EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on February 21, 2017, 02:42:46 am
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Dave looks at the Japanese Hioki DT4256 Multimeter and 3280 clamp meter
http://www.tequipment.net/Hioki/DT4256/Multimeters/product-reviews/ (http://www.tequipment.net/Hioki/DT4256/Multimeters/product-reviews/)
http://www.tequipment.net/Hioki/3280-70F/Clamp-Meters/?v=0 (http://www.tequipment.net/Hioki/3280-70F/Clamp-Meters/?v=0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8Rom9Owsyo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8Rom9Owsyo)
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If Hioki sent you this, they really didn't do their research on you before they chose what products to send. They really should have sent you the DT4282 model. It's much better suited for what you do and for your sort of audience, IMHO.
It's 60,000 counts at 5/sec refresh rate, Basic DC accuracy: ±0.025 % rdg. ±2 dgt. Has milliamp and microamp ranges. Capacitance down to 1.000 nF. Diode test 4.5V. dB conversion. Just in every quantifiable metric, a better suited meter for the kind of electronics stuff you and your audience are mostly interested in (except only 100 hrs battery life from 4xAA's). I wish they'd sent you the DT4282, because I'd really like to see you do a review and teardown of THAT model!!!!
(https://www.tester.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/2/image/1800x/05346a985a93e33e9004a4119d1ea6fd/d/t/dt4282-digital-multimeter.jpg)
Edit: Plus it has a nS range, and it has shutters for the jacks not in use for safety, a good feature. Also DC+AC and temp as well as data logging. Really a much more interesting DMM than the one they sent you.
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I wish they'd sent you the DT4282, because I'd really like to see you do a review and teardown of THAT model!!!!
The 4281 is close enough?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hioki-dt4281-multimeter-teardown-and-first-impression/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hioki-dt4281-multimeter-teardown-and-first-impression/)
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I wish they'd sent you the DT4282, because I'd really like to see you do a review and teardown of THAT model!!!!
The 4281 is close enough?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hioki-dt4281-multimeter-teardown-and-first-impression/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hioki-dt4281-multimeter-teardown-and-first-impression/)
Meh. Not really, no, because of the lack of a traditional 10A range, substituting the add-on clamp meter functionality instead. I'm not interested in the DT4281 at all. But thanks for the link, I'll take a look anyway :)
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The Hioki DT4282 is in a different price category, and is essentially equivalent to a Fluke 289 in specification -- except for the limitations imposed by the 'standard' display.
The local agent is selling the DT4256 for NZ$150 (plus GST, our sales tax). That is around US$100. When this is comparable to a Fluke that costs nearly three times that amount locally, it is certainly a better value. We have put one into service in our lab, replacing a Fluke 19 that was past its best days.
My view of the case is that it is as good as the old Fluke versions, and the soft boot would help take an impact. The only physical issue is the protruding selector switch, inviting Murphy to ensure a face-down fall onto a hard surface.
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The Hioki DT4282 is in a different price category, and is essentially equivalent to a Fluke 289 in specification -- except for the limitations imposed by the 'standard' display.
The local agent is selling the DT4256 for NZ$150 (plus GST, our sales tax). That is around US$100. When this is comparable to a Fluke that costs nearly three times that amount locally, it is certainly a better value. We have put one into service in our lab, replacing a Fluke 19 that was past its best days.
My view of the case is that it is as good as the old Fluke versions, and the soft boot would help take an impact. The only physical issue is the protruding selector switch, inviting Murphy to ensure a face-down fall onto a hard surface.
Yes, they're in different price brackets, but it (the DT4282) is just a much more appropriately spec'd meter for electronics, I think. If this were a forum mostly aimed at electricians working on HV AC installations, the meter(s) they sent would have been more appropriate.
I actually prefer the segmented type display over the (289 style) dot matrix display in a portable DMM, it seems easier to read to me when the reading is changing quickly. I don't need graphing on a DMM, I'd rather send the raw data to my laptop and do any charting/graphing in Excel, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way, especially given that the graphing function on the 289 is SO slow.
Anyway, all I was really saying was that I'd enjoy seeing a Dave teardown and review of the DT4282, as it seems like a good DMM for electronics. It was on my shortlist when I was considering a new DMM recently, along with others such as the Brymen BM869S.
