EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on April 04, 2017, 01:02:47 am
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Teardown of the new *unreleased* Siglent SDS1202X-E 200MHz $379 oscilloscope!
NOTE: This is the 100MHz 1102E which will never be released, but it's the same hardware.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slBXLf4YKtA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slBXLf4YKtA)
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This might inspire the Rigol to release something new maybe?
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Thanks, I'm thrilled about this. I hope you do a performance review, especially fft. I have been holding off buying a digital scope since the usually recommended rigol is getting "old"
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200 MHz bandwith, serial decoding (incl. CAN!) as standard, better FFT and probably faster responding as the 1054z - that all together for US 379$.
WOW! Very impressive! That´s really hard to beat!
Seems, the only leftover advantage of the Rigol 1054z is: It has four channels...
(Imagine a 1204X-S for US 399$)
Let´s hope, they don´t weaken with the firmware.
Obviously: Time for the next move of Rigol. In the meantime:
I am really looking forward to the review of the 1202X-E. :popcorn:
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Only 2 relays on the front end as the X-E doesn't have a 50 \$\Omega\$ input AFAIK, only 1 M.
The mainboard is very much the same size as the C*L and Plus models.
PSU looks exactly the same as used in C*L models too and BTW I've not heard of any Siglent DSO PSU failures despite what you always mention of the caps used in Siglent PSU's. :horse:
How long have they been using Leylon ? I think at least since the first teardowns you did, probably longer so they can't be that bad or Siglent would've moved to another brand.
Notice Siglent roll their own PSU, not some off the shelf item that they can't maintain the spec and QC of.
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PA
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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this might sound like a stupid question but how can you decode spi with 2 inputs only?
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dave, /bin/ash is the busybox shell - you've got superuser access right into the linux environment there - woohoo!
where's the dump though?
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Definitely a great moment now to see the competing parties raising up their bet on entry level scopes. :clap:
We as the potential customers are winning.
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this might sound like a stupid question but how can you decode spi with 2 inputs only?
You would only get one direction, and it'd cover all devices, but a CLK/DATA pair seems like something you could make use of.
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It looks nice, much cleaner front panel than the ugly Rigol stuff. The lack of rust inside is encouraging. Hopefully that is consistent and not that Dave was just lucky or it was a special unit.
I wish the manufacturers would get away from the nursery school color schemes though. Are the only trace color options really yellow and pink? Something wrong with the traditional blue-green of crt scopes?
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It looks nice, much cleaner front panel than the ugly Rigol stuff. The lack of rust inside is encouraging. Hopefully that is consistent and not that Dave was just lucky or it was a special unit.
I wish the manufacturers would get away from the nursery school color schemes though. Are the only trace color options really yellow and pink? Something wrong with the traditional blue-green of crt scopes?
Blue and green are the colours for ch 3 and 4 on Siglent DSO's. ;)
Until I get one in my hot hands I think the case is very similar to the existing C*L and Plus models and while I'm guessing probably part of the reason they have kept the price down by not having to rework the case.
I'll grab a CML Plus and compare it against the front and rear shots early in the vid.
Nah, the power button is bottom left, not a push button switch on top of the case like the C*L models.
Option buttons are below the display not on the right of the display like C*L models and this configuration brings it into line with most other Siglent DSO's.
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Notice Siglent roll their own PSU, not some off the shelf item that they can't maintain the spec and QC of.
I don't want to derail but that is a slightly surprising and suspiciously silly slippery slope argument. It's not like they depend on the performance of any other third party components in this design amirite?
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Notice Siglent roll their own PSU, not some off the shelf item that they can't maintain the spec and QC of.
I don't want to derail but that is a slightly surprising and suspiciously silly slippery slope argument. It's not like they depend on the performance of any other third party components in this design amirite?
Only offered as an observation.
Over the years there have been a # of threads here with failures of scope PSU's, in many cases they have not been made by the scope manufacturer. Could you call this modus operandi a weak link ? I do.
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this might sound like a stupid question but how can you decode spi with 2 inputs only?
SPI is usually, Clock, Data and Chip Select. You only need clock and data to decode SPI.
