Author Topic: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown  (Read 27723 times)

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Online tautech

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2017, 10:36:11 pm »

  • Actually, this is an MSO - just an MSO with only one digital channel. We know the MZ4 ASIC has MSO built in, so the hardest part was probably just coming up with the idea of munging an external trigger and a digital input together onto one BNC. A good bit of lateral thinking!

Easily done in firmware.
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Offline nfmax

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2017, 10:37:43 pm »
That's my point - easily done, but not so easily thought of in the first place.
 

Offline Cervisia

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2017, 10:45:56 pm »
Does anybody know how they are supporting the 3 wire SPI interface on a 2 channel scope?

The manual download page shows only the German manual for me; it says in table 28 (translated):
Quote
SPI Signal Configuration
[…] This menu has separate soft keys and sub menus to set source channels and threshold voltages for clock, MOSI/MISO, and CS (chip select).
NOTE: The two-channel oscilloscopes of the DSOX1000 series support 3-wire SPI. The MOSI and MISO signal settings are identical by default; you can basically sample one of them.
 

Offline Jay_Diddy_B

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2017, 10:49:37 pm »
So is the 'Siglent Rust' just because in these cheap metal stampings, the plating happens to whole sheets prior to stamping the parts and they're manufactured in a very humid climate?

It certainly seems like nothing to get upset about on sub-$1000 products.  I'd be more critical of the thickness of the metal or other substantial mechanical aspects.

The material is called 'Satin coat steel'. It is essential zinc coated steel. There is no protection from corrosion on cut edges.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2017, 10:49:50 pm »
So is the 'Siglent Rust' just because in these cheap metal stampings, the plating happens to whole sheets prior to stamping the parts and they're manufactured in a very humid climate?

It certainly seems like nothing to get upset about on sub-$1000 products.  I'd be more critical of the thickness of the metal or other substantial mechanical aspects.
Now known as KeySig rust.  ;)

Yes it is very humid and hot in southern China.

Is it better say "wet" because many times dev point is very near current temp, quite nice when temp is 35 celsius and humidity 98%. . But, this is not only problem.
Take rain water or water condensed to some surface - its not like water in Fnland at all. Well this south chine rain water need sell in chemistry and drug store. (but better than some years ago)
Example we have galvanized  metal rain roof over balcony. Few years all rusted through in. Next time we change rest and use hard plastic.  Some times this rain is so acidic that it is best to go shower and rinse clothes  after come inside from rain. (but far away what is in example Beijing. (but there is not sub tropic climate as in south)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 10:54:12 pm by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Online tautech

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2017, 10:56:20 pm »
So is the 'Siglent Rust' just because in these cheap metal stampings, the plating happens to whole sheets prior to stamping the parts and they're manufactured in a very humid climate?

It certainly seems like nothing to get upset about on sub-$1000 products.  I'd be more critical of the thickness of the metal or other substantial mechanical aspects.

The material is called 'Satin coat steel'. It is essential zinc coated steel. There is no protection from corrosion on cut edges.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
:bullshit:
Engineers know otherwise.  :P
https://www.astm.org/SNEWS/APRIL_2006/dallynside_apr06.html

Read the Galvanic Protection paragraphs.
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Offline rrinker

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2017, 12:47:04 am »
 Reading the paragraph under the box seems to say that the flat sides are safe - cutting the edge won't cause the whole plate to rust, nor will any corrosion on the edge undercut the coating on the flat side. To me that is saying that while the cut edge itself may acquire a small amount of rust, it will not go deep or in any way harm the rest of the sheet. That rust on the cut edges is very shallow surface rust only and thus is not of any real concern (other than cosmetic).

 

Offline Jay_Diddy_B

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2017, 01:12:39 am »
Reading the paragraph under the box seems to say that the flat sides are safe - cutting the edge won't cause the whole plate to rust, nor will any corrosion on the edge undercut the coating on the flat side. To me that is saying that while the cut edge itself may acquire a small amount of rust, it will not go deep or in any way harm the rest of the sheet. That rust on the cut edges is very shallow surface rust only and thus is not of any real concern (other than cosmetic).



1+

I have used satin coat in products. My experience was consistent, a small amount of surface rust on the exposed edges.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
 
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Offline Paul Moir

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2017, 05:17:16 pm »
:bullshit:
Engineers know otherwise.  :P

So I bolt a hunk of zinc to my car:   that means I'm all right then?
 

Online Dubbie

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EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2017, 07:10:22 pm »
That's literally what they do on boats Paul. It's called a sacrificial anode.
 

Offline McBryce

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2017, 10:14:25 pm »
:bullshit:
Engineers know otherwise. 

So I bolt a hunk of zinc to my car:   that means I'm all right then?
Car bodywork is already zinc coated, has several layers of paint and underbody sealant. Cars rarely rust these days unless you really try.

McBryce.