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One annoying thing about the Hioki meters (I have a DT4281) is that they don't have the adjustment menu instructions in the manual.
My DT4281 reads about 60ppm high which is not volt-nut approved especially considering the hermetic sealed LTC6652 reference with 20ppm/sqr(kHr) spec =P. To enter the user adjust password screen you have to power-on holding RANGE + DOWN. It then displays "user adjust" (my arse) and awaits a password using the CLEAR, READ, HOLD, MEM buttons with RANGE acting as 'enter'.
There is no clue for the length of the password, I already tried every combination up to 4 digits long (256) and I think trying 5 digit long (1024) manually will end up with me throwing the meter out the window, which it will probably survive as it'll take 1 meter drops no problem according to the marketing. When I have time I will try brute force it with a microcontroller.
I got in contact with Hioki in Japan and the Aussie distributor, but they are not allowed to share the calibration instructions.
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If Hioki sent you this, they really didn't do their research on you before they chose what products to send.
I actually tried to tell them that!
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The Hioki DT4282 is in a different price category, and is essentially equivalent to a Fluke 289 in specification -- except for the limitations imposed by the 'standard' display.
US$500 puts it into the ouchy category.
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With regard to the question if we'd like to see more teardown / reviews that's a resounding yes from this young player. :-+
I've learnt so much, a fair bit of which is how NOT to do something :-+, and seen equipment I just didn't know exist :scared: To see that equipment turned on more often would be the icing on the cake.
Eg. A quick hooking of the clampmeter to your Rigol 832's power cable when pumping put max power - then a DaveCad calculation of the Rigol's efficiency.
or taking it down to the EEVLair's Dungeon and putting it around the building's main power in - That'll be a few amps :)
and if it's not that simple ... what are the traps for young players using these items? :)
Excellent, Entertaining Educational video as usual :-+ :-+
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Tequipment.net has had the 4282 on sale for 400 usd for quite some time. I got mine for that price about 6 months ago.
http://www.tequipment.net/HiokiDT4282.html (http://www.tequipment.net/HiokiDT4282.html)
Hands down my favorite meter...
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This page below has a pdf of all the hioki DT4200 series meters.
https://www.tester.co.uk/hioki-dt4282-digital-multimeter (https://www.tester.co.uk/hioki-dt4282-digital-multimeter)
I've just bought a DT4282 on Amazon (last one) for £270 plus £2.99 postage from Tester co uk
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Dammit Dave, smashrolled within the first two minutes.
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Hmmm... you "reviewed" a current meter without ever measuring any current?
You can clamp on the feed line for your house for a quick source of lots of AC amps to measure.... or just split an extension cord and turn on the hair dryer or toaster.. but that's not as interesting.
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The Hioki DT4282 is in a different price category, and is essentially equivalent to a Fluke 289 in specification -- except for the limitations imposed by the 'standard' display.
US$500 puts it into the ouchy category.
Glad to see you using the proper technical terms there Dave. ;-)
"Unobtainium" is another personal favourite of mine.
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You can clamp on the feed line for your house for a quick source of lots of AC amps to measure....
That's easier said than done. Unless you live in an old(er) house in Australia, you won't have easily accessible mains cables to measure.
Gone are the days where pole-to-gutter wiring is standard. Even in older areas with pole-to-pole wiring, builders install private poles so everything runs underground from your property boundary to your switchboard.
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Hmmm... you "reviewed" a current meter without ever measuring any current?
No, I just did a teardown.
I said that in the video.
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Dammit Dave, smashrolled within the first two minutes.
:-//
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http://www.intertek.com.hk/electronics/kc-mark/?gclid=Cj0KEQiA56_FBRDYpqGa2p_e1MgBEiQAVEZ6-3ppE_JSZlMC25C-kHIhK_AUYFWmCduvzWgkBdbnjz4aAsZL8P8HAQ (http://www.intertek.com.hk/electronics/kc-mark/?gclid=Cj0KEQiA56_FBRDYpqGa2p_e1MgBEiQAVEZ6-3ppE_JSZlMC25C-kHIhK_AUYFWmCduvzWgkBdbnjz4aAsZL8P8HAQ)
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I hope I didn't come across as critical of the review itself... DMM reviews are probably my favourite segment (what, even more than mailbag??!), and I like to see reviews of various different makes and models of DMM's, but it just immediately came to my mind as soon as I saw the two meters they sent that I had recently been reading up the specs and details on a much more erm, better fit for audience, DMM by Hioki. That was all I was trying to convey. But keep up the DMM reviews, I'm a big fan of them, and the more in depth the better, as far as I'm concerned. (I often watch long youtube reviews at 2x speed these days, and they end up coming through closer to "brain intake speed" playing at 2x.)