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200 MHz bandwith, serial decoding (incl. CAN!) as standard, better FFT and probably faster responding as the 1054z - that all together for US 379$.
WOW! Very impressive! That´s really hard to beat!
Seems, the only leftover advantage of the Rigol 1054z is: It has four channels...
(Imagine a 1204X-S for US 399$)
Let´s hope, they don´t weaken with the firmware.
Obviously: Time for the next move of Rigol. In the meantime:
I am really looking forward to the review of the 1202X-E. :popcorn:
hopefully they'd add MSO capability to ext trigger. i'm sure it has to be sampled at the same rate as the analog channels anyway
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Notice Siglent roll their own PSU, not some off the shelf item that they can't maintain the spec and QC of.
I don't want to derail but that is a slightly surprising and suspiciously silly slippery slope argument. It's not like they depend on the performance of any other third party components in this design amirite?
Only offered as an observation.
Over the years there have been a # of threads here with failures of scope PSU's, in many cases they have not been made by the scope manufacturer. Could you call this modus operandi a weak link ? I do.
People who do one thing tend to get really good at it. As long as you avoid the cowboy suppliers, a PSU from a specialist is likely to give far better results than one designed in house as a side line. Also, if a commercially available supply is used, its generally cheap and simple to replace.
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this might sound like a stupid question but how can you decode spi with 2 inputs only?
SCLK, and MISO or MISO (take your pick), CS is done with timeout.
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dave, /bin/ash is the busybox shell - you've got superuser access right into the linux environment there - woohoo!
where's the dump though?
I'll dump the final production 200MHz model, it's on the Fedex truck.
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PA
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Maybe soon I've been hinted, shhh don't tell everyone. ;)
But I think it will be an option. :(
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When will the scope actually be available? I'm in the market for a new scope sometime in the next couple months and this one seems pretty nice for the price. It seems like the -E version isn't actually available yet. I was getting worried seeing only $550+ scopes on Amazon.
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They should really allow Triger when using serial decoding!
Alexander.
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Finally a board design that does not look as being stolen from elswhere on Shenzhen Wednesday.
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If the release version works as advertised this will be great value :-+ Cheaper then decode options on some scopes :palm:
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On that log 2nd HC595 failed.. maybe it's duplicate init code from a 4 channel unit? Could be driving the NEC relay's.
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Nice review. I find the multi-layer board completely mind boggling. Is that routed by human, computer or magic? It's also completely awesome that those many layer boards are becoming such commodities.
As far as the scope is concerned it is looking like interesting times... just need some manufacturer to have 4 channels for the price of 2 with serial decode and I'll be up for an upgrade (almost tempted for the Rigol but it is starting to look like an old model now).
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R185, Why is this oversized novelty resistor doing in the oscillator over-thruster ?
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The capacitors in the power supply have that white goo over their vents.
Is this o.k? Will the vents still work?
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Cheaper then decode options on some scopes :palm:
Maybe this will the the straw that breaks that particular camel's back.
(Fingers crossed...)
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What a boring scope!
Already comes with full bandwidth, serial decoding is included, UART connector nice and easy, just waiting to be plugged, console that boot into root shell
Nothing left to hack :-//
:-+ to Siglent
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I'm happy with my purchase back in late '15, but I've kept my eye on scopes with the thought of "what scope would I buy right now if I was in the market for my first scope". Answer has stayed 1054 for a long time, but I'm thinking it just changed.
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I can see it taking quite a few sales away from Rigol at that price, even with only two channels.
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Could they have put the caps in the power supply any nearer to the heat sink?
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Notice Siglent roll their own PSU, not some off the shelf item that they can't maintain the spec and QC of.
I don't want to derail but that is a slightly surprising and suspiciously silly slippery slope argument. It's not like they depend on the performance of any other third party components in this design amirite?
Only offered as an observation.
Over the years there have been a # of threads here with failures of scope PSU's, in many cases they have not been made by the scope manufacturer. Could you call this modus operandi a weak link ? I do.