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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2017, 11:30:56 pm »
Back on topic, the sub-board is 10 layers.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2017, 11:44:28 pm »
The anti-reflection display coating on the display is actually glass, so  should be pretty durable.
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Offline JPortici

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #63 on: March 05, 2017, 02:50:29 am »
Does anybody know how they are supporting the 3 wire SPI interface on a 2 channel scope ( http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1965EN.pdf ) ? Do you have to pick either MISO or MOSI or are they doing something interesting like routing the clock through the external trigger port ?
in the main thread, mike said it does (he tried on his unit)
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #64 on: March 05, 2017, 03:03:31 am »
Does anybody know how they are supporting the 3 wire SPI interface on a 2 channel scope ( http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1965EN.pdf ) ? Do you have to pick either MISO or MOSI or are they doing something interesting like routing the clock through the external trigger port ?
in the main thread, mike said it does (he tried on his unit)

The trigger input acts like a single digital channel. It actually shows a trace on screen for that connector and you can use it as part of the serial decode.

So really it's a 2-and-a-half channel 'scope.

(...which is a big feature IMHO. I'm not sure why they aren't shouting about it in the brochures)
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #65 on: March 05, 2017, 04:16:27 am »
It is exactly like a 1 digital channel mso. It does not need to be the trigger source.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #66 on: March 05, 2017, 04:33:45 am »
That's literally what they do on boats Paul. It's called a sacrificial anode.
That is something totally different. It works because of the electric conductivity of water.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #67 on: March 05, 2017, 04:36:29 am »
So really it's a 2-and-a-half channel 'scope.

(...which is a big feature IMHO. I'm not sure why they aren't shouting about it in the brochures)
Or use it in comparisons :palm:
Having a digital third channel is a rare but useful feature so to me it would make sense to put much more emphasis on it.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline KNSSoftware

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #68 on: March 05, 2017, 04:50:14 am »
Other than some cost saving, is there any reason why it could not be 3 channels, with the ability two switch the 'third' to a trigger only?  To be the honest my own question is better posed the other way around... Is there a reason why a four channel scope, where there is no room for the trigger, can't be switched down to three, when the ex trigger is needed?
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #69 on: March 05, 2017, 06:20:55 am »
I just noticed there is no DAC for the function gen - looks like it uses PWM from the FPGA.
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Online PA0PBZ

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #70 on: March 05, 2017, 06:21:07 am »
Other than some cost saving, is there any reason why it could not be 3 channels, with the ability two switch the 'third' to a trigger only?  To be the honest my own question is better posed the other way around... Is there a reason why a four channel scope, where there is no room for the trigger, can't be switched down to three, when the ex trigger is needed?

There is no need to switch a channel when you want to use it for triggering, you don't need to display it.
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Online PA0PBZ

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2017, 06:23:05 am »
I just noticed there is no DAC for the function gen - looks like it uses PWM from the FPGA.

Or maybe R/2R from the FPGA?
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2017, 07:00:25 am »
I just noticed there is no DAC for the function gen - looks like it uses PWM from the FPGA.

Or maybe R/2R from the FPGA?
Don't see a benefit to that as it needs precision Rs and very stable outputs. The FPGA could be doing PWM ( or some other modulation ) at a few hundred MHz, so 20MHz ( max the wavegen goes to) would be easily doable.  There is a multistage LC filter in there.
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Offline JPortici

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2017, 07:30:26 am »
Does anybody know how they are supporting the 3 wire SPI interface on a 2 channel scope ( http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1965EN.pdf ) ? Do you have to pick either MISO or MOSI or are they doing something interesting like routing the clock through the external trigger port ?
in the main thread, mike said it does (he tried on his unit)

The trigger input acts like a single digital channel. It actually shows a trace on screen for that connector and you can use it as part of the serial decode.

So really it's a 2-and-a-half channel 'scope.

(...which is a big feature IMHO. I'm not sure why they aren't shouting about it in the brochures)
Exactly. Kinda ends the 2 chan vs 4 chan debate... kinda.

At least in the decoding

I think i won't stop saying it anytime soon: finally. And why is this scope the only one at the moment doing this? (apparently)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #976 - Keysight 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2017, 09:00:00 am »
Does anybody know how they are supporting the 3 wire SPI interface on a 2 channel scope ( http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1965EN.pdf ) ? Do you have to pick either MISO or MOSI or are they doing something interesting like routing the clock through the external trigger port ?
in the main thread, mike said it does (he tried on his unit)

The trigger input acts like a single digital channel. It actually shows a trace on screen for that connector and you can use it as part of the serial decode.
So really it's a 2-and-a-half channel 'scope.
(...which is a big feature IMHO. I'm not sure why they aren't shouting about it in the brochures)

Because you CAN'T display that trace.
You can use it as a serial data input and show the decoded serial signal, but you can't show an analog waveform. i.e. it does not have "trigger view" which was common back in the analog scope days to get an extra input, albeit with limited vertical functionality.
 


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