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Yes, they're in different price brackets, but it (the DT4282) is just a much more appropriately spec'd meter for electronics, I think.
Sure, but it is too expensive for most hobbyists to consider. The Fluke 289 is cheaper in many countries, too, so then Hioki runs into the brand recognition issue with no obvious spec advantage.
I actually prefer the segmented type display over the (289 style) dot matrix display in a portable DMM, it seems easier to read to me when the reading is changing quickly. I don't need graphing on a DMM, I'd rather send the raw data to my laptop and do any charting/graphing in Excel, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way, especially given that the graphing function on the 289 is SO slow.
Data capture is not really good enough on the 289, in my experience. We got an 8846A to address that need, but I would go for the Keysight 34461A now.
Anyway, all I was really saying was that I'd enjoy seeing a Dave teardown and review of the DT4282, as it seems like a good DMM for electronics. It was on my shortlist when I was considering a new DMM recently, along with others such as the Brymen BM869S.
We have a Fluke 289 in the lab, and it is useful but can also be frustratingly limited. Fluke seem to deliberately produce instruments with rather odd feature omissions and arbitrary limitations.
Chinese cheapie stuff will have every possible feature dialled up to eleven (rather than ten, where it will still work reliably) while the expensive brands play games to 'differentiate' products.
We don't see much Brymen stuff here, but the 235 from Dave seems to be pretty decent -- I bought one for personal use. GW Instek instruments are also a pretty good balance of raptures to cost. Perhaps Taiwan is where the 'sweet spot' for this gear is being best targeted?
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Quote from: boggis the cat on Today at 11:03:50 PM (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=83568.msg1141908#msg1141908)
...Chinese cheapie stuff will have every possible feature dialled up to eleven (rather than ten, ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9F5fhJQo34 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9F5fhJQo34)
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Nice review, Dave. Stupid question, you did re-enable the buzzer when you tested putting the leads in the incorrect sockets, right? It was not clear in the video that you did, unless you mentioned it later (watched the entire video for the multimeter, did not watch the clampmeter part, so if you mentioned it after the clampmeter, I missed it).
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At 10:07:
Is it my imagination or are they all helter-skelter?
The pictures match the buttons on the front of the meter. The buttons are not quite in a straight line.
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The connector on the clamp actually looks like a IEC 60320-1 kind of connector which I personally could very well imagine to be useful. On this kind of thing I would assume the regular probes to be more of a gimmick which would also explain why it is only CAT-III rated.
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Though I'm retired, I'm still allowed to work a few hours a month in the film/video business. The Hioki clamp on is a very popular meter, since as Dave deduced, its super THIN and LIGHT. Most of the electricians/lamp operators have Fluke meters, but as we are mostly testing 120/240 volt 1600-1800 amp. mobile tractor generators the Hioki clamp-on gets the job done, and they hold up well. These generators have a single digital gauge, but only for each of the 3 hot phases, plus neutral. Since there are multiple taps for separate cable runs to the set, the clamp on allows for separate amp readings on each hot leg, to keep the diesel geny in balance. We don't require much in the way of accuracy in our meters, except for checking for solid 60 hertz output. The largest gauge cable we need to monitor for amps would be 4/0, so we don't usually read more then 300 amps on a hot leg. Back when I started, analog Amprobe clamp on meters were the standard, I still have mine, bullet proof, and good enough for the task at hand.
A few weeks a go, I was able to bring my new EEVBLOG BM235 to a job, and it performed flawlessly! I compared it to some of the guys Fluke meters, 3 of them, all about 3-4 times as expensive. I compared the basic AC voltages and hertz, all spot on. I had hertz/cycle issues with that generator all day, and the record feature was as good as the fluke 87. Turns out according to the rental house, that generator was switched from regular diesel fuel, to BIO diesel, and it didn't like it.
