EEVblog #986 - Mailbag

[EEVblog]

More mailbag!



SPOILERS:
Classic Handheld Defender Arcade Game Teardown!
Stemtera Arduino in a Breadboard
https://stemtera.com/
German Testo 760-3 Multimeter Teardown and Mini Review with temperature sensor.
+ Tesco Clamp Meter
https://www.testo.com/en-AU/testo-760-3/p/0590-7603
Non-Linear Systems Touch Test 20 Multiemter Teardown
Zilog Z80
Sony Clie Organiser
Magellan 310 GPS
Hioki OL-64 1966 analog multimeter teardown

[boffin]

Non-Linear went on to make a computer called the KayPro - an early CP/M system, and one of the early luggables (it's basically the computer that killed Osborne)

[Barny]

I knew it sounds funny for the english speaking folk.
But ther are many "bad" city's in Germany / Austria.

Bad means bath in english and indicates that in this town is a thermal bath.

An aditional info:
If you are in Germany or Austria and come around a town with "Hall" in theire name, there was / is a salt-mine.

[0xfede]

SGS is now STM and still has some fabs here in italy.
Wiki page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STMicroelectronics

PS: I love the vintage Arcade replica game, you lucky.

Cheers,
0xfede

[capt bullshot]

I knew it sounds funny for the english speaking folk.
But ther are many "bad" city's in Germany / Austria.

Yes, realized that "Bad" pronouncing right while watching the video. Otherwise "Bad whatever" is so common here, I'd never thought of it beeing pronounced in English.
There's another one: In the village I'm living, there's a quite common last name "Failing" - so common I never thought of pronouncing it in English. Until someone pointed out that "Restaurant Failing" is a rather funny name for someone not born here.

[Barny]

Near the town I grow up where villages called "Wankham" and "Sicking".
They had regulary bus loads of people, which stoped, took a photo with the village - sign and drove to the next village.

Here in Austria we have many villages with funny sounding names.

[rollatorwieltje]

I knew it sounds funny for the english speaking folk.
But ther are many "bad" city's in Germany / Austria.

Yes, realized that "Bad" pronouncing right while watching the video. Otherwise "Bad whatever" is so common here, I'd never thought of it beeing pronounced in English.
There's another one: In the village I'm living, there's a quite common last name "Failing" - so common I never thought of pronouncing it in English. Until someone pointed out that "Restaurant Failing" is a rather funny name for someone not born here.

Occasionally I see busses from this company: http://www.fuecker-busreisen.de/

They changed their spelling to Fuecker, but on some busses (including the one in their website header) it's still written as Fucker

[Stephan_T]

it's still written as Fucker

It is a bit hard to recognize, but it is Fücker and not Fucker.
As it is "Bad Homburg" and not "Bäd Hombörg".

[Avacee]

Keeping up with the F-word strand there is a town in Austria called "F**king".
This autumn I'll be going there with some friends for a backgammon tournament so we can play to win "The F**king Cup at the F**king Tournament" 

I loved the layout of the traces in the handheld arcade game - very artistic - much nicer looking than all these new fancy modern angles 
Never having done PCB layout is there a reason for such curves or why modern PCB's now seem to only use straight lines? (I assume software preference/the auto-router or is there a technical reason?)

[rrinker]

 Being in an area predominantly settled by Germans, many towns along the river are <something> Haven. (from hafen, or port)
One well know model railroad designer was famous for using pun names for the fictitious towns on his designs, and on one he had the town of Bee Haven. Which, he noted in the text description for the design, was famous for their annual beauty pageant to crown the next Miss Bee Haven.

[Windfall]

Which, he noted in the text description for the design, was famous for their annual beauty pageant to crown the next Miss Bee Haven.

Only biker chicks need apply.

[MobileWill]

Wow, a Sony Clie UX50. I have one that I was thinking of sending in. That thing what pretty sweet for it's time.

[ebastler]

I knew it sounds funny for the english speaking folk.
But ther are many "bad" city's in Germany / Austria.

Bad means bath in english and indicates that in this town is a thermal bath.

But I can see why "Bad Homburg" brings a chuckle -- with The Donald having made sure that everybody is aware of all those "bad hombres"... 

[f4eru]

For the NLS Moldymeder, the big electrolythic on a board with two spade connector wires is most probably mounted when the battery option is not at it's place. There's a big space for the battery, ans the same wire-spades probably connect to a Nicad battery.

The teflon isolated wires, teflon penetrators, wired relays, etc... are clearly done to minimize the leakage current !!
This is a neat quality design for the day, except for EMC, which was bad for every digital meter of the time.

For the generator torch, ikea has a neat one with supercap, which doesn't wear out and has a nice design.

[BU508A]

Wanna have a beer?