That is mainly due to way more units sold and older equipment. Rolling your own PSU is just a waste of resources and there are many ways to screw up reliability (like having electrolytics close to heatsinks as seen on the video). Also it will be easier to get a replacement for a generic PSU than a proprietary one.
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When will the scope actually be available?
To dealers in the next week or two, then with the time to have them shipped some of us should have them before the end of this month.
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Hi. I have two questions related to the PSU :
- Why do we have two six pins (usually they are 4 pins) optocouplers ? Isn't one enough ?
- What is the purpose of the two mosfets (with big heatsinks) on the left side (low voltage board side) ? The one on the right (high voltage board) is acting as a switch for the SMPS I presume.
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- Why do we have two optocouplers ? Isn't one enough ?
A little tip. See the directions of information transfer.
;)
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- Why do we have two optocouplers ? Isn't one enough ?
A little tip. See the directions of information transfer.
;)
I doubt it - normally only one signal, sensing the secondary regulated voltage, crosses the barrier back to the primary-side control IC. The second optoisolator is probably carrying the 'line trigger' signal from primary side to secondary side.
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- Why do we have two optocouplers ? Isn't one enough ?
A little tip. See the directions of information transfer.
;)
I doubt it - ....
The second optoisolator is probably carrying the 'line trigger' signal from primary side to secondary side.
This is not information transfer??
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- Why do we have two optocouplers ? Isn't one enough ?
A little tip. See the directions of information transfer.
;)
I doubt it - ....
The second optoisolator is probably carrying the 'line trigger' signal from primary side to secondary side.
This is not information transfer??
Certainly it is; but it is not, as the original question asks, 'part of the PSU', even though it is on the PSU PWA.
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You had a full blown shell on the prompt there, ash is the shell. Try run some of the following to get some interesting information out:
cat /proc/cpuinfo
cat /proc/meminfo
And you can list all the files, provided it has the tool installed
find /
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You had a full blown shell on the prompt there, ash is the shell. Try run some of the following to get some interesting information out:
cat /proc/cpuinfo
cat /proc/meminfo
From the video:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-985-siglent-sds1202x-e-oscilloscope-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=305745;image)
And you can list all the files, provided it has the tool installed
find /
It also has the OS, kernel version, etc.
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You had a full blown shell on the prompt there, ash is the shell. Try run some of the following to get some interesting information out:
cat /proc/cpuinfo
cat /proc/meminfo
From the video:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-985-siglent-sds1202x-e-oscilloscope-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=305745;image)
And you can list all the files, provided it has the tool installed
find /
It also has the OS, kernel version, etc.
1) they were examples
2) cpuinfo will show more then the boot up, such as supported feature set
3) meminfo will show how much memory the OS is consuming
4) find will list all files, among which some will stand out as custom things silent have written and might make for an interesting peek at.
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Hi Dave,
you may also try the commands "mount" and "df" while a USB memory stick is connected. This way you can find out where it is mounted and than you can copy config files from the Scope to the stick for further external investigation.
For example with
cp -R /etc /whatever-path-the USB-drive-is-mounted-toyou could copy the entire /etc directory to the stick.
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BTW hopefully the scope comes with the necessary GNU license and an offer to receive the source code of the GPL-licensed parts, which it won't spill all the secret Siglent sauce but it could reveal something interesting anyway.
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Rigol Should build a 4 channel one using similar hardware to this, why they did not do it 4 channel, they have the ADC and the ZYNQ, they just needed to add the front end |O
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Nice review. I find the multi-layer board completely mind boggling. Is that routed by human, computer or magic? It's also completely awesome that those many layer boards are becoming such commodities.
They're not that hard to make...
There are much more complex boards in your computer and phone. They've been relatively low cost, commodity items for many years.
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Nice review. I find the multi-layer board completely mind boggling. Is that routed by human, computer or magic? It's also completely awesome that those many layer boards are becoming such commodities.
They're not that hard to make...
The whole point of having more layers is to make it easier to route.
Can't find a route for a wire? Add another layer! :popcorn:
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... beats a bodge wire any day of the week - and twice on Sundays!