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What is so bad that the Hioki case is not too rigid?
In order to sustain hits/drops wouldn't actually help if the case body is a little... bouncy?
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What is so bad that the Hioki case is not too rigid?
In order to sustain hits/drops wouldn't actually help if the case body is a little... bouncy?
Personal preference. It doesn't feel or sound good.
As for benefit in drop testing, that can only be answered with controlled drop testing.
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What is so bad that the Hioki case is not too rigid?
In order to sustain hits/drops wouldn't actually help if the case body is a little... bouncy?
I somewhat agree, twisting the case most likely is just an indicator of the thickness of the plastic used and may or may not mean much on how the meter actually functions, and of course could effect a drop test, though I'm not volunteering my meters for such a test. But you have to remember, Dave is in the process of building his own meter, and to his credit, he gets into the small details, like plastic case construction. I believe there is a recent video on this subject since he is going through that process. I bypassed that video, but now I'm going to watch it. The case twist test would not sway me much, but it's additional data points, so what the hell.
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Nice review, Dave. Stupid question, you did re-enable the buzzer when you tested putting the leads in the incorrect sockets, right? It was not clear in the video that you did, unless you mentioned it later (watched the entire video for the multimeter, did not watch the clampmeter part, so if you mentioned it after the clampmeter, I missed it).
How would it know to beep at you unless it has split jacks? I only saw one connection there.
The other possibility is if it beeps each time (which is useless) or if it beeps and shows a message on the screen each time (like fluke 115, which is semi useful).
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Just like old times again. Enjoyed the video. Good to see another HIOKI review.
What you call a cap appears to a PTC in series with the resistor and the GDT to the return.
The one I tested started to melt some of the plastic at the very high levels and it could have been prevented easy enough. This one is a little different.
I use some of their line quality equipment. These are not only meant to survive events but also capture them. HIOKI knows how to make equipment that will survive.
Like others, I would have liked to see the higher end unit. I thought about buying one but the Brymen's twin TC inputs drew me in... Looking forward to your next meter review.
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I've received my Hioki DT4282 about an hour ago, only 25 hours after ordering it.
It's a bit smaller than my Brymen BM867s but weighs 3 grams more at 714g
with batteries and test leads.
It does not flex like the Hioki Dave reviewed, partly due to the battery compartment walls
being 2mm thick.
The only thing I'm not sure about is the test leads I prefer the Brymen's as they are more supple
apart from that the meter exudes quality and has nice touches, like showing you what range you
are in when you range change and in continuity you can change your resistance threshold with the
arrow keys.
Also I have not notice any flicking symbols as one review pointed a few years ago so hope that's fixed.
The batteries are Toshiba alkaline shelf life until 2019.
I did think there maybe something wrong with it as I only a bit more than paid half price
and if look at the prices on ebay from China, I paid less than half price.
Finally a thanks to Dave and Joe for their meter reviews I have 3 decent meters, Brymen BM257s,BM867S and Hioki DT8242
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I like this multimeter . It is compact , accurate and damn quick . Really a good multimeter for electricians on service in the fields like me :-+ :-+ :-+. But the beeper is annoying and here in Europe it is not so easy to get Hioki from a dealer to get quick support :-[
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What is so bad that the Hioki case is not too rigid?
In order to sustain hits/drops wouldn't actually help if the case body is a little... bouncy?
Personal preference. It doesn't feel or sound good.
As for benefit in drop testing, that can only be answered with controlled drop testing.
Off to the dam again then, this time with the Chronos camera as well.
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Dave questioned whether Hioki rolled their own IC.
Hioki white paper describes they did in fact make their own HAZ01.
https://www.hioki.com/file/cmw/hdTechnicalDataEn/30/attached_file/?action=browser&log=1&lang=en (https://www.hioki.com/file/cmw/hdTechnicalDataEn/30/attached_file/?action=browser&log=1&lang=en)
The same chip goes into pocket sized DT422x models too with true RMS and bar graph, which run on a single 1.5v battery and NiMH is ok per manual.