 

Wikipeda states:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fucking_Hell

Edit: Link to the picture

[joeqsmith]

Are there plans to do a full review of some of the new meters?   That first looks pretty bad.  I would be interested in knowing if the other one is similar in how it turns off.

[Paul Moir]

No UL on the Testo?  It's got CSA(C US) just like Fluke uses.  Cough.
I think the reason there's no REL mode on these is so that you can't make incorrect measurements accidentally.  I suspect the electrician oriented Fluke 17x series has no REL for the same reason:  it's been dumbed down.
Personally, I think not having a direct-from-power-on continuity check function in a field meter is a total fail.

[ebastler]

Are there plans to do a full review of some of the new meters?   That first looks pretty bad.  I would be interested in knowing if the other one is similar in how it turns off.

I think Dave should get back to this in another video, and test the meter which he had not torn apart before. He had pulled the test unit apart (further than one would have to even to change the fuses), and we can't exclude the possibility that this caused the strange behavior upon changing the probes. Dave briefly mentioned that possibility, but then kept ranting about the awkward behavior of the Testo meter.

Also, while I certainly prefer a rotary switch personally, there is no reason to nag about the pushbutton operation. They chose this for a reason (single-handed operation while you are holding the meter in one hand); this is a multimeter aimed at electricians in the field, after all.

I found Dave's approach quite unprofessional; he was potentially damaging the reputation of a quality brand for no good reason.

[capt bullshot]

No UL on the Testo?

For European manufacturers UL is nothing but a royal PITA. So if you don't plan to sell to USA, you skip it. Criteria on product safety according to European standards and UL are quite similar, reaching similar levels of safety, but different in many annoying details, so eventually you have the double amount of cost and effort to fulfil both. Some would call this protectionism ...

[RGB255_0_0]

No UL on the Testo?

For European manufacturers UL is nothing but a royal PITA. So if you don't plan to sell to USA, you skip it. Criteria on product safety according to European standards and UL are quite similar, reaching similar levels of safety, but different in many annoying details, so eventually you have the double amount of cost and effort to fulfil both. Some would call this protectionism ...

Pretty much. As long as you don't need to be UL listed for NFPA/NEC compliance then it's pointless going for VDE, CSA and UL.

[McBryce]

While we're on the subject of teaching Dave and the world some German. The "Ich bin ein Berliner" statement became famous because it DOESN'T mean "I am a Berliner", it means "I am a Jam Donut".

Ich bin Berliner = I am from Berlin.
Ich bin ein Berliner = I am a Jam Donut.

McBryce.

[ebastler]

While we're on the subject of teaching Dave and the world some German. The "Ich bin ein Berliner" statement became famous because it DOESN'T mean "I am a Berliner", it means "I am a Jam Donut".

Ich bin Berliner = I am from Berlin.
Ich bin ein Berliner = I am a Jam Donut.

McBryce.

That's an urban legend. Nobody was in nitpicking mode back then or misunderstood the statement, and I am pretty sure it became so well-known because the Berliners (and Germans in general) were genuinely touched by the token of solidarity.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner (German only, sorry)

[McBryce]

While we're on the subject of teaching Dave and the world some German. The "Ich bin ein Berliner" statement became famous because it DOESN'T mean "I am a Berliner", it means "I am a Jam Donut".

Ich bin Berliner = I am from Berlin.
Ich bin ein Berliner = I am a Jam Donut.

McBryce.

I know, but that doesn't make it any less funny and the urban legend is why most people still remember it.

McBryce.

That's an urban legend. Nobody was in nitpicking mode back then or misunderstood the statement, and I am pretty sure it became so well-known because the Berliners (and Germans in general) were genuinely touched by the token of solidarity.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner (German only, sorry)

[tszaboo]

Near the town I grow up where villages called "Wankham" and "Sicking".
They had regulary bus loads of people, which stoped, took a photo with the village - sign and drove to the next village.

Here in Austria we have many villages with funny sounding names.

Obligatory The Grand Tour:
https://youtu.be/deK_4ZZKfxg?t=56s
Safe for workspace.

[thm_w]

I think Dave should get back to this in another video, and test the meter which he had not torn apart before. He had pulled the test unit apart (further than one would have to even to change the fuses), and we can't exclude the possibility that this caused the strange behavior upon changing the probes. Dave briefly mentioned that possibility, but then kept ranting about the awkward behavior of the Testo meter.

Also, while I certainly prefer a rotary switch personally, there is no reason to nag about the pushbutton operation. They chose this for a reason (single-handed operation while you are holding the meter in one hand); this is a multimeter aimed at electricians in the field, after all.

I found Dave's approach quite unprofessional; he was potentially damaging the reputation of a quality brand for no good reason.

