Author Topic: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR  (Read 13717 times)

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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2017, 12:31:22 am »
The 1NB7-8353 ADC hybrid is also used in the HP 16534A scope card in their modular logic analyzer line.  I recently repaired a couple of them and one had a bad hybrid.

Of course I couldn't resist taking the top off.  Photo below.  I cracked the substrate in the process and also had to use quite a bit of heat.  Some of the caps might have reflowed and shifted a bit.

You can clearly see the ADC on the right and the 32k circular buffer memory on the left.  Someone already pointed out the piece that cracked off on Dave's was the input transmission line which you can see here goes directly to the ADC.


I bought a couple of ADC replacements from the $45 guy on ebay, watronics.  He's a retired HP/Agilent scope engineer and a nice guy.  No affiliation; just a satisfied customer.
I wonder if there is any way to build an equivalent circuit using modern parts on the same footprint with FR4 substrate material?

Probably no which is why the low end scope manufacturers have not been able to offer something economical in the 500 MHz and above category ;)
If it needs an exotic substrate, it's not a big deal as it could be a small sub-board.
The reason we don't see cheap 500MHz+ scopes is very few people need them. Probing is also an issue.
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Offline pieman103021

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2017, 12:37:37 am »
Can we take it there is no longer going to be an interesting inexpensive scope from Siglent in the near future?

No you shouldn't!
It will set a new benchmark for bang-per-bandwidth.

Very excited to see what is coming, any clues you can give to time frame? I know you probably don't know/can't say.
Looking forward to seeing another oscilloscope review/teardown.
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Offline Radio Tech

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2017, 12:50:53 am »
It sure was a pleasure to see Dave work through the issues on this scope.
That was fun to watch. Big thumbs up Dave :-+  :-+

Offline orin

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2017, 12:56:51 am »
I bought a couple of ADC replacements from the $45 guy on ebay, watronics.  He's a retired HP/Agilent scope engineer and a nice guy.  No affiliation; just a satisfied customer.


$45 OBO - probably get a few $ off that price.

I've dealt with Bill (watronics) in the past and wouldn't hesitate to deal with him again.

Orin.


 

Online tautech

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2017, 01:12:59 am »
Can we take it there is no longer going to be an interesting inexpensive scope from Siglent in the near future?

No you shouldn't!
It will set a new benchmark for bang-per-bandwidth.

Very excited to see what is coming, any clues you can give to time frame? I know you probably don't know/can't say.
Looking forward to seeing another oscilloscope review/teardown.
I'd been given a date of mid April but that was before Dave was asked to can his teardown of it.....trying to get some update on that date ATM.
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Offline pieman103021

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2017, 01:20:53 am »
Can we take it there is no longer going to be an interesting inexpensive scope from Siglent in the near future?

No you shouldn't!
It will set a new benchmark for bang-per-bandwidth.

Very excited to see what is coming, any clues you can give to time frame? I know you probably don't know/can't say.
Looking forward to seeing another oscilloscope review/teardown.
I'd been given a date of mid April but that was before Dave was asked to can his teardown of it.....trying to get some update on that date ATM.

Cool, thanks. Any reason he was asked not to do the teardown? Or did you mean for the version they aren't releasing?
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Offline NA5WH

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2017, 01:33:33 am »
Lovely repair. I saw something on the front board early in the video, but thought it was just your contact cleaner or something like that.. always hard to tell.

Definitely there are those days I want to try my luck at an ebay find... mostly a spectrum analyzer...  but have a few other non-electronics things I have to finish up before thinking about that.
 

Offline Muxr

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2017, 02:28:05 am »
Nice repair Dave! Looks like all the faults came from a physical shock.. like the scope was dropped or something.. probably caused both the hybrid ceramic to break and the front panel PCB to break as well.

I have the older HP54610B (20ms/s but still pretty nice for repetitive signals).

One thing I must say about these scopes is they absolutely have a lovely UI and controls. I wish modern scopes were this streamlined, but it's absolutely a breeze investigating random signals with these scopes.

Also a missed opportunity.. you could have played some Tetris on the scope (easter egg in firmware).
 

Online tautech

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2017, 02:41:39 am »
Can we take it there is no longer going to be an interesting inexpensive scope from Siglent in the near future?

No you shouldn't!
It will set a new benchmark for bang-per-bandwidth.

Very excited to see what is coming, any clues you can give to time frame? I know you probably don't know/can't say.
Looking forward to seeing another oscilloscope review/teardown.
I'd been given a date of mid April but that was before Dave was asked to can his teardown of it.....trying to get some update on that date ATM.