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Rigol Should build a 4 channel one using similar hardware to this, why they did not do it 4 channel, they have the ADC and the ZYNQ, they just needed to add the front end |O
at a $370 that's a tall order. You'd need another dual channel 1GSPS ADC ($100-$200 itself) and 2 front ends to make a four channel scope.
I think if Siglent offered a similar four channel 200MHz scope for less than $500 (or even slightly above), they'd obliterated the ciompetition (e.g. DS1104Z)
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I think if Siglent offered a similar four channel 200MHz scope for less than $500 (or even slightly above), they'd obliterated the ciompetition (e.g. DS1104Z)
With serial decoders, etc., included? They'd own the market up to $2000+.
(which is why it won't ever happen)
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According to the datasheet, serial decoders are included as standadrd
https://mediacdn.eu/m/media/wysiwyg/siglent/Downloads/DataSheet/SDS1000X-E%20SpecSheet.pdf
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at a $370 that's a tall order. You'd need another dual channel 1GSPS ADC ($100-$200 itself) and 2 front ends to make a four channel scope.
I think if Siglent offered a similar four channel 200MHz scope for less than $500 (or even slightly above), they'd obliterated the ciompetition (e.g. DS1104Z)
I think the ADC inside was 4 channel already!?
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makes me wonder if this is usable?
The new math co-processor enables FFT analysis of incoming signals
using up to 1M samples per waveform. This provides high frequency
resolution with a fast refresh rate. The FFT function also supports a
variety of window functions so that it can adapt to different spectrum
measurement needs.
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Thread to recent discussions of SDS1202X-E
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds1000x-e-oscilloscope-based-on-xilinx-zynq-7000-soc-architecture/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds1000x-e-oscilloscope-based-on-xilinx-zynq-7000-soc-architecture/)
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Hi, why costs this scope $379.00 in America, and € 434,39 in Europe ?, even while the euro is worth more then a dollar.
Always the same story for many products, i want the same price!, if i order from USA i have no warranty normally.
$379.00 : http://www.saelig.com/product/sds1202x-e.htm (http://www.saelig.com/product/sds1202x-e.htm)
€ 434,39 : http://www.eleshop.nl/siglent-sds1202x-e.html (http://www.eleshop.nl/siglent-sds1202x-e.html)
And howcome its discontinued at this site ?, its a new scope :
http://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=sds1202x-s&guid=9c60417bc1b04066aea4b9cca05f7a03&s=1&F_Suggestions=sds1202x-s&F_OriginalKeyword=SDS1202X-E (http://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=sds1202x-s&guid=9c60417bc1b04066aea4b9cca05f7a03&s=1&F_Suggestions=sds1202x-s&F_OriginalKeyword=SDS1202X-E)
That says something right ?
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......
And howcome its discontinued at this site ?, its a new scope :
http://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=sds1202x-s&guid=9c60417bc1b04066aea4b9cca05f7a03&s=1&F_Suggestions=sds1202x-s&F_OriginalKeyword=SDS1202X-E (http://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=sds1202x-s&guid=9c60417bc1b04066aea4b9cca05f7a03&s=1&F_Suggestions=sds1202x-s&F_OriginalKeyword=SDS1202X-E)
That says something right ?
That's the "-S" model. They don't have the -E, so it offered you that since it's close to your search.
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1) You should be aware that most US online shops list prices without tax (AFAIR because taxes are different for every state), while the price in Euro is with taxes. European price without taxes is 359,- €, so nothing to complain here ...
2) your Tequipment-Site lists results for SDS1202x-S, not for SDS1202X-E
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Ah thanks i see it now, u sure the USA shop is without tax ?, cant find it.
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Ah thanks i see it now, u sure the USA shop is without tax ?, cant find it.
Yeah, the US system is way to complicated. It's usually calculated at checkout.
Each state (and sometimes the county or city) have different rules on how much and if they need to collect it. When people mention that they ordered online to not pay sales tax, they are technically breaking the law (because you still "have" to pay it). The general rule is if you have a physical location in the state the store must collect the tax, and if the store does not collect then it's the purchasers responsibility to remit it to the state in their tax payment. So it depends on where they are and where they are shipping it to on if the store will collect it.