Agreed except for the last part, he's not an electrician and anything electrician oriented sent to the mailbag is open for flogging

[SeanB]

That microcontroller is a mask ROM Hitachi device, which was very common, a small microcontroller with integrated VFD drivers, and which was very common in VCR use as the system controller, doing everything in there from display, keyboard scanning ( using a resistive divider for the wired remote), IR receiver and driving the system all in the same small package. Runs off a 5V supply for the actual micro and a -26V supply for the VFD interface, and handled the scanning for the display all in one chip. Assorted ones all in almost the same package, with enough ROM to run quite a complex system, were all made by Hitachi.

[Paul Moir]

No UL on the Testo?

For European manufacturers UL is nothing but a royal PITA. So if you don't plan to sell to USA, you skip it. Criteria on product safety according to European standards and UL are quite similar, reaching similar levels of safety, but different in many annoying details, so eventually you have the double amount of cost and effort to fulfil both. Some would call this protectionism ...

It's got the CSA (C US) label.  That means that the Canadian Standards Association tested it for certification in the US and in Canada.  If you look at Fluke, they seem to use CSA most of the time.  UL and CSA agreed to cross certify many years ago.  And of course you can also use whatever accredited lab you wish, such as Intertek.

[Fungus]

I found Dave's approach quite unprofessional; he was potentially damaging the reputation of a quality brand for no good reason.

They sent it to him and Dave's motto/methods are well known. 

Having said that, he pointed out several times that he liked the overall design and that it appears to be a very well built, safety-oriented meter. It wasn't a negative review by any means, things like always starting up in AC mode is a plus for electricians.

[ebastler]

I found Dave's approach quite unprofessional; he was potentially damaging the reputation of a quality brand for no good reason.

They sent it to him and Dave's motto/methods are well known. 

Having said that, he pointed out several times that he liked the overall design and that it appears to be a very well built, safety-oriented meter. It wasn't a negative review by any means, things like always starting up in AC mode is a plus for electricians.

C'mon -- take it apart, put it back together (potentially not quite right), and then complain for minutes on end about some flaky behavior?!  Dave suspected that he might have messed with the meter during his teardown. So he should have tried the other meter they had sent, and if that works alright, should have scrapped the test footage from the one he messed up.

[Muttley Snickers]

I'm very interested to see how Testo responds to this mailbag video considering how they recently responded to another video which displayed that the relays incorporated in these meters may be prone to magnetic fields, in my opinion a company or manufacturer who makes a claim that their products are never at fault probably has their head stuck in a dark place and it does nothing more than show sign of a companies arrogance and ignorance, sorry but this attitude lost me as a potential customer.

Dave, If you happen to do a full review I would like to see this magnetic vulnerability further examined on these meters particularly when used in close proximity to coils, motors and other equipment that in normal operation would generate magnetic fields, also if internal shielding were added to these meters would it make any difference to their susceptibility.

Video Comment.




Testo Multimeter Fault.

[alho]

...then kept ranting...
I found Dave's approach quite unprofessional; he was potentially damaging the reputation of a quality brand for no good reason.

Yep. Thats what eevblog videos are these days. Zero Standby Power TV, Worlds shittiest tablet, Batterizer, Solar roadways  seems to be where Dave's channel is heading.  Long rants mocking something.

should have scrapped the test footage from the one he messed up.

Pushing out material that what makes the money, never mind the content. 


Touch Test 20 Multiemter. What a perfect item for it's own video. Multimetter thats not the standard single chip job nor an analog meter with resistor dividers, schematics and all.
But just look at this awful mess of bodge wires, obviously done by some moron.

[Fungus]

Solar roadways  seems to be where Dave's channel is heading.  Long rants mocking something.

...
EEVblog #978 - Keysight 1000X Hacking
EEVblog #980 - RoboMaid Automated Vacuum Cleaner Teardown
EEVblog #981 - Introduction To Digital Logic
EEVblog #982 - HP54616B 500MHz Oscilloscope REPAIR
EEVblog #983 - A Shocking Oscilloscope Problem ! aka Whack Triggering
EEVblog #984 - World's Best Dumpster Find!
EEVblog #985 - Siglent SDS1202X-E Oscilloscope Teardown

Yep, definitely looks that way.

NOT!

[Brumby]

It seems counting red lights is easier than counting green ones.

[McBryce]

It seems counting red lights is easier than counting green ones.

Well since Madagascar 2 we all know how to deal with red lights:



McBryce.

[joeqsmith]

I'm very interested to see how Testo responds to this mailbag video considering how they recently responded to another video which displayed that the relays incorporated in these meters may be prone to magnetic fields, in my opinion a company or manufacturer who makes a claim that their products are never at fault probably has their head stuck in a dark place and it does nothing more than show sign of a companies arrogance and ignorance, sorry but this attitude lost me as a potential customer.

Dave, If you happen to do a full review I would like to see this magnetic vulnerability further examined on these meters particularly when used in close proximity to coils, motors and other equipment that in normal operation would generate magnetic fields, also if internal shielding were added to these meters would it make any difference to their susceptibility.