Cool, thanks. Any reason he was asked not to do the teardown? Or did you mean for the version they aren't releasing?
Dave's done the teardown and the vid is in the can, he's been asked to keep it there until further notice.
All are tight lipped as to what's going on so all we can do is wait.  :(

I got sent a couple of comparison pdf's, one against the new KS and the other against a GW.
When I get some time to check their accuracy they might be worth posting, but probably in a new thread for the X-E.
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Offline coppice

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2017, 06:08:41 am »
Can we take it there is no longer going to be an interesting inexpensive scope from Siglent in the near future?

No you shouldn't!
It will set a new benchmark for bang-per-bandwidth.

Very excited to see what is coming, any clues you can give to time frame? I know you probably don't know/can't say.
Looking forward to seeing another oscilloscope review/teardown.
I'd been given a date of mid April but that was before Dave was asked to can his teardown of it.....trying to get some update on that date ATM.

Cool, thanks. Any reason he was asked not to do the teardown? Or did you mean for the version they aren't releasing?
Dave's done the teardown and the vid is in the can, he's been asked to keep it there until further notice.
All are tight lipped as to what's going on so all we can do is wait.  :(

I got sent a couple of comparison pdf's, one against the new KS and the other against a GW.
When I get some time to check their accuracy they might be worth posting, but probably in a new thread for the X-E.
Are we still talking about the SDS1000X-E series, or is it now the SDS1000X-C which seems to be around in China?
 

Offline bulltza

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2017, 07:23:55 am »
 :-+ Nice repair but I miss seeing it at the end mounted and cleaned!, while watching the video I could not resist the feeling of having to clean it...

Maybe you can try to open the can of the ADC and solder somehow those pads. For sure being the signal input of the ADC it will affect somehow, but for low speed signals it would work nicely if you manage to not break it more. I think at least I would give it a try!

We want more repair videos  ;D (yeah whatever the statistics say)

BTW my first post in the forum, being watching EEVblog videos for the last year I finally decided to post something  :)
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 07:26:41 am by bulltza »
 

Online tautech

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2017, 08:12:43 am »
Can we take it there is no longer going to be an interesting inexpensive scope from Siglent in the near future?

No you shouldn't!
It will set a new benchmark for bang-per-bandwidth.

Very excited to see what is coming, any clues you can give to time frame? I know you probably don't know/can't say.
Looking forward to seeing another oscilloscope review/teardown.
I'd been given a date of mid April but that was before Dave was asked to can his teardown of it.....trying to get some update on that date ATM.

Cool, thanks. Any reason he was asked not to do the teardown? Or did you mean for the version they aren't releasing?
Dave's done the teardown and the vid is in the can, he's been asked to keep it there until further notice.
All are tight lipped as to what's going on so all we can do is wait.  :(

I got sent a couple of comparison pdf's, one against the new KS and the other against a GW.
When I get some time to check their accuracy they might be worth posting, but probably in a new thread for the X-E.
Are we still talking about the SDS1000X-E series, or is it now the SDS1000X-C which seems to be around in China?
Both are available in China, I've asked about the C and been told to ignore it for western markets.
So I guess it will be the X-E....further improved from the little info I've been fed.  :(
Dave probably knows more than what's been shared with me.  :-X
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Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2017, 08:51:27 am »
Can we take it there is no longer going to be an interesting inexpensive scope from Siglent in the near future?
No you shouldn't!
It will set a new benchmark for bang-per-bandwidth.

Very excited to see what is coming, any clues you can give to time frame? I know you probably don't know/can't say.

Less than a month.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2017, 09:03:23 am »
Both are available in China, I've asked about the C and been told to ignore it for western markets.
So I guess it will be the X-E....further improved from the little info I've been fed.  :(
Dave probably knows more than what's been shared with me.  :-X

Given that I have supposedly the only 1000X-E in the wild in the world, I'd say that's likely  :P
I will be getting the actual new final release model end of this week/early next week.
They are making an interesting move, the base model comes kicking and screaming out of the box.
I have not seen any marketing material for the new revised model though and how they will approach that in terms of marketing the new move.
 

Offline pieman103021

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2017, 11:53:58 am »
Can we take it there is no longer going to be an interesting inexpensive scope from Siglent in the near future?
No you shouldn't!
It will set a new benchmark for bang-per-bandwidth.

Very excited to see what is coming, any clues you can give to time frame? I know you probably don't know/can't say.

