Author Topic: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown  (Read 28365 times)

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Offline ericloewe

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2017, 09:25:35 pm »
At least Rigol used CapXon. Rather disappointing selection of caps.
 

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2017, 09:46:35 pm »
I agree as well. The overall build is fine, but the fan and the power supply were sourced through a third party and are a huge maybe. I would love to see a teardown of a TBS1000 to compare.

I wonder how soon the PSU and the fan will start giving headaches to the university lab managers. I wonder if it is more expensive to contract a maintenance plan with Keysight or treat these oscilloscopes as consumables... Only time will tell.
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2017, 10:13:23 pm »
What a nice scope for cheap money I thought I will definitely buy one but after seeing those "lovely" electrolytic caps I lost my appetite.  :(
What an idiotic attitude.
First, just because you don't recognise a brand doesn't mean it's bad. 
Second, caps are trivially easy to diagnose and cheap to replace if they did fail outside the 3 year warranty. Maybe an hour an ten bucks to replace all of them.
Ditto fan.
Making a purchasing decision on that alone when there are so many other factors is just stupid.


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Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2017, 10:23:40 pm »
Where is an integrated circuit in the PSU? Is it in a TO-220 package??
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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2017, 10:51:58 pm »
Also, re. the caps, they are well spaced out and fan cooled. Heat is a far more important factor than manufacturer. If they last the warranty period ( eliminating manufacturing defects) they'll probably be good for many more years
 
I've fixed a lot of SMPSUs in my time and the vast majority of cap failures have been due to poor thermal design.
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Offline IvoS

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2017, 10:53:53 pm »
What a nice scope for cheap money I thought I will definitely buy one but after seeing those "lovely" electrolytic caps I lost my appetite.  :(
What an idiotic attitude.
First, just because you don't recognise a brand doesn't mean it's bad. 
Second, caps are trivially easy to diagnose and cheap to replace if they did fail outside the 3 year warranty. Maybe an hour an ten bucks to replace all of them.
Ditto fan.
Making a purchasing decision on that alone when there are so many other factors is just stupid.
Call me whatever you want, make yourself happy. My decision has been made.
 

Offline 128er

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2017, 11:18:04 pm »
Where is an integrated circuit in the PSU? Is it in a TO-220 package??

Thought the same. No switching controller in sight. Discrete design? Would be somewhat strange.

EDIT:
Ok, at second glance, there are two tiny SOT23-6 devices U1, U6 on the bottom side of the PSU.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 11:24:02 pm by 128er »
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2017, 11:31:17 pm »
Where is an integrated circuit in the PSU? Is it in a TO-220 package??

Thought the same. No switching controller in sight. Discrete design? Would be somewhat strange.

EDIT:
Ok, at second glance, there are two tiny SOT23-6 devices U1, U6 on the bottom side of the PSU.
There are some SOT23-6 devices on the primary side
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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2017, 11:46:12 pm »
Looking at it some more, that's one of the best engineered "cheap" SMPSUs I've seen. Plenty of input filtering, very well spaced out, conformal coated ( good where you have dusty airflow), additional LC filters on the outputs, multiple series resistors for high voltage drops.
Apart from the coating over the sparkgaps, though the coating is probably more of a plus than the less effective gaps are a negative- you rarely see them, or MOVs in PSUs at all.
Seems unlikely they'd have done all that then spoilt it with crappy caps.
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Offline bitwelder

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2017, 06:54:19 am »
Let's assume that there is no updates for this model and no other models which can benefit from the two-boards construction.
In percentage of the existing solution, what do you estimate would have been the cost of a single-board construction?
 

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2017, 10:13:16 am »
Let's assume that there is no updates for this model and no other models which can benefit from the two-boards construction.
In percentage of the existing solution, what do you estimate would have been the cost of a single-board construction?
Hard to say as we have no idea what the total build cost - all you can do is estimate the difference in bare PCB costs, which on the figures estimated so far looks like easily covering any additional cost.
And it won't be just about the bare PCB - assembly, inspection, test will all be factors.

It also allows more flexibility for different models - the sub-board is a well-proven module that's unlikely to need changing as the design is many years old.
The mainboard may need to change for different model variants, e.g. a headless rackmount version, different bandwidth front-ends, with/without siggen etc.
The module approach reduces layout/tooling /qualification cost on a new mainboard variant.

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Offline McBryce

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2017, 10:40:16 am »
Could the missing BNC possibly be for a second Func. Gen. channel?

McBryce.
 

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2017, 11:03:22 am »
I notice there is an unpopulated connector on the sub-board, presumably for an MSO option
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Offline madires

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2017, 12:24:16 pm »
Could the missing BNC possibly be for a second Func. Gen. channel?

There's another one at the side near the USB port. So it could be 4 channel and the external trigger moved to the side or a second function gen. Obviously it's kept flexible to allow variations for other models. My guess is that Keysight starts with the 2 channel version to see if they can compete at the low end and make money. If the 2 channel models are succesful I wouldn't be surpised to see 4 channel models later on.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2017, 12:34:16 pm »
Could the missing BNC possibly be for a second Func. Gen. channel?

McBryce.

It could be for that or for something else - but I'm with Dave on it being the sort of engineering you would use for a 4ch scope.