Video Comment.

That's an interesting problem.  I didn't understand your comments as it appears they are saying the hanger could cause a problem.  I wonder if they mean they removed the strap, shortened it or did something else to solve it.   

I would be more concerned about how that meter was acting after it was taken apart.  For the time spent on the rant, would have rather opened a second meter, not take it apart and run it.  I am still waiting to find out if the $1100 Gossen Energy was a prototype with the tacked on axial resistor.   I wonder if the Gossen's relays will trip the same way.... 

[Fungus]

Really?

What was all that Fluke 12 nonsense about then?

[ebastler]

Those Fluke multimeters are not so "multi", since they can't measure current at all I believe?

[HKJ]

Those Fluke multimeters are not so "multi", since they can't measure current at all I believe?

But "Chauvin Arnoux" have a couple of DMM's without rotary switch in the MTX329x series

[rrinker]

 The Fluke 8060 doesn't have a rotary switch either... just sayin' 

[Cerebus]

I'm very interested to see how Testo responds to this mailbag video considering how they recently responded to another video which displayed that the relays incorporated in these meters may be prone to magnetic fields, in my opinion a company or manufacturer who makes a claim that their products are never at fault probably has their head stuck in a dark place and it does nothing more than show sign of a companies arrogance and ignorance, sorry but this attitude lost me as a potential customer.

I don't believe that you can have actually read the whole comment made by Testo. They acknowledge the problem and then go on to say:

The weak point has been identified and will be eliminated.

That sounds exactly the opposite to

[a] manufacturer who makes a claim that their products are never at fault

[Muttley Snickers]

First up Cerebus, congratulations on almost 1000 posts, just two more needed and you should have open access to the forbidden zone where all the special secret stuff is hidden away from those silly normal people.   

I don't believe that you can have actually read the whole comment made by Testo. They acknowledge the problem and then go on to say:

The weak point has been identified and will be eliminated.

I did in fact read their reply in it's entirety prior to posting, how Testo intend to rectify the issue shown in the video is anybody's guess as I found their reply rather vague and somewhat open to interpretation. As Joe pointed out earlier, they could simply shorten the hanging strap or do away with it altogether, my question related to whether other magnetic sources in close proximity affected the meter and how one would go about resolving such an issue.

In relation to other meters that do not have rotary dial selectors we did touch upon the subject once before in this thread linked below but I wouldn't know which meters have the specific ability to automatically change selection modes dependent or based on the applied input. I had also posted to link to the same Testo fault video in that thread as well but at the time it didn't receive as much attention as this time around. 

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/wanted-the-ultimate-multimeter-for-electricians-and-technicians/

[Cerebus]

First up Cerebus, congratulations on almost 1000 posts, just two more needed and you should have open access to the forbidden zone where all the special secret stuff is hidden away from those silly normal people.   

Seeing as it's you pointing this out Muttley, I have to ask:
Do I get a redalmedal?

[Muttley Snickers]

I never got a medal  ,  just a silly certificate.   

[rrinker]

 All I got was some silly t-shirt about negative feedback or something

But I paid for that 

[EEngo]

but the problem with relays and (neodym) magnets is quite interesting.
It's obvious of course but I am wondering which devices we will see failing next ... 

[Clear as mud]

I just saw this video recently, and noticed there's not much discussion here about the Nonlinear Systems Touch Test 20 DMM.  It was quite interesting (about 1/4 of the mailbag video was about it, from about 33 through 45 minutes).

Dave talks about its microcontroller brains at 40:04 through 40:35.  There are three rows of characters marked on the DIP-40 package.  Top line: 51-126.   Middle line: B8647-11.  Bottom line:8052, and some sort of logo, maybe Motorola.  Dave's first thought in the video was that the middle line of text was the model number of the chip.  My first thought was that it was the bottom line, an 8052 processor.  But, on the schematic at 44:32 through 44:42 in the video, the chip is labeled as 51-126 (the top line of text on the actual chip).

I'm thinking the 8052 printed on it is probably a date code.  Most of the components on the board lack date codes, but there are two other similar ones I saw - 8032 on the big blue resistor and something else similar on one of the logic chips after Dave pulls one of the boards out.  A web search does not initially reveal any microcontroller known as 51-126.  It might be part of the 8051 family of microcontrollers.

The logo on the chip is most visible at 40:09 to 40:11, but I still can't make it out,  It's very faded, and I'm not familiar enough with it to know for sure what it is.

At 43:25, "You'd get so excited if you had this back in 1981, let me tell you!  As long as you didn't open it."     Yeah, the PCB layout is pretty wacky.  It's like the company had one designer who had everyone else convinced he was the only one who could do it, but he had a lot of logical faults behind his decisions.