the marketing BS, which they have basically admitted too, and why they removed and reedited their video.

Quote
>Perhaps BU could have made a better video and being more precise as to what the UB20M does exactly.

They went and did exactly that, taking out the misleading parts.

Quote
>I found it rather odd that Dave actually attacked individuals, rather than products, read out their names and been cynical about their attempts to explain their stuff. He could have taken the role of educating this audience, but instead whipped them up against BU with his sensationalist manner.

Err, they were the ones featured in their own video and are the ones making the statements and claims. Of course I addressed them personally.
I did try to educated my audience, you just don't like the way I did it.

Quote
>     However it was clear, that as I read through the comments, I noticed after first making a negative comments, some bloggers back-tracked and reappraised the UB20M in a more positive way.
>
>     When I first looked at this blog I could see that others looking at it would not bother reading any further due to the negative headline. What a pity! Considering how many people visit this blog I would think that it behoves the Administrators to act in an honourable way, when a negative headline is the first comment, to either edit or retract the headline once clarity has been established.

They asked for their image to be removed from the thumbnail and I did so.
They did not ask for the video to be removed or edited, nor the headline changed.

Quote
>     How about it Dave?

No. The title is not "UB20M chip BUSTED". It is very specifically a claim about the zero TV standby claim.
If people want to take it the other way then there is absolutely no way I can change their mind about doing so. I have already said more than once in the video that there is nothing wrong with the chip itself.
The only other step would be to remove the video entirely.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 02:41:48 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline CCitizenTO

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Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #139 on: February 25, 2017, 03:40:56 am »
That's actually not a zero standby power device, even if the circuitry draws no power. The dissipation of 6ft of typical power cord at Dave's 240V is around half a milliwatt (measured it long ago here in the US (120V) and have used ~20uW/ft as a guess ever since). There's little benefit in setting the standby power bar lower than that for a mains powered design.

No but it's as close to zero as you can possibly get. That said even the wires inside your walls are consuming electricity unless you flip things off at the breaker box.
 

Offline Jackamus

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Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #140 on: February 27, 2017, 11:53:21 pm »
What is the EEV blog all about? Critiquing quality of Video presentations, the people appearing in them or could it possible to do with electronic development?
 

Offline Jackamus

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Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #141 on: February 28, 2017, 12:00:35 am »
That would be the 'right' way to do it. This should always be about the 'spirit' of the product. Not everyone who comes up with a good idea may be able to put it across in a professional manner. Its their skill as electronic engineers that should reflect their professionalism.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #142 on: February 28, 2017, 12:11:13 am »
What is the EEV blog all about? Critiquing quality of Video presentations, the people appearing in them or could it possible to do with electronic development?

I think it was pretty darn obvious, I was calling out the BS marketing claims made about a zero power standby TV, that's it.
I stated in the video more than once I had no problem with the chip or the people.
Do people not listen to what I say in the videos? (that's a rhetorical question, this is Youtube  ::) )
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #143 on: February 28, 2017, 12:13:22 am »
That would be the 'right' way to do it. This should always be about the 'spirit' of the product. Not everyone who comes up with a good idea may be able to put it across in a professional manner. Its their skill as electronic engineers that should reflect their professionalism.

Sure. But when you make very clear public marketing claims, and those claims are BS, then you can be expected to be called out on them.
Welcome to the real world.
 

Online Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #971 - Zero Standby Power TV - BUSTED!
« Reply #144 on: February 28, 2017, 01:16:50 am »
That would be the 'right' way to do it. This should always be about the 'spirit' of the product. Not everyone who comes up with a good idea may be able to put it across in a professional manner. Its their skill as electronic engineers that should reflect their professionalism.

You are being rather naive and idealistic.  Communication is part of the skill set required these days - especially when we have global and instant communications channels available from anywhere.  Their original efforts were as skillful in that area as a dry joint on a PCB.


As Dave said: Welcome to the real world.
 


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