If it were me, I would set up the tooling for a case and chassis capable of 4 channel.  Even if the 4 channel option was not a starter at the time, it gives the option of taking up the idea further down the track, with minimal additional cost.
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2017, 12:51:00 pm »
Thought the same. No switching controller in sight. Discrete design? Would be somewhat strange.
I saw a PSU like that recently.

Really strange, as it is a SMPS for an integrated subwoofer amplifier.
+80 / -80V output, 150-250W range, full bridge design, only 4 transistors !!. The transistors are driven from aux windings, through a bunch of discretes.
Thre isn't even an optocoupler on it, so it's unregulated, and probably needs a minimum current to not have too much variation on the output.
 

Offline Len

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2017, 06:21:33 pm »
What's with the soldering on the IC at 23:45? Wrong footprint? or dual footprint?
 

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2017, 06:54:50 pm »
It's a QFN package, and the pads have been extended. This gives somewhere to probe with a scope during development, and in production it causes a solder fillet to form at the edge of the device which can be inspected more easily with an AOI system.

If there's room, it's often good practice to extend the pads of a QFN at least a little, beyond the minimum recommended footprint in the device's data sheet.
 
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Offline saturation

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2017, 07:06:13 pm »
Its a very interesting blend of cost effectiveness in the parts particularly the electrolytics, the only way to know for sure if it will hold up is to test it,  it may have.  The design style reminds me of a specific PSU manufacturer in China, Fu Jia.  They began in the early 1990s, and made their own transformers.  They are now a well known OEM and the hallmarks of their designs are they do burned ins before leaving the factory, they get 3rd party safety certification [ UL, CSA, TUV etc.,] for their products as well as parts, and they have very good labels for parts and test points.  They commonly label their smps designs FJ-SWxxx which you can see all over the 1000x photos.  I was surprised to see the preferred abbreviations for DC volts, Vdc, with the current in lower case, which is an IEEE preferred label that few ever use.  So if it is Fu Jia you can read about their reputation and build quality via google.


Looking at it some more, that's one of the best engineered "cheap" SMPSUs I've seen. Plenty of input filtering, very well spaced out, conformal coated ( good where you have dusty airflow), additional LC filters on the outputs, multiple series resistors for high voltage drops.
Apart from the coating over the sparkgaps, though the coating is probably more of a plus than the less effective gaps are a negative- you rarely see them, or MOVs in PSUs at all.
Seems unlikely they'd have done all that then spoilt it with crappy caps.

Best Wishes,

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Offline rrinker

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2017, 07:52:59 pm »
 I was rather impressed by the very clearly labeled test points and so forth all over the unit, not only just on the power supply.
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2017, 08:47:14 pm »
Excellent teardown as usual - learn a lot every time  :-+

Around the 24:01 mark and the LMH6552 1.5Ghz Differential Amp U39. Is it just the camera angle or are pins 1,4,5,8 using a bees dick width of solder and look like they'd snap if the unit was jostled sharply?

They won't snap, its a dual footprint and there is a pad underneath.

It's a QFN package, and the pads have been extended. This gives somewhere to probe with a scope during development, and in production it causes a solder fillet to form at the edge of the device which can be inspected more easily with an AOI system.

If there's room, it's often good practice to extend the pads of a QFN at least a little, beyond the minimum recommended footprint in the device's data sheet.

Its an alternate footprint to allow WSON/SOIC-8 packages, you can see from the datasheet: http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lmh6552.pdf
 
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Offline mmagin

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2017, 11:30:01 pm »
So is the 'Siglent Rust' just because in these cheap metal stampings, the plating happens to whole sheets prior to stamping the parts and they're manufactured in a very humid climate?

It certainly seems like nothing to get upset about on sub-$1000 products.  I'd be more critical of the thickness of the metal or other substantial mechanical aspects.
 

Offline matthewpang

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2017, 11:52:57 pm »
Does anybody know how they are supporting the 3 wire SPI interface on a 2 channel scope ( http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1965EN.pdf ) ? Do you have to pick either MISO or MOSI or are they doing something interesting like routing the clock through the external trigger port ?
 

Offline nfmax

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2017, 11:07:42 am »
Some comments:
  • The two PWA construction means there is one large, low-spec, cheap PWA (the main board) and one small, high-spec expensive PWA. If they ever do 4-channel or MSO variants, or add the network port, there will only need to be a new version of the cheap PWA. Judging by the case tooling this seems quite probable
  • All the Keysight proprietary IP is on the small PWA. This is probably being made & tested at a Keysight-owned facility and supplied free issue to a China-based manufacturer. Helps to avoid IP 'leakage'. These days, a 100MHz 'scope front-end is pretty meh so it's not so much of a risk
  • Actually, this is an MSO - just an MSO with only one digital channel. We know the MZ4 ASIC has MSO built in, so the hardest part was probably just coming up with the idea of munging an external trigger and a digital input together onto one BNC. A good bit of lateral thinking!
 

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2017, 11:33:40 am »
So is the 'Siglent Rust' just because in these cheap metal stampings, the plating happens to whole sheets prior to stamping the parts and they're manufactured in a very humid climate?

It certainly seems like nothing to get upset about on sub-$1000 products.  I'd be more critical of the thickness of the metal or other substantial mechanical aspects.
Now known as KeySig rust.  ;)

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