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And howcome its discontinued at this site ?, its a new scope :
http://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=sds1202x-s&guid=9c60417bc1b04066aea4b9cca05f7a03&s=1&F_Suggestions=sds1202x-s&F_OriginalKeyword=SDS1202X-E (http://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=sds1202x-s&guid=9c60417bc1b04066aea4b9cca05f7a03&s=1&F_Suggestions=sds1202x-s&F_OriginalKeyword=SDS1202X-E)
That says something right ?
It does.
TQ no longer have distribution rights for Siglent.
I don't know why and don't want to.
Politics I guess. :-//
Saelig have been doing a good job AFAIK and offer the same discounts for EEVblog members.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/equipment-discounts-from-saelig/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/equipment-discounts-from-saelig/)
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Some comments from the Xilinx forum:
https://forums.xilinx.com/t5/Xcell-Daily-Blog/Dave-Jones-tears-down-the-new-lt-400-Zynq-powered-Siglent/ba-p/758656
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PSU looks exactly the same as used in C*L models too and BTW I've not heard of any Siglent DSO PSU failures despite what you always mention of the caps used in Siglent PSU's. :horse:
Not really sure why Lelon Cap's get such a hard time here and are associated only with entry level 'B' brands. Had no issues with the Lelon Caps in a 13 year old Tek TDS2024. It failed due to a failure with the National Semi ADC.
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PSU looks exactly the same as used in C*L models too and BTW I've not heard of any Siglent DSO PSU failures despite what you always mention of the caps used in Siglent PSU's. :horse:
Not really sure why Lelon Cap's get such a hard time here and are associated only with entry level 'B' brands. Had no issues with the Lelon Caps in a 13 year old Tek TDS2024. It failed due to a failure with the National Semi ADC.
I've got a busted TDS2012B, a pin on one of the IC's got some contaminant on it and rotted through. >:(
Kept getting errors on boot and only found a tiny black spot on the pin but it was corroded right through.
As for the Siglent PSU's, they are designed but Siglent but contract manufactured for them.
Mainboards seem to have Nichicon's and the like but despite that the PSU's give zero problems that I know of.
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There's been new firmware released:
SDS1202X-E firmware update
Version 5.1.3.13
5.4 Mb
http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/SDS1000X-E_5.1.3.13.zip (http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/SDS1000X-E_5.1.3.13.zip)
Changelog
1. Cursor values not correct if probe attenuation was not set to 1X
2. Removed channel input impedance of 50?
3. Added external load setting to FFT menu. If using an external load, amplitudes can be shown in dBm
4. Repaired intermittent lock up after enabling decoding function
5. Optimized translation for German and English menus and pop messages
6. Removed Option label from UI
7. Corrected cursor measurements for active Zoom with FFT
8. Added telnet(port 5024) and open socket(port 5025) for LAN communication
9. Fixed blank zoom bug. With both channels at 2 ms/div, 7 Mpts, and a zoom of 500 ns/div, the zoom window would blank.
10. Fixed decode threshold levels for 10X probe attenuation selection.
11. Fixed average mode. After pressing [Run/Stop] to halt acquisition, the display changed to the last waveform, rather than maintaining the averaged waveform
12. Remain the final message for firmware update until rebooted
13. Fixed the issue with Chinese language setting after self- calibration.
14. Fixed the CAN source bug. If the source selected was CANH or CANL, decode would not work correctly.
15. Decreased waveform jitter with active measurements or math with horizontal delay out of the screen.
16. Added progress information while saving CSV files.
17. Fixed the Cycle RMS measurement does not update when the input signal changes
18. Keep “Print” picture type in accordance with the type selected from “Save/Recall”
19. Fixed user file renaming of a previously saved file.
20. Enabled decoding for time bases above 20ms/div.
21. Disable menu if cursors, measurement and math is disabled
22. Finished updates to support EasyScopeX and Labview driver.
23. Optimized channel self-calibration
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Anybody know if a competitor is about to blow them out of the water or if now is a good time to place my order for this scope?
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What an impressive scope!
I have waited a few months after Dave's video, but then jumped right in.
It's a very worthwhile replacement for my Siglent SDS1102CML.