Less than a month.
Awesome, thanks for the response, looking forward to seeing it.
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Offline ghpicard

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2017, 07:32:41 pm »
Great vid, Dave!
   I happened to buy an HP 54616B almost a month ago and the one you repaired is very similar to one I saw as sold for parts by a guy/company from Israel (that cloud plus lightning bolt stenciled to the case is not something one sees everyday).
I still didn't receive mine but the video eased up my mind regarding to repairability and ease of access to spare parts.
 

Offline bryanrj1

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2017, 08:23:07 pm »
Another excellent repair video. It seems like it's a long time between videos of this caliber. Keep up the good work.
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Online snoopy

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2017, 04:56:52 am »
The 1NB7-8353 ADC hybrid is also used in the HP 16534A scope card in their modular logic analyzer line.  I recently repaired a couple of them and one had a bad hybrid.

Of course I couldn't resist taking the top off.  Photo below.  I cracked the substrate in the process and also had to use quite a bit of heat.  Some of the caps might have reflowed and shifted a bit.

You can clearly see the ADC on the right and the 32k circular buffer memory on the left.  Someone already pointed out the piece that cracked off on Dave's was the input transmission line which you can see here goes directly to the ADC.


I bought a couple of ADC replacements from the $45 guy on ebay, watronics.  He's a retired HP/Agilent scope engineer and a nice guy.  No affiliation; just a satisfied customer.
I wonder if there is any way to build an equivalent circuit using modern parts on the same footprint with FR4 substrate material?

Probably no which is why the low end scope manufacturers have not been able to offer something economical in the 500 MHz and above category ;)
If it needs an exotic substrate, it's not a big deal as it could be a small sub-board.
The reason we don't see cheap 500MHz+ scopes is very few people need them. Probing is also an issue.

Hi Mike

If you are probing around slow peripherals on a parallel data bus which shares the bus with fast SDRAM or DDR ram which gets clocked at 100MHz or more then you need at least 500MHz and preferably 1GHz bandwidth so you can see if there are any data bus contentions ;)  From what I can see most of the low end scopes build their front end attenuators directly onto the same PCB as the rest of the system presumably to save cost. When you step up to custom hybrids built on ceramics the cost of the scope goes up dramatically along with the cost of the faster ADC's ;) Of course perhaps economies of scale could come into it and some chinese company may role their own hybrids in the future to compete with the big boys ;)

cheers
 

Online snoopy

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2017, 04:59:39 am »
Has anyone see the ebay auction for one of these ? Looks like Dave may have stirred up some interest on these scopes ;)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-AGILENT-KEYSIGHT-54616B-500-MHZ-2GSa-s-OSCILLOSCOPE-1ns-PEAK-DETECT-/401296284131
 

Offline mmagin

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2017, 05:44:00 am »
Has anyone see the ebay auction for one of these ? Looks like Dave may have stirred up some interest on these scopes ;)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-AGILENT-KEYSIGHT-54616B-500-MHZ-2GSa-s-OSCILLOSCOPE-1ns-PEAK-DETECT-/401296284131

Its like surplus rubidium references all over again!  :)
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2017, 12:57:21 pm »
 Bidding on that one was around $200 when I checked while in the middle of watching Dave's video. I guess that answers your question about 'stirring up interest' because I can't be the only one who checked to see if any were available. There are others. For MUCH higher prices.

 

Offline jnissen

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2017, 08:19:16 pm »
No hurt trying to repair that ceramic module. As can be seen from the de-capped unit there are vias and plenty of trace for the grounds. The inner signal likely can be bridged as well. Nothing to lose. Use a bit of heat and carefully pry that lid off. Give it a try. Worst case we all make fun of you for trying!  :-BROKE
 

Offline ghpicard

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #47 on: March 30, 2017, 05:02:51 am »
Well I got mine from the same seller for 167 USD plus S&H just a month ago. It sometimes happens that people is not interested at the moment you buy, but Dave's directions regarding to go only for this model on the specific scope line, plus his implicit back to its capabilities at the beginning of the video could have definitely stirred up the interest. If it were me, I would let a couple months go by before trying again. People also loses the interest if not stirred often :)
 

Offline EEngo

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2017, 07:52:34 pm »
What a lovely repair video!  :-+

+1 for a quick try to open the broken module and connecting something like a RG174 to see the difference in performance compared to the original channel. This could be the first step into some high frequency stuff  8)

 

Offline EEngo

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Re: EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2017, 06:27:54 pm »

just for fun with a 54616B:

sine wave with 1,2 GHz and still triggering ... :-+ :)

ingo.

 


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